Fifh Session, 41st Parliament

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD)

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY, SECTION A

Virtual Meeting Tursday, July 16, 2020 Afernoon Meeting Issue No. 10

Presiding Ofcers:

RAJ CHOUHAN, DEPUTY SPEAKER

SPENCER CHANDRA HERBERT, DEPUTY CHAIR, COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

ISSN 2563-3511 PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Janet Austin, OBC

Fifth Session, 41st Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Darryl Plecas

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Carole James Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Training...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Attorney General...... Hon. , QC Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of State for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens’ Services...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ...... Hon. Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy...... Hon. Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ...... Hon. Doug Donaldson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Minister of Jobs, Economic Development and Competitiveness...... Hon. Michelle Mungall Minister of State for Trade...... Hon. Minister of Labour ...... Hon. Minister of Mental Health and Addictions...... Hon. Judy Darcy Minister of Municipal Afairs and Housing...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction...... Hon. Shane Simpson Minister of Tourism, Arts and Culture...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon. Claire Trevena

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Ofcial Opposition...... , QC Leader of the Tird Party ...... Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Simon Gibson Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel...... Seunghee Suzie Seo Clerk Assistant, Parliamentary Services...... Artour Sogomonian Clerk Assistant, Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ...... Susan Sourial Senior Research Analyst...... Jennifer Arril Senior Research Analyst...... Karan Riarh Acting Sergeant-at-Arms...... Greg Nelson ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Penticton Abbotsford-Mission...... Simon Gibson Bains, Hon. Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford South...... Hon. Darryl Plecas Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Abbotsford West...... Michael de Jong, QC Beare, Hon. Lisa (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Boundary-Similkameen...... Linda Larson Begg, Garry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Guildford Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Hon. Anne Kang Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal)...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Katrina Chen Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Burnaby North ...... Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal)...... Surrey South Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Donna Barnett Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... Vancouver–West End Cariboo North...... Chen, Hon. Katrina (NDP)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Chilliwack ...... John Martin Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack-Kent ...... Laurie Troness Chow, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fraserview Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Joan Isaacs Coleman, Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Langley East Coquitlam-Maillardville ...... Hon. Selina Robinson Conroy, Hon. Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Courtenay-Comox...... Ronna-Rae Leonard Darcy, Hon. Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Cowichan Valley ...... Davies, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Delta North...... de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West ...... Ian Paton Dean, Mitzi (NDP)...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Esquimalt-Metchosin ...... D’Eith, Bob (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola ...... Dix, Hon. Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Tompson ...... Donaldson, Hon. Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Tompson...... Eby, Hon. David, QC (NDP)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission ...... Steve Tomson Farnworth, Hon. Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kelowna West ...... Fleming, Hon. Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay East...... Foster, Eric (BC Liberal)...... Vernon-Monashee Kootenay West...... Hon. Katrine Conroy Fraser, Hon. Scott (NDP) ...... Mid Island–Pacifc Rim Langford–Juan de Fuca ...... Hon. John Horgan Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) ...... Cowichan Valley Langley ...... Mary Polak Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Langley East...... Glumac, Rick (NDP)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Maple Ridge–Mission...... Bob D’Eith Heyman, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Hon. Lisa Beare Horgan, Hon. John (NDP) ...... Langford–Juan de Fuca Mid Island–Pacifc Rim...... Hon. Scott Fraser Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Nanaimo...... Isaacs, Joan (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... James, Hon. Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Nechako Lakes...... Johal, Jas (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Queensborough Nelson-Creston ...... Hon. Michelle Mungall Kahlon, Ravi (NDP)...... Delta North New Westminster...... Hon. Judy Darcy Kang, Hon. Anne (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake North Coast ...... Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal)...... Shuswap North Island...... Hon. Claire Trevena Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Lee, Michael (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Tornthwaite Leonard, Ronna-Rae (NDP) ...... Courtenay-Comox Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Parksville-Qualicum...... Michelle Stilwell Ma, Bowinn (NDP)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Peace River North ...... Malcolmson, Sheila (NDP) ...... Nanaimo Peace River South ...... Mark, Hon. Melanie (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Penticton ...... Martin, John (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack Port Coquitlam...... Hon. Mike Farnworth Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–North Tompson Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Mungall, Hon. Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Mackenzie...... Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Prince George–Valemount ...... Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)...... Saanich North and the Islands Richmond North Centre...... Paton, Ian (BC Liberal)...... Delta South Richmond-Queensborough...... Jas Johal Plecas, Hon. Darryl (Ind.)...... Abbotsford South Richmond South Centre ...... Linda Reid Polak, Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Richmond-Steveston ...... John Yap Popham, Hon. Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Saanich North and the Islands ...... Adam Olsen Ralston, Hon. Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich South ...... Hon. Lana Popham Redies, Tracy (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Shuswap...... Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond South Centre Skeena...... Rice, Jennifer (NDP)...... North Coast Stikine...... Hon. Doug Donaldson Robinson, Hon. Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Marvin Hunt Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal)...... Skeena Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Routledge, Janet (NDP)...... Burnaby North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Guildford...... Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Newton...... Hon. Harry Bains Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Surrey-Panorama ...... Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey South ...... Simpson, Hon. Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Whalley ...... Hon. Bruce Ralston Sims, Jinny (NDP)...... Surrey-Panorama Surrey–White Rock ...... Tracy Redies Singh, Rachna (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. George Heyman Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna West Vancouver–False Creek...... Sam Sullivan Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal)...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fraserview...... Hon. George Chow Stone, Todd (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–South Tompson Vancouver-Hastings ...... Hon. Shane Simpson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Kensington...... Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kingsway...... Hon. Adrian Dix Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Langara...... Michael Lee Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Hon. Melanie Mark Tomson, Steve (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Point Grey ...... Hon. David Eby, QC Tornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver-Quilchena...... Andrew Wilkinson, QC Troness, Laurie (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack-Kent Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Trevena, Hon. Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vernon-Monashee ...... Eric Foster Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond North Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Hon. Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake...... Hon. Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano...... Ralph Sultan Yap, John (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky......

Party Standings: BC Liberal 42; NDP 41; Independent 2; BC Green Party 2

CONTENTS

Tursday, July 16, 2020 Afernoon Meeting Page

Committee of Supply

Proceedings in Section A ...... 165 Estimates: Ministry of Agriculture (continued) I. Paton Hon. L. Popham M. de Jong S. Furstenau A. Olsen B. Stewart J. Tornthwaite S. Tomson J. Johal D. Barnett C. Oakes M. Stilwell

165

THURSDAY, JULY 16, 2020 Projects Coalition, the Federation of Community Social Services, SUCCESS and Creative B.C. Te committee met at 1:32 p.m. Representing over 60,000 farmers in British Columbia is the British Columbia Agriculture Council. Why in the [M. Dean in the chair.] world wouldn’t the B.C. Ag Council be representing agri- culture on the Premier’s economic recovery task force? Committee of Supply Hon. L. Popham: Tank you for the question. Proceedings in Section A Many of the concerns and challenges that have been felt through the pandemic by the agriculture, fsh and food ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE processing sector have been brought to us because my (continued) ministry has been hard at work making sure we’ve made contact with people over the last three months. As I said On Vote 13: ministry operations, $77,261,000 earlier, there have been well over 6,000 contacts made in (continued). my ministry. We are aware of the challenges. Tis is being passed Te Chair: I’d like to start by recognizing that I’m through the economic recovery task force. I also have my speaking to you today from the traditional territory of the executive…. My deputy is also working on a deputy’s com- Lək̓ ʷəŋin̓ əŋ-speaking people, now known as the Songhees mittee which is passing that information through to the and Esquimalt Nations. I’m very honoured and privileged Premier’s economic recovery task force. to do my work here and also to represent them in the Legislature. I. Paton: I’d like to move on now to some housing issues We’re meeting today to continue consideration of the regarding Bill 52. I must say that in the last year, if I estimates of the Ministry of Agriculture. had a dollar for every phone call and every email I’ve Minister, do you have any opening remarks? received from farmers, ranchers and rural property own- ers throughout this province, I’d be very wealthy. Tis is a Hon. L. Popham: No, I don’t. I am just looking forward huge issue. to continuing the process. I want to quote the Minister of Agriculture from CBC radio’s B.C. Today. “If a family needs an additional home, I. Paton: To start of afer lunch today, I would just like even three additional homes, to support their farming to read out a quote from the minister, as a reminder to the operation, they are very welcome to apply to the Agricul- minister, as a reminder of what is applicable to my ques- tural Land Commission. If the commission sees that the tioning in the Ministry of Agriculture budget estimates. application is being made within agricultural lands and the Her colleague the hon. Finance Minister delivered the additional residents are there to support the farming oper- following statement into Hansard on Tuesday, June 23: “As ation, they will approve those applications.”Te minister is I said that day when those dollars passed, we are account- suggesting that if a family needs an additional home, even able for every dollar of that $5 billion. Te members know three…. Tat would be four homes on a rural property or that. Tey know they have an opportunity here, in estim- a farm, which, to me, is unheard of. ates, during this session to debate those dollars. Each of My question to the minister is: considering she is sug- the ministers who have individual programs will be gesting you could actually have four homes on a farm, how responsible.” many applications have been approved through the ALC Moving on, I would like to revisit the minister’s com- for such a thing — for even one extra home, two extra ment on the Premier’s economic recovery task force. She homes, three extra homes? Are there any examples where said that numerous stakeholders have been in touch with two, three or four extra homes have been approved in the her ministry and her staf and would be sure to convey last year by the ALC? their concerns to the Premier’s economic recovery task [1:40 p.m.] force. Well, this is simply not good enough. I have a list of members included on the task force in front of me. We see Hon. L. Popham: Just so the member understands representatives from businesses, Indigenous groups, social what’s happened over the last year, there were 71 applic- services and creative arts, yet no mention of agriculture. ations put forward for non-adhering residential usage. [1:35 p.m.] Fify-one of those applications were approved, and 20 of What we see on the list of the Premier’s economic recov- them were refused. ery task force is, for instance, the Business Council of I also, in speaking with the ALC…. It’s not unusual that B.C., the B.C. Chamber of Commerce, the Surrey Board of there are more than two houses on a farming property to Trade, the Federation of Labour, the First Nations Major support the farming family. Although we don’t have the fle number, there is one example that is from the Okanagan 166 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020 with three dwellings being on a farm parcel to support the Hon. L. Popham: Well, I certainly can’t speak for the family farm. insurance companies, but what I can tell you is that the Te member says he thinks it’s unheard of, but I’ve trav- rule hasn’t changed. elled a lot throughout the province, especially through the Cariboo, and it’s not unusual, in my view, that there’s more I. Paton: I have so many articles. It’s endless. I think than one family home on a piece of property. the minister would get the same agricultural newspapers and magazines and articles in local newspapers. It’s I. Paton: Well, we must be, certainly, talking to diferent absolutely endless. So many of them focus on Bill 52 people, reading diferent media outlets. and the issues of rural property owners trying to succeed Tis is just such a huge issue in B.C. In fact, just the oth- with a secondary home. er day, I had a call from up in Hixon, B.C., with an elderly I’ve said for years, when I’ve made comments or couple living in a small older house on a farm. Tis has to speeches, that I’ve travelled this province, and if the next do with insurance, of all things. Insurance companies are generation of farmers coming along are to succeed and now saying to these folks, who have a single-wide trailer buy into the family business as a successful business, we on the farm as well…. Te insurance agencies, including need to allow family members and farm help to live on down here…. the farm. An example is going to be my own farm in Delta. Insur- An example is Smithers. In Smithers, there are actually ance companies are now saying: “We will not insure the 11 dairy farms up there. Some of them are 25 or 30 kilo- secondary mobile home. Under the legislation, if that metres away from downtown Smithers. A dairy farm is a mobile home burns down, it cannot be rebuilt and 24-hour-a-day business. Tis is a farm that has cows calv- replaced, because they’re only allowed one home on that ing in the middle of the night, cows that are sick with milk title property.” So there’s an example. fever, horses that are foaling in the middle of the night. Even on my own family farm, I have my mother in a How could you possibly expect family members to com- house built in 1905, and I live in my grandfather’s house, mute 25 kilometres and live in an apartment in downtown which was built in the 1930s. If one of those two houses Smithers when the father and mother own an 800-acre were to burn down, we’re being told that we cannot rebuild dairy farm with one home on it? the second house because my mother is not considered Tere’s a housing crisis in this province. Every Monday farm help. night in council, when I was on council…. It’s a no-brain- Could you answer that for me, please? er. All over this province, councils, on Monday nights, add [1:45 p.m.] density to their municipalities — two-lot splits, three-lot splits. We’ve got to make houses narrow. We’ve got to put Hon. L. Popham: Tank you for the question. It’s good more houses per square foot on lots. Yet in B.C., we have to clarify what can and what can’t happen. So I appreciate farms that are 100 acres, 800 acres, 1,200 acres, and we’re the opportunity to do that. saying that you can have one house, maybe two. I’m sug- If there was a residence that was afected by fre on a gesting that we should have three, maybe four. farm, if it was a mobile home or a dwelling…. First of, all If you have family members, sons and daughters, that existing structures are grandfathered. If one of those were want to be on the farm, they deserve to live on the farm to succumb to a fre, it would actually just be a process if they want to be part of that farming operation. Even of applying to build another residence to replace it. Tat a former NDP Minister of Agriculture, David Zirnhelt, would go through the ALC. had this to say: As far as the insurance question, the rule hasn’t “Policy needs to refect the realities of farmers living on the changed. It’s just who administers the rule that has land and leaving the work in retirement. Attracting and retaining changed. It used to fall under local government, but it the next generation in farming is critical to the survival of family farms…. Increasingly, recent generations have higher expectations was exactly the same rule. Tey would have the ability to of lifestyle if they are going to be on the land. In short, decent hous- choose whether or not a building would be rebuilt, if it was ing, decent income and a supportive, stimulating culture around us necessary for the farm operation. It used to fall under loc- is necessary to attract and retain people in the rural areas…. al governments’ responsibility, and now it falls under the “Good housing in the rural areas is hard to come by, especially if landowners are restricted to one home per parcel of land in the ALC responsibility. Te rule hasn’t changed. agricultural zones…. Having more, better housing stock will help retain and attract young families. Older folks like to have others I. Paton: To the minister: you’ve just said it’s not an around for the heavy lifing and for emergencies.” issue; it’s not a problem. How can this information get out I have said this all along too. Rural communities and to the B.C. bureau of insurance, so that this gets out to rural landowners…. It’s also about succession of family insurance companies all through the rural parts of B.C., members. It’s about having grandpa and grandma on the which are suggesting to farm owners that they will not farm. It’s about helping out with child care and families insure secondary dwellings on farms? looking afer each other. [1:50 p.m.] Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 167

We have an issue in British Columbia with rural areas, Hon. L. Popham: First of, I hope that the member is where the elementary schools are closing down. Te com- clear that if a farming family has the requirement for an munity halls are not open anymore. Tey’re closing down additional residence to help support the family farm, there because there are not enough people living in the rural is a path forward to the ALC with an application. I hope areas. Tat’s why we need farm families to be on these that the member understands that there’s no limit on the farms with multiple houses. number of homes a family farm can build if it supports the Another quote I’d like to bring forward is from the farming operation. Fraser Valley News of June 2020, and it’s a quote from the I hope that the member is clear on that, and I hope that Minister of Agriculture: “It takes a lot of people to run he is able to also give that message to our farming famil- a large farm. Having parents, in-laws and siblings on site ies around the province. I know he travels a lot around the helps many B.C. farms produce the food we need more province. Or he used to, as I used to. It’s really important efciently. Our government will continue to make life bet- that people in the province get the correct information. ter for these hard-working farming families.” Around the resolutions that came forward at UBCM, My question to the minister. Afer quotes like the one I there has been an ongoing engagement process with local just read out, how in the world can we continue on with government with my ministry. Local government has been Bill 52 and the legislation that is hurting people from put- providing the input that explores all of those additional ting secondary or third homes on their family farms? residence options, and those were options that we laid out in our intentions paper for residential fexibility. Hon. L. Popham: Tank you to the critic. I couldn’t [2:00 p.m.] agree more. Tat’s why there is no limit to the amount of applications that you can put forward to the ALC for I. Paton: I have so many binders of interesting quotes homes that can be built that support the family farm. here. I’d like to read something that was sent to me from [1:55 p.m.] the Delta Farmers Institute, which, of course, I’m quite closely connected to. I. Paton: I’d like to look at some resolutions from “Farm operations need fexibility for residential housing UBCM about the same issue. Tis isn’t just about farmers, and additional housing, particularly with the widespread ranchers, rural landowners in B.C. that have got all of challenges of housing afordability and worker shortages. the issues with Bill 52. Tis comes down to resolutions at For instance, livestock needs on-site supervision. In some UBCM and from chambers of commerce. cases, it is a travel distance issue to obtain local staf. For Tere’s a 31,000-person petition that got presented in many operations, having accommodation is essential for the Legislature last fall. Part of the petition reads: “Give competitiveness and can encourage diversity for existing equal opportunities for all farmers to diversify and sell farmers and new entrants.” value-added farm products independent of alcohol pro- I would like, at this point, to bring another example up. duction.” In my travels, I was in Fort St. John. I’ve just had such a UBCM resolution B168, September of 2019, reads this: great opportunity to check out all parts of British Colum- “To reinstate the previous provisions of the legislation bia and all the diferent farming operations. I met with a which facilitated the construction of additional dwellings lovely older couple up in Fort St. John. We sat, and we had for farm help, manufactured homes for immediate family cofee in their kitchen. Tey specifcally asked me to come members, accommodation above an existing farm build- over because on the edge of their huge canola and wheat ing or a second single-family dwelling.” It was endorsed farm was a bit of a knoll, with mostly all trees and bush, unanimously. but a clearing on that knoll. My third resolution is from Kootenay regional district. Tey really wanted their son and daughter-in-law and It was: “Be it resolved that the province reinstate the previ- their children to be able to take possession of that knoll ous provisions of the legislation which facilitated the con- and build a house to live on the farm with their elderly struction of additional dwellings for farm help, manufac- mom and dad. But because they were turned down by the tured homes for immediate family members and accom- ALC to subdivide of about fve acres on that knoll to build modation over existing farm buildings or a second single- their own house…. Banks, we must understand, do not family dwelling.” hand out mortgages to people that don’t have their name When these resolutions are put forward at UBCM…. I on the title of a piece of property. Tat’s another huge issue fnd UBCM to be very serious. Te resolutions part of the in this province. program is very serious. I’ve never been part of govern- What would you say to this family — a great, hard- ment yet to deal with resolutions. But have you dealt with working family with a huge history in the Peace country of these resolutions that have been put forward at UBCM farming — that their son and daughter-in-law and grand- regarding the restriction of secondary homes on rural children cannot separate of this fve acres to build a house properties? in Fort St. John? 168 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020

Hon. L. Popham: Well, frst of, any of the regulations I’d like to move on to value-added. Also hitting the around subdividing on the ALR have not changed. Tose media and the newspapers like everything else has with regulations exist as they did under the member’s govern- Bill 52 and Bill 15 in the last couple years are the Abbots- ment. Tere’s been no change there. I do know that there ford Gleaners. What a wonderful group. I’ve been there are fnancial mechanisms available to build more than one with an MLA from Abbotsford. We both know them very home on the same title, and that’s demonstrated, by well. What a great group of faith-based volunteers. Of example, all around the province, as the member has course, all they wanted to do was to expand their operation stated as well. to put in a bit of a bigger lunchroom and some washrooms. [2:05 p.m.] Tat was turned down by the ALC. Talk about “out of sight, out of mind.” Tey had this I. Paton: Tank you, Minister. We certainly must be get- great old house, probably built in the late ’70s, and they ting diferent reactions from people all over the province. I turned it into a recovery centre for women in Abbotsford. am constantly getting calls and trying to get back to people Tey’ve been told by the ALC to close down the women’s who, disappointedly, time afer time, are being turned recovery centre on this piece of property. So the Gleaners down for applications for things like I just spoke of. were shut down. Tey’ve been told to move of, on the Here’s another situation over on Vancouver Island from same property, this wonderful faith-based house for a friend. Meghan writes: “Tere are no promises. Our lives women who need help with recovery. are on hold, waiting for the minister to correct the housing Ten there’s the Hop Fest in Chilliwack. Maan Farms constraints that the minister has put on us, which have were under scrutiny in Abbotsford. Te Glow event was ultimately had a negative impact on our abilities to farm cancelled in Langley. Peteys Pumpkin Patch made all and been exacerbated throughout this pandemic.” the television stations for closing down his Halloween Now, this young lady and her parents on the farm pumpkin patch. wanted to move a single-wide trailer on to a rural property Te Rusted Rake on Vancouver Island, of course, hit all on Vancouver Island. Tey actually wanted to place the the media. A great little venue. People would go there for trailer on an old site of a tennis court, so they would not lunch with products that were grown on the farm, whether even be putting it on any sort of black soil. But of course, it was poultry, pork, vegetables or soups and sandwiches. again, they were turned down by the ALC. Bird’s Eye Cove farm, up in Nanoose Bay, was shut Is there any reason why that should happen? down because they were having pizza nights on Friday nights, with products grown on their own farm, up Hon. L. Popham: First of, it’s really important to have around Maple Bay. correct information. So I would just like to correct the My question. Can you explain to me…? All these won- member. He said that nobody is having any applications derful events have been shut down. Is there any progress? approved through the ALC. In fact, that’s not true. Tere Have any of them been given the right to go ahead in the were 71 applications. Fify-one were approved, and 20 wer- upcoming fall season? en’t. Tat’s a 72 percent approval rating. Te vast majority [2:15 p.m.] of applications are being approved, frst of. Ten the good news is that there’s a path forward for Hon. L. Popham: I know the member knows this, but farming families. Te example that the member brought I’ll just remind him that the agritourism rules haven’t up…. Te good news is if an additional residence needs to changed under our government. In fact, they were be put in place to support the family farm for farming pur- changed under the previous government. poses, then there is an application process that’s available for that family. I. Paton: Tat’s it?

I. Paton: I just want to quickly read into the record…. Hon. L. Popham: Is that a question? I mean, I’ve got so many letters here of people that have been turned down. I. Paton: I’d like to further read out a quote from Te McDonald family in Salmon Arm, with a small the B.C. Cattlemen’s Association regarding value-added property, have been turned down for a second home. enterprises on farms in British Columbia. I quote from Tey’re retired over by Adams Lake. Tey want to move the November 20, 2019, B.C. Cattlemen’s Association over to the property in Salmon Arm with their daughter submission on supporting B.C. farmers and ranchers. It and son-in-law. goes on to say: Te Watt family of Loon Lake and Clinton turned “Tis at a time when ranching families need the ministry and down. Mr. Corson turned down. Mindy Parmar turned the province to stand up for agriculture, not regulate farm families down. Te list is absolutely endless. So I’m very confused out of business…. “Te B.C. Cattlemen’s Association has established the following by these answers. founding principles for this engagement…. [2:10 p.m.] Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 169

“Bona fde operations must be allowed to diversify income, [2:20 p.m.] through a variety of means, as long as the productive capacity of the land is not diminished.” I. Paton: I don’t actually know that. I just know that I’ll go on to read a quote that comes from the petition I’ve been hoarded with hundreds of emails and phone calls that was handed in. “Te government should give equal about…. I’ve even been to meetings at the Rusted Rake opportunities to all farmers to diversify and sell value- with so many community members in that area upset that added farm products independent of alcohol production.” the Rusted Rake is sitting there closed right now, where it Ten it goes on to say…. was so popular for the locals to come in and have cofee An article came out just in the last couple of days. It’s and lunch at the Rusted Rake and make use of products so shocking for people in British Columbia to see that the from the farm that they were farming. Rusted Rake, an example of a great little eatery using farm products from their farm on Vancouver Island, was shut Hon. L. Popham: I’m wondering if the member would down. I don’t know what the status is right now of the Rus- like to have a briefng. ted Rake. I’m also wondering. Does the member believe that local Tere’s a little farm operation and eatery on Bowen government should be ignored? Island called Orbaek. You may have read this article. Orbaek is being allowed to function, on agricultural land I. Paton: I don’t think the questions are being actually in the agricultural land reserve, on Bowen Island. It’s con- thrown at me. So I’d like to move on. sidered a food lounge. Apparently they can stay, whereas We’re talking about support for the family farm, and other similar operations continuing in areas of B.C. are the minister brought that up on several occasions regard- being shut down. ing secondary homes. Could she tell me exactly what the Now, what is the diference between an eatery and a term “supporting the family farm” would refer to? Does food lounge that is being allowed to stay on Bowen Island? this refer to supporting seniors living on the farms, or does it mean supporting through child care or for farm work- Hon. L. Popham: I know the member knows this. It ers? I’d just like to know her defnition of “supporting the would be, I think, important if the member doesn’t know family farm.” this. We could have a conversation to talk about it. Te Rusted Rake didn’t have local government approval for Hon. L. Popham: It’s a great question. Anybody who’s running its restaurant. been involved in farming…. Te member has told us many I guess my question is back to the critic. Does he know times how involved he’s been in farming. I have been this? involved in farming. We know there are many, many activities that support a I. Paton: My answer to that question is…. It’s not really farm. If a family is farming a piece of ALR land, and they about the Rusted Rake. It’s about dozens upon dozens of need support with whatever activities in order to be suc- farming operations in B.C. that are basically doing the cessful at running that farm…. It could include just about same thing. Tey’re non-compliant. anything that a family would need to run a business. I could name so many in my community of Delta on But let’s be clear. Tese activities would support a family Westham Island. I’m in fear that the ALC is one day going farming operation. Sometimes that means child care. to drive out there and go: “Wow, you can’t do this. You’re Sometimes that means having your aged parents live closer selling more than 50 percent of the product that you grew to you. Sometimes that means having accommodation for on your farm. Maybe you’re parking too many cars on the people helping out with the farming activities. feld as a parking lot.” Tere’s such a number of activities that support family I mean, there are just so many successful operations tak- farms. I can say that that’s why they’re the heart of com- ing place that are good for agriculture. I don’t know what munities so ofen, because they include so many people in the issue is with the Rusted Rake and why it has been shut the operations. I’ve visited many farms where the entire down. family is…. It’s all hands on deck. So I would say that that I’d like to move on now. I want to go back…. would be a great defnition of what supports a family farm.

Te Chair: Excuse me, Member. Te minister indicated I. Paton: I’ll get back, once again, to one of my favour- she wanted to speak. ite groups — and I brought this up already — the Abbotsford Gleaners Society and the women’s shelter. Hon. L. Popham: Tank you, Madam Chair. Could I just get an explanation of where that stands right I’m still curious. Does the member know why the Rus- now, if they’re back in business, or are they still being ted Rake wasn’t allowed to proceed? It was because it didn’t forced of the property? have local government approval at the time. Does the [2:25 p.m.] member know that? 170 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020

Hon. L. Popham: Te women’s shelter were told that We then asked for comments to come back to us. Initially, they had two years to relocate. Tey put in an application we said that we would accept comments until April 17, for reconsideration, and that application is in process. but because of the current situation with the pandemic, we actually extended this engagement process with local gov- I. Paton: I just want to quickly move on. I’ve got so ernment, just to refect our current situation. many things to chat about. I just wanted to give you not so I can absolutely send the member a copy of the inten- much a question but an update. tions paper. I have two families in the Kootenays — I’ll call them Tim and, another family, Corey — around Canal Flats in I. Paton: Tank you. I stand corrected. I did know Nakusp. Tey’re very, very concerned, as a local farmers that. What I was referring to, I guess, was the comment association, with recreational trails for ATV, motorbikes period that has come up. It’s been extended throughout and whatnot going through ALR land. this summer now. I’m just wondering if…. Tey’re desperately looking for Te other thing that I just wanted to bring up is how answers, and they’re desperately saying that motorized there’s a lot of backtracking that seems to happen quite ATVs, etc., are not only a fre hazard but they’re a hazard ofen, saying: “Okay, we’re going to reconsider possible to livestock, taking down fences and not closing gates and secondary homes on farms.” Tat’s a direct quote. things like that. Ten there are the gravel driveways that the ministry Tese are two issues in the Kootenays. Recreational had to back down on, going: “Yeah, that wasn’t such a good trails are being built and put forward for ATVs, etc. So I’d idea. A lot of farms and ranches have extremely long drive- appreciate it if the ALC could possibly look into that. ways that need to put down a lot of gravel every year.” So My other question, getting back to the housing that got backed down. quickly before we move forward. Te intentions paper Ten there was the satellite issue. I’d sure like to fnd out came out. Now, you’ve told me all day long now that sec- if we still have satellites — if that issue has been backed ondary homes are no problem, even third homes, etc. down on or if we still have MDA Systems looking at satel- So why, then, would there be another NDP consulta- lites, working on behalf of the Agricultural Land Commis- tion? We need to study this some more. Why was there sion to check on farms throughout B.C. for evil-doers. an intentions paper that came out where people weren’t told to put in their opinion on this particular issue? And Hon. L. Popham: I can confrm that there is no bid or the intentions paper still hasn’t been fnished and hasn’t contract underway to use satellites in the Ministry of Agri- been brought forward. culture. But I will say that we do use Google Earth, and the Can you tell me a bit about the intentions paper, why it’s Agricultural Land Commission uses Google Earth, which needed if you’re telling me that people can, no problem, is a satellite system. So I hope that helps the member. apply for second and third homes? [2:35 p.m.] Ten, as far as the comment about fll or gravel on drive- Te Chair: Trough the Chair, please, Member. Tank ways, we’re always interested in how to make changes to you. support farming in the province. We know that there was rampant fll dumping on farmland, and that was rampant Hon. L. Popham: I also hope that the member under- under the member’s government. But we made sure that stands that there’s a path forward for people who own ALR we’ve put into place regulations that can stop fll dumping land who are farmers. So you can apply to have an addi- that damages farmland. As far as making sure that farmers tional residence. You can apply to have two additional res- have the ability to use gravel on their driveways when they idences, as long as that residence supports the require- need to, in a way that works for them, was also something ments to run the farm successfully. Tere’s an agricultural that was very well supported. lens that is used when decisions are made on the agricul- tural land reserve by the Agricultural Land Commission. I. Paton: Tank you to the minister for that answer. We also have people in the province that own agricul- On the topic of fll dumping, actually, when I was on tural land reserve land that aren’t farming. Te intentions the city of Delta, we solved that problem so easily by paper was specifcally to address concerns and needs that our own local bylaws enforcement people, who took a people may have who aren’t farming. keen interest in watching out for illegal fll dumping on farmland. Tat could be done all over the province with I. Paton: When will the intentions paper be released? bylaws at a municipal level. [2:30 p.m.] It’s a great part of the bill to make sure that we don’t have illegal dumping on our farmland in British Colum- Hon. L. Popham: It’s unfortunate that the member bia. But based on the Agricultural Land Commission and doesn’t know that the intentions paper was released. I’d be the number of enforcement ofcers, how will the enforce- happy to send him a copy. Tat was released on January 27. ment ofcers…? I’m assuming that there are fve or six or Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 171 seven, maybe, for the entire province. How will fve or six Yes, the member is right. Last October I was able to or seven of them keep track and keep watch over illegal make a statement with Minister Eby and Minister Farn- dumping on farmland in the entire province of B.C.? worth around our views on how this situation needed to be handled and that we were very concerned about Hon. L. Popham: First of, I’d like to say that Delta does the livelihoods of farmers and the mental health of farm- an amazing job around fll dumping and has for a num- ers because of what had happened over the year. We ber of years. Te Agricultural Land Commission appreci- saw some very difcult trespassing situations, one spe- ates that so much. It hasn’t been the case with all local gov- cifcally around hogs that the family is still struggling to ernments around the province. So with the legislation, that come to terms with. was changed. It just allows the Agricultural Land Commis- We are very much interested in making sure that we can sion to have better partnerships with local government. protect the farmers and their families in the way that they Tey are complaint-driven. Te ALC is complaint-driv- need to be protected. Te member is not correct. We actu- en. So it’s really important for them to have these good ally have taken steps, and they’ve been important steps. working relationships with local government. I really do Last October we convened the frst meeting, and this think that the change will allow us to see less harm done to involved farming stakeholders, association groups, law farmland, and I think the member and I would agree that enforcement, and cross-ministry, and we talked about the that’s a good idea. direction that we needed to go. Our next meeting was scheduled to happen in March, but it was cancelled I. Paton: Tank you to the minister. We certainly agree because of COVID. It was rescheduled, and coincidentally, with that. Tere was nothing that I hated more than seeing it just happened yesterday. Again, we had farmers repres- trucks on a dark Sunday night going down farm roads and ented. We had the associations represented. We had law dumping their fll material illegally. enforcement representation, and we had cross-ministry. Speaking of fnes and diferent things, I want to move What was put forward was a paper on best practices on to trespass. On the day of October 28, 2019, my col- which was given to the stakeholder group. Te request was league from Chilliwack put forward a private member’s bill that they review it, give feedback and come back in three to strengthen the Trespass Act, because it’s become a huge weeks to give their feedback. Basically, this was an action issue for farmers and ranchers in this province and pro- plan on what needed to happen, but we didn’t feel com- cessing companies for poultry and beef and pork, etc. A fortable moving forward on it without input from all of the huge issue. stakeholder groups. Tat evening the minister stood on a podium at the [2:45 p.m.] Hotel Grand Pacifc with her colleagues the Attorney Gen- One of the things that became very clear was that there eral and the Solicitor General and made a statement on was an interest in increasing penalties for trespassing, but how they were going to really back the farmers. Tey had a there was also a really big interest in making sure there great audience. It was a lot of fanfare. Lots of farmers there was an education component. Te B.C. police chiefs asso- to hear this speech. ciation was also very interested in examining their own Last October the minister stood in front of ranchers and purview to see what they could do and if there were any farmers with her colleagues and committed to take action gaps in how they were responding. on animal activism. FOIs have confrmed that neither col- I think everybody appreciates having a round table. league has taken any action, and all the Ministry of Agri- Being able to put forward the views of agriculture to law culture has done is tell farmers and ranchers that they need enforcement is very helpful. It helps to educate everybody to ensure that fences are up and call the police. to make sure that we’re going to be moving forward in What that means is it’s the farmers and ranchers’ the right way. But I have to say that it’s very disconcerting responsibility to deal with trespassers who violate biosec- when families feel like they have to hide in their homes urity measures and scare their families, and they are lef because of the activities that are happening from trespass- abandoned by this ministry. In Ontario and Alberta, ers outside their door. they’ve gone to bat. Tey’ve got the legislation put in. In Alberta, the fnes are $10,000, $25,000 and $200,000 if you I. Paton: Tank you to the minister for that response. I want to protest as a corporation. certainly hope this can move quickly to move in line with My question to the minister. Will the minister commit Alberta and Ontario, to get some frm legislation and a today to take action like our neighbours in Alberta have frm act to bring penalties against people that trespass on done to stop animal activists from compromising B.C.’s private farm owners. food supply? I want to quickly jump ahead to a private member’s bill, [2:40 p.m.] which I presented on the exact same day as my colleague in Chilliwack presented his on the Trespass Act. One of the Hon. L. Popham: Tanks for the question. It’s a very, most important pieces of farmland in British Columbia — very important issue. of course, I’m a little bit biased — is Brunswick Point in 172 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020

Delta. We have kicked this around for so many years, and it could be fooding, or it could be wind. I thought the I cannot seem to get answers. minister was a little bit unclear in her answer. I just want A quote from the Delta Farmers Institute: “We have to establish some clarity. been fortunate, for over a century, that the 600 acres of It strikes me that in a situation where a home that Brunswick Point, with its fertile soil and proximity to the sits on a farm today is destroyed by catastrophic events, ocean, has produced high-quality vegetable crops, while there is no automatic right to rebuild that home. Is that providing habitat and feed for millions of migratory birds. statement correct? Te community needs to know that this farmland will [2:55 p.m.] remain as a public heritage asset in its natural environment Excuse me, Madam Chair. I’m not sure. On my screen, and feed our population.” It is an integral component of the minister is no longer present in the committee. Is she Delta’s 22,000 acres of agricultural lands. requiring a recess? I go on to quote the mayor of Delta, who sent a letter to the hon. Premier John Horgan on May 8 of 2020: “Te Te Chair: Member, the minister is consulting with intent of Bill 221 is to require that the Brunswick Point staf, and when she’s ready to answer, she’ll return to her properties are kept as Crown land and leased to either the seat. So we’re not in recess. original farm families or other local farmers for a min- imum lease term of 20 years. Despite the current restric- M. de Jong: My understanding is that the guidelines tions on land use, Delta is concerned that the Brunswick around that were that the minister could certainly consult Point lands could be sold to speculators with no interest in with staf but would do so on screen. farming and with plans for future non-agricultural devel- opment.” Te Chair: Minister, I’ve been advised by the Clerks We all know that there was a wonderful treaty signed that it’s a requirement that the minister stay on screen, with TFN. Tere’s a lot of economic development happen- even when consulting with staf. Tank you. ing out at TFN. Tey are being very successful. Tey have a huge shopping mall. Tey have hundreds of new homes Hon. L. Popham: Tere is no automatic approval that going up on what was agricultural land. Tere are massive would make it so you wouldn’t have to go through the warehouses going up — Amazon, etc. — on what was agri- commission, no. cultural land, but to their beneft, they have a treaty. Te Brunswick Point land is still owned by the Crown, M. de Jong: Sorry, I didn’t understand the answer. and it sits right next to, basically, all the economic develop- I’ll ask the question again, which I thought was fairly ment where we’re seeing the Amazon warehouses, etc. It is clear. For a family residing in a home lawfully located so important to me and to the people of Delta that the gov- on a farm that is a primary or secondary home…. Let’s ernment move forward to give us some kind of assurance talk about a secondary home, for the moment. Were that that the Brunswick Point lands will remain in perpetuity home to be destroyed through some catastrophic event, for agriculture and for wildlife habitat. there is no automatic right to rebuild that home. Is that [2:50 p.m.] a correct statement?

Hon. L. Popham: Te province does not intend to Hon. L. Popham: I think it would be…. I think the remove Brunswick Point farmlands from the agricultural member would understand this. Tere are a lot of difer- land reserve. Farming is a priority use of land in the ALR, ent situations that can arise. When the building was ori- as he knows, and the Brunswick Point lands are actively ginally built, who approved it? Was it local government? being used for agricultural purposes right now. Te Was it the Agricultural Land Commission? Have regula- province will continue to work with all stakeholders in tions changed? I think it would be, probably, most cor- Delta to ensure that Crown lands are managed for the rect to say that there would have to be a discussion with beneft of all British Columbians. the commission.

M. de Jong: Tanks to my colleague for letting me slot M. de Jong: Well, I’m going to try once more, because in. the minister seems reluctant to acknowledge what obvi- Earlier in the exchange with the minister, my colleague ously fows from her statement. She speaks of the need from Delta was pursuing a line of questioning around sec- for an application. I understand that. It fows, therefore, ondary houses and a couple of aspects, one in particular that in the circumstances I have described — where a that has arisen, that the minister touched on briefy. I just family has lost their home through catastrophic events wanted to explore further. — there is no automatic right to rebuild. Tere is an Te minister and my colleague talked about circum- application process involved in seeking the right to stances where a secondary home is destroyed. Tey talked rebuild. Is that correct? about catastrophic events like fre, but I suppose that today Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 173

Hon. L. Popham: What I actually said was that there comment on the measure of uncertainty that has been cre- would be a discussion that would be needed with the com- ated for those families. I’ve couched this question in the mission, and at that point, there would be a determination context of a secondary home, but, of course, the same of whether or not an application needed to be done. rules apply for the primary residence, because when the [3:00 p.m.] primary residence burns down, the secondary residence I think that would be, probably, similar to the way that becomes the primary residence. local government would handle a house or a building out- [3:05 p.m.] side the agricultural land reserve. If a house has been there Perhaps the minister can tell us a little bit more about for many, many years, I don’t think it would be an auto- the conversation that will determine whether or not a matic approval to build it in exactly the same way that it family gets to continue to live, to rebuild, afer a cata- was originally built, if there had been a change in building strophic event and live in a home that may have been codes, etc. So you would have a discussion with local gov- home for decades. ernment in the same way. Hon. L. Popham: First of, to clarify for the member, M. de Jong: Well, to be fair, I think the minister is if the primary residence burns down, the secondary res- comparing apples and oranges. A conversation about the idence doesn’t become the primary residence. Te com- building code and what a new replacement home, for one mission doesn’t follow that. It’s really around the order of burned down or washed away in a food, would look like placement, and the commission isn’t interested in arguing is a very diferent thing than a conversation about whether the semantics. Te secondary is the secondary. or not you can actually build a home. Does the minister If a house burns down, there is a general discussion that agree? happens with the commission. Tere really needs to be a discussion around why that permit was issued. Was it for Hon. L. Popham: Let’s be quite clear. Te rules haven’t the purpose of farming, and is there farming taking place? changed. It’s just that who’s making the decision has Are the people inhabiting it a part of the farming opera- changed. Originally, if local government would have tion? If so, then you can rebuild that home. If everything approved that dwelling if it was an additional dwelling, has changed, there’s no farming happening and it’s a sec- they would have put it through the lens of agriculture. Tat ondary home on a piece of ALR that’s not for farming, then was the requirement for local government. Now the Agri- an application process would need to be followed. cultural Land Commission makes that decision, and they would make that decision through the lens of agriculture M. de Jong: So to say it another way, the commission as well. could say no.

M. de Jong: I’ll ask this. My question will likely be dis- Hon. L. Popham: If there’s no farming taking place, an turbed by one of the 150-car trains hauling bitumen that application process would have to be followed. And, yes, rolls through my farm with greater regularity than it once there could be a negative result. did. Tat is a matter for another discussion with another minister, but I apologize in advance for the background M. de Jong: Would it be more accurate for the minister noise that will interrupt this conversation. to say, “If the ALC deemed there wasn’t sufcient farming Look, the minister now wants to suggest that nothing activity taking place…”? Wouldn’t that be a more accurate has changed. I am going to take issue with that. But statement? It would be a subjective test to be considered by maybe it is more helpful for me to explore, for a the ALC. Correct? moment, the nature of the conversation that the minister [3:10 p.m.] has referred to. To take this from the abstract to the real, I’m looking Hon. L. Popham: It’s a decision that the ALC makes out of my window to a farm just down the road from with the information that’s provided to them. me, where this is now a reality. Te minister has said that on the morning afer a family rakes through the burning M. de Jong: I’m not trying to be argumentative. I am, embers of what used to be their house, rather than begin however, seeking a reasonable level of clarity from the to plan for its replacement and reconstruction, they need minister that she seems reluctant to ofer. to go have a conversation with a provincial body called the Tere is a discussion. We have established this. A family Agricultural Land Commission to, presumably, seek per- lives in a secondary dwelling, maybe for decades. Tat mission — the minister can tell the committee more about home is destroyed. Te minister, though she refuses to say that — to replace the home that they may have been living the words, acknowledges that there is no automatic right in for decades. to rebuild. Te family must have a conversation with the Tell us about that discussion. Tell us, today, what guides ALC. She acknowledges the ALC could say: “No, you can’t that discussion. While she’s doing so, perhaps she can rebuild.” 174 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020

I have made the proposition that they will have, in their member was sitting, then, in government — on rules and own mind, some criteria. Te minister says: “If there’s agri- use and subdivision of agricultural land reserve: “a local cultural activity taking place.” Families could have a government, or an authority, or board or another agency garden. My guess is that the ALC wouldn’t determine that established by it or a person or an agency that enters into to be sufcient agricultural activity. an agreement under the Local Services Act may not” — so I have suggested to the minister that the ALC would local government — “permit non-farm use of agricultural subjectively decide on the basis of whether they deter- land or permit a building to be erected on the land except mined there to be sufcient agricultural activity. Is that for farm use, or approve more than one residence on a par- correct? cel of land unless the additional residences are necessary for farm use.” Hon. L. Popham: I hope the member understands this. For the member’s interest, there was no criteria or defn- Nothing has changed except for the decision-maker. Local ition of “farm use” for local government to use. So I think government would have gone through the same process, that we have decisions on record, applications on record. looking at it through the lens of agriculture, just as the So the member can go back and look at records from the Agricultural Land Commission would be using the lens of Agricultural Land Commission of approvals or denials. agriculture. So there has been nothing that’s been changed We have what the commission considers as a guideline, other than the body making the decision. And those rules and we have, basically, the same rule in place but a dif- were in place under the member’s government. ferent decision-maker — but maybe making it more clear what farming is. M. de Jong: You know, it’s really — and I say this respectfully — an astounding statement for the minister I. Paton: Tank you to my colleague from Abbotsford to make considering the fact that the body now making West. Perhaps we could further this conversation tomor- the decision is bound by a strict statutory mandate. If the row morning if we have time. minister doesn’t consider that a relevant change, then I At this time, I believe I’d like to turn over 30 minutes of think we’re all in trouble. I think that the minister is reluct- questioning to the members of the Tird Party. ant, and perhaps understandably so, to acknowledge the uncertainty that this has created for families. S. Furstenau: Tank you to the member for Delta South Time doesn’t permit me to pursue, and I don’t think I’ll for that. We’re always having to juggle our schedules and give the minister a chance. Does she not see the complic- try to keep to things. ations that this creates for families, even in this day and I have one area of questions that I just very quickly age, securing insurance on that secondary residence? My want to touch base with the minister on, and then I’ll colleague mentioned that, and the minister glossed over it. hand it over to my colleague from Saanich North and She’s says nothing’s changed. the Islands. We have a community in the Cowichan Val- Te decision-maker is now a body statutorily charged ley. Kingburne is the name of this community. Tey’ve with a mandate and has made it clear what its views on created a community association, largely due to impacts agricultural land and multiple dwellings on agricultural that the residents of this community have experienced as land is, though, to my knowledge, has not published a set a result of quarrying activity on ALR land on a property of criteria that they would apply to determining the answer in their region. to the question we’ve been asking. If I’m wrong, I hope [3:20 p.m.] the minister will say so, and say: “No. Actually, here’s the Tere was an approval in 2004 by the Agricultural specifc criteria that the ALC would apply in determining Land Commission for extraction of rock for an irriga- whether or not a family that had just lost their home to fre tion pond on a property. But afer 13 years of extraction, can rebuild that home.” this landowner, GT Farms, was required to apply for a [3:15 p.m.] mines permit. I mean, imagine the circumstances. But if I’m wrong, Now the same property owner has begun another now is the time for the minister to say: “Actually, here is extraction. It has a permit from the Agricultural Land the criteria. Families know today what the test would be.” Commission and is also being considered as agricultural So I’ll, on this topic, leave it at that for the minister. If use, agricultural activity. Yet the residents are very con- there’s a set of criteria, point me to it. cerned that the same pattern is repeating, and that afer 10, 12 or 14 years, then it will fnally be turned over to the Hon. L. Popham: First of, around the criteria, the com- Ministry of Mines to oversee and regulate what is, essen- mission does have a part of their website that is called tially, mining activity — extraction and quarrying. “What the commission considers.” So I think that could My frst question is kind of an umbrella question, and help the member when looking at what the criteria are. It’s that, for the minister, is: what criteria must be met for what comes into consideration. excavation on ALR land to be classifed as non-farm use? Also, just going back to 2002, Bill 21 — maybe the Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 175

At what point does extraction and quarrying become impacts on these rural communities, and does she see the non-farm use? need for either the ALC to be able to regulate or for a recognition that all extraction activities should have over- Hon. L. Popham: It’s really nice to see you, Member. I sight from the Ministry of Mines? haven’t seen your face for a while. Okay, good question. In the past, with that prior Hon. L. Popham: Tanks so much to the member for example that the member brought up, there was a title of bringing this forward. I defnitely think that my staf non-farm use for ag, which was a really vague title, and would be able to get in touch with the ministry responsible there was a lot of vagueness around what you could or for mines and have a discussion. And it would be import- couldn’t do and for the length of time. ant for me that we follow up with a meeting with you. We’ve substantially changed that. We don’t have any- thing called non-farm use for ag as far as soil goes. It’s now A. Olsen: Good day to the member for Saanich South, called soil or fll use. What triggers an application is an the Minister of Agriculture. It’s nice to unite Saanich here extraction of 500 cubic metres per year — more than that. in these budget estimates. I guess the bitumen that is If you want to do more than that, you have to put in an steaming through or railing through the member for application to the commission. At that point, the commis- Abbotsford West’s riding will be foating through our rid- sion will deem whether or not it it’s needed for agricultural ings very soon. uses. [3:30 p.m.] [3:25 p.m.] Anyhow, I would just like to start my questioning of the minister around food security. I know that this is an issue S. Furstenau: Nice to see the minister as well. that we both hold very highly in our work. We’ve talked Just quickly, does the minister have any idea how about this quite a bit, Minister. With COVID-19 and the many…? In this case, extraction is happening and trucks pandemic-related issues and disruptions in access, availab- are being flled and they’re driving away. How many truck- ility and safety of our food, it’s become an issue for many loads would 500 cubic metres a year amount to? of our constituents across the province. A couple of questions I’ll start of with here frst. How Hon. L. Popham: Tere are about seven cubic metres in do the minister and the ministry defne food security? And a truckload. So it would be 70 truckloads, approximately. to what level has the ministry been tracking disruptions of the food supply with respect to the most recent impacts S. Furstenau: I know that my colleague also has a lot of due to COVID-19? questions, so I’m going to just kind of try to wrap this all into one thing. Tis is that for the residents of this com- Hon. L. Popham: It’s absolutely good to see my col- munity, what they’ve experienced is an enormous amount league from the other end of the peninsula. of what has essentially amounted to mining activity. How does the ministry defne food security? As the Te roads in this area are incredibly narrow. Tere is member knows, and in discussions that we’ve had, that’s increased truck trafc. Tere have been incidents where not a completely simple question to answer. It’s a com- mining material has gone up in the sky and landed in plex term, and it’s used by many people for many difer- neighbouring properties. Tere are defnitely worries ent reasons. about impacts to groundwater. What they are experien- Te ministry considers Agriculture’s role as working cing, now that they’re in round two of this, where another towards food supply security and helping B.C. producers permit has been granted by the ALC, is that…. Tis is a and processors to grow and process more food, making quote from the letter they got from the ALC: “Te ALC is more food available to our British Columbian consumers. not mandated to consider issues relating to trafc, ground- We’re working with our colleagues across ministries water, noise, terrain hazards in their review of activities on because, as the member also knows, it’s not just a Ministry the ALR.” of Agriculture matter. What these people are experiencing is mining activity Te disruptions. We’ve seen consumers be very alarmed happening in their neighbourhood without the oversight when they’ve gone to the grocery stores over the pandemic of the mining ministry and with the ALC saying: “We months, and they’ve seen some of the products that they don’t do oversight on those activities because it’s not in our purchase not being there. Te shelves were bare. So what realm.” we saw from that was a reaction by consumers to over-buy Tis will be my last question, I guess, for the minister. products. In fact, we didn’t have a supply issue. We actually Tis is a bit more of a philosophical question. Does she had an overpurchasing issue, or an overenthusiastic con- recognize that these impacts are happening in communit- sumer purchasing issue. ies when what is essentially extraction is happening Tat being said, we’ve been tracking and supporting without the oversight and regulation that one would the movement of B.C. food to consumers and markets expect from the Ministry of Mines and that that is having 176 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020 throughout this entire disruption, and we’ve been working only how to increase domestic sales but how to produce to identify possible pressures on B.C.’s food supply chains. more food in general. We’ve made sure that we’ve done that to ensure contin- We consider the domestic market part of a very strong ued B.C. food safety and supply. But as the member knows foundation in our food security goals. Previously there has from our conversation, the labour has probably stood out been more of a focus put on the international market. But to be one of the biggest factors in our food security here in we can see that when something like a health disruption the province over the last few months and continuing over happens, like COVID-19, those markets crash immedi- the summer. ately. So we do see growers that have lost those interna- We have taken many measures to ensure…. It’s not just tional markets. our primary producers who have been in contact with us, It’s been our argument that those markets are great relaying any of the concerns that they have. We’ve been in when they can happen, but we need to make sure that contact with our food processors and our fshers. Over the our domestic markets are increased. Tat’s really what last few months, we’ve made well over 6,000 contacts with we’ve been doing with our Grow B.C., Feed B.C. and Buy the entire sector in British Columbia. Tat includes con- B.C. platform. sumer groups and retail outlets as well. A. Olsen: Tank you to the minister. I think Ryan A. Olsen: Tank you, Minister, for that response. Vantreight was the one that always reminded me of the I guess, as COVID-19 hit us, in the spring of 2020…. rule of toos: “Too hot, too cold, too wet, too dry. It’s We’re going to be working through the summer, through always too something.” the late summer–early fall harvest. To the last comment the minister just made, with [3:35 p.m.] respect to what we supply, I think 40 percent was the num- Recognizing that a second wave could come, could very ber that you quoted — meaning that a majority of the well extend and is likely to extend, into the late fall and food that we consume comes from somewhere else. I think winter, there have been a number of people that have that that is to the point of a lot of the constituents that raised issues with me about the concern that what we see I have. All of our constituents, from across the province, right now might not be the biggest issue, that what is com- have raised the concern about the reliance on food imports ing might be even a bigger issue. and that a continued supply must continue to fow. Does the minister and the ministry have any sense of What role does your ministry play in the import side? the stability and security of our food supply heading into I recognize and hold up the work that you’re doing to try the later months of this year and early 2021? to increase the amount of domestic supply. What role does your ministry play in terms of the food imports? Hon. L. Popham: Tanks for the question. We are keep- [3:40 p.m.] ing an eye on any complications that are arising because of the pandemic. Hon. L. Popham: Tat’s a really good question. As I have mentioned, labour is a big issue. Our cherry Actually, the provincial ministry doesn’t really have a growers have seen sort of a double whammy this year. role on the imports. Tat’s more of a federal government Tey’ve had enormous challenges because of weather, and jurisdiction. When it comes to labelling of products, etc., on top of that, we’ve had some labour shortages. Tere are it falls under the federal minister’s role, but we do sit at a issues like that that continue to come up. table, right now about every two weeks, at the minister’s With agriculture, though, every year we do see some level, all ministers from across Canada and the federal kind of challenge. Because we have such a remarkable and minister, including the territories. Ten my deputies also strong supply management system in British Columbia — sit on federal-provincial-territorial deputy committees. I for things that consumers rely on like eggs and milk, tur- guess that’s where we would have input or hear of any key, a lot of our meat products — we do see that that sys- breaking news that way, but as a ministry ourselves, pro- tem is solid. vincially, we don’t have a role on imports. It had a bit of a challenge adjusting to the change in demand and supply, but that got sorted out. We do have A. Olsen: Tank you to the minister for that response. It that as a very strong part of the food system in British Col- highlights, I think, the importance of the work to increase umbia, but we also know that there has been a lot of great the percentage of domestic supply for British Columbians. success this year in growing vegetables that need more I think it probably highlights, also, the sense of urgency moisture, because we’ve had such a wet summer so far. that our constituents have when it comes to ensuring that I think we’re on track to making sure that we’re grow- a local food supply is available to them. ing what we need, but as the member also knows, we Just shifing gears a little bit here, talking about the work only provide between 40 and 45 percent of what we need that the ministry did with respect to the Food Security here in British Columbia. A lot of the role of this min- Task Force report that was released earlier this year. I’ve istry over the last three years has been to fgure out not had the beneft of having an initial, very high-level conver- Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 177 sation with the minister on that. I just want to ask a few concerns that have been raised to us, and I’m certain that questions here in budget estimates. they’ve been raised to your ministry. In fact, I think I’ve Does the minister, or the ministry, believe that increas- just been carbon-copied on the emails that you’ve received ing agricultural technology…? Actually, let me ask this directly to your ministry with respect to the interaction question. In the new agricultural technology and land sec- between this new agritech zone, the ALR, the ALC and all retariat that I think was recommendation No. 4, to create a of those aspects. new agritech area, the minister has created a deputy min- Perhaps we can either have a meeting outside of this ister’s role. or a written response just to how the ministry intends on Can the minister please provide some more information dealing with those — I’d say conficts, but I don’t know around who else is involved in the secretariat? What’s the that it necessarily has to been seen as a confict — inter- plan for the secretariat? Why is it that the decision was actions that are going to happen if agritech is going to made to use agricultural land rather than industrial or happen on ALR land, noting, of course, that there are a commercial land as part of the recommendation that your lot of brownfeld sites around the province, and there are ministry is currently investigating? a lot of other opportunities where those opportunities [3:45 p.m.] can be played out. I’d also just note that there was a proposal that came to Hon. L. Popham: Tanks for the question. I think the us in the B.C. Green caucus a number of months ago with frst part of the question was: who is involved in the secret- respect to closed-containment fsh farms on land — on a ariat? In addition to Deputy Minister Shoemaker, the sec- brownfeld site — that would technically, I think, ft within retariat is made up of a small team of public servants who this agritech umbrella. have been reassigned on a priority basis. Te secretariat I’m just trying to throw together as many of my ques- is working closely with my ministry, of course, and other tions into one statement as possible. But I’ll just end with ministries to ensure a cross-government collaboration. this, Minister, and thank our colleagues in the ofcial Te idea behind the secretariat is to investigate any of opposition for giving us this opportunity here today. the challenges or barriers in growing the agritech sector You did mention that there were a handful of other in British Columbia. Tere’s a lot of agritech that’s already recommendations that were made by the Food Security being used here in B.C. in many diferent parts of the sec- Task Force. Tey included an agritech incubator, an accel- tor, and there’s a lot of interest globally in agritech. To be erator program, an agritech institute and then, as well, clear, the recommendations that were put forward were aligning the agricultural activities with the United Nations’ just something for us to investigate and think about. Te sustainable development goals. I’d just love to get your secretariat is looking at all types of land, including indus- feedback or your response to those other recommenda- trial land, to support opportunities to grow the agritech tions and the work that’s potentially underway to investig- sector. ate those opportunities as well. One interesting thing that happened over the last [3:50 p.m.] week…. I’m not sure if the member saw it in the news. Tere is a proposal out in Abbotsford for a quite large Hon. L. Popham: Tanks to the member for the ques- agritech park to be built, and that is not in the agricultural tions. I appreciate the questions in writing. We will com- land reserve. So we see ideas like this coming up. We also mit to responding in writing, and then absolutely inter- know that in other regions of British Columbia, there may ested in having a briefng afer that on any aspect of any be industrial land that is available but has had a change in parts of the estimates process that we’ve gone through, but direction. specifcally on the Food Security Task Force, if that’s what Tere are a lot of things that we’re looking at. We’re try- the member is interested in. ing to map out what agritech is already here, maybe what’s I just wanted to say that there have been no decisions needed and what sort of supports need to be in place made to create a new land use zone, specifcally not on the to attract companies to British Columbia. But it’s all in ALR. It’s a possible option to create a land use zone, but the investigation stage, and I have confdence that Deputy it’s not the only option. Tat’s what Deputy Minister Shoe- Minister Wes Shoemaker will come back with a lot of good maker has been tasked to investigate. Tere will be a close information. collaboration with the Agricultural Land Commission and the secretariat. I hope that reassures the member that that A. Olsen: Tank you to the minister for that response. lens of agriculture will be used in decision-making, and To the Member for Delta South, I’ve got one last…. it aligns with our core values to protect farmland and to Well, I’ve got several questions, but I’ve got one last ques- bring it into production. tion that I will ask on the record. I think I’ve answered most of the member’s question. Before that, I will just ask that the minister…. We’ve If not, we can respond more in writing on that as well. presented the questions that we had to your ministry. But you can expect to have our response in writing by Tere’s a series of questions that you’ll see there around the next week. 178 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020

M. de Jong: We were talking earlier, discussing the role M. de Jong: I will take it from that answer — I hope, of the Agricultural Land Commission with respect to fairly — that the minister does not share the concerns that determining whether the owners of farmland could build I have attempted to articulate. a family home on that farmland. What I want to ask the Just two more things that I wanted to canvass quickly minister about now is whether or not she sees a role for with the minister if I could. My colleague from Delta spoke the ALC in determining where that home is built on the to a particular decision that was very troubling for people farmland owned by the family, if there is a role. And if she here. In the context of talking about that, I actually want believes there is a role, what is that role? to ask the minister about a decision from the ALC that I [3:55 p.m.] was pleased to see and solicit her view on that decision. It relates to the work camp application, I believe, outside of Hon. L. Popham: I’m not sure I understood completely Vanderhoof, relating to the construction of a pipeline that what the question was pertaining to, but I can say that the the government now is enthusiastic about seeing built. ALC supports the principles of the minister’s bylaw stand- Te initial decision from the ALC was to deny the per- ards around siting. We’ll ofen look to clustering as part of mit required to allow construction of that camp on agri- a proper planning process, not so that it doesn’t afect the cultural land. A review application was launched, and the productivity of the farmland. ALC subsequently reversed its decision and approved that application. Is the minister aware, and is she supportive? Te Chair: Members, we will now take a ten-minute And if she is supportive, explain the basis for her support recess. of that review and decision. [4:15 p.m.] Te committee recessed from 3:56 p.m. to 4:07 p.m. Hon. L. Popham: Just so the member is clear on the [R. Leonard in the chair.] decision process by the ALC, the initial decision was neg- ative, but it turns out that the consultation documents Te Chair: We are currently considering the budget that were required were not submitted with that initial estimates of the Ministry of Agriculture. application. Te second application, or the appeal process, allowed for those consultation documents to be provided. M. de Jong: I’m going to put the question so we can…. Tat is a substantial reason why it was approved. Having Time is always an issue here. It strikes me that we have those documents not in place the frst time showed a neg- arrived at a point where the Agricultural Land Commis- ative result for the applicant. sion now determines, in some cases at least, whether a How I feel about the application process and the farm family can build a home. Tey now have the author- approval. Tis is an approval for a temporary non-farm ity to determine the size, dimensions, of that home. And use. Tis camp is a temporary situation. It was assured to increasingly it appears that the ALC has reserved to itself the commission that the land would be put into produc- the authority to determine where on the farm the home tion post-camp. Te mitigation and oversight by a profes- will be built. sional agrologist, who is there daily, makes me feel quite I am concerned by the degree to which the rights of that confdent that we’ve got a very sound process. farm family, as owners of that private property, are being stripped away and vested in the Agricultural Land Com- M. de Jong: Te minister presumably would agree that mission. Does the minister share any of those concerns? we are talking about something that is not an agricultural [4:10 p.m.] activity but that involves other societal benefts — benefts, in this case, that the government is supportive of and I am Hon. L. Popham: I think, as the member well knows supportive of. For that reason, I believe the ALC came to — or I think he knows — the mandate of the Agricultural an appropriate and reasonable decision. Land Commission is to protect agricultural land and to Te minister, though, will understand that for those give priority to the size, integrity and continuity. I believe observing that decision, where a work camp to house the agricultural land reserve, as a land-use tool, has really workers over an extended period of time for the construc- allowed us, as a province, to maintain the very important tion of a pipeline would be approved, and a women’s shel- food-growing lands that we need. ter that has been located on a property for decades would I think we’ve seen it demonstrated over the last few be evicted…. Does she see an inconsistency there that months, with COVID-19, that those lands are even more might cause people to be concerned and puzzled? important than ever. Te issue of food security is top of mind for British Columbians, and they want to feel com- Hon. L. Popham: Tis doesn’t, in my view, pertain forted that there will be the ability for British Columbia to to the current budget discussion. I will say that the grow as much food as it possibly can to remain resilient women’s shelter is under a reconsideration, so I won’t and to increasingly become more self-sufcient. comment on that. Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 179

M. de Jong: It is very much, I can assure the minister, note. I was listening when she made her comment, and she part of the consideration, going forward, of the organiz- can add to this if I misstate this. In reply to the question ation and the women who have been taken care of and from my colleague yesterday, there was a meeting. found sanctuary at the women’s shelter in Abbotsford. I’ll Now, if the sound went blank on the screen and I missed let the statements and, in this case, non-response speak for something…. But in reply to the question from my col- itself. league who specifcally referenced both the issue and the Te last area I wanted to touch upon, the minister and incident that gave rise to the minister’s comments in front my colleague from Delta have already canvassed in a gen- of the farmers, when it was convenient to do so, she said to eral way, but I will be more specifc. It was a year ago that, them that she had a meeting, and apparently, the meeting a few blocks from where I am sitting now, a group decided was yesterday. to descend upon and invade the family home and farm of Now, if she’s taken other action to address this issue on a neighbour. Tey terrorized them, frightened them. Tey behalf of farm families who are concerned, they’re all ears, came onto the property all in the name of a cause that they and I’m all ears. Now is the time to say it. presumably feel very strongly about. A year has passed. My colleague has chronicled the bold Hon. L. Popham: Te microphone or the sound on the statements that the minister made when confronted by a member’s computer must have cut out, because he did crowd shortly thereafer. Nothing has happened. miss quite a number of things that we’re doing. So I sug- [4:20 p.m.] gest that he go back and look in Hansard. Does the minister deem it acceptable that fully a year afer a family of farmers was terrorized in the way that this M. de Jong: Well, I’m going to be persistent, because I family was, there would be no decision yet on whether or was listening very closely. With respect to the incident that not to prosecute the perpetrators of that crime? took place on Harris Road, where self-described activists descended upon and invaded the home of a farm family, Hon. L. Popham: Well, the member is absolutely wrong I haven’t heard the minister say anything. If she wants to to say nothing has been done. Tis issue has already been correct me, I’m, again, all ears. canvassed. [4:25 p.m.] Has she made submissions to her colleague, the Attor- M. de Jong: Well, I’m all ears. I’m asking about an ney General, to ensure that he knows the importance she investigation, an action that took place, an invasion, a tres- attaches to this? It strikes me that that would be a reason- pass chronicled on television no less. If I am incorrect, if able thing to do. Has she done that? If she has, now would steps have been taken with respect to that investigation to be the time to say so. Is she satisfed — and she hasn’t confront and deal with the perpetrators of that crime, then answered this question — that it would take over a year I’m all ears. Now is the time. to secure a decision from the prosecution service about Te minister purports to stand up and speak in defence whether or not to prosecute this matter? Is she satisfed of farm families. Well, here’s her chance. Because nothing with that? has happened. No decision. Has the minister pursued this matter? If so, what has she done with respect to the farm Hon. L. Popham: Te member knows — or maybe he invasion that took place on Harris Road one year ago? doesn’t know — that all of the individuals on site at that incident were processed by the Abbotsford police, and that Hon. L. Popham: Te member knows very well that this information was brought forward to Crown counsel. I is an RCMP matter. So I have no opportunity to insert have no ability to infuence the speed of decision-making. myself into that process. Te member, I would think, would know that. Other than waiting for that outcome, the ministry has undertaken a M. de Jong: What was the minister doing when she process to try to move forward on making sure that that made that speech at the hotel that my colleague was refer- sort of incident doesn’t happen again. ring to? She didn’t seem to have any difculty at all insert- I went through the steps we’ve taken with the critic, and ing herself into the story when it was convenient to do the member can refer to Hansard. But he’s tried to imply so. Again I ask, what steps has she taken to seek a timely that yesterday was the only meeting that we’ve had. He’s decision, a decision, that would send a signal to farm fam- missed a lot. He might want to update himself when the ilies that their interests are being protected by the law? Blues come out.

Hon. L. Popham: I’ve already canvassed this and M. de Jong: Well, look, I hope this isn’t news to the min- explained what the ministry is doing. Te member can go ister. Farm families are looking for a signal from her as back into Hansard and read that. minister and the government in general — a strong sig- nal — that it denounces those who, in support of whatever M. de Jong: I don’t actually have to do that. I made a cause they may happen to hold dear, believe that the law 180 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020 and the rules don’t apply to them. Tere has been a notice- Hon. L. Popham: I know I can always count on a trade able reluctance on the part of the minister and the govern- question from that member. It’s really nice to see you. ment to make that clear, and it is noticeable to those in the Tis question probably is better suited for the Jobs, Eco- agricultural sector. nomic Development and Competitiveness Ministry. We I would have thought this exchange would have elicited have an MOU with them, so they manage that. from the Minister of Agriculture a strong restatement of I can tell the member that the trade and investment rep- condemnation for the people who purport to engage in resentatives…. Tere are three. We do have South Korea this activity. Te fact that the minister has neglected to and Hong Kong. But there are also people that are working take advantage of this opportunity to deliver that strong when we attend trade shows as a province, as the member condemnation speaks volumes. will know. In 2019-2020, 18 international trade shows I did not ask the minister to infuence the prosecutorial were being delivered in priority markets. decision-making exercise. I asked if she was satisfed, as a Tere’s been, obviously, a major complication with us minister of the Crown, that it would take this long for a attending trade shows. I myself was headed with staf to decision to be made and whether she shared my concern Boston this spring and, of course, because of COVID that about the signal that was sending to farm families. She got cancelled. It’s never been rescheduled as of yet. So we chooses to ignore those questions. She chooses to avoid will have to see how the pandemic afects our representa- answering them, and her avoidance, again, speaks volumes tion at shows around the world, but we still remain with and says much to farm families. our three TIRs in place. [4:30 p.m.] With that, obviously, the minister has an opportunity to B. Stewart: Te minister mentioned three trade rep- respond to my comments, but I will cede the foor to oth- resentatives: South Korea, Hong Kong — and the third ers, I’m sure. market?

Te Chair: Does the minister wish to respond? I can’t Hon. L. Popham: I stand corrected. We have only two, tell if you’re consulting or not. not three: China and Hong Kong. But through the con- solidation process, those representatives will be handled Hon. L. Popham: No, I think I’ve said everything I’dlike through Jobs, Economic Development and Competitive- to say. ness.

B. Stewart: It’s great to be here in Agriculture estim- B. Stewart: In the past, these staf were paid for, I ates, with the diversity of problems that exist in that par- believe, from the Ministry of Agriculture’s budget. Tat’s ticular sector. now going to be reallocated to Jobs. Tat’s what I think Today I want to talk a bit, Minister, about the agricul- you just said. tural exports. I do want to question you a little bit on some I guess my follow-on is that I know that there’s a great of the investments that you’ve made in that ministry in the team within Agriculture that supported these trade shows, past few years. like the 18 you mentioned. I guess I have a couple of ques- I guess, from an overall trade perspective, agriculture tions on that. has had a pretty good run in the last little while, consid- One, is the budget being reallocated? I’m assuming ering that some other things have been beaten down fairly this is coming out of the business development budget severely. Last year the agricultural exports…. I don’t have to support agrifood, industry growth, agrifood business the end of the year number, but it was up over 11 percent. development, etc. I’m just wondering if those funds are I’m sure that that was in part to the staf that were working moving over to Jobs. in those markets for the Ministry of Agriculture. [4:40 p.m.] No doubt the numbers…. Although they’re staggeringly down for many commodities, and products that we sell in Hon. L. Popham: Tanks for the question. It’s a good export markets…. I again see that the products for the frst question. four months are up almost 5 percent. Tat certainly bodes Te Jobs, Economic Development and Competitive- well for agricultural producers that are shipping products ness Ministry will be running this enhanced, consolid- that are not just commodities but specialty products, high- ated department for trade reps who won’t, necessarily, value specialty products that pay for good jobs here in solely represent the interests of agriculture but more British Columbia. of a whole-government approach. Tere will be repre- Well, frst of, I just wanted to ask you…. Is that…? In sentatives that will represent the agricultural interests, 2019 — I just would like to confrm — how many dedic- but they won’t solely be representing agriculture. Tey’ll ated staf that were being supported by your ministry were have other tasks as well. in the export markets, and which markets were they in? Te budget to have those two people in place is going [4:35 p.m.] to be reallocated within our ministry, and that money will Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 181

be put towards supporting more international trade show pandemic, hopefully, move along, we will continue to see work. One of the things that we will have to learn how to our steady incline. do diferently is virtual trade shows. Tat’s the sort of thing that the money will be going to supporting. S. Tomson: I’ll just say very quickly that I was next on the order to raise some questions, but the MLA for North B. Stewart: To the minister: there was a comment you Vancouver–Seymour, who has to move to her own estim- made earlier to the member for Saanich North and the ates, just has a couple of short questions. So I had agreed Islands that agritrade is great if the markets are not closed. that I would let her proceed frst to get her couple of quick Are you hearing…? Or are there markets that I’m unaware questions in, and then I’ll follow her. of that are now closed to British Columbia? [4:45 p.m.] J. Tornthwaite: Tank you very much to my colleague from Kelowna-Mission for letting me butt in on him. Hon. L. Popham: I think I chose my words incorrectly. I’ve got two quick questions for the minister. Te frst Te markets weren’t closed; they were disrupted. Our one, of course, she’s probably anticipating. In a briefng growers were seeing some stoppage in purchasing from that I had with staf on January 30, with regards to the international markets. Tere were barriers as far as delays puppy mill bill, has the ministry…? Tey had not secured of transportation. We saw a signifcant slowdown in the this by January 30, but has something changed? Has the goods that were moving internationally. ministry secured the funding for the registration system for the SPCA to proactively shut down puppy mills? B. Stewart: Okay, just a last question. I would like to quantify the amount of resources that are going to be going Hon. L. Popham: No, unfortunately, we have not. from the Ministry of Agriculture into international trade activities. She said, and I know, the staf in the ministry J. Tornthwaite: I just have one more question, then. supported the people that were in the feld previously. So Te minister probably knows this, but more than half a for this reallocation of resources that’s going to be going on million animals have died in barn fres in Canada since to international trade work, how much is going to be alloc- 2015. Tat’s an average of 100,000 animals burned alive ated to that? every year. Apparently, the Canadian Commission on I know that you have a strong Buy B.C. program right Building and Fire Codes is revising the fre protection now. However, being a front-line agricultural producer for, requirements for farm buildings, but they informed the you know, my lifetime, virtually, I just know that the small, BC SPCA that there was no “strong interest in making pro- independent producers are really an important part to our tection of livestock a code objective.” operations here in the Okanagan Valley. But more import- Does the minister think that barn fres are a serious antly, for many of the commodities — whether it’s farmed enough issue to ensure the protection of livestock is a code salmon, grains, oils, beef — these international markets objective? are vital. Tey don’t want to be seeing the precipitous drop [4:55 p.m.] that we’re seeing in other commodities. What assurance do you have for those larger producers Hon. L. Popham: Tanks for the interesting question. in agriculture that are high-value, especially shellfsh, sea- Tank you for bringing that forward. Te safety of live- food and some of the other products that are very much stock and animals is, of course, important to me, and I do just British Columbia–based? support the objective of protecting animals in that code development. Hon. L. Popham: To answer the question around the budget, our total provincial budget for interprovincial and J. Tornthwaite: I just wanted to say thank you for that, international market development is approximately and I’ll look forward to some action from the minister. $560,000 annually. Trough the CAP agreement with I’ll give that up to my colleague. Tank you very much. Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, we receive an addi- tional $1.93 million in federal funding, which expands our S. Tomson: Good afernoon, Minister. I appreciate the total budget to approximately $2.48 million. opportunity. [4:50 p.m.] Tanks to my colleague from Delta South for allowing a Tis has not changed very much at all. I can say that quick opportunity here for a couple of questions. leading up to the disruptions that the pandemic caused, Tis is around one specifc issue that relates to the craf we are seeing a steady incline in our sales internationally. distilling sector. As the minister will know, that sector cre- Of course, we’ve been scrambling through the pandemic ates jobs as part of our tourism sector and economic activ- to try and regain some of that market, but we expect that ity in our communities. Recently, the government moved once we have a smooth process, once the issues around the to implement a policy change to support the restaurant sector in terms of wholesale pricing. I’m not arguing 182 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020 against that decision at all, but I wanted to ask the minister tor. Tat, to date, hasn’t happened. I’ll pass those com- whether she’s aware of and understood the signifcant neg- ments along, that the minister is prepared to engage on ative impact that that decision is having on the craf distil- that, but I would hope the minister would be out champi- ler sector. oning some adjustments there. I met recently with a couple of distilleries here in my [5:05 p.m.] riding. One distillery, for example…. Tat policy decision Tere was a business technical advisory panel report has a direct negative impact of over $78,000 on that opera- with recommendations in there that could have helped to tion for just two months, in July and August, a peak period ofset some of this. Tose haven’t been dealt with. It has for them. Tese are small family-owned businesses that are been a long-standing process where those recommenda- also struggling through the impacts of the COVID pan- tions haven’t moved forward. demic. Tey have arrangements with small-scale produ- In this time, as they’re facing the same challenges that cers providing the produce for them for the craf distilling small businesses across the province are facing, I would processes — a very signifcant part of a value-added agri- hope that the minister would be advocating strongly for cultural sector, one that I would expect that the minister some adjustments that would help mitigate that negative would be standing up for and advocating for. impact at this critical time for that sector. Firstly, can the minister advise or confrm whether she was aware of the signifcant negative impact that that Te Chair: Does the minister wish to respond, or shall decision is having on the sector? I move on to the next…? [5:00 p.m.] Hon. L. Popham: I can absolutely say that we would Hon. L. Popham: Tanks very much for the question. welcome a meeting with those folks. I’m just going It’s always nice to see the member. We started our careers through to see if we’ve had contact from them over the in politics together. Te other way around but still very pandemic months. I’ll confrm if we have or not, but I meaningful to me. think it is important for us to meet. Tere are a number of decisions that have been made Tank you for bringing that forward. over the number of months that we’ve been seeing the pan- demic wreak havoc on our economy. Tere are some posit- J. Johal: Good afernoon, Minister. ive efects of these decisions, and there are negative efects. I just have a few questions on the Food Security Task I think the decision that was made was looking at the over- Force report. Did the task force consult with the Agri- all impact of industry and the lif it could give to the res- cultural Land Commission, the ALC, when they wrote taurant industry, the sector as a whole. Tere were con- their reports? sultations that were done, and although people did under- stand that there would be some negative efects, a decision Hon. L. Popham: No, they did not. was made for the greater good. Tat being said, I believe it’s really important for me to J. Johal: Can the minister say why they did not? hear from the distillery sector. I would like to ofer my deputies to meet with the distillers to make sure that we Hon. L. Popham: Tank you for the question. I can’t understand the full impacts that they’re feeling. answer the question on why they did or did not. Tey didn’t consult with the ALC. It was an independent com- S. Tomson: I think they would appreciate that. Te mittee, and I wasn’t directing them to where they should minister should be aware that the sector has reached out consult. Now that the secretariat is within my ministry, and has asked for that engagement and so far has not heard there is very much a process that involves close consulta- anything. It’s, in my view, disappointing, when you have a tion with the ALC. sector that’s closely linked to the value-added side of the agriculture industry, that those discussions haven’t already J. Johal: I’m just trying to get a sense of the last answer. taken place. Tis report could have major impacts on agriculture I would think that the minister would be advocating for throughout this province. You brought the issue of food some policy adjustment or change that would help ofset security. Many other members have as well. Was that in the that negative impact on the sector. Tis is a sector that terms of reference? Did the minister insist that it be in the went to bat, in terms of a response to the COVID pandem- terms of reference? I’m trying to understand why, if this ic, by pivoting to produce badly needed hand sanitizer at a type of report is going to have a signifcant impact on agri- critical time and that has really stepped up. Now they’re in culture in this province, the ALC wasn’t consulted. a situation where they’re facing that negative impact. [5:10 p.m.] I would have thought the minister would have been a strong advocate for some further adjustments that would Hon. L. Popham: As I stated before, this is an inde- help ofset that very signifcant negative impact on the sec- pendent committee that came forward with a list of re- Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 183 commendations. Tey made their own decisions on whom eries. Nursery work is backbreaking. If this can reduce they talked to and consulted with. Like any report, these some of the labour in a nursery around really difcult jobs, are recommendations. then I think that’s what we can be looking at. We need to We now have a secretariat that will investigate the needs know what the agritech sector’s needs are. We don’t know of agritech around the province, if there are any missing that yet. links and if there is a way that we can encourage more Te work that Deputy Shoemaker is taking on is really agritech to be operating and to have its home within our creating an inventory, fguring out what the needs are and province. Now that the secretariat is underway and collect- also what the wants of British Columbians are. All that ing information, there will be a close working relationship work is underway, and I think it’s quite interesting. Te with the Agricultural Land Commission. work that he’s coming back with shows that we probably know less than we do know. It’s important work that needs J. Johal: Certainly, the minister has talked about food to be done before we can move forward. security. Te member from the Green Party, when asking a few questions a couple of hours ago, was talking about it, J. Johal: Tat doesn’t answer my specifc question. You and my colleagues. I think it’s all a broad conversation that have somebody who’s looking at it. We have a secretariat. we’re all having. You’ve talked about core values, back scratchers, robots Te four recommendations are quite signifcant. Can and technology — a very broad response to the question the minister tell us whether or not she’ll be accepting and that I asked. supporting all four recommendations? At the end of the We have the four recommendations. You’re looking at day, we’re not talking about 20 or 30; there are just four. them now. When can we expect an announcement on Will she be accepting and supporting those four recom- whether or not you will be accepting those recommend- mendations? ations or whatever plan you have moving forward based on this report? When can we get an announcement? When Hon. L. Popham: As the member knows, the report was can we expect an announcement from the secretariat and written, and it has been received by government. We’re from your ministry? studying all the recommendations currently, but there absolutely have been no decisions made. I think that while Hon. L. Popham: Tanks for the question, Member. we consider the recommendations, it’s very important to Tere are a lot of complex issues at play — identifying know that decisions will be made through the lens of pro- barriers and challenges to agritech, fguring out what the tecting farmland, encouraging farmland but also making problems are that we’d like to solve. It takes a comprehens- sure that we adhere to our core values. ive engagement. We’re some time away from making any We know that through these last few months the pan- decisions, but I can tell you that there is a lot of good infor- demic has made everyone more aware of food security in mation in the report. Tere are a lot of things that we’re British Columbia. Tere are ways that agritech can help looking at and that we were looking at previously to the with the growing of food and with labour around food report coming out. production. We’ve even heard, over the last week, that Tere’s a section around food waste. Tat’s a really there is a proposal for an agritech park out in Abbotsford. important topic worldwide right now. I am happy to say Tat’s not on agricultural land; that’s outside the agricul- that through our Food Hub Network, we have been able tural land reserve. Really, there are a lot of opportunities. to support a company that is creating a wonderful tomato When we say agritech, that still has to be defned. Tere soup out of food waste. Tat’s being used within Vancou- are many, many types of agritech that are already hap- ver. Tere’s a lot to fgure out. I’d like to be able to have a pening on farms in urban and rural British Columbia. date for the member, but I think that’s unlikely for a few We know that there is technology that’s being used to months. help reduce pesticides in vineyards and also to measure the humidity so that pesticide applications and fungicide J. Johal: Tis is my fnal question before I hand it over applications can be less. back to my colleague from Delta South. [5:15 p.m.] [5:20 p.m.] Agritech is used in dairies right throughout the Fraser Te minister had talked about agritech developments Valley. Tere are some dairies that are operated by cell and various technologies. I think it’s wonderful that some phones now. Te health of those dairy cows has improved of these developments may be moving forward, but ulti- because they get their health checked more ofen. Tey mately, they’re just developments in specifc communities milk on demand, and they even have enjoyable back rather than a broad provincewide public policy to really scratchers that they can approach at any time. allow our farmers to make a living and to really introduce Agritech is everywhere. When we think about it as many new farmers to the land as well. addressing labour issues, there is an amazing company I just want to read one portion of the Food Security that has created a robot that actually moves plants in nurs- Task Force report and ask the minister if she agrees with 184 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020 this assessment, because I think it’s core in regards to how the percentage back to a rancher when he has foods or we move forward. It’s on page 12. It’s about ensuring that trouble. But the whole AgriStability, Minister, I believe, in “there is a place to grow food and support emerging talking to my ranchers, needs to have some new regulatory agritech industries by examining land use….” regime in it. It is not helpful to the ranchers. It’s action A. It says, under the report, that they wish to I’m asking the minister. When will she take a good look “allocate up to a maximum of 0.25 percent of the province’s at the AgriStability program and help these ranchers so agricultural land reserve, ALR, for a broader category of they are not in dire straits every second year? use essentially categorized as agricultural-industrial. Factors in siting this land include lower soil classifcation, Hon. L. Popham: Great to see the member. I miss see- class 4 to 7 only; proximity to existing transport corridors ing all the faces from the Legislature. Tanks for being and services; and potential for clustering agri-industrial here today. Good question. uses near other non-agricultural zones.” [5:30 p.m.] Does she agree with that particular assessment and that I’m happy to say that we haven’t rejected anybody for particular recommendation from the committee? Tat’s AgriStability in 2020. If the member has a particular case, my fnal question. I think we should meet, and my staf can address the par- ticular issue that you’re bringing up. Tere were payments Hon. L. Popham: Tank you for the question. made in 2019, using AgriRecovery, for fooding. Te 2020 Te member knows that as far as the agricultural land fooding will be addressed with our new, enhanced reserve goes, there are a number of competing interests AgriStability program. We’ve done extensive outreach to that would like to see themselves on that land. I prefer to growers and ranchers. Tat outreach has resulted in about look at all options. We don’t know where agritech needs to a 40 percent increase in participation to these programs. go, because we don’t understand fully the requirements of We’ve created a B.C. initiative. supporting it. Although I continue to constantly advocate at the fed- As far as do I support that statement, I don’t know eral-provincial-territorial table with my provincial col- enough about that statement to say yes or no at this point. leagues, my territorial colleagues and the federal minister, Te work that Deputy Shoemaker is doing will bring back we made a decision that we would have to have a B.C. those answers so that we can fgure out which direction we initiative this year to try and address some of the issues want to move on. But I do know that there is a proposal that we’ve been pushing hard at that larger table and that out in Abbotsford for an agritech park. Quite large, not on weren’t moving fast enough. Out on our own, we actually agricultural land. And I think that’s where we would really removed the reference margin limit, we changed the com- like to focus. pensation rates, and we’ve been able to get money out the door much quicker. We’ve allowed for interim payments I. Paton: Madam Chair, I think, at this time, I will and increased those interim payments from 50 percent up turn the proceedings over to the member for Cariboo- to 75 percent. Chilcotin. We have, signifcantly, made changes. Tat being said, more needs to be done. Tere’s an October federal-provin- D. Barnett: Tank you to the member for Delta South cial-territorial meeting, where AgriStability is one of the for giving us this opportunity. topics. Our ministry continues to put forward what our Te frst topic that I would like to ask a few questions needs are in British Columbia, and we hope to see more on is fooding. As you know, we had fres in 2017, we had changes in October, but I can say that we’ve made changes foods in 2018, and 2019 wasn’t too bad for some, not too on our own while we wait for the federal table to move. good for others. Now, in 2020, we have massive food- ing again, and our ranchers are in dire straits. Te dif- D. Barnett: Minister, it all sounds good. But when culty is…. I’ve had two or three of them in my ofce who you’re a rancher and you’re fooded — not once but twice have applied for assistance. Tey don’t qualify. Te reas- or three times — and you look at the criteria…. A lot of on they don’t qualify is AgriStability has so many restric- them don’t even qualify. Some may be getting the money tions on it. People may have made money in 2018 for out there quicker. It’s certainly not the ones that are in my the frst time in two years. And 2019 — their income tax ofce. Tere need to be changes made. statements aren’t ready. For example, a lot of our ranchers are mom-and-pop [5:25 p.m.] operations. In a lot of them, one of them has to go to Along comes 2020. Tey got fooded out completely, work part-time outside the ranch. Well, automatically, and they get rejected because they made too much money you don’t qualify for these programs. If you have a cor- in 2019. But this is 2020, where they may not survive. poration — a lot of people put their businesses in cor- When will the minister…? I see in the budget process porations — you don’t qualify. — I’m on the Finance Committee — that there’s talk about Tese are serious changes that need to be considered, or re-evaluating the amount of funding that is allowed under we will not have any more mom-and-pop operations. Rest Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 185 assured. I live with them, and I know what they’ve been when they need the help. All the workshops in the through since 2017. world…. I would suggest that we take a better look at get- Minister, I would be more than happy to sit down with ting help on the ground as quick as possible when these yourself, your secretary or one of your deputy ministers incidents happen to help these people out, not a workshop. and give some good old-fashioned Cariboo input as to the I’d like to move on with the next question I have, and it’s needs of these people that are working out on the land. around abattoirs, my favourite topic. We had a great time [5:35 p.m.] in the Select Standing Committee on Agriculture. We went out, and it was very interesting talking to people all across Hon. L. Popham: Well, I would never say no to some the province, and I thank you for that opportunity. good old-fashioned Cariboo advice. Tat’s for sure. We’d My question is around abattoirs. Te Ds and Es we spent look forward to having a chat, MLA Barnett. lots of time on. Tere were lots of recommendations, lots Just so we’re speaking the same language, if you work of of support. How many D and E licences have been giv- your farm or you have a corporation, that has no bearing en since this report was fled in September of 2018 in the on your eligibility for AgriStability. I think what you might province of British Columbia? be talking about is disaster fnancial assistance. So those would be two diferent programs. Hon. L. Popham: Member, I totally appreciate the work We can defnitely take the specifc examples of the that you did with the standing committee. Tat was the ranchers that are having those difculties and just work frst project that the Select Standing Committee on Agri- through our programming to see what they qualify for and culture, Fish and Food took on, and it’s the frst time it was what they don’t qualify for, and then at least we’ll all be on active in many, many years. Having the committee go out the same page. and look at what the needs are for local slaughter was cru- cially important to me, and I think the work that was done D. Barnett: You are correct. It also is in the disaster by the committee was excellent. program. It is also…. Some of these regulations are in the We’ve been able to take those recommendations…. AgriStability program too, because I’ve got the papers on We’ve implemented many of them, and we’re still working my desk. So I would be more than happy to have a meeting on that. We made some changes just a couple weeks ago. with your staf and sit down and discuss it. Te member asked how many D and E licences have been Te other issue we have is that with the devastation that issued since the report was submitted. Of course, the has happened to these ranchers over the past few years, member must know that once the report was submitted, they’re exhausted. And the paperwork and the hours that anything that we change or move forward on still takes they’ve put into this…. It’s great to keep…. We have lots a bit of a consultation process with local government, of people in ofces and things, but it sure would be nice if regional districts, etc., because they’re an important part of there were more people on the ground to go out and work the puzzle as well. with these people one-on-one, because I can tell you that I Let me tell you that in 2019, there were 23 applications am very concerned. in total. Te Ds and Es in 2018…. Tere were 28 applic- We talk about food security. I am very concerned about ations and 11 approved so far for class E. Class Ds have the ranching industry in my riding and, I know, in some had 11 applications in the Port Alberni area, where we’ve others in the future, and we certainly cannot aford to lose added a new area that’s allowed to have them. Tere have these ranches. So another request to the minister is: let’s been…. Okay, just so you know how popular these also talk about getting some help on the ground for these changes have been, 2019 saw only 23 applications in total. people, when it comes to all of this paperwork that they Since this January, we’ve already had 28 applications. Tat’s continuously have to fll out. what I’m trying to say. [5:45 p.m.] Hon. L. Popham: Member, I know that you know this, Te changes that we’re making are encouraging people but we do have a staf person in Williams Lake. We also to apply, and I think that the foundation that the commit- have a team of people who would be very glad to walk tee gave us has allowed us to move forward, making sure people through all of their paperwork. In fact, we can ofer that there is more local meat production in the province. — and I think, maybe, it’s a pretty good idea — to have a workshop that we do through the B.C. Cariboo Cattle- D. Barnett: Tank you, Minister. Some of the issues that men’s Association. We can actually have a team of people came up and recommendations that were made…. Your working on people’s paperwork if that would help. ministry, along with other ministries such as Health and [5:40 p.m.] other ones, put together, more or less, a cooperation. Has that been done so that the regulations are easier to be met? D. Barnett: Tank you, Minister. I don’t think work- Te second part of that is the inspectors. Who does the shops are going to help, Minister. We’ve had them before. inspection department lie with? Is that still with Health, or When a disaster strikes and people are in dire straits is 186 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020 has the ministry cross-referenced together and made that D. Barnett: Yes, it is the federal inspectors that we were easier for people to access? short of last year. Tis year I know that the ranchers in this region have got to drive a long ways to the slaughter- Hon. L. Popham: As far as the inspection goes, cur- ing. Te same problem existed before COVID. Tey have rently Health still inspects for Ds and Es for rural to book fve, six months ahead of time to get a space for slaughter, and Agriculture inspects for As and Bs. We are slaughter. It is a big issue. It was last year, and it was the having active conversations right now with people that are year before. It’s basically maybe not getting…. It’s fne in involved in slaughter to make sure, as we move forward, some regions, but in this region, there is a serious problem. that we’re getting things right. I think that you’ll be able to I have a whole bunch of other questions. I know we’re see more changes in the next while. short of time. I have colleagues that have other ques- tions. So what I will do is put them all in writing and D. Barnett: How many more inspectors have been send them of to the minister. Hopefully, I can get some hired both for Health, for Ds and Es, and for the federal responses later. inspectors for the As? How many more have been hired Tank you very much, and thank you to the member for in the last year? Delta South. [5:50 p.m.] C. Oakes: Tank you to the member for Delta South for Hon. L. Popham: Tanks for the question. providing us this opportunity. As far as the health authorities that do the rural I share the minister’s passion and enthusiasm for agri- slaughter inspections for Ds and Es, we don’t track the culture and believe that it’s a signifcantly important number of inspectors that the health authorities have. As piece of economic recovery for our small businesses in far as the Agriculture Ministry, we are fully stafed. the province. In fact, we made an agreement, when the pandemic frst I have a few specifc questions on behalf of Cariboo began, with the federal government. If the federal govern- North constituents. Te frst builds on what the member ment came up short with needing inspectors, or we did, for Cariboo-Chilcotin had mentioned. We still have signi- we could lend each other inspectors, and that was to cover fcant ranchers that have been impacted by the 2017-2018 of vacancies due to COVID. So if somebody was sick and wildfres. Now they have been fooded out since April. in isolation, we could cover the federal government of, or Much of Cariboo North has either been impacted directly vice versa. by fooding or on food watch, and we continue to be in I think we have a pretty nimble program. I haven’t had that position. It continues to rain. a discussion on whether or not that agreement will con- For many of the people from the Nazko area who were tinue, but it seems like it worked really well during this impacted by the Plateau fre complex, the frst message or pandemic. item that I’d like to raise to the minister is that I’m deeply concerned that they’re not going to be able to get hay out. I D. Barnett: Tank you, Minister. appreciate the minister’s comments of holding some work- We were short of inspectors last fall. So my question shops for the ranchers, but like the member for Cariboo- was: how many inspectors were hired prior to the pan- Chilcotin, the specifc types of paperwork that the ranch- demic? Tis is before the pandemic. We were short of meat ers are required to fll out are in diferent aspects or difer- inspectors for class As. So I would like to know how many ent ministries that a workshop just wouldn’t assist. were hired prior to COVID. Te frst that I’d like to raise is…. I have several ranchers that were impacted, like I said, during the Plateau complex Hon. L. Popham: I hope I’ve got this right. If not, I can fre. Mostly in the Nazko Valley area, but it extends down give it another try, Member. through the Narcosli area. I’m just going to read what We didn’t have any reports of having to deny any inspec- was sent to me. In 2017, their B.C. assessments were chal- tions due to not enough resources, so I’d be interested to lenged. Teir land and their ranch was burnt so bad that know more about that from your perspective. I know that there is no soil lef. Te house and outbuildings were saved the select standing committee report recommended a dis- from fre-smarting their property. cussion on increasing resources, even in rural British Col- In 2018, they were fooded out on their land. In 2019, umbia, with increasing resources with health authorities. their assessment went up by 49 percent, but then they had I’m not sure if that’s what the member’s getting at. to go back and appeal, which they did win. In 2020, their [5:55 p.m.] assessment came back, and it went up 136 percent. So We don’t keep track of the health authority inspectors, again, they had to appeal. and as far as I know, we didn’t have any shortages on our Is there a way that the minister could work with B.C. end. I’m wondering if that was a federal shortage, but the Assessment to support these ranchers so that they don’t member could maybe give me a bit more information. have to go year afer year and appeal these assessments on deeply impacted areas for ranchers? Like the member for Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 187

Cariboo-Chilcotin said, they have been so devastated by base on that other issue, we’ll gather the details from you year afer year of fres and now foods. To go through and on this one as well. have to prove, each year, their impact is very, very prob- lematic. C. Oakes: Perfect. Tank you very much, Minister, for [6:00 p.m.] that. I appreciate that. I know we all want the best for our agricultural sector. So I appreciate that. Hon. L. Popham: I really appreciate the member bring- I have two more questions. I know there are folks that ing that question forward. I think probably the best way to are following me, and it’ll help get them ready. proceed is for my staf to reach out to the member. Togeth- I have two questions that come directly from the Ques- er we can work with the associations to try and put for- nel Cattlemen’s Association. Te frst question is ward a case to B.C. Assessment. I think the member has…. around…. Most, if not all, permits of renewal, permits for We will defnitely need the particulars on each case. range tenures, water licensing and licensing have now been I think, in general, the more that we can work together moved to having to go online. Te challenge we have is to advocate for agricultural needs with B.C. Assessment…. that many of our rural areas do not have access to broad- I don’t see any downside to that. Let’s work together on band Internet. Even through FrontCounter British Colum- that case. bia, they’re directing all permitting right now down to one single front-line ofce, I believe, in Williams Lake. So the C. Oakes: Tank you to the minister. I appreciate the backlog has been tremendous. opportunity to work with you on that. Te frst is…. We’ve got to fnd a solution so that areas Te second piece that I think we’re going to require that do not have access to broadband or connectivity…. some assistance from the minister with is…. Te other We have to fnd a way so that folks can do the permitting. challenge we’ve had this year, with the signifcant spring Te question is…. Te licensing process, even though freshet that we’ve had, is that we’ve lost a signifcant it’s mandatory, has been taking three to four years for some amount of road networks in our region. Two particular who have registered and who are still waiting for their roads that lead into agricultural communities have detours water licences. Tey registered three or four years ago. that have been put in place on forest service roads. Tey’re waiting for the registration. Now they’re starting to Te challenge that we have is that we can’t get cattle get billed. Afer two years, they continue to get billed, year liners in on those four service roads, and we can’t get hay afer year, for applications, but they still haven’t received in either. While we’ve had push-back, on the federal side, their water permits. Now they’re starting to receive letters saying that the cattle liners can travel on the grades of in the mail telling them that it’s mandatory and that they these detour forest service roads, the cattle liners are say- had better get their water wells licensed. ing it’s not safe for the animals to be doing such. So they’re Te challenge becomes…. I know that this will probably refusing to do that. be through a diferent ministry, but I think it’s important In many instances, to get hay into these areas…. Te that this minister understands the delays. roads are single-lane industrial forest service roads. So Many in our agricultural sector have done everything again, we’re having difculty in trying to fnd people to within their power to meet the requirements that the gov- bring the hay in. We’re heading into the fall, and I know ernment has put forward. Tey have tried to put their per- that we’re going to have challenges with getting animals mits through. Tey’ve done that three and four years ago. back from range on some of these detour routes. Tey continue to wait for the permitting process to hap- We have been working with EMBC. If we could get pen. Tey get billed, year afer year, on wells that haven’t some support from the minister to work closely with gone through the process. Now they’re getting letters from EMBC…. I think it will be required. I think we’re going to the ministry that suggest that they haven’t done something have a very difcult fall for our producers, on getting their that they, in fact, have. animals back from range onto their properties. For those Is there any comment or suggestion on these permitting who weren’t able to get their animals out to range, we’re processes and how we can either streamline it better, going to have to fnd feed somewhere. For many of them, provide better support or fnd a diferent solution? Right I do not think they’re going to be able to get hay of this now it’s just not working. year because of the weather that we’ve had. So we’re going [6:10 p.m.] to need some help. [6:05 p.m.] Hon. L. Popham: A great question and not something that we’re not aware of, for sure. Te problems around Hon. L. Popham: To the member, this sounds like we broadband access are ongoing, but it is being improved probably need to get those details, as well, from her. Ten through the Ministry of Citizens’ Services. Unfortunately, I think this is going to require a conversation by our min- it’s not instant. But they are working on it, and we are abso- istry with EMBC, with the Ministry of Transportation and lutely aware of the challenges that it brings when there with FLNRORD, so why don’t we…. When we’re touching 188 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020 are online registration processes and rural B.C. can’t access and has heard of Island Good. Vancouver Island Economic them. So very aware of that. Alliance is the group who came up with the idea. Tey fun- We are working with B.C. Cattlemen’s and FLNRORD ded the initiative itself over the last year or so, and they to streamline the water-tenuring process. Tat’s ongoing truly believe — and I agree with them — that they could right now and a priority, for sure. We know that there is a move it along faster and further with some additional gov- backlog, and this unfortunately…. We’re happy that people ernment funding. are registering, but we’re not happy with the backlog. So George Hanson is the president of the Vancouver Island we bring this forward to FLNRORD, and they are work- Economic Alliance. He sees — and I agree with him — ing as fast as they can. We will certainly remind them how that there’s lots of tourism potential. In fact, they actually important it is. have an agreement with Tourism Vancouver Island to market the brand to tourism organizations. Tey’ve tried C. Oakes: Madam Chair, this is my last question for the to get some funding through the ag foundation, but sadly, minister. they didn’t qualify. Minister, I thank you for that. Perhaps they could also I can tell the minister that as critic for Tourism, Arts suggest maybe not sending out the letters reminding and Culture, tourists love having local products, especially people to register, because it just makes them very frus- from those places that they visit. I know people aren’t vis- trated, and then we get the calls. So I just put that out there. iting as much as we would expect at this time of the year, Around premise ID, I know that the minister worked COVID-19 having impacted things greatly, but the Island hard during the wildfres of 2017 and 2018 to ensure that Good brand really helps to identify those local products. we worked closely with the agricultural sector to make I’m just wondering if the minister has anything that the sure that premise ID was something that the agriculture Vancouver Island Economic Alliance could access through sector supported and bought into. We did have good buy- the ministry to help support this important program, in, and we’re proud of that work. especially now, in the height of a pandemic, where it is Te challenge that we’re hearing now from the cattle- even more fundamentally important that we buy local. men is, in some cases, they are now…. Tey were told, ori- ginally, that it was a one-time setup and would only be Hon. L. Popham: Well, we’ve just recently had a meet- used in times of emergency, such as wildfres, fooding and ing with Island Good. Tey have laid out all of the great earthquakes, but this no longer seems to be the case, as things that they do, and there’s so much that aligns with we have received emails or letters telling us that we have the ministry work that we’re doing. to renew or update the premise ID, along with letters, in Tey did bring up the challenge that they’ve applied some cases, telling us that we will have to register all water to Investment Agriculture for Buy B.C. dollars. Unfortu- linked to the premise ID. nately, we do Buy B.C. as a logo and a support program. I think that, again, this ties into the water licences and We don’t do smaller regional programs, but we did make the backlog there, but now they’re pulling the premise ID the commitment that we would highlight them in all of process into it. We had the buy-in from the agricultural our Buy B.C. social media. So we’re going to work on sector, and I’m concerned that we are going lose that buy- something together in that way, but there are also a lot of in. I think…. Not to speak for the minister, but I’m sure other things that we can work on and that we’re aligned on. that the minister doesn’t want to see us lose that important So we’re going to continue those discussions. work that had been done. So if there is maybe some clarity on why they are tying premise IDs to water licences and M. Stilwell: I appreciate that the minister took time to why they’re making people redo all of that paperwork. meet with those from Island Good and Vancouver Island Economic Alliance and hope that we can see the branding Hon. L. Popham: Very interesting to hear the discus- improve and go forward and ensure that people are spend- sion from the member. It’s the frst that I’m hearing about ing more money, more dollars locally, here on the Island. this. We haven’t heard anything from our stakeholders, so I’m just going to move now on to something that is I will commit to checking into that right away and getting more focused on jobs and the economy. I’m just wanting to back to the member. Te premise ID program is some- know from the minister…. You know, you’ve visited many, thing I believe in very much. Let me check in to see what’s many farms, ranches and processing facilities, highlighting happening. your interest in everything from hazelnuts to honey. I also understand that farmed salmon is the largest agri- M. Stilwell: Tank you to the member for Delta South, cultural export in B.C. Could the minister perhaps tell me who has allowed me the opportunity to ask some ques- when was the last time she visited a salmon farm? tions of the minister. [6:15 p.m.] Hon. L. Popham: You know what? I probably couldn’t I’m going to start out today by just asking a very local come up with a date. What I can tell the member is that Vancouver Island question. I know the minister is aware we work really closely with the B.C. Salmon Farmers Asso- Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 189 ciation, and we’ve spent a lot of time together over the ment with where they’re operating. It’s been a very success- last couple years as we’ve worked closely around a process ful process that we went through. in the Broughton Archipelago with nations. So we have a I think it’s probably…. I would say that the state of sal- great working relationship. mon farming is in a better place than it’s ever been over I haven’t been able to get out to a farm recently, but 30 years. Tere were controversies that were building, and hopefully, maybe afer we’re allowed to travel a bit more, I instead of ignoring them, we put forward a process that can do that. brought everyone together. We have new First Nations monitoring that’s going on in the Broughton Archipelago. M. Stilwell: Tank you to the minister. I hope she will I think the process we went through is a success and take that opportunity, when she gets it, to visit a salmon ensures that if there is to be growth, that everybody is farm. When looking at agricultural industries, especially included in the way that growth happens. during what has become a very challenging time now with COVID-19, I believe agricultural industries have the M. Stilwell: Could the minister tell me roughly how potential to increase both production of salmon and also many First Nations people are employed in salmon employment. aquaculture in B.C. today? Could the minister tell me…? When she’s looking at agricultural industries, what agricultural industries does Hon. L. Popham: We don’t have that number available she believe have the potential to increase production and immediately, but it’s probably going to be continuing employment? tomorrow. I can get it to the member as soon as we begin. [6:20 p.m.] M. Stilwell: My understanding is that it’s about 20 per- Hon. L. Popham: It just triggered my memory that last cent. It’s a commonly used number among industry. It summer, late spring, I was actually on the west coast and would seem to me, then, that aquaculture is actually one of spending time with Cermaq, going through their pro- the largest employers of First Nations people operating on cessing plant and taking a trip out to their farms. Tat was the B.C. coast. the most recent one that I’ve done, but I’ve done many in [6:25 p.m.] my life as critic and minister. It may very well be that the industry has the potential to Which parts of agriculture, fsh and seafood may repres- grow production and employment, especially those in the ent areas of growth? Well, in my view, they all do. We are First Nations communities along the coast. Can the min- trying to increase all domestic production, making sure ister tell me how she supports or specifcally promotes the that we’ve got the land base to do that on and that there are salmon farming industry, either through public events or programs that enable goods that are grown and processed how she appeals to the federal Minister of Fisheries over in British Columbia to be marketed within B.C. but also the policies that have, quite honestly, moved towards the marketed outside our province. It’s a really important part engagement and the future of the B.C. salmon farming of our food security plan. industry and, therefore, those First Nations jobs? You will know, as most of us do know in British Col- umbia, that we only provide between 40 and 45 percent of Hon. L. Popham: Well, I think the work we’ve done what we need here. I see the idea of resiliency and food over the last couple of years, with regards to the process security…. Tere’s a big part that we need to increase so we followed in the Broughton and the policies we’ve that we’re growing and producing more, not just so that we brought into place around salmon farming, allow for can feed ourselves but so that we have the opportunities to nations to be very involved in the industry. Or they can feed other jurisdictions. choose not to. It’s a fair process where everybody is sit- ting at the same table. M. Stilwell: While I believe the minister is saying that I think that’s probably one of the best ways to make she believes sustainable food production raises those new sure that everybody has the same potential to expand an opportunities for our coastal communities, she didn’t spe- industry, to have the least controversy within an industry, cifcally say…. I don’t want to put words in her mouth, so and it’s the way that we also authentically address recon- I’d just like to know if she includes salmon farming spe- ciliation. cifcally as an industry that has the potential to increase I thank the member for the question. Noting the production and employment. hour….

Hon. L. Popham: Well, of course it does. We’ve just M. Stilwell: Madam Chair, I have one fnal question, if gone through a really important process in the Broughton we have time. Archipelago — where there are agreements between nations, where salmon farms operate within their territor- Te Chair: Sure, one more quick question. We have ies — to make sure that nations are included and in agree- three minutes till 6:30. 190 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020

M. Stilwell: Tank you, Chair. show last year and was planning to go again this year I appreciate the minister’s remarks, but what I specifc- before the pandemic hit. ally was asking is how she promotes the industry, how she I also advocate…. We were having weekly calls with the advocates to the federal minister about the industry. As an federal Fisheries minister where we discussed all issues of MLA from central Vancouver Island, fnfsh and shellfsh fsh. I few out to Ottawa last December when she was frst aquaculture are important job sustainers and job creators appointed to make sure that I was advocating for the west for the people in my community, and on northern Van- coast interests of Canada. couver Island as well. It is especially critical now, as the I think we’re doing a lot. It’s a very important part of our economy is sufering through this pandemic and from the ministry, and I always have time to meet with and to dis- impacts of COVID-19. cuss challenges that our fshers are having. Specifcally, I’d love to know what the government’s plan [6:30 p.m.] is to support and help these sectors so that they can grow We’ve got enormous challenges right now. Our shell- responsibly in our region and can support B.C.’s economic fsh industry, because the restaurant sector has slowed recovery post-COVID-19. down so much, is having challenges itself, but we’re looking at ways to address some of those challenges, Hon. L. Popham: Well, we support all of the industries constantly advocating for the seafood side of the min- — fsh, agriculture, food processing — in a large way istry, and I will continue to do so. through our ministry. In fact, I can say that the fsh side of I move that the committee rise and report progress on the Ministry of Agriculture is bigger than it has been. We the estimates of the Ministry of Agriculture. actually call our fsh sector…. We have a fsh department now, which we haven’t had for a very long time. We’ve been Motion approved. increasing resources there and staf. We do spend a lot of time talking about the seafood Te Chair: Tank you, Members. Tis committee now sector, whether that’s the salmon farming side, whether stands adjourned. it’s the shellfsh side or the processing side — value- added goods, shelf-stable goods — to make sure that we Te committee adjourned at 6:31 p.m. can fnd new markets. I visited the Boston seafood trade Hansard Services, Reporting and Publishing

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