Tird Session, 41st Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday, March 14, 2018 Afernoon Sitting Issue No. 104

THE HONOURABLE , SPEAKER

ISSN 1499-2175 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable , OBC

Third Session, 41st Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Darryl Plecas

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Training...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Attorney General...... Hon. , QC Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of State for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens’ Services...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ...... Hon. Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy...... Hon. Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ...... Hon. Minister of Health ...... Hon. Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Minister of Jobs, Trade and Technology...... Hon. Minister of State for Trade...... Hon. Minister of Labour ...... Hon. Minister of Mental Health and Addictions...... Hon. Minister of Municipal Afairs and Housing...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Arts and Culture...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Ofcial Opposition...... , QC Leader of the Tird Party ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Clerk Assistant — Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ...... Susan Sourial Sessional Law Clerk...... Loredana Catalli-Sonier, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Penticton Abbotsford-Mission ...... Simon Gibson Bains, Hon. Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton ...... Hon. Darryl Plecas Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Michael de Jong, QC Beare, Hon. Lisa (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Boundary-Similkameen...... Linda Larson Begg, Garry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Guildford –Deer Lake ...... Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal)...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Katrina Chen Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... –West End ...... Chen, Hon. Katrina (NDP)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Chilliwack...... John Martin Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack-Kent...... Laurie Troness Chow, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fraserview Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke –Burke Mountain...... Joan Isaacs Coleman, Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Hon. Selina Robinson Conroy, Hon. Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Courtenay-Comox ...... Ronna-Rae Leonard Darcy, Hon. Judy (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley ...... Davies, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... ...... de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West ...... Dean, Mitzi (NDP)...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Esquimalt-Metchosin...... D’Eith, Bob (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola...... Dix, Hon. Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway –North Tompson...... Donaldson, Hon. Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Tompson ...... Eby, Hon. David, QC (NDP)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Kelowna–Lake Country...... Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Steve Tomson Farnworth, Hon. Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam ...... Fleming, Hon. Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay East ...... Foster, Eric (BC Liberal)...... Vernon-Monashee Kootenay West ...... Hon. Katrine Conroy Fraser, Hon. Scott (NDP) ...... Mid Island–Pacifc Rim Langford–Juan de Fuca...... Hon. John Horgan Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) ...... Cowichan Valley Langley...... Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Langley East ...... Glumac, Rick (NDP)...... –Coquitlam Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Bob D’Eith Heyman, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Hon. Lisa Beare Horgan, Hon. John (NDP) ...... Langford–Juan de Fuca Mid Island–Pacifc Rim ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Leonard Eugene Krog Isaacs, Joan (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... James, Hon. Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Nechako Lakes ...... Johal, Jas (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Queensborough Nelson-Creston...... Hon. Michelle Mungall Kahlon, Ravi (NDP)...... Delta North New Westminster ...... Hon. Judy Darcy Kang, Anne (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake North Coast...... Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) ...... Nanaimo North Island ...... Hon. Claire Trevena Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal)...... Shuswap North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Tornthwaite Lee, Michael (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Leonard, Ronna-Rae (NDP) ...... Courtenay-Comox Parksville-Qualicum ...... Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Peace River North...... Ma, Bowinn (NDP)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Peace River South...... Mark, Hon. Melanie (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Penticton...... Martin, John (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack Port Coquitlam ...... Hon. Mike Farnworth Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–North Tompson Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Mungall, Hon. Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Prince George–Valemount...... Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)...... Saanich North and the Islands ...... Paton, Ian (BC Liberal)...... Delta South Richmond-Queensborough ...... Plecas, Hon. Darryl (Ind.)...... Abbotsford South ...... Linda Reid Polak, Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Richmond-Steveston...... Popham, Hon. Lana (NDP)...... Saanich North and the Islands...... Ralston, Hon. Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich South...... Hon. Lana Popham Redies, Tracy (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Shuswap ...... Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond South Centre Skeena ...... Rice, Jennifer (NDP)...... North Coast Stikine ...... Hon. Doug Donaldson Robinson, Hon. Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Cloverdale...... Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal)...... Skeena Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Jagrup Brar Routledge, Janet (NDP)...... Burnaby North Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Guildford ...... Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Newton...... Hon. Harry Bains Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Surrey-Panorama...... Hon. Jinny Sims Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey South...... Simpson, Hon. Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Whalley...... Hon. Bruce Ralston Sims, Hon. Jinny (NDP) ...... Surrey-Panorama Surrey–White Rock...... Tracy Redies Singh, Rachna (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Vancouver-Fairview ...... Hon. George Heyman Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna West Vancouver–...... Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal)...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. George Chow Stone, Todd (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–South Tompson Vancouver-Hastings ...... Hon. Shane Simpson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Kensington ...... Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kingsway ...... Hon. Adrian Dix Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Langara ...... Michael Lee Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Hon. Melanie Mark Tomson, Steve (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. David Eby, QC Tornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Andrew Wilkinson, QC Troness, Laurie (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack-Kent Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Trevena, Hon. Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vernon-Monashee...... Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond North Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Hon. Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (BC Green Party) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake ...... Hon. Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Yap, John (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ......

Party Standings: BC Liberal 42; NDP 41; BC Green Party 3; Independent 1

CONTENTS

Wednesday, March 14, 2018 Afernoon Sitting Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members...... 3483

Introduction and First Reading of Bills...... 3485 Bill M206 — Reducing Waste Act, 2018 J. Johal

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 3485 Journée de la francophonie N. Simons Wildfre preparedness C. Oakes Women in Business Awards in Surrey R. Singh Kelsey Serwa and soccer dome project in Kelowna B. Stewart Indigenous law program R. Kahlon Overdose response in Surrey S. Cadieux

Oral Questions...... 3487 Overdose deaths J. Tornthwaite Hon. J. Darcy S. Cadieux Evidence-based decision-making and quarry proposals S. Furstenau Hon. G. Heyman Monitoring of prescription opioids T. Stone Hon. J. Darcy Addiction prevention education in schools J. Isaacs Hon. J. Darcy Monitoring of prescription opioids and role of Mental Health and Addictions Ministry A. Wilkinson Hon. J. Darcy Hon. J. Horgan

Ministerial Statements ...... 3492 U.S. anti-dumping duties on newsprint Hon. J. Horgan A. Wilkinson

Petitions ...... 3493 T. Shypitka R. Leonard

Orders of the Day

Tird Reading of Bills ...... 3494 Bill 2 — Budget Measures Implementation Act, 2018

Committee of Supply ...... 3494 Estimates: Ministry of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development (continued) J. Rustad Hon. D. Donaldson A. Olsen E. Ross L. Troness G. Kyllo Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply ...... 3517 Estimates: Ministry of Environment and Climate Change Strategy (continued) Hon. G. Heyman M. de Jong P. Milobar N. Letnick J. Tegart T. Shypitka 3483

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 14, 2018 today are some of a group of cycling enthusiasts from the Comox Valley who I frst met shortly afer the May 9 elec- Te House met at 1:34 p.m. tion. FORT, short for Friends of the Rails to Trails, pitched a non-motorized recreation trail on the old E&N Railway [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] outside the capital regional district, much like the Kettle Valley line in the Interior. Routine Business Here today to witness the presentation of a petition that they worked on through the summer are Denise Savoie, a Prayers. former Deputy Speaker in the House of Commons in Ott- [1:35 p.m.] awa; Les Anderson; Sherry Durnford; and Mary Jean and Larry Cossman. May the members please join me in wel- Introductions by Members coming them to the House today.

T. Redies: Today in the House we’re joined by Deb Abma Hon. S. Robinson: I have a special guest joining us today and Gordon Matchett from the Take a Hike program. Tis here in the House. His name is Fred Soof. He’s joining us program works with at-risk youth to provide a full-time here today to celebrate Nowruz. Fred is a restaurateur in my alternative high school opportunity. Tey provide adven- community. He came to Canada from Iran in the early 1970s. ture-based learning and community involvement and ther- He worked in restaurants to pay his way through university, apy in conjunction with high school academic requirements. when he was going to school in Saskatchewan, and he soon Over the past 17 years, they’ve helped hundreds of stu- become a chef. Before long, he had an empire of restaurants. dents achieve success, through their program. Tey cur- Fred has always believed in giving back to communities. rently run programs in Vancouver, Kootenay-Columbia and He’s been a very generous man, supporting food banks, Burnaby school districts, and I’m just delighted that they are Amnesty International and refugee groups. He eventually working with the Surrey school district to launch a program made his way to B.C. in 2001 with his family — with his wife, in September 2018. Mary, and his daughter Shireen — opening up Pasta Polo Would the House please welcome Gordon and Deb. in Coquitlam, which is a favourite place for my family and many others in the community, and Club Ilia, which is on R. Kahlon: I want to recognize two guests here. One is my Burnaby Mountain. LA. Raj Virk is here. She does an amazing job as my legisla- Fred is a tremendous supporter of charities throughout tive assistant, telling me what to do, when to do it and how the Tri-Cities. He was a director of the Tri-Cities Chamber of fast to do it. I really appreciate all her work, supporting me Commerce. He was also celebrated and honoured as a Busi- in my work. ness Person of the Year some years ago. He is a spectacular Also, I have some friends, Lionel and Nadene, who are in entrepreneur and a preserver of heritage homes. the chambers, visiting here from Likely, B.C., and I want to I just want to introduce people to Fred through a quote make them welcome. I hope the House can make them wel- that he says quite ofen. He’s a kind, wise and generous man, come as well. and this is something he always says: “I ask myself every day: when I die, how will the community and the people who R. Leonard: In the House today are a number of people worked for me remember me — a businessman who died I’m privileged to introduce. Te frst, the ever-smiling Liz a millionaire or a businessman who contributed and helped Rhodes, from Croteau Beach in a rural area of Courtenay- his community?” Comox, is here today with her mom, Kate Rhodes. Te Would everyone please help me welcome Fred to the Rhodes family holds a special place in my heart. Te voice at House. the other end of the phone telling me the vote count, when I was frst elected to Courtney council in 2004, was Liz’s fath- A. Wilkinson: It’s a great pleasure to welcome back here er, Rob Rhodes. someone known to all of us, not only for his sometimes fam- Also joining us today are Maddie Bentley and her three- boyant dress code but also for his wisdom and insight and month-old son Henry. If you’re ever wondering how the long service to this institution. children of busy women politicians fare, Maddie’s life story [1:40 p.m.] will set your mind at ease. Her mother, Barbara Price, has I would ask the House to welcome the now Member of been a local politician for most of Maddie’s life. Today Parliament for South Surrey–White Rock, the man who Maddie is a bright, successful businesswoman and an avid made the national news for having the most notable dress — actually, I think I should say aggressive — outdoor code in the House of Commons in the history of Canada and recreationalist, following in her father’s footsteps. I believe someone that we are delighted to see back here in this insti- she hiked the West Coast Trail while she was pregnant tution, Mr. Gordon Hogg. with Henry. Speaking of avid recreationalists, also in the gallery Hon. J. Horgan: I certainly want to join with the Leader 3484 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018 of the Ofcial Opposition and acknowledge the triumphant istry. Tey do that for the beneft of our constituents, and return of one G. Hogg from Surrey–White Rock. they do that in conjunction with the staf here in the Legis- He was absolutely a delight to be a colleague with in this lature. Without them, I think none of us would be even House. Although a member of government for almost all of close to being able to do our jobs. We all owe them a debt his time here, he did spend a bit of time in opposition. I of gratitude. think that shaped his character and made him a better per- son. I know that all members are delighted to see him. Any R. Singh: In the House today, we have members from the time Gordie’s in the room, it’s a good day. HeartLife Foundation. Tis organization does amazing work I’ve been trying to get him to play one-on-one with me. to support the patients of heart failure. He gives up about a foot and a half in height, but apparently, Would the House please make them feel welcome. he’s got springs like no tomorrow. One day we’ll have that game of one-on-one. Hon. K. Conroy: It gives me a great deal of pleasure to Te other introduction I want to make is to introduce the introduce one of my MAs, Sarena Talbot, who’s here with her special adviser in my ofce who recently started working lifelong friends, a couple of women that she grew up with, with me, Don Bain, who will be known to many from the who were introduced by the member for Courtenay-Comox. Lheidli T’enneh in northern British Columbia — an out- She, too, grew up in the Courtenay-Comox area. Would the standing young man who’s agreed, I think with some cajol- House please join me in making her most welcome. ing, to come and assist the government of British Columbia [1:45 p.m.] in implementing our reconciliation agenda as well as a vari- ety of other issues. He doesn’t just have one shot in his bag. A. Kang: It’s my great pleasure to introduce two of my He can do many, many things. great friends, Simka Marshall and Steve Beasley, who are Don is going to be a great asset to government. I know all here today with a group of students from Douglas College. members would want to make him very, very welcome to his Tey’re here talking to MLAs about afordability for students new role and also to question period today. and their families. I would ask the House to help me make them welcome. S. Gibson: Today we have students visiting from Heritage Christian Online School and Traditional Learning Academy Hon. M. Mark: I, too, would like to echo the warm wel- in Abbotsford: Rayne Ross, Brandon Grohmann and Nolan come to the students that are visiting the chambers and the Rempel. Tey’re joined by their tutor, John van Vloten. House to lobby government to address things like student Also with us is someone well known to both sides of this housing, which we’ve taken action on in Budget 2018. House, Jason Goertzen from Leading Infuence. I’dlike to give a shout-out to Pierre-Paul Angelblazer from Would the House please give these visitors a traditional the Students Society, Alannah James legislative welcome. from the Victoria Students Society, Prab Bassi from the Simon Fraser Student Society, Jamie Zhu from the Simon Hon. C. James: I frst want to say thank you to the Premi- Fraser Student Society, Sally Lin from the UBC Alma Mater er and the Minister of Children and Families, who reminded Society, Isabella Picui from UBC Alma Matter Society, and me that I have a surprise guest in the gallery today who I’d Caitlin McCutchen from the Kwantlen Student Association be in big trouble if I didn’t introduce. and the chairperson of the Alliance of B.C. Students. Many of us — in fact, all of us — in this House know that Students have been advocating for student housing. Tey we couldn’t do the work we do without the support of people want us to address mental health. Tey want us to address in our lives. I want to say I love you to the love of my life, safety on campus. I look forward to meeting with them this Albert Gerow, my husband, who’s here visiting today. afernoon. Would the House please join me in welcoming them. D. Routley: It gives me great pleasure to welcome my CAs: from Nanaimo, Sarah Miller, from Ladysmith, Cayla S. Furstenau: To echo the theme that we’ve heard a bit Masur, and my LA, Rajmeet Virk. today about the people who support us, we all know in this As people know, in this House, we can’t do the work we House that our success is commensurate with the amazing do without the support of our CAs and our LAs. A few years support that we get from the staf around us. In the House ago I saw a cartoon that was depicting CAs. It was a person today is my assistant, Maeve Maguire, but also the people standing with a dart and a blindfold on. Tey were throw- who support her: Maura Maguire, her mother; Patrick ing the dart at a wall that was covered with little stickers with Maguire, her father; Richard Young, her husband; Susan the names of issues — education, health care, transporta- Dutfeld; and the people who bring her joy — Eilish Young, tion, ferries. Te caption was: “Today I’m an expert in.” And Clodagh Young and Caoimhe Young, her three daughters. throwing at the wall. My support and rock are in the House as well today — Tat’s what our folks in our ofces are expected to do — my husband, Blaise Salmon, and my wonderful, joy-bringing be experts in everything, build relationships in every min- daughter, Eleanor Salmon. Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3485

B. Ma: It is my pleasure, as well, to be able to introduce Even though many of the pods are marketed as recyc- to the House a woman who is one of my most valued volun- lable, in many cases, aluminum lids have to be removed, teers. Shideh Javadi is here with us today. She’s always help- and the cofee has to be removed as well. Tankfully, we ing around at the ofce. She’s always out at events. She’s are seeing more compostable cofee pods now coming always taking care of me. She’s one of the very many women onto market. Tey’re made of plant materials and can bio- in my life who really have cared for me throughout this degrade in fve weeks. entire process. However, even when single-serve cofee pods are com- I would like to take an opportunity to welcome the very postable, the acceptance of compostable plastics in the many members of the Iranian community who gathered Metro Vancouver region is primarily determined by the here in the Legislature today to celebrate Nowruz. I’d like to licensed composting facilities that operate in the region. As wish them a happy Nowruz in advance, which is private businesses, they decide what they accept and what -they do not, based on their individual processing technolo سال نو پیشاپیش مبارک and welcome to the Legislature, which is gies, operational needs and business norms. Te bill today would prohibit the sale of single-use cofee به مجلس خوش آمدید [Persian text provided by B. Ma.] pods unless they are fully compostable. Te act would come I would also like to ask the rest of the House to please join into force four years afer it receives royal assent. me in making them feel all very welcome. Mr. Speaker: Te question is frst reading of the bill. Hon. R. Fleming: I just wanted to add an introduction to a friendly face I see in the gallery. It’s been some time, but Motion approved. my old colleague and friend Denise Savoie is here, who was a distinguished and much-beloved Member of Parliament for J. Johal: I move that the bill be placed on the orders Victoria and is joining us in the gallery. We sat on city coun- of the day for a second reading at the next sitting of the cil for a number of years together. House afer today. It’s great to see her. I think she’s a model for a politician who has retired in style. I understand she moved up to the Bill M206, Reducing Waste Act, 2018, introduced, read a northern part of the Island. Tat can be forgiven, because it frst time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for was to spend more time with her grandkids. second reading at the next sitting of the House afer today. It’s great to see you back in Victoria, Denise. Welcome to the Legislature. Statements (Standing Order 25B)

M. Elmore: I’m very pleased to see students from the JOURNÉE DE LA FRANCOPHONIE grade 11 social studies class of Sir here with us, accompanied by their great teacher Bonnie Burnell as N. Simons: Tank you, Mr. Speaker. Merci, Monsieur le well as other teachers and adults. Tupper is known to just Président. be a terrifc, dynamic school, having not only a great cur- Tomorrow we’ll celebrate la Journée de la francophonie riculum but terrifc sports and community programs, and en la Colombie-Britannique, B.C. Francophonie Day, in really celebrating diversity. advance of international francophonie day, which is celeb- I ask everybody to please give a very warm welcome to rated around the world on March 20. Te celebration will students from Charles Tupper here today. start early in the morning tomorrow, with the raising of the B.C. francophonie fag outside the Legislature. Te fag Introduction and First Reading of Bills brings together the feur-de-lis and the province’s ofcial fower, the dogwood. Blue stripes symbolize the sea, and BILL M206 — REDUCING WASTE ACT, 2018 raised lines represent the mountains. La Journée de la francophonie en Colombie-Britannique J. Johal presented a bill intituled Reducing Waste Act, est une occasion de célébrer les deux langues ofcielles du 2018. Canada. C’est ce qui contribue à l’unité canadienne et permet d’assurer la force de notre pays et de notre province. J. Johal: I move that a bill intituled Reducing Waste Act, Tomorrow British Columbia will honour the contribu- 2018, of which notice has been given in my name on the tions that francophones have made and are making to order paper, be introduced and now read for the frst time. strengthen the social, economic and cultural fabric of our Tere’s no doubt Canadians love their cofee. In fact, every province. Francophones in British Columbia come from all year 1.5 billion single-serve cofee pods are used in Canada. parts of the world, and tomorrow we’ll celebrate the diversity Tese cofee pods inevitably fll up our landflls. of the province’s community. [1:50 p.m.] Te theme of this year’s B.C. Francophonie Day is: “French-language services matter.” “Les services en français 3486 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018

ça compte.” Tere are more than 40 francophone associ- starting the business, Yvonne has made Canadian designs, ations in B.C., working in partnership with the province customer service and personalized shopping an essential to successfully deliver services and programs in French to part of Malary’s service. the more than 70,000 francophones and more than 300,000 Te not-for-proft leader this year was Ingrid Kastens, francophiles in B.C. One such group will be honoured at with the Pacifc Community Resources Society. She leads tomorrow’s event in the Hall of Honour. a multi-award-winning not-for-proft that works with the Je vous invite, donc, à célébrer demain avec tous les fran- most marginalized persons in British Columbia. She has cophones et francophiles de la Colombie-Britannique la transformed the team to be refective of the breadth of Journée de la Francophonie en Colombie-Britannique. gender, age and ethnic diversity. Merci beaucoup. In the corporate leadership category, Rowena Rizzotti, [French text provided by N. Simons.] with the Lark Group, was this year’s winner. A highly suc- cessful health care leader, Rowena has extensive experience WILDFIRE PREPAREDNESS in an executive-level leadership role across multi-site, com- plex health and business environments. C. Oakes: As we head out to meet with constituents over Tis year’s social trail-blazer award winner was Elly Mor- the next few weeks, what is top of mind is how we can ensure gan, at KPU. Elly is an expert in the feld of leadership devel- our people are safe and prepared in the event of another opment, as she has transformed and led a career program for wildfre season. As we head into spring, there are things that women called Career Choices and Life Success at Kwantlen you can do to fre-smart your property. Polytechnic University for 25 years. Do not use bark or pine needle mulches within ten metres In the Indigenous category, this year’s winner was Rox- of your home. Instead, consider using gravel or crushed anne Charles. Roxanne is a mixed-media artist of Straits rock, as it can signifcantly reduce the risk of wildfre. Wood Salish and European descent. She’s an active and proud piled against a house is a major fre hazard. Moving your fre- member of the Semiahmoo First Nation in Surrey, where she wood pile may be a key factor that allows your home to sur- promotes art, language and culture. She’s also a contempor- vive a wildfre. If you have a frepit barrel or a burn barrel, ary storyteller whose goal is to touch, move and inspire oth- please make sure it is placed as far as possible from struc- ers through her work. tures and trees. Keep the area within three metres of a burn I would love the House to congratulate all of the women barrel free of combustible material. of the Surrey Women in Business Awards. A fre-smart yard includes smart choices for plants, shrubs, grass and mulch. Selecting fre-resistant plants and KELSEY SERWA materials can also increase the likelihood of your home sur- AND SOCCER DOME PROJECT IN KELOWNA viving a wildfre. Fire-resistant plants include vegetation with moist, supple leaves that have minimal accumulation B. Stewart: Last month Canadians from across the coun- of dead vegetation and plants that produce water-like sap try joined Kelowna in celebrating our native Kelsey Serwa or resin material. Try to avoid planting cedar, juniper, pine, as she took home gold in Pyeongchang for the women’s ski spruce trees or tall grasses. Grasses shorter than ten centi- cross. Eight years ago in Vancouver, she placed ffh. At metres are less likely to burn intensely. Sochi, in 2014, she placed second. It was only this year when Also, every home should have readily accessible shovels, she fnally clinched the top spot on the Olympic podium. rakes, axes, hoses, sprinklers and ladders to assist in sup- Tat kind of upward trajectory is a result of thousands of pressing wildfres. Keep power lines clear of branches and hours of hard work. But it all starts with a child’s dream, per- other vegetation. haps sparked by a family member, a picture in a magazine [1:55 p.m.] or maybe a flm. Te hard part is cultivating that spark and Common sense, I know, ladies and gentlemen, but please turning it into reality, taking passion for sport and crafing it do a quick check around your property. A full homeowner into an intense desire to hone your skills and strive to be the manual can be picked up at our constituency ofce, or you best that you can be. can go online at www.bcwildfre.ca. Tat same dedication that rewarded Serwa gold in Korea is what took Taya Hanson and the Kelowna Owls to victory WOMEN IN BUSINESS AWARDS IN SURREY last week in the provincial AAA senior girls basketball champions. But the hours of hard work that advance sport in R. Singh: On March 8, 2018, the Surrey Board of Trade our community are not committed by young athletes alone. hosted the ninth annual Surrey Women in Business Awards Parents, coaches and organizers sacrifce as well. Sometimes lunch. Tis recognizes the hard work of Surrey businesswo- it’s not only the youth who dream big. men and their contribution to the community of Surrey. In 2015, the Westside Youth Soccer Association suddenly For this year, there were 18 nominees in six diferent cat- found themselves with far more registrants than spaces, lim- egories. Tis year’s winner in the entrepreneur category was ited by the lack of covered, all-season felds. Gord Wiebe, Yvonne Hogenes, owner of Malary’s Fashion Network. Since chair of the organization, dreamed of the West Kelowna soc- Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3487 cer dome. Pledging $666,000 to fulfl that dream, the West Surrey-Cloverdale; 1,030 overdoses and 56 deaths in Surrey- Side Youth Soccer Association went to the city with a plan. Newton; 2,582 overdoses and 73 deaths in Surrey–Green Now, afer approval from city council, I am pleased to Timbers; 252 overdoses and nine deaths in Surrey-Fleet- announce that the soccer dome is moving forward as the wood; and, in my riding, 251 overdoses and ten deaths. Of Westside sports complex. Whether young or old, all it can the deaths, 185 happened indoors. take is a dream to advance sport in our local communities Tis issue is non-partisan. It’s afecting every community, and get the proverbial ball rolling. every socioeconomic bracket, every MLA’s constituents. Surrey’s fre department is leading the charge in saving INDIGENOUS LAW PROGRAM drug overdose victims with new technology that tracks over- dose clusters and warns when a bad batch of opioids hits the R. Kahlon: I would like to acknowledge that we are street. With help from GINQO, the Surrey fre department is gathered in the territory of the Lekwungen-speaking people, mining real-time data collected through dispatch calls. If, in the Songhees and the Esquimalt . any four-hour period, three overdoses occur within a square [2:00 p.m.] kilometre, it’s fagged and an alert is sent to the senior ofcer As a society and a country, we have a lot of work to do to of the fre department and the chief medical health ofcer of transform the colonial legacy that is present in the policies Fraser Health. As a cluster is detected, extra resources con- and practices in our shared legal system. Tis work is critical verge on that area, and leafets warning about bad drugs can if we want to create conditions of justice and equality for be distributed in the area. Indigenous people, which, I’m sure, we can all agree is long Despite the common belief that most overdoses happen overdue. on the streets, as the data shows, most people actually die in Te Indigenous law program is one of the initiatives and their homes. Our strapped frst responders need all the tools another step in B.C.’s commitment to work with Indigenous they can get to help them be in the right place at the right peoples to build true and lasting reconciliation. Tis com- time. Tis is one of those tools. mitment is anchored by the government’s commitment to What more can be done? Are we as a society and as legis- the United Nations declaration on the rights of Indigenous lators looking at the issue from all sides, or are we con- peoples. Te program was conceived by two of Canada’s centrating our eforts on one or two obvious but necessary foremost Indigenous legal experts, both of whom are at response points? Are we looking at the root causes and the UVic: John Borrows, Canada Research Chair in Indigenous broader data indicators that could lead to other avenues to Law, and Val Napoleon, Law Foundation Chair in Aboriginal attack this most urgent crisis? Justice and Governance. For now, I thank the Surrey fre service and our fre chief, It is truly groundbreaking, the frst in the world. We are Len Garis, for not leaving any stone unturned in fnding honoured to be supporting this inspired calling. Te intens- solutions in our city. ive study of both Indigenous and non-Indigenous law will allow people to work fuently across both realms. It is a Oral Questions vital part of rebuilding the Indigenous law together to meet today’s challenges. OVERDOSE DEATHS Te road to self-determination and justice has been dif- cult for Indigenous people in Canada. Te legal system has J. Tornthwaite: Te Minister of Mental Health and been used to make that journey harder. In 1927, Canada Addictions was appointed on July 18, 2017. Tat month amended the Indian Act to make it illegal to obtain funds there were 116 overdose deaths and a further 509 during the or legal counsel to obtain Aboriginal title cases. Up till 1950, remainder of the year. In January of this year, there were 125. First Nations people were stripped of their Indian status, any Does the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions agree supports they had and the right to live within their com- that the only acceptable result of her ministry is to reduce the munities on reserve if they became a lawyer or obtained a number of deaths? university degree. [2:05 p.m.] I’m looking forward to the day, in the not so distant future, when new Indigenous law degree graduates enter our judi- Hon. J. Darcy: Tank you to the member for her ques- cial system. Slowly but surely, we are seeing progress toward tion. I am deeply honoured to be British Columbia’s frst recognition and reconciliation of Indigenous issues in Brit- Minister of Mental Health and Addictions and, indeed, to ish Columbia. lead the frst Ministry of Mental Health and Addictions in all of Canada. OVERDOSE RESPONSE IN SURREY We all know in this House and in this province that four people a day are dying. Every single one of those people S. Cadieux: In the last two years, there were 367 overdoses leaves behind a father, a brother, a mother, a loved one, a and 20 deaths in Surrey-Guildford; 665 overdoses and 43 dear friend. Te impact of those deaths is unspeakable. Te deaths in Surrey-Whalley; 278 overdoses and 17 deaths in number of families from all walks of life and all corners of 3488 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018

B.C. — so many families, so many communities — have and their souls into saving lives every single day, and that’s been devastated to their core. exactly what we’re going to continue to do until we turn the Tat is why, from day one in our ministry, we hit the corner on what is the worst public health emergency in Brit- ground running. I am so proud that our government com- ish Columbia in decades. mitted, in the September Budget Update 2017, $322 million in order to escalate our response to the overdose crisis. Tat Mr. Speaker: Te member for North Vancouver–Sey- is exactly what we have been doing. mour on a second supplemental. We need to be bold. We need to be innovative. Every day, every week, we are escalating our response. We will J. Tornthwaite: Mr. Speaker, 125 people died from sus- continue until we turn the corner on that death toll and we pected drug overdoses in January, yet there is no accountab- can say in this province that the death toll is coming down ility or attempt to measure progress against this disturbing and, indeed, that people are not dying because of poisoned death rate. drugs on the street. [2:10 p.m.] We are doing everything in our power. We welcome all Will the minister establish performance measures that set suggestions from the opposition. I’ve been consulting with the goal of reducing the overdose death rate? British Columbians and people on the front line, especially families with lived experience, from one corner of this Hon. J. Darcy: I’m not sure what the member opposite province to the other. Tis is not a partisan issue. Tis is missed in my response earlier. We have signifcantly about saving lives, and we will continue to do everything in increased the number of providers who are able to prescribe our power to save lives right across British Columbia. opioid substitution therapy. We have increased by 126 per- cent the number of new patients who are now on opioid sub- Mr. Speaker: Te member for North Vancouver–Sey- stitution therapy. mour on a supplemental. Te other really important part of my mandate is that we need to build a better system for mental health and J. Tornthwaite: Te frst objective of the minister’s ser- addictions care in the province of British Columbia. Tat vice plan is to deliver interventions and support that reduce is an enormous challenge, especially afer 16 years of neg- overdoses and overdose deaths, but the minister has not lect by the B.C. Liberal government of mental health and committed to a single performance measure that monitors addictions care. the death rate. Every single week, every single day, I hear from family Again, will the minister agree that the most important members who have lost their kids due to overdose. Tey performance measure for her ministry is a reduction in the share their stories with me. Tese parents are spending every overdose death rates? waking moment trying to keep their kids alive. Tey also share with me the challenges that they have faced. Tey have Hon. J. Darcy: We have opened dozens of overdose reached out everywhere to try and get help for their kids. prevention sites and eight safe consumption sites across Very, very ofen those supports are not there. British Columbia. We now have naloxone kits available at We need to get to a place in British Columbia where over 1,000 locations across the province, including 80 per- people living with addictions and mental health issues are cent of community pharmacies. Trough our harm reduc- treated with the same dignity and respect and receive the tion measures, we have saved thousands of lives. Te same quality of care as people with any other illness. We’re people on the front lines — the people in community not there yet. Our government is committed to doing that, agencies, the people in those overdose prevention sites, but there is a lot of work to do afer 16 years of neglect by the frst responders — have saved thousands of lives that people on the other side of this House. would have been lost otherwise. We know that harm reduction and saving lives is not S. Cadieux: Overdose deaths in British Columbia rose in enough. Tat’s why we created the overdose emergency January to 125 suspected cases. As the minister said, this response centre, which is working through community means four British Columbians die from the use of narcotics action teams and people on the ground to ensure that afer every day. We hear the stories in our ofces too. we save someone’s life, we are also doing everything in our Does the minister agree that harm reduction and nalox- power to connect them to treatment as soon as possible. one kits will not be enough to prevent the majority of these I can say that we have hundreds more people now who are overdose deaths? providing opioid substitution therapy across the province, and we’re adding nurse practitioners to that list, not just doc- Hon. J. Darcy: If I can just reiterate what I said a moment tors. Te number of new patients who are now on opioid ago, harm reduction is absolutely critical. I know that it substitution therapy, in order that they do not die of over- has become something that people on the other side of the dose, is up by 126 percent. We are going to continue. House have started to criticize — a focus on harm reduction. All of the staf on the front line are pouring their hearts I would say that someone has to be alive if we’re going to be Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3489 in a position to connect them with treatment. EVIDENCE-BASED DECISION-MAKING We do not apologize for focusing on harm reduction AND QUARRY PROPOSALS that saves lives. But is harm reduction enough? Of course not, and that’s why we have also been focused intensely, S. Furstenau: Evidence-based decision-making is not a through our overdose emergency response centre, on con- slogan. It’s an approach to governance that is desperately necting people. Tere are some really good examples of needed across all jurisdictions. At the root of evidence-based this that have been shared with me as I’ve met with people decision-making are processes with integrity, processes that on the front lines. ensure that all information is considered in an objective In Kamloops, for instance, there is a clinic that is connec- manner and — this is essential — without a presupposed ted with the emergency room. When someone is taken there outcome. Getting to yes undermined evidence-based with an overdose, and they’re revived, and they’re willing to decision-making in this province for a long time and has cre- be connected with treatment, that’s done. Te goal is to do it ated mistrust by the public. within an hour but at least within 24 hours, and that’s hap- Te current Minister of Environment has taken concrete pening. Tat’s what we’re focused on now, like a laser beam steps to address this mistrust, with reviews and reforms of — connecting people whose lives we’ve saved with treatment the professional reliance model and the environmental so that they can get on a pathway to hope and a pathway to assessment process. Two applications before these reviews recovery. started are currently in front of this government, and two I repeat where I started. You have to be alive in order to communities anxiously await decisions that could have sig- have a pathway to hope. nifcant impacts. In Squamish, there is an application for a gravel quarry at McNab Creek in one of only three estuaries Mr. Speaker: Te member for Surrey South on a supple- in Howe Sound, an estuary that supports wild salmon and mental. endangered orca populations. My question is for the Minister of Environment. Will he S. Cadieux: In January, 65 percent of overdose deaths commit to looking at all of the evidence pertaining to this occurred in private homes, and the majority of the victims application when making the decision, including the reasons were using drugs alone. why DFO twice rejected this application, and the forthcom- Will the minister accept that those harm reduction pro- ing Howe Sound cumulative efects environmental assess- grams will not solve the problem of narcotic overdoses in ment report? private residences? Hon. G. Heyman: Tank you to the Tird Party House Hon. J. Darcy: Te member is right that 80 percent of Leader for the question and her concern about this issue. Te the people who are dying are dying at home or dying alone. matter, as the member knows, is with myself and the Min- Tat’s why it is absolutely critical that we combat the stigma ister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, as the stat- that means that people are not willing to tell their friends, utory decision–makers. We will be carefully considering all their families, their loved ones that they’re using drugs. of the material referred to us by the environmental assess- Tey’re not willing to talk to them about the fact that they’re ment ofce, as we are duty-bound to do. We will do that. living with addiction. I cannot comment very specifcally on the decision at [2:15 p.m.] this time or the details of the material before us, but I Stigma is also a barrier to people reaching out for care. It’s will note that the EAO held three public comment periods a barrier to them seeking the care that they need in order to and fve open houses during the process. Te review was get on a pathway to hope. I’m very proud that we are work- extended by 115 days to allow sufcient time for public ing intensively. We have a wonderful partnership that’s hap- and working group review and comment on the draf fnal pening right now with the Vancouver Canucks. Many of you assessment report. may have seen the posters, the ads on TV. We are reach- Extensive consultation was held with a range of First ing out in order that all British Columbians understand that Nations with an interest. Once the Minister of Energy, Mines we’re talking about our fathers, our brothers, our drug users and Petroleum Resources and I have made a decision on the and hockey fans. We’re talking about sisters, our fellow stu- project, we will ensure that the entire package, including all dents, our co-workers who are drug users. Everyone who of the decision materials that were considered, along with uses drugs…. our reasons for decision, will be posted on line to ensure a People who use drugs are also real people. Tat’s our mes- fully transparent process. sage. Get informed. Get involved. Get help. Go to stopover- dosebc.ca. It’s critical that we combat the stigma and tear Mr. Speaker: Te House Leader for the Tird Party on a down those walls of silence so that people are not sufering supplemental. in silence, so that people are reaching out to help and so that we’re connecting people to the treatment and the care that S. Furstenau: I thank the minister for his response. they may need. In Campbell River, citizens are also growing increasingly 3490 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018 concerned over the application by Upland quarry for a per- meant that people turned to street drugs. I know that the mit to deposit contaminated soil at their site, which is loc- College of Physicians and Surgeons is now revising some of ated adjacent to Rico Lake, the drinking water source for those guidelines. Campbell River. Te member raises the issue of pain and pain clinics. As Two hydrogeologists, Dr. Wendling and Patrick Consult- part of our strategy going forward, we are certainly working ing Inc., are in agreement that more testing and data are with pain specialists and working with the Ministry of needed in order to fully understand potential hydrological Health and with health authorities in order to increase access connections between the landfll site and Rico Lake so that to pain management services so that people are not forced to it can be accurately determined what risks this site may pose turn to street drugs in order to address what is ofen severe to drinking water and aquatic environments. Tese experts pain, ofen going together with psychological pain, trauma agree there is a potential for movement of water through and intergenerational pain. fractured bedrock underneath this site. I can tell you that our starting place here is that we have My question is again for the Minister of Environment. pain clinics across this province — for which, as a result Will the minister acknowledge the defcits in this permitting of the previous government’s neglect, there are some people process and commit to reviewing these reports and address- waiting as long as two years in order to get into those pain ing the concerns raised by these hydrogeologists? clinics. Tis is part of our strategy going forward. Tere is an [2:20 p.m.] awful lot of catching up to do.

Hon. G. Heyman: Tank you, again, to the House Leader Mr. Speaker: Te member for Kamloops–South Tomp- of the Tird Party for the question. I understand, as son on a supplemental. decision-makers in the ministry understand, the concern over this issue in the Campbell River area. T. Stone: Te minister could take further action on this, I have met, in fact, with the concerned citizens from and she could take action immediately. Has the minister Campbell River, along with Mr. Wendling. I received, along developed any plan to begin monitoring prescription opioid with my assistant deputy minister, a presentation on his fnd- use so that chronic users of prescription narcotics will be ings in his report. Te ministry has both the Wendling referred to pain specialists? report and the Guy Patrick report. Tose reports are cur- rently being reviewed and considered. Te ministry is aware Hon. J. Darcy: One of the things that the member should of the concern, is doing testing, has requested additional maybe go back and take a look at, and that we’re very proud information, and Upland is working on a response to answer of, in Budget 2018 was the commitment to expand primary the ministry’s questions. care teams, interdisciplinary teams across the province, and Prior to any fnal decision, a draf of the operational to ensure that people across B.C. have greater access to certifcate will be shared with stakeholders for comment, primary care teams. which will be their frst chance for comment. Before any Certainly, we see, as part of that strategy going forward, fnal permitting decision, including on stakeholder com- having mental health and addictions specialists who are a ments, there’ll be an opportunity for a second chance for part of that. We are working closely with Pain B.C., working input. Any new operational certifcate will only be issued closely with pain specialists and working with the Ministry once there are sufcient technical reviews, including the of Health in order to ensure that more people across British studies that will be considered, which the member refer- Columbia have access to alternatives to opioid prescription enced, as part of the review. therapies. [2:25 p.m.] MONITORING OF PRESCRIPTION OPIOIDS If the member opposite would go back just a little bit fur- ther in history, back to when the govern- T. Stone: Many people develop a dependency on opioids ment was frst elected, he might recall, as some of his col- afer being on prescribed medications for pain relief. Will leagues, no doubt, know, that it was the Liberal government the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions implement a that, back then, delisted coverage for things like physiother- prescription opioid monitoring program that refers chronic apy, massage therapy and some of those alternatives to pre- prescription narcotic users to pain specialists? scription therapy medication. I think the members opposite need to take a hard look at Hon. J. Darcy: Te issue of addiction to opioids, as we their own record and look themselves in the mirror when know, is a very, very complex issue, and this overdose crisis they’re talking about lack of access to alternatives for pain has many roots. Certainly, one of them has to do with an therapy in the province for people who are sufering today. overdependence on opioids for pain medication. New We’re working on it, we’re redoubling our eforts, but there’s guidelines were brought in by the College of Physicians and a lot of work to do. Surgeons, going back some time now, which were intended to reduce dependence on opioids but also, in some cases, Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3491

ADDICTION PREVENTION EDUCATION munities and have spent time talking to parents who have IN SCHOOLS been seeking out support for their kids, they would know that there are enormous gaps in the system at the present J. Isaacs: To stand a chance of defeating the overdose crisis time. Our system for mental health and addictions and for here in British Columbia, we must begin to better address child and youth mental health is broken. It is broken as a res- the problem holistically. Tat means appropriately address- ult of 16 years of neglect. ing addiction. It is tragic to hear the stories of parents. Tey break my From the $5 million spent last year from the ministry’s heart. Tey break everyone’s hearts to whom they speak. budget and the $10 million this year, how many nurses and Tey talk about all the doors they knock on and all the doors counsellors were hired to increase addiction awareness edu- that are closed to them. cation in schools? Tis is a central part of our mandate as government. We are working incredibly hard on building a better strategy for Hon. J. Darcy: I’m very proud that the approach that this mental health and addictions, starting with child and youth government has taken is, precisely, a holistic approach. Te mental health. We need to get to a place where every door is cabinet working committee, the mental health and addic- the right door and where you ask once, and you get help fast. tions working group, brings together people from across [2:30 p.m.] ministries. We absolutely understand that we need to deal with the social conditions that afect addictions and mental MONITORING OF PRESCRIPTION OPIOIDS illness and that we absolutely have to start early in our AND ROLE OF MENTAL HEALTH schools. Tat’s why, going forward, as we develop our child AND ADDICTIONS MINISTRY and youth mental health strategy, that is going to be an essential piece of it — investing in more mental health pro- A. Wilkinson: I and one of the members of the audience fessionals in our schools. — Mr. Klein, who was formerly with the Ambulance Service We have also invested in expanding the Foundry youth — are probably the only people in this room who have injec- hubs, which are a wonderful initiative. Tese are, really, hubs ted intravenous naloxone into a patient and watched them in communities that serve youth who are most at risk. It’s sit bolt upright, from being nearly dead and deep blue, and a one-stop shop. You walk in the door, no questions asked. come to life. Whether you walk in with an issue related to mental health, Tis is a daily occurrence in British Columbia — whether you walk in with a substance use issue or any other dozens, if not hundreds, of times. Every day four of those issue, you are connected immediately to care, no appoint- patients don’t come back. Tey die. Tis is an emergency ment necessary, and then a wraparound team supports you. that we have dealt with, as a society, for the last three Tey’ve had really important success. We plan to build on years. A public health emergency was declared. An unpre- that in the future. We have been mandated…. A central part cedented access to naloxone was made possible. It doesn’t of my mandate from the Premier is to develop that strategy matter by which side of the House, in terms of being in for child and youth mental health, and the biggest focus government. Also, the opening of supervised interven- there is going to be on prevention and early intervention so tion sites…. Tese have been critical steps to address an that our kids get the support they need early on in their lives oppressive emergency in our society. and so that mild and moderate mental health issues don’t Tere is a very important step, available to this minister, turn into severe mental health issues and, in turn, into sub- that could be brought into efect within weeks. Tat’s a pre- stance use issues. scription monitoring program. PharmaNet has been avail- able. Every prescription flled in British Columbia since 1993 Mr. Speaker: Coquitlam–Burke Mountain on a supple- is available on line. mental. Te obvious question is: working with the regulatory bod- ies — the College of Physicians, the College of Registered J. Isaacs: Additional mental health professionals such as Nurses, the college of dentists — will the minister take this registered psychiatric nurses and counsellors are needed for important next step, which is readily available to her, and school districts so that they can address mental health and implement a prescription monitoring program? It’s so people addiction issues early. Yet looking at the minister’s budget, who have been on narcotics for fve or six or seven weeks are there is no money whatsoever for front-line education and referred promptly to a pain specialist so that they don’t go prevention. down this dreadful pathway toward addiction. Again to the minister, how many registered psychiatric nurses and counsellors have been hired to deal with addic- Hon. J. Darcy: We certainly welcome the Leader of the tion awareness education? Opposition’s suggestions, and I will go back and discuss this issue further with our ministry. It is an issue that we are Hon. J. Darcy: If the member opposite or other members working on, but we certainly take all suggestions, from both opposite have spent time talking to people in their com- sides of the House and from people on the front lines across 3492 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018

the province, very, very seriously. anniversary of the creation of this ministry to ask: frst of I do think it’s absolutely critical that we not use the all, has it accomplished anything that has not been done, overdose crisis to political advantage. We have not done actually, through the Ministry of Health; and secondly, that since we assumed government. I have not done that has a prescription monitoring program been put in place? as the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions. I wel- We’ll be back. come any suggestion, from any member of the opposition, at any time. I have not heard any up until today, so I cer- Hon. J. Horgan: First, I want to commend the Leader of tainly welcome receiving them in this House. As we have the Opposition and his entire team for taking the approach said time and time again, this is a crisis that demands that they did to question period today. It’s not ofen that we have we have all hands on deck. the opportunity to have a genuine exchange of ideas about Tat means both sides of this House. Tat means us a critical issue to all British Columbians. So my hands up to reaching out to businesses, to employers, to trade unions. those on the other side. Tat means bringing community agencies together. It also Too ofen we get caught up, as all members know, in the means that we are working in very, very close partnership hurly-burly of this half an hour in the day. Quite ofen it’s with the First Nations Health Authority because this over- the only time all of us are in this place, and it’s the only time dose crisis is devastating Indigenous communities at an that we can demonstrate our character and our commitment even greater rate than it is the population at large. Indigen- to the people that we represent. Again, my hands up to the ous people are dying at a rate three times higher than the Leader of the Opposition and his team for their line of ques- population at large. tioning today. We are very proud of the partnership that we’ve built with Having said that, I’m fercely proud of the work that we’ve the First Nations Health Authority. It’s about reconciliation been able to do in a short period of time. It was a crisis; it is a in action. We’re working very closely with them and have crisis. All members acknowledge that. We felt, when we were given them the support in order to put in place harm reduc- sworn in as government, that dedicating an individual to be tion projects and overdose prevention projects in 55 First the point person every single day on this issue was the best Nations communities across British Columbia. It’s going to start we could make on addressing the issue. take everyone in this province, working together, to turn the I have every confdence in the Minister of Health that he tide on this horrible crisis. will be able to deliver the services, in cooperation with the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions, to realize pro- Mr. Speaker: Te Leader of the Ofcial Opposition on a gress every single day. I welcome all members of the House supplemental. — the Tird Party, the members of the opposition and the members of the government caucus — to work with all of us A. Wilkinson: I must compliment the minister for taking to address this issue. a positive approach to question period. We have an oppor- I know we all want to get to the same place. Again, if we tunity here to refne, hone and improve our public policy, work together and we keep that in mind over the weeks we’re and of course, that requires substantive answers. I compli- away — that we are all here for the same reason — we will ment the minister for saying she’s prepared to respond to a make progress for the people that we represent and the ones substantive suggestion so that we can move ahead, as a soci- that sent us here to do the good work that we try to do each ety, to address this crisis. Unfortunately, it also raises a point and every day. Today is a stellar example of that. that must be addressed. In my own experience — I’ve worked as a deputy minister [End of question period.] and as a cabinet minister — the knowledge is that roughly 10 percent of the Ministry of Health budget goes into mental Ministerial Statements health issues, directly and correctly. Currently that’s almost $2 billion. Tat is a legitimate expenditure of this govern- U.S. ANTI-DUMPING DUTIES ment. But one must question why we have duplication of ON NEWSPRINT administration, with a ministry with a $10 million budget that delivers no services, with a $7 million budget for exec- Hon. J. Horgan: I rise to make a ministerial statement. utive and support services. Today workers in paper mills up and down the coast have Surely the experience of government over the last 20 years received news that threatens their livelihoods and their com- indicates that we must reduce this bureaucratic duplication, munities. Te United States has yet again imposed new anti- focus the money on front-line services and have the Minister dumping duties on B.C. newsprint exporters. Catalyst Paper, of Health run mental health and addictions services because for example, which creates thousands and thousands of jobs they are delivered through health authorities and the Medic- in British Columbia, is now at risk, and our entire industry, al Services Plan. which creates billions of dollars of economic activity, has [2:35 p.m.] been compromised. Te question obviously arises. We’ll be back on the With the combined countervailing duties that were Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3493 announced today, this means tarifs of over 28 percent for in the same communities not just for access to fbre. Te B.C. uncoated groundwood paper. Our government believes entire community depends upon both of them being there. — and I think on this day of cooperation, I’m going to hear We’ve seen major mill closures in recent years in Prince from the Leader of the Opposition that he agrees as well Rupert, Kitimat and Campbell River, and that afects the — it is absolutely unacceptable that every time the United very heart of those communities as to whether they can States decides to turn and look north, they look north with continue to exist. the view to reduce trade, to put in place barriers. Instead We know that our pulp industry has had a lot of trouble in of working cooperatively for the best interests of both com- recent years, and we know that it’s an industry that requires a munities, they’re working against the interests of British thriving forest industry and a fair and open market in which Columbians. to trade its goods. We now see an American administration Teir recent duties are unfounded. Tey’re unwarranted. which is part of a worldwide move towards protectionism. Tis protectionist activity is not only discouraging invest- Tis is deeply destructive to the Canadian economy and, ment in the United States, but it’s making life very, very dif- particularly, to the British Columbia economy. cult for people in our coastal communities. We only have to look back to the famous Smoot-Hawley My job as leader of the government is to make sure we’re tarifs of 1930 that were the real trigger for the Depression building stronger relationships with our trade partners. I’ve — seven years of utter misery in the 1930s triggered by done my level best, however, to achieve that. I travelled to protectionist trade measures, not by the fnancial melt- Washington in the frst couple of weeks of my time in this down in 1929. ofce to try and build bridges on the sofwood lumber issue. We as a legislature must unite on this issue and make the Ten of course we had just last week another moment of efort to get to Ottawa because this is a national issue. Tere harmony between the government and the opposition with are pulp and paper mills across Canada in virtually every respect to duties on steel and aluminum that were, fortu- province. We must not let the agenda be driven by New nately, carved out by the President at the last moment. Brunswick or Ontario or Quebec. We must stand front and Tis is yet another example directed explicitly at British centre for British Columbia. It is the federal government that Columbia by a protectionist administration that is doing will have the infuence in Washington, D.C., not the govern- everything they can to make life difcult for people in our ment of British Columbia. communities. I think that’s unacceptable, and I think all I would suggest to the Premier and to his government that members, certainly, in this House would agree with that. it’s time for 83 seats in this House to be united behind an I rise today to advise British Columbians that we stand initiative to go to Ottawa. I would strongly suggest that the foursquare with the industry. We will work with industry, Premier, his Forests Minister and his Trade Minister get on with workers, to ensure that we fght aggressively against a plane to Ottawa next week. Members of our caucus would these unfair duties. I know all members of the House will be glad to accompany them and present a united front to the want to join with us to work cooperatively, with the federal government on this issue. approach that happened today in question period, so that we Te GLOBE conference is coming up in Vancouver. Who- can protect jobs in British Columbia and continue to have a ever is meeting with the federal minister from this Legis- robust, dynamic trade relationship with those who are pre- lature, it is incumbent on them to impress upon the govern- pared to trade with us. ment of Canada that this is an issue of the highest priority If the U.S. administration in Washington doesn’t want to because it afects the heart and soul of every forest com- do that, we’re happy to work with Washington state, Oregon munity in this of province. and other members of PNWER and those border states that In the tenor of being constructive in this House, we have have looked to British Columbia as friends, allies and good laid at the feet of one minister an objective and a goal that trading partners for many, many decades and, hopefully, we will want a report back on in the foreseeable future. Tis many decades to come. is another one where we lay at the feet of the government [2:40 p.m.] an ofer to do something very, very constructive for British Columbians. We leave this ofer on the table for the Premier, A. Wilkinson: It’s very important that we address this and we urge him to take it up as soon as possible. issue substantively here today. Te lumber industry in Brit- ish Columbia depends on a number of legs to the chair. Te T. Shypitka: I ask leave to present a petition. most important one, of course, is the production of sofwood lumber, which is usually used in construction. Te second Mr. Speaker: Proceed. one is the pulp and paper industry, which complements the lumber industry, using the scrap wood and the sawdust and Petitions all of the other products to create value out of the forests. Tere are other angles to this, including making waste- T. Shypitka: Te constituents in my riding are very pas- wood products such as pellets, but the key ones are the sionate about the outdoors and the wildlife it represents. pulp and paper industry and the sawmill industry. Tey’re Tere are numerous issues surrounding our back country. 3494 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018

We’ve seen a loss in habitat as well as a sharp decline in our Hunt Troness Tegart ungulate populations, more particularly the deer and elk. Stewart Sultan Gibson I have a petition in my hand here from 668 wildlife-caring Reid Letnick Larson residents from around my riding of Kootenay East that Foster would like to make three key hunting regulations be changed immediately as this is extremely time sensitive. [2:50 p.m.]

R. Leonard: I table a petition of 1,500 signatures from Hon. M. Farnworth: In this House, I call continued the Comox Valley, which is the northern terminus of the debate on the estimates of the Ministry of Forests, Lands, old E&N Railway, now known as the Island Corridor. Te Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development. In the Friends of Rails to Trails petition relates to removing the Douglas Fir Room, Committee A, I call continued debate on tracks and converting the rail corridor into a continuous the estimates for the Ministry of Environment. non-motorized trail for recreation and tourism. Committee of Supply Orders of the Day ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF FORESTS, Hon. M. Farnworth: Bill 2 has been reprinted. It is in all LANDS, NATURAL RESOURCE OPERATIONS members’ binders. I call third reading of Bill 2. AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT [2:45 p.m.] (continued)

Tird Reading of Bills Te House in Committee of Supply (Section B); L. Reid in the chair. BILL 2 — BUDGET MEASURES IMPLEMENTATION ACT, 2018 Te committee met at 2:54 p.m.

Bill 2, Budget Measures Implementation Act, 2018, read a On Vote 28: ministry operations, $473,452,000 third time and passed on the following division: (continued).

YEAS — 44 J. Rustad: To the minister: once again, thank you for Chouhan Kahlon Begg yesterday, for being able to accommodate those questions Brar Heyman Donaldson that we wanted to inquire about from the Ministry of Agri- Mungall Bains Beare culture. Chen Popham Trevena [2:55 p.m.] Sims Chow Kang We’ll start of today with a couple of questions or a little Simons D’Eith Routley bit of inquiry with regards to tenure, shellfsh aquaculture, as Ma Elmore Dean well as fnfsh aquaculture, for which the tenuring compon- Routledge Singh Leonard ents, of course, are within the minister’s purview. Darcy Simpson Robinson Maybe I can start just by asking a couple of simple Farnworth Horgan James questions. How many shellfsh tenures do we have in the Eby Dix Ralston province of British Columbia? As well, how many fnfsh Mark Fleming Conroy tenures are there? Fraser Chandra Herbert Rice Krog Furstenau Weaver Hon. D. Donaldson: For the fnfsh aquaculture, there are Olsen Glumac 125 tenures, but 105 of them are Atlantic salmon fnfsh ten- ures. As far as the shellfsh goes, there are hundreds of ten- NAYS — 40 ures. We’ll get you an exact number. But sufce to say, it’s in Cadieux de Jong Bond the hundreds. Polak Wilkinson Lee Stone Coleman Wat J. Rustad: With regards to the tenures that are out there…. Bernier Tornthwaite Paton I appreciate that you might not have the number for shellfsh Ashton Barnett Yap at your fngertips. I’ll look forward to receiving that when Martin Davies Kyllo you do have it available. How many of those tenures are act- Sullivan Isaacs Morris ively being utilized at this stage, if not all of them? Stilwell Ross Oakes Johal Redies Rustad Hon. D. Donaldson: Of the fnfsh tenures, 65 to 70 have Milobar Sturdy Shypitka fsh in the water. Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3495

J. Rustad: Out of those tenures that are active or those that Let me rephrase that — the process for renewing the ten- are not active, how many are set to expire in the next, say, ures, not the licences. I just want to be sure what we’re talk- two- to three-year window? ing about. [3:05 p.m.] Hon. D. Donaldson: If the member is asking about the land tenures, which are the provincial responsibility associ- Hon. D. Donaldson: Tere’s a rigorous process for ated with the federal licences that have jurisdiction over the replacement of existing tenures. Tere’s information licensing of the fnfsh farms, the provincial land tenures for gathered and taken under review. If any changes have the 65 to 70 that are active…. Te question was: how many occurred, First Nations consultation is part of the process. of those are coming up for renewal over the next two to three Ten a designated statutory decision–maker makes a years? We can at least let you know that 20 of them will be decision on the replacement of the tenure or not replacing coming up at the end of June. the tenure and the length of time associated with that. We’ll get you numbers on the other remaining ones. We’re Tat’s been the standard procedure under the Land Act, just compiling those numbers now. For the other 45 to 50, and we’re not changing that policy. we’ll be able to provide you with that information shortly. [3:00 p.m.] J. Rustad: I thank the minister on that question. I’m glad to hear that there isn’t a planned change for the process of J. Rustad: Tese tenures, of course, have been in place for renewal of those tenures. I’m a little curious about that. many years and gone through renewal for many years. What I’ve got to digress into a little bit of politics on this. I’m is the average length of time of these tenures? It starts with curious, as the letter that went from the Minister of Agri- that question. culture to the sector — in particular, to Marine Harvest — talked about how the tenures may not be renewed poten- Hon. D. Donaldson: On a site-specifc basis, the length of tially. It obviously was viewed as being a bit of a threat. I tenure time for the land tenure that’s under provincial juris- understand that letter did come through the minister’s ofce diction, under my ministry, is anywhere from fve years to 30 with regards to a review, whether by staf or others, before years. As far as the federal fsheries licence, when it comes to that was sent out. the main authority over the aquaculture and what happens I guess the question to the minister is: if there are no in the aquaculture farms, the ones that were mentioned — planned changes to the process of renewal of the tenures, the 20 that come up in June — have another two years on the what was the purpose of that letter? federal licence. Hon. D. Donaldson: Well, I’ll entertain the question. It’s J. Rustad: I want to thank the minister for that informa- removed, I would say, from the budget questions around this tion with regards to those. ministry, but I would like to ofer an answer. It’s that the stat- On the tenure, I understand that the tenures…. I under- utory decision–maker makes the decision about whether to stand the diference between the licensing for the federal replace or not replace the licence. government and the tenures from the provincial govern- I can’t presuppose what the statutory decision–maker’s ment. On the tenure issue, is it common for the tenures to be decisions would be. Tat person makes them, based on the out of sync with the licensing? current Land Act and the policy, and they can’t be fettered in any way. Tat’s the statutory decision–maker’s responsibility. Hon. D. Donaldson: Just a correction on what I informed the member of previously. Te federal licences J. Rustad: Tank you for that answer. I am just noting, expire on the 20 fsh farms, which we have expiring on the through an FOI request, some information that came land tenure side, in 2022 — not two years from now but through. Te letter did go through the minister’s ofce and four years from now. was approved before going out, which is why I felt the ques- Te member asked about the harmonization between the tion was relevant in terms of the minister’s responsibility federal licences and the land tenure licences. We attempt — around the tenures, the tenures being renewed and the to harmonize them. Tat’s the aim, but the assertion that commentary with regard to whether those pens should be they’re not harmonized by the member is probably correct restocked, given the potential issue of renewables. However, in most cases. it’s good to hear that the process is in place. I’m sure that the industry will be interested in knowing that. J. Rustad: Tese licences, obviously, as I mentioned Te minister, on at least one occasion if not more occa- before, have been renewed a number of times. Tey’ve sions, in the media talked about the desire to move to a been in place for many decades now. I guess the question closed-containment system. I am curious whether or not the is…. Tere’s a fairly straightforward process in terms of minister is considering that approach to the tenures and the renewal. Is the process for renewal of these licences chan- issue of tenures moving forward. ging in any way? [3:10 p.m.] 3496 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018

Hon. D. Donaldson: Just to clarify the roles here, the J. Rustad: I’m aware of the requirement for consultation role of my ministry is in tenuring around the Land Act with First Nations. Te question is whether or not the UN for aquaculture initiatives like the open-net fsh farms. Te declaration on the rights of Indigenous people, in the man- aquaculture policy lies within the purview of the Ministry of date letters of every ministry, will change the process of con- Agriculture. In fact, the interest in exploring the possibilities sultation and, if it is to change the process of consultation, to of closed containment, where feasible, is part of the Ministry what extent. What goal is trying to be achieved? of Agriculture’s mandate and of overall government policy. Hon. D. Donaldson: Te United Nations declaration is J. Rustad: One of the reasons why I ask this question — something that we, as a government, have endorsed. It’s a obviously, with tenures coming up, there’s a process going political statement, and it really is about deepening engage- through — is that industry needs to know whether or not ment with First Nations to reach reconciliation. they can be stocking and whether or not they’re going to be Te legal objective, when it comes to First Nations con- at risk. Te Minister of Agriculture was quoted as saying that sultation that exists where my ministry has jurisdiction — the status quo was not good enough. Tat’s why I’m asking which is under the Land Act, in relation to the topic we’re whether or not there are any plans, or whether the ministry discussing here currently — is embarking on deep consulta- will be signalling to the industry that there was potential for tion with First Nations, when it comes to renewal of the ten- changes to the way that fnfsh aquaculture is currently being ures. Tat’s one of the aspects that is incumbent upon a stat- tenured and operated in the province of British Columbia. utory decision–maker to undertake. It’s about creating more certainty, it’s about reconciliation, and I think the applica- Hon. D. Donaldson: Just, again, to emphasize that the tion of the consultative process in the tenure renewal is an restocking is within a federally licensed regime. Tat’s the example of reconciliation in action. responsibility of the federal government. Te tenure process, as far as the Land Act goes, for these facilities is under my J. Rustad: Tanks to the minister on the question. I need ministry. Tat’s the responsibility that we have provincially. to ask this on the record. Te minister has been fairly clear I have met with the industry. We continue to meet with that UNDRIP, or the UN declaration on the rights of Indi- industry on the future of technology when it relates to genous people, is a political statement, but we’ve lots of con- aquaculture. We really welcome those discussions. It’s been cern with regard to free, prior and informed consent and very interesting, some of the progress that’s been made in whether or not that represents a veto by nations with issuing other jurisdictions — in Norway, for instance — on closed tenures and tenure renewals. containment. I just want to ask whether or not the minister is consider- ing providing an opportunity for a veto through the tenure- J. Rustad: It’s interesting. I think the minister’s comments, issuing or tenure-renewing process for fnfsh aquaculture. in particular, were around “where feasible.” Tere has been [3:20 p.m.] one onshore example, I believe, in British Columbia, where the operations for raising the Atlantic salmon were under- Hon. D. Donaldson: Many authorities have spoken on taken, and that has failed. Is the minister considering fur- this topic, and I would be glad to quote one well-known thering that type of an approach, or pilots, with regard to authority in the province, Grand Chief Ed John, who has how fnfsh aquaculture is handled in British Columbia? made it clear that the principles of free, prior and informed consent do not mean a veto. Whenever that has Hon. D. Donaldson: Tat would be aquaculture policy, been brought up, it is essentially brought up in a negative which is under the purview of the Minister of Agriculture. context. I think it can damage the atmosphere that we’re trying to create around investment. So I caution anybody J. Rustad: Along these lines, as well — back to the process who wants to bring up free, prior and informed consent of decision-making around renewing the tenures — how and then follow it or precede it with the word “veto,” does UNDRIP play into the tenuring process, the renewal because none other than Grand Chief Ed John has stated of the tenures? Will that change any particular approach in publicly that that’s not the case. terms of the engagement with First Nations? What we’re trying to do here is reconcile with First [3:15 p.m.] Nations in a broad way and create more certainty around investment. Specifcally, the topic that we’re discussing here Hon. D. Donaldson: How the United Nations declaration is the jurisdiction, through the Land Act, that this ministry may or may not apply to the federal licensing I can’t com- has over making a decision about replacing tenures when it ment on, but the related impacts of the Land Act tenures comes to fsh farms. currently involve — and have, in past licence applications — First Nations consultations. Legally, First Nations must J. Rustad: I believe it was Chief Bob Chamberlin — it may be consulted in the process of the statutory decision–maker have been someone else — who said that the current oper- making a decision on the replacement of existing licences. ations do not have their consent, in the north end of Van- Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3497 couver Island. Tose are the operations, I believe — the 20 Once a decision is made for siting in a general sense by licences that we’re talking about — that are up for renewal in the federal government, then we have the ability through the very near future here, in June. our tenure system, through the Land Act, to work with the Te reason for asking the question is that obviously, there federal government to make minor relocation decisions seems to be some diference of opinion with regards to what and conditions — for instance, how close to a fsh stream that may mean, which is why I asked the minister for clari- one of these facilities is actually anchored once the general fcation. I’m pleased to hear that, in terms of clarifcation. site is determined. We can issue conditions around where I do have a few other questions with regards to this. the attachments to the land or the anchors in the water are However, at this time, I’d like to ofer an opportunity for the located. member for Saanich North and the Islands to be able to enter Tose are the kinds of authorities we have under the Land the debate on fnfsh aquaculture tenures. Act, under my ministry, when it comes to the actual siting of the fsh farms, but the major decision authority is with the A. Olsen: Tank you to the member for Nechako Lakes. federal government about where they’re located. To the minister: in the 2017 election campaign, your party committed to implementing the fndings of the A. Olsen: So the ministry cannot…. Essentially, then, the Cohen commission. One of the primary fndings…. Tere ministry must grant renewal of these tenures if the federal are lots of fndings, but one of the fndings was about the government has licensed them and chosen the site? siting of fsh farms. [3:30 p.m.] Being as you make the decisions about tenures and where they’re allowed to anchor to the ocean foor, will this com- Hon. D. Donaldson: We, as in the province, under the mitment that you’ve made factor into determining whether Land Act under this ministry, are not compelled to grant or not you’ll renew the tenures that are upcoming? a renewal. Tat’s up to the statutory decision–maker, who can grant a renewal or not grant a renewal. But we do have, Hon. D. Donaldson: Tanks for the question. When it under the act, the ability to make mitigative measures. If comes to wild salmon, we’ve made it clear, as a government, the anchoring is going to cause what our scientists decide that we’re very focused on the protection of wild salmon in is environmental damage, we can insist, through conditions, migratory routes. on mitigative measures that will avoid that environmental Now, I have to point out that the primary decision of the damage as a direct result of the anchoring process. siting of aquaculture activities, such as open-net fsh farms Tat’s the level of jurisdiction and of decision-making in the water, is the federal government. We have jurisdiction that’s split between the federal government and the provin- through the Land Act over the anchoring and provincial jur- cial government on this topic. isdiction over seabed and land access to the sites. [3:25 p.m.] A. Olsen: Te minister’s party was very clear that they In the bigger scheme of things, that is a minor jurisdic- would ensure that the salmon farming industry does not tional authority compared to the primary authority over the endanger wild salmon by implementing the recommenda- siting and the choosing of the sites, which is a federal tions of the Cohen Commission, keeping farmsites out of responsibility. Tat’s why we’ve been working to get the fed- important salmon migration routes and supporting research eral government involved to a greater degree than they are at and transparent monitoring to minimize the risks of disease this moment. transfer from captive wild salmon. Tat was the commitment. Tere’s science that’s coming A. Olsen: Tank you to the minister for the answer. Tere forward pretty clearly from the strategic salmon health ini- is some authority that the provincial government has that it tiative that there is disease in the Johnstone Strait fsh farms could exert, based on the vision that the minister, the Premi- and that they threaten the wild salmon fsheries — as in the er and other ministers of this government have stated — a commitment and a commitment to the Cohen Commission. commitment to wild salmon. Presumably, the government — specifcally, this ministry Clearly, the responsibility that the minister’s ministry has — could use its authority over the tenures to enforce what on tenures isn’t a non-authority. Tere is some authorization was said during the campaign and enforce providing safety that the province is required to give, or else we wouldn’t be to the Fraser River sockeye. having this conversation. Can the minister explain that? It appears that there’s an Hon. D. Donaldson: Te member is accurate in saying ability for us, as a province, to grant tenures to anchor to that the tool that we have at our disposal is the Land Act the ocean foor. While the federal government has the main when it comes to how tenure is granted through the province authority for where it’s sited, what role do we have? and that it’s not the tool that addresses the siting. Tat’s within the federal government jurisdiction. We’ve been able Hon. D. Donaldson: I’ll try to lay this out to the member to connect with the federal government on this. We’re not as best I can. happy that we haven’t been able to connect enough at the 3498 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018 minister level and the minister responsible. Tey need to threatened by the fnfsh aquaculture industry, then the min- step up on recommendations around the Cohen, and we’re ister of this ministry — Forests, Lands — can direct the stat- willing to work with them on that. utory decision–maker to not proceed with granting tenure What we’re trying to achieve in meeting with First Nations renewals. who have concerns around fsh farms is getting to certainty and getting to reconciliation and using a consent-based pro- Hon. D. Donaldson: Tank you for the question. Under cess to do that. the Land Act, we have legal obligations and can’t fetter, can’t Tis particular topic we’re discussing here, around the be seen to fetter, the statutory decision–maker. So that’s not replacement of tenure, is an operational consultation. It’s the tool that the member is getting at. something that a statutory decision–maker has within a very Tere could be policy created by the Ministry of Agri- limited framework. Tat’s what’s underway, as well, with our culture when it comes to fnfsh aquaculture. But again, it’s ministry, with the 20-odd tenures that are coming up at the the federal government that issues the fnfsh licences. So it end of June. would take…. Any kind of policy that the Minister of Agri- culture is interested in pursuing in connection to the fnfsh A. Olsen: I believe it’s happened in the past where govern- aquaculture is dependent on the federal government taking ment has created a policy that provided direction to the stat- the same direction and being on board. utory decision–maker as to the vision and the direction the government was deciding to go. A. Olsen: Okay. I understand all that. I understand that [3:35 p.m.] the federal government’s got its fnfsh aquaculture policy and it creates the siting and it grants licences. But we can [R. Chouhan in the chair.] also stand up for wild salmon, or we could also decide as a province that we’re not going to allow nets to be attached to I understand that the statutory decision–maker makes the the ocean foor, correct? decision about whether or not a certain item, a certain net [3:40 p.m.] or operation, can be tied to the ocean foor, but the statutory However, the government has to determine, whether it be decision–maker makes those decisions under the direction through the Minister of Agriculture or another ministry…. of the government, of the ministry. We have the ability to say: “No, you can’t attach that to the Am I correct in this statement — that the ministry could ocean foor.” and the minister could create a policy that no new salmon farm applications will be considered and no renewals will be Hon. D. Donaldson: If there’s some type of environment- given due to the Cohen Commission; that if wild salmon are al harm directly related to the anchoring process or whether going to be threatened by the fsh farm industry, they would it’s underwater or on land or there are considerations of be moved; and that under that, this government’s not going moving the fnfsh farm because it is in too close proximity to renew these fsh farms because of the threat that it poses to a stream on land, those are the kinds of conditions that to wild salmon? can be placed through the statutory decision–maker. But again, the overall authority when it comes to aquaculture is Hon. D. Donaldson: Tat scenario is not what we could with the federal government. do under the Land Act. What the member is bringing up is I understand this can be frustrating to some people. I just overall aquaculture policy, and that’s something that’s under have to give a little history. Because it was so frustrating the purview of the Minister of Agriculture. But under the to many people under the previous government, a court Land Act, the legal obligations are very defned. Under the case was launched by concerned parties. Te result of that Land Act, there’s no ability to undertake what the member court case was that in 2009, federal jurisdiction became the has pointed out. primary jurisdiction governing aquaculture industry in I have some answers from a previous question, if you just B.C. waters. Tat was unfortunate. give me an opportunity, Member. Tank you very much. Te Directly as a result of the ignoring of concerns, some of critic asked about the number of shellfsh aquaculture ten- which you have mentioned, we lost control, because of the ures. Tere are 468 aquaculture sites, and those are licensed court case, over much of what you’re talking about. by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans in our waters. On the licence length that is possible under the federal legis- A. Olsen: I guess part of the confusion that’s created is lation for those kinds of activities, the maximum term of that the commitments that were made in the election that we licence is nine years. were going to get a certain type of policy — policy that implements the recommendations of the Cohen commis- A. Olsen: Just to clarify this and get this correct. If the sion, policy that keeps fsh farm sites out of important sal- Minister of Agriculture creates an aquaculture policy direct- mon migration routes. All of this was created with the ing the government to follow the commitments to the Cohen understanding that perhaps this government would have a Commission, should it be determined that wild salmon be diferent approach and, bringing it back to the budget, that Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3499 we would be looking at other sources of revenue and other Go ask that ministry.” opportunities than fnfsh aquaculture. Tat would be the Tis ministry, when it comes to legal obligations, has the expectation, I think, of British Columbians when it came to ability, during these estimates, to answer questions about this government. tenure renewal under the Land Act. I have also been charged What I’m hearing right now is that, in fact, that’s not what by the Premier to be the coordinator when it comes to the is possible — what was suggested in that commitment. Is process that we’ve embarked upon with six First Nations that correct? around fnfsh, Atlantic salmon, open-net aquaculture in the Broughton Archipelago. Tat, perhaps, is where the member Hon. D. Donaldson: Tis government is committed to heard from the Minister of Agriculture to refer questions to protecting wild salmon and the migratory routes. What is myself when it comes to that particular topic. the issue here that you’re bringing up is that the replacement of tenures is not the tool to address concerns that people A. Olsen: If, in fact, the provincial government has, say, might have around the impact of fsh farms on wild salmon. 10 percent or 2 percent of the decision-making of this — Te replacement-of-tenure process is a process under the whatever it is today — why is it that the provincial govern- Land Act that a statutory decision–maker undertakes. ment is leading on that relationship? It leads with the First We are very concerned about wild salmon and protect- Nations. It leads the public to believe that the provincial gov- ing the health of wild salmon. Te Cohen commission ernment has more authority than is being expressed here recommendations — the province has acted on a number today. If the federal government owns everything, why is the of them. A number of them are still in the federal gov- federal government not leading that? Why are they sitting in ernment’s court. But the tool to get there is not the tenure the back of the room as an observer? replacement process. Hon. D. Donaldson: What an excellent question and an A. Olsen: Yeah, you have to, I guess, excuse me then, excellent observation. We have been asked by First Nations because I…. Te frustration here is that on one hand, I’ve to become involved, and to further reconciliation, we have. been told, with the tenures, from other ministries: this is It’s something that they’ve asked previous governments, and the place to come. I’ve been with the Minister of Agricul- previous governments haven’t been getting involved to the ture, and I’ll be going to other ministries as well, but I was extent that we have. led to believe — and, in fact, have been told — that this We have been successful in bringing Department of Fish- was one of the tools that was at the disposal of the provin- eries and Oceans staf to meetings that we’ve had with the six cial government. First Nations, who we met with on January 30, and we have [3:45 p.m.] ongoing eforts. Tat is, I think, where the frustration and the confusion It’s an excellent question. Tis is primarily…. Te member is coming up in this ministry. It was that the government quoted right. I would say it’s 90 percent federal jurisdiction — Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural as a result of that court case in 2009. So far, I think the fed- Development — is going to be making decisions about the eral government is not living up to that majority decision- tenures for these 20 licences which the federal government making authority that they have. We’re continually in touch has already granted. and trying to bring them to the table more. Te expectation and the confusion in the public is…. In relation to the member’s question, the reason we’re Tere’s an expectation that the minister actually has a involved is that the First Nations who have concerns asked decision-making authority on the future of those farms. us to get involved. Indeed, I think one of the fsh farms that we met with had that same expectation, so perhaps some clarifcation E. Ross: To the minister, thank you for your questions to is needed. We keep getting “Go to this ministry” or “Go date. to that ministry” on this. I think that’s where some of the If you haven’t done it already — you don’t have to spend confusion is. too much time here — I just want to have a really quick sum- mary in terms of what goes into renewing a tenure in regards Hon. D. Donaldson: I agree. In the public, there is a per- to fsh farms. ception that the province has way more jurisdiction over [3:50 p.m.] aquaculture activities than, in fact, is reality, especially when it comes to tenure renewal through the Land Act. Aquacul- Hon. D. Donaldson: Tank you for the question. I did ture licensing is primarily a federal responsibility. review this a little bit earlier, but I’ll go into it in more detail However, I have read the transcripts the member had now. I’m happy to go into more detail. with the Minister of Agriculture in her estimates. What Te type of criteria that the statutory decision–maker she pointed out…. Maybe this will help alleviate some of considers when it comes to a decision about renewing or the confusion. I don’t want the member to get the feeling replacing or not replacing a tenure under the Land Act that he’s been given the runaround: “Go ask this ministry. would be things like environmental impacts of the anchor- 3500 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018 ing, related to the fsh farm; the past performance of the reliance, might be referring more to the activities that are proponent when it comes to issues under the jurisdiction covered under the federal government, which is the actual of the statutory decision–maker under the Land Act, such aquaculture licence and the activities that are under feder- as whether docks have been kept up to standard and other al jurisdiction. When it comes to the performance of the maintenance issues that could have an adverse environment- operator within the water column, that lies within the fsh al impact; and First Nations consultation. farm licence. Tose are some of the factors that would go into a decision around replacing or not replacing a tenure under the Land E. Ross: I don’t want to put words in your mouth, and Act. I understand the statutory decision–maker’s role in this respect. What I’m really trying to get at is at the heart of the E. Ross: Tank you to the minister for that. controversy for the fsh farms up in the north end of Vancou- Environmental impacts in terms of anchoring. Tat makes ver Island. As far as I can understand it, the standards have sense, because it’s connected to the land and past perform- been met in terms of past practices as well as past perform- ance. And standards…. When you’re talking about the ance, and in other respects as well, including environment- standards, I’m thinking you’re talking about the standards al impacts regarding anchoring. I’m assuming, as well, that as delivering something under, say, safety standards, for these fsh farms have actually been compliant in terms of the example, or standards related to protection of the environ- conditions you’re talking about — especially, say, something ment as it relates to anchoring, for example. like rental payments. Does it go as far as safety standards? Or does that go Te only outstanding issue I can see that may be in ques- across diferent jurisdictions? Or do you work with diferent tion is First Nations consultation. Am I kind of in the same ministries within the government to actually address these ballpark as the ministry? safety standards? Hon. D. Donaldson: Tank you to the member for seek- Hon. D. Donaldson: No. Safety standards aren’t part of ing further clarifcation on how the Land Act process it, in the way that the member presented. Te past perform- applies. It would be presumptuous of either of us to assume ance I’m talking about is in relation to the anchoring and the that all the conditions associated with the Land Act tenure environmental impacts around the facility but not safety. have been met or not met — that’s what the statutory decision–maker does in reviewing the application for E. Ross: I won’t get into the safety issues I have with replacement of the tenure — but he is right that a part of that fsh farms in relation to unlawful occupation, then. I’ll save review process is a referral to First Nations. that for a diferent ministry. But in terms of the renewal of fsh farm tenures, we were talking about past performance E. Ross: Tat’s what I don’t want to do — make assump- and issues related to the Land Act, including anchoring. I’ve tions. Everything I’ve seen coming out of the controversy of brought this up before in other estimates as well. the north end of Vancouver Island doesn’t mention anything I was glad to see that the House Leader of the Tird Party about objections to environmental impacts, anchoring, past actually brought up evidence-based decision-making. I’m performance in general or standards that were breached in sure that relates to your ministry, as well, when you’re talking the past. I’ve read nothing about non-compliance when it about past performance and environmental impacts. I’m comes to rental payments. sure you’ve got a lot of things to consider when you make Again, I just want to know if the only outstanding issue, in these decisions. But how important is professional reliance, terms of the renewal of the tenure, is the First Nations con- as well as evidence-based decision-making, in your deliber- sultation. ations about renewing tenures for fsh farms? [3:55 p.m.] Hon. D. Donaldson: Well, again, we can’t presume. Tat’s going to be the review that’s undertaken by the statutory Hon. D. Donaldson: Just to be clear, I don’t make the decision–maker when the replacement of the tenures comes decision. Tat’s a designated statutory decision–maker who up. Tat review will cover the topic areas. makes the decisions under the Land Act for whether to We haven’t got to that review yet. I can’t tell the member replace or not replace a tenure. right now whether all the conditions have been met under Perhaps I’ll give an example of what I meant about past the current tenure. Tat’s something that will be assessed by performance. Past performance would be, for instance, the statutory decision–maker. Tis is in regards to the Land whether the operator has been in compliance with the tenure Act, strictly. So what might be some concerns or issues that conditions under the Land Act. Tose might be something are outside of the Land Act and that are happening in the fsh as straightforward as rental payments: have they complied farm water column are federal jurisdiction. with the terms and conditions, under the Land Act, of rental [4:00 p.m.] payments? As far as the specifc tool around the tenure renewal or I believe that the member, if referring to professional replacement process, this is something that’s underway. It’s Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3501

a normal course of procedures and a legal obligation. Tat’ll sultation is required. Deep consultation is required, and part be undertaken by staf within the ministry, a statutory of that follows, I would say, the United Nations declaration. decision–maker. I can’t comment on whether all the criteria But this is an operational consultation process around the at this point have been met or not met. I was just trying to permitting applications and renewals under the Land Act. give an example of criteria that will be evaluated during the Tat’s the focus of that kind of consultation. replacement process. E. Ross: No, I’m not looking for a broader discussion on E. Ross: Tank you, Minister. I think what we’re really try- UNDRIP. I’m looking for a specifc conversation in relation ing to understand…. Even my colleague from North Saanich to the minister’s responsibilities in terms of renewing the was trying to get at this. Tere are so many diferent juris- tenure, because it is in the mandate letter to your ministry. dictions and responsibilities from diferent levels of govern- [4:05 p.m.] ment, including within the B.C. government, whether it be If it’s just an operational consultation to First Nations, if the Ministry of Agriculture, your ministry, Department of I’m hearing that correctly, that poses problems as well. It is Fisheries and Oceans and maybe, to a certain extent as well, probably more specifc if it was under existing rights and title Attorney General. case law. But this is my issue with UNDRIP in general: there I’m just trying to understand the issues related to each is no specifcity to it. Tere is no defnition. I’ve heard from ministry, but as I understand it, the issues kind of cross this government that it’s either a human rights document, a the diferent ministries. I’ll leave it at that. Assuming that blueprint for success — and I can’t remember what the oth- the reports from past reviews are actually public domain, er…. But really, no defnition yet. I’ll go check the website, as well, to see if there were any Just to be clear, the way I think about this is it creates a lot issues regarding environmental impacts or past performance of uncertainty not only for the government and not only for or non-compliance. the fsh farm operator itself but also for First Nations. Ulti- In terms of First Nations consultation…. I understand mately, I don’t want to see First Nations end up in court try- your ministry, just like every other ministry, had a mandate ing to defne UNDRIP, when we’ve spend the last 35 years in to implement UNDRIP. And I’ve said this before. I don’t court trying to defne, with great success, section 35 of the oppose the concept of UNDRIP. I just don’t understand how constitution. it will get implemented in terms of statutory decision–mak- If it’s an operational consultation only, under UNDRIP, ing — or, in the case of this, your job as renewing a tenure do the First Nations in question — those that support fsh for a fsh farm. farms as well as those First Nations that oppose fsh farms — understand that this will only be a consultation on the oper- Te Chair: Trough the Chair, Member. ational side of things, in regards to the renewal of tenures of fsh farms? E. Ross: Sorry about that. I retract that. To the minister through the Chair, is there any up-to- Hon. D. Donaldson: Well, I can agree with one part of date explanation of how UNDRIP will get implemented, in the member’s question. Tat is that it’s unproductive for all terms of consultation in regards to the renewal of tenure parties, First Nations and the provincial government, to end to the fsh farms? up in court over a multitude of issues on the land base, whether it’s aquaculture or forestry or…. Tat’s totally Hon. D. Donaldson: I welcome the question. If the mem- unproductive time. Tat is why we want to embark on a bet- ber is interested in a broader discussion around the United ter process of reconciliation. Nations declaration on the rights of Indigenous peoples, the Te uncertainty was created, in regards to fnfsh aquacul- principles that are encompassed in that, then that would ture, by the previous government not paying enough atten- be an excellent question to bring up during the Minister of tion to concerns that were consistently raised by those con- Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation’s budget estimates. cerned about aquaculture, open-net Atlantic salmon fsh I’ll re-emphasize what I talked about earlier, as far as what farms, in their region. We’re trying to address that and create is going on within the ministry I represent, when it comes more certainty. to the fnfsh aquaculture statutory decision–making. Just As far as the Land Act process goes, the First Nations who going back to the previous comments by the member, we have open-net Atlantic salmon fsh farms in their waters will know that 90 percent of…. Tat’s just a rough estimate, but be part of the replacement process as far as consultation. I would be confdent to say 90 percent of what happens Tat would include First Nations that have a range of views around fsh farm aquaculture in B.C. is under federal juris- on the fsh farm issue. diction when it comes to health concerns with wild salmon and things like that. E. Ross: I wasn’t around for the previous government’s When we have the jurisdiction of this ministry, when it handling of the consultation with fsh farms. But as I under- comes to referrals to First Nations around Land Act tenure stand it, the consultation with First Nations in regards to fsh decisions associated with the anchoring of fsh farms, con- farms will not address the larger issues in relation to what 3502 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018 would usually be addressed under rights and title consulta- company in question here has made tremendous eforts to tion and accommodation case law principles. consult and accommodate. Tey’ll probably have the same questions as I will. Where Tey’ve got tremendous amounts of documents relating will that consultation take place, then, if it’s not going to be to the amount of times they’ve requested meetings through through FLNRO? FLNRO will only consult on operation- emails, phone calls, going to the ofce in person. Tat is a al subjects, such as environmental impacts of anchoring, for portion of what it means to consult and accommodate that’s example, past performance of a fsh farm and other stand- got really nothing to do with the United Nations declaration ards, as well as compliance, including rental payments. on the rights of Indigenous peoples. When the ministry is going to consider the rights and title In terms of the renewal of the tenure, where will the interest or the First Nations interest, whether it be under emphasis be applied to? Will it be applied to the evidence UNDRIP or under existing case law, what will the minister created over the last few years, in terms of the company try- use to weigh, in terms of whether or not they’ve fully ing to consult and accommodate, or will it be more emphasis engaged First Nations and understood all their concerns — placed on the principles of UNDRIP? both supporters and opposers of fsh farms? [4:10 p.m.] Hon. D. Donaldson: Te replacement of tenure is a spe- cifc process under the Land Act, under provincial govern- Hon. D. Donaldson: I’ll cover a bit of ground that I ment jurisdiction. Part of the criteria under what the stat- covered with the critic. I appreciate that the member utory decision–maker considers when he or she is making might not have been able to hear that. And I appreciate the that decision around replacement is a referral and a con- question. sultation with First Nations. It’s not the company’s purview Te United Nations declaration falls in the realm of a or how much consultation the companies have done in political, principled document. So we have a cross-govern- regards to the First Nations involved. It’s part of the legal ment exercise where we are looking at how the UN declar- obligation of the province to refer the replacement applic- ation applies. Tat’s a cross-government exercise. Sorry, a ations to First Nations for consultation. I want to make cross-ministry exercise, not cross-government. Cross-min- that clear. istry. It informs our approach to reconciliation. So that’s, in a What the member is referring to around whether or not broad way, how the United Nations declaration applies. a company has consulted with First Nations on aquacul- When it comes to the consideration under the Land Act ture could apply to a lot of jurisdictional arrangements of the renewal or replacement of tenures, specifcally to do that are under the federal jurisdiction licensing-wise. But with aquaculture and the Land Act, there’s a legally obligated as far as what’s under the authority of this ministry regard- consultative process with First Nations. Tat’s got paramet- ing the Land Act and aquaculture, it’s a statutory ers around it, and it’s typifed as deep consultation. decision–maker’s responsibility to consult with First Tat would be specifc to the impacts of what happens Nations as part of the tenure replacement process. Tat under the Land Act tenure. So consultation around envir- consultation deals within the parameters of what this min- onmentally mitigative measures when it comes to anchoring istry has under its jurisdiction around the anchoring of the into the seabed or the fnal position within a location of the sites and the land access to the sites. fsh farm in relation to streams and things like that. It’s a very determined, defned and legally obligated con- E. Ross: Well, that’s not entirely correct. Tere is a duty sultative process when it comes to the actual tenure replace- from the proponent to actually consult and accommodate ment. But it’s not the overall large exercise about how we’re where delegated by the Crown. In most cases, the proponent approaching reconciliation under the principles of the UN is actually requested to deal with some of the technical con- declaration. sultations that you’re speaking of. More importantly, they’re always delegated to actually address the inescapable eco- E. Ross: Te grey area in between that is what I don’t nomic component of rights and title, and that’s where the understand and how it merges to either deny or approve the consultation and accommodation provisions kick in. replacement of a tenure, for example. If the proponent here is not able to basically provide evid- One is a protocol initiative, basically brought to us by the ence-based proof of their eforts to consult and, where UN. Te other is case law developed in the courts of B.C. and appropriate, accommodate the First Nations in relation to Canada over the last 35 years that’s actually been translated the overall tenure process, or maybe even the overall fsh into policies, regulations and the duty to consult and accom- farm, where does a proponent have an opportunity to prove modate all levels of government. What I don’t understand is their best eforts at engaging First Nations? how the two interact or they don’t interact. [4:20 p.m.] [4:15 p.m.] It goes back to what was brought up in the House today in Hon. D. Donaldson: Defnitely the proponent has a role terms of evidence-based decision-making. Because on one to play. Te best scenario is where there is engagement with hand, when you’re talking about the duty to consult, the the proponent and First Nations and the government and Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3503 also the federal government in matters pertaining to involved. I understand from another answer that the minis- aquaculture and other issues on the land base. ter gave that the federal ofcials were involved in the meet- I have to point out, and I know the member has a per- ings — I think it was on January 30 — with various groups. spective…. I know that I’m not a lawyer, but the ultimate To what extent is the minister looking to further involve responsibility for consultation lies with the Crown. If the the federal government — as well as for future meetings or member has a diferent perspective than that, I suggest he perhaps other meetings since or around the time of Janu- bring it up at the budget estimates with the Attorney Gen- ary 30? Have they met with First Nations leaders and/or eral. employee groups that are currently involved in the fsh- farming process? J. Rustad: Perhaps a couple more questions to wrap up, and then we’ll be moving on from fsh. Just to start of with Hon. D. Donaldson: Tere’s been a lot going on, so I a couple more questions on this, in particular: are there any just wanted to make sure that we’re going to cover it all. current tenure applications, and will the ministry be enter- We have ongoing, regular meetings with the aquaculture taining new applications for tenures for fnfsh aquaculture? industry through staf in my ministry and through staf in the Agriculture Ministry. As well, I’ve had meetings directly Hon. D. Donaldson: Specifcally, I want to clarify…. I in my ofce with Marine Harvest, with the president and believe this was the member’s question, but I want to make CEO of Marine Harvest, and with the Aquaculture Associ- sure on the record that I’m clarifying that tenure applications ation, in B.C., as well. under the Land Act are what I’m responding to. Yes, cur- We do, as well, have ongoing meetings and dialogues with rently under the Land Act, as far as replacement of tenures, the federal government on this topic. We believe, and we are there are 20. correct in saying, that the primary responsibility jurisdic- I think the second part of the question is: must we con- tionally is with the federal government. We’re trying to elev- sider them? Well, it’s our legal obligation to consider the ate their involvement in this particular discussion, so we’ve applications. been working on that. I did have one meeting back in the fall with the federal minister. Te Agriculture Minister, as well, J. Rustad: Te question I actually had was whether there has been in touch with the federal minister. were new applications, not renewal applications, for tenures. We have meetings lined up between the deputy minister in this ministry and the deputy minister in Agriculture. Tey Hon. D. Donaldson: Te member is referring to whether are lining up and meeting with the federal deputy minister there are new applications for fnfsh aquaculture, which as well. Lots going on, on that front. would come through an application to the federal fsheries, a [4:30 p.m.] federal fsheries licence. We’re not aware of any new applic- Since January 30, we’ve been back in touch with the fve ations to the federal government, and we don’t necessarily First Nations bands representing six First Nations overall track that, but we learn about them in due course once in the Broughton Archipelago. We’re coming to an arrange- they’ve been applied to, to the federal government. ment for another meeting on their concerns and proceeding forward together. J. Rustad: I actually meant whether there are new applica- tions for tenures, not for licences. But perhaps I should, giv- J. Rustad: Tank you to the minister for the answer. One en my lack of knowledge of the topic…. last question that I have at this time on this topic is around [4:25 p.m.] shellfsh aquaculture. Are tenures a process that falls afer a licence? I’m seeing a Tere are many First Nations that have an interest in nod from the deputy, so I won’t need to worry about asking acquiring tenures and expanding the opportunity. Te feder- the minister to respond to that. Tank you for that. al government, I think, came out with zoning — sort of go or A couple of other quick questions. Te aquaculture no-go types of areas. I’m wondering if the minister can, per- industry is somewhere between $500 million and $800 mil- haps, provide us with some details with regards to the min- lion. I think it’s one of the largest export products, largest ister’s eforts to be able to issue some of those tenures so that agriculture components, within the province. All of that, of they could then approach the federal government in looking course, is not within the minister’s ministry. for licences. Neither is the fact…. I fnd it interesting that the run up in As you know, shellfsh aquaculture has an enormous the Skeena is troubled this year, and there’s not going to be potential for growth in this province, but the key is to be able recreational. But the run in the Fraser, where it goes by all of to get tenures through a process, and obviously the federal these fsh farms, seems to be okay for this year, and it’s col- government holds the ultimate key in terms of allowing for lecting to be able to have that operation there. production. Regardless of all of that, because obviously that’s not in the I’m wondering if the minister could elaborate on any purview of the minister, I do want to go back to something attempts, or what the minister might be doing with regards the minister said, which was working to get the feds more to those tenure interests, particularly by First Nations for 3504 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018

shellfsh aquaculture. all depends on prices and markets. But those are the num- bers for 2017. Hon. D. Donaldson: I totally agree with the member’s assessment that there is great potential in shellfsh aquacul- J. Rustad: I’m just trying to do the math. I think, given ture, and it’s something that we’re engaged in with First the harvest numbers for the past year, that would represent Nations, in consultation and through reconciliation, as about 5 percent or less of logs harvested from the Crown another avenue to further our relationship and reach recon- lands, then, that would be exported. If that number is wrong, ciliation. We’ve been meeting with Department of Fisheries the minister could correct me on that. and Oceans ofcials to try to move it along on behalf of First [4:45 p.m.] Nations and in conjunction with First Nations. Given that there have been statements in the throne Te member is correct. Until the federal government speech, as well as commentary at the Truck Loggers Con- issues a specifc shellfsh tenure…. Tat’s what triggers our vention by the Premier — and, I believe, some comments, process on the Land Act tenures. So we’re very aware of as well, by the minister — could the minister explain wheth- the situation. I’ve met with a number of First Nations who er or not there will be policies coming forward that would are interested in pursuing those kinds of federal tenures, change the current process for exporting logs? and we’re engaged with them on it and see it as a big part of reconciliation. We need to bring the feds in, in a bigger Hon. D. Donaldson: Te number is 6 percent. Tat way, as well. volume represents 6 percent, in 2017, that was exported of of Crown lands. Te member was pretty close; 5 percent is [L. Reid in the chair.] what he said. We’re interested in looking at mechanisms to ensure and J. Rustad: Tat’ll wrap up my questions with regards to promote that more B.C. logs are processed in B.C. mills. I this topic. I just want to note that we spent a fair bit of time think that’s incumbent on any government. It’s a particular on this, as well as, of course, on cannabis and rural develop- focus of this government that we get more employment out ment. I put that at the front end of estimates because last fall, of every log that comes out of the forest. So we’re interested when we got into estimates, we really didn’t get a chance to in that. We’ve been turning our minds to that. canvass those. We spent more time, obviously, on wildfres As far as the log export dynamic goes, I’m fully aware and forestry-related issues. that log exports have always been part of the business model What I’d like to suggest is that we’re going to move now to for forest companies to be able to maintain their viability forestry questions, but with that, I would ask the Chair for a and also to maintain the afordability of harvesting the entire brief recess to allow staf to change and an opportunity for timber profle, as they must do. It’s part of the business mod- refreshment. el, but the goal of this government is to ensure that more manufacturing happens in B.C. and that those logs that Te Chair: Tis House will stand recessed for ten come out of the forest are primarily used in B.C. mills. minutes. J. Rustad: I think we share a perspective there that it Te committee recessed from 4:34 p.m. to 4:41 p.m. would be great to be able to utilize as much of the fbre as we can within the province of British Columbia. Tere is the [L. Reid in the chair.] goal of trying to achieve that. Tere are mechanisms that could be applied to be able to achieve that. I’m wondering if J. Rustad: B.C., obviously — with part of its coastal forest the minister could elaborate on the approaches that the min- industry, in particular — exports logs to various places, vari- istry is trying in order to achieve the goal that the minister ous other jurisdictions. I’m curious as to what the log export has stated. numbers are and what they’re projected to be over the next year or two. I’ll start with those numbers. Hon. D. Donaldson: Having been in this role now — I’m honoured to be the minister — for approximately eight Hon. D. Donaldson: I’ll provide some numbers that we months, it’s a topic that comes into almost every conver- have for 2017. Te export of Crown lands in 2017 was sation when I have a forest-related delegation in my ofce, approximately 3.6 million cubic metres. Tat was down 1 whether it’s industry, whether it’s First Nations or whether it’s percent from the 2016 export level. Te exports from federal internally amongst staf. private forest lands in 2017 was 2.6 million cubic metres. [4:50 p.m.] Although that adds up to 6.2 million cubic metres of logs We’ve begun those discussions internally. I’ve defnitely that had permits to be exported, six million cubic metres engaged with industry on what they see as the role of gov- were actually exported. ernment, and if there is a role for government, to try to As far as predicting, those are business decisions that I create the conditions so that more manufacturing does take wouldn’t be able to give an accurate answer on for 2018. It place in B.C. Particularly important are the discussions we’ve Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3505

had with First Nations on this topic as well. I’ve had a full briefng on the surplus test, when it comes As the member knows, from his former role as minister, to exporting logs. I’ve had a briefng on the fee-in-lieu that’s many First Nations are extremely interested in opportunities associated with log exports. We want to make sure that those in the forest sector. It’s not only the jobs associated with har- two tools are doing the job that they’re intended to do. Tat’s vesting but also in value-added opportunities. always something that we’re considering, the government is We’ve begun all those conversations, and the outcome, the considering. goal, is to improve the employment situation in the province As far as incentives…. Te member mentioned subsidies, and to try to reverse the trends that we see happening now. which is a dangerous word. We have to be careful around Unfortunately, we’ve seen many jobs disappear in the forest the term “subsidy,” especially in connection to what our…. sector, so our goal is to try to halt that and reverse it and use What”s the nicest word that I can say? Unrealistic segments these discussions that we’ve been having to arrive at mech- of the industry south of the border say that we subsidize, and anisms and outcomes that will create more jobs. we say that we don’t. We’re certain of that, and we’ve won in court cases around that. J. Rustad: Is the minister considering restricting the What I am looking at, with industry, First Nations and export of logs from Crown lands or changing the process by stakeholders, are some of the tools that they’ve put forward. which logs are approved for export, to the efect of restrict- Tere are lots of times that people have an idea. It might ing or delaying the opportunity for export of logs? sound good in a casual conversation, but when you dig down into it, it’s a lot more complex, in trying to achieve what we’re Hon. D. Donaldson: Tank you to the member. Answers trying to achieve. Tat doesn’t mean we’re not going to stop might be more involved now, because we’re into a core area working on it and considering ideas from all those sectors — of the ministry, and it’s great to be able to talk about it. from industry, First Nations and other stakeholders. Te goal is to end up with a reduction in the amount of logs exported from B.C., with the caveat that we know that J. Rustad: Once again, thank you to the minister, espe- export has always been part of the business model in order cially for utilizing the correct terminology. My intention to make businesses fnancially viable. Part of that is the goal here today is certainly not to get the minister or the ministry to not negatively impact jobs that are already existing in the in any sort of pickle in terms of our neighbours to the south industry. We think we can do that, but we’re having discus- and the challenges that we face. But we will be canvassing sions about that now and what some of the tools can be. that before too long, I’m sure, in this chamber. I’m sure that the member knows that, from when he was Associated with the export of logs, of course, is that there part of government, if you are considering anything, you are areas of the province that don’t have processing facilities. pull on one string, and there are fve other strings that are Tere are areas that are obviously difcult to operate in, as attached to it. So we are very aware of that and want to make the member has indicated, where log exports are either the sure that anything that we do consider as mechanisms to only opportunity for forest activity or an important part of ensure that more logs are processed in B.C. does have the that forest opportunity. intended efect, which is to increase employment. Could the minister provide some numbers if he has them available — if not, at a later date would be fne — around J. Rustad: I thank the minister for that carefully worded the amount of volume that is made available for B.C. mills answer, that carefully avoided the question. But that’s okay. through the proportion of logs that are exported from har- I take it, from the minister’s answer, that they are not con- vesting blocks on Crown land? sidering the policies or instruments that would directly be restricting log exports. If I’m wrong on that, if the minister Hon. D. Donaldson: Sorry, we need a bit more clarifca- could please correct me, that would be good. tion on that question. Is it the volume that’s put up on the I certainly support initiatives to look at how wood could surplus test that actually ends up in B.C. mills? Is that the be better utilized, especially for value-added. Is the minister question? Would the member clarify, please. looking at ideas around that particular component associ- ated with log exports that would be market-driven, or is the J. Rustad: I was specifcally thinking about: when a block minister considering the potential for some sort of subsidies is sometimes harvested, there might be 17 percent — or pick or other types of process that would encourage activities to a number — of a block that is scheduled for export that better utilize the fbre that is in question? ultimately pays the freight for the remaining volume, which [4:55 p.m.] would be removed and made available to the local mills, par- ticularly on the coast. Hon. D. Donaldson: We’re considering all tools because [5:00 p.m.] the state of the forest sector right now is in a bit of a state, for What I’m wondering is: out of the 3.6 million cubic metres a lot of factors that I’m sure we’re going canvass throughout that is exported, how much additional wood has now been this discussion. But we’d like to see more jobs out of every made available to British Columbia mills because the export log that’s cut in the forest in B.C. has aforded the companies to be able to go in and harvest 3506 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018

those particular areas? J. Rustad: With that, I’d like to turn the foor over to my colleague from Chilliwack-Kent to ask a couple of local Hon. D. Donaldson: Tat’s a valid question but a difcult questions. one to actually delve into. I believe what the member is asking is how much timber L. Troness: I just have a couple of small issues I’d like to that perhaps would not have been economically viable was bring before the member. made available by the fact that the companies could achieve [5:05 p.m.] a return on exporting 3.6 million cubic metres of wood and We have a constituent who wants to abide year-round on how much, therefore, was made available to mills that his commercial lease. He’s leasing on a commercial basis wouldn’t necessarily have been made available. from FLNRO. My question is: what’s the policy of FLNRO Now, that’s going to take some very site-specifc, block-by- related to people living year-round on commercial leases? Is block — even down to timber mark — kind of analysis. We there a blanket policy, or can this be determined on a case- can undertake that. It’ll take some time, but if the member is by-case basis? interested in that and wants to get to that, that’s work we can undertake. Hon. D. Donaldson: Tanks for the question. It sounds like a particular circumstance. It really depends on the…. I J. Rustad: Te intent of the question wasn’t to create a think the member said a commercial lease. But if he could signifcant workload for an individual to try to track that supply some more details now — or to us in writing, to me in down. Actually, the intent of it was more to see whether the writing — we’ll take it away and get him an answer, I assure ministry actually tracks that information. Obviously, if there him, quickly. Te general nature of the question is a little were some form of restrictions in terms of the amount of log hard for us to dig down into what exactly is the issue. that would be exported or through the various components, in some changes of policy or approaches, that may end up L. Troness: I will try and get some information to the creating restriction in terms of logs that would impact on minister on that. local mills and potential jobs. Te other issue takes a little bit longer to explain. Te Tat’s why I’m trying to see the number. If the ministry Chilliwack River Valley, in my riding, is just an hour away doesn’t track that number, I’m certainly not asking the min- from the most populous areas of the Fraser Valley and istry to start going and digging through all of the cutblock 35,000 quads and motorbikes. Tere are a lot of conficts of applications and trying to track down those numbers. But use in the Chilliwack River Valley. that was the intent of the question. So I’ll leave that. Te ministry built, about halfway up the Chilliwack River If it’s available, that would be great to get. If it’s not avail- Valley by Tamahi Creek, which fows into Chilliwack River, able, if you could also let me know that that’s something that a staging area for of-road vehicles. It’s connected to a forest isn’t tracked, because I would suggest that perhaps it would service road, called Liumchen Forest Service Road, right be an interesting metric that might be worth considering beside the Chilliwack River. It runs parallel to the river, right when having the discussion around log exports and maxim- beside the river. Tere is a community on the opposite side izing jobs. of the river, called Bell Acres. I’m not sure if I’m quite done with the export questions. Coming from this staging area, of-road vehicles tear up But one thing that the minister did mention was creating and down this forest service road. Tey cause a real noise more jobs out of every log. Of course, that was the slogan problem for people right across the river, just a few feet away. out of a campaign in the 1990s, which was the jobs and We have been working with FLNRO for a long time. Tis timber accord. is as long as I have been an MLA. Te former minister came I’m curious as to whether or not the minister is looking at out to Chilliwack, met with all the parties, and the idea was going back to that policy that was from the 1990s or some to build a road out of the back of the staging area up into the form of that policy from the 1990s. mountains, away from the residential area, so we could close the Liumchen Forest Service Road to of-road vehicle trafc. Hon. D. Donaldson: Well, I could talk about the heart- Te process has been wrapped up for a long time in lands strategy or Families First. Tere were strategies there negotiations with the Ts’elxwéyeqw First Nation. It’s sort of that I don’t think worked, and some did work. So there was like fusion power or fying cars. It’s always imminent, but no intent to reference some other time where that phrase it never happens. was used. I was given an update a week ago that, yes, a decision is I think it’s just that people would like to — and what I’m imminent on this. I think it needs some weight, so I would hearing from communities and First Nations and even from ask the minister to lend his weight to the process, to make an industry — see more jobs created from each and every log inquiry and to get a briefng on it. We would like an answer that comes out of the forest sector. Tere’s no reference to — are we going to get an alternative, or are we not? — so that anything other than that. we can move forward with some kind of another plan. I presented a petition before this House with about 90 Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3507

names on it, which is a lot for a residential community in together and go through the details of this particular case. I a more wilderness area. Te people in Bell Acres are really remember the other case and the case where there was the quite fed up with this. I really feel that I need to provide a very unfortunate situation where a resident lost their life. service to them by fnding an alternative for them. Ten I do remember there’s a third property impacted, and I’m wondering if the minister could commit to looking that’s the one that is being referenced here. I ofer the ability into this Tamahi staging area issue, and I could follow up to get together with the member and staf in the room at the with him at a later date. same time, and we can get the further details.

Hon. D. Donaldson: Well, it’s unfortunate this staging G. Kyllo: To the minister, thank you very much. I really area was constructed without the consideration of the noise appreciate that ofer, and I’ll certainly take you up on that, to to an approximate neighbourhood. I mean, I know these review…. It’s Mr. Steve Hobbs, his property on Sunnybrae. issues can be very irritating and aggravating. Defnitely, I’ll I think we all appreciate that increased logging activity commit to having staf give me a full briefng on it. does increase water fows through diferent watersheds. [5:10 p.m.] Another community — Swansea Point in my riding, on I’m informed that a resolution is nearly upon us. I’m not Mara Lake — is very concerned. Hummingbird Creek had going to reference fying cars or fusion, but I take the mem- a signifcant debris fowback in 1997. It basically took out ber’s comments into consideration that it’s been a while. I Highway 97A for a number of days, until it could be put back hope we can provide him with an answer pretty quickly together. It caused some signifcant harm to the community. — not just him but, through him, to the residents that are We saw a repeat event in 2012. I’m very happy, actually, impacted. to have been able to work with the previous Minister of I want to go back to the previous question on commercial Transportation, the member for Kamloops–South Tomp- leases. I have a little bit of additional information to impart. son, to actually replace the culvert that was under Highway When it comes to commercial leases, there’s not a blanket 97A with a signifcant upgraded bridge and some additional policy about residency. I think the member used the word remediation work to the creek to actually improve the water “abiding” — a person living at the commercial lease. It varies fow through that course. depending on the circumstances, but again, if you’d like to Te residents, however, are still extremely concerned supply the detailed situation, we’ll get the person an answer. about continued logging within the Swansea Point water- shed. Last spring, I know that the previous minister had…. G. Kyllo: Last year was a very challenging year in We had some discussions, and there were some general dis- Shuswap, where we had a number of debris fows. I actually cussions around the opportunity to provide some additional lost a constituent, Mr. Roy Sharp, due to a debris fow that rigour with respect to the amount of modelling and the destroyed his home. It also displaced another family that had impact of any further logging within that watershed and how their home destroyed, where a creek suddenly appeared and that potentially, accumulatively, would impact the potential went right through the middle of their home. for increased water fows through the Hummingbird Creek, I have one constituent, Steve Hobbs. He and his wife are which might again lead to a further debris fow. So the resid- still displaced from their home. Teir home is still under an ents in Swansea Point are extremely concerned. evacuation order since May of last year. Tere’s still no resol- Again, I don’t necessarily need the answer today, but if ution to this issue. the minister would be willing to commit to meeting with me I was just wondering, Minister, if you were aware of this at a later date to follow up with whatever additional works issue. If you could maybe provide me with an update, either either have been undertaken to date, or additional works today or in the weeks ahead, as far as what the plan is, for that might be undertaken to provide some comfort to the Mr. Hobbs, as far as either providing him fnancial compens- residents of Swansea Point. ation for his loss or whatever work might be undertaken to allow him to return to his home. Hon. D. Donaldson: Tank you for bringing this matter forward, Member. I understand there are high sensitivities Hon. D. Donaldson: Chair, sorry about the length for the from the people who live there. It’s a major — relating to reply. I just wanted to get the latest facts. hydrological issues. Again, this area is part of the timber- I am aware of the situation. Te member has done an harvesting land base. What I would like to do is sit down excellent job of bringing it to my attention in the past. I know with the member and staf and go over the forest stewardship we’ve had discussions about it, and I’d asked the staf to pur- plan. It’s not in place, but we’re looking at a forest steward- sue it because the situation as described…. ship plan for the area. You can just nod your head, but is this the couple that has [5:20 p.m.] a newborn, and is a doctor…? Oh, it’s the other one. Okay. Why don’t we do that? Ten you can take some of the Let me consult a bit more about that. information to the concerned citizens, and we can see if we [5:15 p.m.] can get to some resolution. What I’d ofer the member is that we could sit down 3508 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018

G. Kyllo: Yes, a lot of the discussion and dialogue was mechanisms that the member mentioned. around providing a bit of comfort to residents, whether it would be a third-party review or the potential engaging with G. Kyllo: Tank you, Minister, for the answer. Splatsin First Nations. I know there’s a high degree of respect Is there a specifc budget that is available for FLNRO spe- for Splatsin First Nations, and there was some discussion cifcally for maintenance dredging or preventative mainten- about potentially bringing Splatsin First Nations in, early on ance work in rivers and streams in the province of B.C.? in this stage, to have them actually undertake a bit of work on behalf of the community — again, just to have a bit more Hon. D. Donaldson: Within this ministry’s budget, there’s of a third-party review. no specifc fund designated for dredging. Having said that, Anyhow, I thank you very much for your ofer, Minister. we have diferent responsibilities where money is available One other concern that we certainly have in Shuswap. We for freshet or erosion control measures, whether it’s main- had a signifcant freshet last year. It caused signifcant chal- tenance money around roads that we’re responsible for, lenges in the riding. Snowpack levels this year are signifcant, whether it’s within the general south area budget for forestry about 135 percent of average. I know that just the snowpack operations. Ten there’s sometimes local government alone is not the only indicator with respect to the amount of responsibility for that work as well. volumes of water during freshet. I can’t say, “Tere is the budget, and this is how much has However, I do know that there’s a number creeks and been expended specifcally for dredging,” for instance, but streams within the riding of Shuswap that are in need of we access money from various places within the ministry to some signifcant maintenance dredging. Previous freshets do that kind of work. have increased the bed load in the creeks, reduced their car- rying capacity. If that bed load is not removed, a further G. Kyllo: Just a bit more clarifcation, then. When res- freshet will just raise the water levels, get closer to the top of idents are concerned…. Tey see that there are rivers and bank, where you get into the organics, and then we’re going creeks within the area that have signifcant debris fow. to have yet further problems. Tere’s obviously concern, if there’s another freshet or sig- I know that with emergency B.C., there seems to be fund- nifcant freshet, that the carrying capacity of the creeks or ing available for an emergency response, but my question is: streams has been limited and we’re going to end up with a is there funding or anything that can be done in the weeks fooding situation. and the months prior to freshet to prepare and prevent a dis- In those instances, is it for the residents to then consult aster from occurring? with local government, and it’s local government’s respons- ibility? Tis particular area that I’m concerned about is Hon. D. Donaldson: Our staf and people in the ministry largely within the regional district of North Okanagan. Is it I represent are willing to sit down with local government their responsibility to identify areas of concern and bring and local people around fnding ways to mitigate the spring that to the ministry’s attention? Or is it the ministries that are freshet. I understand that the snowpack is high. I don’t know also keeping stock, I guess, of creeks and rivers within par- if it’s as high as it is in the central part of the Okanagan, up in ticular areas and then identifying where there’s potential risk the area the member represents, but I understand that right for future fooding events? through the whole watershed, right up to where you are liv- If not, where is the collaboration? And what can be done ing, it’s perhaps at 141 percent above normal snowpack. proactively to ensure that in the chance of a signifcant fresh- [5:25 p.m.] et, we don’t have emergency situations where there’s a poten- We have been working proactively with emergency man- tial for loss of property or life? agement B.C. to put measures in place to deal with the spring [5:30 p.m.] freshet. Te maintaining of culverts and the dredging of creeks and diking…. I know some of that work has been Hon. D. Donaldson: If a person, an individual, has con- done, specifcally, on one of the creeks in the member’s con- cern, we recommend that they either go to the local district stituency. Our staf are willing to work with the other minis- ofce under my ministry or to local government, because tries, as well as local people around, making sure that work it really depends on the nature of the responsibility. Tere’s continues. shared responsibility. For instance, if it’s a road issue asso- As well, with the whole overall system — how we’ve been ciated with the freshet, that could be under ourselves, or it managing the water level in Okanagan Lake, for instance. I could be under the Ministry of Transportation. Another area believe it’s managed right now at 12 centimetres below aver- could be under the responsibility of a forest licensee. age level in order to accommodate the potential spring fresh- I think it would be important, as you’ve pointed out, for et. I know that’s more around lakeside homes, not particu- an individual who has a concern to know where to go. We larly, maybe, the ones in the neighbourhood that the mem- suggest that they either go to the local district ofce or to ber’s talking about. local government. Local government is aware of the spe- It’s an overall approach. But defnitely, on a local level, cialists that we have for the kinds of issues you’re talking we’re willing to talk about resources and look at the diferent about. We do have an understanding within either the loc- Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3509 al district ofces or the regional ofce, when it is a matter ber was part of the government, I know that the focus was on of our responsibility, about where those areas of risk are. trying to be more efcient in that kind of permitting process. We have engineers and feld personnel, especially during Tat’s something that we take as a priority as well. the food season. We can always improve timelines. We’re aware of how I’m thinking that the member’s question is about in long that one took. It can be complex. Dredging is ofen advance — like somebody who has a concern. Tis could be complex when it comes to environmental concerns and First really bad come the spring freshet. I would say to the mem- Nations concerns and property owner concerns. But our ber to direct them either to their local district ofce of this goal is to streamline, so I would be able to ofer to the mem- ministry or to local government. ber that staf could meet with him and bring him up to speed on some of the lessons learned from that Deep Creek process G. Kyllo: Tank you, Minister, for the response. I’m just and how things could be streamlined into the future. going to turn quickly to a creek in my riding called Deep Creek that runs through some extremely valuable agricul- G. Kyllo: Just one fnal question to the minister. tural land. Tere was a group of farmers a number of years Tere is a cedar mill that operates in my riding called ago that wanted to get together and have a look at doing North Enderby Timber. Tey provide employment for about some maintenance dredging. Te procedures, the require- 120 people in the community of Enderby. I know they’ve got ments that were put upon them, were very long and lengthy. a signifcant First Nation workforce. As well, the amount of I know that there was some discussions previous to the jobs that they create per cubic metre of log that’s actually last election within the ministry, in the Kamloops ofce, to processed is signifcant. have a look at what could be done, looking at streamlining I know that, just previously, the minister was commenting the process. So when you have a number of agricultural in a response to the member for Nechako Lakes about value- properties that may want to look at doing some maintenance added. When I look at value-added and look at North dredging, having a look at an expedited process for actually Enderby Timber, the number of jobs that are created per getting the permits put in place. cubic metre of cedar that’s processed has got to be probably one of the highest in the province. [R. Chouhan in the chair.] I guess just more of a comment — and then maybe an opportunity for the minister to provide what his thoughts In the experience with a number of farmers in the Deep are — on mills that have a signifcant amount of job creation Creek area, they were frst asked to do an environmental per cubic metre of log that’s actually processed. Tis partic- assessment and then a number of months later asked that ular mill also does not have any tenure. So they’re relying, there was also a requirement for a hydrology assessment. All largely, through B.C. Timber Sales or through purchasing of these things just added to the overall timeline. I think it through other tenure holders for logs in order to keep their was a little over two years in process time. workforce busy. [5:35 p.m.] I’m just wondering if the minister could share with us: My question to the minister is if there were some discus- does he have a particular position with respect to providing sions. I know that my constituent, Mr. Lorne Hunter, was support for those mills that are actively involved in the happy to make himself available to have a look at the lessons value-added process, that aren’t just about building the learned from the permitting processes that were undertaken cheapest 2-by-4 but are really looking at the value-added at the time and have a look at what could be done to actually prospect and trying to maximize the amount of jobs created expedite or streamline those processes. for every cubic metre of log that’s processed? I don’t need the answer right now, because it’s quite a [5:40 p.m.] lengthy question. I was just hoping that the minister might A bit of a long-winded statement and question, but I’dcer- maybe ask if staf could provide a bit of an update with tainly appreciate hearing the minister’s thoughts on that. respect to what eforts have been undertaken in the ofce to provide further clarity and the opportunity for stream- Hon. D. Donaldson: Te member was asking about how I lining and dovetailing of the diferent works that might be view this kind of situation. For me, it’s a balance between…. required in obtaining permitting for maintenance dredging, We’re dependent for many jobs, and many communities are especially in agricultural areas. dependent on, the traditional major licensees who are pro- ducing dimensional lumber. Tat’s always going to be an Hon. D. Donaldson: My understanding — the members important part of how we extract value from our forests. would be much more in depthof the Deep Creek situation — I think what we also need to do is turn a lot more attention is that there was a number of private property owners that to the kind of value-added, smaller mills, as in the example needed to be brought in and coordinated in order to submit given by the member — North Enderby Timber. Te trick the application for dredging. right now is that — from what I understand and from what Of course, we as a government…. I know the member said the member said — North Enderby Timber is buying all of it was a two-year process, and I know that when the mem- their wood on the open market, their logs on the open mar- 3510 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018 ket. As lumber prices have increased and major licensees are J. Rustad: In speaking with industry, we obviously have looking for volume and turning their attention to volume, record lumber prices in the United States right now. Industry it becomes more of a challenge for those who don’t have a is trying to take advantage of that to the best opportunity. licence or tenure to acquire the amount of wood they need. But my understanding is that they’re having challenges with We’re working through the Wood Secretariat. We’re work- actually shipping product and moving product out of the ing through the ILMA to try to come up with some solu- province. I’m wondering if the minister can confrm he’s tions. Again, previously, the critic was asking about policies been hearing about those challenges and, if so, if he has or tools. Tese are the kinds of things that we’re exploring taken any actions to try to assist in resolving those particular with North Enderby Timber types of operations in order issues for mills. to come up with some more solutions. We need to extract [5:50 p.m.] more value and increase the value chain from the fbre in the forest, whether it’s dimensional lumber or making value- Hon. D. Donaldson: As far as shipping and moving the added cedar products or doing more with what has tradi- product out of the province afer it’s been manufactured, we tionally been regarded as residuals or wood wastes. So we’ll haven’t had any representations directly to the ministry from be working on those kinds of solutions, and that’s a major industry with concerns about that, at the deputy minister focus of what I bring to this role as the minister. level or at the staf level responsible for that. Having said that, I’ve talked just this past week to at least J. Rustad: To the minister and his staf, I’m trying to two of the major licensees in the Interior. It was just a call to accommodate my colleagues as they come in and have duty address any number of topics that were on their mind, and in the Legislature. I apologize for jumping around a little bit they didn’t bring this up with me. But I’d be defnitely inter- there with those questions, but thank you for entertaining ested in addressing it if there are concerns, especially if those them and providing the responses that you did. are concerns that are within the jurisdiction of this ministry On the export issue, I was actually interested in some and within the jurisdiction of the province. numbers that came out just in January, not so much on log export but just on our overall export. As the minister, I’m J. Rustad: Sofwood lumber. Obviously, the ability to be sure, is well aware, forest products and forest product export able to access our markets is an important component to that is an important part of British Columbia’s economy. for forestry — the sofwood lumber agreement, that is. Giv- [5:45 p.m.] en that the current tarifs and countervailing duties are in I noticed with the numbers that I saw for January that sol- place by the Americans and it looks like talks have stalled id wood production dropped by 15.6 percent year over year, or are nonexistent, I wonder if the minister could provide of export, and a 22 percent drop in sofwood lumber exports this Legislature with an update with regards to the current in particular. I’m just wondering if these are numbers that status and eforts that the ministry is making towards trying are part of a trend or whether this is something that seems to to work with Ottawa to resolve this issue. be an outlier and if the minister might have some explana- tion in regards to why the drop in year over year for January. Hon. D. Donaldson: I can update the member on what’s been transpiring lately. Of course, it’s very difcult, Hon. D. Donaldson: I hope I got the member’s question impossible really, to negotiate with a party that’s not inter- right. He was saying that on a monthly comparison from ested in negotiation. January of last year to January of this year, there was a Afer the fnal determinations were made against us — decrease in the lumber exported. If that is the question, then that was January 3, 2018 — the combined duties averaged it’s difcult to compare on a month-to-month basis. Com- 20 percent. Again, we believe they’re unjust and unfair and paring on an annual basis takes into account a lot of the vari- unwarranted, so we have fled appeals under chapter 19 of abilities. the North American Free Trade Agreement through Canada. Specifcally, the variabilities for what the member has seen Tat’s our input into Canada’s role in that, for the counter- between the amount of export a year ago in January to this vailing and anti-dumping investigations. January could have to do with the variables around the As well, we fled appeals to the U.S. International Trade mountain pine beetle — less wood available because of that. Commission’s fnding of material injury, which was anoth- It could be delays due to the fres. It could have to do with er fnding on top of the anti-dumping and countervailing log inventories because of the fre situation. duties. Trough our eforts with the federal government, What we do know is that the sofwood lumber unjust and Canada has formally requested World Trade Organization unfair duties are not impacting the export situation. Mills consultations with the U.S. on both the countervailing and are wanting to export as much as they can right now because anti-dumping duties, as well as broader systemic issues. of the very, very high lumber prices, unprecedentedly high In the past, we’ve been successful in these eforts. But, in lumber prices. Tose are some of the factors that make it dif- the past, it’s taken many years to complete. We believe it’s fcult to actually just focus in on this month in a previous going to be at least a two-year process under these legal year to this month this year. avenues we have. Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3511

Tere’s also the ability of companies that were not indi- [6:00 p.m.] vidually examined in the original countervailing duty invest- igation to request from the U.S. Department of Commerce Hon. D. Donaldson: Our staf are in constant contact to conduct an expedited review to establish a company-spe- with the respective federal government staf around aligning cifc rate. Obviously, companies would hope to decrease our interests. their exposure on the anti-dumping and countervailing As far as my role, I’m in regular contact with the Natural duties, and 16 B.C. companies have requested that expedited Resources Minister, Jim Carr. I was on a call with him and review. Te U.S. Department of Commerce is expected to other Forests Ministers from across Canada. I believe it was initiate the review process by the end of this month. So that just two weeks ago. It might have been last week. Time fies will be, potentially, some relief in the short term. when you’re having fun. I’m not sure about that, but it was [5:55 p.m.] very recent. As well, we have to keep in the back of our minds that I brought up our continued concerns about the sofwood the U.S. Department of Commerce does conduct annu- lumber agreement. Minister Carr discussed the latest federal al administrative reviews to update the duty calculations. initiative — it was afer the federal budget — and just made Te frst review of the duties that were imposed is going to sure that we were aware of the diferent avenues for industry be in January 2019 and complete in the spring of 2020. It’s to get involved with the latest initiatives from the federal going to cover the review period of April 2017 to the end government. of 2018. Again, there’s another ability to try to put some I’m in touch with Minister Carr, and our staf is in touch pressure on there. with staf in the federal ministry, to make sure we’re aligned We’re defnitely into the litigation part of the process. on this issue. Tere are the expedited reviews that are available, and we’ve been working with Canada closely to fle the appeals. J. Rustad: Tank you to the minister for the answer. Obviously, canvassing the sofwood lumber agreement, it’s J. Rustad: In the recent budget announced by the federal difcult to project or predict what may or may not happen. government, they’ve allocated $191 million over fve years Of course, now that we’re into litigation, obviously this “to support sofwood lumber jobs through litigation.” I will be a lengthy period. It’s unfortunate that the Premier’s believe that is what the reference was to that sum of money. eforts and the trip to Washington didn’t bear any fruit, but Te question to the minister: what role is British such is life, I suppose. Columbia playing? As part of the litigation, is it allocating Obviously, our sofwood lumber industry is performing funds towards this process? Perhaps a more general question strong at the moment because of strong lumber prices, des- is: what engagement had the federal government with the pite these unjust tarifs and the process of protectionism that minister, with regards to that $191 million and how it’ll be the American government has decided to undertake. allocated? Other than the federal government’s initiative and litiga- tion — that would be companies, apparently supported by Hon. D. Donaldson: We make sure, within our fscal the federal government, although I’ll wait for the minister framework each year, that there is sufcient funding to con- to give me some details as to what that $191 million may be tinue, from the provincial perspective, our legal advice and spent on — what direct eforts is the province taking to help our legal initiatives, as far as seeking justice for this injustice. further our case, both with Ottawa as well as, obviously, with Now that we’re in litigation, just as an aside, the U.S. coali- the neighbour south of the border? tion shows no interest in negotiations. We did end ’s contract regarding his role, but we do have him Hon. D. Donaldson: We’re having a little difculty clari- available to provide advice. If we get back into a negotiated fying the $191 million fgure that the member has brought settlement and serious interest from the U.S. on that, we’ll up. I’ll just read to you what we have. Ten perhaps he can re-engage with David Emerson. provide further clarifcation, and we can get to the crux of Specifcally on the $191 million that the member refer- that amount in another dialogue. enced, we’re just looking up some of the details of that infor- Tis is from March 6, from the federal budget. In the mation, and I can provide him with a more fulsome answer sofwood lumber aid package, we have it announced that before the end of estimates. there are loans and loan guarantees of $605 million. Tere’s expanding market opportunities program of $45 million J. Rustad: I appreciate that staf will be able to pull up over three years. Tere’s investment in forest industry trans- some information with regards to the $191 million and its formation — $55 million over three years. allocation. [6:05 p.m.] Has the minister been directly in contact with his coun- Tere’s a forest innovation program — $63 million over terpart in Ottawa with regards to that money and how it three years. Tere’s a work-sharing program within Employ- will potentially beneft B.C.’s interests in supporting our sof- ment and Social Development Canada of $9.5 million over wood lumber litigation issues? four years; a labour market development agreement of 3512 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018

$80 million for two years; an Indigenous forestry initiative, industry or even that interested in production of lumber. $10 million over three years. Some of them are simply interested as fnancial mechanisms, I’m not trying to trip up the member or anything like that, as well as in protecting their own territory. I think that’s a but I didn’t see the $191 million fgure in there regarding the good analysis — that we are under attack. federal package. If he can provide further clarifcation, we As far as what happened in the last 24 hours, we knew can dig into that more. I do want to dig into it if that num- that, previously, in January, a countervailing duty was ber’s out there. imposed on Catalyst, for uncoated groundwood paper, of As far as the ongoing eforts, as I said, I’m in constant 6.09 percent. As of yesterday, the anti-dumping duties contact — regular contact, at least — with the federal min- were 22.16 percent, for a total of 28.25 percent. Tat’s ister responsible for the same portfolio. I hold Minister pretty signifcant, extremely signifcant, and it will have Carr…. I just was on a call with the other Forest Ministers, impacts on Catalyst. as I said, with Minister Carr. Without breaching confden- It has only been 24 hours. We’re doing the analysis now. tiality, I can say that there was airtime available, and I took We’re engaging with Catalyst. Tey have operations in Pow- it up on B.C.’s behalf. ell River, Port Alberni and Crofon. We’re working with them Tere wasn’t a lot of other input from Forest Ministers to see what the direct impacts will be in the short term. I from across Canada, and I was able to use the conference have commissioned a working group previously, called the call session to really detail the impacts that SLA is having on coast pulp fbre working group, and they’ll be bringing a B.C. and could be having into the future. As well, the Minis- report to me on the fbre situation, and some recommenda- ter of Jobs, Trade and Technology is in constant contact with tions around the coast pulp sector, this spring. the federal minister that relates to his area. We have regular We’re also working with the federal government on this. contact at staf level. Some of Catalyst’s directory paper is not captured by this. We’re pursuing this. Canada has the primary authoriza- Tat’ll help, but maybe not enough. I’ve also confrmed with tion to negotiate with the U.S. and to pursue the legal cases. Minister Carr that the sofwood lumber relief package that We’re right up there in conjunction with Canadian ofcials you referenced earlier is available to the pulp and paper sec- to make sure that gets done in B.C.’s interests. tor. We hadn’t been sure if that was just simply to the sof- wood lumber sector, but it’ll be available to the pulp and J. Rustad: Te $191 million number I referred to — I paper sector as well. actually will have to go back and pull it out of the budget. Analysis is still underway. Again, it’s an unfair, unwar- It was reported on BNN on budget day with regard to that. ranted and unjust duty. I think it’s an indication that we as Tat’s the Business News Network. I guess we’ll both go do a province are under attack by certain forces in the United some homework on that one and come back to it. States. Moving on from the sofwood lumber directly to the recent announcement here of duties against our pulp J. Rustad: Yes, with pulp prices where they are, a 28 per- industry and the impact from that. Obviously, those were cent hit on that, obviously, will be very challenging for just recent, in terms of those actions. However, the impact industry. I know that was asked in question period today has potential to be signifcant, if it has a detrimental impact and talked about in statements by both the Premier and the to that side of the industry. Leader of the Opposition. I’m sure there will be more to cov- Pulp is obviously — as the minister, I’m sure, is well aware er with regard to that. — an important component of what we do with our forest [6:15 p.m.] industry. Without the ability to utilize the wood waste that Specifcally, hon. Chair, I want to ask your permission comes out of production for pulp — chips, in particular — for a moment, if I could, to utilize some technology. I just that would severely impact the rest of our forest industry. To want to read a quote with regard to the conversation on the that extent, has the minister or the ministry had an oppor- $191 million, if can I do that — because we’re not supposed tunity to do any analysis with regard to the duties that have to use technology with this. Tank you for the permission. now been put in place by the Americans, and is there any Tis is from a news article yesterday, specifcally around potential analysis with regard to what that impact could be the budget. It says: “Te government also announced the directly to the pulp industry? allocation of $191 million over the next fve years to sof- [6:10 p.m.] wood lumber producers afected by the ongoing World Trade Organization and NAFTA sofwood lumber dis- Hon. D. Donaldson: I think that what’s been happening putes. Details have not been provided, but the allocation has been typifed by some commentators as: “We’re under signals the government does not believe the dispute to be attack. Our industry is under attack. B.C. is under attack by resolved soon.” those who do not believe in open trading and free borders Tat’s why I’m asking for the details around it, because in the U.S.” It’s not necessarily everyone in the U.S. It’s some it’s out there. I’m kind of wondering what that money is for players that are not interested in trading with open borders, and how that specifcally would be utilized. I’ll wait for the and they’re not necessarily interested in the health of the ministry to be able to provide some details on that, as those Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3513

numbers get looked at. It is part of the working forest on Vancouver Island, and I might come back to another question on trade agree- there are still a number of mills and industry job opportun- ments, but the member for Saanich North and the Islands ities that are associated with the working forest. We also rec- had a couple of questions around old growth that he wanted ognize that through things like our new policy on big and to get in before the end of session, so I’ll turn it over to him. iconic tree species, that is also supportive of other sectors of the economy, such as tourism. A. Olsen: Good to see you again, Mr. Minister. I just have a couple of questions on land use planning or forestry man- A. Olsen: Just one more question. I understand the agement, around the remaining old growth, specifcally here challenge here, the balance of jobs and cutting trees and on Vancouver Island. I’m wondering if maybe you could managing forests. I think that from our perspective — provide me just a brief overview of what the plans are in from my perspective, certainly — there’s a huge beneft to terms of old growth on the Island here. these trees still standing, a huge economic beneft to trees still standing. I think we’ve seen chambers of commerce Hon. D. Donaldson: Yeah, I’d be happy to give a bit of an come out and say that. overview of what’s been going on. Te member may know In terms of the work that’s being done and the policy that over 13 percent of Vancouver Island will never be logged that’s being created, is that moving at a quick enough…? My under current designations. Tat includes 520,000 hectares understanding is that the Walbran has been slated to have of old-growth forest. On B.C.’s coast, over 55 percent of some pretty extensive logging activities, if not already. I’m Crown old-growth forests are protected. Tat’s just a bit of just wondering if those policies will help to protect those background, numbers. sensitive and very important habitat and ecosystems. We’re working on a number of new initiatives on Vancou- ver Island to support and enhance old-growth forest man- Hon. D. Donaldson: I appreciate the intent of the ques- agement. Tese all fall under the current Vancouver Island tion, around the timing. It’s a matter of timing and the fact Land Use Plan. We’re working on a new policy for big and that this is a working forest and that there are jobs dependent iconic trees, which is of interest to a lot of people, around the on harvesting in the working forest. protection of those trees. [6:25 p.m.] We’ve been working on new wildlife habitat areas and old- We’ve been working with industry, and they’re aware of growth management areas that support species at risk. We’ve our new initiatives. Tey have backed away from some of just been through a process around the marbled murrelet the opportunities that are available to them, knowing that and the northern goshawk that will mean additional protec- we have the new policies around big and iconic trees and tion of those species’ habitats. Both of those depend on old the new wildlife habitat areas around species at risk that growth for their habitat. are being implemented. Tey’re cognizant of that. So those We’ve been looking at policies around additional coastal opportunities are going to help further protect old growth in Douglas fr protection, which is of interest to many people the Walbran. on the Island, and updated vegetation resource inventories and an analysis of second-growth transitions. J. Rustad: Much as I’d like to pursue the topic of old [6:20 p.m.] growth, I know that we’re going to run out of time because Tose are a number of the initiatives that, since I’ve there are a lot of other topics still to be covered. So I’m become minister, I’ve asked staf to continue and work fur- going to move. ther on, which all relate to old-growth management on Van- I want to ask the minister about appurtenancy — in par- couver Island. ticular, comments from the Premier, as well as the minister, with regard to not going back to what appurtenancy was but A. Olsen: Tere was recently quite a bit of efort and quite a social contract with communities, I think was how it was a bit of attention paid to the Walbran Valley and, I think, defned. I’m wondering if the minister could provide some requests of government to put a moratorium on cutting spe- information with regard to the intent of the ministry’s direc- cifcally in that valley. Has there been any consideration in tion associated with this topic. protecting that valley from logging activity and…? Yeah, leave it at that. Hon. D. Donaldson: Certainly. Tere has been some reporting in the news around using the word “appurten- Hon. D. Donaldson: Te larger areas of protection, like ancy.” Tere’s no disconnect between what I’ve been saying the Carmanah, are part of the Walbran picture. I just go back to industry and stakeholders and what the intent of the to some of the new policies that we’ve been working on for Premier’s message was. We’ve been very clear on that. We big and iconic trees and new wildlife habitat areas and old- are not talking about going back to appurtenancy as it was growth management areas that support species at risk. Tat in 2003. will mean more protection for old-growth forests that are What we are interested in doing is having more of the logs, part of the Walbran as well. the public resource, processed in mills in communities that 3514 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018 are dependent on those forests. Tat’s the social contract. concerned that wood is going by their door, while a mill in What I’ve done and have begun to do is to have this conver- their community might have closed or has the potential to sation with major licensees and give them the opportunity to close in the future. address the fact that there are communities that have some What I am trying to understand from the minister and concerns around that social contract. would like to ask the minister is whether these types of con- I’ve met with major licensees and said: “Tis is a concern cerns are going to be driving this idea, this social licence, that I’ve heard from communities, and I’d like you to come within the community, around the community’s desire to see back with some solutions about how you believe the social the processing of logs within their jurisdiction, within their contract between communities and the forests can be rein- area, as opposed to going to the next community down the vigorated and re-established in a better way.” Tat’s the way road — or whether this is more around, as the minister has we’ve been approaching it. suggested, a conversation and a relationship, as opposed to a change in any particular supply scenarios. J. Rustad: Tank you to the minister for that. Of course, I’ve also had a number of conversations with major licensees Hon. D. Donaldson: Tere have been some events that and others that have expressed a fair bit of confusion around have happened — it wasn’t under our government’s watch — the intent of what this is. As you can imagine — as our forest that didn’t lead to public trust that the publicly held resource industry has developed, particularly in the Interior but on was being used with the priority being jobs being created for the coast as well — we have logs going by each other down people living close to those resources. highways and along oceanways from one mill to another, [6:35 p.m.] from one community to another, from one area, one region Tere were major forest licences fipped between two to another — all, of course, within British Columbia. major licensees, which the member is very aware of. Tat I’m curious. If the minister could perhaps clarify the happened without any prior awareness by communities that intent of this review or this direction, as to whether or not this was going to happen so they could prepare or have there will be a realignment of tenures associated with this or input. Tere have been mills closed before they actually a realignment of allocation associated with various compan- became insolvent. Tese kind of things lead to a general state ies or various mills, based on communities. of people feeling like they don’t have as much beneft from [6:30 p.m.] the resources in their own backyards that they should have. Te member is correct that the fbre supply is contracting. Hon. D. Donaldson: What comes across my desk, and Tere’s no doubt about that, especially in the Interior, as we when people pick up the phone and phone me…. In are coming to the end of the uplif, as a result of the moun- instances, people in communities aren’t happy with what tain pine beetle, in volume. We’re going back to levels that, they see happening in their local forest sector, and First in many cases, have been determined by the chief forester, Nations as well. Some licensees have very good relationships for the annual allowable cut sustainable level, below what with communities, but what the member is asking is: is it a the base annual allowable cut level was before the uplif for policy around the social contract? No. It’s direction we’re giv- mountain pine beetle. ing to licensees that they need to be more responsive and talk It is about having a dialogue with industry in a com- with communities about their business model and help com- munity about that value chain that I talked about before. munities and communicate better with communities around How do we manage under these circumstances to extract how they’re managing to remain economically viable. more value out of the fbre that’s actually there, even though I believe there has been a breakdown in some areas of the it’s going to be at a diminished supply, especially in relation province in that communication. Tat leads to people being to dimensional lumber production that’s critical for many upset and contacting our ministry with concerns. We want communities? to make sure that the licensees are aware of that and that We have other parts of that fbre supply that is generating they need to be more responsive. Tat’s something that per- value in other places in the world that we look at. Tere are haps some of them have gotten into a pattern of doing over a lot of factors at play there. I agree on the fnancial viability. the last number of years. We’re saying that it’s essential to re- But those are the kind of conversations we have to have and establish that relationship with local communities in order that improve the notion of the social contract that’s neces- for local communities to be happy with how those licensees sary to get the best value out of the forest and the best return are performing in their area. to communities. It’s also part of what we’re doing within our ministry J. Rustad: I’ve also heard from local communities, as the around rural development and Forest Enhancement Society minister can imagine, in areas that are heavily involved in of B.C. Tose are all factoring into improving the social con- forestry. We have declining annual allowable cuts and chal- tract around the publicly held resource and the amount of lenges. I’ll talk specifcally more around the Interior as value that communities see from that publicly held resource opposed to the coast associated with this. Tere will be, returning to their communities. potentially, some additional mill closures. Communities are Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3515

J. Rustad: Tank you to the minister for that answer. People in some communities see logs being utilized in I’ve got to ask a few more questions around this. Obvi- mills that could have produced a lot more value if they were ously, from forest communities’ perspectives, from both used in another mill. Some operations, some operators like companies as well as communities, there are certainly two Gorman Bros. in West Kelowna, have the ability within their sides to the argument, and especially when you put the organization — because they have so many diferent styles aspirations of First Nations and the issue of title land and of operations — to get the right log to the right mill within tenure, etc., on the table. Not to go into that at the their operations and do some trading around that. moment, because that will be for tomorrow, if we have Tose are the kinds of models that I think we need to enough time to be able to canvass. promote and support and advocate for more because that I’ll use the example of Merritt and the Merritt timber sup- means more employment and more value out of the logs ply area. Te Nicola Valley chiefs, obviously, want to enter being harvested. into an agreement that would see their issues of land title being addressed and, ultimately, an opportunity for fbre. J. Rustad: I am in agreement with the minister on the Te community itself, of course, was very devastated by the point that we do need to try to maximize value and, obvi- closure of the mill in that area. But on the other hand, the ously, create the jobs, utilizing the fbre that we have to the company that has the tenure is using that fbre to be able to best of our ability. But as the minister can tell from the line of keep another mill in another community open. It wasn’t eco- questioning that I’m asking, there’s a tremendous amount of nomical for them to be able to keep the two mills open. uncertainty out there, particularly for the milling industry, Te question to the minister is: in a situation for that, what because they don’t know. does that social licence look like? How does that work within A question like I’ve just asked around Merritt and the fbre a community like Merritt and within the First Nations in the supply and the fow…. Tey’re wondering whether that’s Nicola Valley and with the company that is still operating in going to change. In a tight fbre market, where that is des- the area and requiring that wood for its operations in anoth- perately needed to be able to keep an operation open, they er community? need to know whether or not that is going to fow or whether [6:40 p.m.] there’s going to be some sort of change. [6:45 p.m.] Hon. D. Donaldson: Specifcally, there are areas that have Specifcally, the right log to the right mill and trying to experienced hardship due to fbre supply declining. Tat’s maximize the utilization of the fbre — I don’t have an issue happening now. It has happened in the last few years, and it’s with that. But how that works…. Of course, the devil is going to happen more. Tere’s a lot of competition for the always in the detail. Te challenge will be any uncertainty existing fbre that’s available. People can’t…. Well, I believe that’s created from it. Te line of questioning I’m asking the member could imagine. But almost every representation around this is to try to get that understanding of what this I have in the minister’s ofce, when it comes to forestry, has social licence with communities will look like. to do with wanting a piece of the pie when it comes to fbre. I think about the situation, in my riding, of Fort St. James And that pie has shrunk when it comes to the industry and and Vanderhoof. During the pine beetle epidemic, as it was the sector and how we’ve used that publicly held resource to escalating, there was a tremendous amount of fbre that was create value-added products in the past. harvested out of the Vanderhoof area. It went to various What I’m interested in doing, and we’re interested in mills throughout the area. Of course, now that that situation doing as a government, is growing that value — I referenced is done, there’s not nearly as much mature fbre lef in the this earlier — around fbre that’s not currently harvested Vanderhoof area, but there’s plenty that’s north of Fort St. or not being used in ways that could add value. Tat gives James. So a lot of that fbre is fowing from north of Fort St. some communities the ability to look into the future and see: James back towards Vanderhoof in terms of how the overall “Well, here’s wood that the licensees aren’t using, and here supply goes in the area. are opportunities.” Tat’s what we’re facilitating in dialogues However, if there was pressure…. I’m not suggesting this with First Nations, communities and industry. would happen, but if there happens to be a company that I think that the member referenced the Nicola Valley decides to change its mill confguration to the detriment of chiefs and the agreement they’ve come to in Merritt. I think Fort St. James, obviously that would change signifcantly the that’s a great example. I met with the Nicola Valley chiefs a scenario for that community, which would be devastating. couple of weeks ago in Kamloops. But it’s part of how the wood has been fowing over time. Tese are the kinds of things we’re looking at. As well, Te question remains. In terms of uncertainty, can the we’re looking at the ability to add value to the fbre that’s minister provide any assurances to the mills, the companies not being currently utilized. If that’s the one point I can and the communities that are, obviously, part of this overall make, that’s a way to enhance the social contract. I’ve met fbre basket, particularly through the Interior, that have been with many companies lately who make sure that they get impacted and are going to see the drops? the right log to the right mill, and that’s another part of the Can the ministry provide any type of certainty that would social contract. help to alleviate some of the concerns that mills are not 3516 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018 going to have fbre taken away from them as part of a social stands that. Te sooner those changes happen in a way that licence, acquiring a social licence to a particular community can bring certainty and that doesn’t create disruption, I or working with particular communities or First Nations? think, the better. I think industry would welcome that, and I think, quite frankly, all communities and people in British Hon. D. Donaldson: Te situation that I came into as Columbia would welcome those changes. Minister of Forests…. Tere was a great deal of uncertainty. I Outside of that, it’s the social licence concept that…. I mean, 30,000 jobs have been lost in the forest sector and over understand if the minister isn’t hearing any concerns relayed 100 mills closed. So this isn’t something that was created in to him, but I am hearing those concerns because of uncer- the last eight months. Tere was uncertainty in the industry tainty of just what it means. No one quite knows what it afer years of an approach to forestry. means. It’s a conversation that’s going to start, a conversation What I want to make sure that’s clear — and I think I did that, obviously, will take some time. say it before — is that we’re not going anywhere back to what Perhaps the minister could provide some clarity in terms was known as appurtenancy, back pre-2003, where there was of the length of time this conversation will carry on — with volume, in a legal way, tied to local milling in communit- communities, with First Nations, with industry around the ies. Appurtenancy, from that aspect, is not what we’re talking province — before there will be some determination or dir- about with social contract. ection through policy or regulation that might give some I want to make sure that if the member or anybody else defnition to what this may mean — this idea of social listening hears these kinds of concerns from local govern- licence with communities. ment, major licensees, minor licensees or people involved in the sector, we have local ofcials in almost every com- Hon. D. Donaldson: We’re hard workers in these estim- munity — we’re on the ground in pretty well all communities ates and try to use as much time as we can right to the end through district ofces and elsewhere — that can discuss of the day. I’ll just fnish of with a response to the question what the issues are and inform people that we’re not going from the critic. back to appurtenancy. Tis, to me, is nothing scary. It should be an element of We do have to address the issue of value, a value chain and conversations we have that infuse all aspects of the work of jobs that are required. A big part of this has become the cer- the ministry. tainty around First Nations. Reconciliation is part of creat- Really, it’s about a culture of sharing information, of open ing more certainty. First Nations who have a major interest dialogue. Some companies are doing a good job, and others in forestry…. Tat’s something that we need to become bet- need to make sure that they involve communities in ter at. I know there were some initiatives from the previous decisions that they’re going to make. I know that ofentimes government in that, but we need to have a longer-term view there’s proprietary information, but still, there are a lot of of how First Nations are involved in this as well. places where communications can be better and the culture I think that when I talk to major licensees, they get it. of social licence can be infused and have an impact on the Tey get what we’re getting at. Te ones I’ve talked to aren’t rural development work that we’re doing, the land use plan- fearful, but maybe at a local level, people need to access the ning work we’re doing and, defnitely, the reconciliation ofcials in my ministry to get a better idea of what we’re work we’re doing. talking about. It’s not about…. I appreciate the member has heard from [6:50 p.m.] people around uncertainty. I don’t doubt that. To me, enhan- cing the discussion around social licence is a way to create J. Rustad: I know it’s getting close to the end of the day, more certainty. and the temptation is to get into a little bit of politics. I just want to make one statement to add to what the minister said Te Chair: Minister, noting the hour. about job losses. Tere are actually 10,000 job gains in the forest sector Hon. D. Donaldson: Tis is great. It’s been written out for since 2011-12 in this province. Te signifcant job loss was me. obviously during the economic downturn that had Noting the hour, progress has been made. I move that the happened, but we won’t quibble over that at the moment. I’m committee rise, report progress and ask for leave to sit again. sure we’ll have lots of time to debate that over the coming weeks and months. Motion approved. Specifcally, though, to this issue — and I recognize we’re getting near the end of the day today — I understand Te committee rose at 6:54 p.m. entirely. I look forward, tomorrow morning, to getting into the issue of First Nations and tenures and volume associated Te House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. with that. I understand entirely that there will be some changes, and Committee of Supply (Section B), having reported there needs to be some changes. I think everybody under- progress, was granted leave to sit again. Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3517

Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported I’m going to refer again to the fndings contained within progress, was granted leave to sit again. that study and read those fndings into the record. Tis is a direct quotation from page 3 of that report: Hon. M. Farnworth moved adjournment of the House. “Our analysis has two main fndings. First, air pollution and greenhouse gas costs are substantially larger for rail than for Motion approved. pipelines. Second, air pollution and greenhouse gas costs are much larger than spill and accident costs. We fnd that air pollution and greenhouse gas costs are more than twice as big as spill and accident Mr. Speaker: Tis House stands adjourned until 10 a.m. costs for rail and more than eight times as big for pipelines. tomorrow morning. “Our fndings indicate that the policy debate surrounding crude oil transportation has put too much relative weight on accidents and Te House adjourned at 6:55 p.m. spills while overlooking a far more serious source of external cost: air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions.” First I’ll ask the minister, who’s had a chance to review that Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room document: are there any other materials that the ministry has produced that relate to the air emission and air pollution Committee of Supply costs associated with transportation by rail?

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF ENVIRONMENT Hon. G. Heyman: Tere is in existence a GHG emis- AND CLIMATE CHANGE STRATEGY sions summary for British Columbia, 1990 to 2015, which (continued) shows that the emissions for pipeline are just less than double that of rail. Te House in Committee of Supply (Section A); S. Chandra Herbert in the chair. M. de Jong: I do not have the beneft of that document and would be obliged to the minister if he would provide it Te committee met at 2:58 p.m. to me. Is that the minister’s way of indicating to myself and the committee that he rejects the fnding that I have referred On Vote 22: ministry operations, $133,949,000 to in the report that I have presented to him? (continued). [3:05 p.m.]

Te Chair: Good afernoon, Members and Ministers. We Hon. G. Heyman: Te answer to the member’s yes-no are here today in Committee of Supply, Douglas Fir Room, question is no. Tat’s not my attempt to indicate that I dis- of course on the traditional territories of the Hul’qumi’num- agree with the study or that I take issue with it, nor is it an speaking peoples, for the Ministry of Environment and Cli- attempt to say that I agree with it. It’s to point out that there mate Change Strategy estimates. are a variety of studies and sets of records which use diferent baselines and diferent components. Tat is precisely why we Hon. G. Heyman: If I may, Mr. Chair. Early in yesterday’s decided, in this government, to appoint a scientifc advisory questioning from the member of the opposition, there was panel to look at all of the risks of transportation by rail and a question regarding which organizations on the list for the by pipeline of diluted bitumen — all of the risks. phase 2 consultations, the pre-notice before the release, were diferent from those in phase 1. M. de Jong: I won’t belabour the point. I wonder if the Tere are eight additional organizations from phase 1 out minister’s regard for the statistic or the data that he just of a total of 30. I committed to come back today with the related to the committee is tempered somewhat by the fact information. Tose are the city of Burnaby; the city of Van- that the transportation of bitumen by rail in signifcant num- couver; the Union of B.C. Municipalities, although they did bers, signifcant volumes, is a fairly recent phenomenon and, not call us back; Tides Canada; the Wilderness Committee; in the period he seemed to refer to, the vast majority of those the David Suzuki Foundation; the Tsleil-Waututh Nation; years would fall outside of the period for which bitumen was the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs; and the government of being transported in signifcant quantities by rail. Alberta. Hon. G. Heyman: Tank you to the member for the ques- M. de Jong: When we broke yesterday, I had referred tion. I’m not trying to temper anything, any of my answers. the minister to a study prepared for the National Bureau I’m trying to indicate that we believe we have incomplete of Economic Research — the study contained at tab 11 of information and that it’s in British Columbians’ best interests the material that I provided to the minister at the outset. that we set aside the time, in a very purposeful way, to gather He, hopefully, has had time to peruse that document to a all the necessary information to defend B.C.’s interests. greater extent. [3:00 p.m.] 3518 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018

M. de Jong: One last, to ensure that I have properly under- cars going by his farm, like many others in that situation and stood what the minister is relating to the committee. In many others who live adjacent to a pipeline and have con- response to the observation by the authors of the report that cerns about what happens if there’s a spill of diluted bitumen I presented, which indicates that the policy debate surround- or a spill of any other hazardous product. “What’s going to ing crude oil transportation has put too much relative weight happen to protect me, my family, my land and my interests?” on accidents and spills while overlooking a far more serious Tat’s a very legitimate concern. source of external cost — air pollution and greenhouse gas Tat’s exactly why we want to have a scientifc panel emissions — the minister is neither endorsing nor rejecting review risks of spill by rail or by pipeline, technologies, prac- that observation, merely indicating that he and the ministry tices, plans and methods of recovering a spill, whether it’s by are not in a position to take, at this point, a specifc position rail or by pipeline — how they can be improved, what can be with respect to that. done to better prepare communities for that eventuality and, hopefully, protect against a signifcant negative impact to the Hon. G. Heyman: I think the point I’m trying to make is environment, the economy or to people’s health or property, that we need more data. We need more information. for that matter. With that in mind, I want to acknowledge the member [R. Kahlon in the chair.] highlighting an important issue and bringing the result of what I suspect is signifcant work and research by the mem- We need a more holistic review of all the scientifc studies ber to create the binder that he’s provided us with. We’ll cer- that are out there, and the purpose is to protect British tainly provide those studies to the scientifc advisory panel Columbia’s environment and our interests against all of the and review them as well. risks of transport of heavy oil by rail or by pipeline. [3:15 p.m.] [3:10 p.m.] If the member has additional information now or that he gathers in the future, or any member of either of the oppos- M. de Jong: In a moment, I’m going to ask the member ition parties, I would encourage them to bring it forward to and make a submission to him and the committee around the panel’s attention afer we announce the panel in the not some of the material I have brought to him and presented too distant future. to him for comment and reaction over the course of the last day or two. M. de Jong: To the minister, I fnd his answer helpful in I should, at this point, before I move on to the fnal section this regard. I should say, by the way, that I didn’t advise the I hope to canvass, provide him with an opportunity to member’s colleague when we had this conversation. At least respond to the question that fows from some of that mater- I don’t think I did. Te irony is, in the case of people who live ial. Tat is whether or not he accepts the proposition that I where I do, that the railroad is adjacent on the south side. believe fows from my study of the available data and studies Te pipeline is adjacent on the north side. So this question of — that the transportation of bitumen by rail entails a signi- relative risk is not an abstract one. It reveals itself geograph- fcantly higher environmental risk than the transportation of ically, within eyesight. It is obviously of broader importance bitumen by pipeline. for the whole province. Tat is the conclusion that I have come to on the basis I’m always careful not to want to put words into the min- of extensive reading and research. It is the conclusion that I ister’s mouth or a minister’s mouth or draw unfair conclu- would urge upon the minister and the government. It is cer- sions. Te impression I derive from the minister’s answer tainly the conclusion that I will urge upon the public. But just now, however, is that he accepts the proposition that rel- it is, I think, incumbent upon me to give the minister an ative risk between modes of transportation is something that opportunity to indicate whether or not he agrees with that can be assessed, measured and rated. Am I correct? conclusion, which I and others, as represented by the mater- ial I brought…. Does he agree with that conclusion or take a Hon. G. Heyman: To answer the member’s question, not diferent view? quite. I would say, as a layperson, that kind of intuitively makes sense to me, but I’m not an expert. I can’t say: “Well, Hon. G. Heyman: I guess the answer that I would give to yes. I absolutely agree.” I would rely on the advice of people the member is that I don’t believe that I have the scientifc who are used to assessing risk and presumably used to or research background to independently come to a conclu- assessing relative risk. sion based on information that I haven’t had the time and I would also point out to the member, and repeat again, don’t personally have the time to review. But if I did, there that a relative risk is likely always a fuid and changing thing. wouldn’t be a lot of point in appointing an independent sci- Technologies change modes of transport — for instance, entifc advisory panel to do that work and advise me, the double walls of pipelines and, in some cases, railcars. Tech- public and the members opposite of what they fnd. nology can change the nature of the product being carried. What I do want to say to the member…. I recall that yes- For instance, diluted bitumen isn’t the form in which bitu- terday the member talked about watching an increase in rail- men comes out of the ground. It’s created in order to trans- Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3519 port it more easily. New technologies are resulting in other impacts and environmental consequences of the transporta- ways to shape the product to be transported. tion or a potential spill of either or both modes of transport. It is an ongoing and moving…. I hesitate to use the word We get to assess the risk and regulate measures to address the target but target of study, perhaps. risk and mitigate the risk through either and both modes of transport. But we don’t get to choose which mode of trans- M. de Jong: I fear and I sense that the minister is backing port will be used. Both of them have been approved by the away from what I thought he…. “Backing away” might be federal government. overly judgmental. Our role is to apply our regulatory authority within the I have taken as a fundamental tenet of what the minister province to mitigate against the environmental impacts of and the government have been saying about this broader either or both modes of transport, and that is exactly what issue that their concern about environmental degradation we propose to do with this study. relating to a catastrophic event, whether it is land-based or [3:25 p.m.] marine-based, relates to a notion of risk that they believe, the minister believes, exists with respect to certain kinds of M. de Jong: I’m obliged, on the strength of that answer transportation — shipping, for example. — and I’ll explore separate portions of it in a moment Let’s be clear. I think the minister and his colleagues — to draw the conclusion that the study contemplated by have had a great deal to say about that. I haven’t asked — the minister will not specifcally address a comparative and I won’t ask — the minister to rate that risk as between assessment of the relative risks between rail, transport and rail transportation and pipeline. I have presented some pipeline. Te minister has, I think, ofered his explanation material that attempts to do that, but I don’t think I’ve for why that is so. unfairly asked the minister to carve out a position on that. Tat seems to me to fy in the face of what I thought I All I am asking him…. heard from the minister earlier, which is that the ministry [3:20 p.m.] doesn’t possess any information but will seek to acquire that Te reason I’m asking him is because, in a moment, I’m information as part of this study. I think the minister is now going to ask him to confrm that the study he keeps referring saying that since there is no jurisdictional authority to favour back to will attempt to do that. Te exercise has been in vain one over the other, to do so would be a moot point. for me if, at the end of the day, the minister’s answers are, Again, have I misinterpreted what the minister is now say- “Well, we don’t know for sure; that’s why we’re doing a study,” ing? and then the study doesn’t address the issue. Te study will only address the issue, I think, if it gets clear Hon. G. Heyman: I guess the answer I can give to the instructions to do so, which is why I attach importance to the member is that we have an interest in as much data and minister saying and agreeing, at a minimum: “Yes, I believe information as we can get, because that data and information it is possible — through experts, through proper methodolo- will be useful to protect British Columbians’ interests. But gies, through proper data — to assess whether or not it is ris- what we are specifcally asking the panel to do is to review kier, on balance, to transport a particular substance one way and assess the risks from the transportation or potential spill or another, on the basis of data and existing technology.” of dilbit from rail or from pipe, and to suggest measures that If the minister isn’t prepared to meet me at least that far could lessen, mitigate or remove those risks in both cases, down the road, then I don’t have a lot of confdence that the because that is what’s within our jurisdiction. study he is relying upon is going to address what, I think, Let me use, again, this example. Te member says he has for the reasons I’ve tried to make a case for, is a fundamental rail on one side of his property, a pipeline on the other. Both issue developing in B.C. are potentially a risk to the member. We think our job and I’m not asking the minister to provide an opinion or a pos- our responsibility for British Columbians is to address both ition. I am merely asking him — yes, as a layperson — on of them and to have a panel suggest ways to lessen the risk the strength of advice he is getting from very capable staf, to on either side of the member’s property. acknowledge, in part on the basis of the material I brought to him, that the comparative risk and relative risk in this case M. de Jong: I suspect that’s as good as it’s going to get for can be measured. I’m hoping that it will be. me on this point. [3:30 p.m.] Hon. G. Heyman: I would say to the member that I think I will simply make the point — and the minister does the member has not understood the purpose of the study or not have to respond — that in my view, in the apparent the milieu in which the study is being conducted. We don’t absence of data and/or studies that the minister and the get, as a provincial government, to decide which mode of ministry feel they can rely upon, it strikes me it would be transport is approved for the interprovincial transportation exceedingly prudent to include in subsequent work, whether of goods, whether we would like to or not. It’s simply outside it’s this study or other work undertaken by the ministry, of our jurisdiction. some means of comparative assessment between the various What we do get to do is to regulate against negative modes of transportation so that ultimately, the ministry, the 3520 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018 government and the public are in a position to assess that and they all require diferent responses. risk. Tat is my submission and recommendation to the For those things that can pose a signifcant hazard or risk, minister. He can do with that what he chooses. I think it’s important for us to do exactly what we are doing, Te fnal tab of material that I wanted to spend a moment which is to assess the form, both of the substance and the referring the minister to is not exactly secretive or new. It’s transport, and its risks — whether those risks can be elimin- the answer to tab 14. Te minister, to be fair, has partially ated, whether they can be mitigated, what actions or meas- answered some of this over the course of our conversation. ures would do that. At one point in my conversation with his colleague the If there is a spill, what’s the appropriate response time Transportation Minister, she said to me, and this is a quote: to prevent catastrophe? Does that difer from area to area “As the Minister of Transportation, I am pretty well agnostic — i.e., geographic response plans? What do we need to do about what is transported on federally regulated lines.” to put in place the measures to do that efectively? What Again, I don’t want to put words in the minister’s mouth, are the responsibilities of the shipment originator? What’s and I’m not entirely certain what the Transportation Minis- the responsibility of the transporter? What’s the liability of ter meant by the word “agnostic.”But does the minister share either of them? Tose are exactly the kinds of things that his colleague’s feelings in that regard? we’ve been considering in intention papers on phase 1 and phase 2. Hon. G. Heyman: It’s really impossible for me to say whether I agree or disagree with the Minister of Trans- M. de Jong: In respect to preventing spills, which the min- portation. I’m not clear what the minister meant by that ister has just mentioned is a component of the mandate…. statement, nor have I discussed it with her. Te minister, In the case of preventing spills, with respect to federally reg- however, is clear to ask me specifc questions about what I ulated rail transport, what does that entail? think. [3:40 p.m.]

M. de Jong: Is the Minister of Environment agnostic Hon. G. Heyman: Let me start with what’s already in about what is carried on federally regulated lines? place as a result of phase 1 of the spill control regulations. We have the ability to place conditions, additional conditions, on Hon. G. Heyman: I’m now going to have to ask the mem- transport. In phase 1, we required contingency plans in the ber exactly what he means by that term with respect to event of a spill. We required reporting on the volume being materials being transported through interprovincial means, transported. We required recovery plans to be in place in because I’m only familiar with the term agnostic in a reli- the event of a spill. Tis is for transportation of volumes in gious context with respect to either belief or not belief. excess of 10,000 litres. And we required drills and exercises so people were ready in the event of a spill. M. de Jong: Te term, as the minister knows, I derive We are now in a consultation phase, in phase 2 of the from comments by his colleague. regulations. Tose require the submission of response times Let me then rephrase the question and use specifc lan- and geographic response plans that are specifc to the unique guage that hopefully is more easily understood or for which geographic challenges in diferent areas. Response times there’s no doubt. I interpreted the minister’s colleague’s com- would guide those. ments as meaning that she was indiferent and had no views We are looking to maximize our regulatory authority over about what is transported on federally regulated lines. spills that impact the marine environment that is within pro- I can change the term. Is the minister indiferent to what vincial jurisdiction, as established over time. We also are is transported on federally regulated lines? proposing liability for the loss of use in the event of a spill that is inadequately or incompletely cleaned up or has an Hon. G. Heyman: No, I’m not indiferent. impact, whether it is on public use, economic use, food fsh- ery or on First Nations rights and title and traditional use. M. de Jong: In what respect? [3:35 p.m.] M. de Jong: Tat’s helpful. I would probably separate them out into two categories, one larger than the other. Te frst, Hon. G. Heyman: As the Minister of Environment — which we talked about earlier, is the relatively recently and this is true for ministry staf — our job is to prevent acquired right to collect information about what is being spills, to be able to respond to spills efectively and to be transported on a federally regulated rail line. And the minis- able to respond to spills in a timely manner. It’s prevention, ter referred to that. response and recovery. We’re not indiferent, to the extent I think the bulk of the other areas that the minister that we care about the substance — its unique characterist- touched on fall into the category of obligations around ics, its properties — and how that dictates a diferent spill response post-accident or post-spill. If I have missed response regime that’s specifc to the substance. For instance, something that doesn’t ft into one of those two categories, is it milk? Is it grain? Is it oil? Is it water? Tey’re all diferent, I’m sure the minister will tell me. Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3521

I’m going to now refer to some things that the minister’s M. de Jong: I’m afraid that I’m going to ask for a bit of colleague said that I think are relevant and that I am inter- specifcity on this. I understand that the government and ested to know whether the minister of the Crown before this the minister have articulated publicly their intention to do committee agrees with. In the exchange…. something, and that is to refer some sort of question — I’m I hope the minister doesn’t doubt the accuracy of what I’m not entirely sure what it is — for a judicial response. I’m not quoting to the committee, but it’s on page 1 of the Hansard aware that that has happened, but I may be incorrect. Has an document, about three-quarters of the page down, where the action or a reference been commenced? Minister of Transportation said: “On the greater picture of what is being carried on the tracks that go through B.C., as I Hon. G. Heyman: We are currently in the process of pre- say, it is a federal responsibility.” Later on, on the same page, paring the reference. she says: “Commodities that are moving on federally regu- lated tracks come under federal legislation.” M. de Jong: Well, that is signifcant. It means that this On page 3 of the Hansard that I have referred to, the min- committee is entirely within its rights to explore with the ister’s colleague says…. By the way, perhaps particularly in minister what he believes his jurisdiction is in these matters. a bit of frustration with me, which this minister may wish In fact, it is a fundamental question that goes to the heart of to replicate at some point, she says: “I’ve tried to be as clear a signifcant issue of public policy. I’m going to be a little bit with the member as possible on this. I think that we are talk- more insistent at this stage. ing about a federally regulated system. Te line” — we were [3:50 p.m.] talking about rail lines — “is federally regulated. I’m not in Is it the minister’s view that the Ministry of Environment a position to talk yes or no, whether the federal government — the Crown in the right of the province of British should be allowing certain products on the line. Tere is a Columbia, through the Ministry of Environment — has the federal regulation…. We are working under federal jurisdic- ability, has the jurisdictional authority, to limit the volume of tion when it comes to this. I’m not going to say that one thing bitumen carried by rail through British Columbia? is good and one thing isn’t good.” It’s federal legislation. Finally, on page 4, she says: “Te ministry is not aware Hon. G. Heyman: I’ve never contested the member’s right of any way in our regulatory framework in which we could to pursue questioning in this regard, just to be clear. limit the transfer.” We were talking about bitumen on rail. I have always said, with respect to these particular pro- “It’s a federal jurisdiction, and we are working within that posals, that we believe, as government, that under the Envir- framework.” Maybe I’ll start where I end there. Te impres- onmental Management Act, we have both the right and the sion I drew from the minister’s colleague was that she was responsibility to enact regulations to protect B.C.’s environ- not aware of any means by which the government, her min- ment, our economy and our interests. Tere are a number istry, could limit the transport of bitumen by rail. of court decisions, both in British Columbia and other [3:45 p.m.] provinces in Canada, that essentially point to the right of Te question that I have for the minister is: does he have provinces to enact regulations to protect their environment. regulatory jurisdiction or authority to do that very thing? M. de Jong: So far, no dispute. Does that jurisdiction, does Hon. G. Heyman: As my friend across, who is a lawyer, that right, does that authority extend as far as limiting the knows, the law is complex. It’s nuanced. It’s rarely clear-cut. volume of a product — any product, for that matter — being I venture that the member opposite and many other lawyers transported on a federally regulated rail line? probably would have made a far less substantial living if the [3:55 p.m.] law was always clear-cut and wasn’t subject to some form of dispute in the courts. It’s important to recognize that this Hon. G. Heyman: Again, the law is nuanced. Tere are nuance exists. a lots of examples of…. I’ll use rail, specifcally. While rail We believe, in the Ministry of Environment, that we have is federally regulated, there is lots of room for the province a responsibility to protect B.C.’s environment, our coastline to regulate. and our economy. We proposed a range of measures for One example is: where there are invasive species on a rail new regulations, which we were about to embark on a con- line, we may require the rail company to obtain a pesticide sultation process with respect to. One of them was a restric- use permit and deal with the invasive species. Where coal tion on the additional transport of diluted bitumen until is being transported by railcar, and there is a threat of coal we completed a scientifc study. As the member well knows, dust to human health, we may require the railway company not everybody agreed with us. Tat matter has now been to take measures to control that dust so that it isn’t a risk to referred to the courts to clarify our jurisdiction. human health. We believe that we have certain rights, and we thought that the most efective way to address those was to take it to M. de Jong: Again, helpful. Let’s take the example, then, if the appropriate place, which is the court. the minister is more comfortable…. He’s mentioned coal and coal dust. I recall the exercise of 3522 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018 that regulatory authority. Does that room to regulate, which with the member opposite. First of all, I’m going to, with per- is the phrase the minister has just used a moment ago, mission, clarify what I believe the extent of provincial regu- extend as far as determining the volume of coal that a rail- latory authority, or at least the nature of provincial regulat- road could carry? ory authority, is with respect to interprovincial transporta- [4:00 p.m.] tion of products. I wouldn’t call it a parallel authority. I think it’s more like a supplementary authority. Perhaps that’s what [J. Rice in the chair.] the member meant, but I think it’s important that I say how I think this regime works. Hon. G. Heyman: I’m not sure that it’s particularly ger- mane to address the question of coal. I think the issue before [R. Kahlon in the chair.] us is: what is the responsibility of the government of B.C., in terms of using our regulatory authority, to protect our envir- To be as clear as I can with the member, on January 30 onment, to protect our economy and to protect the interests of this year, we announced and I spoke publicly about the of British Columbia? concerns this government has about the risk of transporta- We believe that we have a responsibility to look at the full tion of diluted bitumen by both rail and pipeline. We based extent of our regulatory authority in order to protect B.C.’s that concern on knowledge of a study conducted by the Roy- environment, our economy, our coastline and our interests. al Society of Canada on the behaviour of diluted bitumen Tat’s exactly what we’re doing, and that will ultimately be that pointed to several specifc gaps in knowledge about spill clarifed and defned by the courts. prevention and behaviour of diluted bitumen in both fresh and salt water and the ability to recover that. M. de Jong: I’m happy to apologize to the minister. I was What we announced was our proposal to consult with simply drawing on an example that he presented to the com- British Columbians and stakeholders, through an intentions mittee. I thought he might derive some comfort. paper on a regulatory proposal, to limit the increase in trans- Look, the minister says, I think correctly…. He speaks of portation of diluted bitumen by rail or by pipe until we had the mandate and the responsibility for environmental pro- gathered the results of a scientifc study so that we could tection. Fine. He cites some examples that on the surface properly exercise our supplementary regulatory authority to I think are accurate, about where there is a provincial jur- protect British Columbians’ interests against an environ- isdiction that runs at least parallel, if I can use that term, mental catastrophe. or engages a federally regulated activity. He talks about coal [4:10 p.m.] dust from coal trains, invasive species along rail lines. Te minister and his government are asserting a jurisdic- M. de Jong: Well, the good news is the minister was rel- tional authority. Tat’s their right. I am asking, for the pur- atively clear. Te bad news is he was relatively clear about pose of what I have engaged in with the minister over this everything except the question I asked him. last day and a bit…. Tis is a salient point. It is a salient point, Tree specifc questions. I understand, quite frankly, I am going to suggest in a moment, going forward, for a basic that the minister doesn’t want to answer, and I think I reason. Do the minister and the government assert that that understand why. Te minister, over the course of our dis- regulatory authority, responsibility, includes the authority to cussion today, has, I think, fairly and properly referred to regulate the volume of a product being carried on a federally areas of supplementary regulatory authority. In the case of regulated rail line? diluted bitumen, he has talked about things like regulatory If the minister wants me to be specifc, I will be, again — requirements around the contingency on spills, recovery, in this case, bitumen. Does the regulatory authority that the response time and liabilities. Fair enough. I guess we’ll see minister is asserting extend to determining the volume? It is the result of that work. for the minister and the government to make that case. If the I have asked him, and will again, a very specifc question minister’s answer today is, “Well, that’s for me to know and about whether or not he and the government assert that the you to fnd out,” that’s not good enough. Tat’s not actually provincial government has the authority and the jurisdiction good enough because of what this involves going forward. to regulate actual volumes of bitumen. Yes or no? [4:05 p.m.] I mean, I always used to say to people that it’s a yes or no Hon. G. Heyman: I’m going to tell the member opposite answer. I’d say: “You ask the questions, and I’ll answer them exactly what I’ve said repeatedly since January 30 when we as best I can.” But it kind of is. If the minister is asserting introduced fve points as the basis for consultation, through that the provincial government can determine and regulate an intentions paper on regulations to protect British the volume of a product carried on a line, that’s one thing. Columbia’s interests, our coastline and our environment. I’ve If that’s not his assertion, then that is quite a diferent thing said repeatedly that we believe that we have authority under and, of course, will lead to diferent outcomes. So which is it? the Environmental Management Act to regulate protections against negative impacts on our environment and our Hon. G. Heyman: I am going to try to be as clear as I can interests through a potential spill of diluted bitumen. Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3523

[4:15 p.m.] I’ll give him another chance. Doesn’t it fow, from what he During a number of press conferences, people challenged tried to do on January 30, that he claims that jurisdiction? whether we had the constitutional authority to do that. People pointed out that the federal government and the gov- Hon. G. Heyman: I’m sorry that the member is feeling ernment of Alberta contested our right to do that. In other some frustration. It’s not my intent to frustrate the member. cases, there has been commentary by legal scholars in the If he would like a recess to recover from the frustration, we media, in print and radio, that points to the areas that argue may both need that shortly. that we do have that jurisdiction. Let me simply state again that I believe I’ve answered the My claim, when I’ve been asked that question, is that the member’s question. On January 30, we asserted both our court ultimately is the place where this issue will be decided right and our responsibility to protect British Columbians’ and defned. If we did not believe that we had the authority interests and environment against the impacts of a spill of to enact regulations in this area, to protect B.C.’s interest, we diluted bitumen, whether by rail or by pipeline, and we pro- would not have prepared a reference case to the court, and posed that we needed more information on that. we would not have retained Joe Arvay to represent us in that Tat should be no surprise to the member. Te Royal reference case. Society of Canada indicated the same thing. Te federal gov- ernment announced they’re spending $45 million to gather M. de Jong: Just because the minister referred to it, a bit of that information, and we announced a more modest scientif- a leap of faith for us. Now, the reference case has not, to my ic advisory panel to review all the existing information and knowledge, been initiated. Te public, never mind us, are at any information that comes forward. a loss to know exactly what the court is being asked. Can the We also announced, in what the member refers to as point minister advise by what date that reference will be launched? 5, that we thought — while we were gathering the inform- ation necessary to place any conditions required to further Hon. G. Heyman: I believe I answered this question yes- protect British Columbians — we would consult with British terday when it was asked by the member for Kam- Columbians about whether there should be a restriction on loops–North Tompson. Te answer was — if I didn’t the increase in the shipment of diluted bitumen by rail or by answer it yesterday, the answer is today — that the timing pipe while we identifed measures that could and should be and the amount of time necessary to properly prepare the taken to protect British Columbians’ interests. reference case is, of course, in the hands of counsel Joe We would not have brought that proposal forward if we Arvay. So I can’t give the member an exact answer. Obvi- didn’t believe it was within our authority. We would not have ously, we want to bring it forward. But we’re going to make retained Joe Arvay or prepared a reference for the courts if sure that the time necessary to get it right is taken. we didn’t believe it was in our authority but needed to be tested. So that’s what we’ve done. Tat’s the best answer I can M. de Jong: I said at the outset I was going to not allow give the member, and that is the answer. any degree of frustration to tinge the exchange with the min- With that, perhaps it is time for a recess. ister. I will try to hold true to that, but I’m frustrated. I don’t understand why the minister has such difculty with the Te Chair: Members, we’re going to take a fve-minute basic question. In efect, his own documentation provides recess. what I thought would be his answer. We go back to the infamous press release of January 30 Te committee recessed from 4:24 p.m. to 4:35 p.m. and the equally infamous point 5, where the minister indic- ated his intention to restrict the increase of diluted bitumen, [R. Kahlon in the chair.] pending some additional events. Implicit in that, I should think, is the minister’s belief that he and the provincial gov- M. de Jong: I was thinking during the brief recess that at ernment have the right to determine the volume of product this point, maybe, I would try to summarize where I think being transported on a federally regulated rail line. It follows we’re at. Te minister may choose to refute some of my asser- logically. tions or not. Candidly, I sort of hope he would, but we’ll see. Why is the minister incapable of standing in the House Over the course of our discussion today, the minister has today and saying…? By the way, I disagree with him. I think alerted the committee to the jurisdictional authority that he knows that. If that is his position — it was certainly his he believes the Ministry of Environment, the Minister of position on January 30 — then stand in the House and be Environment, the Crown in Right of the Province of British clear. Stand behind the document that he presented and say: Columbia has with respect to matters pertaining — “supple- “Actually, yes. I believe that the provincial government and mentary basis” was a term he used — to the transport of the Ministry of Environment have the jurisdictional author- goods by rail. Ten he gave us a few examples that I actu- ity to limit the volume of a product — in this case, bitumen ally thought were good examples in terms of describing what — being carried on a federally regulated rail line.” the room to regulate includes. He talked about invasive spe- [4:20 p.m.] cies along rail lines. I’ve seen that frsthand, the spraying, and 3524 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018 the need for a permit to spray. He has talked about coal dust in the ability and the jurisdiction of the province to regulate in the case of the transportation of coal, which takes place that is not abstract. It is not a moot point, because this is extensively. happening now. I have presented material to the minister I asked him whether, specifcally, that regulatory authority that speaks, admittedly, to national volumes that are doub- extended to determining the volume of products — in this ling, tripling, quadrupling, and British Columbia will not be case, bitumen. Te minister has been very reluctant to immune from that. And I have presented evidence to the answer that specifc question specifcally. I have referred him minister about the relative risks associated with the trans- back to his ministry’s own press release of the 30th, which portation of that product by rail versus the transportation of suggests that he believes that authority exists to regulate — that product by pipeline. determine, limit — volumes of products on rail lines, but he I hope, and that’s all I can do at this stage, that in the won’t say that specifcally. And this is where I speculate, and course of the research that is to be undertaken, the minister the minister may choose to respond or not. will at least have the foresight and the willingness to advise I think he refuses to answer that question specifcally those doing that work that it is a relevant question to ask. because he has received advice — and the government has Surely it goes to the heart of discharging the mandate and received advice — that the answer is no and that, actually, the responsibility to protect the environment, and that is to the supplementary regulatory authority does not extend that choose avenues of transport that minimize the risk of dam- far and that it is no more available to the province of British age. Tere is, I would suggest, a compelling body of evidence Columbia to determine the volume of bitumen or coal trav- that says rail is riskier than a pipeline. elling on federally regulated rail lines coming westward than Production levels going up. Pipeline full. Rail volumes it would be for a province to our east to limit or regulate the going up on a mode of transportation that is inherently ris- volume of products coming through the port of Vancouver kier. Tat will continue to occur until such time as either the and moving east. price of energy drops or there is a safer, less risky alternat- If that is the argument that the minister intends to take ive — that being a pipeline that, yes, has received regulatory to the court, then I believe he is going to be…. I actually approval from two levels of government. Tat is a choice that don’t think, to be fair, that is the argument that the minister the minister and the government have made. intends to take to the court, although he declined to answer I think I am quoting accurately from memory, where the the question directly in these proceedings today. statements…. We haven’t gotten into this in this committee, Why do I think it’s relevant? Here’s why I think it’s relev- but I believe I’m quoting accurately, from the political state- ant. Because I have tried, over the course of yesterday and ments that have been made, that the government is resolved today, to present a plausible case to the minister and the gov- to use every means possible to prevent the construction of ernment that some things are happening now — that the the pipeline that has received regulatory authority. volume of bitumen being transported by rail in North Amer- [4:45 p.m.] ica, in Canada, in British Columbia is on the rise, not just a I disagree with that. I disagree with it for a variety of little bit but a lot. reasons. At the top is the fact that, by virtue of taking [4:40 p.m.] that course, the government is responsible for the fact that At one point during that exchange, I thought the minister volumes of bitumen being transported by an inherently came perilously close to conceding the point, when he talked riskier mode of transportation — that is, rail — will con- about price, the per-barrel price of energy. He’s right, and I tinue to rise. Tat is the result of the course that the gov- said to him he’s partly right. ernment has chosen. People that live along those routes What determines, in my view and in the view of the who used to see one train a week or one train a month will experts that I have consulted via the research, the volume now see multiple trains a day. of bitumen, crude, being transported by rail is two things. God forbid there should be a disaster as those trains roll It is price, which determines production levels, and they down that line — adjacent to the Yellowhead, into Kam- are on the ascendancy. Again, the minister did not want to loops, over to Cache Creek, down the Fraser Canyon. I didn’t be drawn into accepting or, to be fair, rejecting the data. even ask the minister about the studies I hope the ministry I actually think, at this stage of the game, the government has done — because I know they do contingency studies and the minister have some obligation to do so — if not — about the damage that would result if one of those ever- here, then elsewhere. Te body of evidence is pretty over- increasing numbers of trains carrying bitumen fall into the whelming that production levels are on the increase. Tat Fraser River and the Fraser Canyon. has to do with price. Te government has purposely and deliberately Te other thing that determines the volume being trans- embarked upon a strategy of delay with the objective of ported by rail is: what? Te availability of an alternative. Te ultimately denying a safer form of transportation through pipe is full. Te pipeline is full, so producers who are pro- British Columbia that will — not speculatively, but we ducing more of the product are fnding alternatives, and the know today — increase the environmental risk by trans- alternative they’re shifing towards is rail. ferring ever-greater volumes to rail. Tat’s a choice. Tat My question to the minister about the ability or his belief is a choice, and the government and the minister will be Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3525 answerable for that choice. said, and what we are saying, is that there is risk through transport by pipeline. Tere’s risk through transport by rail. [N. Simons in the chair.] Wherever there is an increase, it’s our job, as the government of British Columbia, to get the information we need about I have endeavoured, over the course of the work of this every measure we can take to prevent a spill to the greatest committee, to present to the minister and the government extent possible, to mitigate the impacts to the greatest extent my concerns around that choice and my view of what is possible, including response time, recovery time and meth- already resulting from that choice. Not what might result, ods of recovery. but what is already resulting from the exercise of that choice. We wanted to gather information to help advise those It is not, in my view, in the best interest of environmental measures, and we wanted to insulate British Columbia protection. against further risk while we had a chance to study those, Whilst the minister has taken great pains to point out, apply them and work with the federal government where both within this committee and in other venues and at other appropriate to do that. Tat is what we’re trying to do. We times, his commitment to protecting the environmental val- are not taking measures to choose one mode of transport, ues of the province — which, by the way, I don’t doubt — which the member has claimed is more risky. Tat may be in this case, perhaps for political expediency or because of the case, but that also depends on the form of the bitumen pressure being brought to bear on the government by polit- being transported, as I think the member knows, as well ical partners, he and the government have adopted a course as any new technologies that become available, all of which that has now and will certainly have in the future the oppos- we’re interested in learning through advice from a scientifc ite impact and involve greater environmental risk, not less. advisory panel. Tat represents the equivalent of my summary statement. In any event, whatever the outcome, whatever the result or I suspect there’s lots of what I have said that the minister the mode of transportation, we take seriously our respons- would take issue with, but I have tried, over the course of ibility to do everything within our jurisdiction to protect yesterday and today, to wrap my submission in available British Columbia’s interests, environmental and otherwise, facts and available data. against a spill from any form of transportation. Some of that As always, I’m obliged to the minister for his patience will take the form of, as we have, working with and lobbying with me and to his staf for the assistance they’ve given the the federal government. Some of it will be taking measures minister. that are within our jurisdiction. Finally, I would just like to say that I appreciate the organ- Hon. G. Heyman: Tank you to the member for his sum- ized manner in which the member brought forward a num- mary. He said I may take issue with a number of his state- ber of studies and documents and provided them with high- ments, and of course, I do. lighting from the beginning. Tey will certainly be reviewed, Tere is one that I think it’s important for me to correct. as well as referred to the panel. We welcome any contribu- Te member attempted to…. I think he said…. I’m quoting, tion. I think we may disagree over methodology. We may I hope accurately, but whether it’s a quote or a paraphrase…. even disagree over jurisdiction. But I think the bottom line [4:50 p.m.] is, none of us in this House wants to see a spill. But if we do, Neither I, the Premier nor any member of our govern- we want to ensure that we’ve done everything we could to ment has said that we would use every means available to prevent it and everything we can to respond to it quickly and delay, to deny the pipeline. Tat is not what we’ve said. What efectively. we’ve said is that we’ll use every tool in the toolbox to defend B.C.’s coast, our economy and our interests. Tat is substant- P. Milobar: Just a couple more questions for the minister ively diferent in every sense of the word, so I want to put on this particular line that I’m seeking some greater clarifc- that on the record. ation on, and then I’ll move on to some other areas. Ten I also want to say, with respect to the member, that Recognizing that the minister is not a lawyer, as far as I think the member is missing a key point in what we have I understand it, and is, therefore, I believe, not a constitu- tried to do with both phase 1 and phase 2 of the spill control tional expert…. I’m certainly not a constitutional expert or a regulations. Te fact is that the federal government gives lawyer. Although my brother does have his doctorate on the approval to modes of transport, and we, as a provincial gov- constitutional history of Canada, I didn’t get that knowledge ernment, have the ability to attach supplementary conditions by osmosis, so I wouldn’t profess to be an expert in it either. to any approval given by the federal government. But wheth- However, it would strike me that in my past roles, in my past er or not the pipeline is delayed, is completed, is built, is ulti- life, if I was to engage a lawyer and pay for a lawyer…. mately at the mercy of a number of factors. [4:55 p.m.] It could be the result of a case currently before the federal In this case, the government has sought out a very high- Court of Appeal. It could be a decision of the company itself level, very credible…. One would assume a reasonable bill to do something diferent. It could be any number of things attached to the legal counsel they’ve sought out, and it’s nice which might result in no pipeline. In that case, what we’ve to see a government doing that to make sure that the cit- 3526 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018 izens of British Columbia are well represented. However, one ulation around those types of things. We’re asking specifc- would hope, if a minister and the Premier are going to go ally about his belief about the restriction of the transporta- to that step — to pay for a lawyer to seek an opinion from tion of the volume of a commodity across a national rail line a court — that the minister was pursuing that because they or pipeline — something that goes across provincial bound- had a deep-seated belief that they had a right to do what aries. What is the point of initiating this legal process if the they’re asking the courts to allow them to do. minister himself doesn’t actually believe that they have the In this case, given that the minister’s own press release right as a province to restrict the volume? says that they want to restrict the fow of diluted bitumen, [5:00 p.m.] by rail or pipeline, through British Columbia, to the point We’re not asking about weed control, to be very clear. that they have to engage a lawyer to go to the Supreme Court I’m not asking about dust control of coal trains. I’m asking and get an opinion, I fnd it hard to believe that the minister about a very specifc clause, point 5, that is now being ref- can’t stand here today in estimates and say that he believes erenced back to the courts around the ability to restrict the B.C. has the right to restrict the volume of fow of diluted volume of a commodity. I’m not asking the minister whether bitumen or any other commodity by rail or pipeline in the or not the courts are going to rule in the provincial favour. province of British Columbia. I’m asking the minister whether he personally believes that, If he doesn’t truly believe that, are we just engaging law- as the Minster of Environment, he has the ability to restrict yers — very high-priced, qualifed lawyers, at a very high the volumes, along rail lines and pipelines, of those types of price, one would assume — to go on a fshing expedition commodities. without the full backing of the province and the minister and the Premier that they truly believe they’re on solid footing Hon. G. Heyman: As I’ve said, we wouldn’t have and their belief is strong enough that they’re willing to go to announced our intention to consult British Columbians the court and be proven correct? on a proposed regulation, through an intentions paper, if Can the minister not confrm that he truly believes that we didn’t believe we had the right and responsibility, under British Columbia has the right to restrict the volume of the Environmental Management Act, to protect B.C.’s diluted bitumen by rail or by pipeline? environment, our coastline and our interests. We wouldn’t have announced that we intended to take a reference case, Hon. G. Heyman: Let me simply say again: January 30, and we wouldn’t have retained Joe Arvay to present that we introduced and had a press conference to announce that reference case. we were going to consult with British Columbians on fve Seeing as the member for Abbotsford West said that he proposed regulations, through an intentions paper, that were thought it was clear, through our news release, what we, and intended to protect British Columbians against a spill of oil I, believed, let me read what we said in the news release: products. Te ffh point said that we were proposing to “For the second phase, the province will be looking for feed- restrict any additional shipments of diluted bitumen by rail back in fve areas.” I won’t read the frst four. Te ffh says: or pipeline until we could review the results of a scientif- “Restrictions on the increase of diluted bitumen, dilbit, ic advisory panel to help answer the questions identifed by transportation until the behaviour of spilled bitumen can be the Royal Society of Canada about gaps in our knowledge of better understood and there is certainty regarding the ability how to prevent spills and how to efectively respond to and to adequately mitigate spills.” recover them if they occur. I said, in response to many questions, that I believe we P. Milobar: Well, I’d point out that that bullet does not have the right and responsibility under the Environmental say: “We will initiate a reference situation with the courts Management Act to introduce regulations to protect British around our ability to restrict the fow of diluted bitumen in Columbia’s environmental and other interests. the province.”It says the ministry is going to consult with the We were challenged. We are preparing to refer the matter public, not reference the courts. to the court where it belongs. Te member is incorrect that In the weeks that unfolded aferwards, it became, afer the a decision has been made about which court. We’ll take trade war was started and eventually got wrapped up…. Te advice from our lawyer on that. Tat’s why we retained a very announcement that point 5 was no longer going to be part of experienced and very well-respected legal counsel to take the frst four and that it was going to go to a reference was this reference to the court on our behalf. when we saw the trade war end. [5:05 p.m.] P. Milobar: I just made a natural assumption we’d be To keep things in a timeline, that is why it’s important going to the Supreme Court because that would take the to fgure out whether or not the minister truly believes that longest time and that would seem to ft with the mandate of the province has the right to restrict volumes, given that where we’re at so far. the province of British Columbia taxpayers are going to be Again, we haven’t been asking questions of the minister facing, one can only assume, a very substantial legal bill, paid about consulting, about invasive weed control along rail lines for out of ministry operations or whichever fund funds the or the ability to restrict or have province-by-province reg- legal fght, for a position that the government is taking. Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3527

Is the minister saying that at the same time as a reference Te reason I’m asking this is because I’m wondering if the will be going to the courts, we will be engaging on a public minister, then, could explain how a restriction on volume consultation process around restricting volumes of diluted could come into efect, even temporarily, when, for the better bitumen when we don’t even know if the minister believes part of yesterday, it was made abundantly clear that there that we have the provincial authority and the right to actually were no records or no knowledge of any volumes currently restrict that or not, given that we’re going to get a reference? transported within British Columbia. What was this pro- posed restriction going to be based on for volume? Was it Hon. G. Heyman: Let me start by addressing one of the going to be based on a date, and that would be the cutof? Is statements of the member for Kamloops–North Tompson, it based on…? which was that actions that this government took initiated I think industry deserves to know an answer to that, and I a trade war. First of all, in order to have a war, you actually certainly think the public has an expectation of understand- need two parties at war, and that’s not the case here. ing what a nice bullet form sounds like in terms of: “We’re What happened was the B.C. government announced our going to restrict.”But I don’t understand how you can restrict intention to consult with British Columbians on fve pro- something when you haven’t been able to quantify, over the posed regulations through an intentions paper. Te province last two days, the volume that we’re currently seeing coming of Alberta, frst of all, claimed unilaterally — and I don’t through those transportation networks. believe Premier Notley is a constitutional lawyer either — that we had no constitutional jurisdiction to do this and Hon. G. Heyman: I don’t recall, nor can the staf who are then went further by unlawfully restricting the importation with me today, saying once in the last two days that we inten- of British Columbia wines into her province. ded to consult on point 5 of what was announced on January We responded — I think appropriately and in a mature 30. It’s not part of the intentions paper. I certainly know it’s manner — by not escalating on the same level or responding not part of the intentions paper. I don’t believe I said that. I on the same level but by saying: “We’ll refer this point to have no recollection of saying that. the courts, where it should be determined, not by unlawful If the member for Kamloops–North Tompson fnds a actions or actions that hurt innocent parties.” As a result of statement in Hansard that says that or can be construed as that, innocent parties are no longer being hurt. I don’t feel saying that, then I will certainly clarify that on the record any need to apologize or explain that. later this afernoon or tomorrow. Te member for Kamloops–North Tompson asked if In terms of our knowledge base, I addressed that yester- we’re simultaneously consulting on point 5 while the court day when I said that when we announced our intention to reference is being prepared and, ultimately, taken forward. consult with British Columbians…. We said we expected Te member is free to review the intentions paper that is that to take the better part of 2018, and that during those now a public record and is out for consultation, but the months, we would be gathering all manner of information answer to the question is no. It’s not part of that intentions and data that would be useful to the ministry in carry- paper. ing out our mandate to defend British Columbia’s interests Te member for Abbotsford West and the member for and environment. Kamloops–North Tompson have taken now, probably, well over two hours efectively trying to put words in my mouth, P. Milobar: I’ll take it from that, then, that we don’t know so let me give the words again. Point 5 says: “Restrictions on yet if a restriction would be 400,000 barrels, 100,000 barrels. the increase of diluted bitumen, dilbit, transportation until We’re not really sure how many thousands of barrels. the behaviour of spilled bitumen can be better understood A couple more questions on this, and then I do intend and there is certainty regarding the ability to adequately mit- to move on. However, in my part of the world, the riding igate spills.” I come from, we have both major national highways. We [5:10 p.m.] have both major national rail lines. Te interesting quirk of all of those meeting in downtown Kamloops next to two P. Milobar: Te concerns are that several of the answers rivers — two major rivers that supply the largest salmon today have referenced, in spite of the intentions paper saying run in the world — is that the next place east of Kamloops that it won’t be simultaneous…. Te answers have been that, where that same situation works and everything comes in fact, we’re consulting with the public around the restric- together is . tions on diluted bitumen. We see a whole lot of rail trafc and, in fact, it’s the only Tose have been the answers that the minister has been place — knowing how the two rail lines are much like two providing, leaving the impression to the general public that sof drink companies that generally don’t like to work there will be ongoing public consultations around that part together if they don’t have to…. of clause 5, a clause which…. We cannot seem to have the [5:15 p.m.] minister even publicly state very clearly that he believes the From Kamloops down is essentially one-way trafc on the provincial government has the full right and authority to tracks where CN and CP share the lines going in each dir- restrict the volumes of a commodity. ection. Teir trains can run directionally in one direction on 3528 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018 one set of tracks and come back to Kamloops on the other of the residents of Kamloops, as I do with any member of set of tracks. Tey can’t keep up with the volume otherwise this House. — given the Fraser Canyon and how steep it is, the lack of [5:20 p.m.] ability to double track and those types of scenarios. It’s the Te supposition that we included rail simply because we only place in Canada this happens, so a very unique topo- were trying to create cover for real intentions is just not graphy and geography going on within Kamloops and down correct. And to demonstrate that fact, phase 1 of the spill through the Fraser Canyon. control regulations was introduced by the previous Lib- Te reason I state that is that in my riding this comes eral government. Tey focused on transport of petroleum up quite ofen with the people I bump into and meet with products by rail, pipeline or truck over 10,000 litres. So since the release of the various press releases and intentions that was phase 1. papers. Now, I don’t have any notes from these meetings Te trend to cover the various modes of transporting pet- or discussions, and I didn’t take minutes, but that seems to roleum products was started by the previous government in be norm. However, unlike other meetings, I actually have phase 1. We completed that consultation, tweaked the reg- a recollection of what’s been said at those meetings, so I’m ulations somewhat, changed some of what was originally going to convey that back to the minister. brought forward to strengthen it a bit and then enacted those Tere’s a big concern in Kamloops that there seems to be regulations. a tacit — that’s probably not the right word — way of trying In phase 2, we focused very specifcally on rail and to do an end run here without specifcally saying “pipeline” pipeline — again on hydrocarbons because they form the by including rail lines into the dilbit study and making sure bulk of what is transported in the way of hazardous goods that the research is done around protecting the environment. by rail and pipeline in British Columbia. But as the member I think everyone wants to make sure we protect the envir- points out, by no means are they the only products or the onment. However, as I said, the largest salmon run in the only products that create risk for communities. world runs right through Kamloops up to the Adams River, We aren’t doing everything at once because it’s an issue so those people have legitimate concerns. of capacity and what we can efectively review at one time, If the minister and the ministry have the same under- enact regulations to control and then move on. Diferent standing or a higher level of understanding of how certain products attract diferent audiences, diferent stakeholders products react in the water in the case of a spill, or how to and diferent people, and they may actually require diferent even prevent a spill or how to clean up a spill properly on people involved in the review. things like methyl bromide, which is one of the worst con- Tat’s our rationale. But we will, in fact, be moving on taminants you can possibly imagine when it hits water…. to address other hazardous substances, and I look forward Ethyltrichlorosilane is highly toxic when mixed with to hearing more from the member. And if the member is water. It creates a hydrogen chloride gas. We have molten suggesting that we might want to consider, to protect the sulfur. We have urea. We have phosphorous ammonium interests of the residents of Kamloops, a restriction on nitrate, chlorine, hyperchloric acid, ethanol, sulphuric acid increases in any of those products before we consider or — all of these, coming through Kamloops on rail lines enact regulations, I’m sure he’ll bring that idea forward. almost on a daily basis. Are there plans to study and restrict the volumes of any P. Milobar: Unlike the minister, I don’t believe the of these very hazardous compounds if they escaped into province has the ability to restrict the fow of those goods the environment? Surely, they would wreak environmental that would be fowing straight through a port to other parts damage. Or are we confdent as a ministry that we know of the country. So I wouldn’t be requesting that restriction on everything about those compounds and we know much less the volume. about diluted bitumen? One last question, I guess, maybe two. In terms of the pipeline, it runs through a third of the overall length of Hon. G. Heyman: First of all, I appreciate the member the pipeline, give or take a couple of kilometres. It actually bringing forward the concerns of residents of Kamloops. runs through my riding, so I probably have the single largest Kamloops is a beautiful place that I’ve always enjoyed vis- stretch of the Kinder Morgan pipeline of any of the con- iting, and I know the member has spent many years rep- stituencies in the province. Especially if you take the Alberta resenting people in Kamloops. I’ve always enjoyed talk- section of the pipeline out, I’d probably have half of British ing to the people in Kamloops. I think Kamloops plays Columbia’s section in my riding. an important role in B.C.’s cultural life and its historical I’m wondering. Te minister is very well acquainted with, life and its economic life. It is, as the member points out, and has spoken ofen about, First Nations opposed to the unique in terms of being a confuence — and the wildlife pipeline. Certainly, they’re within their rights to seek judg- values and other values. ments in court and proceed how they feel they need to pro- Let me just say, also, that I look forward at any time ceed — the First Nations that feel that way. I’m just wonder- to working with the member on any specifc or particular ing — I haven’t heard it before, so I could have missed it — if environmental concerns that he brings forward on behalf the minister could maybe share with us if he’s aware of First Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3529

Nations that are supportive of the pipeline, and if he actually Hon. G. Heyman: One of the nations that has expressed knows what their names would be. support, a sort of support, is the Tk’emlúps, from the min- [5:25 p.m.] ister’s region. Tere are 40 other groups who have submit- ted one form or another of supportive letter. But what’s Hon. G. Heyman: I think the answer to the question is difcult to ascertain is whether the supportive letter was that there’s a diference between support and signing a bene- a condition of receiving benefts or whether it was a sup- ft agreement. portive letter standing on its own. It’s also difcult to know Some nations may have signed a beneft agreement and all of the nations and all of the agreements that were made support the pipeline. Others may not have signed the beneft with Kinder Morgan because those haven’t all been pub- agreement and oppose the pipeline. Some may neither licly posted. oppose nor support the pipeline — or oppose the pipeline — [5:35 p.m.] but have signed a beneft agreement because, if the pipeline is completed, they want to receive some beneft to address P. Milobar: I have several colleagues that want to ask the impacts on them. Tose agreements are negotiated by some regional questions. You’ll be able to get of of this line, the proponent, the company. As such, I think it’s probably and it’ll be all over the map. I apologize a bit for that, but it’ll more appropriately a question for the company. re-engage you, I guess. I just wanted to make the point that I respect nations I will just end on the First Nations piece, though, and that support or oppose a particular project, especially for say, frankly, there’s no other word than “astounded” with reasons related to either, on the one hand, benefts to them that answer. It sounded almost like if you’re a First Nation or, on the other hand, perceived negative impacts to them. and opposed to the pipeline, you’re standing on principle. But I think it’s important not to confate a benefts agree- If you’re a First Nation and you’ve signed an agreement, ment with support. it’s not a principled stand. You’re actually for it. You maybe have economic benefts coming in terms of corporations Te Chair: Minister. Member. and companies that you’ve set up to employ your youth, training opportunities, educational opportunities and lots P. Milobar: I’ll take the promotion. [Laughter.] of other benefts agreements, and you are somehow Apparently he likes my questions more than your answers. strong-armed into this. Tat was going to be my last, but I need to follow up on Knowing, personally, many of the chiefs and councils that that because I think all residents of British Columbia want have signed these agreements and what they’ve gone into, to know that their provincial government understands and I’m, frankly, astounded that that was the answer. You know, supports them, especially governmental bodies. just the fact that there’s a beneft agreement signed doesn’t I’m very confdent. Given that the government has joined necessarily mean that they really wanted to sign it and that court actions with First Nations or attempted to…. I’m not they actually really wanted to support a project. sure if they still are or not. It gets a little convoluted there I’ll leave it at that for now — but, wow. I will turn it over when we’re dropping in and out and when the Crown is to the member from Kelowna. fghting the Crown in court or not. However, I’m fairly con- fdent that the minister would be able to rattle of a list of the Te Chair: Members, I think we’ll take a fve-minute First Nations that are opposed. recess, and we’ll reconvene in fve minutes. I guess I’ll reframe the question. Not reading into it that the beneft agreement would necessarily constitute, in the Te committee recessed from 5:36 p.m. to 5:43 p.m. minister’s mind, full support by that particular First Nation, I think the First Nations would be interested, especially in [N. Simons in the chair.] my area, to know if their minister is aware of them and the fact that they have beneft agreements and are looking for- N. Letnick: Tank you to my colleagues for allowing me a ward to a project moving forward. Afer all, governments are chance to ask a question to the minister. supposed to represent all — or, at least, acknowledge all — First, I want to start by thanking the minister and the viewpoints in a community in the broader province. Minister of Health as well. I presented a challenge to the I think they would like to know if the Minister of Environ- ministers regarding Crystal Waters and the inspections of ment — who’s going to be, potentially, working on lots of dif- their area, their strata, and said that it was probably more ferent projects or studies with First Nations, on a wide vari- appropriate under the Minister of Health’s jurisdiction. ety of topics, in my area and along the pipeline — through Within a week, it was switched over. I’d just like to congratu- his staf, is aware of what those names are, because there’s a late both ministers on the quick action on that. long list. I think they would like to know that their govern- My subject has to do with something that’s very important ment acknowledges that they’re out there. to all British Columbians, but in particular to those who [5:30 p.m.] have waterways near them. Tat’s the impact of invasive quagga and zebra mussels. As the minister knows, they have 3530 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018 infltrated many parts of North America. Luckily for the Hon. G. Heyman: First of all, thank you to the member PNWER area, the Pacifc NorthWest Economic Region area, for Kelowna–Lake Country for the important question. I just for the most part, we are quagga mussel–free, invasive mus- want to let the member know that one of my favourite — sel–free, and we’d like to keep it that way. although I’ve been told not to say my favourite — employees [5:45 p.m.] of the conservation ofcer service is Kilo the mussel-snifng Over the years, we’ve seen an investment in doing that. In dog, who does a great job and is an important part of our December 2012, the province amended the controlled alien mussel defence program. species regulation act to further restrict non-native species For a number of years, as a member of the Select Standing so no invasive zebra or quagga mussels, alive or dead, would Committee on Finance and Government Services, we toured be allowed to be transported on boats or related equipment the province, as the member knows the committee does. into British Columbia. We also saw, since 2012, that the I heard many presentations on the impact of mussels as province has provided the Invasive Species Council of Brit- an invasive species, what’s happened in other jurisdictions, ish Columbia with over $2 million for the “Clean, drain, dry” what could happen in British Columbia and how concerned program. communities were. In 2015, another $1.3 million was committed by the Ten, at the last Union of B.C. Municipalities convention, province and B.C. Hydro, initiating the B.C. mussel defence as minister, I met with representatives from a number of program and boosting early detection and rapid response. communities who, again, expressed the concern, the threat, In July of 2015, the Columbia Basin Trust, in collaboration and made some very valuable suggestions about what meas- with Columbia Power and FortisBC, contributed another ures we could take in cooperation with them as partners to $360,000 to the program. In 2015, we saw a pilot program stifen defences. Tose are all important. of six roving decontamination units and 12 trained mussel I agree with the member and everyone who’s presented to inspectors, expanding the program to “Clean, drain, dry” me that this is a very signifcant threat to British Columbia, and outreach programs. and we never want to have to deal with the outcome of zebra In March 2016, we saw the invasive mussel defence pro- and quagga mussels having invaded British Columbia. Te gram announced for $2 million and expanded the stations impacts, I’m told, economically, could easily exceed $1 bil- along our borders with fve inspection stations located along lion. Tat’s why it’s important to ensure that we have funding the B.C.-Alberta border and three on the B.C.–United States to maintain programs. border. An expanded program included 33 trained mussel For the frst time, in this budget, we have identifed inspectors and an increase of 21 crew members from the $1 million as entrenched base funding for mussel defence 2015 pilot program. programs. Tat is not all the money that will be committed Lastly, in March 2017, a year ago this month, new funding to it, but that is a change in this budget. supported two new inspection stations at Yahk and Midway, We have, every year, an annual efectiveness review to bringing the total number to ten stations — nine stations ensure that we’re using the money and the resources in operating from dawn to dusk, extended from the then ten the most efective way possible. It’s important to do that. hours per day, and one station operating 24 hours a day at As the member knows, simply adding and adding without Golden, near the Alberta border, which is the busiest border. evaluating the efectiveness of what you’re doing may Funding for additional auxiliary conservation ofcers mean that we’re misplacing resources that could be spent more than doubled from 33 conservation ofcers to 68 better elsewhere. ofcers. Also, there was the incorporation of the frst mul- [5:55 p.m.] tipurpose mussel-snifng dog. I was actually there for that We work with the province of Alberta, the states of Wash- announcement. I had a great photo with the dog. ington, Montana and Idaho as well as the Canadian Border Tat’s where we’re at today. Tat’s been a year. We still Services to coordinate border inspections and exchange of don’t have mussels in British Columbia — invasive mussels, information, and that’s a critical part of this. zebra and quagga mussels. Tey have the tendency of Finally, I just want to assure the member and all the mem- impacting agricultural drainage ditches, irrigation and bers opposite that I’m clear that if we actually get a report B.C. Hydro, of course, with all of their pipes and dams. of mussels entering the province that I believe requires addi- Waterways are potentially impacted. One of the big ones in tional funding to address the threat immediately, I will cer- my riding is tourism. It would be catastrophic to have our tainly go to the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board to tourists coming to British Columbia and having to step on get prompt action. Te economic risk, the fnancial risk, of mussels instead of sand at the beaches. not taking action is so huge that it just makes no sense not My question is quite simple. Given all of this investment to respond. But I believe that we will be maintaining and that we’ve seen over the years, do the minister and the gov- enhancing our response and our ability to guard against this ernment have plans to continue the investment and make it invasive species as a result of this year’s budget. permanent, if it’s not permanent in the budget, and actually expand our defence against the zebra and quagga mussels? N. Letnick: Tank you to the minister for the frst answer. [5:50 p.m.] I just want to clarify, and I think the minister might have Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3531

done that in his last statement. But just to be sure…. We will, later this spring, release an intentions paper with We have 68 conservation ofcers, as of March 30, 2017, respect to the Organic Matter Recycling Regulation that will that are defending our borders; nine stations operating dawn enable us to address a number of matters, including regulat- to dusk; two new inspection stations; funding for a multi- ing odour, and we intend to have new authorities in the reg- purpose dog. While I do appreciate that the $1 million is ulation to help us address odour directly. now part of his annual budget for fghting the zebra and Finally, with respect to the member’s point about…. I quagga mussels, are we going to be able to, in the next fscal don’t know the details of the legal cases, but what I can say year, at least maintain the level of defence that we had last is there is legislation brought by my government currently year and potentially improve that with the funds that the before the House to address the misuse of legal action that minister has allocated in the budget? Or are we looking at inhibits public participation. We take the right of citizens to reducing our defences based on what we had before? participate and have their voices heard in public and in oth- er processes, on a range of issues, very seriously. If the con- Hon. G. Heyman: I want to assure the member that we stituents of the member, assuming the legislation passes the are maintaining and enhancing our defences and our House and becomes law, believe that the lawsuits in question response. But I do want to ofer an example of what can come or other lawsuits ft the defnitions in the legislation, then from an efectiveness review. that is its purpose. We reviewed the length of time we kept some of the sta- tions open, and one example was that we had a station that T. Shypitka: Tank you to the minister for afording me was remaining open when snow was on the ground, when some time here today. I appreciate it. boats were not entering. We decided to not keep that open I just want to start with a couple of questions, just a couple when snow was on the ground, and that allows us to redirect of broad ones — questions that you probably won’t need those resources to strengthen response elsewhere. your staf to answer, just a couple of things that you feel strongly about. J. Tegart: It’s probably not going to be a surprise, my ques- As the minister knows, a growing economy is very tion. I’ve been approached from a number of concerned cit- important. It funds social programming, hospitals, schools, izens from the Lytton area regarding the composting facility all those kinds of things, and we have a growing population. at Botanie Valley. Tey indicate concerns regarding odour, To keep up with the burden that that growing population and it afects their daily lives. puts on our infrastructure and our social programming, we Tis facility has made an application to expand its capa- need a strong economy. city. While there is a public notifcation process included in However, there’s always a trade-of. We have to fnd a bal- the permitting process, I’ve been told that many people with- ance between the economy and the environment, and this in the area are unwilling to participate because of possible is where the minister comes in. Can the minister just give litigation by the proponent. How can community members me his thoughts on how he feels about how we balance the participate in a meaningful way when they’re concerned that environment and the economy? they’re going to be sued? [6:05 p.m.] [6:00 p.m.] Hon. G. Heyman: I think the best way to answer the [S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.] member’s question is to just give a specifc example. Te example I’d like to ofer is that I met with the mayor of Cran- Hon. G. Heyman: In answer to the member, ministry and brook and the chief administrative ofcer at UBCM — more other representatives have been working with local residents recently, a couple of weeks ago — to talk about some indus- and the Lytton First Nation to try to fnd a positive resol- trial development that they wish to encourage in Cranbrook. ution to this. Tere have been numerous visits by ministry In particular, they were concerned at the requirements to staf to the composting facility in response to the complaints remediate a brownfeld site in the event that it was going about odour. Te most recent inspection was March 2017, to be sold or redeveloped. Teir concern was that this was in response to complaints. But the facility was found to be going to happen incrementally and if it would be possible to in compliance, at that point, with their odour management address the specifc areas of that entire site that were to be plan and the applicable legislation. developed as they were dealing with development proposals Te last amendment to the Organic Matter Recycling Reg- so as to be able to get things of the ground and moving. ulation was June 2016 to require large composting facilities Ministry staf are working with them to achieve that end to have a permit. Te company in question is arguing, cur- and to ensure that we address the environmental and rently, whether they need a permit before the Environmental remediation issues that we’re required by statute to amend Appeal Board, so I am going to be cautious about what I say and that we want to amend. I’m sure citizens in Cranbrook about this. What I can say is we will work with Revolution want to implement — not amend — but also to do it in a organics to ensure the facility remains in compliance with way that fosters both the remediation and healthy industrial the regulation. development in the area. 3532 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018

T. Shypitka: Tank you to the minister for those conver- First Nations, so there are benefts, while at the same time sations. I know the mayor and council and our CAO, Dav- addressing issues of environmental concern or rights and id Kim, were more than happy to have those conversations. title interests that nations have. All of this, I think, contrib- Hopefully, we can look forward to some opportunities down utes to the kind of certainty that allows long-term planning. the road. I’ve already talked about our environmental assessment Once again, we compete every day in our society. We process, one of the goals of which is to supply clear con- compete to attract the best doctors, the best teachers and lots ditions and a clear pathway to success in which both pro- of things within our economy and our society as a whole. ponents and the public have confdence. Would the minister agree that being not only competitive Our work on climate, in many respects, will also create but actually a top competitor is one big way of driving the more certainty by making it clear to industry where we’re economy? going, diferent measures that we have to utilize to get there, and involving them — as we have in signifcant numbers on Hon. G. Heyman: Tank you to the member for the ques- our Climate Solutions and Clean Growth Advisory Coun- tion. Of course competitiveness is important, and that’s…. cil — so they can help us identify both opportunities as well I want to talk a little bit about the environmental assess- as potential negative impacts on their business plan or their ment review that we’ve currently initiated in British competitiveness, so we can address that. Columbia. One of the important features of this review is We’re proposing a number of measures to do that. For to fnd a way to have both an efective and an efcient pro- instance, with respect to the climate tax, we are, as far as I cess. To do that, we think that if we design a process that know, the only jurisdiction in Canada that has not only giv- promotes partnership with First Nations and that promotes en a clear signal about where the price is going and how social licence through transparency and public participation it will be staged but provided a mechanism for industry to and that has a clear set of parameters that provide industrial get rebates that can be used and will be used to result in proponents with a clear idea of what the conditions are and improvements to carbon emissions and emission-intensive what a pathway to success is, we can get through the process industries, which can be benchmarked against the highest more quickly and avoid lengthy delays through litigation or standards elsewhere in the world. To the degree that industry public discord. approaches those particular standards, the greater the rebate. Tat’s an important feature of the environmental assess- [6:15 p.m.] ment review. It’s not only to protect the environment but to encourage prosperous and sustainable economic develop- T. Shypitka: My question is going to be more based ment regionally in B.C. around the costs to produce, not so much the commodity [6:10 p.m.] price. Te commodity price is one thing, and that’s always In the member’s own riding, let me give another example. foating. Tat’s one the uncertainty things in the mining We work cooperatively with Teck Resources in a number of industry and the natural resource industry. We just don’t ways to help Teck both meet conditions and remain com- know what that commodity price will be. So industry is petitive. It’s a collaborative, not a confrontational, relation- always struggling with fnding new ways of trying to reduce ship. In fact, one of the vice-presidents of Teck Resources — their costs to produce. and I’m very grateful to her for this — accepted an invitation Because commodity prices are so important, would the to be co-chair of our Climate Solutions and Clean Growth minister also agree that the cost to produce is equally as Advisory Council. important?

T. Shypitka: Tank you for the answer, Minister. Hon. G. Heyman: Of course, production costs are a Acknowledging that competitiveness is an important part factor. Te member asked the question and phrased it in of driving the economy, would the minister also agree that terms of equally important. I’m not sure I can say that, but it’s in a commodity-based industry, among other things, pricing certainly important. Tat’s precisely why our plan…. We’ve and what you sell your product for is an important part of worked with industry representatives from mining, from being competitive? cement, from forestry and other important sectors in British Columbia with respect to an escalating to work Hon. G. Heyman: Of course, commodity prices and costs out…. We’re continuing to work out a formula to enable are important. Commodity prices, of course, go up and them to recoup that cost as they reduce emissions, which, of down, and that afects industry. But we’re working hard to course, is the whole point of carbon pricing. provide more certainty to industry through a variety of measures. T. Shypitka: In my new role in shadow cabinet — my crit- I think for people to have certainty on the land base, ic role is Energy and Mines — this is all really important to one of the most critical things that we can do is work with me. I know there’s some overlap between Environment and First Nations — encourage proponents, many of whom have Energy and Mines. Te minister spoke of the EA process, taken the lead on this, to form economic partnerships with and that’s part of that overlap. Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3533

Can the minister tell us or tell myself what discussions I’ve met with representatives of the oil and gas industry. around competitiveness and the carbon tax are taking place I’ve met with representatives of the mining industry, both with Energy, Mines — that overlap? What discussions have Mining Association and the Association for Mineral Explor- been made? ation, and people have been appreciative of the work that we have done with them, that we are doing with them. My Hon. G. Heyman: I think, as the member knows, the deputy minister is going to Alberta to meet with represent- announcement in the budget signalled that we were working atives of CAPP. She is meeting again shortly with represen- out a mechanism for emissions-intensive industries for a tatives of the mining industry. We’ve had a very productive rebate of the carbon tax increments that will begin. relationship with the cement industry. We are engaging with industry, with diferent sectors, par- We are working with industry to ensure they remain com- ticularly the mining sector, on this, and I would say those petitive but also to ensure they can plan around the need conversations are very productive. Also, as we were working to factor in carbon pricing as well as reduce their emissions up the formula — which has yet to be fnalized but the con- and, by doing so, become attractive and competitive. I think cepts of it — there was full discussion with the Ministry the Business Council of British Columbia has a deep interest of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources as it was being in this. I was invited to a luncheon where I spoke to a room developed and before it was included in the budget. of about 70 or 80 people, I think it was, who wanted to hear our views, our plans. We talked about it. I answered ques- T. Shypitka: I’ve been talking to industry quite a bit, going tions. I think it was a productive exchange. I also got some around the table on quite a few of the diferent proponents in very good ideas from that exchange, and I continue to meet the industry. Te thing that keeps coming up time and time with industry. again is carbon pricing. Tat’s one of the biggest concerns [6:25 p.m.] that the industry is facing. I think also, if you talk to people in the mining industry, [6:20 p.m.] they’re aware of the synergies between the tech sector, fnd- How does the minister see B.C. staying competitive for ing new technologies that can help them reduce emissions. proponents who are looking to invest, especially now, given MineSense is one example. I think Teck and other mining the rise in the corporate tax, the new employers health tax companies are very eager to be at the forefront. and the rise in carbon tax? How does the minister see us A number of them actually see the possibility of a low-car- staying competitive with these new implementations? bon branding that could, if I need to use an analogy, perhaps open up the same kind of markets that Forest Stewardship Hon. G. Heyman: I’d answer the member by saying that certifcation provided for many of our wood products. one of the complaints I’ve heard for many months from a number of industrial sectors was that they know that carbon M. de Jong: I hadn’t planned to reinject myself in the pro- pricing is an important part of addressing climate change. ceedings, but I do think the point is important enough to Tey know that reducing emissions is an important part of warrant re-engagement. I’m mindful…. having a sustainable business model going forward. I think the experience in British Columbia in the frst Interjections. number of years, when the carbon tax rose gradually to $30 a tonne, was that we remained competitive. We had economic M. de Jong: I hadn’t been aware that my participation growth. We reduced emissions. warranted gales of laughter from certain members of the What I heard from people was frustration that they could executive council, but I’m pleased that she derives some not hear from the provincial government when and how pleasure from my being here. much the carbon tax would increase and what, if any, meas- Years ago a senior ofcial within the U.S. Department of ures would be taken to protect competitiveness. Tis was State named John Foster Dulles, who never sufered for lack in the context that the federal government had clearly of self-confdence…. Tey asked him one time if he had ever announced that provinces would raise the carbon tax to $50 been wrong in his life. He said: “Yes. Once I said something, a tonne, or the federal government would impose the tax, and I thought I’d been wrong. It turned out I’d been right all although leaving the tax money within the provinces. along, and I was wrong to have thought that I was wrong.” What we did was to clearly outline when the tax would It is in that context — the minister went to great pains to increase and by how much it would increase and then began take issue with a statement I made characterizing his and his discussions with industrial sectors about how to work with government’s approach to the broader issue of the pipeline them to lower their emissions. As a result of lowering their — that I waited for the transcript record of what the min- emissions, benchmarking against the lowest carbon intensity ister said. In responding to my summary, he said: “Tere’s within their sectors in the world, they could reduce the one thing I think that’s important for me to correct. Neither incremental carbon tax above $30 a tonne from some meas- I, the Premier nor any member of our government has said ure of rebate all the way down to full rebate. Tose discus- that we would use every means available to delay, to deny the sions have been going very well. pipeline.” I didn’t challenge the minister at the time because 3534 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018

I wasn’t in possession of direct evidence to challenge him, available to defend B.C.’s interests in the face of the expan- although I was fairly certain I had seen authoritative state- sion of the Kinder Morgan pipeline and the threat of a sev- ments from the government. enfold increase in tanker trafc on our coast.” Te frst statement I’ll put to the minister that seems to contradict what he said to me a few minutes ago — I know M. de Jong: To the minister, who again has made the dis- he wouldn’t want the record to be incorrect — derives from tinction, he can very quickly end this exchange, then, simply a document. It is the platform document for the party that by confrming for the committee that the provisions of the he ran under, at page 62, where it says: “Te Kinder Morgan confdence and supply agreement, and specifcally the provi- pipeline is not in B.C.’s interest…. We will use every tool in sions that I’ve read, are no longer government policy and, in our toolbox to stop the project from going ahead.” Does the fact, apparently were never government policy. He can end minister confrm having run on the basis of that statement this exchange by confrming that it is not the government’s and having sought ofce on the basis of that statement? policy to “immediately employ every tool available to the new government to stop the expansion of the Kinder Mor- Hon. G. Heyman: I was responding to…. I’m not even gan pipeline.” going to bother to paw through my little notes here, but I was [6:35 p.m.] responding to a statement the member for Abbotsford West attributed to our government. Te statement that the mem- Hon. G. Heyman: I’ll repeat again: the document, to ber read out was not a statement made when we were gov- which the member for Abbotsford West refers, was signed ernment. As the member himself has pointed out, it was in by me and other people before we were members of gov- our platform. ernment, before my party formed government. It is a doc- Government, as the member knows, brings a responsibil- ument that was created and signed before this government ity in terms of addressing things that are clearly within our took ofce, and as such, it is, I believe, clearly outside the jurisdiction. Also, being in government gives one access to scope of discussions and spending estimates of this ministry. a lot of information and knowledge that helps guide, as it should, the statements and the actions of every member of M. de Jong: Well, it’s not a trick question. To the minister, the executive council. When I gave the answer to the mem- who has acknowledged again, a moment ago, that at one ber in spending estimates today, it was based on what he had time this was the intention: I am simply asking that he con- claimed we had said as government. I stand by the answer I frm for the committee that today it is not the policy of gave him at the time. him and the government that he serves in to immediately [6:30 p.m.] employ every tool available to the new government to stop the expansion of the Kinder Morgan pipeline. M. de Jong: Let’s, then, go to a second document. If there is a birth of the government document, it is the agreement Hon. G. Heyman: I’ve answered the question. I’ve read signed by the Premier, the head of the executive council. Te my mandate letter. Tat is the policy of our government. I confdence and supply agreement between the B.C. Green believe questions with respect to a document that was signed caucus and the members…. Here’s what that says, at page 5: before we were government are just simply not in order for “Immediately employ every tool available to the new govern- these spending estimates. ment to stop the expansion of the Kinder Morgan pipeline.” Tat’s not just any document. It is on that basis that the M. de Jong: Tat is an extraordinary statement. I get the minister holds his position in the executive council. It is a discomfort to have said one thing, to have promised one purposeful statement that, I would suggest, is entirely con- thing, and to now be saying something diferent. But surely, sistent with what I characterized to the committee as the in considering the spending estimates of the minister on policy of the government. It exists in the document by which issues as important and central to, clearly, the government the government itself exists. Is the minister saying that the and the people of the province as a whole, it is entirely legit- provisions of the confdence and supply agreement, as con- imate for the minister to stand and indicate whether there tained at page 5, paragraph C, are no longer valid? has been a shif, which apparently there has been. Te minister doesn’t want to say it. Te minister doesn’t Hon. G. Heyman: As the member knows — again, I’ll want to admit it. Yet for people who believe that the gov- repeat my previous answer — that document was signed ernment would govern on the basis of the document that before we were government. In fact, the member, at the time, actually gave them the ability to govern, the minister is was a member of the government of the day, which was not saying: “No. No. Tat was then. Tis is now.” I don’t know our government. We did not become government till some- when the next secretariat meeting is, but I think his part- time afer that. I was not sworn in as a member of executive ners in the Green Party are going to be very interested to council until July 18. hear what the minister has to say. “We no longer… Tis is But I can read, very clearly, to the member what my man- irrelevant.” It’s so irrelevant that he doesn’t think anyone date letter says, with respect. It says: “Employ every tool should ask him about it. Wednesday, March 14, 2018 British Columbia Debates 3535

I guess that’s equally applicable for other parts of the Te Chair: I’d just remind members and the minister to agreement. I think my colleagues will be interested in that. keep the focus on ministry estimates very particularly. We’ll start to meander through the document and fnd out Tank you. which parts of it are government policy now and which aren’t. Look, this is not…. Te minister, to be fair, has been P. Milobar: Tis, I feel, is very much in line with the generous in allowing me and my colleagues…. spending of the $179 million that we are talking about today Te minister said: “No one has ever said that we’ll use and yesterday and looks like continuing on tomorrow. every tool, that we will use every means, to delay or deny the I can appreciate the minister is putting forth a proposition pipeline.” Clearly he has. His defence today, with respect to that he was speaking as government. Tat may be, if he was his party’s platform, is: “Well, that was just a platform. Tat on the stand in a court of law, 100 percent accurate. In the was that meaningless document upon which we appealed to court of public opinion, however, which all of us in polit- British Columbians for their support. I can’t believe someone ics tend to live and die by, I would suggest that most people would try to hold us to account for the document that we would view the confdence and supply agreement…. presented to British Columbians.” It was interesting that the minister referenced confdence Okay. All right. Te agreement that gives the minister and and supply votes, because the agreement is actually a confd- his colleagues the right to sit as government, in a minor- ence and supply agreement, which, actually…. Without the ity government, that says, “Immediately employ every tool support of the other signatories to that agreement, the min- available to the new government to stop the expansion of the ister would not have the ability to expend $179 million of Kinder Morgan pipeline,” is at odds with what the minister is British Columbia taxpayers’ funds and would not have had saying now. Te minister is an able enough parliamentarian the opportunity to have even been sworn in. — the minister is — to stand up, and he’ll know that I have I think in the broader court of public opinion, most limited time to pursue this, and say, “Tat’s my answer” and people would want to know the very clear answer. I’m not “Too bad.” worried about the partners on signatories to the confdence [6:40 p.m.] and supply agreement. Tat’s for the secretariat to work out. Isn’t that interesting? On a point as fundamental as this, Tat’s why the taxpayers are paying $1 million for that ofce: the minister would refuse to acknowledge that what he and to work those types of issues out. But I think the public his colleagues said in order to become government is now deserves an answer as to the status of the confdence and fundamentally diferent than what they’re saying when they supply agreement, which is the direct document enabling are government. this minister to try to expend 179 million of British In any event, I’m obliged to the minister and members of Columbian tax dollars, as to whether or not that clause in the committee for the opportunity to…. I’m sticking by John the agreement is no longer relevant and the statement in his Foster Dulles and my view that as it turns out, I was wrong mandate letter is the stand-alone statement moving forward. to have thought that I was wrong, because I was, at this point If so, has the confdence and supply agreement — which at least, right all along. is a public document, I believe; it was released publicly, in fact — been amended, then, to refect that so people under- Hon. G. Heyman: I commented earlier that I have spent stand the rules of the confdence and supply agreement. It’s some considerable amount of time answering questions and the only thing giving every minister of this Crown right now answering questions as members opposite attempted to the spending authority on any of these budget estimates — attribute statements to me or put words in my mouth. Te the ability to spend that money. member for Abbotsford West, despite the fact that he read a quote from me earlier, then characterized my words as say- Te Chair: I would remind members that, again, these ing: “We never said.” Te quote was clearly about what we ministry estimates are for the Ministry of Environment and said as government. Climate Change Strategy, and they are to do with the admin- Again, I would say to the member: if the member wishes istrative actions of the ministry. to quote me, quote me accurately, because I am very precise [6:45 p.m.] in what I’ve said and what I’ve answered, and I’ve answered I would hope that members could draw their questions the questions that were put to me as they were put to me. specifcally to the ministry, as opposed to other items outside Te member is also wrong. I’d be happy to take the oppor- of the ministry. tunity to point out to the member another way in which the member is wrong. What allows myself and other members Hon. G. Heyman: Well, I’ll give a quick answer to the of executive council to be government is the invitation of the question. And then, noting the hour, as soon as somebody Lieutenant-Governor to the Premier of the province to form gives me the right piece of paper, I’ll make the appropriate a government. Every time we sit in the Legislature and win a motion. vote on supply or confdence, that is what gives us the right In answer to the question from the member for Kam- to government, as I’m sure the member knows, as an able loops–North Tompson, my mandate letter is my mandate parliamentarian. letter. Tat’s the mandate I’ve been given by the Premier. 3536 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 14, 2018

Te confdence and supply agreement was an agreement Noting the hour, I move that the committee rise, report signed between members of the caucus of the Tird Party, progress and ask leave to sit again. the Green Party, and my party. But it is an agreement that is discussed in terms of how it is to be implemented and Motion approved. what it means in light of a range of advice and knowledge we gain about responsibilities and authority, on a regular basis, Te committee rose at 6:47 p.m. between the Premier and the Leader of the Tird Party, as well as through a consultation committee. Hansard Reporting Services

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