Fifh Session, 41st Parliament

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD)

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY, SECTION A

Virtual Meeting Tursday, July 16, 2020 Morning Meeting Issue No. 9

Presiding Ofcers:

RAJ CHOUHAN, DEPUTY SPEAKER

SPENCER CHANDRA HERBERT, DEPUTY CHAIR, COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

ISSN 2563-3511 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Janet Austin, OBC

Fifth Session, 41st Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Training...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Attorney General...... Hon. , QC Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of State for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens’ Services...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ...... Hon. Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy...... Hon. Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ...... Hon. Minister of Health ...... Hon. Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Minister of Jobs, Economic Development and Competitiveness...... Hon. Minister of State for Trade...... Hon. Minister of Labour ...... Hon. Minister of Mental Health and Addictions...... Hon. Minister of Municipal Afairs and Housing...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Arts and Culture...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Ofcial Opposition...... , QC Leader of the Tird Party ...... Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Simon Gibson Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel...... Seunghee Suzie Seo Clerk Assistant, Parliamentary Services...... Artour Sogomonian Clerk Assistant, Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ...... Susan Sourial Senior Research Analyst...... Jennifer Arril Senior Research Analyst...... Karan Riarh Acting Sergeant-at-Arms...... Greg Nelson ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission...... Simon Gibson Bains, Hon. Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford South...... Hon. Darryl Plecas Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Abbotsford West...... Michael de Jong, QC Beare, Hon. Lisa (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Boundary-Similkameen...... Linda Larson Begg, Garry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Guildford –Deer Lake...... Hon. Anne Kang Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal)...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Katrina Chen Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Burnaby North ...... Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal)...... Surrey South Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... –West End ...... Chen, Hon. Katrina (NDP)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Chilliwack ...... John Martin Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack-Kent ...... Laurie Troness Chow, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fraserview Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Joan Isaacs Coleman, Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Langley East Coquitlam-Maillardville ...... Hon. Selina Robinson Conroy, Hon. Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Courtenay-Comox...... Ronna-Rae Leonard Darcy, Hon. Judy (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley ...... Davies, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Delta North...... de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West ...... Dean, Mitzi (NDP)...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Esquimalt-Metchosin ...... D’Eith, Bob (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola ...... Dix, Hon. Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway –North Tompson ...... Donaldson, Hon. Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Tompson...... Eby, Hon. David, QC (NDP)...... Vancouver–Point Grey –Lake Country ...... Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission ...... Steve Tomson Farnworth, Hon. Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam ...... Fleming, Hon. Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay East...... Foster, Eric (BC Liberal)...... Vernon-Monashee Kootenay West...... Hon. Katrine Conroy Fraser, Hon. Scott (NDP) ...... Mid Island–Pacifc Rim Langford–Juan de Fuca ...... Hon. John Horgan Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) ...... Cowichan Valley Langley ...... Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Langley East...... Glumac, Rick (NDP)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Maple Ridge–Mission...... Bob D’Eith Heyman, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Hon. Lisa Beare Horgan, Hon. John (NDP) ...... Langford–Juan de Fuca Mid Island–Pacifc Rim...... Hon. Scott Fraser Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Isaacs, Joan (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... James, Hon. Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Nechako Lakes...... Johal, Jas (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Queensborough Nelson-Creston ...... Hon. Michelle Mungall Kahlon, Ravi (NDP)...... Delta North New Westminster...... Hon. Judy Darcy Kang, Hon. Anne (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake North Coast ...... Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal)...... Shuswap North Island...... Hon. Claire Trevena Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Lee, Michael (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Tornthwaite Leonard, Ronna-Rae (NDP) ...... Courtenay-Comox Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Dr. Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Parksville-Qualicum...... Ma, Bowinn (NDP)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Peace River North ...... Malcolmson, Sheila (NDP) ...... Nanaimo Peace River South ...... Mark, Hon. Melanie (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Penticton ...... Martin, John (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack Port Coquitlam...... Hon. Mike Farnworth Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–North Tompson Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Mungall, Hon. Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Mackenzie...... Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Prince George–Valemount ...... Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)...... Saanich North and the Islands Richmond North Centre...... Paton, Ian (BC Liberal)...... Delta South Richmond-Queensborough...... Plecas, Hon. Darryl (Ind.)...... Abbotsford South Richmond South Centre ...... Polak, Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Richmond-Steveston ...... Popham, Hon. Lana (NDP)...... Saanich North and the Islands ...... Adam Olsen Ralston, Hon. Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich South ...... Hon. Lana Popham Redies, Tracy (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Shuswap...... Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond South Centre Skeena...... Rice, Jennifer (NDP)...... North Coast Stikine...... Hon. Doug Donaldson Robinson, Hon. Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Marvin Hunt Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal)...... Skeena Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Routledge, Janet (NDP)...... Burnaby North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Guildford...... Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Newton...... Hon. Harry Bains Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Surrey-Panorama ...... Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey South ...... Simpson, Hon. Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Whalley ...... Hon. Bruce Ralston Sims, Jinny (NDP)...... Surrey-Panorama Surrey–White Rock ...... Tracy Redies Singh, Rachna (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. George Heyman Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna West Vancouver–False Creek...... Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal)...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fraserview...... Hon. George Chow Stone, Todd (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–South Tompson Vancouver-Hastings ...... Hon. Shane Simpson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Kensington...... Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kingsway...... Hon. Adrian Dix Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Langara...... Michael Lee Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Hon. Melanie Mark Tomson, Steve (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Point Grey ...... Hon. David Eby, QC Tornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver-Quilchena...... Andrew Wilkinson, QC Troness, Laurie (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack-Kent Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Trevena, Hon. Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vernon-Monashee ...... Eric Foster Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond North Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Hon. Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake...... Hon. Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano...... Yap, John (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky......

Party Standings: BC Liberal 42; NDP 41; Independent 2; BC Green Party 2

CONTENTS

Tursday, July 16, 2020 Morning Meeting Page

Committee of Supply

Proceedings in Section A ...... 155 Estimates: Ministry of Citizens’ Services (continued) S. Tomson Hon. A. Kang S. Sullivan B. Stewart Estimates: Ministry of Agriculture Hon. L. Popham I. Paton

155

THURSDAY, JULY 16, 2020 Hon. A. Kang: Tank you so much for this question. Te Ministry of Citizens’ Services’ capital budget for Te committee met at 9:35 a.m. 2020-2021 is $350.266 million, which is a net decrease of 16 percent, or $66.974 million, compared to the 2019-2020 [R. Leonard in the chair.] budget. Tis decrease is largely caused by reduced cash fow requirements due to the stage of multi-year major Committee of Supply projects. Te projects include the Capital Park building No. 2, Abbotsford courthouse complex, government work- Proceedings in Section A stations refresh and leading workplace strategies. [9:45 a.m.] ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF Also, the decreases are partially ofset by capital in- CITIZENS’ SERVICES creases to fund additional facility infrastructure for gov- (continued) ernment, including construction on the Nanaimo Cor- rectional Centre, renovations to support segregation and On Vote 20: ministry operations, $551,650,000 accommodation in correctional centres, facility improve- (continued). ments for the Ministry of Social Development and Poverty Reduction services delivery ofces, information manage- Te Chair: Good morning, everyone. I think we are ment and information technology — sorry, this is for the going to try to begin now, ofcially. maintenance and rehabilitation — and, as well, the energy- I want to recognize that I am participating today from smart program. the homeland of the Lək̓ ʷəŋin̓ əŋ-speaking people, today known as the Songhees and Esquimalt Nations. We extend S. Tomson: Tank you for that response. our appreciation to them for the opportunity to undertake Perhaps the best way to deal with this, rather than get the work before us on this land. into further follow-up and questions on this, is…. We’ll We are meeting today to continue consideration of the submit the questions in writing to get some more specifc estimates of the Ministry of Citizens’ Services. answers and details around what makes up the compon- ents — particularly, as I said, around the enterprise ser- S. Tomson: Good morning, Minister. Good morning vices component of it. I think that is what the minister was to all the staf that are supporting the minister. referring to on the workstation refresh side of things. We I appreciate the opportunity to continue the questions can follow that up with a specifc request in writing. here. Just to advise the minister, I’ll start of this morning A couple of questions on the privacy side of things. with a couple of questions around the budget and then a Te minister will be aware…. One of the key areas of pri- few questions to fnish up the discussion and some of the vacy protection is with respect to health data and health questions we had around the privacy side of the ministry records. I don’t think anybody will argue. Tat’s a compon- responsibilities. ent of personal information that is very, very valuable and About ten to ten or fve to ten, MLA Sullivan, Vancou- important to protect. ver–False Creek, will have a question, and we’ll turn the We’ve seen, over the last couple of years, a number of foor over to him for a question or two. Ten — it should incidents and issues around that. Tere was an audit done be around ten o’clock — we’ll be turning the question- in 2016 by the Privacy Commissioner around video sur- ing primarily over to the MLA for Kelowna West, my col- veillance and privacy compliance in medical clinics. Ten league Ben Stewart, around the FOI component and side this was followed up in September 2019 with another one of the ministry. around a compliance review of medical clinics. One of Tanks again to the minister. I appreciate the responses the components of the commissioner’s report on that was: to the questions last week and look forward to being able “Te troubling reality, however, is that privacy issues occur to continue. regularly within the medical feld.” So fagging an area of Te frst question is on the capital side of the ministry. concern and of importance. Could the minister explain the fairly signifcant reductions Can the minister outline what steps government is tak- in the capital expenses, both in terms of the real property ing to address the concerns raised by the report, particu- side, a reduction from $251 million down to $186 million, larly the 2019 report from the Ofce of the Privacy Com- and under the enterprise services, $51 million down to missioner? $37 million? Particularly on the enterprise services, with [9:50 a.m.] increasing data requirements, increasing cybersecurity threats, increasing need for robustness in our systems…. Hon. A. Kang: Yes, I do agree with the member for I’m really interested in what the reduction on the enter- Kelowna-Mission on the importance of privacy with prise services component of the capital costs is. health information. Te audit that the member is referring [9:40 a.m.] to dealt with private clinics. 156 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020

Let me tell you about our role in protecting privacy. S. Sullivan: As relates to the archives, which I know Government completes and reviews over 1,000 privacy are technically under culture and museums…. My ques- impact assessments each year in order to be assured that tion relates to legislation like the provincial Information all government initiatives operate in compliance with pri- Management Act — basically arising from the decision vacy law. Government wards of over 300 million unau- to keep the archives closed till 2021. I know that was thorized access attempts to the government network daily. recently changed. Apparently, they will be opening In instances where information is mishandled or inadvert- much sooner than that. ently breached, government relies on a robust and con- It relates to the issue of the provincial archivist. Tat sistent process to ensure that immediate action is taken position was ended at that point. When we had a provin- and potential harms are mitigated and prevention meas- cial archivist, we had an advocate for the archives. It was ures are put in place. always so important to have someone dedicated to good Mandatory training of all public service employees and recordkeeping but also dedicated to the love of history. additional training ofered for those that work with sensit- Next year is the 150th anniversary of B.C. joining the ive information or that are in privacy and security special- Confederation. What better way to remind ourselves of ist roles such as the privacy ofcers and information secur- what this means than to strengthen the B.C. Archives with ity ofcers…. Tese roles ensure that privacy and security a provincial archivist? are well understood to be everyone’s responsibility. Because of this issue, we did learn how important the archives are and to whom. We’ve realized so many people S. Tomson: To the minister: thank you for that over- are patrons of the archives, who are legal professionals that view. are engaged in the pursuit of justice; civil servants pur- One of the very, I guess, signifcant high-profle suing the public good; landowners seeking afrmation of breaches was the breach with respect to health data, and boundaries, etc.; scholars and educators who are discov- that was the breach with respect to LifeLabs currently ering stories; flm-makers and cultural institutions; engin- being investigated by the Privacy Commissioner. We know eers; issues of environmental remediation; tourists, etc. that there has been a report done and an investigation Te archives are such an important part of our com- done and that there are some determinations. Currently munity. Tey are the keeper of our provincial narratives. the report is not available for review. I just wanted to ask the minister: given the importance A quick question. Can the minister advise when the of the archives, will she consider reinstating the provin- ministry…? I think this may have predated the minister’s cial archivist? appointment, but can the minister advise when the min- [10:05 a.m.] ister, ministry, deputy minister was advised of the breach initially, and by whom? Hon. A. Kang: I want to say welcome to the member for [9:55 a.m.] Vancouver–False Creek to today’s estimates. I agree with the member about the importance of B.C. Hon. A. Kang: On October 30, 2019, LifeLabs had Archives. In B.C., the role of the provincial archivist is notifed the Minister of Health, and on the same day the shared with the Royal B.C. Museum and the B.C. Ministry Minister of Health notifed our investigations ofce in of Citizens’ Services, and we work very collaboratively Citizens’ Services. together on this particular function. Te ministry has a dedicated team of archivists, and we take this responsibil- S. Tomson: Can the minister advise us whether she ity very seriously. Due to the current impact of the COV- has received a copy of the Privacy Commissioner report, ID-19 pandemic, the archives are closed. We monitor this and what, from her perspective, the status of the report on an ongoing basis. is? Has the minister started to take initial steps within the So yes, I do agree with the member that this is a very ministry to respond to the recommendations and the fnd- important function. ings of the report? [10:00 a.m.] B. Stewart: Minister, thanks very much. I want to move to FOI. I know that this is a fle that has Hon. A. Kang: Te answer is no. We have not received a constant amount of consternation. Can you give us an the report. It is an open investigation. update in terms of the on-time response for FOI requests As for other actions that the government is taking, it in terms of the percentage as to meeting the guidelines that is not my practice to comment on open investigations. are set out in FOIPPA? However, this is…. Te lead ministry is the Ministry of [10:10 a.m.] Health, so they will be the lead on this particular fle. Hon. A. Kang: I’m very proud to report government’s S. Tomson: Now I’d like to turn the question over to on-time rate was 80 percent for many years, with consider- my colleague MLA Sullivan from Vancouver–False Creek. able efort. Tis raised to 89 percent in 2018-19 and 83 per- Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 157 cent in 2019-2020. Te province saw a 41 percent increase tions this request type several times. In the last three years, in request volume over the last three fscal years, with over we have seen the biggest increase in this applicant type. In 13,000 requests received in 2019-2020 alone at an all-time fscal ’18-19 and ’19-20, a political party submitted more high. than 10,700 requests. To give you an order of the mag- Tese requests continue to grow in number, size and nitude of these requests, it is approximately 68 percent of complexity. We are receiving the highest number of gener- all general requests at an approximate cost of $32 million al requests ever, with one requester responsible for 72 per- to the process. cent of the over 8,100 general requests received in the fsc- Tis report, I would like to note, was written by an inde- al year for 2019 and 2020. pendent third party.

B. Stewart: Well, thank you for that information, Min- B. Stewart: I certainly know that in the past…. You ister. know, it’s not any diferent in terms of who’s in the ofcial I want to go to this process about…. Tere was a report opposition. Questions need to be asked. Technology done in the spring of 2019 by Deloitte, and I want to talk changes rapidly and is changing. And unfortunately, the about the cost drivers that are mentioned in that report. I complexity of requests does increase that. wonder if the minister would comment or could confrm On page 6 of that report, the FOI processes across “gov- that six of the eight cost drivers identifed by Deloitte are ernment ministries are highly variable.” Would the minis- attributable to government internal processes. ter agree with this comment in the executive summary? [10:30 a.m. - 10:35 a.m.] Hon. A. Kang: Te facts of the report are accurate. Hon. A. Kang: To the frst part of the question, I would B. Stewart: Tank you, Minister. have to respectfully disagree. It is incorrect. During this I want to go to page 10. Te context of the review government, we have seen a signifcant increase in the focuses on only one of the eight cost drivers — noted spe- number and complexity from political parties, as indicated cifcally, applicant request types. Can the minister list for by the Deloitte report. this House the applicant types and the fees that are applied I do agree with the member and acknowledge that the to based on the applicant type? facts in the report…. Te reality is that the ministry [10:15 a.m.] resources diferently and uses diferent technologies to help manage information. However, our staf work con- Hon. A. Kang: Tank you so much to the member for stantly to improve information management practices and that question. ensure as much consistency as possible across govern- Te fees are not charged by applicant, but they’re ment. We have a community of practice. We’ve developed charged by the efort — for example, the size and the guidelines to ensure a cross-government approach in our scope of the particular request. In terms of fees, fees are practices and do that consistently. not charged for personal requests. So personal requests are free, and only 1 to 2 percent of FOI requests result in a fee. B. Stewart: Well, Minister, I know we would like to get If the member would like a detailed breakdown, we could the cost of this down. certainly provide that for you. In terms of this report, it’s my understanding that you were briefed on the Deloitte report about recommenda- B. Stewart: Okay. You mentioned that the fees are for tions to make FOIs work better. Tere are ten recommend- efort. I do have the schedule of maximum fees, but I just ations, I believe. wanted to clarify the applicant types. Can you just go back I wanted to ask you about what necessitated a need for and tell us: besides personal, what are the other applicant guidelines to be updated. With that, can you also explain types that you categorize them into? an example of the diference between non-topical and top- [10:20 a.m.] ical requests provided in the training guide sent across government? And what is the process for preparing elec- Hon. A. Kang: Te request types include media, per- tronic records afer September of 2019, when these sonal or individual, business group, political party, interest guidelines were put in place? groups, law frm, researcher and other public bodies. [10:40 a.m.]

B. Stewart: Maybe I could just…. On page 10 of the Hon. A. Kang: I’ll answer this question in two parts. Deloitte report, Minister, it mentions “political party” With respect to change, there is no change in practice since three times. Can you just explain why? September 2019. Further to the previous question, this is [10:25 a.m.] a good example of the provisions of guidelines to rein- force consistent practice. We always look to continuously Hon. A. Kang: In response, page 10 of the report men- 158 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020 improve, so this isn’t a change but, rather, an enforcement everyone; government should update its open informa- of good practice. tion and open data policy to include guidance and tools In terms of the second part of the question, some to help ministries identify and establish categories of examples of non-topical requests versus topical requests. records for routine release. A non-topical request is one that asks for all emails for I think the other thing that’s most important in this the entire month. So there’s no topic there. For the topical conclusion is…. Tis investigation found that while some requests — on particular requests or policies, for example, public bodies are complying with section 71, others must child care policy or housing policy. So just refecting on my take action now to comply with their legal obligations. previous experience as a teacher, being able to continually I think that probably the key in this particular report refect on the process and good practices is something that is it’s looking at how the costs can be driven down by we continue to do, similarly, in Citizens’ Services. the bodies that are required, under FOI or FOIPPA, to be able to do that. B. Stewart: I just had some technical difculties there. I’m wondering if the minister can tell us: which of the I am hard-wired in, and I missed some of the minister’s expanded categories for proactive disclosure have there response. I’ll accept that my colleague who is co-critic been since forming government? What are those categor- has heard it, and we’re going to move to the last part in ies? If we could receive that frst. this section. [10:55 a.m.] We just want to…. I guess, in terms of this recommend- ation, is it…? Te recommendation to attempt to narrow Hon. A. Kang: We agree with the importance, that pro- and eliminate fees has been removed. Is this applied to all active disclosures are very important. A reminder to the applicants? Are they are evenly treated? member that FOIPPA covers 2,900 organizations. It’s not [10:45 a.m.] just core government. Currently there are eight proactive disclosure directives. Hon. A. Kang: All applicants are treated the same. In 2016, the frst eight ministerial directives were issued. Tese directives require ministries to disclose specifc cat- B. Stewart: I want to move on to…. Just in terms of egories for information without an FOI request. In 2018, another OIPC report, an adjudicator came out in Septem- two of these directives were repealed and replaced with ber 24 of ’19 and essentially stated that they were not con- amended versions. vinced that the opposition requests were an abuse of the Te eight categories of records are as follows: ministers’ right of access under FIPPA. travel expenses, ministers’ and deputy ministers’ calen- I just want to clarify. What is the “political party applic- dars, summaries of information about directly awarded ant,” and what is the “opposition applicant”? Are they the contracts, summaries of open and closed FOI requests, same or diferent? records released in response to FOI requests, summary [10:50 a.m.] of information about contracts with values over $10,000 Canadian and summaries of information about alternative Hon. A. Kang: We track status as political party. We service delivery contracts. do not track the actual party name. It could be one of the As well, in response to issues about more directives, as many political parties that reside in B.C. part of this corporate proactive disclosure initiative, the OCIO continues to track the FOI requests received by gov- B. Stewart: I appreciate that. I do know that there are ernment to identify trends and establish new categories for quite a few registered in British Columbia. records for disclosure under section 17.1. Te OCIO also I want to move on to proactive disclosure. I know that continues to work with ministries to identify future cat- this is something…. I’m sure that within government, egories of records for disclosure under section 71.1 and is more proactive disclosure makes it less onerous on FOI to actively monitoring developments in other jurisdictions. have to do all this work. I want to go to a report by the Information and Privacy B. Stewart: I just want to be clear that I know some of Commissioner released on June 11, 2020. Privacy Com- those categories that you just listed of there were things missioner Michael McEvoy states: “Proactive disclosure that…. When we were in government, we introduced min- is more than just a helpful suggestion or best practice. isters’ travel, calendars and expenses. It is a legal obligation under FIPPA. Public bodies can Anyways, my question really is: if there are new ones, help themselves and the public by proactively disclosing will you agree to share that information with us so that we frequently requested records.” at least have an idea of where we can cut down requests Te report has three recommendations for all public and help in terms of trying to make this an easier process? bodies in British Columbia: all public bodies should Secondly, I want to go back to a question that you establish additional categories of records; categories of answered with the many political parties. I asked you the records should be published and easily accessible to question about what is a political party applicant and what Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 159 is the opposition applicant. Are they the same or diferent? Te Chair: Tank you, Minister. And thank you to all What I really want to ask you is: is the opposition con- the members. sidered to be a political party, or is it a diferent category? Seeing no further questions, I’ll now call the vote.

Hon. A. Kang: Yes, we will share that information about Vote 20: ministry operations, $551,650,000 — proactive disclosures with you. In response to the second approved. question, the opposition is a political party. [11:00 a.m.] Te Chair: Tank you, Members. Now I will call a short recess of ten minutes while we B. Stewart: I know time is tight. It always seems like a prepare for the Minister of Agriculture. lot of time and a lot of questions. But I want to just thank the minister and her staf for what they’ve done. Te committee recessed from 11:03 a.m. to 11:14 a.m. One area where we do want to send in some written requests on, that we’ve had quite a bit of correspondence [R. Leonard in the chair.] on, is Service B.C. ofces during the efects of COVID-19 and the challenges for both the ofces as well as the people, ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE the citizens, of British Columbia that are actively having difculty and some misunderstanding about the prepara- On Vote 13: ministry operations, $77,261,000. tions and rules around fair access to that information and [11:15 a.m.] a number of other written questions. I think at this point I’d just like to turn it over to my col- Te Chair: Minister of Agriculture, do you have any league from Kelowna-Mission, Steve Tomson. He has the opening remarks? fnal word. Hon. L. Popham: Tank you, Madam Chair. I do. S. Tomson: On behalf of my colleague and other col- I’m happy to be joining all of you. It’s nice to see my crit- leagues who have participated in this process, I just want ic, MLA Paton. We don’t get to see each other very ofen to thank the minister and her staf who supported her in these days. the process for all the work and the questions. As we said It’s nice to see your face, Ian. in our opening comments, this is a very, very important I’d like to introduce my staf that are joining me today. ministry that touches all of our citizens in British Colum- Tis is a very unique way of doing estimates, but I think bia — an important role. We recognize that, and we look that we have been all working hard to fnd a way to do it forward to continuing to work with the minister and her smoothly. With me today, in my ofce, is my deputy min- team as we go forward. ister, Tom Ethier. I have my assistant deputy minister Arif As my colleague mentioned, we will follow up with Lalani and my assistant deputy minister Jennifer McGuire. some written questions and some other specifc questions. I have my chief fnancial ofcer, Brian Fraser. And I have Te minister has been very responsive to those kinds of the CEO of the Agricultural Land Commission, Kim questions in the past, and we appreciate that. Grout. Again, just on behalf of all of us, thank you very much, I also have a whole herd of Agriculture staf that are and we look forward to continuing to work with you. joining me via teleconference, and I’dlike to mention them as well. It takes a lot of team efort to prepare for estimates Te Chair: Tank you. Seeing no further questions, I and get through the day. I appreciate everybody’s hard ask the minister if they would like to make any closing work. We have Graham Knox, Martha Anslow, Shelley remarks before I call the vote. Canitz, Lonny Steward, Gavin Last, Mark Raymond, Wes Shoemaker, Rotimi Famodile, Kirsten Pedersen, Ursula Hon. A. Kang: Yes. Tank you so much, Madam Chair. Viney, Brian Cotton and David Travia. Tat’s the team that My staf are in and out of this room, but all of us are I have to support me today. very…. We appreciate the questions from our critics. Tey I’d like to say, just briefy…. I think we only have about have been wonderful critics. I thank them for their kind six hours. So I won’t give too much of an introduction. words. As well, I want to thank all the members opposite Tis has been a very difcult year, which we’ve all been for participating in estimates. Tis has been my frst one. experiencing, due to the pandemic. Tere have been some Very enjoyable. Te questions that came forward really silver linings in ways that our sector has changed the way give us a sense of how well we work together as govern- they’re doing business. ment and our critics. We’ve seen some extraordinary numbers coming out of I want to thank everyone on behalf of my ministry. last year’s fnancials. So I think, given the setback we’ve seen because of COVID-19, there is some hope that we’re on the right track. I feel strongly that agriculture, fsh and 160 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020 processing are part of the way that we can become more thing until people stop and think: “What if there’s a posit- resilient as a province. I look forward to continuing the ive testing in our processing plants for fruit, for vegetables, work that we’re doing. for poultry, for beef.” We saw that happen, and suddenly Tank you very much. Happy to be here today. there was panic in the streets. Tere were empty grocery store shelves. Te Chair: Now I’d like to ask if the member for Delta Te system of processing in the beef industry certainly South would like to make some opening remarks as well. got backed up because of closures and shutdowns of pro- cessing plants, not only here in B.C., with poultry, but also I. Paton: Tank you to the Minister of Agriculture for a in the prairie provinces, with some of the big meat produc- lot of good work that goes on. Being the Agriculture critic, tion companies. It’s taught us a lot of things about being I’m sure we’ll have six hours of lots of critiques. I’ll put it prepared. It’s taught us a lot of things about the future and that way. being prepared with personal protective equipment in our I want to introduce myself. I also want to say that I’m processing plants. kind of…. My partner, the co–Agriculture critic — I’ll Anyways, I’m happy to get started. I thank you for this call her Linda — from Boundary-Similkameen, couldn’t time. I certainly wish we had 12 or 14 hours, but we’ll try be with me today. She has some family issues. Anyways, I’ll and get through this as best we can. be on my own here, along with some fellow MLAs later on I’m going to start of with a news release that came this afernoon. out on February 19, 2020. Tis is from a very respected I think I’ve said this a million times. I’ve been in agri- group, probably the most respected agricultural group in culture my whole life. A third generation Paton living on the province, the B.C. Ag Council, out of Abbotsford. our farm in Delta. My grandfather came to the farm about On February 19, 2020, they put out a news release. It 1937. I’m living in my grandfather’s house. I was actually says: “B.C. NDP Government Releases Disappointing born and raised on the farm that I’m still living on today, Budget for Agriculture.” 63 years later. So very involved in the dairy industry — I “Te B.C. Ministry of Agriculture received a $2.8 million re- was a dairy farmer for many years — and also in the farm duction in funding for 2020. Te reduction is primarily targeting auction business. travel and ofce expenses, a freeze on hiring and anticipated pro- gram slippage. Out of all the provinces, British Columbia continues I’ve been on so many committees, over the years, for to have the lowest government expenditures in agriculture as a per- agriculture, whether it’s the Delta Farmers Institute, the centage of agriculture GDP. board of directors for agriculture at the PNE, the B.C. “Grow B.C., Feed B.C., Buy B.C. will not increase in its third Youth in Agriculture board at the PNE, the Metro Vancou- year as originally planned, meaning new food hubs will be on hold…. ver and the Delta ag advisory committee. “‘As recent studies have reported, agriculture has signifcant po- As the minister has said, it has been a very trying year tential to grow ’s economy,’ says Stan Vander Waal, BCAC since the start of 2020. So many things, because of COV- president. ‘We believe this is also possible in B.C.; however, our ID-19, have afected agriculture in this province. We can province still invests less money into the agriculture sector, relative to its size, than any other province in Canada. We need to invest in start with things such as…. this sector if we want to realize the potential that it can bring.’” My history goes back to the auction business. So many My question to the minister. How can this government ranchers in this province depend on the bull sales and the possibly stand up and tell farmers, ranchers and processors auction sales that all take place in February and March that agriculture is a priority in our province? and April in this province. Tose had to be set aside or [11:25 a.m.] reworked to make it work, but it was very difcult. Farm equipment auctions have been put on hold or cancelled. Hon. L. Popham: Tank you for the question. It’s always Very disappointing for kids in agriculture and 4-H. All a pleasure to talk about how much of a priority agriculture the fairs and agricultural fairs have been cancelled, pretty is and the successes that we’ve seen with the supports that much, this summer. We’re still trying to fgure out how we we’ve put in place. can pull of the 4-H auction at the PNE, which we’ve done I just wanted to mention, before I address the member’s every year since the 1960s. Yeah, a lot of trying times. question specifcally, that the Ministry of Agriculture [11:20 a.m.] budget is more than $95.4 million for ’20-21, which is Labour shortages, of course, are a huge thing in the almost $14 million larger than it was under the previous province. Ten, with the COVID-19 outbreak, we saw government. I can say that the fscal adjustment was an some of the craziest things, such as the rationing of toilet untargeted budget reduction to each ministry for the years paper. I must say. 2021 through 2023. It was untargeted, and the strategy for Labour shortages, of course, are a huge thing in the managing the reduction was lef to ministries to modify province. Ten, with the COVID-19 outbreak, we saw their budget allocation, applying their knowledge of prior- some of the craziest things, such as rationing of toilet ities and stakeholder needs. paper. I must say, I’m probably not the only one, but my Tis is consistent with the direction that was provided prediction back then in February was we haven’t seen any- Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 161 in alignment with the government and ministry priorities. to farmers, listening to every part of the sector. We have We focused on protecting staf and the delivery of our core been checking in non-stop, and we’ve heard about the services with minimal disruption to our stakeholders. We challenges that they’ve faced, which included not just the also protected existing funding for Grow B.C., Feed B.C. challenges around COVID, but in general. and Buy B.C. and removed the planned expansion fun- Also, we’ve heard about some of the successes that ded in prior budgets. As a result, we primarily targeted people have seen. Te silver lining right now is that con- operational expenses such as travel, contract expenditures, sumers are very aware of the food system. I think that the information technology, ofce and business expenses, and focus that we’ve put on having a strong domestic supply other discretionary expenditures. and demand is going to allow us to continue making a plan We’ll continue to monitor and evaluate operational for resiliency. work during the fscal year and then adjust accordingly, I’m not quite sure where the critic is going. Maybe he depending on emerging issues and needs. I can say that could tell me again. If we have the highest budget that the the decisions that were made refect our strong fscal man- province has ever seen for Agriculture, how would that be agement as a government. I believe that was a responsible something negative? choice to make. I. Paton: I’ve got several questions related to the budget, I. Paton: Tank you to the minister for that answer, but but to answer the minister’s question briefy…. As years go I’m going to ask it one more time. by, everything tends to go up, including…. Budgets will go I’m going to frame it this way. Te minister says that up. Te cost of farming goes up. agriculture is certainly a priority in the province of British [11:35 a.m.] Columbia. But the frst three or four things that would pop Interestingly enough, the government put out quite a into my head if I were a newcomer in agriculture in B.C…. release just yesterday, I believe it was, to say that our sales I’d say there was virtually nothing mentioned in the throne are up $3.9 billion in British Columbia for agricultural speech about agriculture. Tat tells you something. Te products. But what they failed to say is that one of the budget has declined by $2.8 million this year. Agriculture biggest contributors to that increase is cannabis. I think is not even part of the B.C. economic recovery task force. most people know my position on cannabis on farmland Tat certainly tells you something. in British Columbia. A group was formed called Changes to Bill 52. Tere It goes on to say, in an article by Mr. Fletcher, that the are over 4,000 members of a Facebook site that are just so Agriculture Minister “credits the improved revenues to the adamantly upset about the direction of agriculture in Bill province’s work in ‘helping farmers farm and strengthen 52 and Bill 15 in this province. Tey came to the Legis- food security.’ But two-thirds of the revenue increase over lature as a protest back in May, with 38,000 names on a 2018 is from cannabis sales, which rose $300 million as petition. legal retail expanded.” Again, how do these four things add up to priority for Tere’s really no mention of the aquaculture industry, agriculture in B.C.? including salmon farming, which added to a huge part [11:30 a.m.] of this increase in cash receipts into the province. But what we don’t see is the talk of what it costs in increased Hon. L. Popham: I fnd the question that the critic has expenses to run farms in B.C. A farmer may see increased posed to be quite interesting. We have the highest budget revenue from cash sales, but under this government, we that Agriculture has ever seen in the history of British Col- have seen increases to carbon tax, to the EHT, to minim- umbia, and that’s to the credit of our government believing um wage, to farm equipment and farm building insurance that food security is an extremely high priority for us. It’s rates, electricity, heating fuel, machinery fuel, fertilizers, hard for me to understand the critic criticizing the highest pesticides, seed, veterinary care and business insurance. budget that Agriculture’s ever had, and much higher than We can see cash receipts going up, which looks good, it was under his government’s leadership. but the costs of production in this province are going I think we’ve seen some incredible support coming for- through the roof, with all of the added taxes and red tape ward for the sector. Agriculture is signifcant when it that are happening under this government. comes to the economic framework. I think COVID-19 has My question to the minister is: can you tell me what is put a focus on the need to continue the path that we’ve the single biggest hit to the Agriculture budget regarding been working on. Te critic says that we’ve decreased the COVID-19? budget, that we’re not listening to the thousands and thou- sands of stakeholders that there are in agriculture. Hon. L. Popham: I’m just going to briefy touch on I can tell the critic this. When the pandemic struck, some of the comments that the critic said, but I also need we began making calls and contacts through our ministry. to qualify his question, I think. We’ve made over 6,000 contacts over the last few months. B.C.’s farm cash receipts increased 13.3 percent, or $462 Tat’s listening to people who are in the business, listening million, which is bringing it to a record of $3.924 billion in 162 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 16, 2020

2019. Farmers’ total net income rose from $24 million to Hon. L. Popham: I’ve got four areas that I can talk to $66 million, which is a 174 percent increase. But the critic the critic about. We have domestic migrant agricultur- asked what the biggest hit to Agriculture has been due to al worker accommodation, this was $1.6 million; Agri- COVID-19, and I’m not quite sure what he meant by that, Recovery, which is $15 million; and animal care facilit- if he could just maybe restate his question. ies, over $6.5 million. We’re also looking at, at this point, almost $20 million for the temporary foreign workers I. Paton: Well, I’ll rephrase this to the minister. How quarantine process. has COVID-19 impacted government revenues within the scope of this ministry? I. Paton: Tank you to the minister for that answer. I guess to continue on about declining revenues, my Hon. L. Popham: I guess I’m still a little bit unclear on question to the minister is: how have the agricultural rev- the question. Te critic asked: what is the biggest impact enues declined since COVID shutdown? I’m thinking of on revenue to the ministry? Our ministry doesn’t have a bees, laboratory work in Abbotsford, permits, licences — lot of revenue. But if he means the impact to the entire sec- all the diferent things that would bring in revenue to the tor, I’d have to say, honestly, that I think it’s too soon to tell Ministry of Agriculture. what the impact is. [11:40 a.m.] Hon. L. Popham: Te ministry gets less than $1 million We do know that there have been some very big chal- in revenue annually. In fact, about $982 million this cur- lenges for the restaurant sector, which has impacted our rent fscal for the ministry. farmers. Tere has been an enormous impact on our sea- [11:50 a.m.] food sector because of the challenges around moving Sorry, $982,000. My deputy corrected me. I was way, products internationally. way up. It’s $982,000 for the ministry, about $530,000 for Tere are a lot of things that we will have to see, in the ALC fees. the longer term, how it turned out. We recognize that Around the fees collected at the lab, the Abbotsford lab there have been big challenges. On the positive side, we do did not stop at all through COVID. So there has been no know that there has been an increase in domestic sales for decrease in revenue there. farmers. We don’t have those numbers ofcially. We have Another area where there are fees is around meat applic- been hearing reports from farmers, for example, that sell ations, processing applications. We’ve seen a signifcant at farmers markets. increase since January 1 of our class E applications. We’ve We ofered a program to help farmers and seafood pro- already had 28 applications come through for class C. Last ducers and food processors get online with their products. year, in total, we had about 23. So we see signifcant more We ofered an e-commerce program. Very popular. It was activity there. Ten we’ve seen 11 class D applications actually subscribed to immediately, the frst release of fn- come in, in Alberni-Clayoquot since the changes were ances, and then the second time, again, very much sub- made there by our government. scribed to. We could probably add more to our budget around supporting e-commerce, and we’re looking at that. I. Paton: Tank you, Minister. My next question would Tese are new ways that farmers and fshers and food pro- be: how much of the $1.5 billion in recovery funding that’s cessors are able to move their products. lef is being requested by the Ministry of Agriculture, and COVID has posed many challenges, but we are looking for what purposes? at new ways of doing business. We hear the term “the new normal.” We’re not going to go backwards with this. We’ve Hon. L. Popham: Tank you to the critic for the ques- even heard reports from up in the Comox Valley. Someone tion. Tose discussions are ongoing. Of course, we will be who raises cattle has seen a threefold increase in their sales putting forward initiatives that we believe are priorities, online. Tere are defnitely bits of good news throughout but there is nothing to report out as of now. this very challenging time. I. Paton: Trough you, Madam Chair, nothing to report I. Paton: My next question would be: were any addi- yet on the recovery plan for moneys lef over for agricul- tional funds provided to the Ministry of Agriculture for ture in British Columbia. Is that correct, what I just heard? COVID-19, and how were these allocated within the departments? In other words…. So many things had to Hon. L. Popham: It’s an ongoing process, and we are be dealt with, whether it was hotels for migrant work- putting forward our priorities. ers, meals for migrant workers, travel costs, PPE to go to farming operations and processing plants. What were I. Paton: To the minister, what agriculture groups in the the additional funds provided to the ministry because of province of B.C. have come forward so far with priority COVID-19? requests for a portion of the $1.5 billion in recovery funds? [11:45 a.m.] Thursday, July 16, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 163

Hon. L. Popham: Because the critic asked that, I will say I. Paton: Certainly. Tank you, Madam Chair. that we won’t see a complete list until the end of August. Tis has been a very trying time — very disorganized I’d like to also remind the critic that this doesn’t pertain to — through this pandemic for almost everyone, including the budget estimates today. farmers, including agriculture, people trying to fgure out where things are going with changes to legislation. I. Paton: Now that the province is in defcit, how will My question to the minister…. A couple of your staf the ministerial holdbacks be impacted? were very well liked, Mr. Mack and Mr. Shoemaker. Why [11:55 a.m.] would there be a change of DMs and ADMs in the middle of this pandemic? Hon. L. Popham: We believe that that question is better directed to the Minister of Finance. Hon. L. Popham: I’ll note that that question is not rel- evant to estimates, but I will say that any HR issues are I. Paton: My question to the Minister of Agriculture. handled through the public service. Could you tell me why agriculture is not being represented Hon. Chair, I move that the committee rise, report res- on the Premier’s economic recovery task force? olution and completion of the estimates of the Ministry of Citizens’ Services and report progress on the estimates of Hon. L. Popham: Our ministry has been hard at work the Ministry of Agriculture. making sure that we’ve made contact with all of our stake- holders right across the province. All of that information Motion approved. is being fed into the economic recovery task force, so there is large representation from agriculture, fsh and food pro- Te Chair: Tank you, Members. Tis committee now cessing. stands adjourned.

Te Chair: Member, noting the hour, can this be your Te committee adjourned at 11:59 a.m. last question, please?

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