Vol. 794 Monday No. 213 26 November 2018

PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDEROFBUSINESS

Questions Universal Credit ...... 473 Shipbuilding: Appledore Shipyard...... 475 Verify: Digital Identity System ...... 477 Gender Pay Gap...... 480 Russia and Ukraine: Seizure of Naval Vessels Private Notice Question ...... 482 Stalking Protection Bill First Reading...... 485 Parking (Code of Practice) Bill First Reading...... 486 Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Order 2018 Motion to Approve ...... 486 Infrastructure Planning (Water Resources) (England) Order 2018 Motion to Approve ...... 486 Prisons (Interference with Wireless Telegraphy) Bill Order of Commitment Discharged...... 486 Voyeurism (Offences) (No. 2) Bill Committee...... 487 Leaving the European Union Statement...... 500 Kindertransport Commemoration Question for Short Debate...... 513 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2018-11-26

The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2018, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 473 Universal Credit [26 NOVEMBER 2018] Universal Credit 474

House of Lords the Minister for Family Support, Housing and Child Maintenance, Justin Tomlinson, are working hard with Monday 26 November 2018 stakeholders to see what improvements could be made.

2.30 pm Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab): My Lords, the Minister said that split payments are available on Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Worcester. request but, as my noble friend said, if somebody asks for a split payment, her abusive partner will know. Universal Credit How many of us would be willing to take the risk of Question further abuse? Can the Minister tell me why the Government think that they know better than survivors 2.37 pm of domestic abuse and the organisations working with Asked by Baroness Sherlock them, and continue to put the onus on the survivor and put her at greater risk? To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to split payments in Universal Credit. Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, it is important to stress that claimants can request a split payment during TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department a face-to-face meeting and a phone call could be made for Work and Pensions (Baroness Buscombe) (Con): away from the perpetrator of domestic abuse or online, Split payments are already available on request for via the journal. Research carried out for the department universal credit claimants. We have processes in place suggests that only 2% of married couples and 7% of to record complex needs for individual claimants and cohabiting couples keep their finances completely separate. have introduced a new IT function so that these claimants Indeed, a number of legacy payments have always are instantly visible to the staff helping them. We are been paid as one payment. also examining how claimants tell us about their complex needs, how we record those needs and how we can Baroness Couttie (Con): My Lords, many people extract data which can help us monitor and improve who have experienced domestic abuse would find it support. extremely traumatic to relate the details of what has happened to them. Does the DWP require details of Baroness Sherlock (Lab): I thank the Minister. To the abuse before they can receive split payments? mark White Ribbon Day yesterday, I want to ask specifically about the impact of universal credit split Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, that is a very helpful payments on people suffering domestic abuse. At present question— money for children is paid in tax credits to the main Noble Lords: Ha! carer once a fortnight, and that supporting low-paid work to the main earner once a fortnight. Universal Baroness Buscombe: Well, it is helpful because it is credit rolls up all those payments with housing, childcare constructive. No, we do not expect people to disclose and disability payments, and is paid once a month into the details of domestic abuse. Any individual can be the bank account of one member of a couple. There is accompanied by a third-party organisation to provide widespread concern that this may exacerbate economic expert support when discussing their situation with a abuse. Domestic abuse survivors can request a split work coach. Each case is unique and the work coach payment, but charities such as Women’sAid are concerned will therefore ensure that the process is claimant-centric, that simply asking for it can put them at risk because to best support the needs of the individual. We treat of course it triggers the evidence that they have done all personal information in confidence and do not so concerning the abusive partner. My noble friend disclose it to third parties without explicit consent, but Lady Lister raised this in a Question in July and we also ensure mandatory training for our work coaches presumably the Minister has been thinking about it. to give the support that people who are in a vulnerable But the latest statistics show that only 20 households situation require. have split the payments, even though 40% of awards are to couples. Can the Minister please tell the House Baroness Janke (LD): My Lords, what assurance what action the Government are going to take? can the Minister give that split payments will be part of the test and learn DWP pilot scheme to be introduced Baroness Buscombe: The Government support White early next year? Can she also give assurances that any Ribbon Day—the International Day for the Elimination results will be published before the managed migration of Violence against Women—and will be making a takes place in 2019? number of announcements over the 16 days of action, which I am sure all noble Lords will welcome. The Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, the noble Baroness Government are committed to doing everything we may know that during the test and learn phase, we will can to end domestic abuse. It is important to stress be working within a co-design phase for seven months that it is the responsibility of government across Whitehall on a number of projects with stakeholders from all to support victims of domestic abuse. The single payment parts of the welfare system to assist us in the kinds of of universal credit usually allows both people in the questions that we need to ask. But we are also going to household to make the money management choices look at how Scotland implements this. Scotland has that are best for them in considering how their decisions made its own decision, which it is entitled to make, to about work affect their household income. The reality go ahead and implement split payments. We want to is that I and my honourable friend in another place, learn from Scotland, too, about how this can be done, 475 Universal Credit [LORDS] Shipbuilding: Appledore Shipyard 476

[BARONESS BUSCOMBE] The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) what challenges there might be and how practical it (Con): My Lords, the Government were very disappointed will actually be when six benefits are being brought to learn of Babcock’s decision to cease operations at into one under UC. Appledore. While it is a commercial decision for Babcock, I recognise how concerning the news is for Appledore Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB): My Lords, if employees, their families and the wider community. we are to learn from Scotland, is it not time that we Appledore is not central to successful delivery of our decided how quickly we might learn from other countries? national shipbuilding strategy. However, more broadly, It seems to me that this will kick it into the long grass, we are committed to encouraging a more competitive rather than resolving the situation for split payments industry, driving innovation and growing the Royal in England. Could the Minister please comment? Navy fleet. Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, we should not do this in haste. The reality is that Scotland has proposed Lord West of Spithead (Lab): I thank the noble Earl split payments and is going to implement them. We for his Answer. I am glad he shows that feeling for would much rather watch what Scotland is doing—this Appledore because this is highly destructive of the is known there. Meanwhile my colleague in another whole of that community. Appledore shipyard has place, whom I have already referenced, is working with been amazingly competitive in producing survey ships various stakeholders on how we can improve support for the Navy, parts of the Type 45 and parts of the for those victims of domestic abuse through the welfare carrier, and it won the latest competition for four Irish system. OPVs. It is a very efficient and very capable yard. I find it extraordinary that a firm has to close it because Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab): My Lords, I it has problems on its balance sheet elsewhere in its currently chair a commission which is looking at services structure. However, that is not my question. and support for women who have experienced violence My question relates to the amount of work that is and abuse. Through that, I have met many of the available for shipbuilding in the United Kingdom, women whom other Members here have been trying to because other yards will go the same way unless there alert the Minister to. I am sure that the Minister has is a core, basic loading of building. The loading of every good intention, but I have to tell her that these building that we have at the moment is insufficient. We women really do feel that they cannot disclose what is are paying for fleet solid support ships to go elsewhere happening to the DWP and why they need separate out of the UK, but that is an opportunity to add to the payments. Even if they did, their partner would then loading, enabling us to keep key shipyard workers and be so angry that they would suffer. Will she therefore these key industries going. I am sure the Minister feels agree to meet people who are working on this to hear that that would be the way to go. I would be very of direct cases, which I do not want to put in front of interested to know the Government’s position on this. the whole House, so that she hears about the concern, Does he feel that those in Appledore ought to fight, fear and anxiety, and then the mental health problems fight, fight again, like those from Appledore and Bideford that come as a result? who fought with Sir Richard Grenville down in the Baroness Buscombe: I thank the noble Baroness for Azores some 427 years ago against huge numbers of her question. We take this extraordinarily seriously. I Spaniards? We must keep fighting to keep it open. have already met representatives of Women’s Aid and Refuge, but it is important, as the noble Baroness will Earl Howe: My Lords, the noble Lord asks a very appreciate, that split payments in universal credit cannot serious question about government spend on naval be the solution to what is ultimately a criminal act. shipbuilding. I do not think it is a fair charge if his Domestic abuse is still a huge problem in our society. implication was that the Government have not been The solution to it is complex and should be delivered supporting our yards at home. Babcock alone has had through the judicial system. If they feel it is appropriate, £1.7 billion-worth of business just in the last year. It anyone in a joint claim, including individuals suffering recently started work on a £360 million contract to be from domestic abuse, can request a split payment, but the technical authority and support partner for the I should add that we now have more and more work Navy’s new aircraft carriers. In general, we are seeing coaches in jobcentres who have not only been through in Scotland, for example, a £3.7 billion contract for the the mandatory training but are specialists in understanding first three Type 26s, and at Cammel Laird there has and detecting domestic abuse. We are learning as we been a £619 million support contract. Then there will are going on, and we are continually working hard to be the competition for the Type 31e frigate, which is improve the system, bearing in mind that as at August worth £1.25 billion. Those will be built in the UK. this year only 20 people had requested this. As regards the fleet solid support ships, there is no bias on the part of the Ministry of Defence. This is an Shipbuilding: Appledore Shipyard open competition and we encourage British shipyards Question to bid. 2.46 pm Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con): My Lords, is it not Asked by Lord West of Spithead true that the noble Lord, Lord West, was told, when To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their he ordered the aircraft carriers and there was no assessment of the importance of the Appledore money to pay for them, that they would have to be shipyard as part of the United Kingdom’s future paid for by reductions in the surface fleet, and that is shipbuilding strategy. what is happening now? 477 Shipbuilding: Appledore Shipyard[26 NOVEMBER 2018] Verify: Digital Identity System 478

Earl Howe: My Lords, I do not accept that. We are Lord Young of Cookham (Con): My Lords, over committed to maintaining a fleet of 19 frigates and 3 million people have used GOV.UKVerify to perform destroyers. That is what we have at the moment. The over 8 million secure transactions. My honourable Type 26 frigates will replace some of the Type 23s and friend the Minister for Implementation made a Written the Type 31s the rest of the Type 23s. I do not accept Ministerial Statement on GOV.UK Verify on 9 October. that the fleet is somehow dwindling because of the The Government have an immediate and growing aircraft carriers. need for a secure digital identity service.

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD): My Lords, I Lord Clement-Jones (LD): My Lords, this is a very cannot restrain myself from the observation that if the sorry tale. The Government Digital Service started Royal Navy had as many ships as we have Questions with high hopes for its flagship Verify digital identity about ships, we would be in a pretty good position system, aiming for 25 million users by 2020. Now, with altogether. The last time that this issue was discussed, constant changes in leadership, the imminent cutting the Minister told the House and myself that, of the entire project budget and the refusal by departments notwithstanding the worst-case deficit in the Ministry such as HMRC to adopt it, the Government are now, of Defence equipment budget of £14.8 billion, the after £130 million of investment, simply handing it MoD would still be able to balance the books. Will over to the private sector. Is it not extraordinary, when that include cancellation or creative accounting, as has the need for a trusted universal UK-wide secure identity happened in the past? system has never been higher, that the Government are abdicating all responsibility in that way? Where Earl Howe: Not at all, my Lords. We are committed does that leave Verify’s 2020 target? Is this not an to our capital programme. If there has been any admission of total failure? creative accounting in the past, we want to put that behind us because we want to be absolutely transparent Lord Young of Cookham: I would not describe the about what our spending plans consist of. With regard service in quite the terms that the noble Lord has just to shipbuilding, as I said in my initial Answer, part of used. Progress is being made towards the target of the trick will be to make the British shipbuilding 25 million users by 2020. It is not the case that HMRC industry more productive, innovative and competitive, is not using Verify. Noble Lords who want to can and that is what we are seeking to do through the upload their self-assessment tax return using Verify, strategy. and if they so wish they can check their income tax account using Verify. More and more government The Lord Bishop of Worcester: My Lords, having services are now subscribing to Verify; the MoD recently been vicar of the parish in which the Swan Hunter added an additional service, and some 18 services are shipyard was when that yard went into the hands of now available. It is not the case that we are abdicating the receivers a number of years ago, I am acutely the whole thing to the private sector. Verify, which is a conscious of the devastating effect that such closures government service, will continue to provide a digital have not just upon individuals but upon whole identity service to the public sector, and it is talking to communities. The Minister has acknowledged that. the NHS and to local government in order to continue Will he undertake, if the yard does go under, to to broaden the base. provide necessary assistance both to individuals and to the community, which will suffer terribly? Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op): My Lords, can the Minister tell the House clearly what went Earl Howe: The right reverend Prelate focuses on a wrong? very important issue. There is no doubt that the site is regarded as at the heart of the local community, with Lord Young of Cookham: I challenge the premise on generations of families employed there. Naturally, as a which the noble Lord based his question. Verify was result, local councils for one are very keen to find a launched in 2016 and, as I said in my initial reply, now solution. I can tell him that Babcock has offered all has 3 million subscribers who have completed 8 million affected employees other positions, including at transactions. I signed up to Verify over the weekend Devonport. It is planning to hold discussions with and, if noble Lords have not, I suggest that they make affected individuals about their long-term options, themselves familiar with this new and innovative service. and it has committed to being as flexible as possible in accommodating travel and relocation needs. Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): My Lords, is not the simple truth that, following pressure from the Liberal Democrats in the coalition, Labour’s national identity Verify: Digital Identity System card scheme, which would have dealt with this problem, Question was abolished? Is it not odd that it has finally dawned on the Government that identification is vital to protect 2.52 pm against entitlement fraud? It has taken them a long Asked by Lord Clement-Jones time to learn that lesson. Toask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of their plans for Lord Young of Cookham: Verify was started under Verify, the Government Digital Service’s digital the coalition Government—I think Nick Clegg was in identity system. charge of the Cabinet Office when it started—but 479 Verify: Digital Identity System [LORDS] Gender Pay Gap 480

[LORD YOUNG OF COOKHAM] Lord Young of Cookham: Noble Lords will have there is a difference between providing a secure online their own reaction to that suggestion, but the thought identity, which Verify does, and an ID card which you of going along to a vet to have something implanted in have to carry with you. The key difference between my neck is not something I find immediately attractive. Verify and an ID card system is that Verify is voluntary and the ID card was to be compulsory. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab): My Lords, I am tempted to ask the Minister why it took a Question Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, I declare from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for him to an interest, having worked in government with Nick sign up to Verify, but instead I shall ask him about Clegg on precisely that. I was very impressed by the his other revelation—that there is a Minister for Government Digital Service and frustrated by the Implementation. What are his or her—I do not know extent to which departments across Whitehall resisted whether it is a he or a she—other responsibilities? its moves to modernise government handling of data and abandon the separate legal frameworks under Lord Young of Cookham: His name is Oliver Dowden which departments manage and keep data. There was and he is a Minister in the Cabinet Office. Noble much discussion in the coalition Government about Lords will find his responsibilities set out in the list of introducing a new Bill to update those rules to cope ministerial responsibilities. with rapidly moving technology.It has not yet appeared. Do the Government still have plans to do so? Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, can the Minister Lord Young of Cookham: The noble Lord knows explain why he has the misfortune to be answering this much more about this than I do. It is the case that Question today, given that responsibility for digital HMRC has its own service, the Government Gateway. identity policy has transferred to DCMS? Since it developed that service, Verify has come along. Obviously one would like to migrate from Government Lord Young of Cookham: Well, it is a question that I Gateway to Verify and encourage other departments may have asked myself a few days ago as I find myself so to do. I am not wholly convinced that we need answering questions on a whole range of responsibilities legislation to do that—I will go back to my department that I never knew were mine. The answer is that in the light of what the noble Lord said—but we need although overall responsibility has been transferred to to win the hearts and minds of government departments DCMS, the Government Digital Service remains within and persuade them to make more services available on the Cabinet Office, for which I have responsibility as a Verify. That impetus is, I hope, gathering momentum. spokesman. Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab): My Lords, can the noble Lord explain what Verify will do to make Gender Pay Gap our borders safe after Brexit? Will he now review his Question position on compulsory and voluntary ID and agree that the only way for us to have safe borders is by a 3 pm compulsory form of recognition? Asked by Baroness Prosser Lord Young of Cookham: I am not convinced that To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans compulsory ID cards would stop the illegal entry into they have to require organisations to produce action this country of a whole range of people. The noble plans to respond to their gender pay gap reports. Lord will know that in 2010, legislation was passed to scrap the ID legislation introduced by the previous The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams Labour Government. We have no plans to reintroduce of Trafford) (Con): My Lords, I am delighted that over such legislation. 10,000 employers reported gender pay gap data in the first year, but reporting is just the first step. We believe Lord Watts (Lab): Can the Minister say how much that the transparency created by reporting will motivate has been paid in consultancy fees on this issue? Given employers to take action. However, to close the gap we that departments and the Government centrally keep need wider cultural change, which cannot be imposed no records of how much they are spending on consultancy, from above. That is why the Government are working is it not about time that we were more transparent? with employers to tackle the drivers of the gap, and Lord Young of Cookham: There is an issue of we have introduced a range of initiatives to support commercial confidentiality in publishing the amount that work. paid to the five identity providers, but if the noble Lord wants to know the cost of the Verify programme, Baroness Prosser (Lab): Well, sometimes I am a bit I should be more than happy to write to him and place speechless over all this. It goes on year in, year out, a copy in the Library. and nothing really happens. I welcome the initiative to publicise the gender pay gap, of course, and I welcome The Countess of Mar (CB): My Lords,we electronically the work that is being done to encourage more women tag all our animals—I speak as a former farmer. Why on to public boards. However, the pay gap is actually cannot we electronically tag humans? We could all have at its most pronounced among slightly older women microchips, and then we would know where we were. who have given up more productive or lucrative careers to have children, and who then cannot afford paid Noble Lords: Oh! childcare and so move into part-time employment. 481 Gender Pay Gap[26 NOVEMBER 2018] Russia - Ukraine: Seizure Naval Vessels 482

There are a number of tried and tested initiatives those figures by sector, and I hope that that will be which have proved very helpful to this cohort of where we get to at some point soon—but I think we women, and which have been run in the past through have made a great start. the Government Equalities Office: for example, women- only skills programme initiatives to break down full-time Baroness Afshar: My Lords, I beg the Minister’s jobs into part-time jobs. Do the Government have any pardon for interrupting her earlier in my misplaced intention of introducing any programmes to enable enthusiasm. The change of production from “just in women to work to their capacity and at the same time case”to “just in time”means that there is no continuous help them to contribute more to business and the process. It has been fragmented into home-based economy? production where people are employed “as and when”. This means that they cannot accumulate a background Baroness Williams of Trafford: I am grateful to the of paying regular contributions to entitle them to any noble Baroness for asking that follow-up question. I kind of benefits. Is the Minister thinking of a way to am slightly disappointed that she was speechless at my deal with the new way of production that now prevails? initial Answer—maybe she was speechless with joy. One of the things on which I was speaking to the Baroness Williams of Trafford: The noble Baroness Women’s Business Council this morning was precisely asks a very pertinent question. There can be a break in the cohort she talked about—older women who have national insurance contributions for people who work perhaps left work for certain reasons and then gone and then step out of work, or who work from home. A back later—and how it can help. The Women’s Business flexible workforce is important to the future economy, Council is focused very much on the cohort of women but it must not disbenefit people’s pension take when from 50 to 64 in particular, on what support it can they retire. give, and on what the Government can support in this endeavour. So we are doing things around the gender Baroness Gale (Lab): My Lords, it is nearly 50 years pay gap from which that cohort in particular should since the Equal Pay Act was passed and women still benefit. earn a lot less than men. The most recent statistics show that the gap is now 13.7%. Does the Minister Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD): My Lords, I hear agree that we should take much stronger action? The the Minister’s answer, but I think law can be a driver legislation is good as far as it goes, but women have of culture. Does she agree in principle with the been patient on this issue for an awfully long time and recommendationsof theCommonscommitteeonbusiness it ought to be strengthened. The pay gap audit, where that, as half of all employees are not included in the companies employing over 250 people have to produce gender pay gap reporting requirements, all companies plans, is very good. Will the Minister have another with 50 or more employees should be? I said when the look at this and see what can be done to strengthen it requirement came in that what you do not measure, and make progress a lot quicker than it is now? you cannot manage. Let us get SMEs measuring their pay gap so that they can at least start on the path to Baroness Williams of Trafford: To a certain extent I managing it. wholeheartedly agree with the noble Baroness. The Equal Pay Act was brought in in 1970 and strengthened Baroness Williams of Trafford: I agree to a certain through the Equality Act 2010, but we still hear stories extent with the noble Baroness. It would be interesting about huge disparities in pay between men and women to see some of the figures from SMEs. Over 300 have, who do pretty much the same job. The legislation has in fact, reported their gender pay gap even though recently been updated, and any employer who is not they have not had to do so. It is important to note that paying men and women who do the same or a similar the Government are not pushing against a closed door job equally is liable to court action. There is a very on this. Businesses want to do this and the success of strong regime in place for that. employers in future will be down to the diversity of their workforces. Russia and Ukraine: Seizure of Naval Vessels Baroness Afshar (CB): My Lords— Private Notice Question Baroness Williams of Trafford: As the noble Baroness 3.08 pm will know, McKinsey has estimated that bringing more diversity to the workplace—particularly women—will Asked by Lord Wallace of Saltaire increase the economy by over £150 billion by 2025. Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment what discussions they have had with the government of Russia regarding Baroness Jenkin of Kennington (Con): My Lords, their capture of three Ukrainian naval vessels in the what are the Government’s plans to monitor progress? waters off the Crimean Peninsula. In particular, do they have plans to include a sectoral analysis? Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private Baroness Williams of Trafford: In terms of monitoring notice. progress, businesses with over 250 employees will have to do this exercise every year. I am pleased that all the Baroness Goldie (Con): My Lords, Her Majesty’s businesses in scope actually reported their gender pay Government have not held bilateral discussions with gap. There is clearly scope to start to disaggregate the Russian Government on this issue. Emergency 483 Russia - Ukraine: Seizure Naval Vessels[LORDS] Russia - Ukraine: Seizure Naval Vessels 484

[BARONESS GOLDIE] Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): Does my noble meetings of the United Nations Security Council, friend agree that this is all part of a strategy? The NATO and the OSCE will today discuss Russia’s Russians will never leave Ukraine alone. This is all flagrant breach of the rules-based international system. part of a bigger plan to increase the reliance of western The United Kingdom position is clear—ships must be Europe, particularly Germany, on Russian gas, to allowed free passage in the Sea of Azov. We urge all undercut the Americans and to cut Ukraine out of the parties to act with restraint. transmission system. Does she accept that this is Russia’s strategic aim and that we should recognise it in both Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I am reassured our foreign policy and energy policy? that we are working through NATO and, I hope, through the European Union co-operative mechanisms Baroness Goldie: It is certainly indicative of a grave while we still have them for a few more months. Are we attitude to a sovereign country. There has been global confident that our major allies—the French, the Germans condemnation of the illegal annexation of Crimea, and the United States—hold as strong a position on and the response of the international community to this as we do? If the Russians succeed in converting this recent breach of international law is important. the Sea of Azov into an internal sea, that will have a The international community, in the form of the United devastating effect on the economy of a substantial Nations Security Council, the OSCE and NATO, is chunk of Ukraine because of the port of Mariupol. well placed with its member participants to consider an appropriate response to this unacceptable conduct. Baroness Goldie: Regrettably, these developments represent a step change in the creeping annexation by Lord West of Spithead (Lab): My Lords, the noble Russia of the Sea of Azov. Indeed, Russia’s use of Baroness will be aware that it has been stated that we force, including the use of firearms against Ukraine’s are sending a warship to the Black Sea but, as I vessels, marks a clear aggression. The actions are a understand it, it is in fact a survey ship. If things are breach of international law and of various multilateral hotting up in the Black Sea, to send a ship into harm’s and bilateral conventions, including the 2003 bilateral way that is not capable of looking after itself is not a agreement with Ukraine on freedom of navigation in clever idea. Should it be reviewed? Perhaps we should the Sea of Azov and the Kerch Strait. The United send a ship such as a 45, which is able to look after Kingdom and our allies have made clear our profound itself in these circumstances. disquiet at that action. Baroness Goldie: I am very reluctant to comment Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, I welcome on specific operational matters for reasons that your the noble Baroness’s commitment to continue to work Lordships will understand. The MoD response to with our EU partners, as the noble Lord suggests, such situations is carefully assessed and reviewed; any which is vital, as is suggesting that we have restraint— decision to deploy our ships would be made after only which has to be based also on the effective measures the most careful assessment of all the circumstances. that we are taking. Will she make representations to the Government of Ukraine to suggest that they avoid Lord Robathan (Con): My Lords, following from using this incident to introduce martial law or to my noble friend’s comment that this is a step change in cancel next year’s elections? Such a move would be a Russian aggression, does she not think that the Ministry backward step, certainly for democracy in Ukraine. of Defence should perhaps look more closely at what it spends our money on and whether it should spend Baroness Goldie: I understand that, as we speak, more on, for instance, cyber measures and, indeed, the Ukrainian parliament is considering a declaration conventional warfare, given what the Russians have of martial law, and it is entitled to consider its options. just done? Ukraine certainly has found itself the victim of conduct that invites global condemnation, and we must respect Baroness Goldie: With all the recent—by which I the role of its parliament to take whatever action it mean over the last few years—reviews of MoD and thinks fit by way of response. defence capacity and strategic assessment of what the future holds, I can reassure my noble friend that Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB): My Lords, does the significant investment has been made in our defence noble Baroness not agree that this act by the Russians capability. That includes very sophisticated work with is not, like all the other things they do in eastern our security and intelligence services. Ukraine, deniable in any way, because it is an act by the Russian navy? Also, is not the use of force to Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab): My Lords, does enforce a blockade in fact an act of war? the Minister agree that the Russians feel more able to do this while western Europe is preoccupied with Baroness Goldie: I hear the noble Lord’s definition; Brexit and while the United States is coping with it is certainly an act of aggression. It is a further Trump? Russia interfered with the referendum and his example of Russia’s ongoing violation of Ukraine’s election. Would it not make us more skilful and adept sovereignty and territorial integrity. The UK regards in reacting and responding appropriately to Russia if the annexation of Crimea as illegal, as was the we were to abandon the foolishness of Brexit? construction of the Kerch bridge earlier this year. We issued a Statement on 19 November calling on Russia Baroness Goldie: Wehave to deal with global situations to allow free passage through the Kerch Strait for as they arise. I happen to think that this issue probably merchant ships travelling to and from the Sea of Azov. has nothing whatever to do with Brexit. What the 485 Russia - Ukraine: Seizure Naval Vessels[26 NOVEMBER 2018] Prisons (Wireless Telegraphy) Bill 486 international community has to do is exactly what it is Parking (Code of Practice) Bill doing: in a responsible and swift fashion, at very First Reading senior levels of engagement at the United Nations, NATO and the OSCE, considering the best way to 3.19 pm respond to the situation. The Bill was brought from the Commons, read a first time and ordered to be printed. Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab): My Lords, does the Minister accept that calling on Russia to show restraint in such circumstances is a completely pointless exercise? Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) It will just provoke a lot of belly laughs in the Kremlin. Order 2018 The one thing the Russians understand is concrete Motion to Approve sanctions. Will the Government, jointly with our EU 3.19 pm allies, consider how the sanctions that they are already imposing on Russia as a result of its failure to observe Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford the Minsk agreement can be suitably enhanced on this That the draft Order laid before the House on occasion? 17 October be approved. Baroness Goldie: As the noble Lord will be aware, Considered in Grand Committee on 21 November the EU has recently strengthened sanctions related to Motion agreed. Crimea by listing individuals and entities who were responsible for the construction of the illegal Kerch Infrastructure Planning (Water Resources) bridge. We continue to work closely with all our international partners to ensure that sanctions remain (England) Order 2018 in place as long as Russia’s control of the peninsula Motion to Approve continues. 3.19 pm Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD): I support what Moved by Lord Gardiner of Kimble was said by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes: this is no That the draft Order laid before the House on accident of timing. The Kremlin does not take such 18 October be approved. actions unless there is a clear understanding of what the consequences might be. It is no secret that Mr Putin Considered in Grand Committee on 21 November hopes to destabilise NATO and undermine the European TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department Union. This action is clearly part of that concerted for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner plan. of Kimble) (Con): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. Baroness Goldie: The UK has made its response clear. I reaffirm that it is very important that we do not Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con): My Lords, I act exclusively and on our own in relation to such an do not wish to detain the House, but I could not be in incident, and that we act with the appropriate senior the Grand Committee on Wednesday and I have a partners in NATO, the United Nations and the OSCE. very simple question. I congratulate my noble friend That is the effective and appropriate way to respond to on bringing this order to the House, but my concern something like this. relates to the provisions of the Reservoirs Act 1971. We need more reservoirs and more water to be retained Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): My Lords,are territorial on land by farmers, landowners, golf clubs and caravan waters in the Azov Sea clearly delineated and accepted parks. Can he put my mind at rest that this provision by the powers involved in this struggle? will be entirely in keeping with, or even amend, the Reservoirs Act to make that possible? Baroness Goldie: My understanding is that, unlike the Black Sea which is regarded as an area of international Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, I understand waters, the Sea of Azov—being virtually landlocked that it is the Reservoirs Act 1975. This provision deals by two countries—has been the subject of bilateral with the Planning Act 2008 and, as I described in agreement between Russia and Ukraine. That was a Grand Committee, this is an entirely separate matter. 2003 agreement; it dealt with freedom of navigation in All matters relating to safety encompassed by these the Sea of Azov and the Kerch Strait. Those two major projects also come within the prism of the countries are perfectly entitled to make that bilateral Reservoirs Act 1975, so these are extensions of the agreement but one expects both sides to honour and Planning Act 2008. respect it, and not so blatantly to contravene and breach it as has been evident recently. Motion agreed. Prisons (Interference with Wireless Stalking Protection Bill Telegraphy) Bill First Reading Order of Commitment Discharged 3.19 pm 3.21 pm The Bill was brought from the Commons, read a first Moved by Baroness Pidding time and ordered to be printed. That the order of commitment be discharged. 487 Prisons (Wireless Telegraphy) Bill[LORDS] Voyeurism(Offences)(No.2)Bill 488

Baroness Pidding (Con): My Lords, I understand purpose of obtaining sexual gratification or for the that no amendments have been set down to this Bill purpose of invading the privacy of the victim, whether and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a or not by humiliating, alarming or distressing them. manuscript amendment or to speak in Committee. The amendment would not alter the structure of Unless, therefore, any noble Lord objects, I beg to the offence. It would retain the need for a mental move that the order of commitment be discharged. element—that is, proof of the defendant’s purpose. It would retain the imposition of notification requirements Motion agreed. only on those who commit the offence for reasons of sexual gratification, which the Government are rightly Voyeurism(Offences)(No.2)Bill concerned about. However, it would prevent defendants adding to the distress of their victims by running a Committee wholly unmeritorious defence which may, in some cases, result in them escaping justice. I beg to move. 3.22 pm Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB): My Lords, I have put Clause 1: Voyeurism: additional offences my name to this amendment and I also support the Bill. I say to the Minister that the amendment is Amendment 1 intended to be helpful. I have been reflecting on the possibility that this Moved by Lord Pannick might happen to me. From time to time, I wear very 1: Clause 1, page 2, line 8, before “humiliating” insert “invading wide skirts, and more than once, in going up and down the privacy of B, whether or not by” the stairs to the Tube, the skirt has come right up. I can just imagine a young man thinking it irresistible to Lord Pannick (CB): My Lords, Amendment 1 is in stick his iPhone under my skirt as it goes right up for a my name and that of the noble and learned Baroness, lark. He might then say that it was not intended and Lady Butler-Sloss. I apologise for not having been that he did not think he would humiliate me. Quite present at Second Reading. I was in Udaipur, India, simply, I would not be humiliated, alarmed or distressed. for the wedding of my son Joel to Dhara Shah, and I would be extremely angry. And if I got the chance, I very enjoyable it was. However, as the Minister knows, would put my leg exactly where you think I might. I have taken an interest in this Bill since before it Bear this example in mind. In my view, it is not arrived in this House. covered by the current wording of the clause because I strongly support the Bill. It will provide much-needed the action lacks intent and, much more importantly, criminal sanctions for offences that cause substantial was done to an elderly woman who then did not suffer distress to victims, but my concern is that, as drafted, any of the suggested reactions. As my noble friend it might fail some victims. The problem is that each of Lord Pannick said, there is a gap—a manhole—and the offences created by Clause 1—that is, operating victims such as myself would not be covered. equipment or recording an image beneath the clothing I am sure the Minister had no hand in drafting this, of another person—is dependent on proof by the but it is a well-meaning example of male paternalism. prosecution that the defendant has acted for a purpose Nice, decent elderly men think that this is how all mentioned in new Section 67A(3). There are two unlawful women would feel, but I am one who does not. For purposes: obtaining sexual gratification, and humiliating, that reason, I strongly support this amendment. alarming or distressing the victim. My concern is that it is absolutely inevitable that 3.30 pm some men—it will almost always be men—who are Lord Hope of Craighead (CB): My Lords, I too accused of this offence will say that they did the act of support the Bill. I have seen something happen to a voyeurism not for the purpose of sexual gratification man’s kilt that was almost exactly as described by the or for humiliating, alarming or distressing the victim, noble and learned Baroness and equally embarrassing. but for the purpose of “having a laugh”. Of course, there is nothing remotely funny about these offences With great respect to those who tabled the amendment, for the victim. I recognise that the prosecution will I am not quite sure that they have found a solution to invite the magistrate or the jury to reject any such the problem they have identified for a reason I shall try defence, but there is a real risk that the defence may to explain. New Section 67A has a number of subsections succeed in at least some cases, perhaps because the and, as I read it, subsection (1) describes the action of jury will be confused by the need for the prosecution the person and subsection (3) describes the purpose to prove one of the specified purposes. for which the action is being taken or resorted to. The trouble with “invading the privacy of B” is that I share the concern expressed by the noble Baroness, those words describe the action. The words in new Lady Burt of Solihull, at Second Reading. At col. 789 subsection (1)(a), of Hansard, she talked about defence barristers seeking for their clients “a legal loophole”. There is a potential “operates equipment beneath the clothing of another person”, loophole here; indeed, one so large that it would be is an example of invading the privacy of that person more appropriate to describe it as a manhole. My by operating something beneath their clothing. amendment is designed to deal with this by providing Therefore, I wonder whether the amendment is entirely that the defendant commits a criminal offence if the right. The purposes are set out in new subsection (3) and prosecution can prove that the defendant acted for the my problem is that the wording of the amendment 489 Voyeurism(Offences)(No.2)Bill[26 NOVEMBER 2018] Voyeurism(Offences)(No.2)Bill 490 describes acts rather than purposes. Weare in Committee would a recorder have any difficulty in directing a jury and it might be worth reflecting on the aim—which I to consider this, so that if somebody said in their quite understand is being properly addressed by the defence, “I was only doing it for a laugh”, they simply words suggested. would not be believed.

Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (CB): My Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD): My Lords, Lords, I, too, fully support the underlying objective of I agree with what was said by the noble Lord, Lord this legislation, and apologise for not having played a Pannick, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady part in any of the earlier processes. Butler-Sloss. I am not sure that invading privacy is not Reading these amendments today has given me just as much a purpose as an activity. I shall be brief in pause for thought along the same lines as my noble support of Amendments 2 and 3 in my name and in and learned friend Lord Hope of Craighead. My the name of my noble friend Lady Burt of Solihull. noble friend Lord Pannick describes this as a manhole I made it relatively clear at Second Reading that I or loophole in the legislation that can be got round. would have preferred the specified purposes provision However,the whole point, surely,of new subsection (2)(c) to be omitted altogether, and in that regard I go is to limit the application of this provision. You look further than the agnosticism of the noble and learned for a purpose and then you define the purpose in new Lord, Lord Brown, and the point made by the noble subsection (3). However, if you include within that any Lord, Lord Faulks. That would mean that an offence invasion of the privacy of B, frankly, you might as well would be committed by anyone taking upskirting images strike out the whole requirement for a purpose. Whether, without the consent of the victim, though I would add as my noble and learned friend Lord Hope said, this is a different proviso: so long as the action of taking or to be regarded as a purpose at all, if you do what is set recording the images was not accidental. This could out in new paragraphs (a) and (b), inevitably you are have been quite easily achieved in the legislation by the invading the privacy of B. Therefore that makes it use of a word such as “deliberately”, and would have otiose to have any reference to a purpose at all; it is constituted an acceptable required level of mens rea—or unlimited. guilty state of mind—to constitute the behaviour criminal. As for an unlimited provision, I am agnostic—or But my chief concern, and that of my noble friend hesitant—as to whether that is a good idea, but it is no Lady Burt and others, has been to ensure that no one good persuading yourself that you are consistently is permitted to avoid criminal liability by running the with a purpose and then accommodating the amendment. defence that he lacked the required purpose. The amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the Lord Faulks (Con): My Lords, I too apologise for noble and learned Baroness,Lady Butler-Sloss,is designed not having been here at Second Reading, but I have to achieve that end. had the opportunity of reading the short debate. I would add another problem that has not been In Section 67 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, covered. There is a concern that the specified purpose there is a mens rea, as it were, simply for the purposes in new Section 67A(3)(b)—that is “humiliating, alarming of obtaining sexual gratification. Unfortunately, one or distressing” the victim, would be entirely absent, has to pose the question of why anyone is doing this at not only in the case of the robust constitution professed all—I think it used to be assumed that it must be for by the noble and learned Lady, Lady Butler-Sloss, but some form of rather strange sexual gratification—and also in a case where the perpetrator intends to avoid this addition of “humiliating, alarming or distressing” detection by the victim by taking or recording the is added to cover the possibility that there might be images without the victim knowing. If the victim is some other motive. Those words are familiar and not to know of the behaviour, then she cannot be often interpreted in one context or another in the humiliated, alarmed or distressed by it. In such a case, criminal law, whereas I am unaware—I will be corrected the only remaining— if I am wrong—that the concept of invading privacy finds much resonance in the criminal law, although of course it is reflected in other aspects of our law, not Lord Faulks: I thank the noble Lord for giving way. least in Article 8 of the European convention. The distress may not be something the victim is aware of at the time it takes place, but were they to become The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, rightly said that we aware—which ex hypothesi they would in the case of a do not want anyone who should be capable of relying prosecution—surely then they would suffer humiliation on a defence to have one in circumstances where it and distress, having found out what had been done to would be unattractive if they did, and he cited a them. particular instance of someone having a laugh. He then gave the game away by saying it would be unfortunate if they could say this despite the distress that might be Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames: I do not accept caused to the individual who had been the victim of that, because in some cases these images would be this. Whose laugh are we talking about? Presumably published and a prosecution would follow without the we are talking about misjudged humour on the part of victim ever being traced. The victim may not know the the perpetrator, not the amusement of the victim of images are of her—there may be distinctive parts, this invasion. I take the point made by the noble and there may not—but there may be cases where distress learned Lord, Lord Brown, that if there is to be a can come either with the prosecution or later. In the purposes clause, it is sufficiently wide. I think a magistrate proposed new section as it stands, the prosecution has directing himself or herself with the addition of a to prove that the intention of the perpetrator was to clerk would have no difficulty in considering this; nor bring about that distress. That seems an unnecessary 491 Voyeurism(Offences)(No.2)Bill[LORDS] Voyeurism(Offences)(No.2)Bill 492

[LORD MARKS OF HENLEY-ON-THAMES] whatever the motivation of the perpetrator or perpetrators, complication and hurdle to erect in front of the if the person has not consented. I believe that it is prosecution so that it has to prove that purpose to worth spelling that out. These points deserve to be secure a conviction. made even if they do not make it into the Bill. There may well be cases in which the perpetrator can say that sexual gratification, whether for himself Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab): My Lords, once more or another person, was not his intention or purpose—the I rise in support of the Bill, and I know that it is example has been given of “having a laugh”. In rightly supported by Members on all sides of the Amendment 2, we have identified financial gain, where House. After a lot of thought and some discussion, these images are to be published to make money, as including with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I will another intention. In Amendment 3, we have identified stick to my Second Reading position that the Bill entertainment or amusement, which is another way of should pass through this House swiftly and completely saying “having a laugh”, as another. unamended. I have two reasons for sticking to that The noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, has argued position, the first pragmatic, but no worse for it, and that financial gain will be achieved by the creation of the second a legal policy reason. these images or recordings only if they are to be sold I will take the amendments in reverse order. I am for someone’s sexual gratification. I am not sure that very glad to hear that the noble Lord, Lord Marks, this is entirely true. I believe that, in some circumstances, has abandoned his earlier preference for strict liability financial gain may be made by unscrupulous individuals sex offences, which would be a very illiberal innovation peddling sick humour arising from such images, with in our criminal law. I take his point about accidental no intention on the perpetrator’s part to secure sexual occurrences and so on, but I do not find either gratification for anyone, whether others may view Amendment 2 or Amendment 3 to be particularly them for that purpose or not. The purpose of the attractive or to add anything to the Bill. perpetrator must be proved, not the coincidental fact that others may get sexual gratification from viewing 3.45 pm such images later. That brings me to the trickier conundrum of the TheamendmentmovedbythenobleLord,LordPannick, unsurprisingly elegant amendment from the noble Lord, is elegant and cleverly covers our point. However, the Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Baroness, noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, indicated to us Lady Butler-Sloss. I will be clear: I prefer their drafting. that he might look on that amendment favourably even It is a more perfect, forensic approach to this criminal if I have not persuaded the Government—I am not activity that we are trying to catch than the Bill’s sure that I have persuaded the Minister—of the merits wording. But here is my problem: the pragmatic concern of our amendments. I hope that I have done so; I do is that I do not want to send this Bill back to the not see the difficulty in accepting our amendments. We House of Commons in its current state—for the avoidance regardthemasimprovingtheBillbyspecificallyoutlawing of doubt, I mean the current state of the House of taking or recording images for financial gain or for Commons, not the current state of the Bill. I do not entertainment or amusement. Our amendments can want this very important additional protection for be taken with those in the names of the noble Lord, women in England and Wales to fall by the wayside. I Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Baroness, do not want the perfect to be the enemy of the good at Lady Butler-Sloss, which I hope the Government will this febrile political moment, when legislators are not accept in any event. The point is to avoid people who able to do everything we would prefer them to do. clearly should be convicted of offences under this That is my pragmatic point, but there is a serious new and welcome legislation unjustly running defences legal policy point as well: the language with which this of absence of the relevant purpose and getting away offence has been formulated comes from the criminal with it. statute book of another jurisdiction not very far from here—it comes from Scotland, where, we are told, this Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD): My Lords, I will offence has been in operation without the spurious add briefly to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord defences that great legal minds in your Lordships’ Pannick, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler- House have posited. These defences have not successfully Sloss and my noble friend Lord Marks. As the noble been made and the narrow interpretation of the word Lord, Lord Pannick, will already have gathered, we “humiliate” has not been used in Scotland. I am welcome Amendment 1, which would widen the offence concerned about your Lordships’ House doing and to include, saying anything on the public record that would cast “invading the privacy of B, whether or not by”, that broader interpretation of “to humiliate” into humiliating, alarming or distressing them, for the reasons doubt in the Scottish jurisdiction. While I absolutely he has given. would prefer the formulation from the noble Lord, Amendment 2 would widen the motivations to include Lord Pannick, I want, at least for the time being, financial gain by the person who took the photo or because I believe that the Government say that this whoever has distributed it. Upskirting images are freely offence will be under review for a short period, to and easily available on the internet; this amendment prefer, in concert with other noble Lords—especially spells out that anyone profiting from their distribution the Minister, whose words will really count for the is committing a criminal offence. purposes of Hansard—a more objective reading of Amendment 3 cuts off the defence that a group of this concept of humiliation, which is not necessarily “lads”—however old they may be—were bonding, having about the feelings of the victim of the offence. It is a laugh and did not mean any harm. It is not okay, about the intended action of the perpetrator. 493 Voyeurism(Offences)(No.2)Bill[26 NOVEMBER 2018] Voyeurism(Offences)(No.2)Bill 494

In thinking about this, I have looked at many from the distressing practice of upskirting. I recognise dictionary definitions of the verb to humiliate. Like that these three amendments are well intentioned and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and other noble Lords, that noble Lords are trying to be helpful, but they are I too was concerned that the test of causing a humiliation unnecessary and may delay the passage of what is a might be too high: it sought too dramatic and negative good Bill as drafted. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady an emotional effect on the victim. However, if noble Chakrabarti, for her support in this. Lords look at dictionary definitions of the verb “humiliate”, or at synonyms in thesauruses and so on, Amendment 1 seeks to address concerns that they will find that the test is not as high as they might perpetrators can argue that they had no intention to think. To humiliate means to humble, to lower, to humiliate, distress or alarm the victim and, by doing demean, to crush, to interfere with the dignity—that is so, get away with this heinous behaviour. The amendment a phrase I have seen in such dictionaries and thesauruses. is based on the view that, because by its very nature Surely in 2018 we can agree that to intrude on a the act of upskirting is an invasion of privacy, it would person’s privacy in this way—usually a woman, although be easier for a perpetrator to be caught by the Bill if it I agree that it could be a man in a kilt—can only be to was drafted in this way, compared with the need to somehow lower, crush, demean, humble, et cetera. establish an intention to humiliate, alarm or distress Otherwise, there is no laugh, no entertainment. If it the victim, as it is currently drafted. were not intrusive, it would not be funny, entertaining, The amendment would include those who may amusing, et cetera. That is one reading, the reading claim they committed an act of upskirting for financial that has clearly worked to date in Scotland. It is the gain, such as the paparazzi, which is the issue that reading I prefer, in order not to cast doubt on that Amendment 2 seeks to address; those doing it “for a criminal offence and its enforceability in Scotland and laugh” or for entertainment or amusement, which is to be in solidarity with that system and those victims. the issue that Amendment 3 seeks to address; or If I am proved wrong down the road, so be it. Then indeed those who claim that the victim could not have there would be a further conundrum about how to felt humiliated, distressed, or alarmed because they ensure that both jurisdictions improve the formulation did not know that upskirting had taken place. of the offence, but for the moment I do not see that it is necessary and I make that argument of interpretation However, I am not convinced that Amendments 1, alongside the pragmatic one about the need to complete 2 and 3 address these specific concerns any better than the passage of this vital Bill, on which we can all agree, the purposes as currently drafted, and I remain confident through this House. that the existing purposes will capture all those who should be criminalised for this behaviour, including those who would come under the proposed purposes Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con): My Lords, I thank set out in the amendments. Obtaining sexual gratification all noble Lords who have taken part in this short and humiliating, alarming or distressing a victim is debate. The Bill creates two new offences to capture terminology which is clear, appropriate and familiar instances where a person takes an upskirt image for to criminal justice agencies and the courts. I thank the the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification and/or noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, for her definition causing humiliation, distress or alarm to the victim. It of “humiliating”. I too have looked it up in a dictionary also ensures that the most serious offenders, where the and it is indeed very broad; nor is the bar set particularly purpose of the offending is for sexual gratification, are high, I think. made subject to notification requirements—colloquially known as being put on the sex offenders register. In Perpetrators of upskirting will likely have several speaking to Amendment 1, I will speak also to different purposes or motivations when conducting Amendments 2 and 3. themselves in this way. For example, if someone took Amendment 1, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord an upskirt image because of their voyeuristic tendencies Pannick, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady or because they were going to put it on a pornographic Butler-Sloss, does not add an additional purpose but website, or have it published in some other way, they replaces the purpose of humiliating, alarming or would likely be captured because there is a clear distressing the victim with a purpose of invasion of inference that their purpose was to obtain sexual privacy, whether or not the perpetrator intends to gratification or so that another person could obtain humiliate, distress or alarm the victim. The prosecution sexual gratification. would therefore need to show that the perpetrator It is no defence, with regard to the current purposes, intended to invade the victim’s privacy—or to obtain to say that the victim was not aware that an upskirt sexual gratification under the existing first purpose—to image had been taken and therefore would not actively be guilty of one of the new offences. feel humiliated. It is the intent of the perpetrator when Amendments 2 and 3, tabled by the noble Lord, upskirting their victim which is key here: this is a Lord Marks, and the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, fundamentally covert practice and the victim may not would add a third and/or a fourth purpose for which a know it is happening at the time. The fact that the perpetrator could commit either of the new upskirting victim is therefore spared the humiliation, alarm or offences contained within the Bill. They seek to ensure distress when the upskirting occurs does not change that those who commit upskirting for financial gain, the fact that this was the perpetrator’s intent in taking or for entertainment or amusement, would be caught the image in the first place. If it was not, the most by the offences. There is support, as we have heard likely alternative is that the perpetrator intended to today, from all sides of your Lordships’ House to obtain sexual gratification, which remains the other ensure that the law is suitably robust to protect victims purpose in any event. 495 Voyeurism(Offences)(No.2)Bill[LORDS] Voyeurism(Offences)(No.2)Bill 496

[BARONESS VERE OF NORBITON] these new offences, uncertainty would once again arise In relation to Amendment 2, if an upskirt image of in relation to the same problem that they are being a celebrity is published in a newspaper or shown on introduced to address. any other media outlet, the image will be of interest The Bill reflects the parameters of similar offences and therefore may have value because of the humiliation, in Scotland, an issue raised by the noble Baroness, alarm or distress that is, or is intended to be, caused to Lady Chakrabarti. Changing the purposes in this Bill, the victim. Whether or not a person was paid for the which applies to England and Wales, might suggest that image does not detract from the humiliation caused, we feel that the Scottish legislation does not go far enough. but the act of offering it for publication might be However, our Scottish counterparts have advised that, taken into account at the sentencing stage as making followingananalysisof reportedcasessincetheintroduction the offence more serious. It does not matter whether it of the offences, there has been no indication that their was the person who took the image or the person they provisions are unduly restrictive or that they have caused intended to share it with who has the purpose of problems for prosecutors. There is therefore no evidence obtaining sexual gratification or causing humiliation—the to suggest that the legislation will fail, as feared by the new offences apply in either case. Indeed, where there noble Lord, Lord Pannick, or that the purposes are not is sufficient evidence that the purpose for taking an helpful, as noted by the noble Lord, Lord Marks. upskirt image was, for example, to humiliate the victim, The new offences, once in place, must work as a perpetrator could be charged regardless of any other intended. That is why the Parliamentary Under-Secretary reasons, financial or otherwise, they might have for of State for Justice, Lucy Frazer MP, committed on taking the photograph. There is also a concern that Report in the other place to the Government reviewing “financial gain” is itself not defined and would need to the operation of these offences two years after they be in order to be properly understood and interpreted come into force. This will include working with the in the context of upskirting and other sexual offences police and the CPS to carry out a review of cases to legislation. identify any issues with the legislation. We will report Turning to Amendment 3, if someone takes an our findings to Parliament on completion of the review. upskirt image “for a laugh”—or, to put it another way, I have listened carefully to all noble Lords who have for entertainment or amusement—it is clearly implicit contributed to the debate this afternoon. I recognise that the laugh, entertainment or amusement derives that the amendments in this group are well intentioned from the humiliation, alarm or distress caused to the and designed to be helpful. However, I am confident victim. The primary reason the upskirt image has that the Bill as drafted achieves what it sets out to do. entertainment value, to the perpetrator or anyone else, Any amendments made in your Lordships’ House will is again because of the humiliation, alarm or distress need to be considered in the other place in due course. caused to the victim. Therefore, this behaviour will be I do not believe that any of these amendments improves caught by the purposes as currently drafted. the Bill in a way that merits a potential delay. On that It is worth noting that Amendment 1 could limit basis, I respectfully ask the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, the flexibility the Bill currently provides—for example, to withdraw his amendment. the existing purpose of intending to humiliate, alarm, or distress covers a case where a person takes an Lord Pannick: I am grateful to the Minister for her upskirt image to bond with friends or peers. It is less thoughtful and detailed response to my amendment, clear that the courts would consider that the friend—or and to all noble Lords who have participated in this “the lad”—looking at these images could be said to debate. I accept that, as the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, have the purpose of invading the victim’s privacy. This said, distress for the victim is almost inevitable once could be termed as a loophole. she knows of the act of upskirting—though not in all I also wonder whether Amendment 1 would overcome cases, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler- the evidential issue that the noble Lord is concerned Sloss, has told the Committee. The problem is that the about. It is at least as arguable that the intent to offence as defined in the Bill will require proof beyond humiliate is as intrinsic to the practice of upskirting as a reasonable doubt that “humiliating, alarming or the intent to invade privacy. Surely the likely effect of distressing” the victim is the purpose of the wrongdoer. the amendment would be to shift the focus of argument I see the force of the Minister’s point that the from whether a person intended to humiliate or distress “laugh”can be said to be the consequence of humiliation, a victim to whether they intended to invade their alarm or distress. The difficulty remains, however, as privacy. At this point I turn to the noble and learned the noble Lord, Lord Marks, pointed out, that it will Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and her blowing-up skirt. almost always be the intention or purpose of the Would she have the expectation of privacy if her skirt wrongdoer that the victim should not know of the act had blown up? That argument would be had in the of upskirting. That would enable the wrongdoer to courts—another possible loophole, or indeed a manhole. argue that it was not his purpose to humiliate, alarm or distress, although he will be forced to concede that 4 pm once the victim knows what has happened, she—with When considering how this amendment is framed, the exception of the noble and learned Baroness and we must also keep in mind the specific gap in the law others who think like her—will be humiliated, alarmed which these new offences address: those cases of upskirting or distressed. The prosecution have to prove purpose. which happen in a place or in circumstances where it That is the problem, as I see it. could be argued that there was no reasonable expectation The noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, told the of privacy or no privacy to be invaded. It is therefore House candidly that she would prefer the drafting in possible that by introducing a notion of privacy into Amendment 1—I see her nodding. She expressed two 497 Voyeurism(Offences)(No.2)Bill[26 NOVEMBER 2018] Voyeurism(Offences)(No.2)Bill 498 concerns, which were echoed by the Minister. The first (3B) It is a defence for a person (A) charged with an offence is a pragmatic concern that this Bill should not be sent under subsection (3A) to prove— back to the other place because that will cause delay (a) that disclosure of the image was necessary for the and there are uncertainties about what would happen purposes of preventing or detecting crime, or to it. With great respect, that is a wholly unrealistic (b) that (A) did not disclose the image with the intent concern. If this amendment has force, and if the of disclosing an image of another person’s genitals, Government were to accept it—I know they will not—or buttocks or underwear.” were to accept some redrafting that addresses the concerns that have been expressed, it would be simply Baroness Burt of Solihull: My Lords, Amendment 4 inconceivable that the House of Commons could not stands in the names of my noble friend Lord Marks find government time to consider the matter again. and myself. The proposed new subsections (3A) and How long would it take? On ping-pong, the House of (3B) in Amendment 4 would widen the offence to all Commons deals with the most complex matters in disclosures made without consent, with a get-out clause 30 minutes or an hour. I simply do not accept that that to cover the situation if a picture is inadvertently is a real concern—it could be raised about any Bill on taken—for example, by a member of the paparazzi. any important subject. It is surely our job to try to get Researchers from Durham University have found legislation right. that upskirt videos are easily and freely available on The second concern related to Scotland, where mainstream pornography websites. Over a period of these defences have not so far succeeded. There is just six months they found close to 2,500 videos on the limited experience there. Our concern is not to cast landing page of the UK’s top three most accessed doubt on Scottish legislation but to raise real concerns porn sites, depicting acts that can be classed as forms about what will happen in practice. We are enacting of image-based sexual abuse. Importantly, these titles legislation, and we should get it right, not just follow were on the very front page of these mainstream sites, the Scottish experience if we are persuaded that freely and easily accessible for a first-time user. They amendments are required. are not hidden. I found the points made by the noble and learned We know from victim-survivors that their intimate Lords, Lord Hope of Craighead and Lord Brown of images often end up on porn sites, viewed thousands Eaton-under-Heywood, more troubling. As I understood of times and seriously amplifying the harms that they them, neither disputed that the noble and learned experience, making things worse. Once the images are Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, other noble Lords and I uploaded to porn sites, getting them taken down from have raised real concerns about potential loopholes—or all sites is then extremely difficult. manholes. I see the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope The noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, and the of Craighead, nodding. Their concern is whether the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, mentioned Scotland. As solution we are proffering is the right one. I will we know, Scotland has recently criminalised the consider that, as will, I am sure, the noble and learned distribution of upskirting images. Its new law came Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, before Report. into effect in July last year. Since then, 421 incidents I would welcome the opportunity to discuss with all have been recorded by police. Analysts have concluded interested noble Lords and the Minister whether we that while some of these cases might have been recorded can reach agreement on an amendment that in no way as a different crime or offence had they occurred prior damages the strength of the Bill but removes a potential to the new law coming into effect, it is likely that the loophole. I am not wedded to this particular solution; clear majority of them would not have been classified I am concerned about the problem. I think we have to as a sexual crime. get this right. In the other place, when this subject was It is also the case that the enactment of that legislation discussed in June, Diana Johnson MP asked, extended the criminal law to criminalise certain conduct … “how many hours of debate will be required for Members to that previously might not have been illegal. This analysis arrive at the conclusion that the taking of photographs underneath, mainly, women’s clothes by perverts is a bad thing?”—[Official demonstrates that an offence of distribution is a useful Report, Commons, 18/6/18; col. 48.] tool for the police, and I hope the Minister will also We have taken 45 minutes, which I think is a valuable recognise the value of such an offence. use of parliamentary time. I think this is a subject we should return to, no doubt briefly, on Report, and a Lord Swinfen (Con): My Lords, I have one quick subject that may well require an amendment to the question: does this apply to men wearing kilts as well Bill, which I hope we can achieve by agreement. In the as to women wearing skirts? meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 1 withdrawn. Baroness Vere of Norbiton: My Lords, I can address that question very quickly: yes, it does. This is a Amendments 2 and 3 not moved. non-gender-specific piece of legislation. Amendment 4 would create a further offence of Amendment 4 disclosing an upskirt image to another person without Moved by Baroness Burt of Solihull the consent of the person in the image. It would also 4: Clause 1, page 2, line 8, at end insert— provide for two defences for this offence: namely, that “(3A) It is an offence for a person (A) to disclose an image the disclosure of the image was necessary for the purposes of another person (B) recorded during the commission of preventing or detecting crime, or that the image was of an offence under subsection (2) if the disclosure is not disclosed with the intent of disclosing an image of made without B’s consent. another person’s genitals, buttocks or underwear. 499 Voyeurism(Offences)(No.2)Bill[LORDS] Leaving the European Union 500

[BARONESS VERE OF NORBITON] to play in tackling online abuse. That is why YouTube, The Government share the concerns around the Facebook, Twitter and others all have terms and onward sharing of upskirt images and understand the conditions that state that they will remove upskirt very real harm that this causes victims. It is important images. to send a clear message that sharing such images However, important questions remain that must be without consent is unacceptable and causes humiliation, considered before we can legislate effectively in this alarm and distress. It is therefore important that we area. The amendment could criminalise someone who ensure that the law is sufficiently robust to protect received and shared an upskirt image, even if they did victims from this disturbing practice. However, the Bill not know that it had been taken without consent. It is is intended to close a small gap in the law around the not always obvious from images whether the person taking of upskirt images, which is just one aspect of a being photographed consented. far wider problem. Legislating for the non-consensual Legislating for the distribution of upskirt images in sharing of intimate or naked images, including upskirt the Bill risks over-criminalising or inappropriately images, is a far more complex issue than the offences criminalising all aspects of this behaviour. By legislating covered by the Bill. for upskirt images in isolation, there is a risk of That is why the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of cutting across broader work under way in this very State for Justice committed in the other place to ask important area and potentially jeopardising the the Law Commission to review the taking and sharing opportunity to legislate more widely. On this basis, I of all non-consensual intimate images. This will be a urge the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, to withdraw her broad review looking at how technological change has amendment. enabled new types of harmful behaviour and how the law needs to evolve to tackle it. The Ministry of Baroness Burt of Solihull: I am grateful for the Justice is currently working with the Department for Minister’s comments. I very much take her point that Digital, Culture, Media and Sport and the Law this is a complex issue and that other laws have been Commission to consider how best to take this important effected and could be used. It will have become apparent and wide-ranging piece of work forward. This will to the Committee that I am not a lawyer, but I have a build on the detailed and insightful report on online strong sense that this is an issue that we should consider. and offensive communications published by the Law I take the point about the Law Commission review, Commission on 1 November. The report makes several which is under way at the moment, and with my noble recommendations about how the criminal law could friend Lord Marks and others, we will reflect on the be reformed to tackle abusive and harmful online Minister’s comments. For the time being, I beg leave to communications. withdraw the amendment. Amendment 4 withdrawn. 4.15 pm The Government are committed to providing a Clause 1 agreed. cross-government response to those complex issues to ensure that such abuse is tackled appropriately and Clause 2 agreed effectively. As drafted, the new offences in the Bill capture someone who records an upskirt image for the House resumed. purpose of obtaining sexual gratification for themselves or so that another person can do so. The same is true Bill reported without amendment. for the second purpose of humiliating, distressing or alarming the victim. 4.19 pm If someone convicted of taking an upskirt image Sitting suspended. has also shared it, whether on a pornography site or elsewhere, any additional harm caused by this would also be taken into account in sentencing. The two-year Leaving the European Union maximum sentence for the new offences is a serious Statement penalty that fully reflects the harm caused. 5 pm Furthermore, a matter which is grossly offensive or The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) of an indecent, obscene or menacing character, which (Con): My Lords, with the leave of the House I will may include the distribution of non-consensual intimate now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable imagery, such as an upskirt photo—or the threat to friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement distribute the same—are activities already criminalised is as follows: under Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 and Section 1 of the Malicious Communications Act “With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make 1988. If there was a course of conduct in relation to a Statement on the conclusion of our negotiations to this type of behaviour, because it happened on more leave the European Union. At yesterday’sspecial European than one occasion, it could also be captured by the Council in Brussels, I reached a deal with the leaders Protection from Harassment Act. of the other 27 EU member states on a withdrawal agreement that will ensure our smooth and orderly We have laws to cover distribution, but we recognise departure on 29 March next year and, tied to this that we need to review all of them to ensure that there agreement, a political declaration on an ambitious are no gaps. There is also an important role for industry future partnership that is in our national interest. 501 Leaving the European Union[26 NOVEMBER 2018] Leaving the European Union 502

This is the right deal for Britain because it delivers in place by 1 January 2021. The withdrawal agreement on the democratic decision of the people. It takes back has a legal duty on both sides to use best endeavours control of our borders. It ends the free movement of to avoid the backstop ever coming into force. If, people in full once and for all, allowing the Government despite this, the future relationship was not ready by to introduce a new skills-based immigration system. It the end of 2020, we would not be forced to use the takes back control of our laws. It ends the jurisdiction backstop. We would have a clear choice between the of the European Court of Justice in the UK and backstop or a short extension to the implementation means instead our laws being made in our Parliaments, period. enforced by our courts. It takes back control of our If we did choose the backstop, the legal text is clear money; it ends the vast annual payments we send to that it should be temporary and that the Article 50 Brussels. So instead we can spend taxpayers’ money legal base cannot provide for a permanent relationship. on our own priorities, including the £394 million a There is now more flexibility so that it can be superseded, week of extra investment in our long-term plan for the either by the future relationship or by alternative National Health Service. arrangements, which include the potential for facilitative By creating a new free trade area with no tariffs, arrangements and technologies to avoid a hard border fees, charges, quantitative restrictions or rules of origin on the island of Ireland. checks, this deal protects jobs, including those that There is also a termination clause, which allows the rely on integrated supply chains. It protects our security backstop to be turned off when we have fulfilled our with a close relationship on defence and on tackling commitments on the Northern Ireland border. There crime and terrorism, which will help to keep all our is a unilateral right to trigger a review through the people safe. It protects the integrity of our United joint committee and the ability to seek independent Kingdom, meeting our commitments in Northern Ireland arbitration if the EU does not use good faith in this and delivering for the whole UK family, including our process. Furthermore, as a result of the changes we overseas territories and the Crown dependencies. have negotiated, the legal text is now also clear that On Gibraltar, we have worked constructively with once the backstop has been superseded it shall ‘cease the Governments of Spain and Gibraltar, and I want to apply’. So if a future Parliament decided to then to pay tribute in particular to Gibraltar’s Chief Minister, move from an initially deep trade relationship to a Fabian Picardo, for his statesmanship in these negotiations. looser one the backstop could not return. We have ensured that Gibraltar is covered by the I do not pretend that either we or the EU are whole withdrawal agreement and by the implementation entirely happy with these arrangements, and that is period. For the future partnership, the UK Government how it must be. Were either party entirely happy, that will be negotiating for the whole UK family, including party would have no incentive to move on to the future Gibraltar. As Fabian Picardo said this weekend: relationship. But there is no alternative deal that honours ‘Every aspect of the response of the United Kingdom was our commitments to Northern Ireland which does not agreed with the Government of Gibraltar.Wehave worked seamlessly involve this insurance policy, and the EU would not together in this as we have in all other aspects of this two year have agreed any future partnership without it. Put period of negotiation. Most importantly, the legal text of the simply, there is no deal that comes without a backstop, draft Withdrawal Agreement has not been changed. That is what and without a backstop there is no deal. the Spanish Government repeatedly sought. But they have not achieved that. The United Kingdom has not let us down’. The withdrawal agreement is accompanied by a political declaration, which sets out the scope and Our message to the people of Gibraltar is clear: we terms of an ambitious future relationship between the will always stand by you. We are proud that Gibraltar UK and the EU. It is a detailed set of instructions to is British and our position on sovereignty has not and negotiators that will be used to deliver a legal agreement will not change. on our future relationship after we have left. The The withdrawal agreement will ensure that we leave linkage clause between the withdrawal agreement and the European Union on 29 March next year in a this declaration requires both sides to use best endeavours smooth and orderly way. It protects the rights of EU to get this legal text agreed and implemented by the citizens living in the UK and UK citizens living in the end of 2020. Both sides are committed to making EU, so they can carry on living their lives as before. It preparations for an immediate start to the formal delivers a time-limited implementation period to give negotiations after our withdrawal. business time to prepare for the new arrangements. The declaration contains specific detail on our future During the implementation period trade will continue economic relationship. This includes a new free trade on current terms so businesses have to face only one area with no tariffs, fees, quantitative restrictions or set of changes. It ensures a fair settlement of our rules of origin checks—an unprecedented economic financial obligations—less than half of what some relationship that no other major economy has. It originally expected and demanded. It also meets our includes liberalisation in trade in services well beyond commitment to ensure there is no hard border between WTO commitments and building on recent EU free Northern Ireland and Ireland—and no customs border trade agreements. It includes new arrangements for in the Irish Sea—in the event that the future relationship our financial services sector, ensuring market access is not ready by the end of the implementation period. cannot be withdrawn on a whim and providing stability I know that some Members remain concerned that and certainty for our world-leading industry. It ensures we could find ourselves stuck in this backstop. So let that we will leave EU programmes that do not work in me address this directly. First, this is an insurance our interests, so we will be out of the common agricultural policy that no one wants to use. Both the UK and the policy that has failed our farmers and out of the EU are fully committed to having our future relationship common fisheries policy that has failed our coastal 503 Leaving the European Union[LORDS] Leaving the European Union 504

[BARONESS EVANS OF BOWES PARK] 5.11 pm communities. Instead, as the political declaration sets Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): Well, my Lords, out, we will be ‘an independent coastal state’ once another day, another Statement. I am grateful to the again. We will take back full sovereign control over noble Baroness the Leader of the House for repeating our waters, so we will be able to decide for ourselves today’s Statement. whom we allow to fish in our waters. The EU has Exactly 886 days have passed since the EU referendum, maintained throughout this process that it wanted to and it is more than 600 days since the Prime Minister link overall access to markets to access to fisheries. It wrote to the President of the European Council to failed in the withdrawal agreement, and it failed again invoke Article 50. At that point, the clock started in the political declaration. It is no surprise that some ticking. Many of us struggled to understand why, in are already trying to lay down markers again for the her Lancaster House speech, the Prime Minister tied future relationship, but they should be getting used to her own hands with a series of hard red lines. Having the answer by now: it is not going to happen. set out what appeared to be a hard Brexit before talks Finally, the declaration is clear that whatever is had even begun, the most enthusiastic Brexiteers felt agreed in the future partnership must recognise the emboldened. development of an independent UK trade policy beyond The problem for the Prime Minister is that all too this economic partnership. So, for the first time in 40 often, rather than taking a clear position, she has years, the UK will be able to strike new trade deals and sought to please one or other of the many camps in open up new markets for our goods and services in the her own party, and her message at home has at times fastest-growing economies around the world. been different in both tone and content from her As I set out for the House last week, the future message to the EU. So, as time went on and with relationship also includes a comprehensive new security negotiations stalling, Mrs May had to fly to Florence partnership with close reciprocal law enforcement and to extend an olive branch to the EU 27. But for many judicial co-operation to keep all our people safe. At of our EU neighbours their good will had already the outset we were told that, being outside free movement been tested. After she failed once again to make a and outside the Schengen area, we would be treated breakthrough in Brussels, the Cabinet met at Chequers like any other non-EU state on security. But this in July, agreeing a proposal that could not even survive deal delivers the broadest security partnership in the a weekend before the first Brexit Secretary resigned, EU’s history, including arrangements for effective data goading Boris Johnson, the then Foreign Secretary, to exchange on passenger name records, DNA, fingerprints follow suit. Despite such high-profile resignations, the and vehicle registration data, as well as extradition Prime Minister insisted that her way was the only way. arrangements like those in the European arrest warrant. She was clear: there is no alternative. That has a It also opens the way to sharing the types of information familiar ring. As ever, she forged on. included in the ECRIS and SIS II databases on wanted I have reflected before that the Prime Minister’s or missing persons and criminal records. strategy is to live in the moment—to simply get through This has been a long and complex negotiation. It each week at a time. This has never been as true as it is has required give and take on both sides. That is the now. Last week, with a defiant flourish, the Prime nature of a negotiation. But this deal honours the Minister presented the political declaration to Parliament, result of the referendum, while providing a close economic which was a clear admission that the Chequers deal and security relationship with our nearest neighbours, was dead in the water—the deal that she had defended and in so doing offers a brighter future for the British so strongly. Yet again we are told that this is the only people, outside the EU. I can say to the House with proposal on the table—the only show in town. I think absolute certainty that there is not a better deal available. I am not alone in failing to understand why the Prime My fellow leaders were themselves very clear on that Minister is continuing on this course. She must know yesterday. that her deal, which is little more than a blind Brexit, cannot possibly win a majority in the other place. As Our duty as a Parliament over these coming weeks we discussed on Thursday’s Statement, it is pretty is to examine this deal in detail, to debate it respectfully, much an aspiration without promises or guarantees. to listen to our constituents and decide what is in our The Prime Minister also knows that no deal would national interest. There is a choice which this House be as disastrous for UK families, communities and will have to make. We can back this deal, deliver on the businesses, yet she continues to present this flawed, vote of the referendum and move on to building a inadequate deal as though it is “my deal or no deal” brighter future of opportunity and prosperity for all and seeks to pray in aid EU Presidents Juncker and our people or this House can choose to reject this deal Tusk. I can understand senior EU figures lending their and go back to square one, because no one knows support to the Prime Minister at this exceptionally what will happen if this deal does not pass. It would precarious time in her premiership. But, despite the open the door to more division and more uncertainty, Prime Minister’s “carry on regardless” approach, there with all the risks that would entail. are other options on the table, including that, as I believe our national interest is clear. The British Michel Barnier has always been clear, the EU’s offer people want us to get on with a deal that honours the can, and will, evolve if the UK changes its red lines. referendum and allows us to come together again as a This is in relation not just to the withdrawal agreement country, whichever way we voted. This is that deal—a but to the terms of the future relationship as well. deal that delivers for the British people—and I commend We have been very clear that we could accept a deal this Statement to the House”. only if it delivered a permanent UK-EU customs My Lords, that concludes the Statement. union, a strong, ongoing relationship with the single 505 Leaving the European Union[26 NOVEMBER 2018] Leaving the European Union 506 market and high-level protection for workers, consumers reputable forecast argues that we will be better off, and and the environment. Also, it remains obvious that I suspect that later in the week the Treasury will too little consideration was initially given by the confirm that. Therefore, I ask the Leader of the House Government to the complex issues affecting Northern why the Prime Minister repeatedly claims that her deal Ireland and the Good Friday agreement. That is equally is good for the economy. It clearly is not. true of Gibraltar, which I first raised in your Lordships’ If the deal is dead, what are the options? There is House just four months after the referendum in 2016; much discussion among fevered Conservative MPs for both, the details have yet to be resolved. So, this about plan Bs, but the problem for them is that all deal does not deliver on the key priorities. Indeed, these plans have been examined and rejected by the leaked emails describing it as “not a good deal” explain Government because they are either practically or last week’s lacklustre response from the CBI. In fact, politically unworkable, and they have not become the only support the Prime Minister has been able to more workable now. garner is pretty lukewarm and seems to be more about The Prime Minister is right to say in the Statement the fear of a no-deal exit if she cannot get her deal. that voting against the deal would take us “back to There are many, many questions that I could ask square one”, if by that she means that the only realistic the noble Baroness the Leader of the House. I know alternative to the deal is remaining in the EU. Can the that she has been inundated with questions in response Leader confirm that this is indeed what these words to recent Statements; it is always hard to answer mean? everything. I therefore want to be very clear and In her letter to colleagues yesterday, the Prime straight to the point with just two questions: does she Minister said that no one should be in any doubt that consider that the deal before us is the very best that is that there are some who want a second referendum, available? And does she consider that the deal before which she then bizarrely describes as a politician’s us is better than what we currently have? vote—Alice in Wonderland in action. Well, too right—they If Ministers are unable to honestly answer yes to do want a referendum on whether this deal is better both these questions, then they have failed all those than continued EU membership. I suspect that the who voted in the referendum, whichever way they 59% of people in her own constituency who would now voted. vote remain would like a vote, as would the 56% of the population as a whole who would now vote to remain. Lord Newby (LD): My Lords, I too thank the I understand that the Prime Minister is about to Leader for repeating the Statement. We now have the embark on a nationwide tour to promote the Brexit agreement signed and sealed; the time for wishful deal. Given that she knows that the deal is dead in the thinking is over. Given the constraints that she imposed Commons, I can only assume that these are in fact her upon herself, I agree with the Prime Minister when she opening shots in a campaign to win popular support says that she has probably reached the best deal available. in advance of a people’s vote on the deal. We look Even if she had had a dream team of negotiators, forward to joining her on the campaign trail. drawn from the Brexiteers normally to be found on the Conservative Privy Council Bench in your Lordships’ House, she could not have achieved the “cake and eat Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I thank the noble it” deal which so many of them have advocated. Baroness and the noble Lord for their comments. In In normal circumstances, we would now concentrate relation to the noble Baroness’s comments on Gibraltar, on questioning the Government on what they meant we have ensured that Gibraltar is covered by the whole in various particularly vague clauses of the political of the withdrawal agreement and implementation period. declaration. Wemight, for example, probe paragraph 107, Our position on Gibraltar’s sovereignty has not changed which is about space and simply reads: and will not change. The words of the Chief Minister “The Parties should consider appropriate arrangements for quoted in the Statement were strong. They showed our cooperation on space”. commitment to Gibraltar during the negotiations, and This is not a policy on space; it is a waste of space. that will continue. We might equally probe paragraphs 73 to 76 on fishing. This deal will deliver an economic partnership with But the truth is that there is absolutely no point in the EU closer than that enjoyed by any other country, worrying about the details of the declaration because and it will ensure an unprecedented security partnership. it is now abundantly clear that it will not be approved It is a good deal and, as Donald Tusk, Jean-Claude by the Commons, and this is despite the time-honoured Juncker and Michel Barnier have all said, it is the best Whips’tactic of offering baubles to wavering Conservative one available. MPs. Clearly the offer of a knighthood does not do The noble Lord, Lord Newby, asked about Galileo. the trick. I would be extremely worried if I were the Of course we have been in discussions with the EU noble Lord, Lord Burns; I suspect that his hopes for about this, but we could not depend on Galileo for reducing the size of your Lordships’ House are now in defence and security on the basis of the existing and vain. proposed security restrictions for third countries. We The Government are promising us an economic are therefore rapidly advancing the development of a assessment of the consequences of the deal later this domestic system that will fulfil our defence and security week. We already have one today from the National needs and support the world-leading British space sector. Institute of Economic and Social Research, which The noble Lord also talked about the vote, and of estimates that the cost of the deal could be up to course it will be one of the most significant votes that £1,100 per person by 2030. I know that some people Parliament has held for many years. However, as the will pooh-pooh this, as they do all forecasts, but no Statement made clear, we do not know what will 507 Leaving the European Union[LORDS] Leaving the European Union 508

[BARONESS EVANS OF BOWES PARK] Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab): Does the noble Baroness happen if the deal does not pass. All we do know is agree that, on this occasion, and very unusually, the that further uncertainty and division would inevitably noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, follow, and I do not believe that any of us wants that misspoke? The question I think he posed was: given for this country. that we will leave the European Union, this is the best deal and there is no alternative. But that is patently not Baroness Smith of Basildon: As we still have time for the case. Whatever the merits of EFTA or the European the noble Baroness to reply, will she answer the second Union moving from Pillar 1 to Pillar 2, the option is question that I asked? Does she consider that the deal available and has been well covered in many recent before us is better than what we currently have? pamphlets.

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: As I said, this deal Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: An EEA-type will deliver a strong economic partnership with the agreement is not comprehensive and would not cover EU and will allow us to develop an independent trade issues such as customs, external and internal security, policy—so we will have a bright future going forward the CAP,the CFP or Euratom. It would leave significant under this deal. gaps in our wider relationship with the EU. This is a deal that covers all those areas. 5.23 pm Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con): My Lords, on the Lord Wigley (PC): My Lords, if the EU Court of second question, it seems to me that the Prime Minister Justice concludes tomorrow that Article 50 is unilaterally is seeking to operate on the decision of the referendum. revocable, will the Government give an assurance that In other words, she is operating on the view that the they will not rule out the possibility of a temporary people want to leave the European Union. Therefore, pause to avoid unnecessarily crashing out with a shambolic the second question is not appropriate. The question no-deal Brexit? is: is it the best deal that can be obtained if we leave the European Union? I have a feeling that, if this deal Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I am sure the noble is not accepted, the proper question will then be what Lord will realise that I cannot comment on ongoing to do next—and it is for Parliament to answer that legal matters. question rather than for there to be a further period of delay and indecision, which will damage the livelihoods of so many of our fellow citizens who work in businesses Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): The Minister has that depend on trade with the European Union. just sketched out the enormous agenda that we had to negotiate with the European Union in 21 months, Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: My noble and learned with a Government that seem to still be unprepared friend is right, and the political declaration sets out a and divided as to what they want. The Statement says: clear vision for our future relationship, covering an “Both sides are committed to making preparations for an economic partnership, a security partnership and specific immediate start to the formal negotiations after our withdrawal”. agreements on cross-cutting co-operation. It will deliver There are European elections next May and then a economic benefits and shows that, in our relationship change of Commission, which means that there will with the EU, we are not just another third country. be four or five months in which the European Union This will be the most ambitious free trade agreement will not be in a fit state to negotiate. We lost three that the EU has with any other country, and it will months last year by having an election. Do we anticipate allow us to develop our own independent free trade that we really can begin to negotiate with a clear policy to ensure that we remain a global Britain. mandate from our side as well before the end of next year? Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab): My Lords, do the Government accept that there has already been a Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: The noble Lord is people’s vote, in 2016, and that the major parties right. Before our withdrawal in March, both sides undertook to honour its result? Do they accept that to have agreed to undertake preparatory work to enable break faith with those undertakings and agree to hold negotiations to begin as soon as possible. There is also a second referendum would be to intensify and perpetuate a clear programme to deliver an ambitious timetable, social division, political disaffection and economic which will include the structure of negotiations and uncertainty? Will the Minister confirm that, in the the schedule of rounds. He will also be aware that event of the House of Commons rejecting the withdrawal the withdrawal agreement includes a legally binding deal, the Government will not renege on their stated commitment to ensure that both sides use best endeavours refusal to accept the calls for a second referendum? to negotiate the detailed agreements that will give effect to the future relationship, in good faith, so that Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I thank the noble they come into force by the end of 2020. Lord for his comments. The Prime Minister has been repeatedly clear, as we in this House have been, that we Lord Luce (CB): My Lords, I first thank the have had a people’s vote—he is absolutely right—and Government for their support of the people of Gibraltar. the people voted to leave. We have now brought forward But will the Minister confirm that no concessions a deal to the House of Commons—we were told we whatever have been made to the EU in the past few would not be able to come to a deal, but we have—and days over Gibraltar? Will she confirm also that it is it will make its decision. But we do not believe that not acceptable, either to us or to the European Union there should or will be a second referendum. as a whole, that Spain should have the right of veto at 509 Leaving the European Union[26 NOVEMBER 2018] Leaving the European Union 510 the last stage of the overall agreement with the EU—if an opportunity to decide whether it wishes to remain there is such an agreement—because it wants a separate or whether it is willing to put up with this total agreement between Britain and Spain on Gibraltar? shambles.

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: We are absolutely Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: The political declaration committed to ensuring a deal that works for the entire sets out a clear vision and framework for a future UK family,including Gibraltar.Our position on Gibraltar relationship. Once we leave the EU, we will begin sovereignty has not changed and will not change. negotiating the detail of that. It is set out. We all want an ambitious economic and security partnership and that is what we will be working towards. Of course any Baroness Meyer (Con): My Lords, given that the final agreements with the EU will be put forward to head of HMRC, Jon Thompson, has again confirmed Parliament in the usual way. that, in the event of no deal, no hard border will be built in Northern Ireland; given that the Prime Minister of Ireland offered the same assurance last month; and Lord Shinkwin (Con): My Lords, my noble friend given that the backstop remains the main source of referred to “best endeavours”, which appears to be a dispute in this country over the Prime Minister’s deal, crucial phrase in the agreement. Given that we have can the Leader of the House help us to understand already seen what “best endeavours”actually means—the why there is any need for a backstop at all? EU 27 doing their best to do us over, to be competitively advantageous compared to the UK—why should we suddenly trust that it means completely the opposite: Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: As we have repeatedly that the EU starts to play fair and that, crucially, it made clear, this is an insurance policy no one wants to avoids using the backstop or allowing it to come into use. It is needed in case the future relationship is not force? ready at the end of the implementation period to ensure that there is no hard border. However, as we Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: As I said, the have also made clear, it is not the only option. There is withdrawal agreement contains a legally binding a possibility of a short extension to the implementation commitment to use best endeavours and to ensure that period. It has also been made clear in both the withdrawal we negotiate in good faith. There will be a mechanism agreement and political declaration that both sides will for resolving disputes, first through consultation at the consider how facilitative arrangements and technologies joint committee, with the aim of reaching a mutually can be used to avoid a hard border on the island of acceptable resolution. If that does not work, after Ireland. There are other options that we will all be three months either party can refer a dispute to exploring rather than the backstop. independent arbitration. It is there in legally binding text, and that is how we believe both sides will go into Baroness Ludford (LD): My Lords, there is an the negotiation. extraordinary sentence in the Statement that, “if a future Parliament decided to then move from an initially Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD): My Lords, will deep trade relationship to a looser one, the backstop could not the noble Baroness the Leader of the House confirm return”. that, if a matter is referred to independent arbitration The Prime Minister rightly said that the EU would not and if any issue of European Union law should arise, have agreed any future partnership deal without the it should be referred to the Court of Justice of the backstop but then this red meat is thrown to Brexiteers. European Union for a binding ruling, with the arbitration If the backstop is superseded in the future by moving panel obliged to settle a dispute in accordance with the to a looser trade relationship, the Government will ruling given by the CJEU? That makes a nonsense of show themselves as being completely untrustworthy saying that the CJEU will not have any relevance after and saying, “Yah boo, the backstop cannot come Brexit. back”. How is that generating trust in the long-term commitment of the Government to avoid a hard border Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: The arbitration in Ireland? panel would be the body to consider, decide and resolve disputes. The panel will consider a dispute, Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: It states in the make a ruling based on findings of fact and reach documents that any backstop—which we have repeatedly conclusions on questions of law or of interpretation made clear we do not want to be implemented—will of the agreement, other than on points of EU law. If be superseded by a future relationship. Both sides are the panel decides that there is a question of EU law signed up to that. which requires interpretation, it will submit a question to the CJEU, but it is for the panel alone to decide Lord Hain (Lab): This political declaration is full of whether to refer that question or not, and the resolution ambiguities and contradictions. Citizens, businesses of the dispute remains solely with the arbitration and consumers have no certainty, stability or sense of panel. security in going forward. Do not this Government continue to set sail on a journey but have no idea Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): My Lords, I where it will end—where the boat will berth, which apologise— port it will berth at or what the final destination will be? That is surely why this deal should be rejected and Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD): The noble Lord was not we should move to a position where the country has here to hear the Statement. He should not be heard. 511 Leaving the European Union[LORDS] Leaving the European Union 512

Lord Howell of Guildford: Very well. I was about to Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: It has already been apologise and put a point. I think noble Lords will set out that the money will be paid over a period of allow me— time. Some of it will be paid up front to cover legal obligations but some of it will be paid according to a Noble Lords: No. schedule, which is available. Not all the money will be paid up front. Lord Howell of Guildford: I will sit down. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab): My Lords, can the Lord Liddle (Lab): My Lords, I shall return to the Minister clarify her answer to the noble and learned point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, and Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern? From what he said draw attention again to an entirely new sentence in the today and last week, I understand that if the deal does Statement that we have not heard before from the not go through, he is not in favour of a people’s vote Government—that: but wants Parliament to accept responsibility for deciding “if a future Parliament decided to then move from an initially future action, which would include staying as a member deep trade relationship to a looser one, the backstop could not of the European Union. That is a very tempting way return”. forward. Does the noble Baroness agree with the noble Does the Minister agree that this is the Michael Gove and learned Lord on that? sentence, put in to satisfy him; that it suggests that Conservative MPs will be persuaded to vote for this agreement on the basis that it can later be abandoned Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I agree that the without any care for what happens to the situation House of Commons faces one of its most significant in Northern Ireland; that looser standards can be votes for many years. I will not prejudge the outcome introduced—we can have a regulatory competition of that vote. The deal is a good one, and I hope that with the rest of the European Union and do free trade the Commons will vote for it. deals with the United States that no one wants—and that the Conservative Party is contemplating reneging Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone (Con): My Lords, on what it is putting before Parliament? is it not the case that the country is heartily sick of the political shenanigans around this subject? The people Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I do not accept that. voted to leave. There is enormous admiration for the For instance, we have been clear that we propose to Prime Minister’s tenacity, courage, level head and maintain current social and employment standards, patriotic heart. It is time to settle for the best deal on that we want an independent trade policy, and that we offer and put the interests of the country and our want a strong economic partnership with the EU—one people first. of the most ambitious that it has had. That is what we will work towards. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I thank my noble Lord Jopling (Con): My Lords, I first refer to my friend. That chimes very strongly with the message interests in the register. The Prime Minister has said from the public on this issue. that we will be able to strike free trade deals around the world. Will that not mean that large swathes of Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB): Can the noble British industry will have added competition from the Baroness think again about her answer to the noble free trade of imports from all around the world but, and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness? This where British industry exports similar products to is the third time that we have been round this course. Europe, those exports will have to jump the common Surely it is clear in the documents negotiated by the external tariff of the 27? Am I right in thinking that Prime Minister that, if there is a matter of interpretation this would be one of the most monumental double of European law, the arbitration panel cannot decide whammies for British industry for a long time? it; it has to go to the European Court of Justice, and the European Court of Justice’s ruling on the Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: No. First, we will be interpretation of European law is valid. And is it not able to develop an independent UK trade policy. The the case—I have never had an answer from the political declaration sets out a plan for a free trade Government on this—that this withdrawal agreement area for goods with the EU, including zero tariffs, with or withdrawal treaty will be, necessarily, if the European ambitious customs arrangements to enable that. It will side can conclude it finally before 29 March, European be the first such agreement between an advanced law? economy and the EU. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: As I said, the CJEU Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP): Last Thursday, would give a view only on the interpretation of the the Minister told your Lordships that the financial specific point of EU law. The arbitration panel would settlement on the deal would cost between £34 billion then take a decision on how to resolve the dispute. and £38 billion, but she did not answer my question on when that money will be handed over. In particular, I want to press her on whether it will be handed over Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD): My Lords, if only when all the pious hopes in these agreements have the subject of the referendum had been this deal, how been fulfilled. If they are not, surely we will not hand many people does the Minister think would have over a penny. voted for it? 513 Leaving the European Union[26 NOVEMBER 2018] Kindertransport Commemoration 514

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: The British people there: the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of voted to leave. They now have a deal that achieves that Canterbury, the Chief Rabbi, the emeritus Catholic for them—a deal that many in your Lordships’ House Bishop of Southwark, a German Protestant bishop, said could not happen. A deal is on the table and it is a Islamic scholar Sheikh Babikir,the Immigration Minister good one. Let us hope that the House of Commons and Dame Esther Rantzen, as well as Kindertransport sees that and votes for it. survivors and recently arrived child refugees. We had 1,000 people there. It was intended to set off a campaign Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Con): My Lords, is there for us to do better than we are doing at the moment. a difference between the £39 billion that was promised Last week there was another event in Speaker’s House. and our legal obligations on exit? Is there a difference Many MPs and others read excerpts from Hansard of between what we owe and what we have promised? late 1938 leading up to the decision of the House of Commons to agree to accept child refugees. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: The financial settlement We have set out all along that there should be represents a fair settlement of our obligations as a all-party support as a basis of the campaign for departing member. As I said, it will between about unaccompanied child refugees. Many amendments were £35 billion and £39 billion, which is significantly less moved from the Back Benches. We deliberately sought than many people anticipated. It has been agreed in to gain the support of Government Back-Benchers, as the spirit of our future relationship. well as those of opposition parties. We called the campaign that started at Friends House Our Turn—our Kindertransport Commemoration turn to do more. The best way to commemorate the Question for Short Debate 1938 decision is for the UK to agree to accept 10,000 unaccompanied child refugees over the next 10 years. 5.44 pm That is 1,000 per annum, or three per local authority. It is a very modest request indeed, but with an additional Asked by Lord Dubs difference that these would come from not just Europe To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans but the region. We already have schemes in the region; they have to commemorate the 80th anniversary of I will refer to those in a moment. Recently, I visited a the decision to allow Kindertransport children to refugee camp in Jordan, and a little bit earlier I was on come to the United Kingdom. the Greek island of Lesbos, looking at the camps there. Lord Dubs (Lab): My Lords, many of you will be In 2017, nearly 33,000 children arrived in Europe, familiar with the plaque just off Central Lobby in the mainly unaccompanied. In Greece there are estimated House of Commons, which was unveiled in 1999 and to be 2,800 children waiting for a place in a shelter, says: living in camps or on the streets—and conditions are “In deep gratitude to the people and Parliament of the United pretty awful. On Lesbos, which I visited, conditions Kingdom for saving the lives of 10,000 Jewish and other children are very depressing. I appreciate that the Greek authorities who fled to this country from Nazi persecution on the Kindertransport are doing their best, but they are not able to cope very 1938-1939”. well and they really need a bit more international help It is a big thank you that we rededicated about a year than they are getting—although I will say that refugees and a half ago in the presence of the Chief Rabbi, the in Athens are better placed than those on the islands. most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury In Zaatari camp in Jordan, where I was two and a half and the Speaker of the Commons. I was one of the to three weeks ago, physical conditions are better, but children who came under that scheme. if there is one characteristic feature of refugee camps The House of Lords Library has produced an that is most alarming it is the lack of hope. Even if excellent briefing on this, for which we should say physical conditions are depressing, where there is hope, thank you. It helps to inform our debates and it is a human beings can sustain themselves—children can. pretty good way of getting the debate started. But where there is no hope, it is absolutely depressing, The importance of 1938-39 is that, in under 12 months, and what I saw in the camps on Lesbos was a lack of Britain accepted 10,000 unaccompanied children. It hope. Even in Zaatari in Jordan, where the physical goes without saying that we are all familiar with Nicky conditions are better, because people are now in prefab Winton’s contribution to those who came from Prague. huts rather than in tents, there is still a lack of hope. He died about two years ago, but he made an enormous To date, our record is not wonderful. Under contribution: 669 children came from Czechoslovakia. Section 67—the amendment I moved—we have accepted Others came from Germany, Austria and I think some 280 unaccompanied child refugees from Europe. The from Poland. Government arbitrarily said that they would cap the I understand that the British Government set a number at 480. It was quite an arbitrary decision and I condition that children were to be aged 16 or under will refer to it in a moment. Then, under the Dublin and were to come to Britain strictly on the condition treaty we have taken about 800. That is the treaty that they would be emigrated when they reached 18. I whereby a child in one EU country can join relatives in say to the Government and the Home Office: I am still another: and 800 came from France and some from here. Greece to join relatives here. I am pleased to say that A couple of weeks ago we held a commemoration, Parliament passed an amendment to an earlier piece hosted jointly with Barbara Winton, daughter of Nicky of legislation to say that the Dublin III treaty should Winton, and arranged by Safe Passage at Friends be maintained even after Brexit. In other words, we House. We had a very distinguished group of people will go on acting as if we were members of that treaty, 515 Kindertransport Commemoration[LORDS] Kindertransport Commemoration 516

[LORD DUBS] by one vote last week. Northern Ireland is there waiting so we can still accept children from those countries—or, for the Government to respond and say, “Yes, something indeed, if they are here they can join relatives in other can be done”. EU countries. The crucial part of all this is public opinion. We must get public opinion onside. In 1938-39 public Then we had the vulnerable persons resettlement opinion was by and large supportive of child refugees. scheme, which the Government set up to take 20,000 I believe that the same is true today. Whatever the refugees—not just children—over five years. To this arguments and concerns around immigration, I believe were added 3,000 mainly children. I understand that that if it is put to the British people that we can do of the 3,000 mainly children we have had only about more for unaccompanied child refugees than we have 200 so far, although it was a government commitment. done until now, most British people will say, “Yes, we Maybe the figure is better than that and I hope that could. Yes, we should”. There is no public opinion to the Minister can reassure me on that. In the original be frightened of. I urge the Government to make a Section 67 the Government set the cap at 480 because positive contribution by responding to this debate in a it was alleged that local authorities did not have enough positive way. foster places for the children. I have to say that my evidence is different. Recently we have had pledges from local authorities offering 800 places, and even Lord Hylton (CB): Does the noble Lord have any before we asked for these pledges quite a number of estimate of the number of unaccompanied children local authorities said they were willing to come still wandering about somewhere on the continent, forward—so I am disappointed that the Government without any care or reception or anything? If he could have put on an arbitrary cap. Not that we have reached give that, it would stimulate the generosity of potential that figure; we are only just over half way there. fosterers and adopters in this country.

The answer is simple: we should keep the scheme Lord Dubs: My Lords, these figures are rough estimates going and accept unaccompanied child refugees at the but I understand that in 2017, 33,000 children—many same speed that local authorities come forward with unaccompanied—arrived in Europe. In Greece nearly places. It seems very easy and straightforward. There 3,000 children are currently waiting for a place in a is, however, a problem, which is funding for local shelter, living in camps or on the streets, in deplorable authorities. Some are finding it quite difficult because and dangerous conditions. There are also several hundred they get some money for the first year, after which the in France and an unknown number in Italy. going is much more difficult. So a little bit more funding would be extremely helpful. 5.56 pm I want to make one thing absolutely clear: I do not Lord Polak (Con): My Lords, I pay tribute to the argue and have never argued that Britain should take noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for securing the debate and all these unaccompanied child refugees—far from it. for all the work that he has done and continues to do. That would be unrealistic and not very helpful. I think If I may say so, we are all glad that he is still here. we should share responsibility with other countries. In preparation for my short contribution, I made Some other countries, such as Germany and Sweden, one visit and one phone call. The visit was to Dr Hilda have done a pretty good job. Some deny that refugees Cohen, a close friend of my wife’s family, who recently are anything to do with them, such as the Hungarians. celebrated her 90th birthday. I visited her on Friday They say that refugees are not their problem and they morning because as a 10 year-old girl she was sent on are interested only in white Christians—which is really the Kindertransport to the UK. She brought Kristallnacht not in keeping with the best humanitarian traditions to life for me. She talked of the flames, the burning of Europe. So we should share responsibility and in a and the destruction of her own synagogue in Frankfurt sense my plea in this debate is not just to the Government on the night of Wednesday 9 November 1938. Just two but to all European countries, as well as to Northern days later, her father was taken away from the family Ireland and the Crown dependencies. Shabbat table.Incredibly,Hilda recalled that the discussion I will say a quick word about Northern Ireland. was more about whether or not her father should take There are people in Northern Ireland who have said to a suitcase with him as it was forbidden to carry in the me that they are quite willing to take child refugees. public domain on the Sabbath. He was held for a The issue has got stuck on whether there is a power for month but was then returned to the family—probably, Northern Ireland to take unaccompanied child refugees she recalled, due to the fact that he had received an under Section 67 in the absence of an Executive. Iron Cross for his service in World War I. In July 1939 Opinions vary on this, and I understand that the Hilda was taken by her parents to Frankfurt station. Government are looking into it to see whether it might They were not a kissing and hugging family but Hilda be possible. I cannot see for the life of me why Northern recalled, some 80 years later, that there was kissing Ireland should not be able to take refugees: I am not and hugging as she left with a small bag containing sure what the Executive would have to do with it. I her prayer book, her Bible, some silver ladles and a deeply regret that there is no Executive there, but I do few photos. That, of course, was the last day she saw think we could make progress there and that the her parents and brother. The story is all too familiar. people of Northern Ireland would like to go ahead. On 3 September 1939, Hilda, aged 11, found herself The issue has also been raised with the Crown in Merthyr in south Wales, and she was looked after dependencies and they are thinking about it—although by a childless couple who showed her selfless kindness. the Isle of Man defeated a proposal to take refugees Hilda went on to study medicine. She became a doctor 517 Kindertransport Commemoration[26 NOVEMBER 2018] Kindertransport Commemoration 518 and worked for many years in the blood transfusion I would be glad to have clarification from the unit. She became a Cardiff city councillor and a JP Minister on one very practical point. Families are serving on the Bench in south Wales for more than psychologically crucial to the developing and maturing 40 years. Serving the community and doing for others, child. Can we really not become more imaginative Hilda has been an inspiration. She has three children about the arrangements that can be made to enable and 16 grandchildren and is expecting her 10th great- some relatives—at least one—to come and join a child grandchild imminently.Hilda’s story is about the selfless who has made it to the UK? This could have a tremendous kindness of the host family and the generous decision impact on the future of the child and on their well-being of the Government of the day. and security. At the moment, the Government take the line that this would only encourage still more to come, That sense of community led me to the phone call, but I have seen no evidence whatever for this. If the which I made yesterday.I called the renowned playwright Government are going to take that hard line, they Diane Samuels, who was in my class in school in really must produce the evidence of why it is the case. I Liverpool. Diane wrote the play “Kindertransport”, am much more concerned about the child and the which was first performed here in the UK in 1993. I child’s future. That demands action on that front. recommend it to those noble Lords who may not have seen it. Diane cited three reasons for writing that play, It is great that my noble friend Lord Dubs has which she published. The first was that she saw a taken this action and has had so much support from friend, whose father had been on the Kindertransport, across the House for doing so, but we live in the reality struggling with the concept of survival. The second of the world as it is. We talk so much here about was when she heard another friend being shocked to immigration, and we do not talk enough about the find out that his mother was in Auschwitz—he did not huge global issue of migration. With the help of the know this all his life. The third reason was the admission Library, I have dug out some statistics. At the moment, of another woman in her fifties, who had come on the in the world there are 19,941,347 refugees, 3,090,898 Kindertransport, and had expressed a feeling of rage asylum seekers and 39,118,516 internally displaced at her dead parents who had abandoned her, even people. If we are struck by and compelled to respond though that abandonment had led to the saving of to the situation in Europe that confronts us and the her life. distressing scenes that we have all witnessed, we must remember that those distressing scenes are being repeated These are challenging issues but on the call yesterday, all over the world on an almost unimaginable scale. I reminded Diane that as young teenagers in Liverpool This is a tremendous humanitarian challenge, of course, we and our friends were inspired by Stanley Morris of but it is also a security challenge, because I do not see the Shifrin Foundation. This was an educational drama how we can have a peaceful, stable world if we have group that played a huge part in our upbringing and that number of people being stunted in their upbringing, taught us a massive sense of community. Diane was a frustrated and so on because many are extremely able, superstar then, as she is today. intelligent people who feel completely excluded, and that will not lead to a peaceful world. For me, the 80th anniversary of the Kindertransport We have heard a Statement this afternoon about the is a reminder of acts of kindness and bravery, a latest developments on the European Union. I am commitment to one’s fellows and a striving for a better deeply disappointed that when we talk about the political world. It is the inspiring story of Hilda and the educational declaration, we talk in theoretical, analytical terms creativity of Diane that give me hope for a better about the things that we need to do structurally in this future. situation, but what are we doing to address the issues 6.01 pm that confront us around the globe morally and security- wise? Please can we hear some specific language about Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, I must say that I am a how we can, by whatever arrangements we make, do personal friend of my noble friend Lord Dubs and if something more effective, together with our partners there is one person whom we should mention in our in Europe, to meet those challenges? debate today, it is Lady Dubs. When my noble friend has been so frantically and tirelessly committed, she has given him stalwart support throughout the whole 6.08 pm enterprise. Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD): My Lords, I too It is important that when we are confronted with appreciate the opportunity to join the noble Lord, issues such as this, we do not just agonise but do Lord Dubs, and others in this debate. At the moment, something. When something can be done, we should we are particularly busy with Syrian refugees, youngsters do it; my noble friend Lord Dubs has illustrated that and so on, and with the kids of the Yemen and so this is true. But the best way in which we can honour many others in the world, yet there is one place that those who were courageous enough to stand up and really stirs my heart, and that is Yad Vashem in organise the transport for those who were able to Jerusalem. It is the memorial to the 6 million Jewish come—the best tribute—is to remember those who people who were slaughtered in Hitler’s Germany. Of were not able to come: the millions who died in the that number, 1.5 million were children. When you go concentration camps and the Holocaust. We should into that memorial, you hear the voices of kids, you also recommit ourselves to an overriding drive to see the lights representing every child there. Their ensure that such things cannot happen again. We must names are not John, Philip, David or Roger. They are work effectively and internationally to deal with the the names of children who were still children even causes of what we were confronted with in the 1930s. though they had different names. 519 Kindertransport Commemoration[LORDS] Kindertransport Commemoration 520

[LORD ROBERTS OF LLANDUDNO] I suggest that if we want a memorial to the Everywhere people ask me, “Who do you support?” Kindertransport of 80 years ago, the best one would I support anybody who works with children. It is be a new attitude and for us to show renewed care. children we need. Whatever the child’s nationality, it is That is a memorial that would change people and it is not his fault. It is not his fault that he might be Welsh; what I would like to see us, as a Parliament and as a he is just born. Wehave an opportunity and an obligation people, embracing. I am grateful for the opportunity to help any child anywhere, of any religion or nationality. to take part in this debate. Weshould look to them and say,“Weare your guardians, your brothers, your sisters, your uncles and aunts”. 6.15 pm When I was a lad—I was, once—I remember going to the Palace Cinema in Conwy in 1945. It was a good The Lord Bishop of Durham: My Lords, I add my cinema, although it is closed now. There we saw the thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for securing this newsreels showing the release of the folk who had debate and for all he does as the living embodiment in been detained in the camps. I will never forget those this House of the Kindertransport legacy. It was also human scarecrows who could hardly move and the my privilege to be present at the event at the Friends’ others who had long given up any hope of moving. meeting house a couple of weeks ago, which was I said, “This must not happen again”. That is why I deeply inspiring. became a Methodist minister and I think it is why In 1939, as a 10 year-old refugee, Paul Willer and I took part in politics: to try to build a world where his family were quietly sponsored to come to the UK every child could have an opportunity and we could by the then leader of the Opposition. The Attlees’ treat them with great respect and regard. hospitality provokes us to consider both wider community However, it has happened again. Various numbers responses to welcoming strangers and government have been mentioned, such as 39 million people without plans. My first question is: what will each of us do in homes in the world, and there are scores of thousands our communities to commemorate the hospitality of who are starving or casualties of war. It must not those who went before? happen again. We tighten immigration controls but When we concern ourselves solely with what the the people and the need are all still there. We can close Government should do about asylum and the the borders but the children in need are still there. resettlement of refugees, the focus becomes too narrow. When we tighten immigration controls, we are doing Disproportionate attention is given to questions of something that continues that desperate need. Children affordability and enforcement. They are not where have been mentioned on Lesbos and among the 4 million discussion should begin. Any action to welcome and people in camps in Turkey. We have an opportunity to integrate refugees must be a whole society effort, in change that. You do not change by building walls; you which the Government play a crucial part, but only change by changing people’s hearts. We do not change one part. by saying, “We’re going to pull up the drawbridge”; British Future and HOPE not hate’s recent national instead, we change people’s hearts and lives and the conversation on immigration gives us a rigorous evidence approach towards them. base for the singular importance of one’slocal experience My great day of despair in this House was when we in shaping how we view wider policy questions about were discussing the amendment by the noble Lord, integration and immigration. Local consent is crucial. Lord Dubs, to bring in 3,000 children from Syria. I When it comes to doing more for unaccompanied will never forget seeing the troops going into the No minors, the will, even if sometimes fragile, is there. Lobby. That hurt me very much and it did not help This predominant view is well expressed by one anyone. Now we have maybe between 200 and 400 of participant at the Durham panel of those conversations, those children in this country instead of 3,000. We who said: could have accommodated them—of course we could. “We do need immigration, and we also need compassion as I come originally from Llanrwst in the Conwy Valley, well, for people who need refuge. I think it should be controlled and I remember the day in 1940 when the buses came but it should be controlled with a heart, but not some open door bringing evacuees from some of the English cities. policy”. People might think, “You can’t remember that! You Since September 2015, the charity Home for Good were only a little nipper!”, but I will never forget the has had 14,000 people register their interest in becoming kids coming off those buses and being accepted with a foster carer for an unaccompanied asylum-seeking love by people in those communities. With that situation child. Of course, not all will be suitable, but many in mind, I wept at the sight of Peers walking through would. The way that Home for Good works means the No Lobby. We chose to build a wall. that behind each name is a person embedded in a We are going to face even greater problems in the series of communities and institutions who would future, such as Yemen or Bangladesh. Then there is support them. global warming, which could have a terrible impact on Meeting community sponsorship groups, I have the prosperous maize fields of Africa and destroy so seen the remarkable depth of skills and assets that much. It could leave many people looking for sustenance groups can leverage to resettle and welcome refugee and hope, and they will be trying to find welcome in families.There is then the sheer ingenuity and commitment various places. Are we preparing for them? Do we that foster carers and community sponsors who care have any strategy, or will we just say, “Come on, let’s for vulnerable children demonstrate daily. The salient build another wall”? We could do that, but that is question is how, not if, the Government harness and simply saying, “Look after yourselves. We’re not going develop the compassion and capacity already there in to stretch out to greet you”. communities across the UK. 521 Kindertransport Commemoration[26 NOVEMBER 2018] Kindertransport Commemoration 522

Finding an answer will require courage, imagination gas chambers in July 1944. Hanus’s aunt, Babette and collaboration. This is exemplified in the success of Pollak, was possibly also on the platform to say goodbye the VPRS scheme and in community-based pilots to her talented teenage nephew. She and Hanus’s such as that at Yarl’s Wood. In the context of this uncle, Pavel, and their daughter, Zdenka, shared the debate, all three virtues have been in evidence at the same address as his maternal grandmother, Anna. Home Office, particularly in the work of Paul Morrison Tragically,they also shared the same ultimate destination. and his directorate, to whom I pay respect. There Although, of course,the family members who gathered remain many questions about the current approach to at Prague station that June day would have been resettlement, asylum and migration, but there is much gripped by a deep sense of foreboding, could any one to cheer. of them have foreseen the full extent of the Nazis’ Working out how the UK can best offer welcome to murderous, racist intent? No. But 80 years on, we have more of the most vulnerable children in the world will no such excuse. For if the Holocaust teaches us anything, be a complex conversation. As it was 80 years ago, it it is surely that we now know how far and how fast will be difficult and costly.However, in pushing forward, humanity is capable of falling and how important it is we will be doing the right thing. always to remember and learn from that very painful The Church of England—as, I know, do other faith lesson. communities—stands ready to work with the Minister I hope that my noble friend the Minister will agree to design a scheme to facilitate the expanded welcome that there could be no more fitting commemoration of and flourishing of these children. Will the Minister both the Kindertransport and those who did not commit to a further deepening of engagement with escape to safety than a renewed commitment, by all civil society and businesses to create a fully rounded parties, to combat the racism that is anti-Semitism. way forward to ensure that we take an increased number of such children? Eighty years on from the 6.25 pm Kindertransport, we stand in the legacy that was marked both by local acts and national leadership. It Baroness Henig (Lab): My Lords, I also congratulate is clear that the only appropriate commemoration is to my noble friend Lord Dubs, not just on securing this go and do likewise. It is now our turn. debate but on all the work he has done over the years helping refugees, refugee children and their families. My Aunt Alice, whom I never had the opportunity to 6.20 pm know, faced an agonising dilemma after Kristallnacht Lord Shinkwin (Con): My Lords, I too thank the in Germany in 1938: should she put her two young noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for securing this debate. I sons on the Kindertransport scheme and send them should declare a personal interest in what we are away from danger? She made that heart-breaking decision commemorating today. I am an indirect beneficiary of and, a year or two later, found herself, her husband the Kindertransport. Had Hanus Weisl, the teenager and a new baby son trapped in an overcrowded ghetto who would become my orthopaedic surgeon, not made in northern Germany, where they all soon died from it on to the last train out of Prague before the Nazis typhus fever. Her sons, my cousins, were by then safe closed the border in June 1939, the chances are I and settled in the United Kingdom. The real question would not have made it here to your Lordships’ House. is, surely, why Alice and her husband, along with It was due, in large part, to his expert care between many thousands of other Jews, could not leave with birth and 13 that I had the best possible medical start them. The Nazi Government were happy for them to to life. leave, but they could not take money or possessions. So today I speak with gratitude and with a sense of They needed a visa to go to another country, a sponsor, debt, as someone who, like him, would have been a job offer or access to funds abroad. For many, this regarded by the Nazis as Untermensch or subhuman. was impossible to organise. For both Hanus Weisl and I would have been destined My father found one solution to this. In 1936, for extermination—he for being Jewish, I for being hearing from a friend that the Gestapo was after him, disabled, as part of the Nazis’ Aktion T4 programme. he drew out all his savings, taped them to the underside I think of him and his parents who also miraculously of his car, and drove across the German-Dutch border, escaped. But I speak, as many other noble Lords have telling the guard that he was on a business trip.Fortunately, done, with a sense of sadness as well, because I think the border guard did not examine the car in any way of those who did not escape—those family members and waved him across the border. Once safely in who probably waved Hanus off that summer’s day, Holland, he applied for political asylum and was none of whom would survive the Holocaust. granted it. However, so many people found themselves Thanks to the remarkable Wiener Library, which trapped in Germany—a country whose venomous was founded by Dr Alfred Wiener, the grandfather of attacks against them grew ever more lethal. As noble my noble friend Lord Finkelstein, I can not only put Lords have heard, as the 1930s went on fewer and names to those family members. I know what journeys fewer countries offered them a way out. they themselves made. It is probable that Anna Weisl, Against this background, saving 10,000 Jewish children Hanus’s maternal grandmother, was on the platform was undoubtedly a great achievement, but the British that day. Within four years, her journey would take Government’s role was decidedly minimal. They issued her from her home, which still stands today at Klatovy, the vital visas and facilitated entry for the children, but to Auschwitz via Theresienstadt. She arrived at her the people we should really celebrate are the religious final destination on 15 December—which is in just groups—mainly Jewish and Quaker—which raised the over a fortnight’s time. She probably perished in the funds and shouldered most of the administration of 523 Kindertransport Commemoration[LORDS] Kindertransport Commemoration 524

[BARONESS HENIG] anti-Semitism and hatred of other minorities, we must the scheme, the families who took in the children and not become too self-congratulatory or slip into a the sponsors who liaised with them. My cousins were sentimental nostalgia. Overwhelmingly, people actively brought up by a family in Reading, but never lost collaborated or remained silent. Kindertransport saved touch with their sponsors, the Sainsbury family. My the lives of an estimated 10,000 children, each and elder cousin, on leaving school, went to work in every one of them precious. But never forget that the Sainsbury’s. When he later told Lord Sainsbury that Nazis and their collaborators killed as many as 1.5 million he really wanted to become a journalist, he was helped children—including over a million Jewish children—who with that too. The sponsors played a major role in the are commemorated at the Children’s Memorial at Yad scheme. Vashem, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts The reason for that was the Government’s view that of Llandudno, which I too have visited. They also the children must not be a burden on the public purse. murdered tens of thousands of Romany children, Thanks to the organisers, host families and sponsors, German children with physical and mental disabilities—a they were not. Reading the House of Commons debate point alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin—and from 1938 about the plight of Jewish refugees—which children from Poland and occupied Soviet territory. the Library briefing helpfully made available—was a Six million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust, and depressing experience, because little has changed most Kindertransport children would never see their in the intervening 80 years. Governments are as parents again. unaccommodating as ever. People are sympathetic, In 1938, after visiting the harsh, freezing conditions but not to the point of doing anything concrete to refugee camps in Sudetenland, and following help. Sir Samuel Hoare’s warning in that 1938 debate Kristallnacht, Nicholas Winton decided to do something rings even truer now than it did then: that there is an, about it. Weeks later,he saw the first 200 Kindertransport “underlying current of suspicion … rightly or wrongly, about children arrive at Harwich. They included many who alien immigration on any big scale”.—[Official Report, Commons, would become notable and illustrious citizens, including 21/11/1938; col. 1468.] four Nobel laureates, and Members of your Lordships’ Are we challenging it? Quite the contrary; we are now House. asked to clamp down even on the freedom of movement When the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, moved his that currently exists. Yet those refugees and immigrants amendment to receive some of today’s fleeing refugee who have made it into the UK since the 1930s are children, I was honoured to be one of the other among the most patriotic of our people. It was the signatories. But to be clear, according to Safe Passage, proudest day of my father’s life when he became a only 220 of the 480 places to be provided under the British citizen. These people are patriotic—they want scheme put forward by the noble Lord have been to join and to be in Britain, and it is so difficult for filled. Like the noble Lord, I would be grateful if, people to get here. when the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, Philip Noel-Baker was absolutely right to say in the comes to reply, he would clarify whether that still 1938 debate that the refugee problem could not be remains the case. Meanwhile, Safe Passage also says solved by private charity. It could not then and it that the Vulnerable Children Resettlement Scheme for cannot now. Only concerted action by states or unaccompanied children in conflict zones has given international bodies can tackle the issue with any just 20 unaccompanied children resettlement, out of success. In the next 30 to 50 years, the movement of 3,000 places. As it also points out, UK-funded detention individuals fleeing oppression, war and poverty will be centres in Libya are places of torture and abuse of one of the most pressing issues we will all have to face. children. Perhaps when the Minister comes to reply he We cannot keep ignoring it. We cannot just keep can respond to what Safe Passage says about that. fishing desperate refugees out of the Channel and the Elsewhere, children of Christians and Ahmadis fleeing Mediterranean and returning them to north Africa, or from Pakistan are kept like caged animals in detention wherever. Can the Minister say what our plan is as a centres. In 2015, I visited one of those detention country, to learn from the heart-rending experiences centres, and in 2016, I wrote a report about it. Recently, of the past and to deal with this most pressing of many of your Lordships have raised the continuing human issues? systematic persecution of minorities in Pakistan—the reason why people are fleeing in the first place. Children 6.30 pm were forced to watch as a mob of 1,300 burned their parents alive in a kiln in Kot Rada Kishan in Pakistan. Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, there is no Meanwhile, a mother of five, Asia Bibi, remains at one better to have opened tonight’s debate than the risk of her life in Pakistan while we refuse to give her noble Lord, Lord Dubs. or her children asylum and repeatedly say that minorities The 80th anniversary of Kindertransport prompts in Pakistan do not face persecution, but simply the question: what would Sir Nicholas Winton, Trevor discrimination. Only today I have received a letter Chadwick, Florence Nankivell, Doreen Warriner,Beatrice from the Prime Minister, who says: Wellington, and others involved in organising escape “You asked whether the UK would be willing to offer Asia routes for children threatened by Nazism, make of our Bibi and her family asylum in the UK. It is the long standing present-day response to refugees and their children policy of the Government not to comment on individual immigration and to new ideologies and new forms of violence? issues”. While we are right to praise the singular individuals— This is not just an immigration case. This is a woman heroes like Bonhoeffer, Kolbe, Schindler, Frank Foley who was falsely held in prison for some nine years, and Raoul Wallenberg—who all refused to accommodate and who has been acquitted by the Supreme Court. 525 Kindertransport Commemoration[26 NOVEMBER 2018] Kindertransport Commemoration 526

This is a woman on behalf of whom the former community is the best of British; it has enriched this Governor of the Punjab, a Muslim, Salman Taseer, country and provided positive role-models for all and his friend, a Christian Minister for Minorities, immigrants, including the British Indian community, Shahbaz Bhatti, both spoke out—and were murdered who look to the Jewish community for inspiration. for doing so. It is not a run-of-the-mill immigration Like my Jewish friends, a large number of East case; it is something about which the Government African Indians were welcomed to this country when should speak. I was deeply concerned to read in the they were no longer welcome in their own home Sunday newspapers—whether this is accurate others because they were cast as “different”. Like the Jews in must decide, but I would welcome the Minister’s 1930s Europe, British Indians in 1970s East Africa response—that both the Foreign Secretary and the were singled out as scapegoats for society’s ills, and, as Home Secretary had been overruled by Downing Street in the Jewish experience, many of my own people who in wanting to provide asylum for Asia Bibi. Just as our were refused safe passage to other countries faced a Government refuse to recognise that minorities in terrible fate. However, the Jews were victims of the northern Iraq and Syria have been subjected to genocide, darkest chapter in humanity’s history: the Holocaust. I fear that we have done precisely the same in this case We learned from the Jewish community in the UK that concerning Pakistan. I hope that we will look seriously no matter how great the obstacles, how challenging at our asylum policies so that we can make better the circumstances or how painful the past, the future judgments in the future. is yours, and yours alone, to shape. The three greatest The noble Baroness, Lady Henig, referred to the lessons that I learned from that community in my 1938 debate. Like her, I have read what Sir Samuel early days in the UK were these: be grateful for the Hoare, the then Home Secretary, had to say in that opportunities you have been given; do not bear grudges debate on 21 November. The remarkable Philip Noel- or grievances; and never, ever take your freedom for Baker, in his opening speech, called for a co-ordinated granted. plan and said that, Those precepts are important because they forge a “a co-ordinated plan means a strong international administration path to integration. We should recognise that Jewish to carry it through”.—[Official Report, Commons, 21/11/1938; people did not integrate after they succeeded; they col.1439] were successful precisely because they integrated. They In reply, the Home Secretary said: did not see themselves as Jews who happened to live in “How can a question remain exclusively domestic when it Britain but as British Jews whose first loyalty was to involves scores of thousands of men, women and children, destitute the country that granted them protection. With loyalty and penniless, seeking admission into other countries? … however deep may be our sympathies, this problem is, and must remain, an comes responsibility. Jewish people embraced British international problem. No single country can hope to solve values and worked hard because they knew that no it”.—[Official Report, Commons, 21/11/1938; col.1464] amount of charity and sympathy would substitute the That remains the challenge today and I hope it is a rewards of self-reliance—and by that I do not mean challenge to which the Government will rise. individual riches but the rewards to be had from benefiting the whole of society. Reading the speeches of the day is deeply moving because this issue seems to have come back around. The number of Kindertransport children who went What Nicholas Winton said however, is perhaps what on to have distinguished careers is staggering. My should inform us all: noble friend Lord Shinkwin mentioned the refugee “If something is not impossible, then there must be a way to who came as a Kindertransport child and became an do it”. orthopaedic surgeon, in many ways saving his life. These refugees became not only scientists but pioneers of science; not only lawyers but campaigners for justice; 6.38 pm and not only teachers but education leaders. If this is the contribution of 10,000 lives, imagine what the Lord Popat (Con): My Lords, I too thank the noble world lost from the 6 million souls who perished in the Lord, Lord Dubs, for initiating this debate. It is a Holocaust. It brings to mind a passage from a Jewish chance to reflect on what the Kindertransport programme prayer recited on Yom Kippur, which includes the symbolises still today: Britain’s moral courage in the words, face of injustice; Britain’s compassion for people who suffer; and Britain’s belief in opportunity for all. These “our hearts grow cold as we think of the splendour that might values are the very definition of what it means to be have been”. British and we would do well to remember and honour To this day, the former refugees maintain a deep that. sense of gratitude and determination to give back to I also pay tribute to the moral courage of those the country that gave them a chance at a new life, and I families who sent their most precious possessions—their know that many British Indians cast themselves in the children—to the UK in the hope and faith that they same light. Yes, we are proud of our heritage and would find a better future. We heard Hilda’s story bonded to our customs and traditions, but first and from my noble friend Lord Polak. I cannot begin to foremost we are British. We are lucky to be British and imagine the agony suffered by those parents who faced we want to do the best for our country. the cruellest of choices and made the greatest of It pains me that we are commemorating this milestone sacrifices, never knowing when or if their families at a time when Jewish people feel under threat, when would be reunited. Most were not. What I do know is we are seeing a backlash against immigrants in a that those refugees, like many who came before and climate of rising intolerance, and when millions of after them, grew up to be exemplary citizens. The Jewish people around the world continue to suffer persecution. 527 Kindertransport Commemoration[LORDS] Kindertransport Commemoration 528

[LORD POPAT] when Angela Merkel addressed the Knesset, she got a We must never lose sight of the compassion and standing ovation. It is hard to believe, but in recent humanity that this country stands for. The Kinder- polls in Israel, Germany came out as the most popular transport legacy lives on through us all, and it is our foreign country. responsibility to unite behind it, now and in the years All that is very positive, and it is because of the to come. efforts of individual Members of this House,of politicians elsewhere and of government officials. I am glad that 6.43 pm the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, is replying today, because Lord Dykes (CB): My Lords, all noble Lords have he is a thoughtful and constructive Minister. We look begun their speech with a justified tribute to the noble forward to his reply and, I hope, to his responses to the Lord, Lord Dubs, for the work that he has done. He is points made by the noble Lords, Lord Alton and Lord our moral leader in these matters and our provider of Dubs, about Britain helping more in the global matter detailed information on the plight of refugees. We of refugees. thank him for his unstinting work in doing this and for The second major point of pride for me as MP for never giving up. The hesitations of government are Harrow is that, in 1987, we had the 50th anniversary one of the features that apply in every country, but the of the Kindertransport in Harrow, with Tim Renton, noble Lord carries on with this work and he has done the then Minister of State at the Home Office,representing so well. We thank him again for that and for initiating the Government. It was a very moving occasion to see this debate. the gathering of the survivors of that Kindertransport. I was Member of Parliament for Harrow East for By then, some were very successful people—some 27 years, and every day I felt very proud of being the were foolishly living in Palm Beach rather than in a MP for that delightful area of north-west London. respectable part of Florida—and they came from all Because I am following the noble Lord, Lord Popat, I over Britain, and from everywhere else, too. It was a remember with great pride the moment when Ted great occasion, when we celebrated the survival of Heath’s Government decided to designate Harrow those who came because the Government and citizens and Leicester as the two main red-star centres to demanded humanity in response to people facing such receive East African refugees escaping from Idi Amin. a dreadful plight. I have to say that we did have trouble from certain I think also of the brave people in the occupied hard-faced people in the constituency—I will not say territories held by the Nazis, and indeed in Germany who—who did not like the idea at all. We insisted that itself, who helped and sheltered Jews. In Germany and they were coming and that we would accept 1,000 people other places, it was a capital offence to do that. You to start with. The noble Lord, Lord Popat, was one of had to be very brave to do so, and a lot of people were. those who came, as we have discussed in debates That shows that humanity does come together when before. I thank him for the contribution he has made there are real exigencies, as the noble Lord, Lord in the House to these matters as well as to many Shinkwin, mentioned in the very moving cases he others. described. It shows that we need to open our hearts When those Asians came to Harrow, it became a more about refugees and not have this rather hard much more dynamic place even than it already was. It attitude, which worries me, as it does the noble Lord, was certainly dynamic without them, but with them Lord Roberts, who talked about people not having a coming, there was an extra élan in social and economic humanitarian response to those whose plight is grotesque, activity. We were forever grateful that they came, with particularly those in the Middle East, from north their learning, experience, knowledge and business Africa and elsewhere. That is not just important but acumen—all of which were so important. primordial—the way that a civilised and wealthy country with our resources can respond appropriately in the The noble Lord, Lord Popat, is sitting next to the future. noble Lord, Lord Polak. I remember with great pride that we worked together in the House of Commons, where he did unstinting and wonderful work for the 6.48 pm Jewish community in Britain. We worked for Soviet Lord Beecham (Lab): My Lords, this has been an Jewry, with Greville Janner and others, and to promote exceptionally moving debate. As the grandson and the good cause of the Jewish community. great-grandson of people who sought refuge in this There is a quarterly English-language newspaper in country in the late 19th century to escape the hostile Germany, the Jewish Voice from Germany, which I environment in which the Jewish communities of eastern read avidly. I have contributed some pieces, and, in Europe struggled to live normal lives, I of course share one article, the question from the editor was: what has the profound sympathy for those children who, unlike been the contribution of the Jewish community in those who were saved by escaping to the United Kingdom Britain? I answered that it had been just magnificent. via the Kindertransport, perished in the Holocaust. That has been the case over the centuries, because they I congratulate my noble friend Lord Dubs—himself, were here many years ago, too, but also more recently as we have heard and know, a beneficiary of the it has been a wonderful thing. Kindertransport who has been a truly powerful advocate As a European enthusiast, it gives me great pride to for decades for those in most need of safety and remind this House that, in Germany now, the Jewish support—on securing this debate. It is right to celebrate community has become reinstated and is sizable and what was done 80 years ago, an anniversary recently growing, not only in Berlin, Dusseldorf and other big marked by the revelation, as we have heard from the cities but all over the country. It was great to see that, right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, that 529 Kindertransport Commemoration[26 NOVEMBER 2018] Kindertransport Commemoration 530

Clement Attlee, then leader of the Opposition, took 6.53 pm a young Kindertransport boy into his home, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry characteristically without seeking any publicity for his of Housing, Communities and Local Government and action. Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con): My The world has seen and, alas, continues to see too Lords, I am pleased to respond to this debate. I thank much young, innocent blood spilled with ruthless the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for securing it, for all the indifference in wars between and within countries— work that he has done in this important area over the sometimes in the name of religion or nationality, but years and for being such an outstanding example of always with shameless disregard for human life and the Kinder—which helps ensure that people take this well-being. Think of Syria, with 500,000 dead and issue seriously, as of course they should and must. millions displaced, or the conditions now faced by As noble Lords have indicated, this is part of a 1 million Rohingya in Myanmar. Often, people flee much broader issue.The commemoration of Kristallnacht not only from the brutality of war but from the and Kindertransport 80 years on is crucially important, hardships engendered by poverty, hunger and disease, but it is part of a much broader and ever more or in search of the freedom to practise their own faith, challenging problem, not just for the United Kingdom or to escape regimes that deny freedom of thought but for the world, in terms of the displacement of and speech, ruthlessly dividing the societies they purport people. I fear we are going to see this on an increasing to govern. How we react to the problems faced by scale, not just because of war but also because of these innocent victims is a measure of our claims to famine and problems associated with climate change. uphold human rights and needs to be assessed at Despite the hallmark conference in Paris at the end of international, national and local levels. 2015, this is going to remain a massive and increasing Much has been said about our national policy but I challenge because of some countries failing to meet want to report briefly, as an illustration, on the situation the expectations and the promises that were made in my own city of Newcastle. Just as members of my then. That is the point I would start by making. And, family settled there 130 years ago, some 64 families, since the awful events of the Holocaust and the Second comprising 267 individuals, of whom 145 are children— World War, genocides around the world have not the majority escaping the carnage and horrors of Syria stopped; far from it. —have been resettled in the city by the city council, Yesterday I had the privilege of opening the new with a commitment to resettle another 27 families by Bosnian community centre in Birmingham. Bosnian the end of the current scheme in 2020. The numbers British people were there from around the country. also include families from Sudan, Iraq and Eritrea. This country has a proud record of having taken Further, children’s social care is currently supporting 10,000 Bosnian Muslim refugees, many of whom faced eight unaccompanied asylum-seeking children, out of issues very similar to those that were confronting a total of 20 anticipated from 11 countries, who are people in Nazi Germany, so I was particularly keen to now considered care leavers, having attained the age of be there. Those people, as has been rightly said of 16. In addition, the council is discussing with the other people who have settled in this country, were Home Office arrangements to receive six more Eritrean incredibly proud of Britain and their part in Britain, unaccompanied asylum-seeking children over the age and regard it quite rightly as their home. of 16, who are currently in France,under the arrangements I am also, before Christmas, visiting the National secured by my noble friend Lord Dubs under Section 67 Holocaust Centre and Museum in Newark, where I of the Immigration Act. This, of course, will be mirrored am particularly keen to see the Ruth David photographic in many other towns and cities. collection. Ruth came across on the Kindertransport, However, while the council receives financial support so both of those visits tie in with what we have been from the Government for these asylum seekers, it looking at today. receives no such support for the 1,062 asylum seekers Other noble Lords have mentioned things specifically housed by G4S and its subcontractor Jomast, whose related to the 80th anniversary of Kristallnacht and performance in this area has given rise to concerns the Kindertransport; the meeting at the Friends’meeting about the quality of the accommodation and the house for instance. I had the great privilege—my noble number of people housed under a single roof. Have friend Lord Shinkwin was also there—of being at the the Government made any estimate of the cost to St John’s Wood synagogue when the great musician local authorities, schools and the NHS of support for Friederike Fechner was playing; there I had the these large groups and, if not, will they do so as an opportunity, as I was sitting next to her, of discussing addition to their impending review of unaccompanied this issue with Dame Esther Rantzen, who has been asylum-seeking children funding, an important but mentioned already. I think we should mark the massive discrete issue? What efforts are the Government making work that she has done and continues to do in this to diversify the distribution of asylum seekers and area: an outstanding contribution. displaced children across the country so that the cost It is also important to mention our own UK Holocaust of supporting these unfortunate people and assisting Memorial and Learning Centre, which I know noble their assimilation into local communities is fairly shared? Lords are committed to, which will be going up next The record so far is encouraging, but in the world to Parliament. Work continues on that project, led by we now live in, in which racism is apparently on the Ed Balls and my noble friend Lord Pickles. We are rise—not least in eastern Europe, Italy and the White now at the stage of talking about the content there, House—the spirit of the Kindertransport needs to which will obviously be focusing on the Holocaust but be rekindled. also on subsequent genocides that have occurred in 531 Kindertransport Commemoration[LORDS] Kindertransport Commemoration 532

[LORD BOURNE OF ABERYSTWYTH] My noble friend Lord Shinkwin spoke about his the world, so it will be a very important centre for personal interest in his very moving speech about the education and for people to visit next to the seat of importance of continuing commitment. I quite agree our democracy. with him. I will now say something about the important issues The noble Baroness, Lady Henig, treated us to that were raised in relation to ongoing settlement here some personal, moving reminiscences about her position for refugees, and try to provide some of the information and that of her family. She said, quite rightly, that this that was sought. In so far as I cannot do so now, I will cannot be solved through private action alone. I think ensure that that information is forthcoming—in relation she would accept that private action is important, but particularly to the numbers of people who are here so is governmental action; I accept that. I will seek, and so on—but let me see what I can do in relation to perhaps in a letter, to say where we are precisely on the the figures. These are the latest figures I have, which numbers and how we expect to meet targets on the are as at June this year. In relation to the Middle East other numbers. and north Africa vulnerable children resettlement scheme, The noble Lord, Lord Alton, raised several issues. I 883 have settled out of the 3,000 commitment. The want to take up the particular point about Asia Bibi; MENA scheme is just children; the Syrian scheme is clearly, that case is of great importance. I will tread broader. Again as of June, for the Syrian scheme carefully because I am not quite sure where we are on 12,851 have been resettled and the commitment is for that, but I know that our chief concern is that she and 20,000 to be settled by 2020, so we believe we are on those close to her are protected. If I may, I will cover target. Those are the latest figures I have. where we are on that issue and what we will seek to do The noble Lord, Lord Judd, asked about families. I in a letter. have been told by officials—I will confirm this in a My noble friend Lord Popat has led similar debates letter—that both schemes are open to family members in the past and speaks with great personal integrity so that they can be with the children. Clearly, the and compassion. He has contributed massively to Syrian scheme would be so because it is not limited to society and sets an excellent example. I thank him very children but I will confirm this in relation to the other much for his intervention. I also thank the noble Lord, scheme to ensure that we are right. Lord Dykes, who spoke about his partnership with my The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, asked about the position noble friend in Harrow East. They both have strong in Northern Ireland. I am told that the scheme is being connections there. I thank the noble Lord for his kind operated there in the absence of the Executive. Again, words, especially those about Ted Heath’s Government, I will confirm that, but that is the advice I have been who did so much for the resettlement of Ugandan given. My noble friend Lord Polak talked about the Asians. importance of remembering the acts of kindness and bravery exhibited, as well as ensuring that they are Looking back, we are always proud of what we did carried forward. I quite agree. but perhaps feel that we should have done more. We should always ask the question: could we have done I know that this subject is close to the heart of the more? Almost inevitably the answer will be yes. Obviously noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno—perhaps this is well beyond my pay grade and not in the more than any other. He spoke with great authority on department that I sit in, but I will ensure that the the global challenges we face. That leads us to reflect Home Office is made aware of the sentiments here and on the importance of the global leadership of other ask it about not just the numbers, although they are countries, not just on this issue but on issues that have clearly important, but the position of the people living an impact on this, such as climate change. I very much here to make sure that they are properly looked after agree with him. and that we do what we should do. Those points were The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and in particular spoke about the importance of individuals as well as by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. Governments contributing to this area. He spoke about Clement Attlee, quite rightly. I thank him and, through Through the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, I thank him, many other faith institutions for their sponsorship local authorities for what they do. I have certainly seen of individuals coming to this country as refugees. Syrian families in Newcastle, and in Taunton, Hereford Those numbers are added to the overall numbers; they and Southampton. A very good job is done by local are not taken out of them, as it were. They are in authorities. As I said, that does not mean that we addition to the numbers provided. cannot do more not just in numbers, although they are important, but in ensuring that the people who are here receive proper care and attention. In short, there The Lord Bishop of Durham: Forgive me, but can is a very local aspect to this in local authorities that the Minister check his previous answer? The last works well in general. There is a responsibility on conversation I had was that these numbers are included Governments and on individuals, and there is a global in, not additional to, the overall number. position that should worry us very much, in the context not just of some of the challenges but of some of the Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: I am grateful to the leadership, in particular the lack of leadership. right reverend Prelate. That is not the information that I have, but I will certainly check that point. We are working closely with Canada, which has Lord Alton of Liverpool: The Minister makes a very provided strong leadership in these areas through not important point about the lack of global leadership. just faith organisations but higher education institutions, Given that we all want these problems tackled at the such as universities. root so that there are not refugees in the first place, 533 Kindertransport Commemoration[26 NOVEMBER 2018] Kindertransport Commemoration 534 will he go back to some of the other departments he a good suggestion. I will see whether we can organise mentioned to see whether there could be some sort of something on that basis to look at how we can co-ordinate round-table discussion involving people such as the things, not just in our country. I am conscious that noble Lord, Lord Dubs,and others who have participated, when we had the Climate Change Conference in 2015 so that we could do more and be rather more effective the world came together to agree something. If it is than we have been thus far? Could he also undertake possible on climate change, given the very different to write to me on the specific point I raised about the interests around the world and the very different impact detention centres in Libya and the allegations made by it would have on different countries, you would think Safe Passage that children in those centres have been that it would be possible for the world to come together tortured? on so many other areas. That is something that this round table could look at. I will certainly see what I can do, perhaps working through the noble Lords, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: I certainly will. I Lord Alton and Lord Dubs. thank the noble Lord for reminding me of that point. I thank noble Lords for a very moving debate that Perhaps he and I could have a word about that. If he has looked at many issues, all of them very important. could supply me with some information I will make I undertake to come back to them on the issues raised. sure it gets to the right Minister so that we can get an answer on it. His broader point about a round table is House adjourned at 7.08 pm.

Volume 794 Monday No. 213 26 November 2018

CONTENTS

Monday 26 November 2018