Government Administration [11 APR., 1973] Questions without Notice 4813 on the departure from the State on lOth mrgtslattur As.a.rmhly April, 1973, of the Governor of New South Wednesday, 11 April, 1973 Wales, Sir Arthur Roden Cutler, on an official visit to the United Kingdom, he had assumed the administration of the Govern ment of New South Wales on 11th April, Administration of the Government-Questions without Notice-Education Commission (Urgency)-Dairy 1973. Industry (Amendment) Bill (third reading) Representative on Council of University of New England-Audit (Amendment) Bill (second reading) -Police Regulation (Superannuation and Appeals) ASSENT TO BILLS Amendment Bill (second reading)-Public Service (Amendment) Bill (second reading)-Aborigines Royal assent to the following bills (Amendment) Bill (second reading)-Housing and Public Works (Amendment) Bill (second reading) reported: -N.S.W. Retirement Benefits (Amendment) Bill (second reading)-Oatb of Allegiance-Municip District Court Bill ality of Hurstville (Wolli Creek, Kingsgrove, Evidence and Oaths (Amendment) Bill Public Reserve Land Sale) Bill (second reading) Private Irrigation Districts and Water (Amend Justices (Amendmenrt) Bill ment) Bill (Com.)-Printing and Newspapers Bill (Com.)-Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (Amend Main Roads (Amendment) Bill ment) Bill (Com.)-Retirement of F. A. Mahony, Valuation of Land (Amendment) Bill Serjeant-at-Arms-Printing Committee (Nineteenth Report)-Special Adjournment-Adjournment Venereal Diseases (Amendment) Bill (Apprentice Bricklayers)-Printed Questions and Answers. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE Mr SPEAKER (THE HoN. SIR KEVIN MINERAL SECURITIES AUSTRALIA ELLIS) took the chair at 2.30 p.m. LIMITED Mr SPEAKER offered the Prayer. Mr HILLS: I desire to ask the Attorney General a question without notice. Is it a fact that the Attorney-General appointed ADMINISTRATION OF THE investigators to inquire into the financial GOVERNMENT affairs of Mineral Securities Australia Lim Mr SPEAKER reported the following mes ited, the failure of which caused consequen sage from His Excellency the Lieutenant tial disaster to many thousands of share Governor: holders? Is it a fact that on 3rd January L. J. HERRON, last the official liquidator said that Australia Lieutenant-Governor. had not erased the stigma of the Minsec The Hon. Sir Leslie Herron, Lieutenant crash? Is the Attorney-General in a posi Governor of the State of New South Wales, tion to indicate to the House the present has the honour to inform the Legislative As position of the inquiries being held by the sembly that, consequent on the departure officers of the department under his juris from the State on lOth April, 1973, of the Governor of New South Wales, Sir Roden diction? Will he examine closely, and in Cutler, on an official visit to the United King form the House about, the actions of the dom, he this morning took the Oath of directors in the company related to this Allegiance and the Official and Judicial Oath serious crash, their related activities before the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of New South Wales, and assumed the ad with stockbrokers and the fact that they ministration of the Government of the State. appear to have survived the crisis without Government House, loss? I should appreciate it if the Attorney Sydney, 11th April, 1973. General would supply that information to the House, particularly for the benefit of Motion (by Sir Charles Cutler on behalf the shareholders who lost many millions of of Sir Robert Askin) agreed to: dollars. That the following resolution in acknowledg ment of His Excellency's Message be adopted Mr McCAW: The answer to the first by this House, and transmitted to · the Lieutenant-Governor: part of the question asked by the Leader That this House desires to express its of the Opposition is, yes. Inspectors were thanks to His Excellency the Lieutenant appointed-Mr Rath, Q.C., and two others, Governor for his Message of 11th April, 1973, informing Members that, consequent a Sydney accountant and a member of the 4814 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice appropriate section of the staff of the Com missioned by the Government of New missioner for Corporate Affairs. For some South Wales at the request of the standing time those inspectors have been engaged committee of Attorneys-General. in what is a lengthy exercise. The inspectors saw me about three weeks ago and I under Last week at the meeting in Sydney of stand that they expect to be in a position the Standing Committee of Attorneys to hand their report to me, as they are General it was agreed that the report would required to do under the law when it is be tabled within the next week or so in all completed, about the middle of this month. State Parliaments •and in the national Par When I receive the report I shall be guided liament. The standing committee decided by those considerations I adverted to in an that as there was some virtue in trying to answer I gave to the Leader of the Opposi establish a national policy on privacy, tion yesterday, as in all these matters. officers of the various departments con Whether I should table it will depend on cerned should consider the report and make whether proceedings are to take place and recommendations to the next meeting of the whether prejudice to individuals or to the committee, which is to be held in Perth in Crown or to the public interest might be July. As honourable members will appre involved in tabling it. If court proceed ciate, the report is an important one. We ings are to follow a report, ever since I all have a desire to maintain many of our assumed this office it has been my prac private affairs to ourselves and we wish to tice not to table it until later. Then I ensure that we protect the rights of the would look at the question of tabling the individual. I remind the House that in this report in the light of whether the public country there is no absolute right to privacy hearing of the court proceedings had dis that is enforceable by action in the courts. closed all the information contained in the I am afraid that it is commonly misunder report. When those requirements have been stood at large that there is such a special met the tabling of the report is only a right. matter of form. I am concerned, as is every Professor Morison in his report, which I honourable member and the Leader of the believe will find favour with honourable Opposition, that the public should be in members on both sides of the House, deals formed as quickly as possible having regard extensively wJth the extraordinary problems to the principles I have mentioned. I shall that exist in trying to create a specific right have regard to the matters referred to by to privacy. However, the professor sug the Leader of the Opposition in his ques gests that in New South Wales, as in other tion as soon as the report comes to me. States, there should be a committee backed I cannot examine it until it is in my hands. by statute to deal with complaints by citi zens about breaches of their privacy. The PRIVACY committee would be seen also as the body that would. formulate guidelines for the Mr COLEMAN: My question is directed implementation of statutory safeguards in to the Minister of Justice. Will the Minister various areas. advise the House what steps he proposes to take on the recommendations made by A survey of the report indicates that Professor Morison in his report on privacy Professor Morison recommends that sub which the Minister tabled last week? In committees ought to be set up, such as a his answer will the Minister in particular medical subcommittee to consider the privacy of medical records, a credit sub refer to any steps he proposes to take in committee to look at the privacy which relation to the activities of credit bureaux? shall attach to credit records and to credit Mr MADDISON: Honourable members bureaux as mentioned in the question of the honourable member for Fuller, a subcom know that last week I tabled in this House mittee on data banks ,and another on the a report on privacy which was prepared by public media. These recommendations in Professor Morison of the law school of the dicate the all-embracing nature of the re University of Sydney. The report was com- port, which is certainly unique in world Questions without Notice [11 APR., 1973] Questions without Notice 4815 terms in suggesting that a committee should Mr EINFELD: Is nearly all the business be esta:blished not so much to safeguard of insurance written on mortgages given by but to examine and vet claims that an in these particular permanent building societies dividual's privacy has been breached and to done by Mortgage Guaranty Insurance Cor make recommendations how this can be poration of Australia? Will the Premier prevented and an individual's privacy safe take legislative action to prohibit directors guarded in the future. of permanent building societies from holding directorships in mortgage insurance com I am paying particular attention to what panies? the professor has had to say in his report, especially on the question of credit bureaux Sir ROBERT ASKIN: I should think that ~a matter with which the honourruble mem the Deputy Leader of the Opposition would ber for Fuller has been substantially con know that I could not be expected to be cerned over quite a long period. It is in aware which people hold particular jobs in teresting to note that one of the subcom the business world of this State. mittee's recommendations is related directly to the subject of credit bureaux. At this Mr EINFELD: You do know. You have stage the matter has not been considered received letters about them. by the New South Wales Government and Sir ROBERT ASKIN: There are many it will be some time before this can be done. different companies and I do not look at The report, which consists of 130 pages of them individually. During the recent con closely reasoned argument, requires close troversy about building societies and hous study by people who are concerned with ing insurance companies I have been told all this problem. I assure the honoumble mem kinds of stories about members from both ber for Fuller that as soon as the Govern sides of the House-from your side of the ment has reached any policy decisions he House and from my side of the House-and and other honourable members will be honourable members have made representa informed. tions. I have been given photostat copies of letters which personally I prefer to dis regard because all that those people are try MORTGAGE GUARANTY INSURANCE ing to do is-- CORPORATION OF AUSTRALIA Mr EINFELD: I direct my question with Mr EINFELD: You are hiding something. out notice to the Premier and Treasurer. Sir ROBERT ASKIN: I can tell the Does the Housing Loan Insurance Corpora honourable member that among the Opposi tion, a Commonwealth Government spon tion shadow Cabinet are men who have sored mortgage insurance company, pro made strong representations about the hibit its members from holding directorships bodies to which the Deputy Leader of in permanent building societies? Are four the Opposition has referred, and the honour of the directors of Mortgage Guaranty In able gentleman knows a lot more about it surance Corporation of Australia, a totally than most people believe. oVersea-owned organization, either chairmen Mr EINFELD: That is why I asked the or directors of Australia's biggest permanent question, and the Premier knows more about building societies? it than he says. Mr BARRACLOU
Vale to Sydney in half an hour? What en an area of land on the Manly waterfront. couragement can the Minister therefore give This is a matter in which the Maritime to harassed commuters in the Manly-War Services Board, the Manly council and other ringah district and to assist in negotiations interests would become involved. with the Government for the building of I must say that the concept brought for the Manly to Pittwater railway? ward by the honourable member for Manly Mr MORRIS: It was with a good deal of is an exciting one, though of course those concern that I read yesterday of a decision other issues remain to be resolved. Some made by the Warringah shire council. We little time ago I suggested to the honourable had some discussion with the honourable member that he have a discussion with the member for Davidson and the honourable Premier and Treasurer as ministerial head member for Wakehurst about the council's of the Maritime Services Board and see decision not to permit high density or flat whether he can resolve some of the out development in the area until such time as standing matters. The concept is good and it is possible to handle the commuters. it seems a practical one from the transport People who go into this desirable region to point of view, but there are a number of live are having difficulty getting to and from matters which the honourable member con the city. I have been to the area on anum cedes have to be worked out. A rail link ber of occasions, and I would be less than anywhere in this peninsula area would fulfil frank if I did not say that I agree with a long overdue need and would make an the honomable member for Manly that enormous contribution to Sydney's transport grave difficulties are being experienced at systems. present in getting the bus traffic particularly to and fwm the Manly-Warringah area. This is due to ·the heavy build-up of traffic EDUCATION COMMISSION and, if I may say so with respect, the in URGENCY adequate road system in this particular area. Mr BOOTH (Wallsend) [3.4]: I move: The honourable member for Manly has That it is a matter of urgent necessity that noticed comments I have made from time this House should forthwith consider the to time about the only real answer to the following motion, viz.: problem, namely, provision of rail facilities ( 1) That in the opinion of this House the into this area. He is astute enough to appre Government has failed to-- ciate that the State's financial position makes (a) Maintain good industrial relations with it impossible for the Government from its the N.S.W. Teachers' Federation; resources to allocate funds for the construc (b) Properly administer the allocation of teachers college scholarships; tion of a rail link to this area that has been (c) Provide assistance to students needing long promised but not yet commenced. It remedial education and for children will not be possible for the Government suffering from special learning deficien from its limited resources to do anything in cies; this matter for some time. Because of this (d) Significantly reduce class sizes in line the honourable member for Manly, showing with the recommendations made by the his usual commendable enterprise and spirit Scott Committee in 1969; of adventure, consulted private investors (e) Understand and appreciate the signifi who wished to invest in this area and came cant assistance being provided and to be provided by the Federal Government; forward with the now famous Zenith railway and scheme, which is proposed to be built pri (2) That to overcome these failures the vately. It has been claimed, as the honour Government should immediately set up an able member suggests, that it would be pos Education Commission to control and sible to travel from Pittwater to Sydney in administer education. half an hour. This would be a remarkable It is urgent that the House discuss this breakthrough in transport. Some difficulties motion because the session is drawing to a have been encountered outside my adminis close. It has been obvious since the be tration because part of the plan revolves ginning of this session that the Govern around the acquisition for development of ment is making no endeavour whatsoever Education Commission [11 APR., 1973] Education Commission 4819 to maintain harmonious industrial relations makes inquiries locally he will find that with the Teachers Federation. As a matter of Mr Lee is highly regarded by the children fact, for the whole session there has been and the parents in that area. a continual threat of deregistration hanging The Opposition considers this matter over the federation. This atmosphere has urgent because of the breakdown in admin been engendered by the remarks of the istration during 1973. Even now, students Minister, by his action and what he has holding teachers college scholarships are said in this House in the way of personal not being paid their correct salary or allow attacks on individual teachers, the Teachers ances. Some are being paid allowances for Federation and groups of teachers in New last year and have not received the increase South Wales this year. I need only refer for this year. Things were so bad that last to the remarks of Mr Justice Sheldon ahout year we had the spectacle of students de relations between the Public Service Board, monstrating in front of the Department of which is in effect the tool of the Govern Education building to prove their point that ment, and the teachers. His Honour said: the department cannot administer teachers I regret to say that I regard the board's colleges. Another matter of deep concern present unwillingness to accept my recommen relates to medical examinations. If a govern dation as not in the best interests of industrial relations. ment cannot administer teachers college scholarships and provide some sort of medi That illustrates why it is urgent that the cal examination before a student accepts a House should consider the motion. The scholarship and attends a college or uni actions of the Government have created versity for three weeks, having refused other such an atmosphere. There have been more scholarships, it should vacate the field. Many strikes in the education field since the Gov students have their lives ruined by this ernment has been in office than at any other inefficiency. In our view an education com time in the history of education in this mission is the correct way to administer State. When Mr Lewis was president of teachers college scholarships. the Teachers Federation honourable mem bers considered that that was the most mili The matter is urgent because lecturers tant period in the history of teachers and at teachers colleges have suffered lengthy education, but today we have more strikes clelays in payment of their salaries and and threatened strikes than ever before teachers have been given three appoint even in departments where such action was ments during the first three weeks of the positively unknown previously, for example, school year. This is not good administra the Department of Technical Education. tion; it does not lead to good relations be These matters are urgent because of their tween teachers and the department. The effect on relations right throughout the Government's attitude to providing amanu education system. enses for children suffering from dyslexia and needing assistance at examinations is It is alleged that teachers at the J. J. nothing short of shocking. These children Cahill Memorial High School have been have a special need. victimized by being transferred for acting in a most militant manner last year. In The matter is urgent because the Oppo sition believes that there is a lack of ad addition, the representative of the Teachers ministration and guidance in relation to Federation at that school is under the threat colleges of advanced education, the future of being transferred to another school for of teachers colleges and their future re his militant action. We believe that the lationship and role in the universities. The provocative statements by the Minister, the matter is urgent, too, because the Govern honourable member for Miranda, the hon ment has failed to make any significant ourable member for Hurstville and Mr reduction in class sizes. In this State teachers Jackett the honourable member for Bur are unemployed. This is a shocking state wood in personal attacks on Mr Lee are of affairs. The Government had to rely on exacerbating the situation. If the Minister the Leader of the Opposition to prompt the 4820 Education Commission [ASSEMBLY] Education Commission Premier and Treasurer to make inquiries teaching positions. That is why we think cf the federal (}overnment about making the matter is urgent, and that is why we money from the unemployment relief grant reject the (}overnment's philosophy that the available to provide employment for establishment of a pool of unemployed is teachers. the only way to discipline workers. It was exactly that philosophy that resulted in the The request made to the federal (}overn federal Liberal-Country party (}overnment ment by the Minister for Education for being thrown out of office at the end of last financial assistance for education in this year. State was not re1ated specifically to the em ployment of unemployed teachers. We on The matter is urgent because teachers are this side of the House think the matter is still being recruited in North America for urgent because the CJovernment is not con service in New South Wales. For example, cerned about unemployed teachers. We fifteen teachers from North America were believe-- appointed on 27th March last. We believe that recruitment is continuing, despite the Mr CAMERON: On a point of order. It is :liact that teachers in New South Wales are obvious that the honourable member for unemployed. If ·that is a fact, the position Wallsend has no concept whatever of what is intolerable. The CJovernment has failed is meant by urgency. He continues to tell to deal with the problem of class sizes, or the House what the Opposition believes, to implement the recommendations of the what the Opposition thinks, that this is a Scott committee in that regard. The size of shocking state of ,affairs and so on, and is classes is a matter right at the heart of the following philosophical lines of thought education problems today, and unless class about education generally. None of his sizes are reduced, students who need presentation so far is related to the issue remedial and other treatment will not be of urgency. Up to this point he has not given the attention they deserve. given the House any reason why the matter should be treated urgently. I repeat, the I do not have time to go into the attitude honomll!ble gentleman is engaging in a of the Minister for Education in seeking philosophical treatise •about the thoughts of financial support from the federal Labor the Opposition and its attitudes to educa (}overnment, but his statement that Labor tion. That does not conform to the require Party policy is to centralize control of ments for urgency. education can be seen in its true light when one recalls that tertiary education control Mr SPEAKER: Order! I cannot agree en was centralized successfully by a Liberal tirely with the honourable member for Party Prime Minister, Sir Robert Menzies, Northcott, but I think the honourable mem through the establishment of the Univer ber for Wallsend will appreciate that he is sities Commission. The New South Wales straying somewhat from the essential re (}overnment has failed completely in its quirements for establishing urgency, and I ask him to confine his remarks to urgency. attempts to administer education in this State, which is no longer a leader in that Mr BOOTH: A consideration of un field. Some persons believed that this State's employed teachers in this State is urgent failure in education could be attributed to because the (}overnment has failed in its the administration of the former Minister, responsibility to employ them. If the CJov ernment would only negotiate and attempt the honourable member for Orange, but it to establish some reasonable relationship is clear that failure is the responsibility of with the members of the Teachers Federa every supporter of the CJovernment: no tion, the position would :be greatly im one on the Treasury benches is capable proved. For example, the special commit of administering the education portfolio. tee of the federation dealing with the prob lem of unemployed teachers would be able Mr SPEAKER: Order! The honourable to help the Department of Education in member for Wallsend is not now directing contacting teachers who are looking for his remarks to urgency. Education Commission [11 APR., 1973] Education Commission 4821 Mr BOOTH: The matter is urgent be therefore I submit that the honourable cause the Government has failed to estab member for Miranda should not be entitled lish an education commission, which it pro to make a personal explanation. mised for ten years before being elected Mr SPEAKER: Order! The honourable to office. member for Miranda says one thing and the [Personal explanation] honourable member for Corrimal, who is not directly involved in the matter, says Mr N. D. WALKER: I wish to make a another. The House has heard nothing on personal explanation. the point from the honourable member for Mr SPEAKER: Order! Is there any reason Wallsend although, if it becomes material, why the honourable member for Miranda I shall ask him about it. I think I should should be heard now on a point of personal hear a little more from the honourable explanation, or could the matter wait until member for Miranda before I rule. the motion before the House is disposed of? Mr N. D. WALKER: In my question I Mr N. D. WALKER: There is no reason asked about an elector of mine who ap why the personal explanation cannot wait, proached me and informed me that his as long as I am assured that I shall be daughter, who was in sixth form, had been given an opportunity to make it. asked by a member of the Teachers Federa tion to take part in a strike on 13th Mr SPEAKER: Order! I shall see that the April-- position of the honourable member for Miranda is protected in that regard. It Mr Cox: On a point of order. The would be undesirable to interrupt this honourable member for Miranda is now urgency debate, unless the point of personal debating the subject. Surely he should not explanation is related to it in some way. have an opportunity of entering into this sort of discussion. His reference to what Mr N.D. WALKER: It is. was supposed to have been said by the honourable member for Wallsend is com Mr SPEAKER: In that case, I shall hear pletely wrong. The honourable member for the honourable member for Miranda now. W allsend did not mention the name of the Mr N.D. WALKER: The honourable mem honourable member for Miranda, who is ber for W allsend alleged that I had said now debating the subject. I submit that if some detrimental things about teachers in the honourable member for Miranda wants New South Wales. I asked a question re to discuss the matter, he should not be per cently about an elector of mine who mitted to do so in the form of a personal approached me and informed me that his explanation. daughter, who was in sixth form, had been Mr N. D. WALKER: On the point or order. approached by a member of the Teachers The honourable member for Wallsend Federation and asked to take part in a definitely referred to the member for strike-- Miranda, the member for Hurstville and the Mr L. B. KELLY: On a point of order. 1 member for Burwood. listened intently to the remarks of the hon ourable member for Wallsend when address Mr SPEAKER: Order! The honourable ing himself to the motion of urgency. He member for Miranda cannot, under the guise did refer to the electorate of Miranda, and or in the form of a personal explanation, to a school in that electorate, but at no dispute or in any way canvass a statement stage did he make a reference to the charac made by the honourable member for Wall ter or person of the honourable member for Miranda, who is saying now that the send-assuming the honourable member for honourable member for Wallsend said he Wallsend did make it-unless he complains, made castigating remarks about teachers in and properly so, that in some way or other his electorate. That was not said by the his political or personal character or reputa honourable member for Wallsend, and tion has been reflected upon. Does the 4822 Education Commission [ASSEMBLY] Education Commission honourable member for Miranda contend that comes from the guttersnipes on that that his reputation or character, political or s1de but I do not seek a personal explana otherwise, has been reflected upon? tion at those times because you have ruled that that is not the way to reply. The hon N. D. Mr WALKER: Yes, I do. ourable member for Burwood is deliberately Mr SPEAKER: In what way? trying to flout your ruling. I think you should state once and for all that you are Mr N. D. WALKER: In this respect, that not going to stand for the honourable mem what the honourable member for Wallsend ber for Burwood trying to flout your ruling. said was a deliberate lie. Mr SPEAKER: Order! I think it is perfectly Mr SPEAKER: Order! The honourable plain by now that whatever-if anything member for Miranda is not entitled to make the honourable member for Wallsend said that allegation. He may say that the state applied equally to the three gentlemen ment is not true or is not correct, but he named, but in my opinion it does not entitle cannot say that it is a deliberate lie. There those honourable members, under the guise fore I ask him to withdraw that statement of a personal explanation, to canvass the before I proceed any further. matter at all. In the circumstances I cannot Mr N. D. WALKER: I withdraw it, and allow the honourable member for Burwood say that what the honourable member for to proceed. Wallsend said was untrue. However, what Mr WILLIS (Earlwood), Minister for has happened is that-- Education [3.21]: The honourable member Mr SPEAKER: Order! It seems to me that for Wallsend, in purporting to move what the honourable member for Miranda urgency, has canvassed a large field of edu is doing is disputing or indulging in debate cation matters. My difficulty will be to about a statement that may have been made answer the various things he has said within by the honourable member for Wallsend. He the limits of the time at my disposal. It is cannot do that under the guise of making a not that I cannot answer them; it is just personal explanation. I cannot allow him to that there are so many and they are such proceed. large subjects that it would be impossible to cover them adequately in ten minutes. [Personal explanation] The honourable member claimed that these Mr JACKETT: I wish to make a personal matters were all urgent. At the outset let explanation. The honourable member for me dispose of that claim once and for all. Wallsend, at the time when he attacked or All the matters he has raised are matters named the honourable member for Miranda that have been mentioned in one form or and the honourable member for Hurstville another for many years. These matters were also used my name, Jackett, and then said much more serious at the time when the that the member for Burwood had attacked previous Government was in office. To say Mr Lee in relation to the affair at Miranda that class sizes is an urgent matter that or Sutherland. ought to be discussed today, when the teacher-pupil ratio in primary schools is one Mr EINFELD: On a point of order. Mr to twenty-five though when Labor was in Speaker, the honourable member for Bur office it was one to thirty-five and a few years wood is flouting the ruling you gave in earlier it was one to forty-five, is absurd. relation to the honourable member for If the honourable member had not moved Miranda. If there is to be a debate on whether the allegation that was supposed this urgency motion, by now I would have to have been made about the honourable tabled the annual report of the Minister for member for Burwood was made, he can Education for 1972, which I shall shortly enter into that debate. Aspersions are cast table. Any honourable member who takes on one side or the other-and I can speak the trouble to read that report will see the with some authority on this; I suppose on progress that has been made under this many occasions I am wallowing in the mud Government in the field of education. This Mr Booth] Education Commission [11 APR., 1973] Education Commission 4823 is probably the first time in history, cer other 96 or 97 per cent got on with the job tainly the first time within living memory, that they are employed to do, that is to look that the report of the Minister has been after the children of this State. tabled within the prescribed period. If anyone is at fault in the confrontation The honourable member for Wallsend to which the honourable member referred, divided his motion into six different parts it is the militant and belligerent governing and gave five reasons in support of his sug body of the Teachers Federation. I go gestion that to overcome the failures the fuNher and say that if a fresh election were Government should immediately set up an he1d today of rank and file teachers through education commission to contml and ad out the State to ascertain whether they had minister education. That was the final point confidence in their executive, they would he made, which he said should be debated overwhelmingly throw it out of office-if urgently. The question of an education com the members had the opportunity. It is far mission was debated at the time of the 1965 from urgent that this Government should election and at the time of the 1968 elec answer for what has been going on. This tion. This Government was re-elected with week, while a case has been heard by the a record increase in majority in 1968 when Industrial Commission of New South Wales it told the people of this State that it was for the deregistration of the Teachers Fede not going to have an education commission ration, the executive has been calling on but instead would implement the recom other teachers to go out on strike and has mendations made in the Rydge committee been calling even on students to go on strike report. That question, far from being urgent against the employing authority in the State. and topical, is one that was disposed of not by this House but by the only masters we The honourable member raised the ques should answer to-the people of New South tion of teachers college scholarship holders Wales who decided the matter at an elec not being paid. He referred to a demon tion in 1968, more than five years ago. How stration that was held. This was anotlier on earth could that be described as urgent example of how youngsters were stirred up today? into a frenzy by the militancy of the Teachers Federation executive who said that The honourable member S:aid that the hundreds and hundreds of the students had Government had failed to maintain good not been paid. An investigation revealed industrial relations with the New South that twenty-two students had not been paid, Wales Teachers Federation. I used to think and if they had gone back to the college that the honourable member for Wallsend instead of marching down the street, with was a moderate man with a logical mind: the exception of five they would all have I regret to say that he, too, has succumbed been paid. to the influence of left-wingers and com munists, becaure if ever there was an irre The honourable member referred to the sponsible organization in the community to provision of assistance to students need day it is the executive of the Teachers Fede ing remedial education and for children ration of this State. It is an executive which suffering from special learning deficiencies. is so hell-bent on having strikes and causing I point out that when the Labor Party was industrial trouble that about a fortnight ago in government there were about 300 classes it arranged an enormous advertirement, and for these children. After seven years in widespread propaganda addressed to 38,000 office of this Government there are nearly teachers throughout the State urging them 900 such classes. This year the increase to go on strike for eJrtended periods on a has been on a similar scale to that in pre Thursday afternoon. What happened? The ceding years. As for the amanuenses he executive is held in such low esteem by sought to have provided for these people the rank and file members of the teaching at the time of the last examinations, time does not permit me to go into the details service that only about 3 or 4 per cent of but I answered this aspect in an answer to the teachers of the State did as the execu a question on notice. The answer discloses tive had so hotly exhorted them to do. The that one person who claimed to be dyslectic 4824 Education Commission [ASSEMBLY] Education Commission and sought assistance in the examination attended to over the years in a way that obtained an aggregate score in the higher would put to shame the performance of school certificate of 581 marks, sufficient to the previous Labor administration in educa win a Commonwealth scholarship, without tion. They are not matters of urgency and, the aid of an amanuensis. Why should such a person be provided with the advan therefore, the Government rejects the tage of having an amanuensis and thus motion. handicap the other candidates at the exam Question of urgency put. ination? That subject has been thrashed out thoroughly. The House divided.
The honourable member said that it was AYES, 45 titne we discussed, Its a matter of urgency, MrBannon Mr L. B. Kelly the question of class sizes. Over the years Mr Barnier Mr R. J. Kelly class sizes have been gradually coming MrBedford MrMahoney down and that trend will continue. The Mr Booth MrMallam real measure of how well off teachers are Mr Cahill MrMulock MrCoady MrNeilly in this regard is the ratio of pupils to MrCox Mr Nott teachers at a school. A glance at the annual Mr Crabtree Mr O'Connell reports of the Minister for Education will MrDay Mr Paciullo show that over the years the ratios have MrDegen Mr Petersen Mr Durick MrQuinn been getting lower and lower. This year Mr Earl MrRamsay the ratio is lower again than it has been MrEinfeld MrRenshaw before. There are hundreds of support Mr Face MrRyan Mr Gordon MrSheahan teachers. These days no complaints are MrHaigh MrSloss made about instant relief. because instant Mr Hills Mr Southee relief is virtually being provided and the Mr M. L. Hunter Mr K. J. Stewart ratio will continue to decrease. When the Mr Jackson MrWade Mr Jensen Mr F. J. Walker Labor Government was in office there were Mr Johnstone Tellers, numerous classes with over forty pupils; MrJones MrFerguson today there are only 150 such classes in Mr Keams MrFlaherty the whole of the State. NoEs, 47 The figures speak for themselves. When Mr Arblaster Mr Leitch the honourable member for Wallsend raises Sir Robert Askin MrLewis Mr Jack Beale MrMcCaw the question of this Government not appre MrBoyd MrMcGinty ciating or understanding the kindly Mr Brewer MrMackie approaches of the federal Government, MrBrown Mr Maddison which is so anxious to assist in terms of Mr Bruxner MrMason MrCarneron Mr Mauger education, he does not know a monster Mr Chaffey MrMead when he sees one. All the federal Labor MrClough Mr Morris Government is concerned with is taking MrColeman MrMutton Mr Cowan MrOsbome over the control of not only education but Mr Crawford MrPunch also every other function of State govern Sir Charles Cutler Mr Rozzoli ments throughout Australia to the detriment Mr Darby MrRuddock MrDoyle Mr Singleton of the system of federalism which has been MrDuncan MrTaylor enjoyed in this country for many years. MrFife MrViney MrFischer MrWaddy For all those reasons and for 101 other MrFisher Mr N. D. Walker reasons I could indicate, this Government Mr Freudenstein MrWillis is doing a much better job than ever before Mr Griffith Tellers, Mr D. B. Hunter Mr Barraclough in the history of the State as far as all Mr Jackett MrHealey aspects of education are concerned. The Question so resolved in the negative. matters raised by the honourable member are not of recent origin; they have been Motion of urgency negatived. Mr Willis] Questions without Notice [11 APR., 1973} Questions without Notice 4825 QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTlCE ate Affairs Commission and Mr M. W. (Resumed) Burke, an investigations inspector, were ap pointed under section 170 of the Companies WOLLONGONG EXPRESSWAY Act of 1961 as inspectors to investigate the Sir CHARLES CUTLER: On 15th affairs of the companies in this group. As March the honourable member for Wollon~ required by section 171 of the Act, on 5th gong asked me a· question relating to the April, 1973 notice of the appointment was Masters Road complex project at Wollon~ published in a special supplement to the gong and I stated that I would confer with Government Gazette. The investigation will the Commissioner for Main Roads and take not be conducted in public. The inspectors whatever action might be appropriate in the may, however, require any person to pro matter. The commissioner has informed me duce all books relating to the affairs of the that the honourable member's question re~ companies which are in that person's cus fers to the department's negotiations with tody or under his control, to give the inspec Herne Estates Proprietary Limited for the tors all reasonable assistance in connection acquisition of lot 9 shown on deposited plan with the investigation and to appear before 241274. This area of land is required for the inspectors for examination on oath. If the construction of an interchange which, a person fails to comply with a requirement among other things, will connect the south~ of an inspector, the matter may be reported ern freeway to the Masters Road deviation. to the Supreme Court, which is authorized The position regarding the negotiations is to inquire into the matter and, if satisfied that agreement has been reached on the that the person failed without reasonable terms of the acquisition of lot 9, one of excuse to comply with the requirement of which is that the department will provide the inspector, may punish him in like man a vehicular underpass to provide access to ner as if he had been guilty of contempt an adjoining lot 5, owned by Herne estates, of the court. which will be severed by the roadworks. A re-examination of the preliminary re However, the agreement is conditional upon port by officers of the Corporate Affairs approval being granted for lot 5 to be re Commission and of the commissioner's cov zoned from non-urban to industrial. The ering submission recommending the appoint question of re-zoning is at present being ment of the inspectors has led me to the considered by the State Planning Authority view that neither document should be tabled and the Wollongong city council. The re on the following grounds: first, having re zoning question has not delayed construc gard to the likely prejudice to persons tion work as the owner company meanwhile referred to in the report. Although an in has authorized the department to enter lot vestigation into the affairs of a company is 9 for the purpose of carrying out road con not entered upon lightly, the decision to do struction, and indeed the roadworks are at so must necessarily be made upon the basis present in progress. Resumption of the land of an incomplete knowledge of all the facts. is therefore unnecessary. If all the facts were known it would gen erally be unnecessary to have an investiga INVESTIGATION OF COMPANY AFFAIRS tion in the first place. The decision to order an investigation will often be made Mr McCAW: Yesterday the Leader of upon the basis of allegations or infer the Opposition asked me a question about ences which may reasonably be drawn the recent appointment of inspectors to in from information in the possession of vestigate the affairs of a group of companies the Crown. It would be highly prejudicial known as the Alexander Barton group. In to the persons named in a report if allega the course of my reply I said that I would gations made in respect of their conduct give further consideration to some aspects were publicly disclosed prior to an examina of the honourable member's question. I tion being made by the inspectors of all have done so and wish to advise the hon the relevant material-which would not be ourable member and the House that Mr available at the time the decision to order B. S. Smith, Chief Inspector of the Corpor- an investigation is made-or prior to all 4826 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY] Dairy Industry Bill persons concerned being given an opportu I am now in a position to give the honour nity to testify under oath as to their know able member and the House further informa ledge of the matters in question. tion on this matter. On 7th June, 1965 Mr Ross Mallam, then a single person earning In addition to those general considera $3,940 per annum, had shares allotted and tions, this preliminary report also refers to a loan approved by the Bass and Banks certain offences in relation to which in District Co-operative Building Society No. quiries have been completed and are 2 Limited, a terminating building society, now under consideration by the Crown Law authorities and the Solicitor for the Cor to finance the erection of a dwelling on porate Affairs Commission. Disclosure of Crown land holding special lease 1946/573 the details of these at this stage would be portion 217 at Terrey Hills. The land as prejudicial to the persons who may be de disclosed by the application for loan form fendants in any proceedings which may be was valued by Mr R. Mallam at $4,000. initiated. Second, the report includes the This valuation was on the basis of the names of persons who have made allegations amount paid by him in respect of the land. in respect of some of the companies which Before completion of the dwelling the are to be subject to investigation and it board of the society approved in principle would be contrary to public policy if the of the transfer to another homeseeker, but names of those persons were publicly dis the property was not transferred until after closed. Third, when inspectors have ex the dwelling was completed. The society's pressed the opinion following the completion advance was used for settlement by the of an investigation that criminal offences society's solicitor. According to a form of have been committed, or have recommend application for loan lodged with the society ed that proceedings in respect of offences by the purchasers the sale price was $9,330, be instituted, I have adopted the some $3,300 more than the contract price to general principle of refraining from tabling Mr R. Mallam. However, if the value of the the report at least until the completion of the proceedings. The principle is based upon land, namely, $4,000, is taken into account, considerations of possible prejudice to the he would have suffered a loss of $670 on defendants and to the conduct of the the sale. The honourable member for Camp Crown's case. When the proceedings have belltown was at the time and still is, a been completed consideration is then given director of the terminating building society. to the question whether the public interest However, he was not present at the board has been sufficiently served by the publi meeting held on 7th June, 1965, at which cation of the evidence given in the pro the loan to Mr R. Mallam was approved. ceedings as to render the publication of the He was present at the meeting of the board report itself unnecessary. If this principle held on 9th August, 1965, at which the is valid in its application to the publication transfer of the shares to the purchasers was of a report following the completion of an approved. There is nothing in the records of investigation-as I believe it is-an even the society to indicate whether or not the stronger case exists for refraining from tab other directors were aware of the relation ling a report which merely forms the basis ship between Mr Ross Mallam and the for ordering an investigation. honourable member for Campbelltown.
BASS AND BANKS DISTRICT CO-OPERATIVE BUILDING SOCIETY No. 2 LIMITED DAIRY INDUSTRY (AMENDMENT) Mr BRUXNER: On 4th April the bon BILL curable member for Wakehurst asked a TillRD READING question relating to Mr Ross Mallam and a Bill read a third time, on motion by Mr loan he obtained from a building society. Crawford. University of New England [11 APR., 1973] Audit (Amendment) Bill 4827
REPRESENTATIVE OF THE LEGISLATIVE Royal Australasian College of Surgeons. ASSEMBLY ON THE COUNCIL OF THE For the past fourteen years he has prac UNIVERSITY OF NEW ENGLAND tised his profession at Armidale and has Mr WILLIS (Earlwood), Minister for maintained a deep interest in education. Education [3.43]: I move: The honourable member, by virtue of his That David Stanley Leitch, Esq., M.B., B.S., background and personal qualities, is well F.R.C.S., F.R.A.C.S., member for Armidale, qualified for election by this House as a be elected as the representative of the Legisla member of the governing body of the Uni tive Assembly on the Council of the University versity of New England, and I feel sure of New England in pursuance of section 10 he will make a significant contribution to (2) (b) of the University of New England Act, 1953. its deliberations. Accordingly, I recommend to the House that he be so elected. Honourable members will be aware that, until recently, Mr Davis Hughes was the Motion agreed to. member on the council of the University of New England, having been elected by the members of the Legislative Assembly. How PUBLIC SERVICE (AMENDMENT) BILL ever as a result of his resignation as mem SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS ber ' for Armidale prior to assuming Mr WILLIS (Earlwood), Minister for office as Agent-General for New South Education f3.46]: By consent, I move: Wales, it is now necessary for the House to That so much of the standing orders be elect one of its members to serve on the suspended as would preclude the Public Service council of this university. Mr Davis Hughes (Amendment) Bill being brought in and passed had a long association with the University of through all its stages in one day. New England as a member of its governing The enactment of this legislation is import body. From 1958 he was one of the mem ant for the administration of the public bers elected by the other members of the service of this State. The bill has only just council. In 1971, following amendment of been prepared and I ask leave of the House the Act of incorporation to provide for the to suspend formal proceedings so that it election of parliamentary members, he was may be dealt with urgently. elected by the members of this House, I am aware that his interest in the university was Motion for suspension of standing orders highly valued and I should like to take this agreed to. opportunity to place on record an expression of appreciation of the significant contribu tion which Davis Hughes made to the life AUDIT (AMENDMENT) BILL and work of the University of New England SECOND READING during the time of his membership of its Debate resumed (from 4th April, vide governing body. page 4479) on motion by Sir Robert Askin: Recently, the people of Armidale elected That this bill be now read a second time. the present honourable member as their Mr HILLS (Phillip), Leader of the new representative in the Legislative Assem Opposition [3 .4 7] : This bill is directed solely bly. The honourable gentleman has a farm towards regularizing and making legal the ing background on the North-western perpetuation of an accounting practice that plains and in the Riverina, and during the has been questioned by a series of Auditors war served as a commando in the 2/6 and General since the 1930's. The Opposition 2/8 Independent Companies. He graduated drew attention to this most unsatisfactory M.B., B.S. from the University of Sydney state of affairs when dealing with the 1971 in 1950. Subsequently, he undertook post Appropriation Bill. We drew particular graduate studies both overseas and in Aus attention to the remarks by the Auditor tralia and has been admitted as a Fellow General in his report on the 1970-71 of the Royal College of Surgeons of Eng accounts in which he said that some aspects land, a Fellow of the Royal College of Sur of the Metropolitan Water Sewerage and geons of Edinburgh, and a Fellow of the Drainage Board Advance Account Act, 4828 Audit (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY] Audit (Amendment) Bill 1924, under which a special repayable ad clause 5 of the Financial Agreement solely vance of $1,920,000 for acceleration of for temporary purposes, do not have to be alleviation of beach pollution had been carried to the General Loan Account. made to the board out of the Treasurer's The particular water board account is miscellaneous account, had been referred to now regularized, as are other practices of the Crown Solicitor for advice. At the same an equally unorthodox or doubtful charac time is was also pointed out that a previous ter. For example, in 1970-71 the Treasurer Auditor-General had said: withheld from the General Loan Account The need for statutory direction, validating $15,903,000 of a $63,610,000 interest-free and regulating the use of the Treasurer's general capital grant from the Commonwealth and banking account for this purpose is a matter of urgent public importance. used it to defray his swollen Consolidated Revenue Account deficit. Without adequate In his 1971-72 report the Auditor-General legislation that procedure could be repeated said that in an advising the Crown Solicitor and the essential supervision by this Parlia had expressed the opinion that all moneys ment of every cent of public expenditure raised by way of overdraft represent a bor could be circumvented. Therefore, the rowing in terms of the financial agreement Opposition opposes this measure. This and that following amendments made to the cover-up legislation highlights once again the Audit Act in 1953, all such drawings should urgent necessity for establishing a real pub be carried to the General Loan Account. lic accounts committee. The existing com The Auditor-General reported that for many mittee is a farce. All it does is give its years it had been accepted practice to over approval, long after the act, to expenditures draw individual bank accounts although the incurred without parliamentary approval. It overall balance at the particular bank re is merely a rubber-stamp. mained in credit. He added that the Crown Solicitor was of the opinion that it was Honourable members on this side of the inconceivable that the 1953 ~.mendments House have been concerned that this legisla were intended to make all borrowings under tion regularizes something that has been the financial agreement payable to the taking place for some time. It has been General Loan Acount. He said further that suggested that in 1953 the Legislature did some of those borrowings, for example a not intend what in fact has been done in temporary overdraft to service the Consoli this situation. The Opposition has some dated Revenue Account, were by their very misgivings about the situation whereby nature inappropriate to be dealt with in that moneys can be used without the approval of manner. The Crown Solicitor advised that Parliament. I instance the case when funds it was essential that the earliest opportunity were given by the Commonwealth Govern should be taken to amend the Audit Act ment which, when Labor was in office, to correct the anomalous position that had would have gone to the General Loan resulted from the 1953 amendments. That Account, but they did not. It is interesting is precisely what this bill does. to note that after the Opposition raised the matter these moneys passed through the The bill regularizes the practice of not General Loan Account the following year passing these temporary overdrafts through because it was obvious that the Audit Act the General Loan Account. It negates the insisted that this should be done. 1953 amendment contained in section 35 of the Audit Act, which states specifically: "All There is in existence a public accounts moneys borrowed under authority of any committee which operates with the authority loan Act shall be carried to the General of this Parliament. However, this committee Loan Account". Whether intended or not, is completely ineffective because these ex that amendment served the salutary purpose penditures have already been incurred. of bringing such transactions through the What happens is that there is merely a pass General Loan Account to the scrutiny and approval or otherwise of Parliament. This ing of the accounts through the committee bill negates that position in that such over to indicate that in fact those moneys were draft moneys raised under the authority of paid in respect of the e~penditure so MrHills] Audit (Amendment) Bill [11 APR., 1973] Audit (Amendment) Bill 4829
claimed. Neither the Public Accounts Com ourable members read his second-reading mittee nor the Parliament has any real con speech they will learn that he referred trol. Matters are merely reported to Parlia consistently to the Auditor-General's advice ment in the ordinary way. The Opposition on certain matters. Today the Premier and proposes to do certain things-indeed, the Treasurer referred to the Crown Solicitor's Premier when he was in Opposition said advice. The bill is designed to cover up the that he would follow a similar course. It Government's attempt to fiddle with public seems that when people are on this side of accounts. It is designed to validate irregu the Chamber they want a close scrutiny to larities in the Treasury, not merely those be made of public accounts. that have occurred in the past but also the ones that will occur in the future. The When Labor returns to office it proposes Premier said the bill has been introduced at to set up a completely effective public ac the request of the Auditor-General. How counts committee and thus restore to Par ever, he has not given honourable members liament its essential power over the public any particulars of irregularities. Honourable purse. Unless that is done, this Parliament members do not know whether irregularities would continue to ·be a tool of government involve amounts of $100,000, $1 million, and in effect would authorize things that $5 million, $10 million, $50 million or even have already occurred. There is need for $100 million. No monetary sum has been a thorough look at ways to simplify and mentioned. consolidate the method of presenting public accounts. The system which operates in The fact that irregularities have occurred Victoria should be studied carefully. Under indicates that the public accounts presented it are a consolidated revenue account and tc this House as the Budget were false in a general loan fund account. essential details. It means that Parliament has been given incorrect information and My .first reaction to the bill was to oppose figures that are demonstrably wrong. It it but I can see the difficulties that have means that the public has been misinformed occurred in the past and the problems that have been raised over the years by various -just as the Commonwealth Government Auditors-General. Having regard to the ad has been misled-as to the state of our vice given by the Crown Solicitor, the Op finances. The position became so serious position proposes to support the bill because when the former Auditor-General, Mr under all governments-the present Govern Campbell, held that position that he wrote ment and its predecessors-methods have a letter to the editor of the Sydney Morning been used that have been in operation since Herald about the matter. In particular, he 1953. There should be a regularizing of the expressed his objection to the practice of sort of things that have been done in the paying the proceeds of loan funds into con past. The Opposition is concerned that solidated revenue and spending the money large sums of money should not be used on without the authority of Parliament. In his a temporary bas,is without Parliament's letter to the editor of the Sydney Morning having some opportunity to scrutinize these Herald dated 4th January, 1971, Mr Camp transactions. I recommend to the Govern bell claimed that the Government had done ment that it should look at this situation as wrong and that certain things should never closely as possible to ensure that these mat have happened. I shall not read the whole of ters are b:mught to the attention of the Mr Campbell's letter; I shall merely refer Parliament and that there should be a re tc that extract from it. In 1953, legislation vision of the functions of the existing was introduced to tighten up the very thing Public Accounts Committee. that Mr Campbell complained about in his letter to the press. The bill gives the Govern Mr MALLAM (Campbelltown) [3.56]: ment authority to extend its overdraft with The bill has been designed to deal with a the bankers. The onus was clearly on the lot of things that have gone on in the past Treasurer to inform the House of the extent since the Hon. J. J. Cahill presented as of that overdraft and the limit set by the Premier and Treasurer the Audit (Amend bankers, but he has failed to do so. The ment) Bill to Parliament in 1953. If bon- House is entitled to that information before 4830 Audit (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY] Audit (Amendment) Bill
proceeding to consider the bill. If these tions, a:nd they will know nothing about it. practices were indulged in by ~he account They will simply sit here and validate ants of a public company they would be in amounts of money they do not know about. trouble. In fairness to the Auditor-General, The Audit Act is an important statute, even at this late stage the Treasurer should and the Premier and Treasurer should have give the House the information I requested given much more information and many in a question I asked in this House some more reasons for the introduction of this time ago. amending measure. More important, he At the time I wanted to know the balance should have given reasons from the of the overdraft, and the Premier said that Auditor-General, not from the Crown he would give it to me, but he had other Solicitor. The Auditor-General would be important things to do. Perhaps he has the person who could give this information, done those other important things and can and tell honourable members what is hap now give me the information, but I should pening to the accounts of this State. We think the important thing for the Premier all know from the letter written by Mr and Treasurer is to know the balance of his Campbell that something that was done was overdraft. He did not know, and shook the not right. He issued a warning. We know question off. that the Premier and Treasurer on the last occasion when he had a huge deficit of I am not leading on the bill, but I be $25 million transferred $15 million on lieve that clause 3 should be dropped alto which he was paying interest. We do not gether. It says: know what the legislation is doing, and I Any act, matter or thing done or omitted should like to see clause 3 left out. We before the commencement of this Act which should not give a blank cheque without the would have been lawful had this Act been in advice of the Auditor-General. force when the act, matter or thing was done or omitted is hereby validated. Sir ROBERT ASKIN (Collaroy), That means that actions in the past, the Premier and Treasurer [4.3], in reply: I present and the future will be validated, regret that the honourable member for and it gives the Premier and Treasurer a Campbelltown should have come into the blank cheque to do anything he cares to debate. I have no objection to his saying do, despite the warning by Mr Campbell, what he thinks about accountancy pro~ the previous Auditor-General, and despite cedures and financial arrangements but, as what was said by the Hon. J. J. Cahill in usual, he sought to get a headline with a his speech when he was Premier. I am re snide remark when he spoke about fiddling ferring to what the Hon. J. J. Cahill said with accounts. I believe the honourable when he brought in the amending measure member leads the field from either side in 1953. Indeed, every few lines he men of this House when it comes to knowledge tioned that everything had been done on about fiddling with accounts. the advice of the Auditor-General. Surely Mr MALLAM: On a point of order. To the Auditor-General knew what he was me that is an insulting remark, and I ask doing when he suggested the insertion of that the Premier withdraw it. this section, and surely in 1953 he was not so unaware of the public accounts system Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am not going and the responsibility under the Audit Act to ask the Premier to withdraw it. that he would make such a mistake. The Sir ROBERT ASKIN: The honourable Premier of the day introduced the amend member made the same remark in regard ment on his advice. I did not notice in the to the Government. If a member makes Premier's second-reading speech any men these remarks in Parliament, instead of be tion of the Auditor-General giving him ing cowardly he should be prepared to advice on the preparation of this measure. stand up and take a crack back when he If clause 3 goes through, all these things gets it. will be validated. Honourable members have been given no accounts, no answers to ques- Mr MALLAM: I am not cowardly. MrMallam] Audit (Amendment) Bill [11 APR., 1973] Audit (Amendment) Bill 4831
Sir ROBERT ASKIN: The honourable have said, we must bear equal responsi member for Campbelltown says he is not bility for failing to see that there was an cowardly, but he is very sneaky, for year anomaly. What is the anomaly? Does it after year he came into my room after damage the State's interests in any way? caucus meetings to tell me what the Labor Did someone lose something? The fact is Party was doing-to give me every detail that it is a bookkeeping matter, and that of what the Labor Party was doing. He is all. This bill is designed to put it on a and Rex Connor came to my office con proper basis, so that it is no longer in any stantly. way doubtful legally. [Interruption] This is a validating measure, and the Leader of the Opposition correctly spoke Mr SPEAKER: Order! The Premier and of it in that way. I am sorry that one of Treasurer did not interject at any time his backbenchers thought it was necessary during a provocative speech by the hon for him to back up his leader, because I ourable member for Campbelltown. There do not think he added anything of any fore, I ask the honourable member for consequence to what his leader said. In Campbelltown to remain quiet now while deed, his leader covered the position quite the Premier replies. adequately and fairly. I said at the intro Sir ROBERT ASKIN: The Leader of ductory stage, and I say again, that the the Opposition put forward a pretty sound Leader of the Opposition was the first case. Although I have my differences with one in this House to draw attention to him on a personal and political basis, I this. Where he got his information I do would rather hear from him ten times than not know; it might have been his own once from the gentleman who just resumed brainchild, but he found a weakness, which his seat. Of course, the orders of the House we have set out to rectify. To talk about command me to refer to him as a gentle fiddling with accounts is an insult to this man. The Leader of the Opposition men House and is a reflection of a microscopic tioned the weaknesses in the Act, which mind indeed. This amendment arises from came about as a result of the 1953 altera an alteration of the Act that was made by tions that were introduced into this House our predecessors in 1953. Honourable by the Cahill Labor Government. Those members on this side of the House when alterations were designed to improve accoun tancy procedure, but certain things were in Opposition failed to notice this accounting overlooked. We who were in Opposition weakness, which only recently came to notice at that time are equally culpable for fail when the Leader of the Opposition drew ing to recognize the technical weaknesses attention to it. in that amending legislation. It has taken twenty years for them to become apparent At the first opportunity we have endea and, in fairness to the Leader of the Opposi voured to straighten things out. This bill tion, I think he was the first one to raise endeavours to do that. I regret very much the matter in the House. No doubt, being that following the temperate speech of the a man of average attainments like myself, Leader of the Opposition, a responsible man, he was given prompting by someone else with expert accountancy knowledge. somebody of infinitely lesser status should endeavour to make some miserable political The honourable member for Campbell gain out of the measure. That is typical of town mentioned a former Auditor him; that is why he is treated with the General, Mr Campbell, who criticized the procedure, but the fact is that the present utmost contempt on both sides of the Auditor-General, Mr Fairlie, did not criti House. I commend the bill to honourable cize it. At the same time, we believe that members. there is some doubt about the procedure Motion agreed to. authorized in the 1953 legislation, which was brought in by our predecessors. As I Bill read a second time. 4832 Audit (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY] Police Regulation Bill
COMMITTEE AND ADOPTION OF REPORT motion or the imposition of any punish Bill reported from Committee without ment where such punishment consists of .the amendment, and report adopted on motion infliction of a fine, suspension, or reduction, by Sir Robert Askin. whether in rank or pay, dismissal, discharge, or transfer. A right of appeal is also pro THIRD READING vided to members against a decision of the Bill read a third time, on motion by Sir commissioner in regard to the granting or Robert Askin. refusal of leave of absence on full pay for any period of absence occasioned by any wound or injury received, without their POLICE REGULATION serious or wilful misconduct, on certain (SUPERANNUATION AND APPEALS) daily or other periodic journeys to or from AMENDMENT BILL duty, or while temporarily absent from their SECOND READING place of duty during any ordinary recess. Sir ROBERT ASKIN (Collaroy), Premier There is no question, of course, of any and Treasurer [4.13]: I move: decision of the commissioner based on medi That this bill be now read a second time. cal advice by the police medical officer being in the nature of a punishment. That As indicated at the introductory stage, the question has never been raised. Therefore, object of this bill is to provide members of such a decision would not qualify for ap the police force with a right of appeal to peal under that heading. However, where the Crown Employees Appeal Board in the opinion of the police medical officer respect of a decision of the Commissioner results, either immediately or eventually, in of Police as to whether or not a member a decision by the commissioner to refuse has been hurt on duty in so far as the deci p:wmotion to a member of the force, or sion affects the member's entitlement to supersede him by the promotion of another, leave on full pay or the granting of a gratuity no reason can be seen to suggest that a or superannuation allowance to him on dis right of appeal against such a decision of charge under the age of 60 years. Obviously the commissioner is not alveady available. if he goes out at 60 he is entitled to cer It is considered that in the absence of a tain rights. This is a bill to deal with what decision by the Crown Employees Appeal happens when he is hurt on duty, or it Board or the Supreme Court to the contrary, becomes questionable whether he has been where a •right of appeal already exists hurt on duty, and he goes out of the service against decisions of the commissioner in before he is 60. respect of the granting or refusal of pro motion, .this includes the case where the Some time ago, the Police Association approached me seeking the provision to decision is based on the advice of the police medical officer that the member concerned police of a right of appeal against any is medically unfit That is important. The decisions of the Commissioner of Police or Deputy Leader of the Opposition will take the police medical officer on medical mat note that it is one of the points around ters which adversely affect their duties, which the bill hinges. seniority, promotion, pay or retirement. A number of distinct but related matters were However, the examination made of the involved in the consideration of this re position at the time revealed an anomaly in quest and in order that honourable mem respect of the appeal rights available against bers may fully appreciate the position and decisions of the commissioner in rega·rd to the purpose of the measures embodied in applications by police for hurt-on-duty leave this bill I will briefly outline the existJng of absence on full pay. While police have situation. Under the provisions of the for many years been able to {lppeal against Police Regulation (Appeals) Act, 1923, a decision of the commissioner to refuse members of the force may appeal to the Crown Employees Appeal Board against leave on full pay for an absence caused by any decision of the Commissioner of Police an injury received while travelling to and in regard to the granting or refusal of pro- from duty or during an ordinary recess, no Police Regulation (Super- [11 APR., 1973] annuation and Appeals) Bill 4833 right of appeal is available against an ad The superannuation entitlement of a verse decision where an injury is sustained member of the force who has had more during the actual performance of their than twenty years' service and retires in duties. I regarded the absence of such a circumstances not accepted as warranting a right of appeal as completely incongruous, hurt-on-duty pension is calculated at the and I hope the House will agree. I there rate of one-fortieth of salary at date of re fore had no hesitation in deciding to initiate tirement for each complete year of service, action to remedy the situation and I in less three per cent. The maximum entitle formed the Police Association of this de ment is three-quarters of salary, less three cision in a letter dated lOth April, 1969. per cent and is payable only where the At the same time I explained the appeals member has served for thirty or more years. position rega:rding promotional decisions of Where a member has had less than twenty the commissioner made on the advice of years' service a gratuity is payable. On the police medical officer. I .further advised the other hand a hurt-on-duty retired mem the association that it was not considered ber may be granted a superannuation allow appropriate for a right of appeal to be pro ance for such amount, up to the salary being vided in respect of the effect opinion as to received at the date of retirement, as the medical fitness furnished by the police medi Governor determines. As a general rule, cal officer may have on the question of the however, hurt-on-duty pensions are deter confirmation of the appointment to the force mined at three-quarters of salary on retire of a probationary constable or whether a ment, less three per cent. member of the force is fit to continue his duty or any type of police duty, to resume Honourable members will, therefore, ap or not resume duty, or to perform light preciate that acceptance or rejection of a claim that the medical condition causing re duties. tirement is attributable to police employ I know that the Deputy Leader of the ment can have a marked effect on the super Opposition is following this closely. As annuation benefit granted to a member who well, in the light of the position as then retires after less than 30 years' service. seen, I indicated to the association that it For example, in one of the particular cases was not thought that action was required raised with me by the association, the mem to provide a right of appeal in regard to the ber of the force concerned had had 23 effect which opinion of the police medical years' service and was granted a pension officer may have on the superannuation of 23/ 40ths of salary, less 3 per cent. entitlement of a member of the force who On the other hand, acceptance of his is discharged because of medical unfitness claim that his unfitness was attributable to before attaining the normal retiring age of police employment most probably would 60 years. However, at a later date the have resulted in his being granted a super association raised with me the individual annuation allowance of 30/ 40th of salary, cases of several former members of the less three per cent. I say that this would force whose claims that their retirement be most probably have been the case, because cause of medical unfitness was attributable it is the function of the Police Superannua to their duties or conditions of work bad tion and Reward Fund Board to recommend been rejected. Examination of the circum the amount of pension appropriate in such stances of these cases brought to light cases. aspects that were not previously apparent A member of the police force may be dis and it proved necessary for a detailed re charged medically unfit as a result of action view to be made of the position regarding initiated either by the member himself or decisions involving medical matters which by the commissioner who, in practice, would could affect the superannuation entitlement take such action only on the advice of the of police who are discharged before com police medical officer. Under the pro pleting 30 years' service. I am glad that the visions of the Police Regulation (Super Deputy Leader of the Opposition is nod annuation) Act of 1906, no superannuation ding assent. benefit may be granted to a policeman who 303 4834 Police Regulation (Super- [ASSEM:SLY] annuation and Appeals) Bill is under 60 years of age unless he is certi or working conditions. The Government fied by the police medical board to be in is trying to bring the police into line with capable, from infirmity of body or mind, of public service officers. It is considered, discharging his duties. The police medical therefore, that the right of appeal to the board may be constituted by any two of a Crown Employees Appeal Board should 'be panel of medical practitioners appointed by provided to a member of the force who is the Governor. When the issue in question discharged on account of medical unfitness was first examined it was understood that the and is dissatisfied with a decision that his opinion of the police medical officer as to unfitness was not occasioned in circum whether a policeman's unfitness was attribu stances that would entitle him to be granted table to his police duties was reviewed by a hurt-on-duty pension. the police medical board. It was understood also that the position applying in the case Honourable members will have noted that of police was comparable to that existing all existing rights of appeal available to in respect of public service officers. How police are in respect of decisions of the ever, it has been found that this is not the Commissioner of Police. It is considered that case. there should be no departure from this policy. It is also considered to be wrong Though the matter has been receiving in principle that the police superannuation constant attention it was only recently that board should be the authority to decide the the crux of the problem became apparent basis on which a member of the force is and enabled a satisfactory solution to be discharged unfit. Such a decision properly formulated. The actual situation under the should be made by the Commissioner of Police Regulation Acts and the police rules Police and in this event the function of the was established to be that the function of board, also quite properly, would be re the police medical board is restricted solely stricted to the making of a recommendation to the question of medical fitness and that as to the superannuation allowance or gratu the decision as to whether such unfitness is ity which, having regard to the basis on attributable to police duties is made by the which the member has been discharged by Police Superannuation and Reward Fund the commissioner, should be granted or paid Board in the light of the advice of the police under the provisions of the Police Regula medical officer and or the Commissioner tion (Superannuation) Act. After thorough of Police and the circumstances of the par examination of the circumstances and fac ticular case. This decision is made by the tors I have outlined it was decided that the superannuation board in the course of de problem existing could best be overcome by ciding upon the recommendation it is re making provision for decisions as to the quired to make as to the nature and basis on which members of the force are quantum of the superannuation benefit discharged medically unfit to be made by which may appropriately be granted by the the commissioner and for such decisions to Governor to the policeman concerned. be appealable to the Crown Employees Appeal Board. As I have explained on other occasions, police are specificaily excluded from the The present legislative provision relating definition of a "worker" under the Workers' to the retirement of medically unfit members Compensation Act and as the matter stands Qf the force under the age of sixty years is there is no avenue by which a member of the contained in section 8 of the Police Regula force is able to seek review of a decision tion (Superannuation) Act. The bill there that his medical unfitness was not occasioned fore provides for the amendment of this in circumstances warranting the grant of a section to require as conditions precedent hurt-on-duty pension. Police are therefore to the grant or payment of any superannua clearly at a disadvantage in comparison with tion allowance or gratuity to ·such a member 'Of the force that he be fmmally discharged public service officers who may pursue fmm the police force and that the commis under the provisions of the workers' com sioner shan decide at that point whether or pensation legislation a claim that medical not the discharged member's medical unfit unfitness is attributable to duties performed ness was occasioned by a wound or injury Sir Robert Askin] Police Regulation (Super- [11 APR., 1973] annuation and Appeals) Bill 4835
received in circumstances which would en Mr EINFELD (Waverley), Deputy title the member to be granted a burt-on Leader of the Opposition [4.32]: To me it duty superannuation allowance. The com seems immoral and improper that there missioner will be required to notify the dis should be any Crown employees who are charged member of such decision. Section treated in an inferior way to employees 6 (l) of the Police Regulation (Appeals) engaged in any other .capacity, as servants Act is being amended to provide the right of the Crown or {)therwise. The Premier of appeal to the Crown Employees Appeal spoke about workers' compensation and Board against such a decision of the com highlighted the fact that by this measure an missioner and to provide the further right d attempt is made to right some wrongs. It appeal against a decision of the commis· does right a number of wrongs but I believe sioner to grant or refuse leave of absence on that workers in the community in any full pay during any absence occasioned by capacity, whether they are employed by the any wound or injury received by a member Crown in any area or by any other employer, of the force in the actual execution of duty. are entitled to all the rights and privileges In addition, provision is contained in the that workers in any other industry enjoy. It bill for these rights of appeal to be available is highly improper to perpetuate the idea retrospectively in respect of cases occurring, that conditions of one group of workers in or decisions of the commissioner given, on the community are such that they do not or after lOth April, 1969. ,enjoy the right t{) do things that other citi zens may do. There is nothing especially Mr BANNON: That is a good date. political in what I am saying. Anyone who Sir ROBERT ASKIN: We had been in believes in the rights of ordinary citizens office for four years then and we look ahead would subscribe to the view that no one in to another twenty-four years. That was the Australia should be subject to discrimina date of my original undertaking to the tion that is practised deliberately or even Police Association. In other words, the unconsciously. Government is implementing a policy under No honourable member from either side taking. This is something that was asked for .of the House would suggest that any worker by the Police Association. It will ensure that should suffer an inferior situation because no serving or discharged member of the of the perpetuation of matters that have taken place over a long period. It is not so force will have been disadvantaged by the long :ago that members of the police force delay which unfortunately occurred before could not join political organizations, be the complex issues involved were clarified ·come mem!bers of political parties or stand and the necessary legislative changes could as a candidate in an 'election. That wrong be made. I am satisfied that, pending com has been righted and members of the police pletion of the comprehensive examination force :are now members •of all types of politi being made of matters of a workers' com -cal parties, at least the major parties. Some members of this Parliament i.n both the pensation nature affecting police, the pro Liberal Party an.d the Labor Party-though visions contained in this bill will, as far as I doubt tha>t they would descend as far as as practicable at this stage, provide police the Country Party-were fmrmerly mem with adequate and appropriate rights .of bers of the police force. appeal in respect of workers' compensation Member.s that it believed in this. It is now 11th April, of the commissioner. This procedure has 1973. The Government took only four years been followed for some time. Until now and one day to get round to it. The Govern some police who have been affected by ment had no hesitation at all-only four these decisions have suffered grave in years and one day. In my files I have a copy justices. So that the Premier can honour of a letter which was written by the secre the obligation to the Police Association, he tary of the Police Association at that time, has made the legislation retrospective to Mr F. C. Laut, on 8th November, 1970. April, 1969. I congratulate him on doing The heading is: that. It was a nice thing to do after keep Desire by the Police Association to obtain ing these people waiting for four years. Any for members a legal right to appeal against any police officer who suffered by these de decision of the Commissioner of Police which cisions in the meantime is entitled to justice. adversely affects the promotion, pay or retire ment, of any member of the Police Force. A number of cases of people who suffered His letter refers to a letter from the Premier, injustice have come to my attention. I shall in these words: not talk about all of them, but I shall men We wish to draw attention to your letter to tion one in a little detail to demonstrate that us dated lOth April, 1969, in which, page 2, grave injustices have been going on for second last paragraph, you indicated that you many years. There were a number before intended to submit the abovementioned sub April, 1969, but there have been some since ject for consideration of Cabinet with a view to an amendment to the Act, if they should so that date. There is the human element of desire. men who have gone on the scrapheap be You promised to get in touch with us again cause of determinations by the commis in respect of the granting or refusal of leave sioner following a report of the police medi of absence on full pay for absences caused by cal officer. Decisions which appeared harsh wounds or injuries received. However, this matter seems to have been overlooked. may have been upset on appeal if the pro visions of this bill had existed. The best Despite the alacrity, speed and tremendous example I have close at hand is the case of activity of the Premier, who notified the as Sergeant second class R. J. Beed. He was sociation on lOth April, 1969, in Novem stationed at Manly and was discharged from ber, 1970, the secretary of the Police the police force on 4th December, 1970. Association at that time wrote to the Pre It is proper that he should be covered by mier saying that some matters had been this retrospective measure. Many decisions overlooked. What sort of a situation would worry the people involved. the Police Association have been in had the Premier hesitated? What would be the posi For instance, Sergeant Beed was aged 49 tion had he employed the sort of hesitation and had been in the force for twenty-three he demonstrates in answers to questions in years and nine months when he was dis this House when he often uses underground charged because the commissioner made a , tactics to cloud issues? It would be interest decision that he was not injured on duty. ing to know what would have happened if He has furnished plenty of evidence to there had been some hesitation. But he did show that his illnesses were the result of not hesitate-it took him only four years his police duties. Sergeant Beed believed and one day. and hoped that he would serve in the We agree with the Premier and Treasurer police force for a further eleven years. that this is a great step forward. It is On 4th December, 1970, when he was important, for now the police have the 49 years of age, he was discharged. right of appeal against a decision of the Before his discharge he was station sergeant commissioner regarding matters of health at Manly police station. In July, 1969, he and injury. These decisions are made by was admitted to Manly District Hospital the commissioner in honesty following a re suffering from chest pains. On that occasion port from the police medical officer. Mem he was treated by the physician at that hos bers of the Opposition do not denigrate the pital, Dr Bennett. After a few days he was activities of the police medical officer or discharged and in discussions with specialists MrEinfeld] Police Regulation (Super- [11 APR., 1973] annuation and Appeals) Bill 4837 he told them that his duties as station ser be classified as having been hurt on duty and geant, in which he had been occupied for that his existing disability could not be dealt some years, had given him great concern with in that way. Dr Pedersen reported: and were causing him serious tensions. He I am quite satisfied that Mr Beed did not said also that he wanted to be transferred suffer from a myocardial infarction in July this to some other position. He said he was year and he is now perfectly fit to return to finding it physically beyond him to be sta normal duties. tion sergeant, which he regarded as an That is quite worrying, especially as on 7th arduous task, and one might well agree with October, 1970, Dr Cedric Castle, in a letter him in that day after day he would be re to the police medical officer, said that Mr quired to receive complaints and deal with Beed had been suffering from sudden severe a variety of incidental matters. retrosternal chest pain extending to the left On 17th August, 1970, he made an appli arm and associated with paraesthesion in the cation to the officer in charge of No. 14 left hand, weakness and sweating. The doc Division and said he felt the job was getting tor said that Mr Beed had had an electro completely beyond him and that he had told encephalogram which confirmed the diag the doctors there was tension in his station nosis of post-myocardial infarction, and duties. Sergeant Beed said he had had a treatment was commenced with valium and great deal of medical advice from Dr Cedric heparin with complete bed rest. In a two Castle who was in practice in Dee Why page report Dr Castle brought those matters together with Dr John Castle and Dr Joan to the notice of the police medical officer. Ingham. Dr Joan Ingham was honorary Dr Joan Ingham said she believed Mr physician at Rachel Foster Hospital and Beed had suffered a myocardial infarction honorary assistant physician at Manly Dis but Dr Pedersen did not agree and he re trict Hospital. Her qualifications are M.B., ferred to the opinion of Dr Gabriel S. Nagy B.S., Sydney University; D.C.H., London who said that he did not believe Mr Beed University, as well as M.R.C.P., M.R.C.P.E., had had a myocardial infarction. These and M.R.A.C.P., which amply demonstrates things cause a great deal of worry. In prac that Dr Ingham is a person of standing. tice the Commissioner of Police does not On 12th May, 1970, she said that Mr Beed depart from the decision of the police medi had been admitted to Manly District Hos cal officer with regard to advice on the pital on 17th April, 1970, following a myo health of police officers. The Police Associa cardial infarction. Of course, Mr Beed be tion has always believed that an appeal lieves that that developed because he was should lie from a decision of the police not moved from his job as station sergeant medical officer in certain respects and, of at Manly. He believes it can be attributed course, that there should be an appeal from to the work he was doing. He has furnished a decision of the commissioner in relation to a number of medical certificates as well as a matters of this nature and seniority. report from Dr Pedersen, police medical In fact, in a letter by the general secretary officer. of the Police Association, Mr F. C. Laut, to On 14th August, 1970, Dr Pedersen re the Premier several cases were referred to, ported on Mr Beed's condition. I am sure including the application of Sergeant R. J. Dr Pedersen would report without prejudice Beed to have an injury classified as hurt-on duty, an application by Constable Llewellyn, and give an honest medical opinion but we to have an injury classified as hurt-on-duty must bear in mind that medical opinions and in addition to have medical expenses differ between doctors just as opinions dif incurred reimbursed, and an application by fer between men of political sagacity and Constable W. Richardson to have an injury knowledge. For instance, the Premier and classified as hurt-on-duty, all of which had I differ on nearly everything, though we been refused by the commissioner. An both believe that this bill is a good thing abundance of medical opinion is available for the police force. Dr Pedersen reported with regard to Sergeant Beed. On 9th Nov that Sergeant Beed could not, in his opinion, ember, 1970, Dr Schiller, of the National 4838 Police Regulation (Super- [ASSEMBLY) annuation and Appeals) Bill Heart Foundation of Australia and the possible. This bill opens up a new situation. cardiac rehabilitation unit of Prince of Mr Beed will have a right of appeal, and Wales Hospital, Randwick, examined Mr we are delighted about that. Beed and reported on him to his physician. Despite the Government's dilatory atti Ex-Sergeant Beed has been writing to the tude, which has led to this measure being Premier for a long time about this matter. brought down four years and one day after One can imagine the despair and feeling of the Premier had no hesitation in informing hopelessness of this man who at age forty the Police Association that he would intro nine suddenly had his career stopped, was duce it, we favour the measure, and are discharged from the police force and was pleased that the Premier honoured an obli not entitled to benefits to which he will be gation, implied and understood in the letter, come entitled under the provisions of this to make the benefits. retrospective to lOth bill. That was an awful predicament for a April, 1969. As a result, former Sergeant man to find himself in. In a letter dated 20th Beed and all the other members of the November, 1971, addressed to the Premier, police force who during that four years and Mr Beed said, in part: one day have been languishing in some in ... if after my hospitalization in July, ferior position, or living on means below 1969, I had been given some other duty than the needs of themselves and their families, station sergeant, as suggested by Dr Bennett, the myocardial infarction might not have hap will have an opportunity to have these mat pened and I would still be a serving member ters rectified. At least they will be able to ot the force especially in view of my experi avail themselves of a right of appeal that ence and the difficulty of obtaining new re has been dated back to lOth April, 1969. cruits. By myself reporting the facts to the police We are delighted to support a measure medical officer and the various inspectors I that will do many things to right wrongs had carried out what was expected of me and so did everything within my power to avert that have been inherent in activities in the that which followed, for which I feel it would police force. Every honourable member be unjust if I am to be penalised for some per appreciates that the police force of more son or person's lack of action or direction. than 7,000 men and women serves the com In fact, Mr Beed has been penalized. The munity extremely well. At times in this Premier, in his reply to Mr Beed, said that Parliament we have criticized individual the matter would receive close attention. members of the force; indeed, we have That was back in 1970 and this bill has only criticized high officers. I believe that they now been introduced. Mr Beed has waited must not be inviolate and, if they do wrong a long time, though I do not suggest he will things, they must be accused of doing them. be unhappy with the result. In fact, I am Nevertheless, we are delighted with the sure he will be happy if in the result this manner in which these men and women legislation means that he will have the op serve the community, sometimes with great portunity to receive the benefits referred to personal sacrifice. Further, we are delighted in this measure. Though the appeals re to signify our approbation and gratitude in ferred to in this bill cover fairly wide respect of the great things they do for us ground there are still some areas where no in the preservation of law and order in the appeal lies. The fact that the commissioner community. refuses promotion or punishes a member Even when appeals are heard the results of the police force either by imposing a do not always seem to be what one would fine, reducing the officer's rank or by trans expect. For instance, when Detective Ser geant Arantz was discharged, then appealed, ferring, suspending or dismissing him, or and had his appeal dismissed, many people that the commissioner refuses to grant believed that he was wrongly done by. At leave of absence on full pay to a member the same time, none of us thinks that any of the police force as a result of wound or person in any department-or any person injury, or that a person is discharged from for that matter, whether he be in my em the police force under the age of 60 years, ploy or the employ of the Premier-who are all areas where no appeal has been receives confidential information has the Mr Einfeld] Police Regula~ion (Super- [11 APR., 1973] annuation and Appeals) Bill 4839 right to disclose it. By and large we ex whole story. The facts outlined by the press our appreciation of the ·men and Deputy Leader of the Opposition contaiq women who serve in a great force in New the same kind of information as he gave South Wales and carry out a big task, mostly to me. He was not crying; all he wanted uncomplainingly. was a right of appeal. Indeed, he did not say he would win his appeal. He was plead Honourable members on this side of the ing a basic cause of justice. House want to say that all policemen and police officers who make special sacrifices Sometimes with complex legislation and when serving the community should be in regulations some things cannot be achieved no inferior position, in terms of employ as quickly as one would like. The honour ment or conditions, compared with any other able member for Georges River is attempt members of the community. We on this ing to interject: he is the expert on the side of the House-and I hope the Premier police force that he has done more to deni and Treasurer supports this-believe that grate than any other member of Parlia no person anywhere employed by the ment. He will never get an opportunity ot Crown, or anyone else, should be prevented being the Minister in charge of the police from going to the workers' compensation force. If he does, it could only be if we had tribunal or to any other tribunal that is a police State. The Deputy Leader of the available to other members of the com Opposition has an almost complete file on munity. the matters relating to former Sergeant Beed, but I shall read a letter that I believe Mr VINEY (Wakehurst) [4.54]: I con he does not have in his file; if he had a gratulate the Premier and Treasurer on letter like this I believe he would lay it on bringing down this long-overdue legislation. the table of the House. The letter from The Deputy Leader of the Opposition com Sergeant Beed, addressed to me on 29th mented on the fact that the first representa March, 1972, is in these terms: tions were made by former Sergeant Beed within the period of four years and one Dear Mr Viney, day while this bill has been awaited. This I called in to your place today, but no one sort of thing has been going on for as long was home, and I would like to take this oppor tunity of expressing to you my very sincere as there has been a police force. There was thanks an!l appreciation for everything you never a feeling of copfidenct) in the Police have done in this matter I am involved ip Association that they could get anywhere re "Right of appeal against the Police Com with raising this matter until the Askin Gov missioner's decision". ernment came to office and demonstrated After receiving from you the Premier's press release, I spoke to Bob page and he assures its great support of the police force and me that when it is made statute after the proceeded progressively to correct the weak tabling period he will forward to me the nesses and anomalies that existed in the necessary papers to initiate my appeal. conditions of the force. I shall not ryad the rest of this eulogy, but The Deputy Leader of the Opposition has I shall table the letter. an extensive file relating to former Sergeant Mr CRABTREE: You are not the only one Beed, who is a constituent of mine, and has who made representations. I made repre .a unique place in my political life. He was sentations on behalf of the man. the first person to make representations to me. Soon after I was elected to this House Mr VINEY: Did the honouriible member he came to my home one Sunday morning. get a letter like this on(;)? This was somewhat unusual, but I thought it was probably the way these things happen. Mr CRABTREE: Yes. J was impressep from the beginning by the Mr VINEY: Apparently the honourable ;man's approach and candovr. That is up(ier member did not follow it through. The standable w~n one tAkes into account that legislation has been introduced and has been be is a former flight lieutenant and bomber made retrospective to the day when the issue pilot; he must have had some ability to was first raised with the Premier by the occupy those position.~, H<$ tPld me his Police Association. The Premier unqertool We cannot blame the Deputy Leader of THIRD READING the Opposition for that. He has been here only ten years which, when it comes to Bill read a third time, on motion by Sir action by the Labor Party, is but a moment Robert Askin. in time. The letter continued: -and which denied police the right of appeal BILLS RETURNED against the decisions of the Commissioner of The following bills were returned from Police with regard to injuries considered to the Legislative Council without amendment: have been received in the execution of duty. We are satisfied that it is due a great deal Administration of Justice Bill to your efforts that the proposed new legisla Arbitration (Foreign Awards and Agree tion will be retrospective to lOth April, 1969, ments) Bill and will afford some justice to a number of members and former members whose cases Firearms and Dangerous Weapons Bill have been decided since that date. Foreign Judgments (Reciprocal Enforcement) Bill We take some satisfaction in that. I just Governor's Salary (Amendment) Bill. want to say that I thought my friend opposite Liquor (Amendment) Bill did his best with a difficult assignment. If it had been an easy one it would probably Sydney Opera House Trust (Amendment) Bill have been given to someone else. Those who know the situation will realize that the Government is doing something to help de PUBLIC SERVICE (AMENDMENT) BILL serving persons. The remaining point I INTRODUCTION should mention is that ,the Deputy Leader of the Opposition referred to the case of ex Sir ROBERT ASKIN (Collaroy), Premier Sergeant Arantz. I do not propose to re and Treasurer [5.12]: I move: open that case but I want to say only this: I That leave be given to bring in a bill to make further provisions with respect to breaches do not know any,thing for or against him of discipline committed by certain officers em except what is on the official file. He ap- ployed in the Public Service; for this and other 4842 Public; Service [ASSEMBLY] (Amendment) Bill purposes to amend the Public Service Act, 1902, 58 of the Act to clarify the matter of to validate certain matters; and for purposes appointing persons to deal with charges connected therewith. made under section 56. I understand that in l'he purpose of the bill is to overcome a the past magistrates have usually been so situation arising out of a judgment given in appointed. An important question is whether August last by the Court of Appeal in the the person charged can continue in his em Supreme Court in relation to the power of ployment until the matter has been deter the Public Service Board under section 58 of mined. The Public Service Association is the Public Service Act to appoint some per anxious that this problem should be cleared son other than a board member to inquire up as quickly as possible and that is why as to the truth of any charge under section the Opposition agreed that the bill should 56 of the Act. The effect of the judgment be dealt with as a ma:tter of urgency and is that the Public Service Board has power passed through the Parliament in one day. to appoint a person other than a board In general that is what the measure is all member to conduct an inquiry under the about, and we agree with the motion. Public Service Act only where the officer charged has been suspended. It follows from Motion agreed to. the decision that where the officer charged Blll presented and read a first time. is not suspended, the board itself must con duct the inquiry. SECOND READING The result seems to be that the Sir ROBERT ASKIN (Collaroy), Pre many inquiries that have been conducted mier and Treasurer [5.18]: I move: over .the years by other than board That this bill be now read a second time. members where the officers charged were I appreciate the attitude of the Leader of not suspended were invalid. The bill vali the Opposition. I know that he is anxious, dates the action in this regard taken by the as I am, to eradicate any weakness in our Public Service Board in the past-before public service system. In dealing with this this Government came to office and since it bill, we are not concerned with how this has been in office-and provides for the position arose or who is to blame for it. The board to be able in the future to appoint matter has to be put on a proper basis so some person other than a board member that there is no cause for any worry. As ex to conduct inquiries under the Public Service plained at the introductory stage, the object Act where the officer charged has not been of the bill is to overcome a situation arising suspended. In such a huge service this sort from a judgment in August, 1972, by the of thing happens often. For some years Court of Appeal in the Supreme Court in now, as a result of amendments made from regard to the power of the Public Service time to time, the need has existed to clarify Board under section 58 of the Public Ser the wording of sections 56 and 57 of the vice Act to appoint some person other than Act and the opportunity has been taken to a member of the board to inquire as to the re-write these two sections. There is nothing truth of any charge under section 56 of the in this bill of a political nature. Obviously, Act. There are so many of these matters over the years, both sides of the House have it is just not possible for a member of the been unaware of the technical position that board always to be available to conduct has existed. This measure is aimed at cor the inquiry. Often a magistrate or a head recting the position and I commend the of department, or someone like that, con motion to the House. ducts the inquiry. Mr HILLS (Phillip), Leader of the Oppo In December, 1971, following upon the sition [5.14]: The Opposition has contacted escape of a prisoner from Parramatta ga01, the Public Service Association on this mat the Public Service aoard decided to charge ter. We have been told that the technicality three prison officers with negligence or car~ arose from a decision given by Mr Justice lessness in the discharge of their duties Perrignon in an appeal matter. The purpose 1,1uder section 56 of the Public Service Act. of the bill is to amend sections 56, 57 and. Eac;h Qf th~< gffic;'"r§ denied the truth gf tbe Public Service [11 APR., 1973] (Amendment) Bill 4843 charge against him and the board then pur these circumstances has been followed for a ported, under section 58 of the Act, to ap great many years without previous challenge point a stipendiary magistrate to hold an and honourable members will appreciate inquiry into the charges. The magistrate sub that it is desirable that the Public Service sequently reported to the board that, in his Board be given the power to continue this opinion, two of the officers were guilty and practice-a power which all have hitherto the third was not guilty. It is not our pur assumed that it possessed. We should keep pose here to consider whether the officers in mind that the board in delegating power were guilty of the charge. We are con through the years under various political cerned with a technical situation. Before regimes has always been punctilious to en the board considered what penalty should be sure that the person conducting the inquiry imposed, one of the officers concerned ap is someone of experience and impartiality. plied to the Supreme Court of New South Wales for writs to prevent the board and the The Public Service Association of New magistrate from proceeding further on his South Wales is at present holding its con findings. This is the usual procedure when vention. It has been consulted in the matter there is some doubt. and has indicated concurrence in the pro posed amendments. That occurred before The applications were heard by the Court the present convention took place. It has of Appeal on 6th June last, and the effect been decided not to proceed by way of of the judgment given on 2nd August is that formal charges against the three prison offi the Public Service Board bas power to ap cers associated with the incident involving point an officer other than a board member the escape of a prisoner from Parramatta to conduct an .inquiry under the Public Ser Gaol and they will not be affected by the vice Act only where the officer charged has provisions of the bill. Honourable members been suspended. This is where the techni will note that sections 56 and 57 of the Act cality arises. It follows from the decision appear in the bill in a re-written form. This that where the officer charged is not sus has been done to overcome technical diffi pended the board itself must conduct the culties. For some years now, as a result of inquiry-a nice legal point. The result amendments made from time to time, the seems to be that the many inquiries that need has existed to clarify the wording of have been conducted over the years by sections 56 and 57, which relate to discip persons other .than board members where linary matters, and the opportunity has been the officers charged were not suspended taken to re-write these two sections. I have were invalid technically speaking. Occasions had a close look at this and have had advice do arise where it is not necessary or desir on it. The sole purpose of the re-writing is able to suspend an officer charged with an to give greater clarity to this portion of the offence under the Act ·and where the board Act and to simplify procedures generally. considers it appropriate to appoint some This bill is more of a machinery measure person other than a board member to con than anything else. I commend the bill tor duct .an inquiry into the charge. No one the favourable consideration of both sides wants •a sirtuation where every time an of the House. officer is charged he has to be suspended. A suspension cis a mark against an officer. Mr HILLS (Phillip), Leader of the Oppo The method proposed here for dealing with sition [5.22]: I am sure that members of a charge is more satisfactory to the officer the Government, yourself, Mr. Speaker, and concerned. the Premier and Treasurer particularly, would have an appreciation that it is a little The bill validates the action taken by the difficult to stand in one's place and debate Public Service Board in the past in appoint a measure in circumstances such as these ing persons other than board members to where honourable members on this side of conduct inquiries under the Act where the the House have just received a copy of the officers charged were not suspended, and bill. I indicated at the introductory stage provides for the board to be able to do so that we had had the opportunity to discus~ in the future. The practice of delegation in the proposed measure with the officers of 4844 Public Service Bill [ASSEMBLY] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill the Public Service Association who indicated are prepared to acknowledge that this hill that it was intended to seek these amend takes the Aborigines a step along the way. ments, which had their full support, as the We submit that it is a small step, a timid Premier indicated at the introductory stage. step and a faltering step. Notwithstanding We were aware that a technicality had the Minister's dressing·up of the proposals, arisen which revolved around three prison the bill is something of an empty gesture officers and that it was necessary to clarify on the part of the Government. It is empty the situation. for two reasons, the first being that negotia tions are currently taking place between the I said at the introductory stage that the Commonwealth Minister for Aboriginal effect of a legal decision was that when Affairs and the New South Wales Minister somebody was appointed by the Public Ser for Youth and Community Services for the vice Board to hold an inquiry it was not handing over to the Commonwealth the possible for that appointed person to deal responsibility for Aboriginal advancement. with employees still in the service. In our If agreement is reached it will mean the view it would be a ridiculous situation that Commonwealth will take over control of an employee would have to be dismissed or Aboriginals in New South Wales from 1st suspended so that a person appointed by the July of this year. In the intervening period board could deal with his case. The bill the provisions of the bill would barely have rectifies that anomaly and validates what had an opportunity to become known, let has been done when in similar circum alone be operative. We would have con stances on previous occasions these persons fusion compounded if this legislation were have been appointed. The proposals in the being implemented at the same time as a bill have the complete support and concur take·over by the Commonwealth Govern rence of the Public Service Association. As ment is taking place. This Parliament the Premier has pointed out, the opportunity would be saddling the Commonwealth with has been taken to re-enact sections 56 and grossly inadequate legislation which the 57 to deal with questions of definition. Op· Commonwealth either would have to undo portunity has been taken to clarify the posi· completely in the future or drastically alter. tion and this is a measure of a machinery nature which has the complete support of The second reason why I suggest members of the Opposition. this bill is an empty gesture is the lack of consultation with groups interested in Motion agreed to. Aboriginal land rights and the suspicion with Bill read a second time. which the bill is regarded by Aborigines, individually and as organized groups. At COMMITTEE AND ADOPTION OF REPORT the introductory stage I asked the Minister Bill reported from Committee without to allow sufficient time for people to become amendment, and report adopted on motion aware of the provisions of the bill and to by Sir Robert Askin. offer suggestions for its improvement, although I believe that the only way to THIRD READING improve this bill would be to take it away Bill read a third time, on motion by Sir and redraft it. The Minister has received Robert Askin. requests from the Council of Churches for time to examine the bill and make recom mendations for its improvement. Aborigin ABORIGINES (AMENDMENT) BILL es and their organizations are almost com SECOND READING pletely in the dark as to the bill's provisions Debate resumed (from 5th April, vide and have had no opportunity to study it and page 4524) on motion by Mr Waddy: declare an attitude. The bill has been That this bill be now read a second time. brought before us in an atmosphere of dis Mr KEARNS (Bankstown) [5.28]: The trust. For that reason I intend to move at claim by Aborigines for land rights is long the appropriate time that the second reading standing and members of the Opposition of the bill take place in six months. Aborigines (Amendment) Bill U1 APR., 1973] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill 4845 It appears that in New South Wales in all vice Board was that this would be best but a few cases the Aboriginal reserves are achieved by control and separation. In not associated with the tribal background 1940 the Aborigines Protection Board was of the Aborigine but have grown and de superseded by the Aborigines Welfare Board veloped from missions and from areas where and, although some work was done to im a group of Aboriginal families have settled prove reserves, the policy of developing self as they were pushed off the land with the contained and self-supporting Aboriginal advent of the white settler. The Aboriginal village communities did not make any pro reserve system in New South Wales seems gress and was eventually abandoned. With to stem from a private mission established the Welfare Board encouraging Aborigines in 1874 on the Murray River by Daniel to leave reserves there developed over the Matthews who was later supported by the years a policy of welfare that attempted to Reverend J. B: Gribble in a campaign to assist Aborigines not only on reserves but have extensive grants of land made available throughout the community. in the interior, and for Government funds to be provided to support mission stations. Gradually, with the reduction and event ual elimination of segregated schools, the Of this, Reverend Gribble said: granting of social service benefits, and more Thus much could be done to wipe out that homes for Aborigines being built in the long-standing disgrace, the unjustifiable neglect towns, the importance of the reserve dim of the heathen in our midst. inished. That does not mean that the re We may not now consider the Aborigines serve was no longer part of the Aboriginal as heathens but we are still trying spas background. Many are still used by people modically to wipe out the effect of long who were born and lived most of their life standing neglect. By 1880 a few small re in the immediate area. It is quite common serves where Aborigines might camp if they to find family names scattered through a chose had been declared. Also camps were district with a line of kinship running located on properties where Aborigines through each family right back to the re worked and lived under some degree of serve. In many cases the Aboriginal popu patronage from the property owner. The lation has strong ties with the district in year 1881 saw the appointment of George which it lives. Though the reserves still play Thornton, a former mayor of Sydney, as an important part in community life of the protector of Aborigines and in 1882 the Aborigine their role is diminishing as the first parliamentary inquiry into Aborigines Aborigine becomes less segregated from the on mission stations was held. That inquiry rest of the community. In the main, re was carried out by a member of the Legis serves were created by administrative lative Council and the inspector general of decisions of Government. It is indeed time police. The inquiry agreed with the protec we gave to the Aborigine some control of tor, who had asserted: the future of the reserves, some authority That it would be wise and beneficial that to say what land will be disposed of and reserves of suitable land should be set apart what land will be acquired for Aborigines' for the use of the Aborigines for the purpose of use; in fact they are entitled to land rights, forming houses, cultivation and production of grain, vegetables, fruit, etc., for their own con but does this bill go that far? sumption: this would prove a powerful means We should look at what this bill in fact of domesticating, civilizing and making them comfortable. gives to the Aborigine. First, it recon stitutes the Aborigines Advisory Council, A board for the protection of Aborigines replacing the Director of Aborigine Welfare, was appointed in 1883 and set about estab three Aborigines appointed by the Minister lishing more reserves with such enthusiasm and six elected Aborigines by a council of that the number increased from 18 in 1883 nine elected Aborigines. It naturally fol to 170 in 1910. By 1938 following a Public lows that the present six electorates will be Service Board inquiry we were prepared to aim for the gradual assimilation of Abori increased to nine. But, is this sufficient? gines into the economic and social life of the One of the criticisms of the present set up community. The view of the Public Ser- is the inability of the elected representative 4'846 Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill to report back to the electors. The size of influence of the Director of Aboriginal existing electorates has been questioned but, Welfare or his department-or indeed of tbe more important, the lack of association Minister. We are strongly of the opinion or, for want of a better word relationship that the bill should provide for this. Also -between the representative and his electors we hold the view that the advisory council has been a matter of great concern. Though should more fully represent the Aboriginal nine electorates are an improvement ·on six, communities. many of the drawbacks of the existing sys tem remain. Twelve or even fifteen elec This bill will establish an Aboriginal torates throughout New South Wales would Lands Trust, vesting in the trust certain be a vast improvement permitting a greater authority and powers. The persons forming degree of community representation. the lands trust will be identical with the per sons elected to the Aborigines Advisory Such community representation is im Council. Proposed new section lOn will portant to the Aborigine, who does not authorize the trust to appoint and employ easily accept leadership from other Abo such officers as are necessary to enable the rigines whose background, association and trust to discharge its powers, authorities, community contacts are different from his. duties and functions. I can appreciate that Some evidence of this non-acceptance is it is desirable to allow the trust to make its discernable in relation to the present Abo own decisions in this matter of employing rigines Advisory Council. It should be a officers, but if the Parliament is giving the matter for concern that only 15 per cent of trust functions to discharge, it should not the known Aborigines in New South Wales direct how it will or will not carry out those have registered as voters and of that 15 per functions. The aim should be to ensure that cent only 4 7 per cent did in fact exercise a the Aborigines who constitute the trust exer vote at the last election of the Aborigines cise their own initiative, form their own Advisory Council. If this is reflected policies and make arrangements for the im in future elections one will be forced to the plementation of those policies. The Opposi conclusion that neither the Aborigines Ad tion is concerned that the word "may" can visory Council or the Aboriginal Lands be an inhibiting factor in proposed new Trust will be truly representative of the section lOn. Under this section pressure Aborigine in New South Wales. What steps could be exerted to prevent the trust are being taken to obtain registration and to appointing employees even when it con encourage a representative vote. Why will sidered such appointments necessary. In our the Aborigine not register and vote? These view the word "shall" would ·give greater questions must be answered if true repre protection to the trust and more adequately sentation is to be achieved. meet the needs of this section. We regret that the stronger word was not used in the Is the answer that there should be a new bill. system, more in keeping with Aboriginal ·custom :for the election of leaders? We must Proposed new section 1Oa ( 1) provides look beyond the present system, which the that the trust will open and maintain in the Aborigine does not understand or accept. name of the trust an account or accounts It will be necessary for the advisory council at a bank carrying on business in New South to have a secretary to take minutes and Wales. For obvious reasons, the Opposition carry out normal administrative work. Pro feels that any bank account should be vision is contained in the bill for the secre tary to be an officer of the department opened at the Rural Bank of New South concerned with Aboriginal welfare. As the Wales. Primarily this is the State bank, and council will also be the Aboriginal Lands government instrumentalities should be re Trust it is logical for the chief executive quired to bank with it. Further, as it is a officers of the trust to fill a similar role with bank with a long history of service to the tbe advisory coul'lcil. There could then be rural communities, one could expect that it no suggestion that the advisory council was would have a knowledge ~f the problems in any way being influenced by or under tbe confronting Aborigines, and would have a MrKearns] Aborigines {Amendment) Bifl [11 Al>R., 1973] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill 4847 sympathetic approach to them. If the Gov velopment, or where mineral rights could ernment does not agree to a postponement be exploited to the advantage of people of the bill we shall move an amendment in other than Aborigines. If necessary we in the Committee to effect this policy. tend to move an amendment to prevent any exploitation of the trust or Aborigines. Similarly, proposed new section lOG (3) requires that the Minister may, ·out of Section 101 ( 2) is in our opinion open to moneys provided by Parliament, pay to the misunderstanding; in fact, this happened trust such amount as he thinks fit. This amongst our members who were considering leaves a great amount of freedom to the the bill. We understand the position to be Minister to make available or withhold that no other Act over-rides the Aborigines funds, as he thinks fit. If the Minister does Act in allowing the Aborigine complete con not like the composition of the trust or does trol over the mineral rights in the property not approve some action or decision of the controlled by the trust. If this is so, our pro trust, he can starve it of the funds neces posed amendment to this section will not be sary for it to discharge its function. This necessary, but because we think the words could permit the Minister to use proposed "the Act" on line 23 of page 11 cause mis new section lOK to declare that the trust understanding we shall seek in Committee has ceased to function. This subsection to substitute "that Act" for "the Act". Pro should be more specific. If the bill is dealt posed new section !OK covers the failure of with today, the Opposition intends to re the trust to function. Subsection ( 1) gives move any doubt about the availability of sweeping powers to the Minister to recom funds by moving an amendment to provide mend to the Governor that he declare that that the Minister shall pay to the trust such the trust has ceased to function. Accepting amounts ·of money as are necessary to permit the principle of ministerial responsibility, it it to carry out its proper functions. seems that there should be some report to Parliament to ensure the closest possible Proposed new section l'OI ( 1) confers on scrutiny of the Minister's action. Proposed the trust powers with respect to property. new section 10K (2) provides that an order In general, it can do with its property any under subsection ( 1 ) may be limited in its thing that can be lawfully done; it can sell, operation according to time, place or cir exchange, lease, mortgage or otherwise deal cumstance. This does not ensure a limited with its property; it can improve al1ly land maximum period. Much depends on the vested in it or explore for and exploit min goodwill of the Minister. Many Aborigines ·erals and natural resources vested in it. But suspect that the goodwill of the present Min from what the Minister said at the intro ister is not great. There should be firm pro ductory stage, it appears that reserves are vision for the appointment of a new trust, excepted unless the Minister arranges with and, if we have to, the Opposition will seek the Minister for Lands, under subsection lA to amend this section. of section 17, for the revocation of the reservation and the granting ·of the land to Tucked away on page 13 of the biil is the trust with certain pr-ovisions that are, in proposed new subsection ( 1B) of section 1 7 the main, of a machinery nature. I ask the of the principal Act. This subsection seeks Minister in his reply to .explain this, for it is to reserve the rights and powers of the creating some confusion. This provision Crown with respect to gold mines and silver .could be considered contrary to the aim of mines. This means that any gold or silver the control and action by the lands trust of a found on reserves belongs not to Aborigines completely independent nature, but we agree but to the Crown. If we are anxious to give ilihat wha't amounts to approval by two Min Aborigines land right, if on their land they isters of the Crown before the revocation of can explore for and exploit or cause to be a reserve takes place lis desirable to prevent, explored for or :exploited mineral resources say, a il!rime tourist .area like WaU:aga Lake ·or other natural resources, why do we re being filched from the lands trust by some serve gold and silver rta the Crown? There high-pressure tactics, which are not com seems no logic in this reservation. As many pletely unknown in the field of land de- metals are as precious as gold and silver, 4848 Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill why pick out these? The Opposition feels Government, thus improving the legislation. that if the Aboriginal Lands Trust strikes We give this undertaking to the Aborigines gold or even silver, it should obtain the of New South Wales: we shall closely benefit of such a find, to be used for the examine the Act and the effectiveness of benefit of Aborigines throughout New South Aboriginal land trusts when there is a Labor Wales. government in New South Wales to ensure that the Aborigines of this State have land I said earlier that the Opposition considers rights in practice and not only in theory. this bill to be something of an empty ges I therefore move: ture on the part of the Government. Many things are not included in the bill which are That the Question be amended by leaving out the word "now" with a view to adding the important if the Act is to be worthwhile. No words "this day six months". provision is made for reports from the trust to the Aboriginal community. There is no Mr F. J. WALKER (Georges River) provision that land can be sold only on the [5.54]: The refusal to recognize and grant unanimous vote of the trust, or for the sale land rights to Aborigines ii1 New South of land to be in balance with the purchase Wales has led to a deep festering sense of of land. What action, if any, will the trust injustice and resentment among Aboriginal take to set up co-operatives? people. This parliamentary inertia can be explained only in terms of white prejudice The February issue of New Dawn, a and racism. The racist syndrome has en magazine for Aborigines put out by the dured from the day of first settlement in Department of Youth and Community Ser New South Wales. Our forefathers held vices, said, "The effects of this legislation and practised highly objectionable racist and will be eventually to place existing recog ethnocentric attitudes. The situation was nized reserves throughout the State under gravely exacerbated by the colonial situation. the ownership and control of an all Aborig In our so-called enlightened society the inal lands trust". Of course, existing reserves frankly brutal, contemptuous and murder amount to some 6,000 acres including ous racism of the 19th century has been swamp land, graveyards and other areas of supplanted by practices and attitudes that doubtful use. I concede that some of the may be more subtle in their application but reserves are also most desirable land. That are nevertheless just as vicious and inhuman. figure of 6,000 acres has been strongly called into question because much of it is subject Most Australians will indignantly deny to housing agreements and leases. We are that they are racists yet studies from anthro of opinion that the area of land available to pologists and psychiatrists confirm that Aboriginal trusts will be about 1,700 acres. many white Australians still consciously or However, if one accepts the statement by the some unconsciously adopt racist attitudes Minister that 6,000 acres are available, this towards Aborigines. This statement remains contrasts with the position that existed a true for some members of this House, few years ago when there were about 14,000 especially the members of the Country acres of reserves in New South Wales. So the Party. Documentary proof of the validity Aborigine is again on the losing end. We of what I say is embodied in the report of may see him in the future buying back land the Joint Parliamentary Select Committee that he has lost. on the Welfare of Aborigines in 1967, which had as its central theme a policy of assimila The sincerity of the Government will be tion which to me is unpardonable and un judged by the amount of finance available mitigated racism. The racist syndrome now to the lands trust for its proper functioning. manifests itself in the myth that Aborigines Let me say we are far from satisfied with are an incompetent and innately inferior the bill. That comment reflects the attitude race. They are unreasonably regarded as of the majority of Aborigines in New South socially different and socially sick. Surveys Wales. If the Government does not accept show that the Aboriginal image in the minds the Opposition's proposal for deferment, we of a great many white Australians is that hope that the amendments we propose to the Aborigine is dirty, drunken and irre move in Committee will be accepted by the sponsible. I am continually saddened by MrKearns] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [11 ApR., 1973] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill 4849 people who, oblivious of the cultural and Crown; third, Aboriginal consent for, and socio-historical explanations of the Abori benefit from, mining and other develop ginal situation, try to explain the Aborigine's ment of all Aboriginal land; fourth, estab current low socio-economic status and re lishment of an Aboriginal land rights claims treatism on the basis that it is self-evident court to facilitate the awarding of compen that Aborigines are an inferior people. sation to Aborigines where Aboriginal lands This brings me to the question of land have. been alienated; and fifth, the setting rights which is close to this problem of up of an Aboriginal land trust fund to ac racism. Anthropologists have been able to cept and allocate compensation or rent for document in great detail the traditional all the land of Australia alienated from Aboriginal attachment to the land. Irrefut Aborigines. able evidence has been produced by ex This brings me to the bill. The issue perts on Aborigines to this effect-notably before us is to decide whether the measure by Professor R. M. Berndt in the recent satisfies the needs and protects the rights Gove peninsula case. Only bigots and of Aborigines in respect of land rights. The vested interests would try to deny the truth Minister's publication, New Dawn, of Feb of this propostion so far as full-bloods and ruary, 1973, announced with screaming tribal Aborigines are concerned. However, headlines "Land Rights for New South few of the 24,000 Aborigines in New South Wales"-- Wales are full-bloods and this fact is seized Mr SINGLETON: On a point of order. upon by those who would deny Aborigines The honourable member for Georges River land rights by way of justification for the has cast aspersions upon me and my col white man's greed. This point of view is leagues by referring to members of the again exemplified in the 1967 select com Country Party as racists. As the honour mittee's report, which pragmatically stated able member has not substantiated that as that in due course Aboriginal reserves sertion I feel that he ought to withdraw should disappear. The land rights survey it. If anyone in this Chamber is low, dirty conducted by Peter Tobin, Billie Craigie, and full of wind it is the honourable mem Garry Williams and Lincoln Wood in May, ber for Georges River. I submit that he 1972, covering some 4,000 miles and a ought to withdraw the remark that he has dozen reserves on the North Coast and in made about me and my County Party col the north-west, is to my mind a far more leagues. authoritative document and infinitely more valuable in assessing and appreciating the Mr AcTING-SPEAKER (Mr DARBY): cultural heritage and historical experiences Order! The word "racist" has not been listed of the Aboriginal people. among the epithets that are regarded as breaching the standards and traditions of The conclusion to be drawn from Mr the House. If the honourable member fOJ Tobin's treatise is that the issue of land Clarence thinks that the word racist is in rights holds a position of profound im appropriate to him as a member of the portance in the cultural, emotional, social Country Party, he will have an opportunity and political lives of Aborigines in New of explaining that situation later in the South Wales today. The conviction in the debate. minds of Aborigines of the morality and justice of their claim of land rights has [Mr Acting-Speaker left the chair at 6.1 p.m. naturally found expression in agitation and The House resumed at 7.30 p.m.] demands. The policy of the Federal Council Mr F. J. WALKER: Before the adjourn for the Advancement of Aborigines and ment I had said that the Minister's publica Torres Strait Islanders, as expressed to Mr tion, New Dawn, of February, 1973, an Justice Woodward on 3rd March of this nounced with screaming headlines "Land year, is typical of Aboriginal thinking. This Rights for New South Wales ..." and then contained five points: first, Aboriginal went on to say: ownership of existing Aboriginal reserves; During the coming session of Parliament, second, recognition of Aboriginal ownership legislation granting land rights to Aborigines of traditional tribal land now owned by the in New South Wales will be introduced. 304 4850 Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill To the Minister's everlasting discredit, this member for Georges River to range far and bill does no such thing. Under this bill, not wide, but the bill deals with the formation one acre of land, not one ounce of dirt is of a lands trust and certainly has no relev vested in the Aboriginal people of New ance to what the honourable member is South Wales. The bill is nothing more than saying at present. I ask that he be confined a deceitful and cruel confidence trick intro to dealing with the measures in the bill. duced by a hypocritical and cynical Govern ment in an endeavour to tie the hands of Mr ACTING-SPEAKER (Mr DARBY): the federal Government which will be Order! It is true that the bill covers a wide assuming responsibility for aboriginal affairs range of activities and therefore it must be in New South Wales later this year. All this expected that an honourable member speak bill achieves is the constitution of an all ing at the second-reading stage will draw Aboriginal corporate trust empowered to freely on illustrative material. Although it acquire and deal with land. The trust is is true that the honourable member for totally dependent upon the Minister's dis Georges River has been rather stringent and cretion in granting it lands and funds. The pungent in his remarks, it is competent for Government is under no obligation whatso other members, if they disagree with what ever to provide any land or money. At the the honourable member for Georges River very best, Aborigines may now have future says, to contribute to the debate at a later land rights if the Government sees fit to stage. I suggest that the honourable member grant them. for Georges River resume his speech, taking care to keep his remarks within the con I believe that the bill is a studied insult fines of the bill. to the Aboriginal people and still leaves them totally dependent upon the goodwill Mr F. J. WALKER: When the Minister's of a man who has shown little evidence of a action is brought to the attention of the genuine interest in their problems or of any House, he commits the low and unpardon competence in the administration of his able act of revealing to the public details portfolio. How can the Aboriginal people of a children's court hearing which are by trust a man whose only excuse for the law confidential. criminally high morbidity and mortality Mr WADDY: On a point of order. To say rates among Aboriginal children in his care that I made revelations to the House is a is that there are no statistics available from deliberate lie. It did not happen. the health authorities? Surely any Christian administrator with a heart and conscience, Mr F. J. WALKER: I was in the Cham or with the slightest vestige of human ber. decency, could not stand by and allow the Mr WADDY: That is no criterion. You statistics to remain at their current level. All the Government has seen fit to do to have no regard for the truth. The matter of meet the crisis is to supply a handful of children's court proceedings has nothing to community nurses, one health worker and a do with this bill. The bill deals with the re couple of health centres-an indictment on forming of the advisory council and the the Liberal and Country parties and a establishment of a lands trust. Actions in monument to the callousness and incompet the children's court have no relevance to ence of the Minister at the table. How could this bill. Aborigines trust a man who sicks his officers on to the children of a woman who went Mr F. J. WALKER: On the point of to protest at the Aboriginal embassy in order. The point I am making is that the Canberra-- bill does not give to Aborigines any land Mr WADDY: On a point of order. The rights. The Aborigines must rely on the provisions of this bill have nothing to do Minister to give to the trust those rights. with my officers having picked on a woman The question then arises whether they can with children. I have been quiet and toler rely on the Minister. I am giving this illus ant and I have allowed the honourable trative material to allow the House to judge Mr F. J. Walker) Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [11 APR., 1973] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill 4851 whether Aborigines can rely on the Min rent lease and those upon which Housing ister to give them land rights. I suggest that Commission of New South Wales or I am in order and well within the ambit of Commonwealth-assisted homes are erected. the bill. In cold statistics, this means that in a State that boasts 200 million acres of land, on an Mr AcTING-SPEAKER: Order! As I said area basis something like St thousandths of earlier, this bill has wide implications. How one per cent, will go to Aborigines. The ever, the statement by the Minister is quite whites are to have an average of fifty acres correct-the bill has certain defined objects. each and the black people will be the proud The honourable member for Georges River possessors in this State of about 11 16th of must deal with those objects and use illus an acre each-almost enough to swing a trative material very briefly indeed. cat in, but not quite. Mr F. J. WALKER: I shall give one fur By glaring contrast Queensland has 5 ther short illustration and then return to million acres of Aboriginal reserves, South the provisions of the bill. How could Abo Australia 18 million acres of Aboriginal rigines have confidence in an administrator reserves and the Northern Territory has who tolerates a position where the Minister 60 million acres. In this State there is a of Justice reports that the best way for an miserable 1, 700 acres for 24,000 people. Aboriginal to get an education is to go to The Minister's paltry gesture is an insult gaol? and will no doubt be treated as such. The Mr DoYLE: Is that representative of the bill ignores and the Minister rejects Aborig attitude of the Minister? inal claims to lands revoked up to 1969 or areas in which aborigines live which are Mr F. J. WALKER: That is the report not recognized as reserves. Most of Cabbage of the Minister of Justice. Aboriginal Tree Island is in that situation. The 1964 leaders continually complain about the Min annual report of the board reveals that the ister's blustering, bullying and bulldozing of total reserve acreage was 13,034 acres. Aborigines at meetings and have expressed This means that since the Liberal Party a lack of confidence in the Minister's ad came to power more that half of the ministration. In the past few days I have Aboriginal reserves has been revoked. spoken to at least a hundred Aborigines who have expressed that point of view. The No power is given to the trust in respect Minister is not dealing with the Luftwaffe of traditional sacred sites, customary land now, but with a gentle race of people who or land possessed by prescriptive title. There are deserving of courtesy and consideration. is no suggestion in the bill of compensation Nowhere in this bill is recognition given to or an Aboriginal land rights claims court. the morality and justice of the Aborigines' In my opinion there should be incorporated claim to land rights. in this bill an exhaustive schedule of Aborig inal lands to vest in the trust. A survey More important to Aborigines than any would take some time. That in itself is a grant of land or cash is statutory recogni good enough reason to delay the second tion of the principles for which they are reading of this bill for six months. fighting. Nowhere in this bill is it stated that Aborigines are to be given ownership I shall deal with the composition of the of existing reserves. On the contrary, New council, which is the trust. My first point is Dawn, the official publication, warns that that two major bodies have arisen. The "no reserve will automatically come under existing council is unrepresentative and there the control of the trust". The truth of the · is no feed-back from the council to Aborig matter is that the Minister intends to grant inal people. It is important to look at the to the trust only a miserable and pitiful figures of the last elections in relation to the 1, 700 acres out of 6,000 acres of reserves council. Out of a total of 24,000 Aborig ines some 6,000 live in the Sydney metro remaining. I challenge the Minister to deny politan area. that. Four classes of reserves will be ex empted-principally those subject to cur- Mr CRAWFORD: More like 20,000. 4852 Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill Mr DoYLE: The honourable member educational attainments. The only people should get his facts right. who will vote in a postal voting system are the people the Minister wants in the coun Mr F. J. WALKER: These figures were cil-people he can dominate and with whom given to me by the assistant director of the he can do the sorts of things he wants. department. They would hardly act in the interests of the Mr CRAWFORD: They are wrong. Aboriginal people. I feel that to use the council as the basis of the trust is to start Mr F. J. WALKER: I think the figure is off badly. The council does not have the probably closer to 20,000. At the census support of the Aboriginal people-it has only 6,000 Aboriginals were prepared to say their distrust. they lived in that area. Only eighty-three out of 6,000, that is, not even lt per cent, I suggest that surveys of the Aborigines voted. That made the ballot a complete joke. should be taken to find out what system they Even Ministers on the other side of the want. I have my views but I do not wish to House would not suggest that was demo impose them on the Aboriginal people-! cratic. The council is an advisory body and do not see why I should. The South Aus is generally regarded as being in the Minis tralian system seems to work well. It is not ter's pocket. It does not report to the peo democratic, but we are not talking about ple, who have no confidence in it. I cannot democracy-we are talking about the needs blame the Aboriginals for not voting in of people. In South Australia membership relation to it. The old committee had six is on a regional basis, very similar to the elected members. The number is now to be Maori High Council in New Zealand or the nine. They are to be drawn from unknown New South Wales Land Rights Council. electorates with indeterminate boundaries. Three or four hundred people are at the Voting is to be by post. The bill imposes conference and they work on a regional on the Aboriginal people a foreign system basis. It is not like the position in New of government for they are used to electing South Wales where the Minister domineers leadership, not by this sort of ballot, but on and bullies the people all the time. a local area basis. The New South Wales Mr ACTING-SPEAKER (Mr DARBY): Land Rights Council is an example of how Order! I point out to the honourable mem this can succeed. The old scheme was such ber for Georges River that he is talking that the six members were elected for areas about an objective proposition before the drawn from the State electoral boundaries House, the Aborigines (Amendment) Bill. and hardly recognizing Aboriginal demo If the honourable member feels that the graphy in New South Wales. I understand Minister in charge of the affairs of Abori there are to be two members for the metro· gines does domineer and bully Aborigines, politan area, though on a population basis there are forms of this House whereby such that area is proba:bly entitled to rut least three criticism can be levelled. I say to the mem representatives. ber that he must restrict himself to con The other objection I have is to the postal sidering the virtues and the objective nature vote. That is completely ineffective for of this bill and must not indulge in personal Aboriginal people. The Minister has com attacks on the Minister. mented that more Aborigines voted in the Mr F. J. WALKER: May I now deal postal vote than normally vote in postal with the question of alienation of rights: I vote elections. This is not correct. He have discussed this matter with a number worked his figures on the basis of the num of people, including the World Council of ber of Aboriginals registered to vote, not Churches, which is a radical body, the Fed the number in New South Wales. Surely it eral Council for the Advancement of Abo can be appreciated that if in the trade unions rigines and Torres Strait Islanders, and a only 10 per cent or 20 per cent of the mem- number of organizations of Aborigines bers vote in postal ballots, the problem something like 100 altogether. They have would be greater in respect of the Abori all expressed the point of view to me that ginal people who do not have the same as far as those outside the metropolitan Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [11 APR., 1973] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill 4853 area are concerned, Aborigines are opposed We must consider also the question of to the concept of alienation of Aboriginal civil rights. In the United States of America land rights. legislation relating to indigenous people in cludes provisions relating to civil rights and Mr WADDY: Have you been outside the the self-determination of blacks in black metropolitan area and talked to them? areas. The Minister has not included any Mr F. J. WALKER: I come from a thing of that nature in this bill. We should country area where there are lots of Abo consider also the discrimination against rigines. I have been on student rides around metropolitan Aborigines. They will not get the country. · I know something about these much out of this bill-practically nothing. areas. There is a strong feeling in the Abo Little land in Sydney, apart from a small riginal community about this matter. The area at La Perouse, is available to them, and that has houses on it. This bill should be Aborigines do not believe in the concept of delayed for six months. In fact, the Govern alienation of land. The matter should be ment should allow the Commonwealth to looked into and considered further. Though take over this whole project. At least the this is not the point of view that may be Commonwealth would do a competent job. necessarily expressed in the metropolitan In the meantime the Government should ask area, country Aborigines hold fears about the Aboriginal people of this State what they this question of alienation. The bill should really want. The Government should ask be delayed to look into their requirements the people who are to be directly affected in this respect. With regard to the general what they want, instead of giving them a question of consultation, I put it to the miserable 1,700 acres. The Government House that the Minister has not consulted should do something worthwhile and make the Aboriginal people of New South Wales. New South Wales the leading State in this He has consulted a public body and he put field of endeavour, instead of introducing a the bill before that body as a fait accompli. mocking and farcical bill. We know that when it came before the ad visory council suggestions were put forward Mr BROWN (Raleigh) [7.52]: I am but I would like the Minister to say whether pleased to have the opportunity to join in he accepted any of those suggestions. the debate on this bill. It is a real first step Mr WADDY: You should try to stick to towards giving recognition to Aboriginal the truth. people. I deplore the contribution to this debate by the honourable member for Mr F. J. WALKER: You will tell us Georges River who seemed determined to about the recommendations? try to destroy the character of the Minister at the table. Mr WADDY: I will show you up for the liar you are. Mr PETERSEN: That would not be diffi cult to do. Mr F. J. WALKER: I know the Minister accepted certain recommendations by offi Mr BROWN: That is a matter of opinion. cers of his department-very competent men I should like to see any member honestly too, I may add. The Minister did not con and without political bias say something sult the Aboriginal people of New South detrimental about the character of this Wales. They did not know about the bill Minister. If any honourable member can until it hit this House. Not many of them do that let him do so on the floor of the read the publication New Dawn. World House instead of making insinuations. It is Council of Churches authorities associated quite obvious to me that the honourable with Aborigines' welfare know nothing member for Georges River has endeavoured about it. The Federal Council for the Ad to perpetrate a cruel hoax on Aborigines. vancement of Aborigines and Torres Strait He has told us that this bill will not do Islanders did not know anything about it. anything for them. It is the first bill ever The Aboriginal people of New South Wales introduced to give them an opportunity to knew absolutely nothing about the Govern do something in their own right. I shall ment's proposal to enact this legislation. touch on some of the ways in which this bill 4854 Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill will help Aborigines. The honourable form but to try and incite them to do things member for Georges River has given so that those might get publicity when other Aborigines false information and he has wise their own ability would not warrant it. incited them to find something wrong with the bill. He told us he had spoken with The Minister has been to roy electorate Aboriginal leaders but I should like to know and I have taken him to coastal areas and who those Aboriginal leaders are. he has met Aboriginal people. I am de lighted to say that the Minister has been I have spoken to Aboriginal leaders about well received by the Aborigines at Bell this bill. I do not think there are many elec brook, Green Hill and in homes he visited torates in this State that have wihin their in the Kempsey area. He spoke to many boundaries more Aborigines then the elec Aborigines and obviously they were pleased torate of Raleigh. I have talked to people to meet him. He was well received by these about this bill and about what they want people and he showed them that he had a to do for the future. Recently the Minister heart for them. The Minister wants these for Lands withdrew land that had been people to have a dignity. He is carrying out offered for sale as Crown land. The Minis his work on a solid basis, in great contra ter for Youth and Community Services was distinction to the grandstanding that has able to negotiate with the Department of been displayed by the upstart Minister in Lands and have certain land handed over to Canberra who has proved himself to be the his department which in turn has made it most hypocritical of all the new federal available to a group of Aborigines in Kemp Ministers. The federal Minister for Abo sey headed by Mrs Duroux. That group has riginal Affairs, the Hon. Gordon Bryant, formed the Thungutti Association which only a year or so ago was ordered will farm this land which has alluvial soil out of Parliament by Mr Speaker. How and is located on the Lower Macleay at Kin ever, he refused to go and called upon his chella, the site of the former Kinchella muscle man in the form of the Minister Aboriginal boys home. for Minerals and Energy, the Hon. R. F. X. Connor, and the Minister for Urban and Mr KEARNS: The Minister wanted to close Regional Development, the Hon. Tom that down. Uren, to help him. The federal Minister Mr BROWN: The Minister has made it for Minerals and Energy was quite cor available on lease to Aboriginal people. The rectly and aptly described by the Premier honourable member for Bankstown should earlier today. The federal Minister for get his facts right. Aboriginal Affairs challenged the Speaker in the federal Parliament and said, "Come Mr KEARNS: The Minister did that only on, muscles will determine this Parliament". after protests had been lodged. Mr KEARNS: On a point of order. Dur Mr BROWN: That is not so. The Min ing the address by the honourable member ister made this land available on lease to for Georges River points of order were Aboriginal people and he has provided them taken on the pretence that he was straying with capital so that they may do something from the bill. I suggest that those same that they want to do. The Government points of order are quite valid in relation wants them to succeed. The honourable to what the honourable member for Raleigh member for Georges River rides on the is now saying. The honourable member for backs of the Aborigines in an endeavour to Raleigh is saying something that has no relevance to the bill or to the debate be gain political capital. At the present time fore the House. Aboriginal people and their doings are head line news throughout Australia. Aborigines Mr BRowN: On the point of order. I would suggest that what I am saying is most are used by persons such as the honourable relevant because the honourable member for member for Georges River for their own Georges River said quite soon after the din ends. The intentions of those persons are ner adjournment that this Government was not to benefit Aborigines in any shape or interfering with what the Commonwealth Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [11 APR., 1973] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill 4855 Government wanted to do in its takeover so that he can buy some petrol ·to campaign of Aboriginal affairs. I submit that I am for membership of the council. This is the entitled to reply to what was said by the type of people we are dealing with. honourable member for Georges River. Mr F. J. WALKER: How much did you Mr AcTING-SPEAKER (Mr DARBY): give him? Order! The point of order taken by the honourable member for Bankstown is dis Mr PETERSEN: Did you give him a dollar a day? missed. Mr BROWN: The Minister for Youth Mr BROWN: I probably gave him more and Community Services is doing something than you would, in your smart way. I do that is in great contra-distinction to the not have to declare to the honourable mem grandstanding of the federal Minister for ber for Illawarra what I have given. I have Aboriginal Affairs who unfortunately has had many of these people in my home, and been entrusted with the care of Aboriginal have given them meals and clothes, as well people at the federal level. It has been said as helping them with their children and that we have done nothing, but I ask the with housing. I ask the honourable member people who say this to compare the position for Illawarra to keep his mouth shut for a of Aborigines in New South Wales today while; he is a hypocritical pest. The coun with what it was under Labor administra cil will be a tremendously important body, tions, when they had the Aborigines Welfare and Parliament should give its members Board with its paternal outlook. Nothing every confidence that they will have the was done until this Government set up a opportunity to do the things they want to do. joint committee of both Houses of Parlia I hope they will still seek guidance when it ment to look into the problem. There has is needed. been a move forward. The Government The bill contains a provision for the est gave them an advisory committee for a start, ablishment of a trust, made up of elected and this legislation will give them a complete Aboriginal members, to take care of the Aborigines Advisory Council, constituted reserves. There might not be as many by elected Aborigines-not some who have hundreds of acres of land in New South been nominated and not under the care or Wales set aside for Aborigines as there are presidency of the Director of Aboriginal in South Australia and Western Australia. Welfare. The council will elect its chair However, to assess the position one must man from among its membership. Bill compare the Aboriginal people in New Cohen, who represents the Aboriginal people South Wales with the Aborigines in other in my electorate, is certainly fitted for this parts of Australia. Anyone who has had position. I have no doubt that many of the a little to do with Aborigines knows that others who will be elected to this advisory they come from a great number of different council will also have fine qualities. groups. Some who come from the top of Mr F. J. WALKER: How many votes did South Australia, the Northern Territory, he get? Western Queensland and the western parts of New South Wales are genuine, full Mr BROWN: I do not know how many blood Aborigines, who are completely votes he got, but I know that he is on the different in their ways and work from the advisory council at the present time. He is people who have come to live in the cities a fine citizen, who grew up on the land. He and towns, where they are engaged in vari ous industries. is a cattle man from the Upper Macleay and is doing a fine job for his people. On many It is quite common in Kempsey for weekends he comes to my home to discuss Aborigines to be doing a variety of jobs, such as working on the shire council and the problems of his people, including hous the municipal council, in the sawmills and ing, transport concessions, and other mat brickyards, or doing such things as driving ters. When his campaign is on he comes lorries. The women do domestic work; to see what I can do to give him a few bob some are engaged in nursing, I am delighted 4856 Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill to say; others are helping their own people he came from Kempsey, w.as the ·vice-captain in the field of teaching, although they might of Kempsey high school and played in the not be fully qualified teachers and would football team. At one stage he was in the not meet the standards of the Department Department of Agriculture, but I do not· of Education. All these things are wel know whether he is still there today. He come. For instance, at the Green Hill pre was certainly a fine young person. school the lady supervisor in charge works with the Aboriginal mothers who come each Joey Donovan went to the Macksville day to help. She gives them a confidence high school, was a member of the sUDf club, that they did not have before to help their went .to the Olympics and also to the Em own children and give them an opportunity pire Games, which are now known as the to learn from an early age. I am confident Commonwealth Games. Hector Thompson that these pre-schools are successful, and I was another 'boy from Kempsey. He was am confident that only good can flow from educated there, 'and won a title fight in the elimination of purely Aboriginal schools, Brisbane the other night. Some of these because when the Aboriginal children attend people are successful. Indeed, some of them normal schools as normal pupils, they will play with football teams in Sydney. Al progress well and be received by the young though, much to the chagrin of the Leader people in the kindergartens, primary of the Opposition, South Sydney is not doing schools and high schools, on the sport well this year, that rugby league team has ing fields, at high-school socials, and at been greatly helped over the years by Abo dances. They mix in a way that would never riginal players. I mention these matters to have been expected a few years ago. show that something is being done to qualify these people to .t;ake their places on the I am confident that the education that councils and the trusts that are being estab Aboriginal children will get in pre-schools, lished. I shall mention the subject of hous primary schools, and high schools, as well ing. as at the tertiary level at universities and Mr KEARNS: On a point of order. I sub technical colleges, will be of great benefit. mit that housing of Aborigines has nothing I am sure that increasing numbers of these to do with the bill. The honourable mem children will follow this course, and that this ber for Raleigh has strayed far afield for a will lead to the disappearance of many of considerable time, and I suggest, Mr Acting the present problems. We all regret that Speak!er, that you ask him to relate his more Aboriginal children do not go on to remarks to the bill. secondary education and to the higher fields of learning. A few years ago there was Mr AcTING-SPEAKER (Mr DARBY): none, but today there are some. In a matter Order! It will be recalled that during the of ten years, if these children are educated speech delivered by the honourable member in this way from their earliest days, there for Georges River a ruling was made from will be none of the discrimination that was the chair that the bill had wide implications, prevalent for many years, and the children and it was possible for members to draw will be able to take their place in the com upon a wide variety of material in orde,r to munity and be accepted. support their remarks. That ruling still holds good. The Chair, having been subject to I want to see young Aboriginal people two points of order already, and the speech employed in the shops, and in the banks of the honourable member for Raleigh hav if they want to work there. I want to see ing been interrupted, I am sure that the them employed in local government and in honourable member for Raleigh is aler.t on the public service. Only one or two the question of relevancy. · Aborigines are employed in the public ser vice of the State. Indeed, one Aborigine Mr BROWN: I was drawing attention to was working at Parliament House for years the importance of pre-schools, education with the Department of Public Works. and housing. I wish to mention health. l Another was Harry Penrith, who was a fine am mentioning matters that will bring thes~ citizen. I do not know wh~r~ he is t9day, but people up to a standard to enitble them to Mr Bro~nJ Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [11 APR., 1973] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill 4857 take their place on the councils and trusts will be able to continue his speech without that are to be established. It will be a sad interruption. Confidence will rest in him not day if the people in whom we are putting to stray from relevancy. this trust cannot successfully carry out this work because of the matters I have men Mr BROWN: On this question of acquir tioned. ing land and other property I point out that the Minister made it clear in his Before I touch on housing, education and second-reading speech that those who were other matters I shall complete what I had trustees of this land would have power to intended to say about the land available in dispose of it. It is quite possible that part South Australia, Western Australia and of the land will be disposed of for housing. the other States. For many years Abori I was stressing how important housing is ginal reserves have existed in those States. for these people. I have seen Aborigines A previous speaker referred to some mil graduate from slums on the Burnt Bridge lions of acres. I hope that New South reserve, or humpies in the bush at Green Wales, if the need arises, will provide agri Hill into homes known as transition homes. cultural land so that the Aborigines may A number still reside in them today. How follow that pursuit if they so wish. I shall ever, in Kempsey seventy-two Aboriginal now touch on the matter of housing and families are living in homes in virtually I point out how important it is to the wel every street in the municipality and are fare of these people in the community. being absorbed into the community. They have exactly the same type of cottage as Mr F. J. WALKER: On a point of order. any other applicant for a Housing Com In your wise ruling on the question of mission home would get, or they are living relevance you said that I was allowed lati in a home of their own, having raised tude and honourable members would be the money through the Minister's depart allowed to go further afield by way of illus ment to build or acquire a home. This tration, but the honourable member is now has made a great difference to these attempting to refer to housing, education people. They have been greatly helped by and health. He has stated that he proposes the department and the fine people who to refer to all those matters. He may refer counselled them and encouraged them in to them by way of illustration if he has their budgeting. Over a number of years something to illustrate-in other words they have not had the experience of bud something in the bill that relates to hous geting for rent, electric light or firewood. ing and these other matters. The bill re Today when a little more money is avail lates to a trust for land and has nothing able to some of those who are engaged in to do with housing, pre-school education vocations that bring in a wage equivalent or health. I submit that, unless the hon to a white worker's wage for similar work, ourable member can pinpoint something budgeting becomes important. that he is illustrating, on your ruling his remarks are irrelevant. The Aborigines are also being helped greatly in the field of education. At one time Mr WADDY: On the point of order. I a child had to be 15 years of age or older refer to paragraph (e) (ii) of the ex but today any pupil attending a secondary planatory note which refers to power to school is helped to the extent of $400 per acquire land and other property. If hous annum-and more if they wish. This must ing does not come under other property, be linked with housing. I want to pay a I do not know what does. It is a pity that tribute to Sister Glad Hack, who received our learned lawyer does not wake up to a British Empire Medal in the Queen's birth that. day honours, partly for the work that she did in baby health centres at Kempsey. She Mr AcTING-SPEAKER: Order! The used to go out in her car carrying scales, Chair has already ruled on four occasions on this matter and has indicated that it is vitamin tablets and whatever else was re alert to the problems of relevance. I trust quired ~nd instruct Aborigines in maternal tb~t tb~ b9n9!Jm!:JJ~ .m~m!:J~r f9r R~J~i~II .he~Itb, 4858 Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill The honourable member for Georges together. Today it is a different story. Mem River referred to the tragic mortality among bers opposite realize that something has to Aboriginal children. If he cares to look be done for these people. I congratulate the through Hansard be will see that when I Minister on the wonderful spirit he has used to sit on the third seat down from the shown to the Aboriginal people. I am sure aisle in Opposition, I moved a private mem that the lead he has given will be developed ber's motion on this very subject. The aim under the present director. The position is of the motion was to seek the establishment a new one-only a year or two old-but I of an Aboriginal medical health service so am confident that these people appreciate that these problems could be tackled at their what is being done. They are responding source. I was concerned at the large number to what is being done and taking part in of kiddies dying in such areas as Kempsey community activity. I am certain that the which has a good medical service and hospi bill will be one further move, well worth tal. Unfortunately when the children went while, in the great help that we need to back to their reserves care seemed to be give these people. lacking or conditions were such that they could not overcome their disability. Mr DAY: Mr Acting-Speaker-- I welcome the fact that the Government Mr MAUGER (Monaro), Government is giving these people an opportunity. It Whip '[8.18]: I move: may not be all they would like but as a That the question be now put. first move it is really important. I hope The House divided. that they will accept the trust and use the land in the manner that they wish. If they AYES, 48 want to use land for vegetable growing, a Mr Arblaster MrJago play area, or housing, they will be able Sir Robert Askin MrLeitch to do so. I do not favour Aborigines going Mr Barraclough MrLewis Mr Jack Beale MrMcCaw back to congregate in housing on reserves, MrBoyd MrMcGinty but if it is the wish of these people we Mr Brewer MrMackie should make conditions on the reserves fit MrBrown MrMaddison for them. I know that many people MrBruxner MrMason in my electorate want to leave the reserves Mr Cameron Mr Mauger Mr Chaffey MrMead at Bellbrook and Bowraville. A number Mr Clough Mr Morris of reserves that are being handed over MrColeman Mr Mutton will be reserves upon which a number MrCowan MrOsborne of Aboriginal people are living at the present Mr Crawford Mr Punch time. We must see that the homes on those Sir Charles Cutler Mr Rozzoli Mr Darby Mr Singleton reserves are brought up to standard or that Mr Duncan MrTaylor other homes are built. Alternatively money Mr Fife MrViney must be made available to build homes so Mr Fischer MrWaddy that these people may live under good con Mr Fisher Mr N. D. Walker Mr Freudenstein MrWillis ditions. They must be given this opportu Mr Griffith nity. Mr Healey Tellers, Mr D. B. Hunter MrDoyle I am delighted at the progress the Govern Mr Jackett Mr Ruddock ment has made. I am delighted with many of the things it has done. We have come a NoES, 43 long way from the treatment that the MrBannon MrEinfeld Aboriginal people received under the Labor Mr Barnier Mr Face MrBooth Mr Ferguson governments in power in New South Wales. Mr Cahill Mr Flaherty It is tremendously interesting to me to see MrCoady Mr Gordon how the Labor Party has been stimulated in MrCox Mr Haigh its thinking. When Labor was in office its Mr Crabtree Mr Hills members could not care anything about MrDay Mr M. L. Hunter MrDegen Mr Jensen what the Aborigines Welfare Board did Mr Durick Mr Johnstone to segregate these people or to lump them Mr Earl Mr Jones MrBrown] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [11 APR., 1973] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill 4859 Mr Kearns Mr Quinn bers also have to be responsible for those Mr L. B. Kelly MrRamsay Mr R. J. Kelly Mr Renshaw people they sign in. May I ask who signed MrMahoney MrRyan those people into the gallery? MrMallam Mr Sloss Mr Mulock Mr Southee Mr Swss: Anyone I signed in, I will Mr Neilly MrWade MrNott Mr F. J. Walker sign in again. Who owns this bloody Mr O'Connell Tellers, country anyway? Mr Paciullo Mr Bedford Mr Petersen Mr K. J. Stewart Mr SPEAKER: Order! I call the honour Resolved in the affirmative. able member for King to order. If hon ourable members on the Opposition benches Question-That the word proposed to be left out stand-put. will remain quiet, I think they will be quite pleased with what I have to say. All the The House divided. ladies and gentlemen in the gallery were [In division] there with my approval. [Interruption from the public gallery] AYES, 48 Mr SPEAKER: Order! The officers will re Mr Arblaster Mr Jago Sir Robert Askin Mr Leitch move the interjector from the gallery. Mr Barraclough MrLewis Mr Jack Beale MrMcCaw [Interruption from the public gallery] MrBoyd MrMcGinty MrBrewer MrMackie Mr SPEAKER: Order! If there is any MrBrown MrMaddison further disturbance in the gallery, I shall MrBruxner Mr Mason have the whole gallery cleared. MrCameron MrMauger MrChaffey MrMead [Interruption from the public gallery] Mr Clough Mr Morris Mr Coleman MrMutton Mr SPEAKER: Order! The officers will MrCowan MrOsborne clear the whole gallery. Mr Crawford MrPunch Sir Charles Cutler Mr Rozzoli Mr CHAFFEY: Mr Speaker, you have MrDarby Mr Singleton MrDuncan MrTaylor ordered the public gallery to be cleared. It MrFife MrViney has not yet been cleared. MrFischer MrWaddy Mr Fisher Mr N. D. Walker Mr SPEAKER: Order! Mr Freudenstein Mr Willis Mr Griffith Mr SLoss: On a point of order. Did you, MrHealey Tellers, sir, say that if there was any more disturb Mr D. B. Hunter MrDoyle ance in the gallery you would clear the Mr Jackett Mr Ruddock whole gallery? NoEs, 43 Mr SPEAKER: I did. MrBannon Mr M. L. Hunter MrBarnier Mr Jensen Mr SLoss: There has been no further dis Mr Booth Mr Johnstone Mr Cahill MrJones turbance, so why did you make your order? MrCoady Mr Kearns MrCox Mr L. B. Kelly Mr SPEAKER: Order! Mr Crabtree Mr R. J. Kelly MrDay Mr Mahoney Mr HEALEY: On a point of order. I MrDegen MrMallam Mr Durick MrMulock understand that the rule of the Parliament Mr Earl Mr Neilly at the moment is that no persons are MrEinfeld Mr Nott MrFace Mr O'Connell allowed into the gallery unless they are MrFerguson Mr Paciullo signed in by their member, who must give MrFlaherty MrPetersen MrGordon MrQuinn his approval for them to be put into the MrHaigh MrRamsay gallery. I understand that honourable mem- Mr Hills MrRenshaw 4860 Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill Mr Ryan Mr F. J. Walker Mr PuNCH: On the point of order. The Mr Sloss Tellers, Minister for Youth and Community Ser Mr Southee Mr Bedford Mr Wade Mr K. J. Stewart vices spoke of members opposite, mainly indicating the honourable member for Ilia' Question so resolved in the affirmative. warra, .and referred to the fact that some Amendment negatived. of the people who were thrown out of the gallery tonight had been entertained in the Mr WADDY (Kirribilli), Minister for room upstairs over the past two days and Youth and Community Services '[8.33], in that this disturbance tonight was a result reply: I vegret that there should have been of that. In that regard he was perfectly that disturbance in the House on a bill correct. which I believe is of great importance. I Mr PETERSEN: On the point of order. In believe it is of great importance to those the Minister's speech he implied that the people we want to help. I think I can say entertainment of my guests in the smoke that all members of the House want to help, though I had my doubts on occasions room was the cause of what happened to because of some of the comments made by night. The implication was quite clear. I the honourable member for Georges River. want to give the lie to that. In fact I had Most of it was a personal attack on me guests in the smoke-room last night and this which is not even worthy of acknowledg afternoon. I have not seen them since about ment, it was so puerile. He made some 5.30 p.m. In any case I regard it as offensive other statements to the effect that a lot of to suggest that I should be organizing the land had been revoked and he named Cab disruption of this Parliament. I did not do bage Tree Island. I was interested in that so and I ask the Minister to withdraw the because I have the documents in relation to implication. that area of Cabbage Tree Island which Mr CAHILL: On the point of order. I comprises 125 acres. Eighty-five acres were rise to protest at the remarks of the Minis revoked. That area was revoked on 11th ter. I am a member of the Opposition and September, 1964, by the L!Vbor Government. I take extreme offence at the remarks of That is what happened with most of the the Minister that I was partly or fully res revocations of reserves in this State-they ponsible for the objection in the gallery. were revoked before this Government came to office. Mr WADDY: On the point of order. There was no reflection in my remarks on the That is about the essence of how inac members of the Opposition as a whole. I curate the honourable member for Georges named the two electorates of the honourable River is and how he tries to mislead people. member for Georges River and the hon He said he consulted with Aborigines. Ob ourable member for Illawarra. I said it viously he consulted with a lot of the Abo may be the result-if honourable members rigines who have been in this House during check Hansard they will see that is so-it the past two days. I know that either the may have been the entertaining that took honourable member for Georges River or place in the smoke-room which resulted in the member for Illawarra has been enter that disturbance. I said that and repeat it taining a lot of ,them in the smoke-room because I believe it. and I rather gather that tonight might be Mr SPEAKER: Order! If the Minister the result of some of that entertainment. made the statement he has just acknow ledged and referred to two honourable Mr F. J. WALKER: On a point of order. members on the other side of the House The Minister stated that I was entertaining the honourable member for Georges River Aborigines in the smoke-room and that as a and the honourable member for Illawarra result of that entertainment the disturbance and if these gentlemen take exception to it in the gallery occurred tonight. There is no on the basis that it is offensive to them, I truth in that statement, I assure him of that, think it could be so construed and therefore and I ask him to withdraw and apologize. I ask the Minister to withdraw. Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [11 APR., 1973] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill 4861 Mr WADDY: I withdraw. I should like Mr WADDY: I do not say there is any to refer to another statement made by the thing wrong with that. I said an honour honourable member for Georges River. He able member interviewed them outside. said that no one knew anything about this bill and that no one knew it was going to Mr SPEAKER: Order! be introduced. It is a pity that he does not Mr WADDY: The honourable member get together with some of his own col did interview people who printed slogans leagues particularly the deputy leader of outside my house on the footpath. his own party. On 25th November, 1972, his deputy leader made in the Sydney Morn Mr F. J. WALKER: What did they say? ing Herald a statement acknowledging that Mr WADDY: Strangely enough they said this legislation would be introduced and he Waddy is black. I did not think they would said that it would be pigeon-holed like a have acknowledged me. lot of other Government business and it was purely a stunt. I have given the lie to Mr RENSHAW: They meant inside. what the honourable member for Georges Mr WADDY: Perhaps they shared the River said and to what the deputy leader honourable member for Castlereagh's of his party said. Since 25th November it thoughts about me. The honourable mem has been known. In the same newspaper ber for Illawarra did interview a person report it was disclosed that the measure had who I have been advised by other Abori received the approval of the Council for gines has indulged in telephone calls, and Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders, the filthy calls at that, to my home and to my members of which said it was a step in the wife to such an extent that the telephone right direction and that they were pleased had to be monitored by the police. They about it. The information received by the are the kind of people the Opposition bas honourable member for Georges River is interviewed and whose opinions the Opposi remarkable. He did not interview any tion have been expressing tonight. If the members of the Aborigines Advisory Opposition puts them forward as typical Council. of the people we are trying to help then Mr F. J. WALKER: I did not say I did. God help the Aborigines. Mr WADDY: I am saying that you did [Interruption] not. The honourable member did not inter Mr SPEAKER: Order! view one of them and did not interview any member of the foundation or anyone who Mr WADDY: Yesterday I had in my has charge of the running of the Foundation office two Aborigines who said they be for Aboriginal Affairs. The honourable lieved this bill to be a proper one. Re member did interview a lot of people who cently I discussed this legislation with the are known to be protestors about various federal Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, the things in this city. He did interview people Ron. Gordon Bryant. I gave him a copy who have been known to skulk around in of the bill and he said he believed it was the dark and invade my home. At least two a step in the right direction. What the of them were sitting in the gallery earlier Government is trying to do is at least give tonight as guests of one or two members of recognition to Aboriginal people and the Opposition. acknowledge that they have the ability and Mr PETERSEN: Get your facts straight. the right to run their own affairs. We will hand back to them what was left to us Mr WADDY: The honourable member and handed over to us by our predecessors for Illawarra did interview people who have in government-lands that have been held protested outside this Parliament. The hon in reserve. Unfortunately there seems to be ourable member was seen interviewing them a complete lack of understanding about outside. many clauses in this bill. I hope that this Mr Cox: What is wrong with that? misunderstanding will be cleared u::> at the 4862 Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill Committee stage. Generally the bill has re Mr Cox: Why does not the Minister take ceived the approval of Aboriginal people action through the police if he knows the in this State. identity of the persons who have allegedly done .these things? Mr F. J. WALKER: Who are they? Mr WADDY: I have done so. Mr WADDY: The honourable member for Georges River would not know; they Mr Cox: The Minister should not say the would not talk to him. Opposition knows about these things. Mr PETERSEN: How about Pastor Jim Mr WADDY: I did not say the honour Roberts? able member for Auburn. He would not know anything. I was referring to another Mr WADDY: The honourable member member of the Opposition. If the Opposi surely would not call him responsible? Even tion has based its objections to ,this bill on his church has disowned him. the opinion of the Aborigines about whom I Mr O'CoNNELL: Shame. have been speaking and the actions I have referred to, then I say only that it is bad Mr WADDY: I think it is a shame. I am luck for the .A!borigines of this State. For the only Minister in this Government who twenty-four years Labor governed New has visited every Aboriginal reserve in New South Wales. In 1967 this Government ap South Wales. pointed a joint parliamentary select com mittee to investigate Aboriginal affairs. Mr K. J. STEWART: In a big limousine. Members f.-om both sides of both Houses Mr WADDY: Wrong again. I flew my comprised that committee and brought self in. down a magnificent report. Members went to a great deal of trouble in their investiga Mr K. J. STEWART: That would have tion. However the honourable member for been much more personal. Georges River wiped that report off and said it was worthless. The Government has im Mr WADDY: That is right, much more plemented many of the suggestions con personal and unfortunately for the honour tained in that report and it is proud to have able member for Canterbury not only did done so. I believe that the step that we are I get there but also I got back again. I taking here is the culmination of all that have visited most reserves not once but on a has gone before and at last we have a recog nition of .the fact that Aborigines can, and number of occasions. I have talked with want to and are interested and willing to these people. I have tried to find out what undertake management of their own affairs their problems are. Aborigines have come in this field. to me on the recommendation of other If honourable members would try to Aborigines, and that does not say much for understand this bill instead of attempting to the Opposition's assertion that I have not destroy 1t they would find that it contains developed goodwill. Aborigines have come many good points. Bach point has been to me for advice about projects they have carefully considered. It has been said this wanted to develop. Many of them have evening that the Aborigines Advisory been recommended by other Aborigines in Council members have not been able to visit their constituents. That is not so. They are the Northern Territory. Consistently re able to visit their constituents at any time. sponsible Aborigines have come to my Furthermore, every second meeting of the office. It is the responsible ones who will council is held in a country centre. That is make this legislation work, not the ones done to enable the members of the advisory who threatened to kidnap my grandchildren, council to meet the people. Every Aborigine not the ones who have threatened to shoot was given the right to register and vote. me. The responsible ones are not the friends of the Opposition. Mr F. J. WALKER: How many registered? Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [11 A$8., 1973] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill 4863 Mr WADDY: I am not responsi:ble for I commend the honourable member for them not registering. Bankstown for his contribution to the de bate. I do not do anything more than that. Mr. F. J. WALKER: Only 9 per cent He criticized the part that he thought was registered. wrong, but he did it in a good and reasoned Mr WADDY: That is not my responsi way. He and I came into this House on the bility. Every Aborigine was given the oppor same day, and we did not seem to get in tunity. volved in personal invective. He is younger than I, and he is probably lasting better. He Mr F. J. WALKER: The scheme did not raised the question of minerals, but I point work. out to him that the bill goes further with mineral rights than any legislation in Aus Mr WADDY: Yes it did. It was a good tralia. scheme, recommended by the select com mittee. That was the first fegistration in Mr PETERSEN: The Premier of South vited. Honour~ble members might be in Australia tried to do something, but the terested to know that one of the greatest upper House there would not let him. Aboriginal protestors of all time in Sydney stood for election but was defeated. Mr WADDY: I know he tried, and was knocked back. Mr F. J. WALKER: Who was that? Mr PETERSEN: The Liberal Party Mr WADDY: I have no wish to name Country party Opposition would not let him here. him. It meant something there. Mr F. J. WALKER: There should be no Mr WADDY: The fact is that here it is objection if he was a candidate for election. written into this bill, except that gold and silver are reserved. These minerals are re Mr WADDY: He was a candidate and served throughout Australia. Originally I he was defeated. I am hopeful-and at recommended that they should not be re this stage I can only say that I am hopeful served, but I have been advised that consti -that because of the added responsrbility tutionally this cannot be done. I had to that will accrue out of this bill the great reserve gold and silver. It is all right for majority of Aborigines will realize that not the master of law, the honourable member only can they Tegister but also that they for Georges River, to pull faces, but I re should register and therefore accept respon mind him that I receive proper advice. sibility and elect the representatives whom they feel will do a good job for them. On The honourable member for Bankstown a number of occasions it has been put to objected also to the use of the word "may" me that by doing that we might end up with in proposed new section lOo, which deals a trust composed entirely of protesters. If with the provision of funds. He suggested we do, so what? The Aborigines will be that it should be "shall". If the word "shall" making their own determination and that is were used it would be mandatory, of course. An honourable member opposite said that what I want them to do. That is .the prin if Labor were elected to office, the word cipal object of the bill. The bill wants to "shall" will be placed in the legislation, but give Aborigines the right to make their own I am certain that a Labor government would determinations. That is what I am setting not appreciate a mandatory clause like that out to do and that is what I believe we are hanging round its neck. As a matter of achieving in this measure, which has been fact, Labor did not do it when it was in accepted by the great majority of Abo office. rigines in this State-not by the fly~by-Jl!ight Mr PETERSEN: What about in South Aus characters, some of whom have come tralia? over the border from interstate to protest Mr WADDY: The honourable member andl stir without having any Teal considera- should not tell me about South Australia . . tion for the great majority of their own race. I have just come from the conference, and 4864 Aborigines (Amendmem) Bill [ASSEMBLY] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill I had a talk with the Attorney-General from whole in New South Wales. Someone might South Australia. He and I see eye to eye just move into a new house on a reserve, on Aborigines. I spoke with him the other and get the full rights, whereas someone day. The honourable member for Georges might have lived on the reserve for years River used the expression "assimilation", but and then moved into town or somewhere that word never appeared in any policy else, but he would have no rights and no statement or announcement by me or the value. That is why it has been put this way, Government and it did not appear in Mr and we shall keep it that way. McMahon's statement when he made his famous Australia Day speech in 1972. I do Next comes the question of the decline not know why the honourable member for in the numbers of people on the reserves. Georges River keeps on raising this assimila Honourable members would be surprised tion problem. how many young Aborigines come to see me. They talk about housing, and they say: It was said that there is no provision in "Please think of the young people. We have the bill for the trust to communicate with or had better education and we are better report to its constituents. There is no re qualified for work. We do not want to quirement for the Parliament of this State spend the rest of our days on the reserve. to report to its constituents. Do honourable We want to live in society." That has been members opposite believe that this elected the policy we have pursued. The matter will body should report to its constituents? These be placed in the hands of the Aboriginal people stand for election every three years, people, and there will be consultations and the same as we do. That is the answer to backing from the Government. That is that point. If these people do not measure clearly stated, and I believe there will be up, their constituents can deal with them. backing and consultation from the Com Obviously this was just a lot of talk for monwealth Government too. talk's sake, without any real thought. We are negotiating on the best basis we Honourable members opposite mentioned can for dealing with the interests of the also that there was no provision for balan Aboriginal people. This was an agreement cing sales and purchases of land. Of course between the Commonwealth Minister and there is not. We are giving autonomy to myself. We are looking for co-operation the Aboriginal people to do what they want free of party politics, between ·the Com to do. If they want to sell this land, they monwealth and State Governments. We are can sell; if they want to buy, they can buy; looking at it in the interests of the Abor if they want to lease, they can lease. I am iginal people, and that is the only way to putting on no strings whatsover. They want look at it. Mr Gordon Bryant, the Com the responsibility and can accept it. If we monwealth Minister, is doing just that. He are giving them autonomy, why place re came to my office and saw me and talked strictions on them? I do not believe this is to me after he had made a fiasco of a necessary or desirable. Certainly I will not report on the South Coast. It was some be in that. thing that I have never experienced from I have dealt with consultation. It was members of the Opposition in this House. asked why we want a trust. In the 1971 He came and apologized to me about census there were among 23,000 to 24,000 making that statement without finding out Aborigines fewer than 200 full-blood or why it happened. I respect him for it. I shall tribal Aborigines. There has been a great help and co-operate with him as far as I housing problem. People move backwards can to bring about what we believe are the and forwards interstate. This was well changes that are in the best interests of the recognized in the big report here. This is Aborigines we have here. Also, honourable the reason, and that was the reason, after members opposite questioned the adequacy consultation with Aborigines themselves, why the bill was felt to provide the best of representation by nine members. The answer. These areas, lands and assets are nine members that are proposed will have, reserved for the Aboriginal people as a on an average, 2,565 constituents each. Mr Waddy] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [11 APR., 1973] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill 4865 Mr F. J. WALKER: In Sydney each one Mr SPEAKER: Not unless you are going has 3,000. to tell me you have been reflected upon. Mr WADDY: They will have 2,565 each. Mr F. J. WALKER: Yes, that is the nature That is not being overcrowded with constitu of the personal explanation. ents in any circumstances. The honourable Mr SPEAKER: I will hear the honourable member for Bankstown said this was an member. empty gesture. I believe I have tried, and I believe that I cannot do much more than [Personal Explanation] that. The objects of the bill should properly interest the people who are trying to make Mr F. J. WALKER: The Minister, when a protest. They will accept and see that referring to statements by me concerning this is giving them a right, and implement discussions and consultations I had with ing a policy of self-determination for Abor certain Aboriginal people, suggested that the iginal people in New South Wales. This is Aboriginal people I was discussing and con something that was never done by our pre sulting with are people of a criminal nature, decessors; indeed, our predecessors never and had carried out criminal acts in rela even thought of doing it. I say frankly that tion to his property and person. the state in which the Aborigines had to Mr WADDY: On a point of order. The live under the previous government and word criminal was never used or implied. after we took over was an absolute dis grace. I believe what the honourable mem Mr SPEAKER: I do not think it was. Cer ber said really applies, but what has hap tainly the word criminal was never used. pened since, with the implementation of the Mr F. J. WALKER: I agree with that. recommendations of the joint parliamentary The Minister said that he knew that one of committee and the handing over from the the people who was in my company had Aborigines Welfare Board to the Ministry threatened to shoot him. That was a for Child Welfare and Social Welfare, have criminal action. The Minister said that he been good moves. I have in mind the imple knew that one person, a friend of mine, had mentations of the Government's policies on threatened him. That was the understand housing, health and education in the past ing I had. There was definitely a statement four years. This is something of which any that there was someone in the gallery, a government can be proud. Even the Labor guest of mine, who had threatened the Party's federal Minister paid us a compli Minister-which is a criminal matter-and ment for what has happened in the past interfered with his right of privacy. few years. Mr SPEAKER: Order! What do you want Mr F. J. WALKER: Mr Speaker, with your to say? permission, I should like to make a state ment under Standing Order 139, in explana Mr F. J. WALKER: I have had no guests tion of something that arose in my speech. tonight. Last night I signed in some Abori ginal people whose names I do not know Mr SPEAKER: Order! That standing to tell the truth. I do not know whether they order does not allow the honourable mem were in the gallery tonight; I did not see ber to make an explanation of his speech them there. I walked into the smoke-room after the debate has been closed. The Min for one minute. I am most upset that it ister has now spoken and closed the debate. should be thought that I should do anything I think the honourable member could have that would disrupt the proceedings of this done it before the Minister spoke. Now it House. is too late. Motion agreed to. Mr F. J. WALKER: Can I make a personal explanation? Bill read a second time. 305 4866 Aborigines (Amendment) Bill {ASSEMBLY] Aborigine• (Amendment) Bill IN .COMMIITEE bands up in the air. I know that in some Clause 4 areas only 16 per cent voted and the Minis ter was upset about that. I think it was Mr F. J. WALKER {Georges River) only in my electorate that there was any [9.2]: The clause relates to the Aborigines reasonable vote in local-government elec Advisory Council and outlines the manner tions and that was about 48 per cent. How in which it will be elected and who its mem ever, 9 per cent is a little ridiculous. Surely bers are to be. Under this clause there are the Minister will agree that 9 per cent to be now nine elected members of the is hardly democratic, representative or council and it is important to appreciate likely to produce a trust that will have the that this council will form the trust, which confidence of the Aboriginal people. is the vital matter in the bill. I take the point that the elections for the 1970 Abori In the Sydney metropolitan area there gines Advisory Council were a farce, un are 6,000 Aborigines on the census figures. workable and not representative. That is not I understand that there are many more the way to elect a trust and I believe that they come and go. I have here figures of up the Aboriginal people have no confidence to 20,000. The Minister for Agriculture sug in this body. gested there were 20,000 and he could w-::11 be correct. In the metropolitan area there If this is the case, we have to start to are two .electorates of east and south Syd examine whether this is the way to adminis ney, and north and west Sydney. From ter Aboriginal land rights in New South what I understand there may be ~orne re Wales. I invite the attention of the Com distribution and the Minister proposes to mittee to pages 22 and 23 of the report leave only two of the nine seats in the of the Minister for Social Welfare on the metropolitan area. A large concentration working of the Aborigines Act, 1969, for of Aboriginal people is in east and south the year ended 30 June, 1971, where the Sydney area which covers eight electorates. details of the election are set out. There were The remainder of the electorates in the six districts in that election and they were metropolitan area-about forty-five of them worked out on a State electoral basis. I -are lumped in the north and west Sydney shall give the seats involved in the six elec area. There are something like 6,000 Abori torates because it is important to under gines there. In the previous ballot in 1970, stand my point that this distribution of elec in the east and south Sydney electorate, torates bad no relevance to the demography 199 Aborigines registered. That is not of Aborigines. Of the 24,000 who were pre many. Mr Williams swung the elections pared to put themselves forward as Abori with a magnificent vote of nineteen pri gines or part-Aborigines in the census there mary votes to eight. The area takes m was a total enrolment of 2,074. I think we La Perouse and Redfern. A candidate are all in agreement that there are a lot would need to get persons like the hon more people of Aboriginal blood in New ourable member for Raleigh to support him South Wales than the 24,000. The figure in the election campaign in order to win that seems to be accepted by the people to nineteen votes. That is hardly tremendous whom I have spoken is well over 30,000. support. Thousands of Aborigines are mili However, I shall work on the Common tant. I could find more than nineteen mem wealth Statistician's figures of 24,000. Of bers in this House, according to the Min those 24,000 there was a total enrolment of ister. I know that I counted nearly 100 2,074-in other words, less than 10 per Aborigines outside last night, yet only nine cent and on my somewhat poor mathe een voted for the candidate in the east matics, about 9 per cent. That in itself and south Sydney area. This is a joke and shows that the system has failed. a farce. Obviously the Aboriginal people If the Minister looks at the matter fairly have no confidence in the council or the and evaluates the system, he must agree. If system of ballot. If the Minister were only 9 per cent of electors voted in local honest he would agree that the time has government elections we should have the come to look for a system that might be Minister for Local Government thr-owing his more acceptable to the Aboriginal people Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [! l.APR.. .U73] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill 4867 and more in accordance with the system a ia.Jld trust that will have the SU~ppor.t of !Under which tbey elect people on their own the Abor~gin:al people. If that support .is not Aboriginal reserves. I11 the .north and west forthcoming, a result as ;tragic as Lake Sydney distcict I thought that an acceptable Tyers in Victoria will flow. If the Abo. t:andidate might have been thrown up but riginal people are not permitted to devise :tmly 134 people were .enrolled. The suc their own system of election, this land trust cessful candidate received the magnificent will fail. I should hate to have to admit total of twenty-two pll"imary votes. Here is that we have again failed the .A!boriginal a council that is .supposed ro .be represent people. Members on Mr WADDY: I am being serious. The Mr WADDY: On a point of order. I am Minister from South Australia said that in sorry to interrupt the honourable member, the presence of other State ministers. South but he is making a second-reading speech Australia, Western Australia and the that has nothing to do with this clause. The Northern Territory have problems different honourable member is not dealing with de from those in New South Wales. I do not tails of the bill. The honourable member for know of a better system than the one pro Georges River talked about things in the posed in this bill. For the reasons I have clause that concerned him. Now the hon stated, I believe that a better result will be ourable member for Illawarra is getting into achieved by this new scheme. the realm of general discussion. He must speak to the clause that is before the Mr PETERSEN (lllawarra) [9.17]: I had Committee. not intended to speak on this clause but the Minister's statement that he does not The TEMPORARY CHAmMAN (Mr know of a better system has prompted me DuNCAN): Order! The point is well taken. to do so. The form of election proposed is I must ask the honourable member for suitable for white capitalist shareholders of lllawarra to confine himself to the clause, a company, but is not suitable for a dis or to resume his seat. possessed minority who have a low level of education. The Minister fails to under Mr PETERSEN: Let us get away from stand the important point about the South the paternalistic thinking that we can work Australian legislation. I do not believe that out systems that apply to the white, literate the South Australian legislation is perfect, middle class to suit Aborigines. The postal but it is better than that proposed in this ballot system of elections does not work bill. The South Australian lands trust con in trade unions. The Amalgamated Metal sists of twelve nominated members. How Workers Union has an infinitely more demo ever, the chairman and two other members cratic system. Workers vote at branch meet are nominated directly by the Minister and ings, on the job, and that works better than the other nine members are nominated by the postal ballot system. The people who Aboriginal reserve councils. That is a less are elected are directly responsible to the democratic system than the one in New electorate and there is a continual process South Wales, but the important thing is that of reporting back. The Aboriginal Lands it is a much more representative scheme. Of Trust will not work until it gets a more the twelve members on the lands trust of representative system than there is at the South Australia, nine are directly related to present time. a constituency to which they must report. Clause agreed to. The system in New South Wales, with all its democratic provisions, such as postal votes Clause 5 for nine members, produced the magnificent Page 10 tOo. (1) 'Ibo Trust shall open and maintain In total of 917 voters and has been a failure. tho name of the Trust an account or accounts at a The Government has simply translated a bank carrying !>U business in New South Wales. system devised for white, literate, middle (2) The Trust may arrange with a bank class people and applied it to a dispossessed 15 for loans by way of overdraft or otherwise. minority that has been degraded by a white Mr KEARNS (Bankstown) [9.22]: I Australian capitalist society. We have given move: them no way of reporting back to their That at page 10, lines 12 and 13, the words "at a bank carrying on business in New South electorates. They are not even given ex Wales" be left out and there be inserted in penses so that they can visit their elector lieu thereof the words "at the Rural Bank of ates. The Minister takes them all on a guided New South Wales". tour, as though they were so many sheep I shall not delay the Committee on this being rounded up by a sheep dog. They all amendment as I covered it during my stay at the same motel and cannot even second-reading speech. It is a principle of visit their relatives. the Labor Party that State governments and Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [11 APR., 1973] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill 4869 government instrumentalities should bank is sincere in its endeavours to establish a with a government bank and the Ruml Bank lands trust that will operate effectively for is a State bank. In applying this principle the people it is designed to benefit, the we recognize that the Aboriginal lands trust Government must ensure that sufficient is not really a government instrumentality. funds are made available to the trust. If However, the Rural Bank has wide experi the Government intends to make sufficient ence in the country areas of New South funds available to the trust, there is no Wales. It is used extensively in helping pri reason why it should object to that being mary producers and the same principles clearly set out in the bill so that the bill could be applied in relation to the Abori will show that the Minister shall make such ginal lands trust. The experience the bank moneys available to the trust as the trust has gained over the years could be used requires to carry out the duties entrusted to in this connection to great advantage. it by the bill. I do not wish to labour the matter further; I dealt with it at the second Mr WADDY (Kirribilli), Minister for reading stage. What I said then is sufficient Youth and Community Services [9.23]: justification. If the Minister and the Govern The Government cannot accept the amend ment are sincere in making efforts to ensure ment. The trust is to be given autonomy that the trust operates effectively and effi in the management of its affairs. I remind ciently, they will accept the amendment the honourable member for Bankstown that which makes it mandatory for the Minister when his party was in government for years to do certain things in order to ensure that and years it used the Bank of New South the trust has sufficient funds available to it Wales. The Government does not want to to discharge its powers, authorities, duties dictate to the trust that it should use a and functions. particular bank. It should have the right to choose a bank. Mr WADDY (Kirribilli), Minister for Youth and Community Services 1[9.26]: The Amendment negatived. Government cannot accept this amendment. Page 10 I cannot see any purpose in it. The bill pro vides for funds to be made available to (3) The Mlnlster may, out of moneys provided by Parliament, pay to the Trust such enable the trust to discharge its powers. amounts as he thinks fit. Funds have to be approved by the Parlia ( 4) The Trust shall pay into a bank ment. There is a budget allocation, the mat 20 account referred to in subsection ( 1) all moneys ter goes to the Treasury and the department received by it from any source. is told how much it will or will not receive. Mr KEARNS (Bankstown) [9.24]: I There may be reasons why moneys will not move: be required. Often there is a change in That at page 10, all words on lines 16 to 18 budgetary requirements. There should be be left out and there be inserted in lieu thereof flexibility. The honourable member for the words Bankstown is trying to read into the clause (3) The Minister shall out of moneys pro a sinister purpose which is not intended and vided· by Parliament, pay to the Trust has never been exercised. The same kind such amounts as are necessary to en of provision is found in other bills. I state able the Trust to exercise and discharge its powers, authorities, duties and unequivocally that it is my intention that functions. the trust and the council shall work. They The bill provides that the Minister may,- out cannot do it on their own; they have to be of moneys provided by Parliament, pay to provided with funds by the Government. the trust such amounts as he thinks fit. The That is the undertaking we have given to Minister clearly indicated at the second those who have spoken to us. I am certain reading stage that by this provision he has that the honourable member would appre a discretion to make funds available or not ciate that by the amendment the object of to make funds available. It is quite possible the bill would be defeated. There has to be that the requirements of the trust will not some flexibility. There is that flexibility in be met by this provision. If the Government all legislation. 4&70 Aborigines. 'Ametuiment)' mn [ASSEMBLY) Aborigines (Amendment) Bill M.r: KEARNS (Bankstown) {9.29}: I take MJ; Joo.es. MrQuinn issue with the Minister on the question of MrKeams. MrRamsay Mr L. B. KeLly MrRenshaw the necessity for this amendment. If, as the Mr R. J. Kelly MrRyan Minister says, it is his intention and that of MrMahoney MrSloss the Government to make funds available, MrMallam MrSouthee they must accept the principle that there is MrMulock Mr K. J. Stewart Mr Neilly MrWade a compulsion on them to do exactly that. MrNott Mr F. J. Walker The Minister spoke of flexibility, but there Mr O'Connell Tellers, is nothing inflexible about the amendment. Mr Paciullo MrFerguson It provides only that the amount of money Mr Petersen MrFlaherty necessary foc the trust to operate will be Question so resolved in the affirmative. made available Ito it. Amendment negatived. This amendment ensures that if money is required by the trust it may be made Page 11 available. If the trust does not need money, (a) sell, exchange, lease, mortgage or otherwise this amendment ensures that the Govern deal with its property; ment or the Minister ·is not required to give 1s (b) improve. or cause to be improved, any land vested in it; or it to the trust. There is no compulsion upon the Minister to make availaJble to the trust (c) ~ore for and ellploit. or eause to be large sums of money unless necessary. explored for or exploited, mineral resources, or other natoral resources, vested in it. Questioll-'That the words proposed to be Mr PETERSEN (Illawarra) [9.36]: I left out stand'---'Put. move: The Committee divided. That at page 11, line 14, after the word "property" there be inserted the words "pro AYES, 46 vided that land vested in the Trust shall not Mr Arblaste.r MrLeitch be sold unless first approved by resolution of Sir Robert Askin Mr Lewis both Houses of Parliament". Mr Barraclough MrMcCaw This resolution is broadly based on the Mr Jack Beale MrMcGinty MrBoyd MrMackie South Australian legislation, albeit seven MrBrewer Mr Maddison years late and a great deal worse in most MrBrown Mr Mason respects. However, it is significant that MrBruxner MrMauger there is an improvement on the South Aus MrCameron MrMood MrChaffey MrMorris tralian legislation in at least one area, MrOlough MrMutton though this bill contains a lot of humbug. MrColeman MrOsborne The key provision in this bill is proposed MrCowan Mr Punch MrCrawford MrRuddock new section 101 (1), and particularly para Sir Charles Cwtler Mr Singleton graph (a) which relates to a trust having MrDarby MrTaylor power to sell, exchange, lease, mortgage, or MrDoyle MrViney otherwise deal with its property. MrFife MrWaddy MrFischer Mr N.D. Walker That paragraph is completely repugnant MrFisher MrWillis to the Aboriginal people of New South Mr Griffith Mr D. B. Hunter Tellers, Wales. It is worth comparing that proposed Mr Jackett MrHealey section with its counterpart in the South Mr Jago Mr Rozzoli Australian Aborigines Land Trust Act of NoEs, 43 1968, in which section 16 (5) reads: MrBannon Mr Durick (5} The Trust may- Mr Barnier MrEarl ( a) with the consent of the Minister, sell, MrBedford MrEinfeld lease, mortgage or otherwise deal with MrBooth MrFace land vested iFl it pursuant to this MrCahill MrGordon Act; or MrCoady MrHaigh MrCox Mr Hills (h) develop such land subject to compli M.rCrabtree Ml: M. L. Hunte• ance with the provisions of any Act MrDay Mr Jensen or Iaw re1ating thereto, MrDegen Mr Johnstone as it thinks fit. Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [11 APR., 1973} Aborigines (Amendment) Bill 4871 The Minister shall not withhold his consent The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr unless he is satisfied that the sale, lease, mort gage or dealing fails to preserve to the Abori DuNCAN): Order! I ask the honourable ginal people of South Australia the benefits member for Illawarra to return to the clause. and value of the land in question: Provided that no land vested in the Trust may be sold Mr PETERSEN: The point I was going unless both Houses of Parliament during the to make was that the power to sell is one same or different sessions of any Parliament of the powers of the trust. This is dealt have by resolution authorized such sale. with in proposed new section 101 ( 1) (a) , That provision is in accord with federal and I propose to link it to proposed new Labor Party policy which says, inter alia: section 1OK, because if the trust fails to sell, No aboriginal land shall be alienated except proposed new section lOK can be applied with approval both of the Trust and Parlia against it. ment. Mr WADDY: On a point of order. Mr In 1969 when legislation relating to Abori Temporary Chairman, your ruling is being gines was debated in this House the question flouted. The Committee is dealing with of disposal of reserves caused considerable proposed new section 101 (1) (a), upon concern to the Federal Council of Abori which the honourable member for Illawarra gines and Torres Strait Islanders. That or himself has moved an amendment. That ganization objected to section 17 of the is the clause that is before the Committee proposed Act. It objected to the method and I ask that the honourable member be of disposal of reserves and suggested: directed to stick to that clause. If the bill were able to provide corporate aboriginal title to the remaining reserves under Mr F. J. WALKER: On the point of order. a land trust or other arrangement the Parlia I submit that the Committee is dealing with ment and people would be taking an import clause 5. ant step in improving the psychological rela tionship between the two races. At present Mr WADDY: It is dealing with the amend that relationship is deteriorating quickly par ment. ticularly over the matter of land rights. That organization said also that it was en Mr F. J. WALKER: The Committee is tirely opposed to the alienation of reserves. dealing with clause 5, which includes many That policy was adopted by other Abor proposed new sections, including proposed ginal organizations including moderate mili section lOK. Clause 5 contains all the new tants, Aboriginal councils and the bete noire sections. It is true that an amendment has of the Minister, black power. Statements been moved to proposed new section by spokesmen for those organizations rep 1Ox (1 ) , but there is no standing order resented the feeling of the overwhelming which says that a member cannot refer to other lines in the clause. Proposed new majority of Aboriginal people. As we are section 10K appears on a later page of the in the Committee stage of the debate on bill than the amendment, but nevertheless this bill it is not possible for me to discuss it is part of clause 5. the faults of the Aboriginal Advisory Coun The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! I cil. Proposed new section 10K gives the shall have to ask the honourable member Minister power to dismiss the council if it for Illawarra, when making reference to fails or neglects-- this, to tie it in with the amendment he Mr WADDY: On a point of order. The has moved. So long as he is willing to do honourable member for Illawarra has moved that, he can proceed. an amendment to proposed new section Mr PETERSEN: Thank you, Mr 101 ( 1) (a). That is the question before Temporary Chairman. I shall pass from the Committee, but he is now trying to that particular point. I am critical of the talk about another clause. situation at Lake Tyers in Victoria. This Mr PETERSEN: It was just a passing is relevant to the disposal of property. The reference. committee there had power to dispose of 4872 Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill property, and a quorum of three could con is to be disposed of, the transaction must stitute the committee. I refer to the Nation come out into the light of day, and must Review article of 16th February. It is far be tabled in both Houses of Parliament. I too long to read, but in it the point is made have been particularly concerned about the that three members of the committee made 323 acres at Wallaga Lake. It is no secret a decision, apparently under pressure from that L. J. Hooker Pty Limited would dearly persons of unknown origin, that three love to get its hands on the area and deliver houses and a school be sold, and apparently it for residential subdivision. It has been land associated with them. suggested that there is a possibility of the development of vegetable growing, farming There is a long history of the disposal of and fishing in this area. It is all too easy in reserves. I had hoped that when legisla these sorts of areas to say that the land can tion was introduced in this State provision be sold for the benefit of the Aboriginals would be made for the reserves to be in and other land acquired. Such an attitude violate. The Aboriginal people feel strongly is basically racist, for it overlooks the atti about this issue, especially in view of the tude of Aborigines to land and reserves. remarks contained in what is now known as the infamous Blackburn decision, in the case If one reads the survey of Peter Tobin on of Milirrpum v. Nabalco Proprietary land rights, one sees that he suggested that Limited. In that judgment Mr Justice reserves are regarded as lands that belong to Blackburn found for the mining company the Aborigines on the reserve, and that land despite the fact that Gove Peninsula was a is regarded as belonging to tribal Aborigines. native reserve. In his judgment he said: I have some doubts whether that is so, but The creation of a reserve merely means that whether it is or not, it is apparent that as the Crown has power to dispose for their a dispossessed minority, Aborigines regard benefit of any lands, irrespective of what the such reserves as a refuge from white capi natives claim. talist society, and have an entirely different In other words, it is 1788 legislation. I concept of land from the capitalist ethic. suggest this bill also is 1788 legislation. Mr TAYLOR: On a point of order. I believe When dealing with the question of disposal that the Committee has listened to the of existing reserves, Jack Horner, the assist honourable member for long enough while ant general secretary of the Federal Council he has been making a second-reading speech. for Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders The honourable member has moved an has produced a document showing that between 1938 and 1964, while the popula amendment to a clause and I suggest that tion on reserves in New South Wales de he be asked to terminate his speech if he clined from 6,699 to 5,415, a grand total does not want to speak to his amendment. of 771 acres was added to reserves and 13,536 acres were taken away, making a The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr net loss of 12,763 acres. We are concerned DUNCAN): In regard to the point of order that the Minister has said that none of those taken by the honourable member for 12,763 acres that were taken away will be Temora, it is quite obvious that this clause restored, and none of the reserved lands is fairly broad, but the honourable member revoked prior to 1969 will be recognized, for Illawarra can refer only briefly to the presumably not to be added to the reserves. point he is making at this stage. He must It appears also that in areas where Aborigines live on land that is not a recog return to this particular clause. nized reserve, the land will not come under Mr PETERSEN: The point I am making the Act. For example, the area of land near is that this minority have land. which they the jetty at Coffs Harbour will not be recog regard in a different way from the manner nized. in which we regard it. To them it is not I am by no means happy with the provi something to be disposed of and to be sions of the South Australian legislation, but bought and sold. In any case, the whole at least it can be said that under it, if land area is only 1,700 acres. Mr Petersen] Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [ll.APR., 1973) Aborigines (Amendment) Bill 4873 Mr MAUGER (Monaro), Government Mr Crabtree Mr Mahoney Whip [9.48]: I move: MrDay MrMallam MrDegen MrMulock That the question be now put. MrDurick Mr Neilly Mr Earl MrNott The Committee divided. Mr Einfeld Mr O'Connell Mr Face Mr Paciullo AYES, 46 MrFerguson Mr Petersen Mr Arblaster MrLewis MrFlaherty MrQuinn Sir Robert Askin MrMcCaw MrGordon MrRamsay Mr Barraclough MrMcGinty MrHaigh MrRenshaw Mr Jack Beale MrMackie Mr Hills MrRyan MrBoyd MrMaddison Mr M. L. Hunter MrSloss Mr Brewer Mr Mason Mr Jensen MrSouthee MrBrown Mr Mauger Mr Johnstone MrWade MrBruxner MrMead Mr Jones Mr F. J. Walker MrCameron Mr Morris Mr Kearns Tellers, Mr Chaffey Mr Mutton Mr L. B. Kelly Mr Cahill MrClough MrOsbome Mr R. J. Kelly Mr K. J. Stewart MrColeman Mr Punch MrCrawford Mr Rozzoli NoEs, 46 Sir Charles Cutler Mr Ruddock Mr Arblaster MrLewis MrDarby Mr Singleton Sir Robert Askin MrMcCaw MrDoyle Mr Taylor Mr Barraclough MrMcGinty MrFife MrViney Mr Jack Beale MrMackie MrFischer MrWaddy MrBoyd MrMaddison Mr Fisher Mr N.D. Walker MrBrewer MrMason MrGriffith Mr Willis MrBrown MrMauger MrHealey Mr Bruxner MrMead Mr D. B. Hunter Tellers, MrCameron Mr Morris Mr Jackett MrCowan MrChaffey Mr Mutton MrJago MrLeitch MrClough MrOsborne MrColeman Mr Punch NOES, 43 Mr Crawford Mr Rozzoli MrBannon MrL. B. KeUy Sir Charles Cutler MrRuddock MrBamier Mr R. J. Kelly MrDarby Mr Singleton Mr Bedford MrMahoney Mr Doyle MrTaylor MrBooth MrMaUam MrFife MrViney Mr Cahill MrMulock MrFischer MrWaddy MrCoady Mr Neilly MrFisher Mr N.D. Walker MrCox MrNott Mr Griffith MrWillis Mr Crabtree Mr O'Connell MrHealey MrDay Mr Paciullo Mr D. B. Hunter Tellers, MrDegen Mr Petersen Mr Jackett MrCowan MrDurick MrQuinn MrJago MrLeitch MrEarl MrRamsay Question so resolved in the negative. MrEinfeld MrRenshaw MrFace MrRyan Amendment negatived. MrGordon MrSloss MrHaigh MrSouthee Page 11 Mr Hills Mr K. J. Stewart Mr M. L. Hunter MrWade 10 (2) To the IIXtent co wblch 811 Act ptOt MrJensen Mr F. J. Walker vldea for a pmon to explore for or exploit mineral Mr Johnstone Tellers, resources, or other natural resources, vested ill Mr Jones MrFerguson 011other person, the Act does not apply to or ill Mr Flaherty respect of mineral resources, or other natural MrKearns 25 resources, vested in the Trust. Resolved in the affirmative. Mr F. J. WALKER (Georges River) Question-That the words proposed to be [10.0]: I move: inserted be so inserted-put. That at page 11, line 23, the word "the" The Committee divided. be left out and there be inserted in lieu there of the word "that". AYES, 43 This is purely a technical matter, but it in MrBannon MrBooth volves a rather deep consideration of law. MrBarnier MrCoady MrBedford MrCox If I am right, the amendment will change 4874 Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLYJ Aborigines (Amendment) Bill completely the meaning and intention of the Amendment negatived. clause. I asked the Minister to take this Page 12 matter to the Parliamentary Counsel. As I understand statutory interpretation, the I OK. (I) Where, in the opinion of the Minister, the Trust has wilfully failed or neglected to exercise words "the Act" are legal words with a or discharge any of its powers, authorities. duties technical legal meaning, and that meaning or functions in a material respect, the Governor S may, by order published in the Gazette, declare is that the words refer to the Act being that the Trust has ceased to function. amended. Recently this Parliament passed (2) An order under subsection (I) may an amendment to the Interpretation Act of be limited in its operation according to time, plact~ 1897 to provide that a reference to the or circumstance. section, or to the clause or to the part was a Mr KEARNS (Bankstown) [10.5]: I reference to the section, clause or part of move: the Act being amended, and there was no That at page 12, all words on lines 7 to 9 necessity to refer to the specific Act. The be left out and there be inserted in lieu thereof words "the Act" or "the clause" or "the the words section" would allow the courts and the (2) An order under subsection (1) shall be world to know that the reference was to the limited in its operation according to Act being amended. If that is so, the pro time, place or circumstance and pro vide for a new election of the Aboriginal vision would then read: Lands Trust within a period of 6 To the ex!ent to which an Act provides for months. a person to explore for or exploit mineral Subsection (2) of proposed section lOK resources, or other natural resources, vested in will leave to the discretion of the Minister another person, the Aborigines Act does not apply to or in respect of mineral resources, or whether the abandonment of the trust is other natural resources, vested in the Trust. to be for a limited or unlimited period. The Opposition believes that that is not proper If that interpretation is applied, quite ob and that steps must be taken within six viously the whole purpose of this bill would months to ensure that the trust is reformed be defeated because the Act referred to is and continues to function. The amendment not the Aborigines Act, but the Mining Act. is self-explanatory. The proposition I am putting is that under the rules of statutory interpretation the Mr JAGO: It does not mean a damn thing. words "the Act" would mean the Aborigines Mr KEARNS: If the Minister for Health Act, when obviously the Mining Act is in wishes to debate this amendment, I suggest tended. The Opposition's amendment that he get up after I have finished speaking. would make it obvious to an interpreter that the provision refers not to the Abori Mr JAoo: I would not waste my time. gines Act, but to the Mining Act. Perhaps it would be better to insert the words "the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Mining Act". For this simple reason, I DUNCAN): Order! I ask the honourable have moved that the clause should be member for Bankstown to proceed and to amended. ignore the interjections. Mr WADDY (Kirribilli), Minister for Mr KEARNS: That will be easy to do. Youth and Community Services [10.4]: If .the trust for any reason is not permitted When I received the proposed amendment to function or is ·abandoned, there must be I had this matter checked. I have received some restriction on the time that it does the legal advice that those two words apply not operate. The amendment will place an to the particular Act first mentioned, what obligation on the Minister to ensure that the ever it may be, and not to the Aborigines trust is reconstituted within six months. Act. Had it been intended to refer to the Aborigines Act, then in lieu of the words Mr F. J. WALKER: Mr Chairman- "the Act" on line 23 there would have ap peared the words "this Act", the whole of Mr MAUGER (Monaro), Government section 10 being an insertion into the Whip [10.7]: I move: Aborigines Act. That the question be now put. Aborigines (Amendment) Bill [B APR., 1973] Bills Returned 4875 The Committee divided. Sir Chades Cutler MrMaddison Mr Darby MrMauger AYES, 47 Mr Doyle Mr Mead Mr Arblaster Mr Jackett MrFife Mr·Morris Sir Robert Askin. Mr Jago Mr Fischer Mr Mutton Mr Barraclough Mr Leitch MrFisher Mr Osborne Mr Jack Beale Mr Lewis Mr Freudenstein MrPunch MrBoyd Mr McCaw Mr Griffith MrRozzoli Mr Brewer Mr McGinty MrHealey Mr Singleton MrBrown Mr Mackie Mr D. B. Hunter MrTaylor Mr Bfilliner Mr Maddison Mr Jackett MrViney MrCameron Mr Mauger MrJago MrWaddy MrChaffey MrMead MrLeitch Mr N. D. Walker MrClough Mr Morris Mr L-ewis Mr Willis MrColeman Mr Mutton MrMcCaw Tellers, MrCowan Mr Osborne Mr McGinty MrMason Mr Crawford Mr Punch MrMackie MrRuddock Sir Charles Cutler Mr Ruddock Mr Darby Mr Singleton NoES, 43 MrDoyle Mr Taylor Mr Bannon M' L. B. Kelly Mr Fife Mr Viney Mr Barnier Mr R. J. Kelly Mr Fischer MrWaddy Mr Bedford Mr Mahoney MrFisher Mr N. D. Walker Mr Booth Mr Mallam Mr Freudenstein Mr Willis. Mr Cahill Mr Mulock MrGriffith Tellers, Mr Coady Mr Neilly MrHealey MrMason Mr Cox Mr Nott Mr D. B. Hunter Mr Rozzoii Mr Crabtree Mr O'Connell Mr Day Mr Paciullo Mr Degen Mr Petersen NoEs, 43 Mr Durick Mr Quinn MrBannon Mr L. B. Kelly Mr Earl Mr Ramsay Mr Barnier Mr R. J. Kelly Mr Einfeld Mr Renshaw MrBedford Mr Mahoney Mr Face Mr Ryan MrBooth MrMallam MrGordon Mr Sle>ss Mr Cahill MrMulock Mr Haigh Mr Smtthee MrCoady Mr Neilly Mr Hills Mr K. J. Stewart MrCox Mr Nott Mr M. L. Hunter Mr Wade MrCrabtree Mr O'Connell Mr Jensen Mr F. J. Walker MrDay Mr Paciullo Mr Johnstone Tellers, MrDegen Mr Petersen Mr Jones Mr Ferguson MrDurick MrQuinn Mr Kearns Mr Flaherty MrEarl MrRamsay Mr Einfeld MrRenshaw Question so resolved in the affirmative. MrFace MrRyan MrGordon MrSloss Amendment negatived. MrHaigh MrSouthee MrHills Mr K. J. Stewart Clause agreed to. Mr M. L. Hunter MrWade Mr Jensen MrF. J. Walker ADOPTION OF REPORT Mr Johnstone Tellers; Mr Jones· MrFergusO'Il! Bill reported from Committee without Mr Kearns MrF!aherty amendment, and report adopted on motion by Mr Waddy. Resolved in the affirmative. THIRD READING Question-That the words proposed to be Bill read a third. time, on motion by Mr left out stand-put. Waddy. The Committee divided. AYES~ 47 BILLS RETURNED Mr Arblaster Mr Bruxner Sir Robert Askin MrCameron The following bills were returned from Mr Barraclough MrChaffey the Legislative Council without amendment~ Mr Ja«:k Beale MrC!ough MrBoyd MrColeman Electricity Commission (State Coal Mines) M'rBrewer Mr Cowan Bin MrB'rown MrCrawford Dairy Industry (Amendment) Bill 4876 Housing and Public Works [ASSEMBLY] (Amendment) Bill HOUSING AND PUBLIC WORKS conferred on the commission and, in the (AMENDMENT) BILL result, the opportunity to acquire such par SECOND READING cels of land may well be lost. Mr BRUXNER (Tenterfield), Minister As it is intended that the Housing Com for Housing and Minister for Co-operative mission should not only fulfil the role of a Societies [10.24]: I move: housing authority constructing dwellings, That this bill be now read a second time. but should also function as a land develop ment authority, the need to acquire larger The three main objects of this bill are to areas of land becomes obvious. Further, as extend the provisions of the Housing Act, the Government intends to make land avail 1912, in relation to the acquisition of land; able as sites for intending home-seekers at to remove the restriction on the acquisition, as reasonable a price as possible, or alterna without parliamentary approval, of land for tively on favourable long-term lease con the pmposes of that Act; and to permit the ditions, it becomes. necessary to acquire resumption or appropriation of land under land in large parcels of some hundreds of the Public Works Act, 1912, without taking acres. Other,wise, bearing in mind the in existing easements. Clause 2 (a) of the bill creasing spiralling of land costs in the Syd extends the provisions of the Housing Act, ney metropolitan area over recent years, the 1912, by introducing into section 4 of that task of providing home sites at a resonable Act two subsections ( 3) and ( 4) which price for the middle and lower income will a:uthorize the commission to acquire earner will become virtually impossible. lands, in the circumstances set out in the new subsection ( 3) . Under the existing pro The commission's powers of acquisition visions of the Housing Act lands may be do not extend to acquiring such large par acquired by the commission for the purposes cels for government purposes generally. of that Act by resumption of private lands; Proposed new subsection (3) (a) will appropriation of land vested in the Crown; authorize acquisition, by any of the four purchase; and lease. means mentioned earlier, of such parcels of land of which those proposed to be A limit on the ¥alue of land that may be acquired for the purposes of the Housing acquired without parlia:mentary approval is Act form part. Consequently, an acquisi contained in section 4A, the repeal of which tion may then validly proceed without the is also proposed by the bill. For reasons need to attempt to delineate that portion which I shall shortly outline, these pro which will be used for housing purposes and visions are too restrictive in their operation the portions which may be used for other and inhibit the commission from acquiring government purposes. Lands adjoining or in parcels of land for present and future needs the vicinity of those proposed to be acquired as .the opportunity arises. Under the exist for housing purposes may also be acquired ing legislation a resumption notification can under the amendment now proposed. This only be published if the lands are required will allow acquisition at an early date of for the purposes of the Housing Act, 1912. such adjoining lands which may be utilized However, instances a:re becoming more fre for other public purposes. quent where lands, suitable for both housing and government purposes generally, come Paragraph (b) of proposed new sub under consideration for acquisition. Such section ( 3) will allow acquisition to proceed a situation occurs nol'mally at an early plan where the commission forms the opinion ning stage where it is not possible to deter that the subject lands may be required for mine what portion of the area will be re the purposes of any other Act under which quired for other public purpoSes such as the lands may be resumed or appropriated. The purposes of the State Planning Authority or situation will become immediately apparent the Department of Education and what por to honourable members when it is consid tion would be utilized for housing as such. ered that in many such situations the An acquisition of such land under existing ultimate zoning of the land under considera legislation may be challenged as not being tion may not have been settled and it would a valid exercise of the powers of acquisition be impracticable to determine the portion to Housing and Public Works [11 APR., 1973] (Amendment) Bill 4877 become available for the construction of in substantial increases in the value of land, dwellings. It is essential for the Govern between the time land is selected for the ment, through the Housing Commission, to commission's purposes and the time parlia be free to operate on a broad basis so that mentary approval can be obtained. The re adequate land holdings may be secured both sumption process, of course, does not as has for housing and other government purposes been quite wrongly suggested on numerous generally. Any delay in proceeding would occasions by the honourable member for have the serious disadvantage of other Kogarah, obtain land at cheap rates, as parties becoming interested in the acquisi whatever price is determined by the Valuer tion. This could only lead to increases General as the appropriate market price in prices at the time the land is ultimately must be met by the Housing Commission. acquired. Even worse, it may be considered In any case it is my clear understanding not a practical proposition to then proceed from representations made to me by mem with the acquisition. bers of the Opposition that they have some objections to the use of resumption process The repeal of existing section 4A will despite what their colleague might say. mean that parliamentary approval will not be a prerequisite for any land transactions by Since the amendment of the Housing Act the Housing Commission. Under the provi in December, 1971, the Housing Commis sions of the Housing (Amendment) Act, sion has taken action towards the acquisi 1971, the commission must seek the prior tion of seventeen parcels of land valued be approval of Parliament to the acquisition of tween $200,000 and $1 million. In the land the value of which exceeds $1 million. short time that has since passed the delay Previously, from 1960 to 1971, a limitation and inconvenience and loss of opportunity of $200,000 applied under this section. The to acquire land that would have resulted establishment of a division within the Hous from the submission of all these matters ing Commission to undertake the acquisition, to Parliament can well be imagined. More subdivision and disposal of land on a large over in several of these transactions the scale, is in process. The objective will be statutory limit was approached. For in twofold. Families anxious to acquire land stance site at site 7400 Quakers Hill, the and provide homes for themselves might value was $707,305; site 7400/2 Quakers ordinarily be expected to do so, except that Hill, $902,000; and site 7260 Matraville, the rate of increase in land prices in recent $800,000. times has priced them out of the land market and their need for land at a reasonable A major land acquisition programme for price is capable of being met by government subdivisional purposes and to create the re participation in this field. Second, such serve of land for the commission's ordinary participation is calculated to have the effect activities on what is expected to be a very of reducing an unhealthy rate of increase in much greater scale in future, will necessitate land prices, particularly in the Sydney the acquisition of sites in very large tracts. metropolitan area. For this purpose it is As I have mentioned, not all the land will necessary not only to add to the definitions be used for housing, but the lands will be of the scope and purposes for which land acquired in areas that can be serviced and may be acquired by the commission as pro used, at least in part, for housing. Those posed by the additional subsections of sec areas will be selected by a process of con tion 4, but also to omit from the Act the sultation between the responsible govern limitation imposed by section 4A. ment authorities. It is regarded as impera tive to the public interest that there be no Any practical purpose this section may prior disclosure of intentions to acquire ever have served has been offset over time such lands, such as would be involved in by the need to place the Housing submissions to Parliament for approval. Commission in a more advantageous I might mention that a preliminary selec position in seeking out and competing tion of thirteen such parcels of land has for land. It is not enough to rely on already been made. In four of these cases the resumption process which can still result the values ascribed to individual holdings 4S7.8 Housing and Public .Works !ASSEMBLY] {Amendment) .BiU eKceed $l millilo!t, t'.anging ia fact f.-om way or ·other easements whatsoever. Each $2 million to $4 million. The values for estate or interest ia the land becomes such land can vary widely according to converted into a claim for compensation. iocation, topography and eur.r.ent usage but at a valuation ou the f:ri.nges .of the Sydney Although the effect of these provisions is metropolitan aaea of, say, $3.,000 an acce, a that the constructing authority obtains a holding of one thousand acres would cost perfectly dear title to the land, it a1so means $3 million to acquire. that easements which were in existence prior to the resumption, and are invariably Because of the intended widening of the serving a public purpose, are also extin scale and, purpose of the Housing Commis guished. Examples of such easements in sion's activities, the need for it to increase clude those held by a supply authority for its land reserves for ordinary operations in services such as water, and sewerage, elec future, to acquire land in areas where in tricity transmission lines and the like. Also, dividual land holdings are larger, and to drainage easements often exist in favour of avoid delay, it is no longer appropriate to local .councils as ap)llurtenant t'O existing limit the size of the commission's iand public roads. Rights-of-way likewise are ex transactions. The use of the funds avail tinguished. able for the commission's purposes is sab ject to the approval of the Government It can be said that the resuming author and, as I have previously mentioned, the ity would have no desire to destroy such commission's annual reports regularly tabled easements. Yet. under existing procedures in Parliament refer to major land acquisi whereby an absolute interest in the land tions in each financial year, and will con freed of all easements is taken, they are, tinue to do so. in law. extinguished. It then beC Since the bill was drafted and introduced introductory speech did I refer to officers of into this Parliament the Commonwealth the Housing Commission and it does not Minister for Urban Development has an become the Minister to lay a smokescreen nounced a new policy that will put into around this matter in an attempt to divert operation a Commonwealth-State land any criticism I may have for his or the acquisition commission. He has made it Government's administration. I shall not in perfectly clear in his statement to the press volve the officers of the cominission even if and the media that he will be wanting the the Preinier involved the chairman of the States to do the very thing for which I Housing Commission in a public debate in seek parliamentary approval tonight-to 1971. The Opposition will not incur the acquire large tracts of land for all public wrath of the public service. Also, during utility purposes, even though only a por this debate I shall not shelter behind the tion of that land will ultimately be used for Valuer-General as the former Minister for the construction of houses. Housing did in respect of Lurnea. I want to put the record straight on this matter. In the light of this changed policy of the Commonwealth Government and the By this bill the Government proposes to incessant demands that I receive from all take away completely from Parliament its honourable members of this House and right to scrutinize submissions in relation to e~pecially from those in Opposition, t~ pro land deals. In 1971, the limit of $200,000 vide more homes for their constituents or was extended to $1 million. I wanted to the people they want to be their constitu know from the Minister tonight how many of these big deals of $1 million or more, ents, I cannot see how it will be possible which should have come to Parliament, have to achieve these aims without authority to been entered into, why there was a deal or acquire land on the open market at just why there was no submission. The Housing prices and in just circumstances. No attempt Commission was formed in 1945 and is made in the bill to hide anything from twenty-six years later the Government wants Parliament. All the transactions that will to remove from the scrutiny of the people's take place under this legislation will come Parliament large land deals. Scrutiny was under the scrutiny of Parliament through certainly justified when the limit was exten the annual reports and they will come under ded from $200,000 to $1 million. At the the scrutiny of the Auditor-General. I do time, as I said then and say again, a scandal not think even the honourable member for ous state of affairs existed in relation to the Kogarah will suggest that the Auditor Lurnea land deal. It was not the Valuer General will allow the Housing Commis General who gave advice to the Housing sion to conduct any transactions that are Cominission. The Housing Commission and improper. Accordingly I commend the bill the Minister sought from the Valuer-General to the House. a decision on what would be the value of the Mr CRABTREE (Kogarah) [10.45]: I land if certain things occurred. The Minis want to make it perfectly clear at the be ter of the day came into this House and told ginning of my remarks on behalf of the us that the land was subdivided. He said it Opposition on this Housing and Public had never been green-belt or non-urban Works (Amendment) Bill that at no time land. Those were deliberate untruths. He ?id I make any adverse references, or told us that there was kerbing and guttering mdeed any references, to officers of the on the site and that these were broad acres. Housing Cominission. For many years On the contrary, this land had not been sub I have worked closely with them; I com divided and no firm application had been miserate with them that they have had made to the Liverpool council for sub such a hopeless administration since 1965. division. Often those officers have warned the The most important thing about the trans Government of the hopelessness of its policies. I pay tribute to those officers action was that it was not a resumption but for their loyalty to this Government and to a matter of negotiation between the Askin previous governments. At no stage in my Government and Contour Developments Pty Housing and Public Works [ll APR., 1973] (Amendment) Bill 4881 Limited and Parkes Developments Pty mission rub their hands with glee if this Limited. I said then, and I say again, that Government provided 300 acres of land at because of the failure of the Govern Menai at nominal cost? That did not happen ment to use the undoubted powers because the Shylocks of the Askin Govern given to it by the Parliament, at least ment said, "We will get a valuation". The $800,000 was wasted. I wonder what stumbling block was the Minister for Lands, my federal colleagues would say if they who said to the Housing Commission, "If turned up the file and looked at this you want this land you will pay a highly transaction when the Hon S. T. Stephens competitive price." The price was so high finally said, "Anyhow, it is not our money". that the Housing Commission could not buy We must remember that the Minister at that the land. Now the Minister for Local Gov time was accepting responsibility for spend ernment proudly acclaims that he does not ing public money but he washed his hands want homes on that site at Menai but of the responsibility when he found that he would rather have a beautiful oil refinery could not describe the land and tried to mis that will suffocate the people of the dis lead the House. Then he said, "Anyhow, it trict. is not our money". This was because the land was to be used for the construction of Mr N. D. WALKER: The Sutherland homes for members of the defence force. shire council sold hundreds of blocks of This is the kind of comment that we regard land for $1,800 a block. today with deep suspicion. Mr CRABTREE: I cannot applaud the I have read the Housing Commission re Sutherland shire council either. The Minis ports and I applaud the officers of the com ter has not mentioned the State Planning mission who have prepared them. Unfor Authority, which also made a report on the tunately, the Minister and his predecessor subject. The Housing Commission recog have ignored the advice contained in the nized that the State Planning Authority has Housing Commission report for the year the power, subject to Government direction, ended 30th June, 1971. On page 4 that to acquire and set aside land. The Minister report reads: can speak now about his grand plans for The operations of land development com housing, but New South Wales has the panies prepared to buy or take options over worst land problem of any State in Aus !and well in advance of specific plans for its tralia. Every section of the news media release, have been a major contributing factor blames the present Government for its to this problem. In the Sutherland Shire> where substantial land releases at Menai are planned failure to take action since it came to office -and close integration .of private and public in 1965 to restrict the price of land. Seventy housing activities is considered to be desirable five per cent of all land released by the -the responsible planning authorities took action to include zoning proposals· in the draft State Planning Authority for development in "Interim Development Order" which defined the County of Cumberland, is in the hands land to be acquired and developed for "public of developers. The Government has never housing purposes". While the Interim Develop• ment Order was not finalized at 30th June, taken the advice given by its own Housing 1971, it does point towards a new approach Commission in 1971. Is it any wonder that which the Commission believes should be fol the Government had a head-on collision lowed in appropriate circumstances in the preparation of statutory planning schemes. with Mr Bourke, one of the most able of public servants? That officer was confronted In that report for the year to 30th June. 1971, the officers of the Housing Commis with a problem and had tied round his neck sion were advising the Government what the millstone of a lazy and sluggish Liberal should be done in regard to the acquisition Country party government. of land. The Government did not take that advice. What happened to the Crown land at On 22nd August, 1972, with a great fan Menai that the Housing Commission should fare of trumpets, the Deputy Premier came have acquired for a peppercorn rental? into this House and posed many questions Would not my friends in the Housing Com- -previously and carefully prepared so as 306 4882 Housing and Public Works [ASSEMBLY] (Amendment) Bill to be available for the next morning's press. I ask the Minister to show me documents He said that a scheme to spend $60 million from officers of the department complain on housing over five years was being pre ing that an acquisition has been delayed pared. At page 131 of Hansard of 22nd because the Parliament by law had the right August, 1972, the Deputy Premier, .taking to examine the proposition. I think the the Parliament into his confidence, said: Lurnea land scandal was just the small tip A further question I asked was, what are of the iceberg in which public funds were the prospects of releasing to the Housing Com being frittered away and the beneficiaries mission immediately unserviced outer-area were Contour and Parkes Development. land, with the Housing Commission taking What is the policy of the Government? Does full responsibility for the servicing and develop ment of that land? The answer to that-and I it want to take away the right of the Parlia have already quoted this in part earlier-was ment to know about land deals? Is it going that the Housing Commission has stocks of to have a policy of using the Housing Act land which will satisfy its needs for a few and the Public Works Act in being fair din years. kum about the acquisition of land? It did While the Deputy Premier was saying that not do that at Lurnea where there were to the House, the Housing Commission, in broad acres that were not subdivided be its report for the year ended 30th June, cause some of the people were friends of the 1972, was trying to advise him and the Government which asked the Valuer-Gen Government that it had a problem in regard eral not what the value of that land as to the acquisition of land, At page 2 of its broad acres was but what its value would report for the year ended 30th June, 1972, be if certain things were done to it. The the Housing Commission stated: file is perfectly clear on this matter. This Difficulties facing the Commission in acquir was not done by officers of the Housing ing and servicing suitable areas of land for Commission; somehow the Minister inter both immediate and future needs are both preted the advice to mean that this was sub serious and complex and current reserves in divided land. In his wild dreams to get it the major urban complexes of Sydney, New through he interpreted it as having kerbing castle and Wollongong are at a very low level. and guttering. Will the Government get a What a difference of opinion! The Country good deal for homeless people or will it Party Deputy Premier would not know have a selective policy by which the farms what a house looked like. In August, 1972, of the small workers will be resumed and he assured this House that the Housing some people with influence with the Gov Commission had plenty of land. Prior to ernment who have land will not have it re that statement to the Parliament, the Hous sumed? Will the Government negotiate as ing Commission had said in its report that it did at Lurnea with those broad acres? the land shortage was serious and complex There were thirty-six homesites and the only and that urgent and immediate action must people who received any benefit were the be taken to acquire sufficient land to meet land developers. The Government should the immediate needs for the next five years. be frank. I do not know what the Government has to hide, but the Minister has not told us I shall bring to the attention of the House anything tonight that is any different from why the Opposition opposes this legislation. the rotten nonsense we have heard over I call this the Bonnyrigg affair. I have a map the years about plans, while promises are that was prepared by the Housing Commis broken and people suffer great hardship. sion. I shall table the map so that honour Is it any wonder that there is hopelessness able members can view it. The small far in the Housing Commission, when its mers who held this land do a good job in officers are faced with mounting waiting the community; most of them supply the lists and fewer homes being built every city markets with fresh fruit and vegetables year? Is it any wonder that Parliament for the housewives. This land was declared views with suspicion the Government's as housing area 107, bounded by Smithfield wanting to take away its right to examine Road, Edensor Road, Humphries Road, a proposition? Cabramatta Road and Elizabeth Drive. One Mr Crabtree] Housing and Public Works [11 APR., 1973] (Amendment) Bill 4883 would think that land would be a good pro I have an article from the Daily Mirror position as a housing area but what hap of 24th July, 1972, about a clash between pened when the Government decided to Mr Bourke, the chairman of the Housing acquire it? The land that was already sub Commission, and the Minister. I pay tribute divided was excluded from the area. A to Mr Bourke who is a man of great courage member of the Liberal Party in another and ability. The Premier had to call Mr place has land in the area which was ex Bourke down to see him because Mr Bourke cluded from the scheme because part of it was endeavouring to force the Minister to has a bus depot on it. The file of the accept advice that he should acquire a large Housing Commission showed that it might area of land for future development. What be acquired later. has happened to the scheme of $60 million in five years? What happened to the Menai If the Government intends to acquire that scheme? What happened to the scheme at land it should be fair dinkum and acquire it Campbelltown that the Government tor now while prices are as they are. That land pedoed? What is wrong with utiliziation of is just as important to the Government of the activities of the State Planning Author New South Wales as it is to the Hon F. ity before land is handed over to develop Calabro. Everyone is entitled to the same ers? deal as the Hon F. Calabro received in rela tion to housing area 107. There must be Can the Minister assure the House that a broad policy. There is' a Government in 75 per cent of the land to be released will Canberra that will make this State Govern not be released to ten developers in the ment have a broad policy and it will make county of Cumberland? How does the Gov certain that people will not pay rent of ernment intend to go about it? Will it use more than $25 a week because of spurious its undoubted powers under the Public land deals. I do not suggest that property Works Act of 1912 and the Housing Act belonging to the little man should not be as amended from time to time, or will it acquired; there should be proper land acqui go on its way of wilful spending with a sition and the Government should enter the hopeless approach to land prices and land contest and become the greatest developer acquisition? What is the policy of the Gov of land in New South Wales. Members of ernment if it proposes to acquire all this the Opposition have said this for ages but land? What is its policy related to Crown what has been done? land auction sales? All these matters are relevant. The Opposition has been asked The Minister spoke about a motion of to give the Minister a blank cheque and to urgency. I had the unfortunate task, which say that we shall draw the curtain on land I did not relish, of moving that the former deals for evermore. It is a shocking state of Minister be dismissed. The Opposition had affairs. I know that the present Minister to do that because of the scandalous lack does not want that. I sympathize with him of activity by the Government in relation as he has been given a tough old football to this greatest of social problems. The to kick around the field, one that is not Minister has not told us what his policy filled with air but is loaded with nuts, bolts is. The federal Government should hold an and stones, and is covered with mud. inquiry before the State Government is The Minister has been given a filthy old given money to throw down the drain football to play with. He has a hard task. by giving it to another lot of developers. The Government has never co-ordinated its The Government has to prove its bona fides policy on land acquisition. In fact, it has and prove to the Commonwealth Govern never had a co-ordinated plan for land acquisition. It has not planned an attack ment that it will use the powers available on land prices to see if they might be re to it under the Housing Act and the Public duced. For those reasons alone the Opposi Works Act in the interests of people who tion will oppose this bill, not only on behalf need homes-not in the interests of de of nearly half the membership of this Parlia velopers. ment but also on behalf of the homeless 4884 Housing and Public Works [ASSEMBLY] (Amendment) Bill people of this State-the people who are that that authority has undoubted wide being robbed and forced to pay ten times powers of acquisition. Why does he not use as much for land as their neighbours paid them? This is a wide and complex question just eight years ago, when this Government which will not be solved by taking away first came into office. Over the past eight from Parliament the right to examine land years we have seen a great spiralling and in deals some of which have been held in flation of land costs. This Government serious question. stands condemned for allowing that to Mr SINGLETON (Clarence) [11.15]: I happen. wish to support the Minister in bringing I should like the Minister in his reply to forward this bill and I congratulate him on tell the House whether land acquisition has his efforts to provide adequate land for been discussed with the State Planning Auth Housing Commission homes in various areas ority. Labor's plan is to get land where the throughout the State. It is essential people need it and get it before it is released that the Housing Commission should pur and so beat Parkes Development, Contour chase land in large parcels to enable for Development, Hooker and the other de ward planning not only by the Housing veloper friends of this Government. Labor Commission but also to assist local govern will take land in broad acres and build ment authorities to plan in advance and Housing Commission homes. I should like develop services which will be required in to hear the Minister say he has conferred the future for the building up of commis with the Minister for Lands who has said sion areas. Local-government authorities in he will offer no objection to the Housing my home area are concerned to know where Commission acquiring Crown land on a in the future the commission might acquire leasehold basis even in the Minister's own parcels of land so that they can direct their electorate and perhaps at Goulburn so that attention to roads and other services which the railwaymen in that area might benefit must be developed for future requirements. by obtaining a cheap home. That would be I hope the Minister will complete his a beauty. It can be done but this Govern plans to offer fully serviced blocks of land ment has done nothing. It would not even touch Menai and has deprived hundreds of to young people. I hope the Government families of homes in that area despite the will ensure that young people of the fact that the commission purchased land future will have the opportunity to purchase a block of land at cost so there. that they might own a home of their I sincerely hope that the Minister, in his own. This to me is the democratic right of own interests, can convince this House that every Australian citizen. With the amount there has been a real change in policy. I of money available today through banks, should like to hear about conferences he has building societies and other avenues, people had with his colleagues and high-level offi who own a block of land have no difficulty cials. We know that recently he had an in obtaining finance to build a home. Much abortive discussion with the Deputy Premier can be achieved by the Housing Commis and got nowhere. That discussion did not sion providing fully serviced blocks of land deliver the goods. All this Government bas for young people who want to build their done since the change of administration in own home. This would relieve the State of Can berra is to abort the Menai proposal and the need to construct homes and subse stop development at Campbelltown. In plain quently to service them. I am sure this plan and frank Australian, the Opposition wants introduced by the Minister will help to con the Minister to level with this Parliament. trol soaring land prices. Earlier the honour We should like to know what his plans are able member for Kogarah said land prices and how he is co-ordinating those plans. He had soared ten times in the life of this Gov cannot do these things on his own; he m•1st ernment. I do not think his figures are fac discuss them with the authorities. What does the Minister for Local Government think tual. The honourable member for Kogarah about the powers of the State Planning is well aware that soaring land prices are a Authority? The Minister for Housing knows world-wide problem. It exists not only in Mr Crabtree] Housing and Public Works [11 APR., 1973] (Amendment) Bill 4885 New South Wales but also throughout Aus about only two months, has been doing a tralia and indeed in most other parts of the wonderful job in standing up to this pres world. Authorities throughout the · world sure from Canberra, and ensuring that the have said that it is a world-wide problem. young people in New South Wales will one People with money want to invest large day have an opportunity to own their own sums in a little bit of soil to give them the homes. I hope the bill will go through in security which does not seem to exist in its entirety, and I trust that the Minister will other avenues of investment. I implore the use the provisions of the bill to ensure that Minister to look at Grafton and the need large quantities of land are available in all for the commission to secure a large tract country centres for the building of homes of land in that city. At Grafton the com for the needy in this State. I trust that mission has one block of land available, with those homes will be available for sale to another twenty blocks at an advanced stage every family living in them.· I have great of development for use in the near pleasure in supporting this measure which future. Grafton is located in a district I hope will lead to every needy family in which between 1946 and 1970 suffered New South Wales being provided with a a decline in population. I ask the hon home, thus overcoming the backlog in hous ourable member for Kogarah to note ing in this State. that that decline was throughout the Mr BEDFORD (Fairfield) [11.22]: I entire reign of the former Labor Govern shall speak briefly on this measure, for the ment in this State. However, over the past main points have been covered by the hon four years the trend has reversed. A survey ourable member for Kogarah. I was in recently taken by the board of directors of terested to learn how selective the honour Grafton base hospital revealed that for the able member for Clarence has been in read first time in over twenty years the popula ing Labor Party policy and history. He tion of the district has increased. The actual mentioned some comments that were made increase in population over the past four by Mr Dedman about a quarter of a century years has been 300. ago, but I was pleased that he had read also I hope that the Housing Commission will the current policy of the New South Wales move at an early date to acquire a large branch of the Australian Labor Party, area of land at Grafton, where about eighty which states that we believe that land should families, although not all approved by the be acquired by the State, serviced, and sold commission, are really in need of accom at cost to young people who require it. That modation. Their numbers are growing week principle has been enunciated on a number by week as a result of an upsurge of interest of occasions by our leader. I am certainly throughout the country areas of New South glad that a member of the Country Party Wales; this upsurge is bringing more people has read this policy and believes in it; I to the North Coast and other country areas. hope he will push it through the structure I have been very concerned since 2nd De of his own party, and perhaps later it will cember by the statements issued by the spread to the Liberal Party as well. Only Commonwealth Minister for Housing. I in this way will the young people of New remember that in 1947, when Mr Dedman South Wales have an opportunity to get a was the Commonwealth Minister in charge serviced block of land. of housing, he said that he would not en The tragedy these days is that 40,000 courage people to own their own homes families are on the waiting list of the Hous and develop a lot of little capitalists in this ing Commission in New South Wales. This country. I was fearful when the present number, which is growing, represents prob Commonwealth Minister embarked on a ably about 100,000 people who are awaiting campaign similar to that which was pursued accommodation. The work that needs to be when Labor lost office in 1949. done by the Housing Commission must be I pay tribute to the Minister for Housing of concern to the officers of the commis and Minister for Co-operative Societies sion; it certainly causes concern to members who, although he has held his portfolio for of Parliament who, in their constituencies, 4886 Housing and Public Works [ASSEMBLY] (Amendment) Bill having people corning to them and telling sent came through, and in the meantime them the most terrible tales of woe. Know they would pay interest on the balance at ing that our hands are tied, we have to say the rate of 7 per cent. The poor people to these people: "It is a matter of how were conned into being lenders of cheap long you have been on the list. However, money at 7 per cent. If they went any I will write to the Minister to see what can where, even to a bank, they would have to be done". The Minister must have floods pay more than 7 per cent. This was the of letters. We have to give a standard way these people were conned. However, reply, and we know that there is this lock in the three years that have elapsed since step system, with people waiting their turn then raw land in the same area is fetch on the list-unless they pick up a winning ing $14,000 an acre. What chance has the lottery ticket. Housing Commission of getting any of that land? I have mentioned these things in pass ing, and I shall now address myself to the If we are fair dinkum in this State Parlia bill. The honourable member for Kogarah ment and really believe in the charter of mentioned that 75 per cent of land that the Housing Commission, the need for has been released on the fringes of the city houses for young people, and the need is now in the hands of ten major companies. for land to be available to young people I refer to this because this Parliament did at cost so that they can construct their not have the opportunity to debate the houses on it, we should ensure that when Sydney region outline plan. The plan was acquisitions of land are made under this handed on a plate to the people of New bill, these people will be told of the wind South Wales, showing where development fall they have gained in the past four years, would take place in the next few decades. of about $9,000 an acre, for land which they Naturally the people who could see a fast have not developed and for which they buck in it moved in to take options or to have not yet paid. They could then be paid buy the land at cheap prices. Many of reasonable compensation for any develop them have not yet paid for the land that ments on the land in the past three years, they got on contract sales or options; they but paid the sort of price that they paid for are sitting on it out there, when it should it three years ago. It can be pointed out to be in the hands of the Housing Commis them that they have done nothing with the sion. I do not mean that all of it should land in the meantime. This is the only way be in the hands of the Housing Commis the Housing Commission will get enough sion, but certainly many acres should be. land to do what is needed. I can give examples of price changes that If the price of land keeps increasing, have occurred since the outline plan was other legislation will be needed to permit announced. I was surprised to hear the acquisition of land in excess of $1 00 mil Minister mention that on the fringe of the lion for the Housing Commission. I sug city land can be bought for $3,000 an acre. gest that people who have sat on land That land would have to be a fair way should be approached in this way. If they out, and certainly it would be well clear paid for it my mortgage sale, that is fair of the released area on the western fringes enough, but when they have used the con of Sydney. But the fact of the matter is tract sale or option basis, they should be that, since the announcement was made, the pulled back to the field and taken back to development companies saw an opportunity the real price. In this way it can be sold either to take options on the land or to buy to the people to whom it properly belongs. it by contract sales. That means that they have not yet paid for it. Many of them Mr BRUXNER (Tenterfield), Minister paid about one-quarter deposit to the for Housing and Minister for Co-operative owners, and bought the land in those days Societies T11.30], in reply: The honourable member for Kogarah, in spite of my assur for about $4,000 to $5,000 an acre. They ance, which apparently he is not willing to said to the owner that they would pay him accept, and in spite of the fact that I refer· the balance when the development con- red to the tabling of papers in the case of Vr Bedford] Housing and Public Works [11 APR., 1973] (Amendment) Bill 4887 the acquisition of land at Lurnea, has in The inflection that he used was meant to sisted that something improper has occur ~uggest that once again it was something red. He has talked about mud. One of his Improper. colleagues interjected and talked about mud. The hon~urable member has not brought Mr CRABTREE: That is right. any specific case of impropriety in those Mr BRUXNER: The honourable mem deals other than to repeat the accusations ber for Kogarah might confer with the hon that ~e made here eighteen months ago. The ourable member for Merrylands who files In that case have lain upon the table brought the first deputation that I received of the House since the end of 1971 and . in my new office. The deputation was repre- neither the honourable member nor anyone sentative of the Bonnyrigg Residents' Action else has bothered to raise this matter. He is Group, some of the Italian farmers to whom rehashing what was originally a weak case the honourable member referred and the and his rehash has become even weaker. Australian people in the area. There was a The honourable member adopted a woman representative to speak for herself reasonable tone in the debate and in re and her fellow women. The deputation sub futing his charges I do not want to throw mitted a long list of questions that required back any of the words he used but he detailed answers. I undertook to provide should be the last in this House to talk those answers within ten days so that the about a football full of air. He made many honourable member for Merrylands could airy statements tonight. He then sought to distribute them to all members of this action defend the officers of the department and group and so that they could be discussed made particular reference to the chairman at a public meeting in Bonnyrigg. That was of the Housing Commission, Mr Bourke. in the first week in February, and the hon The honourable member implied that the ourable member for Merrylands has told me Government and I as Minister in charge of that he is perfectly satisfied with the answers the Housing Commission lacked confidence that we gave him and his constituents. He in Mr Bourke. I put it on record tonight that has not raised the question of Bonnyrigg I have the utmost confidence in Mr Bourke with me since. I suggest that the honourable as chairman of the Housing Commission. I member keep his eye on Sans Souci and hope that he has the same confidence in me leave Bonnyrigg to the competent honour as his Minister. able member for Merrylands. The honourable member for Kogarah in The honourable member for Kogarah re troduced his discussion by saying that the ferred, too, to the fact that the Government Government is wiiiing to resume the homes had proposed to acquire land at Menai for housing development and he said that this of little workers but to leave alone people scheme was torpedoed-to use his word with influence. Let us look at the Bonny after the federal Government came to office. rigg acquisition. Because the honourable The federal Government was elected on 2nd member produced a map, I shall produce December last year and the Government the same map. On 14th January, 1972, Gazette notice releasing the proclamation at about 300 acres of land at Bonnyrigg were Menai was in September-two months be covered by a housing area proclamation. fore the federal Government came to office. This action followed discussions with He then detailed one case. I asked him to officers of the State Planning Authority. give me examples of what he considered Incidentally the honourable member said were actions that should come under criti that the commission does not have discus cism. His criticism referred to an honour sions with the State Planning Authority. able member in another place who is unable Those discussions indicated that the land concerned would be available for residen to defend himself in this House. Therefore tial development in the period 1975 to 1980, it is my duty to refer to the charges that the although certain sections of the area could honourable member for Kogarah made. He be required for other uses or may not be started his reference to this part of his entirely suitable for building purposes. Pro speech by referring to the Bonnyrigg affair. gressive action has been taken to acquire 4888 Housing and Public Works [ASSEMBLY] (Amendment) Bill by resumption a major part of the area development with private housing, which included in the proclamation. The first would have added substantially to acquisi· order was signed by my predecessor and tion costs and would have done the very the following three have been signed by me. thing to which the honourable member ob jects-removed some people from their Mr CRABTREE: What areas did they homes. None of that land is owned by the cover? Hon F. Calabro or his brother. The third Mr SPEAKER: Order! I think the honour parcel is at the corner of Edensor and Bulls able member for Kogarah should subside roads. This land has been left available at the for a while. specific request of the honourable member for Merrylands to allow the construction of Mr BRUXNER: The proclaimed area is a Yugoslav-Australia club, to provide com shown on the plan I have before me. I munity amenities. There are representations apologize to the House for these details from the honourable member for Merry but the honourable member has the same lands on this matter. My predecessor recom map and I should like to refer to the de mended that these be adopted and it was tails so that I can clear his mind of his my pleasure to see that they were adopted. suspicions about a member in another place. I wish this new Yugoslav-Australia club The proclaimed area is shown on the map every success in the important work it will and is bounded by Smithfield, Edensor, carry out. Those attending that club will Humphries and Cabramatta roads and Eli be the very workers for whom the honour zabeth Drive. Would the honourable mem able member for Kogarah says. the Govern ber like to have this· map? It is marked in ment has no consideration. colours. The next parcel is at the corner of Eliza Mr CRABTREE: So is the one I have. beth Drive and Bulls Road. It has been Mr BRUXNER: Are the colours in the excluded because on it is built a Prospect proper place? I want the honourable mem County Council electricity sub-station. That ber to be quite clear. The areas excluded would be a valuable piece of development from the resumption are shown in the red to have on a new area on which it and blue edging. I hope that the honour is hoped to build houses. None of able member can recognize the difference that land is owned by the Hon F. between red and blue. The red edging rep Calabro or his brother. The next par resents the land owned by Calabro· Brothers cel is at the corner of Cabramatta and Burns Pty Limited or the Hon F. Calabro. The blue roads and is excluded because of existing edging indicates other ownership. The area extensive development. On the parcel of covered by the blue edging or other owner land marked with the blue edging there are ship is much greater than the area owned six cottages of such a standard as to make by Calabro Brothers Pty Limited or the acquisition costs very high, so they must Hon F. Calabro. The areas excluded from be good homes and there must be people the resumption and the underlying reason living in them. The rest of the land, hatched for the exclusion are as follows: the first in red, which is very much smaller than the area is all that land fronting Smithfield part I have referred to, is the site of the Road and contains some fairly large parcels. home of the Hon F. Calabro and includes This area is generally low-lying and con land owned by Calabro Brothers Pty Lim sidered unsuitable for housing. It is under ited on which there is a service station stood that it has been chosen for use as establishment and two cottages. open space or part of a service or com munication corridor. None of that land is The last parcel of land is on the corner of Elizabeth Drive and Bibby's Road. The owned by the Hon F. Calabro or his brother. major part of this land is owned by Calabro Brothers Pty Limited and is used The second section is at the corner of as a bus depot. That section is hatched in Bibby's and Edensor roads. This is excluded colour. There are three blocks-A, B and. b~cause Of fue ffiten§iVe ),}at!ITe ~f existing J2. Block B, the centre block, is the one Housing and Public Works [11 APR., 1973] (Amendment) Bill 4889 on which the bus depot is erected. It is by a process of consultation between the considered, again for use as a community responsible government authorities. Those facility, that this depot should stay where consultations have been taking place almost it is. The two blocks on either side of the daily ever since the Deputy Premier made bus depot, one of which is a corner block, the announcement. were originally intended by the State Plan The Deputy Premier said that the Corn ning Authority to be set aside for com mission had not spent any money, and the munity use. It has now been decided that reason is that under legislation introduced alternative use can be made of this area of by the Labor Party the State Planning Au land. The Housing Commission has recom thority was the only body that could spend mended its resumption and the resump more than $1 million. The commission tion notices have been issued to the has had to let that authority spend the Hon F. Calabro. I have gone into money and then acquire from it the land it these matters in some detail because has bought. The State Planning Authority the honourable member for Kogarah has allocated $5 million to buy land and the made an accusation against a mem Housing Commission will be responsible for ber in another place. On behalf of that developing that land. Surely that is a suffi member I have replied here and I hope cient answer to the honourable member for that my reply will be acceptable to even Kogarah and his objections to this bill. Had the most critical member of this House. this legislation been in force, the commis The honourable member for Kogarah sion could have bought land, but it has had said that it is imperative that we beat the to let the State Planning Authority do so. developers and acquire the broad acres. I The honourable member for Kogarah did am asking Parliament to approve a measure not raise any objection when his colleagues that will allow the Government to do that passed legislation giving the State Planning without being tied and hamstrung by a price Authority the right to buy land without limit. The honourable member for Fairfield limit. This Government is asking for the has admitted that the limit is inadequate. same treatment for the Housing Commis The honourable member challenged my sion and the honourable member suggests statement that land could be bought in these that it will do something underhand. If any areas at $3,000 an acre and mentioned a thing underhand is done, it will be done figure of $14,000 an acre. The honour over my signature, and if the honourable able member is proving my point, and I member for Kogarah can show good thank him. He represents an electorate ground, I shall be happy to ask to be re where the Government wants to build lieved of my portfolio pending any enquiry homes for people to live in. If my estimate that the Government orders. I have said of $3,000 should have been $14,000, then it previously, and I say it for the third time I should be asking the House to allow the -the Housing Commission must submit its Government to acquire land far above $1 annual report to this Parliament and that million in value. report is subject to the scrutiny of the It was said by the honourable member for Auditor-General. Kogarah that since the Deputy Premier, The necessity for this bill could not be Minister for Local Government and Minis better put than it was by a member of the ter for Highways had announced a new Labor Party, a member of this Parliament, policy in regard to land acquisition and who at one time was a member of the development the Government had had no Housing Commission. The Hon. F. W. consultation with the State Planning Au Bowen, who led for the Opposition in an thority or any other Government depart other place when the amending Act was ment. The honourable member might have passed to raise the limit to $1 million. paid me the compliment of listening to my said that he agreed with the measure "be second-reading speech. I shall repeat what cause with the increase in land prices and I said: a major land acquisition programme the necessity to find more land we will see for subdivisional purposes is expected in the bills like this coming before the House with near future and those areas will be selected monotonous regularity". If I had asked 4890 Housing and Public Works [ASSEMBLY] (Amendment) Bill this House to lift the limit from $1 million as to where and how the money would be 'to $2 million, in a few months time I would spent, even as far as the insertion of a be back asking for the limit to be lifted to clause placing a limit on the number of $3 million. That is why the bill proposes floors in a building and the number of the repeal of this section. people who could live in an area of so many square feet. I have already expressed appreciation of the contribution made by the honourable Mr CRABTREE: It is about time there member for Fairfield. The honourable was a restriction on high-density housing. member has in his area a most acute hous ing problem. That has never been denied. Mr BRUXNER: It is about time the hon The honourable member for Kogarah says ourable member for Kogarah read the that the Government is not aware of the transcript of the conference. The Common problem. wealth deleted those two clauses. I have Mr CRABTREE: You are aware of it but given the !House a more than adequate you do not do anything about it. account in relation to the activities of the Mr BRUXNER: The honourable mem Housing Commission that were challenged ber for Kogarah has suggested that I am by the honourable member for Kogarah. I not willing to come to any agreement that was in the House when the debate took will relieve the housing problem in this place on the amending bill in 1971. The State. Although the typing is not com Minister who was in the chair at the table plete, I invite the honourable member to at that time is not here now and if the my room and to read the transcript of every honourable member for Kogarah wants to word that was spoken at the Housing Min level any further criticism at the Housing ister's conferences at Canberra and Adel aide. When these papers are typed, I shall Ministers in New South Wales he had bet be pleased to table them in this House. I ter fire it straight at me and I shall be here challenge any honourable member to say, to fire it back at him. after reading that transcript, that at those conferences the New South Wales Gov Question-That this bill be now read a ernment did not put a case on behalf of second time-put. needy families. If the honourable member The House divided. for Kogarah reads through the conference debates he will see that the Commonwealth AYES, 47 had to admit to the justice and strength of Mr Arblaster Mr Leitch the case put by the State of New South Mr Barraclough MrLewis Wales. That was one of the reasons why Mr Jack Beale MrMcCaw some major concessions were achieved in MrBoyd MrMcGinty place of the proposals in the original draft MrBrewer MrMackie MrBrown MrMaddison agreement. Mr Bruxner MrMason MrCameron MrMauger I thank the honourable member for MrChaffey Mr Mead Clarence who spoke in this debate as a MrClough Mr Morris country member. I consider that he spoke MrCowan Mr Mutton as a representative of all provincial towns Mr Crawford Mr Osborne Sir Charles Cutler Mr Punch and cities in this State, though he instanced Mr Darby Mr Rozzoli only Grafton. I can assure the honourable MrDuncan Mr Ruddock member for Clarence that one of the MrFife Mr Singleton reasons I fought so hard at the housing Mr Fischer MrTaylor agreement conference was my determina MrFisher MrViney Mr Freudenstein MrWaddy tion to resist the suggestion that the Com Mr Griffith Mr N. D. Walker monwealth Minister for Housing would MrHealey Mr Willis Mr D. B. Hunter Tellers, direct each State not only as to how much Mr Jackett MrColeman money it would receive each year, but also MrJago MrDoyle Housing and Public Works [11 APR., 1973] (Amendment) Bill 4891 NOES, 44 Mr K. J. STEWART: I would not give you MrBannon Mr Kearns any help. Mr Barnier Mr L. B. Kelly Mr Bedford Mr R. J. Kelly The CHAIRMAN: Order! I call the hon Mr Booth Mr Mahoney ourable member to order for the first time. MrCoady Mr Mulock MrCox MrNeilly Mr K. J. STEWART: Call me for the MrCrabtree MrNott second time. MrDay Mr O'Connell Mr Degen Mr Paciullo The CHAIRMAN: Order! I call the hon MrDurick Mr Petersen Mr Earl MrQuinn ourable member for Canterbury to order Mr Einfeld MrRamsay for the second time. Mr Face MrRenshaw MrFerguson MrRyan Mr K. J. STEWART: Do it three times. Mr Flaherty Mr Sloss Mr Gordon Mr Southee The CHAIRMAN: Order! I call the hon MrHaigh Mr K. J. Stewart ourable member for Canterbury to order Mr Hills MrWade for the third time. I am endeavouring to Mr M. L. Hunter Mr F. J. Walker explain to the honourable member for Koga Mr Jackson Mr Jensen Tellers, rah that we are now at the Committee Mr Johnstone Mr Cahill stage and he is not entitled to continue his Mr Jones Mr Mallam second-reading speech. Question so resolved in the affirmative. Mr L. B. KELLY: He is allowed to speak Motion agreed to. to the clause. Bill read a second time. Mr CRABTREE: I am referring to a proposition relating to resumption, appro IN COMMITTEE priation, purchase and lease of land. I was Clause 2 giving instances showing that the Govern ment has no positive policy. Mr CRABTREE (Kogarah) [12.2 a.m.]: In regard to the Government's policy in Mr L. B. KELLY: That is quite right. the resumption, appropriation, purchase and The CHAIRMAN: Order! I call the hon lease of land the Minister has already told ourable member for Corrimal to order for us that, in regard to the Bonnyrigg affair, the first time. as I term it, he has had second thoughts about acquisition. I am casting no asper Mr CRABTREE: The proposal in this sions; I am merely asking for an explana bill does not give any indication that the tion. The Minister has had second thoughts Government has a positive policy of acquisi about this matter and the land owned by Mr Calabro, or part of it, will be subject tion and resumption of land. At the second to resumption. That proposal should have reading stage I gave instances of what has been in the initial plan of resumption. happened. The Opposition is disappointed The Lurnea file-- that the Minister cannot inform the House The CIIAmMAN: Order! The member what his policy will be-whether it is a for Kogarah under the guise of speaking policy of acquisition, negotiation or what. to clause 2 is continuing his second-reading The Minister should attempt to reduce the speech and endeavouring to answer some high price that people are forced to pay thing said by the Minister at the second to acquire a homesite. reading stage. Clause agreed to. Mr K. J. STEWART: He is not doing that at all. ADOPTION OF REPORT The CHAIRMAN: Order! I do not want Bill reported from Committee without any help from the honourable member for amendment, and report adopted on motion Canterbury. by Mr Bruxner. 4892 Housing Bill [ASSEMBLY} N.S.W. Retirement Bill THIRD READING under the age of 30 years who have an Bill read a third time, on motion by Mr option to vary their contribution rate at 1st Bruxner. July, 1973. The board's advisory service has been giving one-homly lectures on the new scheme to employees of the Public BILLS RETURNED Transport Commission, Department of The following bills were returned from Motor Transport, and parking police and the Legislative Council without amendment: special constables in the Police Department. It is estimated that by Easter the advisory Audit (Amendment) Bill service will have covered 11,000 miles and Police Regulation (Superannuation and made contact with approximately 15,000 Appeals) Amendment Bill employees. These employees would be fol Public Service (Amendment) Bill lowed at varying stages by some 50,000 employees without any cover and spread NEW SOUTH WALES RETIREMENT over some seventy employing authorities BENEFITS (AMENDMENT) BILL for example, the State Dockyard, Depart ment of Main Roads and the Metropolitan SECOND READING Water Sewemge ·and Drainage Board. The Mr MADDISON (Hornsby), Minister of next groups to be ·admitted at different Justice 1[12.7 a.m.]: I move: stages would rbe employees covered by the That this bill be now read a second time. transport retirement fund, other than those already transferred, the railway superannua When introducing the New South Wales tion account and the non-contributory Retirement Benefits Bill into the House in scheme. September, 1972, I gave special emphasis to the fact that the new scheme was to be Finally, the scheme would be extended to introduced gradually to specified groups of employees covered by minor funds after in employees in order to moderate the cost vestigation by the Bureau of Government element inherent in a new scheme which Superannuation Research. If the Govern provides benefits where none exist already ment adheres in broad terms to these and increases the benefits provided by exist pr~orit~es, some employees thTough age or ing schemes. Within the concept of a circumstances will be retired or will die gradual introduction of the scheme and hav before the scheme is offered to them, where ing -regard to the admin~stmtive problems of as -other emrployeesr will become entitled to obtaining historical data to provide election the cover of the fund. This is a particular options for some 100,000 employees within problem where the introductory period approximately seventy employer organiza covers different groups of employees at tions, it has been estimated that it would varying dates within the same employer take two to three years to complete the organization, for example, the Public Trans introductory period for the new scheme. port Commission, where the employees can be either new employees on completion of The order of priority laid down for ad twelve monJths' service, contributors to the mission of .the various groups of employees transport retirement fund under or over age is as f'ollows: from 1st July, 1973, new 30, contributors to the railways superannua employees who otherwise would have been tion account, employees covered by non-con able to join the then closed transport retire tributory gratuity scheme or employees not ment fund will be given, on a continuing covered by any scheme. basis, an option to join the fund as they complete twelve months' service. Addi At the time of the passing of the initial tionally, contributors rto the transport re legislation it was the Government's inten tirement fund who are under the age of 30 tion to extend the benefits of the scheme will be automatically transferred to the new gradually to employer groups of employees scheme from that date. Election forms have rather than to cover age groups within all been forwarded to approximately 11,000 employer organizations. However, because contributors in the transport retirement fund of the realization of the problems of elderly New South Wales Retirement [11 APR., 1973] Benefits (Amendment) Bili 4893 employees generally approaching retirement and are eligible to contribute to the fund at without superannuation cover or with dis the first opportunity after 1st July, 1973. advantaged superannuation cover, and be The immediate maximum liability for these cause of representations made by many 120 employees on a join-today-retire-to of those people, the Government has given morrow basis has been estimated at $1.1 further consideration to its original inten million. tion. Investigation by the board into the There are approximately 4,000 employees requirements of section 13 of the Act for in the Public Transport Commission in the the employee who is aged 60 years or more age 60 and over group, of whom a very at the point of entry to the fund has re small minority would be without any retire vealed that the initial cost impact of this ment cover and eligible for early admission particular group of employees is beyond the to the scheme. The remainder would be capacity of employers to meet immediately. covered by either the transport retirement As the Act now stands, the older-age em fund, the Railways superannuation account ployee-that is, 59 or age 60 or more o~ ~he gratuity scheme--each group being could elect to contribute for the maximum ehgtble for entry from different dates. benefit of twice his annual salary at age 60. Assuming that the maximum employer If he is over 60 he can join the fund, con liability fell due on the one day on a join tribute for a period of two weeks and then today-retire-tomorrow basis, this liability retire. Because of the lump-sum entitle has been estimated at $74 million. This ment he should have no difficulty in bor would represent in the year that it occurred rowing money for the short period involved a total cash payment of approximately $60 to meet the balance of his contribution million more than would be payable in that liability. The employer would thereupon be year under existing schemes. faced with an immediate liability, which Although assessment of the initial cost could be as high as four times the em has been confined to these two employer ployee's share of the benefit. Under these organizations, it is evident that where there conditions it is conceivable that there could are eligible employees in the older-age be a mass exodus of the older-age employees bracket a similar high cost element will as they are admitted to the scheme. This emerge. This is particularly so where there disruption of the normal retirement pattern are relatively large groups of eligible em would have a disastrous effect on the fin ployees in such other organizations as the ancial and physical resources of certain em Department of Main Roads, the Maritime ployers. Services Board, the metropolitan water Where the fund is being introduced to board, the Department of Agriculture and departments and authorities in which the the Department of Public Works. It is con majority of employees are already covered ceivable in these circumstances that if the by the State superannuation fund or the Government adhered to its original local government funds, the effect of the intention, the introductory period would foregoing would not be great in most cases. become open-ended and extend over There are other instances, however, where a period of some five to ten years. the effect would be dramatic; for example, Thus an employee age 59 now could the State Dockyard and the Public Trans miss out altogether, while an employee port Commission. The State Dockyard age 55 who otherwise would have con operates on a commercial basis in a de tributed for five years would find himself pressed industry. It has been stated by the with the advantage of being in the 60-and dockyard that any significant additional over group. overhead costs not applicable to its com The Government has, therefore, in the petitors could jeopardize the entire opera interests of fairness to the employees ap tion. There are approximately 120 out of proaching retirement, had to reconsider its 1,200 employees of the State Dockyard in approach. Faced with the problem of com the age 60 and over group. All of these pounding the inequity for the employee who employees are without any retirement cover, will not be given the option to join the fund 4894 New South Wales Retirement [ASSEMBLY] Benefits (Amendment) Bill prior to his retirement, the Government has insert a new paragraph in section 32 and decided to vary the present concept of to provide, that where a pension benefit gradualism from one which moderates the is payable, the employer's liability shall be cost by staggering the entry to the fund to in proportion to the pension benefit and a concept which staggers the cost by chang shall be payable in respect of periods speci ing the retirement benefit from a lump-sum fied by the board. Clause 3 provides, by benefit with pension options to a pension way of schedule ( 1), consequential and only benefit on retirement for certain classes machinery amendments to the principal Act of contributors. to give effect to the amendments enunciated The bill seeks to amend the New South in clause 2. Wales Retirement Benefits Act of 1972 to Clause 4 declares 1st July, 1973, as the provide for the payment of a pension only election date for all eligible employees who for certain groups of employees and, at the will be age 60 or more as at that date. same time, gives these groups of employees Any other employee who turns age 60 after an early entry option from the commence 1st July, 1973, and before his particular ment of the principal Act; that is, 1st July, group is fully embraced by the scheme 1973. Clause 2 (a) will amend section 13 will be entitled to an election to join the of the principal Act to provide that any fund on his sixtieth birthday. Schedule 2 employee who is aged 60 or more at his lists the employer organization to whom the election date shall now contribute for a amendments will apply. pension benefit on the same basis as if he were contributing for a lump-sum benefit. It can be seen from the amendment that Clause (2) (b) will amend section 26 of some employees who may have otherwise the principal Act by inserting three new been denied the benefits of the fund-the subsections together with consequential aged 60-and-over group--will now have an amendments to give effect to the option to join the new scheme from the amendment. commencement date of 1st July, 1973. The new subsections provide for the pay Additionally, other employees will have the ment of a pension benefit only on retire option to join the fund at their sixtieth ment at or after age 60 for, first, the con birthday or the election date for their par tributor who was age 60 or more at point ticular group, whichever is the sooner. of entry to the fund; second, the contributor To moderate the initial cost impact for who was under age 60 at point of entry the employer organizations, the retirement and who does not complete five years' con benefit has been changed from a lump-sum tinuous service as a contributor to the fund benefit to a pension-only benefit for the on his retirement. The contributor has an employee who is age 60 or more at entry option to select a pension that can 'be either to the fund and for any other employee a pension for life alone, a smaller pension who is under age 60 at entry and does not for life with provision for a residual of complete five years' continuous contributory five-eights of the original pension for the service at his retirement. The contributor surviving spouse, or a still smaller pension aged 55 or more but less than 60 at entry that provides for a 10 per cent increase at can still qualify for the lump-sum benefit three-yearly intervals. Similar options are on completion of five years' continuous contained in the principal Act. The amount service as a contributor to the fund, and of pension payable to the contributor fol should he so desire, he may retire at any lowing his election shall be calculated by time after age 60 and be paid a pension the board on an actuarial basis, having re benefit. gard to the total amount that otherwise would have been payable. Honourable members will recall that Under section 32 of the principal Act the earlier I mentioned that the facility of a employer's portion of any benefit is pay lump-sum benefit on retirement would en able to the board in the form of a lump-sum able the contributor to finance his portion on benefit emergence. Clause 2 (c) will of the total benefit from other sources and Mr Maddison) New South Wales Retirement [11 APR., 1973] Benefits (Amendment) Bill 4895 are, no doubt, thinking that the payment of Acceptance by the individual of the new a fortnightly pension equivalent of that lump scheme with the proposed amendments will sum will offset this advantage and thus deny vary depending upon his present retirement access to the fund to the employee who cover, if any. otherwise may have joined. Section 13 of the New South Wales Retirement Benefits The new concessional treatment of super Act requires the board to determine not annuation payments for the means test only the rate and period of contribution under ·the Commonwealth social services, for the employee aged 60 or more at entry, coupled with the stated intention of the but also the action to be taken when a federal Government to lift the means test benefit emerges before the contributor has within three years, will remove many of the contributed in full for his portion of the present reservations about a pension benefit. For the employee without any cover at the total benefit. moment a pension benefit is better than The principal Act already provides that nothing. For employees covered by other when contributions are in arrears at bene schemes, such as the transport retirement fit emergence, the benefit is calculated as if fund, the ·railways superannuation account the total employee portion had been paid; and the gratuity scheme, transfer is optional the employer subsidy as determined by ser and .they will need to examine carefully the vice and the nominal employee portion is new proposal in relation to their existing then calculated and the outstanding em cover. The board's advisory service will be ployee contributions are deducted from the available and employees .affected by the pro total benefit. Thus the employee is not pos:al will be given every assistance to make denied the employer portion of the total an election based on an effective comparison benefit. Without this provision, the em of the schemes involved. ployee who is favourably placed financially will have no restriction on joining and thus Let me give the eX!ample of an employee become entitled to the benefits of the fund, aged 63 with forty years'_ service who was but the less favourably placed employee on an annual wage of $4,300 at age 60. would be denied similar consideration. Should he elect to join the scheme for the maximum benefit of twice his annual wage The effect of the foregoing can be sum at 60 and decide to retire immediately, his marized as follows. Using the same condi total benefit would, after addition of com tions for assessing the maximum initial cost, pound interest, be made up of $10,000 from I point out that the State Dockyard would the employee and $20,000 from the em be liable for an annual liability of $92,000 ployer-in total $30,000. The total benefit in lieu of a once-off cost of $1.1 million. would •be converted into a pension of The Public Transport Commission's annual $116.64 a fortnight for the contributor liability has been assessed at $6.1 million alone and where provision is made for a as against a once-off cost of $76 million. residual pension for the surviving spouse, This cost will be spread over the life ex the initial pension would be $93.33 a fort pectancy of the pensioner, producing a night reducing to $58.33 a fortnight on graduated cost increase over twelve to death of the former contributor. Though fifteen years. employees transferring from other funds From the employee viewpoint, the im such as the transport retirement fund and mediate payment of a pension for all em the milways superannuation account will ployees in this group is far more equitable bring some equity with them, if it is assumed than an extended open-ended introductory that the employee pays little, if any, con period under which certain groups of retir tribution and the pension is to be calculated, ing employees would receive substantial in the main, on the employer portion, the lump sums while other employees in com parable groups, because of their age and single pension would be $77.76 a fortnight circumstances and the gradualism approach, and the married 11ate $62.22 a fortnight with would have no opportunity of obtaining any residual five-eighths thereof of $38.89 a retirement or death benefit from the fund. fortnight 4896 New South Wales Retirement [ASSEMBLY] Benefits (Amendment) Bill The comparative situation in the railways son" where appearing in clause 2, page 4, superannuation account would be $61.54 a line 13 of the bill. I commend the bill to fortnight with provision for a pension of the House. $9 a fortnight for the widow. The employee in the gratuity scheme would receive a lump Mr BANNON (Rockdale) [12.27 a.m.]: sum of $7,692. It is slightly more compli I appreciate the detailed information that .cated to assess the comparative benefit from the Minister gave to the House in his the transport retirement fund due to the re second-reading speech. One might say that striction on the level of contribution within he has been assisted in the preparation of that scheme. However, a review of benefits its content by one who would be well and paid from that fund to date indicate an truly involved in the mathematics of the re alternative within that scheme between a tirement benefits fund. I, too, express my lump-sum benefit of $10,000 or a single appreciation, to Mr. F. Wishart, from the pension of $36.08 a fortnight or a married board, for his kindness in providing me with couple pension of $28.77 a fortnight, with certain explanations so that I could be sure $17.98 a fortnight for the widow. that the bill had the required effect. I propose to make only a few comments. It can be appreciated from the foregoing Basically, the Opposition supports the bill. that the pension benefits from the new fund I appreciate that only a few months ago the does, under these assumptions, provide a House agreed to retirement benefits legisla higher benefit. However, there will be cases tion. This was done expeditiously and we where the employee could be better off find now that it is necessary to amend im under his present retirement cover. This portant provisions of that legislation. Basic could arise from a combination of a number ally, the amendment affects those in the .of circumstances-his annual wage at age higher age group. It will mean that certain 60, his years of service for subsidy purposes, contributors to the fund who may have been his present financial circumstances and the under the impression originally that they amount he is willing to contribute for the would have an option for lump-sum or pen new fund. In some circumstances where the sion benefit will now be entitled only to a employee pays a minimal contribution and pension benefit and have no right to a lump has the benefit calculated basically on the sum . .employer portion of the benefit, the advan I am sure that many people who would tage, in some instances, will be to his present have preferred to take a lump-sum scheme. However, if he is willing to con benefit will be disappointed, but I have tribute to the fund, the advantage must go accepted, as the Minister indicated in his to the new scheme. second-reading speech, that the cost of such I must emphasize that the basic scheme provisions could amount to $60 million in has not been changed as a whole. In the a short time. Quite frankly, the failing in the preparation of the original measure was main the amendments relate to a quite small that an actuarial assessment could be so far minority of employees---8 per cent in the in error. I know that the provision of a pen Public Tr.ansport CommissiQn and 1{) per sion benefit only is going to reduce greatly ·cent in the State Dockyard-who in other the financial burden on the fund. At the -circumstances would not be given an option same time, it will make available to more to contribute to an age-60 contributory potential ocont:ributors the opportunity to :scheme. I foreshadow that :at a later stage join the fund and receive benefits that they I ·shaH move an amendment to clause 2. The are not now receiving or enable those who amendment does not alter the principles of are already members to receive improved the bill to which I have already referred, but benefits. In a sense, we are robbing Peter is necessary in order that those principles to pay Paul The change envisaged will save may be made mor~ :certain. In essence it money for the benefit .of contributors, but is proposed Ito move for the insertion of the it will deny ·some rights to certain con word "contributor" instead of the word '"per- tri!butOTs oT potential. oontrltmtors. Mr Maddison] New South Wales Retirement [11 APR., 1973] Benefits (Amendment) Bill 4897 At the time the principal Act was intro have discussion with representatives of em duced, I made the point that with this pro ployees interested in the bill. One thing I gressive introduction to the scheme of did learn was that next Monday the Minis groups of contributors, in the meantime ter is to meet representatives of the unions some who may have been able to join and to discuss details of the legislation. I should obtain better benefits could have passed have thought the Minister might have seen away and so have been denied those benefits. fit to discuss the bill with those people be Therefore, anything done to speed up the fore it came into the Parliament. Ministers introduction of groups of new contributors frequently discuss with interested parties is welcome. Quite frankly, it is in the in provisions that are to be included in a bill. terests of the Opposition and also of the However, I understand that the Minister has Government to get into the fund as many arranged to have a conference with inter persons as possible as quickly as possible. ested parties next Monday. The Minister has indicated that an ad From what we have been able to see in visory service is available to potential con our study of the measure, the Opposition tributors and to people who are already con believes it is satisfactory, with the qualifica tributing to one or other of the participating tion that it is a pity that the lump sum schemes. That . service can advise contribu benefit is to be withdrawn. The Opposition tors on their entitlements and benefits. I can will support the measure. only emphasize to contributors or potential Motion agreed to. contributors the importance of taking advan tage of that service. No one would be naive Bill read a second time. enough to say that determination of benefits IN COMMITIEE under a superannuation or retirement scheme is a simple matter. Employees in Clause 2 government departments could not be ex Page 4 pected to know what is the most advan ( 8) The amount payable to a person as .a tageous course to take. Those who are pension under subsection (7) fs tbe amount IS tbat, fn tbe opinion of tbe Board, fs tbe doubtful of their benefits and entitlements actuarial equivalent of tbe total benefit tbat should take advantage of the advisory ser would, but for a circumstance referred to in subsection (6) (a) or (6) (b), have been vice available. payable to him. The Minister indicated that consideration Mr MADDISON (Hornsby), Minister is to be given to the inclusion in the scheme of Justice [12.40 a.m.]: I move: of certain smaller superannuation schemes. This will be achieved in the course of time. That at page 4, line 13, the word "person" I like to think of myself as a tidy person be left out and there be inserted in lieu thereof and I am pleased to see the superannuation the word "contributor". scheme being made as tidy as possible. Over As I indicated at the second-reading stage, a period, for one reason or another, a num this amendment will clarify a possible doubt ber of superannuation schemes to suit special - that may arise by the use of the word person purposes have been developed. Where a instead of the use of the word contributor. superannuation or retirement scheme is actuarially sound and it comes into this Mr BANNON (Rockdale) [12.41 a.m.]: fund, an increase in the number of contribu The Minister may have noticed that in my tors will put the fund on a stronger basis. short contribution to the debate I endeav That can only assist in providing increased benefits to all members of the scheme. oured to use the word contributor. I do not think I used the word person once. I In the Minister's introductory speech he did that in order to foreshadow support for said that this bill did not materially alter the amendment. the original concept of the scheme, but that he had received representations from in Amendment agreed to. dividuals and unions in regard to the measure. Today I took the opportunity to Clause as amended agreed to. 307 4898 N.S.W. Retirement Bill [ASSEMBLY] Hurstville Municipality Bill ADOPTION OF REPORT SECOND READING Bill reported from Committee with an Mr MEAD (Hurstville) [11.3]: I move: amendment, and report adopted on motion That this bill be now read a second time. by Mr Maddison. The purpose of this bill is to enable the THIRD READING Council of the Municipality of Hurstville Bill read a third time, on motion by Mr to sell a small portion of land at Wolli .Maddison. Creek, Kingsgrove, to the owners of adja cent properties. The council holds title to (Mr Speaker left the chair at 12.42 a.m., Thursday.] the land under section 340A of the Local Government Act for the purpose of parks and recreation, but the council cannot dis pose of the land except by an Act of this Parliament. Having done so, the council Thursday, 12 April, 1973 must then apply the proceeds of the sale {Continuation of Wednesday's Sitting] for the purpose of parks and recreation within the municipality. This land is of The House resumed at 11 a.m. little, if any, use to the council. It can be put to good use by the purchasers for OATH OF ALLEGIANCE vehicle parking and loading space and this Mr SPEAKER reported that he had re will ease considerably congestion in Com ceived from His Excellency the Governor a mercial Road, Kingsgrove, to which both Commission under the public seal of the companies buying the land have small front State empowering James Hill Brown, ages. This is a busy and congested industrial Esquire, Chairman of Committees of the area. The total area of land involved is Legislative Assembly, in the absence of the small-29t perches, or 750 square metres Speaker, to administer from time to time as it will be called soon-and this is less as occasion may require to any member of than an average suburban housing lot. The the Legisla,tive Assembly to whom the same bill authorizes Hurstville council to sell for shall not have been previously administered a total of $6,500 the land which is the the oath or affirmation of allegiance to Her subject of the bill and is detailed in the Majesty the Queen. schedules of the bill in two portions. One part will be sold to Associated Steamships BILLS RETURNED Proprietary Limited for $5,335 and the other The following bills were returned from part will be sold to Girin Limited for the Legislative Council without amendment: $1, 165, free of all trusts affecting the land. Aborigines (Amendment) Bill The whole question of the sale and trans Housing and Public Works (Amendment) fer of this land was the subject of a thor Bill ough inquiry by a select committee of the New South Wales Retirement Benefits Legislative Council, where the bill origin (Amendment) Bill ated. Although the inquiry was extensive Parliamentary Electorates and Elections and exhaustive, the only real difficulty en (Amendment) Bill countered was the question of the sale price. MUNICIPALITY OF HURSTVILLE (WOLLI It would be extremely difficult to value CREEK, KINGSGROVE, PUBLIC RESERVE such an unusual piece of land, having as LAND SALE) BILL it does limited access and having no use SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS other than to the two parties to whom this Motion (by Mr Punch, by consent) bill authorizes its sale. The land had been agreed to: leased to Associated Steamships Proprietary That so much of the Standing Orders be Limited for several years and had never suspended as would preclude the consideration been used for park or recreation' purposes, forthwith of Order of the Day No. 2 of General Business on the Notice Paper for Today. and it is extremely unlikely that it would Hurstville Municipality Bill [12 APR., 1973] Private Irrigation Bill 4899 ever be. When Associated Steamships Pro PRIVATE IRRIGATION DISTRICTS AND prietary Limited approached Hurstville WATER (AMENDMENT) BILL council originally with an offer to buy the IN COMMITTEE land the council directed that the company Consideration of Legislative Council's obtain three or four independent valuations. amendments. These varied from about $4,000 to as high as $12,000. As the council could not deter No. I.-Page 41, clause 48, line 25, After "water", insert "or a charge for the mine from these figures the true value, it quantity of water". sought an official value from the Valuer No. 2.-Page 43, clause 49, line 16. After General's Department. This was the sum "irrigation", insert "or in respect of the of $6,500, which all parties to the trans quantities of water determined for action have accepted and agreed upon. I domestic and stock purposes". commend the bill. No. 3.-Page 43, clause 50, line 26. After "Part VII", insert "or in re8pect of the Mr F. J. WALKER (Georges River) quantity of water determined by the Board [11.5]: The Opposition does not oppose for domestic and stock purposes". this measure. I have been in touch with the No. 4.-Page 49, clause 60, line 10. After "district", insert "and if applicable particu Hurstville municipal council, part of that lars of the quantity of water last deter municipality being in my electorate, part in mined by the Board for domestic and stock the electorate of the honourable member for purposes in respect of each such holding". Kogarah and part in the Hurstville elec Mr FREUDENSTEIN (Young), Minister torate. If I might say so, it is a magnificent for Conservation and Minister for Cultural council, probably the best in the Sydney Activities [11.12]: I move: metropolitan area. As members of the House well know, I am not the sort of That the Committee agree to the Legislative person who is inclined to support the aliena Council's amendments in this bill. tion of parklands unless there is good The honourable member for Sturt, the reason for it, nor is the Hurstville council honourable member for Murray and the so inclined. However, this is a small area Ron. L. P. Connellan sought my assis of 750 square metres which is quite un tance on behalf of the West Corurgan suitable for parkland. Under section 340A irrigation league to have amendments of the Local Government Act it cannot be incorporated in the measure. For the sold except by an Act of Parliament. In information of honourable members I my opinion and in ·that of the council and should explain that these amendments re of everyone in the municipality, it is not late only to charges or rates for stock and a suitable area for use as a park or recrea domestic purposes and have nothing tion area but is quite suitable for the pur to do with charges for water supplied for pose for which it is to be sold. Valuations irrigation. The provisions originally included have been obtained and there is no sug in the bill were along the lines of a similar gestion that the amount for which it is to provision in the Water Act as they relate to be sold is not a proper amount. In those irrigation districts such as Berriquin where circumstances the Opposition supports the the works were constructed by the Water bill. Conservation and Irrigation Commission on behalf of the Government. In these cases, Motion agreed to. water supplied for irrigation purposes is Bill read a second time. rated on a holding area basis so that there could be slight variations in the quantity COMMITI'EB AND ADOPTION OF REPORT of water supplied according to the size of Bill reported from Committee without the holding. However, in a private irriga amendment, and report adopted on motion tion district it could well be that the same by Mr Mead. quantity of water supplied for stock and domestic purposes is supplied irrespective of TIIIRD READING whether the holding is 100 acres or 1,000 Bill read a third time, on motion by acres. In these circumstances it is prefer Mr Mead. able that the boards of management to be 4900 Private Irrigation Bill [ASSEMBLY] Cruelty to Animals Bill constituted under this measure be provided the Deputy Leader of the Opposition with alternative methods of charging for pointed out the necessity to include the water for stock and domestic purposes: first, words "prima facie" in this provision and on an area of holding basis, and second on a in another place the initiative was taken by quantity of water basis. As I said, these the Leader of the Opposition to propose amendments have been sought by the West this amendment. That it was accepted by Corurgan irrigation league and they have the Government is most pleasing to the the approval of the Government. Opposition. We welcome the amendment. Mr NOIT (BuHendong) [11.15]: The Motion agreed to. Opposition has no objection 'to the amend ments inserted into this bill in another Legislative Council's amendment agreed place. In my second-reading speech I stated to. that the Opposition had not had sufficient ADOPTION OF REPORT time to examine the bill in detail and we Resolution reported, and report adopted would propose the insertion of amendments on motion by Mr Griffith. in another place. As the Minister has said, it is desirable for the rates charged for the quantity of water availa:b}e for domestic PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO and stock purposes to be increased as ANIMALS (AMENDMENT) BILL distinct f.r.om thos•e for water ·released on an acreage basis. The Opposition has no objec IN COMMITTEE tion to the amendments and indeed fully Consideration of Legislative Council's supports them. amendments. Motion agreed to. Schedule of the Amendments referred to in Legislative Council's Message of 4 April, Legislative Council's amendments agreed 1973. to, No. I.-Page 5, clause 3, line 23, After "Any" ADOPTION OF REPORT insert "prescribed". Resolution reported, and report adopted No. 2.-Page 6, clause 3, line 1. Insert the on motion by Mr Freudenstein. following:- ( 3) A reference in subsection ( 2) to a prescribed person is a reference to- (a) a medical officer of health or an PRINTING AND NEWSPAPERS BILL assistant medical officer of health IN COMMITTEE appointed under the Public Health Act, 1902; or Consideration of Legislative Council's (b) a veterinary inspector appointed amendment. under the Pastures Protection Act, Schedule of the Amendment referred to in 1934. Legislative Council's Message of 29 March, 1973. Mr GRIFFITH (Cronulla), Chief Secre Page 6, clause 5, line 2. After "as", insert tary and Minister for Sport [ 11.20]: I move: "prima facie". That the Committee agree to the Legislative Council's amendments in this bill. Mr GRIFFITH (CI'onulla), Chief Secre tary and Minister for Sport [11.17]: I move: The amendments, to my way of thinking, only increase the verbiage in the bill. I That the Committee agree to the Legislative Council's amendment in this bill. pointed out in my second-reading speech that the holder of an authority to enter cer The amendment seems· to be an unimport tain premises had to fulfil certain require ant one and the Government is willing ments and although they were not specifi to accept it. cally spelt out, they referred to a medical Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [11.18]: officer or a veterinary surgeon. I pointed The Opposition has no objection to this out when the bill was under discussion that amendment. At the second-reading stage they were the type of people who would be Cruelty to Animals Bill [12 APR., 1973] Retirement of Serjeant~at~Arms 4901 authorized persons. It would seem that un vations might appropriately be initiated necessary words are being pedantically from the Chair. The Premier and Treasurer added to an Act of Parliament which make has asked me to indicate that he associates no difference to its original intent. There himself with all these remarks. The Premier fore, the Government has no objection to is away in the country and the Leader of the proposed amendments. the House is at an important meeting. Both are, therefore, unable to be present on this Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [11.22]: occasion. During the recess and before the During my second-reading speech I ex House assembles, the Serjeant-at-Arms, Mr pressed some concern about the rights of Mahony, will retire from the service of officers to enter premises for the purpose of Parliament. making inspections when experiments are being carried out on animals, for instance, Mr Mahony commenced his service with on behalf of a university. However, I the Legislative Assembly during the depres accepted the Minister's assurance that the sion days of 1932, forty-one years ago, when bill referred to officers of the Department of he was first appointed to the parliamentary Agriculture who were fully qualified, and messenger staff. He joined the staff with a that it did not refer to officials of the Royal family background of keen appreciation of Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals our democratic parliamentary system, for who, although they are worthy people, his father, then a member of the Legislative should not have the power to make a de Council, had been a foundation member of cision whether an operation of this type the Labor Party when it was formed in 1890 should be performed. and at the time of his death was the last of those original members. Coming from It would seem that although I accepted these family antecedents, it was only natural the Minister's assurance, members in an to expect that Mr Mahony would have a other place are not prepared to do so, and high regard for the parliamentary institution they want these provisions specifically spelt -a respect and regard that he has main out in the bill. I do not think that is pedan· tained to this day. tic. I do not often pay a tribute to members in another place. Many of their amend~ Always anxious to improve himself, while ments merely alter a date in a bill, Mr Mahony was still on the messenger for instance, from 1972 to 1973. Members staff he studied at the Sydney Technical Col of the Legislative Council may make many lege and in 1954 gained a health inspector's of these inconsequential amendments and certificate, winning the Purdy medal for the then announce proudly that they have best student. His life and interest continued amended perhaps forty bills. However, on to revolve round the Legislative Assembly, this occasion, the amendments are welcome and in 1945 he had been promoted to the and the Opposition supports them. Assembly office staff, where he filled several Motion agreed to. positions, including Clerk of Printed Papers and Clerk of Bills. When he was First Clerk Legislative Council's amendments agreed in 1956 he was appointed Serjeant-at-Arms. to. For a short period he was also Assistant ADOPTION OF REPORT House Secretary, but was obliged to resign Resolution reported, and report adopted this position because of his other official on motion by Mr Griffith. duties. Of course, it is in the position of Serjeant at-Arms that Mr Mahony is best known to RETIREMENT OF FREDERICK all honourable members, to the press and AUGUSTINE MAHONY, SERJEANT-AT to many members of the public. While hold ARMS AND CLERK OF SELECT ing this position for seventeen years he has COMMITTEES carried out the responsibilities of the office Mr SPEAKER: Order! Before calling on the of Serjeant-at-Arms with dedication and next item of business, with the consent and devotion to duty engendered by his appreci approval of the whole House, certain obser· ation of the institution of Parliament. He 308~ 4902 Retirement of F. A. [ASSEMBLY] Mahony, Serjeant-at-Arms has unceasingly performed his duties with behalf of the Government, and to join with the greatest of courtesy and attention, you, Mr Speaker, in wishing him and his especially for the three Speakers, including wife a very happy retirement. myself, whom he has served in this cap acity. Also, he has given like attention and Mr HILLS (Phillip), Leader of the Op courtesy to all honourable members. position i[l1.29]: Mr Speaker, may I join with you and the Deputy Premier in wish Over this long and eventful period of ing Mr Fred Mahony a happy retirement. seventeen years as Serjeant-at-Arms, Mr You have already referred to Mr Mahony's Mahony has seen and served a succession of early days in the Parliament, and I am sure members who have passed through the Par that we all remember that they were trouble liament. All of them, both past and present, some days. Indeed, when Mr Mahony ob have received equal service and respect from tained his first job here he had been out of him. I was tempted to say "equal treat work for about two years. He came here ment", but of course not all of us have had and was placed on the staff as a messenger, the salutary experience of being escorted but because the Supply Bill had not been from the Chamber-out on to the bitumen, passed, it was three months before he re as one honourable member colourfully de ceived any pay. scribed it-in the tender custody of the Serjeant-at-Arms. While he has been Ser Those were troublesome days. It is jeant, Mr Mahony has been closely associ understandable that an experience like that ated with collating the displays exhibited would always be emblazoned on his mind. on open days. These displays have always Fred Mahony has had interesting experi been of great interest to him and, through ences in the Parliament. I am one of those his enthusiasm and voluntary efforts, this who have been escorted by him from the interest has been communicated to honour Chamber at Mr Speaker's direction. I re able members and to many members of the call another occasion when Mr Evatt was public. asked to leave the Chamber by the Speaker. Mr Evatt was very difficult. He stood at Mr Mahony now leaves the service of the back benches and Mr Mahony stood on Parliament with the respect of all honour the floor attempting to remove him. The able members, and I express to him my outcome was that the Speaker had to ad warm and grateful thanks for his loyal ser journ the House so that Mr Mahony could vice to the institution of Parliament, and be given some assistance by officers of the to myself during the past eight years. I ex law. tend to him my very best_ wishes for a long and contented retirement in the comfort It is a delight to have in this Parliament and security of his wife and his family, people of the character and integrity of freed from the pressures and tensions that Mr Fred Mahony. It makes the job much he has survived in this institution during the easier for us, irrespective of the side of past forty-one years. parliament on which we serve. As I said, I have had the pleasure of being escorted Sir CHARLES CUTLER (Orange), by him from the Chamber. As you said, Deputy Premier, Minister for Local Govern Mr Speaker, he has a great tradition be ment and Minister for Highways [11.28]: hind him. His father Bob served a long I should like to associate members of the time in the Labor movement, being a mem Government with the expressions of view ber of the Legislative Council for forty just put to the House in relation to Mr Fred years and holding the position of Whip in Mahony. It has been my great pleasure and that Chamber for thirty years. Bob Mahony, privilege to serve in this Assembly for the an old Balmainite, had associations with past twenty-six years, during which time the Balmain rugby league team. The big Mr Mahony has always been an officer of gest block of housing commission flats in the Parliament. He has always shown mem Balmain was named after Robert Mahony, bers on both sides great courtesy, and he Fred's father. With that tradition and back has served the Parliament very well indeed. ground, it is no wonder that Fred Mahony I am happy to pay a high tribute to him on has been able to serve this Chamber with Retirement of F. A. [12 APR., 1973] Mahony, Serjeant-at-Arms 4903 such graciousness and efficiency, not only I learned that ·a friendly smile and a to members of the Parliament, but also to little advice when one did not know what the people who come to visit the place. to do or where to go, proffered on these There have been many open days in his occasions, is of tremendous value-advice time here. My colleagues and I join you, that the rule that one should be outside the Mr Speaker, and the Deputy Premier in precincts of the House within ten minutes wishing Fred Mahony and his wife a happy was a little flexible but that it must not be retirement. We sincerely hope that from overdone, given with a friendly smile, good time to time he will come back and say wishes ·and a "see you tomorrow". It cer hello. to us and give us the benefit of his tainly helped me. There is something more friendship. important on an occasion like this. I, too, femember the occasion to which the Leader Mr CRABTREE (Kogarah) [11.33]: I of the Opposition has referred when the deem it a privilege to join you, Mr Speaker, Serjeant-at-Arms was called upon to do his the Deputy Premier and the Leader of the duty on that memorable night and the Opposition in paying tribute to Mr Fred House eventually adjourned until the ring Mahony, the Serjeant-at-Arms, who has ing of one long bell. That one of Mr been a most capable, efficient and loyal Mahony's stature could accompany from the officer. That is one of the reasons why he Chamber much la>rger men, including-if I selected the electorate of Kogarah to live may be forgiven for saying so-the honour in. I too have been escorted from the Cham able member for Cessnock, and that men ber by the Serjeant-at-Arms, but it was some do leave the Chamber in those circum consolation to have the protection of such stances typifies not only the friendliness of a man when going out of this House in a the Serjeant-at-Arms ·but also the long tradi hostile atmosphere. Although Mr Mahony tion, influence and power of this democratic has been responsible for carrying out Mr Chamber and the parliamentary institution. Speaker's wishes in the interests of main taining decorum in the House, he is one One recalls that the sword wherewith of the most popular members of the staff the Serjeant~at-Arms is clad on ceremonial here. He is renowned for his great friend occasions signifies the fact that he can, in ship to all members, and his impartiality case of need, walk down the centre of the in performing his duties has endeared him Chamber, holding the sword, and keeping at to all, Ministers and backbenchers alike. I sword's length those who might otherwise be join with you, Mr Speaker, in wishing him at war~and that the battle here is one of every pleasure in a happy retirement1 May words, not arms. For seventeen years Mr he have many years of prosperity in the Mahony has occupied this important posi Kogarah electorate. tion. In all that time he has enjoyed not merely the respect but indeed the affection Mr McCAW (Lane Cove), Attorney of every honourable member who has come General [11.34]: I join you, Mr Speaker, to know him. the Deputy Premier, the Leader of the Opposition, the honourable member for Three-quarters of a century ago Joseph Kogarah and others who will speak on this Chamberlain, upon his election as Lord occasion of mixed sadness and happiness. Rector of a Scottish university and in re I have been in this old place for twenty sponse in a long speech on patriotism, ob six years of the forty-two years that Fred served that a vague attachment to the whole Mahony has been associated with the parlia human race is a poor substitute for the per mentary institution, and twice during his formance of our specific duties. Professions term as Serjeant-at-Arms I have had the of universal philanthropy do not excuse privilege of being escorted from the Cham neglect of those duties. Merely to comply ber by him-once when Mr Speaker Lamb with ·the law and to pay our taxes is not occupied the chair and the other time when enough. The Commissioner of Police will Mr Deputy-Speaker Booth, the father of take care of the one and the Commissioner the honourable member for Wallsend. of Taxation will insist on the other. It is occupied it. the bit extra not compelled by law which 4904 Retirement of F. A. [ASSEMBLY] Mahony, Serjeant-at-Arms we do voluntarily for the community in Assembly may direct be brought here. For which we live which distinguishes the true tunately for the reputation of this House, citizen from the mere householder. Fred the conduct of honourable members has Mahony during his time of service to this been such that the Serjeant-at-Arms has Parliament, has done that bit extra, given not had to exercise force in removing any the right hand of friendship and offered the member. The incident recalled by the smile of encouragement. I am deeply grate Leader of the Opposition is vivid in my ful for the warmth of those qualities in him memory. It involved an honourable gentle and I want to rthank him. I join with those man of large physical proportions and the who have already spoken in extending warm Serjeant-at-Arms being of a build similar good wishes to Fred Mahony for a long, to my own, my sympathies were with him happy, healthy, active, useful period of re on that occasion. tirement, enjoying himself and doing the things he wants to do as distinct from those Apart from evincing always the greatest things that in the years gone by duty or possible friendship towards honourable conscience have compelled him to do. members, Mr Mahony has been courteous and kindly in dealing with requests made Mr SHEAHAN (Burrinjuck) [11.40]: to him for any privileges honourable mem As a small boy it was my privilege to sit bers may choose to exercise. Therefore I in the public gallery of Parliament and see have pleasure in joining with you, Mr a Serjeant-at-Arms, with the help of the Speaker, in wishing him a happy retirement. police, escort from the Chamber six mem He leaves with the same reputation that bers of the Opposition of that day. At that was enjoyed by his father who served in early age I realized the tremendous powers another place for more than forty years. possessed by a Serjeant-at-Arms under our Mr Mahony came into this House steeped system of parliamentary government. When in the traditions of parliamentary law and I was elected to Parliament I viewed the parliamentary life, and that has been re Serjeant-at-Arms with great awe and with sponsible for the respect that he com some fear, as one who might have to re manded, not demanded, in his position as move me from the Chamber, for I came Serjeant-at-Arms. I wish him well. to the House with a reputation for being truculent and somewhat objectionable in be Mr NEILLY (Cessnock) [11.44]: For haviour. Fortunately, the four preceding reasons other than those given by the Serjeants-at-Arms and Mr Fred Mahony did Attorney-General, the Serjeant-at-Arms has not have occasion to remove me. In fact, I accompanied me on many occasions. was never removed by direction of the Mr MuwcK: Or did you accompany Speaker, although I withdrew voluntarily on one occasion, which brought forth a phrase him? that will live forever in records of the pro Mr NEILLY: I do not know who went ceedings of this House. first. That is not important: what counts is whether a man is a man. I came into When Mr Mahony was appointed to the Parliament after having served a period office of Serjeant-at-Arms I knew that he in industrial and political life with Mr would use charm and efficiency rather than Mahony's father, who was a Whip in the force to remove members who breached the Legislative Council, and also was president rules of the House. Apart from his position of the Trades and Labor Council of New in this Chamber, Mr Mahony acted also as South Wales during the Peter Boland strike. secretary of a number of select committees, Bob Mahony gave me a lot of advice and and in the performance of that ,task dis information. played efficiency, combined with the great est possible degree of friendship towards I remember tossing up with my old friend the members involved. I am reminded that Albert Sloss about who was removed the the Serjeant-at-Arms has the legal power most under both Liberal-Country party and to issue warrants to bring before the bar Labor governments. Those things are what of the House those whom the Legislative we are. I suppose I am sorry for what I Retirement of F. A. [12 APR., 1973] Mahony, Serjeant-at-Arms 4905 am. A man is leaving this Parliament. I do what is wrong with the service from Carl not know a more respected man than Fred ton. Often they have been complimentary of Mahony. There is nothing more one can say the Department of Railways. One of the of any one than, there walked a man. He great attributes of the Serjeant-at-Arms has has looked after the schoolchildren who been his love of girls and boys. That is a have visited this Parliament and has organ great credit to any man. I say a sincere ized the breaks for the Speaker. He is the thank you to him. I wish Mr and Mrs fellow you go to and ask silly questions. I Mahony and their family a long, happy and pay tribute to the Mahony family. On the peaceful retirement. eve of Fred's retirement, I say to members of the Parliament: there walked a man. Mr R. J. KELLY (East Hills) [11.50]: On occasions such as this it is difficult to Mr MORRIS (Maitland), Minister for say anything other than to support what Transport [11.47]: I have never enjoyed the has already been said. Possibly Mr Mahony sublime experience of being escorted from has been more of a friend to me than any the House. There may have been one or one else in the House. two occasions when I should have suffered that fate. I speak on behalf of my con Mr HILLS: Surely not. stituency. Probably no member asks for Mr R. J. KELLY: It is true and I will access to the galleries of this Chamber on not back down on that statement. Nobody behalf of more schoolchildren in a year knows how many quiet talks I have had than I do. with him and the support that I have re Mr NEILLY: That is probably the reason ceived from him, and this is an appro why the Minister gets so many questions. priate occasion on which to say so. I con gratulate him because he was one of those Mr MORRIS: Mr Mahony has made who started in this House in a humble every effort to accommodate young people capacity. He was one of the lower deck so that they can enjoy their day in Sydney. staff who was able to work his way towards Sometimes forty or :fifty young people are the top. It is a wonder that the place did present. It has been an onerous responsi not collapse when .a member of the attend bility to fit the young people into the gal ants' staff became Serjeant-at-Arms in this leries and I have appreciated that very Chamber. The very fact that he has much. He has always been helpful in open acquitted himself so well is a great testi ing the Parliament, of which he is so proud, mony to him and to the humble workers in to young people. On their behalf as well as this Parliament who rarely get a break. for myself, I say thank you to him for the work he has done in this regard. I thank the I was disappointed when a previous Serjeant-at-Arms for going so much out of Speaker did not promote him to the table his way to make these visits possible. There of the House because I felt that it would has been posing on the steps of the Parlia have been a tribute to his capacity as ment for photographs with schoolchildren: Serjeant-at-Arms. To be the first attendant all manner of acting skills have been re to achieve this status is no mean quired-and he has shown considerable achievement. I do not take any credit from prowess in them-along with the local the officers at the table when I say that member, of course. I am pleased to record that an opportunity was extended to an attendant. Even if an I should like to mention the open days attendant has ability and is capable of per of Parliament. I know of the keen interest forming work in a higher echelon in this taken by the Serjeant-at-Arms in the dis Parliament, rarely does he get the oppor play of pictures, records, historic photo tunity to do so. I regret that Mr Mahony graphs and other old papers that are put did not rise to even higher office. I hope on show with great pride by him. I compli that the example he has set will inspire ment him on that. He is a keen train travel ler and as Minister for Transport I thank other Speakers to afford better promotional him for the little pointers he has given to opportunities to those lower down on the me. Rarely have those pointers concerned employment scale of the Parliament. 4906 Retirement of F. A. [ASSEMBLY] Mahony, Serjeant-at-Arms Mr Mahony has in his office a great col at-Arms must live up to his past. All hon lection of relics of this Parliament, as well ourable members who over many years as political documents and an assortment have been associated with Fred Mahony of advertisements. I do not know what he have long learned to respect him not only intends to do with them. That will be a for his approach to the institution of Parlia mattter for him but it would be a shame ment but also for the manner in which he if they were lost to posterity as they are has filled the important office of Serjeant of great historical value. It is good to be at-Arms. I am sure we all think this way, reminded by photographs of people who though at times some of us may have been played a significant part in the efficient unwillingly associated with him in his functioning of this Parliament and the de official capacity within the Chamber. velopment of the nation. I hope that this valuable collection will be preserved for all I remember meeting Mr Mahony when I time so that politicians who come into the first came to this establishment. He was House in the future will benefit from Mr then an attendant, occupying a small cubicle Mahony's diligence in maintaining it. I on the steps overlooking the parking area join with other honourable members in in proximity to the Country Party qu!l!rters. wishing him well in his retirement. I hope In ·those days the ·amanuenses were located that he lives long enough to be an em on the upstairs floors of the parliamentary barrassment to the State superannuation buildings. During his early years at Parlia fund and that during that time he and his ment Mr Mahony applied himself to study wife enjoy the best of health. I express and fitted himself for promotion to the status my sincere thanks for the service that he of an officer of the Legislative Assembly. rendered to me. The years of service given to the Legislative Assembly by Fred Mahony and by his Mr D. B. HUNTER (Ashfield) [11.54]: father Bob Mahony to the Legislative Coun I wish to join with other honourable mem cil total almost eighty-two years. I join bers who have spoken in appreciation of with other honourable members in paying Mr Mahony's service to the parliamentary a tribute to Mr Mahony. In particular I institution. His endeavours on behalf of the thank him for the courtesy and attention he Parliament, which is of such importance always gave to anyone who displayed an in to the people of this State, have been second terest in the working of the Legislature. to none. When I first entered Parliament Having always sat close to Mr Mahony in as an inexperienced politician he was a this Chamber, out of respect to him at the Chamber messenger and I had the privilege adjournment today I shall deem it a privilege of learning from him not only matters of to have him escort me out of the House for procedure but also the things that make the last tim~ithout direction from the up the atmosphere that surrounds this in Chair. stitution. I join with other honourable members who have spoken in wishing him Mr COADY (Drummoyne) [11.58]: I well. The contribution he has made as join with you, Mr Speaker, and previous Serjeant-at-Arms has been in keeping with speakers in this tribute to our popular the long line of great men who have filled Serjeant-at-Arms, Fred Mahony, on his that office. pending retirement. The many fine compli ments paid this morning in respect of his Mr CHAFFEY (Tamworth) [11.55]: service leave little for me to say. Neverthe· The Serjeant-at-Arms in the Legislative less I should like to remind him that I am Assembly is in a somewhat invidious posi a member who in almost twenty years has tion in that he has no right of reply to not had the pleasure, or perhaps displeasure, dispute ·anything said about him by honour of being officially escorted from the Cham able members with which he does not agree. ber by him. Maybe I have been too smart He is moving forward into the future with or perhaps I have wanted to stay here to a big challenge confronting him. It is not be counted when divisions were called for. all too difficult for a person to live down Had the occasion arisen for me to be his past, but in this instance the Serjeant- ordered f·rom the Chamber no nicer person Retirement of F. A. [12 APR., 1973] Mahony, Serjeant-at-Arms 4907 could be found for an escort than Fred Fred and his wife and family good health Mahony. His retirement will mean the end and all God's blessings for a long and happy of an era-what I like to call the Mahony retirement. era. All honourable members are aware that Fred Mahony had had forty-two years ser Mr BROWN (Raleigh) [12.2]: Today vice in this establishment and that his father honourable members pay tribute to a man gave long service as a member of the Legis who, in his capacity as Serjeant-at-Arms of lative Council. It was my great pleasure to this Parliament, carried out his duties with know the Mahony family long before I was great distinction and credit not only in this elected to Parliament. In the Balmain dis Chamber but also in every activity outside trict the family is virtually an institution. the Chamber connected with his office. Fred As 'a visitor to Bob Mahony's home I can Mahony has a great record. He must have subscribe to the esteem in which the family some wonderful scrapbooks because every has been held. It was my privilege to be so often he asked for a photograph or news present at the opening of the big Housing paper cutting to add to his collection. Fred Commission project at Balmain, known as Mahony holds the position in this Parliament Robert Mahony Court, which com of Serjeant-at-Arms and Clerk of Select memorates a worthy citizen of New South Committees. I wish •to pay a tribute to Mr Wales. Mahony for the work he performed as the secretary of •a particular select committee I know of the long and historic associa which I had the honour of chairing on tion that Fred Mahony's family has had behalf of ·this Parliament. with Balmain. When one speaks of Balmain, one is talking about one of the great, old During the period that the select commit districts of Sydney. We are all indebted to tee inquired into the timber industry, . due Fred Mahony, particularly in our early days to breaks for holidays or for some other when we first became members of this reason, two secretaries assisted the commit House, for the many kindnesses he extended tee. In his capacity as secretary of that sel to us without discrimination-as indeed he ect committee Fred Mahony displayed the still does. Honourable members have spoken efficiency which he has shown in this House. about the way he has helped in the manage Frankly, when I was appointed chairman of ment of the affairs of this House. Only last that select committee few of we members night we saw how, in his final days here, he knew much about the work of such a handled in his usual skilful manner, the committee. demonstration in the public gallery. As Mr CRABTREE: It had a lot of deadwood usual, with Fred Mahony's good judgment, on it. everything went well. This is a sad occasion for Fred Mahony after his long association Mr BROWN: There is plenty of dead with this House. It is a sad occasion for us wood on the Opposition benches. In those all because we will miss him very much. days Fred Mahony displayed his great knowledge of the work of select commit I do not know how many conferences I tees. He was a tremendous asset to us by have had with Fred Mahony over the years. indicating the correct procedures to be I learnt more from him than from many of adopted. I wish to pay Fred Mahony a my own colleagues-and certainly from honourable members opposite-because of tribute for the work he carried out in that his knowledge of this institution, its per capacity. I also wish to pay a tribute to sonalities and their good points and their Fred Mahony with whom I have been in bad points. To Fred we say, "Well done, constant contact because of my position as good and faithful servant to all of us". We Chairman of Committees of the Parliament. thank Fred Mahony for the splendid co Fred Mahony was always there to see that operation and courtesy that he has always I was ready to go· into Committee. He would extended to us. I join honourable members usually say, "I have checked, I do not think in extending Ito Fred and Mrs Mahony they will be long." Sometimes perhaps he every good wish for his retirement. I wish miscalculated and brought me down to be 4908 Retirement of Serjeant-at-Arms [ASSEMBLY] Special Adjournment available a few minutes earlier than I should tended to me and to my constituents. I hope have been there, but he always apologized that I have as many schools here in future for it. as I have had in the past. On one occasion when Fred and Marie Mr CLOUGH (Eastwood) [12.7]: Mr Mahony were passing through Kempsey I Speaker, I wish to join you, the Deputy had the privilege of entertaining them in Premier, the Leader of the Opposition and my home and it was a delight to meet the all the previous speakers in paying my members of his family. On behalf of all tribute to the retiring Serjeant-at-Arms. Dur honourable members who have been con ing my time here I have found him a nected with select committees that have had pleasant, f·riendly and helpful person, who the assistance of Fred Mahony as secretary, has extended to me personally many I say, "Thank you for a job well done." I courtesies, of which I am most appreciative. ·Congratulate Fred Mahony on the outstand At all times he has gone out of his way to ing manner in which he has served this Par assist me in any matt.er on which I needed liament as Serjeant-at-Arms and Clerk of assistance, and I want him to know on the Select Committees, and extend to him and eve of his retirement that I have been very his family sincere wishes for their good grateful for his assistance. I wish him and health in the years ahead. Finally, I say to his wife and family a happy retirement, and Fred, "I hope the Tigers .f!et up in the com I hope that we shall have the pleasure of ing season." seeing him about this place from time to time in future. Mr DARBY (Manly) [12.5]: There is a kind fe11ow called Fred, Mr SPEAKER: Thank you, gentlemen. About whom many nice things are said, I want to contribute my own little tribute, May he have many good years ahead! PRINTING COMMITIEE NINETEENTH REPORT Mr N. D. WALKER (Miranda) [12.6]: I should like to add my tributes to those Mr BREWER, as Chairman, brought up already expr·essed to Mr Mahony. I have the Nineteenth Report from the Printing known him for only a comparatively short Committee. period, but my predecessor, Mr Tom Dalton, came to me when I first became a SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT member of this House and said: "I have been driving Mr Mahony home of an even Mr PUNCH (Gloucester), Minister for Public Works [12.8]: I move: ing. Will you continue?" I have done this, and I have formed a clos·e association with That, unless otherwise ordered, this House at its rising this day do adjourn until Tuesday, Fred Mahony. At three o'clock in the morn 12th June, 1973, at half-past two o'clock p.m. ing, when a man is really relaxed, one gets In moving this motion I wish to inform to know him. As a result, I can assure all honourable members that it is not proposed honoura:ble members that no man employed that the House shall meet on 12th June here has a greater respect than Fred Mahony but, in accordance with the usual practice, for this institution. it is proposed before then to prorogue Par liament with a view to a new session being I thank Mr Mahony for his faith and opened by His Excellency the Governor confidence in me, especially on the many later in the year. I commend the motion occasions when we have made the trip to the House. home in all sorts of conditions. Of course, Mr MULOCK (Nepean) [12.9]: I wish I refer to the elements. I am going to miss to take this opportunity to raise a ma:tter Fred Mahony of an evening, but I take this that is of a great deal of concern. I refer opportunity of wishing him and his family to the situation existing in the :broiler grow all the very best for the future. I thank him ing industry of New South Wales. In this sincerely for all the courtesies he has ex- industry the growers contract to grow a Special Adjournment [12 APR., 1973] Special Adjournment 4909 batch of chickens supplied by the integrator. the increasing production costs of broiler The grower provides heat and water for the growers. Some integrators varied the method chickens, while the integrator owns the of payment in 1971. While in theory this chickens and provides feed to be paid for produced an increased return, in practice at the conclusion of the batch, and medica the annual returns of growers remained the tion, which is charged for either at the same. time of delivery or at the conclusion of the batch. After the matter had been referred to the poultry advisory board by the Minister, Mr The integrator decides which feed and Carroll of Hungerford, Spooner and Kirk medication are to be used, and he also de hope presided over discussions between cides when he will pick up the chickens. growers and representatives of integrators When the chickens are picked up, the in their deliberations to obtain agreement on grower has no control over the procedures certain principles of the cost structure of adopted for the weighing of his chickens. growers. After three meetings of the While I do not ·reflect on the integrators in broiler industry committee Mr Carroll sub that respect, I point out that this is one of mitted his report. Notwithstanding this in the matters that are causing grave concern dependent outside appreciation of the posi to the broiler growing industry. Primarily tion, which flowed from the Minister's inter the problem facing the industry is the price vention, the submissions of the growers are selling procedure. still being rejected. That report justified the approach by the growers to the integra The Minister is to be congratulated on tors. his part in providing a form of machinery whereby mutual agreement might be reached Since negotiations began in 1968 there between the broiler growers association and has generally been no meeting of the condi the integrators. Following a survey by the tions tendered to the growers by integra Department of Agriculture in 1969, the tors. In fact, there has been little overall Minister hoped to introduce a method by improvement in gross annual return to which proper balance and equity could be growers since 1966. Some integrators have provided between growers and integrators. continually changed contract conditions be Let me read to the House an extract from tween themselves and the growers. This has the January issue of the New South Wales been designed to pressure growers into per Broiler Grower: forming more for less. There has been harassment of individual growers. It is Since the introduction of the agreed averag ing scheme, serious and disturbing aspects akin to a system of bondage. The broiler concerning broiler farmers' returns have be growers association has indicated that the come evident due to the way monthly pools integrators have generally said they will not have been managed. agree to the recommendations of Mt Growers have high individual production Carroll. costs to obtain the average of 10.75 cents a bird, and as soon as they are removed The position I put to the House and the from the pool the price for the month Minister is that Government intervention is naturally lowered. Thus, returns to is absolutely necessary to bring about a growers as a group are lowered. Individual proper equity between those carrying out growers who are left out of the pool are the basic elements of production in the paid only the pool price. In November, broiler-growing industry and the integrators. 1972, a submission for increased price was Pressure has been put on the broiler growers made to the integrators. The consumer price by intrusion by some integrators into the index shows a continuing upward trend. actual broiler growing itself, and the indus The growing fee of 10.75 cents a bird was try has been threatened in some respects by the monopoly aspects of it. Nevertheless, I agreed to in December, 1969. To cover am sure the Minister will agree that the inflationary trends, it should now be 12.79 growers have at all times been willing to cents a bird. The lower fee does not take negotiate with integrators in order to get a into account any increment increase to cover reasonable return for themselves. These 309 4910 Special Adjournment [ASSEMBLY] Adjournment negotiations have taken place over eight in August, to make these comments. A years. I hope the Minister will announce heavy burden will be on the shoulders of some government intervention to bring the commissioners to ensure that the right about a proper balance in this important in thing is done. It is up to the Government dustry. to ensure that the commissioners are per sons of integrity and impartiality. We know Mr HILLS (Phillip), Leader of the that once the decision has been made by Opposition [12.15]: The motion before the them no further reference on boundaries House is for the special adjournment for will be made to this Parliament. The Oppo the Easter recess. I want to say on behalf sition trusts that the commissioners will deal of the Opposition that it is appropriate that with this question on a completely non the House should rise as we have been political and non-partisan basis. sitting for some time without the normal break. This is a time when we need to Motion agreed to. reflect on the way the business of the House has been conducted in recent weeks. My colleagues and I are concerned at the ADJOURNMENT way the Parliamentary Electorates and Elec APPRENTICE BRICKLAYERS tions (Amendment) Bill was pushed-in Mr PUNCH (Gloucester), Minister for deed bulldozed-through this and the other Public Works [12.19]: I move: Chamber. We had the report this morning That this House do now adjourn. that the legislation had been agreed to in another place. This means the third re Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [12.19}: distribution for three elections since the I want to raise a matter of concern to me Government has been in office, compared and twenty-eight first-year bricklaying with four redistributions in twenty-four apprentices in ·the Sydney metropolitan years when Labor was in office. area who have been denied the opportunity to enrol with the Sydney technical college During the recess the electoral commis to pursue their technical training. It has sioners will be appointed. We know of only been well known over many years that New one at this stage; obviously he would be South Wales, and indeed Australia, is short the Electoral Commissioner of New South of bricklaying apprentices and I find it dif Wales. The other two gentlemen-it might ficult to understand why twenty-eight young be a lady for a change as this seems to lads, mainly 15 or 16 years of age, were be a time when consideration is being given not given the opportunity to enrol for to the equality of women-are unknown apprenticeship training in bricklaying this to us. There is considerable apprehension year. in the ranks of the Opposition that the Government has already prepared the boun Last month I was afforded an opportunity daries. I sincerely hope that this is not so. of inspecting the conditions in which the That did happen with the first redistribution trade of bricklaying is taught at the Gran in which the Government engaged. I sin ville technical college. They are a disgrace. cerely hope that the persons appointed will I speak with some feeling on the matter, for be of integrity and not influenced by any I am a bricklayer by trade. The conditions predetermination by the Government. I in which apprentices are taught bricklaying trust that members on this side of the House at Granville technical college are an indict will be given a fair go in this redistribution. ment of the Government, and show a lack Unless this happens the democratic pro of concern for the development of the build cesses in this State could well be under ing industry in this State. The space allo mined. cated to bricklaying apprentices has been reduced by half. Only two lockers are avail I merely lay emphasis on that issue, able to all the bricklaying apprentices at the which is terribly important. The House is school; the place is filthy and the working rising and we shall have no opportunity conditions of the teachers are a disgrace. before the budget session, which will begin One 15-year-old bricklaying apprentice in Adjournment [12 APR.7 1973] Pcinted Questions and Answers 49'11 my electorate has to travel to Randwick POLICE COMPUTER from Fairfield one day a week for tuition. Mr MALLAM asked the PREMIER AND He should not have to go that far. I call TREASURER-( 1} What was the cost of on the Government to make available im acquisition and installation of the New mediately enough money to ensure that the South Wales police computer? (2) For twenty-eight lads seeking to be trained in what prurpose was it originally purchased? bricklaying are given proper training (3} For what purpose is it now being used? facilities. There has been some talk of reopening Answer-( 1) $446,067 .H. (2) To per the bricklaying course at Sydney technical mit the development of a "real-time" com college. However, as most of the apprentices puter based information system covering to this trade are coming from the outer four main areas of research-real-time in western suburbs, the logical place to train formation retrieval; communication or mes them is in the western suburbs. I call on sage switching; police planning; administra the Government as a matter of urgency to tive processing. (3) The operation of the make the necessary finance available to pro crime intelfigence and information system. vide adequate training facilities for brick Other projects are at present being re• laying apprentices at Granville or at some searched with a vrew to computer adapta other place in the western suburbs. In addi tion. tion, boys who enrol in the bricklaying course at the beginning of next term will have lost one full term of training. How BETTERMENT TAX will they fare in examinations at the end of Mr MALLAM asked the PREMIER AND the year? Special consideration should be TREASURER-What was the total runount of given to instituting a crash course for them betterment tax paid since the imposition of to make up for the loss of the first term. I the tax, to date, on land resumed or pur ask the Government to deal with the matter chased by: (a) the Housing Commission; mgently. (b) the State Planning Authority; and (c) others? Mr PUNCH (Gloucester), Minister for Public Works '[12.22], in reply: I appre Answer-The Land Development Contri ciate the concern expressed by the honour bution Management Act came into effect on able member for Merrylands. I shall ensure 1st July, 1970. Between that date and 20th that the points raised by him are put before March, 1973, the following contributions the Minister for Education, and I have no were· paid in respect of tmnsactions involv doubt that he will contact the honourabte ing the sale to, or tlte resumption by, the gentleman about the matter at the earliest Housing Commission, the State Planning possible opportunity. Authority, and other government depart ments and instrumentalities, including coun Motion agreed to. cils, of lands to which orders under section House adjourned at. 12.B p.m. until 2.30 11 of the Act ~apply: p.m. on Tuesday, 12th June, 1973. $ (a) Housing Commission 154,483 (b) State Planning Authority 115,963 PRINTED QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS (c) Other govemment depart- The following questions upon notice and ments and instrumentali- answers were distdbuted. ties and councils 96,458 4912 Printed Questions and Answers [ASSEMBLY] Printed Questions and Answers LAND ACQUIRED BY HOUSING sumed or purchased by the authority since COMMISSION 1st January, 1965. However, it can be said Mr MALLAM asked the MINISTER FOR that, with the exception of the Blue Moun HousiNG AND MINISTER FOR Co-oPERATIVE tains electorate, land has been acquired in SociETIEs-For each year since 1st Jan all of the electorates. If particulars of any uary, 1965-( 1) What was the total area specific acquisition of land by the authority of land resumed or purchased by the Hous are required, these will be provided on ing Commission in each of the electorates request. of (i) Campbelltown, (ii) Nepean, (iii) Hawkesbury? (2) What was the total PERSONS STRUCK BY TRAINS amount paid for such 1and in each of the Mr MALLAM asked the MINISTER FOR ( above electorates? TRANSPORT-( 1) How many persons have Answer-It would be necessary for the been struck by trains in each month since State Planning Authol1ity to carry out much 1st November, 1972? (2) How many of detailed work in order to provide all of the these persons were killed or injured? (3) information sought relating to lands in the How many of these persons were railway electorates referred to in the question re- employees? Answer- RAIL EMPLOYEES OTHERS Fatality Injury Fatality Injury November, 1972 33 3 2 December, 1972 2 20 1 5 January, 1973 39 2 February, 1973 2 23 1 3 The statistics relating to employees injured do not actually specify whether an employee was struck by a train or track vehicle, but have been formulated into the following ,general headings; thirty, while coupling locomotives or wagons; thirty, while using permanent way track vehicles; fifty-five, by trains. PERSONS FALLING FROM TRAINS Mr MALLAM asked the MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT-How many persons were killed or injured by falling from trains in each month since 1st November, 1972? Answer- MONTH INJURIES FATALITIES Metropolitan Metropolitan Country area Country area November, 1972 25 2 December, 1972 26 1 January, 1973 24 3 1 February, 1973 25 3 1 1 100 7 4 1 Printed Questions and Answers [12 APR., 1973] Printed Questions and Answers 4913 PERSONS ATIACKED ON RAILWAY PROPERTY Mr MALLAM asked the MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT-How many persons were attacked while travelling on trains, or while on railway property each month since 1st November, 1972? Answer- MONTH ASSAULTS LOCALITY OF INCIDENTS Trains Station Premises November, 1972 16 10 6 December, 1972 12 5 7 January, 1973 16 9 7 February, 1973 9 3 6 53 27 26 MURRUMBIDGEE AND COLEAMBALLY (2) (a) Rentals of farms on the Mur- IRRIGATION AREAS rumbidgee Irrigation Area: Mr GORDON asked the MINISTER FOR For year CONSERVATION AND MINISTER FOR CUL ended $ TURAL ACTIVITIEs-( 1) How much bas 30.6.67 82,407 been received from sales of town blocks 30.6.68 87,463 on-(a) the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area, (b) the Coleambally Irrigation Area? (2) 30.6.69 82,703 How much has been received in each of the 30.6.70 84,864 past six years from (a) rentals of farms on 30.6.71 85,598 the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area, (b) ren 30.6.72 84,085 tals of farms on the Coleambally Irrigation Area, (c) rentals of town blocks on the (b) Rentals of farms on the Coleambally Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area, (d) rentals Irrigation Area: of town blocks on the Coleambally Irriga For year tion Area? ended $ Answer-(1) (a) The Murrumbidgee 30.6.67 203,631 Irrigation Area: total to 30th June, 1972, 30.6.68 200,642 $4,749,559; total for period 1st July, 1966, 30.6.69 241,902 to 30th June, 1972, $1,528,502. (b) The 30.6.70 316,384 Coleambally Irrigation Area: the Water 349,542 Conservation and Irrigation Commission bas 30.6.71 30.6.72 354,556 not disposed of any town land holdings in connection with the Coleambally Irrigation (c) Rentals of town blocks on the Mur Area. Lands required for stages I rumbidgee Irrigation Area: and II of the development of the town For year formerly under the control of this Commis ended $ sion and the Forestry Commission have been 30.6.67 61,024 transferred to the Murrumbidgee shire 30.6.68 67,648 council without charge, on the understand 30.6.69 61,657 ing that any land required for State purposes 30.6.70 68,035 will be reconveyed to the Government free 30.6.71 69,501 of cost. 30.6.72 74,103 4914 Printed Questions and Answers {ASSEMBLY] Printed Questions and Answers (d) Rentals of town b'iocks on the Cole the total area of parks or recreation areas ambally Irrigation Area~ Nil. -given over to the estalbli'Shment of (a) sport ing dubs, (b) swimming pools, and (c) The figures quoted are the total proceeds golf courses? both cash and credit for sales and rents and are not limited to cash only collected Answer-( 1) The areas of new land dedi by the Rural Bank. cated or reserved for the purpose of public recreation within the County of Cumber land were as follows: FIRE BRIGADE CASUALTIES 1965 454.2 hectares Mr MALLAM asked the CHIEF 1966 33'8.5 hectares SECRETARY AND MINISTER FOR SPORT-For 1967 485 hectares each year since 1st January, 1965, bow 1968 l6.74.hectares many firemen were killed or injured while 1969 38.47 hectares attending fire calls? 1970 156.6 hectares Answer-Records in respect of injuries 1971 164.4 hectares were not maintained prior to 1969. The 1972 59.90 hectares following shows the total number of officers The above figures refer only to areas and firemen injured while attending fire under the contml of the Department of caTis for each year from 19'69 onwards. The Lands and do not include reserves or dedi totals include all injuries reported and the cations for boy scouts, girl guides, com figures in brackets show the number where munity centres and charitable organizations minor injuries were sustained but no or area'S added to ·existing reserves or dedi absence fr-om duty was involved. cations for public recreation. 1969 134 ,(19) (2) This information is not av:ailable 1970 183 (38) fnom statistics kept by the Department of 1971 185 (36) Lands. 1972 183 (36) No officers or firemen have been killed TERMINATING CO-O:PERATIVE while attending fire calls ·since l'st January, SOCIETIES 1.965. Mr JACKSON a'Sked the MINISTER FOR HOUSING AND MINISTER FOR Co-OPERATIVE STOLEN GOODS SociETIES-( 1) How many directors of Mr MALLAM asked the PRlEMIER AND terminating co-operative societies are (a) TREASURER-( 1) What is the tot!lll value of between 72 and 80 years of age, and (b) goods :reported stolen during the year over 80 years of age? .(2) Does the Gov 1st January to 31st December, 1972? (2) ernment .intend to .allow directors over 72 What is the total value of goods recovered years of age to remain on the boM".ds of during that period? co-operativ.e societies:? Answer-The information sought will be A.nll"wer-The Government has no ready published in the annual report of the 'Police source of reference to ascertain precisely Department for the year 1972 which is at how many directors of .c meeting following his reaching the age of The Coleambally farms which have been 72 years. Such a person may only be re set apart were not designed for permanent elected by a two-thirds majority of members. rise growing as it was originally intended that rice be grown for only the first six years after settlement to assist in farm develop COLEAMBALLY IRRIGATION ment. Since rice growing has become per AREA-RICE manent for Coleambally farms the Water Mr GORDON asked the MINISTER FOR Conservation and Irrigation Commission has CoNSERVATION AND MINISTER FOR CuL carried out surveys to obtain a more detailed 'IURAL ACTIVITIES- ( 1) How many large evaluation of farm lands for rice growing. area farms on the Coleambally Irrigation This has been followed by examination of Area need a "build-up" of their acreage individual farm layouts to determine which to give four rotations of 80 acres of rice? farms are deficient in suitable rice land and (2) How many acres of land would be to assess the total situation in respect of required to accomplish this build-up? land requirements. The assessment of farm deficiencies has been done in close consul Answer-( 1) In determining whether or tation with the Department of Agriculture. not a Coleambally farm contains sufficient suitable land to enable a crop of rice to The commission's investigations have be grown each year, it is necessary to con shown that, based on the criteria previously sider the minimum rotation interval required explained, no more than 32 Coleambally for successful production of rice. farms have deficiencies in suitable rice land to varying degrees and would require ad This question required through con ditional land if rice is to be grown annually. sideration by an inter-departmental com mittee which recently reported on (2) To make up the deficiencies would the desirable size of mixed farms in require approximately 4,000 acres of suit the Murrumbidgee and Coleambally irri able rice land (with no restriction on rota gation areas. The expert opinion from the tion interval) or, at the other extreme, ap Department of Agriculture was that, al proximately 7,000 acres of marginally suit though there are many advantages to a four able land (where rice growing is restricted to six year rotation system, n~vertheless rice to one year in five). Depending on the can be grown much more intensively in New South Wales without serious detri quality and distribution of available land, ment to average yields. the area required simply to make up de ficiencies would be somewhere between these Based on expert advice and having regard two figures. ta the limited land suitable for rice growing in some parts of Coleambally Irrigation The commission is at present investigating Area, a farm is not considered to be de ways and means of assisting those Coleam ficient in rice land if it satisfies a minimum bally settlers whose holdings are deficient requirement of containing sufficient suitable in areas of land suitable for ricegrowing. land to accommodate two rice rotations without any restriction on the interval be tween rice crops, that is, approximately REGIONAL HOSPITAL LAUNDRY, double the acreage of rice grown each year. LISMORE There is other land in Coleambally Irri Mr DAY asked the MINISTER FOR gation Area assessed as marginally suitable HEALTH-( 1) What are the dimensions, for rice growing. On such land, the policy type and estimated cost of the proposed is to restrict rice growing to once each five regional hospital laundry building at Lis years. The deficiencies that may occur more? (2) What are the dimensions, type are thus determined by the land quality and the combinations within a farm of the two and what was the proposed purchase price classes of land which may be used for rice of the building offered by the Casino muni growing. cipal council for this purpose? 4916 Printed Questions and Answers [ASSEMBLY] Printed Questions and Answers ( 3) (a) Which hospitals will be serviced economic proposition. The total cost to im by the regional laundry; (b) What method plement a group laundry service from this of transport will be used between hospitals building would have been approximately and the laundry? $750,000. ( 4) (a) What is the estimated cost of (3) (a) The question as to which hospi equipping the laundry; (b) What is the esti tals will be serviced by the regional laundry mated value of laundry equipment already has not yet been determined; (b) All forms in those hospitals to be served by the of transport between hospitals and the laun regional laundry? What will be done with dry will be examined by the working party. this equipment in the future? ( 4) (a) The estimated cost of equipping ( 5) (a) What staff will be employed at the laundry is still under investigation and the regional laundry; (b) How many laun will not be known for some months; (b) dry staff is it expected will be retrenched Much of the equipment already in hospitals in those hospitals to be served by the in each month since 1st November, 1972? proposed laundry? very old. Consequently, no true estimates of the value of existing laundry equipment can Answer-(1) The information requested be given. Any equipment items still having is not available as yet. A "site report" on an economical life will be transferred to the Lismore site has been prepared and it other hospitals throughout the State. Equip has been determined that the proposed site ment which has no economical use and has is of adequate size for a group laundry. The inadequate production will be disposed of report recommended also that consideration by the best means. be given to a regional central sterile supply department. Approval has been given for a ( 5) (a) The numbers and classification working party to be formed to report upon of staff to be employed in the regional the ultimate size and capital cost of the unit, laundry is not known at this stage but this including the feasibility and cost benefits of aspect will be covered by the working party's establishing a regional linen and sterile report; (b) No staff in hospitals being supply service for the North Coast region. served by the regional laundry will be re Investigations are proceeding along these trenched. Staff whose jobs become redun lines but it will be some time before a report dant will be re-allocated other work. Some, from the working party will be available. of course, will be retained as linen distribu tors, part-time seamstresses, etc. (2) The building· offered by the Casino municipal council was approximately 157 feet by 24 feet and was a factory type build DERAILMENTS ing. The proposed purchase price was Mr MALLAM asked the MINISTER FOR $36,000. The main reasons why this pro TRANSPORT-( 1) How many derailments posal was not proceeded with were that the Department of Public Works considered occurred on the New South Wales railways that the cost of purchasing, the age of the in each month since 1st November, 1972? building and the cost of renovations to con (2) What were the areas in which these vert it to a group laundry made it an un- derailments occurred? Answer- (1) MONTH MAIN LINE YARD TOTAL November, 1972 5 99 104 December, 1972 6 120 126 January, 1973 12 91 103 February, 1973 5 120 125 28 430 458 Printed Questions and Answers [12 APR., 1973] Printed Questions and Answers 4917 (2) These derailments took place Queensland as a result of the throughout the system with a large percen Queensland Government's decision tage occurring in marshalling yards such as not to adopt daylight saving. Enfield, Darling Harbour, Broadmeadow (d) Problems experienced in the dairy and Port W aratah, as well as in private industry as a result of the non-ad- sidings. The remainder occurred in the justment of train schedules for the following traffic districts; metropolitan, rail pick-up of bulk milk. Goulburn, Lithgow, Newcastle, Junee, Orange, W erris Creek, South Grafton, (e) Difficulties experienced by farmers Illawarra. in gaining access to machinery repair agents. DAYLIGHT SAVING (f) Difficulties experienced by farmers in gaining access to silos. Mr DAY asked the CHIEF SECRETARY AND MINISTER FOR SPORT-( 1) What problems (g) Disruption to early evening news and concerning the effects of daylight saving current affairs programmes ( tele were dealt with by the daylight saving ad vision and radio) . visory committee? (2) What was the recom (2) In relation to problems (a) to (e) mendation of the committee in relation to each of the problems considered? the committee's recommendations were: (a) that the Minister for Education be Answe~(1) The committee dealt with requested to examine the feasibility the problems mentioned in correspondence of permitting schools outside the forwarded direct to the committee and cor metropolitan area to adjust their respondence forwarded to my department hours during daylight saving where and myself. It examined also problems this was considered desirable after raised by individual members of the commit consultation between the Education tee and with problems brought to my Department, inspectors, headmasters, attention by members of Parliament. teachers, and parents and citizens Many of these problems were individual associations; managerial problems, purely personal diffi (b) that the Postmaster-General be re culties, one largely psychological in nature, queste4 to extend the closing time of or other matters which the committee was manual telephone exchanges by one not in a position to resolve. The committee hour in the north, southwest and eliminated items in this category and ex western areas of the State; amined in detail matters which it considered were areas where significant problems might (c) that the Minister for Transport's co exist and in which some adjustment might operation be sought in bringing the be possible to alleviate the difficulties in time difference to the attention of volved. These were: transport inspectors in order that transport drivers would not be pena (a) Difficulties experienced by country lized; schoolchildren required to travel long (d) that the Minister for Transport be distances to and from school during approached to seek the co-operation the heat of the day. of the Commissioner for Railways (b) Hardship caused as a result of the to assist the New South Wales Dairy closing time of manual telephone Farmers Association in any way pos sible in this regard; exchanges not being delayed by one hour during daylight saving. (e) that the Tractor and Machinery As sociation of Australia be approached (c) The possible effect of daylight saving with the aim of extending availabi on the recording of times in trans lity of a contact point for city dealers port drivers' log books travelling in spare parts by at least an extra between New South Wales and hour during daylight saving. 4918 Printed Questions and Answers [ASSEMBLY] Royal Assent The problems experienced by farmers in MEMBERS SWORN gaining access to silos was satisfactorily re The following members took and sub solved by the committee and the Grain Ele scribed the oath of allegiance and signed the vators Board of New South Wales prior to roll: the committee's recommendations being forwarded to me. The Hon. J. B. M. Fuller, On the question of the disruption to early The Hon. H. J. McPherson, television and radio evening news and The Hon. R. A. A. F. de Bryon-Faes, current affairs programmes, the com The Hon. Kathleen Anderson, mittee held discussions with the broadcasting The Hon. C. J. Cahill, authorities concerned with a view to having The Hon. J. Calcraft, programmes put back one hour during the daylight saving period. The committee The Hon. L. P. Connellan, recommended also that I take the matter The Hon. D. D. Freeman, up with the Australian Broadcasting Com The Hon. H. B. French, mission and if it were not possible for the The Hon. J. R. Hallam, commission to have these programmes put The Hon. D.P. Landa, back one hour, that at least, a full weather segment be shown between 8.30 p.m. and The Hon. Violet Lloyd, 9 p.m. The Hon. P. McMahon, With the exception of the difficulties ex The Hon. R. G. Melville, perienced by persons using manual tele The Hon. M. F. Willis. phone exchanges during daylight saving, I am pleased to say that some positive results were obtained in respect of all problems ROYAL ASSENT considered by the committee. In the case of the operation of country manual tele Royal assent to the following bills phone exchanges during daylight saving, I reported: indicated that any extension of the closing Co-operation and Other Acts (Amendment) time of these exchanges could not be justi Bill fied on economic grounds. The Postmaster Electricity Development (Amendment) Bill General has, however, advised that his Mock Auctions Bill department would not raise any objection Workers' Compensation (Insurance) Bill where subscribers were able to make local Administration of Justice Bill arrangements with the office keepers to vary Companies (Amendment) Bill or extend the hours of attendance, with any Motor Traffic and Transport (Amendment) recompense to the office keepers being pro Bill vided by the subscribers. Audit (Amendment) Bill Dairy Industry (Amendment) Bill Electricity Commission (Superannuation) IJtgis!tttittt Amendment Bill aixtttttrU Grain Elevators (Amendment) Bill Wednesday, 2 May, 1973 Police Regulation (Superannuation and Ap- peals) Amendment Bill Members Sworn-Royal Assent-Governor's Salary Public Service (Amendment) Bill (Amendment) Bill-Vacant Seat (Resignation of Han. E. G. Wright)-Temporary Chairmen of Nurses Education Board Bill Committees-Bill Returned-Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (Amendment) Bill (Message)-Printing Nurses Registration (Amendment) Bill and Newspapers Bill (Message)-Private Irrigation Sydney Cove Redevelopment Authority Districts and Water (Amendment) Bill (Message) Legislative Council Representatives on University (Amendment) Bill CouncHs-Special Adjournment (Resignation of Sydney Opera House Trust (Amendment) Ron. E. G. Wright). Bill Transferred Officers Extended Leave The PRESIDENT took the chair at 4.29 p.m. (Amendment) Bill The Prayer was read. Zoological Parks Board Bill