IICSA - Benedictine Hearings 4 December 2017

1 Monday, 4 December 2017 1 A. After a summer holiday, yes. 2 (10.30 am) 2 Q. Finally, you were ordained in 1968; is that right? 3 THE CHAIR: Good morning, everyone. Good morning, 3 A. Yes. 4 Ms Karmy-Jones. 4 Q. Apart from those periods when you were away through 5 MS KARMY-JONES: Chair, the next witness to be called in 5 serious illness, were you only really away from 6 these proceedings is Father Leo Chamberlain. His 6 Ampleforth for the three to four years of your 7 statement is at volume 15A, tab 1, and for those without 7 university degree? 8 the bundles, the reference is AAT000213. 8 A. Well, it was something like approaching two years, at 9 Father Chamberlain appears on the videolink. 9 the age of 10, when I went to a local school, a very 10 FATHER LEO CHAMBERLAIN (sworn) 10 good little school, and part of that, yes, but I would 11 (Evidence given via videolink) 11 say that Oxford was one of the most important 12 Examination by MS KARMY-JONES 12 experiences of my life and many of my friendships date 13 MS KARMY-JONES: Father Leo, thank you for joining us. We 13 from that time. 14 understand that you have some medical issues. If, at 14 Q. Thinking back to that time when you were educated at 15 any stage, you need a break, would you please let us 15 Ampleforth, was there any behaviour by monks in that 16 know? 16 time which would today be considered a safeguarding 17 A. Certainly. I would like to start by echoing what 17 issue? 18 Father George Corrie said the other day about the shame 18 A. Nothing that I saw. 19 this brings upon Ampleforth, and also say that I will do 19 Q. You were appointed a housemaster in 1972. Who made that 20 my best but I only received this bundle two or three 20 appointment? 21 days ago and I am a parish priest at the weekend. Okay? 21 A. The headmaster, Father Patrick Barry. 22 I will do what I can. 22 Q. At that stage, the abbot was Basil Hume, I think; is 23 Q. Thank you. We will just have to give a little bit more 23 that right? 24 of a pause between questions and answers so we make sure 24 A. Yes. 25 we don't overlap in speaking, because if we do overlap, 25 Q. What association did Abbot Basil Hume have with the

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1 some of what one of us says will be lost. Okay? 1 school when you were appointed headmaster? 2 A. Leave a pause after the question, or can I speak 2 A. By that time, he was already at Westminster, of course. 3 straight away as soon as I see it? 3 I knew him, and at the -- to which I refer when I made 4 Q. Leave a slight pause. 4 my evidence, the conference -- I had worked for relief 5 A. Right. Okay. 5 of persecuted Christians in Eastern Europe, among other 6 Q. Let's see how that works. 6 things, and (break in connection) ... 7 I am going to ask you first about your background 7 Q. Sorry, we are losing the volume. We can't actually hear 8 and your association with Ampleforth College. Were you 8 you, Father Leo. 9 educated at Ampleforth? 9 A. Shall I try again? 10 A. Yes. 10 Q. Yes. 11 Q. From about what age? 11 A. I was -- in the 1980s, I did a great deal for Eastern 12 A. Well, I went to Gilling Castle Prep School at the age of 12 Europe, especially Poland, in the end, and in 1990, we 13 nine, but had to be withdrawn at the end of that term 13 held the conference "A Time for Change" and 14 because of a serious illness, tubercular -- TB 14 Cardinal Hume came to preside over it, and so I had 15 associated, so I only got back well over a year, two 15 close contact with him and many others over that period. 16 years later, almost. I then went to Ampleforth itself, 16 Q. What year were you appointed headmaster? 17 junior house in Ampleforth, in my teens with the 17 A. 1992. In formal terms, I was acting headmaster for one 18 recurrences of this problem but gradually working 18 term because my predecessor was chairman of Headmasters' 19 through it with the help of new drugs. 19 Conference. 20 Q. When you left Ampleforth, did you go to Oxford to read 20 Q. During your time as a teacher, were you also a member of 21 history? 21 the abbot's council? 22 A. I had a scholarship at the University College of Oxford. 22 A. I became a member about five or six years before 23 Q. That was between 1958 and 1961? 23 I became headmaster. 24 A. Yes. 24 Q. Just help us with what that means, being a member of 25 Q. After that, did you return to Ampleforth? 25 the abbot's council?

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1 A. Principally, to advise the abbot on any matter he 1 already told us you began in 1992 succeeding, I think, 2 chooses to bring forward, and in particular the whole 2 Father Dominic Milroy? 3 question of administration of the community -- I'm 3 A. Yes. 4 sorry, I can't recall an immediate agenda for you, but 4 Q. At that point, you'd been at Ampleforth for something 5 you would expect that anything of importance going on 5 like 30 years as a teacher; is that right? 6 would be discussed or mentioned. 6 A. As teacher, housemaster and head of history. 7 Q. Were safeguarding matters mentioned and discussed in the 7 Q. When you began as headmaster, was there any training in 8 abbot's council? 8 respect of safeguarding? 9 A. Before I was headmaster? 9 A. The answer is no. I think that that sort of thing 10 Q. Yes. 10 certainly had not been set up anywhere that I knew 11 A. I don't think that the word was even really known. 11 about. 12 I didn't know it, and I don't recall any discussion of 12 Q. How much contact would there have been between you as 13 safeguarding. But I do recall -- this was the style 13 headmaster and the abbot? 14 that things were done in those days -- the abbot 14 A. Frequent, and I regarded it as very important that the 15 mentioning an indiscretion committed by Father -- is 15 abbot should know exactly of anything that mattered 16 there a cipher? 16 going on in the school. On his side, though, he was 17 Q. Is it Father Gregory? 17 equally anxious that where a responsibility was mine, it 18 A. Yes. Okay, if I can name names, yes. He had been taken 18 should remain mine. 19 straight out of the school, I believe given therapy, and 19 Q. Is it right that you would tell him about any issues of 20 was then on a -- then I'm not quite sure where he was. 20 concern but he would not share the same kind of 21 But the mention in council was simply that this had 21 information with you? 22 happened, and no further discussion about it. It is not 22 A. I would say Abbot Patrick shared everything he could, 23 in council minutes, I understand. 23 but I don't recall any particular discussion on 24 Q. Was anyone else at the school told about Father Gregory? 24 safeguarding issues. It was my bringing him the bad 25 A. I wasn't headmaster. I don't recollect any briefing to 25 news.

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1 the staff; simply, he was no longer there. 1 Q. How did he respond to bad news? 2 Q. He was sent to somewhere in 1987, so this is just 2 A. Father Patrick? 3 before -- a few years before you became headmaster? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Yes. That was why I knew it. I was on the abbot's 4 A. Well, as we have just covered, with 5 council. 5 Father Gregory Carroll, he acted in what was really the 6 Q. Was anyone at the abbey told about Father Gregory? 6 traditional way, not just at Ampleforth. 7 A. Well, I can assume that the community understood what 7 When the first case, Bernard Green, came to me, 8 had happened, and I'm quite sure the abbot would have 8 I had just then taken on other advisers (break in 9 shared this with people advising him personally and 9 connection) depth of advice, but my reaction was that 10 closely. 10 this was not something which could be dealt with in what 11 Q. You mentioned that there was no record of this 11 you would call the customary way and it was, in legal 12 discussion. What was record keeping like in that early 12 terms, a crime, even if at the slighter end of that 13 period in the '80s and early '90s? 13 spectrum, but nevertheless a crime, and it had to be 14 A. There wasn't a discussion. It was simply a mention. 14 dealt with publicly. That was the view I took. 15 But I would say, from what I've seen of them, the 15 Advisers concurred with me the next morning and 16 records are quite careful, with the exception that we 16 Abbot Patrick supported me. 17 have not been clever at keeping all the developments of 17 Q. What was your approach to safeguarding and child 18 child and vulnerable adult safeguarding policy in 18 protection? 19 successive instalments. We simply updated it as the 19 A. We had to take the proper steps. Within a few months of 20 '90s went on. 20 becoming headmaster, I had known the background of 21 Q. You were appointed master of St Benet's Hall, Oxford, in 21 a serious case at another school, a well-known school, 22 2004 or 2005; is that right? 22 and the passing of the first Children Act which brought 23 A. I retired as headmaster in January 2004. I arrived at 23 the independent schools within the ambit of the Act, 24 St Benet's that following September. 24 I thought, we have to have a framework of what we call 25 Q. Just going over your time as headmaster, you have 25 now safeguarding, and that I set out in those first

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1 months. It was brief certainly by today's standards, 1 A. It didn't apply because he brought information about 2 but had the merit of being something that people would 2 himself. 3 probably recall but -- and also starting to alert the 3 Q. Did that second point only relate to a situation where 4 staff not just to documentation, but to particularly 4 a third party raised a concern that abuse may be going 5 their own presence of mind. 5 on? 6 Q. I think the document that you refer to is at reference 6 A. Yes. 7 AAT000288_001. For you, that's volume 15A, divider B1. 7 Q. So in this document, did you not deal with the fourth 8 Perhaps we can just have a look at that. 8 situation, about a monk disclosing abuse he himself has 9 A. Yes, I have it. 9 or is committing? 10 Q. As you say, it is a brief document, but was this 10 A. It didn't occur to me that that would happen, and it 11 Ampleforth's first guideline in September 1993? 11 actually did happen because boys concerned were 12 A. I think so. I think be wrong, but I think so. 12 disturbed -- as I said, it was not at the serious end, 13 Q. It sets out that the general conduct of enquiries is the 13 but, nevertheless, it mattered -- and they then went to 14 responsibility of the headmaster. That's the first 14 Father Cuthbert Madden for advice because they trusted 15 paragraph? 15 him wholly. He advised them that it must come to the 16 A. Yes. 16 headmaster and that if Father Bernard was not willing to 17 Q. You say: 17 admit it himself, they would have to go to see the 18 "I have delegated immediate responsibility to 18 headmaster themselves. In the end, Father Bernard Green 19 Father Timothy, who will also act as liaison with the 19 chose to come to me with the admission. 20 appropriate outside agencies." 20 Q. Just looking at the policy that you drafted at the 21 A. He was second -- 21 time -- this is a couple of years before the Father 22 Q. Which Father Timothy was that? 22 Bernard Green incident -- we are just looking at how 23 A. Father Timothy Wright, second master. 23 policies have developed; okay? 24 Q. It then sets out the procedure that is intended to serve 24 A. Yes. 25 the interests of the boys, staff and school. It is 25 Q. You set out the most appropriate and effective way of

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1 based on the recommendations to the medical profession 1 dealing with each situation, and in respect of a boy 2 by the DHSS? 2 disclosing, himself, you list five ways of dealing with 3 A. Yes. 3 it, the third of which is, "Do not question or 4 Q. You say: 4 investigate further yourself. It only leads to distress 5 "There are three ways in which anxiety could be 5 and may well lead to closing up by the boy or to 6 aroused: 6 fabrication"; yes? 7 "- a boy spontaneously tells you he has been abused; 7 A. Yes. 8 "- you hear from another source that abuse is going 8 Q. Then, in respect of information coming from others, you 9 on; 9 make it clear that confidentiality should not be 10 "- your own suspicions are aroused by what you 10 promised in advance of hearing the story; that notes 11 observe or hear." 11 should be taken later? 12 A. Yes. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. In respect of the second of those, "you hear from 13 Q. It says: 14 another source", what did you envisage -- what situation 14 "Do not take the matter up in any way with the 15 did you envisage that to cover? 15 people reported to be involved." 16 A. Well, possibly a teacher coming to me. You never know. 16 And: 17 Any other source. 17 "Suspicion based on your own observations"? 18 Q. Did that include a monk himself disclosing abuse that he 18 A. Sorry, you missed out -- 19 had committed or was committing? 19 Q. I'm sorry, I wasn't reading the whole. It is on the 20 A. That is what happened in the case of Father 20 screen in front of us. I am just highlighting a couple 21 Bernard Green, but there's a background to that. 21 of points. But I will, if it concerns you? 22 Q. We will come back to Father Green in a moment, if we 22 A. No, that's all right. 23 may. But as far as you were concerned, writing this, 23 Q. I do understand. I'm quite happy to read it out, if you 24 did you consider that second point covered that 24 like, but it is on the screen in front of us. I will 25 situation? 25 just make it clear.

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1 A. If you have got it on the screen, that's fine. Yes. 1 had committed a crime. He was rather vague about it. 2 Q. In respect of the third way in which anxiety could be 2 And that the group around him knew about it, but were in 3 aroused, where suspicion might be based on your own 3 fact simply keeping mum. So that information came to me 4 observations, you suggest that the matter should be 4 and I could see at once that under the Nolan guidelines 5 taken immediately to Father Timothy with as much 5 this was a rumour, it was not sufficient to call in the 6 background as possible, and you say: 6 statutory authorities. When I finally, some time later, 7 "Do not initiate your own enquiries." 7 spoke with a police detective inspector, I explained 8 Yes? 8 this and she said, "Yes, it's all right. If people 9 A. Yes. 9 reported in that sort of way, we would be rather busy". 10 Q. Was this your view, that that was the best way to 10 Q. So in terms of the action that you took, at 11 approach an allegation of abuse at that time, in 1993? 11 paragraph 3(b), you said that you will write to the 12 A. As far as I could see. This whole process developed 12 Old Amplefordian to say that you would investigate and 13 very much, even under my headmastership. 13 to offer to meet him, if helpful? 14 Q. Did you draft subsequent policies? 14 A. Yes. 15 A. I had advice. I can't be precise about that. 15 Q. And at (d) you said: 16 I certainly was in touch with our solicitors, the very 16 "Subject to this advice [received]: 17 distinguished Matthew Wrigley, whose loss I mourn, and 17 "(i) I will inform the person against whom the 18 with other people working, who were close to me, on the 18 allegation has been made and set up means whereby he may 19 College Committee, which is an administration structure 19 discuss the question with me or with an absolutely 20 I had set up in the school. 20 reliable interlocutor." 21 Q. I think at paragraph 15 of your statement you say that 21 A. Yes. It didn't work out quite that way. There is 22 between 1992 and 2004, you were the main author of child 22 another document somewhere in which I argue out to 23 protection policies at Ampleforth, together with the 23 myself the steps that I could or should take. 24 Abbots Patrick Barry and subsequently Timothy Wright? 24 Q. Was that really appropriate, in light of your procedural 25 A. Yes, but I'm quite sure we also took legal advice. 25 document of nine years before?

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1 Q. Yes, I think you indicate that in your statement, that 1 A. It went beyond that. It was a situation in which 2 you took guidance from a variety of sources such as the 2 someone had been concerned about it writing personally 3 Department of Education, the Home Office and 3 to me, but what was the form in front of me -- the 4 social services, and you were assisted through that time 4 choices I could make is in the other memo which I wrote 5 by Ampleforth's solicitors? 5 to myself which I also did share with the abbot, 6 A. These were published thoughts, yes. 6 I think. But I had a choice: rumour, do nothing about 7 Q. I'm just going to ask you to go to another document. 7 it. I did not think that was acceptable. I'm sorry, 8 For our reference, it's AAT000103_001. In the hard 8 I haven't found the right document. 9 copy, it is volume B, divider D3, page 1. 9 Q. It's all right. Father Leo, there will always be an 10 A. Yes. 10 opportunity, if there is another document you wish us to 11 Q. This is a document titled "Procedure for Investigation", 11 refer us to, for that to be taken into account. 12 dated 10 January 2002, so nine years or so, eight to 12 A. All I would say simply is, I looked at the options. 13 nine years, after the last document we looked at? 13 I thought it was not an option to do nothing. There 14 A. Yes. This was a particularly difficult case. 14 wasn't a possibility of working through other people who 15 Q. You had been provided, it says under paragraph 2, with 15 had -- whose names I didn't have, mostly, anyway, and 16 information at third hand by an anxious Old Amplefordian 16 that I would try to find out some, and I then did, and 17 about an allegation of abuse relating to events before 17 so I tried that and one of them said "Well, Father, 18 1989, probably about 1984 to 1985. 18 I will say a prayer for you", and wouldn't say anything 19 A. Yes. It is further down in this bundle, I think. It 19 more. In the end, having the name of the victim, 20 was from an Old Amplefordian, who had met a university 20 I telephoned him myself. It was the only way I could 21 friend on a train, and the university friend had spoken 21 get what would amount to an allegation. 22 to him about RC-F (break in connection). 22 Q. Did you ever consider telling the police? 23 Q. Sorry, we lost you. Can you just give us that again? 23 A. I considered the possibility, but, again, it was rumour. 24 A. The person on the train met a university friend. The 24 The question was, were we going to get through to 25 university friend told him that he had heard that RC-F16 25 something which I could hand over to the police, and the

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1 victim was angry and said all he wanted was the person 1 there, in the 10 years? 2 concerned to be taken -- RC-F16 to leave his job, and 2 A. No. That -- I would say there had been quite a lot of 3 I said, "I'm sorry, but you have talked to a lot of 3 development because we knew more and more about it, but 4 people about this. They all know your story, and 4 that document is one of a bundle which puts together the 5 I cannot leave it at that. I have an obligation under 5 child protection policies in force in the college. So 6 the law". So we then proceeded. But in the end, RC-F16 6 there had been quite clearly -- the whole bundle is much 7 was not charged because the victim absolutely refused to 7 thicker, and it covers much more ground and different 8 go further with the police. 8 parts of staff and the school, and I'd given more 9 Q. But you had spoken to the victim first, hadn't you? 9 information about it. 10 A. Yes, necessarily. 10 Q. But this is the procedure to be followed following an 11 Q. In 2003, there was a further policy drafted, a much 11 allegation of abuse of students, isn't it? 12 longer policy. It is behind divider 2 of the same 12 A. Yes. I expected to be able to follow. And in the 13 bundle, E2, at AAT000499. I am going to turn to 13 instance we are talking about, concerning RC-F16, it 14 page 52. It is B2, forgive me. Have you got that? Is 14 became quite evident that it could not be followed and, 15 that the 2003 policy? 15 as I said, I did a memo which in fact set out what my 16 A. Yes. 16 options were, and the option I eventually decided, there 17 Q. If you turn to page 52 of that document, at (c) at the 17 was no choice about it, was to take it further on my own 18 top we can see that this is the procedures following 18 part so that I would have something I could actually 19 allegations of abuse of students by adults or other 19 give to the police. As I said, I had only rumour. 20 students. Do you see? 20 Q. This document, a year after that last occasion with 21 A. That's 53. 52. No. 21 RC-F16, where you conducted an investigation, again, it 22 Q. 52. I think there is someone there who might be able to 22 doesn't give any thought to the position of a monk 23 help you. It is in the first volume, 1 of 3, and it is 23 disclosing about himself, does it? 24 behind divider B2, at page 52 at the bottom. 24 A. No, that is true. 25 A. It is page 52. Yes, (c), I have got it. 25 Q. This was after Bernard Green, wasn't it?

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1 Q. So this is 2003, the last policy being 1993. So this is 1 A. Indeed. I think probably that is an unfortunate 2 about 10 years on. 2 omission. But it is not a thing which happens very 3 A. Yes. 3 often and that is the only instance I know of it 4 Q. If we look at (c), you have: 4 happening. 5 "Procedures following allegations of abuse of 5 Q. It gives the same recommendations of dealing with signs 6 students by adults or other students." 6 of abuse, including, "Do not question or investigate 7 Do you see that? 7 further yourself"; is that right? 8 A. Yes. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You have some general points describing what abuse may 9 Q. And, "Do not take the matter up with any of the people 10 include -- physical, sexual, emotional, harassment 10 reported to be involved"? 11 because of race or gender and different kinds of 11 A. Yes. 12 bullying. 12 Q. An observation that you make in your statement is that 13 At paragraph (ii), there is "Signs of abuse"? 13 there were other policies but that it appears that they 14 A. Yes. 14 have not been retained; is that correct? 15 Q. And you list three ways in which anxiety could be 15 A. No. That section covers -- as I said, we didn't keep 16 aroused? 16 the successive versions, of which there probably were 17 A. Yes. 17 some, but I do not now recall. But that section covers 18 Q. "A student spontaneously tells you he/she has been 18 what we had in force for the staff, the Ampleforth code 19 abused; 19 I think, for the students, and so on, as you can see. 20 "You hear from another source that abuse is going 20 Q. What were the safeguarding policies in place -- were the 21 on; 21 safeguarding policies in place, in the 1990s and early 22 "Your own suspicions are aroused by what you observe 22 2000s, adequate, in your view? 23 or hear." 23 A. I would say, by today's standards, they required much 24 A. That section is virtually the same as the 1993 document. 24 more development, but by the standards of the time, they 25 Q. Yes. Exactly. There had been little development, had 25 gave us what we needed, except that in this difficult

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1 case that then came concerning RC-F16, there was no way 1 telephoned social services? 2 forward. I either would have to leave it aside or find 2 A. I didn't think anything. I knew that that was what had 3 a way of getting into it. 3 to be done, and I think it -- it seemed to me, if things 4 I tried that with acquaintances and got nowhere, and 4 went their normal way it would end up in court. 5 in the end took the step I have described, which enabled 5 Q. Did you consider contacting the police yourself? 6 me (break in connection) the allegation and to refuse 6 A. I think statutory authority means the same thing. 7 simply to remove the person from the post, and decided 7 I expected the police to be involved from that point on. 8 it had to go to the statutory authorities, and I had 8 Q. This is a question from some others in the room. I ask 9 been seeking to get to a position in which I could do 9 it because I'm asked to: what was the content of your 10 that and hand it over. 10 discussions with the police? 11 Q. I am going to come back to RC-F16 in a little while, if 11 A. I cannot now recall any detail. I simply told them what 12 I may. 12 I could tell them. And, you see, they already had an 13 A. Yes. 13 admission. 14 Q. Can you just help us with, on a practical level, what 14 Q. Did you investigate the matters before contacting the 15 actually happened when a safeguarding concern arose? 15 statutory authorities? 16 A. Well, I cannot recall any safeguarding questions coming 16 A. No. 17 up to me other than the ones we are discussing. 17 Q. Did you speak to the boy in question before contacting 18 Q. I think that at paragraph 11, you say that if 18 the statutory authorities? 19 a safeguarding concern arose, it would be passed to you 19 A. No. I took care that the victim should be looked after. 20 as headmaster by whomever the disclosure had been made. 20 That seemed to me very important. I can tell you how 21 A. Yes. 21 I did, if you wish. 22 Q. You then would try and deal with it. 22 Q. Certainly, but if I could just ask you this before you 23 A. Yes. 23 do that: are you aware that the police officer in that 24 Q. But you also say that under your predecessors, there had 24 case expressed concern that you were trying to control 25 been a tendency to try to deal with any such issue 25 the investigation? That's Detective Sergeant Hartnett?

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1 in-house. What do you mean by that? 1 A. I have read that evidence. It is completely subjective. 2 A. Yes. I mean by that, that back in the '80s, it was, 2 I wonder if he's speaking to his own prejudices, because 3 I think, not just at Ampleforth, common that if 3 the very fact that I was bringing it to him showed that 4 something of that sort happened, a teacher who had 4 I was not going to stay in control of it, and I didn't 5 committed abuse would be got rid of and it was thought, 5 expect to stay in control of it. 6 wrongly, that to keep it all very quiet was in the best 6 Q. Though you didn't take it to police, you took it to 7 interests of the victim. Now we know now that is not 7 social services; is that right? 8 the case, and that was part of my own learning in 8 A. I think that was in the first instance. This is quite 9 dealing with it in the '90s. But at the start of my -- 9 a long time ago. But the social services, I think, as 10 my concern was, in the first place, for the victim and 10 I rather expected, took it to the police, and we had 11 then, in the second place, to ensure that the abuser was 11 a direct contact with social services, anything we 12 actually dealt with. 12 needed, and I think the meeting that I had, it may have 13 Q. You told us about the Bernard Green instance and how the 13 been later on the same day, I think the police were 14 matter was brought to your attention. Who else was 14 involved from the start. 15 aware of that allegation? 15 Q. Are you aware that he was concerned -- 16 A. The five boys concerned who went to Father Cuthbert 16 A. I can't -- sorry? 17 Madden because they trusted him, and he advised them, 17 Q. It's all right. Are you aware that he was concerned 18 and the result was that they spoke with Father Bernard 18 about the fact that you had spoken to the child before 19 and he then came to me himself. 19 police were able to take a full account? 20 Q. How did the police first become aware of the incident? 20 A. I don't recall that, but the child didn't want to speak 21 A. When this was quite clear, and I couldn't have done it 21 to anyone. He was in touch with his own parents, who 22 this way around now, but I did an immediate letter to 22 were abroad, and that was the end of that, as far as 23 parents to say what I was -- and the very same morning 23 I was concerned. What mattered was we had an admission. 24 I telephoned the social services. 24 So even though there was no cooperation there, it didn't 25 Q. What did you initially think would happen when you 25 matter.

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1 Q. He was also concerned about your dealings with the 1 the Paramountcy Principle obviously neglects to consider 2 family and described how you had a telephone 2 the possibility that an offender will reoffend as well 3 conversation with the parents and asked him to leave the 3 as fundamentally the victim's need for further help." 4 room whilst you spoke to them, after which it was 4 What did you mean by that? 5 confirmed that the child would not give any account. 5 A. By what? The victim needed further help. We all know 6 A. I had to speak with the parents. The parents were 6 that now. 7 abroad. My duty was certainly to inform parents as soon 7 Q. Yes. 8 as I can of an event of this sort and to put them -- in 8 A. And I think it was a misapplication of what we now call 9 fact, an aunt, it was, came to take the victim away to 9 the Paramountcy Principle, to behave, as in many 10 look after him, and his very level-headed parents then 10 places -- in Ampleforth, and said at Ampleforth -- had 11 took steps or the aunt, I'm not quite sure what. As far 11 behaved before. As for the perpetrator, the danger is 12 as I was concerned, the point was, the victim was being 12 that he would be a recidivist. In other words, that 13 looked after, and when the next thing came up, he talked 13 also should not be left aside. 14 with his own parents and he said, "No, I don't want to 14 Q. In your view, did the position change at Ampleforth? 15 give any evidence", and this was confirmed when the 15 A. I think it changed decisively from the moment that 16 police came and I put him on the telephone. There was 16 I brought social services and police into the case of 17 no skulduggery before I put him on the telephone. 17 Father Bernard Green. 18 Q. Were you aware that there was a concern that you had 18 Q. We know that eventually he returned to the monastery and 19 interfered with the police investigation? 19 was sent to St Benet's Hall in Oxford; is that right? 20 A. Well, so he said, but I think that that is not true. My 20 A. Yes. 21 responsibility is precisely to tell the parents. The 21 Q. There were some allegations of inappropriate behaviour 22 parents were away, and so we had to do what we could to 22 there towards some students in 2005 and 2009? 23 fit everything together. That is a duty of 23 A. Yes -- 2005. 24 responsibility. It made no obstruction to any police 24 Q. Yes. 25 investigation. 25 A. Not 2009.

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1 Q. Were you surprised that the prosecution continued, 1 Q. We will check that. What was the overall effect of 2 despite the child not wishing to give a statement? 2 the Nolan Report on Ampleforth? 3 A. No. 3 A. I was grateful for it because it provided us with 4 Q. In December of that year -- I won't take you to the 4 a framework within which one should treat a case of this 5 page -- there was a letter to you from the parents of 5 sort. We know now it was not complete. Cumberlege 6 the child concerned, which is at AAT000477_005 -- 6 added more to it. 7 I don't ask for it to be brought up -- in which they 7 Q. What was your understanding of the changes that would be 8 confirmed that the boy did not wish to say anything more 8 required to what was in place at Ampleforth? 9 about it -- 9 A. Well, you had the way things stood in 2003, and 10 A. Yes. 10 subsequently to my headmastership, there was further 11 Q. -- and did not wish to give a statement, and that they 11 development when Father Gabriel Everitt was headmaster 12 felt that it was not in his best interests to do so. 12 and also Father Wulstan. But I can't speak to that. 13 A. Yes. By that time, I don't think the case had come to 13 Q. What was the nature of your relationship with 14 court. 14 Father George Corrie? 15 Q. In that letter, those parents also said that they did 15 A. When he was Prior -- we worked together over quite 16 not feel a prosecution would serve any beneficial 16 a number of things in practice, so I cannot now recall 17 purpose? 17 any particular point, but his responsibility for 18 A. Yes. 18 safeguarding was the monastery, not over the school, and 19 Q. At paragraph 12 of your statement, and you have 19 so that's as it was. I mean, I did certainly see a lot 20 mentioned this already, you said that during the early 20 of him. 21 part of your time as headmaster, the prevailing view 21 Q. Father Leo, I am conscious that you have been going for 22 generally and not just at Ampleforth was that it was in 22 an hour now and you do have some medical difficulties. 23 a victim's interest to draw as little attention to an 23 A. I'm all right. 24 incident of abuse as possible, and you go on to say: 24 Q. Are you all right? 25 "This distorted interpretation of what would become 25 A. Yes. Thank you all the same.

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1 Q. Please don't hesitate to let us know. 1 A. Were they qualified and did they have the right kind of 2 You pointed out that he was responsible for the 2 personality to be a teacher: the obvious points, as 3 monastery. 3 would be with the appointment of any teacher. 4 A. Yes. 4 Q. Was the suitability of any monk chosen to teach within 5 Q. During the course of these proceedings, it has been said 5 the college monitored on an ongoing basis? 6 that there was a policy of no policy for the monks in 6 A. As with any teacher. 7 the abbey. Would you agree with that statement or not? 7 Q. Was preference given to a monk in the community over 8 A. I know that Abbot Timothy Wright took a different line 8 someone coming from the outside? 9 over some of these things. Whether your summary would 9 A. In principle, you have to appoint the best person for 10 be accurate, I can't really say. 10 the job. If a monk could do the job well, then we 11 Q. What was his different line? What was different about 11 probably would not need to advertise outside. But if 12 it? 12 there was doubt about it, then there would -- we would 13 A. I'm surmising, but it seems to the effect that he didn't 13 proceed otherwise. 14 want to set out the kind of guidelines I had in the 14 Q. In your view, was the wish to give monks a meaningful 15 school. But I really cannot -- you'll have to ask him 15 vocation and work through teaching in schools affiliated 16 about that. 16 to abbeys prioritising over selecting monks suitable to 17 Q. How much involvement did you have with the monastery? 17 teach children? 18 A. I'm a monk. I would -- I would like to get to at least 18 A. Yes, I read that question. It sounds as though you are 19 some of the Divine Office, and I would eat with the 19 talking about the recruitment of new members of 20 community every so often and meet people, of course. It 20 the community. 21 is an isolating job and particular difficulties arose 21 Q. Yes. 22 after the Bernard Green case. 22 A. That would not be the case. The question is, do you 23 Q. You mentioned that in the early years you would discuss 23 truly seek God? That is the basic question asked of 24 everything with Abbot Patrick Barry. Was that the case 24 someone who wishes to talk about joining the community. 25 with Abbot Timothy as well, or not? 25 Q. The question may also, and I think you will appreciate

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1 A. I told him all I knew, but it wasn't always reciprocal, 1 it is a question from one of the other participants in 2 and he made mistakes, I think, there were things which 2 the room, be related to the wish to give a monk 3 he should have told me about. 3 a meaningful vocation and work through teaching in the 4 Q. Are you aware of anything that he did not tell you about 4 schools. Was that the priority over selecting people 5 that he should have told you about? 5 who may have been more suitable to teach children? 6 A. Yes, but not a matter of abuse. 6 A. Well, I have already said that whether a monk was 7 Q. What was Abbot Timothy's approach to the Nolan Report? 7 suitable to teach children would have to be judged, in 8 A. As far as I know, he read it and took the steps he 8 the way you would judge it of any person. 9 thought suitable. I really cannot speak for him. 9 Q. Just looking at governance and structure, 10 Q. From what you observed as a monk at Ampleforth under his 10 in November 2007, the preliminary meeting of the Child 11 abbacy, was he welcoming of the Nolan Report? 11 Protection Commission noted that there could be an issue 12 A. I can't remember any reaction in particular. 12 with monks teaching in schools. Specifically, it was 13 Q. Did you notice any significant change to safeguarding in 13 said that the abbot and community are responsible for 14 the monastery after Nolan? 14 the monks' well-being and responsible to the school for 15 A. I can't speak to that either, because I was wholly 15 the monks' proper behaviour. Where an allegation is 16 concentrated on the school. 16 made, who is responsible for taking charge of 17 Q. Can I just ask you about recruitment, please? 17 the situation -- the monastery or the school? 18 A. Yes. 18 A. Of a monk teacher, the headmaster. 19 Q. How were monks chosen to be suitable to teach within 19 Q. In your view, should there be a difference between how 20 Ampleforth College? 20 abbeys with attached schools are managed as compared 21 A. You mean people who already were monks -- 21 with those without attached schools, particularly in 22 Q. Yes. 22 respect of safeguarding? 23 A. -- or people joining the community? 23 A. No, I would have said in principle, safeguarding which 24 Q. People who were already monks. How were they chosen to 24 would apply to visitors to an abbey without a school 25 be suitable to teach within the college? 25 would be much the same as when you had a school. But

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1 the development of the governance of Ampleforth had been 1 a man of character who would have to withstand a lot. 2 considerable, and I know today, though I cannot give you 2 Q. I'm just going to ask you about the nature and extent of 3 detail, you would have to look to my successors, that 3 Ampleforth's relationship with some of the other bodies, 4 the St Laurence Education Trust is now a body which has 4 and then perhaps it would be an appropriate time for our 5 a majority of lay people on it to which the school 5 morning break. 6 reports. 6 What was Ampleforth's relationship like with COPCA 7 Q. Were you aware of Ampleforth monks being moved to 7 during your time after Nolan? 8 Scotland and Fort Augustus and back perhaps from 8 A. Well, we had contact with them, I'm sure, but I cannot 9 Fort Augustus? 9 now recall any details. 10 A. No, I do not think any Ampleforth monk was moved to 10 Q. Did you ever seek guidance from COPCA? 11 Fort Augustus. It would be unusual. Though sometimes 11 A. I think we had guidance from others -- 12 someone is lent to help another community. I do not 12 Q. But did you, yourself -- 13 think anyone -- 13 A. -- but I can't be sure about that. I do not remember 14 Q. Were you aware of anyone moving from Fort Augustus to 14 getting in touch with COPCA. 15 Ampleforth? 15 MS KARMY-JONES: We are a little early, but I am about to 16 A. Well, Fort Augustus Abbey was in serious trouble over 16 embark on a much longer section. Might that be an 17 its school, but I can't give you the exact date. The 17 appropriate moment for a morning break? 18 headmaster at that time was Father Francis Davidson. He 18 THE CHAIR: Yes, indeed. We will return at 11.55 am. 19 recommended that the school must be closed. They would 19 MS KARMY-JONES: We are just going to have a break, 20 otherwise face impossible losses. 20 Father Leo. 21 There was then a surge of emotion, understandable 21 A. All right. Thank you. 22 emotion, and everyone wanted to keep it going -- loyal, 22 (11.40 am) 23 old members of the school, and so on -- and at that 23 (A short break) 24 point he had to -- he handed over the headmastership and 24 (11.59 am) 25 he then went to help Portsmouth Priory in the States 25 MS KARMY-JONES: Father Leo, can you hear us all right?

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1 over their work and I think he was headmaster there. So 1 A. Yes, thank you. 2 that was what happened. 2 Q. I am just going to turn to what is paragraph 19 of your 3 Fort Augustus eventually did close and Father 3 statement. I am not going to ask you in great detail. 4 Francis Davidson came back to be, in fact, the Prior 4 You have told us a little bit about what's there 5 Administrator who had to preside over all that, which 5 already. 6 was a sad task for someone who had given advice that 6 Without going into details, first of all, I would 7 might have avoided it. But he did so with great 7 like to ask you about RC-F40. Is it right that there 8 diligence, as far as I could see. 8 had been, in respect of one child -- one child, RC-A60, 9 After that, he and I think one other member of 9 had suffered some bullying at the school, and -- 10 the Fort Augustus community joined Ampleforth Abbey. 10 A. RC-F40? 11 Q. Were you aware of any -- 11 Q. I'm looking at your paragraph 19(a), if it helps. 12 A. Others had the choice of becoming priests of the diocese 12 A. Ah, yes. Just a moment. Yes, I know -- I think I know 13 and some did that. 13 to whom you are referring. 14 Q. Were you aware of any circumstances where a monk accused 14 Q. Is it right that at school the child had -- there had 15 of abuse at Fort Augustus had been moved to Ampleforth 15 been allegations of bullying by other students, and much 16 or elsewhere? 16 later, in 2008, he told his sister that he had been 17 A. I'm sure none was moved to Ampleforth. The two names 17 repeatedly raped by a lay teacher. Do you recall that? 18 I mentioned -- I forget one name -- are the only two 18 A. No, because I wasn't there in 2008. I've found out 19 I know of at Ampleforth. I may be mistaken. There may 19 about it since, but at the time -- when I was 20 be another name or two. 20 headmaster, the allegations were all about bullying and 21 Q. In the circumstances in which Fort Augustus closed and 21 so on, and we looked carefully into those allegations, 22 Father Davidson left and eventually came to Ampleforth, 22 of course, and decided in the end they were without 23 in your view, was it appropriate that he should take up 23 merit. I had advice on this matter. 24 a role on the Safeguarding Committee? 24 Q. Who did you have advice from? 25 A. Entirely. He also worked on large parishes and he was 25 A. Our solicitors, and accessible for them was the house

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1 matron, who was a very efficient ex-RAF nurse. The 1 A. I am not sure. If you have that, that could be the 2 house matron had a very full logbook and the logbook 2 case. The question was, in the first place, what could 3 showed that some of the things being complained about 3 I do about it, because if you see in that letter, the 4 hadn't happened. I'm not saying that boys always get on 4 remoteness of the connection. I had also a few other 5 with each other, but there's further background on that 5 things which had to be done. 6 in the case of this boy whom you referred to, who -- he 6 Q. Do you recall, when you contacted Mr Molesworth 7 is dead, but you refer to him by code. 7 in April, any surprise on your part at how the matter 8 Q. Yes. He committed suicide in 2013. 8 was dealt with by social services? 9 A. That's right, yes. There's a whole complicated and sad 9 A. No. 10 family background to that. 10 Q. Were you surprised -- 11 Q. Thank you. At that time, that was, as you say, when the 11 A. We had already -- 12 allegations of sexual abuse were made, it was after your 12 Q. Were you surprised when he expressed concern that RC-F16 13 retirement, but you heard of it? 13 was due to go on a skiing trip with the boys from the 14 A. Yes, but it was well after my retirement, from 14 school? 15 St Benet's as well as from Ampleforth. It surprised me 15 A. Not surprised, but because the skiing trip was with 16 that the -- RC-A60's father had been looking for things 16 a number of adults, I thought it was low risk and to 17 which he could stir against Ampleforth. It surprised 17 take him straight out of that at that time when he was 18 me -- 18 leading it would have been, and in fact was, difficult. 19 Q. Can I ask you to pause there, for good reason. I have 19 But when Mr Molesworth insisted on the point, I gave way 20 a good reason, but could we just stop with that 20 at once. 21 recollection for a moment? All right? 21 Q. Did you consider taking him out of the ski trip when you 22 A. Yes. 22 first heard of the allegation in the January of that 23 Q. We will explain the reason to you later on, if that's 23 year? 24 okay. 24 A. The skiing trip was not in my mind. 25 Can we move then to -- you told us about RC-F16. 25 Q. Did Timothy Wright visit F16 and discuss his side of

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1 A. Yes. 1 the story with him? 2 Q. Do you remember a man called David Molesworth? 2 A. I think he did. 3 A. Yes. 3 Q. In paragraph 25 of your statement, you say: 4 Q. From North Yorkshire County Council? 4 "There is one specific ..." 5 A. I watched him give evidence. 5 I will wait until you have it. 6 Q. You will recall, then, that he was concerned about the 6 A. Yes. 7 case of RC-F16. That was when he came to the abbey and 7 Q. You say: 8 met with you in April 2002? 8 "There is one specific regret which I do have, and 9 A. Yes. 9 that is in the dealing with RC-F16, during the police 10 Q. Do you recall that he was concerned about the delay that 10 investigation and without my knowledge or agreement, 11 there had been in bringing the case of RC-F16 to the 11 Abbot Timothy Wright went to visit RC-A96 ..." 12 attention of the statutory authorities? 12 That's the complainant: 13 A. Yes, which I -- and I already explained the reason for 13 "... and listened to his side of the story. Whilst 14 that delay, and I think I would have told him at the 14 I am sure that this was done with the best intentions, 15 time. 15 it understandably gave the police the impression that 16 Q. Just so that it is clear, and I won't trouble you with 16 their investigation had been tampered with." 17 the documents unless you wish to see them, the letter 17 A. Yes. 18 informing you was dated 8 January of that year? 18 Q. Did you approve of Timothy Wright's action in going to 19 A. Correct. 19 visit RC-A96? 20 Q. It is at our bundles, for future reference, at 20 A. No, and nor did he tell me. 21 AAT000503-041. That's volume B, divider D27 at pages 41 21 Q. Did you tell him that you did not approve? 22 and 40. 22 A. It had already happened, and I then had to deal with the 23 A. That letter first informed me of a possible problem. 23 consequences. I can't recall any precise conversation 24 Q. You replied to that letter on 2 February 2002. Not 24 following it happening. 25 quite a month later. 25 The next paragraph refers to the difficulties that

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1 arose, because the police thought that there had been 1 Elizabeth Mann. How did you find her attitude towards 2 some kind of setup between the abbot and myself to close 2 Ampleforth and the monks of the community? 3 the matter down. Now, that was not the case. 3 A. I can only speak about the school. What I remember very 4 Q. Did that cause a degree of mistrust with the police that 4 clearly was her coming to see me and telling me she was 5 would last for some time? 5 concerned for the school and because of the situation of 6 A. Yes. This is getting towards the end of my time as 6 Father Piers Grant Ferris and another working in the 7 headmaster, but we had a meeting in which the chief 7 shop in the main hall, and I thought about it and I then 8 inspector, I think, or superintendent, in front of 8 consulted with Father Cuthbert Madden and Father 9 a number of other people, said he didn't trust me, 9 Gabriel Everitt, who were what we called third masters. 10 and -- well, I could see that this was the reason. 10 They were in fact very close to the management of 11 Q. Can you remember at all taking Timothy Wright to task 11 the school. 12 for his action? 12 Then I put together a letter in which I said, 13 A. I think I told him -- yes, I think -- I'm sure I did, 13 essentially -- maybe telescoping things, in which 14 yes. 14 I said, essentially, that in many schools they are 15 Q. Can you remember what his response was? 15 dotted around a town, and this was public space, not 16 A. Not exactly. But to the effect that, without it, we 16 just school space, and in another school, boys and girls 17 wouldn't have the facts. I don't think that that is 17 could have gone into any of these shops and there might 18 a sufficient explanation. 18 have been a paedophile there, or might not, and here 19 Q. May I turn now to -- there are some other cases, as you 19 this particular shop was something of a goldfish bowl 20 identified earlier, within the material, but I won't ask 20 and it was extremely unlikely that anything would go 21 you about those, as we have some information in the 21 wrong there at a public time of day when there were 22 material. 22 people milling around all the time. 23 May I turn now to your first contact with Elizabeth 23 That was essentially what I put to her, and she then 24 and Ruth Mann. 24 came back to me and said -- I remember her saying it, 25 A. Yes. 25 I was rather surprised, "That was a brilliant letter,

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1 Q. Why did Elizabeth Mann become involved with Ampleforth, 1 Father", and I thought, "Okay, that's finished that 2 as far as you are aware? 2 one", but of course it hadn't, and I think Abbot Timothy 3 A. Abbot Timothy invited her and wanted -- and asked her 3 declined to take her advice. 4 for advice. 4 Q. Do you know -- we will come to look at letters in 5 Q. What about? 5 a minute, but do you now see any difference between 6 A. I think the historic cases, of which he was by then 6 a shop on the site of the abbey and the monastery and 7 aware. 7 a shop within a village, in terms of 8 Q. Was he asking her to carry out psychological assessments 8 the responsibilities that there are for safeguarding? 9 of monks who were still on the premises? 9 A. I think I do, but that wasn't a question of 10 A. I am not sure. There was something to that effect, 10 the responsibility for safeguarding. Obviously you have 11 I think. There are several pages in the bundle 11 a responsibility for safeguarding within the place, but 12 referring to -- I think to Elizabeth Mann. 12 it was actually public space, is the point I was making. 13 Q. Just going from your recollection and what you were told 13 Guests, visitors, boys, girls, could all be there and at 14 at the time, was it also to do with assessments of monks 14 the same time of day too. 15 who were Ampleforth monks but may have gone out to work 15 Q. Before we go to some of those letters, you said that 16 in other areas of the community and on parishes? 16 Abbot Timothy didn't take Elizabeth Mann's advice. What 17 A. I really don't know that sort of detail, I'm afraid. 17 was his relationship with Elizabeth Mann like, as far as 18 There is more interchange between Elizabeth Mann and 18 you were able to observe? 19 myself in the bundle than I have remembered. But in 19 A. I wasn't able to observe. I was not part of that 20 general terms, I would say that I had a cooperative 20 exchange. 21 relationship with her. 21 Q. Were you part of any exchange between Timothy Wright and 22 Q. What about Ruth Mann? Did you have any involvement with 22 Elizabeth Mann? 23 Ruth Mann? 23 A. Well, you have that record of emails, and so on, and 24 A. I don't think I met her, subject to correction. 24 I can't tell you offhand whether -- which were copied 25 Q. You said you had a cooperative relationship with 25 and which were not.

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1 Q. Can you remember anything to help the chair and the 1 Q. She expressed her concerns to you, first of all: 2 panel about the relationship between Timothy Wright and 2 "That there was as yet no child protection policy 3 Elizabeth Mann? 3 for the monastery, which was thereby a problem for the 4 A. As I say, I think he refused to take her advice. 4 school when monks were employed in teaching or in 5 I think, in consequence, what the advice exactly was, 5 ancillary activities." 6 I do not know. The consequence was that two monks, 6 A. Well, I don't think it was a problem for the school 7 Piers Grant Ferris and -- 7 because the child protection policy in the school 8 Q. Don't worry. Two monks. 8 applied to monks teaching in the school. I think it was 9 A. I'm just trying to not name -- 9 a problem for the monastery. 10 Q. That's all right. 10 Q. Then she went on to the specific case of Father Piers 11 A. Two monks were then charged and imprisoned as a result. 11 and "the clear recommendations of his risk assessment 12 Now, whether there would have been another way of 12 were not being implemented. Indeed, in his appointment 13 dealing with that, I simply do not know, but that is 13 to the school shop, the recommendations were being 14 what actually happened. 14 flouted." 15 Q. Do you think that there should have been another way of 15 Were you aware of the recommendations that had been 16 dealing with that? 16 made in his risk assessment? 17 A. I would have great respect for any advice that 17 A. No. 18 Elizabeth Mann gave the abbot. In other words, I don't 18 Q. She also mentioned -- 19 know whether there was another way. I do not know. 19 A. I think Abbot Timothy declined to share those. 20 Q. Just turning -- 20 Q. She went on to say that in the case of F27, "the fact 21 A. It seems to me it is difficult to see another way. 21 that he had been removed from the school as a result of 22 Q. Can I ask you to take up volume 3 at divider 47, page 1. 22 an allegation was being ignored, as were the risks from 23 It is EMA000225_001. 23 his subsequent more recent clearly stated intention to 24 A. Yes. 24 [her] to do as he pleased". It then goes on to say: 25 Q. It is a note that Elizabeth Mann drew up of a meeting 25 "The headmaster heard my concerns and said that he

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1 she had with you on 24 March 2003 in your study, where 1 had been worried for some time about the situation of 2 she set out her concerns about the inappropriateness of 2 Father Piers and F27 having been appointed to the school 3 Father Piers and F27 being appointed to the school tuck 3 shop by the abbot." 4 or stationery bookshop? 4 Had you been concerned? 5 A. No, not stationery. They were separate places. This -- 5 A. Yes. You see, it is not the school shop. It was a shop 6 and not tuck either. This shop was some books and 6 in a public space and so the appointments in there would 7 devout objects, and so on, and that was one place. 7 be from the abbot or delegated by the abbot to someone. 8 Stationery was another place and tuck was another place. 8 Q. Had you been concerned, Father Leo? 9 "Tuck" is not actually a word at Ampleforth. 9 A. Had I been concerned? I was concerned that -- I was 10 Q. As we understand it, the shop in which Father Piers and 10 certainly concerned by what I knew about Father Piers' 11 F27 were appointed to work was a gift shop which carried 11 past, and I was concerned about the -- yes, you could 12 some religious material in the centre of the main hall; 12 say I was concerned. But because it was open, I wasn't 13 is that right? 13 as concerned as I would have been if it was somewhere 14 A. Yes. 14 else private. 15 Q. Which in time came to be glazed on all sides? 15 Q. Do you agree with her note that says that you had been 16 A. It was always glazed. 16 worried for some time about the situation of them being 17 Q. Hence your reference to it being a goldfish bowl? 17 appointed to the shop? 18 A. Yes. 18 A. Yes, broadly speaking, but I could see it was 19 Q. She set out in this meeting her concerns. If we look 19 defensible. 20 towards the bottom, four paragraphs up, it says: 20 Q. She suggested that she could write to the abbot, and her 21 "The headmaster agreed to a meeting with me on the 21 note is that you were very concerned when she expressed 22 condition that he would not be required by me to keep 22 this option, this option being that she could write to 23 the contents of the meeting wholly confidential ..." 23 the abbot saying if the two monks were not removed from 24 Yes? 24 the shop immediately, then she would have to report the 25 A. Yes. I wanted to be able to act if necessary. 25 situation to the external authorities?

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1 A. Yes. 1 one in particular, that concerning -- I'm sorry. 2 Q. Why were you concerned about her writing to the abbot in 2 Q. It's all right. She wrote to you further about her 3 those terms? 3 concerns on 9 April 2003. This is NYC000005_079. It is 4 A. Well, largely because I thought that if she wrote in 4 tab C, divider 42 at page 79. 5 that way, not that she had no right to do so, she did, 5 A. 09/04/03. Date? 6 but to proceed in that way would certainly end the 6 Q. 9 April 2003. A letter to you. Have you got it? 7 relationship with the abbot, and of course things would 7 A. I have it, yes. 8 then proceed publicly, as in the end they did. But, you 8 Q. Just taking it very briefly, but it summarised the 9 see, I can't speak for Elizabeth Mann's doings with the 9 meeting that she'd had with you on 22 April, referred to 10 abbot. I tried to give her fair support in her concern 10 the requirements of the Nolan Report? 11 for the best for the school. 11 A. Sorry, do you mean 22 March? This was 9 April. 12 Q. Can I ask you then about your doings with the abbot, 12 Q. Yes, in the first paragraph, it says: 13 because at the bottom of the paragraph, the same 13 "I write to summarise the content of my meeting with 14 paragraph, there is a line: 14 you on 22 April." 15 "He described the difficulties he had experienced in 15 A. Well, I thought that must be a mistake because the 16 other cases of allegations of abuse by the school staff, 16 letter is dated 9 April, so the 22nd hadn't happened. 17 and the particular problems which arose for him when the 17 Q. No, I take your point. It is plainly a typing error. 18 abbot had intervened unilaterally without informing him 18 But she's referring to an earlier meeting? 19 what he was doing." 19 A. That's fine. But -- okay. 20 Was that a problem that you'd had? 20 Q. She's setting out the discussions which appear to relate 21 A. That is one case to which we have already referred, when 21 to the discussions in the note that I showed you 22 he went to see the victim of RC-F16, and I have already 22 a moment ago. Would you agree? 23 spoken about that. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Thank you. You asked her whether it would be 24 Q. Over the page, she sets out her criticism of 25 satisfactory for Father Piers and F27 to consider in 25 Father Piers and RC-F27 working in the shop?

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1 their present roles if someone was with them all the 1 A. Yes. 2 time, and you said it was very difficult to know what 2 Q. And the fact that the abbot told her that he did not 3 work could be given to occupy these men under the 3 have a child protection policy for the monks of 4 restrictions of the recommendation of their risk 4 the monastery and saw no need for such, which she 5 assessment? 5 regrets? 6 A. Yes. 6 A. Yes, and so do I. 7 Q. She told you that the school and the parents had rights 7 Q. So you agree with that passage where she says: 8 and described that if the situation was perpetuated, the 8 "In light of the known risk presented by these two 9 parents would not have had the opportunity to give their 9 monks, the failure to protect children from that risk 10 informed consent to what was the employment of sex 10 appears to be inexcusable and indefensible." 11 offenders in a situation which could be used to groom 11 A. Hang on, which paragraph is that? 12 boys, and she went on, and at the conclusion, when she 12 Q. The second paragraph down. Having referred to the 13 said the school would be liable in its disregard of 13 absence of a child protection policy for the monastery, 14 the risk assessment recommendations, and the cumulative 14 she says, halfway through that paragraph: 15 effect of this following upon the several recent 15 "I believe it to be inconceivable that any school, 16 scandals already known to the public would be highly 16 whether in the state or independent sector, should 17 damaging to the reputation of the school, the headmaster 17 ignore the need for child protection and for the safe 18 agreed, and said that the cumulative effect was 18 practices which flow from a child protection policy. In 19 a serious consideration for him. Do you recall the 19 the light of the known risk presented by these two 20 conversation ending like that? 20 monks, the failure to protect children from that risk 21 A. Not exactly, no, but I would accept the record. We are 21 appears to be inexcusable and indefensible." 22 talking about the two cases I dealt with in the '90s, 22 She goes on to say: 23 these two cases. There wasn't a lot of this in that 23 "It is apposite to note that the parents of the boys 24 period, I do not think -- no, there were one or two 24 in the school have not been given the opportunity to 25 other -- there were other cases which never got further, 25 give their informed consent that monks who have admitted

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1 to sexual offences in the school should be subsequently 1 A. Yes. 2 in contact with the boys in any way." 2 Q. You then go on to say: 3 A. Well, when you've had all the evidence that this letter 3 "Since I raised the concerns of which you informed 4 provided -- remember, I did not know the risk 4 me, I have been given an account of proper and 5 assessments, I knew the previous problems, and with that 5 sufficient steps taken by Father Abbot, with the help of 6 together, I would have thought I would have to say that 6 Father Prior as the community's child protection 7 I agree with her. 7 coordinator." 8 Q. Do you think it was wrong for you and the other members 8 You then say: 9 of the community not to be told of the risk assessments 9 "I am not clear how you have a responsibility 10 and the issues there were with those two monks? 10 regarding these historic cases, because others carried 11 A. I think it should be on the basis of "need to know", and 11 out the risk assessments. Father Abbot tells me that 12 clearly the headmaster did need to know, and I would 12 both RC-F27 and Father Piers Grant Ferris are in 13 imagine the prior needed to know. But you don't have 13 continuing contact with psychiatrists, who are 14 to -- I could imagine some event which would require 14 ordinarily obliged by the ethics of the profession to 15 briefing of the entire community. 15 provide information if it is their view that harm is 16 Q. If you turn in the same divider to page 82, there's the 16 threatened to others, especially children. He has not 17 reply, what seems to be a reply, a letter from you, 17 been so informed, and it appears that there might be 18 dated 13 May 2003. 18 professional disagreement with the risk assessments ..." 19 A. We haven't found 82 yet. 19 You said: 20 Q. It is two pages after that document you were just 20 "I am not in a position to evaluate such 21 looking at. 21 disagreement. Legal advice indicates that I do not have 22 A. Oh. 22 a right to see risk assessments concerning anyone who is 23 Q. Behind divider 42. 23 not in employment or proposed for employment or 24 A. Oh, 082. Yes, thank you, I have it. 24 voluntary work in the school." 25 Q. Have you had a chance to look at that? Do you remember 25 You went on to say:

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1 seeing that before you came to give evidence this 1 "In these circumstances, I would judge it acceptable 2 morning? 2 and in accord with my own duty of care that these 3 A. I had not read it fully. I glanced at it. I only had 3 brethren should be able to work with others in the abbey 4 time to see there was much more extensive correspondence 4 shop, something of a goldfish bowl situated in the main 5 with Elizabeth Mann than I remembered. 5 hall, which is open territory for visitors, guests and 6 Q. Yes. You told us earlier that you had a meeting with 6 students. For sale are books, stationery and objects of 7 Father Cuthbert Madden and one other -- 7 piety. The monks concerned do not enter the school." 8 A. Yes. 8 Do you agree that that was something of a change in 9 Q. -- third master? 9 your attitude to Elizabeth Mann and what she had been 10 A. Yes. 10 speaking to you about? 11 Q. Who was the other third master again? 11 A. No. I mean, I appreciated her concern. 12 A. My successor, Father Gabriel Everitt. 12 Q. You'd previously indicated that you had been concerned 13 Q. Did you write this letter after that meeting? 13 for some time about the position of Father Piers and F27 14 A. Oh, yes, certainly, the meeting would have happened 14 in the shop, and in this letter you judge it acceptable 15 earlier. I can't give you an exact timeline. 15 that they should continue there. What had happened in 16 Q. So this is 13 May. You thank Elizabeth for the 16 between -- 17 telephone calls and her emails. You tell her it has 17 A. I don't think anything had happened, that I can think 18 only been possible to arrange a meeting between the 18 of. 19 abbot, the prior and yourself, and that you had informed 19 The question was that Abbot Timothy wanted these two 20 the abbot of your request that the two monks concerned 20 men to have something to do in the shop, and the easiest 21 be temporarily withdrawn from the shop to allow the 21 thing, and I did suggest it at some point, was that they 22 parties in this confused situation to come to agreed 22 should be withdrawn so that matters could be considered. 23 conclusions, and also of your recommendation that "As 23 He was not willing to do that. 24 I have a duty of care for students, I should be informed 24 Q. Had pressure been put upon you at any stage to change 25 of the risk assessments". 25 your stance?

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1 A. In what way? 1 certainly known about it in the last year or two years, 2 Q. Had -- 2 but I can see the way in which the governance of 3 A. He knew my view was that they should be withdrawn, as 3 Ampleforth College has developed, in a way which seems 4 you see in the previous note. 4 to me altogether for the good. 5 Q. Why did you change your view in this letter, then, to 5 Q. Do you remember Detective Chief Inspector Honeysett? 6 say you judge it acceptable that they should remain? 6 A. Yes. That was the meeting subsequent to RC-F16's 7 A. Well, I'd been -- now by this time, I knew something 7 withdrawal and that was the meeting at which I think, if 8 more about the risk assessment, and so on, and I was 8 I recall rightly, he said he didn't trust me. 9 trying to work with everyone concerned. If it was 9 Q. Yes. It was going back a little, in June 2002. He was 10 a point of absolute principle with the abbot, then 10 critical of your handling of the matter? 11 because it was a very visible place, I thought, well, we 11 A. He said he didn't trust me, and it turned out because, 12 can probably make it work, but I think I may have been 12 as we have already said, Abbot Timothy, which I did not 13 wrong about that. 13 know at the time, had been to see the victim himself. 14 Q. In your view now, was there any failure, or potential 14 Q. Throughout this difficult period, what assistance, what 15 failure, in safeguarding in the way in which those two 15 guidance or advice, did you get from the wider English 16 monks were being dealt with? 16 Benedictine Congregation? 17 A. I think where they were, not in the school but in public 17 A. None. 18 space, the risks of failure were extremely low, and you 18 Q. Did you seek any advice from them, or from the 19 cannot altogether eliminate risk. 19 Abbot President? 20 Q. In due course, Elizabeth Mann and Ruth Mann did come to 20 A. No, the Abbot President is, or was then, a canon lawyer, 21 disclose information about Father Piers and F27 to the 21 but this canon law does not apply here. The advice 22 authorities. 22 I needed was legal advice, which I had very good legal 23 A. Yes. 23 advice, and advice concerning public affairs and the 24 Q. What effect did that have on the monastery and the 24 input which Elizabeth Mann herself had been able to 25 school? 25 give.

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1 A. This happened, I think -- I'm not quite sure of 1 Q. Help us with why canon law doesn't apply? 2 the dates, but I think I was probably already at 2 A. Well, canon law is the law of the church. Now, it would 3 St Benet's, or else having some time off. 3 apply to -- suppose you have a priest who has sexually 4 Q. Can you remember anything about that? It wasn't in fact 4 abused a boy. There are then consequences in canon law, 5 long after this. 5 apart from the consequences in criminal law, and such 6 A. It was -- in other words, I was still headmaster. 6 people are laicized, and in that case of Father Piers, 7 Q. Yes, I think so. We will check the date. It is within 7 that is what was done, in the end. 8 the documentation. I will check it. But do you, 8 Q. What were the main safeguarding challenges or 9 yourself, remember anything about what happened after 9 difficulties that Ampleforth faced during your time as 10 the disclosure was made? 10 headmaster? 11 A. Not much. I knew -- I mean, I do know -- I did know 11 A. Well, summing it up, one, to start developing a policy 12 that they were charged and went to court. But at that 12 where there hadn't been one; secondly, the painful duty 13 point, it was out of my hands completely. 13 to confront two fellow members of the community over 14 Q. Do you remember the police becoming involved and coming 14 their behaviour and, tangentially, on one or two other 15 for meetings at the school? 15 occasions as well, which I can't list immediately. 16 A. At this time? No. Certainly later on, after I was 16 Q. In your view, looking back -- 17 headmaster, Operation Ellipse. The essential point 17 A. If you are talking about the challenges I faced all 18 about all this is that Abbot Cuthbert finally got all 18 round, there's a lot more, but those are the specific 19 the proper measures in place in the community, as well 19 challenges concerning safeguarding. 20 as revising those for the school. That was very 20 Q. Well, help us with what the challenges all round were, 21 important. 21 in terms of safeguarding? Not just for you, but for 22 Q. Were you still there when that happened? 22 Ampleforth as a monastic community, in your view? 23 A. No, I was already in Oxford. 23 A. No, I can't speak as a monastic community, that's 24 Q. So how do you know that? 24 a broader -- I wasn't abbot. In terms of the school, 25 A. I was sufficiently in touch with affairs, and I've 25 the challenges were, first of all, that the confidence

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1 had been lost in the school, the numbers were going down 1 A. Dr Seymour Spencer, a distinguished psychiatrist, friend 2 badly, some of the buildings were badly in need of 2 of Ampleforth, head or former head of the Warneford in 3 replacement, and so on, and the question of discipline 3 Oxford, came to see me and told me that what I had done 4 in the school and the working together by housemasters 4 was totally unnecessary, not wanted by the parents at 5 was something else which needed attention. All those 5 all. I had no need to. He said, "I can see I've shaken 6 things in the next few years we were able to improve. 6 you". Well, he had, given the man he was. So I had to 7 Exam results improved very sharply, we were finally able 7 think about it, and I thought about it, and I thought he 8 to go -- to fundraise and had spent £20 million by the 8 was wrong, but the trouble is, he also told everyone 9 time I stopped by headmaster, and the school seemed to 9 else, and so that meant successive difficulties for me 10 me a better place. The last good thing I did was to 10 in the community, being regarded as someone who had 11 bring in girls, because in the world as it is today, it 11 acted unnecessarily against the brethren. 12 is better that they be educated together. I could 12 Father Bernard Green had a lot of context, 13 expand on that a lot, but I don't think you need it. 13 especially on the Ampleforth Lourdes pilgrimage and 14 Q. In your view, at the time these events took place, and 14 there were those on that pilgrimage that I know took 15 I don't just refer to Piers Grant Ferris or to RC-F18 or 15 a lasting criticism of my stance. 16 27 or 29, but to all the allegations made during your 16 Q. So that was in respect of what you did about 17 time as headmaster, was Ampleforth's safeguarding 17 Bernard Green? 18 response adequate, in your view? 18 A. Well, he was in the school, yes. 19 A. Yes. It could always look to improvement. The fact is, 19 Q. So when you had the conversation, just so we can be 20 we dealt with those cases that came up and dealt with 20 clear, with Dr Spencer, that was -- or Seymour Spencer, 21 them properly. 21 that was about Bernard Green, in 1995? 22 Q. I am going to turn to some questions that come from 22 A. Precisely. Very soon after I had done what I did. 23 others, if I may. In 2007, at a point when you were no 23 Q. Did that follow you throughout your time as headmaster? 24 longer in your post, Monsignor David Hogan, during the 24 A. I think it's probably fair to say that, although, of 25 preliminary meeting of Ampleforth's Child Protection 25 course, there were other things, and other very good

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1 Commission, said: 1 things, but that it did rather dog my steps. 2 "One of the problems in the past was that in the 2 Q. We know that Dr Seymour Spencer was brought in to do 3 community there was no awareness of child protection 3 another assessment of Piers Grant Ferris after Ruth Mann 4 issues, no accountability to the outside world and to 4 did her assessment. What was your view of 5 the wider church." 5 Seymour Spencer after that conversation that you had 6 Do you agree with that assessment? 6 with him? 7 A. Broadly, yes. That was one of the things I had to start 7 A. I thought he was out of date, but I did not know he'd 8 changing. 8 been brought in to do a risk assessment. 9 Q. Can you make any suggestion as to how there could be 9 Q. It disagreed with that of Ruth Mann. How old was he 10 better accountability? 10 when you saw him in 1995, roughly? 11 A. Well, the structures in place now, put in place by 11 A. I'm not sure. Certainly over 60, which is not 12 Abbot Cuthbert. 12 necessarily a criticism. 13 Q. Abbot Cuthbert was elected in 2006. From your 13 Q. No. Many of us agree. I am just going to ask you about 14 experience of Ampleforth, was there resistance to 14 one last topic, and very shortly. You, I think, may 15 attempts by Abbot Cuthbert to change the approach of 15 have heard -- again, reference to no names, please, and, 16 the community and college to safeguarding? 16 please, no reference to the parish in which you work. 17 A. I think there were certainly individuals, but I can't 17 But you may have heard the evidence of A30 given to us 18 really say more than that. I wasn't at Ampleforth at 18 at some stage last week, a young woman, who was abused 19 the time. My view is that he did what was very much 19 by a man called Dara De Cogan. He pleaded guilty to 20 needed. 20 that abuse in February 2017 and was sentenced 21 May I just go back? The first case, and I don't 21 in March 2017. I think you didn't know her from the 22 think we have spoken of this, but after I had done it 22 school? 23 all, Dr Seymour Spencer -- I've not spoken of him, have 23 A. No. 24 I? 24 Q. But you know her through your parish; is that right? 25 Q. No, you haven't. We know of his name. 25 A. I have met her.

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1 Q. Did you express to her, no doubt in intended kindness, 1 Operation Ellipse? 2 the view that the problem is that a school can take 2 A. Yes. 3 measures on child protection, but if you have a cunning 3 Q. That began in July 2003, following the disclosures made 4 perpetrator, they will always find a way? 4 by Ruth and Elizabeth Mann; is that right? 5 A. I remember some phrase of that sort; whether "always", 5 A. Yes. 6 I wouldn't be sure. But the point I'm making is 6 Q. The formal investigation beginning in January 2004? 7 a truism: these people find a way, as Dara De Cogan did, 7 A. Yes. 8 even though by that time there were good child 8 Q. Before Operation Ellipse, had you any other involvement 9 protection policies in place and the staff were aware of 9 with Ampleforth? 10 dangers. 10 A. I had, on two occasions. 11 Q. Finally, and with our thanks, is there anything that you 11 Q. Help us with what those were and when? 12 would wish to add by way of comment or assistance or 12 A. The first occasion that I had -- not direct contact with 13 recommendation to this chair and panel about any 13 Ampleforth, but I was the Crown Commander for the 14 safeguarding issues over your time or improvements for 14 Eastern Area in 1995 when an incident occurred at the 15 the future? 15 college, and I became aware of that when 16 A. On that particular case, I'd want to say that the 16 Father Bernard Green was arrested. 17 witness did not know of my own experience in dealing 17 Q. So that was the Bernard Green case, which Detective 18 with these things, and underrated my knowledge. To say 18 Sergeant Hartnett dealt with as officer in the case? 19 that I was naive I think is really not quite apt. 19 A. That's correct. 20 In general terms, one has to echo again the profound 20 Q. And were you aware of Detective Sergeant Hartnett's 21 sorrow about wrong done, and I am actually quite proud 21 concerns over how Ampleforth dealt with that matter? 22 of what I did not just for the school in general, but in 22 A. I was. 23 making sure these cases were in fact, for the first 23 Q. The second occasion, was that in respect of RC-F18? 24 time, dealt with properly, formally and legally. 24 A. Yes -- no. No, that's not correct, sorry. The second 25 Q. Thank you very much. 25 occasion was in relation to RC-F16.

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1 A. Thank you. 1 Q. As a result of concerns raised there, what was your 2 MS KARMY-JONES: Thank you very much for your time and your 2 involvement with Ampleforth? 3 assistance. 3 A. Again, I was the Crown Commander for the area. 4 THE CHAIR: We have no questions, but thank you very much, 4 A complaint had been made in relation to an incident at 5 Father Leo, for your evidence today. 5 Ampleforth. It was being dealt with by DI Matthews. 6 (The witness withdrew) 6 I became aware of circumstances in which the complainant 7 MS KARMY-JONES: Is that a suitable moment? 7 declined to actually be interviewed and have contact 8 THE CHAIR: Thank you. We will return at 2.00 pm. 8 with the police. 9 (12.56 pm) 9 Q. Can you remember when that was? 10 (The short adjournment) 10 A. When I became aware of it or when ...? I think there 11 (2.00 pm) 11 was also some contact with social services at the same 12 MS KARMY-JONES: Chair, members of the panel, the next 12 time in relation to what had actually happened. 13 witness is Mr Barry Honeysett, who is in the witness 13 Q. Can I ask you to look at your bundle volume 1 behind B2. 14 box. 14 A. Yes. 15 MR BARRY HONEYSETT (affirmed) 15 Q. There was a meeting on 25 June 2002, a multi-agency 16 Examination by MS KARMY-JONES 16 meeting, it seems, because David Molesworth and 17 MS KARMY-JONES: It is Mr Barry Honeysett, is it? 17 Margaret Croft were there, together with you and 18 A. It is. 18 Detective Inspector Matthews? 19 Q. Mr Honeysett, you set out your background and experience 19 A. That's correct. 20 in your statement. In summary, you joined the police in 20 Q. Also present was the headmaster, then Leo Chamberlain, 21 1975? 21 the third master Father Gabriel, Gerald Guthrie the 22 A. That's correct. 22 housemaster, a ciphered individual RC-F18, the subprior 23 Q. Retiring in 2006 as detective superintendent? 23 who was there on behalf of the abbot. Do you remember 24 A. That's correct. 24 saying in that meeting at page 2 that you did not trust 25 Q. You were the senior investigating officer in 25 Ampleforth?

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1 A. Yes, I did. That was correct. 1 social services were contacted first. So from that 2 Q. Had you felt that police had been excluded from the 2 point of view, it was important that they came to us at 3 investigation in respect of F16? 3 an early stage. 4 A. Yes. It was -- the issue was largely around the delay 4 Q. Did you see the information that Father Leo had on the 5 in the police becoming involved. 5 matter in January 2002? 6 Q. How did Leo Chamberlain respond to that suggestion? 6 A. I don't think we had the full information. We had an 7 A. He didn't accept that that was -- that there was 7 account as to what had actually been said and done. But 8 a problem with the delay. His approach was that they 8 I think it's only recently, in preparation for these 9 had become aware of the incident through a third party, 9 documents -- for this hearing that the extent of the 10 that that did not amount to a disclosure, and therefore 10 contacts that they had came to my knowledge. 11 they then made enquiries themselves with other members 11 Q. In your view, was the amount of information they had 12 of the Ampleforth community and eventually the victim -- 12 in January 2002 sufficient to properly bring it to the 13 I apologise. I don't have the ciphers for other than 13 attention of police? 14 the priest, and my knowledge of all of these people is 14 A. They'd heard from a third party and I think the initial 15 by name, so I'd prefer to refer to them as "victims", if 15 step was that they contacted other people to find out 16 that's okay. 16 whether or not they'd heard -- they obviously had -- 17 Q. Yes, of course. 17 they knew the group of friends and they had some 18 A. So a direct approach had been made by Ampleforth staff 18 contact. They had had it confirmed that this had been 19 to the victim, which I thought was inappropriate. 19 said. I think, at that stage, that would have been the 20 Q. Why did you think it was inappropriate? 20 appropriate stage to contact the statutory authorities. 21 A. I thought it was inappropriate because, throughout the 21 Q. Why did their having contacted other individuals cause 22 meeting, the headmaster had referred to Nolan; he 22 you concern? 23 clearly had an understanding of what the Nolan Report 23 A. It was almost like they were starting to make an enquiry 24 had asked or set out was the right approach to take, and 24 into it themselves, which, in my view, was not their 25 that, in relation to this particular matter, they had 25 role but was our role. Working Together was something

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1 not complied. Whilst they knew about Nolan, they hadn't 1 that we had developed quite a lot in terms of 2 really followed a number of the principles that it laid 2 social services and the police and we would have been 3 down. 3 happy to have worked with Ampleforth as well as part of 4 Q. We heard earlier that Abbot Timothy had in fact gone to 4 that, but I think it was important at that stage 5 see the complainant. Were you aware of that? 5 because, after that, people had already been spoken to 6 A. I'm not sure. I knew somebody had gone to see -- 6 and of course accounts can be influenced by those 7 I thought it was actually one of the priests that had 7 conversations. 8 made the initial contact. I was aware that they had had 8 Q. Did you have any other dealings with Ampleforth after 9 contact, that they had been to see the victim, and that 9 that matter before Elizabeth and Ruth Mann's 10 subsequently the victim had indicated that he would not 10 disclosures? 11 make a formal complaint and would not provide 11 A. I don't think so, no. 12 a statement to the police. I think even going to the 12 Q. So their disclosures came in July 2003. Were you 13 extent during the discussions that took place 13 immediately involved at that stage or was it a little 14 subsequently with David Molesworth and I think at one 14 time before police were informed? 15 time I think Debbie Matthews did have some contact, 15 A. I think social services were the initial point of 16 because there were a couple of appointments made to 16 contact for Elizabeth Mann and we were contacted shortly 17 actually go down and -- no, sorry, that's in connection 17 afterwards by David Molesworth and the social services 18 with something else. 18 team and from then on we worked together on the matter. 19 At that stage, they'd been to see him and he 19 Q. How did you go about approaching Ampleforth? 20 declined to contact us at all. 20 A. I think we arranged to have a meeting with them to 21 Q. How should things have been done, in your view? 21 discuss the information that they had got. 22 A. Well, in my view, it should have been brought to the 22 Q. What was your view of the way that Ampleforth was 23 statutory agencies at the earliest stage. That stage 23 approaching disclosure to the authorities at this stage? 24 would have been, I think, in January 2002. 24 A. Once again, when I became aware of the reasons why 25 By April 2002, we were being informed about it. I think 25 Elizabeth Mann had approached social services, which was

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1 largely that she'd been in contact with Ampleforth and 1 passed to you perhaps at the abbey: 2 had made requests as a result of the assessments that 2 "Gentlemen. 3 she'd done, and that no action was being taken, that 3 "Father Prior [who at that time was 4 obviously was a serious concern. 4 George Corrie] ..." 5 Q. How did Ampleforth respond to the suggestions that they 5 A. That's correct. 6 were failing in their safeguarding duties? 6 Q. "... has briefed me on your meeting at Ryedale House on 7 A. Abbot Timothy's approach to this was that these were 7 29 July. My first reaction is one of considerable 8 confidential matters; that the priests involved were not 8 dismay. I start, therefore, with an apology for any 9 a part of the school; and that he didn't think that this 9 fault on my part in the breakdown of trust between 10 was a matter for disclosure. 10 myself, Abbot of Ampleforth, and the statutory 11 Q. You having been to Ampleforth on a number of occasions 11 authorities you represent. That is not good for child 12 across the years, what was your view of that approach? 12 protection, nor for our communities, nor for our schools 13 A. Again, I think this was one of the areas where we -- 13 and all concerned with them. So I pledge, without 14 I don't think Abbot Timothy was applying the principles 14 reservation, to put in place procedures to rebuild that 15 of Nolan as we understood them, certainly. This was 15 trust. 16 a confidential matter. It wasn't a confessional matter. 16 "I note that this is the first time anyone has 17 The fact that children were at risk because two priests 17 communicated to me about such a breakdown in trust, and 18 were still in and around the school or the communities, 18 I note, too, the role the Manns (mother and daughter) 19 there weren't proper risk measures in place, and in 19 seemed to have played in this. I note, too, that there 20 terms of that, the principle of paramountcy for child 20 have been complaints, rumours, suspicions which have 21 welfare was not to the fore; that much of what 21 come to you about members of the monastic community. 22 Abbot Timothy was talking about in relation to the 22 Am I not right to be a little shaken that no-one from 23 priests was about their rights and about looking after 23 any of your offices has made any approach to me, or 24 themselves, the priests, which I accept, as the abbot, 24 through my child protection coordinator (Very Reverend 25 was part of his role, but obviously, in this particular 25 PG Corrie, Prior) to seek further information or

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1 case, there seemed to be a decision to make between 1 clarification? Surely if we are both committed to the 2 those two roles, and I think he was on the wrong side of 2 highest standards of child protection, the communication 3 that decision. 3 must be two way?" 4 Q. Did he say anything about the protection of children in 4 What do you say about that? 5 that balancing exercise? 5 A. I'm surprised. There obviously had been contact -- 6 A. I can't recall specifically. I don't know if you want 6 I personally had had contact -- with the community on 7 me to move on to the letter that we received at a later 7 previous occasions, and there had been a meeting in July 8 stage now? 8 where we had been asking for information. This whole 9 Q. We can move on to that. The letter from Abbot Timothy 9 matter had come about because the information wasn't 10 is at volume 3A, tab 18, page 1, reference 10 being provided. 11 NYP000433_001. Volume 13A, sorry. 11 In terms of not speaking directly to Abbot Timothy, 12 Chair, you may remember that this is something that 12 I don't believe we had spoken directly to Abbot Timothy 13 was referred to in earlier evidence by Mr Molesworth. 13 before, but that was because the representatives at 14 I may take the opportunity now to read it out because it 14 Ampleforth that had attended meetings on previous 15 reflects Abbot Timothy's views at a rather key time. 15 occasions had either been the headmaster or 16 This was the letter on 4 August that was sent to 16 Father George. 17 you, Stephen Sharpe and David Molesworth? 17 Q. Did you assume that what was said in other meetings had 18 A. That's correct. 18 been passed on by his representatives to him? 19 Q. Delivered by hand. Is it right you also had a meeting 19 A. Absolutely. Again, whilst individual pieces of 20 that day? Do you remember? 20 information -- it is very clear from, again, documents 21 A. I think that's correct. I've been back through the -- 21 that have only recently come to light that there was 22 I can't find a record of the meeting, but I thought that 22 considerable communication within the community about 23 there had been a meeting that day with Ampleforth. 23 what was happening. 24 Q. I will read it out. We may pause as we go. Dated 24 Q. We saw the meeting of 25 June 2002, where you had 25 4 August 2003. By hand, so it would appear to have been 25 indicated there was a lack of trust, so a year or so

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1 earlier? 1 course I am not going to stand in the way of the law, 2 A. Yes. 2 when directed at one of my brethren, clearly guilty. 3 Q. "So let me start by seeking your advice about some key 3 But I will defend him in any way I can. On the other 4 issues. Our trust can only be built on genuine 4 hand, I am not going to force anyone to incriminate 5 understanding of what Ampleforth represents, and I hope 5 himself. Fine if he comes to me and says: 6 you will be patient with me while I try and do this. 6 'Father Abbot, I have done something seriously wrong, 7 Monasteries are difficult places to understand, I joke 7 I have abused a child and I need to own up and take the 8 about this frequently with the many lay people I meet, 8 consequences'. More likely, I will get a letter: 9 but at this moment I hope you will find it useful if 9 'Father X abused my son, on this day, in that place, 10 I offer some thoughts about how we work. There are only 10 three years ago'. I will make enquiries to see if the 11 240 Benedictine communities in the world, we are one of 11 person was in that place at that time, and if so, I give 12 the largest. 12 the letter to the child protection coordinator, and he 13 "The Abbot and the Monastic Community. 13 will deal with it in the agreed way. If not, I still 14 "People join monasteries to seek God in a dedicated 14 hand the letter to the child protection coordinator, who 15 and disciplined way. They realise that they are too 15 may make his own enquiries." 16 weak to do this on their own, they need the framework of 16 Have you any observations about that, Mr Honeysett? 17 what St Benedict calls a 'school for the Lord's 17 A. I was going to say, clearly, there is a statement in 18 service'. Once accepted, the monk regards his community 18 there which is at odds with the principles laid down in 19 as his family, the group of people he has committed 19 Nolan, that "An abbot's first task, before all else, is 20 himself to for the rest of his life. So within the 20 the care of his monks". I recognise that the abbot in 21 community mutual loyalty builds trust and a shared 21 charge of the monastery has -- not a choice, but he has 22 commitment to a particular 'ethos'. So unlike other 22 responsibilities in both areas, but the Paramountcy 23 orders in the Roman Catholic Church, monks do not 23 Principle makes it clear, and clearly from the statutory 24 transfer from one community to another. Each is 24 authorities basis, that it should always be the safety 25 committed to his community and available for the works 25 of the child that takes precedence, and it seemed to be

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1 of that community. His vows are to that community, not 1 at odds with that. 2 to the Benedictine Order, and the abbot is his superior, 2 Q. What about the suggestion that he would make his own 3 accountable through election to his community. The 3 enquiries and make a decision, in effect, on the 4 abbot operates within guidelines laid down by the 4 veracity of an account? 5 'Congregation', a family of monasteries; there are some 5 A. That describes to me exactly the circumstances of both 6 20+ incorporating the 240 monasteries. But there is no 6 my contact with them in 1995, 2002 and again in 7 hierarchy beyond the abbot. The Abbot President may 7 circumstances where, in 2003, they were receiving clear 8 intervene in times of crisis, but he has no day-to-day 8 advice from respected professionals that they needed to 9 authority over the abbot and his community, and there is 9 take further action. They were not taking that action. 10 no sense of a superior-general In Rome. The abbot and 10 In terms of the reasons for that, were -- appeared to be 11 his community are an independent body. 11 that statement about taking care of the monks. 12 "An abbot's first task before all else is the care 12 Again, I think this was very clear both to myself 13 of his monks. The Rule of St Benedict makes that clear; 13 and to David Molesworth in social services because it 14 he is the person each of the brethren offer their 14 was a matter we discussed, in the preparation for this 15 obedience, he is the trusted confidante in whom they 15 hearing, having seen documents that refer to the same 16 confide in the certain knowledge that such confidences 16 periods of time from their perspective, their notes, 17 are respected. Their home is the one place to which 17 their minutes, et cetera, it was clear that they were 18 they can always return, regardless of what has happened, 18 making -- they were undertaking some forms of risk 19 because their home is defined by an enclosure from which 19 assessment. Those risk assessments included issues to 20 externs are excluded. It lies at the heart of our 20 do with the reputation of the school, what was best for 21 Benedictine monastic spirit that such a view is 21 the other children within the school. Now, all of those 22 maintained; without that loyalty, trust and affection 22 are perfectly valid things to consider. In fact, 23 for the abbot, the monastery collapses. 23 I think most of the organisations here will have 24 "This may raise a question in your minds: does this 24 considered them. But they are not things to consider at 25 mean the abbot will not be transparent with us? Of 25 the time that information comes to light about some form

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1 of sexual abuse. It is very clear that they should have 1 have been places of unquestioning hospitality ever since 2 been coming to us and talking to us, as statutory 2 they existed: a universally recognised function, that 3 authorities, to deal with that. 3 the refugee from whatever can find sanctuary in the 4 Q. Just help us here. You have many, many years of police 4 cloister. It does not prevent the authorities gaining 5 experience? 5 access, but nor does it oblige us to voluntarily hand 6 A. Yes. 6 him over. I used an example of this in a sermon in 7 Q. Investigating some of the most serious offences? 7 Westminster abbey, our former home, last October. The 8 A. Yes. 8 packed congregation took the point. In our situation, 9 Q. Help us with explaining what problems it causes a police 9 I am not using this to say I am going to block the work 10 investigation if this type of private investigation is 10 of statutory authorities, but that I am prepared to 11 undertaken first? 11 accept anyone as a guest without question; it is at the 12 A. In many ways -- the way that Operation Ellipse was set 12 heart of monastic hospitality. It also means that monks 13 up was to counter some of the things that this type of 13 who have offended can come and live in their monastery 14 activity brings, which is that if people are discussing 14 with restrictions in what they can do and where they can 15 the case beforehand, they are talking to different 15 go, restrictions carefully monitored on a regular basis 16 people about it, they are conveying their views, they 16 if necessary. As part of our working relationship that 17 are conveying information from one person to another. 17 would include full discussion with you too. But the 18 It contaminates the information that's available, so 18 point you will have taken clearly is that this place is 19 that, all of a sudden, we don't have their true 19 the home of each monk in this community; it is not an 20 recollection, we have their recollection impacted by 20 option for me to send them elsewhere, nor can it be 21 other people, and that, throughout enquiries, 21 a home which feels like a prison (though perhaps that is 22 particularly of this type, has been a problem for 22 how many people would view monastic life!)." 23 investigators. 23 Do you have any observations on that passage? 24 I certainly tried to convey that to them in 2002, 24 A. I think it's -- the first thing is, when he's talking 25 that that was the case. It was very obvious to me that 25 about that he will not send them away. I think one of

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1 that had not been heeded or understood. 1 the concerns certainly that was raised by I think it was 2 Q. Was there ever a sense that they understood their 2 Ruth Mann was that they talk -- he talks about some form 3 brethren better and knew how to approach things better, 3 of -- if they have committed offences, that they can 4 or not? 4 come back into the community, that when they have come 5 A. I think they quite rightly would think that we did not 5 back into the community there needs to be some sort of 6 understand quite the life that they led. This was the 6 risk management, which was the subject of later 7 depths that we were into, and this was an education to 7 conversation with them about how they manage these 8 me, and obviously something that I had to learn as 8 risks, but that didn't seem to actually be implemented. 9 I went along. But in terms of how they, as a community, 9 So whilst Nolan was there giving some instruction 10 operated, much as I wanted to understand it and 10 about it, actually complying with ongoing management of 11 appreciate it, what I didn't believe it could do is that 11 risk in these circumstances -- I fully accept that 12 their own rules and how they dealt with things could not 12 a monastery can be a place that somebody can go back to, 13 put children at risk. 13 but this was a monastery that had wide public access, 14 Q. The letter goes on to say: 14 certainly to children and students. 15 "But the crucial point is that the monastery (by 15 The abbot at times seemed to distance himself -- 16 that I mean specifically its dedicated area) is a place 16 distance the monastery from the school, and yet my 17 for adults, who have freely chosen to join. It is not 17 understanding is that he had a role in both. As the 18 a place for the young or for the vulnerable. Each monk 18 abbot, he was also part of the governing body as 19 has to make his own decision about taking life-long vows 19 a governor, and so there isn't that total separation 20 and the community then approve it formally by Chapter 20 that he seemed to be suggesting there. There was no 21 vote. This cannot be done, with integrity, by the 21 separation. 22 emotionally immature or psychologically disturbed. 22 In relation to Ruth Mann, clearly one of the main 23 "The work most closely associated with the monastery 23 things that she felt was that one of the priests was 24 is hospitality. It is a function clearly promoted in 24 actually living away in circumstances where there was no 25 the Rule: 'treat all who come as Christ'. Monasteries 25 supervision, there was no protection to children who

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1 could come into contact, and she recommended that he be 1 the Abbot and headmaster have access to school buildings 2 brought back to the monastery because that was the only 2 during the school term. About that there is no 3 way that you could monitor safety. 3 disagreement between Abbot and headmaster, no lack of 4 Q. When you attended the site in terms of the two 4 clarity." 5 functions, the hospitality function and the school 5 How well monitored -- were you aware of how well 6 function, were there times when you would see other 6 monitored that was, that only monks who were members of 7 people who weren't monks around the area? 7 the school staff or had specific approval of the abbot 8 A. Yes. It has three functions. There can be people there 8 and headmaster would have access to school buildings? 9 who are hospitality. The facilities, like the main 9 A. I have no real information about that. My understanding 10 shop, was available to all. I know that they had 10 was that in that direction there was -- that controls 11 given -- or they talk about consideration of how that 11 were in place so that entrants to school buildings -- 12 could be safe. But certainly, when we first had 12 the issue was that pupils were not restricted to school 13 contact, I'm not sure that that was the case at all. 13 buildings, that they had access to other parts of 14 Q. He goes on to say: 14 the site, including the shop, which is not in the school 15 "So you can see why our hospitality, like our 15 building but it is actually in the abbey area. So that 16 community, is open to anyone. We do not seek any 16 in terms of safety, there were concerns in the reverse 17 background checks on our visitors, nor do we ask 17 direction, really. When we were considering risk 18 intrusive questions. We provide for those who seek the 18 management and safety, those were some of the things 19 peace of the monastery: if they are disruptive, they are 19 that we were considering. 20 asked to leave. Significantly, our hospitality outreach 20 Q. "The issue which might lie behind the concern expressed 21 has broadened considerably in recent years: we host not 21 at the meeting was about the level of openness I could 22 just religious events, but training courses for the 22 as Abbot give to the headmaster about members of 23 police, provide camp facilities for the handicapped, and 23 the community, not on the school staff, not permitted by 24 reach out to help marginal groups, addicts, 24 me to enter the school. The headmaster was seeking full 25 ex-prisoners, et cetera. That is what a monastery is 25 disclosure of any assessments undertaken. I resisted on

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1 about and ironically we have a right of way through the 1 the grounds they had nothing to do with people under his 2 middle of our premises! 2 control. I took the matter to the Abbot's Council, who 3 "Monastery and school. 3 were unanimous in supporting me. That emphasised the 4 "It is clear then that the aims of the monastery and 4 importance of the abbot's role as confidante to the 5 the aims of the school are potentially in sharp 5 brethren and being particularly careful about the 6 conflict. In the modern world, schools operate on the 6 revelation of details to those who do not need to know." 7 principle that every visitor is a potential threat. 7 Do you have a view on disclosure of issues 8 I can understand why that has come about. 8 surrounding safeguarding and monks in the monastery 9 "The school at Ampleforth is run by the St Laurence 9 being disclosed to those in the school? 10 Education Trust, separate from, but connected to, the 10 A. Well, I think -- I have this difficulty that, as 11 Ampleforth Abbey Trust. As an independent fee-paying 11 a governor of the school, he separates the two, and I'm 12 school whose headmaster is a member of HMC, it has to 12 not sure that that's an appropriate stance to take. But 13 conform to certain norms, set by the state and by the 13 in terms of disclosure, then if he doesn't want to -- 14 professional bodies. 14 disclosure doesn't necessarily need to be to the 15 "When it comes to child protection policies, it is 15 headmaster of the school. It is clear in Nolan that 16 responsible for its own administration and the Abbot has 16 disclosure of information that puts children at risk 17 no part in that. The monastery's child protection 17 should be made to the statutory authorities and if the 18 coordinator plays an advisory role. 18 statutory authorities are aware of it, then there can be 19 "The Abbot after consulting the headmaster appoints 19 some discussion about whether or not the school should 20 members of the community to work in the school. No monk 20 be made aware of it. 21 is forced on the headmaster against his wishes, and no 21 In the circumstances, I have no doubt at all that in 22 monk known to be guilty of an offence against young 22 those circumstances I would be wishing to tell the 23 people would ever be appointed. 23 headmaster the nature of the people that the pupils at 24 "The consequence; only monks who are members of 24 the school could come in contact with so that he could 25 the school staff or have the specific approval of 25 take appropriate measures to prevent that happening.

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1 Because, as far as we could see, there were not 1 precisely for that purpose. Concern was raised over 2 appropriate measures in place within Ampleforth itself 2 some of the monks serving in the shop off this area. 3 to stop that happening. 3 The background to that was a decision by me, with the 4 Q. "Defining limits. 4 support of the brethren, to take over the running of 5 "From this, you will realise, I am sure, that we 5 the shop, and each of us does his stint, no matter what 6 have a specific problem at Ampleforth relating to the 6 his history; it is a community work. Even the Abbot has 7 arrangement of our buildings. To us who live within, 7 a fixed time! The fact that it is open, has glass 8 there is a clear distinction between what belongs to the 8 sides, no-one is ever on his own and each stint is of 9 school and what is part of the monastery enclosure and 9 limited time, reduced the risk to as low as it 10 what is available to hospitality. Our visitors are made 10 reasonably could be, certainly no different from 11 aware of that distinction. 11 children on the way to or from school going to 12 "But you, too, have to understand and appreciate the 12 a supermarket." 13 distinction and must feel you can make an evaluation 13 Do you have any observations about any of that? 14 whether these distinctions form an undue risk, or, in 14 A. Not really. I don't think we'd ever got to the stage 15 the circumstances, are simply the best we can do. 15 where we were going to discuss the structure of 16 "This needs to be teased out a little more 16 the building. We hadn't got past the fact that we 17 carefully. 17 weren't actually being given information that they had. 18 "You may conclude that running a monastery with its 18 It took several meetings and a number of months before 19 philosophy as outlined above adjacent to a boarding 19 we achieved what I thought was a reasonable level of 20 school is doomed to create too high a risk, whether from 20 exchange of information. 21 the monks or from guests. If that is the case, you will 21 Q. Was it sufficient to say, "Well, look, children might 22 inform me, and we will have to consider what action to 22 come into contact with people anywhere in life -- on the 23 take. That can only be to move the school or move the 23 way to the supermarket -- so what's the difference 24 monastery, either are high-profile actions which would 24 here"? 25 attract a lot of public comment and may result in the 25 A. I don't think I agree with that comment, in the sense

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1 death of one or both, with the consequent effects on 1 that's clearly not right. When they are looking at 2 this area (we are the second largest employer in 2 plans, they should have given proper consideration not 3 Ryedale). We pursue this route with some care. 3 only to where people are allowed to go, but, within 4 "You may not go that far, and want to propose we 4 their own community, which people are allowed to go 5 look to creating a little more physical separation 5 there, and the level of supervision that it would take 6 between school and monastery. You may, for example, 6 to ensure that they do. One of the things that we do 7 say, to achieve greatest protection for the school, that 7 know, that people who commit offences of this type are 8 all school activities should be moved to the east of 8 capable of finding situations where they can actually 9 the new centre. And it may surprise you to know that 9 commit offences, and other than proper surveillance or 10 I have already proposed such an action. It was not 10 proper control, that will happen. 11 welcomed by the school authorities. In that way, there 11 Q. "The Manns. 12 would be a clear separation in the buildings of 12 "I met Elizabeth Mann shortly after taking over as 13 the monastery and its hospitality, from the school, and 13 Abbot at a conference at Sarum College. She was giving 14 that separation is more easily defended. 14 a paper on celibacy. We had a chat afterwards and 15 "You may not even go that far and suggest that we 15 I asked for help. Since then she has been involved with 16 can maintain the school presence in the main hall and 16 some 24 members of the community, some for advice, 17 other parts of the central building (currently open to 17 others for help with personal problems, others for 18 all) without compromising child protection, by making 18 formal psychological assessments. She knows a great 19 everyone aware of the danger points, especially for 19 deal about the brethren. I confided in her and indeed 20 guests who are not checked or members of the community 20 asked her to speak to the community. Not everyone likes 21 who have no permission to be on school premises. 21 her, indeed some have developed considerable antipathy 22 "The discussion about the abbey shop highlights the 22 to her; they found her methods insensitive, her 23 nature of this problem. Located in the main hall, 23 questioning intrusive and her manner too haughty. She, 24 a central meeting place for monks, staff, guests and 24 I know, would object to this. 25 students, outside any restricted area. It was designed 25 "I cannot see why she came and spoke to you without

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1 my consent. Now I know she did, it will reinforce my 1 acknowledged receipt of it, and I wonder whether she has 2 view she betrayed my confidentiality. As a result, the 2 let you know. That would have been the decent thing to 3 cause of child protection and associated issues has been 3 do. Elizabeth also recommended she see one of 4 put back. If the brethren were to find out they would 4 the younger brethren with a particular problem; she did, 5 feel deeply betrayed. They went to her on the 5 but to my observation, this seems to have had little 6 understanding of confidentiality; that has been broken 6 effect and the young man in question has not asked to 7 by her, if not in specifics, at least in general and 7 see her again. 8 created a climate of distrust making it difficult for 8 "It is impossible for me to tell how mother and 9 anyone to take on this role in the future. From my 9 daughter can visit you together without breach of 10 point of view, as Abbot, that is a major catastrophe. 10 professional confidentiality. Perhaps you will be able 11 I seek to underline that so that you can appreciate the 11 to explain that more precisely." 12 background against which you want us to create trust. 12 Anything to add in respect of Ruth Mann? 13 She will, as she always does, seek to justify her 13 A. No. I don't think so. My understanding is that she 14 actions. But she clearly did not think through the 14 gave -- again, she saw that there was risk to children 15 consequences of her action." 15 and asked for action to be taken, which was not taken. 16 You were there at the time. You responded to 16 The idea that this is a breach of professional 17 disclosures made. Have you any observations to make 17 confidentiality -- it is accepted that the 18 about that passage? 18 confidentiality -- by coming to us, she has breached 19 A. The first thing is that the final line is clearly wrong. 19 that confidentiality, but for the one reason that she 20 Elizabeth Mann did think through the consequences of her 20 should do. 21 actions; not only that, she discussed it with a number 21 Q. He then goes on to outline six cases, which he calls A, 22 of professional bodies. Even at the stage where after 22 B, C, D, E and F. I will provide the relevant names 23 she had made the initial disclosure to social services, 23 from the facts as we go through. He says: 24 she was not prepared at that stage to provide 24 "As part of my commitment to building trust, I would 25 information to the police until she could resolve the 25 like now to share with you what I have done over 6 cases

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1 issues around confidentiality. 1 in the community. I will refer to them as A, B, C, D, 2 My understanding of that is that there was -- whilst 2 E, F, in order to preserve anonymity at this stage. 3 there was an agreement on confidentiality, it included 3 I imagine you will be able to put names to all six. 4 a clause about disclosure if people were at risk, 4 "Case A." 5 particularly children at risk. I can only say that 5 As we read, we will realise that is the case of 6 this -- the idea that the abbot had been betrayed by 6 Bernard Green: 7 Elizabeth Mann in coming forward I think speaks quite 7 "Concerns a housemaster who committed an offence 8 loudly about his approach to this, because I think it 8 while in post in 1995. My predecessor, Abbot Patrick, 9 was her duty to come forward. 9 was Abbot at the time. The monk was immediately removed 10 In the circumstances where she had tried to raise 10 from post and the matter handed over to the statutory 11 the issues with the community and they had not 11 authorities. The case came to court: he was sentenced 12 responded, she believed children were at risk, and 12 to two years' probation, 100 hours' community service 13 I believe that that was absolutely the correct approach. 13 and a fortnight at a centre in Didcot for sex offenders. 14 Q. "The role of her daughter Ruth is rather different. 14 Subsequent to that he spent several months at a Catholic 15 Since Elizabeth does not do risk assessments and I had 15 treatment centre near Stroud. They concluded he was not 16 need for one such, she recommended Ruth. I accepted. 16 a paedophile, and so he could continue as a priest. 17 She did not handle it well; the person felt he was not 17 "When I was elected Abbot in March 1997, he had just 18 properly listened to and was not given a chance to 18 completed his course at Stroud, but had several months 19 respond in the three-way session. The follow-up letters 19 of his probation still to run. It was agreed that he 20 (significantly, she was the only of the three risk 20 should live at our small priory in Osmotherley, but with 21 assessments I have commissioned to follow up) generated 21 no responsibilities in the parish. He went back to his 22 a sense of panic which the facts did not warrant. In 22 studies. 23 the end, I sought a second opinion (a normal procedure 23 "Today he is at St Benet's Hall, Oxford, no longer 24 when a medical judgment is questioned) and sent her 24 on the Sex Offenders Register, nearly completed his 25 a copy of it when she requested. She has not 25 Doctorate and will continue to teach and write in the

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1 university. He has a successful ministry with adults. 1 "In the middle of May it was conveyed to me that the 2 He sees his psychiatrist from time to time who sends me 2 'victim' would welcome a private meeting with me, 3 reports." 3 accompanied by another monk. That took place at his 4 You told us that you had some dealings with that 4 offices. The details of what he said are important: 5 case. Plainly, there is a difference of view in what 5 "- He spoke in detail about the incidents of abuse; 6 Abbot Timothy said about the monk being immediately 6 "- He referred to a counterproductive conversation 7 removed from the post and the matter handed over to the 7 with the headmaster; 8 statutory authorities? 8 "- He had no intention of making a formal 9 A. No, my recollection of that was that the incident 9 allegation; 10 occurred overnight. A pupil was -- Father Bernard Green 10 "- He had been in touch with the police who he said: 11 went into the dormitory and inappropriately touched the 11 wanted to 'get Ampleforth'." 12 student. That happened overnight. 12 Do you have any observations about that? 13 I think it was brought to the attention of 13 A. None. 14 the authorities and an agreement was made that the 14 Q. Do you recall or have any knowledge of North Yorkshire 15 victim would be seen the following day, and by the 15 Police contacting that complainant and having such 16 following day the parents of the child indicated that 16 a discussion? 17 they were not prepared for the police to speak to them 17 A. My understanding was that the police did have contact -- 18 and that they would not make a formal complaint, and 18 the police certainly did have contact to try to arrange 19 there had been contact, obviously, between Ampleforth 19 an interview, and it was -- we were informed by 20 and the parents. 20 social services. I've certainly no recollection of 21 Q. You're right. 21 anybody suggesting that the police were out to get 22 A. That was the situation. That was the first time that 22 Ampleforth. What we were trying to do was to follow up 23 that happened, and obviously we were concerned that that 23 what was a disclosure in the most appropriate manner. 24 had happened and we no longer had somebody to come 24 Q. "- He had advice his legal position was weak; 25 forward. 25 "- His high profile job might be under threat with

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1 In that particular case, DS Hartnett took advice and 1 formal involvement in the courts. 2 Bernard Green was arrested, interviewed and admitted the 2 "That conversation was crucial for me as Abbot. 3 offence, and he was sentenced on the basis of his 3 When the statutory authorities withdrew, I knew B could 4 admission. 4 not return to his post, but I also knew I needed 5 Q. Yes. I was confusing it with another case. Forgive me 5 a convincing case to put forward. I commissioned a risk 6 for that. 6 assessment, which only started to get to the bottom of 7 The next case, case B: 7 the situation when I informed the person conducting it 8 "Concerns another housemaster against whom an 8 about the details of my conversation. B then produced 9 allegation [case B is RC-F16] was made by a former pupil 9 his version of the events, which form part of the risk 10 of his house some 12 years after the event. The first 10 assessment. To this day B has refused to accept the 11 rumour to reach me came from a letter written by another 11 conclusions of the risk assessment and is in the process 12 Old Amplefordian to the headmaster. That 12 of seeking exclaustration. This is a three-year period 13 Old Amplefordian heard it at third hand; he wrote out of 13 when he lives outside the monastery, effectively as 14 concern. 14 a layman, to reassess his vocation. The letter which 15 "The strength of our Ampleforth extended family is 15 I sent to parents last October was agreed by B, his 16 that sometimes one can approach such issues in 16 lawyers, our lawyers, the headmaster, the victim, our PR 17 a roundabout way to see if there's any truth. This we 17 people, the statutory authorities. There is an agreed 18 did; and the outline of the story seemed to be known to 18 reference to the incident in his application for jobs. 19 a tight group of friends, but not beyond. Once we had 19 He will never work with young people. 20 that clarity, the headmaster sought the advice of 20 "Case C" -- 21 the statutory authorities and the housemaster was 21 A. Could I just -- in relation to case B, this is a case 22 suspended pending an investigation. The housemaster 22 that we have already -- this is a case in June 2002. In 23 remained in denial and was given access to a lawyer. 23 relation to the contacts -- it is obviously there that 24 Details of the investigation were worked out with the 24 Abbot Timothy had some contacts, but it doesn't say that 25 school authorities. 25 there was the contacts before these extensive contacts

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1 with visits to the victim on that occasion. 1 protection coordinator from a young man in treatment who 2 I am at some odds to understand things like "he had 2 claimed to be a victim of C's abuse. 3 advice his legal position was weak" and issues about 3 "When Nolan was published, I sought a risk 4 "his high job profile might be under threat from formal 4 assessment, undertaken by Ruth Mann. The assessment was 5 involvement in the court". 5 agreed in October. The three-way meeting took place at 6 As an investigator, the difficulty for me is that 6 the end of December. At that meeting, I stated clearly 7 these are things that really have no relevance to the 7 that I would not rush to move C from Osmotherley, but 8 disclosure in the first instance and the contacts that 8 would put in place increased safeguards, which the prior 9 we have, and I wonder why these are issues that have 9 of the monastery in Osmotherley, Father Terence, 10 been discussed between them and him. I'm not in 10 accepted. A sudden move causes speculation, usually 11 a position to suggest one way or the other, but this is 11 negative, and after a period of over 25 years plus 12 where becoming involved in that creates problems for the 12 without any blemish or complaint, there seemed no reason 13 statutory authorities, because these are now matters 13 to be hasty about this. 14 which should not have been interfering with a disclosure 14 "After the risk assessment meeting, I awaited the 15 but have been and we, I think quite rightly, wonder 15 final, clean copy. What came was a letter demanding the 16 where these have come from. 16 immediate withdrawal of C. I replied saying that 17 Q. Does it take a special skill set or training to speak 17 I could not act without a final copy of the report. 18 and take an account from someone who alleges abuse? 18 That came, and I sent C to another location, pending the 19 A. Absolutely. In setting up Operation Ellipse, the most 19 publication of my decision to move him back to the 20 critical thing for me, and the advice that we received 20 abbey. Subsequent to that, a further letter from Ruth 21 from the National Crime Faculty, was that the people who 21 seeking assurance her report was being followed was 22 should make the approaches (a) needed to be well trained 22 passed to our CPC coordinator and somehow did not get 23 and (b) needed to be able to maintain a contact with the 23 acted upon, until a further letter came with additional 24 victims throughout a period of time, because disclosures 24 requirements. She added a further recommendation in 25 don't always come at the first visit. There is work to 25 this letter, not a professional way of acting. At this

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1 be done to win the trust of people who have become 1 point I wrote informing her that I was seeking a second 2 untrusting. This whole idea -- this is exactly the type 2 opinion. When she sent another letter, I sent her 3 of problem that we are concerned about. 3 a copy of the second opinion, agreed by the author. 4 MS KARMY-JONES: Thank you. I see the time. Would it be an 4 I have not heard since. 5 appropriate moment for the afternoon break? 5 "A glance at the second opinion suggests there is 6 THE CHAIR: Yes, certainly. We will return at 3.15 pm. 6 a case for saying she has acted overhastily both in her 7 (3.05 pm) 7 judgments about C and the requirements she makes. C now 8 (A short break) 8 lives in the monastery, works in our hospitality and has 9 (3.18 pm) 9 no contact with our schools." 10 MS KARMY-JONES: We were just going on to case C, which most 10 Mr Honeysett, any observations on the case of 11 will recognise relates to the case of 11 Piers Grant Ferris and what Abbot Timothy has written 12 Piers Grant Ferris: 12 there? 13 "This monk was teaching at Gilling Castle our prep 13 A. I think most of this has been covered previously, but 14 school in the mid 1970s when he was reported for 14 it's -- again, in terms of a risk plan, I don't consider 15 inappropriate behaviour with the boys. The matter was 15 that to be a risk plan. Again, had it been shared with 16 fully investigated by the abbot, headmaster and senior 16 the statutory authorities, we would have been in 17 monks at the time, the monk was removed from post, given 17 a position to actually discuss it and come up with 18 psychiatric treatment and sent to a parish where his 18 something that was what we believed to be safe. 19 parish priest was warned of his faults. 19 Having said that, I don't think there is anything 20 "Since then he has had a career of outstanding 20 else I can say. 21 pastoral work, in his own eccentric way. When I was 21 Q. "Case D". This is RC-F27: 22 elected Abbot, I moved him from the parishes to 22 "Concerns a monk who worked in the school and 23 Osmotherley, on the grounds it was a monastery more than 23 subsequently in the monastery. He has been under 24 a parish, see case A. Just before I was elected, 24 psychiatric treatment for over 20 years. It is 25 a complaint was received via the Middlesbrough child 25 difficult to decide whether the complaints are against

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1 adults or children, certainly the youngest are on the 1 junior house (10-13-year-old boys) now Alban Roe House 2 cusp of 18. I have received three allegations, two 2 used by hospitality. He also had responsibility for our 3 refer to homosexual behaviour with adults and one which 3 hostel at Redcar Farm on the other side of the valley. 4 occurred while the boy was either in the school or just 4 He had groups of young boys helping him with work at 5 afterwards. I visited the latter; he was more concerned 5 Redcar Farm. In the course of these occasions he seems 6 with D than with bringing any formal allegation. 6 to have shared pornography and perhaps exposed himself. 7 "I suggested that he had a risk assessment, and in 7 Complaints were made; he was removed from post and sent 8 the first instance his psychiatrist should consider 8 to a parish in Workington, with the full knowledge of 9 this. In the end, he thought it would be 9 the parish priest and the local bishop. He also 10 therapeutically disastrous for his patient, and refused 10 received psychiatric treatment. With the advent of 11 to cooperate. D eventually agreed to have a risk 11 the Nolan regulations, I brought him back to live in our 12 assessment through the Lucy Faithfull Foundation. The 12 House of Silence and Prayer in the middle of the valley, 13 report has been seen by his psychiatrist who has engaged 13 with the monk who is in charge of it. He has asked for 14 a therapist in a specialist centre in the locality to 14 psychological assessment, but in the light of my current 15 deal with the issues that have arisen. I am striving to 15 distrust he has withdrawn. 16 get reports on progress with little success; again his 16 "There is little in our files of hard evidence of 17 psychiatrist (a new one, the previous one having 17 what happened. A letter from the mother of one of his 18 retired) refuses to cooperate and accuses me of pursuing 18 victims asked for assurance that he was no longer 19 a route detrimental to his patient's good health. My 19 working with young people. That I was able to give. 20 next step is to approach the therapist, but he may not 20 A second arose out of the investigation of B, which 21 cooperate either. 21 Father Prior dealt with, in cooperation with the 22 "In the middle of this noncooperation by experts, 22 statutory authorities. 23 I contacted the psychiatrist on the Nolan Committee to 23 "The danger I perceived in his case lay in the 24 seek his advice. He himself knew the person I was 24 likely actions of Elizabeth Mann if he made disclosures. 25 dealing with, and tried to persuade him to cooperate 25 As the Lucy Faithfull Foundation pointed out on an

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1 without success. He told me there was little I could do 1 earlier occasion, there is a big difference between an 2 and the Ethics Committee of the relevant professional 2 admission, which contains no precise details, and so 3 body was unlikely to be more effective." 3 cannot be followed up, and a disclosure which gives 4 Do you recall that case? 4 enough information for a person to, in effect, 5 A. I don't really recall that particular case other than at 5 incriminate himself. I cannot put any member of 6 a meeting I think on -- in November 2003, anyway, which 6 the community in such a position." 7 was discussing about risk, that this case was reviewed 7 Did you understand that distinction between an 8 with the statutory authorities and we made suggestions 8 admission and a disclosure? 9 as to a risk management plan, and that was contained in 9 A. I'm not sure that I do. This just seems to reinforce 10 that time. Again, the nature of how we are -- this 10 the dichotomy that he had, which was that he felt he had 11 communication arrives, where we are not given the 11 to protect priests, but he understood that Nolan had 12 details of who the priest is, they were asking for us to 12 a Paramountcy Principle. But, again, what you are 13 give them advice as opposed to sitting down and talking 13 talking about here is him protecting priests, and that 14 to us about how we would manage this together, and 14 was what he talked about, protecting priests. There's 15 I think there is a -- there are some consistent themes 15 nothing in there about a risk plan. I think, quite 16 here, and it is very much about whether or not we are 16 appropriately, when Nolan came out, he's made 17 working together. They would give us some information 17 a decision, brought him back under better supervision, 18 but they wouldn't give us a name. There wasn't the 18 that's commendable, and -- but, against a background of 19 openness which, to be honest, we experienced -- it's one 19 a choice between whether or not information is released 20 of the few times I have ever experienced, at this stage 20 to the statutory authorities so that something can 21 and with this gravity of information, where 21 happen or that an assessment can be made, there is this 22 organisations are not being open because that's what it 22 trust thing, clearly -- I didn't trust them and they 23 needs to actually tackle the problem. 23 didn't trust me as a police officer, but I'm not sure on 24 Q. Case E relates to Gregory Carroll: 24 what grounds they felt that they couldn't trust us. 25 "This monk was in the late 1980s teaching in our 25 Q. "He has been seeing a psychiatrist regularly, but there

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1 is need for more accurate information and I intend to 1 'Authorities', they will lose trust. Each monk has 2 refer him to a psychotherapist in the near future. That 2 access to his own file, that is required by the latest 3 may or may not lead to a formal risk assessment. 3 data protection legislation. Each monk has right to 4 "Case F [which relates to F29]: 4 legal defence if that should be needed. Building trust 5 "A monk about whom there has been suspicion, but no 5 has to be done with great sensitivity. The heavy hand 6 hard facts. He was a housemaster, I removed him on the 6 will destroy it more quickly than anything else. We 7 evidence of a report passed to me by the headmaster, 7 have to work hard to make sure the monastic community 8 from the school matron, stating that he had made 8 works cooperatively with the abbot and the child 9 a medical diagnosis and offered treatment to a boy who 9 protection coordinator. I have discussed this at length 10 next morning was diagnosed with appendicitis. Such 10 with my council. Their advice is to proceed slowly and 11 unprofessional decision-making in a housemaster of six 11 quietly. There is, after all, no disagreement about the 12 years' standing was unacceptable. I considered his 12 end we are all aiming at, protection of our young people 13 judgment flawed for the position of trust he held, so 13 and vulnerable adults. 14 removed him to parish. That did not last; I moved him 14 "One thing is clear: to maintain the role of 15 to St Benet's Hall, Oxford, as [redacted]. After a few 15 the abbot and his relationship to his brethren, he must 16 years that too was unsatisfactory. He is now back in 16 delegate functions relating to child protection to his 17 the abbey. He is not on the school staff, but would 17 child protection coordinator. Each monk has or is 18 like to be, and I am trying to secure his agreement to 18 undergoing a CRB check; we are considering an ID system 19 go forward with assessment. I have no evidence that he 19 for our brethren when they travel; I have been more 20 has abused a young person and I have no reason to say he 20 ready than any of my predecessors to seek professional 21 would. All I have stated is that he cannot have 21 help. 22 anything to do with the school staff until a qualified 22 "But most important of all, I have to remember that 23 person, I have a psychotherapist in mind, tells me he is 23 all of us are sinners, for which our life is one long 24 no risk. He has many fine gifts." 24 act of repentance. Child abuse is one of the most 25 Do you recall that case? 25 appalling crimes, especially when committed by monks and

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1 A. I don't. I see that in the ciphers there is no name and 1 priests. That I fully accept, and I am committed to 2 I couldn't put a name to that. 2 ensuring that no member of this community is ever put in 3 THE CHAIR: Excuse me, Ms Karmy-Jones. The last-named 3 a position where it might happen. That is why we need 4 person, does the information contained in that identify 4 the good practice of Nolan and Working Together and 5 a ciphered person? 5 a close, mutually respecting, transparent and trusting 6 MS KARMY-JONES: I don't think it does. There may be, 6 relationship with you from the statutory authorities. 7 I suppose, an issue -- perhaps out of an abundance of 7 I hope, from the bottom of my heart, that we can achieve 8 caution, we should ask for the feed to stop. Thank you 8 that. I apologise again for any failures on our side. 9 for pointing that out. 9 I hope you appreciate the distinctive nature of 10 Out of an abundance of caution, bearing in mind that 10 a monastic community and I pray that we can work ever 11 there is no reference in this passage at least to any 11 more closely together to ensure that trust so essential 12 dates, perhaps you would, chair, apply a restriction 12 if we are to achieve our goal. 13 order to the position that case F took up. 13 "With best wishes and assurance of the prayers of 14 THE CHAIR: Yes, I will make that order. 14 the community for your work ..." 15 MS KARMY-JONES: Thank you for observing that. 15 You have given us, Mr Honeysett, an overview now, 16 Going on to the conclusion: 16 looking back on this. But what was your response when 17 "In this letter I have been as open and honest with 17 you received it in August 2003? 18 you as you have asked. I have shared with you the 18 A. I was certainly surprised to receive the letter. It was 19 unique problems of Ampleforth and its conflicting 19 probably the first time that I considered that the 20 philosophies. It is for you now to respond in like 20 community at Ampleforth was, if you like -- there was 21 manner, indicating other instances of complaint, grey 21 some doubt as to whether or not they accepted Nolan. 22 areas, lack of cooperation. 22 I say that in terms of the comments that were raised 23 "You will appreciate how difficult a balancing act 23 about not accepting authority from Rome, the idea that 24 I have to achieve. If the community think their abbot 24 Nolan, which was supported by the rest of, as 25 is constantly reporting their every misdemeanour to the 25 I understood it, Catholic organisations, that the abbot

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1 insisted that he was -- it was up to him, if you like, 1 children, the concerns that abounded were about the 2 what decisions were made, and the idea that nobody's -- 2 impact on the ski trip. These were the sorts of things 3 that nobody existed -- I understand quite in that last 3 that were difficult for us -- I think that was difficult 4 paragraph, "you will appreciate how difficult 4 for us to understand, that they could think like that, 5 a balancing act it was to achieve" and it clearly was 5 but that is how they were thinking at that time. That's 6 a really difficult balancing act for him to achieve. 6 really all I could conclude about -- from the letter. 7 I think, from my perspective, when he was trying to 7 It reinforced -- the letter rather reinforced the 8 do that, he was on the wrong side. He was very focused 8 feelings I had about safeguarding within Ampleforth 9 on the monastic community, making sure that that was 9 rather than allayed my fears. 10 kept together, that he could maintain trust and 10 Q. In terms of not only the assessments, but also were you 11 everything with those, but constantly through this, that 11 given to understand that there were individual files in 12 message comes out, but actually the protection of 12 respect of each monk? 13 children doesn't come out as the primary objective of 13 A. Yes. 14 what they were doing, and I think that was the reason 14 Q. Did you ever see those files? 15 that we received the disclosures from the Manns in the 15 A. I'm not sure that we had -- I'm not sure that we 16 first place and obviously the reason why we went on to 16 actually had the files. I don't think we ever took 17 work very closely with them in the next few months, for 17 possession of the files. We did later on -- the 18 reasons of our own, but for reasons of safety. The 18 information sharing that occurred as we were preparing 19 priority here was the safety of children, in terms of 19 for the investigation was quite extensive, and we were 20 the investigation. 20 supplied with information from the files, but I don't 21 The investigation -- the incidents that we had been 21 think we actually had the files themselves. 22 told about were historic. They always needed to be 22 Q. Did there ever come a point where after 23 investigated, but the priority was to make sure that, 23 Operation Ellipse formally began in 2004, you conducted 24 with the information we had, children were safe. That 24 a search of Piers Grant Ferris' room? Can you recall 25 really was the reason why this meeting is taking place. 25 that?

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1 This is in August. We then went on for several months 1 A. I can't. I can't recall that. 2 to work with Ampleforth with David Molesworth to try to 2 Q. I'm just going to ask for AAT000320_490, to be brought 3 make sure that proper risk assessments were in place for 3 up on the screen. I don't think it is in your bundle. 4 all of these people, and it was only once we were 4 This is a search record. It is 9 December, I think, 5 satisfied that that was the case that we started to move 5 2004. 6 on to an investigation. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did Abbot Timothy share with you the risk assessments 7 Q. Room 6, Father Piers, PC Proctor. Can we scroll down 8 that he had had done on any of the individuals at the 8 a bit? There is handwritten A4 papers, three types A4 9 monastery? 9 papers, a collection of typed handwritten notes in 10 A. No, not that I'm aware of. They were shared -- 10 envelope found, laptop computer, memory stick? 11 obviously the -- we didn't receive any written documents 11 A. There obviously was a search conducted. I don't recall 12 from them about what they had in place. We had -- at 12 it. 13 meetings, they would describe instances like that where 13 Q. Do you recall whether any of those documents were 14 somebody is sent to a parish, and they have told the 14 actually matters from his personal file? 15 parish priest or whoever was responsible there, but that 15 A. I couldn't say. 16 wasn't sufficient, that really wasn't safe, because 16 Q. In terms of disclosures, did Ampleforth provide 17 these people were not constantly supervised, they did 17 disclosure, in fact, in respect of four cases? 18 have access to students. There are a number of things 18 A. Yes. 19 throughout all of this. 19 Q. I'm looking at paragraph 25 of your statement. 20 One of the most difficult areas, I think, that we 20 A. Yes. 21 came across -- not in 2003, but in 2002, was the idea 21 Q. Was that in August 2003? 22 that they -- RC-F16, when there was the decision being 22 A. Yes. 23 made about what should happen about that, there was 23 Q. Using the ciphers, what were those four cases? 24 a ski trip that was planned, and even though there was 24 A. Again, I think RC-F29 isn't named in the ciphers. There 25 clearly information that that individual was a risk to 25 was Gregory Carroll, Father Piers Grant Ferris and

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1 RC-F27 is -- we have already discussed. It is one of 1 George Corrie, who -- we had a single point of contact 2 the items in -- that we have discussed and outlined in 2 so that we could go to him and request information. 3 the letter. 3 As much as we have discussed Abbot Timothy's 4 Q. In October/November of that year, did you receive 4 approach to all of this, the one thing I would say, that 5 a detailed report from Dr Mann about 5 whilst he was abbot from the point really 6 Father Gregory Carroll involving 10 to 15 boys from the 6 after August 2003, whilst I had no direct contact with 7 junior house? 7 Abbot Timothy, I don't think we actually met at any 8 A. That's right. 8 stage after that. It was all done through Father Prior. 9 Q. Indicating that knowledge of the abuse had been 9 But there was considerable cooperation from Ampleforth 10 discovered by the school in 1987? 10 in terms of practical aspects of providing us with 11 A. Yes. 11 information and an understanding as to how they 12 Q. We have touched on that as well. Were arrangements made 12 operated. 13 for obtaining further information from Ampleforth, in 13 Q. So no contact with Abbot Timothy really after 2003? 14 the run-up to the investigation? 14 A. No, I don't think so. I can't remember. There were 15 A. That's correct. I tried to explain why there was 15 plenty of meetings, but I don't think he was at the 16 a delay. Obviously, by August -- in the August time, 16 meetings. 17 we'd received information. What happened then was that 17 Q. So the investigation gets going in January, and did you, 18 with David Molesworth we had further contacts with them 18 in January, receive a contact from a solicitor who 19 to -- rather than us search -- us to go searching for 19 detailed a complaint on behalf of another Ampleforth 20 information, we wanted them to supply us with 20 pupil? 21 information, so we were working together. 21 A. Yes. The plan was to start the investigation at the 22 Q. Did they do so readily? 22 start of 2004, and I'd been preparing, in terms of 23 A. I think what happened at that stage was they had engaged 23 reference and things for that. Then in January, we were 24 solicitors. Andrew Dawson was the solicitor. Andrew 24 approached by a solicitor who made new allegations. The 25 wanted to have an agreement about how information would 25 significance of that was that the allegations were made

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1 be passed and handled. This was one of the times where 1 against RC-F18, who at the time was still -- although 2 we were starting to want to -- we wanted to build trust 2 they were historic, he was a senior member of 3 and work with them. One option would have been for us 3 the community and he had access -- there was nothing in 4 not to do that, but to actually go and seize items. 4 place for what was considered to be a significant risk, 5 There was a pragmatic approach to this: if we went and 5 and the operation was only delayed whilst we obtained 6 seized everything, we would get an awful lot of 6 the account from the victim that had come forward, which 7 information that we would have to go through which was 7 took some considerable time, and I think there were six 8 probably irrelevant. What we wanted to do was to work 8 statements taken, five or six statements taken, in the 9 with them and find the information that was there. 9 period between reporting and action, before we were in 10 Q. How extensive were your resources as part of this 10 a position -- and that led to the arrest of RC-F18 at 11 operation? 11 the beginning of February. 12 A. This was really at a strategic level. We were not at 12 Q. Can you remember any of the details of that allegation 13 that stage -- we did not have a dedicated team. This 13 now? 14 was about asking them to supply us with information and 14 A. I can. The allegations in relation to -- was that there 15 the manner in which that would be supplied. That was 15 had been groups of boys engaged in various acts of gross 16 agreed by November 2003 so that we could move forward. 16 indecency; that the victim who came forward had been 17 At the same time, the focus of activity at that time 17 subjected to a number of repeated sexual acts, all of 18 was ensuring that the risk management plans that were 18 this having taken place sometime in the, I think, late 19 discussed were put into place so that what we had was 19 1980s/early 1990s, when the individual concerned worked 20 not just talking about managing risk, but actually 20 at the school as a housemaster. The significant thing 21 managing risk so that things were happening on the 21 about it was that there was a considerable -- in the 22 ground. 22 statements there were a large number of students 23 By November 2003, we were at a stage where we were 23 involved. 24 starting to build confidence with the staff at 24 There was -- it was understood at the start that one 25 Ampleforth, particularly in relation to Father Prior, 25 of the reasons that the officers who took the statement

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1 took so long to get the information before we moved 1 they indicated that a good deal of inappropriate 2 forward was that it had had a considerable impact on his 2 activity had taken place whilst RC-F18 was present, but 3 life, on the victim's life, and there had been, I think, 3 whereas the original account indicated that RC-F18 had 4 some mental health issues. So it was one of those 4 taken part, there was no corroboration of that at all. 5 statements that was very difficult to take and required 5 In relation to the computer software, once we 6 great skill and commitment from the officer who took it. 6 accessed it, whilst it clearly indicated an interest in 7 Q. In terms of material found in searches, was there also 7 adolescent boys, there was no evidence to indicate that 8 a considerable amount of material of interest found on 8 those boys were under age in terms of either the 9 the computer of that individual -- not the victim, or 9 contacts on the website or the photographs that were 10 alleged victim, but the alleged perpetrator? 10 there. 11 A. Once we were in a position to move forward, we exercised 11 So the one offence -- I think the best way to 12 our powers, we arrested RC-F18 at the abbey. We 12 describe how we felt about it was that this appeared to 13 conducted a search of the abbey and recovered a computer 13 be a grooming offence, and grooming I think had become 14 which contained -- which was safeguarded with 14 an offence in 2003, but these offences were all 15 a professional piece of software that prevented us 15 committed well before that offence existed. So 16 openly seeing what was on the machine. That required 16 I think -- I have a lot of respect for Rob Turnbull, 17 forensic examination to actually reveal the information 17 I have worked with him on a number of occasions. He 18 that was there. 18 gave it detailed consideration and, despite the fact 19 There were a number of things found -- photographs. 19 that it left us with some difficulties, I understand 20 There was also information on the computer that 20 fully why that decision was made. 21 indicated that the individual concerned had been 21 Q. Chair, members of the panel, for your reference, the 22 entering websites and posing as a 19-year-old girl to 22 letter outlining the decision is in volume 1 at B13, 23 engage in conversations with males of a sexual nature. 23 should you wish to turn to it, perhaps at another point. 24 So there was considerable information obtained. 24 In some minutes of a meeting of 6 January 2005 at 25 Q. How did Ampleforth respond to the arrest of this 25 B27 -- NYP000192_001 -- turning to pages 2 to 3 very

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1 individual? 1 briefly, Mr Honeysett, you are recorded there in respect 2 A. They cooperated -- in terms of the arrest, on the day of 2 of this at the bottom of page 2 outlining the current 3 the arrest, they cooperated fully. In terms of our 3 position with regards to RC-F18, and over the page, 4 access -- I think it was obviously quite difficult for 4 saying -- you are speaking about meeting with the 5 the community because we were wanting to enter areas 5 headmaster to give a full account of the investigation, 6 that they -- that clearly they would not normally allow 6 confirming that RC-F18 had made the school aware of 7 people to go into. But this was, again, one of 7 the investigation against him, however had not been 8 the benefits of having formed by then, I think, 8 completely open with them: 9 certainly some useful contacts so that we could discuss 9 "Although he had covered every aspect to some 10 with them what needed to happen. 10 extent, he had omitted to give details as to the nature 11 So the actual arrest and the subsequent interviews 11 of the behaviour." 12 that took place -- they obviously organised legal 12 You are here recorded as saying: 13 representation for RC-F18, but in relation to the arrest 13 "For example, he admitted to chatting on the 14 and that part of the investigation, they cooperated 14 internet and accessing pornography. However, he had not 15 fully. 15 disclosed that he had assumed the persona of 16 Q. Eventually, a decision was made by a Crown Prosecutor, 16 a 19-year-old girl and accessed pornography relating to 17 Rob Turnbull, not to proceed with any matters. Do you 17 male children." 18 remember that decision? 18 A. That's accurate. We gave them the information that we 19 A. I do. 19 had. We made a decision then and continued throughout 20 Q. What was your view of that? 20 to be open with the community because, particularly in 21 A. We were obviously disappointed at the decision, but 21 relation to RC-F18, once the decision had been made not 22 I fully understood why. It felt that the nature of 22 to prosecute, then we needed to risk manage, and at 23 the acts that had taken place -- the first problem was 23 a very early stage, even before the decision was made to 24 that the other individuals who were named by the victim 24 not prosecute, we were faced with a difficult position 25 did not corroborate the account. What they did was, 25 in that we had contacted interviews with him and we

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1 needed to release him on bail. 1 itself, there are no -- there were no children, access 2 At that stage, there was no conditional bail for 2 was not for children. So we were satisfied that the 3 precharge, so we could not put bail conditions on him 3 risk management that was in place was safe for children 4 when he was released at that time. He did sign an 4 who were there during that time. If we hadn't, we 5 authority -- he signed an agreement that he would not 5 wouldn't have agreed to it. 6 have anything to do with school or access to children, 6 In relation to RC-F18, that continued further 7 and we went back to Ampleforth, told them that and came 7 because we then went on to contact the statutory 8 up with a set of rules that would allow that to work. 8 authorities and have him barred from having anything to 9 Q. Did you feel that that was adequate? 9 do with teaching or anything else. It was a long-term 10 A. Yes. That was the best we could -- that was the best we 10 thing, but we worked together with -- it was 11 could manage, and I felt -- again, this is part of the, 11 a multi-agency decision that that was the best way to 12 if you like, transition from not trusting them to be -- 12 deal with it. 13 we'd built up some sort of rapport and by this stage we 13 Q. Do you see the difficulty in terms of someone you have 14 were prepared to sit down and discuss them, and there 14 described as devious? 15 were things like -- at some stage -- I don't think it 15 A. Yes. 16 was -- whilst he was on bail, I don't think he had 16 Q. And earlier, I think, in your evidence, you made the 17 contact at all, but once we decided not to prosecute, 17 point that it is not just the movement of the monks, it 18 clearly that was a long-term issue. He was within the 18 is also the movement of the children and the children 19 abbey and our view was that, actually, that's the best 19 may pass through all sorts of areas? 20 place. In all of this, the abbot has more control over 20 A. That's right. We were aware of that and I think we took 21 priests than certainly I had over my staff or 21 the measures that were required to ensure that children 22 David Molesworth had over his while they were in the 22 were safe. 23 abbey, and conditions were set out. He worked in the 23 Q. Would you do something differently now? 24 shop, but he worked in the shop, he was never alone. If 24 A. I don't know. I think that in terms of safety, we were 25 he was there and students walked in, he left, he was 25 satisfied that so long as they were -- what we did do to

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1 required to leave, and these things were set in place. 1 make sure -- if you like, what we did do to make sure 2 So that's what happened at that stage. 2 that people were safe was that we ensured that they 3 Q. Was his position different from that of someone like 3 continued to apply those rules. There was a suggestion 4 Piers Grant Ferris, who had convictions? 4 from the abbot some months later that there should be 5 A. It wasn't different in that we needed a risk management 5 some relaxation of conditions that had been put upon 6 plan that protected -- to protect the children, and 6 him, and we disagreed with that and they abided by that. 7 that's not just children at the school, that was 7 I'm not sure if we could have said, "He has to leave 8 hospitality, anybody visiting Ampleforth College. So 8 the monastery", but we'd already decided that the 9 that's -- I think in all cases, that's what we were -- 9 monastery was the place that we could best protect 10 that was our priority; and whether or not you were 10 children -- by keeping him in the monastery, that was 11 convicted or not convicted, those were the plans that we 11 the best option to protect children. 12 wanted to put in place, particularly in relation to 12 Q. In summary, can you just help us with, overall, the 13 RC-F18, who we considered a serious risk. 13 difficulties the police encountered working with the 14 To actually do what he had done, he had had to 14 community -- Abbot Timothy, Leo Chamberlain, 15 bypass systems that they had in place that controlled 15 George Corrie and any members of the Safeguarding 16 computer access and things, which he had done. He had 16 Commission? How would you sum it up? 17 shown himself to be devious. So we needed a risk 17 A. To start off with, I think I've spoken a number of times 18 management plan in place that would recognise that that 18 about during the period up until November 2003, we 19 might be the case. 19 didn't get the level of cooperation that we thought was 20 Q. So conviction or no conviction aside, was it ever 20 appropriate, and I know that in terms of the other -- 21 appropriate to put him back within the monastery, in the 21 well, primarily David Molesworth and social services, 22 contact with young people that you described earlier in 22 that we were both of the same mind, that they needed to 23 your evidence? 23 do more. 24 A. I think the difficulty -- this is where you go back to, 24 There were some difficulties. Father George, as the 25 that is their home and other places, and the abbey 25 prior and the child protection coordinator, was somebody

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1 who had been given the task, but I don't think 1 main issue with most of the cases was corroboration, 2 thoroughly understood it when he was given the task to 2 that we had individuals who provided the information or 3 start with. So there was work to do with him around how 3 we had third parties talking about things they'd heard 4 that would improve. But then gradually, I think there 4 of, but that after 16 months -- and this was the issue 5 was an acceptance by Ampleforth that they needed to -- 5 of corroboration -- as we worked on the case, we were 6 they needed to change what they were doing and change 6 obviously contacting pupils at all levels and throughout 7 their approach, and certainly, by the time we got to 7 that period and asking them if they had any information, 8 2004, I felt that that was improving. I'm not saying it 8 and after we'd been doing that for a period of about 9 was complete, but it was certainly improving. 9 16 months, we had not gained further information in 10 One of the disappointing things, again, about the 10 relation to these particular cases. 11 documents is that we would go -- we had what I thought 11 So, yes, I was happy that that had been dealt with 12 at the time were successful meetings, which clearly 12 appropriately at that time. 13 there are now some further comments you can read which 13 Q. Chair and members of the panel, for your reference, at 14 suggest that maybe some of the things that they said 14 volume 13A, B8, page 1, reference NYP000181_001, there 15 were not wholehearted. 15 is a note of charging advice given in conference in 16 Q. Can you give us an example? 16 relation to a number of individual cases. I won't bring 17 A. There are certainly some comments regarding 17 it up now. 18 David Molesworth and his approach to it. There are some 18 Have you heard the evidence of Lisa Winward? 19 comments -- a number of the comments I think are around 19 A. Yes. 20 Andrew Dawson. I can't specifically remember, but 20 Q. There were a few matters that she raised questions 21 Andrew Dawson was -- had a legalistic approach to it -- 21 about. 22 he was their solicitor, you would expect him to -- and 22 A. Yes. 23 they didn't -- they would be going along with things we 23 Q. She said in relation to a case of RC-F4 that she 24 said without necessarily agreeing with it. 24 believed that the individual should have been traced and 25 Q. Just before we move on, there were a number of other 25 spoken to at the time of the investigation. Do you wish

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1 cases that you submitted for charging decisions. 1 to make any observation about that? 2 A. There were. 2 A. I think I agree with her. In relation to that 3 Q. Was the advice that you received adequate, in your view? 3 particular case, it was a serious allegation. That 4 A. Yes. I think the advice that we received was adequate. 4 serious allegation had -- the victim in that case had 5 The way that that was approached was directly as 5 come to -- had experienced something at a young age and 6 recommended within the Home Office guidance 2002, which 6 it took him a number of years to come to a conclusion 7 was that we had a "no further action" policy which was 7 about what had happened or what he thought had happened, 8 approved I think at the meeting in 2004. So we agreed 8 and that was a significant offence. There was no 9 how -- where we had cases where we felt that there was 9 corroboration for that particular offence. I think what 10 insufficient evidence to move forward, how we would deal 10 happened with that, and I think we would do it 11 with that. 11 differently -- I know it would be done differently now. 12 I think the approach was appropriate. We had 12 Although corroboration was not required in law, in 13 considered it. All of the matters referred were the 13 practice, for us to have a successful prosecution, we 14 subject of discussion between myself, Angela Carey as 14 would have had to have corroboration, and we didn't have 15 the SIO and deputy SIO. We reviewed the evidence we had 15 it. 16 at the time. That was then forwarded to the CPS, which 16 I think we should have interviewed him. 17 was the requirement for no further action in those 17 We considered -- I think there were nine cases that 18 cases. 18 went to the CPS on that occasion, and eight of them were 19 Q. Were you content with the decisions that the CPS made in 19 in a category in relation to no further action, where it 20 respect of the cases? 20 was appropriate to send the advice without, in my view, 21 A. Yes. In respect of what they decided, there was very 21 actually interviewing them because of the nature of 22 much -- it was mainly around -- there were a number of 22 the evidence and the level of offending. 23 cases where there was no evidence. There were some 23 In that one particular case -- we considered them 24 cases where there were -- there was evidence of 24 all together and we sent them all and the CPS advised 25 offending at a lower end of scale a long time ago. The 25 that there was insufficient evidence to prosecute, and

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1 we did not interview, and I think we should have done. 1 the investigation to be conducted in a more timely 2 Q. She also said of another, RC-F8, that, "We would have 2 manner." 3 traced and interviewed that person by today's 3 Do you agree with that? 4 standards". 4 A. Yes and no. If I can explain, what actually occurred 5 A. I think one of the difficulties is judging the 5 was, in 2004, we had set out how we would conduct the 6 investigation then by today's standards is a difficult 6 enquiry, and one of the things was -- the requirement 7 task to perform. At the time -- in relation to 7 was for highly trained officers who had experience and 8 [redacted] -- 8 the skills to undertake the tasks that were required. 9 Q. Can we just stop there? 9 This was -- North Yorkshire was a small force and we 10 A. I'm sorry. Apologies. 10 didn't have significant numbers of those people. 11 Q. We are nearly there. 11 What happened was that, in the enquiry in relation 12 A. Nearly. 12 to [redacted] -- sorry, I have lost this. 13 MS KARMY-JONES: Madam chair, may I ask for a restriction 13 MS KARMY-JONES: It is late in the afternoon, we understand. 14 order in respect of the mention of the name? 14 But if we can. 15 THE CHAIR: Yes, I grant that order. 15 May I have a restriction order in respect of that 16 MS KARMY-JONES: I am just going to move on quickly, 16 name, please? 17 Mr Honeysett, unless there is something you want to add 17 THE CHAIR: Yes. 18 about that, but I think your answer has in fact been 18 MS KARMY-JONES: You were speaking about F18. 19 plain. 19 A. I was. That required additional resources. Those 20 A. That's fine. 20 additional resources helped us to come to a conclusion 21 Q. You were where you were at the time? 21 in the time that we did in relation to that. 22 A. We were. 22 At the end of that -- these were my decisions. We 23 Q. Did you take the steps that you deemed were appropriate 23 were investigating historic offences, and we needed to 24 at the time? 24 maintain that continuity. 25 A. Yes. 25 When we were interviewing witnesses, witnesses were

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1 Q. Were you aware -- this is a question from others in the 1 quite often visited two or three times. There wasn't 2 room -- of any Ampleforth monks being moved to and from 2 the scope to have large numbers of officers. There were 3 an institution in Scotland called Fort Augustus in 3 some practical considerations as well in relation to 4 circumstances where an allegation of abuse had been made 4 maintaining current resources to deal with incidents of 5 or that they were potentially abusive, where there was 5 this type within the family and around that. 6 a suggestion they may have been? 6 The progress -- I think it could have been done 7 A. No. 7 quicker. I don't think it could have been done better. 8 Q. This is a different question, quickly. Detective 8 We had the best people, and those people brought 9 Sergeant Carey has said that after you moved on, you 9 continuity to it. In debriefs, one of the important 10 took up a different post, around 2007? 10 things was to be able to sit down and talk to people and 11 A. No, I'd retired by then. 11 have an understanding of the interaction of different 12 Q. I have the wrong date. You took up a different post 12 people. That would have been difficult to maintain 13 towards the end of Operation Ellipse? 13 within a much larger group of officers. 14 A. I did, yes. 14 We would have struggled to keep a much larger group 15 Q. I think DS Carey took on the investigation. In her 15 of officers on because of other commitments that came up 16 statement, she speaks of the withdrawal of resources 16 in that particular year. 17 from the operation -- 17 My own commitment to the enquiry was on an almost 18 A. Yes. 18 daily basis until April, but after that there were other 19 Q. -- and describes how seven officers were requested back 19 matters that came up which meant that, whilst I remained 20 from their respective divisions and returned to their 20 the SIO throughout and I don't think it had any impact 21 subdivisions, and she says: 21 on the enquiry, what it meant was that I was able to go 22 "As to matters that with hindsight I feel that could 22 back, be fully briefed and move on, but it was whether 23 have been better, I do feel that had the resources not 23 or not you could maintain that level of resourcing for 24 been reduced dramatically following the conclusion of 24 18 months, and we would not have been able to and get 25 the RC-F18 part of the enquiry, it would have allowed 25 the same results, I don't believe. So whilst

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1 I appreciate what I think -- Angela Carey's concern, 1 was starting and that -- I think the position had 2 apart from the time, was also the impact on the officers 2 improved. 3 concerned, because they were working long hours and 3 MS KARMY-JONES: Thank you. Just for everyone's reference, 4 these are difficult enquiries to work on. I do accept 4 volume 13B, divider D, tab 4, AAT000073_001 and another 5 that that was the case. 5 note of the same meeting is at tab 9, page 1, AAT000386. 6 Q. Thank you. Is there anything else that you would like 6 That's all I have to ask. Are there any questions 7 to say by way of comment or recommendation that might 7 from the chair and the panel? 8 assist the chair and the panel in their consideration of 8 THE CHAIR: No, we have no questions. 9 these matters? 9 Thank you very much, Mr Honeysett. 10 A. I think I have already said that I think the 10 A. Thank you. 11 difficulties -- Abbot Timothy Wright was in a difficult 11 (The witness withdrew) 12 position, in that, in terms of his decision making about 12 THE CHAIR: That concludes our witness today. Thank you 13 supporting monks or -- and I think organisationally they 13 very much. 14 need to look at that so that nobody is in that position 14 (4.22 pm) 15 again, because his decisions not to were not in 15 (The hearing was adjourned to 16 a position to be challenged. So the amount of challenge 16 Tuesday, 5 December 2017 at 10.30 am) 17 that there was within the monastery to actually support 17 18 Nolan -- but I do take account of the fact that Nolan 18 19 had been fairly recently introduced. I think lots of 19 I N D E X 20 organisations were finding their way with that. I think 20 21 that does need to be considered. 21 FATHER LEO CHAMBERLAIN (sworn) ...... 1 22 I was asked a question, an additional question, 22 23 which you have not raised but I think is relevant, which 23 Examination by MS KARMY-JONES ...... 1 24 was, did the meeting in June 2006 reflect an improvement 24 25 in the relationship between Ampleforth and the police, 25 MR BARRY HONEYSETT (affirmed) ...... 66

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1 and I think that was the case. The position, in terms 1 2 of their resilience around safeguarding, I think had 2 Examination by MS KARMY-JONES ...... 66 3 improved during the course of -- and that reflects some 3 4 good work by members of the community. So whilst I am 4 5 critical of some decisions and individuals making those 5 6 decisions on occasions, there was also a great deal of 6 7 support from people within the community. So I wouldn't 7 8 want it to be something that -- but other than that, 8 9 I don't think there is anything that we haven't covered. 9 10 Q. The meeting in 2006, just for completeness, obviously 10 11 was after Abbot Cuthbert Madden came into place? 11 12 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. And it is a meeting in which I think you make reference 13 14 on a number of occasions to difficulties with previous 14 15 regimes, that being your phrase? 15 16 A. Yes. I think that was a phrase -- there were other 16 17 phrases that I don't think I did use, but that was 17 18 accurate. 18 19 It was to the extent that, by the time I left, there 19 20 was a handover -- I was retiring in May, but there were 20 21 clearly follow-ups -- there could have been follow-ups. 21 22 So there was a handover to another officer, Alan Carey, 22 23 which I went to, and there was a feeling at that time 23 24 that they were open to involvement with statutory 24 25 authorities, that they wanted training and that training 25

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A 77:13 78:2,4,7,7,9 60:4 64:18 79:7,9 acknowledged 95:1 adult 6:18 A30 64:17 78:10,23,25 79:6 109:20 acquaintances 21:4 adults 17:19 18:6 A4 116:8,8 79:20 84:15,18 abuser 22:11 act 8:22,23 9:19 39:16 82:17 97:1 AAT000073_001 86:16,19 87:1,3,7 abusive 134:5 46:25 103:17 105:1,3 111:13 139:4 87:22 91:6 92:13 accept 50:21 69:7 110:23 111:24 advance 12:10 AAT000103_001 93:10 94:6 96:8,9 73:24 83:11 84:11 113:5,6 advent 107:10 14:8 96:17 97:6 100:2 100:10 112:1 acted 8:5 63:11 advertise 31:11 AAT000213 1:8 100:24 102:16,22 137:4 103:23 104:6 advice 8:9 11:14 AAT000288_001 104:11 110:24 acceptable 16:7 acting 4:17 103:25 13:15,25 15:16 9:7 111:8,15 112:25 56:1,14 57:6 action 15:10 40:18 34:6 36:23,24 AAT000320_490 114:7 119:3,5,7 acceptance 129:5 41:12 73:3 80:9,9 42:4 44:3,16 45:4 116:2 119:13 125:20 accepted 77:18 89:22 90:10 93:15 45:5,17 55:21 AAT000386 139:5 128:4,14 137:11 94:16 95:17 95:15 120:9 130:7 59:15,18,21,22,23 AAT000477_005 138:11 103:10 112:21 130:17 132:19 59:23 77:3 80:8 26:6 abbot's 4:21,25 5:8 accepting 112:23 actions 89:24 93:14 92:16 98:1,20 AAT000499 17:13 6:4 78:12 79:19 access 83:5 84:13 93:21 107:24 99:24 101:3,20 AAT000503-041 88:2,4 87:1,8,13 98:23 activities 47:5 90:8 105:24 106:13 38:21 Abbots 13:24 111:2 114:18 activity 81:14 111:10 130:3,4 abbacy 30:11 abided 128:6 120:3 122:4 125:6 118:17 123:2 131:15 132:20 abbey 6:6 29:7 able 17:22 19:12 126:16 127:1 acts 120:15,17 advise 5:1 32:24 33:16 34:10 24:19 44:18,19 accessed 123:6 122:23 advised 11:15 38:7 44:6 56:3 46:25 56:3 59:24 124:16 actual 122:11 22:17 132:24 75:1 83:7 86:11 61:6,7 95:10 96:3 accessible 36:25 add 65:12 95:12 advisers 8:8,15 87:15 90:22 101:23 107:19 accessing 124:14 133:17 advising 6:9 103:20 109:17 136:10,21,24 accompanied 99:3 added 28:6 103:24 advisory 86:18 121:12,13 125:19 abounded 115:1 accord 56:2 addicts 85:24 affairs 58:25 59:23 125:23 126:25 abroad 24:22 25:7 account 16:11 additional 103:23 affection 78:22 abbeys 31:16 32:20 absence 52:13 24:19 25:5 55:4 135:19,20 137:22 affiliated 31:15 abbot 3:22,25 5:1 absolute 57:10 71:7 80:4 101:18 adequate 20:22 affirmed 66:15 5:14 6:8 7:13,15 absolutely 15:19 120:6 122:25 61:18 125:9 130:3 139:25 7:22 8:16 16:5 17:7 76:19 94:13 123:3 124:5 130:4 afraid 42:17 29:8,24,25 30:7 101:19 137:18 adjacent 89:19 afternoon 102:5 32:13 40:11 41:2 abundance 110:7 accountability 62:4 adjourned 139:15 135:13 42:3 44:2,16 110:10 62:10 adjournment 66:10 age 2:11,12 3:9 45:18 47:19 48:3 abuse 10:8,18 11:4 accountable 78:3 administration 5:3 123:8 132:5 48:7,7,20,23 49:2 11:8 13:11 14:17 accounts 72:6 13:19 86:16 agencies 9:20 70:23 49:7,10,12,18 17:19 18:5,9,13 accurate 29:10 Administrator agenda 5:4 52:2 54:19,20 18:20 19:11 20:6 109:1 124:18 34:5 ago 1:21 24:9 51:22 55:5,11 56:19 22:5 26:24 30:6 138:18 admission 11:19 130:25 57:10 58:18 59:12 34:15 37:12 49:16 accused 34:14 23:13 24:23 98:4 ago' 79:10 59:19,20 60:24 64:20 81:1 99:5 accuses 105:18 108:2,8 agree 29:7 48:15 62:12,13,15 68:23 101:18 103:2 achieve 90:7 admit 11:17 51:22 52:7 53:7 70:4 73:7,14,22 111:24 117:9 110:24 112:7,12 admitted 52:25 56:8 62:6 64:13 73:24 74:9,15 134:4 113:5,6 98:2 124:13 91:25 132:2 135:3 75:10 76:11,12 abused 10:7 18:19 achieved 91:19 adolescent 123:7 agreed 46:21 50:18

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C's 103:2 131:5,23 132:3,4 challenge 137:16 55:16 73:17 74:4 79:2,17,23 82:24 call 8:11,24 15:5 132:23 137:5 challenged 137:16 80:21 82:13 84:14 83:18 84:22 92:1 27:8 138:1 challenges 60:8,17 84:25 88:16 91:11 93:14,19 103:6 called 1:5 38:2 43:9 cases 41:19 42:6 60:19,20,25 91:21 94:5,12 108:22 113:5 64:19 134:3 49:16 50:22,23,25 Chamberlain 1:6,9 95:14 105:1 114:25 122:6 calls 54:17 77:17 55:10 61:20 65:23 1:10 68:20 69:6 113:13,19,24 123:6 125:18 95:21 95:21,25 116:17 128:14 139:21 115:1 124:17 129:12 138:21 camp 85:23 116:23 126:9 chance 53:25 94:18 125:6 126:6,7 clever 6:17 canon 59:20,21 130:1,9,18,20,23 change 4:13 27:14 127:1,2,3,18,18 climate 93:8 60:1,2,4 130:24 131:1,10 30:13 56:8,24 127:21 128:10,11 cloister 83:4 capable 92:8 131:16 132:17 57:5 62:15 129:6 choice 16:6 19:17 close 4:15 13:18 Cardinal 4:14 Castle 2:12 102:13 129:6 34:12 79:21 34:3 41:2 43:10 care 23:19 54:24 catastrophe 93:10 changed 27:15 108:19 112:5 56:2 78:12 79:20 category 132:19 changes 28:7 choices 16:4 closed 33:19 34:21 80:11 90:3 Catholic 77:23 changing 62:8 chooses 5:2 closely 6:10 82:23 career 102:20 96:14 112:25 Chapter 82:20 chose 11:19 112:11 113:17 careful 6:16 88:5 cause 41:4 71:21 character 35:1 chosen 30:19,24 closing 12:5 carefully 36:21 93:3 charge 32:16 79:21 31:4 82:17 code 20:18 37:7 83:15 89:17 causes 81:9 103:10 107:13 Christ' 82:25 Cogan 64:19 65:7 Carey 130:14 caution 110:8,10 charged 17:7 45:11 Christians 4:5 collapses 78:23 134:9,15 138:22 celibacy 92:14 58:12 church 60:2 62:5 collection 116:9 Carey's 137:1 central 90:17,24 charging 130:1 77:23 college 2:8,22 carried 46:11 centre 46:12 90:9 131:15 cipher 5:16 13:19 19:5 30:20 55:10 96:13,15 105:14 chat 92:14 ciphered 68:22 30:25 31:5 59:3 Carroll 8:5 106:24 certain 78:16 86:13 chatting 124:13 110:5 62:16 67:15 92:13 116:25 117:6 certainly 1:17 7:10 check 28:1 58:7,8 ciphers 69:13 126:8 carry 42:8 9:1 13:16 23:22 111:18 110:1 116:23,24 come 10:22 11:15 case 8:7,21 10:20 25:7 28:19 48:10 checked 90:20 circumstances 11:19 21:11 26:13 14:14 21:1 22:8 49:6 54:14 58:16 checks 85:17 34:14,21 56:1 44:4 54:22 57:20 23:24 26:13 27:16 59:1 62:17 64:11 chief 41:7 59:5 68:6 80:5,7 84:11 61:22 75:21 76:9 28:4 29:22,24 73:15 81:24 84:1 child 6:18 8:17 84:24 88:21,22 76:21 82:25 83:13 31:22 37:6 38:7 84:14 85:12 91:10 13:22 19:5 24:18 89:15 94:10 134:4 84:4,4 85:1 86:8 38:11 39:2 41:3 99:18,20 102:6 24:20 25:5 26:2,6 claimed 103:2 88:24 91:22 94:9 47:10,20 49:21 105:1 112:18 32:10 36:8,8,14 clarification 76:1 97:24 101:16,25 60:6 62:21 65:16 122:9 125:21 47:2,7 52:3,13,17 clarity 87:4 98:20 104:17 113:13 67:17,18 74:1 129:7,9,17 52:18 55:6 61:25 clause 94:4 115:22 120:6 81:15,25 85:13 cetera 80:17 85:25 62:3 65:3,8 73:20 clean 103:15 132:5,6 135:20 89:21 96:4,5,11 chair 1:3,5 35:18 75:11,24 76:2 clear 12:9,25 22:21 comes 79:5 80:25 97:5 98:1,5,7,7,9 45:1 65:13 66:4,8 79:7,12,14,25 38:16 47:11 55:9 86:15 113:12 100:5,20,21,21,22 66:12 74:12 102:6 86:15,17 90:18 63:20 76:20 78:13 coming 10:16 12:8 102:10,11,24 110:3,12,14 93:3 97:16 102:25 79:23 80:7,12,17 21:16 31:8 43:4 104:6,10,21 106:4 123:21 131:13 111:8,16,17,24 81:1 86:4 88:15 58:14 81:2 94:7 106:5,7,24 107:23 133:13,15 135:17 128:25 89:8 90:12 111:14 95:18 109:4,25 110:13 137:8 139:7,8,12 children 8:22 31:17 clearly 19:6 43:4 Commander 67:13 114:5 126:19 chairman 4:18 32:5,7 52:9,20 47:23 53:12 69:23 68:3

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