IICSA - Benedictine Hearings 4 December 2017 1 Monday, 4 December 2017 1 A. After a summer holiday, yes. 2 (10.30 am) 2 Q. Finally, you were ordained in 1968; is that right? 3 THE CHAIR: Good morning, everyone. Good morning, 3 A. Yes. 4 Ms Karmy-Jones. 4 Q. Apart from those periods when you were away through 5 MS KARMY-JONES: Chair, the next witness to be called in 5 serious illness, were you only really away from 6 these proceedings is Father Leo Chamberlain. His 6 Ampleforth for the three to four years of your 7 statement is at volume 15A, tab 1, and for those without 7 university degree? 8 the bundles, the reference is AAT000213. 8 A. Well, it was something like approaching two years, at 9 Father Chamberlain appears on the videolink. 9 the age of 10, when I went to a local school, a very 10 FATHER LEO CHAMBERLAIN (sworn) 10 good little school, and part of that, yes, but I would 11 (Evidence given via videolink) 11 say that Oxford was one of the most important 12 Examination by MS KARMY-JONES 12 experiences of my life and many of my friendships date 13 MS KARMY-JONES: Father Leo, thank you for joining us. We 13 from that time. 14 understand that you have some medical issues. If, at 14 Q. Thinking back to that time when you were educated at 15 any stage, you need a break, would you please let us 15 Ampleforth, was there any behaviour by monks in that 16 know? 16 time which would today be considered a safeguarding 17 A. Certainly. I would like to start by echoing what 17 issue? 18 Father George Corrie said the other day about the shame 18 A. Nothing that I saw. 19 this brings upon Ampleforth, and also say that I will do 19 Q. You were appointed a housemaster in 1972. Who made that 20 my best but I only received this bundle two or three 20 appointment? 21 days ago and I am a parish priest at the weekend. Okay? 21 A. The headmaster, Father Patrick Barry. 22 I will do what I can. 22 Q. At that stage, the abbot was Basil Hume, I think; is 23 Q. Thank you. We will just have to give a little bit more 23 that right? 24 of a pause between questions and answers so we make sure 24 A. Yes. 25 we don't overlap in speaking, because if we do overlap, 25 Q. What association did Abbot Basil Hume have with the Page 1 Page 3 1 some of what one of us says will be lost. Okay? 1 school when you were appointed headmaster? 2 A. Leave a pause after the question, or can I speak 2 A. By that time, he was already at Westminster, of course. 3 straight away as soon as I see it? 3 I knew him, and at the -- to which I refer when I made 4 Q. Leave a slight pause. 4 my evidence, the conference -- I had worked for relief 5 A. Right. Okay. 5 of persecuted Christians in Eastern Europe, among other 6 Q. Let's see how that works. 6 things, and (break in connection) ... 7 I am going to ask you first about your background 7 Q. Sorry, we are losing the volume. We can't actually hear 8 and your association with Ampleforth College. Were you 8 you, Father Leo. 9 educated at Ampleforth? 9 A. Shall I try again? 10 A. Yes. 10 Q. Yes. 11 Q. From about what age? 11 A. I was -- in the 1980s, I did a great deal for Eastern 12 A. Well, I went to Gilling Castle Prep School at the age of 12 Europe, especially Poland, in the end, and in 1990, we 13 nine, but had to be withdrawn at the end of that term 13 held the conference "A Time for Change" and 14 because of a serious illness, tubercular -- TB 14 Cardinal Hume came to preside over it, and so I had 15 associated, so I only got back well over a year, two 15 close contact with him and many others over that period. 16 years later, almost. I then went to Ampleforth itself, 16 Q. What year were you appointed headmaster? 17 junior house in Ampleforth, in my teens with the 17 A. 1992. In formal terms, I was acting headmaster for one 18 recurrences of this problem but gradually working 18 term because my predecessor was chairman of Headmasters' 19 through it with the help of new drugs. 19 Conference. 20 Q. When you left Ampleforth, did you go to Oxford to read 20 Q. During your time as a teacher, were you also a member of 21 history? 21 the abbot's council? 22 A. I had a scholarship at the University College of Oxford. 22 A. I became a member about five or six years before 23 Q. That was between 1958 and 1961? 23 I became headmaster. 24 A. Yes. 24 Q. Just help us with what that means, being a member of 25 Q. After that, did you return to Ampleforth? 25 the abbot's council? Page 2 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) DTI www.DTIGlobal.com 8th Floor, 165 Fleet Street (+44)207 4041400 London EC4A 2DY IICSA - Benedictine Hearings 4 December 2017 1 A. Principally, to advise the abbot on any matter he 1 already told us you began in 1992 succeeding, I think, 2 chooses to bring forward, and in particular the whole 2 Father Dominic Milroy? 3 question of administration of the community -- I'm 3 A. Yes. 4 sorry, I can't recall an immediate agenda for you, but 4 Q. At that point, you'd been at Ampleforth for something 5 you would expect that anything of importance going on 5 like 30 years as a teacher; is that right? 6 would be discussed or mentioned. 6 A. As teacher, housemaster and head of history. 7 Q. Were safeguarding matters mentioned and discussed in the 7 Q. When you began as headmaster, was there any training in 8 abbot's council? 8 respect of safeguarding? 9 A. Before I was headmaster? 9 A. The answer is no. I think that that sort of thing 10 Q. Yes. 10 certainly had not been set up anywhere that I knew 11 A. I don't think that the word was even really known. 11 about. 12 I didn't know it, and I don't recall any discussion of 12 Q. How much contact would there have been between you as 13 safeguarding. But I do recall -- this was the style 13 headmaster and the abbot? 14 that things were done in those days -- the abbot 14 A. Frequent, and I regarded it as very important that the 15 mentioning an indiscretion committed by Father -- is 15 abbot should know exactly of anything that mattered 16 there a cipher? 16 going on in the school. On his side, though, he was 17 Q. Is it Father Gregory? 17 equally anxious that where a responsibility was mine, it 18 A. Yes. Okay, if I can name names, yes. He had been taken 18 should remain mine. 19 straight out of the school, I believe given therapy, and 19 Q. Is it right that you would tell him about any issues of 20 was then on a -- then I'm not quite sure where he was. 20 concern but he would not share the same kind of 21 But the mention in council was simply that this had 21 information with you? 22 happened, and no further discussion about it. It is not 22 A. I would say Abbot Patrick shared everything he could, 23 in council minutes, I understand. 23 but I don't recall any particular discussion on 24 Q. Was anyone else at the school told about Father Gregory? 24 safeguarding issues. It was my bringing him the bad 25 A. I wasn't headmaster. I don't recollect any briefing to 25 news. Page 5 Page 7 1 the staff; simply, he was no longer there. 1 Q. How did he respond to bad news? 2 Q. He was sent to somewhere in 1987, so this is just 2 A. Father Patrick? 3 before -- a few years before you became headmaster? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Yes. That was why I knew it. I was on the abbot's 4 A. Well, as we have just covered, with 5 council. 5 Father Gregory Carroll, he acted in what was really the 6 Q. Was anyone at the abbey told about Father Gregory? 6 traditional way, not just at Ampleforth. 7 A. Well, I can assume that the community understood what 7 When the first case, Bernard Green, came to me, 8 had happened, and I'm quite sure the abbot would have 8 I had just then taken on other advisers (break in 9 shared this with people advising him personally and 9 connection) depth of advice, but my reaction was that 10 closely. 10 this was not something which could be dealt with in what 11 Q. You mentioned that there was no record of this 11 you would call the customary way and it was, in legal 12 discussion. What was record keeping like in that early 12 terms, a crime, even if at the slighter end of that 13 period in the '80s and early '90s? 13 spectrum, but nevertheless a crime, and it had to be 14 A.