Retrobrew Computers Forum Development Seems a Big Hurdle

Subject: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by jcoffman on Fri, 13 Mar 2020 18:45:37 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message For some time now I've been considering playing with an updated version of the 32000 series. SRAM memory chips are now much bigger now, and the ECB bus looks like a good place to update to a 16-bit system.

Here is a link to an S-100 system I built many years ago: http://www.cpu-ns32k.net/index.html

The old chips (NS32016 &c.) are VERY expensive, if you can find them. The 32CG16 chips are cheaper, and do not require separate TCU. I would be curious to know if there is anyone interested in playing with this old National Semiconductor line.

--John

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by jcoffman on Fri, 13 Mar 2020 18:46:50 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message This is the direct link to my S-100 system: http://www.cpu-ns32k.net/John.html

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by Jonas on Fri, 13 Mar 2020 20:59:57 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message Hi John

I have never done anything with the NS32000-series, but I followed the discussion at this forum about NS32532, NS32CG160 et cetera a few years ago. I actually bought ten NS32CG160 from Utsource and five NS32081 from someone in Poland. Your board (yes, I have read most of the stuff at www.cpu-ns32k.net) is far far beyond my capabilities. I have been looking at the reference design in the datasheet for the NS32CG160 as a starting point. And the software part of this ...?

Despite my lack of knowledge, I would love to build something with a NS32000. The NS32CG160 is available and affordable with several integrated peripherals. A good starting point.

Jonas

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by plasmo on Sat, 14 Mar 2020 01:08:25 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message I have a tube of NS32008 and had a plan to add NS32008 to the G8PP family, but the software

Page 1 of 10 ---- Generated from RetroBrew Computers Forum development seems a big hurdle. My lack of time doesn't help, either. Bill

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by jcoffman on Sat, 14 Mar 2020 17:37:56 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message The NS32008 CPU is a tempting choice, but it requires the NS32201 TCU (Timing Control Unit). They are both hard to find, and often expensive. The advantage of the '008 is the simplicity of an 8-bit bus. For a major system, the only choice is the '532, but it uses a 32-bit bus. This wide bus in not appropriate for a 'toy' system.

My S-100 system is passe, and I am not considering cannibalizing it. The higher integration 'CG' chips look like a better bet. They are essentially a 32016 with TCU, FPU interface, but no MMU connection ability. The CG160 is tempting, and I have a trial design for a Single Board Computer. With a socket for FPU & UART, the board is out of space for 2 x 512K byte SRAMs.

More recently I have considered a 2-board system using the CG16 with the MF/PIC board providing UART & NVRAM/RTC, PPIDE; interfacing the ICU ('202 Interrupt Contoller) takes a bit of tinkering.

I think the choices are:

1. A 2-board NS32CG16 system with FPU socket, 2 x 512Kb SRAM, and I/O interfacing using the MF/PIC. Form factor stays 100mm x 160mm, RetroBrew traditional size. 2. An SBC (Single Board Computer) using the NS32CG160 with FPU socket, 2 x 512Kb SRAM, UART, NVRAM/RTC, PPIDE. The form factor would expand to 6U, 233mm x 160mm (VME size). With an ECB bus, it would fit the Siemens 505-6508 card cage ( https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l 1313&_nkw=Siemens+6508&_sacat=0).

Software:

GCC 3.4.6 cross compiler. (No module calls, however). AFAIK, this is the last version of GCC to support the NS32000. GAS assembler. (It appears to support the Module-call/return instructions) Complete loader, library, &c. cross support.

At this time, I do not know of an OS to bring up. CP/M-68 is probably adaptable, since it is mostly C-code. However, I would rather support the FAT-16/32 file system.

Page 2 of 10 ---- Generated from RetroBrew Computers Forum Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by Jonas on Sat, 14 Mar 2020 21:55:28 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message Both alternatives are tempting and both CPUs are available at Utsource for a reasonable price. I would prefer the SBC using the NS32CG160, despite the larger size of the board.

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by plasmo on Sat, 14 Mar 2020 22:34:33 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message Anchor Electronics has NS32016N-10 for $8.95 and NS32201D-10 for $19.95. I've purchased several pairs. NS32201D is in ceramic DIP with gold lid which is probably why it is so expensive.

I have updated my G8PP baseboard so all I need is a NS32008 processor board, but darn it, I have too many other projects going on! Bill

File Attachments 1) G8PP_annotated copy.jpg, downloaded 165 times

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by jcoffman on Sun, 15 Mar 2020 01:33:46 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message I would strongly like to keep with the 100mm x 160mm board. One way to do this with the CG160 would be to eliminate the FPU (PLCC68). An alternative would be to use a surface mount 512K x 16 memory chip. The good thing about the CG160 is that it does not require the '202 ICU. Surface mounting takes some practice, however. I used up several QFP-132's practicing the art.

--John

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by Jonas on Sun, 15 Mar 2020 08:40:56 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message Standards are (almost always) a good thing. FPUs are not abundant and if you find one it's probably a $30+ part anyway. My FPUs (NS32081) from Poland were a lot cheaper but 10 or 15 MHz only and I have no idea if they are dead or alive. I would be happy without a FPU socket. Surface mount with a soldering iron is not funny and takes some practice as you say. I have had 100% success, though, with Sergey's ISA SVGA (two) and Geoff Graham's Colour Maximite (four). Six functioning boards with millipedes. I soldered one

Page 3 of 10 ---- Generated from RetroBrew Computers Forum of them 90 degrees wrong by mistake (of course...). One hundred pins firmly soldered on the board. I de-soldered the chip using a glass ceramic hotplate at moderate heat. I could lift the chip from the board after a few seconds. Chip and board where not damaged.

Jonas

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by Jonas on Sun, 15 Mar 2020 12:49:13 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message How about two 512k x 8 SRAM, SOP-32, instead of one 512k x 16? Easy surface mount. https:// eu.mouser.com/Semiconductors/Memory-ICs/SRAM/_/N-4bzpt?P=1z0 w12oZ1yzay1rZ1z0y0oqZ1yzmm18

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by dgf1966 on Sun, 15 Mar 2020 13:40:14 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message John,

I would be interested in a NS32000 series board, your option 2 would be my preference although either would be fine if push came to shove.

A little over two years ago I got involved in the NS32000 thread that I think was raised on this forum but since then i've got bogged down in too many projects and the idea got shelved.

As a result of that thread I did produce a prototype board for a proof of concept idea that I had based on the National Semiconductor application note AN-733 but using the NS32CG160/ATF1504/NS16450, but the firmware/CPLD code was never completed and so the project lies in the 'to do' pile. http:// bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/components/national/_appNotes/AN -0733.pdf

Regards

Dave Fry File Attachments 1) NS32CG160SBC.jpg, downloaded 146 times

Page 4 of 10 ---- Generated from RetroBrew Computers Forum Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by lynchaj on Sun, 15 Mar 2020 14:06:41 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message Hi John Back in 2017 I captured the Bruce Culbertson NS32016 design as a baby-ATX board in KiCAD. You are welcome to it. Maybe you can salvage the components for your design or use it as a starting point.

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by plasmo on Sun, 15 Mar 2020 14:35:06 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message If you are comfortable using CPLD, then the design becomes significantly smaller. An ATF1508 have enough logic for DRAM controller and serial EEPROM bootstrap so the design reduce to a 8-pin serial boot flash, CPLD, 1megx16 DRAM and CG160.

If compact flash is used, then it can also boot out of CF and eliminate the 8-bin serial boot flash, which also simplifies the CPLD design as well. Easily fit in 100mm X 100mm pc board with a couple I/O expansion slots. Bill

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by rpiguy2 on Fri, 27 Mar 2020 16:01:10 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message New member here. Can you run a NS32016 without an MMU?

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by rpiguy2 on Fri, 27 Mar 2020 16:04:34 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message I just remembered that Byte Magazine published a nice design for the NS32016, but again it uses the MMU.

Here is the DSI-32 article: https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1985-08/page/n127/ mode/2up/search/NS32016?q=NS32016

An eBay seller here in NJ has over 200 NS32016s for sale: https://www.ebay.com/itm/MICROPROCESSOR-MICROCONTROLLER-IC-3 2016N10-48-PIN-PDIP-NATIONAL-NS32016N10/283485005019?hash=it em420105e4db:g:Vd0AAOSwLNtc2xOg

Page 5 of 10 ---- Generated from RetroBrew Computers Forum Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by jcoffman on Fri, 27 Mar 2020 19:10:24 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message Yes, the NS32016 may be used without the MMU. The SETCFG instruction can indicate that it is absent.

Today, I think I would use the NS32CG16 instead of the NS32016: no TCU is needed.

Since I started this thread a couple of weeks ago I have been honing in on a 32000 design:

1. NS32CG160 -- seemed more popular than the NS32CG16. 2. ECB board size. 3. UART in PLCC44 package. 4. IDE interface - 16-bit. 5. 1meg SRAM; 128k ROM. 6. Interfaced to the ECB bus. 7. The FPU just may fit. This is to be determined.

I'm having serious PC power supply problems at the moment. So I may be out of contact for a bit.

--John

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by etchedpixels on Sat, 28 Mar 2020 15:43:47 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message I also have a half baked board design here for the CG16 and the FX16 (it seems to be a matter of a jumper or two to support both) for the 80pin RC2014 bus. I've not really had enough time to finish it off as I've got a pile of software to do to bring up the RC2014 1802, 6303, 68008, 80C188 and Z8 processor boards.

There is also an FPGA re-implementation of an NS32K that was used on the new (well 2015 or so) BBC Micro matchbox tube interface.

I would be interested providing there isn't too much surface mount.

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by jcoffman on Sat, 28 Mar 2020 17:19:00 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message The direction of the NS32CG160 board is to use NO surface mount components. This differs from my initial design.

Page 6 of 10 ---- Generated from RetroBrew Computers Forum There will, however, be PLCC-84/68/44 sockets; but the pins are on 0.1" centers.

--John

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by gbm on Sun, 29 Mar 2020 08:23:25 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message I was thinking about the possible NS32k version of my platform, SDC_One. Looks like the 32201 is not really needed. Basically the only feature of 32201 not achievable with STM32 is the voltage level required on clock outputs - this may be easily solved with a proper version of 74xxx2G04. The only problem is I had a single NS32016 once back in 1987 and it was lost in action. I can't find any cheap NS32k in China. SDC_One design may be easily adapted for 32008 or 32016. Using H745 Discovery a a base board we could even get almost a megabyte of RAM for NS32k. I currently get M68k operation equivalent to 1.6 MHz no WS with 120 MHz L4R5, so with 480 MHz H745 the speed should be close to 4 times that - just right for NS32k. So, I'll get back to the topic when I find some reasonably priced NS32k.

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by jcoffman on Sun, 29 Mar 2020 11:42:13 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message RE: cheap NS32K chips.

Try UTsource.net for under $4 NS32CG16 or NS32CG160. In my poll, folks chose the '160. I don't know if utsource has the 32181 FPU or not. I forget where I got mine.

--John

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by gbm on Sun, 29 Mar 2020 16:08:30 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message Thanks, looks like they have quite interesting retro stock, just wonder how reliable they are (remarking?) - probably not an issue for NS32k. After looking at CG16 and CG160 datasheets I decided to go for CG16. CG160 extras are useless for me and CG16 is simply smaller. Anyway, I need to finish my 8086/8/V20 module first, then complete the sub-matchbox-sized 8008 board.

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by jcoffman on Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:38:17 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message

Page 7 of 10 ---- Generated from RetroBrew Computers Forum I agree about the CG16 -- it is more like the NS32016. However, trying to keep to the EBC 100mm x 160mm form factor, the CG160 eliminates the '202 ICU. However, I don't think the FPU will fit. But for hacking around, the FPU is not critical, just a challenge to see it work.

The best software looks like the GCC cross compiler (very old; NS32k support was deleted years ago). Bummer that it does not support the module call mechanism. But it looks like a faster route to get s/w up and running.

--John

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by etchedpixels on Sun, 29 Mar 2020 19:07:33 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message I didn't think you needed the ICU anyway - you still get interrupts just not all the fancy extra vectoring. What doesn't seem to be documented anywhere is whether you can use the MMU with the CG16 - presumably not ?

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by jcoffman on Mon, 30 Mar 2020 02:11:42 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message The MMU does not work with the NS OEM chips: CG16, CG160, ...

The ICU also has timers. The NS32082 MMU had problems with the early silicon. I don't know if NS ever ironed out all the bugs.

The good NS32k chip is the 532, but the FPU was never integrated into the CPU. National got into the 32-bit market with too little, too late.

--John

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by computerdoc on Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:06:55 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message I would be interested in an NS32000 Series board. This sounds very interesting. I'll keep reading.

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by bifo on Thu, 02 Apr 2020 13:40:54 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message

Page 8 of 10 ---- Generated from RetroBrew Computers Forum I'd be interested. I've been fascinated with these CPUs for a long time.

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by jcoffman on Fri, 15 May 2020 03:20:05 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message jcoffman wrote on Fri, 27 March 2020 12:10Yes, the NS32016 may be used without the MMU. The SETCFG instruction can indicate that it is absent.

Today, I think I would use the NS32CG16 instead of the NS32016: no TCU is needed.

Since I started this thread a couple of weeks ago I have been honing in on a 32000 design:

Well, I am serious enough about a 32000 computer that I have a design in for fab. Two compromises had to be made to achieve the above goodies on the board: SRAM is in TSOP-II or SOP-32 packages (50 mil lead spacing). Probably not too hard to solder; and ROM is reduced to a single chip. The latter requires a DYNAMIC bus sizing GAL, and an increase of one chip from 20 pins to 24 pins (74ALS686). The space gained allowed me to tuck in the NS32181 FPU, and an RTC/NVRAM chip.

CAVEAT: These boards will not be available until I know that most of the goodies are working. Serious shortcuts are take for interfacing to the ECB RetroBrew bus, but the board is designed to work entirely STANDALONE. Hence, the information, as far as it goes, is under https://retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=boards:sbc:ns3200 0

--John

Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by jcoffman on Mon, 01 Jun 2020 22:19:35 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message I've had the NS32000 board in my hands for about 3 weeks now. So far, everything is checking out with one exception. I chose the cheapest SRAM at Digikey; bad mistake. I had to replace the low order SRAM chip, with all the extra wires needed to reconnect the damaged traces and pads.

Page 9 of 10 ---- Generated from RetroBrew Computers Forum Gruesome!

1. CPU is NS32cg160 2. FPU is NS32181 3. 1Mb SRAM, 128k ROM. I'm doing testing with just 64K in a single 28-pin chip. 4. UART is 16C550A or C. 5. RTC and NVRAM with SuperCap backup. 6. Interface to IDE-16, PIO or DMA. (not yet checked) 7. Stand-alone operation; or ECB bus operation. (I'm using the latter) 8. 25Mhz operation with 74LS logic; 15ns Atmel PLDs.

So far, my only regret is having to use the surface mount SRAM to make room for the FPU. I have a ZIF adapter on order so I can test SRAM before soldering.

Link to the Wiki: https://retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=boards:sbc:ns3200 0:ns32cg160_1.0#details_of_the_board

--John

Page 10 of 10 ---- Generated from RetroBrew Computers Forum