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Retrobrew Computers Forum Development Seems a Big Hurdle Subject: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by jcoffman on Fri, 13 Mar 2020 18:45:37 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message For some time now I've been considering playing with an updated version of the 32000 series. SRAM memory chips are now much bigger now, and the ECB bus looks like a good place to update to a 16-bit system. Here is a link to an S-100 system I built many years ago: http://www.cpu-ns32k.net/index.html The old chips (NS32016 &c.) are VERY expensive, if you can find them. The 32CG16 chips are cheaper, and do not require separate TCU. I would be curious to know if there is anyone interested in playing with this old National Semiconductor line. --John Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by jcoffman on Fri, 13 Mar 2020 18:46:50 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message This is the direct link to my S-100 system: http://www.cpu-ns32k.net/John.html Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by Jonas on Fri, 13 Mar 2020 20:59:57 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message Hi John I have never done anything with the NS32000-series, but I followed the discussion at this forum about NS32532, NS32CG160 et cetera a few years ago. I actually bought ten NS32CG160 from Utsource and five NS32081 from someone in Poland. Your board (yes, I have read most of the stuff at www.cpu-ns32k.net) is far far beyond my capabilities. I have been looking at the reference design in the datasheet for the NS32CG160 as a starting point. And the software part of this ...? Despite my lack of knowledge, I would love to build something with a NS32000. The NS32CG160 is available and affordable with several integrated peripherals. A good starting point. Jonas Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by plasmo on Sat, 14 Mar 2020 01:08:25 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message I have a tube of NS32008 and had a plan to add NS32008 to the G8PP family, but the software Page 1 of 10 ---- Generated from RetroBrew Computers Forum development seems a big hurdle. My lack of time doesn't help, either. Bill Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by jcoffman on Sat, 14 Mar 2020 17:37:56 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message The NS32008 CPU is a tempting choice, but it requires the NS32201 TCU (Timing Control Unit). They are both hard to find, and often expensive. The advantage of the '008 is the simplicity of an 8-bit bus. For a major system, the only choice is the '532, but it uses a 32-bit bus. This wide bus in not appropriate for a 'toy' system. My S-100 system is passe, and I am not considering cannibalizing it. The higher integration 'CG' chips look like a better bet. They are essentially a 32016 with TCU, FPU interface, but no MMU connection ability. The CG160 is tempting, and I have a trial design for a Single Board Computer. With a socket for FPU & UART, the board is out of space for 2 x 512K byte SRAMs. More recently I have considered a 2-board system using the CG16 with the MF/PIC board providing UART & NVRAM/RTC, PPIDE; interfacing the ICU ('202 Interrupt Contoller) takes a bit of tinkering. I think the choices are: 1. A 2-board NS32CG16 system with FPU socket, 2 x 512Kb SRAM, and I/O interfacing using the MF/PIC. Form factor stays 100mm x 160mm, RetroBrew traditional size. 2. An SBC (Single Board Computer) using the NS32CG160 with FPU socket, 2 x 512Kb SRAM, UART, NVRAM/RTC, PPIDE. The form factor would expand to 6U, 233mm x 160mm (VME size). With an ECB bus, it would fit the Siemens 505-6508 card cage ( https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l 1313&_nkw=Siemens+6508&_sacat=0). Software: GCC 3.4.6 cross compiler. (No module calls, however). AFAIK, this is the last version of GCC to support the NS32000. GAS assembler. (It appears to support the Module-call/return instructions) Complete loader, library, &c. cross support. At this time, I do not know of an OS to bring up. CP/M-68 is probably adaptable, since it is mostly C-code. However, I would rather support the FAT-16/32 file system. Page 2 of 10 ---- Generated from RetroBrew Computers Forum Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by Jonas on Sat, 14 Mar 2020 21:55:28 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message Both alternatives are tempting and both CPUs are available at Utsource for a reasonable price. I would prefer the SBC using the NS32CG160, despite the larger size of the board. Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by plasmo on Sat, 14 Mar 2020 22:34:33 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message Anchor Electronics has NS32016N-10 for $8.95 and NS32201D-10 for $19.95. I've purchased several pairs. NS32201D is in ceramic DIP with gold lid which is probably why it is so expensive. I have updated my G8PP baseboard so all I need is a NS32008 processor board, but darn it, I have too many other projects going on! Bill File Attachments 1) G8PP_annotated copy.jpg, downloaded 165 times Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by jcoffman on Sun, 15 Mar 2020 01:33:46 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message I would strongly like to keep with the 100mm x 160mm board. One way to do this with the CG160 would be to eliminate the FPU (PLCC68). An alternative would be to use a surface mount 512K x 16 memory chip. The good thing about the CG160 is that it does not require the '202 ICU. Surface mounting takes some practice, however. I used up several QFP-132's practicing the art. --John Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by Jonas on Sun, 15 Mar 2020 08:40:56 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message Standards are (almost always) a good thing. FPUs are not abundant and if you find one it's probably a $30+ part anyway. My FPUs (NS32081) from Poland were a lot cheaper but 10 or 15 MHz only and I have no idea if they are dead or alive. I would be happy without a FPU socket. Surface mount with a soldering iron is not funny and takes some practice as you say. I have had 100% success, though, with Sergey's ISA SVGA (two) and Geoff Graham's Colour Maximite (four). Six functioning boards with millipedes. I soldered one Page 3 of 10 ---- Generated from RetroBrew Computers Forum of them 90 degrees wrong by mistake (of course...). One hundred pins firmly soldered on the board. I de-soldered the chip using a glass ceramic hotplate at moderate heat. I could lift the chip from the board after a few seconds. Chip and board where not damaged. Jonas Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by Jonas on Sun, 15 Mar 2020 12:49:13 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message How about two 512k x 8 SRAM, SOP-32, instead of one 512k x 16? Easy surface mount. https:// eu.mouser.com/Semiconductors/Memory-ICs/SRAM/_/N-4bzpt?P=1z0 w12oZ1yzay1rZ1z0y0oqZ1yzmm18 Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by dgf1966 on Sun, 15 Mar 2020 13:40:14 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message John, I would be interested in a NS32000 series board, your option 2 would be my preference although either would be fine if push came to shove. A little over two years ago I got involved in the NS32000 thread that I think was raised on this forum but since then i've got bogged down in too many projects and the idea got shelved. As a result of that thread I did produce a prototype board for a proof of concept idea that I had based on the National Semiconductor application note AN-733 but using the NS32CG160/ATF1504/NS16450, but the firmware/CPLD code was never completed and so the project lies in the 'to do' pile. http:// bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/components/national/_appNotes/AN -0733.pdf Regards Dave Fry File Attachments 1) NS32CG160SBC.jpg, downloaded 146 times Page 4 of 10 ---- Generated from RetroBrew Computers Forum Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by lynchaj on Sun, 15 Mar 2020 14:06:41 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message Hi John Back in 2017 I captured the Bruce Culbertson NS32016 design as a baby-ATX board in KiCAD. You are welcome to it. Maybe you can salvage the components for your design or use it as a starting point. Subject: Re: National Semi NS32000 series -- Any interest? Posted by plasmo on Sun, 15 Mar 2020 14:35:06 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message If you are comfortable using CPLD, then the design becomes significantly smaller. An ATF1508 have enough logic for DRAM controller and serial EEPROM bootstrap so the design reduce to a 8-pin serial boot flash, CPLD, 1megx16 DRAM and CG160. If compact flash is used, then it can also boot out of CF and eliminate the 8-bin serial boot flash, which also simplifies the CPLD design as well. Easily fit in 100mm X 100mm pc board with a couple I/O expansion slots.
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