University of Texas at El Paso ScholarWorks@UTEP

Combined Interviews Institute of Oral History

12-1976

Interview no. 282

George E. Barnhart

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Recommended Citation Interview with George E. Barnhart by Carlos Tapia, 1976, "Interview no. 282," Institute of Oral History, University of Texas at El Paso.

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II.ITERVIEIdEE: GeorqeE. Barnhart

INTERVIEI.IER: CarlosTaPia PROJECT: Class proiect

DATEOF II'ITERVIEI'I: DecemberI 976 TERI''6OF USE: Unrestricted

TAPENO.: 282 T:IAI'ISCRIPTI.iO.: 282

TRAIISCRISER:

DATETRA|'ISCRIBED:

BIOGRAPHICALSYiiOPSIS OF INTERVIEI'IEE: 01d-time E] Pasoresident.

SUI{I}trRYOF I|'ITER\IIEI,I: j I ett and BioqraPhy;the MexicanRevol ution; Prohbi tion ; J'imGi JudgeRoy Bean' John|.lesleY Hardin; tf," O.pt.ssion;World l'lar II;

50 minutes I4 pages 'interview { Oral History with Mr- GeorgeE. Barnhart, interviewedby Carlos Tapia in December1976" )

T: Mr. Barnhar{wherewere you born and when?

B: hlestBends, Okl ahoma.

T: Whatwas the date?

B: We]l, it's supposedto be February24, 1896. Theydidn't keepany records

back in themdays. I had to checkback and I got two or three different

[dates, but] that's the one I usedto look for a job. T: Whatwas your father's occupation?

B: We'll,originally he wasa rancher,but then later on he wasa telegraph operator--railroad. T: Wheredid you growup, Mr. Barnhart? B: All over Texas,pdrt of NewlGxico. T: Youmentioned that your father madefrequent trips into M6xicowhen you werea child. B: Well, he spenta lot of time in Mdxico.

T: Wheredid you attend schooland howlong did you stay in school? B: I^Jell,vle were on the moveall the time. I wasborn in the Indian

Temitory, Oklahoma.Now, originally rry folks werefrom downaround Austin and SanAntonio, and then my grandfatherwent down into the Big

Bend,ranching down there. Fromthere my father went up to Oklahoma,

and that's whereI wasborn. Theywas married up there and he wentback to lvldxicoagain. Originally he wasdown there in Chihuahuastate, but for a time he wentdown into Sonora,Hermos'ill0. I don't remembertoo muchabout him whenI waslittle. He opentmuch of his time downthere. Later on, why, we moveddown into SouthTexas. I went to school down there for a little whi'le, then he wentback to workon the railroad; and from then on, we wasjust on the noveall the time, practica'lly. Welived BARNHART Page2

in Alpine morethan any other place. we lived in Marfa, [and] from then on we lived in various little pumpstations up anddown the road. Theschooling I got, mostly I got it at home.

T: So you're mostly self-educated,then?

B: [^lell,my mother was an ex-schoolteacher,and she give meless6ns. And I reada wholelot.

T: Yeah, I see by the booksyou haue.

B: Yes,we1l, whenI waslittle, a real small kid, I read Victor Hugo,s Les Miserablesthrough and through--I guessthree or four times, just like that. But then as far as schooling,I got up to maybethe fourth or fifth,-grade, andthat was it.

T: Couldyou tell meabout your occupations,the jobs you'veheld? B: Well, my father traded fcr a little rinch up in NewMexico, Cloudcroft; Eightnil&e Canyon,north of JamesCanyon. And he took meuupthere with

him to look after it, after he traded for it. Andthen later on, why, for a little while the family wasup there, but they all left. I stayed up there on the ranchby myselfuntil I got a job in town for a while, firing the townlighting plant. Andwell, that playedout, andmy father

traded the ranch out for d don't rememberwhat, and I cometo El Paso lookingfor a job. Whatyear was that? .19.|6, 0h, I cometo El Pasoin I guess.

So you musthave seen part of the MexicanRevolution. Yes, I seenquite a bit of it. Whatcan you tell meabout it, its effects here in El Paso? l,,lell,like I told_'youbefore, I mamiedinto a family that wasmixed up BARNHART Page3

in the Revolution.

T: Youmentioned something about Pascual 0rozco, I believe? B: Pascual0rozco was a close friend of my father whenboth of themwere

young,down in Chihuahuastate--principally down in 0jinagaand clear down to Parral.

T: Canyou tell meany interesting stories your father might havetold you aboutPascual ? B: He told mea wholelot. (Laughter) Ooyou want'it? T: Sure.

B: He was in with Pascualand somemore of themover on the other side. Theygot to the point to wherethe Mexicangovernment wanted them pretty bad, but they couldn't get them.

T: Youmentioned something about the deathof Pascual0rozco.

B: Pascual0rozco was killed on this side, down[on] the border, belowhere. T: By whomwas he killed?

He wasa prisoner over here, and he just walkedout. Theywasnlt keeping too close a watchover him. He and someof his followers just walkedoff one day and took off downhere--got to El Pasoand took downthe river. Now,that's the story I got on it. I readhalf a dozenstories, but I'm

talking aboutthe wayI got it at the time. Therewas some ranchers down there, Americanranchers, that had someinterests over in lvlSxicoand were friends of Pascual. Now,he wentdown to the ranchlooking for horses, but the rancherwasn't there; he wasin Sierra Blanca,I believe, but I'm not sure. It's beenso long ago. Thecow punchers down there thought

they wasa bunchof raiders, horse;thieves,[so] they started to fight and killed them. Andwhen the headman,i the owner,got back, he took it pretty BARNHART Page4

hard, so I understand. Itl-wasa goodfriend of his, his best friend, that they killed. That's the story we got.

T: hlasthere a lot of raiding doneby the Mexicansin Texasdown along the

Big Bend? Youtold meyou lived there. Irlerethere a lot of Mexican raids into Texasto steil horses?

B: 0h, yes, there wasraidsioh, boyi After the Revolutionstarted, Ves, there was. I wasjust a little kid at the time, of course--ayoung teenager--butI can rememberthe raiding up there. I rememberone t{,me in particular, they raidedup within a fewmiles of Alpine, andthe

youngfederal officer was downtrying to raise a posse to go after them. I iure wantEilto go, but I wasa little kid.

T: Wasthere any raids doneby Americansinto Mdxico?

B: Into Fl6xico?t^lell, that part, I donlt know. Maybethere was, I don't

know. It waspretty wild over on the other side, anddown there in 0jinaga, that was pretty roughback in themdays; and they comeacross on the raids. As far as raidingdonefromthis side, I don't think so. 0f course, there vvassome of that donebefore the Revolutionbroke loose; but after the Revolution...therewas times whenthey crossedover from this side into Mdxico,but I can't rememberthe details. Doyou rememberVil'la whenhe cameinto Judrez?

!'lell, I didn't meethim personallyof anythinglike that, [but] sure, I definitely knewabout it. T: Did you ever cross into Judrezwhile Villa wasthere?

B: No, I stayedout of JuSrezwhile Villa wasthere. T: Doyou recall the raid on Columbus? B: 0h, yes; definitely. BARNHART Page 5

T: trlhatwere your feelings about it, or the generalpopu'lar feeling?

B: [,lell, I can't quite recall. I believe I wasin NewMexfco when that raid took place, and there wasquite a lot of excitementabout it. Short of that, I don't recall.

T: Doyou rememberthe l9'18Span'ish Flu epidemicthat occurredhere fn El Paso?

B: Well,very dimly. I can't recall muchabout it. I knowit wasbad. That is aboutas far backas I can recall.

T. Howabout World War I? Doyou reca11anything that happenedduring WorldHar I?

D. Well, it's so far back,it's hardto recall.

t. Doyou recall Prohibition? Youtold mesome stories aboutProhib'ition

here in El Paso,when they bannedliquor here in the U.S. Youtold me there wasa lot of smugg'lingfrom M6xicohere.

B: 0h, yes, there was. Therewas lots of smuggling,fights, l_un{ battles

downalong the river. I can't rememberthe names,Fr{ the worst fight I ever rememberLnu{, someof the boyswas close relatives of some of the higher-upsdown at the'couithouse,andfone of themZwaskilled. Oneof my friends wasin that bunch,and he told meafterwards that he wasneverin sucha t'ight place 'in his I ife. He hadbeen through World l,larI, andhe hadn't seenanything like that downthere. Theywas all aroundthem, and it seemedthat they wasshooting at themfrom three or four feet awaysometimes. They managed to get out, and then they got bawledout goodfor leaving the deadone there.

T: Youtold mesomething about a sheriff namedJim G'illett, I believe. B: lrlell, Jim Gillett wasa townmarshall here at one time. Himand my BARNI-IART Page 5

father comefrom the samepart of the countrydown there in Austin, San

Antonio- Jim Gillett ioined the TexasRangers and later on left themto work for the railroad. I believe he left there and cameto El Pasoto

take over as townmarshall. Andwhen I remembenhim, he wasan old... getting alongin years, a fairly o1dman then downat Marfa. And,well,

he wasa big shot in a bankdown there, /TromTa big ranchfamily. My father wasagent there with the railroad. Sometimesthey'd get together andtalk for old times. That's the wayI got to knowhim by sight; I was a little kid.

T. t. Youtold methat he wascredited with tamingEl Paso.

B: l,'|el'|,that's what they said. Whenhe comehere, she waswild; whenhe left, it wastamed down.

T: 7pidn't you tellT methat he hadkilled only two menin his entire l'ife? B: Killed two menin his entire life. Oneof themwas an outlaw, if I remembercorrectly, downin East Texassomewhere. They wanted this out- law awful bad, he wastrying to get dwdlr and Jim shot him. Theother onewas an Indianthat he killed downin M6xico. M6xicohad asked for assistancedown there and they sent these Rangersdown there to help them out.

M6xicohad asked the state of Texas,the government,for assistance

agai nst the I ndi ans lTherg? I guessthe state of ChihuahuaEi{. WhichIndian tribe wasit? You'dhave to readup on it to makesure, but I believeit wasprobably Apache;I'm not certain. It had beengetting pretty hard for themover on this side. Theywere ganging up over on the other side, makingthings BARNHART Page 7

pretty roughover there. I don't rememberall the details, but I've read

a couple of books/on if. Theyhad gonedown there to help out, /The Rangersdid7, and fcillet!/ ki'l'ledan Indian in a fight downthere.

T: Youtold mealso abouta mannamed John Wesley Hardin.

B: I^lell.,John wesley Hardin was a famousoutlaw. Hardinoperated back in the Austin/SanAntonio territory, if I remembercorrectly, becausemy grandfatherand my great-uncleswere all in that sameterritory. Finally

they hadHardin in jail. I'm not certain, I think it was/in7 Austin. Heput in a numberof years in the penitentiary. T: Youtold mea story abouthis death, howhe died.

B: well, after he got out of the pen (they hadpardoned him, I believe), and he cameto El Paso( I can rememberall the details without checkingon

it), he got pretty hard to get alongwith here; and he /-go{ in several scrapesand he got killed here. Thatold fellow that killed him, I can't rememberhis name,had beenon both sides of the law. He'd beena pretty toughhombre himself. At the tjme, though,he wasa deputymarshall or

deputysheriff or somethinglike that. Theyhad a quarrel. This old man hadawomanherethattherehadbeensometroubleover;JohnWes.|ey

threatenedto shoothim over it, so this old man(I can't recall his name without looking it up in the book) wentlooking for Hardin. AndHardin was'in the saloon. He hadthreatened to shoothim on sight, Hardindjd. This deputywalked up to the door, and they say that Hardinwas looking

into the mirror and he seenhis face in the mirror. /The deputy/-thought

Hardinwas looking at him, and he jerkedout his Sun,anAihot him,anilgotlim. Hegot him in the back? I guesshe did. Anyway,I guessthat wasthe only fight Hardinever lost. BARNI]ART Page B

T: It washis last one.

B: He'dwon a lot of them,andhe killed a lot of men.

T: Whatdid you do during the Depression?l,lhat was your occupationEn"ltl

B: t^lell,I waslaid off myiob--railroad shop. I hada goodfriend at that time, Chief LawrenceRobbly, Chief of Police. I askedhim for a iob,

t*17 he told methat it might be 20 years before they ever put anybody on. But then he signedme up as a specia'lofficer, andlined meup on getting dancesto watch,and occasionally, stores. I kept that up tjll the Depressionwas over, becauseI thjnk I wasout of a job for four

months. After I went back, /T workedThalf time, /_En!7the rest of the time I workedout at the station downthere, at odd iobs, of course.

T. Yousaid you coveredthe Southsidebeat whenyou werea policemanduring

the Depression.

B: l^lell,yes, weworked principal]y the Southsideand East El Paso. T: Wasthere a lot of gangactivity at the time? t,Jell,of course,we run into themevery time we hada dance...fttotaud'ible/.

the Mexicans. Now,we hada bunchof the colored boys' dancesthat would get pretty rough,of course.

T: Did you vote for PresidentRoosevelt? B: I voted for him the first two times, yes.

T: Youtold meyou didn't like him. B: I got fed up. I think that's whereour inflation started. Helaid the groundworkfor it, anyway,in myopinion. Doyou rememberthe CCCwork projects that he started? I,{erethere any in El Paso? t,lell, I heardof them,but i can't nemember.As far as I'm concerned,why, BARNHART PageI

I wasworking fortherailroad; and, as I say, I put in mostof myextra

time workingout of the Police Departmentat that time.

T: Hhenwere you laid off from the railroad, whatyear? '29 B: Well, the Depressionlwagl in andwe didn't feel it downhere, to '30s. speakof, until the I guessit was6n 1930,when I waslaid off/. T: Doyou rememberanything else aboutthe Depression? B: I rememberthat it wassure rough, Someof the boysthat d'idn't have

anythingsaved, they /_werg/really in a mess. T: Whenwas the first time you heardthe word "Chicano"and what doesit mean?

B: I can't recall whenwas the ffrst time, tArA- it's beena long time ago. A Chicano,as I understandit, is a Mexicanraised along this side, ain't

it?

T. I believe so. Doyou recall World|,lar II? B: Yes,definitely.

T: Are there any significant incidentsthat,you would l'ike to mention?

B: Well, /There wag./real excitementabout it. l,lewere getting us all prepared in casewe hadto get into it. Youmentioned that Rooseveltsold us out to the Russians. Well, I think he did. That's beenso far back, it's hardto rememberthe

details. But Russianever amounted to anythinguntil we threwin with them,helped them out. Ain't that aboutright? Nowthey're our largest potential enemy,I believe. ,|930? Doyou recall the pesodevaluation of Well, all I can rememberabout the devaluationof the pesowas that whenmy

father used to bring them back from l'16xico.they were worth 50d on the dol.la r . And as time went on, they decreasedin value. They /wentZ downfrom time BARNHART PageI 0

to time, but I neverhad any dealingswith moneyfromtheother side, /so that's all I knowabout iV. t: Youmentioned that your father-in-lawhad some dealings in the Mexican

Revolution. Couldyou te11me about that?

B: Well, there wastwo Generals,fone wasT Jos6 Rodriguez. Villa killed one

of them,I believe, in ch'ihuahua.The other one.. ___:__. ..Vjlla sent himover to this side, I understand.I wastold that he gave$40,000 to buy equipment,and once he got on this side, he kept that for himself. Villa wantedh'im back pretty bad, but he neverdid get his handson him. But, well, myfather got hima job on the railroad. Hewas flat brokein

aboutthree years. Fromhere fir-ewentT to California and boughtan orangegrove out there. He left somebodylooking after it, and he lost

that. Thenhe went up to NewYork, apparentlyhad a great time up there, and he final'ly got backdown to El Paso. 0h, he hadhis clothes, and his

pistol--still hadhis six shooter,of course--anda fewdollars, maybe10, 15,20. Whenhe got here, myfather got hima job. Hewas a telegraph operatorfor the Revolution. Hespoke a little English,not too much.

Heworked in Sierra Blanca,I believeit was, for a while, after the SouthernPacific hired him. Thensome of his enemiesstarted closing in on him, getting close to him, and he took off to SanAntonio and was work-

ing 7|therg/as a telegraphoperator. GeneralRodriguez was operating downthere on the East Coastl he wentover to see him, and arrangedwith him to join up with him. And,well, he comeback up here, talked things over and told h'is family goodbye. Hewent backdown there and ioined this NicolSsRodriguez. He jo'ined up with himas a general,see, and he stayedwith him till the Revolutionended. Later on he wasin M6x'icoCity, BARNHART Pagell

hada business,I understand.Finally he comeback to El Paso,and died herein El Paso.

He's buniedhere in El Paso?

Yes,he's buriedin El Paso. Werethere a lot of Mexicanimmigrants that camehere duning the Revolution? 0h, lots of them. tl Pasowas full of them. Did they stay here after the Revolution? Someof themgot jobs here. I^Iehad the railroad shopfull of themover there. T: Did any rich Mexicanscome over?

B: Well, the rich Mexicans,I don't knowabout that. Someof themdid, 'longl maybe. Theywer.e f ike my father-in-law--theydidn't stay rich very

(Laughter). Theones I knowwere working c1ass, there werelots of them. Youmentioned that you werea gunsmithand that you madea lot of rifles for Mexicans.

B: Wel1,that's wayback yonden, young times. I belongedto that club, Tiradoresdel Norte. Beforethat, i belongedto a club over here, see, then the boysta'lked me into joining up over there. I did mostof their work for themover there. t. Youmentioned that you father knewJudge Bean, Judge Roy Bean. B: Yes,they know each other whenthey wasyoung men in SanAntonio.

T. t. Canyou tel1 meany stories aboutJudge Bean?

B: We'I1,the impressionI got from... WhenI $,asa little:'kid, I seenRoy Bean myself,just sitting out on the porch. Hewas pretty old then, and he spentmost of his time sitting out on the porch. Myfather, after he learnedtelegraph, went to work for the railroad here. Theysent him down BARNHART PageI 2

there, and him and Beangot together--theyhadn't seeneach other for

years- And,well, he told melots of storiesnthings aboutBean. My

impressionwas that Beanhad a lot of backingfrom themranchers down

there. Nobodyelected him, he elected himself the law downthere. Later on he madeit'lega1, but at first there wasno legality to it at all. Hejust sat hjmselfthere. T: Wherewas this--Langtry?

B: Langtry,yeah. Myfather workedout there for a while, possibly two or three times, I'm not sure. See,we changed around a wholelot andwe were on friendly termswith... i knowhe didn't considerRoy Bean a friend.

Hewasn't no first-c'lass gunmanor anythinglike that. But Royhad the backingof those ranchersdown there. 0f course, he wastrying to bring

the law downthere, /6ecause/ there wasn't any 1aw. He had to bring the law downthere and he succeeded,to a large extent. Theygave him the

backingbecause they wastired of beingrobbed by themcowthievesand horsethieves downthere.

T: Theycalled himthe "HangingJudge," didn't they? B: Yes. Why,yes. I don't knowhow many he got awaywith--quite a few. Theyfound a hobodown there that fell off a freight train and got killed.

Fn"rt founda gunon him, and somemoney (I don't remembenhow much).

Whateverit was,/Judge Bean/ confiscated the gunand fined the deadhobo the amounthe had in his pocketfor carrying a gun in town. T: Thereis anotherstory aboutJudge Bean and a Chinaman.Could you tel'l meabout that?

B: blell, I heardthat /;toryr/. Lookingthrough a law book, he couldn't find anythingagainst k'illing a Chinaman,so he dismisseda case/against a man BARNHART Page1 3

accusedof kjlling a Chinaman,becausgz tr" said that he couldn't find any- thing againstkilling a Chinaman.

T: He dismissedthe cowpoke?

B: Dismissedthe case. Nolaw againstit. A family in Alpine, the Reagans, they had somekinfolks downin there, branchesof pretty hard boys, I understand.The ones in Alpine, oneof themwas an ex-judge. Hewas old and retired, whichwas Judge Reagan. And he hada coupleof boys. The youngestone, I don't rememberhjs name,they alwayscalled him,'Colonel.', Everbodyused to call him that. Thenthe older one, he wasa goodfriend of my father, wasArthur, I believe. I can rememberone time that we were over at the Reaganhouse, and he was showingmy father a six shooter

that he hadjust orderedfrom Colt's--fd finely engraved.38 special on

a .45 cartridge he hadmade up spec'ial. Theywere not putting themout, he had it madeup specia'lin that caliber. Later on he went downthere

to Langtry, and JudgeBean d'idn't knowhim. We1'l, this boy had learned the telegraphand he waswork'ing for the railroad. JudgeBean got too

muchto drink one day; /_in{ went downto the station. /He7 said he was looking for someoneto run out of town, and see howfast they could run,

and/That7 that fellow lookedlike he couldjust aboutmake it. About that time, Arthur comeout with his gun, shot downat the floor between Roy's feet, and Roytook off andwent homeand slept it off. Hewas all right the next day. T: So he didn't run himout of town?

B: Not that boy; oh, no. Roy,he wasn't no fighter in the first place. If

he hadknown h'im, he wouldn'thave tried it, see, but he didn't knowit. TheReagan family, someof them,they wasa pretty rough bunch. This BARNHART Page1 4

particulanone, hewasson of JudgeReagan. Andthey were goodboys,

welI -educatedboys, but they wasn'tgoing to let RoyBean or anybodyelse run oventhem.

T. t. Howlong did JudgeBean stay a judge?

B: I can't rememben--fora long time, Hespent the later part of his life downthere. T: Did he ever becomean official judge?

B: Wel1,yes. He final'ly got himselfappointed as a judge. Therewas another family downthere--I can't recall their names--theycut in on himone time and got one of their boyselected for a term. But then, if I remember correct'ly, RoyBean got backin again later on--just a questionof getting

enoughvotes. 0f course, that wasafter they made'it 1ega].