George Lewis Author(s): and George Lewis Source: BOMB , Fall, 2005, No. 93 (Fall, 2005), pp. 82-88 Published by: New Art Publications Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/40427707

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This content downloaded from 115.70.22.62 on Tue, 02 Mar 2021 05:04:16 UTC All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms M GEORGE LEWIS U BY S JEFF PARKER I C

I FIRST MET GEORGE LEWIS IN 1999. IT WAS AT THE VELVET rience reminded me of a ring shout- everyone had Lounge in , where I was performing as a their say, but the collective was just as important, member of the Quartet for a live creating an improvisatory environment in which I felt recording, and Lewis was composing the liner notes. truly open. He introduced himself and said that he would like to interview me for the book he's writing, a history JEFF PARKER of the Association for the Advancement of Creative Hey. I have a bunch of topics I want to try to cover. Musicians (AACM), the legendary, innovative and GEORGE LEWIS influential Chicago-based musician's collective, of Really? (laughter) which we are both members (an extensive project- J P I'm hoping that they will kind of lead into one another. he's done 90 interviews since 1998, and the book will But maybe not. (laughter) Okay. Well, one thing I've be published by the University of Chicago Press in noticed is that you create a historical as well as a 2006). I was quite familiar with him and much of his socio-political setting for seemingly all the work that work, not to mention awestruck and flattered that he you present. Is this something that you feel is neces- even knew who I was. A few days later he showed up sary only as it applies to you and your work, or do you at my old apartment in Bucktown and asked me ques- feel that all art is political in nature? tions about music and myself that shone a fresh light GL Tve always wanted some kind of subtext in my on the path I was heading down (I'm still traveling that compositions, and I think where it starts to get path). This was the beginning of a friendship that has intense for me is with the piece called Homage inspired me in ways that I could've never imagined. to Charles Parker, which was done at the AACM Lewis wears many hats: he's a trombonist, an Festival in 1978. It was in two parts. For the first improviser, a composer, a pioneer in music technol- part we put contact mies on cymbals and Douglas ogy and computer music, a scholar, an historian, a Ewart used mallets and brushes, and I had, like, multimedia artist and an educator. He has always stomp boxes from the '70s (laughter), Electro- been light years ahead of the pack, asking questions Harmonix stuff, phasers and flangers. You could that need to be asked, addressing and eloquently get sounds a lot like [Stockhausen's] Mikrophonie articulating issues about the various relationships I and II and things like that. So the idea for me was between art and society, and realizing his humanistic that this kind of represented Charlie Parker's life, vision through his brilliant works. I've had the plea- which seemed to me to be very turbulent. My inter- sure of working with Lewis on two occasions. The pretation of Parker was that he really was trying to first was as part of a performance and discussion realize more than society was going to allow him (along with Kelan Phil Cohran) that George curated, to achieve, and so he found other, more destruc- called "Frankiphones and Silver Cycles: African- tive ways to exercise the rest of his prodigious Americans in Electronic Music" (2002), where I also energy. You know, all the things he was reputed to got to see an incredible performance with Lewis, the be, this extremely smart guy who could talk about great Roscoe Mitchell and Lewis's computer-interac- anything. Fred Anderson has this wonderful inter- tive composition/improviser Voyager. The second was view with him on tape where he's talking about I the "Baden-Baden Free Meeting," which George Bartók. He's very voluble, very well read and so on. i describes as And then the second part of Homage was these z two ethereal seventh chords: Charlie Parker's an event that, since the late 1960s, has had a afterlife. I wanted to go back to the "Bird is free" idea- "Bird Lives," that phrase coined by Ted Joans o.I long and important history in European impro- s¿ in the '50s. o vised music. For this edition of the meeting, I < N wanted to explore ways in which technology JP Sure. d § dovetailed with improvisation in creating a site GLof Douglas was playing alto saxophone; I played an hybridity between electronic and acoustic sound electric keyboard. The idea was to approach these z worlds. Each of the musicians I chose for the proj- historical and socio-political energies in a sublim- inal way, sort of like what Anthony Davis was Ui ect seemed to me to be addressing that nexus in § some way- Jeff Parker (electric guitar), Guillermo doing on a grand scale with [his opera] X, or with UJ LL. O E. Brown (drums/electronics), Kaffe Matthews Amistad, which is an even more amazing opera Q£ UI (electronics, Great Britain), DJ Mutamassik (turn- than X, I think.

CJ UJ tables), Miya Masaoka (koto, electronics); 48nord The other important point for me was my I I- (Sigi Rössert, bass and electronics, and Ulrich recording Changing With the Times, which was i LL. Müller, guitar and electronics); and me. done in '92, where all the pieces deal with history, memory and with how black males are viewed in Three days of performances followed, and the expe- society, through looking at an older black male-

This content downloaded from 115.70.22.62 on Tue, 02 Mar 2021 05:04:16 UTC All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms G in this case, my father- and using an original text my approach to getting it to work. 8 E by him, more or less a found text. He went to this J P Are you referring to Voyager? You started working on O adult education class and they said, You guys read this in the late 70s, right? R the autobiography of Frederick Douglass and then G L The first interactive computer music piece I made G write your own autobiography. In other words, it's was in '80 or '81. Then in '82 I went to IRCAM E a slave narrative. [Institute for Music/Acoustic Research and You know, the idea that art has to have a politi- Coordination] in Paris, worked on a piece there for a L cal basis seems a little too much like preaching to couple years, then premiered it there in '84. It was E other people about what they should be doing. On a network of three computers that were making W the other hand, seeing artists as political seems music, and they were listening to four musicians: I almost intrinsic because of what you have to go , Derek Bailey, Joëlle Leandre and S through to get art before the public, or to make a . space in which it can be interpreted or understood, J P And this is before Voyager. thought about or debated. GL Yeah, maybe three years before. It was my idea JP Right. of a virtual orchestra. I didn't call it that in those GL All of that is a political process shot through with days, but it had something you couldn't have in the usual dimensions of class and race and gender "real life," at least not in the classical domain: and sexuality and all the rest of it. There's that an orchestra that improvised. There was a lot of whole thing, in classical music mainly, the idea disapprobation, so in that environment you could that political music is just not quite as good as get individual brilliant improvisers, like Frederic music that is apolitical. But why should music be Rzewski, for example, but you weren't going to necessarily secular, with no spiritual component, get a whole culture. So you created it in software necessarily apolitical with no claims on society? (laughter), and then you could invite people like That's kind of out of touch with the realities that Frederic. we face. Voyager was more an architectural than a JP You have a strong compositional background. I use conceptual change from the IRCAM piece. It was the term compositional in the organizational sense. In a massively parallel type deal, where you had a your approach to music, there's often no written nota- large number of software "players" that could play tion. It's highly conceptualized, but not composed. I any instrument at any time. This comes directly notice that you focus on improvisation a lot, also in out of AACM multi-instrumentalism. When I saw your writing. Do you see improvisation as a way of the Art Ensemble in 1972, they'd have like a thou- presenting a social ideal? When we worked together sand instruments on the stage. See, I don't know at Baden-Baden it was like that; you were trying to get of any culture where you can get a hundred people us to realize a way of relating to each other socially together, each one of whom can play a hundred through the music. instruments, and they get together and they impro- GL In improvisations, I believe that people should vise. It doesn't happen. Software is the only place know what to do, but I've realized that often they where you can realize conceptions like that now. really don't know what to do, or rather, they know My feeling was that there is a political subtext to what to do as it relates to themselves. That is, they the idea of signifying on, that sort of détourne- have a certain style that they impose on every ment of the classical orchestra. situation; otherwise they're not "keeping it real," JP So this concept of having a multi-instrumentalist not being true to themselves. I'd like to be more orchestra, is that what Voyager is now? The one time protean about the whole thing, analyzing situa- that I saw yourself and Roscoe Mitchell- tions and then taking action based on that analy- G L The piano thing in Chicago. sis. You listen, you try to intuit, use every technique JP Yeah. or possibility for awareness, and after a while you G L I had taken the Voyager software and made a little can tell more or less what's inside the musicians' piano version of it. It didn't play the piano very heads, what they want, what their goals are, what well, it didn't have a great touch or anything, so I they're trying to do. But this is just a subset of what people are ¡75 £¡ doing in their normal everyday-life improvisations, £ o if you will. Creativity is not a special gift, but a kind tu O z 5 of birthright. You get rid of the idea that the musi- cian is being some special priest, and move into a very prosaic space where all we're doing is trying to get along in the world as creatively as we can, given what we find in the environment and our own possibilities for creating change. JP Sure, yeah. GL Creating a computer improviser draws on these ideas about awareness. You couldn't really get it to O work unless you did those things. At least it's been

This content downloaded from 115.70.22.62 on Tue, 02 Mar 2021 05:04:16 UTC All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms 8 the AACM, breaking down these genres that seem M 5 to restrict artists' freedom. And it seems, at least to U me, that you try to challenge people's perceptions or S expectations, definitely of African American artists, I in order to redefine or modernize what's considered C

Afrocentric. G L Maybe so. I came up at the tail end of the sort of heavy cultural nationalism period, where it seemed cri i to be pretty rigid as to what was considered truly en 3 black music. By the way, this is something that ¡* _i < has always excited me about your work- how you just ride over all of that, especially when it comes 2 § O 0. to the interface with rock, you know, the Tortoise thing, the Isotope thing. I don't want to feel that revived it with the help of Damon Holzborn, who's people are looking over my shoulder all the time. now a Columbia composition graduate student. If they are, I don't want to have to even notice it. We were using the Disklavier, the Yamaha grand (LAUGHTER) piano that's MIDI controllable. The thing is, usually J P I feel the same way. people just run a sequence on the piano, and it G L This is what / want to do, figure out ways to feel sounds very wooden, or alternatively, somebody that free, while recognizing at the same time that plays the sound in and takes the whole thing into there are actions by society that make it difficult some editing software, and then the touch is as to exercise these kinds of freedoms. And of course good as the person who originally played it. But you can't boil it down to personality X and person- in my case, I felt that I should be able to get the ality Y. That's just recapitulating Horatio Alger. computer to sound good more or less on its own, J P Sure. so that someone listening to it says, "Who is that G L That's what I think has been great about operating playing?" in spheres that are very different. You start to see JP Right. the hidden assumptions, the comfortable agree- GL But if you get "What's that?" instead, you have to ments about who is authorized to make certain go back to the drawing board. And that may seem sounds, and there's a sudden Aufklärung- an scandalous to a lot of people, but at this point I feel enlightenment. I like bringing those kinds of situa- like Voyager's gotten pretty good, actually dialogu- tions out through the music, so that people start to ing with people- or maybe just playing a solo, realize that maybe everything is much more in flux because the other thing about Voyager is that it than they thought. doesn't need you. It's perfectly capable of playing Jeff, let me ask you something, is that okay? whole concerts by itself. If you choose to go in and J P Yeah, of course! play, it's happy to listen to you and dialogue with GL I was going to ask you about this little business you, or sometimes ignore you, but the concep- of so-called . I mean, maybe tual aspect of it is that it's pretty autonomous. just broadly stated, how do you feel about it? Is it You can't tell it what to do. Just like with people, something you do a lot? I expect it to listen to the situation and figure out JP Yeah, I guess it's ... I do, I do it a lot, especially with what's appropriate, and although I may not agree musicians around Chicago. Are you talking about it with what the computer finds appropriate, that's in terms of what's implied by the term free improvi- too bad, because there's no reason why I should sation, or just getting together and improvising with have a veto on what anyone does. So improvisation other musicians? becomes a negotiation where you have to work Gt I guess particularly in the European sense, it with people rather than just be in control. became this kind of practice, and then it became J P You referred to it as - quite politicized in some ways. I was reading the GL -anti-authoritarian, (laughter) That was in this new biography of Derek, where it takes on this great film by Jeremy Marre, with Derek Bailey messianic dimension that I'm pretty uncomfort- going all around the world talking to improvisers. able with. They interviewed Jerry Garcia, and I borrowed the JP You mean the people who kind of define the idiom, anti-authoritarian thing from what he said in the like Derek Bailey? film. GL Yeah, or were said to have defined the medium. J P That's a great phrase. The author put Derek in the role of the messiah, GL It's a great film. It's one of those things that they but maybe none of us can take on that role. made for PBS, but you know PBS these days- my JP Right right right. It seems like a parody now; I mean, God, they can find time for Tucker Carlson but they it contradicts what it was supposed to be about in the have no time at all for Derek Bailey, (laughter) first place. JP We've had conversations in the past where we GL I would say the people who really were doing touched on the subject of genre and how it implies great work back then are still doing it. You just certain restrictions. I guess it's kind of a credo of said idiom, which is interesting, because I think a O

This content downloaded from 115.70.22.62 on Tue, 02 Mar 2021 05:04:16 UTC All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms G lot of writing about improvisation goes like: Well, for you. It's not especially a part of what I do. Just 8 E our thing is not idiomatic, whereas other kinds the fact that it has an improvisational nature is what 6 O of music are very idiomatic- that is, immobile, attracted me to it, because that's what I was always R unchanging, non-dynamic, like a fixed star- and doing on the guitar anyway, from the minute that I G the fixed star is usually jazz, because that's where picked it up. That's the extent of my relationship with E most of them came from anyway, so it's kind of it really, just as an improvising musician. Oedipal. Also it's frankly the most successful G L In Tortoise, does everyone have a jazz background? L Western form of improvisation. Whether you love J P No, nobody does. E it or hate it, it's sitting there like a big elephant GL in How does that work in terms of the conception of W the room. For me the subtext of the idiomatic/non- improvisation? I idiomatic thing is largely about race, and there JPis a It doesn't really. It's improvisational more in the way S poverty of theorizing on that subject that has yet that a composer improvises. It's basically a band that to be really addressed. just gets together and we write together. We docu- J P You've definitely been focusing on that for the past, I ment it like that. There's no improvisation in it at all. don't know, 10 years or so? At least in your writing. G L So the improvisation is not in the performing but in G L This goes back again to my record Changing With the conceptualizing of it? the Times. The liner notes by Paul Carter Harrison J P Right, exactly. talked about the trickster imagery in the piece, G L So what other kinds of projects are you involved in and I realized, I don't know anything about any of right now? this, and this is my music. It made me understand JP I just got into Reason. It's electronic music studio that you didn't have to rely on the composer as the software. When we were in Baden-Baden, Guillermo ultimate arbiter of what the work was about. Other [Brown] was trying to get me into it because I was people could develop ideas and if you encourage explaining some things that I wanted to do. I was deal- that process, you could develop a larger network ing with sample-based music, trying to incorporate of discourse surrounding what you're doing. it into whatever it is I'm trying to do in a really natu- A couple of years after that, I started publishing ral way. so-called historical and critical texts. Musicians G L When you say natural, do you mean playing it on an have always been a little disaffected with what's instrument, or having a real-time composing envi- been said about their work, and then suddenly, I'm ronment around you? saying things that they had always thought aboutJP More a way to compose, using sample-based tech- but couldn't quite put together, or maybe were nology as a compositional element, but in a way afraid to say. This other mode of thinking feeds that doesn't sound like you're just making a hip-hop back into the musical thinking. I get the same feel- or electronic music track. It's something I've been ing from writing a scholarly article as I do from thinking about for years, but I was intimidated by the composing or playing music. I don't want to get too process and kept putting it off. Now it's something romantic about this, but there is a kind of ecstasy I'm getting into, even though I know it might take me connected with it all. years to really figure this out. (laughter) J P It's important to have the history documented from an GL You know, the Baden-Baden experience was the alternative viewpoint, actually from an insider point of outgrowth of work I'd been doing with this elec- view. tronic music duo 48nord from Munich: Sigi Rössert G L Well, so many of us have been written out of these and Ulrich Müller. I had a residency there, and they histories of contemporary music. But we can write were showing me stuff I'd never seen- the laptop ourselves back in. It comes out of the whole jazz improvisers and their world. idea that your job as a musician is to bring your To people who know me, this won't sound terri- individual voice out. ble at all, but I have always had a real ambiva- JP Right. That's the reason I personally started doing a lence about the trombone. It got acute after I had lot of the stuff that I got into, because I felt like my some real success as a trombone player, and then individual voice was something that I needed to find. it was like, Well, if you don't play the trombone Coming from my experiences in music school, they you're worthless, you know? As a creative artist I tried to repress it, like they didn't want me to find my thought, I didn't sign up for this, to have a brass own thing, my niche. albatross around my neck, (laughter) Electronics G L When you say they, who is that? were the road out of that, and there I am with J P Just some of the jazz pedagogy police, (laughter) Sigi and Ulrich, and I'm thinking, Well, I could be G L Well, you really went all the way through that. doing more of this. This is what I'm interested in, J P At the time that's what I was into. I was always infatu- creating sound in real time and improvising with ated by jazz and jazz history when I was a child, and I them, and they're all using this Ableton Live soft- really wanted to know what it was about. The deeper ware. They showed me how it worked and I started I got into it, the less it seemed like I had to do it the using it for a piece that's part of Lev Manovich's way that they were teaching me in the schools. DVD Soft Cinema, which was a personal travelogue GL What would you say your relationship is to jazz presented as a database of video clips of video today? screens, hotel rooms and so on. Years before, when O J P I don't know if it's necessarily something I can define camcorders were new, I had made videos every-

This content downloaded from 115.70.22.62 on Tue, 02 Mar 2021 05:04:16 UTC All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms 8 where. I made about 300 or 400 sound clips from M 7 those videos for Lev's travelogue. They come from U all over the world, everywhere I went, playing with S these 80-year-old guys, Austrian amateur musi- I cians playing the Ländler. C You can authorize yourself to drop all the stuff about what people expect. In order to do that, though, you also have to authorize yourself against your friends and colleagues who also believe it. JP Right, right. GL Some of those expectations are pretty intense, whether you become world-famous or locally significant to a certain small group of people who get very invested in your previous practice, so ^ I that when you decide to step out of that practice, 2 g people say, What are you doing? ° 2 z ^ < U. The Baden-Baden thing was designed to be z ° ^ z gender and racially diverse. I'd been playing in all u 2 these European scenes where I was always the z o only African American and there were never any o o women, especially not women of color. I decided I "- o O (j O *" LU O didn't want to play in any more concerts like that. It wasn't an environment that I was that interested o œ in, and it played totally against all these other E I -¡ Z) ideas of community. - z *~ < JP Sure. GL I think that having three women in there, Miya Masaoka, Kaffe Matthews and DJ Mutamassik, night, (laughter) He didn't get started until 10 or 11, instead of the usual token one person, made a lot of and then we'd play till like four or five in the morn- things better for everybody. This was also related ing. These two people were my electronic music to ideas written by Susan McClary and others mentors. But then you also have to look at Muhal about how women are kept away from technology [Richard Abrams], because he did electronics on in music and so on. So you're playing against that all his records; he wasn't averse to it the way a lot as well. of people were. Then there were the three of us African I wasn't that interested in playing the trombone Americans: Guillermo, you and me. It provided a through the electronics. I thought I could- and I very different idea of what improvised music could still believe this- really get a much wider palette be like than what you normally see. of sound playing acoustically. I spent a lot of time JP When you put electronic elements on the trom- working on just "how weird can it get," you know? bone, did that lead you into computer music or into JP Honestly, that's how I feel about my guitar playing electronics? as well. I can get more interesting sounds out of just GL Early on, Douglas Ewart and I would talk about playing the guitar with my hands than with a bunch how we wanted to get a computer, but we didn't of devices hooked up to it. So at the time when you really know what computers could do. We're talk- did the Solo Trombone record, you were already into ing about '72, '73, and computer music was mostly computer music? a mainframe thing. You also had people like Joel GL Yes, but the main point for me was always using Chadabe and Sal Martirano who were doing the computers to create these alternate beings, a kind interactive live electronic music, but we weren't in of animistic conception. Of course, what I've done touch with that world. We were just thinking about is on the fringe somewhere, but I've been a part of it from our perspective. so many fringes, including contemporary music. I first encountered computers at Mills College, It's not really sampling, it's not really transforma- around '77 or '78. Hearing David Behrman and his tion of timbre or playing your instrument through associates doing this kind of work, it sounded just the electronic box. It's just its own little thing. You like the improvised music that we had been doing. saw me in Baden-Baden with the electronics and I thought, Wow, if you can do this with computers, the trombone, but I still approach it very gingerly, then I want to get one. (laughter) It started with because you can get into some pretty hoary clichés one of those small single boards that you had to really quick. program yourself. And that was where people like J P You mean as far as in the laptop- David were just great. He would sometimes stay up GL Well, there, but I'm more insulated from that all night, worrying with me about whether some because having done electronic music for so long, interface was going to work. I mean, it was him you hear a lot of the stuff that people have already and Richard Teitelbaum, who really did stay up all picked over. You don't have to go into those ancient o

This content downloaded from 115.70.22.62 on Tue, 02 Mar 2021 05:04:16 UTC All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms G each other on. It's a model I haven't really found in 8 E any other world of music I've been involved in. 8 O In writing this book on the AACM I'm trying R to sort out why the AACM succeeded where so G many musicians' collectives failed. The focus was E on helping someone else rather than helping your co own career. The economic strategy of the AACM is § (N L 6 the thing that most people focus on, but very few z

E people have a strategy for encouraging individu- o Û W Z als to realize themselves. They always talked about O I self-realization, and being a college boy from Yale, S I thought it was about Abraham Maslow (laugh- LU

O ter) but it was really Paramahansa Yogananda that oc O some of them were influenced by. o I'm not saying that other people didn't have a middens to find stuff. hand in what I have become, because I've learned JP I want to ask one last question. Did you learn from from everyone that I performed with and did stuff the AACM the direction that you eventually ended up with. But the AACM gave me the tools that enabled taking, or was it a direction you were already going in me to really open up, to have a questioning and a before, that was cultivated by the AACM? critical attitude. GL I was 19 years old when I met the people in the Was it the same way for you? I think it changed AACM. It was just dumb luck that I almost liter- quite a bit by the time you were there. ally stumbled upon Muhal, Pete Cosey, people like JP No, in honesty, man, I wasn't really as immersed in that. I was walking on 87th and Bennett and I saw this as in that time. I was mentored by a band rehearsing in this children's center. I poked and Ameen Muhammad in a lot of ways, but I felt like I my head in, and that was how I met them. They had developed more of a community with my peers around their Monday night band, and then after the initial the stuff I was doing in Wicker Park in Chicago. period of "Who is this guy?" they let me play. GL In my case, there was a sense of urgency about It seemed that the AACM was a place where it. One doesn't want to get into the nostalgia of it, if you didn't have a clue, you were encouraged to but if you were on the stage with Henry Threadgill, develop one. If you had an idea, no matter how half- Muhal, Roscoe Mitchell, , Amina, baked it was, they would try to realize it, and they and Braxton would visit, or Leroy Jenkins and Leo would demand that you create your own concepts, Smith- and who's playing drums- Hamid Drake? your own compositions. They had their Saturday I mean, it was my luck to come up right at that classes, and people were being encouraged to moment, and I think that the AACM is about to compose. They never discussed improvisation; the have another one of those lucky moments with only classes were in composition. So to bring this lots of new people, like Nicole Mitchell, who's bril- whole thing full circle, this whole business of my liant, Corey Wilkes, people like this. approaching things compositionally came from That's not to say the community doesn't have the AACM, because it was assumed that you were dislocations, but in the end, part of what I found there because you wanted to be a composer, and interesting about the AACM was- for one thing, I by being a composer you were manifesting a kind got to meet you through it. You know, it works in of alternative model of what African American mysterious ways. creativity would be about. People like Fred Anderson, Lester Lashley and Roscoe were constantly questioning you about what you were trying to do. I remember riding in a van with , and he turns to me and says, George, what is your music like? So I gave him what I thought was a pretty cool answer, and he said, You know, George, that kind of sounds like bullshit to me. (laughter) I mean, he was right, you know? People took it personally as to whether you advanced as a musician. I had a whole community of benevolent aunts and uncles who were trying to help me do stuff. That seems almost Utopian, but I have to say that's my recollection of it. They wanted to institutionalize that attitude toward nurturing artists. Rather than keeping it on the individual basis of mentorship, you have a whole o group of people who feel that it's necessary to take

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