Inting in the Sap Francisco Bay Area Series

Regional Oral History Office University of California The Bancrof t Library Berkeley, California

Books and Printing in the Sap Francisco Bay Area Series

Leah Wollenberg Stella Patri Duncan Olmsted Stephen Gale Herrick Barbara Fallon Hiller

THE HAND BOOKBINDING TRADITION IN THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA

With an Introduction by Deborah M. Evetts

Interviews Conducted by Ruth Teiser and Catherine Harroun 1980-1981

Copyright @ 1982 by Thi Regents of the University of California This manuscript is made available for research purposes. No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication without the written permission of the Director of The Bancroft Wbrary of the University of California at Berkeley.

Requests for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to the Regional Oral History Office, 486 Library, and should include identification of the specific passages to be quoted, anticipated use of the passages, and identification of the user.

It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows:

To cite the volume: The Hand Bookbinding Tradition in the San Francisco Bay Area,. an oral history series conducted 1980-1981, Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Wbrary, University of California, Berkeley, 1982.

To cite individual interview: Stella Patri, "An Interview with Stella Patri," an oral history conducted in 1980 by Ruth Teiser and Catherine Harroun, in The Hand Bookbinding Tradition in the San Francisco Bay Area, Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library,- - University of ~alifornia,Berkeley, 1982

Copy no. TABLE OF CONTENTS

PREFACE 1 INTRODUCTION by Deborah M. Evetts iii

I AN INTERVIEW WITH LEAH LEVY WOLLENBERG INTERVIEW HISTORY Studying with Octavia Holden and Belle McMurtry Young A Bookbinding Studio Recollections of Earlier Binders Exhibitions and Exhibitors Peter Fahey and Other Teachers The Hand Bookbinders of California and the 1978 Exhibition Collections of Nne Bindings Young Bookbinders Studio Tour TAPE GUIDE

I1 AN INTERVIEW WITH STELLA PATRI INTERVIEW HISTORY Initial Interest in Bookbinding Studying with Peter and Herbert Fahey Learning Book Restoration in Europe Beginning a Career as a Book Restorer Restoring Books in Florence After the Flood Paper, Apprentices, and Teachers Bay Area Bookbinders Recent Work TAPE GUIDE

111 AN INTERVIEW WITH DUNCAN OLMSTED INTERVIEW HISTORY 1939 Exposition and the Faheys Reminiscences of Various Binders Collectors and Bookbinders TAPE GUIDE TABLE OF CONTENTS -- con't.

IV AN INTERVIEW WITH STEPHEN GALE HERRICK INTERVIEW HISTORY Studying with Peter Fahey and Barbara Hiller Equipping a Studio The Hand Bookbinders of California and Its Predecessor Bookbindings Completed Choosing Books. to Bind The 1978 International Exhibition The Younger Binders Boob Bound' and Books Collected TAPE GUIDE

V AN INTERVIEW WITH BARBARA FALLON HILLER INTERVIEW HISTORY Learning Bookbinding in San Francisco and Paris Creating a Career Successful Students Exhibitions A Binding Described A Look into the Future TAPE GUIDE

APPENDIX A Octavia Holden: Letters Regarding Teaching Bookbinding at the California School of Fine Arts (later the San Francisco Art Institute)

APPENDIX B Hazel Dreis: A Memorandum from Maggie Harrison in Response to an Inquiry from Stephen Gale Herrick

INDEX PREFACE

This group of interviews fulfills several valuable functions. It gives previously unrecorded information on the descent of the tradition of hand bookbinding in this region, from Octavia Holden and Belle McMurtry Young to Edna Peter Fahey and the men and women here interviewed, as well as a number of their colleagues who are referred to in these reminiscences. It is worth noting that Mrs. Fahey is the central figure in bringing the art and craft forward to its present practitioners, having been a teacher of each of those interviewed, although they were chosen not for that reason but because of their pre-eminence in their field.

Thus their recollections also preserve information about their own significant careers and their opinions about bookbinding and bookbinders. That a number of these opinions differ is in itself of interest.

The interviews are, furthermore, a valuable extension of the Regional Oral History Office series on fine printing and books in the San Francisco Bay Area, and a valuable addition to the growing body of material about and collection of fine hand bookbindings in The Bancroft Library.

Discussion of the region's bookbinding tradition began some years ago when Leah Wollenberg and Ruth Teiser had a number of conversations about it. There were also later exchanges of information with Stephen Gale Herrick, who had rediscovered an early twentieth century bookbinders' organization, and had gathered information about Octavia Holden. He also kindly gave the interviewers access to his files, so far as is known the only body of material on Bay Area bookbinding, and articles he has written.

But the idea of creating the interview volume came from Leah Wollenberg herself, who saw it as a record that would be valuable to those who in the future will wish to learn about the bindings and binders of this place and time. Then she and her husband, Harold Wollenberg, implemented the idea by making a generous grant for the purpose to The Bancroft Library.

We are grateful to,Deborah M. Evetts of The Pierpont Morgan Library for contributing in her introduction to this volume a knowledgeable expert's view of Bay Area bookbinding. The Regional Oral History Office was established to tape record autobiographical interviews with persons prominent in recent California history. The Office is under the direction of Willa K. Baum, and under the administration of James D. Hart, the Director of The Bancroft Library. Ruth Teiser is project director for the books and printing series.

Ruth Teiser Catherine Harroun Interviewers

12 November 1982 Regional Oral History Office 486 The Bancroft Library University of California at Berkeley BOOKS -AND PRINTING ---IN THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA Interviews Completed by November 1982

Dorothy & Lewis Allen, Book Printing with the Handpress 1968 (68 pp.) Brother Antoninus, Brother Antoninus: Poet, Printer, and ReZigioua 1966 (97 pp.)

Mallette Dean, Artist and Printer 1970 (112 pp. - Edwin Grabhorn, RecoZZections of the Grabhorn Press 1968 (114 pp.) Jane Grabhorn, The Colt Press 1966 (43 pp.) Robert Grabhorn, Fine Printing and the Grabhorn Press 1968 (129 pp.)

Sherwood & Katharine Grover, The Grabhorn Press and the Grace Hoper Press 1972 (94 pp.) fie Hand Bookbinding Witionin the San Frcmcisco Bay Area. Interviews with Leah Wollenberg, Stella Patri, Duncan Olmsted, Stephen Gale Herrick, and Barbara Fallon Hiller, 1982 (194 pp.)

Carroll T. Harris, Conversations on Type and Printing, 1967 1976 (209 pp.) James D. Hart, Fine Printers of the San Francisco Bay Area- 1969 (95 pp.)

Quail Hawkins, The Art of BookseZZing: Quai2 Hawkins and the Sather Gate Bobk Shop 1979 (155 pp.) . -. Warren R. Howell, Two San ~ranciscoBookmen 1967 (73 pp.) Haywood Hunt, RecoZZections of San Francisco Printers 1967 (53 pp.)

Lawton Kennedy, A, Life in Printing 1968 (211 pp.) Oscar Lewis, Literary San Francisco 1965 (151 pp.) David Magee, BookseZZing and Creating Books 1969 (92 pp.) Walter Mann, Photoengraving, 1910-1969 1973 (90 pp.) - Bernhard Schmidt, Herman Diedrichs, Max Schmidt, Jr. The Schmidt Lithograph Company, VoZume I 1968 (238 pp. Lorenz Schmidt, Ernest Wuthmann, Stewart Norris, The Schmidt Lithograph Company, VoZume 11 1969 (157 pp.) Albert Sperisen, San Francisco Printers, 1925-1965 1966 (91 pp.)

Jack W. Stauffacher, A Printed Word Has Its Own Measure' 1969 (107 pp.) Edward DeWitt Taylor, Supplement to Francis P. Farquhar interview 1960 (45 pp. ~drianWilson, Printing and Book Designing 1966 (108 pp. INTRODUCTION

Bookbinding is an esoteric subject unappreci- ated by, even unknown to, all but a very small section of society. The booksellers, librarians and collectors whose business and pleasure it is to be knowledgeable on the subject are delighted when a newcomer asks for information. They expand endlessly on the merits of a particular style of design, or the national strain of binding -- English, French, German -- to which they subscribe, or their own predilection for asymmetric headbands, or the superiority of gold tooling over blind.

And then there are the students who gather in small groups -- generally not more than six -- to learn the ancient secrets of the craft. They come for many different reasons: because they love books, because they have a favorite that needs repair, because they have seen fine bindings in an exhibition and have been inspired, or simply because they are drawn to the beautiful materials -- leather, marbled paper, gold for tooling. All come expecting to produce a full leather binding with their own design in the first six lessons, and it is only those with a real love for the craft who continue their studies after the first cloth case, box or similar exercise.

Leah Wollenberg, Stella Patri, Duncan Olmsted, Gale Herrick and Barbara Hiller, the subjects of these interviews, have that love for the craft. And they have shown great tenacity as well, searching out the available classes, persevering with their studies until they have become recognized binders in their own right. Now their work is sought by collectors and appreciated by special collections librarians. Three of them devoted themselves to fine binding while the other two turned to restoration and teaching. The impetus that brought them to bookbinding was different for each of them, but they all found bookbinding to be far more than merely a craft, and this is why it continues to hold their interest.

Bookbinding is a very subtle form of artistic expression. Simple lines and decorative tools can be combined for a formal design which can complement a text and which even the beginning student or the artistically untrained binder can execute. Equally, a text can be .used as a springboard for a design that may be pictorial or abstract, simple or complex, created by a sophisticated artist or by someone with only a limited training in design.

The intricacies of different styles of construc-

tion and decoration, together with the almost limitless -. materials of the craft -- paper, fabric, leather, gold, palladium, pigments, wood, metal -- permit countless permutations not found in any other craft or art form. Perhaps this accounts for the almost fanatical devotion of binders to their work.

If you need to earn your living in the field of bookbinding, you work in the areas of restoration and teaching. Both require infinite patience and special skills, but the basic fascination of the craft carries over into them too. It is heightened by the pleasures of detective work in restoration, and by the thrill of seeing students develop with teaching.

The three teachers of San Francisco's bookbinding heritage, Octavia Holden, Belle McMurtry young and Edna Peter Fahey, are all honored in these interviews, and their many faceted characters emerge from the words of each interviewee. Their influence continues to touch each new generation of binders, like the ever-widening rings from a stone tossed into a pond.

The final ripple is lost at the edge of the pond, but the achievements of these teachers live on in the beautiful work of San Francisco's many binders.

Deborah M. Evetts Book Conservator The Pierpont Morgan Library New York 1982 LEAH WOLLENBERG Regional Oral History Off ice Room 486 Library The Bancroft Library University of California Berkeley, California 94720

Hand Bookbinders of San Francisco Interviewee

Father's full name A Father's place of birth [{A - Mother's full name 0 Mothex's place of -_--

Where did you grow up? . t Education 1.- SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE

March 30, 1990

Leah L. Wollenberg

< e Private services will beheld for Leah L. Wollenberg, a noted San Francisco bookbinder who was a founder of the Hand Book Binders

of California. II, Mrs. Wollenberg, a Gti've of Rocky Ford, Colo.. died' Wednes- day at Mt. Zion Hospital from a stroke. She was 83. She began studying bookbinding in the 1930s, and her, bindings are now a part of collecti~nsat the , Bancroft Library in Berkeley and the Humanities Research Center of the University of Texas. They are also in several prominent pri-

vate collections. qrX Mrs. Wollenberg was a fellow of the Gleason Library of-the Uni- versity of San Francisco: a former president of the Eook Club of Cali- fornia and a former board member of the Associates of the Stan- ford Library. She is survived by her husband. Harold, of San Francisco; two sons. Harold Jr. and Charles, ,both of Berkeley; two brothers, Ben Leroy of Los Angeles and Harry Levy of Lancaster; a sister, Noraa,Hirsch of Los Angeles; and three grand-

children. ,.\,

WOLLENBERG. Loah L.- In this city. March 28. 1990; beloved wife of Harold A. Woilen- . berg; lovilig niother of Harold A. Jr. and Charles Wollenberg: devoted grandmother .* of Katnleen. Stephen and Michaal Wollen- berg a loving sister and mother-in-law: * Founder of the Handbook Binders of CaL- fornia and Past President of the Book Club of- . California.- -. .-. Family services will be held. SINAI MEMORIAL CHAPEL. Directors

INTERVIEW HISTORY

Leah Levy Wollenberg began her study of hand bookbinding in 1932 when she took a class with Octavia Holden, She later studied with BelleMcMurtry Young. Then, after a hiatus of more than ten years during which she did World War I1 volunteer work and learned the elements of a number of other crafts, she returned to bookbinding to work with Peter Fahey. Thus she herself carries forward the San Francisco Bay Area bookbinding tradition of these three key teachers of the art of creating fine bindings.

Eorn in Rockyford, Colorado, in 1906, Mrs. Wollenberg studied music at the University of Washington and English Literature at the University of California, Berkeley. She has lived in San Francisco since her marriage to Harold Wollenberg in 1929.

Mrs. Wollenberg has served as president of he Book Club of California and vice president of The Hand Bookbinders of California. An associate member of Designer Bookbinders (England), a member of the Guild of 9ook Workers (New York), and a fellow of the Gleeson Library Associates CUniversity of San Francisco), she is also a member of a number of other organizations devoted to libraries and books. She has contributed articleson western bookbinders to the Gulld of Book Wbrkers Journal.

Tbe taped interview, because it was something of a continuation of earlier discussions between Ruth Teiser and Mrs. Wollenberg, was diffuse, and when Mrs. Wollenberg went over the transcript ske made deletions and revisions in tke interest of precision.

The interview was held in two sessions at Mrs. Wollenberg's home in Forest Hill, San Francisco.

Studying.with Octavia Holden and Belle McMurtry Young [Intemiew 1: August 8, 19801i/i/

Teiser: When did you become interested in bookbinding, and how did you happen to get interested?

Wollenberg: I liked working with my hands and did a great deal of knitting. Leather, metal and wood appealed to me. I felt it would be interesting to learn to work in one of the three mediums. Books were the most important so I settled for leather.

I inquired at the San Francisco Art Institute whether book- bhding was included in their curriculum. It was. Miss Octavia Holden was the instructor. The school didn't have a bindery so classes were held at her home using hers.*

Some of her students were librarians learning to rebind and care for the books, in a short course. She was mostly teaching library-type binding.

Teiser: About what year was that?

Wollenberg: It's hard for me to pin it down, but I think it was probably in 1932; because I went that.semester, and then our older son was born, in February 1933.

But in the meantime I began to collect some tools and equipment for a bindery, as they came on the market. I went back to binding but I didn't work reguarly because I was doing volunteer work in a number of clinics.

tihis symbol indicates that a tape or a segment of a tape has begun or ended. For a guide to the tapes see page 28a.

*See Appendix A. Wollenberg: Harold [Wollenberg] had an aunt who was a friend of Belle [McMurtry] Young, the first important instructor and binder in the Bay Area. She asked me, "Are you really serious about doing bookbinding?" I said, 'Yes. " She said, "Then I'11 ask my friend Belle Young whether she will take you."

Teiser: Let me ask, before you get on--What was Miss Holden like as a teacher and as a binder?

Wollenberg: She was very nice, and at that time she was to me a very ancient lady. You know, when you're twenty-three or twenty-four, people seem quite old. But as I say, she was teaching a different type of binding.

Teiser: Did you know enough to know that wasn't the kind you wereinterested in most?

Wollenberg: I think I probably might have stayed with her longer had it not been for the baby comfng, and Harold's aunt knowing Belle McMurtry Young. Although they both studied in Europe, Octavia Holden was not teaching the French type of binding, because there was more emphasis on library binding and half-bindings.

When I began to bind seriously, I started with Mrs. Young. Recently I had a letter from Phoebe [Mrs. Robert] Dohrmann. - Phoebe says that she and Martha [Alexander] Gerbode started in 1934; she believes that I preceded them by a little bit.

They stayed until 1936. In 1937 I stopped again because we had our second son. I believe that I went back with Belle Young for a while, until I thought that I could be on my own; but I would go back to her later for criticism.

Now Phoebe wrote sort of a fun thing. She said [reading from letter], "As for Martha, I was under the impression that she left binding at the same time, because Belle had told my mother-in-law [Mrs. A.B.C. Dohrmann] that she could no longer go on with the 'kids,' as she was getting quite deaf." And she surely was .

In 1940, possibly the middle of 1940, when the Red Cross was asking for volunteers to go in the different services, I went into the canteen service. And then of course the war came, and I don't think I even went into the bindery during that time. . Teiser: Let me take you back a little, and ask you some specific questions, if I may. I'll ask you again about Belle McMurtry--

Wollenberg : She married Mr. [William R.K.] Young. Her name became well known as Belle McMurtry Young. Teiser : Was she married when you first met?

Wollenberg: Yes. Her husband was quite ill.

Teiser : What was she like, as a person?

Wollenberg: She was a very nice person; she was quite a lady. She was different physically than Miss Holden; she was rather a large, tall person.

Teiser: Was she rather more sophisticated than Miss Holden?

Wollenberg: Oh, very much more sophisticated. Mr. Young was a collector, and I think she had done work for him. He was active in the Book Club of California, and very well known in the book world.

By the time that I started, he was ill, and many times was at home when she taught. Her studio was in their home, on Baker Street. She was a nice person. Some people thought she was a snob.

Teiser: Snobbish about what? Socially, or about bookbinding?

Wollenberg: Both, possibly. She was a very good friend of Dorothy Liebes, the weaver and designer, and that. group of artistic, interesting people also.

Teiser: She had studied in Paris, had she?

Wollenberg: Yes. She too had begun by studying with Octavia Holden.

Teiser : Was she from San Francisco?

Wollenberg: I think she was from California, but I'm not sure. I have forgotten. [added later:] She was born in Los Gatos.

Teiser : Whom had she studied with in Paris, do you know?

Wollengerg: She studied with Rose Adler, I believe, and others I have forgotten. There were some very fine binders. The French binders, of course, were quite far ahead in the modern theory, in my estimation.

Now, there was this famous Ignatz Wiemeler in Frankfurt, and the ~aheysfthadstudied with Wiemeler, and then went on and studied in France. I believe that Belle studied in France and not in Germany. She may have. You know, those things didn't really mean too much to me, because I wasn't that engrossed in binding. T liked it, and T liked doing it, I didn't pay that much attention to such details.

* Herbert and Peter (Mrs. Herbert) Fahey. Mrs. Fahey's maiden name was Edna Peter, but she was always known during her years as a bookbinder as Peter. Teiser: But she worked, definitely, in the French tradition?

Wollenberg: Oh, very definitely. I do the same thing.

Teiser: Can you explain the difference between that tradition and any others? Or can you explain just what it is?

Wollenberg : In the French tradition many artisans are involved in the completion of a binding. First there is a design, often created by a well-known artist who has some background in binding. The design is then incorporated into the book by a number of craftsmen. One workman will do the sewing, another the gilding of the edges. A third person will put on the leather and probably a fourth, who is possibly the most skilled, will execute the entire design. In most other countries the work is usually completed by a single binder.

While I follow the French "style" of binding, I do all of the work personally.

One of the reasons for the great interest in hand binding in France, many of their fine books are published either in sheets or simple paper bindings.

In my opinion, the French style includes more details- -consequently more tine is involved.

Teiser : You have said the French were ahead in the modern theory. How do you mean that?

Wollenberg: The French were, I believe, the first to realize that the book was the most important thing. Now, if you go back over the old, old books that you find, there are very few bindings that have any relationship to the book. It might have a coat of arms on it of the person who ordered the book. Many of the fine French artists designed book bindings. They decided that the book was important and that the design should have a relationship to the book--

Teiser : The design of the cover?

Wollenberg: Yes. I believe they were among the first who did this.

Teiser: Nineteenth-century English bindings, leather bindings, as I recall, were likely to be nicely done,.maybe undecorated, or with a simple border; not a real design.

Wollenberg: Right. There was a traditional type of design one put on a book. Teiser : Any book?

Wollenberg: Almost any book, yes. But as I say, if a lord or nobility had the book done, sometimes his crest went on the book. If it were a religious book, there was a particular religious design that might have been used. But the leather design, or the traditional design, became more important than the book in some cases.

Even though the French might have been the first to decide that the book was more important, they were the first to go far beyond, and to explore. And sometimes, as far as I'm concerned, the designs are overdone, But that's a personal opinion.

Teiser: Do you mean overdone in elaborateness?

Wollenberg: In elaborateness, and using other materials that I don't care for.

Teiser: Is it sometimes that a book is simply a tour-de-force, and the binding of it goes beyond what the book is--

Wollenberg: Right. Well, you're saying that somebody designs this book and they don't care what they put it on, as long as the design comes out. That is.true only to an extent. All kinds of books are bound in France; but the very fine books are usually bound with the thought of the book being important.

Teiser: I'm thinking of someone like Philip Smith of England now. How do you characterize his very elaborate bindings? They seem to transcend books.

Wollenberg: That's what I meant to imply, that now even though the French were the first to do it, the English have followed and many, as is Philip Smith, are exploring. My feeling is, if one should take six or eightbindings of the same book and make a wall-piece out of them [as Philip Smith has done], that's fine; however, it is not my type of "thing."

Teiser : I suppose it comes down to some question of whether the book, in the end, is supposed to be read, or whether it's to be looked at on the outside.

Wollenberg: That is true, too. Of course, people [looking at a shelf of hand bound books] say, "Oh, I can't wait to take these books down." Very beautifully bound books must be handled in a particular way. On the other hand, when one binds a book, it should be bound so that it can be read.

Philip Smith is a fine binder. He is an artist, a painter and a designer, and he wants to explore and go beyond, and make it a form of art in itself. Teiser : Mrs. John I. Walter, where did she stand in this range?

Wollenberg: Mrs. Walter was a good binder. She studied in France, and then studied with Belle Young. She had a great sense of design.

Teiser: Her bindings, or the designs, didn't go beyond the books, then?

Wollenberg: No, I think in Mrs. Walter's bindings there was always a relationship more or less to the book. One doesn't have to go all the way, you know, but there should be a feeling that the book is important, and the design should not become more important. It should become something that just flows-there should be a balance.

Teiser : The Guild of Bookwo~kersJournal, winter 1973-4, has articles by you on Mrs. Walter, and by Peter Fahey on Belle McMurtry Young.- ~hcidentall~,did Mrs, ~alte;study with- Peter Fahey?

Wollenberg: I don't believe so. I know that Peter used to do the gold tops for her, and slipcases. I don't think that she really studied with her.

Teiser: Peter Fahey wrote that .Mrs. Walter studied with Mrs. Young. Who studied with her besides Mrs. Fahey herself and those you mentioned?

Wollenberg: With Belle Young? Mrs. A.B.C. Dohrmann, Mrs. Watson,--

'Teiser: Mrs. Douglas Watson?

Wollenberg: Yes. I put some names down here [on list]. A Mrs. Creech (and I don't know what her husband's name was) came from the Peninsula. I remember her saying to'me, "So many of our friends are getting divorced, and I figured that a husband and wife who didn't have very much in common should find a common interest. He was doing some amateur printing, and I decided to do binding, and so far, we're still married."

There was a Mrs. Moller, and I don't remember her except her name.

Teiser : There is an Ernestine E. Moller who exhibited in the 1939 Golden Gate International Exposition.

Wollenberg: It was probably her. But these people usually weren't there when we were. And sometimes I'd be by myself. But usually it would be with Phoebe and Martha. Phoebe is the daughter-in-law of .Mrs. A.B.C. Dohrmann. And Martha was Martha Alexander, and later Martha married Dr. Frank L. Gerbode. . A Bookbinding Studio

Teiser: ' You said that you picked up tools as they became available. Does that mean that there weren'tany around?

Wollenberg: Yes, not many were available. Miss Holden would tell me that somebody was going to stop binding, so we bought some through her. Harold made some of the tools. We had a carpenter build some of the equipment. Harold's father knew somebody who had these big stones-

Teiser : Lithograph stones?

Wollenberg: Lithograph stones. When we traveled we'd buy type-alphabets mostly, leather, decorated paper, et cetera.

Teiser: So you can't just sit down with a catalogue?

Wollenberg: One can now. The first type that I had, Belle Young ordered for me, and I bought things that she had available.

Teiser: You started setting up your own studio early?

Wollenberg: Right.

Teiser : So you knew you were that much interested then?

Wollenberg: I was very interested in it, and I also thought that it would keep me at home. I always had the feeling that when my children came home from school, it was nice to be home.

Teiser: What sort of books did you choose to work on at first?

Wollenberg: During the Depression some people sold their [fine] press books. We first started buying them at the book department of the Emporium.

Teiser: For the bindings or just as books?

Wollenberg: Not for the bindings. Some just as books. but mostly with the idea that maybe we would bind them. At one time, whenever we had a birthday or other events, each one of us.would give the other a book. On one of our anniversaries, I did a book for Harold as a surprise. We both had bought the same book.

Teiser: He has not done binding? Wollenberg: No, but he could do it. He does the boxes, and has for quite a while. He helps me with very heavy things. It wouldn't take long at all for him to bind because he's an electrician, a plumber; he does many things besides-being an engineer.

The only thing that might keep him from doing it is that he does things quickly. Whereas I might do other things quickly, I don't bind quickly. Or if T do I'm sorry afterwards. It does take patience.

Teiser: Don't you have to wait a long time between one operation and the next?

Wollenberg: Yes. One should do two books at one time. I haven't always done that, but if you are dolng binding, and doing it very seriously, you have at least two or three going at the same time.

Teiser : Have people here ever got together and done specialized aspects of binding, special tasks ,in a little group?

Wollenberg: I don't know. I know that some binders have other people do the designing for them, and some have one of the younger binders make boxes, or slipcases.

Teiser: I should think young people, in the period of collectives, would have got together to do that.

Wollenberg: Many of the young people are bookbinding but they have other jobs. Now Peter had, well, like an apprentice. She had Sheila Casey, who became a good binder. And Sheila became almost like an apprentice. Eleanor Hesthal helped Peter. However Eleanor was a fine binder prior to working with Peter. The younger people, I think, have talked about having a bindery. Somehow or other, it hasn't worked out, and particularly, I think, because they have had to do other work.

Teis er : Mostly people just work alone?

Wollenberg: I believe so.

Teiser: And most of your contemporaries the same?

Wollenberg: Right.

Teis er: You have occasionally accepted commissions?

Wollenberg: Rarely. Teiser: When you do a book on commission, do you confer about how the person who commissions it would like it done, the design and so forth?

Wollenberg: I've done so few. I choose the book and design it without consultation.

Teiser : They're not having books bound then, they're collecting your work.

Wollenberg : Yes.

Some of the younger people who are doing it professionally, may be given a particular book and perhaps have a consultation with the buyer.

Teiser : Who has books that you've done?

Wollenberg: Well, I did one for hnean's[~uncanOlmsted's] collection. I did one for the late Mr. Edwin Mayall, the man up in Stockton who had a fine collection. And Norman Strouse. And one that Warrren [Howell] asked me to do for the Paul Getty collection. I've done books for some of the family.

Teiser : Do the people ever come and look at the books you've done and try to buy them from you?

Wollenberg: Yes, but we wish to keep them for our own collection.

Recollections of Earlier Binders

Teiser : In the list of the people in the Bookbinders' Guild of California of 1902, *were there any of those people whom you knew?

Wollenberg: Octavia Holden.

Teiser : Did you know Paul Elder?

Wollenberg: I knew who he was. At one time I think Newbegin [John T. Newbegin of Newbegin's book store] had a bindery downstairs, when I first began to take binding. And I was down in that bindery, and if it were Newbegin, he asked me if I would like to work in the bindery, and they would pay me forty dollars a book. I thanked him very much and said I had two children and I really couldn't do it. But I believe they did have a bindery for a while.

* See pamphlet in The Bancroft Library. Teiser : Mrs. Phoebe Hearst is on the 1902 list.

Wollenberg: When we were looking up background material for the Mills College exhibit of women binders*, Mrs; Hearst was mentioned as a friend of Octavia Holden. I don't know whether she ever studied binding. I was surprised to hear that Bob Grabhorn studied binding. I heard that Jane Grabhorn studied with Peter. The Allens, Lewis and Dorothy, studied with Peter.

Teiser : Oh, I didn't know the Allens did.

Wollenberg: Yes, they were there a couple of years, from about '45 to '47.

Teiser: Bob Grabhorn studied with Ingeborg Borgeson in Paris.**

Wollenberg: I just heard that he had studied in France, and then, when he and Jane got married, he decided that she ought to know something about it and sent her to Peter.***

Teiser : Let me read. you some names from the 1939 exhibition at the Golden Gate International Exposition.**** Did you exhibit in that? t7ollenberg: No, because at that time I had stopped working. Well, I don't think I was that good, really.

Teiser: Peter Fahey I think was in charge.

Wollenberg: Yes she was. I didn't know her at that time.

Teiser: Let's see: of the people who exhibited I have [going through list of names] Jane Neylan, Eleanor Hesthal-

*Women and the Book: Modern Bookbinders, Mills College Library, 26 September-30 October 1976. For relationship of Miss Holden to Mrs. Hearst, see Herrick, P. 115.

**See interview with Robert Grabhorn, Fine Printing and the Grabhorn Press, Regional Oral g is tory Office, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley, 1968.

***See also Olmsted, p. 90.

****Morgan Gunst, Fine Bookbindings Exhibited at the Golden Gate International Exposition. San Francisco: Privately published, 1939. Wollenberg: Yes, I knew Eleanor.

Teiser: Hazel Dreis exhibited.* Did you know Hazel Dreis?

Wollenberg: No. If you said that word in front of Belle Young, she would have thrown you out. There was the "thing" at that time. Hazel Dreis had a great sense of design, and she had flair, and as far as Belle was concerned, she did =do good binding. And I must say that some of the books that I've seen were not well done technically. As far as Peter and Belle Young were concerned, she was not a good binder .

Teiser : Edith Diehlis not on this list, but did you know her?

Wollenberg: No. She wrote a two-volume book that many use. They were the two bibles. I still refer to them.**

Teiser : Did you start reading them when you started learning binding?

Wollenberg: Yes. As a matter of fact, Belle Young's notes were pretty much what Edith Diehl did.

Exhibitions and Exhibitors

Teiser : Did you look at the bindings at the fair?

Wollenberg: Oh, I certainly did! Belle Young told me about it, the different techniques. But I was not asked to exhibit, and I can understand it. These people had bound a long time and were much finer than me. /I/I Wollenberg: They [the exhibition jurors] wouldn't accept any books unless they were outstanding, which was right.

Teiser: Was that the first exhibit of fine binding that you had seen?

Wollenberg: Of that scope, yes.

Teiser : What I'm leading up to is, do exhibits inspire people? Do they instruct? What are their values?

*See Appendix B **Edith Diehl, Bookbinding: Its Background and Technique, 1946. Wollenberg: They certainly do both. After we started, the Hand Bookbinders of California became interested in exhibiting, and this was a good idea for binders to display their work for people to become aware of this art.

The first exhibit in which I participated was sponsored by the Guild of Book Workers at Museum West, July 1968, at Ghirardelli Square. The exhibit was arranged by Margaret Lecky [Mrs. Eleazer Lecky], a well-known Los Angeles binder and instructor who was a vice-president of the guild. A short time after that I exhibited in a show in Portland, Oregon, at the Craft Museum.

Teiser : How did the Hand Bookbinders organization get started?

Wollenberg: When we were in Denmark we went to the national library, and met a binder there. He was telling us how every month maybe twenty of them would get together and talk, and show and discuss their work. He said there were many of these groups in Europe. Harold and I got all excited about this, and when I came back I told Peter about it, and Peter would have nothing to do with it. But you must remember that Peter was not very well for many years. She had this terrible arthritis. She didn't want to be bothered with it.

By this time Gale Herrick had begun to study with Peter, and she said, "Harold and Leah told me about this thing, and they want to start it, and I think it's all nonsense." . .

Gale said, "On the contrary, it isn't." So we got together, and he really carried it through. Then I said to Warren [Howell] one day, 'You know, when one goes to England many of these antiquarian bookstores, or good bookstores, have exhibits of fine bindings ."

He said, "Anytime you want to." So for seven years--it will be our eighth year in 1981--we've exhibited in his windows, usually in November.

Teiser: What are the results of that, do you think? Do you ever get much feedback from those exhibitions?

Wollenberg: Yes. A number of the books have been sold and many people have inquired as to the availability of binders, resulting in a number of orders.

Teiser: Does Warren Howell get commissions?

Wollenberg: In the beginning he didn't, but now he does. In the beginning, he would-just give their names to prospective buyers. But in the last year or two I think he took a very small percentage. He has helped us immeasurably. Wollenberg: The young binders, particularly, cannot afford to do bindings on speculation. Warren Howell conrmissions fine bindings for sale. He usually has a number of them available. These include some of our local binders. Some have other jobs, and they do put out bindings with the idea of selling them.

Teiser: But the ones exhibited that are not for sale are the books that the rest of you have done for pleasure?

Wollenberg: Yes.

Teiser: I believe you said before we were taping that Peter Fahey didn't like to exhibit her books.

Wollenberg: As a matter of fact, she didn't have very many to exhibit. She was an instructor, and there wasn't much time for her to have pupils-and bind books herself when she wasn't feeling that well. Of course, she never would talk about it, but her strength was limited. However there are fine examples of Peter and Herbert's work in the Gunst collection at Stanford and the New York Public Library.

Teiser: She wasn't well before Herbert Fahey died, even?

Wollenberg: I wasn't aware of it then, but I have an idea that she wasn't too well. She had terrible arthritis, and it became progressively worse.

Teiser : I stopped you, in the chronology, at the time of the war. You said you had stopped binding during World War 11.

Wollenberg: There was a period when I tried painting, I tried weaving, I tried sculpture. None of it appealed to me. It was fun to do, but I didn't do very much or very well.

I went back to bookbinding; Harold started to become more interested, and that made a difference. Also traveling--we're always looking for things, particularly in Europe, the Orient, for papers, leathers, and tools.

Teiser: Are these papers for half-bindings?

Wollenberg: Could be used for both. I only used them as the decorated end papers, and for doubleur . But the Delpierre papers--it 's almost a shame to use them inside because they're so beautiful.

Teiser: You buy leathers, too?

Wollenberg: Yes. Teiser: Where especially?

Wollenberg: In Paris, at Julien. I get some from Russell, in London. I order them through others-J did when Peter was going to order some, or I do through Barbara Hiller. I bought some leathers in Mexico. In Mexico City we found a binder who was originally from Spain, and he had a Swiss binder working with him, and they were doing beautiful things. In Mexico the binder also had to make wallets and rings, picture frames, et cetera, in order to "make it." They were getting some orders for bindings from the very, very wealthy people.

Teiser: I never thought of leather-work of that kind as compatible, but of course it is.

Wollenberg: I'm sure if anybody took a Mexican and sat him down, you could teach him to do anything with his hands.

Teiser: Do you buy tools often, equipment?

Wollenberg: I bought an alphabet in France the last time we were there. I have been able to buy some alphabets from people who have stopped binding. So I do have a few different sizes, and different type- faces.

Teiser: You mentioned Byron Watters.

Wollenberg : Yes.

Teiser: Can you tell us about him?

Wollenberg: I can't tell you anything about him, except his wife was a very good friend of a friend of mine. I never even met her until her husband died. She was going to give most everything away to the Goodwill.

Teiser: He had a complete bindery, did he?

Wollenberg: Yes. I have some of it upstairs. She didn't know what to do with it, so she called and asked if we would come and look at it. So we bought quite a bit of it. I sold some of the things I had that were duplicates because his were better. He must have known the Grabhorns, as he had several Grabhorn books in sheets. Mrs. Watters told us he had a large collection of Grabhorn. He -had sold many of his books about two years before he died. Teiser: Books that he had bound? Wollenberg: I presume some. She didn't know, but she said that he sold most of the books of his collection. But there were very few that he bound that were left.

Teiser: Did he appear to be a good binder?

Wollenberg: Yes, he was a good binder. May have even taught himself, I don't know. He was, I believe, a banker.

Teiser : It sounds as if there's a limitless amount of equipment and supplies that one can absorb.

Wollenberg: It's very hard to get right now because there's so many people binding.

Teiser: Where are the best tools made?

Wollenberg: The ones I know about would be Germany and France and England. I'm sure that there are others.

Teiser: Are there firms that specialize in bookbinding tools?

Wollenberg: Oh yes.

Teiser: But still, you say there's a shortage?

Wollenberg: A well-known toolmaker of England went out of business because metal got too expensive. As far as I know, the man in Paris is still in business.

Teiser: These are very small craft shops?

Wollenberg: Some.

Some people use a pallet for type. I use single tools.

Teiser: Which did Herbert Fahey do?

Wollenberg: I don't know, but I believe he used single. I had the gold instruction from Belle Young. [i.e. stamping titles and designs in gold with tools.] Peter knew about gold. I only remember working once with Herbert, for him to show me a particular technique. I know he did most of the gold work for. their books.

Teiser: You have to have a very steady hand to do that, don't you?

Wollenberg: Yes, and it's getting harder for me to have a steady hand. I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking I'm going to try not to do beyond what I can do well. Peter Fahey and Other Teachers

Teiser: I keep taking you back to the end of Wbrld War 11; it was then you started working with Peter Fahey?

Wollenberg: After I'd been away from it for ten to twelve years. I think I had made a few purses out of very good leather. I should have had my head examined. But I had fun doing it. I made one pair of gloves with a lady who showed me, and that was kind of fun. But then I realized that if I were going back to bookbinding I had to have instruction, because I had forgotten too much. It was the discipline of going once a week, too, that was important. Then I became more interested and more interested, studying with her.

Teiser: Was she an inspiring sort of teacher?

Wollenberg: Yes, she really was, she was to me. Peter was very different with me than she was with the younger group. The reason was that I was older, and also I had studied with Belle Young. This made a big difference.

Teiser: Did she admire Belle Young?

Wollenberg: Very much.

Teiser: She had studied with her?

Wollenberg: Yes. When they came back from Europe, she did study with her, and they became very good friends. Peter and Herbert were very kind to Belle when she was no longer able to teach. Belle lived in a hotel downtown. They were very kind to her, and very nice; there was a nice friendship.

Teiser: Am I right in thinking that their styles of binding were somewhat different, however?

Wollenberg: Peter and Herbert, as I recall, first studied with Wiemeler. He was a famous German instructor. Then they studied in France. And also with Belle Young. It was the French style. As far as I knew, she taught the French.

Teiser: So your studying with her was a continuation of what you had earlier studied?

Wollenberg: Yes. And I think most of the people Peter instructed in the French type of binding, unless they specified that they wanted a faster type. Wo llenberg : Now, Dorothy and Lewis Allen told me that she started teaching them, and she did teach them this fine type of binding. They told her that they were glad to know the technique but they'd want to cempromise when they did their-own binding, and do this other type of binding.

Teiser: .Case binding?

Wollenberg: Case binding. She would teaah a specific thing. I know she was teaching someone how to sew books in quantities.

Teiser: Was Mrs. Fahey very much interested in design?

Wollenberg: Yes. As a matter of fact, she was an art teacher. She taught at grammar school level, and maybe in high schools--I don't know. Lewis Allen had her in grammar school as an art teacher.

Teiser : But design was an important aspect of bookbinding to her?

Wollenberg: Oh yes. But I think that it was more important to Belle Young, and Belle was a better designer than Peter. There's no question about it as far as I was concerned. But Peter was a good instructor. b {I {I Teiser: Robert Bruclcman, who I think is still binding--

Wollenberg: Oh yes, he's a darling.

Teiser: He worked out some very practical binding methods, didn' t he?

Wollenberg : Right. There is a man, Harry Green, who taught at San Francisco State University several years ago. He taught a very practical type of binding. But he did a fine job there, because he taught students how to save things, just their own papers that they wanted to save. And he taught them a very quick type of binding.

Teiser: There must be a place for it.

Wollenber g : There is a place for it, there definitely is, except that it's so costly to have it done that it's better to go to a machine bindery .

Teiser : I tell people who ask me about binders that they had better go and take a night-school course and learn to do it themselves, if they're going to repair their Peter Rabbit, or--

Wollenberg: Don't you have a professional list from the Hand Bookbinders? Teiser: Yes, but these are people who don't want to spend that much. They have a book they want just simply put back together so they can continue using it.

Wollenberg: Right, right. But I daresay that each one of these people would be willing to tell them that. I can't think of very many who wouldn't say, "This would be too costly.'!

Teiser: Oh, I've no doubt of that.

Wo-llenberg: I get this all the time, and I just say, for the time spent on your book, no matter how much you treasure it, if you haven't the money, have it done by machine.

Teiser: Someone was teaching hand binding at the YMCA.

Wollenberg: That was Robe'rt Lucas .

Teiser: To get back, were Peter Fahey's requirements high?

Wollenberg: Very,. Very high, for this type of binding. She would want it almost perfect. I used to go back to her, to visit her, or if I got "stuck" on something I'd call her and ask if I could have a lesson. You know, she'd always say, "Now I want to see that book when it's finished." I'd take my work and she'd take that magni- fying glass and inspect the gold work.

I'd say, "Now, Peter..." [laughter] Oh no, she was a perfectionist .

Teiser: You say she didn't encourage you to exhibit, however.

Wollenberg: No. She thought that if you were imbued with binding, you didn't need this.

Teiser: Work for its-own sake?

Wollenberg: Yes. But as I say, she was not too well.

Teiser: Well she must have believed in it enough to handle the 1939 exhibit.

Wollenberg: That's right. But she was much younger then, and I didn't know her then.

Teiser: If you were to look at books by unidentified binders, could you tell those who'd studied with her? Wollenberg: I am not sure.

Teiser: Who else studied with her?

Wollenberg: Well, Barbara Hiller is one. She, too, is an inspiring instructor.

Teiser: Did she study with her long?

Wollenberg: Yes, she was with her quite a while. Sheila Casey also. She did excellent work. Her forwarding was outstanding. I think almost everyone who studied with Peter had a very good foundation. Her standards were very high.

Teiser: Mrs. Michael Harrison, Maggie Harrison, I think did some bookbinding, but she didn't study with her, did she?

Wollenberg: No. She studied with Hazel Dreis. She had a beautiful bindery, but when I knew her she was not binding.

Teiser ; Does her bindery still exist?

Wollenberg: I unde-rstand that the bindery, including Michael Harrison's library, is to go to the University of California at Davis. He has a great love for Davis and hopes that their home will ultimately become a research center for ZTCD.

Teiser: Who else then of Peter Fahey's students--

Wollenber g : Well, Duncan Olmsted studied for many years. He had almost enough equipment for a bindery, but he never fully set up the

bindery. He did little binding up there [at his home in , Petaluma]. He'd come down to Peter's each week but became very dependent upon her. She got to the point where she wouldn't let him do things, and she'd do them. Consequently, it was very difficult for him when she died. He went to Barbara's for a while, and he has just a couple of books now that he's going to finish. However he has done some very beautiful work under Peter's direction.

Teiser: Did you have to resist her taking over jobs from you, or did she let you do everything?

Wollenberg: No, she let me do everything.

Teiser: You had a very good relationship, as a student?

Wollenberg: Yes I did. She was a very independent person. She would never admit that she was not well, and you realized that it was just tortuous for her to function, but she wouldn't let anybody help her; she wouldn't let us talk about it. Teiser: Last time I saw her, I think it was a party at Lawton Kennedy's, she was walking with a cane, and that was the first indication I ever had.

Wollenberg: Oh, for years she walked this way. Then her condition got so bad she would have to sit on a stool when she was teaching, and it was quite a concession. And then she got to the point where she'd take a chair and push the chair as a walker. She got to the point where she couldn't even do that.

She was a perfectionist and she was a very dominant person. Fortunately my relationship as a student of Peter's was quite different from that of her other students. As mentioned previously, it might have been due to my prior work with Belle Young and my age. The first time we went to Europe, every place we stopped there was a letter waiting that she'd written to her friends to tell them that we were coming. This was done not just for us, but she did these nice things for almost everybody. This is the way she was.

Teiser: Did her arthritis affect her manual dexterity?

Wollenberg: Oh yes, definitely.

Teiser: It was difficult for her to work?

Wollenberg : Oh, yes.

Teiser: Her own books that she did bind, where are they now?

Wollenberg: In the Gunst collection at Stanford, New York Public Library, and a few in private collections.

Teiser: The ones that she did were the ones that she and Herbert collab- orated on for the most part, were they?

Wollenberg: Yes.

Teiser: He didn't do any bindings on his own, did he?

Wollenberg: I don't know. He may have done the gold work, and she did the forwarding, the leather; and the design except for the gold.

When I knew him, he was a darling man. But he had a heart condition.

Teiser : I remember once going to take photographs of them, and Mrs. Fahey did not want her picture taken. I did take some of Mr. Fahey, and I think she wanted all the negatives. I didn't give them to her, so I still have one. Wollenberg: She was on the defensive all the time. The first time I went to see her, I practically walked out, and a couple of years went by. I just wanted to go to see her studio and never mentioned Belle Young at all. I just said I was-interested, and I think I just walked out, her ~nannerwas so ...p eculiar.

Then, later Belle called her and told her that I was coming. I don't think she ever remembered that I was there earlier. I never mentioned it to her.

Teiser: This was all on Pine Street?

Wollenberg: Yes.

Teiser: She made a move, did she not?

Wollenberg: Yes. She moved to Sacramento, near Divisadero.

Teiser : Did Mrs. Fahey continue teaching until the time of her death?

Wollenberg: She was teaching when she died.

EleanoreRamsey,studied with Peter too, before Peter died, but these are the young ones. Betty Lou [Beck Chaika] came from the East, but she studied with Barbara for a while. Don [Donald] Glaister studied with Barbara. I don't know whether he was w,ith Peter first. I believe Robert Lucas also studied with Peter.

Teiser : Almost everyone who's wdrking here studied either with her or with a student of hers-is that right?

Wollenberg: Yes,almost. Betty Lou is teaching now. Also the Kahles [Theo and Ann Kahle] maintain a school in Berkeley, Capricornus. Ann Kahle did not study with Peter.

Teiser : I should go back to the beginning of this line of descent: Belle McMurtry Young studied with Miss Holden.

Wollenberg: She did. So did Peter. I think she was the beginning of binding in this area. [Interview 2 : August 14, 19801i/i/

Teiser : We're speaking again of Mrs. Fahey-- -

Wollenberg: Her first name was Edna. Peter was her middle name, and I don't know what her maiden name was, I've forgotten. But she always was known as Peter "FZheyWwhen I first knew her and for many years, and then she changed it [the pronunciation] to "F%hey.'I

Teiser : You had indicated earlier to me that you came back into activity in bookbinding because of a feeling of some sort of obligation to the craft.

Wollenberg: Oh, I came back after trying several things, as I mentioned before. But when I came back, I didn't do it as an obligation. But later as I was studying with Peter, she had very few people, and I discussed it with Harold and said, "You know, I think it's a good thing for me to continue binding because there are so few people who are interested."

Then she began to get more students. The young people of this whole Bay Area decided that handwork was very important, .getting back to basics. Not only in bookbinding but in printing and calligraphy, and paper making.

The Hand Bookbinders of California and the 1978 Exhibition

Wollenberg: That was the reason when we came back from Europe, we had the idea of starting a group-

Teiser : What year was that?

Wollenberg: It was in the early '70s, I believe.* That was when all this restlessness was so evident among the younger people. When I suggested that we try to start this, I really didn't mean it on a large scale, as it later turned out. I meant it just as a sort of an intimate (for informal discussion) gathering.

Teiser: How many people are in the group now?

*The organizing meeting was held in March.1972. Wollenberg: There's over a hundred. They're not all binders. There are some calligraphers, there are some collectors. Some of them are in the East and a few in Europe.

For the 1978 exhibit* a committee of the Hand Bookbinders was formed chairedby Gale Herrick with Eugenle Candau, the librarian of San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, as the curator and organizer for the museum for the show.

We were told that they had never had an open house [for a preview] that was more crowded. They never sold more catalogues for any exhibit than they did for this exhibit.

Teiser : The exhibit itself: did you feel that it was representative of contemporary work?

Wollenberg: Definitely yes. We had nineteen foreign countries represented. The largest group of foreign bindings came from England. But of the French, we only had, I think, two or three.

Teiser : Why?

Wollenberg: Well, in the first place, the French are pretty snooty about binding. I don't think that they thought too much of American binders. They had not seen very much. Florence Walter was one of the few who studied over there years ago. Barbara Hiller was over there for a while, then had to come back because of family reasons.

The French, and most binders, bind when they get a connnission. They don't have many bindings for sale. They bind in commission, and they probably might have been able to ask for a loan of the books for exhibition. But they just didn't think this was very important.

Later, when this exhibit went to Philadelphia, a group of French binders made up a charter and came over.**I think they were impressed; they realized that there's much good binding done in this country.

Teiser: Has anyone ever thought of getting the American embassy in Paris to put in an exhibit there?

Wollenberg: I don't know. There is a young girl from Brussels who studied at the art school where Mademoiselle [Micheline de] Bellefroid teaches. Her name is Florence Dupont. She was here for a year

*Hand Bookbinding Today, An International Art, San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, March 22-May 7, 1978. **See Herrick, page 129. Wol .enberg: while studying gold tooling with Barbara Hiller. She stayed with Ann and Stan [Reinhard Staniford] Speck. Her family came over to San Francisco for a visit. The mother and father have an antique business right outside of Brussels. They took back some books done by Barbara Hiller's students. The books were very enthusiastically received, and were sent to an exhibit in Vienna.

Teiser : Has anyone else exhibited abroad?

Wollenberg: Florence Walter did.

Teiser: She had actual exhibits in Europe?

Wollenberg: At the Brussels fair. Sue [Susan Spring] Wilson, who is an American and lives here but studied in London with Denise Lubett, she has become a Designer Bookbinder*, and has shown in London. A number of other American binders have studied in Europe in recent years. Some of their work has been exhibited there.

Teiser : Have people from elsewhere given demonstrations or lectures here?

Wollenberg: Several of the English binders have been here. [Bernard] Middleton was here and gave a seminar and exhibit of binding on vellum. Philip Smith lectures frequently in the United States.

Teiser: Yes, he gave a lecture here, I think.

Wollenberg: Right. And Don Etherington.**

Teiser : So there's a good deal of international cross-fertilization?

Wollenberg: Yes. Particuarly with England. I think there are a great many bookbinders in the United States who are associate members of Designer Bookbinders. We get their newsletters, and we send'ours- to them. The Guild of Book Workers in New York is involved in this same type of exchange.

Teiser: It sounds as if the exhibit at the Museum of Modern Art here had done a great deal to stimulate that, though.

Wollenberg: Very. .

*A member of the British Organization, Designer Bookbinders.

**Donald Etherington, formerly of the Library of Congress, now at the University of Texas. Teiser: To go back to what it represented: if you had dropped in from the last century to see that exhibit, would it have given you a good idea of what's been going on?

Wollenberg: Yes, it covered the complete range of contemporarybookbinding.

A number of the books were decorated in such a way, with fragile materials, so that they would be practically impossible to endure much handling. However, my feeling is the binding should not detract from the ability to read the book.

Collections of Fine Bindings

Teiser: You say there are collectors in the hand bookbinders group. I didn't realize that.

Wollenberg: There are a few. One example is Norman and Charlotte Strouse. Mrs. Strouse is a binder also. Another is Mrs. Edwin Mayall.

Teiser: Are there many books by local bookbinders in the Gunst collection at Stanford?

Wollenberg: I know that Belle Young and the Faheys did some bindings for Morgan Gunst. . .

Teiser : Did he commission Mrs. Young to do them?

Wollenberg: Yes, to my knowledge.

Teiser : What are the notable local collections?

Wollenberg: Norman Strouse's, I believe, is the largest. He has a splendid collection of modern as well as old bindings.

Duncan [Olmsted] has quite a good collection, and Duncan, .each time he went to Europe, would take some books and leave them to be bound. I think one never did come back. I know when we went to Denmark, we went to see the man he had left one with. He would make dates with us but never be there when we arrived. I don't think Duncan's ever had the book returned to him. He has a very nice collection, although he has been selling some of them. Gale Herrick has one of the fine collections.

Teiser: Mrs. Elinor Heller has mostly foreign bindings? Wollenberg: I don't know. We have mutual friends; I have met her. I know that she has a fine collection, but I have never seen it.

Young; Bookbinders

Teiser: This is an announcement that you probably got of the fall schedule for the Pacific Center for the Book Arts. Betty Lou Beck is . teaching "Exploring Edition Binding."

Wollenberg: That is a type of binding for people who have things that they want to keep, but not necessarily to be so finely bound, edition binding. And there's a great need for that. It's a form of case binding often done by commercial binders.

Teiser: This Pacific Center, is it an outgrowth of that movement of young people being interested in crafts?

Wollenberg: Yes. They asked me if I would join and help sponsor it. I agreed. They sponsored the Wayzgoose Symposium that was held here in 1979, and that was a great success. This orpanization includes all forms of the book arts,not confined to binding. For a while it was held at Janice Schopfer's studio in San Fran- cisco. Then they took it over to Berkeley, and the Kala Institute is giving them the space.*

Studio Tour

Teiser: Could 'we look at your studio? [interview is continued in the bookbinding studio]

Wollenberg: This small room that is my bindery was used originally as a sewing room.

Here on the left is my standing press which was rebuilt from an old letter press. Next to it is this large chest of drawers containing all of my brass hand tools. These tools include many

*According to a 1981 announcment, "The Pacific Center for the Book Arts is a nonprofit organization formed in response to the need for an informational and educational center to serve West Coast book artists-printers, book designers, calligraphers, bookbinders, typographers, papermakers, illustrators, conservators, and others interested in the book arts." lollenberg: curves and straight lines in various widths used to make designs in blind and gold on the leather. There are also many stamps new and old. Some of the stamps Harold made for specific decorations.

Here are my alphabets. There are five sets in different sizes and t~eface. Like all of these brass tools, each letter has a separate handle. When we go into the other room I'll show you another sort of type in which the brass letters are fitted into individual type-holder handles or may be set in a line in a pallet. As I mentioned previously, I prefer to use them individ- ually.

Hanging on this wall are my roulettes of different widths. These are used by putting the long handle on my shoulder and guiding the wheel to produce a long line. Opposite on the table is the electric stove for heating these tools. Also on the table is the electric glue pot. At the end of the table is a lithograph stone on which I pare the leather. In this drawer are my French paring knives. On the shelf above are sharpening stones. As you can imagine, these knives must be kept extremely sharp.

Above the table is the peg board on which are hanging tools that are used regularly. Here are hammers, dividers, rules, straightedges, et cetera.. On the shelf below are weights of various sizes and shapes. Some of the most useful are these old flat irons. On the floor below the table is my nipping press.

The top of this table over here can be removed to use my lying press. Over the door hangs the plow that is used on the lying press. Near it, that wooden device with the strings is the sewing bench.

On the rack above the tool cabinet I store my leather. These skins we have collected in our travels.

In this next room we have. expanded the bindery to make space for this second standing press and for this guillotine cutter.

The drawers in this work bench store our collection of handmade decorated papers. Like the leathers, we had fun buying them on our trips. Here are some from France, Denmark, Italy, England and Japan.

Transcriber: Steven Wartofsky Final Typist: Marie Herold

TAPE GUIDE - Leah Wollenberg

Interview 1: August 8, 1980 tape 1, side A tape 1, side B tape 2, side A tape 2, side B

Interview 2: August. 14, 1980 tape 3, side A [side B not recorded]

STELLA PATRI Regional Oral History Off ice Room 486 Library The Bancrof t Library University of California Berkeley, California 94720

Hand Bookbinders of San Francisco Interviewee

Your full name Stella Nicole Patri

November 1, 1896 Date of birth Place nf Urth Montreal, Canada

Father's full name hedee Nicole

Quebec, Canada Father's place of birth

Mother's full name Eliaa Demers

Mother's place of birth Wnf real , Canada . .

Where did you grow up? San Francisco & bay area

~ighSchool and Art School in San Francisco 8. Europe Education INTERVIEW HISTORY

Stella Patri was born Stella Nicole in Montreal in 1896. Brought to San Francisco in 1900, she attended schools in that city and Mountain View, except for the year after the 1906 earthquake when the family returned to Canada. Following high school graduation, she worked as a craftswoman at Gump's and Miss Claye's in San Francisco; both specialized in Oriental art goods. In the evenings she studied at the Mark Hopkins Art Institute.

In 1927 she married the artist Giacomo Patri, and continued attending art classes. During World War I1 she was a welder in a shipyard. Later she worked in bookstores, Paul Elder's and Newbegin's in San Francisco and the Cottage Book Shop in San Rafael. Her abilities as a craftswoman, her knowledge of art, and her interest in books came together when, at the age of 62, she embarked upon a career as a restorer of fine and rare books.

Mrs. Patri's first experience in bookbinding was, as she recounts in her interview, with Octavia Holden, in 1938. Not until 1957 or 1958, however, did she resume that interest, by beginning to study with Peter Fahey. In 1960 she decided to retire from book shop work and go to Rome to study book restoring, a study she continued in Paris and London.before returning to the United States. In San Francisco once more, she began h'er new career by restoring books for the Library of the Special Collections of the University of California, San Francisco. . She has continued that work together with private commissions, but meanwhile traveling, and twice after the 1966 flood of the River Arno has gone to Florence. tb help with book restoration work there.

Organizations of which Mrs. Patri is a member include the International Institute of Conservation of Historical and Artistic Works, the American Institute of Conservation of Historical and Artistic Works, the Institute of Paper Conservation (London), the Guild of Book Workers (New York), and The Hand Bookbinders of California. She is an associate member of the English organization, Designer Bookbinders.

The interview was held in Mrs. Patri's North Beach flat in San Francisco where she lives and' has her studio. Mrs. Patri carefully reviewed the transcript but made few changes, mainly adding names requested by the editor.

Initial Interest in Bookbinding - [Interview 1: July 30, 1980lff

Teiser: Today is the last day in July, 1980, and we're interviewing Mrs. Stella Patri in her flat and studio in San Francisco. We have before us a copy of a book, White Collar, by Giacomo Patri, a novel in linoleum cuts.

Patri: -This is a recent reprint of it.* That is the original, you see? The second edition. The first must have been in 1938 or 1939. That is 1940. We printed it ourselves, at home. The thing was that I was to learn bookbinding, and bind it. As you see, it's individual sheets, and I was learning how to sew sections, which are not individual-sheets are folded sections. So this floored me; I didn't know how to do it.

Teiser: It has a metal spiral binding-

Patri: Yes, because they were individual sheets. I wanted to learn. I was going to bind them, 150 copies. And I'd never bound a book before. I called up the California School of Fine Arts then and said I wanted to learn bookbinding. And they said, well they didnl.t have a class, but they could recommend someone who would teach, Miss Octavia Hold.en; you've heard that name, haven't you? So I went to see her and sheundertookto show me how to bind a book. First of all, you don't start in on something when you've never done it before. So I brought some old books of my own, and took them apart, and then sewed them and bound them, and right away I knew I couldn't bind this book of Giacomo's. It was ready by that time. So it was done commercially, this binding.

##This symbol indicates that a tape or a segment of a tape has begun or ended. For a guide to the tapes see page 76. * Published in 1975 by Celestial Arts, Millbrae, California. Patri: I wanted to do bookbinding, not this particular book, but I wanted to do bookbinding. But I had three little boys, and it was just right after the Depression, and we had a very rugged time during the Depression, because Giacomo was working for the newspapers and he was laid off, and he was teaching Italian, and teaching fencing, and teaching --what else? Oh, he was singing on the radio, Italian songs on the Italian Hour. Fifteen minutes.

Teiser : Had he been born in Italy?

Patri: Yes, he was born in Italy, he came here when he was eighteen.

So that was the beginning of it [bookbinding]. I always wanted to continue, and it wasn't till after twenty years, after the boys were grown-by that time I was separated from my husband, and working in bookshops.

Teiser : Let me take you back to Octavia Holden. I guess she was forgotten for a long time, and then she's been more recently remembered. What was she like?

Patri: She was a very reserved English lady, woman-an English family, Holden, I'm sure-and maiden, and had a sister* who worked with the Red Cross in crafts for the soldiers at the Letterman Hospital. Miss Octavia taught bookbinding.

They lived on Jackson Street, above Fillmore. And she taught bookbinding, and everybody in San Francisco at that time who had studied bookbinding studied with Octavia Holden. Leah Wollenberg did. Mrs. Dohrmann, Mrs. A.B.C. Dohrmann, I think, studied with her. But Leah is the only one that I know.

Teiser: What kind of studio did she have?

Patri: It was in her home, and one room was turned into a bookbindery. A small room. She had a press, and enough equipment such as sewing benches, presses, glue pots, type for titles, to teach bookbinding.

Teiser: She wasn't a commercial binder?

Patri: No. She made things, for instance, for her church, the Episcopal church that's on Steiner and Union, to be sold at bazaars. Made desk sets, and engagement books. So they must have had an income. She came from an early California family, the Holdens. She had nephews, but neither she nor her sister had children.

- * Marian kolden Pope. Teiser : What style of binding would you say she did?

Patri: I don't know, I couldn't say. She had learnedin Paris, that's where she'd studied. Her sister had been sent to Paris to help the soldiers coming back, by the Red Cross. She was sent along as a guard or something, companion for her sister. Her sister couldn't go alone.

Teiser: Ladies didn't travel-

Patri: No, no, ladies didn't travel alone. So she studied bookbinding while her sister was teaching crafts and things like that to soldiers.

Teiser: Do you know who she studied with?

Patri : No, I don't know.. I would- say with the typical French binder. I didn't go far enough to know whether she had an ability for design; it was more the craft of sewing the book, and putting it into a case.

Teiser: Was she a good teacher?

Patri: As far as I can remember, yes. I had two books that I still have, very functional. They open;[laughter] they haven't fallen apart.

Teiser: So she taught you to do that well.

Patri: Yes. It was a basic method.

Teiser: . Was Belle McMurtry Young teaching at the same time?

Patri: I didn't know about her until later on, when I picked it up again with Peter Fahey. Then I learned about Mrs. Young, but by that time Mrs. Young was no longer teaching. I didn't know anything about anyone except Octavia Holden.

Teiser : You didn't meet other binders in her studio?

Patri: No.

Teiser: Edna Peter Fahey--she had earlier, as her husband had, pronounced it FZhey, and later she called it F;hey.

Patri: After she came back from Ireland, and heard it pronounced Fahey.

Teiser : That was after Herbert Fahey's death, wasn't it? I think he would have been surprised. Patri: Yes, I think so too.

Teiser: Then, after you got your sons going--let's put their names on the record.

Patri: All right. My oldest son is Piero, and'the second son is Ramo, and the third son is Tito. They were all born within three and a half years; they were very close. So you can see, I had no time for bookbinding.

Also, for bookbinding you have to have a room where you can close it. You could (if you had time, and weren't worried about meals and all the other things that raising children mean, and could close the door) then when they're asleep or something, you could go in and work a little bit.

But bookbinding is a long process. It isn't something that you can just sit down and do and then close the door. You can't. It's folding, and pasting, and then letting it dry, and then doing something else. So it's more than just a hobby like knitting that you could drop and pick up again.. .

Teiser: Did you do any kind of crafts during those years, or arts?

Patri: No. It was just taking care of the family.

Teiser: So about what year, then, did you go again to bookbinding?

Patri: Well, in 1952. Yes, by that time my oldest son had gotten a scholarship to study at UC, in architecture. And after about a year we decided that he should go to Italy, to study there.

By that time we had a house in Corte Madera. We sold the house, and we all decided to go to Italy, so that he could go. Because, you see we tried to teach the children Italian, but I'm not an Italian, and the language was foreign to me, although I tried to learn it. And Giacomo's parents talked a dialect, from their section of Italy.

Teiser : Where were they from?

Patri: From Piedmont. We had a teacher a couple of times; but little children, learning once a week, a half-hour or an hour, it doesn't work. And in schools at that time, they were only teaching Spanish and German, and French. Now they teach more; they're more aware, I think, of languages for children.

Teiser: So the whole family packed up and went to Italy? Patri: Yes. Except the middle son. He decided he didn't want to go. So he went into the navy. It was time for him to do something.

And we went to Italy, the four of us: the youngest, the oldest, and my husband and I.

Teiser: Where did you go?

Patri: Milano, because Giacomo had cousins there, and that's where the architectural school was that Piero was studying at.

Teiser: Did you become aware then, again, of bookbinding?

Patri: Yes, I did, and T looked it up, and there was a very famous bookbinder. But he was teaching in a college, and they wouldn't allow me to go there. The only time I could have gone would be at six o'clock at night, the other end of the city. And it was inconvenient, because we were living there, and I had to cook, you know--looked after the family, just moved [laughs] the whole thing to Italy.

So I decided, well, it wasn't to be; so I didn't.

Teiser: But you continued that much interested in it?

Patri: Oh yes. In fact, I had bought a lying press when I was studying with Octavia Holden. And all these years, I still have it. I wouldn't part with it. I don't use it any more, because there are better presses than that, but I wouldn't part with it.

Then, after the divorce, that was twenty-five years after we'd been married, I went to work in bookshops.

Studying with Peter and Herbert Fahey

Patri: Then I decided on my day off I would study bookbinding, and I went to Peter Fahey, went to see her and started lessons. So all I had was the one lying press, I had nothing else. You need other things to be a bookbinder. You have to have tools and everything. So you just keep on going to your teacher once a week. It takes a long time to do a book. I kept on doing this for two or three years.

Teiser: What year was it that you started to work with Peter Fahey?

Patrf: I would say '58, '57 or '58, about that time.

Teiser: That's when Herbert Fahey died? Patri.: No, he hadn'tdied yet*, and I studied with him, too, for a while.

Teiser: They had specialties, didn't they?

Patri: Yes. Herbert taught finishing, which is doing the gold work, and the printing of the titles. And Peter would do the sewing and mounting, you know, forwarding, putting the book together.

Teiser: He, if I remember, was a compositor. Patri: Yes. With one of the big printing, prestigious ...I forget the name of them--** \

Then Herbert died suddenly, and by that time I was working in San Rafael at the Cottage Book Shop, and living in San Anselmo. But I came to San Francisco every Wednesday, to go to Peter's.

Teiser: By then, she was the one person everyone studied with, wasn't she?

Patri: Yes, she was the only one that you could study with around here. Eleanor Hesthal, Leah Wollenberg, Sheila Casey. Then Barbara Hiller started with her, and several other people whose names I don't remember.

Teiser: Did she take two people at a time, or was it individual?

Patri: No, individual. The only other person would be Eleanor, who was not studying with her but was sort of her man Friday, and would come and go. And Leah Wollenberg, I remember, used to come once in a while. She'd studied already with Peter, and was on her own already. But sometimes you have a problem, and you just don't know, so you come for an extra lesson, like a booster.

Teiser: Was it expensive to study with someone that way?

Patri: No, it wasn't. I don't think she was charging enough at that time: $5 a session.

Teiser: How long was the session?

Patri: It was supposed to be a couple of hours, but it always lasted longer. Because you're in the middle of the thing, and you have to finish it. There was never any pressure; it was wonderful, really.

*Herbert Fahey died in 1959. **Patterson and Hall. Teiser: Was she a good teacher?

Patri: She was a good teacher in a way, but she never explained anything, why you did it. You do it this way--finito. I understand now teachers will say, "Well, if you don't do it this way, this is what's . going to happen, so you shouldn't do it this way." Which is the correct way to teach.

But Peter I don't think was sure of herself, because I remember, after Herbert died one day she was feeling rather low, I think, and she said, "I don't know what I'm going to do."

And I said, ''Why don' t you have a school?" "Oh," she said, "Oh I couldn't do it, I couldn't teach, I just couldn't."

You see, I think when Peter and Herbert came back from Europe-- they had spent two years in Europe, at the height of the Depression. And they had intended to set themselves up as fine binders, like there are in Paris. But they couldn't make it go, financially. So then Herbert went.back to his job.

Teiser: He had studied bookbinding in Paris, too?

Patri:: Both of them studied in Germany.

Teiser: Do you know with whom?

Patri: Yes, with Ignatz Wiemeler, one of the very finest binders there. And there they met Gerhard Gerlach. I don't know if you're heard of him, a young German. And Kathryn Something, an American girl who was studying there.

Later Kathryn married Gerhard, and they moved to New York, where he taught at Columbia University. And he was a very fine bookbinder.

Teiser: Was he studying at the same time they were?

Patri: The same time they were. The four of them became very good friends, and as I.say, Peter and Herbert came back thinking they would establish--

Teiser: Excuse me, did they study in France, too, then?

Patri: Yes, I believe they dfd, I'm not quite sure about that. But their main studies were in Germany.

Teiser: Did their style seem to be more German than French?

Patri: No no, I think it was more the French style. Teiser: I might as well repeat something now that I've heard, that a wealthy collector who collected French bindings, and very few American, said that Peter Fahey was excellent at taking care of books, but that her work was not pleasing, implying,I think, that it was not French enough.

Patri: The thing is, that in bookbinding, you might be a very good bookbinder in sewing, forwarding the book, and covering it with leather. But the French, it's the design that goes on that counts.

Teiser: This collector, I think, was. interested in Paul Bonet.

Patri: Well. Now you see, in France, Bonet never touched a book. He did the design on paper, somebody else did the work. It's quite different.

Teiser: Mrs. Walter was strong on design, was she not?

Patrf: Yes. She was quite good at design. I don't think Peter was good at all.

Teiser: When you study with someone like Peter Fahey, who is good at technique, does she have you do somethfng over and over until it's right, or what?

Patri: You have to do it right the first time! [laughs] You can't do it over and over again, because it would ruin the paper.

Teiser: What happens if you make a mistake; what do you do?

Patri: A good teacher can always rectify a student's mistake, by fixing it up herself. She was a good teacher in that way. I would say that Peter was correct in saying that she couldn't teach, though, because she didn't explain. She loved paper; in fact, I believe that when they went to Europe she was more interested in interior decoration. But when they saw this exhibit of bookbinding in Germany, and Herbert was interested in it too, theybth went into it, and studied for a year there in Germany.

And Herbert was very good at finishing. Well this is a different thing, ffnishing, the gold-tooling; it's tremendous. And that's where you have to do things over and over again, but on little samples,. of boards just covered with leather, and do lines so that you get them straight and the gold brilliant. But when you're sewing a book, it's very simple, it's not that hard.

Teiser: Herbert Fahey, then, was not any better than she at design?

Patri: Yes, I think he was. I hope Peter doesn't turn over in her--[laughter] Teiser: Well--she didn't hold all of her opinions to herself.

Patri: But you didn't dare say anything to Peter, I mean--

Teiser: Her influence was certainly strong, but was it then mostly in the craft?

Patri: Yes, and it was enthusiasm that she had. And she loved beautiful colors, combinations. She could help you in choosing the correct paper, and the correct thickness of the board, and the color of the leather. She loved textures.

Patri: In that manner, she was very influential on her students.

Teiser: I'm just thinking, in a very large way, about the teaching of desfgn. How possible is it to teach design?

Patri: hat's a difficult thing to say. That's why I went into restoration, because I'm not a good designer. I don't know how to design.

Teiser: Do you think you could have learned?

Patri: I think so, but I was intimidated by my husband. He was good. It was just--I have something about that, you know, if somebody says, "Why don't you do this and that, why don't you--'' that stops it.

No, that's why I've never done a design. I have a couple of books there that have needed designs for twenty years, and I've never been able to decide what I wanlt. I enjoy it when I see a good design, but for me to copy something, I wouldn't want to do that. I wouldn't want to copy anybody else's design. -I'd want to do it. I can't, so I don't.

In France, the person who sews the book and puts it all together, and covers it with leather, is one. The one who does the design on paper is another. Then he sends it to the finisher, like Herbert was, who applies all the gold and the design and the color mosaics. He 's the third.

Now his is the only name that appears with the designer on the bbok.

Teiser: The finisher? I see. So those poor souls who do all the hard work--

Patri: Yes. You know they do the little silk headbands, all that. They don't count. Patri: Now, the English do everything themselves: they bind, they cover, they design, they finfsh. They do everything. And so do American bookbinders.

There's one exception. Putting the gold leaf on the edges of the book, that is very difficult, and mostly that's sent out to somebody who specializes. But Peter could do that, and she did it beautifully.

Teiser: How about making cases and chemises?

Patri: Yes, and boxes. She was very good at that. I'm good at that, too. But that's just a matter of measuring, and having it fit in. So it doesn't take much creative design ability, but more a structural --like an engineer, almost. You have to measure precisely the thickness of your material, and the thickness of your lining, so that when it closes, it will close properly.

Teiser: To go back, you were starting to study with Peter Fahey-

Patri: Oh yes.

Teiser: --one day a week.

.Patri: Yes, and I had a friend, Claire Falkenstein. I don't know if you know her. She's a sculptress and a metalworker, and she' had a brochure that was of an exhibit in France. Oh, it was big, bigger than that.

Teiser: Bigger than this tabloid newspaper?

Patri: Yes. And she wanted it bound. A copy for herself, a copy for Michel Tapie, who wrote the article, and a copy for someone else, and one for me. I bound four copies of it. And that was a big thing, because we had to get special boards, it was so big, and everything speical for it. Then I made boxes, and I bound books, all new things.

Then it came time for me to retire. I was getting along in years, sixty years, sixty-one. I decided that I -had to do something. I wasn't good at designing, but I thought there must be a lot of books that need repairing.

Teiser: In the meantime, had you been just doing your work at Peter Fahey's?

Patri: Yes, that's all. Because, although I had this lying press--but after you work eight hours a day in a bookshop, and you have to read book . reviews to keep up, to be able to sell, you don't feel like doing bookbinding at night. Learning Book Restoration in Europe

Patri: I decided that at sixty-two--oh, to begin with, there was an article in the UNESCO Courier. It's put out by the United Nations, and each month it's about a different subject. And this one issue, in 1957 -this I remember correctly, '57--was an article about books, how many books are printed all over the world, in India, and the trouble people have getting books, the poor people. And it told the story about a place in Rome, the Patalogica del Libro, where they restored books. I was intrigued by it, and I said to Peter, "I'd like to do that." And she said, "Well, why don't you? You know that article we saw in the UNESCO paper last year?" [interruption in tape]

It was 1958 by that time. So I looked it up, and I wrote to them. I thought, "That's what I want to do; I'll go'there. And I'll retire at sixty-two instead of sixty-five; I'll get less money, but my brain will be more active, and I'll be able to absorb more.

So I wrote to them, in English, and I'd called up my former husband and asked him if he would translate it into Italian, and then I would type it and sendit on to them. And it took two years of these letters going back and forth, and, yes, they had a school, no, they didn't take students, yes, no...

Finally I met a woman, through another friend, who was connected with the different governments. And she said, "Why don't you write to the American cultural attache in Rome? That's what they're for, exchange of culture."

So I did, and told him all my little story of how long I'd been writing to the Patologica del Libro, and everything. He wrote back (it was Mr. Brown) that he would look into it for me.

The next thing I heard, he said, yes, he'd been there, and yes, they had my letters, and yes, they would accept me. [laughter] I had written many times that I could speak a little Italian, I could understand more than speak; and that I was self-supporting, I wouldn't be a burden financially.

So I went, and I had my return ticket in case things didn't work out. And with ninety dollars a month from my social security, I went to Rome, and I lived on ninety dollars a month. You couldn't do it now. You could then. It wasn't very easy.

A dollar for a room, a night. I'd looked in the American Herald and there were all those people who advertised. I found a place with an Italian family. It was a palazzo, really, and I think probably was a servaqts' quarter, or their sons' quarters, and they let me have it at a dollar a night. Patri: Two rooms, a bathroom, and a little plug-in coffee pot. Then there was a dollar a day for food, and a dollar a day for carfare, stamps, buying a paperoncein a while. Weekends, going up to the little towns around Rome. There are some beautiful towns.

And I'd buy fruit, and wash it in the fountain. I had one meal a day outside. And, you know, you'd have Nescafe and a bun and an orange, that's all you'd eat for breakfast. We eat too much. I got along vary well; I: didn't lose any weight, I wasn't sick. I stayed there four months, till it got so hot I just couldn't stand the heat.

So I left, and I went to Paris, and I studied there, finishing, with a man, Jules ache. And he said, "Oh, I could give you a lesson everyday, and charge you for it. BU~what you need is practice. I told you before, you need practice.I1 He said, "Find yourself a place where you can practice, and then come once a week here."

I don't know how I found this woman, Jacqueline Hinstein, and she let me come to her place, gave me a key, and I had a little desk there.

So I would go there every day, and practice. You have to heat the tools, you see, and then pick up the gold. Then on the one day I would go to him. I was fortunate in Paris, though, because I had stayed with a friend of a friend, who also took me in for a dollar a day, so that was good. And we shared the food, so it was very pleasant in Paris.

And then I went to England, and on the way over-this has nothing to do with bookbinding, but do you want to hear it?

Teiser: Yes.

Patri: On the way over, on the train, I sat in the same compartment with a Canadian girl, her mother, and her aunt. They had just come from Switzerland, I think. And she had been studying in London, at the University of London, and she was going back, and the aunt and mother were going on to Scotland.

So we talked, and they had the New Yorker magazine, they let me read, I remember. And it was A Member of the Wedding by Carson McCullers. It was fascinating, it ran in the New ~orker, and I read it, I remember. So as we approached London, she said, "Oh, I know all the places, I'll find us--" So I said, "Do you mind if I go with you?" "Oh, no ,I1 they all said, "come. "

So we got to London, Victoria Station, and she starts calling. This is in July. You never go to London in July unless you have reservations. Everything was taken, no place, no place. We ended Patri: up at the Ritz. Twenty dollars a night for a room; but we shared. I think I was with the mother, yes, and the girl with her aunt, in the other room.

Luxury! The bathroom almost as big as this room, and those wonderful pipes, with the towels--heated pipes, you know. And we all took baths, and we washed our hair, and.we washed our clothes, and then we went out to dinner. And we came back. We were going to stay just the one night.

The next morning, I said, "I'm going out, I'm going to find something." The mother and aunt were leaving, and Jane said, "If you find something, sign up for me, too."

So I went into Bloomsbury. Bloomsbury area was the place where you got rooms and breakfast. And every door had a sign on it, "Full up." And there was one door that was open, and I didn't see the I sign! [laughs] I went in, and it was a young man; he wasn't English, he was Scandanavian, but he was running the place. And I said, "Two?" "No, just one, but it's a double bed." So I said,ltI'11 take it.l1

I paid. It was also a dollar a night. And the bathroom was upstairs, the toilet was downstairs; you've stayed in those? I went back and told Jane, and we gathered our things and went there.

I had been.given the name of Catherine Drummond, who was a bookseller in London. And she dealt with books on crafts, and out-of-print books. A friend of mine here in San Francisco was always buying all her books from Catherine Drummond on weaving. And--just to go and see what kind of a woman she is--I went to see Catherine Drummond, who had a shop upstairs on Little Russell Street, just back of Big Russell Street, near the British Museum.

And she was just having elevenses, and she said, "Oh, do have a cup of tea." A very proper Scottish lady. So I had a cup of tea and a piece of toast, with jam. Then she said, "Where are you staying?l1

And I sold her the experience of the night before, and she saidY1'Whydidn't you call me up, I would have put you up." This I found with the English, they're just marvelous. She'd never heard of me, never seen me before, and she would have put me up. -. I said, "Well, I've paid for two nights.at this other place." She said, "Come back the next day, and I'll figure out how much." Because I wanted to stay in London, and study in London.

Teiser: Did you know someone you wanted to study with? Patri: No, not yet, I hadn't found--but I knew, I had the names of -all the famous bookbinders, and I eventually went to see them all, and I remember Roger Powell said to me, "Well, what -do you want to know?" And I said, "Well, I want to know everything." I didn't even know what questions to ask, this is how naive I was.

I went back to Catherine, and she figured out I forget how much a week, with breakfast, and that I could cook my own meal at night. And it was within my budget, within my ninety dollars a month.

I went to see all the different--Roger Powell, and Peter Waters was in partnership with Roger-Powell. Sheila Waters living near there, with their three little boys. NO^ they're all in America. Peter Waters is at the Library of Congress.

I went to see Anthony Gardner, Sidney Cockerell. In fact, Roger Powell and his wife, Rita, put me up for the night, because they lived out of town, and there was no transportation back to London that evening. The English are just wonderful. They'd never seen me before, and here's this stupid woman who doesnWteven know what kind of questions to ask, and wants to know all about bookbinding! [laughs] Evidently an amateur, you know. He was the finest bookbinder in England, Roger Powell. I think I stayed in London four months.

Catherine Drummond lived in Ealing Common, which is about twenty- five minutes on the underground from Picadilly. And in Ealing Broadway was a high school, and there was a retired bookbinder there who was teaching.

He was more interested in hisgarden, and telling all about his garden, than in really teaching. But I learned enough about repairing books from him. I learned much in Rome about repairing paper, and that is my big--I'm very good at repairing paper.

Teiser: What was the background of the school in Rome?

Patri: It had been started by a man by the name of Gallo. But when he died, it sort of--his son was a chemist, so was his daughter, but I believe they were too young to carry on, and didn't have his directive quality.

So when I went there, there was an Ital,ian, Professor Muzzioli. He was more of an administrator rather than a bookbinder or a book- restorer. He was an administrator. Then there was another little professor, I forget his name...I forget these names. Dr. Franka Manganelli directed the restoration part of the institute.

Teiser: How many people were there, about? Patrf: I would say about fifteen, or twenty.

Teiser: Did each one have a specialty?

Patri: They did, because there were several women who did nothing but repairing paper. Also, the men were doing the covering. The women would do the sewing. But the salary was so low that they only worked there a half a day, from eight to twelve. They had to go somewhere else and work in the afternoon.

Teiser: Had it been established in association with a library?

Patri: No, not that I know of. Oh, it was a beautiful spot, the building. You see, this man Gallo had great ideas of what to do, repairing paper, de-acidifying. But everything was almost at a standstill when I was there, and just these few people there.

Teiser: Whose books did they repair?

Patri: I guess mostly libraries' or church libraries'. They were very old books, not eighteenth century, nineteenth century books-- sixteenth, fifteenth century.

So all I did there was repair paper.

Teiser: Was it worth it?

Patri: Ah! I should say! Sometimes I was very unhappy, because I was alone with one little woman who would tell me something but not go into detail; how to do it. So you had to sort of figure out yourself.

And then if nuns came in, well she just sort of ignored me, and concentrated on helping the nuns, and gave them the best tools. I would get the dullest ones. This sort of thing.

But it was well worth it. It was,a very lonely life, because you're only there from nine to twelve, so after you've seen all the museums, and gone to the Coliseum and climbed over everything all by yourself ...Every Sunday, I'd go to a small town. The Italians were very nice to me, the people I worked with, friendly, but these are poor people. They don't have a home to invite you to.

I never, only once, went to a home, when Signorina Menna who was teaching me was taken ill, and several other people and I went to see her at home. I could see right away. It was neat, but in Patri: the dining room was a couch, so you knew that somebody slept there. It wasn't her own home; it was with a married brother.

Teiser: When you went on to Paris, did what you learn there dovetail with what you had learned in Rome?

Patri: It was entirely different. It was working with leather, putting the gold on leather. But I: wanted to learn.

Telser: Is that necessary in repairing?

Patri: No, because I don't do any titles. I send my titles out to be done. It's something that you have to do continually, or you don't master the craft at all.

In Italy there was a young Turkish girl who had been sent by her government. You see that was the trouble: different governments would send somebody there, and that's why I didn't fit in. I was an individual. If I had been sent by my government ...Now this Turkish woman, Nezahat Sunerk, I've seen her twice when I've been to Turkey. She's the head of restoration at one of the big centers there. She was much younger than I was, and she was very homesick and lonely, too.

But in England, then I learned how to repair leather. Even if you know how to cover a book, how to lift the leather off, to splice. it, it's a little different. That was valuable, too, learning in London.

Teiser: Did you just work with that one man who was interested in that?

Patri: Yes. Mr. Sidders, who was retired from Rivi\ere$ the famous London bookbinding establishment. I visited all the others; I talked to them, that was all. But he was good. The commercial bookbinders in London had their apprentices, and they sent them once a week, to learn, to this man.

If the boy wants to learn, he's willing to teach. If they don't want to learn, if they just want to sit in the corner and read a funny-book, he marks them there, they've been there. It was up to them; they had the opportunity. He wasn't concerned. He couldn't go tell the people, don't send the boy, he's not learning.

You know, in England, at the British Museum, or rather the library--I understand now they've separated the library--just the men do the covering. The women do the headbands and the sewing.

Teiser: Did you work with Mr. Sidders every day?

* Rivisre & Son. Patri: Yes, every day.

Teiser: How long did you stay with him?

Patri: Four months. Altogether, I was a whole year in Europe.

Teiser: And getting varied experience.

Patri: yes, while I was at it. Even if I didn't use it all, I know how it's done, and I know what way it's good, and when it's bad. 11 ? 7 For.instance, Florence Walter's designs are very good, but her-- gold tooling is not. It should be smooth and even; the pressure of"- the tool has to be wen all along, because you use just a little tool, like this. Next time you see some of her books, you look at-:,

the gold tooling. So, I can appreciate more now. AS.- .-

Beginning a Career as a Book Restorer

Teiser: When you came home, then, what did you do?

Patri: That was it: who was going to hire me? My youngest son was married then, and living on Potrero Hill, and they were moving to Berkeley because his wife wanted to go to college. They had a little place.. on Potrero Hill, $45 a month for the rent, that I took. But $90 doesn't go as far in San Francisco, even then, as it did in Europe.: So I went around. - - The same friend who had sent me to Catherine Drummond was an editor at U.C. Medical Library. Because people who do research sometimes do not know how to write. They know the technical knowledge, but to have to explain it to a layman, it's quite different, and she was an editor.then. Worked with a famous doctor up there. And somehow or another, she talked the woman who was the head librarian there in the research library, not the big library where they do their books by machine but the research library, Mrs. Carmenina Tomassini, into seeing me. So I went to see Mrs. Tomassini. And the trouble is, you have nothing to show. You've been working in Rome on their materials, and I had nothing to show of restoration..;

At that time Peter was in Europe with her aunt Margaret, and she had let me use the studio. They had somebody staying there, but I could go in and work; and she had left a couple of things for me to do. So I did those things, and earned a little bit of money, and finally in about three months, Mrs. Tomassini called me up one day and said, "Come and get some books. We will try." She gave me nineteen books! Patri: Fortunately, I still had my little car, and I went there and got the books and started working on them. And when I think of what I charged... Nothing, peanuts actually. And the work that I did... Then Peter came,back, and also, I decided I didn't want to live in the Potrero, I didn't like it at all. Peter said, "Well why don't you come and live here with me?" Herbert was dead, and they had this extra room.

Teiser: Was that when she was still on-

Patri: On Pine Street, yes. We emptied that room, which she'd been using as sort of a storage area--where you put everything you don't want. And I painted the walls, and moved in with my cat (and she had her cat) and all my books.

Teiser: I think that was when I first met you.

Patri: I think so.

Teiser: So you used her studio to do your work?

Patri: Yes. And she started having more students, at night, two or three, and that's when Leah Wollenberg would come in, yes. And Eleanor Hesthal. She was a wonderful craftsman. She's old San Francisco, the Hesthals. Her grandfather had a wholesale millinery store here, when I was young. Hats were the style, with birds of paradise, and roses from France!

He built two houses on McAllister Street, above Steiner, between Steiner and Pierce, one for his daughter, who was Eleanor's mother, and one for himself, on the two lots, and they were beautiful old homes, with all the windows beveled, you know, and the doors.

She lived there and the youngest daughter still lives there with her husband, and one of Eleanor's nieces lives in the other house. They still own the two houses.

Teiser: Had she learned simply from Peter Fahey, too?

Patri: Yes.

Teiser: Had she studied elsewhere?

Patri: No, she never studied elsewhere. She might have studied with Belle McMurtry Young, but I don't know, I'm not sure about that. No, it was just Peter, 'I think. Patri: Eleanor was a wonderful craftsman, oh, she could do anything with her hands. But she had her own way of doing things, and Peter would say, 11No, no, no, Eleanor! No, no, child, that's not the way!" And Eleanor would just go ahead and do her own little way. [laughter] She was a marvelous person.

Teiser: Did she design books, too?

Patri: Yes, she could design, she could do anything she wanted to do. She was crippled. She had something the matter with the spine, so that' your spine curves, I don't know exactly. Her mother was a widow, and she and Mama used to go in their Cadillac to all the bookshops and have a wonderful time. Buy books.

So that Peter could never depend on Eleanor, you see, because Mama came first. There was a lfttle conflict there.

Teiser: But she helped Peter Fahey?

Patri: No, I: don't think she helped Peter.

Teiser: She just worked with her there?

Patri: Yes, did her own thing.

Teiser : What sort of thing did she do?

Patri: Well, Peter was teaching by the time I was there. They had done wedding books, and... Do you remember the '39 fair?

Teiser : I was going to ask you about it.

Patri: Did you know there was an exhibit on hand bookbinding, and it was Peter who set that whole thing up? And Eleanor helped her in that, and they both worked there.

Teiser: At a demonstration?

Patri: At a demonstration, yes, and I remember seeing it. That's how I first met Peter. But I had the little boys, then, you see. Then, when it was time for me to really get serious about this, I remembered Peter, and went to see her. I'd forgotten about how I met Peter the ffrst time; it was there.

Teiser: Were you impressed by the books exhibited at the 1939 Exposition?

Patri: Oh yes. And, oh, I was all wanting to, eager to start again. But I couldn't. So that's why. It's always been with me that I wanted to do it. I think it was valuable that I learned the restoration, and the paper. Patri: Well we have to talk about France.

Teiser: I'd like to come back--

Patri: Oh yes, that will be another time. [interruption in tape]

Teiser: When you started doing book restoration here, were there any people not attached to libraries who were restorers here?

Patri: I don't know. I didn't know any other bookbinders, except Peter, but I think that every bookbinder thinks that they can restore books. Well, I thought so, too.

You think you know how to sew, but would you know how to change the style of a dress by adding this, or taking this off, or something, bringing it up to the current style? And that's the way it is with books; you think you know, but you can't be a restorer unless you know the basic work, how a book is done, how the book is, how the paper is folded, what kind of paper, what kind of adhesive. All those things you have to know.

Teiser: You have to know what was done in the first place--

Patri: -before you can repair it.

Teiser: Does that mean that you had to study how old books were done?

Patri: Yes. And you learned by taking them apart, the binding. Bernard Middleton is the only one who has written anything on that.

But, still, if you have to depend on his writ~enword, it's very difficult.

[Interview 2: August 4, 1980]i/i/

Teiser: Last time we talked, you indicated you had trouble with doing destgn. But the fact is that you have completed books and exhibited them.

Patri: Not recently. Nothing new, you know.

Teiser: How many books have you done completely?

Patri: Not more than four to exhibit, really. Teiser: And what were those?

Patrf: I think I mentioned already, one of them was Claire Falkensteints--

Teiser: Oh yes, that was one.

Patri: Then, I did another one of hers-and I have it here. And I did one of Peter and Herbert Fahey's books, on finishing.

Teiser: How did you happen to do that?

Patri: I was studying with Peter and Herbert, at the time. And they had copies, unbound copies, and they gave me a copy of it. So I thought I'd bind it, and it was a way of learning; you see, you're learning, also, as you're going along. But I never could decide on the design for that book. It's all covered in leather, finished, just has the title on it and no design.

Teiser: Is that so bad?

Patri: No, it isn't bad. But .Iwould have liked to, but I couldn't do anything that would please me other than copying one of Herbert's designs, or Peter's designs, and I didn't want to do that. So I just left it pla-in. Teiser: What's the fourth book, then?

Patri: The fourth book? Oh, it was just a half-binding. I did take a few lessons with Barbara Hiller, and she was showing me a different way, a Bradel way of binding a book.

That was a-half-leather, with very fine paper by Claude del Pierre, who does beautiful papers in Paris. That was about it.

Teiser: If you do that kind of binding, you don't have to do designs, do you? The paper is the design.

Patri: Yes. I could show them to you after a while. The one on Claire Falkenstein, the one I have here, she did the design for the cover, and then I copied her design. Because it was her book, and.it was more or less a brochure of one of her exhibits in Paris, where she lived for many years. That was about it. You know, you have a feeling, or rather I do. If I can't do it well, I'm not going to do it at all.

I felt that I could do well at restoring, taking care of books, old books. And I don't mean old family bibles. I've done plenty of them, but that isn't what--I mean sixteenth-century, seventeenth- century books, rag paper, where you can take the book apart and wash it. Patri: You can't wash paper that is made today. And late nineteenth- century books, from 1850 on, the paper was very poor, you know that I'm sure. I don't like to do those books. And they're mostly cloth bindings, and I don't like to work with cloth. I like to work with I leather, or paper. Mostly paper, repairing the paper, the pages, and washing them, and putting them in good order.

Teiser: When you're given a codssion like that, what is there to discuss with the person whom you're doing it for?

Patri: Well, first you have to tell him that you have to examine the book. You can't just give a look at the book and give him a price, or tell him what you're going to do. You have to have the book for a while, and examine it, see the damage to the paper, to the spine, to the leather, to the cover. And examine it thoroughly.

I find that it's best to write, in a letter, what you're going to do, explaining what you'd -like to do, and giving him an alterna- tive.. Just a simple putting the cover back on, or taking the book apart, repairing the pages, washing.it if possible. De-acidifying, if it needs it, sizing it if it needs it; a new cover, or keeping the old cover. It depends, you see. This is still a big question among restorers. Is the original cover valuable? Even if it has no design on it. Just as a historical fact, how books were done in those days, and how crudely they were done, mostly.

Then you kite all this to the client, and give him a price. I usually try to tell him it'll be about this'price, but it might run a little more. Because you never know what you're going to find when you take a book apart. There may be a coat of glue on the spine that is so difficult to remove that it tears the paper. So then you have all the folds of the paper-to repair. Others may just come apart easily. You take the thread out, and it comes away very easily. And if they're willing to have it done, then you go ahead.

Teiser: Do you set yourself a time with them also?

Patri: Yes. I always say that I don't want to be rushed. If you have a time limit, you have that pressure, and I don't want that. I suppose if I were younger I might.

Teiser: Are you working on several books at once, then, when you're working?

Patri: Oh yes, you have to, because, for instance, if you're washing, after it's washed, all the pages are put between blotters to dry--at least that's the way I do it. So you have to dry a half a day, or a whole day. Then the next day you change the blotters, fresh blotters. After this has been done, you have time to do something else. I always have two or three things going. Teiser : What about the water here? When you're washing paper, do you have to use bottled water, or-- .

Tatri: No, I use tap water. The water here is quite good, I think. Some of the restorers of paper [used for] art, they have some sort of a method to take the iron out of the water. But I don't believe there's enough in our water; it's fairly good here.

Tef ser : So you don't have to make elaborate arrangements?

Patri: No. I find that the simplest thing is the best thing.

Tef ser : Do you have to use special solvents, say, for old glue?

Patri: The method to do.it is, if it won't come off, to put the book in a press and coat it with paste, and that softens the glue, and then you scrape it off.

Teiser : So you don't have to use any strong substances.

Patri: No. Just moisture would do it.

Teiser: Most of the books that you restore in this quite elaborate fashion-- do they-belongtolibraries, or do they belong to collectors?

Patri: Mostly to libraries. In fact, most of my work has been done with the University of California Medical Center, up on Parnassus. I've been doing their books for fifteen years now. It started with Mrs. Tomassini.and the nineteen books. Now I only take two at a time.

Teiser : What do they see as the aim of restoration? That they be preserved, or that they be usable?

Patri: That they be usable. It's a research library there, and if a student or a professor is writing a thesis on a subject, he has to get to the original, because it's been translated from Latin to German to French to English, and it always loses a bit in translation. This is my feeling, anyway; nobody's ever told me that, but...

Teis er : When you have a page that's say, partially destroyed, a piece torn off of it, so that some of the type is missing, do they ever get a facsimile from another edition, or anything of that sort?

Patri: Not that I know of. Only one book have I done that, because the last section was so mutilated, it was just in fragments. I don't know whether I did it correctly or not, but they were pleased with it. Patri: I asked the librarian to get a facsmilie of that section, because other libraries have most of these books, not all. And she got me photostats of the last section, and I Xeroxed them on handmade paper.

Teiser: Can you do that?! For heaven's sake!

Patri: I happened to be able to do it because my oldest son is an architect, and they had a Xerox machine in there. Now, you're supposed to be only able to use their type of paper. But I worked one Saturday with his secretary, and the two of us managed. Many sheets were jammed in there. It didn't run smoothly. But I finally got the whole section Xeroxed on handmade paper, and I repaired the original, and I included both in the book, in binding it, and sewing it. So that they had everything there.

But I was taught that replacing lost type is forgery. But I have seen some; T saw- a book in one of the local antiquarian's here, he showed it me, because I showed him this one. He said, "Let me show you this!" Well, he brought the most beautiful work I have ever seen. You couldn't see where the paper had been repaired. They had cut type to finish the words.

And I said, "Well, now I don't agree with this; I think this is forgery. Are you going to tell, when you sell this to a client, are you going to tell them?" "Oh, yes, we're going to tell them."

But then I feel that this client may not keep the book. He may sell it later on, or he dies...

Teiser: It ought to be printed on the page?

Patri: It ought to be indicated, you see. But it was beautiful work.

Teiser: I know a technician who thought that he might make a little business of doing it. Becauserarebookdealers do it whenever they want to.

Patri: Yes. I do not like to work with dealers. For one thing, they want it to look perfect, so you cannot tell. The way I look at it, if it's been destroyed, part of it, you have to show.

Just like in painting, there are two schools of thought. The in-painting of the red is a little shade different from the original, so that you can tell. It hasn't been always that way. That's the way I feel about ft. # # I Teiser: Do you do some work for individuals, too? Patri: Yes, I did. But I don't like to do itanymore, because I have enough work--the ideal situation of the library. They'd like to have all their books put in good condition, so that they all can be used. I could work for years and years and years...

But on the. other hand, they don 't 'allot enough money for fepairing. It's ridiculous.

Teiser: Is it difficult financially to work for individuals? Do individuals usually realize how much work it is?

Patri: Some of them, very few though. Most of them are collectors. Yes, they do, sometimes. One woman I had, who had borrowed a book, and her dog had chewed the spine of it a little bit. And I charged her very little. This is when I was beginning, you know. And I think I only charged her ten dollars, or something. She said, "My goodness, it only cost three dollars for the book!'' You know, that attitude.

Teiser: When you get into the family bible business, then you really have problems, don't you?

Patri: Yes. It runs into the hundreds of dollars, because most of them are these big, ornate bibles. I'm sure they sold them from door-to-door, and everybody had one. And all the births, the marriages, the deaths, are in the center there. And I try to discourgage them [from having the bibles repaired], because it's the first five or six sections that are torn, and it's such poor paper, you can't do a good job with it.

I suggest they take out this section with all the births and deaths and marriages, and make a nice little book out of that part. It's usually on coated paper, with decorations. If they want to read a bible, buy one, a good one.

Tef ser: Does anyone follow your- advice?

Patri;: No one. And it isn't my original idea. It was at the Lakeshore Press, in Chicago, Harold Tribole told me that, that's what he suggested. Sometimes they'd do it. [interruption in tape]

Teiser: People often ask us about having their books repaired. And sometimes I think it's suggested that they simply have slipcases made, or boxes.

Patri: The real collector will realize that. But just a person who has her grandmother's book, when the grandmother was a child, they don't realize what it is. For them it's valuable. But it isn't a first edltion, or a very rare book. Teiser: Sentimental value?

Patri: That's right.

Teiser: Are there many people here who do repairing now?

Patri: - I think most of the binders have to. They either have to teach or do this, because, at least around here, there aren't many people who commission fine bindings. Because they run into the hundreds of dollars, fine bindings. Somehow or other, there doesn't seem to be the market here.

Teiser: I'm surprised that under the circumstances, the bookbinding community is this large. Why do you think it is?

Patri: It's always surprising to me. Because they like the work, and they always think they're going to make a living out of it. You couldn't. -I couldn't. It's just because I'm retired and I have my social security.

Teiser: Did the Faheys make a living, or did Mrs. Fahey make a living?

Patri: I don't think so. Of course, we never discussed finances.

Teiser: Well, Mr. Fahey had a job--

Patri: He had a job. And then after he died, she had his social security, of course. I don't know her financial situation.

Teiser: It's not a very profitable occupation.

Patri: No, it isn't at all. It's like the young man in Oakland who makes paper. I said, "Can you make a living at making paper?"

He said, "We live poor, but we're happy. We like it." You make up your mind how much you're going to. . .

Teiser: The other people, however, who do restoring are people who are more interested in other kinds of bookbinding. There's no one else who specializes in it as you do?

Patri: I don't think so, no.

Teiser: Did Mrs. Fahey do much restoring?

Patri: No, she didn't like to do that. You have to be a little crazy, because it takes incredible pains to do this, have patience. I don't have patience with people, but with that kind of work I do. Teiser: Then most of your work has been for the university, so you haven't needed to publicize your work.

Patri: No, but when I first started, it was very difficult. For three months, I didn't know where to turn. But 'as I said, Mrs. Tomassini gave me those nineteen books, and that started it.

Teiser: What happened next?

Patri: Let us say also that doctors are all collectors, too. And then they would go the library and say, "I have this book, who shall I--" and then I would get them.

They would be, you see, special clients. I was trying to think how the word got around. And then it's become known among antiquarian bookshops. And they will go in bookstores and ask, and they'll give them my name. So I get telephone calls.

Teiser: When you got going really, about what year was that?

Patri: About fifteen years ago, I would say. So that would be 1965.

Restoring Books in Florenee After the Flood

Teiser: Then, when was the flood in Florence?

Patri: Sixty-six.

Teiser: How did you happen to go to Florence? What was the story behind that?

Patri: I had gone to Europe. I felt that I needed a vacation. I wanted to get some more leather. We can't buy good leather here in the United States, and I wanted to get things. So I decided to take one of the charters--always on a charter flight, because it's less expensive.

My youngest son had a grant, and he was going to Europe, too, so I met him in London. We were having breakfast together when we read in the papers a flood had happened in Florence. November 4, 1966.

And I said, "Oh, I have to go there!" He said, "Of course you do." But then, the more I thought about it, I couldn't go right then, because my role would be to repair books, not to take them out of the mud, carry them out. And there was lack of water, lack of food, and mud all over. I thought, if I slip and break a hip, I won't be much use. Patri: So I wrote to--oh, I thought, it's no use writing to the Italians; they're too excitable, they're in this mess. So I wrote to the cultural attach6 again, in Rome. I got a letter from him, saying that he had forwarded my letter to Professor So-and-so, who was at the head of the restoration in Florence.

And then I got a letter from this professor, saying that he'd sent it on to Professor Myron P. Gilmore, from Harvard, who was at 1 Tati, [Bernard] Berenson's place.* He was the resident professor that year, and he'd given him the-letter. Said I would hear from him.

Well I didn't hear from him, It was a month. I went to Paris, did my purchasing. Then I went to Italy for Christmas, and still no answer. Every time having mail forwarded, and no answer.

After Christmas I decided that I would go to Florence, between Christmas and New Year's, I left my luggage in Milan and went on. I got there, and Dr. Gilmore said, "Oh, yes, I have your letter right here. I was just going to answer it today. Go up in the Belvedere, ask for Roger Powell; he's the head up there."

So I went up to the Belvedere and started to work there for a month, as a volunteer.

Teiser: Had they taken books up there?

Patri: By that time they had dried books. The books were out of the mud.

Teiser: The books that were damaged,were they mainly in the national library there?

Patri: All the libraries. The English were working at the Biblioteca Nazionale of Florence.

Teiser: Which is right on the river!

Patri: It's right on the river, the lowest point in the river. Right back of Santa Croce. There were other libraries there. Everybody had damage.

Teiser: So that there was a central place they brought books from all of them?

*Owned now by Harvard University. Patri: No. Each library did their own repair work. There were teams from Germany, from Sweden, everywhere. But it just happened that the English went to the Biblioteca Nazionale.

Teiser: They must have had the largest damage.

Patri: Yes, they did. It was because the floor collapsed. During the war, they had put down in the basement two of their famous collections, Magliabechfana and Palatfne, for security from airplanes, .and they'd never taken them out of there. So they were in the basement, and then the floor collapsed. The books, and all the cards, the drawers of cataloguing, all fell down into this mud. It was really a disaster.

But by the time I got there, they had already started drying the books, in any way they could find heat. Ceramic kilns, or near them. Tobacco factories, where they dry the tobacco leaves.

By the time I got there, Roger Powell's wife, Rita Powell, had already trained sixteen young Italians, they were college age, how to take the dried books apart--without knowing Italian. It was marvelous how much she did.

They would cut the cords on each--most of the books had raised cords on the spine.

Teiser: They were old books?

Patri: Oh, yes! Not modern books, all old. All we were concerned with was these old books. First the book was photographed. It was given a number, then it was taken apart, the covers put in an envelope with the photograph of it, and the book wrapped in paper.

Then it went on to another place where they were washed. The first washing was at the railroad station,.where they had heat and hot water and things like that. They would hang them up on cords.* It was fantastic, the ingenuity of these people, to make do. They didn't know the language, they didn't know where to get materials. They would send somebody out, and they'd say, "Well, we want this, we want a colander, we want clothes pins, we want this, cords..." And it was really marvelous what they did.

At night we all stayed at the same pensione, and at the dinner table it was all talk of "Now how would we do this tomorrow?" "We've got to do this tomorrow," and "It didn't work today."

*See also page 61. Patri: The whole dinnertime was of this. There were binders from Wales, from the British Museum, thehandbookbinders. Mr. Howard M. Nixon, who was the head of the British Museum library, had organized these people. They would come for two weeks aod then go back to London, or England, wherever, or Wales, and then another crew would come. So they didn't have to stop their work. This was organized so that it was marvelous, really.

Elizabeth Greenhill came, and a few others.. There were people who would come in all the time. One woman came from New Pork. She had two weeks' vacation. She flew over just to volunteer to help. So did two Irish airline stewardesses.

I would just sit there and watch them, and my head was going this way. And the strange part of it is that they didn't agree on methods. The people from the British Museum--I remember this particularly--said, "The main thing is to hurry up and get the books back on the shelf." And the others would say, "No, now they're taken apart, we should de-acidify them, we should do them properly." And the men from the British Museum would have cut off a little bit of that.. . I used to think, "My goodness, here are these people, who are in the same craft, who speak the same language, and can't agree. No wonder we have Wars!"

Teiser: That turned out to be, then, a kind of international symposium of .- English-speaking people whom you might not have ever had the chance to meet.

Patrf: And just because I happened to be there.

Teiser : And were willing to do this-

Patri: Oh yes, of course. Then, after the month was over, I felt I had to come back, because T had books for the university. I do it on a yearly basis. Tn I send my bill in, before June, and I thought I had to come back, but I didn't', I should have stayed.

But anyhow, I got back, and--

Teiser: Before you leave Florence--what actually did you do? Did you have specialized tasks there?

Patri: Yes. We had to collate the books before they were taken apart. Some of these old books didn't have any pagination. Or the first section, the introduction, has no numbers. Sometimes Roman numerals. So we would have t.0 number them somehow, either with A,B,C and D, or Patri: Roman numerals, or some way. Because once the book is taken apart, you can't tell how to put it back together.

Teiser: What do you do, mark on the paper--

Patri: With pencil, yes. And if there was a drawing, what page was it near, between what pages. We had to do everything, and see that the covers were both there, that the photograph was there.

And then they were wrapped, and they were sent out to be washed. So that's what I was doing. And it's very strict. Oh it was so cold. It was in January, and we were up in the Belvedere, which is a fort. We were on the top floor. The thing was to keep these books as cold as possible. It was wonderful, otherwise mold would start.

Then Bernard Middleton, Anthony Cains, Chris Clarkson, all these fine binders, would go into the stacks and go through the books. And if they found mold, they would put a certain colored card, "this has to be treated for mold." If, "this is torn," what the treatment of the book had to be. They would do this.

Teiser: Do you think in the end that library was in better shape than before the flood?

Patri: No, I don't think so. The damage was done by the waters, the mud.

Teiser: But I mean, do you think the damage was repaired properly?

Patri: Oh yes.

Teiser : Was it in as good shape as it had been?

Patri: Oh, definitely. Because they might have been dirty, from dust.

Teiser: That's what I yondered, if it hadn't ended up better than--

Patri: Yes, I think probably. But about only 80 percent would they be able to save.

Tef ser: Really?! They lost 20 percent completely?

Patri: Because it depended on the paper. The shiny paper, starch paper, with photographs-sometimes they were art books--the minute they're wet they stick together like starch. And if they were too badly damaged, or the covers had become lost. But it was remarkable, the work they'd done there.

Teiser: So you came home? Patri: I came home, yes. Well, I'd hardly been home about a month when I got a telephone call. Now, CRIA was paying for this, Committee 'to Rescue Italian Art. And money had poured in from all over, everybody who loved Italy. And all this money was being used to pay for the transportation; and England was paying for their crew. And I got a telephone call from Paul Banks, in Chicago, at the Newberry Library, asking me if T would go back and help. By that time, Peter Waters was at the head of the restoration department. And they had to teach people who didn't know anything about bookmaking or bookbinding how to repair paper. A lot of the pages had been tom.

Because I could speak Italian, they asked me to come back, and I would be paid my fare over and per diem salary. So I said, "Well I'll think about it." I was dying to go back, of course; but I didn't know if I could leave the work for the university, and I called up Mrs. Jennie Yeazell, and she said, "Of course you can. Just drop it, and it will be carried over in the next year."

So I went over, and I was there two months then. They were setting up, on another floor in the Biblioteca itself by then, a whole apparatus. New tubs to wash. Because at the station, they had used these shallow tubs that the men used to wash their hands in, the workmen from the train. And they'd line them with polyester or vinyl, or something, and washed in there, and strung cords all over and hung them up on there. And they would have colored pins. :. "This is the beginning of one book," a red. "This is the end of it," a red. So primitive, the whole thing. But here at the Biblioteca they were organizing it. Oh, it was marvelous.

They designed new desks, new tubs to wash. They were making their own mending paper, and I was to teach them how to do it. But it wasn't my way, the way I'd learned it in Rome. I had to learn Peter Waters' way. But I was asked to because I knew something about it. And it was to start with five students, for one week,. and then the next week another five students, and then they'd put them down in a workshop and oversee them.

But they kept coming in, and we ended up with ten instead of five. But it was really quite rugged, because the equipment was just sort of Mickey Mouse. There were electric cords all over the floor, there'd be only two outlets; each one had to have a hot tacking iron. So it was awful, really.

Teiser: What were they doing?

Patri: They were using a tissue, a mending tissue that had been coated on one side with an adhesive. It's like the mending tapes that you buy now. They're transparent. They would make them, then we'd Patri: cut them with pinking shears. On a tear, you could put it on and tack ft, so it would stay there. Then the whole page would be put through a hot plate for a few seconds, with pressure. Then it would hold that way. It could stay there, be invisible.

E was doing it manually, where I would put paste on the tear, and tear a little piece of .mending tissue and put it on. And then when it was dry, with an eraser, erase the surface and just leave a few fibers out. So it was quite different. That's as near as I can explain without showing.

Teiser: Someone in Italy told us last year that a lot of young people from all over came.

Patri: It was an international thing. But to teach, it was just the Italians. Because these were unemployed young people mostly. And not only young; there were women there with grown children.

You see, there are many bookbinders in Florence, but the task was so tremendous that they couldn't do everything.

Teiser: You were there two months?

Patri: Two months, and then I came back, and then I went back another month later on. By that time, Peter Waters was no longer there, and it was Anthony Cains who was there, and he stayed for two years. And then the Italians decided that they didn't want the English there any more. They'd been there too long.

It was all established. In the basement is now the restoration laboratory. And you know there will be another flood.

Teiser: And that's just where it shouldn't be!

Patri: It's sad. /I /I Patrf: The laboratory was really a magnificent thing. The desks, everything that they designed was just perfect. There were twenty presses, one for each worker. They were sunk in the table, so that you could just slide your work in. Drawers designed for certain things, the size and everything. Tt was magnificent, I've never seen anything like it before or since.

Teiser: A couple of years ago in Trento, they had done a lot of restoration work in their museum. We asked who had restored the books (this was from war damage) and they said a convent near Florence. Patri: I don't know about that now. But I know when I was studying in Rome there were nuns that were coming there to be instructed to repair books, and that was before the flood. And the Vatican has always had a restoration center. So it wasn't anything new, you see. But it was such a catastrophe, and so many books at one time, that's what made it difficult.

Teiser: Well, then, you managed to keep up your work here in spite of these absences?

Patrf : Oh yes.

Teiser: When you came back and continued, did it change at all?

Patri: Oh no, you just went on.

Teiser: When was your last stint in Florence, what year?

Patri: Well it would be all the same year. The flood was in 1966, and it was all in 1967.

Paper, Apprentices, and Teachers

Teiser: Did that, then, increase your interest in paper?

Patri: Yes.

Teiser: How do you continue to learn about paper?

Patri: Well, I went to Japan--because in Rome they use Japanese paper to repair books. I took a trip, an Oriental trip that was organized by KQED, in 1974. And I stopped in Japan.

Oh no, I'd gone before then, I take it all back. I'd gone there about three years before, with just a friend, and she had organized the trip. There were four of us, and one of the stops was in Kyoto. I had letter.s, through' my work in Florence, when I went to Japan. I had all sorts of letters from the Library of Congress. Really, they put out the red carpet. Any&here, I could just go and see these people, and they would show me anything I wanted to see.

Teiser: Were these papermakers?

Patri: Well, it was papermakers and scroll repairers, mostly'on art. One bookbinder in Japan. But they're quite different from our books, you know. Patri: I had letters of introduction to all of these people, and I went to see them. And then the next time, in 1974, I went again, and I was taken to a papermaking village, where they made the paper, and bought paper, and ordered paper, and ordered drying boards. Because I felt that their method of repairing scrolls could be adapted to bookbinding, repairing of large pages.

Paper is just my main thing, I think. But not for art. It's quite different. Because for art you don't show it, you try to hide 2t. But in paper on books, it shows, it's all right. It's there. The book is to be used. With art it's visual, with a book it's usability.

Teiser: Did you go to some international conference, do I remember?

Patri: Yes, then I went, two years ago, in Japan, again. But there was very little paper. That was interesting-, though, too. I have friends now, in Tokyo. The conference was in Tokyo, but really the art center of restoration is in Kyoto.

Before the conference, I went for two weeks and I just sat in the room where they worked, in Mr. Iwataro Oka's establishment, and watched them repair scrolls. I'd written to Mr. Oka, who is one of the six treasures of Japan, who repairs the treasures of Japan, and asked him if I could come and what would his fee be, and they wrote back and said, "You're welcome to come any time, and do not speak of fees." They were just delightful.

I don't know Japanese, and they don't speak English. But there was one young man there, and one young woman who did. Donald Kelman had gone to Japan, it would be now fifteen years ago. I think on a grant from New York, to study scroll mounting. After the grant finished, he stayed on, and he's still there. And one child was born in Japan. He and his wife live there with their three children. He was there, and he could speak Japanese. He'd learned.

Then Nell Eddy, a young woman whose father had been a missionary in Japan. I think she was born there, and she was learning scroll mounting. So that was nice; they could explain a few things. But it's very businesslike, you can't stop and--you see somebody doing something over there, and she's working here, you can't stop -her work and ask her, ''What is this man doing, can you explain it to me?" I didn't feel that I could. Perhaps I should have. I just took notes. It was tiring, too, because they don't have chairs. I had to sit on a box. They work on the floor; they kneel. And / their tables are low. And it was cold--always cold. But it was so interesting, fascinating, you know. And I could apply some of these methods to repairing books. Teiser: At home have you taught anyone?

Patri: Yes, I have taught some. But I don't enjoy it, because I don't know all the answers. I don't know anything about chemistry. I could only say, "Well, you use this formula to wash paper." For instance, I only use plain water to wash paper, no additives to the water at all.

I can only tell them vaguely, but I feel that this isn't the way to teach. I could teach them manually how to do it, but not intellectually.

Teiser: You could have somebody sitting in the comer of your workshop?

Patri: Yes.

Teiser: But I don't suppose you do?

Patri: No, I don't, I can't. I would just give lessons. I'vebeen asked to have an apprentice. I did it once. Never again! I did it for two months. .A man came who was self-taught, and would I take him? And I said, "Well, I'll think about it." And then he wrote again the next year, did I think, and-I said yes, I thought, this will be a good experience, 1'11 learn how to-teach.

Every morning I got up and I had this terrible feeling, '%hat am I going to have him do today?" Awful!

Teiser: You're used to working by yourself.

Patri: And not enough work. You see, if you have a big establishment, you can have an apprentice. But that was the way I worked, just by myself. It was an unpleasant experience, because he wanted to hurry, hurry, learn as much as--well, I can see his point of view, too. But it didn't work out. So I've never had an apprentice. I've taken students, but they have to know bookbinding before I will teach them restoration.

Teiser: Have you had some successful ones? .Some students who have gone far?

Patri: Yes, some of them. But unfortunately, after three or four lessons they think they know, and they can put out their shingles, and-- So I became discouraged, and I stopped. I can still--if they have a problem, and they dontt know how to manage it, they can call me up and make an appointment, and I'11 help them, for a fee. But to come every week... It takes my time. I have to sit there, I have to show them how to do a thing, I have to watch them to see that they are doing it correctly. For an hour-and-a-half, I'd do nothing, Patri: I can't do my own work, and it's time lost, so.. .I feel that I would feel intimidated if I had somebody teaching me, and then stanzing over me, watching me.

Teiser: You belong to the Hand Bookbinders of California, do you not?

Patri: Yes.

Teiser: Do you get together with other people then, and exchange information?

Patri: That was the idea when we started, but it's never been done. We have vlsiting firemen come in, visiting bookbinders, and they can talk and tell us about their experience. We've had a couple of demonstrations where someone will demonstrate how they make headbands, how they sharpen their tools, how they do certain works, you see. But that's about all.

It hasn't functioned as we had hoped. Therets a little bit of, I can't explain it--they have their secrets that they donr t want to share. On the other hand, you may think, oh well, everybody knows this, why should I explain it? You feel foolish.

But it's quite difficult, because there is no school in America to teach.

Teiser: You'd have to be an apprentice?

Patri: And very few places who are apprenticing. I swear, I must get twelve letters a year from people from England that want to come to America. They've had two years there. Where could they go for an apprenticeship? They're trying to learn to work here in America.

Teiser: Are there some bookbinders here, in this area, who do have apprentices?

Patri: Not that I know of. The Kahles may, but I'm not sure about that. You know, over in Berkeley, Theo and Ann Kahle, Capricornus.

Bay Area Bookbinders

Teiser: Let me ask you about various people who have been prominent in bookbinding, if you have worked with any of these. Barbara Hiller?

Patri: Barbara Hiller and I shared a studio for a while. She started with Peter, and then went to France for a year, and when she came back I had a few lessons with h.er. Later we sh.ared a studio. Teiser: Then you had actually worked together?

Patri: No. I think we did one thing, it was a book that architect wanted to present to one of his clients, photographs of a house that he designed, and the alterations and how it grew.

There was a special, nice binding, and Barbara did the titling, that was it. I did the binding and she did the titling.

Teiser: And Duncan Olmsted?

Patri : Yes, well Duncan Olmsted also shared my studio, after Barbara left. But he just did his own work. I had three room down there on MvLsadero Street. It was on a hill, so there was a basement.'

Teiser: You've known Leah Wollenberg.

Patri: Yes, but I've never worked with Leah. Just when she was at Peter's, we were in the same studio, but that was all.

Teiser: Some of the younger ones--Bob Lucas?

Patri: Yes, Bob Lucas. No, I've never done any work with him. He does just repairing. I think--rebinding and repairing. Not--there's a difference between designing and repairing. You could repair ane. cover a whole book, that would be binding. But if you're adding a design . . to the cover, then you're another class.

Teiser: And there's a difference, actually, between repairing and restoring?

Patri : Yes, because if you're repairing, there's different steps. At least, Bob Lucas does that. He'll do just a minimal, just put in straps, invisible straps to hold the cover on, or put in a whole new leather cover on the spine.

So yes, there's different categories I would say.

Teiser: I suppose you can repair a book and make it usable without restoring the original design, necessarily, too?

Patri : Yes.

Teiser: Do you recall Edith Diehl?

Patri: Edith Diehl has written two volumes of the history and restoration of books.

Teiser: She was here for a time, was she not? Patri: I think she was, yes. Because Peter knew her. Yes, I think so.

Teiser: Are they good books ?

Patri: Well, her history book is very good. But her methods of restoring don't quite agree with what restorers think now. Things have changed. You get to know more, you realize the cheqical part of it now. What adhesives are good and what are not. And what you use to de-acidify . Since the flood!

Teiser: It was a big technical breakthrough?

Patri: A great technical upheaval, yes. So it's very important for bookbinders to know chemistry, really, for restoration. And I don't.

Teiser: Donald Glaister?

Patri: He studied with Barbara Hiller, and then he went to Europe for a year. He's a very fine binder, he does beautiful work, and he teaches also. He's in Mountain View.*

Teiser: Joann Miller?

Patri: Yes, Joann Miller studied with me. She lives on Alpine Terrace, and she called me, because here I was living just a block away from her--and she wanted to study with me, and I said, "Well, I don' t take beginners." I said, "Go see Peter Fahey or Barbara Hiller." And she went to Peter Fahey and studied with her till Peter died. Then she came to me. She was with me for two or three years, She was the only one who really stayed.

Teiser: Do you recall Sheila Casey?

Patri: Yes, Sheila Casey was one 'of Peter's students. She was trained by Peter.

Teiser: Is she still here?

Patri: She's still here. She was Peter's prize student, and I had hopes that, after Peter died, there could have been a group gotten together to continue Peter's work, with Sheila as the head of it. I mean teaching. Nothing came of it.

I wrote her--oh, I've written more letters trying to get things started. Nothing ever sort of worked.

*Now (1981) Palo Alto. Teiser: What became of Peter Fahey's tools and her equipment?

Patri: It was sold to Gale Herrick, and he kept what he needed, and then he sold the balance to the other bookbinders.

Teiser: So it's dispersed?

Patri : Yes. Leathers. There were papers. There were tools. He furnished his full studio with it.

Teiser: Is there a value in keeping a studio's equipment together?

Patri: Yes there is, because if yourre going to go into it, you never know what yourre going to need. It's better to have it right there, certain papers, than to have to go and search for it. Or leathers, you have to have a supply of them.

Teiser: Of course if you're just doing binding, it's a little more arbitrary, isn't it?

Patri: Yes. Because Irve sold all zqy tools of gold tooling. I sold them, because I realized that, unless you do it always, and every day, by the time you want to put a titleon, you have to practice and get all set up again. It takes too long.

Teiser: What I was about to say is, if you are doing restoring, probably . . there's no end to the things you might need.

Patri : Exactly.

Teiser: But if you're doing just out-of-hand binding, why, you might decide that since you donrt have that, you wontt do it that way, Is that right?

Patri: No, I don't think so.

Teiser: You still could use an infinite number of things?

Patri: Oh yes, you have to have all sorts of papers, all sorts of leathers, and the tools to work with.

Teiser: To go back to zqy list of bookbinders here: Mrs. Walter, did you ever work at all with her?

Patri : No. I knew Mrs. Walter.

Teiser: Mrs. A.B.C. Dohrmann?

Patri: Yes, she studied with Peter I believe, and Be'lle McMurtry Young, and so had Mrs. Walter. Teiser: What about exhibits? Are they valuable? Are they worth it?

Patri: As an ego trip, I guess they are. Well, I think you educate the public, too; to show what it is. Because .people don't know, really. They only think of art with a capital A if it's visual. And they don't realize bookbinding can be an art. But also some of the English bookbinders--Philip Smith carried it a little beyond what a book is. His are ART objects.

Teiser: He created the book wall. That always struck me as corrupting the book.

Patri: Yes! A book is something to hold in your hand and read. To me, the importance of a book is the content, and the cover's just to protect the words, the sentences, the paper.

Teiser: I remember that Warren Howell had a story about Morgan Gunst, and his collection, and everyone who came to look at it had to put on gloves.

Patri: If you're going to let people who have sharp nails or something handle books, you can scratch a fine binding; and they use beautiful leathers that have no grain. On a grained leather you could scratch it and it wouldn't show very much, put oil on it. But calf--it would show.

Teiser: These are the people who exhibited at the June and July 1968 show at Museum West. Donald Brown?

Patri: Oh yes, Donald Brown is a very fine artist. He was really trained as an architect. But he has some illness, or something, that he cannot do bookbinding now any more. He does designing. He designs Gale Herrick's books. And then Gale interprets the design. Oh, he was a marvelous craftsman, and color design, and texture, and everything. It's sad.

Teis e r : Drew H. Crosby ?

Patri : Well, Drew Crosby was a nurse. I don't know what happened--I think she's still in the city, but.. . She studied with Peter, that's how I met her. And she did have a bindery of her own, but I don't know what happened.

Teiser: Anson Herrick?

Patri: Oh, Anson Herrick was a very fine gentleman who taught himself bookbinding. And if there's anything that's worse [laughter]--because they learn from a book. It was in his head, and you couldn't make Patri: him change his ways, even if it was wrong. Peter had a terrible time with him. #/I- Patri: He was a retired gentleman. He wanted to take up woodwork, and his wife said, "Oh my god, all the s.awdust will be around, why don't you take up bookbinding instead?" [laughter] And that's why he did it.

Teiser: Margaret Lecky , from Los Angeles?

Patri: Yes, well she's a very fine bookbinder.

Teiser: Is she still in Los Angeles?

Patri: Yes, still in Los Angeles. She took private lessons from the Gerlachs. She was asked by Kathryn and Gerhardt to become their assistant in their workshop. She was with them for two years before coming to Los Angeles with her husband Eleazer and family.

Gerhardt Gerlach has recently died but Kathryn Gerlach is still bookbinding, in Vermont now. Margaret Lecky taught restoration and bookbinding. at UCLA for thirteen years. And then the head of the art department decided that they needed more room for art, and cut out the bookbinding courses. So now there's only an extension night class, and she teaches that each year. And she's always over-subscribed. . . She has eighteen pupils. It would kill me.

Teiser: Is somone teaching bookbinding at Mills College now?

Patri : Yes, Betty Lou Chaika. She was Betty Lou Beck. She teaches there, or she's going to teach there this fall. The Waiters studio was given to Mills, you know. Mrs. Walter's three daughters donated all the equipment, and money enough to continue, I think, for two or three years. She will teach if therers enough people that want to learn. But all the equipment is there at Mlls.

Teiser: So there are some places you can go to learn, but not regular schools? Patri: Yes--no [schools].

Teiser: Julia Patton, of La Jolla?

Patri: Oh--she's also died.

Teiser: Was she a good binder?

Patri : Yes, she studied with Margaret Lecky. But she didnrt do anything commercially. Teiser: Carol Y. Reis?

Patri: I don't think she's binding any more. She was one of Peter's students.

Teiser: Lois Stopple?

Patri: Yes, Lois Stopple is making patchwork quilts in Los Angeles, I think, or working in ceramics. No binding.

Teiser: Grace Margaret Webster?

Patri: She has died. I don't think she was active. She was connected with the U.C. Hospital, she was a chemist or something. It was an avocation more than a commercial-

Teiser: This brings up a'point. Of the bookbinders here, there aren't many who work at it as an occupation.

Patri: No. A few women binders have husbands with a good financial background.

Teiser: So that it can be a hobby very easily.

Patri: Very easily, yes. Leah takes a few commissions; she has. She does exceptional work. Her husband helps her. He makes the boxes -for them. It's a good combination.

Teiser: The international exhibit here two years ago, "Hand Bookbinding ~oday"--it seemed to me, as an observer, that it made people aware of bookbinding, and was quite stimulating. Do you think it has had any long-range effects? It was certainly a lot of work.

Patri: It was a lot of work, it was three years in the making. If it hadn't been for Gale Herrick, we would not have the Hand Bookbinders of California, and we wouldn't have had that exhibit. Because, here again, this is an avocation for him. He has the financial background, he has the time, he has the secretaries, and he could devote his time. When he makes up his mind to do something, he's going to do it! So we were very lucky because hecoulddo all this thing. There were some people who objected to his way of doing things, but it got done.

Teiser: You have traveled so much more than most of the binders here, I suppose, that you may have seen much of the material that was in the exhibit.

Patri: The work exhibited had to have been done within the last ten years. So. there were a lot that I had never seen or known about. I thought it was stimulating. 1t's fun. Why do artists exhibit? Teiser: Do you learn from an exhibit like that?

Patri: Yes, I think you learn not to do some things. [laughing]

Teiser: Like what?

Patri: Like too much on the book.

Yes, I think you learn; of course you learn. You learn to appreciate colors, and you see the gold tooling, how beautifully it's done in some works, and some not so--

Teiser: Did you say that you send your books out for titles, tooling, and so forth?

Patri: Yes.

Teiser: Who does them?

Patri: Most of the books I do are repairing. And I can put a label on a little patch-leather. Betty Lou does them for me. There are several people who have a machine. You set the type and you put the gold on. It's not done by hand.

Recent Work

Teiser: Is there anything you're doing now that's different from what you've been doing?

Patri: No. I've done several thidgs. I could show you the pictures of them. I did a little manuscript, it was either Hindu or in the Hindi language, and it was all done in their script, that beautiful script. But you couldn't wash that, because the ink would run. Printers' ink does not run, so you can wash, but manuscripts you can't. It was brought to me by a young woman for a friend in the Middle East. It had a cotton cover. It wasn't any bigger than this--

Teiser: --about three-and-a-half inches.

Patri: -and a back, a front, and the back had a flap, and then a cord around it tying. it up. Inside there were several drawings of goddesses sitting on lotuses, eight arms, and elephants.

And somebody had just put glue on some of the pages, .and the binding was all eaten, torn, everything. So I took it apart and mended the pages, and had to repair some of them. The back of the Patri: painting, not the figures, had been torn, so that I added a new piece of paper, you see, and then colored it to match the background.

This is good, you can do that. And then I made a new binding for it, and the young man was very pleased. He thought it was a little jewel. It's pleasing to have somebody pleased. On the other hand, I made a scrapbook for a man, and he had been saving all the paper clippings of his business. ,, He'd been in stocks.and things like that, and selling, and buying conglomerates, for forty-five years. And they had been pasted on just a scrapbook, a big scrapbook, with Elmer's Glue. Elmer's Glue you cannot dissolve. You must never use anything that is not reversible, that you can't take apart again. Everything that you use, the glue, the adhesives, you must be able to dissolve them, take it apart. So all these newspaper clippings I had to remove from the pages, wash them, de-acidify, and line them with Japanese paper, because they were so fragile. And then make sheets of acid-free board, and make a new binding for it, with posts, you know the--

Teiser: With metal posts?

Patri: Yes, metal posts, so that there was a back, and a front, and posts too. And he came to pick it up, and I showed him what I had done. There were pamphlets that had to be incorporated, there were packages of letters, there was a transcript of a trial. I had to make envelopes for those. And I showed him everything, he picked it up. I said, "I'll wrap it for you." "No, no, no." Went out, put it on the top of his car to unlock the door. Oh, I was,sick.

He handed me the check, no word, nothing about it. Nothing. I was just sick. For two days. I thought, he's going to put it on the back seat, and it was going to slide off. Nothing happened. It's all right. I got it back. He had his secretary call me up to find out where could he buy more pages?

I said., "You can't buy them. I made them.". He wanted ten more pages. He had more clippings to add on. So I said five dollars a sheet. Well, you have to cut the board, you have to have an extra little strip in the back, a piece of linen to hold the two, to make a hinge. YOU have to have the holes drilled, because I don't have a machine to do it. - So I got the book back, and it was in good condition. Evidently, nothing had happened to it. But it made me sick at the time.

Teiser: If he had brought you his new clippings, would you have had to de- acidify them? Patri: Yes. His secretary is going to come and pick them up, and I'm going to show her how to put them in, hopefully.

Teiser: I'm fascinated by your Xeroxing on handmade paper; I think that may be some big breakthrough.

Patri: Also now the Xerox machines are much better. They can Xerox in color now.

Teiser: Is Xerox permanent, do. you know?

Patri: I don't know. That's an idea, I might ask that when I go to Cambridge.

Teiser: Tell us, then, about your coming Cambridge trip.

Patri: Hoo, it's the most exciting thing! And there are so many people that I know, you see [getting out map] this is where I'm going to stay.

Teiser: What is the name of the conference?

Patri: It's the "International Conference on the Conservation of Library and Archive Materials .and the Graphic Arts, sponsored jointly by the Society of Archivists and Institute of Paper Conservation." Isn't that a great title? . . Teiser: Wonderful. And you're going at the end of this month?

Patri: No, the eighteenth of September. This is the program, both sides of the pages. Some of the finest people, Peter Waters is going to be there, Anthony Cains is going to be there--do you know Kayko Keyes? She's not a bookbinder, she's a paper restorer on art. She lives in Woodacres, and she's going to be one of the speakers.

Teiser: What was the name?

Patri: Kayko Keyes, she's Japanese, but married to an American.

Teiser: "Practical Aspects of Photographic Conservation," "Treatment of Modern Records, " my word. .. Patri: It's really exciting.

Transcriber: Steven Wartofsky Final Typist: Marie Herold TAPE GUIDE - Stella Patri

Interview 1: July 30, 1980 tape 1, side A tape 1, side B tape 2, side A

Interview 2: August 4, 1980 tape 2, side A continued tape 2, side B tape 3, side A tape 3, side B

DUNCAN OLMSTED Regional Oral History Off ice Room 486 Library The Bancroft Library University of California Berkeley, California 94720

Hand Bookbinders of San Francisco Interviewee

Your fdl same Duncan Howr Olmsted (please note there is no A in Olmsted) Date of birth&I190Ciwaf_hlrth! PQ4ASerni.a

Father's full name John Alexander Olmsted

Father's place of birth Quaker City, Ohio

Mother's full name Aleths Joce~hineOlmsted (please note C in Jocephine) &~o-rts~lacenf birth Petalma. Ca1 i tovnin

Where did you grow up? Petaluma. Califo~nis

Education AB University of Californ?9. RerkaT as.- 1Q3R INTERVIEW HISTORY

Duncan H. Olmsted is a member of a newspaper family that came to California at the turn of the twentieth century and owned, published, and edited papers in Marin and Sonoma counties. Among them was the Petaluma Argus-Courier, which Duncan Olmsted served as editor and publisher from 1950 until its sale in 1965.

Born in Petaluma in 1905, Mr. Olmsted attended local schools, then studied at the University of California, graduating witha B.A. in 1928. He went to work at the Argus-Courier, at first as circulation manager. Save for three years during World War I1 during whlch he was stationed first at Camp Roberts, California, and then at Ft. Knox, Kentucky, he devoted his entire career to the family newspaper.

He is, however, a man of many interests, havtng been since an early age an active theater-, opera- and concert-goer, sometimes traveling to San Francisco every day to attend these and other events. Long a book collector, he became interested in bookbinding at the Golden Gate International Exposition, and in 1942 began studying with Peter Fahey. He continued until her death, in 1974, as he recounts in his interview.

Mr. Olmsted has been president of The Book Club of California and Master of the Press of the Roxburghe Club, and an active member of the Friends of The Bancroft Library as well as The Hand Bookbinders of California. He has written several bibliographical articles for TTie Quarterly News-Letter of The Book Club of California. With the late David Magee, he compiled, 40 Years, A Chronolo~of Announcements and Keepsakes, The Rolrburghe Club of San Francisco, 1928-1967.

The interview was held at the rooms of The Book Club of California in San Francisco. He reviewed the transcript, making few changes, but adding a number of names and several quotations.

The 1939 Exposition arid the Faheys [Interview 1: September 23, 19801///I

Teiser: Your initial interest in bookbinding--when and how did it occur?

Olmsted: My initial interest came at the 1939 Exposition at Treasure Island. There was a very fine exhibit of bookbinding in the Palace of Fine lArts and also an atelier where Peter Fahey was showing how bookbinding is done. I was struck by the beauty of bookbinding, the various colors of leather and things like that. Since I am color blind, I thought that was an art form that I could pursue because it would be simply a case of putting a piece of leather on a book. Little did I know until I got into it that you matched colors of leathers with colors of ink and illustrations, and you make headbands with the right colors. Once I started binding, it meant that I had to have a great deal of help in color selection.

I talked to Peter Fahey at the time and asked her about taking lessons and she said, yes, she gave lessons but could not do anything until after the exposition was over. Then I asked if any of the books were for sale and she told me they were. We went around the exhibit and talked about the various books and she selected one which she thought would be a nice one to start my bookbinding collection. I bought a book bound by Lise L. Bataillel, a French binder. During the exposition, Helen Louise Boettger, a binder from Hackensack, New Jersey, came out to the exposition and gave a talk on binding. She had with her Mademoiselle Bataillel, who was her teacher in France and who as far as I know spoke no English.

After hearing Miss Boettger give this talk I tried to buy one of her bindings, but she said, no, they were not for sale. I asked, "Would you bind a book for me?" She said, "Wait until the war is over because you can't get any decent materials now."

////This symbol indicates that a tape or a segment of a tape has begun or ended. For a guide to the tapes see page 100. Teiser: That first book you bought, what was the title?

Olmsted: I can't remember...

Teiser: Does this imply that you were more interested in its exterior than its intertor?

Olmsted: [laughter] Yes, I bought it for the binding. I know there are some collectors who refuse to buy bindings on books that they cannot read, but that didn't bother me particularly. [looking at exhibit catalogue] Oh, here it is: Les Petites Fleurs de Saint Francois d'hssise. It was translated into the French by Andre perate'. It was illustrated by Maurice. Denis. *

Teiser: Were you attracted by the illustrations as well, or was it really just the binding?

Olmsted: I don't think I even -saw the illustrations. All I saw was the binding because the books were in cases and she could not take them out.

Teiser: Had you collected books before?

Olmsted: I collected books, yes.

Teiser: What had been your interest?

Olmsted: Fine printing and some Californiana.

Teiser: That's interesting that the exhibit at the fair should have started you, because one always wonders what the results of such efforts are, if they have specific results. But this one had at least one specific one.

Olmsted: Yes. When Mrs. Fahey told me that she would not teach until after the exposition was over, I asked her if there was another teacher available, and she mentioned Belle McMurtry Young. I thought she told me that Mrs. Young was living at the Fairmont Hotel. Where I got that impression I don't know, but I went up to the Fairmont Hotel to call on Mrs. Young and she was not there. I did not follow through. I waited until after the exposition was over and then went to the Faheys and started studying with them. I studied for one year and then I went into the army. I was in the army for three years and I resumed my studies after I came out. I continued working with them until Mrs. Fahey died.

*Published in Paris in 1919. Teiser: Did you in the end meet Mrs. Young?

Olmsted: I met Mrs. Young and commissioned a binding from her. I went to her studio and looked at her books, took several books of my own there which were either in sheets or bound, and asked her to select one to bind for me.

Teiser: Can you describe her studio? Do you remember?

Olmsted: I'm afraid I don't that weil. It .was just a bindery as I recall. After she closed her bindery, I bought a great deal of her equipment. Mrs. Fahey took part, and I took part.

Teiser: What was Mrs. Young like?

Olmsted: She was very much the grande dame I would say.

Teiser: Was she intimidating?

Olmsted: Not to me. I think she was to her students. I think she was to Peter Fahey. Peter Fahey did all of the gold tops for Mrs. Young and she also made all of the boxes or slip cases or whatever it was that Mrs. Young wanted.

Teiser: Do you remember which book Mrs. Young chose to bind?

~lmsted: Yes, she bound a Kelmscott--No, it was an Ashendene. [laughs] It was also The Little Flowers of St. Francis of Assisi, but it was in the original Italian. On the cover of the book she designed a representation of the church in Assisi, and of the birds-and the flowers. It is one of her very ornate bindings.

Teiser: You have to really trust someone to hand over a fine press book.

Olmsted: I never had to worry about a binder! I'm sure they appreciate it. Nearly all of the books that I have commissioned have been fine press books. The first book that I bound was a Kelmscott.

Teiser: Well, you trusted yourself, too!

Olmsted: I did. I trusted myself. I thought to myself, I'm not going to waste all of this time and money--because of course it doesn't cost too much (the materials that go into binding), but still it was something--on something that I don't want. So when I started on the Kelmscott I knew that I was working with competent teachers who could correct any mistake I might make. That is one of the advantages of bookbinding, that mistakes -can be corrected. Most steps are reversible. Teiser: When you started then, you worked with Herbert Fahey, too?

Olmsted: Yes, they were a team, a perfect team. Peter Fahey did all of the forwarding, which means everything up to and including covering the book with the leather. Herbert Fahey did'the finishing, which was the decoration--the blind and gold tooling; the onlay or inlay were done by Peter Fahey. She was a trafned artist, so I think that she did the design, perhaps with his suggestions as to what could be easily worked out on leather with tools.

Teiser: Wasn't he trained as a compositor?

Ohsted: Yes, he was first a printer, and they didn't take up binding until after they were married. I think they both studied with Octavia Holden. I'm not sure about that. In 1931 they took a trip around the world and were gone three years, spending a great deal of time in Europe studying bookbinding. They studied in Leipzig, Germany, with Ignatz Wiemeler, who was a great German binder between the two world wars. They studied with Mlle. M. Morin-Pons in Paris. Herbert also studied with Thomas Harrison and Douglas Cockerel1 in London. I hesitate to say this because I'm not sure, but I think Harrison was the man who was doing the gilding at the British Museum.

Teiser: Could you ch'aracterize Herbert Fahey?

Olmsted: I saw him only on occasional evenings when I was ready to do the gold work, the finishing. Then I would stay over. I came down [from Petaluma to San Francisco] in the afternoon and worked with Mrs. Fahey on the forwarding. When I was ready to decorate the book, I stayed over and worked with him for an hour or so. He was a very sincere man, very painstaking in his craftsmanship both as a printer and as a binder. I remember one time he said to me, "You've got to make a pattern." I said, "What difference does it make, it's sort of free." He said, "It does make a difference; you've got to make a pattern and follow it."

Peter told me that he practiced gold tooling for fifteen minutes every night if he was not working on a job in order to keep his hand in because he believed that tooling, like musicians playing an instrument, had to be done constantly.

Teiser: Peter Fahey was a woman who was hard to know...

Olmsted: I didn't think she was hard to know at all, at least I didn't find her so. She was a woman with very positive beliefs as far as technique of binding is concerned. She insisted that everything be done according to the traditional way. She was not at all interested in a new technique; that is, as far as I can recall. She was adapt- able as far as design is concerned because.she started out at a, time Olmsted: when bookbinding was decorative rather than descriptive (that is, . the design on the book often could be put on any book) whereas she developed to the point where she was willing to adapt her designs to the subject matter of the book. So she wjls innovative in that way.

Teiser: Perhaps as an artist it seemed easy for her to make that transition.

Olmsted: Perhaps so.

Teiser: But she was a purist in technique, is that correct?

Olmsted: Yes, and would not let you do any short cuts at all. She said, "It doesn't make any difference if it is covered up. The technique will show in the long run that it'spoorbinding.'' She had one what I would call bad habit of never explaining why you did a thing. To her that's the way you did it, and that's all there was to it.

Teiser: Did you come to understand why? Could you read why?

Olmsted: Well, I could read, but I don't know that I paid that much attention to it. I was not the kind of person who asked questions about technique. I was.-perfectly willing to accept what she told me. It's only other binders--other students of hers-who have told me they wanted to know why. I don't know that I ever questioned her.

Teiser: So you were very comfortable in your learning relationship with--

Olmsted: Yes, although towards the end she was so ill, she was so racked with pain with arthritis that it was difficult working with her. There was once.or twice when I thought of taking a leave of absence for a while because I didn't think I could take it any more. Then, because I understood why she was so irascible, I went on and I'm glad I did.

She was an excellent teacher in more ways than one, not only in telling you what to do and demonstrating it for you, but I could be working in another room and she would call in to me and say, "You're not holding your tool right. I can tell from the sound that you're not doing it right." She never taught me any tooling. I did it all under Herbert, and after Herbert died she suggested that I work with Eleanor Hesthal, who was a binder who had also done a lot of work with her and who had worked at the atelier at Treasure Island with her. I said, "No, it's not necessary. I think I know enough now and certainly it is time for me to be on my own." So I did work on my own.

But she would come in and watch me and, as I say, while I never saw her do any tooling--I never saw her take a tool in her hand-- she would tell me what I was doing wrong if there was something wrong. Teiser: It was Herbert Fahey who wrote the book, Finishing in Hand Bookbind- ing, wasn't it?

Olmsted: Both of them. They are both listed, I think, as the authors.* I don't know how much of it was her output and how much was his, but it was a joint effort.

Teiser: Is that a very valuable book, do you think, to a bookbinder?

Olmsted: Yes.

Teiser: Has much been written of that kind?

Olmsted: A number of other books have been written about finishing, but never one quite as detailed or limited to finishing. Most binders have a two-volume work by Edith Diehl, a bookbinder in New York. It has a chapter or two on finishing. Belle McMurtry Young did a typewritten manuscript which was reproduced-Xeroxed or something like that--she included a chapter on finishing. It was never published.

Teiser: Is it a valuable enough book to be published?

Olmsted: I think so. I wonder how you would go about it. I have discovered in reading books on bookbinding that no book so far has told me exactly step-by-step what I must do, and I'm not sure that hers does either. I always intended to write that out for myself as I was :. binding a book under Peter's direction, but I never got around to it unfortunately.

Teiser: You could probably do it now.

Olmsted: I don't know. It's easy enough to forget just exactly what you do, the little things that you do.

Teiser: The Faheys did a few bindings, but not terribly many. Is that correct?

Olmsted: I don't know how many they did. I have [pauses to count] four bindings that they did. They did a number of bindings for Morgan Gunst. They did one for Florence Walter, and at least one for Albert Bender. The binding that they did for Albert Bender is in the Mills College Library. Morgan Gunst's are, of course, at. Stanford. I think there are several others at Stanford. It seems to me that Albert Bender

*These words appear on the title page, "Written, printed and published by Herbert and Peter Fahey. San Francisco, California. 1951." Olmsted: bought another binding that they did which is also at Stanford. They sold one of their. bindings after an exposition, I believe, to the Spencer Collection at the New York Public Library.

There are a few others because I ran across one in a catalogue several years ago which I wanted to buy but it had already been sold to a collector in Los Angeles.

We had an exhibition at USF [University of San Francisco] at GleesonLibrary* and,oh, we must have had twenty or twenty-four bindings of the Faheys.

Teiser: I somehow had got the idea recently that they did very few bindings.

Olmsted: They didn't do as many as I would have liked. I brought a book back from New York just after the war and gave it to them to bind for me. At Peter's death, twenty-five years later, it was not finished! [laughter]

Teiser: Isn't that about standard for bookbinders?

Olmsted: Well, not quite! Some binders take longer than others. I had very good experiences with most of the people I cormnissioned bindings from --within a year or a little over a year, but not much longer. But this particular binding was one that I remember. Of course, I was disappointed that they hadn't finished it before Herbert died because I particularly wanted him to do the finishing. I suggested that if she would complete the forwarding, that I would do the finishing. Oh, no, she wouldn't hear of that! I didn't know whowas going to finish it, probably either Eleanor Hesthal or another student, Sheila Casey, who did do some binding under her direction, commissioned binding.

When peter died, I found the book and it had already been sewn and cased. The fore edge and the bottom edge had been rough gilt before sewing. The gold top had not been placed on it, so I sent it to New York to have a gold top put on. Then I covered. it and putmy own design on it. I haven't the slightest idea what her design would have been, but probably a much more effective design than mine because I am not what I call a creative designer. I don't have any ability in that line. I copy; that is, I adapt the illustration or something in the book, but it's not an original design by any means. The book was the Song of Roland designed by Bruce Rogers at the Riverside Press at Cambridge. The illustrations

*In April and May, 1975. Olmsted: were adapted from the Charlemagne window at the cathedral of Chartres. Since the illustrations were from the stained glass window, I tried to give that effect by placing a large cross made of different colored onlays and adding radiating gold lines. .

Reminiscences of Various Blnders

Teiser: There are some people who would rather have a book designed in that close reference to its illustrations and content than something more creative by the binder.

Olmsted: Of course. When I codssioned bindings I always left it entirely up to the binder what he was going to put on. Helen Louise Boettger bound two books for me and each time she submitted several designs. I would rather she had not because I wanted the binding to be hers, not mine. As long as she gave me several choices, I chose one, but I don't know if it necessarily would have been her choice. But at least they were her designs.

I took my first book to Miss Boettger during the war. I was stationed at Fort Knox and I took a leave and went to New York for several weeks and I called on her in Hackensack, New Jersey. I had taken with me a little Book of Ruth, the one that the Grabhorn Press did for The Book Club, and asked her to bind it for me. She was flabbergasted! She said, "I can't do anything that small." She was used to doing big books because that is the French tradition. You had to have something to work with, something to work on, a surface to put your design on. But she did it and then when she finished the book she sent it to me, with a note, "I would like you to keep this with my compliments."

I went to Herbert and told him, "I agreed to pay for the binding when I asked her to do it for me. What should I do with this?" He said, "Accept it and send her another book to bind!" [laughter] So I sent her the large Alice in Wonderland. You may have recalled seeing it in the exhibit at Bancroft." It's a book longer than it is tall and it has this sweeping design across both covers with a Mad Hatter and the cat with the whiskers and all sorts of things-- the croquet ball and the wickets and things like that--that you find in Alice in Wonderland. It was the second of two designs she had sent me.

*"Modern Hand Bookbinding;" an exhibition by the Friends of The Bancroft Library, September 7-November 20, 1980. Olmsted: The first design was similar, using many of the same symbols: croquet game, crown, gallows, et cetera. She quoted the first design at $275, the second at $325. I picked the second design because I liked the way it swept across both covers. "The long curves, connecting the recto and verso," she wrote, "are the dream waves (like thought waves) ....Throughout the story, numerous instances occur of crossing back and forth over the thin line between reality and the dream."

Peter Fahey thought that the design was fine to illustrate the book but she said, "It has nothing to do with the illustrations in the book. " The illustrations are by Marie Laurencin and are portraits of various characters in Alice in Wonderland.. tll Teiser: It had to do with the subject matter, but not the illustrations.

Olmsted: Yes, not the illustrations. It could go on any edition of Alice. I don't know how you could tie in both illustration and subject matter in a book like that.

Peter did not always live up to her own guidelines. Take the King Lear for instance. The binding was commissioned by Albert Bender, and is now in the Mills College Library. It is my favorite of.all the Fahey bindings. Here is the description Peter wrote to accompany the photograph of the binding in Finishing in Hand Book- binding:

"The blue Levant bound King Lear denotes royalty, while the lines and dots represent opposing forces depicted in the story. The somber blue leather expresses the atmosphere of the story and something of the regal spirit of the king, while the soft rose lining suggests the beauty of the court costumes."

Such a design could be put on any edition of King Lear. It has nothing to do with the illustrations, which are by Yunge.* Of course, they are not very good, and perhaps that is the reason Peter stayed away from them. David Magee, who published the book, did not care for them, and neither did G.K. Chesterton, who wrote the /ntroduction.

Philip-Smith, when he accepted a book for binding said, "I want a book without any illustrations because I don't want to be tied down by the illustrator." I sent him--in fact, he had asked for--one of two books of T.S. ~liot's,Four Quartets and The Wasteland, printed by Mardersteig$*theOfficina Bodoni in Verona, Italy. We had been looking at a catalogue in which the two books had been depicted and we knew that there were no illustrations. I said I would try to get

* John Yunge-Bateman **Giovanni Mardersteig Olmsted: one or the other. It took me a little while but I finally got the copy of The Wasteland. If you remember that binding at Bancroft, it very much is typical of the idea of The Wasteland. It looked almost like a moonscape. I

Philip was a painter first before he went into bookbinding, and I think many of his bindings show his painting background. They are almost paintings in leather.

Teiser: You were speaking of Eleanor Hesthal. Did she do only finishing or was she a binder?

Olmsted: Oh, no, she did all of the steps in binding.

Teiser: Was she a good binder?

Olmsted: Yes, she was a very good binder. We had an exhibit at Museum West in Ghirardelli Square a number of years ago* and she had a binding there that I wanted. I tried to get her to sell it to me but she wouldn't sell it. It was the French edition of Oscar Wilde's Salom'e with illustrations by Andre Derain, published by The Limited Editions Club. "I have a copy of the book and if I bring it to you, will you bind it for me?".I asked. She said she would. Unfortunately, she died before she finished it, so I finished it! At the studio was the original design for the book that she had done, and I used it. The only difference was that she had bound the book in natural leather with very free-form onlays of black. I did it in black with my free-form onlays in the natural leather. I just reversed it, but it is exactly the same pattern.

Teiser: I copied down the people who exhibited at Museum West. Donald Brown do you recall?

Olmsted: Donald Brown, yes. He's still here in San Francisco and he's not doing any binding now that I know of. He does some designing for other binders. He makes boxes for other binders. I don't know what else he's doing. He worked for the city in the planning department and became ill and had to take a disability retirement. Of course, by the conditions of that retirement he cannot work full time. He can do only a little bit on the side to bring in a little extra income. He's not doing any binding at all that I know of. He is a calligrapher, too. He studied at the Frank Lloyd Wright School back in New Mexico or Arizona, I've forgotten where; not with Frank Lloyd Wright (he had already died) but with his successors. Teiser: There was a man named Anson Herrick who had quite a few books in that exhibit.

Olmsted: Yes, he belonged to the Bohemian Club and.he used to exhibit at the Bohemian Club when they had their exhibits there. Also William French, too-was French there?

Teiser: No.

Olmsted: They were two members of the Bohemian Club who were bookbinders. They used to exhibit whenever the Bohemian Club had an exhibit by the artist members. Both are dead.

Teiser: Margaret Lecky of Los Angeles-

Olmsted: She has done several bindings for me and still has a binding. She teaches at the extension division at UCLA. She was a student of Gerlach in New York originally.

Teiser: You exhibited in Museum West, and Julia Patton of La Jolla.

Olmsted: Yes, she was a great friend of Peggy Lecky and that's about all I know about her.

Teiser: ' Stella Patri was in it. Carol Reis?

Olmsted: Carol Reis? Yes, she has since married and as far as I know is not doing any binding. She works for one of the banks or something here in San Francisco.

Teiser: Lois Stopple?

Olmsted: Lois Stopple is still living. She was a student of Peter's.

Teiser: At the fair at Treasure Island, among the people who were thanked for help with the exhibition of bookbinding were Peter Fahey, Mrs. Young, and Mrs. Walter. You must have known Mrs. Walter and her work pretty well.

Olmsted: Oh, yes, I was in her studio a number of times and I also commissioned a binding from her.

Teiser: Can you describe her studio? It was so striking.

Olmsted: Yes, it was a striking studio. Of course, she built that house I think around the studio! [laughter] I can't say anything more except that it was certainly well equipped. It had everything that you needed, all the work space that you needed, ,all the cabinets and everything, and plenty of light. It was almost in the patio. I think there were windows on two sides. I don't know what else to say about it. Teiser: How.would you characterize her binding, say, compared to, on the one hand, Peter Fahey's and on the other hand, Mrs. Young's.

Olmsted: In the first place, perhaps I should say that I came to know Mrs. Young at the end of her career and also Mrs. Walter at the end of her career, so that neither of them were doing the binding at the time I conmissioned bindings from them that they had done earlier. Mrs. Young's gold work was impeccable, every bit as good as Herbert Fahey's. Mrs. Walter's early work-some of her early work-was just as fine. They were all, I think, extraordinary binders, so that it's difficult for me to say. It was natural, I would assume, that as they grew older, their hands were not as steady, that the lines were not as straight and things like that. They probably both bound too long. I know I a.lways said that I was going to quit when I was seventy and here I'm five years beyond that [laughs] and I'm still binding! But I don't think I'm doing as good work now as I did earlier.

Teiser: What about their general styles of binding compared-

Olmsted: Belle McMurtry Young was in the old tradition, although she did develop to the point where some of her bindings were illustrative of the text. Many of her designs could be put on any book.

'Teiser: When you speak of the old tradition, would you say that was more of a British tradition than French?

Olmsted: No, I think it was French because they studied in Paris. Now, here are some of Belle's bindings.

Teiser: I see, on the shelf here.

Olmsted: This design on a Kelmscott Press book, for instance, except for the title, could be put on any book. That is true of the early French. You may recall those that Mrs. Heller owns that were on exhibit at Bancroft, the Bonets particularly. They were never illustrative of the text. Any binding could be put on any book. It could be reversed and that was the old style of binding.

Teiser: Mrs. Walter, however--

Olmsted: Mrs. Walter did bindings that were more illustrative of the text, although the one she did for me was a book of poems by Paul Verlaine which would be very difficult to interpret textwise. She picked up things from the printing of the book or from the illustrations rather than from the text for her design, which probably is the only thing she could do. Olmsted: She did some bindings in the early French style, too--magnificent things. One of the things she did--one of her daughters owns it now--was The Limited Editions Club edition of U'lysses, which was a magnificent binding technically.

Teiser: An imaginative design, was it?

Olmsted: No, I don't think so as I recall now. Again, it was a design that could be put on any book.

Teiser: I suppose you didn't know Mrs. A.B.C. Dohrmann.

Olmsted: Very casually. I have one of her bindings. She was one of Belle McMurtry Young's pupils, and very early in my binding career there was a man by the name of Lawrence, whose last name was Lawrence (I can't remember his first name)* who had a book shop out beyond the Twin Peaks Tunnel. He had-an exhibit of local binders at his shop. At that time, Mrs. Dohrmann was still binding, and I met her at the shop and saw some of her bindings. But I bought the binding from David Magee after her death when some of her library was being disposed of. It was the binding on The Limited Editions Club ~utbbio~ra~h~of Benjamin ~rankiinthat John Henry Nash printed. The binding was typical of the printing, the borders. I can't remember her other bindings enough to tell you what kind of a binder she was other than that.

Teiser: Jane Grabhorn exhibited in the 1939 exhibition.

Olmsted: She went to Paris and studied for a little while, but I think she studied first with Belle. They were great friends, the Grabhorns and Belle McMurtry Young. In fact, after Belle disposed of her bindery, she went to live at a hotel on Sutter Street, I believe it was the Commodore. She had still in her library, or in her bindery, a number of Grabhorn books that had been given her in sheets. Among others, there was the Caxton leaf book**thattheGrabhorns did for The Book Club, but without the leaves. There were three copies, which Belle gave to Peter Fahey, who in turn gave two of them to me. I went to England and bought a Caxton leaf for one of them, .and I always intended to do something with the other copy, but I didn't.

*T & J Lawrence, who had a book shop at 123 West Portal Avenue, had an exhibit in 1948 that included bindings by Jane Grabhorn, Duncan Olmsted, Lewis and Dorothy Allen, Robert Bruckman, Byron E. Watters, Ralph Enges, Haakon Jenssen, Eleanor Hesthal, and Mrs. John I.Walter. This information is given in a clipping that Mr. Olmsted found,in his files after the interview. **An Original Leaf from the Polycronicon, 1938 Olmsted: Belle had the sheets of the little Book of Ruth, which the Grabhorns had printed on vellum. According to the colophon there are only three copies on vellum. She had everything except the colophon and when she bound the book it made four copies. David Magee once boasted that he had all four of them in his shop at one time or another. The one that Belle bound now belongs to Bill Barlow.

Teiser: Jane Neylan was listed in the 1939 exhibition catalogue. Did she do much binding?

Olmsted : I didn't know that she did any binding. She may have taken it up, but I don't know. You know who she was? She was John Francis Neylan's daughter.

Teiser: Rose Adler?

Olmsted : Rose Adler was a French binder. I wonder how she happened to be on the committee. Perhaps she came out with the French bindings and helped arrange the exhibit.

Teiser : RudolphSchaefferis listed here.. Did he himself do any bookbinding?

Olmsted: ~otthat I know of, but the Faheys were very friendly with Rudolph Schaeffer. In fact Peter, I believe, studied some art with Rudolph Schaeffer.

Teiser: I have seen displayed somewhere the demonstration set that shows the steps in binding a book, and which was created for the fair.

Olmsted: Yes,it now belongs to USF.* After Mrs. Fahey died, the bindery was bought by Gale Herrick and the books were bought by John Windle. But all the bindings, as well as the equipment, were considered part of the bindery so that Gale Herrick got everything, and he presented the set to USF.

Teiser: Peter Docili--

Olmsted: Peter Docili is the one who runs the Rudolph Schaeffer School at the present time and was also a very great friend of the Faheys. In fact, he used to come down from the Rudolph Schaeffer School and help Peter when she was binding that big Kelmscott Chaucer which she did for J.D. Zellerbach. It was so big she couldn't handle it. Someone had to hold it for her. So he used to come down and do that either at noontime or just after he was through work in the afternoon.

In the design of the Chaucer Peter did follow her guidelines, although a simple description of the design might lead one to believe it could be placed on any edition. of Chaucer. The name "Chaucer" is lettered on the front cover,'the initial "C" being onlaid in orange

* The University of San Francisco. It is in the Richard A. Gleeson Library's Special Collections. Olmsted: leather. But after reading the description in Finishing in Hand Bookbinding, one realizes that this design could be placed appropri- ately only on the Kelmscott Chaucer:

"The lettering 'Chaucer' was made of straight and curved line tools to simulate the lettering in the book and of Chaucer's time. The 'C' was onlaid in orange leather and defined in gold on the brown Levant cover. The orange 'C' echoes the second color of the printed book. The scroll artwork in the book was also emulated on the cover design with gouges and ornamental tools. "

Teiser: Where is that volume now?

Olmsted: Mrs. Zellerbach still has it.

Walter Harada did some of the designs for the Faheys for some of their bindings, and also worked on the-demonstration set.

-~bllectorsand Bookbinders

Teiser: Morgan Gunst wrote the introduction for the fair catalogue, -and that brings us to Morgan Gunst. He was a collector only, not a binder?

Olmsted: As far as I know. He was a man of great wealth who retired early. At one time he was a vice-president of the Bank of America in charge of their real estate operation. The Elkan Gunst Building, which is on the corner of Powell and Geary right across from the St. Francis, was owned by Morgan Gunst at the time I knew him. I believe Elkan was his mother's maiden name. He was a great collector and he commissioned bindings from local binders, but most of his collecting was done in Paris. He used to go over to Paris, I think, every year, at a certain time of the year when they would have their new books on display and buy if he hadn't already commissioned something when he was over there the year before.

Teiser: What kind of tastes did he have in bookbindings? Did he have any definite tastes or was he eclectic?

Olmsted: I think he was eclectic. He bought a number of the French illustrated books, the artist books. What do they call them?

Teiser: Editions de luxe? Olmsted: Well, that's what they were, of course, but they were done by the great artists--Picasso and Matisse and all of them-so that the books themselves were very expensive. I never heard him say whether he asked a binder to do a binding in any certain way or whether he left it entirely up to the binder. But I would imagine that with those French binders, you gave them the book and they did the binding and that was all there was to it.

Incidentally, most of the French binders did not do the binding themselves. They were simply the designers. Have you seen the catalogue for an exhibit that was done at Stanford University of bindings from the Morgan Gunst collection called "Les Architectes du Livre?" Just as the architect draws the design for a house but does not build it, so most of these binders drew the design for the bindings but did not bind them. \ Teiser: Of those that Gunst commissioned here, do you know anything of them?

Olmsted: As far as I know, they are all at Stanford.

Teiser: Did you know many of the people who did them?

Olmsted: Oh, there is a Fahey binding, there is a Belle McMurtry Young binding. I don't know whether there is a Florence Walter binding or not.

. . Teiser: Do you think he gave them the same leeway he would have had to give the French?

Olmsted: Oh, I'm sure he did.

Teiser: I remember a story that Warren Howell told about being given white gloves to wear in Morggn Gunst's library."

Olmsted: Yes, Morgan Gunst invited The Roxburghe Club members to come to his house and see his bindings and he gave each of them a pair of white gloves to put on and I don't blame him. [laughs] Especially if they had just come from dinner!

Teiser: Has Warren commissioned bookbindings here?

Olmsted: He does for Paul Getty-one of the Getty brothers who is in London or was living in London. (I don't know whether he is still living there.) He has commissioned a number of bindings from local binders.

*See interview with Warren R. Howell, Two San Francisco Bookmen, Regional Oral History Office, The Bancrof t Library, university. of California, Berkeley, 1967, p. 55. Olmsted: Then he puts on the exhibit of work done by the Hand Bookbinders of California every November, always hoping that there will be a few bindings that he can buy, and I think he buys them with the idea that he's going to send them to Getty.

Teiser: That's right; he does give window space every year.

Olmsted: Yes, we are very fortunate.

Of course, up until a few years ago.it was cheaper to send books to England to be bound than to have them done locally.

Teiser: Isn't it now?

Olmsted: Possibly; I don't know.

Teiser: Isn't it cheaper to have them done in France, too?

Olmsted: I don't know. On all the bindings that I have commissioned, whether it was in France or in England or in Germany or here in the United States, the price has been the same.

Teiser: Is that right?

Olmsted: Yes, with the exception of Philip Smith's bindings.

Teiser: Are his more than anyone else's?

Olmsted: Yes. Although his original price on the binding he did for me was still more than anyone else, when he finished it he said that he had spent so much more time that he thought it was worth more. I said I was willing to pay him more, but I wasn't willing to pay the . full amount, so we split the difference. lili Teiser: Is there a price range at all?

Olmsted: The only thing that I had to go by when I was commissioning bindings was what Peter Fahey told me they should bring. Also, I know that when I went to see Mrs. Young, who I guess was the first one I commissioned for binding books, she said she did nothing for less than $300.

Teiser: That was in the forties.

Olmsted: In those days, as far as I could tell, that was the going price-- and that's all she charged me for a binding.

Teiser: Any book? Olmsted: It would depend upon the size of the book, naturally, how much more work would have to be done. In the forwarding, it takes just as long to bind a little book--and maybe a little longer because it's difficult to handle--as a big book.. The materials that go into- a big book would be more expensive, but up until recently I don't think they would run more than $50 a book. You could buy a skin for less than $25 and only use part of it and then the cost of the rest of the materials is very small--the paper that you use in the end leaves and the glue and the cardboard (the boards that you use for the covers). It really is not very expensive from the material standpoint. It's.the labor that goes into it; the time. You could tell pretty much--should be able to tell--from the design that you're going to put on it how many hours it is going to take you to do it and judge accordingly.

But I had the idea when I talked to Philip Smith that he at that time had no preconceived notion of the design that he was going to put on. Consequently, he didn't know how much to charge. He had one of these very elaborate inlays of what he calls l'Mari1"--he takes the scraps of leather, cuts them into minute pieces, mixes them with paste or glue and presses them into a firm roll--like a cookie roll -then slices them and inlays them in his bindings. It's a technique that he has copyrighted or patented.

Teiser: The book that you said Mrs. Young priced at $300, what would you think that same kind of binding would cost today?

Olmsted: It was an Ashendene, so I probably paid around $75 to.$100 for the book originally. Ashendenes today, I guess, are running $500 and up. Well, I should think she would have charged at today's prices and today 's inflation.at least $1,000 and maybe $1,500.

. Teiser: I don't know if you still have that book--

Olmsted: Oh, yes.

Teiser: If you were to sell it today complete, what would it fetch do you think?

Olmsted: I haven't any idea because bindings are peculiar. I don't think that there is as large a market for a binding as there is for fine printed books. How many collectors would want that book as a binding and how many would want it just because it's an Ashendene I don't know, nor whether or not Belle McMurtry Young is well enough known. Certainly in San Francisco, but there aren't very many collectors in San Francisco.

I think you heard Gale Herrick say at Bancroft*that the five collectors who were showing there are the only collectors that we know of, serious collectors: Mrs. Heller, who is not collecting

* Stephen Gale Herrick spoke at the opening of the hand bookbinding exhibit of 1980. See page 85. Olmsted: now; Ed Mayall, who ks dead; Gale Herrick, who is still collecting; Norman Strouse, who is still collecting; and myself. And I am not collecting any more. When I sold the business and retired, I discovered that retirement income didn't give me the extra money that I needed for things like bindings, so I'm not collecting any more.

I still have two bindings out on commission. Perhaps I should say only one. I won't mention the binder, but there is a binder who accepted a book from me in 1966. 1 was back in England in 1969 and I saw the binding. All the forwarding had bee* done. The book had been covered. The design had.been drawn, but he hadn't quite decided whether the design should go on the book or not,orif he would have another one. But the binder had become involved in the restoration work at Florence. He had gone to Florence and then had returned, and while he was in England at the time, he still was working on books they were sending to him.

Teiser: This was after the flood?

Olmsted: Yes, after the flood. He hadn't done anything about the binding. He has been toobusy. He has practically stopped binding. He is doing nothing but restoration now. I tried my best to get him to finish the binding, and I suggested that he turn it over to somebody else. I have had no reply from him at all. I finally wrote to him and said, "I realize that you no longer can afford to bind the book at the price you quoted me back in '69"--which I think was at the most $450-"and I can't afford today's prices, so I will relieve you of all further responsibility of binding the book. If you ever finish it you can either sell it to another collector or you can present it to a library." But I don't expect to get it back again.

Now, it was true that I had taken the book to England to give to him. But it was a book that had been given to me so that 1 was not out any money. It was a Grabhorn; one of the Shakespeare plays which Ed Grabhorn had given me in sheets. I had gone in to see if I could buy it. I wanted to take it to England and he just gave it to me. So that binding I'd say I no longer expect to see.

Now, I' have another binding out. The binder is understandably busy and she will finish the binding for me. I said to her not too long ago, "I can't afford today's prices." She said, "I will bind this for you at the price originally set when you gave me the book.''

Teiser: You were speaking of restoration. Is there anyone here besides Stella Patri who specializes in restoration?

Olmsted: Many of the binders will also do restoration, those who accept commissions--the Kahles, for instance. I think he does nothing but restoration. She does the binding. Robert Lucas also does Olmsted: restoration. I don't know whether people like Betty Lou Beck [Chaika], Lage Carlson, Donald Glaister, and Barbara Hiller do restoration or not. But they are capable of doing it.

Teiser: I know libraries have a great need for restoration, but who else?

Olmsted: Of course, collectors who collect incunabula and things like that. Such books should not be rebound, but they sometimes can be restored so that they are still in good condition without destroying part of their value as an old book.

Teiser: That's a very specialized and interesting craft I should think.

Olmsted: Yes. You have to be a binder first to go into restoration, because you have to know how a book is constructed'in order to be able to restore it.

Teiser: Did you ever know Hazel Dreis?

Olmsted: I did not know Hazel Dreis. I knew her only by reputation. She bound the big Grabhorn Press Leaves of Grass. One of her students was Maggie Harrison of Sacramento. Do you know Mike Harrison?

Teiser: I know who he is.

Olmsted: He has a.marvelous collection of Western Americana there at Fair Oaks on the banks of the American River. Maggie, his wife, was a binder. She died recently. She thought that binding rose and set in Hazel Dreis. Some of the local binders didn't think she was so good.

Teiser: Yes, apparently Mrs. Harrison was the only one who really was a strong adherent. Of course, Ed Grabhorn got mad at her and probably influenced some people, but still--

Olmsted: Yes, because she didn't finish the job of the Leaves of Grass. William Wheeler was working with her at the time, and he finished it. He did a lot of binding for Grabhorn.*

Teiser: Was her bookbinding of an entirely different discipline?

*Michael Harrison. See Appendix B. **See interviewwith Edwin Grabhorn, Recollections of the Grabhorn

-9 Press Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley, 1968. Olmsted : I've never seen a Hazel Dreis binding so I don't know. Now, that's a mistake because I should have. I'm sure that Maggie Harrison must have had a binding or two of hers, and I should have looked at them.

Teiser: Then you mentioned Sheila Casey.

Olmsted : Sheila Casey was a student of Peter Fahey and was working with Peter at the time of Peter's death. Peter always intended that she should carry on the studio, but Sheila was not quite sure that she wanted to bind, and she would bind for a while and then she would go off to the University of California at Davis to complete her college work. She would work for a year there and then she would come back and bind for a while, so that actually, as I recall, she was at Davis at the time Peter died. Now, she has returned to do some binding but just more as a hobby than anything else. She is working with Barbara Hiller now. She is a trained entomologist. I think she is working as a lab scientist at U.C. Hospital, or was the last I heard.

Teiser: Back to the economics of bookbinding--we're talked about the price of bookbindings, but Peter Fahey could hardly have managed if her husband hadn't had a job, could she?

Olmsted : When they came back from Europe they set up their bindery with the idea that they were going to spend full time binding and discovered they could not make a living at it. So that's when Herbert went back to printing.

Olmsted : Of course, Peter was doing it as a teacher rather than as a binder because I don't think there are enough people interested in fine bindings to buy them to keep a binder going full time. She accepted what commissions came her way.

Teiser : Still, there are so many young people interested in it. How do they manage to--

Olmsted : I'm not sure that any of them are making a living from binding. They have other interests of some kind. Now, Donald Glaister, I believe, is doing full-time binding and some teaching. Lage Carlson was working as the binder for Andrew.Hoyem. I don't know whether he is able to make a living as a binder today or not because I don't know what else he is doing, if anything. Betty Lou Beck [Chaika] is teaching over at Mills, although only part time. Of course, she is married and has a husband who is able to do "sub- support," I guess. I don't know whether Stella Patri is able to make a living with her restoration or whethr it is just supplement- ing her income. Teiser:, I think from what she told us she has a little income and she works on a regular basis for the university medical school.

Olmsted : Yes, but I don't think that they pay her 'enough for her to live on if she didn't have some private income.

Teiser: It% interesting that the people earlier seem to have done bookbinding as a hobby, but the younger people seem to wish they could do it as a vocation instead of as an avocation.

Olmsted: Yes, that's true.

Teiser: Why do you think that is?

Olmsted: I can't blame them for wanting to do that kind of work if they feel their talents have destined them for that.

Teiser: I just wonder why bookbinding-fine binding--of all things has caught their imagination.

Olmsted: I don't know. Why do I collect binding instead of fine prints or something like that? [laughter] At the time I started collecting bindings, I could have bought prints by Picasso or any of the contemporary French artists for the same prices that 1 have paid for bindings .

Transcriber: Michelle Stafford Final Typist: Marie Herold TAPE GUIDE'- Duncan Olmsted

Date of Interview: September 23, 1980 tape 1, side A tape 1, side B tape 2, side A [side B not recorded]

STEPHEN GALE HERRICK Regional Oral History Office Room 486 Library The Bancrof t Library University of California Berkeley, California 94720

Hand Bookbinders of San Francisco Interviewee

Your full name Stephen Gale Herrick

Date of birth January 20. 1909 P~FPnf b;~rth San Francisco

fullname Stephen Scholles Herrick

Father's place of birth New Orleans, Louisiana

Mother's full m Mabel Gale

Mother r place of birth Sacramento, California

Where did you grow up? San Francisco

Education UC Berkeley, B .S. Civil Engineering, 1931 INTERVIEW HISTORY

Stephen Gale Herrick was born in San Francisco in 1909 and educated in schools there and, after his family moved to Berkeley in 1918, in the East Bay. After graduating from Oakland Technical High School, he entered the University of California and in 1931 was awarded a B.S. degree in civil engineering.

Beginning in 1922, Mr. Herrick worked during vacations and after school at the Herrick Iron Works in West Oakland, which his father had established the year before. Late in 1931 he became a regular employee, working at one time or another as an iron worker, a blueprint operator, a draftsman, and finally as general manager. Following hes father's death in 1947 he became president of the growlng firm, which in 1952 moved to a larger plant in Ffayward.

In 1960, as he recounts in his interview, Mr. Herrick sold the company and retired, although he continues to manage an investment company. In 1968 he began studying bookbinding with Peter Fahey, an actzvity which has become a central interest and has brou&t him into participation in organizations relating to hand binding and books in general. His enthusiasm, organizing ability, business experience, and willingness to make efforts on all levels have contributed to the advancement of these organizations. He was a founding member and first president of The Hand Bookbinders of California and the key factor in its 1978 exhibition, "Hand Bookbinding Today, an International Art."

Among other organizations in which Mr. Herrick has been an officer or board member are the C-uild of Book Workers (New York) , The Book Club of - California, The Friends of The Bancroft Library, the Associates of the Stanford University Libraries and the Gleeson Library Associates of the University of San Francisco, of which he is a fellow. He is an associate member of the English organization, Designer Bookbinders.

The interview was held in two sessions,-the first in Mr. Herrick's office, where he has his bookbinding studio, the second in.the library of his Pacific Heights apartment. Reviewing his transcript, Mr. Herrick made minor additions but no major changes.

Studying with Peter Fahey and Barbara Hiller [Interview 1: December 5, 1980]/!/!

Teiser: What was your first realization that there was such a thing as bookbinding?

Herrick: My first realization must have been during the sixties, when I became so intensely interested in bookbinding and also in book collecting. I tried to think what was the earliest sign of my interest. I recollected that when I was in high school, I was enamored of a woman who wrote poems. I typed some of her poems on very fine paper, handmade paper, and bomd a book. That was in 1928.

Teiser: How did you bind it? Do you remember at all?

Herrick: I don"t remember anything about it!

Then also, thinking about book collecting, when I had finished my freshman year in the university, that was in 1929, I took passage on a battleship to New York. I was in the Naval Reserve. I strolled up and down Fifth Avenue and in a window I saw the first edition of The Bridge of San Luis Rey, and that was my first book'purchase. But then from that to bookbinding and book collecting--I skipped

Almost exactly this time of the year 1967, I was playing dominoes with a man I had known quite some time. We normally played with a larger group, but on this particular day, only Mr. Will French appeared. So we were playing two-handed dominoes. For want of conversation, I asked Will French how his bookbinding was going, because I knew chat was one of his hobbies. He said that due to

/!/!This symbol indicates that a tape or a segment of a tape has begun or ended. For a guide to the tapes see page 146. Herrick: his failing eyesight, he then being over ninety, he wasn't able to pursue the hobby. So I asked him what he was doing with his studio, not knowing that I was very rapidly being hooked. He said that he had made an attempt about six months earlier to sell his studio and its contents. Selling the studio means selling the equipment and the supplies. He had failed.

So I said, "What are you asking for it?" I've forgotten what it was, but we finally concluded that for the price of ten dollars I would have a six-month option on his studio for $1,500! So being a very conservative businessman, I spent that six months looking into the field to see whether I was really interested or not.

Teiser: Were you then retired?

Herrick: Yes, I had retired considerably earlier. I had sold my business in 1960. I had finally moved to San Francisco, my business being in Hayward and my prior residences being in Berkeley and Oakland.

Teiser: Who was Will French?

Herrick: Will French was a man a generation older than I, and it turned out that he had known my father well. He was a man who had been in the stee1 trade.

Teiser: As you had.

Herrick: As I had and as my father had. Apparently he had retired fairly early because he was later involved in liquidating businesses. Also he was concerned in a number of hobbies such as cabinetmaking and photography and tropical fish, and one of them was binding.

Teiser: Who did he study with, or did he study with qyone?

Herrick: I don't think he studied with anyone. (I have another story of a man who didn't study with anyone, or who didn't to any extent.) My review of the field involved visiting binders both in San Francisco and elsewhere in the United States. I fortunately was traveling for some reason or other, so I took the advantage of being in New York and Chicago.

Teiser: Whom did you visit?

Herrick: I visited Carolyn Horton and Laura Young in New York, and Peggy McNee and Elizabeth kerr in Chicago. Then in San Francisco I visited Barbara Hiller and Anson Herrick, whom I had known for many years-- not well--and if he were a relation it was very distant. Anson was a few years older than I, and he had pursued bookbinding for about ten years. He was crippled with arthritis, but was able to do his Herrick: bookbinding. You may have noticed that one of his bindings was in the show at Bancroft. It was something about Kachina dolls.*

I didn't realize how deeply hooked I-was becoming and how intense, and how very complex a craft and an art bookbinding was. I also didn't realize that by becoming interested in bookbinding, I was becoming also a book collector. Both bookbinding and book collecting have become a very important part of my life.

Teiser: Do you collect bookbindings or do you collect books for other reasons ?

Herrick: Both; I collect fine print books and also bindings.

Teiser: And books about bindings?

Herrick: No, I have a collection of books about bindings because I bought Mrs. Fahey's estate. But I haven't attempted to increase the collection.

I asked Will French who I could study with. I thought I would study for a brief period to see how the craft felt. I said, "Would you teach me?" He said, "Oh, no, I couldn't do that. There is a woman on Pine Street and I don't recall her name." But he ultimately telephoned me and told me that Mrs. Fahey was considered a prime teacher, that she was on Pine Street near Kearny at the time, and that I should visit her. So some time in December 1967, I called on Peter. Her name was Edna Peter Fahey. She acted rather indifferently to my call.

There were three women working. One of them I know was Eleanor Hesthal. I've forgotten who the other two were. She said, that being December, she was going to close the studio down, and I may look around if I pleased. She didn't pay any more attention to me until I was about to leave, when she said I should sign the guest book. So I took out my pen, which was a felt tip pen, which was a rare thing in those days. Now it's very common, a felt tip pen. The broad line made by the felt tip pen fascinated her and she suddenly became more interested in me! It seems that during the Christmas season she telephoned Leah Wollenberg and said, "Guess what? A businessman called on me, and of course I'm sure he's not interested and he won't pursue binding."

But in January I returned and started studying with Peter.

Teiser: Was it fairly easy to start studying with her?

*Hodges , The Kachinas are Coming. Herrick: I guess she simply had a vacancy. She asked the questions that you might expect, what other hobbies had I had, had I ever done any art work, et cetera, et cetera, and the answer was "no" to all of these things. I had never had any hobby. The only drafting I had done was mechanical drafting in my profession; which was civil engineering. But she seemed satisfied, and I progressed to her satisfaction' and to mine in the lessons.

Teiser : When you took lessons with her, were you the sole pupil at the time that you were there?

Herrick: No, there were almost always one or two others. Peter was a superb teacher when there was one person present. She appeared less skilled or less effective when there was one other person, and when there was a third person she revealed her Irish temper almost uniformly. On one occasion I remember threatening to walk out, but I never got by with it! [laughter]

Teiser: As I remember she was physically small.

Herrick: She was physically small and she was seriously handicapped with her arthritis. On one occasion, in fact, after Anson Herrick died, his estate gave his wheelchafr to Peter. I hadn't known about it, so I was busy working in the finishing room and she camebowling up the hallway Tn the wheelchair, and I didn't know whether to laugh or not, but she intended it to be humorous because the implication was that she under no cfrcumstances would use a wheelchair! [laughter]

Teiser: Can you describe her studio? You say the finishing room--

Herrick: When I referred to the hallway and the finishing room, I was referring to her studio on Sacramento Street. The earlier studio on Pine street* was actually across the street from where the Bank of America World Center is now. So it was inevitably going to be wrecked. It had been the location of the Grabhorn Press at some time.

Teiser: It was next to that Chinese temple, wasn't it?

Herrick: Yes, it was next to a Chinese temple. On several occasions I remember looking out of the window and seeing the Chinese doing that beautiful exercise dance--prayer-that they do sometimes.

That studio, as did the one on Sacramento, served as her residence as well as her studio.

Teiser : By this time, Herbert Fahey had died, hadn't he?

Herrick: He had already died. I never met him. Previously I was so uninvolved in books, I didn't know The Book Club [of California] existed or anything of that sort, and I never met Herbert.

* The studios were at 2859 Sacramento Street and 510 Pine Street. ~eiser: Excuse me, I interrupted you. You were going to tell about the layout of the studio.

Herrick: At Pine Street the back portion consisted of two rooms, and that was the studio. Almost all of the work,was done in one room, and there was no room which could be called the finishing room there. I could see that the building was going to be demolished soon and Idreaded the day when Peter would be told that she would have to - move. Whether she simply covered up. sadness at this shock or whether it really wasn't as bad as I expected, she showed no bother about the move at all. A number of her students and friends helped her move. I had not gotten to that point of friendship with her, so I wasn't called upon. Furthermore, I think she thought I was far too dignifted for that! [laughter]

She moved to Sacramento Street near Divisadero, a far more suitable location, larger and also consisting of a very nice apartment space for herself, with a finishing room, a paper room, a room for all kinds of odds and ends, chemicals and supplies, and one large studio room; totally sati'sfactory.

The whole process of bookbinding is divided into forwarding and finishing. The forwarding is that actual physical binding, and the finishing-is. the application of decoration and lettering.

Generally, I took only one lesson a week. The lesson took all afternoon. Later on, however, I was progressing and I had the time, and I asked her if I could increase to two lessons a week, and that worked out very well. She was rather indifferent about her charge for lessons and was inclined to neglect increases in charges which were called for. I always felt it was my duty to say wasn't it about time to increase her charge, and she usually did it as a result of that.

Teiser: What sort of a teacherwas she? Of course, I suppose not many people have experience with that kind of learning.

Herrick: No, Peter's experience had been very broad in that she had studied not only in the United States, but in Germany and France and also England. She and Herbert had done a great deal of work. Herbert did all the finishing and Peter did the forwarding.

She was a teacher who was fairly disciplined in that she had learned a certain way to do things, and any variation from those ways was unthinkable. Also, lacking scientific education, she never knew why she was doing something. If you asked her, "Why do we do thus and so?," she wouldn't know. She said, "We do it, so you do it that way ." [laughter] Herrick: An exaplple was that when you put the skin on the book cover--cover the book with the morroco or levant--most people saturate that with water. She always added a little vinegar to the water, which obviously made it acidic because of the acetic acid. I said, "We're doing everything to avoid acid.'' The curing of the skins has to be non-acetic--the paper, the board-everything non-acidic--and then we add acid! I said, "Why that?" She said, "I have no idea, but we always do it that way." The reason she did it was presumably that the vinegar is an astringent that opens up the pores of the skin, but it still isn't a good practice in my opinion! [laughs]

Teiser: Did you, coming into the field with as much experience as you had, and theoretical knowledge-as you've just said-did it ever occur to you that this is a hard way to do a thing; there ought to be a better way?

Herrick: No, I had a great deal of respect for tradition. In a few instances, I have developed simple improvements in methods--very, very minor-- and I have attempted to share them with my fellow binders. What I did discover was that although San Francisco is a very important center of hand bookbinders--by "important" that means that there were ten instead of one or none in the area--they were very poorly organized. Peter begged me to make some organization. She gradually realized-that my business experience made me capable of organizing a thing. I found that that was a challenge and I did it. I organized The Hand Bookbinders of California, which is now I think nine years. old.

Teiser : Back to those minor innovations. Before we forget about them, maybe I should ask you what they are.

Herrick: One, for example, was a method of marking the skin that you put on the book so that the inside or back of the skin is more easily marked with the outline of the book. As you pare the skin, of course, the outline disappears. There was always the problem of restoring the outline, so I discovered or realized that if you simply clipped the corners--clipped the edges at each end of the line-it was very simple to put the line back in.

Teiser: Did you share that with your fellow members of the association? That was why you thought of the group, was it?

Herrick: Yes, exactly.

Teiser: What other innovatfon--

Herrick: Really, nothing. It was simply a matter of adopting one method of bookbinding, and due to my experience in binding, my relatively brief experience, and my age in which I couldn't look forward to a Herrick: great deal more experience, I have adopted only a single method of binding, doing my regular binding-with one method. For example, I avoid raised bands. I avoid vellum bindings. I simply do full leather bindings in what is called extra.binding or fine binding. Other binders, for example, are interested in vellum binding, but I see no need for that for myself.

Teiser: In avoiding raised bands, does that mean you use tape?

Herrick: I use tape, yes. I have flat spines which I consider appropriate to the kind of binding I do. I bind fine press books, particularly Allen Press books. It always seemed to me raised bands were inappropriate for Allen Press books, and I can't do gilt edges anyway. That 4s another thing that a younger binder might want to learn, to do gilt edges, which is a very difficult process. But I wouldn't bother to learn it. I disapprove of gilt edges anyway because the objective is to make them easy to dust, whereas every one of my bindings is in a protective box.

Teiser: How long then did you continue studying with peter Fahey?

Herrick: Until her death. [refers to notes] She died in August 1974.

Teiser: I should put on the tape you have very highly organized notes there in a notebook, clippings and so forth.

Herrick: [laughs] Thank you. You are familiar with them because you came and looked at my files. I have my files here, too, because we may want to refer to them.

Teiser: Good.

Herrick: After PeterIs death, I studied a year with Barbara Hiller.

Teiser: She herself had studied with Peter Fahey, hadn't she?

Herrick: Yes. I don't know how long Barbara spent in France--but she followed up her study with Peter Fahey with an extensive study in France.

Teiser: Did your studying with her change any procedure you used?

Herrick: Yes, Barbara's methods were inclined to be simpler and different from Peter's. Peter, in spite of her varied experiences on the continent, had ended up in the method of the English binders, which is in considerable contrast to the French binders.

Teiser: Mrs. Hiller was more in the French tradition? Herrick: Totally in the French, although one quirk of Peter's was that if anything were made in- the United States, it was inferior. England was of some consequence, but if it were made in France it was superb!

Teiser: Then when you switched teachers, did you switch techniques, or did you gravitate toward another. technique?

Herrick: I learned some things from Barbara that Peter had never attempted to teach me. The simplifications I learned from Barbara, I have adopted. I would remind you that Peter was strong in forwarding and weak in finishing. Barbara taught me, for example, to do lettering with a pallet, which is something that Peter never approved and never did. You fit the type into a holder and impress it in the leather; you heat it and press it in the leather.

Teiser: Mrs. Fahey didn't do it?

Herrick: No, she didn't do it. She used all hand brass letters, and I have stuck wfth Peter's method in that.

In Peter's estate, or possibly it was in Will French's estate-- I bought two complete studios. I bought Peter's and I also bought Will French's. In some cases, I don't know whether an article came from one source or the other. But I have four or five pallets.

I never use them. I'll get one. Here is a heavy one. It is so , heavy and large I can't wen put it away. You put the type in there and this holds the type.

Teiser: Really, bookbinder's tools are beautiful, aren't they?

Herrick: Oh, that's one of the characteristics of the craft. I'd like to get that on the record, too. I think that this is one of the beauties and the joys of the craft, the beauty of the tools.

Teiser: This is heavy brass.

Herrick: Yes.

Teiser: So you in effect merged two disciplines into your own.

Herrick: Two disciplines, and I'm glad I did. I didn't realize when I started studying with Peter that she was undoubtedly the finest teacher in the area. At this point, there is no question that Barbara Hiller is the finest. So it's been a privilege to study with these two people. Herrick: After a year-it wasn't a full year, but it was a substantial period--with Barbara, I left possibly because I was starting some kind of travel or something like that, and didn't return. But more recently I did a very large book and at the stage of putting the skin on the book, you almost require two-people when you are doing it. So I asked Barbara if I might come to her studio and spend an afternoon putting a skin on a book, and I did that. I would return in case there were any problems.

Teiser: Do people come to you for help?

Herrick: No, it's the other way around. A week ago Saturday, I asked one of the binders to come fn while I was putting a skin on a book, and that's the book I'm working on now.

Teiser: I didn't realize that there were two-man jobs involved.

Herrick: There are probably others that should be two-man jobs. Strength does help, and consequently women might be handicapped by not being as strong as men.

Teiser: In what function?

Herrick: In putting a book in a lying press, for example. You have to hold the book and tighten the press. Also, in several processes the press has to be tightened very tight and the strength of a man becomes - very important in that case.

Equipping a Studio

Teiser: You started fairly soon then to set up your own studio, or did you just work with Peter Fahey for a while?

Herriek: Working with a teacher as beautifully equipped as Peter was, makes it unnecessary for the beginning student to have any equipment at all. If a person is really serious, after a little bit of study, he should establish his own studio so he can work perhaps five or six days a week instead of one day or two days. I didn't set up a studio until I moved to 555 Sutter. At that time we were livfng in a relatively small house in Oakland, which had no room for a studio at all, and that was the period when I bought Will French's studio. So I rented a place next door to where The Book Club was at the time. The Book Club was 545 and I was 555 Sutter. As I do here, I combined the studio with my office, because I had no room in my home. It might be better to have it at home from my standpoint. I don't know whether it would be from my wife's standpoint or not! [laughs] Teiser: You didn't just pick up one thing at a time. You picked up a whole lot of equipment.

Herrick: Yes, I picked up a complete studio from Will French.

Teiser: Did you need to buy other things?

Herrick: I didn't need to, but I did buy some others. On one occasion my wife, Marion, and I took a trip to Japan and we visited a papermaking village, and we also visited a dealer in Japanese paper and bought a cons.iderable amount of paper, much too much! I still have a lot of it. That cabinet is full of paper, and there is another cabinet full of paper.

Teiser: This is what happens to bookbinders, doesn'tit? That they are likely to get lots of materials--

Herrick: Absolutely, absolutely. You should have seen Peter's estate. When I bought the studio contents, I thought I might spend a day packing it and moving it out. Instead I spent almost every hour of three weeks arranging it all and putting it in order and getting rid of some of it, selling it and giving it away. There were many, many duplicates, and there were many things that I didn't need. So it was quite an operation.

Teiser: So you consolidated the two at the time?

Herrick: Exactly, yes. I have a beautifully equipped studio here, with some lovely equipment.

Teiser: Then did you start working every day?

Herrick: No, I have never worked every day. The plan of combining my office, such as it is, with my studio was that I could walk back and forth and work as long as I wanted or had to in the office, and then go in and do binding. I do very little of that, so that instead my binding is done on Saturday and Sunday. I work all day Saturday and Sunday here in the studio. Sometimes I do do a little bit of work on week days. I just did a little bit today. I'm doing a little job for a friend which isn't binding. It's work for a binder, but not binding. My friend asked me to take the bindings off a set of magazines.

Teiser: So, in fact, it's still a hobby, although it seems to be more than that.

Herrick: Totally a hobby and it's totally amateur. Only on one occasion did I accept a fee for a binding and then I required my client, . if you call him that, to contributeto The Bancroft Library instead of to pay me! Teiser: So you maintain your amateur status.

Herrick: Totally.

Teiser:. What was the first book you bound?

Herrick: That is an appropriate question and I have an appropriate answer. It was my family genealogy dated 1885. It had been issued more or less commercially, probably limited to perhaps five hundred copies in library cloth. It was.coming to pieces and I rebound it with Peter's assistance. I gave it to my oldest son, so it's perpetuated in the family, not only as a genealogy, but as my earliest important binding.

Teiser: Did you have to mend the pages?

Herrick: Yes, I did have to. Mainly I had to guard the backs. A common problem in rebinding a commercially bound book is scraping off the glue on the back of the sections. As you scrape off the glue, you scrape through the pages, and you have to line the pages or cover them with Japanese tissue.

Teiser: So that was a tedious job to begin with.

Herrick: Oh, very, very! The next job I did was a hundred year old printing of Grimms' fairy tales which'had been-in my wife's family since it was published, from woman to woman in the family, and was being given to my daughter. So I bound that, too.

Teiser: What did you bind that in?

Herrick: I bound that in a beautiful green morocco and decorated it with a crown and gold stars. I think there is a Grims' story that has to do with the Virgin Mary coming down from.the sky or something. But it seemed to me that gold stars and a crown seemed appropriate to Grim.

Teiser: Was that made from ornaments that you had?

Herrick: Yes, yes.

Teiser: It was freehand?

Herrick: Yes, and it's fun to use whatever ornaments you have. At one time, after buying Peter's studio and combining it with Will French's, I had 1,250 brass hand tools. Since then I've given away many and sold some and so forth. I traded Barbara one set for the lessons, and now I've traded another set to a binder who will do a binding for me to pay off the value of the tools. Teiser: What kind of binding do you want done?

Herrick: Oh, it will be a full leather binding. She is doing one already and this will be the second one.

Teiser: So you commission bindings 'as well--this is part of your collecting then.

Herrick: I'm beginning to commission them. This is such a ridiculous situation. As I indicated when I spoke in September at Bancroft*, that with many, many people searching for things to collect, there are very few collectors of fine hand bookbindings. There are really only two now in the region, I being one (and I'm not much of a collector) and Norman Strouse. So it's a strange thing, I think.

The Hand Bookbinders of California and Its Predecessor

Teiser: I think each year, when the Hand Bookbinders have a show in Howell's window, everybody hopes that some will be bought.

Herrick: From Warren Howell's standpoint,the importance of having some for sale is merely to have an answer when people come in. If he sold everything that was offered for sale, it would not be an important trade for him at all. So he really doesn't care, except that he doesn't like people coming in the shop and saying, "Are these for sale?," and then having no answer or having a very scanty answer.

Teiser: When did that annual exhibit start?

Herrick: This was the eighth annual. It's always taken place the two or three weeks prior to Thanksgiving.

Teiser: How did it get started?

Herrick: I asked Warren Howell if he would allow us to set up our show in his windows. I have always felt that one of the important functions of The Hand Bookbinders' organization was to promote binding, to encourage prospective students and to encourage collectors and people who may codssion bindings. Of course, one way to do that is to allow the public to see that binding is not a thing of the past. The average. inexperienced, unsophisticated layman says, "Oh, they used to do binding in the sixteenth century, and no one ever does it any more," which is simply not true.

*At the opening of the exhibit, "Modern Hand Bookbinding." Herrick: In our Hand Bookbinders' organization we have had over a hundred members for about three years.

Teiser: Where do they COGfrom?

Herrick: Of the hundred, I think seventeen are out of the region, some even in England. But the others are all local except a few in Los Angeles.

Teiser: Are they all actual binders?

Herrick: They are students, they are teachers, they are binders.

Teiser: Are there collectors?

Herrick: Yes, there are. Mrs. Strouse is a member. Ed Mayall was a member, the late Ed Mayall. And we did have one or two printers. We had one or two calligraphers, but we don' t any more because now there is a calligraphers' organization and they go there.

Teiser: When you started the club, what was the formal name of it?

Herrick: The Hand Bookbinders of California. The addition of the words "of California" was deliberate because the national organization is called the Guild of Book Workers and it is located in New York. I expected, and this is what happeied, that we were more successful than they were in proportion. They have about five hundred members and charge a very much higher membership fee-triple our fee.

Teiser: What do you charge?

Herrick: [laughs] Twelve dollars and fifty cents a year!

Teiser: What year was it started?

Herrick: Probably nine years ago, this being the eighth annual show.

Teiser: How did you go about it? You got Peter Fahey to be a member since she had suggested it?

Herrick: She and I talked extensively about it and planned that we would have a meeting probably, although we hadn't set the date. At that point, Marion and I went to Europe, and when I returned I found that two days later I was to address a meeting at The Book Club that was set up by Peter and by Leah Wollenberg, I think, and that was the beginning of the organization. I had told Peter I had tried to avoid organizing it because I was somewhat cynical about it. I said, "Why don't you simply have all these women binders in for tea some day. There will only be a dozen of them." Herrick: She kept insisting that we ought to get started. When this meeting took place at The Book Club, there were more people in attendance than there were chairs and more than there was space. People were standing all around.

Teiser: About how many were there?

Herrick: Eighty-five, as I recall.

Teiser: Mrs. Wollenberg and Mrs. Fahey had just put out the call then, is that it?

Herrick: Yes, they themselves with some assistance had mailed out announcements to quite a few people. While we're on that subject, I think a very interesting feature--a very interesting related thing--is a discovery I made with the help of Warren Howell that there was an organization called the Bookbinders Guild of California at the beginning of this century. This is a copy of the catalogue of an exhibit they had in 1902. Here is a list of the charter members including Mrs. Hearst, incidentally-Phoebe Apperson Hearst-and Paul Elder, Irving Lund- borg. So that fascinates me. No one had been aware of the Book- binders Guild. It died a natural death apparently around 1930 or '31. Pursuing this in behalf of the Guild of Book Workers Journal, I investigated the family of one of the binders in the area, Octavia Holden, and found that the family knew all about her.

It turned out that the story of how Octavia Holden got into binding is sort of amusing, and it also explains why Phoebe Apperson Hearst was a member of the Bookbinders Guild of California. It seems that Mss Holden's mother was deserted by her husband. She was wheeling around her children in baby carriages in the park and made friends with Mrs. Hearst and established a long-term friendship. Mrs. Hearst became a patron of the two or three daughters and sent one to France to learn French and one to France to learn binding, and Octavia Holden was the one who was sent to France to learn binding! I think that's a charming story.

The people I was talking to, who weren't named Holden, didn't have any bindings of Octavia Holden. So I did a little investi- gating and found that the Oakland Museum had three or four bindings, that were given by some branch of the family. They weren' t really expertly bound.

Teiser: Have any others turned up since?

Herrick: No, I haven't seen or heard of them. IP Teiser: You say you now only spend weekends, but you must have, from time to time, spent a deal more than weekends on bookbinding affairs.

Herrick: No. When I took lessons, obviously it spoiled a half a day. Oh, from time to time I do a little more during the week. I'm theoret- ically retired, but I do run a corporation in this office. But it is a corporation involved in personal investing, so it doesn't take too much attention.

.. Teiser: .Back to the Hand Bookbinders, let' s just go through the history of it. The dues, for instance. . Herrick: They were set arbitrarily. I was the president of the group for several years. As we organized, the question of dues arose, and I simply arbitrarily set them at ten dollars a year and that was maintained for a long time. The first change was that they said that when a man and wife or two people at the same address joined, then the second person would pay five dollars instead of ten dollars. Subsequently, they increased the dues, only two years ago, I think, to $12.50.

Teiser: Are there many couples in it?

Herrick: The Wollenbergs are the classic case, but there are others. Mr. and Mrs. Charles Parish is another one that comes to mind.

Teiser: The husbands or wives are actively interested?

Herrick: In the case of the Wollenbergs, of course, the interest is real and active and effective. In the case of the Parishes, I think they simply happened to record the two names instead of one. I don't think Mr. Parish is interested in binding.

Teiser: You certainly have a predominance of women in this field.

Herrick: Yes.

Teiser: Why do you think that is, in spite of their physical disadvantage?

Herrick: I've never solved that. I've never arrived at a reasoning for that. It may be that such an aesthetic pursuit was twenty, thirty, forty years ago considered effeminate.

Teiser: But the bookbinders who work at it for a living, they are mostly men, aren't they?

Herrick: No.

Teiser: Oh, they' re mostly women? Herrick: Yes. However, I can give you one interesting and somewhat amusing story that relates to that. No one had ever suggested visiting the bindery of the British Library. So I generated the idea myself and invited myself to visit the British Library bindery, realizing that it must be fairly important. It turns out to be what I take to be the largest binding organization in the world. They were very gracious. In fact, they took me through, spending the whole day in the bindery. As I went through, I said, "I see nothing but men in the bindery. ~on'tyou have any women workers?" They said, "Oh, yes!" They openeda door and here were three women sewing. All they were doing was sewing books all day long! [laughter] .

Teiser: This is rebinding and repair that they do, is it?

Herrick: Yes, principally. That was a wonderful visit.

Teiser: The San Francisco group has more women than men?

Herrick: Yes, I would say -so.

Teiser: What does the organization do?

Herrick: It was set up by my suggestion without any written rules, regulations or policies. We decided not to have any regular meetings. We decided, for example, only to have a meeting when there was sense in having a meeting--someone to speak to us or some sort of studio visit. We average about six meetings a year, but they are quite irregular. We do have this annual exhibit at Howell's, but we also sponsor other exhibits.

The first exhibit we sponsored was a memorial exhibit of Florence Walter at the Legion of Honor. We got no credit for it and that annoyed me, but we did all the work. Duncan Olmsted picked up all the books from Mrs. Walter's daughters and labeled them and set up the exhibit, and took it down and delivered all the books back again to the various lenders. We got not one line of credit from the museum! [laughs ]

The other, of course, big event was our international exhibit in 1978. "Hand Bookbinding Today, an International Art, " that 's what it was called.* While we're on that subject, we are sponsoring an exhibit at Stanford exactly a year from now. It's all scheduled and financed and all set.

*See p.126 of this inte~ewand other references as indexed. Teiser: What kind will it be?

Herrick: It celebrates the seventy-fifth anniversary of the Guild of Book Workers. In other words, they have been -in existence for seventy- five years.

Teiser: What will be in it?

Herrick: It will be very similar to our international exhibit, except it will be of a more national character. There may be some European bindings and some Canadian, but mostly American, both bindings of current members and bindings of people like Belle McMurtry and Octavia Holden, both of San Francisco, past members, in other words.

Teiser: All members?

Herrick: Yes.

Teiser: The meetings of the California group-typically what are they?

Herrick: I think of the woman who founded the Eddington Bindery in Oxford- shire who was here, Lady Fermoy. They have a binding operation, and her binder was here and she was here and they spoke about the activities of their bindery which I had visited and the Wollenbergs also visited recently.

Teiser: So that's the typical sort of thing?

Herrick: Yes, that's the sort of thing.

Teiser: Do you ever get together a program among your members to discuss a particular aspect of binding?

Herrick: yes*. Annually, I think they still do it though I don' t remember having such a meeting now for a year or two. But we had an annual meeting in which we elected directors and officers, and we also had minor demonstrations of techniques. One person did knife sharpening and I spoke briefly on this method of marking the skins of the books and so forth.

'Ileiser: So you do exchange ideas and techniques?

Herrick: Oh yes, oh yes, and we try to answer questions about "Where can I obtain a tool 0r.a supply?'' I believe that some of the people band together buying things in greater lots, too.

Teiser: Buying equipment and supplies is almost always a matter of importing them, is it not? Herrick: No, there is a very good source in New York called TALAS. We all use them, but there are others, too, in the United States. Gane Brothers is a big commercial binding supply and equipment source. They probably think that amateurs and fine binders are a nuisance more than anything else. They have an office in South San Francisco.

Teiser: Do the members of the group borrow things back and forth?

Herrick: Yes. Because of the remarkable quantity of brass hand tools that I have, several binders come and borrow them. Also, we all have the problem of finding a skin of a certain color. Commonly, we decorate books with mosaics or onlays of very thin pared leather. Every binder who has been binding for any length of time has a supply of scraps of leather. So when I may not have the color I want, I go to one binder or another and find it.

Teiser: This is not the origin of Philip Smith's technique, is it?

Herrick: No, no, he does a different thing with the leather than we do. "Maril" he calls it, which is an invented word, I understand.

Teiser: Isn't it a patented process?

Herrick: Yes, it's patented but I don't see how he can possibly--I should think it wouldn't be patentable in the United States. I don't see how he could argue about any usage.

Teiser: I should think anyone with a handful of leather and a Cuisinart could duplicate it! [laughter]

Herrick: Certainly, exactly. I think--Well, I don't know. I won't comment about Philip Smith and his techniques, but I think it's ideally applied to Duncan Olmsted's binding of T.S. Eliot's The Waste Land. I think it applies perfectly to that. It was in the exhibit at Bancrof t.

Teiser: How does it apply?

Herrick: It was a view of a waste land. There was a distant horizon and it appeared to be a desert. It was onlaid.

Teiser: What other functions does the club serve then, beside these?

Herrick: Well, to answer questions for people who want to study. The most unusual case was one in which Dr. Frank Novak discovered the organization. How he did, I donrt know. He attended a meeting. After every meeting we have a short reception with white wine or cookies or something. He asked various people, "Where is the best place to study binding?" I believe he had never had anything to do Herrick: with binding at all. Presumably, Stella Patri said, "Ascona in Switzerland." So he went to Ascona for eight weeks and studied binding! [laughs ] Imagine a doctor taking eight weeks ! He's a practicing physician.

Teiser: Has he been a member of your group ever since?

Herrick: Oh yes, ever since! He gave a talk when we opened our 1978 exhibit at the museum.

Teiser: You were first president of the Hand Bookbinders. How long did you remain president, or are you still?

Herrick: One of the policies I prefer in all organizations is to avoid permanent officers or even people with permanent influence in any group. Again, we don't have any bylaws, but we have a definite practice of officers not maintaining their position more than two years, with the exception of the secretary-treasurer.

Teiser: Who is the permanent secretary-treasurer?

Herrick: For many years it was Sheila Casey. I don't know who succeeded Sheila, but Leah Wollenberg has been treasurer for a long, long time.

Teiser: Who has been the president?

Herrick: After my presidency there was a man whose name we won't mention and whose adequacy we wontt mention! [laughs] Then Nancy Zinn, who was the assistant librarian for the medical library at UC- San Francisco handled the job. I think Johanna Goldschmid was a successor to Nancy and I think next March she'll probably retire. I'm not on the board any more. I 've done my best to cast them free and let them run the thing as they should.

Bookbindings Completed

Teiser: We'd like to know more about your progress in bookbinding, if it's describable.

Herrick: Yes, it is describable. I again refer to my notebook. I keep a list of all the bindings I do, and it now totals twenty-five. That averages about two per year. A common question is how long does it take you to do one. Well, there is no answer whatever to that. If you did nothing else whatever and you worked seven days a week, you could probably finish a complex fine binding in two . months or something like that. Teiser: Do youwork on more than one book at a time?

Herrick: Yes. There is an advantage to working on more than one book at a time. I prefer it to, let's put it that.way. I don't always arrive at a point where I have chosen a second or third binding to do. There are things that have to dry, so you have to start work on a binding. Also, some of the processes, such as paring the skin, are so boring that it's a great thing to be able to move from that on to something else. One reason that I sometimes have two and sometimes one and sometimes no binding is that I had to abandon my original hope of designing bindings. One of my initial motives for pursuing binding was what I thought to be the creative side, in which I could design the binding. I did a good deal of that.

As you take lessons, your teacher influences your design, sometimes more and sometimes less. I would say that that was perhaps an element of Peter Fahey's teaching, that she had a little too much influence on design. With Barbara, my impression was that you could design a book any way you wanted. She didn't care. I think that's the .way it should be. But as I progressed, and particularly after I left first Peter and then Barbara, I found that my designs didn't please me. There was even one that I couldn't look at again after I finished it: Since then, I've stripped that one entirely and redecorated it.

At present, my bindings are almost all designed by a man named Donald Brown. Donald was a student of Peter 's , and while he was a student he became handicapped with arthritis in his hands. He was an architectural draftsman. lie had to give that up and he also gave up his binding. Peter urged me to &+ve Donald some assignment. Peter knew that I was becoming more and more bored with making boxes, protective boxes. So she said, 'Thy not let Donald make a box?'' Donald was not interested at the time. He was inclined to be shy, mainly because of his handicap I think. But gradually I've gotten him to work, and he does all my boxes.

Then when I became dissatisfied with my. designs, I suggested that he design a book, and I think he designed six or seven. His training with Frank Lloyd Wright, plus his experience with binding through instruction with Peter, make him an ideal designer for the purpose. We get along very well together and I pay him for it, of course.

He is also a calligrapher and he does the titles. See where it says The Typographical Book--that grey book there? He did that title, and the one with the two orange stripes next to the Book of Genesis, and the Book of Genesis. He did all those titles. He did the box with the orange labels on it. I keep a few books down here Herrick: because people say, 'That do they look like?" Most people don't know what fine hand bookbindin g is. That's why I have those pictures of bindings out in the secretary's office.

Teiser: You keep most of your bindings at home?

Herrick: Yes.

Teiser : Do you give any away?

Herrick: Of these twenty five bindings, the ones I have given away have gone to members of the family, such as. the Genealogy to my son and the Grimms ' fairy tales to one of ny daughters. I have given others away to very close friends or to semi-relatives. But generally I simply keep them in ny awn collection.

Teiser : Have you given any to libraries?

Herrick: No, but all libraries in the area are buzzing around, showing considerable interest! [laughs]

Teiser: Weren't you going topropose at The Friends of the Bancroft Library meeting that all binders should give books to libraries?

Herrick: I might have, but I didn't! [laughter]

Teiser: You see what good use the Bancroft makes of its holdings in find bindings.

Herrick: Yes, and I understand that they are increasing their interest. Jim Hart feels that his collection--Bancroftts collection--of fine bindings is very scanty .*

Teiser: It occurs to me really that a library or bookstore is a rather more appropriate place to show bookbindings than a museum. Does that seem so to you?

Herrick: It appears that way also to the museums! [laughter] The attitude of the art world toward binding is that it is at best a secondary craft. In other words, they would think that jewelry was far superior to binding. Traditionally, fine bindings go into the libraries and not so much even into book shops.

Teiser: It's nice to have them in a book shop.

* James D. Hart, director of The Bancroft Library. But see the Interview History. Herrick: I think it is, and the classic case is Maggs* in London. Brian Maggs is a mder of the Designer Bookbinders, and an expert binder. In his shop he always has a cabinet on the wall with fine bindings in it. I've encouraged Warren to do the same thing and I think if I keep pushing, he might do it. I think it would be well to have an exhibit--not an exhibit, but a bunch of bindings. Warren is a great supporter of the binders. There is no other comparable supporter in this city and I don't knm of any in the United States.

Teiser: Back to your binding, how many of your twenty-five are still in your hands ?

Herrick: About twenty, I guess. The idea is popular with my family. They keep saying they will never give any of my bindings away, which is of course very flattering. But they'll find they have a problem with twenty-five bindings or twenty or eighteen or whatever it is.

Teiser : Keeping them up?

Herrick: Keeping them up and making space for them.

Teiser: They could always do the book wall, like Philip Smith!

Herrick: [laughter] I'm not going to comment on book walls! But do you know that a book wall has been created in San Francisco by one of our members? Our 6'7" Lage Carlson has created a book wall and he's offering it for sale.

Teiser: What books?

Herrick: It's Robert Louis Stevenson's nursery rhymes, A-- Child's Garden of Verses illustrated by Joyce Wilson. Hers bound six of them in related bindings, and they form a book wall.

Choosing Books to Bind

Teiser: What determines your choice of books to bind?

Herrick: That's an excellent question. Realizing that it takes the better part of six months to complete a binding, T've always felt that it would be wrong to bind a book of little value or of little beauty and yet many binders, including, for example, Will French and also Anson Herrick--Will French would bind, if he liked a National Geographic edition, he would bind that. Anson Herrick would bind publications of Sunset Magazine. The Kachinas are Coming is a Sunset book. It has coated paper and in fifty years the paper

* Maggs Brothers Herrick: itself will be crumbling. So why do a binding that will last five hundred years on a book that will crumble in fifty years? That's why I believe in binding the finest books, the finest print and text.

Teiser: Do you have any interests that guide you?

Herrick: As to subject, no, none whatever. In fact, as a collector of fine print, I'm inclined not to read my collection at all. I think when you collect fine print, you are likely to disregard the subject.

Teiser: You collect 'books because you like the look of them?

Herrick: Exactly.

Teiser : What kind of books do you read for pleasure?

Herrick: I am currently reading a two-volume book by Page Smith on John Adams. It's such difficult reading that I can't read it continuously, so I read suspense novels in between!

Teiser: Do you like biographies, history?

Herrick: Yes I do, but I like all subjects. I love Proust, for example. I love Joyce.

Teiser: But you don't bind Prous t and Joyce?

Herrick : There is only one fine printing of Proust and th.atls the Limited Editions Club publication of the first volume of Proust. Similarly, there is a limited editon of Joyce which I think is an ugly book. I don't think much of the Proust either. So it has to be a fine printing. If there were a fine printing of Ulysses , I would want to bind it. tl Teis er: It used. to be said fairly frequently that in many Grabhorn Press books, for instance, a great deal of effort and beauty was lavished upon texts that were notworth it, that there was a discontinuity between the content and physical aspects of the books. And with John Henry Nash the same.

Herrick: In the case of the Grabhorns you have to realize it was not a private press. It was a business, and many of the books that they printed were codssioned books. In the case of Nash it's somewhat the same. Herrick: The model private press is the Allens', and they print what they love.* They make their own choice. If I were a private printer, I would do just as they do. As you know, the Allens have printed avant-garde French novels and they have printed the Book of Genesis, and I respect them for whatever they choose. As I say, I don't read them anyway . But in the case of Jealousy, I was so fascinated I bought a paperback copy and read it. I have since read two other novels by Alain Robbe-Grillet.

I think that when a bookseller offers fine press books, one test is what press does it come from? But if it is a text that I think is important, that adds to the attractiveness of the book. A recent discovery was a long poem by John Wilmot, the Earl of Rochester. That has been printed by several presses. I got curious about an earl writing a book, writing a poem, so I read up on the history of the author and also read the poem which is long. I've forgotten the title--[Added later: It was A Satire AgainstMankind.] But I have not bound it.

Tetser: Have you ever been tempted to rebind a really old book that you thought was beautifully done?

Herrick: No, that's a different field. I've bound an eighteenth century book for a semi-relative. I don't remember any other. That Grimms was an old book, and also the Genealogy. Maybe that experience was enough for me. [laughter] It's an added problem.

My very good friend, Dr. Meyer Friedman, bought a copy of William Harvey's De Motu Cordis, 1628, and it lacked one of the dedications. So he had a photocopy made and allowed me to tip that in. That was a minor job, but it was fun to work on a book that is probably worth $75,000.

Tieser : What did you do with it at night?

Herrick: That was all carefully planned. He keeps the book in a safe deposit box. We met in the morning and walked down to the safe deposit box! [laughter] The insurance company said they wouldn't insure it unless it was kept in a safe deposit box.

.*See interview with Lewis and Dorothy Allen, Book Printing with the Handpress, Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley, 1968. The 1978 International Exhibition [Interview 2: December 10, 19801

Teiser: The exhibition, "Hand Bookbinding Today, an International Art," was in the spring of 1978?

Herrick: Yes. I was looking at the files, and I brought them all along.

Teiser: With whom and when did the idea begin?

Herrick: The idea originated with me. I attended the meeting of the Hand Bookbinders in 1974. Without realizing what I was getting into, I proposed an international binding exhibit to be sponsored by the Hand Bookbinders .

Teiser: Why did you do that?

Herrick: Because there had been no exhibit of bindings from throughout the world in the United States for a great many years, and I thought it was consistent with the objectives of the Hand Bookbinders, namely to promote hand bookbinding and to make the public aware that binders were available both as teachers and as binders to accept commissions. I succeeded in that way, but I didn't realize how much work I was getting into. I organized a committee consisting of nine persons and they were very, very hard-working and loyal.

In February 1975; I met with.%. Henry Hopkins and the librarian, Eugenie Candau, at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art. At that time I proposed an exhibit to be scheduled in 1976, and Director Hopkins smiled and said, "Everything in 1976 has to do with the United States and nothing international can be scheduled1'--because, of course, that was the bicentennial year. So then we scheduled.it for 1977 and suddenly we discovered that the British Library and Designer Bookbinders had scheduled a binding exhibit at exactly the same month and year. So we started negotiating with them so that our exhibit possibly might be a joint exhibit and that certainly we couldn't schedule ours in the month and year that they had scheduled theirs.

We actually met with Philip Smith, who was then the president of Designer Bookbinders of England. We then had to skip to 1978. As the negotiations proceeded, it turned out that the British Library's austerity program, which was required by the various economic problems in England, resulted in their cancelling their exhibit there entirely, which in some ways was favorable because it made ours much more important to binders throughout the world. Although we had the utmost support from English binders, it was Herrick: not a joint exhibit. It was a joint exhibit sponsored by the Hand Bookbinders of California and by the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art.

We were honored to be taken into the prestigious Museum of Modern Art because art museums in general don't consider bookbinding worthy of their space.

You can't believe how long it took to plan this and how many, many, many meetings. There were thirty-three committee meetings between 1975 and the opening.

Teiser: How was the responsibility and the work divided between your people and the museum staff?

Herrick: Eugenie Candau, the museum librarian, was made the curator of the exhibit. As soon as the exhibit was accepted by the museum then she joined our committee and met with us regularly. She was of great assistance. She had studied bookbinding and I suspect that she had not had as responsible an assignment in the museum as this developed into, and consequently it added prestige for her. She was a part-time employee and probably appreciated the greater responsibility.

My committee had a great deal to do with it. It became a jury committee which did not grant prizes, but accepted or rejected bindings that were submitted. Bindings were submitted in the form of slides or design drawings. We made all our decisions based on photo graphic slides.

Teiser: Who were the nine people?

Herrick: The personnel of the committee changed somewhat from time to time. But the committee listed here in 1976 was Robert Futernick, Johanna Goldschmid, myself, Marcia Kircher, Stella Patri, Duncan Olmsted, Susan Spring Wilson, Harold Wollenberg, and Donald Glaister; added was Genie Candau. The ultimate committee was [reading from list] Herrick, Futernick, Glaister, Goldschmid, Kircher, Olmsted, Patri, Wilson, Wollenberg, and Nancy Zinn. In other words, the only addition was Zinn. In addition to all the planning and the jury work, the committee aided in setting up the bindings--

Teiser: Before you go on- to that, let me ask you a little more about the jurying if I may. Did you begin with a knowledge of how many books you wanted to show?

Herrick: No, we began with really very little accurate, sensible planning. The museum insisted that we have work that was completed during the ten years prior to opening because they said, "We are a modern . Teiser: How did you all know who the major bookbinders in the world were?

Herrick: I'm sure we overlooked some. We tried to involve the various societies, of course. We intended those.societies to hand out our applications for entry. This didn't work out too well, but we had, for example, the roster of the Designer Bookbinders of England, and that includes not only fellowship binders who are the leading twenty-odd binders of England, but it also has several hundred associates, of which I am one. We also had the roster of the Guild of Book Workers of the United States, and we used both of those lists. That included some people in Canada, for example, and other countries. Johanna Goldschmid had studied at Ascona in Switzerland, so she had quite a few friends and probably some mailing Lists as well.

I think I would like to record that we received virtually no cooperation from French binders and no entries of any consequence from French binders. The French binding society didn't even answer our letters!

Teiser: Did someone say, however, that a group of them went to look at the exhibit in Philadelphia finally?

Herrick: Yes. [Added later: It was said that they did not arrive, but according to a letter of August 11, 1981, from Polly Lada-Mocarski, they did:

"The French group, traveling by bus, did see the Exhibition in Philadelphia. However, the French Group, which had made arrangements to visit -The Grolier Club in New York City, arrived at the Club on the wrong day and after five when the Club closes! By chance, the secretary, Mrs. Goetz happened to be at the Club after five, received the French Group and was able to show them the Club in about ten minutes ! ! "1

The Guild of Book Workers were very anxious to see the exhibit. Of course, many of them came to see the opening. They were the ones responsible for having it shown in Philadelphia. They, I believe, had a bus, so many of the members who are more or less centered in New York went down to Philadelphia.

We were a little disappointed. For example, we felt that Chicago, particularly the Newberry Library, might have been interested, and Boston as a center. Texas is another center. But I felt that the exhibit didn't get the circulation that it might have had. Herrick: museum and it would not be appropriate to have anything that was not ." They also said that they were attempting to indicate the influence of binding design on artists and the influence of contemporary artists on binding design.

Teiser: Did that influence you somewhat?

Herrick: That influenced us considerably. At the conclusion of our first three meetings, which were jury meetings, we realized that because we had taken these standards so strictly, we had turned down the work of one or two very famous binders. So we had to qualify our standards somewhat in order to pull in-

Teiser: Who were they?

Herrick: Well, it's better not to say because although the designs were done within the period, we felt they showed no influence from modem, contemporary artists at all and that consequently we felt they were inappropriate. On the other hand, we realized that it was unthinkable to have an international exhibit of bindings without involving or including these very famous binders.

The committee also packed up the books. That was one of the commitments we made, that wherever the exhibit was shown it would be handled by binders who were familiar with handling books. We - intended initially to have the show tour to four different locations, but one of them was not able to get the necessary funds and cancelled out. So we ended up with three localities.

Teiser: The exhibit here was in March, April, and May 1978, and from here it went to Kansas City to the William Rockwell Nelson Gallery. Subse- quently, it was shown in Philadelphia.

Tei'ser: How did you circulate invitations?

Herrick: The books were to be in San Francisco by, I think it was, November 1, 1977. A year earlier, we wrote all the binders whose names we had. We wrote the various binding societies throughout the world. The museum had a mailing list and they could enter an announcement in various magazines and journals. So the proposal was very well circulated.

Teiser: Then who handled all the correspondence?

Herrick: It was all handled by the museum. We handled no correspondence except some concerning the committee and its work. Teiser : Let me go back again to the original acceptance of books on the basis of slides. You went on faith as to execution, in effect.

Herrick: Yes, we did and that is very clever of you to bring that up because the Guild of Book Workers, who are now assembling their seventy- fifth anniversary exhibit, initially announced--having conferred with me on several occasions -that they were going to judge the entries just as we did, based on slides. I even went to the trouble of having the slides made, when suddenly they decided that if they judged on slides, they would not be able to observe the quality of the binding. So now they have said that the books have to physically be in New York in January and February. They have chosen a very prestigious jury of established people such as Carolyn Horton. They will probably have many more entries than they can accept. So they probably have done the right thing, although I was worried about it because it's going to mean shipping the books and having them shipped back, and all the cost of doing so and things getting lost and so forth.

There are approximately six hundred Guild members. Each participant may submit three bindings. Probably not over two hundred, say, of the six hundred members will submit any books, but if all two hundred submitted three books that would be six hundred. They intend to only have one hundred twenty-five items, which is approximately what we had. It is a good-sized show. So they are going to be able to pick and choose. Also, they are going to exhibit calligraphy and decorative papers--marbled papers--and we didn't do that either.

Teiser : You did have, as I remember, some earlier bindings.

Herrick: Yes, we had an introductory exhibit as one entered the area. There were several bindings of the past and some equipment and tools as an introduction to the subject.

Teiser: Those were just chosen for display?

Herrick: Yes. I have one of those here that I was going to show you because it's a beautiful example of binding, an elaborate Doves [Press] binding dating about 1895. The Guild, however, intends to locate, if possible, bindings of members of the past. So they'll have bindings from current members and binders from the past. So they have a big challenge. They have a very capable woman running it, Susanna ~or~hese;a lovely name and a lovely woman, too.

Teiser : How many members are there here of the Guild?

Herrick: Of about 425 members in all, there are seventeen who exhibited in our San Francisco Museum exhibition. In promoting the exhibit of the Guild show in hopes it will be scheduled here at Stanford, Herrick: I have used:that figure to demonstrate the quality of the show that the Guild is putting together: seventeen of our exhibitors will undoubtedly be in the show.

Teiser: To get back to your exhibit itself, you had-

Herrick: I think we had 128 bindings. There were only bindings. There was no calligraphy and no marbled paper or anything of that sort.

Teiser: To open it you had, as I remember, a number of very fine events.

Herrick: We had two events or three which were social. There was the opening, and there was the reception here at my home. Third, there was a meeting-and carefully timed--of the Hand Bookbinders so that those who might miss the other meetings might get together. Besides, other libraries in this area participated. I had a list of those. There are many of them who participated. They had exhibits to stir interest. Bancroft had an exhibit of the bindings of Florence Walter. Stanford had proposed an exhibit, but couldn't schedule it. But the Associates of the Stanford Library had a meeting at the museum at which a binder, namely Dr. Frank Novak, spoke. The Book Club exhibited a collection of fine bindings belonging to Duncan Olmsted. \ Teiser : How about financing it? Didn't it take an awful lot of money? .. Herrick: [laughs] That's an excellent question and I'm glad you asked it! ilil Herrick: I think we're all inclined to think that exhibits in public museums don't cost anything--particularly if we pay ten or fifteen dollars for a fine catalogue, that that easily supports the whole exhibit. The fact is that we received $10,000 from the National Endowment for the Arts and the museum had to contribute a like amount, which they did in services and so forth. The question of a catalogue was one which was most challenging as to funds. It was pos.sible in the extreme to not have any catalogue, or to have a simple checklist, which we've had in other exhibits, or to have a catalogue printed with no photographs, or in the most deluxe form, we would have a catalogue in which every single binding was shown in a colored photograph, and that we hoped for.

We engaged a designer, Jack Stauffacher. Jack took bids and the museum engaged the photographer, and when we discovered what each photograph would cost, we realized that it was out of our reach to have a colored photo of every binding. We also realized that we needed well over $10,000 more than we had in order to publish a decent catalogue. I volunteered, due to the character Herrick: of my cormittee (they being frightened to death of fund raising), I volunteered to do the fund raising myself. [chuckles] I was able to raise $11,000 and was pleased to have done so.

At the last minute we thought, if it was that easy, why not have color photos of all of the bindings? But that would have cost an additional $8,000. So we were faced with the decision of which bindings to illustrate in color.

We had two standards. One was that we excluded or didn't attempt to show colored photos of any local binders. Second, if we had to eliminate others, we would eliminate those that didn't look particularly spectacular in colored photographs. Bindings not shown in color were shown in black and white and consequently there was some illustration of every binding in the show. The result was that we had a very popular and successful catalogue, partly because of the designer and partly because of the excellent color photographs. However, we lost one member who had labored long on his beautiful and quite elaborate binding. It was not shown in color and the member resigned from the Hand Bookbinders ! [laughs ]

Teiser : Did you recover anything on the sales of them?

Herrick: Oh, no. I believe all catalogues are subsidized.

They were printed by Cal Central Press who did an excellent job, althought the first ones that came out had some defect observed by Jack Stauffacher and they reprinted a lot of the pages. I couldn't observe the defect. It was something about an irregular margin. The margin was one width in most of the book but in some section it was less or something of that sort.

Teiser : Jack has a very good eye.

Herrick: Oh, excellent, excellent. Jack worked very hard on the catalogue and we were very happy with the result. I had to buy another catalogue recently to send it to someone to demonstrate what such an exhibit looked like when I was promoting the future Guild exhibit. I went to the museum to buy one and I said, "How is this going?" He said, "It's the best catalogue werve ever had. It's still selling." I told Jack right away.

Teiser: Do you know at all how many people saw the exhibit here in San Francisco?

Herrick: No, I'm sure the museum does. *

*According to the museum, 11,852 people. visited the exhibit, Teiser: Did you feel satisfied?

Herrick: Oh, yes. I thought the way it was set up was excellent.

Teiser: Hw many rooms did it have?

Herrick: It was mainly in one large room, but there was another room leading to it.

Teiser: Hw long did it stay up?

Herrick: From the twenty-second of March to the seventh of May.

Teiser: People came from the East?

Herrick: From the East and quite a few from Europe--exhibitors, English, Belgian, Dutch--one or two from each country, but we were very happy

Teiser: Was 'there any interest in it from the Orient?

Herrick: It was assumed, even by travelers like Stella Patri, that Japanese bindings were in the Oriental style and consequently were not in the field of our bindings, and the decorations were entirely different. Nevertheless, we did have one exhibitor from Japan, and her bindings were excellent, the designs beautiful. She had studied in Belgium. Since then I've discovered still another binder from Japan named Miura. She is going to exhibit in San Francisco some time in the future.

Teiser : Those were western style bindings?

Herrick: Yes, totallv.

Teiser: Oriental binding is surely different, isn't it?

Herrick: Yes, it's sewn from the side and has soft covers typically, although that is not essential. But most of them are.

Teiser: It would be interesting to have an exhibit of that here, wouldn't it?

Herrick: Yes, it would, although they are not generally decorative. They dont t treat the covers in a very fancy manner.

Teiser: So you all had to pack up the show then. Herrick: The immediate requirement, of course, is to disassemble the exhibit so as to.make the space available for a future exhibit, but also to get the books on the road so that the next exhibitor gets them in ample time. Then there was a long period'when there was nothing to do. But finally, when the third exhibit closed in Philadelphia, the books were all returned to San Francisco and then had to be returned to the exhibitors.

Teiser: Was that easier than sending somebody to Philadelphia to handle them?

Herrick: I thought of that and even volunteered to do it. Many of the bind- in- were offered for sale, and the ones that were offered for sale were, of course, returned to San Francisco and then the buyer was informed.

Teiser: Do you remember what the range of prices was?

Herrick: I don't remember, but I have them all in my office.

Teiser: All right. 1'11 ask you to add that in the transcript.

[Added later: The range of prices of bindings offered for sale was extensive. The lowest price was $265 and the highest $17,500. The latter binding was by Philip Smith and the book was the Bremer Presse reprint of the great Vesalius. Many bindings were.offered at prices under $1,000. However, one binding priced at $6,000 appeared simple enough and was the binding of a 1973 book of no great value. I presume the binder was politely saying "not for sale. "1

Harroun: How did the exhibit at the Kansas City Nelson Gallery turn out?

Herrick: They said very successfully. This is all indicated in a recent issue of the Guild of Book Workers Journal which only arrived yesterday. It's the issue of 1977-78, volume 16, number 1,2, and 3. There is an article by Leah Wollenberg in which she wrote about the exhibit and where it was shown and what success resulted.

Teiser: Do you feel that exhibits like that promote the sale of fine bindings ?

Herrick: They do promote them. Our annual exhibit at John Howell Books in San Francisco this year, for example, didn't sell any books. However, Mr. Howell always appreciates having a list of books offered for sale because people seeing the exhibit come in and say, "Are any of these for sale?" They have sold in the past. The Guild exhibit is going to offer books for sale. One local binder, a very able binder, fmplied recently that he wouldn't even enter the Guild unless salcs were available, and I don't blame him at all. Teiser: This is an imponderable and I'm sure you have thought about it: What can be done to stimulate sales of fine bindings?

Herrick: It's a real mystery, as we've said before, There are really only two collectors of fine bindings in this region, Northern California, which is certainly a bookish region, and I can't explain it. I met with three wealthy lllen last weekend. We played bridge together and I teased them about collecting useless articles and why didn't they collect ffne binding? They can all well afford it. But I didn't get any response. One said he collected stamps.

Teiser: I can see that would be different from book collecting.

Herrick: Well, there are many contrasts. One is that it doesnrt take any space to store stamps, and another one is that books are considered intellectual and consequently repulsive to some people. [laughter]

Teiser: Do museums buy bindings ever?

Herrick: Yes, the British Museum has bought quite a number of bindings. No local museum has ever bought a binding that I know of.

Teiser: Libraries?

Herrick: Stanford, of course, has the finest binding collection in this

region, the Morgan Gunst collection, and those were contributed. : , They may have bought some.

Teiser: I wonder if it doesn't happen occasionally that someone buys a hand- bound book just for its own interest.

Herrick: There is a case where it happened. A woman went into Howell's and was attracted towards a binding that was there on exhibit--not in our show. This was prior to our show. It was a very ornate, unusual or novel binding. She liked it very much and bought it. I subsequently met the person, and she has a substantial library but no bindings, and now she is interested in bindings.

Teiser: Maybe there will be a third collector!

Herrick: Yes, I keep telling h.er that !

Teiser: Some of the books exhibited there in the last shag at Yowell's were to my mind tricky bindings, and I wondered if they might not attract the kind of buyer who wouldn't think that the books looked too intellectual [laughs] but would look like ornaments. Herrick: There is a tendency now to use fine bindings as an ornament. The most extreme case, of course, is the book wall. Mr. Howell naw has Lage ~arlson'sbook wall on exhibit and has offered it for sale.

The fact is that there is so much activity of people trying to find something to collect, I am astounded that they haven't become interested in fine bindings. People even collect fine paintings and stf clc them in the basement or in the safe.

Teiser: Of course, fine bindings need maintenance, don't they?

:rrick: They do and should be maintained, but I think the people, the buyers, don't know that and they don't maintain the books, as many libraries do not. I doubt very much that Stanford lubricates the skins of their bindings.

Harroun: The Library at U.C. Davis had a display of fine bindings the last time we were up there.

Herrick: Oh, they did. That's good. I didn't know that.

The Younger Binders

Herrick: I'm very happy that there are some active, young binders. Unfortu- nately, it's difficult if not impossible to make a living doing fine binding. The sources of income, other than selling fine bindings, are teaching and doing restoration and repair. Lage Carlson, I think, doesn' t do either of those. He does nothing but fine binding. I can't think of any other fine binder that either doesn't have another source of support, being say a married woman', or does teaching or repair.

If you do do repair or restoration, you can make a living, but you then don't have time to do any fine binding if you're interested in doing it.

Teiser: Someone like Johanna Goldschmid has a job that is related, a library job.

Herrick: Exactly, it's related, but she doesn't spend very much time binding, I'm sure, at the moment. I can't remember when I last saw one of her bindings. She didntt have any at the last Howell show.

Teiser: If you worked a five-day week--

Herrick : She doesn' t work .Mondays , but I think she works Saturdays. Teiser: --if you have two days a week in which you are free, can you bind books in two days, or do you have to do things more continuously?

Herrick: No, I bind on Saturdays and Sundays.

Teiser: Can you just walk out on Sunday and then not come back to it until the next Saturday?

Herrick: Absolutely. That is one of the luxuries of having a studio, that you don't have to clean up after each session. If you had to clean up and put everything back in order--for example, if you worked in your living room or if you worked in the kitchen--it would be important to do binding for long hours because you would spend so much time cleaning up and also setting up. Setting up some of the processes is more time consuming than performing the process.

Teiser: Who is going to be able to stick at it long enough to become notable? Mrs. Hiller, does she have time to do--

Herrick: Barbara Hiller is a superb teacher and without any question is the finest teacher in this area. She does not have time to take any commissions and she has stated, although I think that she has made exceptions, she has stated that she will not accept commissions.

Teiser: Does she do bindings for her pleasure?

Herrick: No, I don't think she does any binding at all*, whereas Betty Lou Chaika, formerly Betty Lou Beck, teaches at Mills, and I believe has private lessons going too. She does take comndssions. I haven't really discussed this with her, but I have no doubt that she'd like to spend her life not being a housewife and not being a mother to a two-or-three-year-old baby and not teaching, but doing binding all the time.

Donald Glaister of Mountain View**, who is an excellent binder, has students. But he turns out some beautiful bindings and I'm sure you saw them at the exhibit. The one with the ribbons, for example, was a beautiful binding, I thought.

Teiser: If you were having such an exhibit here twenty years from now, of local binders, whose books do you think would turn up in it?

*See interview with Barbara Hiller in this volume.

**Later of Palo Alto. Herrick: That's a good question and I think undoubtedly Donald Glaister, Betty Lou Chaika, and Lage Carlsonrs would. Oh, Jeannie Sack is another very gifted binder and certainly her bindings would show up twenty years from ncw. Capricornus consists of Ann Kahle, who was a Designer Bookbinders fellow, and has won prizes in England, and her husband, Theo. They operate a well-run studio, because Theo is full of ideas, and they do a great deal of teachihg. I don't know how many commissions they take for fine bindings, but they do repair and restoration for various libraries at the University of California at Berkeley, particularly the law library. I would say that in the entire area that the Kahles come the closest to making a good living out of binding.

- Teiser: Do just the two of them work or do they have employees ?

Herrick: No, as far as I know they have no employees. They teach groups of as many as ten. They teach at institutions. And they teach individuals.

Teiser: They've got lots of energy.

Herrick: They are a very hard-working couple.

Teiser: I keep wondering--Shemood Grover, say, who does hand typesetting, uses fine papers, and is uncompromising in his standards, does printing on the same basis that many hand binders do fine binding. Why is it impossible for hand binding to make enough concessions to fine printing so that excellent, creative bindings, if not binding up to fine hand binding standards, could be done for his books?

Herrick: lhat you're saying is that if Sherwood had an edition of a hundred books that he printed on fine paper and said to the printer that ten of those might be bound in special--

Teiser: Why couldn't a hundred of them? I really mean someone who does production binding with a very creative design-

Herrick: The market isn't great enough for that., I am frequently offered a fine printing from England in which I have the choice of two or three different grades of binding. There will be one issued in book cloth perhaps, and then there will be one in quarter leather and one in full leather. They employ very fine binders to do that. I can show you examples.

Teiser: Regular publishing companies ?

Herrick: No, these are fine printers like Sherwood Grover.

Teiser: So the printer commissions a binder to do ten or so? Herrick: Yes, but I don't know of any case locally or in the United States.

Teiser: It is surprising that there has been no comprodse in between these two fields.

Harroun: What about Stanley Bray of London?

Herrick: He will do anything you ask him to do and what a man! Yes, he does complete editions. But you see, even if Sangorsky and Sutcliffe, as directed by Stanley Bray, did an edition of a hundred, each book, presuming the book would be worth a hundred pounds, when he was through with it, it would be worth a thousand pounds or five hundred pounds, and there isn't that much of a market.

i Teiser: I think I'm still that there be a whole new type of case binding that isn't meticulous but that still is sturdy as well as excellently des igne d . Herrick: I think that is merited and probably there are cases. But such books would not interest a fine binder, nor would they interest a collector of fine bindings. They would interest collectors of fine print. There are .cases. I have them here.

Teiser: Well, I won't start a revolution! [laughter]

Herrick: If you could start a revolution that would result in young, able . . binders earning a decent living, I would be very interested.

Books Bound and Books Collected

Teiser: To return to your own books, after we were speaking in the last interview, you were showing us a very inventively designed book. I thought I would ask you to tell a little more about some of your bindings. When you consider your first book, which I believe you gave away (and I'm sure you know how it looks) and your last, do you -find that your technique has developed or changed? tt Teiser: [interruption] You said that your technique had not changed because you had decided upon your technique in the first place and stuck to it.

Herrick: Yes.

Teiser: That is unusual, isn t it? Herrick: Yes, but as I explained earlier, it is partly because of my age and partly because I am an amateur and I can only devote so much time to ny hobby, and it's a successful technique as taught by Peter Fahey.

Teiser: You were going to choose a few of your books to discuss.

Herrick: Yes, I took the Allen Press Genesis because I am proud of it. It is a design I made. In Hebrew it spells Genesis this way, and Roman Genesis that way.

Teiser: Right to left and left to right.

Herrick: Yes. I particularly appreciate ny choice of end papers. It is Japanese end paper, but when I started to use it it was toobrilliant, too sharp. So this has a lace paper over it to soften the sharpness of the line. I thought it gave the idea of genesis, the founding of the world.

Teiser: A panel inset into the back of the front cover. So you brought the leather around--

Herrick: Yes, that's the turn around.

Teiser : --on the front and the back, and left the panel clear for the end paper.

Herrick: Yes, which is a common technique.' You will see that repeated over and over again. This book was exhibited in the East in an exhibit set up by the Guild of Book Workers.

This [another book] is one of Donald Brownts initial designs. I particularly like it because it reflects the book, which is another Allen Press book. It is called Six Stories of Spanish California or The Splendid Idle Forties. Itrs a design I like because it involves a number of different skins and different textures. It also involves a freehand blind tooling which was done with a hot soldering iron.

Teiser: Is this what you call onlay?

Herrick: Yes, these are all onlays .

Teiser: How many different kinds of leather have you used?

Herrick: I think four. The skin has even been heightened with inks somewhat.

Teiser: Is this what is called saddle leather?

Herrick: Yes, exactly. Teiser: And th.e box?

Herrick: It is a Donald Brown box and a Donald Brown label. He makes beautiful boxes.

This is the binding that was on exhibit at John Howell Books and it's using dyed cobra skin. It was also designed by Donald Brown.

Teiser: Cobra?

Herrick: Yes, dyed cobra skin.

Teiser: Haw did you happen upon that?

Herrick: It was in the estate of Peter Fahey, and why she had it or how she intended to use it, I have no idea. This uses almost the entire cobra skin.

Teiser: What is the book?

Herrick: It is the Temptation of St. Anthony. Of course, he dreamt of snakes you recall, if you're a student of Flaubert. Donald didn't see "Allen Press" there in the first design. But I showed him that it was AP, so he changed it a little and it comes out "AP!" This is the cross for St. Anthony and that is "AP."

Teiser: A very complex design.

Herrick: In contrast, this has a very plain end paper.

Teiser: What is that?

Herrick: That is a Fabriano end paper, and its being plain and being unsized, it shows finger marks and all kinds of marks. It is very hard to handle. I seem to have saved it, but there were some defects in applying the end paper.

Recently, while I was waiting for the design of another book, I designed this myself and bound it, The Bible of the Revolution, which was published by John Howell Books in 1930 and printed by Grabhorn. I started in by choosing the skin, which I thought was a very lovely piece of morocco, which I had at hand, and then I decided to make a design which was consistent with the subject. As you see, there are thirteen stars there. When you have a simple binding like this it accentuates the beauty of the skin.

Teiser: You used blind tooling for a panel. Herrick: Yes. This also was a challenging work for the binder because it involves using a roulette which is a wheel to make the tooling and it requires a steady hand. I call it "certain death" because if you make a single mistake there is nothing to do. I practiced over and over and over and over again. It's a hot tool and you run right down here and end there. Starting at the right time and ending at the right moment is essential. This design was based on a design within the book. Here is the page right here.

Teiser: Oh, yes, the stars are there.

Herrick: Yes, so it's not original. While I was making this design, remem- bering that Valenti Angelo was working for Grabhorn at this time, I said, "Valenti, did you design the pages of The Bible of the Revolution?" He said, "No." So at that point we went over and looked at the Grabhorn bibliography and he -had designed it! [laughs] He had forgotten. [more laughter]

Teiser: It looks more like a Nash book than a Grabhorn because of the rules.

Herrick: Yes, you're right; yes, exactly, It's a leaf book. It has actual pages from the Aitken Bible. This end paper is red, white and blue but it is a Japanese paper.

Here's one of the.books I mentioned earlier, one that I gave my daughter and she's allowed us to store it here. This is one of the first books I had done. That's the Grimms fairy tales. Remember I said that it was a family heirloom, a hundred years old.

People are always saying, "Well, you didn't do the gold lettering yourself," and, of course I did.

Teiser: You did?

Herrick: [laughs] Sure! That is a source of pride. Amateur binders are inclined to allow someone else to do some of the work from time to time, and the only thing I do is to let Donald design them and even then I influence the design by choosing color schemes that may not match what he had, or sometimes we design cooperatively.

This is one of the most successful of Donald's designs and a popular design. It is Transposed ~eadsby Thomas Mann, another Allen Press printing. Don't you think that's good?

Teiser: There is.a positive-negative image.

Herrick: If you know the story, you know the significance of the design.

Teiser: What leather is that? Herrick: This is all morocco. This is a good example of Donald's coming to - my studio and together we'd choose different scraps of leather that suited him and that I happened to have.

Teiser: This again is onlay?

Herrick: This is all onlay. This has a very original type of tooling, which is not tooling at all. The black line that surrounds the yellow head is scraps of black leather torn to make it look like blind tooling. That's a technique I've never seen before but Donald and I devised it. The end papers are a very early Douglas Cockerell. They go with the color, I think. Isn't that lovely?

~eiser: Is that a peacock design?

Herrick: Well, it's no design at all. It's a Douglas Cockerel1 method of decorating paper. He combs with some kind of a tool when it's wet.

This was the book that was exhibited in the international exhibit. Being on the jury, I felt it was only fair that I had a book in the exhibit, so I had this book in the exhibit. This is an exquisite book, not necessarily an exquisite binding. It's a beautiful book. It's Bruce Rogersl.The Song of Roland with hand- painted drawings of stained glass at Chartres.

Now, here is a defect in the binding. See the black dot there,' and there are a few others. Other binders would be more aware of that than you might be. That's the result of using Scotch tape or self-adhesive tape and then putting it in a press, which was ridiculous, of course, but I did it,and there it is. It's impossible to get out. This was a very difficult binding. You have this blind tooling, a very heavy line, and then this great quantity of gold which was all done with a short pallet, a little, short tool over and over and over again hundreds of times. See, here's some more of that nasty black stain. [laughs] I keep seeing it!

You can see the nature of my book collection is all fine print. This is an entire run of Allen Press here, and it goes over there from.beginning to end. Then almost the entire run of the Gregynog, the Welsh press. And this is Vale Press of Charles Ricketts.

Harroun: What is this big Bible?

Herrick: That is a binding by a commercial binder in England called RiviOre. That is the famous Bruce Rogers Oxford Lectern Bible which was never intented to be bound in a single volume and it's very unwieldy. It weighs sixteen pounds. But it is an exquisite book. Every page is beautifully designed. Teiser: You should keep it open on a lectern.

Herrick: Yes, you're right. The Gleeson Library* does that now. They were just given one. This is the famous Ashendene Dante, and that's the Kelmscott Ch?ucer. This is Thucydides of Ashendene [Press] in vellum.

This is Valenti Angelo's biography, which I bound. I'll show you that because I'm proud of that. This is all William Nicholson. This is the largest collection of William Nicholson, certainly in the United States.

Teiser: How did you happen to think of collecting Nicholson?

Herrick: I was allowed to look at Eleanor Hesthal's library shortly after her death. I pulled out a book with no lettering on the spine and opened it up and immediately decided that I loved the artist. I had never heard of him. This is not the one that I opened, but that's the way the book looked. This is called The Square Book of Animals. It's a beautiful series. Isn't that fun? I love William Nicholson. I even traced his sole surviving daughter, and she was a house guest here about a year or so ago.

I was going to show you the Valenti Angelo design on his biography which he claims that he made especially for me. I bought it in loose sheets. This was based on his design really, but Valenti's was so elaborate that I couldn't duplicate it. It was enough work just to do what I have done. That's Valenti's logo more or less. See the "VA?"

Here is an example of a technique that I am trying to correct now. You probably didn't notice it because you are not binders, but these books all yawn. That's called "yawning. "

Teiser: They bow out slightly.

Herrick: Yes. So to correct the buckling, the cover is lined with paper on one side. Paper pulls. Paper has a grain and you can make it pull or you can prevent pulling. One of these great big books had a warped cover. Peter Fahey looked at it after I bought it and said, "That can be corrected." She took apiece of very fine Japanese paper, very thin, cut it to shape and we pasted it and laid it on and the cover came out absolutely flat. The paper pulled it and

*At the University of San Francisco. Herrick: she knew just how much was required. This publication is by a small press that I just discovered called High House Press--English in the period of the twenties and thirties.

And here is a binding that I enjoyed making.

Teiser: It looks like an old-fashioned album.

Herrick: It's a Victorian album. It was in Marions's (my wife's) estate. It was in such bad condition that I rebound it as a gift to her. I used the brass off of the old one and then found some skin that I had in stock, and I had new covers made. These are plywood covers.

Here's my latest invention. This is a commercial box and it fits Fine Print exactly. That's my run of Fine Print starting from

number one and running- to 1987, because I had to buy three boxes! [laughter] So I made room for their future issues.

Here is the complete Colophon journal. Here is another fascination. Malcolm Lowry--that is a very complete collection of Malcolm Lowry, including his first book published in 1933 when he was a student at Cambridge. And that's the first edition of Under the Volcano.

Teiser: Well, we thank you for a very interesting tour through your bookbinding career and your collection.

Herrick: Thank you.

Transcriber: Michelle Stafford Final Typist: Marie Herold TAPE GUIDE - Stephen Gale Herrick

Interview 1: December 5, 1980 tape 1, side A tape 1, side B tape 2, side A

Interview 2: December 10, 1980 tape 2, side A (resumed) tape 2, side B tape 3, side A (side B not recorded)

BARBARA FALLON HILLER Regional Oral History Office Room 486 Library The Bancrof t Library University of California Berkeley, California 94720

Hand Bookbinders of San Francisco Interrriewee

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Mother's 'place of birth :?h ,r aa n U me= did you grow up? ,TI\.,I ,. 11 ) !., ' ,,, r;,.k? ,- :; - i OBITUARY

Barbara Fallon Hiller, one of San Francisco's fine bookbinders, died on November 29, aged 61, at Hilton Head, South Carolina, where she had moved only several months ago. A graduate of Vassar in art history and a student of San Francisco's famous bookbinding teacher, Edna (Peter) Fahey, she had studied in Paris in the 1960s before opening her own studio in this city. She worked basically in the French tradition, creating bindings on commission and on her own behalf, and teaching serious amateurs and professionals. Her recollections of her career were recorded in 1981 in a volume, THE HAND BOOKBINDING TRADITION IN THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA, created by the Regional Oral History Office of The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley. She was a member of the Hand Bookbinders of California, and her work was exibited in many local and national exhibitions. In addition. she was an animal lover and photographer, and for many years worked three days a week at Penny Patterson's Gorilla Foundation at Woodside and was vice president of the organization. Friends have suggested that memorial contributions be sent to the Gorilla

Foundation, P. 0. Box 620-530, Woodside, California

Ruth Teiser November 1988 Regional Oral History Office

INTERVIEW HISTORY

Barbara Fallon Hiller was born Barbara Fallon in 1927 in Chicago. She grew up in Winnetka, Illinois, and San Francisco, attending private schools. After graduation from the Katherine Delinar Burke School in San Francisco, she attended Vassar College, graduating in 1949 with a B.A. in art history.,

Seeking a career, and interested in books, she studied, briefly, library work. Then in 1962 or 1963 she began the study of hand bookbinding with Peter Fahey. She worked with Mrs. Fahey part time for one year, full t2me for two more. So far as can be determined, she is the one among Mrs. Faheyrs students who became professional bookbinders who studied most btensively with her. Then, in 1966, Mrs. Hiller went to Parfs to study for a year.

Returning to San Francisco the following year, Mrs. Hiller established a bookbinding studio and began working professionally, At first she did repair and restoration work, then turned mainly to teaching, although always managing the difficult task of finding some time to contfnue her own bookbinding.

A parallel occupation is her work with the Gorilla Foundation of Woodside, where she spends three afternoons a week teaching the gorilla Koko to commu- nicate by sign language, as she mentrons in the interview,

As the youngest of the bookbinders interviewed in thrs series, and the individual who is most actively carrying forward the San Francisco Bay Area hand bookbinding tradition, Mrs. Hiller brings the series to the present, and she looks into the future w2th a somewhat different point of view than that of her older colleagues.

The interview with Mrs. J3iller was held in her studio on Sacramento Street in San Francisco in a single session. She reviewed the transcript twice, making a few changes in details but none in the sequence or general subject matter.

Learning Bookbinding in San Francisco and Paris [Interview 1: February 5, 19811

Teiser: I see that your background is in art history.

Hiller: I majored in history of art at Vassar College, of course, which doesn't give me much practical training for anything. So after I got my divorce, I had done a variety of jobs, and then thought what am I going to do with my life? I thought I would like to work with my hands and I like books, so why not hand bookbinding--which I knew nothing about.

Teiser: Had you encountered any book art, illustration even, in your studies?

Hiller: No, I really hadn't.

Teiser: It's not in the normal curriculum, I suppose.

Hiller: No, it wasn't when I went to college. There was nothing like that. So I had never even seen a hand binding.

Teiser: There was an article in July 1965 in the San Francisco Examiner about you. It said that you had gone to the University of California Library School.

Hiller: I went there for a while, yes, very briefly, sort of off and on. I didn't like it really.

Teiser: So that didn't lead into it?

Hiller: That didn't lead into it, no. It was just the idea. I liked books and I liked working with my hands and in a sudden flash as it were: how about hand bookbinding? In my innocence or ignorance, I guess,

////This symbol indicates that a tape or a segment of a tape has begun or ended. For a guide to the tapes see page 174. Hiller: I thought it was something you could learn with a course of adult education and you're a bookbinder in six weeks! [laughter] Then I thought about it, and there was really no place that taught it.

Teiser: When was' this?

Hiller: Oh, I was trying to think when last night. I think it was probably about 1962 or early '63. I checked colleges. There was a course, I found out later, that at that time was given by Harry Green at San Francisco State. But somehow I missed that.

Teiser: There was nothing at Mills?

Hiller: There was nothing at Mlls, no. I couldn't find anything. So I thought, what now? I had seen some of the Grabhorn Press books and thought they were very beautiful. So I thought I'll go down and talk to the Grabhorns, which I did. I talked to one of the Grabhorn brothers. I asked his advice as to how I would go about learning binding. He said, "You're in luck. There is a good teacher right here, Peter Fahey ." I forget now which brother it was I talked to. But he did send me off to Peter Fahey, which was an incredible break that she was here and teaching, and she was able to take me on. I had a job at that point, so I started out one night a week studying with her, and then two nights. After about a year I was able to quit my job and study with her full time. It was an ideal way to learn.

Teiser: By then, you surely knew the realities of what you were getting into!

Hiller: It dawned on me very shortly that it was not going to be a six week--

Teiser: [laughs] Nor was it an easy way to get rich.

Hiller: Well, that was one thing. I thought this is what I want to make my living at. That for me is the only thing that makes sense going into it. There was an unfortunate feeling at that time that you simply couldn't make your living at hand binding. Peter had really just disliked even talking about money. So I thought this is going to be a problem obviously. But I did like it. The more I got into it, the better I liked it.

Teiser: Working with her and studying with her full time, what did that involve?

Hiller : It would be five days a 'week and, oh, possibly a two-and-a-half or three-and-a-half hour session in the morning and then another one in the afternoon. So it was very intensive. Teiser: During part of that time, was she doing her own work, or was she just instructing you?

Hiller: She really wasn't doing any work of her d at that time. She had other students, so she wasn't just concentrating on me. There were other students there. She would take up to I think three students at a time.

Teiser: Who was studying at that time?

Hiller: I think about the first person I met'was Leah Wollenberg. She really wasn't taking lessons. She would just come in occasionally for a lesson. Duncan Olmsted came in for lessons. Maurice Nicole (Stella Patri's nephew), and there were lots of others. But I just can't think of them at the moment.

Teiser: I've always wondered-of the people who studied with Peter Fahey, how many of them went on to be serious bookbinders?

Hiller: A lot of them gave it up, lost interest in it. I think probably most of the others became serious binders but not professional binders, as far as I know. It wasn't much of a profession at that point. But a lot of people like Leah went into it very seriously as a hobby, as a great interest. But there weren't a lot of people that I can think of who went on to do it professionally.

Teiser: There are .not many professional bookbinders in the world, come to . think of it, are there?

Hiller: Oh, yes, in Europe.

Teiser: In this country or in this area?

Hiller: Well, there are a lot more now in comparison. A lot of the younger people want to get into it now and do it professionally, which is exciting. Of course it's a self-generating thing. The more people who start doing it, the more work there is.

Teiser: Oh, is that right?

Hiller: Oh yes, oh. truly. The problem was that a lot of people in this. country or at least around here either didn't know there was such a thing as hand bookbinding, or if they did they thought it wasn't being done here and so they sent their work to Europe. So, of course, when it came out that there were people doing it here seri- ouslyandthey were doing first-rate work, then more work built up.

Teiser: When you started then in the early sixties, who besides Peter Fahey was working seriously? Hiller: Stella Patri; there was Bob Bruckman up in Inverness who was doing it professionally; and then Leah and Duncan, who were certainly doing it very seriously, had an interest. Who else? [pause] Stella's nephew was doing it a lot, Maurice Nicole.. There was a young woman named Carol Reid, who seemed to be getting into it. I don' t think she's doing it now. I don't know -really whether she is or not. I'm sure I'm missing a whole lot of people.

Teiser: But on the whole there were few compared to now?

Hiller: Oh, much fewer than now, there really were. But people came and left.

Teiser: If you had been working then as you are now, would the opportunities for work have been smaller?

Hiller: Oh yes, yes. A few years ago it really got quite exciting, possibly six or seven years ago. Many more people are wanting to learn it, wanting to do it professionally, a lot more. When I started there wasn't much work. Ordinary repair work was the bread and butter. Most people thought if you got anything bound it would be the family Bible. So it was mainly-I spent an awful lot of years working on Bibles, that kind of thing.

Teiser: Did you develop .a feeling for Bibles?

Hiller: I developed an absolute hatred for doing ordinary repair. I was not like Stella is. She is a specialist in book conservation and restoration. So she works on some fascinating books. I wasn't that good. I could only do ordinary repair. So the books themselves were not terribly interesting. You feel that they are not worth your time. I think repairing is terribly hard work. Working on new things is much easier. I don't like mending paper, that sort of thing. I hate it.

Teiser: How long did you continue working with Peter Fahey?

Hiller: I studied with her for just about three years, two of them full time. Then I was able to go to Paris and study for a year in Paris.

Teiser: Whom did you study with there?

Hiller: I studied the tooling with Jules ~ach6and binding with Constant Dreneau and then towards the end some edge gilding with Louis Gallier. I took private lessons. I started out in school, but it was just-- I wasn't learning enough quickly enough. So I got private lessons.

Teiser: I suppose you had already learned what you would have learned in school? Hiller: No, it wasn't that, because the techniques were quite different. I had a foundation, of course, a good solid foundation, from Peter. But the French techniques were quite different, so it was really starting the book from the beginning.

Teiser: Did you prefer those techniques?

Hiller: Yes, I did.

Wiser: What was Peter Fahey's technique basically?

Hiller: I think she was more rather a combination of the German and the British techniques. That, of course, was her training. I found that in mdny ways the French techniques were a good deal simpler, less complicated. They do less to a book and also are much more elegant.

Teiser: For instance, what is an example of a comparison?

Hiller: Their treatment of a book board is one example. The British take the hoard and line it up three times with one piece of paper on the outside and two on the inside. The French said, "That's nonsense. You put the paper on the inside and it does what you want it to do." It's those kinds of little differences in technique. I did think that their sewing was quite.different. The French saw in for the cords which so many of the British and a lot of people around here thought was a cardinal sin. In some, they poked holes, and I didn't see the difference. Things like that.

The French bindings would be light in feeling, not as heavy. The structure was equally good, the basic structure just as solid, will last just as long. But they used a rather lighter board, much more polishing of the leather itself. The whole thing has a more elegant, a lighter feeling, and yet was' structurally sound which, of course, is the main thing.

Teiser: What about the design aspect, the French as compared to the British and German?

Hiller: I think the French, again because they have a more elegant way of treating the board, I prefer their designs. That, of course, is strictly my own taste. I don't know really what is being done in Germany now. Most of the~ritishbinders I don't like and that may be just that. If you like the French, you don't like the English automatically. It may be nothing more than that. [laughter]

Teiser: There has been some discussion of the difference in reference to the books' contents, whether the binding refers to the book's contents or is of a more standard design. Hiller: I think that's an essential in a design, that the binder works within certain limits, self-imposed work limits, which are the text, the contents of the book. I think your design must somehow reflect the contents of the book because it is one-whole entity--one thing-- so you can't go whooping off doing something entirely different. I found all of the French, when they talked about design, believe that somehow you must reflect the contents of the book on the cover.

Teiser: I was just thinking of a traditional British binding that can go on any book.

Hiller: That becomes a matter of economics actually. You don't always have a client who says put whatever design you want on the book, or who is willing to pay for that sort of thing. They sometimes just want a book done and so you, almost of necessity, sometimes just have to put on something that is more or less standard. People are not doing the really standard things so much now. But to find something that looks nice but is simple and can be done quickly--

Teiser: Speaking of working quickly, say you were going to do a book as simply as possible. Could you work just as quickly with a very fine leather as an ordinary leather? Does quality enter there?

Hiller: Oh, the better the quality, the easier the work. Oh, sure, yes.

Teiser: So actually, if you used finer materials, you would spend less time?

Hiller: Not less time-this is so hard to say. I would say that certainly finer materials are easier to work with. But it gets complicated because the finer materials are more expensive and so sometimes you have to use a less expensive skin. It kind of goes round and round.

The materials--of course,you try and use the best materials, and they are expensive. I think a French cape morocco skin may be running between $125-$150 a skin.

Teiser: Is that just for one book?

Hiller: It depends on the size of the book. Quite often it is just one book, with chemise and slip case.

Teiser: But still that is a rather considerable expense to begin with.

Hiller: Oh, the skin and the gold that you have to use. The price of gold now, of course, is so ridiculous. People are doing other things.

Teiser: What is the way you get around using gold? Hiller: Using different .materials. Eleanore Ramsey, the woman I share the bindery with, just finished a magnificent book. She did an onlay of the figure of a goat in a dark wood veneer, and it is beautiful. Using onlays of leather, colored (different colored) leathers, less of the gold tooling.

Teiser: More unconventional. -

Hiller: More experimental. That's really the only place in binding where you can use your imagination, is in the decoration. The actual method or technique of binding the book itself hasn't changed for years and years and years. So it's in your design. A lot of people are using different materials, and doing very interesting things. Different kinds of metals. I am just now trying to figure out how to pare down the edges of ultra-suede to see if I can use that. What I would use it for would be for the doublures inside-not to cover the book with-but for the doublures.

Teiser: So you can use any kind of materials--any kind of synthetics?

Hiller: Any kind, I think, any kind of material. You have to watch it that it will last, that it is durable. . .

Teiser: Does anyone know the durability of ultra-suede?

Hiller: I expect that at that price, it should be durable. Also, it depends on where you use it. If you use it as a doublure, it's not taking as much of a beating as if you tried to cover the book with it. But you have to watch your materials. You have to watch how well a material is going to work against another, or if it is so acid that it's just going to chew up the whole thing. But we figure--and I think that the client has the right to demand-that if the hand binder does the work properly, that binding should last, regardless of the quality of the book, for about two hundred years if just ordinary care is taken of it. So you do use the best materials.

You also have to use things that are reversible, so that when something does happen, the next binder can remove things. Adhesives must be water soluble, so that when your binding has to be taken off, it can be taken off with no damage to the book.

Teiser: Not many people work with that much of an eye to the future in other professions.

Hiller: No, they certainly don't seem to any more. But it makes it kind of fun, it really does.

Teiser: To go back to the sequence of events, you were in France for a year. Did you return here? Hiller: I came. back here, yes.

Teiser: Had you always been in San Francisco?

Hiller: No, my family is from a suburb of Chicago. -

Teiser: When did you-come here?

Hiller: We moved out here in '42.

Creating a Career

Teiser: So you returned after your year in Paris just to start then as a b.ookbinder?

Hiller: Just to start out as a bookbinder, yes. Well, it was difficult to get started, of course, as it is with anything, building up a clientele. But Leah referred some clients to me and Stella referred clients to me. It was all just repair work, which I didn't like doing, but I had to do it for some years.

Teiser: Did Mrs. Fahey refer people to you?

Hiller: No, she didn't. I don't know why, but she didn't. Stella did and Leah did. Those were the ones that helped me out.

Teiser: You didn' t teach at first?

Hiller: No, I didn't teach. Then when it was really rather difficult, and I didn't like what I was doing, I thought, "1'11 start teaching just the tooling," which was what I enjoyed the most. But I discovered there weren't enough people who wanted to learn just tooling, so then I got into teaching all phases of it.

Teiser: All the time that you were doing this dull repair work, were you also doing work of your own?

Hiller: I was doing some, yes, whenever I could, more than I am able to do now actually.

Teiser: Just books that you wanted to do?

Hiller: Just books that I wanted to really. In fact, I am always getting into arguments with other binders about what book is worth binding. I always felt that at least as far as my own things are concerned, any book I liked. If it comes out in a better edition or paper, Hiller: then, of course, I'll bind that. But if it doesn't, I'll buy what is available if I like the book. They're not as nice to work with, of course. The more beautiful books are much nicer to work with, and I had bought some very beautiful books.when I was in Paris. I had been able to get some, so I was able to work on those, which was pleasant.

Teiser: Did you buy them in sheets?

Hiller: Yes, the good books always come unbound in France.

Teiser: When you say books you like, do you mean books that you like to read or books that you like to look at?

Hiller: Books that I like to read.

Teiser: Do you consider the books you bind are reading copies?

Hiller: No, not really. A full dress job, no; full leather with an elaborate design that you've done a chemise and slip case for, that really is not a reading copy because a lot of them, of course, are in themselves works of art, not only the printing and the paper, particularly the French books. They will have original etchings, original lithographs. They are exceptionally beautiful and you wouldn't use them as a working copy any more than you would go through a portfolio of original lithographs, just keep thumbing through it. I think you have to be a little more careful. You could read the paperback! [laughter]

Teiser: In those days, and perhaps still now, were you interested more in illustrated editions or in fine type?

Hiller: Probably the illustrations interest me, but I think the whole thing. I don't know a lot about printing. I know practically nothing about printing. But when you see a book that has been beautifully printed on beautiful paper, the wh.ole thing works together so that it is an entity. It's a lovely thing. It's very exciting, the feel of it, of the whole work is nice. Books are nice things.

Teiser: I was looking up what you had bound that went into exhibits. I see that at least one of the Allen Press books is listed. Have you done much binding of other local presses?

Hiller: No, I haven' t done any. A couple of the Allen.books and that's all of the local. That's simply not from lack of interest but lack of time.

Teiser: You never have done Grabhorn books? Hiller: I've got one of them. I wanted to get their Shakespeare since I am very fond of reading Shakespeare. But I've just been able to get one which I have not bound yet. It's one of those projects to do in the future.

Teiser: Had you worked much on commission?

Hiller: Not the last few years. I had to stop taking commissions. I hope to get back to it.

Teiser: What have you done on commission?

Hiller: One for Duncan Olmsted and, oh, just a couple of others, but very few, very few.

Teiser: Are there many opportunities for commissions for books that you design?

Hiller: Now there are; a great many.

Teiser: From what kind of people?

Hiller: All different kinds of people. Some are book dealers, some are collectors. I had one woman come in-I don't know how she got my name-but she wanted a full leather'book done. She had had some poems that her husband had written printed, and she wanted those bound. So there are a lot of different kinds, but primarily book collectors and dealers.

Teiser: When someone comes in with a job like that that you don' t feel that you can take on, are you able to find someone else whom you can recommend?

Hiller: Oh, there are lots of people. Oh, sure, there are much better binders, I hate to admit, than I am. And that does hurt to admit, but there are people doing just first rate work.

Teiser: Is that so?

Hiller: Oh yes, beautiful.

Teiser: Are they getting enough of it to keep doing it?

Hiller: It's getting better. Donald Glaister down the Peninsula does some teaching, but he is kept very busy. Eleanore Ramsey, who I share the bindery with, is getting more and more commissions. Jeannie Sack is just starting to get quite a lot of commissions--and from different parts of the country, which is sort of interesting. It is a growing Hiller: field. It's getting better and better all the time. Of course, there are now more exhibitions, so people get a chance to see them, and that helps.

Teiser: Do you think it does?

Hiller: Oh yes, sure, because one of the main problems was in this country people earlier simply didn't know there was such a thing as a hand binding or didn't think it was being done here, that it was only being done in Europe. So now it's really just growing and growing.

Teiser: We were talking with Gale Herrick about this, too, and he was mentioning how few collectors there are in this Northern California area. But I don' t think we went into collectors of fine bindings in other regions and other parts of the United States.

Hiller: There are not a tremendous number, but they are growing. It just seems to get better and better all the time. ft Teiser: Do you assume that some of the bindings that are being done now will live forever in libraries and museums? That they will be given or left to them?

Hiller: I haven't really thought about it. It has'certainly happened in Europe, so I would imagine that it would happen here. But that's hard to say. Someof these libraries and museums--1 guess all of them--have budget problems.

Teiser: To go back, you gradually shifted from repairing to teaching. Then did you spend most of your time teaching?

Hiller: The first couple of years I didn't have many students and so it was doing some commissions, some teaching, a little of my own work. But then I began to get lots of students, so now it's virtually all teaching. As I say, I'm always hoping to have time to get back to doing at least some books for myself, to keep my hand in. But it's a matter of time. I have another job, so that takes up time.

Teiser: Do you think that you might get so sidetracked into teaching--

Hiller: That's what has happened actually. I haven't really been able to do much of anything for the last five years, and I would like to change that. Now, Don Glaister is handling it very well, doing some teaching but at the same time a lot of his own work, and it's a nice balance.

Teiser: What do you do? Do you-say, "No, I wonlt teach you any more?" Hiller: I don't know how you would do that. I don't think you could very well say that. I suppose you could refuse students or you could refer them to another teacher, but I don't think you could just stop cold.

Successful Students

Teiser: Who among the people who studied with you--you call them students?

Hiller: Students.

Teiser: -whom you remember particularly who have gone into the mainstream of these traditions that we've been--

Hiller: Donald Glaister-

Teiser: He worked with you?

Hiller: Yes, he studied with me for a number of years.

Teiser: Let me ask a little about him because we are not interviewing him and so we'd like to- get him on the record. How did he become interested in bookbinding?

Hiller: He had a job. He was working for the Stanford Library, I believe, in their repair department, and thought that the way the library was repairing books was pretty awful. He was a sculptor actually. That was his training and he had gotten his master's in sculpture. He had gotten awfully sick of what he called the "art scene," and then from working in the library somehow (I forget now how), he heard about me and started taking lessons. He did very well. He was very enthusi- astic. He is a hard, hard worker and does beautiful work.

Teiser: Can you characterize his work?

Hiller: It's fine binding. He doesn't do repair work. Commissions for new books, very excellent craftsmanship, beautiful designs. Of course, he is an artist and does just really first rate work.

Harroun: Now is he teaching, too?

Hiller: Now he is taking students, yes. That is why I say he's maintained a nice balance between some teaching and a lot of codssions. He's just doing very fine things, very, very excellent.

Then there is EleanoreRamsey who studied with me who is a superb binder. Teiser: What was her background?

Hiller: Eleanorecame from the Middle West and she had always wanted to do bookbinding, but was never able to. She was married for some time. They moved out here and she started to hear about Harry Green and started taking lessons from him. She was not able to take them in a block. She's always had to work. But then after a while Harry referred her to me, so she started studying with me. She studied with me for some years, and is now doing it professionally as much as she can. She is also doing a little teaching. But she does just magnificent work.

Teiser : You say she does as much as she can. Do you mean as much as she has time for or as much as she can get?

Hiller: As much as she has time for. She has a full-time job, so is working nights and weekends, which is hard.

Teiser: Are there many people who do that?

Hiller: Well, almost everybody when they start out, because it is hard to get started. It's hard to build up a clientele. ~u~ingtheequip- ment is incredibly difficult. Most of it--virtually all of it--has had to come from Europe. So you not only have the expense of the equipment itself, but you have to ship it, and that is very hard for somebody starting out.

Teiser: I know there has been a good deal of equipment floating around here, but I guess it gets taken up.

Hiller: It's taken up, and not only here but I understand now in Paris it's being b0ugh.t by antique dealers. Isn't that terrible? So itbecomes a conversation piece for somebody's living room, or if you want to get it you have to pay antique dealer prices. Oh, it's maddening. I was watching television-some play--the other night. I forget what it was--Nero Wolfe, I think.' There in his living room was a beautiful bookbinding press !

Teiser: What about paper? Is paper hard to get?

Hiller: Oh, no, it's not hard to get. We get all our decorative papers from--just about all-from Europe. There is a French woman, Claude Delpierre, who works in Paris and who does the best decorative papers there are.

Then there is Jeannie Sack who is now doing it professionally; also does first class work.

Teiser: What is her history in binding? Hiller: She's married, has two children, and was, I think, just looking around for something as a hobby and got into it, and really got very enth&i- astic and is now doing it very seriously and is extremely good. These young people are doing just first rate work. It's very exciting.

Betty Lou Beck [Chaika] studied with me for a while. She was a professional binder before she came to study with me. She is from the East somewhere. I forget just where. But she is a good binder and she is doing it professional1y.and doing some teaching off and on. Who else is there? [pause] A lot of people really just starting out. Janice Schopfer is a magnificent binder. She is still studying with me. I think she is about to take off on her own. Her work is just becoming very good.

Teiser: There comes a point, I guess, when people study with someone when they should stop. Do you ever suggest that or do they just suddenly decide that it's time to stop?

Hiller: I think they decide that it's time to stop. I occasionally will give them a nudge because it's sometimes hard. You get into the lesson situation and there is somebody to ask when things go wrong. I was scared to death when I started out on my own. I was scared that indeed, there is nobody to ask, "What do I do now?"

But it's just the idea of: so there you are, working by yourself. And it's pretty scary. So people are sometimes reluctant to . take the step.

I have always encouraged my students to do as much work on their own as possible right from the beginning. I have another bindery down the hall, a practice room, which they can use when they want to do work on their own, because I think that is important because it's terribly easy to become dependent on the instructor. You may do fine work during the lesson, but then you get off and try to do something that just doesn't work. So I try and get people to do as much as they possib.ly can on their own and take commissions while they're still studying; anything to make the break less traumatic.

Most bookbinders, of course, work by themselves. There you are, all alone in this bindery, and you think, "What do I do now? Help!" [laughter]

Teiser: Do any of you trade information on how to get out of a spot?

Hiller: Oh, sure. That's one thing about the profession here at least that has always been very nice. It's always been more of a spirit of cooperation rather than competition which is becoming, I think, increasingly rare. These dayS, you get stuck in a problem and call somebody up and they are delighted to tell you. I don't think there Hiller: is any-with one possible exception-nobody has any techniques that they keep secret or anything like that. So it's very nice. There has been a lot of cooperation, sharing information or referring clients to another binder, all that sort of thing, which makes it a very pleasant field to be in. It's a nice feeling.

Teiser: Back to your students, do you have some others who--

Hiller: Ilse and Bryan Hansen-Upsher, who studied with me are now both--1lsa at least is--working professionally in Toronto. They moved to Canada three or four years ago. There are people that I sort of lost track of who came and were 'already binding, but came simply to learn my particular techniques.

Teiser: What particular techniques do you have that they came to learn?

Hiller: The French techniques. Mainly in this country, as far as I know, up until quite recently, it was the English techniques or combination of English-German techniques that were taught. There were quite a number of people who were interested in learning the French techniques, but who were already binders.

Teiser: Have some of the people who have formerly also worked with Peter Fahey worked with you?

Hiller: Yes, Gale Eerrick came and took lessons for a while. Joann Miller is taking lessons now. Of course, she is a binder. But she had started out studying with Peter. She is another one who is a first rate binder. She started--she learned-with Peter and Stella Patri. She is a professional binder and a very fine one. She is studying with me now just to learn the French techniques. It is a good idea, I think, to go to different teachers. You should become exposed to more techniques, so you have more of a choice and you can choose what is right for you.

Teiser: Who else besides you and Glaister would you go to?

Hiller: Eleanore Ramsey, Betty Lou Beck Chaika.

Teiser: But these are people who already studied with you.

Hiller: Jus.t to learn certain things.

Teiser: Are there other binders who do things quite differently from you?

Hiller: Oh, sure. Yes, I think that you diverge after you learn a technique or several different ones. Then you pick out what is right for your way of working and you go off on that one and there are variations. You find that just about everybody starts doing things the way they Hiller: think is the best for them. They may find some way that is quite different fromwhat you've taught, but it comes out well. So people do, once they have done it and they find that "it's not really cheating if I don' t do it the way Barbara taught me!" But that takes a while. So they do go off on their own. The binding itself is fairly standard, but it's in the matter of the decoration. They start using different materials, they find a certain paper that they like to use to line up their boards with that is different from what I have shown them, that sort of thing.

Teiser: I see a continuation of interest in American handmade papers and also decorative papers. Do you use any of those? .. . Hiller: No, I really don't. There again it's a practical matter. I like to use materials that I am familiar with, that I know how they'll behave. So I have just always continued to order my things from Paris.

We do need some ordinary papers that you put in the front- and the back of the book that you bind, so you do need book paper. But I generally order the same thing from the same sources. It's a practical matter. It takes less time. I know what I'm getting. I know how it will behave with a certain adhesive and all of that. I wish I had more time to look around because I think people are doing very fine things.

Teiser: I got something in the mail today from this group in Berkeley--

Hiller: Pacific Center for the Book Arts?

Teiser: Yes.

Hiller: They are doing all sorts of exciting things. It's a very young organization. Janice Schopfer and Betty Lou Beck [Chaika], Johanna Goldschmid, are in on that. They are just doing all sorts of things. It's very exciting. It's trying to get all aspects of the book arts together, give courses, give seminars, put on shows, and I think they are doing very well. It's only been in existence a year.

Teiser: The material they send out seems fairly convincing and professional.

Hiller: They spent, I think,about three years planning. They just planned it step by step very carefully and, I think, really very well. They're doing a good job.

Teiser: There certainly are enough young people interested in various aspects of it. Hiller: A lot;,a lot of printers, calligraphers.

Teiser: To get back to your students here, maybe we should finish the main ones.

Hiller: I'm sure I'mleaving someone else out. I'd say Florence Dupont is really-she is still studying with me. She cwover from Belgium to study with me.

Teiser: She is the one who arrived when you had just been in an automobile accident?

Hiller: Yes, a terrible time. She had just got to this country and I got hit by a van. So it was off to a bad start, but we pulled ourselves together.

Teiser: How long were you out?

Hiller: It was about two months. I'm just hoping to get through this February. Last February I broke my leg, and every February I think maybe I should just make an appointment with Dr. Gordon! [laughter] These annual accidents I seem to have! But I would say Florence really is--I don't know if she's started taking commissions yet or not, but she is a first rate binder. Julie Piper, who is over in Marin County, is still taking lessons but is a very advanced student who does excellent work. There is another one, Sandy Nisley-Leader, who studied with me several years ago. She came up from Carmel and she and her partner opened a bindery in Carmel and worked there for several years. But then she had family problems. I think her father was very ill, so she had to quit. She is now living over in Marin County and has come back to take some more lessons just as kind of a refresher course. But she is a professional binder and has just moved back to this area.

Teiser: I can visualize a. bindery on a main street of Carmel- gathering in all kinds of shoppers, asking about rebinding grandfather's BlbTe.

Hiller: Sandy said they had an awful time. They almost had to put up a sign in the window, "by appointment only.'' A lot of people would wander in just to see what the funny old binder is doing.

Teiser: When we were in Paris last year, near our hotel was a bindery with a couple of women working. You could watch them, but they didn't want to look up! .

Hiller : You become very ferocious. Some of it takes a good deal of attention and you don't have time. It's hard work. Right now, it's still not easy to make a living. You have to put in a lot of hours and you really have to work very hard. It's a problem with all of us, I think--not having enough time. Teiser: Bookbinding seems so discontinuous. You have to do something and wait. Do you have to schedule operations very carefully?

Hiller: Generally, no. The ideal thing is to have.a number of books going at the same time, so that you don't lose time when you do have to wait for something to dry or whatever. You want to be able to move right on to another book, because that can waste an awful lot of time. It's almost impossible to make a go of it if you are just working . on one book at a time because it takes so long.

Teiser: What about two people or three people working together? Does.it often work out?

Hiller: I don't think so. I have never known it to. There again, you get back to the fact that everybody really has their own techniques, and I don't think any of us gets along that well! [laughter]

Teiser: Maybe it takes an individualist to be a bookbinder.

Hiller: It seems to. Peter Fahey and Stella Patri were partners for a while, but I think they each did their own work.* Now, with Eleanore and I, we share the bkrdery but we each do our own work. As far as the work goes, it's completely separate. I thought when I got back from Paris, we really had a good many skills and I felt then (and I still really do) that possibly the American binders shouid specialize a little more rather than try to do all phases of it. So I thought, why don't we start a school? Peter could teach the binding, Stella could teach the repairing, Donald Brown could teach calligraphy, I could teach the tooling. We had a couple of meetings and we just fought. No agreement whatsoever! [laughter]

Around here there is nobody working in p-artnership. There were a couple of people I knew in Paris who did. It's rather too bad, because it is so solitary. I think it might be more stimulating if a couple of people could work together. I know I enjoy sharing the bindery with Eleanore because when we do see each other we can exchange ideas, and that does make the whole thing more exciting. Particularly in the past, when you couldn't see any other bindings, it was very difficult. There were no shows, no exhibitions. A painter can go and look at other people's paintings. We weren' t able to go and look at other bindings and that made it very difficult.

Exhibit ions

Hiller: Now there are a good many more shows, so you do get a chance to see others.

* See page 47. Teiser: What are they?

Hiller: The Hand Bookbinders of California have an annual show at JohnHowellfs. There was the show at the Bancroft. I put.on a show for my students last spring. It was a good show. They did nice work. Janice Schopfer was living at a warehouse at that point. We took the downstairs and we turned it into a gallery. I don't even have any photographs here. But it was a good show.*

Harroun: Weren't there pictures in the paper?

Hiller: There was a writeup about it. Mickey Friedman of the Examiner did a nice writeup for us.

People are starting to get into European shows, which is very exciting. Just about all of us were in a show in Belgium. Then Janice and Eleanore--well, the books didn' t get there but they were ' in the catalogue of a show outside Paris. Then Eleanore and Jeannie were invited to show in Vienna at a big show. So it's becoming more of an international thing.

Then there is a large traveling show from the Guild of Book Workers in New York that is coming up this spring.

Teiser: Were you just working on something for it?

Hiller: Well, I thought I would like to submit a couple of bindings, so that people wouldn't start saying, "Oh, Barbara Hiller, she is the one that died ten years ago, isn' t she?" [laughter] You get to that point !

Teiser: What did you do?

Hiller: I had one binding that had been completed, and then I finally completed another one that I had been working on for a long time. So there were two full leather bindings.

Teiser: What are they?

Hiller: One is Les Fleurs du Ma1 of Baudelaire, and one is Croquis Parisiens. They are both very elegant French books. One of them is large-sized book.

Teiser: The big international exhibit here in 1978, was that as great a thing to you binders as it seemed?

Hiller: Not to us, no; not to the local binders. I think I'm the wrong one to ask about that because I get very angry about it.

* "The Artisan 6 The Book," held at 157 Bluxome Street, San Francisco, April 28-May 25, 1980. Teiser: Why?

Hiller: It was put on by our own organization, and the local binders were treated very badly. They were treated as second class binders.

Teiser: Why?

Hiller: I don't know, but none of the local binders were in the catalogue in color. A rather important catalogue was put out. None of the local binders were reproduced in color, only in very bad black-and-white. The localbinders' books were not displayed well. I think it did a great deal of damage as far as we were concerned. I think it was most unfortunate. I think it was unforgivable 'actually.

Teiser: It seems to me that about the color reproductions--they didn't have as much money as they thought they were going to get,. was that it?

Hiller: I'm sure it was a matter of money, but I think for our own organization to take all of us and put us in black-and-white, and put all of the others in these very excellent color-I think it did a great deal of harm. The show is over, but the catalogue is still around and will be around for a number of years. So I think that really was very damaging to us.

Teiser: But- I wonder if it didn't create interest beyond the permanent record of it? Were people made more aware--not binders-but people who might-

Hiller: Yes, I think so. I think there was quite a large attendance. I think, on the whole, the show was very exciting. It was fun to see. Itwas a museum show. But I think it was unforgivable the way the local binders, of equal quality with the other binders in the show, were just treated so uniformly shabbily.

Teiser: In the exhibit, too?

Hiller: For the most part, the local binders' books were sort of pushed in the back where you needed to fill up space.

Teiser: It wasn't just a matter of politeness?

Hiller: I had heard thatthat'swhat it was, and I think that's even more ridiculous. We are professional binders and this is how we are making our living, and for our own organization to not consider that at all, I think, is--Well, I shouldn't get started on it. I think it was damaging to us. The show was lots of fun. It was very exciting. A lot of people came out for the opening.

Teiser: Ideally, would you have a museum show every year? Hiller: Oh, yes, defidtely. I think the first year that the Hand Book- binders of California started, it was Leah Wollenberg's idea to start it--she arranged the very first year with Warren Howell to have a show, which was marvelous. It couldn't have been better. To get started out with a show is very exciting. I think for the next couple of years it was just fine, but I think now--1'n no longer a member of it. I got angry over this show so I didn't-renew my membership. But I think now they should be moving toward something a little more prestigious, either a gallery or better still, one of the musuems, for the annual show, because there are so many people-- even book dealers have no idea that that show is on in Howell's window.

Teiser : It's hard to get publicity for it in a privately owned business.

Hiller: Yes, it is hard. That's an advantage, of course, of being in a gallery or being in a museum, that you are very liable to get not only a mention but a review, which is tremendously helpful. I'm speaking, of course, from the professional binders' point of view.

Teiser: It's hard to get articles about bookbinding into the newspapers.

Hiller : It probably is, but I: don't think it's impossible. Now, it was thanks to Janice that we got that large article in the Examiner about my show, with photographs, with descriptions of the bindings. It's not impossible.

Teiser: Is there any other group in another part of the United States that compares with this?

Hiller: I think in New York there is quite a good bookbinders' group. It's been a long time since I've been to New York, so I really don't know them. But I think there is quite a large group there and I think quite a lot of people teaching and a lot of students. But I am not personally familiar with it.

Teiser: What about the Guild of Book Workers?

Hiller.: I just joined it for the show, embarrassingly enough! [laughter] I haven't up to this point belonged to it.

Teiser : But they haven't been very active in the West before, have they?

Hiller : Not that I know of. They do send out a newsletter. They have sent out something that is very helpful, which is a list of teachers in the United States and some in Europe. That is fun to see and it's been useful for students to check up on. They do some things like that. As I say, I've just joined them, so I really don't know. But I do think they send out a list of suppliers,. things like that, which is helpful. A Binding Described

Teiser: Some of the people we have talked with we have asked to discuss a book they have bound. Do you have such a book on the premises?

Hiller: I don't have one that I like. I'm not sure that I've ever done one that I did like! [laughter] But maybe that's an occupational hazard! I have one that 'I: can show you. It's far from perfect, but it might be kind of interesting. [shows book] This is my own book. It's a very nice book. It's a La Vie des Betes.

Teiser: Can you describe in words the box that you've just taken it out of?

Hiller: It's in a chemise, which is this little wrap-around thing made in leather and paper. Then this whole chemise goes into a slip case. I think it's a strictly French method of protecting the book. With the chemise, the spine is also protected, where it wouldn't be in an ordinary slip case. It's used in place of a box. I think most of the English binders do boxes.

Teiser: This comes across the edges--

Hiller: It goes across the edges and then all the way around the spine of the book.

Teiser: Try to sayin words what it does on the front edge of the pages there.

Hiller: It just turns over the edge of the book board. So it doesn't quite meet at the fore edgeof the book, but it does come across. So it holds onto the board. Traditionally, the spine and the front edge are of the same leather as the book is bound in. Then you generally use the same decorative paper. This paper is done by Claude Delpierre in Paris. It's almost a square of what looks like ink washes done in browns in almost a pinkish-reddish cast--dark, a little yellow in it--a very handsome paper.

The leather is box calf, which is not used much in this country. It is used a lot in France. It's the leather that is used for shoes and handbags, so it's a little more durable than ordinary calf. It's not quite as fragile. It's also terribly hard to work with because moisture won't penetrate it. It's a handsome material. The book itself is bound in the same box calf. It has a design on the front cover in box calf onlay of oranges, reds, yellow, and gold tooling. The design is not mine. The design was done by a man named Gerry [Gerald] Urquhart who is from San Francisco. He is an artist and he d0es.a lot of my designs for me. Teiser: Do you often execute designs in your books that were done by others?

Hiller: Yes. I'm not an artist, so I've had Gerry do quite a number for me.

Teiser: This again is a French way of working, isn't it?

Hiller : Oh yes. And the spine is in gold only. The title is in gold in the side. The doublures are suede. The edges have been gilded. That I didn't do. I had it-done in Paris. The fore edge and the bottom are done in what is called "rough gilding," so that only the longer pages have gold on them. The shorter ones aren't touched at all. It's a very nice way of doing it. Of course, you don.'-t want to just chop your book off. You don't want to.have your book cropped. You want to leave the pages the length that they were, so the varying lengths are taken care of. The book itself I think is very lovely. It's not a terribly elaborate book, but it's a nice book. It's a numbered copy. It has, I think, very pretty illustrations.

Teiser: Do you have any idea how many hours went into this?

Hiller: No, I don't; I honestly don't. [pause] I couldn't even hazard a guess. The design took a long time. [laughs] But I just can't hazard a guess. I could be more specific on simpler books--oh, a Bradel binding should take you maybe three hours. A half-leather should take you maybe four or five hours. That is not paring your own leather.

Teiser: You don't use cords?

Hiller: They are sewn in, yes. It 's sawn-in cords, always. I never sew anything except a simple Bradel binding, which is rather-like a case binding. Peter Fahey and I believe a lot of the English binders will sew even a full leather book on tapes. I just don't think it makes a solid enough book. So I do use the cords always; very seldom do I have them raised, mainly flat backed.

Teiser: Again, this is French style, is it?

Hiller: The flat back? No, I think that is pretty common now with contemporary bindings. If you have raised cords, you don't have as much freedom in your design. You are almost caught in doing a much more traditonal design than if you have a flat back. A Look Into the 'Future

Teiser: I suppose we should ask you to conclude with a prognostication. Since the interest in bookbinding has changed so in the last seventeen years,. is it going to continue to change?

Hiller: I think so. I'm really very optiestic about all this. I think people are beginning to realize that there are binders in the United States who are the equal of the European binders, that it is being done here professionally. They can get their books done here. People -are beginning to be able to make a living doing this. A lot of people are interested'in doing it, and they are doing superb work, just very fine.

Teiser: Will there ever be an increased market, do you think?

Hiller: I hope so. I think people are getting more interested in book art. There has been over the years an increasing interest in very fine workmanship, craftsmanship. People are a little sick of the shoddy things that you can buy. So I think that the interest -is increasing and the whole thing really is quite exciting.

Teiser: I should ask you about this. There is an area in binding that is not, I suppose, quite fine binding but hand binding. That is for . books to be shelved and used, not as objects of art but as well- . bound books. Are there people who want it done? Should it be done here instead of going to England, where such work is often sent?

Hiller: Oh, I think it certainly should, yes indeed. There is a very good edition binder in San ~rancisco--~chuberth? It's part hand work, part machine work, and very fine work. Sure, I think that should defintely be done. There are a lot of things that you don't want- to spend either money or the time doing full leather, and yet you want to have the book protected. That is, after all, the real point of any binding is to protect a book, as much as we think the binding is the main thing. But I certainly think there should be binding at every level. I think there should be people who know how to bind copies of the National Geographic properly and who know how to protect a paperback, and all the way on up from. there. Well done binding that-is proper for the type-of bobk and the use the book is to be put. Sure, I am all for that. I think that very practical binding is very important.

Teiser: I wonder if some of the people who study fine binding will be able to turn their hands to this field.

* The Schuberth Bookbindery. Hiller: I haven't run across anybody who has done that yet. You get hooked on this sort of thing and it would be difficult. But it would be nice, I think, ifpossibly at some of the schools, that that sort of thing would be taught. It would be great,

Teiser: But as long as there is enough fine hand binding to be done--

Hiller: It is very exciting and the more people who do binding, the more work that comes in. So it's a nice situation, But it's still hard. These people who are starting out, they really have to go out and find work; work on it, work on getting clients. But is is getting better all the time, which is very nice indeed.

Teiser: Let me ask you one thing more. I see you have some very fine photographs of animals. Are they yours?

Hiller: Yes, I took those. I was in Alaska last year. They were taken at the McNeil River Bear Sanctuary which was a thrilling place. I am an animal lover. My other job'is working with a gorilla.

Teiser : I understand so. At Stanford?

Hiller: No, no, we have our own place. It is the Gorilla Foundation and we have our own facility in Woodside now. We have two gorillas, Koko and Michael. It started out as Penny Patterson's doctoral project at Stanford. She was teaching them American sign language. So it's been pretty exciting. But now, as I say, Penny has her doctorate. So we no longer have any connection with Stanford. We have our own place. So I go down three times a week and talk to my pal, Koko. [laughter]

Teiser: That's wonderful.

Hiller: It is thrilling when you realize that you are actually talking-- carrying on a conversation--with an entirely different species. It is incredibly exciting. Of course, she is full of charm!

Teiser: Does she have ideas?

Hiller: She suredoes! She has too many ideas. [laughter] It is very hard to keep up with her. She is terribly funny and she is just loaded with charm!

Teiser: Does she know about bookbinding?

Hiller: I told her about it, but she thinks it sounds pretty boring on the whole. [laughter] She has no tact whatsoever, no veneer of civilization. I said to her the other day, "What do you think is funny about me?" And she said, "Your nose." [laughter] Then she started calling me clown nose. Npw I've got a terrible complex! \ Teiser: That gives you a change of pace.

Hiller: It is a complete change of pace. So it is really refreshing to have the two things, to go back and forth. ~utthen again, I'm stuck with time.

Teiser: Well, we should let you go since you've given us to much of your time. It is very kind of you to talk with us. I: think we have a very good series of interviews, because it goes to the past and comes to the future that you have just spoken of.

Transcriber: Michelle Stafford Final Typist: Marie Herold TAPE GUIDE - Barbara Fallon Hiller

Date of Interview: February 5, 1981 tape 1, side A tape 1, side B tape 2, side A [side B not recorded]

APPENDICES

APPENDIX A

Octavia Holden: Letters Regarding Teaching Bookbinding at the California, School of Fine Arts (later the San Francisco Art Institute

This correspondence, several years earlier than the time when Mrs. Wollenberg studied with Miss Holden, adds to what little is known of Octavia Holden and her sister, Marion Holden Pope. Of special interest is Miss Holden's letter outlining the suggested course in bookbinding and her own qualifications. Although Lee F. Randolph's final letter in this series stated that there was "no opening at the present time for this course," she did conduct the course in her home later and for several years. Incomplete records at the San Francisco Art Institute indicated that she may have taught in 1932 and that she was listed as teaching in the academic years 1933-1934 and 1935-1936. /' I San Art Fi-ancisco Institute 800 Chest~lu:Street San Franciscc California, 94133 Telephone(415)771 7020

October 6, 1977

Mrs. Harold Moll enberg 180 Dorantes Ave. San Francisco CA 94116

Dear Mrs. Wol 1-enberg, Enclosed are photocopies of the material on Octavia Holden we discussed on the phone today. The paragraph I read you from the 1935-36 college catalog is as follows: BOOK BINDING. Aff i 1iated Studio. Books bound in leather, Portfolios, Forwarding and finishing in gold or blind tooling and mosaic. Tooled and modeled leather, coloring, lacing and finishing. I hope this information will be helpful to you. Sincerely, 3

Harry Mu1 ford, Archivist Anne Bremer Memorial Library San Francisco Art Institute

I79 . # Letter from Lee. P. Randolph, California. School of Pine Arts

. , 6. - . * ...... - , . . . . a.. G.. , ". ' ...... _-...... 2 ...... - . . ,...... : ...... , .....- . . - . . - . . . -. . _ ...... -...... , . . . -...... - . . -. . . . :_...... - ...... : . . . . .-...... - ...... - i; . . , -.. - n...... ,...... < ,_ . . . . - . . . . - ...... - .'..:- . ' . . . . . - :, ...... : .. . .,...... ,> , : , ' I- ...... , . .-- .... . ~e~ternberloth, 1929 ...... - ? .... ' ... a . , .. . . .- ...... a, . . . - . 2' : ...... - _. . .. . -. .. . ' . , . . . . .\ .. . 7 ...... r.....' ..-. . . . . KT*. :I:ari~nFolden Fope, 3948.J Street, ...... - .. Sacr~~ionto,Czlif. . . . .' . . , . . -. . . . *. .w;p dearas, Pbze : -, . - ...... - . . : . . . . '- ....- . . . .:. *..' .,. . . . ,.-' ,. . . -. -.- '. . .., . .-- .. - :... ,. I Just ir. recelit of qo2rlei:sr concenii.. your sister . . . and her desire to telk ?-.ith-.~e . Lz the ns~rfutEe. ... - . . L., . . ... ,'$...... - . . Rill yoz kinilly tell li~sSoolden t5st I rill be gl~dto nnke an q?oLntaent fo= rsy. C=rsCs.y, P~esdzy,or 'Ill,~rsCag afternoon froli 1 50 4:30.. Re Zeea is ea int;eres+,ir&- ...... " ' an& it 30 to ixto of - . - :-. one, rill &o hsrra 60 ;1.3csible *nnzys - .: ' oond~cti~ngsuch rs cotr?se. . . . , . .. -...... ' f bve hen& of $he eahibition $3 ~ncr:~qsktozs being

' '.. - deci8edly of >e';ter .;ti.crlitp, sro~irethe3 It 13 developfng, . cnU 1 ill t,zy to sind s~metkingfor next - .- .. , . . . gear. . - . . .- . .,...... -...... -...... , - .... * 1 aa dcligtted to 'hear that you fine? interesting nark to oocapy you in art mattcra in .-;zc--- a-ncnto. It is an int,crestirz torm. 1 ?asnod though thera 7ritls.g on the vrq to TLake Tahoe...... With best rcnembrnnces, md th:;n:ting you fcr :your letter, - - . . ., - . .; ...... I an,. . ,' ...... -'.: ". ., . :...... , ' . G . - ...... * . .. - . . , . . . -. _.. - . .:.: . . .. . : . . . . .; -.. - ~lnce'ze?yyodr~, - ...... I ...... -...... -...... * -.. . . . - . ,',. , 2082 JACKSONSTREET Sept. 12, 1929.

¶AN FRANCISCO

Xr. Lee F. Randolph, California School of Fine Arts, San Francisco, Cptlif. !Jy dear Kr. Randolph:. I :iy sister ::Ir's.. Pop8 has.sent me your letter of September 10th. I I I should like 'very much t.o make an spgoint- ment with you for Xonday, Septexber lGth at your office at four o'clock to talk over . plans for con6ucting a course of Sookbind- ing at your school. 1 Sincerely yours,. I I - I Galnut 5531. *" 2882 Jackson Street, San Francisco, Csl . . - . . ' October 7, -1929.

- # .. .i .- .. -.., ... - ... . - - . - . - --

?5y dear 3. Randolpt: - ' . I:ay I surgest the f ollonidg reasons for the estsblishn~entof a course in ijookbinding in the California School of Fine Arts, Ssn Francisco? In suggesting such a course I have in mind the following points : 1. Such a departnent would, enric3 your curriculum fro --.the artistic si'de. The caucse in Eistoric Ornanent and Design and the training in color cor?binations could be broug3t into practical use in the mosaic zork and tooling of b2ok cove~s.. . . 11. npro:: the Scholastic side the love of books would be cultivated and a student could begin to f orn a nucleus of s small private libeary. 111. From the Trscticsl side your om school library could be kept in order by constant ~endixgand re-binding when needed and a large SULT!of money coulC be ssved ir Bins- ing magazines of all descrip tions. Those students tsk- irg the library course. in the University of California could have a prscticsl training in libram aendi~gof bool.:s and rs-binding. . . ._'.. .. 1V. Xanusc~ipts'andmais ccx~ldbe taken care of by either counting or nslcing cases or portfolios for their ,. ,preservstion. TI:. A course of this kin2 coule be esti -ated es ?-oms: -7iblne kours a aeek f.or ten weeks with an output of $4.09 for esch gugil includEng all mterisls (tteg morkiog on tkeir om b2oks). Then for .nore adv~ncced stu6en.t~w'zo take furt:-,er work and Tore finishing, t3e cost mould Ee~endon tke amount cf golC lesf the~voe and t3e more ex.;e.-:sive iiznorted lea ti:ers. . . EQUIP:.ENT I have in rrry possession a good plant for binding of all descriptions including presses, cutters, rulers, hamners etc., .as vcell as a large sssortieent of finishing tools. This would suffice for a clsss of ten to twelve students. The equipnent could be enlarged from tine to ti:ne when the class increased in nu!nbers, SPACE A room of kpproximtely twenty feet square 'witha few large tables and =all shelving sgace rv-ould be sufficient for the iiorking plant, I have alrea&y a number .of pupils living in San Francisco ~:?.I.lowould be glad of tke ooportunity to join suck a clsss in the Calif- ornia 3~2001of Fine Arts, . . '-7...... PUBLIC IT^' k the way of gublicity, I zould further rug- gest tizat a card from the school be sent out announcing the establis-hant of such a course. . - ... :lytrain1bg and experience hag been the fol- - lowing: ?upil of ?rofessor Domont and .I,eon Gmel, Paris, 5 years; Teacher and 3i~derin San Francisco, 6 ':. years; C2srter :.:exber of t?.e Sook Borkers Guildy Sea York. First ?resident. of the Guild of Arts snd Crsf ts ,

' Ssn Francisco. Trscti~~llibrary morlc as Assistant Librai-ian, ?a10 Alto, 2 years. Instructor in Eookbinding snd Leather .;ark, Ca1ifo::nLa School of arts and Crsf ts 1924 to date, including six Su,nger Sessions. The above is respectfully sub~ittedfor tke further consideration of yourst51f and your associates. . . .> . .. . . Sincerely yours, Letter from Lee F. Randoloh, California School of Fine Arts

Ootober 15th. 1929. -. ..

xis* Ootsvia Holden, 2882 Jackson Street, .SeaR-encisco. . I@ deer Eias Bolden:- .. . .. - Tbia is to aclulouleUge receipt of your letter ~iththe outline of a 2oesible tourse in bookbinding. I shall pat it on file for future reference. - There is no opening at the present tine for this' course and it is uncertain when re mlght consider It in the fiture. With best wishes, 1 i -. I. Siaaerely youra, .- 8 *. . - . . . _- -. .:...... __.. .- ' ...... - .. ..--, .' ...... - -.. .. -- . . . . , .. . - ^ . . . _ .. - - - ...... 3 . . -. . Director of the School ...... - . . APPENDIX B Hazel Dreis: A Memorandum from Maggie Harrison in Response to an Inquiry from Stephen Gale Herrick.

In February, 1932 Mike and I went to the Dalzell Hatfield Art Gallery in Palm S~rings,California to see our friends, Ruth and Dal Hatfield. They had an exhibrt of hand bookbindings by Hazel Dreis. The bindings were quite wonderful and we went to the Gallery several more times to see them. The Hatfields had a ''winter gallery1' in Palm Springs for a number of years. Their main Gallery was and is in the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles.

Mike and I were married in,March, 1932 and went to Santa Fe, New Mexico to live as.Mike began his service with the Indian Bureau there. In June, 1934 one of our friends, Edward McLean, phoned to invite us ta his and his sister's house for a party to meet Hazel Dreis. We accepted with pleasure of being able to meet the person who did such wonderful bookbinding.

Edward McLean had gone to San Francisco to visit Chester ( Gavin) Arthur and the two of them had gone to Arthur's place at Moymel (sp?) in San Luis Obispo Coucty, :.vhere Edward met Hazel Dreis in Arroyo Grande. Edward, later, went to Hazel's in Arroyo Grande to study hand bookbinding.

- Vie went to Ed's and Jane's party for Hazel. We were inpressed by Hazel. she was in Santa Fe to have anK exhibit of her bindings at La Fonda; then, go to Albuquerque to lecture at bhe University. Hazel was in Santa Fe . for about two weeks and we saw her often and had her over to our house a number of tiaes. One evening at our house Hazel said that she wished we lived in California because she thought I could becone a bookbinder and she .would like to teach me. I was knitting at 'hbe time, and she said that I had the flexible hands and fingers and seemed to use them as a craftsman., should; and with Mike's library I would always have plenty of work to do. I said that I might learn to bind a book, but could never create a cover since I was not an artist. At that point, Hazel declared that she was tired of amselect f ewRmaking most people feel that they were not creative,&-A that only aKselect fewnwere ahih artists . Hazel's view was that everyone was creative; cooking a meal, typing a letter, writing music, painting a picture, painting a sign, presenting a lecture, etc., etc.

Two months later, Mike was transferred to Sacramento, California by the Indian Bureau and had to travel all over the Stake. Hazel wrote me that this would be the tine for me to come to Arroyo Grande for two weeks. In that time she would know if she were right or wrong about my becoming a hand bookbinder. In about a week, Hazel asked me to plan to study with her. I spent a year and a half studying with Hazel.

I leaned a great deal from Hazel, - - about bookbinging, Hazel, and people and many other things.

Hazel Swanson was born hn Minnesota in a small city. Her father had a newspaper. She had a bwother, ~aul,an+ sister, Gwen. Hazel was born in the 1890's. Sather than play with dolls, she spent her time in the newspaper office and shop and played with type. Some time later, when she was a young wouan, she went to San ~rsisco,California. Hazel worked for the Hearst Nev~spaperthere. I do not know any specific dates of anything before I went to Arroyo Grande. Hazel was married three times. She had a daughter, i,iary, by her first husband; and a daughter, Tinka, by her third husband, Edward Dreis . When Hazel decided she wanted to become a hand bookbinder, she went to Paris for a year to learn the French method. Then she went to England and served a four year apprentinceshig with Law~enceDecoverly.* Hazel was made a member of the English Boolcbindersl Guild and a Master English Binder. Being a Master Binder tells more of her craftsmanship than I could ever tell.

After becoming a Piaster Binder, Hazel returned to San Francisco and set-up her bookbinding shop. Hazel said that Templeton Crocker was her "angel". He helped so nany artists and craftsmen and he had Hazel bind many of his books and sent his friends to Hazel. Hazel had a successful shop. Anmug In addition to indivual bindings, Hazel hand bound the entire edition of eaves of Grass, printed by the Grabhorn Press; and Taos, also printed by the Grabhorn Press.

. In the early 30's Hazel moved her shop from Sari$ Francisco to Arroyo Grande in San Luis Obispo County. Later, she moved the Santa Monica. From Santa Monica, Hazel became the bookbinder for the Folger Shakespeare- Library in Washington, D. C.. After working at Folger, she set-up-shop in Santa Fe, New Mexico for a few years. Then, Hazel moved to Pacific Grove, California.

I believe that declining health caused her to move to Pacific Grove. Although Hazel worked on bindings until her death in 1963. (I believe she died in 1963).

To me, Hazel was a great person as well as a Master Binder. She had very high moral standards, she minced no words so that you always knew where she stood on any subject. She felt that no binding she ever did belonged to her, it would always belong to the author. She had a binding stolen fb~mone of her exhibits, a copy of the Scarlet Letter. Hazel's reaction was thzit the thief could not help it, he had to have that book. Hazel said that she would never do her finest binding; she was never satisfied that her current binding was her best. I am certain that a number of people influenced Hazel's life; and, I know some whom she admired and respected. I hope that I have given you the information you want, - with what you may get from others - so that you can do a good article about Hazel. Mike will give this to you next Tuesday.

Sincerely,

*Correctly de Coverley [Ed.] Things that I forgot to mention before:

Hazel felt that the English method of hand binding was superior to the French or German methods, - functionally and structurally. Hazel felt that the hand binder should always complement the author AND the printer with a suitable binding. Hazel would trim the head of a book and the fore-edges, - - - if she had to gild then. Otherwise, she would never touch the page margins a printer had designed,or given.

Hazel lost a number of- commissions to do bindings because she refused to trim heads or fore-edges, and would never skip or alter any forwarding process or step. Her standards were the highest and she would never comp~omise. Before we met Hazel, she had had some sort of disagreement with Ed and Bob Grabhorn. I never knew the reason or the disagreement - - just that she would not work with them again . But, she always said that they were the finest printers she knew about. INDEX - THE HAND BOOKBINDING TRADITION IN THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA

Adler, Rose, 4, 91 Allen, Dorothy, 11, 18, 90 Allen, Lewis, 11, 18, 90 Allen Press, 108, 140-143, 156

American Institute of Conservation ' of Historical and Artistic Works, 29 Angelo, Valenti, 142-144 "Les Architectes du Livre" (exhibit), 93 Arthur, Chester (Gavin), 184 ' "The Artisan and the Book" (exhibition), 166

Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley, 85, 87, 89, 104, 111, 113, 119, 122, 131 Friends of The Bancroft Library, 77, 101, 122 Banks, Paul, 61 , Barlow, William P., 91 Bataillel, Lise L., 78 Beck, Betty Lou. -See Chaika, Betty Lou Beck Bellefroid, Micheline de, 24 Bender, Albert, 83, 86 Berenson, Bernard, 57 Biblioteca Nazionale, Florence, 57-58, 61 Boettger, Helen Louise, 78, 85-86 Bohemian Club, 88 Bonet, Paul, 37, 89 Book Club of California, 1, 4, 77, 85, 90, 101, 105, 110, 131, . Quarterly Newsletter, 77 book repairing, 67 book restoration, 40-41, 43-47, 49-69, 73-75, 96-99, 138, 151 Bookbinders' Guild of California, 10, 15 Borgeson, Ingeborg, 11 Borghese, Susanna, 130 Bradel binding, 170 Bray, Stanley, 139 British (Museum) Library, 45, 59, 81, 117, 126, 135 Brown, Donald, 70, 87, 121, 140-143, 165 Bruckman, Robert, 18, 90, 151 Cains, Anthony, 60, 62, 75 Cal Central Press, 132 California Palace of the Legion of Honor, 117 California School of Arts and Crafts, 182 California School of Fine Arts, 30, 179, 183 Candau, Eugenie, 24, 126-127 Capricornus, 66, 138 Carlson, Lage, 97-98, 123, 136, 138 Casey, Sheila, 9, 20, 35, 68, 84, 98, 120 Chaika, Betty Lou Beck, 22, 27, 71, 73, 97-98, 137-138, 161-163 Clarkson, Chris, 60 Cockerell, Douglas, 81, 143 Cockerell, Sidney, 43 Coldia University, 36 codssioned bookbindings, 9-10 Codttee to Rescue Italian Art, 61 Cottage Book Shop, San Rafael, 29, 35 Creech, Mrs., 7 Crocker, Templeton, 185 Crosby, Drew H., 70

Dalzell Hatfield Art Gallery, Palm Springs, California, 184 de Coverley, Lawrence, 185 Delpierre, ~laude, 160, 169 Designer Bookbinders, 1, 25, 29, 101, 126, 129, 138 Diehl, Edith, 12, 67-68, 83 Docili, Peter, 91 Dohrmann, Mrs. A.B.C., 3, 7, 31, 69, 90 Dohrmann, Phoebe (Mrs. Robert), 3, 7 Domont, Professor, 182 Dreis, Edward, 184 Dreis, Hazel Swanson, 12, 20, 97-98, 184-186 Dreis, Tinka, 184 Dreneau, Constant, 151 Drummond, Catherine, 42-43, 46 Dupont, Florence, 24, 164

Eddington Bindery, 118 Eddy, Nell, 64 Elder, Paul, 10, 29, 115 Enges, Ralph, 90 English Bookbinders1 Guild, 185 English bookbinding tradition, 5-6, 39, 108, 152, 162, 170, 186 Etherington, Donald, 25 Evetts, Deborah M., i-iii exhibitioris of bookbinding, 11-14, 19, 24-25, 48-49, 70, 72-73, 78-79, 84-85, 87, 88, 90, 93, 95, 117-118, 120, 122, 126-134, 136, 158, 165-168 Fachg, Jules, 41, 151 Fahey, [Edna] Peter (Mrs. Herbert), ii-iii, iv, 1, 4, 7, 9, 11-23, 26, 29, 32, 34-39, 46-48, 50, 55, 67-72, 77-84, 86, 88-94, 98, 101, 104-112, 121, 140-141, 144, 147, 149-152, 155, 162, 165, 170 Fahey, Herbert, 4, 14, 16, 21, 26, 32, 34-37, 47, 50, 55, 81-85, 89, 91, 98, 105-106 Falkenstein, Claire, 39, 50 Ferny, Lady, 118 Nne ~rints~,145 Florence flood, 56-63, 96 Folger Shakespeare Library, Washington, D.C., 185 French, William, 88, 102-104, 109, 112, 123 French bookbinding tradition, 3-6, 17, 24, 36-38, 89-90, 93, 108-109, 152-153, 162 Friends of The Bancroft Library, 77, 101, 122 Futernick, Robert, 127

Gallier, Louis, 151 Gallo, , 43-44 Gane Brothers , 119 Gardner, Anthony, 43 Gerbode, Frank, 7 Gerbode, Martha (AleGder) , 3, 7 Gerlach, Gerhard, 36, 71, 88 Gerlach, Kathryn, 36, 71 German bookbinding tradition, 152, 162 Getty, Paul, 10, 93-94 Gilmre, Myron P., 57 Glaister, Donald, 22, 68, 97-98, 127, 137-138, 157-159, 162 Gleeson Library Associates, 1, 84, 101, 144 Golden Gate International Exposition, 7, 11-12, 19, 48, 77, 78-79, 82, 90-92 . Goldschmid, Johanna, 120, 126, 129,. 136, 163 Gorilla Foundation, 147, 172 Grabhorn, Edwin, 15, 91, 96-97, 186 Grabhorn, Jane, 11, 90-91 Grabhorn, Robert, 11, 15, 91, 186 Grabhorn Press, 85, 90-91, 96-97, 105, 141-142, 149, 156-157, 185 Green, Harry, 18, 149, 160 Greenhill, Elizabeth, 59 Gregynog Press, 143 Grover, Sherwood, 138 Gruel, Leon, 182 Guild of Arts and Crafts, San Francisco, 182 Guild of Book Workers, New York, 25, 29, 101, 114-115, 118, 129-130, 134, 140, 166, 168, 182 Guild of Bookworkers Journal, 1, 7, 115, 134

Gunst, Morgan,- - 11, 26,--- 70, 83, 92-93 ~unst,Morgan, collection, -stafford University, 14, 21, 26, 83, 93, 135 Hand Bookbinders of California, 1, 18, 23-24, 29, 66, 72, 77, 94, 101, 106, 113-120, 126-127, 132, 166-168 "Hand Bookbinding Today" (exhibition), 24, 72, 101, 117, 126-134 Hansen-Upsher , Brian, 162 Hanser-Upsher, Ilse, 161 Harada, Walter, 92 Harrison, Margaret (Mrs. Michael), 20, 97-98, 184-186 Harrison, Michael, 20, 97, 184 Harrison, Thomas, 81 Hart, James D., 122 Hatfield, Dal, 184 Hatfield, Ruth, 184 Hearst, Phoebe Apperson (Mrs. George), 11, 115 Heller, Elinor, 26, 89, 95 Herrick, Anson, 70-71, 88, 103-105, 123 Herrick, Marion (Mrs. Stephen Gale), 110-111, 145 Herrick, Stephen Gale, i-ii, iv, 13, 24, 26, 69-70, 72, 91, 95-96, 101-145, 158, 162, 184 Hesthal, Eleanor, 9, lls12, 35, 47-48, 82, 84, 87, 90, 104, 144 High House Press, 145 Hiller, Barbara Fallon, i-ii, 15, 20, 22, 24-25, 35, 50, 66-68, 97-98, 103, 108, 110, 112, 121, 137, 147-173 Hinstein, Jacqueline, 41 Holden, Octavia, ii-iii, iv, 1-4, 8, 10-11, 22, 29, 30-31, 34, 81, 115, 119, 176-183 Hopkins, Henry, 126 Horton, Carolyn, 103, 130 Howell, Warren, 10, 13-14, 70, 93-94, 113, 115, 123, 134, 136, 168 Howell, John, Books, 134-136, 141 Hoyem, Andrew, 98

1,nstitute of Paper Conservation (London), 29, 75 International Institute of Conservation of Historical and Artistic Works, 29

Jensen, Haakon, 90

Kahle, Ann, 22, 66, 96, 138 Kahle, Theo, 22, 66, 96, 138 Kala Institute, 27 Kelman, Donald, 64 Kennedy, Lawton, 21 Keyes, Kayko, 75 Knerr, Elizabeth, 103 Koko, 172 . Lada-Mocarski, Polly, 129 Lakeshore Press, 54 Lecky, Eleazer, 71 Lecky, Margaret (Mrs. Eleazer), 13, 71 Liebes, Dorothy, 4 Lubett, Denise, 25 Lucas, Robert, 19, 22, 67, 96 Lundborg, Irving, 115

McLean, Edward, 184 McLean, Jane (Mrs. Edward) , 184 McNee, Peggy, 103 Magee, David, 86, 90-91, Maggs, Brian, 123 Maggs Brothers, 123 tfanganelli, Franka, 43 Mardersteig, Giovanni, 86 "Maril," 95, 119 Mayall, Edwin, 10, 96, 114 Mayall, Mrs. Edwin, 26 Menna , Signorina , 44-45 Middleton, Bernard, 25, 49, 60 Miller, Joann, 68, 162 Mills College Library, 11, 71, 83, 86, 98, 137, 149 "Idodern Hand Bookbinding1' (exhibition) , Bancro f t Library, 85, 87, 89, 104, 113, 119 Moller , Ernestine E. , 7 Morin-Pons, M., 81 Mulford, Harry, 176 Museum West, 70, 87-88 Muzzioli, Professor 9 43

Nash, John Henry, 90, 124, 142 National Endowment for the Arts, 131 Nelson Gallery, Kansas City, 128, 134 Newbegin, John T., 10, 29 Newberry Library, Chicago, 61 New York Public Library, Spencer Collection, 14, 21, 84 Neylan, Jane, 11, 91 Neylan, John Francis, 91 Nicholson, William, 144 Nicole, Maurice, 150-151 Nisley-Leader, Sandy, 164 Nixon, Howard M., 59 Novack, Frank, 119-120, 131 Oakland Museum, 115 Oka, Iwataro, 64 Olmsted, Duncan, i-ii, 10, 20, 26, 67, 77-99, 117, 119, 127, 131, 150-151, 157

Pacific Center for the Book Arts, 27, 163 paper, 63-64 Parish, Charles, 116 Parish, Mrs. Charles, 116 Patalogica del Libro, 40, 45 Patri, Giacomo, 29, 30-31, 33-34 Patri, Piero, 33-34 Patri, Ramo, 33 Patri, Stella, i-ii, 29-75, 88, 96, 98, 120, 127, 133, 150-151, 155, 162, 165 Patri, Tito, 33 Patterson, Pe~y,172 Patterson and Hall, 35 Patton, Julia, 71, 88 Petaluma Argus Courier, 77 Piper, Julie, 164 Pope, Marian Holden, 31, 177, 178-179 Powell, Rita, 44, 58 Powell, Roger, 43, 57-58

Ramsey, Eleanore, 22, 154, 157, 159-160,-162, 165 Randolph, Lee F., 177, 179-181 Reis, Carol Y., 72, 88, 151, Rivisre & Son, 45, 143 Roxburghe Club, 77, 93

Sack, Jeannie, 138, 157, 160-161 San Francisco Art Institute, 2 San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, 24, 126-128, 130-132 San Francisco State University, 18, 149 Sangorsky and Sutcliffe, 139 Schaef fer, Rudolph, 91 Schopfer, Janice, 27, 161, 163, 166 Schuberth Bookbindery, 171 Sidders, Mr. , 45-46 Smith, Philip, 6, 25, 70, 86-87, 94-95, 119, 123, 126, 134 Society of Archivists, 75 Speck, Ann, 25 Speck, Reinhard Staniford, 25 Stanford University, 130-131, 135-136 Associates of the Stanford University Libraries, 101, 131, Library, 159 See Also Gunst, Morgan, collection Stauffacher, Jack, 131-132 Stopple, Lois, 72, 88 Strouse, Charlotte (Mrs. Norman), 26, 114 Strouse, Norman, 10, 26, 113 Sunerk, Nezahat, 45

TALAS, 119 Tapi6, Michel, 39 Tomassini, Camenina, 46, 52, 56 tools and equipment, 8, 15, 27-28, 34, 69, 90, 91, 109, 111-112, 118-119, 142, 160 Treasure Island. See Golden Gate International Exposition Tribolg, Harold, 54

University of California, 59, 61 at Davis, 20 Library, 136 at San Francisco, Medical Center, 52, 120 Medical Library, 46 University of San Francisco. -See Gleeson Library Associates Urquhart, Gerald, 169-170

Walter, Florence (Mrs. John I.), 7, 24-25, 37, 46, 69, 71, 83, 88-90, 93, 117, 131 Walter, John I., 71, 90 Waters, Peter, 43, 61-62, 75 Waters, Sheila, 43 Watson, Mrs. Ilouglas, 7 Watters, Byron, 15-16, 90 Wayzgoose Symposium, 27 Webster, Grace Margaret, 72 Wheeler, William, 97 Wiemeler, Ignatz, 4, 17, 36, 81 Wilson, Susan Spring, 25, 127 Windle, John, 91 Wollenberg, Harold, iv, 3, 8-9, 13-15, 23, 72, 116, 127 Wollenberg, Leah Levy, i-ii, iv, 1-28, 31, 35, 47, 67, 72, 104, 114-116, 118, 120, 134, 150-151, 155, 168, 176 Yale Press, 143 Yeazell, Jennie, 61 Young, Belle McMurtry, ii-iii, ivy 1-4, 7-8, 12, 16-18, 21-22, 26, 32, 47, 69, 79-80, 83, 88-91, 93-95, 118 Young, Laura, 103 Young, William R.K., 3-4

Zellerbach, J.D., 91-92 Zinn, Nancy, 120, 127 ' Catherine Harroun

Born, St. Joseph, Missouri. Educated in Pasadena, California; Carlsbad, New Mexico; Stanford University, B.A. in English. In San Francisco since 1930 as advertising copywriter, Wells Fargo Bank; curator and researcher, Wells Fargo History Room. Newspaper and magazine writer since 1950.

Ruth Teiser

Grew up in Portland, Oregon; came to the Bay Area in 1932 and has lived here ever since. Stanford, B.A., M.A. in English, further graduate work in Western history. Newspaper and magazine writer in San Francisco since 1943, writing on local history and economic. and business life of the Bay Area. Book reviewer for the San Francisco Chronicle since 1943. As correspondent for national and western graphic arts magazines for more than a decade, came to know the printing community.