NATIONAL LIFE STORIES CITY LIVES Hermann Abs Interviewed By

NATIONAL LIFE STORIES

CITY LIVES

Hermann Abs

Interviewed by Cathy Courtney

C409/040

This interview and transcript is accessible via http://sounds.bl.uk.

Oral History The British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB United Kingdom

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BRITISH LIBRARY

NATIONAL LIFE STORIES

INTERVIEW SUMMARY SHEET ______

Ref. No.: C409/040 Playback Nos: F529-F530 ______

Collection title: City Lives ______

Interviewee's surname: Abs Title: Mr

Interviewee's forenames: Hermann

Date of birth: 15 October 1901 Sex: Male ______

Dates of recording: 11 July 1990

Location of interview: Deutsche Bank AG, Germany

Name of interviewer: Cathy Courtney

Type of recorder: Marantz CP430

Total no. of tapes: 2 Speed: -

Type of tape: cassette Noise reduction: dbx

Mono or stereo: stereo Original or copy: Original ______

Additional material: None ______

http://sounds.bl.uk HermannAbs C409/040/01 F529A Page 1

F529 Side A n" July 1990. Herr Abs •office at the Deutsche Bank in Frankfurt.

Your background. did you comefrom a bankingfamily?

I did not come from a banker family. My father was a lawyer, in the city of Bonn, which now, temporarily at least, is the capital of the Federal Republic of Germany. And he was specialising at the older age in advising not only family estates, agriculture property, but also, in his small area around Bonn, industrial companies. And I started apprenticeship in a small provincial bank, in 1920, which is now 70 years ago, and after completing, in a very short study at the university, for family reasons, I again joined a banking group as employee, which was the group of Delbruck Schickler and Company in Berlin, with a sister company in Cologne, and a joint venture in Amsterdam.

Did you have contacts in the banking world?

At that, no, no, no, I didn't. I didn't. I learned about it in, from my father, but he was only a customer of a bank, that was all. And I left Germany in 1922, and joined the family affiliation in Amsterdam, as foreign exchange dealer, so I was foreign exchange dealer, '22, '23, '24, in a very speculative time. Amsterdam was the only free foreign exchange market in Europe, as all other markets either didn't exist any longer, or haven't started yet, and were suffering under governmental regulations. United States hadn't found out yet what foreign exchange transaction meant, with the exception of pounds sterling and dollar, arbitration between New York and London. But that was more or less an exception, because they learned about banking only during and after the war, 1914-18, or for the United States, 1916. '48. Therefore London was most important market, but suffering, as I said already, under certain governmental restrictions, and the exchange dealers in London very often were Swiss origin, but also British, and developed a market again in the Twenties, which I accompanied as a foreign exchange dealer in Amsterdam, by my own experience between London and Continental Europe places. Hermann Abs C409/040101 F529A Page 2

When did you first go to the City of London?

First I went to the City of London in February 1925.

Can you tell me what your impressions were?

I was very much interested, and I planned to get back there. No, I just have to ...no, not '25, not '25. It was '24, '24. '24. Because '25 I already came more repeatedly to London, and I came to London and stayed as a stagiaire with the branch of Guaranty Trust, 32 Lombard Street. So that is, I don't know, 65 years ago.

What was the building like then?

The building was the same as it was a long time after the war, and at that time, the head of the establishment, a branch of Guaranty Trust, was a Mr Shortis. I believe he also came originally from Kleinwort, if I'm not mistaken. And I was there in the Documentary Reimbursement Credit Department, which was still very important in London, for the home market, internationally as well. And I had no opportunity to learn about it in Amsterdam, or even in Germany, who was struck by an inflation and a more home market than international market, with the exception of Hamburg, Bremen and Hamburg; Bremen important for cotton importers, and Hamburg for general line of export and imports, and it still had a very close contact, immediately after the war, I would say ever since the monetary reform in Germany in 1923, which I had already experienced in my experience as foreign exchange dealer in Amsterdam.

So what did you learn by the work you were doing in London?

I learned about how to handle documentary credit, reimbursement credits, with the opening of acceptance credit, these credits in favour of importers or exporters. One had to be paid by the definite placement of the goods so imported in London, or in European market, or the exporter waited for the proceeds to come in from the exports. In the meantime, financed by British, especially by the British acceptance houses market, which did include a great number of private bankers, but also the huge five big joint stock banks, which was the Midland and the Westminster, National HermannAbs C409/040101 F529A Page 3

Provincial, Lloyds and Barclays, they're the five important joint stock banks, who had also commercial department and themselves, were also members on a sideline of the London Accepting Houses Committee, which was mainly organised, this committee, by the private acceptance houses. One of them was Kleinwort. There was Schroder, there was very important, Hambros, Lazards, and a number of other houses, about 20, 30 houses, some of them very small, who turned out to have closed liens from before 1914, especially with Hamburg bankers. And then could mention Goschen and Cunliffe, or Japhet was one of the houses. Old Mr Japhet turned to be 92 before he died.

Did you know him?

I knew him, yes. And he was waiting that Germany would come back to, to repay the loans outstanding in London. And he, at least, he outlived the crisis, which struck a great number of small acceptance houses in London, and there was a certain assistance, governed by the Bank of England, then, under Sir Norman, one of the great figures of the Bank of England, when they still had more independence. Then after his death, it became more and more, at least officially, dependent on the Treasury, more than it was before, but still governed by the personalities of the Governor of the Bank of England, also.

Did you know the Governor of the Bank of England?

I did know the Governor already at that time, Norman, I learned, I made my acquaintance. But later on, even better, like Earl of Cromer, who was a Baring, I hadn't mentioned him a moment ago, a very important house, after survived their famous crisis of 1891, I believe. And Earl of Cromer, or O'Brien, was a famous Governor. For a long time it was, what was his name? He came from Schroders. He's now, he's still alive, he's Lord now. Was before Cato. Just a moment, I believe, he was even before Norman, wasn't he?

I think he was there after the war, wasn't he?

Immediately after the war? Which war? HermannAbs C409/040101 F529A Page 4

The Second, I think,' I may be wrong.

No, you may be right. Then it was, yes, then he was the successor of Norman, wasn't he? But Norman, when he died Norman? I don't know.

What was Norman like?

Very internationally known as an independent figure, believing in the British Commonwealth Empire, and the power of United Kingdom. And he was critical about Continental Europe, but at the same time, helpful.

What was his criticism?

Criticism about this unrest in Europe. This relationship of, over centuries, lasting, the relationship between France and Germany, fighting wars, since Louis XIV, Louis XV, conquering provinces in Germany, and the revenge in the Napoleon time, when Napoleon made kings out of archdukes in Germany, the King of Bavaria, the King of Wurttemberg, King of Westphalia, they were all creations of Napoleon. And after he made the big error to start a war with Russia, and it's amusing, ifI may use this word in connection with beginning of a war, he started on the very same day did Hitler start in 1941, in June '41, which was the very same day as Napoleon. Both had the same end of the war, and lost. And then again, it was the peace brought about in the Vienna Peace Conference, wherefore France, I believe, just a moment, in a symbolic ...great experienced politician of the post-1915[??] Napoleon period, I get to his name in a moment, and in Vienna, Prince Metternich, who was very important, to bring about a certain peaceful development in, in, in Europe. What I did say was the critical attitude of Norman, but at the same time, he had to protect the liquidity of the banks. The big joint stock banks at that time were not dependent, but acceptance houses more or less to different extent, especially when Germany, Germany stopped transfer and payments on credits outstanding, and also on loans. And that happened in 1931. At that time, at that time, Norman was Governor of the Bank of England. And it arranged and supported the acceptance houses by introducing a sort of Standstill

Agreement, that the debtors in Germany had to renew every six, every year, a renewal Hermann Abs C409/040/01 FS29A Page 5 of the Standstill Agreement, and which made the acceptances of the London acceptance houses as eligible collateral, or even for re-discount with the Bank of England, or to be used as collateral for the Union Discount and the National Discount, big discount houses, in the City of London, to put bills of acceptance houses in the market, because they were covered by a Standstill Agreement, which means extension of credit maturity, and certain methods of how to handle this. And there were still credits outstanding at the end of 19, at the war, 1945, and it had to be negotiated in the so-called German Debt Settlement, which was negotiated in London, '51, '52, '53. And I happened to be, in the meantime, gaining experience, not only in the Foreign Exchange, but in Foreign Credit Department. A lot of foreign experience. I was head of the German delegation for the negotiation of the London Debt Agreement, and there I had a support by, by the British, by the British Acceptance Houses Committee, and the head of it was Frank Tiarks, a senior partner of Schroder, next to the old Bruno Schroder, who was, Bruno Schroder, I knew the grandfather Schroder very well, he had the Parkinson's illness, and he thought to find reliefin a German hospital, and I remember him very well .. And his son's Bruno Schroder, and now there is a, a granddaughter, Madelaine, married to a Mallinckrodt, who is now the senior of Schroder, just to give an example.

What was the first Bruno Schroder like, the grandfather?

He believed in Germany, and he was the first one, in 1924, to go to Hamburg and extend credits, similar like Gianini[ph] did after the earthquake in San Francisco, with a wheel car, he went to see the shopkeepers and extended cash credits. He gave acceptance credits, because he believed in the future of Germany.

Was that very important, psychologically, to Germany?

Surely, very important. And he found people who joined him, certainly Nick Schroder of Kleinwort, or houses, Baring, rather hesitantly. But you remember that even a partner of Baring was once Governor of the Bank of England, Earl of Cromer, later. And all the acceptance houses, the joint stock banks, but a bit later, but in '25, when a certain stability of after monetary reform in Germany seemed to predict a future of a healthier situation, and thought Germany was creditworthy. But at that HermannAbs C409/040/01 FS29A Page 6 time, Germany had to produce a huge amount for reparations, which the largest percentage of which went to France, who had suffered during the war, '14-18, more than anybody else. Also countries had suffered as well, like Belgium, which was invaded by Germany, in no respect for the neutrality, which was also guaranteed by Germany, And that was the reason for United Kingdom, leading up to its guarantee to declare war on Germany on 4th August, 1914. They did the same thing when Germany invaded, under Hitler, Poland, which had also a guarantee, also guaranteed jointly by United Kingdom. And that was enough to live up to its guarantee, in spite of the heavy armaments of Hitler. United Kingdom declared war on Germany.

When you were in London in the Twenties, was there any difficulty because of the war, and the build-up to the Second War? Were you treated with quite a lot of openness?

First of all I came from Holland, a Dutch joint venture, German-Dutch, an old family who originally lived in Antwerp, with their commercial, based especially on the financing and importation of wool, Argentine, Uruguay, but also from Australia, and it was a wool merchant, and joined a partner of DelbrUck, to put up a bank, and he emigrated from Cologne to Holland in the winter of '22/23, and he asked me, when I was an employee of his Cologne branch of DelbrUck Schickler, to come with him to Holland, so I came to Holland. And therefore, coming from Holland, who had already credit relation with all the acceptance houses, or a great number of acceptance houses, I was not facing the same hesitation as a German who came from Berlin. I remember my later partner, Artur DelbrUck, who was then a stagiaire, I believe at Schroders, ifI'm not mistaken, but not even a share was offered to him. He went from one department, have a look at it, what is London acceptance house like? And so, so he wasn't welcome, in spite of an old pre-war relationship, this reservation of British to, to be, or to become again, on friendly terms with German, took a long, if at all, a long, a long period of, a long period of time. I remember various occasions, I personally had not the same difficulty, I would say, which helped me in making relationship with the partners of acceptance houses, and also with the big bosses of the joint stock banks. I remember Lidbury, strong figure of Westminster Bank, or...

What was he like? HermannAbs C409!040101 F529A Page 7

Oh, he was a very strong, autocratic master of his own bank, and also in the market, and he taught me a lesson, which I've never forgotten, and I've used it all my lifetime. If you're asked to make a credit, yet did himself committed sins against this thesis, he said, 'You must look first, what is the idea to use the proceeds of the credit for? And the second, what is the source of repayment? If you get a good answer on those two questions, you can study the credit, whether it can be granted or not. But if one or two, one or the other, or both, are not sufficiently answered, you better don't touch it.' That was an old lesson he taught me once in a meeting with him. Then I not...except Lidbury, I knew very well, I knew very well the men of the Midland, of the Midland Bank, that's right. It was in Lloyds Bank, Lord Waddington in the Midland Bank, the Chief General Manager was a Mr Hyde, H-Y-D-E, and he was the best friend to Deutsche Bank, but I was at that time nothing to do with Deutsche Bank, and I was employee in Amsterdam, later on an employee in Delbrtick Schickler in Berlin, until I became partner of this very old German private banking firm in Berlin. And I was three years partner before I was asked to join the Board of General Managers of Deutsche Bank.

This is the Deutsche Bank, yes. But when you first came to London, did you have any contacts? Did you know anybody already?

Then I was accompanied by a, either by Konigs, who was a partner of Delbrucks in Cologne and in Berlin, ifhis name too, Odius Koniga[ph] Handelsmaatschappij, Odius, were a wool merchant from Antwerp, and Konigs was the banking element. So he had connections immediately after the war. And then there was a man, a manager of my banking firm, where I was a foreign exchange dealer, his name was Heinrich, and Heinrich had a German name, but he was a Swiss, and he was a long time the manager of Swiss Bank Corporation in London, which he left during the war, and he went to neutral Holland and he became manager ofOdius Konigsjph] Handelsmaatschappij, which was my bank. And he had the best connections, and he had also arranged this for me, a stagiaire with Morgan Guaranty in Lombard Street. There was a man in this foreign department, just trying to remember his name, I think I have put it down somewhere, but I leamt...1 come to this in a moment. Just a moment, just a moment. You asked a question, whether I had a contact... Now, your HennannAbs C409/040/01 F529A Page 8 question was whether 1 had relation with, in '25, '26, onwards, because after 1 returned, 1 became head of the Documentary Credit Department ofOdius Konigsjph] Amsterdam, after my stagiaire, and then 1 had already made links with acceptance houses in London, while 1 was stagiaire in London, had sufficient time, during luncheon, to try the kitchens of all the private bankers, all of different quality.

Can you describe that? What was that like?

It was, in the quality different. One of the best was Kleinwort. There 1 met Andreas, who was an uncle, 1 believe, of Klein wort, ifI'm not mistaken. He was the senior at that time. And there 1 met, also, B.S. Kleinwort and C.H. Kleinwort. And then a Mr Holm, who was a special department chief of Documentary Credits, he played a certain role, and came to Germany after '45 in a semi-military capacity, Mr Holm, 1 remember. But 1 met also Holland Martin, of Martin's Bank. Or the Sir Robert Kindersley, the senior partner of Lazards. 1remember when 1 once entered his office in February '39 he said, 'Very nice to receive you. But 1 will tell you one thing, either way, 1 hate the Germans.' 'That's not very kind of you to tell me. I'm a German.' 'You're not a German.' 1 said, 'I am a German. 1 always have been. I'm born German, I'm still a German, and ...' 'But you are not German.' 1 said, 'How do you justify this exception?' 'You are the only one 1 know from your country who knows the art of understatement. ' The only one, that was his excuse.

But how did you feel when he said that?

Oh, 1 didn't feel offended. 1 knew that the Germans were hated, and being from the Rhineland, 1 was not very Prussian, and we thought the Rhineland was conquered by Prussia in, after Napoleon; until then it wasn't Prussia in Bonn or Cologne, if you remember rightly.

Did you feel rather divided?

Very divided. And there were some political reasons for this. Now, 1 do remember Kindersley, but Sir Robert Brand, with whom 1 developed a special friendship, he was close to Asquith and also the London Times, and he was a Rhodes Scholar. He was HermannAbs C409/040101 F529A Page 9 together with Cecil Rhodes in Zimbabwe (just to say it now is not easy), it was after Cecil Rhodes, and he was a very good friend of South America. So, I remember Mr Tizer[ph]. But also a son of Sir Norman, Mark Norman.

End ofF529 Side A HermannAbs C409/040101 F529B Page 10

F529 Side B

He was in the, in the staff of Mark Norman, he was, being the son of his father, he had many links, naturally, in the City, and he was one of the people in charge often. Then there was a Mr Schuller, who emigrated from Austria in '38, after the Anschluss, and had great difficulty to pass a pied, he walked over the Pass and through Italy, he came to London where he had a good reputation. He had negotiated the trade agreements of Austria, as long as Austria was independent. And he found a desk at one set at that time, with Lazards. So they accepted people from the Continent, like Gianini[ph] did in California much later. In '38, for the famous partner of Berliner Handels- Gesellschaft, one of the old giant stock banks, but with private partners, and it was, I must try to remember the name, I come to this a moment later, I hope. A banker called... I come to him later, yes?

Yes.

It's very important, because he found a desk with Gianini[ph], and he worked in California, but never became a member of the Board of General Managers. Then I remember Arthur Guinness and his assistants, there was a partner of Guinness, a man, they lived in the old building of this Berliner Handels-Gesellschaft. I would like to remember you that Deutsche Bank and this Berliner Handels-Gesellschaft both had a branch, later they merged in 1929, they both had, in pre-1914 days, a branch in London, which naturally were closed as enemy entities, and Guinness man was in the former building, this Berliner Handels-Gesellschaft as above, Gesellschaft, Berlin, and Barclays was the, became the owner of the Deutsche Bank branch, behind left of Lombard Street, behind Fenchurch Street, there was a building in a side alley, and there was the head office of Barc1ays, a long time, especially for the foreign department.

And what was Guinness like?

Guinness was also a very international. Later on, Guinness combined with Schroders, you remember. There was a Charles Villiers, he was a London banker, of Belgian origin, and he was a long time of the National Coal Board, and also of British Steel, HermannAbs C409/040/01 F529B Page 11 and organised the reorganisation of the steel industry, which became a state enterprise under the Labour Government. Now, with Hambro, I had a very close relationship with old OlafHambro, but also with Charles Hambro. I believe he had changed his wife, together with an old Wallenberg in Stockholm. He married after divorce, the divorcee ofHambro, and Hambro married, if I'm not mistaken, a divorcee of Wallenberg. They always had a close relationship.

What was the character of Charles Hambro?

Charles? He was very internationally minded, but Olafwas the genuine senior, a grand character. He had a beautiful apartment in the neighbourhood of, now from, what is that road from James's Palace? Just opposite in, at the end ofSt. James's Street. So right in the City of London.

And what sort of life did he lead?

He was daily in the office, and it was a very important acceptance house, Charles Hambro. And Hambro had also credits, not only to Amsterdam, and out of Amsterdam, there came a relationship with Delbruck, So I paid a visit, especially, first as Delbruck, but those I mentioned here, I joined a set of the foreign department, Deutsche Bank, in '37, and started my office there on l" January 1938.

In Germany?

In Berlin. And so I had many connections in the last pre-war days, '39, '38 and '39. As I mentioned, a visit with Sir Robert Kindersley in February '39, which was my last visit to London in pare-war days.

Presumably you knew Sir Alexander Kleinwort at this time?

I saw, certainly, Andreas was still alive, I believe, in, in, ifI'm not mistaken, he was still alive in '38. I think he died during the war, it could be, I don't know. I don't remember I ever met after the war. After the war, I was invited by the British Government, because I acted as an adviser for financial questions and central banking HermannAbs C409/040101 F529B Page 12 in the British headquarters. And he asked me for, 1 established a small advisory committee, much to the dislike ofthe Americans, who forced this British member of the Central Board in Berlin to withdraw from Germany, and he was replaced by the later head of the I.C.!., what is the big chemical trust, in London.

When you were on the advisory board, what sort of advice were you giving? What were they asking?

To open a small branch of Reichsbank people, to organise the certain functions, for the time being, in the shadow of the British element in the occupied zone of northern Germany, in Rhineland. And 1 advised to engage two people, one was Focke[ph] and the other was Hulser[ph], and in my capacity as head of the advisory committee I made the agreement with them. But as soon as the Americans heard about it, they didn't want any central bank, they wanted to have small banks locally, city-wise. Or later on, they were very generous. Country-wise, we had nine states in the Federal Republic, and two independent cities, Bremen and Hamburg, which was not to the ideas of United Kingdom. And a part of the element of British and American was that they had difficulty to agree, which was, no doubt, for one who advised, that was later on, Adenauer, which was myself, had certain advantageous consequences, that one could play with the British flute in the small chamber music orchestra of British, French, American and Russian occupation zones. It was later on, we had this magnanimous attitude of Churchill, but he was immediately not re-elected. His successor was Attlee, Labour, and he was different from Churchill. Churchill won the war by his toughness, he wanted to defend Britain, even if a German army would have entered the country, 'We fight it after each bush[??].' And he made a remark in the House of Commons, to his surrounding, Whispering, 'I would like to know with what we would fight!' Because they lost entire part of their army, and got the boys back from Dunkirk, but not any arms, in the defence of France, and they lost their, their Rhine army to a great, at least the armaments, and thousands of little boats, sailboats, and so, went over the Belgian coast and saved them, brought the people home. Which is one of the great toughness of Churchill. He was married to an American, or his mother was American, and he made no mistake to get United States to join. It started with cash-and-carry clause, Britain could only import arms if they paid for it, and great enterprises in Britain lost their American fortune, their HermannAbs C409/040101 F529B Page 13

American, even participations, they had to tum into cash to pay the Americans. But when it was all over, they gave credits and, and then later on, after Pearl Harbour, and the Japanese attacked United Kingdom, Hitler declared war on the United States, not the other way round. Then American armoured with full force. 1predicted this, it might amuse you, in March '39, that would happen, if any time would be a war, United Kingdom would join the enemies of Germany, of Hitler, and it was a question of time that United States would join with all forces, to begin with, and finally joined the war. 1 was ...they wanted to arrest me for this remark, I only reported my . . impressions,

Who wanted to arrest you?

The German secret police.

And had you made the remark publicly?

I had it made, no, secretly, in a committee meeting of my bank, but there was one member in the committee who had denounced me to the secret police.

What happened?

It happened, I was ...I deny it. 1 said, 'I made two remarks, that was my experience, but you say it was when 1 came from United Kingdom. It's nonsense, because 1 left United Kingdom last time on is" February, after I met Neville Chamberlain in the German Embassy on is" February. 1 left the next day, or the same night. I believe the next day. And since then 1wasn't in England, so 1 can't have made a remark coming from England.' 'Can you prove that you haven't been?' 'You see, you can have my passport. There you see my last exit and entry in United Kingdom.' The man who reported me had neglected England and made a mistake. 1 reported about my experience of United States. So by not having been in England, I got away with it.

And how were you able to predict that America would come in? HermannAbs C409/040101 F529B Page 14

That was my impression in talking to my American friends. I was a whole week in, in United States, in March, in March '39. I remember 19th March, Neville Chamberlain made a speech, after Hitler entered Prague, that was the new development of Germany, and my predictment was, 'No one on the Western world will ever enter into agreement with Adolf Hitler,' and I remember still having in my ear, the voice of Neville Chamberlain, at a lunch period with Continental Illinois Bank, on 19th March, in Chicago, and I hear that in my ears, when Neville Chamberlain made a speech, a luncheon speech, you'll remember the difference of time between Chicago and London, which is about six hours, I believe. And he said, 'Have I not been entitled to be asked by Herr Hitler ifhe wanted to march into Prague after the Munich Agreement?' And my impression with talking to my American friends, in industry and in banking circles, I was convinced no one will ever sign again an agreement with Hitler, because Hitler had lived up to his signature. And it means, if there should be a war, that a question of time, that United States will support the enemies of Germany who are facing war, or might even face a war. I didn't talk about Poland, I didn't know anything about it. And United States, with all its forces, support the, based on the other lines of 1916-18, of United States with England, and the enemies of Germany, that will happen again. They will never sign a contract. They certainly will not declare German on war, unless Hitler gives reason for it, and therefore, we cannot believe that United States will stay neutral in such a case. And Ribbentrop had given the advice to Hitler, 'United Kingdom is too decadent to, to ever fight against the super army and armaments of Hitler, if there should be a war.'

Did you have support in the Deutsche Bank when you said this, or were you standing alone?

No, I had support with my general management. I only was member, I even know who it is, who did it. A semi-political figure who was in the committee, in the Credit Committee, which was a very small entity, just a chairman and deputy chairman and three members, four members. I was one of them.

And did they, on the whole, believe Hitler would succeed? HermannAbs C409/040101 F529B Page 15

I, I personally never believed him, because they will never end before the final unconditional surrender. And I succeeded ... After the declaration of Churchill was, 'We will fight Germany until the very end, with all our force, with all our strength, unless we find the ...' and he introduced, very early, the unconditional surrender, at that time, still Opposition. Neville Chamberlain was. And I succeeded, which is now in the meantime known, but it wasn't known at that time, to talking to an American friend of mine, his name was Mann, he was a member of the American, he was an American banker, he was a long-time representative, I believe, of the Chase Bank, in pre-war days, in Berlin, to ask one way or other, Neville Chamberlain, to make a declaration in the House. And he did through Lord Samuel, approached Neville Chamberlain, and Chamberlain made this statement I requested, to say, 'We are not fighting the German people. We are fighting the Hitler regime.' And this was important, because some resistance groups, one of them I was a member of, that I survived is a miracle, I can't help it, they laid down, they didn't want to do anything. 'Now we are at war, we can't do anything. We can't now resist now there's a war.' And even one of my friends, he was killed in action in Poland, one survived fighting in Poland. They were still old cavalry regiments, riding into Poland, and a crazy world. And after this declaration, it reminded one and the other of important resistance people. We have to fight Hitler even during the war.

And were you able to do that at all through the Deutsche Bank?

No, personally, personally, personally. I couldn't tell Deutsche Bank, that was too dangerous. You see, one can only lose one head.

What were you able to do?

I was all the time still in Berlin, I had to do my, my business, how it was at that time. We still had a foreign department, 700 employees, but we had business with neutral countries and with Italy, which was neutral, until the end of the German, the French defeat with the German army, and then the last moment, Mussolini, who wanted to get a part of the Mediterranean coast and join to Italy, and he declared war on France, I believe that one day before they surrendered to Germany. A fine character, huh? HennannAbs C4091040101 F529B Page 16

And can you tell me a bit more about the time that you met Chamberlain?

Chamberlain was invited by the German Ambassador, Dirksen[ph], a very able Berlin citizen, an old Berlin family, and it was the end of the Civil War in Spain, and the reason was, the reason was, just let me try to remember. It was a consequence of the Munich Agreement, which was a signed contract with France, was it not Deladier, I don't know, and Mussolini and Hitler and Neville Chamberlain, and who else? Who else? Just try to remember. France, United Kingdom, Italy, Germany ... Germany, Was it a four-power agreement? I believe it was. And as a consequence, it was after never war[??], that was a declaration of Chamberlain, by giving in, to sign a contract that Hitler get away with the Sudeten German area, who suffered terrible later on by Czechoslovakia, which now Havel has admitted, and long time kept as a secret, but they were with terrible cruelty, driven out of the country. It was a British politician, Cavendish-Bentinck, now Duke of Portland, he's still alive, very good friend of mine, while talking to you, I do remember, who protested against this cruelty, by which Germans were driven out of Poland and Sudetenland, and after 1945, and understandable I would say, as a human being, what Hitler did on Czechoslovakia, what Hitler did on Poland, especially on Poland, or on Soviet Russia, on which we still now are on the eve whether solution is possible to solve, with the revolution against communism, which definitely failed to bring about a better welfare to the people and a more just form of a government. It was a cruel dictatorship under Stalin, who made once an agreement with Hitler. He didn't refuse to sign a contract with Hitler, with the forced division of Poland, taking a part of Poland; never returned, it's still part of Soviet Russia, and Germany took, with the general government, in our government, took from Poland, what was left in the West. The consequence you know.

So when you met Chamberlain ...

When I met Chamberlain, I did ask him one question. Now, the Civil War in Spain is over. It needs reconstruction. For this they need foreign credits, because many cities, I can think of Toledo, I think of great destruction in some areas of Spain, as a consequence of the Civil War from '36 to the end of '38, when the legitimate government, called as the 'White Government', had to give in, and Franco became the HermannAbs C409/040/01 FS29B Page 17 only government head, and dictator of Spain. And wouldn't be possible that Britain and Germany jointly try to give only credit for reconstruction of this country. His answer was, 'Herr Abs, you know that we're there on the side of the legitimate Government. We didn't join forces of Spain to fight Franco. But to give credits for reconstruction in Spain, I need the protection of public opinion. To find public opinion ready to do this, needs time, time, time.' That was the whole talk I had with him.

Did you rather despise him?

No, no, no. I could understand. I mean, we had a sympathy, naturally, with Franco. But Franco was clever never, never to join forces with Mussolini or Hitler, he didn't trust them. There was a Spanish division fighting in Russia, the so-called 'Blue Division', who suffered big losses, but they were volunteers. And a son of my associate, Konigslph], I already mentioned, Odios[ph] Koniga[ph], he was killed in action as an air pilot fighting in Spain, but on the right, legitimate side, and he was killed in action. There you show the attitude of, even of Germans,

End ofF529 Side B HermannAbs C409/040102 F530A Page 18

F530 Side A

So 1 knew very well Sir Edward Reid, who was a partner of Schroder, he was, after the war, the element for the revival of the Standstill Agreement after, after' 51, which was a part of the four groups of foreign indebtedness which had to be settled then. And the London Debt Agreement, of which 1 was head of the German delegation.

What sort ofa man was he?

He was a man of independent City spirit. There was a distribution of the, out of the liquidated enemy property, German property in England, which was distributed among the creditors, under one condition, they can't, in accordance with the LondonIParis Reparation Agreement of' 46, in no way whatsoever, to return it to Germany. And Sir Edward Reid, as head of the Acceptance Committee, he succeeded also with the City members, to credit debtors' account of the Standstill Agreement, therefore returning it to Germany. And he was summoned by the Treasury that he undo this, because it was not in accordance with the British agreement, and the LondonIParis Agreement, never to return in one way or other to Germany, And his very proud answer, he told me himself, was very simple, 'There's no British law that can force me to claim, a second time, a German claim, with a German, or whoever it may be. Therefore, we are forced to proceed to receive out of German property for our claims on German debtors, to credit the account of German debtors.' And he got away with it. That was the spirit of the City of London. And that was joined by all, by Kleinwort, by Japhet, by Hambros, by all of them. That was a unanimous vote, decision of Reid, Sir Edward Reid.

Do you think that was because most of them had European forebears, or were connected with Europe? Do you think that was a very importantfactor?

No, it was just, it isn't done. 'I can't ask twice, a repayment.' Now they have some, it was, at the same time, it was to the benefit of the creditors, because there were some credits who were difficult to claim, because they were stuck in Silesia, and the occupation zone of Soviet Russia, and they couldn't claim, at least not for the time. And they could ask a certain guarantee for the Gold Discount Bank, an old HermannAbs C4091040102 F530A Page 19

arrangement, it's too complicated to explain to you. But beyond this, there were some rotten debtors, and naturally, they could put it on the account of those who otherwise they couldn't claim a second time, because, I called them, 'Venice Debtors'[phJ, the 'Verschwunden und Schultnen'[ph].

When you were trying to work in the Resistance, did that involve bankers in the City of London at all? When you were involved with the Resistance, did that involve any contact with bankers in the City?

No. That was much too dangerous. I was asked, three days before the, one tried to kill Hitler on the 20t? July '44, I was asked on the 1th by one of the leading figures to join Count Tot for negotiation of unconditional surrender, to go over to London and offer this to, to join this group, and I accepted. That shows my personal attitude. But all those who'd asked me to do it, they were all hanged by Hitler, within... My friend Peter John Mackenberg[ph] was hanged on 10th August '44. James Count Morker[ph], he didn't join to ask me, because he was already since February in the concentration camp, so he hadn't forced, he wasn't active in the [INAUDIBLE] on Hitler, but he was, got his court proceedings and was hanged in February '45, on the very end of the war.

And did you meet Churchill?

Churchill I met, one day, when he got his prize in, after the war. I happened to be in Stockholm to see my friends, Wallenbergs, and he got a prize of the city of Aix-le- Chapelle, of Aachen, the so-called 'Charlemagne Prize' of the city, for peace, and he wanted to meet at the British Embassy, a few Germans. I believe there were four he wanted to speak to, I was one of them. 1 had to charter an Aer Lingus plane in Stockholm to get there in time, because 1 didn't want to miss him. And he asked me questions because he knew I was an adviser to Adenauer, and he wanted to know more about one of the advisers to Adenauer, who was, at that time, still, again and again, asked by Adenauer to become Foreign Minister, and when he asked a third time, I said, 'I will only answer in an offer, but not questions.' I was rather proud. I didn't need to answer questions. That was the reason. HermannAbs C409/040102 F530A Page 20

What was Adenauer like?

Ah, he was the right man at the right time, on the right place. He had the soberness of a city mayor, of Cologne, and his anti-Berlin feelings, and do the best on driving at the possibility of Western alliance. And that was clear-cut. And with it, by him, there's no freedom of Germany unless we get support by the West, otherwise we are a theatre, scenery for Soviet Russia. And that was clear-cut advice. 'We can fight for freedom, but only we can enjoy freedom if we are protected against an invasion of Soviet Russia.' That was his policy. Very simple.

And when you were involved in the negotiations after the war, in the Fifties, who were the dominant voices? When you say you were playing off one little chamber orchestra with another.

No, that was, that was in the struction[ph] of German Credit Institution, Deutsche Bank [INAUDIBLE], there were teams, and I negotiated with the American element, because they were deciding, the British played an important role, they gave me a personal support when I was asked to appear in the War Criminals Court, as a voluntary witness of the prosecution. I was then, full freedom. What I didn't know, I had a guarantee by the British military government. They arranged with United States, they couldn't put me in prison while I was a voluntary witness of the prosecution. There were many questions about the banks, about the I.G. Farben, and other questions put to me, and I was six weeks in Nuremberg.

What sort of questions?

The question about activities of the war, during the war. What did they do? Did they support Hitler? And we had Treasury bills in our portfolio, what else? And also the British banks, and the American banks, a very similar percentage of their assets were Treasury bills, and Treasury bonds, what else could they have? But the difference was, we fought a war, and lost it. We deserved to lose it, because we had started the war, Hitler, and the other two, the British banks and the American banks, were on the winning side, and they won the war; justified, because they fought a dictatorship. A very simple differentiation between creditors and, and Germany. HennannAbs C409/040/02 F530A Page 21

An we just go back again to the pre-war days in London.

Yes.

What was the atmosphere, and how did it differ, for instance, from working in a banking city in Germany?

You mean in '48?

No, pre-war, in the late Twenties and early Thirties.

No, that was the spirit of, and the importance of, the City of London. They had a certain independence, and very proud and strong partnerships. Kleinwort later joined Benson, but that was much later. Or take Hambros, a very strong group, with interest in insurance companies and so on. Or Lazards, like Sir Brand, as I told you, he was the right hand of Cecil Rhodes in Rhodesia, which I visit when Ian Smith was still Prime Minister, and so on, and I know South Africa very well. And there's a different story, but then, companies, if! can call a few, take Baring, was a very important company, which I visited, in pre-war days already, or take people like ...that is American, Holland, a long list, Switzerland is even a longer list, but that's a neutral country, including American [INAUDIBLE], as President of the International Bank of Settlements.

But was the atmosphere of London different? Was it more hurried, and more ... ?

No, it was always international. Then, sort of the good time of pre-wars and peaceful development in the world, and of where is it... What is the time? I believe I have to leave. [INAUDIBLE] Eric Berthoud, the Anglo-Iranian oil in Paris, who later on was Ambassador in Denmark. And when I was, I was never during the war in Denmark, because it was occupied by Germany, I didn't want to embarrass myself or my friends. When I came first to Denmark, it was negotiating with the Danish Government, a claim they had. They had taken 250,000 German refugees, and expellees from Eastern Prussia, partly saved their life, after one big boat full of HermannAbs C409/040102 F530A Page 22 refugees and expellees was sunk in the Baltic Sea, and they gave shelter, clothes, food for 250,000 Germans, and it took them years before we could take them back by 25,000 each time, to place them somewhere, to find labour and homes. And they had a claim, justified claim, of this, and I had to negotiate, as an indebtedness of post-war Germany, and I had to negotiate this. And I was seeing Sir Eric Berthoud, invited by all my pre-war friends in the British Embassy, and I met my Danish friends in the British Embassy. That is how to take contact again.

When you were in London before the war, did you see other bankers in the evenings? Was there a social life?

Oh yes, certainly.

What sort of things would you do?

Jut normally, I, I met with them at a dinner party, or at receptions. I just, I think, by example of, of Tiarks, Frank Tiarks, and, Frank is the junior, I believe, isn't it? Or was it his father? Just a moment.

Would there be members of the Government at the dinners?

I was in good terms with Lord Swinton, who was once a member of the Government, and I was together with him in an international company, of the former Venezuelan railway company, which was a German company, but during the pre-war days, it was merged in the post-war period after 1918, it was put in a Spanish holding company, and Lord Swinton was on the board, and so I was, I was, I had a long talk with him. That's ...but where is...I was looking for my ...British list.

Was there a great change in London after the war? When did you first go back to London?

I was invited by the British Government, and stayed at the Savoy, very noble, because I couldn't pay for it, I was invited. At that time, there was still a limitation, you could not get more food than you could buy for five shillings, you remember? But you HermannAbs C409/040102 F530A Page 23 could go to one restaurant; you could go, if you were still hungry, to a second one, you could again eat for five shillings. That I didn't need to do.

Had the atmosphere of the City changed a great deal after the war?

Not with the older, they still had, naturally, the great sufferings. They had personally, or, take ... Now here's the thing, I've got it. I was looking all the time. I remember I seen McKenna[ph], he was the Chairman of Midland Bank. Then I was very close to, close to Lord Waddington, I saw regularly at the start. Charles Lidbury, I already mentioned. There was a man called Bentley, he was a sort ott??] general manager. Of Barclays Bank at that time, was Stephenson, their General Manager, and the National Provincial Bank was Sir Victor Schuster, I believe he had turned 100, one day, he was in the Atlantic College, which was a creation of [INAUDIBLE] Gordonstoun, where Duke of Edinburgh went to school after he left Salem, a German school at Lake Constance, and I helped Hahn for the establishment of World College, St. Donats Castle, by support of the Bonn Government, as a post-war, and Sir Victor Schuster was very close to the Atlantic College. Now, I was in England, I have it here, in May '38, ten days, in pre-war days, in '39 in three days, in January '39, and again in February I told you, four days. That was my three trips from Germany in pre-war days, not more. But formerly, when I was still in Holland, and I was with Delbruck Schickler, I was regularly, every two, three months, I was a few days. It was difficult. I remember an immigration officer, first 200 Marks I was allowed to have with me, then 50, and in the end, ten Marks. He knew me very well at the Immigration Office in Harwich, and they say, 'Mr Abs, you don't tell me today, you're going to see your tailor. On ten Marks, he wouldn't be happy to see you.' And then he knew, I said, 'To see my tailor and my banking friends.' I got away with this. Later on, I had to have even a permit to go through the entrance in Harwich, when I travelled during the London Debt Conference, for British only. They say, 'Is that a privilege?' And he was a bit surprised, the head of the Immigration Office. I certainly considered it as a privilege, to have this. And then I got the first boat train, and luncheon was served on the first boat train for Continentals who had to pass through the ceremony and custom and passport control, and to be checked on the list and so on. They missed the first boat train, and after I got through it for British only, I

got my good breakfast. HermannAbs C409/040/02 F530A Page 24

Can we talk a little bit more about the Klein wort family, your memories of them?

Yes. I remember Kleinworts, they came over to see Delbruck Schickler, they went regularly to the city, city of Bergen. And I remember, both very elegant, a bowler hat and perfect, they could have been a advertisement for British tailoring. Very often they wear [INAUDIBLE], but was British tailoring, you see.

Is this Alexander?

That was, was it Alexander? I believe, at that time... I got the initials here. Just a moment, now you go back to pre-war days. Ah, here. I'm glad he[??] found this here. I saw the grandson[??] later on, Lord Aldington, who has now a struggle with ...

What was he like then?

He was an independent banker, I know him as Kredietbank[??], with branches in India. And I had a lot to do then, I was one of three-man committee, invented by Senator Kennedy, later President Kennedy, to visit India, Burma and Pakistan, whether to see that this independent part of the world needed support, to avoid that it will get closer contact with Soviet Russia, and ifnot being an independent area of South-East Asia, to have some liens with the West, and that was, British, Sir Oliver Franks, who was during the war a British Ambassador in Washington, and immediately after the war, and later he was Professor Economies in Oxford. He's still the President [INAUDIBLE] and he is, he was Chairman of Lloyds later on, and still alive.

And what of Klein worts ?

And Kleinwort, I just... Yes, I have not the list of the time before I went to Berlin, I went to Berlin only in '29. So prior to '29, I haven't a list here. I already had visit Kleinworts, Mr Holm, I mentioned already, and the partners. And the partners was Andreas and the two Kleinworts. I've got some somewhere, but where are they? HennannAbs C409/040/02 F530A Page 25

And presumably, you knew Ernest Kleinwort very well?

Ernest, yes, was one. And that's the father of one who now lives in, in Switzerland.

Yes. What was Ernest Kleinwort like?

He was just in the spirit of Kleinwort. Very serious, London, typical acceptance house bankers. And 1helped in a certain, to a certain credit. Kleinworts and Schroder had with joint account with Delbruck, joint account means 50-50 risk of the credit itself. Without a guarantee of'Delbruck Schickler for a half, a direct credit to a big department store, Teets, in Berlin, and we kept a collateral, that were the 100 per cent of the real estate holding company of Teets. Leone Teets and, and was it Leone? It was Teets in Berlin, it's a different Teets in Cologne, there was a part of the family were separate entities. And this was quite a huge amount, if! remember rightly, it was £500,000 sterling. So £250,000, partly Kleinwort, partly Schroder, and 250,000 sterling, Delbruck Schickler, re-financed by Kleinwort and Schroder, but under the guarantee of Delbruck Schickler, and 1had an agreement with the General Manager of Teets, his name was Swinnenberg[ph], that the collateral of the shares, total shares holding of Teets, were handed over to Delbruck Schickler as a collateral for this loan. And we had an agreement on the charges, mortgages on the property, they were not allowed to increase the indebtedness on the real estate, in spite of this, they did. And then 1made credits due and repayable, after the Standstill Agreement, with maintenance of the credits was already established, including those credits. But we were maltreated, and I claimed and threatened Swinnenberg[ph], that I'm going to sue him for court, for not living up to the agreement signed, because he allowed further charges, and devalued, thereby, the value of the collateral. They were more indebtedness, there was only the balance left, on the real value of the real estate, which had a certain meaning as a collateral. And 1forced him to repay, in order to avoid court proceedings, at a time when there was the early period, prior to Hitler, but as a Jewish entity, he had to be very careful to move about, and he found the money, and repaid, but in Marks. Then I went to see the Reichsbank, the central bank, and I said, 'I have here a criminal case. I have forced them, because we were maltreated, we were, how do you say, we were challenged in a devaluation, of our lien, we had on the property. And therefore, I ask you to allow a transfer.' And I got, believe it or HermannAbs C409/040/02 F530A Page 26 not, a transfer of the whole 500,000 sterling, and we repaid, much to the pleasure of Kleinwort and Schroders, with no discount, including interest, the full repayment of this credit. That is, that naturally creates trust, I should say.

When you went to see people like Kleinwort, in the City, would you speak German, or would you speak English?

English, English. My poor English!

Your English is very good. And have you memories of Cyril Kleinwort?

Cyril, I believe they're cousins.

The brother, the brother of Ernest.

They are both, and I remember both when they visit to Berlin bowler hat and a grey suit, and they saw the various banking, practically the big banks, and certainly Mendelssohn and certainly Bleichroeder and certainly Berliner Handels. Now, I remember the name, Jeidels[ph] it was, he was the head of the Standstill German Committee before I took over. I joined the Committee, and Jeidels[ph] had a desk with Gianini[ph], bank, America, Bank of America, in California, it was Jeidels[ph]. I tried to remember the name before.

End ofF530 Side A HermannAbs C409/040102 F530B Page 27

F530 Side B

Now, did you ask whether I had personal meetings? Very often invitations, in, in restaurants, naturally, not luncheon, but evening, or also luncheon arrangements, with some City friends or industrial friends or what. That happened in pre-war days, but happened also in post-war. After having been invited by the British Government, I think I was eligible to be also guest of, in private, I remember a private dinner with Tiarks to give an example, in his private home. That was in '36. I remember this date for one reason so well, because I went with my wife. We were both invited. I had her with me. '36. We went to see, in, in the Old Vic, John Gielgud and Peggy Ashcroft in Romeo and Juliet, the most wonderful performance we have in mind. We said we'll never see it again, because it was so perfect, and the playing of Peggy Ashcroft and John Gielgud, a quality of playing Shakespeare. Even Reinhardt in Berlin, where we had a theatre of the highest quality, but Shakespeare, or also modem plays, like Noel Coward, or Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Ernest, or such, it was wonderful to see them, performance in England. The difference was, an English actor, he was himself, a gentleman. So, to play the role of a gentleman, he hadn't to study. In Germany, it was different. He had first to study the role of a gentleman, and he tried to do it in what believed a British gentleman should be like. He might have been a gentleman, but he changed his role into a role, and that is a difference, which was, for me, inacceptable, because I'd seen it at perfection in Britain. Many, there was a famous actor, what was his name? He died in an air accident in the war, during, between Portugal and Britain. Morley? No, was it Morley?

Robert Morley? Robert Morley?

Robert Morley?

He died quite recently though.

No, that's a different.

I'm not sure if he's still alive. HennannAbs C409/040102 F530B Page 28

I remember once crossing the ocean and we had long discussion, and walking on the, on the promenade deck, because in pre-war days one went on boat, and there was no air possibility.

And did you know Maynard Keynes?

Mm?

Did you know Maynard Keynes?

I never met Keynes personally. I studied his books.

What was the general attitude to him?

Oh, he was one of the revolutionary economists, who set up an international monetary system, which more or less, the, the monetary agreement in the post-war, the Bretton Woods Agreement based on Keynes, very, to a considerable part, based on Keynes, and so funny, he was one of the outstanding figures in the international monetary field.

And how did you feel about the Bank of England being nationalised?

It didn't change much to a foreign visitor. I had very good friends in the, like Sitman[ph], who was one of the, had a great knowledge of German poetry, and he very often gave me unsolved lines in German poetry, and he wanted to have a good English translation. And he, one day, after I had been elected the first head of the German Central Bank, in April '47, that's post-war experience what I'm talking about, he said, you're a part of the holy brotherhood of international banks, only we haven't been elected, it didn't go through, because there was an American protest against that, raised poor conditions, and one of them, which I thought was important, was not accepted by the American part ofthe Bankers' Committee, George Bennett[ph] and Tannenbaum[ph], who was the creator of the German monetary reform. It was not Erhard, he made use of it, but he didn't make it. And contrary to the British element, who supported me, and the German Ministry of Finance of the HermannAbs C409/040/02 F530B Page 29

States, supported me, but the Americans didn't want to give that man the fulfilment of the condition I'd made together with one co-fellow, who was Chairman of the Central Board, and I was Deputy Chairman, delegated to the General Managers of the Central Bank. That happened in April '47. It was one of the reasons, to be invited by the British Government to come to London, and there, so naturally the Bank of England. That was Montagu[ph], whom I already had met once in pre-war days in, in Frankfurt, in Berlin, not in Frankfurt, in Berlin, but also in London. And then I naturally knew Sir Niemeyer, who was the chief adviser to the creditors in my negotiations, the toughest negotiator I ever met in my life. Rather, he could be a pest, but he was wonderful in taking into account the interest of the creditor. Of a great wisdom, of a great international, his forefathers, naturally, he came with, with the Georges, King George from Hanover, his ancestor. The same is true of Sir Edward Reid. I believe the father of Reid was private doctor to, either to the father of Queen Victoria, or to Queen Victoria in her early days.

Can I ask you one last question, because we have tofinish soon, I think. What do you see as being thefuture of the City of London?

I believe in the future, because I do believe that the element of natural attitude of a creditor, to grant credits, not because and as soon as the creditworthiness is established, but on the eve, before it is established. Which was a great gift to the City of London. And I believe this spirit is still alive. It depends on the figures who run it. But, in the meantime, you see it on my friends, the Warburgs, Sigmund Warburg was a very close friend of mine; while I was stagiaire with Guaranty Trust, he was apprentice with Rothschild. And I saw Rothschilds in '38, because I was elected a member of the Board of the big huge Wienerbankfein Kreditstant[ph] in Vienna, and the election was only possible to put to the shareholders after concurrence was established with Rothschild in London. That was the old Rothschild influence on Vienna. And I had to see them. One was Lionel Rothschild, and the other was Sir Anthony. They immediately offered to talk, and I was introduced already by Sigmund Warburg, but we had talk on general outlook, political questions answered. I had a certain renomee[??] and standing. I never was a member of the party, I was not involved. I had very difficult time in the establishment during the Hitler regime, even in the early beginning. But that is not the question. At the same time when I HennannAbs C409/040/02 F530B Page 30

left, I don't forget it, they gave me a good recommendation, Hannan, in Duke Street, very good shirt-maker, and you can buy the best ties. Very typical, I believe that was Sir Anthony who gave me this advice. And certain private invitations I had often, but more often in connection with certain friends to be around the table, asked to join, to OK[??] place in a salon, in a chambre separee if at Lloyds, or in, in Barclays, one of the fine hotels, different, much better than Ritz, and, or a Sunday evening dinner, which was very typical. And I had also private connections of different types among the Catholics, and a Roman Catholic, and there were certain relationship with America, and also with United Kingdom, the family Schiller was his name, I remember, who had close contact with the Archbishop and Cardinal of Cologne, whom I knew very well. So that is private, private connections I made use of. But anyhow, I worked hard, and I improved my English. Or I tried to improve my English!

Did you ever go to the Kleinworts ' home in Sussex, Bolnore[?? J?

No, I never. Never. Never. I would have gone if! had been invited, but I wasn't. It was at the City encounter, with luncheon, yes, but luncheon at the office regularly. And the best roast beef was in, with Lloyds, and the best fish was with Olaf Hambro, the best coffee was with Schroder, and the best general food, in accordance to the season, was with Kleinwort. I knew the quality of all luncheons in the City.

So it was a very convivial atmosphere, by the sound alit? It was very convivial by the sound of it.

Yes, yes.

It wasn't solemn and serious all the time?

Yes, but I wasn't there... When I was with my wife, we got immediately invitations for family, and families, but not when I lived alone, and I was not a bachelor, I was married, married since, since I was in, still in Holland, I was married in '28, then I was still in Holland. HermannAbs C409/040102 F530B Page 31

So when you first came over to London, were you sometimes lonely?

No, I went to see either ...no, I wasn't. I had a club membership, but I didn't go. I had to be careful about spending money, you see. And, but generally, I went to see a theatre, very often, Noel Coward or, but many, Old Vic, like I told you, and, altogether with Sigmund Warburg, also to musical comedies, not alone, it wasn't my world. But I went to Covent Garden, to the opera, and I went to concerts, I remember Elgar very well, a British composition. Later on, I had a close friendship with Peter Pears and with Benjamin Britten. I learnt to know them, and, but that is much later, much later .

. And did you feel other bankers were as interested in theatre and music?

Oh yes, certainly, certainly. Were different. Some of them were very much, some, some less. But sports and so on. I didn't play any sport, no tennis, no polo, but I watched polo and, out in Windsor, I watched polo, and I did also abroad in Spain, or in, travelling abroad, but I didn't do any sport except walking on Sunday, together with Heinrich, who was a long-time head of the Swiss Bank Corporation in London. We walked for hours and hours, out in the, in, in, what, in Finchley Heath, there was a big, you walked for three, four hours, it was ...

Hampstead, was it, Hampstead Heath?

Yes, Hampstead Health, that's right. Or I went swimming, swimming and walking, that was the two sports, all my life. I never played any gentleman sport, because I was too much travelling all around the world, until I got a membership in a club, I already had left and went to the next place and so on, so I was ...

And do you go much to London clubs? Gentlemen's clubs?

No, not.., Yes I did, I had a, what was the name of the club? Out in Piccadilly, right in the neighbourhood of Hyde Park. Was it Hyde Park Comer? Yes, Hyde Park Comer, one of the clubs, I don't know. I forgot it. HermannAbs C409/040/02 F530B Page 32

And did you come into contact with the Royal Family at all?

Yes, I was invited to, to Buckingham Garden Party, in a grey hat, which I still wear if I go again to ... And there was someone there I knew, very well. Duke of Edinburgh and his son Charles, he took over from the Earl of Mountbatten, whom I knew very well, the Atlantic College in St. Donats Castle, I told you I helped to get contribution from Germany, to the great liking of Kurt Hahn, who was decorated, because [INAUDIBLE] had refused to support it, but I succeeded to get him twice, half a million Deutschmarks, which was a lot, indeed. Support of British Government was made dependent that he found international support, and the only one he found was from me in Bonn, because I knew Hahn, because two brothers of my wife, they're students in Salem. So I know Kurt Hahn since 1927, and he came to see me, and asked for support, and he wept, not because he was desolated, but he was happy when I said it on the telephone, and he could wait, along, that he got half a million; after he had two days before refused, a flat refusal, he received in Bonn, I got rearranged and so on. Some influence at some times, I have had.

And when were you last in the City?

Last in the City? Last in the City? Well, that's not so long ago, I don't know. In the Eighties, now, in the Eighties.

And what were the most striking changes?

Now I was, once you were talking about the Royal Family. On the official visit, she stayed at the Petersburg, and there was a reception, and I was asked by Queen Elizabeth, asked me, 'What is your opinion on the City?' And I gave a very optimistic view, as I gave to you, and I say, 'I believe there are among the next, and the third generation of people I knew so well, elements you can be proud of, who still live up to the City tradition, and would be able. in a better circumstances, and a more peaceful world, after all the destruction and dissolution of Commonwealth and what has happened, I'm very optimistic about the future of London. ' And she listened, and then she asked me a question, 'Abs, do you really mean what you say?' And then I trusted her, and gave examples of having met youngsters. The son of Lord Aldington HermannAbs C409/040/02 F530B Page 33 is now in the Board of Deutsche Bank branch in London, and Mr Lord is the original name before he became Lord Aldington, and he was a long time in Germany, and he's now married to a German. But even before, and also in other connections, I see elements of youngsters who have the same element, living up to the tradition, if they have the power to do so. And I do believe in the needs, if a creditworthiness is established of a country, you can't establish creditness by annihiliation of indebtedness. That's a great mistake vis-a-vis Third World. You have to adapt yourself, and what you claim. But you should, by exchange, not a capital, and a magnanimous attitude to the charge of interest, in accordance with the ability of a debtor country to produce liquidity and to be able to transfer it, as little, maybe, a raising figure, and as a creditor you have to adapt yourself. And if there is a creditworthiness, you must do so on the eve. I will tell you an example. I went to see Japan in 1961, that's now, what is it, 29 years ago. Yes. And it was a request by Yoshita. Yoshita was the principal political figure in Japan after the war, who had to liquidate, to liquidate the mess Japan was in, under the commandership of MacArthur. One of the great merits of Harry Truman, this small haberdasher, who succeeded to exclude the military government command in Japan, he recalled MacArthur and said, 'We've got to establish a peaceful development of Japan.' And I went there, because they wanted to have loans. And I arranged the first loans, four loans of a hundred million each, to Osaka, the reclamation ofland, to enlarge the city, an industrial area. I made the same thing for Koma[??], I made the same thing for Yokohama, the same thing for Tokyo, and finally loans also to the national government. And we ...Deutsche Bank, we have since then more or less, the position number one, of foreign creditors. I asked Westminster Bank to join a syndicate of a Deutschmark loan, because they were the old issuing connection of Japan in the Twenties. They refused. I asked in the City of an, in Wall Street, in America, in a bankers' community, to join my efforts to give loans to Japan, or to join a syndicate we were establishing, both refused. And the answer was for the British, and also of the American, even more curt decision from America, 'Japan needs a generation,' that was an American expression, 'before they will be creditworthy in an international capital market.' And in America, I did say, I dare say a prophesy, 'It needs only half a generation and Japan will export capital.' And then they thought up this crazy, now HermannAbs C4091040102 F530B Page 34 the title 'Crazy Abs', I have heard more often, but in this case I was right. And I think that's a good end of our interview.

End ofF530 Side B

End of Interview