NATIONAL LIFE STORIES CITY LIVES Hermann Abs Interviewed by Cathy Courtney C409/040 © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk This interview and transcript is accessible via http://sounds.bl.uk. © The British Library Board. Please refer to the Oral History curators at the British Library prior to any publication or broadcast from this document. Oral History The British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB United Kingdom +44 (0)20 7412 7404 [email protected] Every effort is made to ensure the accuracy of this transcript, however no transcript is an exact translation of the spoken word, and this document is intended to be a guide to the original recording, not replace it. Should you find any errors please inform the Oral History curators. © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk BRITISH LIBRARY NATIONAL LIFE STORIES INTERVIEW SUMMARY SHEET _______________________________________________________________ Ref. No.: C409/040 Playback Nos: F529-F530 _______________________________________________________________ Collection title: City Lives _______________________________________________________________ Interviewee's surname: Abs Title: Mr Interviewee's forenames: Hermann Date of birth: 15 October 1901 Sex: Male _______________________________________________________________ Dates of recording: 11 July 1990 Location of interview: Deutsche Bank AG, Germany Name of interviewer: Cathy Courtney Type of recorder: Marantz CP430 Total no. of tapes: 2 Speed: - Type of tape: cassette Noise reduction: dbx Mono or stereo: stereo Original or copy: Original _______________________________________________________________ Additional material: None _______________________________________________________________ Copyright/Clearance: Full clearance _______________________________________________________________ http://sounds.bl.uk HermannAbs C409/040/01 F529A Page 1 F529 Side A n" July 1990. Herr Abs •office at the Deutsche Bank in Frankfurt. Your background. did you comefrom a bankingfamily? I did not come from a banker family. My father was a lawyer, in the city of Bonn, which now, temporarily at least, is the capital of the Federal Republic of Germany. And he was specialising at the older age in advising not only family estates, agriculture property, but also, in his small area around Bonn, industrial companies. And I started apprenticeship in a small provincial bank, in 1920, which is now 70 years ago, and after completing, in a very short study at the university, for family reasons, I again joined a banking group as employee, which was the group of Delbruck Schickler and Company in Berlin, with a sister company in Cologne, and a joint venture in Amsterdam. Did you have contacts in the banking world? At that, no, no, no, I didn't. I didn't. I learned about it in, from my father, but he was only a customer of a bank, that was all. And I left Germany in 1922, and joined the family affiliation in Amsterdam, as foreign exchange dealer, so I was foreign exchange dealer, '22, '23, '24, in a very speculative time. Amsterdam was the only free foreign exchange market in Europe, as all other markets either didn't exist any longer, or haven't started yet, and were suffering under governmental regulations. United States hadn't found out yet what foreign exchange transaction meant, with the exception of pounds sterling and dollar, arbitration between New York and London. But that was more or less an exception, because they learned about banking only during and after the war, 1914-18, or for the United States, 1916. '48. Therefore London was most important market, but suffering, as I said already, under certain governmental restrictions, and the exchange dealers in London very often were Swiss origin, but also British, and developed a market again in the Twenties, which I accompanied as a foreign exchange dealer in Amsterdam, by my own experience between London and Continental Europe places. Hermann Abs C409/040101 F529A Page 2 When did you first go to the City of London? First I went to the City of London in February 1925. Can you tell me what your impressions were? I was very much interested, and I planned to get back there. No, I just have to ...no, not '25, not '25. It was '24, '24. '24. Because '25 I already came more repeatedly to London, and I came to London and stayed as a stagiaire with the branch of Guaranty Trust, 32 Lombard Street. So that is, I don't know, 65 years ago. What was the building like then? The building was the same as it was a long time after the war, and at that time, the head of the establishment, a branch of Guaranty Trust, was a Mr Shortis. I believe he also came originally from Kleinwort, if I'm not mistaken. And I was there in the Documentary Reimbursement Credit Department, which was still very important in London, for the home market, internationally as well. And I had no opportunity to learn about it in Amsterdam, or even in Germany, who was struck by an inflation and a more home market than international market, with the exception of Hamburg, Bremen and Hamburg; Bremen important for cotton importers, and Hamburg for general line of export and imports, and it still had a very close contact, immediately after the war, I would say ever since the monetary reform in Germany in 1923, which I had already experienced in my experience as foreign exchange dealer in Amsterdam. So what did you learn by the work you were doing in London? I learned about how to handle documentary credit, reimbursement credits, with the opening of acceptance credit, these credits in favour of importers or exporters. One had to be paid by the definite placement of the goods so imported in London, or in European market, or the exporter waited for the proceeds to come in from the exports. In the meantime, financed by British, especially by the British acceptance houses market, which did include a great number of private bankers, but also the huge five big joint stock banks, which was the Midland and the Westminster, National HermannAbs C409/040101 F529A Page 3 Provincial, Lloyds and Barclays, they're the five important joint stock banks, who had also commercial department and themselves, were also members on a sideline of the London Accepting Houses Committee, which was mainly organised, this committee, by the private acceptance houses. One of them was Kleinwort. There was Schroder, there was very important, Hambros, Lazards, and a number of other houses, about 20, 30 houses, some of them very small, who turned out to have closed liens from before 1914, especially with Hamburg bankers. And then could mention Goschen and Cunliffe, or Japhet was one of the houses. Old Mr Japhet turned to be 92 before he died. Did you know him? I knew him, yes. And he was waiting that Germany would come back to, to repay the loans outstanding in London. And he, at least, he outlived the crisis, which struck a great number of small acceptance houses in London, and there was a certain assistance, governed by the Bank of England, then, under Sir Norman, one of the great figures of the Bank of England, when they still had more independence. Then after his death, it became more and more, at least officially, dependent on the Treasury, more than it was before, but still governed by the personalities of the Governor of the Bank of England, also. Did you know the Governor of the Bank of England? I did know the Governor already at that time, Norman, I learned, I made my acquaintance. But later on, even better, like Earl of Cromer, who was a Baring, I hadn't mentioned him a moment ago, a very important house, after survived their famous crisis of 1891, I believe. And Earl of Cromer, or O'Brien, was a famous Governor. For a long time it was, what was his name? He came from Schroders. He's now, he's still alive, he's Lord now. Was before Cato. Just a moment, I believe, he was even before Norman, wasn't he? I think he was there after the war, wasn't he? Immediately after the war? Which war? HermannAbs C409/040101 F529A Page 4 The Second, I think,' I may be wrong. No, you may be right. Then it was, yes, then he was the successor of Norman, wasn't he? But Norman, when he died Norman? I don't know. What was Norman like? Very internationally known as an independent figure, believing in the British Commonwealth Empire, and the power of United Kingdom. And he was critical about Continental Europe, but at the same time, helpful. What was his criticism? Criticism about this unrest in Europe. This relationship of, over centuries, lasting, the relationship between France and Germany, fighting wars, since Louis XIV, Louis XV, conquering provinces in Germany, and the revenge in the Napoleon time, when Napoleon made kings out of archdukes in Germany, the King of Bavaria, the King of Wurttemberg, King of Westphalia, they were all creations of Napoleon. And after he made the big error to start a war with Russia, and it's amusing, ifI may use this word in connection with beginning of a war, he started on the very same day did Hitler start in 1941, in June '41, which was the very same day as Napoleon. Both had the same end of the war, and lost. And then again, it was the peace brought about in the Vienna Peace Conference, wherefore France, I believe, just a moment, in a symbolic ...great experienced politician of the post-1915[??] Napoleon period, I get to his name in a moment, and in Vienna, Prince Metternich, who was very important, to bring about a certain peaceful development in, in, in Europe. What I did say was the critical attitude of Norman, but at the same time, he had to protect the liquidity of the banks.