Finance and Constitution Committee Thursday 6 September 2018 Session 5 © Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Information on the Scottish Parliament’s copyright policy can be found on the website - www.parliament.scot or by contacting Public Information on 0131 348 5000 Thursday 6 September 2018 CONTENTS Col. EUROPEAN UNION (WITHDRAWAL) ACT 2018 ..................................................................................................... 1 FINANCE AND CONSTITUTION COMMITTEE 21st Meeting 2018, Session 5 CONVENER *Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) DEPUTY CONVENER *Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) COMMITTEE MEMBERS *Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) *Alexander Burnett (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) *Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) *Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) *Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP) *Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) *James Kelly (Glasgow) (Lab) *attended THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: Rt Hon David Mundell MP (Secretary of State for Scotland) CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE James Johnston LOCATION The David Livingstone Room (CR6) 1 6 SEPTEMBER 2018 2 I am satisfied with the level of engagement. UK Scottish Parliament officials are in contact with their counterparts in the devolved Administrations every day, discussing Finance and Constitution our preparations for exit. For example, since January, more than 30 further deep-dive policy Committee sessions between UK Government and devolved Administration officials have been held as part of Thursday 6 September 2018 the first phase of engagement on future common frameworks. A second phase of deep dives is [The Convener opened the meeting at 09:32] under way. European Union (Withdrawal) Act Discussions are also progressing on a range of cross-cutting issues, including the approach on 2018 trade, the internal market and governance. All of that is being guided by the framework principles The Convener (Bruce Crawford): Good agreed by all Administrations at the joint morning, and welcome to the 21st meeting in 2018 ministerial committee (European Union of the Finance and Constitution Committee. I negotiations), which will now proceed on a remind everybody to put their mobile phones on scheduled monthly basis. silent so that they do not disturb the proceedings. Since we last met, the UK Government has set The only item on our agenda today is to take out our vision for the United Kingdom outside the evidence on the European Union (Withdrawal) Act EU. The Government has also set out in a white 2018. I warmly welcome the Secretary of State for paper its plans for legislating for the withdrawal Scotland, David Mundell. Before we move to agreement. We shared information on that paper questions from the committee, do you want to with the Scottish Government at the JMC(EN) in make a short opening statement? July, well in advance of its publication. Rt Hon David Mundell MP (Secretary of State We are also, alongside the devolved for Scotland): Thank you, convener. I am pleased Administrations, taking forward a review of the to be here this morning. Since my previous existing intergovernmental structures, which I appearance before the committee in May there know is a matter of great importance to this have been a number of developments. One of the committee, and the memorandum of most significant is that the European Union understanding that is currently in existence. (Withdrawal) Bill is now an act. I deeply regret that Officials will report back to the joint ministerial the Scottish Parliament felt unable to give consent committee plenary in due course. to that important piece of legislation. To the very end, we worked constructively with the Scottish With the passage of the European Union Government and the Welsh Government to reach (Withdrawal) Act 2018, we are now confident that agreement. It is worth being clear that the our laws will function after exit. The work over the significant changes that we made to the legislation summer to publish a series of technical notices will were a result of discussions between officials and help to prepare businesses, individuals and ministers in all Administrations, and indeed families in the unlikely event that we exit without a feedback from this committee, members of deal. As we exit the EU, I remain committed to Parliament and the House of Lords. The Welsh working collaboratively with the Scottish Government and Assembly were able to support Government, this committee and this Parliament. the final agreement. Unfortunately, the Scottish The Convener: Thank you for those opening Government was unable to do the same. remarks. When you gave evidence to this Throughout, the United Kingdom Government committee on 8 November last year, you told us, upheld our commitment to the devolution in relation to agreeing common frameworks: settlements and associated conventions and acted “I am very clear that it will not be possible to achieve within their parameters. We remain fully committed legislative consent and agreement from the Scottish to devolution and will continue to seek legislative Government unless we have agreed the process by which consent, take on board views and work with the those frameworks will be agreed.”—[Official Report, Finance and Constitution Committee, 8 November 2017; c devolved Administrations on bills, according to the 7.] established practices. In further evidence on 3 May this year, you We have worked well with the Scottish reaffirmed: Government in the past and we must ensure that we continue to work well together in future. The “we are not in the business of imposing frameworks.”— [Official Report, Finance and Constitution Committee, 3 progress that we have made and are making on May 2018; c 22.] UK common frameworks is testament to that and, I hope, is indicative of our future relationship. 3 6 SEPTEMBER 2018 4 Why, then, did your Government proceed without be changed or whether we agree on the the consent of this Parliament? More importantly interpretation of those arrangements, I am perhaps, will you now give a guarantee that no confident that we can reach agreement, because common frameworks will be imposed? everyone has a common interest in doing so. An issue that I have raised before is the movement of David Mundell: As we have discussed livestock within Great Britain. I do not see a basis previously at this committee and in other on which the Scottish Government, the UK discussions, there is a degree of conflation of Government and the Welsh Assembly issues there. The European Union (Withdrawal) Government would not be able to reach Bill was about the possibility of freezing existing agreement on that. EU arrangements until new agreements had been reached. That is what section 12 of the act is The Convener: Like you, secretary of state, I about. It is not about the process for agreeing the am also interested in the content of the common frameworks. frameworks, not the process, and it is the content that I am concentrating on, because that is where My position on agreeing the frameworks is as I there will either be agreement or not be have previously stated. I want us to be in the agreement. I am asking you to provide a position where we are able to reach agreement on guarantee that, if there is no agreement, none of those frameworks—the new arrangements that will those common frameworks will be imposed. apply once we leave the EU. I believe that we are making very good progress on that. A lot of work is David Mundell: The process for agreeing the under way at the moment, some of which I have common frameworks was not part of the European outlined today. As I have said before, the big Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, so we are still going change about leaving the EU is that matters that through an evolution of what that process will be, were previously agreed with the EU by the UK will but it will be a process about reaching agreement now have to be agreed within the UK. across the United Kingdom. We may differ in relation to the role of the Scottish Parliament in The Convener: I drew those two matters determining what happens in other parts of the together because it is pretty obvious—everyone United Kingdom, because I am quite clear that the knows—that the UK Government proceeded to put Scottish Parliament does not have a veto over in place clause 11 of the bill without the consent of what would happen in other parts of the United this Parliament. Given that that is the history that Kingdom, but I am determined that what happens we are dealing with, I seek a guarantee from you in Scotland in relation to devolved matters should that no common frameworks will be imposed on proceed on the basis of agreement. Scotland. The Convener: I have tried to secure that David Mundell: Obviously, to some extent I do guarantee, but I have not been able to get to the not accept the premise of the question, because position that I had hoped we would manage to get no common framework has been imposed on to today. Scotland. I think that Alexander Burnett is interested in The Convener: Yet. common frameworks as well. David Mundell: The provisions of the European Alexander Burnett (Aberdeenshire West) Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018—clause 11 as it was (Con): Most of that has been covered, but I just and section 12 as it has become—allow for wondered whether there is a timetable for the existing arrangements to be frozen while new completion of the common frameworks that you agreements are negotiated. It is still absolutely my are able to share. position and that of the UK Government that we want to reach those frameworks by agreement. David Mundell: There is not a timetable as such. In fact, it was agreed by the JMC(EN) that The Convener: If no agreement is reached, will work would carry on across the whole of those 24 a common framework be imposed? areas pretty much in unison, but clearly there are David Mundell: We do not want to be in a some areas where there is a need for a degree of position where we do not have agreement.