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T-47-Red2-ENG ICC-01/05-01/08-T-47-Red2-ENG CT2 WT 14-01-2011 1/50 SZ T ICC-01/05-01/08-T-47-Red-ENG CT2 WT 14-01-2011 1/50 PV T Pursuant to Trial Chamber III ‘s Second Order, ICC-01/05-01/08-2223, dated 4 June 2012, and the instructions in the email dated 7 October 2013, the version of the transcript with its redactions becomes Public Trial Hearing (Open Session) ICC-01/05-01/08 1 International Criminal Court 2 Trial Chamber III - Courtroom 1 3 Situation: Central African Republic 4 In the case of The Prosecutor v. Jean-Pierre Bemba Gombo - ICC-01/05-01/08 5 Presiding Judge Sylvia Steiner, Judge Joyce Aluoch and Judge Kuniko Ozaki 6 Trial Hearing 7 Friday, 14 January 2011 8 (The hearing starts in open session at 9.41 a.m.) 9 THE COURT USHER: All rise. The International Criminal Court is now in session. 10 PRESIDING JUDGE STEINER: Please be seated. 11 THE COURT OFFICER: Good morning your Honours, Madam President. We are 12 in open session. 13 PRESIDING JUDGE STEINER: Good morning. Good morning, everyone. I 14 would like to welcome the Prosecution team; legal representatives of victims, Maître 15 Douzima, Maître Zarambaud; the representatives of OPCV; the Defence team, 16 Mr Jean-Pierre Bemba Gombo; our interpreters. And I will ask, please, the court 17 officer to call the case. 18 THE COURT OFFICER: Yes, Madam President. Situation in the Central African 19 Republic, in the case of The Prosecutor versus Jean-Pierre Bemba Gombo, case 20 reference ICC-01/05-01/08. 21 PRESIDING JUDGE STEINER: Thank you very much. 22 So we are going to continue with the questioning of Witness 87 by the Defence team 23 and, for that purpose, 24 I ask please the court officer to turn briefly into closed session in order for the witness 25 to be brought in. 14.01.2011 Page 1 ICC-01/05-01/08-T-47-Red2-ENG CT2 WT 14-01-2011 2/50 SZ T ICC-01/05-01/08-T-47-Red-ENG CT2 WT 14-01-2011 2/50 PV T Pursuant to Trial Chamber III ‘s Second Order, ICC-01/05-01/08-2223, dated 4 June 2012, and the instructions in the email dated 7 October 2013, the version of the transcript with its redactions becomes Public Trial Hearing (Closed Session) ICC-01/05-01/08 1 (Closed session at 9.43 a.m.) Reclassified as open session 2 MR KAUFMAN: Madam President, if it's possible whilst the witness is being 3 brought into court, if I may make just one brief comment or submission. 4 PRESIDING JUDGE STEINER: Of course. It has to be done in closed session? 5 MR KAUFMAN: It's very brief, Madam President. It is just -- okay. I just don't 6 want -- 7 THE COURT OFFICER: Just for the record of the case, we are in closed session now. 8 MR KAUFMAN: Okay. 9 PRESIDING JUDGE STEINER: So you have the floor, Mr Kaufman. 10 MR KAUFMAN: Madam President, of course it's the Prosecution's right to object to 11 questions of the Defence if the Prosecution feels that they are inappropriate. All we 12 would respectfully ask is that when objections are made that the witness remove the 13 headphones from her head so she doesn't hear the translation of what's going on. 14 That's all. 15 PRESIDING JUDGE STEINER: It's a quite peculiar request. 16 MR KAUFMAN: Well, I'll explain why, Madam President. Because sometimes in 17 the reasoning given by the Prosecutor for her objection there might contain or -- the 18 answer to the question that we are seeking or the response to the Prosecution wishes 19 to elicit from that very witness. And by -- if the matter is being translated to the 20 witness at the time, then we feel that that might perhaps impede the authenticity of 21 any potential answer that she might give. 22 If I just may add that in certain jurisdictions - of course, this Chamber will decide 23 what's appropriate for its own purposes - when objections are made concerning 24 points of evidence it is appropriate times that juries, if there is a jury sitting, are taken 25 out of the Chamber and the witnesses of course. 14.01.2011 Page 2 ICC-01/05-01/08-T-47-Red2-ENG CT2 WT 14-01-2011 3/50 SZ T ICC-01/05-01/08-T-47-Red-ENG CT2 WT 14-01-2011 3/50 PV T Pursuant to Trial Chamber III ‘s Second Order, ICC-01/05-01/08-2223, dated 4 June 2012, and the instructions in the email dated 7 October 2013, the version of the transcript with its redactions becomes Public Trial Hearing (Closed Session) ICC-01/05-01/08 1 PRESIDING JUDGE STEINER: Madam Kneuer? 2 MS KNEUER: Madam President, your Honours, the Prosecution is of the opinion 3 that in certain situations it may be appropriate that legal arguments in general, not 4 only objections, should not be discussed in front of a witness. 5 However, with regards to what my colleague is referring to, all objections yesterday 6 I think did not trigger a measure to exclude the witness from hearing these objections 7 or arguments. In particular, since the objections regarding misrepresentation of 8 evidence is nothing that should be hidden before the witness. 9 If my learned colleague would have quoted the record properly, then there wouldn't 10 be a problem and I think it's actually appropriate to confront or to read to the witness 11 a part of either her statement or the record because that's what she said. It's her 12 testimony. 13 So I don't think it's conclusive what my learned colleague submitted to that extent. 14 If there is a situation which requires a decision, I think your Honours should take this 15 decision on a case-by-case basis. Thank you. 16 (Trial Chamber confers) 17 PRESIDING JUDGE STEINER: So in principle, Mr Kaufman, the Chamber is of the 18 view that in some circumstances for discussion on legal issues or very complex issues 19 there is no need for the witness even to be present, and would even facilitate 20 interpretation and legal terms and the parties and participants can discuss without 21 even the presence of the witness, but in relation to objections I think the Chamber 22 prefers to decide on a case-by-case basis instead of establishing the rule ordering the 23 witness to take off the headphones because I don't think this is, let's say, a healthy 24 measure to be taken in advance every time we have an objection. 25 The Chamber will be more attentive to -- in case it happens that it understands that 14.01.2011 Page 3 ICC-01/05-01/08-T-47-Red2-ENG CT2 WT 14-01-2011 4/50 SZ T ICC-01/05-01/08-T-47-Red-ENG CT2 WT 14-01-2011 4/50 PV T Pursuant to Trial Chamber III ‘s Second Order, ICC-01/05-01/08-2223, dated 4 June 2012, and the instructions in the email dated 7 October 2013, the version of the transcript with its redactions becomes Public Trial Hearing (Open Session) ICC-01/05-01/08 Witness: CAR-OTP-PPPP-0087 1 the Prosecution is leading the witness, or anticipating an answer, or influencing a 2 witness in its response. I think it's better if the parties conduct their questioning and 3 objections in a way that is not disruptive to the hearing. 4 Court officer, please introduce the witness into the courtroom. 5 (The witness enters the courtroom) 6 PRESIDING JUDGE STEINER: Court officer, could we turn into open session, 7 please. 8 (Open session at 9.50 a.m.) 9 THE COURT OFFICER: We are in open session, Madam President. 10 PRESIDING JUDGE STEINER: Thank you very much. 11 WITNESS: CAR-OTP-PPPP-0087 (On former oath) 12 (The witness speaks Sango) 13 PRESIDING JUDGE STEINER: Good morning, Madam Witness. 14 THE WITNESS: (Interpretation) Good morning, your Honour. 15 PRESIDING JUDGE STEINER: Did we have interpretation? Yes, thanks. We 16 hope that you rested during the night and that you are feeling well to continue with 17 your testimony today. 18 THE WITNESS: (Interpretation) Yes, I did rest, and I am in good form today. 19 PRESIDING JUDGE STEINER: This is very good. The Chamber needs to remind 20 you of a couple of things. First, that you continue under protective measures, having 21 your image and your voice distorted to the public so the public cannot identify you. 22 You also have a supporting person at your side and we would like to remind you that 23 any time you need a break, if you feel tired or distressed, you just ask the Chamber 24 and we will grant you any breaks you need. Do you understand that? 25 THE WITNESS: (Interpretation) Yes, I've understood. 14.01.2011 Page 4 ICC-01/05-01/08-T-47-Red2-ENG CT2 WT 14-01-2011 5/50 SZ T ICC-01/05-01/08-T-47-Red-ENG CT2 WT 14-01-2011 5/50 PV T Pursuant to Trial Chamber III ‘s Second Order, ICC-01/05-01/08-2223, dated 4 June 2012, and the instructions in the email dated 7 October 2013, the version of the transcript with its redactions becomes Public Trial Hearing (Open Session) ICC-01/05-01/08 Witness: CAR-OTP-PPPP-0087 1 PRESIDING JUDGE STEINER: And finally, Madam Witness, the Chamber needs to 2 remind you that you are still under oath.
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