______SYNOPSIS OF DEBATE ______(Proceedings other than Questions and Answers) ______Tuesday, December 01, 2015/ Agrahayana 10, 1937 (Saka) ______

Discussion on Commitment to ’s Constitution as Part of the 125th Birth Anniversary Celebration of Dr. B.R. Ambedkar - Contd.

SHRI RAJEEV CHANDRASEKHAR: We must be proud of our Constitution and thankful to our founding fathers for it. The Constitution envisaged a nation lived by the rule of law with equal rights and justice for all without any discrimination, freedom of expression and property rights. But rule of law is ineffective and repeatedly violated. Delayed justice is threatening the whole idea of citizenship. Violence has been repeatedly used as a political tool for several decades. Our Constitution and vision of our founding fathers continues to be violated and vitiated in states, institutions and around the country. In the last 75 years, the rule of law is being violated. We are still struggling to deal with the basic issue of poverty and justice even after 70 years of Independence. We should stay engaged in ensuring development, prosperity, equity and justice for all. A lot more needs to be done than making flowery speeches and help in transforming the country. SHRI K.C. TYAGI: Sincere efforts are needed in building of a country and society. Founding fathers of the ______This Synopsis is not an authoritative record of the proceedings of the Rajya Sabha. 42 gave their best in framing this Constitution. We are tolerant people who have respect for one and all. Pt. Jawahar Lal Nehru is the founder of modern India. There is no place for religion-based theocratic state in Kashmir. It is and will always remain integral part of India. The people of Kashmir will never accept two-nation theory. Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru and Mahatma Gandhiji inspired Muslims of Kashmir to stay in India. There is no speaker from Muslims in Legislative Assemblies. There has been no Chief of Naval Staff from Muslims. Had DR. Ambedkar been alive, he would have never said that authority of religion should be imposed on politics and the Government. He would have never said that emotionality should dominate over rationality. We do not support your economic reforms. You have our support on coal and mines. Everybody contributed in the struggle for freedom which included Gandhi, Indira Gandhi, Jawaharlal along with them, we also contributed in this struggle. It is a shared inheritance. SHRI DEREK O’BRIEN: Our constitution is one of the most inclusive, idealistic and most egalitarian books which has been written in the last 5000 years. The Constitution of the America is the shortest and we have the longest constitution in the world. We were the 25th country who got the Constitution and after us 150 more countries got their constitutions. Dr. Ambedkar made tremendous contribution to the Constitution of India. On this great occasion, along with celebration, it is time to have some reflection as well. Currently, one million manual scavengers are working in the country. That's why it is time to reflect. Our monumental constitution was prepared in under three years time. But for us, the Women Reservation Bill is pending for the last 19 years, same is the issue with GST. The work ethics is the second issue, which should be reflected upon. The constituent assembly did a great job, the members of the same were selected indirectly from the states. So in a way, they were precursors to this Rajya Sabha. That is the very basis of this Constitution. We must all respect this aspect. The importance of the Rajya Sabha should be respected, which is being compromised as shown by the number of ordinances issued recently. The Constituent Assembly was formed in 1948 and most of the drafting was done from 43

1948 to 1949, and Dr. Ambedkar gave his famous speech in November 1949. We all should respect the Constitution and its supremacy. Ms. Mamta Banerjee and the Prime Minister stated that the constitution is the only holy book. Another issue is about Federalism, and Secularism, which should be strengthened. In our Constitution, the concepts of liberty, equality and fraternity have been included, which were taken from French, the concept of Directive principals, included in the Constitution, were taken from Irish, the judicial concept was taken from Japan, the concept of Federalism was taken from Canada and Australia and whereas we adopted the concept of Planning commission from Soviet Union. In this regard I would like to suggest setting up of a Constituent Assembly Module, where the young generation can learn about the Constitution. SHRIMATI SASIKALA PUSHPA: .(Spoke in Tamil) SHRI RAMDAS ATHAWALE: Dr. Baba Saheb Ambedkar gave Constitution to the country. As Chairman of Drafting Committee, Dr. Baba Saheb Ambedkar did a spectacular job in it. When on 26th November, 1949 Dr. Baba Saheb Ambedkar presented the draft of the Constitution to Dr. Rajender Prasad and Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru, they said, "Baba Saheb Ambedkar, you are the real architect of the Constitution." He constituted " Bahishkrit Hitkarini Sabha". Baba Saheb Ambedkar continued to organise movement, he kept on presenting his views on equality before the people. He opposed casteism. Earlier caste system was based on work and not on birth. In original Hindu religion, caste system was based on work but later on 6400 castes came into being in the country and therefore, atmosphere of inequality developed in the country.Baba Saheb Ambedkar's philosophy was based on equality. Baba Saheb Ambedkar taught us that country is bigger than our language, religion, village and district. To strengthen the unity of India, Baba Saheb Ambedkar gave us constitution. I want to say this much that untouchability will not go by ______. Synopsis of speech delivered by Hon’ble Member in Tamil will be published separately as supplement. 44 making law only. There is law, but still atrocities are being committed in every village. This Government has declared to celebrate 26th November as 'Constitution Day' every year. All the people have been given opportunity to express their views. Constitution is very good but people implementing it should also be good.Now, you should support all the bills and also give suggestions. It is not going to do any good by playing the role of opposition only. Therefore, you have to run the house collectively in a nice way. Atrocities are to be removed as envisaged in the Constitution of India. The constitution provided by Baba Saheb Ambedkar provides justice for all sections of society, therefore, discussion is being held on Constitution. For this, I salute the Government. You should cooperate with us. SHRI JESUDASU SEELAM: I stand here to pay my rich tributes to Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel, Babu Rajendra Prasad, Maulana Azad and other Members of the Constituent Assembly, who laboriously gave us this piece of document which helped us throughout these years to live in peace, tranquility and keep the brotherhood alive. Today, especially on the year-long celebrations of 125th Birth Anniversary of Dr. Ambedkar, I would like to state that he was a great visionary. Dr. Ambedkar has very rightly done a beautiful thing. If you look at the editing of the Constitution, first 51 Articles are about the people, the citizens, the States, the Centre, the Fundamental Rights, the Directive Principles of State Policy, and, then, comes the President. It is 'the people' who have been given prime position while framing the Constitution. The people are the centrepiece of the Constitution. There are cardinal areas, that is, democracy, secularism, equality, liberty and justice. All these are there but equality is the core idea of Dr. Ambedkar. We are not saying that contradictions are not there now. There are contradictions. We are having liberty in order to reform our social system, which is so full of inequities, so full of inequalities, discrimination and other things, which conflict with our Fundamental Rights. Ultimately, the sovereignty of scriptures of all

45 religions must come to an end, if you want to have a united, integrated modern India. He was a visionary. In 1955, he predicted that Bihar would be bifurcated, that Madhya Pradesh would be bifurcated. It happened after so many years. Mr. Venkaiah Naidu was telling about the regional imbalances, that Hyderabad should be the second capital of India because of its strategic location. So many Defence undertakings are there. So, I want to ask Mr. Venkaiah Naidu, is it not that in this House every political party was present on that day and is it not the commitment of every political party to make a pre-condition of giving a 'Special Category' status to which was deprived of the resources, which had to shift the entire machinery to a new place? It would have to make a new beginning in all respects. It is not important which party the Prime Minister belongs to. It is an institution. It is a Government assurance. That day, none of the political parties raised any objections. Now, how come there are alibis? The 'Special Category' status was announced to compensate the irreversible loss the Andhra Pradesh State Government is going to experience, both financial and otherwise. We have a lot many legislations for the weaker sections of the society. But every court is just interpreting the way which is not beneficial to the interest of these weaker sections. The Reservation Act was passed by the Rajya Sabha and then, the Lok Sabha got dissolved. It has to be taken up again. SHRI TIRUCHI SIVA: According to the views of several scholars of the world the average life of a national Constitution is only 17 years in the past 200 years. In the light of the above fact, our Constitution has stood the test of time and has endured for the past 66 years. This is because of the great job done by the Constituent Assembly and the Drafting Committee. Constitution, I think, has survived many times with around 100 amendments, and our Constitution is still an example of one of the best in the world. Ambedkar is hailed across the world. His sayings and his writings are being celebrated even by Britain. On behalf of our Party we have made a suggestion that the name of Alladi Krishnaswamy Iyer should 46 be included in the Resolution which we are going to pass after this discussion. Ever since the freedom struggle, the South Indians have not been given the proper recognition. Dr. Ambedkar had said that caste and creed discrimination is there. But we feel that region-wise discrimination still continues in our country. Dr. Rajendra Prasad himself has confessed that Dr. Ambedkar's contribution in drafting of the Constitution was immense. But the credit must also be given to Mr. S.N. Mukherjee. Dr. Ambedkar's analysis of great social inequalities in our nation which has led to the exploitation of the suppressed caste is recognised across the world today. I am very proud to mention about Maoist leaders giving up violence recently mainly because of the impact of Dr. Ambedkar's thoughts on their thinking. Dr. Ambedkar requested Indians to resort to constitutional methods for achieving economic and social goals. I would make a request to all the political parties to take the vow on this day, when we are celebrating Constitution Day, that we would place the country above everything else. SHRI D. RAJA: History has been witnessing many twists and turns. A man who burned down Manusmriti emerged as the prime architect of Indian Constitution. The former President of India, Shri K.R. Narayanan has called Dr. Ambedkar a compassionate rebel. Dr. Ambedkar did not succumb to pressures of the situation which prevailed during the making of our Constitution. Dr. Ambedkar was very firm that India should emerge as a Democratic Republic and it should not adopt Presidential form of Government. Dr. Ambedkar was very clear that every Government, should be a responsible Government rather than a stable Government Dr. Ambedkar joined the Constituent Assembly to protect the interests of the Scheduled Castes. The Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes are untouchables in the name of a holy book, Manusmriti. I want social justice in the name of Dr. Ambedkar. I am asking whether the Government is ready to follow this discussion with concrete legislative measures. The Government will have to consider extending the policy of reservation to private sector. Private sector takes everything from the Government. They must abide by the law of 47 the land. The atrocities against the SCs and STs are on the increase. The law, which is pending, needs to be passed immediately. Dr. Ambedkar fought for gender equality. Women's reservation is one of the measures for which Parliament should pass the law. SHRI HUSAIN DALWAI: Right to equality has been given in the constitution drafted by Baba Saheb Ambedkar. The constitution was drafted in adverse circumstances. However, this constitution has given Right to Vote to Dalits, uneducated people, tribal and minorities. Still the plight of the Dalits are pathetic. Dr. Ambedkar said that if we have to save this country, we must advocate for inter- caste marriage. We follow Gandhiji, but the Gandhiji who opposed untouchability and advocated for inter-caste marriage. But we don't follow the Gandhi who supported the Four Varnas System. We must join hands with those who have faith in our constitution. SHRI A.V. SWAMY: The Indian Constitution is the outcome of dedicated dialogue and discussions of great patriots, leading scholars, freedom fighters and members of the Constituent Assembly. It has made untouchability illegal in the country, protected the rights of Dalits, Tribals and Backward Classes, protected women's security and rights, abolished Zamindari system and helped land reforms .November 26th is a very significant day. On this day, we have collectively declared ourselves as sovereign citizens of this country. But observation of 26th November should not remain an event of celebration of 125th Birth Anniversary of the architect of the Constitution. It should be an annual event for dedication to the principles of citizen's commitment. SHRI ANIL DESAI: Dr. Ambedkar encountered innumerable humiliation. But while drafting the Constitution he did not think on the lines of sufferings। He came out with a wholesome Constitution which has brought India to this level. As a social reformer he did his best. He was a hero of minorities. As regards the inequality, there were social evils in the society. Our leader Balaji always believes that caste will act as the biggest barrier which will prevent us from making progress. Today Reservation system is there 48 but we should debate that whether it really goes to the people who are in need of them.There may be a divide between the castes but it is the duty of the Government to see to it that this is not widened further. It is the progress of the people of India which should be ensured. We have unity in diversity .This is the main motto of the Indian Constitution. With unity in diversity we will come out not only as the largest democracy in the world but also as the strongest democracy in the world. DR. BHALCHANDRA MUNGEKAR: I pay my humble tribute to Dr. Ambedkar. Dr. Ambedkar wanted an India based on the principles of liberty, equality, fraternity and justice. The question is have we lived up to Dr. Ambedkar's that idea. We must debate and discuss that. He struggled throughout his life for the annihilation of caste system. He described caste as a hurdle in the path of social reforms, economic progress and national unity. I always fail to understand why is it so that of all the political parties and hundreds of organizations the principle of secularism is bothering only one particular political party. I stand for the passing of the Uniform Civil Code at the earliest, but it should not be for the vested interests. Dr. Ambedkar dealt with every single problem facing the modern Indian nation-State and suggested the solutions. The solutions obviously require modifications. Dr. Ambedkar wanted an egalitarian, compassionate and tolerant society. Like mixed economy, there cannot be mixed nationalism. If all the instances of hate and intolerance are viewed and examined in a broader political and theoretical perspective, these are symptoms of a greater danger awaiting the nation. If the right to dissent is the essence of democracy, suppression of the dissent is the essence of fascism. If pluralism and tolerance are the essence of democracy, homogenization and intolerance are the hallmarks of fascism. If the atmosphere of hate, intolerance and attempt to target a specific community, continues to remain uncontrolled, India will be, unfortunately leading to the road of neo-fascism and that will be a disaster.

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SHRI T.K. RANGARAJAN: (Spoke in Tamil) SHRI NARESH GUJRAL: Apart from being a great legal luminary, Dr. Ambedkar was a visionary, a social reformer whose monumental work continues to shape and protect the rights of our countrymen, especially, the weak and the deprived.When we celebrate our Constitution, we naturally salute those freedom fighters, who sacrificed their lives, their youth and their freedom so that future generations could breathe free. As early as 1849, Sikh forces fought the Imperial forces. In fact, that was the first war of Independence. Freedom fighters’ commitment, sacrifices and leadership ensured the country attaining our freedom and then our Constitution under the guidance of Babasaheb. In 1975, when emergency was imposed, all our senior leaders, voluntarily went to jail and more than two-thirds were Sikhs and Punjabis. We are proud of that. In 1984, thousands of Sikhs were massacred on the streets of Delhi and elsewhere. The Government of the day miserably failed to protect the lives and property of a minority community. I would urge the Government of the day to make it possible to turn all the wrongs of the past to rights. Give the Sikhs justice. The 1980s and the 1990s saw Punjab in flames. It took us twenty long years to bring normalcy back to Punjab. Peace and harmony in the Punjab are again at stake. PROF. MRINAL MIRI: The first point is about the idea of tolerance. It is my view that the appropriate language for this is not tolerance, but ‘acceptance and respect’ – ‘acceptance of another religion’, not in the sense of adopting it as one’s own, but as an authentic and ongoing perspective on life and the world. Such understanding takes us much beyond tolerance. My second related point is about our attitude towards our tribal cultures. A tribal culture constitutes a distinct way of being wholly human. And respect for plurality means respect for different ways of being human. Religious

______ Synopsis of speech delivered by Hon’ble Member in Tamil will be published separately as supplement. 50 conversion seems to violate the constitutional principle of acceptance of plurality. DR. TAZEEN FATMA: It is a matter of pride that we are remembering Dr. Bhimrao Ambedkar on his 125th birth anniversary. 284 members signed on the draft of constitution on 26th November, 1949. Directive principles of State policy clearly state that India is a sovereign, socialist, secular democratic republic. Inclusion of word 'secular' in preamble of our constitution was important .Upholding the fundamental values of the constitution would be the real homage to Baba Saheb. CHAUDHARY MUNVVAR SALEEM: Dr. Ambedkar was a great constitution expert and a great human being. There have been many instances of untouchability. We accepted nationalism instead of religious fanaticism. Celebration of 'Constitution Day' would be meaningful if intolerant persons holding constitutional posts are expelled from their positions. SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Dr. Ambedkar was one of the greatest Constitutional experts that India has ever produced. The constitution that he drafted was the product of the great education that he received at the University of Columbia.Secularism is the triumph of education over reality. It is the triumph of knowledge over ignorance; it is the triumph of science over religion. Secularism is very important part of Constitution of India. Our ultimate object is to create uniformity of laws and override every religious text to the contrary. Columbia University honoured Dr. Ambedkar with degree of Doctor of Laws for his role in drafting of Constitution of India. Dr. Ambedkar told us that the purpose of all law and legislation in Parliament is ultimately to reduce human pain and suffering. SHRI DEVENDER GOUD T.: The efficacy of constitution depends on the people who implement it. Babasaheb Ambedkar was the architecture for fundamental rights, reservation for SC/STs and OBCs and demarcation of duties and responsibilities between the Centre and States. Only two recommendations of Mandal Commission for OBCs have been implemented. Even after seven decades of 51 existence of our Parliamentary democracy we could not achieve some of the goals like poverty alleviation, equal opportunities in education, employment, health, etc. I urge the Government to implement the Constitution properly. SHRI K.N. BALAGOPAL: When we celebrate the 125th Birth Anniversay of the great man, Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar, we have to look into the experiences of the Constitution and what problems have been there while implementing it. While initiating the discussion here, the Hon'ble Minister, Shri Arun Jaitley, spoke some points about intolerance of the then Indira Gandhi Government, in the 1970s. That was a bad experience for our country. But the present Government is also following the same kind of intolerance, and we have to look into the experiences of the past days. This intolerance is to be curtailed and the Government has to take steps to stop those intolerant activities. As far GST, after the passing of this Bill, no State Finance Minister will get any power or any State Government will not charge any taxes. The Union Government is concentrating all the powers in its hands. Another point is about the power of making treaties. On international treaties, we have to look at our Constitution once again. We have to rectify this area in the Constitution. SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU: Param Pujya Baba Saheb Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar's 49th death anniversary will be observed on December 6. Somebody can forget the role of Ambedkar in Indian Constitution and its evolution, but his contribution to the Indian society is the greatest one. The downtrodden lowest caste has got morale and confidence with the approach of Dr. Bhimrao Ambedkar and with that the secularisation of religions has started. This is the greatest social reform in India that occurred due to Dr. B. R. Ambedkar. We have to learn this essence in the evolution of administration. SHRI ALI ANWAR ANSARI: Hon'ble Minister of Finance had raised some points while quoting Justice Rangnath Mishra Commission. Even Hon'ble Prime Minister tried to make Dalits and Muslims fight among themselves by quoting a speech of one of our leaders of 2006. He tried to terrorise Hindus and Dalits by saying that 52 he wants to snatch your reservation and give it to Muslims. But Dalits voted us more vehemently and made our alliance victorious. But we feel that BJP has not learnt any lesson. Regarding castes among Muslims Baba Saheb has written that though the slavery has gone but castes are still there among Muslims. THE MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY (SHRI RAVI SHANKAR PRASAD): I had been listening to this debate for the last two days. Some points were raised to which I want to reply at the very outset. Some Members asked as to wherefrom came this 26th November? Constitution gives reply to this question. If you once go through the Preamble of the Constitution, you will find the answer. This date of 26th November is given in Indian Constitution. A mention of 26th January was also made. It is mentioned somewhere in Article 393 or 394. I am not quoting that Article here due to constraint of time. The Hon'ble Leader of Opposition asked that where from came this notification? I would like to tell that the decision to celebrate 125th Birth Anniversary of Ambedkar Saheb was taken by a Committee formed under the Chairmanship of Prime Minister on 23rd July, 2015. The more I read about Ambedkar Saheb, the more I feel respect for him. I salute Ambedkar ji. I also salute Jawahar Lal Nehru, Dr. Rajendra Prasad, Sardar Vallabh Bhai Patel, Maulana Azad and the interim President of this whole Constituent Assembly Dr. Sachchidanand Sinha. I would like to put forth one more name of Shri Ram Nath Goenka who has signed in the last. He was the founder of "Indian Express". He kept alive the whole spirit of the Constitution. A lot has been said with respect to Ambedkar ji and I am not going to repeat it. Dr. Ambedkar never allowed to reflect his agony or personal experiences in the Constitution while the Constitution was being framed. I am his greatest fan on this account. It was a dream of Ambedkar ji that India would go beyond a democracy to political democracy. 66 years have lapsed since then. I started my political journey as a student activist. I saw JP movement and fought against Emergency. After the country's experience of 1975, no leader would ever dare to impose emergency. He would not curtail 53 the rights of people. I want to raise a question very humbly. Everyone accepts that Dr. Ambedkar was a gem of the country. Dr. Ambedkar died in 1956 but why he was awarded Bharat Ratna in 1990? Sardar Patel died in 1950 but he was awarded Bharat Ratna in 1991 after 41 years of his death. Why a period of 41 years was taken to award Bharat Ratna to such a big patriot? This will have to be answered at some point of time in future. What type of tolerance was that? Maulana Azad died in 1959 but he was awarded Bharat Ratna in 1992. What does it mean? Why Lok Nayak Jai Prakash Narayan was not awarded Bharat Ratna? He was awarded Bharat Ratna in 1998 during the regime of Atal Bihari Vajpayee Government. Lots of injustices have been committed in the country and this should be debated. We will work according to the Constitution of India. "Secularism" means to respect all the beliefs. Nandlal Bose made a number of intaglios in The Constitution of India before its printing. All members signed on it after that. It should be understood that the complete debate on "secularism" has got stuck somewhere in the delusion. People talking about tolerance should not remain silent about incidents on Kashmiri pandits in Kashmir. We should listen to the people who have concerns. Hindustan belongs to all, The Hindus, The Muslims, The Tribals, The North Indians, The South Indians. Atrocities on dalits have not stopped, these are still occurring, we all have to put it right collectively. A new constructive Hindustan is in making. We should respect new heroes of the country. Hindustan is changing at the grass root level. With regard to Separation of Power, I would like to say that We respect Judiciary, the judgement of the Supreme Court have to be honoured, but people of this country had told to their representatives that this should be changed. Judicial independence we welcome, but judicial accountability is equally important. We have to think about it. Dalit system is unfortunate, wrong and against the traditions of India. It is an anomaly or weakness too of the Hindu society, Dr. 54

Ambedkar provided reservation in education, in employment and in election for them. I have to give clarification regarding dalit christen too. We oppose it on two counts, first it is not constitutional and second, it will have an impact on the present quota for dalits. We have to look at the future optimistically.

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SHUMSHER K. SHERIFF, Secretary-General. [email protected] ______****Supplement covering rest of the proceedings is being issued Separately.

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