Vol. 793 Monday No. 202 5 November 2018

PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDEROFBUSINESS

Deaths of Members...... 1527 Questions Devolution: Sheffield City Region...... 1527 Ex-Offenders: Training and Employment...... 1530 Pornographic Websites: Age Verification...... 1532 Design Engineer Construct Programme ...... 1534 Knife Crime Private Notice Question ...... 1537 Further Education Bodies (Insolvency) Regulations 2018 Motion to Approve ...... 1540 Armistice Day: Centenary Motion to Take Note...... 1540 Brexit: Arrangements for EU Citizens Statement...... 1568 Universal Credit Statement...... 1571 Armistice Day: Centenary Motion to Take Note (Continued) ...... 1583

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No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2018, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1527 Deaths of Members [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Devolution: Sheffield City Region 1528

House of Lords My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has indicated to the Select Committee that he will be Monday 5 November 2018 making a Statement on devolution in general during 2.30 pm the autumn. I do not think that he has any specific plans to meet the four city leaders as the way forward Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Coventry. is quite clear regarding the statutory requirements. Deaths of Members Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op): My Lords, Announcement I draw the House’s attention to my relevant interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. 2.37 pm As the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, said, we are at an The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, I impasse. When is the Minister going to do something regret to inform the House of the death of the noble about it? Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, on 2 November. On behalf of the House, I extend our sincere condolences to the Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord’s family and friends. noble Lord for the very brief question. As I have indicated, and in fairness to the city mayor, he is trying I also regret to inform the House of the death on to ensure that the consultation takes place, because 4 November of Lord Heywood of Whitehall, who had that is the necessary next statutory step according to not yet had the opportunity to take his seat. On behalf the legal advice that he and we have received. The of the House, I pay tribute to his outstanding record legislation has gone through both Houses. The way of public service, and I extend our condolences to forward is for that to happen. More widely, it is worth Lord Heywood’s family and friends. remembering that a third of England is now covered by devolution deals, including London. As I have Devolution: Sheffield City Region indicated, the Secretary of State will be making a Question statement shortly, during the autumn.

2.37 pm Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con): My Lords, surely Asked by Lord Scriven it is important to note that the local authorities concerned To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action in South Yorkshire were very keen on having devolution. they are taking to ensure that the Sheffield City They were the ones who pressed for it, and the Region Devolution Deal comes to fruition. Government responded, as the Government will always do. Is it not now for those authorities and the elected The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry mayor to work with the Government to get that devolution of Housing, Communities and Local Government and concluded? Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con): My Lords, the Government’s priority remains completing Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I thank my the Sheffield City Region devolution deal, which would noble friend for that. It is true to say that the four local bring £900 million of investment to that region. To authorities came forward with proposals—we progress achieve this, the next step is for the Sheffield City these deals only if there is consent among local authorities. Region to undertake the statutory consultation on the As I said, the mayor is seeking to progress the deal, as, powers to be devolved and we will continue to support in fairness, are two of the local authorities, Sheffield the city region mayor in his commitment to implement and Rotherham. The other two, Doncaster and Barnsley, this deal. are not doing so at the moment, but they need to do so for us to progress it. It has been through both Houses Lord Scriven (LD): I thank the Minister for that of Parliament; considerable time and energy have Answer and I bring to the House’s attention my interest been invested on it. declared in the register as a member of Sheffield City Council. It is clear that there is stalemate: the four Lord Newby (LD): My Lords, can the Minister tell local authority leaders in South Yorkshire cannot us the timetable for the consultation to be undertaken agree a way forward. Despite the fact that the order and concluded? for the election has been through this House, the order for the powers and the money have not. In the light of Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, as I said, that, when will the Secretary of State meet the four we have not yet progressed the consultation because leaders and the elected mayor of the Sheffield City two of the local authorities are unwilling to do so. Region, as he has not done so since he became the Once they have agreed to it, I think the consultation Secretary of State six months ago? If the leaders will be straightforward; it is about the precise shape of cannot find a way forward in this stalemate, will a the deal. I do not have the precise time limits, but I will timescale be put on before the deal is withdrawn? write to the noble Lord and copy the letter to the Library. Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Lord’s service to Sheffield City Baroness Pinnock (LD): My Lords, the Minister Council—indeed, as leader at one stage. Regarding said in a previous reply that a third of the population the deal, the best legal advice given both to the mayor of England has a devolution deal, yet Yorkshire, with and to us is that consultation is necessary, so that is the a 5 million population, has no deal at all, although next statutory step and it is what we are pressing for. there is a desire from both South Yorkshire and the 1529 Devolution: Sheffield City Region[LORDS] Ex-Offenders: Training and Employment 1530

[BARONESS PINNOCK] Lord Lexden (Con): My Lords, are there any other whole of Yorkshire for a deal. When will the Government examples of deadlock elsewhere in the country blocking open the dam to allow a deal to occur, because there is progress towards city deals? real desire in Yorkshire to take on the responsibilities that the Government could devolve to it? Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, the only other example until recently was in relation to Tyneside, where south Tyneside, Gateshead and the Durham Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, Sheffield is authorities, including Sunderland, could not agree certainly in Yorkshire, and there is a deal there that we with north Tyneside; but we moved forward with seek to take forward; it has been through both Houses. north Tyneside on its own and with special arrangements As for the rest of Yorkshire, as I said, the Secretary of in relation to the transport authority. State will be making a Statement on devolution in general. I have also said that nothing can happen in relation to broader Yorkshire until the Sheffield deal Ex-Offenders: Training and Employment moves forward. Question 2.45 pm Lord Watts (Lab): My Lords, given the failure of Asked by Lord Lee of Trafford vocational training, would it not make sense to transfer all vocational training to mayors and to local areas To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans that do not have a mayor? they have to provide greater training and employment opportunities for ex-offenders.

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, as the Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con): My Lords, our noble Lord will be aware, the former is largely already Education and Employment Strategy was published in happening. For example, with Sheffield, training is May this year. Governors are being empowered to moving forward; it is part of the essence of devolution commission education provision that leads to work, deals. I do not think that it would really rest with and we are building better links between prisons and smaller authorities, but with devolution deals, the businesses to ensure that those who leave prison are noble Lord has a very good point. ready for work. We have launched the New Futures Network to engage and persuade employers to take on ex-prisoners. Lord Lansley (Con): My Lords, perhaps my noble friend can enlighten me. Am I right in thinking that all Lord Lee of Trafford (LD): My Lords, I welcome the authorities concerned and the elected mayor are these initiatives and acknowledge freely that David Labour? In my area, Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, Gauke and Rory Stewart are much more enlightened we have Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative and progressive than some of their predecessors.However, authorities working together successfully to support it is very depressing that, in a recent survey, only half the Greater Cambridge Partnership and our city deal. of employers said that they would consider employing Should not the same, at the least, be expected of ex-offenders. I suggest that a senior and respected Labour authorities working together rather than pointing figure from the private sector—perhaps someone who their fingers at the Government? has just retired—could be appointed to encourage more employers to take on ex-offenders, to work with them and chivvy them along. Surely this would make Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, noble Lords sense. Given that ex-offenders cost the country about will be aware that I do not seek to be partisan on these £15 billion a year, would it not make sense to consider things, but my noble friend has a point in that regard. some kind of financial inducement to encourage It is best when local authorities come together, across employers? parties, to move things forward. As he has indicated, that is happening in relation to Cambridge and Baroness Vere of Norbiton: My Lords, the good Peterborough. It is also happening in relation to Teesside news is that half of employers might be interested in but—alas—not at the moment in Sheffield or broader employing ex-offenders. Certainly, the noble Lord is Tyneside, although I am pleased that last week we completely right: we need to encourage people from took the decision to move forward with north Tyneside. the wider business community to encourage their colleagues to look to ex-offenders as potential employees. Lord Tebbit (Con): My Lords, if, instead of devolution, That is why the New Futures Network is appointing we had delegation, it would get these things through business ambassadors, who will do that for key sectors. much more quickly. It would be much more effective For example, we have Timpson Group covering the without any of the constitutional problems that are retail sector—10% of Timpson’s employees are posed by devolution. ex-offenders—and we have Landsec doing the same for construction and Mitie for agriculture and horticulture.

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, there is a Baroness Hollins (CB): My Lords, will the Minister line to be drawn between delegation and democracy, comment on any particular training or employment although certainly, looking at Sheffield, democracy opportunities available to ex-offenders with learning does not seem to have taken us as far forward as many disabilities? I understand that they have a very high of us would have liked. rate of reoffending of around 40%. 1531 Ex-Offenders: Training and Employment[5 NOVEMBER 2018] Pornographic Websites: Age Verification 1532

Baroness Vere of Norbiton: The noble Baroness is Lord Beecham (Lab): My Lords, does the Minister completely right. Of course, that is one of the challenges agree that local authorities have potentially an important that we face in our prison communities. We know that role to play in this matter, and will she undertake to one-third of prisoners have learning difficulties or a approach the Local Government Association to see disability. That is why it all comes back to education: whether that can be translated into practice? we need to make sure that the education provision is right for all ex-offenders, whether they have learning Baroness Vere of Norbiton: I believe that local difficulties or a disability. We do this by empowering authorities have an important part to play so, yes, I am our governors to commission the services that work happy to do that. for their prison community. Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl): My Lords, mental health Lord Tomlinson (Lab): My Lords, will the Minister issues are finally being acknowledged as a matter of join with me in congratulating Arsenal Football Club national concern. What are the Government doing to and its players on the work that they have committed ensure that the mental health and well-being of women themselves to doing, which involves going into prisons in prisons is being supported, as well as the need for and helping current offenders to become motivated training and skills? and receive training that will equip them better for when they leave prison? Baroness Vere of Norbiton: The noble Baroness is Baroness Vere of Norbiton: I completely agree with quite right and, indeed, we have covered this at Questions the noble Lord. Arsenal is leading the way in this. I and in debates recently. The needs of women in prisons would like all Premier League football clubs to do the are slightly different from the needs of men; mental same in their local communities. health is an important part of that, and we know that self-harming rates are higher among women than they are among men. We recognise all these things, which is Baroness Eaton (Con): My Lords, does the Minister why our Female Offender Strategy, which was announced think that an extension of the temporary release scheme earlier this year, focuses particularly on mental health, would help in this context? to make sure that the environment in which female offenders are kept is appropriate for them and that Baroness Vere of Norbiton: My noble friend makes they have the support that they need. a very good point. If we can get prisoners out of prison and into the community to undertake some Lord Ramsbotham (CB): My Lords, the Minister work experience, that will be hugely beneficial. At the has no doubt heard of the organisation Prosper, which moment, 7,500 prisoners have had at least one release—an was founded by an ex-offender. It has currently 3,000 increase of 7%—and we are looking at more ways to jobs on offer to ex-prisoners online, but the Prison improve this. We have allowed governors to tailor their Service can produce only 200 names to fill those ROTL regime by prisoner, and we are developing a places. Can the Minister please assure the House that new framework for ROTL to ensure that more of the there is co-ordination between all organisations offering more appropriate prisoners can get out to get the jobs to ex-offenders? valuable work experience that they need.

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD): My Lords, Baroness Vere of Norbiton: I certainly commend the given that the lack of joined-up local partnership was work of Prosper, and I am surprised to hear the a central criticism made by Dame Glenys Stacey’s figures that the noble Lord mentioned. I will do some annual report on probation for last year, what are the more digging in this area to find out why this disparity Government doing to build into their new contracts exists, and will then write to the noble Lord and put a with the community rehabilitation companies firm copy in the Library. obligations to work with the voluntary sector and local private businesses to provide training and Pornographic Websites: Age Verification employment for offenders, both those serving community Question sentences and offenders on their release from custody? 2.53 pm Baroness Vere of Norbiton: My Lords, the community rehabilitation companies are an important part of our Asked by Baroness Benjamin probation service. Noble Lords will know that we are ending the current CRC contracts early; some things To ask Her Majesty’s Government what will be have worked well, and some things, frankly, have not. the commencement date for their plans to ensure We have sought feedback from a number of proposals that age-verification to prevent children accessing to improve the structure and content, and we are pornographic websites is implemented by the British talking to third sector organisations. The public Board of Film Classification. consultation ended on 21 September. I also acknowledge the recommendations which were brought forward in TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department the Justice Select Committee’s report. The Government for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of will look at all these items—of course, any contributions Hyde) (Con): My Lords, we are now in the final stages from the noble Lord will be very welcome—and we of the process, and we have laid the BBFC’s draft will respond early next year. guidance and the Online Pornography (Commercial 1533 Pornographic Websites: Age Verification[LORDS] Design Engineer Construct Programme 1534

[LORD ASHTON OF HYDE] However, they decided—and this House decided—not Basis) Regulations before Parliament for approval. We to use that for the time being. For the moment, the will ensure that there is a sufficient period following regulator will act in a different way. But later on, if parliamentary approval for the public and the industry necessary, the Secretary of State could exercise that to prepare for age verification. Once parliamentary power. On timing and FOBTs, we thought carefully—as proceedings have concluded, we will set a date by noble Lords can imagine—before we said that we which commercial pornography websites will need to expect the date will be early in the new year, be compliant, following an implementation window. We expect that this date will be early in the new year. Lord Addington (LD): My Lords, does the Minister agree that good health and sex education might be a way to counter some of the damaging effects? Can the Baroness Benjamin (LD): I thank the Minister for Government make sure that is in place as soon as his Answer. I cannot wait for that date to happen, but possible, so that this strange fantasy world is made does he share my disgust and horror that social media slightly more real? companies such as Twitter state that their minimum age for membership is 13 yet make no attempt to Lord Ashton of Hyde: The noble Lord is of course restrict some of the most gross forms of pornography right that age verification itself is not the only answer. being exchanged via their platforms? Unfortunately, It does not cover every possibility of getting on to a the Digital Economy Act does not affect these companies pornography site. However, it is the first attempt of its because they are not predominantly commercial porn kind in the world, which is why not only we but many publishers. Does he agree that the BBFC needs to other countries are looking at it. I agree that sex develop mechanisms to evaluate the effectiveness of education in schools is very important and I believe it the legislation for restricting children’s access to is being brought into the national curriculum already. pornography via social media sites and put a stop to this unacceptable behaviour? The Earl of Erroll (CB): Why is there so much wriggle room in section 6 of the guidance from the DCMS to the AVregulator? The ISP blocking probably Lord Ashton of Hyde: My Lords, I agree that there will not work, because everyone will just get out of it. are areas of concern on social media sites. As the If we bring this into disrepute then the good guys who noble Baroness rightly says, they are not covered by would like to comply probably will not; they will not the Digital Economy Act. We had many hours of be able to do so economically. All that was covered in discussion about that in this House. However, she will British Standard PAS 1296, which was developed over be aware that we are producing an online harms White three years. It seems to have been totally ignored by Paper in the winter in which some of these issues will the DCMS. You have spent an awful lot of time be considered. If necessary, legislation will be brought getting there, but you have not got there. forward to address these, and not only these but other harms too. I agree that the BBFC should find out Lord Ashton of Hyde: One of the reasons this has about the effectiveness of the limited amount that age taken so long is that it is complicated. We in the verification can do; it will commission research on DCMS, and many others, not least in this House, have that. Also, the Digital Economy Act itself made sure spent a long time discussing the best way of achieving that the Secretary of State must review its effectiveness this. I am not immediately familiar with exactly what within 12 to 18 months. section 6 says, but when the statutory instrument comes before this House—it is an affirmative one to Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab): My Lords, once be discussed—I will have the answer ready for the again I find this issue raising a dynamic that we noble Earl. became familiar with in the only too recent past. The Government are to be congratulated on getting the Lord West of Spithead (Lab): My Lords, does the Act on to the statute book and, indeed, on taking Minister not agree that the possession of a biometric measures to identify a regulator as well as to indicate card by the population would make the implementation that secondary legislation will be brought forward to of things such as this very much easier? implement a number of the provisions of the Act. My Lord Ashton of Hyde: In some ways it would, but worry is that, under one section of the Digital Economy there are problems with people who either do not want Act, financial penalties can be imposed on those who to or cannot have biometric cards. infringe this need; the Government seem to have decided not to bring that provision into force at this time. I Design Engineer Construct Programme believe I can anticipate the Minister’s answer but—in Question view of the little drama we had last week over fixed-odds betting machines—we would not want the Government, 3 pm having won our applause in this way, to slip back into Asked by Lord Redesdale putting things off or modifying things away from the position that we had all agreed we wanted. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Department for Education will reconsider allowing Design Engineer Construct levels 2 and 3 as project- Lord Ashton of Hyde: My Lords, I completely based qualifications. understand where the noble Lord is coming from but what he said is not quite right. The Digital Economy Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con): My Lords, the Act included a power that the Government could bring Department for Education recently published the list enforcement with financial penalties through a regulator. of technical qualifications approved for inclusion in 1535 Design Engineer Construct Programme[5 NOVEMBER 2018] Design Engineer Construct Programme 1536 the 2020 performance tables for schools and colleges. of those professionals. Surely they should be given To ensure the quality and robustness of qualifications every encouragement to flourish in that endeavour? included in performance tables, they must demonstrate From what the Minister says, that is not the case so a number of characteristics, including an appropriate far. When will the Government end their obsession assessment methodology.The Design Engineer Construct with the English baccalaureate and accept that a place qualifications were reviewed as part of that process, at a Russell Group university is not the appropriate but did not demonstrate all the necessary characteristics destination for every young person, and instead encourage for inclusion in the 2020 performance tables. young people to get the sorts of employability skills that Design Engineer Construct will provide? Lord Redesdale (LD): My Lords, I am sure the Minister would agree that there is actually a shortage Viscount Younger of Leckie: We are on the same of young people who are entering into design and page. I hope the noble Lord will understand that we construction, especially young girls. If we take away are undertaking a number of very important reviews, project-based skills such as set out by DEC, that looking particularly at the 16 to 18 year group. The reduces the number of people who will make that as a T-level rollout is one of the most important schemes, life choice. That means that most young people would and we are on track to roll out the first three from be forced into an exam-based system whereas this September 2020 and a further 12 from then on. This is subject lends itself to a project-based approach. Will joined up with other reviews: we want to provide a the Minister agree to meet with those behind the DEC seamless approach from a younger age with better project to look for a way forward? career progression and management for young people; and to make sure that we push people up the vocational Viscount Younger of Leckie: I can certainly agree to route into the right positions to produce the skills that arrange a meeting for the noble Lord. I would like to we need for the economy in the future. give a little more information on the back of the decision that has been made. The qualifications for Lord Redesdale: My Lords, I believe I am allowed Design Engineer Construct were reviewed a total of to ask a second question—I have read the book. The three times during the approval process by the department. Minister put forward the idea that 16 to 18 year-olds After each of the first two reviews, feedback was given should be pushed into this area. I have children who to the awarding organisation so that they could improve. have just been through this process. They have to make Unfortunately, after an appeal, it was still unsuccessful. exam choices which will affect their academic career It is standards that we are talking about here, which far earlier than that. Unless they have decided on a are very important. career before they take their GCSEs, they are unlikely to move into this sector afterwards. Does the Minister Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD): My Lords, it is agree that it is important to look at the 11 and 12 year-old entirely illogical for such a valuable learning programme age gap? to be removed from the league table points, given its value to the built environment. This programme is Viscount Younger of Leckie: Yes; I think it is fair to respected by academia, business and the profession. say that we are looking at all the age gaps. Career Can the Minister say what impact assessment was management is often raised from the noble Lord’s made of the loss of young people developing the skills Benches. He will know that the National Careers and knowledge for professional progression in the Service provides independent professional advice. The construction industry, which as we know is desperately Careers & Enterprise Company is ensuring that every short of skilled people? I would also echo my noble young person has access to inspiring encounters with friend’s concern that only 2% of the construction the world of work. The important point here is that we workforce is female. are engaging work in schools to be sure that young people are given the inspiration and advice they need Viscount Younger of Leckie: In answering the noble to take the right career path. Baroness’s question I would say that it is not the end of the road, because schools and colleges can offer any Lord West of Spithead (Lab): My Lords, the Minister qualification that has been accredited by Ofqual and will be aware that there is a strategic implication to approved for teaching to the appropriate age group, this lack of engineering skills, particularly in the military. under Section 96 of the Learning and Skills Act 2000. Wehave a huge shortage of engineer officers, particularly It is up to schools, therefore, to decide whether they within the Navy and Air Force. It was our engineers want to continue with this particular qualification— and scientists who helped us to win the First World although it is unlikely that they will do so, because War—100 years ago—and the Second World War. they are not going to be listed on the performance Surely more can be done to help ensure that youngsters tables. Again, what we are talking about is the greatest see engineering as an exciting prospect, with opportunities shake-up that we are undertaking of post-16 education for all sorts of jobs, which they should try to do. since A-levels were introduced 70 years ago. Viscount Younger of Leckie: The noble Lord is Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab): My Lords, there absolutely right. We are investing nearly £7 billion is little understanding of the built environment professions. in this academic year to ensure that there is a place in As the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, says, few young education or training—particularly for engineering— people aspire to a career in what is a significant sector for every 16 to 18 year-old. I see that my noble friend of the economy.That is why Design Engineer Construct Lord Baker of Dorking is in his seat. At least a couple was developed as a learning programme for school of university technical colleges are being used to roll students, to help to inspire and create the next generation out the new T-levels, which is very good news. 1537 Design Engineer Construct Programme [LORDS] Knife Crime 1538

Lord Baker of Dorking (Con): I thank the Minister remember that in October the Home Secretary announced for referring to UTCs. The decision to remove these further measures, including a commitment to consult two exams is a mistake. It reduces further the amount on a new legal duty to underpin a public health of technical education in our secondary schools. Design approach to tackling serious violence, bringing all relevant and technology has already fallen by 57% in the lifetime partners together and making this a top priority. It of this Government. T-levels in engineering will not will be supported by a youth endowment fund— come in until 2023 and 2025. University technical £200 million over 10 years from 2020—to divert young colleges are the only colleges in the country that every people from crime and violence. He is absolutely right year provide employable technicians and engineers at to suggest a multiagency approach. 16 and 18. We should have many more of them. Lord Rosser (Lab): My Lords, we all deplore the Viscount Younger of Leckie: I thank my noble level of knife crime and its impact on the many people friend for his less than helpful reply; I was trying to be who are affected. We all support the London mayor’s helpful to him. I hope he will understand that much call for a long-term approach. Nevertheless, since effort and focus have gone into these particular Design 2010 the Government have maintained that the level Engineer Construct qualifications. At the end of the of crime is not influenced by reductions in the number day, it was deemed that they were not up to the of police officers and in neighbourhood policing. The standard required. Met Police Commissioner said last week that forces were stretched. In the light of the increase in violent Knife Crime crime, the increase in reported crime, falling clear-up rates and the increase in the number of crimes that do Private Notice Question not even get properly investigated, will the Government confirm that it is still their view that the number of 3.08 pm police officers, which has fallen considerably since Asked by The Lord Bishop of St Albans 2010, has no impact on the incidence and level of crime? To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of four fatal stabbings in London in the last week, what action is being taken to address the dramatic Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I think rise in knife crime in that city and in the rest of the that the noble Lord would agree that my right honourable United Kingdom. friend the Home Secretary and the policing Minister have acknowledged the increasing calls on police time The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, I beg and resources, particularly over the past two years, but leave to ask a Question of which I have given private our analysis points to a range of factors driving serious notice. violence, most notably in the drugs market. The Government, therefore, understand that police demand is changing and becoming much more complex. Noble The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams Lords will know—I have said it before—that the Minister of Trafford) (Con): My Lords,knife crime has a devastating for Policing and the Fire Service has visited police impact on individuals, families and communities. To forces across England and Wales and that was why the combat serious violence, our strategy addresses the funding settlement of more than £460 million in 2018-19 root causes of crime with a focus on early intervention was arrived at. Early intervention is, however, crucial alongside tough law enforcement. The Government in this area, particularly for young people. are very concerned about increases in knife crime and its impact on victims, families and communities. The action we are taking is set out in our serious violence Lord Paddick (LD): My Lords, these deaths are a strategy and includes new legislation in the Offensive tragedy, and our thoughts are with all those affected. Weapons Bill, the community fund to support local Clearly there are long-term issues, which the noble initiatives,the #knifefree media campaign, and continuing Baroness has referred to, but if we are to get knives off police action under Operation Sceptre. the street we need the police and communities to work together so that stop and search can be accurately The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, I thank targeted at those actually carrying the knives. How the Minister for her reply. Behind these terrible, tragic can this be done when community policing has been stabbings, and the general rise in knife crime across devastated by the Government’s cuts to police budgets? our country—not just in London—lie countless human There is nothing in the Government’s anti-violence tragedies. Many families will never recover from the strategy about increasing police resources. loss of a loved one through such a murder, and our sympathy goes out to them. Does the Minister agree Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, the noble with the call from the London mayor for a long-term Lord points to something important about stop and public health approach to this problem, and will Her search—it has to be intelligence-led and there have to Majesty’s Government ensure that it is properly funded? be sufficient police officers to deal with it. In terms of the community, the noble Lord points to something Baroness Williams of Trafford: I join the right reverend very important. Community projects to tackle knife Prelate in his sympathy for the families—it must be crime may be one of the most effective ways of dealing devastating for every family that has lost someone to with this scourge that has blighted communities for such a dreadful crime. The right reverend Prelate may the past few years. 1539 Knife Crime [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1540

Lord Hogan-Howe (CB): My Lords, does the Minister this year—45 happened in houses and flats and 21 of agree that there are probably three major causes of the those were as a result of domestic violence. Is it time rise in violence, particularly murders, that we have for the Government to make misogyny a hate crime? seen more of in London than perhaps in the rest of the country? The first is the supply of cocaine. Street-level Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, in terms dealing is now online dealing—apparently it can be of the types of hate crime that police forces choose to delivered quicker than pizza—and something has to prioritise and the resources that they use to prioritise happen to intervene in that supply. The National them, I do not disagree with the noble Baroness that Crime Agency might do more because 90% of cocaine reports of domestic abuse are on the increase. In some comes from South America. Street-level dealing has to ways, that is good because people are actually reporting be attacked by local police who must do something incidents. But what the police home in on has to be a about that. The Government could invest more in matter for local police forces and what they think are that. the trends and needs in their areas. Secondly, more technology could help officers on the streets to identify the people who carry knives. There are clearly too many people carrying knives and Further Education Bodies (Insolvency) we have to intervene where that is happening to stop Regulations 2018 the almost accidental use of knives. Motion to Approve Finally, there is a correlation between more young people, particularly young men, gathering and a rise in 3.19 pm violence. We need to see more police resources invested in those areas.Does the Minister agree that the investment Tabled by Lord Agnew of Oulton of resources in those areas in particular, where we That the draft Regulations laid before the House on have lost 24,000 police officers over the last few years, 5 September be approved. Considered in Grand Committee is vital now—not in the long term—for a public health on 30 October. attempt to improve the situation? Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con): My Lords, in the Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I agree absence of my noble friend Lord Agnew, I beg to with all the points made by the noble Lord; he will move the Motion standing in his name on the Order have heard the Home Secretary’s words about future Paper. funding. The noble Lord is right about the scourge of drugs, and the fact that cocaine can be delivered Motion agreed. quicker than pizza is really concerning. The police should make the most of technology on the streets and of intelligence as well. But make no mistake: the Armistice Day: Centenary issue of drugs is something that my right honourable Motion to Take Note friend the Home Secretary has committed to tackle in the most vigorous of ways because the two are linked. 3.20 pm Moved by Lord Ashton of Hyde Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab): My Lords, back in 1999, at the end of the Stephen Lawrence That this House takes note of the centenary of inquiry, when the spate of knife crime started, resources the Armistice at the end of the First World War. were put into Trident. This problem of people being killed on the street did not seem to warrant the same TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department importance then. Now we hear when a young person for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of has been killed that it is a fatal incident. What has Hyde) (Con): My Lords, it is a privilege to open this changed from back in 1999 when so many young black debate, as it has been a privilege to be the Minister men were losing their lives? Nobody took much notice responsible for the First World War commemorations. then, but now it is seen as a fatal crime. Will the Minister The last four years of First World War centenary explain the difference between then and now? commemorations have both reflected and galvanised the nation’s desire to honour those who sacrificed so Baroness Williams of Trafford: The difference between much for our freedom, while also helping people to then and now—and I pay tribute to the noble Baroness understand and connect with the experiences of our for all the work that she has done in this area following forebears. the terrible death of her son—is that the increase in In six days’ time, on the centenary of the Armistice, knife crime has become quite unprecedented over the the Government will conclude these important last few years. Therefore, the Government, through commemorations, while inspiring, we hope, individuals legislation, through non-legislative measures and through and communities to continue to learn about the impact their work with the police and local communities, are and legacy of the war. On Sunday, the nation will, as determined to tackle it. usual, pause to remember all those who died during the First World War and in every conflict since. But we Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP): My Lords, will also give thanks for the end of that war, and to all the Minister will know that knife crime is only part of those who returned to their families. We will reflect on the problem. There have been 100 murders in London the price which was paid and continued to be paid 1541 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1542

[LORD ASHTON OF HYDE] Citizen Service, the National Youth Choir of Scotland generations after the first shots were fired in 1914—shots and the National Youth Choir of Great Britain had which were followed by a war so bloody, and on such prominent roles in our commemorative events in 2017 an unprecedented, industrial scale, that even today it is and 2018. difficult to comprehend. The Government established the 14-18 NOW cultural There can be no doubt that the First World War is programme in 2012 to work with artists in order to tell inescapably linked in the nation’s collective mind to new stories through the mediums of culture and art. death and suffering. Over the centenary,we have reflected We have since seen the emergence of a new model for on the sacrifice, bloodshed and horror of war. But it is learning about heritage and the complexities of conflict also right that on this historic date we recognise the through the arts with, we hope, an important legacy, importance of a hard-won victory. That victory was especially in connecting young people with the centenary. due in no small part to the significant contribution of 14-18 NOW has engaged more than 35 million people our allies from the Commonwealth and beyond. We in the centenary, including 7.5 million young people have worked with them throughout the centenary under the age of 25. In doing so, it created new period to mark some of the key battles and campaigns. memories and helped explain the nature and impact of On 4 August 2014, events were held in Glasgow, the war to people from all walks of life and of all ages. Westminster Abbey and Saint-Symphorien, Belgium, Works by an extraordinarily diverse range of artists to commemorate the outbreak of the war. Later, my from the UK and abroad have helped to highlight the department led the delivery of emotionally charged contributions to the First World War of people from international events to mark the centenaries of the many different countries and backgrounds. Poets from Gallipoli campaign and the battles of Jutland, the the Caribbean and the Caribbean diaspora, visual Somme and Passchendaele. Tens of thousands of people artists from India and Bangladesh, performers from with familial or emotional connections to these events South Africa and musicians from Syria, among others, joined members of the Royal Family, diplomats and have all highlighted in their different ways the global senior military figures, along with representatives of reach and impact of war. our allies and our former enemies. Millions more watched on television. In addition to large-scale national events, we have In August of this year, I attended a service in sought to highlight the enormous contribution made Amiens Cathedral to commemorate the Battle of Amiens. by those Commonwealth nations who came to Britain’s This battle was one of the turning points of the war, aid. Some 2.5 million men and women from the and heralded the start of the Hundred Days Offensive Commonwealth and Empire answered the call to fight, which lasted from Amiens to the Armistice. Our with 200,000 laying down their lives. They left their international partners, the Governments of France, homes in the Indian subcontinent, Australia, New Canada, Australia and—for the first time—the United Zealand, Canada, Newfoundland, Africa and the States, helped us to deliver this event. In an echo of the Caribbean to serve the Allied cause. Commonwealth successful coalition of 100 years earlier, it was a moving nations will rightly be represented at the Cenotaph and memorable experience. We were pleased to welcome and in Westminster Abbey on Sunday. I said “men and His Excellency Joachim Gauck, former President of women”, and we do not forget the role of women in the Federal Republic of Germany. The German the First World War. All government commemorative Government have been hugely supportive of our events have recognised the role that women played in commemorations, and I am delighted that the current the war effort, be it as factory workers, nurses on the German President, His Excellency Frank-Walter Western Front and at home, or as loved ones sending Steinmeier, has accepted Her Majesty’s Government’s letters to the battlefield. Of course, last year marked invitation in this special year to lay a wreath at the historic landmark of the first women getting the the Cenotaph next Sunday and to attend the event vote in this country. at Westminster Abbey that evening. That spirit of friendship and reconciliation was also reflected in our Nor have we forgotten the role of Ireland. When commemorations of the Gallipoli campaign, where the then Prime Minister and the then Taoiseach met in we welcomed the participation of the Turkish Government 2016, they reaffirmed that the UK and Irish Governments and armed forces. would continue to mark key First World War events in a spirit of mutual respect, inclusiveness and friendship. These high-profile ceremonial events have,importantly, This was demonstrated in the shared approach to the been complemented by an extensive programme of Battle of Messines Ridge, commemorated on 7 June cultural and educational activities. Our stated themes, 2017, which was attended by the Duke of Cambridge as set out by the then Prime Minister David Cameron and the then Taoiseach, Enda Kenny. in 2012, were remembrance, youth and education. Indeed, youth has been a key theme of the centenary On 11 November 1918 the news of the signing of programme since it was announced in 2012. All the the Armistice was celebrated on these shores with Government’s First World War programmes have been music, street parties and parades, and with the ringing designed to engage children and young people, including, of church bells.On Remembrance Sundayat the Cenotaph for example, school battlefield tours, the Great War this year, when we salute all those who died in conflicts school debate series, and the 14-18 NOW cultural since the First World War, we will share our usual programme. Schools and organisations working with sombre moment of remembrance. We will, of course, young people can also join the Imperial War Museum’s have the two-minute silence. We will reflect on what we centenary partnership and get involved in events taking have learned since 1918 and on the damaged lives of place near them. Young people from the National those who are affected by war. 1543 Armistice Day: Centenary [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1544

The 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month of commemoration. In that vein, I greatly look forward 1918 was an iconic moment in our history. In writings to listening to your Lordships’ speeches today. I beg to and recordings, soldiers often struggled to articulate move. how they felt at the moment the guns stopped firing. They reported a mixture of joy, relief, grief and often 3.32 pm a sort of exhausted numbness—but there was also, for many, a sense of achievement and justice at what they Baroness Andrews (Lab): My Lords, it is a great understandably regarded as a significant and, despite privilege to follow the Minister and to have the opportunity everything, popular victory. Accordingly, after the to thank him and his department for their extraordinary service of remembrance we will move toward a spirit leadership over the past four extraordinary years. of thanksgiving for victory and toward the care and Imagination and inclusion seem to have been exactly celebration of, and concern for, those who returned. the characteristics needed, and were indeed what his And let us not forget the perhaps underreported fact department provided. that 88% of those who fought for the Allied cause We have had four extraordinary years, and it is now returned home alive, if not always whole in body or time to reflect on the Armistice. We have to admit that mind. it was an armistice that ended one war but opened the path to another. Commemorating it requires us to So this year, the traditional Royal British Legion look beyond the Armistice to the world we inherited, parade of veterans will be followed by an additional and what we have done with it. Commemorating a war procession of 10,000 members of the public who wish which was, in so many ways, unbelievably cruel and to pay personal tribute and give thanks to the generation futile, but which we remember and honour for the who served. The procession will be complemented by courage,sacrifice and dignity shown, has been a conflicting the nationwide ringing of bells from 12.30 pm, and at experience. The Great War lives in our memories and various times throughout the rest of the world—often imaginations like nothing else. However, of necessity, the very same bells which rang out after four years of most of the personal memories are long buried. silence 100 years ago. In the evening, there will be a national service of thanksgiving in Westminster Abbey. The past four years have enabled people across the Her Majesty the Queen and the President of Germany community to reach into the past and their own histories, will be joined by guests who have contributed so much bringing to life the countless names, diaries, poems, to commemorative projects of all types in communities photographs, letters, songs and stories in a way that across the country since 2014. Similar services will simply could not have been imagined. It has revived take place in Llandaff Cathedral, Cardiff, Glasgow old griefs but it has also, as the Minister said, provoked Cathedral and St Anne’s Cathedral, Belfast. magnificent new art, new understanding and new heritage. It has enabled us to look beyond the statistics and into I will take this opportunity to pay tribute to the the eyes of those who were there. work of the devolved Administrations to ensure that In his book on the Armistice, Joseph Persico wrote the particular contributions of Scottish, Welsh and that if all the men who had died in the war were to Irish soldiers have been properly recognised. They march four abreast, the column would stretch have worked closely with us throughout the centenary 386 miles from Paris, half way through Switzerland, period to complement our national commemorations and it would have taken from 9 am on Monday to 4 and ensure that every part of the United Kingdom has pm on Saturday to pass. There would have been scientists had opportunities to engage with the stories and marching past in that ghostly column; men such as experiences of the war. In recent months, there has Henry Moseley, who reinvented the periodic table, and been an unprecedented amount of locally organised who was probably the most brilliant scientist of his commemorative activity up and down the country, as generation. This was indeed a scientists’ war. There the nations come together as never before to remember were poets of every nation: Alfred Lichtenstein, the the events of a century ago. German poet; Hedd Wyn, the Welsh poet; Apollinaire, the French poet; Edward Thomas and Wilfred Owen, The Government have been expertly supported our own poets, who we grew up with. There were throughout the centenary programme by its advisory composers such as George Butterworth. We can only group, consisting of highly regarded historians, former imagine the sort of world that they would have created senior members of the Armed Forces, parliamentarians, if they had lived. writers, academics, journalists and others, some of whom are participating in today’s debate. I thank The far greater number were those who, in Kipling’s them all for devoting their time to advise us. I also words, were known only to God. Among them were extend my thanks to the Prime Minister’s special the 360 ordinary men from Lewes in Sussex—foundry representative for First World War commemorations, workers, farm labourers, clerks and teachers—who Dr Andrew Murrison MP, whose work since 2013 in also died and who stand for the ordinary. Whereas we guiding these commemorations has been exceptional. know the legacy of the writers, artists, philosophers Finally,the commemoration team at DCMS has organised and scientists, because we live with that every day, we events both here and abroad, and showed diplomacy, have not known much about those men and what they energy, sensitivity and enthusiasm that were a credit to might have done—until now. The 360 men of Lewes this country. I thank them all. were brought back to life in a truly remarkable event last Armistice Day by Lewes Remembers, a small I hope that it is not disrespectful to say that, although group of local people, including our historic bonfire there have been moments of worry and emotion, I societies, who meticulously researched each of the have enjoyed taking part in the last half of the four-year men and their families. They knew where they lived 1545 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1546

[BARONESS ANDREWS] One of our HLF flagship projects in Wales has and what they did; in some cases, they knew what they been about peace. Wales for Peace is uncovering the were like. On the evening of Armistice Day last year stories of how, in 100 years, people from Wales have 360 men, matched in age with those who had died and contributed themselves to the search for peace—not leaving wherever possible from the homes that they just by digitising the names in memory of all those had left, marched silently with blazing torches through who died but by looking for the peacebuilders and the streets to converge on our war memorial. As each writing about them as well. They are great stories, not name was read out, one man stepped forward and least of the teachers of Wales who invented the first extinguished his torch. It was done with immense peace and global education curriculum, the principles dignity and it was unforgettable. of which were integrated into the founding of UNESCO. These stories need to be better known, because they All over the country during the past four years, over have in their own legacy the instinctive desire that 2,000 such projects have been funded by the Heritage young people have to grow up in a just and peaceful Lottery Fund—I declare an interest as deputy secretary world. Understanding what prevents and makes an of its board—with £97 million contributed by lottery end to conflict should be a far more explicit part of players who made this national conversation possible. our national curriculum. That indeed could be a great We know now for the first time about the sports clubs, legacy. the church groups and scout groups that lost their young men; about the men who were simply fading In that context, I am bound to say that it is hardly names on a war memorial; about the lives of children credible that we in the UK now stand on the brink of in care, the contributions of women and the role of detaching ourselves from the one European institution ethnic and faith communities, such as the Sikhs. We formed deliberately to maintain peace, based on shared know that history has been expressed in every form of laws and values. In the current state of our post-truth, art and music, in brilliant new work commissioned as post-law, post-rational world, we must listen to what 14-18 NOW projects, as the Minister said, and in the the past tells us. We are knee-deep in explanations for way that old and new have joined hands across history what caused the Great War among which, as Margaret to rediscover what they have in common. MacMillan has said, is the lack of conviction that The past four years have made possible no less than there were better alternatives. To that I would add a new way of doing history: a way of uncovering the rampant nationalism. human spirit and the personal truths about that awful It is almost commonplace to say that in 1914 the war and its aftermath that would have lain buried for nations did indeed sleepwalk into that living nightmare, ever. That is one form of legacy for which we are and that perhaps is the greatest lesson we can learn. richer in every way but I am hopeful, as I think the Thanks to President Macron there will be a new Minister is, that this will not be the end. The Armistice opportunity this week to restate our faith and invest in commemorations this week give us the chance to take international law and institutions, through his concept the next step: to build on what we know we can find of the Paris Peace Forum, which will offer the opportunity out to understand and uncover more of what was to reflect on world governance while we commemorate involved after the war in the making and keeping—and the end of World War I and recognise our collective the losing—of peace, and apply those lessons. responsibility: The aspirations for a peace which, as the treaty of “Let us never be sleepwalkers in our world”. Versailles put it, would be “firm, just and durable” Can the Minister give me an assurance today that our were not realised. In its first article it created a League Government will be a full and enthusiastic participant of Nations built on international co-operation, peace in this initiative, as part of the legacy of the Armistice and security but it failed to outlaw war. It took another itself? war before it could be rebuilt on firmer foundations. Wales has a particular story to tell. I hope that your 3.41 pm Lordships will indulge me because it is not well known. In many ways, it is the story of one man: Lord Davies Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD): On 1 March of Llandinam, soldier, philanthropist and politician, 1918, a 50 year-old master mariner named John Jones whose experience in the trenches made him determined died at sea while serving as first mate on HMS “Penvearn”. to pursue in all the ways he could the idea of a stable A member of the Royal Naval Reserve, he had sailed international order and, in particular, a League of the Atlantic convoy right through the First World Nations. He founded the Temple of Peace in Cardiff War. I know about John Jones because he was my to house the Welsh council of the League of Nations. great-grandfather, but what little I knew as I was He founded the first ever department of international growing I learned from my grandmother. He had gone politics, in Aberystwyth in 1919, to sea as boy, progressed quickly through the ranks and ultimately went down with his ship. I know a lot “for the study of those related problems of law and politics, of more about him now. He did indeed go to sea ethics and economics, which are raised by the prospect of a as a boy; his first voyage was on a ship named the League of Nations and for the truer understanding of civilisation “Quarryman”. He became a second mate at age 24 other than our own”. and married the following year. He achieved his master’s I declare another interest as a graduate of that department, certificate at the age of 35 and a lot more besides. And which has been at the cutting edge of thought leadership I know that, on 1 March 1918, his ship was torpedoed over a century and continues, in its centenary year, to by U-boat “105”, 15 miles north-west of South Stack ask the difficult questions. head, Holyhead. 1547 Armistice Day: Centenary [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1548

At the same time, a few hundred miles away in Ancestry and Find My Past. To commemorate this Bradford, William Thomas Riley had been demobbed anniversary, the National Archives will be displaying after being injured in the trenches. What I knew about the treaty of Versailles and the Armistice agreement in this great-grandfather I learned from my father because, the Keeper’s Gallery. unlike John Jones, William Riley lived to a ripe old The UK National Maritime Museum, the British age—long enough to send a card noting and Newspaper Archive and the Imperial War Museum all congratulating the birth of his first great-grandchild provide wonderfully rich seams of information, as do Rosalind, which I still have. I knew only that he had the archives of companies such as Tate & Lyle and gone to war, came back and then never spoke of what charities such as Barnardo’s. Local authority archives had happened to him. I also knew that, for the rest of are a wonderful source of information which should his life, his behaviour could be erratic. My father said, be treasured. I am very nervous that the poor state of in characteristic understated Yorkshire style, “He was local authority finances will endanger their integrity a rum lad, my grandad”. and the access that local public record offices offer. I found out many years after my father’s death that Those of us with roots in west Yorkshire are fortunate Private William Thomas Riley was a labourer. He was that the archive service there is excellent and was at the five feet five, had hazel eyes and brown hair, and forefront of digitisation. This must be preserved. weighed 130 pounds, so small and probably under- There are many small voluntary groups which work nourished, like so many working-class men of that in highly specialist areas, such as the Welsh Mariners generation. He enlisted on 2 September 1914, no doubt Index and the Maritime Archaeology Trust, both of inspired by Kitchener’s call five days earlier for a which helped my research. There are also many local battalion of pals to fight shoulder to shoulder for the organisations, researchers and writers who celebrate honour of Britain. the rich history of their neighbourhoods. We heard I learned that on 30 December 1914 he was buried that so powerfully from the noble Baroness, in a trench collapse, when he was somewhere near Lady Andrews, when she described what happened in Armentières. After being rescued, his physical injuries Lewes. David Raw’s immaculately researched book were treated, but he was never again whole. Of course, Bradford Pals is such a powerful evocation of my we would now recognise that this rum lad had in fact great-grandfather’s experience. David Raw reminds us spent the rest of his life suffering from post-traumatic that of the first 100 pals to enlist, 39 were killed and stress, as did so many of that generation. The men 19, like my great-grandfather, were sufficiently seriously who left Bradford, accompanied by marching bands wounded to be permanently discharged. There is also and cheered on by tens of thousands of people, came the work of local war memorial trusts, which care for quietly home to families grieving for the men who they the monuments themselves but also transcribe them once knew. and research the people on them. I wanted to use today’s debate to celebrate and This is a powerful coming together of government, honour brave men such as John Jones and William private sector and civil society activity which is Thomas Riley, but also to recognise and celebrate the transforming the discipline of local and family history. individuals and organisations, many of them voluntary, They have all contributed so much to this four-year which since then have painstakingly preserved, interpreted celebration. They have helped us to understand and and made accessible so much of the public record. know these brave forebears of ours, these ordinary They have enabled many thousands of people like me people who did extraordinary things, and in knowing to learn more than they could ever have believed them better, we can honour them more. possible about their ancestors. Their contribution is immense because in the facts they reveal and the 3.48 pm stories they tell they make sure that collective and Lord Stirrup (CB): My Lords, I declare an interest individual histories are preserved and remain to be as a member of the Government’s First World War celebrated and learned from by generations to come. centenary advisory committee. Let me start by recording From Commonwealth War Graves Commission that, as a member of that committee, I have been records I learned the names of John Jones’s parents, privileged to see at first hand the outstanding work taking my research back a generation. I learned that his that has been done by so many people and organisations name, along with the 21 other crew members who lost over the past few years to ensure that this nation has theirlivesthatday,isinscribedontheTowerHillMemorial, commemorated appropriately the enormous sacrifices whichcommemoratesmorethan50,000merchantseamen that were made on such a horrific scale between 1914 who died in two world wars. and 1918. Much of the Navy and Army history upon which I If the British military of today were to endure drew came from the National Archives, for which I am casualties equivalent to the same percentage of the a non-executive board member. Its professionalism UK population that was lost in the First World War, and skill in keeping a public record of more than the dead would number more than 1 million. That, of 1,000 years safe and accessible is world-leading. Nowadays, course, is more than five times the present total size of access to records is no longer limited to those who can our Armed Forces. These are numbers which are very get to Kew. It is open to all online through a system difficult for people to comprehend now. called Discovery, on which 32 million records—9 million The various centenary commemorations, however, of them downloadable—are available. Many millions have been very successful in bringing home to those more are available through the National Archives growing up in the 21st century the nature of the partnership with commercial organisations such as conflict and the impact that it had on a whole generation 1549 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1550

[LORD STIRRUP] to ask why. We should be discussing as a society the in this country. That was of course one of the main rise of selfish nationalism, the failure of international aims of the commemorative process and in this, in my mechanisms and the unwillingness to confront challenges view, it has succeeded admirably. The major battles to international law and order. Most importantly, we have been acknowledged and analysed, the impact on should be asking our schools to explore these issues the country and its population have been examined with their students and to set them in the context of closely and the effects of the war on local communities our world today. and organisations have been highlighted in all sorts of This week, as part of the Armistice centenary events, revealing ways. This is very much to be welcomed, and torches have been lit at the Tower of London. These I congratulate all those in schools, museums and veterans’ torches represent the rekindling of hope following the organisations who have worked so hard to bring these devastation of the war, but after 1918 the flames of things out of the shadows of history and into the light hope flickered only fitfully before finally guttering to of contemporary thinking. extinction in the 1930s. They failed in their promise However, I have a reservation. Some six years ago, because people forgot that peace is a fragile thing and during our first discussions about the centenary, I that it can be sustained only through constant effort. made the point that while we had to mark the key This lesson was learned in 1945, when the victorious milestones of the war, and while of course we had to allies put in place, and committed to, institutions and remember and reflect on the sacrifices made by so processes to nurture the global commons. When the many, there was a larger and, in some ways, even more peace of Europe was again threatened, by the division important perspective. If the centenary was to be that split former comrades in arms between East and more than a passing acknowledgment of a dreadful West, the response was one of unified and determined period in our history, if it was to be of lasting benefit purpose exemplified by NATO, not one of fragmentation to coming generations, then it would be crucial to and rancour. focus not just on the courses of the war but on its Today the institutions that have served us so well causes and its consequences. for more than 70 years are under threat. They are, of Happily, in the months leading up to August 2014, course, imperfect and in some cases, no doubt, they there was a great deal of debate in the written and are in need of renewal, but they should not therefore broadcast media and within our schools over the be cast aside as so much obsolete bureaucracy. If the events, misadventures and miscalculations that plunged years immediately following the Armistice teach us the world into such a catastrophe. We have now, anything, it is that the rejection of collective security though, been through over four years of commemorative in the pursuit of an illusory idea of self-interest puts events. They have been superbly arranged and movingly us all at risk, and that a failure to unite, with all the executed, and even in the most difficult of circumstances messy compromises that this entails, leaves us exposed they have struck the appropriate tone. But four years is and vulnerable to the dangers of an uncertain world. a long time, and there is a sense that the centenary of The world of 2018 is not the same as the one of the Armistice is a good point at which to bring the 1918. We cannot draw direct parallels between the two process to a close. That would be a serious mistake. eras. However, as Mark Twain reminded us, while After a great many missteps, years of stalemate on history never repeats itself, it does sometimes rhyme. I a number of fronts and bloodletting on an unimaginable have an uncomfortable sense that we are hearing such scale, in November 1918 the allies finally achieved a a rhyme now. Those who sacrificed so much in the decisive operational victory. Over the following few First World War were let down by those who sought to years, however, their diplomatic and political failures make the peace. If we can use their example to help us turned this into a strategic defeat of the first order, a to do better, then that sacrifice will not have been defeat that would set us on the path to the Second wholly in vain. That is why the centenary of the World War and to even greater carnage. The hubris Armistice should not be an end, but a new beginning of victory, the increasing alienation of Germany, the of reflection, debate, and learning. creation of the “stab in the back” myth, the failure of the United States to engage properly in the global commons, the San Remo agreements on the division 3.56 pm of the remnants of the Ottoman Empire, which we Lord Astor of Hever (Con): My Lords, it is hard to see unravelling before our eyes today—all these imagine the mood of the country 100 years ago, when things, and others, led us eventually to a much darker the hellish cacophony of gunfire gradually ceased on abyss than the one from which we emerged in the 11th hour on the 11th day of the 11th month, to be November 1918. replaced by an almost equally deafening silence—not There is, of course, disagreement about the relative a peaceful silence, but the suffocating, overwhelming importance of these factors: about whether Germany sense of emptiness that comes with grief. Over 6 million was really left in such a parlous position, about the men in Britain served during the war and around extent to which irresponsible governance of the 725,000 never returned. Over the course of the conflict, international financial scene played a part, and about 1.75 million men suffered an injury of some kind; half the debilitating political impact of the war on western this number would be left permanently disabled, and democracies. Good. These are just the sort of debates all would be psychologically scarred for life. Men of and discussions that we should be having, because it is all ages had signed up believing that it was their duty an inescapable fact that little more than 20 years after and that there was a job to be done. They trusted that the “war to end all wars” we endured an unprecedented they would have a job to come home to. When this did global cataclysm. We should be taking this opportunity not happen, the most vulnerable just slipped into 1551 Armistice Day: Centenary [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1552 poverty and destitution. The rank and file who had appointment as Supreme Allied Commander in March fought with their backs to the wall believing in the 1918. I congratulate the Minister’s department on the justice of their cause had, in many cases, lost everything efficient way that it organised this historic event. It including their dignity and self-respect. The Government was hugely appreciated by the French present for the of the day were totally unprepared for the situation, ceremony. In a private conversation after the service, a resulting in delays of pension payments to widows and senior representative of the French armed forces stressed the disabled. Compared with other countries, including to me the importance of continued co-operation in the Germany, we were behind the curve, and there were military field between our two countries, and, in fact, lessons to be learned in treating visible and invisible throughout Europe. I agreed with him 100%: we are wounds. leaving the EU, not Europe, irrespective of Brexit. My grandfather, Douglas Haig, felt an enormous Let us not forget how fragile the situation was in burden of responsibility towards the men who had 1945, when a shattered Europe once again faced an served under him as Commander-in-Chief. Accordingly, uncertain future, this time with a very threatening he addressed the needs of the veterans and their neighbour on its doorstep. Seventy years’ worth of families with the same dogged determination he had careful rebuilding of alliances and trust should not be demonstrated in helping defeat the enemy.He recognised dismissed lightly. In the spring of 1918, in the wake of that men needed employment more than charity and, Operation Michael, when our depleted and exhausted though naturally modest and reserved, he became very Army faced the fiercest onslaught by fresh German vocal on their behalf, using his influence, where he troops, the outcome of the war was balanced on a could, to advance their welfare and interests. The knife edge. It was the co-operation between the British Legion, of which he became the first president, British Commander-in-Chief and the Supreme Allied came into being in 1921 because of his insistence on Commander that reversed our fortunes. Their unity of having a single organisation uniting the four national purpose, founded on mutual respect and underpinned organisations of ex-servicemen that had established by strong leadership, resulted in a highly successful themselves immediately after the end of the war. campaign, involving Britain and its dominions, other European countries and America, which delivered My grandmother set up the Lady Haig Poppy victory in 1918. Factory in Edinburgh in 1926, along similar lines to the Poppy Factory in Richmond, which had been When we stand to observe the two-minute silence established four years before. She started it with just on Sunday, we will remember the families of the men three helpers, red paper and scissors. Within 10 years, and women who never came back, whose sacrifice in the factory was employing nearly 100 severely disabled the Great War secured peace and justice, freedom and people. At the same time, she was behind a housing democracy, as well as those who finally laid down project in Richmond which by 1930 had provided their arms, after four years of relentless struggle. 330 veterans with homes. She regularly accompanied widows and orphans on battlefield visits. 4.05 pm The red poppy, which had carpeted Picardy in the Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab): My Lords, 100 years summer months of 1919, carried such significance for after the Armistice was signed, it is an interesting the families of those whose blood had been spilled on commentary on the diversity of this Chamber as those foreign fields that a facsimile of it soon became well as on the unanimity in what I am sure we will say a uniting emblem of remembrance and hope in the in the coming few hours that I, the grandson of a midst of the encircling, autumnal gloom. The idea of south Wales miner, should be following the grandson a Poppy Appeal, which raised over £100,000 in its first of Earl Haig. year, 1921, was formulated around the dining room table at my grandmother’s family home in Cornwall, I want to reflect on the impact of the sacrifice in the following an approach to her by Madame Guérin, First World War on the eastern valley of Gwent, who had introduced a commemorative flower in the which used to be Monmouthshire. It is a valley that United States and Canada. includes Cwmbran, Pontypool and Blaenavon and which was, 100 years ago, made up almost wholly of There is no doubt that the First World War was a men who worked in the collieries and in the steelworks. catalyst for enormous change—social, political and Over the last four years, a very good friend of mine moral, and in the areas of science and medicine, who had been a local councillor—Stuart Cameron—has warfare and technology. One could even say that the been compiling month by month a register of those 20th century truly began in 1914. With the birth of who perished in the war. That has come to an end, and total war came the realisation that conflicts could be we now know that, over those four years of the war, in global and devastating in scope. For this reason, many a valley whose population was much less than it is believed, somewhat optimistically, that the Great War now, 1,300 men perished. A whole generation of young was the “war to end all wars”. But humankind has an men in that valley was decimated. It is ironic that 1918 extraordinary capacity to undermine such hopes. The was the highest year for casualties: some 317 men died fissures and tensions created by the hostilities—political, in that last year of the war. military and cultural—were to cast a long shadow and Almost every single family was affected by that war, blight following generations. more than by any other conflict before that. That was, A memorable day for me in this Armistice centenary of course, because of conscription. Many men had to year was when I had the honour of meeting Colonel go to war because of national service, and others went Eric Bécourt-Foch, great-grandson of Marshal Foch, because they volunteered. From those 1,300 men to at the laying of wreaths to commemorate the Marshal’s whom I referred, 37 families lost two sons and five 1553 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1554

[LORD MURPHY OF TORFAEN] 4.11 pm families lost three sons. The family of Henry and Elizabeth Williams of Pontnewydd had seven sons Lord Cope of Berkeley (Con): My Lords, this debate who fought in that war and three were killed. Of those is quite rightly focused on the 11 November Armistice, seven sons, one was a steelworker and six worked which silenced the guns on the Western Front of the underground. “Great War for Civilisation”, as it is called on the reverse of the war medal. But we should not forget Most of them joined up with the 2nd Battalion The that that was not the only front. Three other armistices MonmouthshireRegimentandtheSouthWalesBorderers, were signed in the preceding weeks of 1918, with Bulgaria but many others as well. Some 65 of those who died on 30 September, Austria-Hungary on 3 November, were in the Royal Navy, despite the fact that the south and the Ottoman Empire on 30 October,ending hostilities Wales valleys were not naval areas. That included a on the Turkish front the following day. relative of mine who was killed in the Battle of Jutland. My father was a wartime soldier in the Royal Artillery Six served in the very young Royal Air Force. This in the First World War, first in France and Belgium, coming week, the Royal Welsh Regimental Association until he was wounded at Passchendaele, and after a of Torfaen, of which I am president, will play a hospital in France and convalescence in England he significant role locally and beyond that. The Cwmbran was sent to join the so-called Egyptian Expeditionary and District Ex-Servicemen’s Association has been Force in Palestine under General Allenby. He therefore chosen to represent south Wales, among others, at served on both the Western and Turkish fronts. Ypres, in the coming celebration and commemoration there. In 1914, we British had underestimated the Turkish forces, but we had learned our lesson the hard way. Four women from my valley died in the First World Our naval attempt to force the Dardanelles was thwarted, War. One was in the RAF and the other three were with great loss. The increasingly desperate attempt nurses. The Minister touched on what happened over months to advance at Gallipoli was defeated, also afterwards: the life of women changed dramatically. with terrible loss of life.The first advance in Mesopotamia In 1918, they received the vote, although my led to a humiliating surrender at Kut. Later we recovered grandmother—because of her class—had to wait another the ground, but we did not get all that much further in 10 years before she was able to vote. It has often struck Mesopotamia. me that I actually knew my grandmother; she did not In trying to advance up the coast of Palestine from really have the opportunity to cast that vote until she Egypt we lost the first two battles of Gaza, right at the was in her 50s. More than 100 senior and significant start. By then, 1917, we certainly did not underestimate medals were won by the men of Torfaen and I pay the quality or fighting spirit of the Turkish army, nor tribute to them. the skill and leadership of its commanders, including Mustafa Kemal, later known as Atatürk—the founder It is quite interesting that the war began with enormous of secular Turkey—and German generals such as von enthusiasm and euphoria. The Reverend Williams was Sanders. the rector of the parish of Panteg in the eastern valley. Through his sermons and his speeches, he encouraged General Allenby’s army was skilfully led and, in a the men of the valley to sign up. It is said that by 1918, war of manoeuvre and surprise, it won the Third he was a broken man because of the shock of the fates Battle of Gaza, and then went on to capture Jerusalem of so many young people whom he had urged to sign in December 1917. Once his army had been reinforced up to fight in that war. with Indian and Empire troops to replace those withdrawn for the Western Front, he pressed on again and won The men of the eastern valley were commemorated the Battle of Megiddo in the following year. 100 years ago this weekend. The church bells rang in The Plain of Jezreel had seen two great battles our valley churches, as they will in this great city, but before in history. In 609 BC, the Bible tells us that the the hooters of the factories and the steelworks, and Egyptians won a major battle at Megiddo in their war the whistles of the locomotive collieries, also celebrated with the Babylonians. Almost a millennium before the end of that war. It is significant that during this that, the hieroglyphs at Luxor tell us that in the first debate we will hear many stories of ordinary men, Battle of Megiddo, in around 1457 BC, the Egyptians and sometimes women, who lost their lives in the crushed the Canaanite forces on much the same ground conflict. in an epic battle. It is through these great ancient The services held 100 years ago this week, and battles that Har Megiddo is known to us as Armageddon. those to be held this week, are not just for those who In 1918, Allenby’s crushing victory at Megiddo enabled died but for those who came back as well: those who him to capture Damascus, then Beirut and Aleppo; so, were injured, psychologically and physically, and indeed with our armies on the edge of Turkey itself, it led to for all the men, women and children who remained at the Armistice of 31 October.It also led to the ennoblement home. Tragically, of course, two decades later it all of Viscount Allenby of Megiddo. Many of us remember happened again. The significance of this week should Michael, the third Viscount, who made such a valuable be that when we look back at history, as we must, we contribution to the Cross Benches. learn those lessons. We did not learn them in 1938-39 The slaughter on the Turkish front was not perhaps in quite the same way as perhaps we can today, but on the same industrial scale as that on the Western we can still remember those men, and sometimes Front, but it was huge. Many of the troops involved women, whose courage inspires us and whose sacrifice came from Britain’s loyal Empire, in particular from is still undoubted. the wider India—as it was then defined—and from 1555 Armistice Day: Centenary [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1556

Australia and New Zealand. We should not forget this One of the initiatives which I refer to is the specially theatre of the Great War. It led to the long-predicted commissioned poppy made out of khadi, the homespun end of the Ottoman Empire. My father’s letters home cotton made famous by Mahatma Gandhi. I am delighted at the time reflect his relief at having survived the to see so many Members of your Lordships’ House war—and of course I share that sentiment. wearing this poppy, and I would like to explain its The armistices, including that on the Western Front, background and poignant symbolism. During India’s were phrased as temporary truces, which fortunately freedom struggle, Gandhi promoted the use of a spinning were extended. The final tragedy of the Great War was wheel to make India more self-sufficient and to support the peace conference; the powerful speech just now of rural employment. The resulting hand-woven fabric, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, explains or khadi, became synonymous with India’sindependence why. The emotions and political pressures involved movement. were inevitably huge. Wavell, then an officer on Allenby’s Although many associate Gandhi with non-violence staff but later field marshal, commented at the time: and vigorously opposing the British Raj, his behaviour “After the war to end all wars they seem to have”, during World War I was highly revealing. At the made a, outbreak of war, Gandhi was on a ship from South “‘Peace to end Peace’”. Africa homeward bound to India, with a scheduled That is how things turned out, both in Europe and in stop in England. On 6 August 1914, he landed in the Middle East. It is a message to us, as the noble and Southampton and almost immediately declared his gallant Lord said, that we must not forget. unconditional support for the war effort, losing no time in calling a meeting of his Indian friends to raise an ambulance unit. Instead of exploiting Britain’s 4.17 pm vulnerability, he said, Lord Gadhia (Non-Afl): My Lords, I would like to “it was our duty to win their help by standing by them in their focus my remarks today on the crucial contribution hour of need”. made by over 3 million Commonwealth soldiers during What was meant to be a brief sojourn in London World War I, almost half of whom came from undivided turned into a four-month stop-over, during which India, encompassing present-day Pakistan and Gandhi personally chaired a committee recruiting Bangladesh. My noble friend Lord Lexden led an members for the Indian field ambulance corps and excellent debate on this topic on 4 June this year, even took nursing classes himself.When Gandhi eventually during which he highlighted comments by David Lloyd returned to India, he was active in enlisting volunteers George, who said of the Commonwealth that, to the Indian army, including from difficult-to-reach “had they stayed at home ... the history of the world would have areas, such as his home state of Gujarat. Openly taken a different course”. proclaiming himself as the “recruiting agent-in-chief’, The swift arrival of Indian troops on the Western he defied criticism from his own friends and colleagues. Front in September 1914 was absolutely critical to Although he was always careful to make clear that: preventing a German breakthrough. A sepoy named “I personally will not kill or injure anybody, friend or foe”, Khudadad Khan was awarded the first of 11 Indian Gandhi’s principled and loyal support was crucial at a Victoria Crosses after valiantly staying at his machine difficult time in India’s relationship with Britain. gun when all his colleagues were killed around him. Without men like him, the war might quickly have That is the profound significance of the khadi been lost. In all, 74,000 Indians serving in multiple poppy. It is a highly appropriate gesture, not just to continents, from the Somme to the Sahara, never recognise the outsized contribution of Indian soldiers, returned home. but by invoking the courageous solidarity of Mahatma Gandhi. In keeping with that spirit, the design is Given this remarkable courage and sacrifice, it has identical in almost every respect, including its colour, been a personal privilege for me to collaborate with to the traditional poppy, apart from the hugely symbolic the Royal British Legion and with my honourable twist of using khadi. It does not seek to single out just friend Tom Tugendhat—who I am pleased to see has one group but remembers everyone: it is a unifying joined us at the Bar—on a series of activities to symbol for us all. highlight this often-forgotten history.As parliamentarians, strongly committed to making “Global Britain” a I hope that it also sends a powerful signal to Asians reality and not just a slogan, our challenge is harnessing growing up in Britain and inspires the next generation this shared history and making it relevant for future to understand their own identity. They should know generations in both countries. that their parents and grandparents did not just come In doing so, we have sought to build on the pioneering here as immigrants. Our ancestors fought for this work of other Members of your Lordships’ House, country and for freedom and democracy, even though notably the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, who led the they lived in a colony at the time. We therefore have as commissioning of the Memorial Gates on Constitution great a stake here as anyone else. Indeed, everyone Hill and my noble friend Lord Bilimoria, who has from the Commonwealth should be proud of the role consistently championed this cause, given his family’s which their forebears played in shaping the destiny of own distinguished background in the Armed Forces. I the world a century ago. would also like to acknowledge my noble friend Lord The scandalous treatment of the Windrush generation Sheikh, who led another excellent debate in this Chamber shows what can happen when history is forgotten. It as far back as December 2013, and my noble friend demonstrates the value of having an honest conversation Lord Rana, whose native state of Punjab provided so about Britain’s colonial legacy and how this can be a many heroic Sikh soldiers. cathartic process. This is particularly important given 1557 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1558

[LORD GADHIA] or two governors-general. After I completed the family that our country is now home to an estimated 6 million tree, I thought to myself: “Beat that if you can”. people from Commonwealth countries—around one Buoyed up by my success in completing that family in 10 of our population. The centenary of the war has tree, I am now in the process of doing my mother’s. provided a welcome opportunity for having this It is a work in progress, but I have so far identified conversation. Next year’s centenary of the Jallianwala 11 generals, one ambassador and two admirals, one of Bagh massacre, on 13 April 2019, will provide another whom was awarded the VC. So, in my mind, her family such opportunity. definitely did beat that. I was in the Army for a few Just as the poppy symbolises remembrance in Britain, years, but I never reached their dizzy heights. With in India it is the marigold, which is worn on Armed hindsight, I must have been a bitter disappointment to Force Flag Day, held on 7 December every year. The both families; I broke the mould. flower’s saffron yellow colour is associated by many Seven of my grandparents’ generation fought in the with self-sacrifice. The Indian armed forces have First World War; three of my great-uncles were killed. undertaken an ambitious project to raise their own This is not a dissimilar experience from that of millions awareness about India’s role during the First World of other families. During the Second World War, my War. Crucially, they have unearthed contemporary father and uncle both joined up and happily survived. accounts by Indian soldiers, which will change how Strangely, I never heard either of them talk about their future histories are written. These accounts confirm experiences during the war; I learned more about their what might seem surprising: that Indians who volunteered, war after they died. One can understand why many of just like their British counterparts, believed profoundly that generation wanted to draw a line under their that their cause was just. It confirms that upholding a painful experiences and just move on. sense of duty is a trait which runs deep in both That is not quite true. My father mentioned just countries, typified by the festival of Diwali which, by two incidents. The first was when we were talking coincidence, falls this year in the same week as about a friend of mine. My father said: remembrance. “Of course, he was my godson. It was such a pity that his This reminder of the values which bind Britain and father, Nigel, never knew that he had a son”. India together is timely, since it comes at a moment When I pressed him to explain, he said that his tank when threats to freedom and the world order confront battalion was advancing on the enemy in Normandy both countries. So, on Remembrance Sunday, when and when he looked to his right, he saw Nigel’s tank the Member for Tonbridge and Malling lays a wreath being blown up and on fire. He then saw Nigel, his in Delhi and a British Indian Peer pays his respects in great friend, escaping through the turret with his clothes Westminster Abbey, the wheel of history will have on fire. He died before he hit the ground. Millions of come full circle. On Saturday, at the Royal Albert Hall, servicemen must have had similar experiences. Her Majesty the Queen will hear a reading of the The second occasion was when I was a young famous poem “The Gift of India” written by Sarojini officer. My father insisted on taking me to Belsen Naidu, Mahatma Gandhi’sfriend, in which she demanded concentration camp. While there, he said that he and that we: other officers and men were made to visit the camp the “Remember the blood of my martyred sons”. day after it was liberated, in order to witness first-hand On this important anniversary, we will. But we will go the horrendous things that had taken place there. He a step further, by committing to build a better world said that the horrors of what they saw that day stuck for the next generation. with him as if it were yesterday. War is a horrific business, and all of us living today have much for which to thank those who fought and 4.26 pm died, men and women, so that we can live with the Earl Cathcart (Con): My Lords, Armistice Day and freedoms, peace and democracy that we so cherish—and Remembrance Sunday are about remembering all those— perhaps, to some extent, take for granted. Long may both men and women—who fought and died during we remember them. the wars. It is often a very private remembrance for us to remember those in our own families who fought in 4.31pm the wars, some of whom died. The noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, talked about research Baroness Crawley (Lab): My Lords, my noble friend into our family histories. I have recently completed Lady Andrews has said that the poets got it right, and our family tree and I got the Cathcarts back, father didn’t they just: and son, to the Normans. The first few were knights “In Flanders fields the poppies blow Between the crosses, row on row before they were created Barons in about 1400. In That mark our place”. 1513, all the Cathcart brothers were annihilated—killed Later in John McCrae’s poem he writes: at the Battle of Flodden, along with their King, James IV “If ye break faith with us who die of Scotland. Luckily, the eldest brother already had a We shall not sleep, though poppies grow baby son, otherwise I would not be standing here In Flanders fields”. today. Thank goodness they had no family planning in I hope that we have not broken faith as we acknowledge those days. the centenary of the Armistice in 1918. We have a My father was the seventh general in the direct line particular responsibility, because the century passes of Cathcarts, with three other generals in branches of on our watch and we need to tell the story forward, the tree, making a total of 10 generals in all. There louder than ever, to keep faith with those who gave were also four ambassadors in the direct line, and one their lives 100 years ago. 1559 Armistice Day: Centenary [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1560

Nine young men went from Balscote, my village in has benefited from the Government’s guidance in its Oxfordshire: John L Compton, Sydney Cox, Henry work with young people from Chile. Why Chile? The Coles, Thomas Cook, Arthur WM Gardner, Eric British and Chilean youngsters are remembering the Hitchcox, Herbert Hitchcox, Cyril Kempson and 1914 naval battle of Coronel off that coast. Christopher Skuse. So many young men, from cities, The Commonwealth War Graves Commission towns and villages all over this country, volunteered, continues its outstanding work in keeping faith with were later conscripted, and were often devoured by the those who died and in constantly reworking and war. As Wilfred Owen said: reimagining the story for future generations. Let us “What candles may be held to speed them all?” determine that, 100 years from now, our grandchildren’s My own great-uncles from the west of Ireland were grandchildren will still keep faith with those who sleep just some of the 200,000 Irish who fought alongside in Flanders fields. allied forces—it was indeed a long way to Tipperary. As the noble Lord, Lord Gadhia, said, young men in 4.37 pm their millions came from the Empire, including Hindus, Lord Bilimoria (CB): My Lords, I remember discussing Muslims and Sikhs from pre-partition India who fought Brexit at Harvard Business School with one of the at Neuve Chapelle, breaking through the German great professors there, an authority on negotiation in defence for the first time, and at Ypres, Givenchy, the world today. He said that he had been reading a Loos, Festubert, and of course the Somme. book about the build-up to the First World War, and They came from Africa—95,000 of the East African that it was like watching a train crash in slow motion. Carrier Corps gave their lives—South Africa, Australia, The poppy that we wear is a bond between the New Zealand, Canada, Newfoundland and the Caribbean. living and the dead. As the noble Lord, Lord Gadhia, The Jewish Zion Mule Corps and the Chinese Labour said in his excellent speech, he worked with the Royal Corps, which numbered 100,000, served alongside the British Legion to specially commission the khadi poppy British Expeditionary Force. With none of them do that I am wearing with pride. It is made of handwoven we break faith. cotton made famous by Mahatma Gandhi. The poppy Nearer to home, they came from across Europe emphasises our gratitude for the 1.5 million volunteers— —a Europe that we are moving away from, I fear. In a the British Legion says that it is to say thank you to recent visit to Plymouth, the city in which I grew up, I them—who served from every corner of the then realised on rereading the names of the fallen on the undivided India; they were not conscripts. It was the magnificent naval war memorial there that on one of largest British Empire armed force besides the British our ships, the entire ship’s band, all 26 of them, had Army itself. There were 13,000 medals for gallantry, Italian names—names such as Baldacchino, Carmando, including 11 awards of the Victoria Cross. The British Cavallazzi and Consiglio. Two had the same name, Legion says that together we can ensure that: Portoghese. Perhaps they were brothers or cousins or “Remembrance is understood and available to all, and handed even father and son. Everyone who served and died in to the next generation”. this war has a right to be remembered and their story Yet although the noble Lord said that a poem is going told. to be read out on 10 November, I do not know if, at But the story, as many noble Lords have said, is this huge event at the Royal Albert Hall which will be incomplete if we do not honour the part played by watched by millions around the world, the British women; the redoubtable women who against all odds legion will specifically acknowledge the contribution gave service at the front in the field hospitals and of the 1.5 million Indians. If it does not, it will be a who joined the Women’s Army Auxiliary Corps as missed opportunity. The Minister said that a great mechanics, cooks, drivers and clerks. In total, more deal of the commemoration of World War I has been than 100,000 women joined Britain’s Armed Forces about youth. Well, there is no better time for us to during the war, and Louise Jordan’s current one-woman reach out across the country, and especially to our show, “No Petticoats Here”, which is amazing, tells us youth and our schoolchildren, to tell them about the about these unsung heroines. amazing service and sacrifice, not just from the While women had worked outside the home before Commonwealth, but in particular from India. 1914, they now really took up the heavy lifting in what Today British Asians make up the largest ethnic- had been men-only work in the ammunition factories minority community in the UK. This is an opportunity where conditions were often harsh, such as the for the whole nation to recognise, appreciate and Birmingham Small Arms Company factory in my thank these individuals. That would strengthen the former European Parliament constituency.They worked wonderful multicultural, pluralist, tolerant nation which in transport and in the police. In 1916, Evelyn Miles Britain has become—a Britain that celebrates its diversity. became the first woman to join the police in Birmingham. This ethnic-minority contribution is the greatest strength As Evelyn Underhill wrote in her poem “Non- of this tiny country, no longer with the empire it had combatants”: during the First World War but still the fifth-largest “Never of us be said, economy in the world. We had no war to wage”. One of my earliest childhood memories was walking The Government’s programme of centenary into our Zoroastrian Parsi fire temple in Hyderabad commemorations has been fitting, creative and respectful and seeing a portrait of an army officer. I have since in its offer and its delivery and especially in its work realised that officer was Captain Firoz Bapuji Chinoy, directly with young people, and I heartily congratulate who served in the British Army Medical Corps during the Government. The London-based youth orchestra, World War I and died in Iran in 1918. I was sent the Musiko Musika, of which I am proud to be a patron, details of another Parsi medical officer, Captain Hiraji 1561 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1562

[LORD BILIMORIA] That message needs to go out. This is the opportunity. Cursetji, who was awarded the Distinguished Service As the noble Lord, Lord Gadhia, said, even Mahatma Order for his bravery during the final stages of the Gandhi, who was totally for non-violence, took part campaign in Mesopotamia, now Iraq. This was a in the First World War by founding an ambulance theatre of war in which the Indian Army played a vital unit, the Indian Ambulance Corps. role. His citation states: We are celebrating the centenary of the RAF: it “For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty at Mushaq, started during the First World War. 26th-27th October and at Sharquat, 29th October. Throughout We must not forget that we now have the Armed the operations he displayed the greatest zeal and disregard for danger while tending the wounded under heavy fire, working Forces covenant, introduced in 2011. A moral obligation unceasingly for forty-eight hours. He has previously rendered exists between the nation, the Government and the excellent service, and once was severely wounded”. Armed Forces in return for the sacrifices they make. This captain retired as Major-General Sir Hiraji This is now enshrined in law. In particular, our veterans Cursetji of the Indian Medical Service. Yet do we should suffer no disadvantage and should be given realise that, except for the medical officers, the 1.5 million special consideration. For six years I was proud to be a Indians who served in the First World War were not commissioner of the Chelsea Pensioners at the Royal allowed to become officers; and that it was only after Hospital Chelsea. Two decades after World War I we the First World War that the British allowed, from had World War II—two decades later we had nuclear 1922 to 1932, eight Indians per course at Sandhurst to war. Peace in Europe has existed thanks to the European become officers? They were called King’s commissioned Union, not just NATO. It has existed because we are officers and my grandfather,Brigadier Noshire Bilimoria, still a strong defence power, not just a soft power. It was one of them. My father,the late Lieutenant-General has existed because of NATO and because we need to Bilimoria, was commissioned into the Indian Military maintain the strength of our defence—not spending Academy and into the 2/5 Gorkha Rifles (Frontier just 2% of GDP but 3%, I believe. Our youth needs to Force). He ended up becoming colonel of his regiment, learn about the 1.5 million troops from India, and president of the Gorkha Brigade and commander-in-chief to remember. of the central army in India. In a statement to the House of Commons on The regiments of the Gurkhas in India today have 11 November 1918 the British Prime Minister, David six battalions each, yet sadly we have only 3,000 Gurkhas Lloyd George, set out the terms of Armistice and said: today.Today, the British Army cannot even fill Wembley “Thus at 11 o’clock this morning came to the end the cruellest Stadium. The Indian Army numbers 1.2 million people and most terrible war that has ever scourged mankind. I hope we may say that thus, this fateful morning, came to an end all and another 1 million reserves. Today it was announced wars”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/11/1918; col. 2463.] that we need to recruit, from the Commonwealth, Sadly not, but as Ben Okri, the Booker prize-winning citizens who have not even lived in the UK because of author says on the Memorial Gates: a shortage of 3,000 per year into the British Army. Look at just one battalion, the 1/5 Royal Gorkha “Our future is greater than our past”. Rifles, which served in the Suez Canal zone and at Gallipoli. In that campaign, of 410,000 British Empire troops, 213,980 were casualties. That was the scale of 4.48 pm this war. The 1/5 also fought in Mesopotamia, where Baroness Seccombe (Con): My Lords, at this time of my father’s battalion, the 2/5, also fought. The casualties year my mind begins to focus on the fast-approaching from this one battalion, the 1/5, in the First World commemoration of the Armistice at the end of the War numbered: killed or died of wounds, 221; wounded, First World War, a war which, as we have heard 748; missing, four; died of disease, 40. More Indians several times this afternoon, was supposed to end all fought for the British between 1914 and 1918 than the wars. Sadly, that was never going to happen. combined total for Australia, New Zealand, Canada and South Africa. Some 74,000 Indian soldiers were There is so much that could be said on this subject, killed on the battlefields of Europe, Africa and the but today I want to address the treatment of mental Middle East, but the part they played in the war has health issues. On 11 November 1918, there must have largely been whitewashed from history. On top of this, been much celebration in the knowledge that the daily there were 16,000 West Indians and 18,000 troops carnage would cease. There was very little reporting of from Africa. the shocking numbers who returned home broken The noble Lord, Lord Gadhia, mentioned the physically, while others had mental health issues. These Memorial Gates, which Her Majesty the Queen officially problems were not even recognised. It must have been inaugurated on 6 November 2002. The driving force very difficult for families welcoming their men back behind them, my noble friend Lady Flather, is to this home, after four long years fighting for their King and day the life president. It is a living memorial to honour country, and then returning as changed people to a the, very different world. “five million men and women from the Indian sub-continent, My own father went to war with the Somerset Light Africa and the Caribbean who volunteered to serve with the Infantry as a strong, robust young man, but after three Armed Forces of the Crown during the First and Second World Wars”. bouts of rheumatic fever he was sent to a different They also celebrate: regiment when he was considered well enough to “The contribution that these men and women and their return to the front line. Five years later, he left with descendants, members of the Commonwealth family, continue to a heart condition, from which he died when I was make to the rich diversity of British society”. 10 years old. 1563 Armistice Day: Centenary [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1564

The contribution from the Empire was both brought people in and achieved a consensus. We all extraordinary and humbling, and we should never owe him a great deal for his efforts. He is in the House forget that their catastrophic loss of men must have today and I thank him for all the work he has done. been as shattering to them as it was to us. What all Over the past few years, I have certainly learned a these brave men witnessed must have been so agonising, great deal about World War I. I thought I knew a bit it is no wonder that few could bear to speak of it. —but, clearly, I missed many of the critical things. I Over the last two or three weeks, I have watched am very proud to wear the khadi poppy today, because some of the Invictus Games, led so brilliantly by His I had not fully appreciated that lesson in 2013. I Royal Highness Prince Harry. It was impossible not to appreciate it now and we owe a deep debt of gratitude be moved by the effect the games had on the participants to those brave souls from India who came in those and their families and, of course, on the millions who days and fought. watched as I did. I cast my mind back to the dark days of 1918 when mental health issues were not even One thing I have learned is that it/this is quite recognised, never mind treated. These problems were amazing when we look at history—even crudely and something to be ashamed of, and so were hidden from not in a sophisticated way. We see the recruits and the outside world. volunteers from Australia, New Zealand and Canada who flocked to come and fight for the old country—the These were issues that affected the whole family. It mother country. Then you stop and think: most of was tragic that no help was on hand to support men these people—these Australians, New Zealanders and who had been through so much. If violence became Canadians—had not been born in Australia, New too much for the family to bear, medical help was Zealand or Canada. They had been born in Britain sought, and I am sure that after many consultations, and left this country because they were fed up with the sectioning could be ordered. This was the ultimate social class system, which they felt held them back. In sanction, with the patient being not only deprived of 1914, the federal Government and every single state his liberty but taken away from his family. government in Australia was run by the Labour Party. In 1918, life was harsh. It was easier for society to I make that not as a party point but to substantiate my accept physical problems, as they could be seen and point that these were the rebels. But when the call understood, but many men led appallingly painful came to fight for the mother country, they flocked to lives from the hidden injuries they received. Antibiotics come—and if it had not been mishandled by the were not available at that time to treat the ghastly federal Labour Government, they might even have got wounds many men bore, often resulting in sepsis and conscription through. But they were not able to do so. countless horrors. I thought it was a very significant point: why the heck In 2018, I was spellbound by the stories of the should they come back and fight for us when they felt competitors in the Invictus Games and the transformation as they did? But they did. of their lives. Today, we marvel at the skill of the We can see the success of the past four years and all doctors, surgeons and nurses, and are grateful for the the work by the various bodies that have assisted the brilliant and generous contribution made by all Government. We think of the Heritage Lottery Fund, the voluntary bodies dedicated to restoring shattered which invested almost £100 million in over 2,000 initiatives, military men and women. most of them at local level, to ensure that we discovered I salute all those who, over the generations, have more history—more facts about how World War I fought to defend our liberty and democracy. Indeed, affected people at local level. We look at the British we must never forget their sacrifice. But I thank God I Legion and the wonderful work it has done over the am alive today, and not 100 years ago. century since it was formed, and especially over the past four years. I look at how supportive the National Archives at Kew have been; I also look at local archives, 4.52 pm which are under great financial pressure, as was alluded Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab): My Lords, I to from the Liberal Benches earlier today. It has been a declare an interest as Member of this House elected to great strain on those archivists to try to satisfy the the Joint Committee on commemorating World War 1. demands of people trying to find out about what On 3 March five years ago, I had the privilege of happened to their ancestors in World War I. I pay leading a debate on how we in this House felt that the tribute to the teachers who have done so much work, commemoration should go. I must say at the outset not only in taking pupils across to see the battlefields that I am full of admiration for the way in which the under the Government’s adventurous scheme, which I Government have handled the issue. It could have fully support. They have done a wonderful job, but it been tricky; there could have been jingoism or celebration. has taken a lot of time, as it has with local archives. We do not think of those things now, but five years There are historical lessons that perhaps we ought ago it was a concern for all of us—so I gladly congratulate to think about. A number of people, including the the Government on the way they have handled this. To noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, have quite rightly follow these sentiments, we must work out a way of made the point that in a sense this is unfinished continuing to pursue some of the problems that have business. Looking at the global picture, that is absolutely been outlined in the last five years. right—but we could act now on more immediate issues, I will also single out and pay particular tribute to which would perhaps help us in learning about the Dr Andrew Murrison MP, the Prime Minister’s special past and preparing for the future. We are beginning to representative on the centenary of World War I. He appreciate how important freedom of information is; has worked amazingly hard. He has been inclusive, it is an intrinsic part of our democracy.I fully understand 1565 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1566

[LORD CLARK OF WINDERMERE] its character and are responsible for its future. One that you cannot be completely open when you are purpose of commemoration, as the noble and gallant waging war, but I wonder whether the obsessive secrecy Lord, Lord Stirrup, put it in an admirable speech, is to that still pervades a lot of activity in World War I, and learn. The question is: have we learned? We will come even more so in World War II, stops us from learning to that later. what went on. I want to follow the footsteps of my father a little I mentioned schoolchildren, and much of the further. He volunteered in 1914, abandoning his degree disappointment of schoolchildren has come when they course in classics. He had got a first in mods. He went have tried to look back at the records of their ancestors. into a territorial regiment from Hampshire and was Bearing in mind that the overwhelming majority of shipped out with it to India. He trained at Quetta and their ancestors were ordinary squaddies, ordinary fighting was put with his unit into four ships which were part non-commissioned men, almost all the records affecting of a large convoy heading to the Western Front. The those individuals were destroyed during World War II. troops were principally Indians, so I entirely agree They were bombed because they had not been put in a with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, safe place. The records of all the officers are safe, but on their importance, because throughout the campaign not of the ordinary squaddies. So there are a lot of my father was among a principally Indian force fielded questions we have to look at, which makes things very by the Indian Government. The delays at the beginning difficult. were due to a disagreement between Delhi and I am not a pacifist, but I have done a lot of work Westminster about what the objective was. It finished with people who were conscientious objectors. I have up being Baghdad. seen a plus and a minus in that. I have to give credit to the establishment in Britain, especially the parliamentary This is a good time to look at the Turkish campaign, establishment, which recognised that there were good not only because, as my noble friend Lord Cope said, conscientious reasons why certain people were not it is somewhat overlooked, but because today is the prepared to fight. We made arrangements so those 104th anniversary of the declaration of war on the people could be excused—whereas in manyother countries Turks by the British—so this is a very apposite moment there was no such finesse. If they disagreed, they were at which to look back at that extraordinary campaign. sent to the front and shot. Wewere much more civilised— It started at Basra, which we got to know again during but only barely, because anybody who was judged to the unfortunate Iraqi escapade. The British force fought be objecting but not conscientiously suffered greatly. its way for getting on for 100 miles to Ctesiphon, where the advance party, which was the major part of I interviewed people like Willie Brooke, in the the force, such was the generalship of the day, met a Huddersfield area at the time. He was a conscientious Turkish force. The advance party had met only outposts objector. He was an active member of the Independent before as they fought their way on foot. The Turkish Labour Party and a practising and active member of force defending Ctesiphon was almost exactly twice the Baptist Church—and he was not prepared to fight. the size of the British force and was fresh out of He went all the way. Eventually he was sentenced to Baghdad. The British force lost two-thirds of its men two years’hard labour,much of it in solitary confinement, and then had to make a fighting retreat to a fortified in Wormwood Scrubs.It was better than being shot—but, bend in the River Tigris, which it defended against the at times, I bet he had his doubts. Turks. Wemust give credit where credit is due.As Dr Murrison said the other day, we are the envy of many other The conditions were appalling. The well-known countries. But it is not only that people are full of envy Arab phrase about the Mesopotamian valley is that for us: as I said to him, they are full of admiration for when Allah made hell, it was not bad enough, so he us. But we must not forget the lessons and must try to invented Mesopotamia and then added the flies. The move forward with much more openness and information flies were monstrous in their number. You could not available. see your horse’s head for flies in bad weather. The ground was alternately baked solid, so you could 5.03 pm hardly get a trenching tool into it, or powdery dust Lord Elton (Con): My Lords, I start by echoing which turned to a sort of sloppy treacle when it rained what has been said in praise of the Government’s and through which you had to advance. efforts to bring the Armistice and Great War to the In Kut al-Amara, where they were besieged for five notice of the nation. Commemoration has changed months, the British force dug three lines of trenches very much. In 1938, I was being driven by my father in across the two bends in the river that made the loop so his car down Broad Street in Oxford. When we got to they were fortified in the loop. There was a small town the join between Trinity College and Balliol, going there. They had more supplies than they might have towards the station, there was the most enormous expected because the town was an advanced supply bang that surprised me greatly. What surprised me dump for the expected advance on Baghdad. By the more was that, at that moment, all the traffic stopped, end of the siege, the troops had undergone various all the engines were turned off, all the pedestrians horrors. Apart from constant bombardment, the Tigris stopped walking and all the men took off their hats flooded the trenches on both sides. They had to retreat and bowed their head. It remained like that, a tableau to the third lines, and they were waist-deep in water. In suspended in time, for two minutes until life resumed. the winter months it got so cold that the blankets What happens now is entirely different, but in a way which were all the troops had to put over their heads it penetrates more deeply into the consciousness of against the rain froze to the parapet. In his book, society—of the people who make up this country and Colonel Spackman records that those who came out 1567 Armistice Day: Centenary[5 NOVEMBER 2018] Brexit: Arrangements for EU Citizens 1568 from France said that until they had seen Mesopotamia to the speech by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord they had no idea what real suffering was. I have seen Stirrup—whether or not we stand on the lip of another photographs of the troops at the end of the siege and era. I very much think that we do. We need to look at they exactly resemble the photographs of prisoners in what is needed to survive, in terms of courage, honesty Belsen, to which a noble Lord referred—toast-racks. and self-sacrifice, for any country to succeed. Society Then the horror began. They had surrendered and must be just, and your Lordships will recognise that the officers were separated from the men. I am somewhat there are open questions about how we settle our confused in my delivery because only this morning I society so it is at peace with itself and regards itself as found a long document that my father wrote to his being just. father from the prison camp that he eventually finished I have gone on for too long, but I was very excited up in. I shall give noble Lords an idea of what it was by the document that I found and I feel passionately like immediately after the surrender—after they had that we are on the edge of great events that we have to said goodbye to their scarecrow troops: forestall. “But officers coming later over the same roads north of Baghdad have brought uglier tales than these: of British soldiers found dying naked & alone on dungheaps on the fringe of some Brexit: Arrangements for EU Citizens Arab town; or straggling from the march & not seen again; of Statement men whose faces were livid dust-masks unrecognisable to close friends; men knocked on the head or buried scarcely dead; a poor 5.15 pm death for an Englishman indeed … By October reports said that not more than six hundred of the two thousand three hundred The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams British were alive & they were dying still, incapable of the work of Trafford) (Con): My Lords, with the leave of the given them, diseased & without doctors, unburied often, sometimes House, I will repeat in the form of a Statement the buried scarcely dead. Such were facts you may one day know at Answer given by my right honourable friend Caroline home as well as we; but the horror of these men’s deaths you will never quite imagine, forgotten, they must have thought themselves, Nokes to an Urgent Question in another place. The by God & men. I have seen the country, great, lonely, inscrutable; Statement is as follows: I knew the men & I have a fair imagination for horrors, but I can “Mr Speaker, while we are confident in agreeing a imagine nothing more horrible than this. Did any soldiers who good deal for both sides, as a responsible Government fell in these wars suffer more or longer for their country, or with we will continue to prepare for all scenarios, including less earthly reward?” the unlikely outcome that we leave the EU without any That is focused on the British contingent. The same deal in March 2019. We have reached an agreement horrors or worse were being undergone by the Indians. with the EU on citizens’ rights that will protect those The point I will make very briefly is this: what did it EU citizens and their family members who are resident do to my father? He went through part of that horrible in the UK until the end of the planned implementation march himself and got into officers’ confinement, period on 31 December 2020. which was better than the men’s. When he came back We are introducing the EU settlement scheme under to England, he was convinced of something that he UK immigration law for resident EU citizens and their later wrote in a book: “I have only two prejudices: one family members covered by the draft withdrawal is for democracy and the other is that I am a Christian”. agreement. This will enable those who are resident in His reaction, noble Lords opposite will be pleased to the UK before the end of the planned implementation hear, was to stand as a Labour candidate for a Bristol period on 31 December 2020 to confirm their status constituency. He became a right-hand man to Ramsay under the EU settlement scheme. Anyone who already MacDonald and, after losing one election and very has five years’ continuous residence in the UK when nearly winning the second, was put into your Lordships’ they apply under the scheme will be eligible to apply House. for settled status. Those who have not yet reached five Fast forward to, I suppose, 1947. He took me for a years’ continuous residence will be eligible to be granted walk in the fields, obviously with some intention. He pre-settled status and will be able to apply for settled said, “I know you’ll be interested in what I’ve been status once they reach the five-year point. doing in Westminster. I thought you’d like to know In the unlikely event of a no deal, the Prime Minister that now the National Health Act is on the statute has already confirmed that all EU citizens resident book, every objective for which I joined the Labour here by 29 March 2019 will be welcome to stay. They Party has been achieved. I see no purpose in belonging are part of our community, and part of our country, to any political party and I am going to sit on the and we welcome the contribution that they make. Last Cross Benches”, which he did thereafter. He played a week, the Prime Minister extended that commitment notable part in the interwar years. On the eve of the to citizens of Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein, and war, he was foremost among those who said we simply we are close to reaching an agreement with Switzerland. had to stand up to Nazism. All that suffering did not We will set out further details shortly so that those deter him from the necessity of standing up to what he affected can have the clarity and certainty they need”. saw as sheer evil. 5.17 pm He went on to say in his book—I will finish in a minute—that we stood at the beginning of another Lord Rosser (Lab): I thank the Minister for repeating era, and that the decision had to be whether that era the Answer to the Urgent Question in the other place. would be formed by Hitler and those who thought like Last week the Immigration Minister told the Commons him or by us and the Americans and those who Home Affairs Select Committee that in the event of a thought like us. The question is—and again I go back no-deal Brexit: 1569 Brexit: Arrangements for EU Citizens[LORDS] Brexit: Arrangements for EU Citizens 1570

[LORD ROSSER] Baroness Williams of Trafford: She has not contradicted “If somebody has not been here prior to the end of March the Prime Minister, as far as I am aware. Employers next year, then employers will have to make sure that they go will carry out those right-to-work checks, as they have through adequately rigorous checks to evidence somebody’s right to date. The beta testing scheme over the past couple to work”. of months has already started the ball rolling for First, was that statement correct in all respects: that citizens regularising their status to be able to stay in employers after 29 March 2019 will have to differentiate this country. That will be rolled out more fully in the between resident EU citizens already here and those new year. arriving after our departure from the EU? Secondly, if the Immigration Minister’s statement was correct, what form will these “rigorous checks” after 29 March take Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con): My Lords, I that employers will have to make sure that EU citizens understood from the Minister in the other place that not already here prior to that date will have to go the Government are minded to bring forward an through to evidence their right to work? How will immigration Bill shortly that will set out the criteria these rigorous checks differ from what employers have for skilled workers post Brexit. Will my noble friend to do at present when EU citizens seek work here give the House an assurance that those currently filling under the existing EU free movement of labour provisions? positions in care places and hospitals who are not Finally,when will sadly lacking publicly available written deemed to be skilled workers will still be admitted guidance on this specific issue be provided? after Brexit to continue to fill those roles if they are not filled otherwise? Baroness Williams of Trafford: I thank the noble Lord for that question. Regarding employer checks, he Baroness Williams of Trafford: My noble friend is will know that employers already need to carry out absolutely right that an immigration Bill will be arriving right-to-work checks on EU citizens, and that will not in the Commons shortly. If those people currently change. It is clear that employers will carry out right- filling places are EU citizens—I am guessing she was to-work checks on EU citizens as they already do, and referring to EU citizens—have been here for five years, they will not be expected to differentiate between a they can automatically get their settled status. If they resident EU citizen and those arriving after March have not been here for five years, they can get temporary 2019. However,in addition, I understand that employers status, which will become full status when they have have been given toolkits to enable them to carry out been here for five years. their duties in the right way. Baroness McIntosh of Pickering: My Lords— Baroness Ludford (LD): My Lords, can the Minister clarify that? The Prime Minister promised EU citizens Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab): My Lords, can the that they could stay come what may—that is, in the Minister confirm reports that victims of modern slavery event of a no deal—and that is repeated in the reply and women who have been trafficked who are EU today. First, how can we have confidence in a Prime citizens will be required to pay a fee to the Home Ministerial assurance which is then contradicted by a Office before they are allowed to stay? Can she explain junior Minister? Are the Government planning to the reasons behind that, given how difficult it can be to introduce legislation in the event of no deal that could enable victims of modern slavery to come forward to impose work restrictions on EU nationals and sanctions be rescued? on employers in relation to those restrictions? I do not think that that any current legislative requirement Baroness Williams of Trafford: The noble Lord would cover that situation. The Minister said that EU raises a very valid point about victims of modern nationals are subject to employer checks at the moment. slavery, who will be supported and helped when they Can she clarify what those checks are, because I think come here no matter what country they are from. that EU nationals are in a different position to non-EU Depending on their situation, they will be helped nationals, who are subject to immigration control? either to move on within this country or to move back Lastly, will there be other hostile environment checks to the country of their origin. on rights to healthcare, benefits and so on? Baroness Williams of Trafford: The noble Baroness Earl Attlee (Con): My Lords, is it not the case that will know, because my right honourable friend the post-Brexit, we will be able to allow anyone whom we Home Secretary has already said it, that there will not want to have in the UK to live and work here? Is it not be a hostile environment. There will continue to be a also the case that we will not need to put visa controls compliant environment now and when we leave the on EU citizens if we do not want to and we want to European Union. On the Prime Minister’s statement have them here? that EU citizens can stay, I do not think that she has been contradicted by a junior Minister. I add that my Baroness Williams of Trafford: My noble friend is right honourable friend Caroline Nokes—if that is right and the Prime Minister has made it absolutely who the noble Baroness was referring to—is not a clear. That is why we are making those arrangements junior minister; she is in fact a member of the Cabinet. for EU citizens to have their settled status here, either Is that who the noble Baroness was referring to? pre-settled if they have been here less than five years or settled if they have been here for five years or more. Baroness Ludford: Indeed I was, but it is even more We want them to stay here and continue to work here. serious if a member of the Cabinet has contradicted The Prime Minister has made that crystal clear; it the Prime Minister. would be good if the EU could also do that. 1571 Brexit: Arrangements for EU Citizens [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Universal Credit 1572

Lord Empey (UUP): Can the Minister clarify the package of support to ensure universal credit is a fair reports last week about people who achieve settled system, supporting thousands who cannot work, as status but subsequently leave the United Kingdom for well as thousands who can. I would also like to thank a prolonged period of years? Would their settled status my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and allow them to come back into the United Kingdom the Chancellor for their support to deliver these measures. after, say, five years and achieve the rights they had Make no mistake: this is a department that listens prior to their departure? and a department that will continue to listen, adapt, change and deliver. We will put an extra £1.7 billion a Baroness Williams of Trafford: The noble Lord is year into work allowances, increasing the amount that absolutely right to point out that some people might hard-working families can earn by £1,000 before universal come here and then leave and then come back again. credit is tapered away—providing extra support for Five years’ continuous residence in this country will 2.4 million working families. Of course, the Opposition entitle people to settled status, but they can apply for do not like helping 2.4 million families, which is why pre-settled status if they have been here for less than they are laughing, because we help and support people five years. On the point about getting settled status, into work. That is why it was welcomed not only in leaving and then coming back again, I will have to get this House but among charities like the Child Poverty back to him because I do not know the answer. Action Group, which said: ‘The work allowance increase is unequivocally good news for Baroness Hamwee (LD): My Lords, the original families receiving universal credit’; Answer refers to applications that will be needed, and those will not be entirely straightforward for everyone. and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which said that I appreciate that pilots are going on at the moment, this extra investment, but people such as those mentioned by the noble ‘will help make Universal Credit a tool for tackling poverty’. Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, might well not find it Wehave gone further,recognising the genuine concerns easy—indeed, find it a deterrence—facing the bureaucracy raised about the support we were offering people, and dealing with the authority that this involves. Can especially the most vulnerable, when they move to the Minister confirm that the Home Office will consider universal credit. So we have made a further £1 billion sympathetically a different way of dealing with people package of changes, providing two additional weeks in this group and the possibility of waiving the fee for of DWP legacy benefits for those who move on to them? universal credit—a one-off, non-repayable sum that will provide claimants with extra money during the Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, it is very period before they receive their first universal credit important to outline that anybody who is vulnerable payment. This is on top of the two additional weeks of in any way—including victims of modern slavery, housing benefit announced at Autumn Budget 2017, sex-trafficking or whatever it might be—will get the and put into place this year. We will also support the support that they need from the appropriate authorities self-employed moving to universal credit. We will open when they arrive here. I cannot stand at the Dispatch up a 12-month grace period before the minimum Box and say that fees will be waived because, as far as I income floor is applied, supporting 130,000 self-employed know, they will not be. However, I can say that people claimants, because we are the party of business—we who need our support will get it when they arrive here are the party of aspiration. in very vulnerable situations. We will support those in debt by reducing the normal maximum rate at which debts are deducted Universal Credit from universal credit awards, from 40% to 30% of Statement standard allowances. This will help over 600,000 families to manage their debts at any one point when rollout is complete, providing them with, on average, £295 extra 5.28 pm a year as their debts are repaid over a longer period. TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department This is targeted support to help work pay and support for Work and Pensions (Baroness Buscombe) (Con): My the vulnerable. Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall repeat a That is why today I lay regulations to deliver the Statement made in another place by my right honourable next phase of universal credit: managed migration, friend the Secretary of State. through which people will be moved on to universal “Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on credit. It is a move from a system that trapped people the changes announced to universal credit in the Budget on benefits and created cliff edges at 16, 24 and last week and on the managed migration regulations, 30 hours, with punitive effective tax rates of over 90% which we are laying in the House today.The Chancellor for some. Under Labour, between 1997 and 2010, announced a substantial package at the Budget to benefit spend went up by 65%. In 1997, households ensure that millions keep more of what they earn, and were paying £5,500 in taxes to fund the benefits system, vulnerable claimants are supported when they move to and by 2010 it had risen to £8,350. This party was universal credit. In total, this package will be worth an voted into office to manage the country’s finances extra £4.5 billion across the next five years. and get them under control, and to make sure that I want to say a special thank you to all the colleagues, the benefits bill was affordable and sustainable for the charities, third sector organisations, Jobcentre Plus future. So while the party opposite may hanker for the staff and claimants who fed back to me to build this dark old days—trapping people on benefits, excluding 1573 Universal Credit [LORDS] Universal Credit 1574

[BARONESS BUSCOMBE] raised it, they were scaremongering. Even the NAO them from the opportunity of work and getting on in joined in last June, publishing a damning report about life, while at the same time delivering a big bill to the the impact of universal credit. But I am glad that taxpayer—we do not. Ministers are beginning to acknowledge that some Under this Government 3.4 million more people issues need tackling, and some steps have been taken are in work, the vast majority of which are full-time today which are welcome. and permanent roles. That means that we have created I welcome the increase in work allowances in universal more new jobs in the UK since 2010 than France, credit. Noble Lords will recall, I am sure, the time in Spain, Ireland, the Netherlands, Austria and Norway 2015 when my late and sorely missed friend Lady Hollis combined, alongside creating a welfare system that of Heigham led your Lordships in demanding that the supports those who need it. Government think again about those cuts in work Through universal credit, around 1 million disabled allowances. Ministers agreed to do it in tax credits, but households will receive around an extra £100 on average they did not for universal credit. But today they have per month through more generous support. The managed restored £1,000 of that cut, which feels like a good migration regulations will, in addition, protect 500,000 tribute to my noble friend. However, a bit of me feels people’s severe disability premium at the point of that it is still only half of what was taken off in that migration, and will deliver transitional protection for Budget. I am aware that that sounds a bit grudging. I those we move, to ensure that at the point of moving, do not like looking a gift horse in the mouth, but if those manage-migrated have their entitlements protected. someone gives me two horses then takes them away, then comes back a long time afterwards and gives me We will take a measured approach to delivering one horse, I will still hanker slightly after the two managed migration, taking our time to get it right and horses that I had in the first place. Your Lordships will working with claimants to co-design it. We will continue forgive me if I am being a bit disgruntled but two to take on board the advice of experts and charities horses are better than one. None the less, one horse is such as the Social Security Advisory Committee, whose better than none. I will stop the metaphor now. report on the regulations we have published, along with our response, today. We have accepted in full or Other things in the Statement are welcome. The part all but one of its recommendations, and the one decision to roll on other means-tested benefits for two we did not accept is because we want to make it more weeks for those moving across to universal credit is generous. good, but the Red Book seems to suggest that that will kick in only from July 2020. Can the Minister clarify I pay tribute to the hard work of the Social Security whether, if people move across from other benefits any Advisory Committee in scrutinising our regulations. time between now and 2020—for example, because We have changed a key part of the regulations, which they move into a universal credit area or they have a charities, MPs and the department have asked me change of circumstance—they will get no help at all? about, which relates to the minimum statutory notice Will they still be stuck, having to wait five weeks for all period for people moving from their legacy award to this money? What will happen there? I also welcome universal credit. We have extended this period from a the minor change to the self-employed rules, but I still minimum of one month to a minimum of three months, think that UC for low-income self-employed people is to allow claimants maximum time to prepare and an absolute mess that will unravel before very long. make their claim before their legacy award expires. Alongside this, we have unlimited flexibility to extend The real new announcements today are about managed claim periods for people who need it. We will also migration. This really matters because, as the IFS said back-date any claimant who has missed the deadline in its Budget commentary, this is, date but who has made a claim within a month of the “a huge change quite deliberately creating millions of winners deadline day passing. We will also test a variety of and millions of losers. Something like a third … will be at least communications methods, including advertising £1,000 a year worse off under UC than under the legacy system campaigns, face-to-face communication, letters, texts, while about a quarter will be at least £1,000 a year better off”. telephone calls and home visits. This will provide Ministers keep saying that no one will lose money as a support for claimants during managed migration. We result of moving on to UC. That is not because of will constantly review our approaches, engaging fully generosity; it is because people have transitional protection with charities, experts, claimants and all Members of which says they will not lose out at the point where this House. I commend this Statement to the House”. they move across. However, Ministers do not often tell us that this applies only to some people. There are two My Lords, that concludes the Statement. ways you can get on to universal credit: through natural migration, where you move to a new area and 5.36 pm have a change in circumstances—with this you get no Baroness Sherlock (Lab): My Lords, I thank the transitional protection; or, at some point between now Minister for repeating the Statement. and three or four years down the road, the Government This is a very large pile of sticking plaster. I am glad will move across anyone who is left, in a process that is that some of it is there—it is better than not having called managed migration. it—but in fact it highlights just what a problem lies As this process is called managed migration, everyone underneath that which the Government are addressing. assumed people would be managed. It now turns out For years, Ministers have told the House that all is they will not be managed at all. They will get a letter well with universal credit, and whenever concerns saying, “Your benefits are going to be cut off on this were raised on these or other Benches, they said that date”—I am glad it could be three months rather than we were scaremongering. Whenever charities or churches one—“and if you don’t make a fresh claim, you will 1575 Universal Credit [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Universal Credit 1576 get no money”. If you make a claim after that deadline very welcome, but we are still facing a major, dramatic but within a month, you will get transitional protection; piece of administrative change. It will severely affect if it is after a month plus a week you will get no vulnerable families who are on low legacy benefits at transitional protection even if you got your claim in. the moment. I do not think it is safe to do this without Let us bear in mind that this is a complicated somehow making an attempt to get an impact assessment process. Around 30% of people who start an online of what the long-term effects will be. This legislation claim give up before it is finished and put into payment. was originally put in place in the Welfare Reform This could be really serious, especially for vulnerable Act 2012. A lot of water has flowed under the bridge people. The process essentially shifts the burden of since then. We now have some very detailed and responsibility from the state on to the individual, to complicated regulations. Before we start the process, it deal with the consequences of the state moving almost would be good to know what the department expects 3 million people from their current benefits; of these, the outcome to be. If we cannot get that, we will to a over one-third are either too sick or disabled to work. large extent be flying in the dark. This is potentially very serious indeed. I welcome the three-month grace period for the The Social Security Advisory Committee had a minimum statutory notice period for the benefit, but number of concerns, most of which have been accepted, we still have a hard stop at the end of that. Three often in principle. Anyone who has read one of these months is better than one month, but can the Minister reports knows that there can be a big difference between explain the sentence in the Secretary of State’s Statement accepting something in principle and doing what the which deals with the one-month period becoming committee recommended. One classic example is that three months? It says that, the committee suggested that the DWP—rather than “we have unlimited flexibility to extend claim periods for people making everybody make a fresh claim—could carefully who need it”. analyse, segment by segment, and look for ways in Can she say what the circumstances are in which which certain groups could be carved out and moved someone could claim to need that? Unlimited flexibility across automatically. The DWP simply said no. It said could mean that people were not facing a hard stop for it needed clean data for everybody or that some people legacy benefits, so it would be very useful to understand such as tax credit recipients may not be eligible. That is better what that sentence actually means. not trying. Why will the Government not take up that I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, recommendation and try very hard to see whether and with the Social Security Advisory Committee, some people might not need to make an application? that it would be much safer to try to segment some of The Budget announced a further delay to the rollout, the clients we are approaching in managed migration which was scored, by my reading, as a net saving to the to identify vulnerable people. I do not mean vulnerable Government amounting to around £1.2 billion over only in terms of disability and so on, but also in terms five years. Can the Minister explain that? I might be of heavy indebtedness, which means that they are completely wrong, but it seems to me that one of the unlikely to be able to withstand a long—or indeed effects of delaying managed migration is that more any—gap in benefit provision during transition. We people will end up moving across to UC on their know that data is available, because organisations own—because they move house, have a baby, or their such as Policy in Practice are already stitching together kid leaves home, or whatever. That leaves fewer people local authority housing benefit data with Treasury, at the end. It also means that all those people will not HMRC and DWP data. There is enough material get transitional protection because they were not there there to anticipate the households that will have real at the end, which costs them money but saves the difficulty facing this. I understand the department is Government money.Does this change make anydifference saying that the systems do not talk to one another. to the number of people who will eventually be in During the managed migration period, which admittedly managed migration? The SSAC also raised some real does not start for some time yet, we will not, as I concerns about deliverability. I do not have time today understand it, have the advantage of an ability to to go through all my outstanding concerns about mash that data and identify vulnerable groups. It can universal credit. The Minister is shaking her head. be done by think tanks and research groups; I think it Perhaps I can refer her to the questions the committee should be done by the department. Proposals to was asking about operational deliverability; I certainly differentiate the impact on different groups of people had a different take from her on that. is, I believe, very important. I am deeply concerned that this is a sticking plaster Another thing, from a logistics point of view, is that while the underlying body is in serious trouble. I I understand we have to get these regulations done believe this could go badly wrong. There is a reason and dusted by the end of the calendar year. The why the Opposition finally ended up calling for the Minister is very good at offering briefing sessions rollout to stop. I am deeply worried that this is not before these regulations hit the Floor; they are affirmative going to work in the way the Government imagine. regulations and will need to come to the Floor of the For 3 million people, as well as all those on the legacy House. I understand the urgency of getting the legality system who will move across sooner, the benefits system put in place to cover the department for the trial is the only thing that stands between many of them period—the test and learn period—early next year. I and destitution. We cannot afford to get this wrong. plead with the Minister to give us enough time collectively in this House to understand the full significance of all Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD): My Lords, I these changes. Some are beneficial, but we are still agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, on her facing an enormous difficulty that could have a dramatic analysis of the changes that have been made. Some are impact on low-income families in future. 1577 Universal Credit [LORDS] Universal Credit 1578

Baroness Buscombe: I begin by welcoming the can make the process better. We have not yet developed comments of both noble Lords opposite, who have the system for managed migration, for the very reason welcomed at least in part what we have achieved, both that we want to spend time with everybody: lab sessions, through the Budget announcements and the laying of where we use researchers who have recruited claimants; the regulations today. pop-up testing, where researchers have visited job In response to the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, I centres, and all the support organisations, homeless say straightaway, up front, that unlike honourable shelters and parent and child organisations, to talk to Members in another place who did not seem to realise claimants and staff to get this right. that we would be debating these regulations,we have—and When we do start the managed migration process, want—to debate them. They are affirmative measures we are going to migrate a maximum of only 10,000 people and we will debate them before the end of the year. in the first year, which sounds slow, but we think that Otherwise, if we do not get these regulations through, is the right thing to do. We want to spend all that time the transitional protection support for people will be checking and making sure that we are right. I will be lost; we have to make that very clear. I have pretty very happy to come back to your Lordships’ House to much put a date in the diary for my first session. I was keep noble Lords informed of how that process is going to alert noble Lords after our upcoming recess going, because it is absolutely important that we get it but, in fact, I will make sure that is sent out to all Peers right. We are never going to get 100% of the cases tomorrow. I want to make sure that any Peer who right, but we will do our best. would like a conversation has one with myself and the The important thing is to explain that the two-week Minister of State for Employment—he wants to join support is an additional payment. There will be no me in engaging with all noble Lords.It is really important. gap. That will help people to adjust from being paid We want the opportunity to spell out the detail of two-weekly to four-weekly, but it does not represent these regulations. We are excited about it, not least any form of gap in transition in terms of payments. It because we have listened and learned. is an additional payment, in addition to the two-week I have listened to the noble Baroness opposite; I additional housing benefit—which, again, is a one-off know,for example, that she had a particular concern—as cash payment to support people through the process. did the noble Lord—when we met to talk very briefly I was asked what was meant by my right honourable in private two months ago about what we were trying friend in another place talking about what happens if to do with the one-month minimum term to migrate claimants cannot migrate. We are of the opinion that claimants to UC. We have now moved that to three we should keep the system entirely flexible, so that months. We decided on three months, rather than where a claimant has complex needs or is vulnerable, longer, because in talking to experts and stakeholders the work coach can have the option to suggest an we decided that any longer might in fact be a disincentive extension of the deadline of migration, arrange a and unhelpful to claimants. It felt as though it was too home visit or, to be entirely flexible, remove the claimant long a burden in front of them. from the managed migration process entirely. We have We want to do all we can to work with claimants, to be careful that we do not allow people to fall working with stakeholders—hence having this period through the cracks. Let us be clear that this one to now, after the full rollout of universal credit at the end three month minimum period is the minimum period of this year. We will be spending until July next year for people to manage migrate, but we will be flexible, going through a test and learn process. Our process particularly with those vulnerable claimants who are will be co-designed with stakeholders to ensure that having difficulty in migrating to the new system. we have listened and understood claimants’ experiences. We want a process that works well for everyone. We Baroness Sherlock: Before the Minister sits down, I are focusing on building safeguards for vulnerable think she may have inadvertently omitted to answer a claimants and ensuring that we have all the necessary couple of my questions. Could I invite her to check the information to enjoy a smooth transition, with record and write to me? uninterrupted support. I would say to the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, Baroness Buscombe: I would be extremely happy to that we have decided that we do not want to do write. anything in terms of migrating claimants without face-to-face or online support because, when we did 5.55 pm that, we actually got wrong what we thought would be a smooth, automatic transition from incapacity benefits Lord Trefgarne (Con): My Lords, can my noble to ESA—I am going back now to 2011. We got it friend confirm that these regulations will be presented wrong because we did not always have up-to-date to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, to information on people’s circumstances. We did what which the House normally delegates these matters? we call “pre-populate”, and we have decided as a department that that is too dangerous, in case we get it Baroness Buscombe: Absolutely. We will make sure wrong again. We are talking about a huge number of that these regulations will be part of the proper process. people and we want to get it right. Therefore, the test and learn process that we are Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab): My Lords, I going to go through before beginning the transition welcome the concessions in response to SSAC, and will be actually working with claimants who come I think we owe SSAC and all the organisations that forward to work with us, testing and trialling how we gave evidence to it a big debt. SSAC recommended 1579 Universal Credit [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Universal Credit 1580 that before the department starts the migration process £198 per month and those with housing costs £409. it should undertake what it called a “rigorous and With universal credit, raising the current work allowances transparent assessment” including, will mean direct additional funding to working families “how effectively Universal Credit … is currently operating”. with children, and working disabled people, by allowing Given the Public Accounts Committee’s observation them to keep more of their earnings before the taper of, rate is applied. “a culture of denial … in the face of any adverse evidence”, how can we be confident that the DWP’s acceptance in Baroness Donaghy (Lab): My Lords, the principle of this recommendation will mean that, before Minister will not be surprised if I focus on the self- managed migration, it really will tackle the design employed. The Social Security Advisory Committee flaws that all the organisations on the ground are has acknowledged that the main concern about the saying are preventing UC operating effectively? Following self-employed was not the grace period, though it on from my noble friend, why will those who do not acknowledged that a small extension is welcome, but claim within one month of the new target date not get the principle of the minimum income floor itself. transitional protection, when Ministers constantly say Organisation after organisation submitted evidence to that everyone will get transitional protection? the committee to say that this would not work. The committee requested that, Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, let me make it clear “the Department should undertake a robust evaluation of the policy and its operation ... It is important to determine whether it that we are now in a very different place from when operates equitably,what effect it has on the self-employed themselves, that PAC report was drafted. We are injecting an and what effect it is having on start-ups generally”, additional £4.5 billion into the system to support the and that, migration on to universal credit. We are in a place where we are already spending £100 billion on benefits “evaluation should extend to the related tests of ‘gainful self- employment’ which underpin the way in which the Minimum for people of working age; we have to think about Income Floor operates”. sustainability and affordability. There is a fundamental flaw in the way that that has When it comes to testing the system, we will adjust been structured. Can the Minister give some assurance and amend our processes according to how claimants that there will be such a robust evaluation of the respond, which we will identify through ongoing user policy? research with claimants, where we look to establish why claimants did not interact with the service and what they found difficult. We will use that to improve Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, in all that we are the processes. At the end of the day, though, we doing with universal credit we constantly question and cannot leave the process entirely open-ended, where consider issues of substantive policy, because we want people for whatever reason do not choose to migrate. to make sure that the system works for the long term. The important thing is that that is why we are having The Government want to support people to be self- the whole preparation and learning process—to employed but it is right for them to be financially understand why there could be anyone who fails to go self-sufficient. Key to this is continuing to support through the process or there is more than one month people in, or considering, self-employment to progress after the closure of when they should have applied to to a level of sustained financial self-sufficiency. We go on to universal credit. recognise that it takes time for new businesses to grow and that even established businesses can experience We will be spending time and a lot of input into difficulties. We will therefore provide all gainfully self- advertising campaigns; communications by text, phone employed claimants with an equal chance and support and letter; and home visits. Those people will not be from specially trained work coaches to grow their falling through the cracks without an extraordinary earnings, and to prepare and adjust for the application amount of effort on the part of our 83,000 employees of the minimum income floor. We were going to move at the DWP, who are not a department in any denial the minimum income floor to six months after migration, whatsoever. They want this to work. They are excited but have decided to introduce a grace period of 12 months. about it and work hard for it; they will help us to succeed, to the best of our ability. Lord Shinkwin (Con): My Lords, my noble friend Lord Framlingham (Con): My Lords, can the Minister mentioned the severe disability premium and the serious confirm that, due to the investment in work allowances, implications of not getting these regulations through. an extra 2.4 million families will keep an extra £630 per Will she confirm that these regulations support the year of what they earn, by removing the taper rate most vulnerable claimants moving to universal credit from an extra £1,000 of earnings? and that, moreover, voting against them would deprive 500,000 claimants of that premium? Baroness Buscombe: My noble friend is absolutely right. The measures in relation to work allowance will Baroness Buscombe: My noble friend is entirely make an enormous difference to families. The measure right. I could not put it better myself. We have to make directs additional support in a package worth £1.7 billion sure that we get these regulations through. If we do across Britain, to some of the most vulnerable, low-paid not, that support for half a million vulnerable people working families. If a single claimant has responsibility will be lost. The regulations provide transitional support for a child or qualifying young person, or has limited for recipients of the severe disability premium while capability, they currently receive a work allowance of removing the complexity of dealing with different 1581 Universal Credit [LORDS] Universal Credit 1582

[BARONESS BUSCOMBE] people with mental health issues. I do not believe that rules for seven different disability additions. We want ever happened. What assurances do we have that it to make sure that we take special care of those people will be robust in this case? when migrating them on to UC. As the CEO of Citizens Advice, Gillian Guy, said, Baroness Buscombe: It is important to explain a “improved protection for people who receive the Severe Disability little more about the test and learn process, which is Premium is a welcome move that will mean better financial one of the reasons why we are taking longer than we security for many disabled people who move onto Universal might to introduce the first tranche of managed migration. Credit”. We are not doing this by ourselves. It is very much a We must have these regulations. co-design with a number of charities, the third sector and researchers to help us work out our monitoring. Baroness Primarolo (Lab): My Lords, I thank the We will closely monitor the quality of communications Minister for the information she has given about which we will issue, and whether they are understood the changes made in the Budget last week. However, by recipients, before we increase the pace of migration. she will know that the Government had already pre- We are also making sure to put out letters that are announced billions of pounds to be cut from the easier to understand, and constantly working out what budget that will facilitate universal credit by 2020. we can do. However,if we hear nothing from a claimant, Last week’s announcements have given some money we will offer home visits. That has to be an opportunity back, but not all of it. The Government’soriginal estimate for those who are genuinely afraid of change. That is was that universal credit would lift 350,000 children one reason why we on this side feel passionately. The out of poverty, but the Joseph Rowntree Foundation less scaremongering around this system, the better. I says that, as a result of these changes, an extra 1.2 million put some of the blame on the media, which has not children will grow up in poverty by 2020. What is the fully understood it. Minister’s latest estimate for raising families and children out of poverty as a result of universal credit? We are trying to lift people out of the system that trapped them in poverty—on legacy benefits with cliff Baroness Buscombe: I am proud to say that this edges, where they could not work more than 16 or country provides more benefits for families than any 24 hours a week without losing benefits. The brilliant other advanced nation. I do not recognise the estimates; thing about this simplification—merging six benefits it is not right to make estimates without any underlying into one—is that you do not lose your benefits. Your evidence. We have come a long way since the cuts some benefits may now increase by £1,000 before they begin years ago to which the noble Baroness referred. There to taper, and the taper rate has just been reduced from were cuts right across the board, in all departments. 40% to 30% of your standard allowance. I also remind For example, the cost of social security went up the party opposite that when it left government and by 65% under Labour and was becoming totally this party came into power—the noble Baroness may unsustainable. We could not continue with that rise. shake her head—this Government had to fund debt We have therefore had to adjust and make some very amounting to 10% of our GDP. That was the issue difficult choices. facing us. We are doing all we can, with the working tax allowance and increased support for childcare Lord McKenzie of Luton: Would the Minister care costs, to support children and families. An additional to reconsider what she has just said about the taper 80,000 working parents who are in receipt of transitional rates being reduced from 40% to 30%? protection and who access support for childcare costs provided by UC are expected to benefit from these Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, I am sorry, it should regulations. The support for childcare costs provided be the debt repayment rate. I am grateful to the noble by universal credit, worth up to £1,108 per month for Lord. I am so eager to get this right, and noble Lords two or more children, is more generous than the may understand that there are quite a lot of numbers system it replaces. However,the most important support and it is quite technical. I am quite emotional about that anyone in a family can give their children is being the fact that we are the party of social mobility and we in work; setting a course for that family out of poverty—a have introduced a system that we genuinely believe hand up, not a handout—and being role models for will be better for everyone. It is, however, a very hard the children. There are over 800,000 job vacancies at system to get right for everyone, because everyone is the moment. We want to do everything we can to different—we are dealing with different situations and support people into work, because that is the best way circumstances and we do not want people to fall to lift children out of poverty. through the cracks.

Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab): My Lords, a moment Baroness Andrews (Lab): I appreciate what the noble ago the Minister said that we had come a long way. I Baroness has just said, because it is an extraordinarily am not sure that is how millions of people who have complex system, and this is the biggest—and riskiest— endured this Government’s cuts would view matters, change in social security for decades. She has said that even though a portion is put back in today’s people’s lives are different. When she refers to working announcements. The Minister said that home visits conditions and benefits, surely she should remember would be available for help with a claim. On what what we have been saying about the need to take great basis would that be? Would they be available as of care—universal credit is great in principle but very right to anybody who seeks one? I recall that with difficult to get right. A redesign should not be beyond ESA there were meant to be automatic home visits for the Government’s confidence. 1583 Universal Credit [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1584

I will repeat one question that was raised by both thrown into a war. We have heard many contributions, my noble friend on our Front Bench and by the noble particularly about the Indian army, but armies from Lord, Lord Kirkwood. If the Government want, as across the Empire came to aid us—in France, the they must, to simplify whatever they can, surely they Middle East and Africa. The entire state convulsed should have a better answer than the one they have into doing something. Those four-and-a-half years given about why they do not segment certain categories probably changed the course of our history and our of people that cannot be treated universally. It would structure. That alone would be worth remembering, be relatively simple to do. Apparently the department even without the hideous loss of young men’s lives. An has said that it cannot be done. That is not a good egality of suffering was established in a way it had enough reason when the noble Baroness is struggling never been before. The sons of the aristocracy led the to explain what will happen. There is a risk of mistakes charges over the top and were mown down a split that will bear down on the very poorest with disastrous second before the people behind them. The nature of results. This is not scaremongering, and I resent it what we went through united the nation in a way that being described so: these are very serious challenges virtually nothing has done before or since. I hope that for the very poorest in our society. after four years of very good memorial services we will take a series of lessons with us and build on them. Baroness Buscombe: I agree with some of what the The first lesson is probably that it was not just noble Baroness said but not that I am struggling—I Tommy Atkins who fought. I remember that about am just saying as much as possible in the time allowed. four years ago I had an exchange with the noble Lord, There is a lot to say—a lot that is positive. I repeat, Lord Lexden—who is speaking after me—and I pointed however, that she is correct in saying that it is hard and out just how dated “Oh! What a Lovely War” was that we have to get it right. That is why we are going to when I tried to show it to my daughter. We now have a spend so much time on the design, which is not there better idea of how the whole nation came together, yet—we have not yet designed the managed migration and the concepts of what went on have changed over process. That is the point: we will have rolled out time and should be constantly examined. The role of universal credit itself in all the jobcentres—634 of women in society was undoubtedly changed by the them, I think—by the end of this year, but we will take contribution that they made to all aspects of World the actual managed migration process much more War 1. We must look at it as a whole, and the great slowly, because it will lift people already on benefits success of this remembrance is that we have drawn from legacy benefits on to universal credit. people’sattention to the war.The big public displays—the I wish that we could automatically transfer certain Tower of London, the public opening and closing categories of people seamlessly, but we did that in ceremonies, and many others—have been a great success. 2011 when we were moving people from incapacity Those of us who are interested have listened and benefit to ESA, and the problem was that we missed learned. some people’s change of circumstances and underpaid However,if we get over-congratulatory with ourselves them. We do not want to take that risk again—we we will miss a major opportunity. Over the weekend a would be facing another judicial review. We know, little survey I did about whether one or two things had however, that about 700,000 people are not receiving penetrated showed that, alarmingly, not everybody the legacy benefits—worth about £2.4 billion—that has picked up on this stuff. One of the most constant they are entitled to, and we want them to. That is one themes your Lordships will have picked up is the of the main reasons why we want face-to-face contact— contribution of the Indian army.However,an alarmingly work coaches and claimants working together to make high number of people did not realise what that sure that they get the right support. contribution was. Those of us who are here may think that is almost impossible—but it has happened. We have also vaguely known about the contribution of Armistice Day: Centenary Australia and New Zealand. Somebody said to me, Motion to Take Note (Continued) “But weren’t they only at Gallipoli?” We must try to get beyond the public perception that this is just 6.15 pm happening to us. Lord Addington (LD): My Lords, the return to the Although my noble friend’s very moving description main debate, after just over an hour,is rather a challenge. of her own family reached down there, the fact is that I remember something said to me by one of my old other people on those ships on which her ancestor schoolteachers, who many years ago was apparently died would have come from other nations and would set the task of setting questions about World War 1 for have been supporting us. Often they were nations tied a public examination. The process was going fairly to us by empire. A bond created by conquest is a very well until he decided that he would be clever and ask odd thing when you think about it for a second. How what did not change after World War 1. He came up do we build on this? That is what I hope we will take with the answer that there was nothing that did not away. We cannot continually be in a state of celebration change. So trying to understand how important the of the past or one particular bit of the past. war was is one of the most important things we can do The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, pointed to understand our own past. out that we changed the map of Europe only to It was the first total war, the first time as a modern change it again shortly afterwards after an even worse state we had anything like universal conscription, and conflagration. This time it was not just the young men the first time that the full weight of an empire was who died—everybody was affected. In half-dealing 1585 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1586

[LORD ADDINGTON] woman, dressed in deep mourning, sobbing her heart with nationalism or concepts of empire and self, we out. He said to her, “You are in trouble—is there released forces that nobody could have foreseen at the anything that I can do for you?”. She replied, “Thank time. Eternal lessons must be reinforced and built on. you, but no. I am crying, but I am happy, for now I If we do not do that, we will have lost this opportunity know that all my three sons who have been killed in and the work that has been done. Every time we invest the war have not died in vain”. Sorrow and joy stood time, money and effort into reminding ourselves of side by side. what happened, we must use it as a building block for The wonderful day was wonderfully free of speeches. tomorrow. After reading the terms of the Armistice to a packed In a few years’ time, those of us who are still in this House of Commons, Lloyd George said: House or in its successor body, whatever happens, will “This is no time for words. Our hearts are too full of a have to think about commemorating World War II. gratitude to which no tongue can give adequate expression”. That will be an even bigger and more complex challenge, and I hope that at the end of this period we will reflect He moved the immediate Adjournment of the House, and prepare for something that will challenge us and, suggesting that, more importantly, our children even more than this “we proceed, as a House of Commons, to St. Margaret’s, to give has done. humble and reverent thanks for the deliverance of the world from its great peril”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/11/1918; col. 2463.] 6.21 pm Lord Curzon moved a similar Motion in this House, of which he was the Leader. Lord Lexden (Con): My Lords, I will reflect a little on some of the events of Armistice Day itself, a Thereafter politics resumed. The War Cabinet met century ago, and I begin, as is right and proper, with at No. 10 to discuss the general election campaign, the monarch. Throughout his reign, King George V which was to begin the following day.Should a vengeful dutifully wrote up his diary at the end of each day. He note be struck? Churchill argued that leniency should expressed himself in terse, straightforward language, be shown to the Kaiser. Sir Henry Wilson agreed, which reflected his character. Late in the evening of noting in his diary: 11 November 1918 he wrote that: “My opinion is that there should be a public exposé of all his works and actions and then leave him to posterity”. “Today has indeed been a wonderful day, the greatest in the history of the Country”. During the election campaign, the political leaders He had witnessed remarkable public rejoicing. Time concentrated on setting out their plans for post-war and again, he and Queen Mary had been brought out reconstruction and social reform to build a better on the balcony of Buckingham Palace at the insistence world for those who had suffered so much. The of immense crowds that stretched as far as the eye subsequent, incomplete implementation of these plans could see. It seems that the King contributed more to does not, in my view, detract from the sincerity with the events of that wonderful day than has been generally which Lloyd George and his colleagues proposed them, recognised. gaining a massive majority on 14 December 1918, one The British representative at the Armistice negotiations month after the Armistice when, for the first time, the in Compiègne, Admiral Sir Rosslyn Wemyss, the supreme whole nation voted on the same day. allied naval commander, entrusted to his family an Towards the end of his six volumes of war memoirs, account of what had passed during the discussions published in 1936, Lloyd George placed a particularly that led up to the signing of the Armistice at 5 am, and fine chapter entitled, An Imperial War. In it, this its implementation at 11 am. According to Wemyss, remarkable Welsh radical praised the indispensable the Prime Minister, David Lloyd George, who had contributions made by those who came to our aid contributed so much to victory, instructed him to from all parts of the British Empire and Commonwealth. arrange for the Armistice to come into force at 2.30 pm He noted how the arrival of Indian troops had averted when the House of Commons was due to meet so that disaster on the Western Front in 1914-15. he could reveal it to striking effect. Wemyss telephoned “Had they stayed at home”, the King, suggesting that the 11th hour would be a far better time. George V agreed and the plan was changed, he wrote, much to Lloyd George’s displeasure. “the issue of the War would have been different, and the history Lloyd George deserved, and received, great prominence of the world would have taken a different course”. on that wonderful day. In the two years since he had Nothing has been more important during these become Prime Minister, the political conduct of the four years of commemoration than to secure a fuller war had been infused with a dynamism unknown recognition of the indispensable service rendered by under his predecessor, Herbert Asquith, great man men and women from Asian, African and American though he was in his way. countries. I was glad to be able to introduce a debate The wonderful day was naturally tinged with deep on that hugely important aspect of the war a few sorrow. Long queues formed outside cathedrals and months ago. I am glad that it has loomed large in churches, for people felt a pressing need to reflect on today’s debate. the enormous sacrifices that had been made over four Will those who come after us remember for ever the long years, as well as to give thanks for victory. Late in terrible war which we have commemorated so thoughtfully the evening, Field Marshal Sir Henry Wilson, Chief of and respectfully over the last four years? The greatest the Imperial General Staff, walked home from Downing Englishman of the last century had no doubts. There Street. In his diary, he recorded encountering an elderly were such powerful visible reminders, thanks to the 1587 Armistice Day: Centenary [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1588 wonderful work of the Commonwealth War Graves The Second World War was even more awful, because Commission. Speaking in 1920, two years after the of the deaths of so many civilians, the history of Armistice, Churchill said, National Socialism and the terrible incidents. The war “there is no reason at all why, in periods as remote from our own in Russia, which is often forgotten, was much more as we ourselves are from the Tudors, the graveyards in France of savage and brutal than the war on the Western Front— this Great War shall not remain an abiding and supreme memorial”, fortunately for us. These lessons need to be drawn and and, yet after the First World War, as my noble and gallant “will still preserve the memory of a common purpose pursued by friend Lord Stirrup said, one crucial mistake was that a great nation”.—[Official Report, Commons 4/5/1920; cols.1970-71.] Germany was excluded from the peace conference at Versailles, being not even a participant in the efforts to have peace. How could you do that to a country? It of 6.28 pm course resented what happened and then came the Lord Dykes (CB): My Lords, I thank the noble Second World War. Lord, Lord Ashton, for his inspiring speech opening If it is seen as the European civil war, we can draw this debate and his detailed description of the the appropriate lessons about the future for this country memorialising that we are doing: the remembrances as well. I am still feeling very sad indeed, as I repeat on and the big service at the weekend, and all the minute many occasions, that this country has lost its way. The but important details of this national act of remembrance, appalling, tragic idea of leaving the European Union which is so important psychologically, spiritually and is such a mistake for this great country. The other EU in practical ways as well. We thank him for the details member states feel that very deeply, and would be that he has given and look forward to hearing more in delighted and thrilled if this country had the courage due course when that is relevant and applicable. to look again and change its mind. There is a huge I also feel a sense of gratitude that the intervention change in public opinion as recent polls have shown. of the Indian soldiers has been mentioned quite a few Younger participants in elections and vote-receiving times in this debate. It has been too often forgotten, activities of one kind or another are now much more but it made an enormous difference in that, the first of minded to vote for continuing our membership of the the European civil wars. The First World War was the European Union. beginning of the European civil war, with, 22 years I know this is difficult for some Tory colleagues to later, the second version—the two tragedies linked by accept, and I understand the awkward position they just two decades—continuing the mistakes that had are in—they wish to support their own party and been made the first time. We were lucky to emerge Government—but this is the reality now. If we can victorious from the First World War. We are grateful seize those lessons properly, and draw the appropriate to almighty God for that, and grateful for all the conclusions, we can save this country from perdition. efforts made by many people. Most of the speeches today have been detailed descriptions of the tragedy of the First World War and the terrible losses of military 6.34 pm life—in that war more than civilian life. All those Lord Balfe (Con): My Lords, I add my thanks to my incredibly meticulous details are important because noble friend Lord Ashton for his introduction to this they are part of the psychological act of remembrance most important debate. I declare an interest as someone that we all need so that we do not forget these things. who has lectured in European history—and by that I I declare a geographical and personal interest because, mean the history of Europe, not the history of Britain since 2001, I have lived in the Picardy/Normandy area as part of it. Many of us in this House are of an age of France, where so much of the First World War was where what happened in the First World War is much fought. It is a searing subject for the French in that closer to our family history than it is for our children. whole area, right up to Calais. Simon Heffer, in a My family was half from Britain and half from Ireland; recent article for The New European, quite rightly said they had very different experiences of the First World that our losses were terrible, but that the French losses War. My father, who was living in Dublin at the time, were even more so, and that needs to be remembered has memories of the first military stirrings against the as well. It is no wonder that in 1940, at the beginning British. None of our Irish family volunteered to fight of the Second World War, Pétain was moving for an in the First World War. They stayed in Ireland, and I armistice,which was incredibly popular because everybody do not think the Irish people who went to war in 1914, in France remembered the bloodletting and the huge when they were quite popular, were quite as popular loss of young male lives in that terrible episode. when it got to 1918. As a youngish boy, my father I go back to the mistakes made afterwards, referred remembered stones being thrown at British soldiers to by my noble and gallant friend Lord Stirrup, the returning from the First World War. noble Lord, Lord Addington, and others. I thank My English family had a very different experience. them for drawing the lessons of the past into the My grandmother, who lived in Lincoln, was engaged future; their speeches were notable for that. Going to a young second lieutenant who was killed, and—as through the details and remembering them is vital, but often happened in those days—she went on to marry drawing conclusions for the modern lessons we should his younger brother. He suffered from having been learn are even more important for the whole of Europe. gassed, and from post-traumatic stress disorder. He Living in that area, I now see a new era where the never recovered from the First World War, and died in latest town-twinnings are usually with German rather his 50s. The difference in those experiences did impinge than English towns. The English ones came first, and on the whole family, because the contribution of the now it is the German ones. Irish to the First World War has also largely been 1589 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1590

[LORD BALFE] be acceptable. I put it to noble Lords that you could forgotten. But there was a considerable contribution— not have a repeat of the Second World War, either. We from the south, from the Catholic areas—and it needs are now in an age when war is conducted by drones, to be remembered because the First World War was a launched from my noble friend Lord Cormack’s home war we helped to win. Britain did not win the First county of Lincolnshire and dropping bombs in Iraq. World War. We have heard about the soldiers from the We have a system where, frankly, a cyberwar would Commonwealth; the Americans of course joined in; probably be much more effective in ending a country’s and there was a lot of assistance from outside. We independence than a military war. often forget that two Allied soldiers died for every So we have to look to the future, and I say in closing German who died. The Germans had a pretty efficient that the future must be based on international fighting machine during the First World War—as co-operation. We have to work together. I share the indeed they did in the second. views of the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, and many I see the Armistice not as ending the First World others, on the to my mind disastrous decision to leave War but as calling a ceasefire in what was effectively a the European Union. The only way we can go forward 30-year war. In the second war, none of our family is by sitting down and talking to each other, and died—though one or two were injured. What caused making sure that at the top of our minds is our recent it? It was caused by hatreds. Read the recent biography history and the fact that we must never let it be of Charles de Gaulle. Around 1908, during his stay in repeated—and the way to achieve that relies on a lot of Germany, he wrote home to his parents, his mother in understanding, talk and work between us. Yes, it is particular, saying how he hated the Germans, even frustrating. I spent 39 years in Brussels and I am a past though he was there learning the language. The build-up master at knowing how frustrating these talks can be, to the First World War was almost inevitable, and this but in the end it is the only way forward. is what worries me today. I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord 6.42 pm Dykes, that if you keep on emphasising differences between people, you stir up trouble and hatreds. We Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, amen to that. I want to have to work together—we are a small continent—and say at the outset of my remarks how grateful I was, de Gaulle grew up wishing to avenge 1870, and with a how encouraged and impressed, by the speech of the generation intent on avenging 1870, right through to noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup. He brought 1914, we are not going to progress as a peaceful challenge and vision and reminded us that our real continent if we keep on emphasising our differences. If tribute to the fallen will be what we make of the future. you look at the other side of the Rhine, you see that Our determination must be to move forward positively the young Adenauer felt very much the same. Adenauer and practically in building an international community. and de Galle came out of the First World War ready I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, who to formulate the peace of the 1950s. It is a great shame very strongly reminded us of the contribution in the that our leaders at that time did not join in—and I First World War of the Indians. It is a shameful story: have to say that Clement Attlee was as bad as Winston we expected them to come here and then they were Churchill in terms of actually wanting to get involved treated, to be honest, as fourth-rate participants. There in Europe. is a tremendous wrong to be put right still, and if we Another point worth remembering is that Armistice fail to do it in this celebration of ours, it will be very Day is not remembered in the same way all over amiss. It was not just the Indians—people from Africa Europe. In fact, 11 November is Polish independence and from the Commonwealth came and made a huge day: it is a holiday there. The Finns, the Estonians, the contribution. I also think we ought to remember the Latvians and the Lithuanians all saw their country young people and their families of the United States, born out of that war. Some of us who are in the who played such a vital part in the last part of the war. relevant all-party group will have been going to embassies My noble friend Lord Clark is also someone to to celebrate 100 years of these different countries, and whom I am grateful. If I were to look for some way in their birth. So there is quite a different attitude in which we have progressed in our understanding and some countries. The Czech Republic—Czechoslovakia our civilised behaviour as a nation, it is in the recognition as it then was—was born out of the first war, and of conscientious objection. The way conscientious modern Turkey would probably not have arisen had objectors were treated in the First World War is a Kemal Atatürk been on the side of a victorious Ottoman terrible story. empire; but he was not. In my study at home, I keep on the wall a citation to The conclusion I draw from all this is that we need a my maternal uncle John, a captain in the Scottish certain amount of humility and we need to learn how Rifles who was badly wounded and awarded a Military to build a lasting peace. We need to work out how we Cross for his part in that episode. He had to be in Europe are going to live together. We have to start, invalided back to the UK, where he was patched up, somehow or other, talking to the Russians. It is no after a sort—most people said he was not fully patched good the Daily Mail et cetera banging on about how up—and sent back to the front, where he was killed on horrible they are: yes, they are horrible, but we will not the third day of the German spring offensive in 1918. I get anywhere unless we talk to them, and unless we sit should just mention that his younger brother was them down and get some sense out of them. killed on the North-West Frontier in the early 1930s, The second thing we have to realise is that war is and he too was a captain, but a captain in the Indian changing. You could not possibly have a repeat of the Army. Why do I keep that citation on my wall? Because First World War today, with its slaughter: it would not it is a constant reminder to me, as I go about my own 1591 Armistice Day: Centenary [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1592 activities, that my uncle was killed at 22. I think again horrendous conflict and who gave their lives in the and again about what a young man with the character cause of freedom. It is even more important to me to and pluck that he obviously had might have made of be able to speak in this Chamber today, because my his life. I ask myself: have I begun to equal what he grandfather is named in the Royal Gallery war memorial. might have contributed? I am a Staffordshire man, and I am very proud to The point is that it was not just him, or indeed his have been born and bred in that county, as countless younger brother later; hundreds of thousands of people of my forebears have been. When I put my name down went through this kind of experience. When we think to speak in this debate, I read a note from the Royal of the slaughter,in appalling circumstances sometimes— British Legion which suggested that it would be people suffocating in mud—what are we doing to appropriate if speakers could perhaps recall the parts build a better future? The noble and gallant Lord, played by their county in the Great War. I immediately Lord Stirrup, was absolutely right: the question we thought that to be an excellent idea. So much has been should have in our minds all the time is how we said, and needed to be said, over the past four years of prevent this happening again. My father served on the remembrances, that perhaps this might be a slightly north-west front in Italy, together with the Italians, in different but exceptionally important angle to embark the First World War. He was so affected by what he on. Therefore, in this speech—which, your Lordships saw that he dedicated his life—and I really mean that will be delighted to hear, is very short—I would like to word—to working for peace and international under- recall my county’s role. standing. He was convinced that internationalism was Next Sunday, I shall have the immeasurable honour essential to the future of civilisation. I am sure he of representing the Lord Lieutenant, and therefore would be cheering every word that the noble Lord, Her Majesty, at the service of remembrance at Lichfield Lord Balfe, uttered. He also believed, of course, that Cathedral. Services will be held throughout our county, the European Union was indispensable, because it was from the Moorlands and Leek in the north, to Stoke- people coming together with practical arrangements on-Trent, to Burton-on-Trent in the east, our county to build a community in which war would become town of Stafford and Enville in the south. impossible. The words I heard again and again in my upbringing were “collective security”. Staffordshire is the home of the National Memorial Arboretum at Alrewas, near Lichfield, which If I have anxiety at the moment, it is that we are commemorates not only those who have fallen in so losing that searing experience that our fathers brought many military conflicts but those who sacrificed their back from the First World War, and indeed that our lives in other tragic circumstances. The arboretum more close relatives brought back from the Second also serves as a memorial to the animals which suffered World War, of what war really means, of what it and gave their lives while supporting the military in involves in suffering for civilians. We perhaps have not conflict. I believe that in the course of the First World talked enough about civilians in this debate. It now War over 1 million horses were killed. sometimes seems that war is about civilians, and we find convenient language for dealing with an emotionally In the county of Stafford, we remember the Prince distressing situation: we talk about collateral damage. of Wales’s regiment, the North Staffordshire Regiment, But think what that means to the families and the known to us as the Black Knots. Raised in 1758 as people who are that collateral damage. We move into a the 64th Regiment of Foot, and disbanded in 1959, phase where war is done by remote control; pushing when it amalgamated with the South Staffordshire buttons, sending highly targeted drones, and the rest. regiment, it formed the Staffordshire Regiment. Known Are we slithering towards a situation in which war is as the Staffords in those days, today it forms part of just another management option in our handling of the Mercian Regiment, which has had a distinguished international relations? That would be a disaster, and fighting career. would certainly be the ultimate betrayal of those who Many of those who volunteered from my family’s fell in the First World War. former estates at Alton Towers and Ingestre, joined I would like to end with a quotation, because it has the North Staffords. Some of their names—far too a profound effect on me. I love the hymns of Fred many of them—are on the war memorials in Alton Kaan, a United Reformed Church minister of Dutch and the surrounding villages near where I live. I remember origin, who suffered under German occupation. I will with particular fondness George Greatholder,my father’s quote one of his verses: head forester, who fought in the Battle of the Somme “God! As with silent hearts we bring to mind at age 16, and at Ypres—he called it “Wipers”—and how hate and war diminish humankind, won a Military Medal and bar. George was wounded, we pause, and seek in worship to increase returned to the front and eventually came home to our knowledge of the things that make for peace. Staffordshire. It was his task to look after me during Hallow our will as humbly we recall the lives of those who gave and give their all”. the school holidays when I was a teenager, and I adored him and his wealth of stories. His stories were mainly about the countryside and wildlife, and I was 6.52 pm enthralled by them. But there were never stories about The Earl of Shrewsbury (Con): My Lords, as always, his wartime experiences: those were far too horrible it is a very great privilege to speak in your Lordships’ for him to recount. House, but it is especially so on this occasion when we The North Staffords saw action on the Western commemorate the 100th anniversary of the end of the Front at Gallipoli, in the Middle East and in India. Great War and pay our tributes to those from all The South Staffords fought at Mons, Ypres, Loos, across the world, and from all sides, who fought in that Delville Wood, Arras, Passchendaele—the list goes on 1593 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1594

[THE EARL OF SHREWSBURY] I have just found out that the Indians who were at and on. The sons and daughters of Staffordshire gave Gallipoli were not properly mentioned until the eve of their all, and achieved the highest battle honours. the centenary. Everybody knew they were there but They came from communities throughout the county: they were not mentioned in the records and the things from the rural areas and agriculture; from the Moorlands; that were written about Gallipoli. The story that I am from the Potteries; from the breweries at Burton-on-Trent; trying to put before your Lordships is that Indians from the Black Country and its industrial heartlands; were there, but not in everybody’s thinking. Some of and from the Staffordshire mining communities of the later records did not focus properly on the Indians, Hednesford, Cannock and Rugeley, to name but a few. because the people creating the records had the feeling The miners were especially significant, because they that somehow they were inferior to the white British were the sappers who dug the trenches and mined Army. Obviously this went on because it was a big part under the lines,very often working in appalling conditions. of the British Empire not to treat people from across it as equals—but when they were prepared to give up When I was a teenager, my father took me to the their lives they deserve to be treated as equals. military cemeteries in France on a regular basis. I continued that tradition with my children, and my A noble Lord asked, “Why did they want to join friends and I still do it to this day. Last time, it was up?”. They did so because they were encouraged by Ypres and the Menin Gate. We had tears running the Indian leadership. The noble Lord, Lord Gadhia, down our faces at the Menin Gate, at 8 pm on a said that Gandhiji said they should join the Army and Sunday. My father taught me to honour and respect so on, and they did. But why did Gandhi and the the memories of the fallen, especially those from Indian leadership say, “Join the Army”? The idea was Staffordshire, and to remember that today we enjoy that if India helped Britain win the war, it might get the freedoms and privileges which men and women— dominion status, which was the Indians’biggest wish—or including those from Staffordshire, many of whom if not that, perhaps some more privileges to run India were connected to my family—gave their lives for. This as they wanted to. As your Lordships know, that never is why we should hold all of them in the highest came about, but the Indians were the biggest volunteer honour and esteem, and never allow their sacrifices to army at that time. be forgotten. We have had a lot of commemorative World War I events during this time. We have said and done things 6.57 pm and had those events and so on, but how are we actually to inform the young? If you stop people on Baroness Flather (CB): My Lords, there was an the street now and ask them, “Do you know who was interesting piece in the newspapers recently about the involved in World War I, apart from us?”, they might first bullet that was fired. The first bullet is supposed mention the Dominions, because they were kith and to have been fired at a German, by an African from kin, but they never mention Indians. I do not think Côte d’Ivoire. How did they find that out? This is what many people know that the Indians were there during I want to know. How do they know it was the first World War I. To me, that is crucial. It is the one thing bullet? If it was in Africa, and was fired by some poor we have to put right, because it is important not only man from Côte d’Ivoire, I do not even know whether for the young of this country to know that but for the he managed to kill the German. Anyway, it is amazing Indians who have come to live here. Young Indians how they find these stories. I will not be talking about should have something to be proud of, but they do not that, of course, but I thought it might amuse your know about this. How do we inform the young on a Lordships. large scale? We put it in the context of history. If we I will start with the first group of Indians who came are teaching anything about World War I, it should in the ships. As noble Lords will know, the BEF failed mention the people who are not mentioned elsewhere. in Belgium and Britain did not seem to have a proper That is the most important lesson for this period. We standing army, so the Indians started to arrive in should make sure that the young have a chance to find ships. Some 150,000 of them came at that stage. It is out about that, especially the young Indians—I mean sad that they did not have proper clothing. We were those from a united India. Although it is four countries going into winter—we were not in winter yet, we were now, that is all right too: all those people should be in autumn, but we were going into winter—and they able to know what their fathers and grandfathers did, did not have appropriate clothing. This seems to me to and how they came to make up the largest volunteer be a bad oversight, because these people had come army. from villages in India and were used to heat—not just I have been involved in the Memorial Gates, which warmth but heat. That was the first group of Indians a couple of your Lordships have talked about. They who came. are a memorial on Constitution Hill to Indians, Africans and West Indians. It took me about seven or eight Your Lordships probably also know that there were years to get them up and I had a lot of problems. 9,000 combatants and 6,000 non-combatants. It is Sadly, I had no support at all from the Labour very interesting that not much has been written about Government of the time. The support I got was a great the non-combatants, who were also in Europe in all help, but it would have been even better if the Government the theatres of war, because they were needed in those had wanted to see the memorial in place. The support places. Nothing has really been written about their came from the Royal Family: Prince Charles became work during the war. Non-combatants are important our patron and the Queen came twice. I am very as well, as we know, and the Indians were in practically grateful because, without that, we would not have every theatre of the First World War. been able to raise the money. If you do not have 1595 Armistice Day: Centenary [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1596 somebody such as Prince Charles as patron, nobody remarkable way by allowing them to contribute stories, gives you money—so it was difficult. Field Marshal building a digital memorial to the Great War. I hope Lord Inge raised a lot of money—I do not know that it helps those whom the noble Lord, Lord Clark whether your Lordships remember him—as did I. of Windermere, talked about earlier as seeking a Between us we managed to raise enough to get the permanent memorial to their ancestors. memorial up. Throughout the centenary the IWM has also supported I will save the last few minutes for my father, who the work of 14-18 NOW, which has played its own decided to join the Army and volunteered in the First energetic role in marking major national moments World War. I am so old that I am probably the only through the arts—not least through the memorable one from a minority community who can say, “My poppies tour, seen by over 4.3 million people. I pay a father served in the First World War”. No one else will heartfelt tribute to both organisations and to the be old enough. My mother used to say that he decided DCMS, which has so immaculately choreographed to run away to war because he failed his exams and did these last four years. not want his grandfather, who was quite a paterfamilias, Today, as the commemorative events in this House to know. I do not think that many people run away to draw to a close, I want to highlight a role played by a war; they run away from it, if possible. He served group which is so often overlooked but was absolutely mostly in Mesopotamia. Gandhiji had said that the vital to the waging of the conflict and to our ultimate Indian students should help the war effort but that victory. That is the animals who fought, were injured they should not kill, so my father was a stretcher and died in the war,as my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury bearer in an ambulance corps. Fortunately he came mentioned. Animals have been involved in warfare as back, because otherwise I would not be here—but he long as men could ride a horse into battle or train a would not talk about it. dog to attack, and they have served other purposes as Many noble Lords have said that their father or well—as mascots to raise morale, and to provide grandfather would not tell them anything about the companionship and comfort to those fighting. But the war. I think that my father had a terrible time. He was First World War presented the greatest challenge ever spoilt and brought up in a comfortable family, and he to face animals in the history of warfare, before or really did not like being where he was. The only thing since, and that is why I want to remember them today. he told us was that he lived on tins of bully beef. As a The animals most profoundly affected were the Hindu, he would not eat beef—he never did afterwards— horses that powered our cavalry. Remember that when but he lived on bully beef during the war. Mesopotamia the First World War broke out the entire British Army was a horrible place and it was a horrible time, but he had just 80 motor vehicles. All other transportation of survived. I am very proud of the fact that I can join men, guns, ammunition, equipment, medicine, supplies noble Lords whose father or grandfather was in the and fuel relied on horse power and, with the mobilisation first war—because I too had a father who volunteered and expansion of the army, horses were required in for that war. unprecedented numbers. The British Expeditionary Force proceeded to France with 40,000 horses and 7.07 pm mules, each one of which had to be hoisted aboard and into the holds of ships. Despite heroic efforts by Lord Black of Brentwood (Con): My Lords, it has the Army Veterinary Corps, for many the trauma of been a rare privilege during the last four years to take the journey was too much and many died during the part in so many important debates in this House as we crossing, in often terrible conditions. have commemorated the heroism and sacrifice of those who fell in the Great War. In particular, it was a Horses were then in action right from the opening privilege to lead one on the centenary of the Battle of shots of the war when, at Néry in France on 1 September Passchendaele and another commemorating the role 1914, every member of L Battery Royal Horse Artillery of musicians, artists and poets who fell in the fighting— was either killed or wounded until the bitter end. The those special lives whose loss, in the words of Sir Hubert last cavalry charge of the war to end all wars was Parry, could never be made good. the charge of the 7th Dragoon Guards to capture the Dender crossings in Belgium as the clocks were striking It has also been my good fortune during these years 11 am on 11 November. to have been associated with the exemplary work of the Imperial War Museums, whose foundation I sit on During those terrible years, horses did not just and I declare an interest accordingly. In 2014, IWM power the war, but provided vital companionship to London transformed its iconic atrium as part of a our troops. As the author JM Brereton wrote in The new, permanent First World War gallery, making use Horse in War: for the first time of the power of digital technology to “On campaign, riding and reading the horse for months on engage new generations. This gallery is the richest and end, sleeping in the open only a few yards behind the picket lines most comprehensive in the world, containing more at night, and suffering the same privations, the soldier came to than 1,300 objects, and in the first six months of regard his horse as almost an extension of his entire being”. opening it attracted an exceptional 1 million visitors—a During the war, more than a quarter of a million figure which underlines the power of commemoration. horses were lost on the Western Front alone. Only Many millions more have visited since and taken part 58,000 were killed by enemy fire; the rest succumbed in some of the key events organised by the IWM, to exposure, disease and poison gas, despite the heroic importantly including one on the vital role of women efforts of the men in 1915 who, when that hideous during the war. Its unique digital platform, “Lives of gas first appeared, improvised gas masks for their the First World War”, has engaged the public in a beloved animals. 1597 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1598

[LORD BLACK OF BRENTWOOD] Western Front, where they did a great deal to keep Both the Blue Cross and the RSPCA worked incredibly down the rodent population. Often cats simply provided hard for animal welfare in every theatre of war, raising some companionship for our soldiers. Amid the death money at home to care for them and then tending to and despair of the front line, kittens and puppies them at the front. These charities, which really came to helped to pierce the muddy gloom and were a welcome public attention for the first time during the conflict, reminder of home. Cats, too, were popular mascots provided 180 horse ambulances, tented field hospitals, for ships in the Royal Navy. Many perished with their a convalescent depot and 13 hospitals in France to crew when ships went down, including Lyddite, the care for them. Some 2.6 million horses and mules were mascot on HMS “Shark” sunk in Jutland, and Togo, admitted to their care in France alone, an astonishing who went down with HMS “Irresistible” at the achievement. Then, as now, a great debt is owed to the Dardanelles. Indeed, all animal life played its part in charities that care so much for our animals. this terrible war. Tragically,the Armistice did not always bring salvation Many of you will know or have visited the Animals for the horses that had served so valiantly. In many in War Memorial in Park Lane, which was opened in cases, they were destroyed rather than brought home. 2004. It records the sacrifice of the hundreds of thousands Perhaps worst of all was the fate that befell 20,000 war of animals of all kinds who fell alongside our troops. horses in Palestine. It was considered too expensive to At the conclusion of the inscription, we read movingly bring them back here, and they were sold to Egypt these words: “They had no choice”. where they were cruelly worked to death in quarries. As we commemorate the heroism and bravery of Of course, it was not just horses involved but other the gallant who fought and died so that we might be animals as well. In the desert campaign across the free, please let us remember those who stood by them, sands of the Middle East made famous by Lawrence who worked with them, who comforted them, but who of Arabia, camels were vital. During the heavy fighting had no voice or name, then or now. Let us give them on the advance to Jerusalem in the winter of 1917 that voice today, as we remember them too at the alone, the British lost over 3,000 camels. Armistice. Important too was the role of dogs in the war. They performed an extraordinary number of military roles. 7.17 pm As ambulance dogs, they sniffed out casualties on the battlefield when they were buried by debris. From Baroness Quin (Lab): My Lords, it is a pleasure to 1916 they were increasingly used as messenger dogs follow the noble Lord, who introduced an interesting and a special school to train them was formed at and thoughtful element to this debate that has not Shoeburyness in Essex. Some were sentry dogs, keeping been covered before. In a briefing from the Royal guard duty on the horror of the Western Front. Others British Legion, we are encouraged to give our own laid telephone wires and many served as mascots. special thanks to the First World War generation, Many of them, such as Pelorus Jack of the Royal whether through family memories or through tributes Navy ship HMS “New Zealand”, also made good to the heroism of people from our own part of the subjects for patriotic postcards, while others raised country. I would like to do both in my contribution. In thousands of pounds for war charities. Bob at Liverpool, honouring the dead, I would also like to honour those Prince at Crewe, and Cymro at Rhyl became well-known who survived but who, despite having served their names. country, had often to confront difficult circumstances— difficult economic circumstances, as well as, in many Dogs were in high demand. Initially they came cases, the emotional, psychological and physical effects from homes in Battersea and elsewhere, but in time the of that war. War Office asked the public to send their dogs as gifts. My own family memory arises directly from my In his excellent book on the subject, the historian Neil father, who was a veteran of the trenches near Ypres— Storey records how one woman wrote a moving letter “Wipers”, as he and his fellow soldiers called it. Like to accompany her dog when she sent it to war: so many, he spoke little of his experiences there. As a “I have given my husband and my sons, and now he too is child, I do not remember him ever talking about the required, I give you my dog”. First World War, although I do remember that he Our feathered friends, too, were brought into service. never ate baked beans, having had a surfeit of them in Canaries were used to detect poison gas but, most the trenches. He was awarded the Military Cross for importantly,carrier pigeons were vital during the conflict bravery under fire but, as someone who did not like in an age before any form of significant communication. fuss or ceremony, he preferred to receive his medal The Emergency Pigeon Service was established to through the post rather than attending a ceremony in ensure a supply of pigeons to minesweepers, which Buckingham Palace. Until my sister and I offered the were then able to send news about newly laid minefields medal for the exhibition of memorabilia in your Lordships’ to patrol boats. The same was true on the Western House, it had not been seen in public and had not been Front. During the Battle of Arras, two tanks with worn, as the ribbon had not been attached. pigeons on board saw large bodies of Germans massing My father won a scholarship to Cambridge in 1913, behind the hills. Within the hour, our artillery had which was something the family was very proud of, received word of this via the pigeons and foiled the but his academic career was brought to an end when German counterattack. he enlisted and joined the Cambridgeshire Regiment. Noble Lords would expect me to say a word or two There is an excellent book about the regiment written about our feline friends, of course. Cats also played by Brigadier-General Riddell, who commanded it. He their part, not least in the rat-infested dugouts of the writes movingly about the heroism and camaraderie 1599 Armistice Day: Centenary [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1600 he encountered; I know now that comradeship was from this period are now used by schools in the something that my father treasured. In the book, the north-east and elsewhere to learn about the dangerous author talks somewhat scathingly about some of the but essential work that women did. These women and stupider decisions that were taken, which needlessly others were brave and heroic and deserve to be forfeited gains that had been made or which jeopardised remembered. men’s lives. He writes of one of the bravest men he In conclusion, I agree with my noble friend ever knew, a lance-corporal by the name of Nightingale. Lord Griffiths of Burry Port, who today in the Huffington I have not been able to find out whether Nightingale Post urged us to ensure that our acts of remembrance survived or whether he has descendants, but I know also make us think about the challenges of today. A from the book that he helped to save my father’s life. It number of noble Lords have mentioned this. He is states that when my father and General Riddell had to right to remind us that the price of freedom is eternal run across a field of death, Nightingale turned himself vigilance. We must remember that as well as continuing into a veritable chimney by lighting cigarettes and so to honour the heroes and heroines of yesterday. forth to distract the Germans and give cover to the two men as they ran. Reading about Nightingale, I 7.24 pm was also struck by the class gulf between Tommies and officers. I was interested to hear what the noble Baroness Helic (Con): My Lords, we have heard Lord, Lord Bilimoria, said about members of the many fine speeches today, and I know there are many Indian Army not being able to get commissions. The more to come. I regret that the noble Lord, gulf between the commissioned and the non- Lord Ashdown, is not here and that we will miss his commissioned at home was also wide. Nightingale unique perspective. I wish him all the best in his battle. wanted a commission but never got one, yet if anyone If anyone can prevail, he can. deserved promotion to a senior level it was him. This exceptional centenary year is an opportunity As a result of the centenary of the war, many for us to express our gratitude to the entire World War people have looked into their family history. History I generation. They gave their lives to defend this has come alive to them as a result, and many fascinating country and to ensure that no hostile power could stories have been revealed. It has also made us remember obtain control of the opposite coast of the English contributions of individual men and women across Channel and use it as a launch pad for an invasion of the UK in our nations and regions. In this year when the British Isles. we are celebrating the 100th anniversary of some My country of birth was part of the Austro-Hungarian women getting the vote, I pay tribute to some of the Empire. My ancestors served it. I spent my formative amazing war heroines from my part of the world, the years in Sarajevo, the city where the first bullet of the north-east, whose memory deserves to be highlighted. First World War was fired when Archduke Ferdinand Their work should not be forgotten. and his wife were assassinated. As a child, I used to Kate Maxey was one of most highly decorated visit the Gavrilo Princip bridge and walk in the footsteps nurses. She was from Spennymoor in County Durham, of the assassin, blissfully unaware of the calamity that and was sister in charge of a casualty clearing station his actions unleashed upon our continent. in France. Even when injured in a bombing raid, she Whicheversideourgreat-grandfathersandgrandfathers directed nurses, orderlies and stretcher bearers, thinking were on, we were united at the Paris peace conference of herself last. At a time when there were only by the reality of what the Great War left behind. The 600 registered women doctors in the UK, Dr Ruth four great empires that exercised power and authority Nicholson wanted to help in France but was turned prior to 1914—Habsburg Austro-Hungary, Romanov down. Undeterred, she got involved with the Scottish Russia, Ottoman Turkey and Hohenzollern Germany— Women’s Hospitals for Foreign Services and, with had disappeared or simply expired. The total direct support from our Belgian and French allies, was able cost of the war was estimated at $180 billion. Most to establish the hospital in Royaumont in northern devastating of all was the human cost of the war. France. She saved many lives as a result. Sybil Grey, Ten million lives were lost, and 20 million people the great-granddaughter of Earl Grey of the Great sustained war-related injuries. By weakening so many Reform Act, trained as a nurse, ran services in her human frames, the war opened the door to the Spanish family’s home and then established and ran an Anglo- flu epidemic, which killed a further 20 million people Russian hospital in Petrograd and later a field hospital across the continent, reminding us that the harms of near the Russian front. She treated many people in war last for decades. Tragically, all the sacrifice and challenging circumstances, partly because of the high suffering was not enough. The war to end all wars did number of Russian casualties and partly because of not deliver. The carnage was repeated in just over the growing unrest that lead to the Russian revolution. 30 years, this time on an industrial scale, underpinned In this year when we are also remembering the by the ideologies of red and black totalitarian societies, work of suffragettes and suffragists, I shall mention the abhorrent concept of a racial state and mass other women from the north-east. Charlotte—Charlie— extermination camps stretching from Poland to Siberia. Marsh, a former hunger striker, was during the war As we pay tribute to those in whose blood that the motor mechanic and chauffeuse to Prime Minister history was written, and as memories of both world Lloyd George. This was ironic because she had been wars fade with time, I am deeply worried that we have punished for throwing tiles at the Prime Minister’s car become forgetful of our history and reckless with our before the war as a suffragette, yet she worked in this democracy. I fear that we now at times take for granted important capacity during the war. Ruth Dodds from the unbroken peace that most European countries Gateshead worked as a munitionette. Her vivid diaries have enjoyed for more than 70 years, that we have 1601 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1602

[BARONESS HELIC] My maternal grandfather, Joe, was born in Belfast allowed our moral radar to weaken, and that our to fierce loyalist stock. Aged 18, he joined Carson’s ability to recognise what is acceptable or not has UVF and trained with guns smuggled in from Germany. diminished. I have been shocked, as I am sure many of At the onset of war my grandad joined the 15th Battalion your Lordships have been, by some of the tone of the of the Royal Irish Rifles, a Protestant force that marched public debate in the handling our relationship with with marigolds in their caps to the tunes of King Billy. our European neighbours. Whatever our views, it is Joe fought on the front line and in the trenches, our duty to behave in a way that corresponds to the miraculously surviving for the span of the war. He was sacrifices made in the two world wars. This is not some in the Battle of the Somme where,as we know,50,000 were romantic idea of everyone having to get along, but a killed or wounded on the first day. At Thiepval, the matter of basic civility between nations and a reflection 36th (Ulster) Division lost 5,500 men in two days. of the critical importance of a stable, democratic and Whole areas of Ulster were plunged into grief. Joe peaceful continent, the very reason so many men and went on to fight on the Messines Ridge, at Cambrai women fought and died in the two world wars. and at St Quentin, where he was captured, and saw out As someone recently remarked, xenophobia has the war as a German prisoner. become almost acceptable,respectable and even admirable. I can never be sure what price my two grandfathers While some may feel better throwing around disparaging paid for their exposure to four years of the utmost comments and rude remarks, let us not forget that horror. My paternal grandfather, William, was bright each time they do, and each time we pretend not to but quick to pick a fight; he rose in the war to hear, rhetoric is a step closer to actions—unacceptable sergeant, but was discharged as a private. He would aggressive actions. Democracies are not immune to become an alcoholic, a mainly unemployed Bootle violence just because they are democracies. They have docker. The NSPCC would be called in to consider the to be protected and nurtured. Sometimes they have to welfare of my father and his siblings. be fought for. However much we pride ourselves on My maternal grandfather, Joe, could be cruel to his our values,our history and the strength of our institutions, daughters too, but he was mostly quiet and introspective, there is a short step between rhetoric and violent loss though he took me, his first grandchild, under his wing of life. Let us remember today the Member of Parliament and talked to me endlessly and chillingly about his war the late Jo Cox, who was killed for standing up for the and his grim experiences, taking solace only in his voiceless, and the 11 Jewish worshippers so recently racing pigeons and his pride in once having sold a Jack killed in cold blood in America only for being Jews. Russell terrier to Gracie Fields. There was one benevolent We must always be vigilant and protect what has been consequence of Joe’s war. By 1917, so many soldiers built in blood and on lives sacrificed. I feel this keenly from the Ulster Division had been killed that Catholics as I reflect that I, a great-granddaughter of the Austro- were finally drafted in to make up the numbers. Hungarian Empire, and you, the descendants of those Unexpectedly,the camaraderie of battle softened attitudes, who died to defend Great Britain, can today sit in the and a year later St Patrick’s Day was celebrated in the same Chamber. trenches and shamrocks widely distributed. When my Britain is an extraordinary and exceptional country. Protestant mother declared that she was to marry my It stood on the right side of history in World War I, Catholic father, my mum was ostracised by her fierce World War II and the Cold War. It is the country loyalist mother but Joe, the one-time member of the whose moral core was never corroded by Nazism or UVF, had lost his sectarian impulse on the fields of fascism. It is the country that has stood by those who Flanders, and peace was soon restored to the family. needed protection. It is therefore worrying when the I have visited the battlegrounds on which my rhetoric of populism, which has never suited British grandfathers fought. I have stood in empty, flat green core values, starts rearing its head. It is then that we fields with the birds singing, not a soul to be seen, the must remember those who died for higher ideals. I ground around still bearing the scars of trenches, and therefore hope that as we mark the centenary of I have listened to friends reading out loud some of the World War I we not only remember the generations eloquent and poetic first-person accounts of battles who died but think of future generations and reflect long fought, involving massive loss of life, in precisely on what we ourselves are going to leave behind, as the place where we were standing. How could humankind there is no greater gift than security, no greater insurance have possibly managed to create and continue such policy than stability and no greater legacy than peace. fruitless slaughter? John Keegan, at the end of his masterpiece history of the First World War, describes 7.30 pm it as a mystery: “Why did a prosperous continent, at the height of its success Lord Birt (CB): My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow as a source and agent of global wealth and power and at one of such a compellingly argued and inspiring speech from the peaks of its intellectual and cultural achievement, choose to the noble Baroness. risk all it had won for itself and all it offered to the world in the I have more family stories for your Lordships. I am lottery of a vicious and local internecine conflict?”. here, I exist, only because both my grandfathers survived Some 1 million British, 1.7 million French, 2 million the First World War. My paternal grandfather, William, Germans and many others lost their lives in the Great born into a Liverpool Catholic family, was an athlete: War, yet the First World War was unfinished business. he played football as a schoolboy for the north of England, Only two decades later it seeded the Second World and as a boxer he sparred with Bombardier Billy War, with even greater horror—a fivefold increase in Wells. William served at the front in the Royal Horse loss of life. No one has expressed that better today Artillery, losing a toe during the years of conflict. than the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup. 1603 Armistice Day: Centenary [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1604

So far,the post-war embryonic alliances that eventually countless other bravery awards. One example from grew into the European Union have succeeded in 1914 is Darwan Singh Negi, a non-commissioned locking most of the countries of mainland Europe officer of the 1st Battalion, 39th Garhwal Rifles, who into a secure, harmonious and prosperous peace. The was awarded the Victoria Cross. The desperate nature single most poignant post-war image for me is President of the fighting may be judged by the fact that in the Mitterrand and Chancellor Kohl standing together at same action the battalion earned 16 other medals. By Verdun in 1984, side by side and hand-in-hand. Even the battle’s end, the corps had lost some 2,000 men, without us, may those European bonds remain forever who were killed and missing, and 4,000 were wounded. strong and may catastrophic war never again blight At enormous sacrifice, the hard-pressed forces of the our continent. Indian Army and their comrades of the BEF had thwarted what the German high command had hoped 7.37 pm would be a decisive victory. Without the sacrifice of the Indian soldiers, the outcome of these battles in Lord Rana (Con): My Lords, I also convey my 1914 could have been different. Neither formation thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Ashton, for today’s would ever fully recover from the ordeal. debate. Visiting our ancestral village in early childhood, I In the course of 1915, the British Army, which by came to know that nearly every house had one or two July had grown into 21 divisions, was engaged in a male members in the army. Sadly, some of them never series of bitter but inconclusive battles. By returned. It is a hilly area of Punjab with very small October l915, the corps’ casualty list of killed, missing, land holdings, and the only occupation was joining the and wounded amounted to over 21,000. Of the 47th army. They were professional soldiers and took pride Sikhs, only 28 men and no officers remained. Indian in their profession. Many were recognised for their soldiers fought on various fronts: Mesopotamia, Gallipoli outstanding service and bravery. and Haifa. When the Empire went to war with Germany in In 1916, the Middle East had become the Indian August 1914, its only fully trained and battle-worthy Army’s principal theatre of operations. Given the reserves immediately available to deploy in support of scale of their losses at the Somme in 1916, Passchendaele the British Expeditionary Force were the regular soldiers in 1917, and in the great German offensive of spring of the Indian Army. In addition to them, the military 1918, the British had little enough to spare for the war authorities were also able to withdraw almost all the in the Middle East. The campaign that took Baghdad regular British battalions from India for service in on 11 March 1917 and then advanced to Mosul and Europe. Only nine regular British battalions were retained Kirkuk would not have been feasible without Indian in the country to keep a watch on the perennially troops. So, too, Sir Edmund Allenby’svictorious advance problematic North-West Frontier and Afghanistan, in Palestine and Syria in 1918 depended in large part whose intentions could be altered by a change in on the 54 infantry battalions and the 13 cavalry squadrons ruler—as was to happen, but not until 1919. shipped from India to replace British troops that had The British Expeditionary Force that crossed over to be sent to the Western Front. to France in August 1914 was initially fewer than 90,000, which, with their French allies, faced the German By the war’s end, some 1.5 million had volunteered spear-head of 320,000 strong. In all, Germany had an for the Indian Army; over 74,000 of them were not to attacking force of about 1.5 million. All sides suffered return from service. We have not even touched on the severely in the bitter fighting that followed. By the end material side of India’s contribution to the Empire’s of the battle of Ypres in November, the effect of the war efforts. That contribution was truly remarkable. fighting may be judged by the fact that the 7th Division, As the noble Lord, Lord Gadhia, already mentioned, which had entered Belgium on 6 October almost 18,000 Mahatma Gandhi, the great leader of India’s freedom strong, had by 5 November been reduced to less than struggle, who was in London in August 1914, set one-third of its inventory. It was this hard reality that about organising an Indian ambulance corps. The made the resources of the Indian Army so vital. When rulers of princely states were generous in their support. it landed in Europe, not only was the Indian Army not Ganga Singh, Maharaja of Bikaner, and Bhupinder well equipped, it was also unfamiliar with the terrain, Singh, Maharaja of Patiala, both sailed for Europe. the climate of northern Europe and trench warfare. It The latter raised 17,000 men from his state, visited a is remarkable how it coped. number of fighting fronts and, by the war’s end, was an honorary major-general. The Indian Army had some 14,000 infantry and 1,700 cavalry. The Germans had launched 12 and a Now that we are commemorating the centenary of half divisions into what was to become the First Battle the Armistice, we should also remember the unsurpassed of Ypres. Its purpose was to capture the channel ports sacrifice to the war effort from the Indian sub-continent, that were basic to the British war effort and the very in both the First World War and the Second World security of the British mainland. It was a battle like no War. The monthly salary of an Indian soldier was just other. By the end, the BEF had virtually ceased to 15 rupees—about one guinea. They left their homes exist, losing some 50,000 men. The troops of the and travelled to all parts of Europe, the Middle East Indian Corps replaced 32,000 men of the BEF’s II and Africa to fight for the Empire for very little. The Corps. The fighting that followed was marked by acts total number of military and civilian casualties in of individual bravery of the highest honour. World War I and World War II is estimated to be In the course of the war, 11 Victoria Crosses were 100 million. Think seriously: it is a horrendous number awarded to Indian and Nepalese soldiers, as well as of people, affecting many more families. 1605 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1606

[LORD RANA] visited by more than 150,000 people from the United What have we learned from this most deadly chapter Kingdom every year. It was where John McCrae, in human history? Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther sitting in the back of a field ambulance close to what King, Nelson Mandela and other preachers of peace became the Essex Farm Cemetery, wrote “In Flanders have come and gone. We are still living in a very Fields”, quoted by my noble friend Lady Crawley so dangerous world where there are too many trigger-happy movingly earlier. Below the fields of Pilckem Ridge, Governments and individuals, ready to fight rather outside the cemetery, lie the remains of countless than sit down together to talk and listen. Commemorating soldiers—perhaps as many as 200,000. The undeveloped Armistice Day and remembering the millions who farming area provides a peaceful last resting place for died in these wars, we should work together to build a them, although fresh remains are found every time the peaceful world. fields are ploughed. When I returned to the UK, I tabled an Oral 7.48 pm Question in this House which led to many Members Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab): My Lords, we saying that they wanted to support the campaign to are now almost at the end of this commemorative stop the motorway and preserve the Pilckem Ridge journey. I start by saying how proud I have been to battlefield. As a result, we established the All-Party serve on the Government’s World War I advisory Parliamentary War Heritage Group, which continues board, along with other speakers in this debate. At to this day, with the remit of promoting and supporting meeting after meeting, I have been impressed by the the protection, conservation and interpretation of war diversity and dignity of the events that have been graves, war memorials and battlefield sites. Two organised in all parts of the United Kingdom, in distinguished academics—Peter Barton and Professor Ireland, and in France and Belgium. Others have Peter Doyle—volunteered to become involved having spoken of the brilliance of the DCMS team, and I pay heard about my visit to Ypres, and Professor Doyle is particular tribute to David Thompson and Jennifer still the group’s secretary.I continue to serve as co-chair, Shaw for keeping the show on the road so brilliantly. alongside Sir Jeffrey Donaldson MP, a fellow member In preparing for today, I looked back at what was of the Government’s World War I advisory board. said in your Lordships’ House in June 2014, on the eve As a group, we engaged with the Flanders Government of the centenary of the start of the conflict. I commented and, to their great credit, they abandoned the plans for in that debate that a great deal of preparation had the motorway extension. Now, each year, they organise been put in place and hoped that it would capture the impressive commemoration events around 11 November. imagination of as many people as possible. I also, This year, for example, they are having as their perhaps slightly prematurely, paid tribute to the work 15th “Flanders Remembers”event a concert in St Paul’s of Dr Andrew Murrison MP, the Prime Minister’s Cathedral on 8 November. special representative for the centenary commemoration, So much has been going on in the past four years and I am delighted to be able to do so again, four years that it is impossible in a single speech to cover more on, as have other speakers in this debate. Since the than a few examples. I hope, therefore, that the House summer of 2011, there have been no fewer than seven will allow me to concentrate on just two areas where I Secretaries of State at the head of DCMS but, fortunately, have some personal involvement. there has been only one Dr Murrison. It is greatly to ThefirstistheWorcestershireWorldWar100programme. his credit that the tone and content of the commemoration This is a partnership led by the Worcestershire Archive programme has been correctly nuanced. It would have and Archaeology Service under the inspired leadership been so easy to get this wrong, but that has not of Dr Adrian Gregson, deputy leader of Worcester happened. The theme of commemoration not celebration City Council, and directed from The Hive, Europe’s is right, as is the determination to combine the traditional first joint university and public library. The 2011 to act of remembrance with new initiatives to engage as 2019 programme includes council and independent much of the population as possible, especially young museums,archives,theuniversity,thecathedral,regimental people. In such a fractured and divided world, it is associations, Army museums, trusts, local libraries, great that the commemoration programme has succeeded charities, the Western Front Association, the Royal in bringing us together—members of all races and British Legion and armed services’ benevolent funds. ethnic groups, young and old particularly. The project cost was £674,000, which attracted a Heritage My involvement in the commemoration came about Lottery Fund grant of £353,000. almost by accident. Towards the end of 2001, when I Examples of what has been done include a people’s was still a relatively new Member here, I received a collection—material loaned or deposited and collected letter from a Belgian senator who warned me that the by local people in towns all over the county. The Flanders Government planned to extend the World War I bell tent has had 40 outings at shows, A19 motorway across Pilckem Ridge, the scene of weekend events, schools, libraries and community some of the fiercest fighting in the Ypres Salient—a groups—including in urban and rural schools in more road which would have cut the battlefield in two. I was deprived areas and with local ethnic communities—with sufficiently intrigued by this to pay a visit to Pilckem re-enactors and other activities including poetry and Ridge during that Christmas Recess. I found that it poppy making. There have been displays marking remained largely untouched by development. specific centenary events involving Worcestershire Pre-1915 photographs show the same farm buildings regiments—such as the battles of Gheluvelt, Gallipoli, and the same field layout. The landscape has acquired Qatia, Passchendaele and the spring offensive—plus more than a dozen Commonwealth War Graves longer-term exhibitions on the theme of “Back in Commission cemeteries, places of peace and tranquillity, Blighty”and the paintings of Benjamin Williams Leader. 1607 Armistice Day: Centenary [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1608

The programme has organised heritage trails and came from the United States. In fact, 10% of the exhibitions on the lives of Worcestershire’s very own Russian army’s total strength was Muslim, about VestaTilleyandStuddertKennedy—WoodbineWillie—as 1.5 million soldiers. well as a war memorials bike ride. The “Fields of Muslims were recognised with decorations for their Battle: Lands of Peace”outdoor photographic exhibition bravery and valour in combat during the First World by Mike Shiel, which many of your Lordships may War.The Légion d’honneur was awarded to the Moroccan have seen elsewhere, has been seen by 400,000 people. Division. During the Battle of the Marne, these brave The South Eastern and Chatham Railway carriage soldiers were successful in halting the German troops’ which brought back the bodies of Edith Cavell and the advance on Paris. This incredible feat was called unknown warrior came to the Severn Valley Railway the miracle on the Marne. However, only 800 of the on loan this summer. I should declare an interest as 4,000 Moroccan soldiers survived the battle.Furthermore, president of the Heritage Railway Association. Worcester in British West Africa, 30% of African Distinguished will play its part in the Victoria Cross paving stone Conduct Medals awarded to those who served were programme and is organising a military parade of the given to Nigerian Muslims who fought in Cameroon. Mercian Regiment in honour of Fred Dancox VC. Muslim contributions were not only confined to The story is the same the length and breadth of the military activities. Muslims also served in army nursing country. There has scarcely been a town or village units, and in fact the Hui—the Chinese Muslims— which has not held its own commemoration. In my were a substantial part of the Chinese labour force last few seconds, I pay a special tribute to the International in Europe, on the eastern front, in Africa and in Guild of Battlefield Guides; I have the honour to be Mesopotamia. its patron. It advises me that 1,800 schools have taken part in the battlefield tours programme and 6,500 teachers Muslim soldiers shared their food with locals who and students have been on a battlefield tour, many were suffering from the famine in Europe. Prophet guided by guild members. They bring the former Muhammad—peace be upon him—and Caliph Abu battlefields to life for the teachers and students. Guild Bakr laid down clear rules of engagement in warfare. guides have also played a key role in special school One of the tenets in Islam is that Muslims should treat tours which commemorated a range of battles, including enemy soldiers with respect and look after them. In Loos, the Somme, Arras, Vimy Ridge, third Ypres and view of this belief, Muslim soldiers asked their officers the spring offensive. The international programme to ensure that captured prisoners of war be taken to a was part of the Amiens 100 commemorations. place that had been prepared for them, and that they be properly fed and not harmed or tortured. Muslim The evidence across the battlefield guiding industry soldiers felt that prisoners of war should be treated is that bookings for 2019 are higher this year than was with mercy and kindness. Furthermore, Muslims shared evident 12 months ago. That is interesting, and flies in their native traditional medical knowledge with nurses the face of the accepted wisdom that the end of the and doctors who had run out of medical supplies at centenary would mean a huge fall in battlefield tourism, the battlefront. and perhaps in remembrance. That is not so, and numbers are higher due to a wider percentage of the I turn now to Muslims from India. Although I was UK population being aware of the Western Front born in east Africa, I have Indian heritage.My grandfather battlefields as a result of the centenary and the successful joined the British Indian Army and fought in Palestine. way in which it is being commemorated. That is a This subject, therefore, is of personal interest to me. really positive legacy. India raised the world’s largest volunteer army, with a total of 1.5 million soldiers during the First World War. This was greater than the combined total of all 7.57 pm volunteers from Scotland, Wales and Ireland. There Lord Sheikh (Con): My Lords, we all know that this were 400,000 Muslims from India who were part of year marks the centenary of the First World War the British Volunteer Army. They fought out of love Armistice. The centenary reminds us of the pivotal and loyalty to the King-Emperor and the Empire. role that our Armed Forces have played in shaping our They felt honour in fighting for their King, and it was country’s history. This was a conflict that resulted in this sense of loyalty and dedication that endeared suffering on an unprecedented scale. them to many of their British comrades. I pay tribute to the contribution of Muslims during The First World War marked the first time that the First World War. The significant part played in the Muslim soldiers ever fought on European ground. First World War by Muslims is not widely acknowledged They were originally called upon for help when British and has been historically undervalued. Efforts must be forces were suffering heavy casualties. This demonstrates made to redress that. I hope that today’s debate will just how historically important their role was. There inform others and help to address this imbalance. were seven Indian Expeditionary Forces that included At least 2.5 million Muslim soldiers and labourers Muslims and they provided crucial support, fighting from all over the world fought with the allied forces directly alongside British forces in Europe. In fact, at with dignity and honour. They came from many different the Battle of Neuve-Chapelle, they provided half the countries, including Algeria, Canada, China, Egypt, attacking force. A British general described them as a France, India, Morocco, Russia, Senegal, Somalia, magnificent body that performed the most useful and South Africa, Tunisia and the United States. A million valuable service. soldiers and labourers came from Egypt, 80,000 soldiers The Indian forces also saw action in east Africa, came from Tunisia, 63,000 soldiers came from Morocco, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Gallipoli and Palestine. More 173,000 soldiers came from Algeria and 5,000 soldiers than 74,000 Indian troops, including Muslims, were 1609 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1610

[LORD SHEIKH] and in trying to bring conflicts to an end—and there I killed or declared missing in action during the First World would mention the case of Yemen, which is very much War, a number that is testament to the level of sacrifice a case in point. and loyalty shown by the Indians in supporting the Secondly, 1918 saw a great surge in demand to hang allied forces. Indian troops were awarded 13,000 medals the Kaiser—probably not the best way to proceed if, for gallantry, including 11 Victoria Crosses. Sepoy like me, you are opposed to capital punishment. It Khudadad Khan was the first non-white person to be reminds us, however, of the need to have a genuinely awarded the Victoria Cross for his gallantry in the face effective means of bringing to account those who of overwhelming numbers. He was a Muslim who initiate wars of aggression and those who commit war came from a place called Chakwal in present-day crimes. That means standing up firmly against the Pakistan. He served in the 129th Duke of Connaught’s quite disgraceful speech recently made by the US Own Baluchis regiment. He fought in Belgium in 1914 National Security Advisor, John Bolton, attacking the and single-handedly kept German forces at bay in the International Criminal Court. We need to do everything Battle of Ypres after all his comrades had been killed, we can to make that court effective. right up to the point where his position was overrun. It is thought that his actions helped to ensure that two The third lesson is the responsibility of uncontrolled vital ports used to supply British troops remained in arms races in creating the conditions for war. Obviously, allied hands. Two other Muslims were awarded the in the case of the First World War the clearest example Victoria Cross: Mir Dast and Shahamad Khan. Such was the naval arms race between Britain and Germany. stories are significant as they personalise the efforts of That was of course an age before nuclear weapons and Muslims in the armed forces, allowing us to see beyond the intercontinental ballistic missiles to deliver them. statistics and into the hearts of these brave soldiers. But we need to recognise that we live today in an age A number of Muslims who died as a result of when arms races do still pose a risk. Just look at the injuries sustained in action in the First World War naval arms race that is going on in the Far East at the were buried on Horsell Common in Woking. The moment. This is a moment, too, when even the rather Muslim soldiers were able to prove that it was possible inadequate international agreements on arms control to be loyal both to their faith and to a country are beginning to atrophy; the most recent example, of simultaneously.For many Muslims, religious observances course, being the US decision to announce its intention were crucial for coping with the hardships and challenges to withdraw from the INF. We surely need to try to on the battlefront. reverse that trend. I also pay tribute to other Indian soldiers in the Fourthly, it may be that in 1918 it was recognised British Army who were Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Christian that some categories of weapon were just too horrendous and from other religions. As mentioned earlier, there to tolerate. That led to the worldwide ban on the use of were 1.5 million soldiers from undivided India. We poison gas in 1925. But we have to realise now—and should never forget their contribution. The union jack we do realise—that the provisions of the Chemical meant a lot to them and a number of them paid the Weapons Convention, which was the implementation ultimate price. Will the Minister comment on the of that commitment in 1925, are being flouted in Syria contribution of Muslims during the First World War? and, of course, closer to home, in Salisbury. Last week I arranged a meeting in the House of Lords Fifthly, perhaps the most important lesson to draw to discuss that contribution, which was attended by from 1918 was that the world could not afford to rely several parliamentarians, including my noble friend on informal co-operation between the great powers of Lord Lexden. The event created a great deal of interest the day, whoever they might be—the so-called Concert and was very much oversubscribed. of Europe—to prevent conflicts breaking out. That realisation led to the foundation of the League of Nations, which of course proved unable to fulfil its 8:07 pm purpose; and then, after the Second World War, it led Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB): My Lords, perhaps to the foundation of the United Nations. Today we one good way to mark the centenary of the end of the have a President of the United States, in contrast to First World War is to identify the main lessons from Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt, who can that appalling catastrophe that still have relevance and see no use for the UN and little benefit from the resonance today, and to commit ourselves to a renewed collective security it and NATO are set up to provide. effort to apply those lessons which, I fear—as my That is a pretty sobering prospect, and so surely, as a remarks will show, I hope—we are not doing all that nation which supports a rules-based international order, successfully. So here is a short list, although by no we need to get together with other like-minded countries means an exhaustive one. to resist that trend. Of course, it is difficult to describe It certainly was not the war to end all wars. We leaving the European Union, which has done so much surely do now need to put more resources and more to heal the wounds from 1918 and 1945, as a step in political backing into conflict prevention, principally the right direction. though not exclusively through the United Nations. Finally, and sixthly, there was one lesson which We should encourage the UN Secretary-General to perhaps we have done a bit more to learn. One hundred make more use of Article 99 of the charter, which years ago marked the apogee of a world influenza enables him, on his own initiative, to bring threats to pandemic, wrongly known as Spanish influenza, which peace and security before the Security Council. Weshould killed more people worldwide than the war itself, bolster his conflict-prevention capacity. We should many of them weakened by the privations of war. also be more active ourselves in both conflict prevention Since then we have got a little better at dealing with 1611 Armistice Day: Centenary [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1612 that sort of global pandemic—just a bit better, but War, and torn apart and dismembered from 1914 to remember that we did not do terribly well with Ebola 1918, was again torn apart in the Second World War. the first time it broke out, and are we absolutely sure It must not happen again. that we would do better if we were assailed by another We did better after the Second World War, with the pandemic? founding of NATO and—I make no apology for saying it—the founding of the European Union. Full of So there are six either unlearned or at least imperfectly imperfections as any human institution is, it did so learned lessons, all of them originating from 1918—quite much, first through the Coal and Steel Community, to a challenge if the world is not to fall into some of the bring together those who had in some cases been same horrors it fell into then. enemies for centuries. We were late in on the act, but we are a European power. We prevented the hegemony of France in the early 18th century with the treaty of 8.14 pm Utrecht. We prevented it again just 100 years later; we Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, it is a pleasure to can go into the Royal Gallery and see that wonderful follow the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, who indeed picture of Wellington on the field of Waterloo. We points out some extremely important lessons. prevented it again—with wonderful allies to whom there has been much and proper reference during the Along with my noble and indefatigable friend the course of this debate—in 1918; and again in 1945, Minister, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, when some of the most stirring rhetoric of the war I have heard every single speech of this remarkable came from the Dispatch Box in this Chamber, because debate. I will begin by adding my tribute to another the Commons met in here for most of the war. It was tireless person, who does not even have a seat, and say from that Dispatch Box that Churchill delivered most how much we all appreciate what Dr Murrison has of his great wartime speeches. done over the last four years. When we came together to join the European Union, Forty-eight hours ago I was sitting in Lincoln we were already a founding and leading member of Cathedral. It was probably the largest choir ever assembled NATO. We have done much to play a leading part, there, with choral societies from all over Lincolnshire, looked up to by the Baltic states, Finland and some of together with the cathedral’s own choir: over 400 singers the smaller countries as a leader. They are distraught and two orchestras had come to take part in Britten’s that we are leaving, but we are. The moral of this is not “War Requiem”. It was an intensely moving evening. to refight the referendum; I do not want a second They very cleverly projected on to one of those soaring referendum. The moral is to say that it is incumbent Purbeck marble columns at the end of our glorious upon us to forge the strongest possible links with our nave the names of Lincolnshire men who had died in friends, allies and neighbours in Europe in the years to the First World War. It was moving, too, when at the come. We also have to remember that there are threats end—as happens, and as will doubtless happen at the as yet unspoken of in this debate, or potential threats. Albert Hall on Saturday night—poppies came drifting I agree entirely with my noble friend Lord Balfe down. As I sat there, various thoughts came to mind. I when he talks about Russia. He is right. It may not be thought of my mother, who had no brothers but had the most attractive regime, but let us think back to the six male cousins, five of whom perished in the First days of what Reagan called the “evil empire”. Let us World War. My noble friend Lord Shrewsbury referred remember also that in Muslim extremism and terrorism in his speech to Staffordshire, which was my adopted we have a common foe, which is not to gainsay any of county for over 40 years. I had the honour to represent the positive remarks made about Muslims a few minutes a Staffordshire constituency in the other place, and I ago. We have got to be together. was churchwarden in Enville, the little village in the We have also got to remember one other thing that south to which he referred. I had to take part in the has not been mentioned at all in this debate: the service, either there or in the neighbouring village of Second World War, which we shall be commemorating Kinver, every Remembrance Sunday, where the list on Sunday too, was also fought in the Far East. was read out: something like 45 or 50 names from “For their tomorrow, we gave our today”. Enville and Kinver,these two small Staffordshire villages. Those words will be read out. I want us to have the It was an extraordinary cataclysm. It has not been most positive commercial and other friendships that mentioned today but it brought crashing down four we can with China. But let us not forget, that is a empires: the empire of the Kaiser, the empire of the dominant power. It will be the most powerful nation Tsar, the Ottoman Empire and the Austro-Hungarian in the world by the middle of this century. It has Empire, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, already created for itself the semblance of an empire referred in a particularly moving and apposite speech. in Africa. We have got to be prepared and be aware It is crucial that we remember sacrifice, but that our defence policy is crucial, our defence expenditure remembrance is hollow unless it is accompanied by a is vital and our vigilance is utterly necessary—because determination that this should not happen again. The if we are not aware of that, we shall be letting down noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, made an important the people we were thinking of in Lincoln Cathedral speech at the beginning of this debate when he said, in 48 hours ago, during that Great War requiem. effect, that 21 years later we were at it again—in 1939, the year of my birth. I was born just a few months 8.24 pm before the outbreak of that war in which my father Viscount Bridgeman (Con): My Lords, I am most served throughout. The continent that was torn apart grateful to your Lordships for permitting me to speak between 1618 and 1648 in the ghastly Thirty Years in the gap. The Minister made a most impressive 1613 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1614

[VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN] told me that at one point he was second in command introductory speech to this debate. He referred to the of the remnants of his battalion as a sergeant, with participation of the two Irish divisions at the battle of only one officer left. Messines in 1917. I can add another significant fact: I want to focus on how well we have commemorated alongside those two Irish divisions were an Australian the centenary of the first global war, and what lessons division and a New Zealand one. The noble Lord, we should take from this for the approach to future Lord Birt, referred to the famous 36th (Ulster) Division, commemorations, including those for the centenary of but the 16th Division, from the south of Ireland, was the Second World War in 20 years’ time. Like the staffed entirely from the south into the five regiments from noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup and the noble southern Ireland, which were disbanded in 1922. Lord, Lord Faulkner, I have been on the Government’s I was interested to hear about the experience of the advisory group for the commemoration of World War noble Lord, Lord Balfe, with his Irish forebears; but One. I saw the early exchanges in Whitehall about the returning Irish servicemen from the British Army had approach to take and I was the first British Minister to to be totally concealed within their family. They were talk to the German Foreign Office about how we treated like black sheep and could never be referred to. might work with it to remember together. There is distressing evidence that has come to light As we all know, history is a constant battle over that there were several murders of men who had been preferred narratives. As a nation, we British are deeply identified as having served in the British Army. That divided and confused about which historical narratives lasted right through the Second World War, but then we prefer. I recall seeing an early memorandum to the came the remarkable transformation of the British-Irish then Prime Minister in 2012 which stated that, in our relationship. There were the significant contributions approach to the commemoration of World War I, we by the two presidents to the peace process; then the should ensure that we did not give support to the myth Belfast agreement; the visit of Her Majesty the Queen that European integration was the outcome of the two to Dublin; and the visit by President Higgins to London, world wars. The Government’s stated purposes in where he found time to inspect the laid-up colours of their approach to the commemoration of the centenary the five regiments in St George’s Chapel. were youth and education. We achieved that aim in I am a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary engaging our younger generations to discover the histories Assembly. Four years ago, it was the UK’s turn to host of their local communities in war and the impact of the meeting. We met in Ashford in Kent and took the loss of life on families throughout Britain. We coaches through to the Ypres battlefields. There are a have done very well in symbolising reconciliation with remarkable number of Irish memorials, even in that Germany, from the shared events in St Symphorien smaller bit of the Western Front, in addition of course cemetery, the shared concert with the Bundestag choir to the cemeteries. Our Irish colleagues were really and the participation of President Steinmeier in the impressed by all these, because the graves had not ceremonies of next weekend. been visited for a century in the vast majority of However, we have failed in educating our younger cases, either by their compatriots or, indeed, by their generation about the wider context of the war and the families. In the Tyne Cot Cemetery, which I think is extent to which British forces depended on the contribution the largest cemetery of the Commonwealth War Graves of allies and imperial troops. We have not embarked Commission—that remarkable organisation—I came on the exercise which the noble and gallant Lord, across the grave of an Irish soldier of the Great War, Lord Stirrup, so eloquently called for. I recall entering known only to God. One can speculate that it might a book shop in the Yorkshire Dales two or three years well have been a crucifix which was the only identifying ago—as well stocked with volumes on the two world object—but that may be. My Irish friend was in tears. wars as on steam trains and Yorkshire traditions—to That is the legacy which we now enjoy within British-Irish find the owner arguing with a visitor about Brexit. He relations, and we can pay proper tribute to 30,000 deaths, was saying: “After all, we beat the Germans in two more or less distributed between those two Irish divisions, world wars and now they are telling us what to do”. and acknowledge the contribution that Ireland made That echoes one of the widely held myths of British to the Great War. history, propounded by Margaret Thatcher among others, that Britain stood alone in two world wars to 8.28 pm defend freedom against tyranny when others had given Lord Trefgarne (Con): My Lords, with your Lordships’ up the fight. I tentatively suggested that we had had a permission, I will speak for a few seconds only. My lot of help from others in both wars, most of all from father was born in 1894, so he was just old enough to the Americans. I was told that, so far as he knew, the serve in the First World War, which he did—first in the Americans had not taken part in World War 1. Devonshire Yeomanry,then in the South Wales Borderers, It is not that surprising that few Britons appreciate and finally in the Royal Flying Corps. All I need to say the importance of the American contribution. In spite is that he was there. of proposals that we should make a major event of the US entry into the war,the only significant commemorative 8.29 pm event took place on the Scottish island of Islay earlier Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, 1 was the this year, beyond the reach of major news programmes. youngest child of a late family. My father reached It marked the wreck of two US transports as they 18 in 1917 and went out in a reinforcement draft to the approached the Clyde: important, but not helping our Highland Division in March 1918, just as the last younger generation to understand just how vital the great German attack was launched. When at last, in USA was to the achievement of victory after four his mid-80s, he began to talk about his experiences, he exhausting years of a war of attrition. 1615 Armistice Day: Centenary [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1616

In contrast to the welcome gestures of reconciliation resistance to occupation we supported in World War II to our former German enemies, we have neglected the and, with the Americans, our closest ally today, should contributions of our allies and imperial forces. We held of course also be included. a small ceremony by the statue of Marshal Foch in Britain did not stand alone, in either world war. London last April, to mark the point at which British The myth that we did—that we not only invented forces came under his overall command, with a Guards freedom but saved it from continental tyranny—is band and the participation of two French soldiers from embedded in our most widespread national narrative, Foch’sformer regiment. Wehave not recalled that elements and in the way we have approached commemoration of the Belgian army held part of the Ypres salient of the sacrifices in the two wars. As we reflect on the throughout the First World War, using England as efforts we have made to educate our younger generations their support and supply base. As several other noble on the national experience of World War I, I hope that Lords have said, we have done far too little to inform we will learn lessons for a more inclusive approach in most of our younger generation of the importance of the future: a recognition that Britain’s security has the Indian army. Less has been said of the West Indies been maintained with the support of others, and will Regiment in the Palestine campaign. I recall the noble be maintained in the future only if we continue to and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, remarking that co-operate with others within an institutionalised her grandfather was a sergeant in one of its battalions. European and international order. We have missed a great opportunity to contribute to national integration and to encourage more from our Asian and other ethnic minorities to enlist in our 8.37 pm forces today. We have failed to explain how closely our Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab): My Lords, it is a history is linked to our continental neighbours. great privilege to play a part in a debate of this kind The French commemoration has been much more and I am very grateful for the opportunity. generous to its partners and allies, as well as to its As it happens, the first speech, by the Minister, and former enemies. An open-air exhibition along the the last, by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, have both Champs Elysées, in 2014 to 2015, carried pictures of referenced the participation by the German President allied troops in all their diversity: Scots, English, Indian, in our commemorative events this weekend. That Moroccan and Algerian as well as French. British emboldens me to begin by quoting from a German troops have marched in their 14 July parade. A special philosopher, Leibniz, who once said that the present is ceremony in Paris marked the American entry into the suffused with the past and charged with the future. war, impressing President Trump so much that he There is, then, no time like the present, this centenary wanted to initiate regular military parades in Washington moment, to take stock of what has gone before while on his return. The British, in contrast, have focused on positioning ourselves for what is to come. our own war and our own forces, leaving the Americans, This debate has been a perfect vehicle for exploring French, Belgians, Indians, even the Australians and this dynamic, and we can only thank all who have Canadians, too much in the background. contributed for their evocative, personal and challenging The remembrance ceremony at the Cenotaph is, in remarks. From this vantage point, we in this Parliament, effect,theannualsymbolicrepresentationof Britishhistory and the nation at large, must bring the past alive again, and identity.In 1919, the first parade past the Cenotaph not for its own sake but in order to recommit ourselves included troops from 12 empire and allied forces—the to the future—a note that has been struck again and French, Americans and others—as well as from Britain. again during this debate. Since then, however, it has shrunk to an entirely A kaleidoscopic array of experiences has flooded British ceremony, unchanged for over half a century my mind, as it has the minds of us all, and shown us and almost entirely white, with only the Commonwealth just how connected we all are to the events of 1914-18. high commissioners from outside the UK. I welcome Let me run down a short list of such memories that the participation of the German president in this spring from my own mind, not in the hope of being year’s event as a welcome sign of openness to change. exhaustive but in an attempt to illustrate the wide Should we not in future years follow the French spectrum of our national and international life that example in their 14 July ceremonies and invite contingents was drawn into this conflict 100 years ago. from other countries, with whom we have shared—and The Sunday school room in Burry Port where I still share—common dangers and threats, to take part? used to play and learn as a boy was a simple, lean-to, This could include contingents from India and Pakistan, wooden affair—not Lincoln Cathedral. A certificate to mark how much Britain depended on their predecessors on the wall carried the name of Bert Owen. Many in past conflicts; Polish troops and airmen, to explain years later, I discovered that he had survived the to our young people the crucial contributions that horrendous battle for Mametz Wood in 1915 but died they made in the Second World War—in intelligence, two years later at the battle of Messines. A photograph in the Battle of Britain, at Arnhem and Monte Cassino; on our kitchen wall at home shows Private Robert and Belgian forces, to make our right-wing politicians Edward Rhodes with his simple medals, from recognise that many Belgians fought on, from British Staffordshire. He would have been my wife’s great-uncle. bases, in both world wars. When in Government, I He died aged 21 in Flanders fields. These were two recall a Conservative Minister remarking that the Belgians lads from small towns, just like millions of others, and never fight, to be sharply corrected by an official who many references have been made to just such people. reminded him that Belgian and British planes were “Short days” they, flying joint missions over Libya at that time. The “lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow, French, our most vital ally in World War I, whose Loved and were loved”. 1617 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1618

[LORD GRIFFITHS OF BURRY PORT] movement who had been awarded the Victoria Cross My student holiday job was as a male nurse in for their courage and leadership during the Great War. St David’s mental hospital in Carmarthen. I shaved I remember that the names of hundreds of young and bathed a poor man who had been gassed and soldiers are written in magnificent copper-plate on a shell-shocked 40 years previously before being committed vast, framed roll of honour in the parish of Saint to that institution where, as far as I know, he spent the John, in Croydon, where I now live—or chiselled on remainder of his days. I remember the geriatric ward large marble slabs on the chapel wall at Trinity College, of a local hospital at the very beginning of my life as a Cambridge. They remind us of all those who paid the Methodist minister. The mere sight of a young man supreme price on the battlefields, and they remind us wearing a clerical collar was enough to set off a of the classlessness of those from across the social barrage of abuse aimed directly at me—there was no spectrum who gave what was their today so that we place for God in the minds of so many of those who might enjoy what would become our tomorrow. endured the trenches. Those were two hospitals where “At the going down of the sun and in the morning veterans were victims, just like millions of others, who We will remember them”— had heard, the words of Lawrence Binyon, will ring out across the “The shrill demented choirs of wailing shells”, land over the next few days. I feel a need to hold these but were now left to deal with their ghosts and their words up for greater scrutiny, especially the word unresolved anger, or else just kept out of sight because “remember”, and I hope noble Lords will forgive me their cases were too hard for us to contemplate. for this. The verb “to remember” is one of the English Another of my holiday jobs was to help demolish language’s precious jewels. It has a distinctive meaning what had been a national explosives factory in Pembrey. which is often lost in the way we employ it. I suspect Millions of shells and tons of explosives were we would do well to pronounce it differently: to “re- manufactured there.The factory poured its toxic chemicals member”, with a hyphen in it, rather than simply into the sea where I and my pals used to swim and “remember”. We “re-member” that which has been cavort. Its workforce during the Great War was largely “dis-membered”. Memory serves a greater purpose made up of women—their yellowing skin and hair than merely recapturing something that is in danger of making it only too obvious where they worked. passing out of our minds. “Re-membering” is about rebuilding a fragmented world, putting flesh on the Margaret Broadley was deputy matron of the London ideals we have for our world. How better to honour Hospital. She lived out her life as a spinster, sublimating the memory of those who paid such a price for our the deep energies of the love she once had for her freedom? sweetheart through her chosen vocation of nursing. She never forgot, as she told me often enough, his What followed the First World War, far from “re- kisses and caresses. Those were women, like millions membering” a dismembered social order, too often of others, working tirelessly behind the scenes, so simply added to its fragmentation. It concerned itself many of them widowed before they were wed. with punishment and revenge rather than reconstruction. The Second World War became an inevitable consequence I am wearing a khadi poppy, of which much mention of the failure to win the peace. has been made. Let it stand this evening, with permission, As the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, has said, it was in for Indians, Africans and Caribbean soldiers, Sikhs, the years following the disintegration caused by the Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians. Second World War that the world seemed at last to Let us remember that not only soldiers served from have come to its senses. The founding of the United our imperial regions. I can picture the endless supply Nations and its various agencies, the Bretton Woods lines that supported the military effort. Recently, I agreement, the Marshall Plan, the European Union visited Kenya and met a number of people from a and NATO were all aimed at “re-membering” a sprawling township on the edge of Nairobi known to dismembered world. We set our target—let us not this day as Kariokor—the Carrier Corps. The place forget this—on: saving succeeding generations from name survives in its strange and mutilated form. the scourge of war; reaffirming faith in fundamental “Gathered like pearls in their alien graves”, human rights; establishing and maintaining the rule of lay what the poet Sarojini Naidu called the “Gift of law; promoting social progress. The object of our India”, and she would surely have added those of so emphatic intention to honour the memory of those many other places from around the Empire too. The who served their King and country in that godforsaken reading of that poem was one of the highlights of our war surely has to be to build a world worthy of their Parliament Choir’s commemorative performance of sacrifice. Mozart’s Mass in C minor just last week. Abraham Lincoln saw it that way—and only too I might also mention a cantata, a composition of clearly—when he stood at the battlefield of Gettysburg Brian Hughes performed in Cardiff by the National during his nation’s Civil War: Youth Choir of Wales, accompanied by the National “The world … can never forget what they did here. It is for us Youth Orchestra of Wales, called “Sorrows of the living, rather, to be dedicated … to the great task remaining the Somme”. Indeed, as has been mentioned often, the before us … that from these honored dead we take increased wide cultural response to the safeguarding of the devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion … that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not memories of that awful time have been very striking. have died in vain … that this nation, under God, shall have a new I come towards the end of my list of memories. I birth of freedom … and that government of the people, by the remember the memorial I dedicated in the National people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth”. Memorial Arboretum in my capacity as president of Gosh, those words ring true now.Lincoln! Thou shouldst the Boys Brigade. We remembered 11 members of our be living at this hour: the world hath need of thee. 1619 Armistice Day: Centenary [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Armistice Day: Centenary 1620

I am grateful for the privilege of adding my voice to us an excellent starter for 10. What this leads to is the those who have contributed to this debate, and of question of legacy and what will be left behind after giving thanks for the Armistice which brought the this 1914 period. We decided early on that we were First World War to its end. The challenge it leaves us going to stick with the two key dates, 1914 and 1918, with is clear enough. We must work hard for the but we hope that there will be a legacy. I hope that it “re-membering” of our dismembered world. We will may reassure noble Lords that, according to the truly honour the memory of those who have gone Government’s recent Taking Part survey, over 70% of before when we put our best efforts into building a people asked said that the centenary events had helped world fit for those who have yet to be born. Remembering them to understand what was experienced by people is a forward-looking activity. who lived at the time of the war. We are trying to build on this success. There are a number of projects, brought 8.50 pm about as part of the centenary commemorations, which TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department will continue to provide educational and cultural benefits for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of beyond the centenary period. Hyde) (Con): My Lords, we have had a most moving, For example, the Heritage Lottery Fund has awarded measured and dignified debate and I am most grateful more than £96 million to more than 2,200 First World toallnobleLordsacrosstheHousefortheircontributions, War projects, many at a local level. The Heritage which appropriately reflected the gravity of the subject Lottery Fund will continue to support projects that under discussion. I thank noble Lords for their kind help communities engage with and learn more about words about the efforts of DCMS. The credit absolutely their First World War heritage. These include such belongs to the officials in the department, whose energy things as the First World War Memorials Programme, hasbeenremarkable,eventotheextentof beinghospitalised a Historic England project that has added 2,500 war on one occasion. This was not due to some ghastly memorials to the National Heritage list for England accident, but was actually due to bedbugs: there was and repaired more than 400 war memorials in the UK. an infestation in one of the hotels they were staying in. My noble friend Lord Black and I have already mentioned Such is life in the Department of Digital, Culture, the Imperial War Museums. Their Lives of the First Media and Sport. World War project is an online resource which records I think the speeches this afternoon and this evening the stories of individuals from across Britain and the stood on their own merits and need no summary from Commonwealth who served in uniform or worked on me, even if I were capable of giving one, so I hope that the home front. noble Lords will forgive me if I do not pick out and Through this project, and the refurbishment of its comment on all individual speeches. To me, a number First World War galleries, which he mentioned, Imperial of themes came through. The first, mentioned by War Museums—which was of course founded in the many noble Lords, is that of India and the contribution middle of the First World War—has been a key partner made by soldiers from the Indian subcontinent, of to the Government over the centenary period. It was many religions, who came to our aid. I said in my also intimately involved in the 14-18 NOW project opening remarks that we have taken care to recognise with Peter Jackson in digitising and colouring World the participation of all our Commonwealth allies. I hope War I films. I recommend the programme “They Shall that I can provide reassurance to the noble Baroness, Not Grow Old”, which is on BBC2 at 9.30 on Lady Flather, and my noble friend Lord Sheikh about 11 November. Anyone who has seen it will know that some of the things that have taken place which have by taking old World War I films, digitising them and recognised that. Much of the Government’s wider colourising them, an amazing change has been made—it programme reflected that contribution, as I said. makes it appear as if you were there. There were examples such as “The Unremembered”, The Government have supported a number of other delivered by the Ministry of Housing, Communities projects. This includes £40 million for the First World and Local Government, which told some of the lesser- War Centenary Cathedral Repairs Fund and the known stories of those who volunteered, such as the £5.3 million battlefield tours project, which allowed Indian Labour Corps. In 2016, 14-18 NOW produced nearly 6,000 students and teachers to visit the battlefields. the “Doctor Blighty”exhibition in Brighton, a spectacular Over 1,700 schools have taken part and I am delighted light projection showing the experience of Indian troops that the Chancellor found another £1 million to secure recuperating at the Royal Pavilion Military Hospital the continuation of this legacy project. that I was very pleased to see. I also managed to attend However, I take on board that we are not talking the “Stories of Sacrifice” exhibition in Manchester, about just education or raising awareness, and that we specifically marking the contribution of Muslim ought to consider that we may be on the edge of soldiers in the First World War and delivered by the another, potentially very dangerous, shift in the global British Muslim Heritage Centre. We tried to include order. I will make some exceptions here and mention representatives, both culturally through 14-18 NOW, the speeches of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, as I said before, and through specific events, not only and the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, as well as those of nationally but in many local events around the country. my noble friends Lady Helic and Lord Balfe. As Another theme that registered with me and was politicians, we must think about the lessons of the past repeated in many speeches was learning the lessons of in relation to our current position in the world, and the war and the incompleteness of the peace. I think the future policy that that entails, all within a moral we all agree with that, even if we may not all agree on dimension. I will certainly reread those speeches, along the lessons. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has given with many others. 1621 Armistice Day: Centenary [LORDS] Armistice Day: Centenary 1622

[LORD ASHTON OF HYDE] Surprisingly, in uncertain times, the First World On a different topic, no debate on this subject would War can still unite us. It brings us together in awe and be complete without mentioning the work of the horror, respect and gratitude. This is a war which CommonwealthWarGravesCommission.Manythousands started over a century ago yet it seems almost tangible of casualties from the British Empire are buried in and within our grasp. There is no way we can make some 23,000 CWGC sites in more than 150 countries amends. We have no recourse to change history to aroundtheworld.Thesemovingandsensitivelymaintained prevent the bloodshed, nor can we ignore the scars. sites are a permanent reminder of enormous sacrifices. The facts will never change: millions of lives were In2017,thecommissionlaunchedthecentenaryinternship, ended, millions of families were torn apart, and the which was supported and funded by a Libor grant world was never the same again. from the Government. It is striking that the First World War still has the However, I firmly believe that we can tell ourselves, power to engage us, young and old alike. It lives with and future generations, that over the last four years we us daily in so many ways: in memorials, in our culture, have saluted those who served, and we have done in our family lore and in our national psyche. We now justice to their bravery. Bearing in mind the words of know—this has been mentioned by many noble Lords— the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, I am certain that, for that the Armistice was not the end of the conflict. The years to come, we will remember them. challenges of the peace negotiations, the birth of new nations and the all too brief hiatus between the wars were all still to come. Despite that, it is right that we Motion agreed. recognise that 11 November 1918 was a monumental moment in the history of the United Kingdom, her Commonwealth and her allies. House adjourned at 8.59 pm. GC 167 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 168

Grand Committee holding deposit. The confusion was highlighted at Third Reading in the House of Commons and Members Monday 5 November 2018 on the government side called for greater clarity at that point. Tenant Fees Bill We would like to see something that explains how Committee (1st Day) landlords and agents will treat a holding deposit and, if they are not returning it, their reasons for this, 3.30 pm including any information they believe to have been false or misleading. This will make it possible for Relevant document: 35th Report from the Delegated tenants to challenge if their holding deposit is withheld Powers Committee unfairly. Equally, understanding exactly why a holding The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) deposit has been withheld should help to prevent (Con): My Lords, I am always required to announce tenants applying for properties and repeatedly losing that should there be a Division in the House, we will numerous holding deposits for the same reason. immediately adjourn for 10 minutes. It seems highly The Minister is already aware of the excellent work unlikely this afternoon. done in this area by the noble Lord, Lord Bird, on creditworthiness, but until that change comes into Clauses 1 to 4 agreed. force—or is adopted by the market, as I believe it will be—people with thin files on their financial viability Clause 5: Treatment of holding deposit and little evidence to offer of regular payment of rent or council tax are not included and become the most vulnerable to the less scrupulous agents or landlords Amendment 1 in terms of holding deposits. Moved by Baroness Grender Generation Rent has recently spoken to four privately 1: Clause 5, page 4, line 32, at end insert— renting friends who each put down a £180 holding “(2) The Secretary of State must by regulations made by deposit on a property in Bristol with the letting agent statutory instrument make further provision as to the Be Streets Ahead. During the week that the holding procedure to be followed by a landlord or letting agent deposit was down, one of the tenants found that he when receiving a holding deposit, which shall include a had a brain tumour that had grown in size and had to requirement to provide notification to the relevant person in a prescribed form concerning the treatment of move back to his family for hospital treatment. The the holding deposit. remaining three tenants were unable to find another (3) Regulations under paragraph (2) must also make provision sharer to pay the deposit and rent with just a couple of as to the procedure to be followed by a landlord or letting days’ notice and had to withdraw from the tenancy. agent in relation to a decision not to repay a holding deposit The letting agent has ignored repeated requests for a on one of the grounds specified in paragraphs 7 to 11 of refund of the holding deposit on these health grounds. Schedule 2, which shall include a requirement to give Such health grounds could be included in any secondary notice in a prescribed form within a specified period, legislation, providing grounds for tenants to walk accompanied by evidence of the relevant ground. away from the tenancy without losing a holding deposit. (4) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this section is subject to annulment in pursuance of a What I have just described is a clear case for regulating resolution of either House of Parliament.” the transparency around holding deposits. If anything, this will get worse before the Bill is enacted. Generation Baroness Grender (LD): In moving Amendment 1, I Rent believes that letting agencies are worrying about shall speak also to Amendment 17. First, I thank the future admin fees and being—shall we say?—more Minister and his officials for the discussions held so assertive in their use of current rules than previously far and the time spent in advance of Committee. As to make up for any future losses they anticipate. When noble Lords know, the Bill is very welcome and the I met the Minister before the summer, I expressed sooner it is on the statute book the better, but there are concerns about the danger of the delay on one of these a few wrinkles to iron out first. The most substantive issues. I wondered if there was any way of offering an change I want to explore will come when we look at incentive—a carrot, perhaps—for the industry to adopt default fees in a later group. these measures before it came through Parliament. I Amendment 1 would allow the Secretary of State would still ask him, at this late stage, to consider that, to make regulations regarding holding deposits to given the scenario I have just described to him. Generation make the process more transparent. This is an attempt Rent is absolutely convinced, in this case, that the to adopt the welcome changes introduced by the concern about admin fees being lost at a later stage Government on Report in the Commons regarding has led to a slightly harsher judgment. transparency, or greater transparency, on default fees, Amendment 17 is of a different nature. It simply although more about that—and how we do not need poses the question, which I raised with the Minister in default fees—later. The model, however, is still useful advance, as to why tenants are prohibited, or strongly and applies in this respect to holding deposits. There discouraged, from paying multiple deposits by the cap should be a transparency requirement for landlords at one week’s rent. I am aware—and have only just and agents to set out in writing to a tenant why they managed to read most of it over the weekend, for have not returned a holding deposit. There is ongoing which many thanks in advance—that there is some confusion and a lack of clarity around the circumstances guidance about what needs to happen. But we believe in which landlords or agents may and may not return a it is very unlikely that this guidance will be pursued, GC 169 Tenant Fees Bill [LORDS] Tenant Fees Bill GC 170

[BARONESS GRENDER] will have to pay in cash is very relevant. I very much unless there is more transparency on what happens hope that, as we consider the Bill in Committee, the with holding deposits. I have read the relevant part of Minister might be able to explain the basis for one the guidance, but I still think we need something with week, as opposed to three days. a little more bite. I support the other amendments in this group. I Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op): My Lords, would like, in particular, to advance Amendments 1 as this is my first contribution to today’s proceedings, I and 17. While I understand, from meetings with officials, draw the attention of the Grand Committee to my that this is on the issue of tenants from abroad, I am registered interest as a vice-president of the Local still unable to see why we cannot have more of a level Government Association. I thank the noble Lord, playing field between the tenant putting down the Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, for the letter and the holding deposit and the landlord or agency holding draft guidance, which we received on Friday afternoon. one deposit. I would still like to explore that, and that I very much appreciated that: it was good to get the is why I am proposing these amendments. I beg to move. papers and look at them over the weekend. Amendment 1, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Grender,and to which the noble Baroness,Lady Thornhill, Lord Shipley (LD): My Lords, I shall speak to and I have added our names, raises an important issue Amendment 18. I remind your Lordships that I am a for prospective tenants. It seeks to include in the Bill vice-president of the Local Government Association. more certainty, and to provide greater fairness and I want to say at the outset that, like the Government, transparency for the person or persons looking for our aim is to make renting a home fairer and more accommodation. They would be provided with more affordable. I repeat our support for the Bill in its aim information about how their money is to be treated. I of reducing up-front costs for those seeking to rent a am not against the use of holding deposits in principle, home. We should also remember that the Bill is about but I want to see real clarity in their operation, and the protecting tenants from bad landlords, but also about amendments in this group are a positive step forward. protecting good landlords from bad tenants. Our job I am sure the Grand Committee will be repeatedly in Committee is to assess, line by line, whether the Bill told today that guidance is sufficient and we do not will achieve those objectives and whether it can be need to go down the route of regulation. But I am also improved. The amendments in my name and those of clear that this is guidance; it is not statutory and, as colleagues seek to do that. such, has no legal effect—it is just guidance.Amendment 1 Amendment 18 is about whether the figure of seven rightly places a requirement on the Secretary of State days for a holding deposit is justified. There is a to set out in regulations the procedure to be followed tendency to draft Bills with round numbers based on by a landlord or letting agent when they take a holding weeks, but such a decision requires clear justification deposit, and how the deposit is to be treated in a that the amount to be paid by a tenant, and received prescribed way so that it is clear what the prospective by a landlord, be counted in weeks rather than days. tenants should be told. The amendment would also There is a strong case for saying that the costs to the ensure that there is a clear procedure to be followed landlord are what should be reimbursed. There is where it is decided to withhold a deposit, and that evidence to suggest that such costs would be recouped evidence must be provided to the person who paid the with a three-day rent payment. I have received advice—as, deposit, setting out the ground on which it is being I guess, other noble Lords have—from Citizens Advice, withheld. The regulations are to be approved using the which supports the three-day period. Its justification negative procedure, which is the minimum of burdens is that 14% of tenants are currently charged a returnable for the Government and is the right way forward in holding deposit, at an average cost of £250. Some this case. tenants, however, are paying much more than that. Amendment 17, in the names of the noble Baronesses, A cap of three days’ rent would help to prevent that. Lady Grender and Lady Thornhill, and Amendment 22 Wealso need to recognise that a tenant’scircumstances in my name, seek to stop the practice of taking multiple or budget can change unexpectedly, and they might deposits from people. I accept that this is referenced in need to withdraw from renting a property that they the guidance, and that, as it says, a holding deposit originally and genuinely intended to take. This could creates a binding conditional contract between tenants be for reasons that prove beyond a tenant’s control. and landlord. But if, as a landlord or letting agent, you For example, there may be an unexpected failure of a accept multiple deposits, surely you must be in breach credit or reference check. This can cause severe financial of this binding conditional contract. It can be said in hardship for tenants and prevent them being able to those circumstances that there is no conditional contract access the private rented sector at all. Smaller holding whatever. deposits would still have the effect of deterring tenants from taking a large number of properties off the market, 3.45 pm while avoiding hitting tenants’ finances unnecessarily. Amendment 18 from the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, I am grateful to Citizens Advice for its briefing, from and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, addresses the which I have quoted. same issue that I have sought to address. I very much The question for the Minister is: can the Government agree with the noble Lord’s points. In principle I explain why the figure of one week appears in the Bill, support the Bill. I want to make rents even fairer for as opposed to a set number of days? As I said, it is tenants, as the Government and the noble Lord do. I very easy to talk in round numbers, but for some want to protect tenants from bad landlords, but also tenants trying to take up a tenancy, how much they landlords from bad tenants. There are some very good GC 171 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 172 landlords around and only a minority of rogues; also, I will limit my comments during the debate on this most tenants are good tenants who pay their rent and part of the Bill to areas where I feel that amendments act reasonably, but there are a minority of bad tenants either would not have the intended effect or highlight as well. I do not support bad landlords or bad tenants aspects of the Bill that should be the subject of further in any circumstances. consideration. On Amendment 1, I simply say to the My Amendments 19 and 20 state that a holding noble Baroness, Lady Grender, that tenants can, and deposit of one week is just too much, as the noble do, take things to the wire as far as landlords are Lord, Lord Shipley, mentioned. Three days is sufficient. concerned. By then, much of the work to check them When the Minister responds to the debate, I should out and make the arrangements of the tenancy has like to know why the department has gone for one already been done, at which point they can walk. week, which seems too much. The guidance says that There is no contractual bond. As I understand it, the this is an upper limit and not a recommendation. I holding fee is to secure the tenancy, rather in the same suppose that is progress. The risk is always that these way, I suppose, as asking a shopkeeper to reserve an quickly become the norm and the agreed figure. We item in their shop window. The only difficulty is that run the risk of everyone being asked to provide a the fee given rise to by part of the activity has already week’s deposit. In many cases that is a significant been incurred. amount of money. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, mentioned that. It The London Borough of Newham is not the most is not so much a question of whether a fee is charged expensive part of London to live in, but it is a borough but whether the fee is reasonable. The geometry of the with a huge private rented sector. Well over 25,000 Bill says that the fees are, in principle, unreasonable. private landlords operate there. The average monthly That is how it comes across to me and, I think, to rent is £1,400, leading to a holding deposit of £350 in many other people. In passing, I have read briefings the borough. That is a lot of money for people to find. from Shelter and Citizens Advice but I have not received These amendments would allow for a holding deposit or read a briefing by ARLA or any other body to be paid, but capping it at three days would reduce representing landlords’ interests, so my views at this the amount being paid in Newham to a deposit of juncture are entirely my own, based on my experience. approximately £138. I suggest that is a lot of money, The noble Baroness gave the example of where but a lot less than would be charged otherwise. somebody, for perfectly understandable health reasons, Amendment 21, also in my name, would prohibit a feels that they cannot go ahead so the entire consortium holding deposit being requested where the person of renters falls apart. I understand that because it has being asked for payment has not been provided with a happened to my offspring, but I ask myself whether it copy of the draft tenancy agreement. This seeks to is the landlord’s fault, or that of their agent, that address another problem where people are not given circumstances have given rise to that situation and an what they are expected to sign up to. I hope everyone inability to proceed. would agree that is not reasonable. If you are asked to pay a deposit, you should at that point at least be given Baroness Grender: In this case, it is not a question the agreement you are expected to sign up to. I look of fault. The tenants have offered to pay the cost of forward to the Minister’s response to the points raised. the reference checks but they want the remainder of the holding deposit back. I suggest that in previous The Earl of Lytton (CB): My Lords, as I have not instances, agencies might have been more flexible; I spoken at all on this Bill, perhaps it is right that I think they are getting slightly less so. I cannot talk declare my interests. I do not in principle have an about the specifics of this case, obviously, but there is objection to quite a lot of what is in it. My interest is less flexibility on holding deposits at the moment. as a private rented sector landlord, but my involvement There is no opposition from the amendments to the with the sector from when I was renting property in fact that a holding deposit is a good thing; the question London as a student to the present day spans more is whether there is clarity and transparency when it is than 50 years. For part of that, I have been involved not returned. That is the issue. professionally with the management and letting of residential property on behalf of others. The Earl of Lytton: I accept entirely what the noble I share noble Lords’ views that we should make Baroness said; I am glad that we are probably much sure not only that we do not have bad landlords but more ad idem in our approaches than I had thought that we do not encourage bad tenants. My principled from her earlier comments. objection to this Bill, if I have any, is that it does not provide that balance. It is entirely about the effects on There must be some process for identifying what is landlords, not on controlling the activities of tenants. a reasonable cost. I am not close to open-market As with much legislation, the mechanisms chosen tend lettings any more—I used to be—so I do not know to be extremely blunt instruments. We are dealing with precisely what goes into drawing up the agreement, high levels of disparity across the country, including checking references, doing credit checks or establishing some acute hot spots in London. I know that that is from some government department whether somebody the case there—one of my children is just finishing is entitled to be in the country or to rent property, but renting a property with others and has been renting there are probably costs beyond the simple act of for some time—as against, say, in the West Country, picking up the phone and checking a reference. where I also have an interest. There, it is quite difficult My fear—here I address my comments to the to find a tenant in some instances. This legislation Minister—goes back my point about legislation being needs to cover the entire spectrum. a blunt instrument. Unless things are reasonably black GC 173 Tenant Fees Bill [LORDS] Tenant Fees Bill GC 174

[THE EARL OF LYTTON] rather than into guidance. On holding deposits, there and white, administratively you are dealing with myriad is the question of when one would lose one’s holding shades of grey and trying to work out which point on deposit. I have come across circumstances in which it the spectrum is the right one. The Bill does not contain is quite difficult to determine exactly what is fair and an adjudication provision. I have pointed out, in a reasonable. When four people are sharing a property, memo to the Minister, a suggestion that I think came they will all contribute to the rather large holding originally from the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, who is deposit. If one turns out to have given misinformation not here today,which had some merit. The only provision about their circumstances, that will enable the agent to is a fine and an appeal to the First-tier Tribunal if the say quite properly that all four will be rejected as a imposition of that fine is disagreed with. There is no group. Will they lose the contribution that each has other surefire, reasonably cheap and cheerful adjudication made to the single large deposit that has been placed, provision. Were that to be put in place by a one-liner especially if they had no idea that one of the sharers and means could be found to fund that in the same was in that circumstance? Difficult decisions will have way as some other things are dealt with, a number of to be taken, on which firm guidance will be needed. these things would disappear by virtue of there being The second point concerns the period that can be that fallback. But so long as there is not, it is more like covered by a holding deposit being three days instead the law of the jungle. of seven. Again, a blanket figure of one week somewhat Turning to Amendment 18, I did a little calculation needs finessing in the guidance that will follow. A and worked out that a rent of £5,000 per calendar week in the north-east for a single person occupying month would produce a holding deposit of £493 and small premises might be £50, while for four sharers in one of £800 per calendar month would produce one Fulham a week might be £1,000. Very different sums of £78 under the three-day provision. That £78 is of money are involved in different parts of the country. much nearer the sort of figure you might get outside The point about finessing elements of the Bill in later the larger and more hotly contested metropolitan areas, guidance is well made by all. and seems quite a slight amount of money. As I have That brings me to whether guidance that ultimately said, tenants could take the matter to the wire and is not in the Bill or in secondary legislation is strong walk away knowingly having run up costs. But landlords enough. It may be that having regulations that follow might be unlikely to offer premises on the same basis through a statutory instrument would be a better way as before the Bill came into force and might simply not of dealing with the tricky issue of holding deposits, undertake to retain via a holding deposit at all, in the along with other measures that will come before us as same way as some landlords have decided that the we work our way through the Bill. I should like the whole business of holding rental deposits has got too Minister to explain the down sides to using regulation difficult, and do not hold deposits but make exhaustive in the form of a statutory instrument to cover the issue checks on the nature and attributes of their proposed rather than guidance, which, I suspect, could be open tenants. This means that the better parts of the market— to dispute and disagreement. I fully understand that the better landlords, perhaps with better properties, one clear disadvantage of going down the route of looking for the better tenants—occupy one part of the using regulations is that if we are to have secondary space and the rest are in the same difficulties as before. legislation, it needs to follow the enactment of the Bill The people who might be in difficulty are those who before we can get going on the practicalities. That really need to get into rented accommodation because would put back the moment when the very good they stand no chance of getting a mortgage. This is things in the Bill would begin, so I see that there might why this sector is so important. I worry that tenants at be a delay. However, that might be a price worth that end of the spectrum—I will not call it the bottom paying if the Bill is improved in this way. Could the end: the less well financially appointed end—will suffer Minister let us know what kind of delay we are talking more. That would be a mistake. about and whether there are other down sides to the However, I said I was not here to cause trouble. I use of secondary legislation and regulations in place have just outlined some of the things associated with of guidance, which, as I say, may be subject to a good this group of amendments that may have long-term deal of dispute? consequences contrary to those that the tablers suggest they ought to have. Apart from that, I shall not resist whatever the Minister may feel, in his wisdom, is Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con): My Lords, I appropriate here, given what I have said. declare an interest as a landlord. I think one’s week rent is fairly good and clear as a deposit. For some 4 pm years I have found that some tenants deliberately withhold their final rent so that you do not have a fair Lord Best (CB): My Lords, I declare my interests as amount money at hand to cover whatever damage set out in the register, in particular that with my wife I they have done to the property. Often, the work that am the owner of rental property managed by letting has to be done takes every bit of the deposit and more, agents. I thoroughly commended the Bill at Second although sometimes of course it does not—some tenants Reading because it is an excellent piece of work. If we keep the place beautifully, pay their rent properly and can improve it, that will be all to the good, but even if are the tenants everyone wants. However, until tenants we leave it as it is I am sure it will be an extremely are in occupation, you just do not know whether they useful legislative measure. are good or bad, and I do not think that this provision Three separate issues are at stake in the amendments in the Bill should cut the period to three days. That we have before us. Two directly concern holding deposits will leave landlords in a real quandary when people do and one is about putting material into regulations not pay their last month’s rent—they usually pay GC 175 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 176 monthly rent. It would be a worry if people did not However, it is important to state that the cap of one make the last payment. I agree with everything else that week’srent represents an innovation and an improvement other people have said. on the status quo. Currently, there is no prescribed limit. The Government’s 2017 consultation on banning Baroness Grender: I believe that the noble Baroness letting fees asked tenants for a breakdown of the fees is talking about the use of deposits at the end of a charged at their most recent letting. Similarly, it asked tenancy, whereas the focus now is on holding deposits agents for a breakdown of the fees that they charged. at the beginning of the tenancy. Can I just clarify that The responses to the consultation were not necessarily that is what she is talking about? a representative sample but they gave us a flavour of the level of holding deposits currently charged. Tenants said that they were charged a mean average of £370 as Baroness Gardner of Parkes: I accept what the a holding deposit and agents said that they charged a noble Baroness says but I think she will find that a mean average of £214. Currently, a website run by deposit is usually paid by the tenant as a deposit for Generation Rent called lettingfees.co.uk has also compared their agreement. If the landlord or agent has to make letting fees as displayed on the websites of 1,088 agents other checks as well, even a deposit of one week’s rent across the United Kingdom. It found that, of 23 agents might not be enough to cover them. It depends on how who declare that they currently charge a holding deposit, much people charge for checking proof of identity the average charged is £341. Between 1 April 2017 and and how much the deposit is. I hope that clarifies the 31 March 2018, the average monthly rent in England matter. was £675, working out at £156 per week. That is what would be charged as an average. A cap of one week’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry rent will help to improve affordability for tenants, of Housing, Communities and Local Government and while ensuring that landlords are not unfairly penalised Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con): My should the tenancy not proceed for reasons within the Lords, I thank noble Lords very much for participating tenant’s control. in the debate on this part of the Bill. I should like to Secondly, I will address Amendments 1 and 21, which speak to the range of amendments that deal with the seek to encourage greater transparency for tenants in treatment of holding deposits. how the holding deposit is treated. I appreciate the As noble Lords are no doubt aware, this is the first valuable points raised and the importance for tenants time that we are seeking to cap the level of holding of understanding how their deposit is handled and deposits—it has not been done before. I am pleased why it may not be returned. That is entirely fair. I want that we all agree that it is important to permit landlords to minimise the need for secondary legislation. The and agents to charge a holding deposit. That seems to noble Lord, Lord Best, quite reasonably pointed out be universally accepted and I thank noble Lords for the down side of bringing forward regulations. I should that. However, it seems that we still have some areas of say that it is not usual in this type of situation, despite disagreement and I will discuss each of them in turn. what the DPRRC says. I have checked this with similar, although admittedly only parallel, legislation; of course, First, Amendments 18 to 20 seek to lower the level there is no legislation that is identical. If one looks at of the cap on holding deposits from one week’s rent to the Local Government and Public Involvement in three days’ rent. I am afraid I cannot accept these Health Act 2007, the Local Government Act 2003, the amendments. A cap of three days’ rent could unfairly Planning Act 2008 and the Small Business, Enterprise penalise the landlord because the costs incurred in and Employment Act 2015—across a range of legislation, referencing a potential tenant include not only the which I am happy to share with noble Lords—it has cost of the reference check. Payment of a holding been usual for this to go in guidance rather than deposit means that a property should be taken off the regulations. The noble Lord is absolutely right that market, and therefore costs might include lost rent not only would that sacrifice a degree of flexibility, it for the landlord if the tenancy does not proceed. That would slow this down materially—by how long it is lost rent will be higher in Fulham than it will in difficult to say, given all the legislation currently going Newcastle. through, whatever the circumstances of deal versus no Where a tenancy proceeds before the deadline for deal. Noble Lords will be aware of the considerable the agreement, the tenant will receive their holding pressure on the legislative programme. deposit back in full. However, if the tenancy does not go ahead owing to the tenant’s default, it is not fair Lord Kennedy of Southwark: On the point about that the landlord or agent is penalised. We are seeking slowing the legislation down, the Bill will come into fairness here—no more, no less. We believe that tying force. Most of the provisions will be enacted on a day the maximum holding deposit that can be retained to to be determined by the Secretary of State through a a week of rent is fair compensation for the landlord’s statutory instrument. Even if the Bill goes on to the likely actual loss. However, our consumer guidance statute book, we will have to wait for a further period will encourage landlords and agents to retain only the for many of these provisions to become law, and even costs they have incurred. In relation to the guidance, I then only by regulation. The Bill will not all come into will also look at the point about a draft agreement force immediately. Some parts will but quite a lot, being seen before the agreement is entered into. That is including the provisions on deposits, will come into reasonable. In general, I am very happy for noble force at a later date. It could be weeks or months after Lords to engage in the guidance. We can organise a the Bill comes into force before anything actually briefing on it and take on board any points that they happens. We will have to have a debate in the House wish to make. on those provisions first. GC 177 Tenant Fees Bill [LORDS] Tenant Fees Bill GC 178

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: The noble Lord is Baroness Grender: May I contribute to that question right up to a point. That is the case but, obviously, it by saying that it has already been done with regard to would be extended if we are considering other things. default? Can the Minister explain the difference between It would take it into another realm if we choose to that and the holding deposit, in terms of being specific debate at length the considerable guidance, which he about transparency in regulations? will have seen. I accept that, but of course it would take longer because there would be more to debate. Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, those are I think I have dealt with the point about guidance two very separate points. On guidance versus regulations, over regulations. The other point raised quite rightly the noble Lord will be aware—not least because I have by the noble Lord, Lord Best, concerned when the just said so—that these parallel matters have been deposit is lost. That is set out in the guidance and we dealt with in guidance on many pieces of legislation, will be happy to engage with noble Lords further if under successive Governments of all colours. It is a there are further points they wish to make. judgment, but we feel that guidance is appropriate. I pay tribute to the work of the noble Baroness, The point on the default fees—although this is still Lady Grender, in this area. She fairly outlined the being discussed—is a matter of judgment, and it is the point about multiple holding deposits for landlords. judgment we have made. As the noble Baroness will be She will know my view, given previously, that this is aware, there are points in the guidance on the default not fair and I remain very much of the view that what fees—it is not all in the legislation; some of it is in the is sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander. legislation, some in the guidance. There is also a We are taking legal advice on this point because I am substantial amount about the default fees in the guidance; convinced that it would be a breach of contract for a it is not all in the legislation. landlord to take multiple deposits. He would potentially be in breach of multiple contracts except the one. We will look at the issue further and I am happy to come Baroness Grender: I thank the Minister, especially back to this point on Report. for agreeing to take a look at multiple holdings. I look forward to working with him and his team on the My noble friend Lady Gardner and the noble Earl, guidance. There is some guidance, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, spoke about the danger of the level of Lord Lytton, will be very relieved to hear that there is the deposit being curtailed excessively.The Government a suggestion in it that a tenant might produce a typo, are keen to reach a fair judgment on this. People but no suggestion that any landlord would do so. I am should be recompensed only for their losses and we using a small example of something I have spotted should not go beyond that. That is entirely fair. On the already in the drafting. I very much appreciate that the other hand, they should not be penalised where a loss guidance is a draft at the moment, and therefore I has been brought about by the actions of the tenant. thank the noble Lord for the opportunity to sit down It seeks to get that level right. and work through the guidance to make sure that Some fair points have been made. Additionally, we there is parity between tenants and landlords. There are seeking to introduce a guideline here, and it may seem to be one or two disparities that I have already become an accepted guideline in many cases, but this picked up from my brief reading of it over the weekend. is not an obligatory measure. If people want the That, in a way, is why I still want to pursue—and I am holding deposit to be lower, they can make it so. The very happy to discuss with officials and the Minister—the level of the actual deposit in Scotland is set at eight possibility of getting some regulations to introduce weeks, but there is evidence that it is not being adopted transparency in holding deposits. I look forward to as the norm. That is the upper limit and so would be those discussions, but it may be that we will need to the case here. Three days is much too low, and we pursue this further on Report, depending on those think a week fairly represents the likely loss in many discussions. With that, I beg leave to withdraw this cases. This is a considerable step forward. amendment. With that, I thank all noble Lords for engaging and for the welcome generally, given the point made Lord Kennedy of Southwark: On the guidance, I from the Front Benches by the noble Lords, Lord Shipley accept the noble Lord’s point that it is a question of and Lord Kennedy. As I say, I am happy to engage judgment and that he can point to other legislation on those specific points—on the content of the where guidance is provided for in regulations. But guidance and on the multiple deposits—ahead of Report. does he accept that if it is guidance rather than regulations, With that, I ask the noble Lords to withdraw their that guidance is weaker because it does not have amendment. statutory back-up? That is the point I am making. The Bill addresses tenants’ fees, which we all agree are a 4.15 pm problem. If the Government continue with the choice Lord Kennedy of Southwark: Could the noble Lord they are making at the moment, what they are offering address guidance again? This will come up again and people is weaker than if it was put in regulations. My again as we go through the Bill. If guidance is not by other point is that if something does not happen on regulation, what is its legal status? I suspect that it has deposit fees—perhaps in regulations—this will be totally very little; it is just guidance, which can be looked at ignored. and followed, but also ignored. My worry is that, if things are not down clearly, by regulation, they can be Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I am not accepted but also ignored, and there is very little that sure that I do accept that. It is different in nature: anyone can do about it. some things are better in guidance, because of greater GC 179 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 180 flexibility, and some things are better in regulations. I am sure we will be told that there is a risk that So while I do not accept the general proposition, I renters will use their deposit to cover their last month’s accept that some things are better in regulations, but rent without the consent or knowledge of the landlord. I do not accept that these are those things. Citizens Advice—an organisation that we all respect—has done research that found that this happened without prior agreement with the landlord in only 2% of cases. Amendment 1 withdrawn. Therefore, in 98% of cases, it did not happen. I am sure we will also be told that this higher figure of a Clause 5 agreed. six-week cap is needed to recover landlords’ costs, but again this just does not hold water. Amendment 2 The Deposit Protection Scheme did some analysis and found that over 50% of tenants get their full Moved by Lord Kennedy of Southwark deposit back and the average deposit return is 75%. 2: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause— That illustrates that the Government were right to set “Transferable deposits the level at four weeks in the first place, and it is The Secretary of State may by regulations made by disappointing that they have changed their mind. The statutory instrument amend paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 majority of renters getting most or all of their deposit to make provision which enables a relevant person, at the back shows me that the four-week limit is the right conclusion of a tenancy, to transfer all or part of a level, which would still allow for a much higher than tenancy deposit from the landlord or agent with whom average deduction to cover landlords’ legitimate costs that tenancy was held to a second landlord or agent.” while protecting renters from excessive up-front costs. I beg to move. Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, Amendment 2 seeks to enable a deposit to be transferred to another Lord Shipley: My Lords, my name is attached to landlord or letting agent. This deposit passporting Amendments 15 and 16 in this group. Amendment 2 is would be of great benefit to tenants and, as far as I a very reasonable suggestion and I hope the Minister can see, would have no detrimental effect on landlords will be able to respond positively to it. or letting agents. The system would allow for the direct In the previous group I raised how lengths of time transfer of money between landlords and properties. are decided. I understand that they are often a judgment. The consumer group Which? found that 43% of renters The same issues around the length of time arise in this have had to use a credit card, loan or overdraft, or group. We need to protect both parties—landlord and borrow from family and friends to fund a deposit—that tenant—and the question is whether six weeks’ rent is is terrible. It also found that 31% of renters had to find a reasonable sum to pay as a refundable deposit or money for a new deposit before they had been paid whether some other length of time is more justifiable. back their existing deposit. In effect, this group of There are two issues here. First, in Scotland, it is two renters would, even if only for a short time, have paid months. Scotland has that figure for a reason. Have two deposits, which is potentially a huge sum of money. theGovernmentlookedatScotland’sexperience?Secondly, That is just not fair, and the Bill does not address this it was announced in the 2017 Queen’s Speech that in at all. Renting in the private rented sector is stacked England it would be four weeks; that is, half the length against tenants in many respects and this proposal of time that applies in Scotland. Differences of this would help tenants with the difficult issue of finding kind for those on low incomes or who are short of deposits. savings can matter profoundly. I saw an article in the Daily Telegraph—not my The Government have now decided that it should usual reading, I must say—which included figures be six weeks. It is almost as if this is about splitting the from the Tenancy Deposit Scheme. The article found difference between what they said it was going to that the average deposit is £1,180, as much as £3,266 in be—four weeks—and the Scottish experience, which is parts of central London, and around £498 in Lancashire’s eight weeks. It needs more rigour than that, should Ribble Valley. These are not insignificant sums of that be the case. Again, I refer to advice from Citizens money. The system is failing tenants and it could be Advice, which I think is material. The most common improved. amount tenants pay for a refundable deposit is four Amendments 15 and 16, also in my name and those weeks or one month. Setting the cap higher than four of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley,and the noble Baroness, weeks might push up the cost to tenants. To put it Lady Thornhill, seek to put into effect what the another way, setting the cap at six weeks will help only Government originally announced: that there would 8% of tenants, according to Citizens Advice. However, be a four-week tenancy deposit cap. In this case, I a cap of four weeks would save money for almost half stand with the Prime Minister and what she announced of tenants. I do not know what consideration the last year. It is appalling that the Government have had Government have given to that but I make the point a change of heart here, and it would be useful if the that when it comes to the decision on whether it is noble Lord, Lord Bourne, could explain what has four, six or eight weeks—or perhaps five weeks, which happened over the past year and why there has been a was mooted in the House of Commons—we need to change of heart. The evidence shows that opting for be very much clearer about why six weeks has been this large deposit cap makes it harder for people to decided on. rent in the private rented sector, and makes it harder Citizens Advice’s research shows that only 2% of for them to raise money for a deposit, especially when renters use their security deposit to cover their last there is no ability to passport deposits. month’srent without the landlord’sknowledge or consent. GC 181 Tenant Fees Bill [LORDS] Tenant Fees Bill GC 182

[LORD SHIPLEY] might become apparent would not necessarily be known Has the Minister considered the advice from Citizens until right at the end of the lease. While I am pleased Advice? If it is only 2% of renters, there is an issue for to confirm from my experience that the majority of us to discover. Of course, the point is—and in defence tenants have been absolutely excellent people, the odd of landlords’ interests—if tenants withhold the last ones are feckless, overload electrical systems and do month’s rent, that can lead to a landlord having no other damage that is not immediately apparent. protection against the damage done by a tenant who is I wish there was a better way of dealing with this. I leaving if they fail to pay the last month’s rent as well. can see where the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, is coming That would be a concern for me. That is one of the from. It is a valuable thing to raise because of the reasons why the House of Commons suggested that it rigidity it creates within the tenant cohort. We should should be five weeks, not six. be doing things to make sure that there are not those What I look for in this probing amendment is the rigidities because that, in effect, is a barrier to them evidence base the Government considered on how renting property in the first place. However, I see a many weeks would be justifiable. They clearly changed number of technical difficulties with the amendment. their mind from the Queen’s Speech in 2017 when they I hope that the Minister will comment on some of them. announced that it would be four weeks. They have now come out with a figure of six weeks. I would like Lord Best: I support the amendment on transferable to understand better the Government’s reasoning for deposits. It is an absolutely commendable concept. that figure. How can people possibly find a second fat deposit when they have not had the first one back? This 4.30 pm proposal would be a really helpful move, and I hope The Earl of Lytton: My Lords, I am very pleased the Minister will take it very seriously and look at it in that these amendments have been tabled. They enable some depth. me to make one or two comments. On Amendment 2 On the question of a six-week, five-week, four-week on transferable deposits, moved by the noble Lord, or eight-week period, I was impressed by the Citizens Lord Kennedy, what he has set down might make for Advice survey, which indicated that only a very small an awkward arrangement requiring quite a raft of percentage of tenants—2%, I think—did not pay their safeguards so that landlord one can transfer a tenant’s last month’s rent, the deposit being absorbed or used deposit out of their account into the account of landlord for that purpose. However, I asked Citizens Advice two, which, as I see it, is what happens. about its survey and discovered that it was exclusively I am a practising chartered surveyor. Those involved of tenants. I suspect that the percentage might have in residential property management have to accord been different if it had been a survey of landlords or with all sorts of professional regulations, including agents. This is bad news for landlords but I am told by rules on holding clients’ money. Tenants’ deposits agents that, naughty as it is, a lot of students will not would certainly come in that category. They have to be pay the last four weeks’ rent because they fear that very punctilious about what they do and very transparent there will be a big dispute about their deposit at the about the process. I know that not every agent or, for end. Especially if the student has come from overseas that matter, landlord holding a deposit is a member of and is returning, they will have no trouble over the the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. It might deposit because they will instead have withheld their be different if they were, but that will never be likely. I last month’s rent. I suspect that landlords would always am saying that there are two parallel sets of requirements. be very hostile to the idea of a limit of just four weeks’ It will be interesting to know what discussions or rent when students behave like that. information had been obtained from others such as ARLA on this sort of transfer, how it would be documented Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, the question and how we would ensure it was seamless. of how much deposit you can pay back immediately to The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, raises a valid point. a tenant is a difficult one. Very often a lot of people For tenants to have to wait for a deposit to come back are required to check exactly what damage has been to them and to pay another deposit at the same done, particularly in cases of very heavy damage. I time—in other words, a double overhead—is awkward, have mentioned before the block where we have a right but other things lurk here. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, to manage. A person owing a large service charge has mentioned one, but there is the other question of recently had herself certified under the Mental Health whether any unpaid services and outgoings lurk there. Act. Someone has now been appointed to take over Sometimes these do not come through for some particular and the four flats in her name are being handed over. period. Noble Lords will know from dealing with One flat in the basement was being used illegally as a utility companies and this sort of thing, including brothel and the people who vacated it smashed the some of the cut-price ones, which seem extremely whole place to pieces—the windows, the walls and difficult to deal with at times—no names mentioned pretty well everything else, as far as I understand. here, though—that it can be quite difficult to make The legitimate tenant is perfectly entitled to think sure that you have closure on the amount of money that they should have as much of their deposit back as for which a tenant might be responsible. There is an possible, but where someone does what they did in issue relating to the period to which the amount might that flat—as yet, we have not seen the other three that apply. That might depend on the circumstances, such have been recovered from illegal lettings—it is quite as whether it was a furnished or unfurnished letting, worrying if you do not have any deposit to go towards or fully equipped as well as being furnished. Obviously, repairing the damage. Therefore, the situation is more the amount of damage that can be done and what complicated than people realise. GC 183 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 184

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I thank the as I have indicated, in some cases it may be appropriate noble Lords who have participated in this debate. In to go higher and not going higher may make it difficult particular, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for for people with pets, for example, to get tenancies. I moving Amendment 9 and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, would put it no higher than that. I remind noble Lords for speaking to his Amendment 10. that Scotland has capped tenancy deposits at no more than eight weeks’ rent and there is no evidence to I have listened carefully to the concerns about the suggest that deposits have risen to meet that cap. It is level of the deposit cap and I understand them. However, an upper limit, not the norm. there is a balance that must be struck between providing tenants with greater affordability and ensuring that We will also use the guidance to encourage landlords landlords have adequate financial security for their to consider on a case-by-case basis when to take a assets—points just touched on by my noble friend tenancy deposit and the appropriate level of that Lady Gardner. For that reason, I cannot agree that the deposit. It is also important to remember that unlike cap should be lowered to four weeks’ rent. As we have letting fees, which are non-refundable, the deposit is heard, a cap at four weeks’ rent might encourage retained by the landlord only in instances where the tenants to forgo their final month’s rent. Even the tenant breaches their obligations under,or in connection CAB statistics—which, as the noble Lord, Lord Best, with, the tenancy. The deposit is the tenant’s money said quite fairly was a survey of tenants—put the and landlords must provide appropriate evidence where number of tenants doing so at 2%. Therefore, there they believe that they are entitled to retain any of that is still an issue there. I remind noble Lords that this is deposit. I therefore suggest that it is the appropriate setting an upper limit; it is not setting a norm. Indeed, level. there is no evidence to suggest that the eight-week More broadly, on the fair points made by the noble period in Scotland has become very much the norm; it Lord, Lord Kennedy, particularly about passporting, is regarded as an upper limit. I will shortly come to I want to ensure that tenancy deposits work for both reasons why the upper limit of six weeks might be landlords and tenants. That is why we established needed, and I take on board the very fair points that recently a working group to look at the merits of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, made about the need innovative and more affordable approaches to tenancy for that. deposits. This includes deposit passporting, where a deposit can be transferred from one tenancy to another, The Housing, Communities and Local Government as proposed by Amendment 2. Members of the working Select Committee also recognised the risk when it group include landlord and tenant representatives and looked at this issue. It is worth mentioning that final the three tenancy deposit protection schemes. So far, month’s deposit. Using data from the tenancy deposit the group has met three times and is due to report its protection scheme, our best estimate is that if deposits findings next spring. I will happily provide noble Lords were capped at six weeks’ rent, approximately 1.4% of with updates as things progress.That is all the information landlords taking deposits would see a median loss of we have at the moment but if I can provide more £89 per tenancy that they would not have been subjected information ahead of Report, I will do so. to otherwise. These costs would be borne by landlords— those who currently require tenants to pay more than Many things in relation to passporting still need to six week’s rent in deposit—at the end of the tenancy be considered. The key concern here is ensuring that when the deposit does not fully cover their claim. landlords can still recover any damages at the end of a tenancy. A great deal of technical complexity would In contrast, a cap of four weeks’ or one month’s need to be examined, both on the percentage that is rent would lead to a loss for 5.2% of landlords of passported and on when, and how, liability for providing £200 on average. That is based on deposit scheme a tenant with the relevant prescribed information about figures. As a result, landlords may be less willing to how their deposit is protected should be passed from absorb increased costs because of the number and size one landlord to another. I am sure noble Lords will of deposits affected by a four-week cap. Tenants could agree that we need to do this properly. As I said, I am therefore see greater increases in rent, which would keen to ensure that we do it but the report from the decrease the overall net benefit of the legislation. Also, relevant working group is not due until the spring. as I have touched on previously, lowering the deposit However, I will write to noble Lords to provide more cap to four weeks’ rent could hurt pet owners, those information about the working group ahead of Report, who live abroad and those with a poorer financial in so far as we have more information. I will be happy history. These groups often pay a higher than average to provide noble Lords with an update once the working deposit to provide landlords with the assurance they group has reported its findings in the spring. In the need, so they are worth bearing in mind. light of those assurances, I hope that the amendments I believe that the cap of six weeks’ rent provides the in this group will not be pressed. additional financial security and flexibility that landlords need, which is integral to retaining investment and 4.45 pm supply in the private rented sector and benefits tenants. Lord Shipley: My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Like other noble Lords, I recognise that good landlords Minister two questions on points I raised earlier. The and good tenants are in the great majority, but the cap first is that it is not clear why the Government used the seeks to preserve that balance. I reiterate that the cap figure of four weeks in the Queen’s Speech last year of six weeks’ rent is an upper limit. Data from the and what has caused them to change their own decision. tenancy deposit protection scheme informs us that Secondly, can the Minister explain the consideration most landlords request a deposit of around four to that has been given to the scrutiny by the Housing, five weeks’ rent. That is in the great bulk of cases but, Communities and Local Government Committee? GC 185 Tenant Fees Bill [LORDS] Tenant Fees Bill GC 186

[LORD SHIPLEY] sorts of issues around deposit protection and to disturb Bob Blackman MP drew attention to the committee’s the existing relationship may well be dangerous. However, recommendation that the length of deposits should be I will ensure that the message is passed back to the set at five weeks to avoid the risk that a tenant may group so that it can consider it if appropriate. refuse to pay the last month’s rent if the limit was set at four weeks. That would avoid some of the financial Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I want to come back hardship for tenants that could result from the six-week to deposits. I accept that it is not easy to sort out, but a limit. Have the Government considered in full the tenant in the private sector who is seeking to move will pre-legislative scrutiny undertaken in the other place have paid, even on the average figures, £1,200 and will in coming to their decision that it should remain at need another deposit of a similar value. As I mentioned, six weeks despite the clear advice that it should be five Which? found that 43% of people were using credit weeks? cards or loans to get this extra deposit. A lot of people in the private rented sector will be on lower incomes. Lord Kennedy of Southwark: On a similar point, we If they end up borrowing money on their credit card understand that in the Queen’s Speech the Government to fund the deposit because they cannot get their mentioned a period of four weeks. At one time it previous deposit back, that is not a good place for seems to have been a manifesto commitment. I am anyone to be. A credit card is an expensive way of sure that we will be told that it was not, but I would be borrowing money for a short period. We need somehow interested to find out. I understand that the period of to address that issue and I wonder what the Minister four weeks was announced in the Queen’s Speech, but can say about it. what has happened? The Bill says six weeks. It would help to know the Government’s thinking on that. Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, the noble Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: I thank noble Lords Lord will know that I have a lot of sympathy with that for those points. The consideration was around the point, not only in this context but for people being notion of an upper limit, not a norm. As I say, there forced to use credit cards or loans where that is not are difficult cases where a four-week limit may not be appropriate. I could not agree more with him on that, appropriate. I have outlined some of those and we have so it is important that we get this right. That is what to think about the consequences for tenants. It was that we are seeking to do. He will be aware, just from the which motivated the reconsideration. discussion today, that there are different views even in On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, the Committee about the levels. We are seeking to get about Bob Blackman in the Housing, Communities this right, to reimburse the loan and to provide for and Local Government Committee, it is true that passporting on a sensible basis, but we have to ensure different periods were talked about—of four, five, six that we are being fair to the tenants and the landlords and eight weeks, as we have already rehearsed—but it while, at the same time, not killing the tenancy market, is important to note that this was not pressed to a vote which is an important part of the offer to people. in the other place. We have considered the element of However, I take his general point, which is entirely flexibility. We are not mandating that it has to be eight fair. weeks; that is far from the case. The evidence from Scotland is that it has not gone to eight weeks; rather Lord Kennedy of Southwark: In the Queen’s Speech, it has not really budged. However, it gives flexibility, the cap was announced as four weeks. The Government and that has influenced us. We cover in the guidance have looked at this and taken soundings and they say the point that we do not expect it to reflect anything that four to five weeks are needed, so why have they other than the loss on the deposit. picked six weeks?

The Earl of Lytton: My Lords, in connection with Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, it is good what was mentioned earlier about tenants who do not to see the noble Lord being so supportive of the have a particularly good track record or who come Queen’s Speech, on this occasion at least. I suspect a from abroad, perhaps I may pick up on one point. One little bit of mischief in his new-found support for the of the bones of contention is that the tenant pays a Conservative Government. Nevertheless,on the particular not insubstantial deposit and it is held by and on point, as I have tried to address, we have looked at the behalf of the landlord. Is there not an opportunity to level and, on consideration, decided that we would have a third-party deposit holder who, in effect, would establish an upper limit but not a norm. That is the hold the money and provide a guarantee of the tenant’s thinking behind the more mature reflection. I absolutely performance so that it does not become a bone of accept that this is a question of getting it right. contention for students, those from abroad and people with no track record? Could we break that particular logjam so that it is not seen as the landlord accruing a Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I thank the noble sum of money and hanging on to it as a sort of Lord for that. I will leave it there and seek to withdraw financial bludgeon? Could this be defused in some the amendment, but it is fair to say that I am likely to way? Perhaps the working group could look into the bring the issue back on Report, as I think that six weeks possibility of something along these lines. is too much—I will be looking at four or five weeks and hoping that we can persuade the Government on Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I am happy this. Until then, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. to pass that on to the working group, but one has to be careful what one wishes for. As we know, there are all Amendment 2 withdrawn. GC 187 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 188

put a requirement on the Secretary of State to advise Amendment 3 representative bodies, affected groups, local authorities and other bodies that the Secretary of State decides Moved by Lord Kennedy of Southwark are appropriate. That would include bodies such as 3: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause— Citizens Advice that provide advice services to people. “Duty to provide tenants and prospective tenants with information In the private rented sector, it can be difficult to (1) Within one month of this Act being passed the Secretary reach the people who rent, because of the often transient of State must— nature of the sector—people probably move around (a) prepare guidance to assist tenants and prospective more than in other sectors. There will be groups of tenants to understand the effect of this Act, and tenants who need support. Some, of course, will be (b) publish the information on a website maintained on very savvy about their rights and responsibilities, but their behalf. there are other groups of more vulnerable tenants. (2) The Secretary of State must take all reasonable steps to We must make sure that smaller agents and smaller provide a copy of the information to any bodies appearing landlords—some may have only one or two properties— to the Secretary of State to represent the interests of— are fully aware of the changes and how they will affect (a) landlords and letting agents in England; them. It is particularly important that tenants are (b) tenants in England; made aware since they are the people who will alert (c) local housing authorities; local authorities to the identities of landlords or letting and other bodies the Secretary of State considers appropriate. agents who are not observing the law,charging prohibitive payments or doing other things that would be banned (3) The information must, in particular,include the following— by this legislation. To ensure compliance—I know the (a) the date on which the provisions in this Act come Government want to see compliance with their own into effect in England; legislation particularly—we need a clear communication (b) information about prohibited payments under the strategy. The Bill will change the law and introduce Act; new criminal offences, with relevant penalties and (c) information about permitted payments under the consequences, so it is important that people are fully Act; aware of the changes. We do not believe it needs to be (d) information about where tenants can access help onerous, but we need something to ensure that it is and advice about the Act; properly communicated to everyone concerned. I beg and any other information that the Secretary of State deems to move. would assist tenants and prospective tenants to understand the effect of this Act. Lord Shipley: My Lords, I will briefly express my (4) Every landlord and letting agent must— support for the amendment. It seems to be extremely (a) provide all tenants and prospective tenants with helpful. Perhaps there could be a discussion about information about the provisions in the Act relevant to them (which must, in particular, include the how it would be implemented. I say this because it is information mentioned in subsection (3)(a) and (b)), one thing for Parliament to pass legislation, but it is (b) publish such of the information as it considers to be another for it to be actually understood in the wider relevant to its tenants and prospective tenants on its world. For tenants and landlords to understand their website (which must, in particular, include the rights and responsibilities, it is very important that the information mentioned in subsection (3)(a) and (b)). publicity is good. A lot of it can be standard wording. (5) Subsection (4) applies from the day on which this Act It does not have to be originated by every individual. comes into force. It may need to be amended by individuals, but generally (6) In making arrangements for the purposes of providing it can be the same. That leads me to remind the information under subsection (4) a landlord or Minister of my view that the £500,000 allocated for prospective landlord must— enforcement—perhaps we will come to that in the next (a) have regard to the likely needs and characteristics, group—is a welcome sum, but probably not enough. in respect of the provision of information, of Providing the necessary resource for this to work persons to whom the information in question is to seems to be very important. Ultimately, this should be be provided, and self-financing. Ensuring that there is the right level (b) consider whether, having regard to those needs and of publicity, particularly for tenants, is particularly characteristics, it is appropriate to provide any of important. the information to any of those persons otherwise thaninthewayinwhichitwouldnormallybeprovided.” The Earl of Lytton: My Lords, the first part of this Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, Amendment 3 amendment is, to put it bluntly, a no-brainer. It is seeks to shine some light on the whole process for the perfectly right and proper that there should be clear benefit of landlords, letting agents and tenants. It and comprehensive information. If I have anyreservations, would place a duty on the Secretary of State to take all one is a very small item in proposed new subsection (4)(b), reasonable steps to ensure that the new procedures which refers to a website. Given that a significant coming into force are properly communicated to proportion of landlords are individuals with perhaps everybody concerned. I am sure that we would all only one or two properties, they may not have a website. agree that proper communication is vital to make Perhaps a tweak of the wording might be needed there. legislation effective and ensure that it works. It is On proposed new subsection (6)(a) and (b), there is imperative that the introduction of the ban is clearly a duty on the landlord or prospective landlord to, communicated to ensure that landlords and letting “have regard to the likely needs and characteristics, in respect of agents, as well as tenants, are fully aware of the the provision of information, of persons to whom the information changes and that this happens immediately. We would in question is to be provided”. GC 189 Tenant Fees Bill [LORDS] Tenant Fees Bill GC 190

[THE EARL OF LYTTON] Once again, I state that we are happy to engage on that It goes on to refer to the provision of that information, if it is helpful to noble Lords. I hope noble Lords agree “otherwise than in the way in which it would normally be provided”. that the guidance provides important information on I scratch my head a bit about this, because I was the points suggested by the amendment, including the beginning to try to work out what I, as a landlord in date on which the provisions will come into force, the middle of Sussex, might need to acquaint people information about what is prohibited and permitted, with. It seemed to me that one characteristic might be and information about where tenants can access help a physical disability and another might be linguistic—those and advice. two immediately came to mind. I would be interested We intend to share this guidance with tenants and if the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, could actually spell tenant groups in advance of the legislation coming out what he intends from those two provisions. It into force and as soon as possible after Royal Assent. might be a bit of a hostage to fortune in either We will seek to ensure that tenants, landlords and providing something unnecessary or having to try to agents are aware of this guidance, including through second-guess what the particular characteristics and online publication and promotion through our media the method of delivery might need to be in any given channels, and by using smaller groups, as the noble instance. That said, in an area where people come Earl mentioned. I am grateful to the noble Lord, from an Asian heritage background, I can see no Lord Best, for mentioning Zoopla and Rightmove; objection to publishing it in languages other than Purplebricks is another one. Those and others are English. That would be perfectly possible. However, to groups we can engage with to make sure that we get do it as a generality would be difficult. Therefore, the relevant message across. We will also encourage putting this in guidance and providing for what the landlords and agents to make tenants aware of the Secretary of State will do with it might be a hazardous guidance,using our existing relationships with stakeholder operation. groups to do so. The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, asked 5 pm about seeking to enforce the provisions of tenancies Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, as the through this legislation. That is not something we are Minister knows, I am very concerned that people are seeking to do here. It is a contractual matter and letting their flats for short lets, which is strictly prohibited short-term tenancy agreements are, I think, beyond under the terms of their tenancy. Is there anywhere in the scope of the Bill. However, I do know of the noble the Bill that this matter could be rectified, perhaps by Baroness’s concern and, as she is aware, I engage with placing an obligation on the tenant to inform people the short-term tenancy association on a frequent basis that it is not a legal letting or by the new tenant to see how we can carry things forward. themselves confirming that what they are taking on is I think that deals with the points made by noble not a legal letting? There is a big loophole in the law Lords and will, I hope, allay concerns ahead of Report. here. On that basis, I respectfully ask the noble Lord if he will withdraw the amendment. Lord Best: I would like to offer a word of support for the intent behind this proposed new clause. Perhaps the best organisations to get the message out to tenants Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I thank the Minister and prospective tenants are the new websites—or not for that. I hope he can help us with a couple of points. so new anymore—such as Zoopla and Rightmove. So He said earlier that in many cases there are good many people looking for somewhere to rent now do so tenants and good landlords, all acting reasonably and online. Those agencies have the power to reach nearly responsibly. In that sense, the Bill is not for them. We everybody with the important information contained are dealing with the rogue landlords or bad tenants, as in this provision. well as people who are uninformed. If you are a landlord with lots of properties you will probably have Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I thank all systems in place to ensure that you are informed noble Lords who participated in the discussion on properly. I worry that the landlord of one or two Amendment 3. I will seek to deal with the points properties will—intentionally or unintentionally—not made. The first and entirely reasonable point raised notice the legislation and will seek to carry on charging was from the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and was their tenants prohibitive payments and generally abuse echoed by other noble Lords. I am committed to them. What are we doing to ensure that there can be ensuring that tenants, landlords and agents understand no doubt that these people know their responsibilities their rights and responsibilities under the legislation. in terms of the law? That is what my amendment was As the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, rightly said, it is not trying to do: to ensure the people are clear on that. just a question of the law being passed; it needs to be What is going to happen when the Act becomes law so the case that people understand the rights and obligations that we can be absolutely confident that people know that follow therefrom. this? We disagree on the guidance. It is not statutory; it That is why my officials have been working hard is just guidance, and does not have the backing of the with key stakeholder groups to produce comprehensive law. What are we going to do to ensure that those consumer guidance to support implementation. However, landlords are in no doubt? Just leaving it to the CAB I do not agree that it is necessary to mandate that in and other groups to inform people is not good enough the Bill, as we have discussed and as we will look at —we all know that these groups are under huge pressure, again. I have shared draft versions of the guidance for as are local authority departments. That is my worry: tenants, landlords and agents with noble Lords, and the small tenants and small landlords. Can the Minister I hope they found them informative and detailed. help us on that? GC 191 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 192

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I am very authority is designated as the lead authority and, after happy to. On the point made by the noble Lord—in taking account of the money received from fines or relation not just to responsibilities, in fairness, but to other work is still out of pocket, what local authority the rights of tenants and landlords—this is to get the would want its council tax payers to subsidise everybody full message across. We want to get the full impact of else? We need a clause that covers that situation. the law across to tenants, landlords and agents, as the Amendment 5 would put a new clause in the Bill noble Lord, Lord Shipley, said. To pick up the point that would require the Secretary of State to, about small agents and landlords who are in a different “make an assessment of the resources available to … enforcement position, we have to act through the landlord associations, authorities; and … the lead enforcement authority”. the portals and the means outlined by the noble Lord, Proposed new subsection (2) sets out what the report Lord Best. As I said, I am happy to engage on the “must consider”. Finally, proposed new subsection (3) guidance ahead of Report. If noble Lords think they says: have other ways that we could be getting this message … across, which is in everybody’s interests, I am more “The Secretary of State must lay a report before each than happy to look at those. House of Parliament”. It is essential that the Government provide additional funding to local authorities for enforcing this legislation, Lord Kennedy of Southwark: Obviously, at this stage otherwise they will be letting down the very people—the I will withdraw the amendment. I just want to address private sector tenants—they say they want to help. the points made by the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. I take his point about proposed new subsection (4)(b) but we Trading standards departments in local authorities are moving into more of a digital age and it is important will be responsible for enforcing the ban. The noble to have that. Equally, proposed new subsection (6) Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, will be well aware of may not be worded very well but it was my attempt to the evidence given to the Bill Committee considering ensure that in certain parts of the country people get this legislation in the other place. There have been cuts the information in a way that they are able to digest of over 50% to trading standards staff in some areas. and can be fully informed of their rights. Perhaps I Many areas are experiencing increasing levels of demand need to look at that when I look at this issue. I cannot and legislation that they are expected to enforce. It is say that I am happy with the Minister’s response but getting more and more difficult to do so. Indeed, I will leave it there for now. We may return to this on trading standards departments are struggling to enforce Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. existing regulations designed to protect renters. Analysis by Generation Rent found that, in 2017, 12% of letting agents did not list their fees on websites as required by Amendment 3 withdrawn. the Consumer Rights Act 2015. They were clearly in Clauses 6 and 7 agreed. breach of the legislation but they were still doing that. It is important to keep in mind that local authorities have also gained additional responsibilities to enforce Amendment 4 against rogue landlords and agents from the dreaded Moved by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Housing and Planning Act 2016. While I obviously welcome the Government’s announcement of a fund 4: After Clause 7, insert the following new Clause— of £500,000 for year one to cover the up-front costs of “Enforcement costs implementation and awareness raising, one-off seed (1) The Secretary of State shall reimburse— funding is unlikely to cover the full costs and burdens (a) a lead enforcement authority, where this is not the placed on local authorities. That is not a new thing; we Secretary of State, for any additional costs incurred have discussed this many times in Grand Committee by the authority in the exercise of its duties under section 23 or section 24 of this Act, and and in the Chamber. (b) an enforcement authority for any additional costs The Government’s approach seems to be that any incurred by that authority in the exercise of its penalties will support enforcement functions. That duties under section 1 or section 2 of, and Schedule would potentially penalise councils that have raised 2 to, this Act. awareness of the ban with agents. They are less likely (2) In this section “additional costs incurred” means costs to benefit from collecting penalties than where people incurred minus funding received by an enforcement have not kept up with their obligations. That is no way authority from— to fund and deliver such an important piece of legislation. (a) fines; and I beg to move. (b) the Secretary of State.” Lord Shipley: My Lords, I am interested to hear the Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords,Amendments 4 Minister’s response to this. Of the two amendments, and 5 in my name are concerned with enforcement in Amendment 5 is more important because it would respect of the costs involved and how they are covered, provide an evidence base without which it would be and require a report to be laid before Parliament difficult to know whether the £500,000 that the within 12 months of the Bill’s provisions coming into Government are allocating will be sufficient. Amendment 4 force. The Bill is a bit light—to say the least—on these would be difficult to implement. How does one understand matters, which are extremely important. or agree what a reasonable cost is? You then have to Amendment 4 would require the Secretary of State consider things such as overhead recoupment and so to reimburse the lead authority for any additional on. What is a reasonable sum of money for an enforcement costs incurred in taking on these extra duties. If a local authority to receive? I see a big problem in making a GC 193 Tenant Fees Bill [LORDS] Tenant Fees Bill GC 194

[LORD SHIPLEY] education and implementation of the legislation. I agree fair assessment of what the additional sums that cannot with what the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, said in the be recovered through fines or via the Secretary of earlier debate—that ideally this measure should be State might be. self-funding. If one looks at page 19 of the Explanatory However, the broader issue that the noble Lord, Notes, one finds the following: Lord Kennedy, has introduced seems important: is “The Government estimate that local authorities will incur a enough money being provided up-front to enable new burden in respect of enforcement costs in year one of the enforcement authorities to get enforcement properly policy only and it estimates this to be no more than £500,000. The established? We have read some evidence in the press enforcement of the provisions contained in this Bill by enforcement authorities is intended to be fiscally neutral from year two since recently that, despite legislation passed in Parliament, enforcement authorities may retain the proceeds of any financial local authorities have not always been able to provide penalties for the purposes of any of its enforcement functions the level of enforcement that might be deemed necessary. relating to the private rented sector under this Bill or any other I am talking in particular about rogue landlords. legislation”. I hope the Minister can respond to us on this. I That is basically where the Government are coming repeat my observation that we need Amendment 5, from on resources. and I hope the Government will be willing to come Further, we are introducing the lead enforcement back with something on Report that gives some life to authority, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, it. Amendment 4 might be the consequence of having to provide guidance and assistance to local authorities evidence under Amendment 5. However,for the moment, in undertaking proactive enforcement. Wehave committed I hope that the Government will be able to indicate funding of up £300,000 per annum to support the lead how they respond to funding enforcement overall. enforcement authority in its duties, and we have based the funding model on that of the National Trading 5.15 pm Standards Estate Agency Team, but we will keep it Lord Young of Cookham (Con): My Lords, the under review. co-pilot is in charge of this leg of the legislative journey, Statutory guidance issued by the lead enforcement so there might be some turbulence. authority or the Secretary of State will cover matters There are two amendments that consider the resources to be taken into account by enforcement authorities in available for the enforcement of the ban and I would determining the level of the penalty in any given case. like to take them together. I am grateful to the noble We have been engaging with local authorities to get Lord, Lord Shipley, for his gentle dismantling of the this right, and my noble friend Lord Bourne has arguments that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, put shared a draft version with noble Lords and has forward for Amendment 4. I recognise the pressure on placed a copy in the Library. More generally, the lead the resources available to local authorities but we do enforcement authority will be primarily responsible not think that a provision that essentially provides a for monitoring enforcement of the ban and ensuring blank cheque to local authorities is the right approach. that local authorities have the guidance and support It would be a very unusual arrangement, and essentially that they need. one-sided, as the Secretary of State would bear all the Turning to the proposed new clause which deals losses and the local authority would keep all the gains. with reporting requirements, Clause 23 already requires We believe that allowing local authorities to retain the lead enforcement authority to report to the Secretary money from financial penalties would be a significant of State on the ban. This will include updates on any funding stream for future enforcement, and the developments that might be relevant to enforcement Government are providing some pump-priming funding of the Bill or to relevant letting agency legislation, for the initial period. There might be a role for hypo- including those that might seek to undermine the aim thecated grants but I do not believe that this is one and enforcement of the legislation. It could also include of them. resources, mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Shipley Financial penalties of up to £30,000 that can be and Lord Kennedy. The Government will work closely retained by local authorities were first introduced in with the lead enforcement authority and key stakeholders April 2017 under the Housing and Planning Act 2016, representing tenant, landlord and agent groups to and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, monitor the operation and effectiveness of the ban. will welcome at least one measure under that Act Against those assurances, I hope the noble Lord will that has found favour with him. We are aware that feel able to withdraw his amendment. local authorities already benefit from the proceeds of financial penalties issued under that legislation. Liverpool, Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, although for example, has issued 42 civil penalties and has an answer was given earlier by the other Minister, why recovered the majority of them; Torbay Council has in a Written Answer to me did the Minister say that used the revenue from civil penalties to fund an extra the Government are unwilling to consider allowing enforcement officer for its housing team; and Newham local authorities to license these short lets? Short lets and Camden have also issued and recovered a number are damaging—badly—every bit of accommodation of civil penalties. in the housing market in London, in particular, and in However, we appreciate that this model depends on the rest of the country, which can be taken over, local circumstances and that it can take time to embed illegally, against the contracts. Why are the Government within existing frameworks of enforcement. That is unwilling to allow local authorities to charge a fee to why, as I said, we are committing £500,000 of additional register and check that they are in order? In that case, funding in year one of the fee ban policy to support would that not be a far better answer than losing all GC 195 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 196 the accommodation that we are losing now? Why is it “Well, they would say that, wouldn’t they?”. Local not appropriate to bring it into the Bill under the government often says that the Government do not proposed new clause? provide enough funding for various things. How was this figure arrived at? Where did it come from? Did the Lord Young of Cookham: As my noble friend the Government use some formula or methodology, or Minister said a few moments ago, the Bill covers was is just a case of, “Oh, we’ve got a spare half a assured shortholds and other lettings. It does not million knocking around and we can make it available”? cover the sorts of lettings that concern my noble I do not know. I want to understand how that figure friend Lady Gardner and which are offered by Airbnb came about. Again, I am sure that local government and other agencies. My noble friend has raised an will say that it is nowhere near enough, as it would say issue that has been the subject of many exchanges in about other things. I am thinking particularly of the Questions. Our answer is that we believe that local Homelessness Reduction Act, where there is the risk authorities have enough powers to take action where a of a very good piece of legislation being affected by nuisance is caused by these activities. In many cases, the amount of money provided by the Government. it is up to the manging agents to enforce the terms of the lease. Lord Young of Cookham: I hope the noble Lord As I have said on many occasions in the Chamber, will accept that, unlike other occasions when new many leases specifically preclude the letting of a property responsibilities have been imposed on local authorities, for periods of less than six months, and it is up to the in this case we are actually offering to help them with managing agents of the block to ensure that the provisions some pump-priming finance before the revenue stream of the lease are met. Again, I say to my noble friend comes on board. I hope he will accept that this is a that I have quoted from the action taken by one welcome step forward from other initiatives taken by managing agent when they discovered that a flat in the Governments of all complexions, where local authorities block for which they were the managing agent was have been asked to do things with no resources at all being advertised on Airbnb; that immediately stopped and no opportunity of self-funding downstream. I can the letting of that flat and any other flats in that block. only repeat what I read out a few moments ago: the So the short answer—I fear it was a long one—is that Government estimate that local authorities will incur we believe that powers are already available without a new burden in respect of enforcement of £500,000. giving local authorities the additional powers that my I will make detailed inquiries to see if we can shed noble friend has asked for. more light on exactly where that sum came from and will write to the noble Lord, with copies to other Lord Kennedy of Southwark: Before I withdraw my Members who have shown an interest. I will do that amendment, can the Minister tell me something about before Report. the amount of money provided? On the face of it, £500,000 seems a lot of money but how many councils Lord Best: Will the proceeds of the financial penalties is that actually for? I do not know off the top of my be hypothecated for more enforcement? Trading standards head, but I think it is for at least a few hundred of officers work very hard in very difficult circumstances, them. What sum will each council get? Will it be after all the cuts they have had to face. The danger is £2,000 or £3,000 each? When it is broken down like that, that the fines come in but go into the big pot of local it could be quite a small sum of money in terms of an government finance and are used—poor old local overall council budget. authorities have many other calls on their time and money. Lord Young of Cookham: I am happy to give the Lord Young of Cookham: About 152 trading standards noble Lord the assurance that he seeks that the money offices could potentially be eligible for this. It would will be reimbursed to the relevant section of the local be wrong to assume that £500,000 would be divided authority that enforces this legislation and other related among them so that they each get a small sum. There legislation dealing with rogue landlords. are other models for providing the initial help. For example, a team from the department could go out to Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I thank the Minister help the trading standards agencies set up the necessary for his response, and all other noble Lords who spoke skills and training to take forward the measure after in the debate. At this stage, I am happy to withdraw year one. At the moment, we are discussing with the the amendment. LGA exactly how best to spend the £500,000. Although one option would be to divide it up, that is not the Amendment 4 withdrawn. only option; others are being explored. Before the Bill becomes an Act, we hope to find a way forward on Amendment 5 not moved. how the money should be spent. Clause 8: Financial penalties Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I thank the Minister for that answer. I accept that the money may not Amendment 6 necessarily be divided up. I am just trying to understand Moved by Baroness Grender the number of authorities and the amount of money available. Looking at things like that, it is not a huge 6: Clause 8, page 6, line 11, at end insert “, or sum of money at all. “(d) the relevant person has made an application to the First-tier Tribunal under section 15 (recovery by The Government think that this will be funded by relevant person of amount paid) and has recovered fines and other fees, so it will be self-financing in that all or part of the amount or (as the case may be) the sense. I am conscious that local government will say, aggregate amount referred to in that section.” GC 197 Tenant Fees Bill [LORDS] Tenant Fees Bill GC 198

Baroness Grender: My Lords, the purpose of “A tenant has two options apart from simply saying to the Amendment 6 is to allow tenants seeking repayment agent, ‘This fee is unfair’. The tenant can say, ‘If you don’t retract of illegal fees at the First-tier Tribunal to also be it, we’ll report you to the council’, or, ‘We’ll take you to the first-tier tribunal’”.—[Official Report, Commons, Tenant Fees entitled to compensation, thereby encouraging tenants Bill Committee, 7/6/18; col. 49.] to go to tribunals as the enforcement agencies are so stretched, as we have just been discussing. I also see it Those are the two options, in essence. The tenant can as a deterrent to bad practice. It is in response to the go to the council’s trading standards or to another Government’sclaim that entitling tenants to compensation authority and rely on officers to carry out an investigation, would create a double penalty on the landlord. However, or take it upon themselves to make an application to we are advised by the lawyers at Generation Rent that the First-tier Tribunal. We need that back-up process, tenants could still qualify for compensation under but all a tenant can get through it is the fee back, so we contract law. Trading standards will be responsible for think there is merit in awarding a higher form of enforcing the ban but, as we have discussed, it is not compensation to a tenant who goes through the process. well funded and is already struggling to enforce existing That would create more of a deterrent for an operator regulations on letting agents. who charges an illegal fee. As we have just been discussing, it would potentially save the council work Research in 2017 by Generation Rent found that and it would give tenants something back for the effort 12% of lettings agents did not list their fees on their they have put in. Entitling tenants to compensation website, as required by the Consumer Rights Act. The when recovering illegal fees through the courts in Chartered Trading Standards Institute put it bluntly addition to local authority fines would strengthen the to the Commons Public Bill Committee in written enforceability of the Bill while being completely in line evidence: with similar consumer industries, including the letting “With a cut of more than 50% of skilled officers in just over agent industry itself. I beg to move. 7 years the burden on local trading standards services is unsustainable and this additional duty will simply will not be prioritised universally across the country”. Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords,Amendment 6, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, would If that is the case, we need to encourage tenants or amend Clause 8, which is concerned with financial consumers to be their own enforcers, to recover illegal penalties. The amendment adds paragraph (d) to fees and be compensated for doing it. I think we are all subsection (4), which lists those situations where a realistic about how many tenants, with their busy lives, financial penalty may not be imposed. The amendment, will actually do this. But offering the incentive to which I am happy to support, stops an enforcement tenants and knowing it is there as a threat must be the authority imposing a fine where the relevant person right balance of carrot and stick to ensure that this has recovered funds through an application to the excellent Bill is properly enforced despite the cuts to First-tier Tribunal. It seems to address an omission on trading standards. the part of the Government and it is a sensible proposal. We recognise that the Government argue that the Also in this group are Amendments 7 and 8, which tenant can recover the illegal fees through the First-tier I think would strengthen the Bill. Amendment 7 provides Tribunal and the major stick is the fine imposed by the for the First-tier Tribunal to order the landlord or local authority on the landlord or agent. However, the lettings agent to pay up to three times the sum of the approach that I am proposing is not uncommon and prohibited payment that they improperly collected. would reflect the difference between private civil recourse There is no provision in the Bill for any form of and public regulation enforcement; for example, deposit compensation when a prohibited fee is charged and protection law shows that penalties are not unusual in that in my opinion is a serious omission on the part of this context. If a deposit is not protected, the tenant is the Government. We believe that compensation will entitled to compensation at three times the deposit’s undoubtedly be appropriate in many cases given the value. But ARLA has the Propertymark sanctions likelihood that charging prohibited payments will cause policy, which fines members who fail to use proper tenants significant financial hardship. client money protection in the treatment of client Compensation would also act as an incentive for money, including tenancy deposits. The amendment is tenants to recover illegal fees where the enforcement an attempt to create a similar system. authority is unable to enforce the law and would be appropriate recognition of the time and effort that it 5.30 pm takes for an individual to enforce their rights through If we treat tenants truly as consumers and look at the courts. Compensation is an established principle in other industries, can we really argue against this? the consumer industry where one party is entrusted Train operators can be fined by the Government, as with another person’s money, in addition to enforcement well as having to pay compensation to passengers penalties where rules or laws have been breached. This affected by delays and cancellations. Travel agents are includes all sorts of bodies such as train operators, fined by ABTA for breaches and required to refund travel agents and lawyers. The idea of being paid holidaymakers, who can also receive compensation. compensation where the consumer has not been well The Solicitors Regulation Authority can fine a legal served is well understood, and getting the money back practice but individuals are still entitled to compensation is important, as the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, where they have suffered a loss as the result of a civil said. liability. The same applies to the Bar Standards Board, My amendment is consistent with other legislation which regulates barristers—goodness help it. When governing the private rented sector. I do not accept Dan Wilson Craw from Generation Rent gave evidence that compensation should be sacrificed in support of to the Public Bill Committee, he said: the Government’s aim that enforcement will be funded GC 199 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 200 exclusively through fines. Amendment 8 seeks to add a for the tenant to receive further compensation in addition further restriction on the termination of the tenancy. I to repayment of the money owed. To add compensation believe this is a very important addition that brings a risks penalising agents and landlords multiple times further element of fairness. for the same breach, which we do not believe is fair; Section 21 notices have undoubtedly been abused in for example, it would not be right to ask a landlord the past, to the considerable detriment of tenants. It who has been fined up to £5,000 for an initial breach would be a complete travesty if, having stood up for to also pay three times the amount of a prohibited yourself and your rights, and having taken action to payment to a tenant. This would in effect be two recover the money that was improperly taken from financial penalties for the same breach. The deterrent you, you are then punished, in effect, and served with effect, mentioned by the noble Baroness in her opening a Section 21 notice to leave your property.This amendment remarks, would of course be secured by the fines seeks to ensure that that does not happen and that the under the Act. victim—here, the tenant—cannot be treated in that It is also worth noting that Clause 17 already provides way. I do not see why we would allow rogue landlords further protection to tenants by preventing landlords or letting agents to behave in this way. My amendment recovering their property via the Section 21 procedure seeks to ensure that they cannot, by implementing that in the Housing Act 1988 until they have repaid any six-month cushion. unlawfully charged fees. This approach is in line with legislation that already applies; for example, where the Lord Deben (Con): I wonder whether my noble friend How to Rent guide has not been provided or where will address the point raised by the noble Baroness a landlord has not secured the required licence for a when she referred to the number of letting agents that house in multiple occupation. Further, Clause 4 ensures did not obey the law on their websites. I have found that any clause in the tenancy seeking to charge a that in many areas—including modern slavery, an prohibited fee is not binding on the tenant. issue I am particularly interested in—a number of We do not consider that further provision is needed people just do not obey the law. It seems to me that it along the lines proposed by Amendment 8. For example, would be odd if we left it to the local trading standards it is not fair if a landlord who appeals against the officers. What is the arrangement? If you find such a imposition of a financial penalty, and this appeal is case, who in government is supposed to enforce it? upheld, is then restricted from using the no-fault eviction This also is a piece that might be dealt with in this process for six months. Under the noble Lord’s legislation. If it is true—I assume that it is—that 17% amendment, this would be the case—although that of letting agents do not even obey the law of having to may not be what he intended. We firmly believe that say what their fees are, that is outrageous. our existing approach restricting a landlord’s ability to Lord Young of Cookham: I am grateful to all noble serve a Section 21 notice strikes the right balance and Lords who have taken part in this debate. The Bill offers a serious deterrent to non-compliance. I hope proposes a number of enforcement measures that the noble Lord will not move his amendment. offer a strong deterrent to irresponsible agents and I suspect the short answer to the questions raised by landlords. It also makes provisions to enable tenants my noble friend Lord Deben is: the trading standards and other relevant people to recover unlawfully charged officer. I would like to write to my noble friend setting fees, if other attempts have failed, by going to the out in more detail what is being proposed, under both First-tier Tribunal, which will order reimbursement to this and existing legislation, to prevent misleading the tenant of money that should not have been paid. information appearing on websites and tenants being Of course,tenants should get back any unlawful payments misled. in full, whether that is direct from the landlord or agent, via their enforcement authority or through an Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I was a order of the First-tier Tribunal. However, in certain little surprised at the Minister’s response on the question instances, we think it is also appropriate for the landlord of compensation. We would have a situation where a or agent to be issued with a financial penalty, as well tenant is illegally charged a prohibited payment—it is as ensuring that the tenant receives their money back. against the law, and they have been wronged. The This is to deter future non-compliance. Minister says that, in those cases, compensation would Amendment 6 prevents an enforcement authority not be appropriate. I do not understand that. Surely, imposing a financial penalty under Section 12 if the as we have highlighted in other areas, it is totally tenant has got their money back. We think that giving reasonable that, if somebody has done someone a a power to impose financial penalties for breaches of wrong—they have committed an offence, overcharged the legislation is an important tool for enforcement somebody—that person should be able to seek some authorities. Therefore, we cannot accept Amendment 6. sort of redress and have compensation paid to them. However, the enforcement guidance will stress that I do not see how the Minister can say that would not enforcement authorities should take account of the be fair. landlord’s and agent’s conduct and past behaviour when considering the level of financial penalty to Lord Young of Cookham: The noble Lord has a charge, if any. This includes whether the landlord or choice. He can have either a situation where the tenant agent has reimbursed the tenant quickly when asked gets the compensation and there are no financial penalties to do so. imposed under the Bill, or the situation we suggest Turning to Amendments 7 and 8, while we think it where the tenant gets his money back, the fine is is right that agents and landlords should be issued imposed and the money goes to the local authority. with a financial penalty, we do not think it is appropriate What the noble Lord wants is for the landlord, in GC 201 Tenant Fees Bill [LORDS] Tenant Fees Bill GC 202

[LORD YOUNG OF COOKHAM] even for a limited period—they should not be able to effect, to be penalised twice: first by paying compensation be evicted the next day through a notice being served. up to three times, and secondly by paying a fine up to I thank the Minister for his offer. £5,000. The Government’s position is that you can have one or the other, but doing both is not fair. Baroness Grender: I thank the Minister for his olive branch, which I happily and heartily accept. I look Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I think the Minister forward to at least trying to work in this area. I beg will find that, in other areas, people can be fined and leave to withdraw the amendment. be required to pay compensation as well, so I do not see the logic. Clearly, if it is an issue of amounts, that Amendment 6 withdrawn. can be looked at. We are not going to agree on this, clearly. The principle that you can be fined and be Clause 8 agreed. required to pay compensation clearly is the case elsewhere. It is very unfair that the tenant—the victim, the person Clauses 9 to 14 agreed. who has been out of pocket, ripped off and treated badly—should be thankful just to get their money Clause 15: Recovery by relevant person of amount paid back. It does not seem to be a very good place. Clearly, we are not going to agree on that at this stage. Amendment 7 not moved.

Baroness Grender: I thank the Minister for his Clause 15 agreed. response, kind of. I gave four examples where, in industry, the Government do this already. It happens. Clause 16 agreed. I believe there is some merit in exploring it a bit further. If it is about the drafting, and one rules out the other, I am happy to look at how it is applied to the Clause 17: Restriction on terminating tenancy four existing examples where people are compensated and organisations are fined that I gave to the Committee. Amendment 8 not moved. I would be very happy to look at that and work with officials before Report. Clause 17 agreed.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark: On my Amendment 8, Clauses 18 to 20 agreed. if somebody has gone to a tribunal and the landlord has won then fair enough, they should be protected, Clause 21: Enforcement of client money protection but I am trying to get to an example where someone schemes for property agents has enforced their rights. This poor tenant cannot get compensation but they get their money back, then the Debate on whether Clause 21 should stand part of the next day a Section 21 notice is served on them. That is Bill. the issue I want to deal with. It is really unfair for the tenants in these situations—proved right in a court of law, then given a notice to leave the next day. Without Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab): My Lords, this, that could still happen. the Committee will recall that, as a result of pressure in this House and following the recommendations of a working group chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer Lord Young of Cookham: The defect in the noble of Childs Hill, and me, the Government announced Lord’s amendment is that, if the landlord won the on 28 March last year that they would make it mandatory appeal, he would still be banned. As I said, that may for all letting agents who handle client money to have not have been the noble Lord’s intention, but it is what client money protection in place. the amendment would do. Client money protection involves a separate,ring-fenced I say in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, bank account, which, should a letting agent become that I detect in the Committee enthusiasm for the insolvent, is not available to other creditors but belongs two-track approach to penalties, for both the tenant to the tenant, if it is rent paid in advance, or to the and the local authorities recouping fines. That message landlord, if it is rent due. Insurance is also part of has come through. Without giving any commitment, I client money protection. Making client money protection will have another look at this, in view of the strength mandatory was widely welcomed—I remember of feeling on the matter. I am happy to accept the congratulating the Minister at Question Time on the noble Baroness’s offer. day he announced it. It safeguards both tenants and landlords, either from a business going bust or from 5.45 pm an agent making off with the funds. Lord Kennedy of Southwark: Clearly, this must be a This was essential because, without this change in result of my poor drafting, as that was not my intention, the law, only 60% of agents had such cover. Clients of which I hope I have explained. I am worried about the the remaining 40%, perhaps unknown to them, were people who have been proved right in a court of law. I vulnerable to their money disappearing through poor thank the Minister for his comments, but I hope that business behaviour or fraud. Indeed, as the noble this can be looked at, as there is an issue. Someone Lord, Lord Palmer, will recall, our working group who has enforced their rights should have some protection, heard heart-rending stories of tenants left without GC 203 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 204 money and unable to move on to another property it is, understandably, not willing to take and which, and of landlords losing serious money—sometimes I suggest, the Government should not be asking it their only source of income. to take. Furthermore, in business terms, there was—and The current RICS CMP scheme limits are £50,000 still is—the lack of a level playing field because the per claim and £5.3 million annual aggregate. Over the good agents, particularly those in the professional past five years, RICS has paid out residential client organisations such as RICS or ARLA, which require money loss claims totalling £49,000—less than £50,000 client money protection, are at a competitive disadvantage, over a five-year period. That includes some tenant given the cost of coverage,in relation to the fly-by-nighters, deposits because occasionally these are included. It is if I might call them that. These are the letting agents £50,000 in total over five years and it is now being which risk other people’s money by lowering costs asked to insure for £200 million. In fact, the highest because they do not have client money protection. We single claim was under £13,000. were therefore delighted with the Government’s This is evidence that RICS more than adequately announcement that CMP would be made compulsory. safeguards the public while ensuring that businesses However, the Government are making a mess of it, are not adversely burdened by unnecessary CMP insurance I am afraid. They have somehow managed to devise a costs, which of course are always finally passed on to scheme whereby the two major providers of CMP—the consumers. Its scheme works for landlords and tenants world-renowned and respected Royal Institute of because all client money held by RICS firms must be Chartered Surveyors, or RICS, and Propertymark, the held in a separate,ring-fenced client account. Furthermore, rebranded Association of Residential Letting Agents, deposits are already protected under the Housing Act or ARLA—will soon no longer be able to offer CMP 2004. Rents are covered under client money protection to residential letting agents under their schemes, and and deposits are protected quite separately under the will therefore have to withdraw from the market because 2004 Act. the Government are insisting that their current £5 million However, the department is currently demanding coverage is increased to £200 million, with no cap on that these deposits should be double insured by requiring liability. So instead of bringing the 40% of letting them, in addition to the Housing Act requirement, to agents that do not have client money protection up to be covered by the CMP scheme. That makes absolutely the standard of the 60% that do—as we planned and no sense and I do not know whether it is actually hoped for and as the House supported—they are driving legitimate. Certainly concerns have been raised by the schemes of the 60% out of business. You could not insurers as regards whether any such money should be make it up. double insured. Insurers have also indicated that there is not the capacity in the market to provide suitable The Minister knows all about this as he kindly met cover for the largest agents that include tenancy deposits. RICS, ARLA and me last week, but his department has failed to amend the scheme requirements to prevent The figures I have quoted do not come just from this catastrophe which is about to happen. I should RICS. The other professional body for letting agents, add that the requirements that are leading to this ARLA, has its own scheme which has been running catastrophe were added by his department only in the since January 2008. Over the past 10 years it has paid last few weeks. They are not the criteria on which the out just over £2 million to landlords and tenants, and impact assessment was based, they were not discussed that includes one year with 10 agents going bust where in advance with the major players in the field, and they those claims involved pay-outs of just over £1.3 million. were not included in anything which went through The other nine years saw pay-outs of under £1 million your Lordships’ House. in total. Under that scheme, the average number of claims a year is four. The average loss from claims over I will start with RICS—a standard-setter for 150 years, the last 10 years was less than £70,000. The last large with a proud record of driving up standards and claim of over £100,000 was in 2013, some five years protecting clients, and with a charter which reflects its ago. No major corporate agency has ever claimed on role in promoting the public interest. Because of the the scheme, yet we were told when we had a meeting ludicrous demands for recognition of a CMP scheme, with the Minister that the new requirements were it will close to residential agents a scheme which has being added to protect the really big agents. Because run problem-free for over three decades and which, of the big schemes, which have never claimed, all the together with Propertymark, covers all the big residential schemes will have to increase their cover from £5 million letting agents. to £200 million. That is completely disproportionate, RICS’s independent UK and Ireland regulatory it is not based on evidence, and it is unrealistic. Why board, chaired by Antony Townsend—who used to should ARLA’s cover, if its anticipated annual scheme run the Solicitors Regulation Authority; he knows a loss, based on nearly two decades of experience, is thing or two about this—discussed this on Thursday around a quarter of a million pounds, be almost following the meeting with the Minister, and concluded 100 times that? Also, why is this very last-minute that RICS could not accept a situation in which the change being made in the department’s approach? public interest functions of the institution, which Until 16 October,ARLA had been given the impression upholds standards of almost 130,000 professionals that CMP schemes would not have to cover tenants’ and 11,000 regulated firms, were put at risk because it deposits already protected in insurance-backed tenancy was exposed to unlimited liability.It would be inconsistent deposit protection schemes,which of course are themselves with its charter obligations. By opening itself up to authorised by the Government under the Housing Act potentially unlimited liabilities, no matter how rare, 2004. It quite accepts that unprotected deposits are to RICS would put its public interest duty at risk—a risk be covered by CMP, meaning that no tenant should be GC 205 Tenant Fees Bill [LORDS] Tenant Fees Bill GC 206

[BARONESS HAYTER OF KENTISH TOWN] a bank account, of which only up to £85,000 is protected, left at risk. That is what was agreed with officials on any sensible landlord would obviously keep their funds 14 August and it was the basis on which ARLA in the letting agent’s bank account as there would be submitted its application for approval on 12 September, unlimited protection. That would be the effect, but it as had been discussed ever since this was agreed last should not be possible for landlords to offload their year. On 16 October the department suddenly said risks in this way, putting it on to the letting agents’ that it now expected CMP schemes to cover deposits that CMP provider just because the Government fixed one are already protected. This represents double insurance cap at £85,000 for bank accounts but at £200 million of the deposits because they are covered by both TDP for letting agents. Letting agents are not meant to be and CMP,something that has certainly been questioned banks, and landlords should not use them as such. It is by ARLA’s insurer, Gallagher. I am happy to share the landlord’s responsibility to husband their own funds. that letter with the Minister if that would help. The Government are seeking to build not a gold-plated In addition to the 3,000 member firms with less but a platinum-plated scheme based on no evidence. than £1 million in their client accounts, Propertymark As a result of this, the current providers of CMP will has a little over 200 firms with more than that amount— likely depart the scene for residential letting agents the bigger ones that we were told we had to cover. and landlords will be tempted to use agents as a Most have less than £1 million in their client accounts, very safe bank. Therefore, we need to return to the so insuring for £200 million sounds a little unnecessary. pre-14 August position, which required CMP schemes The 200 firms that have more than £1 million have a to cover everything other than protected deposits, combined total of £889 million in client funds, with because they are protected anyway by the TDP scheme £500 million of that coming from the top 16 businesses. with a limit. It simply has to be possible for CMP schemes to limit their liability at a certain level and, if 6 pm necessary, with the Government guaranteeing money To be able to pay out “without any deduction”, over and above that. Propertymark would have to increase its insurance Without these changes, what started as a way of cover from over £5 million this year to over £200 million protecting tenants and landlords—those who were not —a 4,000% increase—and all for a change of law already with a letting agent with protection—from which was not aimed at it. The whole point of what we letting agents going bust or running off with rents will were trying to achieve was to bring agents not covered undermine the pre-existing CMP protection, which by CMP into a CMP scheme; it was not to break up has worked for the regulated part of the market for the schemes already running. The others were always many a year. That is why Clause 21 should not stand in our sights. part of the Bill. It makes minor amendments to do Irrespective of the massive cost increase that would with client money protection but until we get the CMP be placed on agents if this coverage were obtained, scheme in place in a way that works, we should make rendering the regulatory impact assessment on the no changes to the status quo. regulations null and void, there is in any case probably not enough capacity in the insurance market to achieve Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD): My Lords, I pay the cover. The impact may well be that the large tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for her businesses will simply not be able to obtain CMP imaginative use of Clause 21 in the Bill. She explained cover and will be forced to cease trading, to alter their the story behind the amendment; I know that the business models so that they split into much smaller Minister, who was so involved and helpful in getting agencies or to operate unlawfully. These are the ones client money protection on to the statute book, will that have not presented any problem and have already understand it. been covered, and they were never the intended subject I will not repeat the wonderful arguments made by of the amendment that we first submitted. the noble Baroness but the principle behind this has At the moment, the CMP regulations require an always been that client money protection was operated agent’s CMP scheme to cover the maximum amount voluntarily by 60% of the market. It was the 40% who in their client account and the scheme to pay out did not cover themselves voluntarily that we had to “without any deduction”. Therefore, as organisations, deal with. Against the background of what has happened they would have to include the collapse of the scheme in the department in putting this situation into practice, and bankruptcy of the company. This will not do. The it seems that we are covering the 40% but are in grave present proposals for CMP require unlimited cover, danger of losing the 60%, who will not want the which no other area requires, and certainly not banks. situation outlined by the noble Baroness. The Financial Services Compensation Scheme limits There is a problem because large firms and protection of deposits in bank accounts to £85,000. organisations deal with large sums of money going There is a slight exception if you are selling and through their books, in their bank accounts and in buying a house, in which case it goes up to £1 million their clients’accounts. Therefore, such firms are exposed. for the short period when you have more than £85,000 That is how the department has come to the figure of in the bank. Nobody is worried about this but only £200 million for cover; it feels that the firms need to be £85,000 in a person’sbank account is protected. However, insured to cover that exposure. With respect, the I think that that is accepted by everyone as a proportionate department has not looked at the real world, where the amount to ensure public protection. large firms and organisations described by the noble So the figure is £85,000 if your money is in the bank Baroness reduce their exposure by placing funds in but in this case it is millions. The result would obviously custodial TDP schemes, thus reducing the amount be a classic moral hazard. Rather than holding rents in that they hold. So, you do not need insurance to such GC 207 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 208 levels because, to use an analogy, the firms will do if you get yourself into a position in which you lay too what the betting industry does in laying off bets and heavy a weight of insurance when it is not necessary. what the reinsurance industry does in laying off their I have a long history of defending the consumer, but I insurance risks on others in the industry. do not see how consumers are better protected by Therefore, in very simple terms, without repeating excluding from the market the two organisations that anything she said, I support the noble Baroness, Lady have so far dominated it—if that is the right word. Hayter. I hope the department will look into not The last thing I want to say is this: I have often having a vast £200 million cover because it is not spent time trying to encourage ARLA to become a needed. It will frighten off the 60% who already cover more professional body. One of the successes of recent themselves voluntarily under client money protection. years has been precisely that, and we ought to be There is no need for this large sum. Everything else in encouraged by what ARLA has done. It would therefore the Bill is right; we have made great strides in client be a great pity if, on this occasion, we ignored its money protection. The noble Baroness mentioned the experience, which has come about through its own status quo; we should let sleeping dogs lie so that we change from its history to today, or indeed the 150 years’ can get CMP operating properly and not frighten off experience of RICS. large firms. They may be unduly frightened but they can take action by putting money in custodial funds. Lord Best: I want to offer my support to the noble I support the amendment. Baroness, Lady Hayter, who has done so well in getting us to this point with CMP. It is so disappointing for Lord Deben: I wonder if I can help the noble Lord. those of us who have supported her efforts to hear of I know he always worries when I get up and say that I this last-minute significant hitch. The reason that a am going to be helpful, but on this occasion I might number of us were very supportive of CMP being be. I remind the Committee that I am chairman of introduced was not because of the 60% but because of the organisation that represents independent financial the 40%. It was not just to make sure that the 40% had advisers and those who deal with wealth management. some insurance so that landlords’ and tenants’ money Therefore, I understand a lot about the parallel was properly protected. It was rather more sinister circumstances referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady than that: it was to drive out that part of the 40% that Hayter, when she pointed out the protection accorded just would not be able to get insurance, because when to bank accounts and the different sorts of protection their accounts were viewed by those providing insurance, in the financial services industry. What I really want to they would be told, “I’m sorry, we’re not insuring say is that I hope my noble friend will think very you”. This was, and I hope still will be, a way of carefully about this because we have seen the huge weeding out the fly-by-night agents who set up shop difficulty that people now have—even the most excellent and who we do not need in this business. of firms—in getting proper protection from the insurance industry. 6.15 pm The noble Baroness made an important point about being proportionate as to what the real risks are. I Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, first, I want to make a point about the dangers of not being thank all noble Lords who participated in the debate, proportionate. This is an industry of great importance and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and the noble and I am absolutely excited by the Bill because it does Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, for all the work a whole lot of things that need to be done. However, they have done and continue to do in this area. As they we have to be very careful about importing into it will be aware—indeed, the noble Baroness was fair those things that will result in unexpected and unwanted and set it out—I became aware of this problem only in additional results. the middle of last week. Since then we have met and, I think, moved things forward. I repeat that we will go I am not sure that civil servants are always as expert away and look at this and carry on our engagement in these detailed aspects of insurance as those who with the noble Baroness, ARLA and RICS. That deal with them daily. All the advice is that there really remains the position. I want to reassure myself that we is no need to protect any more than the kind of are being fair to all tenants over the protection of protection that ARLA and RICS already provide. You deposits. If that is the case, I will be reassured, but I do not really need that advice: the fact is that they have want to go away and make sure that it is. run the system very effectively up to now. I remind my noble friend that the party he represents is always very To reassure the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs much in favour of free enterprise and people getting Hill, in so far as money is held in custodial deposits, together to organise things on their own. Would it these will fall outside this cap and will not need therefore not be a good idea for us to be very careful insurance. I think I made this point when we met. We about not taking that advice? are taking this forward. In particular, we will not We know that the 40% that do not belong to these require the double deposits. That is entirely wrong. I organisations are, by nature, either not very careful or can give that reassurance: we will not need cover for painfully close to the edge of the law. There is a real that. range. But I remind the Committee of the last speaker, who rightly said that we do not want to enfranchise Lord Palmer of Childs Hill: The Minister is emphasising the 40% by disfranchising the 60%. That does not the point that if the money held by these large seem a sensible answer. I hope my noble friend will organisations is in custodial deposits, there is no need take the advice of those who have had to deal with for insurance. Therefore, this large sum is not necessary. these things in other areas: that it is extremely dangerous I thank him. GC 209 Tenant Fees Bill [LORDS] Tenant Fees Bill GC 210

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords,I am absolutely This is not sufficient. The problem is that if we have clear on that. The cap that we are talking about will only guidance, the likely result will be that too many not be appropriate in that regard. As I say, I have only people will decide not to implement it. In Amendment 9, just become aware of this. It is a significant issue. I am I seek to change “guidance” to, very happy to engage with the noble Baroness, who “guidance, in the form of regulations made by statutory instrument”. probably understands these things better than anyone Proposed new subsection (2C) makes clear that else in your Lordships’ House, and to carry on the there should be: discussion with RICS. I hope on that basis she will “A statutory instrument containing regulations under this withdraw her opposition to Clause 21 standing part. section … subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament”. Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: I thank the Minister. In other words, it gives power to Parliament to ensure I think he has said more than in our meeting. In our that the regulations are strong enough. The noble meeting, he said that he would look at the double Lord, Lord Deben, said a while ago that there are insurance. Today he has gone a little further and stated people who do not obey the law. He is right, but I that this CMP scheme will not have to cover already would add that there are even more people who do not protected deposits. That is a large part of it, for which obey guidance. In this situation, we need to stiffen up the organisations will be grateful. The other part—the our legislation. I fear that, if we end up passing the level of coverage—is still important. I know that the Bill, the Act will be difficult to implement because too Government are well aware of this. I know this is very many people will decide that this is enforced only by different from the space industry but a similar discussion guidance that is not strong enough. I am very keen to happened on the Space Industry Bill, recognising that hear from the Minister what the problem is in converting unlimited issues simply cannot be insured, and the what is currently proposed guidance into formal regulation Government agreed to move on that. giving Parliament the power to agree, or not, with what is proposed. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s For the moment, I will not divide the Committee on response to that question, which to me is very important. whether the clause should stand part of the Bill. I beg to move. However,a tiny word of warning: client money protection is mentioned in the Bill, which means that amendments will be in scope when it comes to Report. On that The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel) basis, I shall not oppose Clause 21 standing part of (Lab): If Amendment 9 is agreed, I cannot call the Bill. Amendment 10 because of pre-emption.

Clause 21 agreed. Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords,Amendment 9, Clause 22 agreed. moved by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, as we have heard from him, seeks to put the guidance issued by the enforcement authority on a statutory footing. That Clause 23: General duties of the lead enforcement is a very good idea. It gives clarity and certainty, which authority is missing from what is proposed by the Government at present: guidance not backed up by anything at all. It is proposed to make this guidance statutory via the Amendment 9 negative resolution procedure, which I think is right in Moved by Lord Shipley these circumstances. 9: Clause 23, page 15, line 22, leave out subsection (2) and Amendment 10 in my name proposes to do exactly insert— the same thing in slightly different wording. As I said “(2A) If the lead enforcement authority is the Secretary of on a previous group, I was pleased to receive the State, it is the duty of the lead enforcement authority to guidance on Friday, before Committee stage. I am issue guidance, in the form of regulations made by statutory aware that the Government have consulted various instrument, to enforcement authorities about the exercise stakeholders over the past few months. It would be of their functions under this Act. good to understand, when the Minister responds to (2B) If subsection (2A) does not apply, it is the duty of the this debate, what the status of the guidance we already lead enforcement authority to draft guidance to enforcement authorities about the exercise of their functions under have is. Does he expect it to change much more when it this Act, which the Secretary of State must lay before is finally agreed, or does he think it is just about there? Parliament in the form of regulations made by statutory Is further consultation expected? I very much share instrument. the view of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory (2C) A statutory instrument containing regulations under Reform Committee. Making draft guidance available this section is subject to annulment in pursuance of a is good, but that is insufficient to remove the need for resolution of either House of Parliament.” guidance to be made subject to parliamentary scrutiny under the negative procedure. It is important that both Lord Shipley: My Lords, this grouping is extremely Houses look at this stuff in detail and are able to important. The intentions behind my Amendment 9 discuss it and say what they believe is right and wrong. and the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, We have come back to the guidance a number of Lord Kennedy, are broadly similar. The Bill says, in times—we will keep coming back to this—and I just the subsection that I seek to delete: do not accept that guidance not backed up by regulation “It is the duty of the lead enforcement authority to issue is sufficient. There is always this risk that it has no guidance to enforcement authorities about the exercise of their legal status. It can just be ignored, as well as adhered functions under this Act”. to. I look forward to the Minister’s comments on this. GC 211 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 212

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I thank the and Regulatory Reform Committee.It has raised concerns noble Lords who have participated in the consideration about legislation which is to be supported only through of enforcement authorities and the guidance, which guidance. Paragraph 55 of the report makes it very we have supported so far. I am very grateful for their clear that the committee thinks that the guidance engagement on this part of the Bill. I am also grateful should be subject to parliamentary scrutiny—in this to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform case with the negative procedure. Committee for its general scrutiny of the Bill. I hope that there might be an opportunity for us to I acknowledge the views expressed by the noble Lords, talk in a little more detail on this issue. My fear is that Lord Kennedy and Lord Shipley, on the enforcement this Parliament will pass legislation which is not guidance, but I maintain that it is not necessary, and implemented fully because it is not strong enough to indeed somewhat unusual, for such guidance to be be enforced on the ground. I do not think that guidance subject to parliamentary scrutiny.I have already outlined on its own is sufficient and I would like there to be some parallel examples where guidance has been given much firmer regulation. However, I will read Hansard just as guidance on legislation under successive very carefully tomorrow and will possibly hope to Governments in this century—the Local Government meet the Minister before Report to see whether there Act 2003, the Planning Act 2008 and the Small Business, is any way in which we can build a framework that is Enterprise and Employment Act 2015, to cite just stronger than simply guidance. I beg leave to withdraw three. There are many instances in statute and I argue the amendment. that this is commonplace. However, to give the reassurance that the noble Amendment 9 withdrawn. Lord, Lord Kennedy, in particular asked about, we are still engaging with key stakeholders and enforcement Amendment 10 not moved. authorities, as we have been doing throughout. Like the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, he very fairly talked Clause 23 agreed. about my having shared drafts of the guidance ahead of Committee, and indeed I have offered—and offer Clause 24 agreed. again—to engage with noble Lords ahead of Report on the content of the guidance. We are working on it with key stakeholders, representative organisations and 6.30 pm enforcement authorities, and, as I said, I am very willing to engage with noble Lords on it too. Amendment 11 I have indicated that there would be a delay if we were to seek to put this in regulations, and I think it Moved by Lord Kennedy of Southwark would also sacrifice a degree of flexibility. However, 11: After Clause 24, insert the following new Clause— on the basis of what I hope noble Lords will agree is “Report on operation of Tenant Fees Act my openness in offering not just to share the guidance, (1) The Secretary of State shall within a period of 12 months which we have done, but to share in engagement on from the date of commencement of this Act and annually the guidance, I hope that at this stage the noble Lord for the four years thereafter lay before Parliament a will feel able to withdraw his amendment. report on the operation of this Act, setting out— (a) the number of breaches of sections 1 and 2; Lord Kennedy of Southwark: Does the noble Lord (b) the number and amounts of financial penalties accept that such guidance, compared with regulations, levied by enforcement authorities; and has less force behind it? (c) the number of criminal prosecutions commenced Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: The noble Lord has and concluded in each 12-month period. made that point before. I think it is a case of what (2) The report must also consider the impact of the provisions is appropriate. I absolutely agree that some things are of this Act on the private rental sector including— appropriately put in regulations, but others are (a) market competitiveness, appropriately put in guidance. We have both: we have (b) market transparency, and some things in the legislation and others in guidance. (c) vulnerable tenants, in particular in relation to how I would argue that what we have in the guidance is local authorities are able to discharge their duties to appropriate for the way that we are proceeding. prevent homelessness.”

Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I accept that the noble Lord Kennedyof Southwark: My Lords,Amendment 11 Lord believes that this is appropriate. However, my seeks to put a new clause into the Bill. If agreed, it point is that you can have both but what the Government would require the Secretary of State to report to have chosen is of less value compared with having it Parliament within 12 months, then every four years in regulations. after that. The report would provide valuable information Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I suspect on the number of breaches, financial penalties levied that we disagree on this point. There are many occasions and criminal prosecutions in each 12-month period. It when I agree with the noble Lord but on this point I must also consider the points as listed in proposed new do not. subsection (2), which are important when looking at the impact of the Act on the sector. I suspect that the Lord Shipley: My Lords,I have found what the Minister amendment will not be greeted with great enthusiasm has said helpful but I do not feel that it is satisfactory. from the Minister, but can he tell the Committee I am concerned by the report of the Delegated Powers whether any of the information referred to in the GC 213 Tenant Fees Bill [LORDS] Tenant Fees Bill GC 214

[LORD KENNEDY OF SOUTHWARK] make renting fairer. We will keep all of these issues amendment would be collected by the department under review. With those assurances, I hope that the anyway? I may have a few more questions for the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment. Minister after listening to his response. I beg to move. Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I thank the noble Lord for that response and I am pleased with some of Lord Young of Cookham: I am grateful to the noble the commitments that he has made. At this point I am Lord, Lord Kennedy, for his amendment. I assure him happy to withdraw the amendment. that we plan to monitor the implementation of the Bill through continual engagement with key stakeholder Amendment 11 withdrawn. groups, represented landlords, agents, tenants and those in housing need, as well as through wider intelligence from agencies such as the lead enforcement authority Clause 25: Meaning of “letting agent” and related and trading standards,which will enforce the requirements expressions of the Bill. I have no difficulty with the objectives of the noble Amendment 12 Lord’s proposed new clause. However, bits of it are impractical. We will not be able to identify all the Moved by Baroness Barran breaches of Clauses 1 and 2 as set out in proposed new 12: Clause 25, page 17, line 12, at end insert— paragraph (a) because we will be encouraging tenants “(3A) A person is not a letting agent for the purposes of this to challenge their landlords and agency with a view to Act if— rectifying breaches if they have been charged prohibited (a) that person only accepts instructions from a landlord fees. The enforcement authorities would not be involved who occupies the housing as their only or principal if the breach were resolved between the tenant and the home; and landlord, so it would not be possible to record every (b) the tenant pays no rent or occupation charge to the time that this happens. landlord save that the tenant pays a contribution to However, owing to the reporting requirements set the utility costs of the housing; and out in the Bill under Clause 14, information on the (c) the landlord receives no rent or payment related to number of financial penalties and criminal convictions the letting from the letting agent or any other party; under the ban will be captured by the lead enforcement and authority.In the light of what the noble Lord suggested, (d) the purpose of the letting is to promote the landlord’s we will consider how best to share this information well-being. with Parliament. Both agents and landlords that are (3B) In subsection (3A)— banned from operating will be captured on the rogue (a) “only or principal home” has the same meaning as landlord database; the Prime Minister made it clear in section 1 of the Housing Act 1988; that we plan to make this information public. Local (b) “utility costs” includes the residential costs of gas, housing authorities also have powers to include persons electricity, water, telecommunications and internet; convicted of a breach of the fees ban on that database, (c) “well-being” has the same meaning as in section 1(2) as well as including persons who received two or more of the Care Act 2014.” financial penalties in a year for any banning order offence committed at a time when the person was a residential Baroness Barran (Con): My Lords, this amendment landlord or a property agent. builds on the points raised by my noble friend Lady Further, Clause 23 places a duty on the lead Jenkin in her speech at Second Reading relating to enforcement authority to keep under review social and home share schemes. I am aware that in his summing commercial development relating to the letting sector up of that debate, my noble friend the Minister noted and the operation of relevant letting agency legislation, that this is an issue he is keen to resolve. I hope that as well as to advise the Secretary of State about it from this amendment will go some way to achieving that. time to time. I hope this reassures the noble Lord that Clause 25 sets out the meaning of the term “letting we will track and review the effectiveness and enforcement agent”. However, as currently drafted the Bill is likely of the ban and its impact on the private rented sector. to define home share organisations as letting agencies I hope that will we achieve what his amendment wants and to ban them from charging young people who but we do not think it necessary to prescribe further currently pay a contribution towards those organisations’ reporting requirements in the Bill. As I said, we will costs. Although home share is relatively small in this consider how best to make this information available country it helps several hundred older and younger in the light of the debate. people. It is an approach that I believe has great We will also, as the noble Lord may know, review potential. Indeed, before I joined your Lordships’ the legislation within five years in line with normal House, as the chief executive of SafeLives we developed practice and submit that review to the appropriate a partnership with Homeshare, looking to use the Select Committee in the other place. We do not intend scheme to support the victims and the perpetrators of to review the Bill in isolation. Recently a number of domestic abuse. legislative changes have been made to the lettings My amendment seeks to ensure that home share industry with more planned related to the regulation schemes are explicitly excluded from the definition as of letting agents. These changes, along with the Bill, it stands. As drafted, it seeks to capture the essence of support and deliver on our commitment to rebalance home share arrangements and to distinguish them the relationship between tenants and landlords and to from those of commercial letting agents. I have tried GC 215 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 216 to put in the technical aspects of the arrangement; Lady Barran, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy namely, the nature of the instructions from the landlord, of Southwark, addresses the problem. I hope very the absence of any rent or occupation charge from much that the Minister is in a receptive mood. either the tenant or the home share organisation and the potential contribution by the tenant towards utility Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I am happy costs, as well as, crucially, the purpose of the scheme. to have added my name to Amendment 12, proposed The purpose must be quite clear: it is to promote the by the noble Baroness, Lady Barran. As we have landlord’s well-being. The amendment also clarifies heard, these issues were raised by the noble Baroness, the meaning of the term “principal home” in line with Lady Jenkin of Kennington, at Second Reading. Section 1 of the Housing Act 1988; “utility costs” which could also potentially include additional council In moving the amendment, the noble Baroness tax; and “well-being” in line with Section 1(2) of the explained in detail that it would exempt people from Care Act 2014. being letting agents and being caught by the Bill’s provisions if they meet a number of conditions, as set The amendment is needed to ensure that home out. She makes a very fair point. One thing we do not share can continue to grow in the UK. It helps hundreds want to do, as is always a risk when passing legislation, of isolated and lonely older people. I have spoken to a is for it to have unintended consequences.This amendment number of family members whose parents are supported seeks to stop that, so that the good work being done through home share schemes and they could not praise through this scheme—where no rent changes hands, them enough for the support their parents receive. It and people give each other mutual support and contribute also has the potential to help thousands in the future. to utility bills—will not be caught by the legislation. I This is clearly timely given the epidemic of loneliness am happy to support the noble Baroness in finding that we hear so much about facing not only older a way forward to protect the scheme. If the Minister people. There is increasing evidence that it is an issue will not accept this amendment, I hope he will give a for younger people as well. Indeed, without addressing commitment to the Grand Committee that the the definition of a letting agent to explicitly exclude Government understand this is an issue and will table home share schemes, their sustainability will be put their own amendment on Report. at risk. In her speech, my noble friend Lady Jenkin articulated 6.45 pm powerfully the scheme’s strengths, highlighting the human benefits to both the landlord and the home Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I thank sharer, the contribution to the duties of the local noble Lords for this amendment, in particular my authority under the Care Act 2014 and, importantly, noble friend Lady Barran. I worked with her when she the potential for these schemes to be financially sustainable. was involved in SafeLives and I know about the excellent The quality of the relationship between the two individuals work of that organisation with Homeshare on some in the home share scheme is crucial to its success. It is issues. I also pay tribute to the work of my noble specifically for people whose primary motivation is friend Lady Jenkin, who is currently in Myanmar or not commercial but who each want to contribute to Bangladesh dealing with refugee issues. the other’s life. It is vital to frame an exemption for The House came together on this issue at Second genuine home share agencies from the prohibition Reading—quite rightly. It is clear that we all support on charging tenants, without creating a loophole for the valuable work done by home-share organisations commercial letting agents. in matching an older person with low-level support To reiterate, the amendment seeks to exempt from needs with a younger person in housing need. It is an the fees prohibition house-sharing arrangements that admirable arrangement and I quite understand that meet four tests. The first test is that they have been the organisation does not want this to be characterised arranged by an organisation that recruits, vets, supports as rent. That is not the nature of the relationship. and, where appropriate, trains people for the purposes Again, the House was clear about that. of providing support in a shared home environment. In a normal situation, the younger person will The second test is that the individual with the licence provide help with tasks, typically cleaning, shopping to occupy pays no rent. The third test is that they and gardening, and of course friendship and contribute to an agreed level of companionship, care companionship in return for low-cost accommodation. or support. The fourth test is that it happens in the It is a key policy challenge, which Homeshare supports home of an individual who requires that support. To for the country as a whole, helping an ageing population be absolutely clear, in this arrangement the homeowner live in their own homes for longer and addressing receives no rent or any payment from the agency. issues of loneliness. In short, it is a good. At the same As I mentioned at the beginning, home share helps time, it helps a younger person in housing need find an hundreds of young and old people in the UK, but if affordable and safe home—something that is a key we look at home share as it works in Europe, we see priority for my department and for the Government as that it has the potential to help thousands more. I a whole. hope that this amendment is a step towards making I am sure that the matching of two sets of needs sure that that becomes reality. With that, I beg to move. through a single project is laudable and something that should be encouraged to grow. Home-share schemes Lord Shipley: My Lords, very briefly, I spoke at provide ongoing support and reassurance to both Second Reading on the importance of exempting home- householders and home sharers to ensure that the share schemes from the impact of the Bill. It seems to arrangement is beneficial to both. Unless we act, this me that the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, would fall foul of the legislation, as has been pointed out; GC 217 Tenant Fees Bill [LORDS] Tenant Fees Bill GC 218

[LORD BOURNE OF ABERYSTWYTH] Grand Committee when he thinks this legislation will it is an unintended consequence. We will continue to come into force if he is not minded to agree to my work on that and I will undertake to come back to it amendment? on Report. I am more than happy to do that, although I remind the Minister and the Committee that it there is still work to be done. However, I am sure that will be nearly two and a half years since the Government we can take this forward. announced their intention to ban fees. Shelter has I have listened carefully to the concerns expressed highlighted that that means spring next year at the by noble Lords. As I indicated at Second Reading, I earliest, and perhaps later. It will have taken longer to am extremely sympathetic to them and we will do design and implement the ban on letting agent fees something on this. We will return to the matter on than the Government have taken to negotiate the Report. With those reassurances, I hope that my noble Brexit deal. We will still have to wait with bated breath friend will feel able to withdraw her amendment. to see whether we end up with the final 5%, but that puts in context how long we have been waiting for this, Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, can I be and we still will not get there. absolutely clear on what the Minister is saying? He The delay in implementing the ban does not come will bring back on Report or perhaps at Third Reading without a price. We have already seen examples of an amendment that will deal with this issue. some agents hiking fees in anticipation of the ban and, as a result, many tenants are currently facing even Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I hope to higher up-front costs than before the ban was announced. engage with noble Lords ahead of that to discuss the This waiting period is causing people real problems. way forward, but I am keen that we should deal with The average letting fee among those who have paid this. I have indicated that it is not appropriate to deal fees appears to have risen significantly over the past with it by private arrangements with the organisation two years. A survey of private renters shows that the because I do not think that that would satisfy its average letting fee is £246, which is a significant rise legitimate desire to ensure that this is not a tenancy-type compared with the average of £182 just a couple of agreement. years ago. The Government must recognise the price that people who rent are paying while waiting for these Baroness Barran: I thank my noble friend the Minister policies to be put into practice, and they must ensure for his reassuring comments and warm reflections on that the Act comes into force on the day it is passed, as the work of Homeshare. I believe that he said that it is my amendment seeks. a good thing, in the spirit of 1066 And All That. The letting industry has known for many years that In that spirit, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. this ban would be coming and it has had sufficient time to adapt its business models. This delay is very Amendment 12 withdrawn. disappointing and I hope that the Minister and his department will be able to respond positively. We need Clause 25 agreed. a fixed date and to get this legislation implemented as soon as is reasonably possible. We have waited far too Clauses 26 and 27 agreed. long. I beg to move. Baroness Grender: My Lords, I support these Clause 28: Transitional provision amendments. I have already raised my considerable concern about the timings. As the noble Lord, Amendment 13 Lord Kennedy, said, the Government announced this measure in the autumn of 2016, at the same time as Moved by Lord Kennedy of Southwark my Private Member’s Bill was progressing through 13: Clause 28, page 20, line 33, leave out “one year” and insert the House, and I was absolutely delighted at their “six months” announcement. However, it feels as though it is taking a very long time. I know that the Ministers concerned Lord Kennedy of Southwark: In moving Amendment 13 are not responsible for that—they have worked very I shall speak also to Amendment 14, which is tabled in hard to push this through. my name. Both amendments seek to highlight what is When the Government first started consulting on often, unfortunately, a recurring theme: the time it can this issue, they rightly changed their mind and agreed take to make progress on important issues. to take a look at it. The consultation showed that the Under Clause 28, it will be a whole year after the poorest tenants are being ripped off time and again, Act comes into force before landlords will be subject and that will not stop. If anything, it will get worse in to the consequences of the law if they make a tenant the intervening period before this legislation is introduced. pay a prohibited payment. To be clear, that is not a I am hugely in support of the legislation being introduced year after the Act becomes law because Section 1 will as quickly as possible. Generation Rent was talking to not come into force until the Secretary of State decides me about this only this morning. It is receiving evidence by regulation when it should do so. We actually have that letting agents are becoming more assertive over no idea when it will come into force, if ever. It will their administration fees to make up for what they certainly be some time after the Bill is enacted, and believe to be a shortfall. that is totally unacceptable. That is why I tabled As I said at Second Reading, other organisations Amendment 14, as it would bring the Act into force on are playing a significant role in this matter. OpenRent, the day it becomes law. Can the Minister please tell the which I will mention in later arguments, started in 2012 GC 219 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 220 and is now the largest letting agent in England and and agents with pre-commencement tenancies would Wales. It has made a profitable model on the basis of be at risk of not being able to renegotiate their contracts never charging fees to tenants. Therefore, it is perfectly and would not receive fees that the tenant had previously possible for an industry to be ahead of the legislation. agreed to pay. Again, we do not believe that this would However, with the exceptions that I have described, be fair. this particular industry is not ahead of the legislation, We recognise the importance of having a clear although it has been warned again and again. There point where the fees ban applies to all tenancies. As has been working group after working group on this issue. drafted, the transitional provisions mean that all tenants I was absolutely delighted that the Government will receive the benefits of the fees ban one year after it decided, very wisely, in the Autumn Budget Statement comes into force; as I said earlier, initially there was no of 2016 to flex their muscles and get on with this, but such arrangement. Unlike the proposed amendment, we need to do it. I would find any further delay, or the provisions ensure that agents and landlords will suggestion of it, in the Bill extremely worrying, which not be significantly impacted on financially and will is why I support the amendment. have the opportunity to review their contracts during the transitional year. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment against the Lord Young of Cookham: I am grateful to noble background of that explanation. Lords for taking part in the debate. They have made their impatience over the date of commencement Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I thank the noble absolutely clear. We agree that we want this legislation Lord for responding to the debate. I suppose that we to come into force as soon as possible, not least to will not agree, which is disappointing. It is a shame protect the tenants referred to by noble Lords. that although there is a lot of good stuff in this However, we need to strike a fair balance between legislation that we can support, things take such a long protecting tenants and allowing landlords and letting time, as I said in my introduction. That is a recurring agents time to become compliant with the legislation. theme with the noble Lord’s department, which I have The ban is not about unfairly penalising landlords and raised many times in other consultations and discussions letting agents or driving them out of business. We have on this. It often seems like we are pulling teeth to get said that implementation will not be before April 2019; things moving along. So we are frustrated at the length we intend it to be as soon as possible after that. Of of time these things take, and that is why we have course, at the moment we do not know when it might taken a stand on this. get Royal Assent. I understand that but we believe that I also tabled Amendment 14, which seeks to bring there needs to be a reasonable gap between it reaching the Act into force on the day on which it is passed. My the statute book and it being implemented. frustration here is the fact that, even when it is passed, Turning to Amendment 13, the transitional provisions we then have to wait for an SI to be tabled to bring it in Clause 28 provide that for the period of a year, the into force. I have no certainty as to whether it will ever ban will not apply to tenancies whose terms were come into force; potentially, it could be left there and agreed prior to commencement. Similar transitional might never happen. I am sure that will not be the provisions are made for agents’ agreements with tenants. case, but the Committee will see that there is no The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, certainty as to an agreed date. That is very frustrating, seeks to reduce the period in which a landlord or agent and I may come back to this point on Report. At this could accept a payment prohibited by Clause 1 from stage, however, I am happy to beg leave to withdraw one year to six months. We have already sought to give the amendment. tenants greater clarity and protection with respect to the commencement date. Crucially, we have revised Amendment 13 withdrawn. our position from that in the draft Bill, where there Clause 28 agreed. was no end date by which fees could be charged in pre-commencement tenancies. There has been a 7 pm considerable shift towards protecting those who have already signed their contracts. Clauses 29 to 31 agreed. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, recognised that a transition period is necessary—his amendment proposes Clause 32: Commencement a slightly shorter one—because although most fees are charged at the outset of a tenancy, some landlords and Amendment 14 not moved. agents will have agreed that tenants should pay other Clause 32 agreed. fees, such as a check-out inventory fee, at a later stage. Tenants will have signed contracts accordingly; we Clause 33 agreed. need to allow time for landlords and agents to renegotiate them to ensure that the legislation does not have a significant retrospective effect. Schedule 1: Permitted payments Our view is that 12 months is fair for the transition Amendments 15 to 22 not moved. period. Data from the English Housing Survey shows that 45% of tenants had an initial tenancy of 12 months Amendment 23 and 36% had one of six months. Reducing the period in which a landlord or agent could accept a payment Moved by Baroness Grender prohibited by Clause 1 would mean that more landlords 23: Schedule 1, page 24, line 30, leave out paragraph 4 GC 221 Tenant Fees Bill [LORDS] Tenant Fees Bill GC 222

Baroness Grender: Amendment 23 takes us to the offences anyway. This scenario is about compensation, default payments issue, which, as the Minister is aware, damages and losses caused to the landlord or the we have discussed in considerable detail. And I am sure agency by the tenant’s misbehaviour. A no fees clause we are about to discuss it in considerable detail again. could fairly cover that situation as the amount of the In summary, Amendment 23 removes the provision that loss has to be assessed according to the facts of each would allow default payments, and in Amendment 24 case. we explore the option that prohibited default payments There might be a way for these defaults to be should be included in the Bill. written into a tenancy agreement, but that is likely to We welcome the greater transparency as a result of be part of a broad catch-all term such as, “You will proceedings in the Commons, but still argue that this be charged the reasonable cost to the landlord or is unnecessary and that current legislation will cover letting agent for failing to act in a tenant-like manner all worst-case scenarios. We have had quite a debate in relation to common parts of the building”. But about whether or not there could be anything other including default fees in this way is unfair because it is than a lost key or security device, or the late payment difficult for a tenant to assess what is expected of of interest. I have gone to great lengths to consider as them. It would be better for these sorts of charges to many scenarios as possible to get us beyond a lost key come from the deposit where there is independent or security device or the late payment of interest. arbitration. Such a catch-all clause would also be an Imagine the following scenario: a decent landlord unfair contract term under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 or a decent, fully accredited lettings agency running a because it purports to give the landlord a power to block of 10 flats. Nine of the households are good, charge costs for damages without any control or law-abiding tenants but one tenant is a problem. They adjudication by a court or an alternative dispute resolution park their car in front of the fire escape, and the scheme. lettings agency has to move it, and they leave rubbish Overall, even if default fees were allowed, they and old food to mould on the carpets in common would never be a remedy for these scenarios anyway. parts, incurring a cost to the lettings agency. Here, I These examples are about damages claims and, if am trying to imagine as much as possible beyond what serious enough, they will become the basis for possession seems to me to be a very small cost—such as a lost claims as well as money claims. If we remove default key—which could be borne by the landlord, but I will fees and rely on deposits, does that become an unbearable come on to that. cost to the agency or landlord with too long a gap If we remove default fees from the Bill then the because a deposit can be recouped only when there is a following will happen. First, if an agent incurs costs change of tenancy? It could be argued that there is for these actions, they would be able to recharge these some tension between putting all defaults through the to the landlord immediately. The landlord could then deposit system on the one hand while on the other recover the costs via the deposit, provided they could hand encouraging longer tenancies than the usual show evidence that the tenant had caused the damage, six or 12-month assured shorthold tenancies. We think and evidence of the additional cost and the reasonable that there are a couple of strong arguments against this. costs incurred. Secondly, if a landlord incurs these First, the aim of the Bill is not to encourage longer costs, the landlord would incur the cost initially and tenancies, but about ensuring fairness in the lettings then recover this via the deposit at the end of the market and making sure that tenants are protected tenancy. Again, they would need to be able to provide from unfair charges. Ensuring that landlords can charge evidence to the Deposit Protection Scheme that the tenants for additional costs they incur during the tenant had caused the damage and of the reasonable tenancy,as opposed to waiting until the end of the tenancy costs incurred as a result. If this results in the landlord to recover such costs from the deposit, is not an or agent incurring vast costs as a result of the tenant’s effective way of giving renters more security. If the actions—although we have very little evidence to that Government genuinely want to ensure that renters are effect so far, and the Minister would agree that we do given more security, they need to change the law to not yet know about this—the landlord could use a give them longer tenancies. I am delighted that they Section 8 notice to evict the tenant for breaching the are looking into that. terms of their tenancy agreement for damage to the Secondly, most of these costs, such as replacing a property or even potentially for being involved in key or the interest due on late rent, are small ones that antisocial behaviour. I fully recognise that landlords a landlord should be able to cover for the duration of have concerns about the court system and that there the time the tenant lives in the property. If the costs are frustrations over the current Section 8 process, but are so high that a landlord feels the need to end the that is not something that this Bill is expected to fix. tenancy so that they can recover them from the deposit, We welcome the fact that the housing call for evidence it is likely that this will stray into the territory where announced by James Brokenshire is taking place. the landlord will have a ground for possession of the It is important to remember that in the current property. In those circumstances, the landlord is likely draft of the Bill, default fees must be written into the to want the tenancy to end as soon as possible. I go tenancy agreement in advance if they are to be permitted. back to my scenario of the 10 flats. Even if landlords It is quite unlikely that the potential breaches I have charge for these defaults during the tenancy, they will described—or have tried to imagine on behalf of probably be keen for the tenancy to end as soon as noble Lords—would be written into the tenancy possible if the tenant is causing them to incur such agreement with an associated fee for breaching them. high costs. It seems unlikely that they would renew the Therefore there is no guarantee that a landlord or an tenancy when the initial fixed term comes to an end or agent would be able to charge a default fee for these continue with the statutory periodic tenancy. GC 223 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 224

With smaller costs, we see it as appropriate that a the most will be protected the least. I thank noble landlord should absorb them or a letting agent should Lords for bearing with me on all these arguments. charge them to the landlord as a business cost. This is I beg to move. particularly relevant to my example of 10 flats as the landlord will have nine other reliable streams of income which should allow for some short-term absorption of The Earl of Lytton: My Lords, I am grateful to the costs before recovering them from the deposit. This noble Baroness, Lady Grender,for raising this.I wondered brings me back to the point already raised: why is this slightly about the procedure of deletion and adding in, section necessary when Section 213 of the Housing Act but I will leave that to others. I will touch on one or 2004 and possession under Section 8 of the Housing two things. Act 1988 already exist? In Scotland there is no default We must start from the standpoint that under the fee. On Shelter Scotland’s website it says: terms of a lease, a tenant is provided with exclusive “Legislation explicitly prohibits charging a tenant for drawing possession of and control over the property of their up a lease or requiring a ‘premium’ for the granting or renewal of landlord within the terms of the lease. It is perfectly an assured or short assured tenancy. See section 82 of the Rent possible for tenants to do a lot of damage in a short (Scotland) Act 1984—applied to assured tenancies by section 27 period of time. Mercifully, very few of them do, but of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1988. Section 90 of the 1984 Act the occasional one does, because they are ignorant, defines a ‘premium’ as ‘any fine, sum or pecuniary consideration, other than the rent, and includes any service or administration fee because they have strange lifestyles, or for whatever or charge’”. reason. I thought, when I looked at this part of Schedule The more I look at this, the more I am tempted to 1, that the default, defined as performing an obligation believe that this is merely a compensation device for or discharge of a liability, was probably too wide. It an industry that has had fair warning for years and did not surprise me that the noble Baroness has picked has simply failed to be ahead of the legislation—with up on that. To that extent, she has a point. First, the significantexceptions.IhavealreadymentionedOpenRent, landlord absolutely must substantiate the amount in which started in 2012 and is now the largest lettings question. The noble Baroness would introduce the agency in England and Wales. It says: concept of fair condition, then limit fair condition to two items. She has explained that, but I can think of “We’re against any back-door tactics or loopholes that agents/ eight or 10 others that I could add to the mix, all of landlord could use to continue charging tenants huge fees when letting properties. Tying any payable default fees to specific costs which could objectively be seen as fair conditions that the agent/landlord incurs, and also requiring evidence (e.g. of properly occupying and generally looking after the receipts) was a crucial move and we are glad the Government premises by a tenant. made this provision last month. We’d like this to be as strong as possible, i.e. to be statutory instead of merely being guidance. Charging more than the true cost of a default is clearly a fee and 7.15 pm against the spirit of ‘banning tenant fees’. Our Assured Shorthold The noble Baroness referred to arbitrating over Tenancy is used in thousands of tenancies in England and Wales differences. I will share a concern about arbitration. and it doesn’t include any default fees, including late payment fees”. Arbitration has been seized by professional arbitrators and made much more of, and much more costly, than So it is possible to provide a good, responsible service, it should be.The principle of alternative dispute resolution make a profit, and not charge any default fees at all. by other means—perhaps a single, jointly appointed I applaud the Government for changing their mind adjudicator—might have been better, and much more and banning letting fees but this Bill is here and now. cost-effective, than arbitration in accordance with the This is the moment to end the loopholes that have Arbitration Act. The apparent smallness of the cost—the always been exploited—to the cost of the family on a noble Baroness refers to a lost key—is not necessarily low income, the young person saving to one day own an indicator of the process involved. I came across a their own home or the older person who rents. Default situation where a fob for a security system was lost, clauses will end up being something like, “Maintain could be obtained through only the company that the garden”, with no clear indication of who judges operated the security system and cost quite a lot of that, or, “Take your shoes off in the property”, violating money—a bit like the difference between getting an a tenant’s right to peaceful enjoyment and to wear old-fashioned car key recut and getting a modern, whatever they like on their feet. In a worst-case scenario, electronic, keyless entry car fob reconfigured. Gaining it might be requiring a tenant in a poorly insulated, possession is not an alternative to the cost of making damp building to prevent mould through heating and good wanton damage through carelessness or whatever. keeping the windows open or to pay £100 per room to The noble Baroness referred to condensation. Such repaint mouldy rooms. It then becomes a moral question, was the frequency with which I was asked about not to mention a paternalistic one, about letting agents condensation professionally that, at one stage, I had a presuming that tenants are unable to keep a home in complete piece on my website about the causes of, and good condition without the threat of penalties. how to deal with, condensation. About two years ago, All these issues can be judged fairly through the an architect asked me to look inside a property because current tenancy deposit route, which has independent she needed to speak to the tenant about a condensation arbitration outside the courts. Tenants are much more issue. I was able to have some input, because the able to challenge and get a fair ruling on deposit tenant had not been informed that the windows were deductions than they would be on contractual default fitted with trickle vents, which were all closed. The fees, which they may not understand or know how to tenant had decided that the extractor fans for both the challenge. Default is too much of a loophole. It will kitchen and bathroom were noisy, and had turned become a judgment call, and those who can be exploited them off at the isolator switch. Because the tenant did GC 225 Tenant Fees Bill [LORDS] Tenant Fees Bill GC 226

[THE EARL OF LYTTON] from ingenious people looking to get round almost not like the cost of operating the dryer part of the anything? How can we be confident that the Bill is washer-dryer, clothing was dried on a concertina rack watertight? in the living room of this flat. Noble Lords will not be Amendment 24, in the names of the noble surprised when I say that this produced some extremely Baronesses, Lady Grender and Lady Thornhill, and unhealthy conditions, of which some, but not all, my Amendment 25 seek to make provision for default might have been expected to be in the landlord’s initial fees to be more transparent if they remain in the Bill briefing. I think that limiting fair condition to only and, as drafted in my amendment, to be detailed in two items does not go far enough, just as I think that regulations setting out what is a permitted payment in the Bill, as drafted, is probably a little too wide. How this regard. This would provide a clearer, legal definition would you define whether the obligation was reasonable of default fees. That would prevent abuse, protect tenants, and whether the discharging of a liability was a proper ensure that tenants understand what they could be one to be included in the lease? There is a happy charged for and increase confidence in challenging medium somewhere. I commend that thought to the illegal, prohibited fees.In contrast to guidance, regulations Minister. would act as a deterrent and give tenants a statutory basis from which to challenge prohibited fees. The late Lord Best: I think we are all aware that if there is payment of rent and lost keys are the most commonly the possibility of a loophole being discovered, somebody cited examples; in each scenario, the purpose of the out there will discover it. The absolute, 100% intention fee would be clear to the tenant, which would limit the must be to block it. opportunity for exploitation. The noble Baroness, Lady Grender, suggested two I take on board the points made by the noble Earl, alternative routes. One is for the costs that legitimately Lord Lytton. If we were all reasonable people, we fall to the tenant, not the landlord or the agent, to be would not need legislation at all; unfortunately, there picked up in the tenancy deposit scheme so that you are good and bad tenants and there are good and bad do not get so much back at the end. I wonder whether landlords. Often, we have to legislate for the worst the tenancy deposit scheme is tightly defined enough excesses in all cases, and that is partly what we are and whether it is possible to take from the deposit trying to do here. However, I accept that the noble sums relating to, for example, the cleaning of the Earl has made some fair points—I am not suggesting common areas where No. 9 of the 10 flats has been up that that is not the case. I look forward to hearing to no good or where someone has parked the car in the what the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, has to say on these wrong place and so on. I am not sure whether such matters. things can be taken out of the deposit; that is a technical question. The other alternative suggested by the noble Baroness Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I thank all is that the landlord will be so fed up that they will not noble Lords who participated in the debate on this renew the tenancy or will evict the tenant. That is a bit important section of the Bill. To echo the point made harsh. It would be better to find a way to come to an by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, this is about dealing accommodation with the tenant rather than take extreme with the small minority of tenants and landlords. measures. I will need to hear from the Minister the I accept that the vast majority will not need the series of ways in which all the possible loopholes and encouragement we are giving. That said, there is a abuses can be blocked because that must be the Bill’s difficult issue involved, as outlined quite fairly by the intention. noble Baroness, Lady Grender. However, I take a slightly different view on it, so let me outline where I LordKennedyof Southwark:MyLords,Amendment23, am. I am of course happy to carry on discussing this moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, has my ahead of Report, so that we can get to a sensible full support. It would remove default fees from the position on it. Bill. I share the concerns expressed here today that this There are situations where it is quite reasonable provision could be used as a vehicle for unscrupulous that a landlord should be able to claim from the tenant landlords and letting agents to recoup lost income for doing something that is perhaps the tenant’sobligation resulting from the ban. We cannot allow this loophole but which the landlord has taken up. We have heard to go unchallenged. I also agree with the comments of some examples and there will be others that we have the noble Lord, Lord Best; if something can be got not thought of—I do not suppose anybody except the around, someone will usually be smart enough to work noble Earl had thought about condensation until today, it out and get around it. We should always be aware of but we are now aware that that situation perhaps that; it is very important to stop that. needs to be covered. We are not necessarily going to be In the Bill, the Government seek to limit default able to think of an exhaustive list, but the list we are charges and fees to costs that are “reasonably incurred”, looking at does not relate to damage. which must be evidenced in writing. However, this will It is not appropriate that a replacement key should prevent landlords and agents including unfair terms in come out of the deposit; the deposit is there to counteract tenancy agreements and trying to charge unreasonable damage that is done. That would be true of a locksmith amounts. Of course, we will come back to this issue of coming in as well. How will that be shown to be a what is reasonable; we have come back to the issue of reasonable cost? It has to be evidenced in writing: for guidance many times. In responding to the debate, can example, with the receipt from Timpson. I do not the noble Lord explain how he believes that tenants think anybody could reasonably object to that. It is will be protected from this unfair practice? How does entirely right. There is a whole jurisprudence on the legislation, as it is framed now, protect people reasonableness, and I can happily supply it all to the GC 227 Tenant Fees Bill [5 NOVEMBER 2018] Tenant Fees Bill GC 228 noble Lord, Lord Kennedy—it runs to volumes and our sights, but I hope that the noble Baroness will volumes in the law of negligence and elsewhere, as the accept that there are legitimate situations that we can noble Lord, Lord Beecham, will certainly be aware. look at ahead of Report while trying to isolate the This is an area in which there is substantial jurisprudence. cases where there is abuse. With that assurance, I We can give some examples but giving an exhaustive respectfully ask her to withdraw the amendment. definition will take some time. I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Best, that Baroness Grender: I thank the Minister very much it would not be appropriate to evict a tenant or to say for that reply.I would of course welcome the opportunity that that has to happen in this type of situation. I to work with him and officials to try to tighten up this think that a landlord would be very happy to renew a provision. This area goes to the very heart of where we tenancy if he was able to claim in relation to lost keys all started out, so I see getting this right as absolutely and a locksmith being called out, and there is no fundamental. I am more than happy to work with the reason why he should not be able to do that. Minister on this and, with that prospect in mind, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. I am very keen to look at this issue ahead of Report to see how we can perhaps tighten it up, as I accept Amendment 23 withdrawn. that there might be a need to do that. However, there are legitimate situations where it is not unreasonable Amendments 24 to 26 not moved. for the landlord, during the currency of the lease—not at the end of the lease, when the deposit will kick Lord Young of Cookham: My Lords, the Committee in—to be able to claim for the cost of work that has has been sitting for nearly four hours, so I think that been done. It is no more and no less than that. I this might be a convenient point at which to adjourn. recognise that we want to stop any potential abuse by the small minority of landlords whom we all have in Committee adjourned at 7.29 pm.

Volume 793 Monday No. 202 5 November 2018

CONTENTS

Monday 5 November 2018