Da´Il E´Ireann

Vol. 639 Wednesday, No. 2 10 October 2007

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

DA´ IL E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Wednesday, 10 October 2007.

Leaders’ Questions ……………………………… 437 Ceisteanna—Questions Taoiseach ………………………………… 445 Death of Former Member: Expressions of Sympathy ………………… 476 Requests to move Adjournment of Da´il under Standing Order 32 ……………… 481 Order of Business ……………………………… 482 Charities Bill 2007: Order for Second Stage …………………………… 492 Second Stage ……………………………… 492 Ceisteanna—Questions (resumed) Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government Priority Questions …………………………… 508 Other Questions …………………………… 518 Visit of Northern Ireland Delegation ………………………… 524 Ceisteanna—Questions (resumed) Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government …………… 524 Adjournment Debate Matters …………………………… 536 Charities Bill 2007: Second Stage (resumed) ……………………… 536 Private Members’ Business Fire Services: Motion (resumed) ………………………… 587 Adjournment Debate Hospital Services ……………………………… 621 Pig Industry ……………………………… 624 Road Traffic Offences …………………………… 628 Fire Services ……………………………… 630 Questions: Written Answers …………………………… 633 437 438

DA´ IL E´ IREANN was a commercial decision on the part of Aer Lingus and the company has reiterated that it will ———— not change that decision. The Government is conscious that this will create difficulties for the De´ Ce´adaoin, 10 Deireadh Fo´mhair 2007. region and several members have met all the rel- Wednesday, 10 October 2007. evant organisations from Shannon.

———— Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: It has done nothing. Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar 10.30 a.m. The Taoiseach: Several of my colleagues have gone to the region and I have met several of those ———— organisations. I met all the main organisations who sought meetings with me in the middle of Paidir. August. Prayer. Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: What did the ———— Government do?

Leaders’ Questions. The Taoiseach: As the Deputy knows, the senior officials group has put forward a prog- Deputy Enda Kenny: Every murder here does ramme, on which we are working, to address the us down as a people. I am appalled at the news obvious implications for Shannon, and the this morning that a young Swiss student, having Government admits there are implications. Those come to Ireland last weekend, has been murdered implications have perhaps, at times, been broad- in Galway. I hope the public responds to the call ened out in a way with which we do not agree for assistance from gardaı´ so that the perpetrator but there are negative impacts for tourism and of this latest murder is brought to justice. It does business people wishing to travel. We have pub- us all down to have such unfortunate and tragic lished the report of the senior officials group, on events foisted upon us. which we all worked, and we will endeavour to do This week, 11 October is a critical date because all we can to ensure connectivity for the business it is the date by which arrangements must be people in Shannon. The commercial decision, made for approval for slots into Heathrow Air- however, has been made and while protections port. We have had many conversations with and are afforded to the Government by its sharehold- heard much waffle from Government on the con- ing, those protections do not extend to its forcing sequences of the decision of Aer Lingus to move Aer Lingus to make a decision it believes is not its Heathrow slots from Shannon to Belfast. If in its interest. Aer Lingus does not submit a request for Shannon-Heathrow slots by Friday, to be Deputy Enda Kenny: This represents the approved at a conference in Toronto sometime in hypocrisy of Government. The Taoiseach prom- mid-November, then the decision stands. Words ised a White Paper, before the sale of Aer Lingus, of Government are supposed to mean something to deal with the regional strategic objectives and and a Government is supposed to stand by what he has been completely blindsided in this matter. it says. The Government retains a shareholding A major decision such as this, commercial or of 25.4% in Aer Lingus for a particular purpose otherwise, would not have gone ahead without that the Taoiseach identified as defending stra- the tacit approval of Government. tegic interests of this country. Those strategic interests were identified as Shannon-Heathrow, Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: Hear, hear. Cork-Heathrow and Dublin-Heathrow. Can the Taoiseach explain how the strategic interest of Deputy Enda Kenny: It would certainly not Shannon is protected by the removal of the slot have gone ahead without reference to the board. from Shannon Airport to Heathrow? When discussions took place about the development of an all-Ireland economy I am quite sure The Taoiseach: I join Deputy Kenny and, I am they referred to this issue, at least in some form. sure, everybody in the House in conveying deep- The Taoiseach has not answered the question est sympathies to the family of Manuela Riedo. as to how the removal of the Shannon-Heathrow It was a callous murder of a girl who had only slots protects the strategic interests his Govern- recently arrived in Ireland. The Garda Sı´ocha´na ment specifically outlined as the reason for has launched a major murder investigation and retaining a shareholding of 25.4%. The Govern- whatever resources are necessary to apprehend ment recognises that this is not just a local the killer will be made available. whinge, nor that it is an issue confined to the mid- The decision at the beginning of August, on west. Substantial business interests have made the which the Government has made several state- point clearly that the removal of the slots will not ments outlining its position, to withdraw the be a major catalyst for moving out of the region. Shannon-Heathrow service from January 2008 However, it will certainly be a serious contribu- 439 Leaders’ 10 October 2007. Questions 440

[Deputy Enda Kenny.] and one we support. Through a new link up with tory factor and if anything were to happen to the a US carrier JetBlue access to and from Shannon transatlantic routes the Taoiseach will be faced will be possible via 50 airports in the US, Mexico with a very serious problem. and the Caribbean. New direct services to Ireland I listened to the Minister for Transport on the are possible under the open skies policy. radio the other morning. He made the point that the reason for appointing two further board Deputy Pat Breen: Not to Shannon. members is to ensure the board of Aer Lingus takes full cognisance of Government policy. The Taoiseach: Aer Lingus is launching new Government policy is to protect the strategic services to Washington, Orlando and San interests of Shannon, Cork and Dublin but the Francisco. Government has not done that. Does the Taoiseach accept that the original failure of Deputy Pat Breen: From Dublin. Government to appoint two members to the Aer Lingus board was negligent in the extreme and Deputy Eamon Gilmore: Not through meant that the commercial decision of which he Shannon. speaks was taken by Aer Lingus without the full cognisance and understanding of Government The Taoiseach: Yes, from Shannon. Experi- policy? ence suggests that 50% of North American visitors can be expected to include a trip to the mid- Deputies: Hear, hear. west region. Other initiatives can be taken. Deputy Kenny is right that this has created con- The Taoiseach: Deputy Kenny will recall that cerns for the business and tourism communities, the board did not make that decision — it was however we have met all the interested parties made by the senior management of the company. and we are acutely concerned about them. We are trying our best, if it is possible — but I cannot Deputy Tom Hayes: Why appoint members to guaranteed certainty — to assist them. the board, then? Deputy Pat Breen: Aer Lingus is the only The Taoiseach: If Deputies had been around in option. early August they would have known that to have been the case. The position in law is that it is not Deputy Eamon Gilmore: In less than three possible for Government to intervene directly to months it will not be possible to get a flight from restore the Shannon-Heathrow service and it is Shannon to Heathrow. There is no point in telling not open to the Government to reverse the Aer people that they can get a flight to Orlando if Lingus decision. That is the position. they want to travel to London. In less than three weeks time—— Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: Sell the 25%. Deputy Michael Ahern: There are two other Deputy Dan Neville: What is the Minister for airports. Transport and the Marine going to do? Deputy Eamon Gilmore: ——due to deterior- Deputy Enda Kenny: What is the legal ating industrial relations in Aer Lingus, it may position? not be possible to get an Aer Lingus flight to anywhere. Last weekend British Midland indicated The Taoiseach: That is the legal position. It is that it does not intend to run a service from the law that shareholders cannot overturn man- Shannon to Heathrow. I would like the Taoiseach agement decisions. It is no good having a debate to tell us the name of the proposed carrier that about what is legally and factually incorrect. will offer a service from Shannon to Heathrow. Deputy Kenny has asked his questions and he As I understand it, it was either British Midland does not need help from other Members. Clearly or Aer Lingus and if British Midland will not there are negative impacts arising from a loss of provide the service, then the only way in which a connectivity. Deputy Kenny asked how this service from Shannon to Heathrow can be pro- coincides with regional assistance. The Govern- vided is if Aer Lingus changes its position. ment made it clear that it does not. The Minister We have deteriorating industrial relations in for Transport and the Marine, Deputy Dempsey, Aer Lingus. If the suspension of pilots continues, and I made this point on 7 August in the first inevitably it will result in an effect on the services few days after the decision. The Shannon Airport being provided to the travelling public. Authority and the Government are actively The Minister, Deputy Dempsey, announced at engaging with carriers about new services to and the weekend that he intends to appoint two from Shannon, including Shannon-Heathrow. It additional directors to the board of Aer Lingus, has recently published a new hub airport incen- and these people could and should have been tive scheme. Aer Lingus has confirmed that it is appointed at a much earlier stage. Will the committed to serving the transatlantic market to Taoiseach answer these three questions? How is and from Shannon. That is an important decision it proposed to provide a service from Shannon to 441 Leaders’ 10 October 2007. Questions 442

Heathrow? The people in the regions of the mid- with each other as it is in their own strategic west and west were led to believe by Government interests, and their own jobs. The Labour spokespersons and Deputies to bear with the pro- Relations Commission stated this morning that it cess and that it would be all right on the night, is available to help, and whether it is necessary to that something would be fixed up and some alter- bring in another party or they are best to do it native service would be put in place to service the themselves, they have difficulties to resolve which Shannon-Heathrow route. It is time we were told are best resolved in direct negotiations. the plan for services from Shannon to Heathrow On the question of whether the appointment of and not from Shannon to anywhere else. How two board members would have made a differ- seriously is the Government taking the deterior- ence, the management made its decision and it ating industrial relations situation in Aer Lingus? would not have made a difference. We have made Does the Taoiseach intend to use the powers a number of good appointments to the board; we open to him or the relevant Minister under have appointed international figures in the past section 38 of the Industrial Relations Act to ask year or so and it is our intention to continue to either the Labour Relations Commission or the appoint people who can play an important role in Labour Court to intervene in that dispute? Can the future success of Aer Lingus. the Taoiseach explain why the Government left the board of Aer Lingus under-representated by Deputy Eamon Gilmore: I thank the Taoiseach the State at a critical period when Aer Lingus was for the early part of his reply which clarifies making critical decisions that affect our strategic entirely the position on the Shannon- Heathrow interests? service. It is quite clear from the Taoiseach’s reply that the Shannon-Heathrow service is dead. Deputy Enda Kenny: Deliberate. Deputies: Hear, hear. Deputy Eamon Gilmore: Why were the two directors not appointed at a much earlier stage? Deputy Eamon Gilmore: All the talk about Why is it now, only after the horse has bolted, finding an alternative has simply dried up, partic- that the two directors are being appointed appar- ularly with the British Midland decision. ently with a mandate to protect the State’s interests in that company? Deputy Dan Neville: A smokescreen.

A Deputy: It is a whitewash. Deputy Eamon Gilmore: I interpret the Taoiseach’s response to mean that connectivity The Taoiseach: I will respond to the Deputy’s and not Heathrow is the issue, that the Govern- three questions. The interests of the business ment is now no longer actively pursuing a service organisations relate to connectivity from London from Shannon to Heathrow. to other destinations. It is not about getting to London as there are flights to Luton, Gatwick (Interruptions). and Stansted. Ryanair has announced its intention of increasing its daily flight numbers so there Deputy Eamon Gilmore: That is what it comes are seven flights per day from Shannon to down to. London and the—— Deputy Michael D. Higgins: That is what was Deputy Eamon Gilmore: My question refers to said. the Shannon-Heathrow route. Deputy Eamon Gilmore: He says you can go The Taoiseach: I am answering the question. to Gatwick and Stanstead and if you want to go The business groups are not arguing about to Disneyland they will provide a service to Heathrow, it is the issue of connectivity. Clearly Orlando. we would prefer a direct flight from Shannon to Heathrow. In response to the Deputy’s question Deputy Dermot Ahern: Deputy Gilmore is on how we plan to do that, we are assisting the bluffing. Shannon Airport Authority in a range of discussions, but no company is involved. I do not Deputy Eamon Gilmore: However, if you want want to create a grey area on whether we are to do business through Heathrow there will not about to sign up, because we are not. We will do be a service. our best to ensure we sign up somebody but it may not be possible. Deputy Noel Dempsey: That is not what was said. Deputy Dinny McGinley: Where is Willie? Deputy Eamon Gilmore: The Taoiseach, in his The Taoiseach: In terms of industrial relations, reply, stated the Government is abandoning the obviously the Government takes a keen interest Shannon-Heathrow route. That is a disgraceful in any major company with industrial relations abandonment of regional policy and of the people difficulties. I have urged both sides to co-operate of the west and mid-west. It is an abandonment 443 Leaders’ 10 October 2007. Questions 444

[Deputy Eamon Gilmore.] The Taoiseach: A board supports the decisions of the country’s strategic interests as they relate of management. That is how a board works. It is to Aer Lingus. not for management to make decisions on a daily In his reply to the question about the appoint- basis only to have the board overturn those ment of the board the Taoiseach said the decision decisions. was a management one. What is a board of directors for, if not to supervise what management is Deputy Simon Coveney: The Government is doing, make it accountable and direct it where represented on the board of Aer Lingus. direction is required? If direction was not required on this type of issue where does a board The Taoiseach: Fine Gael had time to speak. of directors give direction? I cannot think of an They should give the Labour Party a chance. issue more strategic to the interests of the country or of the company than the decision made in Deputy Eamon Gilmore: I thank the respect of Shannon. The strategic nature of the Taoiseach. decision was flagged by Deputy Cullen, then Minister for Transport, when he identified it as The Taoiseach: A board supports management the kind of strategic issue which the State would decisions. It does not overturn them. The board use its 25% shareholding to protect. The Govern- of Aer Lingus agrees there were difficulties with the commercial realities of the decision. ment did not even appoint a sufficient number of I have said many times that the loss of the directors to protect the State’s interests and the Shannon-Heathrow service is disappointing and strategic interests of the country when the com- that the counties in the wider mid-west region, pany was making this decision. The Government and along the western seaboard in particular, abandoned its responsibility for the people and have difficulties with the decision. Unlike Deputy the country’s strategic interests in relation to Aer Gilmore and the Labour and Fine Gael parties, Lingus. The Taoiseach has confirmed that this we will not give up. morning. People who are planning to book an Aer (Interruptions). Lingus flight need to hear something more definite about the plans to settle the current indus- The Taoiseach: We will continue to do all we trial relations difficulties in the company than we can to find a way. I am sorry Deputy Gilmore heard this morning. takes the view that because an agreement is not signed and delivered we do not have something Deputy P. J. Sheehan: Nero fiddled while on the table today. Rome burned. (Interruptions). The Taoiseach: Deputy Gilmore should remember from his past that industrial relations The Taoiseach: Deputy Gilmore asked the difficulties are not solved in Leinster House. question. If the Opposition continues in this way I will simply tell my greater numbers to interrupt Deputy Dan Neville: Shannon could be. Opposition Leaders every time they speak. I tell them to do the opposite. The Taoiseach: The Labour Relations Com- mission is available to all sides in the dispute, who (Interruptions). are quite capable themselves of dealing with the issues. They know they must resolve the dispute The Taoiseach: Does Deputy Gilmore want and should deal with the situation. an answer? Deputy Gilmore should also know that the directors of a company will always listen to their Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: The west would love senior management. to hear it. (Interruptions). Deputy Joan Burton: They cannot do so if they are not there. The Taoiseach: I will ask my colleagues not to interrupt. However, if Opposition Deputies do Deputy Dan Neville: If there is something not want to listen—— wrong they should change it. (Interruptions). The Taoiseach: If the senior management is of the view that the executive is doing the right thing An Ceann Comhairle: I ask the Taoiseach to and that it will not agree to put commercial obli- conclude. gations on it which it does not believe is right, the board will go along with that. The Taoiseach: I will conclude. The Opposition do not want to listen to my answers because Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: Does the Deputy Gilmore’s party would like the Govern- Taoiseach believe they did the right thing? ment to give up and do nothing to help Shannon. 445 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions 446

On this side of the House we have always helped 3. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the Taoiseach Shannon. We have always helped the mid-west if he will list the persons appointed to State and we will continue to do so. boards or agencies operating under the aegis of his Department since 1 January 2007; and if he Deputy Dermot Ahern: We are not johnny will make a statement on the matter. [20154/07] come latelies. The Taoiseach: I propose to take Question Ceisteanna — Questions. Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together. The information sought by the Deputies con- ———— cerning appointments made by me to State boards and agencies under the aegis of my Appointments to State Boards. Department since June 2002 is set out in the fol- 1. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach the lowing schedule. appointments made by him since June 2002 to the The relevant bodies are the National Statistics State Boards, or other agencies under his aegis; Board, the Law Reform Commission, the and if he will make a statement on the matter. National Centre for Partnership and Perform- [16808/07] ance, the National Economic and Social Council and the National Economic and Social Forum. 2. Deputy Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in asked the The schedule also lists appointments made in Taoiseach the appointments made by him to respect of the Second Information Society Com- State boards since June 2002; and if he will make mission, the term of office of which ended on 31 a statement on the matter. [18784/07] December 2004.

Boards and Agencies under the aegis of the Department of the Taoiseach

Board

1 The National Statistics Board 2 The Law Reform Commission 3 The National Centre for Partnership and Performance (NCPP) 4 The National Economic and Social Council (NESC) 5 The National Economic and Social Forum (NESF)

State Board / Agency: National Statistics Board

National Statistics Board (NSB)

Name Occupation / Organisation Date of Appointment

Mr. Frank Cunneen Health & Safety Authority (IBEC) February 2004 February 2006 Mr. Ciaran Dolan ICMSA February 2004 February 2006 Ms. Paula Carey ICTU February 2004 Ms. Mary Doyle Department of the Taoiseach February 2004 February 2006 July 2007 Prof. Brendan Walsh University College Dublin February 2004 February 2006 July 2007 Dr. Patricia O’Hara Western Development Commission February 2004 February 2006 July 2007 Mr. Derek Moran Department of Finance July 2003 February 2004 February 2006 Mr. Paul Sweeney ICTU October 2006 July 2007 Mr. Danny McCoy IBEC July 2007 Mr. Michael J. McGrath Department of Finance July 2007 Mr. Con Lucey IFA July 2007 447 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions 448

[The Taoiseach.] State Board / Agency: Law Reform Commission

List of appointments to the Law Reform Commission since 2002

Name Occupation Date of Appointment

President Mrs Justice Catherine Judge of the Supreme Court 22 February 2005 McGuinness Commissioner (Full-time) Patricia T. Rickard-Clarke, Solicitor 15 September 1997 Reappointed 30 September 2004 Reappointed 1 September 2007 Commissioner (Part-time) Dr. Hilary A Delaney, B.L. Senior Lecture in Law, TCD 15 April 1997. Reappointed 15 April, 2002 Resigned May 2005 Commissioner (Part-time) Professor Finbarr McAuley, Jean Monnet Professor of 1 September 1999. B.C.L., LLB, Mphil, LLD, European Criminal Justice, Reappointed 1 September UCD 2004 Reappointed 1 September 2007 Commissioner (Part-time) Marian Shanley Solicitor 13 November 2001 Reappointed 12 November 2004 Reappointed 1 September 2007 Senior Counsel (Part-time) Donal O’Donnell Senior Counsel 28 June 2005 (replaced Dr. Hilary A. Delaney, BL) Reappointed 1 September 2007

State Board / Agency: National Centre for Partnership and Performance (NCPP)

Name Occupation / Organisation Date ofAppointment

Executive Chairperson Mr. Peter Cassells October 2001-April 2004 reappointed: 7 November 2005 Government Departments Mr. Philip Kelly, Asst. Dept. of the Taoiseach October 2001 reappointed: 24 Secretary Deputy January 2006 Chairperson Mr. Ciaran Connolly, Asst Dept. of Finance October 2001 reappointed: 24 Secretary January 2006 Mr. John Walsh, Asst. Dept. of Enterprise, Trade& June 2002 — (replaced Mr. Secretary Employment Maurice Cashell) Reappointed: 24 January 2006 Employers Mr. Brendan McGinty Director, Human/Industrial October 2001 Reappointed: 24 Resources, IBEC January 2006 Mr. Liam Doherty Director, Human Resource October 2001 Reappointed: 24 Services, IBEC January 2006 Mr. Gavin Marie IBEC replaced Mr. Liam Doherty in April 2007 Mr. Eddie Keenan CIF 24 January 2006 Ms. Irene Canavan Arnotts 24 January 2006 Mr. Morgan Nolan Industrial Relations,CIF Jan 2004 — (replaced Terry McEvoy) Trade Unions Mr. Fergus Whelan Industrial Officer, ICTU October 2003 — replaced Mr. Tom Wall Reappointed: 24 January 2006 Mr. Jerry Shanahan AMICUS 24 January 2006 449 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions 450

Name Occupation / Organisation Date ofAppointment

Ms. Catherine Byrne INTO 24 January 2006 Mr. Des Geraghty Member of Executive September 2004 — (replaced Council, ICTU Mr John Tierney, MSF) Mr. Gerry McCormack SIPTU 24 January 2006 Ms Angela Kirk IMPACT September 2004 — (replaced Ms Marie Levis) Mr. Sean Heading, Education & Training Services Trust has been nominated by ICTU as an alternate Independent Members Prof. Joyce O’Connor National College of Ireland 24 January 2006 Ms. Dorothy Butler Scally Human Resources Consultant 24 January 2006 Dr. Catherine Kavanagh UCC 24 January 2006

State Board / Agency: National Economic and Social Council (NESC)

Name Occupation / Organisation Dates of Membership

Chairperson Mr. Dermot McCarthy Secretary General, Dept. of September 2003 the Taoiseach June 2007 Deputy Chair Ms. Mary Doyle Assistant Secretary, Dept. of September 2003 the Taoiseach June 2007 Trade Union Pillar Mr. David Begg General Secretary, ICTU September 2003 June 2007 Mr. Peter McLoone General Secretary, IMPACT September 2003 June 2007 Mr. Manus O’Riordan Economist, SIPTU September 2003 June 2007 Ms. Joan Carmichael Assistant General Secretary, September 2003 ICTU Ms. Sally Anne Kinahan Assistant General Secretary, January 2004 (replaced Joan Carmichael) ICTU June 2007 Mr. Jack O’Connor Vice President, SIPTU September 2003 June 2007 Business and Employer or Organisation Pillar Mr. Turlough O’Sullivan Director General, IBEC June 2007 Ms. Aileen O’Donoghue Director, Financial Services September 2003 Ireland June 2007 Mr. Brian Geoghegan Director, IBEC September 2003 Mr. Danny McCoy(replaced Director of Policy, IBEC October 2005 Brian Geoghegan) June 2007 Mr. John Dunne Chief Executive,Chambers of September 2003 Commerce Ireland June 2007 Mr. Liam Kelleher Director General, September 2003 Construction Industry June 2007 Federation Agricultural and Farming Organisation Pillar Mr. Seamus O’Donoghue Secretary, ICOS September 2003 June 2007 Mr. Ciaran Dolan General Secretary, ICMSA September 2003 June 2007 Mr. Michael Berkery General Secretary, IFA September 2003 June 2007 451 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions 452

[The Taoiseach.]

Name Occupation / Organisation Dates of Membership

Mr. Eddie Punch General Secretary, ICSA June 2007 Mr. Damien McDonald Chief Executive, Macra na September 2003 Feírme Mr. Colm Markey National President, Macra na June 2007 Feírme Community and Voluntary Pillar Fr. Sean Healy Head of Justice Office, CORI September 2003 June 2007 Mr. Donall Geoghegan Programme Manager, September 2002 National Youth Council September 2003 Mr. John Dolan Chief Executive, Disability September 2003 Federation of Ireland June 2007 Ms. Deirdre Garvey Chief Executive, the Wheel September 2003 John Mark McCafferty Policy Officer, Saint Vincent September 2003 de Paul Mr. Seámus Boland Chief Executive,Irish Rural June 2007 Link Ms. Brid O’Brien Senior Policy Officer, Irish June 2007 National Organisation of the Unemployed Ms. Camille Loftus Community Platform June 2007 Government Department Nominees Secretary General Dept. of Finance September 2003 June 2007 Secretary General Dept. of Enterprise, Trade September 2003 and Employment June 2007 Secretary General Dept. of Social and Family September 2003 Affairs June 2007 Secretary General Dept. of Communications, September 2003 Marine and Natural Resources Secretary General Dept. of the Environment, September 2003 Heritage and Local June 2007 Government Secretary General Dept. of Education and June 2007 Science Independent Nominee Prof. John Fitzgerald Senior Research Officer, September 2003 ESRI Prof. Eithne McLaughlin Dept. of Social Policy, September 2003 Queens University, Belfast Mr. Colin Hunt Head of Research, Goodbody September 2003 Stockbrokers Dr. Peter Bacon Economic Consultant September 2003 Prof. Brigid Laffan Department of Politics, UCD September 2003 Dr. Sean Barrett (replaced Department of Economics, January 2005 Colin Hunt) Trinity College June 2007 Mr. Con Lucey Economist,IFA June 2007 Prof. Peter Clinch UCD June 2007 Prof. Elizabeth Meehan Queen’s University June 2007

State Board / Agency: National Economic and Social Forum (NESF)

Full Membership 2004

Name Occupation / Organisation Date of Appointment

Independent Chairperson Maureen Gaffney Jan/Feb 2004 May 2007 Deputy Chairperson Mary Doyle Asst. Sec., Dept. of the Jan/Feb 2004 Taoiseach May 2007 Strand (i): Oireachtas Michael Woods Fianna Faíl TD Jan/Feb 2004 John Curran Fianna Faíl TD Jan/Feb 2004 Senator Mary O’Rourke Fianna Faíl Jan/Feb 2004 Senator Paschal Mooney Fianna Faíl Jan/Feb 2004 Senator Brendan Daly Fianna Faíl Jan/Feb 2004 Senator Geraldine Feeney Fianna Faíl Jan/Feb 2004 Pat Carey Fianna Faíl TD Jan/Feb 2004 Senator Paul Coghlan Fine Gael Jan/Feb 2004 Damien English Fine Gael TD Jan/Feb 2004 Paul Kehoe Fine Gael TD Jan/Feb 2004 Joan Burton Labour TD Jan/Feb 2004 Willie Penrose Labour TD Jan/Feb 2004 Senator Kate Walsh Progressive Democrats Jan/Feb 2004 Senator Feargal Quinn Independents Jan/Feb 2004 Jerry Cowley Technical Group TD Jan/Feb 2004 Strand (ii): Employer/Trade Unions Employer/Business Jackie Harrison IBEC January/February 2004 Organisations Maria Cronin IBEC October/November 2004 (replaced Jackie Harrison) Tony Donohue IBEC September 2006 (replaced Maria Cronin) May 2007 Heidi Lougheed IBEC January/February 2004 May 2007 Patricia Callan Small Firms Association January/February 2004 May 2007 Kevin Gilna Construction Industry January/February 2004 Federation Dr. Peter Stafford Construction Industry replace Kevin Gilna Oct 05 Federation May 2007 Robert O’ Shea Chambers of January/February 2004 Commerce/Tourist Industry/Exporters Association Sean Murphy Chambers of replaced Robert O’ Shea Aug Commerce/Tourist 05 Industry/Exporters May 2007 Association Trade Unions Eamon Devoy Technical Engineering & January/February 2004 Electrical Union May 2007 Blair Horan Civil & Public Service Union January/February 2004 May 2007 Jerry Shanahan AMICUS January/February 2004 May 2007 Manus O’Riordan SIPTU January/February 2004 May 2007 Paula Carey ICTU January/February 2004 Esther Lynch ICTU Sept 2006 (Replaced Paula Carey) May 2007 455 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions 456

[The Taoiseach.]

Name Occupation / Organisation Date of Appointment

Agricultural/Farming Mary McGreal Irish Farmers Association Jan/Feb 2004 Organisations Michael Doody Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Jan/Feb 2004 Association May 2007 Mary Johnson Irish Co-Operative Jan/Feb 2004 Organisation Society Carmel Brennan Macra na Feirme Jan/Feb 2004 Anne Murray Irish Country Women’s Jan/Feb 2004 Association Carmel Dawson Irish Country Women’s June 2006 (Replaced Anne Association Murray) May 2007 Emer Duffy Irish Co-Operative May 2007 Organisation Society Michael Berkery General Secretary IFA May 2007 Catherine Buckley Macra na Feirme May 2007 Strand (iii): Community & Voluntary Sector Women’s Organisations Orla O’Connor National Women’s Council of Jan/Feb 2004 Ireland May 2007 Joanna McMinn National Women’s Council of Jan/Feb 2004 Ireland Unemployed June Tinsley INOU Jan/Feb 2004 John Farrell INOU replaced June Tinsley Oct 05 Patricia Short ICTU Centres for the Jan/Feb 2004 Unemployed Disadvantaged Sr. Brigid Reynolds CORI Jan/Feb 2004 May 2007 John-Mark McCafferty Society of Saint Vincent de Jan/Feb 2004 Paul May 2007 Audrey Deane Society of Saint Vincent de Nov 2004 (replaced John- Paul Mark McCafferty) Sharon Keane Anti-Poverty Networks Jan/Feb 2004 Joe Gallagher Anti-Poverty Networks replaced Sharon Keane Sept 05 Youth/Children Malcolm Byrne NYCI Jan/Feb 2004 Marie Claire McAleer NYCI replaced Malcolm Byrne Sept 04 Raymond Dooley Children’s Rights Alliance Jan/Feb 2004 Jillian Ban Turnhout Children’s Rights Alliance replaced Raymond Dooley Aug 05 May 2007 Older People Robin Webster National Council for Ageing Jan/Feb 2004 and Older People/Senior Citizen’s Parliament/Age Action Others Frank Goodwin The Carers Association Jan/Feb 2004 May 2007 Seamus Boland Irish Rural Link Jan/Feb 2004May 2007 Fergus O’Ferrall The Wheel Jan/Feb 2004 Ivan Cooper The Wheel May 2007 Brid O’ Brien Pavee Point Jan/Feb 2004 Aisling Walsh Disability Federation of Jan/Feb 2004 Ireland Joanne McCarthy Disability Federation of replaced Aisling Walsh in Ireland 2006 May 2007 Michael O’Halloran Chief Executive Officer Irish May 2007 Senior Citizens Parliament 457 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions 458

Name Occupation / Organisation Date of Appointment

Marie Claire McAleer National Youth Council of May 2007 Ireland Karen Murphy Irish Council for Social May 2007 Housing Head of Services Frances Byrne OPEN May 2007 Kathleen McCann Congress Centres Network May 2007 Stavros Stavrou Integrating Ireland May 2007 Maria Joyce National Traveller Womens May 2007 Forum Strand (iv): Central Government, Local Government and Independents Central Government Secretary General Dept. Finance Jan/Feb 2004 May 2007 Secretary General Dept. Enterprise, Trade & Jan/Feb 2004 Employment May 2007 Secretary General Dept. Social & Family Affairs Jan/Feb 2004 May 2007 Secretary General Dept. Community, Rural & Jan/Feb 2004 Gaeltacht Affairs May 2007 Secretary General Dept. Environment, Jan/Feb 2004 Heritage & Local May 2007 Government Local Government Councillor John Egan General Council of County Jan/Feb 2004 Councils Councillor Ger Barron General Council of County Nov 2004 (replaced Cllr. John Councils Egan) May 2007 Councillor Patsy Treanor General Council of County Jan/Feb 2004 Councils Councillor Jack Crowe General Council of County Nov 2004 (replaced Cllr Patsy Councils Treanor) Councillor Constance General Council of County Jan/Feb 2004 Hanniffy Councils May 2007 Councillor Patricia McCarthy Association of Municipal Jan/Feb 2004 Authorities Donal O’Donoghue County and City Managers Jan/Feb 2004 Association John Tierney County and City Managers Nov 2004 (replaced Donal Association O’Donoghue) Councillor Mattie Ryan Association of County and May 2007 City Councils Councillor Paddy O’ Association of Municipal May 2007 Callaghan Authorities of Ireland Councillor William Ireland Local Authorities Members May 2007 Association Independents Dr Colm Harmon Institute for the Study of Jan/Feb 2004 Social Change, UCD May 2007 Dr Mary P. Corcoran Department of Sociology Jan/Feb 2004 May 2007 Dr Brian Nolan ESRI Jan/Feb 2004 Paul Tansey Tansey, Webster, Stewart & Jan/Feb 2004 Company Ltd. Cait Keane South Dublin County Council Jan/Feb 2004 May 2007 Marie Carroll Southside Partnership May 2007 Professor Rose Ann Kenny TCD May 2007

Deputy Enda Kenny: The Taoiseach said the chairmanship of Dublin Port on the basis of recently that membership of Fianna Fa´il does not his friendship with the Taoiseach or on the basis disqualify persons from being appointed to State of merit and experience? His company special- boards. Was Mr. Joseph Burke re-appointed to ised in refurbishing public houses and employed 459 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions 460

[Deputy Enda Kenny.] tion result? There are vacancies on that board. 16 people in north Dublin. The High Court was What methodology is used in the selection of told the building company had substantial debts. appointees? Does the Taoiseach take a direct It is no fault of anyone that a business venture hand in the selection and, if so, when does he fails. Was his re-appointment made on the basis expect to address this matter? of merit or because he was a friend of the Taoiseach? The Taoiseach: The formula used is based on party representation in the House. Fifteen The Taoiseach: Mr. Burke, as a member and Members of the House are appointed to the chairman of the board for many years, has carried board and it is a straight mathematical division. I out a hugely successful reform of the port com- have not worked out the new formula though I pany and is recognised as having done so across have included the old one in the reply. I will all political persuasions. His appointment is made examine with the Whip’s office what this means on the basis of the knowledge, expertise and for Sinn Feín. experience he brings to the job. These are the qualities a person should bring to a board. There Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: I suppose if it are many Fine Gael and Labour Party people on is based on a formula of numbers — the boards. Most of the people I have appointed in Taoiseach is a man of great skill with numbers my Department have a political orientation but and accountancy — that suggests that perhaps we are not from my party. They are all appointed on would not have automatic entitlement to one of the same criteria. Mr. Burke’s appointment was the 15 positions. Perhaps the Taoiseach will be made on the basis of his knowledge and expertise. good enough to consider the contribution we The improvements in the industrial relations could make. situation and productivity in the company and the changes he has made over many years stand up The Taoiseach: I will consider that. To the best to scrutiny by anyone. of my knowledge, the Technical Group was represented on the previous board, as were the Pro- Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: What is the gressive Democrats and the Independents. I will position regarding Oireachtas membership of the look at the formula. National Economic and Social Forum? Have changes been made or are changes intended in Deputy Eamon Gilmore: What changes, if any, line with the recent general election result? The have been made since the reformation of the technical group was represented by the former Fianna Faíl Government, with the participation Deputy Gerry Cowley, who was not re-elected to on this occasion of the Green Party, following the the Daíl, and the Progressive Democrats rep- general election? Is it the case, as the Taoiseach resentative was the late Senator Kate Walsh. previously stated publicly, that those selected by What is the method of selection? Is it made on him for appointment to boards are his friends? a ratio basis? Has there been any move towards the method Have the NESF vacancies been addressed since proposed in March by the Green Party in its the general election result? Appointments to Public Bodies Bill 2007, which called for an independent and transparent The Taoiseach: Changes will have to be made method of appointments to State boards? I have in respect of membership of the NESF to reflect read the programme for Government and cannot current Oireachtas representation. As I under- find reference therein to any change in the stand it, that is happening or is about method by which appointments will be made to 11 o’clock to happen. It was agreed earlier this State boards. Will the Taoiseach say if there has year that the existing 15 Oireachtas been any change in the method of appointment nominees to NESF would be reappointed pend- to State boards and what concession, if any, has ing the general election following which the posi- been made in respect of the proposals contained tion would be revisited. I understand the Whip’s in the Green Party’s Bill introduced in the House office will shortly be in touch with the parties to in March of this year? seek fresh nominations for the Oireachtas strand. It must be changed based on current Oireachtas The Taoiseach: The Deputy is, of course, mis- representation. representing my view. I have stated many times that it is no longer easy to get people to serve on Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: The Taoiseach State boards, given the commitment required of said that membership of the NESF must change them, much of the time free gratis and often for and that changes are pending. Is he directly very small amounts. Appointments are based on involved in deciding who will fill the vacancies? a person’s experience, expertise, willingness to The Taoiseach indicated that representatives serve and commitment to the organisation in from Fine Gael and the Labour Party will be on which they are involved. Most appointments to boards. Is he willing to consider the appointment organisations that come within the remit of my of a Sinn Feín representative to the board of Department are nominees from the social part- NESF as reconstituted following the general elec- ners. Appointments to organisations such as the 461 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions 462

National Statistics Board and the Law Reform namely, why he forgot to appoint two directors to Commission are limited to people with particular Aer Lingus? expertise in these areas. There are no proposals or procedures in place The Taoiseach: I do not wish to be unhelpful to establish an independent system to examine or to Deputy Shatter but I am answering questions scrutinise appointments. Ministers and Depart- in respect of boards which come under the aegis ments try, to the best of their ability, to select the of my Department. The Government makes right people for positions. As I stated many times, appointments to State boards as provided for in people are no longer queueing up, as they did in legislation. There is consultation with Govern- the past, to participate on State boards. The cur- ment in respect of nominations by Ministers, but rent situation is different, given the legal position, ultimately the decision is made by the Minister. governance arrangements and the commitment Much depends on what is provided for in the rel- required. A limited number of people have the evant legislation. time or the commitment to get involved. That is a fact of life. We continue to manage to obtain Deputy Alan Shatter: The Taoiseach did not suitable people but doing so is not near as easy respond to my question regarding what vacancies as it was ten or 20 years ago. currently exist on State boards. I think the Chief Whip is falling for the Taoiseach. Deputy Eamon Gilmore: What understanding exists between the parties in government with An Ceann Comhairle: He is falling off the job. regard to the making of appointments to State boards? Is there an arrangement by which the Deputy Alan Shatter: We are anxious not to smaller parties in government can make or have a Dublin South constituency accident if by- recommend nominees for appointment to these elections are to be avoided. boards? Will the Taoiseach list what positions are currently vacant on State boards? In the context of The Taoiseach: What normally happens — this the Taoiseach’s expression of concern in respect has been the case for many years — is that the of the difficulty of finding suitable people to sit relevant Department makes a nomination and on boards because of the governance provisions that is agreed by Government. Legislation in and the time commitment, does the Government respect of semi-State companies provides that a plan to review the remuneration payable to Minister may make a nomination which is then members appointed to State boards? agreed by Government, and that is what happens. Consideration will be given to a suitable nomi- The Taoiseach: I do not think there is such a nation by any member of Government. proposal , but the Deputy would need to table a question to each Minister in respect of vacancies Deputy Eamon Gilmore: Is there an under- on State boards that come under the remit of standing or agreement in terms of allocations, their Departments. I have outlined in my reply ratios, proportions and so on between the parties the position in respect of my Department. in government with regard to the making of I have made the point several times that signifi- appointments to State boards? cant issues arise in respect of membership of State boards in terms of time, legal positions and The Taoiseach: No. governance arrangements. Most members of State boards are also members of several audit Deputy Eamon Gilmore: There is no committees and other committees. The situation agreement. is unlike it was years ago. Given the volume of legislation enacted in the past 15 years and the The Taoiseach: There is no agreement in practices arising therefrom, it is no longer con- respect of allocations, ratios and so on. The sidered a great plus to be a member of a State Deputy is implying that the bigger party gets X board. A limited number of people are prepared and the smaller party gets Y, but there is no to give the time and effort required for State such arrangement. boards. It is for this reason that people of all political persuasions and none are represented on Deputy Alan Shatter: Will the Taoiseach con- State boards and that is good. firm that neither the Green Party nor the Pro- gressive Democrats will be consulted in advance Deputy Alan Shatter: Does the Taoiseach in respect of appointments by Fianna Fa´il Mini- know what positions are currently vacant on sters to State boards and that they will have abso- State boards? lutely no say in that matter? Will he tell the House what vacancies currently exist on State The Taoiseach: Is the Deputy referring to my boards? Will he also list those vacancies and tell Department? us when it is intended to fill them? Will the Taoiseach clarify the question asked earlier, Deputy Alan Shatter: No, on boards in general. 463 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions 464

The Taoiseach: I have no idea. Deputy Sea´n Barrett: The Taoiseach in his reply mentioned that because of recent legislation Deputy Alan Shatter: The Taoiseach has no it is becoming more difficult to find good people idea what vacancies exist even in his own to serve on State boards. Is he suggesting that the Department. legislation should be changed. Surely it is most important to find well qualified, good people to The Taoiseach: I know of the situation in my serve on boards and if this is being prevented by Department; that is the subject of these something in the legislation does he propose a questions. change in the legislation?

Deputy Alan Shatter: Which positions are The Taoiseach: No. Issues of governance and vacant? the responsibilities and obligations of directors are the same in the private as in the public sector, The Taoiseach: The board of the NESF needs as the Deputy will be aware. That means that to be reappointed. because of the time commitment, people are not prepared to be members of boards unless they Deputy Olivia Mitchell: The Taoiseach will be can give the time to do the work to the best of aware of requests from the self-catering industry their ability and to participate in committees such for representation on the board of Faílte Ireland. as audit committees. The duties and responsibil- This industry is an important part of the sector ities of board members are demanding. I talk to but because its members are so dispersed many of the key people on State boards on a reg- throughout the country they have very little influ- ular basis and many will say that the time commit- ence or voice while big decisions are being made ment is very high. This is evident in boards in about the future of that sector. The industry has many areas, particularly in the key commercial made its case to the Taoiseach and the line Mini- semi-State sector. Members of such boards do not ster for representation on the board. Will the want to be reappointed. They serve their term Taoiseach use his influence to ensure they are which they regard as their duty to the State and represented when the vacancy arises? they then move on. It is a time commitment. Many boards hold weekly meetings. I referred The Taoiseach: I will bring the matter to the earlier to the board of Aer Lingus, some attention of the Minister concerned. members of which are from the United States so they must travel over for meetings. They put in a Deputy James Reilly: With respect to the considerable effort and the same applies for Taoiseach’s statement about the difficulties of members of other boards. When membership of a finding suitable people, will he inform the House sub-committee is taken into account, such people whether these positions are advertised and, if not, could have to devote as much as one day a week. why not? That is acceptable if a person is not too busy, but it is a significant commitment for an individual The Taoiseach: They are not advertised. who is a member of one of the key commercial State boards. Deputy James Reilly: Why not, if there is a difficulty in finding people? Standards in Public Office. 4. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach if Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: Was there ever a case he has plans to amend the code of conduct for where a person nominated to a board was found office holders; and if he will make a statement on subsequently to be disqualified for any reason the matter. [16810/07] and that person’s name was withdrawn as a result or was forced to resign from the board as a result 5. Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín asked the of information which the Taoiseach was not Taoiseach if it is his intention to amend the code aware of when he nominated the person? of conduct for office holders; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18785/07] The Taoiseach: Is that with regard to my Department? 6. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the Taoiseach his views on changes to the code of conduct for Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: Yes. office holders; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20155/07] The Taoiseach: I cannot recall such a situation. The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: Will the Taoiseach Nos. 4 to 6, inclusive, together. find out this information? The code of conduct for office holders was drawn up by the Government pursuant to section The Taoiseach: I suggest the Deputy puts down 10(2) of the Standards in Public Office Act 2001, a question. following consultation with the Standards in 465 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions 466

Public Office Commission, and published in July I have already admitted that, with regard to the 2003. Manchester money, it may have been unwise at Deputies will be aware that changes are to be the time. Even now, until this legislation is made to the ethics framework upon the enact- changed, the receipt of money from personal ment of the Ethics in Public Office (Amendment) friends is not in any way wrong, illegal, unjust or Bill 2007, which is due to be discussed before the improper. I received the money on the basis of Daíl in the current session. I intend to carry out loans that I would repay and not on the basis that a review of the code, in consultation with the the money was a gift that I would never repay. I Standards in Public Office Commission, as soon received it at a time of difficulty, during a short as the amending legislation has been enacted. period in 1994-95 and that was the basis for repayment, which is what I did. It was not a ques- Deputy Enda Kenny: Is a copy of the code of tion of receiving money from some dodgy source conduct available in the Oireachtas Library for or somebody with whom I was not acquainted. Members to read the rules of the code as they These are people with whom I have been associ- currently obtain? ated for 30 years. They are friends and not even I note the Minister for Defence, Deputy political friends. Some of them have been friends of mine since our school days. The Deputy has O’Dea, apologised to a lady in Limerick for asked a fair question, but I do not regard what I remarks he made. I am sure the Taoiseach did as wrong. If the Deputy asked whether I accepts that this is the proper response from the would have been better off if I did not accept the Minister who therefore must have said something money, I would agree. Having been dealing with akin to what was reported. We have dealt with the issue for seven and a half years, I agree it the motion of confidence in the Taoiseach and he would have been better, but I do not regard it as has had some exposure to more forensic ques- something that was wrong of me to do. tioning than I have an opportunity to ask him in the House. Deputy Enda Kenny: The Taoiseach speaks of The regulations and rules are different now. school friends making personal loans or making When the Taoiseach was Minister for Finance, moneys available. I am not sure if he used the persons known to him made financial contri- term, “dodgy people” or “dodgy issues”. butions to him. Even now does the Taoiseach accept that, as Minister for Finance, the highest The Taoiseach: It was not something that could ranking Minister besides the Taoiseach, the in any way be considered dodgy. acceptance of this kind of contribution was wrong? Does he accept that such conduct was Deputy Enda Kenny: That is fine. One of those completely unbecoming for a serving Minister, people who made a contribution, Mr. O’Connor, despite whatever pressures they may experience? made it on the basis that it was for the Fianna I ask the Taoiseach to comment, given that we Faíl Party. He said publicly he was not a personal are at a remove from the glare of intense cover- friend of the Taoiseach. How does that tie in with age that was recently applied to him? the other school friends who made personal contributions to the Taoiseach? The Taoiseach: If a copy of the code of conduct is not in the Oireachtas Library, it is not a secret The Taoiseach: This is public evidence so I document. The code applies to office holders, have no difficulty answering the question. I was namely the Taoiseach, the Tańaiste, Ministers clearly told that what Mr. O’Connor gave to and Ministers of State, the Chair and Deputy another friend of mine was for me. Twelve years later, however, he has said it was not. I believe I Chair of the Daíl and the Seanad. It is a public know why that has happened, given the way it document and I think there is a copy in the was paid. However, the only thing ever said to Oireachtas Library. me was that it was given for me. With regard to the other question which I have been asked a number of times, this issue arose in Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: The Code of 1995 when the new legislation was enacted and in Conduct for Office Holders states with regard to 1997 and 2001. I would have been required under people who move from Government office to the law to declare those issues and I would have private business that “...office holders should act had no difficulty doing so. To be frank, I would in a way which ensures it could not be reasonably not have lodged those moneys into what is the concluded that... an unfair advantage would be busiest bank in the main street of the capital of conferred in a new appointment by virtue of, for the country, one of the busiest branches of Allied example, access to official information the office Irish Bank, if I thought there was anything wrong holder previously enjoyed”. The former Minister in doing so. There would be a million ways for and Deputy, Mr. Tom Parlon, got a top job with somebody who wanted to do something wrong. I the Construction Industry Federation following was totally up-front in what I did because I saw the recent general election. As a Minister he had nothing wrong and that is the reason I lodged the access to privileged information, not least with money into my bank account. regard to the decentralisation programme. He 467 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions 468

´ [Deputy CaoimhghıńOCaolaín.] tion outside the House? There is reference to this was also responsible for the Office of Public in either the code or the Cabinet handbook; I Works. cannot recall which. It advises people to be care- I am not suggesting that Mr. Parlon did any- ful. It is a little vague in my view. I would prefer thing wrong. However, the code of conduct states a cut and dried requirement. that former office holders “should be careful to Is there a preferable period for such a move? avoid any real or apparent conflict of interest In some countries there is no specified period with the office they formerly occupied”. It is no while in others there is a fixed period. In our secret that this Government has had a special system it is open to interpretation. The interpre- relationship with the construction industry down tation is then used to criticise the individual, one through the years—— way or another. From the point of view of an individual who leaves the House, it would be Deputy Michael Ahern: And with 40% of the better if the code provided that the individual population. cannot do X, Y or Z for three or six months. If one goes beyond that, how is a person supposed Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: ——and it has allowed the industry to dictate housing policy, to live? It is unfair. It would be better if the posi- often against the interests of ordinary people tion was clarified. It is unsatisfactory that an indi- accessing affordable homes. In the context of Mr. vidual can be made to feel they did something Parlon’s example, does the Taoiseach believe that wrong, which is part of this country’s culture any- the code of conduct and the sections I have cited way. I would prefer if the matter was cut and need to be re-examined and strengthened? What dried, and it stated that the person cannot do X, sanctions, if any, exist for former office holders Y or Z for a certain period. who act in breach of the code of conduct? Is it a voluntary matter that office holders accede to the Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: I welcome the terms of the code of conduct or are there sanc- Taoiseach’s stated preference for certainty being tions that can be brought to bear? Will the enshrined in whatever booklet applies, be it the Taoiseach outline what, if any, procedure exists? Cabinet handbook or otherwise. Indeed, the Taoiseach might send me a copy of the Cabinet The Taoiseach: I have answered that question handbook. I have never seen it but it is worth many times. The code of conduct does not stand examining as well. What method will be in isolation. It is part of the wider ethics frame- employed in the review of the code of conduct? work established by the Ethics in Public Office The Taoiseach said a review is under way. Who Act 1995 and the Standards in Public Office Act is conducting it? Is there is a timeframe within 2001. Section 10(7) of the Standards in Public which they will report? Will the recom- Office Act binds office holders to have regard to mendations made be brought before the House and be guided by the code. The code is linked for further scrutiny and debate and for the input directly to the powers of the two legislative of Members of the Oireachtas? Does the measures. The reason for the existence of the Taoiseach have a role in the review? Given his code was to lay out the terms of the legislation comments today, is it not important that the in straightforward, layman’s English. That is what Taoiseach’s view on the importance of certainty it does. in this area should be placed in the code of con- The code cannot impose any new requirements duct? What steps will the Taoiseach take, follow- that are not already set out in the legislation; it ing this matter being raised this morning? cannot go beyond what the law provides. It Earlier this morning the Taoiseach said, in mainly attempts to provide guidance at a level of response to Deputy Kenny, that the Deputy was detail that would be difficult to express in legis- “dead right” and that the Taoiseach wished that lation. It can be, and has been, used by the Stan- things were otherwise. With regard to former dards in Public Office Commission as a guide Deputy Parlon’s case and with no implication of when a complaint is made under section 4 of the wrong doing, does the Taoiseach agree that, given Act as to how the complaint should be investi- the portfolio Mr. Parlon held and the post he gated. The code, therefore, is tied into the legis- took up with such speed following the general lation and into the operation of the Standards in election, he might have been better advised to Public Office Commission. Complaints can be wait for a reasonable period of time? We accept made about breaches of the ethics Acts under that people, following their years of service in this section 4. institution, have the right to a future in employ- With regard to the Deputy’s question, I do not ment. However, standards must be set and the wish to discuss the specific details regarding a sin- code of conduct must reflect them. I agree with gle individual but a review of the code is under the Taoiseach that certainty should be enshrined way. This issue arises regularly after every elec- therein. tion, or at least has done after the last three elections. What is the position of a person who has The Taoiseach: I will not give my views on indi- left politics and goes straight into another posi- vidual cases. If one does that with one and not 469 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions 470 with others, it is unfair. The review will be carried agreed, in the context of generous departure and out by the Cabinet secretariat. Obviously, I will retirement arrangements for senior civil servants have a say in that and I will raise the issue I raised and Members of the House, that not allowing a today. The Cabinet secretariat will do the review buffer period of time to elapse is wrong and sends in consultation with the Standards in Public out the wrong message. One day one looks after Office Commission. the job in Government of spending hundreds of I feel strongly about this matter because it is millions on construction contracts and the next raised regularly. When a Member of the House day one changes hats and does the same job for leaves the House it is unfair for them to be the Construction Industry Federation. If we have treated differently from leaving any other job. a good rule for senior civil servants, why do we The Daíl has turned over 34% of its Members in not have it for people such as the former Minister the last four or five elections. They should not be of State? tainted. Several questions are raised every time about whether something is outside a fixed The Taoiseach: It is a point to be considered period. People must live, particularly younger in the review. It is not there at present. In my Members who leave the House and who have experience, I have not seen any former civil ser- young families and must get on with another vants being advised that they should not take up career. If there is to be a rule, I do not think that positions. Members will note they all move on it should be that they should be careful, look at very quickly and the best of luck to them. The it or take it into account. How does one do so? answer to the question whether the former Mini- Any Member of the House, office holders or non- ster of State Mr. Parlon asked me or the Govern- office holders, will have met and associated with ment is “no”. He had no obligation to do so. people. Is it the case that when they enter the There is no procedure or rule that he had to do House, they cannot do this or that? so. I have looked at what happens in other jurisdictions because the issue was raised several Deputy Alan Shatter: In the context of ethics times during the past ten years. Either they do and the code of conduct as it stands at present, nothing and the person is entitled to do whatever would the Taoiseach feel comfortable if the Mini- he or she likes the following day or they have a ster for Finance, Deputy Cowen, met a group of fixed period. Our position is that the onus is put people informally either in or outside Ireland to on a Member that they should be careful about talk to them about the economy, how the State is this, that and the other and I do not think this doing and where he sees the economy going dur- is practical. ing the next 12 months and at the end of the meeting the group had a whip-around and gave An Ceann Comhairle: I should remind him \10,000 which he took away as a personal Members that people outside the House may not gift? Would the Taoiseach be comfortable if any be the subject of either blame or praise in the other Minister so behaved? House. This is a long-standing precedent and in the case of former Deputy Parlon I allowed the The Taoiseach: He would follow the ethics questions because it was in the public domain issue of the day. I note that many office holders prior to this and no impropriety was being sug- have functions and golf outings at which they do gested on the part of former Deputy Parlon. precisely that and declare them. As Deputy Shat- ter knows, nowhere better than the legal Deputy Joan Burton: The net point with regard profession—— to the former Minister of State, Mr. Parlon, is that had he been a senior civil servant in the OPW Deputy Alan Shatter: I am not talking about who transferred to a job directly connected with political donations or funds raised for political his previous job of overseeing considerable vol- purposes. If the Minister for Finance, Deputy umes of capital State expenditure in construction Cowen, or any Minister sat down today with a projects, under the code of ethics he would have group of people, gave them a briefing on the been required to contact either the Secretary economy for more than an hour and they had a General of the Department or the appointments whip-around — not for his political campaigning board for advice on what is a conflict of interest. or purposes, not a political donation, but because Did the former Minister of State advise the they decided he was a nice guy and needed a few Government, the Secretary to the Government or bob — and gave him \10,000, would the the Secretary General of his former Department Taoiseach be comfortable with this behaviour? that he was undertaking a position which could Would he expect a Minister in his Government give rise to the perception of a conflict of interest to retain those funds for his or her own purposes? if not an actual one? The rule for senior civil servants, which we debated at length here, is that The Taoiseach: A Minister today must abide unless they are advised it is alright they must wait by the code and legislation and obviously one 12 months. People on all sides of the House cannot do that. 471 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions 472

Deputy Alan Shatter: Previously, the to publication. As such, I sought advice from the Taoiseach stated there is nothing in the law at Attorney General, who considered these issues present to prevent a Minister so behaving. and advised that the report should be published in full. Accordingly, I brought the report to the The Taoiseach: I stated that with regard to Cabinet and published it on 4 April. The Govern- friends. Deputy Shatter put it in a different ment has considered the findings of the report context. carefully. Although they relate to a difficult period in the Deputy Alan Shatter: If the group were the past, Mr. MacEntee’s findings with regard to Minister, Deputy Cowen’s friends and he had met shortcomings and omissions are a matter of them a couple of times before, would the serious concern. It should also be acknowledged Taoiseach be comfortable with it? Is he aware that he found considerable improvements in and does he accept that former Ministers such as administrative practice since that time. A full Deputy O’Rourke have stated that if they were review has now been carried out of all systems offered funds in these circumstances, they would and procedures in the relevant Departments and not accept them? agencies to ensure that the failures found by Mr. MacEntee do not occur in the future. The Taoiseach: I accept that the Minister for In chapter 11 of his report, Mr. MacEntee Finance, Deputy Cowen, Deputy O’Rourke and stated that for legal reasons he was unable to anyone else would now follow the code of con- report on one significant aspect of his terms of duct and the legislation. That is what I would do reference specifically relating to why the Garda also. Sıóchańa did not follow up on a lead they had regarding a man who stayed in the Four Courts Dublin-Monaghan Bombings. Hotel. Following dissolution of the commission of inquiry, the relevant confidential information 7. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach the remained subject to legal privilege. Its archive costs which have accrued to his Department in respect of the MacEntee inquiry; and if he will was transferred to my Department, where it is in make a statement on the matter. [16812/07] secure storage. Based on the legal advice of the Attorney 8. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach General on this point, the Government decided when he next expects to receive a report from the to seek voluntary withdrawal of claims of privi- MacEntee inquiry; and if he will make a state- lege from those agencies, both here and in ment on the matter. [16813/07] Britain, which provided the confidential material to the commission so that it could be shared with 9. Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín asked the the relevant authorities in this State. Agreement Taoiseach the action he will take on foot of the has now been obtained from all those agencies report of the MacEntee inquiry into the State’s and my Department has forwarded this docu- response to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings mentation to the Director of Public Prosecutions of May 1974; and if he will make a statement on and the Garda Sıóchańa for appropriate con- the matter. [18786/07] sideration. Deputies are aware that I and my officials have 10. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the consistently raised these issues with the British Taoiseach the action he will take arising from the authorities, including at Prime Minister level, and report of the MacEntee commission into aspects will continue to do so. I recognise that victims’ of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in 1974; issues and dealing with the past are difficult, but and if he will make a statement on the matter. it is important that we find a way to resolve this [20156/07] and allow people move on with their lives. The total amount spent by the commission of 11. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the investigation is \2,632,702. This amount breaks Taoiseach if he has raised or intends to raise with down as follows: \1,756,533 on legal costs; the British Prime Minister the report of the \351,410 on support staff; and \524,759 on set-up MacEntee commission into aspects of the Dublin and administrative costs of the offices of the and Monaghan bombings in 1974; and if he will commission. make a statement on the matter. [20157/07] Deputy Enda Kenny: Is the Taoiseach aware The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions of how unhappy the Justice for the Forgotten Nos. 7 to 11, inclusive, together. group is at the fact there was little discussion or I received the final report by the Commission substantive investigation into what is contained in of Investigation into the Dublin and Monaghan the report with reference to the man in the Four bombings of 1974 from the sole member, Mr. Courts Hotel? Is he aware that any evidence Patrick MacEntee, SC QC, on 12 March last. available to the State was made available in this Under the Commissions of Investigation Act, I regard? Will the Taoiseach comment on whether was obliged to consider certain legal issues prior it is a State security matter? 473 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions 474

The subcommittee which dealt with the Barron position. Any other information is probably in report last November recommended an the hands of MI5 or MI6 and I do not see how Oireachtas debate should take place on collusion we will get it. referred to in the report. Obviously, it would have been preferable if that debate had taken place An Ceann Comhairle: We are running out of before the election but that did not happen for time but I will allow two brief supplementaries whatever reason. Is that a matter to which the from Deputy O´ Caolaín and Deputy Gilmore. Taoiseach will give consideration in the future? ´ In regard to his comments about continuous Deputy CaoimhghıńOCaolaín: It is now 12 interaction with the British authorities, a matter months since the Oireachtas sub-committee made we have raised on many occasions, is the the recommendation of a full debate in both Taoiseach happy that they have supplied all the Houses of the Oireachtas on the issue of col- information they can in respect of this matter? lusion. The Taoiseach has not responded to the Has he spoken to Prime Minister Brown, since earlier question from Deputy Kenny. Will he be his appointment as British Prime Minister, on the specific on when that debate will be accommo- issue of whether there are outstanding documents dated? I have raised this matter over the summer or material that could be provided by the British recess and since then with the Chief Whip, who authorities in order to bring this matter to a can confirm that is the case. I believe the matter final conclusion? needs to be accommodated with some urgency. Having read the MacEntee report, does the The Taoiseach: In relation to the man who Taoiseach hold the view that the Government stayed in the Four Courts Hotel, I have, as out- and Garda response at the time raises very lined in my reply, forwarded the relevant material serious questions? I have heard him articulate his to the appropriate authorities for their consider- concerns on this whole area and I am of the view ation. Regarding Justice for the Forgotten, there that gross incompetence is not enough to explain what happened, given the seriousness of the fail- have been comprehensive examinations and all ure to properly investigate and the disappearance the work regarding Mr. Justice Hamilton, Mr. and destruction of records pertaining to the tragic Justice Barron’s report, the commission of inves- events of 17 May 1974. What action does the tigation and the examinations here in the House Taoiseach propose to take in this regard, given has been completed to the best of everybody’s that I have heard him articulate on a number of ability. occasions his particular concern in relation to that It was only recently that I saw that information whole area of the investigation or, more correctly, regarding the issue I mentioned in the reply. I will the failure to properly investigate all that per- give my own political view on it; I do not want to tained to that issue? get into the legal realms. I do not think we should Following the appointment of the new British look at it with enormous interest. In my esti- Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, has the mation, it is not very substantive. That is purely Taoiseach raised with him the failure of the Brit- my political view; it is for others to offer a legal ish Government to properly co-operate with the view. Obviously, I cannot say what it is — given series of inquiries by Mr. Justice Hamilton, Mr. what it is — but I had not seen in previous work Justice Barron and Mr. MacEntee? Has the when it was finished. I have just seen it in recent Taoiseach acquainted him with the extent of the times but it is no more substantive than many failure of the British authorities to properly co- other things I have seen in these reports. I do not operate with an Oireachtas Commission know whether it is of any relevance at all, but appointed by this Parliament and its failure to co- that is a matter for the Director of Public Pros- operate throughout which has not only impeded ecutions. Politically, I do not think it is of huge but stunted the potential of those commissions of interest because we are talking about a period 34 inquiry to properly get to the full detail that must years ago. If there are any leads on these issues, be available? they are not there. Has the Taoiseach had the opportunity to raise If the Deputy asked if I believe that all the with Mr. Brown the other pressing issues under information that is available in the British estab- the umbrella of collusion, for example, the mur- lishment has been given to us, I certainly would der of Pat Finucane, which the Daíl has unani- not answer “yes” to that question. If the Deputy mously agreed warrants a full inquiry? asked whether we have we all the information we Having met the family of the late councillor are going to get from the British authorities, I Eddie Fullerton of Buncrana and Donegal would answer “yes” to that question. After the councils, has he any intent to initiate a full public considerable efforts of Mr. Justice Hamilton, Mr. inquiry with cross-jurisdictional application into Justice Barron and Mr. MacEntee, we are that particular murder? unlikely to see any further information. With the help of numerous Secretaries of State they did Deputy Eamon Gilmore: Following the publi- ultimately change their position and gave far cation of the MacEntee report, the Taoiseach more information than they were giving in the stated that there should be a broader debate on first place. They moved substantially from their the issue of collusion. The Justice for the Forgot- 475 Death of Former Member: 10 October 2007. Expressions of Sympathy 476

[Deputy Eamon Gilmore.] Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: With respect, ten group is particularly anxious that this debate I do not believe it is a conclusion. should take place. What are the plans in that regard? Death of Former Member: Expressions of Last week, the Garda Commissioner Sympathy. announced that he was establishing a cold case The Taoiseach: I convey my sincere condol- type arrangement within the Garda to re-open ences and those of my Fianna Faíl colleagues to and examine approximately 200 unsolved mur- Seań Keegan’s wife Mary and his children, Marie, ders. Will the Dublin-Monaghan bombings come Nan, Nuala, Tom and Gearo´ id on the sad loss of within the remit of that cold case arrangement our former colleague and a loyal servant of the and be subject to re-examination by the Garda on people of Westmeath. Seań was a stalwart of our that basis? party, on the county council, in the Seanad and here in the Daíl. He was a committed republican The Taoiseach: Obviously, issues around the and a politician who took great pride in rep- Finucane and other cases are continually raised resenting the people of Westmeath here in our with the British Government. At a meeting just National Parliament. before the summer I raised these issues with As many of his friends in this House will know, Prime Minister Gordon Brown. Seań came from a patriotic family with a strong There is no substantive discussion on collusion background in public service. Seań’s father had in the MacEntee report. It was the clear view of been active in the War of Independence and Seań the Oireachtas committee that the issue of col- himself developed a strong association with many lusion could only be properly addressed by an of the founders of the Fianna Faíl party, who had appropriate inquiry in the UK. As regards a Daíl a prominent role in the quest for national self- debate, I have always had serious concerns about determination. In his political life Seań was first a number of atrocities that happened in the State elected to Westmeath County Council in 1955 at during the 1970s, including the Dublin-Monaghan a time when Eamon de Valera still led Fianna bombings. That is why I asked the late Mr. Justice Faíl. In 1965, Seań contested his first general elec- Hamilton in the first place and then Mr. Justice tion at the behest of Seań Lemass. Seań and I Barron to look at all of these incidents. As the both entered the Daíl on the same day in 1977. House will be aware, the Oireachtas joint com- By that stage, Seań was however a veteran of our mittee report which dealt with these issues made parliamentary party having been elected to the some stark findings and painted a very disturbing Seanad in a by-election in 1970. picture. As I said when I published the MacEntee I remember Seań in this period as a person who report, I fully support the call for a debate in the was unfailingly courteous and helpful to new Daíl and Seanad and I am happy to do that when- Members of the Oireachtas. He was always ever the House agrees to do it. anxious to speak at our parliamentary party In regard to the other issues raised by Deputy meetings. He always had a contribution to make O´ Caolaín, in the context of all the reports includ- about issues and particularly issues to do with ing the MacEntee report about that period, as I rural Ireland and the midlands. Throughout our said in my reply, findings in regard to short- shared time in Leinster House, Seań was a dedi- comings and omissions are a matter of serious cated, hardworking and patriotic Deputy. He viewed it as a privilege to represent the people concern. The situation has improved. We have of his constituency of Longford-Westmeath. As a asked the Garda to ensure these kinds of issues Deputy, he gave tangible effect to his patriotism never happen again, where whole files and by working diligently to improve the quality of records went missing. Deputy O´ Caolaín has life in his community and more importantly for alluded to what I said many times before. I less well off people in his community. He was cannot and never will understand how a file on very honoured to say that he strongly supported something like the Dublin-Monaghan bombings them. which happened in May 1974 was closed in In his time, Seań gave committed service to August 1974. All I can do is ensure that the pro- Fianna Faíl, which we remember today on this cedures in place now, and for some years, will side of the House, to people of all persuasions in never allow for the lack of records and recording Westmeath and to the country. He will be sadly of procedures to happen again and that any of the missed by his wife Mary, his five children, his recommendations made by the late Mr. Justice wider family and friends. I met Seań during the Hamilton, Mr. Justice Barron or Mr. MacEntee course of the general election campaign this year. are implemented. They throw considerable light Even though his health was declining he was very on the circumstances of the time and are helpful anxious to be out and about in support of the to the families. They do not solve everything as democratic process. From this side of the House we know, regrettably. I believe we have done a we will remember him as a loyal and faithful ser- good service in the last number of years in all vant who served in both Houses of the these reports which have really now come to a Oireachtas, who served at local government level, conclusion. and who was a diligent and active person about 477 Death of Former Member: 10 October 2007. Expressions of Sympathy 478 politics throughout the country but particularly in Deputy Eamon Gilmore: On behalf of the his native constituency. Ar dheis De´ go raibh a Labour Party, I join the Taoiseach and Deputy anam dı´lis. Kenny in expressing my personal sympathy and that of my party with Mary Keegan and her Deputy Enda Kenny: I join the Taoiseach in family on the death of the late Seań Keegan. For extending the commiserations of the Fine Gael someone to have served through four decades as Party to all Seań Keegan’s Fianna Faíl colleagues, a public representative from the time of his elec- and particularly to his wife Mary and family tion to Westmeath County Council in 1955 to his members who are here. Many people in the cur- time in Daíl E´ ireann in the 1980s is a great per- rent Daíl will not remember Seań Keegan. When sonal achievement. It is a great tribute to Seań we look back through the Daíl records and see Keegan to have enjoyed the support of the people the names of those who served in this House from of Longford-Westmeath over time. whatever part of the country or whatever party, I did not know Seań Keegan, but I knew of sometimes the names do not jump out at us him. In the early part of my life as a trade union because of the service of years gone by. From this official I remember attending meetings in places side of the House someone who passes away and like Burlington Klopman in Longford, with drain- who was a staunch member of the Fine Gael age workers in Mullingar and Ericsson in Party would be referred to as a true blue, which Athlone, and hearing people talk of Seań Keegan has connotations from different years. It could and what he had done to help them. No greater always be said of the late Seań Keegan that he tribute can be paid to a public representative than was a true Fianna Faíl supporter, absolutely rigid to be spoken of in such high terms by the people in his belief about Fianna Faíl’s core values in he or she represents. Although I did not know what it stood for. He was never afraid to express him, Seań Keegan was always spoken of very those views and if one got him primed up at the highly by the people he represented. I extend the right time one would get a demonstration of the sympathy of the Labour Party to Mary Keegan defence of Fianna Faíl in all circumstances. and her family on their personal loss. I also extend our sympathy to Fianna Faíl on its politi- I recall Seań Keegan, both as a Senator and as cal loss. Ar dheis De´ go raibh a anam. a Deputy. As in all Daíleanna there are particular characters who stand out. I recall, as I am sure Minister for the Environment, Heritage and his wife, Mary, will recall, the white suit in which Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): Ba he occasionally left Kilbeggan when coming to mhaith liom comhbhro´ n a dheánamh le muintir the Daíl. He attended a meeting of the joint com- Seań Keegan. While I did not know mittee on secondary legislation in Brussels, on 12 o’clock Seań Keegan, from those remaining which I was also a young recruit. The topic under in the House who served with him I discussion was the 50-mile limit and fishing rights, know he was very highly regarded and epitomised about which the Minister, Deputy Coughlan, will the very best qualities of public service and dedi- know. The senior official of the Commission was cation to his country and his constituents. He was giving a presentation on a fishing problem which a committed local politician who served the lasted for approximately two and a half hours, in people of Westmeath diligently throughout his the course of which several instalments of tea and long career in local and national politics. He strong coffee were brought in. The director served on Westmeath Council, in Seańad E´ ireann presenting the case for fishing rights was dunking and in this House following the 1977 election. his teabag in his cup for ten minutes. In absolute When he left the House in 1982, he remained exasperation the late Seań Keegan said: “Look, active in local politics. I would like to extend the as far as I can see the only fishing you’ve ever Green Party’s sympathies to Mary Keegan, her done is in that cup in front of you”. He said to family, the Fianna Faíl Party and Seań’s wide cir- me when leaving that room: “When we’re away cle of friends and supporters. Ar dheis De´ go from Ireland, we have to stick together”. Irres- raibh a anam dı´lis. pective of the depth of feeling he had for his party he still recognised what needed to be done for Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: I join previous his country. speakers in extending our sincere sympathy to the Those who have given the length of service that wife and family of the late former Deputy Seań Seań Keegan gave from 1955 until 1982 will Keegan. On behalf of Sinn Feín Deputies and our recognise it is a long period of public service. I Seańad representative, I also extend our sym- recall in 1977, as Deputy O’Rourke will, that it pathy to the Fianna Faíl Party on its loss of a was Deputy Seań Keegan’s surplus that elected long-serving colleague who clearly invested a former Deputy Albert Reynolds to the House in considerable part of his life in the service of the the first instance and all that flowed from that. I party’s development. I did not have the pleasure commiserate with Mary Keegan and her children, of knowing the late Seań Keegan but I accept all Gearo´ id, Tom, Nan, Marie and Nuala and with the fine references to his time of service. I extend the Fianna Faíl Party on losing a stalwart son. Ar our comhbhro´ no´ chroı´ don a clann uilig. Go nde´- dheis De´ go raibh a anam dı´lis. anfaidh Dia tro´ caire ar a anam dı´lis. 479 Death of Former Member: 10 October 2007. Expressions of Sympathy 480

Deputy Mary O’Rourke: I extend my sympathy and dedicated local politician who served his con- on the very sad death of their dear Seań to Mary stituents diligently and effectively. No matter was Keegan, her family and his extended family. He too small or trivial for him and the numbers who contested the 1970 general election and he attended his clinics were legendary because he entered the Daíl in 1977. He was a committed was always available. He was a hard working, member of Westmeath County Council for a long honest, decent man. number of years and he was a committed rep- He served on Westmeath County Council for resentative of the constituency, Longford-West- more than five decades, in the Seańad for seven meath, between 1977 and 1982. I was elected to years and in the Daíl for a further five years. Westmeath County Council and I remember Whether as a councillor, Senator or Deputy or as Seań best as the whip of our party. He gave many president of the Westmeath comhairle Daíl ceant- wise advices to me and other new members who air, he was ever present at Fianna Faíl functions. were straining at the leash because we wanted to He was also a valued member of the Midland get moving, we wanted to condemn everything Health Board where his farming expertise was a and we wanted to be up and at it. His wise advice major asset. Seań was a sincere, loyal man who was often heeded on reflection as being exactly served his community to the highest standards. what it was. He continued long after he had He dedicated his life not only to public service retired from public life to be very active in the but to his family. administration of our party at comhairle Daíl His wife, Mary, and his children are immensely ceantair level. His offered wise advice and was proud of him and his achievements. I offer them able to summarise issues that often cause great my condolences on their loss and I also offer my tension within political parties at local level. He condolences to the people of Kilbeggan and would always utter a remark that would lead a Westmeath who have lost a true friend and advo- person away from conflict and lead to more cate. I always found him to be a very courteous, reflective thinking about an issue. friendly man. It was always a pleasure to meet His greatest legacy is his wonderful family. His Seań and his wife, Mary. I have happy memories wonderful wife, Mary, throughout his public and of him and I thank him and his family. Ar dheis private life, was a source of huge comfort to him. De´ go raibh a anam dı´lis. She is a woman of great dignity and bearing who carried many burdens but never spoke about Deputy James Bannon: I wish to be associated them, particularly when Seań fell into ill-health, with the expressions of sympathy on the death of which he bravely bore. She is a stalwart and she the former Deputy and Senator, Seań Keegan, was such a help to him. All the members of their who represented my constituency. I sincerely family distinguished themselves in the calling extend my condolences to his wife, Mary; his chil- they followed with strong personal character. dren, Gearo´ id, Tom, Nan, Marie and Nuala; his While it is correct to remember those who served sisters; his brother, Father Tom, who lives in in public life who have passed away, they are Australia; and the Fianna Faíl Party. Seań was a often remembered on a personal basis. Seań and representative of Longford-Westmeath during a Mary Keegan’s greatest achievement is the won- political career that began in 1955. He was derful family they have and what they, in turn, elected chairman of Westmeath County Council have committed to the often public roles they in 1974-75; to the Seańad following a by-election perform. Many of them remain strong within the in 1970; and to this House in 1977 when Fianna Fianna Faíl organisation locally. I offer my very Faíl had a landslide victory. It was not as good in sincere sympathy to the Keegan family and I terms of seat numbers as our result in the recent hope these expressions of sympathy will be a general election but, unfortunately, we did not source of comfort to them. get into government afterwards. However, I knew Seań well as a colleague on Deputy Peter Kelly: I wish to express my sym- the old Midland Health Board. I recall many inci- pathy to the late Seań Keegan’s wife, Mary; his dents at board meetings. Seań was also a lifelong sons, Tom and Gearo´ id; his daughters, Marie, member of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Associ- Nan and Nuala; his sisters, Dill, Bridie, Ita and ation. One of the proposals he made to the health Sisters Gemma and Teresa; his brother, Fr. Tom board when anti-social behaviour increased and in Australia; his in-laws; and to all his other rela- law and order began to break down in a number tives and friends. May he rest in peace. midland towns was that all discos should close at I would like to pay tribute to Seań Keegan, a midnight. This did not go down well with many fellow Fianna Faíl Deputy for Longford-West- board members. On another occasion a few years meath. Seań was a committed republican and rep- ago, I took a stance on the dismantling of health resentative of the constituency in both Houses of services in the midlands. I was the only member the Oireachtas. His father was very active in the ever expelled from a health board but when Seań War of Independence and Seań was extremely left the room afterwards, he said to me that he proud of his republican heritage. He too believed admired me for the principled stance I had taken. passionately in Irish unity but believed it should That will go with me to my grave because he was be achieved by peaceful means. He was an active a man of principle. He was a great advocate of 481 Order of 10 October 2007. Business 482 law and order and his greatest passion, other than more difficult to manage and hence will become politics, was farming and country life. He more unsafe and more entrenched in gang cul- operated a successful farming business in ture, thereby mitigating against successful Kilbeggan. His family connections extend into rehabilitation and, in turn, leading to increased County Longford, where his daughter, Nan, lives crime through re-offending. on the outskirts of Longford town. Sean was an extremely hard working represen- Deputy Michael Creed: I seek the adjournment tative for Longford-Westmeath. Throughout his of the Daíl under Standing Order 32 to raise the political life and beyond, he was always willing to following urgent matter: the threat to the jobs of help his constituents and neighbours and he had the 7,000 persons employed in the pig industry, a long and distinguished association with many which is worth in the region of \450 million and organisations throughout Westmeath. He was a to the economy annually, and the failure of the principled politician and that is how I will chiefly Government to address, among other matters, remember him. He will be sadly missed by all the escalating cost of feed, the failure of the mul- who knew him within the community, which is tiples to pay a fair price and the need for a mar- lessened by his passing. Ar dheis De´ go raibh a keting initiative to promote consumption. anam dı´lis. Deputy Martin Ferris: I seek the adjournment Members rose. of the Daíl under Standing Order 32 to raise the following urgent matter: that Tralee currently has Requests to move Adjournment of Dail under ´ one of the highest rates of unemployment in the Standing Order 32. State at 14% with more than 3,000 people on the An Ceann Comhairle: Before coming to the live register, that this reflects the lack of effort Order of Business I propose to deal with a put into attracting investment to the town, and number of notices under Standing Order 32. I the need for the IDA as a matter of priority to propose to call Deputies in the order in which encourage new enterprises to establish them- they submitted notices to my office. selves in the area.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: I seek the adjourn- Deputy Simon Coveney: I seek the adjournment of the Daíl under Standing Order 32 to raise ment of the Daíl under Standing Order 32 to raise the following urgent matter: the fact that more the following urgent matter: the decision by the than 88,000 fixed charge summonses for motoring Government, against the advice of the Minister offences were listed before the courts during the of State with responsibility for European affairs, first six months of 2007, clogging up the District to take a eurosceptic approach towards EU pro- Court unnecessarily, and that new ways of col- cedures aimed at a common approach to cross- lecting these fines must be introduced, including border crime, against the wishes of 25 other EU the handing over of the collection of such fixed states and in line with the British approach, and, charge penalties to a debt collecting agency rather than resorting to the courts. in doing so, weakening our ability to influence policy on cross-border crime matters and damag- Deputy Denis Naughten: I seek the adjourn- ing Ireland’s reputation within the EU. ment of the Daíl under Standing Order 32 to raise the following urgent matter: that in light of the Deputy Charles Flanagan: I seek the adjourn- HSE ban on recruitment, which is having a ment of the Daíl under Standing Order 32 to raise serious impact on patient care, including the lack the following urgent matter: the recently pub- of supervision of a brain injury patient in Univer- lished report of the Council of Europe sub-com- sity College Hospital, Galway, who has already mittee outlining disturbing shortcomings in our fallen out of bed twice, and the possible closure prison system and the need for immediate action of wards in the hospital due to the lack of nursing thereon. staff, there is an immediate need for the Govern- ment to intervene before lives are lost. An Ceann Comhairle: Having considered the matters raised, they are not in order under Stand- Deputy Aengus O´ Snodaigh: I seek the ing Order 32. adjournment of the Daíl under Standing Order 32 to raise the following urgent matter: the shocking Order of Business. indictment of the Government’s failed prison policy contained in the report of the European The Taoiseach: It is proposed to take No. 2, Committee for the Prevention of Torture, which Charities Bill 2007 — Order for Second Stage and concluded that Irish prisons are unsafe for pris- Second Stage; and No. 3, Fines Bill 2007 — Order oners and prison staff, and the need for the for Second Stage and Second Stage. Private Government immediately to drop its plan to build Members’ business shall be No. 18, motion re fire a superprison at Thornton Hall on the grounds services (resumed), to conclude at 8.30 p.m. if not that by virtue of their scale, superprisons are even previously concluded. 483 Order of 10 October 2007. Business 484

An Ceann Comhairle: There are no proposals Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: Given that the to be put to the House. leaders of other EU member state Governments seem to take a personal responsibility on issues Deputy Enda Kenny: In respect of the legis- of road safety, will the Taoiseach adopt a similar lation that will be necessary for the referendum stance? on the EU reform treaty, has the Taoiseach had What has become of the Rosslare Harbour Bill, discussions with the British Prime Minister, which was on the cla´r for several years before dis- Gordon Brown, in regard to the Government’s appearing? Will legislation be introduced to give decision to opt in or out of certain provisions? I effect to the Government decision on Bremore made my view known on this yesterday. Port? When is the forthcoming constituency commission report expected to be published? Infor- The Taoiseach: The national road safety mation on the proposed electoral amendment strategy is being reviewed by the Government Bill, which is No. 40 on the legislative prog- and will be taken shortly. The harbours Bill will ramme, makes reference to changed procedures implement certain aspects of the port policy state- for the formation of future commissions. What ment of January 2005. The heads of the Bill are will this involve? Will the Bill deal with the dis- not yet ready but it is listed for next year. crepancies now evident in respect of local authority areas, particularly town council areas, Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: Will the throughout the State? Is it envisaged that this will Taoiseach give us a firm date for the publication be brought forward from some time in 2008 to an of the nurses and midwives Bill? Will he advise if earlier date? the heads of the Bill have come before Cabinet and, in line with his commitment last week, will The Taoiseach: The constitutional referendum he undertake to have the heads of the Bill pub- Bill will be brought forward some time next year lished for all Members once they have been provided that matters are finalised at the agreed by Cabinet? December European Council meeting. I understand the European constituency review The Taoiseach: The draft general scheme of the report will be published next month. I am not nurses and midwives Bill is at an advanced stage. ´ sure how far work has progressed on the Dail I will raise the issue of the heads with the Mini- electoral review. The report is due on the elec- ster and the legislation should be in the House in toral amendment Bill on 25 October and the the next session. legislation is listed for next year. Deputy Michael Creed: Will the Taoiseach Deputy Eamon Gilmore: When I asked the arrange for a briefing for the Minister for Agri- Taoiseach yesterday about the legislation he plans to have enacted in this session, one of the culture, Fisheries and Food on the Brazilian beef Bills he mentioned was the Tribunals of Inquiry issue by the three Fianna Faíl MEPs in Europe in Bill 2005, which is the Bill that enables and the belated hope—— empowers the Government to close down tribunals. I am sure the Minister of State, Deputy Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: Hear, hear. Sargent, will recall that when this Bill was initially published, the Green Party expressed strong Deputy Mary Coughlan: The Deputy should opposition to it. I assume substantial amendments ask his own MEPs. He would get the same answer will be presented by the Government to the Bill I got. to reflect the concerns expressed at the time by the Green Party. When is it proposed to publish Deputy Michael Creed: ——the Minister might those amendments and have them circulated to come on-side with the matter? She should sup- the House? port Irish beef producers.

The Taoiseach: I understand the Minister for An Ceann Comhairle: That is not relevant. Justice, Equality and Law Reform is consulting with various interested parties on this matter and Deputy Mary Coughlan: They got the same hopes to introduce amendments during this answer as the rest of us. session. The Bill is ordered for Second Stage. Deputy David Stanton: Is it still the Govern- Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: Ireland has one of the ment’s intention to establish a register of persons worst records in Europe for reducing road deaths. considered unsafe to work with children, as was While Luxembourg and France have achieved promised in the last Daíl? If that is so, under what reduction rates of 46% and 40%, respectively, legislation will it be done? since 2001, the corresponding figure for Ireland is 10%. When will the promised national road The Taoiseach: It is. These issues will be dealt safety strategy be published and debated in the with under the proposals for the upcoming refer- Daíl? endum on children’s rights. It will give effect to 485 Order of 10 October 2007. Business 486 the recommendations of the Joint Committee on The Taoiseach: Every second issue would Child Protection. require the use of the emergency brake and that was not its intention. On qualified majority vot- Deputy Joe Costello: I presume the Taoiseach ing, with the British having put forward their will go to Brussels on Thursday and Friday of position — which the Deputy knows is different next week for the summit of Heads of State and from that in 2004 — we have to protect our posi- that he will sign the new draft proposals of the tion. In a limited number of areas where QMV EU reform treaty while there. We are the only would operate and which would be against the country that will hold a referendum on the issue. Irish interest, we would have to opt out. In the There are some controversial matters, not least vast majority of cases I do not see any require- the charter of fundamental rights and the pro- ment to opt out. posal to opt out with regard to cross-border co- operation on crime. Will the Taoiseach provide Deputy Jim O’Keeffe: Will the Taoiseach give for a debate in this House prior to attending the an example of such a scenario? summit? Deputy Billy Timmins: Will the Taoiseach Deputy Simon Coveney: Hear, hear. arrange for a briefing for the relevant Opposition spokespersons on that topic? The Taoiseach: I do not believe there is a provision to make time. The committee responsible The Taoiseach: I will. for European affairs has not yet been set up. Deputy Michael D. Higgins: Apart from the Deputy Joe Costello: That is another reason to issues of QMV, the advantage of having a Daíl have a debate in the House. debate would be to address further fundamental issues of accountability. For example, the House Deputy Dan Neville: The Taoiseach should ask would benefit from knowing the role of the Daíl the Whips to do something about that. and Seanad in light of the treaty in terms of accountability and the deficit which exists, for The Taoiseach: We are trying to deal with it. example, on common foreign and security policy. Perhaps we will have a meeting on the issue The Taoiseach referenced the European affairs before the December Council meeting. committee. In the previous Daíl, the chair of the With regard to the opt-out proposal, I saw European affairs committee was in a different some references this morning that are not correct. position from the chair of the Joint Committee The current position is that justice and home on Foreign Affairs with regard to the sharing of affairs issues are dealt with through unanimity. information. I also suggest there is a continuing We are moving to a position of qualified majority debate in the European Parliament on voting, QMV. Most issues will create no difficulty accountability. for us and we will have a part in those discussions. There is also the matter of international foreign Certain aspects are fundamental to our legal policy where the European Union adopts a com- system, with some issues requiring the right to mon position. There are no mechanisms of protect our national interest. initiation, scrutiny or reporting back in that Areas such as police co-operation and many regard. The advantage of a debate is to at least other areas are not affected by this. We do not be able to hear such proposals as might emerge intend to opt out on police co-operation and we in the context of the new treaty. It is deeply dam- will draft a declaration which will be part of the aging to the European debate and the prep- agreement, stating our position very clearly. arations for it. There is what is referred to as a There is a misunderstanding of the British posi- “double deficit” in the current foreign security tion, but I am not here to speak about that. Our policy, which is a treble deficit if we consider the position will be set out in a clear declaration and failure of our committee structure here to be able there will be only limited areas on QMV. It is not to adequately access decisions which are, after all, a broad position. being taken. The Taoiseach is not misleading the House Deputy Simon Coveney: Could we use the when he is speaking about governments. The emergency brake for those? decisions have been taken by the executive in an intergovernmental context without adequate The Taoiseach: I negotiated the emergency accountability back to participating parliaments. brake and I know precisely what it does and does not do. The emergency brake would not cover Deputy Alan Shatter: Does the Taoiseach not those issues. agree that this is a classical democratic deficit in the way European matters are dealt with in that Deputy Dermot Ahern: We would be using it he will proceed to final discussions on this and with every issue. essentially sign us up to opting out in the justice 487 Order of 10 October 2007. Business 488

[Deputy Alan Shatter.] Decisions made in the Justice and Home Affairs and security areas without a detailed debate in Council were for many years based on unanimity. this House or a statement from the Government Differences exist not only in our common law setting out clearly the reason for the approach systems but also in the way we look at legal posi- being taken? Does he also agree that in the tions and how such positions are adopted. With interest of future debate on this treaty, there the British opting out, we were obliged to accept should be substantial transparency with regard to that we might find ourselves in an extremely why this State enters into arrangements subject weak position in particular areas where QMV to a referendum taking place? would operate. It should not affect many areas Does he agree the absence of such debate but we must recognise that legal issues might means that not only is there a democratic deficit arise that could be particularly unique or that in that no Member will in advance of the next could represent a serious change for our system. summit contribute to the discussion, but the Reference was made to 25 out of the 27 public will not be informed on the basis upon member states. The position in this regard is that which the Government is approaching what is a 25 of the 27 member states have different legal very important issue? systems. The Taoiseach should consider that this matter All we are doing is that in certain areas where should be urgently debated in this House, if not the Council would otherwise arrive at a decision tomorrow then next week. He should also on the basis of unanimity, we will opt out under acknowledge the huge importance of this country QMV. There are not many areas where that—— co-operating with all other European Union states in the fight against the drug barons Deputy Jim O’Keeffe: Will the Taoiseach operating across the length and breadth of the provide an example in that regard? EU, who are using this State as an entry point for importing drugs into the rest of Europe. The Taoiseach: The suggestion regarding the European prosecutor is totally at variance with Deputy Simon Coveney: The reason this side our legal system. That is one example but there of the House is so anxious to have statements or are others. As Deputy Jim O’Keeffe is well a debate on this issue is that there is much con- aware, that would affect our common travel posi- fusion about the fundamental difference between tion. As already stated, however, not many areas the constitutional treaty we were happy to sign up will be affected. We must have that protection and supported, and the reform treaty now being in place because otherwise the country would be proposed. This particularly relates to requiring placed at a disadvantage in a serious way regard- Ireland to be able to opt out. ing the limited cases to which I refer. There is There is also a contradiction in the Taoiseach’s total understanding in that regard. If the position statement today as he indicated he does not wish were otherwise, people would be far more to use the emergency brake procedure, which he puzzled. created in many ways, on a daily basis. At the We have decided to stand firmly with others same time he has stated that circumstances will countries in respect of the Charter of Fundamen- be rare in which we may wish to opt out. There tal Rights. I will arrange a briefing for any rel- is confusion and a great deal of concern. evant Opposition spokespersons. We gave careful There is much concern in Brussels, where our consideration to this matter and spoke to many MEPs work on a weekly basis, about the legal people in respect of it, including the approach Ireland is taking here as it is a depar- Attorney General and a great range of—— ture from the approach adopted in the past, which has been pro-European Union. Deputy Charles Flanagan: Were they the same people to whom the Minister of State, Deputy The Taoiseach: I have been in touch with Roche, spoke in connection with this matter? people involved in this in other countries and there is a total understanding of the Irish position The Taoiseach: The Government has a clear so it is not correct that there is great concern. view on this issue. We are of the opinion that the best course of action is to make a declaration. We Deputy Simon Coveney: There is not total will prepare the latter in the coming days and I understanding. will outline its contents next week when our deliberations on this matter are complete. Deputy Alan Shatter: Nobody in this country understands it. Deputy Joe Costello: I do not think the Taoiseach answered my question. I was merely The Taoiseach: The Deputy, having asked a seeking a debate on the matter and not just a question, does not listen to the answer. That is a briefing of the spokespersons or an outlining of bad habit. The difference is that the British the contents of the declaration. There is no Joint changed their position from the 2004 position. Committee on European Affairs in place and, as 489 Order of 10 October 2007. Business 490 such, Oireachtas scrutiny is absent. The Execu- The Taoiseach: As stated at the outset, the tive is to travel to Brussels at the end of next Government made a decision to prepare a declar- week where it will either sign up or not sign up ation and it will do so. That declaration is consist- to the new reform treaty. We are not sure of what ent with our position throughout but it takes will be the exact details and we will not have an account of the changed circumstances, partic- opportunity to debate the declaration that will be ularly in the context of what the UK Government drafted for the Taoiseach in the coming days. decided at the June European Council meeting. Why not engage in a full debate on the issue in There is no divergence of opinion among the the House next week? Ireland is the only country Departments of Justice, Equality and Law that will be holding a referendum on the new Reform and Foreign Affairs, the Minister of European reform treaty and it would be foolish State, Deputy Roche, or anyone else. We for the Government to sign up to it without first engaged in a comprehensive examination of what hearing the views of Members. is the right thing to do regarding the reform treaty in order to ensure we will not find ourselves in a position where, in the limited circum- Deputy Alan Shatter: I agree with the previous stances where the it arises, decisions that would speaker. Will the Taoiseach not acknowledge that not be in the interests of this country or its legal it is completely unsatisfactory that a private brief- system would be made on the basis of unanimity. ing, away from the public gaze, will be provided We are also of the view that, on foot of the by a civil servant to a few select Members? Does decision made by Britain, there should be an he agree that in any democratic society with a alternative available. That is the only change. parliamentary system such as that which obtains We decided not to follow what others are doing here, it is only appropriate that matters of this in respect of the Charter of Fundamental Rights nature be dealt with and debated openly in Par- in the context of opting out. We are remaining liament? Does he further agree that adopting completely in as regards the charter. such a process would make an important contri- This matter has been considered at great length bution in the context of the future public debate by many people. A debate on it will be required that will take place on asking the people to at the forthcoming Council and I have no diffi- approve the treaty by way of referendum? Is he culty with this because I want the support of the of the view that it is damaging to deal with House on it as we move towards a referendum. matters of this significance behind closed doors? Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Last week and The Taoiseach: I must look to the Leader of again this week—— the Opposition in this regard. I replied to a question from a member of his party. If Deputy Deputy Joe Costello: Can we take it that—— Kenny makes a request to me, I will consider it. An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Durkan is in Deputy Enda Kenny: The Taoiseach can take possession. it that I will make a request for a formal debate, which could probably be held on Tuesday next. Deputy Joe Costello: Can we take it that a for- There seems to be a particular attitude or percep- mal debate on the previous matter under dis- tion emanating from the Department of Justice, cussion will be held next week? Equality and Law Reform. The former Minister, Mr. McDowell, had a particular view of the com- An Ceann Comhairle: A request for such a mon law versus the civil law and for that reason debate is to be formally made. he was stringently opposed to opting in and wanted to opt out. This perception appears again Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Last week and again this week I received a courteous note from to be emanating from the Department, whereas the Ceann Comhairle’s office to the effect that a the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, is clearly of certain matter I had attempted to raise on the the opinion, shared by the Department of Adjournment regarding the development of Foreign Affairs, that Ireland should opt in. housing sites at Leixlip, County Kildare, is not As the Taoiseach is aware, the emergency the responsibility of the relevant Minister. I have brake, which operates in a small number of cases, discovered, however, that a request for specific must be referred to the Council, where consensus funding for the project in question is on the Mini- is required. We will seek a formal debate, in ster’s desk awaiting a decision. The Ceann Comh- respect of which the Whips may agree the details. airle will not be surprised if I impose upon his I take it the Government will not sign off com- courtesy tomorrow and seek to raise the matter pletely on anything until Members on all sides again. have had the opportunity to express their The second issue to which I wish to refer opinions and views on what is an important issue relates to the designated land (housing for the people. development) Bill. I seem to have obtained the 491 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage 492

[Deputy Bernard J. Durkan.] Deputy Simon Coveney: This directly contra- notion from some quarter that this legislation dicts the answer we received last week, which was might be published before Christmas. It is prom- that the Department of Communications, Energy ised for 2008. Will the Taoiseach provide some and Natural Resources was responsible. That indication as to its progress and whether its publi- would be borne out by the evidence on the list cation date has been brought forward? for upcoming legislation where there is only one piece of sea fisheries legislation, which comes The Taoiseach: The heads have been approved under the Department of Communications, and the Bill is due early next year. Energy and Natural Resources. It would be helpful if we could receive some clarity in writing on Deputy Sea´n Sherlock: Is it the Government’s it. intention to reinstate the ground rents Bill? An Ceann Comhairle: We will move on to the Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Government Charities Bill 2007. I call on the Minister of State will have to resuscitate it. at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Pat Carey, to move Deputy Jim O’Keeffe: In the wake of the that Second Stage be taken now. storm.

The Taoiseach: It is still not on the list. Charities Bill 2007: Order for Second Stage. Bill entitled an Act to provide for the better Deputy Seań Sherlock: When will it be on the regulation of charitable organisations, and, for list? that purpose, to provide for the establishment of a body to be known as An tU´ dara´s Riala´la Deputy Simon Coveney: On Thursday last I Carthanas or in the English Language the tried to establish which Minister is responsible for Charities Regulatory Authority; to provide for legislation relating to the sea fisheries sector and the dissolution of the Commissioners of Chari- received an ambiguous reply from the Tańaiste. table Donations and Bequests for Ireland; to Last week a ministerial order regarding safety on make provision in relation to the regulation fishing boats was issued by the Minister for and protection of charitable organisations and Transport. On the section of the Order Paper charitable trusts; to provide for the registration relating to upcoming legislation, the only Bill of charitable organisations; to provide for the relating to fisheries is listed in connection with establishment of a body to be known as the the Department of Communications, Energy and Charities Appeals Tribunal to hear appeals Natural Resources. We have a Minister for Agri- from decisions of the Charities Regulatory culture, Fisheries and Food and the Department Authority; to make provision in relation to of the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- fund-raising by or on behalf of registered chari- ment is taking control of coastal management. table organisations; to provide for the repeal of There is a great amount of confusion within the certain provisions of the Charities Act 1961; fishing industry as regards which Department has and to provide for matters connected responsibility for the sea fisheries sector. therewith. The answer I got last week from the Tańaiste was that it is the responsibility of the Department Minister of State at the Department of Com- of Communications, Energy and Natural munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Deputy Pat Resources, which would seem to be the case if Carey): I move: “That Second Stage be taken one also looks at its website. However, could we now.” receive some clarity on this point so that, for a start, the Opposition spokespersons know for Question put and agreed to. which areas they have responsibility but, more important, we know which Ministers are respon- Charities Bill 2007: Second Stage. sible for upcoming legislation? Minister of State at the Department of Com- The Taoiseach: There are different aspects to munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Deputy Pat this brief. In response to Deputy Coveney’s ques- Carey): I move: “That the Bill be now read a tion, the Minister responsible for sea fisheries is Second Time.” the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Charitable organisations impact on the lives of However, there are other aspects which are dealt almost everyone in Irish society. So many people with by the Department of the Environment, work in charitable organisations, fund raise for Heritage and Local Government, while the issue charitable organisations, donate to charitable of safety is dealt with by the Department of causes or are beneficiaries of charitable organis- Transport and the Marine. ations. The value of charitable organisations and charitable work cannot be emphasised enough, be Deputy Mary Coughlan: Deputy Eamon Ryan. it in Ireland or abroad. People in Ireland are very 493 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage 494 favourably disposed to charitable organisations methods; a charity appeals tribunal; dissolution of and are renowned as being among the most gen- the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and erous supporters of charitable causes to be found Bequests for Ireland upon establishment of the anywhere in the world. new authority and the transfer at that stage of its Yet most people in Ireland are probably not functions to the authority; transfer to the auth- aware that the charities sector in Ireland is largely ority of all jurisdictions previously vested in the unregulated. No charities legislation has been Attorney General by statute or common law in enacted in over 30 years. There is no body with respect of charities; administrative co-operation the specific purpose of supervising the sector or by the authority with statutory bodies on relevant the statutory powers to maintain a register of regulatory and law enforcement matters, both charitable organisations. As a consequence, there inside and outside the State; consultative panels has been a dearth of reliable information on the to assist the authority in its work and to ensure number of active charitable organisations, what effective consultation with stakeholders; and a their financial worth is or how they spend their review of the operation of the Bill after five years. funds. Ba mhaith liom aghaidh a thabhairt ar Chod- Much examination of and research into the anna eágsu´ la an Bhille agus mionchuntas nıós mo´ charities sector and the need for regulatory a thabhairt ar na cuspo´ irı´ ata´ i gceist le gach reform has been undertaken over the past 20 ceann acu sin. Ar ndo´ igh, nı´l i gceist go dtabharfaı´ years. This includes the Costello and Burton mion-chur sıós ar an meíd ata´ i ngach uile alt. reports in 1990 and 1996, respectively; the 2002 Tugann an meabhrańmıńiu´ chaín, mar a foilsıódh Law Society report; and the Arthur Cox-led leis an mBille, eolas nıós mine faoi na fora´lacha review in 2002. sin. Beidh deis ag Comhaltaı´, ar ndo´ igh, All this time, the charities sector, as a tradition- mionscru´ du´ a dheánamh ar na fora´lacha de reír ally largely cash based, voluntary enterprise, has mar a theánn an Bille chun cinn sa Teach seo. been left vulnerable to potential abuse by The Bill is divided into seven parts, comprising unscrupulous individuals and organisations. It is 85 sections and two Schedules. As well as fairly a testament to the commitment and integrity of standard provisions such as commencement, charitable trustees that incidents of such abuse regulations, offences, repeals, etc., Part 1 of the have been few and far between over the years. Bill contains a number of key new provisions. In Nonetheless, it could be argued that it might take section 2 on interpretation, certain words and only one major such scandal to undermine public terms used in the Bill are defined. Of particular confidence. This would result in a fall off in interest is the definition of a “charitable organis- donations to charities generally, which, ulti- ation” and, conversely, “excluded bodies” for the mately, would affect those who benefit from the purposes of the Bill. The latter includes political superb work these organisations carry out. For parties, chambers of commerce, trades unions or this reason, quality regulation of the sector will employers’ representative organisations and ter- be of huge benefit both to the charitable organis- rorist or other unlawful organisations. Sporting ations and to the donating public. bodies, as defined under the Taxes Consolidation In this context, the Government is committed Act 1997, for which a separate tax exemption to protecting both charitable organisations and regime exists, will also be “excluded bodies”. This the public interest by reforming the law to ensure will ensure congruence with the approach accountability and to protect against abuse of adopted by the Revenue Commissioners in charitable status and fraud through the Bill we determining what constitutes a charity for the have before us here today.The Bill, together with purpose of granting charitable tax exemption. the Charities Acts of 1961 and 1973 and the To be a “charitable organisation”, a body must Street and House to House Collections Act 1962, be engaged exclusively in “charitable purposes”. as amended, will provide for a composite regulat- Section 3 — Charitable Purpose — defines “char- ory framework for charitable organisations. itable purposes” for the first time in primary Irish There will be a combination of new legislative legislation. A purpose is regarded as charitable if provisions and retention of existing charities its aim is the prevention or relief of poverty or legislation, with updating, where appropriate. economic hardship, the advancement of edu- Key aspects of the Bill will provide for a defini- cation, the advancement of religion or any other tion of “charitable purpose” for the first time in “purpose that is of benefit to the community”. primary legislation; a new regulatory authority to The last category, “purpose that is of benefit to secure compliance by charities with their legal the community”, is the broadest category. Like obligations and also to encourage better admini- the other three categories, it is founded on the stration of charities; a register of charities in original 17th century “Pemsel” categories, which all charities operating in the State must although the definition proposed in the Bill register; annual activity reports by charities to the reflects contemporary interpretations. There is a new authority; updating the law relating to fund- particular focus on community welfare and raising, particularly in respect of collections by development, volunteerism and civic responsi- way of direct debits and similar non-cash bility, promotion of health, the advancement of 495 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage 496

[Deputy Pat Carey.] trusts and will be able to engage with the sector conflict resolution or reconciliation and the pro- through consultative panels. motion of religious or racial harmony. Other A major provision in section 13 is the auth- activities considered to be of benefit to the com- ority’s requirement to establish and maintain a munity include the protection of the natural register of charitable organisations that will be environment; the prevention or relief of suffering accessible to the general public. This will have a of animals; the advancement of the arts, culture, significant positive impact on public confidence, heritage and sciences; and the integration into as the public will henceforth be able to indepen- society of those who are disadvantaged. dently verify the bona fides of charitable organ- These purposes broadly reflect the categories isations. used by the Revenue Commissioners in determin- Part 2 contains several standard provisions ing eligibility for certain tax exemptions and relating to the financial operations of the auth- reliefs for charitable organisations. It should be ority in sections 15 to 17, inclusive. Sections 18 to noted, however, that in section 7, determinations 22, inclusive, deal with the chief executive, section of eligibility for certain tax exemption on funds 23, the appointment of employees by the auth- applied for charitable purposes by the Revenue ority, and section 25, the provision of a superan- Commissioners are expressly decoupled from nuation scheme. determination of charitable status by the new The Bill provides that the Office of the Com- Charities Regulatory Authority. Such determi- missioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests nations will remain exclusively the function of the for Ireland will be dissolved on establishment of Revenue Commissioners. It should also be noted the authority. Section 24 provides that staff that a purpose will only be defined as charitable employed in the office of the commissioners on if it confers a benefit to the public or a section the day before establishment day of the new auth- thereof, although a gift for the purpose of the ority will transfer to the new body on establish- advancement of religion will automatically be ment day. There are also standard but important considered of public benefit. provisions in section 24 which guarantee, save in Part 2 provides for the establishment of a new accordance with a collective agreement nego- independent body, the Charities Regulatory tiated with a recognised trade union, that the ten- Authority. It outlines the functions of the auth- ure, pay scales and other terms and conditions of ority and contains standard provisions relating to employment, including superannuation benefits, the staffing, finance and accountability of the of such employees shall be no less beneficial than body that are generally consistent with those nor- those applicable immediately before establish- mally applied to similar statutory bodies. The ment day. authority will, in keeping with good regulatory Sections 26 and 27 allow for co-operation and practice, be in a position to engage with the sector on matters of importance. It will also be empow- information-sharing in suspected offences ered to co-operate with other regulatory and law between the new authority and the Garda Sıóch- enforcement agencies, both within and outside ańa, as well as with other regulatory and law the jurisdiction. The provisions of Schedule 1, enforcement agencies, including those based out- which I will summarise later, will also apply to side the State. In a complementary manner, the authority. section 31 provides a basis for administrative co- The key functions of the authority are listed in operation by the authority with other relevant section 13. The authority, although with strong regulators. Similarly, section 32 provides a basis regulatory and enforcement powers, will also for administrative co-operation with foreign have a supportive and advisory role for charitable statutory bodies on law enforcement matters. The organisations. The latter role will be particularly global fight against terrorism, including preven- important to smaller charitable organisations tion of the misuse of charities for terrorist financ- which constitute the majority of such organ- ing, provides a specific context for such adminis- isations. trative co-operation arrangements at The regulatory and enforcement role of the international and EU levels. The authority will be authority is aimed at increasing public confidence obliged to inform the Minister of any such in the charities sector. The authority will promote arrangements under these sections. compliance by charitable organisations with their I gcomhreír le dea-chleachtais, foraíltear in alt legal obligations and will be empowered to carry go gcuirfidh an tu´ dara´s, i ngach treímhse trı´ bli- out investigations where breaches of the legis- ana, raíteas straiteíse os comhair an Aire don tre´- lation are suspected. imhse trı´ bliana da´r gcionn. Leagfaidh an tAire, Provision is made for non-binding administra- chomh luath agus ata´ se´ indeánta tar eís do tive co-operation on regulatory matters with raíteas straiteíse a bheith curtha faoi bhraíd, co´ ip other regulatory bodies and foreign statutory den raíteas sin os chomhair an Oireachtais. bodies on law enforcement. The authority will Chomh maith leis sin, feáchfaidh an tu´ dara´s also provide guidance to charitable organisations, chuige go bhfoilseofar an raíteas straiteíse ar an encourage better administration of charitable Idirlıón. 497 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage 498

Section 29 contains standard provisions relating tain books of accounts. They will have to produce to the keeping and auditing of accounts and fin- to the authority on an annual basis such infor- ancial statements by the authority, which shall be mation as may be prescribed by regulations made subject to the scrutiny of the Comptroller and by the Minister. It is proposed that annual Auditor General. After the accounts have been accounts will be subject either to audit, for larger audited, as with the strategy statement, a copy of organisations, or to independent examination for the accounts must be laid before the Oireachtas, those organisations with an income or expendi- as must any report of the Comptroller and Audi- ture of less than \100,000 per annum. tor General. An annual report on its performance In the case of the latter, the authority will have during the preceding year must be provided by a reserve power to request full audited accounts the authority to the Minister under section 30. As from any organisation, irrespective of its income with the strategy statement and accounts, the or expenditure, where the authority considers it report must also be laid before the Oireachtas necessary. It will be an offence for an organis- and published on the Internet. ation not to comply with these accounting Is do´ igh liom gur feídir a ra´ le fı´rinne go raibh requirements. The authority will be empowered leibheál ard comh-chomhairliu´ chaín ann in to appoint a person to audit the accounts of a ullmhu´ na reachtaıóchta seo. I gcomhreír leis sin, charitable organisation that has not complied and ta´ foraíl sonrach sa Bhille feín maidir le pro´ isis recoup the costs of such an audit from the body comhairliu´ chaín. Mar a luadh nıós tu´ isce, tugtar in question. suntas ar leith don u´ dara´s a bheith ag glacadh As well as accounting obligations, all registered comhairle le paírtithe leasmhara a d’fheádfadh charitable organisations will be obliged to eífeacht a bheith a´ himirt orthu agus a chuid provide annual activity reports to the authority. feidhmeanna a´ ngnıómhu´ ag an u´ dara´s. Ta´ foraíl In the case of organisations which are already ar leith in alt 33 do chomhairliu´ chańda´ leitheíd. obliged to provide annual reports to the Compan- Leagtar amach in alt 34 na sonraı´ maidir le pro´ - ies Registration Office, CRO, discussions iseas comhairliu´ chaín mar sin, a dheánfar trı´ between the Department and the CRO continue bhunu´ paineíl comhairliu´ chaín ag an u´ dara´sle with the aim of ensuring dual reporting is tearmaı´ tagartha sonracha leagtha sıós ag an avoided. I expect to address this matter on Com- ´ ´ ´ udarasfein. Faoi alt 35, beidh cumhacht ag an mittee Stage through the introduction of appro- Aire a iarraidh go mbuno´ far paineál comhairliu´ - priate amending provisions. chaín ar leith. In general, annual reports and accounts submit- The Attorney General has had a role as the ted to the authority will be made available for protector of charities, which can, inter alia, entail inspection by the public. This will allow potential bringing legal proceedings in defence of chari- supporters of charitable causes the opportunity to table organisations, participating in proceedings make more informed choices as regards their brought by others, or carrying out certain roles under the Charities Act 1961. With a new statu- donations. I do not consider, however, that the tory authority in place with strong powers and a same public interest applies to private charitable strong supportive and advisory ethos, it has been trusts that do not fundraise from the public. It is agreed that such a role would no longer be neces- not intended, therefore, that information pro- sary. Therefore, section 36 transfers all the func- vided by such organisations to the authority will tions relating to charitable organisations or chari- be available to the public generally. To do other- table trusts that were previously vested in the wise might serve to discourage involvement in Attorney General to the authority. The former philanthropy, which is not the intent of the Attorney General, Mr Rory Brady, SC, took a legislation. very proactive and hands-on role in the prep- Continuing with public confidence measures, aration of this legislation and I express our grati- section 48 outlines the circumstances under which tude to him. a person ceases to be qualified to be a charity In Part 3, which deals with the regulation of trustee. These include, for example, where an charitable organisations, certain responsibilities individual is convicted of an indictable offence, or are placed on charitable organisations designed is adjudicated bankrupt. The person disqualified to ensure adherence to good administrative prac- may appeal to the High Court against such a dis- tices. It should be noted there is a graduated qualification. The authority will maintain a regis- approach so as not to place an unmanageable ter of persons who have ceased to be qualified for administrative burden, which may create undue the position of charity trustee. It will be an difficulties for smaller charitable organisations in offence for a member of staff or a charity trustee terms of compliance. This approach is consistent of a charitable organisation to accept a direction with the proportionate regulation principle of from a person whom they are aware is disquali- better regulation. fied from being a charity trustee. A person con- Charitable organisations, apart from charities victed of acting as a charity trustee when not that are bodies corporate and are already subject qualified to do so, or who knowingly acts on the to the Companies Acts, will be required to main- direction of a person not so qualified, will be per- 499 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage 500

[Deputy Pat Carey.] appeals mechanism to be known as the charity sonally liable for any debts arising to the organis- appeals tribunal. This again is in recognition of ation as a consequence of his or her actions. the fact that the majority of charitable organis- Part 3 provides that persons in specific categor- ations are small and with limited resources. For ies of employment, such as auditors or trustees, these, access to the High Court might place a sig- for example, who have reasonable cause to nificant strain on resources. This dispute resol- believe that an offence under the Criminal Justice ution mechanism is intended to be accessible, (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001, has been or affordable and user-friendly. is being committed within a particular charitable Sections 68 to 72 contain the related provisions. organisation, will be legally obliged to report this The five-person membership of the tribunal will to the authority. In any defamation proceedings reflect a balance between persons with a legal that might arise, a defence of qualified legal privi- background and persons with expertise relating lege will apply to any report published by the to charities. Its proceedings will generally be in authority relating to the state and conduct of the public and the Bill allows for the tribunal to affairs of a charitable organisation. establish its own procedures, subject to minis- Persons who report suspected breaches of the terial consent. Decisions of the tribunal may be legislation will not be regarded as having commit- appealed to the High Court on a point of law. ted a breach of duty towards the organisation, As I stated, it is proposed that the functions unless such a report is made in bad faith. This currently carried out by the Office of the Com- also applies to employees of the organisation. missioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests There are specific provisions in place to ensure for Ireland under the Charities Acts 1961 and that an employee may not be penalised by his or 1973 will transfer in their entirety to the new her employer for notifying the authority in good authority on the establishment day. Part 6, faith of a suspected breach of the legislation sections 73 to 78, contains standard provisions to within the organisation. ensure the smooth transfer of business from the It is important that a regulatory authority board of commissioners to the incoming should have strong investigative powers and these authority. are set out in Part 4, sections 57 to 67, of the Bill. The judicial and lay members of the Board of The authority may appoint an the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and 1 o’clock inspector to carry out investigations. Bequests, selflessly and without remuneration, Charitable organisations will be have provided an extremely valuable service free obliged to co-operate with any investigation. of charge to the citizens of the State over many They will have to supply all documentation years. At this juncture, I would like to put on the sought by an inspector or by the authority, with record of the House my great appreciation for all the exception of privileged information. The the hard work and dedication of the members of authority will also be empowered to apply to the the board. It will be some time before the new High Court for permission to enter and search authority is set up on a statutory footing. I am premises. Any report subsequently produced by confident that the board of commissioners will the authority will be admissible as evidence in any continue to fulfil its existing role during the related proceedings. interim period and will hand over its affairs to As stated previously, the Bill is founded on the the new authority in due course in a smooth and principle of reasonable and proportionate regu- orderly fashion. I thank the members of the lation and enforcement. In this context, the auth- board of commissioners, under the chairmanship ority will have the option, in certain circum- of the Honourable Mr. Justice Francis Murphy, stances, to take intermediate sanctions against an for their professionalism to date in all these organisation rather than initiate full proceedings. matters and again express my heartfelt appreci- Such circumstances might include a situation ation for the commitment and dedication demon- where an organisation has failed to comply with strated by the commissioners in serving the public its reporting or accounting obligations under the and the charities sector over many years. legislation. Intermediate sanctions might include Fundraising is complex because of the wide the removal of an organisation from the register range of methods it encompasses and the variety until it complies fully with its obligations. of organisations within the sector involved. It has In keeping with its role as protector of chari- evolved considerably since the passing of the ties, the authority may, where it considers that a primary legislation on collections, the Street and charitable organisation or its assets are at risk or House to House Collections Act 1962. Part 7 of in need of protection, apply to the High Court for the Bill contains necessary updates and enhance- an interim, interlocutory or permanent order to, ments to that Act to reflect the modern face of for example, suspend, remove or even appoint a fundraising. For example, in 1962, the primary trustee where it is considered to be in the best nature of fundraising was once-off cash-based interests of the organisation. collections. The concept of collecting promises of In the case of a dispute over a decision of the money through direct debits or standing orders authority, Part 5 provides for an extra-judicial simply did not arise. In 2007, this method of fund- 501 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage 502 raising has become very prevalent. It is of crucial work. All will be appointed by the Minister, with importance to charities as it provides a steady and the approval of the Government. This Schedule secure income for them, enabling them to plan sets out the processes relating to the appointment their operations over a longer term and in a more or removal of members of the authority. It sets strategic way. Yet, until now, this non-cash out how conflicts of interest are to be handled for method of fundraising has fallen outside the per- members and members of staff of the authority. mit system operated by the Garda Sı´ocha´na It also allows the authority to establish commit- under the 1962 Act and thus is potentially open tees to assist and advise the authority, or indeed to abuse. To address this, non-cash collections to perform functions that might be delegated to will be brought within a permit system for the it. first time, which will serve the interests of legit- As I touched upon earlier, Schedule 2 lists the imate charitable organisations and offer reassur- legislation that is to be repealed by the Bill. In ance to potential donors. essence, this only applies to certain sections of the The meaning of money has also been broad- Charities Act 1961. These repeals are necessary ened beyond mere notes and coins. Another given the proposed transfer of functions of the development in the area of fundraising has been Commissioners of Charitable Donations and the practice of selling items for a specific price Bequests to the new authority and, similarly, the as part of the street collection process. The 1962 transfer of charities-related functions formerly definition of collection did not cover this practice, held by the Attorney General. but this Bill will address this matter. Before I finish, I would like to refer to two The Bill will also tighten up particular elements issues that have been the subject of some public of fundraising that, in hindsight, were perhaps not comment. First, with regard to addressing in the adequately dealt with in the 1962 Act. For legislation the question of advocacy towards a example, it will now be an offence for a person political objective by charitable organisations, to make a misleading statement when applying practical issues arose concerning the protection of for a collection permit. Collection boxes will now charitable status for certain bodies which do good have to be sealed and clearly marked to show the work on the ground, such as those dealing with object to benefit from the collection and the families of victims of homicide or victims of registration number of the charitable organisation abuse. It has also been argued that many chari- in question. Penalties for breaches of the fund- table organisations legitimately engage in advo- raising provisions of the legislation have been cacy as a means to achieve their charitable pur- increased significantly from the 1962 levels. pose, though advocacy in itself is not their Methods of fundraising used by charities are principal object. Accordingly, it has been decided constantly changing and evolving. In this context, at this juncture not to provide for a specific pro- the regulation of the operational aspects of fund- vision in the Bill restricting advocacy by charities. raising does not fit well within the rigid con- With regard to the issue of legal forms for straints imposed by primary legislation. Princi- charities, Deputies will be aware that charities pally for this reason, the preferred approach as have the choice of a number of different legal regards the operational aspects of charitable forms, for example, unincorporated, such as a fundraising is to regulate through agreed codes of trust or an unincorporated association, or incor- good practice. These codes are being developed porated, such as a company, usually limited by at present with the financial support of my guarantee. The Law Reform Commission, in a Department in partnership with the sector. report published late last year, recommended a However, should this preferred approach fail to new legal structure for charitable organisations, deliver a satisfactory outcome, section 85 allows the charitable incorporated organisation, CIO. the Minister a reserve power to make statutory This has not been included in the Bill, however, regulations on fundraising. as the underlying purpose of this Bill is to ensure The above provisions, coupled with the power the accountability of the charities sector and to of the authority to require charities to provide protect against abuse of charitable status and information concerning their fundraising activi- fraud. It is not proposed to delay the regulation of ties, for example in their applications for regis- the sector pending consideration of the separate, tration as well as in their annual accounts and longer-term question of the CIO issue. annual returns, provide a strong though necess- I trust I have provided the House with a helpful arily flexible regulatory regime for fundraising overview of the intent and the content of the into the future. Charities Bill 2007. I advise Deputies that I will The first Schedule to the Bill contains pro- introduce some amendments on Committee visions relating to the legal status of the authority, Stage. the appointment of members of the authority and These will be mainly of a minor technical or the procedures to be followed by it. The authority drafting nature, although it is intended, as I have will have nine members, three of whom will have indicated, that there will be substantive additional a legal background, and the remainder will provision to ensure that the potential for dual include persons with experience of charitable reporting to both the authority and the Compan- 503 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage 504

[Deputy Pat Carey.] amendment will seek to ensure that when an ies Registration Office is minimised for charitable authority is set up it is answerable to the House, organisations that are currently subject to com- not the Minister. I trust the Minister of State will pany law. The Department is also considering a accept that amendment when it is tabled on Com- number of technical and other issues raised by mittee Stage. the charities sector. I want, first of all, to welcome the legislation. The Charities Bill is a result of a lengthy pro- We have talked about it for some 20 years. Every- cess, involving extensive consultation across a one who is involved in charities will welcome it. wide and diverse sector. The approach being In one way it is sad that we need charities in this adopted has been broadly welcomed by the sector country. We should not need them if Govern- and the public. The input and support from rep- ments were doing their job. If the State provided resentative bodies and charities practitioners has the funding and we had a just society, we would very much informed the content of the Bill. I not have wheelchair associations and different should like to formally express my appreciation groups such as the St. Vincent de Paul Society to the sector for its contribution throughout the and others collecting money on the streets. That drafting and consultation process to date. In pass- is why charitable organisations are needed. ing, I want to pay tribute to my predecessor, the I offer thanks to those who work in charitable Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, who did a organisations, people who participate in a volun- good deal of work as regards preparing this Bill. tary capacity, who do not look for money but The Bill is a comprehensive document and rep- want to help their fellow human beings. I am resents a considerable achievement. However, it thankful for the community spirit that exists in can only be enhanced by well-intentioned debate this country. The Irish are the most generous of and discussion. In this context I am committed to peoples. Anytime there was a crisis outside engaging in a full debate and review of the draft Ireland the Irish people have responded. legislation in its passage through the Houses. However, they do not like to be ripped off by Finally, I recognise it is important to underpin people collecting money for charity who put it in civil society and I believe that charities deserve their back pocket. That is why I welcome this a proportionate, modern statutory framework. I legislation. I shall be glad to see that we have consider that this Bill, when enacted, will deliver regulations, a permit system in place and that a regulatory framework worthy of the sector, I charities will have to be registered at the end of commend the Bill to the House and look forward each year regardless of what moneys they collect. to hearing the views of Deputies. The general public can check with the authority on how much a particular charity collected, how Deputy Michael Ring: I welcome to the Daíl it was spent and where the money went. The Irish members of the Westport active retirement body people will welcome that. They want to know that and in particular a group from Limavady. I am when they give their money for charity it is used delighted to see them in the Parliament today. for that purpose and not taken away by some- They are very welcome and I hope they have an body else. enjoyable day. I know the members of the Limav- Another matter that annoys me is that every ady group have had an enjoyable time in West- weekend outside churches and supermarkets one port and they will enjoy themselves here too. sees people wearing yellow vests, with no identification, pressing tickets on people and asking Deputy Joe Carey: We all join in the senti- them to sign up either through direct debit or ments expressed by the Deputy. cash to some charity or other. One does not know what the charity is and nine times out of ten the Deputy Michael Ring: Fine Gael welcomes the identity of the person is not known. That is why Bill, in principle. I have some reservations with it is time that we had regulations for charity, to which I shall be dealing on Committee Stage. I know who is collecting money and what for. I have spoken in this Parliament for many years welcome that aspect in the Bill. and believe fundamentally that whatever agency I know some charities are concerned about a is set up by the Daíl, whether regulator or auth- few of the issues in the Bill. There is a reference ority, must be accountable to this House — not in the Bill as to whether a collection might be for to the Minister concerned, but to the House. I a political purpose. My colleague from the shall table the appropriate amendment on Com- Labour Party will table an appropriate amend- mittee Stage, asserting that any Member of this ment in this regard. It would be very wrong if House who wants to put an appropriate question legislation were to be introduced in the forth- to a regulator must be answered. I am sick and coming budget which was unjust to the poor and tired, as a Member of this House of being fobbed a member of the St. Vincent de Paul Society, for off as regards the National Roads Authority, the example, who lobbied to have it set aside were to HSE and many more agencies, when I question a later decide to take part in politics. That must be particular Minister and am told that he or she has addressed in the Bill. I know the Minister of State no responsibility for the body concerned. My will deal with it as quickly as possible because it 505 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage 506 would be appalling if some bodies were debarred charity he or she is collecting, if one can see his from being charities for the wrong reasons. When or her badge and if he or she is registered and that amendment is tabled I know the Minister of has a permit. State will accept it. It is important people can log on to the Inter- The heads of the Bill stated that a charitable net, which most people can use, to see what has purpose must include the advancement of human happened their money, how much has gone on rights, social justice and social inclusion and administration and how much has been spent on citizenship, and the advancement of the effective- the charity. People are looking for accountability, ness and efficiencies of charities. Will the Mini- which this Bill will provide. ster of State say why that provision has been There are some concerns, one or two of which removed and whether it was necessary? Charity I mentioned. A number of the organisations will is all about social justice and these charities fear speak to us before Committee Stage. This Bill is that they will be affected if that provision is not about regulation. We must regulate and have law reinserted. I ask the Minister of State to accept and order in this field. However, it is important the appropriate amendment on Committee Stage we do not over-regulate the charities. They are when it comes before him. doing a job and are dependent on volunteers in As regards the Bill, people in the charities sec- some cases and on people to help and back them tor are concerned that when the regulator is in up. It is important we give them the help and fin- place, he or she must have a clear role. I welcome ancial support they need. I hope that when the the appointment of a regulator but the purpose authority is up and running the charities will not of that office must be to regulate. He or she must pay for it. We hope the Government will pay for make clear what is expected from a particular the staff and that the authority does not pass on charity, not what the regulator believes it should the charges to the charities. It is bad enough that be doing. Charities are concerned lest the regu- these charities are in existence in the first place, lator interferes with their day to day business, and that they must fight for people who are not being that should not happen. treated properly by the system and that they must Another issue, which the Minister of State collect money to put into the system, but it would touched on in his speech concerns State agencies be wrong if the charities found themselves paying that get tax relief for charity purposes. There for the authority and its staff. I hope that is dealt should be two registers, one for charities per se, with by the Government. and another for the State agencies. Charities are There are over 19,000 community and volun- for the benefit of the community and the public tary groups in this country. What they need is because they collect charitable moneys. State more help than regulation. When the authority is agencies are obliged to carry out their roles, as being given powers, the job must be to regulate regulated by the State and in accordance with the and not to tell the charities how to run their busi- law of the land. There are 25 State agencies which nesses, which they must do themselves. The role will be affected by the legislation and they should of the authority is to investigate charities if they be in a different register from the charities. I ask are breaking the rules or if there is something the Minister of State to look at that as well. wrong. The people want to know that when they The Bill has received a broad welcome. For a support charities the money is used for the long time we have been seeking this type of regu- intended purpose. lation to ensure that moneys collected by chari- Fine Gael welcomes the Bill. Accountability to ties are spent wisely and used for the purposes the Daíl is important. I do not want to be a hyp- raised. As someone new to this portfolio I only ocrite so I must say that I am sick and tired of started to learn about the charities Bill within the powers being taken from the Daíl and being given past 48 hours. I compliment my colleagues, to regulators and organisations such as the Health Deputies Dinny McGinley and Jim O’Keeffe, Service Executive and of us having no say. I will both of whom had a major role in this area in not call a vote on Second Stage but I will put this the past. Both of these Deputies have strenuously issue to a vote on Committee Stage. I hope the pushed for this Bill to come before the House. Minister of State will accept an amendment that It is important the authority is put in place and the authority will be accountable to the Daíl the legislation is implemented as quickly as pos- rather than to the Minister of the day. sible. It is also important the public has confi- I thank the people who have worked hard for dence that the money they give to charity is used charities and to promote social justice and ensure for that purpose. The authority must be strong, those who are not well off are looked after and independent and fair to charities. There are two not forgotten by society. I hope the Minister of types of charitable organisations. There are the State will deal with some of their problems. It is national organisations with significant staff and important people are allowed to campaign for smaller organisations in communities with people social justice and that it is not regarded as politi- out collecting. They must also be protected by cal. If an organisation wishes to support a politi- this Bill. It is important that one is able to go up cal cause, it should be able to do so. However, no to a person collecting for charity and ask for what political party, candidate or organisation that is 507 Priority 10 October 2007. Questions 508

[Deputy Michael Ring.] regulation study group. It is largely supportive of outlawed in this country should be supported by the Bill but raised a raft of concerns, a lot of them a charity. minor, but some not so minor, in an effort to Charities have always operated within the law. provide an input to ensure the final product is the However, there have been problems in charitable best possible. organisations with which we have not been able The best way to handle this Bill is that after to deal, but with this regulation we will be able Second Stage — I have no doubt it will, in prin- to deal with them. The law will be on our side in ciple, have the support of all in this House — it ensuring people’s money is protected. should be referred to committee and that bodies I welcome regulation but I will have a lot more such as the charities regulation study group and to say on Committee Stage. I am glad the Bill other interested parties should be invited before has come before the House. I will raise issues on the Oireachtas committee to indicate their con- Committee Stage about which the charities are cerns about different aspects of it and their pro- worried. The public must have confidence when posals on how the detail might be improved. Only they give money. I am glad to see that organis- then should we proceed with Committee Stage. If ations will be registered and will have permits, that is done, there is a very good chance we will that their accounts will be examined and that they end up with an outstanding charities Act. will have to present them to the authority. It is important the facility is there for the public to see Debate adjourned. where their money has been spent. I hope the Bill will be implemented and that Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at the authority will be in place as quickly as pos- 2.30 p.m. sible. I hope the charities will not pay for the authority but that the Government will do so. I Ceisteanna — Questions (Resumed). do not believe we need an authority and cannot understand why the Department cannot perform Priority Questions. this function since there are enough civil servants. A person in the Department should be appointed ———— to perform this function. However, since the Government is opting for an authority, it is fine Archaeological Sites. provided it is accountable to the Daíl and not only to the Minister. 89. Deputy Phil Hogan asked the Minister for I welcome the Bill and will have a lot more to the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- say on Committee Stage. The people involved in ment the reason he made the decision to use his charitable organisations throughout this State are powers under the National Monuments Acts to glad to see this Bill. They want to see fair regu- make a temporary preservation order for the lation and to be able to work with the authority Rath Lugh promontory fort near Tara; if there rather than see it work against them. are implications for the construction of the M3; and if he will make a statement on the matter. Deputy Jim O’Keeffe: I compliment the Mini- [23019/07] ster of State, Deputy Carey, and Deputy Ring on the assumption of their respective portfolios. It Minister for the Environment, Heritage and has been fascinating to listen to both of them. Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): Largely, there seems to be much common ground Under the provisions of section 4 of the National between them on this Bill. This is a good Bill and Monuments (Amendment) Act 1954, a tempor- it is important it is accepted as such. What is even ary preservation order may be placed on a more important is that the democratic process national monument that appears to me to be in applies here to ensure that what is a good Bill immediate danger of injury or destruction. Such turns out to be an excellent one and, ultimately, orders are invoked as an interim protective an excellent charities Act. It is 45 years since the measure to deal with immediate threats to monu- last Charities Act and, therefore, this Bill is long ments and have a finite duration of six months. overdue. I recall Judge Declan Costello chairing Upon their expiration, such orders may be a committee which produced a report in 1990 — renewed or alternative measures to protect the 17 years ago — indicating the urgent need for monument in the longer term may be put in reform. I am glad that after this long period of place. gestation, the Bill has been produced. On the basis of the advice available to me, I This is a detailed and complex Bill with, as the was satisfied there was a risk of damage to the Minister of State mentioned, 85 sections and two national monument known as Rath Lugh, a hill- Schedules, one of consequence. I have a major top enclosure in the townland of Lismullin, suggestion to make in support of the points raised County Meath. Given its archaeological import- by Deputy Ring. After the Bill was published, a ance, I placed a temporary preservation order on detailed submission was made by the charities it on 28 September 2007. Prior notification of my 509 Priority 10 October 2007. Questions 510 intention in this regard was sent to the registered they have spoken on many occasions. Deputy owner of the lands on which the monument is McEntee knows Mr. Newman has an exemplary located, Coillte Teoranta. My Department will record in respect of heritage in the area and the engage with Coillte in the coming weeks to con- latter has spoken very highly of the Deputy. sider how the monument can best be protected in the longer term. Deputy Shane McEntee: He was well trained The site of the monument is delineated and in Nobber. defined on a map annexed to the order and is adjacent to, but outside, the lands on which the Deputy John Gormley: He probably was. He M3 motorway is to be constructed. was part of the Discovery Programme for quite a In the exercise of my statutory functions in the long time and it was he who came to me to offer protection of national monuments, I am con- advice regarding Rath Lugh. cerned to ensure that the construction of the Rath Lugh is on a quite large esker. Mr. New- motorway does not damage the monument itself. man’s immediate concern was that the construc- I am also anxious to ensure that construction tion works could undermine the esker despite its works do not destabilise the esker or ridge on being outside the road take. He also discovered which the monument is located and thus have the that the national monument was probably closer effect of causing damage to the monument. With to the road than had been anticipated. I took this this in mind, it is my intention to continue to into account. I was told by the Department that monitor conditions in the vicinity of the site of some of the growth on the esker itself could the monument at Rath Lugh to ensure that no undermine the national monument and this is damage occurs thereto. I have also asked my why I acted on the matter. Department to commission a report from an The Deputy knows quite well that the decision independent company of geotechnical consultants on the M3 was taken in 2003. My party was on the stability of the esker and I await their opposed to the motorway and this is a matter of report on this aspect of the matter. historical record. Some of my closest advisers attended the hearing. Deputy Hogan knows well Deputy Phil Hogan: I congratulate the Minister that I cannot, at this stage, do anything about the for the Environment, Heritage and Local decision but I can do everything I can as Minister Government, Deputy John Gormley, and his responsible for heritage, which title I take very Ministers of State, Deputy Batt O’Keeffe and seriously, to protect our archaeological heritage. Deputy Tony Killeen, on their appointment and I listened very carefully to what Mr. Conor New- wish them well in their roles. This is the first man said about Lismullin and to the statements chance I have had to do so. of the director of the National Museum of I asked the Minister whether the temporary Ireland, Dr. Pat Wallace. These two individuals preservation order he issued on 28 September were opposed to the siting of the road and share would have any implications for the construction my concern over archaeological heritage. That is of the M3 motorway. What is the position of the why I am delighted they are on board and advis- Minister and Green Party on the construction of ing me. the motorway in view of all the statements they made about it before the election last May? Deputy Phil Hogan: We are all in favour of Members of the Green Party, particularly Deputy protecting the heritage of the land and ensuring Ciarań Cuffe, called for the construction of the the existence of appropriate infrastructure to motorway to be stopped. Is the Minister in favour allow commuters to go to and from their places of the new motorway programme and has he of work and recreation. Were the issues to which further concerns over Rath Lugh that will further the Minister refers, including that of Rath Lugh, delay the project? not flagged by the national monuments section of his Department while the route appraisal was Deputy John Gormley: I thank Deputy Phil being undertaken a long time ago? Who marked Hogan for his good wishes and wish him well in out the site to allow the M3 to be constructed? his new portfolio. I also wish well the Labour Who will take responsibility for the fact that the Party spokespersons, Deputies Joanna Tuffy and Minister must issue a temporary preservation Ciarań Lynch. order at the eleventh hour? My primary function as Minister responsible for heritage is to protect our archaeological heri- Deputy John Gormley: I appreciate that the tage and this is what I intend to do. On taking Deputy’s party is in favour of construction of the office, I said I would not only conduct an archae- M3 motorway. It was a central plank of the ological review but also err on the side of caution Deputy McEntee’s by-election campaign. The regarding archaeological heritage. I appointed an construction of a motorway is a matter for the expert on Tara, Conor Newman, with whom National Roads Authority in the first instance. Deputy Phil Hogan might be familiar. Deputy The authority has said that, as far as it is con- Shane McEntee certainly knows him because cerned, there is no potential for damage to the 511 Priority 10 October 2007. Questions 512

[Deputy John Gormley.] The Government, largely through the Radio- national monument, but I, as Minister responsible logical Protection Institute of Ireland, has for for heritage, must act in the best interest of our many years committed significant resources to archaeological heritage. I said I would err on the assessing the extent of the radon problem side of caution and that is why I adopted the throughout the country and increasing public approach in question, with which most people awareness of radon and the health risks associ- interested in archaeology would agree. This is ated with prolonged exposure to high radon con- what people have said to me and why I acted the centrations. Householders, particularly those in way I did. high radon areas identified by the institute in its nationwide survey, have been strongly encour- Deputy Phil Hogan: In view of the significant aged to have their homes tested for radon and archaeological assessment of the route in advance to undertake remediation works where necessary. of any contract being signed or National Roads There will continue to be a focus on enabling and Authority involvement, who marked out the site encouraging householders to address monitoring to give the Minister and the authority the where- and remedial requirements effectively and econ- withal to proceed? omically. Details of the survey can be found on the institute’s website. The building regulations Deputy John Gormley: The matter is dealt with introduced by the Department in 1998 and by my Department. It has the best qualified staff updated in 2004 require all new buildings, includ- and they are doing an excellent job. I decided to ing new houses, to incorporate radon protection add to this by—— measures at the time of construction. Technical guidance on radon remediation techniques is Deputy Phil Hogan: They marked it available in a booklet issued by the Department, incorrectly. Radon in Buildings — Corrective Options, which is available on the Department’s website. The Deputy John Gormley: Not at all. They are Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland has doing excellent work. This is not just a matter of issued a guidance document, Understanding archaeology as it relates to the esker itself. Radon Remediation — A Householder’s Guide, which is available on the institute’s website, as Radon Gas Levels. is a list of companies that can provide a radon 90. Deputy Joanna Tuffy asked the Minister remediation service and offer specific advice and for the Environment, Heritage and Local recommendations. Government if, in view of the continued threat to the health of families from radon gas and the Deputy Joanna Tuffy: It is interesting the Mini- expert medical view that this gas causes many ster of State, Deputy Killeen, is now responsible deaths each year, he has plans for the introduc- for answering questions about radon. This time tion of a grants scheme that would assist house- last year, the former Minister, Deputy Roche, holders to take remedial steps to safeguard their would have responded to a question about the homes and install detectors that would warn matter. When the Green Party was in opposition, when high levels of gas are present; and if he will it joined the Labour Party in calling for the intro- make a statement on the matter. [22898/07] duction of radon remediation grants. The answer that has just been given by the Minister of State Minister of State at the Department of the is almost exactly the same as the response given Environment, Heritage and Local Government by the former Minister, Deputy Roche, in June (Deputy Tony Killeen): There are no plans to 2006. Given that it has had a policy of introducing create a scheme of grant assistance for reme- a radon remediation grant scheme similar to that diation of homes with radon levels that exceed introduced by Deputy Stagg of the Labour Party the national reference level adopted by the some years ago, has the Green Party engaged in Government in respect of houses. The Govern- any negotiations about this issue with Fianna ment’s approach, which is similar to that of the Fa´il? Deputy Cuffe of the Green Party said a majority of EU member states, is that our efforts couple of years ago that “there is a moral impera- are better concentrated on increasing public tive on the Government to assist those living in awareness of the risks posed by radon in the homes with high levels of radon”. He called for home. the reintroduction of radon remediation grants. The testing of houses for radon is a relatively What is the current position? Will the Govern- straightforward and non-invasive process. It is ment reintroduce the grant scheme I have also inexpensive, costing approximately \50. It mentioned? would be difficult for a demand-led scheme of domestic radon grants to ensure appropriate and Deputy Tony Killeen: There have been a cost-effective targeting of remedial action. Fur- number of studies on this matter. A study that thermore, such a scheme could require significant was conducted in a number of European coun- public expenditure and administrative resources. tries pointed out, inter alia, that people who 513 Priority 10 October 2007. Questions 514 smoke or used to smoke are susceptible to the first instance. We should tell them not only increased levels of danger from radon. As I said that a radon test can be conducted relatively inex- earlier, this phenomenon was partially addressed pensively, but also that advice about remediation in the 1998 building regulations. A cost-benefit measures is available. There is no consensus that analysis of the introduction of a grant scheme, radon remediation grant schemes have been suc- which was conducted by the Danish Government cessful, in addressing the worst cases, in those a number of years ago, suggested that introducing countries where they have been introduced. Most such a scheme would by no means be the most of the evidence suggests that the opposite has effective means of dealing with this difficulty. The been the case. Government has targeted its investment at ensuring people know about the dangers and can Electronic Voting. access a scheme of testing to enable them to establish whether they have radon problems in 91. Deputy Phil Hogan asked the Minister for their houses. Remediation measures are rela- the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- tively inexpensive in many instances. ment his view of the decision by the Dutch Government to abandon the use of electronic Deputy Joanna Tuffy: I would like to hear the voting machines; and if he will make a statement views of the Minister, Deputy Gormley, on this on the matter. [23020/07] issue. Given that his party has consistently called for the reintroduction of the radon remediation Deputy John Gormley: An official report has grant scheme, I would like to know if that recently been published in the Netherlands about remains his position now that he is Minister for the Nedap electronic voting system which is in the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- operation there. An official English translation of ment. The Minister of State mentioned that smo- the report is not yet available. The House will kers are at risk, but radon does not affect smokers appreciate that I do not propose to comment until only. I accept that smokers have a higher risk of I have received the report and had an opportunity contracting lung cancer if they live in a high to consider it. I understand the committee which radon area. According to statistics from the prepared the report was established after last Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland and year’s Dutch elections and that the Dutch Parlia- the National Cancer Registry, radon causes up to ment will discuss the report in early December. I 200 deaths from lung cancer in this country every am aware of reports of a recent court judgment year. There is a real health risk associated with in the Netherlands to the effect that electronic radon. To put it in context, approximately 70 voting machines should not be used in a mayoral people die from cancer of the cervix and approxi- election in Utrecht. I understand this decision was mately 800 people are killed on the roads each made on the basis of non-compliance with the year. The Minister of State referred to a Danish legal certification procedures governing the use study, but that is not a very good example of the system in the Netherlands. The case was because Denmark has a far smaller radon risk initiated before the committee’s report was pub- than Ireland. Seven European countries have lished and the events are unrelated. The House radon remediation grant schemes and the Radio- will recall that the final report of the Commission logical Protection Institute of Ireland has said on Electronic Voting last year concluded that the that such a scheme would be very effective in voting equipment chosen for use in Ireland could Ireland. Is the Minister of State aware that a be used subject to further work which was also study conducted by the institute found that radon recommended, such as the replacement of the remediation measures were taken in just 10% of election management software, the adaptation of houses in which high radon levels had been iden- the equipment and the undertaking of further tified? The institute has argued that the main end-to-end testing. As I have indicated to the reason for the low take-up is that such facilities House, I am considering the next steps to be are too costly for householders. taken in the electronic voting and counting project. I will take into account the commission’s Deputy Tony Killeen: The Government has report, any relevant findings from the Nether- decided to delegate this function to me, as well as lands, the need to maintain public confidence in some other functions. the electoral process and the provisions in the programme for Government relating to electoral Deputy Liz McManus: That is convenient. reform generally.

Deputy Tony Killeen: I am aware of some of Deputy Phil Hogan: I am surprised the Dutch the points made by Deputy Tuffy. We need to report on the ineffectiveness of the electronic vot- decide which scheme will produce the best results ing machines and the real need to scrap them has as we try to address these difficulties. It is not been translated into English by the Minister’s accepted that it is hugely important that we colleagues in the Green Party in the Netherlands ensure people are aware of the risk of radon in or the translators in the Department of the Envir- 515 Priority 10 October 2007. Questions 516

[Deputy Phil Hogan.] Deputy John Gormley: I need further evi- onment, Heritage and Local Government. Is the dence. I will not be bounced into a decision on Minister in favour of the electronic voting this matter or give a knee jerk reaction to it. I machines which were given a trial run in some would like electronic voting to work. After the constituencies a number of years ago and have recount of my votes in 1997, I was very clear that been criticised by the Green Party over recent I wanted electronic voting. years? The Minister’s party suggested his predecessor as Minister for the Environment, Heritage Deputy Phil Hogan: Why is that? and Local Government, Deputy Roche, should resign if he continued to advocate the use of the Deputy John Gormley: Electronic voting has machines. The State has spent \60 million on the capacity to deliver more efficient voting. The electronic voting machines, including their stor- Deputy is well aware how surpluses—— age. It cannot even get the storage capacity right at Gormanston Aerodrome. Will the Minister tell Deputy Phil Hogan: The current system could the House what he intends to do with the elec- deliver a different result. tronic voting machines, rather than hiding behind another Commission on Electronic Voting Deputy John Gormley: There are advantages report? and there are also possibilities of added value, for example, that people could vote from anywhere Deputy John Gormley: I have no intention of in the country and would not necessarily have to hiding behind any report. I said when I was in be in their own constituency. I would like to Opposition that I was in favour of electronic vot- explore these possibilities. However, it may not ing, in principle. I do not know Fine Gael’s be possible to do all of this. If I find that nothing stance, in principle, on electronic voting. We need can be done about these particular machines, we to ascertain whether electronic voting is effective will have no alternative but—— and whether we can gain public confidence in it. I hope the Department of the Environment, Heri- Deputy Phil Hogan: How long will that take? tage and Local Government can examine those matters, just as the Commission on Electronic Deputy John Gormley: I hope we will do it as Voting considered a number of issues in its quickly as possible. report. While the possibility of providing for a voter verifiable audit trail was outside the thrust Local Authority Housing. of the commission’s report, most of the submissions which were received related to it so it 92. Deputy Ciara´n Lynch asked the Minister was addressed in some detail. We have to exam- for the Environment, Heritage and Local ine whether we can give the public confidence in Government when the legislative framework will electronic voting, which is a matter that is being be put in place to enable local authorities to be examined by the Department. We have spent in a position to allow council tenants who live in approximately \51.3 million on these machines. apartments to be able to buy their home under a That is a lot of money and I am not inclined to tenant purchase scheme. [22899/07] throw it away. I would like to see electronic voting working and to see if we can modify those Minister of State at the Department of the machines. It would appear from the CEV report Environment, Heritage and Local Government that they can be modified, but to what extent? (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The local authority ten- A crucial question for me is whether we can get ant purchase scheme was first introduced on a added value. national basis in 1973 and the scheme in its current form has been in operation since 1995. The Deputy Phil Hogan: I think the Minister is try- current scheme allows tenants who have been ing to advocate something similar to what the resident in a local authority house for a minimum Fianna Fa´il Ministers did in the past — recycling period of one year to apply to their respective the machines. The Minister knows that the Irish local authority in order to either purchase the and Dutch jurisdictions are saying that this part- dwelling outright or acquire it by way of shared icular type of machine will not provide confi- ownership. Initial eligibility for the scheme is also dence in our democratic system. It will not ensure subject to purchasers not being in rent arrears. that the Irish people can vote and be confident Certain categories of dwellings, including older that their intention may be verified. In the light persons dwellings, maisonettes and flats or apart- of the Irish and Dutch experiences and the comments, are at present excluded from the scheme. mission report at his disposal, there is no need for Local authorities also reserve the right to exclude further evidence or reports. Will the Minister give certain houses from the scheme’s remit for an undertaking to the House that he will scrap reasons of good estate management, structural these machines and start the process on electronic condition or on the basis of proposals to carry out voting again? restorative work to the dwelling. 517 Other 10 October 2007. Questions 518

The Government’s statement on housing this matter, and I ask the Minister to bring it policy, Delivering Homes, Sustaining Communi- before the House. In the meantime, property ties, published in February 2007, indicated that prices have risen by 300% while people are wait- reforms are needed to the existing tenant pur- ing. The tenants are getting older and they may chase model to implement a more cost effective not be able to secure a 20 year mortgage sched- and equitable system, including the introduction ule. It would have to be this length if one is to of a scheme for the sale of local authority apart- pay off the mortgage by the age of 65. ments to tenants under certain conditions and Has the Minister considered putting in place a revised terms. ministerial order that can fast-track this process A social housing miscellaneous provisions Bill, while the legislative framework is being worked currently being drafted, is expected to be pub- out? If there are problems with the Attorney lished in early 2008. Work on addressing the com- General’s office, there is a ministerial provision plex legal issues relating to the tenant purchase that would allow this to happen. Given that the of local authority apartments is being advanced Minister’s predecessor indicated in 2005 that this in that context. issue would be finalised in the lifetime of that Government, it is completely unacceptable that Deputy Ciarań Lynch: This is not the answer I we are now being told it will be finalised in 2008. was expecting. My question very clearly asks when the legislative framework will be put in Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I want to ensure that I place. County and city managers across the coun- am not misquoted. The Office of the Attorney try are prepared to move ahead with the scheme. General is not causing a blockage. There are The legal difficulties to which the Minister complex legal issues that must be overcome. It is referred were worked out as far back as 2005. The incumbent on the Attorney General and on my city councils in both Dublin and Cork were part Department to ensure that, when the legislation of a working group which considered topics such is introduced, it will stand up to scrutiny. We as sinking funds and the regulations on the free- want to be absolutely certain that, when the legis- hold and title hold of selling these types of lation is introduced in 2008, it will be watertight. properties. The Minister in the previous Govern- The first issue the Minister, Deputy Gormley, ment gave a commitment as far back as 2005 that raised with me was that he had committed himself the legislative framework would be put in place to the introduction of this Bill. There is certainly in that period. What has happened in the ten no delay on our part. We are anxious to make years since 1997? progress, but we must be satisfied that all the legal complexities are addressed. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: A question, Deputy. Deputy Ciarań Lynch: Will the Minister of State bring to the House the legal advice from Deputy Ciarań Lynch: Can the Minister give a the Attorney General which states there may be specific date regarding when the legislative a difficulty with the Bill? framework will be put in place? Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: That information is Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: We hope the Bill will never published. be put in place in early 2008. There are very complex issues relating to it. The Government is com- Other Questions. mitted to introducing changes in the tenant purchase system. We must also take account of the ———— advice from the Office of the Attorney General. There are certain issues with which the officials Political Donations. from the Attorney General’s office are not satis- An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I remind fied. Officials from my Department are engaged Deputies that supplementary questions should in consultation with the Attorney General’s office last one minute and the Minister has one minute on this issue and it is hoped that this measure, to respond. among others, will be introduced early in 2008. I cannot introduce a system that will be found 93. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Minister for wanting legally at the end of the day. We want to the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- make absolutely sure that, when it is introduced, ment if he plans changes to the law governing fin- it will stand up in law. ancial donations to politicians or political parties; and if he will make a statement on the matter. Deputy Ciarań Lynch: People buy apartments [17164/07] all over Europe, yet it seems they cannot buy an apartment from an Irish local authority. I would Deputy John Gormley: The Agreed Prog- like to see the legal advice from the Office of the ramme for Government contains a commitment Attorney General, stating there is a blockage on to the establishment of an independent electoral 519 Other 10 October 2007. Questions 520

[Deputy John Gormley.] at local elections. No limits currently exist. Limits commission which will take responsibility for a should exist at local elections. I am sure Deputy range of electoral matters including, inter alia, the Tuffy has seen candidates spend obscene functions currently exercised by the Standards in amounts of money at local election time. This Public Office Commission relating to election needs to be addressed. The best fora in which to spending. The electoral commission will also address this issue are the electoral commission examine the issue of financing of the political and the consultative committee on local govern- system. I will be developing appropriate pro- ment reform, which I have established. I have posals in regard to the establishment of the invited a number of the Deputy’s colleagues to commission. take part in this process and three Labour Party In addition, the Agreed Programme for people are on the consultative committee. I am Government commits to publishing a Green happy to facilitate the Labour Party in putting Paper on local government reform. One of the forward their ideas. I believe they have construc- issues the Green Paper will address is the ques- tive ideas and I congratulate the party on its tion of expenditure limits at local elections. There initiatives when in government. Deputy Tuffy will are currently no such limits, although expendi- also see the Government taking an enlightened \ ture, as well as donations over a 635 threshold, approach to this matter. must be disclosed. I have set in train a process of public consultation prior to the preparation of the Deputy Ciara´n Lynch: The Minister is aware Green Paper and established a related consulta- that Mr. Justice Smith, chairman of the Standards tive committee. Work on the Green Paper should in Public Office Commission, has called for be completed by the end of this year with final increased transparency and greater scrutiny of proposals to be settled in a White Paper next party expenditure. Are these measures part of the year. Government’s legislative programme or are the I am satisfied that the proposals for the elec- organisers of the Galway tent safe in sending toral commission, together with the initiatives their deposits to book their space for next which will emerge from the Green Paper, provide August? an appropriate framework to progress our extensive and complex agenda for electoral and local Deputy John Gormley: It is not only Mr. government reform. Justice Smith who calls for scrutiny and trans- Deputy Joanna Tuffy: Will the Minister answer parency. The Warsaw based Office of Democratic the question I asked, which is what changes he Institutions and Human Rights was invited by the plans to make in the law governing financial Department of Foreign Affairs to observe this donations to politicians or political year’s general election. It concluded that the 3 o’clock parties? Will the Minister ban cor- Electoral Act, which governs election spending, porate donations, for example? The was rendered obsolete by its narrow scope. I am Green Party, in its election manifesto, promised aware of that. Much spending takes place to ensure adequate State funding of political par- between elections. By the time the election cam- ties based on electoral results and to ban corpor- paign is officially called many of the bigger spend- ate, institutional and foreign based donations. ers have spent considerable amounts of money. Deputy Ciaran Cuffe told a press conference that That needs to be addressed. The proper forum ending corporate donations was a core principle for this matter would be the electoral of the Green Party. What has happened to those commission. undertakings? The Minister now appears to be It would be regrettable for Deputies to dismiss saying he will replace the Standards in Public the electoral commission. It offers huge scope for Office Commission with another standards in reform. I have spoken to colleagues who have public office commission. He went on to speak tried in the past and failed to establish an elec- about local government reform, which has toral commission. It would be an enormous nothing to do with my question. What is the achievement to establish an electoral commission. Green Party position regarding the legal reform It would deal not only with funding but also with of political donations and banning corporate the question of the electoral register and other donations? matters which need to be addressed. Deputy John Gormley: Deputy Tuffy appears to be obsessed with the Green Party. I am Deputy Tom Sheahan: When and how will the anxious to get on with the business of Minister implement the result of the plebiscite government. and rename An Daingean as Dingle Daingean Uı´ It would be disappointing if Deputy Tuffy dis- Chu´ is? Will this be done by ministerial order, missed the electoral commission. Its establish- primary legislation or departmental regulation, or ment will be a huge advance. An electoral com- will we, perhaps, have another commission? The mission would deal with the issues she raises. result of the plebiscite is available. When will the There is a problem regarding expenditure limits Minister act on it? 521 Other 10 October 2007. Questions 522

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy is to social and affordable housing measures in 2006. be congratulated on his efforts but this does not The total number of social housing units com- come within the scope of the question. pleted by local authorities and the voluntary and co-operative housing sector in the first six months Deputy Phil Hogan: The Minister is happy to of 2007, at 3,167 units, is up 33% on the first six answer the question. months of 2006 and represents the strongest level of activity on the programme this decade. In Deputy John Gormley: The Deputy’s sup- addition, 450 new units were acquired under the plementary is unrelated to the question. rental accommodation scheme. Deputy Phil Hogan: The Minister refuses to Funding has been provided in 2007 to meet the answer. commitments in Towards 2016 to start or acquire 9,000 units of social housing. This will be through Deputy John Gormley: If he submits a a combination of local authority, voluntary and parliamentary question I will be happy to co-operative housing units and new supply under answer it. the rental accommodation scheme. Good momentum is being made in achieving these tar- Deputy Tom Sheahan: We do not have an gets, with 11,500 social housing units in progress answer. at the end of June 2007 While comprehensive information on the Deputy Joanna Tuffy: I do not object to an numbers applying for all affordable housing electoral commission. The Standards in Public schemes is not collected by my Department, the Office Commission does a fine job and if it were indications are that demand for affordable hous- given the teeth to do more it could be very effec- ing remains strong in certain areas, particularly in tive. However, the electoral commission is not a the greater Dublin area and near other major Minister, and only the Minister can introduce urban centres. In response, increased affordable legislation. The banning of corporate donations is housing activity is evident, supported in particular a core principle of his party. What legislation will by the continued increase in momentum under he introduce in the area of political donations? Part V of the Planning and Development Acts 2000 to 2006. Deputy John Gormley: Deputy Tuffy is correct Following a 20% increase in overall affordable in saying the electoral commission is not a Mini- ster. Last evening I heard much talk about the housing delivery in 2006, when over 3,200 units establishment of quangos. On the one hand she were provided, output in the first six months of asks me to set up a national fire authority — I do 2007, at 1,192 homes, is up 5% on the correspond- not exclude that possibility — while on the other ing period last year. In excess of 5,000 units were she seems to pour cold water on the idea of an in progress at the end of June 2007 and a strong electoral commission. It involves the Minister giv- focus on delivery continues to be maintained to ing away power to a commission but it is, never- gain further momentum towards the achievement theless, a positive and constructive idea. It will of the 5,000 unit target for this year. This is being transform the face of Irish politics and address supported by the work of the affordable homes numerous issues, including the question of politi- partnership, which has a particular focus on cal donations. initiatives to increase the supply of affordable housing in the greater Dublin area. Deputy Phil Hogan: People have tried this before. Deputy Ciara´n Lynch: The programme for Government promises that 90,000 homes will be Deputy John Gormley: People have tried and built in the lifetime of the Government, an aver- failed. I hope I will succeed. age of 18,000 houses per annum. The figures given by the Minister of State are below that. The Social and Affordable Housing. All-Party Committee on the Constitution 94. Deputy Brian O’Shea asked the Minister reported that local authorities could be empow- for the Environment, Heritage and Local ered by legislation compulsorily to acquire land Government the number of social houses and required for housing at an economic cost. Does affordable houses provided in 2006 and to date in the Minister plan to act upon this report and free 2007; the number expected to be provided by the up property for the affordable housing sector? end of 2007; if his attention has been drawn to the huge increase in the numbers applying for Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: The Minister does not affordable housing in some areas; the steps he is intend to pursue that matter at present. The taking to deal with the backlog; and if he will matter has not been examined by me to date. I make a statement on the matter. [22820/07] have been, since taking up office, familiarising myself with the brief. I will undertake to examine Deputy John Gormley: The needs of 14,686 the matter and to report directly on it to the households were met through the full range of Deputy. 523 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions (Resumed) 524

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] authority houses. Measures to address the prob- In terms of the Government’s overall strategy lem include the affordable housing scheme, in this area, it is important to point out that the shared-ownership scheme, the Part V option and, needs of some 140,000 households will be met in the future, the incremental purchase option. through the housing programme during the life- Local authorities have, up to now, had indica- time of the NDP. We are spending \21 billion on tive targets about which I am not happy. We have that programme. Some \18 billion will be spent now given them a three year programme within directly on housing and a further \5 billion has which to produce houses in their respective areas. been allocated in respect of rent allowances, We are underpinning those targets with funding mortgage supplements and the rental allowance and we will ensure those targets are met over the scheme, RAS. All of this illustrates the Govern- three year period. This is the right way forward. ment’s intention to honour its commitments to I was not happy that targets were not being met. the housing sector during the lifetime of the The three year programme and the underpinning development plan. funding will ensure local authorities meet the targets set by them. Deputy Phil Hogan: Will the Minister of State agree the housing strategies of each local auth- Visit of Northern Ireland Delegation. ority adopted some years ago are out of date? Will he also agree that no impact is being made An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Before proceed- in respect of the number of people on waiting lists ing with business I wish on my own behalf and for local authority housing and that what is behalf of the Members of Daíl E´ ireann to offer a required is new thinking on the part of the Mini- ceád mı´le faílte, a most sincere welcome, to the ster of State in the form of new proposals? Is the Right Honourable Mr. William Hay, MLA, Minister of State considering new proposals to Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I deal with the escalating waiting lists for houses in hope his visit will be fruitful and enjoyable. You each local authority area, many of which were not are very welcome. taken into account in the housing strategies agreed some years ago? Ceisteanna — Questions (Resumed).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I will take a ———— further supplementary from Deputy Ciara´n Lynch before calling on the Minister of State. Planning Issues.

Deputy Ciara´n Lynch: If anybody on the 95. Deputy Leo Varadkar asked the Minister affordable housing list is listening to this debate for the Environment, Heritage and Local it is because they are interested to hear how what Government if he has ensured that local auth- is being said will affect them. The affordable orities will not allow the creation of management housing list is increasing. This scheme was companies as part of planning permission con- intended to facilitate those on low incomes to ditions for traditional estates; and if he will make purchase affordable housing. The cost of purchas- a statement on the matter. [22746/07] ing a home in many areas, even under the affordable housing scheme, is quite expensive. The 142. Deputy Deirdre Clune asked the Minister Minister of State said he will report back to the for the Environment, Heritage and Local Chamber on this matter. Government when he will ensure that new pro- However, as Deputy Phil Hogan stated, the cedures are introduced for the taking of estates issue of housing output needs to be examined. into charge by local authorities; and if he will Cork City Council and Cork County Council are make a statement on the matter. [22747/07] operating two different systems in terms of administering and rolling out this scheme. Some Minister for the Environment, Heritage and local authorities appear to have problems in Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): I terms of processing the affordable housing propose to take Questions Nos. 95 and 142 scheme resulting in backlogs. Will the Minister of together. State address this issue? The Planning and Development Act 2000 sets the statutory framework within which planning Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: Two questions were authorities must take in charge estates. In asked. The Government has been innovative in addition to the legal framework, my Department terms of the provision of social and affordable has also issued comprehensive policy guidance on housing. A whole range of new mechanisms have the taking in charge of estates. In circular letter been introduced to address the problem. The PD1/06, planning authorities were reminded of introduction in early 2008 of the miscellaneous their responsibilities in this area and were asked housing Bill will provide further initiatives includ- as a priority to establish a policy on taking in ing, incremental purchase by tenants of local charge to be approved by the members of the 525 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions (Resumed) 526 authority and reported on to those members on issue on which we must move as swiftly as pos- a regular basis or at least annually. sible. For this reason, I will use every ounce of In July 2006, my Department issued circular my energy to ensure the matter is progressed as letter PD5/06 to planning authorities stating that quickly as possible. conditions requiring management companies should not be attached to planning permission for Deputy Terence Flanagan: I thank the Minister traditional housing estates, namely, estates of for his response. On management companies, I houses with individual private gardens, except in have tabled a parliamentary question in respect very specific circumstances. Such circumstances of certain estates in my constituency. This sector would include, for example, the maintenance of a is completely unregulated and people are being particular service or shared facility that is pro- charged on the double in terms of high prices for vided for residents’ use only, such as a homes and between \500 and \800 in manage- playground. ment fees, depending on whether they live in a The circular acknowledged, however, that the house or an apartment. question of who should be responsible for the This is a serious issue. There are huge delays maintenance of certain shared facilities in the in the taking in charge of housing estates by local newer type of mixed estate needed further exam- authorities. The management companies are ination. Accordingly, my Department established extorting money from people for up to ten years a working group, representative of local auth- in some instances. Will the Minister ensure the orities, architects, planners and consumer taking in charge process will be improved upon? interests to consider this issue and other issues related to the taking in charge of estates. The Deputy John Gormley: As I stated in reply to group considered the issue of responsibility for Deputy Hogan, this is a matter of great concern the maintenance of common shared facilities in and I want to ensure is sorted out. These diffi- residential estates including small open spaces, culties arose, as the Deputy will be aware, in the car parking and playgrounds. It also looked at context of the unprecedented building prog- issues relating to the completion of estates and ramme which took place here. Estates were the taking in charge process. The group has com- springing up like mushrooms all over the place, pleted its work and has produced suggested draft without, I acknowledge, proper facilities and policy guidance for my consideration. where the management companies in place were As indicated in previous replies to the House, exploitative in many cases. This is a matter I will carefully consider the draft policy guidance deserving of urgent attention and it will be on my in the context of the new programme for Govern- desk next week. The Deputy’s colleague, Deputy ment commitments in this area, in order to deter- Varadkar, has stopped me in the corridor on a mine the most effective course of action. I expect number of occasions and I would be happy to talk this process to be completed shortly. to him about this matter.

Deputy Phil Hogan: I welcome the Minister’s Waste Disposal. statement that the working group has completed 96. Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn asked the Minister for its work and will shortly report on it to him. Will the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- the Minister acknowledge there is ongoing extor- ment if his attention has been drawn to statistics tion in respect of this scheme which is being used produced by the Environmental Protection by some people to gather money for themselves Agency showing that a number of Ireland’s rather than as payment to maintain open spaces recycling companies are dumping up to 60% of in apartment complexes? waste from some of their facilities into landfill Will the Minister agree it is important legis- sites; the steps he will take to deal with this lation be introduced now to deal with this situation; and if he will make a statement on the important issue rather than dealing with it by way matter. [22814/07] of regulation in 2009, as recently indicated by him? Deputy John Gormley: I have seen the newspaper report which appears to be the basis for Deputy John Gormley: I have spoken to this question. The report makes it clear that the Deputy Hogan’s colleague, Deputy Varadkar, data includes the landfilling of unsegregated about this matter. I know he is genuinely con- municipal waste which cannot be recycled. cerned about this. I am aware that as a councillor The most recent national waste report, pub- he experienced firsthand many of the difficulties lished by the Environmental Protection Agency involved in dealing with management companies. states that the recovery rate for municipal waste I would like to reassure the Deputy that I in 2005 was 34.6%. This was almost four times received confirmation from my Department the equivalent figure for 1998, which was 9%. The before coming into the Chamber that the working recent media reports appear to suggest that waste group has completed its work and that its report management companies have reported even will be on my desk next week. This is a serious higher diversion rates to the EPA in respect of 527 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions (Resumed) 528

[Deputy John Gormley.] On the question of the principle of the polluter 2006 although this information is subject to analy- pays, I accept this principle and it is a core issue sis by the agency prior to publication. The for my party. We were always brave enough, national waste report 2006 will be published in when it came to making these decisions at local early 2008 by the EPA. The ever-increasing authority level, to say that waste charges were recovery rates being reported by the agency needed. The same cannot be said for the would indicate that municipal waste presented for Deputy’s party because I have direct experience segregated collection by businesses and house- of that where people—— holders or collected through civic amenity sites is indeed being diverted from landfill. Deputy Phil Hogan: The Minister should not I fully recognise that despite the improved be political in his comments. national recycling performance we need to continue to improve our performance. The prog- Deputy John Gormley: I will not be political. ramme for Government commits us to establishing new ambitious waste management targets Deputy Joanna Tuffy: Some of the Minister’s for maximum prevention, reuse and recycling councillors voted against waste charges. with a view to ensuring that we match the best performance in the EU with the objective that Deputy John Gormley: It is unfortunately the only 10% or less is consigned to landfill as case. Consistency is required because the prin- opposed to the current rate of 66%. The prog- ciple of the polluter pays actually works. We ramme also provides for a comprehensive review know now that more people are using the green of waste management planning which I have bin. The waste to which Deputy Tuffy and I are directed my Department to initiate. This review referring is the waste that goes into the grey or will ensure that our waste management plans black bin. reflect best international practice and that we An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister has have the policies and infrastructure to meet one minute for answers to Other Questions and ambitious environmental objectives. he has already taken up two minutes in this segment. Deputy Joanna Tuffy: The Minister is aware of the statistics which are referred to in the question Deputy John Gormley: I will be happy to con- but he has not stated the steps he intends taking. tinue because there is an important point to be Many of the companies involved in sending as made. much as 60% of waste to landfill are the big waste companies such as Oxygen, Thornton and Panda. Deputy Terence Flanagan: What measures will There is big money to be made by waste recycling the Minister consider to stop quarries from companies who are enjoying huge profit margins extracting contaminated stone which is used in as private companies are entitled to do. This landfill and housing and which is a significant Minister is a member of the Green Party and his issue in my constituency of Dublin North East? policy should be that of the polluter pays but the I refer to the issue of pyrites which is affecting Government of which he is a member is actually hundreds, if not thousands, of homes. What paying these companies to pollute. measures will he take to ensure a departmental task force is established immediately? An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: A question, please, Deputy Tuffy. Deputy Phil Hogan: I rise to support my colleague, Deputy Terence Flanagan. I do not Deputy Joanna Tuffy: This means that our tar- believe the Department has grasped the import- gets for climate change are being obstructed ance or serious nature of this issue with regard to because we continue to send waste to landfill and what is extracted from quarries and what goes produce methane gas. How can a Green Party into landfill and also into the infill under the Minister stand over a policy which is basically foundations of houses. This is a significant issue paying private companies to pollute, especially affecting up to 30,000 homes. A working group is when residents are doing the opposite? required on this issue, a point I ask the Minister to consider. Deputy John Gormley: The story on which the Deputy bases her information is incorrect. The Deputy John Gormley: This is not related to issue is unsegregated waste. It could be inferred the question in the name of Deputy Quinn. I from the newspaper article that 40% of waste is addressed this issue in some detail in an Adjourn- now being recycled. It gave the impression that ment debate when the matter was raised by materials which could be recycled were going to Deputy Broughan. I informed Deputy Broughan landfill and this is not the case. This is the crucial that I shared his concern. I wish to establish as point which I bring to the Deputy’s attention and quickly as possible the location of the use of this which she needs to understand. pyrite and whether it was used in other areas. It 529 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions (Resumed) 530 is an important matter but it is not related to must be addressed, and I hope we will find a sol- this question. ution. However, the key to dealing with waste is having proper MBT facilities. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I will allow Deputy Tuffy a brief supplementary question. Social and Affordable Housing. Deputy Joanna Tuffy: The Minister has given 97. Deputy Denis Naughten asked the Minister the House a rose-tinted version of what is being for the Environment, Heritage and Local sent to landfill. He probably would not give this Government the steps he will take to increase the version if he were not the Minister. availability of affordable housing and sites to The newspapers were reporting on the report young people; and if he will make a statement on of the EPA about this issue. Both the Minister the matter. [22296/07] and I know what goes into black bins and much of this is waste that could be recycled. In some Minister of State at the Department of the counties, 93% of the municipal waste is sent to Environment, Heritage and Local Government landfill. The residents do their part by segregating (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The provision of afford- waste where the opportunity is provided to them able housing is a key priority for the Government but the Government, through the local auth- and is a key element of the “Paths to home orities, is paying companies large sums of money ownership” component of the Government’s to dump waste in landfill. housing policy statement, Delivering Homes, Sus- taining Communities. Significant progress has An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I will allow been made in increasing delivery under the range Deputy Naughten a final rider on this question. of affordable housing mechanisms currently in place, including the shared ownership scheme, Deputy Denis Naughten: Will the Minister take the 1999 affordable housing scheme, Part V of the action regarding local authorities which make Planning and Development Acts 2000 to 2006 and provision in county development plans for apart- the affordable housing initiative. In total, in ment blocks to have only two bins? Many parts excess of 3,200 affordable homes were delivered of the country are providing additional recycling in 2006, an increase of 20% on the previous year. bins. What will the Minister do about it? In the National Development Plan 2007-13, the Government has committed to the delivery of Deputy John Gormley: I was stopped short in 40,000 affordable homes over the seven year my reply to Deputy Tuffy. period of the plan. Under the social partnership The black bag and the grey bin are very agreement, Towards 2016, a total of 17,000 of important. I believe we can do much better with these are to be delivered over the three years regard to unsegregated waste by investing in 2007 to 2009. My Department is working closely MBT, mechanical biological treatment of waste. with local authorities and the Affordable Homes I had the opportunity to visit an excellent MBT Partnership to achieve the significant increases in plant in Austria. An MBT plant should be located delivery required to meet these ambitious targets. at every landfill site. This is low technology rather While the existing delivery mechanisms will be than high technology. The waste is sorted and expected to contribute substantially to achieving treated and the amount of waste can be substan- the required output, the Affordable Homes Part- tially reduced. The most important point is that nership, at my Department’s request, has under- what goes into the landfill is then inert. This pro- taken a study to examine how delivery from these cedure takes about 12 weeks to allow the waste mechanisms could be enhanced and to consider become inert and for the water content to be possible additional delivery mechanisms. I expect sufficiently low to avoid leachate. All metals can to receive the final report from this study shortly. be removed. The most important factor in order to comply with the landfill directive is to deal In addition, a low cost site scheme is in place with the biological fraction of the waste stream. through which sites can be made available, at dis- That is why it is so important that brown bins be counted prices, primarily to approved applicants distributed. The local authorities must do that. It on local authority housing lists, where it is con- would make an enormous difference. sidered this is an appropriate mechanism for meeting their accommodation requirements. Deputy Denis Naughten: No provision is made Decisions on the making available of sites under in planning. this scheme are a matter for individual local authorities. Deputy John Gormley: I will deal with the Apart from the various schemes designed to Deputy’s point. There is a problem in two areas. deliver affordable housing, certain ancillary sup- One is apartment living and the other is with dis- ports are also available to support certain appli- persed communities. We must deal with that cants to realise their home ownership aspirations. issue. That is the reason I am setting up the Specifically, the mortgage allowance and rent review of waste management. Those two areas subsidy schemes help lower income households 531 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions (Resumed) 532

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] housing situation? In the counties of Meath, access shared ownership and affordable housing Cavan, Monaghan and Louth there are thousands by providing an annual subvention towards the of houses that cannot be sold. In one estate, there repayment costs. are 40 such houses and nobody can bid on them. Ten people per day join the affordable housing Deputy Denis Naughten: The Minister is new scheme in Meath. Could the Department’s to his job and I wish him the best of luck with it. officials examine the possibility of matching those I wish to focus on the issue of affordable sites. I people with the houses the builders cannot sell? made the Minister’s predecessor aware of a huge These people are only short of the affordable difficulty with such sites. Is this Minister aware \30,000 site with the grant on it. This idea would that there is no basis in law for affordable sites? help the building industry. There are 7,500 empty This is causing a huge problem with lending insti- houses in Meath and 8,000 in Cavan. tutions, given the issues of security and clawback on the site. Will the Minister give a commitment Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: Obviously, what hap- to address the anomaly in the legislation with pened in 2005 and 2006 was unsustainable. There regard to affordable sites? He must ensure the was a frenzy, with people afraid they would not system currently in place for affordable houses is get on the property ladder. They bought property also put in place for affordable sites. There is and the amount of finance made available led to huge demand for affordable sites but the legal price inflation. That could not be sustained. From anomalies, which are not being addressed by the the point of view of people in the market at Department, are prohibiting local authorities present, it is time the Construction Industry Fed- from making such sites available. eration learned again how to sell. There will no longer be queues for houses. There is good value Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: That surprises me. It for money in the market for individuals. has not come to my attention. People talk about interest rates increasing on eight occasions by 0.25%. The last budget pro- Deputy Denis Naughten: The Minister’s vided mortgage interest relief which equated to officials are aware of it. They must not have three of the ECB interest rate increases. Stamp briefed the Minister on it. duty was removed for first time house purchasers Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: Already, through Part and income tax was reduced. In the intervening V, site subsidy is achieved by virtue of the fact period the affordability of houses has gone from that land components of the cost of homes reflect 29.9% to 24%. There is far greater affordability. only the existing use value, that is, the agricultural People who are selling houses must realise that value of sites. Under the affordable housing they are now in a different market. They must go initiative, the site subsidy is achieved. The process out and sell their houses, whether it is to auction- is in place. Under the 1999 affordable housing eers or customers, and not wait for the Govern- scheme, a site subsidy can be provided by the ment. The Government will act in the interests Department where necessary. That subsidy is of the consumer in the next budget through the payable for the Dublin metropolitan area—— promise of further mortgage reliefs.

Deputy Denis Naughten: That is for affordable An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I remind houses, not affordable sites. Members that there is one minute for a supplementary question and the Minister has one Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: ——including the city minute to respond. of Dublin and for Du´ n Laoghaire Rathdown, Fingal, south Dublin and certain parts of Kildare, Deputy Sea´n Barrett: Du´ n Laoghaire and the Meath and Wicklow. In the cities of Cork, constituency of the Minister, Deputy Gormley, Limerick, Waterford and Galway there is a sub- and Deputy Chris Andrews do not have any sidy in place and sites are being taken up. houses or land. There is a long waiting list for the However, I will take up the issue with my officials few affordable houses available. Local authorities and report back directly to the Deputy. are the housing authorities but they cannot perform their function because there is no land on Deputy Shane McEntee: The affordable hous- which to build houses. The only way of dealing ing and sites scheme is fantastic but we have that with that is to consider establishing a housing problem in the parish of Carlanstown. People authority. There is an Affordable Homes Partner- were approved for affordable sites but then enco- ship but all it can do, which is causing enormous untered the problem mentioned by Deputy problems, is approach the owners of large houses Naughten. It is everybody’s ambition to own their who fail to get increased density through a own house. I have put forward an idea in County development plan and suggest that they sell their Meath and there have been responses from build- houses for affordable housing, which is a contra- ers as well as from the people who want to own diction of the development plan already made by a house. Will the Minister re-examine the current the local authority. We have total confusion. 533 Ceisteanna — 10 October 2007. Questions (Resumed) 534

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy must we can have better delivery mechanisms and how ask a question. we can better equip ourselves to obtain houses in the areas Deputy Barrett mentioned. The report Deputy Seań Barrett: Will the Minister of State is due to be given to me this week and we can consider how we will deal with the problem as it discuss this matter in further detail at a later time. relates to areas such as Du´ n Laoghaire and the constituencies of Dublin South-East and Dublin Planning Issues. South which do not have land? If one is unfortunate enough to have been born in one of these 98. Deputy Lucinda Creighton asked the Mini- areas one moves lock, stock and barrel to Coun- ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local ties Meath or Cavan and commutes, which leads Government the penalties he will impose on to other problems on a daily basis. developers who do not bring estates up to necessary standards; and if he will make a statement An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Barrett on the matter. [22748/07] managed to take two minutes for his one minute slot. Deputy John Gormley: As I indicated in the reply to Questions Nos. 197 and 198 of 27 Deputy Seań Barrett: I apologise. September 2007, the non-completion of any development in line with the planning permission An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Before I call on for that development is unauthorised develop- the Minister of State to make a final reply I will ment, which is an offence under the Planning allow Deputy Naughten to ask a final supplemen- Acts. Enforcement of planning control is a matter tary question. for the planning authorities, which have substantial enforcement powers and duties under the Deputy Denis Naughten: In his original reply, Planning Acts. the Minister of State stated affordable sites are Section 156 of the Planning and Development a matter for local authorities. This is where the inherent problem lies. The Department does not Act 2000 provides that a person who is convicted take ownership of the primary legislation of carrying out unauthorised development or of required in this area. We have a successful afford- not complying with an enforcement notice will be able housing scheme which the Minister of State liable on conviction on indictment to a fine not \ spoke about at length. We need a legislative sup- exceeding 12.7 million or to imprisonment for a port for the same scheme. My colleague from term not exceeding two years or both. In the case Meath spoke about what is happening there, in of a summary conviction, the person will be liable Roscommon and in other counties. Local auth- to a fine not exceeding \1,905 or to imprisonment orities can take the initiative but not without the for a term not exceeding six months or both. Minister of State’s support. Section 156 also provides for substantial penalties for a person who, having been convicted of Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I will investigate this unauthorised development, continues the and will report back directly. offence. These are a maximum fine of \12,700 for each day on which the offence is continued or Deputy Denis Naughten: The previous Mini- imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years ster stated the same. He sat there for two years. or both on conviction on indictment, and on summary conviction a fine not exceeding \508 for Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I will give a commit- each day on which the offence is continued or ment to Deputy Naughten to investigate and imprisonment for a term not exceeding six report back to him. months or both. With regard to the point made by Deputy The substantial powers already given to plan- Barrett, I did not have the housing brief in the ning authorities to deal with unauthorised last Government when Deputy Gilmore was a development have been significantly strength- spokesperson on housing and the environment. ened in the Planning and Development (Strategic One place mentioned because no effort was made Infrastructure) Act 2006. This effectively reverses to provide housing there was Du´ n Laoghaire. The funny thing is that when the affordable housing the burden of proof in the refusal of planning per- partnership made a suggestion for the possibility mission to a developer who has substantially and delivery of 100 houses, the local authority in failed to comply with a previous planning per- that area refused to zone the land. mission. Under the amended provisions the authority may refuse permission in such a case and Deputy Seań Barrett: The Minister of State the developer will have to go to the High Court missed the point. It is a planning contradiction. if he or she wishes to apply to have the decision annulled. I am satisfied that planning authorities Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I asked the affordable now have substantial powers to compel the com- housing partnership to report back to me on how pletion of housing estates by developers in 535 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 536

[Deputy John Gormley.] Deputy Jim O’Keeffe: Shades of Monaghan. accordance with the terms of the planning permission. Deputy John Gormley: Exactly, that was the instance I was going to give the House. In this Deputy Phil Hogan: I thank the Minister for case a rezoning took place which I felt was out of outlining the substantial powers of local auth- order, would have increased the population orities. As the Minister correctly pointed out, threefold in the area and would have had disas- these were strengthened under the Planning and trous consequences for generations to come. It Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Act. represented bad planning. In instances where I However, two things are evident, namely, there is see bad planning I will intervene. no enforcement and local authorities fail to put enough money into the fund to have estates taken Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate. in charge. Does the Minister’s experience lead him to agree that the latter is because they do not Adjournment Debate Matters. want to be saddled with the costs of maintenance An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I wish to advise and other aspects of estates in local authority the House of the following matters in respect of ownership? It is not a question of a lack of power which notice has been given under Standing but the will of the local authority to take these Order 21 and the name of the Member in each estates in charge and deal with them. They are case: (1) Deputy Brian O’Shea — the need to not doing so. Will the Minister instruct local auth- provide funding in his Department’s capital orities to take a more proactive approach to tak- works programme 2007 towards the Tallow fire ing in charge estates and allocate more resources station project; (2) Deputy Chris Andrews — that for this on an annual basis? St. Luke’s Hospital in Rathgar will eventually become a step-down health care facility; (3) Deputy John Gormley: This is an interesting Deputy Jan O’Sullivan — to address concerns of problem. Often, people insist I micro-manage. community pharmacists and to engage in dis- However, giving more power back to local auth- cussions with the Irish Pharmaceutical Union in ority members is also discussed. advance of the implementation of proposals contained in a letter sent to pharmacists on 17 Deputy Phil Hogan: I understand this. September 2007 which would reduce the whole- sale mark-up on medicines; (4) Deputy Deirdre Deputy John Gormley: The Green Paper on Clune — the need to increase services for those local government reform is about getting the suffering from eating disorders; (5) Deputy balance right on this. Some people suggest a com- Fergus O’Dowd — the introduction of new ways mand and control system and I believe we have a of collecting fixed charge motoring penalties; (6) centralised country as it is. Deputy Michael Creed — the threat to 7,000 jobs in the pig industry; (7) Deputy Martin Ferris — Deputy Phil Hogan: I agree. The Minister is unemployment in Tralee; (8) Deputy Tom misinterpreting. Sheahan — which direction the Minister has given the board of management at Pobalscoil Deputy John Gormley: I happen to believe it Corca Dhuibhne Daingean Uı´ Chu´ is, regarding and it was often stated that we do not have real the implementation of an Irish only policy in the local government, we have local administration. school and will she comment on the matter; (9) We must trust local authorities to carry out their Deputy Thomas Byrne — the high cost of public functions properly. They have the powers, and transport from County Meath to Dublin; and (10) the essence of what Deputy Hogan stated is that Deputy Joe Costello — to outline the position of they do not carry out those functions properly. the Irish Government on the draft reform treaty in relation to the Charter on Fundamental Rights Deputy Phil Hogan: On a point of and the common EU approach to cross-Border clarification—— crime. The matters raised by Deputies Chris Andrews, An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy Michael Creed, Fergus O’Dowd and Brian knows well there is no such thing. O’Shea have been selected for discussion. Deputy Phil Hogan: I agree with the Minister that we have local administration, not local Charities Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed). government, and I accept what he states. However, who will act in the event of a local Question again proposed: “That the Bill be authority not enforcing the powers they have? now read a Second Time.” Deputy Jim O’Keeffe: Prior to the adjourn- Deputy John Gormley: In exceptional cases ment of this debate I stated my belief that this is where I feel I am compelled to act—— a good Bill and I compliment the officials and 537 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 538 others who helped put it together during the attempts have failed because they have been years since the Costello report in 1990. It has overly bureaucratic and too specific. What is been a long time in gestation. I like the Bill, needed is a balance between an element of self- which has broad support from those involved in regulation, good codes of practice, and a good the sector. We should use the goodwill of the regulatory framework, that is flexible enough to House to ensure the Bill becomes an excellent allow for changes and new developments. There Act and that the changes, tweaking and amend- is need for a decent input from the Oireachtas to ments required are fully considered and placed in help achieve that outcome. the legislation. That is why I strongly recommend Looking at the specific points raised I do not to the Minister that when the Bill is on Commit- intend to go through the submission from the tee Stage, those involved in the sector, the main study group. The Minister of State is already organisations and the charity regulation study aware of it and his officials will have studied it. group which produced an excellent submission on All I ask is that consideration is given to what the Bill, be invited to come before the Oireachtas appear to me to be legitimate points of concern. committee to discuss their views and outline their That is the reason I would like to see these people concerns and proposals for change. Those come before the Oireachtas committee with a changes might be considered technical in some view to teasing out those points. If there are instances, in other instances they may be more responses from officialdom, lets us hear them and than technical. This is not something that is of let us all work together to ensure a worthwhile peripheral concern or a consideration of minor outcome. importance because this is a huge sector. Accord- There has been no adequate explanation as to ing to the Trinity study last year, the sector, which why the promotion of human rights has been probably also includes the community and volun- excluded but, apparently, it was included in the tary sector, has a total economic value of \2,500 original draft. Given what happened in Rangoon million. That is an enormous sum of money. It is the week before last, if a group was raising money estimated that more than 60,000 people work in to help the human rights situation in Burma or in the area as employees, professionals, semi-pro- Robert Mugabe’s Zimbabwe, where people were fessionals, volunteers and part-time workers. similarly treated, it should be regarded as a wor- Given that it is a huge sector it is important that thy objective that would be approved in every we get it right. What is significant is that those way possible, particularly in light of the weak and involved at the coalface are unanimous in seeking rather lily-livered response of the West to the change and want to see a good Bill in place. They regimes that treat their people so disgracefully in are actively working and encouraging all of us both those countries. That issue needs to be with an interest in the area to ensure the legis- teased out fully. lation is brought to a successful conclusion. While all types of fundraising should require According to the Revenue Commissioners, last permits we should look again at how this issue is month the total number of charitable bodies controlled. The detail and the practical appli- registered for tax exemption was 7,211. This fig- cation need to be worked out. The best system is ure has increased from 5,800 in four years. There- probably through the regulator, the Garda and fore, it is a growth area. Some 80% of these chari- the sector. Given the way it is shaping up, it ties have a spend of less than a couple of hundred appears the Garda will have to process a much thousand euro and have to be taken into account. greater number of applications and notifications Any regulatory framework has to keep an eye on every day. As one who had a substantial interest smaller charities without stifling them. in the work of the Garda Sı´ocha´na during the A good point was made by the Minister of past three years and an appreciation of what it State on the changing nature of fund-raising. In was doing, we want the force to be more involved the old days there were raffles, quizzes, garden with core duties. Dealing with applications of this fetes and so on but this has changed over the kind would not be regarded as core duties. My years. The changes that have already taken place idea would be to lighten the workload as much as include more sponsored events, legacies, tele- possible. If we are inviting people to come before thons, direct debits and the development of the the Oireachtas committee, I would also like to philanthropy sector which is getting bigger by the hear the views of the Garda Commissioner and year. Fortunately as wealth increases I encourage his officials who look after this area. The fact that this trend. There are the university foundations there are 28 different Garda divisions, all of and much of the funding for the third level sector which operate autonomously, needs to be dealt comes from what would be technically a chari- with. table source. From that point of view, it is The intention is to ensure uniform regulation important that the regulatory framework is of public collections. It has been mentioned to me flexible. that the application for a 12-month conditional In many jurisdictions, attempts have been non-cash permit, followed by notification to the made to provide proportionate and appropriate Garda of an intention to exercise the permit and regulation for fund-raising. Many of those a requirement for further permission, will cause 539 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 540

[Deputy Jim O’Keeffe.] Obviously not everyone is satisfied; it is never quite a number of problems. The practical appli- possible to achieve that. However, I am sure that cation of that approach needs to be teased out. A consideration could be given to Deputy Jim possible solution is to set up a consultative panel, O’Keeffe’s proposal to invite some of the groups as provided for in the Bill, to work out the practi- to appear before the committee before the later cal issues and not to try to lay down the specifics Stages of the Bill. With the present state of the of every activity in legislation. committees I am not sure whether it is possible. There are a couple of issues about which I am It might represent a new way to consider legis- concerned. I endorse the comments of my col- lation in terms of combining all our assets. We league, Deputy Ring, in regard to fees. I do not need all the possible assets for a Bill of this mag- want the sector to have to pay fees out of moneys nitude, which will play a major part in every- collected from a generous public to underpin a body’s lives. regulatory bureaucracy. That would be going We want the Bill to go through the House as against the goodwill of people who support chari- quickly as possible and want to help in every way ties. There is a provision in the Bill for dealing to ensure it is feasible. Obviously the interesting with this issue but there has been no clear expla- interpretation of the Bill by the var- nation of how it will be implemented. When 4 o’clock ious charitable groups has led to a replying, perhaps the Minister of State will give considerable amount of represen- an indication of what he has in mind. tations. While it is the intention of us all to have There is another issue of concern to those who the Bill brought to fruition as soon as possible we do not want over-interference from the Govern- must also be very careful that all the concerns of ment. Deputy Ring raised the issue of responsi- the various interested bodies are investigated and bility to the House. I am in broad agreement with determined. Irish people are world renowned for him in regard to the responsibility of Ministers to their generosity, which can be noted on an almost the Oireachtas. On the other hand, if this is to daily basis by groups or families nationally or be an independent authority, we have to look at internationally expressing their thanks to the section 14 which gives the Minister the entitle- Irish people for the generosity that has helped ment to give written directions to the authority them to alleviate a big or small tragedy that requiring it to comply with Government policies. affected their loved ones or themselves. Many That is an issue I want teased out. tragic circumstances ranging from earthquakes, Section 13 specifically states that the authority flooding, tsunamis right down to a house fire, “shall be independent in the performance of its which can be such a tragedy for a family, have functions”. How can it be independent in the per- seen the Irish people play their part. As Deputy formance of its functions while at the same time Jim O’Keeffe has said a Trinity College research being subject to compliance with Government document has estimated the value of such gen- directions? This among many other issues needs erosity at \500 million for fundraising in Ireland, to be teased out. which is an unbelievable figure, with the volun- I wish to refer to an island-wide approach. tary sector in general generating \2.5 billion. One Northern Ireland has new draft regulations and can clearly see that we all agree to having the in the new era of North-South relations we should transparency provisions of the Bill approved and consider what is being done. There may be a introduced as soon as possible. facility, perhaps through one of the new struc- Charity affects everyone in this great country tures being established, to discuss the question of of ours and can be broken down into three differ- a common North-South approach. At a minimum ent sectors — the donors, the employees in the we should not ignore the draft Northern Ireland sector and the recipients. In too many instances charities order of 2007. recipients depend on the work of charitable Let us work on making this landmark legis- organisations to have a better standard of living lation. Let us make sure that everybody is on when the Government of the day has fallen down board. Let us have further consultation on it. in its commitments to those less well off than we With a continued input of that nature from all sides we will end up with very good legislation are. A case in point is the wonderful work being indeed. carried out by the Women’s Aid group, which provides a service to women who are battered, Deputy Jack Wall: I welcome this important beaten and in many cases sexually assaulted by and necessary legislation. That it has taken so husbands, family members, loved ones etc., yet long to come before the House means that a dedi- the phone service the organisation provided was cated staff put the Bill together and the two Mini- under-funded by the Department of Health and sters of State involved, Deputies Noel Ahern and Children and the HSE such that two of every five Pat Carey, took care and attention to ensure that calls went unanswered. This terrible tragedy that representatives of all charitable organisations had a woman in her darkest hour of torment could an opportunity to make submissions, which were not access a friendly voice went on for more than considered when drafting the legislation. three years before the HSE provided a paltry 541 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 542

\70,000 to meet the cost of a telephone staff that Minister of State has the best of both worlds. As could meet the demand. he has a background in a rural community and I highlight this example to show that many of now represents a densely populated part of the these groups would do far better by working with city, he knows what I am talking about. He knows the people for whom the funds are raised rather that spontaneity must not be dented by the legis- than running raffles or roulette tables and stand- lation. Amendments must be made to ensure ing on street corners, etc. In those instances the transparency while ensuring the spontaneity Government must consider providing funding. associated with community involvement is not The cake can only be divided out so much. If, in affected. cases where funding should be provided by the The Bill sets out to address the many concerns Government, money is being taken out of the expressed over the years by the public who are cake by those trying to provide a service it means very concerned about the effectiveness of the that other people will obviously lose out. many millions of euro they donate to thousands This is only one of many cases that, sadly, we of charities in the State and who wonder about could mention where the Government has fallen this. For example, The Wheel states it has 760 down in its commitments to groups which end up charities on its books. The legislation could cause dependent on the work of a charity to have a major problems for these charities when it is decent standard of living or integration into nor- enacted. Deputy Ring is correct that charities mal society which so many individuals and should not have to bear a cost as a result of the families crave. The field workers or employees at legislation. I cannot figure out how the depart- the coalface are the flag-bearers of many charities mental officials who drafted the Bill concluded that in many instances operate without Govern- that charities must make payments. The word ment funding. This wonderful work that in so “charity” implies giving to those to whom an many cases is voluntary without personal gain organisation’s focus is directed. A charity should raises one the often-asked questions of the effec- not have to give to the State. I cannot understand tiveness of charities to provide a service consider- how a charity can be expected to maintain its ing the administration costs vis-a`-vis the value of operations while complying with the legislation. what is happening at the coalface. For example, under one of the Bill’s provisions, We must ensure that these wonderful people, if a charity does not provide its accounts up front whom we see every day in so many segments of and has to hire an external auditor to examine its society, some of them unknown in the amount of books, it will have to pay the auditor’s fees. While work they do including organisations such as the legislation is required, we must not lose sight of a Society of St. Vincent de Paul and others, are not central issue — the charities that are run in many undermined by a lack of transparency regarding instances on a voluntary basis by people who per- the financial transactions or workings of the char- form above and beyond the call of duty to ity in which they are involved. The legislation provide for the less well-off. We must never devi- should ensure that their positions are verified ate from that. I have known the Minister of State now that such organisations will be required to for a long time and I hope he will examine this prepare accounts and be registered thereby provision so that a scenario will not emerge ensuring that the ordinary person on the street where money will be taken from a charity by the can see that the money he or she gave was used Exchequer when it could be used for the benefit effectively. of those for whom it was collected. The moneys Among the representations we have received, raised by charities are donated for the specific representatives of The Wheel have been very purposes with which the charities are identified vocal and persuasive. Its director of advocacy, and not to be given to the Exchequer. I hope that Ivan Cooper, has done a considerable amount in a major initiative will be taken by the Minister helping us to make this case today and on Com- of State to overhaul this provision, which will be mittee Stage. Representatives of The Wheel discussed again on Committee Stage. asked one very important question on how we We have received many submissions and the would handle spontaneous community fund- Minister of State referred to the advocacy issue raising, for example, in cases of a house fire, a raised by Barnardos. That organisation considers personal family tragedy or a major tragedy in a this a problem because it would affect fundraising particular area. Having searched the Bill I do not and so on. However, did the Minister of State say see any provision for such funding. While we will the provision will not be included in the obviously review the matter on Committee Stage, legislation? I would like the Minister of State to indicate how it will be handled. I do not know whether such Deputy Pat Carey: I will come back with a var- spontaneous fundraising happens in the cities, but iety of responses. we certainly have it in rural Ireland. I do not say this against the previous Minister of State at the Deputy Jack Wall: Wheel also highlighted this Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht issue and given that it represents 750 charities, Affairs, Deputy Noel Ahern, but the current this is a cause of major concern. Wheel believes 543 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 544

[Deputy Jack Wall.] When I raised this issue with the Minister for that the statutory organisation should remain Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs in the entitled to seek inclusion in the proposed register. context of the authority overseeing the inland Wheel is of the view that there is a need to pro- waterways at a committee meeting during the tect the identity and independence of charities so previous Da´il, he stated that even though a pro- that they are not all encompassed by the vision was not included in legislation to insist the legislation. body replied to questions from Oireachtas I refer to the Minister of State’s contribution Members, he always insisted that a written reply and his comments on costings resulting from the should be given to Deputies who tabled legislation. The issue also arises in the context of parliamentary questions. the taxation of small charities. I am involved in All we seek is a secure mechanism whereby a small voluntary organisation in Castlemitchell, written replies will be provided to Deputies. The Athy, but because it is a limited company, we Ceann Comhairle, who was then the Minister must submit accounts. The company is run by an responsible, included a provision in a Bill relating entirely voluntary group of directors and we try to the Red Cross to ensure this would happen. It to attract small businesses to an old school that is important, especially for Opposition spokes- was given to the community. An annual profit of persons, that such a facility is in place. One can approximately \3,500 is made but the auditor’s be asked a question by a constituent at any time fee for doing the accounts is similar and nullifies where the only means of obtaining the answer is what we gain. through a parliamentary question. A mechanism should be provided so that the I look forward to Committee Stage of this Bill. accounts of smaller charities, in particular, could My colleague, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, is be verified in a way that will not result in a major particularly interested in aspects of the Bill, as are cost to them. If that happened, the legislation, other Labour Party colleagues. We will be posi- which everybody agrees should be implemented, tive in our contributions and will help in every would be more humane. The Jewell report also way in ensuring this important legislation goes highlighted this issue. Volunteers who run small through the House as quickly as possible. charities, especially those in receipt of low levels of funding, say this proposal will increase their Deputy Mattie McGrath: I propose to share workload. At a time when many volunteers are time with Deputy White. leaving such organisations, I wonders whether this proposed strict regime will further inhibit An Ceann Comhairle: Is that agreed? Agreed. people from volunteering for charities and other organisations to the detriment of both rural and Deputy Mattie McGrath: This is my first time urban communities. It is great to make provision to speak in the House and I take the opportunity in legislation to ensure accounts are submitted to congratulate the Ceann Comhairle on his elev- and audited so that everything is transparent. ation to high office. I wish him well in his term. However, if a number of charities cease to exist I am grateful for the opportunity to address the because people are no longer willing to volunteer House on this important Bill. The updating of and put their shoulders to the wheel to ensure the regulations relating to the diverse charities sector success of such organisations as a result of the red will create a framework for both national and tape involved, it will be to the detriment of our local organisations involved in all areas of social, society as we go forward. economic and civic life in the State. Without such This intricate Bill raises many other issues and organisations, there would be a significant we will table many amendments on Committee additional cost burden on the Exchequer. I thank and Report Stages. Everybody wants it the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, and his pre- implemented and I hope we have a good, honest decessor, the Minister of State, Deputy Noel debate on Committee Stage. I also hope the Mini- Ahern, for bringing this Bill forward. ster of State will give a good hearing to the issues There are more than 19,000 community and we have raised on this Stage and that he will voluntary organisations sustaining our civil accept a number of our amendments. society. These bodies require support as well as When the Ceann Comhairle served as Minister regulation. With two thirds of Irish adults — or for Arts, Sport and Tourism, he introduced a Bill more than 2 million people — engaging annually relating to the Red Cross. He proposed the estab- in the social, cultural and humanitarian activities lishment of an authority to oversee the Red Cross offered by our community and voluntary sector, and I asked him to ensure the authority would be it is no surprise that the sector contributes more answerable to the House. He took that on board than \2.5 billion to the economy each year and and said he would include a provision ensuring employs more than 63,000 full-time and part-time the authority would have to answer questions staff. In south Tipperary, I have been involved posed by Members of this House. Too many with many voluntary organisations such as volun- authorities have been established under various tary housing schemes, community alert projects, Acts which are not answerable to the Oireachtas. the Ring a Link rural transport scheme, voluntary 545 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 546 naoinraı´ and other child care projects, community There is uncertainty in terms of the implications employment schemes and many others. I pay trib- of the Bill for people who organise or take part ute to all these organisations, many of which rely in spontaneous community fundraising in on volunteers. response to disasters, such as the tsunami crisis. I am conscious that many Deputies are or were The Bill must clearly set out the registration previously involved in community and voluntary exemptions that will apply in regard to permits in organisations throughout the State which the case of exceptional, once-off community operated with the benefit of charitable status con- responses to urgent need. If this is not done, there ferred by the Revenue Commissioners. This may be uncertainty around people’s willingness status has afforded several financial benefits to to organise such responses for fear of falling foul organisations with specific defined charitable of the law. This would be a terrible additional objectives. All these organisations enrich the life consequence for those already affected by a of local communities and frequently are estab- tragedy. lished by forward looking volunteers where a In Britain, the Charities Act 2006, which need is identified by local people that has been includes exemptions for local, short-term collec- neglected by the public sector. tions, could provide a model in this regard. The Under this legislation, charitable status will be relevant provisions in this legislation could be dependent on an organisation having charitable adapted to recognise the Garda as the relevant purposes only and being for the public benefit authority rather than the local authority as is the rather than having any particular legal form. case in Britain. Under this Act, a public chari- Charitable purposes will be fully defined for the table collection is exempt from registration purposes of the law for the first time in primary requirements if it is a local, short-term collection, legislation. They encompass: the prevention or the promoters notify the local authority in whose poverty or relief of poverty or economic hardship; area it is to be conducted within a certain time- advancement of education; advancement of frame of particulars relating to the collection, the religion; and any other purpose that is of benefit appeal is local in character and the duration of to the community. the appeal does not exceed the prescribed period Included in the latter category are the advance- of time. ment of community welfare, including the relief The Bill we are discussing today should also be of those in need by reason of youth, age, ill health about enabling charities to work in an envir- or disability; advancement of community onment without unnecessary bureaucracy. The development, including rural or urban regener- provisions of the Bill should act as a help and not ation; promotion of civic responsibility or volun- a hindrance to the broad range of work that only tary work in the community; promotion of health, charities can undertake, which can involve both including the prevention or sickness or relief of public, private and voluntary resources. I agree sickness, disease or human suffering; advance- with my colleagues that no expense should be ment of conflict resolution or reconciliation; pro- incurred by a charitable organisation under these motion of religious or racial harmony and har- new provisions other than perhaps a nominal fee monious community relations; protection of the for registration. natural environment; prevention of suffering or We must protect the identity and independence relief of suffering of animals; advancement of the of charities by ensuring that State agencies are arts, culture, heritage or sciences; and the inte- not included in the register of charities. Other- gration of those who are disadvantaged and the wise, there will be confusion in the public mind promotion of their full participation in society. about the status of charities versus State agencies. The community and voluntary sector is esti- Charities are independent organisations estab- mated provide more than \2 billion to the econ- lished by members of the public in response to an omy, with more than 60,000 full and part-time identified need, the response being recognised as staff and tens of thousands of volunteers, many being for a charitable purpose and for the public of whom have distinct legal responsibilities in benefit. In the world of charities, it is the inde- governing their organisations. There was pre- pendence of the board and the way it is elected by viously an ad hoc approach to different aspects of volunteers that is important. Charitable activity the work of charities. It is important that this Bill should be independent of State direction or con- will consolidate all these different aspects into trol, yet there are many State bodies, such as the one framework. Society is changing and this HSE, on the list of charities operated by the should be reflected in how the State defines what Revenue Commissioners. charities are and how they are supported and To avoid any confusion in the mind of the regulated. Much of the public discourse will be public between what is a charity and what is a about ensuring fundraising aspects of charities statutory agency, State owned or controlled enti- are properly controlled, including eliminating fin- ties should not be included in the register of ancial improprieties and fraud. charities. Public bodies or organisations, the con- We must be careful to support rather than dis- stitutions of which contain clauses that confer on courage spontaneous community fundraising. Ministers powers to control appointments to their 547 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 548

[Deputy Mattie McGrath.] working with the Minister of State in the months boards, should be excluded. It is recognised, and years ahead. however, that State agencies that are included in The is an important Bill which the Green Party the Revenue Commissioners’ list of organisations broadly supports. It is long overdue and contains eligible for charitable tax exemptions, such as the many features which both the Green Party and HSE, should continue to be eligible for relevant the voluntary sector have been calling for for a tax exemptions. Perhaps a special tax exemption long time. As a party which has championed the could be created for such bodies or agencies so causes of the voluntary sector and been highly they would not be required to seek inclusion in supportive of its role in the social partnership the register of charities in order to continue ben- process, we are pleased the sector is broadly sup- efiting from these tax exemptions. portive of this Bill. On the definition of charities and charitable I welcome the proposed establishment of a new activities, I agree that the purpose should pertain regulatory authority for charities and the pro- to activities of benefit to the community. I proposed creation of a register of charities for the pose to the Minister to extend the range of activi- first time. The outlining of what legitimises a ties in section 3(8) to include and explicitly men- charitable cause’s status is vital and it will, in tion the provision of social housing for addition to a regulatory authority and charity disadvantaged groups. A similar reform in the appeals tribunal, go a long way in ensuring UK looks to establish a charities framework with Ireland remains free of fraudulent charities. It social housing included as a charitable activity. will also ensure transparency and public account- There are over 500 voluntary housing associ- ability from the voluntary sector. ations in Ireland providing social housing Several other aspects of the Bill are vital. The approved by the Minister for the Environment, transferring of functions of the Commissioners of Heritage and Local Government. They provide Charitable Donations and Bequests for Ireland to up 20,000 homes for low-income families, the the new regulatory authority will make for homeless, older people and people with dis- sensible streamlining of the oversight of charities and advocacy groups, and the role envisaged for abilities. Housing associations now provide up to a clear consultative process between the new 30% of all new social housing and in the recent authority and stakeholders in the sector will do national agreement, Towards 2016, the Govern- much to ensure good relations between the State, ment has agreed that housing associations would community and voluntary groups. provide 6,000 new homes between 2007 and 2009. There are, however, several aspects of this Bill Therefore housing associations are a significant which remain problematic and I look forward to part of the community and voluntary sector, with working with the Minister to ensure that concerns over \300 million in turnover from capital and with the legislation will be addressed as it passes revenue sources this year. through the legislative processes in the House. The provision of social housing from approved The wording of the exclusion of organisations bodies in the voluntary and co-operative housing whose purpose is to advance a political cause sector is a significant charitable activity in causes a problem. I accept the motive behind the Ireland. Currently, voluntary housing associations wording may have been well intentioned but it work on a charitable level and must have is problematic for the clause excluding political approved status from the Department of the groupings to include the word political “cause”. Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Many political causes taken up by charities have the sole aim of advancing such issues as human An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy’s time has rights, civic participation or social justice. These expired. are ideals we all espouse in this House and the wording of this exclusion potentially endangers Deputy Mattie McGrath: The benefit for hous- their inclusion. ing associations in having charitable recognition Linked with this issue are the omissions in has been to receive various forms of tax exemp- section 3 of the Bill, which were contained in the tions relating to their activities and this should heads of the Bill in April 2006. Among the pur- continue. We must remember that not all chari- poses spoken about by others that are of benefit ties are the same. In conclusion, I ask the Mini- to the community and which were listed in the ster not to include unnecessary and cumbersome heads of Bill were the advancement of human duplication of dual reporting for charities in this rights, social inclusion and social justice, citizen- Bill. ship and the effectiveness and efficiency of charities. Deputy Mary Alexandra White: I begin by con- The Green Party shares the concerns of the gratulating the Minister of State on his recent voluntary sector that by not including these pur- appointment to the Department. I congratulate poses in the legislation, it might diminish the him also on the presentation of this Charities Bill standing it has in the eyes of the State and poss- to the Da´il early in its lifetime. I look forward to ibly result in the unintended exclusion of such 549 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 550 organisations from the register, particularly vis-a`- legislative day but the occasion of the Charities vis other purposes that are of benefit, and in turn Bill’s Second Reading provides us with a public thinking. The advancement of human reminder that the legal constraints facing chari- rights, social inclusion and social justice are pur- ties must be legislated for. I am sure the Minister suits worthy of equal recognition to those listed will agree it is important for the voluntary nature in the relevant section. of the work of charities to be recognised in the Several other aspects of the Bill must also be Bill by making a clear distinction between statu- examined in forthcoming Stages because of the tory charities and voluntary sector charities. danger that the Bill, as it stands, may produce a Why must these technicalities be addressed? bureaucratic culture in the area of charity man- Greater accountability and transparency must not agement. This in turn will run the risk of discour- cause paper mills and bureaucratic headaches in aging people from engaging in voluntary activities every parish hall or sports club throughout the aimed at helping the community. country. When legislation similar to this was The uncertainty surrounding the Bill’s impli- passed in England, a decline in the level of volun- cations for spontaneous community fundraising tary activity was observed. We have strong levels must also be addressed. People have spoken of of voluntary participation in Ireland and they are the Asian tsunami some years back, which led to the lifeblood of our communities. people spontaneously fundraising. In Kilkenny, Ireland has long been recognised as a generous, one of my constituents underwent multiple trans- energetic fundraising nation. In Carlow last week, plant operations and the people there responded a volunteering day for the local community was in extraordinary style to fundraise for her. superbly attended by charities and voluntary The issue of the regulatory authority’s role in fundraising groups. Voluntary, charity and advo- terms of facilitation alone or facilitation and sup- cacy groups must not be overburdened by porting better administration, and the question of reports, accounts, procedures and codes. a graded approach to the annual reports and I welcome the Second Reading of the Charities accounts — which charities will need to submit Bill, which will ensure greater accountability and — must be examined. It is important that what enhanced public trust in charities and community charities must do to comply is completely clear. or voluntary organisations. I look forward to It is also vital that the Government recognises the working with the Minister in the coming months need to consult charities and the voluntary sector to resolve issues of concern in a positive and con- if it is to bring them along in the journey towards structive manner. As Edmund Burke once stated, greater accountability and transparency. I have stubborn resistance to innovation impedes pro- no doubt this will happen. gress. This is an innovative Bill and it represents The issue of the regulator being Exchequer- funded or partially funded by charities and com- progress. munity and voluntary organisations must also be addressed. If we are going to establish a regulat- Deputy John Deasy: I wish to share time with ory authority to monitor charities and voluntary Deputy Barrett. groups we cannot ask such groups to pay for monitoring. Another potential pitfall which must An Ceann Comhairle: I understand Deputy be examined is the matter of dual reporting by Deasy will have 12 minutes and Deputy Barrett charities to the Companies Registration Office eight minutes. and to the charities regulator. The explanatory memorandum of the Bill states that dual Deputy John Deasy: It goes without saying that reporting is being examined in consultation with elements of this legislation are overdue. Ireland the Department of Enterprise, Trade and is unique within the European Union in that it Employment and the Companies Registrations does not have a charities register. There is no Office. We await progress on this issue of min- legal obligation on organisations not registered as imising the burden of dual reporting in due companies to publish their accounts. I have had course. experience of people who masqueraded as bona The issue of fundraising permits and the active fide charities and I agree that, in general, reform monitoring of organisations’ and persons’ use of is necessary. I support the reforming measures in them, particularly in terms of other groups being the Bill. unable to run charity events because of dormant Where I may depart from my colleagues on this permit holders, may require attention in a future issue is in respect of the establishment of a new Bill. I recognise it is a complicated matter but it authority. Why do we assume that matters would is another issue where we must work hard to improve purely on the basis of the setting up of ensure the act of doing good for a community and such an authority? Why can we not equally the public is not stifled by a lack of imagination assume that the Government has not been from lawmakers and enforcers. reforming in this area and simply has not done The issue of providing special legal structures its job? I am not convinced that a new authority for charities may also have to wait for another is necessary. 551 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 552

[Deputy John Deasy.] engaging with it today. It is one thing to be out- Reform is overdue, as are the specific voted or outnumbered in Cabinet in respect of a reforming measures contained in the legislation. particular issue. In fairness, the Minister, Deputy On many occasions, however, we seem to view O´ Cuı´v, never held the post of Minister for reform almost as a reason for making government Health and Children. However, he is the line bigger. In my opinion, the act of creating an auth- Minister responsible for dealing with this matter. ority and a tribunal to accompany it is not, by its One cannot have it both ways and it was abject nature, reform, nor are developments of this nat- hypocrisy for him to make a statement such as ure always the solution. I understand that if the that which he issued last week and then set about legislation is passed, the Minister could, under creating a new agency this week. statutory regulation, make policy in respect of Why could the Minister of State, Deputy charities. Whenever a problem arises, in some Carey, not deal with this matter? He has experi- instances the accepted response does not necess- ence of charitable issues and why could he not arily deal with the issues at hand, nor does it deal with it within the Department. The Minister make government leaner, more streamlined or of State has not provided an answer in this regard more efficient. On foot of the fact that Ireland is but he must do so. He must also make it clear a rich country and, by extension, has a rich why his Department should not continue to deal Government, we tend to create new bodies or with charitable issues rather than transferring authorities or new managerial levels within responsibility for them to a new agency which will organisations. It emerged earlier today that in the cost the Exchequer \4 million and which will ulti- HSE there is one manager for every six mately cost charities a great deal of money employees. because they will be taxed. The establishment of I am not convinced that this reforming measure agencies of this nature always leads to people and can be dealt with by the Department sponsoring organisations being taxed. this Bill. When the legislation was first Let us be clear what the legislation does, partic- announced, the justification put forward in ularly in the context of what the Minister, Deputy respect of the proposed authority was that no O´ Cuı´v, stated. The Bill provides for the transfer central body exists. That does not necessarily of all jurisdictions issued in the Attorney mean that we should automatically have an auth- General, by statute or common law, in respect of ority or a regulator. The explanatory memor- charities. The authority’s powers will be quite andum to the Bill refers to an annual budget of extensive and harsh. It will, for example: \4 million being set aside. The Minister of State . . . have the power to institute investigations; did not indicate how this money would be pro- to call for documents and search records; to vided. He referred to different jurisdictions but enter premises on foot of a search warrant; to did not identify any of them or outline any of the impose sanctions, including intermediate sanc- foreign models the Department has examined. tions; and to co-operate on an administrative He also referred to people working in the Depart- basis with foreign statutory bodies on law ment who are dealing with charity-related issues. enforcement matters. There will also be signifi- There are obviously many individuals in the cant penalties in place for offences under the Department who have a great deal of experience legislation. in dealing with such matters. The explanatory memorandum to the Bill When I first read this, I thought I was looking at states that the “issue will be subject of further the terms of reference of the FBI. However, when discussions with the Department of Finance at I re-examined it, I realised that the latter does the appropriate time”. This is a problematic and not have unilateral power to impose sanctions. vague statement. It is similar to constructing There is, therefore, a difference of sorts. something and then figuring out the cost after The Law Reform Commission issued a report the fact. on this matter in December 2005. The Minister of My interest was peaked when the Bill was pub- State indicated that the report was issued last lished as a result of the comments made by the year. That is not the case; it was published well senior Minister at the Department, Deputy O´ over 18 months ago. I am aware of this because I Cuı´v, not two or five years ago or when he was a read it on the Internet last night. The Law county councillor, but last week, in respect of the Reform Commission recommended the introduc- HSE. Many Deputies might agree with him, tion of a new form of legal structure for charities. particularly in light of their day-to-day dealings It did not make any definite recommendation in with the HSE. The Minister stated: “I’ve always respect of a regulator or a new authority. The been sceptical of the model that divorces the run- Minister of State glossed over those facts. His ning of all these agencies from Government con- Department has had a great deal of time to per- trol.” Now, however, his Department is putting use the 55-page report the Law Reform Com- forward an item of legislation that proposes the mission compiled. That report contains some creation of a new agency. Obviously the Minister quite detailed recommendations and suggestions. is not that sceptical of the model because we are For example, it suggested an entirely different 553 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 554 legal framework when it comes to charities. A tinue to put these new authorities together. It number of reports relating to this matter have does not necessarily mean that Government will been issued in the past 16 years and the Minister get better. Sometimes it just means it will get of State must explain why the Law Reform Com- bigger. mission’s recommendations were not taken into account before the legislation was drafted. Acting Chairman: In the course of Deputy I welcome the reform elements of the legis- Deasy’s speech, which I did not wish to interrupt lation, which are long overdue. Many charities because he was clearly in full flow, he used hypoc- have been the subject of fraud. As already stated, risy as a political charge. It is important to state we are making government bigger and when one that we would prefer if he did not use this word takes that route, one must consider the necessity in that context. of what one is doing and the cost implications to the Exchequer. It may be a bad example — most Deputy John Deasy: Okay. Deputies will understand from where I am coming in respect of it — but I was elected seven or Deputy Sea´n Barrett: I join with others in con- eight years ago and I have seen government repli- gratulating the Minister of State on his appoint- cate and grow inordinately. Even if one contacts ment and wishing him every success. If somebody a local authority engineer these days, the chances has to be in government, I am delighted that he are that the project about which one is inquiring is one of those people because he has shown com- has been contracted out to a consultancy firm and mitment as an ordinary backbencher and chair- is not being done in-house. Government con- person of an Oireachtas committee. tinues to grow and, in many cases, there is no I welcome the purpose of this Bill, which is to good reason for this. enact a reform of the law relating to charities to We need to ask ourselves whether outsourcing ensure accountability and to protect against government work or creating new bodies necess- abuse of charitable status and fraud. Some of the arily makes government better. The Minister of key aspects of this Bill provide for a definition of State should provide a clear explanation as to charitable purpose for the first time in primary why it is absolutely necessary to create a stand- legislation. I welcome this development and I also alone authority such as that envisaged. It was welcome a register of charities, with which all interesting to hear other Deputies almost plead- charities operating in this State must register. I ing with the Minister of State to have replies welcome updating the law relating to fundraising, issued to them when the new authority is estab- particularly in respect of collections by way of lished. When we table questions relating to chari- direct debits and similar non-cash methods. table organisations or charity in general in the However, I do not welcome the creation of future, the position is unclear as to whether we another quango, which was noted by my col- will receive replies. We should not be doing this. league, Deputy Deasy. I am appalled that we The Minister of State must explain why responsi- seem to have lost faith in the Civil Service. We bility for this matter is being outsourced from the have a very good Civil Service which, down Government. It is not as simple as introducing through the years, accounted very well for every legislation and creating a new authority. The penny spent belonging to the public, which served Government has neglected this area and failed successive Governments, irrespective of colour, badly in respect of it for a long period. The Mini- and which answered questions in Parliament. ster of State knows it is not as simple as that. He People tell me they are shocked when they must explain why he, as Minister of State with switch on their televisions to see an empty jurisdiction over charitable issues, cannot do it Chamber with nobody able to answer questions within his own Department with his own staff and on certain issues. Is it any wonder when every day within his own budget. of the week, we are handing away more and more Deputy Jim O’Keeffe raised an interesting power to unelected people? Since I returned to point when he discussed one section where the the Da´il, not a day has passed but some issue is authority is described as independent and raised about the HSE. It is stated that the HSE is another section which states that the authority is doing this and that and when one asks a subject to ministerial or Government direction. parliamentary question, one gets a nice letter The Minister of State must explain that because back from the Minister telling one that she has there is a real contradiction in respect of those no responsibility for it but will pass it on to the two sections. HSE. The people did not elect the HSE, they I am glad my party has refrained from giving elected the Minister and me, and they want an absolute decision on this Bill. We all welcome answers. the reform measures within it. However, before Every day we pass on responsibility to any support is given unconditionally to this Bill, quangos, which is another nail in the coffin of the Minister of State must explain why he could democracy. These are people who have been not deal with this within his own Department appointed and have had strong powers vested in with his own staff and budgets and why we con- them but who never have to answer to anybody. 555 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 556

[Deputy Seań Barrett.] annual collection? All this seems to be going I tabled a parliamentary question for written beyond what is really necessary. answer yesterday about how many civil servants What we should be doing in this country is were currently in the Department of Health and reviewing all the quangos we have to see whether Children and I received a reply which stated that we can bring as much as possible back into the there are 592.92 whole-time staff employed in Civil Service, get real value for money and let that Department. I have yet to find out who the people come in here and answer questions. I do poor unfortunate referred to as “.92” is but that not want to be writing to the chief executive of is another day’s work. What are 593 civil servants this new authority to find out about something in the Department of Health and Children doing when it is easier to table a parliamentary ques- when everything has been handed over to the tion, knowing that the Minister responsible is HSE? Yesterday, we were told that there is one keeping an eye on what is happening. We are told manager for every six employees in the HSE. in various sections about a chief executive and his This is about charities and volunteers who are or her powers, including his or her power to mainly going out and collecting money but, most employ people, the transfer of people from other of all, it is about the public putting its hands in its agencies and a superannuation scheme, all this pockets to support whatever cause it fancies or nonsense. feels it should support. When the public gives its I am sincere about this and am not making any money, it wants to be guaranteed that this money political points because this is serious legislation. goes to that particular cause. It does not want to By all means, let us have a register and proper be told that 25% of the money is going to this accounting, and see that people can be assured new regulatory authority to keep this new that when they give money, it will go towards the bureaucracy going. It wants to see the money right purpose, but let us not fall back into setting going to the causes it supports. It does not want up another authority every time there is a any more of this stuff. problem. I have every confidence in the ability of the Minister of State and the officials over there in Deputy Mary O’Rourke: I thank the Minister the pen advising him to carry out the functions of of State for introducing this legislation and praise this legislation, which I support. There is no need him and his predecessor, Minister of State, for this stuff. If we must transfer some officials or Deputy Noel Ahern, who put in a considerable civil servants from the Department of Health and amount of work on the matter for a long time, Children who are no longer required because of for their diligence in this area. the HSE to the Minister of State’s Department, While the Bill is necessary on many fronts, I that is fine. share some of the concerns raised by Opposition Members about the number of regulatory bodies to be established. There will be a Deputy Michael Ring: Fine. 5 o’clock charities regulatory authority and charity appeals tribunal. I note from Deputy Seań Barrett: It does not increase the the copy of the Minister’s speech circulated in the cost to the Exchequer. What we are doing here is Chamber that they are all spelled with capital let- crazy. It would be far better to give the money ters. I am always doubtful when I see bodies the Minister of State is spending on setting up spelled with capital letters. I take it they must be this regulatory authority to charities and let the taken very seriously. The charity appeals tribunal, Minister of State, the civil servants beside him which will be similar to the Small Claims Court, and others in his Department deal with this issue. of which I approve, means an appeal can be I am a member of the Lions Club, which organ- quickly heard. However, there is a further stream ises a Christmas collection for hampers. The of capitalised terms in the speech such as the response outside supermarkets is enormous when “Agreed Codes of Good Practice”. we ask people to put food into the basket. The This is fine and dandy and needed to be intro- reason for this is that people see that they are duced into legislation. There is no doubt that the giving a tin of beans or peas which is going to charities sector, through no fault of the groups some unfortunate family to make Christmas a responsible for collecting, has run into some dis- little better. Ask them to give money and they repute. Whenever I encounter a charity collector will have doubts about it. Ask them to give outside my local Dunnes Stores on a Friday money where charities are subject to this non- morning, I always ask to see his or her identifi- sense and they will become sceptical. I do not cation. Some collectors are affronted and others think this is good for the voluntary sector. are not. While I am sure it is for a good cause, We are then told that charities must produce there are cases where one does not know. Some audited accounts and keep records. Maybe that is collectors take up a position at the door to the necessary to some extent but must the Lions Club shop, making it difficult and somewhat intimidat- of which I am a member keep accounts and have ory when one is pushing a trolley. I do not know them audited? Will we be able to carry out our if such encounters are covered by the Bill but I 557 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 558 hope when the Minister of State replies he will tion can be deemed offensive. I believe it is an address this point. affirmative process and should be applauded for I am glad the Minister of State is not increasing its involvement of people in politics. I was dis- bureaucracy in the charities sector, an option mayed that any bishop could take it upon himself which is exercising the Opposition. Too much to deem political party collections outside church bureaucracy is not a good thing, something I gates as unworthy. would like to see in capital letters. The over- bureaucratisation of an activity such as charity Deputy James Bannon: Deputy Mary collections would be incorrect. O’Rourke misinterpreted the bishop. He was Ireland has a great level of voluntary activity. very annoyed at the wastage by the Government In Athlone, we recently established a hospice and then it having the cheek to stand outside group, for which the level of support is enormous. church gates and collect money. I hope the group, however, will not be caught up in form-filling and attending the regulatory auth- Acting Chairman (Kathleen Lynch): Deputy ority. A bureaucratic aspect will make it Bannon’s slot to speak is next. uncomfortable for some groups. The Irish people have a strong generous streak. After the Asian Deputy Mary O’Rourke: That is extraordinary. tsunami on St. Stephen’s Day 2004, all Members The bishop is really getting involved in politics if will recall the swift manner in which people that is what he is going on about. responded. Being an island nation, the idea of such a ferocious flood may explain part of our Deputy Michael Ring: Did not politics abandon generous response. the church? Political parties have been excluded from the Bill, which is correct. The Fine Gael and Labour Deputy Mary O’Rourke: Will the Minister of parties will empathise with the tradition of church State take this matter up with the church auth- gate collections. Each party has a specified orities? It did not come out as a blanket denunci- Sunday, a licence is granted by the Garda and a ation or order against church gate collections. party will have its collection. I recall these collec- The Bishop of Ardagh and Clonmacnoise, whose tions since I was knee-high to a grasshopper. Is bishopric is in my local area, has not broken his the Minister of State aware that some bishops are silence on this matter. Members from political objecting to collections for political parties out- parties vow their allegiance to those parties. Dan- side their church gates? I can understand their iel O’Connell’s Catholic rent of a penny a month objections if the collection is on church grounds, established a tradition which still continues. Why as it is their property. However, if it is on the can we not carry on the 200-year old tradition of footpath outside the church, it is not the bishops’ church gate collections? but public property. The collectors, with their I will support this legislation and the Minister tables and posters, are therefore fully entitled to of State, as will all the Fianna Faíl Party. be there. Will the Minister of State address this However, I am concerned that with this legis- at the conclusion of Second Stage? lation we might throw out the baby with the My nearest bishopric, much of which covers my bathwater. With the charities regulatory auth- constituency, was recently rapped by a well- ority, the appeals mechanism, the agreed codes of known bishop on this matter. While he was not practice and so forth, the process may become convinced all charities should not be collecting, cumbersome and could daunt, say, a small GAA he was not impressed by the presence of political club in County Westmeath or County Longford parties outside his churches. grappling to raise some funds for a playing field or hall. Deputy Ulick Burke: A belt of the crozier. I hope and trust that the common sense of the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, will ensure that Deputy Mary O’Rourke: In 1830s and 1840s, it is not overwhelmingly obtuse for those who Daniel O’Connell set up the Catholic and repeal seek to make a case for charitable status. On rents which was collected outside church gates. balance, the appeals mechanism is a good one. At the time, the Catholic church was very When I was involved in consumer affairs we set involved in politics, something I am not on for at up the Small Claims Court. One constantly hears all — we have enough trouble as it is without that cases on the radio concerning people who have involvement. The O’Connell collection was the had a bad holiday, or got a bum steer as regards first step on the march to democracy. It meant something they have purchased — involving people could affirm their allegiance to a political small amounts of money, so that no solicitor is party and be proud of so doing at a place where keen to get involved. One can go into the Small most of the population was going for Sunday Claims Court without a solicitor and make a case. worship — perhaps that is not the case now as One can say, in effect, that one has purchased a receipts from the national collection show. I do carpet for \589 and that it is faulty, seek rec- not understand how today’s church gate collec- ompense and one’s case will be heard. More 559 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 560

[Deputy Mary O’Rourke.] Deputy James Bannon: I propose to share my interestingly, the judge does not go on and on and time with Deputy Ulick Burke. neither does he or she wear a wig, but just gives a decision there and then and the claimant has Acting Chairman: Is that agreed? Agreed. redress. That is very good, so I hope the appeals mechanism initiative will work out, as I believe Deputy James Bannon: I welcome the Minister it should. of State, Deputy Carey, and wish him well in his By and large Ireland has benefited. A legislator new portfolio. Last year we had Senator might get four letters in a week from various O’Rourke versus Deputy Cassidy. In 2008, prob- organisations. Quite rightly, they write to us look- ably, it will be Deputy O’Rourke versus the ing for subscriptions towards what they are doing bishop. Watch this slot. because we go to their doors and look for their votes. They are fully entitled to write to us. We Deputy Mary O’Rourke: Oh, for God’s sake. get at least three or four imploring letters per He is not going for election, I hope. week. The legislator reflects on the case, the Deputy James Bannon: The purpose of this people involved, the worthiness of the cause and Bill is to enact a reform of the law relating to then decides how much to give. I hear people giv- charities to ensure accountability and protect ing out about this but I do not believe it is a cause against abuse of charitable status and against for disquiet. Rather, it should be followed up on fraud. It will enhance public trust and confidence and admired. Sometimes when one attends a in charities and increase transparency in the sec- community meeting where funding is being tor. An oft-quoted proverb regularly trotted out sought, one hears the stock line “This country is in reply to requests to people to part with money awash with money and we are just seeking is, “Charity begins at home”. Perhaps it is mis- \ 400,000” or whatever. When I hear the doleful quoted, however, because the proverb in full is economic forecasts, however, I resolve the next more explicit and generous and does not warrant time I hear the country is awash with money to abbreviation, namely: “Charity begins at home, respond, “Oh no, it is not; so there is no point in but should not end there.” caterwauling about it all the time and you must That is a very different slant on matters and a live within your budget”. hard hitting message for the complacent. This is Well done to the Minister of State for following not to take from the hard working individuals and on from what his predecessor, the Minister of organisations whose efforts have been the back- State, Deputy Noel Ahern, had done. I hope, at bone of charitable fundraising over many years. the end of the Second Stage debate, he will reply Nonetheless, the legislature could be accused of to my point about the political parties. We do not extreme complacency. This Bill is the first charity intend to stay away from the churches. However, legislation in more than 40 years. I believe the I should like to know if we are entitled to be there last legislation was in 1961. The Charities Bill so long as we are on the public path. I can under- 2007 will introduce a definition of “charitable stand that one cannot be on church property. If purposes” into Irish law and clearly define charity they get all shirty about it, there is nothing much in all its guises and what its parameters are. one can do about that. However, surely, one is There is a tendency in the study of social entitled to be on the public path or roadway. sciences, social policy and sociology to take Is there some way in which all this regulation refuge in a lack of definition. For example, the can not be put forward as a type of quasi- concept of poverty is difficult to define. This may be so in academic circles, but not so difficult for smothering of the enormous spirit of voluntarism those experiencing it who are often at the mercy which is so evident throughout the country? It of a Government which appears to ignore the vul- keeps many clubhouses going and many facilities nerable in our society. This Bill is welcome in that in being in rural communities in particular. its purpose is to put in place a statutory definition People have hopes and aspirations and when a of a charitable organisation and a charitable pur- club in a small rural area unveils a plan to do pose for the first time in primary Irish legislation. something, that plan keeps its members coming. This, through the advancement of community They get someone to draw up a plan, and decide care, will give a definition, too, to poverty or how to make money, with pub quizzes and all economic hardship. The Bill’s purpose is to enact types of different activities. I trust such initiatives a reform of the law relating to charities to ensure will not be stifled by the bureaucratic nature of accountability, which is what we all want to see. It the regulatory authority. I hope that whatever will seek to protect against the abuse of charitable number of persons the Minister of State intends status and against fraud. to appoint to the authority, six or nine, they will At present, there is virtually no regulation for not decide to poke their noses into everything the 7,500 or so charities in the State. Some promi- and cut out much of the good work that already nent charities have been associated with fraud is being done in Ireland. and scandal over the years and there has been no 561 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 562 legal requirement until now to provide donors on an answering machine with their request. This with financial information, aside from that issue must be addressed urgently. demanded under company law. This has militated We talk about volunteerism and looking after against reputable charitable organisations, which people in society. One is not looking after people have been tarred with the same brush as those by having such a system in place. It does not help seeking to defraud. We are all aware of the dubi- society or foster comradeship and the neighbour- ous perception that to give to a relief programme liness to which we were accustomed over the is merely to provide expensive cars and other years. That type of system is not of benefit to perks for aid workers. Nothing could be further Ireland. We have always had a unique culture in from the truth for those whose lives have been which there was great interaction between given over to the pursuit of the greater good and people. I would like this issue to be addressed in whose work from the smallest local efforts to the the not too distant future. largest global aid projects have helped to lessen Many people give to charities. I read in a recent the suffering of the poor and afflicted. survey that the figure stands at 90% of the popu- Indeed, many members of my family were lation, which is heartening. However, these members of religious orders and worked in var- people do not know to where their money goes ious parts of the world. I have granduncles who and if it ever gets to the people for whom it is worked for charitable causes in Australia, South intended. There is the thorny question of how America and Africa and have uncles who gave much goes on the salaries of professional fund- their entire lives to serve communities in Africa raisers, leaving little after the overheads have and many other parts of the world. been accounted for from the money which people A 1999 survey found that only 50% of respon- have signed over in standing orders or donated in dents perceived charities to be honest and almost other ways. one third were concerned about honesty and A major question in regard to funding must be accountability. Half those asked said they were confronted with running costs of approximately tired of being asked to contribute to one charity \4 million for a charities regulator. Who is or another. Currently, anyone can set up a charity expected to meet this cost? Will the already hard- collecting money and is exempt from registering pressed charities being forced to take on new fin- or filing annual reports. This legislation will ancial obligations have to contribute to the cost update that, which I very much welcome. of the new body? If so, surely this flies in the face Currently, there is no register of charities. Even of charity. I hope the Minister of State will if charities wish to register, they cannot do so address this issue when summing up. because there is no register of, or regulatory body for, charities. Like my colleague, Deputy Barrett, Deputy Ulick Burke: I welcome the oppor- I believe this should be in-house and worked on tunity to contribute to this debate and welcome by Government. There is a large number of the Minister of State and wish him well in his quangos in this country. As Deputy Barrett said, Ministry. I welcome many of the proposals in this there is the Department of Health and Children Bill. Will the Minister of State explain why it was versus the HSE and the National Roads Auth- necessary to change the contents of the Bill from ority versus the Department of the Environment, the heads as originally published? There are Heritage and Local Government. There are many areas in which there are omissions. I have quangos under the remit of every Department. heard it said that perhaps we are introducing this The people who elect us are fed up with what is Bill now and leaving out the more contentious taking place. The national Parliament is handing and difficult areas for the time being and that we over powers to bodies even though we have a fine will deal with them at a later stage. Civil Service and fine parliamentarians who are Many of the organisations which have wel- well able to look after the interests and affairs of comed the Bill have sought legislation to regulate the country. and introduce transparency to charitable organis- What galls the public are the quangos and ations and their fundraising methods for a long those faceless bureaucrats and their behaviour. time. Indeed, approximately 85 submissions were This issue comes up time and again at public received in response to the initial request made. meetings. Faceless bureaucrats do not even Perhaps the Minister of State could consider the answer the telephone. Almost every quango has possibility of a single umbrella group rep- answering machines. One never seems to meet resenting the endless number of charities. Many anybody. One can have an expensive telephone bodies are umbrella groups for a number of call as a result of being left holding for several organisations. It is important when dealing with hours. It is time the Government addressed this this legislation and discussing how it will be issue. applied to have a single agreed umbrella body for Human contact is very important for people. all charitable organisations. Loneliness has crept into society. People cannot Many people in this country have been get to speak to another human being at the other involved at local level in organisations or perhaps end of the telephone and must leave a message at national or international levels. Many people 563 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 564

[Deputy Ulick Burke.] first instance that referred to the appointment of have been involved in providing urgent an ombudsman as an intermediary. Doing so responses, whether at local or national levels. I would be far less expensive than what is proposed fear that the duty and onus placed on the trustees and would be far more effective in that one per- of organisations is so great that it will result in son would have the supports to enable decision- some people withdrawing from supporting, or making. We must congratulate the current finding an alternative route to support, charities. Ombudsman on the magnificent and effective The intentions behind the legislation are welcome way in which she carries out her work and but if it has that effect, it will be counter- produces answers effectively. There is a need to productive. I hope that will not happen but I can reconsider the proposal to have another indepen- give one instance where it may. I refer to duty of dent regulatory body. I have heard many contri- care. The Law Reform Commission report, butions on this from all sides of the House and I Charitable Trusts and Legal Structures for Chari- have a serious preference for having an ombuds- ties, states: man as an intermediary. In the consultation paper, the Commission I hope we will have the opportunity on Com- considered the duty of care and standard of mittee Stage to tease out many of the difficulties care required of charity trustees. The Com- people have with the proposals, despite now hav- mission was mindful of the need to ensure that ing legislation that will give confidence to the the standard of care required was not set so public. Transparency in respect of charities has high as to discourage individuals from becom- been queried many times. Transparency and ing involved in voluntary activities, but at the other assurances are especially important when same time would ensure that public confidence NGOs are dealing with overseas aid, which in the charity sector is maintained by providing involves considerable public funds. that funds donated to a charity are properly Certain charities’ fundraising methods give applied for the purposes of the charity. them an advantage over others. For example, Tro´ caire, which has done tremendous work, The document further states: makes collection boxes available during Lent The proposed statutory duty of care which through the church. Charities should compete for would apply to all charity trustees is framed funds in the same way as every other body, be it as follows: religious or secular. I have no preference for any individual organisation because they are all doing A charity trustee must, in exercising func- fine work, but I ask the Minister to comment on tions in that capacity, act in the interests of the methods certain charities use to raise funds. the charity and must, in particular: I welcome the Minister of State at the Depart- (a) seek, in good faith, to ensure that the ment of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Michael Kitt, charity acts in a manner which is consistent who is a colleague in Galway East, and I wish him with its purposes and well in his Ministry. (b) act with the care and diligence that Deputy Chris Andrews: I wish to share my time it is reasonable to expect of a person who with Deputy Charlie O’Connor. is managing the affairs of another person We are heading into a minefield in this area. If Acting Chairman: Is that agreed? Agreed. trustees or ordinary people in communities are to be subject to restrictions, impediments and oner- Deputy Chris Andrews: I congratulate the ous charges when raising funds for charities, their Minister of State at the Department of Com- involvement would present a serious difficulty. munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Pat Key aspects of the Bill will provide for a defini- Carey, on introducing this Bill and on his pro- tion of “charitable purpose”, a regulatory auth- motion. He will be good for communities around ority to secure compliance, a register of charities Dublin and he has certainly been good to Finglas. and dissolution of the Commissioners of Chari- I am glad there was sufficient foresight to share table Donations and Bequests for Ireland upon him with the rest of the country. I also congratu- establishment of the new authority. Many late the Minister of State at the Department of Members have queried how the regulatory auth- Foreign Affairs, Deputy Michael Kitt, on his pro- ority can be independent if it is responsible to the motion. He has challenging times ahead but he Minister. They also asked whether a response to has certainly set off in the right direction. a parliamentary question on a particular charity I welcome this legislation, which has been in would be received from the Minister, the Mini- the pipeline for a long time. Much preparation ster’s secretariat or the authority itself, as is now and consultation has been carried out with the the case in respect of the HSE. various stakeholders and I am delighted to see it The example of the HSE has been highlighted includes many important proposals concerning frequently. It is necessary to reconsider this the organisation of charities. Charity work in matter and the submissions that were made in the Ireland has a long history and many charities, 565 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 566 such as the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, orig- the city centre on a regular basis are familiar with inated in the 1800s. A number of Irish charities, the so-called “chuggers”, or “charity muggers”. I including Tro´ caire, GOAL, Gorta and Concern, am not comfortable with this type of collection almost enjoy global status and I commend them by charities because its professional nature just on their hard work and success. does not feel right. While I do not like it — it is There is a proliferation of small local voluntary almost aggressive at times — I accept that a case organisations. I read today that up to 63,000 can be made for it. people are employed in this sector in Ireland, I would like to discuss two specific aspects of both on a part-time and full-time basis. In my the Bill — the charities regulator and the defini- constituency, Dublin South-East, a local group tion of “charitable purpose”. It is proposed that from the Grand Canal area, which is not too far a charities regulatory authority be established to from here, set up a committee to raise money for act as an independent regulatory body for the a special care unit for babies and recently charities sector. The principal role of the auth- presented a cheque for \34,000 to the National ority will be to increase public confidence in Maternity Hospital in Holles Street. This is a charities through effective oversight of such great example of the civic-mindedness, generosity organisations, to encourage better administration and teamwork that exists at community level in of charitable trusts and to provide guidance to every town and village in Ireland. charitable organisations, including through the On foot of our long-standing tradition of chari- development of codes of practice, which are table work, it is incumbent on the Government extremely important. The authority will also have not only to provide relevant supports where the power to institute investigations, call for appropriate, but also to provide a clear and stable documents, search for records, impose sanctions regulatory framework for this growing field of and enforce penalties. While it is important that work. I am delighted the Charities Bill will do there is a carrot, there also needs to be a stick. this and make it easier for volunteers to become The authority will act as an excellent point of involved in charity work in the future. reference and support in overseeing the charities As already outlined, key aspects of the Bill sector as a whole. I would like to put forward include the definition of “charitable purpose”, a some suggestions for consideration, however. I new regulatory authority, a register of charities, agree with some speakers that we should be con- an annual activity report by charities to the new cerned about how the authority is run and who authority, a charity appeals tribunal and dissol- will run it. Such matters will be teased out on ution of the Commissioners of Charitable Committee Stage. If I had a choice, my prefer- Donations and Bequests for Ireland. ence would be for the authority to be run in- This Bill represents the Government’s commit- house. The regulator should strengthen its inde- ment to modernising the charity sector. Every- pendence. We should bear in mind the costs of body will agree that an element of modernising is regulation and the burden of compliance costs, required. The Bill, together with the Charities Acts 1961 and 1973, will put in place a composite particularly for smaller organisations. We cannot regulatory framework for charities. Having con- afford to impede the work of organisations like tacted representatives of a number of charities to the one I mentioned in the Grand Canal Street discuss the legislation with them, I assure the area, which organises a fund for Holles Street House that it has been broadly welcomed. Most Hospital. We have to keep it simple and work- importantly, the Bill will serve to improve the able. While the charities sector has become more public perception of charities. A certain degree of professional, we do not want it to become over- cynicism about charities has developed over the managed. We do not want regulation simply for years, possibly as a result of changed methods of the sake of it — we want effective regulation that collection, such as what I call plastic bag collec- will protect charities and donors. I would like the tions. When plastic bags are posted through our regulator to be established as soon as possible — letterboxes, the implication is that the clothes put the sooner the better for everybody involved in them will go to charities. The bags are some- I would also like to comment on the Bill’s pro- times associated with businesses which have very posed definition of “charitable purpose”. I wel- little connection with charity. I hope this Bill will come the inclusion in this Bill of a definition, as clear up many of the negative feelings about it had previously been a matter solely for the charities which are inspired by such operations. I Revenue Commissioners. It has to be a good accept that many legitimate charities operate in thing that “charitable purpose” is to be fully this manner, but businesses which imply they are defined in primary legislation for the first time. charities are causing problems. Section 3(1) of the Bill defines each of the follow- This Bill will regulate against fraud and make ing as a “charitable purpose”: it easier for charities to become established. It (a) the prevention or relief of poverty or allows for new fundraising methods, such as col- economic hardship; lection of promises of money by means of direct debit, to be used. Those of us who walk through (b) the advancement of education; 567 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 568

[Deputy Chris Andrews.] the Bill’s definition of “charitable purpose” to (c) the advancement of religion; include a reference to “human rights”. We should ensure we do not deter those who wish to engage (d) any other purpose that is of benefit to in spontaneous fundraising such as that carried the community. out to raise funds for the Giraffe incubator, to Like many representatives of charities and non- which I alluded earlier. We also need to consider governmental organisations, I am concerned that the role of voluntary advocacy groups. the promotion of human rights is not explicitly mentioned in this definition, particularly in an Deputy Charlie O’Connor: I am pleased to age in which human rights abuses are reported in share time with my good friend, Deputy Chris newspapers on a daily basis. I urge the Minister Andrews. I welcome the opportunity to make a of State, Deputy Michael Kitt, to consider on brief contribution on the Charities Bill 2007, Committee Stage the inclusion of a reference to which I warmly welcome. I will attempt not to try “human rights” in the definition. I will certainly the patience of the Chair other than to mention support such a move on his part. that while listening to Deputy Barrett’s excellent Given that human rights are being abused in contribution, I thought for a moment I had places like Burma, Darfur, Iraq and North Korea, strayed into a health debate. I mean that in the it is vital that we protect charities which try to nicest possible way. promote and protect human rights at home and Like other speakers, I applaud the efforts of abroad. Having signed up to the Universal Dec- my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Pat laration on Human Rights and many other inter- Carey, in his new position. He is badly missed on national human rights treaties, Ireland should our corridor — his office used to be on the same reflect its human rights policies in primary legis- corridor as my office — since his promotion, with lation. If it can be done in Scottish and English which I was delighted. I am glad that Deputy legislation, why can it not be done in Irish legis- Carey has been able to leave Finglas, as Deputy lation? The protection of animal rights is men- Andrews mentioned. The new Minister of State tioned in the Bill, but human rights are not. I has already been to Tallaght on two occasions, would like to seek clarification on this point. I ask which is something that pleases me. While his the Minister to address it. remit as Minister of State with responsibility for We need to support, rather than discourage, drugs policy is an important part of his job spontaneous community fundraising. There is description, it is good that he is concentrating uncertainty about the implications of the Bill for some of his energies on the community aspect of people who organise or take part in such fund- his portfolio. raising in response to disasters such as the As someone who comes from a community tsunami crisis of 2004. As I understand it, all work background, I have often said that I was charitable groups of all sizes will have to register not born a politician — I was a happy community with the proposed charities regulatory authority. worker before I strayed into politics after getting I am concerned that this provision could act as a interested in various things. I am happy to be a deterrent to fundraising. This legislation does not local politician in the south west of Dublin. We clearly set out the requirements or exceptions should always remember our backgrounds in which will apply to permits in the case of excep- community work and it is good to be able to do tional one-off community responses to urgent so in a debate like this. I acknowledge the pres- needs. If this matter is not clarified, people might ence of the recently appointed Minister of State not be willing to organise such responses because with responsibility for overseas development, they might be afraid of falling foul of the law, Deputy Michael Kitt, who is aware of my interest which would be a terrible additional consequence in his area of concern. He has been given the hard for those who have already been affected by task of succeeding my hard-working colleague in tragedy. This aspect of the Bill should be con- Dublin South-West, the Minister of State, Deputy sidered further on Committee Stage and exemp- Conor Lenihan, whose work in that role I was tions should be made for local, short-term col- always happy to support. lections. I hope Opposition colleagues will support this I welcome the Charities Bill 2007, which will Bill because it is good legislation. I note the pur- put in place a much-needed framework for the pose of the Bill is to reform the laws currently organisation of charitable services in Ireland. relating to charities and to create a composite While that framework may need to be examined regulatory framework through a combination of further, it is pleasing that the Bill recognises the new provisions and retention of old ones with long-standing and ever-growing tradition of vol- updates where appropriate. untary work in Ireland. This legislation will Charitable purposes will be defined for the first increase public confidence in charities and pro- time in primary legislation. Discrimination of tect charities and donors. We have to safeguard eligibility for certain tax exemption on funds the independence and strength of the proposed applied for charitable purposes will, however, charities regulatory authority. We need to revise remain exclusively the function of the Revenue 569 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 570

Commissioners. The Bill will provide for the I usually spend time on Tuesdays reading the establishment of the Charities Regulatory Auth- Tallaght Echo and the Tallaght Voice but I also ority which will have strong powers of investi- read The Irish Times yesterday. I refer to an gation and co-operation with law enforcement, excellent article by Ivan Cooper from The Wheel but it will also operate in a supportive manner, about this legislation. It provides an insight into giving guidance where necessary. The existing the legislation and is written in an easy to read function of the board of the Commission for style. He made some valid points. I am pleased Charitable Donations and Bequests will transfer The Wheel, like other organisations, welcomes fully to the new authority when this is established. the publication of the Charities Bill 2007. It has A key function of the new authority will be the noted that community and voluntary organis- establishment and maintenance of a register of ations working for charitable purposes have been charities in Ireland which is to be welcomed as urging the Government to regulate charities for there is no such register at present. Registration many years. The Wheel makes the point that a will be mandatory for all charities operating in range of important issues will need to be Ireland. It will be an offence for a body not on the addressed if the Bill is to provide a supportive register to claim charitable status or to operate regulation in order for charities to thrive and or fundraise in Ireland. The legislation governing make their contribution so that Ireland is a better fundraising, which dates from 1962, will be place in which to live. updated to include the regulation of collections Ivan Cooper stated that what he describes as and promises of money, that is, collection by the long-awaited passage through the Oireachtas direct debit which have up to now been outside of this Bill is important in that the Bill when the permit system. enacted will ensure that charities remain entitled Charitable organisations will be required to to engage in all types of campaigning and differ- provide annual returns to the authority on ent activities relating to furthering their legit- activity and accounts information on a gradual imate charitable purposes. He notes that working basis, depending on the size of the organisation. to promote human rights and social justice are This information will be available to the public. explicitly named as charitable purposes. He states Aspects of the Bill relating to annual reporting that charities must also be financially supported and accounts by charities already subject to the to rise to the additional demands that working in Companies Act are under discussion with the a regulated environment will impose. The Wheel Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employ- makes the point that voluntary organisations ment and the Companies Registration Office to must be able to plan if they are to be a source of ensure that the potential for dual reporting is innovation in public service delivery as per the maintained. The Bill sets out the circumstances in Towards 2016 national agreement. which a person ceases to be qualified to hold a I am pleased the Minister of State, Deputy Pat position of charity trustee. A register of disquali- Carey, is present. He has a busy schedule dealing fied persons will be available to the public. with the Government’s drug programme, which is I noted with interest the remarks of my col- part of his remit. I appreciate his work in that league, Deputy Chris Andrews. It is appropriate regard. I have already acknowledged that he has that the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Kitt, visited Tallaght twice as Minister of State and I is present. I come from a generation which used urge him to keep coming. Deputy McGrath to drop pennies into the box for the black babies would also be very welcome in Tallaght. I am — this description might not be allowed today. pleased to see him in the House. He is nearly as As a very small child I was aware that I did not well known in Tallaght as I am through all his want to go to school without a penny for the exploits. I suspect he is probably one of the best black babies and this has formed my view about known Deputies in the whole country. charities. I have been associated over the years with John Deputy Michael P. Kitt: He is a good Galway O’Shea and Goal and their great work over the man. past 30 years as a result of my involvement with the community games. I regarded it as good use Deputy Charlie O’Connor: The Minister of of the goodwill of sports stars who were prepared State has community responsibilities and I wish to give their time, expertise and name to ensure him well in that regard. that moneys were collected. It should not be forgotten that charity begins at home, with many Deputy Joe Costello: I wish to share time with demands in all our communities. Other col- Deputy Arthur Morgan. leagues have referred to their constituencies so I The Labour Party has been asking for a Chari- will mention Tallaght where I am always happy ties Bill for a considerable time. The perception to offer practical support for the various charities was that the public regarded proper account- in my constituency, including the children’s ability, transparency and credibility as being lack- hospital in Tallaght which I am keen to promote ing in the operation of charities. The perception at every opportunity. was that some organisations were good, some 571 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 572

[Deputy Joe Costello.] I am not sure what the situation of the Irish were bad and some were using an inordinate Council for Civil Liberties is under this legis- amount of their income for administrative pur- lation. Will it be covered by the new definition of poses, that money generously donated by the a benefit to the community? Will Amnesty Inter- public took a long time to reach the intended national be covered by it? Will any of the bodies recipients and some money may never have promoting the rights of migrants in the com- reached the people in dire need of it. munity be covered in terms of charitable status? Ireland and the Irish people have always been It would be a shame if they were excluded. It generous in their contributions to charitable would be appropriate to put down an amendment causes. This is one of the positive virtues of this to section 3(8) to effect this change. Section 3(8) nation which is to be commended and no obstacle states: should be put in the way of maintaining this gen- In this section “purpose that is of benefit to erosity due to a perception of a lack of trans- the community” includes: parency, accountability or trust. It is important that a mechanism is provided on a statutory basis (a) the advancement of community wel- to ensure business is operated in a proper fashion. fare including the relief of those in need by I am pleased there is a definition of what con- reason of youth, age, ill-health, or disability, stitutes a charity, although I am not sure I agree with all the areas specified. It is important to have The subsection covers a range of other areas, a regulatory authority and a register including the advancement of conflict resolution 6 o’clock of charities. Most importantly, the or reconciliation, the promotion of religious or charity must provide an annual racial harmony, protection of the natural envir- report. That is a key issue. As with all bodies that onment, the advancement of arts, culture and so are established on a statutory basis, it is essential forth and the integration of those who are dis- that there is an appeals mechanism so charitable advantaged and the promotion of their full par- organisations which believe they have not been ticipation in society. However, it does not specifi- treated fairly by the regulatory authority have an cally cover human or civil rights or equality opportunity to make their case to a higher and issues. These should be included. That would be separate authority. expected of us under the European Convention The most important provision relates to the on Human Rights as well as under our broader annual report. The report should be a clear state- international commitments under the United ment of audited accounts, what has happened in Nations Charter. the course of the year, where and how the money I have reservations about the exclusion of all was collected, how it was disbursed in terms of political issues and of groups whose principal administration and what proportion was directed object is to promote a political cause. There are where it was intended to go. That level of different views on that provision. However, there accountability and transparency will be an enor- should be an amendment to include human rights mous benefit to the public. and civil liberties. That would enormously What will happen to the church gate collec- improve the legislation. tions? Will we be able to continue to hold them? The legislation is welcome. I hope the regulat- Any form of political activity is specifically ory mechanisms do not become too bureaucratic excluded from the Bill so I do not know how the but if the legislation provides the accountability Deputies who hold annual church gate collections and transparency that is intended, the House will will account for them. Will they simply have to have done a good day’s work. account to the parish priest or will they have to go to a higher forum? Deputy Arthur Morgan: I wish the Minister of I am concerned about a matter which was State, Deputy Pat Carey, comhghairdeas mo´ r and brought to my attention by the Irish Council for wish him well with his new portfolio. He faces a Civil Liberties. Under section 3(8), the list of huge challenge, although he has made a good matters that are included in the broad definition start by getting out and about and meeting the of “benefit to the community” where that is the groups involved. Long may that closeness with purpose of a charitable organisation, there is no the people at the coalface continue. The Minister express reference to the advancement or pro- has been most sincere in that endeavour. He has motion of human rights, social justice, equality or a huge area of responsibility, which is not uncon- diversity. These are huge issues in Irish society nected with the spate of shootings and ludicrous and for new immigrants. It is strange that human murders that has been visited on Irish society in rights should be excluded. There is surely no recent times. The drugs problem lies behind those better charitable cause or benefit to the com- events. It is a huge challenge. munity. The equality issues that are part and par- I am tempted to comment on the ludicrous cel of human existence and where difficulties suggestion that the Army should be deployed on occasionally arise should be specifically covered the streets. It conjures images of sandbags built by the legislation. up on the corners of roads, barbed wire and gun 573 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 574 battles between the Army and the drugs gangs. A Estimates indicate that approximately 60% of better way of dealing with the issue would involve income generated by the charities sector comes communities coming together with the agencies from the State. In supporting the valuable work involved and the Garda to put these people off done by many of these organisations, we must the streets long before it reaches the gun fight recognise that they are no alternative to stage. However, that can be discussed at another reforming the State. time. It is also a fact that charities or charitable Sinn Feín welcomes the introduction of the organisations such as rotary clubs allow the Charities Bill. The legislation has been long wealthy to feel better about being wealthy in an promised and is overdue. Until now, the charities unequal society. They allow them to feel good sector has been largely unregulated. The Bill has about their benevolent gestures while feeling been widely welcomed by community and volun- secure that these acts should be enough to tary organisations. It is in the interest of these prevent the disadvantaged from challenging the and other charitable organisations to have proper establishment and demanding their rights. While regulation of the sector. Sinn Feín welcomes the recognising the good work that many of these proposed establishment of a charities regulatory groups do, we must not forget that it is the role authority and the fact that charities will be of the State to concentrate its efforts on obliged to register. This is vital to ensure account- delivering many of these services for its citizens. ability and to protect against abuse of the tax Politicians and others who pride themselves on related exemptions granted to charities or fraud their support for various charitable organisations by those purporting to be charities. should better use their time and position to Prior to the introduction of the regulation pro- ensure the elimination of poverty and the deliv- posed in the Bill, there were real concerns regard- ery of proper services by the State. The public ing the integrity of some charities and about how should recognise the irony of any member of much of the money given to charities went to Government or Government party patronising those for whom it was intended. Sinn Feín charities which exist because the ideologically- believes it is vital that once the charities register driven policies pursued by the Government have is up and running, the Revenue Commissioners brought about an increasingly unequal society. should make compliance with registration a con- We need a rights-based approach to eliminating dition for getting tax exemption status. The Mini- the inequalities in society. ster should clarify whether this will be the case. I agree very much with the comments of a Regarding proposals to exclude from the regis- Catholic theologian carried in today’s newspapers ter organisations which primarily promote politi- regarding those prominent individuals who cal causes, concerns have been raised that this is engage in philanthropy while at the same time both unworkable and unfair and will potentially avoiding paying their fair share of tax by availing result in some organisations being unfairly of tax exile status. He is right when he states: “In excluded as it is impossible to identify what con- a fair society, justice comes before charity.” Phil- stitutes a political cause. This seems to be a valid anthropy is no replacement for the delivery of concern when one considers the recent incident public and social services by the State nor for the of the censoring by the Broadcasting Commission implementation of Government polices to bring of Ireland of Tro´ caire’s campaign on gender about the elimination of poverty. equality. A number of other diverse concerns are Another area I feel requires debate is that of raised by groups likely to be affected and it is tax relief for charitable donations. However, this hoped these will be teased out on Committee is a separate matter from the Bill. I will conclude Stage. with a heading I saw in a newspaper many years In many cases, charities deliver services which ago which stated: “Damn your charity, we want should rightly be delivered by the State and fill justice.” Internationally, this is the cry of many gaps in the State’s provision of social services. people. I hope a global effort is made to ensure While charities have a role in society, it is not that charity is no longer required but rather that acceptable for the Government to offload social justice will replace it. I look forward to teasing services to the voluntary sector and charities. The out the issues involved in the Bill on Committee explosion of charities in recent years is a symp- Stage and I hope the Government will take a tom of the increasing inequality in our society. In practical approach to ensure it improves as legis- many cases, the growth of charities facilitates the lation. I welcome this process. State in negating its role in the provision of housing services, the elimination of poverty and the Deputy Michael McGrath: I wish to share time provision of facilities for the elderly, young with my namesake, Deputy Finian McGrath. people and the disabled. Charities undertake ever more responsibility Acting Chairman: Is that agreed? Agreed. for services which should rightly be provided by the State. However, charities still receive the Deputy Michael McGrath: I congratulate my majority of their funding from the State. colleague, Deputy Pat Carey, on his appointment 575 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 576

[Deputy Michael McGrath.] community. Aside from obvious charitable organ- as Minister of State and I wish him well in his isations such as GOAL, St. Vincent De Paul and new post. He hit the ground running and did a the Simon Community, other groups which may tour of the country over the summer meeting var- be affected by the Bill also spring to mind such ious local drug task forces and community groups. as senior citizens groups, groups associated with His is a challenging portfolio and he has my full fundraising for hospitals, church renovation com- support in tackling those challenges. mittees, community associations, youth clubs, The Irish people have time and again been pro- Lions clubs, active retired groups and even resi- ven to be among the most generous in the world dents’ associations. in terms of making donations to a broad range of Almost every voluntary or community group in charitable causes. We are not slow to respond to the country carries out some element of fund- the call for help whether it is providing foreign raising as part of its work. It will be a challenge aid to Third World countries or helping to fund- to differentiate the groups for whom fundraising raise for local community projects. All Deputies is their core business and those for whom it is know of many examples of fundraising in their merely ancillary to what they do. We need to con- communities which help deliver real progress. sider the extent to which this Bill is intended to People may not know that this year as a Govern- regulate the thousands of community and volun- ment we will provide more than \800 million in tary groups throughout the country. It might be overseas aid. worth considering the examination of whether There has never been more fundraising in fundraising is a group’s principal activity. Ireland than there is today or more competition The establishment of the charities regulatory for our generosity. Therefore, the introduction of authority is a welcome initiative. We need a spec- the Bill is timely and appropriate. I warmly wel- ific authority to regulate this area. However, as come the introduction of the Charities Bill 2007, many Deputies stated, we cannot allow the auth- which for the first time will provide a comprehen- ority to become a bureaucratic institution which sive and composite regulatory framework for deters and discourage charitable work. I know the charities in Ireland. It is important that the chari- Minister is anxious that the new regulatory ties sector is regulated, so that bona fide charities regime should not be viewed as an obstacle to can go about their work without a cloud of sus- the work of charities and I am delighted the new picion hanging over them. authority will have a supportive role and will not I wish to put on record my appreciation for the merely be a watchdog. work of so many volunteers throughout Ireland Many community-based charities do not have who give up their time for charitable causes. substantial resources and we cannot impose oner- Whether it be standing at a church gate collection ous administrative requirements on them. I am or carrying out essential administrative work, pleased the new authority will produce an annual these volunteers are the backbone of the chari- report, which will be laid before this House, pro- table sector in Ireland today and long may it viding a degree of transparency across the chari- continue. table sector that we have not witnessed before. The principal benefit of the Bill is the account- The register of charities will provide a central ability it will bring to the work of charitable public register of charities in Ireland. I hope this organisations. This will enhance public confi- register will be accessible to the public in a practi- dence and trust in the sector, and should address cal way such as being placed on a website to be any concerns among the public about where their established by the regulatory authority. At least donations actually end up. This is a key point. the public will now have a benchmark to assess Often the reluctance or unwillingness of people the bona fides of a charity which comes knocking to give money to organisations is because they on the door. simply have no assurance of whether the money I note taxation issues concerning charities will ends up going towards the intended beneficiary continue to remain a matter for the Revenue or how much of it does. Commissioners. The commissioners already grant The term “charity” has taken on a broad and charitable tax exemption under the Taxes Con- disparate interpretation and I am pleased the Bill solidation Act 1997 and other statutes and the provides a definition of “charitable purposes” for regulation introduced in the Charities Bill should the first time in primary legislation. It is true the assist the Revenue Commissioners in their definition is broad and inclusive. However, given adjudication of the charitable nature of each the wide range of charitable activity in communi- organisation applying for tax exemption. ties today, deciding whether the work of a part- This Bill will especially enable us to gain a icular group falls within the definition of “charit- greater understanding and appreciation of the able purposes” will be a difficult task. unincorporated charitable organisations which Section 3 provides that “charitable purposes” will also be required to submit an annual report includes “a purpose that is of benefit to the com- to the regulatory authority or such other mechan- munity” and it proceeds to provide a number of ism as the Minister or the authority will decide. broad descriptions of what is of benefit to the This requirement will act as a deterrent to bogus 577 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 578 charities and protect against abuse of the good- However, charities have a duty to be honest will of the public. Incorporated charities are and straight with the public. They have to be already subject to the provisions of the Compan- accountable because in many cases they deal with ies Acts and the reporting requirements of the vast amounts of money and public trust is a huge new authority will introduce a level playing field issue. It is not acceptable to have charities with among all charities. It is important that the huge sums of money in their accounts. This is reporting requirements are simple and straight- public money collected from citizens of the State forward and that the administration does not and it should be spent on the issues for which it become an undue burden on charities. was collected. Politicians regularly get hammered The Law Reform Commission has recom- on trust and accountability, and rightly so. mended a new legal structure for charitable However, charities too have to step up to the organisations, the charitable incorporated organ- mark. Is it acceptable that some charities have isation. The Minister is correct in not delaying the huge sums of money in their accounts or own regulation of the sector pending examination of huge valuable properties while those they are the significant issues involved in this unified supposed to help are often left behind. I hear this structure, recommended by the Law Reform regularly in my constituency. Commission. I speak as one who has been a voluntary Having read the briefing paper prepared by worker for a number of charities over 20 years. I The Wheel, the national network that supports entered politics through the voluntary and com- charities, to which Deputy O’Connor referred, it munity sector. I have seen situations about which has made a valid point on the issue of spon- I was not happy and it is up to everyone to be taneous community fundraising. We do not want straight and honest with the public. That is the a situation where the regulation of the charitable reason I welcome the Bill today. I ask some of sector prevents this type of fundraising, which our so-called rich kids to stop using charities as a often takes place on the spur of the moment, cover-up to present a positive image to some of immediately after a tragic event of some kind. their activities. It is time for the likes of Bono and These groups are ad hoc and respond to an Denis O’Brien to stay in Ireland and do their unforeseen need which has arisen in a com- work here, pay their taxes like everyone else and munity. All Deputies will have experience of the stop using charities to bolster their egos. If they obstacle on community activity that insurance has are serious about making a contribution to Irish become. We do not want regulation to become a society, they should pay their taxes like everyone similar obstacle to community fundraising. else and support our charities. Let us look at The Bill is warmly welcomed as it provides an Chuck Feeney who wants no reward and donates appropriate and responsible regulatory envir- hundreds of millions to the poorest of the poor onment for charities in Ireland today. The new as well as giving major donations to education regime will enhance public trust and confidence institutions here. People like Chuck Feeney in the charitable sector and will, hopefully, result should be honoured by this country for his role in an even greater level of generosity to charities in giving to Ireland and in the peace process. by the Irish people. I look forward to discussing Let us have a proper honours system also for some of the details of the Bill in the weeks ahead. our own people. It might reduce the sad scenes I commend the Minister on bringing forward of Irish citizens accepting knighthoods or MBEs the Bill and look forward to seeing its progression from the British. Let us grow up and have our in the weeks ahead. own awards and honours systems. Chuck Feeney should be first on that list. I am always saddened Deputy Finian McGrath: I am grateful for the when Irish citizens accept honours from monar- opportunity to contribute to this new legislation, chists. All democrats should back the call for a the Charities Bill 2007. I welcome and congratu- proper honours system for people who do great late the Minister of State, Deputy Pat Carey, on things for our people, the poor, the disadvantaged his recent promotion and wish him well in his and our country. The political parties should stop new job. bickering, work together on this matter and sup- I welcome this important Bill as there has been port the introduction of a new honours system. a need for many years to regulate charities. I am I thank all Deputies and members of the public one of those who has been pushing this agenda. who donated money and sent text messages to me Before going into the details of the legislation it when I was involved in the charity, “You’re a is important to commend and thank the many Star”, three years ago. We helped to raise more worthwhile charities and voluntary groups in this than \80,000 which went directly to a project for country. They have played and continue to play children with disability. I thank and commend all a leading part in Irish civic life. It is essential that my cross-party colleagues in the House who regu- we all put this on the record and thank the volun- larly donate money to worthwhile charities and tary workers in charities on the ground. They are causes. The public who are often cynical about serving their country well and we commend and politicians should be aware of this reality. Many thank them for their efforts. Members make substantial donations regularly to 579 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 580

[Deputy Finian McGrath.] three years of accounts, the charity’s constitution charities. I thank and commend my colleagues for and details of how it intends to raise funds. their work on this issue. Section 3 defines ‘’charitable purposes’’ for the The purpose of the Bill is to enact a reform first time in primary legislation. A purpose is of the law relating to charities to ensure greater regarded as charitable if its aim is the prevention accountability and to protect against abuse of or relief of poverty or economic hardship; the charitable status and fraud. It will also enhance advancement of education; the advancement of public trust and confidence in charities and religion; or any other purpose that is of benefit to increase transparency in the sector. The key the community. aspects of the Bill will provide for a definition of ’’Purpose that is of benefit to the community’’ charitable purpose for the first time in primary includes the advancement of community welfare, legislation, establish a new regulatory authority including the relief of those in need by reason of to secure compliance by charities with their legal youth, age, ill-health or disability. It is very obligations and encourage better administration important that we support the organisations that of charities, establish a register of charities in campaign for people with disabilities. It also which all charities operating in the State must includes the advancement of community develop- register, provide for annual activity reports by ment, including rural or urban regeneration and charities to the new authority and update the law the promotion of civic responsibility or voluntary relating to fundraising, particularly in relation to work in the community. I commend all those collections by way of direct debits and similar involved in the voluntary sector and I send my non-cash methods. These key aspects of the legis- best wishes to our team at the Special Olympics lation are positive and progressive developments. in China, who have done magnificent work in this In regard to charities, the centre for non-profit area. We should all support them. management at Trinity College estimates that the It also includes the promotion of health, includ- voluntary sector generates an annual income of ing the prevention or relief of sickness, disease or about \2.5 billion, with about \500 million of that human suffering and the advancement of conflict coming from fundraising. According to figures resolution or reconciliation. I raised the issue of from Trinity College, approximately 60% of the conflict resolution during my talks with the income generated by charities comes from the Taoiseach on my programme for government in State. There are about 700 people directly my so-called deal. I commend the Minister for employed as fundraisers. Trust is a key issue with Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, on the \25 million allocated to the fund to assist with the public and the taxpayers. There are many resolving conflicts throughout the world. Again cases where rip-off merchants are involved and Ireland is showing itself as a leading light in the all this will be dealt with in the legislation. That area of conflict resolution. This is also mentioned the not-for-profit sector accounted for 8% of in the legislation. Ireland’s GDP would not be known to many ’’Purpose that is of benefit to the community’’ people. While big brand charities such as Oxfam, also includes the protection of the natural envir- UNICEF, Goal and Concern are often most onment; the prevention or relief of suffering of recognised by the public, many of the charities animals; the advancement of the arts, culture, operating in Ireland are very small. According to heritage or sciences; and the integration of those the research conducted by Trinity College, half who are disadvantaged, and the promotion of of all responding organisations had an income of \ their full participation in society. We have many 40,000 or less in 2003. The college’s research voluntary groups in Dublin North-Central in showed that less than 10% of organisations Marino, Coolock, Artane, Beaumont, Clontarf, \ earned an average income of 738,205 or more in Raheny and Donnycarney that are doing excel- 2003, while a further 10% earned an income of lent work. They are a small band of people in \ 1,300 or less. It is clear there are huge as well as their own community who do magnificent work. smaller charities. Incidentally the smaller chari- I take this opportunity to thank those involved in ties make a massive contribution also. voluntary groups including residents and sports Legislation will ensure clarity on accounts. For groups who give of their time regularly. We all the numerous charities in Ireland, the new Chari- know how valuable time is. We all know there is ties Bill will change the way they operate when it a problem now with the idea of active citizenship is passed into law. One of the key changes will be and we need to give consideration to this area the establishment of a charity regulatory auth- because of the great contribution of those people. ority, a regulatory body for charitable organ- I commend the people in Dublin North-Central isations. on the excellent work they do in the voluntary All new charities will now be required to apply and community sector. to this body to be registered as a charitable It is important to focus on and prioritise the organisation. Existing charities will be given six disadvantaged in our society, who will always be months to register, which I welcome. The regis- a priority for voluntary and community groups tration process will require the charity to supply whether they are the sick, elderly, disabled or dis- 581 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 582 advantaged. It is up to the State sector to com- campaigning and advocacy work related to furth- plement the voluntary groups. There are many ering their legitimate charity purposes and that examples in my constituency where a consider- working to promote human rights and social able amount of money is going into disadvan- justice are specifically named as charitable pur- taged areas. Many Deputies want to know what poses. I welcome that the charities regulatory is in the deal with the Government. These are all authority will have the power to institute investi- issues in the deal with the Government. I want to gations, to call for documents and search records ensure that Deputy Terence Flanagan knows that of all charities, to enter premises on foot of a so that he can spread the word particularly in search warrant and to impose sanctions on Irish Raheny. It is very important that we support the charities and foreign-based charities with admini- disadvantaged in our society. stration bases in Ireland. I also welcome the sig- I welcome this progressive and sensible legis- nificant penalties for offences. lation that gives priority to charities. It will also At present, we have no central register of ensure that the public has trust that there will be public charities and a key function of the regulat- honesty and accountability in dealing with ory authority will be the establishment and main- charities. tenance of a register of charitable organisations. The public will have access to this and will be Deputy Terence Flanagan: First, I wish to con- able to check the facts and figures of any charity gratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Pat Carey, about which they may be unsure. It should ensure on his new role. I wish him well for the future. I that we can eliminate all the bogus charities. The congratulate him on the publication of the Bill. authority will also have the power to remove It is estimated that there are more than 19,000 from the register a body that has infringed the community and voluntary organisations working law. It will be an offence for a body not to regis- for charitable purposes in Ireland and that the ter, to claim it is a charity or to operate or raise sector contributes more than \2.5 billion to the funds. No doubt the key purpose of the register economy each year. The sector employs more is to promote transparency and the register will than 63,000 full-time and part-time staff and is enable the public to confirm the bona fides of very important for the economy. It is imperative charities, thereby limiting the scope for fraud. that this industry is appropriately regulated, as The Bill also provides that all charitable organis- charities themselves would be the first to admit. ations will be required to make annual reports, While I welcome the Bill’s publication, it is which will be accessible to the public apart from necessary for the Government to support chari- those in respect of private trusts that are not ties as promised in Towards 2016 by providing funded by donations from the public, which is additional resources to assist the sector in meet- fair enough. ing its obligations in a new regulatory envir- Some of my concerns would include the fund- onment. The Bill will help to reform the law relating for community and voluntary organisations. ing to charities in order to ensure accountability We need a new framework for the statutory fund- and to protect against abuse of charitable status ing of voluntary organisations, which should and fraud. We are all aware of many charities that provide multi-annual funding for the direct and are household names. However, there are many indirect or hidden costs of running such organis- other charities which I am not sure are even legal. ations. The funding should also be index-linked. Adopting the Bill will enhance public trust and We also need to improve the tax incentives for confidence in charities and increase transparency donations to charities and voluntary organisations in the sector. This Bill, along with the Charities so that all donations are tax effective as opposed Acts 1961 and 1973 and the Street and House to to the current system whereby only donations House Collections Act 1962, will provide a strong greater than \250 per year can be made in a tax- regulatory framework for charities. The Bill will efficient manner. Hopefully, the Minister of State also streamline the many authorities that regulate will re-examine this issue. a charity’s work and will clarify the duties He also needs to put in place an infrastructure attaching to directors and trustees. of support for the voluntary sector in Ireland Key aspects of the Bill that I welcome include: similar to that provided by IDA Ireland and a definition for the first time of “charitable pur- Enterprise Ireland to the business community. pose”; the establishment of a charity appeals tri- This new support organisation should target the bunal; a new regulatory authority to secure com- needs of voluntary organisations and provide pliance by charities with their legal obligations training, advice and supports in the area of board and also to encourage better administration of management, governance, leadership, general charities; a register of charities in which all chari- management and financial management. ties operating in the State must register; and that I thank all those volunteers who give of their annual reports will need to be supplied by the time freely and they should be commended on charities to the new authority. all the great work they do. I was delighted to be The Bill, when enacted, should ensure that involved in the Special Olympics. It was one of charities remain entitled to engage in all types of the best things I did in my life. One gets more 583 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 584

[Deputy Terence Flanagan.] tax status, which will generate interest in the back from giving than anything else. We should future. The definition of “charity” in the tax code all support and enable voluntary activity in is an important issue and I hope the bureaucrats Ireland to be conducted in a purposeful and stra- do not decide when the regulatory system is tegic manner. This will be achieved when com- established that local causes do not qualify for munity and voluntary organisations are funded charitable status. That represents my greatest appropriately, regulated sensitively and sup- fear. I would like the Minister of State to take ported comprehensively. I support this legislation my concerns on board so that local spontaneous and I ask the Minister of State to take note of efforts to raise funds do not lose charitable tax my concerns. status as these efforts will always be needed. Ireland has enjoyed a great deal from volun- Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: I congratulate the teers over the years and that has been a trait of Minister of State who laboured long and hard our communities and individuals. However, as we before receiving his just reward on his appoint- have become more affluent, the tendency has ment. I have no doubt he will be successful, which been to leave more voluntary activities to the will be to the benefit of the House and the State. statutory authorities. For example, organisations I welcome the legislation, which has a great are educating people as to what they can do most deal of merit because it proposes to put in place efficiently in regard to donations that have tax regulations to cater for various charities. Many benefits. Good charities write to people from Members have mentioned the significant work time to time seeking donations for very good carried out by charitable organisations. Signifi- causes. Occasionally, a charity highlights the tax cant amounts are raised by voluntary groups at status and benefits that could result from con- local and national level and they have done a tributing to its cause. When I read the expla- great deal to alleviate the burden of the taxpayer nation for this, I tend to be less helpful than if I as much of the money is devoted to causes that had free rein to do my own thing. Volunteering ordinarily would be the responsibility of the has two sides to it. When one is asked to volun- Exchequer. We should remind ourselves of this. I teer in whatever capacity, that should be at hope the legislation does not replace the volun- one’s discretion. tary spirit among the public and recognises the necessity to ensure that continues. It would be Deputy Tom Hayes: I welcome the opportunity hugely negative if the spontaneity involved in vol- to contribute to the debate. Like every other unteering for which the Irish have become fam- speaker, I congratulate the Minister of State and ous is interfered with or if regulations inhibit or wish him the best of luck. impede volunteerism. Notwithstanding that, the amounts raised by Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: He is a nice guy. charities have increased and this has created temptation. It is, therefore, important and right Deputy Tom Hayes: He worked hard on the that regulations should be introduced. Previous backbenches over a long number of years and contributors referred to the establishment of everybody was delighted that he was promoted another quango. While I worry about how bureaucratic the system might become, I ask the Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Even Vincent Minister of State to ensure the minimum impos- Browne. ition results from the increased bureaucracy. I do not have the greatest respect for bureaucracy Deputy Tom Hayes: We should all welcome because by its very amorphous nature, it tends to the opportunity to contribute to Bills that touch damp down the spontaneity and voluntary spirit on something central to Irish life and which that exists and it has usually done more damage improve the quality of life of our people. Irish and been more costly than if the status quo had charities have contributed a great deal through- pertained. out our history and their role is no less important Local spontaneous fundraising is usually for a today. Many volunteers give of their time and good cause. For example, if a house burns down income to charities and this should be encouraged and the family do not have insurance, people will above all else. The legislation should mean rally round for such an extremely good cause and people can contribute in a safe and fuss free man- engage in instant action. Benefit nights for ner. We want charities to be as professional as families who have lost a member tragically are possible but it is crucial that giving to charities a regular occurrence. I recognise the need for a does not become bogged down in paperwork and statutory basis for the operation of charities but bureaucracy. I am extremely concerned because the Minister of State should be careful not to go when a new body or agency is established, it usu- overboard because if he does, people will be ally leads to more paperwork. By its nature, turned off and they will say if that is the way the involvement in charities means people give of Government wants it, then it should deal with their time voluntarily at nights and weekends. It these issues itself. I refer to the issue of charitable is important that, while checks and balances are 585 Charities Bill 2007: 10 October 2007. Second Stage (Resumed) 586 needed, the legislation ensures the need for ations based in Third World countries. I have vis- paperwork and bureaucracy is kept to a mini- ited some of these places and seen at first hand mum. Many changes introduced by legislation in the impact of the contributions made by Irish the past have resulted in additional form filling people. It is important that we, as the second and work. When the Bill proceeds through its wealthiest economy in the world, should lead the final Stages, I appeal for the bureaucracy and way in terms of assistance to developing coun- form filling to be kept to a minimum. Otherwise, tries. Regulation in this regard is welcome, our work today and in coming weeks on this legis- whether it involves flag days in schools, for lation will be of little use. example, or collections outside supermarkets. It There is some concern that the Bill will merely is important that we support the activities of vol- serve to set up yet another quango. I would like unteers whether they are based at home or more assurance from the Government that this abroad. We must make it easier for the many will not be the case. It is important that this people who engage in such wonderful work on an House does not allow a quango to be established ongoing basis. in this instance. Unlike so many other State agencies, the charities regulatory authority should not Deputy Michael Moynihan: I propose to share be based in Dublin but elsewhere in the State. time with Deputy Mansergh. Decentralisation is something we have all welcomed and supported, although we had hoped it An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Agreed. would progress at a faster rate. Deputy Michael Moynihan: I congratulate the Deputy Martin Mansergh: It was welcomed by Leas-Cheann Comhairle on his appointment to some but not all of the Deputy’s colleagues. office. I also congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, on his appointment. He will do an Deputy Tom Hayes: It is easy to welcome excellent job in steering this legislation through something that is not happening. the House. This Bill provides for the dissolution of the Deputy Martin Mansergh: It is happening in Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Tipperary. Bequests for Ireland and the establishment of a charities regulatory authority. The former was the Deputy Tom Hayes: It has not happened yet. body to which organisations had to present their requests to relinquish title on property and so Deputy Martin Mansergh: What about the forth. The processing of documentation in such Private Security Authority? cases was a long and cumbersome process as a result of the backlog with which the commis- Deputy Tom Hayes: Deputy Mansergh is trying sioners had to contend. I am aware of several to change the subject of our discussion. The issue cases where there have been lengthy delays in he has raised can be discussed at another time. processing applications in regard to community An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Tom and parish halls and facilities based in school Hayes should be allowed to speak without campuses and diocesan properties. It took a huge interruption. amount of time and effort on behalf of local communities to go through that process. Deputy Tom Hayes: I ask the Minister to con- Much has been said during this debate about sider establishing this authority outside Dublin. the effort expended by voluntary workers in com- The Private Security Authority in Tipperary munities throughout the State. I hope that an town, where 30 people are employed, was not effort will made to streamline the bureaucracy established as part of the decentralisation prog- involved for community organisations when the ramme, but we welcome it. new regulatory authority assumes the powers of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Deputy Martin Mansergh: It was a bonus. Bequests for Ireland. It will be very much welcome if the new body is easier to access and facili- Deputy Tom Hayes: I am sure Deputy tates the speedier processing of documentation. Mansergh agrees it has been extremely successful. I welcome the Bill, which provides clarity in regard to the regulation of charities. It is useful Deputy Martin Mansergh: I absolutely agree. to place such regulation on a statutory footing in terms of what organisations must do in regard to Deputy Tom Hayes: The charities regulatory accounts and so on. Every Member sees at first authority could likewise be based outside Dublin hand in his or her constituency the work that is and could be similarly successful. done by charities. Speakers have referred to Fundraising activities have become part and once-off fundraising efforts in response to part- parcel of our lives. We have a long history of icular tragedies. Other charities raise funds for involvement with charities and voluntary organis- community projects such as sporting facilities. I 587 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 588

[Deputy Michael Moynihan.] — supports the call made by their col- acknowledge the fantastic work undertaken by leagues for an independent investi- volunteers throughout the State and in my own gation into the death of the two fire- area in particular. I have heard some people put fighters; and forth innuendo to the effect that these volunteers — regrets the failure of the Government must be enjoying some personal material gain to implement in full the recom- from their activities. The vast majority, however, mendations of the Farrell Grant Sparks give up their time for no payment and receive no Review of Fire Safety and Fire Services material gain. in Ireland, submitted to the Department All politicians have a duty to encourage people of the Environment, Heritage and Local to become involved in voluntary organisations in Government in January 2002; their local communities. As other speakers observed, there is much to be gained in terms of calls for personal satisfaction in giving of one’s time for — the establishment of a National Auth- charitable purposes. There is a difficulty, ority for Fire and Civil however, particularly in some of the sporting Protection/Emergency Services, one of organisations, in getting young people involved in the key recommendations of the the management and committee structure. I and review; and other Members frequently tell secondary school students about the importance of getting involved — the establishment of full-time fire in their communities and seeking to effect change services in areas of high population, in so far as they can. It is important to put for- such as Bray. ward one’s point of view whether through a resident’s association, sporting organisation, political Debate resumed on amendment No. 1: party and so on. It is only by using one’s voice ´ that one can hope to have one’s views acted upon. To delete all words after “Daíl Eireann” and Some Members voiced concern about the substitute the following: establishment of another quango. However, the purpose of this legislation is to impose order on “— extends again its deepest sympathies to the sector and to eradicate any the families of Brian Murray and Mark 7 o’clock quangos that may have developed. O’Shaughnessy whose deaths occurred The new authority will be easier to in such tragic circumstances; access and deal with and will provide a centralised regulatory framework. The provisions in — extends its deepest sympathies to Brian regard to how charities maintain their accounts and Mark’s colleagues in the Wicklow will be helpful. fire service and to all members of the retained fire service countrywide; Debate adjourned. — acknowledges the courageous service which Brian and Mark gave to the Private Members’ Business. public through their commitment to the Wicklow fire service; ———— — acknowledges the service and dedi- Fire Services: Motion (Resumed). cation of all members of the fire service, both full-time and retained, given to the The following motion was moved by Deputy public across the country; Ciarań Lynch on Tuesday, 9 October 2007: — acknowledges the fact that three inves- That Daíl E´ ireann: tigations are under way by An Garda Sıóchańa, the Health and Safety Auth- — expresses its deep concern at the death ority and Wicklow County Council; of two fire-fighters during the course of a fire in Bray, County Wicklow, on 26 — notes the Government’s commitment to September; implementing any necessary change arising from the outcome of the above — acknowledges the bravery of Brian investigations in the work of supporting Murray and Mark O’Shaughnessy and and developing fire services; extends its profound sympathy to the — notes the significant progress made in families and colleagues of the two men; implementing the key recom- — commends the members of the full-time mendations in the Farrell Grant Sparks and retained fire service across the report of the Review of Fire Safety and country for their sterling work for the Fire Services in Ireland in relation to community; fire safety and fire services and, in part- 589 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 590

icular, the programmes advanced to Earlier this year, I highlighted the problems in enhance the safety of members of the my own constituency experienced by part-time fire service and the public; fire-fighters. They have state-of-the-art equipment, are extremely well trained and train on a — notes that as part of the Government’s regular basis. I have seem them first-hand doing continuing commitment to investment drills and dealing with mock accidents. in, and modernisation of the fire service, the Minister for the Envir- Their being on-call and part-time means they onment, Heritage and Local Govern- cannot have another job. The local authority ment is reviewing the options for con- refuses to sanction a full-time service because of tinuing the fire service change the cost involved despite calls to Ennis fire station programme to ensure that Ireland has a increasing by 20% over the past year. In 2006, it world class fire service to meet the dealt with 569 calls, 98 more than the previous needs of the 21st century; and year. That is a very busy service, with an average of two calls per day. Similar towns, such as Sligo — notes that the options for fire service and Dundalk, have a full-time service despite provision in Bray and its environs are them not receiving as many calls. under consideration, including public The time has come to reform the fire services. consultation, by Wicklow County We need a more professional approach from the Council and that arrangements for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and provision of fire services in all areas of Local Government as fire-fighters not only carry the country are a matter for the relevant out their traditional duties, but must also increase fire authorities, which expend an esti- their role in educating the public with fire aware- mated \240 million per annum in the ness and safety. There should be visits to schools, provision of the service.” as the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, stated —(Minister for the Environment, Heritage and last night, and there should be above all else more Local Government). inspections of our nightclubs, where many young Deputy Pat Breen: I wish to share time with people congregate at night. We do not want Deputies Timmins and Coveney. another Stardust tragedy. Our fire-fighters throughout the country serve An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is that agreed? our communities with distinction, putting them- Agreed. selves in dangerous situations to save lives. Retained fire-fighters, no matter how alert, Deputy Pat Breen: As with previous speakers require five to seven minutes to mobilise, from last night, I firstly convey my sincere sympa- depending on traffic. We are all aware of the grid- thies to the families of Brian Murray and Mark lock on urban roads, so those five or seven O’Shaughnessy, as well as to their fire fighting minutes could make all the difference in saving a colleagues. These men died tragically on valuable life. Wednesday, 26 September while tackling a blaze The art of fire fighting has changed consider- in Bray, County Wicklow. I also commend their ably recently. Thankfully, chimney fires are on families for appearing on the “Late Late Show” the decrease but the service must now deal with last Friday, as they must be praised for speaking chemical spills and fires, fires in high-rise build- out so soon after the loss of their loved ones and ings and apartments, horrific car accidents highlighting the need to reform fire services in resulting from speeding and anti-social behaviour this country. problems such as bogus calls. There were 100 Five years ago, the Government ordered a bogus calls made in my own constituency of Clare review of the fire services, with one key recom- last year. mendation from the review being the need to Only last week thugs set alight an industrial bin establish a national fire authority. To date, outside my constituency office. The fire service nothing has happened in this regard and it is quite was called to the scene but as the fire station in obvious we have not learned from the Stardust Ennis was already dealing with two fires, the tragedy, despite similar recommendations coming Shannon service 22 km away had to deal with it. from its investigations. If another serious incident occurred that morning, Bray, like many other large urban centres, is a there would have been serious pressure on the fast-growing town with a population in the region fire services and the call-out time would have of 32,000. What happened on that fateful morning been increased. in Bray could easily happen in any other town It was chilling to hear the words of the late throughout the country. The scenario is similar in Brian Murray’s family recollecting how he pre- Ennis, which has a population of approximately dicted somebody would die before the end of the 25,000. The fire service in Ennis station has a year unless there was a major overhaul of the fire complement of 16 retained fire-fighters who must services. That speaks for itself. We will always serve the greater area with a population of remember the bravery of the New York fire 60,000 people. services on 11 September 2001 and we will 591 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 592

[Deputy Pat Breen.] In this country the Garda Sı´ocha´na has a Scott remember the bravery of the two fire-fighters medal for bravery and the military has dis- who lost their lives on that fateful morning of 26 tinguished service medals. The fire services only September this year. They have made the ulti- come under general auspices of the Bravery Act mate sacrifice and their bravery and courage will of the 1940s. It is time we considered this matter. be remembered. The last fireman to die on duty in Wicklow was Fine Gael will support and encourage reform Paddy Dooley in 1970, who died in a well. The of the fire services. We ask the Minister not to only recognition he received was from authorities leave the report on the fire services lie in dust in Scotland. I call on the Government to support like other reports. this motion.

Deputy Billy Timmins: I support this motion Deputy Simon Coveney: As with all other and extend my sympathy to the family, relatives speakers, I offer sympathy to the Murray and and friends of the late Brian Murray and Mark O’Shaughnessy families, as well as to the col- O’Shaughnessy. I also extend sympathy to their leagues of the men, some of whom are probably colleagues in the fire service and the people of in the Gallery this evening. Bray. I commend the Labour Party on bringing this People working in the security forces — fire motion forward but I am disappointed the services, the Garda or Army — are too often Government has decided to divide the House on taken for granted. These personnel enter into it. The motion proposed by the Labour Party dangerous situations and we must always remem- appears to be deliberately written in a manner ber they are someone’s son, mother or daughter. making it easy for the Government to support it. The families and colleagues of these men, as It is neither divisive nor political, nor is it asking well as the people of Bray, want more than kind for anything outrageous. It seeks implementation words on this occasion. These men were well of the key findings of a report commissioned by trained and professional in their work. Over a the Government in 2002 and is deliberately number of years we have prevaricated over the ambiguous in asking for a full-time fire service for establishment of a fire authority recommended in areas with high populations or where the popu- the Farrell Grant Sparks report. It is imperative lation has grown dramatically in a relatively short this authority is established to ensure we have a space of time. national standard for training and operation. In The Government has chosen to make a long 2002, the then Minister for the Environment, amendment, which states very little, although it Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, of course offers sympathy. I would have thought stated in reply to a question about implemen- that, considering the background to this motion tation of the recommendations of the report that and debate, it would have been an ideal oppor- “work to this end is continuing”. tunity for us as political parties and politicians in We want a full-time service for Bray and this House to accept a perfectly reasonable similar towns around the country. That is not too Opposition Private Members’ motion for a much to ask. Such action is in the control of change. Wicklow County Council and I urge that body My main argument is that we must recognise to provide such a service. The Government can those working in the fire services, whether they establish the fire authority. are fighting fires or cutting corpses from crashed There should be an independent investigation cars. These people are heroes in many ways, of this affair apart from the current three. The working 24 hours a day depending on what time Garda will investigate this incident with regard to they are called. The least we can do is ensure they criminality, the Health and Safety Authority will receive top-class training and equipment in order probably consider the safety system in work and to minimise the chances of losing their own lives it is unfair to even ask Wicklow County Council or being severely injured in the course of duty. to examine the incident because they are the We are not doing that at present. employers of those in the fire service. A fire-fighter from my constituency, whom I Section 16 of the Fire Services Act 1981 gives know well, telephoned me today and stated that the Minister the power to hold a sworn public the current fire appliance, as he calls it — we inquiry and I call on the Minister, Deputy would term it a fire engine — at his station is Gormley, to do this rather than wait for the out- over ten years old. It was purchased from the UK come of reports which could take several months where it had been decommissioned. We are, and will not establish the exact detail. The least therefore, buying equipment that has been we owe the families, the fire services and the rejected by fire services in England, transporting public is to establish exactly what happened. The it to Ireland and expecting our part-time fire-figh- Minister has the power to do so under current ters to use it in the line of duty. That is not legislation. I call on him or a spokesperson to acceptable and the system needs to be changed. commit to this before 8.30 p.m. because it is an Unfortunately, the senior Minister is not easy task. present. I appeal to those present to consider the 593 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 594 motion tabled by the Labour Party and, in a ges- The fire service in Ireland has undergone ture of solidarity, to accept it. immense change and development in recent years. The challenges that fire service personnel Minister of State at the Department of the face are changing on a daily basis, as are the dan- Taoiseach (Deputy Dick Roche): With the agree- gers with which they are presented in answering ment of the House, I propose to share time with those challenges. The fire services change man- Deputies Behan, Gogarty and Cuffe. There may agement programme 2005 introduced during my be a fourth Deputy with whom I will also be shar- tenure at the Department of the Environment, ing time later. Heritage and Local Government contains the I welcome the opportunity to address the roadmap setting out the approach to dealing with motion before the House. As a Member rep- these challenges and the dangers that accompany resenting the constituency of Wicklow and as a them. It focuses on four priority areas for action: resident of Bray, I can inform the House that the enhanced safety and welfare of fire fighters — I fatal fire on 26 September has had a devastating regard this as the top priority; community fire effect on the entire community of Bray and on safety — a previous speaker referred to the surrounding areas. I join other Members in again importance of the community fire service; a com- expressing my deepest sympathy to the families petency-based approach to recruitment and of Mark O’Shaughnessy and Brian Murray and to career progression; and the development of a the members of the fire service in County risk-based approach to emergency cover. The lat- Wicklow on the loss of their colleagues. ter was covered in great length in the contri- In the days following this terrible tragedy, I vis- butions of previous speakers. All four areas are ited the fire stations at Bray and Greystones to of vital and equal importance. get an understanding of the events that led to this The fire services change management prog- sad loss of life. When I spoke to fire service per- ramme finds its inspiration in the Farrell Grant sonnel, the depth of their loss, their courage and Sparks report. Progress is being achieved in the their dedication to the service and their com- four priority areas to which I refer. There has munity came through in equal measure. In been some comment on the Farrell Grant Sparks addition to the pain of their loss, I also detected report and its implementation. It is not true, as pain at some of the comments that were made has been suggested in some quarters, that nothing regarding the tragedy and the capacity of the has happened since the report was published. retained fire services. Action is under way on each of the four areas to Some media inquiries have been extraordi- which I refer. As Members are aware, the first narily insensitive. Deputy McManus indicated report on the implementation of the programme that she was asked to state whom she regarded as was published as recently as June of this year. being responsible. I commend her on the fact that The motion before the House calls for the she did not adopt that form of approach. Nor has the Deputy attempted to play politics with this establishment of a national authority for fire and matter. I received inquiries similar to those put to civil protection-emergency services. I fully accept Deputy McManus as to who should be blamed. the bona fides of those putting forward this call. My view is that this was an horrendous tragedy I suggest, however, that this is one area in respect and inquiries must be carried out and a report of which we need to pause and consider. Virtually issued with minimum delay. not a day goes by in the House without Members Nobody in Bray or Wicklow has any doubts raising questions regarding the wisdom of con- about the skill, dedication, courage or capacity of signing significant areas of public policy imple- retained fire service personnel. These individuals mentation to bodies outside the immediate con- are exemplary in every regard. In addition to trol of Ministers. Sometimes such bodies are recording again my sincere condolences to the appointed to speed up the execution of public Murray and O’Shaughnessy families and the fire policy, whereas at other times the approach is crews, I wish to acknowledge the service fire-figh- adopted in order to remove sensitive areas of ters in Bray and others throughout the country public policy from political interference. The provide in protecting the lives and property of HSE was established with the former objective in citizens. mind and An Bord Pleana´la was set up for the As one would expect, many questions have latter reason. arisen in the aftermath of this terrible tragedy. Members on all sides regularly criticise the out- Three investigations are under way and it is come of such assignment of responsibility to what imperative that these be concluded as soon as are commonly called “quangos”, a term I dislike. possible. No good will come from a protracted It is said that we already have 600 such bodies period of inquiry. There have been calls for a in this country. This represents a very significant fourth investigation, namely, an independent removal of public policy from democratic answer- inquiry. I have an open mind on this issue. If such ability. The first question we must ask in respect an examination would produce early results, it of this particular issue is whether it would be would be welcome. better to remove fire services and fire policy from 595 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 596

[Deputy Dick Roche.] into the area. This proposition did not win direct democratic control. I have my doubts in support. that regard. I resurrected this possible approach in 2001 The second point that arises regarding the but, again, it was rejected. On that occasion, the creation of yet another national authority relates idea did not find favour in either Du´ n Laoghaire- to resources and whether it would be better to Rathdown or Wicklow. At present, Wicklow establish such an authority or invest the available County Council has put a report on this matter funds in the fire service itself. My view remains out for public consultation. It will come, as is that all available funding should be channelled appropriate, before council members again in the directly into the fire service — for the purchase near future. They will then be faced with the of equipment and engines, providing training and question that their counterparts in other local developing community-based fire programmes — authorities have had to face regarding full-time rather than into establishing yet another agency. fire services. Unless we decide to change the basis The third and most pressing consideration at on which we organise the fire services and decide the time was to move from the talking stage to to opt for a full national service, the basic the implementation stage. Members are correct decision in respect of this matter will remain with that programmes and reports are often left lying local councils. around for years without any action being taken What happened in Bray two weeks ago was the in respect of them. If Government were, as a first most awful of events to befall a community, step, to become involved in institutional change, particularly one already bearing the scars of fire this would inevitably delay progress on imple- tragedies in the very recent past. The loss to the mentation in other key areas such as those relat- families involved is incalculable. No person in this ing to safety and welfare, the creation of a com- House can begin to put a measure on the price munity-based approach, the implementation of a those families have paid. There are questions that competency-based approach to recruitment and must be answered about the Bray tragedy. The career progression, and the development of a sooner the reports are underway and completed, risk-based approach to emergency cover. the better. The results of those inquiries and the This is not to say that creation of a national changes that are underway in the change manage- authority should be ruled out for all time. That is ment programme can then be factored into the certainly not the case. The decision made at the changes that must be introduced in the Wicklow time was that the energy and resources should fire services. When that happens, as was said last first be invested in the four key areas to which I night, hopefully, some good will come from this refer. Perhaps the most succinct expression of this awful tragedy. point is to be found in a constructive response from a SIPTU representative who appeared on a Deputy Joe Behan: I join with Members on all programme broadcast by East Coast Radio last sides of this House in expressing my sincere and week. The individual in question queried whether heartfelt sympathy to the families of Brian a group of ten or more people sitting around a Murray and Mark O’Shaughnessy on their table could really change anything. untimely and tragic deaths. It is clear that Brian The question of a full-time or retained service and Mark’s selfless courage in giving up their was also raised and I want to again commend lives in order to save others has struck a chord Deputy McManus for her measured comments on deep in the hearts of all people, whether they this matter. As the Minister, Deputy Gormley, knew the men or not, and the attendance of so stated and as Deputy Timmins acknowledged, a many people at their funerals spoke volumes for decision on this matter must be taken by the local the respect, gratitude and esteem in which these fire authority, Wicklow County Council. This has two brave fire-fighters were held. always been the case. I continue to support the I also agree wholeheartedly with the tributes concept of a full-time fire service for my home paid in this House to the members of the emer- town. What public representative would not do gency services in all their forms. The well-being so? While perusing my records yesterday in order of society and our national community depends to deal with a press query, I discovered that as on the dedication and commitment of these brave long ago as 1997, when I was a member of and good women and men and we can never Wicklow County Council, I submitted a proposal express our gratitude too often for their service calling for a comprehensive study of the costs and to us all. I acknowledge the presence in the Gal- benefits of a full-time service to be carried out. I lery of members of Brian and Mark’s families, suggested at the time that if it was not possible, their friends and colleagues in the fire services, as a result of a lack of resources, to provide a full- including Councillor John Byrne, who is a time service for Bray and north-east Wicklow, the member of Wicklow County Council, and possibility of providing a sub-regional service Margaret Cahill, whose sister and nephew died in should be considered whereby the service from another fire in Bray and who has led a long cam- Du´ n Laoghaire-Rathdown would be transferred paign to establish a full-time fire service in Bray. 597 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 598

It is, as has been said previously, extremely now complete. It has gone on public display and appropriate that the members of Daíl E´ ireann many local people and campaigners have contrib- debate the terrible tragedy which occurred in uted their views. The matter is now in the hands Bray on Wednesday, 26 September. We, as rep- of Wicklow County Council and I urge council- resentatives of the people, should reflect the lors and council officials alike to work together people’s views on this matter and should also for- to achieve that which we all wish to see achieved. mulate the appropriate response to this terrible An issue such as this should remain above event. In that regard, I welcome this opportunity party politics. I agree that Daíl E´ ireann should, if to express my views and acknowledge the spirit possible, unite on the essential principles we wish of the contributions made by Members on all to establish in response to the terrible tragedy in sides of the House, particularly my constituency Bray and, accordingly, I appeal to all Members of colleagues from the other parties. this House to unite and support the Government It is clear, having read the Opposition motion amendment. This is because it acknowledges the and the Government amendment, that what contribution made by Mark O’Shaughnessy and unites us is far greater than that which divides us. Brian Murray, indicates a willingness to We agree in our sincere expressions of sympathy implement necessary changes to the fire service to the bereaved families and colleagues of Brian on foot of the investigations into the fire and cor- Murray and Mark O’Shaughnessy. We agree in rectly acknowledges that the only organisation our acknowledgement of the courageous and which can establish a full-time fire service in Bray dedicated service of all members of the fire is Wicklow County Council. This is the correct service, both full-time and retained, which is response to the dreadful event of 26 September given to the public across the country. We also and I urge all Members to support it. Go raibh agree that a number of independent investi- maith agat. gations are necessary in order to inform us as to the likely cause or causes of the tragic fire on 26 Deputy Charlie O’Connor: What time is avail- September. I, for one, totally respect the indepen- able to me? dence of the Health and Safety Authority and the Garda Sıóchańa in this matter. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy has There may not be full and total agreement on just under five minutes. the extent to which the Farrell Grant Sparks report recommendations have been Deputy Charlie O’Connor: I will take slightly implemented, but I note the comments made by less than that because I know colleagues wish to Deputy Liz McManus on local radio this morning speak. I offer my sympathy and wish to be associ- when she acknowledged that at least some work ated with the expressions of sympathy which have has been done in implementing the recom- been made inside and outside the House in mendations. The Minister of State, Deputy respect of the sad deaths of Brian Murray and Roche, has outlined those here. The Minister for Mark O’Shaughnessy. the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- This is one of those occasions where those of ment, Deputy Gormley, in his speech to the us who do not know people who die in tragedies House the previous evening committed himself to are often deeply affected. I remember speaking reviewing progress achieved to date in this matter to Deputy McManus, if she does not mind me and, furthermore, to consider all aspects in reach- mentioning her, and telling her that I was struck ing his conclusions. by her interviews in the immediate aftermath of I put on the record of this House my unflinch- the tragedy and the manner in which it affected ing support for the provision of a full-time fire people. I think she reflected the fact that it service for the Bray area. I have attended the affected us all. aftermath of fires in Bray, too numerous to men- Since the tragedy, I was struck by the courage tion, in the past 20 years and, on these occasions, and attitude of the families who have had to gri- I have sympathised with families who have lost eve in public, which I have no doubt must be very loved ones in terrible circumstances. I have com- difficult, and yet have still focused on what they mitted myself to those families and I do so again see as the campaign for what is right. In that tonight. I will not rest until a full-time fire service sense, we must not only support them but do is established in Bray and its environs. The case what we can to facilitate the points of view they for such a service is compelling and conclusive are expressing. and the vast majority, if not all the people of I compliment Deputy Ciarań Lynch for his Bray, agree with me on this issue. efforts in this regard because this is a very In this regard, as Deputy McManus generously important debate and it is right that parliamen- acknowledged last night, when I was Cathaoir- tarians of all sides have an opportunity to pay leach of Wicklow County Council, I requested tribute, not only to the fallen fire persons but to that a feasibility study be drawn up by the council those in the fire services in Wicklow and through- to establish the framework under which a full- out the country. All of us should do that. All of time fire service could be provided. This study is us who go to our beds at night and get up in the 599 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 600

[Deputy Charlie O’Connor.] by him. I am not an expert in this area, but a morning feel safe because we know the emer- family member was involved in a tragedy in a gency services are there and their record around serious fire. the country is excellent. I would like the original report on fire services, In respect of the tragedy, I remember being completed five years ago, to be implemented struck by how terrible it must be for families to quicker than it has been. I welcome the publi- imagine people going to work as we all do every cation of an interim report in June 2007 and the morning, breaking off their normal work to do fact that phase 1 of the programme has been com- heroic public service and not coming home. I do pleted. This debate is necessary, not just in terms not live in Wicklow and did not know the men of paying respects, but also as a kick-start to a involved but, as a public representative, I want to sometimes slow bureaucracy. say how affected my community and I have been. There are some relevant issues pertaining to I notice that colleagues have made brief refer- the Dublin Mid-West constituency, particularly in ence to the situation in their own constituencies. the new town being developed in Adamstown I do not want to talk much about my constituency and Lucan, one of the fastest growing towns. but, like colleagues, I want to take the oppor- Despite this, Lucan does not have a fire station. tunity to record my appreciation for the emer- While a fire station was allocated to Adamstown, gency services in Dublin South-West and to put the local authority noted when An Bord Pleana´la on record that in this debate, it is right that we made its decision on the Adamstown project that all raise issues of concern to us with regard to there were no plans by Dublin Fire Brigade to the emergency services. I noticed last night that construct a new fire station there but it was pru- colleagues did that. dent to have one set aside. Given that it is the I have often made the point that there is only city authority rather than the local authority that one fire station located in my constituency of is in charge, I hope through this forum to put Dublin South-West. As the fire personnel in the pressure on the fire services and Dublin City Gallery know, there is only one fire station in Council on the need for a fire station in Lucan, South Dublin County Council’s administrative which has a population of over 36,000. Adams- area. The local fire station is located in Belgard town, when completed, will add an extra 25,000 which was upgraded to a two-pump station in people to population. With local traffic gridlock 2001. Fire services in my area are provided by the and road works on the M50, it is impossible for city council. This debate will continue but there the fire services to reasonably carry out its role are other issues relating to the fire services which from Blanchardstown or Tallaght fire stations. I hope in future weeks we will debate. We are lucky a major tragedy has not yet happened. Deputy Paul Gogarty: I join my fellow parlia- I raised the matter of the nearby part-time mentarians in offering my sincere condolences to service in Leixlip, which covers Lucan, but there the families of Brian Murray and Mark was a negative response from the fire service and O’Shaughnessy. At this time, we think of all other sources. I understand the logic of each local members of the fire services who have given their authority having its responsibility but at the same lives in carrying out their duties to the highest time common sense dictates that if there is a fire calibre. station nearby to an area not properly served by The efforts made by members of the fire one, it should be used until one is built. services are often underestimated, usually going Many fire stations, including Blanchardstown without recognition except when tragedy strikes. and Tallaght, do not have equipment that can The members of the fire service are there all the reach further than a seven-storey building. time, even carrying out extra duties. For example Adamstown’s proposed fire station will need in the Dublin Mid-West constituency, funding for equipment that can reach the proposed 13-storey a defibrillator was raised, largely through the idea buildings for the town project. of Deputy Billy Timmins. Of their own volition, members of the fire services will train volunteers Deputy Ciarań Cuffe: Two weeks ago when I in the use of the defibrillator. That is just one was in my office, I heard gasps of shock from next example of how they contribute to the door when my colleague, Senator Deírdre de community. Bu´ rca, heard the dark news from Little Bray. The I thank Deputy Ciarań Lynch and the Labour grief we felt can never match the loss of loved Party for the opportunity to speak on this motion. ones for a family. As a child growing up off Bally- It is a sombre time so I will not get into party man Lane, Shankill, I could hear the sirens from politics. I acknowledge the comments of the Mini- Bray when the fire services were called out. We ster, Deputy John Gormley, that it would be always paused to pray and think of those who vol- premature to do further work until the investi- untarily gave their time to help others. It is still gations under way are completed. The Minister the case in Bray that people voluntarily put their stated that any necessary changes arising from the lives at risk for others and sometimes lives are investigations would be examined and acted upon lost. 601 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 602

I agree with most of this Private Members’ has occurred. Perhaps it might be some conso- motion. We must examine a national authority to lation for them that here in the national Parlia- co-ordinate fire and civil protection. When I con- ment the tragedy is now being debated and the sider in my lifetime the expansion of Bray and issues raised by the firemen repeatedly before Shankill, growing from several hundred people to their death, and by their colleagues since and 20,000, the location of a full-time service in the before, are now being discussed by the Daíl. The area must be examined. The several inquiries tragedy therefore becomes a catalyst for good — under way must run their course. After this we and only good can come from our debating it can examine what has been left out. here. It is a very heavy price to pay for the caus- The fire station in Kill Avenue is five miles ation of a debate in the House. I repeatedly ask away from Bray. It is not far and we must exam- myself why we have to wait for a tragedy to move ine how best existing resources are being used. I on what people directly involved, such as the fire- do not believe county boundaries can be an men, constantly tell us is a requirement. absolute line in ensuring the right services are in I want to pay tribute to the existing fire service. the right place at the right time. In my constituency it is entirely a retained or From my previous occupation as an architect, I part-time service. There is a station in Newbridge, know much more can be done in fire safety for Naas, Athy, Maynooth, Monasterevin and buildings. The issuing of fire alarms has improved Leixlip. We have 56 part-time firemen and four in recent years but I am not convinced enough people, full-time, in charge. There were 1,774 has been done in ensuring compliance with build- calls last year. They cover a population of 186,000 ing regulations. We must revisit the issue of com- 60,000 homes, roughly. We have industrial compliance, a matter which I raised in the Twenty- plexes, a university, high rise buildings and the ninth Daíl. New and older buildings must be service is simply not capable of providing the inspected to ensure they reach a high level of coverage that is required on a part-time basis. fire protection. There is an absolute necessity to ensure we have A feasibility study has been undertaken for a full-time fire service, not just in Wicklow and County Wicklow but we must examine the neighbouring Kildare, but in the country gener- expanding areas of Dublin with a view to provid- ally. A consultants’ report has been before ing the same if not a higher level of fire services Government for a considerable time advocating than is being provided. that. Nothing can bring the two fire-fighters back. What we are proposing in the Daíl this evening There is an onerous responsibility on the should- is straightforward. We are proposing that Daíl ers of my colleague, the Minister for the Envir- Members support the call by their colleagues for onment, Heritage and Local Government, an independent investigation into the death of the Deputy John Gormley. We will look carefully at firefighters. The motion regrets the failure of the the issues raised in the motion before the House. Government to implement in full the recom- We all grieve for those who were lost. We have a mendations of the Farrell Grant Sparks review of huge responsibility that it is not an omission on fire safety and fire services in Ireland submitted our part to ensure the highest level of protection to the then Department of the Environment and for those who work full time and voluntarily in Local Government in January 2002. It calls for our fire service. the establishment of a national authority for fire and civil protection emergency services. That is Deputy Emmet Stagg: I wish to share time with one of the key recommendations of that review. Deputies Brian O’Shea, Willie Penrose, Jack It calls, as well, for the establishment of full-time Wall, Kathleen Lynch and Joanna Tuffy, with the fire services in areas of high population such as permission of the House. Bray. I thank our party leader, Deputy Eamon The Government, comprising Fianna Faíl, the Gilmore, and our spokesperson, Deputy Ciarań Green Party and the Progressive Democrats, is Lynch, for bringing this motion before the House. rejecting that call and proposing a meaningless The way a motion such as this comes before the collection of platitudes as an amendment. I House in Private Members’ time is that the party should not expect one word of that amendment debates what the most important issue of the time to be different if the Green Party was not in is. We have such an opportunity about every office. Deputy John Gormley, as the Green Party three weeks. On this occasion, Deputy Liz Minister responsible, might as well have been in McManus pressed on us the necessity and import- Opposition for all the effect he had on what is ance of having this matter debated in the House. before the House tonight. Let us examine what I want to thank Deputy McManus for ensuring the amendment contains to remind the House this issue received the priority it deserves, hence what is being suggested. The Government’s this debate tonight. essential bottom line is that arrangements for the I welcome the colleagues and families of the provision of fire services in all areas of the coun- fallen firemen. Along with others I want to try are a matter for the relevant fire authorities, express my sympathy to them on the tragedy that which expend an estimated \240 million per 603 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 604

[Deputy Emmet Stagg.] In December 2004 I tabled a Daíl question to annum. It is saying, in effect, that local authorities the new Minister for the Environment, Heritage must provide the fire service. This is not just a and Local Government, Deputy Dick Roche, ask- matter for local authorities, but a national issue ing him whether the proportion of the \1 million that requires a decision at national level. There set aside by his predecessor for setting up the must be funding provision at national level for national fire authority had been spent in 2004. He full-time fire services in the local authorities. informed me that other than the \19 million pro- Implementation at local level is a matter for local vided for fire service capital projects, no other authorities but decisions and funding are required money had been spent in 2004 on the implemen- from Government at national level. tation of the review. Also on that date, I asked when the Minister intended to set up the national Deputy Brian O’Shea: I, too, want to extend fire authority, but I got no direct answer to that my profound sympathy to the families and col- question. Again, when I asked the Minister in leagues of Mr. Brian Murray and Mr. Mark January 2007, about the proposals he had on set- O’Shaughnessy on the terrible tragedy that befell ting up the national fire authority, he replied that both those brave men, and to the members of the his priority under the fire services changed prog- full-time and retained fire service across the ramme was not to pursue further institutional country. change at this time, but to use available resources I compliment my colleague, the Labour Party to bring about direct improvements in these key leader, Deputy Eamon Gilmore as well as areas. Deputies Ciarań Lynch and Liz McManus for This is not a time for scoring political points, as bringing this most important Private Members’ other Members have pointed out. The Minister, motion before the Daíl. The motion is essentially Deputy Gormley, said last night that the estab- seeking two things, namely, the establishment of lishment of a national fire authority was con- a national fire authority and full-time fire services sidered prior to the launch of the changed prog- in areas of high population such as Bray. To a ramme and since the Bray tragedy has again been large extent these two issues are interlinked, but the subject of debate. There is a real need, I the national fire authority comes first because it believe, for a national fire authority. The Depart- will facilitate the effective development of the fire ment of the Environment, Heritage and Local services. As regards the establishment of the Government has the power in this area, but national authority, in his speech last night, the responsibility rests with the local authorities. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and local authorities are at all times in the front line Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, stated of fire services and any tragedies that may occur that there were a number of differing views on are disastrous. The Department also controls the the merits of a fire authority. It would have funding for all capital projects. I understand some helped the debate, I believe, had the Minister fire services still purchase secondhand vehicles, shared these differing views with the House, but which have had a full life in the UK as frontline effectively this major issue was side-stepped. The vehicles, just to keep their service operating. Minister of State, Deputy Tony Killeen did not mention the national fire service at all in his Deputy Willie Penrose: I compliment my col- speech. league, Deputy Ciarań Lynch, our party leader, The final Farrell Grant Sparks report, Review Deputy Gilmore, and Deputy McManus on of Fire Safety and Fire Services in Ireland, which tabling this important motion. Like the whole was issued in January 2002, contained a recom- population and all my fellow parliamentarians, I mendation on the setting up of a national fire was shocked and saddened to learn of the deaths authority. Just prior to the general election in of Brian Murray and Mark O’Shaughnessy who 2002, on 10 May, a letter issued on behalf of the died in the line of duty fighting a fire in Bray on Taoiseach stating: “Fianna Faíl believes that the 26 September last. Like everyone in the House, I report’s recommendations constitute a balanced join in the expressions of heartfelt and deepest package of measures, which must be sympathy to the families and colleagues of these implemented without cherrypicking.” In May brave men who lost their lives protecting others, 2004, the then Minister for the Environment, like ourselves, on that fateful day. At a minimum, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Martin we owe it to these men and others who have lost Cullen, stated his belief in the need for a national their lives to act now and, in particular, to focus fire authority that “provides leadership and direc- on the recommendations and, more particularly, tion and delivers an effective national response the central recommendation of the Farrell Grant which local authorities working on their own Sparks review of January 2002 which was the cannot bring about”. Deputy Cullen stated he establishment of a national fire authority. We would bring firm proposals to Cabinet seeking must stop foot dragging, putting forward excuses the establishment of a new national fire authority. and looking for more reports and analysis. We This authority would be the over-arching body must ensure an appropriate response is forth- for fire services in Ireland. coming. It should be formulated now. 605 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 606

I could not but be struck watching Mary We must acknowledge the invaluable and Murray, who I understand is in the Visitors Gal- essential role played by the retained fire service lery, on national television in the past week or so. and its role in fighting fires and protecting lives She gave an analysis, assessment and proposals in and property in their communities and further this regard which were to the point and profound. afield. I have seen at first hand their arrival at the If we took on board what she said — she was scene of accidents and how they often put their obviously acting on lots of information she gath- own lives at risk to protect and save our lives and ered from her late husband and his colleagues — the trauma with which they must deal. we would know how to tackle this problem. The thrust of the motion calls for the establish- There is no need for any further reports or analy- ment of a national fire authority. It would ensure sis in this regard. maximum co-ordination and a uniformity of I have seen at first hand the excellent emer- structure of training and service delivery through- gency services working on our behalf throughout out the country. If funding is required, let central this country and I salute them. We see their brav- Government step into the breach. As described ery, courage, dedication, commitment and dis- by my colleague, Deputy Ciara´n Lynch, a fire- cipline. I refer to the fire and rescue services in man’s job is one of duty which is underpinned by my constituency, in particular, in County West- the courage of going to work each day and having meath. Mullingar, Kilbeggan and Castlepollard to deal with and manage dangerous and life- are under the control of Westmeath County threatening situations. We must commend the Council while the Athlone fire service is under members of the full-time and retained fire service that of Athlone Town Council. The 50 personnel on their great work on behalf of us and the involved in these services have done tremendous wider community. work. There are 430 to 440 fire incidents each year in the Mullingar area. The same applies to Deputy Jack Wall: I, too, thank my colleagues, Athlone. There are approximately 200 or 300 Deputies Ciara´n Lynch, Gilmore and McManus, such incidents each year in the Castlepollard- for tabling this motion. It is an opportunity for us Kilbeggan areas. to speak on a very important matter but, unfortu- One of the issues that arises, and about which nately, the debate is tinged with great sadness due I have heard first hand from the firemen, is one to the deaths of two heroic firemen in Bray. Like Deputy Penrose, I was taken by Mrs. Murray’s which could be tackled tomorrow. There are no knowledge of the fire service and the need for standards or guidelines in respect of the extent of improvements and changes when she spoke on fire cover areas. For example, Mullingar fire almost all the news stations and some of the tele- station services Kinnegad and up to the vision stations. It was obvious that knowledge was eastbound carriageway close to Enfield. There not learned overnight but in conversation with has been a call by community groups and others her late husband in the Murray household over a for the provision of a new fire station in Kinnegad long time. It was amazing to hear this woman which, as most people know, has experienced a make a simple plea to the Government on what significant increase in population and which was wrong and what would rectify the situation. serves an ever-expanding hinterland. This reminds me of when I was 14 years of age, The Minister of State, Deputy Roche, made which was neither today nor yesterday, when some interesting and thought provoking points on something similar happened in regard to the the establishment of quangos. It is true the estab- ambulance service in Kildare. There was a very lishment of some quangos has diminished the role poor ambulance service at that time and there of this Parliament. However, the same argument was a tragedy in which three people were killed. cannot be made in regard to a national fire auth- Suddenly the Government, the local authority ority. Putting in place such an authority would and everyone was interested in it, which brought ensure uniformity of standards throughout the about a momentum to make changes. Unfortu- country and would eliminate the situation that nately, the same circumstances apply in this case. prevails in which there are rostered calls in some We regularly see this Government, which is in areas where the firemen involved are guaranteed its third term in office, create an authority to they will be on call as opposed to some other stymie debate in this House. This is another areas where such a rostered system is not instance in which it is using the same mechanism employed. but in a different format. It is saying the fire The establishment of a national fire authority service does not come under the remit of the has the full support of all the chief fire officers in Department of the Environment, Heritage and the country. Let us stop the foot dragging and Local Government but under that of local auth- procrastination. The Farrell Grant Sparks report orities and that we must fight for this in our own was commissioned and came forward with a cen- areas. That is where a big mistake is being made. tral recommendation. As I said, there is no need Once again the Government is using flippant for further reports or feasibility studies. Let us do words to prevent the establishment of a national what is right now. fire authority that would benefit communities 607 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 608

[Deputy Jack Wall.] to provide primary and secondary schools, they which need a fire service. It is time the Minister cannot have them? We would not because it stood up and was counted. This is another area would be outrageous and an act of lunacy, yet this in which Fianna Faíl has decided to protect fund- is what we are saying about the fire service, which ing. It does not want to increase funding to the is essential. fire service to provide a much needed service The last people we want to see at our doors are which will become even greater as we move the garda and fireman, but when we need them forward. and when they react on time with the equipment Demographics show that many towns and cities necessary to save our lives, they have our undying are overcrowded with cars and vehicles which gratitude. If we consider the fire service essential, creates a problem for retained fire-fighters. As as we ought to do, we cannot tell the people of Deputy Stagg rightly said, we are Bray they cannot have it because they cannot 8 o’clock very proud of that service in County afford it. The Government must deal with this Kildare because it has never let us issue. If it is a question of money, it must come down, but it is under constant pressure due to the up trumps. The days of telling people they cannot demographics of towns and villages. We are look- have a service because they cannot afford it are ing more and more towards a full-time service. In long gone and the comrades of the two fallen men many cases, the difference between life and death and their families will not stand by any longer is minutes. The same is the case with the ambul- and accept the existing service when they clearly ance service. Those vital first five or six minutes know it is only the endeavours of those involved make all the difference. The fire station is at the that have prevented tragedies in the past and will edge of my town and many of the retained fire- continue to do so in the future. We must step up fighters work in the town. It is difficult for them to the mark. to get through the town to the fire station and Inequality of access to services must be those minutes mean so much to so many. prevented. Women in the south have a greater Tonight represents a landmark for the Green chance of dying of cancer than anybody else Party. It is a landmark for Deputy Gormley, as because they do not have the same access to Minister, because it presents him with an oppor- services as women in the rest of the country. This tunity to say something needs to be done and that is not good enough for us and, in the context of his party will lead the charge and not allow the fire service, it is most definitely not good Fianna Faíl to decide against putting a national enough for the people of Bray or the rest of the authority in place. country. I call on the Government to recognise its Deputy Kathleen Lynch: I thank Deputy responsibility to ensure the health and safety of Ciarań Lynch, Deputy Liz McManus and the the people. If there are areas where the rate base Labour Party in general for affording me the is not sufficiently broad or strong to support opportunity to debate this issue, about which the essential services, the Government must step in entire country is talking. It goes without saying and provide the necessary funding. that we extend our sympathy to the families of Brian Murray and Mark O’Shaughnessy. A Deputy Joanna Tuffy: I, too, sympathise with tragedy such as that which befell these two fire- the Murray and O’Shaughnessy families. It is very fighters could happen to any one of our husbands, important that immediate action by the Govern- brothers or relations in the morning. ment be the outcome of this debate. The action Someone once said that if something is worth should be as outlined in the Labour Party motion doing, and if it is established in one’s head as the and include the implementation of the recom- right thing to do, it becomes easy. There were mendations of the Farrell Grant Sparks review. A gestures of sympathy from the Government side national fire authority and full-time fire services but sympathy will not take us very far on this should be established and there should be an issue. It is obvious from Mary Murray’s many independent investigation of the Bray fire interviews that she is a woman of incredible cour- tragedy. As Deputy Jack Wall stated, it is very age. Sympathy is well and good but she wants important that the existing momentum lead to action and to ensure that the firefighters in the change, beginning from now. Visitors Gallery will not be put in the same posi- The Farrell Grant Sparks review indicates that tion as their comrades who died. very impressive steps were taken by the consult- We must ask ourselves whether we consider a ants to ensure a broad and inclusive consultation fire service essential and the answer ought to be process in the lead-up to its publication. There “Yes”. Would we adopt the attitude to the fire were written submissions and e-mail feedback service in respect of the health service or the edu- and 40 stakeholders were contacted. Some 200 cation system? Would we tell the people in Bray representative groups were invited to meetings of that because their rate base is not big enough to seven regional fora, and there were in excess of provide for a health service, they cannot have 160 meetings and consultations. The model of one? Would we tell them that because there is consultation was very good and must have led to not enough money in the town and its environs great expectations among those involved. 609 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 610

However, it must be very disillusioning for them Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: In this case, the rel- to realise the recommendations of the report evant authority is Wicklow County Council. have not been implemented five years after its publication. Deputy Emmet Stagg: The Minister of State is The most important point of the report was the blaming the council. call for a national fire authority. Let me address points Deputies made in this regard and the refer- Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: The fire authority is ence to a quango. I was involved in local govern- required under section 10 of the Fire Services Act ment and very protective of its powers. The 1981 to make provision for the delivery of fire national fire authority would centralise functions services in its functional area, including the estab- that are currently dispersed, including those of lishment and maintenance of a fire brigade the local fire safety authorities and the Depart- service, and to make adequate provision for the ment of the Environment, Heritage and Local reception of, and response to, calls for the assist- Government. It would very much retain the ance of that service. The Minister does not have national and local government functions. The any discretion in the matter. idea behind the national fire authority is to inform local authorities about their functions. Deputy Emmet Stagg: Perhaps he should Local authorities do not have the national stan- resign altogether. dards required to ensure they carry out their role properly. Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: The Minister and the The key recommendation of the report was Department of the Environment, Heritage and that the authority be set up. Page 93 recommends Local Government must have regard—— that the authority be announced and brought into being immediately, given the acceptance of the Deputy Emmet Stagg: What are the Ministers recommendations by the Minister. I urge the opposite doing? immediate implementation of the recommendations, including the establishment of the Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: ——to the provisions of national fire authority. the 1981 Act which, after all, was passed into law by the Daíl. Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government Deputy Emmet Stagg: Is there not a majority (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): On behalf of the on that side of the House? Government, I acknowledge the presence of the families and friends of Brian Murray and Mark Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I remind the Members O’Shaughnessy, who have been with us for the of the House who have referred to risk assess- past two nights. I extend my condolences to all those connected to the two men, including ment that a risk-based approach to fire cover members of the fire service in Bray. standards is one of the projects being advanced I thank all the Deputies who contributed to this under the fire services change programme. When debate and commend them on their measured that project has been completed, it will help the approach thereto. Many points have been made fire authorities to carry out a risk analysis in their by them on the provision of a fire service. The functional areas when determining the cover and House is agreed that the fire services provide a resources which are needed. I can assure the great public service. The retained fire service is Opposition Deputies who have been calling for a highly trained, well-equipped and professional an independent investigation into the Bray service. Together with the full-time service per- tragedy that three investigations, being under- sonnel, the personnel in the retained service serve taken by the Garda Sıóchańa, the Health and their communities in every part of this country Safety Authority and Wicklow County Council, with the utmost dedication. I express the Govern- are under way. The Minister, Deputy Gormley, ment’s gratitude to all of them tonight. has asked the three authorities to make the find- I wish to address several issues raised in the ings of their investigations available to the debate. I reiterate what the Minister said last Department. He has stated categorically that he night on the provision of a full-time fire service will consider any lessons learned from the out- in Bray and elsewhere in the country. Some comes of those investigations as he works to sup- Deputies suggested the Government was in some port and develop fire services in his role as Mini- way ignoring this issue by passing responsibility ster. He is awaiting the outcome of the for decisions on the type of service provided investigations. A number of Deputies suggested locally to local fire authorities. The fact is that the during the course of this debate that successive provision of a fire service is the statutory Governments have not adhered to or responsibility of the relevant local fire authority. implemented the recommendations of the report of the tribunal of inquiry into the 1981 Stardust Deputy Emmet Stagg: If the Government gave fire and the 2002 Farrell Grant Sparks review of the authority the money—— fire safety and services. 611 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 612

Deputy Ciara´n Lynch: The primary objectives An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is that agreed? of those reports have been ignored. Agreed.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: Such suggestions are Deputy Eamon Gilmore: I thank Deputies not accurate. All of the recommendations made Lynch and McManus for the comprehensive in the Stardust report received full and careful argument they made last night in support of the consideration and were either implemented or Labour Party motion. As someone who lives in taken into account as fire safety policy was for- Shankill, just two miles from Bray, I have close mulated and local authority fire services were connections with the community in that town. developed in the intervening period. Very signifi- Therefore, I understand the real sense of shock cant improvements have been made in all areas that was felt in Bray and throughout the country of the fire service. Investment has been made in at the untimely and tragic deaths of Brian Murray infrastructure, equipment, more staff, better and Mark O’Shaughnessy while fighting a fire at training, improved communications and in legis- a disused factory in the town two weeks ago. Hav- lation. Most of the recommendations made in the ing spent many years as a trade union official rep- Farrell Grant Sparks review have been resenting full-time and retained firefighters, I implemented. appreciate the work that is done by firefighters. Last night, the Minister, Deputy Gormley, and I hope the families of Brian Murray and Mark the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, outlined O’Shaughnessy will take some consolation from the significant progress being made in each of the the genuinely warm tributes which were paid to four areas being advanced under the fire services both men during this debate over the past two change programme, which has been put in place nights. While there may be differences in opinion by the Government to implement the key fire among the various parties in the House about safety and fire services recommendations of how to deal with the broader organisational Farrell Grant Sparks. The progress report that issues which have been raised by the two deaths, was prepared after phase 1 of the programme was every Deputy from every party acknowledges the published by the Department of the Envir- heroism of the two men and the absolute dedi- onment, Heritage and Local Government last cation to duty they displayed, not just in June and can be downloaded from the Depart- responding to this fire but also to the many other ment’s website. fires and incidents they were called to deal with The change programme needs to be considered during their service with Bray fire brigade. in conjunction with the strengthened fire safety Death is always tragic, but if there can ever be legislation of 2003. The major emergency nobility in death, it is when people lay down their development programme, which was approved by lives to save others. Thankfully, the loss of fire the Government on foot of the review of the brigade personnel while fighting fires has been a framework for major emergency management, relatively rare phenomenon in this country. was commissioned in late 2004. The success of the Reliance on the fire brigade to deal with a simple capital investment programme has seen fire chimney fire or to cope with the aftermath of a services infrastructure, including fire stations, fire serious accident is something we take for granted. appliance fleet, fire station equipment, communi- Our society could not function without knowing cations and mobilisation facilities, brought on a there are brave men and women at the other end par with the best international standards. The of a telephone who will respond at a moment’s management structure in local authority fire notice and come to our rescue. As Deputy services has also been strengthened. It is clear Kathleen Lynch said earlier, the fire service is an that many of the essential elements for the pro- essential service. vision of an effective and modern fire emergency This is not the first time we have had a shock- service are in place. The Government believes ing fire tragedy in this country. A fire at the that such important services, which are aimed at Noyeks showrooms in Parnell Street in Dublin in securing the safety of the public, can benefit from March 1972 killed eight people. The largely for- an continuing focus on appropriate modernis- gotten fire at the Central Hotel in Bundoran in ation initiatives. The Government is committed August 1980 killed ten people, including five chil- to the process of change. The Minister, Deputy dren. Worst of all, and seared on the collective Gormley, said last night that he will consider all memory of anyone who lived through that period, options before he reaches any conclusions on the was the shocking Stardust disaster that took the next phase of the change programme. The lives of 49 young people on St. Valentine’s night Government will continue to bring about real and 1981. While we would have had many more such substantive change so the fire service continues disasters were it not for the courage and commit- to be in line with international standards. ment of members of the fire service, each of the fires I have mentioned raised questions about the Deputy Eamon Gilmore: I wish to share time adequacy of our fire service. In each case, there with Deputy Ciara´n Lynch, who proposed the were reviews, reports and recommendations, original motion. many of which were never implemented. 613 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 614

The Noyeks fire was followed by the establish- delivers an effective national response that ment of a working party by the then Minister for local authorities working on their own cannot Local Government. Large parts of the working bring about. It is against this back drop that I party’s report, which was published in 1975, were will bring to Cabinet firm proposals to seek the never implemented. The Government established establishment of a national fire authority. The a formal tribunal of inquiry following the Stardust authority will be the over-arching body for fire fire. While the tribunal did not reach any con- services in Ireland. clusions about the origin of the fire that satisfied Those proposals were never brought to Cabinet the relatives of those who died, Mr. Justice Keane or if they were, they were never acted upon and produced a number of recommendations that three years later, we have Ministers from that were not implemented. One of the key recom- same Department now making the very opposite mendations was that an inspectorate be estab- case. lished to oversee the fire service, but no such inspectorate exists, 26 years after the Stardust We must accept the need for fundamental tragedy. change and reform in the fire service. We must accept that a structure which evolved when The next major step in efforts to improve the Ireland was a very different country, largely agri- fire service and learn from the lessons of past dis- cultural, with relatively small numbers living in asters was the decision in 2001 to ask a con- towns and cities, can no longer provide us with sultancy firm, Farrell Grant Sparks, to produce a the level of safety and protection we need. We report on this country’s fire services. The report must end the situation where, as one chief fire promptly produced by the firm, Review of Fire officer has put it, the Department of the Envir- Safety and Fire Services in Ireland, was submitted onment, Heritage and Local Government, has all to the Department of the Environment and Local the power without any of the responsibility. It can Government in January 2002. It was not until effectively walk away from any disaster and lay February 2005, however, that the Minister for the the blame at the doors of the local authority. We Environment, Heritage and Local Government now urgently need a national fire authority that announced the initiation of the fire services would provide enhanced protection against fire, change programme, which was supposed to better training and equipment for all personnel implement the Farrell Grant Sparks recom- and ensure a consistent level of service across the mendations. The Government refused to country. We also need to accept that densely implement the key recommendation of that populated areas can no longer rely on part-time report — the proposal to establish a national fire or retained fires services to provide the level of authority — despite a commitment given during protection required. This is not in any way to the 2002 general election campaign by the question the dedication or commitment of the Taoiseach’s programme manager that it would do part-time fire fighters who staff the retained fire so. In a letter to which Deputy Brian O’Shea has service. On the contrary, Brian Murray and Mark already referred, sent on 10 May 2002 to the sec- O’Shaughnessy and the other members of the retary of the chief fire officers’ association, the retained fire service, showed exceptional commit- Taoiseach’s programme manager said: ment by ensuring that they were available, often Fianna Fa´il believes that the report’s recom- 24 hours a day, seven days a week, to drop every- mendations constitute a balanced package of thing at a phone call and head off to fight a fire. measures which must be implemented without This they did, for what most of us would regard cherry-picking. Fianna Fa´il is committed to this as a pittance by way of monetary return. course of action. In a modern society, speed of reaction is crucial to a fire alert. The time it takes for a brigade to The Minister of State, Deputy Dick Roche and reach a fire can literally mean the difference Deputy Behan, as well as the Minister of State, between life and death. The extra time of ten or Deputy Batt O’Keeffe, have again suggested that 15 minutes it can take for part-time fire fighters of course this is a responsibility for the local auth- to mobilise means simply that a retained fire orities. The point is that the establishment of a service cannot respond with the same speed as a full-time fire service for major centres such as full-time service. There is always a role for the Bray is inextricably bound up with the need to retained service in support of the full-time establish a national fire authority because at the service. end of the day, this comes down to a question of resources. In a little more than five minutes this House will make a decision on the motion. The decision I cannot put it more eloquently than the way of this House as a result of the vote, is a vote in which the former Minister, Deputy Martin on a motion that calls for action or a vote for a Cullen, put it on 5 May 2004, when he travelled Government amendment that is about inaction, to Wexford and addressed the annual conference that is about more reports, that is about noting of the chief fire officers’ association. I quote from more progresses and more reviews and so on. The his script: Labour Party motion which is before the House I believe in the need for a national fire auth- tonight calls for two things — first, the establish- ority that provides leadership and direction and ment of a national fire authority and, second, the 615 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 616

[Deputy Eamon Gilmore.] retained fire services, many structural and day-to- establishment of full-time services in large areas day difficulties hinder them in carrying out their of population such as Bray. We are calling for duties to the best of their ability. this because we do not want a repeat of what has I refer to the two key aspects of this debate. happened in Bray and what has happened many Should there be an independent inquiry into the times before. We want to see the best possible deaths of sub-officer Brian Murray and firefighter fire service in this country to protect our people Mark O’Shaughnessy? Is there a need to establish and to provide the highest level of safety for a national authority for fire and civil protection those who work in it. There is no excuse for post- services? The answer is yes. Both those questions ponement. are inextricably linked to one another. If an inde- We are calling for no more tonight than what pendent investigation of the Bray tragedy were to was contained in an official Government report, be carried out in the morning, it would show not once, but three times in the past two decades. there is a need for a national fire authority. Each of those reports was produced as a result of I refer to the comments of the Minister of fire tragedies. We are calling for no more tonight State, Deputy Batt O’Keeffe. The model of risk than what the former Minister for the Envir- assessment proposed by the Minister of State is onment, Heritage and Local Government himself risk assessment contained within the local auth- said he would do three years ago, namely, estab- ority boundary areas. A national fire authority lish a national fire authority. The Government would conduct risk assessment on a nation-wide can shift the responsibility as often as it likes to basis and, as a result, the Du´ n Laoghaire fire brig- the individual local authorities and the Minister ade would have been in Bray because the local of State can wash his hands of it as often as he boundary would not have been a division. likes by saying that the Government and the The national fire authority would provide a Department have no responsibility as this is a uniformity of structure, a uniformity of training statutory function of the local authorities. The and a uniformity of standards and what is most reality is that given the way in which local auth- important, a uniformity of service delivery across orities are financed and the resources that are the country. required to ensure that we have high quality fire The Minister, Deputy Gormley’s response to services, local authorities will not be able to the motion, shows that he is unsure as to how to establish full-time services in the areas in which proceed and he demonstrated his uncertainty by they are required. As regards the two require- his contribution to the debate. The Government ments of a national fire authority and full-time amendment to the Labour Party motion demon- services in the areas of large population concen- strates no conviction, no direction and no politi- tration, this House has an opportunity tonight to cal originality. It is simply an attempt to mirror make a decision to establish a national fire auth- what happened during the tenure of the former ority and to have full-time fire services in areas Minister, Deputy Roche’s, term in office when it like Bray or to funk it once again, as was done is clear he changed the direction of how fire after every major fire tragedy that has occurred strategy was to be developed. His predecessors in in this country. both Deputy Cullen and Deputy Dempsey, had a clear idea to implement in full the key recom- Deputy Ciara´n Lynch: In closing the debate mendations and not the cherrypicked recom- this evening I refer to the opening remarks made mendations referred to by the Minister of State, last night that there was a narrative leading up to Deputy Batt O’Keeffe. The key recommendation the events of 26 September this year which goes of the establishment of a national fire authority right back to the Stardust disaster of 1981. As I was removed from the agenda. It was unfortunate said last night, an unfortunate and recurrent to hear the Minister, Deputy Gormley, say that theme of that narrative is one in which the State tonight. has failed to strategically respond to these tragic This motion is an opportunity for the House situations and has instead become crisis-driven at to rise above the standard responses involved in best and has consistently failed to act upon its Government and Opposition debate. It is also an own recommendations, namely the Farrell Grant opportunity to demonstrate that the tragic events Sparks report and the Stardust tribunal report. of 26 September in Bray have begun to set in Over the course of the debate, the House heard motion the creation of the fire service that many accounts of how the fire service carries out Ireland needs. Most importantly, it is an oppor- its duties across the country and I thank all those tunity to put in place the type of fire authority who contributed to the debate. In reviewing this the brave personnel of our fire services deserve commentary, it is clear that despite the excep- and our society requires. tional job being done by both the full-time and Amendment put. 617 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 618

The Da´il divided: Ta´, 81; Nı´l, 70.

Ta´

Ahern, Dermot. Kelleher, Billy. Ahern, Michael. Kelly, Peter. Ahern, Noel. Kenneally, Brendan. Andrews, Barry. Kennedy, Michael. Andrews, Chris. Killeen, Tony. Ardagh, Seań. Kirk, Seamus. Aylward, Bobby. Kitt, Michael P. Behan, Joe. Kitt, Tom. Blaney, Niall. Lenihan, Brian. Brady, A´ ine. Lenihan, Conor. Brady, Cyprian. Lowry, Michael. Brady, Johnny. Mansergh, Martin. Brennan, Seámus. McDaid, James. Browne, John. McEllistrim, Thomas. Byrne, Thomas. McGrath, Finian. Calleary, Dara. McGrath, Mattie. Carey, Pat. McGrath, Michael. Collins, Niall. McGuinness, John. Connick, Seań. Moynihan, Michael. Coughlan, Mary. Mulcahy, Michael. Cowen, Brian. Nolan, M.J. Cregan, John. O´ Cuı´v, E´ amon. Cuffe, Ciarań. O´ Fearghaı´l, Seań. Cullen, Martin. O’Brien, Darragh. Curran, John. O’Connor, Charlie. Dempsey, Noel. O’Flynn, Noel. Devins, Jimmy. O’Hanlon, Rory. Dooley, Timmy. O’Keeffe, Batt. Fahey, Frank. O’Rourke, Mary. Finneran, Michael. O’Sullivan, Christy. Fleming, Seań. Power, Peter. Flynn, Beverley. Power, Seań. Gallagher, Pat The Cope. Roche, Dick. Gogarty, Paul. Ryan, Eamon. Gormley, John. Sargent, Trevor. Grealish, Noel. Smith, Brendan. Hanafin, Mary. Treacy, Noel. Harney, Mary. Wallace, Mary. Haughey, Seań. White, Mary Alexandra. Healy-Rae, Jackie. Woods, Michael. Hoctor, Maíre.

Nı´l

Allen, Bernard. Hayes, Brian. Bannon, James. Higgins, Michael D. Barrett, Seań. Howlin, Brendan. Breen, Pat. Kenny, Enda. Broughan, Thomas P. Lynch, Ciarań. Burke, Ulick. Lynch, Kathleen. Burton, Joan. McCormack, Pa´draic. Byrne, Catherine. McEntee, Shane. Carey, Joe. McGinley, Dinny. Clune, Deirdre. McHugh, Joe. Connaughton, Paul. McManus, Liz. Coonan, Noel J. Mitchell, Olivia. Costello, Joe. Morgan, Arthur. Coveney, Simon. Naughten, Denis. Crawford, Seymour. Neville, Dan. Creed, Michael. Noonan, Michael. Creighton, Lucinda. O´ Caolaín, Caoimhghıń. D’Arcy, Michael. O´ Snodaigh, Aengus. Deasy, John. O’Donnell, Kieran. Doyle, Andrew. O’Dowd, Fergus. Durkan, Bernard J. O’Keeffe, Jim. English, Damien. O’Mahony, John. Enright, Olwyn. O’Shea, Brian. Feighan, Frank. O’Sullivan, Jan. Ferris, Martin. Penrose, Willie. Flanagan, Charles. Perry, John. Flanagan, Terence. Rabbitte, Pat. Gilmore, Eamon. Reilly, James. Gregory, Tony. Ring, Michael. 619 Fire Services: 10 October 2007. Motion (Resumed) 620

Nı´l—continued

Shatter, Alan. Stanton, David. Sheahan, Tom. Timmins, Billy. Sheehan, P.J. Tuffy, Joanna. Sherlock, Sea´n. Upton, Mary. Shortall, Ro´ isı´n. Varadkar, Leo. Stagg, Emmet. Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Ta´, Deputies Tom Kitt and John Curran; Nı´l, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Dan Neville.

Amendment declared carried. the contempt with which the Government has dealt with it, I propose that the vote be taken Question put: “That the motion, as amended, other than by electronic means. be agreed to.” The Da´il divided by electronic means. An Ceann Comhairle: The vote will proceed. Deputy Emmet Stagg: As a teller in the last Question again put: “That the motion, as count and given the importance of the issue and amended, be agreed to.”

The Da´il divided: Ta´, 80; Nı´l, 70.

Ta´

Ahern, Dermot. Kelleher, Billy. Ahern, Michael. Kelly, Peter. Ahern, Noel. Kenneally, Brendan. Andrews, Barry. Kennedy, Michael. Andrews, Chris. Killeen, Tony. Ardagh, Seań. Kirk, Seamus. Aylward, Bobby. Kitt, Michael P. Behan, Joe. Kitt, Tom. Blaney, Niall. Lenihan, Brian. Brady, A´ ine. Lenihan, Conor. Brady, Cyprian. Lowry, Michael. Brady, Johnny. Mansergh, Martin. Brennan, Seámus. McDaid, James. Browne, John. McEllistrim, Thomas. Byrne, Thomas. McGrath, Finian. Calleary, Dara. McGrath, Mattie. Carey, Pat. McGrath, Michael. Collins, Niall. McGuinness, John. Connick, Seań. Moynihan, Michael. Coughlan, Mary. Mulcahy, Michael. Cowen, Brian. Nolan, M. J. Cregan, John. O´ Cuı´v, E´ amon. Cuffe, Ciarań. O´ Fearghaı´l, Seań. Cullen, Martin. O’Brien, Darragh. Curran, John. O’Connor, Charlie. Dempsey, Noel. O’Flynn, Noel. Devins, Jimmy. O’Hanlon, Rory. Dooley, Timmy. O’Keeffe, Batt. Finneran, Michael. O’Rourke, Mary. Fleming, Seań. O’Sullivan, Christy. Flynn, Beverley. Power, Peter. Gallagher, Pat The Cope. Power, Seań. Gogarty, Paul. Roche, Dick. Gormley, John. Ryan, Eamon. Grealish, Noel. Sargent, Trevor. Hanafin, Mary. Smith, Brendan. Harney, Mary. Treacy, Noel. Haughey, Seań. Wallace, Mary. Healy-Rae, Jackie. White, Mary Alexandra. Hoctor, Maíre. Woods, Michael.

Nı´l

Allen, Bernard. Breen, Pat. Bannon, James. Broughan, Thomas P. Barrett, Sea´n. Burke, Ulick. 621 Hospital 10 October 2007. Services 622

Nı´l—continued

Burton, Joan. McHugh, Joe. Byrne, Catherine. McManus, Liz. Carey, Joe. Mitchell, Olivia. Clune, Deirdre. Morgan, Arthur. Connaughton, Paul. Naughten, Denis. Coonan, Noel J. Neville, Dan. Costello, Joe. Noonan, Michael. Coveney, Simon. O´ Caolaín, Caoimhghıń. Crawford, Seymour. O´ Snodaigh, Aengus. Creed, Michael. O’Donnell, Kieran. Creighton, Lucinda. O’Dowd, Fergus. D’Arcy, Michael. O’Keeffe, Jim. Deasy, John. O’Mahony, John. Doyle, Andrew. O’Shea, Brian. Durkan, Bernard J. O’Sullivan, Jan. English, Damien. Penrose, Willie. Enright, Olwyn. Perry, John. Feighan, Frank. Rabbitte, Pat. Ferris, Martin. Reilly, James. Flanagan, Charles. Ring, Michael. Flanagan, Terence. Shatter, Alan. Gilmore, Eamon. Sheahan, Tom. Gregory, Tony. Sheehan, P. J. Hayes, Brian. Sherlock, Seań. Hayes, Tom. Shortall, Ro´ isıń. Higgins, Michael D. Stagg, Emmet. Howlin, Brendan. Stanton, David. Kenny, Enda. Timmins, Billy. Lynch, Ciarań. Tuffy, Joanna. Lynch, Kathleen. Upton, Mary. McCormack, Pa´draic. Varadkar, Leo. McGinley, Dinny. Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Ta´, Deputies Tom Kitt and John Curran; Nı´l, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Dan Neville.

Question declared carried. disciplinary care and it makes sense. It is line with international best practice and it has been proven Adjournment Debate. that patients have a 20% higher chance of survival if they are treated in specialist centres. Pati- ———— ent survival is the objective of health care strategy and I therefore welcome the initiative. Hospital Services. Members of the board of St. Luke’s Hospital have also fully committed to supporting this Deputy Chris Andrews: A Cheann Comhairle, decision. They recognise that it is in line with I thank you for the opportunity to speak on an international best practice and is designed to issue of great importance both for the implemen- ensure optimal outcomes for patients. They are tation of the national health strategy and for the fully behind it. They have also ensured that the provision of health care services in the constitu- expertise and ethos of St. Luke’s will be at the ency of Dublin South-East. First, I would like to heart of the new arrangement in St. James’s focus on the facilities provided in St. Luke’s Hospital. Hospital in Rathgar. As residents and patients However, two major points need further con- alike know, plans have been under way since July sideration in this debate. First, there is a chronic 2005 to transfer the oncology services of St. shortage of step-down facilities in Dublin South- Luke’s Hospital to a centre of excellence in St. East and second, the site of St. Luke’s is a unique James’s Hospital. This decision was taken by the place for respite and palliative care. It provides a Minister based on the report, The Development calm and tranquil setting in which to recuperate of Radiation Oncology Services in Ireland. and undergo serious health treatment. This The decision was designed to ensure that radi- should not be ignored. Anybody who has been ation oncology is integrated with all other aspects there will know there is a special quality about of cancer care including surgery and medical St. Luke’s. oncology. What this means in plain 9 o’clock language is that cancer patients will Deputy Seymour Crawford: Exactly. receive all the treatment they need under the one roof, experts will be available in Deputy Chris Andrews: While we can sit in the one location, and all available technology and offices and work in laboratories and come up with services will be on site. It is known as multi- the best ways to implement policy and assign 623 Pig 10 October 2007. Industry 624

[Deputy Chris Andrews.] of \255 million has been allocated for services for treatment centres, we must also acknowledge the older people. This gives a total of more than \400 human aspect and the more subtle qualities of million added to services for older people over such a place. We must respect that there is a tra- two years. Government policy on older people is dition of palliative care on this site and that enor- to support people to live in dignity and indepen- mous work has been done through the years by dence in their own homes and communities for as people who wish to continue providing care on long as possible and, where this is not possible, this site. There has been investment in new radio- to support access to quality long-term residential therapy treatment units or linear accelerators care. This policy approach is renewed and which will increase the treatment capacity of the developed in the latest partnership agreement, hospital by up to 25%. It may seem odd that new Towards 2016. services are being provided in a centre whose While the main emphasis will continue to be cancer services are to be transferred. However, on providing supports that help older people to the reason for this is to ensure the quality of remain in their own home for as long as possible, service to cancer patients during the years that it additional long-stay residential places will be will take to complete the transfer. I welcome the required in the coming years to meet the needs investment of almost \13 million in coming years, of an ageing population. Last year, the HSE, in which shows a commitment to cancer care and conjunction with Prospectus, undertook a needs shows foresight. assessment of bed capacity requirements in the I understand no decisions have been made areas of long-stay, dementia specific and respite regarding the future of the St. Luke’s site. care beds. This report was submitted to the However, this is simply not good enough. Resi- Department of Health and Children in dents, patients and doctors cannot hang in the September 2006. While the report indicates a balance without knowing their fate. They deserve small national surplus of long-stay beds, it also assurance that this site with its long tradition of notes that this surplus masks the uneven distri- providing health care will remain in the hands of bution of beds between and within regions. In the HSE and will become a step-down facility particular, HSE Dublin north east and HSE south that will continue to serve the community. If have an immediate requirement for additional people like Kay Bradbury and the many com- beds. munity groups had not fought the case for the As part of the overall investment package for Meath Hospital, it would not be the successful the development of services for older people, the health facility it is today. Department and the HSE have prioritised the The Minister recently said that St Luke’s delivery of additional public continuing care beds Hospital would be used in the best interests of the through the development of community nursing health services. The Minister must make a clear units in large urban centres in both Dublin and statement that this hospital will not be sold to Cork together with the expansion and the private developers. I urge the Minister not to development of additional facilities across all engage in any coyness and end the uncertainty by regions. The Department is in discussions with confirming that the St. Luke’s site will provide the HSE regarding the delivery of this additional step down facilities which are chronically needed. capacity. I understand the HSE has plans to I do not want to be fobbed off with an ambigu- provide additional step down-long stay facilities ous answer. in the south Dublin area. Locations are being identified in the context of the 2008 capital plan. Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: Hear, hear. The transfer of services from St. Luke’s Hospital to new facilities at St. James’s Hospital Deputy Chris Andrews: I support the transfer is not due to take place for a number of years. In of cancer services. There is a chronic shortage of the meantime, two additional linear accelerators step down facilities in south Dublin. We need to will be commissioned at St. Luke’s in early 2008 plan for the future. We need to end uncertainty and two replacement linear accelerators will be over St. Luke’s and not leave it go on for years. commissioned later in 2008. These will provide much needed interim capacity pending the roll- Minister of State at the Department of Health out of the national plan for radiation oncology. and Children (Deputy Ma´ire Hoctor): Iam No decisions have been taken on the future use speaking on behalf of the Minister, Deputy of the site and facilities at St. Luke’s. However, Harney, who is unavailable. I thank the Deputy the Minister intends to ensure these resources are for raising this issue, which provides an oppor- utilised in the best interest of the health services. tunity to reaffirm the Government’s commitment to services for older people. The development of such services is a high priority. This is reflected Pig Industry. in the funding committed to services for older people in the 2006 and 2007 budgets. In 2006, the Deputy Michael Creed: I wish to share time Government funded the largest ever expansion in with Deputy Seymour Crawford. services for older people with a full year cost of I thank the Ceann Comhairle’s office for the \150 million. In budget 2007, a full year package opportunity to raise this matter. There was rightly 625 Pig 10 October 2007. Industry 626 a great deal of concern over the past week about aware of the problem and the Department of the loss of 2,000 jobs at Amgen in Cork. Health and Children must address the labelling However, this debate relates to a national indus- issue is not providing a sufficient response to an try employing 7,000 people, which is worth industry facing a crisis and job losses. approximately \450 million to the economy. It is not an option for these producers to relocate to Deputy Seymour Crawford: I thank my col- Asia, eastern Europe or elsewhere. These jobs league for sharing time to debate this vital issue are rooted in our economy and the people for pig and poultry farmers in Cavan-Monaghan involved are crying out for help in a time of crisis. who are among the largest producers in the coun- There is a view that the pig market is cyclical and try. They are a dying breed and they are under the latest trend is but another cycle. However, the severe pressure. They came under major pressure Cathaoirleach will appreciate, as he comes from because of the nitrates directive and they were a rural constituency, that only 500 pig producers promised issues that arose would be addressed. remain in the State and many are refusing to However, that did not happen and the smaller service breeding stock because they envisage no producers were forced out of business. Those future for the industry. Slaughter weights are remaining in the industry are crying out for help reducing in abattoirs to 95 kg. These trends indi- to make sure clarification is provided on the right cate a serious crisis in this industry and if action of producers to import feeds from wherever they is not taken by the Minister shortly, it will not be can be obtained and to ensure they are not tied around for much longer. down by regulations that put them at a disadvan- I raised this issue by way of parliamentary tage to their competitors. Pig meat and poultry question on today’s Order Paper and I am meat is being imported without labels and is appalled and alarmed by the Minister’s response. being sold as Irish produce. There is no excuse She stated: “I am aware of the issues... I appreci- for that. I have raised this issue on many ate the argument for pig meat prices but I do not occasions, as has the Cathaoirleach, and it is time get involved... The issue of labelling is one for the action was taken. This is a job for the Govern- Department of Health and Children... Bord Bia ment and not an individual Minister so that the will undertake a promotional campaign to livelihoods of producers and workers in this increase consumption.” This is a case of Pontius indigenous industry are preserved. Pilate washing their hands of the issue. If her Department had been more proactive in making Minister of State at the Department of Agri- Herculex grain available, for example, she could culture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Mary have addressed the issue of access to cheaper Wallace): We fully appreciate this is a difficult feeds earlier. If the national pig herd reduces time for pig producers. The sector has enjoyed a much further, the industry will face issues relating period of relative stability in recent years and to survival and economies of scales and other Irish producers have shown themselves to be problems. exceptionally efficient with the result that a I would like to make a number of practical pro- reasonable income has been achievable from pig posals. I acknowledge this is not an issue solely farming. There is, however, no doubt that the sec- for Government because retailers also have a role tor currently faces a major challenge with the risk to play, as they did in the UK regarding the liquid that some producers may be faced with exiting milk market. Tesco realised there was a problem the industry. procuring liquid milk to fill its shelves and the In the past, pig producers have proven to be company made deals with producers. They asked resilient in riding out the cyclical nature of the them to stay in the industry, paid a premium for pig market whereby extreme fluctuations in price the milk and, as a consequence, the issue of scarc- and output volumes were the norm, as recognised ity of liquid milk was resolved. Fine Gael believes by Deputy Creed. In addition to such fluctu- the increasing cost base cannot be carried only by ations, producers have had to cope with the costs producers and it must be shared by retailers who associated with environmental protection and must pay a reasonable price to primary pro- animal welfare, while other factors include the ducers, otherwise the industry will not survive. I ever-increasing labour and overhead charges. We refer to the REPS 4 documentation and its refer- appreciate the conditions surrounding the avail- ences to pig manure as opposed to chemical ferti- ability and pricing of feed materials have changed lisers. Surely at a time when we are trying to be dramatically over the past six months. The pig more environmentally friendly, we should facili- industry traditionally required considerable tate the use of pig manure as opposed to obliging imported consignments of high protein soya as farmers to source nitrogen through chemical ferti- well as wheat, but it is examining importing whole lisers. The Department needs to adopt a pro- maize because of the price differential with active approach on this documentation. wheat. The Department could take on these practical Efforts to secure alternative supplies of wheat proposals. This is a multifaceted problem and to compensate for the shortfall caused by poor needs multiple approaches to resolve it, but a weather conditions in the major wheat growing Minister who sits on her hands and says she is regions of the world are hampered by the 627 Road Traffic 10 October 2007. Offences 628

[Deputy Mary Wallace.] that the Irish pig industry remains viable and increased demand from the bio-fuel industry, prosperous into the future and that, at a mini- while the lack of synchronisation in the GM auth- mum, current output levels are sustained. This is orisation processes adopted by the United States vital from the point of view of the employment and the EU is affecting efforts to use whole maize that is depending on indigenous pig production as a substitute for wheat. This asynchronisation and processing as well as the sector’s contribution has caused United States exporters and EU to net export earnings. Within the EU pigmeat importers to act with caution in view of the con- and feed management frameworks, the Minister sequences of detecting traces of EU unauthorised will continue to bear in mind the needs of the GM events in imported consignments. In addition industry and its efforts to overcome current to these factors, the cost of soya has been forced difficulties. up because of consequential increased demand. In recognition of these pressures that are com- Road Traffic Offences. ing on animal feed prices, EU member states Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: In this calendar year have agreed to suspend the obligation to set 10% alone, 160,000 fixed fines are due for processing of arable land aside. The European Commission in the District Court because they have not been is also examining ways of synchronising the GM paid. In other words, 160,000 people are refusing authorisation processes between the EU and the to pay mandatory fines for speeding and other United States. Recent statements by the Euro- driving offences. Unless we change our driving pean Food Safety Authority that it is in nego- habits, the death toll on our roads will continue tiations with the United States authorities to to rise. The Government can take absolutely no address this issue are to be welcomed. satisfaction from today’s report of a European The Minister has met pig producers’ represen- survey showing that Ireland is 20th out of 29 tatives recently to discuss their difficulties and countries in terms of tackling the issue of deaths one of the issues of concern to them is the lack on the roads. Luxembourg has achieved a of country of origin labelling on pigmeat and the reduction of 47% in its rate of road deaths since sale of imported meat under Irish brand names. 2001, while the figure for France is 42%. Ireland, Draft legislation is with the Department of however, has achieved a reduction of only 10%. Health and Children which will require the origin Any reduction is welcome but this is not good of pig, poultry and sheepmeat to be shown on enough. labels. Public consultation on this proposal is tak- The Government is failing utterly to meet its ing place on the website of the Food Safety Auth- target in this regard and is falling behind its Euro- ority of Ireland after which it will be necessary to pean neighbours. Indicative of this is the weak- seek the approval of the European Commission. ness at the heart of Government legislation which It is highly desirable that there be European-wide means that 50% to 60% of people upon whom a legislation on origin labelling of meat and the fixed penalty is imposed do not pay up within Minister has conveyed her views on this to the either 28 or 56 days. This means the Garda had European Commission and my EU ministerial no choice but to issue 160,000 District Court sum- colleagues on numerous occasions. monses to fine defaulters throughout the State We have no role in setting the prices that this year, clogging the court system in the process. retailers pay or charge for food. There would of The Courts Service has brought this issue to the necessity be a correlation between the retail fore and has put forward a solution that will prices of the different meats and there would be require the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law little scope for significant increases in pork prices Reform to take legislative action. He will have to in isolation from other meats. Demand for pork take tough decisions to reduce the incidence of both here and in the EU as a whole is in line with death on our roads. normal seasonal patterns. The Minister has asked Next year there may be close to 250,000 Bord Bia to intensify its autumn pork and bacon defaulters because the Minister is increasing the campaign to ensure demand remains firm here in capacity of the system to issue fixed penalty fines. the coming months. The operation of speed cameras will be privatised The pig industry is an important element of and there will be more of them. More people will Irish agriculture and the Government has demon- be caught and penalised and many of them will strated its support for the sector in many ways fail to pay the fine. Approximately one quarter over the years, including via financial assistance of the business of the District Court is taken up towards farm waste management and welfare- with processing these fines. It will require modern friendly sow housing, overseas promotion drives, technology and a Minister with initiative to deal negotiation of new market outlets and the with this issue. We on this side of the House will development of the pigmeat quality assurance be pleased to debate the issues with him and will scheme. fully support him in taking the necessary actions. The recent trend in prices paid to pig producers The Courts Service has suggested that instead is upwards, with an increase of 7% in the recent of the mandatory default court system, fines months. This contrasts with a slippage in the aver- should be collected by a debt agency, which age EU price. It is a matter of great importance should also be notified when motorists’ car tax 629 Fire 10 October 2007. Services 630 comes up for renewal. Another important issue legal issues as well as procurement matters have highlighted by the Courts Service is the situation emerged as areas requiring careful consideration. where of those people who go to court and are Despite this, the Minister is of the opinion that found guilty, a significant but unknown number there are very good grounds for introducing this do not bring their driving licence to court. Even system on a wider footing. though they receive a fine, therefore, their licence Notwithstanding the issues raised by the is not endorsed and they do not receive penalty Deputy, the Minister remains firmly of the view points. The entire system is faulty and determined that the fixed-penalty system continues to have and effective action is required to remedy it. great merit in the tackling of the issues being faced by the courts and will increasingly have an Minister of State at the Department of the impact in reducing the number of such cases Environment, Heritage and Local Government appearing before the courts in future. (Deputy Ma´ire Hoctor): The Minister conveys his thanks to Deputy O’Dowd for raising this Fire Services. important matter. He is very much aware of the additional strain this is placing on the courts Deputy Brian O’Shea: I welcome the Minister system. The current position in regard to the col- of State at the Department of the Environment, lection of fines has been under examination by Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Killeen, senior officials of his Department for some time. to the House to respond to this issue. The focus of these efforts has been to increase On 6 March I raised on the Adjournment the payment compliance on first issue of a fixed urgent need for a fully-equipped modern fire charge summons and thus reduce the number of station in Tallow, County Waterford. The Mini- these offences that subsequently require listing ster of State, Deputy Batt O’Keeffe, who replied before the courts due to non-payment. to the issue, stated he was fully aware of the In April of last year, 31 new offences were cat- needs in Waterford and he hoped to respond egorised as fixed charge penalties. Additionally, positively to the request in respect of Tallow as legislation was introduced to increase incremen- soon as resources allowed. He indicated he was tally the number of penalty points on conviction conscious of the need for a new station in Tallow and increase the amount of the fine if not paid and that the matter would be very much borne in after 28 days. This has had an effect in reducing mind under the new programme. the number of these cases which would otherwise I was delighted to read in the Dungarvan have found their way before the courts. Observer of 16 June that pre-construction funding In addition to these legislative changes, a pilot of \600,000 had been allocated by the Depart- study was commissioned by departmental officials ment of the Environment, Heritage and Local to examine the feasibility of, as the Deputy sug- Government for a new fire station in Tallow. In gests, handing over the collection of such fixed answer to a Da´il question put down on 26 June charge penalties to an external credit manage- to the new Minister for the Environment, Heri- ment agency. As part of this pilot project, more tage and Local Government regarding Lismore than 5,000 cases going back over several years fire station, I was informed that the provision of were selected, with a value in the region of \2 a station in the wider west Waterford area would million. These were passed over to an external be considered under future programmes regard- credit management agency to effect payment. ing the existing facilities, level of activity, proxim- The process involved a letter cycle consisting of ity of other fire stations, fire authorities’ priorities there letters escalating in tone and severity over a and competing demands for available funds. seven week period from the date the account was The Minister, Deputy Gormley, further stated received for collection. These were sent to each that his Department had written to the fire auth- of the 5,000 defaulters. In between letters, the ority requesting an appraisal of fire cover in the agency attempted to obtain contact telephone wider west Waterford area given the proximity numbers for the debtors; this was done between of Lismore, Tallow and Cappoquin fire stations. letters one and three of the collection cycle. There was also to be an outline of priorities for Where these contact details were obtained, the replacements in the county. defaulters were contacted and reminded of their Having received this reply I contacted Water- obligations. Any additional defaulter information ford County Council and asked for clarification. gleaned by the agency as a result of the above I was informed that the letter was received by activities was recorded in an on-line database. Waterford County Council on 1 June 2007, dated The preliminary results of this pilot study were 30 May 2007, from the private secretary to the quite encouraging, with over 22% of cases being Minister for the Environment, Heritage and cleared up. Local Government. It reads “I have been asked The Minister would also like to inform the by Mr. Dick Roche, T.D., Minister for the Envir- Deputy that officials are currently finalising their onment, Heritage and Local Government, to assessment of the pilot study with a view to estab- refer to your letter regarding the proposal from lishing its introduction on a wider footing. This Waterford County Council for a new fire station assessment has not yet been fully completed but in Tallow”. 631 The 10 October 2007. Adjournment 632

[Deputy Brian O’Shea.] time, have made and continue to make each day, I will skip a middle paragraph which relates to in safeguarding our communities. previous investments in County Waterford and The fire service capital programme is an annual move on to the final paragraph. It reads: programme and the 2007 programme has been fully allocated. Although no funding was pro- A formal proposal for the new station at Tal- vided in 2007 for Tallow fire station, Waterford low has been submitted to my Department, County Council may prioritise Tallow fire station along with proposals from competing demands in future years, if considered appropriate, in seek- for capital investment in fire services. Under ing funding from the Department. the programme the Tallow fire station project The first step in developing a project such as has been allocated pre-construction funds of Tallow fire station under the programme is for \600,000. the relevant local authority to prioritise it and I sought clarification from the Minister’s office in apply to the Department for approval in prin- late July as to what the \600,000 towards the Tal- ciple. Projects are appraised on a case-by-case low fire station was for. I put down a parliamen- basis. To ensure effective project management after a given project is approved in principle, tary question on 26 September and I provided a detailed cost plans and design plans, as well as copy of the letter from the private secretary to draft contract documents, must be approved in the Minister to the Waterford county secretary advance of the project being put out to tender with my question. The question was as follows: in line with public procurement provisions. These “To ask the Minister for the Environment, Heri- steps are intended to ensure value for money is tage and Local Government the funding provided achieved and the best possible use of resources is in his Department’s capital works programme obtained under the programme. Typically, under 2007 towards the Tallow fire station project”. the capital programme, sums are recouped by The reply avoided the question, stating the local authorities after construction has Department had recently requested Waterford commenced. County Council to prioritise projects it wished to Approval in principle was granted in 2001 for progress under the fire services capital prog- a new fire station in Tallow. Although it has not ramme. It further stated that the provision of been possible to provide funding for this station Exchequer funding for a replacement fire station as part of the 2007 fire services capital prog- in Tallow will be considered under future capital ramme announced earlier this year, funding has programmes, having regard to County Water- been provided for various other priority projects ford’s priorities, the existing facilities at the which have been advanced in County Waterford station, the proximity of other stations and the since 2001. These include replacement stations competing demands from other fire authorities. and extensions or upgrading works at stations in I have one question for the Minister of State. Ardmore, Cappoquin, Dungarvan, Dunmore What is the status of the letter dated 30 May to East and Tramore. The Department has recently requested Water- Waterford County Council in regard to the pre- ford County Council to prioritise projects that the construction funds of \600,000 allocated to the council wishes to progress under the fire services Tallow fire station project? capital programme. The provision of Exchequer funding for a replacement fire station in Tallow Minister of State at the Department of the will be considered under future capital prog- Environment, Heritage and Local Government rammes having regard to Waterford County (Deputy Tony Killeen): Before I address the sub- Council’s priorities, the existing facilities at the stance of the issue raised by Deputy O’ Shea, and station, the proximity of other stations, and the given that we have been debating the tragic competing demands from other fire authorities events in Bray, I am sure the House will join me for available funding. I hope I have been able to again in paying tribute to the dedication and self- clarify the matter for the Deputy. lessness shown by the two members of the fire I was not aware of the question regarding the service who so tragically died while dealing with letter which Deputy Brian O’Shea has referred to the fire in Bray, County Wicklow, almost two mentioning the amount of \600,000. I will seek weeks ago. My sincere sympathy goes to the to establish an answer to the question asked by families and colleagues of the deceased, Mark O’ the Deputy. Shaughnessy and Brian Murray, at this sad time. Deputy Brian O’Shea: The Minister of State Ar dheis De´ go raibh a n-anamacha dı´lse. might get back to me about it. I also wish to express my appreciation for the very significant contribution which the fire The Da´il adjourned at 9.40 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. services in this country, both retained and full on Thursday, 11 October 2007. 633 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 634

Written Answers.

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The following are questions tabled by Members for written response and the ministerial replies as received on the day from the Departments [unrevised].

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Questions Nos. 1 to 11, inclusive, answered rent increases significantly beyond those actually orally. recorded.

Questions Nos. 12 to 88, inclusive, resubmitted. Electronic Voting.

Questions Nos. 89 to 98, inclusive, answered 100. Deputy Richard Bruton asked the Mini- orally. ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government the entire cost to date of the electronic voting project including purchase of the Private Rented Accommodation. machines, maintenance and storage, publicity and 99. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell asked the Mini- all other costs; and if he will make a statement on ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local the matter. [22753/07] Government if and when he will limit rent increase to a 5% increase above inflation; and if Minister for the Environment, Heritage and he will make a statement on the matter. Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): The [22750/07] total cost incurred to date in the development and roll-out of the electronic voting and counting Minister of State at the Department of the system is \51.3 million (including some \46 mil- Environment, Heritage and Local Government lion in respect of hardware costs and \2.6 million (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The Residential Ten- in respect of awareness and education initiatives). ancies Act, 2004 provides that rents in the private In addition, information provided by returning rented sector cannot be set at greater than the officers to my Department indicates that the total open market rate and that rent reviews cannot, in annual storage costs incurred by them in respect the normal course, occur more frequently than of the electronic voting machines and ancillary once a year. Any tenant who considers that the equipment in 2006 was some \706,000, with fig- rent sought exceeds the market rate can refer the ures for 2005 and 2004 amounting to some issue to the Private Residential Tenancies Board \696,000 and \658,000 respectively. (PRTB) for resolution. It is a function of the Significant progress has been made in the PRTB to review the operation of the relevant transfer of the electronic voting equipment to legislation, particularly the provisions relating to centralised premises in Gormanston; arrange- rent, and to make recommendations regarding ments are being made to transfer further such any amendments considered necessary. There are equipment to Gormanston. It is not possible to no proposals currently to amend the provisions detail conclusively at this stage the total costs relating to rent levels. which will be associated with the centralised stor- It is important to note also that, in certain cir- age arrangements. Costs incurred in respect of cumstances, a provision allowing rent increases the work to date amount to some \254,000. up to 5% above inflation, as suggested by the Further costs will be incurred in relation to the Deputy, could result in tenants being subject to completion of the centralised storage arrange- increases in rents greater than underlying market ments, including buy-out costs. levels. Indeed, looking at the average increases The Government decision to proceed with the over the most recent 5 year period, the regime movement of the electronic voting equipment to proposed by the Deputy would have permitted centralised premises was made taking into 635 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 636

[Deputy John Gormley.] The Agreed Programme for Government sets account a range of factors, including costs of cur- a challenging target of a 3% reduction per year rent and centralised arrangements and the likely on average in our greenhouse gas emissions over benefits to be realised. the lifetime of the Government. While my absolute priority is to ensure that Ireland meets National Parks. its legally binding Kyoto Protocol commitments, progress in reducing Ireland’s emissions can now 101. Deputy Denis Naughten asked the Mini- be measured with reference to our international ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local commitments under the Kyoto Protocol and to Government the steps he will take to support the this Government’s commitment to a 3% average establishment of a wilderness park in the north annual reduction over the same period. The tar- midlands cut away bogs; and if he will make a get to which the Deputy refers is therefore statement on the matter. [22295/07] already in place. In meeting these commitments, I will be aiming Minister for the Environment, Heritage and to introduce further measures to reduce national Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): I greenhouse gas emissions and minimise the assume that the Question refers to the proposal requirement to supplement domestic action from a local group to establish what it calls a through the purchase of credits through the ‘North Midlands Peatlands Park’ — formerly Kyoto Protocol flexible mechanisms. This will titled a ‘National Wetlands Wilderness Park’ — in the cutaway area of the Mount Dillon group of leave Ireland better prepared to manage more bogs in Longford and Roscommon, which is demanding emissions reductions in the period to owned by Bord Na Mo´ na plc. 2020 and beyond. It is estimated that some 80,000 hectares of cutaway Bord na Mo´ na bog will become available Electoral Boundaries. by 2050. While I have no direct role in this, in 103. Deputy Joe McHugh asked the Minister principle I would very much welcome any for the Environment, Heritage and Local arrangement between Bord na Mo´ na and local Government the reason urban councillors are groups to restore the natural and amenity value finding that they are unable to make represen- of harvested bogs as, for example, in the case of tations for constituents who voted for them due Lough Boora, County Offaly. In this regard, it to the fact that they are deemed to be outside the would be essential for the local group proposing town boundary; and if he will make a statement this initiative to secure the full support of Bord on the matter. [22734/07] na Mona, as owners of the bogs concerned. From enquiries made by my Department, I Minister for the Environment, Heritage and understand that the group concerned has yet for- Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): The mally to approach Bord na Mo´ na for its support. Local Government Act 1994 provided that the Furthermore, I understand that the Mount Dillon boundaries of certain town councils could be alt- group of bogs is contracted to supply Lough Ree ered by regulation, solely for local electoral pur- Power for at least another fifteen years and that poses, following agreement by the relevant local the bogs may have a commercial life beyond elected councils. This was done in order to extend that time. the franchise to individuals living in built up areas that form part of the towns but are outside of the Greenhouse Gas Emissions. towns’ administrative boundaries. These pro- 102. Deputy Catherine Byrne asked the Mini- visions do not prevent councillors making rep- ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local resentations on behalf of constituents to the rel- Government when he will set a target to cut evant local authority. Ireland’s carbon emissions by 3%; and if he will It is also open to any local authority to initiate make a statement on the matter. [22736/07] an application for a boundary alteration to have effect for all statutory functions. A number of Minister for the Environment, Heritage and applications for town authority boundary alter- Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): ations, to have effect for all purposes, have been Ireland’s commitment under the Kyoto Protocol determined and implemented in recent years. is to limit emissions to 13% above 1990 levels. Irrespective of the precise location of the The Government’s approach to meeting Ireland’s boundary between town and county, the Local Kyoto Protocol commitment is set out in the Government Act 2001 has facilitated improved National Climate Change Strategy 2007-2012, access, interaction, linkages and service provision published in April 2007. This Strategy provides a for all towns and areas with their respective framework for reducing emissions across all sec- county councils. A modernised legal framework tors of the economy and sets out a series of and structures at local level are in place providing measures that, collectively, will reduce emissions the necessary powers and flexibility to local auth- by over 17 million tonnes each year over the orities to work in partnership to co-ordinate the period 2008-2012. provision of integrated public services. 637 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 638

In addition, in accordance with the Programme on the conduct of the archaeological works for Government, my Department will be pub- carried out under the directions. The only viable lishing a Green Paper on local government archaeological option was, therefore, preser- reform in the coming months. The Green Paper vation by record, which involves the full archaeol- will examine a number of issues with the objec- ogical excavation and recording of the exposed tive of making local government more trans- features within the land-take of the motorway parent and responsive, including the provision of project. This will ensure the recovery of all the quality customer service to the public, and certain archaeological evidence from the site and, in con- issues relating to town councils. The reform pro- junction with subsequent scientific analysis, will cess presents an opportunity to strengthen town provide valuable information on the site itself and and county structures nationally. its surroundings. As part of the reform process I will be giving consideration to Part 11 of the Local Government Waste Management. Act 2001 which provided for a Local Government Commission, but which has not been commenced. 105. Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn asked the Minister It was envisaged that the proposed Commission for the Environment, Heritage and Local would make formal recommendations on bound- Government the general location of each of the ary changes between local authorities. municipal waste incinerators which it is proposed to build in the State; the status of each planned incinerator; and if he will make a statement on Archaeological Sites. the matter. [22813/07] 104. Deputy Mary Upton asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Government the basis on which he placed a Tem- Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): My porary Preservation Order on a National Monu- Department has no role in determining the ment at Rath Lugh on the route of the M3; the location of municipal waste incinerators. Such reason he did not take similar action in regard to decisions are taken by local authorities, in the the National Monument at Lismullin; and if he context of the regional waste management plans will make a statement on the matter. [22825/07] for which they have statutory responsibility, and by commercial enterprises in relation to private Minister for the Environment, Heritage and sector facilities, and are subject to the statutory Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): In planning and waste licence approval processes. relation to the National Monument at Rath Lugh, However, my Department is aware that a I refer to the reply to Question No. 89 on today’s private company has secured planning and licens- Order Paper. ing approval for a municipal waste incinerator at The National Monument at Lismullin is a pre- Carronstown, Co. Meath and a hazardous waste viously unknown national monument discovered incinerator at Ringaskiddy, Co. Cork. In relation during the course of the archaeological works on to the latter the company has indicated that the route of the M3 Clonee-North of Kells motor- approval for the treatment of municipal waste at way scheme. The monument fell, therefore, to be this facility may be sought in the future. dealt with under the provisions of section 14A(4) Applications by Dublin City Council, on behalf of the National Monuments Act, 1930, as of the Dublin local authorities, for planning and amended by the National Monuments licensing approval for a waste to energy facility at (Amendment) Act, 2004. Following the report to Poolbeg are, in the context of that region’s statu- my Department from the National Roads Auth- tory waste management plan, currently before An ority of the discovery of the previously unknown Bord Pleanala and the Environmental Protection National Monument and the required consul- Agency respectively. The other waste manage- tation with the Director of the National Museum, ment regions in their respective waste manage- my predecessor issued directions on 12 June 2007 ment plans identify various approaches to the use for the excavation of the National Monument. of thermal treatment in waste management. The unequivocal legal advice available to me is that without a material change in circumstances, Food Labelling. I have no power to review the decision of my predecessor in this matter. 106. Deputy Liz McManus asked the Minister Before directions were issued in this case, all of for the Environment, Heritage and Local the available options, as specified by law, includ- Government the reason he voted at the Envir- ing the option of preservation in situ, were care- onment Council in Luxembourg in favour of new fully considered. The conclusion reached was draft regulations on the production and labelling that, because of the fragility of the features and of organic products which allow products to be the location of the site in a natural hollow, preser- labelled as organic if they contain up to a vation in situ could not guarantee the actual pres- maximum of 0.9% GMO content, especially ervation of the monument. This view is shared by when the European Parliament had recom- the Advisory Committee appointed on the advice mended that the limit be set at 0.1%; his views of the Director of the National Museum to advise on whether the Council decision may undermine 639 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 640

[Deputy Liz McManus.] 2004, to register tenancies with the Private Resi- public confidence in organic products; and if he dential Tenancies Board (PRTB). Failure to do will make a statement on the matter. [22817/07] so is an offence, subject, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding \3,000, or a term of up to Minister for the Environment, Heritage and six months in prison or both. In addition, under Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): The the Finance Act 2006, landlords must register a substantive political and policy decision on the tenancy with the Board in order to claim tax item referred to was taken at the EU Council of relief on qualifying mortgage interest and refur- Agriculture Ministers on 11 June 2007 at which bishment expenditure against rental income. Ireland was represented by the then Minister for I believe that the registration system is Agriculture and Food. In accordance with EU operating well, with a very high number of ten- procedures, all political decisions are subject to ancies currently registered, providing a valuable further legal and other processes — unrelated to source of data for the purpose of enforcing the the relevant political or policy decision — and standards regulations as well as the PRTB’s dis- subsequently come to the next available Council pute resolution functions. It is a function of the for formal approval which, in this case, was the PRTB to keep the operation of the legislation Environment Council held on the 28 June. That under review and to make recommendations Environment Council gave formal approval to a regarding any amendments considered necessary. whole range of decisions in addition to the item referred to in the question, including decisions on Litter Pollution. trade policy, fisheries and the EU budget. As Ireland had not opposed the substantive 108. Deputy David Stanton asked the Minister political and policy decision on this specific for the Environment, Heritage and Local organic food labelling issue at the Agriculture Government further to Parliamentary Question Council, it would not have been appropriate to No. 148 of 12 December 2006, if the National Lit- have opposed its formal adoption at the Envir- ter Pollution Monitoring System has been onment Council, irrespective of the merits or implemented in all local authorities; the details otherwise of the proposal from a policy per- of same; the initiatives in place with each local spective. authority to specifically combat the illegal dumping of household waste throughout the country- side; and if he will make a statement on the Private Rented Accommodation. matter. [22877/07] 107. Deputy Jan O’Sullivan asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Government if, in view of the legislative restric- Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): The tions in which the Private Rented Tenancies Litter Monitoring Body’s 2006 National Litter Board operates, he is considering the putting in Pollution Monitoring System Results report, place of a licensing system for landlords which released in June 2007, is based on an analysis of will ensure a minimum standard for the renting data received from 72 local authorities, or almost of residential properties. [22821/07] 80% of all local authorities. The number of local authorities operating the system has increased Minister of State at the Department of the significantly in the last three years and steps con- Environment, Heritage and Local Government tinue to be taken by the consultants who manage (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): All landlords have a the system with a view to achieving full imple- legal obligation to ensure that their rented mentation at the earliest possible date. Results properties comply with the Housing (Standards were submitted by 66 local authorities in 2005, 61 for Rented Houses) Regulations 1993. Responsi- in 2004 and 34 in 2003. Further details regarding bility for enforcing the regulations rests with the the implementation of the National Litter Pol- relevant local authority. lution Monitoring System can be found on the In September 2006 a comprehensive Action website www.litter.ie. Programme to promote improvement in stan- Actions against illegal waste activity are a dards of private rented accommodation was matter for the local authorities and the Office of announced, involving a range of measures includ- Environmental Enforcement and my Department ing improved regulation, enforcement, funding does not compile information on the level of such and information. Good progress is being made activity or any particular initiatives. I am satisfied with this Programme, an important element of that appropriate powers are available to these which is the updating of the existing standards enforcement authorities. regulations in consultation with relevant interests. The 2005 report of the Office of Environmental Submissions received in that regard are being Enforcement (OEE), The Nature and Extent of considered and revised regulations should be Unauthorised Waste Activity in Ireland, iden- available later this year. tified the unauthorised collection and fly-tipping While there is no proposal currently to intro- of waste as one of the problem areas in regard to duce a landlord licensing system, landlords are waste management which needed to be further required, under the Residential Tenancies Act tackled. The report drew attention to the 641 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 642 measures already being taken, including the Measures to ensure energy-efficient artificial appointment of over one hundred additional lighting and heating systems, with effective con- enforcement officers across the local authorities trols; to provide for air tightness testing to limit funded by my Department, and the stepped up air infiltration; to place a new emphasis on work- enforcement activity generally being led by the manship; and to require vendors to provide con- OEE and the local authorities. The OEE, sumer information to buyers on the operation of through its Environmental Enforcement Net- their home’s heating and energy control systems, work, monitors on a continual basis the enforce- are also included. The intention is that the new ment activities in this area to ensure that the rules will apply to all new planning applications momentum to tackle illegal waste activity is for residential development after 1 July, 2008. maintained. From 1 July, 2009, they will apply to all new homes that have not been substantially built at Proposed Legislation. that stage. The Technical Guidance Document 109. Deputy Kathleen Lynch asked the Mini- accompanying the draft Regulations includes a ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local commitment to review and improve the Regu- Government when he will publish comprehensive lations to achieve a 60% reduction over current legislation on noise pollution as promised in the standards in 2010, with the ultimate aim of Programme for Government; and if he will make achieving a zero carbon standard for new houses. a statement on the matter. [22816/07] It also advises that new homes should be future- proofed in order to be easily upgraded to higher Minister for the Environment, Heritage and energy and CO standards in the future. Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): My 2 Department is currently examining options to Consultants — the UCD Energy Research strengthen legislation on noise pollution, with a Group — have been retained by my Department view to meeting the Programme for Government to assist in the elaboration of proposals to achieve commitment as a matter of priority. the 40% target. Preliminary estimates supplied by the consultants suggest a cost in the order of \10,000, including VAT, per typical dwelling, of Building Regulations. which some \6,500 relates to provisions to meet 110. Deputy Michael Creed asked the Minister the requirements regarding renewables (in this for the Environment, Heritage and Local case solar panels). The balance of the cost arises Government if the new building regulations from such items as insulation of all elements; announced recently will result in 60% lower heat higher quality windows; reduced thermal bridg- energy demand in new housing; and if he will ing; reduced air infiltration; higher efficiency make a statement on the matter. [22738/07] boilers; and low energy lighting. In accordance with Government requirements, a Regulatory 130. Deputy Joanna Tuffy asked the Minister Impact Assessment of the overall proposals for the Environment, Heritage and Local which I have announced is now under way and Government if an assessment has been done by the work undertaken by the consultants will feed his Department of the expected additional cost into this. I expect to have the Regulatory Impact of each new dwelling unit arising from the Draft Assessment completed by November, at which Building Regulations, dealing with energy time I will arrange for it to be posted on my efficiency for homes published by him on 21 Department’s Website. September 2007; and if he will make a statement The draft Regulations are now the subject of a on the matter. [22799/07] public consultation process, which will continue until 26 October, 2007. I look forward to hearing Minister for the Environment, Heritage and the views of all stakeholders, which will be fully Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): I considered prior to finalising new Part L Building propose to take Questions Nos. 110 and 130 Regulations before the end of the year. together. The significance of these draft Regulations To meet the commitment in the Programme for should not be under-estimated. The proposed Government in this area, I published draft Build- 40% improvement is the largest ever proposed in ing Regulations and an associated Technical Ireland. Moreover, for the first time ever, energy Guidance Document under Part L of the Building efficiency is linked directly to national climate Regulations, which deals with the Conservation change obligations via the setting of specific stan- of Fuel and Energy, on 21 September 2007. dards relating to CO2 emissions. These draft Regulations provide for a 40% Taken together, the measures provide for a improvement in energy efficiency and a 40% step change in the approach to energy efficiency reduction in CO2 emissions for new homes. In standards in new Irish homes. They are aimed at addition, for the first time, the draft Regulations ensuring that new housing stock in Ireland is built will provide for a mandatory minimum require- to the highest international standards, and will be ment for the use of renewable energy sources, cheaper to run, easier to maintain and have a such as solar heating or biomass systems. much lower impact on the environment. 643 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 644

[Deputy John Gormley.] rough; nobody will stay in emergency accom- I will be working closely on the implementation modation for longer than is absolutely necessary of these new measures with my colleague, the and nobody will become homeless because of a Minister for Communications, Energy and lack of appropriate services”. Natural Resources, who has announced comp- The social partnership agreement Towards lementary measures to provide the necessary sup- 2016 contains a commitment to the elimination of port to installers and the building industry to the long-term occupancy of emergency homeless meet these challenging requirements. accommodation by 2010. This is well aligned with the goals of the Make Room campaign. It should Private Rented Accommodation. also be noted that the Homeless Agency, which is the partnership body which coordinates homeless 111. Deputy Joe Carey asked the Minister for services in Dublin, has already defined as its over- the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- arching goal the elimination of long-term home- ment if he has plans to improve security of tenure lessness and the need to sleep rough in Dublin for those in the private rented sector; and if he by 2010. will make a statement on the matter. [22749/07] The Independent Review of Implementation of Homeless Strategies, published in February 2006, Minister of State at the Department of the examined the implementation of the Govern- Environment, Heritage and Local Government ment’s Integrated and Preventative Homeless (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The Residential Ten- Strategies and concluded that they should be ancies Act 2004 provides for significantly improved security of tenure in the private rented amalgamated and updated. The Government has sector while respecting the rights of accom- accepted the broad thrust of the recom- modation providers to regain possession where mendations of the Review and work is underway there are valid grounds for this. In particular, the on the preparation of a revised and updated Act provides for 4-year tenancy cycles, and, once Strategy on Homelessness. As part of this pro- a tenancy has lasted 6 months, it can only be cess, a National Homeless Consultative Commit- terminated during the remaining three and a half tee, which includes representatives from home- years of the cycle for a limited range of specific less service providers (including a representative reasons set out in the Act. The Act also includes from the Make Room campaign), was established a number of requirements relating to termination in April 2007 to provide input into the develop- of tenancies, including a significant increase in the ment of the revised homeless strategy and length of notice — related to the duration of the ongoing Government policy on addressing home- tenancy — that landlords are required to give in lessness. order to terminate a tenancy. Disputes or com- Very significant resources are being made plaints in relation to these or other provisions of available to address the issue of homelessness at the Act can be brought to the Private Residential national level in a comprehensive and co- Tenancies Board (PRTB). ordinated manner. Since 2000, the Government, through my Department and the Department of I understand that the security of tenure pro- \ visions in the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 are Health & Children, has provided over 450 mil- operating well, and there is no proposal currently lion in capital and current funding nationally for for amendments to these provisions. It is a func- the provision of accommodation and care related tion of the PRTB to keep the operation of the services for homeless persons. legislation under review and to make recom- Nationally, through the work of the local mendations regarding any amendments con- homeless fora, there has been significant progress sidered necessary. in reducing the numbers of homeless persons. In the Housing Needs Assessment 2005, local authorities recorded a 46% fall in the numbers of Homeless Persons. homeless persons nationally, from 5,581 persons 112. Deputy Alan Shatter asked the Minister in 2002 to 3,031 persons in 2005. for the Environment, Heritage and Local There is now a wide range of accommodation Government if he will commit to making home- and services for homeless persons across the lessness a thing of the past by 2010 as requested country — from emergency hostels, transitional by the Make Room campaign; and if he will make accommodation programmes to outreach and a statement on the matter. [22745/07] resettlement services and long term supported accommodation. A key task and a particular Minister of State at the Department of the focus of attention in the future is to assist home- Environment, Heritage and Local Government less persons who can live independently to move (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The stated aim of the into mainstream long-term accommodation as Make Room campaign by Focus Ireland, the soon as possible. This will involve refocusing Simon Communities of Ireland, the Society of St efforts on the provision of accommodation in the Vincent de Paul and Threshold is to end home- social, voluntary and private rented housing sec- lessness by 2010. The Campaign has indicated tors, exploiting the significant potential of the that by this it means that “nobody will sleep Rental Accommodation Scheme in this area and 645 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 646 ensuring the availability of appropriate outreach coming months. The Green Paper will examine a and resettlement support. number of issues with the objective of making local government more transparent and respon- Social and Affordable Housing. sive, and will set out options for reform in advance of a subsequent White Paper. Issues to 113. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Mini- be considered in the Green Paper include: ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government the number of affordable houses • Ensuring a proper balance of power at that will be delivered under Part V in 2007; and local levels between the manager and the if he will make a statement on the matter. elected representatives; [22751/07] • The issue of directly elected Mayors/ Chairs; Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government • The establishment of town councils in those (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): Predictions of future towns that have shown significant popu- delivery of homes under Part V of the Planning lation growth in recent years, including the and Development Acts 2000 to 2006 are necess- upgrading of the former Town Commission arily subject to a number of variables. These towns, where appropriate to full Town include the volume of housing development for Councils; and, which planning permission is granted, the finalis- • The provision of quality customer service ation of individual agreements between local to the public.Work on the Green Paper authorities and developers, the timing of com- should be finalised by the end of the year, mencement and phasing of individual devel- with a White Paper to follow next year. opments and the general level of activity within the industry itself. Notwithstanding the uncer- The Government’s programme states that a tainty associated with these variables, it is esti- directly elected Mayor for Dublin with executive mated that some 2,400 affordable homes will be powers will by introduced by 2011. The remit of delivered nationally under Part V in 2007. an elected Mayor for Dublin and all other practical matters involved in establishing such an office will be given consideration as a part of the reform Local Government Reform. process outlined above. 114. Deputy Thomas P. Broughan asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Greenhouse Gas Emissions. Local Government the reason provision will not 115. Deputy Jim O’Keeffe asked the Minister be made for a directly elected mayor with execu- for the Environment, Heritage and Local tive powers for Dublin until 2011; if it is intended Government the details of the proposed purchase to have an election for this position in 2011 or if by Ireland of additional allowances through the it will have to await the next scheduled local elec- Kyoto Protocol flexible mechanisms; and the cost tions which would not be until 2014; if it would of same over the commitment period 2008 to be more logical and convenient to have this elec- 2012. [22674/07] tion with the local elections in 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22805/07] Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): The 128. Deputy Joe McHugh asked the Minister Government has designated \270 million for the for the Environment, Heritage and Local purchase of carbon allowances over the period Government the Government’s plans for directly 2007-2013. This sum is in addition to \20 million elected mayors; and if he will make a statement provided in my Department’s Vote in 2006. on the matter. [22735/07] Following the enactment of the Carbon Fund Act in March 2007, the National Treasury Man- 147. Deputy Thomas P. Broughan asked the agement Agency is now statutorily designated as Minister for the Environment, Heritage and the Government’s purchasing agent for the Local Government when the Green Paper on acquisition of carbon allowances. The Agency is Local Government Reform will be published; if developing a purchasing programme on foot of the deadline given in the Programme for Govern- the Government commitment that the State will ment of 14 December 2007 will be met; and if he purchase up to 18.035 million allowances in par- will make a statement on the matter. [22806/07] tial fulfilment of the State’s obligations pursuant to the Kyoto Protocol. A national policy frame- Minister for the Environment, Heritage and work on the purchase of allowances, which is set Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): I out in Annex 3 to the National Climate Change propose to take Questions Nos. 114, 128 and 147 Strategy 2007-2012, provides guidance for the together. Agency in this regard. In accordance with the Programme for In 2006, Ireland committed to investing \20m Government, my Department will be publishing in the Multilateral Carbon Credit Fund offered a Green Paper on local government reform in the by the European Bank for Reconstruction and 647 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 648

[Deputy John Gormley.] • The Housing Finance Agency providing Development, and a further \20m in Funds finance for local authorities and the volun- offered by the World Bank, namely the Carbon tary and co-operative sector; Fund for Europe and the second tranche of the • The Dublin Docklands Development BioCarbon Fund. No other commitments were Authority progressing development, made prior to the designation of the National including housing, in the Dublin docklands Treasury Management Agency as purchasing area, working closely with Dublin City agent. I also refer to the reply to Question No. Council; 102 on today’s order paper. • The Centre for Housing Research under- Housing Policy. taking research to inform policy and the development of best practice guidance and 116. Deputy Terence Flanagan asked the Mini- delivery of training to support housing ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local practitioners. Government when he will set up a housing authority under the auspices of his Department whose I am satisfied that these arrangements provide a objective will be to shape and influence the robust framework for the development and development of housing policy through research, implementation of effective housing policy. Our market analysis, information and advice; and if he approach has been responsive to housing need, will make a statement on the matter. [22741/07] reflected in both the level of overall housing output and a major expansion of social and afford- Minister of State at the Department of the able housing programmes. Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): In line with the Govern- Hunting Licence. ment’s housing policy statement Delivering 117. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister Homes, Sustaining Communities, my Depart- for the Environment, Heritage and Local ment, in fulfilling its lead role in developing and Government if the concerns of wildlife officers in implementing Government housing policy, works his Department that the deer hunted by a hunt in partnership with other stakeholders, housing (details supplied) are tame, farmed deer and authorities and other supporting agencies. should not be subjected to a hunt by hounds; if At Government level, integrated approaches he will defer the granting of a licence to hunt are advanced through the Cabinet Committees farmed deer; and if he will make a statement on on Social Inclusion and on Housing, Infrastruc- the matter. [22294/07] ture and PPPs, and their supporting cross-departmental teams. In terms of wider interactions with Minister for the Environment, Heritage and stakeholders, the Minister of State for Housing, Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): Urban Renewal and Developing Areas chairs the Section 26(1) of the Wildlife Act 1976 provides Housing Forum which provides social partners that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage with an input to policy development. and Local Government may grant to the master Sharing of best practice on housing policy and or other person in charge of a pack of stag implementation also forms an important aspect of hounds, a licence authorising the hunting of deer ongoing dialogue with Northern Ireland counter- by that pack, during such period or periods as is parts. In addition, engagement with EU and UN or are specified in the licence. I sought advice structures provides an opportunity to exchange from the Attorney General as to the view that knowledge and forms an important component of this section might not apply to domesticated deer. evidence based policy development. The Attorney General has confirmed that Section My Department works jointly with local auth- 26 provides for the licensing of hunting for deer orities across the full range of delivery mechan- by stag hounds irrespective of whether the deer isms. In addition, support for the implementation are wild or captive-bred. That advice has of programmes is provided by the work of a addressed this concern in relation to the licensing number of bodies which operate under the of the hunt. I will be making a decision on the Department’s aegis. These include— licence application shortly. • The Private Residential Tenancies Board supporting the modernisation and develop- Tribunals of Inquiry. ment of the private rented sector; 118. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Minister • The Affordable Homes Partnership sup- for the Environment, Heritage and Local porting the expanded affordable housing Government the files which have been requested programme, particularly in the Greater from his Department by the Mahon Tribunal; and if he will make a statement on the matter. Dublin Area; [16815/07] • The National Building Agency assisting in the delivery of housing, including regener- Minister for the Environment, Heritage and ation programmes; Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): The 649 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 650

Tribunal of Inquiry into Certain Planning Matters The Residential Tenancies Act 2004 contains a and Payments is empowered by relevant number of provisions to address the issue of anti- Oireachtas resolutions to carry out such prelimi- social behaviour in private rented accom- nary investigations in private, as it thinks fit. My modation and also extends the local authority Department has cooperated with all requests by power to obtain excluding orders in respect of the the Tribunal to make files available. However, it occupants (other than the owner) of tenant pur- would not be appropriate to disclose details of chased houses. It also provided for the local auth- material provided in this way to the Tribunal, on ority power to refuse to sell a house under the a strictly private and confidential basis, in the Tenant Purchase Scheme to a person it has course of its investigations. reason to believe may engage in anti-social behaviour to be extended to the Shared Owner- Anti-Social Behaviour. ship Scheme, the 1999 Affordable Housing Scheme and affordable houses deriving from Part 119. Deputy Fergus O’Dowd asked the Mini- V of the Planning and Development Act 2000. ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local In addition, the Centre for Housing Research, Government his plans to tackle anti-social behav- which is funded by my Department and local iour in housing estates and in particular the activi- authorities, has produced good practice guide- ties of so-called boy racers; and if he will make a lines on preventing and combating anti-social statement on the matter. [22755/07] behaviour. The Centre has also organised training courses for local authorities in this regard. In this Minister of State at the Department of the wider context, my Department has put in place Environment, Heritage and Local Government a Housing Management Initiative scheme, which (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): A number of legislative includes funding for programmes to improve measures have been put in place to ensure that estate management, tenant liaison and training local authorities have the capacity to fulfil their initiatives, and also supports the activities of local responsibilities under the Housing Acts for the authorities to tackle anti-social behaviour management and maintenance of their housing through the Sustainable Communities Fund. stock. These measures are kept under continuous In relation to the activities of so-called boy review in my Department. racers, it is, of course, open to local authorities The tenancy agreement, which is the legal basis to consider introducing revised road layouts and of the relationship between the local authority traffic calming measures in estates to counter and its tenants, will generally contain provisions such activities. In addition, I consider that close in relation to behaviour which is acceptable and liaison between local authorities and An Garda that which is not. The local authority is empow- Sı´ocha´na is essential in addressing many types of ered under section 62 of the Housing Act 1966, to anti-social behaviour, particularly in relation to initiate proceedings to secure an eviction where a the dangerous misuse of motor vehicles, given the tenant has breached the conditions of the ten- criminal nature of such activities. Moreover, the ancy agreement. Joint Policing Committees, established on a pilot The primary purpose of the Housing basis in 29 local authorities, provide an excellent (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1997 is to provide forum for members of a local authority and the for a range of measures to assist local authorities senior Garda officers responsible for policing the in addressing problems arising on their estates area, together with Oireachtas members and from drug dealing and serious anti-social behav- community and voluntary interests, to consult, iour. The Act gives recognition to the role of local discuss and make recommendations on matters authorities in actively promoting the interests of affecting the policing of their community. In part- tenants and other occupiers in their housing icular, it is the function of the Joint Policing Com- estates and also in working towards the avoid- mittees to keep under review the levels and pat- ance, prevention and abatement of anti-social terns of crime, disorder and anti-social behaviour behaviour. One of the main provisions of the in their area and the underlying and contributory 1997 Act enables a local authority tenant, or the factors. Together with my colleague the Minister local authority itself in certain circumstances, to for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, I am apply to the District Court for an excluding order examining what lessons can be learned from the operation of the pilot and we intend to have Joint against an individual member of the household Policing Committees up and running in all local who is believed to be engaging in anti-social authority areas in 2008. behaviour. The measures contained in the 1997 Act are essential to ensure that local authorities have the capacity to take effective action in this Departmental Agencies. area. 120. Deputy Kathleen Lynch asked the Mini- In fulfilment of commitments in the housing ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local policy statement — Delivering Homes, Sustaining Government his proposals for a review of the Communities, I am reviewing the provisions of role, procedures and legislation governing the this Act with a view to strengthening their Environmental Protection Agency as promised in powers. the Programme for Government; the persons by 651 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 652

[Deputy Kathleen Lynch.] 313. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the whom the review will be undertaken; when it is Minister for the Environment, Heritage and expected to be completed; and if he will make a Local Government the number, location and statement on the matter. [22815/07] extent of sewage treatment augmentation or replacement works submitted to his Department Minister for the Environment, Heritage and by the various local authorities in County Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): I Kildare; his intention to meet these requirements refer to the reply to Question No. 1108 of 26 in full in the near future; and if he will make a September 2007. The position is unchanged. statement on the matter. [23145/07]

316. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Local Authority Funding. Minister for the Environment, Heritage and 121. Deputy Sea´n Barrett asked the Minister Local Government his proposals to ensure the for the Environment, Heritage and Local availability of an adequate supply and storage Government the reason for his decision to with- capacity of domestic drinking water in view of the draw without notice funding for the local auth- increased and expected demands; and if he will ority playground grant scheme which provided make a statement on the matter. [23153/07] for \120,000 grant aid per local authority for the construction of playgrounds; his views on whether 317. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the many playground projects countrywide which had Minister for the Environment, Heritage and matching funding in place in anticipation of this Local Government if he has received reports grant aid being available may now have to be from the various local authorities in connection abandoned; if he will give serious consideration with the need to upgrade various sewage treat- to reinstating this grant in view of the crucial ment systems throughout the country; the pro- importance of playground facilities in the fight jected costs in meeting such requirements; when against childhood obesity; and if he will make a he expects to make the necessary funding available; and if he will make a statement on the statement on the matter. [22289/07] matter. [23154/07]

Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): I Ready, Steady Play: A National Play Policy, propose to take Questions Nos. 122, 313, 316 and which was published in 2004, provides a frame- 317 together. work for the development of public play facilities Local authorities were asked by my Depart- in Ireland, with the overall aim of ensuring that ment in 2006 to carry out detailed assessments of children have access to a range of quality play the needs for capital water services infrastructure opportunities to enrich their childhood. As part in their areas and to prioritise their assessments, of the implementation of this policy, my Depart- taking account, inter alia, of: \ ment has allocated funding of over 8 million to • national and EU environmental and public County and City Councils for the development of health requirements and standards, includ- 167 new or refurbished playgrounds since 2004. ing the EU Urban Waste Water Treatment \ Grant aid of approximately 4.1m in respect of Directive, the Urban Wastewater Treat- over 80 playgrounds remains to be drawn down ment Regulations, 2001 and the European from my Department by local authorities. Communities (Drinking Water) Regu- There has been no decision to withdraw fund- lations, 2000, ing from these schemes. The question of inviting • relevant reports produced by the Environ- further proposals from local authorities is being mental Protection Agency, on the quality kept under review in the light of experience of drinking water, on water quality gener- gained under the current schemes. ally and on urban wastewater discharges,

Water and Sewerage Schemes. • specific reports and studies such as the National Urban Waste Water Study, 122. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the County Sludge Management Plans and any Minister for the Environment, Heritage and other relevant studies/reports com- Local Government the number and location of missioned locally, applications for capital funding for the various • the provisions of their Development Plans sewerage treatment schemes throughout the or any draft Development Plans and any country received in his Department; the number strategic regional planning guidelines or and location of those already approved; the ones local area plans, pending; his intentions for the approval of the remainder with a view to alleviating the ongoing • National Spatial Strategy objectives, problem of pollution of water courses; and if he • Any remaining non-compliant water will make a statement on the matter. [22848/07] schemes listed in Annex 12 of the EU 653 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 654

Commission’s application to the European ramme 2007-2009 which I published in September Court of Justice in respect of Ireland’s 2007 and which is available in the Oireachtas implementation of the Drinking Water Library. Details of individual needs assessments Directive, may be obtained from the relevant local authorities. • the adequacy of existing collection networks and, in the case of anticipated Local Authority Housing. development, the adequacy of the capacity of existing treatment plants, 123. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and • the need for continued support for social Local Government the number of local authority and economic activity and development, houses built by the various local authorities in each of the past five years excluding those pro- • the need to address infrastructural deficits vided by voluntary housing organisations; the in small rural towns, and number of three bedroom or family homes • River Basin District Management Projects included; his intentions for the public housing and Characterisation Reports completed in programme in the future; and if he will make a 2005 under the Water Framework statement on the matter. [22849/07] Directive. Minister of State at the Environment, Heritage The priorities adopted by the local authority and Local Government (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): elected members in their 2006 needs assessments Data in relation to local authority social housing were taken into account in the preparation of the output, including new-build homes, in each of the \5.8 billion Water Services Investment Prog- past five years is set out in the table below:

Year 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006

Completions1 4,403 4,516 3,539 4,209 3,968 Acquisitions 671 456 971 918 1,153 Total Output 5,074 4,972 4,510 5,127 5,121 1Includes newly-built homes acquired under Part V agreements.

Output details for individual City and County Library Projects. Councils for the years 2002 to 2006 are provided 124. Deputy Darragh O’Brien asked the Mini- in my Department’s Annual Housing Statistics ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local Bulletin 2006 which is available on my Depart- Government if he will sanction Fingal County ment’s website, www.environ.ie. My Department Council’s application for additional staff in order does not collate statistical information in relation to enable them to open the newly refurbished to the size of houses provided under the social Malahide and Garristown libraries. [22298/07] housing programmes. The Government’s commitment to an Minister for the Environment, Heritage and ambitious social housing programme in the years Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): Iam ahead is evident in the Programme for Govern- aware of the current staffing needs identified by ment and in the housing policy statement Fingal County Council in relation to the opening Delivering Homes, Sustaining Communities pub- of the new library in Malahide, and use of lished in 2007. Under the National Development \ enhanced facilities at Garristown library, and am Plan 2007-2013 (NDP), some 18 billion has been more generally reviewing the overall employment earmarked for housing programmes to meet the levels in the local government sector having accommodation needs of some 140,000 house- regard to the need to deliver front line services holds over the period of the plan, including the and achieve value for money within the par- delivery of an ambitious programme to deliver ameters of Government policy on public service 60,000 new units of social housing. Under the employment generally. social partnership agreement, Towards 2016, As part of my review, my Department is con- 27,000 of these are to be delivered over the three sulting the Department of Finance in relation to years 2007 to 2009. the current ceiling on local authority staff Significant progress is already being made in numbers, including increased servicing require- expanding the social housing programme to meet ments in areas which have experienced high these targets. A total of 3,167 homes were com- population growth. pleted or acquired by local authorities and the voluntary and co-operative housing sector in the period 1 January to 30 June 2007, representing an Electronic Voting. increase of 33% on the same period of 2006. In 125. Deputy Michael D. Higgins asked the addition, a further 450 new units were acquired Minister for the Environment, Heritage and under the Rental Accommodation Scheme. Local Government the costs to date of the 655 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 656

[Deputy Michael D. Higgins.] this regard; and if he will make a statement on development, roll-out, and promotion of the elec- the matter. [23160/07] tronic voting and counting system; the costs to date of storage and maintenance of the system; Minister for the Environment, Heritage and and if he will make a statement on the matter. Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): I [22811/07] propose to take Question Nos. 125, 150, 301, 312 and 322 together. 150. Deputy Ciara´n Lynch asked the Minister The total cost incurred to date in the develop- for the Environment, Heritage and Local ment and roll-out of the electronic voting and counting system is \51.3 million (including some Government when the Cabinet Committee on \ Electronic Voting last met; when a final decision 2.6 million in respect of awareness and edu- will be made as to whether or not to proceed with cation initiatives). In addition, information pro- electronic voting; if he has plans for the disposal vided by returning officers to my Department of the electronic voting machines; and if he will indicates that the total annual storage costs make a statement on the matter. [22802/07] incurred by them in respect of the electronic voting machines and ancillary equipment in 2006 was some \706,000, with figures for 2005 and 2004 301. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister \ \ for the Environment, Heritage and Local amounting to some 696,000 and 658,000 respec- Government the costs associated to date per year tively. The electronic voting machines do not with the electronic voting machines (details require maintenance on an ongoing basis. supplied); the estimate of further financial expen- The following tables set out annual costs for ditures already contracted for; and the amount of the purchase and transport of the voting moneys already expended including VAT pay- machines and information provided by returning ments. [22976/07] officers regarding storage arrangements entered into by them in each of the 25 locations involved:

312. Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn asked the Minister Voting Machine Purchase and Transport Costs for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government if it is his intention to authorise the Year Cost of Purchase Cost of Transport use of the electronic voting machines in the pos- of Voting of Voting session of the State and local authorities for the Machines (incl. Machines (incl. 2009 local and European Elections or any refer- VAT) VAT) endum that might be held before that time; and \\ if he will make a statement on the matter. [23139/07] 2001 34,776 914 2002 5,548,350 8,106 322. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the 2003 32,728,080 80,597 Minister for the Environment, Heritage and 2004 2,716,431 24,716 Local Government his plans for the future use of 2005 0 121 e-voting technology with a view to disposing of 2006 0 0 the project to an alternative jurisdiction which might be willing to utilise such a system; if he or 2007 to date 0 25,118 his Department have received any cash offers in

Storage of Electronic Voting Equipment

City/County Location of Storage Premises Annual Storage Costs 2006 Lease (incl. VAT)

Carlow-Kilkenny Mortarstown 30,166.00 2 years Cavan-Monaghan Monaghan Town 27,075.32 25 years Clare Ennis 3,600.00 Monthly basis Cork City Togher 53,942.33 10 years Cork County Ballygarvan 35,124.00 Annual basis Donegal Letterkenny 16,685.80 Annual basis Dublin City Ballycoolin 71,265.00 8 years Dublin County Finglas 49,034.86 Annual basis Galway Galway City Nil N/A Kerry Tralee 22,624.96 10 years Kildare Clane 31,984.21 9 years 9 months with 5 year break clause Laois-Offaly Portlaoise 27,647.60 5 years 657 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 658

City/County Location of Storage Premises Annual Storage Costs 2006 Lease (incl. VAT)

\ Limerick Limerick City 64,465.30 4 years 9 months Longford Longford Town 18,439.88 4 years 9 months Roscommon Roscommon Town 9,816.00 2 years 6 months Louth Dundalk 593.47 N/A Mayo Castlebar 37,426.00 Annual basis Meath Navan 21,976.51 9 years 9 months Sligo Sligo Town Nil N/A Leitrim Carrick-on-Shannon 3,150.00 1 year Tipperary (N&S) Clonmel 31,200.00 5 years Waterford Waterford City 57,699.17 10 years Westmeath Mullingar 21,772.62 4 years 9 months Wexford Drinagh 19,064.76 Monthly basis Wicklow Kilcoole 54,241.29 Annual basis

Significant progress has been made in the transfer Minister for the Environment, Heritage and of the electronic voting equipment to centralised Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): premises in Gormanston; arrangements are being Unlike for Da´il and European Parliament con- made to transfer further such equipment to stituencies, there are no legal requirements in Gormanston. It is not possible to detail conclus- relation to the frequency of local electoral area ively at this stage the total costs which will be reviews. The last review of local electoral areas associated with the centralised storage arrange- was carried out in 1998; the next local elections ments. Costs incurred in respect of the work to are due to take place in 2009. I am at present date are some \254,000. Further costs will be considering the issues around a review of local incurred in relation to the completion of the cen- electoral areas and I expect to be in a position to tralised storage arrangements, including buy-out make a statement on the matter shortly. costs. The Government decision to proceed with the Proposed Legislation. movement of the electronic voting equipment to 127. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the Mini- centralised premises was made taking into ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local account a range of factors, including costs of cur- Government the progress of his consideration of rent and centralised arrangements and the likely legislation to regulate lobbyists as promised in the benefits to be realised. Programme for Government; and if he will make The Cabinet Committee on Electronic Voting a statement on the matter. [22809/07] established by the previous Government last met on 13 February 2007. I am at present considering Minister for the Environment, Heritage and the next steps to be taken in relation to the elec- Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): tronic voting and counting project, in association Arising from previous research completed by the with the provisions in the Agreed Programme for Institute of Public Administration on behalf of Government relating to electoral reform the Department in 2004, my Department com- generally. missioned further research by a Trinity College / My Department has had no approach from Dublin City University joint team to establish a other jurisdictions along the lines outlined in clear profile of formal systems for regulating lob- Question no. 322. byists in public life in certain jurisdictions, thereby facilitating an assessment of their rel- Electoral Boundaries. evance to public life in Ireland. This research report, entitled “Examining and Assessing the 126. Deputy Mary Upton asked the Minister Regulation of Lobbyists in Canada, the USA, the for the Environment, Heritage and Local EU institutions, and Germany” has been pub- Government his plans to review local authority lished electronically on my Department’s website electoral area boundaries in advance of the next and copies of the report were placed in the local elections particularly having regard to the Oireachtas Library in June 2007. significant population changes experienced in The Programme for Government includes a many areas since the boundaries were last commitment to consider legislation to regulate reviewed in 1998 and the need for certainty in lobbyists, and this will be taken forward having regard to the areas, with elections now less than regard to the conclusions of the Trinity College / two years away; and if he will make a statement Dublin City University report and emerging on the matter. [22804/07] developments at international level. 659 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 660

Question No. 128 answered with Question Minister for the Environment, Heritage and No. 114. Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): Local authorities are statutorily empowered to Social and Affordable Housing. acquire, either by agreement or compulsorily, land, including brown field and derelict sites, for 129. Deputy James Reilly asked the Minister the purposes of developing or securing or facilit- for the Environment, Heritage and Local ating the development of such land. These Government if he will deliver 10,000 social and powers include the power to acquire sites for the affordable housing units in 2008; and if he will establishment of strategic development zones. make a statement on the matter. [22744/07] Under both the 1999 Urban Renewal Scheme, which encompassed the five cities and thirty-eight Minister of State at the Department of the large towns, and the 2000 Town Renewal Environment, Heritage and Local Government Scheme, which encompassed 100 smaller towns, (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The Government’s relevant local authorities were requested to pro- housing policy statement Delivering Homes, Sus- pose areas for designation for the purpose of tax taining Communities, and the National Develop- incentives to support residential and commercial ment Plan 2007-2013 (NDP) reflect the strong development, especially of brown field sites. Tax commitment to expand social and affordable reliefs in respect of projects under these schemes housing provision contained in the social partner- are being phased out in the period to end-July ship agreement Towards 2016. The NDP provides 2008. the resources — some \18 billion in total — which will support increased output from social and affordable housing measures and result in the Wildlife Legislation. needs of some 140,000 new households being met 132. Deputy Emmet Stagg asked the Minister in this period. for the Environment, Heritage and Local These resources will be used to meet the needs Government if, in view of the fact that the activi- of some 100,000 households by commencing/ ties of commercial shoot operators are frequently acquiring 63,000 new social homes in the period unregulated and the need to regulate the shooting 2007-2013, through a combination of local auth- of wild animals and birds in the interest of con- ority, voluntary and co-operative housing and servation and sustainability, he will give a com- new units for the Rental Accommodation mencement date for section 36 of the Wildlife Scheme. Further households will benefit either as (Amendment) Act, 2000 which deals with the they transfer to the Rental Accommodation licensing and regulation of shoot operators; and Scheme with their existing landlords or from nat- if he will make a statement on the matter. urally occurring vacancies. Over the period 2007 [22300/07] to 2009, sufficient resources will be made available to commence/acquire some 27,000 new units Minister for the Environment, Heritage and of social housing. Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): In addition over the period of the NDP some Section 36 of the Wildlife Amendment Act, 2000 40,000 households will benefit from affordable provides for the regulation of commercial shoot housing. 17,000 of these will be delivered in the operators. This section, which is permissive in first three-year period, in line with the agreement scope, has not yet been commenced because of in Towards 2016. the increasing demands of other high priority nat- To ensure that these programmes are delivered ure conservation requirements, in particular in a coherent and coordinated manner City and those associated with the European Communities County Councils have put in place multi-annual (Natural Habitats) Regulations. Housing Action Plans which encompass delivery of social and affordable housing in their areas, Social and Affordable Housing. including Town Councils. Meetings are being held currently with local authorities, as part of the 133. Deputy Billy Timmins asked the Minister ongoing interaction on Housing Action Plans, to for the Environment, Heritage and Local support delivery in the period from 2008 to 2010. Government the directives his Department have issued to local authorities with respect to the use Question No. 130 answered with Question of funding for the building of social houses since No. 110. 1 May 2007; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22614/07] Urban Renewal. Minister of State at the Department of the 131. Deputy Andrew Doyle asked the Minister Environment, Heritage and Local Government for the Environment, Heritage and Local (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): My Department has Government the action he has taken to empower issued several circulars to housing authorities in local authorities to designate brown field sites in relation to the social housing investment prog- need of development; and if he will make a state- ramme since 1 May 2007. These are outlined ment on the matter. [22743/07] below: 661 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 662

10 May 2007: Best Practice Guidelines — Government when legislation will be introduced Delivering Homes, Sustaining Communities — to provide for the Independent Electoral Com- This circular draws attention to the publication mission to take responsibility for electoral of the new Department Guidelines Quality administration and oversight as promised in the Housing for Sustainable Communities. Programme for Government; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22808/07] 23 May 2007: Policy Framework for Regen- eration of Local Authority Estates — This circular sets out the administrative arrangements 146. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the Mini- for the submission of proposals for the regener- ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local ation of local authority estates and, as appro- Government if he will amend the Electoral Acts priate, their environs. to provide for increased transparency in the funding of political parties and for greater scrutiny of 31 May 2007: Rental Accommodation political party expenditure; and if he will make a Scheme (RAS) — This circular updates hous- statement on the matter. [22810/07] ing authorities on administrative changes in relation to the recoupment of costs and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and extension of RAS to the Back to Work Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): I Scheme. propose to take Questions Nos. 135 and 146 27 June 2007: Construction Procurement together. Reform: Revised Arrangements for the Pro- The Agreed Programme for Government con- curement of Public Works Projects and for the tains a commitment to the establishment of an Engagement and Payment of Construction independent Electoral Commission which will Consultants — This circular advises housing take responsibility for electoral administration authorities of revised arrangements for the and oversight, implement modern and efficient implementation of new “fixed price contracts” electoral practices, revise constituency bound- for construction projects. aries, take charge of compiling a new national rolling electoral register, take over the functions of 24 July 2007: Arrangements for provision of the Standards in Public Office Commission relat- Social Housing through Turnkey Projects — ing to election spending, and examine the issue of This circular advises authorities of new financing the political system. I will be developing arrangements in relation to the provision of appropriate proposals in this regard. social housing and mixed developments In addition, the Agreed Programme for through “turnkey” arrangements. Government commits to publishing a Green 8 October 2007: Social Housing Investment Paper on local government reform. One of the Programme 2007 — End-of-Year Recoupment issues which the Green Paper will address is the Arrangements — This circular advises of the question of expenditure limits at local elections. administrative arrangements for end of year There are currently no such limits, although recoupment claims under the social housing expenditure, as well as donations over a \635 investment programme. threshold, must be disclosed. I have set in train a process of public consultation prior to the prep- Local Authority Housing. aration of the Green Paper and have established a related Consultative Committee. Work on the 134. Deputy Chris Andrews asked the Minister Green Paper should be completed by the end of for the Environment, Heritage and Local this year with final proposals to be settled in a Government if he will as a matter of urgency be White Paper next year. appointing a specific project team to carry out a I am satisfied that the proposals for the Elec- programme of regeneration and refurbishment of toral Commission, together with the initiatives local authority flat complexes. [22889/07] which will emerge from the Green Paper, provide an appropriate framework to progress our exten- Minister of State at the Department of the sive and complex agenda for electoral and local Environment, Heritage and Local Government government reform. (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The Government’s Policy Statement Delivering Homes, Sustaining Greenhouse Gas Emissions. Communities provides for an expanded programme of works, including the regeneration and 136. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Minister refurbishment of flats complexes, to improve the for the Environment, Heritage and Local local authority housing stock.The development of Government the action being taken to ensure proposals for, and the advancement of, individual that local authorities are required to take into projects is a matter for individual housing account the potential impact on carbon emissions authorities. of development plans; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22803/07] Proposed Legislation. Minister for the Environment, Heritage and 135. Deputy Joe Costello asked the Minister Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): for the Environment, Heritage and Local Development plans provide the over-arching stra- 663 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 664

[Deputy John Gormley.] • a minimum requirement for the use of tegic framework for sustainable development renewable energy sources; within their areas, with a view to ensuring that all • energy-efficient boilers; development is sustainable in economic, social and environmental terms. As such, the develop- • energy-efficient artificial lighting systems; ment plan must offer clear guidance on sus- and tainable development policies and objectives, • improved airtightness of the building fab- both national and local, which address the full ric. The draft Regulations provide for a range of sustainability issues such as involved, commencement date of 1 July, 2008. including climate change, waste management, transport, urban development, sustainable com- The draft Regulations and associated Technical munities, use of natural resources and so on. Guidance Document are now the subject of a It is imperative that the objectives and stra- public consultation process, which will continue tegies set out in development plans are compat- to 26 October 2007. All submissions received will ible with the Government’s commitment to be comprehensively assessed and given due con- reducing energy consumption and modifying the sideration prior to finalising new Building Regu- impacts of climate change. My Department has lations before the end of the year. provided extensive guidance on development planning, in Development Plans — Guidelines for Local Authority Housing. Planning Authorities, published in June 2007. 137. Deputy Brian O’Shea asked the Minister These state that development plans should be for the Environment, Heritage and Local consistent with the objectives of national initiat- Government the number of persons on local ives that will address energy and climate change authority housing lists at the latest date for which issues such as the National Climate Change figures are available; the steps he will take to Strategy 2007-2012 (NCCS), which builds on the reduce waiting lists; and if he will make a state- commitment to sustainable development set out ment on the matter. [22819/07] in Towards 2016 and the National Development Plan 2007-2013. They also emphasise that the Minister of State at the Department of the objectives of the NCCS require implementation Environment, Heritage and Local Government by all sectors of society, and that it is imperative (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The most recent assess- that the objectives and strategies set out in ment of need for social housing was undertaken development plans are compatible with the by local authorities in March 2005. The results of Government’s commitment to reducing energy that assessment indicated that there were 43,684 consumption and modifying the impacts of households on local authority housing waiting climate change. Moreover, the conclusions in the lists. More comprehensive data in relation to the EPA State of the Environment Report, and other 2005 assessment at an individual local authority evidence in relation to environmental quality and level were published in the Annual Bulletin of trends, should inform the drafting of develop- Housing Statistics 2005, a copy of which is avail- ment plans and be reflected, as appropriate, in able on my Department’s website at www.envi- their objectives and implementation. ron.ie. The next statutory assessment of housing The Strategic Environmental Assessment need will take place in March 2008. carried out as part of the preparation and review The Government is well placed to deliver on of the development plan can help to bring the commitments in Towards 2016 to start or environmental issues into sharper focus during acquire some 27,000 new homes for those in need the consultation phases, and should improve the of social housing over the next three years. The overall sustainability of the plan-making process total Exchequer provision for social housing in \ by facilitating the identification and appraisal of 2007 is almost 1.4 billion — an increase of 10% alternative plan strategies, by raising awareness on the 2006 provision. The funding will support of the environmental impacts of plans, and by the commencement of a significant number of encouraging the inclusion of measurable targets new social housing units, further progress under and indicators. the regeneration programmes, as well as bringing to completion a large number of units under both In addition to the statutory requirements in the local authority and voluntary housing relation to the planning code for development programmes. plans, and in keeping with Ireland’s obligations on greenhouse gas emissions and the need to reduce carbon fuel energy consumption, I pub- Fire Service. lished, on 21 September 2007, draft regulations 138. Deputy Billy Timmins asked the Minister under Part L of the Building Regulations. These for the Environment, Heritage and Local draft Regulations provide for an average Government the number of full time fire services reduction of at least 40% in primary energy con- there are; the location of same with a breakdown sumption and a 40% reduction in CO2 emissions. of the number of full time firemen with each; and Moreover, for the first time, the Regulations will if he will make a statement on the matter. introduce: [22613/07] 665 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 666

Minister of State at the Department of the propose to take Questions Nos. 139 and 141 Environment, Heritage and Local Government together. (Deputy Tony Killeen): A full-time fire service Under the Litter Pollution Acts 1997 to 2003, operates in Cork City, Dublin City, Limerick City primary responsibility for developing and imple- and Waterford City. Dublin City Council, in menting responses to litter lies with local auth- addition provides a full time service on behalf of orities, who are required to take all practicable the other three Dublin authorities: — Dun measures for the prevention, control and disposal Laoghaire/Rathdown, Fingal (excluding Skerries of litter in their functional areas. The appoint- and Balbriggan which are covered by a retained ment of litter wardens is a matter for individual fire service) and South Dublin County Councils. local authorities within each authority’s current Galway County Council provides a full-time authorised staffing level and is one in which I service for Galway City. Drogheda Borough have no function. Council and Dundalk Town Council each provide Statistics on local authority enforcement action a full time service between the hours of 09.00 on litter, including the numbers of litter wardens and 23.00. employed, are submitted by local authorities to The number of full-time personnel employed my Department every six months; these figures in these fire authorities at 1st January 2006 is are available in the Oireachtas Library. The litter 1,296. This figure is broken down as follow: — enforcement statistics show that litter wardens Cork City Council — 148, Drogheda Borough are employed in each county council functional Council — 19, Dublin City Council — 962, Dun- area. dalk Town Council — 21, Galway County Council — 42, Limerick City Council — 67 and Private Residential Tenancies Board. Waterford City Council — 37. 140. Deputy Willie Penrose asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Local Authority Staff. Government the income that has been received 139. Deputy Richard Bruton asked the Mini- by each local authority from the Private Residen- ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local tial Tenancies Board to date; if these finances are Government the funding available for the recruit- ring-fenced to inspect dwellings for suitability; the ment of litter wardens in tandem with the number of inspections of dwellings that have increase in litter fines; and if he will make a state- been undertaken by each individual council that ment on the matter. [22754/07] has received these funds to date. [22823/07]

141. Deputy Joanna Tuffy asked the Minister Minister of State at the Department of the for the Environment, Heritage and Local Environment, Heritage and Local Government Government if, in view of his decision to increase (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): Details of funding pro- on-the-spot fines for litter offences, he will vided to local authorities to date by the Private provide resources to local authorities for the Residential Tenancies Board from the proceeds employment of additional litter wardens to of the tenancy registration fees, are set out in the ensure that litter laws are enforced; the number following table. This funding is specifically to of litter wardens employed nationally in each of assist local authorities in carrying out their func- the five years; if all local authorities employ litter tions in relation to private rented accommodation wardens; and if he will make a statement on the standards and rent books. Details of dwellings matter. [22801/07] inspected on a county/city basis are published in the Annual Housing Statistics Bulletins, which Minister for the Environment, Heritage and are available in the Oireachtas Library and on the Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): I Department’s website at www.environ.ie.

Funding (\) to local authorities in relation to private rented accommodation

2004 2005 2006 (1/9/04-31/12/04 only)

County Councils Carlow 3,905 12,991 15,210 Cavan 3,212 7,088 7,430 Clare 3,178 11,194 19,547 Cork 13,218 48,588 44,815 Donegal 659 11,115 65,095 Du´ n Laoghaire-Rathdown 19,980 92,951 102,310 Fingal 10,531 77,196 117,205 Galway 8,705 19,250 22,482 Kerry 1,116 9,102 16,313 Kildare 11,089 43,099 52,473 667 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 668

[Deputy John Gormley.]

2004 2005 2006 (1/9/04-31/12/04 only)

Kilkenny 5,105 5,291 7,658 Laois 1,471 8,292 9,261 Leitrim 2,569 5,015 16,021 Limerick 11,731 15,755 18,157 Longford 152 6,357 13,955 Louth 2,214 5,647 19,396 Mayo 118 7,877 14,556 Meath 507 16,387 17,711 Monaghan 507 3,771 3,306 North Tipperary 2,096 7,522 9,549 Offaly 1,099 5,311 10,209 Roscommon 727 8,095 10,056 Sligo 558 6,160 7,318 South Dublin 3,093 68,963 95,842 South Tipperary 963 5,489 5,669 Waterford 7,640 7,581 10,529 Westmeath 1,031 12,497 14,995 Wexford 1,995 11,569 13,387 Wicklow 2,688 16,742 19,270

City Councils Cork 39,047 93,957 136,019 Dublin 112,965 555,156 666,241 Galway 60,734 97,709 100,349 Limerick 11,951 36,308 60,948 Waterford 6,795 23,810 39,707

Town/Borough Council Carlow 7,843 4,107 3,790 Cavan 51 1,086 2,000 Ennis 9,449 11,668 10,345 Kilrush 625 336 2,000 Fermoy 270 2,448 2,600 Macroom 2,214 987 2,000 Mallow 2,958 3,514 3,706 Kinsale 389 2,211 2,260 Midleton 51 2,725 3,339 Youghal 2,062 2,073 2,160 Clonakilty 727 1,599 2,000 Cobh 727 2,132 2,420 Skibbereen 2,164 1,145 2,000 Buncrana 0 908 2,000 Bundoran 254 355 2,000 Letterkenny 338 4,699 4,073 Ballinasloe 2,857 4,758 3,644 Killarney 2,079 6,081 6,522 Listowel 406 987 2,000 Tralee 8,976 16,762 21,215 Athy 625 1,619 2,170 Naas 4,429 4,995 5,177 Kilkenny 101 10,089 9,578 Longford 423 2,705 5,070 669 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 670

2004 2005 2006 (1/9/04-31/12/04 only)

Drogheda 1,318 12,359 11,691 Dundalk 6,356 4,758 4,190 Ballina 4,412 3,692 3,040 Castlebar 372 4,284 4,032 Westport 51 2,744 2,553 Kells 51 948 2,000 Navan 2,299 3,416 3,172 Trim 1,082 711 2,000 Carrickmacross 1,200 671 2,000 Castleblayney 490 592 2,000 Clones 304 415 2,000 Monaghan 1,910 1,441 2,000 Nenagh 575 2,172 2,380 Templemore 51 316 2,000 Thurles 2,045 1,974 2,110 Birr 879 632 2,000 Tullamore 2,265 4,995 5,515 Sligo 9,398 12,162 14,636 Carrick-on-Suir 292 1,027 2,000 Cashel 406 809 2,000 Clonmel 5,646 10,780 9,451 Tipperary 287 888 2,000 Dungarvan 2,130 3,455 3,266 Athlone 4,648 13,169 11,359 Enniscorthy 304 3,534 3,290 New Ross 778 1,441 2,210 Wexford 5,680 13,800 13,350 Arklow 372 4,916 6,373 Bray 2,924 13,149 11,090 Wicklow 1,318 3,277 3,130

Total 463,510 1,582,350 2,025,896

meet with a delegation in early 2007. I have Question No. 141 answered with Question recently received an invitation to meet with a del- No. 139. egation of Midleton Town Council, to which I will reply shortly. I also intend to respond to Midleton Question No. 142 answered with Question Town Council’s application for a boundary exten- No. 95. sion as soon as possible.

Local Authority Area Boundaries. Local Authority Grants. 143. Deputy David Stanton asked the Minister 144. Deputy Jimmy Deenihan asked the Mini- for the Environment, Heritage and Local ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government further to Parliamentary Question Government his views on increasing the No. 989 of 20 March 2007, if he has given further maximum grant available from local authorities consideration to a request to meet with a del- for disabled persons grants to at least \30,000 due egation from Midleton Town Council regarding to the escalating cost of building recently; and if the Midleton Town boundary alteration; if so, when such a meeting will take place; his views he will make a statement on the matter. on such an alteration; the action he has taken or [22291/07] intends to take on the issue; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22878/07] 300. Deputy Emmet Stagg asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Government when the new disabled persons Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): I grant maximum limits will be increased. understand that my predecessor was invited to [22956/07] 671 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 672

Minister of State at the Department of the development plans which emphasise the need for Environment, Heritage and Local Government integrated provision of both infrastructure and (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I propose to take Ques- supporting services to facilitate the development tions Nos. 144 and 300 together. of sustainable communities, and provide for a In order to facilitate the continued indepen- better quality of life in working, home and dent occupancy of their own homes by older leisure environments. people and people with a disability, my Depart- Section 10(2)(d) of the Planning and Develop- ment has reviewed the operation of the Disabled ment Act 2000 requires a development plan to Persons, Essential Repairs and Special Housing include objectives for “the integration of the Aid for the Elderly Grant schemes. Details of the planning and sustainable development of the area revised framework of grant aid to assist older with the social, community and cultural require- people and people with a disability were ments of the area and its population.” This objec- announced earlier this year as part of the Govern- tive allows for linkage to be made between the ment’s new Housing Policy Statement, Delivering development plan and the County Development Homes, Sustaining Communities. Board’s strategy which is intended to bring the As part of the new framework, a revised grant socio-economic and physical planning processes scheme to be known as the Housing Adaptation closer together. The land use policies of the Grant for People with a Disability will be intro- development plan should be informed by and duced on 1 November 2007, and will assist in the reflect the socio-economic and cultural consider- provision/adaptation of accommodation to meet ations of the strategy. the needs of people with a disability. The Similarly, section 10(2)(l) of the Act requires a maximum grant available under the revised development plan to include objectives for “the scheme will be \30,000, covering up to 95% of provision, or facilitation of the provision, of the approved cost of works. Under the revised services for the community including, in part- framework, the grant level will increase annually icular, schools, cre`ches and other education and in line with the building cost index, thus protect- childcare facilities.” Community facilities falling ing its value into the future. within this mandatory objective can include places of worship, hospital and health centres, Community Facilities. facilities for the elderly and persons with disabilities, facilities for children’s play including 145. Deputy Joe Costello asked the Minister playgrounds, skateboard parks and other facili- for the Environment, Heritage and Local ties, libraries and community halls. Government the steps being taken to implement The priority the Government attaches to the commitment given in the Programme for achieving greater integration between planning, Government to ensure that local authorities housing and infrastructure provision is also prioritise the provision of community and rec- reflected in the assignment of specific responsi- reational facilities as part of their development bility for “developing areas” to Minister Batt plans; and if he will make a statement on the O’Keeffe, Minister of State at my Department. matter. [22807/07] Question No. 146 answered with Question Minister for the Environment, Heritage and No. 135. Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): Development plans provide the blueprint for the Question No. 147 answered with Question sustainable development of an area, including the No. 114. co-ordinated provision of infrastructure and services. Requirements for public open space and recreation space provision in connection with World Heritage Status. development proposals, particularly residential 148. Deputy Chris Andrews asked the Minister development, should be clearly set out in the for the Environment, Heritage and Local development plan. Government his views on nominating Georgian Planning authorities must respond to the cir- Dublin as a UNESCO World Heritage Site. cumstances of their own local communities when [22890/07] formulating their development plans, and identify the appropriate facilities required. Generally, Minister for the Environment, Heritage and appropriate policies and objectives for inclusion Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): In in plans will relate to allocation and reservation order to nominate a site for World Heritage of land, setting appropriate development control Status, it must be on the tentative list of sites sub- standards and indicating provision of specific mitted to UNESCO. The current tentative list facilities. Development contributions can also be was compiled in 1992 by an internal Departmen- sought by planning authorities to help pay for tal committee, following a public consultation facilities servicing new developments including process, and formally submitted to UNECSO in community and other recreational amenities. accordance with the UNESCO World Heritage My Department has issued guidelines to plan- Convention. Georgian Dublin was not included ning authorities on preparing and managing in the tentative list at that time. My Department 673 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 674 will be reviewing the tentative list of sites next \18 billion is being made available under the year and Georgian Dublin can be considered in National Development Plan (NDP) to support the context of that review. expanded social and affordable housing programmes. As a result, it is estimated that the hous- Proposed Legislation. ing needs of some 140,000 households will be met over the life of the NDP. Activity under these 149. Deputy Liz McManus asked the Minister programmes has increased significantly this year. for the Environment, Heritage and Local With some 4,350 units delivered, output of social Government when he plans to introduce legis- and affordable housing for the first half of 2007 lation on foot of the recommendations of the All is up 24% on same period in 2006; this includes Party Committee on the Constitution on property an increase of 51% in the delivery of housing rights; and if he will make a statement on the units under Part V of the Planning and Develop- matter. [22818/07] ment Act 2000. The APOCC report recommended, inter alia, 156. Deputy Michael D’Arcy asked the Mini- that— ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local • there should be a ‘one stop shop’ planning Government when he will legislate to allow for procedure for strategic infrastructural the compulsory purchase of land by local auth- projects, orities at agricultural or existing value plus 25% for the purpose of social or affordable housing; • the right to compensation for the acquis- and if he will make a statement on the matter. ition of property rights below a specified [22742/07] depth under the surface should be removed, and Minister for the Environment, Heritage and • the existence of land purchase options Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): I should be made public to achieve trans- propose to take Questions Nos. 149 and 156 parency in property markets generally. together. The principal recommendation in the Ninth The Strategic Infrastructure Act 2006— Progress Report of the All Party Oireachtas • introduced a streamlined planning consent Committee on the Constitution (APOCC), on procedure for strategic infrastructure Private Property, was for the implementation of developments, and the central proposal of the 1973 majority “Kenny Report”, a “designated area scheme” under • amended the rules of compulsory acquisition to provide that the value of any land which local authorities would be empowered to lying 10 metres or more below the surface compulsorily acquire land for general develop- shall be taken to be nil, unless it can be ment purposes, at its existing use value plus 25% shown to be of greater value by a claimant. , rather than at open market value. In the light of a range of substantive legal, practical and finan- The General Scheme referred to above also pro- cial considerations, successive Governments since vides for mandatory registration of, and the the 1970’s have not proceeded with such a imposition of a levy on, land purchase options. scheme, and I have no proposals to do so. However, the Government has approved the Question No. 150 answered with Question drafting of a Designated Land (Housing No. 125. Development) Bill to provide for a “use it or lose it” scheme. The General Scheme of the Bill pro- Environmental Policy. vides for— 151. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Minister • powers for planning authorities to enter for the Environment, Heritage and Local into a binding agreement with, or impose Government if he will respond to the call by UK requirements on, the owners of designated Environment Secretary Hillary Been to end the land in order to bring such land into hous- sale of 150 watt light bulbs by January 2008; and ing development; if he will make a statement on the matter. [22752/07] • an amended compensation mechanism whereby designated land, if not developed Minister for the Environment, Heritage and in agreement with, or in accordance with Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): I requirements imposed by, the relevant refer to the reply to Question No. 1102 of 26 planning authority, could be compulsorily September last. The position is unchanged. acquired at below market value; and • as a possible alternative to compulsory Waste Management. acquisition, the imposition by planning 152. Deputy Ciara´n Lynch asked the Minister authorities of an annual development for the Environment, Heritage and Local incentive levy on designated land. Government if, in view of the income received by 675 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 676

[Deputy Ciara´n Lynch.] sary for a high density of refuse to be visible prior individual local authorities, he will put a national to action being taken by the relevant authorities. waiver scheme in place in relation to the collec- Local authorities are responsible for imple- tion of refuse charges which could be availed of menting the litter laws in their own areas. In by households on low income and whereby put- effect, this means they have responsibilities in ting in place such a national waiver scheme he relation to preventing and controlling litter, and would ensure that local government is compen- they can take action against persons who break sated by central Government through means of a or ignore these laws. Gardaı´ also have the power direct payment to individual councils participat- to issue on-the-spot fines for litter offences. ing in the scheme. [22800/07] Separate legislative provisions also prohibit illegal dumping; section 32 of the Waste Manage- Minister for the Environment, Heritage and ment Acts 1996-2007 places a general duty on the Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): holder of waste and provides that a person shall Waste management services have traditionally not hold, transport, recover or dispose of waste been provided at a local level, with individual in a manner that causes or is likely to cause arrangements being locally determined and tail- environmental pollution. Section 39 of the Waste ored to local circumstances. The present legal Management Acts 1996-2007 provides that waste framework, as determined by the Oireachtas, cannot be disposed of or recovered at a facility reflects this. In accordance with section 52 of the except in accordance with a licence issued by the Protection of the Environment Act 2003, the Environmental Protection Agency, and the determination of waste management charges, and Waste Management (Permit) Regulations, 1998 any associated waiver schemes, is a matter for the provide that for certain specified activities, a relevant local authority, where it acts as the waste permit issued by the local authority rather service provider. Similarly, where a private oper- than a waste licence will be required. ator provides the collection service, it is a matter Section 10 of the Waste Management Acts for that operator to determine charges. My 1996-2007 details the penalties for any person found guilty of offences under the Act. The pen- Department has completed a public consultation \ on issues surrounding the regulation of the waste alties range from a minimum fine of 3,000 or 12 months imprisonment or both on summary con- management sector, including the need for any \ public service obligations in respect of collection viction, to a maximum fine of 15 million or 10 services to certain households or in specific areas. years imprisonment or both in the case of conviction on indictment. I am satisfied that the penal- The various submissions received and the issues ties and enforcement powers under existing litter raised will be considered further in the context of legislation are adequate and appropriate, and the review of waste management generally pro- there are no proposals to change the law along vided for in the Government’s policy programme the lines mentioned in the question. and which will shortly be initiated. Fire Service. Litter Pollution. 154. Deputy Michael D. Higgins asked the 153. Deputy Willie Penrose asked the Minister Minister for the Environment, Heritage and for the Environment, Heritage and Local Local Government the progress made to date Government if he will amend the Litter Pollution with regard to implementation of the recom- Act, 1997 which enables local authorities to only mendations made in the Farrell Grant report on take action against properties which accumulate the fire service; if it is intended to establish the high densities of refuse and other waste materials National Authority for Fire and Civil that are within public view and prohibits action Protection/Emergency Services as recommended being taken in other circumstances. [22824/07] in the report; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22812/07] Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): The 306. Deputy Phil Hogan asked the Minister for Litter Pollution Acts, 1997 to 2003, prohibit the the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- leaving or throwing litter in a public place or in ment the steps he will take to provide a fire any place that is visible from a public place. This service fit to meet Ireland’s needs in the 21st cen- includes the creation of litter in the carrying on tury; and if he will make a statement on the of a business, trade or activity or in the loading, matter. [23028/07] transporting or handling of items. The legislation also places an onus on owners and occupiers of Minister of State at the Department of the property to keep their properties litter free to the Environment, Heritage and Local Government extent that they are public places or are visible (Deputy Tony Killeen): I propose to take Ques- from a public place. The Litter Acts do not stipu- tions Nos. 154 and 306 together. late a minimum quantity of refuse or other waste The Department has implemented a number of material in order for a breach of the legislation the important recommendations of the report: to occur in this regard; therefore, it is not neces- Review of Fire Safety and Fire Services in Ireland 677 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 678

(Farrell Grant Sparks Report). These include in communities and a compact urban environment, particular the enactment of the Licensing of as envisaged under the National Spatial Strategy. Indoor Events Act 2003, which addressed a To this end, my Department issued planning number of legislative changes called for in the guidelines on Sustainable Urban Housing: Design Review. In addition, the high level of capital Standards for Apartments on 18 September 2007 investment in the fire service has been continued with the aim of promoting sustainable urban and now stands in excess of \20 million per housing by ensuring that the design and layout of annum. The Inter-Departmental Committee on new apartments provide satisfactory accom- Major Emergency Planning, chaired by the modation for a variety of household types and Department, completed a review of the Major sizes, including families with children. The guide- Emergency Management Framework on which lines have a strong emphasis on family living and local authority, Health Service Executive and the minimum floor areas and other dimensions Garda Siocha´na Major Emergency Plans are reflect this. They pay particular attention to the based and the updated Framework is being needs of children — for play space, for quiet implemented. study areas and for places to store bikes and In February 2005, the previous Government buggies. announced a Fire Services Change Programme, In addition to better internal layouts, apart- 2005 to 2007, to implement key fire services and ment developments need to be located in neigh- fire safety recommendations of the Farrell Grant bourhoods which, through good design, provide Sparks Report. This Programme set out the integrated services and access to public transport, strategy for the future development of the fire schools, health services, cre`ches, shops and so on. service and included a number of priority Together with the suite of other complementary measures addressing the development of com- guidance on sustainable residential development, munity fire safety programmes, the development these guidelines should facilitate the creation of of a risk based approach to safety management, sustainable integrated neighbourhoods in city the introduction of a competency-based approach centre and dockland locations. to recruitment, retention and career progression Under Part V of the Planning and Develop- in the fire service and the enhancement of health, ment Act 2000, it is open to local authorities to safety and welfare programmes within the fire earmark up to 20% of houses in new devel- service. Work under the Change Programme was opments for affordable housing purposes. This carried out by a dedicated Project Team, with a assists in ensuring that first-time buyers, at whom number of supporting structures, and all of the affordable housing is targeted, have opportunities stakeholders participated fully in the process. A to acquire homes at affordable prices in devel- report on progress achieved over the two year opments in city centre areas. period was published in June 2007 and is avail- Furthermore, the Dublin Docklands Develop- able on my Department’s website, www.envi- ment Authority carried out an Audit of Social ron.ie. I am reviewing the options for the next Infrastructure in 2004 which identified a number phase of the change programme having regard to of key requirements to encourage family living the Farrell Grant Sparks recommendations and such as schools, larger apartments, play areas and the need to continue to bring about real and sub- community facilities. These requirements have stantive change so that the fire service is in line been addressed and taken into account in DDDA with international standards. planning schemes.

Sustainable Communities. Question No. 156 answered with Question No. 149. 155. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government his special incentives to encourage Housing Policy. owner/occupier, especially family owner occupier, 157. Deputy P. J. Sheehan asked the Minister apartment living in dockland and city centre for the Environment, Heritage and Local areas; and if he will make a statement on the Government his plans to enshrine in law the prin- matter. [22293/07] ciple of housing as a right; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22740/07] Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): My Minister of State at the Department of the Department is progressing a wide range of poli- Environment, Heritage and Local Government cies and measures to ensure that the unpre- (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): While I do not consider cedented rate of housing and related develop- it appropriate to legislate for a specific right to ment in Ireland is planned for in a manner that housing, Government policy on housing has the supports the creation of sustainable communities overarching aim of enabling every household to within a high quality environment. Apartment have available an affordable dwelling of good design in city centre locations, which prioritises a quality, suited to its needs, in a good environment good quality of life for the occupants, can make and, as far as possible, at the tenure of its choice. a significant contribution to achieving sustainable The Government’s approach to achieving this 679 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 680

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] costs involved in their replacement, if neces- policy aim is that those who can afford to do so sary. [22993/07] should provide for their own housing, with the aid where available of certain fiscal incentives or The Taoiseach: Our records indicate that the subsidies, and that those unable to access housing Department has suffered no loss of assets through in this way should have access to social housing or fire, theft or flooding from 2004 to date. income support to rent private housing. Existing legislation and funding programmes support this 160. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the strategy and have been effective in delivering Taoiseach if his Department has entered into any increased outputs. leasing arrangements for properties for the use of his Department; the details of the lease; the level Greenhouse Gas Emissions. of occupancy of the buildings; and the use to which the buildings is currently being put. 158. Deputy Jim O’Keeffe asked the Minister [23008/07] for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government the reason the targets outlined in The Taoiseach: My Department has not the first National Climate Change Strategy 2000 entered into any leasing arrangements for have not been met; if any body has accepted properties. responsibility for this failure; and the lessons to be learned therefrom. [22673/07] Commemorative Events. 161. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach Minister for the Environment, Heritage and the extent of funds available to the commemor- Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): As ation fund for project allocation; the criteria that the targets in question relate to the period 2008- apply for eligibility; and if he will make a state- 2012, there is no basis for asserting that there has ment on the matter. [23103/07] been a failure to meet them. The National Climate Change Strategy, pub- The Taoiseach: The amount of funding avail- lished in 2000, sets out indicative reductions in able for Commemoration Initiatives for 2007 is greenhouse gas emissions that would be achieved \200,000. during the period covered by the Kyoto Protocol, The Fund was established to make resources 2008-2012, through the implementation of pro- available to groups and organisations for the posed measures. study and commemoration of historic events of The National Climate Change Strategy 2007- national importance. By providing financial sup- 2012, published in April 2007, confirms the port to local organisations, the aim is to assist and measures by which Ireland will meet its commit- encourage the development of local programmes ments pursuant to the Kyoto Protocol. Measures of commemoration. put in place since the publication of the first The following issues are taken into account National Climate Change Strategy in 2000 will when assessing projects for funding: impact, sig- reduce greenhouse gas emissions by approxi- nificance and relevance, geographic spread, mately 8.6 million tonnes per annum. The new balance between popular and academic, edu- Strategy sets out an additional annual saving, of cational content and viability. Total funding com- approximately 5 million tonnes, from a range of mitted to date this year is \91,127. measures subsequently adopted by Government. When combined with Ireland’s purchase of Flood Relief. additional allowances through the Kyoto Protocol 162. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the flexible mechanisms, annual emissions savings of Ta´naiste and Minister for Finance his plans, over 17 million tonnes will be achieved during the directly or in conjunction with Kildare County 2008-2012 period. Council, to address the ongoing issue of flooding The new Strategy also sets out areas where of properties at an estate (details supplied) in further measures are being developed, and indi- County Kildare arising form the vicinity of the cates the level of reductions in national green- retaining wall at Captains Hill, the condition of house gas emissions that may be required on foot which may have safety implications; his plans to of EU targets for 2020. address this issue; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23147/07] Departmental Properties. Minister of State at the Department of Finance 159. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the (Deputy Noel Ahern): The Office of Public Taoiseach if his Department or properties under Works and Kildare County Council have agreed the control or administration thereof has suffered a programme of works to alleviate the flooding any loss of assets through fire, theft or flooding on the Rye River, Leixlip, including the Dun Car- in 2004, 2005, 2006 and to date in 2007; the cost rig estate. These works have received planning to the State of these losses; if action has been approval in accordance with Part 8 of the plan- taken to recover these items, if stolen; and the ning and development regulations and works 681 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 682 have commenced on this project. It is envisaged River Slaney (Enniscorthy), Wexford that this work will be completed in 2008. River Mall (Templemore), Tipperary I am advised that the retaining wall at Cap- tain’s Hill is a matter for the Local Authority and River Slaney (Tullow), Carlow while it may be contributing to surface water Mornington River, Meath drainage problems in the area, it is not a factor in flooding from the Rye River, which the afore- Avoca River (Arklow) Wicklow mentioned works are intended to address. River Pill (Piltown), Kilkenny

Architectural Heritage. River Lee, Cork 163. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the River Dodder, Dublin Tańaiste and Minister for Finance if, directly or Tullamore, Offaly in conjunction with the Office of Public Works, he has proposals for the maintenance, upgrading Portarlington, Laois/Offaly and preservation of Connolly’s Folly, Maynooth, Harry’s Mall, Limerick City County Kildare; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23150/07] Rye River (Leixlip), Kildare Silleachain River (Leixlip), Kildare Minister of State at the Department of Finance Dargle River (Bray) Wicklow (Deputy Noel Ahern): A programme of routine maintenance on Connolly’s Folly has begun that New Ross, Wexford will take place over 2007/2008. The interior of the Letterkenny, Donegal structure has been cleaned and the site fenced in preparation for the erection of scaffolding in Raphoe, Donegal order to assess its structural stability and plan River Shannon detailed conservation works. It is proposed, in the future, to allow visitor access to the interior and Decisions to proceed to works on all schemes can parapet of the Folly. To this end, the matter of only be decided upon the completion of Feasi- the presentation of the site consisting of 4 acres, bility Studies. the question of car parking and visitor facilities is The Office of Public Works is also working under consideration. with a number of Local Authorities, to identify the cause of localised flooding which occurred Flood Relief. early this year and possible solutions which can be implemented through minor local works and 164. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the which can be shown to be environmentally Tańaiste and Minister for Finance if he or his acceptable and to have adequate social and econ- Department have carried out studies in relation omic benefit. to drainage needs or cleaning of watercourse, The Office of Public Works also maintains streams or rivers throughout the country with a Arterial Drainage Schemes undertaken since view to the alleviation of flooding likely to arise 1945 and while these were designed primarily to in the future; and if he will make a statement on provide improved land drainage, the standard of the matter. [23159/07] design was raised in urban areas and there is evidence that these schemes are effective in Minister of State at the Department of Finance preventing flooding in such areas. (Deputy Noel Ahern): The Office of Public The Office of Public Works will commence Works has carried out many studies since 1995 work next year on the preparation of Catchment when the Arterial Drainage (Amendment) Act Flood Risk Assessment and management studies was enacted and has resulted in a large number of river catchments throughout the country where of flood relief schemes being implemented. Cur- it is considered that a significant risk of flooding rently, OPW is involved in a large number of exists. These studies will lead to the preparation studies at various stages from Pre-Feasibility to of plans to manage the flood risks. The studies where works are being implemented. These referred to above, which are currently under way include:— on the River Lee and the River Dodder are pilot River Tolka, Dublin and Meath studies to prepare for this national programme. River Suir (Clonmel), Tipperary 165. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Munster Blackwater (Mallow), Cork Tańaiste and Minister for Finance the position in regard to discussions between his Department, Munster Blackwater (Fermoy), Cork the Office of Public Works and Kildare County River Fergus (Ennis), Clare Council in regard to the alleviation of flooding at Mill Lane, Leixlip, County Kildare and the Slate River Barrow (Carlow), Carlow River, Allenwood, County KIldare; when it is John’s River (Waterford), Waterford expected that the proposed works will be con- 683 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 684

[Deputy Bernard J. Durkan.] 170. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Tańaiste and cluded; and if he will make a statement on the Minister for Finance if the Office of Public Works matter. [23161/07] completed its negotiations with Kildare County Council in relation to the purchase of lands at Minister of State at the Department of Finance Newbridge, County Kildare in regard to the (Deputy Noel Ahern): The Office of Public decentralisation of the Department of Defence to Works and Kildare County Council have agreed Newbridge; the reason for such a delay; and if he a programme of works on the Silleachain River, will make a statement on the matter. [22927/07] which will alleviate flooding at Mill Lane, Leixlip, Co. Kildare. These works have received planning Minister of State at the Department of Finance approval in accordance with Part 8 of the plan- (Deputy Noel Ahern): I propose to take Ques- ning and development regulations and work on tions Nos. 167 to 170, inclusive, together. this project commenced in September this year. The Commissioners of Public Works have It is expected that this work will be completed in agreed terms to purchase a site comprising 1.76 2008.The Slate River forms part of the Rathangan hectares/4.5 acres at Station Road, Newbridge Drainage District and maintenance of this river is from Kildare Co Council. The terms agreed were therefore a matter for the local authority. The approved by Kildare Co Council in January 07. Office of Public Works carried out drainage The site is currently being used as a soccer pitch works on the River Slate in 2003, as agents for by a local sports club. Kildare County Council and there are no pro- The Commissioners will shortly complete the posals to carry out further cleaning or drainage planning process which has been conducted works. under Part 9 of the Planning & Development Regulations, 2001. Decentralisation Programme. The Contract for Sale will be executed by the Commissioners as soon as a number of related 166. Deputy Michael Creed asked the Tańaiste issues are resolved. The key issue is obtaining and Minister for Finance the reason for the delay vacant possession of the site. In this regard, the in site acquisition for the proposed relocation of Commissioners have been informed recently by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Kildare County Council that it is likely to be early Food staff to County Cork (details supplied). in the new year before the site will be vacated by [22914/07] the soccer club. Another issue is the provision of a footbridge to provide safe pedestrian access to Minister of State at the Department of Finance the railway station and Newbridge town. The (Deputy Noel Ahern): The evaluation of the Commissioners are awaiting confirmation as to shortlisted property solutions for Macroom is at when a planning application for the construction an advanced stage and it is hoped that a decision of the bridge will be lodged by a private devel- as to the preferred option will be made shortly. oper with Kildare County Council. As soon as the Commissioners are given a firm ´ 167. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Tanaiste and date for vacant possession of the site, and are Minister for Finance the timeframe for the plan- satisfied that the construction of the footbridge ning process to be completed and the contracts to will proceed, the Contract for Sale will be com- be signed for the site by the Office of Public pleted and the construction of the new head- Works in regard the decentralisation of the quarters building for the Department of Defence Department of Defence to Newbridge, County will commence. Kildare; and if he will make a statement on the It is expected that the building will be ready matter. [22915/07] for occupation approximately 18 months after the commencement date.The Commissioners are 168. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Tańaiste and satisfied that all of the issues related to the site Minister for Finance when the Office of Public purchase and adjoining developments in the Works expects development work to commence Station Road area are very close to being in relation to the decentralisation of the Depart- resolved. ment of Defence to Newbridge, County Kildare; In the circumstances, the Commissioners have the timescale of the completion of the develop- not been requested to provide temporary accom- ment; and if he will make a statement on the modation in Newbridge pending completion of matter. [22916/07] the permanent headquarters building. 169. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Tańaiste and Financial Services Regulation. Minister for Finance if the Office of Public Works has plans or proposals to rent accommodation in 171. Deputy Pat Rabbitte asked the Tańaiste relation to an advance section of the Department and Minister for Finance his views regarding the of Defence’s decentralisation programme moving incidence of resort to contracts for difference in to Newbridge County Kildare; if there are delays the stock market here; his plans to outlaw the use in relation to the proposed offices there; and if he of CFDs; and if he will make a statement on the will make a statement on the matter. [22925/07] matter. [22941/07] 685 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 686

Tańaiste and Minister for Finance (Deputy requirements for transactions and the Financial Brian Cowen): As the Deputy will be aware, Con- Regulator will be in a position to collect data on tracts For Difference (CFDs) relate to taking a the incidence of FCD activity. position on the future movement of a price, either up or down, of a share, a commodity or an index Decentralisation Programme. such as a stock market index. There is nothing inherently wrong in this, and appropriate use of 172. Deputy Richard Bruton asked the derivative products such as these by sufficiently Tańaiste and Minister for Finance when he will sophisticated investors can help to provide liquid- establish a clear system whereby persons who are ity and depth to the market in Irish equities. opting to remain in Dublin rather than decentral- At present, few Irish authorised investment ise with their posts will have a detailed range of firms actually write CFDs. Most investors who vacancies on offer for which they can apply, as are dealing in these products do so with UK auth- has been the stated intention of the body advising Government on the implementation of the decen- orised entities. The investors may carry out these tralisation programme; and if he will make a dealings through Irish stockbrokers or investment statement on the matter. [22962/07] firms, who would act as introducing brokers. On the other hand, it cannot be excluded that they Tańaiste and Minister for Finance (Deputy may deal through UK brokers or directly with the Brian Cowen): From the outset both the Govern- underwriter, in which circumstances, it is clear ment and I have made it clear that participation that, in practice, the specific oversight of this in the decentralisation programme is voluntary. activity by the Irish Financial Regulator is Across the public service, recruitment and pro- limited. motion practices generally are being managed in However, I would like to assure the Deputy a way which facilitates the achievement of the that, financial CFDs will be regulated as from 1 Decentralisation Programme in an efficient man- November next under the new Markets in Finan- ner. In that context agreement has been reached cial Instruments Directive (MIFID) regime as with the Civil Service unions representing general they are classified as “financial instruments” service staff that an assignment will not be made under Part 3 of Schedule 1 of S.I. No. 60 of 2007. to a decentralising post until alternative arrange- Therefore, from that date, financial spread con- ments have been identified for an existing post tracts, such as on specific shares, bonds or indices holder who does not wish to decentralise with it. of shares, will become a regulated activity and The primary mechanism for placing Civil Ser- firms providing this service will have to be vants who are in posts which are due to decentral- authorised. ise but wish to remain in Dublin is by way of Irish authorised firms will have to comply with bilateral transfer. As staff who have applied to all the requirements, including the rigorous client decentralise continue to be transferred into protection requirements, set down in S.I. No. 60 decentralising organisations, the posts they vacate of 2007. Investment firms will have to categorise become available to those wishing to remain in clients as either “retail” or “professional” inves- Dublin. Further arrangements have been initiated tors. They will have to perform suitability and for general service grades. The objective of these appropriateness tests for clients and potential arrangements is to provide to the Public Appoint- clients, taking account of the knowledge and ments Service details of staff who wish to remain experience of the client, outlining the specific in Dublin at each grade level so that a proportion risks associated with particular types of financial of vacancies arising in Dublin based posts may be instruments. Clearly, as they are regarded as a filled by those staff. The arrangements seek to high risk activity, the specific risks associated with balance the need to facilitate the effective CFDs will have to be highlighted prominently. achievement of the decentralisation programme Spread betting on matters other than on finan- with the business needs of departments and the cial instruments, e.g. on sporting events, is not aspirations of staff to be placed in appropriate covered by the MIFID or the transposing Regu- posts in Dublin. To achieve this, they allow for lations and thus will not be regulated under the prioritisation at certain times of staff in organis- new regime as from 1 November next. ations who have an immediate need to be placed These financial instruments are now a widely- in Dublin posts due to the timing of the relo- established feature of market activity across sev- cation of their current department or office. eral continents and can serve a useful purpose in It is intended that the arrangements will con- the market. Since they are shortly to be formally tinue over the full transition phase of the Prog- regulated across the EU under the MIFID ramme and my department is monitoring them in Directive, it would neither be feasible nor appro- co-operation with Departments and the relevant priate for Ireland to outlaw such activity. unions to ensure that they are operating There are no firm statistics on the extent of efficiently. Discussions are ongoing with the CFDs in the Irish market available at present. unions representing professional & technical staff However, when the new regime comes into force in relation to individual organisations. on 1 November next, under S.I. No. 60 of 2007, The position in relation to the State Agencies firms will have to comply with detailed reporting is of course more complex. The Labour Court 687 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 688

[Deputy Brian Cowen.] regarding additional acquisitions and disposals is recommendation in relation to the dispute commercially sensitive and will only be made between FA´ S and SIPTU provides a renewed public when appropriate. opportunity for both unions and management to address the relevant issues. As part of their Departmental Properties. recommendation, the Court states that it believes 174. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Tańaiste that the stated policy of effecting decentralisation and Minister for Finance if his Department or on a voluntary basis could best be achieved if properties under the control or administration individuals who are unwilling to relocate are pro- thereof has suffered any loss of assets through vided with realistic alternative career options, fire, theft or flooding in 2004, 2005, 2006 and to which take account of the proprietary rights and date in 2007; the cost to the State of these losses; legitimate expectations which they have accrued if action has been taken to recover these items, if in their current employments. The Court goes on stolen; and the costs involved in their replace- to say that it believes that the appropriate auth- ment, if necessary. [22988/07] orities should address the issues arising in the broader context of decentralisation of non-com- Tańaiste and Minister for Finance (Deputy mercial State Bodies overall. This aspect of the Brian Cowen): My Department has suffered no Labour Court finding is very much in line with loss of assets through fire, theft or flooding during the previously expressed view of the Decentralis- the years 2004, 2005, 2006 and to date in 2007. ation Implementation Group. However, I have been informed by the Revenue In relation to the state bodies generally, it is Commissioners that during the period in question now a matter, in the first instance, for each body a number of laptops with a replacement value of together with its parent Department, to manage approximately \17,000 inclusive of VAT were their approach to implementation taking account stolen from Revenue Offices. The thefts were of the implications of the Labour Court recom- reported to Gardaı´ for investigation. mendation. My Department has written to the In relation to the Office of Public Works I have Irish Congress of Trade Unions to establish how been informed that timber storage sheds were progress can be made on this aspect of the damaged in St. Stephen’s Green in 2006 following Labour Court recommendation. an arson attack with the loss of assets amounting to \13,000 approx. There have been two instances State Property. of apparent malpractices at heritage sites involving admission fees totalling over \30,000 during 173. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Tańaiste this period and these are the subject of ongoing and Minister for Finance the properties, exclud- separate Garda investigations. There have been a ing heritage properties, owned by the State; the number of incidents of floods at various heritage properties leased by the State; the purpose to sites without any tangible loss of assets. which they are put; the date of the acquisitions of each of these properties, either leased or pur- 175. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Tańaiste chased; the level of occupancy of each; and the and Minister for Finance if his Department has plans he has for additional acquisitions or dis- entered into any leasing arrangements for proper- posals. [22979/07] ties for the use of his Department; the details of the lease; the level of occupancy of the buildings; Minister of State at the Department of Finance and the use to which the buildings are currently (Deputy Noel Ahern): The information regarding being put. [23003/07] the properties owned/leased by the Department of Finance/Commissioners of Public Works in Minister of State at the Department of Finance Ireland will take significant staff time to compile. (Deputy Noel Ahern): Details of the leased space I propose to provide the information directly to used/occupied by Department of Finance staff the Deputy as soon as possible. Information are set out in the table below.

Building Name Address Location Use Commence Expiry Annual Rent

Hatch Street 13-15 13-15 Hatch Street (part) Dublin 2 Office 01 Sep. ’78 31 Aug ’13 303,308 Merrion Row 2-4 2-4 Merrion Row (part) Dublin 2 Office 01 Aug ’02 01 Aug ’22 312,116 Mount St. Lr. 73-79 73-79 Lower Mount Dublin 2 Office 01 May ’96 11 Nov ’14 933,500 Ballaugh House Street Finglas Finance Storage Unit 9 Jamestown Dublin 11 Warehouse 01 Jan ’03 01 Jan ’24 61,677 Business Park, Finglas Unidare OPW Store Unidare Industrial Dublin 11 Warehouse 01 Nov ’96 25 Dec ’07 15,236.86 Warehouse 2 Estate, Jamestown Road. 689 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 690

Flood Relief. Tańaiste and Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Cowen): The initial application for a 176. Deputy Michael Ring asked the Tańaiste Primary Medical Certificate under the Disabled and Minister for Finance the plans the Office of Drivers and Disabled Passengers (Tax Public Works has to ensure that flooding does not Concessions) Regulations 1994, is made to the recur in an area (details supplied) in County Senior Medical Officer of the relevant local Mayo as local residents believe that blocked Health Service Executive administrative area. If drains are a contributing factor in the flooding the Primary Medical Certificate has been refused problems. [23032/07] in this case, the named person may appeal the refusal to the Medical Board of Appeal, National Minister of State at the Department of Finance Rehabilitation Hospital, Rochestown Avenue, (Deputy Noel Ahern): The Office of Public Dun Laoghaire, Co. Dublin. I would point out Works is currently engaged with Mayo County that the Medical Board of Appeal is independent Council in investigating the cause of the problem in the exercise of its functions. at the area referred to. It is intended to undertake a survey of the area shortly with a view to identi- Decentralisation Programme. fying measures to reduce the flood risk. 179. Deputy Brian O’Shea asked the Tańaiste and Minister for Finance the position regarding Disabled Drivers. the decentralising of Ordnance Survey Ireland to 177. Deputy Paul Kehoe asked the Tańaiste Dungarvan, County Waterford; and if he will and Minister for Finance if he has plans to alter make a statement on the matter. [23107/07] the qualifications for the drivers and passengers Tanaiste and Minister for Finance (Deputy in the disabilities tax relief scheme in order that ´ Brian Cowen): As part of the decentralisation persons with severe disabilities are entitled to the programme it is intended that Ordnance Survey relief even though they do not hold a primary Ireland (OSI) will decentralise 200 of its Dublin medical certificate; and if he will make a state- based Headquarter posts to Dungarvan, Co ment on the matter. [23037/07] Waterford. Arrangements to decentralise are proceeding in accordance with the OSI imple- Tańaiste and Minister for Finance (Deputy mentation plan and a site has been acquired by Brian Cowen): The Disabled Drivers and Dis- Office of Public Works Dungarvan for the OSI abled Passengers (Tax Concessions) Scheme pro- headquarters. A schedule of accommodation vides relief from VAT and Vehicle Registration based on OSI’s space requirements has been pre- Tax (up to a certain limit) on the purchase of an pared and supplied to the OPW. adapted car for transport of a person with specific The latest statistical information to hand shows severe and permanent physical disabilities, as well that applications to decentralise to Dungarvan as relief from excise on the fuel used in the car, have been made by forty-nine(49) civil and public up to a certain limit. The disability criteria for servants as well as sixteen (16) existing OSI staff. these concessions are set out in the Disabled Dri- In addition seventy-six (76) staff have been vers and Disabled Passengers (Tax Concessions) assigned to Dungarvan as a result of recruitment Regulations 1994. To get a Primary Medical Cer- or promotion. A further eleven (11) trainee tificate, an applicant must be permanently and recruits based in Dublin on two year contracts severely disabled within the terms of these would also be obliged to transfer to Dungarvan if Regulations. on completion of their two year contracts they I am aware of the difficulties experienced by secure full time positions with the OSI. various groups and individuals who would prefer a wider level of access across the scheme; and as Pension Provisions. Deputies are aware, there was an inter- 180. Deputy Ro´ isın Shortall asked the departmental review of the topic, which explored ´ Tańaiste and Minister for Finance the State con- these issues. However, given the scale and the tribution to the National Pension Reserve Fund scope of the scheme, any possible changes can in each of the years since its inception; the growth only be made after careful consideration and with rate expressed in real terms of the National Pen- regard to the existing and prospective cost of the sion Reserve Fund in each of the years since its scheme and the available resources. In this con- inception; and the cost of administering the fund text, I consider any possible changes within the in each of these years. [23113/07] framework of the annual Budgetary process. Tańaiste and Minister for Finance (Deputy 178. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Tańaiste Brian Cowen): The National Pensions Reserve and Minister for Finance if a person (details Fund was established on 2 April 2001 under the supplied) in County Mayo will qualify for tax provisions of the National Pensions Reserve relief of disabled drivers status; and if he will Fund Act 2000. Section 18 of the Act provides for make a statement on the matter. [23100/07] the payment from the Exchequer each year into 691 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 692

[Deputy Brian Cowen.] administrative expenses paid by the Fund for the Fund of a sum equivalent to 1% of Gross each of those years, (iii) the costs borne by the National Product (GNP). Under the provisions of National Treasury Management Agency the Act, \6,515 million was transferred from the (NTMA) as Manager of the Fund — these are Temporary Holding Fund for Pensions Liabilities charged directly on the Central Fund in accord- to the National Pensions Reserve Fund in 2001. ance with section 23 of the National Pensions That amount included contribution amounts Reserve Fund Act — and (iv) the return on the equivalent to 1% of GNP for the years 1999 and Fund’s investments as provided by the National 2000, along with the proceeds of the sale of Tele- Pensions Reserve Fund Commission in their com Eireann. Annual Reports, adjusted for the change in the Consumer Price Index (the Commission calcu- The following table sets out (i) the amounts lates the Fund’s performance in accordance with paid to the Fund from 2001 to 2006, (ii) the the Global Investment Performance Standards):

Contribution Administrative Costs borne by Return adjusted for change in from Exchequer expenses NTMA as Consumer Price Index (excluding costs Manager borne by NTMA as Manager)

\\\ %

2001: from Temporary Holding 6,514,881,176 Fund for Pensions Liabilities 2001 971,984,499 951,598 1,940,000 −0.4% (April-December) 2002 1,034,500,000 8,864,460 2,488,942 −20.7 2003 1,103,000,000 14,080,090 3,163,667 9.2 2004 1,177,000,000 18,295,164 3,420,775 7.1 2005 1,320,250,000 23,813,896 4,375,838 17.1 2006 1,446,500,000 28,858,229 5,748,400 8.4 2007 (to end-June) 807,750,000 16,000,000 3,000,000 4.4

The market value of the Fund at the end of June and Minister for Finance the number and per- 2007 was \21,032 million. centage of taxpayers paying income tax at the Budget 2007 provides for the payment of higher rate. [23114/07] \1,615,500,000 into the Fund from the Exchequer in 2007. Tańaiste and Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Cowen): The information requested by the Deputy in a format which presents the data in Tax Code. terms of the numbers who are actually paying tax 181. Deputy Ro´ isıń Shortall asked the Tańaiste at the higher rate is set out in the following table.

Tax year Exempt (Standard rate Paying tax at the standard Higher rate liability NOT All cases liability fully covered by rate (including those whose fully offset by credits credits or Age Exemption liability at the higher rate is Limits) fully offset by credits)

Number % Number % Number %

2007 868,000 38.0 939,400 41.1 478,000 20.9 2,285,400

The figures are estimates from the Revenue tax criteria for qualification for the mobility allow- forecasting model using actual data for the year ance to take account of disabilities other than the 2004 adjusted as necessary for income and very narrow criteria that now apply. [22957/07] employment growth for the year in question and are rounded to the nearest hundred. It is there- 183. Deputy Emmet Stagg asked the Minister fore provisional and likely to be revised. It should for Health and Children if her attention has been be noted that a married couple who has elected drawn to the fact that the mobility allowance ends or has been deemed to have elected for joint when the recipient reaches 66 years and that assessment is counted as one tax unit. many over that age, particularly in rural areas, have no transport service they are capable of Health Service Allowances. using; if she will consider ways in which this ano- 182. Deputy Emmet Stagg asked the Minister maly can be removed; and if she will make a for Health and Children if she will review the statement on the matter. [22958/07] 693 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 694

Minister of State at the Department of Health dition that tiered fee structures were and Children (Deputy Jimmy Devins): I propose implemented by the services in question. to take Questions Nos. 182 and 183 together. As signalled at the launch of the National The mobility allowance is a monthly payment Childcare Investment Programme 2006-2010 administered by the Health Service Executive, (NCIP), the successor programme to the EOCP, which provides financial support to severely dis- a new scheme to support community child care abled people who are unable to walk or use services with a focus on disadvantage will be public transport and is intended to enable them introduced on 1 January 2008 and will continue to benefit from a change in surroundings, for to complement the universal supports in place for example, by financing the occasional taxi journey. all parents. The Community Childcare Subven- To be eligible to receive the mobility allowance tion Scheme (CCSS) has been allocated \153 mil- applicants must satisfy the following conditions: lion over the next 3 years representing a 16% be over 16 years and under 66 years — however, increase in funding over the EOCP staffing an allowance, once granted, will be continued scheme. Under the new scheme, services will be after the age of 66 as long as the other criteria for grant aided according to the service they provide eligibility are met. I currently have no proposals and the profile of the parents benefiting from to amend this scheme. their service. As part of their application for funding under the new scheme, services will be Child Care Payments. required to ask parents using their services to complete a simple declaration form which will be 184. Deputy Andrew Doyle asked the Minister included in a return to my Office and on which for Health and Children the reason the com- basis the level of subvention for each service will munity playgroups are being required to process applications for grant aid to parents for each child be determined. The subvention received by that qualifies for grant aid; the further reason the services will, in turn, be reflected in the reduced proposed new arrangements for funding grant aid fees for parents who qualify as disadvantaged applicants will create a two tiered system of pay- under the scheme. ment which is discriminatory; and the justification In practice, this will mean that parents with for same. [23027/07] children in such services and in receipt of most social welfare payments (or participating in a Minister of State at the Department of Health scheme such as Community Employment which and Children (Deputy Brendan Smith): The main demonstrates an underlying entitlement to same) \ supports the Government makes available to will see a 80 weekly subvention in respect of full parents to assist them with their child care costs day care (with pro-rata reductions in respect of are Child Benefit and the Early Childcare Sup- shorter hour services). Parents in receipt of \ plement. The latter payment, which is in recognit- Family Income Supplement (FIS), will see a 30 ion of the higher child care costs of pre-school weekly subvention in respect of full day care children, is the responsibility of my Office, and it (with pro-rata reductions). A further subvention \ alone amounts to expenditure of over \400m in a of 30 per week will be paid where the subvented full year. These payments are universal and child is a baby, in recognition of the higher costs benefit all parents, regardless of their income, associated with the care of children aged under 1 labour market status or the type of child care they year. Parents who do not qualify under either of choose and regardless of whether they live in these categories will be charged the cost price for urban or rural areas. In addition to these univer- their child care service, however, as community sal supports, Government child care policy has not-for-profit services will, generally, have also recognised the need to target additional sup- availed of capital grant aid under the EOCP or ports towards disadvantaged families. NCIP removing the requirement to cover rent or Under the Equal Opportunities Childcare a mortgage, and as the services are run on a not- Programme 2000-2006 (EOCP), which is co- for-profit basis, this should still be significantly funded under the EU Social Fund (ESF), tar- below the market price. geted support was provided through the staffing It is considered that the new scheme will support grant scheme whereby community based provide an effective framework for the continued not-for-profit child care providers with a strong targeting of additional resources towards dis- focus on disadvantage were awarded grant aid advantaged parents and their children while con- towards their staffing costs to allow them to tinuing to support community child care services operate reduced fees to disadvantaged parents. generally. The scheme has been informed by and Funding under this scheme was originally takes account of a number of enhancements awarded for a limited period during which recommended by the report of the Value for services were expected to move towards sus- Money Review of the EOCP. These include the tainability. This funding was subsequently con- fact that the subvention to services will be more tinued to the end of 2007, where it was considered responsive to the level of service provided as well necessary to enable services to continue to make as the degree of parental disadvantage supported their services accessible to disadvantaged parents. and the ceiling for funding, which existed under This continuation funding was subject to the con- the previous scheme, is being removed. Account 695 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 696

[Deputy Brendan Smith.] Camp West (Computer Aided Mobile Project) in will also be taken of all of the operational costs the HSE West. of the service rather than staffing costs alone. Work is ongoing on resolving this situation. Services, including full-time, part-time and The National Joint Council, identified in these sessional ones, which at present are, in some National Agreements as the primary forum for cases, inaccessibly priced for disadvantaged managing industrial relations in the health parents, will be available to them at more appro- services, has been made aware of this situation priate rates under the new scheme. and it is hoped that a solution will soon be found. The new scheme has clear advantages over its predecessor. There is an increase in the level of Disabled Drivers. funding available under it, and a majority of 186. Deputy Kathleen Lynch asked the Mini- services will benefit from the changes it intro- ster for Health and Children the number of per- duces. Existing EOCP staffing grant recipients sons who have applied for the motorised trans- who enter the new scheme will continue to be port grant over the past five years on a county funded at their current levels until July 2008. My basis; the number of applications granted on a Office has engaged in a series of meetings with county basis; the number of applications refused; existing grant recipients to outline to them the and if she will make a statement on the details of the new scheme and to gather feedback matter. [22900/07] from the services themselves. A meeting with representatives of the City and County Childcare Minister of State at the Department of Health Committees has also taken place. and Children (Deputy Jimmy Devins): The Transitional arrangements have been made Deputy’s question relates to the management and under which existing grant recipients will con- delivery of health and personal services, which tinue to be funded at their current levels until 1st are the responsibility of the Health Service July 2008. This is to ensure that existing child care Executive under the Health Act 2004. Accord- services are facilitated to adjust to the new ingly, my Department has requested the scheme, including making any adjustments neces- Parliamentary Affairs Division of the Executive sary to their fee structures. As signalled when I to arrange to have this matter investigated and to announced the new scheme in July this year, the have a reply issued directly to the Deputy. transitional period between now and 1 July 2008 will also be used to monitor and review the Health Services. impact it will have on individual groups, on the 187. Deputy Damien English asked the Mini- basis of the more detailed and comprehensive ster for Health and Children the reason a person data which will be generated under the new grant (details supplied) in County Meath must wait for application process. If appropriate, any adjust- an appointment to see a consultant urologist; if ments necessary to the scheme to secure the best she is satisfied with the length of time this person outcomes for child care services and for disadvan- must wait; and if she will make a statement on taged parents and their children will be con- the matter. [22922/07] sidered on the basis of this data and well in advance of the commencement of the new fund- Minister for Health and Children (Deputy ing levels in July 2008. Mary Harney): Operational responsibility for the management and delivery of health and personal Ambulance Service. social services is a matter for the Health Service Executive and funding for all health services has 185. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Minister been provided as part of its overall Vote. There- for Health and Children when payments due to fore, the Executive is the appropriate body to members of the ambulance corps in the Health consider the particular case raised by the Deputy. Service Executive area west will be awarded; the My Department has requested the Parliamentary numbers involved and extent of payment follow- Affairs Division of the Executive to arrange to ing acceptance of a Labour Court recommend- have the matter investigated and to have a reply ation; and if she will make a statement on the issued directly to the Deputy. matter. [23099/07] 188. Deputy Leo Varadkar asked the Minister Minister for Health and Children (Deputy for Health and Children if he will assist in the Mary Harney): Sanction for payment of pay matter of support for a person (details supplied) increases due under the final phase of the pre- in Dublin 15; and if she will make a statement on vious Social Partnership Agreement, Sustaining the matter. [22937/07] Progress, and the first and second phase of the current Social Partnership Agreement, Towards Minister of State at the Department of Health 2016, was refused in relation to ambulance per- and Children (Deputy Jimmy Devins): The sonnel, HSE West, members of SIPTU, due to Deputy’s question relates to the management and their non-co-operation with a move to a new delivery of health and personal services, which combined ambulance and fire control centre — are the responsibility of the Health Service 697 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 698

Executive under the Health Act 2004. Accord- have this matter investigated and to have a reply ingly, my Department has requested the issued directly to the Deputy. Parliamentary Affairs Division of the Executive to arrange to have his matter investigated and to Hospital Services. have a reply issued directly to the Deputy. 191. Deputy Dan Neville asked the Minister for Health and Children the number of patients who Services for People with Disabilities. were re-admitted to hospital within one week of 189. Deputy Pat Rabbitte asked the Minister discharge in 2005. [22946/07] for Health and Children if she will take the necessary steps to cause transport to be provided for a Minister for Health and Children (Deputy child (details supplied) in Dublin 24; and if she Mary Harney): Operational responsibility for the will make a statement on the matter. [22938/07] management and delivery of health and personal social services was assigned to the Health Service Minister of State at the Department of Health Executive and funding for all health services has and Children (Deputy Jimmy Devins): The been provided as part of its overall Vote. There- Department of Health and Children has no statu- fore, the Executive is the appropriate body to tory responsibility in relation to paying the consider the particular issue raised by the private transport costs of a child with special Deputy. My Department has requested the needs who is attending a pre-school. Parliamentary Affairs Division of the Executive to arrange to have this matter investigated and to have a reply issued directly to the Deputy. Health Services. 190. Deputy Mary O’Rourke asked the Mini- Ambulance Service. ster for Health and Children the situation and 192. Deputy Brendan Howlin asked the Mini- status of the proposed one stop shop health ster for Health and Children if she is satisfied centre in Athlone, County Westmeath; and if her with arrangements for air ambulance services attention has been drawn to the decision by the provided in the State; the number of times heli- previous person in the Health Service Executive copters were used for air ambulance purposes in responsible for the project to unilaterally alter the each of the past three years; if she has examined design and monetary basis for the this project air ambulance provision in other EU countries; despite the fact she had earlier agreed all and if she will make a statement on the details. [22944/07] matter. [22949/07]

Minister for Health and Children (Deputy Minister for Health and Children (Deputy Mary Harney): The Primary Care Strategy aims Mary Harney): Operational responsibility for the to increase health service capacity through the management and delivery of health and personal development of services in the community to give social services is a matter for the Health Service people direct access to integrated multi-dis- Executive and funding for all health services has ciplinary teams of occupational therapists, been provided as part of its overall Vote. There- general practitioners, nurses, home helps, physio- fore, the Executive is the appropriate body to therapists and others. consider the particular issue raised by the It has been estimated that up to 95% of Deputy. My Department has requested the people’s health and social services needs can be Parliamentary Affairs Division of the Executive properly met within a primary care setting and to arrange to have the matter investigated and to the establishment of new Primary Care Teams have a reply issued directly to the Deputy. can contribute greatly to enhancing community based health services. National Lottery Funding. The provision of the appropriate infrastructure 193. Deputy Finian McGrath asked the Mini- to facilitate the delivery of primary care services ster for Health and Children if she will support a is being considered by the HSE, having regard to group (details supplied) in Dublin 7; and if she a number of factors. These include the type and will make funding for heart operations a configuration of the services involved, the mixed priority. [22950/07] public/private nature of our health system, the suitability of existing infrastructure and the capi- Minister for Health and Children (Deputy tal requirements of the health services generally Mary Harney): Applications for funding from the over the coming years. Health and Children National Lottery allocation As the Health Service Executive has the oper- are received from individuals, groups, and organ- ational and funding responsibility for Primary isations with an involvement in the provision of Care services, it is the appropriate body to con- health services to specific client groups and sider the particular matter raised by the Deputy. national groups providing information and sup- My Department has requested the Parliamentary port regarding disability and illness and groups Affairs Division of the Executive to arrange to with a specific interest. To date, no application 699 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 700

[Deputy Mary Harney.] 100 Primary Care Teams in development; a for National Lottery funding has been received further \22m is being provided in 2007 to meet from the organisation referred to by the Deputy. the full year costs of the 2006 developments and to enable a further 100 Primary Care Teams in Health Services. development to be established. The development of these teams will facilitate a significant increase 194. Deputy Fergus O’Dowd asked the Mini- in capacity for delivery of physiotherapy services ster for Health and Children the number of com- in primary care settings. plaints received in relation to the doctor on call The Government has committed under the service in County Louth since the inception of Towards 2016 agreement to the establishment of this service; if investigations were carried out as 300 Primary Care Teams by 2008; 400 by 2009; a result of such complaints; the time scale and 500 by 2011. A review of these targets will be involved; if the complainant was dissatisfied; if so, undertaken in 2008. the further action that was taken; and if she will As the Health Service Executive has the oper- make a statement on the matter. [22951/07] ational and funding responsibility for Primary Care services, it is the appropriate body to con- Minister for Health and Children (Deputy sider the particular matter raised by the Deputy. Mary Harney): Out of hours co-operatives allow My Department has requested the Parliamentary general practitioners to put in place arrangements Affairs Division of the Executive to arrange to to provide services to their patients, while their have this matter investigated and to have a reply surgeries are closed in the evenings, on weekends issued directly to the Deputy. and bank holidays. The development of GP co- operatives is in line with the overall health service policy of strengthening primary care services and Child Care Services. ensuring that to the greatest extent possible, 196. Deputy Billy Timmins asked the Minister people’s care needs are met in the primary care for Health and Children the position in relation setting. to a person (details supplied) in County Wicklow Out of hours co-operatives are now in place in who is in receipt of assistance under the equal all Health Service Executive (HSE) areas, provid- opportunities childcare programme, now the ing coverage in all or in part of all counties. In NCIP 2006 to 2010, until the end of December 2007, almost \37 million is available to the HSE 2007; if they can be informed that funding will be to fund the operation of GP out of hours services. provided; his views on having each funding This figure does not include the fees of the partic- period run until the end of the academic year; ipating doctors. and if she will make a statement on the As the Health Service Executive has the oper- matter. [22960/07] ational and funding responsibility for this service, it is the appropriate body to provide the infor- Minister for Health and Children (Deputy mation sought by the Deputy. My Department Mary Harney): As the Deputy will be aware, I has therefore requested the Parliamentary Affairs have responsibility for the Equal Opportunities Division of the Executive to arrange to address Childcare Programme 2000-2006 (EOCP) and the this matter and to have a reply issued directly to National Childcare Investment Programme 2006- the Deputy. 2010 (NCIP), which are being implemented by the Office of the Minister for Children. 195. Deputy Billy Timmins asked the Minister Under the Equal Opportunities Childcare for Health and Children the reason waiting times Programme 2000-2006 (EOCP), which is co- for physiotherapy at a health centre in County funded under the EU Social Fund (ESF), tar- Wicklow; and if she will make a statement on the geted support was provided through the staffing matter. [22959/07] support grant scheme whereby community based not-for-profit childcare providers with a strong Minister for Health and Children (Deputy focus on disadvantage were awarded grant aid Mary Harney): The Primary Care Strategy aims towards their staffing costs to allow them to to develop services in the community to give operate reduced fees to disadvantaged parents. people direct access to integrated multi-dis- The Group in question was approved a total of ciplinary teams of general practitioners, physio- \220,000 staffing grant assistance under the therapists, nurses, home helps, occupational scheme including \108,800 to cover the period to therapists and others. the end of December 2007. The Group has also It has been estimated that up to 95% of been approved a total of \22,297 in capital grant people’s health and social services needs can be assistance under the EOCP. properly met within a primary care setting and As signalled at the launch of the National the establishment of new Primary Care Teams Childcare Investment Programme 2006-2010 can contribute greatly to enhancing community (NCIP), the successor programme to the EOCP, based health services. a new scheme to support community childcare The HSE received an additional \10m in fund- services with a focus on disadvantage will be ing in 2006 to enable the establishment of up to introduced on 1 January 2008. The Community 701 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 702

Childcare Subvention Scheme (CCSS) has been to arrange to have the matter investigated and to allocated \153 million over the next 3 years rep- have a reply issued directly to the Deputy. resenting a 16% increase in funding over the EOCP staffing scheme. Under the new scheme, Cancer Treatment Services. services will be grant aided according to the service they provide and the profile of the parents 198. Deputy Charlie O’Connor asked the Mini- benefiting from their service. In turn, the subven- ster for Health and Children the position regard- tion received by the services will be reflected in ing her proposals in respect of cancer services; the reduced fees for parents who qualify as dis- and if she will make a statement on the advantaged under the scheme. matter. [22974/07] Transitional arrangements have been made under which existing grant recipients can con- Minister for Health and Children (Deputy tinue to be funded at their current levels until 1 Mary Harney): The implementation of the July 2008. This is to ensure that existing childcare National Strategy for Cancer Control is a major services are facilitated to adjust to the new priority for me and for this Government. The scheme, including making any adjustments neces- delivery of cancer services on a programmatic sary to their fee structures. As signalled when I basis will serve to ensure equity of access to announced the new scheme in July this year, the services and equality of patient outcome irrespec- transitional period between now and 1 July 2008 tive of geography. The recent decisions of the will also be used to monitor and review the Health Service Executive (HSE) in relation to the impact it will have on individual groups, on the designation of four managed cancer control net- basis of the more detailed and comprehensive works and eight cancer centres will be data which is due to be received from applicants implemented on a managed and phased basis. in November, which will determine the grant aid The HSE plans to have completed 80-90% of the for the second half of 2008. If appropriate, any transition of services to the cancer centres by the adjustments necessary to the scheme to secure end of 2009. the best outcomes for childcare services and for My Department and the HSE have been work- disadvantaged parents and their children will be ing closely on the examination of procurement considered on the basis of this data and well in options in order to expedite the delivery of the advance of the commencement of the new fund- National Plan for Radiation Oncology. The HSE ing levels in July 2008. has confirmed that it will have in place radiation In 2008, it is proposed that applications for oncology capacity to meet the needs of the popu- funding in respect of 2009 will be assessed on the lation by 2010. After 2010 the HSE will continue basis of information collected and returned to my to increase capacity to ensure that these needs Office in September, with a similar arrangement continue to be met. applying in 2009 in respect of 2010. Experience I fully support the appointment by the HSE of has shown that this is generally the best time for Prof. Tom Keane as Interim National Cancer childcare services to establish an accurate and Control Director. Investment in cancer control representative profile of their service. will be based on the reform programme now being implemented by the HSE. I consider it Ambulance Service. essential that the National Cancer Control Prog- ramme is delivered as rapidly as possible and I 197. Deputy Richard Bruton asked the Mini- am particularly keen to see early progress in this ster for Health and Children if she has required regard. I intend to chair regular review meetings that the Health Service Executive would report involving the HSE and Prof. Keane to monitor instances where ambulances are prevented from delivery of the programme. Progress will also be leaving accident and emergency departments due considered on an ongoing basis by the Cabinet to the lack of trolleys to receive patients; if she Sub-Committee on Health & Children. has indicated to the HSE that such occurrences represent a threat to patient safety; if she has Health Services. requested the introduction of protocols to prevent same; and if she will make a statement 199. Deputy Charlie O’Connor asked the Mini- on the matter. [22963/07] ster for Health and Children if she has received a copy of the recently published research study Minister for Health and Children (Deputy titled Taking the First Steps to a healthier Fet- Mary Harney): Operational responsibility for the tercairn; if this community in Tallaght west needs management and delivery of health and personal its own general practitioners services; if she will social services is a matter for the Health Service have the recommendations considered by the Executive and funding for all health services has Health Service Executive and her Department; been provided as part of its overall Vote. There- and if she will make a statement on the fore, the Executive is the appropriate body to matter. [22975/07] consider the particular issue raised by the Deputy. My Department has requested the Minister for Health and Children (Deputy Parliamentary Affairs Division of the Executive Mary Harney): I am conscious of the complex 703 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 704

[Deputy Mary Harney.] administrative capacity. In that regard, it is a range of social and environmental circumstances matter for the Executive to manage and deploy which affect Fettercairn and a number of other its human resources to best meet the require- disadvantaged urban areas around the country. ments of the Annual Service Plan for the delivery The health services have a key role to play work- of health and personal social services to the ing with communities and a range of other statu- public. The Executive is the appropriate body to tory and non-statutory interests in ensuring a co- consider the matter raised by the Deputy. My ordinated and integrated response in such areas. Department has requested the Parliamentary I am also aware of the research study titled Affairs Division of the Executive to arrange to ’Taking the First Steps to a Healthier Fettercairn’ have the matter investigated and to have a reply which was launched recently. In this regard, the issued to the Deputy. Health Service Executive (HSE) has indicated to my Department that it proposes to meet with the Health Service Management. Fettercairn Community Health Project in order to discuss and progress activation of the report’s 201. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister recommendations on health services. for Health and Children the financial savings that The Programme for Government commits to have been made in the administrative areas, both ensuring that there is a primary care team serving staffing and accommodation, by the absorption of every community, with particular reference to all health boards into the Heath Service Execu- new and rapidly growing areas. Five hundred new tive. [22978/07] primary care teams will be funded by 2011. Primary Care services are provided by a wide Minister for Health and Children (Deputy range of community based, directly employed Mary Harney): As the Deputy will be aware, health care professionals, and private contractors, health services in Ireland were, for many years, such as GPs; Community Pharmacists; Dentists; delivered through a combination of public, volun- Community Ophthalmic clinicians and tary and private suppliers. Eight Health Boards Chiropodists/Podiatrists and their practice staff. were established under the Health Act (1970) to Funding totalling \32m has been provided in 2006 provide health and personal social services for the and 2007 for the establishment of 200 Primary population. The Eastern Regional Health Auth- Care Teams involving 600 new frontline pro- ority (ERHA) was established on 1 March 2000, fessionals (300 per year). replacing the Eastern Health Board. The ERHA Under the Health Act 2004, the management comprised three area health boards which and delivery of health and personal social services covered the same region as the former Eastern are the responsibility of the Health Service Health Board. Executive. This includes operational responsi- Apart from the establishment of the ERHA in bility for the selection and recruitment of general 2000, the system of delivery of health and per- practitioners to provide services under the sonal social services remained unchanged for General Medical Services Scheme and also the over thirty years, during which time the com- selection of locations for Primary Care Teams. plexity of services and the degree of inter-work- Accordingly, my Department has requested the ing between different agencies and sectors had Parliamentary Affairs Division of the Executive greatly increased. The location of specialist and to arrange to address this matter and to have a tertiary level services and the planning of new reply issued directly to the Deputy. services had a regional rather than a national focus. There were inequalities in the level of services provided in different health board areas Health Service Staff. and inconsistencies in the interpretation of eligi- 200. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister bility for services. Duplication of services in for Health and Children the number of staff adjacent areas and lack of provision in other employed by each of the health boards in an areas occurred. Different and incompatible IT administrative capacity prior to the formation of systems were developed in different health the Health Service Executive; the level of staffing boards and in voluntary hospitals, making the in an administrative capacity on the formation of sharing of information difficult or impossible. the HSE; the level of administrative staffing Administration costs in supporting what were, in now. [22977/07] effect, eleven different health boards were higher than necessary. The decision was taken to Minister for Health and Children (Deputy develop a new health strategy to review the exist- Mary Harney): Under Part 10 of the Health Act ing situation and plan for the future of the health 2004, the health boards were dissolved and their system in Ireland. functions and employees transferred to the The Health Service Reform Programme, which Health Service Executive. Subject to overall par- was approved by Government in June 2003, out- ameters set by Government, the Health Service lined a range of reforms to help deliver a more Executive has the responsibility for determining responsive, adaptable health system that meets the composition of its staffing complement, the needs of the population effectively and at an including the number of staff employed in an affordable cost. The reform programme com- 705 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 706 prises a range of reforms to help modernise the for Health and Children if her Department or health services to better meet the needs of properties under the control or administration patients. The reforms are designed to achieve a thereof has suffered any loss of assets through health service that provides high quality care, fire, theft or flooding in 2004, 2005, 2006 and to better value for money and improves health care date in 2007; the cost to the State of these losses; management. The structural aspects of the if action has been taken to recover these items, if Reform Programme emerged largely from the stolen; and the costs involved in their replace- recommendations in the Prospectus and Brennan ment, if necessary. [22990/07] commission reports and reflected Government decisions in relation to reforming the other areas Minister for Health and Children (Deputy outlined as Frameworks for Change. Mary Harney): The Office of Public Works is Under the Health Act 2004, the health boards, responsible for property in use by my Depart- Eastern Regional Health Authority and the area ment. In respect of such property, there has not health boards were abolished and all staff, been any loss of assets through fire, theft or powers, functions and resources were transferred flooding in the years referred to by the Deputy. to the HSE. The HSE is tasked with delivery of health and personal social services through a sin- 203. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister gle national structure. The Health Service Execu- for Health and Children if her Department has tive (HSE) is a unitary system, a single organis- entered into any leasing arrangements for proper- ation delivering health services nationwide. This ties for the use of her Department; the details of unitary system allows for clear accountability the lease; the level of occupancy of the buildings; structures and modern financial management and the use to which the buildings is currently systems to allow key decision makers in the being put. [23005/07] health service to link activities with budgets and thus to evaluate the effectiveness of their Minister for Health and Children (Deputy decisions. Mary Harney): The Office of Public Works is The HSE is undertaking the task of unifying responsible for the provision of property in use the formerly fragmented healthcare delivery into by my Department. My Department has there- a single unitary system. The HSE has recently fore not entered into any leasing arrangement for launched its Transformation Programme based such property. on six transformation priorities which include: • developing integrated services across all Health Services. stages of the care journey, 204. Deputy Joe Costello asked the Minister • configuring primary, community and con- for Health and Children if her attention has been tinuing care services to deliver optimal and drawn to the high costs being experienced by cost effective results pharmacists operating the methadone prog- • configuring hospital services to deliver ramme in the north inner city; and if she and the optimal and cost effective results Health Service Executive will engage in meaningful talks with the IPU on the issues involved; and • implementing a model to prevent and man- if she will make a statement on the matter. age chronic illness [23010/07] • implementing standards based performance measurement and management Minister for Health and Children (Deputy throughout the HSE Mary Harney): The question relates to the management and delivery of health and personal • ensuring all staff engage in transforming social services, which are the responsibility of the health and social care. Health Service Executive under the Health Act Some of these projects are already under way and 2004. Accordingly, my Department has requested most will have significant impact right across the the Parliamentary Affairs Division of the Execu- organisation and will alter the way the HSE itself tive to arrange to have this matter investigated is organised. Indeed, the HSE continues their dia- and to have a reply issued directly to the Deputy. logue with some unions regarding the final configuration of staffing structures. All projects will Court Proceedings. be subjected to rigorous ongoing assessment, however, it is too early in the process to be defini- 205. Deputy James Reilly asked the Minister tive regarding overall financial savings emerging for Health and Children the number of law suits to-date. her Department and the Health Service Execu- tive are in receipt of regarding the failure to provide adequate and timely assessment of chil- Departmental Properties. dren with autism, cervical cancer screening, bre- 202. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister ast cancer screening and other such services; and 707 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 708

[Deputy James Reilly.] Minister for Health and Children (Deputy if she will make a statement on the matter. Mary Harney): Operational responsibility for the [23011/07] management and delivery of health and personal social services is a matter for the Health Service Minister for Health and Children (Deputy Executive and funding for all health services has Mary Harney): My Department is a named been provided as part of its overall Vote. There- Respondent/Defendant in approximately 70 fore, the Executive is the appropriate body to ongoing High Court actions taken by parents of consider the particular issue raised by the children with Autism seeking to obtain specific Deputy. My Department has requested the educational and health related support services Parliamentary Affairs Division of the Executive for their children. to arrange to have the matter investigated and to Neither my Department nor the National have a reply issued directly to the Deputy. Cancer Screening Service has received notice of legal proceedings in relation to breast cancer Health Service Staff. screening or cervical cancer screening. I am com- 207. Deputy James Reilly asked the Minister mitted to ensuring that the BreastCheck and Irish for Health and Children the rules for short-listing Cervical Screening Programmes are rolled out candidates in regard to training schemes in psy- nationally as soon as possible. That is why I estab- chiatry; her Department’s policy on ageism at lished a National Cancer Screening Service in interviews for such courses; the reason that an January this year. This will maximise the expert- additional 10% credit for proficiency in Irish and ise in both programmes, ensure improved English and in accordance with the legitimate efficiency and develop a single governance model expectation in Administrative Circular 10/71 is for cancer screening. BreastCheck will commence apparently being disregarded by interviewing roll-out later this month and the Irish Cervical panels in the Health Service Executive western Screening Programme will commence roll-out in area; and if she will make a statement on the January 2008. matter. [23013/07] As the Deputy may be aware, my Department does not have responsibility in relation to the pro- Minister for Health and Children (Deputy vision of services to individuals. The Health Act Mary Harney): The Health Service Executive has 2004 provided for the creation of the Health responsibility for recruitment procedures with Service Executive (HSE) which was established regard to training schemes in psychiatry (other on 1 January 2005. Pursuant to the Act, the HSE than Senior Registrar training schemes which are has the responsibility to manage and deliver or run by the Irish Psychiatric Training Committee, arrange to be delivered on its behalf, health and Corrigan House, Fenian Street, Dublin 2). personal social services. This includes responsi- The Health Service Executive is the appropriate body to consider the matters raised by the bility for all health related supports. Accordingly Deputy. My Department has requested the as the HSE is a separate legal entity, my Depart- Parliamentary Affairs Division of the Executive ment has requested the Parliamentary Affairs to arrange to have the matters investigated and Division of the Executive to arrange to have this to have a reply issued directly to the Deputy. matter investigated and to have a reply issued The Department of Health and Children does directly to the Deputy. not have a specific policy relating to ageism at interviews for training programmes in psychiatry Services for People with Disabilities. or other specialties. However, training bodies and 206. Deputy James Reilly asked the Minister health employers are bound by the relevant statu- for Health and Children the progress her Depart- tory provisions in this regard, including the ment has made in implementing the recom- Employment Equality Acts 1998 to 2007, which mendations in the Pollock Report and in part- prohibit discrimination (with certain exemptions) icular the number of isolation rooms available for on nine grounds, including grounds of age. cystic fibrosis; her plans to provide more in the Vocational training and work experience are near future; the number of specialised nurses the aspects of employment covered by the Acts, and Health Service Executive has employed taking the Acts apply to vocational training bodies. into account the Pollock Report recommendations; her further plans to provide special- Medical Cards. ised home care staff and assistance for cystic 208. Deputy Paul Kehoe asked the Minister for fibrosis patients; if the extra funds allocated in Health and Children if she plans to increase the 2006 and 2007 of approximately \7 million have income limits for the medical card for persons in been used for the purpose they were allocated to; receipt of the new half rate carers allowance on and if she will make a statement on the top of another social welfare payment, so this matter. [23012/07] increase will not be used as means to refuse the 709 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 710 medical card; and if she will make a statement on Parliamentary Affairs Division of the Executive the matter. [23018/07] to arrange to have the matter investigated and to have a reply issued directly to the Deputy. Minister for Health and Children (Deputy Mary Harney): The assessment of eligibility to Cancer Screening Programme. medical cards is statutorily a matter for the Health Service Executive (HSE) and, with the 210. Deputy James Reilly asked the Minister exception of persons aged over 70 who have an for Health and Children the plans her Depart- automatic entitlement to a medical card, is deter- ment has for the mammogram unit and machine mined following an examination of the means of in Ennis Hospital; if it will be used in Ennis for the applicant and his/her dependants. Under cancer screening; and if she will make a statement Section 45 of the Health Act, 1970 medical cards on the matter. [23030/07] are provided for persons who, in the opinion of the HSE, are unable without undue hardship to Minister for Health and Children (Deputy arrange general practitioner medical and surgical Mary Harney): Operational responsibility for the services for themselves and their dependants. management and delivery of health and personal In assessing eligibility, the HSE uses guidelines social services is a matter for the Health Service based on people’s means, which includes their Executive and funding for all health services has income, certain allowable outgoings and the been provided as part of its overall vote. There- effect of other factors which may impact on fore, the Executive is the appropriate body to people’s ability to meet the cost of GP services. consider the particular questions raised by the There are also a number of income sources, Deputy. My Department has requested the including the Carer’s Allowance, which are dis- Parliamentary Affairs Division of the Executive regarded in assessing an applicant’s income. Fur- to have a reply issued directly to the Deputy in thermore, people whose sole source of income is relation to the matters raised. from social welfare or HSE allowances and benefits are allowed a medical card. Hospital Services. The existing assessment arrangements will not 211. Deputy James Reilly asked the Minister be affected by provisions announced in Budget for Health and Children if her Department in its 2007 whereby people in receipt of a social welfare regulatory role or the Health Service Executive payment, who are also providing full time care is in receipt or expects to receive law suits for and attention, will be able to retain their main damages arising out the debacle regarding testing welfare payment and receive another payment, for cancer at Barrington’s Hospital, taking into the maximum of which, depending on their account that the NTPF may have sent patients means, will be equivalent to a half rate Carer’s there and that she as sole shareholder in VHI also Allowance. facilitated patients to attend Barrington’s Hospital, and that her Department despite infor- Health Services. mation supplied 19 months ago on seven concerns 209. Deputy Andrew Doyle asked the Minister at the hospital failed to act on the information in for Health and Children the reason for the long a timely manner; and if she will make a statement waiting list of five months for outpatient physio- on the matter. [23031/07] therapy services for patients in the Bray, County Wicklow area; her views on whether unless Minister for Health and Children (Deputy patients are seen within a few weeks for physio- Mary Harney): My Department has not received therapy, the long-term effects of postponement of notice of legal proceedings in relation to the care treatment are deleterious to the health of the of breast cancer patients attending Barrington’s patient; and if she will assure the patients Hospital, Limerick. My Department has awaiting appointments in physiotherapy in this requested the Parliamentary Affairs Division of area of an improvement in the waiting list the Health Service Executive (HSE) to have a through public procurement processes if neces- reply issued directly to the Deputy in relation to sary. [23025/07] whether it has received notice of such proceedings. Minister for Health and Children (Deputy The National Treatment Purchase Fund does Mary Harney): Operational responsibility for the not refer breast cancer patients to Barrington’s management and delivery of health and personal Hospital. However, it does refer large numbers of social services is a matter for the Health Service patients there for the treatment of other con- Executive and funding for all health services has ditions and it has advised that it is entirely satis- been provided as part of its overall Vote. There- fied with the standard of care provided. fore, the Executive is the appropriate body to I have no function in relation to the selection consider the particular issue raised by the of health care providers by the VHI or any other Deputy. My Department has requested the provider of private health insurance. 711 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 712

Health Service Staff. Road Network. 212. Deputy James Bannon asked the Minister 215. Deputy James Bannon asked the Minister for Health and Children the location in the 2006 for Transport and the Marine his plans to com- Health Service Executive accounts where the pensate local authorities for the fact that the charge for agency staff is; the amount this item implementation of health and safety regulations cost in 2006 with a breakdown of the staff hired has eaten into the roadworks improvements from agencies in 2006 by type and numbers; and budget. [23016/07] if she will make a statement on the matter. [23073/07] Minister for Transport and the Marine (Deputy Noel Dempsey): Overall responsibility for local Minister for Health and Children (Deputy government finance is a matter for my colleague, Mary Harney): The 2006 Health Service Execu- the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and tive Annual Financial Statements submitted to Local Government. me do not provide detail in relation to charges In so far as roads are concerned, the improve- for agency staff. Accordingly, my Department has ment and maintenance of non-national roads in requested the Parliamentary Affairs Division of its area is a statutory function of each road auth- the Executive to arrange to have this matter ority in accordance with the provisions of Section investigated and to have a reply issued directly to 13 of the Roads Act, 1993. Accordingly, in the the Deputy. case of works on non-national roads, costs associated with the proper and safe management of Hospital Accommodation. such works are a matter for local authorities to be funded from their own resources sup- 213. Deputy Michael Ring asked the Minister plemented by State road grants provided by my for Health and Children when a bed will be pro- Department. vided in Galway for a person (details supplied) in My Department provides grants to local auth- County Mayo in order that they can commence orities for works on non-national roads under a their treatment. [23108/07] number of grant categories. The level of grants allocated to individual authorities is determined Minister for Health and Children (Deputy each year having regard to a number of factors Mary Harney): Operational responsibility for the including the total funds available in a particular management and delivery of health and personal year, eligibility criteria for the different grant social services was assigned to the Health Service schemes, road pavement conditions, length of Executive and funding for all health services has road network, the need to prioritise projects and been provided as part of its overall Vote. There- competing demands from other local authorities. fore, the Executive is the appropriate body to In determining the annual non-national road consider the particular case raised by the Deputy. grant allocations, the overall objective is to My Department has requested the Parliamentary resource each local authority appropriately in Affairs Division of the Executive to arrange to relation to their ongoing and special needs. have this case investigated and to have a reply All non-national road grants for 2007 have now issued directly to the Deputy. been committed and there are no additional funds at my disposal from which further grant 214. Deputy David Stanton asked the Minister allocations could be made at this time. Road for Health and Children the number of rehabili- grants for 2008 will be determined early in the tation beds for persons over 65 who have com- New Year. pleted acute treatment for stroke, fractures and Funding of works on national roads is a matter surgery and who need a period of non-acute for the National Roads Authority. rehabilitation; the locations of same; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [23115/07] Disabled Drivers. Minister of State at the Department of Health 216. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Minister for and Children (Deputy Ma´ire Hoctor): Oper- Transport and the Marine if a person (details ational responsibility for the management and supplied) in County Kildare is entitled to a dis- delivery of health and personal social services was abled sticker for their car; and if he will make a assigned to the Health Service Executive under statement on the matter. [23041/07] the Health Act 2004 and funding for all health services has been provided as part of its overall Minister for Transport and the Marine (Deputy vote. Therefore, the Executive is the appropriate Noel Dempsey): The Road Traffic (Traffic and body to consider the particular matter raised by Parking) Regulations, 1997 empower local auth- the Deputy. My Department has requested the orities, the Irish Wheelchair Association and the Parliamentary Affairs Division of the Executive Disabled Drivers Association, to grant a disabled to arrange to have the matter investigated and to person’s parking permit to a person who is suffer- have a reply issued directly to the Deputy ing from a disability that is of a nature that 713 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 714 prevents him or her from walking or causes The number of applications for exemptions undue hardship to the person in walking. Eligi- from the prohibition on the carriage of weapons bility is based on impaired mobility so a person and munitions of war and the number of appli- must be unable to walk i.e. is a wheelchair user cations refused in each year since 2000 are set out or, if mobile, is only able to walk with extreme in the table below. For security reasons, it is not difficulty. A person who has a disability affecting the practice to comment on any reasons given for his or her hand is not eligible under the 1997 refusal in any particular case unless the cargo is of scheme. a nature that its carriage is specifically prohibited under international law (e.g. the carriage of land- Services for People with Disabilities. mines is prohibited under the provisions of the Ottawa Convention). 217. Deputy Pat Rabbitte asked the Minister for Transport and the Marine if he will take the Year Number of Number of necessary steps to cause transport to be provided Applications Applications for a child (details supplied) in Dublin 24; and if Received Refused he will make a statement on the matter. [22940/07] 2000 19 None 2001 26 None Minister for Transport and the Marine (Deputy 2002 31 None Noel Dempsey): My responsibilities relate to Public Transport and not to individuals with 2003 904 5 (landmines) special transport needs. 2004 989 2 2005 1,492 None Road Safety. 2006 1,384 2 218. Deputy Fergus O’Dowd asked the Mini- 2007 (to date) 1,170 None ster for Transport and the Marine if he will introduce legislation requiring the compulsory usage of bicycle helmets; and if he will make a state- Road Safety. ment on the matter. [22952/07] 220. Deputy Chris Andrews asked the Minister Minister for Transport and the Marine (Deputy for Transport and the Marine when the safe Noel Dempsey): Under the Road Safety Auth- routes programme will be implemented; and if a ority Act 2006 (Conferral of Functions) Order school (details supplied) will be eligible for this scheme. [23067/07] 2006 (S.I. No 477 of 2006) this is now a matter for the Road Safety Authority. Minister for Transport and the Marine (Deputy Noel Dempsey): My Department has provided Air Services. funding to the Dublin Transportation Office who 219. Deputy Fergus O’Dowd asked the Mini- initiated the Safer Routes to School project in ster for Transport and the Marine the number of 2000, with 6 pilot schemes being implemented. applications for exemptions from the prohibition The objectives of the Green Schools Initiative are on the carriage of munitions on civilian aircraft to raise awareness of sustainable travel and trans- either landing or overflying this country for each port, increase the number of children who walk year since 2000; the number of such applications and cycle, increase the number of families who that have been refused; the reason given; and if ‘park and stride’ or ‘carpool’, improve safety on the school run by promoting safe practices and he will make a statement on the matter. awareness of hazards, reduce school-related con- [22953/07] gestion, and improve physical health and fitness. The programme was extended and currently has Minister for Transport and the Marine (Deputy 29 schools with a combined student population of Noel Dempsey): The carriage of weapons and approximately 10,400 with 545 teachers. Results munitions of war is prohibited under the Air from the initiative show that, of journeys to Navigation (Carriage of Munitions of War, Wea- school, between March and June 2006, walking pons and Dangerous Goods) Order, 1973, unless increased by 7% to 40%, and car use decreased an exemption from this prohibition is granted by by 8% to 46%, while, on the journey from school, the Minister for Transport. The Department of walking increased by 4% from 37% to 41% and Transport seeks the views of the Department of car use fell by 9%. A further roll-out of the prog- Foreign Affairs, the Department of Justice and ramme is being considered but the actual selec- the Irish Aviation Authority in relation to all tion of schools is a matter for the DTO. applications for an exemption from this prohibition. If any of these bodies objects, an exemption Rural Transport Services. will not be granted. A copy of the application is also sent to the Department of Defence for 221. Deputy James Bannon asked the Minister information. for Transport and the Marine the plans in place to improve the quality of rural transport in 715 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 716

[Deputy James Bannon.] 2007. I believe that this Summit will be timely and County Westmeath with particular reference to important for strengthening Europe’s overall bus services for the elderly to access hospitals and relationship with Africa and reaffirming our tra- other services; and if he will make a statement on dition of mutual engagement. The EU and Africa the matter. [23072/07] share an interest in working together to tackle the full spectrum of global challenges, including Minister for Transport and the Marine (Deputy achieving the Millennium Development Goals, Noel Dempsey): Under the Rural Transport peace and security, human rights, migration, the Programme, initiatives to expand and develop environment, energy and trade. There are also rural transport services are a matter for local specific country situations on which we share communities, in consultation with Pobal. Com- common concerns. The preparation of a Joint munity groups in County Westmeath seeking to EU-Africa Strategy which will be adopted at the establish a scheme should make contact with Lisbon Summit this December gives us an oppor- Pobal at Holbrook House, Holles Street, Dublin tunity to define together how we can co-operate 2. on these issues going forward. The EU and the African Union will have to work together to find Public Transport. a formula for Zimbabwe’s representation at the Lisbon Summit. The question of how the 222. Deputy Brian O’Shea asked the Minister situation in Zimbabwe might be addressed at the for Transport and the Marine further to Summit is also under consideration. Parliamentary Question No. 286 of 2 October 2007, the modes of transport other then airport Ireland believes that it would be better if Pres- transport which adequately serve the ident Mugabe did not attend the Summit, and we Waterford/Dublin route; and if he will make a have urged the Portuguese Presidency to explore statement on the matter. [23163/07] creatively all other options for Zimbabwean representation. For example, at EU-ASEAN Minister for Transport and the Marine (Deputy (Association of South East Asian Nations) Sum- Noel Dempsey): Public transport services mits, Burma/Myanmar has been represented by between Dublin and Waterford are currently pro- its Foreign Minister, although representation at vided by Iarnrod E´ ireann which operates 6 return Summits is usually at Head of State or Govern- train services per day; Bus E´ ireann which ment level. However, I am aware that many operates 14 services, Monday to Saturday from African countries feel strongly on this issue. Like- Waterford to Dublin and 9 services on Sundays wise, many EU Member States do not wish the and 14 services from Dublin to Waterford, Mon- EU’s relations with an entire continent to be held day to Saturday and 11 services on Sundays and hostage to one country’s problems. Invitations to licensed bus operators which provide 11 return the EU-Africa Summit have not yet been issued, services per day. and until all avenues have been explored it would be premature to comment further on how the issue will unfold. Foreign Conflicts. Partnership with Africa is a priority for the 223. Deputy Joe Costello asked the Minister Government and a focus of Ireland’s foreign for Foreign Affairs if he will oppose the Portug- policy. This, as well as our deep concern about uese Presidency inviting President Robert the sit Partnership with Africa is a priority for Mugabe to the proposed African Summit; if he the Government and a focus of Ireland’s foreign will attend or be represented in the event of the policy. This, as well as our deep concern about Zimbabwean President attending; and if he will the situation in Zimbabwe, will be fully weighed make a statement on the matter. [22917/07] when the time comes to decide at what level to attend the Summit. Minister for Foreign Affairs (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I continue to be gravely concerned at the Diplomatic Representation. ongoing deterioration in the situation in Zimbabwe. The dire situation gives added 224. Deputy Pa´draic McCormack asked the urgency to the efforts being made by President Minister for Foreign Affairs if the Government Mbeki of South Africa and the Southern Africa have plans for the establishment of an embassy in Development Community (SADC) to broker a Thailand in view of the number of Irish citizens political accommodation between the parties and living and visiting the country. [22973/07] an economic rescue plan which will respond to the catastrophic current situation. We strongly Minister for Foreign Affairs (Deputy Dermot support President Mbeki’s efforts. I believe that Ahern): The opening of further resident diplo- Zimbabwe’s neighbours are best placed to keep matic missions abroad, including in Thailand, is up the necessary pressure on President Mugabe’s considered by the Government on an ongoing government to alter the failed policies which have basis. However, any expansion of our overseas brought economic collapse and misery to its network can only be undertaken on the basis of people. clear priorities. The current position is that our Ireland supports and looks forward to the EU- Ambassador to Malaysia is also accredited to Africa Summit in Lisbon from 8-9 December Thailand on a non-resident basis, and there are 717 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 718 no plans at present to change this arrangement. Ireland to the European Union in Brussels. The Ireland’s Honorary Consul in Bangkok, Mr Gary remedial costs were shared between the lessor Biesty, continues to provide an excellent service and the Permanent Representation and the net to our citizens who live in or visit Thailand. In amount paid by the latter was \43,268. In June addition, following a review of our representation 2004 an individual, who had been working on after the Tsunami and as part of my commitment contract in the Department of Foreign Affairs, to strengthen the range of assistance we provide received a four year suspended sentence for the to Irish citizens in the region, I appointed Ms theft of eight laptop computers. The estimated Helene Fallon-Wood as our first Honorary Con- value of the computers amounted to \14,800. sul in Phuket in February 2006. Her presence proved invaluable in assisting those Irish citizens 226. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister involved in the recent plane crash on that island. for Foreign Affairs if his Department has entered into any leasing arrangements for properties for Departmental Properties. the use of his Department; the details of the lease; the level of occupancy of the buildings; and 225. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister the use to which the buildings is currently being for Foreign Affairs if his Department or proper- put. [23004/07] ties under the control or administration thereof has suffered any loss of assets through fire, theft Minister for Foreign Affairs (Deputy Dermot or flooding in 2004, 2005, 2006 and to date in Ahern): The Department’s headquarters, Iveagh 2007; the cost to the State of these losses; if action House, is owned by the State. All of the other has been taken to recover these items, if stolen; properties used by the Department in the State and the costs involved in their replacement, if are leased. With one exception, these properties necessary. [22989/07] are leased by the Office of Public Works on behalf of the Department. The one property Minister for Foreign Affairs (Deputy Dermot directly leased by the Department is Hospitality Ahern): In 2004, a fire occurred in the temporary House in South Cumberland Street and the rel- residence of the Permanent Representative of evant details are as follows:

Premises Level of Occupancy — Owners Rent Level Terms of Lease Current Use

Part Floor, Hospitality All space is currently in AIB Custodial \144,900 per annum Expires 2015; rent House, South use by staff of the Nominees Ltd. reviews provided for Cumberland Street, Passport Office for at 5 year intervals Dublin 2. training purposes.

All our buildings are fully occupied and are used • Promoting cross-community and interde- for purposes for which the Minister, the Ministers nominational activities of State and the Department have responsibility. • Promotion of tolerance and acceptance of Finally, though the Department owns thirty-four cultural diversity properties overseas, the majority of its premises abroad are leased. • Academic research aimed at promoting reconciliation Reconciliation Projects. • Contribution to political reconciliation. 227. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Minister All applications to the Fund are reviewed by an for Foreign Affairs the criteria set out by the Advisory Committee established for this specific interdepartmental committee on the reconcili- purpose. The Committee meets three to four ation fund for eligibility for finance allocation for times a year and comprises representatives from property development; the extent of funds allo- the Department of the Taoiseach, the Depart- cated to date; the extent of funding available for ment of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the allocation; and if he will make a statement on the Department of Education and Science and the matter. [23101/07] Department of Foreign Affairs. Recommendations for funding by the Advisory Minister for Foreign Affairs (Deputy Dermot Ahern): The eligibility criteria as listed in the Committee are made to the Minister for Foreign guidelines to the Fund are: Affairs after consideration of the following: • Reconciliation through education, courses, • The strength of the reconciliation elements dialogue and culture in the application • Developing and maintaining cross-Border • The track record of the organisation links concerned • Promoting improved Anglo-Irish relations • The level of funding available 719 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 720

[Deputy Dermot Ahern.] for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the The overriding aim is to ensure a widespread and reason a small business owner (details supplied) equitable distribution of the Fund based on the in County Longford is being forced to join a spec- merit of the individual proposals. A particular ific pension scheme rather than being free to shop consideration is to assist small organisations around. [23070/07] involved with peace work on the ground. As the Fund has limited resources available, applications Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employ- for property purchase or development would not ment (Deputy Michea´l Martin): The issue raised usually tend to be approved. relates to pensions which is a matter for my col- The Estimates provided a sum of \3m under league, the Minister for Social and Family subhead F1 on my Department’s Vote for 2007. Affairs. I have no direct function in this matter. As of 8 October, a total of \1,066,778 has been charged to this subhead. Further moneys have Swimming Pool Projects. also been committed and will be drawn on supply 231. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the of the relevant documentation by applicants. The Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism the progress Committee will meet again before the end of this to date in regard to the provision of the proposed month to consider applications received to date public swimming pool at Leixlip, County Kildare; and further grants will be announced by me and if he will make a statement on the matter. before the end of the year. [23148/07]

Departmental Properties. Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Deputy 228. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister Seámus Brennan): The current round of the for Enterprise, Trade and Employment if his Local Authority Swimming Pool Programme was Department or properties under the control or closed to applications on 31 July 2000 and no administration thereof has suffered any loss of application was made in respect of a public swim- assets through fire, theft or flooding in 2004, 2005, ming pool for Leixlip before that date. 2006 and to date in 2007; the cost to the State of My Department is completing an Expenditure these losses; if action has been taken to recover Review of the Local Authority Swimming Pool these items, if stolen; and the costs involved in Programme at present. The Review is examining, their replacement, if necessary. [22986/07] among other things, how the programme has worked to date and what changes, if any, are Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employ- required to ensure its effective and efficient deliv- ment (Deputy Michea´l Martin): My Depart- ery. The Review is currently being finalised and ment’s Asset Register records and monitors all following consideration of any recommendations assets purchased and owned by the Department. in the review it is my intention to launch a new In addition, the Asset Register monitors the round of the Local Authority Swimming Pool value of all assets worth over \1,000 each. No Programme. When the Programme is re-opened, asset with a value over \1,000 or any of the it will be open to all local authorities to submit properties under the control of my Department applications under the terms that will apply. have suffered any loss through fire, theft or flooding in the past four years. Arts Council. 232. Deputy Olivia Mitchell asked the Minister 229. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism if he will respond to for Enterprise, Trade and Employment if his the many requests from the arts bodies for Department has entered into any leasing arrange- increased funding to implement the Arts ments for properties for the use of his Depart- Council’s Government endorsed plan Partnership ment; the details of the lease; the level of occu- for the Arts 2006 to 2008; and if he will make a pancy of the buildings; and the use to which the statement on the matter. [22907/07] buildings is currently being put. [23001/07] Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Deputy Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employ- Seámus Brennan): As Minister for Arts, Sport ment (Deputy Michea´l Martin): My Department and Tourism I am committed to securing the best has not entered into any leasing arrangements for possible funding for the Arts Council and the arts properties for use by my Department. All build- sector generally. The Arts Council’s funding ings occupied by the Department are leased by requirement for the year ahead will be addressed the Office of Public Works and all issues concern- in the context of the 2008 Estimates. In doing so, ing the details of leases and the level of occu- the Government must balance competing pancy of buildings are the responsibility of that demands from every part of our economy and Office. society. The Arts Council strategy Partnership for the Arts sets out a programme of work aimed at Pension Provisions. bringing the arts sector to a level of stability and 230. Deputy James Bannon asked the Minister sustainability. The total cost of implementing the 721 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 722 strategy in full is estimated at \272m over three Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Deputy years and my Department has been working Seámus Brennan): The Office of Public Works towards providing the funding required for full enters into leasing arrangements on behalf of my implementation of the strategy. To date (since Department in respect of all properties in use by 2005) the Department has provided funding of my Department. \162.3m. Funding for the Arts Council has increased Participation in Sport. from \47.67 million in 2002 to \80 million in 2007 — an increase of almost 68%. These are signifi- 235. Deputy Chris Andrews asked the Minister cant amounts of money in any context. This fund- for Arts, Sport and Tourism the definition being ing has transformed the arts, increasing access to used for sport in the Programme for Government and participation in the arts, and has provided an which states that only 10% of women are engaged excellent platform for future development. My in sport; and when the council for female partici- policy on the arts is to promote and strengthen pation in sport will be established. [23066/07] the arts in all its forms, increase access to and participation in the arts and make the arts an Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Deputy integral and valued part of our national life. Seámus Brennan): Under the Irish Sports Council The table below shows the funding provided to Act 1999, competitive sport is defined as “all the Arts Council between 1997 and 2007. forms of physical activity which, through organised participation, aim at expressing or improving Year Funding % Supplementary Total including physical fitness and at obtaining improved results (\m) Change Estimate Supplementary in competition at all levels” and recreational sport is defined as “all forms of physical activity 1997 26.41 26.41 which, through casual or regular participation, 1998 33.14 25.5 33.14 aim at expressing or improving physical fitness 1999 35.55 7.3 35.55 and mental well-being and at forming social 2000 45.08 26.8 45.08 relationships”. 2001 46.37 2.9 1.77 48.14 ESRI research commissioned by the Irish 2002 47.67 2.8 47.67 Sports Council highlighted the fact that only a 2003 44.10 −7.5 44.10 small minority of women in Ireland — less than 2004 52.5 19.0 2.00 54.50 one in five — came close to the levels of physical activity deemed to constitute the minimum neces- 2005 61.00 16.2 5.23 66.23 sary for good health by the World Health Organ- 2006 72.31 18.5 10.00 82.31 isation. That is, an accumulated 30 minutes of 2007 80.0 10.6 80.00 physical activity per day for at least five days per week. The research highlighted that more than three quarters of women do some recreational Departmental Properties. physical activity (principally walking, swimming or aerobics) but the majority do so with insuf- 233. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister ficient regularity or intensity of effort to meet the for Arts, Sport and Tourism if his Department minimum standard. or properties under the control or administration thereof has suffered any loss of assets through In order to address this problem, the Women fire, theft or flooding in 2004, 2005, 2006 and to in Sport programme has received significant date in 2007; the cost to the State of these losses; Government funding since it was launched in if action has been taken to recover these items, if 2005. Through the Women in Sport programme, stolen; and the costs involved in their replace- this Government supports the work of the Irish ment, if necessary. [22981/07] Sports Council in encouraging women — young and old alike — to become involved in sport as Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Deputy participants, players, officials and administrators. Seámus Brennan): I am not aware of any loss of In relation to Forum on Female Participation assets in my Department’s offices through fire or in Sport, which is provided for in the Programme flooding during the period for which the Deputy for Government, my Department will be liaising requested information. One laptop to the value with the Irish Sports Council on this matter. of \1135 went missing in 2006. The loss was reported to the police who investigated the Pension Provisions. matter but the item was not recovered. 236. Deputy Richard Bruton asked the Mini- ster for Social and Family Affairs if his attention 234. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister has been drawn to the complaint that AVCs are for Arts, Sport and Tourism if his Department sold to public servants without a clear comparison has entered into any leasing arrangements for of the relative benefits of opting to buy back properties for the use of his Department; the national years of service; and if he or the agencies details of the lease; the level of occupancy of the who monitor pension issues would consider buildings; and the use to which the buildings is developing codes of practice that would ensure currently being put. [22996/07] 723 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 724

[Deputy Richard Bruton.] is \331.30 and that of a couple is \353.30 whereas better information in the hands of public service in other social welfare payments the income limit workers when they make decisions regarding for couples and single parents are similar. additional pension cover. [22909/07] [23026/07]

Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy Martin Cullen): The Pensions Board has Martin Cullen): The back to school clothing and responsibility under the Pensions Act to monitor footwear allowance (BSCFA) scheme provides a and supervise the operation of pension schemes. one-off payment to assist eligible families with The Pensions Act includes provision for the dis- the extra costs when their children start school closure of a range of information to scheme each autumn. The allowance is not intended to members in relation to pension benefits. The meet the full cost of school clothing and footwear issues in this case relate to the sale of financial but only to provide assistance towards these costs. products, which is regulated by the Financial Lone parents or couples may qualify for payment Regulator, who comes under the aegis of the of an allowance if they are in receipt of a social Department for Finance. welfare payment or Health Service Executive (HSE) payment; are participating in an approved Departmental Properties. employment scheme or attending a recognised education and training course; and have house- 237. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister hold income at or below certain set levels. for Social and Family Affairs if his Department Different income limits apply for single parents or properties under the control or administration and couples across different social welfare thereof has suffered any loss of assets through schemes, for example in the BSCFA and Fuel fire, theft or flooding in 2004, 2005, 2006 and to Allowance schemes. The rationale for the differ- date in 2007; the cost to the State of these losses; ent income limits for lone parents and couples is if action has been taken to recover these items, if to take account of the fact that there is an extra stolen; and the costs involved in their replace- adult in the couple household who has to be pro- ment, if necessary. [22992/07] vided for, and the income limit for couples Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy reflects this. Martin Cullen): The information requested is cur- The income limits for the BSCFA scheme for rently being compiled within my Department and 2007 are based on the maximum rate of State Pension (contributory) (under 80), plus the quali- will be made available to the Deputy as soon as \ possible. fied adult allowance, plus 100 in the case of married and cohabiting couples; and the maximum rate of widow’s/widower’s contributory pension 238. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister \ for Social and Family Affairs if his Department (under 80) plus 100 for Lone Parents, plus child has entered into any leasing arrangements for dependant allowance in each case. Income Limits properties for the use of his Department; the for 2007 are: details of the lease; the level of occupancy of the buildings; and the use to which the buildings is Couple Lone Parent currently being put. [23007/07] \\

Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy 1 child 470.80 331.30 Martin Cullen): My Department has not entered 2 children 492.80 353.30 into any leasing arrangements for properties for 3 children 514.80 375.30 its use. This responsibility is vested in the Office 4 children 536.80* 397.30* of Public Works. The office accommodation currently used by my Department includes: 13 Head- *The limit is increased by \22.00 for each additional child. quarter buildings in Dublin (3 of which are used Any changes to the current income limits for the by agencies of the Department); 7 Decentralised back to school clothing and footwear allowance Offices (two in Sligo and one each in Longford, scheme would have cost implications and would Letterkenny, Waterford, Dundalk and Carrick- have to be considered in a budget context and on-Shannon; 135 regional and Local offices in the light of the resources available to me for throughout the country. All of these buildings are improvements in social welfare generally. fully occupied and are currently used for the administration of my Department’s schemes and services. Pension Provisions. 240. Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall asked the Minister Social Welfare Benefits. for Social and Family Affairs the amount spent by his Department on add-on cash benefits and 239. Deputy Andrew Doyle asked the Minister non-cash benefits to persons of pension age in for Social and Family Affairs the reason the each of the years this century with a breakdown income limit for a single parent applying for the by benefit type and the number of recipients; and back to school clothing and footwear allowance the number of people at pension age receiving 725 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 726 any welfare payment from his Department in which comprises the electricity, natural gas allow- each of these years. [23109/07] ance, telephone allowance and free television licence are non-cash benefits available to pen- Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy sioners living permanently in the State who Martin Cullen): Due to the level of detail satisfy specific qualifying conditions. The scheme required it has not been possible to collate the is also available to customers under age 66 years information in the limited time available. The who satisfy the conditions of the scheme. There data requested is currently being prepared and are currently some 350,000 customers in receipt will be forwarded directly to the Deputy when it of the household benefits scheme at an annual becomes available. cost of \315 million, of which some 285,000 of these customers are aged 66 years and over. 241. Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall asked the Minister The free travel scheme is also a non-cash for Social and Family Affairs the average or typi- benefit which permits some 600,000 customers, of cal equivalent monetary value received by pensioner households in each of the years this cen- which 450,000 are aged over 66 years, to travel free on a range of transport services at an annual tury for each of the non-cash benefits available to \ certain households of people of pension age; the cost of 64 million. The monetary value of the equivalent monetary value in each of these years electricity allowance, natural gas allowance, tele- and for each of these benefits for a pensioner who phone allowance and free travel pass to an indi- was maximising their benefit; and if he will make vidual customer depends on usage and may vary a statement on the matter. [23111/07] from customer to customer. The monetary values of each of the com- Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy ponents of the household benefits on 1st January Martin Cullen): The household benefits package, 2000-2007 are as follows:

Year Electricity Electricity Natural Gas Telephone Free TV Licence Allowance (Urban) Allowance (Rural) Allowance Allowance

\\\\\

Jan 2000 165.00 169.00 173.00 226.00 89.00 Jan 2001 165.00 169.00 173.00 226.00 89.00 Jan 2002 168.00 173.00 205.00 260.00 107.00 Jan 2003 274.00 305.00 205.00 281.00 150.00 Jan 2004 294.00 327.00 225.00 296.00 152.00 Jan 2005 339.00 381.00 250.00 296.00 152.00 Jan 2006 345.00 386.00 313.00 296.00 155.00 Jan 2007 490.00 523.00 490.00 *296.00 158.00 *My Department increased the value of the telephone allowance in line with industry price increase effective from August 2007 to \311.00 per annum.

For accounting purposes within my Department, 242. Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall asked the Minister the average value of a free travel pass is calcu- for Social and Family Affairs the cost of adminis- lated using the total number of recipients at year tering the State contributory pension; the pro- end and the overall cost of the scheme in an indi- portion this represents of the total value of the vidual year. Based on this method of calculation scheme; and if he will make a statement on the the average values of a free travel pass since 2000 matter. [23112/07] is as follows: Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy Year Average Value of Free Martin Cullen): Most of the administrative Travel Pass expenditure incurred by my Department is not brought to account on a scheme specific basis. In \ many cases, services are shared between several scheme areas. Accordingly, it is not possible to 2000 77.00 identify all the costs associated with adminis- 2001 75.00 tering the State contributory scheme. 2002 72.00 The further development of systems to support 2003 82.00 the Management Information Framework and 2004 84.00 the Annual Output Statement should facilitate the development of accounting arrangements, 2005 87.00 over time, which will enable expenditure to be 2006 92.00 linked more closely to services. Estimated expen- 2007 105.00 diture for my Department in 2007 is nearly \15,335 million of which administrative expendi- 727 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 728

[Deputy Martin Cullen.] tury on welfare payments to pensioners broken ture from Vote 38 and the Social Insurance Fund down by year, and by pension type and the amounts to around \467.85 million. This rep- absolute number of recipients by pension type resents 3% of total estimated expenditure. and by year in each case. [23136/07] Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy 243. Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall asked the Minister Martin Cullen): The information required by the for Social and Family Affairs the amount spent Deputy is contained within the following tabular by his Department in each of the years this cen- statement:

Table 1. Expenditure on Schemes Providing for People of Pension Age, 2000-2006 (\000)

2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006

State Pension Contributory 577,365 716,474 868,529 946,902 1,050,348 1,152,849 1,293,702 State Pension Transition 594,239 697,349 803,413 898,981 983,706 1,060,052 1,144,636 State Pension Non-con 456,230 490,718 537,308 565,006 599,988 631,299 727,767 Widow’s Pension Contributory 597,473 672,959 761,539 826,135 906,449 998,524 1,094,969 Widow’s Pension Non-con 94,377 107,164 116,493 116,834 122,300 126,944 103,684 Invalidity Pension* 311,511 354,459 403,617 440,263 487,375 548,285 602,421 Carer’s Allowance* 99,561 130,325 160,042 183,273 210,277 223,059 284,574 Carer’s Benefit* 36 2,457 5,807 6,943 7,698 9,588 16,681 Blind Pension* 12,302 13,156 14,221 14,816 15,868 16,661 16,963 Death Benefit* 4,704 5,054 5,558 5,813 6,185 6,523 7,047 *These schemes provide for people of working age and pension age. It is not possible to provide a breakdown of the total expenditure into the two segments.

Table 2. Number of Recipients of Schemes Providing for People of Pension Age, 2000-2006

2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006

State Pension Contributory 86,217 94,871 105,295 113,970 118,383 124,611 139,724 State Pension Transition 78,370 80,326 83,055 86,509 88,870 91,047 91,086 State Pension Non-con 90,652 89,061 87,823 86,733 85,172 84,454 97,404 Widow’s Pension Contributory 100,374 101,267 102,494 103,831 105,338 109,017 110,146 Widow’s Pension Non-con 17,367 16,811 16,318 15,783 15,284 14,729 2,168 Invalidity Pension** 48,663 50,615 52,147 53,414 55,864 58,352 51,954 Carer’s Allowance** 16,478 18,785 20,395 21,316 23,030 24,970 27,474 Carer’s Benefit** 50 425 615 639 679 867 1,647 Blind Pension** 2,229 2,125 2,095 2,061 2,027 1,985 1,476 Death Benefit** 665 676 668 664 652 647 646 ** These schemes provide for people of working age and pension age. The numbers of people of pension age on these schemes are shown in the table below.

Table 3. Numbers of Recipients of non Age-related Schemes who are of Pension Age, 2000-2006

2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006

Invalidity Pension 4,845 6,194 6,834 7,647 9,276 10,995 9,596 Carer’s Allowance 1,839 2,137 2,403 2,657 2,870 2,949 4,150 Carer’s Benefit 02230412 Blind Pension 655 630 590 561 524 525 47 Death Benefit 309 332 324 328 332 332 355

Social Welfare Appeals. supplied) in County Kildare; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23142/07] 244. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the position of an Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy appeal in relation to supplementary welfare Martin Cullen): The supplementary welfare allowance payments by a person (details 729 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 730 allowance scheme (SWA) is administered on my house alarms and I have no plans at present to behalf by the Community Welfare division of the extend the Scheme. Health Service Executive (HSE). Apart from a number of excluded categories, Community Development. anyone in the State who satisfies a means test, 246. Deputy Michael Creed asked the Minister has applied for any other benefit or allowances, for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs if has registered for work with FA´ S if they are of funding is available from his Department for all working age and satisfies a habitual residency test schools wishing to install flashing amber lights on may qualify for basic SWA. Under the legislation the roads immediately outside the schools; and if a number of categories are specifically excluded he will make a statement on the matter. from receiving assistance. These are people in [22913/07] full-time work, people in full-time education and people involved in trade disputes. Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht The Dublin/Mid-Leinster Area of the HSE has Affairs (Deputy E´ amon O´ Cuı´v): Under the advised that the person concerned was refused CLA´ R Programme, my Department provides basic SWA in June 2007 as he failed, at the time, 100% funding specifically for flashing amber to provide credible evidence that he satisfied the safety lights at all primary schools in CLA´ R areas habitual residence condition and also because he that do not already have such lights. The Local was unable to provide evidence of his sources of Authority selects the projects and has responsi- income. The person concerned appealed the bility for the administration of this scheme. decision to the designated appeals officer of the Executive in July 2007. His appeal was allowed in Grant Payments. August 2007 subject to the provision of additional relevant information that would enable the 247. Deputy Kathleen Lynch asked the Mini- Executive to make a decision regarding his ster for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs application. the reason for the delay in a paying down moneys The Community Welfare division of the Execu- to a group (details supplied) in County Cork; his tive wrote to the person concerned in September views on whether by paying this money in instal- 2007 requesting the provision of additional infor- ments, it creates extra costs to the scheme; when mation in order to examine his application. To they can expect to draw down the balance of the date the Executive has not received a reply. DAF grant; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22934/07] Security of the Elderly. Minister of State at the Department of Com- 245. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Minister for munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Deputy Pat Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs the Carey): I refer the Deputy to my reply to Ques- grants he or his Department have to allow per- tion No. 199 of 3 October, 2007. sons in receipt of the State pension to purchase house alarms; if he or his Department have plans Departmental Properties. to introduce such grants; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23042/07] 248. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs if 249. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Minister for his Department or properties under the control Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs the or administration thereof has suffered any loss of grants he or his Department have to allow per- assets through fire, theft or flooding in 2004, 2005, sons in receipt of the State pension to purchase 2006 and to date in 2007; the cost to the State of house alarms; the plans he or his Department these losses; if action has been taken to recover have to introduce such a scheme; and if he will these items, if stolen; and the costs involved in make a statement on the matter. [23040/07] their replacement, if necessary. [22983/07]

Minister of State at the Department of Com- Minister of State at the Department of Com- munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Deputy Pat munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Deputy Pat Carey): I propose to take Questions Nos. 245 and Carey): My Department has suffered no loss of 249 together. assets through fire, theft or flooding in 2004, 2005, 2006 and to date in 2007. My Department manages the Scheme of Com- munity Support for Older People, which assists Question No. 249 answered with Question qualifying older people, aged 65 years and older, No. 245. by means of a community-based grant scheme. This provides funding towards the once-off cost Genetically Modified Organisms. of installing socially monitored alarm systems, door locks, window locks, door chains, security 250. Deputy Michael Creed asked the Minister lighting, smoke alarms and interior emergency for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the geneti- lighting for qualifying older people living on our cally modified crops grown here; and if she will offshore islands. The Scheme does not cover make a statement on the matter. [22901/07] 731 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 732

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Mary Coughlan): There are no geneti- (Deputy Mary Coughlan): The position is that the cally modified crops grown in Ireland. EU Regulations governing the transfer of Single Payment entitlements provide that the Member Pigmeat Sector and Poultry Industry. State may apply a claw-back in respect of entitlements sold with or without land in order to 251. Deputy Michael Creed asked the Minister replenish the National Reserve. The claw-back for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if she will arrangements are non-mandatory. Claw-back meet with multiples operating in the Irish retail arrangements were applied in respect of entitle- industry to emphasise the urgency of the situation ments sold in 2006 and 2007 with a maximum rate facing pig and poultry producers here and the of 30% claw-back in 2006 reduced to 15% in need to ensure they get a higher price for their 2007. produce. [22902/07] The total amount of money raised through claw-back proved negligible and did not justify Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the amount and cost of administration associated (Deputy Mary Coughlan): I am fully aware of the with the process. Therefore having consulted with issues facing the pig sector at present particurlary the Single Payment Advisory Committee com- those concerning high feed prices. I met recently prising members of the farming organizations, with representatives of the sector at which meet- Teagasc and my Department, I decided earlier ing this issue was discussed. this year to abolish the claw-back on the sale of While I appreciate the argument for increased Single Payment entitlements. As a result, entitle- pigmeat prices to compensate for higher input ments traded with or without land from 2008 will costs, the Deputy will be aware that I do not have no longer be subject to claw-back. a role in price setting. I am glad to see, however, This will have the effect of simplifying the pro- that the recent trend in Irish producer prices is cess of transferring entitlements for farmers and upwards with an increase of 7% in the past administrators alike. couple of months. The issue of labelling of pigmeat was also dis- 254. Deputy Seymour Crawford asked the cussed at the meeting.The situation on this is that Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food draft legislation is currently with the Department when a person (details supplied) in County of Health and Children which will require the Monaghan will receive the balance of single pay- origin of pig, poultry and sheepmeat to be shown ment due to them from 2006; if she will have pay- on its label. A public consultation on this pro- ment made or an explanation as to the reason it posal is currently taking place on the website of is being held up; and if she will make a statement the Food Safety Authority of Ireland after which on the matter. [22969/07] it will be necessary to seek the approval of the European Commission. Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food I have also asked Bord Bia to intensify its aut- (Deputy Mary Coughlan): The position is that the umn pork and bacon campaign. person named submitted three applications to transfer entitlements in 2006, two of which Fisheries Industry. involved transferring in leased entitlements and 252. Deputy Michael Creed asked the Minister the third involved transferring the original for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the entitlements established for him into a Milk Part- responsibilities her Department has assumed for nership arrangement. the fisheries industry. [22912/07] All applications have been fully processed and full payment on 73.72 entitlements for 2006 has Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food issued to the person named. The final payment (Deputy Mary Coughlan): In line with a recent issued on 6th February 2007. Government decision, my Department will assume responsibility for Sea Fisheries, Aquacul- 255. Deputy Seymour Crawford asked the ture, Marine Engineering, Marine Research, Pier Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and Harbour Development and Foreshore so far when a person (details supplied) in County as that relates to Fisheries and Aquaculture. Monaghan will be awarded their area aid; if there Arrangements to give effect to this are in train is a problem with the application; and if she will and the functions in question will transfer for- make a statement on the matter. [22970/07] mally to my Department shortly. Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Mary Coughlan): An application under Grant Payments. the 2007 Single Payment Scheme/Disadvantaged 253. Deputy Seamus Kirk asked the Minister Area Scheme was received from the person for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the position named on 2 May 2007. Payments under the 2007 regarding the clawback provision where single Disadvantaged Areas Scheme commenced on 21 farm payment entitlements are traded; and if she September, with payments issuing to all appli- will make a statement on the matter. [22967/07] cants whose applications were clear on that date. 733 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 734

Payments continue to issue as individual cases are gory as leased land was not eligible under this confirmed eligible for payment. Payment in full category in 2005. issued to the person named on 9 October, for an The person named submitted an appeal against amount of \2,287.44. this decision. This appeal was forwarded to the The person named does not hold any Entitle- Independent Single Payments Appeals Commit- ments under the Single Payment Scheme and, tee who have completed their review and they therefore, no payment is due to him. have upheld my Department’s decision. A letter outlining the decision of the Committee has 256. Deputy Seymour Crawford asked the issued to the person named. Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the The person named also submitted an appli- reason a person (details supplied) in County cation for an allocation of entitlements from the Cavan has never had payments made to them 2006 Single Payment Scheme National Reserve regarding single premium transferred after their under Category B. fathers death; her views on whether two years is Category B in the 2006 National Reserve caters a long time to do without payments; and if she for farmers who commenced farming after 31 will make every effort to have this issue sorted December, 2002 or who commenced farming in out. [22971/07] 2002 but who received no direct payments in respect of that scheme year. Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food The person named has been deemed eligible (Deputy Mary Coughlan): The position is that the under this category. A letter outlining my Depart- person named did not submit an application for ments decision issued on 18th September, 2007 the transfer of single payment entitlements from and the relevant payment has now been made. his father as his father did not establish any entitlements during the reference period 2000- Departmental Properties. 2002. The person named did however submit an 257. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister application for an allocation of entitlements from for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if her Depart- the 2005 and 2006 Single Payment Scheme ment or properties under the control or admini- National Reserve. stration thereof has suffered any loss of assets As indicated in reply to a previous question through fire, theft or flooding in 2004, 2005, 2006 from the Deputy, the person named submitted an and to date in 2007; the cost to the State of these application for an allocation of entitlements from losses; if action has been taken to recover these the 2005 Single Payment Scheme National items, if stolen; and the costs involved in their Reserve under Categories A, B and D. replacement, if necessary. [22980/07] Category A caters for farmers who inherited land or received land free of charge or for a nomi- Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food nal sum from a farmer who had retired or died (Deputy Mary Coughlan): During the years 2004, by 16 May, 2005 and who had leased out his/her 2005, 2006 and to date in 2007, my Department holding to a third party during the reference has not suffered any premature retirement of period 2000 to 2002. The person named was assets due to any of the specified occurrences. deemed unsuccessful under this category as the leased land was not acquired free of charge or for 258. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister a nominal fee. for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if her Depart- Category B caters for farmers who made an ment has entered into any leasing arrangements investment in production capacity in a farming for properties for the use of her Department; the sector for which a direct payment under Live- details of the lease; the level of occupancy of the stock Premia and/or Arable Aid schemes would buildings; and the use to which the building is cur- have been payable during the reference period rently being put. [22995/07] 2000-2002. Investments can include purchase or long term lease of land, purchase of suckler Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and/or ewe quota or other investments. The per- (Deputy Mary Coughlan): All leasing arrange- son named applied in relation to investment in ments for my Department’s properties are organ- land and was deemed successful. ised by the Office of Public Works. A formal letter outlining my Department’s decision on the National Reserve has issued to Health Regulations. the person named and the relevant payment due 259. Deputy Andrew Doyle asked the Minister has issued. for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if she will Category D caters for farmers who inherited or apply health regulations 2006, S.I. No. 307 of 2006 purchased land and who commenced farming to require caterers to provide information on the after 31 December, 2002 or who commenced country of origin of beef sold on their premises farming in 2002 but who received no direct pay- to customers and to retailers; and if not, when she ments in respect of that scheme year. The person will apply these regulations to the retail sector. named was deemed unsuccessful under this cate- [23024/07] 735 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 736

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food granted but a felling licence has been refused is (Deputy Mary Coughlan): I collaborated with the not captured. In all cases, the decision to grant a Minister for Health & Children to ensure intro- licence is informed by the factors outlined above. duction of the legislation to which the Deputy The existence of planning permission on a site is refers. The legislation provides that all beef sold not a material factor in the assessment of an or served in the retail or catering sector is now application. required to carry an indication of the country of origin. Responsibility for enforcement of this Irish Language. legislation rests with the Food Safety Authority of Ireland (FSAI). 261. Deputy Michael Creed asked the Minister for Education and Science when the jobs Forestry Sector. announced by her for a location (details provided) will commence. [22903/07] 260. Deputy Jan O’Sullivan asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the factors Minister for Education and Science (Deputy that inform her decisions when issuing felling Mary Hanafin): My Cabinet colleague, the Mini- licences; the sanctions available to her if false and ster for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs misleading documentation is supplied to her and I recently announced that an additional Department upon which she partially relies when \1million would be allocated to An Chomhaire making her decision; the number of felling um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaıóchta licences issued by her Department during 2005 over the next three years to provide a support and 2006; if it is Departmental policy not to and development initiative for the Irish language refuse felling licence applications where planning which is to be located at Colaíste Iósagaín. Four permission has been granted by a local authority; additional staff will be assigned to an Chomairle the number of applications refused where plan- for this purpose. ning permission has been granted; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [23137/07] Site Acquisitions. Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food 262. Deputy Michael Creed asked the Minister (Deputy Mary Coughlan): The consideration of for Education and Science the situation regarding applications for felling licences takes into account the provision of a new primary school (details a range of factors. The most important of these supplied) in County Cork; the commitments include extent of the area in question, location, given by her regarding the procurement and pay- age of the trees, species and environmental con- ment for a site for the school; and when the pro- siderations. ject will proceed to construction. [22904/07] The decision to issue felling licences is taken by my Department following assessment of each Minister for Education and Science (Deputy application by the Forest Service Inspector for Mary Hanafin): Officials from the School Plan- the area concerned and following consultation ning Section of the Department met with a del- with the Planning Section of the relevant local egation from the two primary schools involved in authority. In addition, if considered relevant to order to discuss issues surrounding the acquis- the felling application in question, further consul- ition of a proposed Greenfield site. On foot of tations are carried out by my Department with that meeting technical staff from the Department bodies such as the National Parks and Wildlife carried out an assessment of the proposed Green- Service and the Regional Fisheries Boards on field site. The technical report raised a number of environmental and water quality considerations issues which need to be addressed by the school pertaining to the proposed felling site. authorities and a reply is awaited. The supply of false or misleading information The long term projected staffing, on which the in connection with an application for a felling school’s accommodation needs are based, is being licence is an offence under Section 64 of the 1946 Act, attracting both a fine and potentially impris- considered in the Department at present. Once onment following summary conviction. If a the long term projection has been determined licence has already issued on the basis of such and agreed with the school authorities, the build- information, it may be suspended or terminated ing project will be considered in the context of under the terms of the Act. the multi annual School Building and Modernis- A total of 569 and 632 felling licences were ation programme. issued by my Department for the years 2005 and 2006 respectively. The granting of planning per- 263. Deputy Michael Creed asked the Minister mission by a local authority does not confer auto- for Education and Science the standard pro- matic entitlement to a felling licence. Felling cedure regarding the procurement of sites for licence applications are assessed by my Depart- new schools; if this varies where the site is needed ment on their own merits. for a new school or where existing schools are Information concerning the number of appli- amalgamating; and if she will make a statement cations where planning permission has been on the matter. [22905/07] 737 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 738

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy relation to sites acquisitions, has secured a site Mary Hanafin): The Office of Public Works gen- for the provision of a new school. The building erally acts on behalf of my Department in programme required to deliver the new school relation to site acquisitions. Sites are generally building will be considered in the context of the identified either through advertisements and/or School Building and Modernisation Programme. through consultations with the relevant local authority. In some circumstances site acquisitions can be handed by the Department directly or School Accommodation. through the relevant VEC. School Building Pro- jects are progressed in accordance with the pub- 267. Deputy Paul Connaughton asked the lished prioritisation criteria which was agreed Minister for Education and Science if her atten- with the Education Partners. tion has been drawn to the overcrowding at a school in County Galway and the increase in Special Educational Needs. pupils over the past few years; if her further attention has been drawn to the fact that the 264. Deputy Michael Noonan asked the Mini- resource teacher must use the staff room to teach, ster for Education and Science the services she the school still uses two portocabins as staff will make available to assist an autistic person rooms, the special teacher for the non Irish (details supplied) in County Clare; and if she will national population is confined to the classroom make a statement on the matter. [22908/07] and the overcrowding at the only two toilets at the school; the stage the proposed extension has Minister for Education and Science (Deputy reached in her Department; and if she will make Mary Hanafin): As the Deputy will be aware, the a statement on the matter. [22931/07] National Council for Special Education (NCSE) is responsible, through its network of local Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Special Educational Needs Organisers (SENOs), Mary Hanafin): An application for capital fund- for allocating resource teachers and special needs ing towards the provision of an extension has assistants to schools to support children with been received from the school referred to by the special needs. I have arranged for the details sup- Deputy. The assessment of the long term pro- plied by the Deputy to be forwarded to the NCSE jected staffing, on which the schools accom- for their attention and direct reply. All schools modation needs are based is required. Once the have the names and contact details of their local long term projection has been determined and SENO. Parents may also contact their local agreed with the school authorities the building SENO directly to discuss their child’s special edu- project will be considered in the context of the cational needs, using the contact details available multi-annual School Building and Modernisation on www.ncse.ie. programme. Freedom of Information. Schools Building Projects. 265. Deputy Joe Costello asked the Minister 268. Deputy Richard Bruton asked the Mini- for Education and Science if she will include the ster for Education and Science the expected com- Grangegorman Development Agency Act, 2006 pletion date of the construction of a school within the remit of the Freedom of Information (details supplied) in Dublin 9; when it is expected Act 1997. [22919/07] that children might be able to move in to occupy Minister for Education and Science (Deputy the school; and if she will make a statement on Mary Hanafin): I wish to inform the Deputy that the matter. [22961/07] the inclusion of the Grangegorman Development Agency within the remit of the FOI Acts 1997 & Minister for Education and Science (Deputy 2003 is currently being considered by my Depart- Mary Hanafin): I wish to inform the Deputy that ment. A decision on the matter is due to be Planning Permission for the construction of the taken shortly. school to which he refers has been received. It is expected that construction will commence shortly Site Acquisitions. with a construction period of approximately four months, if there are no unforeseen issues. Upon 266. Deputy Michael McGrath asked the Mini- completion of the new building, the school will be ster for Education and Science if her Department informed to make the necessary arrangements to has purchased a site for a proposed new school take up occupation. (details supplied) in County Cork; and when the proposed new school will be put on her Depart- Child Abuse. ment’s school building programme. [22920/07] 269. Deputy Phil Hogan asked the Minister for Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Education and Science the reason her Depart- Mary Hanafin): The Office of Public Works, ment withdrew a Supreme Court appeal in which acts on behalf of my Department in respect of a case (details supplied). [22972/07] 739 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 740

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy school in Ballinamore, County Leitrim. Mary Hanafin): I wish to advise the Deputy that [23038/07] the management of child abuse claims taken against the State was formally delegated to the Minister for Education and Science (Deputy State Claims Agency (SCA) by Government Mary Hanafin): The Office of Public Works, Order made in July 2005. The effect of a del- which acts on behalf of my Department in egation order was that the SCA would act in relation to sites acquisitions, has secured a site place of my Department in instructing a legal for the provision of a new school. The building team in defending and, where appropriate, sett- programme required to deliver the new school ling claims made against the Minister for Edu- building will be considered in the context of the cation and Science. School Building and Modernisation Programme. The decision to withdraw the Supreme Court appeal in the case referred to by the Deputy was Special Educational Needs. taken by the State Claims Agency having regard 273. Deputy Chris Andrews asked the Minister to the facts of this particular case. It is not the for Education and Science the number of policy of my Department to comment on individ- requests received for special needs assistants in ual cases and I do not intend to diverge from that private junior schools in 2005, 2006 and to date practice in this instance. in 2007. [23063/07]

Departmental Properties. Minister for Education and Science (Deputy 270. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister Mary Hanafin): My Department provides for for Education and Science if her Department or special education resources to State recognised properties under the control or administration schools to ensure that children have access to an thereof has suffered any loss of assets through appropriate education with additional supports as fire, theft or flooding in 2004, 2005, 2006 and to necessary. These resources are provided through date in 2007; the cost to the State of these losses; the National Council for Special Education if action has been taken to recover these items, if (NCSE) and the local Special Educational stolen; and the costs involved in their replace- Needs Organisers. ment, if necessary. [22985/07] The Deputy should be aware that private junior schools are not State recognised schools. The information requested by the Deputy is not Minister for Education and Science (Deputy retained by my Department. I will forward the Mary Hanafin): Two laptops owned by my Deputy’s question to the NCSE for their atten- Department have been stolen in recent years — tion and direct reply in the event that they keep one in 2006 from my Department’s offices in a record of such requests. Marlborough Street (valued at \896) and the other in 2007 from a school inspector’s car (valued at \1,120). Neither laptop was recovered. Psychological Service. The cost of replacing each of the laptops was 274. Deputy Chris Andrews asked the Minister \1,400, respectively. There were no other losses for Education and Science the reason a school resulting from fire, theft or flooding during the (details supplied) in Dublin 4 is not included in years in question. the National Educational Psychological Service scheme which provides psychologists to primary 271. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister and post-primary schools; and her views on for Education and Science if her Department has adding this school to the list as soon as pos- entered into any leasing arrangements for proper- sible. [23064/07] ties for the use of her Department; the details of the lease; the level of occupancy of the buildings; Minister for Education and Science (Deputy and the use to which the buildings is currently Mary Hanafin): The Deputy will be aware that all being put. [23000/07] primary and post primary schools have access to psychological assessments either directly through Minister for Education and Science (Deputy the National Educational Psychological Service Mary Hanafin): My Department has not entered (NEPS) or through the Scheme for Com- into any leasing arrangements for office proper- missioning Psychological Assessments (SCPA), ties. The leasing of office property is a matter for full details of which are available on my Depart- the Office of Public Works which acts as an agent ment’s website. Schools that do not currently for all Government Departments. have NEPS psychologists assigned to them, such as the school to which the Deputy refers in the question, may avail of the SCPA and have an Schools Building Projects. assessment carried out by a member of the panel 272. Deputy Eamon Scanlon asked the Mini- of private psychologists approved by NEPS, and ster for Education and Science the position in NEPS will pay the psychologist the fees for this regard to the construction of a new secondary assessment directly. The prioritisation of urgent 741 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 742 cases for assessment is a matter for the school The Student Support Bill is at an advanced principal in the first instance. stage of preparation, and I hope to be in a posi- The Deputy may be aware that since NEPS was tion to publish it shortly. established, we have trebled the number of psychologists in the service. We are committed to 277. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Minister increasing its staffing further, so that by 2009 for Education and Science if parents of Irish born there will be 200 NEPS psychologists. In this children are eligible for education grants or assist- regard recruitment of additional psychologists is ance for return to college or education; if not the currently ongoing and as appointments are made reason for same; the further reason this situation to particular NEPS regions, including the Dublin differs from parents of children who are refugee South West Area, the assignment of further or asylum seeking applicants; and if she will make schools to the NEPS service will be expanded. a statement on the matter. [23095/07]

275. Deputy Chris Andrews asked the Minister Minister for Education and Science (Deputy for Education and Science if in view of the long Mary Hanafin): My Department funds four main- delays in accessing educational psychologists in tenance grant schemes for third level and further the south County Dublin area there are plans to education students. These are the Higher Edu- increase the panel as a matter of urgency. cation Grants Scheme, the Vocational Education [23065/07] Committees’ Scholarships Scheme, the Third Level Maintenance Grants Scheme for Trainees Minister for Education and Science (Deputy and the Maintenance Grants Scheme for Students Mary Hanafin): The Deputy will be aware that all attending Post Leaving Certificate Courses. primary and post primary schools have access to The Higher Education Grants Scheme is psychological assessments either directly through administered by the Local Authorities. The other the National Educational Psychological Service three schemes are administered by the (NEPS) or through the Scheme for Com- Vocational Education Committees. Under the missioning Psychological Assessments (SCPA), terms of the maintenance grants scheme grant assistance is awarded to students who meet the full details of which are available on my Depart- prescribed conditions of funding including those ment’s website. Schools that do not currently which relate to nationality, residency, means and have NEPS psychologists assigned to them, such previous academic attainment. as the school to which the Deputy refers in the The Nationality requirement as set out in the question, may avail of the SCPA and have an 2007 Grant schemes states:-Candidates must: assessment carried out by a member of the panel of private psychologists approved by NEPS, and • hold E.U. Nationality; or NEPS will pay the psychologist the fees for this • have Official Refugee Status; or assessment directly. The prioritisation of urgent cases for assessment is a matter for the school • have been granted Humanitarian Leave to principal in the first instance. Remain in the State (prior to the Immi- Should schools authorities have issues in gration Act 1999); or relation to the commissioning of assessments I • be a person in respect of whom the Mini- would suggest that they make direct contact with ster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the relevant NEPS Regional Director to discuss has granted permission to remain following the matter. a determination not to make a deportation order under section 3 of the Immigration Higher Education Grants. Act 1999; or 276. Deputy James Bannon asked the Minister • have permission to remain in the State by for Education and Science the timeframe for the virtue of marriage to an Irish national transfer of higher education grants from county residing in the State, or be the child of such councils to VECs; and if she will make a state- person, not having EU nationality; or ment on the matter. [23069/07] • have permission to remain in the State by virtue of marriage to a national of another Minister for Education and Science (Deputy EU Member State who is residing in the Mary Hanafin): As the Deputy may already be State and who is or has been employed, or aware, I plan to introduce a single unified scheme self-employed, in the State, or be the child of maintenance grants for students and to consoli- of such a person, not having EU national- date the administration of this unified grants ity; or scheme in the VEC sector. This will, I believe, provide for a more coherent administrative • be nationals of a member country of the system. The scheme, which will be underpinned European Economic Area (EEA) or by a new Student Support Bill, will facilitate con- Switzerland. sistency of application, improved client accessi- A non-EU national who has been granted per- bility and timely delivery of grants. mission to remain in the State on the basis of an 743 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 744

[Deputy Mary Hanafin.] for the Government. Children in special classes Irish born child does not comply with the above also have the option, where possible and appro- conditions and is ineligible for grant assistance priate, of full or partial integration into main- under the nationality requirement of the stream classes and of interaction with other Schemes. Likewise, those in the asylum seeking pupils. process, and their children, do not satisfy the In excess of 265 autism-specific classes have nationality requirement of the Schemes. now been approved around the country at Any extension to the scope of the maintenance primary and post primary level and the National grants schemes can be considered only in the light Council for Special Education will continue to of available resources and in the context of com- establish more such classes where the need arises. peting demands within the education sector. At primary level there are a maximum of six children in each special class with a teacher and at Special Educational Needs. least two special needs assistants (SNAs). Extra assistants are provided where the children need 278. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Minister them. An individual child can have access to full- for Education and Science the status of an appli- time support from an individual SNA if he or she cation for an autistic unit for County Mayo; the needs one. funding arrangements for this pilot scheme; and My Department is currently funding an ABA if she will make a statement on the matter. pilot scheme which was established in the absence [23096/07] of this network of special classes in our schools. The Government is committed to long term fund- Minister for Education and Science (Deputy ing for the centres participating in the scheme, Mary Hanafin): The Deputy will be aware of my subject to agreement on standards that will commitment to ensuring that all children, includ- enable my department to support them as ing those with autism, receive an education primary schools for children with autism. In terms appropriate to their needs. With regard to specific of autism provision in other locations including provision for children with autism, the Govern- Co. Mayo, we will continue to work to ensure ment believes that as each child with autism is that all children can have access to a broad prog- unique; such children should have access to a ramme, with provision for ABA as appropriate, range of different interventions to meet their in special classes. individual needs. Applied behavioural analysis, or ABA, is one of the methodologies used in special classes for children with autism. Higher Education Grants. Advice received from international experts on 279. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Minister autism, the National Educational Psychological for Education and Science if a person (details Service and the inspectorate inform the Depart- supplied) in County Mayo will be deemed eligible ment of Education and Science’s view that a for approval for a course; and if she will make a range of approaches should be used, rather than statement on the matter. [23097/07] just one. An analysis of research, including the report of the Irish Task Force on Autism, also Minister for Education and Science (Deputy supports this approach, and autism societies in Mary Hanafin): I understand the Deputy is asking other countries also caution against relying on about eligibility for a grant under the mainten- just one intervention. By enabling children in ance grant schemes rather than eligibility to special classes to have access to a range of meth- attend a course. odologies, including ABA, the Government is My Departments Maintenance Grants doing what we are advised is in the best interests Schemes, which are assessed by the relevant of such children. Local Authority or the local VEC’s, define a The use of ABA as part of the range of inter- mature student to mean a person of not less than ventions is particularly useful for addressing 23 years of age, on the 1st day of January in the behavioural issues. My Department therefore year of entry to an approved course in an supports the use of ABA and training is provided approved institution. for teachers in its use. It is important that children Mature students may be categorised as either have access to a range of methods so their independent mature students or mature students broader needs can be met. Whereas ABA helps dependent on parents. An independent mature to improve behaviour, other interventions, such student is defined to mean a mature student who as TEACCH and PECS, are important in was not ordinarily resident at home with his/her developing children’s communication skills. parents from the October preceding their entry Children in special classes have the benefit of to an approved course. Independent mature fully-qualified teachers trained in educating and students are assessed without reference to either developing children generally and who have their parents’ income or address. access to additional training in autism-specific When assessing the means of students, other approaches, including ABA. The level of such than Independent Mature Students, the Acts training available to teachers has significantly specify that the students’ means and those of their improved in recent years and is a major priority parents or guardians must be below a prescribed 745 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 746 limit. This provision requires that parental Departmental Properties. income be taken into account irrespective of the 281. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister individual circumstances in any case where the for Defence if his Department or properties student is not an independent mature student. under the control or administration thereof has The condition relating to residency requires, in suffered any loss of assets through fire, theft or the case of a candidate under 23, the candidate’s flooding in 2004, 2005, 2006 and to date in 2007; parents or guardians to have been resident in the the cost to the State of these losses; if action has administrative area of a Local Authority from 1st been taken to recover these items, if stolen; and October of the previous year. In the case of an the costs involved in their replacement, if neces- ‘Independent Mature Candidate’ the candidate sary. [22984/07] himself/herself must have been resident in the administrative area of a Local Authority from 1st Minister for Defence (Deputy Willie O’Dea): October of the previous year. The Scheme speci- It has not been possible in the time available to fies that the Local Authorities have discretion to compile the information requested. I will forward waive this requirement in exceptional cir- the information to the Deputy as soon as cumstances. possible. From the information provided by the Deputy it would appear that the student referred to is 282. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister currently 22 years of age- DOB 16/09/1985 — for Defence if his Department has entered into and, therefore, does not qualify to be assessed as any leasing arrangements for properties for the a mature student and must be assessed with refer- use of his Department; the details of the lease; ence to parental income and address. the level of occupancy of the buildings; and the use to which the buildings is currently being put. [22999/07] School Transport. 280. Deputy Jan O’Sullivan asked the Minister Minister for Defence (Deputy Willie O’Dea): for Education and Science if her attention has The Civil Defence Board occupies a leased prop- been drawn to the need to change school bus erty in Roscrea, Co. Tipperary which accommo- catchment boundaries in the Goatenbridge Ard- dates twenty-six clerical, training and managerial finnan area of County Tipperary in order to give staff members. Some adjoining land is also leased local parents the choice of sending their children for the development of a training range for Civil to schools in Clonmel; and if she will make a Defence exercises. Office space is also leased in statement on the matter. [23138/07] Park House, North Circular Road, Dublin 7 to accommodate some twenty military personnel. Minister of State at the Department of Edu- The leasing agreements outlined are managed and maintained by the OPW. All other buildings cation and Science (Deputy Sea´n Haughey): occupied by the Department of Defence are Under the terms of my Department’s Post State-owned under the control of the OPW. Primary School Transport Scheme, a pupil is eligible for transport if s/he resides 4.8 kilometres or more from her/his local post primary edu- Ground Rents Legislation. cation centre. 283. Deputy Aengus O´ Snodaigh asked the The scheme is not designed to facilitate parents Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if who choose to send their children to a post- he will bring forward legislation to abolish ground primary centre outside of the catchment area in rents; and if he will make a statement on the which they reside. However, children who are matter. [22955/07] fully eligible for transport to the post-primary centre in the catchment area in which they reside, Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform may apply for transport on a concessionary basis (Deputy Brian Lenihan): The law already pro- to a post-primary centre outside of their own vides for a statutory scheme for the acquisition of catchment area — otherwise known as catchment the fee simple in dwelling houses which is set out boundary transport. These children can only be in the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (No. facilitated if spare seats are available on the bus 2) Act 1978. Part III of that Act provides a special after all other eligible children travelling to their procedure, operated by the Property Registration local post-primary centre have been catered for. Authority, whereby a person may acquire the fee simple in their dwelling house. Such children have to make their own way to the A legal challenge to the constitutionality of cer- nearest pick-up point within that catchment area. tain provisions of existing ground rents legislation The Programme for Government includes a was heard in the High Court during 2005. The commitment to review the school transport Court’s judgment upholding the constitutionality scheme, including catchment boundaries. My of the legislation was delivered in early 2006 but Department is currently considering how best to it has been appealed to the Supreme Court. It is progress this task. likely that the appeal will be heard later this year. 747 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 748

[Deputy Brian Lenihan.] Regulations 2006 (SI No. 656 of 2006) amended Operation of the law in relation to ground rents earlier regulations which transposed the Euro- continues to be reviewed in my Department. pean Directive (dated 29 April 2004) on the right There are no proposals for change pending the of citizens of the Union and their family members outcome of the appeal that I have mentioned. to move and reside freely within the territory of The law already provides for a statutory the Member States. As provided for in Regu- scheme for the acquisition of the fee simple in lation 3(2) the Regulations do not apply to non- dwellinghouses which is set out in the Landlord EEA family members unless they were lawfully and Tenant (Ground Rents) (No. 2) Act 1978. resident in another EU Member State and they Part III of that Act provides a special procedure, are seeking to accompany the EU citizen to operated by the Property Registration Authority, Ireland or to join the EU citizen in Ireland. whereby a person may acquire the fee simple in Consequently, non-EEA family members who do their dwellinghouse. not satisfy the condition in Regulation 3(2) A legal challenge to the constitutionality of cer- cannot benefit from the entitlements set out in tain provisions of existing ground rents legislation the Regulations. was heard in the High Court during 2005. The In cases where the non-EEA spouse of an EU Court’s judgment upholding the constitutionality citizen does not qualify for the entitlements as a of the legislation was delivered in early 2006 but result of Regulation 3(2) it is not the result in it has been appealed to the Supreme Court. It is every such case that the right to remain in the likely that the appeal will be heard later this year. State is refused and the non-EEA national must Operation of the law in relation to ground rents leave. Applicants who are refused under the continues to be reviewed in my Department. above Free Movement Regulations may be There are no proposals for change pending the entitled to permission to remain under national outcome of the appeal that I have mentioned. immigration measures and the outcome of each case depends on its particular circumstances. The Residency Permits. persons who are required to leave the State are those who do not have permission to be in the 284. Deputy Michael D. Higgins asked the State under EU or national measures or who Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if were already under an instruction to leave. That he will intervene to ensure the safe delivery of a requirement to leave the State does not arise person (details supplied); and the situation with from a technicality but relates to the unlawful the Dutch authorities. [22906/07] presence of the person in the State. The Deputy refers to cases of families who had a vote in the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform general election. That would suggest that one of (Deputy Brian Lenihan): My Department has no the family members is an Irish citizen (or possibly record of an application for permission to remain a British citizen) and if that is the case then there in the State or for permission to enter the State are other criteria apart from the above matters from the person in question and no communi- relating to any non-EEA family members of an cation has been received from the Dutch auth- Irish citizen who wish to remain in the State. orities regarding his detention in the Netherlands. It should be noted that the fact that the person’s Garda Deployment. parent has been granted permission to remain in the State under the IBC05 scheme does not in 286. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Minister for any way confer on him any entitlement or legit- Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of imate expectation to enter the State. Gardaı´ stationed at the various stations throughout County Kildare; the increase over the last 12 285. Deputy Liz McManus asked the Minister months; and if he will make a statement on the for Justice, Equality and Law Reform her views matter. [22924/07] on whether it is acceptable that families who have lived and worked here are being asked to leave 287. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Minister for on a technicality; the way he will enforce the pro- Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of vision of Regulation 3(2) which requires that in community Gardaı´ stationed in County Kildare; order to avail of residency rights under the Regu- the stations at which the community Gardaı´ are lations, applicants must submit evidence showing stationed; his plans to extend the number of com- lawful residence in another EU Member State munity Gardaı´ in County Kildare; and if he will prior to arrival in Ireland; if he envisages making make a statement on the matter. [22928/07] exemptions to this rule when families have had children here and are living here and have had a Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform vote in the general election here; and if he will (Deputy Brian Lenihan): I propose to take Ques- make a statement on the matter. [22921/07] tions Nos. 286 and 287 together. As of 31 August 2007, the latest date for which Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Garda numbers are readily available, the person- (Deputy Brian Lenihan): The European Com- nel strength of the Carlow/Kildare Division was munities (Free Movement of Persons) (No. 2) 393. This represents an increase of 35 members 749 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 750 over the 358 members in the Division on 31 him within the overall context of the needs of August 2006. The Deputy will appreciate that, as Garda Divisions throughout the country. with any large organisation, on any given day, the overall strength of the organisation may fluctuate Civil Unions. due, for example, to retirements, resignations etc. It is the responsibility of the Garda Divisional 288. Deputy Paul Kehoe asked the Minister for Officer to allocate personnel within his or her Justice, Equality and Law Reform the status of Division taking everything into account. the Civil Partnership Bill, 2004; when further pro- The following table shows the strength of gress will be made on its enactment; and if he will Gardaı´ in the Carlow/Kildare Division broken make a statement on the matter. [22929/07] down by Station as of 31 August 2006 and 31 August 2007: Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Brian Lenihan): As I indicated in my District Station 31/08/06 31/08/07 response to Question number 482 on 2 October 2007, legislation providing for Civil Partnership is Naas Naas 88 99 being developed in my Department in line with Celbridge 20 23 the commitment in the Programme for Govern- ment and as provided for in the Government Clane 7 7 Legislative Programme published by the Chief Kill 3 2 Whip on 25 September last. Maynooth 15 13 Kildare Kildare 29 29 Garda Reserve. Robertstown 3 4 289. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Minister for Kilcullen 2 4 Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of Monasterevin 3 5 persons from County Kildare that have joined the Rathangan 2 4 Garda Reserve; the number of persons from Carbury 2 4 County Kildare who applied to join; the location Newbridge 35 33 of the Garda stations throughout the county that Carlow Carlow 57 69 have Garda Reserve members working in them; his plans to increase the number of Garda Leighlinbridge 1 1 Reserve members working in County Kildare; Ballon 1 1 and if he will make a statement on the matter. Myshall 1 1 [22930/07] Muinebheag 7 7 Athy 18 17 Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Castledermot 2 2 (Deputy Brian Lenihan): Recruitment for the Baltinglass Baltinglass 24 33 Garda Reserve is being carried out by the Public Appointments Service (PAS) and, since August Blessington 18 15 2006, 475 people from Kildare have expressed an Dunlavin 1 1 interest to the PAS in becoming Garda Reserve Hollywood 1 1 members. Donard 1 1 All of those people from Kildare who Shillelagh 1 1 expressed an interest in joining were sub- Tinahely 2 2 sequently contacted by the PAS and many have Hacketstown 2 2 not, to date, come forward for interview. As the nature of the Reserve is that participation is Rathvilly 1 1 purely voluntary, Garda Reserve members have Ballymore 1 1 work, family and other commitments which they Eustace have to balance with their service in An Garda Tullow 9 9 Sıóchańa. Ballytore 1 1 An Garda Sıóchańa and the PAS is offering TOTAL 358 393 maximum flexibility in order to accommodate those who wish to put themselves forward for service. Recruitment is ongoing and new appli- There are four Community Gardaı´ stationed in cations are accepted at any time. It is open to Co. Kildare, one (1) at Naas Garda Station and those who have initially shown interest in becom- three (3) at Leixlip Garda Station. All Gardaı´ ing Garda Reserve members to renew that have a responsibility, inter alia, to be involved in interest now, or at any stage in the future, and Community Policing issues as they arise. An Garda Sıóchańa and the PAS will continue to The situation will be kept under review by the facilitate those who are interested. I have been Garda Commissioner and when additional per- informed that the PAS intend contacting people sonnel next become available the needs of each from Kildare again in the near future in order to of the Garda Divisions will be fully considered by 751 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 752

[Deputy Brian Lenihan.] temporarily in the State; leaving the State before arrange interviews for them in the coming an order is made or consenting to the making of months. a deportation order. Representations have been There are currently five members of the Garda received on behalf of the person concerned. Reserve on Phase IV training who are due to This person’s case file, including all represen- qualify in November, 2007 and will be allocated tations submitted, will be considered under to Carlow / Kildare Division — two to Naas and Section 3(6) of the Immigration Act, 1999, as Blessington and one to Newbridge. amended, and Section 5 of the Refugee Act, 1996 A further two members of the Garda Reserve (Prohibition of Refoulement). I expect the file to are on Phase II training and are due to qualify in be passed to me for decision in due course. December, 2007 and will also be allocated to Carlow / Kildare Division. Human Trafficking. 292. Deputy Mary O’Rourke asked the Mini- Citizenship Applications. ster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the 290. Deputy Jan O’Sullivan asked the Minister approximate number of women lured into Ireland for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when a for sex purposes; if he will provide full details of decision will be made in relation to an application a recently announced initiative to tackle this for naturalisation for a person (details supplied) issue; and his plans to introduce legislation to in County Limerick; and if he will make a state- underpin European directives relating to this ment on the matter. [22933/07] matter. [22943/07]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Brian Lenihan): An application for a (Deputy Brian Lenihan): A number of initiatives certificate of naturalisation from the person have been undertaken by An Garda Sıóchańa, on referred to in the Deputy’s Question was received both a unilateral basis and, as appropriate, by in the Citizenship Section of my Department in working in conjunction with other law enforce- February 2007. Officials in that section are cur- ment agencies, in particular with the UK, in the rently processing applications received in the context of the common travel area to uncover the beginning of 2005 and have approximately 12,400 extent of trafficking in human beings, especially applications on hand to be dealt with before that women. of the person concerned. These are generally The initiative to which the Deputy refers is dealt with in chronological order as this is known as Operation ‘Pentameter II’ and is one deemed to be the fairest to all applicants. It is such particular initiative. Operation Pentameter likely, therefore, that further processing of the II was launched in London by the UK Home Sec- application will commence in the second half of retary on 3 October 2007. Officials from my 2009. Department and senior Garda officers have been I will inform the Deputy when I have reached participating in planning meetings since earlier a decision on the application. this year and it is intended that An Garda Sıóch- ańa will run complementary enforcement oper- Residency Permits. ations in this jurisdiction at the same time as the 291. Deputy Pat Rabbitte asked the Minister United Kingdom. for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the status The operation which is led by Gloucestershire of an application for leave to remain for a person Constabulary is a proactive and co-ordinated (details supplied) in Dublin 9; when a decision campaign of activity to tackle the trafficking in will be made; and if he will make a statement on human beings for sexual exploitation throughout the matter. [22942/07] the common travel area of Ireland and the United Kingdom. The sharing of intelligence between Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform police in both jurisdictions is occurring on a reg- (Deputy Brian Lenihan): The person concerned ular basis, and co-operation in investigating sus- arrived in the State on 28 June, 2005 and applied pected cases of human trafficking which impact for asylum. Her application was refused following on both the UK and Ireland is ongoing. consideration of her case by the Office of the Through Operation Pentameter, a significant Refugee Applications Commissioner and, on level of cooperation has developed, particularly appeal, by the Refugee Appeals Tribunal. in the area of training, with input from the UK Subsequently, in accordance with Section 3 of authorities into training courses run by staff from the Immigration Act, 1999, as amended, she was the Garda Training College. An Garda Sıóchańa informed by letter dated 22 March, 2006, that the is in the process of providing training, relating to Minister proposed to make a deportation order human trafficking, to over one hundred officers in respect of her. She was given the options, to to enable them to recognise the indicators of traf- be exercised within 15 working days, of making ficking and, through intelligence-gathering, to representations to the Minister setting out the enhance our knowledge-base surrounding this reasons why she should be allowed to remain type of criminal activity. 753 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 754

A senior officer at Detective Superintendent outcome of such prosecutions in the Courts to rank from An Garda Sıóchańa has been ascertain if there is a high probability of detection appointed as a liaison officer with Operation Pen- and a high probability of meaningful penalties for tameter and he continues to meet with his such offences; and if he will make a statement on counterparts in the UK on a regular basis with the matter. [22964/07] a view to ensuring that co-ordination of activity between the two jurisdictions in tackling human Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform trafficking is in place. Furthermore, a member of (Deputy Brian Lenihan): Following the sub- the Police Service Northern Ireland (PSNI) is mission in 2004 of a report and recommendations also currently seconded to the Garda National by an expert group on crime statistics, it was Immigration Bureau in relation to this issue and decided that the compilation and publication of this will maximise the co-operation between An crime statistics should be taken over by the Cen- Garda Sıóchańa and the PSNI with regard to the tral Statistics Office, as the national statistical problem of human trafficking. agency, from the Garda Sıóchańa. The Garda Operation Pentameter II is linked to a larger Sıóchańa Act, 2005 consequently makes provision initiative on human trafficking being undertaken for this and the CSO has established a dedicated in a number of European countries including unit for this purpose. Following the setting up of Ireland and this larger initiative will be launched the necessary technical systems and auditing of in Brussels soon. the data from which the statistics are compiled, As part of Operation Pentameter 1, a poster the CSO is now compiling and publishing crimi- campaign was launched in both Ireland and the nal statistics and has published provisional head- UK to encourage victims of human trafficking to line crime statistics since the third quarter of report their plight to State authorities. The 2006. In addition, it has compiled and published undertaking of additional awareness raising a series of quarterly and annual statistics for the initiatives in both the UK and Ireland during period starting with the first quarter of 2003. I Operation Pentameter II has been discussed and understand that the CSO are examining how the plans are being formulated in this regard. crime statistics published might be expanded and Legislation providing for the criminalisation of made more comprehensive. I have requested the trafficking in persons for the purpose of exploi- CSO to provide the statistics sought by the tation will be published in the very near future. Deputy directly to him. This legislation will criminalise trafficking in The Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, human beings as provided for in EU Council 1990 sets out very strict provisions for the control Framework Decision on combating trafficking in of knives and offensive weapons. The Act makes persons. The criminal law provisions in other it an offence for any person, irrespective of age, international instruments, including the Council to: of Europe Convention on action against traffick- • possess any knife or any other article which ing in human beings, are also being taken into has a blade or which is sharply pointed in account in the legislation. The term “exploit- any public place, without good reason or ation” in the Bill is defined as meaning sexual or lawful authority; labour exploitation or the removal of a person’s organs for the purpose of transplanting into • trespass with a knife or any article made another person. for causing injury to or incapacitating a The legislation will be the first in a series of person, and measures to be rolled out over the next year and • produce any article, capable of inflicting I intend to make a further public announcement serious injury, in a manner likely to intimi- in relation to the issue of human trafficking later date another person in the course of com- on this week. Because of the clandestine nature mitting an offence or appearing to be about of the activity there are inherent difficulties in to commit an offence or in the course of a making an estimate of the kind sought by the dispute or fight. Deputy but while there is no evidence of a substantial human trafficking problem in Ireland, the Any person found guilty of such offences is liable Government is determined that all necessary on conviction to a fine or imprisonment for a actions are taken to ensure that it does not term of up to five years or both. become a significant problem in the future. A person found guilty of murder through stab- bing or otherwise is liable to the highest possible penalty of a mandatory penalty of life Crime Levels. imprisonment. 293. Deputy Richard Bruton asked the Mini- The legislative provisions dealing with offen- ster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he sive weapons, and any other measures which will provide data tracking the growth in assaults might be taken to counteract this problem, are using knives in recent years; if he is satisfied that kept under constant review by my Department. the existing legislation treats the carrying of such Prior to the commencement of the new sen- offensive weapons with sufficient seriousness; if tences for a range of firearms offences provided he monitors the number of prosecutions and the for in the Criminal Justice Act 2006, an amnesty 755 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 756

[Deputy Brian Lenihan.] contracts, which are used only in the case of chil- was granted for persons who were in possession dren, agreed up to 30 September, 2007. of firearms and offensive weapons, including Some inaccurate conclusions have been drawn knives, to dispose of them. from the fact no ASBOs have yet been applied As the courts are, subject only to the Consti- for by the Garda authorities. In setting up the tution and the law, independent in the exercise of regime, the intention was that behaviour warn- their judicial functions, it would not be appro- ings or good behaviour contracts would address priate for me to comment on penalties handed the problem behaviour. It is only if they fail that down by the courts. an ASBO will be applied for. I have the power under the Garda Sıóchańa Act to set policing priorities for the Garda Sıóch- Departmental Properties. ańa, and I am in the course of determining these 296. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister priorities for 2008. One of the areas I intend to for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if his prioritise is targeting the use of knives in violent Department or properties under the control or attacks. administration thereof has suffered any loss of assets through fire, theft or flooding in 2004, 2005, Irish Language. 2006 and to date in 2007; the cost to the State of 294. Deputy Richard Bruton asked the Mini- these losses; if action has been taken to recover ster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he these items, if stolen; and the costs involved in will modify the present Irish language com- their replacement, if necessary. [22991/07] petency requirement which is a precondition for a qualified barrister to practise at the Irish Bar; 297. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister and if he will make a statement on the matter. for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if his [22965/07] Department has entered into any leasing arrangements for properties for the use of his Depart- Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform ment; the details of the lease; the level of occu- (Deputy Brian Lenihan): I refer the Deputy to pancy of the buildings; and the use to which the my reply to Question No. 176 of 27 September buildings is currently being put. [23006/07] 2007. Consultations are ongoing and I expect to bring proposals to Government shortly. Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Brian Lenihan): I propose to take Ques- tions Nos. 296 and 297 together. Anti-Social Behaviour. I can inform the Deputy that the accom- 295. Deputy Seamus Kirk asked the Minister modation occupied by my Department is, in the for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number main, sourced by the Office of Public Works and of acceptable behaviour contracts that have been I have requested that Office to respond directly agreed since the commencement of the scheme; to you with information in respect of any lease and if he will make a statement on the matter. arrangements it has in place to meet this need. I [22966/07] have also asked that any information that Office has in respect of losses due to fire, flood or theft Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform be included in that response. In addition, in a cer- (Deputy Brian Lenihan): Part 11 of the Criminal tain number of instances, my Department has Justice Act 2006, which provides for civil pro- entered directly into lease arrangements. A note ceedings in relation to anti-social behaviour by on these is being collated at present and will for- adults, was commenced on 1 January, 2007. Part warded to the Deputy as soon as possible, 13 of the Act relating to anti-social behaviour by together with the information sought concerning children was commenced on 1 March, 2007. any losses incurred due to fire, theft or flood. These provisions set out an incremental procedure for addressing anti-social behaviour by Residency Permits. adults and children. With regard to children, 298. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Minister for these range from a warning from a member of Justice, Equality and Law Reform the position of An Garda Sıóchańa, to a good behaviour contract an application by a person (details supplied) in involving the child and his or her parents or County Kildare to remain in the State; and if he guardian, to referral to the Garda Juvenile Diver- will make a statement on the matter. [23141/07] sion Programme and to the making of a behaviour order by the Children Court. Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform I am informed by the Garda authorities that (Deputy Brian Lenihan): The person in question 202 behaviour warnings have issued to adults up submitted an application on 24th February, 2005 to 31 August, 2007 and 59 behaviour warnings for permission to remain in the State under the issued to children in the same period. revised arrangements for non EU national I am further informed by the Garda authorities parents of Irish children born prior to 1st that there have been two formal good behaviour January, 2005, commonly referred to as the 757 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 758

IBC/05 scheme. The application was refused as equipment has been stolen in the period. While the applicant did not satisfy the continuous resi- some has been recovered with the cooperation of dency criteria of that scheme. the Gardaı´, items to the value of \14,000 had to My Department is currently appealing a be replaced. number of matters related to the IBC/05 scheme, including the issue of continuous residency, to the 303. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister Supreme Court. The application in question may for the Environment, Heritage and Local be considered further in the light of the findings Government if his Department has entered into of the Court. any leasing arrangements for properties for the use of his Department; the details of the lease; Local Authority Area Boundaries. the level of occupancy of the buildings; and the use to which the buildings is currently being 299. Deputy Brian O’Shea asked the Minister put. [23002/07] for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government the proposals he has to extend the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Waterford City borough boundary (details Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): Met supplied); and if he will make a statement on the E´ ireann, a constituent part of my Department, matter. [22954/07] currently lease offices from Airport Shared Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Services (formerly Dublin Airport Authority) on Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): The an annual basis. The lease agreement was entered procedures currently governing boundary alter- into in January 2002 for offices located at Dublin ations are set out in Part V of the Local Govern- Airport (17 staff), Cork Airport (11 staff) and ment Act 1991 and in the Local Government Shannon Airport (30 staff), at an annual cost of \126,165. The provision of these offices is essen- (Boundary Alteration) Regulations 1996. Under ´ these provisions, it is open to a local authority to tial to enable Met Eireann provide a wide range initiate a proposal for the alteration of its bound- of meteorological services to civil, military and aries. This involves preparation of a formal general aviation. All other buildings used by my boundary alteration proposal by the authority Department are leased by OPW on our behalf. concerned including financial, organisational and other implications, invitation of public sub- Local Authority Funding. missions, and consultation with the other local 304. Deputy James Bannon asked the Minister authorities affected by the proposal, prior to sub- for the Environment, Heritage and Local mitting a formal application to the Minister. I Government the position regarding funding for understand that Waterford City Council is village enhancement programmes on a county developing a boundary alteration application basis. [23014/07] under the above legislation. Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Question No. 300 answered with Question Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): The No. 144. 2007 grant allocations to local authorities under the Urban and Village Renewal Programme are Question No. 301 answered with Question set out in the following table. No. 125.

County 2007 Allocation Departmental Properties. \ 302. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Carlow 618,422 Government if his Department or properties Cavan 518,770 under the control or administration thereof has suffered any loss of assets through fire, theft or Clare 1,013,301 flooding in 2004, 2005, 2006 and to date in 2007; Cork City Funding Completed the cost to the State of these losses; if action has Cork County 1,028,113 been taken to recover these items, if stolen; and Donegal 398,029 the costs involved in their replacement, if neces- Dublin 4,668,841 sary. [22987/07] Du´ n Laoghaire-Rathdown 1,175,915 Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Fingal 1,663,556 Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): Galway City Funding Completed There was no significant loss of assets in the years Galway County 729,685 in question as a result of fire, theft or flooding. In Kerry 488,668 2005, a building at Coole Park, Gort, Co Galway was destroyed by fire as a result of an electrical Kildare 997,394 storm. The building has not been rebuilt as alter- Kilkenny 683,122 native accommodation was available. Some Laois 804,689 759 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 760

[Deputy John Gormley.] housing on foot of agreements under Part V of County 2007 Allocation the Planning and Development Acts 2000 to 2006 is contingent on a range of variables, including \ the scale and pace of completion of housing Leitrim 529,977 developments and the proportionate sharing of Limerick City Funding Completed the Part V obligation between social and afford- Limerick County 455,619 able housing in individual local authority housing strategies. While it is not possible to provide a Longford 359,102 definitive figure for the ultimate delivery of social Louth 621,547 housing under Part V agreements in 2007, it is Mayo 340,070 projected that delivery of the order of 800 units Meath 351,070 will be achieved. Monaghan 559,718 North Tipperary 700,706 Housing Grants. Offaly 544,614 308. Deputy Eamon Scanlon asked the Mini- Roscommon 541,279 ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local Sligo 539,567 Government when an inspection for a person South Tipperary 632,233 (details supplied) in County Sligo in respect of rural renewal application will be carried out. South Dublin 1,019,641 [23039/07] Waterford City Funding Completed Waterford County 760,792 Minister of State at the Department of the Westmeath 397,317 Environment, Heritage and Local Government Wexford 758,169 (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): A further inspection Wicklow 689,728 with a view to issuing a Certificate of Reasonable Cost, if in order, will be carried out as soon as possible. Local Authority Staff. Local Authority Housing. 305. Deputy James Bannon asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local 309. Deputy Chris Andrews asked the Minister Government the arrangements being made to lift for the Environment, Heritage and Local the embargo on the recruitment of council staff Government when, in view of the fact that resi- in view of the increased emphasis on health and dents have agreed the regeneration of their flats safety for staff and public. [23015/07] a number of months ago, he will sign off on the council plans for the refurbishment of flats Minister for the Environment, Heritage and (details supplied) in Dublin 8; and if he will make Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): Iam a statement on the matter. [23068/07] reviewing the overall employment position in the local government sector, having regard to the Minister of State at the Department of the need to deliver front line services, and achieve Environment, Heritage and Local Government value for money within the parameters of (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): Under the Housing Government policy on public service employment Management Initiative, local authorities have generally. As part of my review, my Department been given direct control, from 1 January 2007, in is consulting the Department of Finance in relation to their internal capital receipts from the relation to the current ceiling on local authority sale of local authority dwellings, which are to be staff numbers, including impacts in relation to used primarily for their improvement works prog- increased servicing requirements and other obli- rammes. While my Department approves the gations in the local government sector. overall programmes, it is the responsibility of local authorities to prioritise and advance individ- Question No. 306 answered with Question ual projects. The overall programme proposed by No. 154. Dublin City Council was approved by my Depart- ment on 24 April 2007. Social and Affordable Housing. In progressing individual elements of programmes, local authorities must comply with cer- 307. Deputy Phil Hogan asked the Minister for tain project appraisal and assessment require- the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- ments. In that context, Dublin City Council was ment the number of social houses that will be asked by my Department on 30 July 2007 to pre- delivered under part V in 2007; and if he will pare a cost benefit analysis for projects under make a statement on the matter. [23029/07] their precinct improvement programme, including the flats complex in question. In addition, my Minister of State at the Department of the Department has raised concerns regarding some Environment, Heritage and Local Government design elements of the proposed works. (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The delivery of social 761 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 762

A response from Dublin City Council is (DIG) report published on 8 October is Quarter awaited. 3 2010.

Noxious Weeds. Question No. 312 answered with Question No. 125. 310. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Question No. 313 answered with Question Government if he has plans to announce a date No. 122. for the banning of the sale of the invasive weed lagarosiphon major here; and if he will make a Water and Sewerage Schemes. statement on the matter. [23098/07] 314. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): Local Government when he expects to provide Lagarosiphon major, also known as the curly- the funding for the upgrading of sewage treat- leaved pondweed, is a native of southern Africa. ment facilities at Ballymore Eustace, County It has been widely sold for many years as an oxy- Kildare; and if he will make a statement on the genating plant for garden ponds and aquaria. matter. [23149/07] However, it is now viewed as a major threat to Irish lakes and their associated wildlife since it Minister for the Environment, Heritage and became established in Lough Corrib in 2005. Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): The provision of a new waste water treatment plant in Section 52(6)(a) of the Wildlife Act 1976 (as Ballymore Eustace has been approved for fund- amended) provides for regulations prohibiting ing under the Serviced Land Initiative measure the possession or introduction of any species of of my Department’s Water Services Investment wild flora which may be detrimental to native Programme 2007-2009 at an estimated cost of species. Work is under way in my Department in \1.4 million. My Department is awaiting sub- preparing regulations as part of a range of mission of a revised Design Review Report for measures being taken on an all-Ireland basis to the scheme by Kildare County Council. Following address the threat posed by a number of invasive approval of the design, the Council will be in a plant and animal species. position to prepare Contract Documents and to advance the scheme to construction. Decentralisation Programme. 311. Deputy Brian O’Shea asked the Minister Radon Gas Levels. for the Environment, Heritage and Local 315. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Government the position regarding the decentra- Minister for the Environment, Heritage and lisation of part of his Department to Waterford Local Government if he has received confir- City; and if he will make a statement on the mation regarding dangerous levels of radon gas matter. [23106/07] at any or many locations throughout the country or in County Kildare; and if he will make a state- Minister for the Environment, Heritage and ment on the matter. [23152/07] Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): Under the decentralisation programme, all Minister of State at the Department of the Dublin based operations of my Department are Environment, Heritage and Local Government being decentralised, with the exception of Met (Deputy Tony Killeen): The Radiological Protec- E´ ireann, ENFO, the Private Rented Tenancies tion Institute of Ireland (RPII) carried out a Board and a small co-ordination section which it nationwide survey of radon gas in domestic dwell- is proposed to retain in Dublin to assist with the ings between 1992 and 1999. The survey involved Department’s Da´il and other business. A total of the measurement of radon for a 12-month period 682 Dublin based posts will be transferred to four in a random selection of homes in each 10 km x locations in the South East: Wexford (270 posts); 10 km grid square throughout the country. The Waterford (225 posts); New Ross (125 posts) and results of the survey were used to predict the per- Kilkenny (62 posts). centage of houses in each grid square with radon The OPW has identified a suitable site in concentrations in excess of 200 Becquerels per Waterford City for the Department’s offices and cubic metre (Bq/m3), which is the National Refer- purchase terms have been agreed with Waterford ence Level in respect of houses. Grid squares City Council. The contract of sale for the 2.9 acre where this percentage is greater than 10% are site located at Bolton Street/Catherine Street is designated as High Radon Areas and such grid being finalised. It is hoped to go to tender for the squares exist in every county. The RPII’s website, construction of the offices, as part of a larger www.rpii.ie, contains a comprehensive map which mixed development in 2008. shows the location of High Radon Areas through- The indicative timescale for the completion of out the country. County radon maps and survey the Department’s offices in Waterford as outlined results can be viewed also on that website by in the Decentralisation Implementation Group clicking on the county by name. The RPII has 763 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 764

[Deputy Tony Killeen.] poses to take to address the issue of the leaking of measured over 30,000 homes in Ireland since methane gas from sewage treatment plants; and if establishing its radon measurement programme he will make a statement on the matter. in the early 1990s. The following table gives sum- [23155/07] mary results of the radon measurements carried out in each county up to 31 July 2007: Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): County Number of Number of Highest Sludge is a waste water treatment by-product and houses houses in concentration the generation of methane gas for use as a fuel is measured categories of of radon radon found a potentially beneficial feature of sludge treat- concentration (Bq/m3) 200- ment, in particular anaerobic digestion. Sludge 0-199 Bq/m3 999 Bq/m3 treatment facilities should not release methane >1000 Bq/m3 into the environment in the course of normal operation, nor should methane gas be released Carlow 644 528 11,421,725 from a well-operated and maintained waste water Cavan 341 330 110,780 collection or treatment system. The European Clare 2374 2,061 286,272,980 Communities (Waste Water Treatment) Cork 3,518 3,211 30,072,309 (Prevention of Odours and Noise) Regulations 2005 require sanitary authorities to ensure that Donegal 1,000 952 480,512 waste water treatment plants in their control are Dublin 2,086 1,957 12,811,410 operated and maintained in a manner that does Galway 4,320 3,455 816,493,434 not cause a nuisance through odours or noise Kerry 2,859 2,470 3,236,649,000 emissions. The authorities are also required to Kildare 913 867 4,511,114 maintain records of odour and noise incidences Kilkenny 842 740 9,932,444 occurring in treatment plants and to provide details of any such incidences in their annual Laois 469 452 170,565 report to the Environmental Protection Agency. Leitrim 278 262 1,511,630 Limerick 970 895 7,231,857 Local Authority Housing. Longford 254 236 180,552 Louth 500 434 660,751 319. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Mayo 2,885 2,419 452,146,203 Local Government if he will enhance the public Meath 652 594 580,932 housing programme by way of increased house Monaghan 233 218 150,794 building by the local authorities with the specific Offaly 399 387 120,495 intention of meeting the requirements of first Roscommon 501 450 5,011,387 time house buyers; and if he will make a state- Sligo 1293 986 279,285,508 ment on the matter. [23156/07] Tipperary 1455 1305 139,112,394 Minister of State at the Department of the Waterford 920 724 177,193,023 Environment, Heritage and Local Government Wexford 1,200 1,034 16,062,926 (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The Government’s Westmeath 467 425 420699 housing policy statement — Delivering Homes, Wicklow 1,482 1,236 2,301,616,438 Sustaining Communities — and the National Development Plan 2007-2013 reflect the strong Total 32,855 28,628 3,972,255 commitment to expand social and affordable housing provision contained in the social partner- According to the RPII, County Kildare is not ship agreement, Towards 2016. The NDP pro- considered to be a high radon area with the vides the resources — \18 billion in total — which exception of a very small area in the south of the will support increased output from social and county. To date, the RPII has carried out 913 affordable housing measures and result in the radon measurements in homes in County Kildare. needs of 140,000 new households being met in Of these, 46 were found to be above the National this period. Within this, a significant programme Reference Level of 200 Becquerels per cubic of activity to assist house purchase is provided metre (Bq/m‡), with the highest level being 1,114 for. In particular, over the period of the NDP, Bq/m‡ in a house in Naas. 40,000 households will benefit from affordable housing. Some 17,000 of these will be delivered Questions Nos. 316 and 317 answered with in the first three-year period, in line with the Question No. 122. agreement in Towards 2016. My Department is working closely with local authorities and the Water and Sewerage Schemes. Affordable Homes Partnership to achieve the significant increase in delivery required to meet 318. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the these ambitious targets. In addition, NDP Minister for the Environment, Heritage and resources will be used to meet the needs of Local Government the steps he has taken or pro- 765 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 766

100,000 households through a range of social develop a long-term air quality management plan housing measures. Some 63,000 new social homes to ensure compliance with the thresholds for the will be commenced or acquired in the 2007-13 relevant pollutant or pollutants, including those period, through a combination of local authority, arising from traffic. As the monitoring in 2006 voluntary and co-operative housing and new units indicated that air quality in Ireland is good and for the rental accommodation scheme. Further complied with the air quality standards in force households will benefit as they transfer to the for all pollutants, I understand that the EPA rental accommodation scheme with their existing required no local authority to develop a long- landlords or from naturally occurring vacancies. term air quality management plan. Over the 2007-09 period, sufficient resources will be made available to commence or acquire 27,000 Question No. 322 answered with Question new units of social housing. To ensure that these No. 125 programmes are delivered in a coherent and co- ordinated manner, City and County Councils Archaeological Sites. have put in place multi-annual Housing Action Plans which encompass delivery of social and 323. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the affordable housing in their areas, including Town Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Councils. Meetings are being held with local Local Government if has in mind a policy to carry authorities, as part of the ongoing interaction on out excavations at historical monuments or sites Housing Action Plans, to support delivery in the with a view to making information available with 2008-10 period. the objective of utilisation for educational, heritage and tourism purposes as opposed to excavation in conjunction with motorways, bridges or Air Pollution. other modern structures; if his attention has been 320. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the drawn to the best practice overseas in this regard; Minister for the Environment, Heritage and the way he proposes to introduce this here; and Local Government the extent to which he has if he will make a statement on the matter. studied the results of air pollution monitoring at [23162/07] various locations throughout the country; the action or actions expected to be taken arising Minister for the Environment, Heritage and from such studies; and if he will make a statement Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): on the matter. [23157/07] Excavations at sites listed on the statutory Record of Monuments and Places are licensed by 321. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the my Department under section 26 of the National Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Monuments Act 1930, as amended, with the Local Government if his attention has been exception of excavations associated with drawn to the results of air pollution monitoring approved road developments. In the latter case, at various locations throughout County Kildare; if archaeological excavation works are carried out the results indicate the requirement for particular in accordance with ministerial directions issued action; and if he will make a statement on the under section 14A of the National Monuments matter. [23158/07] Act 1930, as amended, following consultation with the Director of the National Museum of Minister of State at the Department of the Ireland. The specific reasons for any application Environment, Heritage and Local Government for an excavation licence or for ministerial direc- (Deputy Tony Killeen): I propose to take Ques- tions are carefully considered by my Department tions Nos. 320 and 321 together. on a case-by-case basis and licences and direc- Air quality assessment is the responsibility of tions are issued, with conditions as appropriate, the Environmental Protection Agency and air in line with national and international best prac- quality management is a matter for local auth- tice. All excavations carried out under licence or orities informed by air quality measurement data. directions, including those undertaken in associ- The EPA report, Air Quality in Ireland 2006, ation with development projects, have the poten- which was published earlier today, contains tial to add to the overall state of knowledge of details of the monitoring and assessment of our past. My Department will continue to support national air quality and incorporates data from the development of this information resource and all air quality monitoring stations operated by the to disseminate knowledge and awareness of the EPA and local authorities, including monitors in archaeological heritage as widely as possible. County Kildare. Air quality was good throughout For the past number of years my Department the country in 2006 and complied with the air has provided grants, through the Royal Irish quality standards in force for all pollutants. The Academy, for archaeological excavations aimed report is available on the EPA’s website, at increasing the body of archaeological know- www.epa.ie. If the indicative level for any pol- ledge. For each of 2006 and 2007, these grants lutant is exceeded, the Air Quality Standards amounted to \200,000. I am currently considering Regulations 2002 require the local authority con- measures that could be taken to further enhance cerned, following notification by the Agency, to archaeological research. My Department funds 767 Questions— 10 October 2007. Written Answers 768

[Deputy John Gormley.] for Communications, Energy and Natural all excavations associated with conservation Resources if his Department or properties under works to National Monuments in State ownership the control or administration thereof has suffered or guardianship and provides financial support any loss of assets through fire, theft or flooding for the publication of the annual Excavations in 2004, 2005, 2006 and to date in 2007; the cost Bulletin which summarises the results of all to the State of these losses; if action has been licensed archaeological excavations undertaken taken to recover these items, if stolen; and the in the State. The Discovery Programme, which costs involved in their replacement, if neces- undertakes targeted research excavations, is sup- sary. [22982/07] ported by the Heritage Council, which is funded by my Department. My Department continues to Minister for Communications, Energy and fund the publication of reports on various archae- Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): In the ological research projects. Last week, for time available, it has not been possible to identify example, I launched Volume 5: The New Survey and assemble all of the information requested. I of Clare Island; Archaeology. Further publi- am arranging for the compilation of data and a cations on Kells Priory in County Kilkenny, Ard- detailed reply will issue to the Deputy shortly. fert Cathedral and a national shipwreck inventory for Counties Louth, Meath, Dublin and Wicklow 325. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister are due for publication soon. for Communications, Energy and Natural To further assist in disseminating archaeolog- Resources if his Department has entered into any ical knowledge my Department is live-testing a leasing arrangements for properties for the use of dedicated archaeology website, www.archaeolo- his Department; the details of the lease; the level gy.ie. My Department has initiated and of occupancy of the buildings; and the use to implemented a number of tailored education and which the building is being put. [22997/07] awareness raising projects highlighting Ireland’s archaeological heritage such as the Archaeology Minister for Communications, Energy and in the Classroom project for primary schools Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): Leas- undertaken in conjunction with the Limerick ing of property and accommodation occupied by Education Centre. A further version of this pro- my Department is in the main managed by the ject tailored for Transition Year is at an advanced Office of Public Works — my Department has no stage of development. It is my intention that the review of archaeological policy and practice in direct role in these matters. My Department has Ireland, which I have initiated and which will a direct involvement in leasing or renting only include public consultation with relevant stake- two small properties and details of these arrange- holders, will address in-depth issues of the type ments are set out in the table that follows this raised in the question. reply. The Government has decided that responsibility for the areas involved should Departmental Properties. transfer to the Department of Agriculture, Fish- 324. Deputy Tony Gregory asked the Minister eries and Food.

Property name or Length of Lease Name of Lessor Specific Conditions Details of Details of Upward address entered into, if any Payments or Cost rental Clause

Seafood Control Annual rental Mr. Michael none Annual rental: none Office, Cobh, Whelan \3,000 Co. Cork Seafood Control Annual rental Foyle Fisheries Co- none Annual rental: none Office, operative \7,200 Greencastle, Co. Donegal