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OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Thursday, 17 October 2019
The Council met at half-past Ten o'clock
MEMBERS PRESENT:
THE PRESIDENT THE HONOURABLE ANDREW LEUNG KWAN-YUEN, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG
THE HONOURABLE ABRAHAM SHEK LAI-HIM, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TOMMY CHEUNG YU-YAN, G.B.S., J.P.
PROF THE HONOURABLE JOSEPH LEE KOK-LONG, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE JEFFREY LAM KIN-FUNG, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE WONG TING-KWONG, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE STARRY LEE WAI-KING, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAK-KAN, B.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN KIN-POR, G.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE PRISCILLA LEUNG MEI-FUN, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-KIN, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, G.B.S., J.P.
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THE HONOURABLE PAUL TSE WAI-CHUN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CLAUDIA MO
THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL TIEN PUK-SUN, B.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE STEVEN HO CHUN-YIN, B.B.S.
THE HONOURABLE FRANKIE YICK CHI-MING, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE WU CHI-WAI, M.H.
THE HONOURABLE YIU SI-WING, B.B.S.
THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHARLES PETER MOK, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHI-CHUEN
THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAN-PAN, B.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG, S.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LEUNG
THE HONOURABLE ALICE MAK MEI-KUEN, B.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE KWOK KA-KI
THE HONOURABLE KWOK WAI-KEUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE DENNIS KWOK WING-HANG
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG WAH-FUNG, S.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE HELENA WONG PIK-WAN
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THE HONOURABLE IP KIN-YUEN
THE HONOURABLE ELIZABETH QUAT, B.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LIAO CHEUNG-KONG, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE POON SIU-PING, B.B.S., M.H.
IR DR THE HONOURABLE LO WAI-KWOK, S.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHUNG KWOK-PAN
THE HONOURABLE ALVIN YEUNG
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WAN SIU-KIN
THE HONOURABLE CHU HOI-DICK
THE HONOURABLE JIMMY NG WING-KA, B.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE JUNIUS HO KWAN-YIU, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE HO KAI-MING
THE HONOURABLE LAM CHEUK-TING
THE HONOURABLE HOLDEN CHOW HO-DING
THE HONOURABLE SHIU KA-FAI, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE SHIU KA-CHUN
THE HONOURABLE WILSON OR CHONG-SHING, M.H.
THE HONOURABLE YUNG HOI-YAN, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE PIERRE CHAN
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THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHUN-YING, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TANYA CHAN
THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG KWOK-KWAN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE HUI CHI-FUNG
THE HONOURABLE LUK CHUNG-HUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAU KWOK-FAN, M.H.
THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LAU IP-KEUNG, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE CHENG CHUNG-TAI
THE HONOURABLE KWONG CHUN-YU
THE HONOURABLE JEREMY TAM MAN-HO
THE HONOURABLE GARY FAN KWOK-WAI
THE HONOURABLE AU NOK-HIN
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG WING-SHUN, M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TONY TSE WAI-CHUEN, B.B.S.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN HOI-YAN
MEMBERS ABSENT:
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
DR THE HONOURABLE FERNANDO CHEUNG CHIU-HUNG
DR THE HONOURABLE CHIANG LAI-WAN, S.B.S., J.P.
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PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING:
THE HONOURABLE MATTHEW CHEUNG KIN-CHUNG, G.B.M., G.B.S., J.P. CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION
THE HONOURABLE JAMES HENRY LAU JR., J.P. SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY, AND FINANCIAL SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE MS TERESA CHENG YEUK-WAH, G.B.S., S.C., J.P. SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE
THE HONOURABLE WONG KAM-SING, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT
THE HONOURABLE NICHOLAS W. YANG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR INNOVATION AND TECHNOLOGY
THE HONOURABLE LAU KONG-WAH, J.P. SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS
DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHI-KWONG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE
THE HONOURABLE JOSHUA LAW CHI-KONG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE
THE HONOURABLE JOHN LEE KA-CHIU, S.B.S., P.D.S.M., J.P. SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
THE HONOURABLE FRANK CHAN FAN, J.P. SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING
PROF THE HONOURABLE SOPHIA CHAN SIU-CHEE, J.P. SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD YAU TANG-WAH, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
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THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL WONG WAI-LUN, J.P. SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT
THE HONOURABLE KEVIN YEUNG YUN-HUNG, J.P. SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION
THE HONOURABLE PATRICK NIP TAK-KUEN, J.P. SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS
CLERK IN ATTENDANCE:
MR KENNETH CHEN WEI-ON, S.B.S., SECRETARY GENERAL
THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE TO ATTEND THE MEETING UNDER RULE 8 OF THE RULES OF PROCEDURE, AND TO ANSWER QUESTIONS PUT BY MEMBERS ON THE POLICY ADDRESS.
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THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE'S QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Chief Executive's Question and Answer Session. Members will please remain standing while the Chief Executive enters the Chamber.
(While the Chief Executive was entering the Chamber and walking towards the rostrum, a number of Members repeatedly chanted the slogans: "Five demands, not one less! Probe police brutality, seek the truth!")
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please keep quiet. The Chief Executive will first address the Council.
(Mr KWONG Chun-yu indicated his wish to raise a point of order)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr KWONG Chun-yu, what is your point of order?
MR KWONG CHUN-YU (in Cantonese): President, please give me some 10 seconds and do not switch off my microphone so that I can raise a point of order.
Carrie LAM, many Hong Kong people would like to chastise you. Your intransigence has aroused widespread anger and grievances in Hong Kong …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr KWONG, this is not a point of order. Please sit down immediately.
MR KWONG CHUN-YU (in Cantonese): President …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr KWONG, if you have a point of order, please raise it directly.
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MR KWONG CHUN-YU (in Cantonese): President, just relax. I have yet to raise my point of order. When 1 million people took to the streets, she was indifferent; when 2 million people took to the streets, she remained indifferent …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr KWONG Chun-yu …
MR KWONG CHUN-YU (in Cantonese): President, please listen first as I only have to say one more sentence. Under Rule 18 of the Rules of Procedure ("RoP") …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr KWONG, please state your point of order. If you do not do so, please sit down.
MR KWONG CHUN-YU (in Cantonese): President, please listen to what I am going to say. Under RoP 18(b), Members may, subject to the approval of the President of the Legislative Council, make obituary speeches. I hereby call upon all attendees of the meeting, including various Secretaries of Departments and Directors of Bureaux, to observe a one-minute silence for those Hong Kong people who had sacrificed their lives in the movement. The observance of silence now begins.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I myself also lament the deaths of the persons in question during the incidents in recent months. Nevertheless, according to the convention of this Council, the observance of silence will only be held at Council meetings to mourn for deceased Members in office, political dignitaries with significant contribution to Hong Kong or victims of catastrophes.
Given that the persons in question do not belong to any of the aforesaid categories, Members may consider mourning for them on other occasions or in other ways.
Chief Executive, please address the Council.
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CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): President …
(A number of Members repeatedly chanted the slogan "Five demands, not one less!" while standing)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please keep quiet, otherwise I will treat this behaviour as disorderly conduct.
CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): President, Honourable Members and fellow citizens, yesterday I delivered, to the Legislative Council, the 2019 …
(Ms Claudia MO repeatedly chanted "Probe police brutality", and a number of Members chanted "Find out the truth" immediately thereafter)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms Claudia MO, this is my final warning. If you keep shouting, I will ask you to leave the Chamber.
Chief Executive, please continue with your speech.
CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): President, Honourable Members …
(A number of Members chanted the slogan "Probe police brutality, down with Carrie LAM!" while standing)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): If Members refuse to sit down and keep shouting, it will be impossible for the meeting to proceed. Many members of the public are keen to listen to the Chief Executive's Question and Answer Session.
(A number of Members kept yelling while standing)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please keep quiet and sit down.
(Mr CHU Hoi-dick kept yelling while standing, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen pointed at the Chief Executive and shouted "Hong Kong HITLER!")
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHU Hoi-dick, please leave the Chamber.
(Mr CHU Hoi-dick still kept shouting when security officers moved forward to assist him in leaving the Chamber)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, please withdraw what you said just now, otherwise I will treat this as …
(Mr CHAN Chi-chuen shouted "Hong Kong HITLER!")
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, your conduct is grossly disorderly. Please leave the Chamber.
(Mr CHAN Chi-chuen kept shouting. Mr CHAN and Mr CHU eventually left the Chamber with the assistance of security officers)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I once again appeal to Members. Many members of the public hope that Members will put questions to the Chief Executive on their behalf at the Chief Executive's Question and Answer Session.
(A number of Members repeatedly chanted the slogans: "Probe police brutality, down with Carrie LAM!")
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): If Members keep shouting, it will be impossible for the meeting to proceed.
(Ms Claudia MO and a number of Members kept chanting slogans)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms Claudia MO, please leave the Chamber immediately.
(A Member requested a review of the video recording)
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I had previously warned Ms Claudio MO that I would ask her to leave the Chamber immediately should she shout again. I had also warned other Members that if they kept shouting and refused to sit down, I would regard their conduct as grossly disorderly.
(Ms Claudia MO yelled as security officers moved forward to assist her in leaving the Chamber)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms Claudia MO, please leave the Chamber immediately.
(Ms Claudia MO kept shouting. At this juncture, Mr HUI Chi-fung yelled while standing)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr HUI Chi-fung, please leave the Chamber.
(Mr HUI Chi-fung kept shouting as security officers moved forward to assist him in leaving the Chamber)
(Ms Claudia MO yelled again before leaving the Chamber with the assistance of security officers)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr HUI Chi-fung, please leave the Chamber.
(Mr HUI Chi-fung still kept shouting before leaving the Chamber with the assistance of security officers)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Chief Executive, please continue with your speech.
CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): President of the Legislative Council, Honourable Members and fellow citizens, the 2019 Policy Address was presented to the Legislative Council yesterday even though the objective circumstances at that time did not allow me to deliver, at the Legislative Council, the entire …
(Dr KWOK Ka-ki indicated his wish to raise a point of order)
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr KWOK Ka-ki, what is your point of order?
DR KWOK KA-KI (in Cantonese): President, Hong Kong people have been living in dire straits for more than three months, but she acted as if nothing had occurred when she came to the Legislative Council. I demand that she apologize to all Hong Kong people before she continues with her bullshit!
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr KWOK, this is not a point of order. Please sit down.
Chief Executive, please continue with your speech.
CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): As I said at the beginning of my speech, the Policy Address was presented to the Legislative Council yesterday. To allow members of the public to know in full the various initiatives in it, I delivered the third Policy Address of my tenure to members of the public through video yesterday afternoon …
(Mr WU Chi-wai shouted "Down with Carrie LAM!" and "Carrie LAM is a liar!" in his seat)
CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): … and the text of the Policy Address has been uploaded to the Policy Address website.
(Mr WU Chi-wai kept yelling)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WU Chi-wai, please leave the Chamber.
CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): Furthermore, I also held a press conference yesterday afternoon to explain the key points and the content of the Policy Address to the public through the media.
(Mr WU Chi-wai did not leave the Chamber as ordered by the President and continued to speak aloud)
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CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): I am happy to respond to Members' questions on the Policy Address.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WU Chi-wai, please leave the Chamber.
(Security officers moved forward to assist Mr WU Chi-wai in leaving the Chamber, but he refused to leave and continued to speak aloud)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WU Chi-wai, please leave the Chamber immediately.
(Mr WU Chi-wai still kept speaking aloud)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WU Chi-wai, please leave the Chamber immediately.
(Mr WU Chi-wai left the Chamber with the assistance of security officers)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I repeat, many people hope that Members will put questions to the Chief Executive in the Chief Executive's Question and Answer Session. This is the constitutional duty of Members. I do want this meeting to proceed so that members of the public can listen to the detailed responses of the Chief Executive in respect of her governance or other issues.
Chief Executive, please continue with your speech.
(Dr KWOK Ka-ki indicated his wish to raise a point of order)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr KWOK Ka-ki, what is your point of order?
DR KWOK KA-KI (in Cantonese): My question for the Chief Executive was clear enough: Should she apologize to the people who died or injured in the past few months?
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr KWOK Ka-ki, this is not a point of order.
DR KWOK KA-KI (in Cantonese): But she gave no response and did not reply to my question after a lengthy talk. I demand that she apologize to all Hong Kong people.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr KWOK, please stop abusing the point of order procedure. You may wait for your turn to ask the Chief Executive for a reply.
Chief Executive, please continue with your speech.
CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): I am happy to respond to Members' questions on the Policy Address.
MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): President …
(Mr Jeremy TAM, holding a placard while standing, repeatedly chanted "Five demands" and a number of Members chanted "Not one less" immediately thereafter)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Jeremy TAM, please leave the Chamber immediately.
(Mr Jeremy TAM kept chanting the slogans "Five demands, not one less! Down with Carrie LAM, probe police brutality!" with a number of Members and left the Chamber with the assistance of security officers)
MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): President, I hope pan-democratic Members will give me three minutes to put my question, and then they can go on with their political show.
As I remember, before the release of the Policy Address, Chief Secretary Matthew CHEUNG had said in his blog that this Policy Address would be "unusual, untraditional and unconventional". Yesterday, when the Chief LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019 201
Executive delivered the Policy Address, she elaborated her land and housing policies at great length. Despite her efforts in this respect, she has failed to show us how she is going to solve the problems facing the grass roots, the middle-class and the elderly or demonstrate a new style of governance. Earlier on, we advised her to introduce a "semi-elderly" card and lower the eligible age for elderly welfare benefits from 65 to 60. Yet, the Chief Executive did not respond to our suggestions at all. I therefore do not think the "Three Uns" as depicted by the Chief Secretary applies to this Policy Address, which is also traditional and conventional.
Policy directions aside, many Hong Kong people are actually eager to learn how the Chief Executive will, in her Policy Address, respond to the current chaos in Hong Kong. A lot of people have told us that they dare not go out at weekends for fear of the chaotic social situations such as blocking roads, setting fire, hurling petrol bombs, etc. Businesses, restaurants and banks have fallen prey to targeted attacks. One may be beaten up and lynched by a crowd simply for saying "I am Chinese" …
(Ms Tanya CHAN yelled)
MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): In the past four months, social order and the rule of law …
(Ms Tanya CHAN yelled again)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms Tanya CHAN, please leave the Chamber immediately.
MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): … were completely disrupted. Noting the "Three Uns" as depicted by the Chief Secretary, I wonder if the Chief Executive can offer Hong Kong people "Three guarantees" …
(While Ms Tanya CHAN was leaving the Chamber voluntarily, she repeatedly chanted the slogan "Five demands, not one less!" with a number of Members)
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MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): … that is, guarantee that shops will not be vandalized; guarantee that people will not be afraid when they go out, and guarantee that public opinions will not be violently attacked. Chief Executive, can you give Hong Kong people these "three guarantees"?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Chief Executive, please answer.
CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): I thank Mr CHAN Hak-kan for his question.
(Dr KWOK Ka-ki chanted "Five demands" while standing and a number of Members chanted "Not one less" immediately thereafter. After that, Dr KWOK chanted "Probe police brutality" and a number of Members chanted "Seek the truth" immediately thereafter)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr KWOK Ka-ki, please leave the Chamber immediately.
(Security officers moved forward to assist Dr KWOK Ka-ki in leaving the Chamber, but he refused to leave and spoke aloud)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr KWOK Ka-ki, please leave the Chamber immediately.
(Dr KWOK Ka-ki and a few Members repeatedly chanted slogans again while security officers continued to assist Dr KWOK in leaving the Chamber)
(Mr Andrew WAN, holding up a placard and white flowers, stood on an aisle of the Chamber, intending to walk towards the President's podium; security officers moved forward to stop him)
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WAN, please leave the Chamber immediately.
(Security officers wanted to assist Mr Andrew WAN in leaving the Chamber but he refused to leave and spoke aloud)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WAN, please leave the Chamber immediately.
(Dr KWOK Ka-ki left the Chamber with the assistance of security officers)
(While security officers were assisting Mr Andrew WAN in leaving the Chamber, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, with white flowers in hand, stood on an aisle of the Chamber, intending to walk towards the President's podium, chanting "Down with Carrie LAM" and speaking aloud; security officers moved forward to stop him)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, please leave the Chamber immediately.
(Mr SHIU Ka-chun, with white flowers in hand, stood on an aisle of the Chamber, intending to walk towards the President's podium and yelling; security officers moved forward to stop him)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr SHIU Ka-chun, please leave the Chamber immediately.
I now suspend the meeting.
10:49 am
Meeting suspended.
11:02 am
Council then resumed.
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, the Question and Answer Session today seeks to give Members an opportunity to put questions directly to the Chief Executive on the Policy Address. The Policy Address touches upon some deep-rooted problems of Hong Kong which are closely related to the long-term benefits of the public. Members are duty-bound to put questions to the Chief Executive on behalf of members of the public, so that they can have a better understanding of the implementation of policies.
I hope Members will not disrupt the order of the meeting again today so that other Members will have the opportunity to ask the Chief Executive questions.
Members will please remain standing while the Chief Executive enters the Chamber.
(While the Chief Executive was walking towards the rostrum, a few Members repeatedly chanted slogans: "Five demands, not one less!", "Carrie LAM, hands covered with blood!")
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please keep quiet.
(Mr LAM Cheuk-ting kept speaking aloud)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAM Cheuk-ting, please leave the Chamber immediately.
(Security officers moved forward to assist Mr LAM Cheuk-ting in leaving the Chamber but he refused to leave and continued to speak aloud)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAM Cheuk-ting, please leave the Chamber immediately.
(Mr LAM Cheuk-ting still spoke aloud)
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAM Cheuk-ting, please leave the Chamber immediately and give this Council an opportunity to continue with its work.
(Mr LAM Cheuk-ting still kept speaking aloud, and he finally left the Chamber with the assistance of security officers)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Chief Executive, please answer Mr CHAN Hak-kan's question.
CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Hak-kan's question is divided into two parts. The first part is whether this Policy Address has demonstrated a new style of governance.
First of all, I hope Honourable Members will understand that the 2019 Policy Address was prepared against a rather difficult background. As regards whether we have broken away from some conservative traditions or some inherent thinking, I cited a few examples at the press conference yesterday to illustrate that we had already thought outside the box. For example, we will boldly invoke the Lands Resumption Ordinance to resume some private land for developing public housing; we will entrust the Urban Renewal Authority with a new mission to provide subsidized housing and we will also provide cash allowance on a regular basis to households waiting for public rental housing allocation and other people living in adverse conditions. In addition, considering the affordability of residents, we will use public funds to subsidize some outlying island ferry services. Some Members have also suggested to me that we should determine whether fees should be collected for the use of government tolled tunnels and Control Areas from the perspective of traffic management rather than government revenue. I hope Members will understand that it is difficult for a policy address to completely discard all official thinking, but we have tried our best.
Moreover, as Hong Kong's economy is going to be in a very grave situation, the Financial Secretary and I must exercise great prudence from the perspective of public finance. Of course, Members will recall that we have a fiscal reserve of $1.1 trillion, but the annual government expenditures are now up to $600 billion, of which $440 billion are recurrent expenditures. Regardless of whether the economic situation is favourable or not, it is difficult to reduce these recurrent expenditures. If the SAR Government implements some initiatives 206 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019 with serious impacts on public finance at this time, we must make serious and careful considerations. Precisely for this reason, the Government may not be able to meet all demands in respect of people's livelihood or other areas raised by Members. We are concerned about the "silver age group" mentioned by Mr CHAN. For a certain period of time in the past, the Labour and Welfare Bureau had some special measures for the middle-aged and the elderly, especially in encouraging them to seek employment. In this regard, we are willing to do more, hoping to encourage and support the middle-aged and the elderly to join the job market.
As to the second part of Mr CHAN's question, all of us present are extremely worried about the chaos in society today. In the Policy Address, I went to great lengths to describe the sadness and distress of the public in the face of such a situation. Nevertheless, to restore calm in Hong Kong, the first priority is that the community as a whole should work together to combat violence and say "no" to violence. In this connection, Hong Kong and foreign places attach great importance to the rule of law; therefore, I stated in the Policy Address yesterday that the SAR Government will make full effort to end violence. We will also support the Police Force to strictly enforce the law. I believe the prosecution agencies and the Judiciary will handle these matters in the future …
(Mr Gary FAN yelled)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Gary FAN, please leave the Chamber.
(Mr Gary FAN, holding up a placard, dashed to the President's podium and chanted slogans: "Five demands, not one less!", "Down with Carrie LAM, probe police brutality!"; security offices moved forward to stop him. Mr FAN kept chanting slogans and speaking aloud, he finally left the Chamber with the assistance of security officers)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Chief Executive, please continue.
CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): Apart from strictly enforcing the law, I understand that the community has also put forward other demands on the Government. Therefore, the Policy Address delivered yesterday sought to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019 207 propose a new policy direction or objective for issues of utmost concern to the community in a bid to address the anxiety and dissatisfaction of members of the community.
The third part is certainly the so-called political response. On 4 September, I responded to four areas, in particular, the work on two areas. One of which is to establish a dialogue platform, and diversified dialogue has been launched. The SAR Government, including me and various Secretaries of Departments and Directors of Bureaux, will continue to listen to the views expressed by various sectors of the community with great modesty. On the other hand, we are approaching and identifying social leaders, experts and academics in the hope of establishing an independent committee to examine the conflicts and other deep-rooted problems currently existing in society, with a view to finding a way out for Hong Kong.
MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): President, I have just received a request from a police officer who asked me to follow up with his request. He asked the Chief Executive whether, apart from the "three guarantees", an additional "guarantee" could be provided to them. He said that at present when they were on duty, not only were their lives at stake with threats such as throat slashing, Molotov cocktail and Improvised Explosive Device attacks, but their families were also subject to cyber-bullying. Even their children have been bullied. Chief Executive, what measure will you and your team take to guarantee that police officers will not be exposed to danger when they are on duty and their families will not be bullied?
CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): I thank Mr CHAN for his concern about police officers. As a matter of fact, the Police Force has made considerable efforts over the past four months or so. Therefore, in the Policy Address, I have extended my special thanks for the efforts of the Police Force and indicated my continuous support for its law enforcement.
Within the Government, we have also coordinated a number of departments to support the work of the Police Force on all fronts. At the press conference conducted more than a week ago, the media was briefed by the Chief Secretary for Administration on how various departments support the work of the Police Force as detailed explanation of certain areas of work in public is difficult. 208 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019
I myself had met with the Police Force Council Staff Associations and listened to their views to see what more could be done to enhance our support for the Police Force.
With regard to the cases of cyber-bullying and doxxing mentioned by Mr CHAN, actions have already been taken by the Privacy Commissioner for Personal Data. In fact, learning from this experience, we are very willing to review the laws of Hong Kong, hoping that future laws can be enhanced where necessary to enable us to better combat the current large-scale online doxxing and bullying.
Other support provided to the Police Force include, inter alia, as Members may be aware, we have successfully secured an interim injunction order to protect police quarters and other disciplined services quarters. I can tell Members that we are particularly concerned about the children of police officers. However, as I have said just now, it is not appropriate to discuss certain areas of work in public.
(Mr Charles Peter MOK indicated his wish to raise a point of order)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Charles Peter MOK, what is your point of order?
MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): President, have I gone to the wrong venue? Is this the Question and Answer Session between the Chief Executive and Legislative Council Members, or a question and answer session of the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong ("DAB")? The first three Members to raise questions all belong to DAB, and their questions are connected with police officers who are most hated by Hong Kong people and given zero mark. These Members have taken up all their question time to support the Police …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Charles Peter MOK, this is not a point of order.
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MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): President, is this a fair Chief Executive's Question and Answer Session or a question and answer session of DAB?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Charles Peter MOK, according to the House Rules, Members who have asked the least number of questions at previous sessions are given priority to ask questions. Since there are three Members who have only asked questions once, namely Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Mr LAU Kwok-fan and Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, I have therefore given them priority to ask questions.
MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): President, it is precisely this kind of institutional violence that has infuriated Hong Kong people. Five demands, not one less!
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think everyone has witnessed a very large-scale institutional violence today.
MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): Only people in power can create violence …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): This is not a matter of having power or not, but a matter of the number of times questions were asked.
(Mr AU Nok-hin indicated his wish to raise a point of order)
MR AU NOK-HIN (in Cantonese): President, how come the present situation is described as "institutional violence"? Mr CHAN Hak-kan just now …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr AU, this is not a point of order.
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MR AU NOK-HIN (in Cantonese): President, listen to me first. He and the Chief Executive were suspected of perverting the course of justice just now because …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr AU, please sit down. Mr LAU Kwok-fan, please ask your question.
(Mr AU Nok-hin continued to speak aloud while standing)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr AU, please sit down.
MR AU NOK-HIN (in Cantonese): President, you dared stop me from speaking.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr AU, I am, precisely, stopping you from speaking because it is not yet your turn, please sit down. Mr LAU Kwok-fan, please ask your question.
(Mr AU Nok-hin indicated his wish to speak again)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr AU Nok-hin, what is your question?
MR AU NOK-HIN (in Cantonese): How can you be qualified to be the President? How dare you say "I am, precisely, stopping you from speaking"? The Chief Executive was suspected of perverting the course of justice …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr AU, you were not raising a point of order, please sit down.
(Mr KWONG Chun-yu indicated his wish to raise a point of order)
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr KWONG Chun-yu, what is your point of order?
MR KWONG CHUN-YU (in Cantonese): President, according to Rule 39(b) of the Rules of Procedure ("RoP"), Members are allowed to interrupt. I now request you, in accordance with RoP 41 on "Contents of Speeches", to withdraw the earlier remark "I am, precisely, stopping you from speaking". As the dignified President of the Legislative Council, you should not speak in this way. I am now requesting you, in a calm and peaceful manner, to withdraw the remark.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I am not going to withdraw the remark. Mr LAU Kwok-fan, please ask your question.
(Some Members shouted in their seats "This is a point of order")
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): This is not a point of order. If Members hinder the Council proceedings by abusing the point of order procedure, I will consider their conduct grossly disorderly. Mr LAU Kwok-fan, please ask your question.
MR LAU KWOK-FAN (in Cantonese): President, before asking my question, I would like to highlight that just now some Members have confused the facts as the speaking order of Members has actually been set out very clearly …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU, please state your question directly.
MR LAU KWOK-FAN (in Cantonese): Alright. After the Chief Executive's delivery of the Policy Address yesterday, we visited the districts to gauge public opinion and received many views from the public on the Government. Due to the time constraint, I would focus on two points. My first point is similar to a point raised by Mr CHAN Hak-kan. Many people consider that the Hong Kong SAR is apparently in a state of anarchy; the Government is unable to govern Hong Kong and government departments are not acting with one heart and mind. 212 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019
The Chief Executive has repeatedly expressed sadness over the current situation earlier, and I believe everyone in Hong Kong is devastated. However, the people are also desperate for the Chief Executive and the SAR Government to introduce measures to resolve the situation. May I ask what measures will the Chief Executive put in place to resolve the situation so that Hong Kong people can resume their normal lives?
Second, many public rental housing ("PRH") tenants have asked me when they could purchase their own PRH flats. The Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong ("DAB") has all along advocated reintroducing the Tenants Purchase Scheme ("TPS") in the hope that more people can buy their own PRH flats. Although the Policy Address delivered yesterday touches on TPS, the proposal therein to accelerate the sale of unsold flats in the 39 estates already under TPS is nothing more than old wine in a new bottle. Thus, many people query why the Government would not consider extending the scope of TPS beyond the 39 estates. I hope the Chief Executive will respond to the question on when flats in other PRH estates can be put up for sale.
CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): I thank Mr LAU for the question. Regarding the current governance of the SAR Government, I can tell Mr LAU and other Members that despite the very chaotic state in our society and despite the grudges and grievances held by the public against the current-term Government, we are still making great efforts to enable the society to operate normally. I hope that Members will understand that the whole Government―certainly not just the Secretaries of Departments and Directors of Bureaux and myself―but also include the 180 000-strong Civil Service, as well as other public organizations, particularly the Mass Transit Railway Corporation Limited and the Airport Authority Hong Kong, etc., have been making enormous efforts at this difficult time to enable the normal operation of the society. There are certainly many reasons for this chaos and I believe Members will do their own analyses and form their own views. I have also pointed out earlier that in order to resolve this chaos, it is most important that we uphold the rule of law and safeguard our core values.
Therefore, if anyone suggests the Chief Executive to do certain work to resolve this chaos, but such work contravenes the rule of law and deviates from the essential principle of "one country, two systems", I am afraid I cannot do so. What I will do for certain is to deal with the current problems in accordance with LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019 213 the rule of law. When I answered Mr CHAN Hak-kan's question earlier, I have listed our work in this respect. Here, I would also appeal to everyone in Hong Kong to sever ties with violence. If many in our society still express understanding towards the acts of the minority rioters, it will make these rioters commit even worse acts and it will take us further away from reaching our goal of resolving the chaos.
Second, I understand that Mr LAU has been very concerned over the years about the proposal of reintroducing TPS, i.e. selling more PRH flats to the existing PRH tenants. Mr LAU may have noticed that I have taken the initiative to respond to this issue in the Policy Address. I have no objection to reintroducing TPS, since I understand the home ownership needs of PRH tenants. As these tenants have higher incomes and better financial conditions, they would like to purchase the flats in which they are living. In fact, over the past two-odd years, I have been hoping to better meet the home ownership needs of these tenants. However, the facts tell us that there is currently a serious shortage of PRH flats and the waiting time for PRH allocation can be as long as 5.4 years; it is thus really difficult to introduce the proposal. This has also prompted me to state in the Policy Address that housing is an issue of justice and relates to the allocation of limited housing resources. Hence, we cannot introduce the proposal for the time being because as I understand it, more than 8 000 PRH flats recovered by the Hong Kong Housing Authority ("HA") each year can be allocated to other needy families on the PRH Waiting List. On this point, I would add the footnote that as we become more confident about the PRH supply, I will ask HA to seriously study the proposal with a view to responding more positively to the home ownership demands of PRH tenants. Nevertheless, as a short-term measure, we will at least ask HA to accelerate the sale of 42 000 flats in the 39 PRH estates which have already been put up for sale, so that the home ownership aspirations of those prospective PRH tenants can be met.
MR LAU KWOK-FAN (in Cantonese): Chief Executive, would you promise the public that you would study the reintroduction of TPS? When TPS was first introduced, not all PRH estates were put up for sale in one go; they were introduced in phases and eventually, 39 PRH estates were covered under TPS. Thus, Chief Executive, what you said just now might not be correct. You can consider putting up PRH estates for sale in phases; would you conduct such study?
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CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): Mr LAU, as I told you earlier, my current position is that HA will seriously study the proposal when we become more confident about the overall PRH supply. As to when we should feel confident about the PRH supply, the answer surely relates to the issue of land supply. If the multi-pronged measures stated in the Policy Address for increasing housing sites can give us the confidence of an adequate supply in the short, medium and long term, we will certainly be happy to review the situation and consider the proposal.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): So far, only two Members have asked their questions. When Members ask questions later on, please be as concisely as possible so that more Members can put questions to the Chief Executive.
Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, please state your question.
(Mr AU Nok-hin indicated his wish to raise a point of order)
MR AU NOK-HIN (in Cantonese): I wish to seek elucidation from the Chief Executive. The "home-ownership dream" mentioned by her just now is actually only a scam. A substantial raise in the loan‑to‑value ratios will eventually push property prices up to a level that is even more unaffordable to young people …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr AU, that is not a point of order.
MR AU NOK-HIN (in Cantonese): Does she want young people to become owners of negative equity assets?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr AU, please put this question when it is your turn to ask question.
MR AU NOK-HIN (in Cantonese): Can she elucidate this point?
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019 215
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr AU, you have put a question instead of seeking elucidation just now. You can seek elucidation from the Chief Executive on other occasions.
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, Chief Executive, the root of the riots should have stemmed from within the Legislative Council. The vandalism caused by Members of the pan-democratic camp on 1 July was clear to all …
(Mr Kenneth LEUNG indicated his wish to raise a point of order)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Kenneth LEUNG, what is your point of order?
MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, may I ask what evidence does Mr LEUNG Che-cheung have to accuse pan-democratic Members of vandalism?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, can you clarify?
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): I pointed out that some Members led rioters into the Legislative Council Complex to vandalize the place on 1 July and obstructed the Police's anti-riot efforts on the streets. In view of this, I hope that the Chief Executive will take vigilant enforcement actions.
Chief Executive, you have not devoted much coverage to welfare in the Policy Address …
(Mr Alvin YEUNG indicated his wish to raise a point of order)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Alvin YEUNG, what is your point of order?
216 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019
MR ALVIN YEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I ask Mr LEUNG Che-cheung to specify who he is pointing fingers at. All of us know who the "pan-democrats" are in this Council. Mr LEUNG Che-cheung should not make oblique accusations, nor should he think he could circumvent the rule of order by not naming names. May I ask Mr LEUNG Che-cheung to be specific, and do not make oblique accusations.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YEUNG, you have raised a point of order. Please sit down. Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, please clarify your point.
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, everyone could watch the television footage and saw what happened on 1 July. There is no need for me to clarify.
(Mr Alvin YEUNG spoke aloud while standing)
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Alvin YEUNG, please do not interrupt me. This is my turn to ask a question.
(Several Members spoke aloud while standing)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please sit down. Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, please go on with your question.
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Chief Executive, you have not devoted much coverage to welfare in the Policy Address, you only mentioned the Working Family Allowance …
(Several Members spoke aloud while standing)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG Che-cheung has already clarified his point.
(Several Members kept speaking aloud while standing)
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019 217
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I have asked Mr LEUNG Che-cheung to clarify, and I hold that he has already made a clarification. Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, would you like to clarify further?
(Several Members kept speaking aloud)
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I would like to proceed with my question. While many will benefit from the allowances under the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance Scheme, I am also concerned about …
(Ms Alice MAK indicated her wish to raise a point of order)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms Alice MAK, what is your point of order?
MS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): President, since many Members have sought clarification from Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, could you suspend the meeting to review the video recording to find out what Mr LEUNG Che-cheung said earlier, so as to ascertain what other Members want him to clarify? I have quite forgotten what he has said.
(A number of Members spoke aloud in their seats)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please do not speak recklessly. Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, a Member has pointed out just now that you mentioned pan-democratic Members in your speech. Will you withdraw your remark or make a clarification?
(A number of Members spoke in their seats)
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, as I said just now, the facts broadcast on television were seen by all. There is no need for me to further clarify. Please allow me to continue with my question to the Chief Executive.
(A number of Members yelled in their seats)
218 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please keep quiet. Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, please continue with your question.
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I noticed that the Chief Executive had not, in the Policy Address, adopted DAB's proposal to introduce a "semi-elderly" card for people aged between 60 and 64 …
(Dr Helena WONG indicated her wish to raise a point of order)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Helena WONG, what is your point of order?
DR HELENA WONG (in Cantonese): President, I demand that Mr LEUNG Che-cheung withdraw the accusation he just made. He accused pan-democratic Members of leading rioters into the Legislative Council Complex to vandalize the place on 1 July. This is a very serious accusation which bears legal liability. I demand that he withdraw this false accusation.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, did you just make a false allegation? Will you withdraw your remark?
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I have already made a clarification. We could see from television footage that several pan-democratic Members, including Dr CHENG Chung-tai, led outsiders into the Chamber to "do" something, unless pan-democratic Members do not consider Dr CHENG Chung-tai one of them.
(Several Members spoke aloud in their seats)
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, can I carry on with my speech?
(Mr AU Nok-hin indicated his wish to raise a point of order)
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019 219
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr AU Nok-hin, what is your point of order?
MR AU NOK-HIN (in Cantonese): President, Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's accusation has defamed me personally. On the day of 1 July, I was also present in the Chamber but I was dissuading the protesters from damaging the artefacts inside the Chamber, rather than abetting them to cause destruction, as alleged by Mr LEUNG. His accusation constituted defamation. You can review the video recording. I was dissuading the protesters from damaging the artefacts and facilities in the Chamber …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): If Members keep entangling with this issue, the meeting will not be able to proceed.
MR AU NOK-HIN (in Cantonese): These people's defamation can incriminate us. I must ask them to stop making irresponsible remarks.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr AU Nok-hin, please sit down. Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, please continue with your question.
(Several Members spoke in their seats)
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, the incident is still under investigation by the Police. It is pointless to discuss it further.
(Mr AU Nok-hin remained standing and yelled together with a number of Members)
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): May I ask Members not to clamour? You are clamouring.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr AU Nok-hin, please sit down.
220 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, please handle this situation. How can Members clamour in this Chamber?
I wish to ask the Chief Executive again about the welfare of people aged between 60 and 64. At present, people of this age group do not have any welfare benefits. Hence, DAB has suggested the provision of a "semi-elderly" card to them. In this Policy Address, however, the Chief Executive has not provided these people with $2 concessionary transport fare and health care voucher, which is unfair to them because their welfare has not been attended to. Will the Chief Executive tell us her view on this issue?
CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): I understand that Mr LEUNG …
(Dr CHENG Chung-tai indicated his wish to raise a point of order)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Chung-tai, what is your point of order?
DR CHENG CHUNG-TAI (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG Che-cheung specifically mentioned my name in his speech, alleging that rioters and I went inside the Legislative Council Complex for vandalism. As a matter of fact, I am currently facing a lawsuit and his remark is liable to perverting the course of justice. I demand him to withdraw his remark.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): First, I did not hear Mr LEUNG Che-cheung …
DR CHENG CHUNG-TAI (in Cantonese): Let us review the video recording. I came down from my office upstairs after hearing him make such an allegation. Do you think I have a lot of time to spare?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Second …
(Some Members echoed Dr CHENG Chung-tai's view aloud)
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019 221
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The meeting is now suspended.
11:34 am
Meeting suspended.
11:51 am
Council then resumed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG Che-cheung has mentioned pan-democratic Members and Dr CHENG Chung-tai earlier. Mr LEUNG, will you clarify your remarks again or withdraw them?
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): What I saw on television were all facts. I am only stating the facts and I need not make any clarification.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now ask the Chief Executive to enter the Chamber.
(Dr CHENG Chung-tai stood up)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr CHENG Chung-tai, what is your point?
DR CHENG CHUNG-TAI (in Cantonese): May I ask you to consult the Legal Advisor whether Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's remark about me just now was liable to perverting the course of justice?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr CHENG, Members' remarks made in the Legislative Council are protected by the Legislative Council (Powers and Privileges) Ordinance …
222 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019
DR CHENG CHUNG-TAI (in Cantonese): I am certainly aware of this, but the lawsuit I am facing is outside the jurisdiction of the Legislative Council …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): … I can only remind Members to refrain from making similar remarks as far as possible.
DR CHENG CHUNG-TAI (in Cantonese): President, do you think Mr LEUNG Che-cheung does not need to withdraw his remark? Will you make a ruling on whether he has perverted the course of justice in Hong Kong?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): My ruling is that he has not.
DR CHENG CHUNG-TAI (in Cantonese): He has not perverted the course of justice. These are your words. Thank you.
(Dr Priscilla LEUNG stood up)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Priscilla LEUNG, what is your point?
DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): Many colleagues have raised various points of order today. As many people are watching the live broadcast now, I very much hope that the President will explain the following clearly: first, concerning the points of order raised by opposition Members, actually you must make it clear that each Member who asks questions …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Priscilla LEUNG, please hold on.
I would like to ask the Chief Executive to enter the Chamber first. Will Members please stand.
(While the Chief Executive was entering the Chamber and walking towards the rostrum, a number of Members repeatedly chanted, "Five demands, not one less!")
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019 223
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Priscilla LEUNG, please continue with your point of order.
DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, actually the majority of points of order raised by opposition Members should be raised when they speak. As they kept chanting slogans, they wasted everyone's time.
I think the President should clarify and inform the public how the order of Members asking questions at the Chief Executive's Question and Answer Session is determined. Members should not wrongly accuse those Members who have the chance to ask questions, saying that only Members of certain political parties have the priority to ask questions. I think the President should explain clearly because some members of the public have relayed to us their wish to get a clear explanation from the President.
Second, opposition Members have indeed raised some points of order in respect of Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's speech. However, even if points of order are involved, I think the President must also reiterate to clarify certain points. In fact, we had also raised many points of order concerning their speeches in the past on grounds that they defamed us. However, all they had to say was that they were talking, in general, about certain groupings or parties, such as royalists or others, and the President would let them off the hook eventually. These incidents do not only happen during your tenure as the President. Over the past few terms of the Legislative Council, we also tried to ask them to clarify …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Priscilla LEUNG, you have raised a point of order. Please sit down.
In accordance with the House Rules, Members who have asked the least number of questions at previous Chief Executive's Question and Answer Sessions within the term of the Legislative Council are given priority to ask questions. Where there are Members with equal priority, I will use my discretion to allow Members from different parties and groupings to ask questions, so that different voices can put questions to the Chief Executive. According to the past and 224 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019 present practice, before each Question and Answer Session, Members will be provided with clear information showing the cumulative number of questions previously asked by Members.
Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, please continue with your question, or have you asked your question?
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): I have already asked my question. May I ask the Chief Executive to answer.
CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): I thank Mr LEUNG for caring about our work in respect of welfare. Mr LEUNG's question focuses on the "semi-elderly" card, which concerns the welfare for people aged between 60 and 64. His demand is to lower the age threshold for the $2 concessionary transport fare and the $2,000 health care voucher currently provided to people aged 65 or above. As I have already pointed out in my reply to Mr CHAN Hak-kan's question just now, given that Hong Kong is now in an economic downturn, we have to take this situation into consideration and be very prudent in dealing with public finance, in particular Hong Kong's population is ageing. Therefore, the task is very tough at the moment because the annual overall expenditures on the $2 concessionary transport fare and the $2,000 health care vouchers for people aged 65 or above are increasing at a very high rate. Nevertheless, I am willing to join Mr LEUNG or other Honourable Members in future to study the issue again, with a view to exploring the areas in which we may make more focused efforts to provide middle-aged and elderly people aged between 60 and 64 with more convenience in living, or to examining if we can make more targeted efforts in providing other preventive medical services for people of this age group.
Since there is no chance for me to talk about other issues today, I would like to talk about the various efforts made by the SAR Government in taking care of the grass roots over the past two years. I hope you can learn about the work we have done from the Policy Address Supplement, because it is difficult for one to just read the Policy Address and get a full picture about the work of a particular aspect. Our work is even more acutely reflected in the expenditure. Welfare expenditure was some $60 billion when we took office, yet it is now over $80 billion this year. We have actually done a lot of work. I hope Honourable LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019 225
Members will understand that given the current general economic and financial situation, we have to act prudently. However, in order to provide, on a continuous basis, a safety net to people most in need of help, it is mentioned in this year's Policy Address that we propose a host of improvement measures for recipients of Comprehensive Social Security Assistance ("CSSA") upon a comprehensive review; we also encourage able-bodied CSSA recipients to work by substantially raising the maximum amount of disregarded earnings; we also propose to increase considerably the subsidies for working families, particularly an increase of 40% to the Child Allowance. We shall continue with this effort, in the hope of providing more supportive measures for the disadvantaged in Hong Kong.
I thank Mr LEUNG for his concern.
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Chief Executive, I actually know how you would answer, talking about the economic downturn and the huge amount of expenditure. However, just now you said in your opening remarks that the Government has a huge fiscal reserve of $1.1 trillion, and there are about 550 000 people in the age group of 60 to 64 years old. Although we do not necessarily have to provide all welfare benefits to these 550 000 people in one go, it is still possible to provide them with, say, the $2 concessionary transport fare, so that they can continue to stay in employment or join social activities after retirement. The money to be invested in this regard will not be too huge, some $300 million will suffice for the purpose. Why does the Government not accede to this?
CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): President, as I pointed out just now, our consideration this year rests with the general condition and expenditures in other aspects. However, as many people aged between 60 and 64 are still in the labour market nowadays, we are very willing to discuss with Honourable Members again in future about what we should do to provide these people with more convenience in living or support. I am very willing to continue discussing the matter with Honourable Members.
226 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 October 2019
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Chief Executive's Question and Answer Session ends. The Chief Executive now leaves the Chamber. Members stand up please.
(While the Chief Executive was walking out of the Chamber, Mr Alvin YEUNG walked towards the President's podium with a placard in his hand and chanted "Down with Carrie LAM!" Security officers moved forward to stop Mr YEUNG. In this process, Mr YEUNG spoke aloud to the Chief Executive while some Members yelled)
NEXT MEETING
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now adjourn the Council until 11:00 am on Wednesday, 23 October 2019.
Adjourned accordingly at 12:00 noon.