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Transcript of Edited Interview 訪談文字節錄 蕭滋 訪談 Interview with Shaw Tze 香港藝術史研究──第二期 香港藝術館及亞洲藝術文獻庫 合作計劃 Hong Kong Art History Research – Phase II A Collaboration between Hong Kong Museum of Art and Asia Art Archive Transcript of Edited Interview 訪談文字節錄 蕭滋 訪談 Interview with Shaw Tze 訪問員: 李世莊 Interviewer: Jack Lee 2015 年 6 月 9 日 9 June, 2015 香港藝術館 Hong Kong Museum of Art 中資出版機構在 1960 - 1970 年代香港藝術生態中所扮演的角色 The role of mainland-funded publishing organisations in 1960s-1970s Hong Kong’s art ecology Shaw: I was primarily interested in art. But since I joined China International Book Trading Corporation in Beijing, I thought I would stay in publishing forever because the times advocated having a “life-long career” whether it was a life-long revolution or a life-long commitment to publishing. So I never thought about becoming an art practitioner then. I was relocated to Hong Kong from Beijing in 1951. At the time many countries and regions imposed embargo against China, which made it difficult for the bookstore to set stocks from the overseas. So we did it through Hong Kong. When I first arrived in Hong Kong, more of the city’s residents were pro-communist. It was right after mainland China’s liberation, and the nationalists were so corrupted that they were expelled from mainland China. The communists took over the power thanks to their initial integrity. They aspired to good governance. Although they were leftists, they were idealists who fought for national glory. Therefore, I think Hong Kong people at the time were sympathetic to them. This was beneficial to our publishing work. Apart from retail business, Sinminchu Publishing and Joint Publishing were also the general distributors of books published by the mainland, which included a great variety of illustration and picture books. Sinminchu Publishing also imported and distributed books from the Soviet Union and Neo-democratic nations. These also included art related books. I was particularly impressed that during the Soviet occupation of Germany, the whole 香港藝術史研究──第二期 香港藝術館及亞洲藝術文獻庫 合作計劃 Hong Kong Art History Research – Phase II A Collaboration between Hong Kong Museum of Art and Asia Art Archive collection of a museum in Dresden dedicated to antique paintings was shipped to the Soviet Union. Later when the collection returned to Germany, the Soviet Union published a catalogue of the Dresden collection. It was a gigantic picture book. We ordered hundreds of copies, which was a huge order at the time. I have learned a little Russian in Beijing, so I translated and distributed the introduction in Chinese. Huang Mao（Huang Meng-tian） also introduced this book in an article he wrote in newspaper. Meanwhile, mainland China distributed a lot of pictorial books through us. I was involved in the distribution of the Famous Paintings of Guangdong as well. The mainland was short of high quality publishing and binding materials to print catalogues of that scale, so Sinminchu Publishing had to help with purchasing materials in Hong Kong. Lee: Were those books distributed in Hong Kong or in South East Asia too? Shaw: They were mainly sent to Nanyang, mainly Hong Kong, Macau and South East Asia. Shaw: Huang Meng-tian was the chief editor of the Artist in 1970s. It was during the Cultural Revolution and China produced no publication. This was a favourable context of the Artist as a publication. It was able to reach a bigger market in China. It was considered as a successful art magazine and ran for many years. Lee: Articles in the Artist are a major source of information on early art history of Hong Kong. Besides Huang Meng-tian, did other seasoned artists contribute articles to the magazine? Shaw: I think Hong Kong authors were not the only ones who contributed to the Artist, many mainland authors also wrote. Mainland authors had nowhere to publish their articles during the Cultural Revolution. The Artist was running in Hong Kong, so it was natural that many mainland artists sent their articles to Hong Kong. Shaw: Joint Publishing started publishing books after the 1967 riots. Actually it was after the Cultural Revolution. The Communist Party’s policy towards Hong Kong was to “take full advantage via long-term planning”. How was the Party going to make use of Hong Kong as a free port? Such as communicating and connecting with overseas, importing materials and conducting exchange. But as the mainland’s politics leaned left, Hong Kong also leaned left, this was inevitable. You had no choice but to lean left. So things were volatile at the time, and it was unhealthy. When the Cultural Revolution reached its climax, the anti-colonial riots also took place in Hong Kong. It was using a workers’ strike as a means to confront the Hong Kong colonial government. The whole political climate was very chaotic, and I went to jail for a year for this as well. I now feel that our approach was wrong at the time. After the riots, we came to realise slowly that the mainland’s policies in those years were problematic. At the time, mainland-funded publishers in Hong Kong resumed work in ernest, which means publishing beyond compilations of political quotes. Real publishing should encompass a variety of topics. Joint Publishing took the lead as 香港藝術史研究──第二期 香港藝術館及亞洲藝術文獻庫 合作計劃 Hong Kong Art History Research – Phase II A Collaboration between Hong Kong Museum of Art and Asia Art Archive institutions like Sinminchu Publishing, The Commercial Press and Chung Hwa Book Co. had not developed any corresponding systems. I was leading the work at Joint Publishing. My duties included commissioning writing from authors in mainland China, Hong Kong and overseas. The commissioned writing promoted Chinese culture. In the past, the goal would be to promote the ideologies of Mao, Marx and Lenin. Now, it was about Chinese culture and overseas culture exchange. At the time the entire organisation was reformed, from retail to editorial to distribution, and we moved the retail store to Queen Victoria Street. The new store reformed the layout of Western retail and provided an array of services. In terms of publishing, we started to publish works by Hong Kong and overseas authors on topics including art. We also set up a gallery inside the bookstore - the Joint Publishing Exhibition Hall. We organised exhibitions ourselves, and also rented the venue to Hong Kong artists for a nominal sum or sometimes even for free. We used to only communicate with “leftist” artists and schools. We later got to know people like Liu Kuo-sung, Wucius Wong and other modern ink painting artists through publishing projects. Since they had the connections, we asked them to help line up writing commissions and exhibitions from overseas. Lee: In your opinion, was there any difference between the works by the “leftist” and the “rightist” artists? Or was it more about one’s political affiliation or stance? Shaw: I think the difference is not in their works. In fact, the “left” and the “right” camps at the time were synonyms for the pro-communist and pro-nationalist factions respectively. These labels are much less loaded nowadays. But in the 1950s and 1960s, there was a clear divide between the “left” and the “right”. To me, the works by painters from both camps were not so different. You did not need to follow the Soviet style even if you were a “leftist”. If you leaned towards the “right”, what would a Chinese Nationalist style be? It would not be so different. We all shared the same tradition, and were divided only by political views. “Leftist” painters in Hong Kong were not affected by the Soviet style. I cannot say they were completely unaffected, but the soviet influence was minimum. Therefore, there was little difference in the works by the “leftist” and the “rightist” painters in Hong Kong. But the genres of modern ink painting and traditional ink painting are two distinct trajectories. Lee: Then we are talking about distinction between traditional and modern ink painting. *** .
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