The Skating Lesson Podcast Transcript TSL: 2013 World Championships Preview with PJ Kwong

Jenny Kirk: Hello, and welcome to The Skating Lesson Podcast! I’m Jennifer Kirk, a former US ladies competitor and a three-time world team member.

David Lease: I’m David Lease. I’m a figure skating blogger and a current adult skater. Now today, we are absolutely thrilled to have Canadian journalist and announcer PJ Kwong on the podcast. PJ recently had the temerity to compare and to fine cheddar and discuss Meryl and Charlie as being Kraft singles. And we’d love to discuss all of it with PJ today here on our preview of the 2013 World Championships about to be held in London, Ontario.

[PJ Kwong joins podcast]

Jenny: So, PJ, after Four Continents, with kind of a controversial competition in the dance event with the Americans and the Canadians, you wrote on your blog – you compared the two teams to each other. And you said that the program components and the technical elements were very similar in terms of – it could go either way. But you said not the choreography – you said, “regardless of the result, the difference between Virtue and Moir’s Carmen and ’s Notre Dame programs are like comparing a fine old cheddar cheese to Kraft slices. Both are yummy, both have their place, but one is definitely finer than the other.” Elaborate. What do you mean by that because I just – I would say Kraft singles and cheddar cheese – I mean, they’re in two different places in the grocery store! Like – I mean that seems a very, you know, big difference. So, let’s hear your opinions on it.

Dave: That was shocking from a Canadian!

PJ Kwong: Do you know, what was so interesting was that, the fact that I had a fan actually sent me a long letter saying that they found it to be highly insulting. So I wrote them back, and I said, “actually, as a single mother of three, I would not have survived motherhood without Kraft slices to be honest.” So I really do think of them both as ____. So Kraft slices to me are very ordinary, they’re pedestrian. You’re right – they are in one place in the grocery store. And then a fine old cheddar is going to be someplace else that’s a little bit more refined and a little bit more finer. When I look at Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir and and Charlie White, I see two outstanding dance teams. When you put those two short dances together, to me, it’s – it’s splitting hairs. I don’t know which way to go when you put the two short dances together. If we had Die Fledermaus this year and Carmen this year, we’re talking apples and apples. I don’t happen to believe that the program that Meryl and Charlie have for their is anything particularly unusual or original. I’ve seen it before, and I’ve seen much better from them. And because they are as strong as they are, I just think that they’re capable of much more. It’s a very ordinary program to my mind. Now when I look at the concept and the choreography, so this is Notre Dame de Paris, he is supposed to be the hunchback of Notre Dame. He’s supposed to look a little bit more tortured. He doesn’t appear tortured to me. So if you’re gonna use a program or a body of music – not a body of music – but a piece of music that personifies, sorry, conjures up an image of something, then you’d better deliver on the image as far as I’m concerned. That’s my thing. So when we flip it against Carmen, Carmen is the perfect presentation of that theme. So that’s why – that’s where my apples and oranges comes in. I think that both teams truly are outstanding. But I think in this case, you know, whenever like the at the Four Continents, Tessa and Scott won the short dance by 0.44. I mean, really, you can’t get any tighter than these two teams. But this year, the free dances, for me – they’re not the same. So…

Jenny: I was going to say, it’ll be interesting also to see the event in , how that plays into the crowd. I didn’t mean to cut you off… PJ: No, not at all!

Jenny: Dave, what are your opinions on the two free dances? How do you think they stack up?

Dave: Well, I think it’s interesting that PJ wants to see Die Fledermaus, because it lost to Tessa and Scott last year. With it, they preferred Tessa and Scott. Well, it’s Tessa – what kind of cheese when Tessa Virtue channels Audrey Hepburn for the seventeenth time? What kind of cheese is that, I want to know? But no, I think that…

PJ: Do you think that she’s done Audrey Hepburn before?

Dave: I think that Tessa gives off a vibe – we knew that she loved Audrey Hepburn without her even skating it. And I think that last year, people kind of were like, “again?” You know, like, because they had done – where Tessa’s very regal. Which is why I love Carmen this year. I was so excited to see Tessa groping herself. And I think that it was so shocking! Like, Tessa Virtue was in lily white at the Olympics, and she looks like that girl who has everything organized in her room with a white carpet. You know, I just imagine everything being perfect. So to see her being Carmen is really shocking. I think Carmen loses me in the middle a little bit where the music changes. And that’s one thing about – I personally – Tessa is exquisite. She has the extensions that Meryl can never dream of having. I think Meryl and Charlie have come so far since 2010, and I think that if you were going to make that comment about cheese in 2010, I would agree with you a hundred and tenfold when comparing Phantom of the Opera to Mahler. I think – never gonna have Tessa’s extension – I think that they have a little bit more power throughout the program which, to me, Tessa and Scott have never looked as physically prepared or – I know that she has a chronic leg issue. And they’ve never looked as well trained as Meryl and Charlie have. And I think that they just win kind of on speed. Their combination spin is a little bit faster than Tessa and Scott’s, and to me, I wonder about Tessa’s health. I mean, she’s had chronic leg issues, and they’ve never seemed to have that same momentum that they had in 2010 when they were – you just knew that if they put down that long program, it was tens crossing the board. So to me, I think the program – I think Carmen is brilliant. And I love the beginning, I love the end. I preferred the old lift at the end, when she was standing on him – it was so dramatic. But I understand that they had lift, you know, timing issues. The middle section loses it when they go into the footwork sequence. It gets a little bit – it loses the momentum of the program, and to me, that’s the only difference because I was such a fan of it. But I have to say, we have never seen Tessa and Scott perform Carmen perfectly. They had a little bit of stumbles in the beginning of the year, and I think a lot of people wonder, you know, can Meryl and Charlie win in Canada? There’s judges home court advantage, but if Tessa and Scott actually performed Carmen to its maximum at the world championships, I think that could be an entirely different ballgame because we’ve never seen them deliver it completely to its…

PJ: I didn’t mean to interrupt, but I – I’m basing my ideas on everybody skating perfectly. If Meryl and Charlie had skated Die Fledermaus perfectly last year, they would have been world champions. Truly. They lost it because it was not perfection. That free dance, though, was absolutely sensational. When they’re able to really demonstrate that in a free dance program, I love it. I just – I buy into it completely. And I think that – again, I think that they’re sensational ice dancers. There’s not – I would love nothing more than to see everybody skate well at worlds across the board. That would be a dream as far as I’m concerned. I think that if Tessa and Scott pare down the free dance a little bit so that they’re not compromising the speed and flow, because I absolutely see your point, Dave – if they pare it down slightly for worlds but still deliver that kind of raw intensity, if both teams skate well, I think it’s Tessa and Scott’s is what I think.

Jenny: What did you think, PJ? Dave, you mentioned some of the leg injuries that Tessa has been bothered by. What did you think about them stopping in that program? It was kind of – we didn’t know what was going on. Dave and I did the Four Continents recap show, we thought maybe she had breathing problems, nobody really knew and then it came out that she did have leg cramps. What did you make of that?

PJ: I felt terrible. I mean, two surgeries, you know, two different years where it’s just been so difficult. I mean, when they did that rock ‘n roll program, they’d only done something like two or three complete run-throughs of that program, and one of them – two of those run-throughs were in competition. So I just think, you know, it’s a heartbreak. When you work so hard for something and then your body betrays you, in a way, I just – I feel sick for any skater that is working through a difficult injury. I just – given the amount of work and sacrifice and the amount of years, I mean, look at you, Jenny. You know better than anybody what that’s like, and when your body just doesn’t do what you want it to do, I think that’s really tough.

Jenny: I completely agree. I think the only thing that was a little bit odd to me, just – this is my opinion as an athlete, is – when they stopped the program, it didn’t seem like she, you know, tended to the leg. And I think that – that was just weird. It was just a weird situation to watch and Scott, I think – we can talk about this, Dave, you wanted to discuss it – he seemed to have a little bit of an attitude toward the camera man, and it seemed like it was one of the most bizarre things I’ve ever seen in a skating event – that I didn’t understand as an athlete how she could have recovered so quickly. It seemed just a little bit odd to me that all of a sudden they were then able to finish the program. What did you make of it, Dave? And what do you make of, just Scott? In terms of – I think he’s unique in that he does say how he feels, and I kind of like that in a skater.

Dave: I love it. And I’ll start and go because I really hate when people pretend to be close friends, and I don’t think Meryl and Tessa go for lunch. They’re fierce competitors. I think that they respect each other, but I don’t think they’re getting their nails done at a salon together. The only three times I can remember ice dancers stopping are Tessa and Scott in 2011, Tessa and Scott in 2013 at Four Continents, and the Shibutanis earlier this year. Those are the only skaters I really remember stopping a program for something like a cramp. Now, Tessa hasn’t talked about her injury much. So we never really know what the status is about her skating. I know that she eschewed having the third surgery for her leg in 2011. And so she’s skated [audio cuts out] really curious. I think we could have a two hour discussion with her on how she’s skating differently and what the status really is. And sometimes, you know, Tessa would say that she was fine in the past because she didn’t want to make excuses, and we heard that it was a bigger injury. So we never really know what’s going on with them, which leads to all sorts of speculation why they’re stopping, you know. Are they off? And I think it just breeds into it, but I’m, you know, curious about how her leg is, what they’re training is like. I would love to be in Canton every single day and just watch it. As far as Scott Moir goes, people have so many opinions, you know – Scott’s a fresh air, he… a lot choice words you’ll see people say. And I think it’s refreshing to see that when someone loses, they’re angry. And when someone wins, they’re ecstatic. It goes into that thrill of victory and the agony of defeat that the world of sports used to talk about. And I think that Scott [audio cuts out] used to that. I think that half of the interest in Tessa and Scott is their fans. And everyone never knows – is he in love with her? Does she like him but she’s with someone else and they have that chemistry that no one ever knows and keeps it interesting from season to season. I was – he does seem to get very amped up in competition, and that’s his way. And personally, I can’t wait for the press conferences. Win or lose, I am just there because I love watching what he’s going to say. What’s your take on him, because he’s not very stereotypically Canadian. We think of Canadians being like Joannie Rochette or Jeff Buttle and them being very polite. So what do you – what do you make [audio cuts out].

PJ: [audio still cut out] since he was about nine. And because I – his oldest brother Danny, who was also an ice dancer, Danny was in my ice nightmare group, which was an all-male synchronized skating group where we raised money for breast cancer. So, I’ve known the Moirs for a very long time. And Scott’s the baby brother of three boys, so if you don’t think he didn’t have to learn how to hold his own in a house – in a rough-and-tumble house of three boys, he certainly did. He comes from a home of – his, both his mother and his aunt are figure skating coaches. And there is not a young man who is more respectful that Scott Moir. The fact that he gets mad when the results come out and that he’s put his heart and soul into it – good for him, because if he didn’t care that much, I don’t think we’d see the on the ice – you know, we see so many skaters. This is what drives me more crazy. A skater comes off the ice, they have done a complete Zamboni program, and they come off, they go, “oh, well, you know, I did my best.” No! That’s not your best! Come on, who are you kidding? So if somebody really cares about what they’re doing, then we’re gonna see that on the ice, for better or for worse. And I like it. I know the Moirs well, I know the Virtues well. And I just have nothing but admiration for both kids. But I love the fact that Scott is able to establish boundaries for himself and to be protective of Tessa because that’s the way he was raised, and that’s what they do. And I really respect that. So – in fact, for as long as I’ve known them, I still don’t take liberties ever with them. And I always ask permission if I’m able to ask them this kind of question or that kind of question because I do that of any skater. And I think that I could probably get away with more because, again, I’ve known them longer, but I just don’t think it’s fair. So I think that when you work as hard as an Olympian does, then you get to decide a little bit about how you control your life. So getting rid of the cameramen – I also get it. So – and you know what, when you think about it, off the ice, maybe after warmup, maybe the legs start to hurt, and they made the decision that they would start the free dance, see how it goes, maybe the getting up into that lift is the part that hurts most. I honestly don’t know. And maybe she thought if she got up, she wouldn’t be able to get back down without really hurting herself and landing. So we don’t know any of the stuff that went on before they took the ice, but the fact that they were able to skate it out to the end – well, good for them.

Jenny: I agree. So – oh, I’m sorry.

Dave: Yeah, and I think that one of the things we were talking about in our show is – both of these teams really seem to be very focused on getting that number one spot. We talked to Elaine Zayak recently, and she said that you have to think that you’re the best. And I honestly believe that both Meryl and Charlie and Tessa and Scott view themselves as the top dance team for their own reasons. If either one of them loses the world championship, do you see them all still staying together in Canton? Marina and Igor have obviously split up. Could you see a situation where either team leaves as they both try to make a run for the Olympic title next year?

PJ: Well, that’s an interesting question. I don’t even know how to answer that. I don’t see – I honestly don’t know how to answer that. I thought about it, of course, and I thought that if that were to happen, Tessa and Scott would probably stay where they are. I mean, that makes the most sense to me. I don’t know if Meryl and Charlie would then move over to Igor, potentially. But you know, the ice dance world at the top seems to be very crowded with very few qualified [audio cuts out]. You would say, “let’s go with the devil you know or the situation that you know.” I don’t know – what do you guys think?

Dave: Well, I don’t think that Meryl and Charlie were happy finishing in second place last year. They seem to be very focused on getting them back. And I think both teams, for better or worse, think that they are the best team in the world. If anyone moves, I do think that it would be Meryl and Charlie if they finish in second place because Tessa and Scott have – I’m under the understanding that Igor used to have more of a part of Meryl and Charlie, like he was like the captain of that team and Marina was the captain of Virtue and Moir, and I think – it gets an interesting situation. Their dating lives off the ice – I believe that Meryl is tied to Marina’s son. So I think that’s a whole interesting thing where, you know, I think that they did do a lot of Igor choreography in the past, so I could see that making that switch. Now, talking about switches, the Shibutanis decided to stay with , and Chock and Bates decided to go with Igor. And there was always a lot of criticism of the Shibutanis from an international ice dance community, perhaps they earned a bronze medal too soon before where everyone was comfortable with due to mistakes at those worlds. How do you see the fact that Chock and Bates have supplanted the Shibutanis? Do you think that Chock and Bates are the better team? How do you compare them?

PJ: Well, I have to tell you, the Shibutanis this year, for me, are the best they’ve ever been. I love that free dance – I think it’s just beautiful. And it’s tailored to them superbly. For me, I like the fact that they look a little bit more poised, a little bit more mature. So, I prefer them. That doesn’t mean to say that Chock and Bates aren’t good. [audio cuts out] in between stage. I really like Maia and Alex and the fact that they’ve come along and they’ve really – they didn’t just rest on their laurels after their world medal. They decided to continue to sort of move forward and to really continue to evolve as skaters. So – and that free dance this year, I really love it.

Dave: How do you feel about them using the Duchesnays’ music and the Duchesnays’ concept?

PJ: Are – okay, so I’ve lost you a little bit. What do you mean?

Dave: They’re using that missing program as their short dance, which the Duchesnays used… PJ: Oh, yes! I thought you meant – I lost my marbles there for a moment. I thought you meant you wanted me to talk about the Duchesnays’ performance. Do you know what, I thought that music the first time around, when I saw it, was really quite wonderful. There’s something that has a lot of texture, let’s say, for that music. So I quite like it – I like it. But I love the free dance. I usually get stuck on one program or another, I’m terrible that way. So – I like it. What do you guys think?

Dave: I don’t think it fits the theme for this year’s short dance that well, and I think they’ve kind of struggled in the short dance. But I – do you think it’s gonna mature them, and do you think they have kind of that tough brother-sister thing to fight?

PJ: I – you know, I had a great interview with Sinead and John Kerr when I was at a show a couple of weeks ago in Peterborough, and we were talking about that. [audio cuts out] because if you get that sort of, do a lovey- dovey program, it is definitely kind of icky. So I think that Maia and Alex have done well. You’re right, though – with trying to put in the polka into the middle of that, it is kind of tricky. Yeah, you’re right.

Dave: So, speaking of lovey-dovey programs, last year I really felt that and were robbed of the bronze medal at worlds. I still feel passionately about it that there was perhaps the judges didn’t want the North Americans sweep two years in a row. How do you see them doing? They kind of fell. They weren’t at the Grand Prix final this year, and I think a lot of it had to do with who they were against, but they’re – they finished behind Bobrova and Soloviev, who were behind them at the world championships. How do you see them doing? She obviously broke her leg. Her coming back for worlds – how do you see the fitting into this year’s event?

PJ: Well, I’m so thrilled for them that they’re back because this was a huge goal, and the fact that they’re even on the ice considering the break that she had and how she explained it to me, I’m amazed. You know, I – it’s kind of a big question mark for me, to tell you the truth. I like their free dance, if they’re doing [audio cuts out] a lot, but they were starting to rework it when she went down. And the fact that they didn’t make the Grand Prix Final – they told me that they were using that time in order to sort of work on the free dance and to sort of create more opportunities for them to evolve and to really highlight the characters that they were doing. So I guess Andrew continued to work a little bit off the ice while Kaitlyn was doing the physiotherapy on her foot. So – but they are a huge question mark to me because nobody has really seen them now since November? Is that right? Yeah, it would be because they weren’t at the Grand Prix Final, right? So, I mean, I wish them every success, truly, I do, because there’s nobody that works harder. But they’re a question mark for me as are the French team, Pechelat and Bourzat. I don’t know what’s going to happen with them either. I mean, everyone’s supposed to be at worlds but, you know, with his injury which is gonna smart when he’s trying to pick somebody up, it’s just a big huge question mark.

Dave: Well speaking of Pechelat and Bourzat, how did all you [audio cuts out] think of the Rolling Stones [audio cuts out].

PJ: Do you know, I saw it months ago, and I liked it. And I’ll tell you what I liked about it – I liked the fact that sometimes in the past, they’ve been over the top with some of their themes, and it’s been a little bit kind of coopy. So the fact that they’ve picked something that we all understand and they’ve just sort of – they put some rock ‘n roll back into it, I kind of thought it was a fresh approach for them. I liked it a lot. So – but again, they’re a bit of a question mark, whether or not the time off and trying to get trained up again, if that’s going to be enough time, I don’t know. But I thought it was a nice – it was a nice, refreshing change. And it was something that I didn’t have to think too hard about. So I like it from that standpoint.

Dave: How about you, Jen?

Jenny: I like the red pants! I am a fan of the red pants, I like red pants like that, I think it’s a statement. But – you know, yeah, they are the question mark coming in off the injury as well as Kaitlyn and Andrew. But some of their lifts – I’m kind of up and down in terms of the French team. They do a lift in the middle of their program where she’s – her legs are together and she’s – or, they come in together, and she’s leaning back. And I just think it’s messy. It kind of breaks up the flow of the program. But then the lift after that, she’s leaning back – or, he’s leaning back. And I just think it – it’s kind of, that’s how their skating is to me. There are some positives and there are some negatives, and it just – at times, it’s a little bit messy. But I think like you said, PJ, it’s a program that we can all relate to, finally something that we can latch onto. And they are my pick for the bronze medal. What do you think, Dave?

Dave: I disagree, okay, because I think while if they were doing well all fall, they would be. But the Russians, knowing the Russians, I have a Russian skating coach, and she watches all of the skating on TV. And last year, she just – she always watches Russian satellite TV, and she’d be like, “Tarasova said Bobrova, she like a piece of meat, no salt, no pepper.” And they made a coaching change. So, and there’s been so much – such a push for Bobrova and Soloviev this year. I think they’ve improved. Dance is political, and I really see them kind of. We haven’t seen Kaitlyn and Andrew, we haven’t seen the French in a while. I could see the Russians moving in for that bronze medal. I could see it magically happening, you know, where all of a sudden they’re in the mix.

PJ: I don’t think it’s magic. I think they’re really good.

Dave: And I don’t think they’re as good as the other teams. I’ll put it that way. I think the other teams are…

PJ: I think that, under Zhulin, they’re real contenders because I always liked them, to tell you the truth. When they were in 2010 and they did their side-by-side sort of sailor, Russian sailor things for their short dance – loved it. Loved the creativity, and now with this coach, I mean, I think they are a team reborn. Her posture has improved – she sort of always used to be bent at the hip. But I loved – they’re the junior world champions from, I can’t remember when. Anyway, but I’ve always liked them. So, they’re my pick for bronze because I think that, again, it doesn’t mean that the result will stay the same for next year necessarily, but I think that the work that they did in the off-season and coming into this season, I think that they – oh, that’s… [inaudible due to barking dogs]. So, I think, and the fact that they beat Kaitlyn and Andrew, I think the writing’s a little bit on the wall, and if the French and the Canadians haven’t had the chance to sort of rework their programs and have the miles on the ice, I think that they’re starting from behind the 8 ball is what I think. So…

Dave: And before we talk about our last dance team, the program that has everyone talking this year, and . What do you make of the ghosts? Because Tatiana Tarasova hates it, she made it known that they will never win with this program and that they haven’t won with this program and they won’t. What do you make of ghost? We see her mouthing the words – I think it’s a mess. I think it’s wrong. I think that they need to leave Nikolai and go to better coaching. I think they could go to Igor. What do you make of this?

PJ: I don’t like it. And I make no bones about it. I think that they’re an overrated team. I think ____ - she said that completely correctly. “I watched it for the first time, and I thought – “Qu'est-ce que c'est?” That’s French for, “what is this?” So I think that there’s a push for them as well. I don’t like them as much as I like Bobrova and Soloviev. I just – I don’t want that ghost program, I think that ghost program is terrible, there’s just nothing really to recommend it. Sorry! [in reference to barking dogs]

Dave: Jenny, how do you feel about the ghost?

Jenny: Okay! Let me say, I love the movie! I grew up just being all about the movie!

PJ: Me, too!

Jenny: Yeah, it’s a wonderful movie! I don’t know what version they’re using, but I felt when I was watching it, watching the performance, it was like I was watching Disney on Ice. I thought it was weird that she was lip- synching the last portion of music. I felt like I was tuning through the country channel of the dial, and it was just background music. And it’s a really odd movie to portray on the ice. I don’t – I don’t understand! I don’t understand how their outfits work with it. I just – I thought I was at Disney on Ice, and it really doesn’t do ANY favors for their skating. And it’s just odd. PJ: Well, you know, it’s kind of when people do things that are inauthentic to them. You know, that’s what drives me nuts. Find something that actually works for the skater, for your skaters, not just trying to bank up points and trying to move people ahead. I want to see something that actually fits the skaters, and I don’t think this program fits them very well.

Jenny: No, I completely agree.

Dave: I don’t think they’ve ever had programs that have. I think the thing with them is that she has lovely extension, she lacks a bit of power, they’re both facially just gorgeous people. But people were introduced to them at junior worlds with him shooting her in the face at the end of their Schindler’s List program. And I’m kind of left like this with them, and every single year, ever since he shot her in the face, there’s something weird with their programs every single year. I don’t that they’re in the right direction. I think that they need a complete reworking, and I agree that they’re the most overrated team out there. I love watching them because I think that they have wonderful qualities. But compared to the top teams, I don’t. So, what are your picks on the top three at the worlds? Jenny, go, PJ, go, and then I’ll give mine.

Jenny: Okay. I’m going Meryl/Charlie, Tessa and Scott, and then Pechelat and Bourzat. Am I pronouncing this right? This was Dave’s whole thing. He was doing euphonics with me yesterday. Did I pronounce their names right?

PJ: You’re pretty close. Pechelat and Bourzat [missing ts].

Jenny: Pechelat and Bourzat [this time with missing ts].

PJ: Perfect!

Jenny: Okay. All right, your turn, PJ!

PJ: I’m going Tessa and Scott, Meryl and Charlie, and Bobrova and Soloviev.

Jenny: Good job on pronunciation!

Dave: Yes! I think – I’m gonna go with Meryl and Charlie by a hair over Tessa and Scott, camera angle on Scott Moir, please, during the results! And then I would like to see Bobrova and Soloviev – I think Bobrova and Soloviev will be the bronze medalists this year.