1746 Carnarvon Tramway Bill. [ASSEMBLY 1 PrsnlExlnainPersonal Explanation.

CARNARYON-BABAkGE ISLANID TRA-M- sit right on without any more breaks. I WAY BILL. move that the House at its rising adjourn SECOND READING. till Tuesday, the 5th November. THE MINISTER FOR LANDS (Hon. Question put and passed. C. Sonmmers), in moving the second The House accordingly adjourned at reading, said: This is a very small1 21 minutes to 9 o'clock unvtil Tuesday, matter. There is a tram wayv at Carnarvon, 5th November. having a length of two miles 67 chains. The line has been constructed, and it was thought by the Government that authorisation was needed in order to work it under the Railways and Tram- ways Act of 1888. It is merely a homse tram to the new jetty at Babbage Island, connecting it with the town of Carnarvon. The intervening space was very unsuitable for a roadway, consisting as it did of lagoons and sandhanks; and the only way of bridging it was by laying down this line. I move the second reading. Wednesday, 23rd October, 1901. EON, J. W. HACKETT:- What is the cost of the line? Petition; Sunday Theatricas-REalway Adxninietraiom, Personal Explanation-Question: Railway Engine THE MINISTER FOR LANDS:- I Sparks, new Funnel -Papers ordered: 1, Prison regret I cannot at the moment say. The Warder at Fremantle Dismissal - 26 Rail way Workers, late Strike Incidents;-, o olgardle peculiar formation of the country, which Water Scheme, Correpodence-Retumn ordered ± is a, network of lakes, has made the Perth Park Board, Ptcnlara-Motin Federal Tariff, rffect on S'tate Industries; a Protest Idivi- tramway necessary. Mon) - R.C. Church Lands Amendment 'Bill (private), first reading-M9otion: Sanitary Site at Question put and passed. North Perth, to Inquire-Adjoarment. Bill read a second time. THE SPEAKER took the Chair at IN COMMITTEE. 4-3O o'clock, P.m. Bill passed through Committee without debate, reported without amendment, and PRAYERS. the report adopted. PETITION- SUNDAY THEATRICALS. ADJOURNMENT. Mn. JOHNSON presented a petition HoN. C. E. DEMPSTER: I1 should from the Synod of the Church of Eng- like to suggest to the Minister for land in Western Australia against thea.- Lands - trical companies holding performances on Taa PRESIDNTn: The hon. member is Sundays, and praying that in the event out of order, as there is nothing before of existing legislation being found insuf- the Rouse. ficient to prevent such performances, new THo MINISTER FOR LANDS (Hon. legislation should be passed. C. Sommers) : I have a good idea of what Petition received, read, and ordered to the hon. member intended to convey; be prinited; to be considered on the next and that was, seeing we have very little *Wednesday. business likely to come before the House to-morrow, and that next week the prin- RAILWAY ADMINISTRATION - PER- cipal s1h0w of the State will be held, and SONAL EXPLANATION. will occupy Tuesday and Wednesday, at Son. F. H. PLESSE (Williams):. which I know a great number of countxrv Before the orders of the day are pro- members desire to be present, it would be ceeded with, I desire to make an explana- well in these circumstances for the House tion to the House in regard to a statement to adjourn until next Tuesday week. By I made a. few evenings ago concerning that time, a certain amount of work Mr. Alexander, Mayor of Prernantle. I will, probably, have come down from the stated that I understood Mr. Alexander Assembly; and we may, then be able to had expressed himself as in sympathy Question, Papers, L23 OcToBER, 1901.3 Quetio,FederalPper. 23 CTOER,190.)Tariff. 1747 with the fettlers' demand f or an increased with the charge preferred against Night rate of pay. The reason why I made the Foreman Trenowith of inciting certain statement was that 1 had seen i the cleaners to refuse dutyv during the recent newspapers a report that a motion railway strike. 3, All papers connected brought before the Fremantle Chamber with a, charge against Traffic Officer of Commerce relative to the strike, had Kendall of abusing Driver Lyons during been amended or proposed to be amended the railway strike. by Mr. Diamond, who expressed the opinion that almost everybody was agreed PAPERS-COOLGARDIX WATER that the men deserved the increase of SCHEME, CORRESPONDENCE. wages ask-ed for. Mr. Diamond's amend- MnR. G4. TAYLOR (Mount Margaret) ment was seconded by Mr. Alexander, moved: That a copy of all the corre- who, I understood, indorsed tbe opinions spndence that passed between Mr. expressed by Mr. Diamond. I am Rayvner and Mr. Hod gson, the engineer assured, however, that Mr. Alexander did of the, Ooolgai-die Water Scheme, be laid not indorse those opinions, but simply, upon the table of the House. seconded the amendment proposed by Mr. THE, MINISTER FORL WORS (Hon. Diamond. Having assured myself, there- W. H. Kingeinill): So far as any corre- fore, that Mr. Alexander did not express spondence which had passed officially the opinions I attributed to him, I feel between Mr. Rayner and Mr. Rodgson that in justice to the gentleman it is my was conc:erned, he had no objection to duty to withdraw the remark I made. laying copies on the table. If, however, Sxvsun Mnwinns: Hear, hear. there had been any correspondence of a private nature, it was, of course, out of QUESTION-RAIL WAY ENGINE SPARKS, his power to produce it. He understood NEW FUNNEL. that Mr. Rayner had written a good deal MR. F. McDONALD asked the Com- to the Frees, and that his letters had been missioner of Railways: i, What is the answered, also through the Press, by cost of fitting soft-coal funnels to each Mr. Hodgson. at Fremantle Loco. Shops with MR. TAYLOR: The Minister was not annlann exhaust, and what advantage is expected to supply what he did not derived. 2, Whether it is a. fact that Possess. instructions have been given to faire one Tr MINISTER FOR WORKS: So of these funnels off an engine ordered to long as that was understood, he was Geraldton. perfectly satisfied to agree to the motion. THiR COMMISSIONER OF RAIL- Question put and passed. WAYS replied: i, About £35. The advantage derived is the reduction of the RETURN-PERTH PA.RK BOARD, risk of fire from sparks to at Minimum. 2, PARTICULARS. Yes. On motion by MR. H. DiALleR, ordered: That a return be laid on the table of the PAPERS-PRISON WARDER AT FEE- House, showing-i, The names of all MANTLE, DISMISSAL. members of the Perth Park Board. 2, On motion by Mn. F. MoDosani, The number of meetings held by the ordered: That all papers relating to the Board during the twelve months ending dismissal of William Tlaylur, warder in 30th September, 1901. 3, The number Fremantle prison, be laid on the table of of meetings attended by each member. the House. 4, The total amiount of public money which has been expended in the Perth PAPERS-RAiLWAY WORKERS, LATE Park. STRIKE INCIDENTS. On motion by Ma. H. DAGLISH, MOTION-FEDERAL TARIFF, EFFECT ordered: That there be laid on the table ON STATE INDUSTRIES. of the House-i, All papers relating to A PROTEST. the appointment of Railway Engine- Mua. A. F. MORGANS (Coolgardie) driver W. R. Trenowith to the position moved: of night foreman at Southern Cross That this Rouse views with consternation loco. sheds. 2, All papers connected the Federal Tariff which hus been protnul- 1748 Feder-al Tariff. [ASSEMBLY.]ASML. Electfec onnteSae the State. gaSted, in view of the serious consequences that be on this colony when the consummation must result to the trade and commerce of this took place; and it is object this after- State, as well as to the mnining industry, which my is one of the principal elements of prosperlity; noon to lay before the House some of the and this House respectfully enters its protest effects as they appear to me. I heard against the imposition of the proposed tariff during the debate last night on the in its present form. Financial Statement some references This motion is one referring to a very mnade to the regrets of hon. members on important question in regard to the the other (Ministerial) Bide of the House future of Western Austrafia. The pro- that they had entered into federation. inulgation of the new Federal Tariff has MR. HOPKINS: No regrets here. certainly caused some anxiety in this Mw MORGANS: I Said I had heard State, and the more it is looked into the it expressed by some members lat night, more it presents itself as a serious matter that certain members on the other side of for the future of Western Australia. I the House had felt regretattheconsumma- would like to say that some of my friends tion of federation, in view of this tariff. on the bench representing Labour inter- Ha. HopiNxs: That is quite amistake. ests have some objection to the wording Mfn. MORGANS:- I was going on to of the motion; not in principle, but with say that I do not think that was a fair regard to the construction of the sentence. allusion, and I do not think it is right to The motion as it appears on the Notice insinuate or infer that hon. members on Paper reads: "1That this House views the other Side are responsible for this with consternation the Federal Tariff," tariff, nor do I think it right for any and so on. My friend the member for member of this House to suppose that Kanowna, (Mr. Hastie) seems to think members of that side do not view with that" "consternation" is rather a Strong anxiety -also the introduction of this expression; ,and if I can, with the per- tariff. AS a, matter of fact, the promulga- mission of the House, alter the wording tion of this tariff has nothing to do with of the motion either now or at a later the principle of federation; and therefore stage, I Shall be glad to do so, and if I do not think it was right last night to allowed I would put it in this way, "1That allude to it as was done by some members this House views with much anxiety," in discussing the Financial Statement. instead of " consternation." It may be To myself, one of the most serious Said that the opposition to the Feacral aspects of the question is the effect Tariff is one based on opposition to of this Federal Tariff on the mining federation. So far as I am concerned, I industry of this State; and I think have not viewed it in that light at all. it can be shown that the effect will It will be remembered that in this House not only be most serious hut also far- when we had various discussions on the reaching, and that the result will he question of federation, although I told disastrous to the mining industry of this the mewmher for East Perth on several State unless there is some very solid occasions that there was no more staunch change or very important reduction made federalist in the House than myself, yet I in the tariff as it has been promulgated. could not convince him of the fact; and It is not so much the question of the the reason was that when this great effect of this tariff on the rich mines of question of federation came before this this State as it is the effect of the tariff House, I was most desirous that the on the low-grade mines. These are the whole people of this State should give mines that will feel the effect of the proper consideration to all the conditions tariff imposed; and when we regard the that were proposed, before they took fact that it is the moderate and low- their final leap. I was never in any sense grade mines of this State that will in the opposed to federation, and to the principle future produce most of the gold wealth of federation I wa-s always a, strong of the State, I think it is due to us to adherent. I say now that, so far as the consider what the effect will he, not principle goes, I am well pleased indeed entirely, on the mines which are operating that federation has been accomplished in at the present time, but on the mines the Australian States. Having made that which will be operated in the future. explanation, I may say that I did view We knew quite well that in Kalgoorlie you with some anxiety what the results would Iwill find in the short space of oneinda half Federal Tariff [23 OCTOBER, 1901.] E~ffect an the State. 1749 square miles a group of the richest gold the minds of hon. gentlemen present, and mines known to the world; and therefore I hope also upon the public outside this in so far as some of these mines are House. In the year 1900 the total value concerned, I do not desire to say that Iof machinery imported into the State was the imposition of this tariff will mean X613,000, in round umulers. There is ruin to those mines. Unfortunately, all unfortunately no means of classifying this the wines of Western Australia are not machinery; the Governmentreturns,as far like those of Kalgoorlie; and it is per- as I have beenableto ascertain, do notshow fectly certain that a very large number what the proportion of mining machinery of the mines which are now struggling is to the other classes of machinery for existence, if the tariff is accepted , imported; but from my knowledge of the will be wiped out of existence, and industrial condition of this State, I think a very large number of the leases it is quite fair to assume that by far the that are now being exploited by pros- largest proportion of machinery imported pectors and others under very serious in 1900 was for mining purposes. To difficulties will also be wiped out. In show what rapid strides this industry order to show the exact position of the made in this State in one year only, we mining industry of this State. I will quote see from the reports of the Collector of some figures taken from the official Customs that between the years 1899 and reports of the Government. The figures 1900 there is an increase of £116,000 in are for the year 1900, and I may say I the imports of machinery. This House cannot get any figures for this year, or at could not have, nor could the public of any rate I cannot get complete figures. the State have a stronger proof of the However, in order to draw comparisons great importance of the mining industry and to show the condition of the industry than that, nor of the Freat strides the under the Federal Tariff and the State Iindustry is making in the State at the Tariff, it would be better to take the year present time. Looking at the figures 1900, which will give an approximate idea which I have obtained, with some diffi- of the state of things at the present time. culty, during this last week, although I We see from the returns issued by the regret they are not complete. I may state Government that the total production of to the House, so far as I have been able wealth in this State and exported amounts to ascertain, the proportionate increase of to £7,194,000 in round numbers. The machinery introduced into the State in difference between this amount of pro- 1901, as compared with 1900, is far duction and the gold produced is greater than that between the years 1899 £26,007,610, and die value of other and 1900. It will be quite easy to minerals besides gold amtount to show at the end of the year that there £172,000, making a total in gold and has been even a greater increase than minerals of X6,179,800. These are the 25 per cent, for the year; -therefore figures obtained from the last report taking into account these figures and issued by the Mines Department in con- the enormous increase in the importation nection with the mining industry of the of machinery, we cannot doubt the fact country, and these figures show that of that the wining industry in the State the total production of wealth in this is making progress that no other industry State,' gold accounts for 84 per cent., is making, and that the commercial other minerals 2 per cent., and from all progress of the State depends on this great other sources of industry 14 per cent. of industry. In addition, although it is the total wealth of this country. There- quite impossible from the returns of the fore I think hon. members will see how Collector of Customs to give details, very important the gold-mining industry from my knowledge of mining I have is to the well-being of Western Australia. calculated that, in addition to the Having these figures before us I should above imports of machinery, the mining like to call the attention of the House to supplies in the form of renewals has also some other facts also gleaned from the increased to the sum of .£100,000. This official records of the State. The figures machinery is not detailed in the tariff, I have given show the importance of the bat I know from my experience, taking gold-mining industry, and the figures I the number of ounces of gold extracted, will now give must impress themselves on and it is a low estimate to say the 1750 Federal Tariff EA-SSERBLY.)ASML. Efectfec onnteSae the State, value of the renewals imported into the had been introduced under the Federal State to keep the minling machinery going Tariff, the duty paid on that machineryv in proper order must amount to the sum would have been £9145,000. named. If we add to the total of THEE COLON AL TREASURER: A sum of £9513,000 (the value of the imported £170,000. machinery) the X100,000 for renewals, that MR. MORGANS: I have my figures, will make a total of £,613,000. It is only and the hon. gentleman was good enough fair in trying to arrive at a correct to state that I had under-estimated the estimate of the real position of the ques- amount, and I sav the duties on £583,000 tion about to be discussed that we should worth of machinery at 25 per cent. make a deduction from the amount men- amounts to £2146,750. tioned of £450,000, which will more than THE COLONTrn TREASURER: It Was represent, I think, the value of the other only £323,342. machinery imported dining this period. Mn. MORGANS: What was? This will reduce the value of imported TanE COLONT.AL TREASUREn: mining machinery and renewals to I Machinery. £56 3,000. What is the financial position ME, MORGANS: In that case the of this part of the question ? It is that returns of the Collector of Customs are under the State tariff, duty to the in error. Here is the Statement and I will extent of 5 per cent. was paid on this read it. But according to the hon, class of mnachinery, and that involved the gentleman's figures I should have said wine owner in an expenditure in duty to £150,000. the amount of £229,150. THE COLONIAL TREASURER: YOU TE COLONIAL TRAiSURER: Five per ought to have said £2170,000. cent. on machinery and 10 per cent, on Mn. KORGANS: I thought the bion. pads. member said £2107,000. I beg to thank MEt. MORGANS: I am glad the hon. the hon. gentleman, and I am not at member has called my attention to that issue with him on the question. I did fact, as it shows I have very much under- not quite understand the position: I estimated my figures. thought the hon. member said £,107,000, MR. GAReDINER: The parts have 10 per and I am glad that I find my figures cent, on them now. are under the mark. Instead of.£105,000, MR. MORGANS: I am glad the bon. the Treasorer- thinks the figures should member has called my attention to the he £170,000. According to my figures fact of the figures I hare given being the increase wo uld have been £9116,000 in moderate and well within the mark: it one year of duty on machinery intro- will impress upon the House the state- duced into this State. This is an appal- ment I am making. I was about to say ling fadt for the consideration of the that when we look at the fact that the House, when we look at the importance gold-mining industry of the country is of mining, machinery to this country. In the source of 86 per cent, of our wealth, addition to this extraordinary increase, £29,000 is a very fair amount indeed for which is really appalling, we have a the Government to raise as duties on farther disabilit, introduced through the machinery, when the machinery is really medium of the Federal Tariff, which the premier cause of the production of the appears to have been overlooked in the wealth. We know quite well that no discussion on this important question. Government can be run without revenue, There is an increase of duties on the and mining machinery, like other machi- materials used in the mines, stores and nery, should pay some duty; and I think other things, and I have taken these at a, the duty paid by this great industry to general average increase of 15 per cen t., the Government in 1900 was a fair pro- as near as I can get from the tariff. portion of wh at should be paid. seeing This adds to the burden of mining the industry is the principal cause of the maehinery£0180,O0flayear, which together production of the wealth of the country. with the increase of £145,000 upon The mine owners of the country were machinery, makes a total increase, a farther satisfied with that arrangement. But burden on the mining industry of the what do we find under the Federal Tariff ? country under the Federal Tariff, of We find that if this quantity of machinery £325,000 per annum. I would ask the Federal Tarij. LM OCTOBER, 1901.3 FedralTar':Efect3 O'rona,190.3 on the State. 1751 House, and I appeal to members to say of gold by 4s. Id. These in themselves whether this is not an appalling fact ? are facts that should make this House Is that not enough of itself, without and this country pause to consider the farther considersation, to prove that the effect of the Federal Tariff on our operation of the Federal Tariff in this greatest, and I may almost say our only. country must result in a very serious industry. Apart from this industry, we curtailment of the mining industry of the have the timber industry, which pro- country. If that is not so I shall be duces about half a million pounds surprised, and shall be glad to hear any annually, I think. Next conies the argument brought to prove to joy mind wool, and then pearl -shelling; and that this is not a, very serious thing. after that there is very little in this MnEmsnn: HOW Would you propose to State in the way of natural production. raise revenue ? If we look at the general increase in the MR. MORGANS: I am not the Federal duties on machinery, it seems a very easy Treasurer: it is not for me to explain thing to say, " Well, we will put an how the revenue is to be raised. I am increased duty of 25 per cent. on mining quite prepared to admit that the revenue machinery "; but what does that increase must be raise(], and from what I have of 25 per cent. mean on the cost ? It seen of the Federal Tariff, I think I could means in this instance an increase of 400 have raised the necessary revenue for the per cent. in the duties paid on mining Commonwealth without tazing mnining machinery. I ask, can any member of machinery to the extent that has been this House point to a single instance in done. If the Federal Treasurer desires the history of industry in England or in any information on the point, or any anyv British colonyv, where such an increase light thrown into his dark mind, I shall has been thrown on an important industry be glad to assist him by throwing that at one fell swoop P I do not think that light if be will give me an opportunity. in all the annals of the history of industry What will be the effect of those increases in British colonies or in Great Britain on the supplies to the mines? A very itself-indeed, I will go farther and say serious one indeed. I see by the official I do not think in the annals of industrial returns of the Mines Department that life and enterprise in any par-t of the last year there was raised of gold ore world-has a, ease been known where an 1,200,000 tons in this State. Taking industry has been saddled without any that as a basis of calculation, we see the intimation, without any warning or reason effect, not of an increase of duties on being given, with duties increased at machinery, but the effect of an increase the rate of 400 per cent. I say that of duties on stores and supplies, which, the increase in these duties on mining in connection with mines, "go on for machinery and stores is monstrous, is ever," like Tennyson's brook. Taking unfair to the mining industry, and abso- the. figures for 1900, we have an output lutely unfair, moreover, to the best of gold ore amounting to 1,200,000 tons. interests of this State. W hat will be the On that there is an increase of XC325,000 effect of those increases in the duties ? in the cast, which results in an increase The effect can only be to prevent the of s. Id. in the cost of treating per ton introduction of farther capital into this of ore. This is a. very serious matter for country. It may not absolutely stop the the consideration of the Rouse, and it is introduction of capital; but it will a. much more serious matter for the con- certainly have the effect of retarding and sideration of the Federal Parliament, restraining the introduction of capital. when that body realises that hundreds of It 'nay be argued by some that this mines, not only in Western Australia State does not require the introduc- but in all parts of the world, are working tion of farther capital. To those who on a margin of profit smaller than the argue thus, I can only say that I increase in the cost of working caused by have nothing more to urge, and that the introduction of the Federal Tariff. there is no farther argument with them In addition to that, if we take the on the question. From my point of number of ounces of gold raised in 1900, view, however, T say, and I believe, 1,500,000, we see that the Federal Tariff that the future, indeed the whole life, increases the cost of getting each ounce of this State, the increase pf its lproduc- 1752 Federal Tariff: [ASSEMBLY.]ASML.lfecn Effect on theeSae SWe. tiveness, the raising of its commercial 1House. I wish to show that the workers prosperity, and the well-being of all its of this State are really more interested in industries, depend on the introduction of the matter of the Federal Tariff than farther capital. What has been the anyone else is. The figures I have given result of the introduction of capital into show really that the proportion of wages this State ? Has it not raised the State paid is 57 per cent. of the total produc- from a position of impecuniosity ten tion of gold in this State. Another years ago to a. position of affluence to-day? interesting fact in connection with the Has not that been tile result of the intro- subject is that the Government returns duction of capitalP [Ma. GhkRDNwn: show there are 21,000 men directly And labour.) If so, why should steps engaged in the mining industry of Wes- be taken, or why should efforts be wade, tern Australia: indirectly, of course, to prevent the introduction of farther there are several thousands more. If we capital for the purpose of developing the Iwere to take into account the indirect latent resources of our country? I say Iworkers, for instance, the wood cutters that one effect of the Federal Tariff will and those interested in freighting to be to retard-T will not say it will the mines, and so forth, it would he entirely stop, but at any rate it will seen that the wage-earners in this seriously retard-the introduction of State are really taking over 60 per cent. farther capital. Another very interest- Iof its total production of gold. There ing aspect of the subject I am now can be no doubt, this being so, if the discussing, is that the figures which I Federal Tariff is going to throw difficul- have given show the very important ties on the industry, not only will the position the wage-earner occupies in industry itself suffer, but also those who regard to our gold-mining industry, and are so nobly supporting it. Everyone how his interests will be affected by the connected with the industry will suffer, proposed Federal Tariff. I have taken iand those who will certainly suffer most some care in compiling my statistitrs, and are, as the member for Mt. Margaret (Mn. I think they are very, nearly, correct. The Taylor) very properly said, the wage- total value of gold produced in 1900 was, earners. Another aspect of the question as I said before, £6,007,610. Wages which I think we should take in view is and salaries amounted to £3,400,000; the effect of the Federal Tariff on the dividends to £1,200,000; renewals, Iother States. I say the effect on them stores, fuel, freight, etc., to £1,400,000. will be nothing like what it is on this From these figures it will be seen that the State. The total production of wealth in wage-earners of the State are interested the sister States does not depend, as to the extent of nearly 60 per cent. it practically does in this State, on gold- in its production of gold. I mention mining. The imposition of the Federal this fact in order to bring conviction to Tariff on the mining industry of the the minds of my friends, the gentlemen other States will affect them very little who so well and ably represent Labour in Iindeed in comparison with this State. It this House. I mention it in order to is easy for Victoria. to saddle taxation on carry to their minds the conviction that Western Australia:; I have no doubt this is a very important question for the the process is found a very pleasant one. working men of the State. I have shown ILI is at 0ll times pleasant for some that the working men have an interest in people to put taxes on the other man; the question, and that it is not only the I aind that is just what Victoria is doing capitalist who is concerned, but the wage- to Western Australia, what the Federal earner as well. If the capitalist is Government are doing to this State. The hindered by the Federal Tariff, it follows IFederal Government are taxing the only as a matter of necessity - industry of any great importance in this MR. TAYLOR: That the wage-earner State; and what for? For the purpose will suffer every time. not entirely of raising revenue, but for MR. MORGANS: The hon. member the purpose of enriching the manufac- says that the wage-earner will suffer turers of the other States. [SEVERAL every time, and that is perfectly true. MEMBERS3: Hear, hear.] The importance The circumstance constitutes one (if my of this great gold-wining industry is reasons for bringing the facts before the also shown by the fact that, so far Federal Tartff: [23 OcToazR, 1901.] FedealEectan) [2 on OCTDER the191.] State. 1753 as one can glean from the returns of unworthy of more than a passing thought. gold up to the end of September of this I may say that when the time comes, I year, this State is producing at the pre- intend to correct Mr. Barton's figures in sent time 40 per cent of the whole of the reference to the introduction of mining gold raised in Australasia, including New machinery into this State. The right Zealand. That fact shows, or should hon. gentleman made a little mistake of show, to the members of the Federal £150,000; though, as it happened, his Government, to the Premier (Mr. Barton) figures suited his argument admairably. and to our representative (Sir John I do not say for a moment that he Forrest) - intended to make the mistake; but he MR. HOPKINS: What, Sir John Forrest miade good use of the figures so far as wants educating!1 the members on his side of the House MR. MORGANS: Yes; on this ques- were concerned. tion he evidently does want educating. MR. Hopxs: That is nothing for at MR. HoPKiNs: That is right; hear, protectionist. hear. MR. MORGA NS: In any case I would MR. MORGANS: I regret to say that like to inquire, in regard to this great I am entirely in disaccord with him on mining industry which is the life-blood the position he has taken uI) in regard to of this State, how is it that the Federal the Federal Tariff. [MR. HOPKINS: Government intend to impose a tariff on Hear, hear.] I was a very strong sup- it that means crushing the very life-blond porter of Sir John Forrest in this House, out of this industry?_ It will be the and out of it, for years. duty of members of this House to express MR. DAGLISH: You are now. their views on this question. I am fully MR. MORGANS: I thoroughly believe aware that any motion we may carry in the man, as a man; but I certanly here to-night cannot have the effect of think he has gone astray on the question altering the tariff; yet it may have an of the Federal Tariff. So far as I am *influence in changing the tariff. I know concerned, T intend to offer all the opposi- that anything we may say or do in this tion I possibly can to the Government of *Himuse at the present time can have no which he is a member; because I consider 1effect on the Federal Tariff, otherwise that Government a discredit to the com- tham as an influence on the minds of bined States of Australasia. How is it those who are handling the question on that the great mining industry of this the other side. But it is a duty, in view State, which p~roduces 80 per cent, of our of the terrible position we are placed in wealth, and 40 per cent, of the total gold under this tariff, for members of this yield of Australasia, receives such scant House to express their opinions; aaid if courtesy at the hands of the Federal Iwe pass a motion to-night, and if the Government ? I have read through IUpper House pass a, sila~lr motion on the whole of the papers published in some other occasion, expressing disap- the Eastern States during this debate; proval of the Federal Tariff, that expres- and, so far as I can gather, only two men sion of opinion must have the effect of have mentioned Western Australia in the favourably influencing the minds of the course of the discussion on the Federal legislators on the other side, and of open- Tariff. Sir John Forrest was one. He ing their eyes to the great injury which mentioned Western Australia in a speech this tariff will do to this great mining supporting the Federal Tatriff, with which industry in Western Australia. That the Speech I do not agree. The only other exrsin of opinion on this question reference to the mining industry of will have the effect of placing mining Western Australia was made by Mr. Imachinery on the free list, is a result I do Reid. It is true that Mr. Barton gave not expect; but I do expect that it will the House, in the course of his reply to have. the effect of making a material Mr. Reid, some figures relating to the reduction in the tariff. There is another introduction of mining machinery into point with regard to the tariff, and that this State; but it is evident from the is the effect on the cost of living iti this tone in which the Federal 'Premier State. There has been much discussion approached the question and discussed ion this question, and in the Press of this it, that he thought Western Australia ,State I have read a large number'of 1764 Federal Tariff: [ASSEMBLY.] Effect on the Stole. letters on the question, especially in the paid by workers in the gold-maining Morning Herald and the West Australian; industry under this tariff. If we add to and I have read those letters with great this sum the extra duties which will be interest, because they give the views of collected by the Federal Government on men who are interested in all branches of our wining machinery, the amount will commerce. The net result of that cor- be £325,000. Therefore we find a total respondence is to show a consens.s of increase in the cost to capitalists and in opinion in one direction (I have not the cost to workers engaged in the gold- yet seen one instance of an opposing minng industry amounting to £698,000 view), to the effect that this tariff will year. That is materially increase the cost of living in a-practically statement which£2700,000 should a cause every this State. There is no doubt about that, Imember of this House to reflect ; and I because the Federal Government actually think that when the workers on the gold- propose, through their tariff, to put fields thoroughly realise the effect of this duties on the list that was free in this Federal Tariff on their cost of living, State before; on such articles as sugar, they also will reflect, and we shall have a coffee, cocoa, kerosene, and various other serious outcry from the workers on the commodities; and it is perfectly clear Igoldfields with regard to the imposition that the imposition of their heavy duties caused by this tariff. 1 know something on these articles must increase the cost will be Said to me with regard to the of living, while in addition there are State Tariff, and I intend to refer to that other articles that were not on the free before I sit down. At this point I can list of this State, but on which the duties only say that although the State Tariff have been largely augmented, as for has in the past imposed taxes on the instance on jams, preserved fruits, and working man, it has never imposed any- articles of that kind. So far as I. am thing like the amount of taxation whic able to judge from investigations made, the Federal Tariff now imposes on them. it appears to me that the mining industry That was shown in this House two years especially, or those engaged in it, wil ago, when we hail a discussion on the suffer very Severely; and that this tariff food duties, and when I showed what the will cause an increase of the food duties cost of the State duties was to the and an increase in the cost of living to workems. the extent of 5. a. week per man and MR. GADNEmR: From breakfast-table family. I am speaking especially of the duties we got £2117,000 last year. mining industry. MR. MORGANS : Yes; and you will Mu. GARDINER: How many in a get about £300,000 this year under the familyP Federal Tariff, because you will tax a lot MR. MORGANS: I cannot tell the of things that were not then taxed by the number there is in the families of all the State Tariff in Western Australia. But people on the goldfields. these figures relating to increase also MR. GARDINER: But what is the basis include the cost of clothing as well as of your calculation ?' food. When we discussed the food duties MR. MORG4ANS: I take as a basis a on a previous occasion in this House. I man and wife with three children, making proved by the Government returns from a family of five; although I have infor- which I then quoted, and which were mnation received within the last few days accepted by all members in the Rouse at the time, that the tofal food duties shilln e edprwe sral o imposed under the. State Farlient lowfothinraetahataeplc amounted to 6d. per head per week, and already in the cost of living on the gold- at that time there was a, duty of 30s. per fields, as a consequence of this tariff. head on imported cattle. The last Par- But this estimate shows that the men liarnent took the duty ofl cattle, and engaged directl in the gold-inn in- what was the result? Meat went up in dustry will be affected by an increase price! [Several interjections.] What I which will give a total increase per week want to show, later on, is that as Soon as amounting to £6250, and this increase the Federal Tariff is established, the in the course of a year will amiount to) manufacturers of mining machinery in £278,000, for the additional duties to be the other States will raise the price of Pederat Tai-iff: [23 OCTOBER, 1901.] FedralTarff:ffect P~onCTOER,190.] the State. 1755 their machinery' up to the limit of the industry, and that is its financial status. Federal Tariff. In order to show the grievous injury that TER MIt' ISTER FOR MINES: They have will be dlone to the mining industry of done it already. this State, on examination of their Ma. MORdANS: Yes; they are doing financial position we shall find that it is it already. The effect of our Stal e Tariff not what the public of this State have was that it involved the workers in an generally supposed, and probably what expenditure of sixpence per head per week, the majority of members in this House while under the Federal Tariff now have believed. It is generally supposed imposed the cost will be increased to con- that mining companies in this State are siderably more than one shilling per head prosperous, and that mining enterprise per week. Therefore the workers are is fair game for exploitation. But when bound to suffer under the imposition of we look at the figures taken from the this Federal Tariff. I will later touch on Government returns-I have been care- the State Tariff. Let us take now the ful to confine my attention to returns whole of the populatiou of this State, given by the Government, so as to insure in order to arrive at the average a reliable result-it will be seen that the increase in the cost of living. I wining industry is not making profits, think it is a fair estimate which no except under the most favourable con- member here will lbe inclined to ques- ditions, and that instead of imposing tion, that the increase in the cost of on it extra taxation, it should be living will be one shilling per head per fostered with all care and attention. week under this Federal Tariff; and if In the year 1900 the total area of gold we accept that as a basis, and taking our mining leases taken up and for which population at 200,000 people, the result rent was being paid to the Government will be an increase in the cost of living was 36,024 acres, leaving obt the mineral equal to £10,000 per week; and the leases. Of this number only a total area proportion will result in an increase of Of 2,000 acres are pa,'ying any return for £520,000 in the year. That is a rather the outlay made upon them. I would appalling fact. Here we have workers like to ask if it has occurred to the minds and others in this State complaining of of any hon. member in this Rouse that the high cost of living, and still under this is the case. That is a fact which to this Federal Tariff' it is intended to my mind is most serious, and one that increase the cost of living in this State to almost causes consternation as far as the the extent of more than half a million a mining industry is concerned. Here we year! If that statement is not such as to have the official figures to show that only cause all people in this State to pause and 5 per cent. of the total number of acres use every effort to prevent this increase, now being occupied for mining purposes then I do nut know anything that will is paying. arouse them. If the workers and others Tan MINISTER FOR MINES: Is that who are interested in this great question taken from our returns?~ are not prepared to look at the importance MR. MORGANS: Yes. These returns of the question through the imposition of are taken in this way, and I will refer to this tariff, then I say there is a want of them in order that inem berg may be quite interest in it and a. want of interest in the clear on the point. Ihave theveryexcellent affairsof this State that is wostregrettable. returns of the Department of Mines for I find that the increase works out about 1900, and on page 13 of the mining X2 11S, per head per annum in this returns members will find there a list of State; and I find, on reference to Sir G. the companies which paid dividends for Tnrner's figures, that he puts down the the year 1900, those which paid any total amount of duty at X3 17s. 6d. per return on the capital. They are 25 in head for Western Australia. I think my number, and the area of ground occupied estimate must be good, because when the by these companies which are paying, I other impositions are added to these, they have ascertained, is 2,000 acres, th~erefore will come more or less closely to the I think my figures axe quite correct. I estimate made by Sir G. Turner. There have not been able to ascertain the names is one other point that is of even greater of the companies which own the 36,000 interest in connection with the mining acres, but there are 25 companies, accord- 1756 Federal Tariff: [ASSEMBLY.) Effect on th State. iug to the Government returns, owning Mu. MORGANS: I am not a pessi- 2,000 of the 86,000 acres, and these 25 mist: I am giving facts, and the effect companies are the only ones which have upon the mining industry. Take the paid any interest on their capital during Fremnantle Smelting Works: that coin- the year under review-the year 1900. pany uses 221, tons of coke per day. 1 will ask, is not this a fact with regard There is a duty of 4Is. per ton imposed to the mining industry that should cause on coke, which will make a difference of members in the House and people outside £214,000 a year alone in one article to the to reflectP Here you have the total Fremantle Smelting Works. Here is profits of this great industry, which pro- an industry established under the pro- duces 88 per cent, of the total wealth of tection of the Government-I believe the the country, furnished by 25 mines, and Government gave £5,000 towards the the balance of the mines, 95 per cent., are establishment of the industry. not all paying their expenses. This is an Tus COLONIAL Tnrxsuazm: This appalling fact; this is something that Government? should make members pause before they MR. MORGANS: The late Govern- come to the conclusion that the mining ment; at any rate the country gave industry can stand any amount of £5,000 towards the establishment of the burdens. Farther, I say although I industry, and we know perfectly well that have not been able to get returns of up to the present the company have the profits and dividends paid this year been making a loss. We know that the by mining companies, I am perfectly sure company have bad to reconstruct on one a smaller number of companies paid occasion, and I understand that some dividends this year than last. I do not negotiations are pending at the present think that the amount will be less, but time for the purpose ofi farther recon- the number of acres producing dividends struction. Notwithstanding all that has this year will he smaller than the number been done for this industry, which has in 1900. However, we are in this been established under the protection of position: only 5 per cent. of the miuing the Government, here is an impost of 20 companies in this State are paying, and per cent, placed on coke which will 95 per cent, are not paying. In view of make a difference of X14,000 a year that fact is it right and proper that the on one article to this industry, and Federal Government should try and stifle which will make a difference also to every this industry with a tax of 25 per cent. other industry using coke. This is not on machinery? Is it right that the right. Hot can this country stand Federal Government should try and in. up against this imposition? What crease the cost of production of gold by hope is there of farther development 25 per cent. ? If what I have stated is of the mining industry of the coun- the condition of the mining industry in try if the Federal Tariff is passed by Western Australia, what hope is there Parliament? What hope is there for the for farther development if the paternal mining industry of the State to prosper Federal Government intend to impose as it has done in the past?: There is one duties to the amount of Y400,000. What point in connection with machinery. I is to become of the 25 mines, and the see my friend, Mr. Gardiner, getting large number which are not paying ready to reply to me. I know what he expenses? What is to become of the is going to tell me. mines struggling for existence? I say MR. GAIWTNR: To help you. that the returns which I have given to MR. MORGANS: Ilam sure the hon. the House should cause anxiety. They member will help me as far as he can. I cause great anxiety to my mind, and I regret the member for East Perth (Hon. am perfectly certain they will cause W. H. James) is not in his place, because anxiety to every member of the House I know he is a pronounced protectionist who reflects on the position of the mining from head to foot, from shoulder to industry, and when he sees that 95 per shoulder, right through bone, blood, flesh cent. of the mines are not paying their and muscle; but I know what his argu- way. ment will be. He will say " Butyon can THE COLONLAL TREAsuRER: You have get all this mining machinery from Vic- become a6pessimist. toria." I say you cannot. The manu- Federal Tariff: [-23 Oc'ronn, 1901.] Effect on the State. 1757 facturers of Victoria are not in a position Why should the sweat of our brows in to supply all the mining machinery Western Australia be sucked by the required to-day by the State of Western manufacturers in Victoria for the purpose Australia. It is idle to suppose they can of filling up their purses and banking do so. But supposing, for the sake of acmounts ? I have no objec-tion if the argument, that the manufacturers of duties are increased in this State, for the Victoria can supply the machinery, as benefit oif the State; I have no objection they are human they will simply follow to a moderate increase; but the whole of the lines of the Federal Tariff and put up the increases proposed under the Federal the price as closely as they c-an to the Tariff will not mean one iota of benefit Federal Tariff. What advantage will it to this State, but will simply go to the be to the mining industry whether they other States for the purpose of replenish- pay Fraser and Ohalmers, of London, a 25 ing the banking accounts of many bank- per cent, increase, or the Otis Company, of rupt manufacturers of the other States. Melbourne, a 25 per cent. increase? It MR. HioHAjm: You are rather late in will go out of the pockets of the mining saying that. You ought to have said industry all the same, and we are that that when the federal debate was on. much short. It is idle to think these manu- MR. MORGANS: I did say when the facturers are going to open their bowels discussion was on that we should observe of niercy towards the miningr industry caution in going into federation. But I and supply mnachinery for less than we can do not want to be drawn into discussing get it elsewhere. What is the effect the federal question now. I am a of the creation of a ring ? It is to raise federalist, and I am glaod that Australia prices. And what is the Federal Tariff has federated; but what I am standing but the creation of a ring for the protec- up against now is that the Federal Gov- tion of manufacturers in the other States ? ern ment, elected by the people, are trying That is what it is. I have facts before to impose on this State an unfair tariff. me at the present time showing that That is what I say, and I will not be quotations have been made by manu- drawn into any other position by the hon. facturers in Victoria formmiig machinery member. I was about to say, with regard here, and since the promulgation of the to raising the prices, that we know quite Federal Tariff those quotations have been well that men are merely human beings, withdrawn on account of the tariff. What and they are keen enough to do all they will happen ? You will stop the impor- possibly can to get what they possibly tation of machinery from *England and can. I refer to the manufacturers of the United States, and you will get it Victoria. Mr. Reid gave a very good from the other States, but you will not example of that the other day when get as good a machine, and you will have discussing the tariff in the Federal to pay 26 per cent. more for a vastly in- House, I think on the motion of want ferior article. I have the right to speak of confidence. He cited an instance with authority on the question of mining of how this works out, how this material, because I have spent large sums ring established under the guidance of of money on machinery, and I know its the Federal Government will act. He worth. I say for the same price, pound instanced the manufacture of starch. for pound, no manufacturer in Victoria There is a firm in Victoria by the name can compete with the manufacturers in of Harper & Company, in which I hope England and the United States for mining my friend, the member for Beverley, is machinery, either in batteries, cyanide interested, because the business is a very plants, engines and boilers, or anyv class profitable one. [Mu. HA RPER: I am of machinery you can mention. I do not not.] Under the Federal Tariff the firm deny that the manufacturers in the other in question gains to the tune of X~20,000 States can make a fairly good battery or a year, owing to the increase of duties. make a fairly good engine and boiler, one I regret my friend, the member for that will answer the purpose; but they Beverley, is not connected with that firmn. cannot for a moment, for the same price, I am sorry for him. However, as to the make an engine, a boiler, or a battery ci uestion of starch, under the Victorian that will compare with a similar article duties starch was made by this well- made in England or the United States. known firm and sold at 439. per cwt. in 1758 Federal Tariff: [ASSEMBLJY.] Ef~fect on the State.

Melbourne, while at the same time this Eastern States. There are many other same starch was being sent to Sydney by points calling for attention in regard to this same firm and sold there for 269. a the tariff, Ther-e is the revenue pro- cwt. What happened since the Federal ducing aspect. The tariff which the Tariff was promulgatedP The firm paternal Federal Government desire to raised their price in Sydney to 42s.ai cwt. impose reminds me very mauch of the too. This is just an instance of the case of a man saving he is hungry and tendency of the manufacturer to get all will not eat. The Federal Government he can out of the consumer; and the tell us that this is not a protective tariff, same thing will obtain in Western Ausa- but a, revenue tariff. If that be so, are tralia directly a 25 per cent, duty is they not absolutely cutting all the ground imposed on mining machinery. Up will Ifrom under their feet, and are they not go the price iu Victoria. and the other *enacting a tariff that will not produce States by 24 or 25 per cent. Nothing revenue ? will prevent it. Therefore, it is sipl MR. NANSOiq: That tariff is a com-: idle for lhon, members to argue thatw bination of the two. shall be able to draw a supply of mining MR. MORGANS: My friend the machinery from the other' States as member for Murchison tells me that the cheaply as we get it now. My eyes are Federal Tariff is a. combination of a pro- not dlosed to facts. I am quite aware tective tariff and a revenue tariff. The that when the manufacturers of Victoria trouble is, however, that I do not see have so increased in number and size where the combination conies in. All I that they can manufacture more machi- see is this-and it is a very strange comn- nery than is required in Australia, prices bination -the artificial industries axe will come down. Directly the element of protected under this tariff, and nothing competition comes in, we shall find prices else is protected. That is where the com- reduced. But what are the hopes of bination comes in. I ask hon. members, competition? I maintain the majority is it a proper principle to protect the of hon. members now in this House will artificial industries of other States at the be in their graves long before that comes expense of the natural resources of this about. There is not the slightest chance State? I say it is not. The whole pros- of it. I will show why. This tariff, if perity and future of this State depend on enacted as proposed by the Federal Gov- the development of its natural resources. eminent, will not have that permanency [Several MEZMBERiS: Hear, hear.] Our of character which alone will induce prosperity depends, not on the develop- capitalists to put up factories in Aus- ment of the artificial resources of Vic- tralia on the strength of it. There toria, but on the development of our own is an element of uncertainty as to natural resources. That being so, why the time this tariff will last, and should we be called on to raise gold out of therefore nobody, either from within or the ground in Western Australia to bolster from without, will lay out capital in this up the artificial industries of the other State in putting up factories. There is States? Why should this be done? I say, only one condition under which factories it should not be done. Let these industries will extend in dimensions and number, stand on their own bottom!1 They have and that is if the Federal or any other quite enough protection under ordinary Government give a guarantee that the circumstances. The freighting of finished duties will not be altered for 25 or 30 machinery from Englaud is quite suffi- years. Under such a guarantee as that, cient protection: the cost of carriage is manufactures would lie established ; but sufficient protection. Why should we b without that guarantee there cannot be asked to give up a portion of our wealth large increases in the shape of inanufac- for the purpose of establishing and sus- turns in this or any other State. If the taining artificial and exotic industries in mining industry of the State be shut out the Eastern States ? It is absolutely from the markets of the world, the result unfair; it is against all principles of will be that we shall be obliged to pay to political economy. Whatever may be the tune of three quarters of a million said with regard to production in the annually to support the Victorian manu- other States, I maintain that if they cannot factur-ers and other manufacturers in the produce without interfering with the Federal Tarif:. [23 OCTOBER, 1901.] FedralTanf:fect 23onCTOER,190.] the State. 1759 development of the natural resources of Victoria:z you need not import any', since the soil, they had better not produce at you can get it all from Victoria." Such all. Let thiemstaniddown! lam not pre- is the burden of Mr. Barton's cry. That pared, however, to admit that this inter- gentleman seems to forget that if we get ference is necessary. Taking the examples all our machinery from Victoria, we shall of Victoria and New South Wales, we find have to pay the Victorian manufacturer that in the latter State, where there 25 per cent, more for his goods, while the has been no protection, industries have Federal Government will get nothing out developed more rapidly than in the former, of the duties. That is the position. Is where there has been heavy protection. it not an absurd assuniption for a gentle- MR. GEORGE: Did they not start with man in the position of Mr. Barton ? He protection ? sets up a high tariff for the purpose of MR. MORGANS: Who? making us buy articles manufactured in MR. GEORGE: New South Wales. Australia; and what is the result, if we MR. MORGANS: That is not the buyP He absolutely gives away all the question. I am dealing with the facts as tariff, and has nothing left him to pro- they are at the present time. There was due revenue. I say the position is protection in New South Wales for a very foolish. The hand of the Victorian short time, I believe; but protection was manufacturer is strongly in evidence in found to he detrimental to the interests this tariff. Is it not strange that every- of the State, and a system of free-trade thing connected with the industries of was inaugurated. Victoria-the woollen industry, the iron MR. GnoaGn: That is right. industry, manufacturing industries such Ma. MORtGANS: Under free-trade as the hat and the boot-should under New South Wales has prospered, and this Federal Tariff show the highest has established great industries. In increases of dutiesP It is on articles New South Wales a success has been produced in Victoria that all the highest made of the principle of free-trade; increases have been made. Does it not whereas in highly protected Victoria point to the fact that the object of the there is more sweating, there is more low tariff is not so much to secure revenue in and bad pay, there are more girls intro- order to carry out the duties of the duced into factories, and there is more Federal Government, as to protect those degradation throughout the whole of the exotic, artificial industries which live on industrial system, than in New South the blood of other industries drawing Wales. [MEMBER: More, bankruptcy.] their sustenance nut of the soil? I More bankruptcy also. How is it venture to believe the principles of free- the industries of New South Wales trade will receive a strong impetus in flourish without protection, while those this State from the present time. I think of Victoria are obliged to call on the on the next occasion when any person mining industry of Western Australia to proposes himself here as a, representative support them to the tune of 25 per cent. in the Federal Parliament, he wpill have to duties? The Federal Tariff, so far as come forward as a. freetrader; otherwise we are concerned, is an iniquitous one; there will be no chance of his getting and unless the Federal Government are into the Federal House at all. The last prepared to do something to grant relief protectionist from this State has already to our mining industry, which is prac- gone into the House of Representatives; tically the principal producing industry and I venture to say that when next Sir of this State, the result will be a very John Forrest returns to this State, he serious one for us. When one comes to will have to return as a freetrader, or else look at it, the position is really comic. I he will never go back again. [Several refer to the position taken by the Federal Mnxnsns: Hear, bear.] Thereisanother Government. Here they axe saying. view of the question which is not very " We are going to put a duty of 26 per cheering; and that is, what will be the cent, on raining machinery, because we effect on our mining industry as regards want revenue"; but, notwithstanding, the respective positions of the worker when we complain about the duty, the and capitalist? I fear very much that Federal Government tell us, "Oh, well, the tariff will cause strained relations you can get all your machinery from between the employed and the employer. 1760 Federal Tariff: [ASSEMBLY.] Effect on. the state.

If the worker be asked to pay more for were maide of good quality steel, and of his living, it is only natural he should good design. Out of that amount of demand more wages. [Ma& GEORGE:t £3,000.1I take it probabl y £1,100 will be Hear, bear.] That is quite natural. But spent in wages. I amn not quite clear as the reply of the capitalist, under the to this : it may he mtore or less; but it Federal Tariff, will be," "It is true that will probably be about £1,100. I am you are paying more for your living; but just giving this instance to show the I have to pay more per ton for getting advantage there is in encouraging the this ore worked, and therefore I anm in as production of the riches of the soil as bad a position as you are." What will against the encouragement of artificial be the result then ? The worker will ind ustries. The constr-uction of this say, "I am not satisfied: I want more battery would give about £1,100 in wages." And we know what springs wages; the rest of the money would be from that position. I can assure hon. spent in material. Now, what will that members that I have frequently, since I battery do after it is made? It will cost have been in this State, heard there was at least X1,000 in cartage and erection; to be a strike on the goldfields. Strikes probably £1,500. in some cases far more have been predicted times out of number; than the original value is expended in cart- but I have never seen any reason for age and erection; and most of that money alarm as yet. I have never yet looked is distributed in wages. That battery, for a strike, because there has been which cost £3,000 to construct, will work too much prosperity in many of the for at least 15 years, keeping 30 men goldfield districts to justify anything going and distributing about £80,000 in in the way of a strike. I do think, the form of wages principally. That however. that if the Federal Tariff be shows what advantage there is in foster- imposed, and if in consequence a large ing industries of the soil rather than number of mines be closed down and a artificial industries. It shows that in the large number of men thrown out of expenditure of only £8,000, which expendi- employment, and from this there result a ture may he said to be in connection with of labour in the State, very an artificial industry, we obtain some- ikelySletlhoin requests will be made for a reduc- thing which will disburse in wages alone tion in wages. When that day comes- a sum of almost £980,000 in the course of a sorry day for Western Australia, and 1 15 years. I do not think I could give a for one will regret it as much as any man better example to show the House that in the State-the result will probably be the policy of the Federal Government a strike which will bring- more disaster on should not be one of protection, but; the community than even the general rather one of encouragingthegreat natural operation of the Federal Tariff. There industries of the States of Australia.. The are many other points which I might d utv of the Federal Government should raise in this connection; but I will not be to make all they can out of the natural say much more. I only wish to make a resources, not to try and suplport artificial farther allusion to the policy of protee' ing industries. Here in Western Australia Victorian industries, or any other artificial we have untold wealth in the shape of industries of that kind. Let us take, for gold; and I say, let us develop it. Why example, a 10-stamp battery, and engine should the Federal Government place and boiler for working it. P'robably the on our shoulders an incubus which member for the Swan knows all about will make it impossible for us to bring this, and I shall make some statements to light our hidden treasure in the now-[Laughter.] Iform of gold and other *ninerals? I MR. GEORGE: Does the hon. member say it is a wrong policy; and if you refer to me? Ilam not mnem ber for the Iwere to erect in Victoria or in Western Swan. Australia to-day manufactories enuuqh to MR. MORGANS: I will say the mem- keep the whole of the mining machintery ber for the Murray; and then we shall in this State going, the value of that be on a safe footing. I suppose the con- would not amount to tbe value of the pro- struction of a l0-stamp battery, with iduction of gold in this State for one year. engine, boiler, and other appurtenances for So I say it is absurd to tax this great working it, would cost about £3,000 if it industry, which is the life-blood of this Federal Tarjft [23 OCTOBER, 1901.] Effect on the State. 1761

State. The whole success and future the hon. member (Mr. Morgans), I take prosperity of this State depend on the it that at least half of that machinery development of this great industry; and was manufactured within the Common- it will be a sorry day for this State when wealth. Consequently, without our indi- the Federal Government or any other vidual thoughts influencing the conditions, r Government unwisely interfere With the we come to the conclusion that the duty development of the natural resources on to be collected from mining machinery which this State entirely depends. imported into this State, instead of being (General applause.) £127,703, would probably amount to MR. J. GARDINER (Albany) : It will £62,600. The duty actually collected be admitted on all sides that, having last year under the State Tariff was handed over the control and power of £30,892. I am at one with the hon. taxing ourselves through the customs to member when he says that the mining the Commonwealth Parliament, this 1machinery manufactured in the Corn. motion can be looked upon only in the monwealth wvill increase in price closely light that it will show to the Federal up to the amount of the additional duty. Government the feelings of Western I know that theoretically, as far as pro- Australia with regard to the Federal tection is concerned-and I do not want Tariff. As the mover has said, no to enter into that controversy on this practical outcome can result from the occasion-competition will or should keep motion being passed by this House, or down the price; but the mover has from any vote of this House; but f romn pointed out that the Australian States the other side and even in this State we are not in a position, and are not likely hear strong complaints in regard to the to be for some years in a position, to operation of the Federal Tariff,' and I think Iproduce all the mining machinery which as result of that we shall havena tariff very is State will require and' which much modified before it eventually passes. frequently we want as quickly as possible I feel sure that is the object of the when it is required. I say that the mover in bringing this motion forward , possibility is that those companies which that not only this House, but the country are manufacturing mining machinery in through this House, should have an Australia will take the fullest advantage opportunity of expressing an opinion on of the tariff, and that the price of the taxiff. I was pleased to hear from machinery will increase aoccordingly. In the mover words of wisdom with regard effect we shall, as he says, be paying to federation. I resent very much the to the Commonwealth manufacturers a fact that federalists are accused of being lai-ger amount for mining machinery than responsible for this tariff. I say that so under present conditions. It must not far as the federalists of this State are be lost sight of that this tariff has not concerned, we sent to both the Senate yet passed the Federal Parliament; and and the House of Representatives free- that is why I am supporting the motion, traders with one exception, that exception in order that if we can we may show to being a gentleman whom a large number the other side that a cruel wrong will be of those now chastising us for our part in done to this State by the imposition of federation are most heartily supporting, these heavy duties on mining machinery. a gentleman who was then their "1guide, If they persist in keeping on these duties, philosopher, and friend " in this S tate, the mine-owner will have to say to the and they knew no other god in the poli- wage-earner, "We find it necessary to tical world. Therefore, why should we reduce your wages." That will be the who voted for federation be accused now position practically; and it is always an of being responsible for this Federal awkwa position for a employer to be Tariff? When the mover referred to in, when he feels obliged to reduce wages, mining machinery, I thought probably because the workers will resent the re- he was putting absolutely the worst side Iduction. Seeing that these increases will of the case; for, taking the tariff as a cause a rise in the price of mining whole, I find that the duty on the parti- machinery, and will increase the cost of cular imports shown in the last year's living in this State, I say we must make as returns would amount on this scale to far as possible the producing power of the X] 27,703k; and even on the showing of wages earned in this State greater than 1762 Federal Tariff [ASSEMBLY.][A.ML. BffectfetO on theh Vale.~~O at present, by removing the food duties I say we must take off the food duties, under our State Tariff. It is, no good and I will gladly support anyone who complaining of the "mate" in the eye of proposes to take that course.. The only the Federal Parliament, and still allow- thing I said, when we were passing the ing the "beam " to remain in our own reimposition of the State Tariff, was that eye. If we are going to protest against it should be passed in consequence of the high duties that affect the working of pledges made during the federation camt- the mines in this State, we must also paign; hutt now that we see the tariff, I protest strongly about the continuance of say we can at least take off those duties the high duties which affect the cost of wh~ich some of the producers in this living in this community. What issauce country nowv say are no protection to for the employer in that respect should them at all. We can well take the duty be sauce for the employee, when it affects off cheese, butter, flour, eggs. bacon, and his pocket. We are told, by the only hams; for I believe that, with the possible protectionist representative we sent t o exception of flour, the importations of the Federal Parliament, that we have had all these other foodstuff a have increased in this colony a free breakfast table; and during the last year, and consequently, we that is possibly one of the funniest are me rely using them as a mean s of easily things he has ever said. How can it he collecting a revenue. If we were to tax said we have a free breakfast table when the people in a more direct way, they we have a duty of 2d. a pound on cheese, wo ild take a greater interest in the direct 2d. on butter, 2d. on bacon, 2d. a dozen expenditure of the Government; and on eggs, 2d. a pound on hams, and 3'0s. when any man approached the Treasurer a ton onl flour? We find that the total and tried to obtain money from him for of those duties on breakfast table articles an expenditure on this or that object, collected in this State last year amtounted the Treasurer would be brought face to to £129,000; yet we are told we have a face with the fact that if he were to grant free breakfast table! I contend that in the money for those works which are loot the event of our having to face this works Of necessity, then the people would Federal Tariff, and granting that mine- have to he taxed directly for those works. owners will reduce wages, and that I do not want to see any addition to the this Federal Tariff will bring into heai-v dutties now collected, nor do I want the State Treasury £150,000, it will the Treasurer to receive an additional be 'wise that we should follow this amount far greater than he or we antici- to its root, and say that as the mnine- pated, in order that at the end of the owners are going to reduce wages to the year he may say, " I am a trute prophet, extent of £150,000 in the year, con- for I prophesied that I should have a, sequently the Treasury will be richer to surplus of £3,000 at the end of this the extent of £150,000 of duty collected, financial year, and now I have got therefore we must reduce the food duties £250,000." That is a kind of thing to the extent (if £150,000, so that the everyone should try to stop. Therefore workers shall not be in a worse position I have mnuch pleasure in supporting this if the Federal Tariff is carried into force. motion, merely to show that this State is Practically that is the position. Y do practically, whether we like it or not, a not want to see the Federal Tariff State of free-traders ; anld consequently, imposed, hut I say that all through the having sent 10 out Of 11 free-tra-de repre- federal campaign I was against the two sentatives, to the Federal Parliament, we duties having to be borne at the same have a right to say to those who are time. I pointed out that the sliding engaged in the framing of the tariff, that scale would not live for twelve months, it will inflict an inexcusable wrong on the as soon as the people found that the 'y greatest industry we have in this State, would have to pay for the sliding scale inl if the Federal Tariff be carried in its addition to paying for the Federal Tariff. present form. We federalists could see that revenue would have to be raised by the Com- monwealth; and we said that consequently As 6-30, the SPEAKER left the Chair. these duties under the sliding scale of this State must come off. If that is so, At 7-30, Chair resumed. Federal Tariff: [23 OCTOBER, 1901.] Efect on fte State. 1763

MR. J. L~. 1ANSON (Murchison): I holes in it, and could not find faults in it, should not have been found speaking in and some faults of a very serious descrip- this debate at an early stage, but for the tion. It is impossible to frame a tariff fact that it is my intention, before I sit for the whole of Australia which will down, to move an amendment to the equally please every State in Australia, motion; and it may be convenient for or equally please all the people or the members of the House, in arriving at a divergent interests of the Common- decision on the question, if they have wealth. We might as well endeavour to before them not only the motion, but the frame a tariff without blemish or spot, as amendment I propose to submit. We are to find the sun without spots; we might indebted to the member for Coolgardie as well endeavour to search for the for a most interesting speech, and after philosopher's stone or the elixir of life, listening to it, all of us must regret that as to find a tariff to answer the demands we do not oftener hear that hon. member of every interest and every industry of in this House. We must also listen to every State in an absolutely equal degree. anything that the hon. member says in A tariff to apply to the Commonwealth relation to the mining industry, not only as a whole must necessarily be in the with the greatest amount of attention, nature of a compromise. It has to find. but also with the greatest amount of not only a large revenue for the needs of respect. because we must recognise that the States of the Commonwealth, but it probably there is no man in the Rouse has to do something to protect the indus- who has a closer knowledge of the in- tries of the Commonwealth. The member dustry and has its welfare more sincerely for Coolgardie told us in the course of at heart, and who would be more loth his speech that the promulgation of this to consent to anything that would injure tariff had no reference whatever to the it or interfere with its progress, than the cause of federation ; but if we go back to hon. member. [ have no doubt also that the time when the battle of federation was this motion and the interesting speech being fought, if we go back to the time which the hon. member delivered on it prior to the taking of the referendum, we will prove to be the precursor of an know perfectly well that no advocate of equally interesting debate. Though the federation would have dared to get up debate may be interesting, I am utterly then and tell the people of Australia that unable to see how a motion of the kind we were going into a. Federal Constitu- that the House is asked to commit itself tion that would give us a free-trade tariff to can lead to any valuable or practical for Australia. And the reason why no result. Let us consider for a moment Australian orator of any standing at That what this motion asks the House to time tried to take up that attitude, is commit itself to. Whatever the in- sufficiently evident. We know, if the tention of the mover may be, there federation orators of New South Wales can be no question that outside Western had enlarged on the subject of protec- Australia, in the Eastern States, in tion at that period, if they had told the Parliament of the Commonwealth, us that the tariff of the Commonwealth this motion, if carried by this House, would be a free-trade tariff, it would will be regarded as a direct vote of have absolutely prevented Victoria from no-confidence by the Legislative As- -That great State of Victoria sembly of Western Australia in the Consentedjoining. to enter into the federation Barton Ministry. I can hardly see we only with the confident belief that federa- are justified in carrying a motion of so tion meant a continuance of the protective sweeping a character, simply because policy which had done so much for that this tariff, which is intended not for State-small in aeaes but great in riches Western Australia alone, with its small -- that it would mean continuance of population of 190,000 people, but which that policy which has done so much, not is intended for the Commonwealth as a only for Victoria, but even for the mnother- whole, with a population considerably State of New South Wales; of a nature over four millions. I cannot see how we which has done so much for the State of can expect a tariff which is intended to Queensland, and for the State of South apply to the whole of Australia could be Australia; and which, I venture to say, of such a nature that we could not pick has done very much for the State of 1764 Federal TIariff: [ASSEMBLY.] Effect on the State.

Western Australia as well.-[MPMBEu: *have to look at the reputation he bears Where ?]-I have already indicated that in the other States, we have to look at this tariff will no doubt have to undergo the reputation be bears in the mother somne farther material alterations ; but the country; and whatever stand may be consideration I would put to this House taken in this House in regard to the is this: is it desirable that when we have motion, I for one, even if in doing so I to deal with a Federal Tariff we should Iam alone, shall refuse to subscribe to look at it in an unfederal spirit? Are what in the Eastern States and in the we to look at the question merely as the Commonwealth Parliament will be inter- State of Western Australia, or (dealing preted as a direct vote of no-confidence with federal matters) as Australians as in Sir John Forrest. I venture to say, a whole? Nothing astonished mec more at this day there is no luau to whom, if than the fact that gentlemen who before he came back amongst us, the hearts and federation had been consummated, used the faith of the people would go out to tell us so much about "one flag and more than to Sir John Forrest. (Several one destiny," as soon as they get a tariff interjections.] In moving my amed which does not altogether suit their book, as soon as they get a tariff that is too question of protection or free-trade. For much protective and not sufficiently f ree- that reason my amendment adopts a form trade, all at once they forget everything Iwhich is, comparatively speaking, colour- apparently that they said about "one less. [Interjections and laughter.] It flag and one destiny "-[MR. HOPKINS: reads thus::- Not a bit of it]-and ask us to look at [That this H~ouse] confidentin the desire and this great question in a narrow and pro- Ithe determination of the Federal Parliament vincial light, and not to look at it as to conserve and advance the best interests of Australians but as members of a single the Commonwealth, loaves to it the consider- State of Australia. That is, I contend, a ation of the Australian tariff. narrow ground to take; it is a ground That, instead of conveying a vote of which, personally, I do not regard as an no-confidence in the Barton Ministry, like acceptable one; but it is a ground that the motion of my fiend the member for finds acceptance with a large number of Coolgardie, amounts to a vote of con- members in this House, a large number fidence in the Federal Parliament. Will of people of Western Australia, who at this House Say it is not ready to pass a one time were ardent federalists; and vote of confidence in the Federal Parlia- I will endeavour to follow them, and look inent? Is it prepared to say that, having at the matter through their spectacles. agreed to enter into federation, it has no But I ask hon. members to consider confidence in the Parliament of its own whether the motion, if passed, will assist creation? Surely if the Rouse refuse to in amy way to attain the object they pass an amendment of this description, it have in view. Let us take into consider- proves itself, as representing the people ation one fact of which mention has not of this State, to be opposed to the Par- been made. We have representing our liament of the Commonwealth, to be interests at the present time in the lacking in confidence in that Par-iamnt, Federal Ministry, the greatest West and lackinig in confidence in the people Australian of us all. [SEVERAL MEns- of Australia as a whole. A great deal BEs: Hear, hear.] We have in the has been made by the member for Cool- Federal Ministry Sir John Forrest, who, gardie of the fact that the new Federal with his own personality, with his own Tariff means a lar-ge increase in the cost right hand, is. I venture to say, probably of living. Why, I ask, did the people of able to do more for Western Australia the goldfields not recognise that fact before than all the other members we bare sent they votedF to represent this State. [Several inter- [Several interjections.] jections.3 Perhaps, as the member for blhmDER: They thought they were to Mt. Margaret (Mr. Taylor) says, Sir get a fiv.e-trade tariff. John Forrest is not so great a man as MR. HoPKiNs: They voted before the Some of us in this House imagine hiw to tariff was promulgated. be; but we have to look at the world- Ma. NANSON: An hon. member says wide reputation of Sir John Forrest, we that the people thought they were going Federal Tariff: [23 OCTOBER, 1901.] Effect on the State. 1765 to have a free-trade tariff. That is pre- Igoldfields were going solid for federation, cisely the admission I wanted to get; mud we would certainly have secured an for a. very good reason. When thermotion adverse vote in Perth. of no-confidence in connection with the SEVERAL MEMBERS: No. Federal Tariff was being debated in the MR. GEORGE: There was misrepre- Federal Parliament the other day, Mr. sentation. Barton, in referring to this cry that the MR. IANSON: What we in Perth tariff increased the cost of living, drew were faced with was this, that if the attention to the fact that it is absolutely Ipeople on the coast recorded a vote necessary to have a high tariff. And adverse to Federation and the goldfields whom did Mr. Barton on that occasion vote were wholly and unanimously in quote as his authorit 'y for the statement? favour of Federation, the effect would be The authority was no other than, the right to split Western Australia into two hon. gentleman who is now leader of the sections-[SEVnRAL MEMBER$: Hear, Opposition in the Federal Parliament, and hear] -and that evils worse even than who mtoved the no-confidence motion in those of Federation, would ensue. That question. Mr. Barton puinted out that, was why Federation was carried in this speaking in the New South Wales Legis- State, because the hand of the people on lative Assembly' ou the 21st February, the coast was forced by the people on the 1899-[MEmBER: That is a long time goldfields. back] -Mr. Reid said there was bound MR. GEORGE: And by English blood- to be a very high tariff, which was the money. price New South Wales was to ]lay for i MR. NMQSON: I am coming to that federation. [Several MEMBERS: Hear, now. I am glad the hon. member bear.] That utterance, as Mr. Barton mentioned it. I said it was difficult for went on to say, is sufficient to shatter me to conjure up sympathy for the people the suggestion that the Oommonwealth on the goldfields; but I withdraw the can have a low tariff, or what is remark, because I recognise those people ordinarily known as a revenue tariff. acted for the best and were misled. A Now these facts were known to the section of the community for which I people on the goldfields before the feel no sympathy, however, is those referendum wvns taken. The assertion London companies who intervened, and was reiterated again and again by a small intervened most unjustifiably, in the band of adherents of a lost cause in this federal campaign. [Several MEMERS: State, that federation must increase the Hear, hear.] Those companies inter- cost of living. And again and again, not vened by finding money, by finding a sum once only, but many times, that assertion of X1,000 in order to force federation on was met, not with argument but with the people of this State. flat. contradiction. it was contended that Mu. W. J. GEORGE: Three thousand Federation meant, not an increase in the pounds. cost of living, but a decrease in the cost MR. NANSON: A sum of £23,000, Of living. [SEVERAL MEMBE&S, Hear, was it? That makes the case three times worse. Let us ask ourselves For my own part, though I like what tohCar' !)8 sympathetic, I feel it difficult to was the object of the London companies conjure up much sympathy for the when they contributed the stun of £3,000 people of the goldfields in the mess into in order to force federation on us. which they have got themselves and, MEMBER: To get f ree-trade. unfortunately, this State. I may feel a MR. NANSON: We all know what certain amount of sympathy for the their object was. They, with their slight peple of the goldfields; because, after and superficial knowledge of Australian althe people were undoubtedly misled cinditions, had somehow or other got by their leaders. into their heads the idea that federation SEVERAL MEMBERS: Hear, hear. meant not only cheaper living, but also THE MINISTER FOR MINES: What lower wages. [SEVERAL MEMBERS: Hear, about the vote in Perth ? hear.] They went even farther than MR. NAlqSON: A vote in favour of that: They thought federation would Federation was cast in Perth; but had enable them to lower the wages of the it not been for the knowledge that the working men of this State. They thought 1766 Federal Tariff (ASSEMBLY.]ASML. Effectfec onnteSae the State. federation would act as it has acted in I Mn.. Hioannr:- We are doing so. the United States, would impose a highly I M-R. NANSON: Let uts suggest in conservative form of Government, which IWhat direction we want the tariff m odified. would block the demands of the Labour The mnember for Fremantle (Mr. Higham) party. Of course, I know they were tells us that such representations are absolutely and utterly wrong. I know being made; and I am glad of it, because that had they taken the trouble to study 1that is the right course to take. I know the Federal Constitution with any degree ithat where representations have been of closeness they would have realised that Made by a chamber of commerce in that it was the most democratic constitution way to Mr. Barton, the Federal Prime- the world had ever seen. They thought Minister, a, repiv has been received that the that a highly centralised. Government, question is receiving the attention of the away somewhere in Sydney or Mel- IFederal Government. [Several Mmix- bourne, would not be open to labour * BEs: Oh !] Of course, a&reply of that lpressure from this side of the continent. *kind raises a smile from the Labour bunch; In some mysterious way, because they *because its occupants have had some did not recognise that labour troubles Iexperience of whatt the reply amounts to can be settled without the intervention of I when received from certain gentlemen the Federal Government, they thought I now on our Treasury bench. But such that a higbly centralised Government a reply in the case of the Federal Govern- would be able to bring pressure to bear mient is not an empty form. Moreover, on labour organisations here, and to keep the West Australian Chamber of Manu- the aspirations of those organisations in factures would not be acting alone in check. Hence those companies subscribed this matter. It would be acting in concert the sum of £3,000, and now they are in with chambers of commerce and manu- the position of the engineer who is " hoist factures throughout the Commonwealth. with his own petard." They acknowledge There is no reason whatever why the now what they refused to acknowledge chambers of commerce and manufactures before, that the local tariff, that trf in this State should not take concerted with which the name of Sir John Forrest action with similar chambers in other will be for ever honourably associated- 1parts of the Commonwealth. Our Cham- [Several MEMBERs: Hear, hear] -had ber of Mines might co-operate with other several good points after all; that it did chambers of mines, if there be any in not impose such heavy burdens on industry other parts of Australia. There is no as some hon. members have tried to reason why they should not equally join persuade us it did; that it was a tariff Iin making their representations to the under which it was possible to live; anid Federal Parliament. I do not wish to that it is possible to have a. tariff which contend for a moment that the duties on does not suit the interests of the State to mining requisites might not with advan- an equal degree. I suggest that the tage be amended in some particulars. House, instead of expressing at this stage Gener-ally speaking, however, we caunot an opinion on the tariff, leave the various escape from the conclusion that this tariff chambers of commerce and of manufac- follows what L. as a protectionist, at any tures. and similar bodies to make repre- rate regard as the sound rule of seeing sentations to those members of the Federal that the wining industry is used as a6sort Parliament who represent Western Aus- of fulcrum or lever in order to establish tralia. That is the usual course, and the permanent industries in our midst. Let normal course; and hon. members are Ius look at the question in this way. We much more likely to achieve a modification know that the mining industry cannot of the tariff in the direction they desire remain hero for ever: sooner or later it if, instead of supporting a miotion which moust tome to an end. Sooner or later, is practically a blow in the eye to the however immense the stores of gold Barton Government, and a. blow at Sir in the soil of this country may be, John Forrest personally, representations sooner Or later those stores will be are made in the usual, and normal, and exhausted, and we shall have to look to constitutional way, by briniging pressure something else for our prosperity, to some- to bear on our representatives in the thing else to keep our people employed. Federal Parliament. If the figures quoted by the member for Federal Tariff: [23 OCTOBER, 1901.] FedealEffectarif: 2.3OCTBER on the191.] State. 1767

Coolgardie be correct, that only five per people in the State, it will not be by the cent, of the mining companies are making aid of the great mining companies, but it any profit, and the other 95 per cent. of will be by the aid of that admirable the mines are working at a loss, it may system which the present Minister for not be a matter of centuries, but perhaps Mines is doing his best to advance, that of half a century at the most. Assuming, of providing public batteries and cyanide however, that it should be a matter of plants on the goldfields of this State; so centuries, then I say we have not only to that the men who work the mines think of our imumediate concerns, but we will not be undor the necessity of going have to think of our children and those to England and floating for enormous who will come after us; and we have to sums the properties they are striving to unite in helping to build up in Western hold, but that they will have an oppor- Australia industries which will give tunity of getting their ore crushed, and employment to every section of the com- in that way the men who actually dis- munity. The hon. member has told us covered the mines will be those who will that under the Federal Tariff many of the get the benefit of working them. It is a mines will be wiped out of existence; moot point as to the value of English therefore if 95 per cent. of the mines are capital, despite the immense amount of already working at a loss, I do not know good it has done here, whether taking that the position will be very much worse one thing with another you will find it has by reason of the tariff. But what has not also inflicted almost an equal amnount surprised and pained me is that the of evil. When we think of the scandals mover should have joined the ranks of the resulting from the operations of company pessimists. The other night it was my promoters in London, when we think of plea sing duty to congratulate the Colonial the ill repute which our gold resources Treasurer on having joined the ranks of are brought into by these scandals, while the optimists; but I can conceive no giving every credit that is due to the gentleman who corresponds to the introduction of foreign capital, it is character of the optimist more than impossible to deny that we have not had the member for Coolgardie, who looks the to pay very heavy prices for that capital, very embodiment of contentment; there- in many instances. We -will have reason fore I suggest that he should change to bless this Federal Tariff if it make places with the Colonial Treasulrer and mining in this State more of a national rank among the optimists, while the and local industry, and less of an indus- Colonial Treasurer ranks among the i try in the hands of the company pro- pessimists. We have heard a. great deal moter and the absentee owner. I do not about the burden which this tariff imposes desire to go into that huge, vast, and on the mining industry; but does this, unfathomable question of free-trade and burden approximate to the burden which protection: it can lead. to no good to has been imposed on mining hy company have an interminable debate on the promoters iu London ? Has not that merits and demerits of these two rival system of company promoting been to a. fiscal systems; therefore I will make no great extent the reason why so many attempt to follow the line of argument mining companies in this State are at th~e taken up by the member for Coolga-rdie present time unable to pay their way ? in regard to what free-trade has done for Is it not a fact that in a great number of New South Wales and what protection instances, the enormous over-capitalisa- has done for Viotoria, I do not desire tion of wining properties has made it to discuss the tariff in detail, nor to impossible for those properties to re- raise a long debate which cannot have turn a profit to the shareholders and any useful or practical result, how- aLt the same time pay working expenses? ever interesting it may be to us indi- I must confess that, though not speaking vidually. As a. protectionist, I see no with the experience of the member for reason to object that this Federal Tariff Coolgardie, and making the confession is protective in its incidence, so far as the for what it is worth, I say if the mining financial needs of the States and of the industry of this State is ever to be a Commonwealth will permit; but there national industry and to provide the would be indeed cause for lamentation greatest possible amount of benefit to the were it based on the economic sophistries 1768 Federal Tani: [SSML.J[ASSEMBLY.] EffectEfcto on thekeSae State.

of the free-trade doctrinaires. If we know policy will strengthen and develop the the tendencies that are dominating the national character, and will make it political thought and action throughout unyielding to the shallow pleas of depre- the Commonwealth to-day, we are irre- ciation or the blandishments of the new sistibly compelled to the conclusion that sun of prosperity. A protective policy, as Australia is protective in her internal it has been well said, embodies a system and her social legislation, so also 8110 that gives strength to the citizen and must be protective in her commierce with stability to the State. In a matter of the outside world. The tariff recognises so much moment, no portion of the this principle. I do not for one moment Commonwealth can afford to halt between contend that the tariff is perfect in every two opinions. If we decide to fetter particular; but what I do assert is that our aspirations and set limits to our within the four corners of this tariff you endeavours, we cannot hope to prove an will find the germ of a wise statesman- exception to all experience of enlightened sh~ip and a courageous policy that will communities; but ours will be the lot of give to Australia permanent and growing those who piaco their dependence on prosperity; a policy that will enable us one industry, on one source of wealth, to attain our highest ideals; a policy that neglecting or sacrificing other sources and will raise us to the very apex of nation- other means of employment which should hood. Accept it, and we continue in the be available to a community. If, on the path of progress: reject it, and we con- other hand, we decide not to foster a demn ourselves to a lower plane of fancied one industry at the expense of existence. Accept it, and we give to our every other, but to encourage and to assist people the fullest field for the exercise of all those industries for which our country their abilities, their industry, and their and oar people are adapted, then we shall talents: reject it, and we confne them to be laying the foundation of an edifice a few elementary industries, and we close which will worthily embody our character to them the door of some of the most as a. people, and on which the waves of elevating and useful spheres of human adversity will dash themselves mn vain. enterprise and endeavour. Accept it, and Tns PREMIER (Hon. G1. Leak-c): we affirm our faith in the unnumbered After the burst of eloquence and the potentia-lities of our country: reject it, flight into the realms of fancy of the and we stand condemned before the member for the Murchison, and in order world as a nation that is neither confident to prevent myself from soaring to those in itself nor ashamed of its own cowar- giddy heights, I say in the words of a dice. It has been stated that. what modern author, "1Chops and tomato spells advance to other parts of Aus- sauce!1" (Laughter.) The hon. member tralia spels retrogression to ourselves. has convinced us of one thing, and it is I leave such misgivings to the dreamy this: a, renunciatiou of the ideas he held and weak-kneed fanaticism of those who duiring the federation campaign. Then I believe Western Australia has -no better understand the hon. nmember posed as a fate, no worthier ambition, than the strong anti-federalist; but 'when we find, mining camp and the sheepwalk; who this evening, that he speaks of the policy believe that not for us are tbe blessings of the preseut Federal Government as one of agriculture and the wider culture that which will carry as to the very apex of springs from manufacturing industries. nationhood, I conceive he is now a con- So far from sharing in those narrow verted federalist of the very highest niews, T have faith in our country, faith order. So far as that is concerned, in our people, faith in their genius, faith I congratulate the hon. member. But in their manifest destiny. The ideal of this evening is is no concern of mine those who condemn this tariff is not for to discuss the merits or demerits of what is best, but for what costs the federation, nor does the fact that the least. They think no sacrifice too great, Federal Government have proposed a so long as they are pursuing and prac- I particular tariff for Australia cause me tising the cardinal principle of their to waver in the slightest degree in my economic faith-the deification of cheap- adherence to federation. I am still it ness, of cheap goods, of cheap wages,I federalist, anad should be whatever the and of cheap living. A protective tariff might be, because I consider the Federal Tariff: [23 OCTOBER, 1901.] Effect on the State. 1769 tariff, whatever it may be. a mere incident of this House, to all intents, in the Federal in the career of federation, though it is Ministry. If the honl. member says that an incident which undoubtedly will affect was not his intention, I will say no more the whole of Australian citizenship. And on that point. particularly am I entitled, as other mern- ME. NANsoN: No; it is not. It is my hers are entitled, to regard the question intention to vote in the terms of the from the point of view of how it affects amendment. the State interests. Whilst of course we THE PREMIER: Perhaps I and Other are imbued with the general idea that the members who think with me have drawn policy of any Federal Government must a wrong inference from the observations be for the benefit of Australia as a whole, of the boll. member, and that is very we cannot, so long as we remain constantly the case when we are debating politicians sand men, resist the temptation questions in the House. That is no to criticise adversely that which touches reason why we Should not give vent to us personally as inidividuals and as a the ideas running in our minds. I do State, as this question of the Federal not, as I said, propose to discuss the Tariff does. And I say at once, there- merits of federation, or the necessity, for fore, that I intend to support the member maintaining the sliding scale. Those are for Coolgardie in his original motion, and questions outside the present motion. I am opposed to the amendment of the Whether I admit or not the very great member for the Murchison (Mr. Nanson). power of Sir John Forrest, or the I do not think the member for Coolgardie magnitude of his reputation, that also is brought this motion forward with the beside tbe question. Hon. members who idea that this House should arrogate the have studied the debates of the last five right to declare no confidence in the or six years will know that I was not Barton Ministry. always in accord with the right bo. MR. MoOANS: Not at all. gentleman; and I do not desire to aim a THE PREMIER: If that were the blow at the right holl. gentleman, nor do hall. member's view, I should not support I think it necessary to drag his name the motion, or I should add some words unnecessarily into this debate, either for that would take away from the motion the purpose of censure or for the purpose such anl unnecessary sting. But the of praise. But Sir John Forrest claims member for the Murchison frankly avers to himself, I notice by the telegraphic that this motion is one of no-confidence. reports in the daily newspapers, credit MR. NANSON : I said it would be for having established, in this State accepted as such. during his career, a free breakfast table. THE PREMIER: And frankly admits I cannot admit that, though I do that his intention in moving his amend- recognise the fact that, perhaps with that ment is to express absolute confidence in object in view he removed the duties the Federal Government. from tea, sugar, and from fencing wire. MR. NAwsoN : The Federal Parliament. I have, I say, as a member of this House, MR. TAYLOR: Sir John Forrest. a perfect right to discuss this tariff as it THE PREMIER: I understand, in the affects the State. If we take the personnel Federal Ministry, and, as the hon. mem- of our representatives in the Senate and ber says, in Sir John Forrest. the Lower House of the Federal Parlia- Ma. NANsON: The Federal Parliament menit, you will find we sent there all is mentioned in the amendment: it does free-traders with the exception of not mention the Federal Government. one - perhaps one other maty halve Tnz PREMIER: Ilam notiquestioning been half-hearted. I believe Senator the mere wording of the motion. De TLargie was a protectionist. That MR. Ntqsox: You have to vote on the is abundant proof that the paramount amendment, or against it. feeling in this., State was in favour THE PREMIER: Ilam going to vote of free-trade. If not in favour of against it, and I am going to vote against free-trade, at any rate against this it because I do not believe in it: that is ultra-protection which now prevails, and the chief reason. The general tenur of which has prevailed for many years in the the hon. member's remarks was that this neighbouring State of Victoria. And if amendment would declare the confidence a compromise was at any moment in con- 1770 Federal Tariff: [ASSEMBLY.]fSEBY] EfectEfcnteSae on the State. templation, it was that either the free- and if therefore we express an opinion trade or the protectionist party should adverse to the Federal Tariff, we give way-that both should give way to strengthen the hands of each individual a certain extent-and that there should Senator to such an extent that he will be be a revenue tariff. I have not heard forced to fight as hard as he tan in order anybody yet declare their honest belief to advance not only his own views, but that the proposed Federal Tariff is a the views he well knows are entertained revenue tariff. Nor do the Ministers by his electorate. Inasmuch as the of the Federal Parliament claim to them- Senate represents the States by equal selves that this is a revenue tariff. They representation, therefore it is there the have exulted in the idea thai. they have smaller States -and wve are one of the brought forward a protective tariff, and smaller or less populous States-can they intend to stand or fall by it. The make their voice heard and where their member for Coolgardie has pointed out votes will carry the greatest weight. how it will affect, in his opinion adversely, Consequently, it is due to us, by every many of the interests of this State1 and I ]egitimate effort, to render the greatest agree with nearly everything the hon. possible assistance and encouragement to member has said: aud that being so, I our Senators to induce them to briug feel it is peculiarly within my province as pressure to bear on the Federal Govern- leader of the Government here, and ment, and prevent them. doing what we representing a certain number of people believe, and I think what they will admit, and the trend of political thought, to is an injustice to the people of this State. express my views on this great question, But whatever we do must be dlone in a with the idea not only of assisting to respectful and in a proper manner; and guide the opin ions of our own people, but nobody, however adverse his views may of assisting our representatives in thle be to the principle propounded by the Federal Parliament to resist the imposi- member for Coolgardie, can say this tion of these high protective duties. motion is couched. in anything but the That is the chief object we should most respectful language; and it can go all have in view. Uf in Parliament forth, I hope, as an expression of opinion and in our own electorates we are in a of the elected members of this State, position to carry resolutions by large representing all parts of the State and all majorities, and thus to affirm the enthu- shades of political opinion. I shall there- siasm of the people and to declare fore support the motion, and urge. emphatically that they are opposed to members on both sides of the House to this tariff, then we shall no doubt do the same. It is no party question materially assist those who represent us whatever: it is one of general application. in Melbourne and who will be called on I do not even know what views my col- to cast their votes for or against this leagues entertain on the subject, and I measure. If we show a lukewarness or shall not feel aggrieved if I find any of a haljf-heartedness in the consideration of them. voting against mue on this question. the matter here, where we are supposed We are here, not as representing any to more accurately judge public opinion, petty little party politics, but struggling we perhaps cannot blame our representa- with one of the biggest problems and tives if they vote in the wrong direction, ideas that has yet engaged the attention because they are justly entitled to say, of Australasia; therefore I approach this " If your feelings were so strong, why question with all1 deference and with all did yon not take means to express them respect, but still strong in the belief that and convey them to us, so that we could [ am advocating the right cause, and the more emphatically express the justified in appealing to members to sup- opinions of those whom we represent, by port the motion. our votes ?" And more especially is it Mn&. 11. DAGLISH (Subiaco): I should necessary for us to strengthen the hands not have spoken this evening, but it of our Senators. It should be remem- appears to me that an attempt has been bered the Senators in the Federal Par- made to make this a, question of free- liament represent, not sections of the trade against protection. I rise, as a community, but the people of the State protectionist, to give my adherence to as one electorate, as one big voting body ; the motion of the member for Coolgardie, FederalI Tariff: [23 OCTOBER, 1901.] Effect on the State. 1771

because I do not think in any way the motion; because the member for Cool- motion is aimed at the protective nature gardie practically said all that needed of the tariff that has been introduced. saying. He demonstrated fully, I think, But, as far as I have been able to gather, the necessity from the mining man's these very words, without consideration point of view7 of carrying such a motion of their niceties of meaning, are very often as this. It has been urged by the mem- made battle-cries, while the real differ- ber for the Murchison thatwe should leave ences between the contending parties are it to chambers of manufacturers, chain- very slight indeed. I remember years bers of commerce, and chambers of mines ago, in Victoria, the home of protection to pass resolutions in regard to the tariff. in Australia, there was a great battle, in But these various bodies represent only which all those who advocated 25 per a few classes of the comm unity: they do cent. duties were alleged by those in the not represent the mass of the people. community who called themselves pro- [MR. HorniNs: Hear, hear.] We in tectionists to be nothing short of this House represent the great body of free-traders. It was held that the men the people; and I contend that nothing who advocated moderate protective duties can be more plainly our duty than, if we of 25 per cent. were absolute f ree-traders. think the interests of the State are at As a matter of fact, one of the main stake, to speak at once, and with no points against this tariff, in my opinion11, uncertain sound. As a matter of fact, is that it is not a protective tariff to a the motion is aimed not at the tariff as a very large extent, but has the worst whole, but merely at one or two of its features of a free-trade tariff, inv that it items; and we are not expressing, if we casts the revenue duties on the necessaries carry the motion, any vote of want of of everyday life. In regard to protection, confidence in the present Federal Admin- we have to consider that its main object istration. We are not doing that; but is to nurture infant industries. The if we carry the amendment which has mining machinery industry is one which been proposed, we are practically saying has been in existence in Victoria, dlose to that we are perfectly satisfied with the the mining industry itself, for the last tariff as it stands at the present time. 40 years. It has enjoyed all the advan- [Several MEmBERs: Bear, hear.] A tages of protection in that State for no motion has been proposed attacking the less a period than 40 years; and Surely tariff; and if an amendment of any if protection is ever to build up industries description on that motion be carried, in the fashion which the member for the then this House, in carrying the amend- Murchison has so glowingly described, ment, is virtually endorsing the whole of surely' in 40 years some strength should the tariff as promulgated by the Barton have been imparted to) the mining Ministry. I urge members to hesitate, machinery industry in the State of Vic- and to hesitate for a long time, before toria. [MR. MORGANS: Hear, bear.] As a they take so momentous a step. The matter of fact. Victoria Still bas, and South member for the Murchison argued that if Australia still has, an enormous advan- the tariff would make mining more of a tage in competing with England and the local industry, it would not be doing United States for the Western Australian harm. I am inclined to support the market. Victoria and South Australia motion proposed by the member for Cool- have the enormous advantage of distance, gardie because I think the tariff will and the consequent.great saving in freight. have exactly the contrary effect: I These two States have farther had the think it will make mining an in- advantage of being during all these dustry which will require a. greater years close to the main gold-producing amount of capital thani it requires at districts of the world, of being part of the present time. The difficulty of the main gold-producing country of the winning the gold from the earth is world. I contend, therefore, that if already very great; and the amount this industry can be built up by pro- of costly mining machinery required tection at all, it must have been is especially great in Western Australia, built up before the present day. I because of the number of refractory ores rose, however, not for the purpose of which have to be contended with. If we saying much in justification of the add to the cost of that machinery by 1772 Federal Tariff: [S~EL.[ASSEMBLY.] Effectfto.teSae on. the SWa, imposing a heavy duty, if we raise the an clement of great danger to the Eastern price of it by the operation of the tariff, States. I therefore urge that in the we shall naturally restrict the number interests of the whole of Australia it is who can engage in wining, and we shall necessary to build up here as thriving, as ma~ke it necessary for mining companies populous9, and as prosperou s a comunity to be even more heavily capitalised tban as possible. We must conserve the mining they are at the present time. I contend industry as well as our other natural that instead of encouraging the establish- industries. At the same time, I trust ment of local industries, the operation of Ithat those sections of the tariff which this tariff will be to make it far more will help to build up some of what are difficult to establish local companies than called artificial industries will likewise it has been in the past. The member for be conserved. But I1urge the House to the Murchison urged us to view the ques- pass the motion proposed hy the member tion as Australians, and not fromn the for Coolgardie not olyl" in the interests selfish standpoint of citizens of an in- of the mining corn innity, but in the dividual State. But I ask the members interests of the people in the coastal of this Rouse whether the people in the districts, who are largely dependent for other States are looking at the question their own welfare and prosperity on the as Australians, or looking at it from the welfare and prosperity of the mining same point of view as ourselves ? 'Why districts. We can never hope to establish has the tariff in its present form been those artificial industries which the propoundedP Why are the Victorian member for the Murchison is so anxious- members in the Rouse of Representatives to see established, unless we have within according it such strong support ? Is it thes State some market for their products; not because they recognise that it will and so, if we arc to have prosperous build up the manufactures, not of Western Imanufacturing industries established in Australia, but of Victoria, because they Perth and Frernantle, and the surround- recognise that it will encourage the ing district, we must have a goldfields establishment of new industries, not in population providing a market for those Western Australia, but in Victoria? industries. In the interests, there fore, of MR. RESIDE: In Australia. those industries which the hon. member MR. DAGLISE: And we find thiat the and 1, as protectionists, hope to see taiff- established, I shall certainly record a vote MR. RESIDE : Victoria is Australia. in favour of the motion. Mnt. DAGLISH:- Victoria. is part of MR. F. WILSON (Perth): I c;onsider Australia; and we have to consider that the motion of the member for Coolgardie here in this State we have a much larger a very proper one to bring before this part of Australia, whose interests are Assembly, notwithstanding the eloquence likewise to be conserved. It is our duty, pof the member for the Murchison, who not only from the local point of view, but first declared that he did not wish to from the Australian point of view, to enter into the relative merits of free-trade build up our own particular State, and to and protection, and then wound up his conserve the interests of our particular Ispeech by a peroration such as we State. For if there be on the Western Fseldom hear within the four walls of this side of the continent a. large area of Ibnilding, exultingly claiming the advant- country sparsely populated or hardly Iages of protection for Western Australia. populated at all, it will form an absolute Notwithstanding that eloquence, I yen. menace to the whole of the Eastern States. ture to think that this Assembly is If, for instance, at any time in the sitting here to look af ter and protect to a, future, the people of Australia are great extent the particular industries of dragged into some international compli- Western Australia. We are here to cation which results in war, and we then legislate for Western Australia; not for have in Western Australia a country the Cown monwealth ; and I think we have almost unpopulated, to which an enemy an example very much in point in the can therefore gain ready admittance, and history of another federated country, to we have farther, in the meantime con- wit, Canada. We find there that after structed the transcontinental line, our federation was brought about, the State lack of population, our weakness, will be of British Columbia had debate after Federal Tariff: f23 Ocronsn, 1901.] Effect on the State. 1773 debate in her local Parliament on federal Ifight the question out when the federal matters which interested that State more elections were being held to determine particularly. The Parliament of British whom we should send to represent our Columbia went so far, I believe, on one views, It appears to me to be abso- occasion, as not only to pass a vote of lutely clear that this question of protec- censure on the Dominion Government, tive or revenue tariffs is one we must but also to threaten forcible resistance to debate, not only here, but outside, in thre the laws, if the compact with itself were Ivarious chambers of commerce and manu- not carried out. Of course, I do uot for factures, or it amounts to this. So far a moment advocate such a course in this as we in Western A ustralia are concerned, Assembly. We can debate matters which we have not up to the present established affect our interests and our prosperity in these artificial industries, these industries a calmer manner than that. If we pass which have been built up, as in Victoria, the motion proposed by tihe member for by artificial means, but depend on our Ooolgardie, our action cannot have even great natural industries; and the one the semblance of a threat, so far as the main industry which the member for Federal Ministry are concerned. The Coolgardie has dealt with so fully to- motion is moderately worded, and simply night, the gold-mining industry, is cer- indorses the views of the bulk of the tainly the niost important so far as we members whom we have returned to the are concerned, being, as it is, the largest Federal Parliament. It indorses the views employer of labour and the greatest pro- *which were expressed at the time of the ducer of wealth in its own direct manner; Federal elections in the early part of the and not only that, but also the industry present year. I venture to think that the which maintains every other industry of motion, if passed, will have this effect, our State, and thus gives an enormous and this effect only-to strengthen the amount of employment indirectly. I heads of our representatives in the think we must consider this matter: we Federal Parliament. It will biring pro- are perfectly within our rights in doing minently before the representatives of Iso; and we can go so far as to argue other States the opinion of the people of Iwhether the protectionist tariff which has this State, as voiced by their representa- been introduced by the Barton Ministry tives in this Assembly. It will show Mr. is preferable in this connection, namely in Barton, the Federal Premier, and his respect of ourmining industry, to arevenue Ministers that the people of Western Itariff based, as we would like to see it Australia are not satisfied with the based, on free-trade principles. I, for Federal Tariff which has been promul- one, declare at once that I am in accord gated; and by that means I hope it will with the member for Coolgardie. I do be the cause of the tariff being modified not think the tariff, as put forth, will to a very large extent. I want to point advance the great industry of mining in out that the member for the Murchison Western Australia; nor do I think that trenched on debatable ground, inasmuch it will assist any of our other main as he not only entered f tally, in his final natural industries. I will go a step farther, remarks, into the question of protection and say the tariff is certainly not in the and f ree-trade, but also wade some yerv inter-ests of the general public of our State. disparaging remarks with regard to I think with the member for Subiaco federalistsgenerally. He said no federalist (Mr. Daglish), that although there are would have dared to advocate a free-trade federalists and anti-federalists in this tariff-- Assemibly-of cou-se with the federalists MR. NANSoN: I saidl nO leading predominating-we may all discuss this federalist. question, and may, whether federalists MR. WILSON: The hon. member or anti-federalists, come to an absolutely says, no leading federalist would have unanimous decision tosupportthis motion. dared to advocate a free-trade tariff; but And we may fairly do so, and oppose the I think many leading federalists, not tariff as promulgated by the Barton only in the other States but also in Ministry, because the question is not as Western Australia, did advocate a tariff to whether that tariff is going to affec-t based on free-trade principles, did dare to the whole ol the Commonwealth in a advocate that tariff, and did dare to detrimental manner, but it is as to 1774 Federal Tartj: [ASSEMBLY.] Effect on the State. whether the tariff is going to affect our have been in existence for some 30 or 40 industries and the welfare of our State years, and therefore cannot be considered detrimentally. In this connection I as infant industries, but must be regarded should like to a-y that I take strong as having grown old under the fostering exception to the jibes that have been protection of Victorian tariffs passed from thrown against federalists, and the time to time. And now that it is pro- attempt that has been made to place the posed by some of uts that this protection responsibility of this tariff on those who should be removed, at any rate in regard advocated federation during the federa- to the duties on mining machinery and tion campaign in this State. The agricultural implements, then we shall importance of federation is one which is have Victorian representatives rising far and away beyond ay question of a almost in a body an d protesting against customs tariff. We are proud as free- the removal of those duties. Not only traders that federation has gone a long does it affect our mining representatives way towards those free-trade principles iand agriculturists, but it also touches we have advocated, and I am speaking the timber industry and the pastoral of those who think as I do on that industry. But it goes farther, for not question. We have swept away the only have we to suffer enormous duties, customs barriers between the different quadrupled so far as mining machinery States, and have made large strides in in this State is concerned; but we have the direction of free-trade; therefore I also those duties which are to be imposed say again that as free-traders or even as on wearing apparel and the necessaries of protectionists we may accept federation life. From my point of view, the future as an accomplished fact that is going to so far as our people are concerned is stand for all time, whereas the matter of going to be hard. I do not think the a customs tariff is here to-day and may be mover has exaggerated the position when gone to-morrow. We havethe Barton tariff he states that the cost of production will before us to-day, and perhaps in a few be increased enormously, and that the weeks or months we may have a re-tariff cost of living must of necessity be in- to consider; and whether we believe in creased, and the result must be to retard free-trade or protection, whether the Ithe progress of our State. We have in tariff will act in the interests of the State I this State almost a third of the whole we represent or be detrimental to this area of the Commonwealth, an enormous State, I may say the question as to heritage to develop; and surely it is a fit whether this is a. revenue tariff or a pro- and proper subject for discussion in this tective tariff is one that is settled beyond Assembly, if we believe honestly that the doubt by the incidence of taxation as set Ieffect of this tariff will be to retard the forth in the tariff. No one can argue that, progress of this great portion of the a duty of 25 per cent, on mining Commnonwealth. Surely it goes fa machinery or a duty of 15 per cent. on Ibeyond orwnboundaries, for it is also agricultural implements can be con- in the interests ofthe other States that sidered a revenue duty. When we find I Western Australia should advance with that this mining machinery and these the enormous wealth she has in her gold agricultural implements are manufac- mines yet to be developed, and the tured to a large extent in the Eastern immense employment which such deve- States, it must of necessity appeal to lopment will give to labour in this State. members that the result is to retard It must of necessity appeal t.. the people the importation of that class of ma- of this State and in this Aqsembly, chinery, in order that we may satisfy hut it must also appeal to those who to a, large extent the greed, I may represent other States, that their progress term it, of the manufacturers in Vic- and their advancement are wrapt up in toria and in South Australia. That the progress and advancement of Western is the position, from my point of v iew. Australia. I want briefly to remark, in There are certain industries which have Iregard to the protective tendency of the been established for many years, in Vic- representatives of Victoria in the Federal toria especially; and, as was properly Parliament. and notwithstanding the pointed out by the member for Subiaco weak-kneed policy of some of those who (Mr. Daglish), these are industries which Iprofess free-trade leanings, that we have Federal Tariff: [23 OCTOB ER, 1901.] Effect on the State. 1775 a report of a wonderful meeting held in under the notice of the member for the Melbourne last night, held in that Murchison (Mr. Nauson) the glorious enormous town-hall in the very centre of freedom which the people of this State protection, and crowded from floor to enjoyed when they were blessed with the ceiling, besides thousands of other people tariff promulgated by Sir John Forrest, unable to gain admission; and we learn and which pressed on the people to the that so soon as the question was put at extent of five guineas per head per annum, that meeting as to whether the people against one pound per heaod in New South were in favour of this Barton tariff-- Wales, and two pounds per head in Vic- [Mn. MoRGANs: Before the addresses]- toria; a tariff which drew in foodstuffs before a word had been spoken, there alone over one pound per head from the was anr enormous and unanimous vote people; and yet that is a tariff which against the Barton tariff. This shows the Lon. member tells us we ought to be there is something wrong, without going proud of. On that point I do not agree into the details of the tariff. It shows with him. It is not necessary to discuss that even the people of Victoria have this motion at great length, for I take learned that the protective policy they it that this House has already made up have adopted for the last 20 or 30 years its mind as to what course it will take. in that State has not given the results The member for the Murchison, recog- they anticipated; and they h-ave realised nising thatthis Houseis the representative that the industries built up in the arti- Chamber for discussing this question, ficial protection of that State have not prefers that the question shall be dis- panned out as they were expected to do. cussed by the Chambers of Commerce In tact, those people now know that and the Chamber of Manufactures these industries have entered into a better throughout this State. That of course life and a stronger position in New South would be the ideal tribunal to which Wales than they could possibly do in protectionists would refer a question of protective Victoria. Hence this expres- this kind. For my' own part, I say that sion of opinion by the people assembled marniucturers are the people who will in that gigaintic meeting last night, an support the tariff of Mr. Barton and Sir expression of opinion that must echo and John Forrest; but at the same time, with re-echo throughout the States of the all due respect to the hon. member, I Commonwealth. I hope we will not be think it would be better for him to direct carried away from the matter under dis- his arguments not to the people who arQ cussion by any argument as to whether going to live on protection, but to the we are free-traders or protectionists. The people who expect to live on the policy question is simply whether this tariff is of the tariff which the Barton Govern- in the best interests of our State; and I inent have given effect to. I unhesitatingly think we are not parochial in our ideas give my support to the motion moved by when we consider it from our standpoint. the member for Coolgardie. and when we endeavour to bring all the MR. R. HASTIE (Kanowna): I think pressure we can lo bear on those who the member for Boulder was somewhat represent us and on those who are in unfair in assuming that if this matter power in connection with federal matters. was referred to the local Chamber of I hope the House will pass the motion Manufactures, that body would take tip unanimously, and that it will be passed the view enunciated by the member for on to the Federal Ministry and to every the Murchison. I think the manufac- member of the Federal Parliament, so turers of Western Australia, seeing that that they may know we have spoken as they have absolutely nothing to gain by representatives of our people in this State the duty on machinery, would vote with no uncertain voice, as to the effect against the tariff. From my experience that in our opinion this Federal Tariff of chambers of manufactures, I think will have on our industries. they look at things from their own stand- Ma. J. M. HOPKINS (Boulder): As point, like the rest of us. I cannot take briefly as possible, I wish to add a few the view which the membherfor theMur-hi- words in support of the motion so ably son asked us to take, to willingly sacrifice moved by the member for Coolgardie; ourselves, as we have been doing in and in doing so I should like to bring enriching the manufacturing section of 1776 Federal Tanif: [AS[ASSEMBLY.) BL.ontette gffed on ae State.

the community in the East. Every doubt if English companies were a.benefit member who has spoken, except Mr. to Western Australia, or not. Personally Hopkins, seems to consider it his duty to I agree with his view of the matter; I explain his position as a federalist. I have ai very strong doubt about it; but will not do so at length; I will only say on the other hand, as pointed out by the that since this tariff has been promul- member for Subiaco (11r, Daglish), if gated, it has been the habit of every you aild burdens to mines, you make person who has spoken and who was not mining dearer, and y ou put away any previously a, federalist to keep crying out prospect you might have of establish- I told you so." They cannot resist the ing mining on a greater scale in opportunity to tell us that two years iigo Western Australia. As regards the when we were strong federalists, we all question of the tax on machinery, predicted that we should have cheaper food I wish to emuphasise one particular and cheaper living; but that is not with in point. This is not aLrevenue tariff, If my recollection. I did not happen to be revenue were required, it seems to me in Perth at that time. I was on the absolutely certain wo could get a much Eastern goldfields, and I remember a larger revenue from a 10 or 15 per number of people spoke against federation, cent. tariff than from a 25 pser cent. andthey all had one song withontexception. tariff. A curious thing is that the tariff It was this, that if you enter federation is not required. It has been frequently you will have cheap food, which will be pointed out ini the House that for the followed by cheap wages. Everywhere last 30 or 40 years the manufacturers of we heard that, so far as my experience machinery in the other States have been goes. It is mainly those wvho at that protected, and now if there is anything in time opposed federation that have been protection, we should expect thle matnu- in the wrong, but the hour is too late to facturers could hold their own, Dluring discuss that question. I believe the the last few years we. have been getting House will see the necessity for passingr froin thle Eastern States fronm 4W to 45 this motion, so well proposed by the Iper cent. of the machinery for Western memlber for Coolgardie. I should only Australia. That shows that the people like to explain briefly one or two points in the East, when absolutely onl level which the member for Coolgardie did not termis with those of Great Britain, can illustrate sufficiently in connection with 1hold their own, and have continued to tining. Firstly there was one thing iincrease the ainoun ' of machinery which which he partly explained. It is not a they send to us. That shows to my matter of helping or retardling a rich mind conclusively that they have an mine--I would wish the House to re- advantage in any case. Although we member that you cannot kill a. rich might find fault with the inter-State mine-which can always look after duties, we cannot possibly in4;rease the itself. No tariff is likely to kill a rich inter-State duties on machinery. At the mine, but remember in every- country a present moment the duty is -5 per cent., rich mine is an exception. In the case aud all of us expected that the tariff on of a great majority of the mines it is machinery would have been 10 per cent. doubtful whether they are payable or In that case the manufacturers of the not. We have in this country a great East would have had aLbenefit over their many more people engaged in mining English rivals of .5 per cent. After all than what obtained a few years ago. and the question, as put forward by the mem- for this reason: we are now able to treat ber for the Minchiison. is simplyi whether on the goldfields ore that will give from the industry is tu get an advantage, or 6, 7, and up to 12 pennyweights. A few the people engaged in the manufacturing years ago we could not treat ores at a industry are superior to those engaged in profit sufficient to pay expenses, giving mining. There would be something in under one ounce. In the future I believe that if the member could show us that it we shall be able to treat ores giving a is possible that those engaged in manu- lower return: then a greater number of factures are bette-r off, that they onl an people will be employed on thbe gold- average have a bigger source of income, fields. The member for the Murchison have a higher rate of remnuneration than eloquently explained that there was a Ithose engaged in mining, but curiously Federal Tarzi [28 OCTOBER., 1901.1 Effect on the State. 1777 enough the reverse is the case. In South live at a comparatively cheap rate, they Australia and Victoria, where mining will be able to look over and develop new machinery is mainly made, the rate of ground. It was said that if this pro- income of people engaged in those indus- tective tariff is adopted, very soon if not tries is lower than the wages received by at present we shall be able to get all the those engaged in the mining industry. machinery we want from the East. I do The rate of wages in England is com- not think so. My own impression is that paratively good. it is absolutely impossible for the uianu- MR. Hopxiws: Better than here. facturers of the East for the next seven or MR. HASTIE: I am not quite sure ten years to supply us with the machinery that it does not average more than what which is required at present. Until that engineers receive here. The hon. member takes place we may expect to have in tells us glibly that mining is merely a Western Australia a ring that will charge temporary affair, and that it is necessary us to the very utmost for all the machinery for us to build up manufactures. Sup- required. Reference has been made here pose we had a lot of manufactures estab- to the fact that we should do something lished in Western Australia and we had for ourselves, that we should not be no mining here, what is there to manu- content to grumble at the Federal Govern- facture? What trade could you get? ment for imposing these duties seeing that ME. Hopxmws: Shifting sand. we have it within our power to reduce all MR. HASTIE: Mining is not temnpor- the items on the sliding scale. I will not ary ; it has not been so in connection with discuss that question at present. Members the goldfields in Western Australia,except will recollect that I gave notice of motion the temporary alluvial fields. WVe have for the reduction of the principal articles in this country four or five times of consumption on the tariff, and that greater area of goldfields than in any motion will come on next Wednesday. I other part of the world, and I believe it believe from the expression of opinion of will be 200 years before anyone can say most of the members, the motion will be that our goldfields are exhausted or carried. Farther we have a select comn- played out. To my mind mining is as mittee sitting on the food supply, and it permanent an industry as we can get. is to be hoped and I believe it will be the The member for the Murchison men- case that the committee will report to the tioned the figures which had been referred House at a very early date, and I hope in to by the member for Coolgardie. That that particular direction. Finally Iwould out of the amount of ground on lease, again urge the House tonas unanimously only 5 per cent. is owns d by companies as possible pass this motion proposed by paying dividends. I will go farther; if the member for Coolgardie. the companies paying dividends held TnE MINISTER FOR MINES (Hon. reasonable areas the percentage would be H. Gregory): As I am in sympathy with smaller, but unfortunately several coin- the motion brought forward by the paiswhich are paying dividends have a member for Coolgardie, perhaps it is not lager area of ground beside them which necessary to say anything except that I they will not be able to touch for the would not like the amendment to go forth next ten years. If the argument tells in without refutation. I consider the remarks any way at all, it does not tell in the way of the member for Ooolszardie have been the member for the Murchison assumed. to a great extent exaggerated. That is, in It tells in this way, the less mining regard to the terrible effects that might ground that is used at the present, more result to the mining industry in the is left. There are numbers of small event of this high tariff being imposed. I companies and small parties, and they do not think that even the imposition of have pieces of ground which they are this taxation will have such a very working at and finding remunerative. terrible effect on the industry; for the This tariff will tell not only on reason that we have already some copanies but on the wage earners. X3,000,000 worth of mining machinery Not aonly on the wage earner, but in this State, and that it is not to be there are a large number of people expected the importation of machinery in who do a good deal of work on their own the future will be on such a great scale account. In the future, if these men canu as it has been in the past. Still, at the 1778 Federal Tariff: EkSSEMBLY.][ASML.Ff'eankeSae gfect on the SWe.

same time, there is a great deal in the the special industries of this State-I may 2 contention that the imposition of the say the industry of this State; because if duty will do a certain amount of injury. the mining industry be injured, other That applies to the case of those of our industries here mnust suffer heavily. 1 do large companies which are at the present hope this motion will be carried unani- time trying to raise funds, and also to mously. I feel satisfied that if such is any low-grade propositions to be placed the case, some good must result. on the market. When we consider that Mu. J. RESIDE (Hannans):- As a up to the present time over £3,000,000 gold fields representative, I may say a,few worth of machinery has been introduced words on this question. I do consider into the State, under a 5 per cent, duty, that the member for Ooolgardie has been the total duty thus amounting to inclined to exaggerate somewhat. £150,000, whereas with a 20Zper cent. THE, COLONIAL TREASURER: Hear, duty the amount would have been hear. £750,000, it is easy to conceive what MR. RESIDE: The very mianner in damage the higher duty may do, particu- which the motion is framed is enough to larly in regard to low-grade propositions convey that idea. The lion. member says to be placed on either the Australian or that "the people of this State view the London market. If such a duty as with consternation the imposition of the 25 per cent. be imposed on mining Federal Tariff." machinery, a very great blow will be THE OOLONiAL TREAsuRER: No; he struck at our low-grade propositions. has, altered that. There must be acertain amnount of injury. MR. RESIDE: I do not think the Before the bon. member (Mr. Morgans) people of this State have any feeling of returned to the Chainber, I said some consternation about the Fedleral Tariff. of his statements were exaggerated, par- The hon. member farther saw fit to ticularly those in regard to the injury deride the ability of Victoria to manufac- that would be done to the mining industry. ture mining machinery. As a Victorian I think the industry is in such a poition myself, and as one who since boyhood now that it would be impossible, even by has been amongst mines and mnining a much higher duty, to injure it to the machinery, I say that as far as mnachinery extent which the lion. member predicts. for its own particular gold mines is There was, however, one very good argu- concerned,' Victoria. can manufacture ment. adduced by the hon. member-that machinery equal to any imported from no benefit will accrue to the people of this England. I ask, how is it that the State from the imposition of the high absentee or foreign mine owner in this duty. 1 have been informed before to-dlay State is always desirous of obtaining his that quotations given by Eastern manu- machinery from foreign countriesP Is it facturers have been withdrawn, with the simply because the directorates are est-ab- object of placing a higher figure on the lished. in the old country, and arc conse- articles. Those Eastern manufacturers quently mixed up with industries there, mean to take every advantage of the duty; and that thus it pawys them better to get and we are likely to receive no benefit at their machinery in the old country? I all from it. I may also point out to think it would be better for the mining21 members that if the motion be not carried industry if the duty on mining machinery to-night, it is extremely probable that the had not been so severe.. Farther, I sliding scale will be removed. The people think it would have been better if in this State will not, I think, put up with machlinery had been classified. There a high Federal Tariff and also the sliding are some classes of machinery which can scale. [Mmau : They cannot.] I feel well be made here, and protective duties sorry that an amendment has been moved, migh t well have been iminposed to a certain because I desired that the motion should extent on this class of machinery. In be carried unanimously by the House. regard to other classes, in which we I very much regret that any allusion has cannot compete with other countries, the been made to Sir John Forrest, or to the duties might have been made light. federalists or anti-federalists, or to the Therefore, we must consider the question policy of the Barton or any other Ministry. not only from a Western Australian We are simply trying to protect one of Istandpoint, but now that we have entered Federal Tarif: [23 OCTOBER, 1901.] Fedealffectarif: 23onCTOER,]90.J the State. I 779

into federation, from a federal, from an Motion (adjournment) put, and a divi- Australian, standpoint. As Australians, sion taken with the following result:- we have to look at this from a national Ayes ...... 11 standpoint; and whatever the policy of the individual States may be, I do not Noes ...... 26 think the Commonwealth can ever afford Majority against .. 14 to adopt a purely f ree- trade tariff. Ains5. NOES. MR. MoROANs:; Are you in favour of hMr.Connor Mr. Butcher taxing the people to the extent of 5s. per Mr. George Mr. IDngliah Mr. Harpe Mr. IEwing week on their food ? Mr.Hathinon Mr. Gregory MRn. RESIDE: I am not speaking to Mr. Tacoby Mr. Hantle Mr. Mne Mr. Hayward that question. I do not think the time SMr.Nno Mr. Hicks will ever , come when we can afford to Mr. Please Mr. R,gam Mr. Stoue Mr. Holes adopt a. pure free-trade policy. For this Mr. Throssefl Mr. okn Mr. Smith (Teller). Mr. Illiagworth reason: we 'have declared for a ,white Mr. Jobuson Australia." We ha-ie declared in favour Mr. igml Ir:Lak of keeping the dirty and nasty coloured Mr. McDonald alien out. Therefore, we cannot afford Mr. McWilLiams Mr. Morganse to let his goods in free. If we did, we Mr. Oats might as well allow the alien himself Mr. Ilasn Mr. Reid in. Mr. Beside Mr. Taylor Mu. HoP.KIns: We do not grow tea, Mr. Wallace you know. Mr. Yelverton MR. RESIDE -. In consideriug this Mr. Wilson (Telfer). question, we must also pay regard to the Motion thus negatived. fact that we have a certain amount of Mn. W. S. GEORGE (Murray):; I money to raise through the custom- had no intention of speaking on the house. Between eight and nine millions motion this evening. The matter is too are required from the custom-house at important in my opinion for a member to the present time. I would prefer not to have to rise hurriedly and speak on it; see all this revenue raised through the but rather than this debate shall lapse, I customs. I think it would be better if will try, without the aid of matter which the Federal Parliament considered the I bad been preparing (but did not expect question of direct taxation, if they went would be -required this evening), to place in for a land tax and an income tax, and some views before the House. So far as endeavoured to tax people who could I have gone into the Federal Tariff, I afford. to pay rather than the working- hope that tariff will not pass. In my man who cannot afford to pay. That is opinion, if it does pass, it will do mneal- the sort of taxation I would prefer. culable harm to the Commonwealth, and However, I do not think there can be will do a, tremendous lot of- injury to much harm done by passing this motion; almost every industry, if not every indus- nor do I think that much good can be try, in this State. It may be asked: done by passing it. The question is one what have the manufacturers to grumble for the Federal Houses to consider; and at in the tariff-they have got a protec- they will consider it in their own way, tion ranging -up to 25 per cent., and a whatever opinions 'we may express. possibility of bonuses far beyond the Speaking now, however, from that paro- dreams or expectations or imaginations chial standpoint which most members of even a Western Australian Pa~rlia- have adopted, I say that 1, as a mining mnentP The answer I give to that ques- representative, consider it would be better tion is, that if you give a, man a benefit if the duty on mining machinery were with one hand and with the other hand not so heavy. Under the circumstances, you take that benefit away, surely the I shall therefore support the motion. last state of that man is worse than the MRn. C. HARPER (Beverley): I first. The manufacturers in the Com- beg to 'move the adjournment of the monwealth get a protection up to 25 per debate. cent., and they enjoy with it the inesti- THE COLONIAL TnEsitgn: No; let mable benefit, which I hope they will us settle it to-night. appreciate at its full value, of paying on 1780 Federal Tarij: [ASSEMBLY.] Ejlect on the State. raw material, from which they have to much eloquence; but I hope I shall con- provide the finished article, a duty which, vince them, especially some who have taken altogether, nullifies practically the been absent, before I finish. In fact, I 25 per cent, of protection. The member have convinced two hon. members already, for Coolgardie gave an instance of a sir, and I think we are again without a 10-stamper battery complete, which be quorum. reckoned to cost about £3,000; and he THE SPEAKER:; I think there are seven- stated (his estimate being very near the teen members here now. mark) that the labour in producing Ma. GEORGE: Them I must try to that battery, the wages and the machin- entertain those seventeen members with ery, would probably be about £1,200. arguments that will appeal not only to That is very near the right proportion their sense of justice, but also to their with regard to it. The material that is sense of duty, by reminding them that necessary comes probably to as much as they are paid servants of this State, and the wages; and the balance of the money that in order to form a just opinion on should provide for working expenses, matters affecting the people of this State, interest on capital, and that which all they should attend in this Chamber and manufacturers and all men in business listen to whoever may be addressing the hope to see-the profit on the labour they House. expend. It has been stated, and it THE COLONIAL TrEArsumerr: Stone- cannot be denied, that under the new tariff walling! the cost of living will be considerably Mn. GEORGE: One Minister who is higher than before. Putting aside alto- in his place made an interjection about gether the Western Australian tariff, I say stonewalling. Does he look Like a man those arguments which were used by men who has anything to do with a stone here engaged in the anti-federal campaign, wall, or a brick wall, or any other kind of that the cost of living would be increased, wallP Let me recommend, with all due are now confirmed. Members who have respect to the Colonial Treasurer, that he spoken from the Government side of the will keep in those paths where he is House to-night have admitted what they practical, and when he comes to hard denied before, that the cost of living must work he will do what he has done all his necessarily be increased. If the cost of liv- life, give it the go-by. ing is increased, then necessarily this must THE COLONIA.L TREASURER: He works have a reflex action on the question of as hard as the hon. member. wages. If a man is getting 10a. aday in Mn. GEORGE: I am working very wages, and his cost of living is 75 or 80 hard at present, and amr earning my per cent, of the 10s., and if suddenly the £4 a week by the sweat of my tongue. cost of living rises more than the 80 per MR. J~coay: I call attention to the cent., necessarily he must demand, if he state of the House. The Government is to live fairly and decently as he ought should keep a quorum. to do, a higher rate of wages. Con- (Bells rung, and quorum formed.] sequently the manufacturer, with his 25 THE Spnxn: The rule is, thait on per cent. protection or bonus, is placed private members' nights it is the duty of in this position, that in his right hand private members to keep a House, and he holds the cake of 25 per cent. assist- not the duty of the Government. ance, and his left hand is weighed down Mn. GEORGE: I may say, in refer- by the fact that he has to pay more for ence to the Speaker's remark, that I do his raw material, that owing to the not know whether it is the duty of private increased price of living he has to pay members to keep a quorum, but I have and then, what have you been trying to keep a quorum. Unfortu- hghergt ? Thewages: empty shadow of protection, nately, some members find other attrac- which in the instance of manufacturers is tions, and go out of this Chamber. not worth having in any shape whatever. Tan SPEAKER: I said what the rule [ MR. GEORGE called attention to the was. because I noticed that the Whip state of the House. Bells rung and on the Opposition side stated it was the quorum formed.] duty of the Government to keep a House. MR. GEORGE (continuing): I am It is only the duty of the Government sorry indeed to inflict on members so to keep a House on Government nights. Federat Tarif: [23 OCTOBER, 1901.] Effect on the State. 1781

MR. GEORGE: I do not question the steamers' freight is sufficient to pro- your decision, sir. I was dealing, before tect the industries of this State. That I was so rudely interrupted b 'y the is an assertion which is made without absence of members who should have proper thought on the part of those who been in their places, with a, question make it. [Member interjected.] The which had been brought up by the mem- hon. member might not be aware that it ber for Coolgardie, in reference to the is impossible to prevent a person having duty on raw materials, and was showing Ia bad throat. that this so-called protection to the THE COLONIAL TREASURER:± You are industries of the Commonwealth is abso- not obliged to speak lutely a bladder which can be pricked by MR. GEORGE: Certainly I am. anybody who chooses to do it. Increase Perhaps it would be as well after that the manufactures of this State P-cer- remark, and in the present temper of the tainly not! Increase and better the House, to adjourn. I move the adjourn- posit-ion of the workers of this State ment of the debate. under this tariff P-certainly not ! What Motion put, and a division taken with will be the effect of the tariff on this the following result; State and on the workers in it ? Those Ayes ...... 14 who find the cost of living in the State is Noes ..19 too high for the wages which the manu- facturers will have the ability to pay, will Majority against do-what ? They candot stay here if AYE. their position is in the slightest degree Mr. Butcher r.faglish worse than it would be in the other Mr. Ewing fi r. Gregory Mr. George M, B.eMsti. States. The consequence will be that Mr. Haro At BlaHcks the mechanics, the artisans, ad the Mr. Hayward Mir. Holmes Mr. Hutchinson wr rHopkins tradesmen who have flocked to this State Mr. JaoyMr r. lisgrth during the last five or six years, among Mr. Na nMi r. Johnson Mr. Piessoe them beingsomeof the best tradesmen that Mrrrr. ake Mr.' Smith Mr. McDonald Australia has produced, men who would Mr. Stones X: rMcWilliams have established themselves in this State Mr. Tel verton Mr and would have established industries by Mr. Connor (Teller). M, .O'Connor which the present population and those rReside to come after them would be able to earn Air wages, and afford better opportunities r.Waface (Teller). than they could otherwise hope to obtain Motion thus negatived, and the debate -those men will have to leave the State continued. and take with them their belongings; MR. GEORGE rose to speak. and we Shall simply retain in this State THE SPEAKER: The hon. member those who are altogether dependent upon cannot speak again. the gold industry, while the bul1k of Amendment put, and negatived on the the artisans will be driven out of it, voices. to swell the competition and increase Main question put and passed. the wage-earners in the other States. MR. MORGANQS: I move that the It may be said that what affects the resolution be transmitted to the Prime other States will affect this State. If Minister of the Federal Parliament by the Eastern States axe injuriously affected, Mr. Speaker. so must the other States be. . But what THE COLONIAL TREASURER~ are the facts in connection with what Before that motion is put, I would like to is termed the iron trade P The facts Call the attention of the hon. member for are simply these: the raw material Coolgardie to. the fact that when he moved which it is necessary to manufacture the motion he altered the wording slightly, the goods from, either engines, batteries, but that alteration was not put in the or machines of that sort, has been motion. I think it was generally under- imported into the Eastern States at a stood that the word "consternation" far less cost than it can be brought into should give place to " much anxiety." this State, and at a far less rate than it MR. MORGANS: I am prepared to make can ever be brought in again. It is said that alteration. 1782 Federal Tanif: [ASSEMBLY.]ASMEY] EfedEec onnteSae the State.

THE SPEAKER: The hon. member be an intelligible proposition; but for did indicate the amendment, but he dlid this Parliament to arrogate to itself, when not ask leave to amend the motion. it is already- THE PREMIER: The hon. member Ma. MORGANS: In order to save the did mention it before the question was time of the House that will be involved put. It is not necessary to ask leave: in discussing this question, and as it is the mere indication of the hon. member's now very late, Ilam prepared to w ithd raw intention to make the amendment was my motion as to transmitting the Message suifficient. to the Federal Prime Minister. THE SPEAKER: If the House agree, THE SPEAX ICR: If there is no opposi- then the amendment will be made. tion to the motion, then it is withdrawn. Mn. NANSON: I would like to Mn. NAN SON: I desire to oppose the address a few observations to the House withdrawal of the motion. on the motion that the resolution be THE SPEAKEn : Then the motion is transmitted to the Federal Parliament. not withdrawn. I beg to submit that it is most unde- Mu. NANSON: I will proceed, if I sirable at this stage to transmit a. motion am in order, to state my objections to the to the Federal Parliament that criticises motion. I object to its withdrawal, be- the action of that body, which is a cause what does it amount to if we adopt superior Parliament, because it is a Par- that course?1 It means that the member liament that represents the whole of for Coolgardie loads a gun and then is Australia, whereas we represent but a' ashamed to fire it. It means that this single State. House passes a resolution, but is ashame d THu SPEBAKE R: The motion is that the to transmit it to the Prime Minister. If resolution be transmitted to the Prime we pass the motion- Minister of the Commonwealth. Mu. MonEs: We have passed it. Mn. NANSOIN: I submit to your cor- Ma. NANSON: Then let us go far- rection:. the principle, however is the ther. same. If we transmit to the Prime MR. HopxKiNs:. Why? Minister of the Commonwealth a resolu- Mx&. NANSON: I am opposed to tion of this description, there cani be no sending it on. [laughter.] Hon. mem- question, if there be any meaning at all bers laugh, and I can quite understand in the English language, that we are their doing so; because they happen to submitting a resolution that is condemn- be in the majority; but I am fighting in ing the Federal Government, the Federal this matter for the rights of the minority, Tariff, and the Federal Parliament. A and I will continue to do so despite the more sweeping motion, a more condein- laughter of hon. members, and despite natory motion never issued from any any other sort of organised obstruction Parliament House in Australia. Let us which may be brought to bear against for a moment look at the motion, analyse me. If I may, I shall continue my in- it word by word, sentence by sentence, terrupted argument as to the effect out- comma by comma., and funll-stop by full-1 side Western Australia of this motion. stop. What does the motion say: As I said, there can be no possible objec- That this Rouse views with macla anxiety tion to a motion which, without ex- the Federal Tariff which has been promul- pressing a general opinion on the tariff, gated, in view of the serious consequences that urges the Federal Government to reduce must result to the trade and commerce of this the duties in certain particulars. Let State, as weU as to the mining industry, which is one of the principal elements of prosperity ; hon. members ask themselves again and this House respectfully enters its protest what construction will be put on the against the imposition of the proposed tariff motion which we are now, or were in its present form. a just now, asked to transmit to the I quite understand that if this House Federal Prime Minister. Let them ask were to pass a motion saying that while themselves, not what construction will be we did not express an opinion on the put on it in Western Australia, but tariff as a. whole, we ventured respectfully what construction will be put on it to ask that the dutijes in regard to mining in the wider area of the Commonwealth. material, miing machinery, and mining We want to get-I take it the hon. requisites should be reduced, that would member for Coo Igardie is at one with me Federal Tariff: Fedra[23 Trif:OCToBER, 1901. ffect ou the State. 1788 in this--the very best possible terms we carry me away, I beg the Rouse will can for Western Australia under the pardon me. I beg teHouse to remem- Federal Tariff. Now, does it commend her the allegiance- we still owe, as West itself to the wisdom of hon. members, as Australians, to the greatest Western men of ordinary' common sense, that if AustrLian of us all, who is upholding we transmit a resolution of this descrip- the interests of Western Austr-alia, who tion, practically condemning the rederal is doing more for Western Australia in Government, we are likely to get any the Federa Parliament, I believe, than special consideration from the Barton all the rest of our members put together. Ministry? The Barton Ministry know [Several MEnsns:. Hear, hear.J Sir that th~e members we have sent to the John Forrest is a noble man ; lie is a man Federal Parliament, with one exception, of world-wide reputation; he is the man are free-traders. The Ministry know that under whose administration Western Aus- they cannot be worse off so far as Western tralia has progressed more within the last Australia is concerned. Therefore I say, 10 years than she progressed during all if we put this crowningu slight, injury, the rest of her existence. insult and indignity on Sir John Forrest, MR. DiALIsli: YOU mean, suffered who represents Western Australia in the more. Federal Ministry, wve shall make a bitter MR. NANSON "Suffered more," the enemy of the Ministry. I say we should member for Subiaco remarks. I am not bring the party politics of the Federal ashamed of him. I am ashamed of the Government on the floor of this House; unworthy reflection be has attempted to and although I aquit the member for cast on a gentleman who, if he were on Coolgardie of any suspicion of enmity to the floor of this House, would have known Sir John Forrest-I 'know the hion. how to reply to a retort of that descrip- member's motives to he absolutely and tion. If the amendment which I have sincerely honest-I say we must look at mkoved to the motion for the transmission the resolution not from the point of view of the resolution to the Prime Minister as to how it will be regarded in Perth and fail to meet the sense of the House, I Western Australia, but as to bow it will shall he perfectly- willing to withdraw it, be interpreted in the Federal Parlia- provided some hon. member will substi- ment if transmitted, by that arch-priest tute for it another amendment which, of political maiuv-o, Mr. Reid. Does while not condemning the Federal Tariff any hon. member mean to tell me that as a whole, will place in a reasonable Mr. Reid, if this resolution goes forward light the special needs of this State. I to the Prime Minister, will not make do intend, even if the tactics of obstruc- party capital out of itP tioii be nece~sary, to oppose, and to con- MR. HOPKINS: Certainly; so he tinue to oppose, any sort of motion which, should. if passed by this House, may be used as Mn. NANSON: Will not- Mr. Reid an engine of destruction against the best from the floor of the Feder-al House of friend of this State, Sir John Forrest. Representatives jeer at Sir John Forrest Mx. Ropsiws: You said that before. and say, " See what has happened in your Mx. NANSON: I have said it before, own Parliament! See how the mighty and I say it again; and I will continue to are fallen! See how the Parliament say it. I do not know whether I am in which at one time you led by the nose order in moving the adjournment of this has turned against you!I You can find debate. If any motion at all is before only one or two, or perhaps three memi- the House, I will again move that the bers to defend you." I protest again, debate be adjourned, so that hon. mem- therefore, and 1 will continue to protest bers may have an opportunity of going while I have breath in my body, against home to think over the matter, and tarn the slight, the injury, the indignity, and it over in their minds, in order to see the insult proposed to be dlone to the whether it is not possible-perhaps even leading Western Australian of us all. I the member for Coolgardie may see that find it difficult to restrain my feelings of it is possible-to substitute, I will not indignation. I find it difficult to speak say a less offensive motion, but a motion on a subject like this in the language of on which it will be possible to put a less cahuness and prudence. If nmy feelings offensive construction. 17~84 Federal Taif; [ASSEMBLY.]ASML. -Efectfec onnteSae ae State.

THE SPEAKER:- The hon. member TarE SPEAKERn: The hion. member must would not be in order in moving the not interrupt the mem beir for the Murehi- adjournment of the debate. A motion son in his speech. for adjournment must be made without debate. DEBATE RESUMD. MR. H~AsTTE: Is there any debate, Mr. MR. NANSON: While bowing with SpeakerF all res ct to your ruling, sir, I may Ma. NANSON:- When speaking earlier explain~how it is that the question of in the evening I said it was not may inten- whether this resolution should or should tion to enter into the vast, inexhaustible, not be transmitted to the Prime Minister and profound subject of protection and of the Commonwealth, is intimately f ree-trade. I had come here armed with hound up, bound up in such a way that a number of statistics and particulars, we cannot separate the two subjects, with and a quantity of interesting facts. the vast andl important questiou of pro- tection or free-trade. P012TS OP ORDER. Tas SPEAKER: I do not see how the Tiaz COLOsNL TuEasoExa .n: rise to question of free-trade or protection can a point of order. Tbe subject matter have anything to do with the motion that before the House is the question whether the resolution passed by this House shall we shall or shall not transmit a. certain be transmitted to the Prime Minister of resolution passed by the House to the the Commonwealth. Federal Prime Minister, Mr. Barton. Is Mn. NANSON: A good deal hinges the lion. member in order in intro- on the construction which will be placed ducinag the question of protection or on our action, if the House decide to pas free-trade ? the motion in favour of transmitting the THE SPEAiKER: I do not think the resolution in question to the Prime hon. member is in order. He must Minister of the Commonwealth, Mr. confine himself to the question of whether Barton. In this way:. if we decide to the resolution should be forwarded to thbe transmit this motion to the Prime Min- Prime Minister or not. ister of the Commonwealth, we affirm the MR. H&STnI: Has not the motion for principle of a free-trade tariff, and-- the transmission of the resolution been MR. florPKIsrss No. withdrawn ? Ms. NAN SON: And denounce the THE SPEAKER: If there is one negative prinile of at protective tariff. to the withdrawal of a motion, it cannot Ms.iorIIS: NO, no. be withdrawn. The member for the Ms. NANSON: There can be, no Murchison objected to the withdrawal, question as to the plain meaning of the and the motion is therefore before the resolution. I do not want to weary hon. House. members by reading it over again. Ms. HorxNas: Was the membher for MR. HopKicNs: The resolution is not Coolgardie in order in moving the trans- the question before the House. mission of the resolution without giving Ma. NANSON: If hon. members will notice of motionP study the resolution closely, they will see THE SPEAKER: I think he was. that in transmitting it to the Federal Ma. HoPiKINs: That being so, is the Prime Minister we are transmitting a motion before the House? resolution which deals with the very vital THE SPEAKER: The motion is before question of the tariff, whether it shiall be the House now. a free-trade tariff or a protective tariff Ma. MononiNs: If the feeling of lion. Ms. HopKiNs : NO; not at aUl! muembers is that the motion for the trans- MR, NANSON: I submit that I am mission of the resolution should not be justified in using the forms of the House withdrawn, I am quite ready to fall in in order to impress on hon. members, with their views. Personally7 I am very before it be too l-ate, what may be the desirous that the resolution should be consequence of their action. Hon. mem- transmitted to the Prime Minister, in bers say they approve of the resolution ; order that he may know what the feeling and, no doubt, we all may approve of it; of the House is in regard to this ques- but what I want to drive into the minds tion. of lion, members, or coax into their minds,. Federal Tariff . (23 OCTOBER, 1901.] FedralTarff:Effect (23OC~BERon the 191.] State. 178b if possible, is the construction which will federation without knowing exactly what be pla-ed on the resolution if transmitted they were going to do. as proposed, not in Western Australia- Mu. HOPKINS: Speak for yourself! that does not matter-but in Melbourne, MR. NAINSON:- I am speaking on the in the Federal Parliament; and there- necessity of persuading the member for fore I submit I am perfectly in order Boulder. I am endeavouring to prevent in going into the question of pro- that hion. member from voting on the tection or free-trade, which question, I subject with a mind still unprepaed- think, is indissolubly bound up with the MR. HOPKINS: With an "open mind" resolution. If the resolution be trans- MR. NANSON: I trust the member mnitted to the Federal Prime Minister, it for Boulder bas an open mind. I trust will be regarded as an expression of an open mind is not a monopoly of this opinion on the fiscal question; whereas side of the House. I trust the hion. if I suciceed in carrying my point, that mernber may yet be open td persuasion. this motion shall not be transmitted to It is said that there is always time for the Federal Prime Minister, we admit at contrition, that the sinner's hope is never once that although the House was at an end. prepared to carry the resolution, it was MR. HoPnixs: We have bad your not prepared to proceed with the logical repentance. consequence of its action-that the [MR. NANSON: Now I can see the House cardied a certain resolution, but light of repentance penetrating the mem- was not prepared to transmit it to the ber for Boulder (Mr. Hopkins). I per- Federal Prime Minister. ceive that my words are not altogether SuvxnALi XMBRnns: We are prepared. without effect, but the Colonial Treasurer MR. NANSON: Some members say does not seem altogether convinced yet they are prepared to transmit it. that this is a matter that should be debated. Mn. HOPiKINS: Divide and see! THfE COLONA TREASURER: 1 am11 MR. NANSON:- My task is not to convinced it should not he debated, it divide the House on the question, but to should be passd. attempt to convince lion. members. Ma. NANSON: I can never admit Mu. HEOPKINs: No. that a motion that may do seriousi injury Mt. NANSON: Although the member to this county- for Boulder (Mr. Hopkins) may he of a somewhat stubborn nature, he is not POINT OP ORDER. altogether insensible to the arts of MR. R. HASTIR (Kanowna): I rise argument, he is not alt~gether insensible to a point of order. I wish to ask you, to the arts of persuasion. Mr. Speaker, whether, when the House MR. HOPiKiNS: You have not given us is convinced that an hon. member is any arguments yet. deliberately obstructing the busihess of MR. NANSON: If the hion. member this House, there is anything we can do sees that by transmitting the resolution to save ourselves from such a nuisance. to the Federal Prime Minister, he will be Tarv SPEAKR: I am afraid there is doing a serious wrong to his country, not.. (General laughter). and. possibly a serious wrong to the MR. NANSON: I regrt that I did constituency he represents, he will, I not catch the observations of the hion. believe, even at the eleventh hour recant member for Kanowna (Mr. Hastie). and his opinions. It is my duty to attempt therefore I cannot deal with them. to persuade, or wrestle with him until MR. GEORGE: He is apologiSing; it is the last moment, and not to allow him to all right. do harm unwittingly. We have had a terrible example in the past of people DEflATE RESUMED. voting without giving sufficient considera- 'MR. NANSON: An hion. member tion to the subject. This matter has asks me how many hours I will take. I to-night been laboured again and again. will remind him that this is a vastly Mu. HOPKINS: Quite right! important subject, and I do not think Mu. NANSON: It has been shown I could possibly take too many hours that a number of people voted for in debating a mistke so serious as 1786 Federal Tariff; [ASSEMBLY.] RJtct on the State. this. I may assure the lion. member that very possibly the New South Wales I am perfectly fresh, and that I am, in Parliament all joining together to debate what I believe is a parliamentary term, among themselves, and passing motions going strong. I am only just at the the majority of which will be in favour beginning of my observations, as at matter of and not against protection ? We only of fact. If I am wearying the lion. expose the weakness of our own case member, I believe lie is within his rights when this puny State-puny, that is, in in leaving the House, and if a quorum the number of its population-throws out cannot be formed I shall be brought up the gauntlet to four millions of people on with a short turn. But in a, matter so the eastern side of Australia. I have not stupendous, so interesting, as the member had much time to think of this matter for Mount Margaret (Mr. Taylor) reminds and to prepare my language, and I have me, I do not think this discussion will be to arrange my language as I go along. regarded as an infliction. I can see by A new light breaks upon me. As I said the gravity that has overcome the faces before, this motion may have utterly of hon. members, that I am at last begin- unexpected, utterly unforeseen conse- ning to persuade them that, harmless as quences. You will id that in every this motion may seem, there may lurk in State of Australia this matter will be it a danger which at the present moment brought up and debated, and you will some lion. members do not recognise. I find Western Australia sending its one may assure those hon. members that this resolution for, and every other State a motion is a very serious danger. I can resolution against it. Where shall we assure the lion. member that, although have done anything to-ssist, the mining we have only a limited population here, industry? Where shall we have done and although our House does not, on anything to put our industries on a account of that small population, demand better footing? Where shall we 'have quite the same amount of attention as the done anythinig except to show to the Parliaments of the other States may do, whole of Australia that after all we awe this motion and the motion preceding it an insignificant portion of the peopleP have been watched with a great amount And they will say, " The people in the of interest by the whole of Australia. I West live so far away from the centres of will explain to the hon. gentleman how I population in the East that they have arrive at that conclusion. Just as that. lost their sense of the due proportion of detective, Sherlock Holmes, was able to things, and they forget that they are detect certain phenomena from certain only 180,000 people and we are7 four signs he saw around him, so am I able to millions." I syinpathise with the hon. detect that a. motion of this description member for Coolgardie (Mr. Morgans) is being watched with the utmost atten- and the wish of this House to have the tion and the utmost expectation by the tariff amended-and I defy any member whole of the ot'her States in Australia, to show that. in My remarks on the becauseitestablishes a. precedent. This is a previous stage of this evening's debate I fact which must appeal to those members said anything against amending the tariff who do not care lightly to establish a as it at present stands. But what I did precedent. This is the first time since say was that we should not pass such a the Commonwealth has been established motion; and now I go farther and say that any State Parliament has arrogated that, having passed that motion, we to itself the right to censure the Federal should not forward it to the Prime Prime Minister, either by imputation or Minster. in any other way; and if we pass this THE PREMIER: That is what Mr. motion, do members think the Victorian Morgans says. Parliament will be prepared to allow a MR. NANSON: I understood the slight of this description to be put upon member for Coolgardie (Mr. Morgans) its members in the Federal Government? had changed his mind. Do 'you not think that if we pass a motion MR. MORGANS; I have not changed of this description we will find the say mind. Victorian Parliament, the South Aus- MR. NANSON: I see I am labouring tralian Parliament, the Queensland Parli- under a misconception. I was under the amient, the Tasmanian Parliament, and conception that the member for Cool- Federal Tariff; [23 OCTOBER, 1901.] Effect on the State. 1787 gardie wished to change his resolution on THE SPEAKnit I think a great deal of the Federal Prime Minister, and now I what the hon. member is saying is find I am mistaken.I totally irrelevant to the motion before THE PREMIER: He is willing to with- the House. I Called the hon. member's draw it. attention to that before. MR. NANSON: He is willing to with- draw it. DEBATE RESUMED. THE PREMIER:; I will take care that MR. NANSON: I very much regret it goes. that I have wandered from the subject. MR. NANSON: Then I take it the I submit that while this pernicious habit bon. gentleman (the Premier) is willing exists in this House of interrupting an to flout this House; and if be did, I hon. member when lie is speakng- think the hon. gentleman would commit THE PREMIER: Obstruction! a grossly unconstitutional act. MR. NANSON: It is a very difficult THE PREMIER, I shall send this to matter to get one's thoughts in the the Prime Minister. direction they should run. I hope hon. MR. NMISON, The lion. gentleman members will not interrupt me any may send it; but it will go, not as from farther. I am not anxious to obstruct the Premier of the State, but as from a the House in any way. I want to have private individual. this question argued out in a sober, THE PREMIER: It will go from me, as rational, and cool manner, and if the Premier. Premier will only leave me alone I think MR. NANSON; The hon. gentleman we will manage to get on without very need not trouble himself about sending much difficulty, and without keeping the it, because I suppose it will go on the House till a very late hour. The member wings of the telegraph. for Coolgardie does not wish the motion THE PREMIER: It will go from me, to be submitted to the Prime Minister. as Premier. Surely a somewhat strange proceeding, is MR. NANSON: It may go from the it not? He passes a motion. I want to hon. gentleman as Premier, and it may be (cauitious here, because I do not wish also go forward that the hon. the Premier to impute any motives to the hon. mem- wee unable to get a resolution declaring ber. I have a great respect for him, and that it should be forwarded. I do not want to impute any motives, THE PREMIER: Not at all: this but it does strike me as very peculiar (paper in hand) is my resolution. indeed that he should get a motion MR. NANSON: There are limits even passed by this House in favour of to the power of the hon. gentleman. I amending the tariff, and then, when know he is an autocrat by disposition it comes to the usual coarse, what seems and a democrat by profession, but he must a perfectly ordinary course to hon. learn that there are limits to his power. members who supported the motion- THE PREMIER: Why not define those although I objected to it very Strongly- limits ? when it comes to the usual course, he MR. NANSON: I wish the Premier objects to do it. As I said earlier in would not interrupt me, because it takes the debate, be loads his gun but does not me off the track, and it only prolongs wish to fire it off. The hon. gentleman the proceedings. I have a, great deal to interjects, with that bad habit of his say. (Laughter.) If he will go on which I hope he is beginning to lose, and interrupting me, it simply means that I be tells us, " No; I will go behind this get off my argument and it takes a little House. If the bon. member does not time before I get on again. wish to send this motion, 1, the great I, will see this motion is sent on." It is POINT OF ORDER. my duty to remind the Rouse and the THE PREMIER: I rise to a point of Premier, that in this matter we must order. Is not the hon. member obstruct- take the opinion of the hon. member for ing the business of the House? Coolgardie. As I have already said, the SEVERAL MEMBRnS: No. Premier is an autocrat in disposition and THE PREMIER: I was addressing the a democrat in profession. Chair, and not hon. members. TEE PREMIER: I have his approval. lflS Federal Taniff: [ASSEMBLY.] Effect on the State.

MR. NANSON: We cannot allow the fled in passing a resolution of this sort, bon. gentleman to abuse the forms of and then immediately deciding to run the House in this highly irregular, this away from it? It reminds me somewhat highly unseemly manner, and make a of a cartoon I remember seeing in Punch way of doing these things. Really, I many years ago, of a very noted states- would be the last to accuse the member man, who was shown as having pulled for Coolgardie of making fun of this the knocker of a door, and then as House, of making a fool of it, of not running away as hard as he could, in taking it seriously; but surely it is a case the door should be opened and he rarkable proeedin tt aftergetting should be caught in the act. It seems to uto pass this moton in favour Of me the member for Coolgardie has pulled altering the tariff, he actually gts up the knocker; and feeling afraid that he and tells us he does not wish it to be may be caught in the act, he decides to sent to the Prime Minister. There must withdraw his motion in favour of trans- be some hidden meaning. What deep mittin the resolution to the Federal design is there? Is there some plot Premr. Feeling, at the last moment, between the hon. gentleman-the sole that he has perhaps done a somewhat occupant of the Treasury benches at foolish action, although with the best present (the Premier)-and the member intentions, in bringing forward the for Coolgardie; some sort of telepathic original motion, he takes that last resort, correspondence between them ? a sensible resort, perhaps, in the circumn- Tns PREMIER (leaving the House): stances; but the only resort by which he There is none, now. can get out of a very serious dilemma. MR. NANSON: I see the hon. gentle- There is one more point to which I should man leaving the precincts of this like to direct attention. As I have Chamber, and no doubt I will see the already said, there can be no question member for Coolgardie going out on this whatever, that if we pass this motion in side, and then doubtless we will under- favour of transmitting the resolution to stand why, having brought forward a the Federal Prime Minister, it will be motion and having got it passed in this regarded as at definite and final ex- House, he is unwilling to send it on to pression of opinion from this Rouse. the Federal Premier. But alight breaks If our Premier send it along person- upon me. I cantunderstand it now. At ally, we can afford to disregard it; the last moment conviction begins to because it is well known that although dawn upon the mind of the member for the Premier conducts the business of the Coolgardie, and my words have not been country, he does it only so long as be is altogether in vain: the seed has not allowed to do so, he does it only because fallen altogether upon barren ground. the members of the Opposition are will- That is the idea germinating now. He ing to allow him to do it; and therefore begins to see that though his intentions his sending the resolution would not be may have been of the best, be may regarded as an official act. Bat if this be unwittingly inflicting harm, serious House pass the motion, then the sending damage, upon this great mining industry, of the original resolution to the Federal the interests of which he has so much at Prime Minister will be regarded as an heart. He begins to see that unwittingly official act; and it opens up a very grave he may be inflicting an injury upon the constitutional question, whether if we prosperity of this State, an~d he takes finally commit ourselves, whether if we this strange course, as at first sight it take this irrevocable step, we are not may seem; but which, at any rate, if it interfering with the rights of the Com- does no credit to his bead, at least does monwealth Parliament ; whether the credit to his heart. He takes this course people of Western Australia are not of availing himself of the last chance attempting to usurp the genera rights of that is given him of withdrawing a mioon the sovereign people of Australia as a that may do unspeakable injury to whole. You see, the more one looks into Western Australia. I hope I am not the matter, the more one looks into the misconstruing the motives of the ]member principle at stake, the more illimitable for COolgardie; but I put it as a serious seems to be the field which opens out proposition to the House: are we justi- before us. If we do this subject justice, Federal Tarif% [23 OCTOoER, 1901.] Effect on the State. 1789 if we recognise its great constitutional repugnant to me than to seem to do any- importance, I can see no possible chance thing that may lead to the obstruction of of bringing this debate to an end within the business of this House; but if my con- anything ]ike a reasonable time. duct bears that construction, I would point Mn. JA~COBY: I beg to draw attention out that sometimes the end justifies the to the fact that there is not a quorum means. I know that several hon. mem- present. hers wished to continue this debate at a MR. HOPKINS: After You sent the later stage; they had not their material members out. ready, and the brute force of the majority [Bells rung, and quorum formed.] was used to prevent tbeir speaking later Tan SPEAKER: Before the hon. on;i and although that may not be burk- member (Mr. Nanson) continues, I should ing discussion, although I unreservedly like to read to him the rule in May with withdraw that phrase, I still find myself reference to this matter which is now unable to find another phrase that ade- proceeding:- quately represents whiht was done. But Mr. Speaker or the Chairman, alter having as I respect, and I hope I always called the attention of the Rouse or of the shall respect, the ruling of the Oar, Committee to the conduct of a member who and as you have intimated to me that persists in irrelevant or tedious repetition, I may have been irrelevant either of his own arguments or of the argu- in speaking ments used by other members in debate, may as I have done, under very great diffi- direct him to discontinue his speech. culties-possibly I have been irrelevant- I think the hon. member has been trying I will now resume my seat; only saying, the patience of the House very consider- in conclusion, that any action I may ably by constant repetition and irrelevant have taken has been taken with the observations. I now call the attention of idea of entering a most solemn and the House to the fact; and if he continue emphatic protest against an attempt to do so, I shall act on this order, and that has been made to prevent insist on his discontinuing his speech. hon. members of this House, whose ME. NANSON: In the circumstances, words are usually listened to with the sir, as I speak under very great disadvan- greatest attention, and who wished to tages, and as the forms of the House have have the debate adjourned so that they been used in order to burt discussion-- might speak on a future occasion-I will only say that my protest has been made POINT OF ORDER. in order to give them an opportunity of THE PREMIER: I rise to a point of doin what I contend every member of order. Before the hon. member can say the House has a right to do that, he should submit something in HoN. F. H. PIESSE (Williams): In justification. the circumstances, I feel that I cannot THE SPEAKER:t I think he should. support the motion. I may Say I con- THE PREMIER: It is pratctically a sider that a motion such as this which charge against the Chair. has been put fonvard by the member for THn SPEAKER: I. cannot see that the Ooolgardie, should have received at the forms of the House have been made use hands of this House much more discus- of to burk discussion. sion; and I can assure the House it was the intention of several members to DEBATE RESUMED. farther discuss the question before the MR. NA-NSON: Well, sir, T shall House in regard to this resolution: it withdraw that observation, and apologise was with that object that the member for for it if necessary, and shall merely state Beverley (Mr. Har-per) rose for the that there has been a very evident desire purpose of adjourning the debate; and in on the part of several bon. members to) fact it was decided that we should not speak on the question, whichb they regard attempt to carry* it farther if the hon. as of very great and very momentous member (Mr. Morg-ans) did not express importance ; and that although they his acquiescence in the adjournment this happen on this point to be in a minority, evening. And I understood the adjourn- yet I think the ordinary courtesy of ment was to be moved for the purpose of the House should have been extended considering a farther amendment which to those members. Nothing is more would have been proposed by the member 1790 Federal Tariff: [ASSEMBLJY.] ffedt on the State. for Bleverley, with which, in the main, I the motion, but to the House, to give full understood the member for Coolgardie liberty to discuss any matter which is of was in accord. It was for that reason importance. I admit that the Premier the opposition was shown to the adjourn- no doubt is thirsting for vengeance ment; and therefore I say I did not wish and trying no doubt to ridicule in a to obstruct, or in any way to prevent this humorous and sarcastic way that which motion being put to the House; but I has taken place, and to deal in that manner wished to eater my protest against a with the matter which we should like to matter of such importance being disposed consider seriously. This is a serious of before it had been fully considered. I matter: a motion is passed by the House may say I was in sympathy with the without a division, and conveyed to the member for Coolgardie in regard to his Ministry of the Federal Parliament, and motion, and it was my intention to speak the resolution appears to have been passed to it later; and I may say I had prepared unanimously. 'Ihe motion was not car- notes which I was unable to make use of ried on the voices, for owing to a disturb- to-night, owing to the many matters ance which necarred whej'u it was being which that hon. member had raised; put, no notice was taken of what was and I intended on a later date to being done, or there would have been continue the subject, and to bring farther discussion and the question would before the House some points which I not have reached the stage it has reached consider would have assisted the hon. now, a mnotion having been tabled to con- member, yet at the same time with a vey the resolution to the Prime Minister view of farther modifying the resolution. of the Commonwealth. I oppose the That, is why it was intended that the motion going forward, and object to the motion should be postponed to-night. way the resolution was passed. Not with the intention of causing the THE PREMIER (Hon. G. Leake) : It Government any inconvenience or of is with feelings almost of pain that I causing any inconvenience to the House, approach the farther consideration of the but with the desire of obtaining farther subject which I thought perhaps we had information on the subject and assisting heard the last of this evening. Some the member for Coolgardie in connection members may think I would feel pleasure with the motion which he bad tabled. in seeing the members opposite quarrel- In these circumstances the adjournment ling ainongst, themselves, but really it, that was asked for might readily have pains me. I find the member for the been conceded. I have said before that Murchiison, the member for Coolgardie, when I can assist in having the rules and the leader of the Opposition, and the procedure of the House respected I am member for Beverley all squabbling only too anxious to do so, and in this amongst themselves; and here am I case it was only with that desire that the posing, for the first time during the opposition was shown to the adjourn- session, as a peacemaker. I rise to pour ment and a division called for. If it had oil on the troubled wvaters. Do not say not been for the terms made by the it is boiling oil, because it is not. I am member for Coolgardie, a division would really very sorry to think that these not have been called for on the matter dis- members have misled themselves, and lposed of; but being an important question, that too without the assistance of the conveying the opinions of the House, I Government. The leader of the Opposi- did not like it to go forward that I had tion complains that no opportunity was agreed to the motion without expressing afforded him to discuss the question. Is n ini.~on. That is the reason I opposed it possible to conceive a gentleman with the sending forward of the resolution, his parliamentary experience, backed up and I do oppose it, and my opposition by a man pre-eminently qualified in that was on those grounds. Several members regard. namely the Chairman of Commit- desired to speak, and an opportunity tees (the iuember for Beverley), does not should have been given to those members. know sufficient of the rules of the House It has been the practice always, where to step in and have a debate on the sub- farther discussion is desired, that an ject when there is not only an original adjournment be granted ; it is to the motion but an amendment before the advantage not only of the proposer of House? I=ca quite understand the mem- Federoal Taniff: [23 OCTOBER, 1901.] Ejfect on the State. 1791 her for the Murchison being misled, members of the Federal 'Ministry or to because he is a new member; and I k-now the Federal Parliament that the members the member for Coolgardie is not very of the Opposition have squabbled about much concerned, because be has succeeded so small a matter as to the method of in carrying his motion, and what little transmission of this very important assistance I have been able to give the message which Par-liamnent has carried, I member for COoig-ardie I have given most say unanimously, but which everybody readily. I do hope members on that will admit has been carried without a (Opposition) side of the House will cease division. Will hon. members accept this these squabbles amongst themselves. assurance fronm me? Will they urge on Really I do not like them: they are to be the member for Coolgardie that he should deprecated. If the members opposite withdraw ? Then we shall once and for want to squabble, let them squabble with all be that happy family which we were, Us. or thought we were, some few days ago. OPPOSITION MEMBER: DO not Worry. MR. MORGANS (in reply): I desire THE PREMIER: The hon. member to say, in reference to the remarks of the says " do not worry." I cannot help leader of the Opposition (Hon. P. R. worrying when I find the members of a Piesse), that he has not placed the facts happy family suddenly involved in dis- before the House quite as I understand agreements of this painful character. I them. What occurred was this. The suggest now that the member for Cool. motion for the adjournment of the debate gardie should withdraw the motion which was opposed, and we had a division on seems to have flouted members on the it.. The member- for the Swan (Mr. other side and caused a certain amount Jacoby) approached me afterwards and of trouble. If the members have been asked me, with regard to a second playing with firearms and did not know division, whether in view of the fact that they were loaoded, members must not the member for Beverley (Mr. Harper) blame us. That seems to be the position wished to speak, I would consent to the of members opposite. I will support the adjournment of the debate. Personally, member for Coolgardie. T oirge him in I shall be only too glad to assent to that. all sincerity to withdraw the motion I should have been very pleased to have which seems to give so much trouble. Of this matter discussed as fully as possible. course he Cannot do that except with the However, after investigating the position, consent of his friends on the other side I went over to the other side of the House of the House. When he was anxious to with tbe intention of speaking to the have the matter terminated he was Premier, and asking him whether, in the desirous of withdrawing, and it places event of the debate being adjourned, he him in a rather painful position when his Iwould consent to the motion being placed friends and colleagues object to the with- in a prominent position on the Notice drawal. It does not matter to this side IPaper, so that it might be settled to- what the result is. The member for morrow. Whilst this approach on my the Murchison does not want the motion part to the Premier was on the tauis, the carried, and curiously enough the member member for the Murray proposed the for Coolgardie, his friend, says he does adjournment of the House, and before I not desire to press it: al-e they not at one had come to any decision- on the subject ? Why really squabble SEVERAL MEMBERS: Adjouramentof about a matter of this sort. I give the debate. members this assurance: I will telegraph TH4E PREMIER: You did not ask me. this motion to-morrow morning to the MR. MORGANS! No. I say I was Prime Minister of the Commonwealth, discussing the matter with the Premier, and if necessary to the leader of the when the member for the Murray moved Opposition in the Federal Parliament, the adjournment of the House. saying that Parliament has carried ihe SEVERAL MEMBERS: Of the debate. motion of the member for Coolgardie MR. MORGANS: Yes; of the debate. without a division. What can the Hfouse So before I had an opportunity of exer- desire more than that ? That is a plain cising what I hope I may Consider My statement of fact, and I think that it charms of persuasion on the Premier- would be a pity it should go forth to the and I may say that when I1 approached 1792 FederalI Tartff [ASSEMBLY.][ASML. _Efec ffert 077.nIeSae the State. him on the question he seemed a little might be given to the wishes of Western bit ruffled, and appeared as though he Australia on this great question of the did not intend to receive my request tariff, on which our life's blood, our very for-- existence, depends more or less. It is THiE PREMIER: Pardon me. I say quite a fair thing that this House should you did not question me. This is all have some opportuuikv of expressing an news to me: tIs is what causes me pain. opinion on the very important question Mis. MEORGANS. I do not wish to of the tariff. Our only desire is to let convey for a moment that I did pitt the the Federal Parliament know, to let Mr. matter. to my friend the Premier. I was Barton and his Ministers know, that only feeling my way for the purpose of Western Australia is placed in a position doing so. As a matter of fact, the of danger through the tariff now pro- hon. gentleman saw quite well what 1 posed. The very existence of the State intended. is placed in danger by the promulgation TE FaREiR: Oh, no! of that tariff. I have tried to show to Ma. MORGANS:. I was reaily going the House to-night that if the tariff be to discuss the question with him, to see brought into existence, if it he accepted whether it was possible for us to arrange itnd passed by the Federal Parliament, for the adjournment of the debate and the chief and only industry of this get the matter placed in a forward posi- country which is bringing to it- tion for to-morrow. Just at that moment SEVERAL Mxunsae: No, no. my friend the member for the Murray Ma. MORGANS: If not the only proposed the adjournment of the debate. industry, at any rate it is the principal Ma. GERORGE:- And got "1sat on." industry, which is bringing revenue, Ma. MORGANS: I left the House: I prosperity, and success to the State-this did not vote for or against the motion for great enterprise is going to suffer severely adjournment, because my intention was by the enactment of the proposed tariff. to pour oil on troubled waters and try to That is the objet of the House. Now, arrange matters in a way satisfactory to my friend the member for the Murchison both sides%. 1 strongly- object to the says, what? That we have raised in the remark of my friend the member for the resolution the question of protection or Murchison (Mr. Nanson) as to an attempt free-trade. I deny, it. [SEvARAL MEM- on the part of anybody in this House to BERS: Hear, hear.] There is nothing in turk debate. the resolution which conveys anything in Ma. NAFJSoN: I did not say you the nature of a pronouncemenit on the attempted to turk debate. question of protection or free-trade. MR. MORGANS: I am glad to know Ma. NA-N soN: That i s the conustruction that I am acquitted; but I think it which will be placed on it. wrong that an accusation should be made Ma. MORGANS: I do not agree with against any member of intending to bark my friend at all. I do not see how such debate on any question. This being a a, construction can be placed on the reso- most important question, my desire was lution. to get it settled, and the result brought MRs. NAN SON: That is the construction before the Federal Parliament at the the Federal Parliament will put on it. earliest possible moment. The ordinary MR. MORGAI9S: Oh, no; I do not result of an adjournment in a. matter think so. of this kind is to put off the final MRs. NANsON: Decidedly. decision probably for a month or five Ma. MORGANS: There is no reason weeks. It is only necessary to look for thinking so. The resolution simply at the Notice Paper before the House at says8: the present time, to see that notices of That this House views with much anxiety motion brought forward weeks ago are the Federal Tariff which has been promulgated, still on the paper without any decision in niew of the serious consequences that must having been arrived at. With regard to result to the trade and commerce of this State, this debate, it was a matter of import- as well us to the mining industry, which is one of the principal elements of prosperity; ance to get the result of the division and this House respectf ully enters its protest before the Federal Parliament as soon as against the imposition of the proposed tariff possible, in order that some consideration in its present form. Federal Pariff: [23 OCTOBER, 1901.] FedealgEfectarz: [3onOconn. the101. State. 1798

I maintain that the resolution conveys no tion from the agricultural standpoint, vote of censure on the Federal Govern- and I also desire to hear the views of the ment or Parliament in any way. It is leader of the Opposition fromn the agri- simply drawing a red-herring across the cultural point of view. Therefore, I can trail of this discussion for my friend the assure those hon. gentlemen that I had member for the Murchison to say that no desire whatever to burk discussion in there is any intention to pass a vote of this matter. censure on the Federal Parliament or MR. GEORGE:; We acquit you of that. Government in any way by that resolu- MR. HopKINs: It is the other fellow. tion. I will go farther and say that when MR. MORGANS: Those hon. members the resolution is received by the Federal say they do not accuse me of wishing to Government, and considered by them, and burk discussion on this subject. Then I when it is brought before the Federal have nothing more to say on that. But Parliament, it will simply be regarded as I would like to say this : I have seen no a protest from Western Australia against tendency on the part of the Premier to the imposition of the Federal Tariff, on the do so either. I do not think the steps ground that the tariff will seriously in- they have taken have tended to show that jure the great mining industry of *this was their desire. The desire has been to State. That is the only view which will look upon the motion as one of great be taken of the resolution. If I thought importance to this State. That has been for one moment that the resolution con- the point, and the desire of the House veyed in any sense whatever a reflection has been that this motion should be on the Federal Parliament or the Federal carried or rejected, and that., if carried, Government, I would be the last man in it should be brought under the notice of the House to attempt to carry it. As I the Federal Government at the earliest said before, I look on the Federal Parlia- possible moment. If this motion, having ment as supreme in Australia; and I do been carried in this House, be not sent to not for one moment wish to convey any the Federal Parliament at an early date, censure on the Federal Government or we might just as well not have discussed the Federal Parliament. We know per- the question. It would be altogether too fectly well, so far as regards tbe mhem- late, and the only object I have bad in view her for the Murchison, that the stone- has not been, as my friend has said in this wallingandburkingwhich heclidsocleverly House, to in any way cast a vote of cen- to-ight-I must compliment him on his sure on the Federal Government, but tactics-are due to the fact that he is a to lead them in the direction of saturated and crusted protectionist, and is doingsimply justice to Western Australia. That absolutely in terror lest any resolution is all. We wish to elevate their views going from this House to the Federal with regard to this tariff, which is going Parliament might be likely in any measure to inflict the greatest injury upon the to reduce the taxes which are plaoced on greatest industry of this State; and I say the people of this State. I am sure my as far as our position in this House is friend will agree with me when I say concerned, if we believe that an injustice that whatoever his principles may be with is to be done to the Slate by the imposition regard to protection or free-trade, whether Of the Federal Tariff, if we believe that a he be a free-trader or a protectionist, his great and practically tbe only industry of first desire, his first object must he the this State is going to receive a death- good of Western Australia, and not the blow by the imposition of the Federal principlesof eitbierfree-trade or protection. duties, it is the du ty of the House, and of I am sure he will agree with me in this. every member of the House, to carry Now, as regards the transmission of the this motion, and to do everything they resolution, I desire to say to my hon. can to bring the importance of this ques- f riend, the leader of the Opposition, that, tion before the Federal Government so far as I am concerned, I shall be only without any intention whatever of casting too glad to have farther discussion on the a vote of censure upon them, but at the question. I have no desire to stop dis- same time to let the Federal Parliament cussion; and I told the member for know that if the imposition of these Beverley (Mr. Harper) that I was most duties is going to ruin the only industry, anxious to hear his views on the ques- or at least the main industry, of this 1794 Federal Tarij. ! ASSEMBLY.]. Etcl OIL the State.

State, they should hesitate, they should took, that they found the question incon- pause, before they deal a death-blow to venient and did not wish to discuss it. the mining industry of Western Aus- MR. HOPKINS: Question! tralia. (Applause.) Mu. W. J. GEORGE: I wish to make MR. 0. HARPER (in explanation): a personal explanation. It was simply As my name has been mentioned- knowing the facts stated by the member POINT OF ORDER. for Beverley that caused me to occupy the time of the House, according to our MR. HOPKINS: Mr. Speaker, on a Standing Orders. That is why I made point of order. We had your decision, the speech I did this evening. not long since during this session, that MR. MONGER (York): when a member has moved a motion, and Ain Tin order other members have discussed it, and the in moving a farther amendmentld mover of the motion has subsequently THE PREMIER: No. replied, it is not competent for any Ma. MONGER: I am asking the member to address the House. Speaker; Ilam not asking the Premier. Moanes: There is an amendment. THE SPEAKER: I think the hon. mem- MR. HOPKINS: A proposition was can make an amendment. moved, I understand, by the member for MR.MONGER: I beg-to move, as an Coolgardie; it was laid before the House, amendment: and was replied to by the member for IThat the transmission of the motion to the Ooolgardie. Federal Prime Minister be postponed, pending Mu. GEORGE: This is another matter. farther consideration. MR. F. CONNOR: There was an amend- We have had a very lengthy discussion ment by the member for the Mar- on what appears a very pressing motion chison. as regards Western Ansoralia. We have THE SPEAKER: There is no amend- heard it debated in most eloquent terms ment before the House. There was a by the member for Coolgardie (Mr. subsequent motion made by the member IMorgans) and the member for the Mur- for Coolgardie. chison (Mr. Nanson). We have heard MR. HARPER: The member for the numerous arguments brought forward Boulder is rather hasty. I rose to say I from both sides. We have beard the wished to make a personal explanation. learned explanation given by the Premier. MR. HoPxiNs: Under those circum- We have had more figures introduced stances, probably I should apologise for into this question than have been intro- having risen; but if the member for duced into any Budget Speech during the Beverley (Mr. Harper) had taken the last 11 years-that is since the advent precaution to preface his remarks with of respon'sible government-and I say those words, I should have known what With all respect that it was absolutely to do. He is an old enough Parlia- unfair on the part of the Premier not to mnentarian to know better. agree to the adjournment of the debate in Iorder that hon. members might have DEBATE RESUMED. some slight chance of grasping those big MR. HARPER: The hon. member is and lengthy figures, which were so ably usually a little hasty. I was using those introduced by the member for Coolgardie. words when he interrupted me. I wish No doubt they are all the outcome of to make a personal explanation in regard Government returns, etc., but a member to this. I desired to move an amend- hearing a lengthy and able address like ment on the question before the House, that given by the member for Coolgardie and I mentioned this to the mover of the can have no possible chance of replying motion, who agreed to it. He said he unless at least some few hours' oppor- would be quite agreeable to my moving tunity be given for the purpose. I know the adjournment, and I rose and moved well that the member for Coolgardie tbe adjournment accordingly. I had not had studied this question before he prepared the amendment, and therefore I attempted to give to this House the rose to move the adjournment of the figures which he gave us. And how House. And it appeared to me, from the could the Premier, who opposed the action the Premier and his supporters motion for adjournment, expect a poor Federal Taif: [23 OCTOBER, 1901.] EFleet on the State. 1795 unfortunate like me to grasp those MR. GEORGE: It is the transmission, intricate figures in so short a timeP sir. We wish to farther consider the THs PEzmiER: We never gave you transmission. The new cable is not yet credit for it. finished. MR. MONGER: If the Premier wants THE SPEAKER: If the hon. member me to go through those figures which the means "1pending farther consideration of member for Coolgardie gave this evening, the resolution," that would be entirely I will do so without many notes before out of order. me. If you want me to use statistics- MR. MONGER (receiving a suggestion TaE PREmiEn: I should be infinitely from a member): I have it now: "~That better pleased if the hon. member would the motion be amended by substituting sit down. the word 'Parliament' for the words MR. MONGER: No; I will not sit 'Prime Minister."' down. THE SPEAKER: The motion now before POINT OF ORDER. the House is: " That this resolution be Ma. WILSON: Can an hon. member transmitted by Mr. Speaker to the Prime move an amendment which affirms that Minister of the Commonwealth." What a resolution which has Already been is the amendment the hon. member pro- carried by this House Shall receive farther poses to move to that? consideration ? MR. MONGER:. To substitute " Parlia- THE SPEAKER: I did not perceive that ment " for " Prime Minister." those were the terms of the amendment. THE SPEAKER: The hon. member can MR. WILSON: They were the terms. speak to that. Mt. F. COiNOR: It was, whether the MR. WILSON: Can the hon. member resolution should or should not be trans- maintain the floor of the House while he mitted. moves half-a-dozen different amendments? MR. WILSON: The terms were that the That was not the amendment he pro- consideration of the transmission of the posed a short time since. resolution be delayed until the motion THE SPEAKER: Well, it certainly was has been farther considered. not. THE SPEAKER: Of course, that is Ma. WILSON: Then I think he ought entirely out of order. But I did not to sit down. understand that to be the amendment. I thought it aimed at postponing the DEBATE RESIUMED. sending of this Message. MRt. MONGER: It is seldom I differ MR. WILSON: It was that it be farther from the views expressed by the member considered. for Coolgardie, a gentleman whom I have THE SPEAIKER: That certainly would had the honour to sit beside in this be out of order. House. MR. HOPKINS: That being so, I will Mu. TAYLOR: Then why do you differ move that the question be now put. from him now ? THE SPEAKER: Will the hon. member MR. MONGER: But when a reference (Mr. Monger) read his amendment againP is made to the gold-mining industry as MR. MONGER: With every apology being the only industry in Western A us- to you, sir, and to the members of the tralia, and when he refers to it as he has Ministry, I shall not move any amend- done this' evening, I regret I did not ment to my own proposal. There seems listen to the whole of his speech, but I to be some sort of concensus of opinion believe be told to this House and told the on the opposite side as to what I intended whole of the gold-mining people of the to convey. world, that there exist in Western Aus- MR. TAYLOR: You are confused. tralia only five per cent. of payable MR. MONGER: No; I am not con- mines - fused; I am in a very happy humour 'THE SPEAKER: I do not think that to-night. What I intended to conve ,y has Anything to do with the question was, that the transmission of the motion before the House. to the Federal Prime Minister be post- MR. MONGER: Well, sir, I 4ha.U poned, pending farther consideration. proceed. 1796 Federal Tadif. [ASSEMBLY.1 B.C. Church Landp Bill.

THE SPEAKER: I shall use my utmost Amendment put, and a division called powers to put down anything in the shape for by MR. GEORGE. of obstruction. [MEMBERS: Hear, bear.] SEVERAL MEMBERS: No, no. Mn. MONGER: With every apology MR. GEORGE : I withdraw my call to you, sir, I have no desire to cause any for a division. obstruction. Amendment put, and negatived on the MR. HisBrIE: Thenwhy doyou causeit? voices. MR. MONGER: I do not know Question (Message to be forwarded) whether I shall be out of order in say- put, and a division taken. ing that I congratulate the member for [A Member entered through the Bar, the Murchison (Mr. Nanlson) on his and passed to the Ministerial side, after very able speech this evening, and I con- direction had been given to " lock the gratulate him more particularly on the doors."] kindly remarks and fair references which ME. F. COiNOR: I challenge the vote he made to the right hon. gentleman who of the hon. member, Mr. Johnson. occupied the seat now held by our present THE SPEAKER: Did the hon. member Premier. cross over ? MR. WILSON: What has that to do OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Yes. with the motion ? MR. WILSON: The hon. member did MR. MONGER: It has a lot to do not cross over: he camne in through the with West Australia. There is one man Bar. and there are 10 others looking after the MR. HOPKINS: On a point of order- destinies of Western Australia in the (General laughter). The " empty laugh Federal Parliament. That one man is that speaks the vacant mind." the gentleman who for 10 years ruled HoN. F. H. PIEssE: The hon. member the destinies of Western Australia, and (Mr. Johnson) was in the Library, and ruled tbem in a manner in which no other Came in Under the Bar. Premier who follows in the footsteps of THE: SPEAKER: Did the hon. member my friend opposite is ever likely to rule come in after the Bar was closed. them. How. F. H. Passx: Yes. THE SPEAKE: I must insist on the THE SPEAKER: Then the hon. member hon. member confining his remarks to the cannot vote. amendment he proposes, which is that the Mn. JOHNSON retired. word "Parliament" Shall be substituted Division resulted as follows: for the words " Prime Minister." Ayes ...... 16 MR. MONGER: I beg to move the Noes ..14 amendment. .. 7 .. Mn. GEORGE seconded. Majority for.. Mn. HASTIE: I move that the House AYES. NOES. do now divide. I believe I am in order Mr. Dagliab Mr. Buteber, in so doing. Mr. Gregory Mr. corpor Mr. Unstie Mr. Ewing Tan SPEAKER: The lion. member can Wr. Hopkins Mr. George do that, but the motion should he that Mr. Inlingwortb Mr. H.Yper Mr. Xim~ill Mr. Haywvard the question be now put. Mr. Leak. Mr. Jacoby Dr. McWilliams Mr. Monger Mn. GEORGE: Having seconded it, I Mr. Mo,,g. Mr. tVanson claim the right to Speak. 1%Ir.ots Mr. rines Mr. Raid Mr. hawin THE SPEAKER: It must be put without R,! Reside Mr. Swil debate. Mr. 'Paylor mr. Stone Mr. Wilson Mr. Yelverton (Teller). MR. GEORGE : But I rose to speak Mr. Walace (Teller). to the amendment. Question thus passed. THE SPEAKER: I do not think the hon. member did rise to speak. He seconded the amendment, as is very often ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH LANDS done in the House, by merely bowing his AMENDMENT BILL (PnhrvAm). head. Received from the Legislative Council. MR. GEORGE: Well, sir, I how to THE SPEAKER: I have frequently called your decision ; but I assert, as a fact, attention to the fact that members bring- that I rose to speak. ing forward Bills in another place should Perth Soiuitary Site. [24 OCTOBER, 1901.] Paperspresented. 1797 arrange with a member here to conduct matter of pressing necessity, not for only the Bill through this House. our city, but for the adjoining suburb HoN. F. H. PIESSE (after a pause): of Leederville, which borders on that I move that thje Bill be now read a first particular area. That is all I wish to time. say on the subject. I hope the motion Question put and passed. will be carried, and that members will be Bill read a first time. appointed on the committee who know something about this subject. MOTION-SANITARY SITE AT NORTH MR. WILSON (Perth): I beg to second PERTH, TO INQUIRE. the motion. DRa. McWILLIAMS (North Perth): THn PREMIER (Hon. G. Leake): I As this motion will not detain hon. mem- desire to support the motion brought bers long, 1 beg to move:- forward by the hon. member, and I thank him for doing so. It will be very much That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the question of the removal of the in the interests of Perth. City Sanitary Dep6t from its present position, Question put and passed. and to recommend a suitable site for such Ballot taken and committee appointed, purpose. comprising Mr. Daglish, Dr. Hicks, Dr. This dep6t has been used for something O'Connor, Mr. Wilson, w~ith Dr. McWil- over ten years, and the whole of the night- liams as mover; to report on the 6th soil of the city of Perth has been placed November. there, also a considerable amount of refuse, as well as numbers of dead animals of all ADJOURNMENT. descriptions picked up from the streets The House adjourned at 11'86 o'clock, of Perth. This site is of considerable until the next day. elevation, standing on one of the highest parts of the city of Perth, on the Wanneroo Road, and adjoining a large lake. The drainage from this s ite has percolated the soil in various directions and gone into the lake. This site has been responsible for a great deal of the disease in that locality. During the time I have been resident in this State, some 10 or 11 years, I have noticed the prevalence of disease in that particular quarter of the city. There have been numerous petitions pre- sented in regard to the site, and promises lLrgislatibe gztiebt1p, have been given that something would be done. It was simply a temporary site set Thursday, 24th October, 1901. apart for depositing the nightsoil. The Papers presented - Question: Agricultural Show. people in the district are up in arms Attendanae-Crioninal Code Bill, third reading- Supply Bill, £500,000, second reading, in Committee, against this site, and have been for some reported-Annua Estmates (debate), fourth day; considerable time, as it has prevented Votes passed, Burt to Attorney Genersi, progress- population in that direction. The trend Adjourrnent. of the population of the city is in a northerly and westerly direction, and the TBE SPEAKER took the Chair at laud is locked up there for the time 4830 o'clock, p.m. being on account of this sanitary site for the city. If a select committee wero PRAYERS. apited, something could be done Some better scheme might be brought PAPERS PRESENTED. forward for the disposal of the soil. By the MiNISTER, FOR WORKS: Cor- Although this site might have been suit- respondence as to Coolgardie Water able nine or ten years ago, it is not so Scheme. now, being in the centre of a thickly - By the COLONIAL SECRETARY: Papers, populated district. I need not dwell on Dismissal of warder at Fremantle Prison. the matter farther, but I feel it is a Ordered to lie on the table.