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Oral History Interview with Daniel Kemmis, September 8, 1986

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Oral History Interview with Daniel Kemmis, September 8, 1986 Archives and Special Collections Mansfield Library, University of Montana Missoula MT 59812-9936 Email: [email protected] Telephone: (406) 243-2053 This transcript represents the nearly verbatim record of an unrehearsed interview. Please bear in mind that you are reading the spoken word rather than the written word. Oral History Number: 036-014 Interviewee: Daniel Kemmis Interviewer: Claire Rhein Date of Interview: September 8,1986 Project: Daniel Kemmis Interviews Oral History Collection Claire Rhein: This is Claire Rhein talking to Dan Kemmis for kind of our yearly chat it seems. The date is the 8th of September and the year 1986, and I don't really understand why I see you just once a year, Dan. Daniel Kemmis: Well, I don't know either. Maybe it's because life is moving slowly these days. That's about as frequently as there is very much to report. But I'm glad we do it that often, anyw ay. CR: I would think it's because life has been moving rather rapidly and maybe it's just kind of getting out of hand, for me, and I don't move as quickly as I used to. (Laughs.) I hardly think that your life could be slow. DK: It's lot slower than it used to be though. I spend a lot more time at home than it feels like I ever have, and well, just about all the way around I feel it has slowed down and that's by design. I've really felt the need to spend more time with the family and to try to do fewer things and try to learn how to do a few of them better. So, you know, I'm not saying that I won't turn around and sometime get very busy again, and certainly it is the case that I have my hands more than full. I've got plenty to do and never quite get it done at the end of the day or the end of the week or whatever. But the pace is more manageable than it was for a long time. CR: I think you have earned that, for a while. Does this give you a little thinking tim e—a little more thinking time? DK: Well, part of what I have enjoyed about the last several months is that the Northern Lights Institute has really afforded me thinking time. What I've been doing since March of this year is splitting my time half and half between theory and practice. I've been continuing to do the community organizing and community development that I talked about the last time. Since March, with Northern Lights, I've also been reading and writing about the theory that lies behind what I've been doing. So yes, in that way too my life feels much more leisurely in that I'm not always doing, but half of the time I'm supposed to be thinking and writing about what I'm doing. CR: That sounds as though it would be comfortable for you. DK: It's great, just great. I don't expect to maintain that forever, but I think I've become more and more acutely aware of the way that I find myself balanced between theory and action, 1 Daniel Kemmis Interview, OH 036-014, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. between thought and action. But I have to have both of them and when I'm in an action field I think that most of the people that I'm working with think that I'm usually theory prone and yet among theoreticians I think it's a puzzle on why I insist on being so much involved in practice. But for me, at least, it's the right balance. It's why I never conceive of myself being an academician. I like to teach and I like to write and I like to do research, but I think I would feel claustrophobic very quickly if I weren't out really engaged in action at the same time. CR: Sometime though, it had to be three, four, maybe five years ago, we talked about your competitiveness and that everything you were doing at that time dealt with competition, competition against another lawyer, competition politically. Are you competing now or have you taken a breather from that too? DK: Well, I sure don't feel like I'm competing. Yes, I suppose the one area in which I find myself competing is competing for funding with other people who need funding and there is a certain amount of that that you have to do. But I've turned my attention so much to the idea of cooperation and that's at the kernel of what I'm trying to understand and work with. So I suppose that it would be unfortunate if I were doing that in a very competitive way. CR: Do you miss it? DK: No. CR: But you enjoyed it then. DK: Oh, yeah, I think at least in the political realm that I enjoyed the competition. I don't remember enjoying it too much in the legal field. CR: You didn't? (pause) I'll have to go back and look at my notes. DK: You probably remember it better than I do. CR: I remember thinking it was so interesting; it seemed in a way so foreign to Dan Kemmis that I had known up to that point. Everything you were doing was so strongly competitive then, and you seemed to deal with it very calmly but thriving on it. Did the nerves show some other way? DK: I think particularly, well, in both fields I think I came to the place where I was just very restless and unsatisfied with the way that in a competitive situation you kind of have to pretend to be more right than you ever are. You really do, in an adversarial system, whether it's a politically adversarial, or a legally adversarial system, you have to pretend to the whole truth when you know that you don't have the whole truth. That really got to be a burden to me. More and more politically it became clear to me that my opponents had a good share of the truth and yet we were never able to acknowledge each other's truths. You just can't do it. Or at least I didn't know very well how to do it politically and I don't know anybody who did. 2 Daniel Kemmis Interview, OH 036-014, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. CR: You're such a reasonable person. Is that where this became a problem? That you couldn't just be right, you had to be reasonable. DK: That's probably a good way to put it. CR: How does this work with parenting, incidentally? DK: Oh, well, now that's a good question. No, I have no trouble being totally right as a parent (laughs) CR: Oh, I am relieved. It is kind of comfortable today to have a parent who can say, no, I can be totally right. DK: Well, actually I'm fairly facetious about it and I try to maintain an open mind there, too, to recognize that I'm not all that right but still I suppose I'm firmer and stricter and more certain in the family than I am in many other situations. CR: Incidentally, how old are your children now? DK: How old are they? CR: Yes. Is th a t a fair question? DK: Yes, that's fine. Dava is ready to turn 16; she's a sophomore. John is in 8th grade and he is 13. Abraham is six and just starting first grade, and Sam is 2. CK: Abraham is 6 already, and you have a daughter who is 16! DK: Right. CR: She goes to school w here? DK: Hellgate High School. CR: Does she? I don't think I've seen Sam. Abraham is 6. He was a very bright, it seemed to me, 2 >2 or 3-year-old, which is probably what he was when I saw him last. Has he continued to develop as astoundingly as he seemed to then? DK: Oh, I guess that I don't consider him to be extraordinary except in the way that parents think their kids are. He's extremely inquisitive about some areas that surprise me. He loves science and nature very much and I think he is gaining a pretty good understanding of the world. I think he'll probably end up being fairly scholarly. 3 Daniel Kemmis Interview, OH 036-014, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. CR: Do you get a chance to father more now with the younger children now than you did with the older ones? DK: I thin k so, yes. CR: That's kind of interesting because I think, let's see you're 41? DK: Just about. CR: I don't know why I'm stunned except it seems that when you were 39 you were on everybody's list of doing remarkable things and then you kind of dropped out of sight. DK: Right. CR: You were on the Esquire list. You were on the state list—the University list. Who else besides me is coming around and saying, "Where are you now, Dan?" DK: It's definitely a major factor that not only do a lot of people say it, but I'm sure there are many others who don't say it just out of politeness.
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