Tuesday Volume 492 12 May 2009 No. 74

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 12 May 2009

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that the “making it better” reconfiguration of children House of Commons and maternity services across Greater Manchester will see four new state-of-the-art hospitals open this summer Tuesday 12 May 2009 in central Manchester, at a cost of £500 million. There will also be expanded facilities in north Manchester, Bolton, Oldham and south Manchester. Services will be The House met at half-past Two o’clock transferred in stages to ensure a smooth and efficient transition for patients and staff. PRAYERS Paul Rowen: I am sure that the Minister is aware that “making it better” is now over budget—the plan was for £60 million, but the figure is now £100 million—and [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] over schedule. What assurance can he give us that it is still fit for the purpose? Oral Answers to Questions Phil Hope: The hon. Gentleman may not know, but over the next three years the NHS in Greater Manchester plans to invest more than £100 million in new buildings to improve facilities for women, children and babies, HEALTH including new maternity units at North Manchester Mental Health Services (Sutton) general, Royal Bolton, Royal Oldham, St. Mary’s and Wythenshawe hospitals. In-patient children’s and maternity 1. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): services will be provided in eight new centres of excellence How much funding is planned for mental health services across Greater Manchester and the number of neonatal in the London borough of Sutton in 2010-11; and if he units will increase from two to three. The review was will make a statement. [274098] driven by clinicians, in particular the desire of doctors, nurses and midwives to improve safety. I commend The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil them for the work they are doing. Hope): Mental health services receive funding from Graham Stringer (Manchester, Blackley) (Lab): The primary care trusts according to the priorities and consultation on the reconfiguration of children’s services needs of the local population. Sutton and Merton PCT and the associated discussions has lasted for more than and the Government organisation Working for Wellness a quarter of a century. Obviously not everyone is satisfied will invest £2.4 million over three years in improving with the outcome, but now that decisions have been access to psychological therapies. In 2010-11 Sutton made, it is important that the schedules set are kept to. and Merton PCT expects to spend £53.6 million on Will my hon. Friend assure me that that will happen mental health services, which represents 9.1 per cent. of and that the decisions made will not be changed? its allocated budget. Phil Hope: The local NHS bodies in Greater Manchester Tom Brake: The Minister may be aware of debates in are responsible for implementing the reconfiguration. It the House on the future of Henderson hospital and that has taken some time, but the results are now there for all a consultation entitled “Shaping the future: Supporting to see in both the hospitals that are opening now and people with complex personality disorder” is under way. the plans for the future. These are exciting times for the Can he reassure me that the model of a therapeutic Greater Manchester NHS, and all MPs on both sides of community with a residential component will be given the House representing constituencies in the area will reasonable consideration in plans for dealing with see their constituents benefit from the changes. I understand personality disorder, and will he receive from those my hon. Friend’s desire to ensure that the changes are dealing with Henderson hospital an update on the delivered on budget and on time. I shall make sure that future of that service? the local NHS bodies in Greater Manchester are aware of the strength of his feelings on the matter. Phil Hope: As the hon. Gentleman knows, Henderson hospital is temporarily closed because of falling demand Mr. Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): and lack of clinical viability, but, as he says, that is The Minister may recall that when the proposals to shut subject to a consultation due to end on 27 July, to which obstetric units were made in January 2006, the consultation organisations and individuals can of course make document said: representations. The matter is obviously one for local “The birth rate nationally is falling”. decision making, but he has today drawn the House’s That was not true when it was written, and since then, attention to the services that he wants to be provided in in the space of two years, the number of births in future and I shall ensure that his representations are fed Greater Manchester has increased by 7 per cent. When into that local consultation. facts change, so can conclusions. Will Ministers therefore reconsider the plans to remove obstetric services from Maternity/Paediatric Services (Greater Manchester) Fairfield hospital in Bury and the Rochdale infirmary, the effect of which will be that, each year, well over 2. Paul Rowen (Rochdale) (LD): What recent progress 5,000 mothers living north of the M62 will be without has been made on the proposals to reconfigure maternity local access to full obstetric care? and paediatric services in Greater Manchester. [274099] Phil Hope: I always enjoy it when Opposition Members The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil question the investment and reform being made under a Hope): Service reconfiguration is a matter for the local Labour Government. I remember that during the 18 years NHS. The North West strategic health authority reports of Conservative rule, hospital services in Greater 665 Oral Answers12 MAY 2009 Oral Answers 666

Manchester were pretty much abandoned. A great deal and bring outsourced out-of-hours provision back in-house? of thought and planning went into deciding the size of Failing that, should not the performance of organisations the new maternity units. Account has been taken of the be tracked much more closely by the Department of number of births, ongoing changes to maternity practice Health, so that our constituents are not left to the and projected birth rates. Taking all factors into account, mercies of cowboy clinicians? all the new maternity units will have the flexibility for additional capacity, should it be needed. That will allow Mr. Bradshaw: Decisions such as that taken by my the NHS in Greater Manchester to give women choice hon. Friend’s PCT are for local primary care trusts. I over where they wish to have their babies, which they have to challenge him on his interpretation of the would not have had under the Conservative party. National Audit Office findings and the Healthcare Commission’s findings. The NAO report did not find Out-of-Hours Primary Care any evidence of risk to patient safety in out-of-hours services, and it showed that eight out of 10 patients were satisfied. As I have said, the Healthcare Commission 3. Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): What assessment he report found significant improvements in performance has made of the standard of out-of-hours primary care since 2005. Neither of the reports found that there was in (a) Solihull constituency and (b) England; and if he variable performance between private and non-private will make a statement. [274100] providers. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Ben Dr. Richard Taylor (Wyre Forest) (Ind): The vetting Bradshaw): The independent regulator, the Healthcare procedures referred to by the Minister must be hopelessly Commission, recently reviewed urgent and emergency inadequate to allow a cosmetic surgeon from Europe care in England. Solihull was given a rating of three—five who did not even know the correct dose of diamorphine being the highest and one the lowest—with out-of-hours to work in this country. He has admitted killing the services contributing to 25 per cent. of that score. The patient with a dose 10 times too great. Whatever vetting review found that, nationally, out-of-hours services had procedures we have are inadequate, and I ask the Minister improved significantly since 2005. Where the local NHS to take steps to improve them, particularly in relation to has concerns about the performance of its out-of-hours doctors coming from the European Community. providers, it must take urgent and robust action to address them. Mr. Bradshaw: As a doctor himself, the hon. Gentleman will know that this country has among the highest levels Lorely Burt: Following the death of Mr. David Gray of vetting of professionals of any country in the world. at the hands of Dr. Daniel Ubani, is it not the case that Employers have a legal duty to ensure that all doctors the Minister cannot give me an assurance for my whom they appoint are fit to practice, and all doctors, constituents in Solihull, or indeed for constituents anywhere including locums, must be on an official performers list, else, because there is no mechanism for assuring the and must be registered with the independent regulatory quality and consistency of out-of-hours service? Do not body, the General Medical Council. He is right: we are patients need some guarantee on what basic level of talking about an absolutely terrible case, for which the assistance they are likely to receive? doctor has been tried in his absence. As a result, as I informed the House, the SHA, with local primary care Mr. Bradshaw: The hon. Lady is wrong; the quality of trusts, is reviewing the contract given to the company out-of-hours services is monitored and assured a number concerned. There are clear legal obligations on PCTs of ways: first, primary care trusts have clear legal and strategic health authorities to ensure that their responsibilities to provide safe, high-quality out-of-hours out-of-hours services are safe. Something went terribly services; and, secondly, strategic health authorities act wrong in the case that we are discussing, and he is right as performance managers. The regulators, as she will be that it is important that both the local and national aware, are now investigating the provider that ran the NHS learns the lessons as a result of it. services that led to the tragic death of David Gray. I Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): would like to update the House. East of England strategic But is it not elementary that the best out-of-hours health authority informed me this morning that it had services are provided by doctors who know their patients discovered new issues of concern about Take Care and their records? Should we not have a concerted Now—the provider of the services in the case in question— campaign to try to ensure that, wherever practicable, and its performance that predate the Dr. Ubani case. out-of-hours services are conducted by family practitioners The SHA is now reviewing, with the PCTs concerned, who normally look after those patients? its previous decision to continue to use TCN services, pending the outcome of the Care Quality Commission Mr. Bradshaw: The hon. Gentleman makes a very investigation. good point. The vast majority of out-of-hours services up and down the country are still provided by local David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): GPs, whether working in co-operatives or social enterprises, Both the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts or for private organisations that are contracted or Committee have, for some time, pointed to significant commissioned by the primary care trust. The difference flaws in the private provision of out-of-hours general between the system now and the previous system is that practitioner care. As the hon. Member for Solihull they are not compelled to do so. The problem with the (Lorely Burt) said, there have been fatal shortcomings previous system was that GPs often felt overtired: mistakes in outsourcing an essential aspect of primary care. were made and the service was patchy and dangerous in Does the Minister agree that more and more PCTs many places. The Conservative idea of going back to across the country should follow the example of the bad old days of forcing all GPs to provide out-of- Leicestershire County and Rutland primary care trust, hours-services would be an absolute disaster. 667 Oral Answers12 MAY 2009 Oral Answers 668

Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD): Following the The Secretary of State for Health (Alan Johnson): We question from the hon. Member for Wyre Forest have been preparing for a flu pandemic for the past five (Dr. Taylor), Medical News Today reports that years. On 22 November 2007, I made a statement to the “some…EU-qualified doctors acquired their rights to practise House introducing the national framework for responding without any specific training in general practice.” to an influenza pandemic. That document, jointly published However, they could end up—and have ended up—working by the Department of Health and the Cabinet Office in our out-of-hours services. While it is not possible to civil contingencies secretariat, is the cross-Government prevent such doctors from practising in this country, it strategy for dealing with an influenza pandemic. The is possible to stop them being employed in NHS out-of- planning process is supported by exercises carried out hours services. Is it not time that the Minister ended by the Health Protection Agency. The framework is that practice and made it an absolute requirement on guiding our response to the current H1N1 outbreak, out-of-hours providers that they cannot employ anyone and the World Health Organisation has recognised Britain without the training required for British-trained GPs, as one of the best-prepared countries in the world. as well as for those GPs who come from outside the EU. Mr. Gray: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for Mr. Bradshaw: Without repeating what I have said that reply. We are all glad that the spread of the flu about the legal duties of the commissioners of the seems to have slowed, at least for the moment; we are service and employers to verify whether someone is fit particularly glad that, rather puzzlingly, there have been to practise, and about the role of the GMC, I am sure no fatalities outside Mexico. I do not know why that that all those organisations, including the GMC, will be should be, but there it is. very interested in the article that the hon. Gentleman has just produced. Mr. Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): There have been a few. Mark Simmonds (Boston and Skegness) (Con): May I press the Minister a little further? I do not wish to repeat what has already been said, but it is quite clear Mr. Gray: Perhaps there have been one or two; I have that the Government mismanaged the negotiations on been corrected by my hon. Friend on the Front Bench. the 2004 GP contract resulting, whatever the Minister Does the Secretary of State agree that if an awful says, in an out-of-hours service that is at best fragmented pandemic were to occur, an important tool in dealing and inconsistent. As we have heard, the tragic death of with it would be the national flu helpline? Will he David Gray in Cambridgeshire starkly highlighted the explain why the Government have announced that the inconsistencies and variations in primary care trusts’ helpline will not be operative until the end of this year? registration of locums, as well as the lack of co-ordinated quality in patient safety standards. That needs to be Alan Johnson: First, I should correct the hon. Gentleman. addressed urgently. Does the Minister agree that that There have been three deaths in the USA, one in Canada demonstrates that GPs are closest to their patients and and one in Costa Rica. However, it is true that the the communities they serve, and are therefore in a majority of deaths have been in Mexico. I am pleased to significantly better position to commission out-of-hours say that we will have a debate on this issue on Thursday. care on their patients’ behalf, without necessarily having When we discussed it last Thursday, the issue of the flu to provide it themselves? line came up. I say again that we agreed the contract with British Telecom last December. It will be ready in Mr. Bradshaw: It is only since 2004 that we have had a October, after the most thorough testing. No country in framework that is supposed to deliver a uniform service the world has such a sophisticated system. Its purpose is across the country. People behave and talk as if there to enable people who are symptomatic to go home and was some golden age in which there was a wonderful stay there, ring a number or go on the internet, go out-of-hours service, but it did not exist. Some parts of through an algorithm, get a code and send someone else the country did not have a service at all; in other parts, to collect their antivirals. In that way, people will not the service was dangerous or patchy. Doctors resented walk around spreading the disease further. being forced to do that work, and we had massive No country in the world has such a system. We have recruitment problems, particularly for women doctors. the opportunity to introduce it in October, but, as I said Doctors were often overtired, and there were serious to the House last week, there was no way we were going accidents. We now have a system in place with a legal to introduce it without the most thorough testing. The responsibility on the commissioners at local level—the last thing we need in the middle of a pandemic is the PCTs—to deliver a quality service for their population. breakdown of an IT system—and we have a certain They are overseen by the regional level of the NHS and amount of history on that. by the independent regulator, who did not exist before. We therefore believe that we have the right systems in place—it is the implementation of those systems that Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North) (Lab): Is my we need to ensure is right, and as the independent right hon. Friend aware that there have been two cases Healthcare Commission itself says, the quality of out- of swine flu in my county, one of them in my constituency? of-hours services has improved significantly since 2005. One of the issues is how people can best protect themselves and know where the outbreaks are without anybody’s Influenza Pandemic confidentiality being breached and without an excessive sense of panic being created. Can my right hon. Friend 4. Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): What say how he would balance those issues, so that people contingency plan his Department has in the event of an know enough to protect themselves without there being influenza pandemic; and if he will make a statement. undue concern about the number of cases and where [274101] they are? 669 Oral Answers12 MAY 2009 Oral Answers 670

Alan Johnson: That has been working well. The Health that the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) Protection Agency has been doing the contact tracing— spoke about without interfering with the production of tracing those who have been in close contact with seasonal flu vaccines, which are to a great extent used people who are symptomatic. When we publish the by the elderly, but also by people with chronic conditions. information about new cases, the agency makes sure We are aware of the issues with the elderly. We are that the families and close relatives have been advised considering who would be the priorities for a vaccine first, so that the information is known to them first, and once it starts coming through; the elderly may or may then we do the contact tracing. not be in that category once we know more about this Generally, it is no secret when there has been an disease. outbreak. One of our worries has been the problems that children have been having. Text messages have been Choose and Book System sent and there has been bullying around the idea that people from the school concerned have some kind of 5. Andrew George (St. Ives) (LD): What proportion plague. That has caused the Health Protection Agency of expenditure on the NHS IT programme has been not to name publicly the schools involved. I guess that, incurred on the choose and book system to date; and if locally, the schools will become known pretty quickly, he will make a statement. [274102] not least because they generally close for seven days. But people are trying to be sensitive about the information and to ensure that the policy of containment works and The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Ben that people support it. Incidentally, all our evidence Bradshaw): Spending on the development, delivery and from the public—most recently this morning—is that maintenance of the choose and book IT system to between 75 and 80 per cent. of them think that what I March 2009 was £134 million. As at 31 March 2008, have described is the right way to deal with the outbreak. which is the latest date for which an estimate of the overall local and central expenditure on the NHS IT Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Castle View school programme was made, the National Audit Office estimated on Canvey Island in my constituency is now closed that a total of some £3.55 billion had been spent on the following five outbreaks of swine influenza. I congratulate programme. the Government on their strategy and in particular on their building up of Tamiflu stocks. Will the Secretary Andrew George: I am grateful to the Minister for that of State estimate how long it will take for a specific reply. I speak to a lot of GPs, as I am sure all Members H1N1 vaccine to become available? What research is do, and the impression that I get from them is that being done on that right now? Will he confirm how long patients prefer their GPs’ advice. GPs know their patients schools that are closed must remain closed, so that our rather better than do software systems, which often constituents can start to plan again? override patient preferences anyway. In view of that, and given that the system has had a long time to bed in, Alan Johnson: I hope to be able to say more about the is the Minister content that it is giving real value for vaccine in the debate on Thursday. British scientists at money? the Health Protection Agency in Colindale have identified the strain—the so-called isolate. They have passed that Mr. Bradshaw: I am slightly puzzled by the hon. to Potter’s Bar, where the National Institute for Biological Gentleman’s question. There is no contradiction between Standards and Control will now do the work of producing using choose and book and giving patients choice; in a vaccine. That work has been completed, and the next fact, choose and book is a vital component in helping stage is what I hope to be able to tell Parliament about GPs to ensure that their patients are given choice. If, as on Thursday. Efforts are going on in this country and he says, there are GPs in Cornwall who are not offering abroad to ensure that we get a vaccine developed as their patients that choice, I find that as unacceptable as quickly as possible. Of course, it would take at least five he does. If there is a problem with the choose and book to six months to manufacture and produce it. However, system whereby slots are not becoming available, which we hope that having taken the first step, whereby we may be what he wants me to address, that is an issue have identified the isolate, the next stage—to get the that the local primary care trust needs to address. The vaccine from that—is very close. latest figures for Cornwall that I have show that it is one of the highest performers in the country on choose and Ms Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab): Accepting book, with up to 80 per cent. of GP referrals being that if swine flu does take place, the elderly will be made through that system. It therefore sounds to me as particularly vulnerable, will my right hon. Friend not though both choose and book and the choice system only acknowledge that fact but explain to the House are working pretty well in Cornwall. what systems are in place locally within the community to ensure that an early warning system is available and Mr. Andy Reed (Loughborough) (Lab/Co-op): My that medical help is immediate? hon. Friend is right to introduce technology into the national health service, particularly in these formats. Alan Johnson: The elderly are obviously a prime However, given that according to the National Audit concern, particularly if they are living on their own and Office the figures are running at £3.5 billion, has he need someone else to get their antivirals for them. At analysed the benefit that is derived from such schemes the moment, the evidence from Mexico—the HPA has compared with the cost of investing in other parts of just finished a week there and has brought back lots of the NHS? There is a great feeling that IT is overtaking detailed information—is that the people who are dying many other aspects of clinical care, and that many local are aged between 25 and 50. My hon. Friend raises an needs could otherwise be met through those funds. Is he important point. We must try to produce the vaccine convinced of the value for money of this funding? 671 Oral Answers12 MAY 2009 Oral Answers 672

Mr. Bradshaw: There is no doubt that an initiative Trusts are committed to promoting responsible whistleblowing as such as choose and book is cheaper and easier to use an essential aspect of good clinical governance. Whistleblowing and helps to enable the choice system or other elements in today’s NHS need not end in tears.” of the national IT programme such as picture archiving, That is supplemented by a survey of nurses, to which 87 which is incredibly important and successful around the per cent. responded that they would blow the whistle, so country. No one can have any doubt that these initiatives to speak, even if they suffered reprisals. The good news have not only improved the quality of patient care but is that nurses say that the culture is improving year on are saving the NHS a lot of money. At this stage of the year, and 77 per cent. say that the culture for raising national programme’s development, it is difficult to concerns in their work is better than it was three years quantify the total benefit in terms of economics and ago. patient gain, but every day patients and clinicians are benefiting from the advantages that the computer system provides to them. There are still many challenges ahead—I Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): I am afraid that the do not duck those at all—but countries all over the Secretary of State completely misunderstands the position. world are considering this, including Barack Obama’s The fact is that there are whistleblowers, but they are America, where people are looking to introduce a similar terrified to come forward. I have my own evidence of sort of national computer system into the American that, which I was hoping to raise when he gave an oral health care system as the one we have here. statement on Stafford hospital, which he has declined to do. The reality is that devices are being employed by Mr. Stephen O’Brien (Eddisbury) (Con): More than certain hospitals and hospital authorities to bypass the three years ago, Tony Blair promised that patient choice 1998 Act, which is good in intention. would be a key driver of reform, but in February this I strongly dispute the idea that Public Concern at year the Minister had to admit that the choose and Work or the Royal College of Nursing takes the view book system was being used by as few as 12 per cent. of that the Secretary of State describes. He grossly GPs in some primary care trusts and that a mere three misunderstands the nature of the exercise. It is very PCTs had, only recently, hit the Government’s downgraded serious, and people are being terrified into not making target of 90 per cent. usage, which was meant to be statements. At Stafford hospital and others in the region, reached two years ago. Given that doctors are finding from which people have contacted me, the situation is that the system is slow to use and crashes frequently, very serious and needs to be dealt with. He is thoroughly will the Minister tell the House the average percentage complacent. of GP referrals that are now being made through choose and book, and whether he thinks that this is yet another example of his failure to deliver? Alan Johnson: We have talked before about the mystery at Stafford being the absence of any whistleblower. Mr. Bradshaw: Fifty-three per cent., and no. There was an absence of whistleblowers when the general Whistleblowers secretary of the RCN visited Stafford, when the Leader of the Opposition visited Stafford and said to the press 6. Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) (Lab): afterwards what a great hospital it was, and through all What steps he is taking to ensure adequate protection the different procedures. for whistleblowers in the NHS. [274103] The hon. Gentleman accuses me of complacency, but The Secretary of State for Health (Alan Johnson): give us the evidence and we will deal with things. The The Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 gives clear legal law on whistleblowing, which the Opposition voted safeguards to NHS staff who disclose protected information against at the time, is very clear. There is a very clear in the public interest. The penalties for those who protection. I have quoted the charity that has been punish staff for using that law are severe. The Department responsible for pushing the matter—those were not my has made it clear that every NHS trust should have local words but the charity’s. We also have the evidence of a policies and procedures in place to comply with the Act. very wide survey of nursing staff. Against all that, the The NHS constitution handbook, published on 21 January hon. Gentleman says that we are complacent. We have 2009, sets out how staff should have introduced the legislation and the constitution that “protection from detriment in employment and the right not to be bolsters it, and we have made it absolutely clear that the unfairly dismissed for ‘whistleblowing’ or reporting wrongdoing law protects people in that situation. I do not accept in the workplace.” that nurses, and least of all consultants or doctors—I have yet to meet a shy consultant—would not come Mr. Cunningham: I thank my right hon. Friend for forward on such a serious issue because they were that answer, but some weeks ago, he was asked why we somehow terrified, despite the protection of the law. I do not have enough whistleblowers. In my experience in am sorry, but I do not accept it. Coventry, we have had one or two whistleblowers who were on the receiving end of disciplinary action. How can we encourage whistleblowers if that sort of thing happens? Mr. David Kidney (Stafford) (Lab): I must say to my right hon. Friend that the culture is changing more Alan Johnson: That is unacceptable, and it certainly is quickly in some parts of the NHS than in others. not the view of Public Concern at Work, the independent charity that, to a large degree, drove the introduction of To be constructive, will my right hon. Friend confirm the Public Interest Disclosure Act back in the late ’90s. that the Department has a contract with Public Concern It states that at Work to provide free, confidential legal advice to “the culture is changing and people up and down the NHS are NHS staff about whistleblowing? Will he consider perhaps much more aware today that they may have to account for their making more effort to promote and publicise access to actions…Recent initiatives mean that many, if not most, NHS that service? 673 Oral Answers12 MAY 2009 Oral Answers 674

Alan Johnson: I will confirm that. I was the junior The Minister of State, Department of Health (Dawn Minister who introduced the Act and we do have such Primarolo): It is hard to assess the risk posed by swine an agreement with Public Concern at Work. flu as the clinical picture remains unclear. There are However, my hon. Friend was with me at Stafford some indications that the virus may cause only mild hospital when we sat with all the representatives of the symptoms, and that, in some cases, people have recovered unions and the royal colleges—no manager in sight. We without antivirals. However, an overall prognosis for said that we were a bit puzzled about why no one blew the impact of the virus is still difficult to determine at the whistle, but there was no answer to that. No one present and it is still too early for confident predictions told us that it was because people were terrified of about the possible severity of the flu in the United raising points. I have no doubt that there were serious Kingdom. problems at Stafford hospital or that the staff were not listened to the many times they made representations, Dr. Palmer: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for but my hon. Friend will agree that there is a total that reply. I have read the brochure that the Department absence of evidence to show that someone was prepared circulated with great interest, and it is helpful. However, to blow the whistle, but was disinclined to do so because I am sure that my right hon. Friend agrees that there is they did not feel that they had the protection of the law. some difficulty with the substantial overlap between the symptoms of normal flu and those of swine flu. What would she recommend that my constituents do if they Anne Milton (Guildford) (Con): The Secretary of seem to have a severe case of what may well be normal State acknowledged in the House on 18 March with flu? Should they go to their GP, ring a helpline or wait reference to the Healthcare Commission’s report on and see? Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust: “The Healthcare Commission has said that clinicians and staff Dawn Primarolo: What I would say to my hon. Friend gave up registering complaints at the hospital because they felt and, in particular, to anybody who has been following that they were wasting their time”. the media coverage is that either there has to be contact He also acknowledged that the absence of whistleblowers with somebody who has travelled to Mexico or the was person affected has to have travelled to Mexico. They “one of the great mysteries of Stafford”.—[Official Report, 18 March should then phone for advice, from either their GP, 2009; Vol. 489, c. 922.] NHS Direct or the flu service line. He should not be surprised. I cannot help feeling that we are living in parallel universes. A recent RCN poll of David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): Earlier the Secretary 5,000 nurses said that two thirds of nurses had raised of State said that the isolate had been identified and he concerns about care— spoke about the work of Potters Bar on the vaccine. What international co-operation has there been between Mr. Speaker: Order. Front Benchers have the privilege the Department and other countries, or are we at risk of of getting in on the questions they choose, but that is seeing vaccines being almost completed in countries not an opportunity to make a statement. Back Benchers round the world, yet without any proper understanding must be considered, so perhaps the Secretary of State between them? will try to answer what the hon. Lady has already said. Dawn Primarolo: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are co-operating with our European neighbours, Alan Johnson: I do not think that there are any party the World Health Organisation and the United States. political differences on the matter—we all want the That information is shared, because the isolation of the issues at Stafford to be resolved. The hon. Member for virus in the UK, for instance, is the isolation of the Stone (Mr. Cash) has pushed the matter vociferously, as virus that happens to be in the UK, and it is compared has my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Kidney). with the isolates of the virus in, for instance, the United We want a solution. States. There is absolutely international co-operation I am also struck by the reluctance of the public in on the issue to ensure that the development of a vaccine, Stafford to be involved in Stafford hospital. We have if that is possible, is shared equally on a world basis. talked about the staff—it is a foundation trust, so the staff have an important involvement in it—but there is Mr. Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): also a problem with the public coming forward and The right hon. Lady will know that, through its modelling, getting involved— which has been published in the journal Science, the Imperial College team has said, albeit with great uncertainty Mr. Speaker: Order. Maybe the hon. Lady has a at this stage, that the information points to a pandemic, point when she feels peeved that I told her she was potentially at the lowest end of the scenarios that we making a statement, so I shall tell the Secretary of State have discussed for a number of years in the contingency that his answer is a bit too long. How’s that? I can be plan. That would imply something in the order of one more even handed. quarter more of the population being affected, with perhaps four in 100 people affected being hospitalised Swine Influenza and perhaps four in 1,000 people affected dying. Given that, will the right hon. Lady confirm that we need to continue the counter-measures against the virus, in 9. Dr. Nick Palmer (Broxtowe) (Lab): What his most order to seek to contain it, and, in particular, that we recent assessment is of the level of risk posed to public will maintain post-exposure prophylaxis until such time health by the current outbreak of swine influenza. as the virus is spread in the community and that we will [274106] pursue household prophylaxis thereafter? 675 Oral Answers12 MAY 2009 Oral Answers 676

Dawn Primarolo: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, The Minister of State, Department of Health (Dawn because I know that he and my right hon. Friend the Primarolo): In the 24 months ending September 2008, Secretary of State have been able to speak about the 66,250 people saw an NHS dentist on the Isle of Wight. issue a number of times. I would like to confirm to him The equivalent figure for England was 27.1 million. We what the Secretary of State has already said about have increased dental funding to more than £2 billion containment before—and if—the flu moves to sustained and made it a national priority in the NHS operating person-to-person transmission across communities. I framework that primary care trusts commission services absolutely confirm to the hon. Gentleman, particularly to ensure access for anyone who seeks help in finding an given that the World Health Organisation is at phase 5, NHS dentist. The NHS is planning that all PCTs will that we will continue that planning until we have a deliver this by March 2011. much better understanding of the virus. We would then be able to share the details of that planning with him, Mr. Turner: I thank the right hon. Lady very much. including what steps should be taken after that. It is There was an improvement in the availability of dentists crucial that we continue to share that information. on the island until the NHS abolished registration. We now have figures that show the number treatments, Elderly Care Beds rather than the number of individual patients getting treatment. Will she explain why the figures are now 10. Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): What taking this form, rather than the old form? the role of primary care trusts is in the allocation of beds for care of the elderly. [274107] Dawn Primarolo: On the Isle of Wight, the number of people getting access to, and treatment from, NHS The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil dentists increased from 26.2 per cent. to 38.1 per cent. Hope): Primary care trusts work with local authority between March 2006 and September 2008. In fact, that partners to commission high-quality care services from is the biggest percentage increase in the country. The appropriate providers to meet local patient needs, with Isle of Wight is doing precisely as the Government have a clear focus on improving health outcomes for the advised. It is looking at local need, commissioning the population, including older people. It is the responsibility appropriate services and delivering that access. I understand of each provider—be it the hospital, the residential that the hon. Gentleman would like that process to facility or another provider—to determine the level of move faster, but the ring-fenced investment and the service provision, such as bed numbers, to meet expected plans are in place, and the powers are in place for the demand and to provide high-quality care. PCTs. He has seen a marked improvement in his constituency. Miss McIntosh: I put it to the Minister that it is entirely wrong that primary care trusts that are not Topical Questions clinically qualified should deprive dying patients of beds. I hope that he will remove them from the picture and allow a decision to be taken by clinically qualified T1. [274124] Kerry McCarthy (Bristol, East) (Lab): If practitioners. he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. Phil Hope: I understand the importance of the issue to the hon. Lady, but it is vital that we have an appropriate The Secretary of State for Health (Alan Johnson): process for commissioning high-quality services locally. The responsibilities of my Department embrace the It is the responsibility of primary care trusts to undertake whole range of NHS social care, mental health and that function and, in the case of the care of elderly public health service delivery, all of which are of equal people, to do so, through beds in hospitals, beds in importance. residential care and so on, in partnership with their local authorities. It is their responsibility to ensure that Kerry McCarthy: I am sure that my right hon. Friend we have high-quality services from those appropriate shares my concern about the continued inequalities in providers. It is also a responsibility—this is subject to relation to cardiovascular disease. Will he provide me inspections and so on by the Care Quality Commission—to with an update on what is being done to tackle inequalities ensure that the relevant provider provides that high-quality not only in the prevalence of the disease but in access to care in a way that meets elderly people’s needs. care? Miss McIntosh: Owing to that entirely inadequate response, Mr. Speaker, I move for an Adjournment Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend is absolutely right debate to be held on that question. about the importance of this matter. The inequalities relating to cardiovascular disease have narrowed Mr. Speaker: I hear the hon. Lady, but we must move substantially over the past eight years, and we are well on. on track for a 40 per cent. reduction in the inequalities gap by 2010. The most important measure—among a range that I have too little time to set out—is the NHS Dentistry introduction of a vascular health check for everyone between the ages of 40 and 74 on a call-and-recall basis 11. Mr. Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): What every three years. That programme commenced last his latest assessment is of levels of access to NHS month and it will be one of the most important contributors dentistry in (a) the Isle of Wight and (b) England. to tackling this disease and to focusing the NHS much [274108] more on prevention than on diagnosis and cure. 677 Oral Answers12 MAY 2009 Oral Answers 678

T2. [274125] Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): A number The first thing we have to do is to define long-term of my constituents have been the victims of contaminated conditions—some very easily slot into that definition blood. When will the Government respond to the Archer and there is no mystery, but there are some cases around report, and may we have a debate so that we can the edges that we need to be absolutely sure about. That consider the report and Tainted Blood’s document, “We is why we asked Professor Ian Gilmore to carry out this Accuse”? This is a matter of decency and fair play for report. I understand that his work will be completed in those victims. the summer.

The Minister of State, Department of Health (Dawn T6. [274129] Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) Primarolo): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State (LD): The Secretary of State will recall our meeting and I have met Lord Archer to discuss his report, and over the future of St. Helier hospital. There has been a the Government intend to respond to his findings before further slight delay as a result of some more modelling the House adjourns for the spring bank holiday recess. that needs to be done. Will he take the opportunity to The question of a debate is a bit beyond my remit, reconfirm that the rebuilding of St. Helier hospital and Mr. Speaker, but I am sure that you heard what the hon. the development of the local care hospitals, as Gentleman said. proposed by “Better Healthcare Closer to Home”, is still exactly the type of project that the Government T4. [274127] Natascha Engel (North-East Derbyshire) (Lab): As my right hon. Friend is aware, the few people want to see proceed? with thalidomide-related conditions who have survived are now in their mid-to-late 40s. Many of them Alan Johnson: I can confirm that. It is the type of experience severe pain and serious physical difficulties. project that we want to succeed because it is the type of Will her Department look into providing extra funding project that the local NHS feels is absolutely essential. to support those people? As far as I am aware, nothing has changed from the position that obtained when we met in my office a few Dawn Primarolo: As my hon. Friend will know, the months ago. Department of Health’s long-held policy is not to fund in cases such as these. However, she has raised details T5. [274128] Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): The about which the whole House will be concerned and on Secretary of State will recall that I raised with him on which it will want to see progress. The Secretary of previous questions the decision of Newcastle laundries. State has offered to have a meeting with officials and Newcastle hospital pulled out of a laundry contract the national advisory council of the Thalidomide Trust involving the Queen Elizabeth hospital in Gateshead. I to pursue these matters, and I agreed during an thank my right hon. Friend for the response from his Adjournment debate on 31 March to meet the all-party office, but it was based solely on information from the group on thalidomide. My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle side. The Queen Elizabeth side is very Gower (Mr. Caton), who chairs the group, is going to concerned because Newcastle is saying that it can save write to me with details of the points that he wishes to 35 per cent. of the cost and Gateshead is putting the raise with the Department on behalf of the group. That figure at more like 1 per cent. Will the Secretary of offers us a way of taking this matter forward. State meet me and representatives from the hospital as a matter of urgency to try and work this out? T3. [274126] Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): Stockport NHS Foundation Trust has paid £2,937,000 Alan Johnson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for of interest charges on loans taken out to cover the writing to me, following the last Health questions. I deficit on its finances. That rate is 10 times the Bank of wrote to him earlier today about this. The local health England base rate and is paid to the NHS bank. Will trust says that giving this contract—[Interruption.] Postmen the Secretary of State arrange for that rate to be can deliver very quickly. The gloriously named Sunlight brought more into line with the Bank of England rate, Laundry, which will take over this project, can do reducing those interest charges and allowing more everything being done at the moment but at a lower money to be spent in Stockport on NHS health, as it price. I am sure that it does not want its dirty linen to be was originally intended? washed in public, so what I have done in my letter to my hon. Friend is to offer a meeting with the Under-Secretary The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Ben of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Bradshaw): I will happily look into the case that the Brentford and Isleworth (Ann Keen). I hope that it can hon. Gentleman raises. He will know that foundation take place shortly. trusts come under the remit of Monitor rather than the direct remit of the Department of Health. I would also T8. [274131] Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): The King’s point out the finances not only of his local hospital but Fund advises that the poor state of the public finances of the NHS in general are in much better shape than means that the NHS must prepare, at best, for very low they were even just three or four years ago. or zero growth in funding from 2011 onwards. I would Mr. Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): May I like to know what the Secretary of State is doing to congratulate my right hon. Friend on the abolition of advise strategic health authorities that they must now NHS prescription charges for cancer patients? Will he start planning for zero or very low growth within the tell us when the review of long-term conditions that are NHS from 2011 onwards? currently not exempt from such charges will be completed? Alan Johnson: What we have done since the allocations Alan Johnson: My right hon. Friend is right to say that took place last December—it was a two-year allocation that we took the decision on cancer prescriptions as the of 5.5 per cent. each year and included the ability to first step towards looking at other long-term conditions. draw down £800 million of surplus—is to say that there 679 Oral Answers12 MAY 2009 Oral Answers 680 is a message here. It comes from the chief executive of Gloucestershire residents registered with GPs in Wales the NHS as well, and it is that the NHS has to prepare to establish how many of them might wish to register for a time when we will not have such spectacular with GPs in England, with a view to providing more increases in growth. We brought the level of investment GPs in the part of the hon. Gentleman’s constituency up to within touching distance of the European average. where a problem exists. Now that we are there, at around 9 per cent., it is Charlotte Atkins (Staffordshire, Moorlands) (Lab): inconceivable—irrespective, incidentally, of the economic Why are NHS children-only dental contracts still operating situation—that such large increases will continue. The with private dentists? Is that not an unacceptable legacy message from the chief executive of the NHS and from of practice in the past, when parents were persuaded to me is that we need to think in a five-year time frame, take up private treatment on the basis that their children including not just the next two years, but the three years would continue to receive NHS treatment? to follow. We cannot say at this stage what the expenditure will Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend is a member of the be in the NHS, but we can say that it will continue to be Select Committee on Health, which produced a very our absolute priority. As the Prime Minister told the good report on dentistry, and that is one of the points Royal College of Nursing yesterday, we hope very much that it raised. I have asked Professor Jimmy Steele to to ensure that there are real-terms increases over the examine all the issues, including registration and children’s coming years, although they may not be at the same services, and to report back very quickly. I hope that at level as in the past. the same time we can produce a response to the Committee’s report, because I think that it made an important T7. [274130] John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) contribution to the debate about the future of dentistry. (Lab): My right hon. Friend will share my concern Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): One in five about what are labelled “legal high” drugs, which are people in the United Kingdom suffers from hay fever, appearing not only on the internet but in shops. That especially at this time of year, and one in three people label hides the real nature of the drugs. What is my will deliver an allergy at some point in their lives. What right hon. Friend doing to assess the position, to try to are the Government doing to raise awareness among stop the drugs from appearing—especially in shops— GPs of immunotherapy as a treatment that can tackle and to protect children who have access to them? causes, not just symptoms, and bring lasting relief to many allergy sufferers? Dawn Primarolo: My hon. Friend has raised a very Alan Johnson: I have absolutely no idea, but, as a hay important point, which will concern all Members, about fever sufferer myself, I intend to find out. the drugs that are apparently being made available, particularly those containing benzylpiperazine. The Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): I thank my right Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency hon. Friend for his visit to Chorley hospital, but may I is pursuing the matter, and is trying to establish whether draw his attention to an issue that affects the whole of the drugs need to be defined as medicines when they are Lancashire and, indeed, the whole country? I refer to sold either on the internet or over the counter. In the funding of mental health services. We all know that addition, the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs mental health care is a poor relation. What can my right is considering the whole issue and, in particular, whether hon. Friend do to help pensioners who suffer from certain products should now be banned. When we receive mental illness? Can he secure extra funds and support, its recommendations, I shall be more than happy to and ensure that provision is seamless between social inform my hon. Friend of them, because the present services, primary care trusts and hospitals themselves? position is resulting in deadly drugs being available Alan Johnson: I very much enjoyed my visit to my when they should not be. hon. Friend’s constituency; I saw some very good things going on there. On mental health, last year’s OECD Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): The Minister report said that Britain is in the lead on mental health of State will know from our recent Adjournment debate services—in the lead on the number of psychiatrists and how important it is for thousands of my constituents to psychiatric nurses per head of population, and in the be guaranteed access to GPs registered in England so lead in having the lowest suicide rates since records that they, residents of England, can be treated under the began. We want to do more, however. The roll-out of rules of the English NHS rather than those of the psychological therapies is crucial to people of all age Welsh health service. Is he able to update me following groups, but especially pensioners, and 3,600 psychological his recent visit to my constituency and his meeting with therapists are being trained up in what Lord Layard the chief executive of my local primary care trust? describes as the biggest single improvement to mental health since the NHS began. Mr. Bradshaw: I am well aware of the issue, because the hon. Gentleman has raised it with me on a number Mr. Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale, West) (Con): of occasions. I am not sure that anyone could say with In the interests of value for money in the NHS, may I any confidence that thousands of people may be in this ask Ministers to look into the prescription of what are position, but there is no doubt that a number of them known as “specials” by GPs? A local pharmacist has may be. Having discussed the matter with the chief written to me giving an example of a product consisting executive of NHS Gloucestershire during my visit to of 50 g of Betnovate cream, which costs £2.86, and the hon. Gentleman’s constituency last week, I can 450 g of E45, costing £5.39; the total cost of the mixed inform him that the primary care trust will seek to cream was £347.88. Clearly, there is money being wasted resolve the case that he raised with it, involving a here; will Ministers please look into this? particular couple. It also intends to survey all Dawn Primarolo: Yes, we certainly will. 681 12 MAY 2009 Points of Order 682

Points of Order Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman will know that I am not in a position to bring the Secretary of State 3.31 pm before the House, except when an urgent question is granted. What I would say, however, is that the hon. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): On a point of order, Gentleman’s deep concern has been heard. It has been Mr. Speaker. It is stated on page 370 of the 22nd edition heard by the Health Ministers on the Treasury Bench. of “Erskine May” that There is also nothing to stop the hon. Gentleman “parliamentary government requires the majority to abide by a applying for an Adjournment debate, which would mean decision regularly come to, however unexpected”, that a Health Minister—I am not sure whether it would and page 368 says: be the Secretary of State—would certainly come before “Technically…the rescinding of a vote is a new question, the the House. form being to read the resolution of the House and to move that it be rescinded”. Mr. Cash: We have had one already. On 3 July 2008, amendment (f), which I proposed, was agreed unanimously and without dissent by the House. Mr. Speaker: Well, you can have another one. It removed the ability of Members of the House to designate separate homes as main homes for capital The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Ben gains tax purposes as opposed to main homes for Bradshaw) rose— expenses. It would appear that the House of Commons Commission has not applied that resolution, but, under Mr. Speaker: Would the Minister like to clarify the House of Commons (Administration) Act 1978, the something? Commission does not have the power in any way to overturn a decision of the House. I seek your guidance, Mr. Bradshaw: In response to the point of order, may Mr. Speaker, on when this resolution will be applied, or I say that we had a debate on whistleblowing in Westminster whether in fact it is being applied but that has not been Hall last week? It was initiated by the hon. Member for stated. Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor) and the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) did not bother to turn up. Mr. Speaker: I thank the hon. Member for giving me notice of his point of order. I understand his concern. Mr. Cash rose— This matter has been considered by the Members Estimate Committee and will, no doubt, again be considered by Mr. Speaker: Order. Allow me. I have given— the Committee. I will ensure that he gets a proper response. Mr. Cash: That is outrageous. May I also say to the hon. Gentleman that I am not saying that we did not fully understand the amendment, Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that I have given the hon. but if he can come to the Clerk of the House and give us Gentleman two pieces of advice, and perhaps he will an explanation of his interpretation of it, that will help consider the steer that I am giving him. I cannot do the Members Estimate Committee. I hope that that is better than that. all right with the hon. Gentleman, and that he is prepared to do that. Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. At column 548 in yesterday’s Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): On a point of order, Hansard, you explained all the reasons why the Metropolitan Mr. Speaker. In Health questions just now, I referred to police have been called in over the alleged stealing of a Stafford hospital. In the light of what the Leader of the disc, which was probably sold to The Telegraph.Ihave House said in reply to a question that I put on 30 April, absolutely no disagreement with all the reasons that you I and other Members thought we could expect an oral gave, but, on reflection, I wonder whether it would be statement—not merely a written statement—from the right for you to apologise to my hon. Friend the Member Secretary of State regarding the Stafford hospital situation, for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey). When she raised a point of given the reports. In fact, I think it is true to say that the order, you referred to her “public utterances” and “pearls Secretary of State has certainly, during the course of of wisdom”. [Interruption.] May I put it to you, sir, the last 10 days, indicated to me that he thought he that a Member of Parliament should be able to raise a would be doing so. On Thursday last week, however, I point of order without there being such personal comments, received a letter from the Leader of the House and, which some of us at least—not all of us, apparently— without going into the detail, it says: consider inappropriate. Should not the Speaker always “Thursday’s statement”— refrain from personal comments? that is the written statement— “represents the Government’s response”. Mr. Speaker: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman In other words, we are not getting an oral statement. I was in the Chamber yesterday. have to say that in the light of questions relating to whistleblowing and my own and others’ determination Mr. Winnick: I was in the Chamber throughout. to have a public inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005, which would protect whistleblowers, we need to have a Mr. Speaker: Well, perhaps the hon. Gentleman could proper statement from the Secretary of State on these have raised a point of order then. That was the business reports. Mr. Speaker, will you please protect the House of yesterday, and we have moved on from there. and ensure that the Secretary of State comes to the House and gives an oral statement? Mr. Winnick: That is not adequate. 683 Points of Order 12 MAY 2009 684

Mr. Speaker: Order. If that is not adequate, the hon. Surface Water and Highway Drainage Gentleman knows what he must do. Charges (Exemption) Bill Tom Levitt (High Peak) (Lab): Further to the point of Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw No. 23) (John Mann), Mr. Speaker. Whatever the outcome of the discussions he has with the House of Commons 3.37 pm Commission, is it your belief that any such change on Mr. Mike Hall (Weaver Vale) (Lab): I beg to move, the question of the nomination of homes could not be That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require water companies retrospective and therefore would not apply to any of to exempt from surface water and highway drainage charges the information currently in the public domain? places of worship, non-profit making sports clubs, scout groups and guide associations; and for connected purposes. Mr. Speaker: That is a matter for the Members Estimate In short, the need for this Bill has been created by the Committee, and I cannot go into it on the Floor of the water regulator, Ofwat, when it called on water companies House. to alter the way in which they charged for surface area and highway drainage, and by the very short-sighted actions of United Utilities, when it implemented changes to the way in which it charged non-household customers for surface water drainage—incidentally, those changes were approved by Ofwat. On 30 September 2003, Ofwat announced the outcome of its review into how water companies charged for surface water drainage. It concluded that the fairest way to charge for surface water drainage was by charging non-household customers on the basis of the size of their estate—that is called site area charging. However, Ofwat failed to implement its own guidance in those matters and did not carry out a regulatory impact assessment on the change of policy. Astonishingly, it did no work on the impact that surface area charging would have on community voluntary groups. What Ofwat did instead was to warn water companies that a change to surface area charging may have a negative impact on sensitive properties such as schools, hospitals and places of worship. In general, Ofwat warned water companies that they would need to take into account the scale and speed of any changes to see whether they were reasonable and acceptable to customers. United Utilities took Ofwat’s advice and brought in surface area charging, but it did not take into account the scale and speed of the changes, the impact that that would have on its customers and whether that was reasonable or acceptable. In defence of the change, United Utilities stated that it had been required by Ofwat to bring in surface area charging. It went on to claim that the changes would be revenue neutral. On that point, United Utilities has not been able to produce figures that substantiate that claim. It was not long before churches, community sports clubs and scout groups contacted me about media reports and contacts from their parent organisations warning that they would be required by United Utilities to pay massive increases for surface area and highway drainage. Before the change to surface area charging was introduced, such organisations had been granted significant discounts on their water bills because of their status. Their bills were based on the rateable value of their property, which was either zero or heavily discounted. I took up these cases with United Utilities. Sadly, in several cases, it emerged that United Utilities had not been billing the organisations for water rates at all, and it then decided to issue them with water bills based on surface area charging. The bills were also backdated for seven years. That was a particularly insensitive approach by United Utilities. 685 Surface Water and Highway 12 MAY 2009 Surface Water and Highway 686 Drainage Charges (Exemption) Bill Drainage Charges (Exemption) Bill I will give two examples of just how much the water 2010-11, places of worship, community sports clubs, bills are going up. The 1st Halton scout group in my scout groups and guide associations will still be faced constituency saw its water bill go up from £37.80 to with substantially larger bills for surface area drainage. £198, which equals a massive 424 per cent. increase. Simply altering the implementation date is not good St. Mark’s church and the Bethesda church in the enough. Those organisations want to see a scheme that Hallwood ecumenical parish in Runcorn are billed jointly. places them back where they were prior to the change. In 2007-08, they did not pay any water rates. In 2008-09, Ofwat has made it clear that certain water companies their surface area charge went up to £181.76. That is set have been able to bring in changes to charges that have to rise to approximately £2,000 by 2010-11. That is a been beneficial to the communities they serve, and it massive increase that the Hallwood ecumenical parish cites Severn Trent Water. Severn Trent has an exemption will not be able to afford. for community and voluntary groups from surface area For places of worship, community sports clubs, scout charging. It is very popular with those groups, for groups and guide associations, every extra £1 they spend understandable reasons, and that is why there have been on surface water drainage is £1 less that they have to no complaints to Ofwat about the charges under Severn spend on the valuable services they provide for their Trent. Unfortunately, Ofwat has instructed Severn Trent parishioners, communities and members. In the area that the exemption cannot continue and that it must covered by United Utilities, there are more than 2,000 re-visit the scheme and remove any subsidies. faith buildings and 600 not-for-profit sports clubs. There Ofwat has made it clear to water companies that it are also 900 scout groups in the United Utilities area will not approve any tariffs for surface area charging which are going from strength to strength. Over a that involve cross-subsidies, are based on rateable values three-year period, those groups will face an increase in or involve exemptions. Ofwat has also instructed all bills of up to around £2,000 per annum. If those increases water companies that their tariffs for surface area charging are implemented, for many groups it will mean bankruptcy. have to be approved by November this year. Conversely, There has been considerable criticism of the way in Ofwat has not said what types of charges other than which the surface area charging scheme has been surface area charging will be acceptable. Unless something implemented for places of worship, community sports is done now, places of worship, non-profit making clubs, scouts and guides. That criticism has come from sports clubs, scout groups and guide associations will both sides of this House, and we have seen concerted still be faced with the bills, which will have been delayed effort from hon. Members, especially through the all-party for only 12 months. scout group, to try to change the policy. Interestingly, Ofwat has now started to criticise United Utilities’ United Utilities and other water companies have approach. fallen foul of the same directives from Ofwat. We have here a classic case of unintended consequences of the On 21 January, Ofwat issued a statement saying that actions of the regulator, and only the regulator can United Utilities had poorly implemented the new system break the deadlock and put things right. United Utilities of surface water charges. In particular, it had failed to and other water companies say that they do not have communicate the fairness and environmental benefits the legal scope to bring in a scheme for surface area of the new system and failed to take into account the charging that will benefit places of worship, community impact on the 2,000 faith buildings and 600 not-for-profit sports clubs and guides and scouts. sports clubs in its area. Ofwat went on to announce that United Utilities had agreed to a one-year moratorium The Bill sends a very strong message to Ofwat that it during which surface area charges would be frozen at must act now to break the deadlock, and must start to 2008-09 levels for faith buildings, community sports be part of the solution and stop being part of the clubs, scout groups and guide associations. problem. If action is not taken now, it will have a massive impact, with massive water bills closing down At face value, that was a much welcomed measure. places of worship, community sports clubs, scout groups However, I am very concerned that this one-year and guide associations across the county. The purpose moratorium will only delay the implementation of surface of this Bill is to provide certainty that such a scheme is area charging and will not result in a charging policy possible by bringing forward legislation that exempts that is both acceptable and fair to those groups. The places of worship, community sports clubs and guides reason why I am concerned is that Ofwat has made it and scouts from having to pay surface area drainage clear that United Utilities should use the one-year charges. I commend my Bill to the House. moratorium to work with customers to communicate the need for the new charges and offer advice on how Question put and agreed to. they can implement environmental improvements which Ordered, will help them to reduce costs significantly. That Mr. Mike Hall, Andrew Miller, Helen Southworth, Ofwat has also said that United Utilities will use the Derek Twigg, Mr. George Howarth, Ian Stewart, Mr. Greg moratorium to create a new time frame for the Pope, Mr. Neil Turner, Janet Anderson, Dr. Brian Iddon, implementation of the surface area charging scheme by Tom Levitt and David Heyes present the Bill. spreading the remaining charge over a longer period of time to allow time for customers to take measures that Mr. Mike Hall accordingly presented the Bill. will offset future costs and also benefit the environment. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on On that basis, at the beginning of the financial year Friday 16 October and to be printed (Bill 94). 687 12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 688

Finance Bill how much the proposal would cost and how the Opposition intend to pay for it. On the point of comparison, however, does the hon. Gentleman agree that our present (Clauses 7, 8, 9, 11, 14, 16, 20 and 92) 28 per cent. rate is distinctly lower than the various Considered in Committee forms of corporation tax in France or Germany, taken together? They are our principal competitors, so there is not a great deal to be gained from the comparisons that [SIR ALAN HASELHURST in the Chair] the hon. Gentleman makes.

The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Mr. Hoban: The hon. Gentleman has long experience I call Mr. Stephen Timms to move the order of of business, both in the UK and overseas. He will consideration motion. understand the importance of remaining competitive Ordered, and of always being vigilant about what other nations That the Order in which proceedings in the Committee of the are doing. Tax has become an increasingly important whole House on the Finance Bill are taken shall be: Clauses 7, 8, issue when it comes to the location of businesses and, 9, 11, 92, 14, 16 and 20.—(Mr. Timms.) given that both capital and labour are very mobile now, we need to pay attention to it. It is not good enough to The Chairman: I am very grateful to the right say, “Okay, France and Germany have higher rates than hon. Gentleman, otherwise we might never have started we do.” We need to look at the broad perspective, at all. because there are other countries that are happy to compete for inward investment and people to join their work forces. Clause 7 Mr. Robinson: Will the hon. Gentleman confirm the CHARGE AND MAIN RATES FOR FINANCIAL YEAR 2010 fact that we have a more competitive corporation tax rate than France or Germany? 3.49 pm Mr. Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con): I beg to move Mr. Hoban: But we have also slipped down the table: amendment 1, page 3, line 16, leave out ‘28%’ and our rate used to be the fourth lowest, and now it is the insert ‘25%’. 19th lowest. We can pick and choose our comparisons, After that rather shaky start, Sir Alan, I am sure that but the reality is that we have moved down the league the rest of our Committee proceedings will move more table. That is what we need to reflect on. I would not smoothly. want always to benchmark myself against the performance of the French and German economies. The Prime Minister Clause 7 sets the main rate of corporation tax at has always boasted about how we have performed better 28 per cent., but the amendment—which I also tabled in than other countries, but I do not think that that is a Committee to last year’s Finance Bill—would reduce very fruitful route to go down. that to 25 per cent. We have tabled amendment 1 for the same reasons that applied last year. We believe that the David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): headline rate of corporation tax is uncompetitive, and Is it not potentially misleading to concentrate solely on that it impacts on the UK’s attractiveness as a place to the rate of corporation tax? We have to include comparators do business. If we are to look forward to how the such as incentives, concessions, allowances and the economy will develop once the recession is over, we regulatory frameworks in other nations. The headline need to think about making sure that we are as competitive rate of corporation tax may or may not be a significant as possible when compared to other nations. factor in decisions to invest or relocate. Some may argue that now is not the time to think about reducing the headline rate of corporation tax and Mr. Hoban: The hon. Gentleman makes an important that we should focus first on the current economic and point. I do not argue that my proposal is a magic fiscal crisis, but I do not believe that we can afford to bullet—that all our problems would be dealt with overnight ignore the UK’s competitive position at this time. I shall by reducing the headline rate from 28 to 25 per cent. set out in more detail why I think that the amendment is Within the confines of the debate, I hope to touch on important and necessary and why I believe that the that briefly later in my speech. He is right: there are Committee should support it. other factors that businesses bear in mind when thinking Five years ago, Britain had the fourth lowest corporation about the location of their business. They include the tax rate in the EU. Now, even after the reduction in the predictability and certainty of the tax system, which headline rate from 30p to 28p in the 2007 Budget, we again are perceived to be weaknesses in the UK tax have the 19th lowest rate. The average in the OECD is regime. Our tax system is not seen to be as predictable 22.5 per cent., so Britain’s rate is some 5.5 per cent. and as certain is it could be. In attracting businesses to higher than that. That is something that we need to the UK and keeping in the UK those that are already address. Without a change, we are likely to find ourselves here, I am the first to accept that the amendment is not slipping further down the OECD table and putting a magic bullet. ourselves at a competitive disadvantage to other members of the OECD, the G20 and the EU. Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Is my hon. Friend, like me, concerned to see Shell, for example, Mr. Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry, North-West) (Lab): deciding to locate its headquarters and taxable operations We can take it for granted that everyone wants to reduce in Holland rather than here, because the Dutch have a taxes when they can, and no doubt we will come on to lower tax rate? Does he think that the Irish rate is 689 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 690

[Mr. John Redwood] 4pm Mr. Geoffrey Robinson: Surely the point is that when extremely attractive to many businesses thinking about we make a judgment we have to take the most meaningful an English-speaking location? Is he worried by the comparators. We could include whatever country we flight of much of our insurance industry out of this liked from across the world, if we took what the hon. country for tax reasons? Gentleman says literally and took it to its logical yet absurd conclusion. Surely it is therefore right to consider Mr. Hoban: My right hon. Friend makes some important the members of the G7, which are our real competitors points. I shall discuss later some of the companies that in such areas. Perhaps focusing on that at this point of have relocated from the UK to overseas jurisdictions time, when we are at a crossroads, is not the most because of tax regimes and rates. A number of Lloyds-based relevant thing to do. He has to see the matter in that insurers have moved to Bermuda, in part for regulatory context. reasons, but in part because of the rate of corporation tax in Bermuda. Canada is setting a clear policy goal of Mr. Hoban: I just think that this argument about the having the most competitive rate within the G7, because G7 is a bit sterile and a bit stale. It says that the G7 the Canadians recognise how easy it is to move from economies are the only ones that we should care about, one jurisdiction to another, particularly among English- yet we held the G20 summit in London just last month speaking countries, and how important tax is—perhaps because we recognised that the global economy is changing. following the Irish example, where a very low corporation Countries that were previously of relatively little economic tax rate was set to attract businesses into the country. importance to the world are becoming increasingly important to the shape of the global economy. We Mr. Timms rose— cannot rest on our laurels by assuming that the G7 will always remain in pole position; we cannot take that Mr. Hoban: People regard such tax policies as a way view. If that was the view that the hon. Gentleman took to gain competitive advantage and we need to bear that when he was in government, I am disappointed and in mind. When I first spoke on a Budget from the surprised at him. Dispatch Box, in 2006, when the right hon. Member for Normanton (Ed Balls) was Economic Secretary, the Stewart Hosie (Dundee, East) (SNP): I agree that the Government dismissed this issue as though it did not G7 argument is spurious. Workers in my constituency matter. I thought that that was a disappointing, short- have recently lost their jobs to Hungary and China. We sighted view of the importance of tax to attracting will never compete with those countries on wage costs, businesses to the UK. The present Financial Secretary but does the hon. Gentleman not agree that a reduction is much more aware of these matters and I expect us to in corporation tax simply helps to create a competitive discuss some of the reforms to the taxation of foreign package? It would at least make it a tough decision, and profits later. The Government have been slow on the not an easy choice, for boards of directors to move their uptake, however, which has damaged our competitiveness. businesses elsewhere. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman wished to Mr. Hoban: The hon. Gentleman makes an important intervene earlier. Does he wish to do so now? point about his experience of jobs in his constituency moving to China and Hungary. There may be situations Mr. Timms: I am grateful for the invitation. The hon. in which we cannot compete with such economies, but Gentleman was getting on to firmer ground when he we should make sure that we have the best possible talked about comparisons with other G7 countries. I competitive environment—an environment that will think that he will acknowledge that, since 1997, the UK encourage businesses to invest in the UK, and ensure has had the lowest corporation tax rate in the G7. that businesses based in the UK see our tax system as a reason for being here. Mr. Hoban: But Canada has stated a clear ambition in that respect, and our competitors are to be found Kerry McCarthy (Bristol, East) (Lab): The right hon. outside the G7 as well. The very fact that we have had to Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) drew a expand to the G20 demonstrates the importance of comparison with Ireland. During my time on the Treasury other nations as competitors to the UK. Committee, its Conservative members frequently made comparisons with Ireland; they said that its tax rates Let me give a few examples of countries with lower and deregulation were important pull factors for companies tax rates than ours. My right hon. Friend the Member that chose to locate there, or that it was always a threat for Wokingham(Mr. Redwood) referred to the Netherlands, that they would locate there. Given the economic situation where the corporate income tax rate is 25.5 per cent. in Ireland—businesses are closing down and leaving Norway and Sweden are in line with us, but Canada—a that country—is it really a valid comparison? Is that member of the G7—has a rate of 19.5 per cent.; our really the model that we should look to? Does that position in the G7 is therefore under threat from Canada. point not shore up what my colleagues on the Labour Within the EU, the Czech Republic, one of the new Benches have been saying—that we should be making a accession states, has a rate of 21 per cent., and Portugal, comparison with members of the G7 and our real Greece, Denmark and Austria all have a rate of 25 per competitors, such as France and Germany, instead? cent. Although the rate in Germany is a central Government rate, clearly there are federal rates, too. The headline Mr. Hoban: Labour Members say, “The Irish economy rate in Germany is 15.83 per cent. There are a range of has collapsed, so we should throw out the idea that low views. We can pick and choose, but the general picture tax rates and a proportionate regulatory environment is that we have moved backwards, not ahead, in the are means by which to achieve economic growth.” I league tables; that is the point that we want to make. know that that is a seductive argument, but part of the 691 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 692 problem for the Irish economy, as I understand it, is has grown. There has been a free flow of capital and that because of the euro there were low interest rates people into London, which has made it a successful when the economy was booming. There was an asset centre. The fact that businesses are prepared to move to price bubble in Ireland, which has burst, as it burst in this country means that— the UK. Some of Ireland’s problems flow from that, rather than from the fact that it has a low corporation Mr. Jeremy Browne (Taunton) (LD) rose— tax rate or a particular regulatory environment. Mr. Hoban: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman wishes to We have to be careful to understand correctly the add his support to the point I am making. causes of success in Ireland, and the cause of its current economic problems. I would argue that its problems Mr. Jeremy Browne: I share the hon. Gentleman’s have to do with the macro economy, and the way in enthusiasm for the notion that the hon. Member for which the euro does not necessarily meet the needs of Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) should serve every economy in the eurozone—a point that my right on the Public Bill Committee, but I would be interested hon. and hon. Friends would very much recognise. I to hear him develop his response to the intervention. suspect that even the Government recognise that point Even if we were minded to support the amendment, from time to time; that is probably why we are not in the there would be cost implications, so given that we have a euro. The convergence criteria have yet to be met, even budget deficit of £175 billion, is the hon. Gentleman if they are still being measured over in the Treasury. confident that that cost gap can be bridged, and does he anticipate that the extra industry of the type that the Kerry McCarthy: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) the regulatory environment in Ireland is not a factor in often describes in these debates will be sufficient to its economic problems? generate the extra revenue to make up the shortfall identified by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, Mr. Hoban: I am not sure that it is the main cause, South-West? which is the asset price bubble that built up because credit was cheap, thus enabling people to borrow, pushing Mr. Hoban: I had forgotten that we had the voice of up prices in the housing market. That is exactly what fiscal conservatism to the left of our Benches. has happened in the UK. We have a solution in macro- I will, as I said earlier, return to the issue of costs. prudential regulation and in giving the Bank of England However, I have not yet addressed the issue of whether greater control over the amount of debt in the economy, we are dependent on an increase in tax revenue flowing which will tackle issues relevant to the asset price bubble from a reduction in corporation tax to fill the gap. We at a time when inflation rates are lower. The hon. Lady have not factored that into our costings—that would be may be right to identify the lack of macro-prudential a windfall to accounts. My right hon. Friend the Member regulation as a weakness in the Irish economy, but it is a for Wokingham is a great proponent of the Laffer weakness, too, in our economy, which is why reform is curve, but I am a bit more cautious than him about its needed. impact and banking those gains, as it were, at this point. I would rather have a cost-neutral package of reform—and Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): I I will explain how we will fill the gap in a minute—than am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his usual generosity presume that we would get an instant flow of tax in giving way. revenues. As the fiscal environment improves, I hope These are difficult issues, but from looking at the that that means that more companies will want to come figures in the Red Book, I would imagine that the to the UK, which will strengthen the flow of tax revenues Treasury has taken corporate relocation into account, to the Exchequer. Goodness knows, we need it at the so if the amendment were accepted, tax revenues in the moment. United Kingdom would drop by £3.7 billion, as a rough estimate. Why is the hon. Gentleman not pursuing the Mr. Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): I thank my hon. logic of his position in going for the OECD average of Friend for his generosity in giving way. Clearly, our 22.5 per cent. corporation tax which, again on those financial problems are spread over more than one year, figures, would cut corporation tax revenues in the UK so a lower rate sends a signal. One would hope to keep by £6.8 billion? Where is the money coming from? companies in the UK, or encourage them to relocate to the UK, so that they would pay tax over three or four Mr. Hoban: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for years. One year, if the figures are out, will not make raising the issue of costs, and I shall tackle it within the much difference, but it will make a difference if a narrow confines of our debate. I think that that was his company is here for three or four years. first contribution to the Committee of the whole House, but he has featured in previous Finance Bill Committees, Mr. Hoban: Indeed. A big part of the issue is sending bringing his detailed knowledge of explanatory notes to a clear signal about what a tax regime’s direction of the fore. I hope that he will be tempted by the usual travel should be. One of the criticisms that people could channels to serve on the Public Bill Committee again, make of the Government is that, at times, there has because we missed him last year. It would be nice to see been a lack of clarity about that direction of travel. I him again this year, taking part in debate on probably shall touch on that in my remarks on clause 8. the last substantive Finance Bill before the general election. Mr. Jeremy Browne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman It is important that we have a competitive rate of for giving way once more, and I am sorry for interrupting corporation tax. One of the great strengths of the UK is his flow. He said that the additional location or additional that we have an open economy, which is the basis on output of businesses were not factored into his financial which the City of London, the global financial centre, calculations, so he has still not answered the hon. Member 693 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 694

[Mr. Jeremy Browne] point raised by the hon. Member for North-West Leicestershire (David Taylor): the issue is not only the for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris), who rate but other aspects of the tax regime. I remind made two points. The first was that, in his estimate, the Members of what Mr. Lambert said: cost would be £6 billion and he asked where the “increasing complexity and a lack of certainty are all contributing Conservative party would find that money; the second to declining tax competitiveness.” was to ask why the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) This theme has emerged elsewhere—it does not just did not follow the logic of his own argument and reduce come from the CBI. Last year, the City of London the rate to 22.5 per cent. I am thinking particularly of corporation published a report, “The Impact of Taxation the first point: if there is not going to be extra industry on Financial Services Business Location Decisions”, and growth to bridge the gap, how does the hon. which discussed how “sticky” London is with regard to Gentleman propose to finance it? business staying put in spite of the tax regime, not because of it. It compared the UK’s corporate tax Mr. Hoban: I am just getting going on the amendment. regime with those of other financial jurisdictions, and I have said to both the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, found that the UK had among the worst scores in two South-West (Rob Marris) and the hon. Member for categories: “Certainty of Interpretation” and “Attitude Taunton (Mr. Browne) that I will come to that point. I and Approach”. am not using a debating or rhetorical device to avoid answering the questions, but I want to deal with the issue in sequence. I ask them both to be patient; the day 4.15 pm is still young. There is a growing consensus that says, yes, rates are important, but it is not just about rates. In a report Rob Marris: We’ve got all night. commissioned by the Mayor of London—

Mr. Hoban: Indeed—we literally have all night. Let Rob Marris: Which one? me continue to make the case for why it is important for us to deal with the issue. Mr. Hoban: It is very clear who the Mayor of London As I was saying, our economy is an open one. Businesses is. [Interruption.] If I meant the lord mayor, I would choose to locate here; we have few barriers to prevent refer to the lord mayor of the City of London. them from doing that, and few that prevent them from [Interruption.] I am not sure that the previous Mayor moving offshore. Because we are so open, we cannot tax would have been that interested in the tax regime, businesses on the basis that they have no choice but to whereas I think that Boris Johnson is a bit more interested stay here. The evidence has shown that businesses move. in the competitive position of London compared with During the period covering the last Finance Bill, when other jurisdictions. we debated the same issue, companies such as United The executives interviewed for that report concluded Business Media, Shire, Kraft, Experian and Google had that the UK’s reputation for predictable, competitive moved outside the UK. To pick up on the point made and constructively applied taxation is in decline, and by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham, the call was for a strategic policy on corporation tax. since then, Beazley, a Lloyd’s of London insurer; WPP, the advertising giant; Regus, which provides office services; David Taylor rose— Henderson, a major fund manager; and Charter, an engineering company have all done the same. The fact Mr. Hoban: I happily give way before moving on to that they constitute a broad spectrum of businesses the favourite topic of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, from a wide range of industries is telling. South-West—Canada. We have had warnings. Richard Lambert, the director general of the CBI, said: David Taylor: When a detailed analysis was done in “In today’s world of global markets, companies have many 2006, it was found that the de facto corporation tax rate more choices to make about where to invest their capital and their for larger companies in the UK was not 30 per cent., the talent than they did in the past. Business tax is one of the most official rate at the time, but 22.5 per cent. because of important considerations that firms have to take into account, the activities of avoidance vehicles and companies. Is and it is easily measured…business leaders believe the UK’s the hon. Gentleman reassured by their ingenuity? If this corporate tax regime is more burdensome than it was five years is such a crushing burden on British industry, why do ago, and that this is making the UK less attractive as an international the majority of FTSE 100 companies pay no tax, or business location. nugatory amounts, and did so even before the recession The worry is that on current trends our position relative to reduced their profit base? other developed economies will deteriorate further over the next two or three years.” Mr. Hoban: The hon. Gentleman had an Adjournment Mr. Lambert made that statement in 2006. Time moved debate on this issue last week when we were debating on, but the CBI returned to the same point last year in the Second Reading of the Finance Bill; I am sorry that its publication “UK business tax: a compelling case for I could not listen to his remarks. There is an issue about change”, which concluded: the tax take and what a tax gap is. One comment made “Comparatively high tax rates, increasing complexity and a about research by the TUC is that it does not take into lack of certainty are all contributing to declining tax competitiveness.” account some of structural reliefs that are in place in The report called for a more strategic approach to the UK tax system. It is important that companies pay corporation tax. So the voices making the point are not the tax they are due to pay and do so promptly and only those of Conservative Members; people in industry fairly. However, we live in a complex global economy. are also making it. Richard Lambert touched on the Several of the companies listed in the FTSE 100 are not 695 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 696 necessarily UK trading companies, so they will be subject Mr. Timms: The hon. Gentleman is extolling, I think, to a different tax regime. It is a difficult comparison to the advantages of a country having the lowest corporation make. Just as the hon. Member for Coventry, North-West tax rate in the G7. Is he now confirming that he believes, (Mr. Robinson) picked holes in my analysis of where we contrary to what he said earlier, that that is a good are in relation to the OECD, some would pick holes in thing? an analysis of the tax gap. It is not as clear-cut as people would suggest. Mr. Hoban: I am not taking a position on where we should be in the league tables. I am saying that other Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) countries are looking at how they can use their headline (LD): I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman is rate of corporation tax as a tool, to use the words from saying about complexity and differences in the tax Canada, to system. Before he moves on to Canada, can he expand on why he chose not to extend his proposed cut to “improve productivity, employment and prosperity in an uncertain ring-fenced profits and to apply it only to non-ring-fenced world”. profits? I declare an interest as a shareholder in Shell, I am not suggesting that a target should be set for the and an interest in North sea investments through my UK’s headline rate of corporation tax; I am just pointing constituency and my membership of the offshore oil out to the Committee that it is an important tool that and gas industry all-party group. countries use to attract and retain businesses. We must be mindful of that when thinking about overall tax Mr. Hoban: The hon. Gentleman makes an important policy in the UK. point. When I thought about the amendment’s impact, I believe that there is a consensus on this issue. The I considered whether it should deal with changing the Prime Minister said last year at the Institute of Directors ring-fenced profits rate as well, but I was conscious that conference: that might take me into a new field of argument about oil taxation, which my hon. Friend the Member for “Our aim is to reduce corporation tax even further when we can afford to do so...and we’re looking at how we’re going to Hammersmith and Fulham (Mr. Hands) will deal with do it.” in Committee. There is a complex set of interactions for us to discuss carefully, but I wanted a narrowly framed I shall come to how we can pay for that in a second, but amendment to avoid detaining the Committee for too I shall wait until the hon. Member for Taunton returns long. to his place so that he can hear that bit of fiscal prudence. I turn to Canada, which the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West mentions quite often. He The Financial Secretary might remark that the prayed it in aid in relation to VAT in last week’s debate Government have taken some measures to reform the on the Bill. I do not know whether he has seen Canada’s taxation of foreign profits. I acknowledge that, although aspiration for corporation tax rates, which was highlighted it has not been an entirely straightforward process and in the report produced by Bob Wigley for Boris Johnson. the Government have had a couple of consultations to It stated that Canada’s mission statement on tax was attempt to get the right structure in place. The sense that: from industry is that that is now broadly in place, but no “To improve productivity, employment and prosperity in an one should say, “The job is done, we have dealt with this uncertain world, a bold, new tax reduction initiative will reduce issue, let’s move on to something else.”The listed publishing the general federal corporate income tax rate to 15 per cent. by group Informa moved its tax domicile from London to 2012 from its current rate of 22.1 per cent. The general corporate Switzerland not long after the Budget, once it knew income tax rate will decline by 7.12 percentage points between broadly what the shape of the taxation of foreign 2007 and 2012—giving Canada the lowest overall tax rate on new profits would be. We therefore cannot afford to rest on business investment in the Group of Seven (G7) by 2011 and the lowest statutory tax rate in the G7 by 2012.” our laurels in any way, and that is why I tabled the amendment. That is a very clear statement of intent from the Canadian Government about the direction of travel, and I am Given the Government’s dire fiscal position, I appreciate sure that people thinking about the relocation of businesses that the room for manoeuvre is limited. When borrowing will take it into account. this year is £175 billion and next year’s forecast is for £173 billion, there is not much money left in the kitty to cut the burden of taxes. That is why the package we Mr. Timms: For completeness, will the hon. Gentleman propose today is cost-neutral. We have long made it confirm that the separate provinces of Canada charge clear that our reforms to the headline rate of corporation additional tax? tax, reducing it from 28 per cent. to 25 per cent., will be funded by simplifying reliefs and allowances. [Interruption.] Mr. Hoban: Indeed, and that is why I carefully quoted Right on time, the hon. Member for Taunton returns. the report, pointing out that the quotation related to We will bring the rate of capital allowances more closely the general federal rate. The report flags up the scale of into line with the accounting measure for depreciation, the reduction—7 percentage points—in the federal rate which is meant to reflect the deterioration in value of of tax. The Canadian Government believe that that will assets over their life. That is how we will fund the provide the lowest overall rate of tax on new business package of reforms. We set out that position clearly investment in the G7, which is a clear statement of when we announced the policy, and we will continue to direction. In thinking about how economies move out use that approach of funding changes in the headline of recession and plan for the future, countries that can rate of corporation tax by simplifying the tax system afford such tax changes will think very carefully about and trying to align the accounting and tax definitions of making them. profit more closely. 697 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 698

Rob Marris: I am rather bemused by the hon. 4.30 pm Gentleman’s explanation of the cost-neutrality, which Mr. Hoban: According to some examples, the general makes it sound as though the amendment were mere plant and machinery capital allowance will be about window-dressing. It will not remove any tax burden on 12.5 per cent., and the long-life plant and machinery UK-based businesses if, taken as a whole, the package is capital allowance will be about 6 per cent., bringing cost-neutral, with counter-balancing increases from the them more closely into line with the accounting rates of business sector. It sounds like grandstanding and window- depreciation. dressing. Mr. Geoffrey Robinson: Bringing those allowances Mr. Hoban: The hon. Gentleman cannot have it both into line with depreciation is no good at all. That means ways. He must either accept that our proposal is a we will barely be investing at the replacement level, funded tax package, or believe that it is grandstanding, which was one of the big problems with the old General which will do nothing for business. He can criticise us Electric Company.Tight though Lord Weinstock’s controls for one or the other, but just one at a time. were, investment often ran at less than the depreciation rate. Manufacturing is a bit more in the spotlight now— rightly so, I think, and not just because I represent a Rob Marris: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his manufacturing constituency in Coventry, in the west generosity in giving way.On the projections for corporation midlands—and it is regaining importance, given the tax this year—I do not say he accepts those figures—the imbalance that the collapse in the financial sector has amendment would cost the Exchequer £3.7 billion. If caused, which we need to remove. However, having a he proposes a cost-neutral package, the £3.7 billion will target to drive capital investment down to the level of be raised from businesses through other mechanisms—for depreciation is a suicidal policy. example, changes in allowances. How would the amendment, as part of such an overall package, have The Chairman: Order. We are beginning to lose track any effect on whether a company decided to relocate to of who is making the speech and who is making an Switzerland? A company would examine the total tax intervention. Let us try to keep interventions in proportion. burden, including allowances, not simply the headline rate of corporation tax. Mr. Hoban: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his rather lengthy intervention, because it enabled me to find a quotation. I will not hold a competition with Mr. Hoban: I do not agree and I shall explain why. hon. Members afterwards to see whether they know The hon. Gentleman argues that there is a clear relationship who the author was; rather, I will tell them. The quotation between businesses that pay corporation tax and those says: that benefit from capital allowances. He claims that “Promote investment and growth—by…reducing tax-driven they are alike in their profile, but I do not think that distortions on commercial activity, ensuring that business decisions that is the case. The headline rate sends a powerful are based on commercial rather than tax considerations; stimulating signal to business about the advantages of locating in higher levels of foreign and domestic investment through a lower the UK. Perhaps some businesses are not interested in CT rate on a broader tax base”. capital allowances; that depends on the nature of the That is a good summary of our policy. What particularly business—on whether it is service-oriented or invests pleases me about that quotation is that it is from the more in capital equipment. There is a mixture of incentives, Treasury, from a document entitled “Business tax reform: and there will be some winners and losers. However, it is capital allowance changes”, a technical note from December important to send a signal about the direction of travel. 2007. Clearly, the debate has moved on since the hon. There is no money available for tax cuts, so a funded Gentleman was sat around the table watching TV with package is the sensible way to send the right signal to the former Chancellor—wherever he watched TV. business about the importance to us of the UK tax That is why I said what I said earlier, when I teased system’s remaining competitive. Government Members about there being a consensus on the issue. The Treasury recognises the power of the argument. Indeed, the hon. Member for North-West Mr. Geoffrey Robinson: The debate is interesting. As Leicestershire (David Taylor), who is a great campaigner the hon. Gentleman said, we often had it in the Treasury, against the tax gap, will be very concerned about distortions and the headline rate seems attractive. However, as my in the tax system that led to particular types of behaviour. hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West I just think that the hon. Member for Coventry, North-West (Rob Marris) said, the tax burden remains the same. should be a little more careful not to state the Government’s Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the massive case too boldly. impact of £3.7 billion a year on capital allowances? It cannot simply be dismissed as a compensating factor. Stewart Hosie: Is there not a slight paradox, given the The problem with much of British industry, particularly argument being made? Only last year, there were significant the manufacturing sector, is the UK’s persistent tendency changes to plant and machinery allowances and a massive to under-invest in capital. Increasingly, we say that we reduction in industrial buildings allowances, which was will have cheaper and more flexible labour and we chase commented on at the time. I am pretty sure that the that market down, but it does not get us anywhere. Let arguments made by the Government on that occasion us consider what the Germans have done. Germany is were rather different from those that we have heard this the biggest exporter in the world. Its manufacturing afternoon. sector is strong because of its continuing capital investment in its industry. By how much would the £3.7 billion a Mr. Hoban: Indeed. I am pleased that the hon. year reduce capital allowances? Has the hon. Gentleman Gentleman, who is a fellow veteran of previous Finance taken that into account? Can he give us that figure? Bill Committee proceedings, has reminded me of that. 699 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 700

We have had debates in Committee about reformed yield benefits to the economy as a whole and make it capital allowances before. The Financial Secretary and more attractive to inward investment. Companies’ I had a debate about the abolition of the industrial compliance costs would also be reduced, and my old buildings and agricultural buildings allowances. employer, PricewaterhouseCoopers, might not get quite [Interruption.] The Minister says from a sedentary the same revenue flow from tax planning as it had in the position, “Youwere against it.” We argued that the issue past. That might be a price worth paying, however. should be explored in more detail—so that the competitive I have spoken for rather longer than I hoped to, but impact could be considered—and that the Government the Committee will be pleased to know that I have had rushed into things without proper thought. almost completed my remarks on this subject. It is There are issues on both sides of the argument, important for Britain’s competitive position in the global although I take on board the important comment that economy that we have a corporation tax regime that is the hon. Member for Coventry, North-West made about fit for purpose. Part of that can be achieved through manufacturing. I know from my experience of visiting tackling complexity, improving predictability and certainty, manufacturing companies in my constituency that compete and having a proper consultation process in place. A at the top end, producing high value-added items that fundamental part of the package, however, is to reduce compete with the best—that is, if they are not the best the headline rate of corporation tax. in the world themselves—that there is a mixture of The amendment is part of a package that would plant in those operations. There are some very old, ensure that the measure was cost-neutral. Regrettably, I faithful bits of kit in those factories, as well as some cannot table amendments that would increase the tax very new, modern equipment. It has been pointed out take, so I cannot propose the flipside to this package, that the life of some of the more modern pieces is quite which would change capital allowances. However, we short, in relation to their contribution to the top end of have set out a clear package of measures to reform manufacturing, and that they might therefore require a corporation tax, in order to improve the competitiveness shorter depreciation period and a steeper write-off. We of the UK economy. As we look beyond the recession, need to think about that. we need to ensure that we are competitive not only with I do not wish to stray too far from the subject, the G7 but with other global economies, so as to make Sir Alan, but one issue that has emerged from the the best of the advantages that we have, to broaden the economic crisis is the need to broaden the base of base of the economy and to bring wealth and prosperity British business, and manufacturing is important in back to the UK. that regard. We must be mindful of that. We are not blind to the concerns expressed by the hon. Member for Mr. Geoffrey Robinson: Having been lucky enough to Coventry, North-West, but we do not want to see distortion catch your eye, Sir Alan, I wish briefly to revert to the in the tax system. question of effectively reducing the capital allowances, which would come into effect in year 1. Given the Mr. Geoffrey Robinson: Distortion in the tax system recession and its likely progression, immediate cash- is one thing, and we have had the arguments about benefit to companies is the very thing we need at the neutrality. I am sorry that I was not at the previous moment. Despite the seeming good news today, I think meetings of the Committee. May I just plead that we do we all know that we are still in a precarious position not build into Conservative thinking the idea that the and should not take anything for granted. The real Treasury or the Department for Business, Enterprise need is for cash flows to companies now, so reducing and Regulatory Reform have ever had the policy—which capital allowances at this point in time would hit the the hon. Gentleman is now adopting—of reducing capital very thing we need for the future, which is investment. allowances down to the bare minimum of depreciation? The timing is particularly perverse. That cannot be a proper theoretical or practical position Apart from the wrong timing, we would be hitting the to take up. very area where we are already weakest, and the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban), who led for the Mr. Hoban: This is about trying to reduce distortions Opposition, should realise that. We already have a in the tax system to ensure that decisions are not being relatively low depreciation charge, which arises directly driven by tax considerations. The rate of the capital from the fact that our manufacturing sector is weak allowance is a cash flow issue. Over the life of an asset, a compared to our main competitors in exports and business will get full relief on that asset, assuming that world markets—India and China, for example, are taking it uses it until it is scrapped. It is a question of timing as the lead on many consumer goods. Where we have to to when that relief arises. I am sure that, at a later stage compete, we already have a low depreciation charge in Committee, we shall have a debate about the 40 per arising from our relative under-investment over the cent. first-year allowance being introduced in the Bill. years, so driving it down still further would hit the very Perhaps such a measure is right in a crisis, but for the sector that most of our policies should be directed at purposes of the long-term reform and simplification of improving. corporation tax, we need to look at reducing the distortions in the system. Mr. Redwood: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the In so doing, we should consider reducing the headline parlous plight of British manufacturing today means rate of corporation tax. That would send a clear message that a very large number of otherwise very good companies to businesses, which are fed up with the complexity and are loss-making, so his case in the short term falls? distortions in the tax system. A lot of the tax planning that takes place is a consequence of the distortions that Mr. Robinson: If they are loss-making, they are not are built in to encourage particular types of behaviour. going to benefit from a reduction in corporation tax. A less complex, more straightforward system would That is the whole point. They are losing money in part 701 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 702

[Mr. Geoffrey Robinson] Quite rightly, it is not legal for a company to fiddle its transfer prices by suppressing profit in a high-tax regime because of under-investment but mainly because of the in order to allow the transfer of that profit to a low-tax world situation. The right hon. Gentleman has, surprisingly, regime by artificial means. Under this and previous made precisely my point for me. In the short term, those Governments, the Treasury has rightly adopted methods companies will not benefit from any reduction in of preventing or stopping that practice. It is, however, corporation tax, so we should be trying to get them an entirely legitimate business strategy for a multinational what they need by securing money for them from the with factories, service areas and operational centres various schemes that have been announced. Of course, I around the world to decide where, at any given time, it is am the first to acknowledge, in front of the Secretary of best to allocate particular types of business. Obviously, State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform, if a multinational has footloose business of a high- that we have been slow to get those schemes off the technology, high-value-added, high-growth kind which ground. The Conservative party offers no help, however, will produce a high margin and plenty of profit, it will by suggesting that we have £50 billion in our pockets look very carefully at the effective and, especially, the and that it be should doled out to anybody who wants headline tax rates around the world. All other things it. That is not serious. being equal, it may then decide to put more of its I put it to the hon. Member for Fareham that what he high-value, high-profit business into the parts of the proposes is wrong. I accept that getting the headline world that offer the most competitive headline rates. rate down is important, and the first thing we did in government, if the hon. Gentleman remembers, was to introduce a whole range of tax changes, including moving 4.45 pm to a new system of corporation tax and other measures. I am sure that, in their saner moments, Treasury Of course, we reduced the headline rate of corporation Ministers agree that that is the case. They know that it tax—it was the first thing we did in our first Budget. I happens and that it is a real possibility now, which is do not underestimate the importance of that, but it is one of the additional reasons why I think my hon. important that we send the right signal and timing is so Friend the Member for Fareham is right to press them important. It is no good sending a signal at the wrong again on whether they are certain that 28 per cent. is a time. No one is coming here to invest at the moment. sufficiently competitive rate at a time when the whole However well we are doing in other respects, the important world is hungry for jobs and for higher-technology and thing is to get money to the worst-hit sector at the high-value-added business, and when there is not enough moment, which is manufacturing. business to go round and there are not enough jobs to I highlight the manufacturing sector, because, despite go round. the dire forecasts of the City of London—the right hon. It is true that our debate takes place against the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) knows far background of a sharp devaluation of the pound. Such more about that than I will ever know; indeed, he has a devaluation has many drawbacks. It makes us all probably forgotten far more than I will ever know, and poorer, and it pushes up inflation—although it has one probably to his own benefit—comparatively speaking, important advantage in that it makes our industrial and the City has not been so badly hit. Not yet, at any rate, service activity much more competitive in the short so the losses are occurring where they always occur—in term from a British base, which I trust will limit the my own area, that of my hon. Friend the Member for damage in Britain compared with that in some of our Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) and that of competitor economies. However, we need to think beyond my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, the one-off impact of the devaluation. We need to think Enterprise and Regulatory Reform—[Interruption.] Yes, beyond the present trough of the recession. We cannot in the area of my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, be sure how long it will take, but there will be recovery, North (Mr. Winnick), too. and we need to ask ourselves that fundamental question: In sum, now is the wrong time and this is the wrong is 28 per cent. a sufficiently competitive rate at the target. The Conservatives should reconsider and put off present time? their proposal. In fact, I know that their proposal to reduce capital gains is not remotely serious—it is a The hon. Member for Coventry, North-West talking-point, and quite a good one in a way. However, I (Mr. Robinson) rightly pointed out that the present believe, Sir Alan, that now is not the time and what is Government had continued the previous Government’s offered is directed at the wrong target. The amendment policy of cutting the headline rate. That was very sensible, should not be pressed and we should not accept it. but I think that they got stuck. I do not think that they realised how rapidly the rest of the world had moved on. In the opening exchanges today, my hon. Friend the Mr. Redwood: I am a director of two companies, as Member for Fareham was asked if he recognised that declared in the Register of Members’ Interests, but I all that we needed was one of the more competitive wish to make some general remarks about the tax rates in the G7, and that if we had it we would be all system. right. Of course we will not be all right. The world has My hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) been completely transformed. The Prime Minister accepted has been quite right to say that a lower headline rate of that in hosting and chairing the G20. The serious tax could be very important in attracting more business competitive threat to keeping manufacturing in Britain to this country. I think he could have added that it will or attracting it to Britain today comes primarily from also affect the judgments of quite a lot of multinational China and India. It is a serious option for most businesses that already have some representation in multinational companies to switch production from the Britain but have options over where they could carry United Kingdom or Germany to China or India. Most out their various activities. multinational companies already have several factories 703 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 704 in those countries, as well as having manufacturer capability many of them did—and it makes a huge difference to in Britain, Germany, the United States or some combination their forecast cash flows on an investment if they are of all three. keeping 90 per cent. of them rather than only 70 or The proposal that we are discussing goes to the heart 72 per cent. of them with the rest going to the Government. of that issue. Why are we talking about the headline The Financial Secretary is a clever man, and he knows rate? Because it is the headline rate that people usually the power of compound arithmetic. The compound use in their simulations, models and forecasts when effects of taxing at 10 per cent. are so much more benign considering where to put their future investment. They than the compound effects of taxing at 28 per cent. also look at the underlying trend of policy. If, as in I do have one, friendly, disagreement with my Canada, it is clearly a commitment to make the current Conservative Front-Bench colleagues in that I believe rate the maximum and to say that in future it will be that the Laffer curve works—they are sitting up and reduced, that will be a fairly influential factor when it taking notice, Sir Alan. I am trying to make our lives comes to the judgment on the back of the numbers. If easier, because I believe that this is one of those rare people see a Government who face a monumental deficit cases where we can have our cake and eat it. I believe and who seem to think that it is only possible to secure that if a country is brave enough to set a lower tax rate, more tax revenue by raising tax rates—itself a very as the Irish were in spades, it can attract a huge extra dubious argument, in my view—they may well say to amount of business, because world business is very themselves that the Government could not be bothered footloose and very sensitive to the individual tax rates to cut the rate below 28 per cent. although they knew on offer. The Irish moved from being a lot poorer than that 28 per cent. was no longer particularly competitive, the United Kingdom to being a lot richer. At the same and that in a year’s time they, or some other Government, time, they moved from spending less per head to being might be forced to put the rate up. That is not a good able to spend a lot more on public services because the background against which to make an investment judgment. low rates brought in so much more revenue. Such low I urge Treasury Ministers to think again. I urge them rates can therefore have an extremely benign effect, but to understand that our prime competitors have much there is also the reverse effect: if a country allows itself lower tax rates than ours, as well as having lower to become too uncompetitive on the headline rate, it remuneration and other competitive advantages. I urge discovers that even putting it up does not solve its them to understand that the big investment players in revenue problem, but can actually make the revenue manufacturing in this world already have capacity around problem worse. the world, and the ability to switch. I also urge them to understand that we are talking about not just where the Fortunately, so far, although we have had a run of new factory goes, but where the work is allocated around companies leaving the country, such departures have the different factories of the world, and that if we allow been paced out and the Government have managed to our country to be perceived as more hostile to business—less suppress a lot of bad commentary on that, but I suggest competitive in tax and regulatory terms—we will start to them that they should not push their luck any further. to be on the wrong end of business judgments. The My hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) people in the American, Japanese or Chinese multinational produced a partial list of those companies that have will start to say, “Well, we’ll leave the old, low value-added, gone. There are others as well, and in certain sectors, less profitable business in Britain because of the tax such as insurance, it is becoming a rush to get to the exit rate,” and that means that Britain will lose jobs rather on time. The situation could be the same for some of than create them, and that, in the end, the British plant the higher charging investment management companies, will be the one most likely to face the closure notice one of which my hon. Friend mentioned. This is a because—surprise, surprise—it has the worst business serious problem for the United Kingdom. To those on and then it has the worst figures. The people in the the Labour Benches who say, “Well, we don’t want to multinationals will forget that the reason why that particular keep those sorts of businesses if they’re that sensitive to country has less good factory results is because, for tax the tax rate and do not want to pay their fair due”, I say reasons, they chose to locate a less profitable business in that that is a very short-sighted view. Businesses are, on it. Therefore, if countries are not careful, they can find the whole, motivated by profit and money as well as by that they are on a very slippery slope indeed. wishing to serve the public, but they know they have to serve the public well to generate the revenues—that is In today’s exchanges, we have already heard Labour the deal—and if we are too cavalier in our approach to Members voicing scepticism about whether the setting taxing them, we do not just lose the tax revenue they of a 10 per cent. rate in Ireland was the reason why so were paying in terms of corporation tax, but we lose the much business was attracted there. I can assure Labour tax revenue they were paying in terms of the tax on their Members that, from conversations I have had on account employees, the national insurance and the VAT on the of my work on the policy review and for other purposes, money their employees would have spent in the shops. it is clear that the low headline rate of corporation tax We lose a great deal of tax revenue if we become too has probably been the number one attraction to footloose cavalier about where businesses are to be located. international businesses in choosing to go to the Republic of Ireland. They did not go there for the European The case is very straightforward: cutting the rate Union grants; most of those were paid to agriculture, from 28 per cent. to 25 per cent. would send a very which was not a particularly successful sector. They did strong signal to our international competitors and, not go there to join the euro either, because they have to more importantly, to international manufacturing investors deal in a multi-currency world and what matters to that this country is serious about remaining tax competitive. them is the rate into the dollar, the renminbi and the I hope that my Front-Bench colleagues agree that a rupee, so the euro is not that important. What mattered change to 25 per cent. is the minimum that we need to to them was that they assumed that they would run do and that it is not the final resting place. I would be profitable businesses—and for quite a lot of years, much happier with a rate of 20 per cent., because that 705 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 706 would make a huge statement, would catapult us back £34.7 billion. The amendment would cut corporation to being a place that people talked about as a desirable tax by three 28ths—from 28 to 25 per cent. In round location for investment and would definitely illustrate terms, three 28ths of the projected revenues of £34.7 billion the Laffer curve—one might say that one would be is £3.7 billion. If one were to cut our corporation tax “Laffing” all the way to the bank if one was to do that, rate to the OECD average, which the hon. Member for because so much more business would be attracted and Fareham helpfully informed us is 22.5 per cent., that so much more revenue would be coming in. would be a five and a half 28ths cut in £34.7 billion, As a result of these straitened times, my hon. Friend which would be a £6.8 billion cut. Now that is not the Member for Fareham says that we should be absolutely before us tonight. I suspect, from what the hon. Member sure and pay for this proposal out of removing allowances. for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) said—although he did not That is my second-best option—I would rather just cut say so directly—that he would not pursue the logic of the rate—but it makes more sense than doing nothing, his position and seek to put the UK at the average rate because it does take the trick on the headline rate and I of the OECD, but only cut from 28 to 25 per cent. That do not believe it does the damage that the hon. Member was because he wanted a revenue-neutral package, and for Coventry, North-West (Mr. Robinson), who is no that the counter-balancing measures that he outlined to longer in his place, seemed to suggest. Past corporation make up for that loss—which I calculated at £3.7 billion, tax reforms have cut allowances and cut rates, and they although I appreciate that he does not accept that have been helpful and benign; they have usually resulted figure—would come to £3.7 billion. His countervailing in more flows of business as long as they establish a measures did not come to £6.8 billion and therefore he competitive international rate that we can work with could not go the whole hog to cut corporation tax to 22. and of which we can be proud. 5 per cent. I do not think that those on the Treasury Bench are communicating a strong enough sense of the danger to 5pm our economy that the current situation represents. Perhaps they are resting on the laurels of the devaluation and When I hear the phrase “revenue neutral”, it has the perhaps they do not understand how tough the situation same effect as the words “efficiency savings” and my is, particularly in the manufacturing heartlands. They scepticism meter starts twitching markedly— are not energetic enough in making the case within government that if we are serious about rebuilding our Mr. Redwood: Does the hon. Gentleman recall that manufacturing, we need to put in place a package of under a Conservative Government corporation tax rates measures, and this considerably lower corporation tax were cut and income tax higher rates were cut, and in headline rate would be an important first step. both cases there was a revenue surge? I would like this country to export more and make more, as that is part of the necessary process for recovery. Rob Marris: I am not saying that it cannot happen: I A lower corporation tax rate would help to do that. I do simply said that my scepticism meter starts twitching. not despise financial services. I would like us to grow Following the probing and then the speech by my and improve our financial services offering in Britain hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, North-West and keep London as a very important financial centre. (Mr. Robinson), and the measures that the hon. Member That, too, is very dependent on a very competitive for Fareham said that he was not allowed to table corporation tax regime. The Financial Secretary knows tonight, it appears that the countervailing measures to that I am not happy with the huge sums tipped into achieve the other half of this package—to make up for banks, which have grossly distorted the economy’s the lost revenues in corporation tax, were that cut to be adjustment process and have delayed the necessary enacted—are precisely the sort of measures that would adjustment in those banks. I wanted to keep them going hit manufacturing. at a much lower cost. Parenthetically, I would say to the hon. Member for Of course I did not want the banks to go bankrupt, Fareham that my understanding of the procedure of but it is a disgrace that so much money has been the House is that he could have tabled his amendments, absorbed in them. If we had not wasted all that money so that we could have seen them, but the Chairman of in the banks, even the Financial Secretary could have Ways and Means would not have selected them— afforded my 20p in the pound proposal for corporation [Interruption.] Well, there is chuckling from Conservative tax, given his view that it does not generate the extra Members, but it would have been useful to see the revenue that I believe it does. That option would have countervailing measures proposed. Instead, they were been a much better competitive package for Britain outlined by the hon. Gentleman, and from what I than losing billions in RBS and delaying the time when understand, they would hit manufacturing. The right RBS sorts itself out and actually generates some money hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) talks for British taxpayers and for the Treasury, instead of about footloose manufacturing companies, but his Front- taking away all the money that we need in order to offer Bench colleagues favour a tax regime for business that a more competitive package. I hope that the Treasury would hit manufacturing. It would be the loser under will also go away and think about squeezing some the countervailing measures and other parts of British money out of the banks to make the rest of British business would gain. As a Member of Parliament in the business profitable, rather than squeezing the rest of west midlands—my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary British business to try to buttress the banks. is in his place, and my hon. Friends the Members for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) and for Coventry, North-West Rob Marris: If one looks at table C6 on page 231 of were here earlier—the current plight of manufacturing the Red Book, one sees that the projected receipts from is a considerable concern, without changing the tax corporation tax for the financial year 2009-10 are regime in a way that would make things worse. 707 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 708

I understand the aspiration towards lower corporation that the computer writing down allowance should have tax, but the hon. Gentleman has to be careful about continued for a bit longer, until we had even more pushing the Canadian model too far. There are many computers in the economy. That allowance was very jurisdictions in Canada, and those subject to federal helpful. I urge my hon. Friends to reject the amendment, taxation are federally incorporated and make up a tiny because it is part of an overall package that would hit minority of companies, engaged in activities such as manufacturing and would be bad for British industry telecommunications and transport that, under the Canadian and bad for jobs in the west midlands. constitution from 1982 and the British North America Act 1867, are the federal preserve. Almost all business Mr. Jeremy Browne: The measure proposed by those in Canada is the provincial preserve, and the huge trade on the Conservative Front Bench is actually rather barriers between provinces are an issue that bedevils simple and modest. One would think from the attempt that country. I understand that the hon. Gentleman to draw dividing lines, as is fashionable in politics at the aspires to that model, and it does raise some money at moment, and from the length of the speech made by the the federal level, but he should not push it too far. hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) that a huge I do not accept the concept of distortion—although I point of principle was being proposed that distinguished am not sure that that is the argument that has been the Conservative party from the Government. If the made—because people change their behaviour. There is sentiments expressed by the right hon. Member for no natural way for people to behave that is somehow Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) had been the substance of then distorted, because to say that is to buy in to the the amendment, that would have been true. He made a whole nonsense about perfect competition, which never serious ideological point that distinguished between exists, even on eBay. We have taxation measures to what he thought was the best way forward for the encourage certain forms of behaviour, and some of British economy and the Government’s proposed way those behaviours are related to commercial matters, forward for the British economy. The distinction made including for example, the lack of VAT on newspapers by the amendment is not nearly as substantial and as and books, and the company car taxation regime. So, impressive. corporation tax as part of a package of taxation measures The right hon. Member for Wokingham said that will have an effect on behaviour and one must be very there was great value in cutting headline rates. I think careful about that so as not to drive business out. I there is some truth in that, although it is not always as reject any suggestion that we have perfect competition straightforward as he might think, as shown by the and that we should not intervene at all. Prime Minister’s experience in his last Budget as Chancellor We should have a capital allowance regime that of the Exchequer. He cut the headline basic rate of encourages manufacturing and capital investment, as income tax to 20p, thinking that that would be extremely my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, North-West popular and would incentivise a lot of people on low to said. I remember that a few years ago, when we had a middle incomes to do more work. It appeared not to 100 per cent. first year writing down allowance for have that effect when people realised that it was revenue- investment in computers, that measure found favour on neutral and that some would be disadvantaged as they both sides of the House, although some might have said would have to pay additional taxes to make up the that it was a distortion. I favour capital allowances that shortfall arising from the money that was lost by cutting help manufacturing and I urge Labour Members to the headline rate. Cutting headline rates is not always as reject the amendment tonight. popular as politicians and legislators might think. I was also interested in the point made by the right Mr. Hoban: The hon. Gentleman referred to the 100 hon. Member for Wokingham about the Laffer curve, per cent. first year writing down allowance for computers. although he appeared to suggest that the Laffer curve’s Did he object to its withdrawal? principal benefit is attracting investment from other countries into the jurisdiction where that applies. I Rob Marris: Yes. It was cut by this Government and I would have been more interested if he had gone on to do not think that it should have been. It should have advance the view that it would generate more money been kept for longer—that is the simple answer—because from companies within the existing area of jurisdiction. computers are used across British industry, including in He appeared to dwell less on that point, although I manufacturing. suspect that that is also his view. By way of contrast, the amendment attempts to Mr. Hoban: The hon. Gentleman is characteristically create an impression that, at this time of recession, the honest, but does he not recognise that decisions are Conservative party would like to give British companies taken to reduce allowances because they have perhaps preferable tax treatment. However, having heard the distorted behaviour or outlived themselves and changes explanation from the hon. Member for Fareham, one need to be made? We need to get people to act in a way understands that that is not the case and that the that is consistent with their economic and commercial proposal is revenue-neutral with regard to the total tax drivers rather than simply distorting behaviour for a take. For that reason, his speech could have lasted two short-term objective. minutes rather 50—he could simply have said, “This amendment seeks to redistribute but not reduce the tax Rob Marris: I will not be tempted too far down that burden on British businesses.” Given that our budget line, Sir Alan. However, I think that there is a role for deficit will be £175 billion this year and £173 billion writing down allowances and tax and capital allowances next year, and that we do not have huge amounts of to encourage certain behaviour in the economy, even surplus revenue sloshing around to use to reduce taxes, though it might be seen by some—and perhaps by the I and my party are minded to support the amendment hon. Gentleman—as a distortion. That is why I think precisely because of its modesty. 709 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 710

[Mr. Jeremy Browne] Labour Government in thinking that the overall tax burden on business is exactly right, but this modest Three principles are worth observing—[Interruption.] amendment at least advances the cause of simplicity I hear mutterings from off stage, but my point is that, and, on that basis, I see no reason to oppose it. although the ideas of the right hon. Member for Wokingham are more interesting and ideologically 5.15 pm adventurous, they would create a real distinction— something that the Conservative party wants only to Mr. Brian Binley (Northampton, South) (Con): I give an impression of doing. In a way, there is nothing declare an interest as the chairman of an SME that very interesting about the amendment. employs about 140 people and that pays well below the corporate tax rate affected by the present discussion, Mr. Redwood: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? although we are hopeful that, one day, we will get there. We do, however, service a number of companies that are Mr. Browne: I will in a moment. We are considering in the relevant tax bracket, and therein lies my interest, not how much business is taxed, but whether the burden because supply chains are a vital component of the on different aspects of business should be redistributed whole structure. in a way that renders the total tax take more reasonable. By and large, I think there is scope for collecting the I shall talk about how people think about tax as same amount of tax revenue in a more simple way, and I much as about how accountants evaluate tax. Business shall set out my three principles for doing so. Before I men tend in the main to be more creative than accountants do, however, I shall give way to the right hon. Gentleman. and they tend to dwell less on detail. It is that degree of creativity that makes the amendment interesting and it Mr. Redwood: Do I understand the hon. Gentleman is the reason why I commend it so strongly. What the correctly? Does he think—unfairly—that, because the amendment proposes would create a feeling of the proposal from my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham worth of being involved and of using money to gain (Mr. Hoban) is potty, it is now good Liberal Democrat more money and to grow on behalf of the nation, as policy? well as on behalf of the people we employ. It reflects an attitude of mind—one that is often not understood by Mr. Browne: That would have been funnier if the Government Members. timing had been better. As it was, it was a typical Many in business get the impression that Labour Back-Bench attempt to be conservatively amusing. Members think that business men are there to make The Conservative party believes it is here to argue the profit and that that undertaking is in some way dubious—or case for British business. That is reasonable, but it is even, some of the worst sort of that thinking suggests, trying to create the impression that it wants to cut the crooked. In fact, many business men are there to create, tax burden on British business. In reality, though, it to build and to grow, and that very objective is the does not want to do anything of the sort, and that is driving force that creates jobs in this country. Therein why I said that the amendment could have been dealt lies the importance of the amendment: it would encourage with rather more quickly. Had the Opposition proposed creativity, which in turn encourages jobs. That is a vital from the Front Bench the measures articulated by the part of the process in which we need to be engaged right right hon. Member for Wokingham, that would have now if we are take advantage of the green shoots that been worth debating all of today and tomorrow because will appear, as my right hon. Friend the Member for it would have represented a massive change in economic Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) and my hon. Friend the and tax policy. However, that is not what the Conservatives Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) have said. When are trying to do: they are trying to give that impression, those green shoots appear, we need to be in a position to but they are not really trying to achieve that. exploit them to the advantage of our nation. High Even so, for the reasons that I am about to outline, I taxation in any form does not help us to do that. think the amendment is probably a step in the right Another point touched on by my right hon. Friend is direction. The first principle that I think ought to the need to attract to this country businesses and big govern these matters is stability. Stability is beneficial: companies from other nations. I am amazed by the the Government have kept the rate unchanged, and that arguments advanced by some Government Members, is a reasonable step in the right direction. It would help who seem to think that our real opponents are Germany if they gave an indication of how long the rate will be and France—that those countries should be our kept at that level. I realise that future Finance Bills and comparators and that, as long as we are lined up general elections make it harder for them to give a firm relatively sensibly with them, the world is okay. Let me commitment, but it would be helpful if business could tell Ministers that the world is changing dramatically have a feel for where corporation tax rates are going. and the G7 may not always be in pole position. In fact, I The second principle is simplicity, and it is in that believe that the present elements of the G7 will not be in regard that I think the amendment is most worthy of pole position for very much longer, because I perceive a support. Removing lots of rates and reliefs and massive, dynamic change in the world, which the present concentrating on a lower headline rate makes the system recession will only enhance. The Government need to easier to understand for companies. It is harder for understand that, but I see no understanding among people to dodge tax, and complying with tax obligations them of that trend. is less of an administrative burden. Let me explain part of the reason I think that. I have The third principle is transparency.I caution Conservative just returned from a Department for Business, Enterprise Members against creating the impression that they wish and Regulatory Reform trip to the United Arab Emirates to cut business taxes when the reality is that they want and Saudi Arabia, and I went to Dubai. Some might say nothing of the sort. They are in harmony with the that Dubai is having a pretty bad time, and indeed it is, 711 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 712 because it is not a major oil-producing part of the of an overall competitive framework for business, that world, but it is a hub for a massive region. People there is a prerequisite for solid economic growth. When we said to me time and again, “We used to look to the west; look back over the medium term, we can see that many we now look to the east.” Business man after business countries which, when they reduced their business tax man in Saudi Arabia and the Emirates told me that. Of burden, in fact experienced a business tax increase year course, many of them were not nationals of those on year as the rates came down. countries. They were European business men who decided None of those comments will come as a surprise to to settle their businesses in that part of the world those on the Conservative Front Bench, as I have made because of the potential that it provided. That is what them on many occasions. It is the case, however, as we we are competing against. It is against that background have discussed before, that concerns arose when business that this debate is so important. It is about ensuring the taxes were kept high. Even when allowances and reliefs recharging of Britain’s natural entrepreneurial spirit. for investment were extended, there were concerns that That creativity is vital, and lower tax rates inspire that that regime failed to support the good businesses that creativity.I beg the Government to recognise the connection were simply getting on and running their companies, in the amendment, even at this late stage. and supported only the companies or firms that invested I was rather surprised at the hon. Member for Coventry, in particular areas. I shall return to that in a moment. North-West (Mr. Robinson), whom I admire enormously. He is one of the few members of the Labour party with The hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) suggested real business experience. I was particularly surprised that the proposed tax cuts would fundamentally be paid that, although he recognised that we created the lowest for by reducing or removing allowances or reliefs, by corporate rates of taxation in the G7, he did not seem simplifying the allowance or relief system. Although I to think that that was too important. That was a very agree with the need for a simpler tax allowance and confusing argument. I recognise the points made about relief system in general, I have a couple of questions the overall tax basis, but he did not see the creative, about his amendment. What assessment has he made of imaginative elements of the proposal, as I would expect the value of lost investments—investments that might a business man to do. That surprised me in a business be cancelled or delayed as a result of the proposals—if man of his stature. those allowances or reliefs have already been budgeted into the costs? Why has he proceeded at this point with Mr. Redwood: Drawing on his business experience, the cut, rather than proposing a longer time scale for does my hon. Friend find, as I do, that business people changes to the tax and allowance regime, which would in big companies will go to enormous lengths—within allow the economy to benefit from the announcement the law, we trust—to try to avoid paying higher taxes? effect, as we have seen elsewhere, whereby businesses That is important when they do business across the come and set up in preparation for lower taxes, while world. mitigating the risk of investment projects being cancelled or postponed? Mr. Binley: Of course my right hon. Friend is correct. I am very supportive of a lower corporation tax Many of the greatest business supporters of the current rate—our aspiration is to reduce it to 20 per cent.—and Government were the proponents of such exercises. The I am in favour of a simpler tax system, which is a good hon. Member for Coventry, North-West—I repeat that thing, as it reduces costs and burdens, and is easier for I hold him in great esteem—said that the argument was business people, their offices and their staff, to understand. about timing. That was the essence of why he did not However, I question the timing of the proposal. Why want to support a cut to 25 per cent. at this moment. I not say that it would take place in future, to benefit would argue that it is precisely because of the timing from the announcement effect, and why not tie that into that we need to make the change. I was one of those a longer lead time for the abolition or simplification of people who saw, from ’79 onwards, a great rebirth of allowances? Importantly, what assessment has the hon. entrepreneurial spirit in this nation. I saw what that did Gentleman made of the risk of investment projects for people like me, who wanted to go out and be their being cancelled? I want to support the proposal, but it own boss, to build and create, and to drive forward the would be useful to hear his thinking. jobs that were so successfully created in the next years. At the time, one of the major motivations for me, and Mr. Redwood: From the point of view of the hon. for many other people like me, was the fact that the Gentleman’s party, what would be a competitive corporation Government wanted to get off the back of business, tax rate for the United Kingdom? free business up, and encourage business to build. Therein lies the import of the cut to 25 per cent. Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham, I want further Stewart Hosie: We suggested a reduction to 20 per cuts as time progresses, but timing is vital if we are to cent. That was our favoured route, and we thought it grab the green shoots that will surely appear. That is would be the optimal position. We must not have a race why it is important that we make the change now, and to the bottom, but we cannot compete with the lowest-cost that we tell people we want to support business and economies: there must be a competitive package—that entrepreneurism. We want to grow jobs and businesses is the key. At the same time, we made it clear that that and we want to attract businesses so that my children would not be done on day one. There must be a lead and grandchildren do not see that movement to the east time, and where that has happened—and there is empirical as the end of their hopes and aspirations. evidence of this—the announcement effect on businesses coming here in preparation increased the tax yield even Stewart Hosie: I do not have a problem with lower before the rates went down. If the hon. Member for business taxes, and I am very supportive of lower Fareham responded to those points, I would be extremely corporation tax. I have said so many times that, as part grateful. 713 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 714

Mr. Syms: First, I should like to draw hon. Members’ of other people speak English and can compete with us. attention to my interest in the Register of Members’ Reducing the rate from 28 to 25 per cent. by restricting Interests as a director of a family building business. capital allowances and reliefs is sensible. We have had an interesting debate, and when we talk My hon. Friend made some compelling arguments. about first principles—tax, tax rates and competition—we At the beginning of this debate he said that five years often have such a debate. At the beginning of debate on ago we had the fourth lowest headline rate in the EU the Finance Bill, we had almost a Cook’s tour of and that today we had the 19th lowest. However, as we Canada, Bahrain, Dubai, China and Dundee, East. have heard, our competition comes not only from the That shows that we live in a competitive world environment EU—let us face it; many EU countries are rich and that is not getting any easier year by year, but is becoming successful and will get through the problems—but from far more competitive. One of the examples that I used the whole world. Setting a lower rate is therefore important. was Ireland, and a key message that has come across is The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne) made that low taxes generate more revenue and jobs, attracting some good points. A simple proposal that is more people to locate there. Ireland is one of our competitors certain and not as avoidable is far better than having a and, notwithstanding its short-term difficulties, which higher rate and lots of reliefs and allowances. We see the are similar to ours as a result of asset price deflation direction of travel, but countries in the rest of the world and everything else, we must accept that this is a competitive are trying to get our business. They want to attract our world. companies, and they are doing so by setting more We should not look at the question on a year-by-year competitive rates. Unless we respond to that, we will not basis; we need to look at the medium term. Our economic be defending the wealth, jobs and investment in the problems do not relate to one year alone, but to half a UK. We have to look beyond our current economic dozen years. We have to keep business in the UK and difficulties. Let us face it—we know that the corporation attract it to the UK. Setting a rate, a direction of travel, tax take is going to take a hit and that, even when of 25 per cent. will make things a little easier than if we recovery comes, there will be a lag. However, we also set a rate of 28 per cent. know that international businesses plan on a three, five, seven or 10-year basis. We should therefore plan our 5.30 pm economic renaissance on the basis of setting rates to encourage people to look towards the medium term. One of the messages to come from our financial problems has been how big some of the banks and Mr. Redwood: Is my hon. Friend worried for firms in international companies are in relation to our economy. his constituency that are part of multinationals given We know that people sitting in various capitals around that, at a time when a lot of capacity worldwide will be the world look at the various competitive differences of removed and plants will be closed, too high a headline language, productivity and tax; all those things feed in. rate might be what tips the balance against a British Although we do not necessarily need the lowest tax, we plant? do not want to tax too much more than our competitors. That is a black mark when people are considering where Mr. Syms: There is over-capacity within the car industry, they are going to invest and to locate their businesses. and there will be cutbacks there; and we have already Paying for the measure by restricting the capital seen bad news from Teesside as regards steel. Many allowances reliefs is probably right. Most businesses international businesses will be looking to see where that have to invest in equipment and machinery do so they want to expand in future. We face great competition, for reasons to do with the business and not because of and the tax rate is one of the things that might encourage the tax advantages. The hon. Member for Coventry, people at least to consider staying here at a difficult North-West (Mr. Robinson) has already told us that time. Many of our major manufacturing plants are there may be an impact on manufacturing. Of course: hanging in there by their fingernails. We hope that we the pound has devalued against the euro and interest will get through the current problems. However, it is rates have massively reduced. All those things should— important to send a message in terms of public policy, fingers crossed—help west midlands manufacturing. So setting rates and stating a direction of travel if we are to what I have been discussing is a rather good way to go retain people and stop them moving abroad. I was about things. surprised when my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham My hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) listed some of the companies that have moved. I was mentioned companies such as Google and insurance aware of some, but perhaps I am not as glued to the companies, some of which are moving for regulatory financial pages as somebody who does the Treasury job reasons as well as the reason of rate. Such companies full time and is a chartered accountant. are more mobile. Manufacturing can move, but it is a The amendment deals with lost revenue to UK plc hassle to move a plant; it is easier for an insurance that could be spent on important alternatives. It is company, bank, investment fund or software company therefore an excellent proposal, and I commend it to the such as Google to move. It is perfectly possible for my House. hon. Friend to come up with a calculation for amendment 1 whereby the burden on UK business would be the same John Howell (Henley) (Con): I apologise for not but the pot might be bigger, because we might retain having realised that in order to participate in this debate businesses that would otherwise consider moving—whether one had to be an expert on Canada, but having returned to Bermuda, southern Ireland or the Netherlands—and from Canada only on Saturday morning, let me give the we might well attract businesses in. We have tremendous House the benefit of an update on the situation there. advantages as a nation. We are creative and hard-working, The economic situation was encouraging, as were the and the English language is a tremendous asset. That conversations that I had with Ministers, including those also means that we have to be competitive because a lot in the finance team. They had a realistic view of Canada’s 715 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 716 position and direction and were keen to go out around Mr. Timms: I may have misheard, but I believe that the world and “sell” the country. Canada started with a the intervention was factually incorrect. The corporation good situation in terms of its approach to the current tax rate in Canada is higher than that in the UK. crisis. The stock market was doing rather well last week—not that I had time to undertake any speculation— John Howell: I think that my right hon. Friend the and unemployment was under control. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) was talking There is one great difference between Canada and the about the overall direction in which it was going—at UK: Canada has a Conservative Government. One of least, that was what I understood. the Committees that I have served on over the past few To return to the example of countries needing to months considered the Corporation Tax Bill. Nothing reach maturity to consider reductions in corporation new was introduced into that Bill—it was part of a tax, the country that sticks in my mind is Poland, which tidying-up exercise; “simplification” was the euphemism has reduced its corporation tax rate to 19 per cent. Of used—but the fact that it had some 1,300 clauses shows course, the UK was very much behind the reforms there that we have some problems in our corporation tax in the whole tax and financial system. It is a great irony, system. It was evident that what was required was not particularly given the advice that Poland gave the Prime just telling the press about closing loopholes but genuine Minister recently, that Poland was ready to take advice simplification of a regime of allowances and reliefs that from the Conservatives but the Prime Minister was not. interact with each other, are extremely complex and set There we have something that will continue in future. a very confusing picture for foreign investors who come to this country. It is a shame that the opportunity was In the businesses that I have advised and examined, not taken to make more of simplifying the corporation there is great attraction to the headline rate of corporation tax system as part of the way out of the current crisis. tax. There is huge scope for simplifying the system even further. For several years, I was an inspector of taxes— Rob Marris: May I caution the hon. Gentleman [Interruption.] I hear cries of “Shame!” from my hon. about praying in aid Canada and Poland? He will find Friends. I remember that when I first started, all the that both countries have a rather higher unemployment income and corporation tax Acts could be put into a rate than we do. I appreciate that ours is getting worse reasonably small box that could be put into one’s briefcase and is worrying, but I think that both those countries and taken home. That is no longer so, which is a great have higher rates. Canada certainly does. shame. Even then, one had to deal with huge areas of enormous complexity, such as transfer pricing. John Howell: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. There is always a limit to the use that we The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Jim Hood): Order. can make of examples, but those of Canada and Poland May I ask the hon. Gentleman to speak a bit more still have merit to the extent that I have indicated. about the amendment as opposed to the generality of corporation tax? David Taylor: The hon. Gentleman has rapidly developed John Howell: Thank you, Mr. Hood. I shall try to do a reputation in the House for being a rather more that. That complexity, though, is very much part of the subdued and rational person than his predecessor, which balance that needs to be struck in deciding what reduction does not take a lot. He says that the direction in which in corporation tax is required and how it can be adjusted. things are going is all that matters. Does he believe that A lot of hon. Members have spoken about if investors and industrialists were looking at a country competitiveness in reducing the rate, and I endorse the with a highish corporation tax rate that was heading many comments that have been made about the role of down slightly, and at another country with a lowish a lower rate of corporation tax in encouraging foreign corporation tax rate that was heading up slightly, a investment into this country. For a number of years, it rational organisation or individual would choose the was very much the UK that set the agenda in encouraging former because the direction was downward? I do not newly developing countries in how they should approach think so. their financial systems and set their own rates. I remember being involved in discussions how the countries of central John Howell: I am not sure whether to thank the hon. and eastern Europe, as they emerged, could get the right Gentleman or whether his remarks comparing me with balance between the rate of corporation tax and the my predecessor were even a half-hearted attempt at a need to bring in foreign investment through other means. compliment, but I will take them at face value and hope That was always a difficult discussion, because countries that I continue to make the gap bigger in his appreciation. always want to encourage companies to come in initially through means other than reducing corporation tax. It takes quite a lot of maturity for a country to get to the 5.45 pm point of reducing it, as the amendment proposes. In my experience of advising companies and Mr. Redwood: When my hon. Friend was in Canada, Governments about how to set up foreign investment did he find people taking great delight in the fact that regimes, companies consider the headline rate. They do the UK rate was so much higher than the Canadian not look at it on its own, and the comments about not rate? Did they believe that that gave them a great considering it in isolation are correct. However, companies competitive advantage? consider the direction in which it is going and are prepared to take a punt on that, and to examine other John Howell: My right hon. Friend is right—there circumstances, such as the simplicity of the tax system. was a certain pleasure in that, although perhaps I An incredibly complex system will offset some of the should not use the word “pleasure”, as they are, after advantages of reducing the tax rate. It is therefore right all, our cousins and still part of the Commonwealth. to proceed with simplification. 717 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 718

Companies examine the whole complex pattern, but I companies—compared with 28 per cent. in the UK. cannot emphasise enough that the starting point is the However, as we have heard, the Canadian Government one thing that one can always grab hold of—the amount have announced an aspiration to reduce that rate and, and direction of corporation tax. Earlier remarks about in due course, for Canada to have the lowest rate in the considering the whole package are important, but there G7. Clearly, there cannot be two countries—[Interruption.] must be one guiding figure: the rate of corporation tax. It is possible, I suppose, to have two, if both countries I have done enough of a world tour to my two set the same rate. It is worth pointing out, however, that favourite spots, Canada and Poland. I hope that other that aspiration was set before the problems in the world hon. Members will consider other countries. As my economy that we have seen over the past 18 months. hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, South There have been big changes in the world economy and (Mr. Binley) said, the middle east is an important area. Canada may wish to reconsider how best to address the His comments about attitude, direction, perception and fiscal consequences of the past 18 months. However, the changes people make are vital because we can be our intention—which was set some time ago and which sure that, when the crisis is over, people will not look at Canada said a little while ago that it wanted to emulate the world, or countries’ approach to their tax systems, or even better—remains, but of course we will need to in the same way. They will look for simple tax systems see what happens. that focus on the nation’s priorities and reflect the It is worth bearing it in mind that tax competitiveness changes in people’s experience when, for example, they is about more than just the headline rate of corporation examine the amount of debt on the books. tax, as has been pointed out. The UK tax system I fully endorse the amendment and look forward to certainly has significant advantages, including a generous the vote on it. and well-developed system of research and development tax credits, relatively low administrative burdens for Mr. Timms: The debate has been interesting. I want business, a large tax treaty network and no withholding to underline the Government’s determination to maintain tax on dividends paid. We are introducing a package of the best possible environment for business in the UK, measures in the Finance Bill to reform the taxation of help the economy recover from the current downturn foreign profits, which the hon. Member for Fareham and provide the right conditions for long-term growth. mentioned, enhancing the UK’s competitive position as Since 1997, the UK has led the way among its peers a location for multinational business. We will debate in reducing corporate tax rates. We reduced the main that in due course. rate from 33 per cent. in 1997 to 31 per cent. in 1998, to We in the UK also perform well on other measures, 30 per cent. in 1999 and to 28 per cent. last year. The according to the hon. Gentleman’s former employer. In UK corporation tax rate has been the lowest in the G7 “Paying Taxes”, a publication by PricewaterhouseCoopers since the Government were elected in 1997. The rate has and the World Bank, we rank first in the G7 for ease of consistently come down. paying taxes. We were ranked by KPMG last year as the From listening to some comments, one could be most friendly country in the world for VAT arrangements. forgiven for concluding that the rate had gone up, was going up or was set to go up. It has not—the main rate Mr. Redwood: Dream on. has consistently decreased. Indeed, we have set a target Mr. Timms: I refer the right hon. Gentleman to the to maintain the most competitive main rate of corporation authoritative KPMG survey of more than 500 multinational tax of the major economies. The hon. Member for companies that reached that conclusion. The World Fareham (Mr. Hoban) said that he did not have a Bank’s “Doing Business 2009” study ranks the UK target. We do. Our target is to maintain that most sixth in the world. The evidence is clear: we are in a competitive rate, and we will continue to assess the case strongly competitive position, and it is important that for further reductions in the corporation tax rate, consistent we should retain that. with our wider objectives. This debate, like many in the past, has been enlivened Mr. Redwood: If everything is so wonderful, why have and enlightened— so many companies left for tax reasons and why have there been such strong representations in recent months Rob Marris rose— about how hostile the climate now is on tax? Mr. Timms: By the contributions of my hon. Friend, Mr. Timms: The climate is certainly not hostile on to whom I gladly give way. tax. Of course it is true that, from time to time, some companies choose to locate elsewhere. It is also true, Rob Marris: May I take my right hon. Friend back a however, that over a long period we have consistently few sentences? I think that he said that the Government’s attracted more foreign direct investment into the UK aim was to keep the UK’s corporation tax the lowest in than any other country in the world, with the exception the G7. Does that mean that, if Jim Flaherty in Canada of the US, and in one year—I forget exactly when; it achieved his aspiration of dropping corporation tax to was three or four years ago—we got more in than the 15 per cent., the UK Labour Government would follow US as well. We have an absolutely stunning record on that figure on a beggar-my-neighbour downwards attracting foreign direct investment, which is a reflection approach? of the strongly competitive character of the UK business environment. Mr. Timms: I was coming to precisely the point about Canada, which, thanks to my hon. Friend’s contribution David Taylor: I am pleased to hear the views of and those of others, has been an interesting aspect of international businesses about the user-friendliness of this debate. As I understand the current position in HMRC. The prompt payment code, which the Government Canada, the rate is 33.5 per cent.—at least for most have signed up to, requires the payment of invoices by 719 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 720 the public sector and the Government within 10 days allowances in Committee. There is therefore a track where there is the equivalent of an invoice, such as an record of using the proceeds of simplifying capital acknowledged refund of corporation tax that is due. Is allowances—that is, reducing the rates—to fund reductions it the case that those payments, which are vital to the in the headline rate of corporation tax. Our view is that continuity of the businesses concerned, sometimes take that go further, in order to reduce the rate to 25 per weeks and weeks, because of peaks of work in the cent. relevant tax offices, which is partly because of cuts in My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham the headcount of staff? That is not good, is it? (Mr. Redwood) was acting in his customary role as a critical friend, supportive of where we had moved so Mr. Timms: No, it certainly is not, although I do not far, but perhaps keen for us to move further in the agree that our announcements about changing the way direction of reducing the headline rate of corporation in which Revenue and Customs is organised, for instance, tax. My other hon. Friends cited their business experience would lead to that kind of difficultly. If my hon. Friend in talking about competitiveness and about what businesses is aware of a particular problem, I would be happy to bear in mind when locating activity. hear about it from him and will gladly investigate. Mention has been made of the way in which However, he is certainly right that such repayments Governments focus on tax as a means of competing, should be made promptly. and I think that more reference was made to Canada in In opening the debate, the hon. Member for Fareham today’s debate than perhaps at any time since it was a seemed to say at one point that the change could be dominion and part of the empire. It was good that my funded by simplifying taxation. Indeed, it would be a hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell), a wonderful idea if one could simplify everything and former tax inspector, joined the hon. Member for thereby fund the reduction of corporation tax from Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) as an aficionado 28 to 25 per cent. However, as we explored what he is of Canada and a spokesman on its behalf. proposing further, the position became clearer. Cutting the rate of capital allowances further could produce an effective rate of tax depreciation significantly below the 6pm average depreciation rate used by businesses. We discussed the fact that Canada has a federal rate Businesses with good commercial reason to invest and provincial rates of tax. I note that the OECD would then find the tax system discouraging them from figures suggest that it has a combined rate of 33.5 per doing so, which would be a very undesirable state of cent. If Canada were to achieve its aspiration of reducing affairs, discouraging investment by sectors such as the federal rate by 7 per cent., that would bring its manufacturing, transport, communications, retail and combined rate down to 26.5 per cent., which is below utilities, and certainly damaging our international the present UK tax rate. If the Minister is keen to match competitiveness by reducing investment in those sectors. the Canadian rates, some progress clearly needs to be My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, North-West made. (Mr. Robinson) was absolutely right to underline that We discussed the impact of the proposal on capital point with his experience of working in manufacturing. investment and the possible reaction of businesses to it. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, Part of the problem that we need to address is the fact South-West (Rob Marris) made that point as well. The that the structure of capital allowances has been so hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) did not think that unpredictable in this country. That has made it difficult that mattered, because of other benefits that the for businesses to factor into their plans an understanding manufacturing sector was experiencing. It is certainly of what the capital allowance rate might be. For example, true that, for example, the change in the exchange rate businesses planning on the basis of a 25 per cent. over recent months has been helpful for manufacturing. writing-down allowance might be surprised to find that However, he would be very ill advised indeed to rob there will be a 40 per cent. first-year allowance for this manufacturing in particular of the significant benefits year only. The extent to which that provision will create of the current arrangements for allowances. We simplified an incentive for businesses to invest this year is unclear. capital allowances in the Finance Act 2008 to pay for Many businesses with a longer planning horizon might the reduction in the headline rate. Going further could not be able to respond to such a short-term incentive. create serious problems. Indeed, the hon. Member for It is important to have predictability so that businesses Dundee, East (Stewart Hosie) was right to query the can make their plans. That is one reason why we are so timing of the hon. Gentleman’s proposition. keen to flag up our intention to reduce the headline rate I hope that the House will reject the amendment. of corporation tax, and to fund that reduction through Nevertheless, I underline the Government’s commitment a reduction in the rate of capital allowances. The broader to maintaining the attractive tax environment for business economy would gain huge benefits from moving to a that we have in the UK, not least through having the lower headline rate. Such a move would send a clear lowest headline main rate of corporation tax in the G7. signal to inward investment that this is the place to come for lower corporation tax rates. Mr. Hoban: We have had a wide-ranging and thorough Such a move would also tackle the issue of businesses debate on the amendment about reducing the headline moving out of the United Kingdom. I think that my rate of corporation tax. It was interesting that the hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) was Minister acknowledged the fact that, in the Finance Act impressed by my lengthy list of businesses leaving the 2008, the Government were able to fund a reduction in UK. Part of the problem is that, when the first few the headline rate of corporation tax by simplifying the businesses moved, it was newsworthy and people paid allowances. We discussed the reforms to the industrial attention, but subsequently, a stream of businesses leaving buildings allowance and the agricultural buildings have left. It has become more commonplace and less 721 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 722 noteworthy, and people now accept that it is happening. Heath, Mr. David Penrose, John But the fact that it is less newsworthy does not mean Heathcoat-Amory, rh Pritchard, Mark that it is less important for us to take action. Mr. David Redwood, rh Mr. John Hendry, Charles Reid, Mr. Alan The Financial Secretary to the Treasury talked of Herbert, Nick Rennie, Willie several firsts. He said that the UK was the best place for Hoban, Mr. Mark Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm tax compliance and the best place for VAT, but let us Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Robathan, Mr. Andrew not forget our other first. We also have the longest tax Hollobone, Mr. Philip Robertson, Angus code in the world. We beat India by a country mile in Horam, Mr. John Robertson, Hugh that regard. International comparisons do not always Horwood, Martin Robertson, Mr. Laurence work in our favour. Hosie, Stewart Rogerson, Dan It is important for Britain to have a competitive tax Howarth, David Rosindell, Andrew rate. It is important for inward investment, and for Howarth, Mr. Gerald Rowen, Paul Howell, John Russell, Bob strengthening the economy to make Britain a place Hughes, Simon Sanders, Mr. Adrian where people want to do business. This proposal is only Huhne, Chris Scott, Mr. Lee one part of a series of reforms of the corporation tax Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Selous, Andrew system that would lead to a better system for business in Hunter, Mark Shepherd, Mr. Richard this country, but it is important that we send a signal Jack, rh Mr. Michael Simmonds, Mark that this is something that we are committed to. That is Jackson, Mr. Stewart Simpson, Mr. Keith why I shall press the amendment to a vote this evening. Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Smith, Sir Robert Question put, That the amendment be made. Kawczynski, Daniel Soames, Mr. Nicholas Keetch, Mr. Paul Spelman, Mrs. Caroline The Committee proceeded to a Division. Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Spicer, Sir Michael Key, Robert Spink, Bob The Temporary Chairman: I ask the Serjeant at Arms Kirkbride, Miss Julie Spring, Mr. Richard to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby. Knight, rh Mr. Greg Stanley, rh Sir John Kramer, Susan Steen, Mr. Anthony The Committee having divided: Ayes 200, Noes 302. Lamb, Norman Streeter, Mr. Gary Division No. 117] [6.3 pm Lansley, Mr. Andrew Stunell, Andrew Laws, Mr. David Swayne, Mr. Desmond AYES Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Swire, Mr. Hugo Lewis, Dr. Julian Afriyie, Adam Davies, Philip Syms, Mr. Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Alexander, Danny Davis, rh David Tapsell, Sir Peter Lidington, Mr. David Amess, Mr. David Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Taylor, Matthew Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Taylor, Dr. Richard Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Baldry, Tony Dorries, Nadine Teather, Sarah Luff, Peter Barker, Gregory Duncan, Alan Timpson, Mr. Edward Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Barrett, John Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Tredinnick, David MacNeil, Mr. Angus Beith, rh Sir Alan Dunne, Mr. Philip Turner, Mr. Andrew Main, Anne Bellingham, Mr. Henry Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Malins, Mr. Humfrey Vara, Mr. Shailesh Bercow, John Evans, Mr. Nigel Maples, Mr. John Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Binley, Mr. Brian Evennett, Mr. David Mason, John Wallace, Mr. Ben Blunt, Mr. Crispin Fabricant, Michael Mates, rh Mr. Michael Waterson, Mr. Nigel Bone, Mr. Peter Fallon, Mr. Michael McIntosh, Miss Anne Watkinson, Angela Boswell, Mr. Tim Field, Mr. Mark McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Webb, Steve Bottomley, Peter Foster, Mr. Don Mercer, Patrick Weir, Mr. Mike Brady, Mr. Graham Fox, Dr. Liam Miller, Mrs. Maria Whittingdale, Mr. John Brake, Tom Francois, Mr. Mark Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Brazier, Mr. Julian Fraser, Christopher Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Moore, Mr. Michael Breed, Mr. Colin Gale, Mr. Roger Wiggin, Bill Moss, Mr. Malcolm Brokenshire, James Garnier, Mr. Edward Willetts, Mr. David Mulholland, Greg Browne, Mr. Jeremy Gauke, Mr. David Williams, Hywel Murrison, Dr. Andrew Browning, Angela Gibb, Mr. Nick Williams, Mark Neill, Robert Bruce, rh Malcolm Gidley, Sandra Williams, Stephen Newmark, Mr. Brooks Burns, Mr. Simon Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Wilson, Mr. Rob O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Burstow, Mr. Paul Goldsworthy, Julia Wilson, Sammy Oaten, Mr. Mark Burt, Alistair Goodman, Mr. Paul Wishart, Pete Öpik, Lembit Burt, Lorely Goodwill, Mr. Robert Young, rh Sir George Osborne, Mr. George Cable, Dr. Vincent Gove, Michael Paice, Mr. James Cameron, rh Mr. David Gray, Mr. James Tellers for the Ayes: Paterson, Mr. Owen Cash, Mr. William Grayling, Chris James Duddridge and Penning, Mike Chope, Mr. Christopher Green, Damian Jeremy Wright Clappison, Mr. James Greening, Justine Clark, Greg Grieve, Mr. Dominic NOES Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Hague, rh Mr. William Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Austin, Mr. Ian Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Hammond, Mr. Philip Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Austin, John Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Hancock, Mr. Mike Anderson, Mr. David Bailey, Mr. Adrian Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Hands, Mr. Greg Curry, rh Mr. David Harper, Mr. Mark Anderson, Janet Balls, rh Ed Davey, Mr. Edward Harris, Dr. Evan Armstrong, rh Hilary Banks, Gordon Davies, Mr. Dai Heald, Mr. Oliver Atkins, Charlotte Barlow, Ms Celia 723 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 724

Battle, rh John Etherington, Bill Kennedy, rh Jane Purnell, rh James Bayley, Hugh Farrelly, Paul Khan, Mr. Sadiq Rammell, Bill Beckett, rh Margaret Field, rh Mr. Frank Kidney, Mr. David Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Begg, Miss Anne Fisher, Mark Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Reed, Mr. Andy Bell, Sir Stuart Fitzpatrick, Jim Knight, rh Jim Reed, Mr. Jamie Benn, rh Hilary Flello, Mr. Robert Kumar, Dr. Ashok Riordan, Mrs. Linda Benton, Mr. Joe Flint, rh Caroline Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Robertson, John Berry, Roger Flynn, Paul Lammy, rh Mr. David Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Betts, Mr. Clive Follett, Barbara Laxton, Mr. Bob Rooney, Mr. Terry Blackman, Liz Foster, Mr. Michael Lepper, David Roy, Mr. Frank Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta (Worcester) Levitt, Tom Roy, Lindsay Blizzard, Mr. Bob Foster, Michael Jabez Lewis, Mr. Ivan Ruane, Chris Borrow, Mr. David S. (Hastings and Rye) Linton, Martin Ruddock, Joan Bradshaw, Mr. Ben Francis, Dr. Hywel Lloyd, Tony Russell, Christine Brennan, Kevin Gardiner, Barry Love, Mr. Andrew Salter, Martin Brown, Lyn George, rh Mr. Bruce Lucas, Ian Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Gerrard, Mr. Neil Mackinlay, Andrew Seabeck, Alison Brown, Mr. Russell Gibson, Dr. Ian Malik, Mr. Shahid Sharma, Mr. Virendra Browne, rh Des Gilroy, Linda Mallaber, Judy Shaw, Jonathan Bryant, Chris Godsiff, Mr. Roger Mann, John Sheridan, Jim Buck, Ms Karen Goggins, Paul Marris, Rob Simon, Mr. Siôn Burden, Richard Goodman, Helen Marsden, Mr. Gordon Singh, Mr. Marsha Burgon, Colin Griffith, Nia Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Skinner, Mr. Dennis Burnham, rh Andy Griffiths, Nigel Martlew, Mr. Eric Slaughter, Mr. Andy Butler, Ms Dawn Grogan, Mr. John McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Gwynne, Andrew McCabe, Steve Smith, Ms Angela C. Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Hain, rh Mr. Peter McCafferty, Chris (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Cairns, David Hall, Mr. Mike McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Angela E. (Basildon) Campbell, Mr. Alan Hall, Patrick McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, Geraldine Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Hamilton, Mr. David McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Smith, rh Jacqui Caton, Mr. Martin Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McDonagh, Siobhain Snelgrove, Anne Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hanson, rh Mr. David McDonnell, John Soulsby, Sir Peter Challen, Colin Harman, rh Ms Harriet McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Southworth, Helen Chapman, Ben Harris, Mr. Tom McFall, rh John Spellar, rh Mr. John Clark, Paul Havard, Mr. Dai McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Clarke,rhMr.Tom Healey, rh John McIsaac, Shona Stewart, Ian Clelland, Mr. David Hendrick, Mr. Mark McKechin, Ann Stoate, Dr. Howard Clwyd, rh Ann Hepburn, Mr. Stephen McKenna, Rosemary Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hesford, Stephen McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Straw, rh Mr. Jack Coffey, Ann Heyes, David Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Stringer, Graham Cohen, Harry Hill, rh Keith Meale, Mr. Alan Stuart, Ms Gisela Connarty, Michael Hillier, Meg Merron, Gillian Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Cooper, Rosie Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Michael, rh Alun Tami, Mark Cooper, rh Yvette Hoey, Kate Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Taylor, Ms Dari Corbyn, Jeremy Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Miller, Andrew Taylor, David Cousins, Jim Hope, Phil Mitchell, Mr. Austin Thomas, Mr. Gareth Creagh, Mary Howarth, rh Mr. George Moffat, Anne Thornberry, Emily Cruddas, Jon Howells, rh Dr. Kim Moffatt, Laura Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Cryer, Mrs. Ann Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Morgan, Julie Tipping, Paddy Cummings, John Hughes, rh Beverley Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Todd, Mr. Mark Cunningham, Mr. Jim Humble, Mrs. Joan Mudie, Mr. George Touhig, rh Mr. Don Cunningham, Tony Hutton, rh Mr. John Mullin, Mr. Chris Trickett, Jon Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire Iddon, Dr. Brian Munn, Meg Turner, Dr. Desmond David, Mr. Wayne Illsley, Mr. Eric Murphy, Mr. Denis Turner, Mr. Neil Davidson, Mr. Ian Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Twigg, Derek Davies, Mr. Quentin Irranca-Davies, Huw Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Ussher, Kitty Dean, Mrs. Janet Jackson, Glenda Naysmith, Dr. Doug Vaz, rh Keith Denham, rh Mr. John James, Mrs. Siân C. Norris, Dan Vis, Dr. Rudi Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Jenkins, Mr. Brian O’Brien, Mr. Mike Walley, Joan Dismore, Mr. Andrew Johnson, rh Alan O’Hara, Mr. Edward Waltho, Lynda Dobbin, Jim Johnson, Ms Diana R. Olner, Mr. Bill Ward, Claire Dobson, rh Frank Jones, Helen Osborne, Sandra Watts, Mr. Dave Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Jones, Mr. Kevan Owen, Albert Whitehead, Dr. Alan Doran, Mr. Frank Jones, Lynne Palmer, Dr. Nick Williams, rh Mr. Alan Dowd, Jim Jones, Mr. Martyn Pearson, Ian Williams, Mrs. Betty Drew, Mr. David Jowell, rh Tessa Plaskitt, Mr. James Wills, rh Mr. Michael Eagle, Angela Joyce, Mr. Eric Pope, Mr. Greg Wilson, Phil Eagle, Maria Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Pound, Stephen Winnick, Mr. David Efford, Clive Keeble, Ms Sally Prentice, Mr. Gordon Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Ellman, Mrs. Louise Keen, Alan Primarolo, rh Dawn Wood, Mike Engel, Natascha Kelly, rh Ruth Prosser, Gwyn Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Ennis, Jeff Kemp, Mr. Fraser Purchase, Mr. Ken Woolas, Mr. Phil 725 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 726

Wright, Mr. Anthony Wyatt, Derek plumber, depending on whether he was employed, self- Wright, David Tellers for the Noes: employed or a limited company. I believe that it was Wright, Mr. Iain Barbara Keeley and adequately flagged up at the time that that would happen. Wright, Dr. Tony Chris Mole David Taylor: I recall the decision and its implementation, Question accordingly negatived. and I recall the massive wave of incorporation that took Clause 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill. place. It was not one of the best decisions that we have made in government. Does the hon. Gentleman agree with me—and, indeed with most management Clause 8 consultants—that, in the context of the framework for business, the decision whether to incorporate should never, or at best very rarely, be made for fiscal reasons? SMALL COMPANIES’ RATES AND FRACTIONS FOR FINANCIAL YEAR 2009 Mr. Hoban: That is an important question. It returns Mr. Hoban: I beg to move amendment 2, us to what was said earlier about distortions in the tax page 3, line 22, leave out ‘21%’ and insert ‘20%’. system, and about attempts to persuade people to make decisions that reflect commercial realities rather than The Temporary Chairman: With this it will be convenient being driven by tax considerations. A difficult position to discuss the following: arose. Very small businesses—one-man bands—became incorporated in order to take advantage of the fiscal Amendment 6, page 3, line 23, at end insert— position, which I believed was a flawed decision. I ‘(1A) The Treasury may by regulations provide for the argued at the time that it would lead to a wave of introduction of a very small companies relief from the small incorporations. companies’ rate under subsection (1) for businesses with a rateable value of less than £25,000. The problem is that small companies are not measured (1B) Regulations under subsection (1A) shall be made by in terms of numbers: in terms of whether they have one statutory instrument and shall be subject to amendment in employee or two, three, four or five. They are measured pursuance of a resolution of the House of Commons.’. in terms of the amount of profit that they make. On the Amendment 3, page 3, line 25, leave out ‘7/400ths’ one hand, there is the wish to create a level playing field and insert ‘1/50th’. for the plumber, the carpenter, the engineer and the IT software support worker, while on the other hand there Mr. Hoban: Having engaged in a helpful and thorough is a range of businesses which are also incorporated and debate on amendment 1, relating to the main rate of which are much bigger. In the latter case, the decision to corporation tax, we must now deal with the small incorporate was probably made on grounds of logic or companies’ rate. Amendment 2, tabled by me and by to admit liabilities. two of my hon. Friends, seeks to reduce the headline What is happening now, however, is that larger companies rate from 21 per cent. to 20 per cent., while amendment which nevertheless fall within the profit threshold for 3 seeks to change the fraction from 7/400 to 1/50. I shall small companies are paying the price of the Government’s say more about amendment 3 a little later. Many of the early mistakes. Following the introduction of the zero points made during our debate on amendment 1 about per cent. rate in 2002, the Government saw what was the unpredictability, complexity and uncertainty of the happening and responded by introducing such measures corporation tax system apply to small companies as as a higher tax charge on distributions. Gradually, a well, but in the case of small companies there is a more point was reached at which, rather than piling complexity pressing issue. on complexity, the Government decided to increase the There is a little bit of history attached to amendment small companies rate of corporation tax in an attempt 2. There has been a long-running debate in Government to narrow the gap between the rate paid by people about the taxation of small companies, and about what working by themselves as small companies and the rate tax rate has been appropriate. When I first served on a that they would pay if they were employees or self-employed. Finance Bill Committee as a Back Bencher in 2002, the In 2007, the Government finally decided that enough then Chancellor—now Prime Minister—had proposed was enough. They scrapped the system, and introduced a zero per cent. corporation tax rate on profits of less a 19 per cent. rate. They then set out to increase corporation than £10,000. What the Government said at the time tax for small companies by 1 per cent. per annum until suggested that they saw the proposed rate as a spur to it reached a top rate of 22 per cent. This was meant to enterprise which would reinvigorate British business, be the year in which it would reach that rate, but, in the but that rested on a key assumption which was misplaced light of the current economic circumstances, the then and which, in a sense, has led to some of our Government decided to put the increase on hold. Let present problems: the assumption that only companies me ask the Minister a question that I asked on Second were entrepreneurial. That assumption ignored the Reading last week. Can the Government give any indication contribution that can be made by partnerships and of whether they intend next year to raise the rate to other unincorporated businesses to the dynamism of 22 per cent., and to continue on that upward path? the British economy. It was not just the change in rate that the Government The flaw in the Government’s proposal was that it did considered as a means of tackling the issue of incorporation. not merely overlook the fact that other types of business They introduced a raft of rules on managed service organisation could be equally dynamic, but triggered a companies in the 2007 Finance Act, and conducted a behavioural change. A raft of unincorporated businesses long consultation on the shifting of income between became limited companies, because a gap had opened husband and wife, which, as far as I can see, has been up between the rates of tax that would be paid by, say, a kicked into the long grass. However, I think that we 727 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 728 need to learn the lessons of the original rate change In an FSB survey, when its members were asked if policy. I think that it was misconceived. It triggered this was a Budget for small businesses, 68 per cent. said certain types of behaviour that the Government have no. When asked if it would have a positive effect on sought to crack down on, and introduced a new complexity their business, only 7 per cent. of respondents said yes. into the tax system. It is a sign of the uncertainty and A survey conducted by the Forum of Private Business unpredictability in the tax regime for small businesses. came to a similar conclusion: 97 per cent. of respondents said nothing had been done to ease the burden of costs Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I accept that that they face, and 94 per cent. felt that the Budget did the hon. Gentleman’s amendments seek to achieve specific not address the issues threatening the survival of their ends, but does he more generally feel that, notwithstanding businesses. the current debate, we need to have a root-and-branch It was not only business organisations that were review of the complexity? That complexity does not critical of the Budget and its impact on small businesses. help either tax gathering or small businesses. Businesses Theo Paphitis, one of the stars of the “Dragons’ Den” are burdened by an unbearable cost in time and effort television programme, said: because of the opacity of the system, but a more “The Chancellor forgot that small businesses exist. He also streamlined version would help both them and the forgot that one in five households in the UK derives its income taxman. from small businesses. He also forgot that nearly half of all employees in the private sector are employed by small businesses. In fact, the Chancellor forgot a lot of things.” 6.30 pm One way in which we can help small businesses is by Mr. Hoban: The hon. Gentleman makes an important reducing the headline rate of corporation tax for small point: we must have a less complex system. The Chancellor companies from 21 per cent. to 20 per cent. As with the of the Exchequer made a commitment to simplify it measure proposed in amendment 1, this is a funded tax when he was appointed to the post. I do not know cut. I know that the modesty of it will upset the hon. whether the hon. Gentleman is auditioning to take part Member for Taunton, but it is the prudent thing to do in the Public Bill Committee, but if he were he would at present. Again, we will fund the reduction in the notice that in the Bill’s index there is the sub-heading of small companies rate through simplifying the capital “Simplification”, listed under which there are only three allowances system. clauses out of a total of 126. Therefore, although everyone Earlier on, we engaged in debate about the aspires to achieve simplification, it is clearly hard to competitiveness situation for small businesses and how deliver. I know that complexity is an issue for the people the UK tax regime compares with those of other countries. who run small businesses; that was raised with me on According to the OECD, our small companies tax rate Friday, when I was talking to small businesses locally. is significantly higher than that of the US and France, whose rates are 15 per cent. Earlier in the debate, the Lembit Öpik: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Government were very keen to highlight that the UK his concurrence with my view, but for the avoidance of mainstream corporation tax rate was one of the lowest doubt let me make it clear to my party Whips that I am in the G7. Clearly, however, as the US and France—and, absolutely not auditioning for the honour of serving on indeed, Canada—have lower rates of corporation tax the Public Bill Committee. for small companies, we are out of kilter with other countries. My hon. Friend the Member for Henley Mr. Hoban: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for (John Howell) will be interested in the Canada comparison, his comments too, but I hope that that is the end of and I am sorry that the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, them, as his party colleague, the hon. Member for South-West (Rob Marris) is not present to hear about Taunton (Mr. Browne), was very critical about the it, although I am sure he will pick it up later. We need to length of an earlier speech of mine, which was the result ensure that both the main rate of corporation tax and of my being overly generous in taking interventions. that for small companies are competitive. I have talked about the need to look at the direction The measure proposed in amendment 3 is very of travel of the small companies rate, and about whether straightforward—or at least I thought it was when I holding the figure this year at 21 per cent. is a permanent tabled an amendment last year reducing the fraction feature or it is the Government’s intention to move to concerned to one fortieth, only for the Financial Secretary’s 22 per cent. next year. Many small businesses are finding predecessor to point out that that fraction was based on the current economic crisis very difficult. In October of the corporation tax mainstream rate being 30 per cent. I last year, John Wright, chairman of the Federation of have therefore gone back to my calculator, and it is my Small Businesses, wrote an open letter to the Prime belief that the fraction should be one fiftieth, under Minister under the heading, which there would be a very smooth transition for “Help or the UK will crumble”. businesses whose profits exceed £300,000, which is the In the body of the text, he implores the Government to upper threshold for small companies until they reach implement Conservative proposals to reduce the rate of the full rate for large companies of £1.5 million. I hope corporation tax for small businesses; amendment 2 the maths of that work. If the House were to agree to would reduce the rate from 21 per cent. to 20 per cent. amendment 2, then amendment 3 flows logically from Not only is that a Conservative policy, but Mr. Wright that. In our amendments, we both reduce the rate clearly hoped that the Government would introduce it concerned from 21 per cent. to 20 per cent. for small in the Budget. This is what Mr. Wright said after the companies and we have got the right fraction. Budget: May I pre-empt the hon. Member for Taunton in his “In what has been the most crucial budget in decades, the FSB comments on his amendment 6? I was intrigued by it, is disappointed that small businesses have been largely ignored”. and I wish to flag up my understanding of it. The 729 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 730

[Mr. Hoban] are not going to cut rates, it is good that they at least indicate that there will be stability and that the rates will intention appears to be to give further tax relief to small be frozen, and seek to convey to businesses the companies based on the rateable value of their premises. understanding that the situation will endure, even though Does that not create a risk of giving highly profitable it is not necessarily in the gift of the Government to businesses relief simply because they might work from guarantee that, as clearly it is not for a longer time scale. small offices? I am not sure whether that is the hon. That statement of intent is helpful because it allows Gentleman’s intention, but I am sure he will explain the businesses to plan. However, it remains our view, as it situation at greater length. was when we discussed the previous clause, that simplicity The thrust of taxation for small companies has been has a virtue and that our trying to reduce headline rates disjointed over the past few years. The Government saw helps companies—as my hon. Friend the Member for it as a spur to enterprise when they introduced the zero Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) said, it helps in terms per cent. rate back in the 2002 Budget. They then of their administrative burden—and creates the right decided that that led to all sorts of inappropriate behaviour message for those looking to start businesses or invest and, sadly, by increasing the rate of tax from 19 to in this country. For those reasons, and because I have 22 per cent., have started to penalise businesses that fall the assurance of the hon. Member for Fareham that the under the definition of small companies but that are Conservative proposal is costed and responsible, as I not an alternative to being self-employed or employed. I like proposals to be, it is reasonable to support it. see the emerging danger that we are penalising those Amendment 6, which stands in my name and that of small companies that have not sought to incorporate to my colleagues, was an attempt to provide additional take advantage of the tax rules, but that incorporated assistance. In an effort to be open-minded and generous- for the right commercial and legal reasons. They are spirited, may I say that I take the hon. Gentleman’s being penalised because of a flaw in the Government’s point that there are potential difficulties with the system thinking back in 2002. I do not believe it is appropriate I am proposing? It is difficult to frame amendments for that to continue. That is why I propose this cut in the that cover every eventuality, because the nature of the small companies rate from 21 per cent. to 20 per cent. process is that amendments have to be reasonably brief. That, again, will be funded through a reduction and We seek to give further assistance to particularly small simplification in capital allowances. I hope that the businesses, which may benefit from that help, given House will support amendment 2. that, as I was saying, 95 per cent. of businesses in the United Kingdom have five or fewer employees. Mr. Jeremy Browne: I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this part of our deliberations. I say at the outset that I was not criticising the hon. Member for David Taylor: I am a big admirer of the FSB and I use Fareham (Mr. Hoban) when I said his proposals were its website and services from time to time. Has it said modest: I was praising him, and it is precisely because whether there is any correlation between rateable value of their modesty that I feel able to support them. If they and profit? Why would it be sensible to use as a proxy had been unfunded—the right hon. Member for for a definition of small businesses something related to Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) suggested that we consider rateable value? Far better measures could be used, such a situation—that may have given us greater difficulty, particularly for organisations and small businesses that given the overall state of the public finances. are devolved in an electronic sense through good numbers of people working from home. How would that be That leads me neatly to this proposal, which, after all, handled? is largely an extension of our discussion on the previous clause. However, as it is slightly different, I shall speak at slighter greater length to it. According to the Federation Mr. Browne: One might seek to give the greatest of Small Businesses, there are 4.7 million small businesses encouragement to precisely those businesses. I take the in the UK, a remarkable 97 per cent. of firms employ hon. Gentleman’s point, and my doing so relates to the fewer than 20 people, and 95 per cent.—19 out of concession I was making only a moment ago; I only 20 companies in the United Kingdom; I am not talking regret that he did not take the opportunity to table an about 19 out of 20 employees—employ fewer than five amendment that he felt would be more effective in people, so the overwhelming majority of businesses and assisting the businesses I am trying to help. I think there enterprises in this country are extremely small employers. is broad agreement on the overall point that small More than 500,000 people start up their own businesses businesses contribute substantially to the UK economy, every year, small firms employ 58 per cent. of the and it is very much in our interests that that be recognised private sector work force, 13.5 million people work in in the tax structure. small firms, small firms contribute more than 50 per cent. of UK turnover, and 64 per cent. of commercial innovations come from small firms. 6.45 pm I rehearse those statistics because it is clear—this Mr. Hoban: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point is made so often that it is a truism—that small point about recognising the importance of small companies enterprises are extremely important to wealth creation in the tax structure, but could he elaborate a little more and employment opportunities. Thus, it is important as to the nature of his amendment and the relief that that we regard them as being a distinct entity for corporation would be granted to businesses that fell into this category? tax purposes. That point is widely accepted, which is Is he talking about a 10 or a 15 per cent. rate of why the Government have a different rate for them. For corporation tax for those businesses? It is not clear the same reasons that I cited in our previous discussion, where his thinking is heading on the additional relief we think that stability is important. If the Government that would be offered to them. 731 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 732

Mr. Browne: There would be an additional saving to that there is some merit in trying to think along those such businesses, and it would depend on the rateable lines. This has afforded me the opportunity to make value of the premises. An assessment would have to be that point. made of that rate, and the saving would accrue at that On the lead amendment, while I welcome the point. Even if you propose to let me press my amendment Government’s intention not to increase the rate, we to a Division, Mr. Hood, I do not intend to do so; I was think there is scope for decreasing the headline rate, seeking to make the point that there is merit in the based on tax-neutral assumptions and simplification of Conservatives’ proposal. I did not think it necessary to the system as a whole. table an identical amendment, because I am more than happy to give my party’s support to their suggestion. I Mr. Binley: Of all the things the Government have was seeking to explore ways in which we could help done in recent months, one of the worst is to increase particularly small companies that may benefit from corporate taxes for the small business sector. The timing additional assistance. If people feel there are multiple of this proposal has been disastrous, and the ways in which that can be achieved, I am open-minded Government—and many of their supporters—recognise on the matter and I hope that those will emerge during the problems. The increase has had a depressing effect this debate and our deliberations in Committee. on small businesses. It has prevented entrepreneurs from starting businesses, and it has certainly stopped Mr. Hoban rose— small businesses growing. We need to change that situation, and amendment 2 would help to do that. That is why I Mr. Binley rose— am so keen that it should be accepted. My main point concerns the importance of retained Mr. Browne: Should I give way to the Front-Bench profit to small businesses. Retained profit is the very spokesman? essence of their growth and survival. Small businesses tend not to have loans or be involved in over-complicated Mr. Binley: Better give way to seniority. financial support—they simply have an overdraft. Therefore, the amount of money left at the end of the year is a vital consideration for their future growth, and to their protection Mr. Hoban: I am not sure how my hon. Friend against bad debt. That is particularly relevant at this defines seniority, but could the hon. Gentleman make time. For small businesses, cash is king and the more his point a little clearer? He talked about the relief in that the Government take in corporation tax, the less relation to rateable value, which gave me the impression small businesses have to survive. The objective of most that he was talking about a reduction in the business small businesses is simply to be here next year, and the rates a small business would pay, as opposed to a Government could help enormously by accepting the reduction in its corporation tax bill. He left hanging in amendment. the air the question of what sort of relief he means in practice. The amendment would also help businesses looking to grasp the opportunities that will be provided by the green shoots when they come. I hope that the Chancellor’s Mr. Browne: If his intervention is directly related, I projections are right. I want to see the green shoots shall give way to the hon. Member for Northampton, sooner, rather than later, and a cut in corporation tax South (Mr. Binley). would better prepare small businesses to exploit those opportunities. I do not need to tell the Government Mr. Binley: It is. We should recognise that the seniority about the growth opportunities in small business, as to which I referred was with regard to pecking order, they have been well proved. The creativity of small rather than anything else. I welcome the general thrust businesses is very valuable for this country, and we need of the hon. Gentleman’s proposal; there is a need for a to have them in situ to support the supply chains for our more graded relationship to corporate taxation, particularly bigger plc companies. However, they will not be in situ for micro-companies. He has the good will of the if they do not survive, and we will lose that infrastructure. Committee in this respect, and I hope that the Government The amendment would be a small measure to encourage will take that on board. The proposal does need defining small businesses, because it would give them more cash further; introducing rateable value creates a more clumsy at the end of the year, which would help their survival arrangement when matters need to be simplified. and their growth when the recession ends.

Mr. Browne: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s Mr. Hoban: My hon. Friend will know from his intervention, because it perhaps gave the response that I experience running small businesses about the impact may have sought to give to his Front-Bench colleague. I that the Government’s change in their approach to hope that the Equality Bill, which we debated yesterday, small business taxation has had. From his viewpoint, will address any issues he may have about seniority and have the frequent changes over the last few years damaged discrimination in terms of pecking order. The intention the willingness of those businesses to invest and plan behind amendment 6 was not only to say that the for the long term? proposal to cut the headline rate had merit and that additional simplicity had virtue; it was also to consider Mr. Binley: My hon. Friend makes a vital point. whether, through this method, we could grade matters Many small businesses that were thinking in the longer further and target specific assistance on particularly term have ceased to do so. Many of them are simply small companies such as start-up and IT companies, looking to the next six to nine months in the hope that which have been mentioned. There is probably a feeling they will still be around. As I said, cash is king, and the that this may not necessarily be the best method, but amendment would provide a little more cash for such 733 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 734

[Mr. Binley] I thank the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne) for giving the statistics on the small business sector. It businesses at the end of the financial year to enable was a helpful tour d’horizon and has set the scene for survival, after which they can think about growth. They this debate. However, it does not emphasise enough that have to survive first, and that is the point that I wish to the problem faced by small and medium-sized businesses make to the Government. The amendment would give comes down, essentially, to the credit squeeze and their small businesses sizeable encouragement, which would inability to access credit to develop their businesses. be most welcome.

John Howell: I wonder whether my hon. Friend’s 7pm experience is similar to mine in that, because of the vulnerability of small and medium-sized companies, Mr. Jeremy Browne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman even the smallest amount of tax reduction has a huge for giving way, because he has only just started to speak. effect on them. I am also grateful for his kind words. The one other point that I omitted to make during my speech is that Mr. Binley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for most of the big multinational companies started as making that point, because it allows me to point out small businesses. The benefit of this sector is measurable that just a £2,000 bad debt can be the end of a very in terms of not only current small businesses but many small company. That sort of saving might ensure its companies, employing thousands of people, that had to survival, which is why I seek the Government’s support get off the ground initially. for the amendment. If that is not forthcoming, I hope they will think about this matter more constructively John Howell: The hon. Gentleman makes a good than they have to date. I am told that the road to point. We all need to bear in mind and to stress the Damascus is a most attractive route. support provided by the interrelationship between small and medium-sized companies and larger companies. Mr. Syms: Clause 8 is important and amendment 2 Many of the points that I made during our debate on would be very helpful. We have already heard how amendment 1 are just as relevant to amendment 2. important small businesses are—probably more for the Other hon. Members have mentioned the effect on employment they provide and the taxes thus generated, small businesses of uncertainty within the tax system rather than for their profits and corporation tax purposes. and the need to get rid of that, as well as of the system’s Many companies in the small business sector are under- inherent complexity. Indeed, I would argue that those capitalised. It is therefore important that when they two elements are especially important considerations make money, it be retained within the business. Many of for the small business sector. the capitalist entrepreneurs who run such companies Getting rid of uncertainty is vital and there is no pay the tax and leave the money in the company instead benefit to anyone in maintaining a complex tax system of taking a dividend, so that the company can grow. for small businesses driven by entrepreneurs. It is totally If we are to get through these economic problems, we unnecessary to make things complicated or more expensive. will need people who are determined, who are good Entrepreneurs can be a funny bunch. They are very managers and who have a vision for running a business. focused on their idea. I am sure that there are some very Many small businesses do not make a profit, but giving good examples of such people on the Conservative a signal to the small business sector by reducing, rather Benches and that they will take these comments in good than increasing, the rate is potentially very important. spirit. That focus is the whole reason why their business Many people are in business out of sheer awkwardness— ideas come up and why they are successful. However, as they have run the business for years and are determined well as doing all the things that a business needs, they to keep faith with their employees. Those people are also have to undertake a range of other activities, from looking for better times ahead. Many of them have being the head cook and bottle washer to being the risked their homes, put off holidays and even ruined bookkeeper. I know that—I have been there and have marriages over their businesses, so it is important that experienced the pressures of going out and getting we give them a signal that they will be able to retain business while ensuring that the cash flow is working more of what they do make in profit. and that there is back-up. The Budget presented a Today’s small business is the potential medium or handful of measures for the small business sector, but it large company of tomorrow. We have seen several examples did not address the important issue of cash flow. The over the past 10 to 15 years of small businesses growing amendment seeks to address that problem. and providing many jobs and innovation. It is important Earlier, reference was made to comments from the to tend, encourage and provide direction for small Federation of Small Businesses and its chairman, John businesses so that they provide jobs, make profits and Wright. The quotation was: produce a return for those who take the risks. “In what has been the most crucial budget in decades, the FSB The Government are already set on a course of is disappointed that small businesses have been largely ignored”. raising national insurance on employees. That is not the The most important word in that quotation is “crucial”. right approach, but the amendment would enable us to His point is borne out in the quotation from the chief reinvigorate and encourage small businesses, which will, executive of the Forum of Private Business, who said: we hope, be the great successes of tomorrow. “The Chancellor has missed a vital opportunity to produce a John Howell: I wish to draw Members’ attention to Budget for business survival”. my entry in the register, as I am the director of a family That point has already been made eloquently by my company—my own family company, for the sake of hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, South clarification. (Mr. Binley). That point is crucial, because this is about 735 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 736 survival. Many of our small businesses are just surviving, their overstatement of the significance of the small and the rate reduction could be of extreme benefit to companies rate. They have also underestimated the them. important measures that the Government have put in We like to think in terms of protecting vulnerable place to support small businesses specifically—in fact, institutions but we rarely think of small businesses as they have rather ignored them. vulnerable. Last night, I was privileged to have in the The UK has about 4.7 million small businesses, three House members of the Henley-on-Thames partnership, quarters of which are made up of self-employed people many of whom represent small and medium-sized who would therefore not benefit from a reduction in the businesses in and around the town. They individually small companies rate of corporation tax. About 400,000 employ relatively small numbers of people, but collectively companies pay no corporation tax, so they would not they make a major contribution to the life of the town benefit either. The small companies rate is, in reality, a and to its business life in particular. small profits rate. Any company with profits up to In small towns such as Henley, lay-offs are personal. £300,000 benefits from that lower rate, regardless of its People know each other there and there is a family size. atmosphere, even when the companies are not necessarily We are introducing a wide range of measures to owned by the same families, among the companies that support businesses in the downturn, including additional work and do business in the town. It is crucial to reduce targeted support for new investment through the temporary the threat that any possible downturn could pose to increase in the main capital allowance rate to 40 per those companies. Anything that can improve the cash cent., which is a significant boon for many businesses. flow, as amendment 2 does, is to be welcomed. As I said at the beginning, the vulnerability of such Mr. Binley: May I point out the case of a small companies results principally from a lack of credit. company in my constituency that sells wood-burning However, many are vulnerable because they have already fires for companies? They cost £200,000 whereas the had to make cuts in order to save costs. In some cases very big ones cost £500,000. A sizeable grant is available, they have laid people off, and in others they have found but what I hear is, “People cannot afford the stuff even different means to make savings. Also, as a result of the though they get a very good grant.” That is what I mean recession, many of the service sectors are already witnessing about survival. People are not spending, even though a decline in the number of people seeking their business. the grant incentive is sizeable. Would he accept that? When businesses have made all those efforts and cuts in order to stay afloat, it does not go down well at all when Mr. Timms: I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s they see the money that they have saved going on higher conclusion, and I was about to make an extremely taxes. That is nonsense for them. They do not understand important point about the effectiveness of HMRC’s it and it does not encourage entrepreneurs into the business payment support service, which we introduced system, particularly to begin start-ups. in November. It has addressed exactly his concerns about the survival of businesses, as it means that those Mr. Binley: I am listening intently to my hon. Friend’s businesses that for cash-flow reasons need to or would speech, and I congratulate him. I meet many small like to defer a tax payment can do so by ringing up business people who are beginning to despair and feel HMRC. Very often, they can make an agreement on the that the burdens are getting too heavy for them to spot in that call. More than 100,000 companies have continue the journey. This is about spirit as well as benefited from the scheme, and between them they have money; it is about giving a sign of encouragement as deferred about £2.3 billion in tax. It is undoubtedly the well as taxation. Does my hon. Friend agree? case that a significant number of companies that would have “given up”, to quote the hon. Member for John Howell: I completely agree. An important point Northampton, South (Mr. Binley), in the downturn that emerged in our debate on the headline corporation have been able to survive, go on to do well and keep up tax rate concerned its importance as a signal of the with their repayments as well. country’s competitiveness. In this case, we are giving out a signal about the importance of a very vulnerable Mr. Binley: The Minister is most generous in giving sector, which lives on the margins, as my hon. Friend way again, and I am most grateful. I accept the value of has described so well. I, too, meet representatives from the benefits that the Minister has outlined—it would be many businesses in a similar situation in my constituency churlish not to—but my point is that the customers of and as I go around the country. the business to which I referred say that, even though I have never been in despair about the business, but I they get a lot of grant, they simply do not have the know that one has to deal with many things as part of money that they need to put in themselves. They get a running a business while yet more tasks are piled on 40 per cent. grant, but they cannot afford the remainder, top. The lack of recognition and appreciation of the however they might want to pay it. role played by small businesses in the economy bites into one’s enthusiasm and energy. The amendment sends Mr. Timms: We are undoubtedly in a very serious a powerful signal to a business sector on which we all world economic downturn, and the measures that the rely. Government have taken are helping to support the economy through it. I was speaking to an accountant Mr. Timms: Opposition Members are right to underline yesterday, and he told me that his colleagues who work the crucial importance of small businesses to the UK in liquidation are less busy this year than they were last economy and I agree with those points, as well as with year. He thought that that was because of the success of their points about the large proportion of UK employment the business payment support service and the large provided by small businesses. However, I disagree with number of companies that have gained a significant 737 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 738

[Mr. Timms] changes proposed by the Treasury for the years to come will be that the owners of such businesses will have even cash-flow benefit from it. The service has been very less incentive and available collateral to grow them? valuable for business survival, and its scope was widened Businesses like that are very often run by a single further in the Budget. individual using his own pocket and energies, so being The hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) spoke taxed at a much higher level post £150,000 of earnings about the fairness of the UK’s corporation tax arrangements will cause them to suffer most. Does he agree that, as a for small companies. At £300,000, the UK threshold for result, the growth of small businesses that is so crucial the small company rate is the highest in the G7. It is to the economy will be undermined? perfectly true that rates in some other countries are lower, though not many are. For example, the small Mr. Timms: No, I do not agree with that. The companies rate in the US is 15 per cent., but that applies entrepreneurs whom I know and admire earn a long to only about £30,000 of profit, compared with £300,000 way short of £150,000 a year. Moreover, the owners of in the UK. The fact that the threshold in Britain is the businesses occupying premises with quite low rateable highest in any of the G7 countries means that companies values will not, on the whole, have earnings of over making a profit of, say, £250,000, or up to the threshold £150,000 a year. For those reasons, I do not agree with pay the lowest marginal rate on that profit in the G7. the hon. Gentleman. Finally, as we discussed earlier, we performed very well I hope that I have demonstrated to the House’s in an international analysis of competitiveness. satisfaction that the amendments would not help the majority of small businesses. They do not recognise The amendments proposed by the hon. Member for the importance of fairness, which is a very important Fareham would raise a serious problem of fairness. He consideration in tax matters. In addition, the debate did acknowledged, I think, the problems that arose when not properly reflect the impact of the substantial measures the small companies rate was reduced significantly, as that the Government have put in place to support small the result was a large incidence of businesses being businesses. I hope that the House will decline to agree incorporated, which was motivated purely by tax. The the amendments. problem with his amendment 2 is that it would return us to precisely that problem. Mr. Hoban: This has been a useful debate, especially It would not be fair to encourage people to incorporate in having drawn on the experience of my hon. Friends purely to gain an advantage in terms of tax and national the Members for Poole (Mr. Syms), for Henley (John insurance payments. We have set out a range of measures Howell) and for Northampton, South (Mr. Binley), to make the tax system fairer across all small businesses, who have all been involved in small businesses. My and to reduce the competitive disadvantage faced by experience before entering Parliament was largely confined unincorporated businesses. The amendment would make to large businesses; in my professional practice, I had that disadvantage greater. little contact with small businesses, but I have got to The number of incorporations per year increased know the sector well in my role as a constituency from 230,000 to 320,000 with the introduction of the Member of Parliament. zero per cent. starting rate. They reached a record high I have a great deal of respect for small business men, of 450,000 in 2006-07, but they have declined since, because they really do put themselves on the line in following the increase in the small company rate. The growing their businesses and taking day-to-day amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Fareham responsibility, not only for their own future, but for that would reignite the problem, which would be unfair and of their staff. My conversations with them over the past a mistake. few months have brought home to me how tough they are finding it to survive in the present economic climate. They are worried about their cash flow, for example. 7.15 pm The Financial Secretary talked the tax payment deferral The amendments also pose a substantial fiscal risk—by scheme, which I welcome, but before the Government the way, I accept that the hon. Member for Fareham has announced their scheme, the Conservatives proposed a got his arithmetic correct this year—because, as the six-month deferral of payment of VAT, recognising the hon. Gentleman indicated, a permanent reduction in importance of cash flows. The hon. Member for Taunton the rate would cost something like £500 million per (Mr. Browne) talked about smaller businesses. We also year. He suggested that more changes to capital allowances proposed measures on national insurance that particularly would pay for that, but he did not give us any information affected micro-businesses employing four or fewer members about what they would be. I simply point him to the of staff. concerns that I expressed when we debated similar There is a judgment call to be made on the small changes to the previous clause. companies’ tax rate. The Minister is right to point out I agree with the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne) that not all small companies are small businesses. He about the crucial importance of very small companies says that there are 4.7 million small businesses in this to the UK economy, although he accepted that his country, three quarters of which are unincorporated, amendment 6 might not be the best way to identify leaving about 1.2 million small companies, of which them. I was not quite clear about what relief he had in 400,000 pay no corporation tax. We are therefore talking mind, but he made some important points. about 800,000 businesses across the country that fall into the small companies’ rate of taxation. This debate Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) is important to them. (Con): The Minister professed the crucial importance We have to decide the extent to which we should be of small and growing businesses, but is he not concerned focusing on how people used incorporation for tax that one of the biggest impacts of the income tax planning and crack down on that, or incentivising those 739 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 740 small companies that incorporated for legitimate economic Burt, Lorely Lewis, Dr. Julian and legal reasons. That is where the division is between Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian the Conservative party and the Government. The Cash, Mr. William Lidington, Mr. David Government see incorporation of small companies as a Chope, Mr. Christopher Lilley, rh Mr. Peter way of managing down tax bills and not paying what is Clappison, Mr. James Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn fair. In my view, and that of my hon. Friends who have Clark, Greg Luff, Peter Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew had experience of running small companies, the increase Curry, rh Mr. David MacNeil, Mr. Angus in the small companies’ rate is not a matter of fairness. Davies, Mr. Dai Main, Anne We believe that the increase is having an impact on their Davies, Philip Malins, Mr. Humfrey ability to retain profits which, as my hon. Friend the Davis, rh David Maples, Mr. John Member for Northampton, South said, is important to Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Mason, John their ability to build up reserves for the future and to Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Mates, rh Mr. Michael fund investment. Dorries, Nadine McIntosh, Miss Anne In our judgment, the small companies’ rate of taxation Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick should fall, to incentivise genuine small companies and Dunne, Mr. Philip Mercer, Patrick encourage their growth and future development. The Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Miller, Mrs. Maria Evans, Mr. Nigel Mitchell, Mr. Andrew rate should not be increased, as the Government would Evennett, Mr. David Moore, Mr. Michael use it, as a means of cracking down on tax avoidance. Fabricant, Michael Moss, Mr. Malcolm That is the dividing line between the Conservative party, Fallon, Mr. Michael Mulholland, Greg which wants to support entrepreneurs, and the Government, Field, Mr. Mark Mundell, David who have seen fit to crack down on them by increasing Francois, Mr. Mark Murrison, Dr. Andrew the small companies’ rate of corporation tax. The Fraser, Christopher Neill, Robert Government’s argument on tax-motivated incorporation Gale, Mr. Roger Newmark, Mr. Brooks is, I think, an excuse for a revenue-raising measure, Garnier, Mr. Edward O’Brien, Mr. Stephen increasing the tax take from small businesses. They have Gauke, Mr. David Oaten, Mr. Mark sought to compensate for the increase through the George, Andrew Öpik, Lembit annual investment allowance, but that is available to all Gibb, Mr. Nick Osborne, Mr. George businesses, not just small companies, so on average Gidley, Sandra Paice, Mr. James small companies will be worse off as a consequence of Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Paterson, Mr. Owen Goldsworthy, Julia Penning, Mike the changes that the Government have announced. Goodman, Mr. Paul Penrose, John Because we want to support entrepreneurs and because Goodwill, Mr. Robert Pickles, Mr. Eric we recognise that people have set up limited companies Gove, Michael Pritchard, Mark for genuine purposes, and not only for the purpose that Gray, Mr. James Redwood, rh Mr. John the Minister says, we want the small companies’ rate of Grayling, Chris Reid, Mr. Alan corporation tax to be reduced. We have set out clearly Green, Damian Rennie, Willie how we would fund the reduction through reforming Grieve, Mr. Dominic Robathan, Mr. Andrew the system of capital allowances—our proposals are Hague, rh Mr. William Robertson, Angus costed. I shall press the amendment to a Division, Hammond, Mr. Philip Robertson, Mr. Laurence because it is important to send a clear signal to this Hancock, Mr. Mike Rogerson, Dan Hands, Mr. Greg Rosindell, Andrew country’s small companies that we have their interests at Harper, Mr. Mark Rowen, Paul heart—we do not regard them as tax dodgers or tax Harris, Dr. Evan Russell, Bob avoiders and we want them to flourish and continue to Heath, Mr. David Sanders, Mr. Adrian grow. That is my party’s policy; it is not the Government’s Heathcoat-Amory, rh Scott, Mr. Lee policy. I therefore ask my hon. Friends to vote for Mr. David Selous, Andrew amendment 2. Hendry, Charles Shepherd, Mr. Richard Question put, That the amendment be made. Herbert, Nick Simpson, Mr. Keith Hoban, Mr. Mark Smith, Sir Robert The Committee proceeded to a Division. Hollobone, Mr. Philip Soames, Mr. Nicholas Horam, Mr. John Spelman, Mrs. Caroline The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sylvia Horwood, Martin Spicer, Sir Michael Heal): I ask the Sergeant at Arms investigate the delay Hosie, Stewart Spink, Bob in the No Lobby. Howarth, David Stanley, rh Sir John Howarth, Mr. Gerald Steen, Mr. Anthony The Committee having divided: Ayes 180, Noes 294. Howell, John Streeter, Mr. Gary Division No. 118] [7.24 pm Huhne, Chris Stunell, Andrew Hunter, Mark Swayne, Mr. Desmond AYES Jack, rh Mr. Michael Swinson, Jo Afriyie, Adam Blunt, Mr. Crispin Jackson, Mr. Stewart Swire, Mr. Hugo Alexander, Danny Bone, Mr. Peter Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Syms, Mr. Robert Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Boswell, Mr. Tim Keetch, Mr. Paul Tapsell, Sir Peter Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Brake, Tom Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Taylor, Dr. Richard Baker, Norman Brazier, Mr. Julian Key, Robert Teather, Sarah Baldry, Tony Brokenshire, James Kirkbride, Miss Julie Timpson, Mr. Edward Barrett, John Browne, Mr. Jeremy Knight, rh Mr. Greg Tredinnick, David Beith, rh Sir Alan Browning, Angela Kramer, Susan Turner, Mr. Andrew Bellingham, Mr. Henry Bruce, rh Malcolm Lamb, Norman Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Bercow, John Burns, Mr. Simon Lansley, Mr. Andrew Vara, Mr. Shailesh Binley, Mr. Brian Burt, Alistair Laws, Mr. David Wallace, Mr. Ben 741 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 742

Waterson, Mr. Nigel Williams, Mr. Roger Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Meale, Mr. Alan Watkinson, Angela Williams, Stephen Heyes, David Merron, Gillian Webb, Steve Wilson, Mr. Rob Hill, rh Keith Michael, rh Alun Weir, Mr. Mike Wilson, Sammy Hillier, Meg Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Whittingdale, Mr. John Wishart, Pete Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Miller, Andrew Wiggin, Bill Young, rh Sir George Hoey, Kate Mitchell, Mr. Austin Willetts, Mr. David Tellers for the Ayes: Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Moffatt, Laura Williams, Hywel James Duddridge and Hope, Phil Morgan, Julie Williams, Mark Jeremy Wright Howarth, rh Mr. George Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Howells, rh Dr. Kim Mudie, Mr. George Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Mullin, Mr. Chris NOES Hughes, rh Beverley Munn, Meg Abbott, Ms Diane Cunningham, Mr. Jim Humble, Mrs. Joan Murphy, Mr. Denis Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Cunningham, Tony Hutton, rh Mr. John Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire Iddon, Dr. Brian Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Anderson, Janet David, Mr. Wayne Illsley, Mr. Eric Norris, Dan Armstrong, rh Hilary Davidson, Mr. Ian Ingram, rh Mr. Adam O’Brien, Mr. Mike Atkins, Charlotte Davies, Mr. Quentin Irranca-Davies, Huw O’Hara, Mr. Edward Austin, Mr. Ian Dean, Mrs. Janet Jackson, Glenda Olner, Mr. Bill Austin, John Denham, rh Mr. John James, Mrs. Siân C. Osborne, Sandra Bailey, Mr. Adrian Devine, Mr. Jim Jenkins, Mr. Brian Owen, Albert Baird, Vera Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Johnson, Ms Diana R. Palmer, Dr. Nick Balls, rh Ed Dismore, Mr. Andrew Jones, Helen Pearson, Ian Banks, Gordon Dobbin, Jim Jones, Mr. Kevan Plaskitt, Mr. James Barlow, Ms Celia Dobson, rh Frank Jones, Lynne Pope, Mr. Greg Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Jones, Mr. Martyn Prentice, Mr. Gordon Battle, rh John Doran, Mr. Frank Jowell, rh Tessa Prescott, rh Mr. John Bayley, Hugh Dowd, Jim Joyce, Mr. Eric Primarolo, rh Dawn Beckett, rh Margaret Drew, Mr. David Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Prosser, Gwyn Begg, Miss Anne Eagle, Angela Keeble, Ms Sally Purnell, rh James Bell, Sir Stuart Eagle, Maria Keen, Ann Rammell, Bill Benton, Mr. Joe Efford, Clive Kelly, rh Ruth Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Berry, Roger Ellman, Mrs. Louise Kemp, Mr. Fraser Reed, Mr. Andy Betts, Mr. Clive Engel, Natascha Kennedy, rh Jane Reed, Mr. Jamie Blackman, Liz Ennis, Jeff Khan, Mr. Sadiq Riordan, Mrs. Linda Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Etherington, Bill Kidney, Mr. David Robertson, John Blizzard, Mr. Bob Farrelly, Paul Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Borrow, Mr. David S. Field, rh Mr. Frank Knight, rh Jim Rooney, Mr. Terry Bradshaw, Mr. Ben Fisher, Mark Kumar, Dr. Ashok Roy, Mr. Frank Brown, Lyn Fitzpatrick, Jim Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Roy, Lindsay Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Flello, Mr. Robert Lammy, rh Mr. David Ruane, Chris Brown, Mr. Russell Flint, rh Caroline Laxton, Mr. Bob Ruddock, Joan Browne, rh Des Flynn, Paul Lazarowicz, Mark Russell, Christine Bryant, Chris Follett, Barbara Lepper, David Ryan, rh Joan Buck, Ms Karen Foster, Mr. Michael Levitt, Tom Salter, Martin Burden, Richard (Worcester) Lewis, Mr. Ivan Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Burgon, Colin Foster, Michael Jabez Linton, Martin Seabeck, Alison Burnham, rh Andy (Hastings and Rye) Lloyd, Tony Sharma, Mr. Virendra Butler, Ms Dawn Francis, Dr. Hywel Love, Mr. Andrew Shaw, Jonathan Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Gardiner, Barry Lucas, Ian Sheridan, Jim Caborn, rh Mr. Richard George, rh Mr. Bruce Mackinlay, Andrew Simon, Mr. Siôn Cairns, David Gerrard, Mr. Neil Malik, Mr. Shahid Simpson, Alan Campbell, Mr. Alan Gibson, Dr. Ian Mann, John Singh, Mr. Marsha Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Gilroy, Linda Marris, Rob Skinner, Mr. Dennis Caton, Mr. Martin Godsiff, Mr. Roger Marsden, Mr. Gordon Slaughter, Mr. Andy Cawsey, Mr. Ian Goggins, Paul Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Challen, Colin Goodman, Helen Martlew, Mr. Eric Smith, Ms Angela C. Chapman, Ben Griffith, Nia McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Clark, Paul Griffiths, Nigel McCabe, Steve Smith, Angela E. (Basildon) Clarke,rhMr.Tom Gwynne, Andrew McCafferty, Chris Smith, Geraldine Clelland, Mr. David Hain, rh Mr. Peter McCarthy, Kerry Smith, rh Jacqui Clwyd, rh Ann Hall, Mr. Mike McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Snelgrove, Anne Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hall, Patrick McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Soulsby, Sir Peter Coffey, Ann Hamilton, Mr. David McDonagh, Siobhain Southworth, Helen Cohen, Harry Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McDonnell, John Spellar, rh Mr. John Connarty, Michael Hanson, rh Mr. David McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Cooper, Rosie Harris, Mr. Tom McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Stewart, Ian Cooper, rh Yvette Havard, Mr. Dai McIsaac, Shona Stoate, Dr. Howard Cousins, Jim Healey, rh John McKechin, Ann Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Creagh, Mary Hendrick, Mr. Mark McKenna, Rosemary Stringer, Graham Cryer, Mrs. Ann Hepburn, Mr. Stephen McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Stuart, Ms Gisela Cummings, John Hesford, Stephen Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry 743 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 744

Tami, Mark Ward, Claire review could take place only after the effects of the Taylor, Ms Dari Watts, Mr. Dave policy had been experienced, so it is not as immediate as Taylor, David Whitehead, Dr. Alan the change proposed in amendment 7 or, indeed, a Thomas, Mr. Gareth Williams, rh Mr. Alan proposal to reject the clause as a whole. However, it Thornberry, Emily Williams, Mrs. Betty provides a useful opportunity to discuss the Government’s Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Wills, rh Mr. Michael strategy as a whole. Many right hon. and hon. Members Tipping, Paddy Wilson, Phil Todd, Mr. Mark Winnick, Mr. David will be familiar with that strategy. Touhig, rh Mr. Don Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun The Government are running a massive deficit— Trickett, Jon Woolas, Mr. Phil £175 billion this financial year, and £173 billion in the Turner, Dr. Desmond Wright, Mr. Anthony next financial year, if their assumptions are correct—so Turner, Mr. Neil Wright, David there is a legitimate debate to be had about the extent to Twigg, Derek Wright, Mr. Iain which the Government can afford to borrow more to Ussher, Kitty Wright, Dr. Tony stimulate the economy. My party’s view is that there is Vaz, rh Keith Wyatt, Derek merit in fiscal stimulus—trying to inject an extra boost Vis, Dr. Rudi Tellers for the Noes: into the economy will help us to get through the recession Walley, Joan Barbara Keeley and quicker, and the best way we can address our public Waltho, Lynda Chris Mole finance deficit is to get the economy growing again. After that, we will have to ask questions about additional Question accordingly negatived. tax revenue, and about savings in the public sector. The Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill. immediate task, however, is to get through the recession and out the other end, growing strongly again. Some sort of fiscal stimulus, in my party’s view, is the right Clause 9 way forward, if it is affordable.

EXTENSION OF REDUCED STANDARD RATE AND ANTI- 7.45 pm AVOIDANCE PROVISION Mr. Nicholas Soames (Mid-Sussex) (Con): Without Mr. Jeremy Browne: I beg to move amendment 8, wanting to make a point about it, I agree about the need page 4, line 2, at end insert— for fiscal stimulus. Before every Budget, I survey almost ‘(1A) The Chancellor of the Exchequer must, not later than every business in my constituency and this year, for the 1 April 2010, compile and lay before the House of Commons a first time, that survey received an extremely high response report containing an assessment of the impact of the temporary rate. Everyone who responded on the VAT cut was VAT rate reduction on— extremely critical of it. Does the hon. Gentleman (a) UK economic growth, acknowledge that that change is not one that commands (b) the competitiveness of small and medium-sized universal support across the country and that it was not businesses, and the right thing to do? (c) the disposable income of low-income households, for the period during which the rate reduction had effect. Mr. Browne: I not only acknowledge but completely (1B) A Minister of the Crown must, not later than 1 May 2010, agree with that. make a motion in the House of Commons in relation to the The starting point for us, for the Government and for report.’. others was whether it was possible to afford some sort I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on a of fiscal stimulus. The answer, in our view, was yes, subject that most people would regard as a central although it would be limited in scope because of the feature of our debate on the Finance Bill—the state of the public finances. The question that then Government’s decision to use a reduction in VAT as a arose was what form that fiscal stimulus should take. way of injecting extra money into the economy and The Government’s view, as I understand it, was that a trying to deal with the recession. Members will be VAT cut would be a good way to go, partly because it familiar with many of the arguments, but before I make could be introduced speedily—no doubt the Minister some slightly more general comments, I shall just explain will put the Government’s case; I do not with to misrepresent the amendments that I tabled. Amendment 7, which has it, but I will explain my view. They thought a VAT cut not been selected, but which appears on the amendment would incentivise people to spend money, which would paper—I hope I am not out of order, Mrs. Heal, if I provide the sort of stimulus they believed would be briefly mention it, because it illustrates the direction in advantageous in the short term. They also believed it which I am seeking to move Government policy—seeks would be beneficial for individual consumers. I remember to bring forward the day on which the VAT reduction their making the case when it was introduced that it from 17.5 to 15 per cent. ceased to apply to the date on would save money for typical households, and we were which the Bill receives Royal Assent, which we believe is given examples of those savings. However, when some the earliest conceivable date on which that temporary retailers did not pass on the VAT reduction, the Government reduction could be ended. The amendment was not then made the case that it helped the margins of those accepted for entirely understandable reasons to do with retailers. I accept that there was a degree of truth in the revenue implications, but it nevertheless remains our Government’s position, even though to some extent intention to try to encourage or force the Government they were having their cake and eating it: when the VAT to bring forward that measure to the earliest possible cut was passed on, it would help consumers, and when date. it was not, it would help retailers and businesses. Amendment 8 is much more wide-ranging and benign, That, as I understand it, was the Government’s case and provides an opportunity to review the success or for the VAT cut. It is not a case that my party finds otherwise of the Government’s policy. Inevitably, such a compelling, and that view is shared by many hon. 745 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 746

[Mr. Jeremy Browne] Mr. Browne: That is an entirely fair point. Parking charges are a good example, which leads on from the Members, including Government Members. There are point made by my hon. Friend the Member for numerous reasons for that but, first, the Government Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik). By and large, parking unfortunately cut VAT in the run-up to Christmas, charges are rounded to a sensible hourly rate. A reduction when retailers were heavily discounting their products. of 2 per cent. would mean that instead of paying Many companies were introducing cuts of 20, 25, 30 or £1.50 an hour, a person would pay—somebody else 35 per cent. and, in that context, the 2.5 per cent. should do the maths—£1.47 or whatever. People might reduction was rather modest. It may have led to a small prefer to pay £1.50 rather than £1.47 or have difficulty extra saving for consumers, but it was unlikely to provoke in paying the precise amount. Many local authorities them to make a purchase that they would not otherwise would think it easier to stick at £1.50, so in such cases have made. The cuts introduced by the retailers themselves the benefit was not passed on to the consumer. were substantially greater than the VAT cut. No doubt opposition parties of all colours in the There was the serious issue, too, of the administrative authority would then criticise the administrating party burdens placed on businesses as a result of the VAT cut. for not passing on the VAT cut to consumers, even A number of businesses sought to reprice their goods, though it would have been administratively burdensome and if they were priced in a catalogue that had already for the authority to do so. The money would be absorbed been printed or if a similar approach had been taken, by the local authority, so I suppose that the Government that presented even greater problems for those businesses. would argue that the local authority would have more I went into a shop in my constituency where the company money to spend on other services. However, I am not introduced the discount, but did not mark it on the sure that the money flowed through the system as neatly price that appeared on the product, as that would have as the Government would have wished. resulted in extra burdens. I remember buying a birthday card for someone for £2, and I paid with two £1 coins. I Mr. Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth, East) (Con): The was given 4p change because the shop had kept the hon. Gentleman and I both have constituencies in the marked price as £2, but I was given a discount, to reflect south-west, where the biggest industry is tourism. He the temporary VAT reduction, which I had not anticipated. mentioned small and medium-sized businesses. There Up to a point, I appreciated it, but I did not necessarily are 200,000 such businesses involved in tourism and I feel incentivised to buy another card once I knew that have not found one that has embraced the change that another 4p was there for the taking. I suppose I had 4p we are discussing. It has actually cost them more—they more to spend on other goods and services, but I am not have had to change their online basket systems and the sure that the effect on the economy as a whole, even if pricings and so forth. They would relish the opportunity everyone received that benefit, was as great as the to have the measure thrown out as soon as possible. Government hoped. Mr. Browne: The hon. Gentleman makes a good Lembit Öpik: I very much agree with my hon. Friend’s point. To follow on from that made by the hon. Member point, but is there not another marketing consideration? for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames), I should say that my Something that had cost £11.99 should cost about experience—other Members’ experiences may be £11.73 after the VAT cut but, as we all know, the different—is that there are two reactions to the reduction. price points are heavily determined by marketing One is hostility, which the hon. Member for Bournemouth, considerations—the prices tend to end with “99” and so East (Mr. Ellwood) described; the other is indifference. on. Does my hon. Friend agree that the benefit of the I have not met anyone who feels zealous enthusiasm for VAT cut will almost inevitably gravitate back to the the Government’s policy. Some regard it as making no companies and businesses as they revert to the standard difference whatever to their business or the assumptions pricing points? No one can pretend that £11.73 is a that they make; others regard it as burdensome and natural pricing point or that it has any marketing advantage. troublesome and, if they went to great lengths to Mr. Browne: I take my hon. Friend’s point. Many accommodate the reduction, are not looking forward to retailers round their prices to a sensible point and then having to put the rate back up again. discount a penny to make them look more attractive. A lot of the margins might be greater than the VAT Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Local authorities, of reduction, so the reduction might not have been felt in course, could reduce the council tax as a result of the way envisaged by the Government. With small having collected more money from parking charges and items—I just gave the example of a birthday card—the so on. Does the hon. Gentleman have any idea which saving to the consumer is small. With big items such as tax his party would reduce to balance out the 2.5 per a new car, the saving would be greater. However, it is cent. VAT increase that it wants? Alternatively, would it worth mentioning that car retailers were so desperate to use the additional money to cut borrowing? turn over more of their products that the discounts by and large were bigger than the VAT reduction that was Mr. Browne: I do not want to incur Mrs. Heal’s meant to incentivise consumers. wrath, so I will not extend the debate to local government finance. However, in due course I shall discuss possible Mr. Syms: The hon. Gentleman has talked about alternatives to the VAT cut, because that is very much costs to small businesses, but there are also the costs to within the scope of amendment 8. local authorities, which charge for a range of services such as car parking spaces. Some such charges have Mr. Ellwood: Another aspect of the issue, to which VAT implications. That created costs for local government, the hon. Gentleman may come, is the date itself. The which had to reduce lots of charges to be able to comply VAT change is unpopular, but most people are enjoying quickly with what the Government wanted. a drink on new year’s eve, and no small or medium-sized 747 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 748 business, particularly in the tourism industry—pubs almost exactly £1 billion a month. Amendment 7 is not and so forth—wants to start changing tills when Big within the prescribed boundaries of our deliberations, Ben is striking midnight. but I was keen for it to take effect because that would have saved the taxpayer about £4 billion or £5 billion, Mr. Browne: The hon. Gentleman makes an entirely depending on the precise date of Royal Assent. The legitimate point, which I have heard him make in other clock is ticking. If we are to try to come up with a more debates. The Minister needs to engage with it. New effective way to spend the fiscal stimulus, then every day year’s eve may well be the worst possible date of the that passes we have roughly £30 million less to play with year to pick—365 options, and the Government pick than we would have done had we made that decision a the worst one of the lot. Clearly, there are cost implications day earlier. in pushing the date backwards—[Interruption.] I accept that the hon. Gentleman was not making a point about cost, but a practical one about businesses that trade 8pm beyond midnight into the new year and how they would Stewart Hosie: Would the hon. Gentleman like his manage to adjust. proposed assessment to include the Treasury’s own The broader point is that businesses as a whole—and, forecasts, run through the input-output model, of various in some cases, even individuals—have either found the options set against the VAT cut, showing how many change burdensome or have not noticed it at all. I doubt more jobs might have been saved through direct capital whether many people have changed their behaviour as a expenditure, and what difference an income tax cut result of the measure. I take the point made repeatedly might have made in terms of GDP growth or jobs by the Government—people might have a little more saved? money to spend and not consciously realise that they are changing their behaviour. They may buy one thing Mr. Browne: Yes; the hon. Gentleman is very helpful. at the end of the week that they might not otherwise Although it is tempting—and, I hope legitimate, have bought because the accrual of all the 4ps saved Mrs. Heal—to have a wide-ranging debate on VAT, it is when buying cards and other bits and pieces might also useful to dwell on the amendment. That is precisely make them think, “I might buy one more birthday card the sort of consideration that the review should examine. because I am suddenly feeling a bit more affluent.” My What strikes me as extraordinary is that a civil servant suspicion, however, is that even at a subconscious level, asked to come up with a £12 billion or £13 billion tax very few people have acted as the Government would cut could not have come up with one that had less have wished. impact on the public consciousness. If the Government were seeking, albeit with borrowed money, to give away Lembit Öpik: Given my hon. Friend’s sage and insightful that amount of extra money to the taxpayer, they could observations, he may be amazed that at today’s sitting have taken roughly 3p off the basic rate of tax for a of the Business and Enterprise Committee, it was claimed year. They might not have thought that that was the that the VAT reduction had increased economic activity right way to go, or they might have felt that it did not by £8,000 million to £9,000 million. What is my hon. stimulate the economy in the way that they had intended, Friend’s view of that heady claim? but every time people got their payslip at the end of the week or month, they would have noticed the sizeable Mr. Browne: It would probably be better to hear the reduction. Minister’s view of that claim; it does not accord with my experiences—or, apparently, those of other Members The most problematic aspect of the VAT cut, which it taking part in our deliberations. would be interesting to examine in a review, is that it did not have the effect of giving people additional confidence: Others may wish to dwell at greater length on the the mental sense that they had additional money in impact on business, but I have sought to make that their pockets. Part of the reason for the Government’s point. My central point about the public finances—the changes was to try to give people a sense that things Government’s finances—is the cost of the measure and were not so bad, that there was a bit more money to whether the opportunity cost represents a good decision spend, that they could go out there and spend it, and by the Government. In all our deliberations on the that that would be a self-fulfilling prophecy in its impact Finance Bill, we have to return to the big elephant in the on the economy. I do not think that that has proved to room: this year, we are running a public sector deficit of be the case, although others may disagree. If there were £175 billion. That is £480 million every single day, and a cut in the basic rate of income tax, people might £20 million every hour; since we started our deliberations choose to save the money. The Government would say this afternoon, close to £100 million has been added to that cutting VAT means that people get the benefits the public debt. The figures are enormous. only if they spend money—they were keen to encourage There may be some scope for a fiscal stimulus, although, people to spend, and continue to be so. However, as I have said, it is fairly small. We have to make sure psychologically, it did not have the impact that it could that we get the maximum value from the money being have had as regards people feeling that they had more spent. I argue that that money should achieve two money to spend, even if they did in practice because the objectives. First, it should try to ensure as quickly as 4p’s were accruing here, there and everywhere as they possible that the economy starts to grow again; that, made different purchases. after all, is the whole purpose of a fiscal stimulus. Secondly, it would be beneficial if we had something to Mr. Soames: The basis of the hon. Gentleman’s show for the money afterwards. argument, which he is making very powerfully, is whether It is worth reminding everybody that the cost of the the VAT cut was or was not a good thing to do. Does he temporary VAT cut—I do not know whether the know whether the Government consulted retailers and Government realised that it would be this neat—is those who represent them on what the burdens would 749 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 750

[Mr. Soames] The hon. Gentleman takes me neatly on to what the money could alternatively be spent on, which is an be, and whether retailers, who know much more than entirely relevant consideration. There are, essentially, the Government about selling things, believed that the two schools of thought: that which says that there is no VAT cut would make a substantial difference to the scope for a fiscal stimulus and that which says that there Government’s prospects and to theirs? is. My party is of the second school, and while I do not wish to caricature anybody’s arguments, I understand Mr. Browne: I am not aware of what consultation that we are in the same school as the Labour party and took place among retailers. I hope that the Minister is the Scottish National party. By and large, Conservative more aware of that than me, but from what I have seen Front Benchers—although we heard a dissenting view a there was little or no consultation. The Government felt few moments ago—do not believe that there is scope for a need to act swiftly, and perhaps they were right in that a fiscal stimulus beyond the automatic stabilisers that analysis. They grasped at the temporary VAT cut from one would get at a time when the economy was shrinking. 17.5 to 15 per cent. as being the best way to go—there Having said, “The Government’s policy is to have a seemed to be very little evidence for it, and amendment 8 fiscal stimulus, and after all they are the Government: would be a good way of starting to examine whether they are in power and enacting this policy”, we can they made the right decision—and introduced it swiftly move beyond that and ask how the money would better as part of an attempt by the Prime Minister, principally, be spent. The sum involved is generally estimated to be to show that he had a grip on the economic situation. in the region of £12 billion or £13 billion, although the He wanted to show that the situation was bad, but that more popular the Government’s policy is, the more he was taking the decisive action necessary to get us effective it is, and the greater the cost. through the recession as speedily as possible. I do not get the sense that alternatives were considered in as We should ask whether this is the best way to spend much detail as they could have been, nor that the £12 billion or £13 billion, and whether it is doing two adverse impacts of the Government’s policy were considered things. First, is it increasing demand and getting us in sufficient detail. No doubt the Minister will enlighten through the recession more quickly than if the stimulus us about that. had not been put in place and the extra borrowing had I am not sure that the behavioural impact was fully not accrued? Secondly, will we have something to show assessed. Some people may behave in a way that the for that large amount of public spending once it is Government had not intended. I suspect that if the date finished? My party drew up a list, a package, when we on which the VAT reduction ceased had been brought were envisaging better ways to spend the entire £12 billion nearer to today, some people who were motivated to or £13 billion. As I said, with every day that passes that spend differently because of the VAT reduction—for money ebbs away, but nevertheless I shall run briefly example, to buy a big-ticket item such as a car—would through some of the matters that we were talking have tried to make such purchases just before the rate about. went back up to 17.5 per cent. again. Interestingly, the effect of the stimulus might have been brought forward The First Deputy Chairman: Order. I hope that the hon. if the reduction had been for a shorter period. Had it Gentleman will contain his comments to the amendment not stretched for the full 13-month period, the monthly that is tabled in his name, rather than the wider package cost of the reduction might have been a bit higher, but of reforms that he was about to discuss. the overall cost might have been lower. That is a theory, but it is the sort of area that such a report could usefully Mr. Browne: Thank you, Mrs. Heal, for that very examine. helpful guidance. The point that I was trying to make—I Stewart Hosie: The hon. Gentleman says that the certainly do not wish to make it at excessive length—was assessment should be done before 1 April 2010. Does he that amendment 8 asks the Government to consider the agree that it could be done very quickly, and that if it impact of the VAT reduction on included an assessment that showed that direct capital “UK economic growth…the competitiveness of small and medium- expenditure would protect or preserve tens of thousands sized businesses, and…the disposable income of low-income more jobs in the remaining period than the VAT cut, households”. that might be something that those of us who believe in My contention is that the benefits in those three areas fiscal stimulus could yet coalesce around in the teeth of and more widely would have been greater had the recession and in light of tomorrow’s unemployment Government gone down the path of spending the money figures? on a range of programmes. I shall not list those programmes, Mr. Browne: The hon. Gentleman makes a good but they would have been designed to encourage our point. I accept that the date in the amendment is country towards greater environmental sustainability. arbitrary; I was trying to take account of the typical We argued, and continue to argue even though the time scale of such reviews. There is a degree of urgency— amount of money that we are arguing about gets smaller very much so—in terms of the economy and the he every day, that the money could have been spent on, for mentioned unemployment. Of course, the review would example, home insulation programmes, buying new rolling be retrospective were it to take place on the date that the stock for trains or electrifying some train lines. That amendment envisages, but there would still be some would have provided an opportunity for greater benefit, because we do not know whether the Government employment. It would have been a stimulus, but once may in time seek to use such a device again. It would we reached the end of the package, as the Government inform future decisions instead of dealing with the here now envisage doing with the VAT reduction at the end and now. I take his point that the here and now is an of this calendar year, we would have had a lot of important priority, and we will no doubt focus on that insulated houses, electrified train lines and new rolling in discussing the clause as a whole. stock. 751 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 752

Instead, I am afraid that we are going to spend Mr. Gauke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I was £12 billion or £13 billion and have precisely nothing to going to address that point later, and I will come back show for it except, arguably, some small, incremental, to it, but given the enthusiasm in all parts of the hard-to-measure benefits to some organisations. I fear Committee for me to address it now, I shall do so. that the review envisaged in amendment 8 would still Clause 9 will move the date at which we revert to not get us to the bottom of precisely what those benefits 17.5 per cent. VAT back from 1 December to 1 January. are. That is not £13 billion of public money spent If the clause does not stand part of the Bill, that date wisely, especially as that money was not available. Borrowing will remain 1 December. I shall elaborate on what that was increased, by this year’s figures, from £162 billion means, and I hope that the concerns that my hon. to £175 billion, but we do not have longer-term assets Friend raises, and the Minister’s concern that there is no such as I have described to show for it. The Government Conservative amendment on this point, will be addressed. talk about investment when they really mean spending, The Liberal Democrats tabled an amendment to bring but under our plans there genuinely would have been the date forward, but it was not selectable, as is customary investment as well as spending. They would have stimulated in these circumstances. However, we have an opportunity the economy in the short term while providing a longer-term to do what we can to deal with the matter as quickly as legacy. possible. For all those reasons, amendment 8 requests a I return to my points in a more methodical way. The comprehensive review, and the debate gives us an hon. Member for Taunton was absolutely right to ask opportunity to consider when the temporary VAT reduction his two questions—first, whether in November 2008 we should cease. The Government need to answer the could afford the fiscal stimulus that consisted of the question of the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East VAT cut, and secondly, if we could afford a discretionary (Mr. Ellwood)—it was on a practicality, but an important fiscal stimulus, whether that was the right way to go one—about whether it is wise to finish it at the end of about it. December. The Government also need to address the It is worth my being precise about where there is a wider points about whether the end could be brought difference between the Government and the Opposition, forward and the revenue savings realised earlier. because there is a tendency to point to dividing lines I hope that many hon. Members will contribute to and caricature our positions, and the differences between the debate and that the Financial Secretary will accept us can be exaggerated. First, we recognise that there is a the concerns that have been expressed in all quarters. I place for automatic stabilisers. We recognise that tax hope that he will take on board also the complete lack revenues will reduce in the course of a recession and of enthusiasm of anybody in his party for debating this that expenditure will increase on certain things, particularly issue and defending Government policy. Perhaps, in the benefits. We have not argued that our fiscal policy intelligent way for which he is well known, he will seek should be such that we do not allow the automatic to arrive at a solution that is beneficial to the taxpayer stabilisers to apply. The difference between the Opposition and the economy as a whole. and the Government is about the discretionary fiscal stimulus, not the automatic stabilisers. Mr. David Gauke (South-West Hertfordshire) (Con): This is an important debate, and I share the view of the Secondly, let us not exaggerate the significance of hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne) that it is a pity fiscal policy in addressing a recession. It is not the sole, that there are not more Labour Members here to debate nor even the principal, means of addressing a downturn. what was, after all, the flagship policy of the pre-Budget If I may, I shall quote what the hon. Member for report of 2008. Perhaps this subject cannot drag them Twickenham (Dr. Cable), who is highly regarded in away from the various plotting enclaves in which they these matters, said in the debate on 31 March. I did not are currently gathered. say that he is rightly highly regarded, but he is highly regarded. Mr. Timms: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us why He stated that, there is no Conservative amendment on this subject? “what is actually happening is that the Government are very Given the strength of feeling on the Conservative Benches, carefully following the doctrines of Milton Friedman and we I would have thought that there would be some proposals, have, in essence, a monetary response to the crisis, which is but there is nothing. absolutely right, provided it is effective and gets money into the economy.”—[Official Report, 31 March 2009; Vol. 490, c. 815.] 8.15 pm We supported the reductions in interest rates and recognised that addressing a downturn is essentially about monetary Mr. Gauke: If the right hon. Gentleman will be a policy. little patient, he will receive the full reason why there is no Conservative amendment, but he will find that there Mr. Syms: My hon. Friend is developing his argument is still a dividing line between us. well. Clearly, the VAT cut pales into insignificance compared with quantitative easing, devaluation, interest Mr. Ellwood: Does my hon. Friend agree that we tried rate cuts and all the other things that are happening. very hard in the debate on the Bill last week to get the There must be better ways of spending the money. Financial Secretary to recognise that this was an unpopular move, and that the best thing that could happen would Mr. Gauke: My hon. Friend is right. The Government be for the date of the VAT change to be moved? Does he can and should do many things to address a recession. agree that the response, body language and message We differ from the Government in that we believe that, that we got back suggested that in absolutely no way in the current circumstances, the benefits from a were the Government willing to listen? What would be discretionary fiscal stimulus such as a VAT cut are the point of tabling an amendment if that is how we are outweighed by the dangers that it poses to the public treated in the Chamber? finances and the burden that it places on future taxpayers. 753 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 754

Mr. Timms: I am following the hon. Gentleman’s Even in November, we were concerned about the argument closely and with interest. I appreciate that risks of the VAT cut to the public finances. We were not there are separate discussions about whether we can alone—in a debate in the House on 17 December, the afford a fiscal stimulus and which stimulus we should right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) expressed choose. Does he agree with the shadow Secretary of his concerns about the Government’s ability to raise State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform debt. Were we right to be worried about public finances? that, if we are to have a fiscal stimulus, a VAT cut is the Absolutely. Given the decline in them and the difficulties best and most effective measure? in selling Government gilts since then, our case has become stronger. Our opposition to the VAT cut sent a Mr. Gauke: My principal argument is that we cannot much clearer signal to the markets than the Government afford it. On what constitutes the best fiscal stimulus could convey of determination to take the state of the when one can afford it, there are various arguments for public finances seriously. and against, which I shall tackle in my speech. However, Let us consider whether a VAT cut is the best way in the fundamental argument is that we cannot afford it. which to use the £12.5 billion that the Government said I want to reach out in a bipartisan spirit to find in November that it would cost. I have said that I do not another matter about which we and the Government believe that we could afford it, but there is a range of agree. It is that one must recognise the state of the views about whether a VAT cut was the best method of public finances when deciding what stimulus one can using that money.I am not persuaded by Liberal Democrat have, and that there are limits to Government borrowing, proposals that the money should have been spent on a which must guide the policy that one pursues when public works programme. The hon. Member for Taunton drawing up pre-Budget report and Budget measures. rightly did not have an opportunity to discuss the We clearly agree about that because, despite all the Liberal Democrat proposal in detail. However, I remember rhetoric in the run-up to the Budget in April from examining it, and it seemed to consist principally of the Prime Minister on his world tour, when he made the improvements to rail services relevant to Liberal Democrat case for a bold fiscal stimulus for every country, the UK seats—strikingly so. did not pursue such a policy in the 2009 Budget because Let me cite that great Liberal—I do not know whether the assessment was that we did not have the money. As the hon. Member for Taunton is from the same tradition— the Governor of the Bank of England put it to the John Maynard Keynes. In 1942, he wrote: Treasury Committee— “Organised public works, at home and abroad, may be the right cure for a chronic tendency to a deficiency of effective The First Deputy Chairman: Order. I have allowed demand. But they are not capable of sufficiently rapid organisation some latitude, but the hon. Member is now straying (and above all cannot be reversed or undone at a later date) to be rather wide of the amendment and its intention. the most serviceable instrument for the prevention of the trade cycle.”

Mr. Gauke: Thank you, Mrs. Heal. I want to argue Mr. Browne: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s joke, that we could not afford the VAT cut, which was announced but I fear that it may not be accurate. I beg your brief in the pre-Budget report. The public finances are precarious indulgence, Mrs. Heal, to say that our proposal was to and the Government recognised that they could not electrify the great western and midland main lines and afford an additional fiscal stimulus in April. As the begin the Liverpool light rail network. Although my Governor of the Bank of England said: party is winning more and more seats in all parts of the “The fiscal position in the UK is not one that would say, ‘Well, country, it is probably unfair to say that those measures why don’t we engage in another significant round of fiscal expansion?’” would specifically benefit Liberal Democrat constituencies.

Mr. Timms: May I press the hon. Gentleman a little The First Deputy Chairman: Order. I have been generous more? He is now setting out a view, which is consistent to hon. Members. Perhaps we can now adhere a little with the comments of the shadow Business Secretary, more closely to the amendment. but does he agree with his right hon. and learned Friend that, if one has a fiscal stimulus, the VAT cut is the most Mr. Gauke: I anticipate that you would not want me effective sort of stimulus to introduce? to dwell on a response to that, Mrs. Heal, but I have seen a document that had a number of proposals for the Mr. Gauke: Again, a little patience from the Financial west country, including one for a line from Eastleigh to Secretary would be appreciated. I know that he is keen Romsey, which was particularly egregious. to move me on from whether a fiscal stimulus was affordable, but I think that the subject should be tackled The reaction to the VAT cut internationally has not thoroughly. Given what we know now, who was right exactly been enthusiastic. Nicolas Sarkozy has said: about the pre-Budget report 2008? Could we afford that “Cutting VAT by two points doesn’t incite people to buy if discretionary fiscal stimulus? Hon. Members should they are scared about their future.” remember that, at the time of the pre-Budget report, the Christine Lagarde, the French Finance Minister, said: Government projected that they would borrow £77.6 billion “as far as we’re concerned…we’re not certain that when prices go in 2008-09, and the projected figure for 2009-10 was down a VAT reduction is that effective.” £118 billion. By the time we reached the Budget—which Peer Steinbrueck, the German Finance Minister, said: contains the most up-to-date figures that we have from “We have no idea how much of that stores will pass on to the Government; some consider them optimistic—the customers. Are you really going to buy a DVD player because it figures for 2008-09 were £90 billion and those for 2009-10 now costs £39.10 instead of £39.90? All this will do is raise were £175 billion. That is an increase in borrowing over Britain’s debt to a level that will take a whole generation to the two years of almost £70 billion. work off.” 755 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 756

Carsten Schneider, the German Social Democratic budget A number of countries engaged in a fiscal stimulus, spokesman, said: because they were in a stronger position and could “I think the sales tax cut is counter-productive.” afford to do so, but they did not go down the route of Oliver Blanchard, the chief economist of the International the VAT cut. There are also some practical points to be Monetary Fund, said: made about VAT, some of which were raised in the quotations that I have cited. First, at a time of sharp “Temporarily cutting VAT, a measure that was adopted in discounting of goods—that was certainly the circumstance Great Britain, does not seem to me to be a good idea…2 per cent. less is not perceived by consumers as a real incentive to spend.” last November and last December—the 2.5 per cent. reduction in VAT could have been lost. That point was made by a number of commentators. In particular, 8.30 pm when Justin King, the chief executive officer of Sainsbury’s, Mr. Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): Not to be appeared on “Question Time” on 27 November, he said: too cynical, does my hon. Friend feel that perhaps the “If we walk down the high street today you’ll see 20 per cent. Germans, the French and the Dutch were all terrified off, 30 per cent. off, 50 per cent. off, so really in that context it’s a that the 2.5 per cent. cut in VAT would suddenly draw drop in the ocean.” business away from France, Germany and Holland? Does he think that that was their motive in making That is one of the problems with the VAT cut. those comments? The second problem is one of practical difficulties. There were practical difficulties with the sudden decrease Mr. Gauke: No, I do not. My hon. Friend puts in VAT at a time when shops were certainly hoping to be forward an interesting theory—it is one that I am sure busy. There had to be re-pricing with very little notice the Government would like to endorse—but I do not and we know that that caused difficulties. In some cases think that that was the reason that those whom I have the VAT cut was not necessarily passed on. In other quoted thought that the cut was a daft idea. cases, people were sitting in shops with calculators deducting the necessary amount, which also created Mr. Jeremy Browne: Does the hon. Gentleman think difficulties. There were real costs involved in changing that the Government could take the approach of the system so quickly. Retailers were not exactly overjoyed announcing—or letting it be known—that they intend at being faced with what was, after all, a tax cut. There to increase VAT to 20 per cent. in order to address the are other technical difficulties involved. For example, Budget shortfall and that that may have enough of an those businesses operating under the flat-rate arrangements impact to create a stimulus in demand, when people will not have felt the benefits of the change. There were realise that the differential will be 5 per cent., not just significant practical difficulties. 2.5 per cent.? At the big picture level, what was the test that the Government set themselves by reducing VAT? At the end Mr. Gauke: That is an interesting idea. Although it of November, their argument was, “Thanks to the would be unfair, I am tempted to say that the Minister—or measures that we are introducing in the pre-Budget at least what went out in his name—rather contributed report, the recession is going to end earlier than it to that perception when there was a suggestion that would otherwise do. It is now going to end in the second VAT may rise yet further. However, the Government half of 2009.” Sadly, that is not going to be the case, have not stated that that is their intention. There may although there are clearly some encouraging signs, and well be a stimulation in demand when people get in we hope that they will continue. before the reversion to 17.5 per cent. The Government now accept that recovery will not John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) (Lab): It’s happen until the end of the year. The test that they set called Christmas. themselves was to use the VAT measure to bring the recovery forward. They have had to downgrade their Mr. Gauke: Indeed, although I take it that the hon. growth forecast for 2009 from the contraction of 1 per Gentleman will not be claiming credit for any stimulation cent. of GDP predicted in the pre-Budget report to a in demand in December from the subsequent increase contraction of 3.5 per cent. as set out in the Budget. in VAT. Even that figure is optimistic compared with the projections of the likes of the International Monetary Fund. Mr. Newmark: To follow up with a more serious I am sure that the Minister will refer to the Centre for point, I would be interested to know from the Minister, Economics and Business Research and to Doug given that the Government track our borders assiduously, McWilliams’ comments; he does so every time I debate whether he noticed a flow of individuals coming from this matter with him. Doug McWilliams has supported France, Germany or Holland into this country as a the VAT cut; indeed, he recommended that policy proposal result of the 2.5 per cent. cut in VAT, which would in November. Having recommended it, he has subsequently thereby have increased retail sales to German, French looked at it again and concluded that he was right all and Dutch customers, or does he not have that information? along. His assessment states that retail sales over the December to February period were £2.1 billion higher Mr. Gauke: Again, I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I than they would otherwise have been. We do not necessarily am sure that the Minister will have taken that question accept that, however. We need to disentangle the impact on board and will be able to provide us with some of the VAT cut from the effect of the very substantial answers. The same question goes for the Republic of cuts in interest rates over the same period, alongside the Ireland, although the devaluation of the pound over policy of discounting that shops were adopting, as we that period may have also played a part. heard from Justin King. Even then, the Government’s 757 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 758

[Mr. Gauke] Mr. Gauke: I welcome the hon. Lady to the debate and I give way to her. figures show that, in the period from December to February, the policy was costing the taxpayer something Alison Seabeck: I do not want to be impatient or in the region of £3 billion. churlish because you have been approaching this issue in a spirit of generosity, actually, but on two occasions you have— Mr. Timms: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has now looked at the CEBR report. I wonder whether The First Deputy Chairman: Order. he has read the sentence in it that states: “The data also shows that the acceleration in retail sales Alison Seabeck: I am sorry, Mrs. Heal; I mean the volume was not achieved through fire sales and fierce discounting hon. Gentleman. He said that he would at some stage on the high street.” tell us what the Opposition would have done to fill the That exactly addresses one of the concerns that he and gap if we had not reduced VAT in the way we did. We others have raised. have not yet quite got there, however, and I am wondering whether we are going to.

Mr. Gauke: I have seen that comment, but I come Mr. Gauke: I am grateful to the hon. Lady, but I am back to the point that it is very difficult to disentangle not sure whether it is a question of filling the gap, as it all the various factors involved. The fall in interest rates more a matter of reducing it. There we go, but she at that time will have had a substantial effect on sales, as brings me on to the next point I wanted to make, so I we have seen. am grateful for her intervention. Having read the CEBR report, does the Minister What clause 9 principally does—I realise that I am agree with its view, which differs from that of the venturing into a stand part debate, Mrs. Heal, but I am Government, on the actual cost of the VAT policy? The assuming that we are addressing the amendment at the report cites a figure of £11 billion, rather than £12.5 billion. same time—is to delay the implementation of the return I would be grateful if the Minister updated the House to VAT at 17.5 per cent. from 1 December to 1 January. on the Treasury’s assessment of that cost, and told us by The reason for doing so is that the Government introduced how much he thinks sales will increase. To what extent their VAT change through a statutory instrument, which is the Government’s view consistent with that of the provided the authority to make that change only for CEBR? 12 months. The Government now wish to add on an That brings me to the heart of amendment 8, which extra month, but to be fair to them, it was always their deals with the need to look again at this matter and for intention to do so. For the various reasons I have set the Treasury to prepare a report and to evaluate the out, however, we think it would be beneficial not to various consequences of the policy. There is a need to move the date on from 1 December to 1 January, but to assess the policy in greater detail. There is clearly a stick with 1 December. debate to be had, and the Government will always argue There are a number of reasons for doing that, so let that the policy has been successful. Most of us would me first address the point raised by my hon. Friend the argue that the fall in interest rates had a greater impact Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) about on retail sales, and the growth in the economy is certainly the difficulty of changing the VAT rate in the new year. disappointing compared with what the Government It will be difficult for institutions in operation at the were hoping for when they announced their policy. I am time when the VAT rate is changed, but perhaps even not, however, convinced as to whether the Treasury is more significant is the fact that this will be in the middle the right body to review this, which I say in the context of the post-Christmas sales. I should say the January of last month’s Budget, whose numbers have been heavily sales, but it seems odd to have 1 January being in the criticised. I will not go through all the detail, but the middle and I am sure that you, Mrs. Heal, follow my growth forecasts for 2009 and, more particularly for point that there is a lot of activity going on in stores at 2011 and 2012, seem to be out of line with those of the time of these sales. The representations we have most independent forecasters. The Government’s reputation received certainly suggest that retailers do not want the for making projections of the public finances has been change to come in at this date. Whether it is the worst very poor, and we have seen those projections substantially time of year, as the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne) revised. suggests, I am not sure, but it is certainly one of the worst dates and we believe there is an argument for The point I am making is that there is a need for a changing it. body independent of the Treasury to make an assessment of projections for growth and for the public finances. We propose an “Office of Budget Responsibility”, and Bob Spink: Is there not a case for pushing the date there may well be a case for referring this sort of review back rather than bringing it forward—perhaps to 1 June, to a body that is at arm’s length from the Treasury in which might have electoral as well as commercial benefits? order to assess whether the right approach is being put forward. I raise this particular caveat over the Liberal Mr. Gauke: The hon. Gentleman is right that a case Democrat amendment, but there is much to be said for can be made for moving it back, but that would have an looking again at a policy that has not, I fear, by any effect on the Exchequer and, to be fair, I have been means provided the best use of £12.5 billion of taxpayers’ making the case that we do not have the spare money. money. As I have said, we oppose that because we do not think there is room in the budget, and we are therefore not persuaded of the case for moving it back to June or Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Devonport) (Lab) rose— February or any other time. 759 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 760

8.45 pm preference is for a middle view. The report suggested in Our proposal would have an advantage in addition to the amendment would be useful, because it would enable that of practicality: it would save some money. We can us to judge what the Government did in the light of the argue about what we should do with the money—whether alternatives. some of it should go towards public works, some towards If we really want people to spend money, we give other tax cuts and some towards reducing the level of lower-paid people a voucher with an end date so that borrowing—but we are by no means alone in believing they can buy goods in a store. Alternatively, we give that the cut should be brought forward. In “Progress” local authorities money that they can use to provide magazine in March, in an article entitled, interestingly grants for environmental improvements to homes—which enough, “April 2009, make or break month for Labour”— we know will be a major challenge—so that small Labour Members can work out for themselves whether business can become involved. Clearly, things have changed it was a make or break month for them—the right hon. very rapidly. The Government made a decision in the Member for North Tyneside (Mr. Byers) wrote: pre-Budget report, and to some extent they are stuck “I supported the V.A.T. cut in December. It was exactly the with it. Therefore, it would be useful to have a report, right thing to do at the time and it has been supported by many particularly as 1 April 2010 is likely to be at the start of independent commentators since. However, I do now question a general election campaign. We would have a document whether it has run its course both in terms of its overall benefit to that we could discuss with great interest. the economy and in relation to the political return that comes to the government.” I suspect that the cut will, of course, make a difference to UK economic growth, but I am not sure whether that Speaking in the House on 31 March, the hon. Member impact is really worth the £12 billion or £13 billion. I for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) said: am also unsure whether it will have much effect on the “I believe it is time to bring forward the end date of the VAT competitiveness of small and medium-sized businesses. reduction.”—[Official Report, 31 March 2009; Vol. 490, c. 845.] We have heard in the debate that there are costs. There It is clear that both Members believe that the time has are certainly costs to local authorities and to many come to return VAT to its previous rate. businesses in this manoeuvre. On the disposable income For the reasons I have given, we will vote against of low-income households, as such households have a clause 9. We want VAT to return to its previous rate of higher propensity to spend what income they have, 17.5 per cent. on 1 December. We thought that the there may be some modest positive impact on them, but policy was bad when it was introduced in the last I suspect there are other means and policy instruments pre-Budget report, and the facts that have emerged that could have been used to put money into people’s since then have reinforced our view that we cannot pockets. afford it. We think that, in continuing to pursue their The amendment has allowed us to debate this matter policy in the face of our warnings, the position of the and if the Government produced a report, I rather Liberal Democrats and, indeed, the position of their suspect it would be useful in April 2010. However, as we own Back Benchers, the Government are making a have moved on and the overall financial situation has mistake. The sooner they recognise it and stop pursuing deteriorated, one would also have to assess other things, a failed policy, the better it will be for the United such as the £12 billion or £13 billion cut in VAT revenue. Kingdom. That will leave a long-term debt legacy in terms of interest and compound interest, and there is also the Several hon. Members rose— opportunity cost of what else could have been achieved in the medium term while leaving a legacy of some sort, The First Deputy Chairman: Order. For the avoidance such as insulated homes or improvements in the overall of doubt, I should inform hon. Members that I am economy. indeed treating this as a clause stand part debate. The Government were in a difficult fix in the autumn. They faced an unfolding situation. There was clearly an Mr. Syms: I congratulate the hon. Member for Taunton imperative to take a particular decision: to try to put (Mr. Browne) on tabling an amendment that gives us an money into the economy. They made a choice, but I do opportunity to discuss a very important issue. not think it was a very good one; there are better steps It is clear that economic conditions have been very that could have been taken. The amendment of the hon. turbulent over the past 12 months. In terms of public Member for Taunton is a useful one for the Committee policy, the Government were in a difficult position in to consider, and I hope he is brave enough to press it to the pre-Budget report. They had to decide what to do, a Division. and what to do quickly. A VAT cut is one of the main things that could be done quickly. However, a bigger cut John Howell: The amendment asks us to consider over a short period might have been better than a cut of having only 2.5 per cent. over a long period. That would have “a report containing an assessment of the impact of the temporary really pulled money out of people’s pockets, and made VAT rate reduction on” them feel that they were getting a bargain. A cut of several billion over three months might have had more a number of areas. I want to concentrate on the impacts impact. on “UK economic growth” and My hon. Friend the Member for South-West “the competitiveness of small and medium-sized businesses”. Hertfordshire (Mr. Gauke) quoted John Maynard Keynes. It is crucial to strike the right balance between what is It is clear that anyone who wants to move the economy of value to the economy as a whole and what is of value on cannot become involved in electrification schemes to the competitiveness of individual businesses. On the and railways and so forth. As we know, given our latter, a fundamental issue is the cost of administering planning process, those things take a long time. My what will, by the end of this period, be two changes in 761 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 762

[John Howell] The Financial Secretary and I have already crossed swords in the debate over whether or not the VAT cut VAT. Business has consistently seen the VAT cut as has worked. At that time, he repeated the view of a having no positive impact on their sales. The Federation report by the Centre for Business and Economic Research: of Small Businesses conducted a survey of 5,000 of its “‘The figures are clear; the VAT cut is working. There was an members, and 97 per cent. said it had had no impact at immediate boost to the volume of retail sales after the cut was all in terms of boosting trade. There has been a big cost introduced on 1 December.’” impact, however. I see that in my own constituency, He went on to endorse the report’s view that the cut was where a number of small retailers are very unhappy. “‘good value for the taxpayer’”.—[Official Report, 27 April 2009; They are part of the fragile and vulnerable small business Vol. 491, c. 668.] situation that we described earlier today. As a result, That is clutching at straws. The view has been based on there are large numbers of empty properties in many the volume of retail sales, and there are problems with towns—although there are perhaps some signs of shops that approach. The Government cannot have it both being attracted back. ways. If they are going to put a lot of emphasis and There is a cost involved in decreasing VAT and then reliance on that report, logically they must accept the increasing it again in terms not only of cash, but time. criticism it makes of raising VAT again in January 2010. For those who run small businesses—especially those It states that that who have to adjust to these changes in VAT—that is “threatens to cause a consumer downturn and choke the fragile perhaps the most precious commodity of all. The question economic recovery”. of where to put in the effort and to use the expertise is If they are going to rely on the report for one thing, they crucial, but it is very difficult to cost. That is particularly must rely on it for the other—although that is not a difficult for a small business that sells tens of thousands favourable situation. of products, and perhaps has only one or two people I have great difficulty in trying to assess whether the running it. VAT cut has worked. It is one of those questions that are illogical in terms of their resolution, because we can The impact assessment for the Finance Bill listed a make no direct comparison with the counter-argument number of actions that business would have to take as to what would have happened without the cut. The to implement the temporary VAT cut, including need for that was recognised in the evidence given by familiarisation; re-pricing; carrying out the extra the Governor of the Bank of England to the Treasury bookkeeping checks involved; dealing with potential Committee, in which he acknowledged that the real extra accountancy costs; and, of course, making systems problem was that changes and upgrades. It estimated that the total compliance “It is very hard to know what the counter-factual is.” costs for business would be about £300 million. We do not know how quickly spending would have I was particularly worried by the paragraphs that changed if the VAT cut had not been made. That is the followed, in which it was acknowledged that in deciding fundamental flaw in claims that the VAT cut has worked, how to respond to those changes, businesses were likely as the Governor pointed out. to have to take lot of other costs into account. Such costs would arise from consulting advisers or, potentially, 9pm from renegotiating the terms of any contracts that are In the absence of a direct comparator, we need some inclusive of VAT. Although the assessment recognised form of proxy to represent it. A simple increase in sales that those costs were likely, they were somehow dismissed is not enough. Traditionally, we have looked at whether as being commercial decisions—as if the other changes sales of VAT-able goods have increased more than sales it had costed were not commercial decisions. Even the of non-VAT-able. The key proxies are generally non-food impact assessment recognises that costs that have not sales with VAT versus food sales without VAT. The been properly analysed are involved, and that they are difference should be surprisingly large if we are to claim not part of the costings in the assessment. Thus, it is any proof that the VAT cut has worked. Because those very difficult to make a judgment on this matter, and measures are proxies and the model is simple, it is not that has not been a particularly helpful part of the possible to distinguish on the basis of volumes, or even Government’s assessment of that part of the activity. values, other factors that have already been mentioned, such as discounts, or to take account of postponed On the costs on the ground, as I have mentioned, the purchases or lower interest rates that may also affect the FSB survey has shown that there is no sign of the VAT outcome. So there is no proof there that the VAT cut cut working, but it is worth examining whether it is has worked. working at the bigger picture level and whether the model behind it was applicable. Without an understanding Alison Seabeck: I am not as expert as the hon. of that, the assessment required by the amendment Gentleman, but his argument about the proxies—spending would be difficult to achieve. One of the worrying on VAT-able and non-VAT-able goods—is flawed. If features about the underlying model was that it was a there is additional money in families’ pockets because simple supply and demand model of consumption, they have saved money on VAT-able goods, sales of which would perhaps have been suitable to use in an non-VAT-able goods could rise because they have more economy that was doing well, but in one that contained money to spend on food and other products. I am not a large marginal element, it ignored the complexities sure that the hon. Gentleman’s argument makes sense. involved. The policy and the modelling that must have taken place in order to introduce this adjustment—the John Howell: I have some sympathy with that view, VAT cut and then the raise forward—assuming that and it reinforces the difficulty of using proxies in such any modelling was undertaken, was flawed from the matters. The assumption is that because VAT has been beginning. reduced, people will go out and buy more VAT-able 763 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 764 items. That assumption contains fallacies, and I am not were making an objective assessment that the 2.5 per sure that the distinction is very clear. But that is part of cent. was not enough to move the dial with respect to the difficulty of using proxies in situations where we do individual buying patterns. not have a proper counter-factual—what would have The proof of the pudding can be found in the evidence happened if what is being examined had not occurred. of experts—that is, the evidence of the people who run One can make a best guess and even do some modelling, some of the big retailers. We have heard Justin King’s but there is nothing to actually compare, which is why comments. Retailers are cutting their prices by 15, 20, proxies are used. I agree that it is a difficult issue, but 30, 40 and sometimes even 50 per cent. to try to drive that is why claims that the VAT cut has worked are trade into their shops. As people wander down the unsubstantiated and probably far from the mark. street, wondering which shop they should go into, a I have already mentioned the comments from the sign in the window of a shop that says, “2.5 per cent. cut report that the Financial Secretary is always keen to in VAT”, across the street from a retailer advertising a quote on such occasions about the impact of the date of 30 per cent. cut in the price of its goods will not drive the change. I wonder whether Ministers actually go people in to the shop with the 2.5 per cent. cut. shopping any more. Do they realise that Christmas and We should focus on talking to some of the smaller new year sales occur? That is not a hint for a present businesses, as I did in Braintree and Witham, two of the from the Financial Secretary, as I am sure that that towns in my constituency. I did not get a sense from any would need to be declared somewhere. The arguments retailers there that the 2.5 per cent. cut would drive up on the timing have already been made, and I have made volumes of business, but those volumes need to be my points about the difficulties of assessing the impact driven up, because I have seen some major retailers in of the VAT cut. my town centres—particularly in Braintree—simply shutting down and leaving because the business was not there. The 2.5 per cent. that the Government chucked at them Mr. Newmark: I am delighted to be able to make a to try to drive up trade did not really work, I am afraid. few points on clause 9. I shall focus on three main areas—many of these points have been much discussed My next question for the Minister concerns what in today’s debate—the first of which is the amount of analysis he, his civil servants and the various people the reduction, which is 2.5 per cent., and the importance from consultancies who work for him have done. What of that figure; the second is the issue of the date when uplift in the volume of retail trade can be attributed the rate reduction ceases; and the third is the cost of the directly to the 2.5 per cent. VAT cut? How has it 2.5 per cent. reduction in VAT. affected growth in the retail sector? Has it led to a sudden growth in our GDP, a point raised by my hon. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury makes an Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell)? Those interesting point when he says that such a change can be are pertinent questions, but my main interest is to know an effective instrument in stimulating demand, but I am whether the Minister and his family rushed out and curious about how he came up with the 2.5 per cent. started to buy more as a result of the VAT cut. What figure. What sensitivity analysis did he carry out about goods did he end up buying? the effects of a 2.5 per cent. decrease as opposed to a 5 per cent. or 10 per cent. decrease in trying to drive My next question concerns the date on which VAT demand and the volume of trade? The cut is an attempt will return to its original rate. In our previous debate to kick-start an economy, but in the two or three on these matters, my hon. Friend the Member for debates that I have attended on the issue I have heard Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) said that the that the instincts of retailers and consumers were that it 31 December date was very inconvenient—[Interruption.] would not suddenly drive people to go out and purchase From a sedentary position, my hon. Friend the Member more. When the 2.5 per cent. cut came into effect, did for Ludlow (Mr. Dunne) reminds me that he made the the Financial Secretary rush out and start buying more same point, and retailers around the country agree. My retail goods? Now that the VAT rate is down to 15 per hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East has cent., what has he gone out and bought that he would observed that 3 January would be more convenient, and not have bought at the 17.5 per cent. VAT rate? Perhaps better than attempting to get retailers to change their he can tell me how his shopping patterns changed. VAT system at a peak time when they are trying to drive up sales. It was also interesting to hear the discussions and observations about some of our continental competitors. I am curious to know why the Minister is so keen on It was interesting that the French attacked the reduction the 31 December date. Has he chosen it because it is the as a not particularly effective way of stimulating demand. end of the calendar year? The end of the year for We heard similar criticisms from the Germans and the retailers is usually later, as I suspect that my hon. Friend Dutch, and even from the IMF—I think that it was the the Member for Ludlow will explain in more detail IMF chief economist who had no confidence whatsoever when he gets the opportunity. in the 2.5 per cent. VAT cut. As I said earlier to my hon. The 2.5 per cent. cut has not really worked. I have Friend the Member for South-West Hertfordshire been persuaded by the argument from my hon. Friend (Mr. Gauke), was it some sort of jealousy on the part of the Member for South-West Hertfordshire that it has our European competitors? Were they suddenly nervous not been a big success and that we should cut our losses that huge volumes of trade would shift across continental and go back to the 1 December date. That would be Europe and across the channel, and that the Germans, better than extending the misery for another 31 days— French and Dutch would suddenly begin moving their [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Glasgow, North-West trade from Germany, France and Holland into the UK (John Robertson) is saying something from a sedentary to buy our goods merely because of this 2.5 per cent. position. Does he want to make an intervention, or is he cut in VAT? Somehow, I think not. I think that they just talking to himself? He is clearly talking to himself. 765 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 766

[Mr. Newmark] Prime Minister’s VAT cut was an expensive failure. That is why the Conservatives propose keeping to the date of I am not persuaded by the Minister. I hope that he 1 December. will explain why adding the extra 31 days will be so important. Why has he chosen 31 December as opposed Bob Spink: This debate is about whether one is a tax to, say, 3 January? As I and other hon. Members have cutter or not. I am a tax cutter, unlike the official pointed out, it is probably the worst day of the year to Opposition, who support the Liberals’ amendment. I choose to change the rate back up to 17.5 per cent. from oppose the amendment because I am an unashamed tax 15 per cent. cutter. I honestly believe that cutting tax is the best way The third area that I want to spend some time on is to stimulate economic growth. I believe that people the issue of cost. A number of figures have been thrown should keep more of their own money to spend themselves, around, and it is clear that the process could be quite because they can spend it better than the Government expensive for retailers. It has been estimated that it will can spend it on their behalf. have cost them about £90 million to implement the 2.5 per cent. cut, and that it will cost them another £90 Stewart Hosie: That argument is peculiar, because million to change the rate back up to 17.5 per cent. when the VAT cut is put through the input-output Does the Minister have any figures that will help in model, one finds that direct capital investment saves or estimating the cost to retailers of implementing both creates twice as many jobs as the VAT cut. The hon. changes in a fairly short period? Gentleman is technically wrong about the cut stimulating economic growth. It was not the most effective measure. The same amount in direct capital expenditure would 9.15 pm have been more effective. Is £90 million an accurate figure? My hon. Friend the Member for Henley mentioned a much bigger figure— Bob Spink: The hon. Gentleman disagrees with some £300 million—for the cost to retailers, simply to meet well respected Conservative Front Benchers, who felt the costs of compliance, let alone consulting fees and so that cutting VAT was the best fiscal stimulus possible on. What does the Minister think of that figure? Is it and said so quite openly. reasonable? It is important to consider the expense for retailers, because it is not only the big retailers who are When the Minister winds up, will he say what he affected; they can probably handle issues of compliance thinks the consequences for public finances and jobs and implementing systems to deal with the changes. It is would be if the fiscal stimulus were not given? I think the SMEs who struggle to deal with the constant shifting that that would be extremely risky. It would be playing of the goalposts on VAT. It is inconvenient to them. politics with people’s jobs. They want to spend their time, not dealing with compliance and other regulatory issues, but improving their trade. Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Will the The cost of having to hire more people, perhaps half a hon. Gentleman give way? day extra a week or even a month, is a meaningful amount to them, because, as we all know, retailers work Bob Spink: No. The hon. Gentleman walked into the on very thin margins. I am trying to gain an understanding Chamber just two minutes ago, although the debate has of the costs to retailers. I would be interested to know been going on for 90 minutes, so I will not give way to what homework has the Minister done on that question. him. I think the public finances will be in better shape Moving from the cost to retailers to the cost to the because of the Government’s fiscal stimulus, and I Exchequer, a figure of £12.5 billion has been quoted. Is think the Economic Secretary to the Treasury agrees that figure accurate? What does the Minister think? with me. I am simply shocked to see so many Conservative Does he think it is less than £12.5 billion or more— Members arguing against tax cuts; it is counter-intuitive. £15 billion? Have patterns of buying changed, thus changing that £12.5 billion figure, which is constantly Mr. Binley: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? bandied around? Clearly, the right hon. Gentleman will be unable to give me an immediate answer on changes Bob Spink: No. The hon. Gentleman has just walked in buying patterns, as he has just left the Chamber. into the Chamber. I have asked the Financial Secretary several questions. One is to do with the amount of the VAT reduction—2.5 per Mr. Binley: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? cent. Why not 5 per cent.? The second is to do with the date of the change. Why has 31 December been chosen— Bob Spink: No, I will not. [Interruption.] perhaps one of the most inconvenient dates in the calendar year? Why not 3 January? What is his real The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means objection to the suggestion made by my hon. Friend (Sir Michael Lord): Order. It is quite clear that the hon. the Member for South-West Hertfordshire, that the Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) has no intention Government should stick with 1 December? My third of giving way at the moment. question is to do with the costs. We have heard several figures, including £90 million for the costs of Bob Spink: I am grateful to you, Sir Michael. Does implementation, doubling to £180 million when the rate the Economic Secretary agree that cutting taxes was is shifted back; and my hon. Friend the Member for perhaps the most effective fiscal stimulus, that tax cuts Henley talked about £300 million in costs. What does stimulate demand, and that the tax cut is working the Financial Secretary think of that figure? rather well? Will he therefore put back to 1 June the In the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for date of the changeover from 15 to 17.5 per cent.? That Witney (Mr. Cameron), it certainly appears that the would have great benefits, both commercially for businesses, 767 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 768 and economically for the Government. He would certainly the month after Easter than they were in Easter month. have this independent MP’s support if he went for that The weather this April, as hon. Members will remember, strategy. was balmily sunny, and many of them will have joined my family—well, they were not actually with my family, Mr. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): I am grateful to be but they did the same thing as us—in having Easter called to contribute to this debate, Sir Michael. I touched lunch outside in the sunshine, which was something that on the VAT cut in my contribution on Second Reading, we did not do in 2008. We managed to do it in April 2007, so it is a pleasure to be able to join in the Committee which presaged one of the wettest summers on record, deliberations from the Back Benches. Much of the and I hope that that is not a portent for this summer’s debate, and indeed the Liberal Democrat amendment weather. The weather this April was good, but the to the clause, is an attempt to estimate the impact of the weather last April was bad, and those two factors may VAT cut in relation to other stimulus measures that well account for a large part of the increase in overall have been introduced. Much has been said this evening sales. about the difficulty of measuring the extent to which Indeed, Stephen Robertson, the director general of the apparent increase in retail transactions is attributable the British Retail Consortium, said as much. He said of to the VAT cut, as opposed to other things. the sales figures: I should like to give a bit of colour: now that we are “A sunny Easter that fell in April this year is the key reason in May, data have been published that tell us what has why overall sales are up compared with last year when Easter was happened to different categories of retail sales since the in March and miserable.” VAT cut came into effect. In the first quarter of this year—from January to March—like-for-like sales in the Mr. Newmark: Given the Government’s huge interest food sector rose by 5.3 per cent., but like-for-like sales in recently in the environment, does my hon. Friend believe the non-food sector fell by 2.9 per cent. That is according that in pursuing their policy they were making a huge to the Monitor retail sales survey, which is one of the bet on global warming driving up sales? most widely respected retail sales measurements. That pattern was followed again in April, the figures for Mr. Dunne: My hon. Friend is most inventive in his which came out very recently. In that month, like-for-like excuses for the Government trying to account for the sales overall increased by 4.6 per cent. as against last cut in VAT by linking it to increases in economic April. activity. The Government make great claims regarding their green credentials, few of which come to pass and At first sight, that would seem to suggest that the even fewer of which are put into practice in their Government’s VAT cut had had a positive impact on Budget measures. sales, but I have to inform the Minister that that may well be something of an illusion. The total spent on I shall try to move beyond mere retail sales to other food during that period has risen by less than food things that may account for the improvement in economic inflation over the same period. That indicates that the activity apart from the VAT cut. I shall quote Mr. Robertson volume of food sold over those four months is lower again: than it was a year ago; it is negative. It is therefore “Following a tough winter, there’s some pent up demand, but erroneous to suggest that there has been an increase in there’s no reason to think that customers suddenly feel flush or food sales by volume during the period. As I have eager to spend. With unemployment set to grow through the rest of the year, mounting job worries will hold back spending for already indicated, non-food sales have actually declined some time. The historically weak performance of the last 12 months during that period, so it would be hard for any statistician is behind us, but we shouldn’t celebrate yet.” to be able to determine that there had been an increase I think he is quite right—it is too early to see the green in retail sales as a result of the VAT cut. shoots of economic recovery, and certainly too early to put that down to the VAT cut. Mr. Newmark: Does my hon. Friend think that that could have to do with the Government’s anti-obesity Mr. Binley: Does my hon. Friend agree that for every campaign? Does he think that that is the reason for the job loss, two people are equally worried about the decline in volume of food sales? possibility of losing their job, which widens the trend that he is discussing? Does he accept that analysis? Mr. Dunne: As the deputy chairman of the all-party group on diabetes, I take a particular interest in the level Mr. Dunne: My hon. Friend will have seen the of obesity in this country. I suggest to my hon. Friend unemployment statistics that came out earlier this week, that although the Government have, in order to keep indicating that about 224,000 people joined the medical bills down, made some strides to reduce the unemployment queues over the past three months. That intake of individuals who consume too much, not enough takes the unemployment rate up to 7.9 per cent., which has yet been done in that regard. A lot more could be is utterly dire and takes us beyond the unemployment done. I do not think that obesity measures are the figures that the Government inherited in 1997. There reason that the volume of food sold has declined. are undoubtedly widespread concerns about unemployment The figures for April showed an overall increase of which affect people’s spending habits—not just those nearly 5 per cent., as I have said. That could well be who have had the misfortune to become unemployed attributed to changing patterns—to changes in the date but their relatives, friends and neighbours, who fear for of Easter, a time when retailers put on special promotions their own position. and people like to spend money because they are off work, and, of course, to changes in that favourite in the Mr. Newmark: My hon. Friend makes an interesting retail trade, the weather. In 2009, Easter was in April, point. I believe that up to 600,000 young people will but in 2008 it was in March so sales were typically lower leave school and college in June, thereby possibly increasing 769 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 770

[Mr. Newmark] I should like to make two other brief points to Ministers about the clause. The first is an issue that I the unemployment figures by another 500,000 to 600,000. raised when the VAT cut was first announced last As a result of the VAT cut and the potential pick-up in autumn: the extraordinary impact on the sectors of our volume, will the retail trade hire more people to deal economy that have the benefit of flat-rate VAT with the problem, or have the Government seen no arrangements. By introducing the measure with such evidence of that coming down the path? haste, the Government failed to take properly into account the consequences for the many sectors that Mr. Dunne: My hon. Friend has posed a question for benefit from such arrangements. Like, I am sure, almost the Financial Secretary, who is now back in his seat; I every other hon. Member, I have had constituents writing am sure that his colleagues will brief him so that he can to me complaining that, far from seeing a reduction in provide a proper answer. My point is that the Government VAT as a result of the 2.5 per cent. general cut, their seem set on failing to provide sufficient university places customers have seen an increase because the Government to school leavers this summer. The ranks of the unemployed have failed accurately to calculate changes to the flat-rate may well be swollen by young people unable to get into arrangements. Many businesses are having to impose university because the Government have not provided on their customers a higher flat-rate charge during this adequate funding. period of the so-called VAT cut than they did previously. That is quite extraordinary, and the Government have I move on to consider briefly one or two other factors failed to provide a proper justification for it at any that may have more significant impact than the VAT point. I hope that they will revisit the subject, even at cut: I am thinking of the consequences of the reduction this late stage. in interest rates. In the past 12 months or so, the base rate has declined tenfold from 5 to 0.5 per cent. That Finally, I should like to touch on the point made will undoubtedly provide a significant increase in disposable forcefully by my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree income to households that have tracker or variable rate (Mr. Newmark) about the date. I also mentioned it in mortgages. The point applies to the disposable income the Second Reading debate. It is quite extraordinary to of not only low-income households, as suggested by the choose a Thursday to introduce a significant change Liberal Democrat amendment, but that of all households that will require the re-ticketing of every item, on and that benefit from such mortgages. Those who were on off the high street, that is subject to VAT. As my hon. fixed-rate mortgages and had the opportunity to reset Friend said, the only thing that the proposal has in its them in the past 12 months will see some increase— favour is that it is the calendar year end. It is not a although it will not be as significant, because the banks month end or a week end; in most cases, it is not a are clearly making up their margins on mortgages and financial year end. If the Minister had any familiarity are not fully passing on the base rate cut. However, I with retailing, he would recognise that most retail financial would argue that that cut has had a far more significant year ends vary. They will typically fall at the end of impact on disposable incomes and economic activity January, not the end of December, but they vary according than the footling VAT cut. to the calendar. If it is, say, 31 December, it will be the final Saturday of the month closest to that date, not a Mr. Newmark: My hon. Friend makes an excellent Thursday. point about the shift downwards in interest rates. Many I ask the Minister to consider something that might of us have store cards; it would be interesting to know be familiar to his Parliamentary Private Secretary and whether stores have passed on the decline in interest to many of his other colleagues. Has he had any discussions rates to consumers. Alternatively, have they kept their with the retail trade in Scotland about what the impact rates high? Do the margins that they make on that side might be of introducing a significant change requiring a more than make up for what they may be losing in trade large number of manual amendments to stock price due to VAT cuts and so on? items after close of business on Hogmanay evening? I suspect that that will be extremely inconvenient to retailers Mr. Dunne: The retail sector is one of the most in Scotland, who will have to pay substantially more in innovative in our economy. It would not surprise me at overtime to their long-suffering staff for coming into all if customers had the opportunity of significant work after lights out on Thursday 31 December, when discounting on the ticket price, particularly of large they may well have other things that they would prefer ticket items, while the back-office finance departments to be doing. I hope that the Financial Secretary will recovered their margins by maintaining significant spreads deal with that point directly. on store cards and other forms of credit made available to facilitate purchases. Mr. Timms: Before Christmas, the Government acted promptly with temporary, targeted, timely measures to Mr. Bone: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving support the economy and, in the Budget, we set a path way; he is being exceptionally generous. Before he moves for fiscal sustainability over the medium term. on, I want to put something on the record. A lot of The Liberal Democrat amendment proposes that an banks are gouging people on interest rates. The interest evaluation of the impact of the VAT cut be carried out. on the Royal Bank of Scotland Black Card, which has I can tell the House that on 6 March, with my agreement, just been introduced, is more than 50 per cent. a year. HMRC commissioned a study from an independent That bank has certainly not been passing on the cut. research organisation, ORC International, whose report will be published, as always with externally commissioned Mr. Dunne: The whole House will be astonished at research. The research will look carefully at the compliance that information, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend costs burden imposed by the change and compare them for bringing it to our attention. with the estimates in the public impact assessment. It 771 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 772 will also gather data about the commercial effects and Those who argued when the announcement was made the decisions that businesses took in the light of the that it would have no effect on retail sales were clearly VAT reduction, including looking next spring at the mistaken. The hon. Member for Henley (John Howell), effects of the rate going back up again to 17.5 per cent. whose contribution I enjoyed, took the view at the start That is important, because it has always been clear, as of his speech that the VAT cut would have no effect. I has rightly been acknowledged during the debate, that say to him that if that is his view, he should simply part of the stimulus benefit of what we have done will examine the clear evidence from retail sales. To be fair be to encourage purchases ahead of the rate rise. to him, at the end of his speech he said that it was not possible to know whether the VAT cut had succeeded, Mr. Newmark: Will the Minister give way? so I suppose that that is at least progress in the right direction. Mr. Timms: I will, but time is pressing. We can examine retail sales, and we can examine what Goldman Sachs said a couple of months ago Mr. Newmark: I appreciate that. I have asked the about some earlier figures. It stated: Minister a lot of questions, as have other Members. “With clothing and footwear…making the biggest contribution, How much will the report that he has commissioned to it appears that the VAT cut was instrumental in driving this do the homework that perhaps his own assistants and strength.” advisers should be doing cost the taxpayer? There is also the more recent report, which I am pleased that Conservative Members have now had the chance to Mr. Timms: I do not have the budget in front of me, have a look at, by the Centre for Economics and Business but given our debate, I think that the House will welcome Research in the name of an adviser to the Conservative the fact that a piece of independent research will be party—or a former adviser, I am not quite sure which—with published. the title, “Credit where credit’s due—the VAT cut is The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne) will working”. accept that definitive answers to the questions raised in When the VAT cut was introduced, it was roundly the amendment will be elusive, because nobody can condemned by the Opposition parties. But speaking of absolutely prove what would have happened otherwise. credit where credit is due, I pay tribute to the Liberal However, the report will certainly provide some useful Democrats, who in their amendment at least acknowledge data to help to draw some conclusions. The assessment that it is right to look at the evidence before drawing a that he seeks will be doable when the necessary economic conclusion. I welcome that progress, and I hope that data become available. To assess the impact of the VAT even the Conservative party might in the end not prove cut, we will need data from the consumer trends survey, impervious to the evidence that is mounting, and will breaking down consumption between zero-rated and continue to mount, in the coming months. Today’s data VAT-able goods. Data for the first quarter of 2010 will are another significant piece of evidence. be available in July 2010, so the timing will be a little later than his amendment proposes. To be fair to the Conservative party, the shadow Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory In the meantime, of course, ahead of the completion Reform always recognised the likely effectiveness of a of that research, others have already drawn conclusions VAT cut in boosting the economy. The hon. Member about the impact of the VAT cut and will continue to do for South-West Hertfordshire (Mr. Gauke) declined to so, not least in the light of the striking figures on retail dissent from that view, so I take it that he agrees, sales from the British Retail Consortium to which the although he was not able to say so. Certainly the hon. hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. Dunne) referred. Until Members for Braintree (Mr. Newmark) and for Poole that point, I was surprised—or perhaps I was not—that (Mr. Syms) both endorsed it in their remarks. I hope nobody had mentioned them. Today, Stephen Robertson, that in the end, other Opposition Members will come director general of the BRC, described them as the round. “best sales growth for three years”. Helen Dickinson, head of retail at KPMG, said: Mr. Gauke: The point is that all of us on these “consumers are remaining resilient to the prospects presented by Benches, and certainly the shadow business Secretary, a gloomy economic outlook”. made it very clear that we could not afford the VAT cut. Mr. Gauke: Does the Financial Secretary acknowledge that the BRC also stated that the April numbers should Mr. Timms: I hope that that shows the hon. Gentleman’s be treated with caution because of the weather and implicit acceptance that the VAT reduction has boosted Easter? retail sales, as the shadow business Secretary said that it would. If the hon. Gentleman can confirm that, I will be most grateful. Mr. Timms: Of course, but they are a data point in a growing and increasingly clear picture about what is happening to retail sales. That is in sharp contrast to Mr. Gauke: I am explicitly saying that we could not what happened to retail sales in the 1990s recession, afford it. caused by the policies of the Conservative party, when there was a very different trajectory. In the first quarter Mr. Timms: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman has of 2009, quarter-on-quarter GDP growth was minus declined so pointedly to endorse his right hon. and 1.9 per cent., but retail sales growth was plus 0.9 per learned Friend’s viewpoint, but other Conservative Members cent, which is a remarkable phenomenon. How is that agreed with it. I suspect that, over time, it will gain remarkable performance to be explained? In part, of currency on the Conservative Benches, given the evidence course, it is because of the cut in VAT. that is becoming clearer and clearer. 773 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 774

9.45 pm Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. We can say with certainty that retail sales and the Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill. condition of the economy would be worse without the The Committee proceeded to a Division. temporary reduction and that it is benefiting all businesses—large and small, VAT-registered or not—by The Second Deputy Chairman: I ask the Serjeant at supporting the whole economy and increasing demand Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby. to higher levels than would otherwise be experienced. Of course, the VAT cut is especially beneficial to those The Committee having divided: Ayes 318, Noes 194. on low incomes because it is worth 1.6 per cent. of gross Division No. 119] [9.49 pm income to households in the lowest income decile, compared with 0.5 per cent. to those in the highest decile. AYES To those who suggest that it would be a good idea if Abbott, Ms Diane Cooper, Rosie the change took place on 1 December, I emphasise that Ainger, Nick Cooper, rh Yvette that date is immediately before the busiest retailing Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Corbyn, Jeremy weekend of the year. It would be a much worse date on Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Cousins, Jim which to make the change—that was clear from our Anderson, Mr. David Crausby, Mr. David discussions with the British Retail Consortium. There is Anderson, Janet Creagh, Mary not much support for that. Armstrong, rh Hilary Cruddas, Jon Atkins, Charlotte Cryer, Mrs. Ann I want specifically to tackle one point, which was Austin, Mr. Ian Cummings, John raised in today’s debate and on Second Reading. Indeed, Austin, John Cunningham, Mr. Jim I was surprised that an amendment had not been tabled Bailey, Mr. Adrian Cunningham, Tony about the difficulty for the many businesses that will Baird, Vera David, Mr. Wayne remain open beyond midnight on 31 December in coping Balls, rh Ed Davidson, Mr. Ian with two different VAT rates in a single trading day. Her Banks, Gordon Davies, Mr. Dai Majesty’s Revenue and Customs will allow a few hours’ Barlow, Ms Celia Davies, Mr. Quentin grace for businesses such as pubs and clubs, which will Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Dean, Mrs. Janet serve customers over midnight on 31 December, to Battle, rh John Denham, rh Mr. John enable them to charge the same 15 per cent. for a session Bayley, Hugh Devine, Mr. Jim that goes beyond midnight into the early hours of Beckett, rh Margaret Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit 1 January. HMRC will work with businesses on the Begg, Miss Anne Dismore, Mr. Andrew Benn, rh Hilary Dobbin, Jim details, but I think that that will address the concern. Benton, Mr. Joe Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. I hope that I have reassured the hon. Member for Berry, Roger Doran, Mr. Frank Taunton that we have taken steps to secure the objectives Betts, Mr. Clive Dowd, Jim that his amendment would deliver, in so far as they are Blackman, Liz Drew, Mr. David achievable, and that he will feel able to withdraw the Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Durkan, Mark amendment. Blears, rh Hazel Eagle, Angela Blizzard, Mr. Bob Eagle, Maria Mr. Browne: Thank you, Sir Michael, for giving me Borrow, Mr. David S. Efford, Clive an opportunity to speak at the conclusion of this helpful Bradshaw, Mr. Ben Ellman, Mrs. Louise debate. Many hon. Members will appreciate the modest Brennan, Kevin Engel, Natascha but none the less welcome concession that the Financial Brown, Lyn Ennis, Jeff Secretary made at the end of his remarks about the Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Etherington, Bill Brown, Mr. Russell Farrelly, Paul specific arrangements at the end of December and into Browne, rh Des Field, rh Mr. Frank 1 January. Never let it be said that we do not achieve Bryant, Chris Fisher, Mark anything through our endeavours on the Liberal Democrat Buck, Ms Karen Fitzpatrick, Jim Benches to put pressure on the Government. Burden, Richard Flello, Mr. Robert My party has said all along that the VAT reduction Burgon, Colin Flint, rh Caroline has undoubtedly had an impact. It would be odd to Butler, Ms Dawn Flynn, Paul maintain that the Government could spend £12 billion Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Follett, Barbara to £13 billion to no effect. The question is whether the Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Foster, Mr. Michael impact is as profound as the Government wished for Cairns, David (Worcester) Campbell, Mr. Alan Foster, Michael Jabez that amount of expenditure. We have had a useful Campbell, Mr. Ronnie (Hastings and Rye) discussion about that, but I hoped that the review that I Caton, Mr. Martin Francis, Dr. Hywel envisaged, or any other review, could draw the matter out. Cawsey, Mr. Ian Gapes, Mike The timing, which is effectively the stand part dimension Challen, Colin Gardiner, Barry of the debate, is relevant. We should consider whether Chapman, Ben George, rh Mr. Bruce there needs to be an additional stimulus for consumers Clapham, Mr. Michael Gerrard, Mr. Neil to go out and buy items in December, of all months. Clark, Paul Gibson, Dr. Ian The VAT cut costs roughly £1 billion a month, but, in Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Gilroy, Linda December, one would expect the cost to be much greater Clarke,rhMr.Tom Goggins, Paul because expenditure is so much higher. Clelland, Mr. David Griffith, Nia Clwyd, rh Ann Griffiths, Nigel The amendment provided a useful opportunity to Coaker, Mr. Vernon Grogan, Mr. John debate the subject in the round and, despite being urged Coffey, Ann Gwynne, Andrew by some hon. Members to press it to a Division, I will Cohen, Harry Hain, rh Mr. Peter not. However, I will seek to vote on clause stand part. Connarty, Michael Hall, Mr. Mike Therefore, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Cook, Frank Hall, Patrick 775 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 776

Hamilton, Mr. David McCarthy, Kerry Skinner, Mr. Dennis Touhig, rh Mr. Don Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Slaughter, Mr. Andy Trickett, Jon Hanson, rh Mr. David McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Turner, Dr. Desmond Harman, rh Ms Harriet McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, Ms Angela C. Turner, Mr. Neil Harris, Mr. Tom McDonnell, John (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Twigg, Derek Havard, Mr. Dai McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Smith, Angela E. (Basildon) Ussher, Kitty Healey, rh John McFall, rh John Smith, Geraldine Vis, Dr. Rudi Hendrick, Mr. Mark McGrady, Mr. Eddie Smith, rh Jacqui Walley, Joan Hepburn, Mr. Stephen McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Snelgrove, Anne Waltho, Lynda Hesford, Stephen McIsaac, Shona Soulsby, Sir Peter Ward, Claire Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia McKechin, Ann Southworth, Helen Watts, Mr. Dave Heyes, David McKenna, Rosemary Spellar, rh Mr. John Whitehead, Dr. Alan Hill, rh Keith McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Spink, Bob Wicks, rh Malcolm Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Williams, rh Mr. Alan Hoey, Kate Meale, Mr. Alan Stewart, Ian Williams, Mrs. Betty Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Merron, Gillian Stoate, Dr. Howard Wills, rh Mr. Michael Hope, Phil Michael, rh Alun Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Wilson, Phil Hopkins, Kelvin Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Straw, rh Mr. Jack Winnick, Mr. David Howarth, rh Mr. George Miliband, rh Edward Stringer, Graham Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Howells, rh Dr. Kim Miller, Andrew Stuart, Ms Gisela Wood, Mike Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Mitchell, Mr. Austin Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Hughes, rh Beverley Moffat, Anne Tami, Mark Woolas, Mr. Phil Humble, Mrs. Joan Moffatt, Laura Taylor, Ms Dari Wright, Mr. Anthony Hutton, rh Mr. John Mole, Chris Taylor, David Wright, David Iddon, Dr. Brian Morden, Jessica Taylor, Dr. Richard Wright, Mr. Iain Illsley, Mr. Eric Morgan, Julie Thomas, Mr. Gareth Wright, Dr. Tony Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Thornberry, Emily Wyatt, Derek Irranca-Davies, Huw Mudie, Mr. George Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Tellers for the Ayes: Jackson, Glenda Mullin, Mr. Chris Tipping, Paddy Ian Lucas and James, Mrs. Siân C. Munn, Meg Todd, Mr. Mark Helen Goodman Jenkins, Mr. Brian Murphy, Mr. Denis Johnson, rh Alan Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Johnson, Ms Diana R. Murphy, rh Mr. Paul NOES Jones, Helen Naysmith, Dr. Doug Afriyie, Adam Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Jones, Mr. Kevan Norris, Dan Alexander, Danny Dorries, Nadine Jones, Lynne O’Brien, Mr. Mike Amess, Mr. David Duddridge, James Jones, Mr. Martyn O’Hara, Mr. Edward Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Jowell, rh Tessa Olner, Mr. Bill Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Dunne, Mr. Philip Joyce, Mr. Eric Osborne, Sandra Baldry, Tony Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Owen, Albert Barker, Gregory Evans, Mr. Nigel Keeble, Ms Sally Palmer, Dr. Nick Barrett, John Evennett, Mr. David Keeley, Barbara Pearson, Ian Beith, rh Sir Alan Fabricant, Michael Keen, Ann Plaskitt, Mr. James Bellingham, Mr. Henry Fallon, Mr. Michael Kelly, rh Ruth Pope, Mr. Greg Benyon, Mr. Richard Field, Mr. Mark Kemp, Mr. Fraser Pound, Stephen Bercow, John Foster, Mr. Don Kennedy, rh Jane Prentice, Mr. Gordon Binley, Mr. Brian Fraser, Christopher Khan, Mr. Sadiq Prescott, rh Mr. John Bone, Mr. Peter Gale, Mr. Roger Kidney, Mr. David Primarolo, rh Dawn Boswell, Mr. Tim Garnier, Mr. Edward Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Prosser, Gwyn Bottomley, Peter Gauke, Mr. David Knight, rh Jim Purchase, Mr. Ken Brady, Mr. Graham George, Andrew Kumar, Dr. Ashok Purnell, rh James Brake, Tom Gibb, Mr. Nick Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Rammell, Bill Brazier, Mr. Julian Gidley, Sandra Lammy, rh Mr. David Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Brokenshire, James Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Laxton, Mr. Bob Reed, Mr. Andy Browne, Mr. Jeremy Goldsworthy, Julia Lazarowicz, Mark Reed, Mr. Jamie Browning, Angela Goodman, Mr. Paul Lepper, David Riordan, Mrs. Linda Bruce, rh Malcolm Goodwill, Mr. Robert Levitt, Tom Robertson, John Burns, Mr. Simon Gray, Mr. James Lewis, Mr. Ivan Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Burstow, Mr. Paul Grayling, Chris Linton, Martin Roy, Mr. Frank Burt, Alistair Green, Damian Lloyd, Tony Roy, Lindsay Burt, Lorely Greening, Justine Love, Mr. Andrew Ruane, Chris Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Grieve, Mr. Dominic Mackinlay, Andrew Ruddock, Joan Cash, Mr. William Hague, rh Mr. William Malik, Mr. Shahid Russell, Christine Chope, Mr. Christopher Hammond, Mr. Philip Mallaber, Judy Ryan, rh Joan Clappison, Mr. James Hancock, Mr. Mike Mann, John Salter, Martin Clark, Greg Hands, Mr. Greg Marris, Rob Seabeck, Alison Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Harper, Mr. Mark Marsden, Mr. Gordon Sharma, Mr. Virendra Curry, rh Mr. David Harris, Dr. Evan Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Shaw, Jonathan Davies, David T.C. Hayes, Mr. John Martlew, Mr. Eric Sheridan, Jim (Monmouth) Heald, Mr. Oliver McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Simon, Mr. Siôn Davies, Philip Heath, Mr. David McCabe, Steve Simpson, Alan Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Heathcoat-Amory, rh McCafferty, Chris Singh, Mr. Marsha Dodds, Mr. Nigel Mr. David 777 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 778

Hemming, John Redwood, rh Mr. John ‘(6A) No further amendment may be made to section 5 of Hendry, Charles Reid, Mr. Alan ALDA 1979 within three years of the commencement of this Herbert, Nick Rennie, Willie section, unless the condition set out in subsection (6B) has been Hoban, Mr. Mark Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm satisfied. Hollobone, Mr. Philip Robathan, Mr. Andrew (6B) The condition referred to in subsection (6A) is that the Horam, Mr. John Robertson, Angus Chancellor of the Exchequer shall have compiled and laid before Horwood, Martin Robertson, Hugh the House of Commons a report containing an assessment of the Hosie, Stewart Robertson, Mr. Laurence impact of the increases in alcohol liquor duty on— Howarth, David Robinson, rh Mr. Peter (a) the competitiveness of licenses premises, and Howarth, Mr. Gerald Rosindell, Andrew Howell, John Rowen, Paul (b) the level of employment in alcohol-related industry, Huhne, Chris Russell, Bob and the House of Commons shall, by resolution, have Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Sanders, Mr. Adrian approved that report.’. Hunter, Mark Scott, Mr. Lee Jack, rh Mr. Michael Selous, Andrew The Second Deputy Chairman: With this it will be Jackson, Mr. Stewart Shepherd, Mr. Richard convenient to discuss amendment 12, page 5, line 37, at Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Simmonds, Mark end insert— Kawczynski, Daniel Simpson, David ‘(8) The Treasury will, prior to the 2009 Pre-budget Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Simpson, Mr. Keith statement— Key, Robert Smith, Sir Robert Kirkbride, Miss Julie Soames, Mr. Nicholas (a) publish an assessment of the level of revenue yield Knight, rh Mr. Greg Spelman, Mrs. Caroline anticipated from alcohol liquor duty based on it Kramer, Susan Spicer, Sir Michael being levied on the rates of duty in this section, and Lamb, Norman Spring, Mr. Richard (b) publish an assessment of the level of alcohol liquor Lansley, Mr. Andrew Stanley, rh Sir John duty required to be levied on each type of drink on Laws, Mr. David Steen, Mr. Anthony an equitable basis based on the alcohol content to Lewis, Dr. Julian Streeter, Mr. Gary generate the same level of revenue yield.’. Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Stunell, Andrew Lidington, Mr. David Swayne, Mr. Desmond Mr. Browne: Amendment 10, tabled by me and by Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Swinson, Jo some of my hon. Friends, seeks to prevent increases in Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Syms, Mr. Robert alcohol duty for three years unless or until a report on Loughton, Tim Tapsell, Sir Peter its impact on the pubs and industry sector is undertaken Luff, Peter Taylor, Matthew and approved by the House in the meantime. Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Timpson, Mr. Edward MacNeil, Mr. Angus Tredinnick, David Mr. Greg Hands (Hammersmith and Fulham) (Con): Main, Anne Turner, Mr. Andrew Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Malins, Mr. Humfrey Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Maples, Mr. John Vara, Mr. Shailesh Mr. Browne: I will, although I have hardly started. Mason, John Wallace, Mr. Ben Mates, rh Mr. Michael Waterson, Mr. Nigel Mr. Hands: I am slightly confused by the amendment. Maude, rh Mr. Francis Watkinson, Angela It states McIntosh, Miss Anne Webb, Steve “No further amendment may be made to section 5 of ALDA 1979”, McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Weir, Mr. Mike but that section appears to apply only to spirits. The Mercer, Patrick Whittingdale, Mr. John amendment does not mention section 36, which deals Miller, Mrs. Maria Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann with beer, section 62, which deals with cider, or schedule 1, Moore, Mr. Michael Wiggin, Bill which deals with wine. Is it the hon. Gentleman’s intention Moss, Mr. Malcolm Willetts, Mr. David that only spirit duties be frozen for three years, or it is Mulholland, Greg Williams, Hywel his intention that all duties be frozen for three years? Mundell, David Williams, Mark Murrison, Dr. Andrew Williams, Mr. Roger Mr. Browne: It is my intention that the Government Neill, Robert Williams, Stephen Newmark, Mr. Brooks examine their policy on alcohol taxation, which is of Willis, Mr. Phil great concern to my constituents and, I believe, to those O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Wilson, Mr. Rob Öpik, Lembit of many other Members. Some Members will be Wilson, Sammy particularly concerned with the issue of whisky, which I Paice, Mr. James Wishart, Pete Paterson, Mr. Owen know is a preoccupation of many who represent Scottish Yeo, Mr. Tim Penning, Mike constituents, but others are concerned about other aspects Younger-Ross, Richard Penrose, John of alcohol duty. Pickles, Mr. Eric Tellers for the Noes: Pritchard, Mark Dan Rogerson and Mr. Hands: Will the hon. Gentleman make the position Pugh, Dr. John Jeremy Wright entirely clear? Is he suggesting that there should be no freezing of cider duty, for instance? That is what his Question accordingly agreed to. amendment implies. Clause 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Mr. Browne: Conservative Members always labour under the misapprehension that no one in Taunton Clause 11 drinks anything other than cider. They have me bang to rights, because my constituents will be unable to enjoy RATES OF ALCOHOLIC LIQUOR DUTY any sort of social life if measures affecting cider are passed. Sadly, that used to be truer than it is now. Cider Mr. Jeremy Browne: I beg to move amendment 10, is not as widely drunk in my constituency as it once page 5, line 35, at end insert— was— 779 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 780

Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD) rose— Several hon. Members rose—

Mr. Browne: It is widely drunk in Somerton and Mr. Browne: As what I have just said is the case, I Frome, though. I give way to my hon. Friend. think it is best that I make a little headway for the moment, and try to explain why I think the Government’s Mr. Heath: I merely wish to make it clear that the alcohol escalator acts to the detriment of a good number social life in my constituency would be considerably of our constituents. impaired if cider were not available. Ministers frequently make the point that there have been changes in lifestyle patterns in the United Kingdom, Mr. Browne: I am not saying that it would not be and that the rates of taxation charged on alcohol of all impaired in my constituency. I am merely saying that it types is not the sole determining factor of demand for would not be completely compromised. those products. I accept that: people behave differently and society is different from how it was 20 or 30 years The effect of the amendment is on the amendment ago, and people have modified their behaviour quite paper for all to see, but I think it would be useful to outside how that is influenced by duty levels on alcohol. expand my arguments so that all Members can understand Also, although the popular perception is that alcohol the context not just of the amendment, but of Government consumption is soaring, the reverse is the case: the total policy as I understand it, and the impact that it will have UK sales of most types of alcohol are declining. Within in Taunton, in Somerton and Frome, and indeed in that overall big picture, there are changes in the way every constituency in the country. that people consume alcohol, such as the extent to I am pleased to see that the current debate is relatively which they consume it at home as opposed to in licensed well attended compared with our earlier deliberations, premises. That is one consideration, and I do not say because what we are discussing has a profound impact. that the Government are responsible for those changing The Government’s current policy is to increase the duty lifestyle patterns. Indeed, in some regards they may on alcohol over and above the rate of inflation. Conservative even have advantages, although in other regards they Members may remember when the right hon. and learned may have disadvantages. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) introduced the fuel There are additional factors. The smoking ban, for duty escalator. This is the equivalent of that, except that example, has undoubtedly had an impact on some it affects alcohol rather than fuel. establishments. Establishments that specialise in serving food alongside the sale of alcohol may even have benefited Several hon. Members rose— from the smoking ban, but it has undoubtedly had an adverse effect on the business of institutions that do not Mr. Browne: I shall give way to the hon. Member for have food so high up their pitch to their customers. I Banbury (Tony Baldry). think all Members would accept that. There will be Members present who voted in different ways. I voted Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): The hon. Gentleman against the smoking ban, but I was in a small minority. says that the purpose of the amendment is there for all Most Members voted for its introduction in England, to see. In fairness, however, he has not yet answered the but the ban has undoubtedly had an adverse impact on point put by my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith a number of bars, pubs and restaurants in England. and Fulham (Mr. Hands). With respect, I am not really interested in cider. What I in north Oxfordshire am Mr. Dunne: Not only do the Liberal Democrats no interested in is Hook Norton beer, and I want to know longer represent Shropshire in this House, but I can whether the amendment will apply to beer. Why has the reasonably confidently predict that they will barely hon. Gentleman selected only whisky? Has he done so represent Shropshire at the local authority level on in order to placate the Scottish nationalists and others 5 June. on the Benches behind him, and why is the Liberal I, too, voted against the smoking ban, and one of my party not concerned about the future of the English reasons for doing so was to allow pubs in my constituency pub and English beer? to continue to attract customers, many of whom have smoked. Many pubs also have breweries attached to Mr. Browne: Whisky is, indeed, important, and I them. I am told by the Society of Independent Brewers, would not wish to diminish its importance—I know whose best bitter I judged in Ludlow castle on Sunday, that the Conservative party has almost no representation that my constituency has more independent brewers in Scotland, which may have some bearing on its thinking than any other, and they are extremely concerned about on this matter. My concern is across the board: I am the increases through the beer duty escalator proposed extremely concerned about the impact on people who in this Budget. drink beer, cider and every other alcoholic drink on which Members may wish to offer representations or 10.15 pm make some special pleading. Mr. Browne: Sir Michael, that intervention may have been of a better length if the hon. Gentleman had cut Several hon. Members rose— out all the predictions about the local elections, which do not seem to have a direct bearing on clause 11. Let us Mr. Browne: I will give way in a moment. This is a not go through every county and make predictions wider debate; the overall concern is the impact on pubs, about the local elections, not least because whenever the brewers and people who work in this industry. I regret Conservatives in my area make such predictions they that no amendments were tabled either by Labour Back always look stupid afterwards. Who knows what the Benchers or by any Conservative Member. future holds? Everybody has their turn in the spotlight. 781 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 782

[Mr. Jeremy Browne] the only cider manufacturer left in Taunton Deane—and produces an excellent product. It is noticeable that, I regret that some Members of other parties seem to when people drink cider or other alcoholic drinks on place less importance on the matter before us than I do. the premises in traditional pubs, they are drinking in a We are dealing with the impact that Government policy controlled environment so it is much less likely to be on alcohol taxation is having on pubs, brewers—the detrimental to their health than if they were drinking in hon. Gentleman rightly pointed that out—and people other circumstances. That is partly why community who work in the entertainment industry. It is well pubs have a civilising influence in many cases that known that pubs are closing at an alarming rate in this would not be so obviously witnessed with other forms country. It is not our duty in this House to try to ensure of retailer. Many people think that alcohol consumed in that pubs that are unable to attract customers remain in those circumstances is better than alcohol consumed in business regardless of their ability to sell their product others. at an attractive price to the people who choose—or do I said that the majority of British people—I accept not choose—to go to them. Nevertheless, there is a that this is unsurprising—oppose an increase in duty discernable pattern and it is undoubtedly influenced by and an increase over and above inflation year on year, a number of factors. I mentioned lifestyle changes, and but I am told by the British Beer and Pub Association the smoking ban is also a factor, but price—specifically that 49 per cent. of Labour MPs oppose the increase. the price differential between sales in licensed premises That is a very precise figure, and not quite half of and in off licences—is certainly a factor. Most people Labour MPs. I am pleased to see much better representation would accept that that is having an impact, on pubs in on the Labour Benches than has been the case for other particular. aspects of the Bill. It is still a modest turnout, but I I am told by the British Beer and Pub Association hope that those Labour Members who have attended that 70 per cent. of people oppose this increase in duty. have come to champion the interests of their constituents, That does not necessarily surprise me, but it is strange licensed premises, brewers and people who work in the that it has become almost the received wisdom in political entertainment sector in their constituencies. circles that putting higher duty on alcohol is popular. VisitEngland, the organisation that is given money to When I leave Westminster I find far fewer people who promote tourism, has awarded the English pub industry are enthusiastic about increasing alcohol duty than I do its Enjoy England award for outstanding contribution when I talk to think-tanks and others here, who tell me to tourism. Previous winners include Sir Paul McCartney, what a very good idea it is. the Queen and the Harry Potter films, so that is a measure of how much we value the traditional pubs in Mr. Redwood: Does the hon. Gentleman agree with our society.They are enjoyed not only by all our constituents the publicans, who have lobbied most of us in this but by people who visit this country and regard visiting House, that this latest duty increase could be the straw a pub and drinking the sort of drinks that are only that breaks the camel’s back, given the recessionary available in this country as essential to the intrinsic influences also bearing on the pub trade? appeal of being a tourist here. Mr. Browne: Not only do I agree, but the evidence is Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): I know that there for all to see. Six or so pubs are closing on a daily my hon. Friend is a great supporter of the fight to keep basis, so the camel’s back has been broken for them. open pubs in his constituency. Has he had the benefit of The margins are fine on so-called liquid sales; the profit work by the Pub is the Hub campaign, which underlines made by the publican, be it on spirits, beer, cider or any the contribution that pubs make to the local community—it example that one chooses to highlight, is very modest. is much wider than their direct business contribution? That is why so many pubs have, understandably, diversified For example, in my constituency the Tree inn in Stratton into food and accommodation, but it becomes extremely now has a post office. It has reopened in the pub and is problematic for publicans if they are not able to make providing a fantastic service for the people of Stratton. some sort of meaningful profit from their core business Is that not a fine example of the contribution that pubs of selling alcohol. make? Bill Wiggin (Leominster) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman say something about the tremendous amount of work Mr. Browne: It is a perfect example. In many villages, that all sorts of bodies, in particular the National the pub just selling alcohol to the residents of that Association of Cider Makers, have done on responsible village is no longer a viable economic business model, drinking? The Government’s idea that increasing duty for the all the reasons I have touched on. Pubs are will be beneficial is counter-intuitive and does a great having to diversify and if they have done so well, they deal of damage to those bodies, which are working so have often been very successful. Some provide more hard. While I am on the matter of health, has he seen food for Sunday lunches or evening meals, and some the Government deputy Chief Whip, who normally provide accommodation— appears at these later hours—he certainly appeared at all times during consideration of the Apprenticeships, Mr. Heath: Skittles! Skills, Children and Learning Bill—and does the hon. Gentleman know whether he is all right? Mr. Browne: I shall come to skittles later in my contribution. Pubs also offer other services that are not Mr. Browne: If I think about it, perhaps I will be able necessarily part of the core offering of the pub. Postal to work out what the second half of that intervention services have been mentioned, but if a village no longer meant. Perhaps I should just address myself to the first has a shop or any other outlet where the public can half. Sheppy’s Cider is based in my constituency—sadly gather, the pub can be where people learn about social 783 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 784 activities, or where the Rotary club meets. It would be a Mr. Browne: I am delighted to hear that. Perhaps you mistake to see pubs solely as an outlet for alcohol, but I might seek to encourage Members to talk about pubs fear that Ministers, when they proposed these above- they enjoy visiting in their constituencies, Sir Michael. inflation increases, failed fully to understand the wider The general point is an extremely good one. When pubs social impact of their policies. close, they rarely reopen and are lost to the community. The planning laws make it hard for pubs to reopen in Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) many cases, but when they do it can be an extremely (Con): It is indeed important that we defend these great successful venture. It is also worth noting, in passing, British institutions. Skittles has been mentioned, but that when new housing estates are built—the Government may I make a plea for darts? The game of darts is still aspire to have 3 million new houses, although characteristically British and intimately associated with progress has been slower than they might have hoped in public houses, which is usually where people first learn that regard—they are rarely built with community amenities and practise the game. What could be closer to the such as village halls, churches or pubs. People who live aesthetic of Britishness than the game of darts played in many new developments keenly feel that their community in a pub with a warm pint of bitter? would be greatly enhanced by a gathering point, such as a pub, where people can go for a sociable drink and also Mr. Browne rose— get to know other people, attend Rotary club meetings and so on. That only serves to highlight the importance The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. May I ask the of the sector, and why it is so clearly unwise of the hon. Gentleman to concentrate on the amendment, Government to try to penalise people in it. before we start to talk about dominoes? 10.30 pm Mr. Browne: Sir Michael, your guidance is invaluable. The only thing that I would say is that I visited Andy Mr. Bone: I am following the hon. Gentleman’s powerful Fordham’s pub when he won the world darts championship speech with great interest, but will he tell the Committee a few years ago. It was fantastic to see the world darts how many pubs in his constituency have closed already? trophy behind the bar, next to the crisps and peanuts on At least three in my constituency have and the one in sale there. Darts, right up to the highest level, is intrinsic Little Irchester, where the Hell’s Angels always used to to people’s enjoyment of pubs. gather, has been flattened. That is a great loss to the town, and things will only get worse. What has been the That takes me neatly—and conveniently in terms of impact in Taunton? not incurring your wrath, Sir Michael—back to the representations that I have had from my constituents on Mr. Browne: I carry out extensive research into the this matter. I have received an enormous volume of well-being of the pub sector in my constituency, as you correspondence from people in my constituency and might be able to tell, Sir Michael. I cannot give the hon. from institutions. They are extremely upset that the Gentleman a precise figure, but a number of pubs have Government’s policies are likely to make it far harder closed. What is alarming and notable is that they have for pubs and other entertainment retailers to stay in closed everywhere—in Taunton itself, which is a reasonably business. Indeed, in the past few weeks alone I have sized town with a population of 63,000, and in villages received representations from “The Westgate Inn” in too. It is extremely unusual for villages to have two Taunton; the “Allerford Inn” in Norton Fitzwarren; pubs, as was common even 10 years ago. The sector is “The Blagdon Inn”in Blagdon Hill, just outside Taunton; contracting the whole time. “The Bear Inn” in Wiveliscombe, which was Somerset As I said earlier, it is not in our gift to ensure that all Campaign for Real Ale pub of the year last year and businesses are successful. Some pubs that are failing to has, I think, a very good skittles alley; “The Crown meet their customers’ expectations may not be viable Hotel” in Exford; “The Holywell Inn” in Taunton Deane; businesses, but the amendment asks whether the and many others, including “The Swan”, “The Bell Government, as an act of policy, should be making it Inn”, “The Cottage Inn”, “The Bridge Inn” and “The even harder for businesses to be profitable and successful. Waggon Inn”. I list those institutions only because I maintain that they should not. those who are less familiar with Taunton Deane than I am—a large number of Conservative MPs visit my Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): I am absolutely constituency, however, so perhaps I will take the opportunity in favour of the pub culture in our way of life, but does to show them some of these institutions—will not know the hon. Gentleman agree that there are two reasons that that list contains a wide range of different pubs. why pubs are suffering? First, the drink-drive laws mean Some are in Taunton, which is a reasonably sizeable that people drink at home and, secondly, people can town, and others are in quite isolated villages, but they buy cheap alcohol in supermarkets. Would it not be all share the concern held by me and many other hon. more sensible to raise the price of alcohol in supermarkets Members that the Government’s proposals will impact to help the pubs? adversely on their businesses. Mr. Browne: There are a number of reasons why pubs Mr. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): are suffering. I touched on changing lifestyles, and I My hon. Friend is making a very powerful case. Does suppose that one could incorporate the drink-drive laws he agree that when pubs shut it is very difficult for the in that. Certainly, there have been big changes in what is planning authority to resist an application for change of regarded as socially acceptable, although the relevant use? When such applications are resisted, the pub in laws have not changed for a while. The hon. Gentleman question can often be resurrected and can be profitable did not mention the smoking ban, the effect of which I and secure in the future. “The Old Barn Inn” in Three acknowledge has been chequered: although it may have Cocks and “The Shoemakers” in Pentrebach are now had a positive effect in some establishments, in most it doing very well indeed. was probably a negative one. 785 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 786

[Mr. Jeremy Browne] Mr. Mark Todd (South Derbyshire) (Lab): I was fortunate enough to miss the start of the hon. Gentleman’s However, the hon. Member for Luton, North (Kelvin speech—[Laughter.] He may have covered this point in Hopkins) makes a very fair point about alcohol off-sales. his oration, which has lasted half an hour or so, but I Anyone who goes shopping will know just how cheap am puzzled about how his proposal relates to the alcohol is in supermarkets compared with pubs. I observe competitive position of a pub against another provider that customers seem keen to buy alcohol sold cheaply in of alcohol. If one simply reduced the duty or altered supermarkets. The public do not greet it with great how the Government increase the duty, it would affect hostility, but the differential involved makes it that all sellers of alcohol equally. The competitive position much harder for pubs and other licensed establishments of pubs would not be altered one iota. to be successful. The differential also makes it harder for traditional Mr. Browne: I regret giving way to a Member who, brewers to be successful, because they are rarely able to first, was not interested enough in the subject to turn up offer to the supermarkets the heavily discounted alcohol at the beginning of the debate—it is not as though we that the large international brewers can offer. Therefore, are early in the working day—and, secondly, was so they are at a price disadvantage even within the supermarket, discourteous. However, I shall answer the hon. Gentleman’s because the economies of scale are not sufficiently big point. I think that drinking in pubs is quite price for them to be able to manufacture to the level that sensitive—more so than other environments in which means that supermarkets will offer their products at a people consume alcohol. Pubs are more price sensitive great discount. than bars that sell in large volume. I am not convinced that the Government’s policy will have a profound impact on binge drinking: people who go and drink Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Surely the hon. Gentleman 12 pints of very strong lager are unlikely to modify their does not want the many thousands of people who visit behaviour, and if they do, it will take the form of Asda in Taunton to pay more for their shopping than drinking 11 and a half pints of very strong lager, the they need to. Does he want to penalise all those people effect of which will be little different. On the other who drink perfectly responsibly but who want to do so hand, people of more modest means who drink in a at home, or the many hundreds of people who work at pub, in a village or an urban area, can be more price Asda in Taunton? Surely not. sensitive: they may choose not to visit the pub, or to have only one pint, rather than one and a half. There is Mr. Browne: Asda in Taunton is the company’s south- a price factor. west regional training centre. It is an extremely important As I said, a pub has a range of social dimensions, and and significant local employer, as are Sainsbury, Tesco the impact on them of sales taking a different form may and Morrison. All of them do very well in Taunton. not be so keenly felt. However, my hon. Friend the I said that lifestyles are changing and that people Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath), who want to buy alcohol from supermarkets to drink at defers to no one in his knowledge of Somerset as a home while they are watching a DVD or the football. I whole, mentioned skittles. Readers of Somerset County am not saying that the Government have it within their Gazette will see among all the reports of how well gift to change that—lifestyles are changing. My point is Somerset’s cricketers are doing the publication of the that for someone who is trying to run a pub in Taunton skittles leagues. Those leagues, like the darts leagues, are or anywhere else, the above-inflation duty increases are based around pubs: most pubs have skittles alleys which making business harder, which is creating problems at are about the length of this Chamber and as wide as the precisely the point when those other factors are militating area between the red lines, and many people visit pubs against publicans. to play skittles as part of teams against another pub team. When they are there— Several hon. Members rose— The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. I would find it helpful if the hon. Gentleman explained how his remarks Mr. Browne: Perhaps no one else will need to make a relate to his amendment—directly, I mean. speech—I shall just use the opportunity of mine to give everyone a chance to speak. I give way to the hon. Mr. Browne: I shall do so briefly and directly, Sir Michael. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir). Mr. Hayes: The amendment refers to a report on Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I agree with much of competitiveness. I appreciate that this may take some what the hon. Gentleman says. Obviously, rising duty is time, but could the hon. Gentleman outline the substance one factor, but is not another the way in which the pub and nature of that report? Could he add an element of trade is now run, in many cases by large pubcos? They quantification in his analysis, and could he tell us how are putting huge costs on those who are trying to run the report will be drawn up with reference to whom will pubs, and adding the duty on top of that is often the it be drawn up, who will be consulted, and what form last straw. will it take?

Mr. Browne: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I think Mr. Browne: I am grateful for that intervention. I we all agree that there are a large numbers of relevant hope that a wide range of people will be consulted, factors, but whatever they are, the increase in duty is the including skittles teams, publicans, brewers and others. last straw. On that point, he is united with the right hon. Subsection (6B) of my amendment refers to Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), who also “(a) the competitiveness of licenses premises, and thinks it is the last straw. (b) the level of employment in alcohol-related industry”. 787 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 788

Sir Robert Smith: An important message that the up, supermarkets sell many products, and so can Government have to take on board when it comes to the occasionally absorb the cost of increased duty to keep competitiveness of the alcohol industry is that we should prices low and attract people in? It therefore affects have regard to the export industry that we have built up, pubs disproportionately when duty goes up on beer. in particular on the back of the expertise in the whisky industry. My point relates not just to whisky, but all the Mr. Browne: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. spirits industries that have grown up in Scotland on the I do not want to stray too far, but there is also a back of the whisky industry. The export industry depends difference between pricing a product competitively and on access to other markets, and if our own Government deliberately selling it at less than the cost price to drive are penalising the product at home, it is much more competitors out of business. That is a legitimate point. I difficult to argue about opening up markets abroad. tried to give a comprehensive answer to the question asked by the hon. Member for South Derbyshire Mr. Browne: My hon. Friend is a champion of the (Mr. Todd), who was insufficiently interested to turn up industry and makes the point perfectly. at the beginning of the debate. What I said was that the impact was experienced differently in different sectors. I Mr. Bone: Before the hon. Gentleman concludes his thought that that was the case 10 minutes ago, and I still opening remarks, could he explain subsections (6A) and think that it is the case. (6B) in his amendment? I am trying to make up my Before I conclude, I want to deal with the effect on mind whether to vote for it. Would subsection (6A) brewers, because Members who are not as familiar with restrict Parliament’s ability to reduce duty? It seems to Taunton Deane as I am may not know that there are say that we could not reduce it in the next three years. I four distinguished beer brewers in my constituency. would like his views on that. 10.45 pm Mr. Browne: That is an interesting point. I hope that Mr. Bone: Name them. the review would consider it and make recommendations. I am sure that the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury Mr. Browne: Cotleigh Brewery, which is based in could, if she was so minded, say that the reason why the Wiveliscombe—its leading beer is tawny beer, which I Government wished to oppose the amendment was that strongly recommend to anyone who visits the area; they had had a complete change of mind and were Exmoor Ales, which is also based in Wiveliscombe, and upset that the amendment would restrict their ability to is the producer of the award-winning Exmoor gold; cut duty in future years. That would give me a good Taunton Brewing Company which, confusingly, is not reason to withdraw it. in Taunton, but has a brewery in the village of West Wagborough in my constituency; and Quantock Ales Mr. Newmark rose— which, confusingly, is not in the Quantocks but is on the edge of Wellington in an area called Chelston. All four Mr. Browne: I was keen to get on to the impact on brewers are much appreciated and valued by people in brewers, but I give way to the hon. Gentleman. my constituency. The first two—Cotleigh Brewery and Exmoor Ales—have about 10 employees each, so they Mr. Newmark: I have just one supplementary question are not insubstantial operations. The second two are to those asked by my hon. Friend the Member for much smaller businesses—they employ only one or two South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes). He people. As I said, Cotleigh Brewery and Exmoor Ales asked a number of important questions about proposed employ about 10 people each and produce well over new subsection (6B), but another important question is 1 million pints of beer a year, which are widely sold in how much the report that the hon. Member for Taunton pubs throughout Somerset and the south-west, Dorset (Mr. Browne) proposes to compile will cost the taxpayer. and Devon. Not only are those breweries significant local employers Mr. Browne: I think that the cost will be considerably but they are part of the heritage and fabric of the less than the cost to the taxpayer of the industry continuing community that I represent. The first two breweries are to suffer as it does, due to the number of pub closures based in Wiveliscombe, which has a population of just and the number of other licensed establishments affected. over 2,000, and has a brewing tradition that goes back Of course, the precise cost would depend on how many hundreds of years and is intrinsic to the town’s character. people were consulted. I think that the consultation Not only do those breweries produce excellent beers should be broad, because there are so many groups that people in my area enjoy drinking either in bottled affected by the issue, including those responsible for form from shops and supermarkets and pubs but they postal services and rotary clubs that meet in pubs in my contribute just as much as the pubs to the character of constituency. In the grand scheme of things, the cost is the area that I represent. Moreover, as the comments tiny compared to the huge social impact that is felt from Visit England show, they contribute to the overall when the sector is under threat. character of the country. I am sure that many Members enjoy, as I do, different drinks depending on where they Philip Davies: The hon. Gentleman glossed over the are in the country. If I visited Yorkshire, there are question asked by the hon. Member for South Derbyshire excellent beers and other drinks in Yorkshire that I (Mr. Todd), who made the point that if duty went up would— equally on the alcohol in supermarkets and the alcohol in pubs, pubs would be at no competitive disadvantage. The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. Will the hon. Does the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne) agree Gentleman direct his remarks to his amendment? These that whereas pubs sell only alcohol, and therefore have are serious matters for people involved in these industries, to increase the burden on the customer when duty goes and he ought to concentrate on his amendment. 789 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 790

Mr. Browne: Thank you, Sir Michael. I was seeking of the impact of these high and rising duty rates on the to be serious, and I shall conclude. business and why she might think that another proposal is not necessary. Philip Davies: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? In the explanatory notes to the Bill, we are told that clause 11 increases the duty by a nominal 2 per cent. Mr. Browne: Yes, but may I first explain just how However, if we look at what the clause actually says, we many different areas of public life in this country are see that, for example, the standard rate of duty on beer taken up with alcohol-related sales and production, and is to rise from £14.96 to £16.47—a rise of a little over quite how profound the impact of Government increases 10 per cent. in duty over and above the rate of inflation is on all those individuals and sectors of society? It is important David Taylor: The right hon. Gentleman is well known that a report of the type envisaged in amendment 10 is for his erudition and knowledge about a whole range of conducted before further increases are introduced. It is issues. To back up the comments that he is making, will quite wrong for the Government to proceed blindly in he tell the House how much a pint of beer is at his local increasing duty on alcohol, which has had a profoundly pub? When did he last buy one? adverse impact on many people in the past, without their being fully aware of the consequences for all those different people. Mr. Redwood: Sir Michael, I would be wandering far wide of the amendment if I were to go into all my drinking habits. I do not see this as an opportunity to Several hon. Members rose— take the hon. Gentleman on a conducted tour of all the pubs in Wokingham, although he can rest assured that I Mr. Browne: I wonder whether it would be better for fully support my local pubs—just as he supports his, I Members to make speeches. am sure. The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. If the hon. My argument relates to the impact on the national Gentleman is encouraging other Members to make picture of these duty rates. I take the hon. Gentleman speeches, given the time available, perhaps he would like back to where we were. I was pointing out that the to conclude his own. standard rate of duty on beer shows an increase of more than 10 per cent.; I appreciate that there are VAT Mr. Browne: I promised to give way before I concluded, changes as well. There is also an increase in duty per Sir Michael. hectolitre on sparkling cider from £188.10 to £207.20, also an increase of more than 10 per cent. The duty per The Second Deputy Chairman: Perhaps after giving hectolitre on non-sparkling cider whose strength exceeds way, the hon. Gentleman will conclude his speech. 7.5 per cent. also increases, from £43.37 to £47.77—again, a rise of more than 10 per cent. The rate of duty per Philip Davies: I very much support the hon. Gentleman’s hectolitre in any other case increases from £28.90 to comments about the importance of breweries. The recently £31.83, which is yet another increase of more than established Saltaire Brewery in my constituency is thriving. 10 per cent. It would be useful if the Minister took us It supplies local pubs, virtually exclusively. If the duty through her figure work to give us some idea of what, on beer and alcohol puts some of those pubs out of over the period covered by the amendment, the Government business, the hon. Gentleman will have been absolutely have in mind under the alcohol duty escalator that they right to stress that that will be devastating not only for are designing. those pubs, their customers and the local communities, The structure of clause 11 also reminds us that there but for the small breweries that rely on those pubs to are large steps up in duty on categories of wine, depending supply their wares. on whether it is sparkling and on its alcoholic strength. There is a duty increase of about 40 per cent. between Mr. Browne: The hon. Gentleman has summed up my wines of 3.9 per cent. strength and wines of 4.1 per case perfectly and eloquently. I fear that the Government cent. strength. There is more than a doubling of the are on the wrong side of this debate and I hope very duty if the strength goes up from 5.4 to 5.6 per cent. For much that hon. Members, including Labour Members some reason, sparkling wine in the 5.5 to 8.5 per cent. who have their constituents’ interests at heart, will unite bracket is slightly cheaper than the equivalent non-sparkling in support of amendment 10. wine, but for sparkling wine with a strength of more than 8.5 per cent. there is an increase of some 30 per Mr. Redwood: The amendment invites us to change cent. in duty over the standard amount. That does not clause 11. The substance of the argument, as we heard seem to be particularly tidy or fair, and it will mean in that interesting opening, is that the increases in duty different impacts on different elements in the industry. proposed by the Government are too high and could Some people feel that duty is becoming penal at the damage jobs and the industry. An alternative mechanism higher levels, and there is no necessary correlation is proposed for further review so that there would be no between drinking too much and the strength of the further increases in the duty rates unless and until we drink. On some occasions, people are much more careful had taken proper advice about their impact on jobs. with stronger drinks, for obvious reasons, and one has That has a lot to recommend it, and I look forward to to be a little careful about the gradations. hearing what my party’s Front Benchers think about it. We need some background on how these duties are When the Minister responds, it would be helpful if tabled. Without a better explanation of why they are she explained a little more about the workings of the fair and just and related to wider social aims, it seems increases and the escalator in clause 11 so that we can attractive on the surface that there should be a pause in judge what account, if any, the Government have taken the escalator and a proper review of its impact. 791 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 792

Bob Spink: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that cases, and when some people’s incomes are falling because one problem with the Liberal amendment is that it bonus payments have been removed, or because people would prevent any decrease in, or indeed the removal are doing only three or four days’ work a week, or of, the escalator over the next three years? missing one week in four or whatever.

Mr. Redwood: I think that latecomers should refrain 11 pm from making comments that have already been made by Kelvin Hopkins: Does the right hon. Gentleman not hon. Members who have decided to take this rather accept that the depreciation of the pound or the appreciation more seriously. As you rightly reminded us, Sir Michael, of the euro, however one likes to look at it, is actually of it is an extremely serious issue for a very large number benefit to the economy? We are starting to see a turnaround of businesses and constituents throughout the country. in our chronic balance of trade deficit, and demand is We have all been impressed by the energy of those who being directed towards domestic producers of other are desperately trying to save their industry and their things. That is helping employment and the economy. Is local pubs. They have been to see us here in the Palace the depreciation of the pound not a very good thing of Westminster, they have been to see Ministers, they indeed? have sent a great number of e-mails and personal correspondence, and they have often been to Members’ constituency advice surgeries. It well behoves anybody Mr. Redwood: We must be careful not to make this a in the House not to try to turn this into some kind of wider economic debate, and we have dealt with that knockabout but to see that it involves big issues about matter in such debates. I have always said that devaluation jobs, prices, communities and ways of life that matter a should help domestic manufacture relative to overseas great deal to our constituents. manufacture and should start to make some correction to the balance of payments. However, what we are As we have heard—I do not wish to bore the House concerned about this evening is the sectoral impact of a by repeating it—a point can be reached where an increase particular tax increase on the jobs and prosperity generated in taxation can suddenly tip over into doing far more by the alcohol and entertainment industry. I am adding serious damage. My worry is that we are reaching that that point that inflation is also harmful, and there is a point against the background of recession. It may well double whammy of inflation in the alcohol sector. That be that in more normal years there was agreement is coming partly through the sterling effect, to the extent across the House that there needed to be a certain level that drinks are imported, but more importantly there is of duty, or even an increase in duty, for health or a direct inflationary impact from the measure that we revenue-raising reasons. However, against the background are discussing this evening. We are also discussing the of great pressure on the economy, a squeeze on many attempt to prevent future increases, at least for a period people’s incomes, a squeeze on company cash flow, and pending further review, as suggested in the amendment. businesses experiencing difficulty in raising from the banks working capital or money for their wider purposes, Mr. Newmark: The hon. Member for Luton, North the Government should pause to reflect on whether this (Kelvin Hopkins) made an important point about the is the appropriate moment to introduce such a tax currency shift when we have a declining currency. The increase and whether they have done a proper study of Prime Minister made an interesting observation in 1992 what impact it may have on jobs and individual businesses. when he was shadow Chancellor, saying: We have already heard examples of small brewers who “A weak currency arises from a weak economy which in turn is could be knocked sideways if demand fell too sharply, the result of a weak Government”. and we all know of pubs at risk in our own constituencies The hon. Gentleman says that a declining currency is and in the wider country. good, but the Prime Minister also made an interesting I am also concerned about the impact on prices. It is observation about a weak currency. dangerous to be as cavalier as the Government appear to be about the inflation risk. One of the attractions of Mr. Redwood: That is quite right, although it takes us the Liberal Democrat amendment is that it is trying to into a wider, general economic matter that is not strictly create a pause in the rate of increase of this particular the point at issue in the amendment. The issue that we set of prices in our economy. I find it extremely worrying must consider is the adverse impact of duty escalators that at a time when output is falling precipitately, and on both jobs and prices. The two are related, of course. when redundancies and unemployment are soaring, as This is a time when people may be losing a week or two we are tragically seeing again today, with about a quarter of work a month because a factory is partially closed. of a million extra unemployed so far this year—an They may have lost overtime or one or two days’ work a alarming development—we still have price inflation, on week, or they may even be off work for three or six the Government’s preferred measure, of about 3 per months because of the temporary closure of big factories, cent. Although there is clearly a lot of deflation in the for example in parts of the motor industry. This extra system, there is still quite a lot of inflation as well, part price increase on something that they like to do for of which is on imports. That is certainly true in the relaxation is not good news, and the Government might drinks industry, because wines and so forth are imported be underestimating the impact it could have on hard-pressed from much stronger currency areas and the devaluation, budgets. along with the increased duty, is increasing price tensions. If alcohol costs too much, fewer people will go to the However, the price tension is not due to that alone; it pub. If fewer people go to the pub, it is more likely that is also due to the impact of Government action. The the pub will close. The Government will then be fuelling Government have to be very careful about the impact a vicious cycle of driving more people out of work and on price inflation of duty hikes and other tax rises, at a causing a further reduction in effective demand, which I time when incomes are not going up at all in many am sure they do not intend to do. They tell us that they 793 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 794

[Mr. Redwood] Mr. Redwood: My hon. Friend is right to say that we could not do it under the provision that we are considering, will do whatever it takes to turn this recession around, but if we are in the fortunate position of having a but this is another case of their taking actions that majority, we could use it to change the law in any way cannot be helpful, and which in parts of the entertainment we liked. I am sure that a Government who got better and alcohol industry will be extremely damaging. It is value for money generally and could set lower tax rates wrong for us to ignore or underestimate the power and would be welcome to the House. That would do more to passion of the lobbying that we have seen in recent speed us out of recession than some of the measures weeks. that we have considered in other debates.

Rob Marris: I share some of the right hon. Gentleman’s Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): concerns, especially about the price of beer. Marston’s, Notwithstanding the point that the hon. Member for the third biggest pub chain, has its headquarters in my Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) made about constituency. However, will he also take into account energy prices, which have an impact on beer prices, is the fact that a major input cost, particularly for breweries, my right hon. Friend aware that the price of malting is energy, and their energy prices have decreased considerably barley has been rising in the past three weeks? It is now compared with 12 months ago? 25 per cent. higher than it was in the futures market in October, so that will wipe out any advantage from Mr. Redwood: Some breweries may experience some energy prices. benefit on energy, but there may not be benefits on Mr. Redwood: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his other input prices. For example, I doubt whether their expertise in that agricultural sector. I knew that agriculture water bills have decreased. Perhaps the news is therefore prices were generally soaring again—because, I suspect, not as good as the hon. Gentleman thinks, but anything of quantitative easing in Britain and America, which that offers some relief is clearly welcome. fuels speculative, early moves into commodities, as one The amendment states: might expect from such inflationary actions. My hon. “No further amendment may be made to” Friend is right to say that it will more than wipe out the the relevant section of the legislation to which it applies possible benefits from energy prices. I was cautious “within three years of the commencement, unless” about the extent of those benefits, because they depend on individual brewers’ contractual positions—several a further condition is fulfilled. My hon. Friend the have long-term contracts, which mean that they do not Member for Hammersmith and Fulham (Mr. Hands) get the automatic pain or pleasure when market prices teased out the important point that the amendment move. unfortunately does not appear to apply to all the types of alcohol we would like it to cover. That may be a slip As I was saying, the cost of the report is a reasonable in the drafting, but it puts hon. Members in a slightly cost and one that can be contained by a sensible difficult position because we would like to support the Government. It would be a good idea to conduct a whole alcohol industry, not only the spirits sector. I wider study and get some information about what the would like the amendment to cover beer, cider and impact might be on jobs and prices. Indeed, that would domestically produced wine—that would mean covering be necessary in order to make an assessment of the all wine—as well as spirits. impact on employment. Under the amendment, the condition that must be When I tried to tease out the view of the mover of the fulfilled before a further increase is allowed is amendment, the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne), on the balance of forces that are causing so many pub “that the Chancellor of the Exchequer shall have compiled and closures, he said he felt that at the moment price increases laid before the House of Commons a report containing an assessment of the impact of the increases in alcohol liquor duty could be an important factor. I certainly agree with him on… the competitiveness of licensed premises, and… the level of that social change is also an important factor. There are employment in alcohol-related industry, and the House of Commons” people who like to drink drinks other than beer who would have a chance to consider and vote on the report. perhaps associate beer rather more with the pub. There are also people who want to drink their drinks at home One colleague asked a perfectly good question about or in some other social setting, rather than in the local the cost of the report. It is right to show concern about pub. There are all sorts of social changes under way, runaway public spending, even when it comes down to which has meant a trend against the pub. However, the such relatively small details. However, given the wide hon. Gentleman is right—and many hon. Members range of civil servants and the substantial recruitment agree with him—that at this juncture prices could be of civil servants that the Government have undertaken particularly damaging and that, for a pub or a small in recent years, I hope that existing teams could absorb brewer, they could be the straw that breaks the camel’s the task. I am sure that the industry would make any back. We know that the rate of pub closures is currently evidence and information available to those compiling unacceptably high. the report. I therefore hope that that worry will be allayed if the Government promise to act in a value-for- The requirement laid out in amendment 10 is that the money spirit and ascertain whether the report could be report should look into covered in the normal course of their operations. “the competitiveness of licenses premises,” although that should perhaps be “licensed premises”. I Mr. Bone: Assuming that there is a new Conservative take that to mean that the report would have to consider Government in the next year and that they want to cut carefully the relationship between pricing and demand duty immediately so that the people of the United and the impact of the duty on that pricing. If the Kingdom can celebrate with gusto, we could not do that Government’s idea is a permanent escalator, we will if we accepted the provision. need to think through the compound arithmetic and see 795 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 796 what impact it might have. The Government also need In general terms, the industry considers this year’s to do those calculations to see what impact the change rises bad news. They are particularly bad news for an could have on the level of duty collected, because there industry that employs 10,000 people directly and 40,000 will come a point at which it is self-defeating. directly and indirectly in Scotland, and a total of 65,000 The amendment also invites the Government to comment directly and indirectly in the UK. It is not only the on the kernel of the argument being put forward this whisky industry that will be affected but the drinks evening, which is the level of employment in the alcohol- sector generally, which has already asked the Government related industry. The industry has different components: to abandon the 2 per cent. above inflation tax escalator it has the producers of alcoholic products and all the on alcohol. people involved in marketing, sales and distribution, That request has been based in part on the work done but it also has those involved in hospitality and leisure by Oxford Economics, which has looked at the effect of who use alcoholic products as part of a wider offering last year’s 17 per cent. average leap in excise duty and at to the public. That is the feature that has led so many the implications of the four-year tax escalator. Its five-year hon. Members to be so passionate about the defence of study estimates that there will be about 75,000 job their local pub trade and their local pubs, as important losses in the drinks industry. In the teeth of a recession, establishments in suburbs, communities and villages. having a policy that is likely to lead to job losses is When she responds to this debate, I hope that the foolish. The study predicts that alcohol sales will drop Exchequer Secretary will understand that the House is by over 11 per cent. and that tax revenue from alcohol responding not just to the amendment before us, but to will be £1.6 billion lower than the Treasury originally what lies behind it, which is a very big lobby indeed. estimated. That lobby is warning the Government that the industry For all those reasons, we need to find a better, fairer, is particularly exposed and that the Government’s revenue- evidence-based way of taxing alcohol. We simply cannot raising actions are increasing the agony that businesses go on with the unfairness in the system that results in a are experiencing generally from the impact of the wonky half-pint of beer costing 23.06p in duty and a 125 ml monetary policy, the credit crunch, and the over-extension glass 26.75p, while a 35 ml glass of whisky costs 31.7p and then the sharp withdrawal of credit, all of which in duty, especially when all those measures contain have characterised the unfortunate performance of the precisely the same amount of alcohol. That clearly economy in the past three years. demonstrates the unfairness in the way in which duty is I hope that the Minister will remember to explain to levied on different forms of alcoholic drinks. the House a little more how her clause 11 operates, I have not called for the duty rises to be cancelled, because that will stand part of the Bill if the amendment although that would be very welcome. However, my is not passed. I hope she agrees that the increases in the amendment 12 calls for the evidence that would allow Bill are very large for an economy that, we are told, evidence-based policy making and for the Treasury to should be operating at zero inflation. There are also tell us by the time of this year’s pre-Budget report how some big steps up in the duty on wine, which do not much duty is raised from each of the different kinds of make a lot of sense to quite a lot of people trying to alcoholic drink. The amendment also calls for the wrestle with what the Government are seeking to do. publication of an assessment of 11.15 pm “the level of alcohol liquor duty required to be levied on each type of drink on an equitable basis based on the alcohol content Stewart Hosie: Amendment 12, which stands in my to generate the same revenue yield.” name, is about alcohol duty generally, not the whisky We need that information in order properly to determine, industry in particular, although that is an important on the basis of real evidence, how to tax alcohol fairly, sector and I may make a number of references to it. across the board, and how to protect the vitally important Let me start with the comments of the Scotch Whisky Scotch whisky industry. Other Members will have their Association about last year’s Bill. It said that the 2008 own industries, such as cider houses and breweries. We Budget had been greeted with also need the evidence to ensure that, whatever we do, “extreme dismay…following the Chancellor’s decision to raise the there are no unintended consequences. I am conscious duty on Scotch Whisky by a punitive nine per cent. of the pressures on the brewing industry and the pub Distillers said that the Chancellor had effectively abandoned trade, but also conscious of the unfairness when it government moves towards a fairer alcohol tax policy, worsening comes to the duty levied on whisky. the duty discrimination against Scotch Whisky.” For all those reasons—and ignoring the arguments Those sentiments are broadly shared again this year. that the Minister made last year about how difficult this The association has described the proposed rise, following might be and how Europe would not let us do it—I last year’s cumulative 13.5 per cent. hike—the largest think that it is reasonable to ask for an assessment of rise since the 1970s—as the duty taken on the different kinds of drinks, and of “a blow to the industry that comes at the worst possible time”. the level of duty that would be necessary to create This year’s rise has been described by the SWA as a equitable taxation in future. With that, I will sit down. I real-terms 5 per cent. rise, and the association suggests have heard a number of very long speeches today that that the Treasury is actually likely to see went all round the houses and missed the point. I hope, “lower receipts as the duty rise aggravates already tough market Sir Michael, that people will be grateful for a short, conditions in the UK, the industry’s third largest market”. concise speech. It goes on to say: “The duty rise sets an unwelcome precedent for other governments The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Alan Haselhurst): around the world who are also seeking to raise revenues.” Order. I am sure that Sir Michael would have been That matter has been alluded to before. delighted, but he is not in the Chair at the moment. 797 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 798

Mr. Hands: Thank you, Sir Alan. It is a pleasure to between licensing and the ability of grocers to sell follow the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Stewart alcohol more cheaply than licensed premises are directly Hosie). I shall return to his amendment in due course, pertinent to the amendment. but I was greatly entertained and interested by his passionate defence of the Scotch whisky industry—so Mr. Hands: As ever, my hon. Friend makes a telling much so that I thought that amendment 10 had actually point, dwelling on the history of many of these issues. I been tabled by the Scottish National party. We are, of look forward to hearing the Minister’s response about course, speaking to the Liberal Democrat amendment, that Bill and its impact. which is designed to freeze spirit duty only, while allowing The amendment is wide-ranging and talks about beer and cider duty to continue to rise. reaching It is also a pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the “an assessment of the impact of the increases in alcohol liquor Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), who spoke, duty on… the competitiveness of licenses premises, and… the as always, with a great deal of sense. I look forward to level of employment in alcohol-related industry”. the Minister’s explanation of the duty figures and to her I intend to speak around most of those issues this response to his question about the tipping point, the evening. revenue-maximisation point and other issues facing the industry. One of the main reasons for my speaking tonight is that I am going to outline why we voted against this In speaking to his amendment, the hon. Member for year’s rises in alcohol duties. We see them as blanket Taunton (Mr. Browne) recovered well after a difficult rises that hit all consumers, without making any attempt start, but it is worth repeating that the amendment says to curb problem drinkers. There are also significant that he will freeze only spirit duties for three years, while holes in other aspects of Government policy. For example, he seems quite happy for the above-inflation increases while Labour’s alcohol duty escalator appears still to to continue for wine, beer and cider. exist, it does not seem to apply when the retail prices index is negative. We were told that the escalator was Mr. Jeremy Browne: I caution the hon. Gentleman there to provide stability, but that stability went within a about failing to see the wood for the trees. I made it few months with the new duty rises in the pre-Budget extremely clear in my speech—I do not think many report, and stability and certainty have been eroded would accuse me of not speaking for long enough—that further in the Budget. I am very keen to help those producing beer, cider, wine and other alcoholic drinks. If he feels that the amendment We must ask whether the RPI measure looks forward is not drafted satisfactorily, I regret that he has not or backward. We must also ask what will happen to tabled a better-drafted one, as I would not wish to let alcohol duty when VAT goes up next new year’s eve as the Government off the hook by his splitting hairs on “Auld Lang Syne” rings out. Earlier, I think that we this issue, when it is very clear that I wish to represent heard a concession from the Financial Secretary, who alcohol producers as a whole. suggested that the change might be made in the early hours of new year’s day rather than on new year’s eve. A further question is whether the Government’s huge duty Mr. Hands: The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting rises are a result of health concerns or of a desperate point. Although I am relatively new to the Finance Bill, effort to plug the gaping hole in the public finances, or I did not believe that it was possible to table an amendment perhaps a little bit of both. However, I thought that first to an amendment, so I am not sure how I could have we should conduct an examination of exactly what has tabled an amendment to his amendment. It is important happened over the last 14 months in relation to alcohol to be clear about what we are discussing and amendment duties. 10 deals only with the spirits industry, but I appreciate the spirit in which the hon. Gentleman says that he When the Government introduced their duty escalator actually means the whole industry. I will try to move on at the last Budget, they raised duty by some 6 per cent. from that. across the board. It rose again by 8 per cent. when VAT was reduced in the PBR, and we have a further increase The only other thing I would say about the amendment of 2 per cent. across the board in this year’s Budget. is that it is also clear that no reduction in duty would be Over two Budgets and the intervening PBR, duty on a possible until such time as the report is presented—a typical pint of beer has risen by 8p in a year. A bottle point made very ably by my hon. Friend the Member of wine now carries duty of £1.61, compared with for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) and, albeit some hours £1.34 previously. That is an increase of 27p. afterwards, by the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink), who in his customary fashion has been in and Spirits are up. A bottle of gin carries 82p more duty, out rather quickly. Having said all that and having and a bottle of whisky carries an additional 86p—although listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Taunton, without the Government’s embarrassing U-turn in the I agree with the great majority of what he had to say PBR, the amount would have been even greater. Cider about the issues facing the industry. and perry are also up, as is champagne—which does have some impact on the Treasury, judging by last year’s Mr. Hayes: I know that my hon. Friend is anxious to photographs of large-volume deliveries to it and to move on, but it would be remiss of him not to say other Government premises on and just off Whitehall. something about the relationship between this amendment Let me first outline some of the current health concerns and the Intoxicating Liquor (Licensing) Bill of 1872, about alcohol and their relevance to duty and then to for much of the same argument was used then as was the problems facing the sector, before examining the heard in the Chamber this evening. The issues that the Government’s recent record and setting out some of the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne) articulated Conservative solutions. Health issues have been and with such style and eloquence about the relationship will be a key part of the debate. There are 37 million 799 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 800 responsible drinkers in the United Kingdom, but there 11.30 pm are also about 3 million adults who have some form of Mr. Todd: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that disorder alcohol dependency and another 8 million who have is rather less likely to emanate from the supervised some kind of alcohol-use disorder. That is the picture environment of a public house than from off-licence among adults, but under-age drinking is a problem that sales of alcohol, freely distributed to those who may is often highlighted as well. A tenth of final-year primary drink it in the street, and distribute the packaging all school children at least say that they drink regularly, over the road? and the number rises to 45 per cent. of 14 to 15-year-olds. I understand that, in this context, “regularly” is taken Mr. Hands: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that to mean at least weekly. A fifth of 10 to 15-year-olds say intervention. He makes the telling point that a well- that they get drunk regularly. In 2005-06, more than supervised, well-staffed, professionally run licensed 1,400 children under 14 were admitted to hospital in the establishment will be able to look after such problems United Kingdom as a result of conditions caused by quite well. The real problems, of course, start to arise alcohol abuse. outside the establishment or later on, which is, again, We all know that alcohol is a major contributor to something the industry has to consider. crime and antisocial behaviour. Half of all violent Contrary to popular perception, alcohol consumption crime is drink-related. It probably happens in every one is falling, and actually peaked a few years ago. The total of our constituencies, and it is probably happening now, amount of alcohol sold in the UK fell by 6 per cent. at this late hour. One of the interesting aspects of being between 2004 and 2008. Consumption per head of pure an inner-London Member of Parliament without a alcohol per annum is down from a peak of about second home to return to in the evening is leaving this 9.5 litres in 2004 to about 8.7 litres today, although that place after a 10 pm vote and arriving at Fulham Broadway is still above the figure of 7.5 litres for 1993. This is not tube station between 10.30 and 11 pm. The scene is not to deny that there are problems in the UK with alcohol yet in full swing, but the thumping music makes the consumption, but it goes to show that the sands are whole street vibrate. Drunken youths are already marauding, shifting. This is not the occasion to digress into a full and on some occasions fighting has started. That is one debate on the healthiness or otherwise of alcohol of the many reasons why Hammersmith and Fulham consumption, as we are, after all, looking at the effect council is clamping down on late licences, as far as it on licensed premises, but we need to strike a careful can under Labour’s disastrous Licensing Act 2003. It balance between the interests of the great majority who was the first council in Britain to pay for 24-hour beat drink in sensible moderation as against addressing the policing teams in both Fulham Broadway and Shepherd’s people who abuse alcohol and are responsible for mayhem Bush town centres. and disorder in our town centres, not to mention issues Mr. Hayes: I am delighted that my hon. Friend is such as domestic violence and the expense caused, to making such a strong case for the link between alcohol low-income households in particular, by dependency and lawlessness. If the Minister had studied the 1872 Act and addiction. and the debate on it in more detail, she would know that Beer consumption peaked in 1979, and since I left the same argument was used in the debate on then. university in 1989 beer consumption in pubs has halved. “The testimony on all hands was as strong as testimony could I am not for a moment suggesting a link between those be that every advancing hour of the night brought with it an two facts, but that does put into perspective how quickly increasing ratio of drunkenness…something like from 43 to 45 per this sector has changed. This is not a plea to reject the cent. of the drunkenness occurred after 11 o’clock”.—[Official Report, 11 July 1872; Vol. 212, c. 965.] zeitgeist and return to a golden age of cricket and warm That was what was said then, linking it directly to crime beer in our local pub, but we need to recognise that the and disorder—a link that my hon. Friend is making competitive environment facing pubs is, in many places, now. difficult. Mr. Hands: My hon. Friend makes an important Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): As someone point. It is worth mentioning that the problems I have who admits to being a teetotaller, may I say that pubs just outlined, and of which we are all aware, are not new could be much fairer by recognising that there are problems, but problems that have been with us for some people who do not drink alcohol and by not charging time. That does not abrogate the Government’s the outrageous mark-up that they put on non-alcoholic responsibility to do something about them, however, drinks for those of us who like to go into pubs but do and I shall outline how we might be able to use the duty not want to drink alcohol? Does the hon. Gentleman regime to do something. agree that if we were to address such issues, we could There are, of course, other effects of alcohol abuse. change the whole debate? Since the 2003 Act came into force, there has been a 25 per cent. increase in violent crime reported between Mr. Hands: I am not sure that I quite agree with that. 3 am and 6 am. I do not have up-to-date figures on the There is a limit to how much soft drink prices can be impact of alcohol on domestic violence, but we are all regulated, and I would be slightly nervous about suggesting aware from our constituencies that there is a strong there should be such regulation. I share the hon. correlation. These are serious problems. It in no way Gentleman’s frustration, however; when I am out with downplays their severity to note that they involve a my wife, who rarely drinks alcohol, she constantly talks small minority of drinkers. It would also be wrong to about how expensive an orange juice is relative to the put them entirely at the door of the industry, which is price of beer, in this country at least. That is a fair point. taking action of its own, although it could, and should, Beer duty was increased by a staggering 17.8 per cent. be doing even more. last year, with two big increases in the space of just nine First, let us take a look at the condition of Britain’s months. UK pub beer volumes have fallen by 9.3 per fragile drinks sector. cent. in the past 12 months. The proportion of beer sold 801 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 802

[Mr. Hands] hon. Members. There are some 57,000 pubs and bars in England and Wales, which, according to the Association through the off-trade has risen from about 10 per cent. of Licensed Multiple Retailers, have a combined annual in 1979 to just under 50 per cent. today, and the trend is turnover of approximately £25 billion, which is equivalent accelerating. The rate of decline in beer consumption to about 2 per cent. of our GDP. More than 500,000 overall, across both on and off-trades, which is clear people are directly employed in the industry—about a over 30 years, is accelerating. According to the British third as bar staff—which is more than are employed in Beer and Pub Association, between March 2006 and construction, agriculture and mining put together. March 2007, consumption fell by some 600,000 barrels, According to ALMR, a third of pub revenue goes to between 2007 and 2008 it fell by 1.1 million barrels—that the Exchequer in alcohol and gaming duties. Additional is about twice the rate—and between 2008 and 2009 it revenues are generated through VAT, PAYE and other fell by some 2.2 million barrels. It seems that almost local and national taxes, so the typical pub contributes every year the rate of the deceleration of beer consumption about £155,000 per annum to the Treasury. doubles. We are down to a level where just 28.6 million However, the number of pubs is falling. More than barrels are consumed, across both the on and off-trades 4,000 have closed since 2004, pre-dating the start of and covering all types of beer. Labour’s recession. The trend is now accelerating, with Meanwhile, wine consumption fell for the first time more than 3,000 of those closures taking place in the this year since records began. According to the World past two calendar years. What was a closure rate of five Health Organisation, in 2003 the UK’s overall alcohol a week between 2004 and 2007 has become 40 a week in consumption level was only just above the EU average 2008. What was the weekly closure rate just a couple of and was about the same as that of Switzerland and years ago has become the daily closure rate. Portugal. The UK will have fallen further down that It would be unfair to blame alcohol duties exclusively league table in the five or six years since. Again, that is for that trend. Labour’s Licensing Act 2003 must also not to say that this country does not have a problem bear part of the blame, as must the increased competition with alcohol consumption, because it does, but it is from supermarkets and the smoking ban. worth remembering that consumption has decreased and the type of consumption is changing. These figures John Howell: Does my hon. Friend agree that today’s show that our problem is less related to overall volumes debates will also affect those businesses? We have debated of consumption and more related to the types, patterns corporation tax for large and small businesses, and the and, especially, the effects of alcohol consumption. In VAT decrease and increase. The alcohol duty increase is 2003, the UK’s consumption per head was already just the last in the chain. By design or accident, there is lower than that of either France or Spain—countries a direct causal link with everything that we have debated that many of us would view as having a more responsible today, and it is all coming together to affect this industry. attitude and approach to drinking in general. All that implies that the overall volume of consumption in this country is not necessarily the problem. Mr. Hands: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. He has spoken well in all four of the debates, and he ties A recent study that Oxford Economics published in together the overall impact of Labour’s mismanagement 2008 forecast that, with Labour’s alcohol duty escalator of the economy with reference to the beer and pub in place at retail prices index plus 2 per cent., the sales industry. volume will fall by between 11.5 and 12.4 per cent. over the five financial years following the 2008 Budget. Oxford The pub and bar trade is under pressure elsewhere Economics expects that these rises will too. A couple of weeks ago I was delighted to be hosted by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for “cost between 75,000 and 80,000 people their jobs.” Devizes (Mr. Ancram) and my hon. Friend the Member The decline in alcohol consumption may be welcomed for Westbury (Dr. Murrison) to see at first hand how by many in this House, but none of the evidence points town and village pubs were coping. I say that as someone to a decline in consumption among problem drinkers. who represents an inner-London constituency. Perhaps The duty rises are just a blanket increase in expense for I should get out a little more. One of the most striking the great majority who drink responsibly, and I shall aspects was being shown the entirety of the documentation return to that point in due course. that a pub operator or landlord needs to complete when opening, and again each year, even before a single pint Stewart Hosie: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that is sold. According to the industry, publicans spend an although price may be a factor in, and its use a tool to average of eight hours a week dealing with paperwork, control, problem drinking, he does not see duty being and one in five gives red tape as a reason for becoming part of that? Does he think that instead another mechanism uncompetitive. According to ALMR, which represents unrelated to duty such as minimum pricing in supermarkets large parts of the pub and bar industry, the average could be used? running costs of a pub are some 51 per cent. of turnover, even before rent and the cost of sale are taken into Mr. Hands: The hon. Gentleman makes a telling account. Employment costs have increased— intervention. Obviously, price is an important determinant of consumption patterns, but the one way in which the Rob Marris: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful Government can increase price directly is through duty, case for voting down amendment 10, which calls for and I shall suggest how we might be able to do that in research into the competitiveness of licensed premises due course. and the level of employment in alcohol-related industries. I wish to discuss the number of pubs and bars in From the hon. Gentleman’s speech, he appears to have England and the commercial pressures that are being done all that research already. Will he confirm that he put on them, which have been mentioned by a couple of will vote against the amendment? 803 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 804

Mr. Hands: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that beer problem and the pub problem—will he issue a intervention. It is fair to say that we will not vote for strong warning to the Government, as many of us amendment 10, for many of the reasons that I have would like him to do, that their policies are doing already outlined. It does not really make any sense and untold damage to the pub and licensed trades and that has many flaws. As for pre-judging any report, I have they really ought to think again? certain views about the overall trade, which are shared by many hon. Members on both sides of the House. Mr. Hands: We are; that is what my speech is all On my visit to Wiltshire, I looked at the problems about—the fragile state of the industry and the damage facing licensed premises and the levels of employment that is being wrought on it by the Government. in alcohol-related industries— Mr. Hayes: You have guided us to the exact issue of Mr. Newmark: I invite my hon. Friend to come to the amendment, Sir Alan, and it makes specific reference Braintree, which is a bit closer to London. My constituency to the relationship between duty and competitiveness is semi-rural and contains more than 40 villages. The and the survival of the industry, as my hon. Friend has pub is the heart and soul of many of those villages, but made clear. If we are not going to accept the amendment—I Labour’s policies are destroying them, one by one. That will be guided by my Front Benchers, of course—should not only costs jobs, but affects the whole nature of the not the Government at least conduct some sort of village. Many of the villages in my constituency no thorough research such as that which my hon. Friend is longer have pubs, but they did five years ago. articulating and which is argued for in the amendment?

Mr. Hands: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. Mr. Hands: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. More I would be delighted to accept an invitation to go to research needs to be done and the Government should Braintree. I feel from looking at the statistics that I be aware of all these issues and their impact on the mentioned earlier that it is likely that the picture that he industry. paints is being repeated all over the country. Mr. Bone: I gather that my hon. Friend is referring to 11.45 pm subsection (6B) of the amendment, which concerns the competitiveness of the industry. I have obviously not According to the industry, publicans spend an average decided how I will vote on the amendment, but is not of eight hours a week dealing with paperwork. One in the crux of his argument that we do not need this report five blamed it for their becoming uncompetitive—it about the competitiveness of the industry because we represents 51 per cent. of turnover. Employment costs already know the situation? have increased by almost 59 per cent. over the past decade and ALMR is calling for the 0.5 per cent. rise in national insurance contributions next year to be scrapped— Mr. Hands: Yes. I think that we are aware of most of the problems facing the industry. I would not be opposed The Chairman: Order. I must remind the hon. Gentleman to a further study but we need action now rather than of the terms of the amendment. It excludes that particular awaiting such a study. point. It is about the impact of the increases in alcohol The drinks trade and pub businesses are vital employers. liquor duty, rather than the other matters that he is now According to the Oxford Economics study, some 31,000 describing. people are employed in the UK in drinks manufacture. I shall try to relate this point to duty. Just over half are Mr. Hands: Thank you, Sir Alan, for that guidance. employed in producing beer, some 35 per cent. in producing spirits, 6 per cent. in producing cider and wine and the Mr. Ellwood: On a point of order, Sir Alan. In the 6 per cent. remainder in producing other drinks. Much previous clause that we debated, it was considered that of that employment is in rural communities, where clause stand part would be discussed as well as the other jobs on offer are limited. It helps to sustain them, detail of the amendments. Will you advise us on whether as my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree the same rule applies to this clause? (Mr. Newmark) and others have noted. People involved in beer production in England and Wales are 50 per The Chairman: The ruling that I have made is in cent. more likely to live in a rural community than the connection with the terms of the amendment that we national average for those in employment overall. are discussing, which is about the impact of the increases The breweries are doing no better. I am in constant in alcohol liquor duty on various matters. Those are the correspondence about duty levels with Fuller, Smith terms of the amendment and those are the guidelines and Turner, which is located just outside my constituency that we must follow for debate on this amendment. If and makes the excellent London Pride beer. I mentioned other matters arise later on, I can deal with them then. that I was in Wiltshire with some colleagues a few weeks As far as this amendment is concerned, I hope that the ago, and we went to the Wadworth brewery in Devizes hon. Member for Hammersmith and Fulham (Mr. Hands) to see at first hand how one of Britain’s medium-sized will observe what I am saying. firms was faring under the big increases in duty. It is surviving, partly thanks to the quality of products such Mr. Hands: I shall certainly try my best, Sir Alan— as 6X and some of the lighter brews. [Interruption.] I shall do more than my best. Mr. Ellwood: My hon. Friend is making a powerful Mr. Redwood: Although I can understand my hon. argument about the level of duty. The duty hits the Friend’s reluctance to vote for the amendment, because breweries, which were told that it would be only temporary it will not address the issues that we want to address—the and that it would act as an offset to the VAT cut—which 805 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 806

[Mr. Ellwood] society. I also commend some of the breweries for keeping a close eye on their pubs and making sure that was also supposed to be temporary. However, the livelihoods are protected. Government have not said that because VAT is about to head back up, alcohol duty will head down again. Mr. Hayes: Like my hon. Friend, I make a strong case for rural public houses—indeed, just a week ago, I was in The Bell Inn in Weston Hills in my constituency Mr. Hands: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point, attending a “save our pubs” campaign meeting, which which highlights how much duty has risen in the past illustrated to me the communal effect of pubs. Have the 14 months and the appalling effect that that is having on Government conducted a study—there are certainly no our breweries and pubs across the country. background notes—of the wider effect of the trade and Since 1997, under Labour, the following big breweries its impact on employment and social value in our rural have closed down part of their operations in certain areas? If not, why not? towns—Brakspear, Ruddles, Morrells, Whitbread and Young’s. Other names have disappeared entirely from The Chairman: Order. I hope that the hon. Member the scene. for Hammersmith and Fulham (Mr. Hands) will content How will the industry survive the recession? I do not himself with the satisfaction of knowing his hon. Friend’s have statistics for previous recessions, but I recall reading experience of visiting the pub. The debate on this or hearing that the pub trade suffered a great deal but amendment is not the appropriate place to have a wider was still more recession-proof than some sectors. That debate on the licensed trade, yet that seems to be what might well no longer be the case: an interesting survey we are moving towards. I think that we should move by YouGov showed the entertainment that households back from it. expected to cut down on as the recession bit into their Mr. Hands: I thank you for that guidance, Sir Alan. budgets. The least affected things were TV subscriptions, It is worth remembering that the VAT cut—the gym memberships and the hiring of DVDs, but two of Government’s much vaunted scheme to inject a bit of the three biggest losers were going to pubs and eating life into the economy—which was linked to the big rises out. in duty in the pre-Budget report, provided almost no The Oxford Economics study published in December benefit to pubs and breweries, because the VAT cut was 2008 examined the direct impact of the Budget and netted against all the duty increases. It also caused big pre-Budget report measures on the pub sector in 2008-09. problems elsewhere, costing businesses a huge amount It also estimated the measures’ impact over the next five when making the necessary changes to prices. Industry years, with the escalator in place. The study said that the sources estimate that the changes in autumn—both the cumulative loss thanks to the duty escalator in sales and VAT cut and the duty changes in the PBR—cost every economic activity would amount to 16.7 million barrels pub or bar an average of £570, which does not take into of beer, or 4.8 billion pints. It also said that more than account any management or staff time involved. The 59,000 jobs would be lost in the beer supply chain, and industry believes that the cost will be the same, or that overall tax revenue, including duty, VAT and similar, when VAT goes back up again, but this time, it employment taxes, would fall by some £79 million. appears that it will not be offset by a reduction in beer, Beer is part of Britain, and it is most popular among wine and spirits duties. lower and middle income groups. Interestingly, people The wine trade has also been suffering, falling for the with manual or routine jobs drink less overall, but they first time in many decades. There was a very small fall drink 50 per cent. more beer than the managerial classes, during the last recession, but the figures are nothing like and the figure is even higher for cider. The impact of the the present ones. Although it is not alone, it is Britain’s big duty rises has been felt in urban constituencies, but beer and pub sector that is under pressure, and many not as much as in the rural or suburban communities outlets will not survive the downturn. where pubs are more integral. That struck me most clearly a fortnight ago in the village of All Cannings Mr. Goodwill: My hon. Friend describes the impact outside Devizes. The King’s Arms is the village’s main of the duty changes on pubs, but does he agree that they amenity and it is in good health, but many other pubs will also have a big impact on the traditional working are not. We need to be aware of that. men’s clubs in Yorkshire and the north of England? If the Government are not prepared to fight for the rights of those who use those clubs, the Conservative party John Howell: My hon. Friend mentioned the Brakspear certainly will. brewery, but he may not be aware that the company has decided to freeze prices to keep tenants in business Mr. Hands: I certainly agree with my hon. Friend, but through the year—something that not many companies I fear that if I comment on that, I shall stray away from can do. The pub in the village of Sydenham in my the purpose of the amendment. Alcohol duties are only constituency was going to close, but three public spirited one part of the picture, but they are an important part. inhabitants of the village have used their own money to On the Government’s approach and specific points buy it. Does he agree that pubs like that are the ones arising from the Budget and the duty changes, so poorly most at risk, because they are very vulnerable to any thought through has been the Government’s response changes that come along? to the industry’s difficulties that, for the first time, the five UK alcoholic drinks trade associations made a Mr. Hands: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, joint submission on this year’s Budget on duty levels. and I add my congratulations to his constituents in Their letter talked about Sydenham on being so public spirited and on realising “spiralling redundancies and short-time working across the alcohol the important role that village pubs can play in our sector and the unprecedented number of pub closures.” 807 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 808

Their letter combined two main requests: first, to freeze had got their sums wrong. The Scotch Whisky Association, alcohol duties and, secondly, to withdraw the proposal in particular, showed that the rise would have added 47p for the alcohol duty escalator. to a £20 bottle of whisky. The muddle on wine duties I would like the Exchequer Secretary, when she responds, that occurred at the same time was never resolved. The to reflect on whether alcohol duties are close to reaching, increase in duty was supposed to offset the decline in or even outstripping, the revenue maximisation point. VAT. For wine, that was true only of bottles priced at Given the decline in alcohol consumption in this country £6.07 or more, and 92 per cent. of bottles sold in the since 2004, there is some evidence, albeit perhaps not retail trade are priced at less than £6. That meant that conclusive, that that point has been reached. The hon. under the PBR, four out of five shoppers ended up Lady may well say that she is not in a position to give paying more for their wine as a result of the duty answers to theoretical questions, but I remind her that changes and VAT changes combined. The position was in the debate on last year’s Finance Bill she stated a not at all neutral for wine buyers. quite definitive view that tobacco duties had reached The Government claimed that when they introduced the tax maximisation point, saying: the alcohol duty escalator, it would bring certainty “duty rates are close to revenue maximisation, which is why there about future duty rises. After the PBR blunder, this has been no greater increase than revalorisation in the Budget.”– year’s Budget has actually added to that uncertainty. –[Official Report, Finance Public Bill Committee, 15 May 2008; c. 221.] Traditionally, the indexation element of any duty rise was linked to the retail prices index that prevailed in the Will she tonight offer a view on whether alcohol duties September before the Budget. This year’s increase applies have reached that point? the RPI forecast for the September following the Budget. I am told that the Treasury model appears to show Clearly, that dampens the rise in duty in this instance, that the tax maximisation point has been reached or is but it would be helpful to know whether the Government close to being reached, but I am also informed that see that as a permanent change in their methodology; if many in the industry, at least, doubt the robustness of it is not, the promised certainty on those duties has been the Treasury modelling. eroded yet further. As their joint submission showed, producers have felt for some time that the Government are refusing to The uncertainty reached in the industry in the past listen to their concerns and failing to recognise the year beggars belief; there have been hefty duty increases issues they face. That was most apparent in the pre-Budget in two Budgets and in the intervening PBR, as well as report. Now, of course, Ministers claim that the increases the introduction of an escalator and a change in the in duty were offset by the cut in VAT. I will examine that RPI date used for its calculation. That totally throws claim in a moment, although hon. Members who remember out the whole certainty argument, which was introduced the backtracking on whisky will already be sceptical. a year ago along with the escalator. The uncertainty wreaks havoc with pricing, contracts and overhead costs, 12 midnight not to mention the administrative costs of implementing The Government’s claim overlooks a key distinction: the price changes such as those due on new year’s eve. If producers pay duty, whereas the retailers pay VAT. I duty is not put back down when VAT returns to 17.5 per have met wine producers and importers who, safe—or cent., the industry will take another hit. If the escalator so they thought—in the knowledge that the Government is 2 per cent. per annum, why is the industry in practice had introduced a duty escalator to enable long-term facing a total rise of 4.5 per cent. in this financial year? decision making, had entered into contracts to supply That is a critical question that Ministers must answer wine to supermarkets and others at a set price. Producers’ tonight. At the moment, Labour’s escalator appears to and importers’ margins are so tight that every bottle contain no certainty whatsoever. they produced after the PBR was produced at a loss We need to look at what the purpose of alcohol tax is until the contracts expired months later, as they had not in the first place. After the pre-Budget report, the factored in the additional rise in duty in the PBR. As Exchequer Secretary said in a debate in Committee in they were the ones who paid duty, they suffered. Meanwhile, January, when these duties were last raised, that taxation they watched the retailers whom they were supplying was a very blunt instrument with which to deal with a charge less VAT, but not always a lower price. minority of drinkers and that in her view tax did not The Minister will understand that the claim that the have a major role to play.She meant to attack Conservative duty increase for producers was offset is held in utter policy, but we believe that the blanket duty increases contempt in the industry. We have seen time and again have far less impact on health than targeted measures that the Government’s failure to consult, and their rush directed at problem drinks and problem drinkers. Her to implement duty changes, produced problems they comments were also rather at odds with those of her did not foresee. To promise the industry a three-year colleagues in the Department of Health on duty. The horizon of stability, and then provide less than a week’s Minister of State, Department of Health, the right hon. notice of a major change only six months later, perhaps Member for Bristol, South (Dawn Primarolo) told the marks a new low in the Government’s miserable record. public health conference held by the British Medical The VAT cut offset was hardly that, anyway. The Association last year that PBR suggested that the changes would leave the total “our estimates suggest that higher taxes, if they do feed through VAT and duty on products “broadly unchanged”. I to price, will mainly affect the 7 per cent. of the population who suppose that that depends on how broadly one defines drink one third of all alcohol consumed in Great Britain. In the word “broadly”, but the whisky increases proved England alone, the total number of lives saved up to end of too broad for even Labour’s tradition of semantic hair- March 2013 will be 3,250 by the Department’s own calculations.” splitting to spin away. The proposed rise of 8 per cent. My hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) in duty on spirits in the PBR had to be cut to 4 per cent. wanted to know if there were any Government studies. when the Government were forced to admit that they There was a recent study—the community pub inquiry, 809 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 810 by the all-party parliamentary beer group—and the I have set out at some length the situation that we Government’s response to it was quite fascinating: face. There are difficult problems, but there are also “It is important that any Government interventions reduce ways forward. harm without impacting unduly on the majority of responsible drinkers”. Mr. Goodwill: Although having differential rates of However, that is exactly what they have done. Their duty for cask beer and for beer in bottles and cans may duty rises have clobbered the majority of responsible be against European Union legislation under articles drinkers. Across-the-board rises hit responsible drinkers, relating to the single market, surely articles relating to but fail specifically to target problem drinkers or drinking the environment could be used to encourage the use of with antisocial consequences. returnable containers such as casks, rather than bottles and cans, which are generally disposed of in another What other solutions have been proposed? A major way. controversy is the ability of the supermarkets and the off-trade more generally to absorb the rises in duty The Chairman: Order. I suggest that the hon. Member compared with the on-trade. France has looked at a for Hammersmith and Fulham (Mr. Hands) does not scheme to reduce VAT on served food, versus that paid develop that point. in supermarkets, and has suggested doing the same for the duty paid on served drinks. I would be grateful for a Mr. Hands: I thank you for your guidance, Sir Alan. word from the Exchequer Secretary as to whether the However, it is always good to see colleagues using UK has been looking at such schemes. previous experience. My hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Goodwill) was a Member Mr. Todd: Would not a differential between cask beer of the European Parliament for some time; the Government and beer served in bottles and cans have a similar effect? could learn a little more from those who know more about EU directives, to try to find a way through the Mr. Hands: The hon. Gentleman makes an important maze. point. My understanding—I think we will discuss EU We believe that the structure of taxation needs to be regulation in due course—is that that would not be changed. That will not solve every problem, but taxing possible under the EU directives. However, I am not problem drinks and giving a price advantage to low-strength entirely sure, and I would be grateful for a word from alternatives will stop the penalising of responsible drinkers. the Exchequer Secretary, who may be able to give us a It will also provide a nudge in the right direction. more definitive account. [Interruption.] I am not sure whether the deputy Chief Whip wants to intervene; he is certainly talking from a The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Angela sedentary position. Would he like to intervene? Eagle): I may as well deal with that point now. Our Mr. Jeremy Browne rose— advice is that the cask differential is unlawful as the EU directives are currently written, but there is an attempt Mr. Hands: I shall take an intervention from the hon. to see if we can change that. The hon. Gentleman will Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne). know, however, that that can sometimes take longer than we would all hope. Mr. Browne: If I remember correctly, during last year’s Finance Bill the Conservative party tabled an Mr. Hands: That clarification is helpful, but in my amendment relating to the taxation structure. Why was experience—and as a long-standing member of the the decision taken not to table such an amendment this European Scrutiny Committee, I do not know how year? many EU directives we receive every week—it is easy to look at those directives, and pick and choose a little bit Mr. Hands: The hon. Gentleman is right to raise that from them, but we have to study them and go through interesting question. We still have the policy that we had them in totality to try to find ways around them to do last year. However, the calculation this year would be what we want to do. That is what other European different. A revenue-neutral position looking at different countries have been doing. I would appreciate the Exchequer percentages of beer would not be the same this year Secretary’s explanation as to whether the UK has been because of the background changes in the overall beer looking at schemes to reduce, for example, the cost of pricing regime. Our policy is very much the same, but served drinks, which is what the French have done and we simply have not done the exact calculations this year is a possible way forward. that were done last year. The Government’s duty increases last year had the Rob Marris: Does the hon. Gentleman favour some opposite effect from what we are considering. Under kind of minimum pricing scheme for alcohol? A great those increases, problem and non-problem drinks alike deal of alcohol abuse comes from drinks such as extremely went up in price. Since the last Budget, tax on beer has cheap cider—cider that has never seen an apple—that is gone up by 8p a pint and tax on wine by 28p a bottle. It sold at off-licences and drunk by people who go on to is worth pointing out that almost all wine consumed in behave antisocially. Does he favour a minimum price for this country is imported, so Labour’s devaluation has alcohol as a way of addressing those issues? added a 30 to 35 per cent. premium on top of that. Meanwhile, duty on a bottle of spirits has risen by Mr. Hands: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that about 47p on average. intervention. In due course, I shall discuss in detail the We want the Government to consider and evaluate a Scottish National party amendment on minimum pricing smart alcohol taxation regime, focusing on the drinks and consider problem drinks such as the type of cider most closely linked to problem drinking, such as alcopops that he mentioned. and high-strength beers and ciders, and using the proceeds 811 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 812 to reduce duties on lower-strength alternatives elsewhere. Mr. Hands: The hon. Gentleman makes a probing We should look at what has happened in Australia and point. I am merely going on the figures used in the Germany, where such approaches have been used to German Government’s report. If he likes, I can print good effect. The Government should seriously consider him off a copy and we can discuss it, but I have not yet introducing such reforms here, instead of using health converted the figures into units that he might find concerns as a cover for a blanket tax rise for responsible acceptable. drinkers. The German experiment has been a great success, as There has been some controversy in this country has the Australian experiment on beer strength, and we about the German experiment on higher duty rates on should be looking at these options. Various observers alcopops, introduced on 1 July 2004. Like this country, have endorsed our approach to tackling problem drinks Germany had a real problem with alcopops among by increasing the tax rate and giving relief on drinks of teens. Those relatively high-strength drinks were particularly a lower alcoholic strength. prone to getting youths drunk quickly; the sweet flavours I want to mention a couple of problems with the SNP camouflaged the high and bitter alcohol content. Many amendment. The SNP is in favour of minimum pricing. have said that the tax increases that the Germans introduced A noteworthy feature of its scheme is that spirits would did not work, as youths simply switched to other forms be practically the only drinks not to face steep hikes in of alcohol. duty. In fact, its Justice Minister, Kenny MacAskill, The issue cropped up at some length in last year’s confirmed that last week while touring a whisky distillery— Finance Bill. In an attempt to separate fact from fiction, exclusively for fact-finding purposes, I am sure. He said: I decided to see for myself by talking to a number of “We are very clear that our plans for minimum pricing will not those involved in the changes in Germany; the Government’s affect this important industry.” Treasury team will recall that I maintain a regular If whisky prices do not fall, that can only mean that dialogue with a number of German politicians. I also beer, wine and cider prices will have to rise to compensate. studied the reports of the Bundeszentrale für gesundheitliche Aufklärung, the federal institute of health information, Mr. Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): In the present and the federal Government’s own report about the circumstances, whisky and other spirits are treated unfairly effects of the alcopop tax law on the consumption of compared with beers and wines because the duty per alcohol by youths aged 18 and about the market unit of alcohol is much higher. If duty is being imposed development of alcopops and similar drinks. I recommend for health reasons, it should be based on units of that the Minister look at that report, because she would alcohol, so duty on spirits should come down and duty learn a great deal from it. on beers and wines should go up. Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that spirits should be taxed more highly than beers and wines? 12.15 am The German tax increase on alcopops—we must Mr. Hands: The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting bear it in mind that alcopop consumption is generally point. In general, as I have said, we are in favour of falling, but that alcopops nevertheless remain a problem lower duty on lower-alcohol drinks. I do not want to get drink—was quite severe: a whole euro was put on top of into more specifics about spirits. the price of a 275 ml bottle. Labour Members’ criticisms of the changes during the debates on last year’s Finance Stewart Hosie: The hon. Gentleman is conflating two Bill were partly correct. There was a switch from alcopops different issues. The first is duty, and amendment 12 to mixed drinks based on beer and wine, but let us look calls for the Government to assess what duty level at the figures in terms of pure alcohol drunk. In the would be required to have fair pricing based on alcohol year following the alcopop tax rise, wine and beer-based content only. The second is minimum pricing, which is a drinks consumption by those aged 12 to 17 rose from retail issue designed to tackle binge drinking and antisocial 3.9 g per person per week to 5.3 g as a result. By behaviour. The two things are completely separate. We contrast, there was a staggering fall in consumption of are talking about alcohol duty, which is what the spirits-based drinks from 8.5 g per person per week to amendment is about. Minimum pricing is completely only 2.2 g. In other words, spirits-based consumption unrelated. quartered, while wine and beer-based consumption went up by only 35 per cent. In terms of pure alcohol Mr. Hands: I understand what the hon. Gentleman consumed, there was a net change from 12.4 g per week says, but it is still my understanding that if price and to just 7.5 g. Under the German tax change overall, duty are kept frozen on whisky, they have to be raised alcohol consumption by those aged 12 to 17—a very on other drinks. I appreciate that he has a different view. important part of the population whom we do not want In conclusion, the official Opposition are not opposed to have drinking in general—fell by some 40 per cent., to the kind of study outlined in the Liberal Democrat which is a huge success. or SNP amendments, but we are wary of a three-year duty freeze while we await the study. We will therefore Rob Marris: The hon. Gentleman has clearly done a abstain if amendment 10 is put to the vote. Secondly, we huge amount of research that underlines the point I believe that the pub and drinks industry is in some made earlier—we do not need the amendments. I am degree of trouble, thanks in part to various measures not much of a scientist, so can he explain why earlier in introduced by this Labour Government, duty being one his speech he was citing comparative figures about of them. Thirdly, we believe that alcohol price, and alcohol in pure litres, whereas he is now talking about therefore duty, can have an influence on drinking behaviour. alcohol in grams? I thought that grams were to do with It is clearly not the only influence, but duty and price weight, not volume. can play a role in combating some of the negative 813 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 814

[Mr. Hands] Angela Eagle: There is always Treasury modelling, some of it based on tax returns, which are confidential effects of our drinks culture without penalising the vast and cannot be shared—I am sure that the hon. Gentleman majority of responsible drinkers. We need a new approach knows that. to these matters, and we on the Conservative Benches The Oxford Economics model assumes that alcohol look forward to providing it as soon as the Prime consumers are significantly more price sensitive than Minister is ready to face the voters. the Treasury model suggests. It fails to account for the fact that increases in the price of one type of alcohol Angela Eagle: We have had a debate that has been a often lead to switching to another. It therefore suggests bit like shadow-boxing, on amendments 10 and 12, that if beer sales decrease, no other type of alcohol is which were tabled by the Liberal Democrats and the drunk, which is clearly not true. Scottish National party respectively. At least they had the courage to get their amendments on the Order Mr. Redwood: Will the Exchequer Secretary give way? Paper. We then had an extremely long peroration from the hon. Member for Hammersmith and Fulham Angela Eagle: I was about to answer the right hon. (Mr. Hands), who dealt with all the amendments at Gentleman’s questions, but if he must intervene, I shall great length. He thereby proved that amendment 10, give way. which is about doing research, is erroneous, because as my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, Mr. Redwood: Why does the Exchequer Secretary South-West (Rob Marris) pointed out, as a lot of the think that pub closures have increased so much in research already exists. The hon. Gentleman then said, recent months? after all that, that he would be abstaining. Angela Eagle: There are many reasons why particular pubs might close. Some businesses were possibly never Rob Marris: May I gently suggest to my hon. Friend viable and we are also in the middle of difficult trading that it is often better to abstain when it comes to conditions, as the right hon. Gentleman pointed out. alcohol? We cannot assume that alcohol excise duties have a direct relationship to the pub closures, as some have Angela Eagle: My own father took the pledge when argued. he was 15—[Interruption.] No, 15, not 50. I have not quite managed to live up to the high standards of his Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): Is it not fair to Methodist upbringing. Perhaps we all aspire, at least, to say that many pubs are in trouble because of pub moderation. companies charging high rents and because they are Amendment 10 would require the Government to tied to buying the beer through those companies? The produce a report on the impact of increases in alcohol 2p can make a difference, but the real reason is the duty on licensed premises and on employment in the prices that the pub companies charge. alcohol sector. The Government do not support the amendment. One reason, which has been demonstrated Angela Eagle: My hon. Friend is a distinguished at great length tonight, is that there is plenty of such member of the Select Committee on Business and information already available. As with all tax decisions, Enterprise, and a report on the subject is due soon. I the Government will monitor the impact of alcohol look forward to reading it. Clearly, the tie is important duty changes, including on the industry. and it has been brought to our attention in much of the evidence that we have taken. Many hon. Members have acknowledged that The measures that we have introduced to support all competitiveness and employment levels in any industry businesses also support the British pub. They include depend on a range of factors. It would therefore be very enabling pubs to spread payment of this year’s inflation difficult to identify the specific impact of alcohol duty uprating to business rates over three years. The business rises alone, against other factors such as a change in the payment support service has already allowed 116,000 culture of pubs and their customers and increased businesses to defer more than £2 billion of tax, and that competition for leisure time. has benefited many pubs. There is improved access to The Government value the contribution that pubs finance for small businesses through the enterprise finance make to employment and local communities, although guarantee, which is now available for the first time to EU tax legislation means that it is not possible to tied pubs. There is also support through low cost loans provide tax reliefs targeted specifically at pubs, such as and advice on energy efficiency for small businesses, taxing beer sold in supermarkets differently from that including many pubs, in order to make savings on their sold in pubs. energy bills. There was much talk of the balance between the on Mr. Hayes: Does the Exchequer Secretary believe and the off trade in the debate. Many hon. Members that it is impossible to produce the sort of report that know that we cannot charge a different rate of excise the amendment recommends because of the scope of duty for the same product if it is sold in a different the research? Leaving aside the argument about whether context. We cannot discriminate by setting a lower duty it is possible to distil the research and make it intelligible for pubs than for supermarkets. When alcohol excise to Members, there must be Treasury modelling about rates increase, pubs often put up their prices by 5p. The the impact of changes in duty, specifically on employment duty increases are 1p extra on beer this time round, yet and the other matters that the amendment covers. Will the prices in many places are going up by 5p. That she make that modelling available to hon. Members by exacerbates the difference between the on and the off placing it in the Library? price of beer and causes difficulty. 815 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 816

I want to spend a short time dealing with the questions The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury that the right hon. Member for Wokingham(Mr. Redwood) (Mr. Nicholas Brown) claimed to move the closure (Standing asked. He did not seem to know that the national Order No. 36). average cost of a pint is £2.51. One can get a pint for £3.20 at the “Westminster Arms” over the road, but the Mr. Reid: On a point of order, Sir Michael. right hon. Gentleman could have bought a pint for 99p at “Gig House” in his constituency from January because The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. I now have to Wetherspoon had a special price for beer. decide whether to accept a closure motion. The Minister The right hon. Gentleman asked why some of the is only 10 minutes into her response, so perhaps it changes in excise duty were higher than the 2 per cent. would not be reasonable to accept a closure motion at announced in the Budget. That is because the Finance this juncture. Bill, as I suspect he knows only too well, includes the legislation that will put into effect the increases that Angela Eagle: I had actually finished my remarks on were introduced in the pre-Budget report, as well those the amendment, Sir Michael. in the Budget. Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put. 12.30 am The House divided: Ayes 275, Noes 56. We have had a good debate. I want now to deal with Division No. 120] [12.33 am the points raised by the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Stewart Hosie) in respect of his amendment 12. AYES Amendment 12 seeks to require the Government, before Abbott, Ms Diane Coaker, Mr. Vernon the 2009 pre-Budget report, to publish anticipated yields Ainger, Nick Coffey, Ann from alcohol duty and the estimated levels of duty, Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Cohen, Harry based on alcohol content, that would need to be levied Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Connarty, Michael to maintain that yield. Estimates from the pre-Budget Anderson, Mr. David Cooper, Rosie report are available. In 2008-09, spirit duty is estimated Anderson, Janet Cooper, rh Yvette to raise £2.4 billion, wine £2.7 billion and beer and cider Armstrong, rh Hilary Corbyn, Jeremy combined £3.4 billion. Many spirit products produced Austin, Mr. Ian Cousins, Jim in the UK are exported and are therefore not subject to Austin, John Crausby, Mr. David UK excise duty. For example, more than 90 per cent. of Bailey, Mr. Adrian Creagh, Mary Scotch whisky is exported, and the level of Scotch Baird, Vera Cryer, Mrs. Ann Balls, rh Ed Cummings, John whisky exports grew by 8 per cent. in 2008. Banks, Gordon Cunningham, Mr. Jim Barlow, Ms Celia Cunningham, Tony Mr. Alan Reid rose— Barron, rh Mr. Kevin David, Mr. Wayne Battle, rh John Davidson, Mr. Ian Angela Eagle: I have been here for two and a half Bayley, Hugh Davies, Mr. Dai hours, and the hon. Gentleman has not been here for Beckett, rh Margaret Davies, Mr. Quentin the debate. [HON.MEMBERS: “Give way!”] If the hon. Begg, Miss Anne Dean, Mrs. Janet Gentleman is desperate, I shall be only too happy to Benn, rh Hilary Devine, Mr. Jim give way. Benton, Mr. Joe Dismore, Mr. Andrew Berry, Roger Dobbin, Jim Mr. Reid: I am grateful to the Exchequer Secretary. Betts, Mr. Clive Dobson, rh Frank She mentioned exports, but the unfairness of the British Blackman, Liz Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. duty system, whereby spirits are taxed at a higher rate Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Doran, Mr. Frank Blears, rh Hazel Dowd, Jim per unit of alcohol than wines are, means that when we Blizzard, Mr. Bob Drew, Mr. David complain about other countries unfairly discriminating Borrow, Mr. David S. Durkan, Mark against whisky in favour of their local brew, they can Bradshaw, Mr. Ben Eagle, Angela point to our unfair system. Why, therefore, can we not Brennan, Kevin Eagle, Maria continue with the system that was in place when the Brown, Lyn Efford, Clive Prime Minister was Chancellor, under which spirits Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Ellman, Mrs. Louise duty was frozen? Brown, Mr. Russell Engel, Natascha Bryant, Chris Ennis, Jeff Angela Eagle: We thought that, for fairness, it was Buck, Ms Karen Farrelly, Paul right to have 2 per cent. across the board this time Burden, Richard Fisher, Mark round, although I note that 90 per cent. of Scotch Burgon, Colin Fitzpatrick, Jim whisky is exported and that the level of Scotch whisky Cairns, David Flello, Mr. Robert exports grew by 8 per cent. last year. Campbell, Mr. Alan Flint, rh Caroline Caton, Mr. Martin Flynn, Paul European rules apply duty in direct proportion to Cawsey, Mr. Ian Follett, Barbara alcohol content for beer and spirits, but the rules do not Challen, Colin Foster, Mr. Michael allow the same application to wine and cider, which Chapman, Ben (Worcester) accounts for some of the disparities that the right hon. Clapham, Mr. Michael Foster, Michael Jabez Member for Wokingham talked about. Given those Clark, Paul (Hastings and Rye) explanations, I ask hon. Members not to press either Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Francis, Dr. Hywel amendment. Clarke,rhMr.Tom Gapes, Mike Clelland, Mr. David Gardiner, Barry Mr. Reid: I want to support amendments 10 and 12. Clwyd, rh Ann George, rh Mr. Bruce 817 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 818

Gilroy, Linda McDonagh, Siobhain Straw, rh Mr. Jack Waltho, Lynda Goggins, Paul McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Stringer, Graham Ward, Claire Goodman, Helen McFall, rh John Stuart, Ms Gisela Watts, Mr. Dave Griffith, Nia McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Stunell, Andrew Whitehead, Dr. Alan Griffiths, Nigel McIsaac, Shona Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Williams, rh Mr. Alan Gwynne, Andrew McKechin, Ann Tami, Mark Williams, Mrs. Betty Hain, rh Mr. Peter McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Taylor, Ms Dari Wilson, Phil Hall, Mr. Mike Merron, Gillian Taylor, David Winnick, Mr. David Hall, Patrick Michael, rh Alun Thomas, Mr. Gareth Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Hamilton, Mr. David Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Thornberry, Emily Wood, Mike Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Miliband, rh Edward Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Hanson, rh Mr. David Miller, Andrew Tipping, Paddy Woolas, Mr. Phil Harris, Mr. Tom Mitchell, Mr. Austin Todd, Mr. Mark Wright, Mr. Anthony Havard, Mr. Dai Moffat, Anne Touhig, rh Mr. Don Wright, David Healey, rh John Moffatt, Laura Turner, Dr. Desmond Wright, Mr. Iain Hendrick, Mr. Mark Mole, Chris Turner, Mr. Neil Wyatt, Derek Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Morden, Jessica Twigg, Derek Hesford, Stephen Morgan, Julie Ussher, Kitty Tellers for the Ayes: Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Vis, Dr. Rudi Helen Jones and Heyes, David Mullin, Mr. Chris Walley, Joan Ms Dawn Butler Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Munn, Meg Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Murphy, Mr. Denis NOES Hopkins, Kelvin Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Howarth, rh Mr. George Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Afriyie, Adam Kawczynski, Daniel Howells, rh Dr. Kim Naysmith, Dr. Doug Amess, Mr. David Lamb, Norman Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Norris, Dan Barrett, John Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Hughes, rh Beverley O’Brien, Mr. Mike Binley, Mr. Brian MacNeil, Mr. Angus Humble, Mrs. Joan O’Hara, Mr. Edward Bone, Mr. Peter Mason, John Hutton, rh Mr. John Olner, Mr. Bill Brady, Mr. Graham Moore, Mr. Michael Iddon, Dr. Brian Osborne, Sandra Browne, Mr. Jeremy Mulholland, Greg Illsley, Mr. Eric Owen, Albert Bruce, rh Malcolm Newmark, Mr. Brooks Irranca-Davies, Huw Palmer, Dr. Nick Burt, Lorely Öpik, Lembit James, Mrs. Siân C. Pearson, Ian Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Redwood, rh Mr. John Jenkins, Mr. Brian Plaskitt, Mr. James Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Robathan, Mr. Andrew Johnson, rh Alan Pope, Mr. Greg Davies, Philip Robertson, Angus Johnson, Ms Diana R. Prentice, Mr. Gordon Dodds, Mr. Nigel Sanders, Mr. Adrian Jones, Lynne Primarolo, rh Dawn Duddridge, James Simpson, David Jowell, rh Tessa Prosser, Gwyn Evans, Mr. Nigel Smith, Sir Robert Joyce, Mr. Eric Purchase, Mr. Ken Foster, Mr. Don Spink, Bob Keeble, Ms Sally Purnell, rh James George, Andrew Stanley, rh Sir John Keeley, Barbara Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Goldsworthy, Julia Stunell, Andrew Keen, Alan Reed, Mr. Andy Goodwill, Mr. Robert Swinson, Jo Keen, Ann Reed, Mr. Jamie Hancock, Mr. Mike Weir, Mr. Mike Kelly, rh Ruth Riordan, Mrs. Linda Hands, Mr. Greg Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Kemp, Mr. Fraser Robertson, John Harris, Dr. Evan Williams, Hywel Khan, Mr. Sadiq Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Hayes, Mr. John Williams, Mr. Roger Hemming, John Kidney, Mr. David Rooney, Mr. Terry Williams, Stephen Hoban, Mr. Mark Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Roy, Mr. Frank Wishart, Pete Horwood, Martin Knight, rh Jim Roy, Lindsay Younger-Ross, Richard Kumar, Dr. Ashok Ruane, Chris Hosie, Stewart Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Ruddock, Joan Howarth, Mr. Gerald Tellers for the Noes: Lammy, rh Mr. David Russell, Christine Howell, John Mr. Alan Reid and Laxton, Mr. Bob Ryan, rh Joan Hunter, Mark Dan Rogerson Lazarowicz, Mark Seabeck, Alison Lepper, David Sharma, Mr. Virendra Question accordingly agreed to. Levitt, Tom Sheridan, Jim Lewis, Mr. Ivan Simon, Mr. Siôn Question put accordingly, That the amendment be Linton, Martin Simpson, Alan made. Lloyd, Tony Singh, Mr. Marsha Amendment 10 negatived. Love, Mr. Andrew Skinner, Mr. Dennis Lucas, Ian Slaughter, Mr. Andy Amendment proposed: 12, in clause 11, page 5, line 37, at Mackinlay, Andrew Smith, rh Mr. Andrew end insert— Malik, Mr. Shahid Smith, Ms Angela C. ‘(8) The Treasury will, prior to the 2009 Pre-budget Mallaber, Judy (Sheffield, Hillsborough) statement— Mann, John Smith, Geraldine Marris, Rob Snelgrove, Anne (a) publish an assessment of the level of revenue yield Marsden, Mr. Gordon Soulsby, Sir Peter anticipated from alcohol liquor duty based on it Martlew, Mr. Eric Southworth, Helen being levied on the rates of duty in this section, and McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Spellar, rh Mr. John (b) publish an assessment of the level of alcohol liquor McCabe, Steve Starkey, Dr. Phyllis duty required to be levied on each type of drink on an McCarthy, Kerry Stewart, Ian equitable basis based on the alcohol content to generate McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Stoate, Dr. Howard the same level of revenue yield.’.—(Stewart Hosie.) 819 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 820

The Committee divided: Ayes 41, Noes 272. Fitzpatrick, Jim Mackinlay, Andrew Division No. 121] [12.46 am Flello, Mr. Robert Malik, Mr. Shahid Flint, rh Caroline Mallaber, Judy Flynn, Paul Mann, John AYES Follett, Barbara Marris, Rob Barrett, John MacNeil, Mr. Angus Foster, Mr. Michael Marsden, Mr. Gordon Binley, Mr. Brian Moore, Mr. Michael (Worcester) Martlew, Mr. Eric Brady, Mr. Graham Mulholland, Greg Foster, Michael Jabez McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Browne, Mr. Jeremy Öpik, Lembit (Hastings and Rye) McCabe, Steve Bruce, rh Malcolm Reid, Mr. Alan Francis, Dr. Hywel McCarthy, Kerry Burt, Lorely Robertson, Angus Gapes, Mike McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Rogerson, Dan Gardiner, Barry McDonagh, Siobhain Davies, Mr. Dai Russell, Bob George, rh Mr. Bruce McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Davies, Philip Sanders, Mr. Adrian Gilroy, Linda McFall, rh John Evans, Mr. Nigel Smith, Sir Robert Goggins, Paul McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Foster, Mr. Don Spink, Bob Goodman, Helen McIsaac, Shona George, Andrew Stunell, Andrew Griffith, Nia McKechin, Ann Goldsworthy, Julia Swinson, Jo Griffiths, Nigel McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Hancock, Mr. Mike Weir, Mr. Mike Gwynne, Andrew Merron, Gillian Harris, Dr. Evan Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Hain, rh Mr. Peter Michael, rh Alun Hemming, John Williams, Mr. Roger Hall, Mr. Mike Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Horwood, Martin Williams, Stephen Hall, Patrick Miliband, rh Edward Hosie, Stewart Wishart, Pete Hamilton, Mr. David Miller, Andrew Hughes, Simon Younger-Ross, Richard Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Mitchell, Mr. Austin Hunter, Mark Tellers for the Ayes: Hanson, rh Mr. David Moffat, Anne Jones, Lynne John Mason and Harris, Mr. Tom Moffatt, Laura Lamb, Norman Hywel Williams Healey, rh John Mole, Chris Hendrick, Mr. Mark Morden, Jessica Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Morgan, Julie NOES Hesford, Stephen Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Abbott, Ms Diane Chapman, Ben Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Mullin, Mr. Chris Ainger, Nick Clapham, Mr. Michael Heyes, David Munn, Meg Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Clark, Paul Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Murphy, Mr. Denis Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Anderson, Mr. David Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hopkins, Kelvin Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Anderson, Janet Clelland, Mr. David Howarth, rh Mr. George Naysmith, Dr. Doug Armstrong, rh Hilary Clwyd, rh Ann Howells, rh Dr. Kim Norris, Dan Austin, Mr. Ian Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay O’Brien, Mr. Mike Austin, John Coffey, Ann Hughes, rh Beverley O’Hara, Mr. Edward Bailey, Mr. Adrian Cohen, Harry Humble, Mrs. Joan Olner, Mr. Bill Baird, Vera Connarty, Michael Hutton, rh Mr. John Osborne, Sandra Balls, rh Ed Cooper, Rosie Iddon, Dr. Brian Owen, Albert Banks, Gordon Cooper, rh Yvette Illsley, Mr. Eric Palmer, Dr. Nick Barlow, Ms Celia Corbyn, Jeremy Irranca-Davies, Huw Pearson, Ian Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Cousins, Jim James, Mrs. Siân C. Plaskitt, Mr. James Battle, rh John Crausby, Mr. David Jenkins, Mr. Brian Pope, Mr. Greg Bayley, Hugh Creagh, Mary Johnson, rh Alan Prentice, Mr. Gordon Beckett, rh Margaret Cryer, Mrs. Ann Johnson, Ms Diana R. Primarolo, rh Dawn Begg, Miss Anne Cummings, John Jones, Lynne Prosser, Gwyn Benn, rh Hilary Cunningham, Mr. Jim Joyce, Mr. Eric Purchase, Mr. Ken Benton, Mr. Joe Cunningham, Tony Keeble, Ms Sally Purnell, rh James Berry, Roger David, Mr. Wayne Keeley, Barbara Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Betts, Mr. Clive Davidson, Mr. Ian Keen, Alan Reed, Mr. Andy Blackman, Liz Davies, Mr. Quentin Keen, Ann Reed, Mr. Jamie Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Devine, Mr. Jim Kelly, rh Ruth Riordan, Mrs. Linda Blears, rh Hazel Dismore, Mr. Andrew Kemp, Mr. Fraser Robertson, John Blizzard, Mr. Bob Dobbin, Jim Khan, Mr. Sadiq Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Borrow, Mr. David S. Dobson, rh Frank Kidney, Mr. David Rooney, Mr. Terry Bradshaw, Mr. Ben Dodds, Mr. Nigel Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Roy, Mr. Frank Brennan, Kevin Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Knight, rh Jim Roy, Lindsay Brown, Lyn Doran, Mr. Frank Kumar, Dr. Ashok Ruane, Chris Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Dowd, Jim Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Ruddock, Joan Brown, Mr. Russell Drew, Mr. David Lammy, rh Mr. David Russell, Christine Bryant, Chris Durkan, Mark Laxton, Mr. Bob Ryan, rh Joan Buck, Ms Karen Eagle, Angela Lazarowicz, Mark Seabeck, Alison Burden, Richard Eagle, Maria Lepper, David Sharma, Mr. Virendra Burgon, Colin Efford, Clive Levitt, Tom Sheridan, Jim Cairns, David Ellman, Mrs. Louise Lewis, Mr. Ivan Simon, Mr. Siôn Campbell, Mr. Alan Engel, Natascha Linton, Martin Simpson, Alan Caton, Mr. Martin Ennis, Jeff Lloyd, Tony Simpson, David Cawsey, Mr. Ian Farrelly, Paul Love, Mr. Andrew Singh, Mr. Marsha Challen, Colin Fisher, Mark Lucas, Ian Skinner, Mr. Dennis 821 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 822

Slaughter, Mr. Andy Turner, Dr. Desmond remote communities where alternative employment can Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Turner, Mr. Neil often be difficult to find. The increase in alcohol duties Smith, Ms Angela C. Twigg, Derek in the Budget puts those jobs at risk, and the Government (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Ussher, Kitty should not increase alcohol duty yet again, after two Smith, Geraldine Vis, Dr. Rudi increases over the rate of inflation in the last 12 months. Snelgrove, Anne Walley, Joan It is high time that these inflation-plus duty increases Soulsby, Sir Peter Waltho, Lynda Southworth, Helen Ward, Claire were stopped. Spellar, rh Mr. John Watts, Mr. Dave Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Whitehead, Dr. Alan Colin Challen (Morley and Rothwell) (Lab): I agree Stewart, Ian Williams, rh Mr. Alan with the hon. Gentleman’s general intent, but the increase Stoate, Dr. Howard Williams, Mrs. Betty in duty on beer imposed in the Budget is 1p. In my local, Straw, rh Mr. Jack Wilson, Phil which I attend regularly—I do not know whether the Stringer, Graham Winnick, Mr. David hon. Gentleman attends his—the price of a pint has Stuart, Ms Gisela Winterton, rh Ms Rosie gone up by 10p. Who does the hon. Gentleman blame Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Wood, Mike for the severe problems that drinkers face in their locals? Tami, Mark Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun They always increase prices at the time of the Budget, Taylor, Ms Dari Woolas, Mr. Phil but they do not explain to customers why the price has Taylor, David Wright, Mr. Anthony gone up far more than the Chancellor’s imposition. Thomas, Mr. Gareth Wright, David Thornberry, Emily Wright, Mr. Iain Wyatt, Derek Mr. Reid: The hon. Gentleman asks about beer, but I Timms, rh Mr. Stephen was concentrating on whisky. He has made his point so Tipping, Paddy Tellers for the Noes: I will continue my speech. Putting the duty up without a Todd, Mr. Mark Helen Jones and proper assessment of the impact on demand is risky. It Touhig, rh Mr. Don Ms Dawn Butler could cost the Treasury money. Constant increases are unacceptable without any assessment of the impact on Question accordingly negatived. demand or on—[Interruption.] Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill. The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. There is a loud buzz of conversation in the Chamber that is making it Mr. Hands: As we had started the debate on the difficult for me to hear what is being said. Perhaps those interesting but fundamentally flawed Liberal Democrat Members who do not want to take part in the proceedings amendment—the Conservatives also felt unable to support might leave or, at the very least, keep quiet, so that those the interesting amendment tabled by the Scottish National who do want to take part can hear what is going on. party—it was unfortunate that the closure motion prevented five or six other Back Benchers from participating in it. Mr. Reid: Thank you, Sir Michael.

The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): My hon. Friend is (Sir Michael Lord): Order. First, the last thing that we making an important point. In my area and other parts must do in a clause stand part debate is rerun amendments of north-east Scotland, new distilleries are proposed, that have already been debated. Secondly, whether or but they may be prevented from going ahead by this not a closure motion is accepted is entirely a matter for increase. The issue is not only losses to the Exchequer, the Chair, and I suggest that the hon. Gentleman does but a threat to jobs at a time when unemployment is not stray into that region. reaching record levels. This is a serious issue and if the Government really cared about jobs and employment, Mr. Hands: You are, of course, quite right, Sir Michael. they would not be destroying jobs in one of our most I shall thus discuss the clause itself, on which I do not important industries. propose to speak for as long as I did on the amendments. After all, it is well past closing time—or at least the Mr. Reid: I wholeheartedly agree with my right hon. old-style 11 pm closing time. However, we must at least Friend, who makes an important point. The constant briefly examine the devastating impact of the Government’s increases in duty—and the Government have promised approach to pubs, breweries and other industries across another above-inflation increase in next year’s Budget—will the UK. I know that that is felt keenly by Members discourage people from investing in the industry and in from across this House in terms of the pubs, clubs and new distilleries. jobs in their constituencies. In my constituency, old distilleries have been reopened As I said, duty levels are not the only answer. We in recent years—when the present Prime Minister was propose changes to the duty regime as part of a package Chancellor of the Exchequer and froze spirits duty. of wider measures aimed at tackling binge and under-age Under the policy of the present Chancellor, I do not drinking, which we need to look at. The Committee expect to see any more new distilleries opening in the needs to register its opposition to the Government’s future. approach of penalising all drinkers, and we therefore call on the Committee to oppose clause 11. Mr. Jim Devine (Livingston) (Lab): Can the hon. Gentleman name one individual who has lost his job in the whisky industry? 1am Mr. Alan Reid: I, too, wish to oppose clause 11. In my Mr. Reid: It is quite obvious that these constant constituency, whisky distilling makes an important increases in duty will deter investment in the industry, contribution to the local economy. It brings jobs to and that will clearly have an effect on employment. One 823 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 824 illogical aspect of the present system is that spirits are prices. Sometimes, the prices of certain things do not taxed far more heavily per unit of alcohol that beers or keep pace with the RPI, even after the duty increases. Is wines. If alcohol were taxed on health grounds, surely whisky— the only logical way to tax it would be based on the units. The present Prime Minister, when he was Chancellor, The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. I am loth to had the policy of freezing the duty on spirits and interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but we covered much of allowing that on beers and wines to catch up. I am that ground earlier in the debate, when I do not think he disappointed that that policy has not continued. was in the Chamber. He has probably given the hon. Various studies over the years have shown that the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr. Reid) enough to sale of spirits is very sensitive to price—far more so work on for the time being. than is the case with wine. A policy of reducing the tax Mr. Reid: The price of whisky is going up, mainly on spirits and increasing that on wine to a comparable because the Government keep on putting the duty up level would probably bring in more money for the higher than the rate of inflation. We saw it in last year’s Treasury. Budget and back in December, and we are now seeing it Scotch whisky is the world’s leading spirit drink. It again. A successful industry such as the Scotch whisky can be produced only in Scotland, but it relies heavily industry should be encouraged, not penalised by constant on products produced throughout the whole of the UK. rises in duty. It is therefore bizarre that a product that is so important to the UK economy is taxed much more heavily than The Government put forward two arguments for the wines, most of which are imported. I doubt that any duty increases—health and the tax yield. However, if other country in the world discriminates against one of health was the reason, the tax per unit of alcohol would its own products in favour of imports in such a way. An be the same for all beverages, with the result that the tax unfortunate side effect of that is that it encourages on whisky would come down and that on beers and other countries to impose unfair duties on Scotch whisky. wines would go up. As for the tax yield argument, there is a severe danger that increasing the duty will lead to a Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold) (Con): On a lower yield because of consumer resistance to buying at day when manufacturing trade has reduced by 0.1 per the higher price. cent., the largest reduction since records began in 1948, The constant rises are likely to have a devastating is it not folly to be increasing the duty on whisky to such effect on employment in the industry, so I urge the an extent when it is one of our key export industries? Committee to reject them tonight. We rely on it and other key exports to get us out of recession and to create jobs. Mr. Redwood: In the preceding debate, it was very disappointing that the Minister was unable to explain Mr. Reid: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. how clause 11 will work in terms of the duty rates, or He makes an important point. Whisky is an important what consequences she thought the changes would have export and, as I was saying, increasing the duty in this for jobs and enterprise in the important businesses and country encourages other countries also to discriminate sectors involved. She was also unable to give a forecast against Scotch whisky. That means that when British of how much more damage would be done. She was not trade negotiators protest about others countries’ harsh even able to say what she thought was the cause of the treatment of the Scotch whisky industry, those countries big escalation in the number of pub closures in recent have an easy riposte—they just say, “But your own months, and she does not seem to have much idea of the country also discriminates against whisky.” impact that the measure will have on business in general. The Scotch whisky industry is very important to the I am delighted that my Front-Bench team are inviting entire economy. It employs more than 10,000 people Conservative Members to vote against the duty measures directly and supports an estimated 50,000 further jobs tonight. If the Government had not spent so much on through its spending on input products. It also provides the banks, or if they were able to control their public a significant boost to our balance of trade. It is also an spending better, they might not need to raise so much important local employer in remote areas where alternative revenue in this rather clumsy way. This change is not the employment is hard to find. For example, the many way to get businesses through or out of a recession, but excellent malts produced in my constituency on the it is deeply damaging to enterprise and prospects. islands of Islay, Jura and Mull provide local employment. Some Labour Members have failed to speak up for It would be very hard to find alternative jobs on those their constituents at all, while others have treated it as a islands. subject of some frivolity because it involves drinking. As a result of the Government’s punitive actions, the All of them should understand that many people in the product produced on those islands brings in large sums business are hurting very badly, and that they are looking for the Treasury but only a small fraction of that money to the Government for help and a lead. However, we are is returned to the islands to be spent on public services. seeing again tonight that absolutely no help is forthcoming. If any hon. Members want to spend their holiday on Mull, they will certainly see the disgraceful state of the Mr. Browne: I shall be brief, and my contribution roads, although they will also see beautiful scenery. will be along the lines of that made by the right hon. Those islands produced great revenue for the Treasury, Member for Wokingham. Like all hon. Members, I but they do not see the return in public services. have received a great many representations on this matter from individuals, pub landlords and brewers in Colin Challen: How does the price of whisky, with my constituency. They have all made it very clear that which I must admit I have a certain affinity, compare they consider that increase in duty over and above the with the RPI? Sometimes, the question of duty is not rate of inflation proposed in this clause will be accurately portrayed in terms of the general increase in detrimental to their businesses. 825 Finance Bill12 MAY 2009 Finance Bill 826

[Mr. Jeremy Browne] Bailey, Mr. Adrian Fitzpatrick, Jim Baird, Vera Flello, Mr. Robert That is not a hypothetical assertion, as one need only Balls, rh Ed Flint, rh Caroline look at the number of pubs closing every day to see Banks, Gordon Flynn, Paul that the change is having a very immediate effect. What Barlow, Ms Celia Follett, Barbara is more, it is having a considerable social impact on Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Foster, Mr. Michael Battle, rh John (Worcester) communities in towns, cities and villages right across Bayley, Hugh Foster, Michael Jabez the country. Beckett, rh Margaret (Hastings and Rye) The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. Again, I am Begg, Miss Anne Francis, Dr. Hywel not anxious to curtail debate, but I must explain that Benn, rh Hilary Gapes, Mike we are not now going over the amendments that we Berry, Roger Gardiner, Barry have had before. With great respect to the hon. Betts, Mr. Clive George, rh Mr. Bruce Blackman, Liz Gilroy, Linda Gentleman, he is in danger of doing that. Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Goggins, Paul Mr. Browne: Thank you, Sir Michael. The Blears, rh Hazel Goodman, Helen amendment is widely drawn and there is scope for Blizzard, Mr. Bob Griffith, Nia overlap, but I was seeking to bring my remarks to a Borrow, Mr. David S. Griffiths, Nigel close. The essential point is that the clause will raise Bradshaw, Mr. Ben Gwynne, Andrew revenue on producers, manufacturers and brewers of Brennan, Kevin Hall, Mr. Mike Brown, Lyn Hall, Patrick alcohol. That will damage both them and communities Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Hamilton, Mr. David in all our constituencies. I hope that hon. Members of Brown, Mr. Russell Hamilton, Mr. Fabian all parties will represent the interests of their Browne, rh Des Hanson, rh Mr. David constituents by voting against the Government on this Bryant, Chris Harris, Mr. Tom matter. Buck, Ms Karen Healey, rh John Mr. Clifton-Brown: I declare an interest as chairman Burden, Richard Hendrick, Mr. Mark Burgon, Colin Hepburn, Mr. Stephen of the all-party wine group. Our group carried out a Cairns, David Hesford, Stephen study of the effect of the Government’s proposed duty Campbell, Mr. Alan Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia increases and the escalator. Our conclusion was that Caton, Mr. Martin Heyes, David jobs and investment would be lost and that revenues Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon would reduce over time, not meet the Government’s Challen, Colin Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey revenue targets. Chapman, Ben Hopkins, Kelvin Whether we are talking about the increase in duty on Clapham, Mr. Michael Howarth, rh Mr. George wine, whisky or beer, we have to recognise that we live Clark, Paul Howells, rh Dr. Kim in an increasingly international world. Hong Kong, by Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hughes, rh Beverley reducing its duty to zero, is taking from London the Clarke,rhMr.Tom Humble, Mrs. Joan market in wine—selling and cellaring—that has been Clelland, Mr. David Hutton, rh Mr. John Clwyd, rh Ann Iddon, Dr. Brian here for centuries. The Government are doing Coaker, Mr. Vernon Illsley, Mr. Eric themselves huge damage with the duty increases. They Coffey, Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw are reducing investment in the industries affected, Cohen, Harry James, Mrs. Siân C. reducing the number of jobs and reducing the tax take Connarty, Michael Jenkins, Mr. Brian they receive because they are reducing consumption of Cooper, Rosie Johnson, rh Alan wine and whisky. On every count, the measures are Cooper, rh Yvette Johnson, Ms Diana R. counter-productive. Corbyn, Jeremy Jones, Lynne Cousins, Jim Joyce, Mr. Eric 1.15 am Crausby, Mr. David Keeble, Ms Sally Mr. Redwood: Does my hon. Friend think that Creagh, Mary Keeley, Barbara Labour Members are ashamed of what they are doing? Cryer, Mrs. Ann Keen, Alan None of them has risen to speak in defence of the Cummings, John Keen, Ann clause, and the Government curtailed debate on the Cunningham, Mr. Jim Kelly, rh Ruth amendments. Cunningham, Tony Kemp, Mr. Fraser David, Mr. Wayne Khan, Mr. Sadiq Mr. Clifton-Brown: My right hon. Friend makes a Davidson, Mr. Ian Kidney, Mr. David good point. What the Government are doing makes Davies, Mr. Quentin Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter no sense. If it increases unemployment, reduces Devine, Mr. Jim Knight, rh Jim investment, reduces consumption and therefore the tax Dismore, Mr. Andrew Kumar, Dr. Ashok take, what on earth is the point of increasing duties Dobbin, Jim Ladyman, Dr. Stephen well above the rate of inflation? I shall oppose the Dobson, rh Frank Lammy, rh Mr. David clause. Doran, Mr. Frank Lazarowicz, Mark Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill. Dowd, Jim Lepper, David Drew, Mr. David Levitt, Tom The Committee divided: Ayes 260, Noes 47. Durkan, Mark Lewis, Mr. Ivan Division No. 122] [1.16 am Eagle, Angela Linton, Martin AYES Eagle, Maria Lloyd, Tony Efford, Clive Love, Mr. Andrew Abbott, Ms Diane Anderson, Mr. David Ellman, Mrs. Louise Lucas, Ian Ainger, Nick Anderson, Janet Engel, Natascha Mackinlay, Andrew Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Austin, Mr. Ian Ennis, Jeff Malik, Mr. Shahid Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Austin, John Fisher, Mark Mallaber, Judy 827 Finance Bill 12 MAY 2009 828

Mann, John Ryan, rh Joan Hosie, Stewart Smith, Sir Robert Marsden, Mr. Gordon Seabeck, Alison Howarth, Mr. Gerald Spink, Bob Martlew, Mr. Eric Sharma, Mr. Virendra Hughes, Simon Stanley, rh Sir John McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Sheridan, Jim MacNeil, Mr. Angus Swinson, Jo McCabe, Steve Simon, Mr. Siôn Mason, John Weir, Mr. Mike McCarthy, Kerry Simpson, Alan Moore, Mr. Michael Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Singh, Mr. Marsha Mulholland, Greg Williams, Hywel McDonagh, Siobhain Skinner, Mr. Dennis Öpik, Lembit Williams, Mr. Roger McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Slaughter, Mr. Andy Redwood, rh Mr. John Williams, Stephen McFall, rh John Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Robathan, Mr. Andrew Wishart, Pete McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Smith, Ms Angela C. Robertson, Angus Younger-Ross, Richard McIsaac, Shona (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Rogerson, Dan Tellers for the Noes: McKechin, Ann Smith, Geraldine Russell, Bob John Howell and McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Smith, rh Jacqui Sanders, Mr. Adrian Mr. Alan Reid Merron, Gillian Snelgrove, Anne Michael, rh Alun Soulsby, Sir Peter Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Southworth, Helen Question accordingly agreed to. Miliband, rh Edward Spellar, rh Mr. John Clause 11 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Miller, Andrew Starkey, Dr. Phyllis To report progress and ask leave to sit again.— Mitchell, Mr. Austin Stewart, Ian Moffat, Anne Stoate, Dr. Howard (Mr. Watts.) Moffatt, Laura Straw, rh Mr. Jack The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. Mole, Chris Stringer, Graham Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow. Morden, Jessica Stuart, Ms Gisela Morgan, Julie Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Tami, Mark Business without Debate Mullin, Mr. Chris Taylor, Ms Dari Munn, Meg Taylor, David Murphy, Mr. Denis Thomas, Mr. Gareth DELEGATED LEGISLATION Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Thornberry, Emily Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): With the Naysmith, Dr. Doug Tipping, Paddy leave of the House, we shall take motions 3,4 and Norris, Dan Todd, Mr. Mark 5 together. O’Brien, Mr. Mike Touhig, rh Mr. Don O’Hara, Mr. Edward Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Turner, Dr. Desmond Olner, Mr. Bill Order No. 118(6)), Osborne, Sandra Turner, Mr. Neil Owen, Albert Twigg, Derek INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT Palmer, Dr. Nick Vis, Dr. Rudi That the draft Financial Assistance for Industry (Increase of Pearson, Ian Walley, Joan Limit) (No. 2) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on Plaskitt, Mr. James Waltho, Lynda 1 April, be approved. Prentice, Mr. Gordon Ward, Claire That the draft Financial Assistance for Industry (Increase of Primarolo, rh Dawn Watts, Mr. Dave Limit) (No. 3) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on Prosser, Gwyn Whitehead, Dr. Alan 1 April, be approved. Purchase, Mr. Ken Williams, Mrs. Betty Purnell, rh James Wilson, Phil CONSTITUTIONAL LAW Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Winnick, Mr. David Reed, Mr. Andy That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedule 4) Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 1 April, be Reed, Mr. Jamie Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun approved.—(Mr. Watts.) Riordan, Mrs. Linda Woolas, Mr. Phil Question agreed to. Robertson, John Wright, Mr. Anthony Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Wright, David Rooney, Mr. Terry Wright, Mr. Iain Roy, Mr. Frank REGULATORY REFORM Wyatt, Derek Roy, Lindsay Ruane, Chris Tellers for the Ayes: LICENCES AND LICENSING Ruddock, Joan Helen Jones and Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Russell, Christine Ms Dawn Butler Order No. 18(1)), That the draft Legislative Reform (Minor Variations to Premises NOES Licences and ClubPremises Certificates) Order 2009, which was Afriyie, Adam Duddridge, James laid before this House on 26 March, be approved.—(Mr. Watts.) Barrett, John Evans, Mr. Nigel Question agreed to. Binley, Mr. Brian Foster, Mr. Don Bone, Mr. Peter George, Andrew Brady, Mr. Graham Goodwill, Mr. Robert EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Browne, Mr. Jeremy Hands, Mr. Greg Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Bruce, rh Malcolm Harris, Dr. Evan Order No. 119(11)), Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Hayes, Mr. John Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Hemming, John MARITIME TRANSPORT Davies, Mr. Dai Hoban, Mr. Mark That this House takes note of European Union Documents Davies, Philip Horwood, Martin Nos. 5779/09, Commission Communication on Strategic goals 829 Business without Debate 12 MAY 2009 830 and recommendations for the EU’s maritime transport policy Sleep Apnoea (Road Deaths) until 2018, and 5775/09, Commission Communication on Communication and action plan with a view to establishing a Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House European maritime transport space without barriers; and endorses do now adjourn.—(Mr. Watts.) the Government’s support for appropriate action at the European level where this would be effective in promoting European shipping, and providing economic, social, environmental, and regulatory 1.28 am benefits.—(Mr. Watts.) Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): On 8 August Question agreed to. 2006, 25-year-old Toby Tweddell set off to work along the M62 near Liverpool. On the way, a lorry ploughed FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO INDUSTRY into his car, and as a result of the accident Toby died. The lives of his family and friends were devastated: his Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Order, fiancée Jenny, parents Monica and Nic, his uncle, my 30 April, and Standing Order No. 118(6)), constituent Seb Schmoller, and many others. It was a dreadful day, too, for Colin Wrighton, the lorry driver FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO INDUSTRY who killed Toby. He had fallen asleep at the wheel of his That this House authorises the Secretary of State to undertake vehicle, which crashed into a line of cars. Colin Wrighton to pay, by way of financial assistance under section 8 of the had seen his doctor just five months earlier complaining Industrial Development Act 1982, in respect of the Scrappage of tiredness. Tests to find out whether he was diabetic Scheme, sums exceeding £10 million and up to a cumulative total of £300 million to vehicle manufacturers for the assistance of the returned negative, and he was told he was probably automotive industry.—(Mr. Watts.) suffering from stress. The medical profession’s failure to diagnose sleep apnoea and refer Colin Wrighton to a Question agreed to. consultant in sleep medicine meant that he has had to come to terms with the awful result of the accident that he caused. Toby Tweddell’s family were left asking questions, such as whether it was a freak accident or something more common. They asked questions about why drivers fall asleep at the wheel, about sleep apnoea and about why this relatively common condition is so poorly diagnosed, leaving road users at risk of injury and death. The family discovered that in the four months from October 2007, at least four cases came before UK courts of drivers of large goods vehicles accused of causing death by dangerous driving. The incidents killed nine people. All four LGV drivers were suffering from sleep apnoea, but that was diagnosed only after these terrible accidents. The family’s research has led them to conclude that there is a systemic failure to take sleep apnoea and its consequences seriously. Sleep apnoea is a sleep disorder in which the upper airway repeatedly closes, causing people to wake up briefly in order to breathe. People with sleep apnoea wake many times an hour; their pattern of sleep is disrupted, leading to tiredness and sleepiness during the day. Research has shown that someone deprived of sleep has the same impairment of reaction time and judgment as someone who is over the drink-drive limit. One study calculated that people with severe sleep apnoea are between six and 15 times more likely to be involved in a road traffic accident. Sleep apnoea is also highly correlated with being overweight. The lifestyle of lorry drivers means that many are significantly overweight—they lead a sedentary lifestyle, keep unsocial hours and have unhealthy diets. A study of lorry drivers showed that only 11 per cent. had a body mass index of less than 25, that just over 38 per cent. had body mass indexes of between 25 and 30, which is considered to be overweight, and that 50 per cent. had body mass indexes of more than 30, which is considered to be obese. Britain’s leading sleep experts believe that nearly one in six lorry drivers may have sleep apnoea—that is nearly 80,000 of the nearly 500,000 LGV drivers. Sufferers from sleep apnoea tend to under-report difficulties when driving, perhaps for fear of losing their licence and livelihood. Identification of sleep apnoea is now relatively 831 Sleep Apnoea (Road Deaths)12 MAY 2009 Sleep Apnoea (Road Deaths) 832 easy. Sufferers are provided with a continuous positive Those questions do not adequately identify sleep apnoea airway pressure machine, or CPAP. A mask that blows sufferers. The DVLA should look again at how these air into the airways is placed over the nose during sleep. forms can identify that there may be a possible diagnosis Sufferers breathe normally, but the slightly higher pressure of sleep apnoea. One option would be a requirement of air in the nose helps keep the upper airway open. that the driver’s body mass index be calculated and for Almost all drivers suffering from the condition can be the doctor’s attention be directed to the higher incidence back at work very soon after obtaining effective treatment. of sleep apnoea among obese people. Successful treatment improves their quality of life as While some major businesses in road and passenger well as that of their families. transport take sleep apnoea seriously, I am not aware of Following the inquest into the death of Toby Tweddell, any example of a company routinely testing its drivers. I Coroner Sumner took the unusual step of issuing a rule have been working with my constituent, Seb Schmoller, 43 report to the Lord Chancellor’s Department. It and sleep disorder experts to set up a trial with a called for a toughening of the licensing regime for responsible employer to screen and test their employees. commercial drivers. Coroner Sumner stated that sleep Discussions are at an advanced stage with the Co-operative apnoea is no respecter of age, and criticised the absence Group. I am convinced that this process will demonstrate of any provision the value of screening. “for a lorry driver to have to undergo any form of routine medical examination from the time of their qualification to drive until The Department for Transport needs to tighten the their 45th birthday”. requirements for identifying potential sufferers of sleep He went on to note that apnoea through requiring regular screening of public service vehicle and large goods vehicle drivers as part of “lorry driving involves little physical effort and there is evidence of obesity within the industry”, the licensing process. Furthermore, it should be a requirement on road haulage and passenger transport and that operators for them to have screening processes in place. “apart from other medical complications arising from obesity, The Department for Work and Pensions, in dialogue there is evidence to suggest that overweight people are more likely with the Health and Safety Commission, has to ensure to suffer from sleep apnoea”. that the Health and Safety Executive plays a much more The coroner’s rule 43 report called for the following: prominent role in relation to work-related fatal road regular medical screening for all lorry drivers; amendment traffic accidents and their prevention. It has responsibilities of the DVLA medical examination report form to for minimising work-related death and injury, and powers improve identification of undiagnosed sufferers from to insist on action by employers to prevent risks to sleep apnoea; fast-track medical assessment of commercial non-employees—that is, road users at risk from drivers drivers involved in road traffic collisions; better education suffering from sleep apnoea. In particular, the HSE of all drivers on the dangers of tiredness when driving, should consider whether there is a need to introduce in the same manner as drink-driving campaigns; and legislation, if necessary on a European basis, on compulsory better education of commercial drivers to make them testing of professional drivers for sleep apnoea. aware that a diagnosis of sleep apnoea is almost certainly not the end of their livelihood as a driver. Employers have duties to those other than their The Department for Transport responded to the coroner’s employees, as stated in the Health and Safety at Work, request in November 2008, arguing that current etc. Act 1974. Section 3(1) says: arrangements for the control of sleep apnoea are adequate. “It shall be the duty of every employer to conduct his undertaking In his letter to Toby’s father, the coroner said: in such a way as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that “If I were honest, I would say it is a ‘fudge’. It is merely a persons not in his employment who may be affected thereby are recitation of the position today. If that were so perfect then you not thereby exposed to risks to their health or safety.” would not have lost your son.” The Department of Health also needs to ensure that The response from the Department stated that no change those involved in the diagnosis of sleep apnoea are well is needed to the DVLA medical examination report briefed about the problem, its symptoms, and its serious form, which doctors complete with applicants for vocational implications. Consideration should therefore be given driving licences, or to the frequency with which large to making it a responsibility of doctors to report their goods vehicle drivers should undergo routine medical diagnosis to the DVLA, rather than that being solely examination. the responsibility of the driver. In the “information and useful notes” that the DVLA I know the Minister believes that the incidence of publishes for use with the medical examination report road traffic accidents caused by sleep apnoea is low. The forms, there is no mention of obesity as being positively Metropolitan police has told me that it believes that correlated with the incidence of sleep apnoea. The more accidents have been caused by sleep problems information currently online states, bizarrely, that than have currently been identified. The introduction of “at least three in every thousand men” post-accident assessment—a system of fast-tracking have sleep apnoea, yet among applicants or those renewing drivers involved in serious road traffic accidents to vocational licences the incidence is probably nearer to assessment of the possibility of their having sleep apnoea— one in 15. All applicants and reapplicants for large would assist in getting more accurate data. goods vehicle and public service vehicle licences must Before I finish, I pay tribute to all the people who are complete a medical examination report with their general working hard to address this worrying situation: Toby’s practitioner. That form contains the questions fiancée Jenny, and his family, Nic, Monica and Seb; “Does the applicant have sleep apnoea syndrome?” Professor Jim Horne and Louise Reyner from the sleep and research centre at Loughborough University; Dr. John “Is there any other medical condition causing excessive daytime Shneerson, from Papworth hospital; Dr. Dev Banerjee sleepiness?” from Birmingham Heartlands hospital; Dr. Stephen 833 Sleep Apnoea (Road Deaths)12 MAY 2009 Sleep Apnoea (Road Deaths) 834

[Meg Munn] sleep feeling fully refreshed, and they tend to fall asleep easily when relaxing. They might not understand how Bianchi from the Royal Hallamshire hospital in Sheffield; chronically sleepy they are. and Commander Shabir Hussain and Detective Drivers with undiagnosed or untreated OSA are a Superintendent Glyn Jones from the Metropolitan police. significant risk to themselves and others on the roads. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister recognises All drivers must, by law, inform the DVLA if they the importance of continuing to improve the UK’s develop a medical condition, including a sleep disorder, good record on road safety. Unfortunately, the response which may affect their ability to drive safely. Medical to the coroner reads like a list of reasons why things inquiries are then undertaken to establish whether those cannot change, rather than showing willingness to consider drivers should retain their licences. If the condition is necessary change. However, my hon. Friend did say that diagnosed, effective treatment is available, as described the Government keep under constant consideration the by my hon. Friend. various practical ways in which they can ensure that Drivers should be reassured that they will normally road safety is not compromised by people who are not be allowed to continue driving, once satisfactory control fit to drive. of the condition is achieved. I emphasise that, generally, Today, there are people driving large vehicles who are satisfactory control can be achieved very quickly. In suffering from undiagnosed sleep apnoea. Will my hon. only a week or two of treatment, most people comment Friend commit to addressing the issues that I have on how much better and more refreshed they feel. raised? In particular, will he agree to meet me and key people to discuss the matter? Will he commit his In response to my hon. Friend’s specific question, I Department to work with the DVLA on improving assure her that the DVLA is looking at making its screening for sleep apnoea of all applicants for large guidance notes for doctors more explicit to highlight goods vehicle and public service vehicle licences? Will the importance of sleep apnoea. However, the DVLA he contact the Health and Safety Executive to improve must have reasonable grounds for believing that somebody the understanding of the responsibility of road haulage is suffering from a relevant disability. It cannot initiate employers in relation to sleep apnoea? Finally, will he medical investigations of fitness to drive unless there work with the Department of Health to achieve improved are reasonable grounds for believing that there is a briefing of medical practitioners involved in the diagnosis relevant disability. The DVLA cannot screen for of sleep apnoea? undiagnosed conditions. This is an important discussion tonight, when we are Investigation of symptoms, diagnosis and treatment all feeling somewhat sleep-deprived. I hope that my are matters for a doctor. As in the case that we are hon. Friend the Minister will be able to respond positively considering, there are, unfortunately, individuals whose to my suggestions. symptoms have not been recognised, and have therefore not been treated. Some drivers also press on when they feel tired and unwell. We aim to manage the problem by 1.42 am improving the range of information to drivers, and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport especially to the medical profession. (Jim Fitzpatrick): I congratulate my hon. Friend the There are circumstances in which doctors can inform Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn), who is a the DVLA of any concerns, and they have a professional good friend, on securing the debate. I begin on an obligation to report a driver who is still driving against immediate constructive note by saying that I am happy medical advice. The DVLA publication, “At a Glance to meet her and others as she has requested. Guide to the Current Medical Standards of Fitness to This issue is of particular concern to my hon. Friend’s Drive”, includes a section on sleep disorders, specifically constituents, following the tragic death of Toby Tweddell, mentioning sleep apnoea. The Department’s publication, which she described, in a crash on the M62 in July 2007 “Fitness to Drive: a guide for health professionals”, involving a lorry driver who was subsequently found to also includes a chapter on sleep disorders. be suffering from obstructive sleep apnoea. Many hon. Articles and reminders about the condition have been Members on both sides of the House have written to me placed on medical information e-mails for medical about the matter, and I sympathise very much with the professionals. In response to my hon. Friend’s question, family and their friends for their sad loss. the Department also attends the Health and Safety We at the Department for Transport are very concerned Executive’s road distribution action group’s sub-group about the contribution of driver tiredness to casualties on fatigue. We are working with the HSE, unions and on our roads. Our research suggests that up to one fifth employers on the extent of fatigue generally among of crashes on motorways and other main roads may be commercial vehicle drivers, and on how to address it caused by drivers falling asleep at the wheel. Driver with employers and drivers. That includes writing articles sleepiness could be caused by modern lifestyles preventing for industry journals. people from getting enough rest, and aggravated by In addition, the Department is preparing to consult shift working, especially when combined with monotonous the haulage industry on the UK domestic drivers hours types of driving. Besides a lack of adequate rest, some rules. That consultation will include discussion of driver medical conditions may cause drowsiness and increase fatigue and possible means to manage it. A leaflet—“Think! any normal tendency to sleepiness. Tiredness can kill”—has been distributed to clinics The usual medical cause for excessive sleepiness, however, treating sleep disorders. Copies are included in the is obstructive sleep apnoea syndrome, which occurs Smart Tachograph packs issued by the DVLA to lorry most commonly, but not exclusively, in overweight drivers, and in operator packs issued by the Vehicle and individuals. It can be associated with diabetes and other Operator Services Agency. Banner adverts about the medical disorders. Sufferers rarely wake from overnight condition have been placed on the DirectGov motoring 835 Sleep Apnoea (Road Deaths)12 MAY 2009 Sleep Apnoea (Road Deaths) 836 page and an animated message runs at DVLA local Most relate to ordinary and not commercial licence offices that are used by the public. holders. The Department is trying to improve the police notification system further. Our “Think!” campaign has produced a range of In conclusion, I appreciate the Tweddell family’s concern materials on driver tiredness, including radio adverts that their son was tragically lost in spite of all the broadcast last year to reach a working driver audience. measures that we have in place and the fact that they By September 2014, all group 2 drivers will have to would want to improve them. I can assure the House complete 35 hours of training every five years for their that we keep under constant consideration the various certificate of professional competence. Part of the syllabus practical ways in which we can ensure that road safety is addresses physical fitness and healthy lifestyle, and includes not compromised by people who are not fit to drive. the effects of fatigue. The House knows that reducing the casualty toll on our To answer my hon. Friend’s final specific question, roads is a priority. Our current strategy has improved the DVLA already engages with the medical profession road safety significantly, reducing the numbers of deaths in several ways to heighten awareness of OSA. It has and serious injuries by 36 per cent. over the past decade. provided an e-mail transmission message that was issued But eight deaths a day is still appalling. It is too many directly to GPs on the subject. It provides an “At a and we need to make our roads safer still. “A Safer Glance Guide”, which is aimed at medical professionals Way”, the consultation document that was launched but is also available to the general public. The DVLA’s last month, proposes a new approach to road safety, animated message in its local offices specifically suggests ambitious new casualty reduction targets and a number that individuals mention OSA when seeking medical of new measures to assist in achieving those targets. It advice. The DVLA’s senior medical adviser is in close also proposes a long-term vision to make Britain’s contact with the British Sleep Society about OSA and roads the safest in the world once again. I encourage all other sleep disorders and driving. those who are interested in road safety to read the document and to join in the debate. I also look forward There is already a system whereby the police can to meeting my hon. Friend and her colleagues in due notify the DVLA when they suspect that a medical course. condition of any kind is relevant to a driving-related Question put and agreed to. incident. Some 3,500 such reports are made annually, covering a range of medical conditions. Those reports 1.51 am are treated as a high priority and are always investigated. House adjourned.

165WH 12 MAY 2009 India 166WH

tell the House that the visit provided us with the opportunity Westminster Hall to experience India from a strictly business perspective, and to share our experiences and impressions of the Tuesday 12 May 2009 challenges and opportunities that are faced by UK companies operating in Chennai and Mumbai. Today’s debate has attracted huge interest in various quarters. [JIM SHERIDAN in the Chair] I thank the excellent House of Commons Library. India Members of Parliament have every cause to be grateful to the Library for its expertise. It has provided us with a Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting magnificent pack on India, which covers every aspect of be now adjourned.—(Bill Rammell.) life there. I shall certainly shall use it as a bible on the subject. 9.30 am Lionel Altman, who ran my Westminster office from Mr. David Amess (Southend, West) (Con): I have 1984, died earlier this year. He was a serving member of been advised, Mr. Sheridan, that this is your debut as the City of London council at the time, and I am Chairman of proceedings in Westminster Hall. As a delighted to have been contacted by the lord mayor of fellow member of the Chairmen’s Panel, I know that I London and the corporation’s chairman of policy and speak for everyone in wishing you well in the post. resources, Stuart Fraser, who are interested in this debate. I am honoured to be a trustee of the Industry and Indeed, the City of London will shortly be sending Parliament Trust. As such, I was fortunate enough to people to India to see what further business opportunities lead a delegation to India. It was a two-centred visit—to there may be there. I congratulate them on that. Mumbai and Chennai. I shall go into detail about that The group that visited India included 10 parliamentarians. presently, but I take this opportunity to thank everyone There is criticism that the House of Commons and the in the trust for the magnificent work that they do in House of Lords do not always work in tandem, but that these increasingly turbulent times for Members of certainly was not the case for us. We were blessed in Parliament, bringing them up to speed on a number of every sense that Baroness Coussins and Lord Janvrin crucial issues. were there. Those two individuals brought with them a I remind the House that the IPT is a registered wealth of talent and experience. As a result, our meetings charity. It was set up to foster understanding between developed in a way that would not have been possible those who create and maintain the industrial wealth of had it been only Members of Parliament; we would our country—including legislators, who unfortunately then not have been able to engage in the challenging might be seen in many quarters as the sales prevention exchanges that we did. team. I would robustly resist that charge, but some Of the eight Members of Parliament involved, most believe that Members of Parliament do not live in the are not able to be here this morning. They include the real world and that they have no understanding of what right hon. Member for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney), it is like to run a business. the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs. Moon) and my More than 600 parliamentarians have participated in hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell). IPT fellowship programmes since the organisation was The hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Derek founded in 1977. I became an advocate of the organisation Wyatt) is here, but he has to operate in a Trappist mode in the days when I was MP for Basildon; I was given the this morning, acting as Parliamentary Private Secretary chance by the Esso organisation, and it was a wonderful to the Minister. I will certainly touch on the work of the opportunity. I am now doing a post-graduate course British Council. My eight colleagues, all very different with Bank America. personalities, were a joy to be with, not only for the quality of the questions that they put to our hosts but in The trip to India was the result of recent research the way that the group gelled together. The IPT is undertaken by the IPT with business leaders in the UK, an example of both Houses working together at their which found that they wished MPs to be more informed best, especially in providing all sorts of opportunities about various key issues. More than 66 per cent. of for UK plc. respondents stated that the emerging economies were a priority. The research also revealed that many We saw the demise of the British Raj in 1947, a long parliamentarians were thought to lack sufficient time ago. India has a population of 1.3 billion, and it is understanding of the challenges and opportunities presented the world’s largest democracy. Poverty is widespread, by new and developing economies. It is not for me to with 62 per cent. of the population living in slums. say how American legislators should pursue matters, Three of the worlds’ 20 mega-cities are in India. India’s but having recently been to China and India, I would is a fast growing economy, with a large, skilled work say that more American parliamentarians could and force and a burgeoning urban middle class. As well as should take the opportunity of visiting those two countries Hindi and English, India has 16 other official languages; and learning at first hand how they are developing. sadly, none of them has been mastered by the Member of Parliament for Southend, West. Gross national income It was as a direct consequence of the findings of the per capita is only $950, which highlights the comparatively report that a successful fellowship programme was run low-wage economy that makes India so competitive. to China last year, in particular to Shanghai. I and a India is a young country, with 70 per cent. of the number of hon. Members were on that trip, and it was population being 27 and under. By 2050, India will be extremely valuable in every sense. the second largest economy in the world. The objective of the IPT India fellowship was to educate parliamentarians on how United Kingdom Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): I am delighted that businesses operate in emerging economies, and to show the hon. Gentleman mentioned the special relationship that Westminster could do more to help. I am pleased to between this country and India. Does he agree that the 167WH India12 MAY 2009 India 168WH

[Bob Spink] Council. It was an education for me. Parliamentarians should be encouraged to take much more advantage of best way in which we can help India is to trade with it? the opportunities that the British Council can provide Is he aware that the director-general of the World Trade in business, social activity, leisure and all sorts of other Organisation said that protectionism in the EU—I do areas. I, for one, was very impressed with the networking not want to be characterised as a serial EU-basher—is a skills of the British Council. We do not currently use it major problem for our trade with countries such as to its full potential. India? World trade could collapse by 9 per cent. this Our visit could not have been better timed, given the year. What can we do to ensure that we shift the EU’s recent comment and media coverage in the wake of the trade policy away from protectionism? film, “Slumdog Millionaire” and its triumph at the Oscars. None of us realised that India was not especially Mr. Amess: I agree absolutely. In fact, shortly I shall proud of the portrayal of the Mumbai slums. Much enlarge on how we can create better opportunities for more importantly, however, our trip also followed in the trading our goods and services. I shall talk about the wake of the atrocities of the bombing and armed occupation British embassy consuls and the British Council. The of the Taj Mahal Palace and Tower hotel. delegation saw how Indian business women and men Our comprehensive educational visit involved spending are very keen to do business with us; relations, in every time in a number of locations, attending presentations sense, could not be better. I probably shall not be and visiting industrial sites to gain an insight into tempted to enlarge too much on the EU, but, given his various sectors at a grass-roots level. We saw first hand responsibilities, perhaps the Minister will come up with how India has developed its own markets in education, some solutions on trade barriers when he winds up the manufacturing, high technology, defence, construction debate. and pharmaceuticals. An additional emphasis was placed The United Kingdom has a long-established and on the cultural and creative industries through a visit to special relationship with India on which we should Bollywood—this will put colleagues’ noses out of joint, build. In our time-honoured British tradition, we introduced but I was the only hon. Member signed by Bollywood. to India our own language, the art of bureaucracy, parliamentary democracy and cricket—just one of the Mr. Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): I have sports that we invented and at which others occasionally been tempted to my feet by the hon. Gentleman’s comments beat us, although our recent performance against the that he was the only one to get a response from Bollywood. West Indies was splendid. Parliament can greatly assist What role will it offer him? Furthermore, what role will UK business in further maximising opportunities through he play in encouraging more exchanges between businesses forging strong and mutually beneficial relationships. and educationalists in Britain and India? That is very The fellowship, which met in March, organised some important for building confidence. Not only are British superb seminars bringing together experts able to give companies going over to India, but Indian companies, parliamentarians an insight into the journey that India such as Tata and others, are coming over here; mutual has been on, where it is now and where it is likely to go business exchanges are already taking place. I hope that in the future. It proved useful to have those seminars that will continue. before the trip. Furthermore, I speak for everyone in thanking most warmly Virgin Airlines, which not only Mr. Amess: I agree absolutely with the hon. Gentleman. took care of our travel, but looked after us throughout On a serious note about Bollywood, however, it is a very our stay. The visit raised our awareness of what more successful industry that presents all sorts of opportunities. British businesses can, and should, do in India, and Our trip was in no sense a junket, and already action how we parliamentarians can assist them. We were has resulted. Not only are we having this debate, but briefed by the deputy high commissioner and UK Trade Baroness Coussins and Lord Janvrin have produced a and Investment in Mumbai and Chennai on their work wonderful report identifying a number of things to do in encouraging UK business to enter the Indian to build on and develop business opportunities and marketplace. In the lobby afterwards, I had a brief word cultural and educational links—I shall come to those with the Indian Foreign Secretary, and mentioned to shortly. Being accompanied by Members of the House him that we had had a very positive trip, because it of Lords was a blessing. Members of Parliament tend coincided with some of the commissioners being over. I to come back from such trips full of good intentions, wanted to pass on our thanks via the Foreign Secretary. but we are busy people who have to respond to the daily We also gained a great understanding of how Parliament news and so on. We felt that Members of the House of can better highlight India’s prospects in encouraging Lords would be less distracted, which has already proved investment in Britain. I wish to make a serious point to to be the case. Thanks to Baroness Coussins and Lord the Minister that we picked up during our trip about the Janvrin, we will make absolutely sure that the India visa application process with which Indian business fellowship, organised by the IPT, and our trip, have a executives must contend in order to visit Britain. Various positive outcome. people said that there is a lack of business experience Throughout the trip, we were indebted to Sally among the Foreign and Commonwealth people working Muggeridge and Sarah Hutchison for their support in, on the UKTI desk at the Mumbai high commission. I among other things, organising with businesses a wonderful hope that he will reflect on that point. UKTI and the programme of events. They would be the first to say, UK India Business Council have important roles to however, that the trip would not have been such a play, and all their activities need to be closely co-ordinated. success without the wonderful team of other IPT employees. The hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey I am also indebted to the support of the chairman of provided us with tremendous assistance, and throughout the IPT, the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Olner) our trip we were delighted with the work of the British and the deputy of the IPT board of trustees. Highlights 169WH India12 MAY 2009 India 170WH of our trip to Mumbai included a visit to the Bombay few months earlier. Shell was an early entrant to the stock exchange, where we were given an excellent insight Indian market, starting with oil lubricants and building into Indian capital markets. We get star-struck by Wall up a sizable joint venture that now provides leading street, so we were allowed to sound the gong to open research into emissions management and climate change trading, even though no one was actually listening. controls, which is vital in a country the size and scale of That was complemented by a visit to HSBC and India. KPMG in which we discussed business opportunities in We finished our visit at the Colonial Bombay yacht India and those companies’ impressive approaches to club with a briefing by Bombay First, which is modelled corporate responsibility and social enterprise. Cadbury on our own London First. Standing by the gateway to showed us its activities in India and told us that chocolate India, it left us with a fitting memory of how India used is a great luxury in India. On average, a child consumes to be in colonial times. just one bar of chocolate a year. Hindustan Unilever In conclusion, I had three aims when I applied for outlined its distribution to rural areas and told us how this debate. I wanted my colleagues to give their opinions its products encourage economic activity among the of the value of the trip and say how, in the months and very poorest. Tata provided us with the opportunity to years head, we intend to follow on the relationships that learn about the launch of the world’s cheapest car, the we formed during the visit. Secondly, in a humble and environmentally efficient Nano car, which is initially inarticulate fashion, I wanted to raise the awareness of aimed at the Indian market. what more British business can do in India and, thirdly, The Indian economy is enjoying growth of 7 per I wanted to set out how the House can help to build on cent.—albeit from a low base—with unit labour costs the expertise. Even in such difficult times, with the state much lower than those in most other countries. Through of the British and the world economy, more can be its factory in southern India, the manufacturer Supreme done. Does the Minister think that sufficient assistance is responsible for producing many of the recycled bags is being given to encourage India to invest more in that we see in Boots and a number of other supermarkets British business? and shops on the high street. It provides vital skills and It was, in every sense, an honour and privilege to have employment opportunities for young women and men, been part of the delegation. We had some fun. Some of who are often the only wage earner in a family. us occasionally wandered into the markets in different A visit was made to a recently established business streets in India, and it is true to say that one or two of us park to see the new and very high-tech engineering bumped into tailors, and visited silk factories and the plant of the United Kingdom manufacturer, GKN. We like. None the less, throughout the visit, we engaged in were delighted when our hosts asked us to unveil plaques hard and constructive relationship-building work. We on trees, and I am told that those trees are still thriving. even managed to cope with the wonderful travails of No visit to Mumbai by parliamentarians would be our bus driver. The members of the delegation owe a complete without visiting the high sheriff, who will huge debt of gratitude to all the businesses that supported shortly visit us in Parliament, which shows the hon. us and made the trip possible and, above all, to the staff Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Sharma) that things of the IPT who enabled us to follow such a magnificent are happening and that they are being followed up. The educational programme. high sheriff of Mumbai chairs a leading engineering institution in which one third of the graduates are 9.57 am women. Finally, we explored the burgeoning film industry at Yash Raj Bollywood studios, which was, in every Ian Stewart (Eccles) (Lab): I apologise to the Chamber sense, wonderful. because I am still suffering from what my wife describes Chennai—or Madras as it was known to the British—on as man flu. [Interruption.] My wife has assured me that the east coast of India provided us with a contrast and it is not swine flu. However, she also said that I was a yet another opportunity to see many successful business swine with flu. ventures. While I was out there I visited a school, which, It is a real pleasure to be involved in this debate and I am delighted to tell the Chamber, will be twinned with to welcome you, Mr. Sheridan, on your first outing as Belfairs school in Southend, West. I have to say though Chair of a Westminster Hall debate. It is important that that, thanks to the British Council, I was already pushing life experience and qualifications are taken into account at an open door. in the chairing of such debates, so my welcome to you is The highly respected Indian Institute of Technology sincerely meant. showed us its leading edge research projects in biotechnology First, let me apologise on behalf of my right hon. and told us that a high volume of its graduates are Friend the Member for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney), employed in blue chip companies every year. BAE who hoped to be here this morning but has been detained Systems has enjoyed successful business activities in on other business. Later on, I will say something about India for many years, and, at a reception jointly hosted him and his activities in relation to India, but now I by the deputy high commissioner, Mike Connor, it shall try to follow the detailed contribution from the provided us with a presentation of its current initiatives. hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Amess), who Sally Muggeridge and the hon. Member for Sittingbourne was leader of the delegation. and Sheppey visited the Madras cricket club. They I support all the hon. Gentleman’s comments about stood on the pitch at 8.30 am in 30 degrees of heat. I am the Industry and Parliament Trust and the other bodies informed that, sadly, no one saw a live elephant. Returning and individuals involved in the exercise, and I wish to to Mumbai, we enjoyed a dinner and presentation given place on record on behalf of the whole delegation, and by Shell, which took place at the Taj Mahal Palace and of the IPT itself, our appreciation of his leadership. He Tower hotel in the very room in which guests had is variously known as an outspoken and sometime sheltered from terrorists during the siege of the hotel a outrageous Member of the House, but I have to say that 171WH India12 MAY 2009 India 172WH

[Ian Stewart] of charity and prefer the concept of giving back, meaning that what we take out of society we should, in some on this occasion he was outstanding in his leadership. measure, return to those less fortunate. He carried things off with dignity and was a good On the giving back aspect, I should refer to my right representative of the House on our visit. hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield, who not only I am a great supporter of the IPT, which, since 1997, brought to bear his experience as a trade Minister, but is has gone through various changes, and I pay tribute to personally involved in the Women’s Interlink Foundation, Sally Muggeridge. During her tenure, the organisation which is based in Calcutta. The organisation rescues, has improved and become a major player in the House rehabilitates and educates street children so that they and between the House and industry more widely. In have better prospects in life. giving credit to the IPT, I mention specifically Sally I mention that because my right hon. Friend is a Muggeridge and Sarah Hutchison, as the hon. Gentleman good example of a Member of the House who does did, but they had a big team behind them to make us a things that the public do not get to know about, and his real, working delegation that produced positive outcomes, commitment should be applauded. He and his wife, not least this debate. Ann, personally contribute many thousands of pounds I also support the hon. Gentleman’s comments about from their family resources—not from expenses or anything Baroness Coussins and Lord Janvrin, who brought like that—to the project. In the current climate, all their specific life experiences and skills to the trip, which parliamentarians, without exception, are accused of assisted the delegation and raised our awareness and being greedy, but sometimes, somebody needs to stand understanding of what was happening. I was impressed up and say, “This is what parliamentarians do,” and my that an expert on corporate social responsibility such as right hon. Friend and his wife are just one such example— Baroness Coussins was prepared to develop her own there are many more in the House, from all parties. thinking based on our experiences in India. That is the I must declare an interest of my own: I am a trustee measure of a real expert: someone who can progress of the Kanka-Gajendra Foundation. My old friend and and who is not afraid to admit that they are changing mentor, Professor Gajendra Verma, and his late wife, their thinking based on new information. Kanka, have been quite influential in my life. I have Lord Janvrin is an old India hand and was able to learned a lot from those old Indian friends, who live give us a running commentary and explanation based near my constituency in Greater Manchester. When on his experience as a diplomat in the country. He and Kanka Malick died 18 months or so ago, her friends Baroness Coussins were significant members of the wanted to honour her life and achievements, so the delegation. foundation was set up, and I became a governing trustee. Perhaps it is wrong to point out individuals, but my The purpose of the foundation is to help with education right hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield was another and health issues in India and in the UK, and some of significant member. The expertise and experience that the projects have been staggering. They raised my awareness he gained when carrying out his Government work as a of how wide the gap is between Mumbai, which is an trade Minister were appreciated by every single member exceptionally developed modern, international city, and of the delegation some of the rural areas, especially in the north of India, which have fundamental environmental and other problems. The delegation included the Front-Bench spokespersons for the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats, which When we, as parliamentarians and British citizens, led me to recognise perhaps not a failing of the House, get involved with charitable bodies—or giving back but something that it might develop. It stands to reason bodies, as Indians prefer to call them—that is sometimes that Ministers of any Government will have the opportunity an exercise in satisfying our own egos. It shows that we to go abroad to see the implications of Government are good people doing good things. Parts of India are as policy, but there does not seem to be a similar facility developed as anywhere in the UK or America, but the for the Opposition. gap between the developed parts and those in need is staggering. It is not uncommon to see a five-star hotel The IPT and other House bodies, such as the or residence with a piece of tarpaulin against the wall at Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the Inter- the end of the garden, under which a whole family live. Parliamentary Union, give Opposition Front-Bench We felt quite ill at ease when we saw such poverty spokespersons an opportunity to test their policies, cheek by jowl with wealth. When we asked the wealthy ideas and thinking against the actuality throughout the owners of the buildings what they felt about the situation, world, which is good for democracy in this country. It we were surprised by their attitude. They said, “We live was interesting for those of us from the Government in a democracy. Those people have as much right to put party to test our thinking, not only against the Government’s their tarpaulin against the wall at the end of my garden ideas, but against those of the Opposition. as I had to put my house here.” Poverty is viewed The IPT takes a cross-party approach, but the interaction differently in India from the embarrassment that we feel between parties on the delegation—I am sure it happens over it in the UK. It is important for us to understand on every such delegation abroad—was really productive, such aspects of different cultures. In turn, it is important not only for democracy generally, but in the interests of for different peoples to understand what makes us tick developing better policy in the House, which is good. and why we do things the way we do them. The hon. Member for Southend, West made a detailed From my experience of giving back organisations in contribution on the industry side of the exercise, but I the UK and India, I believe that such work could be want to concentrate on two aspects in which I have a co-ordinated more effectively. There might not be such personal interest: education and what we in this country a role for Government, although there could be one would call charity. The Indians do not like the concept for the Department for International Development, but 173WH India12 MAY 2009 India 174WH there might be a role for organisations such as the enhanced view of the UK and stronger affinity for it. In British Council. They must try not to systematise or this day and age, that is important for diplomacy and in control the work, but to ensure that efforts from this sorting out the world’s problems. If we influence our country are directed more cohesively. That brings me to friends from other countries positively and understand education. what they have learned from their experiences, the world My interest is in education, training and skills, or can only be a better place. work-based learning as we now call it. I was invited to deliver a paper to an international conference in Kerala 10.18 am and Delhi. I visited Delhi just before I met up with the IPT delegation in Mumbai. I was surprised to find that Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold) (Con): I am although thinking on education, training and skills in delighted to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Sheridan. our country and among our Government is well developed, I congratulate you on your participation in the Chairmen’s we have much to learn from India. I was surprised at the Panel. I believe that this is the first event that you have co-operation between the Congress Government and chaired. It is a delight to follow the hon. Member for the communist-run state of Kerala. We can learn from Eccles (Ian Stewart). I hope that he will find a way to the ability of autonomous states to run education policy continue to serve in the House after his seat is abolished cohesively alongside the national Government. at the next election; it would be a great loss to the House I found that there is excellent potential not only for if he did not. UK educational institutions to invest and do work in I have limited time and will start by describing a India, but for us to learn from the experiences in Indian conversation I had with an unknown lady on the way to education at federal and state levels. That taught me a India. She attacked me verbally saying, “Why is this wider lesson about industry, which other colleagues parliamentary delegation going to India? Is it not just a might comment on. Although our initial motive was to junket and a waste of taxpayers’ money?” When I ensure that we as parliamentarians understood the concerns assured her that it was not costing her anything as a and aims of British industry in India, it became obvious taxpayer and that it was absolutely vital for Members of that we had a responsibility to encourage Indian investment Parliament to get out around the world and interact into the UK. Therefore, it is proper for us to look to the and network with people in important countries such as interests, needs and requirements of Indian investors, India, she started to calm down. too. One conclusion that I reached from the visit was that, unlike after my previous visit to India in the early ’90s, I Mr. Sharma: I must declare an interest because I am have come back as a friend of India and the Indian from India originally. I came here more than 40 years people. India is a fantastic country. It is huge and ago as a young boy. I still have links with India and a diverse, and every statistic about it is mind-boggling, passion for its development. I am pleased to hear about but it is, nevertheless, a fascinating country. One of our the experiences that hon. Members have had recently interlocutors said to us that it lives in three centuries all and over previous years. at once—the 19th, 20th and 21st. Perhaps that sentiment I hope that hon. Members agree that there is a will have become clear by the end of my remarks. passion for migration among Indians. The passion is now not only for looking for jobs, but for investment, I must pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for education and the learning of skills. The major bar to Southend, West (Mr. Amess), who led the delegation that is our immigration rules and taxes, and how officers with great aplomb. He kept us all in order time-wise and treat business people and students who apply for visas in every other way, and he kept the whole programme or other ways of entering the country. Is it not time for running very well. I must also pay tribute to the team at us to look at the investment in Britain from the Indian the Industry and Parliament Trust—to Sally Muggeridge, subcontinent and adopt a more relaxed and flexible the chief executive, to Sarah Hutchison and to all the approach to visas and immigration policy? IPT staff—because the visit was organised fantastically well. Ian Stewart: I accept that wholly, but we must understand Given my role as Front-Bench spokesman for that there is an onus on the UK Government to act international trade and international development, I sensibly in relation to immigration. Acting sensibly tacked three days on to the end of my trip and went on must include the flexibility that my hon. Friend suggests. a Department for International Development visit. I We must encourage the maximum number of students pay great tribute to Emma Spicer, the deputy head of possible to come to the UK from, in this case, India. DFID, who organised my trip to Pune, and to Michael There is not only an educational, but a political imperative Anderson, the head of DFID India, who accompanied for doing so. me to slums in Kolkata and to Sunderbans—a swampy I will conclude with this point because other hon. area on the Bangladesh-India border. Above all, I pay Members wish to speak. It became clear to me, and I tribute to the redoubtable Shanatu Das, who turned out am sure to other delegates, that although there is much to meet me at 11 o’clock on a Saturday evening at the to blame the UK for in Indian history—we are blamed airport and could not have been more helpful throughout for certain things—there is much that Indian people the entire three days of my DFID visit. love about Britain. The hon. Member for Southend, There are an awful lot of people to whom I need to West mentioned bureaucracy, legal systems and education. pay tribute, but suffice it to say that it was great fun to In general, there is a special place for the UK in the be with my colleagues and particularly to have the hearts of Indians. benefit of our two peers, as others have said. We had a Education gives not only expertise and skills: the comprehensive visit, and it is difficult to name and more Indian people who are trained and educated in the thank everybody, particularly those who briefed us UK, the more Indian people will return to India with an before we went to India and while we were there. 175WH India12 MAY 2009 India 176WH

[Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown] I am marginally critical of the way in which we operate in India regarding trade, and I think we could Among others, they were Virgin, Reliance Life Sciences, do a much better job. It has already been pointed out Hindustan Unilever, Yash Raj Studios in Bollywood, today that not one of our four UK Trade & Investment which has been mentioned, ALMT Legal, Tata, Bombay representatives in Chennai has any business experience. Stock Exchange, HSBC, BAE Systems, Shell, KPMG, In Pune, where I went, which is the fastest emerging Cadburys, GKN and Supreme. Now one can begin to second-tier city—India has 20 second-tier cities with see how many visits and what an action-packed programme populations of more than 1 million, of which Pune is we had. I must say to the Minister that our high the fastest growing—we have only one UKTI representative. commissions in all three cities that I visited—Chennai, We need to clarify the role between UKTI and UKIBC— Mumbai and Kolkata—were incredibly helpful. the UK-India Business Council—because there is some muddle as to who does what. There is more scope for What have I learned from the visit? I think that clarity in terms of trade, and there are huge opportunities people in this country do not realise what a diverse of which we need to take advantage. country India is, or how well liked the British are there. I could not get over the fact that, everywhere I went, the This has been a highly informative debate, and I am people were so friendly towards the British. English is a delighted to see that the right hon. Member for Makerfield universally spoken language; it is the language of (Mr. McCartney) has now joined us. His contribution administration and trade, and I feel that the closeness to the visit was huge, as a former Trade Minister, and we between our two nations, despite our historical past, is benefited from his knowledge. It is great to see him here, amazing. In every sense, we are fostering links—whether and I shall conclude very rapidly if he wants a couple of trade, cultural or educational—and we must do much minutes in which to speak. more in that respect. India has 1.2 billion people, which Mr. Ian McCartney (Makerfield) (Lab) indicated assent. is 17 per cent. of the world’s population, and the number is growing. Some 70 per cent. of the population Mr. Clifton-Brown: In conclusion, we had a highly are living on less than $2 a day, 70 per cent. of the informative visit, for which I am enormously grateful to population are under 30 years old, and the average age the IPT and DFID. There is huge scope for increased is getting younger. It is a vibrant nation that is growing cultural and educational links with India, and there is at 7 per cent. a year. even greater scope for us to do more trade with India. It is a fantastic nation, which is emerging very fast. It is India still has huge potential in terms of its needs for beginning to help itself to get out of poverty and all the education. Some 65 per cent. of the nation are educated, other deep-seated problems that it has. The more that but that includes only a small proportion of people in its finances grow, the more that it will be able to help some states. DFID is taking a very brave decision itself get out of poverty. We have seen some excellent regarding its expenditure in India. It spends £270 million corporate social responsibility work from all the firms a year in India, which is more than in any other country that I mentioned, which are doing great things throughout in which it operates, and it is going to pull out of West India to help some of the poorest people in the world. Bengal, where there is 20 per cent. poverty, and concentrate Statistics on the average proportion of poor people in a instead on the four states with the greatest needs—Uttar country show that India is still poorer than sub-Saharan Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Orissa and Bihar. Bihar is Africa. I am grateful to all those who organised the trip, an incredibly poor state, with over 50 per cent. poverty, and I now conclude so that the right hon. Gentleman and people trapped by the Dalit caste system and the maysayafewwords. 47 per cent. literacy rate, so there is a huge amount of work to be done there. Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Order. This is breaking What have I learned? On the day that we heard the with tradition, but if no one else objects, we will allow statistic that British manufacturing has contracted by the right hon. Member a minute to make a contribution. 0.1 per cent., which is the largest fall in one month since 10.28 am records began in 1948, here we have a country with enormous potential for trade. We learned that India has Mr. Ian McCartney (Makerfield) (Lab): First, let me a highly developed educational system, which is now apologise to the Chamber. I had intended to come and translating itself into producing some of the best research contribute today. I thought that the concept of the visit, in the world, and India is applying that research into the work that we did there and the follow-up work producing highly innovative goods. However, there are brought out the best in British parliamentarians. It is enormous dangers. We visited GKN and found that it crucial that, in the next few years, India is not seen as a was making medium-tech half shafts for cars of the partner of the past, but a partner of the future. We are same quality that would be made here but for half the all children of the Commonwealth, not of the empire, price, and one wonders why GKN would continue to and there is a huge emerging nation of technological manufacture in this country. That is an enormous danger advances, pharmaceutical industries and other technology for us, because how are we going to continue to provide industries. It has an ability, within that region, to work jobs in the future, when a country such as India is as with us as a partner on trade, trade investment, education, competitive as that? It behoves all those in Government cultural issues and its role in the wider world in relation to think about that very carefully. The answer is that we to peacekeeping and the United Nations. have to get cleverer and smarter at what we do. We have We have a huge agenda. The work we did as a group got to educate our people better; we have to give them in India built bridges and contributed towards potential better innovative skills and better research; and we have and actual projects. Now we have come back, we must to help our companies to apply that research better, report to the Indian high commissioner on the work otherwise we are going to sink further and further down that we are doing and the contacts and re-contacts we on the world stage. have made with companies, universities and colleges. 177WH India12 MAY 2009 India 178WH

The Northwest Regional Development Agency, for example, In terms of an overall impression, India has obviously has already made contact with some of the colleges that grown rapidly—by about 8 or 9 per cent. each year since we met and has sat down with them to do pro-active 2003, although that is slightly dipping now. Wherever partnership working. one goes in India, it is apparent that it is a country of Some of the businesses in India have been put in contrasts: between rural isolation and urban sprawl, touch with businesses in the United Kingdom to consider lavish riches and people who are literally dirt poor, and how they can work together. As Members of Parliament, an economy driven by a vast array of young people, we have since made contact as a group with individual who also have a huge respect for wisdom and old age. It organisations to build on what we have seen, particularly is a dynamic and bustling country and the sheer energy in relation to corporate social responsibility. We can of it nearly knocks one down. There is a sensory overload learn from the ideas and work that has been done in of colours, noise and smells— particularly in a city such India in terms of trade and development, education as Mumbai. Most of all, India comes across as a and training, health care and rural communities, and country that is keen to innovate and has entrepreneurial the empowerment of women and children. For me, it spirit. That is why it is clear that it is not only a key was a fantastic opportunity. I am grateful to the group global power now, but that it will only grow in influence for assisting with the debate, which has allowed us to in the years to come. participate with colleagues of different political persuasions. I want to share what I thought was one of the most We may be different politically, but we were at one on inspiring visits, which was when we went to see the the group in relation to the work that we need to do sheriff of Mumbai, Dr. Indu Shahani, who is a formidable, with India across the field. forceful and friendly woman. She is very positive and I apologise again, Mr. Sheridan, for not being able to embracing, and is indeed, I suspect, a strong role model give a more comprehensive report, but I will put something for other women in the city. By profession, she is a in writing for you as the Chairman. Colleagues and I teacher so we met her at a college. With 50 per cent. of also hope to meet the Indian high commissioner soon the population under 25, education is vital for India’s to take forward the work that we did during our visit. I future development. Dr. Indu Shahani told us about a thank hon. Members for listening. scholarship scheme that was being set up with the university of Westminster to send four girls to London 10.31 am to study. A delegation of academics from the university of Westminster were in Mumbai on 26 November to Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): It is a pleasure discuss the scheme. They were to meet the shortlist of to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Sheridan, eight girls from which the final four would be chosen. particularly as it is your debut outing in the role. I am They were near the Taj hotel at about 10 o’clock at sure that it will be the first of many. I congratulate the night and they heard shots being fired just as they were hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Amess) on not leaving their meetings. There was obviously a degree of only leading the delegation, but securing the debate and confusion, but most of the delegation of academics was introducing it so comprehensively. However, one and a stopped from going back to the Taj hotel where they half hours is a short time to discuss something as huge were booked in to stay. Instead, they were taken to the as India—the world’s largest democracy—and I am homes of members of the Indian staff to spend the sure that we could easily have filled three hours, if not night. Sadly, two of the academics had gone on ahead more. and went back into the hotel just at the wrong moment. I thank all of those who created the opportunity for One of them was shot, although fortunately they recovered parliamentarians to visit India and see first hand the and are now fine. experience of British businesses in India and those Obviously, for an Indian college trying to put together Indian businesses that are having such an impact on the a scholarship scheme, it was hugely worrying that such UK economy.The Industry and Parliament Trust provides an incident would have a negative impact. However—this a vital link between business and Parliament. It was a speaks wonders about the university of Westminster fascinating and useful trip that greatly added to my and made me feel quite proud to be British—the university understanding of both business and India. said that, as a gesture of solidarity, it would extend the As mentioned by the hon. Member for Eccles (Ian scholarship scheme to all eight girls on the shortlist, Stewart), I speak on foreign affairs for the Liberal rather than just offer it to four. Indeed, two of those Democrats and, indeed, this was my first experience of girls came from the slums. That is an example of the India. I was particularly keen to experience that country type of work going on between India and the UK, and to widen my understanding of the foreign affairs role. A shows that it is perhaps in the most difficult moments little bit of me fell in love with India. I have visited that the friendship between the two countries is strongest. various countries and although India is often compared with China—both countries are talked of in terms of We were obviously in India to visit various businesses. competition and in discussions about growth—I, frankly, I was struck by the strong commitment to corporate found India much more inspiring. Many of the reasons social responsibility that others have mentioned. That behind that relate to the fact that India is the world’s concept seems to be much more ingrained in Indian largest democracy. The biggest difference between business than it is in many British businesses. Tata was experiencing China and experiencing India is the freedom perhaps most impressive in that respect. Its business has that individuals have. Both countries have huge problems, a long history of being part of the community, although but the ability of ordinary Indians to be entrepreneurial it has forthcoming challenges in terms of sustainability and dynamic comes across from when one lands at the issues and climate change. The launch of the Nano will airport to when one walks down the street. Indeed, that be followed by the Europa, which will be a similar also came across in all the meetings that we held. model with lower emissions launched in Europe. 179WH India12 MAY 2009 India 180WH

[Jo Swinson] 10.41 am

It was hugely helpful to have Baroness Coussins with Mr. Keith Simpson (Mid-Norfolk) (Con): I, too, us because she has a strong background in CSR. When congratulate you, Mr. Sheridan, on becoming a member we visited Hindustan Unilever Limited, it told us that of the Chairmen’s Panel, and also on having your debut its motto was, “Doing well by doing good.” HSBC in a relatively quiet and civilised debate. talked to us about its financial inclusion education I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for programmes, environmental sustainability and how it is Southend, West (Mr. Amess) on introducing this debate training women to be entrepreneurs. It used the words with such panache and on the fact that he obviously “corporate sustainability”, which might find their way was a good leader of the delegation. It is important to into the UK lexicon in relation to this matter. Corporate emphasise that it was a successful delegation. There is a sustainability is a different approach. It is not an add-on, caricature, certainly among the media, of all a public relations strategy or something that will simply parliamentarians as members of what I refer to as the look good in a glossy brochure; it is about the entire all-party surf and sand group, but it obviously did not way that a business operates its activities. apply in this case. When on a trip, the most striking things are not always found on the programmed activities; they are We had a debate in this Chamber about three weeks often found when one gets away from the scheduled ago on the Foreign Affairs Committee’s report on overseas meetings. Some colleagues and I went for a wander territories. There is another classic example of the work around one of the slums in Chennai. Frankly, watching of a group having a major impact. In fact, the Government “Slumdog Millionaire” does not prepare one for seeing of one of our overseas territories were, in effect, suspended that level of poverty. Walking past the chop shop where as a direct consequence of it. I congratulate all the they put different bits of cars together, I thought that if members of that Committee. it were in Britain health and safety would have a field I shall not reprise the comments made by Members day with what was left lying around the road, and, of who spoke with such enthusiasm about the visit of the course, there was no running water or sanitation. However, Industry and Parliament Trust to India, about what when we walked down the street, children were excited lessons could be learned, and about their hope that and talked to us—their basic English was quite good. Indian friends would look at their work and what they They have so little, but they are almost unaware that had done. Instead, I shall make two or three general they have so little. It is difficult to go through that points and perhaps widen the debate. experience without feeling a huge sense of guilt. That experience was for me very profound. It is apt that we are having this debate, because India Similarly, in Mumbai, we saw places that were basically is in the middle of its national elections. Before the first shacks with no sanitation. However, we then walked world war, it was common for elections in the United down the street and saw that a street party was going Kingdom to take place over several days, if not weeks, on. At such parties, there is a tradition of getting paste because of the problems with communications. It was and coloured dye and throwing it over everyone with possible for our predecessors to fight and lose a seat in, hilarity and joyfulness. There is a challenge in seeing for example, Manchester, and then move on to fight such intense poverty, but it is also inspiring to see the another seat a week later. That is what happened to the positive attitude that goes alongside that. That is one of British Conservative Prime Minister Arthur Balfour the things that will stand India in good stead. in 1906. Obviously, the UK has a history of close ties with In India, where polling is staggered over five dates, India. Indeed, that came through in a meeting with the election is still going on. There are 828,804 polling Cadbury, which is a historic brand in India. It has a 70 centres—imagine the sheer size of the challenge. Returning per cent. share—most businesses would be chuffed with officers have been murdered and voters have been that—of the chocolate market. I was intrigued to learn intimidated, but, nevertheless this largest democracy is that chocolate has to be made to a different formulation successfully carrying out a vast national election, and in India. A different level of milk fat is required so that we should celebrate that. It puts into context some of chocolate does not melt until it is at 35o, whereas the little local difficulties that we face in some of our apparently Cadbury chocolate in the UK melts at 28o. elections. That is an interesting fact that stuck in my brain. I want to touch on and perhaps expand briefly the The relationship between the UK and India has been comments made by hon. Members and hon. Friends important and will be important in the future, but we about British-Indian relations. I take the point that the need to guard against complacency and thinking that hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) we will always be close because of our long history. made at the end of her contribution. My friend the There are increasingly close ties between the United right hon. Member for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney) States and India as more and more young Indians go to rightly said that we are all children of the Commonwealth US universities to study. Indeed, it is often the older now, not children of the British empire, although that Indians who have a strong attachment to the UK. lies heavily on my generation. We should reflect on the History is not enough. We need to encourage more fact that modern Indian society is global. It looks to Indians to study here, which is why the activities in the United States of America, to China and to the India of the British Council, which we met, are so middle east. important. Coming back to the purpose of our visit, that is also why the activities of British businesses We should not downplay our links with India but we working in India and Indian businesses working in the need to take them forward. They are not something to UK are a wonderful way to integrate the two countries be put in a museum or regarded as a jewel in the crown, for our mutual benefit in the future. if I may use that analogy. We should also recognise the 181WH India12 MAY 2009 India 182WH fact that 349,193 visas to visit the UK were issued in votes in the world’s biggest democracy will begin on 2008, which was more than for any other country. The Saturday, and the new Government must be constituted number of contacts between people is enormous. by 2 June. The UK and India also have a vital and effective I question the implicit enthusiasm of the hon. Member partnership in countering terrorism. What happened in for Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Simpson) for elections over five Mumbai had an enormous impact on British public days. I know how exhausted I am knocking up for one opinion, and the Indians are some of the world’s leading day of elections. The thought of five days on the trot fighters against terrorism. We should celebrate our beggars belief. compatibility in economic affairs. Both countries have Whatever the outcome of India’s elections, I am strong service and knowledge sectors and traditions of confident that its commitment to the liberalisation of democracy, and both uphold the rule of law, which, as its economy will continue, because it genuinely understands all colleagues will recognise, is crucial to business and that opening up its economy will create a quantum leap investment. I was speaking to members of a delegation in its ability to attract foreign investment, accelerate of visitors from Hong Kong last week who emphasised much-needed infrastructure development and drive forward how important the rule of law is in getting investment in inclusive sustainable growth, which is critical to its Hong Kong. meeting its millennium development goals. I would like to emphasise the fact that India now We also look at India in the context of the current operates as a global power. It is a member of the G20, economic climate. India is not immune to global downturn; the World Trade Organisation, the G-77, and the United it no longer remains on the sidelines of the crisis. Nations Human Rights Council and, of course, it plays Growth is likely to fall to 4.5 per cent. in 2009, from the a crucial role in the Commonwealth. I see one part of 8.5 per cent. average of recent years. As a result, it is that in that I am one of the two parliamentary estimated that there will be an extra 9 million to 12 million representatives on the Commonwealth War Graves Indians living in poverty in 2009. Although 4.5 per cent. Commission. We must remember how important that might seem a high figure by our standards, for India to side of India’s history still is to Indian Governments achieve its millennium development goals and lift the today. I commend the work of the Indian high 456 million Indians who live on less than $1.25 a day commissioner and the Indian defence attaché. out of poverty, it needs to deliver sustained growth of at least 9 per cent. a year. That is a challenging factor. Finally, India has a crucial role in helping to resolve Unlike China, India’s population is getting younger, major international crises on its borders—not only the but India will be able to reap that demographic dividend ongoing problem with Burma but, of course, the conflict only if it makes substantial investments in its physical in Sri Lanka. We should recognise that India has provided and social infrastructure. In that regard, UK companies more than 55,000 military and police personnel to have a lot to offer and a lot to gain. United Nations missions in the past 60 years. In many respects, it has been the unsung hero of the United Since 1991, as many hon. Members have mentioned, Nations in resolving some of those issues. India’s gradual opening up to international trade has fuelled consistently high economic growth that has made I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, a real and substantial impact on people’s lives there. West on securing this debate, and all the hon. Members Now India is entering a new phase in moving up the on that visit to India on their obvious enthusiasm for value chain. Whereas the early years of its growth were strengthening British-Indian relations. fuelled by offshoring and low-cost, low-value service provision, the emphasis and focus now—this is the challenge to us that the hon. Member for Cotswold 10.47 am (Mr. Clifton-Brown) underlined—are on value-added, research and development-rich, manufacturing and services, The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth from groundbreaking new oncology treatments in the Office (Bill Rammell): It is a pleasure to be here for your pharmaceuticals sector to highly sophisticated knowledge first time as Chairman of a Westminster Hall debate, process outsourcing and world-class, innovative production Mr. Sheridan. I assure you that I will refrain totally in sectors as diverse as nanotechnology, animation and from any comments about Members of Parliament renewable energy. losing their virginity. I would like to respond to some of the points that To proceed, I genuinely congratulate the hon. Member have been made. I welcome the comments on our high for Southend, West (Mr. Amess) on securing valuable commission in India, which were made by the hon. parliamentary time for the debate, and I am pleased to Member for Southend, West, who led the delegation, have the opportunity to respond to the comments and and I will ensure that those congratulations are passed contributions that have been made. What has come back to it. He commented on the fact that the emerging across clearly this morning is a real understanding of economies have to be a priority for the Government and the commitment and hard work involved in fostering for this country, and I agree. relations. I noted all the comments about the hon. In 2006, UK Trade & Investment launched a five-year Gentleman’s dignity and leadership skills. I would have plan that refocuses more of our resources on the 17 key expected nothing less from a fellow Essex Member of emerging markets. In India, 86 UKTI staff are working Parliament. I also take this opportunity to congratulate in nine offices, which is an increase of 18 per cent. over the IPT on the exceptionally valuable work that it does the last couple of years. That is exactly the kind of not only in this area, but in many others. improvement that we need to make. As many Members have commented, this is an historic The hon. Gentleman also talked about India being a moment for India. Tomorrow marks the fifth and final young country and about the demographic dividend, day of voting in its general election. The counting of but that represents part of the challenge for India, in 183WH India12 MAY 2009 India 184WH

[Bill Rammell] The hon. Gentleman also raised the question whether the UK Border Agency staff who deal with visa processing that it has to upskill and educate that younger generation. are sufficiently aware of business trends and concerns. I He also mentioned the World Trade Organisation overview. would say that that is so. Training is available for all The Doha development agenda is important. We need a staff on all aspects of our visa process. Business visitors successful EU-India free trade agreement and a from India amount to 27 per cent. of the total and the development-friendly conclusion to the DDA, addressing UK Border Agency in India is meeting all its targets at India’s concerns on the special safeguard mechanisms the moment. in agriculture. That is at the forefront in respect of those As a number of hon. Members mentioned, globally, issues. we are second only to the United States in terms of The hon. Gentleman made an important comment overseas students, a significant proportion of whom are on the role of the British Council. In my former role as Indian. That demonstrates the progress that we are Minister of State with responsibility for higher education, making. However, I acknowledge that, as my hon. I was pleased to have the opportunity to lead the Friend the Member for Eccles (Ian Stewart) mentioned, UK-India Education and Research Initiative, which, in there has to be a balance between welcoming genuine a practical way, is bringing together UK universities visitors to this country and continuing to fight and and their counterparts in India for the benefit of both deter illegal immigration. We have to get that balance our countries. The British Council has been fundamental right. and critical in developing that initiative, and I have seen My hon. Friend spoke eloquently, revealing his personal the impact it has had on the ground. commitment to education and training and to the relevance The hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) of charitable support—or “giving back”, as he described intervened on the hon. Member for Southend, West to it—to India. That point needs underlining. Even with make a point about so-called EU protectionism. The the opportunities available and the progress that is EU is not protectionist, but we are rightly resisting being made in India, still a third of all the world’s poor Indian demands for asymmetry when entering negotiations. people live there, which is why it is the biggest recipient That is a sticking point at the moment, but the seventh of funds from the Department for International round of negotiations will resume on 13 July in Brussels Development. and I hope that those issues can be overcome. The hon. Member for Cotswold raised an important The hon. Member for Southend, West also mentioned issue about a woman he spoke to at the airport before the role of the British Council in twinning schools in going out to India. He is right. We have to underline the this country and in India. I have seen the real advantages fact that there is a crucial role for parliamentarians to of that and I welcome the fact that he has promoted have international awareness and international access. such an initiative in his constituency, because that broadens When I travel abroad as a Foreign Office Minister, I am the minds of young people in this country at an early struck by how such activity is built into the mainstream stage and builds a relationship and contact that is for parliamentarians in other countries. It is about beneficial on both sides. pursuing the national interest and contacts. We ignore such activity at our peril. I also take on board the hon. The hon. Gentleman also asked whether enough was Gentleman’s comments about the support that he received being done to get Indian inward investment in this from DFID. country. That is a priority for UKTI. Some 600 Indian The hon. Gentleman made some important points, companies have a base in the UK, of which approximately including about the fact that as India moves up the two thirds are in the information and communications quality and value-added chain, we need to recognise the technology and software sector, with the next significant fact that, to be able to continue to compete, we need to knowledge sector being pharmaceuticals. Those companies’ be smarter and need increased focus on education, investment is worth some £9 billion. The UK attracts training, innovation and research. He also criticised the around 50 per cent. of all Indian investment in Europe. expertise of UKTI staff, but that was unjust. We have We need to fight to maintain that figure and that appointed specialists in financial services and aerospace position. in India, and all senior staff there attend a rolling The success of Indian entrepreneurs in the UK is well programme of business developments visits to the UK known in India. India has entrepreneurial talent and is to develop their expertise in commerce. a priority market for UKTI’s global entrepreneurs My right hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield programme, which supports links between exceptionally (Mr. McCartney) made a brief contribution, but talented entrepreneurs and their counterparts in the demonstrated his real knowledge and experience as a UK. former trade Minister, and his commitment to our The hon. Gentleman will also be aware that Tata is a relationship with India. much-valued investor in the UK. Its acquisitions of I conclude by echoing the comments made by the Tetley, Corus and Jaguar Land Rover have helped to hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), secure many jobs in this country. In addition, Tata who leads for the Liberal Democrats. Our relationship Consultancy Services is a major employer in Peterborough with India is historic and well founded, but within any and elsewhere in the UK, providing more than 4,000 good relationship we have to keep working at it and jobs for people locally. We want that kind of relationship prioritising it. The Government are absolutely committed to continue. to doing that. 185WH 12 MAY 2009 Consumer Rights 186WH

Consumer Rights turned out that the eventual contract between the purchasers and the building company was with Holyrood Services Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): The Minister who will Ltd, not Elphinstone, with which they thought they had respond to this debate has been caught up in traffic and been dealing. will be approximately 15 minutes late, but arrangements On 20 February, matters moved on dramatically, and have been made for a Whip to take notes. the residents discovered that Holyrood Services Ltd had gone into administration, while Elphinstone had escaped scot-free from any liability, reducing the chance of a 11 am satisfactory outcome for the residents. The National Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/ House-Building Council became involved and, to be Co-op): I am grateful, Mr. Sheridan, for this opportunity fair, seems to be actively dealing with the problems, but to discuss consumer rights. I shall highlight three the residents are not certain whether all the outstanding constituency cases, in each of which an individual or issues will be dealt with because, for example, they group has been treated badly as a consumer, and then complained not to Holyrood Services Ltd, as they should suggest how each problem might be dealt with. They have done formally under the terms of the NHBC are very different, and there is no common theme, but guarantee, but to Elphinstone, the parent company, this is too good an opportunity for me not to raise which seems to have walked away from the problems. issues that have caused me and those constituents great That experience highlights three issues. First, there concern. Although there is no common theme, I shall are clear questions about the way in which Elphinstone conclude by making some general comments about and seems to have been able to escape its responsibilities suggestions for improving consumer protection. using a front company, Holyrood Services Ltd. That The first issue that I want to cover is the problems happens in areas other than building, but I would like a frequently faced by people who buy newly built houses request to be conveyed to the Minister that his Department from a developer. I raised the issue first in a debate in urgently investigate the circumstances in which builders—in April 2002, less than a year after I became an MP, and this case, Elphinstone—are apparently able to evade again just over a year ago in February 2008. The problems their responsibilities by using a subsidiary. Will the may be numerous and include lengthy failure, sometimes Minister investigate whether that arrangement is legal, over years, in getting snagging work completed; dates of and whether his Department can take any action in this entry being delayed time and again; serious defects, case? such as flooding, not being dealt with; problems with property management companies, and so on. I will not Mr. Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): I go into all of them in full detail this morning as I have congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. covered them before. Will he clarify whether Holyrood Services Ltd is a construction company, or a factoring company? The particular problems that I want to raise this morning were highlighted for me in the case of the Mark Lazarowicz: I understand that Holyrood Services Corinthian Quay development at Granton harbour in Ltd is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Elphinstone, the my constituency, to which I referred at length during my builders, and not a separate property management or debate in February 2008. There were water supply problems, factoring company. It seems to be Elphinstone in another sewage coming through floors, and external finishes guise, but the eventual contract and deed of conditions and areas not completed. I will not go into all the was with Holyrood Services Ltd, although the preceding problems, except to say that some of them were first material had come from, and many of the subsequent reported by residents in early 2005 but have still not dealings had been with, Elphinstone. been dealt with. The second issue is wider, and relates not just to the After I highlighted the specific case of Corinthian Corinthian Quay development, but to the long-running Quay in my previous debate, there seemed to be some issue of how purchasers may assert effective rights movement. Two senior directors of the development against builders who do not fulfil their side of a bargain. company came to my office and promised action. For a Owners may in some circumstances have the right to while, things seemed to improve, but that did not last cancel a purchase if defects have arisen, but that is often long and residents told me that the situation deteriorated not an effective remedy if people have sold their existing again. Earlier this year, on 20 February, there was a house and moved job, and would have to get involved in dramatic development. My constituents discovered that lengthy litigation to try to cancel the contract. the company from which they thought they had bought their houses and would receive after-sales service was There have been five such developments in my not Elphinstone, but its wholly-owned subsidiary, Holyrood constituency. The one at Corinthian Quay is the worst, Services Ltd, even though all communication with residents but there are others. One problem is that owners may be had been from a company going by the name of able to pursue good legal avenues, but may be fearful of Elphinstone, and its name was on all the sales and entering what may be very expensive proceedings against marketing boards around the site. The original seller’s a large and powerful opponent. My constituents have brochure made no reference to Holyrood Services Ltd, found that no independent body can provide even initial but referred only to Elphinstone, saying that over 10 years free advice, and there is clearly a gap in the representation it had built up an enviable reputation for its ability available to consumers. I will return to that, but I hope consistently to initiate and manage high-quality residential that the Minster will address the matter today, or write projects. All correspondence seemed to come from to me in due course. Elphinstone, as did the packs given to would-be buyers. The third matter concerns NHBC cover. In the particular Indeed, my correspondence was with Elphinstone and case in my constituency it now seems to be doing a good not the mysterious Holyrood Services Ltd. However, it job in actively trying to sort out the problems that it has 187WH Consumer Rights12 MAY 2009 Consumer Rights 188WH

[Mark Lazarowicz] Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold) (Con): I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has looked at the ABTA inherited. However, through no fault of its own, but website. I would be interested in his comments on its because of arrangements under which it operates as a credo, which is at the top of its website: backstop for problems with developments, it could become “For more than 50 years ABTA and its Members have been actively involved only at a fairly late stage in the process helping holidaymakers to get the most from their travel plans”. because residents must first go through a number of It refers to “Great Service”, stating: other steps. Is there a way of encouraging the NHBC—I “Because ABTA Members follow our Code of Conduct, you’ll understand that it is an industry body—to have a more receive a high standard of service, fair terms of trading, and clear proactive role in such cases, perhaps with a mediation and accurate information.” or ombudsman role at an early stage, to try to persuade What does the hon. Gentleman have to say to that developers to deal with problems such as those that my credo? constituents have suffered for far too long? The second issue is very different, but also involves Mark Lazarowicz: I am sure that it is true in many, consumers thinking that they have bought something many cases, but the problem is that in this case it was from one company, only to discover that they have not what happened to my constituent and his family. bought it from another, connected company, as a result My constituent did not have that pleasurable experience, of which they lose protection. The issue concerns a and ABTA seemed to have managed to wash its hands holiday in Mallorca booked by one of my constituents of any involvement, which to me is unacceptable. and his elderly parents. I do not have time to go into the As I said, when the Minister wrote to me, he suggested details of what was wrong with the holiday. Basically, it that my constituents raise the issue with ABTA, but was the holiday from hell, and it was made worse they have done so without any joy. He also pointed out because the facilities were entirely unsuitable for a person the possible legal avenues open to my constituents, and with a disability, which one of the parents is, even indeed there are some, but just as in the case of my though my constituents had made it clear when booking unfortunate constituents at Corinthian Quay, it is not the holiday that they needed an appropriate hotel. so easy for individuals to make use of those rights. Particularly when it comes to package holidays, legislation As I said, my constituents had many problems and is often complex and the consumer may not be able to the upshot was that they wanted to claim compensation pay for the legal backing to assert their claim against a from the company with which they had booked the powerful company that will want to exploit the complexity holiday—First Choice. At least they thought that they of the regulations to its advantage. had booked the holiday with First Choice; after all, they bought it from a shop calling itself a First Choice There is a shortage of legal and other information hypermarket. Their correspondence, when they complained, resources to help consumers in their battles with those was with First Choice. However, when they started to who have sold them faulty goods or offered poor services. complain, it turned out that the contract was apparently A strong customer advocate needs to take up that role. not with First Choice, but with a subsidiary company—First From my experience with the bodies that do have that 4 Hotels. Although First Choice is bonded with the role to an extent—such as trading standards, which is Association of British Travel Agents, apparently First 4 excellent, if I may say so, at Edinburgh council, or Hotels is not, so when my constituent complained to Consumer Focus—it is not their role to be an advocate ABTA, it said that it could not do anything about the in respect of particular cases in the way that is needed to problem as First 4 Hotels was not an ABTA company. help consumers in the circumstances that I have described. Somebody needs to be encouraged and empowered to That appears to me to be a complete abdication of do that. Perhaps the way to deal with the issue is to give responsibility by ABTA. It seems clear that the company support to some of the non-governmental organisations arrangements in this case have the effect—whether by to take up the role. Perhaps the Minister can address the design or not, I cannot say—of allowing First Choice to issue in the consumer White Paper, which is expected wash its hands of complaints made by customers by shortly. He may be able to say something about that saying that the arrangements are with a different company, paper also when he replies to the debate. even when the customers believed that they were booking I cannot pretend that my final issue has any real with an ABTA-bonded company. I believe that ABTA connection with the previous two, but I would like to should investigate this case and withdraw its endorsement address it briefly as I have the Floor to do so. I am sure from any travel company that appears to make use of that hon. Members are familiar with what are called subsidiaries in a misleading way, as certainly seems to look-alike websites. Such a website appears to be from a have happened with First Choice in this case. If ABTA governmental or other public agency, but in fact is not. is not prepared to investigate or take action, I urge the It may be designed to mislead the consumer, the member Minister to do so. of the public, into parting with money in some way or When the Minister wrote to me on the issue a few otherwise getting involved in something that the consumer weeks ago, when I first raised the problem, he invited did not wish to be involved in. my constituents to raise their complaints with ABTA, Last year, I raised in questions with one of the but as I have pointed out, they have already tried to do Minister’s colleagues an official-looking website to which so, only to be met with the response that ABTA cannot a constituent had logged on and paid money to get a get involved because they did not book their holiday birth certificate. She paid more than twice as much as with an ABTA company. The whole point is that the she would have if she had gone to the official website. holiday was in effect with an ABTA company. In my She got her money back eventually, after a number of view, ABTA should not be able to get out of its complaints. That company was not bogus: apparently, responsibilities as a trade body in that way. people would get their document if they paid the money. 189WH Consumer Rights12 MAY 2009 Consumer Rights 190WH

However, it was charging two or three times more for The Office of Fair Trading reports that 3 million documents that were easily available from public websites people a year fall victim to scams using post, text and or other public sources. e-mail. With the credit crunch, the scammers’ target has There has been some publicity recently about credit become some of the most vulnerable people in our advice websites—an issue on which I know the Office of society. Although we do not want to take a nanny-state Fair Trading has been active. Those websites give the attitude to protection and regulation, it is clear that impression of being linked to bodies such as Citizens such unfair practices must be sorted out. Advice, other credit advice agencies or, indeed, Government Departments. I am pleased that the OFT has taken Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): I wish that I some action to try to deal with the websites in recent could have made a speech, but I have to attend a months. meeting. Is my hon. Friend aware, however, that the A website to which I want to draw attention today protection available to consumers who make purchases because it has recently been raised with me by one of from salespeople who come to their property—the salesman my constituents represents itself as providing an opportunity might have come to see them after they answered an for members of the public to obtain the European advert—is far weaker than that available to those who health insurance card—the EHIC. A website whose make purchases over the internet or by post? If the address, I believe, is www.ehic.org is one that people salesman comes to their property, consumers no longer who do a search are referred to. People can go to that have the right to cancel their order if the goods are not site and pay a much higher price than by going to the what they expected, although they would have that official NHS website. I draw attention to that case right if they purchased the goods over the internet or by because it is one of many.I understand that the Government mail. The problem often impacts on vulnerable people. cannot totally control bogus or scam websites that are A salesman from Willowbrook, which provides recliner set up not necessarily from this country, but from many chairs, visited an invalid in my constituency, who ordered other parts of the world. However, the issue should be some chairs. When the chairs arrived, they were not of monitored closely. the right dimensions and did not provide the therapeutic In relation to the website that was providing genuine effect that the customer thought they would. However, Government certificates but at a higher price, the response she could not cancel the order and get her deposit back, that I received from Ministers here and from the Scottish because she had ordered from a salesman who came to Justice Minister, to whom the matter was also referred, her house. I wonder whether my hon. Friend can work was in effect that not much could be done about it. with the Minister to see whether this egregious loophole Although I accept that not much might be able to be can be remedied. done about it in many cases, the Government and Government agencies should be proactive in trying to Lorely Burt: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that monitor the growth of such websites. Where they can example. The answer to her question is that I was not take action to shut them down, they should do so. aware that there was less protection for someone who Where proceedings can be taken against individuals orders from a salesperson at the door. I hope that the who are misleading the public, they should do that. The Minister will specifically address the issue, because that Government should at least ensure that people cannot loophole clearly should not exist, particularly given that get documents through those websites, thereby driving door-to-door salespeople often target more vulnerable the websites out of business. people with their sales patter. That concludes my tour of consumer affairs problems. We have all been told that we have won a prize draw They are all different, as I said, but they highlight the and that we have to send a fee to get the money. When ways in which consumers can be misled and prevented we read the small print, however, we see that we are only from obtaining adequate redress. They emphasise the being entered into the draw. We have all had e-mails need for the excellent legislation introduced by the saying that we have won a foreign lottery prize, but Government in this area to be accompanied by effective anyone who takes up the matter—I have not—discovers means of allowing the consumer to make use of it. I that the prize does not exist. We have all heard of the hope that by raising the subject today, I have not only entreating e-mails from Nigerian business people who highlighted cases affecting some of my constituents—I cannot spell and who need our help to get a large sum hope that the Minister will be able to investigate those out of the country. We have also heard of boiler room in detail—but highlighted issues that need to be addressed, scams, with cold callers offering shares and property because we all know that when it comes to scams, investments, which might exist, but which are usually shams, bogus websites and bogus activity, it is a moving wildly overvalued if they do. target—we have to keep moving to try to catch up with Another trend is the increase in pyramid selling. The what is going on. I hope that by drawing these matters practice is illegal, but it is thriving, especially on the to the House’s attention today, I have contributed to the internet, and the credit crunch makes it particularly debate about how we can tackle these important issues. tempting. Bernie Madoff is one example. Ponzi schemes are widespread, and one in my area of Birmingham 11.19 am targets women, telling them that they can make £21,000 Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I congratulate the hon. in weeks. Pyramid selling is already illegal, but we need Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith (Mark a lot more consumer awareness, particularly among Lazarowicz) on introducing this important debate. He vulnerable groups who do not realise what is involved. has three bees in his bonnet, but lots of other bees are The hon. Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith buzzing around on all sorts of consumer protection mentioned builders, and everyone probably knows issues, and I want to address some of those issues in somebody who has fallen victim to cowboy builders addition to the hon. Gentleman’s points. who have done a job that is incomplete or of insufficient 191WH Consumer Rights12 MAY 2009 Consumer Rights 192WH

[Lorely Burt] ABTA should take more responsibility—it cannot be a fair-weather friend. It is hugely important that the issue quality. If the consumer pays the bill, there is, as the is addressed. hon. Gentleman said, no redress and no incentive for Another issue about which we have had a lot of the company to come back and make good the work, complaints in Solihull is mobile phone contracts. The which should have been done properly in the first place. contract details look good—in fact, they look great, One lesson that I recently learned at the hands of a with cash back and all sorts of other offers—but the builder is that people should never pay the final sum small print ties people into long contracts with the same until they are completely satisfied. phone. The cash back never materialises unless people A constituent ended up with a bill of £30,000 for a meticulously pay the relevant amount on the exact day. new drive. The builder kept finding more little jobs to In 2007-08, Consumer Direct received more than 100,000 do, saying, “I’ll just do this for you,” and my constituent complaints about mobile phone contracts. The terms of ended with a huge bill. I intervened. Trading standards those contracts and all other credit contracts should be said that everything was perfectly legal, but the threat of made clear and understandable. Perhaps an organisation being exposed by an MP had some effect, and my should have the responsibility for scrutinising small-print constituent did not end up paying the whole amount. contracts; if they are not up to scratch, they should not be legally valid. Businesses are not exempt from scams, including free Mark Lazarowicz: The hon. Lady is giving very good listings in business directories, which however mean advice, which applies to many builders, but will she deal that a company unwittingly signs up to pay for with the situation that I highlighted of people who advertisements in bogus charitable publications, hard move into new properties? They do not have the option selling and grossly overpriced goods. of retaining the money, because they have to pay to get into the property. They then have the problem of dealing There is also, of course, the problem of companies with any difficulty, but they have no easy way of forcing going into liquidation, described by the hon. Member the builder to do so quickly. for Edinburgh, North and Leith. There is an answer that we could use simply and cheaply to expose serial liquidators of all kinds in business: a requirement for Lorely Burt: I listened carefully to what the hon. the director of a company that goes into administration Gentleman said about new build. As he said, the national to register in a centrally kept register of administrations. house builders body is supposed to deal with the issue, Someone thinking of supplying or being supplied by a but the time and energy involved in getting redress on company could go to the register to see how many times behalf of properties’ new owners is totally inappropriate. its directors appeared there. That would be a simple way Will the Minister tell us how the situation could be to help companies that might lose their livelihood because more appropriately and speedily dealt with? of the cynical financial manipulation of bumping a A constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for business and going on to create another. Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) was a victim of an We can welcome two things this morning: first, the internet scam after he ordered a mini digger from eBay. consultation on the European consumer credit directive, When all the paperwork was done, it was agreed that which has many good elements, including a general there would be a five-day trial. He thought that he was clause on defining unfair practices. Secondly, as the giving the money to the eBay solicitor, and everything hon. Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith said, we was documented. He paid £5,900 and was told that the can look forward to the White Paper on modernised digger was being shipped, but it never arrived. According consumer rights. We do not want to stifle innovation or to eBay, the problem was nothing to do with it, because bring about a nanny state, but somewhere in our consumer the payment did not go through its approved system. regulation, there should be a principle of basic fairness, which should not be contravened. The European Commissioner for Consumer Affairs, Meglena Kuneva—apologies to her if I have pronounced As my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park her name incorrectly—said that the privacy rights of (Susan Kramer) mentioned, we need protection with internet surfers are abused by companies that amass respect to door-to-door salespeople and the time allowed personal information and supply it to advertisers that for goods to be returned. We also need the register of target consumers without their knowledge. I loved the administration for serial liquidators, and better consumer quote from her in which she said that advice, especially about communications media such as the internet, particularly for young people who buy “the World Wide Web is turning out to be the ‘world wild west’”. things on the internet and discover, if those things are Again, this is a serious problem, and we need to address faulty and do not reach the required standard, that they it in what are changing times in the area of communication. are not confident about getting redress. The hon. Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith mentioned holidaymakers and a company acting as a 11.33 am front for a more well-known company, which then takes Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold) (Con): As I no responsibility when things go wrong. I am sure that said in the previous debate, it is a great pleasure, the Minister will have some comments to make about Mr. Sheridan, to serve under what is I believe your first how that can happen. chairmanship in this Chamber. It is also good to see the My concern is about holidaymakers who book their Minister; and I congratulate the hon. Member for holidays themselves. When things go wrong, they are Edinburgh, North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) on the not covered by ABTA. The hon. Gentleman talked very reasonable way in which he put across the problems about First Choice and First 4 Hotels, and I agree that in his constituency involving dealing with a property 193WH Consumer Rights12 MAY 2009 Consumer Rights 194WH company at Corinthian Quay, the holiday company, against him? That is the difficulty for consumers. No First Choice, and look-alike websites. I want to deal doubt, the hon. Member for Richmond Park will contact with all three problems in the brief time available to me. the Minister if I am not correct. I am also pleased to follow the hon. Member for Solihull The hon. Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith (Lorely Burt). raised an important subject: the Corinthian Quay Of course, consumer affairs is a tremendously broad development in his constituency, the parent company, term, covering all interactions between the entities that Elphinstone, and the fact that the subsidiary company consume—principally, the general public and small providing the building contract, Holyrood Services Ltd, businesses—and those that supply, which are often large went into administration. That continues to be a problem firms. There is quite a lot going on, both by way of in the building industry, because of the recession, among Government changes and, as the hon. Member for other things, and the fact that many building companies Solihull said, through the European consumer rights have difficulty in making ends meet. People make quite directive. We welcome the merging by the Government, a number of complaints about the buying of new homes. on 1 October 2008, of Energywatch, Postwatch and the I declare at this point that I am a fellow of the Royal National Consumer Council, to form a new statutory Institution of Chartered Surveyors. I have a few general consumer watchdog, called Consumer Focus. The new comments to make about the purchase of new properties. organisation fights to secure a fair deal for consumers The purchase of a property is not subject to the Sale throughout the United Kingdom. It has the right to of Goods Act 1979 or the Supply of Goods and Services investigate any consumer complaint, provided that it is Act 1982, which cover the majority of purchases, and of wider interest to the public, the power to conduct consumers are left without adequate protection in a research and the ability to make an official super-complaint high-value risk field. At present, most regulatory protection about failing services. It would be interesting to hear is aimed at sellers rather than buyers. Since the Consumers, how the Minister feels the new, merged organisation is Estate Agents and Redress Act 2007 came into effect on doing, particularly as there is now such a narrow focus 1 October 2008, which I welcome, every residential in the ownership of the energy markets. Some accusations agent selling property in the UK must be registered with have been made of cartel activity in the energy markets an approved redress scheme. As estate agents act principally and energy pricing, particularly in relation to fuel poverty. for the seller, the buyer has relatively little redress under The hon. Member for Solihull referred to the consumer the scheme. Although estate agents are not obliged to rights directive, which the current European Commission tell buyers every last detail about the property—they is considering, although it will of course probably have are, after all, making a sales pitch—they must answer to be put through by the new Commission when that is buyers’ questions accurately and to the best of their adopted, probably in November. For the record, the ability. proposal represents the most far-reaching change for We have a list of typical complaints, to which the European consumer law to date. It brings together four hon. Gentleman alluded, which broadly fall into the existing pieces of community legislation—on unfair following categories: time taken to finish a building; contract terms, sales and guarantees, distance selling misdescription or misrepresentation of the property or and doorstep selling—into a single horizontal consumer area; the contractual process after the exchange of rights directive. It would be interesting to hear whether contracts; inability to gain access to snag the property the Minister feels that the legislation on doorstep selling before completion; quality of finish on moving in and indeed deals with the points raised in an intervention by the time taken to come back and rectify the faults; the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Susan Kramer) absence of customer care; no legal right to damages or about the differences between guarantees affecting doorstep compensation, even if major problems with the property selling and selling on the internet. cause significant disruption or loss of amenity; and dissatisfaction with the actions of the National House- The Minister for Trade, Development and Consumer Building Council—however, when I had a complaint Affairs (Mr. Gareth Thomas): I should perhaps have about one of my own properties, I found that the intervened a little earlier in response to the query by the NHBC could not have been more helpful. hon. Member for Richmond Park (Susan Kramer). My In July 2007, the Government announced an increased understanding of the legislation on doorstep selling is target of 3 million new homes to be built by 2020, so we that it offers the same right as in any other case to reject will probably get even more of those types of complaint. goods if they are not as they were described. The It is incumbent on the Government to see whether doorstep selling law also gives people a seven-day cooling-off consumer protection is adequate in that area, particularly period after the making of the agreement, in which to in the light of the hon. Gentleman’s remarks. cancel it. I hope that that will deal with the concern The hon. Gentlemen mentioned a company in his raised by the hon. Lady; but if she or any other hon. constituency, First Choice, and the role of the ABTA, Member taking part in the debate has further information which is the industry regulator for the holiday sector. It or concerns about the working of the provisions, I shall publishes a code of conduct that requires, among other be happy to discuss them in more detail. things, tour operators and travel agents to provide consumers with relevant and accurate information to Mr. Clifton-Brown: That clarification is helpful. The help them make choices on their holiday and related problem with the legislation is enforcement. We all products, including insurance. However, as the hon. know about fly-by-night doorstep sellers, and although Gentleman probably knows, in 2006, ABTA lost its I am wary and would not expect to be sucked in by such Government seal of approval after it reduced the amount a salesman, many people are; if those people receive of financial protection that it offers holiday makers: the faulty goods, how do they know who the salesman was? organisation that represents the majority of UK travel How can they find him again and enforce any law agents and tour operators will no longer refund tourists 195WH Consumer Rights12 MAY 2009 Consumer Rights 196WH

[Mr. Clifton-Brown] in Estonia for weeks after the deployment of new and sophisticated software, such as the so-called storm worm. who have been sold non-existent holidays by fraudulent Some threats to personnel and to commercial and national agents. The Office of Fair Trading has stated that, given security are known to exist. Much of that cyber crime that change to ABTA’s code of conduct, it cannot back feeds on cyber carelessness and companies underestimating the revised scheme because it does not offer the same the risk. financial protection to consumers. The Government need to take aggressive, intelligent Current trends in the holiday market, as reported by and persistent action against those threats, but some ABTA members themselves, show that 68 per cent. of commentators have said the Government’s approach to people are prepared to increase their holiday budget the increased threat of cyber crime lacks co-ordination, this year and that the average spend on holidays this focus and urgency. Perhaps the Minister ought to look year is expected to be £600 per person. However, despite to the United States, which has had its Internet Crime the number of people willing to spend their money, Complaints Centre, IC3, for seven years. It was established even during the economic recession, there appears to be as a partnership between the FBI and the National an issue—I would be grateful if the Minister addressed White Collar Crime Centre. IC3’s mission is to serve as this point—and indeed a legal loophole whereby ABTA a vehicle to receive, develop and refer criminal complaints members can subcontract the provision of travel insurance, regarding the rapidly expanding area of cyber crime. which is not unusual in itself, to non-ABTA members Those are just some of the large number of areas who do not subscribe to the code of conduct. Therefore, relating to consumer protection. The hon. Member for someone who thought that they had bought insurance Solihull raised other areas—it is a big field. New scams to cover the failure of their holiday could suddenly find are coming along all the time, and it is impossible for that they were insured with a company that would not any Government regulatory authority always to be ahead provide for that. That allows for the provision of insurance of the game, but I have no doubt that clever people are that does not provide the same information or that looking at all those things. There used to be an insufficient supplies reduced cover. number of technical people within the enforcement I have already quoted from ABTA’s website, but it agencies to keep ahead of the game, so we now need to would be interesting to give hon. Members another ensure that we have some of the best people in IT and in quote from it: other skills to counteract those increasingly widespread “As you can see, it’s not always easy to know whether your scams. The problem is that they are now not only money’s safe when booking a holiday or other travel arrangements. domestic in the UK, but tend to have a world-wide You should always ask when making your booking. If your reach. Information gained, as the hon. Lady said, through arrangements aren’t automatically protected, ask if your travel credit card and banking scams means that large amounts company can offer you an insurance policy that will protect your of money can be shifted around the world merely at the money. ABTA has arranged a policy specifically for this—the touch of a button. I do not envy the Minister, because ABTA Protection Plan—which is available to buy through most ABTA Members.” he has a huge job to do, but it would be interesting to hear his views on some of the issues raised today. As I have pointed out, there is probably a legal lacuna in that, which the Minister will need to look at carefully. The third subject that the hon. Member for Edinburgh, 11.47 am North and Leith mentioned was the cloning of Government The Minister for Trade, Development and Consumer websites and lookalike websites. Many Members might Affairs (Mr. Gareth Thomas): I congratulate my hon. have seen the horrific story reported by Matt Warman Friend the Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith in The Daily Telegraph on 6 January 2009 about a fake (Mark Lazarowicz) on securing the debate and on how Government website: he campaigns on consumer issues more generally. I also “The site looks identical to HMRC.gov.uk, using the same welcome the interest shown by my hon. Friend the graphics, fonts and styling, and is being used to gather web users’ Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington names, addresses and credit card details. Once the information (Ms Abbott) and the hon. Member for Richmond Park has been obtained, the site then redirects people to the real (Susan Kramer), as well as the chance to follow the HMRC website. Many victims have no idea that they’ve been contributions made by the hon. Members for Solihull conned until alerted by their banks. The fake site, set up from Denmark, has been recruiting users by sending a spam email, (Lorely Burt) and for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown). reminding people of the impending tax deadline on January 31, Even in this relatively short debate, a series of issues and then directing them to what appears to be a legitimate link. has been raised, and I will try to do justice to at least The page that comes up, however, is not the real HMRC.gov.uk.” some of them. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, That seems to be a horrific scam, and the Government North and Leith—I apologise for missing the start of need to take it very seriously indeed. Having lost large his remarks—raised a series of specific constituency amounts of data, the Government need to reassure the cases, not least some of the problems with new homes. public and the consumer that data on Government Some of his constituents have found it hard to assert websites is secure and that there is a clear way of their rights because the firms that built their houses knowing whether those sites are genuine. The penalties perhaps contracted out responsibility for completing for that type of cloning should be severe when proved. the work to subsidiaries. There is a related issue of counter-espionage cyber One of the issues that we are concerned about is the attacks on both Government and commercial computer continuing high number of complaints about home systems in Britain, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, improvements and the completion of work by those India and the USA, and they are though to have probably who operate in that sector. Year on year, Consumer originated in the far east. Such an attack caused a cyber Direct continues to report high levels of complaint in riot that shut down banking and Government websites that area. That is one reason why I wish to bring 197WH Consumer Rights12 MAY 2009 Consumer Rights 198WH together key players in that sector—for want of a better Advice. Action was taken in the pre-Budget report to phrase, to hold a home improvement summit to consider make further funding available for debt advice, and the scale of the problems and what further collective agencies can bid for additional money. There is a series action might be taken to improve the experience of of extra advice surgeries, and surgeries are being opened consumers. for longer or at more convenient times. Further debt As my hon. Friend knows, whether specific action advice is being provided through citizens advice bureaux can be taken depends upon the particular circumstances as a result of Government action. of the case. However, I would be happy to have a further conversation with him if he wanted to explore [MR.MARTYN JONES in the Chair] whether anything else could be done to help his constituents. A number of hon. Members raised the issue of scams, My hon. Friend also mentioned First Choice holidays. either on the internet or simply through the activities of I hope that he will understand when I say that I cannot rogue businesses and more generally. Some hon. Members comment on individual cases at this stage. His concerns will know that, following the introduction of a series of about the ABTA code of practice were echoed by a pilot scambuster teams, we have rolled out the model of number of other hon. Members. From what I have regional trading standards officers working with other heard about that case, it seems that a package had been enforcers to all parts of the United Kingdom. purchased. That is significant, because rights under package travel regulations may enable civil action to be So far, that approach has led to 19 successful prosecutions, taken to secure redress for those consumers who have with an estimated saving to consumers of more than lost out. Again, we are dealing with specific circumstances £3 million, and £2.5 million-worth of criminal assets in that case, and I would be happy to discuss them in have been seized. Clearly more needs to be done, but more detail. although many of the scambuster teams are relatively new, they are already bedding down and making a I turn to the other matter raised by my hon. Friend— difference. misleading websites. The Government recognise that there has been considerable concern of late about misleading The hon. Member for Solihull raised the question of websites, particularly those that appear to be similar in mobile phone contracts. I am aware of the considerable design to Government sites or debt advice agency sites. concerns that arose last year, some of which continued New protections in law protect consumers from unfair into this year, about the complexity of mobile phone commercial practices, should misleading statements cause contracts, the difficulty of judging one service against consumer loss. Those regulations have strengthened another and whether cash-back and other contracts protections—for example, introducing a general duty were being honoured. The hon. Lady may not be aware on traders in all sectors not to treat consumers unfairly. that Ofcom has taken action. Indeed, Consumer Focus, They came into force in May 2008, and they prohibit the new body to which a number of hon. Members unfair marketing practices, both online and in the high referred, has also prioritised some of its work, putting street. If the attention of the Office of Fair Trading or pressure on the mobile phone industry to get its act trading standards officers is drawn to specific cases, together. We will continue to watch for progress. Given action can be taken. the huge concern expressed by the media and the House, we hope that the industry will realise that there is a I shall give an example of such action being taken on spotlight on it and that it will continue to work to the question of misleading websites and debt advice. improve its performance. The OFT has recently taken action against firms posing as Government-endorsed or other sorts of official debt We are taking a series of other measures to provide advice service. The OFT has initiated action against 27 real help to consumers affected by the downturn—not websites, closed a number down and forced improvements only with the additional debt advice to which I alluded in how others present themselves. The OFT is working in response to the intervention from the hon. Member closely with Citizens Advice and other consumer for Cotswold, but in dealing with some of the emerging organisations to monitor what is going on in the sector practices that we have seen, such as in the credit card and will continue to take action to shut down rogue industry. We also realise that we need to help consumers websites. not only by cracking down on rogue businesses, but by helping to deliver a level playing field for reputable Mr. Clifton-Brown: The Minister mentioned one businesses—the vast majority in the UK—that do not enforcement agency and one advice agency—trading want their relationship with the consumer to be undermined standards officers and Citizens Advice. In my constituency, by the rogues. although I suspect that it is a national problem, council New markets have developed in recent years, particularly budgets are being squeezed. The budgets of trading on the internet, which may lead to a need for changes in standards officers and consumer advice centres are therefore how regulations are introduced and managed in the being squeezed. As a result, they are becoming less UK. effective, particularly in the enforcement work of trading standards and the debt advice of citizens advice bureaux. Mr. Clifton-Brown: The Minister is being generous in Will he consider that question carefully, because I believe giving way. Does he recognise the final point that I that consumer protection is being weakened? made in my speech, which is that it is incumbent on all Government organisations to have people of sufficient Mr. Thomas: I have similar concerns, but responsibility expertise to be able to counter the growing world threat has to be taken by local authorities. They have to make of cybercloning and so on—people with IT skills and a judgment on the service required in the area. As the forensic accountancy skills? Such people need to be well House would expect, I always hope that local authorities paid, as they need the ability to counter such international will prioritise support for trading standards and Citizens scams. 199WH Consumer Rights 12 MAY 2009 200WH

Mr. Thomas: I accept in principle the point that the Police Crowd Control hon. Gentleman makes. We want to take action to increase our capacity to crack down on rogues—be they loan sharks, those perpetuating scams or those operating 12.30 pm on the internet. Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney, North and Stoke I referred to our additional investment in scambuster Newington) (Lab): I am grateful for the opportunity to teams, which are beginning to make a difference regionally. raise in this House the widespread concern over the We have also established regional illegal moneylending policing of the recent G20 protests and demonstrations. teams to target those who are often vicious thugs who Like many hon. Members, I have been on my fair share operate as loan sharks and target the most vulnerable of demonstrations and am well aware that police tactics members of our communities. Those teams have had are not always ideal. Since the days when I went on considerable success in bringing loan sharks to justice. demonstrations nearly every Saturday, we have seen the They not only take victims’ harassers to court and rise of the citizen journalist. Police tactics and activities prosecute them, but direct victims to more affordable are subject to scrutiny as never before. The video footage credit, be it in the form of credit unions, social fund and photographs of police crowd control at the G20 grants or loans, or support from debt advice charities. protests were shocking to many of our fellow citizens We have been aiming at a holistic response to people’s up and down the country in what could be called middle needs. England. Such people might never have been on a The marketplace in which consumers operate has demonstration and might not have believed previously been changing steadily as a result of globalisation, and what was said about police excesses. the hon. Member for Cotswold alluded to additional We have a right to protest, and I am well aware that work done in the United States. We recognise the need policing demonstrations and protests can be challenging to update and modernise our consumer law and for the authorities. From this Chamber we can hear the enforcement regime to reflect the internet era. With that drumming of the demonstrating Tamils outside. That in mind, over the past 18 months, my officials, at my demonstration has been going on for three weeks and request, have been reviewing the relevant consumer law has caused sensation, impact and inconvenience. None with a view to introducing a series of reforms. the less, however challenging the citizen’s right to protest In particular, we recognise the need to improve internet may be, it is that right that separates free western enforcement. Many of the issues discussed today will be democracies such as ours from totalitarian regimes reflected in the consumer White Paper, to which my such as Iran, North Korea and other despotic Governments hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, North and of whom we are often critical. Leith alluded, and we are busy working on those, although The Independent Police Complaints Commission is hon. Members will forgive me if I do not reveal the full investigating four charges against the police in relation contents of the White Paper at this stage. to the G20 protests. A police officer hit Nicky Fisher and knocked the back of her legs with a baton when she Lorely Burt: Will the Minister comment on my suggestion complained. An unnamed man and a 22-year-old woman of a register of administrators to help businesses seeking claim that they were assaulted. There is also the tragic to trade with other companies to assess the risk-worthiness death of Ian Tomlinson, which caught public attention of such trade and to establish whether there might be the most. I remind hon. Members that as well as those any serial liquidators? That suggestion was made to me four specific IPCC investigations, there have been 256 by an industry body and I have mentioned it a number complaints to the investigatory body. Members of the of times in Parliament. Will he take it into consideration? press and the public have raised many concerns about the conditions that protesters were subjected to as a Mr. Thomas: I shall consider the hon. Lady’s suggestion result of the kettling technique and the heavy-handedness when working on the White Paper, but, if she will with which the police broke up groups of peaceful forgive me, I make no promises. protesters. With that, I again congratulate my hon. Friend the Before I speak about the events of that day, I draw Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith on securing the House’s attention to the way in which our right to the debate, and I look forward to the opportunity protest has been curtailed through legislation over the presented by the consumer White Paper to continue decades. The Public Order Act 1986 gave senior police today’s conversation. officers the power to impose conditions on a protest. Under section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000, senior 12.3 pm police officers can grant stop-and-search powers to Sitting suspended. other police officers to search anyone. Although ostensibly directed against terrorism, section 44 powers have been used against protesters. Famously, police officers used section 44 to prevent my Labour party colleague and the well-known activist, the elderly Walter Wolfgang, from re-entering the Labour party conference in 2005. Section 50 of the Police Reform Act 2002 allows the police to demand the name and address of anyone whom they believe has acted in an antisocial manner. Failure to provide that information is a criminal offence. It is therefore a criminal offence to fail to give a name and address when stopped on mere suspicion of committing a non-criminal act, but it is not a criminal offence to fail 201WH Police Crowd Control12 MAY 2009 Police Crowd Control 202WH to give that information when suspected of a criminal Kettling is coercive: people are not allowed to leave offence. In other words, the legislation imposes a more once they are cordoned off and contained in that way, onerous regime on protesters than exists for people who whether they have children to collect from school or are suspected of criminal acts. have parents waiting for them—no matter what. Another problem with kettling is that it goes on for hours. People Under the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003, ASBOs are not only denied access to food and water and not can be issued against anyone who displays behaviour allowed to move around, but they are denied access to that is likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress. toilet facilities. Former Met officer John O’Connor has ASBOs have been given to peaceful protesters. The been quoted as saying, about kettling: Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 restricted protests in the vicinity of Parliament. Bit by bit over the “Instead of sending snatch squads in to remove those in the decades, serious pieces of legislation have curtailed our crowd who are committing criminal offences, they contain everyone for hours. It is a retrograde step…it is an infringement of civil right to protest. Overall, they have tended towards an liberties.” atmosphere in which peaceful protest is criminalised. That is the context in which we must examine what I believe that kettling is wrong because it is indiscriminate, happened during the G20 protests. coercive and, ultimately, punitive. If we, as a society, defend the right to peaceful protest, why should we A number of hon. Members have raised concerns punish people by keeping them penned up for hours about the way in which the police hyped the threat of and hours, as at the G20 protests, when they have violence in the days leading up to the G20 protests. The committed no crime? That punishment was doled out Metropolitan Police Service seemed to focus on how to a very large group of people on 1 April without any violent the protests would be. My hon. Friend the clear evidence that the majority of that group had any Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore), the Chairman of intention of turning violent or disorderly. The use of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, commented at kettling and the punitive nature of that technique have the time that the hyped-up talk of violence from the caused a lot of concern not only among the people who police ran the risk of putting off peaceful protesters and were demonstrating on that day, but among the general of being confrontational to all protesters. Some of us public, observers and even some members of the police. feel that even before the day of the protests, the police As I said, the IPCC is investigating four alleged had heightened the atmosphere and given the impression incidents of assault following the G20 protests, but I that they were in a combative mode. That was not the want to focus on the tragic death of Ian Tomlinson. He right way to prepare for a day of peaceful protests. Of was a newspaper vendor who was working on the course the police had to put the right mechanisms in newspaper stand on Fish Street hill on the day of the place and needed the right number of officers to be G20 protests. During his walk home, he encountered available. However, the rhetoric of the police in the days police officers on three occasions. First, he was reportedly leading up to the protests alarmed me and other hon. manhandled out of the way of a police van by four riot Members. police officers. The use of the kettling technique, by which hundreds of people are hemmed in for hours in one place, has Mr. Martyn Jones (in the Chair): Order. I must warn been raised with me. That technique was first used in the hon. Lady that we are straying into sub judice areas the May day protests about nine years ago. The kettle is here, because there is a court case involving Ian Tomlinson essentially a pen in which protesters and others are that we are aware of. It is the consideration of the trapped by lines of riot police on all sides. Once the Speaker and the Procedure Committee that we should crowd is caught in the pen, the idea is that people avoid discussing sub judice matters if possible. If the should be let out slowly and dispersed. The police may hon. Lady keeps her remarks general, that will be fine, take each person’s photograph and contact details before but I warn her not to stray into the details of the case. letting them out. That is presumably so that they can be identified later. Ms Abbott: I am grateful to you for those comments, The police might argue that kettling is peaceful and Mr. Jones, but you will appreciate that it will be impossible appropriate if it minimises the danger of damage to to talk about the policing of the G20 protests without property. I have been in contact with a number of mentioning Ian Tomlinson. people who went to protest peacefully at the G20 protests, A number of general issues arise from the case of Ian including women and people who took their children. A Tomlinson. It is alleged—I can go no further than number of things are troubling about the kettling technique. that—that he encountered the police on three occasions. First, it is indiscriminate. The police might pen in a few It is alleged that he was manhandled on all occasions, people who are intent on violence—we do not know. We and that, finally, police officers followed him along the do know that during the G20 protests, hundreds of street—he did not, allegedly, charge the police lines—and people were caught up, including women and children, lunged at him from behind, striking him with a baton. It who were genuinely there for a peaceful protest. The is alleged also that when a member of the public called police will capture in that pen people who just happen 999 and spoke to the emergency operator, the operator to be walking past; people who are not protesting but asked to speak to the police officers, but they ignored who are looking at what is going on—men, women and the request. What is a matter of fact is that the first children; people who work in the area; and, as we know post-mortem took place on 3 April—two days after from the case of Ian Tomlinson, innocent people who Mr. Tomlinson’s death—and recorded that he had died are trying to make their way home. So, to contain a from a heart attack. minority of potentially violent or troublesome protesters—it is always a very small minority—the police end up containing hundreds of innocent people. Mr. Martyn Jones (in the Chair): Order. 203WH Police Crowd Control12 MAY 2009 Police Crowd Control 204WH

Ms Abbott: The post-mortem is a matter of fact, is it was assaulted by the police before his death—whatever not, Mr. Jones? the relationship between that and his death may be, which only the coroner’s court can reveal to us. It seems Mr. Martyn Jones (in the Chair): It is the coroner’s to me that both the Met and the IPCC went out of their case that is the problem, so I think we need to move on. way to dissuade journalists from investigating this issue properly. Mr. Tomlinson’s family are not alone in being Ms Abbott: What it is worth saying about the Ian grateful that journalists and interested observers were Tomlinson case, without venturing into the court case anxious to see the truth come to light and justice done or other areas that are sub judice, which Officers of the in this case. House are anxious that I should not do, is that there is That leads me to a point about the IPCC. I remember some concern about the discrepancy between the two campaigning, all through the ’90s and before, for a post-mortems. genuinely independent body to investigate the police. In case after case and campaign after campaign that I was Mr. Martyn Jones (in the Chair): Order. I am sorry, involved in, in London in the ’80s and ’90s, the issue but it is up to the coroner’s court to decide on discrepancies that always came up was how the police could investigate between post-mortems, so the hon. Lady should move themselves. I, along with many others, welcomed the on. setting up of the IPCC. Sadly, it has proved to be something of a disappointment. It seems to offer process, but no outcomes. Ms Abbott: All right. A number of general concerns arise from the Ian Tomlinson case, some of which I The Minister might remember the 1999 case of Harry cannot discuss in detail at this point, but one concern Stanley. He was a Hackney carpenter who had the that I can properly raise is the allegation that the police misfortune to enter a pub and have a drink while who allegedly attacked Mr. Tomlinson covered up their carrying a bag with a chair leg in it. He happened to be identification numbers. That issue has been raised not Scottish, but someone in the pub believed that he was only in relation to this case, but in relation to a number Irish and that the chair leg was a gun. Harry Stanley of police activities on that day. The Minister will be emerged from the pub and was gunned down in plain aware that the entire reason why police have ID numbers sight. The IPCC conducted an investigation into the is to enable members of the public to know who they matter, which I believe was wholly unsatisfactory. The are engaging with and, if necessary, to make complaints. fact remains that no policeman has been held responsible It is at the very least sloppy, and at the very worst for what happened to Harry Stanley. He had nothing to suspect, for the police deliberately to cover up their do with any crime, criminality or terrorism; he was a numbers when they go into operations that involve carpenter having a drink in a pub in Hackney. His only members of the public, particularly those that involve fault was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. controlling demonstrations. That is one issue on which I Ministers will remember the much delayed and much should like a response from the Minister. criticised IPCC report into the death of Jean Charles de The other general issue that arises from the death of Menezes. Again, he was a member of the public who Ian Tomlinson is the impression that was abroad that was in the wrong place— initially both the IPCC and the Metropolitan police were trying to avoid an investigation into the incident. Mr. Martyn Jones (in the Chair): Order. I am sorry to The initial reports that were given out made no connection interrupt the hon. Lady yet again, but the subject of the between his death and any interaction that he may have debate is crowd control techniques and we are straying a had with the police. The only reason the general public bit from that. got to know about what had happened to Ian Tomlinson was the existence of video tape that had been taken by Ms Abbott: I was trying to make the point that interested observers. It is clear to many of us that there something that emerges from the policing of the G20 would not have been a formal IPCC investigation had protests is the role of the IPCC. I was trying to show that video tape not been available and put online. What that the inadequacies of the IPCC in relation to policing happened to Ian Tomlinson—and, whatever happened the G20 have been reflected in earlier incidents. That is to him, only the coroner’s court can tell us—would have why I mentioned Harry Stanley and the de Menezes been completely swept under the carpet. Many of us case. find that very disturbing. In the case of the G20 protests, the IPCC waited Journalists were fed information that was not wholly several days before announcing its own investigation. illuminating, and were told that they were not allowed The IPCC denied that CCTV footage was available at contact with the family.In accordance with the information the protests when it was, and it seems clear that the only that journalists had been given, the initial news reports reason the IPCC moved to announce the investigation focused on the missiles that had been thrown at police was because the truth was being revealed online, on the officers, but eye-witnesses said that there were no missiles. internet and in newspapers. It is very relevant, when The Guardian has reported that it was repeatedly warned illustrating the failings of the IPCC in relation to this off, by both the IPCC and the police, from following the subject, to mention its history hitherto. story, and that it was told that the family were extremely In the aftermath of the protests, the Met police upset at its coverage of the case. Other journalists have released their report of the event entitled “Policing of said that the IPCC told them that there was nothing in the G20 summit 2009”. The report claims that the Met the story that Mr. Tomlinson had been assaulted. It is police were unable to communicate with protest leaders, now clear that the family are very happy with the but protesters have said that they found the police coverage, which has shone a light on the truth, and, of unwilling to talk to them when they approached them course, it is true that it is alleged that Mr. Tomlinson prior to 1 April. The report claims that kettling was 205WH Police Crowd Control12 MAY 2009 Police Crowd Control 206WH engaged only after protesters became violent. The protesters Mr. Malik: I am always happy to give time to my say that the main protest was peaceful until they had hon. Friend and I would be happy to oblige her in been contained for hours and hours. relation to that. I have received many letters from constituents who Some of us have personal experience in this area, so were involved in the protest and were concerned about we know that all in the garden is far from rosy. I was police behaviour. One constituent tried to leave the first arrested in 1988 on my 21st birthday, which I spent protest once the cordons were put in place and asked a in Southwark police cells, during a “grants not loans” police officer if she could leave. She was told that she demonstration. Hon. Members will be pleased to hear should have stayed at home in the first place. That that I was acquitted at Horseferry Road magistrates. seems to reflect the coercive and punitive nature of That was my first experience of the police and it was a some of the policing of that protest on 1 April. rude awakening—but just from those police officers involved, not the police as a whole. The director of Liberty, Shami Chakrabarti, says: My next engagement with the police was in 2001 “Few would argue against proportionate interferences with when I was arrested and hospitalised courtesy of the that right to protect people and property. Yet the past 15 years have so blurred the lines between civil, public order and anti-terror police during the riots in Burnley. On that occasion, I powers that we risk turning constables (whose traditional role was was not charged and I later received an apology. I know to keep the peace) into bouncers charged with shutting down that things can go wrong, but it is my belief, and I think demonstrations.” the fundamental belief of most people, that the police Although the majority of police at the G20 demonstrations often have a difficult job to do, which, in the case we are did their best, I believe that the policing of those discussing, is balancing the right of people to demonstrate protests revealed the use of some very troubling tactics, peacefully with the security and safety of others. That is notably kettling, and a very troubling attitude on the why the Metropolitan Police Commissioner has asked part of some members of the police—not all or even the for the Independent Police Complaints Commission to majority. It also revealed something very troubling about come in. how the IPCC sees its duties. When we have the final I agree with my hon. Friend that, frankly, the IPCC’s findings of the coroner’s court in relation to Ian Tomlinson, predecessor was a joke. I experienced its predecessor. I I do not believe that they will necessarily reflect favourably had an officer from the same constabulary investigating on the policing of the G20. other officers because of a complaint that was made. The IPCC is light years ahead. It is truly independent It is easy to demonise and stigmatise protesters and and my hon. Friend is wrong to say that it is not listened demonstrators. It is easy for middle-aged Members of to, because, following Stockwell, many of its Parliament to forget the days when they were demonstrators recommendations were taken on board by the police and protesters too, but, however inconvenient, troubling and have led to fundamental changes. and challenging the right to protest may be, it is the fundamental role of this Parliament to defend the right Rather than focus on my prepared speech, in the few of citizens to protest peacefully and to draw attention minutes remaining I shall respond to some of my hon. to policing tactics and attitudes that infringe on that Friend’s points. She is right to talk about officers being fundamental civil liberty. identifiable. It is completely wrong and unacceptable for any officer to have their number covered so that they are not identifiable. The Met Commissioner, Sir Paul 12.55 pm Stephenson, and I believe that to be the case. My hon. Friend talked about how some of the legislation The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice in respect of counter-terrorism powers is used. I stress (Mr. Shahid Malik): As ever, it is a pleasure to engage in that it is our view that those powers should be used only debate under your stewardship, Mr. Jones. I congratulate in relation to terrorism and not in relation to anything my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, North and else. It is completely wrong for that to happen. Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) on securing an important With respect to the powers that exist in relation to and topical debate. This important issue has recently protests around Parliament, for information, that is attracted considerable interest. I have certainly listened something that we are looking at, and will be reviewing carefully to the points made and I shall try to deal with and repealing. The police message on the G20 summit some of them. stressed the risk of violence—my hon. Friend is absolutely These debates are never long enough. I have been a right—but it also stressed the right to lawful protest. Member of Parliament for four years and my hon. Unfortunately, only half that message seemed to get Friend has been an MP for 22 years, and I think that the out there through the media. The police were clear idea is that the Minister responds to the debate, but my about the fact that the coming together of a number of hon. Friend has left me with five minutes out of the 30, different groups heightened the risk of violence, but so perhaps my understanding is incorrect. they also stressed the commitment to facilitate lawful protest. We should not lose sight of the fact that there Ms Abbott: If the Minister is unable to respond to all was some violence on the day. It was minimal and we my points in the five minutes remaining, I am happy to should not lose sight of the fact— come to see him to hear what further remarks he may Mr. Martyn Jones (in the Chair): Order.Wehaveto have to make. move on to the next debate. 207WH 12 MAY 2009 Middle East 208WH

Middle East Hezbollah is committed to war against Israel. On 16 April, the leader of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah, was quoted thus: 1pm “I am against any reconciliation with Israel. I do not even recognise the presence of a state that is called Israel. I consider its Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): I am presence both unjust and unlawful. That is why if Lebanon pleased that we are having this debate today, and I concludes a peace agreement with Israel and brings that accord to thank Mr. Speaker for affording me the opportunity to the Parliament our deputies will reject it; Hezbollah refuses any discuss Hezbollah, Lebanon and the middle east peace conciliation with Israel in principle.” process at this important time. Hezbollah’s objectives and how it sets out to achieve The debate is timely, given the forthcoming Lebanese them threaten stability in the middle east and challenge election, which will take place on 7 June. We need to be the sovereignty of the Lebanese state. The violent clashes aware that a win for the Hezbollah-led March 8 Alliance that took place in Lebanon in May 2008 were triggered could have a destabilising effect not only in Lebanon, when the Lebanese Government sought to challenge but in the wider region, which is why I requested the Hezbollah’s independent military capacity. Government debate. moves to sack the Hezbollah-appointed head of security Before I speak about the political situation in Lebanon, at the airport and to close down Hezbollah’s internal I would like to say a little about the nature of Hezbollah, communications network were branded by Hassan its structure and its objectives. Hezbollah is a political Nasrallah as a declaration of war against the organisation. organisation with a strong paramilitary force that operates Hezbollah’s response was to engage in violence, which independently of the Lebanese state. It emerged in the brought civilian life into grave danger. The clashes that early 1980s to resist the Israeli occupation of southern took place resulted in the death of some 40 people and Lebanon during the Lebanese civil war. Its fighters were took the country to the verge of another civil war. organised and trained by a contingent of the Iranian Ultimately, Hezbollah seized west Beirut, which forced Revolutionary Guard. Even today, Iran and Syria are the Government into a humiliating climbdown and led its main sponsors, providing financial, political and to the Doha agreement of 21 May 2008, which resulted military support to the organisation. in the election of Michel Suleiman as the new Lebanese The deputy leader of Hezbollah, Sheikh Nairn Qassem, President after 18 months of political stalemate. stated in April 2007 that The Doha agreement was nothing short of a victory for Hezbollah. It secured the militant group a veto over “all policies including firing missiles into Israeli territories could not have been done without the consent of the leader of the Cabinet decisions and allowed it to maintain its weapons Islamic Republic of Iran. He has to agree to all Hezbollah’s arsenal as long as it was not used to resolve internal activities in advance.” political conflicts. That means that although the Lebanese Hezbollah is a proxy of Iran and is used by Tehran to Government may no longer be a target, Hezbollah can exert its influence over Lebanon and the eastern continue to build its weapons cache for use against Mediterranean. Israel in direct contravention of UN Security Council resolution 1701, which calls for disarmament of the The Hezbollah manifesto document produced in 1985, group. entitled “An Open Letter: The Hizballah Program”, The international community continues to voice concerns makes it clear that the organisation operates under one that Hezbollah is rearming and that weapons are being command structure and shares the same goals: smuggled across the Syria-Lebanon border, thereby raising “No one can imagine the importance of our military potential prospects of further conflict in the near future. I would as our military apparatus is not separate from our overall social like to ask my hon. Friend the Minister what discussions fabric. Each of us is a fighting soldier.” he held with the Syrian Government during his visit last Hezbollah does not have separate leaderships for its month on their political, financial and military support military and non-military work. The Jihad Council, for Hezbollah. I would also like to know what steps the Political Council, Executive Council and Judicial Council British Government have taken to encourage the Syrian all report to the Shura Council. In an interview with the and Iranian Governments to do more to prevent the Los Angeles Times published on 13 April, the deputy continued rearming of Hezbollah. leader, Sheikh Nairn Qassem, said of Hezbollah’s structure: Today, Hezbollah continues to maintain its military “Hezbollah has a single leadership. All political, social and capacity in direct contravention of UN Security Council jihad work is tied to the decisions of this leadership. The same resolutions 1559 and 1701, and in defiance of the UN leadership that directs the parliamentary and government work military mission UNIFIL—United Nations Interim Force also leads jihad actions in the struggle against Israel.” in Lebanon—which is mandated to oversee implementation The 1985 manifesto outlines the objectives of Hezbollah of the resolutions. as Hezbollah leaders themselves continue to maintain “putting an end to any colonialist entity”, not only that they are rearming, but that they are bringing the Phalangists to justice for acquiring more sophisticated military technology. UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon’s latest report, published “the crimes they had perpetrated” on 24 April, on UN Security Council resolution 1559 and establishing an Islamic regime in Lebanon. reiterates concern that Hezbollah continues to maintain In addition, Hezbollah leaders have made numerous a substantial paramilitary capacity and infrastructure, calls for the destruction of Israel. The manifesto makes separate from the Lebanese Government, along with a it clear that Hezbollah intends to use armed force to distinct telecommunications network. achieve its goals and frames its arguments in the language Those concerns were reiterated by Terje Roed-Larsen, of jihad. UN special envoy for the implementation of UN Security 209WH Middle East12 MAY 2009 Middle East 210WH

Council resolution 1559, when he addressed the UN a “significant change”in Government policy on Hezbollah. Security Council last Thursday: That same day, my hon. Friend, who has ministerial “The most significant remaining Lebanese militia is the armed responsibility for the middle east, gave evidence to that component of Hezbollah.” Select Committee in which he made it clear that the He added that it was Government were now exploring contacts with the political wing of Hezbollah. The Government have confirmed “a direct challenge to the sovereignty of the Lebanese State and a that that adjustment to policy was designed threat to regional stability.” The UN Secretary-General’s report is also critical of “to press Hezbollah to play a more constructive role politically and move away from violence.” Hezbollah’s actions in Egypt, citing the announcement made by the Egyptian authorities on 8 April that 49 The Foreign Office issued a statement on 5 March people had been arrested for allegedly being part of a verifying that, prior to that official announcement, our Hezbollah cell planning terrorist attacks in Egypt. ambassador in Beirut accompanied a group of Conservative According to Mr. Roed-Larsen: parliamentarians to a meeting with the Lebanese Foreign “Equally alarming was the fact that Hezbollah has publicly Affairs Committee on 9 January that was also attended admitted to providing support to Gaza-based militants from by Hezbollah Member of Parliament Ali Amar. Egyptian territory.” In response to a written question asking what criteria On 10 April, Hassan Nasrallah publicly acknowledged the Government use to distinguish between Hezbollah’s that the Egyptian authorities had detained a Hezbollah political and military wings, my hon. Friend stated: operative for attempting to provide logistical and military “The Government distinguish between those parts of Hezbollah assistance to Palestinian militant groups in the Gaza which are legitimately involved in Lebanese politics and those strip. It is thought that the operative was the ringleader who are actively concerned in terrorism.”—[Official Report, 31 March of the cell. 2009; Vol. 490, c. 1118W.] The US State Department’s annual report on terrorism, However, in an article that appeared on Hezbollah’s published on 30 April, highlights Iran and its proxy website, Hezbollah senior activist Omar al-Moussawi Hezbollah as lead sponsors of terrorism in the region. says that although the UK’s policy has changed, Hezbollah’s The report notes: has not. Hezbollah, he insists, remains an unchanged, “Hamas and Hezbollah continued to finance their terrorist singular and indivisible entity with no distinction between activities against Israel mostly through state sponsors of terrorism its military and political wings. He continues by saying Iran and Syria, and through various fund-raising networks in that Europe, the US, the Middle East, and to a lesser extent, elsewhere.” “today there is a tremendous openness toward Hezbollah, and The US State Department also notes that Hezbollah after a boycott that lasted for many years, Britain has announced has completely replenished its ranks, that it possesses a new openness toward Hezbollah and a dialogue with it… more short and medium-range rockets than it had before despite the fact that Hezbollah has not changed and still resists the 2006 war and that it has moved arms back into and refuses to recognise Israel. It is the other side— southern Lebanon. Perhaps most distressing is the fact —that is, Britain— that the report notes that London is one of the major financial capitals through which funds to Hezbollah are “that has changed, and retreated from its previous position”. channelled. I would like to hear from my hon. Friend As previously outlined, Hezbollah has not made any what steps the British Government are taking to ensure positive moves towards disbanding its militia, in accordance that such funding is monitored and stopped, and that with UN Security Council resolutions 1559 and 1701. UK banks are prevented from doing business with On 13 March, Hassan Nasrallah made it unequivocally proscribed sections of Hezbollah. clear in a speech that, despite the British move, Hezbollah Focusing on the internal Lebanese situation, the UN would not abandon its strategy of violence and terrorism Secretary-General criticised Hezbollah for stoking up and would never recognise Israel. It seems most peculiar an atmosphere of intimidation in the run-up to the June that the Government have pursued this policy change at election. We should not downplay the consequences a time when Hezbollah continues to arm itself, in breach and significance of a strong showing for Hezbollah in of UN Security Council resolutions. How do the the forthcoming election. The decision by the UN-backed Government reconcile their decision? Special Tribunal for Lebanon on 29 April to release My worry is that the only benefit so far of the UK four Lebanese generals who were held in connection Government’s policy shift has been for Hezbollah, which with the murder of the former Lebanese Prime Minister has used it for its own electoral propaganda in the represents a major boost for Hezbollah. run-up to the Lebanese election. Hezbollah’s electoral More significantly, a new electoral law has redrawn campaign has been boosted by the British decision, various districts in ways that may bolster Hezbollah at which was made despite the fact that, as outlined, the expense of the current coalition. An electoral gain Hezbollah does not distinguish between its political and for Hezbollah would represent a victory for Iran and its military wings. I therefore ask my hon. Friend whether long-term strategy of seeking to gain regional hegemony he would please list the benefits so far for the UK and through the promotion of a radical ideology and the the international community of the decision to engage application of political violence. It would also strengthen with Hezbollah and what benefits he believes there will Iran’s power in Lebanon and further blur the distinction be, going forward. between the Lebanese Government and the Hezbollah What contacts have been made with Hezbollah’s political parallel state. wing since the beginning of March? Will my hon. I would like to focus now on UK policy on Hezbollah. Friend commit to reassessing the Government’s approach On 4 March, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary to Hezbollah, should the organisation take any further wrote to the Foreign Affairs Committee to inform it of steps in the wrong direction? 211WH Middle East12 MAY 2009 Middle East 212WH

[Andrew Gwynne] improvements in Lebanon: the Doha accord, the election of President Suleiman, the formation of a national An opportunity to re-evaluate the UK Government’s unity Government and ongoing national dialogue and position will present itself after the Lebanese election, reconciliation. We wanted those things to happen and it when Hezbollah will have the choice either to continue would be wrong if we did not acknowledge that that has down the path of violence or to disarm and engage taken place. These promising developments are supported peacefully through non-violent means. Should it choose by a greater movement towards stability in the region. the former, the Government should actively reconsider Diplomatic relations between Lebanon and Syria, their policy of exploring contacts with any element of reconciliation between Syria and Saudi Arabia and the the organisation. Not re-evaluating that policy will allow recent reports of movement on the Israeli-occupied Hezbollah to continue to use UK recognition as a Ghajar farms will help to provide a supportive atmosphere means to legitimise its actions. Further, the danger is for the upcoming parliamentary elections. That is certainly that British policy could undermine Arab moderates in our hope and our intention. the region who strive for peace through non-violent means. The UK is committed to fair, democratic parliamentary elections and has been supporting that process through Hezbollah’s actions adversely impact on the internal projects costing almost £200,000. However, despite these politics of Lebanon. The organisation is intimidating developments there remain outstanding issues of deep the electorate and marginalising the Government’s concern, which my hon. Friend has mentioned: the sovereignty while flouting UN Security Council resolutions proliferation of weapons and armed groups and failure 1701 and 1559, which call on Hezbollah to disarm. to make concrete progress on issues, including the Israeli- Hezbollah also affects the stability of the wider region occupied Sheba’a farms and the situation in Palestinian and the middle east peace process. As admitted by refugee camps. Hezbollah, in particular, continues to Hezbollah itself, and spelt out in the UN Secretary-General’s maintain a substantial independent military capacity—my report, Hezbollah provides support to Palestinian militant hon. Friend mentioned that—and claims of more groups to strengthen their capacity to launch attacks sophisticated technology and news of developments in against Israel. Such actions undermine the Palestinian Egypt add to the urgency of resolving these issues. moderates, led by President Mahmoud Abbas, who are committed to a two-state solution. Our policy towards Hezbollah sits in the context of The international community should focus all its these improvements on one hand, and ongoing concerns efforts on empowering and strengthening the moderates on the other. But before I address that question, let me in the middle east—specifically in Palestine, Lebanon state clearly we have no illusions about Hezbollah. The and Egypt—who are committed to peace in the region. aim of our policy is for that organisation to change and It should not engage with those organisations that have for it to reject violence, disarm and engage constructively, entrenched, non-negotiable positions and which seek democratically and peacefully in Lebanese politics, in political change through violence. I therefore urge my line with UN Security Council resolutions. In order to Government to do all they can to engage with the new achieve this, our policy therefore has two strands. First, US and Israeli Administrations and the wider Arab and most importantly, we take a strong position against world in a process to build a comprehensive peace and any support for terrorism. In July 2008, we extended constantly to re-evaluate their position vis-à-vis exploring our proscription of Hezbollah from the external security contact with Hezbollah. organisation to its entire military wing. That was absolutely the right thing to do. It is fair to say that that puts us at I look forward to the Minister’s response. the tough end of the spectrum within the European Union 1.16 pm We continue to urge disarmament and to highlight The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth the destabilising effect of an independent militia in the Office (Bill Rammell): I am pleased to have this opportunity region. Most recently, we highlighted our strong concern to respond to my hon. Friend the Member for Denton at the UN consultations on UN Security Council resolution and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne). I congratulate him on 1559 when we argued that it was essential to tackle the securing this debate. On these issues his passion, proliferation of weapons and armed groups, with particular commitment, integrity and understanding are apparent reference to Hezbollah, to ensure long-term stability in to all who know him and came through clearly in his the region. We also discussed the issue with the President contribution. of Lebanon during his recent visit to this country. Lebanon and the middle east peace process continue to be an extraordinarily high priority for this Government, My hon. Friend asked about funding for Hezbollah as well being as a subject of great interest to hon. and allegations that funding comes through London. I Members in all parties in the House, particularly in the am sure that he and other hon. Members understand run-up to the Lebanese parliamentary elections in June. that because of the sensitive nature of the question, I The UK is strongly committed to stability in Lebanon am not in a position to confirm or deny funding of and the wider region. We signalled this commitment to Hezbollah in the UK, but I can assure my hon. Friend the President of Lebanon during his visit to the UK last that the UK is at the forefront of global action to month, where we emphasised that his role in providing combat the financing of terrorism. Terrorist financing constitutional continuity and promoting reconciliation is fully criminalised under the Terrorism Act 2000, and in Lebanon sets a positive example for the whole region. following a recent evaluation by the Financial Action Before I come to the specific policy on Hezbollah, it Task Force, the international body which sets the standards is important that it is set in its proper context. Since the for tackling money laundering and terrorist finance, the political vacuum of May 2008, there have been welcome UK gained more “fully compliant” ratings of its work 213WH Middle East12 MAY 2009 Middle East 214WH in this area than any other country assessed to date. partners, and calling on the Governments of both Syria That emphasises our real commitment to that crucial and Iran to cease their support for Hezbollah. During issue. my recent visit to Syria—my hon. Friend asked me Secondly, alongside that tough stance, we are exploring about it—I discussed the matter with Syrian Foreign the possibility of limited and considered contacts with Minister Muallem, and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Hezbollah’s politicians, and my hon. Friend referred to Secretary raised it with President Assad during his visit that. That means contacts only—I emphasise “only”—with to Syria in November 2008. We have serious concerns those members of Hezbollah who are legitimately involved about Iranian support for Hezbollah. Such support is in Lebanese politics, and not with those who are involved unacceptable, in contravention of the arms embargo in violence and terrorism. We are open to serious discussion established by UN Security Council resolution 1701, with Hezbollah’s MPs on the same basis as MPs from and serves only to undermine regional security. We are other factions in Lebanon. Hezbollah’s MPs have strongly communicating that message to the Syrian condemned violence and assassinations, and called for Government, as well as the Iranian Government, although calm and restraint in the run-up to the Lebanese the degree to which they have influence is still open to parliamentary elections. On 25 February 2009, the weekly question. meeting of Hezbollah’s MPs concluded that the Secondly, we have provided some £800,000 over two “circulation of a calm climate...and the contribution in controlling years to the internationally supported northern border and easing of tensions, is a responsibility to be shared by all pilot project, which aims to secure the border between officials, forces and reference authorities in all regions and by all Lebanon and Syria. On Lebanon’s southern border we confessions and sides”. are supporting the Lebanese Centre for Policy Studies We strongly welcome that, and have been pressing for with a grant of £100,000 over two years to increase such statements, but it must now be carried through UNIFIL’s capacity to manage, mediate and resolve into reality. Such contacts provide the opportunity to localised conflict with the communities of southern speak frankly and directly with Hezbollah politicians Lebanon. I saw some of that work during my visit to about the party’s wider actions that threaten regional Lebanon last year, and it is contributing to the way stability and the peace process. In doing so, we will gain forward. Through those policies, we aim to improve greater insight into their objectives and can pass on Lebanon’s security, to increase its sovereignty and to clear, firm messages seeking to influence Hezbollah’s work to achieve long-term durable stability in the region actions. That is an example of our strong, principled and beyond. diplomacy and engagement. It is important to emphasise—my hon. Friend did It is also important to put that change of policy into not raise this today, but he and other hon. Members context. To date, there has been only one meeting. On have raised it with me privately—that there is no read-across 9 January, our ambassador in Beirut attended a meeting from that policy to Hamas. Our policies must reflect the of British parliamentarians with the Lebanese Foreign specific circumstances of the Lebanese and Palestinian Affairs Committee. Representatives of all members of political contexts. We have no contact with Hamas, and the national unity Government were present, including we do not believe that it is productive to talk to it one MP from Hezbollah’s political wing, Ali Amar. directly at the moment. The Arab League has mandated During that meeting, our ambassador took the opportunity Egypt to communicate with Hamas. As long as Hamas to urge all sides to show restraint during the crisis in fails to subscribe to a two-state solution and fundamentally Gaza, and referred to the importance of them respecting to reject violence, it is difficult to see how it can be part the terms of UN Security Council resolution 1701. No of the solution. If and when the Palestinians form a further meetings have been arranged, but any future Government of national consensus, we will look carefully contacts will be carefully considered and decisions will at their exact composition and programme before making be made on a case-by-case basis. any decisions on engagement. As my hon. Friend and I have discussed privately, we are apprising ourselves of the new political situation in My hon. Friend asked for this debate on Hezbollah Lebanon and tentatively exploring step-by-step contact in Lebanon and the middle east peace process, and was with Hezbollah MPs who are not involved in and reject right to highlight the regional context and the importance violence. We are interested only in serious dialogue with of the process in the middle east. The Government are Hezbollah about issues of national importance to Lebanon fundamentally committed to pursuing a comprehensive and the region. We will avoid any engagement with peace based on a two-state solution. A comprehensive Hezbollah that causes publicity that might interfere approach to the middle east peace process will bring with the upcoming Lebanese election. I assure my hon. stability to the wider region, and political stability Friend that, as he has urged us to do, we will continue to throughout the world. That means developing a solution keep that policy under review and to take developments on the Israel-Syria track, addressing concerns about into account. Iranian intentions, and ensuring stability in Lebanon. My hon. Friend asked specifically about the distinction Within that, the international community has a hugely between which Hezbollah representatives we will and important role to play. We must redouble our efforts to will not speak to. Our distinction is between those who make a two-state solution a reality. My right hon. are legitimately involved in Lebanese politics and those Friend the Foreign Secretary made those points at the who are involved in violence and support for terrorism. UN Security Council yesterday, and we will continue to We will rightly take a pragmatic approach by speaking work with our international partners towards that goal. to known moderate political figures who, to the best of We are at a timely juncture in the affairs of the middle our knowledge, have no links to acts of violence. east. Some people are pessimistic, but there are hopes In addition, we are trying to improve stability in and opportunities. President Obama and the new US Lebanon and to prevent arms smuggling more generally Government are more committed to pursuing peace in in the region. First, we are working with our regional the middle east than any US Administration in recent 215WH Middle East 12 MAY 2009 216WH

[Bill Rammell] Private Rented Housing times. We must engage with the new Israeli Government and support the Arab peace initiative, and we need to 1.29 pm see some response from the Israeli Government, particularly Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I am grateful to Paragon on settlements. I hope that with support from the Mortgages, whose head office is in my constituency, and international community, we can drive the process forward to the Association of Residential Letting Agents for the and move from a debate about a middle east peace help that they have given me in preparing for the debate. process to a plan for implementation that can bring prosperity, peace and security for all. Private lettings have not always enjoyed the best of reputations, but the days of Mr. Rigsby are, if not gone I again congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this altogether, not a feature that we recognise as part of the debate, and on his commitment to the issue, which is general landscape today. Indeed, as an owner of two clear for all to see. multi-occupancy properties in the dim-and-distant past, I know how many constraints and rules apply to the modern landlord. The private rented sector plays a very important social and economic role in the UK, helping to meet housing demand throughout the country. It provides housing for 3.2 million households, representing 12 per cent. of housing tenures, according to figures from the Department for Communities and Local Government. It meets the needs of both those wanting long-term accommodation and those requiring more flexibility. The Government’s national housing and planning advice unit reported last year that buy-to-let has significantly increased the size of the private rented sector and helped to keep rents low. Those landlords are still comparatively small and lie at the heart of private rented sector provision. Three quarters of landlords are private individuals and couples, according to figures from ARLA. Only 10 per cent. are private companies. Julie Rugg’s review of the private rented sector for the DCLG recommended that Government policy should help good landlords of all sizes to expand their portfolios. She stressed that that should include smaller landlords as well as larger ones. I look forward to the Government response to the Rugg review, which is expected later this week. Driven by social and demographic change, the private rented sector now plays an important role in the UK housing market. Landlords have been able to respond to local patterns of demand effectively and efficiently. They offer locally managed responses to local needs. Institutional investment has been mooted by Government in the form of the private rented sector initiative, which offers institutions interested in the sector an opportunity to invest on a large scale and for the long term. We expect more details of that scheme to come forth as part of the Government response to the Rugg review. However, it may not be the best or at least the only way to increase supply in the sector. The economics may not stack up. Suitable returns may not be made, given the illiquid nature of housing assets and the additional costs with institutional structures. Julie Rugg notes that small-scale landlords inject a great deal of uncosted sweat equity and do not factor in the time that they spend managing their properties, in contrast to larger institutional landlords with higher management costs. Social housing has not kept pace with the UK’s demographic changes. There has been a consistent decline in the provision of local authority social housing since the 1980s. The private rented sector has helped to fill that gap. Social housing accounted for 25 per cent. of stock in 1991 compared with 18 per cent. in 2007, according to DCLG figures. 217WH Private Rented Housing12 MAY 2009 Private Rented Housing 218WH

The majority of the growth in the private rented fell to 0.3 per cent. in the fourth quarter of 2008. sector has been funded by buy-to-let mortgages. The Figures released last week by Moneysupermarket show number of units in the private rented sector grew from that the number of buy-to-let mortgages available has 2.45 million in 2000, to 3.2 million in 2007, coinciding fallen in two years by 95 per cent. with a significant growth in buy-to-let lending. I want What are the consequences? The absence of buy-to-let to talk about where the funding comes from for this finance for investment in residential property has serious sector. The sector was the mainstay of specialist lending, social consequences. At a time when people are looking especially for landlords operating in the private rented to the private rented sector to meet their housing needs, sector. the absence of funding has meant that the sector cannot Specialist non-bank lenders have played an important expand to meet that demand. Landlords’ appetite to role in the growth of, and improving standards in, the borrow remains. Considerable funding for the private private rented sector for more than a decade. The number rented sector has come from the non-bank sector, but of new loans for buy-to-let house purchase grew from that sector is now severely constrained and little new 85,000 in 2002, to 183,000 in 2007, but funding constraints finance is coming in. Specialist non-bank lenders have meant that that fell to 103,000 in 2008. Specialist lenders, been excluded from the Government’s lending support excluding bank and building society subsidiaries, accounted initiatives to date. Those lending initiatives have not for more than 20 per cent. of the buy-to-let mortgage resulted in any funds being passed through to specialist market in 2007. By the final quarter of 2008, that had lenders from banks that have access to the schemes. fallen to 0.3 per cent. Those figures are from the Council There is no evidence that the lending commitments of Mortgage Lenders. agreed by the nationalised and partly nationalised banks Non-bank buy-to-let specialist lenders have originated will result in the provision of necessary finance to allow high-quality assets and experience low arrears. In addition, the private rented sector to grow. most non-bank buy-to-let lenders have extremely sound Existing lending by high street lenders will certainly balance sheets. Colleagues have drawn attention to the not be sufficient to fill the gap created by the loss of number of recent repossessions in the rented sector, but non-bank capacity. Increased pressure on the private it is important to note that the majority of those involve rented sector runs the risk of leading to rental inflation, owner-occupied mortgages where borrowers have not putting further pressure on tenants. Indeed, the banks informed lenders that they are renting, not buy-to-let that are still lending in the private rented sector are mortgages. increasing the minimum rent that they require landlords Let me describe the current context. The credit crunch to charge. There is currently a complete lack of competition has resulted in increasing demand for rental property. in that market. Moneysupermarket has referred to the People are more reluctant or are unable to buy and market as a “ticking time bomb”, with the products on many are seeking refuge in renting. Figures from the offer not reflecting need in the market. Intermediary Mortgage Lenders Association show that What needs to change? What can we do to ensure that 58 per cent. of first-time buyers were unable to get a the private rented sector plays a full role in the future? mortgage through their broker in the final three months The Government have attempted to stimulate institutional of 2008. Of those, 80 per cent. are opting to rent investment, but that is not likely to be the answer. instead. Unsuitable properties are likely to be provided, which The private rented sector will play an increasingly will not reflect local demand in the way that can be important role as the recession continues. There was a achieved by more adaptable individual landlords, with 47 per cent. increase in rental demand in 2008, according the knowledge and experience that come from being to the property website Your Move. Demand from embedded in the local community. residential property investors is strong at a time when We need to find ways to encourage such landlords to other sectors are showing little appetite for house purchases. increase the supply of private rented sector properties. Landlord purchasing activity has benefits for the wider The answer lies in mortgage funding. Private landlords housing market, as it could put a floor under falling using buy-to-let finance have responded to demand in house prices, and it creates an active market. the private rented sector in the past, and lenders stand However, as more people turn to the private rented ready to provide the funds needed to meet that demand, sector to meet their housing needs, the availability of but the Government need to help specialist non-banks buy-to-let lending to finance an expansion of the sector to access finance. has fallen sharply. That shortage has been caused by the In the Budget, the Chancellor announced further closure of the wholesale funding markets, thus non-bank details of the lending support measures initially announced lenders are not able to resume lending. Many non-bank at the start of the year. Among those measures is the lenders relied on securitisation to fund new lending; but guarantee scheme for asset-backed securities, which is since markets closed in 2007, no new funds have become aimed at reviving the UK securitisation market to make available through that route, despite the fact that most more funds available for mortgage lending. non-bank lenders have no exposure to toxic assets. Figures from the Council of Mortgage Lenders show On 19 January, the Prime Minister said that the that new lending for buy-to-let properties has fallen package of measures that have been proposed significantly. Of the top 10 buy-to-let lenders in 2007, “must be accompanied by action to address all the obstacles that only two are now writing new business: Lloyds TSB and are discouraging and preventing the remaining UK banks from Nationwide, and Lloyds TSB has signalled a change of supporting the expansion of lending.” buy-to-let strategy, reducing its focus on that sector. The package announced by the Chancellor last month Non-bank lenders, which have provided vital competition will patently fail to achieve that. Buy to let is included in and driven the market forward, are unable to operate in the scheme, but the majority of mainstream banks have the market at all. Buy-to-let lending by specialist lenders withdrawn from the sector altogether. 219WH Private Rented Housing12 MAY 2009 Private Rented Housing 220WH

[Lorely Burt] ways in which it currently fails to meet its potential. In particular, we want to ensure that all groups have a Non-banks are excluded from the scheme, which is proper choice as to where they live. exclusively limited to banks and building societies, so That is especially important for the most vulnerable specialist lenders, which have used securitisation to lend in society. Although social housing will always have a in key parts of the housing market, such as the private strong role to play in providing for those most in need, rented sector, are prevented from doing so again. The we want to know that a family or individual who is Government have commented on risk profiles, but the looking for housing will also be offered opportunities overwhelming majority of non-bank institutions have linked to employment and training. We want to ensure taken a prudent approach to lending. that the advice that they receive looks thoroughly at the There will be no secondary lending effect. Even options that they can be offered to meet their housing mainstream banks are proving unwilling to utilise the needs and that, wherever appropriate, such options scheme. The lack of lending in the buy-to-let sector is include housing in the private rented sector. compounded further by the fact that high street banks We also want to be clear about what the private are not passing on any new funding to specialist financial rented sector looks like. We often talk about the sector institutions. as some homogenous block—as if it were a single The private rented sector is not getting the inflow of beast—but it is very complex, with interrelated sub-markets. funds that it badly needs to allow landlords to meet That was one of the issues that we wanted to address demand. The answer is to include non-bank specialist when we commissioned an independent review of the lenders in the residential mortgage-backed security scheme private rented sector by Julie Rugg and David Rhodes and to amend scheme eligibility criteria accordingly. at the Centre for Housing Policy at York university. Given the protracted nature of the European Commission They produced their findings in October 2008. state aid approval process and the impacts that ordinary people are feeling across the country, it is urgent that The Rugg review had a wide remit to look at how the the Government seek approval from the Commission as sector meets current needs and expectations and at soon as practically possible. whether and how the experiences of landlords and tenants might be improved. It identified several overarching Does the Minister accept that the private rented themes, including the need to improve the sector’s sector, driven by small landlords, must continue to play professionalism and increase knowledge and understanding a vital role in the housing sector in the coming years? of its various disparate sub-markets. After Julie Rugg Will he raise three specific questions with his Treasury produced her report, I went to York university to respond colleagues? First, why have non-banks, which have provided on behalf of the Government. I was struck by her much of the finance that has driven the growth of the suggestion that landlords should see their properties private rented sector, been excluded from the Government less as an investment and more as a business. That is a scheme? Secondly, will the Government seek approval subtle, but profound description of the way in which we from Brussels for the inclusion of non-banks in the should approach the private rented sector. residential mortgage-backed security guarantee scheme? Finally, will they amend the scheme’s eligibility criteria? Within the framework that it provided, the Rugg review also set out a range of what Julie termed “policy directions of travel”. Those included a revised and 1.43 pm improved regulatory framework, including a national The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for register for all private landlords and full independently Communities and Local Government (Mr. Iain Wright): I led regulation for letting and managing agents; measures congratulate the hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) to improve the professionalism of the sector and to on securing this important debate. She started by encourage the sector to grow, including a package of mentioning “Rising Damp” and Rigsby, and I would fiscal proposals and a culture change in local authority like to talk about the relationship between Miss Jones engagement with landlords; and better co-ordination of and your good self, Mr. Jones, but I am sure that you initiatives to procure and sustain private sector tenancies would rule me out of order, so perhaps I should get on for those in housing need. with my contribution. The review’s findings were thoughtful and well Aspirations and expectations about home ownership evidenced, and it has been really positive to see the and, importantly, the rights of tenants have risen endorsement that the report has received from all dramatically in the past half century, and rightly so. interested groups in the sector. I have since met a wide Whether people rent or buy, their right to a decent range of key stakeholders on a one-to-one basis and home in a thriving neighbourhood and to fair treatment, reflected on what they told us. regardless of their ownership or tenure status, should be The Rugg review is proving robust in the face of the the same. That right underpins the priority that the seismic economic changes that have occurred since its Government attach to delivering housing across all publication. Despite the challenges, we have not yet sectors. seen evidence that significantly undermines or invalidates I can answer one of the hon. Lady’s questions about its arguments. The review specifically set out a long-term the private rented sector straight away. The Government’s vision for the sector, as well as the ambition of making vision for the sector, and our approach in shaping the sector work more effectively for tenants, landlords policy, is that the sector should be encouraged to grow and agents. and thrive, while ensuring that it is fair to responsible As the hon. Lady said, the housing market has been tenants and good, professional landlords, regardless of hit hard by global financial turbulence, but we have not the size of their properties. Our aim is to harness what yet seen the full implications of what that may mean for the private rented sector has to offer and to address the the rental sector. There is likely to be increased demand, 221WH Private Rented Housing12 MAY 2009 Private Rented Housing 222WH not only from those who cannot currently obtain a of the shocks that have recently affected owner-occupation. mortgage, but, potentially, from more vulnerable groups As I have already mentioned, that is one of the strengths who can no longer sustain home ownership. With more of the sector. people, and potentially more vulnerable people, looking Of course—and the hon. Lady dramatically gesticulates for housing in the sector, it is essential to ensure that about how she might disagree with me on that last they get a fair deal—particularly those who do not have point—private renting cannot be insulated from some the financial ability to walk away from bad landlords. of the impact of the global downturn, and we have all No one could argue that current conditions are absolutely heard and read of instances of tenants of private landlords perfect. Unfortunately, the worst housing is still found becoming subject to repossession proceedings. That is in the private rented sector, and that has a disproportionate an important part of the remit of my Department. We effect on low-income and vulnerable families. As the must keep a careful eye on repossession statistics to Rugg review notes, however, the rental sector is in make sure that we establish a range of policy responses reasonably good shape overall, and there are many to minimise the number of repossessions. I think that strengths to build on. More than three quarters of the hon. Lady alluded to the fact that currently data people who rent privately are satisfied, and levels of suggest that buy-to-let landlords are no more likely to dissatisfaction are actually lower than they are in social be affected than other mortgage holders, and that just housing. Our recent reforms, from the Housing Act 2004 0.1 per cent. of landlords are affected. However, because onwards, such as the tenancy deposit protection scheme, of the need to protect tenants as well as property have helped to give greater confidence to tenants and owners in those cases, that is something that needs to be landlords alike. Although, unfortunately, unsatisfactory monitored very closely, and that is what we are doing. landlords and undesirable tenants exist, they are far In a few instances, tenants have faced eviction at very from the norm. short notice—sometimes just a few days—through no fault of their own, when their landlord’s property has We intend to issue in the near future the Government’s been repossessed. That is unacceptable. I am very much response to the Rugg review for consultation and wider aware of the anxiety, hardship and distress that that debate, and, without pre-empting that response, I think situation can create, and we are actively looking at what that I can share with the House a few of the principles can be done to tackle it. that have informed our thinking. First, as I think I said As I have said, we would like the private rented sector at the beginning of my remarks, we strongly believe that to thrive, expand and offer a housing solution for a a strong private rented sector has an important role to growing number of those who are unwilling or unable play in meeting the country’s future housing needs, so I to buy in the current market. The main theme of the am anxious that it should no longer be overlooked or hon. Lady’s speech was the important role that buy-to-let marginalised in policy, or seen as somehow “second can play in the financing of the private rented sector. best” in the popular imagination. It is not in anyone’s Buy-to-let has accompanied an improvement in the interest to think that someone who rents privately has quality of homes in the private rented sector—particularly failed as a citizen. That is a wrong and incomplete flats. The English house condition survey shows that picture. the proportion of “decent” homes in the sector rose to 55 per cent. in 2007. It is still low, and we still want to do Secondly, we believe that creating that stronger, healthier something about it, but that rate of improvement exceeds sector depends on supporting good landlords and letting the rate in the owner-occupied sector. Mortgage lending agents so that they can thrive and expand. It is essential to fund buy-to-let has, as the hon. Lady said, fallen in tackling bad landlords that we get a proportionate, dramatically in the changed market of recent months measured response. Thirdly, we want to make sure that but, as rental yields gently rise, in response to the any reform does not strangle the very strengths that supply-and-demand dynamics, the sector will, I think, attract people to renting in the first place: the flexibility, prove attractive to professional investors and landlords. choice and diversity of what is on offer. My concern is that the proposals that we put forward might lead Lorely Burt: I agree with everything that the Minister people to say, “I will not allow my property to be rented has said so far. The problem is that there is huge out,” and that the private rented sector would contract. demand for buy-to-let mortgages, huge demand from Any policy considerations, as the hon. Lady will be tenants, and huge demand from people who want to aware, will need to take that aspect of the matter into make the business of buy-to-let their business, but there account. The publication of the Government response is no money. The funding has virtually dried up. I hope will launch a three-month period of consultation, with that in the closing minutes of the debate the Minister the widest possible range of organisations and individuals, will deal with that problem and some of the suggestions about the way forward on our package of proposals. that we have made for freeing up a little funding so that the sector can carry out its important function. I am very conscious that the debate has focused in particular on the funding of the private rented sector. Mr. Wright: The hon. Lady was right on cue there The sector will, of course, continue to be funded primarily with what I want to suggest. She will be aware of the by the rent paid by nearly 3 million tenants to about 1 creation in December 2008 of the Homes and Communities million landlords in England alone, at a level freely Agency, a powerful national agency working locally agreed by both parties, as part of the tenancy contract. with different providers in a flexible way to try to In some cases that rent will be funded, of course, from address the needs—the housing and regeneration—of housing benefit, which is now local housing allowance. communities. I have said that a key role in housing However, the primary contractual relationship remains provision belongs to the private rented sector, so the that between the individual landlord and tenant. The Homes and Communities Agency has a legitimate interest private rented sector is not primarily dependent on the in it. On that basis, and in that context, I hope that the public purse and is proving relatively robust in the face hon. Lady will join me in welcoming the agency’s 223WH Private Rented Housing12 MAY 2009 Private Rented Housing 224WH

[Mr. Iain Wright] The private rented sector initiative could have the potential to help kick-start stalled development schemes launch on 1 May of its private rented sector initiative. and lead to a significant increase in high-quality new That will also form a key part of the package of homes for rent. The hon. Lady will be aware of the proposals in our forthcoming response to the Rugg £400 million announced by the Chancellor in the Budget review. I shall make sure that the hon. Lady is aware of to help to kick-start stalled developments, and make that when we publish our response. sure we have the housing delivery that the country The “expressions of interest” process that the HCA needs. The private rented sector could play a part in has launched could address the points identified by the that. hon. Lady. Potentially, it will attract significant investment Lorely Burt: Is the Minister saying that the new into the housing market by encouraging institutions to initiative will provide funding for buy-to-let for those fund new homes specifically for private rent. That is individuals whom I have referred to, who are already important, because, as I have mentioned several times, I the backbone of the buy-to-let industry in this country, want the private rented sector to grow, expand and and who are being starved of funds? Alternatively, is he thrive. I do not necessarily mean that it should increase referring to a hands-off management company funded as a proportion of the existing housing stock. The hon. by pension funds and other investors on large-scale Lady knows as well as I do that we need more homes. I long-term developments? want to know how to encourage build-to-let and what are the mechanisms by which we can do that, and thus Mr. Wright: As to the prospect of the HCA providing increase the number of homes rented out in the private mortgages for buy-to-let investors, it is early days, but I sector. should have to say that that is not probable. One thing that we are trying to do is encourage, as much as The objective of the private rented sector initiative is possible, large-scale institutional investment. However, to create an opportunity for investors such as pension smaller landlords have a role to play as well. As I funds to enter the private rented sector on a large scale. mentioned, it is important in the funding model that we That has not happened in this country before, but it is a should take into account the scale, and the variety of great opportunity. The reason I think so is that this scale, in the private rented sector. point in the economic cycle, where there is strong investor I welcome the debate, which is an important one. At a appetite for low-risk investment with a focus on income time of major change the private rented sector has the distribution and a longer-term investment horizon, is opportunity to grow in importance as part of our the right time to expand the private rented sector and overall housing supply and housing offer, and to increase consider its possibilities. The HCA seeks to work with in professionalism, scale and quality. I look forward to financial institutions and other investors to develop a working with the hon. Lady and others to make sure long-term funding model for new private rental housing that we can realise that vision. in England. It anticipates that the potential investment could come from sources such as pension funds or 2pm overseas investors, which have not traditionally been Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order involved in UK residential letting. No. 10(11)). 39WS Written Ministerial Statements12 MAY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS

representative stressed the need for co-operation and Written Ministerial dialogue between member states on better regulation policies and for stronger EU impact assessments. We Statements also suggested that the EU services directive should be an exemplar for EU legislation and that its implementation by the end of 2009 was important for EU’s future Tuesday 12 May 2009 competitiveness. The UK strongly supported the Commission’s proposal to allow member states the option to exempt micro-entities BUSINESS, ENTERPRISE AND REGULATORY (companies with ten or fewer employees and less than REFORM ¤1 million turnover) from the EU accounting directives, which would bring major cost savings for the EU’s EU Informal Competitiveness Council smallest businesses. Germany, Denmark and Romania also stated their support for the proposal. The Minister for Trade, Development and Consumer Affairs (Mr. Gareth Thomas): The following statement National Minimum Wage provides information on the EU Informal Competitiveness Council which took place in Prague on 5 May 2009, at which my official Claire Durkin director of Europe The Minister for Employment Relations and Postal International Trade and Development, at BERR Affairs (Mr. Pat McFadden): In March 2008 the represented the UK. Government asked the Low Pay Commission to produce The meeting started with the Commission presenting their next report on the national minimum wage by the a paper on lessons learned from the 2004 EU enlargement end of February 2009. Due to the exceptional economic and the future of the EU internal market. The circumstances the Low Pay Commission asked the Commission suggested that the priorities for Government for more time to produce their report to improving the EU single market and responding to the allow them to take into account more recent economic economic crisis were services (implementation of the data when making their recommendations. The services directive), intellectual property (agreement on Government granted this request and asked the Low Community patent and a single patent court) and Pay Commission to report by 1 May 2009. I would like completing the interconnection of the EU’s network to thank the Commissioners for all their hard work. industries (telecommunications, postal services, energy Low Pay Commission’s 2009 report and transport sectors). The main recommendations put forward by the Low In discussion, member states agreed with these three Pay Commission concern the rates of the minimum priorities and that the single market was essential for wage. The Commission have recommended that the EU economic recovery and growth. In addition, several adult hourly rate of the minimum wage should increase member states highlighted the importance of avoiding from £5.73 to £5.80. The Commission have recommended protectionism and better implementation of single market increasing the development rate, which covers workers legislation. All member states agreed that EU enlargement aged 18 to 21-year-olds, from £4.77 to £4.83. They have since 2004 had brought positive benefits to the EU. recommended that the rate for 16 to 17-year-olds moves Member states suggested that future EU developments from £3.53 to £3.57. It is recommended that these should be an increased focus on skills, innovation, the changes take place in October 2009. low-carbon economy, promoting EU standards externally, The Commission has also recommended that the more cross-border internet sales, boosting consumer accommodation offset increases from the current £4.46 to and social benefits, or delivering concrete achievements, £4.51 in October 2009. such as a Community patent. In addition, the Government accept the Commission’s The UK agreed with the forward looking suggestions recommendations that a policy of “naming and shaming” by the Commission and other member states. We stressed be implemented for those employers who show wilful the need for the EU to be at the high-end of the value disregard for national minimum wage; accept that 21-year- chain, noting in particular business opportunities in olds should be moved on to the adult rate of the low-carbon, digital and services. We also pointed out national minimum wage; accepts that commissioning that the UK is the sixth largest manufacturing country policies of local authorities in respect of social care in the world and that we wanted the single market to reflect the true cost of care provision including national work equally well for the manufacturing sector. In minimum wage; and accepts that consideration should addition, we welcomed the Larosiere report on EU be given to tackling non-payment of minimum wage in financial supervision and called for an integrated approach the informal economy. to better regulation and enforcement of EU single market rules. The Government note the Commission’s recommendations that they wish to explore a national The Commission also presented a paper on the EU minimum wage rate for apprentices and that more better regulation programme and invited member states resource should be dedicated to increase the number of to share best practice from national programmes. Most prosecutions. member states were supportive of the EU action programme on administrative burden reductions. Several member Government’s response to individual recommendations in states wanted the action programme to take account of the Low Pay Commission’s 2009 report new and amending regulations. Member states also National Minimum Wage Rates wanted better impact assessments on Commission We recommend that the adult minimum wage rate administrative burden reduction proposals. The UK should increase from £5.73 to £5.80 in October 2009. 41WS Written Ministerial Statements12 MAY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 42WS

We recommend that the youth development rate should NOTE increase from £4.77 to £4.83 in October 2009 and that We recognise the importance of the role that criminal the rate for 16 to17-year-olds should increase from prosecution plays in enforcing the NMW. Prosecutions £3.53 to £3.57 in October 2009. are focused on cases that will do most to promote We recommend that the accommodation offset compliance with the law by deterring employers who should increase from £4.46 per day to £4.51 per day in deliberately disregard NMW requirements, and the October 2009. Employment Act 2008 strengthened HMRC’s ability to investigate suspected NMW offences. We will keep our ACCEPT approach to NMW enforcement under review to ensure 21-year-olds that we have the most effective balance of civil and criminal enforcement activities. We recommend again that 21-year-olds should be Consideration of measures to tackle the informal economy entitled to the adult rate of the national minimum wage. We recommend that the Government give urgent ACCEPT consideration to measures that can be taken to effectively The Government accept that 21-year-old should be tackle employers in the informal economy. entitled to the adult rate of minimum wage. However, as Accept employment for young people is particularly vulnerable Tips and the National Minimum Wage in an economic downturn, this change will be implemented Although this is not part of the LPC’s recommendations, from October 2010. the Government announced last year that we would Naming and shaming change the regulations to stop the practice of tips being used to make up the NMW. We intend to proceed We recommend that a “name and shame” policy with this change in October alongside the LPC should be put in place to expose those employers who recommendations. show wilful disregard for the minimum wage.

ACCEPT CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES We believe greater transparency in this area is valid, particularly in the light of the fact that the NMW has now been in place for 10 years and is an established part Safeguarding - Progress in Delivering ContactPoint of labour rights. Apprentices The Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families (Ed Balls): On 26 January, I announced to the We recommend that a minimum wage for apprentices House the first steps to deploy the Government’s online should be introduced under the national minimum wage directory—ContactPoint. I can today provide an update framework. on progress in delivering ContactPoint, and outline the We recommend that the Government ask the Low next steps. Pay Commission, as part of the work for its 2010 ContactPoint has been developed in response to a report, to consider the detailed arrangements for an key recommendation of Lord Laming’s inquiry into the apprentice minimum wage under the national minimum tragic death of Victoria Climbié and is a vital tool wage framework, and to recommend the rate and designed to help keep children safe. In order to protect arrangements that should replace the existing exemptions, children it is crucial to ensure that the right agencies are together with the timing for its introduction. involved at the right time and to improve the sharing of information between practitioners. ContactPoint will NOTE also help practitioners to improve outcomes for all We recognise the central role that apprentices play in children. It is a tool for practitioners to support better developing skills in our economy. This is reflected in the communication among practitioners working with children Government’s target of 250,000 people a year starting and young people across education, health, social care an apprenticeship in England by 2020 and our commitment and youth offending services in the statutory and voluntary that one in five young people will be on an apprenticeship sectors. It will provide a quick way for those practitioners by 2013. to find out who else is working with the same child or young person and ensure their best interests are promoted. Therefore we note this recommendation, and will respond to the recommendation in full at the time of Under current arrangements, if a practitioner believes setting the LPC’s remit for 2010, which we plan to do in that a child is at risk or may need additional support, June. for example if they have a disability, they may have no way of knowing whether other services have been, or Social Care are already in contact with that child. In addressing We recommend that the commissioning policies of these issues, the Government estimate that ContactPoint, local authorities and the NHS should reflect the actual when fully operational, can save at least 5 million hours costs of care, including the national minimum wage. of professionals’ time, currently spent trying to track down who else, if anyone, is helping the child. Supporting Accept professionals in this way is an important element of the plan of action. I announced last week in response to Sufficient resource to increase numbers of prosecutions Lord Laming’s report on child protection. Lord Laming We recommend that the Government allocate sufficient said in that report: “The new ContactPoint system will resources to HMRC to increase significantly the number have particular advantages in reducing the possibility of of errant employers prosecuted in a criminal court. children for whom there are concerns going unnoticed”. 43WS Written Ministerial Statements12 MAY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 44WS

Since January, important progress has been made. unscrupulous or incompetent persons, and residents’ Seventeen early adopter local authorities in the north rights and expectation are often not met, some becoming west of England, along with leading national charities, victims of exploitation and intimidation. Barnardo’s and KIDS, now have trained management The Government want a thriving and well run sector teams in preparation for practitioners to start to use the that provides sites where people want to live. We want a system. At the same time, as part of the extensive licensing system that raises and maintains standards on ContactPoint security arrangements, local authorities sites and ensures they are safe, well planned and properly have shielded the records of children who are potentially managed with appropriate facilities and services to meet at greater risk if their whereabouts were to become the needs of residents. known, to provide an additional layer of security, (for The consultation builds upon decisions about proposals example, if a child is fleeing domestic violence or is taken following an earlier consultation in 2005 and sets under witness protection, or in some cases where children out for further consideration how the new licensing have been adopted). Approximately 52,000 records have system might look. Persons engaged in the management now been shielded on ContactPoint. of park home sites will need to demonstrate they have Building on this work, we will continue to take an the relevant competences to manage sites. The new system incremental and steady approach to delivery. We are will give local authorities duties to impose management now moving ahead with the second phase of delivery. conditions in licences and a range of enforcement tools From 18 May, and over a period of several weeks, to ensure that site licensing conditions are complied ContactPoint early adopters will train around with. It will also allow local authorities to recover their 800 practitioners to use ContactPoint. They have been costs in connection with their duties under the new hand-picked to ensure they reflect the broad range of provisions by charging appropriate fees. The proposals professionals working for children’s services organisations are intended to drive up the management standards in who will use ContactPoint when the directory is fully this sector and, in those parts of it where that is not rolled out. We will carefully monitor the activity of possible, we intend to give local authorities powers to those practitioners considering what further improvements put alternative management arrangements in place. may be required in the light of their experience of using I have also today published a paper setting out the the system. Government’s response to the May 2008 consultation From June to August, we will train management “Anew approach for resolving disputes and to proceedings teams in the other local authorities and national partners. relating to Park Homes under the Mobile Homes Act 1983 This will allow them to prepare for deployment of (as amended)”. The paper sets out the Government’s ContactPoint more widely in due course. intention to transfer the jurisdiction on appeals and Throughout this second phase, we will continue to applications under the Mobile Homes Act 1983 from evaluate the experience of early adopters. This will county courts to Residential Property Tribunals. The ensure that the deployment of ContactPoint continues paper also includes a short consultation on additional to take account of the experience of new users in the protections for residents subject to proceedings in relation next stages of delivery. to the termination of their agreements following on from the previous consultation. ContactPoint continues to be supported by major The aim of the transfer of the jurisdiction is to children’s organisations, such as NSPCC, Barnardo’s, provide residents of mobile homes (including caravans) Action for Children and KIDS, teachers’ unions including and the owners of sites on which they are located with a NASUWT, as well as the Association of Chief Police level playing field in the resolution of disputes, by Officers, the British Association of Social Workers, the providing access to a dedicated, low-cost specialist (housing) Royal College of General Practitioners and the Children’s tribunal, which can deal with cases quickly and without Inter-Agency Group whose members include the LGA the parties needing to be legally represented. and the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. Park home residents and the sector more widely will benefit from the introduction of these proposals and will build upon work already done to assist and support COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT residents and others with an interest in park homes. This also includes the recent publication of four new fact-sheets giving key information and basic guidance Park Home Site Licensing Provisions about commonly raised issues concerning park home sites. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for The consultation on site licensing runs until 4 August Communities and Local Government (Mr. Iain Wright): I 2009, and on the additional protections in relation to have today published a Consultation Paper, “Park Home termination of agreements until 9 June 2009. Both Site Licensing—Improving the Management of Park publications have been placed in the Library of the Home Sites”, that proposes the introduction of an House. improved park home site licensing system. Right to Enfranchise Provisions Licensing of park home sites is currently governed by the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 (the 1960 Act), but the existing site licensing regime The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for does not fully meet the needs of this part of the housing Communities and Local Government (Mr. Iain Wright): I sector. Authorities in general are obliged to grant licences have today published a consultation paper that proposes to anyone owning a park home site regardless of their the non-implementation and repeal of the Right to suitability and cannot impose any condition relating to Enfranchise (RTE) provisions in the 2002 Commonhold its management. Some sites are therefore run by and Leasehold Reform Act (the 2002 Act). 45WS Written Ministerial Statements12 MAY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 46WS

The 2002 Act sought through the RTE provisions to increase in HPDG and focus on delivering real help to prevent what was at that time acknowledged to be a the people who need it—and so have halved the rent fairly limited problem: Qualifying leaseholders being increases facing council tenants this year. deliberately excluded when fellow leaseholders exercised Proposed changes to the allocation mechanism statutory rights to purchase the freehold of the building We are also consulting on changes to the way the containing their flats (called collective enfranchisement). grant is allocated to ensure it recognises current challenges However, it has become clear that implementation of and encourages positive action by local authorities to the provisions would introduce a considerable amount facilitate recovery. Key reforms being proposed are: of additional burdens, complexity and cost into the To reduce the threshold of net additional homes needed to process. qualify for the housing element in year 3 in recognition of the The Government’s view is that this would be to the more challenging conditions in the housing market. overall detriment of leaseholders in general who are To introduce additional eligibility requirements for demonstrating benefiting from the changes that have been made by the land for housing in order to reinforce existing requirements in 2002 Act and earlier legislation to remove unreasonable planning policy statement 3 and increase confidence in the barriers to enfranchisement. land supply position across the county. Leaseholders will in due course also benefit from the To increase the percentage of the planning element awarded for demonstrating land for housing in year 2 in recognition of introduction of regulations on accounting for leaseholders the importance of land supply in supporting development. monies which will complete the programme of reform We are also consulting on proposals for an additional introduced under the 2002 Act. HPDG element in year 3 specifically to incentivise the The consultation runs until 3 August 2009 and the delivery of affordable housing. Government would welcome responses to their proposals Empowerment up until that date. Copies of the paper, “A consultation paper on the right to enfranchise (RTE) provisions”, Meaningful community involvement is an integral have been placed in the Library of the House. part of the planning system. The White Paper “Communities in Control: Real People, Real Power” announced up to £4 million additional funding for local Gypsy and Traveller Caravan Count planning authorities to promote community participation in planning. This funding is in addition to HPDG; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for however, we propose to use the HPDG mechanism to Communities and Local Government (Mr. Iain Wright): distribute this additional funding. The proposed allocation The Government have today published the “Count of criteria would support those authorities whom we would Gypsy and Traveller Caravans on 19 January 2009”. expect to be undertaking significant community engagement work, either in developing their core strategy or delivering Copies have been placed in the Library of the House high levels of new housing, and who have already and can be accessed via the Communities and Local identified community empowerment as a priority for Government website at: their overall performance. http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ statistics/caravancountjan2009 A copy of the consultation document has been placed in the House Library and is available on the Communities and Local Government website at: Housing and Planning Delivery Grant http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningand building/consultationdeliverygrant The Minister for Housing (Margaret Beckett): Iam today announcing the release of a consultation into NORTHERN IRELAND proposed changes to the allocation mechanism for years 2 and 3 (2009/10 and 2010/11) of Housing and Planning Probation Board for Northern Ireland (Business Plan Delivery Grant (HPDG). HPDG was established in 2009-10) 2007 to reward local authorities for improved delivery of housing and other planning outcomes as part of their strategic, place shaping role and to provide more The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul support to communities and local councils who are Goggins): I have today published the “Probation Board actively seeking to deliver new homes. The decision to for Northern Ireland Business Plan for 2009-10”. The review the grant scheme follows our public commitment plan sets out the board’s key objectives and performance to monitor the grant in light of changes in economic targets for the coming year. circumstances. Copies have been placed in the Libraries of both Changes to the funding profile Houses. The quantum of funding available for HPDG was set in a different economic context than where we are WORK AND PENSIONS today. We remain committed to the short and long-term objective of increased housing supply and will continue Agency Targets and Business Plans to invest significant sums through HPDG for local authorities who deliver more homes, with funding doubling from £100 million in year 1 to £200 million in year 3. In The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (James addition, there will no longer be a capital element to the Purnell): I am today able to announce the annual grant. However, current economic conditions have created performance targets for 2009-10 for the two executive new priorities both for Government and local authorities; agencies of the Department for Work and Pensions. we have therefore taken the decision to scale back the The targets I have agreed are set out below. 47WS Written Ministerial Statements12 MAY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 48WS

Further information on the plans of Jobcentre Plus Pension , Disability and Carers Service (2009-10 Targets) and the Pension, Disability and Carers Service in 2009-10 Benefit take-up To deliver at least 255,000 successful is contained in their individual “Business Plans” which new Pension Credit applications. have been published today. Copies have been placed in Accuracy Pension Credit financial accuracy of the Library. new claims and changes of circumstance: 93% first half year; Jobcentre Plus (2009-10 Targets) 94% second half year. State Pension financial accuracy of Job Outcome Target (million To achieve a total points score of new claims and changes of points) 9 million based on our priority circumstance: 98%. customer groups. Financial accuracy of Carers Interventions Delivery Target To make sure that specified Jobcentre Allowance: 98%. Plus labour market interventions take place within set timescales in 85% of Accuracy of decisions for Disability cases checked. Living Allowance (DLA): 94%. Employer Engagement Target At least 92% of employers placing Accuracy of decisions for Attendance their vacancies with Jobcentre Plus Allowance (AA): 94%. will have a positive outcome. New Claims Clearance Times Clear new applications for Pension Customer Service Target To achieve an 86% customer service Credit (measured from date all level in the delivery of the standards evidence is received) within an average set out in the Customer and of 15 days. Employers Charters. Clear 95% of new claims for State Fraud and Error To play a key role to prevent and Pension within 60 days. detect overpayments and Clear new claims for Disability Living underpayments of benefit consistent Allowance within an average of with the Department’s aspiration to 38 days. reduce total overpaid expenditure Clear new claims for Attendance across all benefits to 1.8% and Allowance within an average of underpaid expenditure to 0.7% by 16 days. March 2011. Clear new claims for Carer’s The target is supported by a suite of Allowance within an average of non-published measures of activities 13.5 days. to pay our customers the right benefit Fraud and Error Reduce the proportion of benefit at the right time. overpaid due to fraud and error in Average Actual Clearance Times To process claims within specified Pension Credit to 4.5% by March Tartet1 Average Actual Clearance Times: 2011. Jobseeker’s Allowance 11.5 days Telephony At least 93% of calls to be answered Income Support 10 days by an adviser. 1A shadow target for Employment and Support Allowance is under Less than 1% of calls receiving an development and will be monitored closely during 2009-10 to inform target- engaged /busy tone. setting for 2010-11.

5P Petitions12 MAY 2009 Petitions 6P

power to urge the BBC to reconsider its decision and to Petitions contact the Disasters Emergency Committee as a matter of urgency so that its appeal can be broadcast nationally. Tuesday 12 May 2009 And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Mr. John Leech, Official Report, 10 March 2009; Vol. 489, c. 270.] OBSERVATIONS [P000323] Observations from the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport: CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT This is a matter for the BBC. Under the terms of the BBC’s Charter and Agreement, the BBC is independent Gaza of Government and there is no provision for Government The Petition of persons concerned at the BBC’s decision to intervene in the BBC’s day-to-day editorial matters. not to air the DEC’s Gaza Appeal The BBC Charter and Agreement contain specific Declares that the International Committee of the and detailed provisions on impartiality. A requirement Red Cross has said that conditions for the people of has been placed on the BBC to treat controversial Gaza are “worse than Darfur” but the BBC refuses to subjects with due accuracy and impartiality, both in the allow the Disasters Emergency Committee to broadcast Corporation’s news services and in the more general an appeal for aid; further declares the petitioners’ agreement field of programmes dealing with matters of public with Government Health Minister Ben Bradshaw, who policy or industrial controversy. has said the reasons the BBC has given for blocking an Within this framework, it is the BBC’s job to make appeal for humanitarian aid are “completely feeble” judgements about what individual programmes should and that it was “an inexplicable decision”. contain. It is a long-standing principle that the Government The Petitioners therefore request that the House of do not interfere in programme matters, either on Commons urges the Government to do everything in its arrangements for scheduling or on content.

633W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 634W

Paul Goggins: The Northern Ireland Office has a Written Answers to Green ICT strategy in place, derived from the Cabinet Office “Greening Government ICT”strategy.The Northern Questions Ireland Office Board is committed to implementing the strategy’s 51 recommendations, where practicable. To date, 29 recommendations have already been addressed Tuesday 12 May 2009 or are under active consideration, including a commitment that new ICT equipment will comply with at least one of the green energy standards. This is now incorporated CHURCH COMMISSIONERS into all centralised procurement framework agreements.

Churches: Repairs and Maintenance CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Miss McIntosh: To ask the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the Church Arts Council England: Grants Commissioners what recent discussions the Church Commissioners have had with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on heritage grant funding Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, for church repairs. [274612] Media and Sport how much Arts Council England awarded in grants in (a) 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09. Sir Stuart Bell: Representatives of the Church of [273983] England have regularly met with a number of Government Departments, namely HM Treasury, DCLG, DEFRA, Barbara Follett [holding answer 8 May 2009]: Arts Office of the Third Sector in the Cabinet Office and Council England has advised that the following has DCMS. been awarded in grants in 2007-08. Figures for 2008-09 These discussions have culminated in the joint publication are currently being prepared and are not yet available. of guidance entitled ‘Churches and Faith Buildings: Realising the Potential’. The guidance seeks to help £ faith groups access existing resources and help funders Grant in aid 2007-08 understand the important role of faith groups in delivering Regularly Funded Organisations 314,916,000 public services. Specifically, it identifies funding for the Grants for the Arts-Individuals 9,729,000 physical alteration and modification of churches and Strategic Funding and Activities 16,273,000 other faith buildings to ensure they are fit for community (Managed Funds) use. Creative Partnerships 17,461,000 Other restricted funds 16,482,000 Lapsed and revoked commitments -1,151,000 HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Total grant in aid funding grants 373,710,000

Hamas Lottery funding 2007-08 Grant commitments made in the 99,551,000 Mr. Amess: To ask the hon. Member for North year Devon, representing the House of Commons Lapsed and revoked commitments -8,655,000 Commission whether the organisers of the meeting Total lottery funding 90,896,000 held on the Parliamentary estate on 22 April 2009 involving a video link with a senior leader of Hamas sought the approval of the House of Commons Total grant funding 464,606,000 Commission beforehand; what representations the Commission received from hon. Members opposing Casinos the video link from taking place; what response the Commission gave; and if he will make a statement. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State [274025] for Culture, Media and Sport how many licensed casinos were in operation in each local authority area Nick Harvey: The House of Commons Commission under the provisions of (a) the Gambling Act 1968 has no role in approving Members’ choice of participants and (b) the Gambling Act 2005 in each year since in video-linked meetings. 1997. [274083]

Mr. Sutcliffe: The Gambling Commission have advised that to date there have been no premises licences issued NORTHERN IRELAND under the provisions of the Gambling Act 2005 in relation to casinos. Departmental ICT The Gambling Act1968 has seen casinos located in John Thurso: To ask the Secretary of State for 53 distinct ’permitted areas’ in which the licensing for Northern Ireland what steps he has taken to reduce clubs for gaming other than bingo is permitted. the level of carbon dioxide emissions arising from the Details of the number of casinos operating in each operation of ICT systems in his Department under the permitted area for each year can be found in the annual Greening Government ICT Strategy. [273563] reports of the Gambling Commission and its predecessor 635W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 636W the Gaming Board. Copies of these reports are laid in has now been installed on all machines in my Department the Library and are also available on the Gambling to ensure that all unused machines are shut down Commission’s website at: outside working hours. www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk Departmental Work Experience Departmental Contracts Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how many work placements his Media and Sport which services his Department has Department offered to (a) school pupils, (b) outsourced in each of the last five years; and if he will university students and (c) graduates in each of the make a statement. [274451] last five years. [274489] Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department has not outsourced Mr. Sutcliffe: DCMS do not offer work placements any new services within the last five years. A number of to school pupils. However, DCMS has taken part in the services have been outsourced prior to this period such Cabinet Office Summer Work Placement scheme for as: university students and graduates from under-represented Facilities Managements, groups. In the last five years we have taken five placements Information Technology, per year. Catering Services, Records Management, and English Heritage: Educational Visits Mailroom Services. Departmental Dismissal Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how much has been spent on the (a) administration, (b) staffing and (c) advertisement and Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for promotion of the English Heritage free educational Culture, Media and Sport how many members of staff visits scheme in each year since the introduction of the in his Department and its agency were dismissed (a) scheme. [272321] for under-performance and (b) in total in each of the last 10 years. [274301] Barbara Follett [holding answer 5 May 2009]: English Heritage introduced free entry for educational groups Mr. Sutcliffe: The information is as follows. to its sites as one of its first acts after its creation in

Underperformance Total dismissals 1984. However, the figures requested are only available for the years from 1996-97 and these represent the total Royal Parks Royal Parks DCMS Agency DCMS Agency spend on education in each year. It is not possible to separate out how much is spent on free educational 1999 0 0 0 0 visits alone, or to break down the total as requested. 2000 0 0 0 0 The available figures are set out in the following table: 2001 0 1 0 1 2002 0 1 0 1 £ 2003 0 0 0 1 Of which: 2004 0 1 0 1 Total expenditure Marketing and 2005 0 0 0 0 on education Payroll promotion 2006 0 0 0 0 1996-97 1,083,870 342,575 365,802 2007 0 0 0 0 1997-98 961,479 265,498 491,661 2008 0 0 1 0 1998-99 814,314 274,472 422,639 2009 0 0 1 0 1999-2000 972,013 361,021 540,461 Total0324 2000-01 1,059,290 408,818 509,290 2001-02 1,101,696 436,462 659,799 Departmental ICT 2002-03 1,182,071 556,628 597,433 2003-04 1,416,248 659,582 546,356 John Thurso: To ask the Secretary of State for 2004-05 1,335,050 695,672 487,447 Culture, Media and Sport what steps he has taken to 2005-06 1,445,448 630,006 213,539 reduce the level of carbon dioxide emissions arising 2006-07 1,503,366 649,604 390,713 from the operation of ICT systems in his Department 2007-08 1,429,012 698,122 475,614 under the Greening Government ICT Strategy. [273561] 2008-09 1,466,873 727,583 335,125

Mr. Sutcliffe: My Department, in line with all other Chief Information Officers (CIOs) on the CIO Council, Funding has produced a “CIO Green ICT Roadmap” which we will be following to deliver against the 18 target improvement Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, areas outlined in the Greening Government ICT Strategy. Media and Sport (1) how much funding the My Department has identified Green ICT as one of Community Fund has (a) committed and (b) our key priorities for the coming year. As part of this, distributed since its creation; [273982] we have led a cross-Government exercise to procure a (2) how much funding the Big Lottery Fund has (a) standard tool to allow departments to safely shut down committed and (b) distributed since its creation. desktop PCs overnight and out of hours. This software [273984] 637W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 638W

Mr. Sutcliffe [holding answer 8 May 2009]: The Big Barbara Follett: The Heritage and Culture Sector Lottery Fund has advised that from 1 December 2006, Club provides VisitBritain with a forum to disseminate when it was legally created from the merger of the important consumer and market intelligence in order to Community Fund, New Opportunities Fund and encourage appropriate product development in heritage Millennium Commission it has awarded £1,898 million and culture specific areas. and distributed £1,433 million to grant recipients. This work informs VisitBritain’s marketing campaigns The distribution includes outstanding payments to and encourages the spread of best practice within the Community Fund, New Opportunities Fund and tourism industry. Millennium Commission grant holders. Internet: English Language In the period from the Community Fund’s inception in 1993 until 30 November 2006, it awarded £3,863 million and distributed £2,926 million to grant recipients. Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what recent progress has The Community Fund’s first grants were awarded in been made on the proposal to establish international October 1995, following their legal creation in 1993. rules for the operation of English language websites; Many Community Fund projects are still in management and what recent discussions he has had with the US and delivering benefits to communities, they therefore administration on the matter. [273291] are still drawing money down from their grant allocation. Gambling Barbara Follett: I remain keen to discuss an international approach to areas of public concern about certain Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for internet content and look forward to engaging with the Culture, Media and Sport what information his appropriate member of the US Administration once the Department holds on the number of people being relevant appointment has been made. treated for gambling addiction. [273288] Licensing Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department does not centrally collate statistics on the number of people being treated Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for for gambling addiction at any one time. Culture, Media and Sport what recent research his Department has commissioned to assess the In 2008 the Responsibility in Gambling Trust (RIGT) effectiveness of the operation of premises licences. estimated that of the 0.6 per cent. of the adult population [273652] categorised as problem gamblers, 0.5 per cent. were accessing treatment from RIGT funded treatment providers, Mr. Sutcliffe [holding answer 8 May 2009]: While on an annual basis. specific research has not been commissioned on this The Gambling Commission is currently considering matter, the Government continue to monitor the effect whether to include specific questions on the awareness of the Licensing Act 2003. On 4 March 2008, my right of treatment services in the next British Gambling hon. Friend the Secretary of State made a written Prevalence Survey which will be published in 2010. ministerial statement on the evaluation of the impact of the 2003 Act, which can be read at Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.culture.gov.uk/reference_library/minister Culture, Media and Sport what estimate he has made _speeches/1997.aspx of the number of online gambling companies based Copies of the written ministerial statement are also overseas which operate in the UK which (a) contribute available in the House Library. and (b) do not contribute to funding of problem gambling services; and if he will make a statement. Local Press [273653] Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Mr. Sutcliffe [holding answer 8 May 2009]: My Media and Sport if he will commission research into Department does not collect statistics on the number of the (a) financial viability of local newspapers and (b) overseas based operators contributing to the funding of number of journalists employed by local newspapers in problem gambling services in the UK. each of the last five years. [274238] However, we are aware that some operators based in Alderney, Gibraltar and Malta contributed on a voluntary Andy Burnham: There are no plans by Government basis to the Responsibility in Gambling Trust last year. to commission this research. However, on 28 April I Additionally, a number of companies licensed for hosted a local media summit involving key figures from premises-based operations in the UK contribute significantly across the media industry to discuss the challenges towards research, education and treatment of problem facing local newspapers and explore how we can support gambling in the UK and have remote gambling operations the local media industry in meeting these challenges so that are based in European Union or white listed that it can continue to thrive in the future. These discussions jurisdictions. will feed into the final Digital Britain report to be published by the Government in the summer. Heritage and Culture Sector Club: VisitBritain Sports Equity Alliance Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what functions the Heritage Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for and Culture Sector Club has in relation to VisitBritain. Culture, Media and Sport how much funding (a) his [270815] Department, (b) Sport England and (c) UK Sport has 639W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 640W provided to each member of Sport England’s Sports Mr. Sutcliffe [holding answer 8 May 2009]: Sport Equity Alliance in each of the last five years; and how England have advised that 2,389 voluntary community much each has allocated to each member of the sports coaches have been recruited under the Recruit Alliance in the next expenditure round. [272942] into Coaching scheme since its inception. Swimming Pools Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department for Culture, Media and Sport does not fund Sport England’s Sports Equity Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Alliance directly. Funding is channelled through Sport Media and Sport how many public swimming pools England and UK Sport. (a) closed and (b) opened in England in 2008. Sport England has advised that their core revenue [274730] funding to Equity Partners over the last five years is as follows: Mr. Sutcliffe: Sport England advise that the figures for 2008 have not yet been collated, but should be £ available in the summer. English Women’s Sport Federation of and Fitness Trade Unions Disability Sport Sporting Equals Foundation

2004-05 1,050,000 140,000 200,000 Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005-06 1,050,000 140,000 200,000 Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 2006-07 1,010,333 319,334 462,333 9 March 2009, Official Report, column 22W, on trade 2007-08 951,066 317,066 419,898 unions, what office facilities his Department provides 2008-09 1,100,000 376,419 541,250 for the exclusive use of each recognised trade union; 2009-10 (first 275,000 81,604 135,125 and what the notional annual value of such provision quarter)1 is. [271937] 1 Funding has been awarded for the first quarter only of 2009-10 pending consideration by Sport England of applications from the equity partners that Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department have one full-time detail how they propose working to support National Governing Bodies and other sport deliverers in the period 2009-11. trade union representative. The Department provide a desk, computer and telephone in the open plan office area. The trade union representative also has access to UK Sport has advised that they have provided the other shared office facilities such as meeting rooms, following funding to each member of Sport England’s photocopying, scanning and faxing. Sports Equity Alliance over the past five years: The cost per annum of providing accommodation Women’s Sport and Fitness Foundation (formerly the Women’s Sports Foundation) and office facilities per-full time equivalent is £11,939. Funding from UK Sport (£) VisitBritain: Finance 2004-05 8,659.50 2005-06 8,641.35 Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07 8,800.25 Culture, Media and Sport if he will make an estimate 2007-08 376 of the effect on (a) the British economy and (b) 2008-09 229.13 Exchequer revenues which would arise from an increase in (i) £10 million, (ii) £20 million and (iii) £50 million to Sporting Equals the planned VisitBritain budget in each of the next five Funding from UK Sport (£) years. [272532]

2004-05 356.67 Barbara Follett: VisitBritain’s grant in aid for the 2005-06 98.56 period 2011 to 2014 will be considered in due course. 2006-07 2,553.65 An increase of £10 million or £20 million over and 2007-08 2,749.38 above their current baseline funding would be deployed 2008-09 4,020 on above the line marketing activity. VisitBritain and Visit England would also seek to achieve 50 per cent. English Federation of Disability Sport match funding from industry partners in line with such Funding from UK Sport (£) increases.

2004-05 0 The additional visitor spend and tax revenue generated 2005-06 0 by such investment would significantly depend on the 2006-07 0 economic situation during the next five years and its 2007-08 0 impact on global airline traffic. VisitBritain and Visit 2008-09 0 England would currently expect to spend an increase of £50 million in each of the next five years not only on above the line marketing activity, but also on brand building and the development of new markets. Sports: Training Again, the benefits would be influenced by economic developments in the wider economy. More detailed Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, analysis and a larger planning exercise would be required Media and Sport how many voluntary community to calculate the benefits over this period. In preparing sports coaches have been recruited under the for the next Spending Round, the Department will Recruiting to Coach scheme since its inception. consider with VisitBritain a range of scenarios examining [273802] the economic impact of each. 641W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 642W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS and its representatives on (a) the Government’s strategy for dealing with bovine tuberculosis and (b) Air Pollution: Torbay means of communicating that strategy through the work of veterinary surgeons. [273463] Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what his most Jane Kennedy: The Bovine TB Eradication Group recent assessment is of air quality in the Torbay local includes representatives from DEFRA’s Food and Farming authority area; and what steps the Government are Group, Animal Health, the farming industry and the taking to improve air quality in the area. [272529] veterinary profession. Huw Irranca-Davies: Local authorities have a duty In addition, the TB Advisory Group, which played a under Part IV of the Environment Act 1995 to review key role in obtaining stakeholder buy-in to TB control and assess the current, and likely future, air quality in policies, also included representatives from the veterinary their areas, and to submit reports on local air quality to profession. The group disbanded on 8 April after publishing DEFRA. its final report to Ministers. Where local authorities consider that one or more of As part of planning for the badger vaccine deployment nationally prescribed air quality objectives is unlikely to project, we have recently met with representatives of be met by the relevant deadline, they must declare an air key veterinary organisations to discuss both their input quality management area (AQMA) covering the area into the project and the best ways of communicating to affected. These local authorities must then take action, and through local vets. along with other agencies and organisations, to work Also on a recent visit to the south-west I met local towards meeting the air quality objectives. Torbay council animal health vets and affected farmers to learn of the declared AQMAs in respect of nitrogen dioxide objectives growing TB problem and the challenge of tackling the in April 2005 and May 2006. The council has produced disease. an action plan setting out the measures they are implementing in order to improve air quality in the Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for area. Since local road transport is the primary cause of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans he local air pollution in these AQMAs, Torbay council has has to tackle testing fatigue among (a) farmers and integrated its air quality action plan into the Torbay (b) veterinary surgeons in relation to testing for bovine Local Transport Plan 2006-2011, a copy of which is tuberculosis. [273464] available at: www.torbay.gov.uk Jane Kennedy: I am aware from discussions with DEFRA has assessed, and is satisfied with Torbay representatives from the farming industry and veterinary council’s 2008 progress report, and we await the council’s profession, and the recent report from our TB Advisory air quality report for 2009. Group, that testing fatigue can become an issue in areas The Government provide guidance and practical support with high numbers of TB breakdowns. We are considering to assist local authorities with their duties on review the report in detail. and assessment of air quality, and to ensure consistency The TB Eradication Group for England (TBEG) was and best practice. Revised and updated guidance was set up last year to consider, and advise on, the TB published in February on the DEFRA website at: control framework, including the cattle testing programme. www.defra.gov.uk Part of their remit is to look at options for helping The Government also fund several helplines which local farmers in high incidence areas maintain viable businesses, authorities can contact for practical and technical advice which may include options for managing the impact of on monitoring, modelling, emission inventories and air TB controls on the farming industry and the veterinary quality action plan measures. All local authorities are profession. invited each year to bid for air quality grant aid, and Regular skin testing of cattle herds is an important applications are considered and awards made towards part of our TB programme, both for tackling disease in the cost of air quality projects in local areas. cattle and ensuring the risk to public health remains Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control low. Regular TB testing is also legally required if herd owners wish to retain their officially tuberculosis free Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for (OTF) status and their ability to trade. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he expects to announce which areas have been chosen for the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 bovine tuberculosis wildlife vaccination pilot. [273462]

Jane Kennedy: We have been working in liaison with Bill Wiggin: To ask the Secretary of State for the Bovine TB Eradication Group for England, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many epidemiologists and other key industry and stakeholder people have been prosecuted under sections 1(3), 3(1) groups to identify criteria for selecting the areas where and 3(3) of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 in each year the bovine TB badger vaccine deployment project will since 2006; and if he will make a statement. [272367] take place. We anticipate the areas will be announced shortly. Jane Kennedy: The number of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts for offences under sections Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for 1(3), 3(1) and 3(3) of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent England and Wales for the years 2006-07 (latest available) discussions he has had with the veterinary profession can be viewed in the following table. 643W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 644W

These data are on the principal offence basis. Court Huw Irranca-Davies: In 2003 Ofwat reported the proceedings data for 2008 will be available in the autumn outcome of its review of company charging polices for of 2009. surface water drainage. It concluded that site area charging was the fairest method of charging non-households for Statute Offence description 2006 2007 surface water drainage.

Dangerous Dogs Possession, without exemption, of a 887 Ofwat said at the time that companies which are Act 1991 Sec 1(3) Pit Bull Terrier, Japanese Tosa or thinking about implementing site area charging would other designated fighting dog. need to consider the impact on individual customers’ Dangerous Dogs Owner or person in charge allowing 703 667 bills and the potential negative effects associated with Act 1991 Sec 3(1) dog to be dangerously out of control in a public place injuring any person. charging for sensitive properties. Ofwat also highlighted Dangerous Dogs Owner or person in charge allowing 278 341 that companies would need to take into account the Act 1991 Sec 3(1) dog to be dangerously out of control scale and speed of any bill changes to see if they were in a public place, no injury being reasonable and acceptable to customers. caused. Dangerous Dogs Owner or person in charge allowing 54 50 It is for the companies to undertake the appropriate Act 1991 Sec 3(3) dog to enter a non-public place and impact assessments of any changes in their charging injure any person. policies on their customers. Dangerous Dogs Owner or person in charge allowing 19 22 Act 1991 Sec 3(3) dog to enter a non- public place causing reasonable apprehension of injury to a person. TRANSPORT Total 1,062 1,167 1. These data are on the principal offence basis. Departmental Air Conditioning 2. Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts, and police Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection Transport how much his Department has spent on processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those carrying out inspections of air conditioning systems data are used. Source: within departmental buildings in accordance with the Court proceedings data held by CJEAU—Office for Criminal Justice Energy Performance of Buildings (Certificates and Reform—Ministry of Justice. Inspections) (England and Wales) Regulations 2007 Our Ref: IOS 239-09 (Table). since the Regulations entered into force. [272134] Tourism: Rural Areas Mr. Hoon: The Department for Transport has spent a Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for total of £32,925.20 on carrying out inspections of air Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the conditioning systems within departmental buildings in answer of 25 March 2009, Official Report, column accordance with the Energy Performance of Buildings 381W, on tourism: rural areas, how much of the Regulations (2007/991). £35 million was devolved to each of the regional development agencies. [274944] Departmental Air Travel

Huw Irranca-Davies: Each regional development agency Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for (RDA) has been provided with an indicative budget for Transport with reference to the answer to the hon. the entire programming period (2007-13) to enable them Member for Rochford and Southend East of 6 October to deliver the full range of regional priorities. The figure 2008, Official Report, column 477W, on departmental of £35 million is an indicative allocation to the programme carbon emissions, what the figures for (a) domestic, measure that provides for support for rural tourism. It (b) short-haul and (c) long-haul air travel for 2007-08 is for each RDA to determine the actual level of spend are. [271934] and this will be influenced by a range of factors, including the number and quality of projects coming forward and Mr. Hoon: The Department for Transport’s contribution changes to regional priorities agreed during the to the Government Carbon Offsetting Fund for 2007-08 programming period. was based on the following mileage: (a) domestic 694,279 Trade Unions miles, (b) short-haul 821,645 miles, and (c) long-haul 1,940,261 miles. Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Capital Expenditure Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the answer of 11 March 2009, Official Report, column Mr. Hoban: To ask the Secretary of State for 439W, on trade unions, which trade unions his Transport pursuant to the answer of 2 April 2009, Department’s agencies recognise. [271930] Official Report, column 1413W, on departmental Huw Irranca-Davies: The Department’s agencies recognise capital expenditure, what progress his Department has PCS, Prospect and FDA trade unions, all of which are made in allocating the £700 million capital spending members of the Council of Civil Service Unions (CCSU). advanced to 2009-10. [274185] Water Charges Mr. Hoon: Pursuant to the answer of 2 April 2009, Official Report, column 1413W, on capital expenditure, Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for the £700 million advanced to 2009-10 has been allocated Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether Ofwat as follows; £400 million to the Highways Agency for undertook an impact assessment of the strategic network road improvements, including dualling implementation of its proposals for water rate the A46 Newark to Widmerpool and £300 million to structures on community groups and churches. [271952] the Rail group for train procurement. 645W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 646W

Departmental Consultants Financial year Provisional licences issued Mr. Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for 1998-99 760,049 Transport how much (a) his Department and (b) its 1999-2000 616,720 executive agencies spent on consultancy contracts in 2000-01 685,921 2008-09. [272586] 2001-02 792,603 2002-03 867,626 Mr. Hoon: The Department for Transport spent 2003-04 915,232 £57.3 million on consultancy in 2008-09 and its Executive 2004-05 906,523 Agencies spent £20.9 million on consultancy in 2008-09. 2005-06 958,698 2006-07 1,002,386 Departmental ICT 2007-08 1,045,498 2008-09 954,204 John Thurso: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he has taken to reduce the level of The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency does not carbon dioxide emissions arising from the operation of record the volumes of how many drivers exchanged ICT systems in his Department under the Greening their provisional licence for a full licence. However, we Government ICT Strategy. [273562] do record the number of drivers who have passed their test, as follows: Mr. Hoon: I refer the hon. Member to my answer of 23 April 2009, Official Report, columns 797-98W. Financial year Number 1998-99 580,880 Departmental Manpower 1999-2000 580,223 2000-01 605,661 Mr. Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for 2001-02 614,608 Transport how many people work in his Department’s 2002-03 651,566 Communications Directorate. [274719] 2003-04 673,129 2004-05 779,440 Mr. Hoon: I refer my hon. Friend to my answer of 2005-06 837,472 8 May 2009, Official Report, column 486W. 2006-07 831,545 2007-08 856,523 Departmental Rail Travel 2008-09 873,539

Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Government Car and Despatch Agency: Pay Transport what guidance his Department issues on whether members of staff may claim for travel in first class carriages on trains if there are no seats in Mr. Leech: To ask the Secretary of State for standard class. [268543] Transport how many full-time staff employed at the Government Car and Despatch Agency in London Mr. Hoon: Rules relating to travel claims are set out earn less than £15,944 per annum. [274699] in the Civil Service Management Code. Mr. Hoon: The Government Car and Despatch Agency Departmental Training has no full-time employees earning £15,944 per annum or less.

Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Motor Vehicles: Insurance Transport what his Department’s policy is on the practice of holding departmental away days outside the Department’s buildings. [268535] Mr. Goodwill: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport with reference to the answer to the hon. Mr. Hoon: The Department for Transport and its Member for Windsor of 3 November 2008, Official agencies hold staff away days as part of its commitment Report, columns 49-50W, what progress has been made to staff and team development. The Head of the business on the introduction of electronic motor insurance area arranging the event will determine whether to hold certificates; and if he will make a statement. [274957] the away day outside the Department’s buildings. The underlying assumption is that the Department’s own Jim Fitzpatrick: A first draft of regulations has been building will be used where appropriate. prepared and is being discussed internally and with the motor insurance industry. Driving: Licensing We aim to lay regulations before the end of the year, if the proposed approach proves to be practicable. Stephen Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many (a) provisional and (b) full Railways: Franchises driving licences were issued in each year since 1998. [273836] Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent discussions he has had with Jim Fitzpatrick: The number of provisional licences National Express on its East Coast Main Line issued in each financial year since 1998-99 are: franchise; and if he will make a statement. [273989] 647W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 648W

Paul Clark [holding answer 8 May 2009]: Under the the Rushenden Link Road scheme in June 2006. The Franchise Agreement, a Franchise Performance Meeting HCA (formerly Communities and Local Government) between Department for Transport officials and National made £9 million available through their Thames Gateway Express East Coast is held every four weeks to discuss programme fund, with the remaining £3 million coming the delivery of its franchise agreement and obligations. from SEEDA. The last such meeting took place on 23 April 2009. Derek Wyatt: To ask the Secretary of State for Railways: Tickets Transport who the funding stakeholders for the Rushenden Link Road project are. [274800] Stephen Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport which train operating companies are Paul Clark: The South East England Development required under the terms of their franchise agreements Agency and the Homes and Communities Agency (formerly to introduce smart ticketing. [273833] with the Communities and Local Government) are the key funding stakeholders for the Rushenden Link Road Paul Clark: The following franchises have a requirement project and jointly committed £12 million to fund the within the terms of their franchise to introduce or scheme in June 2006. accept ITSO based smartcard ticketing: South West Trains Shipping: Pollution London Midland East Midlands Trains Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for National Express East Coast Transport if he will hold discussions at EU level to seek Cross Country to establish a low emission shipping zone in European coastal waters. [272522] The new South Central franchise will also include similar provisions. Jim Fitzpatrick: A Sulphur Oxides (SOx) Emission Control Area has been in force in the North Sea area Stephen Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for (including the English Channel) since 2007. Since then, Transport what requirements regarding smart ticketing the UK has played a significant role in the development he will place on the operating company awarded the of the revised MARPOL Annex VI which the International South Central franchise currently under tender. Maritime Organization (IMO) adopted last year and [273834] which will result in a further significant reduction of emissions from ships of sulphur oxides and nitrogen Paul Clark: In line with all recent franchise competitions, oxides, and improved air quality in our coastal regions. the operator of the new South Central Franchise will be We consistently seek to develop measures to reduce ship required to introduce an ITSO based smartcard ticketing emissions in fora such as the IMO and the European system across the franchise, with the scheme introduced Union. by January 2012. With regard to the introduction of Oyster Pay As Trade Unions You Go within the London area the operator will be required to work with Transport for London and the Department for Transport to secure its implementation. Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the answer of 10 March 2009, Stephen Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Official Report, column 366W, on trade unions, which Transport what progress his Department has made on trade unions his Department’s agencies recognise. delivering the commitments made in the 2007 White [271924] Paper, Delivering a Sustainable Railway on smart ticketing; and if he will make a statement. [273835] Mr. Hoon: The Department for Transport’s agencies recognise the following trade unions: Paul Clark: The introduction of ITSO smartcards Driver Vehicle and Licensing Agency—Public and Commercial has been mandated in all recently let rail franchises and Services Union (PCS), will be included in the South Central franchise. Maritime and Coastguard Agency—PCS, Prospect and Association The Department for Transport, Transport for London of First Division Civil Servants (FDA), and train operators are working together on the acceptance Highways Agency—PCS, Prospect and FDA, of Oyster Pay As You Go at London train stations and Driving Standards Agency—PCS, the acceptance of ITSO Smartcards on Oyster equipment. Vehicle and Operator Services Agency—PCS, Prospect and Unite/Amicus Rushenden Link Road Vehicle Certification Agency—PCS and Prospect Government Car and Despatch Agency—PCS, Prospect and Derek Wyatt: To ask the Secretary of State for Unite. Transport how much funding stakeholders have committed to the Rushenden Link Road project. Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for [274799] Transport pursuant to the answer of 10 March 2009, Official Report, column 366W, on trades unions, what Paul Clark: The Homes and Communities Agency office facilities his Department provides for the (HCA) and South East England Development Agency exclusive use of each recognised trade union; and what (SEEDA) jointly committed a total of £12 million for the notional annual value of such provision is. [271925] 649W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 650W

Mr. Hoon: The Department for Transport, the Driver Joan Ruddock: Since 2000, fuel poverty at a sub-regional and Vehicle Licensing Agency, the Vehicle and Operator level is only available for 2003, for England. The data Services Agency, the Driving Standards Agency and the for fuel poverty levels for 2003 come from the Fuel Maritime and Coastguard Agency provide trade unions Poverty Indicator dataset available online at: with office facilities for exclusive use. http://www.fuelpovertyindicator.co.uk/ The notional annual value of such provision is £81,231, The following table shows estimated fuel poverty levels for each local authority in England in 2003: ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Number

Carbon Emissions: Housing Allerdale 2,700 Barrow in Furness 2,200 Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Blackburn with Darwen 3,900 and Climate Change what funding is in place to Blackpool 4,400 encourage the construction of zero-carbon homes. Bolton 7,100 [249774] Burnley 2,700 Bury 4,700 Joan Ruddock [holding answer 20 January 2009]: The Carlisle 2,900 following initiatives currently provide financial support Chester 3,100 to encourage the construction of zero carbon homes: Chorley 2,600 Stamp Duty Land Tax Exemption—Stamp Duty relief for Congleton 2,200 zero carbon homes was announced in Budget 2007 to act as an Copeland 2,100 incentive to developers of new zero carbon homes. The exemption Crewe and Nantwich 3,000 covers the first acquisition of a zero carbon home costing up to Eden 1,500 £500,000. For homes costing in excess of £500,000 there will be a reduction of £15,000. The exemption is in place for all new Ellesmere Port and Neston 2,100 homes for a period of five years ending on 30 September 2012. Fylde 2,000 Zero Carbon Hub—The Zero Carbon Hub, a not-for-profit Halton 3,200 company limited by guarantee, was launched in June 2008 to Hyndburn 2,400 guide, monitor and coordinate the zero carbon home programme. Knowsley 4,200 In 2008-09, the Department for Communities and Local Lancaster 3,700 Government provided approximately £250,000 of grant funding Liverpool 14,200 to the Hub to help with set up costs. Macclesfield 3,700 Departmental Air Conditioning Manchester 11,900 Oldham 5,700 Pendle 2,600 Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Preston 3,600 Energy and Climate Change (1) how many of his Ribble Valley 1,400 Department’s buildings are equipped with air Rochdale 5,500 conditioning systems with greater than 250kW of Rossendale 1,800 output; how many of these systems have been inspected Salford 6,400 under the Energy Performance of Buildings Sefton 8,000 (Certificates and Inspections) (England and Wales) South Lakeland 2,800 Regulations 2007; and if he will place in the Library a South Ribble 2,500 [272145] copy of each inspection report; St Helens 4,900 (2) how much has been spent by his Department on Stockport 7,300 carrying out inspections of air conditioning systems Tameside 5,800 within departmental buildings in accordance with the Trafford 5,500 Energy Performance of Buildings (Certificates and Vale Royal 3,100 Inspections) (England and Wales) Regulations 2007. Warrington 4,800 [272146] West Lancashire 2,800 Wigan 8,300 Joan Ruddock: The Department occupies one building Wirral 9,200 which falls within the requirements of the Energy Wyre 2,900 Performance of Buildings (certificates and inspections) North West Total 187,400 (England and Wales) Regulations 2007. The cost of carrying out the inspection of the air-conditioning system Adur 1,400 was £1,437.50. A copy of the inspection report will be Arun 3,500 placed in the Libraries of the House. Ashford 2,500 Fuel Poverty Aylesbury Vale 3,600 Basingstoke and Deane 3,400 Bracknell Forest 2,200 Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Brighton and Hove 6,500 and Climate Change how many (a) people and (b) Canterbury 3,300 households were in fuel poverty in each local authority Cherwell 2,900 area in each year since 2000; and what the Chichester 2,600 Government’s target for fuel poverty reduction was in Chiltern 1,900 each such year. [274049] 651W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 652W

Number Number

Crawley 2,100 Christchurch 1,100 Dartford 2,000 Cotswold 2,100 Dover 2,900 East Devon 3,300 East Hampshire 2,400 East Dorset 1,900 Eastbourne 2,400 Exeter 2,900 Eastleigh 2,500 Forest of Dean 2,200 Elmbridge 2,700 Gloucester 2,900 Epsom and Ewell 1,400 Isles of Stilly 100 Fareham 2,400 Kennet 1,800 Gosport 1,900 Kerrier 2,700 Gravesham 2,300 Mendip 2,700 Guildford 2,800 Mid Devon 1,900 Hart 1,800 North Cornwall 2,300 Hastings 2,500 North Devon 2,400 Havant 2,800 North Dorset 1,500 Horsham 2,700 North Somerset 4,700 Isle of Wight 3,800 North Wiltshire 3,000 Lewes 2,200 Penwith 1,900 Maidstone 3,300 Plymouth 6,700 Medway 6,200 Poole 3,300 Mid Sussex 2,800 Purbeck 1,100 Milton Keynes 4,700 Restormel 2,700 Mole Valley 1,800 Salisbury 2,800 New Forest 4,000 Sedgemoor 2,900 Oxford 2,900 South Gloucestershire 5,700 Portsmouth 5,200 South Hams 2,100 Reading 3,200 South Somerset 4,000 Reigate and Banstead 2,700 Stroud 2,700 Rother 2,300 Swindon 4,400 Runnymede 1,700 Taunton Deane 2,700 Rushmoor 1,900 Teignbridge 3,200 Sevenoaks 2,500 Tewkesbury 1,900 Shepway 2,600 Torbay 3,700 Slough 2,300 Torridge 1,700 South Bucks 1,300 West Devon 1,400 South Oxfordshire 2,900 West Dorset 2,500 Southampton 5,600 West Somerset 1,000 Spelthorne 2,000 West Wiltshire 3,000 Surrey Heath 1,700 Weymouth and Portland 1,700 Swale 3,100 South West Total 128,900 Tandridge 1,700 Test Valley 2,500 Birmingham 26,500 Thanet 3,700 Bridgnorth 1,400 Tonbridge and Mailing 2,400 Bromsgrove 2,100 Tunbridge Wells 2,500 Cannock Chase 2,300 Vale of White Horse 2,500 Coventry 7,800 Waverley 2,600 Dudley 7,900 Wealden 3,300 East Staffordshire 2,900 West Berkshire 3,100 Herefordshire County of 5,000 West Oxfordshire 2,100 Lichfield 2,300 Winchester 2,400 Malvern Hills 1,900 Windsor and Maidenhead 2,900 Newcastle under Lyme 3,300 Woking 1,900 North Shropshire 1,600 Wokingham 3,000 North Warwickshire 1,600 Worthing 2,500 Nuneaton and Bedworth 3,100 Wycombe 3,400 Oswestry 1,100 South East Total 186,500 Redditch 1,900 Rugby 2,200 Bath and North East Somerset 4,100 Sandwell 7,900 Bournemouth 4,400 Shrewsbury and Atcham 2,500 Bristol City of 10,200 Solihull 4,600 Caradon 2,200 South Shropshire 1,200 Carrick 2,500 South Staffordshire 2,500 Cheltenham 2,800 Stafford 3,100 653W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 654W

Number Number

Staffordshire Moorlands 2,500 North East Derbyshire 2,500 Stoke on Trent 7,100 North Kesteven 2,500 Stratford on Avon 2,800 North West Leicestershire 2,300 Tamworth 1,800 Northampton 5,000 Telford and Wrekin 4,100 Nottingham 7,800 Walsall 6,700 Oadby and Wigston 1,300 Warwick 3,000 Rushcliffe 2,600 Wolverhampton 6,600 Rutland 900 Worcester 2,400 South Derbyshire 2,100 Wychavon 2,800 South Holland 2,200 Wyre Forest 2,500 South Kesteven 3,300 West Midlands Total 138,900 South Northamptonshire 1,900 Wellingborough 1,900 West Lindsey 2,300 Barnsley 6,300 East Midlands Total 111,900 Bradford 12,400 Calderdale 5,400 Babergh 2,200 Craven 1,500 Basildon 4,000 Doncaster 8,000 Bedford 3,600 East Riding of Yorkshire 8,500 Braintree 3,200 Hambleton 2,200 Breckland 3,300 Harrogate 3,800 Brentwood 1,600 Kingston upon Hull City of 7,300 Broadland 3,000 Kirklees 10,700 Broxbourne 1,800 Leeds 19,300 Cambridge 2,400 North East Lincolnshire 4,600 Castle Point 2,000 North Lincolnshire 4,300 Chelmsford 3,600 Richmondshire 1,200 Colchester 3,800 Rotherham 6,700 Dacorum 3,000 Ryedale 1,500 East Cambridgeshire 1,800 Scarborough 3,100 East Hertfordshire 2,800 Selby 1,900 Epping Forest 2,700 Sheffield 13,900 Fenland 2,300 Wakefield 8,700 Forest Heath 1,500 York 4,600 Great Yarmouth 2,700 Yorks and Humber Total 13,600 Harlow 1,800 Hertsmere 1,900 Huntingdonshire 3,700 Amber Valley 3,300 Ipswich 3,300 Ashfield 3,200 Kings Lynn and West Norfolk 3,900 Bassetlaw 3,000 Luton 4,400 Blaby 2,100 Maldon 1,400 Bolsover 2,100 Mid Bedfordshire 2,800 Boston 1,600 Mid Suffolk 2,300 Broxtowe 2,900 North Hertfordshire 2,700 Charnwood 3,800 North Norfolk 2,900 Chesterfield 2,800 Norwich 3,500 Corby 1,400 Peterborough 4,100 Daventry 1,700 Rochford 1,800 Derby 6,100 South Bedfordshire 2,500 Derbyshire Dales 1,900 South Cambridgeshire 2,900 East Lindsey 3,900 South Norfolk 2,900 East Northamptonshire 2,000 Southend on Sea 4,400 Erewash 3,000 St Albans 2,700 Gedling 2,900 St Edmundsbury 2,500 Harborough 1,800 Stevenage 1,900 High Peak 2,300 Suffolk Coastal 3,100 Hinckley and Bosworth 2,500 Tendring 3,900 Kettering 2,200 Three Rivers 1,700 Leicester 7,500 Thurrock 3,400 Lincoln 2,400 Uttlesford 1,600 Mansfield 2,800 Watford 1,600 Melton 1,300 Waveney 3,300 Newark and Sherwood 2,900 Welwyn Hatfield 2,100 655W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 656W

Number Number

East England Total 131,9000 North Tyneside 5,400 Redcar and Cleveland 3,800 Barking and Dagenham 3,900 Sedgefield 2,500 Barnet 6,700 South Tyneside 4,300 Bexley 5,000 Stockton on Tees 4,700 Brent 5,300 Sunderland 7,700 Bromley 6,700 Teesdale 800 Camden 4,800 Tynedale 1,600 City of London 200 Wansbeck 1,800 Croydon 7,700 Wear Valley 1,900 Ealing 6,100 North East Total 70,400 Enfield 6,000 Fuel poverty is not measured in terms of number of Greenwich 5,300 people who are fuel poor. The Government’s long-term Hackney 4,600 objective, as prefigured by s.1 of the Warm Homes and Hammersmith and Fulham 3,800 Energy Conservation Act 2000 is that, as far as reasonably Haringey 5,200 practicable, by 22 November 2016, persons in England Harrow 4,000 should not live in fuel poverty. The interim objective of Havering 5,000 the Fuel Poverty Strategy in England is that, so far as Hillingdon 4,800 reasonably practicable, the Government would seek an Hounslow 4,300 end to fuel poverty for vulnerable households by 2010. Islington 4,200 The Government set no annual targets in respect of the Kensington and Chelsea 4,100 2016 and 2010 targets. Kingston upon Thames 3,200 Lambeth 6,100 Greenhouse Gas Emissions Lewisham 5,900 Merton 4,200 Greg Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Newham 5,800 and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the Redbridge 5,200 proportion of UK (a) carbon dioxide and (b) other Richmond upon Thames 4,100 greenhouse gas emissions arising from (i) cars, (ii) Southwark 5,400 buses, (iii) all road vehicles, (iv) trains, (v) aviation and Sutton 3,900 (vi) shipping in each of the last 10 years. [266631] Tower Hamlets 3,800 Waltham Forest 5,300 Joan Ruddock: The latest 2008 provisional estimates Wandsworth 5,900 of greenhouse gas emissions were published on 26 March Westminster 5,600 2009. DEFRA is currently publishing the DECC climate London Total 162,200 change statistics; the 2008 Final UK Greenhouse Gas Emissions National Statistics may be found at the following Alnwick 900 web address: Berwick upon Tweed 800 http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/statistics/globatmos/ Blyth Valley 2,200 index.htm Castle Morpeth 1,200 The proportion of UK (a) carbon dioxide and (b) Chester le Street 1,500 other greenhouse gas emissions arising from (i) cars, (ii) Darlington 2,800 buses, (iii) all road vehicles, (iv) trains, (v) domestic Derwentside 2,500 aviation and (vi) domestic shipping in each of the last Durham 2,200 10 years, are shown in the following table. These figures Easington 2,700 have been compiled from the DECC Provisional UK Gateshead 5,600 Greenhouse Gas Emissions National Statistics. These Hartlepool 2,600 percentages are calculated on an ‘End User’ basis, i.e. Middlesbrough 3,800 the emissions are reallocated from the production and Newcastle upon Tyne 7,300 distribution of energy to the users of that energy.

Percentage contribution of specified transport categories towards total emissions of carbon dioxide and all greenhouse gases 1998-2007 by end-user Percentage Gas/sector 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

(a) Carbon dioxide

(i) Cars 16.0 16.6 16.3 16.0 16.9 16.2 16.1 16.1 15.7 15.9 (ii) Buses 0.7 0.6 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.6 0.6 0.6 (iii) All road vehicles 24.4 24.9 24.4 24.0 25.4 24.7 24.6 24.9 24.6 25.2 (iv) Trains 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.8 (v) Domestic aviation 0.3 0.4 0.4 0.4 0.4 0.4 0.4 0.5 0.5 0.4 (vi) Domestic shipping 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.5 0.5 0.8 0.7 0.9 1.1 1.0 657W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 658W

Percentage contribution of specified transport categories towards total emissions of carbon dioxide and all greenhouse gases 1998-2007 by end-user Percentage Gas/sector 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

(b) Greenhouse gases (i) Cars 12.9 13.7 13.7 13.6 14.4 13.9 13.9 13.9 13.6 13.8 (ii) Buses 0.5 0.5 0.4 0.4 0.5 0.4 0.4 0.5 0.5 0.5 (iii) All road vehicles 19.6 20.6 20.4 20.4 21.5 21.2 21.2 21.5 21.3 21.8 (iv) Trains 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.7 0.7 0.6 0.6 0.7 0.7 0.7 (v) Domestic aviation 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.4 0.4 0.4 0.4 0.4 0.4 (vi) Domestic shipping 0.6 0.6 0.5 0.4 0.4 0.7 0.6 0.7 1.0 0.9

Housing: Standards of these were vulnerable households (containing children, the elderly, or a person who is disabled or long-term Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy sick). and Climate Change how many buildings in each of the In England, there were around 2.4 million fuel poor last five years have been constructed to PassivHaus households, of which around 1.9 million were vulnerable. standards. [249776] This represents a rise of 900,000 households from 2005 to 2006 and a rise of 700,000 vulnerable households Joan Ruddock [holding answer 20 January 2009]: over the same period. There is currently only one building completed to the PassivHaus Standard as certified by the Building Research As fuel prices continue to rise faster than incomes, Establishment (BRE) in the UK—Canolfan Hyddgen the proportion of households in fuel poverty continued in Machynlleth, Wales. This was designed and constructed to increase. Projections indicate that for 2008, a further by JPW Construction. 1.2 million households in England might be in fuel poverty. Low Carbon Buildings Programme More recent progress will be reported in the Seventh Annual Progress Report on Fuel Poverty to be published later this year. Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what the budget of the Low Carbon Buildings Programme Phase 1 is; and how Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy much has been spent on Phase 1 to date. [271991] and Climate Change what research his Department has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on the effect of Mr. Mike O’Brien: The budget for the Low Carbon the Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000 Buildings Programme Phase 1 is £36 million. Currently on fuel poverty since July 2008; and if he will make a the total grant spend is £12,895,587.50. In addition statement. [274030] £3.4 million has been spent on administration and certification in relation to the programme. Joan Ruddock: DECC has not commissioned research on the effect of the Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Peers’ Interests Act 2000. However, I announced a review of fuel poverty during evidence to the EFRA Select Committee on Mr. Hoban: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy 14 January 2009. and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 10 March 2009, Official Report, column 409W, on The Review is examining whether existing measures Peers’ interests, on what date the proposed meeting was to tackle fuel poverty could be made more effective. It is cancelled. [266356] also considering whether new policies should be introduced to help us make further progress towards our goals, Mr. Mike O’Brien: We were informed of the cancellation particularly in light of market conditions and our aims on 31 January 2009. to reduce carbon emissions. The initial findings of the Fuel Poverty Review are Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000 expected in the summer of 2009.

Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what progress the Government and Climate Change how many officials in his (a) made during 2008 and (b) has made to date in Department at each pay band have responsibility for 2009 towards meeting the targets in the Warm Homes the (a) formulation and (b) implementation of policy and Energy Conservation Act 2000; and if he will make on the Warm Homes and Energy Conservation a statement. [274029] Act 2000; what other posts in his Department and its predecessors each such official has held; and if he will Joan Ruddock: The Government’s UK Sixth Annual make a statement. [274051] Progress Report on Fuel Poverty was published on 2 October 2008. It shows that, in 2006, the latest period for which figures are available, there were around 3.5 million Joan Ruddock: DECC has the following officials by households in fuel poverty across the UK, an increase pay band with responsibility for fuel poverty and the of one million households since 2005. Around 2.75 million Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000. 659W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 660W

The Special Fund and other central Government Number funds are provided in addition to local funding, for SCS Pay Band 1 2 example from local authorities, health bodies and charitable Grade 6 1 trusts. The Government believe that local decision makers Grade 7 5 are best placed to assess local needs, and Government SEO 1 expect the majority of funding to the sexual violence HEO 6 voluntary sector to come from local sources. EO 3 Nevertheless, the Government recognise the ongoing AO 1 problems experienced by the sexual violence sector, particularly in respect of accessing local funding. Officials DECC is planning to supplement the team with two across Government are working to consider what more additional Grade 7 posts. In addition support is provided we can do, based on the recommendations made by the when required from other parts of DECC. Home Office’s Stakeholder Advisory Group on Sexual Violence and Abuse Funding Sub-group. My Department has commissioned a research project WOMEN AND EQUALITY to help improve our understanding of the stability and sustainability of the violence against women voluntary Departmental Computers sector, which includes Rape Crisis Centres (members of Rape Crisis England and Wales). We are keen to develop a robust evidence base to help Government better support Mr. Hoban: To ask the Minister for Women and this sector. Equality how many laptop computers have been provided to (a) Ministers, (b) special advisers and (c) civil servants in the Government Equalities Office since its creation; and at what cost. [268262] INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Maria Eagle: The Government Equalities Office was established on 12 October 2007. Since then a total of Developing Countries: Loans 21 laptops have been purchased for use by civil servants only. The total cost of providing these laptops was John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for £39,032. International Development how much the Government Equality: Regulation has received in interest on loans to developing countries in each year since 2004. [269086]

Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister for Women Mr. Thomas: The Government, through the Department and Equality what (a) primary and (b) secondary for International Development, has received the following legislation has imposed new burdens on local amounts of loan interest from developing countries in authorities in relation to equality and diversity since the financial years 2004-05 to 2007-08: 1997. [273392] Low income Middle income John Healey: I have been asked to reply. countries1 countries1 Total

This information could be provided only at 2004-05 508,180 2,263,040 2,771,220 disproportionate cost. However, the Government are 2005-06 28,821 1,724,631 1,753,452 committed to ensuring that all new burdens falling on 2006-07 11,401 1,694,981 1,706,382 local authorities are fully and properly funded. Any 2007-08 11,102 1,396,409 1,407,511 policy which increases the cost of providing local authority Total 559,504 7,079,061 7,638,565 services is subject to the new burdens doctrine and, 1 ‘Developing countries’ has been interpreted to mean low income and middle where appropriate, funding is provided through the income countries as currently defined by the Organisation for Economic formula grant system or through specific grants. Co-operation and Development’s Development Assistance Committee. The majority of these amounts (92.7 per cent.) refer Rape: Victim Support Schemes to middle income countries; the remainder is for low income countries (7.3 per cent.). A substantial proportion Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister for Women of these interest payments refer to a reducing debt and Equality what recent assessment she has made of portfolio of old investments by CDC. the adequacy of funding arrangements for rape crisis These figures do not include interest payments to the centres. [273395] Export Credit Guarantee Department on rescheduled defaulted commercial credits that were guaranteed by Maria Eagle: In March 2008, the Minister for Women them. and Equality announced a £1.1 million Special Fund to Rape Crisis Centres (members of Rape Crisis England and Wales). This was a targeted response to specific Developing Countries: Water evidence from Rape Crisis England and Wales that their members faced financial difficulties. Following evidence Malcolm Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for from The Survivors’ Trust, the terms of this year’s International Development what plans he has to £1.6million Special Fund have been expanded to ensure facilitate international support for the Global that members of both Rape Crisis (England and Wales) Framework for Action for water and sanitation in the and The Survivors’ Trust can apply. next 12 months. [274939] 661W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 662W

Mr. Michael Foster: The Global Framework for Action Sri Lanka: Overseas Aid was announced by my hon. Friend the Minister of State (Mr. Thomas), on behalf of the UK and the Netherlands, Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for at the partnership event on water and sanitation, during International Development what aid he has made the United Nations High-Level Event on the millennium available to Sri Lanka for 2009-10; and to which development goals in September 2008. Since then, a projects such aid (a) has been and (b) is to be number of steps have been taken to promote the Global allocated. [275080] Framework for Action. DFID is now working closely with UNICEF, WHO, Mr. Michael Foster: Since September 2008, the the World Bank, the African Ministers’ Council on Department for International Development (DFID) Water (AMCOW), the Netherlands and others to refine has allocated £7.5 million of humanitarian assistance to the operational aspects of the Global Framework for Sri Lanka. Of this, £1.96 million remains on hand to Action. To this end, DFID is hosting a working meeting respond rapidly to needs on the ground. in May 2009 to address these issues in more detail and In the 2009-10 financial year DFID has made available: to help define a more detailed process for promoting £500,000 to the United Nations Children’s Fund for and implementing the Global Framework for Action water and sanitation provision and child protection over the coming 12 months. activities; £500,000 to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees for the emergency airlift of Natural Disasters: Monitoring 5,000 tents for internally displaced persons; £550,000 to the United Nations Operations to provide 1,400 emergency Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for shelters together with water and sanitation provision International Development if he will assess the merits for at least 11,500 IDPs; and £650,000 to the International of increased use of satellite imagery to monitor the Organisation for Migration to establish, equip and staff humanitarian conditions of those affected by natural 10 emergency mobile health clinics in IDP camps and disasters. [273837] provide emergency transport and logistics services.

Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Development (DFID) makes full use of UNOSAT, the BUSINESS, ENTERPRISE AND REGULATORY UN programme which provides the international REFORM community with access to satellite imagery for use both in humanitarian relief and disaster prevention, on a Fireworks: Noise day-to-day basis and in particular during humanitarian emergencies. For example, DFID used it to monitor the effects of Hurricane Ike and Cyclone Nargis. Paul Rowen: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for Reform whether he has had recent discussions with the International Development if he will raise at the Secretary of State for Communities and Local United Nations the potential for increased use of Government on the reduction of the decibel level of satellite imagery better to monitor the humanitarian fireworks permitted under regulation 8 of the Fireworks Regulations 2004; and if he will make a situation of those affected by natural disasters. [273838] statement. [274422] Mr. Michael Foster: The UN is already making increased Mr. Thomas [holding answer 11 May 2009]: Ihave use of satellite imagery to monitor humanitarian situations. had no such discussions recently. The UN has developed the UNOSAT programme which provides the international community with access to Israel: EU External Trade satellite imagery for use both in humanitarian relief and disaster prevention. Dr. Starkey: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Overseas Aid Reform what steps his Department has taken to ensure that individuals or companies which market or sell Malcolm Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for within the UK properties in Israeli settlements in East International Development what priority is accorded Jerusalem, the West Bank or the Golan inform to the provision of (a) water and sanitation and (b) potential purchasers of the Foreign and health and education in his Department’s decision- Commonwealth Office’s recently issued advice on the making processes on aid distribution. [274941] risks of such purchases; what steps the Government is taking to publicise that advice; and what steps the Mr. Michael Foster: The provision of water and Government is taking to enforce the legal sanitation and health and education are millennium responsibilities of those who sell or market the development goals (MDGs). The UK Government are properties. [271618] committed to achieving the MDGs and the Department for International Development’s (DFID) Third White Mr. Thomas [holding answer 30 April 2009]: The Paper stated that water and sanitation and health, education Foreign and Commonwealth Office advises UK citizens and social protection are essential services. The importance that there are risks involved in purchasing property in of improving these services is reflected in DFID’s Israeli settlements on land considered to be occupied commitment to spend at least half its bilateral financial under international law in East Jerusalem, the West support on them. Bank or the Golan. Prospective purchasers should be 663W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 664W aware that future peace deals could have consequences The group is one of the key mechanisms by which for properties purchased in these settlements. The advice government policy and practice with respect to the is available on the FCO website. scientific validation of alternative methods is co-ordinated Legislation specifically regulating the conduct of estate by officials. The group also provides a means for agents in the UK is not considered to apply to overseas Government Departments and Agencies to work with property transactions. However, estate agents marketing the National Centre for the Replacement, Refinement overseas properties do have legal obligations to prospective and Reduction of Animals in Research (NC3Rs). purchasers under the Consumer Protection from Unfair As part of its work, the group ensures that the United Trading Regulations 2008. The Regulations oblige Kingdom representative to the European Centre for the businesses not to mislead consumers through acts or Validation of Alternative Methods (ECVAM) Scientific omissions in their commercial practices. Failure to inform Advisory Committee (ESAC) is briefed in advance of prospective purchasers of the risks involved in purchasing meetings and that developments at ESAC and ECVAM properties in the settlements could potentially amount are given due weight by Government Departments and to a misleading omission under the Regulations where regulatory agencies. Information on the validation of this was likely to cause the average consumer to make a alternative methods within Europe is provided through different choice. The Regulations are primarily enforced the United Kingdom representative to ESAC. Relevant by local trading standards departments. papers are distributed to members of the group as soon as they become available.

LEADER OF THE HOUSE Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Furniture the Home Department what proportion of Government funding for the National Centre for the Grant Shapps: To ask the Leader of the House how Replacement, Refinement and Reduction of Animals much her Office spent on furniture in each of the last in Research was provided by her Department in the last five years. [273707] 12 months. [272903] Chris Bryant: Because the Office of the Leader of the House of Commons joined the Cabinet Office in June Mr. Malik: In 2007-08, the latest year for which 2007 separate figures are not available for expenditure accounts are available, the Home Office provided £250,000 on furniture in the Leader of the House’s Office. towards the funding of the National Centre for the Replacement, Refinement and Reduction of Animals in Information prior to 2007 is available only at Research (NC3RS). This represented 9.5 per cent. of disproportionate cost. total Government funding for the centre. The Home Office has also provided £250,000 funding in 2008-09 HOME DEPARTMENT and 2009-10. Animal Experiments Asylum Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department which departments participate Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for the in the inter-departmental group on the replacement, Home Department how many asylum seekers have refinement and reduction of animals in research been waiting 12 months or more for a decision on their established by her Department; and if she will make a case; and how many of these (a) have sought permission to work and (b) have been granted statement. [272901] permission to work under the provisions of the 2003 Mr. Malik: The Group is led by Home Office officials EU Reception Directive. [273980] and has members from the Department of Health, the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Mr. Woolas: The requested information is not collated the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost Reform, the Food Standards Agency, the Health and through examination of individual case records. Safety Executive, the Medicines and Healthcare products The United Kingdom Border Agency’s asylum targets Regulatory Agency, the National Centre for the are based on case conclusion times and the agency is Replacement, Refinement and Reduction of Animals in committed to fully concluding 90 per cent. of new Research, the Health Protection Agency, the Defence asylum applications within six months by the end of 2011. Science and Technology Laboratory, the Veterinary Medicines Directorate and the Pesticides Safety Directorate. Asylum: Females Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what mechanisms the inter- Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for departmental group on the replacement, refinement the Home Department how many female asylum and reduction of animals in research (3Rs) uses to seekers were interviewed with their children present ensure that other UK regulatory bodies take account of during the first or subsequent substantive interview in (a) 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09. [272601] progress made in relation to the 3Rs. [272902] Mr. Malik: The Inter Departmental Group on the Mr. Woolas: The UK Border Agency does not record 3Rs (IDG3Rs) was originally established by the Home statistics in relation to the attendance of mothers with Office to improve the application of the 3Rs and promote their children during the substantive interview on any research into alternatives, reduce the need for toxicity of our internal databases. The information could be testing through better sharing of data, and encourage obtained only at disproportionate cost through the the validation and acceptance of alternatives. examination of individual case files. 665W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 666W

Departmental Buildings leave the centre. The specific information is not readily available and could be provided only at disproportionate Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for the cost by examining each individual record. Home Department how much her Department spent Entry Clearances on building maintenance in each of the last five years; and if she will make a statement. [274560] Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Woolas: I refer the hon. Member to my answer the Home Department what recent reports her given to the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Scott) Department has received on allegations that persons on 27 January 2009, Official Report, column 282W. have been obliged to sign applications for leave to remain under duress by their spouses; and if she will Departmental Furniture make a statement. [273047]

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr. Woolas: The information requested could be Home Department how much her Department’s obtained only by the detailed examination of individual agencies spent on furniture in each of the last five case records at disproportionate cost, all relevant years. [273767] information, including an allegation of duress if made would be considered prior to any decision being taken Mr. Woolas: The Department’s expenditure on furniture on an application. and fittings can be found in Note 14 (Tangible Fixed Food Assets) to the Home Office Resource Accounts which are published annually. The latest published figures are for the year 2007-08 which can be found at the Department’s Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for the website: Home Department if she will make an estimate of the (a) monetary value and (b) quantity of waste food http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/resource-accounts- 07-08 disposed of from her Department’s premises in the last 12 months. [273436] The Stationery Office publication references for previous of the Resource Accounts for previous years are: Mr. Woolas: This specific information is not held Home Office Resource Accounts 2006/07 (HC 1006); centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate Home Office Resource Accounts 2005/06 (HC 124); cost. Nevertheless my Department records its total waste Home Office Resource Accounts 2004/05 (HC 826). arisings as required for the annual Sustainable Development The Home Office 2008-09 Resource Accounts will be in Government Report, and is working to reduce total available in July. waste from its premises. The expenditure incurred by Criminal Records Bureau Fuels: Transport and Identity and Passport Service can be found in their published annual reports and accounts which can be Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the obtained from the Stationery Office. Home Department how many foreign-registered heavy Departmental Stationery goods vehicles carrying (a) gas, (b) oil, (c) liquified petroleum gas and (d) petroleum have entered the UK in each of the last 12 months; and what checks the UK Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the Border Agency carries out on the drivers of these Home Department how much her Department has vehicles. [273271] spent on branded stationery and gifts for (a) internal and (b) external promotional use in each of the last Jacqui Smith: The Department for Transport are five years. [273787] responsible for monitoring the movement of goods across the UK border. This information is not centrally Mr. Woolas: The requested information is not held available. centrally in the Home Office and cannot be provided without incurring disproportionate cost. UKBA conducts freight searching operations at each of the Juxtaposed locations in Northern France, as well Detainees: Children as ports of entry around the country. Drivers and their passengers are required to present documentation in the Sir Peter Soulsby: To ask the Secretary of State for form of either a passport, or an ID card to an immigration the Home Department how many children of asylum officer to verify their identity and this applies to everyone seekers (a) had and (b) had not begun to receive a seeking entry to the UK without exception. standard programme of child immunisation before Once the immigration officer is satisfied with the entering immigration removal centres in the last passenger they are allowed to proceed to the freight 12 months; and how many of those who had not begun search area where their vehicle may be subject to further to receive immunisations have subsequently started a checks relating to their load as well as a physical search programme of immunisations at an immigration of the vehicle by trained search teams. removal centre. [272840] Gateway Group Mr. Woolas: Health care at all three immigration removal centres where children can be detained includes Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the an undertaking to continue with childhood vaccination Home Department when she expects the Gateway programmes already commenced in the UK until they Group established to oversee all requests from her 667W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 668W

Department and its agencies for the collection of data involved in the planning for the border and setting outside its annual data requirement processes to begin consistent practices across port-based staff in forces its work. [273017] across England and Wales.

Jacqui Smith: The Gateway Group met for the first Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for the time on 28 April. It is chaired by the Home Office’s Home Department pursuant to the answer of 28 April permanent secretary and includes representatives from 2009, Official Report, column 1187W, on immigration ACPO, APA, HMIC and NPIA and the independent controls, when she expects the information on the reducing bureaucracy advocate Jan Berry. resources required by the UK Border Agency to be The Gateway Group will meet quarterly. finalised. [274170]

Identity Cards: Finance Mr. Woolas: The resource required to deliver the points based system which has five tiers, four of which are currently in operation includes both internal and John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for the commercial costs. It is not possible to disaggregate the Home Department what estimate she has made of the resources required to operate individual tiers. The sums to be allocated to the introduction of identity commercial costs of implementing PBS costs as a whole cards in each of the next six financial years. [271774] will not be known until spring 2010. Mr. Malik: The latest projected estimates for the cost International Police Assistance Board of issuing identity cards are published in the sixth National Identity Service cost report presented to Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Parliament on 6 May 2009. A copy of the report may Home Department what timetable has been set for the also be found at: establishment of the International Police Assistance http://www.ips.gov.uk/identity/downloads/docA_IPS_cost_ Board; and what goals she plans to set for the board. reportpercent202009_v11_BM.pdf [273029] I would refer the hon. Member to that report. Jacqui Smith: The International Police Assistance Immigration Board was established in July 2008. It is a senior cross- departmental and senior police service advisory body, Mr. Dhanda: To ask the Secretary of State for the chaired by the Association of Chief Police Officers. Its Home Department when a decision will be made in the aims are to better co-ordinate delivery of HMG cross- case with Home Office reference G1082747; and if she departmental initiatives and police service professional will make a statement. [274727] interest overseas and to develop a strategic overview of UK aims in international police assistance. Mr. Woolas: I wrote to the hon. Member on 27 April with the latest position on the case of G1082747 and Metropolitan Police: Information and Communications this remains the position. Technology

Immigration Controls Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make an assessment of the adequacy of the IT resources provided to Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Metropolitan Police officers in policing fraud. [273253] Home Department what recent proposals on improving existing collaborative arrangements between Jacqui Smith: The Government allocate funding to (a) (b) forces at the UK border and police forces and police authorities as a whole. The allocation of resources the UK Border Agency have been (i) made and (ii) is a matter for the Metropolitan Commissioner and the agreed to; and what timetable has been established for Metropolitan Police Authority, who are responsible for implementation of the proposals agreed to. [273027] assessing local needs. Jacqui Smith: The creation of the UK Border Agency The Government have also specifically allocated allows us to establish a single and strong border force £3.5 million to the Police Central e-crime Unit (PCeU) bringing together immigration and customs controls at over three years from 2008-09, with the Metropolitan our ports. Police Service contributing £3.9 million over the same three year period. One of the main areas of work for the The role of the police and of other agencies in PCeU will be to support the National Fraud Reporting contributing to border security continues to be a high Centre in tackling electronic fraud. priority for us. This year we will build on the high level Memorandum Police: Disclosure of Information of Understanding between the UK Border Agency and the police published in 2008, in order to improve, strengthen Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the and better coordinate border security arrangements. Home Department what reports she has received of This will include increased opportunities for joint working allegations of information about environmental including joint threat assessments and operations as campaign organisations being passed by the police to well as secondments of UK Border Agency and police energy companies. [273278] staff. The National Coordinator (Protect), on behalf of the Jacqui Smith: The Home Office has received no such Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO), is closely reports. 669W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 670W

Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the where applications are made at the same time. Applications Home Department whether any members of the police will be free of charge to unpaid volunteers. have met (a) representatives of EDF Energy, (b) The regulatory impact assessment for the Scheme representatives of other energy companies, (c) Thierry indicated that there would be some additional cost to Lorho and (d) representatives of Kargus to discuss (i) volunteer organisers arising from the processing of Greenpeace and (ii) other environmental campaign applications by CRB-registered or umbrella bodies, some organisations. [273279] of whom charge a fee, but this is mitigated by the availability of a free on-line check to employers and Jacqui Smith: The Home Office do not hold this users of volunteers once an individual is registered with information. Meetings held by the police with organisations the scheme. are operational matters for the police force concerned. Government recognise the vital role volunteers have The police may provide protective security advice to in delivering sports activities. The Home Office, Department any organisation where necessary. for Children Schools and Families and Department of Police: Procurement Health have been working with stakeholders, including sports and voluntary sector bodies and the Department for Culture Media and Sport to ensure that their interests Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the and concerns are reflected within the new scheme. Home Department what steps her Department is taking to ensure that police force procurement Part of this work will include issuing sector specific processes are coordinated nationally; and what guidance. timetable has been set for achieving such coordination. [273022]

Jacqui Smith: The Association of Chief Police Officers INNOVATION, UNIVERSITIES AND SKILLS (ACPO), with support from the National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA), has recently completed a Apprentices detailed analysis of the police service’s spending on goods and services across all 43 forces in England and Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales and the British Transport Police. This is the first Innovation, Universities and Skills how many persons review of its kind in the public sector. who completed apprenticeships were unemployed one As a result of the review, ACPO and the NPIA are year after the end of the apprenticeship in each of the taking forward two areas of improvement: last three years. [274058] Working with suppliers to increase standardisation of policy, Mr. Simon [holding answer 8 May 2009]: An processes and cost drivers (such as the removal of onerous terms and conditions). apprenticeship is a work-based programme and apprentices must have a job or a work placement as a condition of Identifying areas of spend that are interchangeable with other providers/suppliers that show the greatest potential benefit completing their apprenticeship framework. Many will from further collaboration and standardisation. already be in permanent employment prior to the end The NPIA and ACPO are finalising the plan for of their apprenticeship. implementation of these improvement areas to capture Information on the immediate destinations of the most significant efficiency improvements at both a apprenticeships upon completion of their apprenticeship national and regional level. is not readily available. This type of information will in future be collected using the framework for excellence Vetting: Scotland learner destination survey with the first results for all FE colleges and work based learning providers available Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the in spring 2009. The survey will be conducted nine Home Department in respect of how many people each months after the end of the academic year and so will police force in England and Wales has provided not relate exactly to 12 months after the completion of information to assist with basic disclosure checks being the apprenticeship. undertaken by Disclosure Scotland. [273255] The Government are committed to rebuilding apprenticeships. Since 1997 we have witnessed a renaissance Jacqui Smith: This information is not held centrally. in Apprenticeships from a low point of 65,000 to a record 225,000 apprenticeship starts in 2007/08. Completion Vetting: Voluntary Work rates are also at a record high with 64 per cent. successfully completing an apprenticeship—up from 37 per cent. in Mr. Andy Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2004/05. Home Department what assessment she has made of the effect of the introduction of the Independent Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Safeguarding Authority on trends in the levels of Innovation, Universities and Skills how many volunteering in sport; and if she will make a statement. apprenticeships were terminated by an employer on [272405] economic grounds in each of the last 12 months. [274059] Mr. Malik: There is no reason to believe that the work of the ISA will have an adverse impact on Mr. Simon [holding answer 8 May 2009]: We do not volunteering. A single form will be available for applications currently hold data centrally about the total number of to the new Vetting and Barring Scheme and for Criminal apprentices made redundant. Working with the Learning Records Bureau disclosures, and a single fee charged and Skills Council (LSC) we have established a matching 671W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 672W service to help apprentices at risk of redundancy to find Mr. Simon: Two members of DIUS staff are on loan alternative employment and to complete their to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office working as apprenticeship. More generally, providers and the LSC part of the Science and Innovation Network and based have procedures to advise and relocate apprentices, in in posts overseas. cases where providers or employers fail, to help ensure Departmental Mobile Phones that they are able to continue in work and complete their apprenticeship. The £140 million package announced by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for an Mr. Hoban: To ask the Secretary of State for additional 35,000 apprenticeship places will help fund Innovation, Universities and Skills how many (a) new provision in both the public sector and private BlackBerry devices and (b) mobile telephones have sector, and will extend the opportunities available to been lost by (i) Ministers, (ii) special advisers and (iii) people facing redundancy. civil servants in his Department in each year since its The Government are committed to rebuilding creation. [274468] apprenticeships. Since 1997 we have witnessed a renaissance in apprenticeships from a low point of 65,000 to a Mr. Simon: According to our records, there have been record 225,000 apprenticeship starts in 2007/08. Completion no recorded instances of mobile phones (which were rates are also at a record high with 64 per cent. successfully provided by the Department) being lost. completing an apprenticeship—up from 37 per cent. in Our records show a total of six BlackBerry devices 2004/05. have been lost and not recovered. Two were lost in 2007 and four in 2008. There have been no reports of any Departmental Buildings BlackBerry devices being lost in 2009. All these devices were lost by civil servants. There were no losses by either Ministers or special advisers. Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Innovation, Universities and Skills what facilities there Departmental Stationery are in his Department’s buildings for staff to stay overnight. [274063] Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Innovation, Universities and Skills how much his Mr. Simon: The Department’s building services are Department spent on the purchase of (a) recycled provided through the Department for Business, Enterprise office supplies in the last 12 months and (b) printer ink and Regulatory Reform (BERR) and the Department cartridges in each year since its creation. [274576] for Children, Schools and Families (DCSF), which manage the buildings that DIUS occupies. Mr. Simon: The Department has spent as follows: The National Measurement Office (NMO) occupies (a) Office paper and envelopes are the main recycled space in Teddington that is owned by DIUS but managed office supplies in the Department. Approximately £7,200 by the NMO. per year is spent on these items in London. A significant Beyond being open for normal use in some cases, amount of paper is also used at the DIUS office in there are no overnight facilities in any of these buildings. Sheffield, but the cost is not separately identifiable because office paper was provided by the Department for Children, Schools and Families as building manager Departmental Furniture until recently. (b) Printer ink cartridges: Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007/08: £39,586 Innovation, Universities and Skills how much each of his Department’s agencies spent on furniture in each of 2008/09: £106,915. the last five years. [273793] Learning and Skills Council

Mr. Simon: The National Measurement Office (NMO) Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for and Intellectual Property Office (IPO) have spent on Innovation, Universities and Skills what offices are (a) furniture over the last five years as follows. owned and (b) leased by (i) the Learning and Skills Council, (ii) his Department and (iii) the Higher March to April National Measurement Intellectual Property Education Funding Council for England. [274233] financial years Office (NMO) (£) Office (IPO) (£)

2004-05 0 51,143 Mr. Simon: The information requested is provided in 2005-06 0 52,961 the following lists. 2006-07 1,044 239,748 The Learning and Skills Council 2007-08 1,801 200,800 Woburn Court, 2 Railton Road, Woburn Road Industrial 2008-09 17,084 220,235 Estate, Kempston, MK42 7PN Total 19,929 764,887 Pacific House, Imperial Way, Reading, RG2 OTF NTI Building, 15 Bartholomew Row, Birmingham, B5 5JU Departmental Manpower Units 6 and 7 Castle Court, 2 Castlegate Business Park, Dudley, DY1 4RD Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Provincial House, 25 Oxford Road, Bournemouth, BH8 8EY Innovation, Universities and Skills how many of his Stuart House, St. Johns Street, City Road, Peterborough, PE1 Department’s staff work overseas; and in which 5DD countries such staff are located. [274067] Dalton House, Dalton Way, Middlewich, CW10 OHU 673W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 674W

Allergate House, Belmont Business Park, Belmont, Durham, Moongate House, 5th Avenue Business Park, Team Valley, DH1 1TW Gateshead, NE11 OHF Oak Tree Court, Binley Business Park, Harry Weston Road, St. Lawrence House, 29-31 Broad Street, Bristol, BS1 2HF Coventry, CV3 2UN Mercury House, 4 Manchester Road, Bradford, BD5 OQL Venture/Progress House, Regents Court, Guard Street, Workington, The Bora Building, Westlea Campus, Westlea Down, Swindon, CA14 4EW SN5 7EZ 1 Mallard Way, Pullman Business Park, Derby, DE24 8GX All of the LSC’s properties are leased. Foliot House, Budshead Road, Plymouth, PL6 5XR DIUS Penhaligon House, Princes Street, Truro, TR1 1DZ DIUS occupies office space at the following buildings: Richmond Court, Emperor Way, Exeter Business Park, Exeter, Kingsgate House, 66-74 Victoria Street, London SW1E 6SW EX1 3QS Moorfoot, Sheffield, S1 4PQ Redwing House, Hedgerows Business Park, Colchester Road, Castle View House, East Lane, Runcorn, WA7 2GJ Chelmsford, CM2 5PB Mowden Hall, Staindrop Road, Darlington, DL3 9BG Conway House, 33-35 Worcester Street, Gloucester, GL1 3AJ Polaris House, North Star Avenue, Swindon, Wiltshire, SN2 1SZ Eagle Point, Segensworth, Fareham, PO15 5TD These buildings are neither owned nor leased by 5 Brook Court, Whittington Hall, Whittington Road, Worcester, WR5 2ZX DIUS. They are shared under agreements with BERR (for Kingsgate House), DCSF (for Moorfoot, Castle Grosvenor Road, 45 Grosvenor Road, St. Albans, AL1 3AW View House and Mowden Hall) and the Research Councils 4 Earls Court, Henry Boot Way, Hull, HU4 7DY (for Polaris House). 26 Kings Hill Avenue, Kings Hill, West Malling, ME19 4AE Higher Education Funding Council for England Citigate, Longridge Road, Preston, PR2 5BQ Northavon House, Coldharbour Lane, Bristol BS16 1QD 17a Meridian East, Meridian Business Park, Leicester, LE19 12th Floor, Centre Point, 103 New Oxford Street, London 1UU WC1A 1DD Alpha Court, Unit 1B, Alpha Court Business Park, Kingsley Both of the above properties are leased. Road, Lincoln, LN6 3TA Train to Gain Programme Centre Point, 103 New Oxford Street, London, WC1A 1DR Boardman House, 64 The Broadway, Stratford, London, E15 Alan Keen: To ask the Secretary of State for 1NT Innovation, Universities and Skills how many people in Dumayne House, 1 Fox Lane, Palmers Green, London, N13 each constituency participated in training under the 4AB Train to Gain programme since the programme’s Canius House, 1 Scarbrook Road, Croydon, CRO 1SQ inception. [274938] Central House, 3 Lampton Road, Hounslow, TW3 1HY Mr. Simon: I have placed a copy of a table, showing Arndale House, Arndale Centre, Manchester, M4 3AQ Train to Gain starts in each parliamentary constituency The Plaza, Old Hall Street, Liverpool, L3 9QJ since the inception of Train to Gain in the House Libraries. Latimer House, Langford Business Park, Langford Locks, Kidlington, 0X5 1GG Cheylesmore House North, Quinton Road, Cheylesmore, Coventry, CV1 2WT TREASURY Cheylesmore House South, Quinton Road, Cheylesmore, Coventry, Banks: Finance CV1 2WT Security House, Mile Lane, Cheylesmore, Coventry, CV21 Ms Keeble: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2NL what (1) recent discussions he has had with Lakeside 500, Old Chapel Way, Broadland Business Park, representatives of UK Financial Investments Ltd. on Norwich, NR7 OWG the policy of (a) RBS and (b) HBOS on maintaining Royal Pavilion, Summerhouse Road, Moulton Park Industrial credit lines to existing commercial customers; [264831] Estate, Northampton, NN3 6BJ (2) what recent discussions he has had with 7 Pioneer Business Park, Amy Johnson Way, Clifton Moorgate, representatives of UK Financial Investments Ltd. on York, YO30 4TN the approach of (a) RBS and (b) HBOS in C/O MLS Business Centre, City Gate East, Toll House Hill, maintaining their existing loan portfolios. [264832] Nottingham,NG1 5FY Ian Pearson: The Government have regular discussions Hollinswood House, Suite G1, Stafford Court, Telford, TF3 with UK Financial Investments Ltd. (UKFI). The 3DD framework agreement sets out the relationship between Kingston House, Blackbrook Park Avenue, Taunton, TA1 HM Treasury and UKFI, and is available at: 2PX http://www.ukfi.gov.uk/ The Straddle, Victoria Quays, Wharf Street, Sheffield, S2 5SY Festival Way, Festival Park, Stoke-on-Trent, ST1 5TQ Gordon Banks: To ask the Chancellor of the Felaw Maltings, 42 Felaw Street, Ipswich, IP2 8SJ Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 9 March 2009, Official Report, column 100W, on banks, if he will take Technology House, 48-54 Goldsworth Road, Woking, GU21 steps to require information relating to pension 6LE arrangements of directors in banks supported through Princes House, 53 Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XB UK Financial Investments to be published more often Wynyard House, Wynyard Park, Billingham,TS22 5TB than in annual reports and accounts. [265728] 675W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 676W

Ian Pearson [holding answer 23 March 2009]: Departmental Correspondence Government policy in relation to the disclosure of commercial information by state-controlled companies Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer that are PLCs is that their approach to disclosure should what procedure his Department follows for dealing follow the requirements for companies listed on the with complaints received (a) by e-mail, (b) by post, Stock Exchange, including the Combined Code on (c) by telephone and (d) via his Department’s website. Corporate Governance and Directors’ Remuneration [274516] Report Regulations. Government are following this same approach in relation to the disclosure of commercial Angela Eagle: HM Treasury’s complaints procedure information by banks commercially managed by UK is set out on the HMT website under: Financial Investments (UKFI). http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/about_complaints.htm The Directors’ Remuneration Report Regulations 2002 require all quoted companies to prepare an annual Departmental Stationery directors’ remuneration report. The remuneration report must contain certain information in respect of each person who has served as a director of the company at Sarah Teather: To ask the Chancellor of the any time during the relevant financial year. The details Exchequer how much his Department has spent on are available at: branded stationery and gifts for (a) internal and (b) external promotional use in each of the last five years. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2002/20021986.htm [273773]

Banks: Ireland Angela Eagle: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 4 February 2008, Official Report, column Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if 828W, to the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban). he will insure monies invested by British nationals in (a) the Bank of Ireland and (b) Anglo-Irish Bank. Fiscal Policy [270351] Dr. Kumar: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Ian Pearson: Deposits with Bank of Ireland and whether the Government plans to bring forward Anglo Irish Bank are subject to the Irish Deposit Guarantee proposals for a second package of fiscal stimulus scheme. measures for the UK economy. [274089] James Brokenshire: To ask the Chancellor of the Ian Pearson: The Government have taken decisive Exchequer whether arrangements for the protection of action in response to the global economic crisis. The deposits made in UK banks apply to UK holders of Budget in April announced targeted fiscal support for deposits in banks in the Republic of Ireland; and if he those most affected by the downturn and to ensure a will make a statement. [270940] sustained and sustainable recovery. These measures build on the fiscal stimulus announced in the PBR, along Ian Pearson: The EC Deposit-guarantee Schemes with the support provided by allowing the UK’s relatively Directive (94/19/EC) sets the minimum terms on which powerful automatic fiscal stabilisers to operate in full. depositors are protected throughout the European Union and European economic area. Some member states have introduced higher limits. Furnished Holiday Lettings Scheme Arrangements for depositors in Irish banks are a matter for the Irish Government. Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what discussions he has had with (a) the Secretary of Deposits in Irish banks are covered up to a level of State for Culture, Media and Sport and (b) ¤100,000 by the Irish deposit guarantee scheme, under representatives of the tourism industry before reaching the terms of the Deposit Guarantee Schemes Directive. decisions on the changes to the Furnished Holiday In addition to the protection of the Irish Deposit Guarantee Lettings scheme announced in Budget 2009. [274682] Scheme, the Irish Government announced on 30 September 2008 that it would guarantee certain deposits with Irish Ian Pearson: The changes to the Furnished Holiday banks, including all retail deposits, until 29 September Lettings rules were made following advice that the 2010. different treatments of furnished holiday accommodation in the UK and in the rest of the EEA may not be James Brokenshire: To ask the Chancellor of the compliant with European Law. The decision to repeal Exchequer whether his Department has had the rules was taken in order to remove the unfair discussions with representatives of the government of advantage that landlords of furnished holiday the Republic of Ireland on arrangements to protect accommodation have over other landlords. deposits made by UK citizens with banks in the Republic of Ireland; and if he will make a statement. [271418] Industrial Health and Safety

Ian Pearson: Treasury Ministers and officials have Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer discussions with a wide variety of organisations and how much his Department spent on compliance with international partners. As was the case with previous requirements of health and safety at work legislation in Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to each of the last five years; and if he will make a provide details of all such discussions. statement. [274534] 677W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 678W

Angela Eagle: This information is not available in the State Retirement Pensions format requested, and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Tom Brake: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make it his policy to freeze the rate at which Interpal pension years can be bought back at the rate applicable before 6 April 2009 in respect of persons who have Dr. Starkey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer attempted to buy back one or more years and have not what requests he has made to the US administration had their application processed by the deadline. for details of the evidence on the basis of which the US [273716] authorities designated Interpal as a global terrorist organisation in 2003. [273733] Ian Pearson: HM Revenue and Customs have agreed that if a customer has requested a pension forecast Ian Pearson: The US Department of Treasury issued before 6 April 2009 but receives the forecast after that a press notice on 22 August 2003, explaining the reasons date, it will accept payment of class 3 contributions at why the US authorities designated Interpal. the pre 6 April 2009 rates, provided the payment is HM Treasury officials are in ongoing discussions made within one calendar month of the customer receiving with their US counterparts how best we can work the forecast. together to facilitate legitimate charitable work, while protecting against the abuse of charities by those involved Tax Evasion in terrorist finance. As part of this dialogue, the Treasury has asked the US authorities to consider if any further Dr. Evan Harris: To ask the Chancellor of the information can be made available about the basis for Exchequer what estimate he has made of revenue lost Interpal’s designation. to the Exchequer as a result of tax evasion in 2008-09. [273635] Landfill Tax Mr. Timms: There are no estimates of the revenue Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the lost specifically to tax evasion. HMRC published the Exchequer how much revenue accrued to the latest available estimates of tax losses in the Autumn Exchequer from landfill tax in each of the last three Performance Report 2008: years; and if he will make a statement. [274924] http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/autumn-report-2008.pdf The estimates given in this report include evasion with Angela Eagle: Total tax receipts for 2006-07 to 2008-09 other causes of losses. are published by HM Revenue and Customs at: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/tax_receipts/table1-3a.pdf Members: Correspondence WORK AND PENSIONS Departmental ICT John Penrose: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he plans to reply to the hon. Member John Thurso: To ask the Secretary of State for Work for Weston-Super-Mare’s letters of 2 December 2008 and Pensions what steps he has taken to reduce the and 27 February 2009 sent on behalf of his level of carbon dioxide emissions arising from the constituent, Mr Adrian Pritchard. [270093] operation of ICT systems in his Department under the Greening Government ICT Strategy. [273567] Ian Pearson: A reply has been sent to the hon. Member. Jonathan Shaw: The Department does not own the Natural Gas: Finance equipment used to provide its ICT systems. The equipment is provided as part of a managed service by the Mr. Crabb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Department’s IT suppliers. whether the cost of cushion gas used in gas storage infrastructure is considered to be capital expenditure The Department has made great inroads in reducing for taxation purposes; and if he will make a statement. its carbon footprint through active management of its IT services, since the end of 2005 when it re-aligned its [267119] contracts with BT and EDS. This work is continuing. Angela Eagle [holding answer 26 March 2009]: Cushion In the summer of 2008 the Department announced gas may be described as the volume of gas intended for its strategy to re-compete its existing contracts over a long-term use in a gas storage facility, necessary to five year period. A key element of this future contracting maintain pressure and to enable redelivery of the stored strategy is to contractually commit the IT providers to gas. As such, it is not acquired with a view to being reduce the carbon footprint of the services they deliver re-sold as an incident of the storage trade, but with a to the Department. view to being retained long-term as a fixed asset of the The Department, along with others represented on business. In those circumstances, the cost of acquiring it the Chief Information Officers Council (CIO), have is normally capital expenditure for taxation purposes. produced a “CIO Green ICT Roadmap” to deliver However, the answer can depend on the particular facts against the 18 target improvement areas outlined in the of the case so if, for example, there is systematic evidence Greening Government ICT Strategy. A full report of of the buying and selling of recoverable cushion gas the CIO Council Green ICT Roadmaps will be made (perhaps allied to an accounting treatment of the gas as available later in June featuring the action plans of all trading stock) this may point to the expenditure being Departments involved in the council against the 18 revenue expenditure for tax purposes. steps. 679W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 680W

Incapacity Benefit Estimated incapacity benefits case loads of claimants whose diagnosis includes heart! condition (nominal terms) All Ann Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the 10 most common medical August 2008 53,550 conditions in respect of which incapacity benefit Notes: 1. Case load figures are rounded to the nearest 10. claimants received the benefit were in each of the last 2. Causes of incapacity are based on the International Classification five years. [270499] of Diseases, 10th Revision, published by the World Health Organisation. 3. To qualify for incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance, claimants have to undertake a medical assessment of incapacity for Jonathan Shaw: The classification identifies some work called the personal capability assessment. Therefore, the medical conditions separately while others are grouped together condition recorded on the claim form does not itself confer entitlement in ‘other’ or ‘miscellaneous’ categories. Some of these to benefit. grouped categories are among those with the highest Source: caseload numbers. The level of detail of the supporting DWP Longitudinal Study documentation may determine whether a case is allocated to a more specific category, or has to be put in a Jobcentre Plus: Standards grouped category. Because of these grouped categories, we cannot be certain what the 10 most common medical Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work conditions among incapacity benefit/severe disablement and Pensions what guidance his Department has issued allowance claimants are, only the most common conditions to Jobcentre Plus on the priorities for processing are separately identified. different benefit claims within target timeframes. [271690]

Incapacity Benefit: Heart Diseases Mr. McNulty: No guidance has been issued to Jobcentre Plus as there are no set priorities between different Ann Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for benefits. In 2008-09 Jobcentre Plus exceeded all of its Work and Pensions how many incapacity benefit targets for clearing claims for incapacity benefit, income claimants had a recorded diagnosis which was or support and jobseeker’s allowance, despite a large increase included a heart condition in each of the last five years; in the numbers of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance, and how much was paid in such benefits to such implementing the new employment and support allowance, claimants in each of these years. [270501] and maintaining historically low levels of fraud and error. Jonathan Shaw: Having a heart condition does not of itself confer entitlement to incapacity benefits. Until Jobcentre Plus: Vacancies October 2008 the medical assessment of incapacity for work was the personal capability assessment. This assesses the effects of a person’s condition on their ability to Mr. Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for carry out a number of everyday activities relevant to Work and Pensions what his most recent estimate is of work. the ratio of jobseekers to vacancies in each (a) region, (b) local authority area, (c) Jobcentre Plus area and The information requested is in the following table. (d) parliamentary constituency. [262243] Estimated incapacity benefits expenditure on claimants whose diagnosis includes heart condition (nominal terms) Mr. McNulty: The information has been placed in £ million the Library, and provides separate data for unfilled and notified vacancies to give the fullest picture of the 2003-04 363 number of Jobcentre Plus vacancies. The labour market 2004-05 338 is dynamic and many new vacancies are filled so quickly 2005-06 317 they do not appear in the statistics for live unfilled 2006-07 296 vacancies, which are based on a snapshot of the vacancies 2007-08 279 available on a particular day. Notes: 1. Incapacity benefits includes incapacity benefit and severe disablement The coverage of these figures relates only to Jobcentre allowance payable to working-aged adults. Plus notified and unfilled vacancies. Many vacancies 2. Figures include incapacity related income support expenditure for come up through other recruitment channels and the incapacity benefit claimants. proportion accounted for by Jobcentre Plus is likely to 3. Expenditure figures are rounded to the nearest £ million. Estimates vary over time, according to the occupation of the are based on information from the Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study land published DWP benefit expenditure tables. vacancy and industry of the employer, and by local 4. DWP benefit expenditure tables can be accessed at: area. Estimates of the number of unfilled job vacancies http://www.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/expenditure.asp across the economy as a whole are available from the monthly ONS Vacancy Survey, based on a sample of Estimated incapacity benefits case loads of claimants whose diagnosis some 6,000 enterprises. However, the ONS survey is includes heart! condition (nominal terms) currently designed to provide national estimates only. All It should be noted that a simple comparison of August 2004 76,130 Jobcentre Plus advertised vacancies to local areas is not August 2005 70,130 the best measure of the work opportunities available to August 2006 64,730 jobseekers. People will tend to look for work in a wider August 2007 59,120 geographical area than a parliamentary constituency. 681W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 682W

New Deal Schemes In the 2009 Budget the Chancellor announced that the capital threshold for pension credit (and housing Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work benefit and council tax benefit for those who have and Pensions what contingency plans his Department attained the qualifying age for pension credit) will be has put in place to be invoked should delivery of increased from £6,000 to £10,000, bringing it into line flexible New Deal phase 1 not take place on the with the threshold for those living permanently in care expected timetable. [271717] homes. This will allow these customers to retain up to £10,000 of capital before it affects their benefit. Mr. McNulty: The Government remain committed to The change will take effect from November 2009 and bringing in the Flexible New Deal (FND) phase 1 from will apply to all pension credit customers, that is, to October 2009. None of the bids received from shortlisted people in receipt of guarantee credit only, savings credit suppliers in the FND competition have indicated they only or both guarantee and savings credit, as well as all could not start up by the expected date. pension age housing benefit and council tax benefit If a provider were to be unable to start delivery in customers. October 2009, suitable contingency arrangements would The Government recognise the importance of supporting be agreed for each Jobcentre Plus District involved. pensioners appropriately through the economic downturn. Customers would continue to receive support from Increasing the capital threshold from £6,000 to £10,000 Jobcentre Plus and have access to the additional support represents a generous increase in the thresholds and at six months, until the provider was ready to accept means that the proportion of pension credit recipients referrals. who will see their capital fully disregarded rises to 88 per cent. Half a million pensioners stand to gain Pathways to Work from this change, with an average weekly gain across all benefits of £4. Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Social Security Benefits and Pensions (1) what estimate he has made of the average cost (a) per start and (b) per job of the Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Pathways to Work programme after its national and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number roll-out; [266112] of claims for (a) jobseeker’s allowance, (b) income (2) what estimate he has made of the cost per head of support, (c) employment and support allowance, (d) the Pathways to Work programme after its national pension credit and (e) carer’s allowance delayed as a roll-out. [266113] result of the misplacing of paperwork by his Department and its agencies in each of the last three Mr. McNulty: Figures are not yet available for the years. [271687] average costs of Pathways to Work since national rollout Mr. McNulty: The information requested is not collected in April 2008. An independent report by the Institute centrally. for Fiscal Studies (Department for Work and Pensions Research Report 498) looked at the costs and benefits Social Security Benefits: Disqualification of Pathways in Jobcentre Plus pilot areas: they estimated the cost per Pathways participant (i.e. start) was Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work £402; and and Pensions what mechanism there is for liaison the Institute for Fiscal Studies study did not estimate costs per between staff in Jobcentre Plus offices and local job entry, but did make an estimate of the total costs and general practitioners on provisions in the Welfare benefits, from job entries. They concluded that for every £1 Reform Bill relating to drug users. [272084] spent on Pathways, the Government gains £1.51 back in terms of saved benefit bills and increased tax income. This is based Mr. McNulty [holding answer 30 April 2009]: Under on a conservative assumption that Pathways impact on employment the provisions, problem drug users will be required to and off-flows lasts for only 70 weeks. agree a rehabilitation plan with a specialist contracted Statistics for Provider-led districts will be published programme provider. Any need to liaise with medical in summer 2009. practitioners as a result of this will only be done with the consent of the individual concerned. Pension Credit Television: Licensing

Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether he plans to change the upper and Pensions how many pensioners in Hendon capital limit for pension credit for those who qualify for constituency received free television licences in (a) only the savings credit element; and if he will make a 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09. [272301] statement. [272002] Andy Burnham: I have been asked to reply. Ms Rosie Winterton [holding answer 30 April 2009]: TV Licensing, which administers free television licences There is no upper capital limit in pension credit. Those for people aged 75 or over as agents for the BBC, can customers in receipt of the guarantee element of pension provide breakdown only by postcode. However, according credit have linked entitlement to full eligible housing to the records of the Department for Work and Pensions benefit and council tax benefit. However customers the number of households with at least one person aged who are only in receipt of the savings credit element of 75 or over claiming the winter fuel payment in the pension credit are still subject to the upper capital limit Hendon constituency in 2007-08 was 5,830. Figures for of £16,000 in housing benefit and council tax benefit. 2008-09 are still being compiled. 683W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 684W

Vocational Training Regulatory Impact Assessment accompanying the Pensions Bill, costs presented in this answer refer to the estimated expenditure Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work on a “grandparent’s credit” on top of the reforms to coverage set out in the Pensions Acts 2007 and 2008. and Pensions what information his Department provides on (a) training courses and (b) funding for 3. Figures quoted relate only to benefit expenditure and do not take account of administration costs. such courses to (i) Jobcentre Plus and (ii) careers Source: advisers. [266121] DWP estimates based on evidence from the Family Resources Mr. McNulty: The administration of Jobcentre Plus Survey, demographic projections, and administrative data. is a matter for the acting chief executive of Jobcentre Winter Fuel Payments Plus, Mel Groves. I have asked him to provide the right hon. Member with the information requested. Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Letter from Mel Groves: and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question of people in each (a) constituency and (b) weather asking what information his Department provides on training courses and funding both to Jobcentre Plus advisers and careers station area who would be eligible for cold weather advisers. This is something that falls within the responsibilities payments should temperatures fall below the trigger delegated to me as Acting Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. point. [249424] Jobcentre Plus Personal Advisers have access to a range of information on the training provision available locally and the Kitty Ussher: Estimates of the number of benefit eligibility conditions that apply. There are local partnerships units eligible for cold weather payments are not available agreements in place between each Jobcentre Plus District and the by parliamentary constituency or local authority, but careers advisory services for young people to facilitate discussions only by weather station. The available information is on how best to support young people into appropriate employment, given in the following table: education and training. Estimated number of benefit units eligible for cold weather payments by weather Jobcentre Plus is working with the Learning and Skills Councils station in Great Britain in 2008-09 in England and trialling an integrated employment and skills Estimated number of system which improves the availability of information on learning Weather station Admin area eligible benefit units opportunities to its advisers and those in other organisations. Early policy development discussions are being held with the Aberporth Ceredigion 4,700 devolved administrations with a view to trialling similar arrangements. Albemarle Northumberland 146,100 Welfare Tax Credits: Grandparents Andrewsfield Essex 68,200 Aultbea Highland 500 Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Aviemore Highland 800 and Pensions if he will estimate the cost of introducing Bedford Bedfordshire 84,100 a national insurance credit for grandparents of Bingley West Yorkshire 160,900 working age who provide 20 hours or more childcare Bishopton Renfrewshire 205,300 Boscombe Down Wiltshire 13,000 per week. [251938] Boulmer Northumberland 14,600 Ms Rosie Winterton [holding answer 27 January 2009]: Braemar Aberdeenshire 1,600 Reforms to make the state pension fairer and more Brize Norton Oxfordshire 25,900 widely available will be implemented in April 2010 Cardinham Cornwall 13,400 (Bodmin) including a reduction to 30 qualifying years required for Carlisle Cumbria 14,900 entitlement to the full basic state pension and reforms Cassley Highland 400 to the system for crediting those with caring responsibilities Charlwood West Sussex 43,000 to reflect the different ways in which people contribute Charterhall Scottish Borders 2,900 to society. As a result of these changes around 75 per Chivenor Devon 9,800 cent. of women reaching state pension age from April Coleshill Warwickshire 310,300 2010 will be entitled to a full basic state pension compared Crosby Merseyside 271,700 to 50 per cent. without reform. By 2025 over 90 per Culdrose Cornwall 22,500 cent. of both men and women reaching state pension Dundrennan Dumfries and Galloway 5,300 age will be entitled to a full basic state pension. Dunkeswell Devon 40,800 Building on these reforms, the Government announced Aerodrome in the Budget 2009 that working age grandparents and Dyce (Aberdeen Aberdeen 29,200 other adult family members, who care for their Airport) grandchildren or other members of their family aged Edinburgh Edinburgh 81,500 Gogarbank 12 or younger for 20 hours or more a week, will be able Eskdalemuir Dumfries and Galloway 6,400 to gain national insurance credits toward the basic state Filton South Gloucestershire 58,800 pension from April 2011 at an estimated total cost of Heathrow Greater London 583,400 £35 million to 2050 (Net Present Value, 2009-10 price Hereford-Credenhill Herefordshire 53,200 terms). Herstmonceux West East Sussex 26,500 Notes: End 1. The estimate is consistent with Treasury Economic assumptions High Wycombe Buckinghamshire 21,200 from the Budget Report 2009, are in 2009-10 prices, have been Hurn (Bournemouth Dorset 38,000 rounded to the nearest £5 million. Airport) 2. Estimates of the cost of particular elements of coverage Isle of Portland Dorset 5,100 reform, such as the “grandparent’s credit”, depend on the order in Kinloss Moray 14,900 which they are modelled. Following the approach used in the Kirkwall Orkney 1,200 685W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 686W

Estimated number of benefit units eligible for cold weather payments by weather Bill Rammell: The information on the Foreign and station in Great Britain in 2008-09 Commonwealth Office’s (FCO) funding for operations Estimated number of Weather station Admin area eligible benefit units in Afghanistan, prior to 2006, is not held centrally and could only be obtained at disproportionate cost. However, Lake Vyrnwy Powys 6,000 we can provide the following data of FCO spend in Leconfield East Riding of 52,800 Afghanistan for financial years 2006 to 2009 to show Yorkshire our major areas of spending up to the end of the Lerwick Shetland 1,200 current Comprehensive Spending Review period: Leuchars Fife 42,600

Linton on Ouse North Yorkshire 138,900 £ million Liscombe Somerset 7,700 2009- Loch Glascamoch Highland 800 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 101 Loftus Redcar and Cleveland 57,900 Administrative and capital 6.7 14.5 229.6 24.8 Lusa Highland 700 costs, geographical Lyneham Wiltshire 36,800 directorate Machrihanish Argyll and Bute 3,200 Contracts: security services 15 19.6 19.6 20.5 Manston Kent 109,100 (approximate value) 3 3 Marham Norfolk 25,700 Estates Directorate 4.1 4.1 — — Norwich Airport Norfolk 50,400 Strategic Programme 16.3 16.3 33.9 21.9 Funds: counter-narcotics Nottingham Nottinghamshire 252,600 Strategic Programme 4— 4— 21.3 1.2 Pembrey Sands Carmarthenshire 55,900 Funds: migration Plymouth Plymouth 25,200 Strategic programme 0.8 0 5.4 4.5 Redesdale Northumberland 6,200 Funds: counter-terrorism Rhyl Denbighshire 16,700 Afghanistan Bilateral 0.4 0.4 0.3 0.3 St. Athan Vale of Glamorgan 58,300 Programme Budget 1 St. Catherine’s Point Isle of Wight 4,100 Estimated allocation. 2 Estimate. Salsburgh North Lanarkshire 15,100 3 Not yet finalised. Scilly St. Mary Isles of Scilly 100 4 Not applicable. Sennybridge Powys 67,500 British Overseas Territories Shap Cumbria 4,900 Shawbury Shropshire 64,700 Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for South Farnborough Hampshire 60,400 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many Stornoway Airport Western Isles 2,800 officials in his Department are engaged in work relating Thorney Island West Sussex 113,000 to overseas territories. [273194] Tiree Argyll and Bute 100 Trawsgoed Ceredigion 3,400 Gillian Merron [holding answer 7 May 2009]: There Tulloch Bridge Highland 2,200 are 89 Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) officials Valley Anglesey 13,300 employed directly on UK Overseas Territories’ issues. Waddington Lincolnshire 90,000 In addition, other staff with wider FCO responsibilities Walney Island Cumbria 23,100 are called upon as necessary when specific issues arise in Wattisham Suffolk 54,600 the Territories requiring specialist knowledge and expertise. West Freugh Dumfries and Galloway 5,000 Wick Airport Highland 2,600 Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Wittering Peterborough 28,200 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many of his Woodford Greater Manchester 208,600 Department’s staff work on issues related to the UK Yeovilton Somerset 27,400 Overseas Territories; and if he will make a statement. Notes: [273267] 1. The admin area gives the location of each weather station, not the area which is linked to the weather station. For example, Heathrow weather station Gillian Merron: There are 89 Foreign and covers almost all of Greater London, but not all of it, and some areas outside Greater London are linked to Heathrow weather station. Commonwealth Office (FCO) staff employed directly 2. The estimated numbers of eligible benefit units are the most recently on UK Overseas Territories’ issues. In addition, other available, but they are only estimates. staff with wider FCO responsibilities are called upon as 3. The estimated numbers of eligible benefit units have been rounded to the nearest 100. necessary when specific issues arise in the territories Sources: requiring specialist knowledge and expertise. Admin areas for weather stations: the Met Office, October 2008. Estimated numbers of eligible benefit units: analysis of a scan of benefit Departmental Rail Travel recipients eligible for cold weather payments taken at the end of October 2008. Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what guidelines FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE his Department has in place on train travel by its Afghanistan officials (a) in the UK, (b) between the UK and other countries and (c) overseas. [273679] Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State Gillian Merron: The Foreign and Commonwealth for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what funding Office (FCO) guidelines for staff travelling by train are his Department has allocated for operations in as follows: Afghanistan in each year since 2001; and what estimate Within the UK, all staff are entitled to First class rail travel he has made of his Department’s expenditure on such where the one way rail journey time by the quickest and operations in the next three years. [269921] shortest route is two hours or longer according to the published 687W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 688W

arrival and departure times in the timetable. Standard class rail members of the public regarding this meeting. However, travel is used by all staff where the one way rail journey time is we have consistently called for Hamas to renounce less than two hours unless there are exceptional circumstances violence, recognise Israel, and adhere to previous Palestinian (eg illness, disability) subject to approval by a manager. agreements. Between the UK and other countries, and overseas, officers in band b (executive officer) and above may travel first class. All other staff travel second or standard class. Hostages: British Nationality

EU Institutions: Manpower Mr. Ancram: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many British Mr. Davey: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign citizens his Department has been informed are being and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what percentage of the held hostage abroad; in which countries they are being staff of (a) European Union agencies, (b) the Council held; and for how long they have been held in each of the European Union, (c) the European Parliament case. [273320] and (d) the European Commission were UK nationals in each year since 1997; [270837] Gillian Merron: As of 5 May 2009 the Foreign and (2) what percentage of new recruits to the staff of Commonwealth Office is providing consular assistance (a) European Union agencies, (b) the Council of the to the families of eight British citizens being held hostage European Union, (c) the European Parliament and abroad. Five British citizens have been held in Iraq (d) the European Commission were UK nationals in since May 2007, one in Somalia since April 2008, one in each year since 1997; [270838] Nigeria since September 2008 and one in Mali since January 2009. (3) what percentage of the staff of (a) the European Parliament, (b) the Council of the European Union, (c) European Union agencies and (d) the European India: Religious Freedom Commission (i) in total and (ii) above grade 14 are UK nationals. [270839] Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will David Miliband: The information required to respond encourage the Indian government to implement the to the first three parts of these parliamentary questions recommendations of the UN Special Rapporteur on is owned by each EU institution, and it is more appropriate freedom of religion or belief arising from the report of for the institution in question to be approached with her 2008 mission to India. [273273] any questions on the make-up of their own staff. The European Commission publish their staffing figures Bill Rammell: The UK continues to work through the annually on the Europa Website: European Union on a number of human rights issues as http://ec.europa.eu/civil_service/about/figures/index_en.htm part of a continuing EU-India Human Rights Dialogue. The recommendations of the UN Special Rapporteur The Government are clear that it is in the EU and on freedom of religion or belief were identified by EU UK’s interests to have successful UK candidates working colleagues as a subject for discussion at the EU-India at the heart of the EU’s institutions. Human Rights Dialogue meeting in February 2009. It European Union was agreed by both sides that there would be continued exchanges about discrimination, including on religious grounds. The recommendations will be a useful point of Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign reference for future engagement with India on human and Commonwealth Affairs on what dates he had (a) rights issues. discussions and (b) meetings with the European Union Special Representative for Central Asia on the Iran: Baha’i Faith situation in the region in the last 12 months. [274805]

Caroline Flint: There has been no ministerial contact Harry Cohen: To ask the Secretary of State for with the EU Special Representative (EUSR) for Central Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he Asia in the last 12 months. However, senior officials has received of attacks on Baha’is in the Iranian town have continued to meet the EUSR on a regular basis. of Semnan on 25 February 2009; and if he will make a statement. [272573] Hamas Bill Rammell: We have received a series of worrying Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign reports regarding anti-Baha’i activities in Semnan, including and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions his looting, arbitrary arrests and the desecration of a Baha’i Department had with the House of Commons cemetery. In December 2008 agents of the Ministry authorities on the meeting held on the Parliamentary Intelligence raided 20 Baha’i homes in the town, and on estate on 22 April 2009 involving a video link with a 25 February 2009 at least two of these homes were senior leader of Hamas; and if he will make a subsequently attacked with petrol bombs. statement. [274027] We have expressed our concerns to the Iranian Government and called on Iran to put an end to the Bill Rammell: This Department made no representations persecution of religious minorities and to respect and to the House of Commons authorities regarding a protect the right to freedom of religion and belief, as video link meeting with a senior leader of Hamas on described in Article 18 of the International Covenant 22 April 2009. We are not aware of any representations on Civil and Political Rights, to which Iran is a State received from right hon. Members, hon. Members or Party. 689W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 690W

Iran: Nuclear Power 25 April 2009. Officials based at our high commission in Islamabad also continue to hold frequent discussions Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign about the political situation in Pakistan with a wide and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer to range of Pakistani Ministers, politicians and officials. the hon. Member for East Londonderry of 23 March The situation in Swat has been a regular theme of 2009, Official Report, column 29W, on Iran, what his discussions. We have concerns about the recent peace policy is on revisions to June 2008 E3+3 offer to Iran; agreement—an effective and sustainable peace deal is and what recent discussions he has had with his US one which can end violence, not create space for further counterpart on this matter. [272914] violence.

David Miliband: The E3+3 offer of June 2008 remains Turks and Caicos Islands on the table and would provide Iran with everything it needs for a modern civil nuclear power programme as Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for well as a range of economic and political benefits. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many (a) The fundamental approach of the E3+3 has not officials and (b) experts have been sent to the Turks changed. The E3+3 made clear on 8 April 2009 that it is and Caicos Islands as part of his Department’s fully committed to the dual-track strategy of pressure Emergency State Building Team; what the duration of and engagement. Our objective remains the suspension their stay is; and what remit the team has. [273270] of the Iranian nuclear programme as a prerequisite before full negotiations can take place. Gillian Merron: Two officials have been sent in succession, The decision of the US Administration to play a full on a short-term basis, to the Turks and Caicos Islands part in future E3+3 negotiations with Iran presents Iran to work at the Governor’s Office. with a window of opportunity. If Iran suspends its Two technical experts have been sent to the Turks and nuclear enrichment programme and enters into talks, Caicos Islands for a period of 12-months. One is to we can discuss the details of the offer in more detail. oversee the disbursement of funds from the UK’s £5 million Iran has not yet taken any such steps. Iran should not contribution to the Turks and Caicos Islands’ Disaster expect the offer to be open-ended. Recovery Plan. The other is to work with the Ministry I have met Secretary of State Clinton on a number of of Finance in support of the Turks and Caicos Islands’ occasions to discuss the US review of its Iran policy. Fiscal Stabilisation Plan. Our most recent meeting was on 2 April 2009. Our In light of the Commission of Inquiry’s Final Report, officials are also in regular contact. which is due by 31 May 2009, the Government will need to give consideration to the provision of further experts. Iran: Sanctions

Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on how many occasions DUCHY OF LANCASTER since 27 December 2006 the UN Sanctions Committee established pursuant to UN Security Council Charities: Insolvency Resolution 1737 has exercised its mandate to designate (a) (b) (c) additional individuals, equipment, goods Jenny Willott: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of (d) and technology in relation to Iran’s nuclear or Lancaster how many registered charities declared ballistic missile programme; and if he will make a themselves insolvent in each of (a) the last five years statement. [270975] and (b) the last 12 months; and if he will make a statement. [272401] David Miliband: The UN Sanctions Committee established pursuant to UN Security Council Resolution Kevin Brennan: The information requested falls within 1737 has not added new designations under the original the responsibility of the Charity Commission. I have Resolution. However, the measures imposed by UN asked the Commission to reply. Security Council Resolution 1737 have since been strengthened by UN Security Council Resolutions 1747 Letter from Andrew Hind, dated May 2009: (2007) and 1803 (2008), which expanded the lists of As the Chief Executive of the Charity Commission, I have individuals, equipment, goods and technology subject been asked to respond to your written parliamentary question on to sanctions. how many registered charities declared themselves insolvent in each of (a) the last five years and (b) the last 12 months. With regard to how many registered charities declared themselves Pakistan: Politics and Government insolvent in each of the last five years, the Charity Commission do not currently record this information centrally. However, the Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State following tables which set out the number of charities who were for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent removed from the register, in each year, since 2005 and each representations he has made to his Pakistani month since April 2008 and the reasons recorded for their removal. Our data on reasons for removal from the Register only goes counterpart on the political situation in Swat; and if he back, in a comparable form, to 2005-06. will make a statement. [271525] The following tables refer to those charities which are required to register with the Commission by law. Smaller charities are not Bill Rammell: My right hon. Friend the Foreign required to register with us; the threshold for registration was an Secretary last discussed the situation in North West annual income of £1,000 until April 2007 when this threshold was Frontier Province with Foreign Minister Qureshi on increased to £5,000. 691W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 692W

Charities removed from the Register due to insolvency are likely to have fallen under the category ‘Ceased to exist or operate Reason for removal 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 Total for other reasons’. However, it is unlikely that insolvency accounts Ceased to exist or operate for 3,344 2,691 3,270 9,305 for more than a small minority. other reasons Voluntary removal of charities 28 8 245 281 Reason for removal 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 Total below the minimum registration threshold Ceased to exist or operate due to 1,592 1,725 1,436 4,753 Duplicate registrations and 174 152 122 448 merger, incorporation or other corrections transfer of funds Total 5,138 4,576 5,073 14,787

2008 2009 Reason for removal Apr May June July Aug Sept Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Total

Ceased to exist or operate 148 104 148 54 44 180 112 164 139 153 235 103 1,584 due to merger, incorporation or transfer of funds Ceased to exist or operate 233 457 314 308 265 300 390 1,367 540 282 398 328 5,182 for other reasons Voluntary removal of 18 24 22 23 8 22 35 18 27 32 87 300 616 charities below the minimum registration threshold Duplicate registrations and 51733314242641 other corrections Total 404 586 491 388 320 505 538 1,553 708 471 722 737 7,423

The figures for 2008-09 show an increase over previous years as Box 1. Alcohol-related causes of death - International Classification of Diseases, a result of our work to improve the accuracy of the Register of Tenth Revision (ICD-10) Charities. A key aspect of our strategy is the prompt removal of Cause of death 1CIM0 code(s) charities that are inactive and with which we can no longer establish contact. The marked peak in November 2008 is a direct Mental and behavioural disorders F10 consequence of this strategy. due to use of alcohol Degeneration of nervous system due G3U I hope this is helpful. to alcohol Alcoholic polyneuropathy G62.1 Alcoholic cardiomyopathy 142.6 Death: Alcoholic Drinks and Drugs Alcoholic gastritis K29.2 Alcoholic liver disease K70 Chronic hepatitis, not elsewhere K73 Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the classified Duchy of Lancaster how many (a) alcohol and (b) Fibrose and cirrhosis of liver (excl. K74 (excl.K74.3-K74.5) illegal drug-related deaths there were in (i) Crosby Biliary cirrhosis) constituency and (ii) Merseyside in the last 12 months. Alcohol induced chronic pancreatitis K86.0 [273608] Accidental poisoning by and X45 exposure to alcohol Intentional self-poisoning by and X65 Kevin Brennan: The information requested falls within exposure to alcohol the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Poisoning by and exposure to Y15 asked the authority to reply. alcohol, undetermined intent Letter from Karen Dunnell, May 2009: Table 2. Number of deaths from drug misuse1, Crosby constituency and As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your Merseyside metropolitan county2, 20073 recent question asking how many (a) alcohol and (b) illegal Deaths drug-related deaths there were in (i) Crosby constituency and (ii) Merseyside in the last 12 months. (273608) Crosby constituency 2 Merseyside metropolitan county 51 The tables attached provide the number of deaths where (a) 1 the underlying cause was alcohol related (Table 1) and (b) the Cause of death was defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10). Deaths were included where the underlying cause was underlying cause was drug poisoning, where any drug controlled due to drug poisoning, as shown in box 2, and where a drug controlled under under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 was mentioned on the death the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 was mentioned on the death certificate. certificate (Table 2), in Crosby constituency and Merseyside 2 Based on boundaries as of 2009. metropolitan county in 2007 (the latest year available). 3 All figures are for deaths registered in 2007.

Table 1: Number of alcohol-related deaths,1 Crosby constituency and Merseyside Box 2. Drug-related poisoning deaths International Classification of Diseases, metropolitan county2, 20073 Tenth Revision (ICD-10) Deaths Cause of death ICD-10

Crosby constituency 10 Mental and behavioural disorders due to drug F11-F16,F18-F19 Merseyside metropolitan county 304 use (excluding alcohol and tobacco) 1 Cause of death was defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Accidental poisoning by drugs, medicaments X40-X44 Tenth Revision (ICD-10). Deaths were included where the underlying cause was and biological substances alcohol-related, as shown in box 1. Intentional self-poisoning by drugs, X60-X64 2 Based on boundaries as of 2009. medicaments and biological substances 3 All figures are for deaths registered in 2007. 693W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 694W

Box 2. Drug-related poisoning deaths International Classification of Diseases, As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your Tenth Revision (ICD-10) recent question asking how many deaths from malnutrition and Cause of death ICD-10 the effects of hunger there have been in settings other than hospitals and private and public care homes in each Government Assault by drugs, medicaments and biological X85 Office region since 1997. (273544) substances Poisoning by drugs, medicaments and biological Y10-Y14 Malnutrition may be recorded as the underlying cause of substances, undetermined intent death, but this is a rare occurrence. The ‘effects of hunger’, as the effects of malnutrition may be reported on a death certificate, is Death: Nutrition never recorded as the underlying cause of death, because it is defined by the International Classification of Diseases as a ‘secondary cause’ only. Consequently, deaths with any mention of either of Mr. Burstow: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of these causes on the death certificate are reported together. Lancaster how many deaths from malnutrition and the The attached tables provide the numbers of deaths in settings effects of hunger there have been in settings other than other than hospitals and private and public care homes where (a) hospitals and private and public care homes in each malnutrition was the underlying cause of death (Table 1), and (b) Government Office region since 1997. [273544] malnutrition or ‘effects of hunger’ was mentioned anywhere on the death certificate (Table 2), for persons resident in each government Kevin Brennan: The information requested falls within office region in England, for the years 1998 to 2007 (the latest the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have year available). Table 2 includes deaths where malnutrition was a complication of the underlying cause (for example cancer of the asked the authority to reply. stomach) in addition to deaths where it was reported as the Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated May 2009: underlying cause.

Table 1. Deaths in settings other than hospitals and care homes where malnutrition was the underlying cause of death1, persons resident in Government office regions in England2, 1997 to 20073 Deaths (persons) Government office region 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

NorthEast 00000000102 Northwest 00011023311 Yorkshire and the Humber 31201001002 East Midlands 02011110002 West Midlands 24213121212 East of England 10100100112 London 21142012114 South East 13110100220 South West 47312112101 1 Cause of death was defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Ninth Revision (ICD-9) codes 260-269 (malnutrition) for the years 1997 to 2000, and the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10) codes E40-E46 (malnutrition) for 2001 onwards. The introduction of ICD-10 in 2001 means that the numbers of deaths from each cause before 2001 are not completely comparable with later years. 2 Based on boundaries as of 2009. 3 Figures are for deaths registered in each calendar year.

Table 2. Deaths in settings other than hospitals and care homes where malnutrition or effects of hunger were mentioned on the death certificate1, persons resident in Government office regions in England2, 1997 to 20073 Deaths (persons) Government office region 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

NorthEast 14222214422 Northwest 62424254975 Yorkshire and the Humber 35632232224 East Midlands 43442223155 West Midlands 14 12 11 6 11346355 East of England 64835533278 London 12 7 1073162365 South East 46682354676 South West 23 22955259742 1 Cause of death was defined using the international Classification of Diseases, Ninth Revision (ICD-9) codes 260-269 (malnutrition) and E904.1 (effects of hunger) for the years 1997 to 2000, and the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10) codes E40-E46 (malnutrition) and T73.0 (effects of hunger) for 2001 onwards. Deaths were included where one of these causes was mentioned anywhere on the death certificate. The introduction of ICD-10 in 2001 means mat the numbers of deaths from each cause before 2001 are not completely comparable with later years. 2 Based on boundaries as of 2009. 3 Figures are for deaths registered in each calendar year.

Departmental Buildings Departmental Stationery Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how much his Department spent on building maintenance in each of the last five years; and if he will Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of make a statement. [274552] Lancaster how much his Department spent on the purchase of (a) recycled office supplies in the last 12 Kevin Brennan: I refer the hon. Member to the answer months and (b) printer ink cartridges in each of the given to the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Scott) last five years. [274206] on 28 January 2009, Official Report, column 676W. 695W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 696W

Kevin Brennan: The information requested for the Sexuality: Statistics Cabinet Office is not readily available and may not be obtained without incurring disproportionate costs. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Chancellor of the Non-profit Making Associations: Bexley Duchy of Lancaster whether the Office for National Statistics’ Sexual Identity Project has concluded; and if he will place in the Library a copy of the project’s most Mr. Evennett: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of recent report. [274079] Lancaster what recent assessment he has made of the effect of the recession on not-for-profit organisations Kevin Brennan: The information requested falls within in the London Borough of Bexley. [273206] the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Kevin Brennan: The Office of the Third Sector (OTS) is working with key partners to understand the impact Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated May 2009: of the economic downturn on third sector organisations. As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your At present the available evidence is incomplete and it is recent Parliamentary Question on whether the Office for National too soon to fully evaluate the impact of the downturn Statistics’ Sexual Identity Project has concluded; and if the most on the sector at a constituency level. recent report will be placed in the Library (274079). The ONS Sexual Identity Project formally concluded on 8 The Government continue to take the difficulties May 2009 with the publication of guidance on measuring sexual many third sector organisations face during this recession identity in social surveys and a report on a pilot survey which was very seriously, which is why the £42.5 million package used to inform the addition of the sexual identity question on all announced in “Real help for Communities: Volunteers, ONS social surveys in January 2009. Charities and Social Enterprises” provides targeted help These reports are available on the National Statistics website at for the sector to face these challenges. This package of the following addresses: support was designed together with third sector leaders Measuring Sexual Identity: A guide for researchers: and took into account submissions from over 80 charities. http://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutstatistics/measuringequality/ This action plan builds on the wide range of measures sexualidentityproject/guidance/measuring-sexual-identity--a- the Government have put in place to support people guide-for-researchers.pdf through the economic downturn, and on the Government’s Developing survey questions on sexual identity: Report on the long-term commitment to voluntary organisations and General Lifestyle (GLF) split-sample pilot: social enterprises. http://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutstatistics/measuringequality/ The OTS will continue to monitor this situation sexualidentityproject/questtestand-implem/index.html closely and work with its partners to share evidence on Copies of these reports will be placed in the House of Commons this issue and will host a sector-wide summit on the Library. economic downturn in June. In addition, the Third In addition, ONS is planning to publish experimental statistics Sector Research Centre will also be factoring the impact on sexual identity in Autumn 2009 with the aim of first national of the downturn into its analysis of the sector. statistics estimates being available in 2010. Pensioners: Merseyside Skin Cancer

Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Sandra Gidley: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy Duchy of Lancaster what estimate he has made of the of Lancaster how many (a) men and (b) women in number of pensioners in households with a net income each age group have been diagnosed with skin cancer in of less than £130 a week in (a) Crosby constituency each of the last 10 years. [269789] and (b) Merseyside in each of the last five years. [273614] Kevin Brennan: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Kevin Brennan: The information requested falls within asked the authority to reply. the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated April 2009: asked the authority to reply. As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated May 2009: recent Parliamentary Question asking how many (a) men and (b) As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your women in each age group have been diagnosed with skin cancer in recent question asking what estimate he has made of the number each of the last 10 years. [269789] of pensioners with a net household income of less than £130 a The latest figures for newly diagnosed cases (incidence) of week in (a) Crosby constituency and (b) Merseyside in each of the malignant melanoma of skin registered in England are for the last five years. (273614) year 2006. Figures from 1997 to 2006 for (a) men and (b) women The information requested is not available. by age group are given in Tables 1 and 2.

Table 1, Registrations of newly diagnosed cases of malignant melanoma of skin1, by age group, Males, England, 1997 to 2006 Age 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006

Under 1 0000010000 1-40100020100 5-90001020001 10-144402253223 15-1914151713978162521 20-24 35 22 22 32 41 41 40 44 49 50 25-29 70 70 58 65 72 65 60 78 70 87 697W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 698W

Table 1, Registrations of newly diagnosed cases of malignant melanoma of skin1, by age group, Males, England, 1997 to 2006 Age 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006

30-34 89 107 97 110 134 116 121 120 119 109 35-39 110 119 123 143 139 163 152 200 198 214 40-44 138 160 148 165 185 180 177 258 255 262 45-49 177 173 181 170 219 226 219 245 240 267 50-54 219 261 232 252 270 240 248 258 287 290 55-59 203 206 209 248 270 342 360 371 451 426 60-64 235 215 249 298 298 321 342 368 383 472 65-69 233 243 251 295 302 311 324 376 435 446 70-74 234 230 221 269 277 324 358 354 416 457 75-79 194 190 225 272 253 266 281 311 340 371 80-84 115 127 144 188 189 195 234 253 269 313 85+ 84 93 110 117 141 139 142 177 167 220 Total 2,154 2,236 2,287 2,640 2,801 2,946 3,069 3,432 3,706 4,009 1 Malignant melanoma of skin is coded to C43 in the International Classification of Diseases Tenth Revision (ICD-10) Source: Office for National Statistics

Table 2, Registrations of newly diagnosed cases of malignant melanoma of skin1, by age group, Females, England, 1997 to 2006 Age 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006

Under 1 0 000000000 1-4 1 130010020 5-9 0 210023122 10-14 3 151225434 15-19 18 21 23 22 26 17 19 34 38 33 20-24 57 53 56 73 85 90 67 84 104 94 25-29 123 133 112 137 150 152 121 148 178 182 30-34 140 171 184 202 195 240 221 251 241 233 35-39 180 168 211 219 260 214 295 284 297 343 40-44 200 211 202 261 272 235 267 327 342 362 45-49 259 271 228 246 319 278 301 326 334 381 50-54 276 296 294 332 355 366 363 360 351 409 55-59 216 227 267 302 329 378 390 426 424 459 60-64 269 232 238 266 260 271 303 361 374 433 65-69 257 228 287 268 299 323 307 328 386 347 70-74 251 244 266 262 296 319 319 326 356 372 75-79 226 257 277 274 278 322 306 330 363 349 80-84 197 184 181 243 267 246 269 283 309 318 85+ 191 202 215 248 212 259 293 291 292 328 Total 2,864 2,902 3,050 3,356 3,605 3,715 3,849 4,164 4,396 4,649 1 Malignant melanoma of skin is coded to C43 in the International Classification of Diseases Tenth Revision (ICD-10) Source: Office for National Statistics.

Trading Funds: Accountancy Essex and (iii) Castle Point constituency in each of the last five years; and if he will make a statement. [273372] Mr. Todd: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster pursuant to box 3.A of the final report of the Operational Efficiency programme, what additional resources are to be made available to the Office of Kevin Brennan: The information requested falls within Public Sector Information to enable enhanced the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have oversight of trading funds. [274198] asked the authority to reply. Mr. Wills: I have been asked to reply. Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated May 2009: The Office of Public Sector Information (OPSI) will As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your deliver enhanced oversight and governance from within Parliamentary Question asking how many (a) men and (b) women existing resources. Balancing impact, priorities and became unemployed at an age of over 50 years in (i) England, (ii) resourcing continues to be a priority and OPSI will Essex and (iii) Castle Point constituency in each of the last five continue to focus on ensuring fair and transparent years. (273372) access to public sector information through the range of Estimates of the number of people aged 50 and over who are initiatives and responsibilities within OPSI’s remit. unemployed are routinely published, for example in the monthly Labour Market Statistics First Release, available on: Unemployment http://www.statistics.gov.uk

Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of These include estimates of the duration of unemployment. However, Lancaster how many (a) men and (b) women over the there are no estimates available for the numbers becoming unemployed age of 50 years became unemployed in (i) England, (ii) at an age of over 50 years in each year. 699W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 700W

Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Children: Databases Duchy of Lancaster how many (a) men and (b) women over 50 years old became unemployed in (i) Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Crosby constituency, (ii) Merseyside and (iii) England Children, Schools and Families (1) what matters in each of the last five years. [273615] remain to be resolved regarding unshielded duplicate records of shielded children on ContactPoint; who is Kevin Brennan: The information requested falls within responsible for resolving them; and what steps he is the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have taking to achieve a resolution; [271498] asked the authority to reply. (2) how many and which local authorities did not Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated May 2009: meet the 13 March shielding policies deadline for As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your ContactPoint. [271499] Parliamentary Question asking how many (a) men and (b) women of an age over 50 years became unemployed in (i) Crosby constituency, Beverley Hughes [holding answer 27 April 2009]: The (ii) Merseyside and (iii) England in each of the last five years. information needed for ContactPoint comes from existing (273615) systems, national and local. This data will be refreshed Estimates of the number of people aged 50 and over who are and updated automatically from these systems on a unemployed are routinely published, for example in the monthly regular basis. We have received core information from Labour Market Statistics First Release, available on: four national data sources and this is the data set that http://www.statistics.gov.uk all LAs have been working on to shield records. Work These include estimates of the duration of unemployment. However, has also begun on the first updated data load from these there are no estimates available for the numbers becoming unemployed sources, to ensure records held on ContactPoint are as at an age of over 50 years in each year. accurate and up-to-date as possible. We received a few reports of cases where updates Voluntary Organisations: Finance from these sources may not be matching as expected. We took immediate action to investigate and initial Keith Vaz: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of indications are that matching is working correctly. Lancaster what proportion of funding from his However, as a transitional precautionary measure, we Department for third sector organisations is allocated have paused the ongoing data update feed while we to organisations which operate only in the United investigate the instances reported to us. Kingdom. [271487] This will minimise any risk to records that have been shielded. Kevin Brennan: The Office of the Third Sector does Data feed from national systems will re-commence not fund programmes outside the United Kingdom. once all local authority ContactPoint management teams Records of which organisations it funds which also have been given access to ContactPoint. operate in other countries are not held centrally. DCSF continue to investigate the reports of duplicate records and will make changes as necessary. We are taking a prudent and incremental approach to CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ContactPoint delivery.Local authorities provided a progress update on their shielding activity 13 March, which included whether they had robust arrangements in place Children In Care: Young Offenders to deal with shielding requests on an ongoing basis. Two thirds of local authorities confirmed that they had Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for completed the required shielding actions. These responses Children, Schools and Families how many children in were sent in confidence and as part of the normal, care have a criminal record. [272868] ongoing discussion between the Departments and local authorities and as part of the implementation process. Beverley Hughes: The information asked for is not collected centrally by the Department. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what estimate he has Children: Care Homes made of the number of registered IP addresses from which ContactPoint will be accessible. [274724]

Ann Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Beverley Hughes: There has been no estimate of the Children, Schools and Families what recent likely maximum number of registered IP addresses from representations he has received on making information which ContactPoint will be accessible. We expect that on the location of children’s homes available to police the majority of users will access ContactPoint via secure forces; and if he will make a statement. [274180] Government networks. The remainder will only be able to access ContactPoint from known, accredited computer Beverley Hughes: The Secretary of State has not systems. received any representations on making information on Organisations that access ContactPoint via accredited the location of children’s homes available to the police. computer systems will be asked to register IP address(es) Children’s homes are required to notify the police for any computer that will be used to gain access. The where a child from the home has been involved in a number of IP addresses each organisation supplies will serious incident. The home is also required to have depend on many factors, including their network effective protocols in place that involve the police for architecture. Some organisations will supply one IP instances where children go missing from care. address, others will supply a range. 701W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 702W

Children: Human Trafficking Departmental Complaints

Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what estimate he has Children, Schools and Families what procedure his made of the number of children recovered from Department follows for dealing with complaints trafficking activities who have subsequently gone received (a) by e-mail, (b) by post, (c) by telephone missing from local authority care in the last 12 months. and (d) via his Department’s website. [274530] [273058] Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Upon receipt of a complaint, Beverley Hughes: Although information is collected no matter how it is received, the Department will respond centrally about the number of children who go missing within 15 working days. If it is not possible to give a full from their care placement, it is not possible to derive reply within this time, for example, if a complaint data from these statistics about the number who may requires more detailed investigation, we will provide an have been trafficked before coming into care. interim response outlining what is being done to deal The information collected for 2007-08 can be found with the complaint, when a full reply can be expected in Table LAB5 on the weblink as follows: and from whom. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000810/ FinalDecemberTables.xls Departmental Official Hospitality Local authorities have a range of duties to support looked after children to ensure that their needs are met Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for including that they are effectively safeguarded. The care Children, Schools and Families how much his plan of looked after children known to have been Department and its predecessor spent on event previously trafficked should include how to minimise management services in each of the last three years; the risk of traffickers being able to re-involve a child in and whether such services were supplied by external exploitative activities and contingency procedures to be providers. [274961] followed if the young person goes missing from care. Children: Protection Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Department’s spend on event management services in each of the last three Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for years cannot be collated without incurring disproportionate Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the answer cost. of 14 January 2009, Official Report, column 548W, on children: protection, what legal qualifications the Departmental Pay senior officials who supplied the professional advice on the publication of the serious case review have. [264255] John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many staff Beverley Hughes [holding answer 17 March 2009]: employed in London on work contracted out by his Ministers receive advice from officials with a range of Department earn less than £7.45 per hour. [274950] relevant professional qualifications, including legal qualifications. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Department currently pays all directly and indirectly employed staff working on its Coln House Special School London site at least £7.45 per hour. Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families whether he has received a Departmental Stationery proposal from Gloucestershire County Council to change the status of Coln House Special School. Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for [274946] Children, Schools and Families how much his Department and its predecessors have spent on Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I can confirm that the Secretary branded stationery and gifts for (a) internal and (b) of State has not, to date, received a copy of a statutory external promotional use in each of the last five years. proposal notice relating to Coln House Special School. [273776] The responsibility for considering formal proposals about school organisation is a local decision making Sarah McCarthy-Fry: To provide a comprehensive process and is the responsibility of the LA. The independent answer would incur disproportionate costs. schools adjudicator considers any appeals against proposals being made by a LA. Pre-school Education: Tamworth The Department has introduced guidance for LAs and other proposers on “Planning and Developing Special Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Educational Needs Provision”. The guidance requires Children, Schools and Families how many children in that when considering any reorganisation of special Tamworth constituency took up free nursery places in educational needs (SEN) provision proposers will need each of the last 10 years. [274374] to demonstrate to parents, the local community and decision makers how the proposed alternative arrangements Beverley Hughes: The Department publishes information are likely to lead to improvements in the standard, on the part-time equivalent number of free early education quality and/or range of educational provision for children places filled by three and four year-olds. This is derived with SEN. by counting children taking up 12 and a half hours per 703W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 704W week as one place, 10 hours per week as 0.8 places, Table 1 provides this information for Tamworth seven and a half hours per week as 0.6 places, five hours parliamentary constituency area from 2004 to 2008. per week as 0.4 places and two and a half hours per Data at parliamentary constituency level are not available week as 0.2 places. prior to 2004.

Table 1: Part-time equivalent number of free early education places1, 2, 3 filled by 3 and 4-year-olds: Parliamentary constituency, Tamworth—Position in January each year 3-year-olds 4-year-olds Other maintained and Other maintained and Maintained nursery private, voluntary and Maintained nursery private, voluntary and and primary schools4 independent providers5 Total 3 year olds and primary schools6 independent providers7 Total 4 year olds

2004 260 610 870 900 120 1,000 2005 310 590 910 900 140 1,000 2006 260 560 830 850 190 1,000 2007 310 650 950 760 190 950 2008 310 690 1,000 820 230 1,100 1 A place is equal to 12.5 hours (five sessions) and can be filled by more than one child. 2 Figures are rounded to the nearest 100 if they exceed 1000 and to the nearest 10 otherwise. 3 Prior to 2004, information on early education places was derived from returns made by local authorities as part of the nursery education grant (NEG) data collection exercise. These data were collected at local authority level, therefore, data for this parliamentary constituency prior to 2004 is not available. 4 Headcount of children aged three at 31 December in the previous calendar year. Data taken from the School Census. 5 Part-time equivalent number of children aged three at 31st December in the previous calendar year. Data taken from the Early Years Census and the School Census. 6 Headcount of children aged four at 31st December in the previous calendar year. Data taken from the School Census. 7 Part-time equivalent number of children aged four at 31 December in the previous calendar year. Data taken from the Early Years Census and the School Census.

The latest figures on early education places for three joint approach to prevent young people with housing and four year olds in England were published in Statistical needs being passed between services unnecessarily and First Release (SFR) 12/2008 “Provision for children to maximise positive accommodation outcomes for them. under five years of age in England: January 2008”, Specific guidance was given on supporting care leavers. available on the Department’s website Information about the how such partnerships operate http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000790/ locally is not collected centrally. index.shtml Runaway Children SOLICITOR-GENERAL Ann Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Council Tax: Second Homes Children, Schools and Families which local authorities will be assessed under national indicator 71 on young Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Solicitor-General people who run away from home or care. [274179] how many people have been prosecuted for a false claim for a council tax discount on a second home in Beverley Hughes: As part of the monitoring of the last year for which figures are available. [274084] performance under national indicator 71, all local authorities must provide quarterly self-assessments on John Healey: I have been asked to reply. the extent to which their Children’s Trust, local Safeguarding The administration of council tax is a matter for Children’s Board, or other delegated body has a picture individual local authorities and data on prosecutions of patterns of running away in their area; of how this are not collected centrally. information informs local service provision; and of what procedures are in place to respond to the needs of young runaways. HEALTH One local authority—Warwickshire—has selected Tuberculosis national indicator 71 as one of indicators for which a specified target for improvement is attached, as part of Out-of-hours GP Care their local area agreement. 8. David Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for Supporting People Programme Health what recent representations he has received on the performance of private healthcare companies Helen Southworth: To ask the Secretary of State for contracted to provide out-of-hours GP care. [274105] Children, Schools and Families in which local authority areas children’s services work directly with Mr. Bradshaw: We have had no recent correspondence the Supporting People programme to commission on the general issue of private healthcare companies accommodation support services for (a) young people contracted to provide out of hours general practitioner at risk and (b) care leavers. [271342] care. However, we have had correspondence on the Dr. Daniel Ubani case. Beverley Hughes: In May 2008, DCLG and DCSF Neither the National Audit Office report on out of jointly issued guidance “Joint working between Housing hours services from May 2006 nor the Healthcare and Children’s Services—Preventing homelessness and Commission review of Urgent and Emergency care tackling its effects on children and young people”. This from September 2008 reported any evidence that asks LA children’s services and housing services, including independent sector providers delivered a lower quality services funded by Supporting People, to establish a of out of hours care. 705W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 706W

GP Access Mr. Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his latest assessment is of the adequacy of 12. Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for maternity services in (a) Gravesham and (b) England. Health what steps he is taking to ensure that patients [274113] resident in border areas of England have access to a GP registered in England. [274109] Phil Hope: In 2008, the Healthcare Commission published ‘Towards better births, a review of maternity Mr. Bradshaw: We are aware of a small number of services in England’ which assessed the quality, capability cases where patients resident in England, registered and efficiency of maternity services in England. with a general practitioner (GP) in Wales, have had The South East Coast Strategic Health Authority difficulty switching to an English GP because they do undertook a needs-assessment of maternity services not live within any English GP practice’s boundaries. across west Kent in 2008. This was discussed with Gloucestershire NHS during a visit to the Forest of Dean last week and they will seek Cervarix Vaccine to resolve the case of the particular couple he has raised. They also intend surveying all Gloucestershire residents registered with GPs in Wales to measure how 15. Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for many might wish to change and will consider providing Health what steps his Department has taken to new GP services in the area covered. investigate recent reports of partial paralysis and severe chronic fatigue syndrome experienced by a number of Specialist Hospitals girls shortly after receiving the Cervarix vaccine. [274112] 13. Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his policy is on the future of specialist Dawn Primarolo: The Medicines and Healthcare products hospitals within the NHS. [274110] Regulatory Agency (MHRA) considers the safety of vaccines to be of paramount importance and has in Mr. Bradshaw: The organisation of services to deliver place a proactive strategy to monitor the safety of high quality care is the responsibility of the local and Cervarix vaccine as girls are immunised in the United regional NHS. There can be a strong future for specialist Kingdom. hospitals but this will depend on their providing services To date almost one million doses of Cervarix have that the NHS wishes to commission and which are been given in the UK and there is no evidence to suggest sustainable. that Cervarix vaccine has caused chronic fatigue syndrome, paralytic disorders or any other serious or long-term Maternity Services side effects.

14. Angela Watkinson: To ask the Secretary of State NHS Dentistry for Health what recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of the level of provision of maternity services 16. Mr. Swayne: To ask the Secretary of State for in (a) Upminster and (b) England. [274111] Health what estimate he has made of the number of people not registered with an NHS dentist. [274114] Phil Hope: In 2008, the Healthcare Commission published ‘Towards better births, a review of maternity services in England’ which assessed the quality, capability Dawn Primarolo: 52.9 per cent. of the population of and efficiency of maternity services in England. England saw a national health service dentist in the 24 months ending September 2008. There has been no local assessment of maternity services in Upminster specifically, but a general assessment We have increased dental funding to over £2 billion of midwifery services in the area highlighted the need and made it a national priority in the NHS operating for more resources in midwifery and support services. framework that primary care trusts commission services Investment and recruitment plans are already in place to ensure access to anyone who seeks help in finding an to address this issue. NHS dentist. The NHS is planning that all PCTs will deliver this by March 2011. 22. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his latest assessment is of the 19. Mr. Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for adequacy of maternity services in (a) Peterborough Health what his estimate is of the ratio of NHS constituency and (b) England. [274120] dentists to residents in (a) Kettering, (b) Northamptonshire and (c) England; and if he will Phil Hope: In 2008, the Healthcare Commission make a statement. [274117] published “Towards better births, a review of maternity services in England”which assessed the quality, capability Dawn Primarolo: The information is only available to and efficiency of maternity services in England. primary care trust (PCT) level. As of 31 March 2008 Peterborough Primary Care Trust commissions most there were 41 national health service dentists per 100,000 of its maternity services from Peterborough and Stamford patients in England. In Northamptonshire PCT there Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust. This includes the births were 38. at home, within the midwifery led unit and in the The dental work force is growing. The same data obstetric unit. The caesarean section rate is one of the show that there were 655 more dentists working in the lowest in the country. NHS in 2007-08 than there were in the previous year. 707W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 708W

Allergy Services Social Enterprises

17. Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for 23. Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the outcome of Health what progress has been made in developing the the specialist allergy services hub pilot in the north- role of social enterprises in the provision of NHS west; and if he will make a statement. [274115] healthcare. [274121]

Mr. Bradshaw: NHS North West have spent the last Phil Hope: In support of the “Right to Request” nine months developing a model for networked allergy commitment, we have produced guidance and templates services, to be launched in October 2009. and we are working with NHS Pensions, commissioners Means of assessing the effectiveness of this model are and our pathfinders to further increase understanding being integrated into service planning. The strategic and capacity. health authority (SHA) will liaise regularly with fellow Through the Social Enterprise Investment Fund, the SHAs to share early learning. Department has so far invested £20 million in 200 start-up and existing social enterprises. Thalidomide Prescription Costs 18. Natascha Engel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what funding his Department provides 24. Mr. Graham Brady: To ask the Secretary of State specifically to support those people affected by for Health if he will review the pricing of thalidomide. [274116] pharmaceutical specials on NHS prescriptions for the purpose of identifying savings in prescription costs. Dawn Primarolo: I refer my hon. Friend to the oral [274122] answer I gave earlier today. Dawn Primarolo: I refer the hon. Member to the oral Hospital Acquired Infection answer given to him earlier today.

20. Mr. Robathan: To ask the Secretary of State for Julie Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his latest estimate is of the number of Health what assessment he has made of the merits of people who (a) acquired infections and (b) died from introducing a national target for reducing the incidence infections acquired in hospital in the last 12 months. of tuberculosis. [274104] [274118] Dawn Primarolo: The national health service next Mr. Bradshaw: Best available surveillance data show stage review considered all aspects of healthcare including 3,208 methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) tuberculosis and the need to set new targets. It introduced and 40,704 Clostridium difficile (C. difficile) reports in no new national targets, to ensure that the NHS continues 2008 and 910 Glycopeptide resistant Enterococci reports to focus on the small number of targets in the NHS in October 2006 to September 2007 and 418 surgical site operating framework. Where the incidence of tuberculosis infections in orthopaedic surgery in April 2007 to March is a local issue, primary care trusts are empowered to 2008. deal with it. In 2007, the Office for National Statistics recorded 460 deaths where MRSA and 4,056 deaths where Alcoholic Drinks: Children Clostridium difficile was mentioned on the death certificate as the underlying cause. James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for Latest figures show MRSA infections are down 38 per Health how many children aged under 10 years cent. on the same quarter in 2007, and C. difficile attended hospital accident and emergency departments infections in patients over two-years-old are down 35 per where the primary or secondary diagnosis was alcohol- cent. on the same quarter in 2007. related in each health trust area in each of the last three years. [273862] NHS Hospitals: Bexley Dawn Primarolo: The information requested on alcohol- 21. Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for related attendances in accident and emergency departments Health what recent assessment he has made of the is not collected centrally. performance of NHS hospital services in Bexley. Cancer: Health Services [274119]

Mr. Bradshaw: Annual assessment of performance is Dr. Gibson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health undertaken by the Care Quality Commission, formerly what plans (a) his Department and (b) the National Healthcare Commission. Their last report was published Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence has to in October 2008. provide (i) cancer and (ii) cancer-related lymphoedema The details for his local hospital and primary care patients equal access to specialist NHS treatment in trust are available on the new regulator the CQC’s each region. [273671] website Dawn Primarolo: It is the responsibility of primary www.cqc.org.uk care trusts to make decisions on the commissioning of and on NHS Choices lymphoedema services based on guidance already issued www.nhs.uk. by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence 709W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 710W

(NICE) on treatment for lymphoedema. In 2002, NICE Injuries: Children updated its “Improving outcomes in breast cancer” guidance, which makes recommendations on the James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for identification and management of lymphoedema and Health how many children aged under 10 years on the provision of lymphoedema services. In 2004, attended hospital accident and emergency departments NICE made further recommendations for commissioners where the primary or secondary diagnosis was a stab of health services on the provision of the range and wound or other injury inflicted by a sharp or pointed volume of rehabilitation services, including lymphoedema instrument in each health trust area in the last 12 therapists, in its “Improving Supportive and Palliative months for which figures are available. [273863] care for Adults with Cancer”guidance. Recommendations on lymphoedema management were also made in NICE’S Dawn Primarolo: Information about the number of clinical guidelines on breast cancer published in February children aged 10 years or younger, who have been 2009. This guidance can be found on NICE’s website at: admitted to hospital accident and emergency departments www.nice.org.uk. where the primary or secondary diagnosis was a stab Through the Department’s National Cancer Survivorship wound or other injury inflicted by a sharp or pointed Initiative, formally launched in September 2008, we are instrument is not collected centrally and it is therefore looking at the late effects and long-term consequences not possible to specify numbers. of cancer and its treatment, including effects such as lymphoedema. Lyme Disease Drugs: Children Mr. Brady: To ask the Secretary of State for Health James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for what guidance his Department has issued on the Health what the total cost of prescribing anti-psychotic treatment of borreliosis. [273621] drugs to persons under the age of 16 years was in each health trust area in the last 12 months for which figures Dawn Primarolo: Clinical guidelines for the treatment are available. [273861] of borreliosis, commonly known as Lyme disease, are provided to general practitioners and other physicians Dawn Primarolo: This information is not held in the by the Health Protection Agency (HPA) and published format requested. on the HPA’s website at: Health Services www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/ HPAweb_C/1204031510081?p=1199451958599 Mr. Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The treatment guidelines published by the Infectious how many NHS facilities have been (a) closed and (b) Diseases Society of America in 20061 are included had a reduction in the number of services provided within the HPA’s advice, together with published guidance since May 1997. [274638] for the diagnosis and treatment of neuroborreliosis2,3. In addition, the HPA’s Lyme Disease Reference Unit Ann Keen: The information requested is not held advises clinicians directly on treatment and patient referral centrally. as appropriate. Deciding where and how to provide national health Source: service services is a matter for the local NHS, in conjunction 1 with clinicians, patients and other stakeholders. The The Clinical Assessment, Treatment, and Prevention of Lyme Disease, Human Granulocytic Anaplasmosis and Babesiosis: Clinical Department’s 2008 publication—“Leading Local Practice Guidelines by the Infectious Diseases Society of America. Change”—makes clear that any changes should be locally Wormser GP, Dattwyler RJ, Shapiro ED, et al. Clinical Infectious led, clinically driven and built upon a sound clinical Diseases 2006; 43: 1089-34. Available at: case for change. A copy has already been placed in the www.journals.uchicago.edu/CID/journal/issues/v43n9/40897/ Library. 40897.html Influenza: Vaccination 2 Halperin JJ, Logigian EL, Finkel MF, Pearl RA. Practice parameters for the diagnosis of patients with nervous system Lyme borreliosis (Lyme disease). Quality Standards Subcommittee Mr. Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for of the American Academy of Neurology. Neurology 1996 46: Health what steps he is taking to ensure that 619-627. immunosuppressive people with a prescription for 3 Practice Parameter: Treatment of nervous system Lyme disease influenza vaccine have access to the vaccine; and if he (an evidence-based review). Report of the Quality Standards will make a statement. [274943] Subcommittee of the American Academy of Neurology.E-published ahead of print on 23 May 2007. Available at: Dawn Primarolo: The national policy is that seasonal www.neurology.org/cgi/rapidpdf/0l.wnl.0000265517 .66976.28vl influenza vaccine should be offered to all those aged six months or over in a clinical at-risk group, including immunosuppression. The responsibility for ordering Methadone seasonal influenza vaccines for the target population lies with general practitioners (GPs). GPs have a contractual James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for responsibility to their primary care trust under the Health what the cost of prescribing methadone was in Primary Medical Services (Directed Enhanced Services) each NHS trust in the last 12 months for which figures (England) Directions 2006 to develop a proactive and are available. [273864] preventative approach to offering immunisation against influenza with the aim of maximising uptake in the Dawn Primarolo: The information requested has been interest of at-risk patients. placed in the Library. 711W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 712W

NHS: Theft Social Services

Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Anne Milton: To ask the Secretary of State for for Health what the job descriptions of his Health how many thefts from NHS premises have been Department’s Deputy Regional Directors for Social recorded in each of the last five years. [274989] Care and Partnerships are; and who has been appointed to each such post. [272548] Ann Keen: The information is not available centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Phil Hope: The deputy regional director’s job description is contained in “Job Proforma—Deputy Regional Director” which has been placed in the Library. Radon Gas The appointed deputy regional directors are:

Deputy regional director Mr. Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether his Department plans to provide (a) high level London Ian Winter alerts and (b) public health advice to those resident in North West David Jones areas prone to high levels of radon gas. [273618] North East Wendy Balmain Yorkshire and the Humber Philip Lewer (Interim) Dawn Primarolo: Householders and employers are East Midlands Rachel Holynska able to find out the risk of a high radon gas level in a West Midlands Denise Porter property from the radon probability maps of the United East of England Amanda Reynolds Kingdom published by the Health Protection Agency South West Lynne Dean (HPA) and, for England and Wales, the British Geological South East Ian Bainbridge Survey. The HPA operates a website Swine Flu: Health Education www.ukradon.org. Malcolm Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for It holds annual radon forums with local government, Health what steps have been taken to make swine the national health service, the Building Research influenza information distributed by the Government Establishment (BRE) and other stakeholders to publicise accessible to deaf people who use British Sign the radon programme, to receive feedback, and to explore Language. [274725] any policy gaps. HPA also supports regional radon steering groups comprising groupings of local authorities Dawn Primarolo: A British Sign Language version of in high risk areas of England and recommends testing the swine flu information leaflet will been available to homes in radon affected areas (that is where 1 per cent. download from the NHS Choices and Directgov websites or more of homes are estimated to be above the Action 3 from Thursday 14 May and by DVD from Wednesday Level of 200 Bequerels/m ). 20 May. The basis of the Government radon programme in England for existing homes is to target the higher risk Malcolm Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for areas, where 5 per cent. or more of the houses are Health what provisions his Department will make to estimated to be above the action level. Radon testing ensure that deaf and hearing-impaired people have programmes are run in partnership between HPA and access to the same information as hearing people in local authorities, with radon tests offered free to respect of the National Flu Helpline. [274940] householders in these areas. The local primary care trust and the BRE provide support and registered social Dawn Primarolo: The Swine Flu Information helpline landlords such as local councils and housing associations is automated. It offers recorded information but no are encouraged to extend the radon testing programmes interaction with call handlers and is not therefore accessible to all their properties in radon affected areas. HPA to deaf or hearing impaired people. However, deaf and informs householders and landlords by letter of the hearing-impaired people may access the same information result of the radon test and whether it is near to or through websites and a British Sign Language version exceeds the action level. If so, remediation is advised of the swine flu information leaflet, available from the and householders are encouraged to attend special local NHS Choices and Directgov websites from Thursday events to discuss remediation organised jointly by the 14 May and on DVD from Wednesday 20 May. HPA, the relevant local authority and the BRE. A small number of homes in England have been found to have radon levels in excess of 10,000 Bq/m3 (50 times the action level). HPA offers financial help and works with COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT the local authority to remediate these homes, using advice from the BRE to help local contractors. Community Development Devolved Administrations generally mirror English policies and contribute proportionate funds to HPA for Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for each initiative. In particular, a similar radon programme Communities and Local Government which has recently been announced by the Scottish Government, organisation was awarded the contract as the national to accompany publication by the HPA of new radon partner for the Community Builders programme. maps for Scotland. [272445] 713W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 714W

Mr. Khan: The competition for the contract to act as Departmental Procurement national partner for the Community builders programme is still in progress. The Department is currently evaluating Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for tenders and expects to make an announcement in June. Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer of 4 February 2009, Official Report, column Council Tax 1279W, on departmental procurement, what the title was of the digital mapping project; and what services Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for that project was commissioned to provide. [273595] Communities and Local Government pursuant to the contribution of the Minister for Local Government on Mr. Khan: The project is called the Pan-Government 26 March 2009, Official Report, column 473W, on Agreement, which provides a portfolio of geographical council tax, what ideas were submitted to the Minister information to central Government Departments. We by the hon. Member for Southampton. [273339] procured aerial photography from Infoterra.

John Healey: The contents of letters from an individual Departmental Responsibilities Member to Communities and Local Government Ministers are treated as private; and, unless the sender specifies Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for otherwise, are not released for public consumption. Communities and Local Government which Minister is responsible for each regional spatial strategy. [273598] Council Tax: Valuation Mr. Khan: The Secretary of State for Communities Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for and Local Government has overall responsibility for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the regional spatial strategies. answer to the hon. Member for Peterborough of Day to day responsibility for the eight regional spatial 12 March 2009, Official Report, column 736W, on strategies is divided among the CLG ministerial team as council tax: valuation, how many domestic dwellings in follows. England were assigned the code CL26 in each year I have responsibility for: between 1997-98 and 2005-06. [273685] South East; East Midlands; John Healey: The number of properties in England East of England; reviewed and cleared with the notification code CL26 in each year between 1997-98 and 2005-06 is shown in the Yorkshire and Humber. following table. Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Baroness Andrews has responsibility for: Number South West; West Midlands; 1997-98 60,365 North West; 1998-99 53,811 North East. 1999-2000 50,844 2000-01 39,010 Derelict Land: Gardens 2001-02 27,724 2002-03 31,002 Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for 2003-04 36,652 Communities and Local Government by what date she 2004-05 29,928 expects her Department to have completed the first 2005-06 31,147 stage of its review of the effect of development on gardens. [274824] Departmental Complaints Mr. Iain Wright: The deadline for responses from Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for local authorities is 29 May, and we aim to conclude the Communities and Local Government what procedure review by the summer. her Department follows for dealing with complaints received (a) by e-mail, (b) by post, (c) by telephone Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for and (d) via her Department’s website. [274529] Communities and Local Government how many responses from local authorities her Department has Mr. Khan: Full details of how Communities and received to its review of the effect of development on Local Government handles complaints via all these gardens. [274825] channels can be found on the Communities website at: http://www.communities.gov.uk/corporate/about/freedom-of- Mr. Iain Wright: We will make further statements information/complaintsprocedure/ about the review in due course. Departmental Internet Domestic Violence

Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what funding has Communities and Local Government what been assigned to the production of video content for contribution her Department has made to the cross- her Department’s YouTube channel in 2009-10. Government consultation, Together We Can End [273758] Violence Against Women and Children and to the development of Government policy in this area. Mr. Khan: None. [274230] 715W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 716W

Mr. Khan: Communities and Local Government has Fire Services been positively engaged with work on, “Together We Can End Violence Against Women and Girls” on which Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Office is leading, since it commenced last Communities and Local Government if she will make year. During the development of the consultation document, it her policy to give fire authorities the power to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities promote well-being. [274783] and Local Government wrote to the Home Secretary to affirm her support for this important agenda particularly Mr. Khan: The power to promote well being is available through work on the domestic violence agenda, the to local authorities as defined in Section 1 of the Local Supporting People programme and through the domestic Government Act 2000 (LGA 2000). That includes those violence virtual unit. The Department’s officials have county councils which are also fire and rescue authorities actively supported the cross-government working group (FRAs). that has shaped and developed the current consultation document. The possible extension of the power to promote well being contained within Section 2 of LGA 2000 to all Economic Situation FRAs was considered at the request of consultees in 2003 prior to the introduction of the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the The power to promote well being is intended to answer to the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield of reflect the unique community leadership role of local 2 April 2009, Official Report, columns 1498-502W, on authorities and consequently it has not been extended departmental conferences, if she will place in the to any other form of authority with responsibility for Library a copy of the presentations and handouts delivery of public services. For this reason, and because produced for the Regeneration in Recession seminar on we believe the powers available to FRAs are sufficient 18 February 2009. [273459] to enable them to undertake any activities required to fulfil the duties and responsibilities placed on them by Mr. Khan: Henry Overman and Ian Gordon of the legislation and the national framework for the fire and Spatial Economics Research Centre, London School of rescue service, it was not considered appropriate to Economics, presented their views at the Regeneration in amend the scope of this power more widely. Recession seminar on 18 February 2009. External First Time Buyers stakeholders are responsible for their own presentations and handouts. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Performance Certificates Communities and Local Government how much funding has been allocated to the First Time Buyers Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Initiative for each of the next three years. [274835] Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer of 5 May 2009, Official Report, column 128W, Mr. Iain Wright: I refer the hon. Member to the reply on energy performance certificates, how many fixed I gave him on 23 March 2009, Official Report, columns penalties have been imposed on landlords in each 67-68W. month since the provisions of the Energy Performance Freedom of Information of Buildings Directive took effect in England. [274958]

Mr. Iain Wright: Penalty notices are issued by local Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for weights and measures authorities who are empowered Communities and Local Government pursuant to the to enforce the Energy Performance of Buildings (Certificates answer to the hon. Member for Peterborough of and Inspections) England and Wales) Regulations 2007. 17 March 2009, Official Report, column 1106W, on There is no requirement for the Department to be freedom of information, (1) if she will place in the informed when a penalty charge notice is issued. Library a copy of the substantive reply given to Freedom of Information Act 2000 request reference: EU Grants and Loans F0002744, on the Church of Scientology, redacting the name and address of the recipient; [272326] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) if she will place in the Library a copy of the Communities and Local Government pursuant to the substantive reply given to Freedom of Information answer to the hon. Member for Peterborough of Act 2000 request reference: F0002977, on all 12 March 2009, Official Report, column 740W, on the communications between Lord Taylor of Blackburn European Commission: financial corrections, what the and Ministers and senior civil servants at the monetary value is of the provision made for further Department about plans by Canatxx to build a gas financial corrections relating to audits carried out on storage facility at Preesall from 2005 up to the present the 1997 to 1999 round of structural fund programmes. date, redacting the name and address of the recipient; [273684] [272327] (3) if she will place in the Library a copy of the John Healey: The provision made for further financial substantive reply given to Freedom of Information corrections relating to audits carried out on the 1997 to Act 2000 request reference: F0002967, on organisations 1999 round of structural fund programmes was £25.7 or projects that have received funding to date on the million, as stated in paragraph 1.20.7 of the Department’s Preventing Extremism Together Initiative, redacting 2007-08 resource accounts. the name and address of the recipient. [272328] 717W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 718W

Mr. Khan: I have today placed copies of the responses Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for to these three Freedom of Information requests in the Communities and Local Government (1) what the House Library. Right to Acquire discount limit for each local authority is; [274853] Housing: Construction (2) what discount was available to tenants under the Right to Acquire scheme in each local authority area in Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for each year since 1997. [274868] Communities and Local Government how many and what proportion of new dwellings were built on Mr. Iain Wright: The discount available to tenants previously residential land in (a) England and (b) under the right to acquire scheme in each local authority each Government Office region in England in the most area is set out in The Housing (Right to Acquire) recent year for which figures are available. [273239] (Discount) Order 2002 (Statutory Instrument 2002 No 1091). This is available on the website of the Office Mr. Iain Wright: The percentage, and estimated number, of Public Sector Administration: of new dwellings built on previously-residential land in http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/uksi_20021091_en.pdf 2007 by region and for England are given in the following table: Between 1997, when the right to acquire scheme was introduced, and 2002, the available discounts were specified New dwellings on previously residential land by Government Office Region 2007 annually in the following statutory instruments: Percentage dwellings Estimated dwellings on The Housing (Right to Acquire) (Discount) Order 1998 (SI on residential land residential land 1998/2014)

North East 14 1,200 The Housing (Right to Acquire) (Discount) Order 1999 (SI 1999/1135) North West 22 4,300 Yorkshire and 24 4,100 The Housing (Right to Acquire) (Discount) (Amendment) the Humber Order 1999 (SI 1999/3028) East Midlands 19 3,500 The Housing (Right to Acquire) (Discount) Order 2000 (SI West Midlands 23 3,300 2000/1622) East of England 29 6,600 The Housing (Right to Acquire) (Discount) Order 2001 (SI London 37 8,300 2001/1501) South East 32 9,800 These are also available on the website of the Office South West 28 5,700 of Public Sector Administration: England 27 47,100 http://search.opsi.gov.uk/search?client=semaphore_front end&btnG=Search&site=SI&output=xml_no_dtd&proxystylesheet Housing: Low Incomes =opsisearch_semaphore&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&as_q=right%20to% 20acquire%20discount&as_ft=i&as_occt=any Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for answer of 27 April 2009, Official Report, column Communities and Local Government (1) how much 1117W, on housing: low incomes, what the average cash her Department and its predecessors received in Right incentive grant was (a) in England and (b) in each to Buy clawbacks in each year since 1997; [274864] region of England in each year since 1997. [272853] (2) over what period a former social tenant is liable for clawback under the Right to Buy scheme. [274867] Mr. Iain Wright: This information is not held centrally.

Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Iain Wright: Under section 155 of the Housing Communities and Local Government what estimate Act 1985, social landlords which have sold properties she has made of the number of major works voids in under the right to buy scheme may require former social social housing in each (a) region and (b) local tenants who have bought properties and choose to authority area in England. [274258] dispose of them within five years of the right to buy sale to repay all or part of the discount they received. Mr. Iain Wright: The term social housing has been The decision on whether to require repayment rests interpreted as social rented dwellings let by local authorities solely with the landlord. Neither the Department for or registered social landlords. Communities and Local Government nor any of its A table showing the number of vacant dwellings in predecessor Departments have received any funds as a each region and local authority area undergoing or result of social landlords deciding to require former awaiting works has been placed in the House Library. tenants to repay right to buy discount. Figures for RSL dwellings that are vacant and awaiting major works are not available at regional or local authority Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for level. However, figures are available showing the number Communities and Local Government pursuant to the of RSL dwellings which are vacant but unavailable for answer of 6 May 2009, Official Report, column letting at a local authority and regional level. A table 245-6W, on housing: low incomes, (1) what the showing these figures has been placed in the House maximum right to buy discount is in each of the local Library. Figures for RSLs are for general needs self- authorities offering cash incentives for their tenants to contained units only. leave the social rented sector; [274877] 719W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 720W

(2) how many local authorities which offer cash on council housing, when the Homes and Communities incentives for social renters to buy a property are in Agency’s review of the benchmarks for high quality areas where restricted right to buy discounts apply urban design, construction and environmental under the Housing (Right to Buy) (Limits on sustainability is expected to be completed. [274889] Discount) (Amendment) Order 2003. [274878] Mr. Iain Wright: The Homes and Communities Agency’s Mr. Iain Wright: The information requested is set out (HCA) review of standards is planned to culminate in in the following table. As reported by local authorities the publication of new HCA Design and Sustainability through the 2007-08 Housing Strategy Statistical Appendix, Standards document in April 2010, in advance of the listed local authorities in England provided cash application of the new standards. These new standards incentive scheme grants, under section 129 of the Housing will apply to new national housing programmes from Act 1988, to assist tenants to acquire an interest in a April 2011, on completion of the HCA’s legacy National new home in 2007-08. Grants under section 129 cannot Affordable Housing programme (NAHP). Where possible, be used for the purpose of assisting local authority earlier implementation of the new standards will apply tenants buy their existing council home. to new housing projects developed on HCA land where HCA is undertaking the role of developer direct. £ Changed under Judicial Review Housing (Right to Buy)(Limits on Discount)(Amendment) Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Local authority offering Maximum right to buy Order 2003 Communities and Local Government to what (a) cash incentive scheme discount (previously) completed judicial review cases and (b) partial review Barnet 16,000 (38,000) cases involving a ministerial decision (i) her Bournemouth 30,000 — Department and (ii) its agencies have been a party in Camden 16,000 (38,000) the last 36 months; and what the title and outcome of Carrick (now Cornwall 30,000 — each such case was. [274904] Council) Chesterfield 24,000 — Mr. Khan: This information is not held centrally and Croydon 16,000 (38,000) could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Dartford 38,000 —- Ealing 16,000 (38,000) Local Government Finance Enfield 16,000 (38,000) Hackney 16,000 (38,000) Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Hammersmith and 16,000 (38,000) Communities and Local Government with reference to Fulham page 130 of Budget 2009, what steps she plans to take Harrow 16,000 (38,000) in respect of local authorities which do not contribute Hillingdon 16,000 (38,000) adequately to the £600 million of additional recyclable Ipswich 34,000 — savings required from local authorities in 2010-11. Kingston upon Thames 16,000 (38,000) [273360] Lambeth 16,000 (38,000) Lewisham 16,000 (38,000) John Healey: The local government sector has a Mid Devon 30,000 — strong track record of delivering substantial value for North Cornwall (now 30,000 — Cornwall Council) money savings. Authorities are working to go further North Hertfordshire 34,000 — and are raising their ambition for efficiency. Both central Norwich 34,000 — and local government have identified more scope for Purbeck 30,000 — increased efficiencies which will allow a further one Redbridge 16,000 (38,000) percentage point to be added to the totals savings target Redditch 26,000 — in 2010-11 taking it to at least 4 per cent. This will Selby 24,000 — generate an additional £600 million in savings across South Cambridgeshire 34,000 — the sector. This money will be directly recycled within St. Albans 34,000 — local authorities’ budgets to be put towards front line Tendring 34,000 — services and keeping council tax down. Three Rivers 34,000 — Local authority efficiency will be measured annually Tower Hamlets 16,000 (38,000) by the national indicator for efficiency savings. The new Wandsworth 16,000 (38,000) comprehensive area assessment (CAA), introduced on Warwick 26,000 — 1 April 2009, will report on performance in each area Watford 16,000 (34,000) against all the national indicators. The first CAA reports West Somerset 30,000 — are expected to be published by the inspectorates in late Westminster 16,000 (38,000) November 2009. Woking 38,000 — Wycombe 38,000 — Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government with reference to Housing: Standards the answer to the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst of 6 November 2008, Official Report, Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for column 654W, on domestic waste, what estimate she Communities and Local Government pursuant to the has made of the effect on the level of performance answer of 5 May 2009, Official Report, column 127W, award grant allocated to local authorities which have 721W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 722W been set local area agreement targets in relation to council elections can request that the Electoral Commission national indicator 191 on residual household waste of directs the Boundary Committee to undertake a review such local authorities not meeting those targets. for the purpose of re-warding the area with single [273670] member wards. Local Government: Equal Pay John Healey: The level of performance reward grant payable will be determined by the average level of Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for performance achieved across all designated targets in Communities and Local Government what assessment the Local Area Agreement, subject to a minimum threshold she has made of the likely effects on local authorities of of 60 per cent. At this stage it is not possible to the ruling of the Court of Appeal in the case of Joyce determine the precise impact on the level of reward Slack and others v. Cumbria county council in relation payable of a local authority not meeting targets based to equal pay claims in the public sector. [274272] upon national indicator 191. The impact will be dependant upon how far short of the target an area’s performance John Healey: Local authorities, in their capacity as on NI 191 has actually fallen at the end of the LAA, employers, are considering the potential implications of how many designated targets were included in the LAA the recent court of appeal judgment in” Joyce Slack and and the level of performance achieved across the other Ors and Cumbria county council”. relevant targets. Communities and Local Government continues to Detailed guidance on the reward model has been monitor the implications of this and similar judgements published at: with the local Government employers organisation. http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/localgovernment/ Local Government: Greater Manchester pdf/1148974.pdf Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Local Government: Bank Services Communities and Local Government what powers the city region pilots will have. [273219] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what plans she John Healey: Work to identify and agree priorities has to amend her Department’s (a) investment advice between the Government and Leeds and Greater to local authorities and (b) procedures for transmitting Manchester will draw on recent work from the Manchester warnings about the risk profile of investments Independent Economic Review and on innovation in identified by the Financial Services Authority to local the Leeds city-region. Proposals will include new strategy- authorities in light of the Icelandic banking collapse. setting powers over adult skills funding, expected to be [273214] in place within three to six months, new joint investment boards with regional development agencies, the Homes John Healey: Under the Local Government Act 2003, and Communities Agency and other partners to co-ordinate local authorities are responsible for their own investment and align investment and the piloting of new employment decisions. My officials are working with the Audit programmes. Further details will be announced in the Commission, CIPFA and the local authority associations summer. to assess how the Department’s investment guidance Local Government: Inspections might be refined in light of the report of the Audit Commission on local authorities and Icelandic banks, Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for and the forthcoming report from the CLG Select Communities and Local Government what the Committee. The Department’s guidance on local timetable is for each local authority to be inspected government investments is available at: under the new Comprehensive Area Assessment; and http://www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/capital/data/ whether authorities with a good or excellent rating lginvest2.pdf under the previous Comprehensive Performance The Financial Services Authority have, for good reasons, Assessment regime will receive fewer inspections than a policy of not commenting publicly on individual others. [273669] institutions. Mr. Khan: This is an operational matter for the Audit Commission and the other local public service inspectorates. Local Government: Elections I have asked the chief executive of the Audit Commission to write to the hon. Member. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Letter from Steve Bundred, dated 12 May 2009: Communities and Local Government what her Parliamentary Question on what the timetable is for each local Department’s policy is on single member wards in local authority to be inspected under the new Comprehensive Area government. [273325] Assessment; and whether authorities with a good or excellent rating under the previous Comprehensive Performance Assessment John Healey: The 2006 Local Government White regime will receive fewer inspections than others. Paper—Strong and prosperous communities—stated that Your Parliamentary Question on the approach to inspection single-member wards offer benefits including providing under the new Comprehensive Area Assessment has been passed a simple, strong link between the councillor and their to me for reply. electorate, and giving clarity of leadership to the area, Comprehensive Area Assessment (CAA) took effect from 1 April while accepting that there is no consensus on this. 2009 and the first set of joint inspectorate reports covering each of the 152 local areas with a Local Area Agreement and all local We have therefore provided a permissive approach in authorities will be published in late 2009. CAA represents a the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health fundamentally different approach to promoting better results for Act 2007 that any principal council who holds whole local people and better value for public money. 723W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 724W

The inspections of local authorities’ corporate arrangements Non-Domestic Rates (known as corporate assessments) used as part of the former Comprehensive Performance Assessment (CPA) framework have ceased. CAA does not require routine programmes of such inspections. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Instead, the inspectorates are drawing on existing evidence and Communities and Local Government whether local the information local authorities and their partners already use to authorities will be refunded under the new burdens manage their businesses to inform the new area assessment. This principle for the cost of rebilling firms which defer 60 focuses on outcomes for local people and therefore for the first per cent. of their business rate increases in 2009. time also holds the councils’ partners accountable for their contribution. [273213] Such routine inspection of local authorities as remains relates primarily to specific services for vulnerable people where the John Healey: As set out in a Business Rates Information inherent risk is high (e.g. Ofsted’s new approach to inspecting Letter from 31 March 2009, which was provided to all child protection arrangements and inspections of youth offending Billing Authorities in England, any net additional costs teams led by HMI Probations). Any other inspections involving to local government as a whole arising from the business local authorities will only be triggered where a specific risk or rates deferral scheme will be fully funded under the new concern has been identified. The total cost of inspection work burdens principle. involving local authorities has reduced by a third from 2003/04 to 2008/09. The Audit commission will play a new coordinating role for all Non-Domestic Rates: Empty Property remaining inspection involving local authorities to ensure that it is risk based and proportionate. Authorities previously assessed as good or excellent (or three or four stars) under CPA, and who Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for are able to demonstrate continued high performance and a strong Communities and Local Government if she will use her contribution to positive outcomes for their locality will continue powers under the Rating (Empty Properties) Act 2007 to receive fewer inspections than others. to reintroduce the pre-April 2008 regime of empty I trust this information is helpful. property business rate relief. [273571] A copy of this letter will be placed in Hansard. John Healey: In the 2008 pre-Budget-report, the Maps: EU Law Government announced a temporary measure for the 2009-10 business rates year, raising the threshold at which rates on empty property become liable from Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for £2,200 to £15,000. 70 per cent. of properties have a Communities and Local Government, what steps the rateable value below £15,000, and if empty, will benefit Valuation Office Agency is taking to comply with the from this measure. UN INSPIRE Directive. [273719] The Government have no current plans to make further changes to empty property rate relief introduced John Healey: The Inspire Directive has limited direct from 1 April 2008. However, as with all taxes, we will application to the Valuation Office Agency. However, keep the position under review. Decisions on taxes are a the Agency keeps itself informed about the application matter for the Chancellor. of the directive and has had dealings with bodies concerned with the directive, including the UK location council. Planning

Mobile Homes Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what timetable Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for has been set for publication of the final version of her Communities and Local Government what the Department’s planning policy statement on economic timetable is for establishment of dispute resolution prosperity. [273735] procedures for park home residents. [273717] Mr. Iain Wright: We expect to publish the final version Mr. Iain Wright: The written ministerial statement I of Planning Policy Statement 4: Planning for Prosperous have made today announced the Government’s intention Economies later this year following consultation. to transfer the jurisdiction on appeals and applications under the Mobile Homes Act 1983 from county courts Planning Permission to Residential Property Tribunals. It is the intention to bring into force the Residential Property Tribunal’s jurisdiction at the earliest opportunity. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government in what areas National Secular Society simplified planning zones have operated; and over what period in each case. [273221]

Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Iain Wright: The Town and Country Planning Communities and Local Government whether her Act 1990 (sections 82-87), amended by the Planning Department has provided funding to the National and Compensation Act 1991 (section 28), provides for Secular Society in the last 12 months. [273212] the creation of simplified planning zones (SPZs). Since the powers were taken, we are aware of six SPZs that Mr. Khan: The Department has not provided funding have been created, two of which remain in existence to the National Secular Society. today. These are listed in the following tables: 725W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 726W

SPZs in operation Parties to an appeal are normally expected to meet SPZ Council Date their own expenses. Costs will normally be awarded Slough Trading Slough Borough From January 1995 to January where the following conditions have been met: Estate Council 2005. On 12 November 2004 Slough a party has made a timely application for an award of costs; Borough Council agreed to a new up-dated version of the SPZ to the party against whom the award is sought has acted unreasonably; run for a further 10 years to 2014. and Kings Norton Birmingham City From November 1998 to 2017. the unreasonable behaviour has caused the party applying for Council costs to incur unnecessary or wasted expense in the appeal process—either the whole of the expense because it should not have been necessary for the matter to be determined by the Other SPZs that have operated in the past Secretary of State or appointed Inspector, or part of the SPZ Council Date expense because of the manner in which a party has behaved in Sir Francis Ley Derby City Council From August 1988 to August 1998. the process. Industrial Park Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre Willowbrook Corby Borough From September 1988 to September Council 1998. Victoria Park Gedling Borough From November 1991 to November Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Council 2001. for Communities and Local Government pursuant to Knowsley Knowsley Information unavailable. the answer to the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield of Industrial Park Metropolitan 23 April 2009, Official Report, column 889W, on Queen Borough Elizabeth II Conference Centre, which public body A new SPZ is proposed in Rochdale. made each of the 29 bookings; what the date and purpose of each booking was; what rooms were hired Planning Permission: Costs on each occasion; and what the aggregate revenue to the Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre was from Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for those bookings. [272147] Communities and Local Government what estimate has been made of the effect of recent changes to the Mr. Iain Wright: This is an operational matter for the planning appeals system in relation to extending the Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre and I have asked costs regimes on local authorities’ expenditure for the chief executive of the Agency to respond to the hon. paying out cost claims to applicants who make a Member direct. planning application and are refused but who win on Letter from Ernest Vincent, dated 12 May 2009: appeal. [273718] Your Parliamentary question asking the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, pursuant to the Answer to Mr. Iain Wright: An assessment of the impacts of the the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield of 23 April 2009, Official guidance in Circular 03/09 ‘Costs Awards in Appeals Report, column 889W, on Queen Elizabeth II (QE2) Conference and other Planning Proceedings’ and the extension of Centre, if she will list the public bodies that made each of the 29 bookings; what was the date and purpose of each booking; what the costs regime to appeals dealt with on the basis of rooms were hired on each occasion; and what was the aggregate representations in writing can be accessed via the following revenue to the QE2 Conference Centre from those bookings has link: been passed to me for reply. http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ The information you request is listed below and the aggregate planningandbuilding/impactassessmentcosts revenue from these bookings has been calculated as £766,320.00:

Public bodies Rooms

22 April 2008 Scheme 2009: Identity Cards for Airport Workers (Identity and Churchill Auditorium and Pickwick Suite Passport Service) 28 April 2008 OSC Info Sharing Day (Department for Children, Schools and Mountbatten Room, Mountbatten Lounge, Keats Families) Room, Robert Burns Room, Shelley Room and Wordsworth Room 19 May 2008 National Pandemic Influenza Workshop (Cabinet Office) Westminster Suite, St. James’s Suite, Chaucer Room, Keats Room, Robert Burns Room, Shelley Room, Wesley Room, Wordsworth Room 28 May 2008 Making the Difference: Equality, Diversity and the Fire and Rescue Mountbatten Room and Mountbatten Lounge Service (Department for Communities and Local Government) 11 June 2008 Trust Schools Conference 2008 (Department for Children, Schools and Mountbatten Room and Mountbatten Lounge, Crown Families) Room, Sovereign Room, Wesley Room, Wordsworth Room 15-20 June 2008 Financial Action Taskforce Conference (HM Treasury) Fleming Room, Benjamin Britten Lounge, Guild Room, Caxton West, Chaucer Room, Whittle Room, Churchill Auditorium, Crown Room 26 June 2008 MoJ IT Profession (Ministry of Justice) Mountbatten Room and Mountbatten Lounge, Abbey Room, Elizabeth Windsor Room, Henry Moore Room, Rutherford Room, St. James’s Suite, Westminster Suite 2 July 2008 Healthcare for London Stakeholder Event (NHS London) Mountbatten Room and Mountbatten Lounge 16 July 2008 NHS Press Conference (NHS London) Fleming Room and Benjamin Britten Lounge 23 September 2008 SCS Forum (Department of Health) Churchill Auditorium and Pickwick Suite 29 September 2008 DC&LAwayDay:Making Connections (Ministry of Justice) Fleming Room and Benjamin Britten Lounge, Whittle Rooms 727W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 728W

Public bodies Rooms

8 October 2008 NHS Consultants Contract Conference (NHS Employers) Churchill Auditorium and Pickwick Suite, Abbey Room, Elizabeth Windsor Room, Henry Moore Room, Rutherford Room, St. James’s Suite 9 October 2008 REACH Role Model Sift Event (Department for Communities and Henry Moore Room and Rutherford Room Local Government) 9 October 2008 Celebrating Success 2008 (Department for Children, Schools and Churchill Auditorium and Pickwick Suite Families) 22 October 2008 DCLG: Collaborative Procurement Forum (Department for Henry Moore Room and Rutherford Room Communities and Local Government) 31 October 2008 Skills for Life Conference 2008—Building on Success: Meeting New Fleming Room and Benjamin Britten Lounge, Abbey Challenges (Department for Children, Schools and Families) Room, Byron Room, Chaucer Room, Crown Room, Elizabeth Windsor Room, Guild Room, Henry Moore Room, Keats Room, Robert Burns Room, Rutherford Room, Shelley Room, Sovereign, St. James’s Suite, Wesley Room, Westminster Suite, Whittle Room, Wordsworth Room 17 November 2008 Above and Beyond (The British Council) Mountbatten Room and Mountbatten Lounge, Abbey Room, Byron Room, Elizabeth Windsor Room, Henry Moore Room, Rutherford Room, St. James’s Suite, Wesley Room, Westminster Suite 7-8 December 2008 NHS Chief Executives Video Conference (Department of Health) Mountbatten Room and Mountbatten Lounge 9 December 2008 PREVENT 08 (Department for Communities and Local Government) Fleming and Whittle Rooms and Benjamin Britten Lounge, Abbey Room, Byron Room, Caxton Lounge, Chaucer Room, Elizabeth Windsor Room, Guild Room, Henry Moore Room, Keats Room, Robert Burns Room, Rutherford Room, Shelley Room, Sovereign Room, St. James’s Suite, Wesley Room, Westminster Suite, Wordsworth Room 22 January 2009 GEO SSG Meeting (Government Equalities Office) Henry Moore Room 28 January 2009 UKBA Senior Manager’s Event (Home Office) Fleming Room and Benjamin Britten Lounge, Crown Room, Guild Room 5 February 2009 Local Involvement Networks (Links) ‘Getting Better Together Fleming and Benjamin Britten Lounge, Abbey Room, Conference’ (Department of Health) Henry Moore Room, Rutherford Room, St. James’s Suite, Wesley Room 9 February 2009 UK Border Agency: Assisted Voluntary Returns Seminar (Home Mountbatten Room and Mountbatten Lounge, Wesley Office) Room, Wordsworth Room 10 February 2009 HPV Implementation Immunisation Programme National Conference Mountbatten Room and Mountbatten Lounge (Department of Health) 26 February 2009 Information about Children, Education and Schools Conference Fleming Room and Benjamin Britten Lounge, Abbey (Department for Children, Schools and Families) Room, Henry Moore Room, Rutherford Room 20 March 2009 RC (S) Senior Officials Meeting (Foreign and Commonwealth Office) Whittle Room and Caxton Lounge 23-24 March 2009 FCO Leadership Conference 2009 (Foreign and Commonwealth Office) Fleming Room and Benjamin Britten Lounge, Caxton Lounge, St. James’s Suite, Westminster Suite, Whittle Room, Fleet Room, Guild Room 24 March 2009 Home Office Senior Civil Service Conference (Home Office) Churchill Auditorium and Pickwick Suite, Sovereign Room 20 March 2009 Care Quality Commission ’Kick Off Event (COI) Churchill Auditorium and Pickwick Suite, Abbey Room, Henry Moore Room, Shelley Room, St. James’s Suite, Westminster Suite

A copy of this letter will be placed in Hansard. Letter from Ernest Vincent, dated 12 May 2009: Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Your Parliamentary question asking the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, pursuant to the Answer of Communities and Local Government pursuant to the 23 April 2009, Official Report, column 889W,on Queen Elizabeth answer of 23 April 2009, Official Report, column II Conference Centre, what the title of each conference held at the 889W, on the Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre, centre by central government department was; which Department what the title was of each conference held at the centre sponsored each event; and how much was charged for each event by central government departments was; which has been passed to me for reply. department sponsored each event; and how much was As has been stated in the reply to the Answer of 23 April 2009, charged for each event. [272555] the policy of the Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre is not to offer discounted rates. Complimentary room hire is offered on Mr. Iain Wright: This is an operational matter for the very rare occasions and only with my authorisation. There also Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre and I have asked must be good reason to do so. The meetings below were, bar one, the chief executive of the agency to write to the hon. charged at the standard list price. The amounts below are exclusive Member direct. of VAT.

Date Conference Department Cost (£)

22 April 2008 Scheme 2009: Identity Cards for Airport Identity and Passport Service 10,230.00 Workers 28 April 2008 OSC Info Sharing Day Department for Children, Schools and Families 12,502.50 19 May 2008 National Pandemic Influenza Workshop Cabinet Office 7,345.00 729W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 730W

Date Conference Department Cost (£)

28 May 2008 Making the Difference: Equality, Diversity and Department for Communities and Local 7,485.00 the Fire and Rescue Service Government 11 June 2008 Trust Schools Conference 2008 Department for Children, Schools and Families 9,505.00 15-20 June 2008 Financial Action Taskforce Conference HM Treasury 84,485.00 26 June 2008 MoJ IT Profession Ministry of Justice 15,020.00 2 July 2008 Healthcare for London Stakeholder Event NHS London 8,685.00 16 July 2008 NHS Press Conference NHS London 13,545.00 23 September 2008 SCS Forum Department of Health 9,645.00 29 September 2008 DC&LAwayDay:Making Connections Ministry of Justice 17,815.00 8 October 2008 NHS Consultants Contract Conference NHS Employers 15,788.50 9 October 2008 REACH Role Model Sift Event Department for Communities and Local 2,090.00 Government 9 October 2008 Celebrating Success 2008 Department for Children, Schools and Families 11,805.00 22 October 2008 DCLG: Collaborative Procurement Forum Department for Communities and Local Chief Executive’s invitation to Government DCLG colleagues to use QEII Conference Centre for a discussion about collaborative procurement 31 October 2008 Skills for Life Conference 2008 Department for Children, Schools and Families 30,815.00 17 November 2008 Above and Beyond The British Council 16,616.00 7 December 2008 NHS Chief Executives Video Conference Department of Health 12,930.00 9 December 2008 PREVENT 08 Department for Communities and Local 30,710.00 Government 22 January 2009 GEO SSG Meeting Government Equalities Office 1,005.00 28 January 2009 UKBA Senior Manager’s Event Home Office 12,775.00 5 February 2009 Local Involvement Networks (Links) ‘Getting Department of Health 15,740.00 Better Together Conference’ 9 February 2009 UK Border Agency: Assisted Voluntary Home Office 8,745.00 Returns Seminar 10 February 2009 HPV Implementation Immunisation Department of Health 6,885.00 Programme National Conference 26 February 2009 Information about Children, Education and Department for Children, Schools and Families 16,335.00 Schools Conference 20 March 2009 RC (S) Senior Officials Meeting Foreign & Commonwealth Office 7,515.00 23-24 March 2009 FCO Leadership Conference 2009 Foreign & Commonwealth Office 43,700.00 24 March 09 Home Office Senior Civil Service Conference Home Office 9,850.00 19-21 April 2009 Care Quality Commission ‘Kick Off’ Event COI 45,447.50

A copy of this letter will be placed in Hansard. Social Rented Housing

Recreation Spaces Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate she has made of the average cost to a registered social Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for landlord of maintaining a home in each age profile in Communities and Local Government what support her 2008. [274836] Department provides to local authorities to assist them in discharging responsibilities to provide, manage and Mr. Iain Wright: I refer the hon. Member to the maintain parks, recreation grounds and other open answer I gave him on 5 May 2009, Official Report, spaces; and if she will make a statement. [273548] column 142W. Mr. Iain Wright: Public parks and green spaces are Unitary Councils primarily funded through revenue support grant provided by Communities and Local Government. Central Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Government do not prescribe how much should be Communities and Local Government what her spent by each local authority on their open spaces; this Department’s latest estimate is of the cost of unitary is a matter for them to determine in line with local restructuring in the areas which have new unitary priorities. councils. [273259] Communities and Local Government also funds CABE Space, the Government adviser on public space issues, John Healey: When seeking parliamentary approval to provide support to all local authorities through advisory to the nine new unitary councils, we estimated transitional services, good practice guidance, campaigns and training. restructuring costs of around £138 million, with total They also help to tackle the retention and recruitment annual savings of at least £100 million. Our latest problems that the sector is experiencing and improve estimates, following a stocktake exercise we with the the skills mix at the local level; continue to build a support of independent financial experts have undertaken supportive evidence base for investment in parks and prior to 1 April 2009, are for the restructuring costs to open spaces; and engage communities in improving be around £135 million, slightly less than the original their local green spaces. estimate. 731W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 732W

Unitary Councils: Freedom of Information Children: Protection Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government which bodies will Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for hold the records of local authorities which have been Justice if he will take steps to encourage local replaced under unitary restructuring for Freedom of authorities to issue children protection proceedings. Information Act 2000 purposes. [273209] [273665] John Healey: The Local Government (Structural Changes)(Transfer of Functions, Property, Rights and Beverley Hughes I have been asked to reply. Liabilities) Regulations 2008 (SI 2008/2176) require that Local authorities have a clear statutory duty under where predecessor councils are succeeded by one unitary section 47 of the Children Act 1989 to investigate where council, property, rights and liabilities which would they have reasonable cause to suspect that a child is include records transfer to the successor council. Where suffering or likely to suffer significant harm. And where two new unitary councils have been formed in a former as a result of that investigation they conclude they county area, the regulations require that the records of should take action to safeguard and promote the child’s the predecessor district councils transfer to the relevant welfare by for example applying for a care order, they new unitary and those of the predecessor county council must take that action. It is for individual authorities to transfer to one or other of the new unitary councils as decide when to initiate care proceedings under section 31 agreed between them. The regulations also require that of Children Act 1989 when a child is at risk in their own where there are two successor councils, the one holding home. the records must make them available to the other. Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many child protection cases were heard by JUSTICE the family court in (a) 2005, (b) 2006, (c) 2007 and Ashwell Prison (d) 2008. [273676] Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he will publish the findings of the Prison Service Bridget Prentice: The following table shows the number investigation into the disturbance at HM Prison of care, supervision and emergency protection order Ashwell on 11 April 2009. [273535] applications made to the family courts in England and Wales during the specified years. Mr. Hanson: As I made clear to the House in my Number of (a) care applications (b) supervision applications and (c) emergency written ministerial statement on 20 April 2009, and in protection order applications in the England and Wales family courts, 2005-08 subsequent answers to parliamentary questions, I will Application type 2005 2006 2007 20081 make the findings of the investigation and our conclusions on it available to the House in due course. Care applications 13,498 13,421 13,717 12,089 Cabinet: Glasgow Supervision 897 938 1,069 624 applications Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Emergency 2,736 1,676 1,459 1,722 protection order Justice (1) how many (a) special advisers and (b) applications officials of his Department accompanied him to 1 Provisional Glasgow for the Cabinet meeting on 16 April 2009; Notes: [273957] 1. 2005-07 data cover all tiers of court, and are as published in the annual Ministry of Justice reports ‘Judicial and Court Statistics’. (2) what car journeys he undertook in attending the 2. 2008 data exclude applications made to the High Court (which typically Cabinet meeting in Glasgow on 16 April 2009; [273958] account for around 3 per cent. of all child protection applications) and should be treated as provisional. Final figures will be published in ‘Judicial and Court (3) how much expenditure was incurred by his Statistics 2008’ later in the year. Department in respect of the Cabinet meeting in 3. Figures relate to the number of children subject to each application. On this Glasgow on 16 April 2009; [273959] basis, an application relating to two children will be counted twice. 4. Figures for Family Proceedings Courts prior to April 2007 are likely to be (4) what expenditure on (a) travel, (b) an undercount. A new method of data collection was introduced in April 2007 accommodation and (c) food (i) he and (ii) officials in which has improved the coverage and completeness of data. Any comparison with figures prior to April 2007 may be affected by the improved data his Department incurred in connection with the recording. Cabinet meeting in Glasgow on 16 April 2009. [273960] Source: HM Courts Service case management systems Mr. Straw: I was not accompanied by officials or by special advisers when I attended the Cabinet meeting in An application will not necessarily result in a full Glasgow on 16 April 2009. court hearing in every case, as the application can be withdrawn or the proceedings otherwise discontinued I travelled by car between Ambleside, Cumbria and before this stage is reached. It should also be noted that Oxenholme station and between Glasgow Central station an application of one type can result in an order of a and the venue for the Cabinet meeting. different type being made by the court. £132 was incurred for my return travel by train from Oxenholme Station to Glasgow Central station. My transport by car to and from Oxenholme Station and Departmental ICT between Glasgow Central station and the Cabinet venue was provided by the Metropolitan police, the cost of John Thurso: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice which is a matter for them. what steps he has taken to reduce the level of carbon There was no departmental expenditure on dioxide emissions arising from the operation of ICT accommodation or food and no officials from the Ministry systems in his Department under the Greening of Justice attended the meeting. Government ICT Strategy. [273564] 733W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 734W

Maria Eagle: The Ministry of Justice is committed to These figures must be seen in the context of over reducing its carbon emissions in accordance with the 16 million votes cast at the local elections in England campaign initiated by the Department for Environment, and Wales in May 2008 in nearly 4,000 separate elections Food and Rural Activities and the Greening Government involving over 13,500 candidates. ICT Strategy. The MOJ recognises that reducing its The report is consistent with earlier findings that the ICT carbon emissions is not just about technology but scale and volume of allegations of fraud at recent also about embedding sustainability in its process and elections have been decreasing. behaviour as well. The MOJ has worked to implement the appropriate Extradition: Legal Aid ‘Areas for ICT Carbon Reduction’ in the Greening Government ICT Strategy improving the sustainability of its printing, the energy efficiency of its desktop PCs Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for and data centres. Justice what expenditure his Department has incurred The MOJ has built sustainable IT principles into its on the provision of legal aid for cases involving IT policy and consideration of sustainability forms part extradition to the United States in each of the last five of process of evaluation of changes to the IT estate. years. [274731] The MOJ is working with its suppliers to improve the energy efficiency of IT operations both in its outsourced Mr. Malik: Neither the Ministry of Justice nor the data centres and at its own sites. It has employed third Legal Services Commission records extradition cases party expertise to analyse the sustainability of IT operations centrally in terms of the country that is requesting managed by a sample of the MOJ’s key suppliers and extradition. The information requested could therefore advise on how best to realise improvements. This work be provided only at disproportionate cost. has already led to increased data centre energy efficiency, and work on the centralisation of data processing will Judiciary: Ethnic Groups further reduce server energy consumption without negative affect on the volume or efficiency of data processing Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice carried out. The convergence of formerly separate networks how many black and minority ethnic people were offers better sharing of IT resources for staff and the appointed to the judiciary in each of the last five years. reduction of the overall number of devices we need to [273691] deliver the same level of service. The MOJ has also used initiatives to realise the Mr. Straw: Following the question tabled in February positive impact that ICT can have on the overall carbon on appointments, we are in the process of cleansing our emissions of its operations. It continues to invest in data. This has yet to be completed, so I regret that I am video-conferencing and teleconferencing technology to unable to respond at this time. I will write with further reduce emissions. The imminent upgrade of desktop information in due course, and ensure copies of this PCs will offer not just improved power management to information are made available in the Libraries of both reduce energy consumption but also roaming profiles Houses. allowing any users to log on to any machine helping support MOJ estates’ goal of 80 per cent. desking and a reduction in the overall size of the MOJ HQ estate. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what proportion of applications to become a member MOJ is also working on staff awareness of green IT of the judiciary were from black and minority ethnic issues. Campaigns have been run encouraging the shut candidates in each of the last five years. [273692] down of electrical items outside of office hours, the reduction of printing and paper consumption and the better use of video-conferencing and teleconferencing Mr. Straw: We have not been able to provide all the to reduce travel. information in the time requested, but are working to provide it. I will write with further information in the Elections: Fraud near future, and ensure copies of this information are made available in the Libraries of both Houses. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many successful prosecutions there were for Legal Profession: Chinese Community offences of electoral fraud arising from elections held in 2008. [274248] Harry Cohen: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Wills: The report recently published by the Electoral Justice what criteria are applied to the selection of Commission and the Association of Chief Police Officers applicants to participate in the Lord Chancellor’s entitled “Allegations of electoral malpractice at the Training scheme for young Chinese Lawyers; and if he May 2008 elections in England and Wales” found that will consider the merits of increasing the number of the police had recorded 103 cases of electoral malpractice places available under the scheme each year. [273768] at those elections. 81 per cent. of the cases required no further action by the police. One case has led to a Mr. Wills: Applicants to the Lord Chancellor’s Training prosecution, which resulted in a conviction of one scheme for young Chinese Lawyers must: person on a charge of making a false application to vote be Chinese nationals aged between 25 and 40 on the application by proxy. Nine cases resulted in formal cautions which closing date; may lead to criminal records, with 12 cases under be graduates of law who have passed the national lawyers’ investigation or awaiting advice from the Crown Prosecution examination in China and have at least two years’ post-qualification Service. experience in a law firm in China; 735W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 736W

have excellent written and oral English demonstrated by an Life Imprisonment: Mentally Disturbed Offenders overall score of 6.5 or over in the International English Language Testing System test (IELTS), ideally with a score of 6.0 or over in every test; Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice have specialist experience in one or more areas of legal practice how many prisoners sentenced to whole life tariffs are of significance to China’s development as a market economy held in secure NHS premises. [273818] and have strong personal motivation and an ability to adapt to different environments. Mr. Hanson: Less than five1 prisoners sentenced to From past experience it has also been found desirable whole life tariffs are currently detained in secure hospitals. that the 15 successful lawyers: 1 We have withheld exact numbers because to provide the information at this level could identify individuals. represent a gender balance between males and females; represent a wide variety of Chinese regions; National Offender Management Service be working for Chinese law firms; be experienced in commercial areas of law; Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice have a strong interest in and perhaps some experience in how many staff (a) employed in and (b) seconded to international work; the Interventions and Substance Abuse Group of the be willing and keen to contribute to the development of the National Offender Management Service have Chinese Justice system upon their return; previously worked for (i) the Probation Service and (ii) have excellent communication skills; the Prison Service. [273536] be highly motivated to learn, have a positive attitude, and be an excellent team player; and Mr. Hanson: Of staff currently in post in the National be capable of resolving ethical dilemmas. Offender Management Service’s Interventions and Substance Misuse Group (ISMG): The Ministry of Justice has committed to fund the scheme until 2011. We will review the scheme in due (i) 15 have a national probation service background; course, using a set of criteria which is likely to focus on (ii) 125 have a HM Prison Service background; and value for money, impact, achievements, and fit with our (iii) Seven have previously worked in both HM Prison Service departmental strategic objectives. We will also need to and the national probation service. consider the public sector’s fiscal restraints at that time. Nine current ISMG staff are seconded from the I am sure you will appreciate therefore that I cannot national probation service. comment on the merits of increasing the number of places available until the review has been concluded. Prison Accommodation

Life Imprisonment Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice for how many hours per week on average Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice high security prisoners have been confined to their cells how many prisoners serving whole life tariffs are held (a) in the latest period for which figures are available in each Category A prison. [273817] and (b) over a similar period immediately before the introduction of core day standardisation. [273797] Mr. Hanson: The break-down for prisoners on whole life tariffs in high security prisons is as follows: Mr. Hanson: Prisoners in the High Security Estate are locked in their cells for an average of 109 hours a High security prison Number of prisoners week. Prior to the introduction of the Standard Core Day prisoners were locked in their cells for an average Belmarsh 0 of 107 hours a week. After the introduction of the Frankland 8 Standard Core Day across the Prison Service prisoners Full Sutton 5 in the High Security Estate spend an extra two hours a Long Lartin 1Less than 5 week, or 1 per cent. of their time, locked up. Manchester 0 The Prison Service has looked carefully at how it can Wakefield 11 make efficiencies in the operation of prisons to support Whitemoor 1Less than 5 the Department’s efficiency plans. The standardisation Woodhill 0 of the core day delivers efficiencies, improves consistency 1 We have withheld exact numbers because to provide the information of regime delivery across the affected establishments at this level could identify individuals. and helps to maximise the access prisoners have to activities when they are running without compromising Life Imprisonment: Females the running of safe, decent and secure establishments.

Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Prison Sentences how many female prisoners are serving life sentences with a whole life tariff. [273819] Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many (a) men and (b) women aged (i) under 18 Mr. Hanson: There is less than five1 female prisoners years, (ii) 18 to 20 years and (iii) 21 years and over were currently serving a life sentence with a whole life tariff. serving indeterminate sentences for public protection 1 We have withheld exact numbers because to provide the information on the latest date for which figures are available. at this level could identify individuals. [271975] 737W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 738W

Mr. Hanson: The following table gives the numbers of the primary care trust (PCT) to finalise arrangements prisoners serving indeterminate sentences for public for antiviral access and infection control management, protection on 24 April 2009. The table includes those and to adapt local community policies to a prison subject to imprisonment for public protection (IPP) and setting. young prisoners subject to detention for public protection At the outset of this swine flu outbreak governing (DPP). The table also includes the 104 offenders of this governors were reminded to review these plans and type who are located in a secure psychiatric hospital. ensure they are up to date and capable of being acted on Serving IPPs and DPPs on 24 April 2009 if the situation calls for it. This is to be done in consultation Age range (a) Men (b) Women Subtotals with local primary care trusts and in line with the current PSI. (i) Under 18 years 35 1Less than 5 36 (ii) 18 to 20 years 370 1Less than 5 372 A revised version of the Prison Service Instruction is (iii) 21 years and 4,696 142 4,838 currently in draft. It provides further advice on key over areas including infection control, UK pandemic phases, Total 5,246 detail on key issues to be covered in contingency plans 1 We have withheld exact numbers because to provide the information at this including supply lines and participation in local resilience level could identify individuals. fora, along with advice on human resources matters. These figures were drawn from the NOMS IPP database. The database is updated every other month, based on Prisons: Education data provided by establishments. As with any large scale recording system, the database is subject to possible Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice errors with data entry and processing. how much his Department spent on prisoner Changes introduced by the CJIA 2008 included a re-education in (a) 2006-07 and (b) 2007-08. [273840] minimum tariff of two years below which IPPs cannot be given, except where offenders have committed extremely Mr. Hanson: In terms of money spent on education serious crimes in the past. and training in prisons for those two years, £156 million was spent in financial year 2006-07 and £168 million These changes will ensure better use of the all the was spent in financial year 2007-08, funded from the sentences available to the courts. Department of Innovation Universities and Skills via In January 2008, a new streamlined process was provider contracts commissioned by the Learning and introduced for assessing and managing IPP offenders Skills Council. Spending on offender learning, through the implementation of offender management commissioned by the Learning Skills Council, now for IPPs. The new process will ensure that appropriate stands at over £175 million (2008-09 financial year), for sentence plans are drawn up and implemented for offenders, juvenile, young and adult offenders—almost a threefold without undermining public protection. increase since 2001. The Learning and Skills Council also spent a further Prison Sentences: Swine Flu £30 million in European Social Funding for the two calendar years 2006 and 2007, and established a £13.9 Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice million budget from EQUAL funding for the period (1) whether he has made an assessment of the potential December 2006 to March 2008 to meet additional provision effects of the outbreak of swine influenza on (a) levels for offenders both in custody and in the community. of sentencing to custody by magistrates courts and In addition training for prisoners is undertaken, mainly Crown courts and (b) the safe management of adult by Prison Service staff, whilst prisoners work or are prisons, young offender institutions and secure training engaged in various areas such as prison industries, centres; [274325] catering, physical education, land based activities, industrial (2) what assessment he has made of the effect of the cleaning and laundries. The central costs of the training outbreak of swine influenza on the provision of elements of these, mainly production functions, are not healthcare in (a) adult prisons, (b) young offender kept centrally. institutions and (c) secure training centres. [273824] Probation: Wales Mr. Straw: Contingency planning for coping with the effects of a flu pandemic on the justice system including Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice prisons and places of detention, has been underway for how many probation posts are planned for (a) Dyfed several years. Sentencing will continue to be a matter for Powys, (b) Gwent, (c) North Wales and (d) South judges taking account of individual circumstances and Wales probation areas in (i) 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11 and sentencing guidelines. (iii) 2011-12. [273755] Protecting the public and ensuring the smooth running of the justice system is paramount and every effort Mr. Hanson: It is not yet possible to predict final would be made to ensure those who pose a risk continue figures for 2009-10. As no final decisions have been to be appropriately dealt with. taken on budgets for subsequent years, it is also not In 2006, all prisons were instructed, through Prison possible to provide accurate staffing projections for Service Instruction PSI (29/2006), to develop contingencies 2010-11 and 2011-12. plans in the event of pandemic influenza. Prison senior Responsibility for resourcing levels ultimately lies clinical staff were to be involved at all stages of planning. with each probation board or trust as they are the The plans were to be signed off as fit for purpose by employers of probation staff. It is for them to take the area managers. The governor was required to establish action necessary at a local level to ensure they can links with the local health protection unit (HPU) and deliver the required service within available resources. 739W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 740W

DEFENCE is replicated on the ground by the Helmand Provincial Reconstruction Team which integrates the efforts of Afghanistan and Iraq: Peacekeeping Operations DFID, the FCO and the military Task Force Commander, with international partners, in a comprehensive approach Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for to security, reconstruction and development. Defence how many UK service personnel serving in Armed Forces: Coroners (a) Afghanistan and (b) Iraq are residents of (i) Northern Ireland and (ii) the Republic of Ireland. Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for [272893] Defence what the outcome of his Department’s Mr. Bob Ainsworth: Data on the residential location challenge was to the inquest verdict in the case of of armed forces personnel is not held centrally and Ronald Georg Maddison which the then Parliamentary could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Under-Secretary of State announced in the written ministerial statement of 21 December 2004, Official Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations Report, column 168WS; and if he will make a statement. [274726] Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Kevan Jones: The Judicial Review was scheduled for Defence how many service personnel from each of to take place on 13 February 2006 in the High Court. the armed forces are serving in Afghanistan. [273000] However before the hearing was due to commence, Counsel representing the Maddison family offered a Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The number of UK service personnel possible resolution of the issues to be addressed, which in Afghanistan fluctuates on a daily basis but there are the Ministry of Defence found acceptable. The presiding currently approximately 8,300 UK service personnel judges, set to hear the Judicial Review, endorsed the serving in Afghanistan. Due to the current deployment terms of the agreement. This therefore concluded matters. of 19 Light Brigade approximately 80 per cent. of these personnel are from the Army and approximately 10 per Armed Forces: Housing cent. each from the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force respectively. Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what recent assessment he has made of Afghanistan: Reconstruction the adequacy of provision of (a) service family accommodation and (b) service single living Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence accommodation for armed forces personnel in if he will bring forward plans to improve liaison Scotland; and if he will make a statement; [274595] between his Department and the Department for (2) how many and what percentage of (a) service International Development on reconstruction in family accommodation and (b) service single living Afghanistan. [273672] accommodation properties in (a) the UK and (b) Scotland there were in each grade in each of the last Mr. Hutton [holding answer 8 May 2009]: Ministers five years. [274593] and Officials from the Ministry of Defence, the Department of International Development (DFID), and the Foreign Mr. Kevan Jones: UK service family accommodation and Commonwealth Office (FCO) meet regularly to was at the following standard for condition (SfC) in discuss the UK’s policy in Afghanistan. This cooperation each of the last five years.

April 2004 April 2005 April 2006 April 2007 July 2008 Properties Percentage Properties Percentage Properties Percentage Properties Percentage Properties Percentage

S1fC 25,276 50 26,426 53 28,796 57 29,691 59 28,354 59 S2fC 22,215 44 20,774 41 18,950 38 17,918 36 17,414 36 S3fC 3,083 6 2,792 6 239 5 2,165 5 2,098 4 S4fC 146 ≤1 195 ≤1 159 ≤1 145 ≤1 109 1 Total 50,720 50,187 50,214 49,911 47,975

Figures for Scotland across the last five years are not disproportionate cost. However, as at March 2009, SFA held centrally and could be provided only at in Scotland was at the following SfC:

Properties Percentage

S1fC 3,120 97 S2fC 102 3 S3fC 5 ≤1

In the past two years, single living accommodation, scale of the accommodation, but excludes environmental in the UK and Scotland was at the following grade, and locational factors. which is an assessment of the physical condition and 741W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 742W

July 2007 March 2008 UK Scotland UK Scotland Bed-spaces Percentage Bed-spaces Percentage Bed-spaces Percentage Bed-spaces Percentage

Grade 1 35,388 26 2,553 32 34320 25 2,580 33 Grade 2 17,398 13 1,576 20 19,180 14 1,560 20 Grade 3 23,346 17 1,691 21 21,460 16 1,680 21 Grade 4 62,212 44 2,128 27 62,460 45 2,010 26 Total 138,344 7,948 137,420 7,830

Further information is not held centrally and could conducted in consultation with the committees and be provided only at disproportionate cost. other stakeholders and an initial symposium was held Due to a legacy of decades of underinvestment, in on 25 March 2009. Scotland and elsewhere, not all service accommodation Armed Forces: Resignations is of the high standard that service personnel and their families deserve. We are addressing this and in addition Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence to the significant investment in recent years, we plan to what the voluntary outflow rate from each (a) service spend over £3 billion in the next decade to improve and and (b) rank of the armed forces was in each of the upgrade accommodation worldwide. last three years. [274980]

Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Kevan Jones: The voluntary outflow rates of for Defence how much has been spent on upgrading officers and of other ranks from each service are published accommodation for serving personnel and their in tables 3-8 of Tri-Service Publication 05 (TSP05). (a) (b) families in the UK and Scotland since 2000. TSP05 is published monthly; the current March 2009 [274599] publication includes time series back to 1998-99 and can be found at: Mr. Kevan Jones: I will write to the right hon. and learned Member with the information requested because http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/ index.php?page=48&thiscontent=60&date=2009-04- it is not held centrally and will take more time to collate 20&pubType=l&PublishTime=09:30:00&from=home&tabOption=l and verify. Voluntary outflow rates for each rank have not been Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State compiled and could be provided only at disproportionate for Defence how many (a) single living cost. accommodation and (b) service family Copies of TSP 05 are also available from the Library accommodation properties in Scotland have been of the House. declared unfit for habitation. [274600] Armed Forces: Swine Flu Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many (a) single living accommodation Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and (b) service family accommodation properties in what preparations his Department is making to ensure the UK have been declared unfit for habitation. that sufficient military forces are available to participate in civil contingency operations in relation to [274777] the swine influenza outbreak. [275048] Mr. Kevan Jones: While all occupied properties are Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The UK’s preparations are led by considered to be of a habitable standard, properties can the Department of Health, involving all relevant be uninhabitable for various reasons, such as awaiting Government Departments and agencies including the demolition or undergoing major repair, modernisation MOD. There are currently no plans for military involvement or upgrade work. in civil contingency operations in relation to the swine The situation changes frequently and therefore detailed influenza outbreak. numbers are not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Armed Forces: Training

Armed Forces: Pensions Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many people were enrolled in an officer training Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for corps course at each university in each year since 1997. Defence whether he plans to review the functions of [274898] the war pension committees. [274688] Mr. Kevan Jones: The following table illustrates the Mr. Kevan Jones: A review of the war pensions numbers commencing training at University Officer committees is currently underway. The review is being Training Corps in each year since 1997.

1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Aberdeen 65 72 51 67 80 49 53 82 64 82 65 45 743W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 744W

1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Birmingham 78 66 69 103 75 46 87 82 78 100 98 64 Bristol 73 77 82 74 83 72 86 87 64 83 79 50 Cambridge 98 95 102 66 82 107 84 72 91 81 78 53 East Midlands 93 72 75 97 83 91 76 80 94 88 70 41 Edinburgh 92 67 50 51 82 82 63 91 71 85 100 68 Exeter 88 76 86 78 80 80 122 83 102 92 77 53 Glasgow584965626093736262786248 Leeds 74 71 60 66 94 97 114 115 82 110 87 72 Liverpool 83 79 73 87 85 83 98 91 89 88 76 49 London 161 156 152 193 201 181 183 141 173 162 200 154 Manchester 78 79 72 85 75 75 73 76 81 106 75 38 Northumbria 70 67 66 75 84 97 88 91 73 78 86 52 Oxford 84 98 81 80 78 105 102 110 131 117 101 94 Queen’s 95 61 67 79 63 62 50 38 44 80 46 43 (Northern Ireland) Sheffield 85 96 83 112 98 77 139 104 83 93 117 63 Southampton 81 60 63 110 107 103 113 105 93 117 86 45 Tayforth 76 62 52 115 100 89 125 98 100 113 80 73 Wales 86 85 106 93 98 93 101 119 104 114 98 62

Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr. Quentin Davies: Work is currently being undertaken what his most recent estimate is of the cost of the to determine the future waste management plans at Defence Training Review contract over the next five Faslane, the results of which will inform the design and financial years. [275050] development of a new capability.

Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The most recent estimate of the Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for cost of the Defence Training Review (DTR) contract Defence what (a) procedures and (b) protocols will over the next five financial years, after expected contract apply to the discharge of radioactive coolant from signature in 2010, is £1.8 billion. It should be noted that submarines at the new Astute jetty. [273006] the vast majority of this figure represents the operating costs that we carry today within the existing training Mr. Quentin Davies: The procedures and protocols establishment. for the discharge of radioactive coolant from submarines at the new Astute jetty will be similar to those in place Army: Manpower for current berths. Primary Effluent Tanks will be used for the discharge of radioactive liquid effluent, a process Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence that is regulated and inspected by both the Scottish what the (a) required, (b) actual and (c) fit for duty Environment Protection Agency and the Defence Nuclear strengths of each regiment of the (i) Royal Armoured Safety Regulator. Corps, (ii) Royal Corps of Signals, (iii) Royal Engineers and (iv) Royal Logistics Corps is. [275044] Defence: Employment

Mr. Bob Ainsworth: This information is not held Linda Gilroy: To ask the Secretary of State for centrally and could only be provided at disproportionate Defence how many people in (a) Devon and (b) cost. Cornwall are employed in the defence sector. [273590] Clyde Submarine Base Mr. Kevan Jones: The latest available figures for the numbers of MOD civilian and service personnel who Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for are directly employed at MOD establishments or bases Defence when he expects the Faslane primary effluent located in Devon, Cornwall and the unitary authority barge to return to service; and what plans he has for its of Plymouth are provided in the following table. replacement in the long-term. [273004] All MOD MOD civilian Mr. Quentin Davies: The primary effluent barge was service personnel personnel Total retired in February 2008 and will not be returned to South West 38,880 17,600 56,480 service. Of which: Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde is currently undertaking Plymouth 7,380 1,200 8,580 a future waste management options study to determine Devon 4,120 410 4,530 the long-term plans for radioactive waste management. Cornwall 3,650 630 4,280 Primary effluent tanks will continue to collect liquid waste in the interim. The Ministry of Defence does not produce estimates at County or Unitary Authority level for the number of Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for people employed in UK industry and commerce in Defence what plans he has for a new facility to handle companies that receive contracts directly from MOD or radioactive waste at Faslane. [273005] in the supply chain supporting such contracts. 745W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 746W

Linda Gilroy: To ask the Secretary of State for installations completed for the Defence Information Defence how many people in the South West of Infrastructure programme is. [274968] England work in the defence sector. [273591] Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Ministry of Defence intends Mr. Kevan Jones: The latest available estimate for to design, install and run 140,000 terminals on the those people employed directly in industry and commerce Defence Information Infrastructure system, supporting in the South West of England in those companies that some 300,000 users at more than 2,000 sites. As at 30 receive contracts directly from MOD is approximately April 2009, some 70,000 terminals had been installed. 37,000 full-time equivalent jobs. Defence: Procurement It is not possible to prepare estimates for indirect employment due to the quality of the underlying Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence administrative data, so this could only be provided at what the (a) original forecast in-service date at main disproportionate cost. gate and (b) actual in-service date of each post-main In addition a further 17,600 civilian and 38,880 service gate Category (i) A, (ii) B and (iii) C procurement personnel are directly employed at MOD establishments project was in each of the last two years. [275022] or bases located in the South West. Mr. Quentin Davies: The following table gives the Defence: Information and Communications Technology actual in service date for category A, B and C post main gate projects in each of the last two financial years for Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence which results have been published together with the what the (a) target and (b) actual number of terminal originally forecast in service date at main gate:

In service date forecast at main gate Actual in service date Category Project title

June 2006 April 2006 B General health and usage monitoring system October 2007 May 2006 C JACAMAR—Secure radio system December 2002 June 2006 A Sting Ray Life Extension and Capability Upgrade July 2004 July 2006 A Landing Ship Dock (Auxiliary) July 2006 September 2006 B Javelin Follow-On Buy October 2006 September 2006 C Chinook Coherence October 2005 October 2006 B TROJAN and TITAN March 2006 October 2006 C Thermal Sighting System for the Self Propelled High Velocity Missile Weapon System July 2002 January 2007 C Saturn for Lynx Mk8 March 2007 March 2007 B Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System March 2007 March 2007 B Royal Navy Joint Tactical Information Distribution System July 2006 March 2007 C Future fire control system December 2007 June 2007 C Allied Command Europe Rapid Reaction Corp (ARRC)—Command and Control Information System September 2007 July 2007 A PICASSO August 2008 September 2007 C Dismounted Counter Mine Capability November 2006 November 2007 B PANTHER Command and Liaison Vehicle (CLV) May 2008 January 2008 B Defence HF Communications Service January 2008 January 2008 B High Velocity Missile Procurement (Tranche 4) August 2006 February 2008 C Fire Control Battlefield Information Systems Application September 2005 February 2008 A Support Vehicle May 2008 March 2008 C Tomahawk Block IV Weapon System

Departmental Buildings The MOD’s annual accounts include property management costs, which are mostly maintenance but exclude those falling under PFI arrangements. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much his Department spent on building These figures are provided in the following table. maintenance in each of the last five years; and if he will make a statement. [274556] £ million

2003-04 1,393 Mr. Kevan Jones: The diverse defence estate includes 2004-05 1,509 office, technical and living accommodation. Building 2005-06 1,367 maintenance is covered by a number of contractual 2006-07 1,258 arrangements both in the UK and overseas, including a 2007-08 1,523 number of private finance initiatives (PFI). For these reasons, the cost of building maintenance as distinct from such things as the maintenance of runways and The final figures for 2008-09 are currently being other elements of the estate, is not held centrally and prepared and are subject to audit by the National Audit could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Office. 747W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 748W

Departmental Consultants European Fighter Aircraft

Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much his Department spent on external what his most recent assessment is of progress in the consultants for services delivered in 2008-09. [274977] ordering of Tranche 3 Eurofighter Typhoons. [274896]

Mr. Bob Ainsworth: This information is not yet verified Mr. Quentin Davies: Negotiations with partner nations but is intended for future publication and will be placed and industry are continuing on the Typhoon Tranche 3 in the Library of the House before the summer recess, contract and decisions will be taken once these negotiations as is our usual practice. are complete. Ex-servicemen: Military Decorations Departmental Correspondence Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make an estimate of the number of Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence British veterans of the Korean War who have not what procedure his Department follows for dealing received each medal for military service in that war for with complaints received (a) by e-mail, (b) by post, which they are eligible. [274356] (c) by telephone and (d) via his Department’s website. [274527] Mr. Kevan Jones: This information is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Mr. Kevan Jones: The MOD’s complaints handling policy is based on the Parliamentary and Health Service Iraq: Peacekeeping Operations Ombudsman’s publication ″Principles of Good Complaint Handling″ and covers all complaints irrespective of Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for how they are received. There are separate and published Defence pursuant to the answer of 24 April 2008, points of contact for complaints about specific activities, Official Report, column 927W, on Iraq: peacekeeping for example pensions or low flying, and our experience operations, what the established procedures for the is that complaints are most effectively handled at the gifting of equipment to Iraq are. [274639] initial point of contact. Our policy sets out how complaints should be handled and, should it be necessary, explains Mr. Hutton: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I how an internal review should be offered and conducted. gave on 30 March 2009, Official Report, column 888W, Finally, we offer independent internal reviews and will to the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth). explain to the complainant how they are able to take their complaint to the Parliamentary and Health Service Israel: Military Aid Ombudsman. Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much aid was given to Israel for military purposes Departmental Official Hospitality between 1997 and 2008. [273849]

Mr. Hutton: MOD gave no aid to Israel for military Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence purposes between 1997 and 2008. We do, however, offer how much his Department has spent on (a) conference places on defence education courses which are paid for services and (b) banqueting services in each of the last by Israel on an attendance basis. Our defence relationship five years. [274508] with Israel is in line with HMG’s policy in support of the Middle East Peace Process of having a balanced Mr. Kevan Jones: This information is not held centrally relationship with the Israelis and the Palestinians. and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Expenditure on conference and banqueting services Military Aid: Defence Equipment must be necessary, appropriate, cost effective and an admissible charge to public funds. Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what equipment his Department has Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence authorised the armed forces to gift to other nations in how much his Department spent on entertainment and each of the last five years. [273584] hospitality in the last two financial years. [275011] Mr. Hutton: Gifts valued above the MOD’s delegated Mr. Kevan Jones: The MOD spent £4.2 million on gifting authority (above £100,000 in 2004-05 and above entertainment in 2007-08. The information for 2008-09 £250,000 from August 2006 onwards) have been approved is intended for future publication in our annual report by Parliament through a departmental minute are set and accounts before the summer recess, as is our usual out as follows. practice. We also publish some details of such gifts in the note The aim of official entertainment is to support MOD on losses and special payments in our Annual Report objectives, facilitate wider public understanding of the and Accounts, copies of which have been placed in the armed forces, enhance professional contacts, further Library of the House and which are available on line in British security policy interests and meet defence diplomacy the MOD’s Freedom of Information Publication Scheme at: objectives. Official entertainment may be used to support http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/ management objectives or enhance esprit de corps. CorporatePublications/AnnualReports/ 749W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 750W

A fully comprehensive list of gifts could be provided Five sets of IT equipment. only at disproportionate cost. Shipping costs. Surplus assets are normally disposed of through sale £500,000 cash gift to the Government of Afghanistan to secure the best value for the taxpayer. Where surplus to allow them to equip an Afghan Territorial Force in assets are disposed of as gifts, this must produce a Helmand province. (Notified to the House of Commons positive benefit for the MOD or UK security interests. in a departmental minute of 30 October 2006). 2008-09 Non-lethal equipment to the Palestinian Presidential There have been no parliamentary approved gifts in Guard (notified to the House of Commons in a this year. departmental minute of 8 February 2007), comprising: 2007-08 Helmets. 49 critical Jaguar spares and a Challenger 2 tank Portable accommodation. Loader Drill Trainer to the Government of Oman. Field lighting. (Notified to the House of Commons in a departmental Communications equipment. minute of 24 April 2007). Body armour. 15 Up-armoured light protected vehicles (High Mobility Vehicles. Multi-purpose Wheeled Vehicles (HMMWVs) and a Infrastructure assets at Camp Smitty in Al Muthanna, support package to the Government of Afghanistan. and at Camp Driftwood in Basrah Province to the (Notified to the House of Commons in a departmental Government of Iraq (notified to the House of Commons minute of 10 July 2007). in a departmental minute of 21 June 2006), comprising: 25 field ambulances to the Government of Afghanistan. Accommodation. (Notified to the House of Commons in a departmental Ablutions. minute of 4 March 2008). Dining facilities. 2006-07 Various force protection defences (watchtowers etc.). Infrastructure construction projects and equipment Infrastructure assets at Camp Abu Naji in Maysan to the Government of Iraq (notified to the House of Province to the Government of Iraq (notified to the Commons in a departmental minute of 18 April 2006), House of Commons in a departmental minute of 28 June comprising: 2006), comprising: Iraq Police Service (IPS) Emergency Battalion HQ and Barracks, Accommodation. Al Muthanna. Ablutions. Department for Border Enforcement (DBE) Commando Dining facilities. Emergency Battalion Barracks, Basrah. Various force protection defences (watchtowers etc.). Collocated Department for Border Enforcement/Facilities Protection Services HQ precinct. 2005-06 90 Dskha 12.7 mm heavy machine guns (10 for Iraqi Army Military equipment and infrastructure to the Government Rapid Reaction Company and 80 for DBE) with ancillaries. of Iraq (notified to the House of Commons in a 6,300 9 mm pistols for IPS, with ancillaries. departmental minute of 11 January 2006), comprising: 85 PKC medium machine guns (50 for IPS and 35 for DBE) Tactical Support Unit (TSU) construction, Maysan. with ancillaries. Police Station construction, Al Amarah, Maysan. 12 Dragunov sniper rifles, with ancillaries. Department of Border Enforcement (DBE) Provincial HQ 20,500 helmets (13,000 for IPS and 7,500 for DBE). construction, Maysan. 14,500 pairs of boots (for IPS). DBE Provincial HQ construction, Al Muthanna. Up to 50 type 110 Land Rovers and a support package Iraqi Police Service (IPS) Academy extension construction, Al for the Government of Lebanon. (Notified to the House Muthanna. of Commons in a departmental minute of 9 October TSU expansion construction, Basrah. 2006). Rapid Reaction Company Barracks construction, Basrah. Non-lethal military equipment to the Government of Refurbishment of five police stations, Basrah. Nepal (notified to the House of Commons in a Warren site utilities and building refurbishment, Basrah. departmental minute of 12 February 2007), comprising: ‘Ring of Steel’ permanent vehicle check points, Basrah. Two Revolution wheelbarrows. Refurbishment of five police stations, Al Muthanna. One Cyclops wheelbarrow spares package. 415 IPS patrol cars. Seven explosive ordinance disposal disrupters and 35 boxes of 319 IPS 4x4 patrol cars. cartridges. 734 Motorola GM160 VHP radios with microphone and antenna One Mk7B spares package. (including delivery to Shaibah Logistics Base). One Mk7B Training package. Military equipment and infrastructure to the Government 10 bomb suits and helmets. of Iraq (notified to the House of Commons in a 80 de-mining vests and helmets. departmental minute of 12 October 2005), comprising: 10 metal detectors. Barracks for 10th Division Iraqi Army HQ near Az Zubayr. 20 Cable detectors. Barracks for 3/1/10 Battalion (on the same sight). 10 firing cables. Iraqi Army Central Issues Facility (storehouse) at Shaibah. 10 firing devices. 211 pick-up vehicles. One service support package. 12 water trucks. One training visit. 9 Flat-bed trucks. 751W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 752W

211 high-frequency radios. Military equipment and infrastructure to the Government 16 high frequency base station fixed installation kits. of Iraq (notified to the House of Commons in a Networked data/voice capability (Local Area Network). departmental minute of 15 December 2004), comprising: 475,182 Operational Ration Packs to the Government 450,000 rounds of AK47 blank ammunition for training purposes. of the United States of America following Hurricane 500,000 of PKM (light machine gun) blank ammunition for Katrina. (Notified to the House of Commons in a training purposes. departmental minute of 6 February 2006). 438 under slung grenade launchers (UGL) for AK 47s. Non-lethal military equipment to the Government of 18,400 UGL rounds. Nepal (notified to the House of Commons in a 36,800 UGL training rounds. departmental minute of 25 May 2005—replaced withdrawn 5666 9mm pistols. proposal originally notified on 20 January 2005), comprising: 3000 personal radio handsets. Two Revolution wheelbarrows. 50 operations room radios. Two Cyclops wheelbarrows. 200 vehicle radios. 12 Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) disrupters and 200 Non-lethal military equipment to the Government of boxes of cartridges. Sierra Leone, comprising a communications system and 4 Recoilless EOD disrupters and 100 boxes of cartridges. three batches of Troop Carrying Vehicles (Bedford 4 tonne 10 mini electronic exploders. equivalents). (Notified to the House of Commons in a departmental minute of 23 June 2004). Five metal detectors. Four EBEX wire detectors. 622.385 tonnes of 120mm Challenger 1 tank ammunition to the Government of Jordan. (Notified to the House of One spectrum analyser. Commons in a departmental minute of 12 October One set of IT equipment. 2004). 10 sets of digital photography equipment. Non-lethal military equipment to the Palestinian Two EOD vans. Authority, comprising Explosive Ordnance Disposal 2004-05 (EOD) protective clothing, EOD detection and disruption equipment, IT equipment and four 4x4 vehicles equipped Military equipment to the Government of Iraq (notified for EOD. (Notified to the House of Commons in a to the House of Commons in a departmental minute of departmental minute of 20 December 2004). 10 November 2004), comprising: Non-lethal military equipment to the Government of 3,200 AK47 assault rifles. Nepal (notified to the House of Commons in a 2 million rounds of 7.62 mm ammunition. departmental minute of 6 May 2004), comprising: 4,200 sets of body armour. Two Short Take off and Landing BN2T Islander aircraft. 2,500 helmets. 425 ICOM UHF radios and accessories. 1,000 sets of public order equipment including riot shields, 10 base stations and 50 repeater stations. helmets with visors, leather gloves, shin and knee protectors, flame retardant overalls and batons. Wheelbarrow MK8 Plus II explosive ordinance disposal unit. Military equipment and infrastructure to the Government Wheelbarrow Mk7 spares. of Iraq (notified to the House of Commons in a Bomb disposal equipment including 6 disposal suits, 1000 departmental minute of 2 December 2004), comprising: cartridges L2A1, 1000 midi cartridges, 6 electronic exploders and 4 x-ray machines. 3,300 AK 47s. Ordnance search equipment including, cable avoidance tools, 3,300,000 rounds of 7.62 ammunition. metal detectors, portable searchlights, infra red filters, search 20,858 sets of body armour. soda breads, endoscope search kits, rechargeable heavy duty combi drills and ultrasonic thickness gauges. 7,444 Kevlar helmets. 1,000 sets of public order equipment, including helmets, batons, Military equipment to the Government of Iraq (notified shields, knee and elbow guards etc. to the House of Commons in a departmental minute of 25 January 2005), comprising: 308 HF Radios. 79 refurbished armoured Penman Hotspur Land Rovers. 992 Binoculars. 2 luggage x-ray machines, 3 archway metal detectors, 27 hand-held 69 GPS. metal detectors and 15 under vehicle search mirrors. 42 GPS with radio. 774 medium machine guns (PKMs), 5 million rounds of 12 sets of urban operations equipment. ammunition for PKMs and 1150 light machine guns (RPKs). Iraq National Guard divisional maintenance facility for armoured personnel carriers. Navy: Drug Seizures 4 ranges. 4 provincial logistic support centres for the Iraqi Police Service Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for (IPS). Defence what drug seizures were made by Royal Navy 3 provincial HQs for the Department of Border Enforcement. vessels since 1997; where the seizures took place; what Buildings for specialist IPS facilities, such as a forensic lab and the value of each seizure was; and if he will make a a ballistics lab. statement. [271390] Medical stores. Refurbishment of 24 boats. Mr. Bob Ainsworth: I will write to the hon. Member. 753W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 754W

Radioactive Waste: Waste Management Somalia: Piracy

Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence on what date his Department published its Defence how many Royal Navy personnel of each rank report on Future Radioactive Waste Management are stationed in the Gulf of Aden. [272904] Capability, RWMF/URD/001; and what representations have been received on the report since Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The breakdown by rank of Royal that date. [272722] Navy personnel who are stationed or whose tasking may require them to be stationed in the Gulf of Aden is Mr. Quentin Davies: The Future Radioactive Waste provided in the following table. Management Capability—User Requirement Document Rank Number was published within the Department in August 2008 and was provided to the Scottish Environment Protection Captain (RN) 1 Agency in September 2008. Commander 3 No representations have been received on the report Lieutenant Commander 8 since it was issued. Lieutenant 15 Captain (RM) 1 Sub-Lieutenant 2 Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Warrant Officer 4 Defence how much liquid radioactive waste has been Chief Petty Officer 21 discharged into the sea loch at Faslane in each year since it first hosted Polaris nuclear submarines; and Colour Sergeant (RM) 1 whether he has received recent representations from the Petty Officer 33 Scottish Environmental Protection Agency on the Sergeant (RM) 1 matter. [272723] Leading Hand 43 Lance Corporal (RM) 3 Able Rate 79 Mr. Quentin Davies: Officials are currently in the Corporal (RM) 1 process of collating the information held by the Department; Marine (RM) 5 I will write to the hon. Member once this work is complete. Special Reconnaissance Regiment: Northern Ireland Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment he has made of the extent to which the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for recommendations in the report Assessment of Defence how many members of the Special Arrangements to Comply with Best Practicable Means Reconnaissance Regiment (a) have served in Northern for the Handling, Movement, Processing, Storage and Ireland in each of the last 12 months and (b) are Disposal of Radioactive Waste at HM Naval Base serving there. [272861] Clyde, Faslane have been complied with; and upon what data his assessment is based. [273541] Mr. Bob Ainsworth: I am withholding the information as its disclosure would, or would be likely, to prejudice Mr. Quentin Davies: An internal assessment of the the capability, effectiveness or security of the Special report was completed by officials at HMNB Clyde Forces. during March 2009. The majority of the recommendations arising from the report have now been implemented and Submarines we expect that outstanding issues will be addressed by the end of September 2009. Officials continue to work Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for with the various regulatory authorities to ensure they Defence what locations will be included in the Strategic are content with the work that is being undertaken. Environmental Assessment for the Submarine Dismantling Project; what timetable he has set for the Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence conduct of the assessment; and against what criteria what steps have been taken at HM Naval Base Clyde to the assessment will be made. [274640] ensure that requirements on waste prevention and minimisation have been incorporated into waste Mr. Quentin Davies: The Strategic Environmental generation procedures and training at the base. [273543] Assessment (SEA) for the Submarine Dismantling Project (SDP) will consider location options for both the submarine Mr. Quentin Davies: Waste generation is always dismantling facility and the interim storage of the resulting considered during the planning of any nuclear work, Intermediate-Level Waste (ILW). In both cases, the and efforts are made to minimise the rate of production SEA proposes to consider the following types of location: and the quantity of waste produced. Initial and refresher (i) Conduct activity at a Green-Field (not previously developed) training is provided to both submarine and base staff location; that specifically addresses the requirement to prevent (ii) Conduct activity at a Brown-Field (previously developed) and reduce radioactive waste. Waste disposals from location; and HM Naval Base Clyde continue to be well below the (iii) Conduct activity at an existing nuclear licensed/ authorised agreed disposal limits. location. 755W Written Answers12 MAY 2009 Written Answers 756W

It is the intention for the SEA report to be completed Warships: Manpower before spring 2010, following a period of public consultation. Assessment will be made against the criteria detailed Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence in EU Directive 2001/42/EC ’On the Assessment of the what the (a) required and (b) actual manning strength Effects of Certain Plans and Programmes on the for each (i) frigate and (ii) destroyer in the Royal Navy Environment’ and the ’Environmental Assessment of is. [275052] Plans and Programmes Regulations 2004 (SI 2004 No 1633)’. It should be noted that the latter document normally applies only to England but, in line with the Mr. Bob Ainsworth: I refer the hon. Member to the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (now Department answers I gave him on 13 November 2007, Official of Communities and Local Government) guidance, is Report, column 127W and on 4 February 2009, Official also applicable to those activities with a UK-wide remit. Report, column 1257W. 3MC Ministerial Corrections12 MAY 2009 Ministerial Corrections 4MC Ministerial Corrections Letter of correction from Kevin Brennan: The UK Statistics Authority has identified an error in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Tuesday 12 May 2009 Norwich, North (Dr. Gibson) on 18 November 2008. The original answer provided a table of the age- standardised mortality rates in England, by sex, for the period 1971 to 2005 for all cancers combined and for HEALTH each cancer where this information was readily available. The error occurred in the rates presented for prostate Cancer: Death cancer, which were incorrect for all the years shown, because of a clerical error. In the original table, prostate Dr. Gibson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health cancer is ranked 9th on the list for males. On the what assessment he has made of trends in mortality corrected table, it appears 5th on the list, as the figures rates of (a) common cancers and (b) rarer cancers; are presented in rank order for the first year of data and if he will make a statement. [232840] (1971). [Official Report, 18 November 2008, Vol. 483, c. 344-50W.] The corrected tables are as follows:

Table 1: Age-standardised mortality rates per 100,000 population by cancer site and sex, England, 1971-20051 Rate per 100,000 population Sex Site 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 1977 1978 1979 1980 1981

Male All cancers 284 286 286 288 284 289 285 286 287 285 284 Lung 107 109 109 110 107 108 108 108 106 104 101 Colorectal 34 34 33 34 33 34 33 32 32 31 31 Stomach 32 31 31 30 30 29 28 28 27 26 25 Prostate 21 21 21 21 21 22 22 21 22 22 22 Bladder1313131312131313121212 Pancreas 12 12 12 12 13 12 12 12 13 13 12 Leukaemia87888888888 Oesophagus 88888889899 Brain45454555555 Lip, mouth 44444444444 and pharynx Kidney44445555545 Non 44444445555 Hodgkin’s lymphoma Larynx33333333333 Myeloma33333333434 Hogkin’s 22222222111 disease Testis 11111111111 Melanoma 11111111112

Female All cancers 175 175 176 178 178 181 179 180 182 183 182 Breast 39 39 40 39 40 40 40 40 40 40 41 Colorectal 26 26 26 26 26 26 25 25 24 24 23 Lung 19 19 20 21 22 22 23 23 24 25 25 Stomach 15 15 14 14 13 13 12 13 12 12 11 Ovary 13 13 12 12 12 13 12 13 12 12 12 Cervix 88878877777 Pancreas77787887887 Uterus 54554445444 Leukaemia55455555555 Oesophagus 44444444444 Bladder33343434434 Brain33333333333 Non 33333333333 Hodgkin’s lymphoma Myeloma22222222322 5MC Ministerial Corrections12 MAY 2009 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

Table 1: Age-standardised mortality rates per 100,000 population by cancer site and sex, England, 1971-20051 Rate per 100,000 population Sex Site 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 1977 1978 1979 1980 1981

Kidney22222222222 Lip, mouth 22222222222 and pharynx Melanoma 11111211122 Hogkin’s 11111111111 disease Larynx00100111111

Rate per 100,000 population Sex Site 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993

Male All cancers 281 286 285 283 277 278 279 276 275 274 271 269 Lung 100 101 97 96 92 90 89 85 84 82 79 76 Colorectal 30 31 31 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 Stomach 24 25 23 22 22 21 21 20 19 18 18 16 Prostate 22 23 24 25 26 26 27 28 28 29 30 31 Bladder121212121211121112121212 Pancreas 11 12 12 12 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 10 Leukaemia888878777777 Oesophagus 9 10 9 10 10 11 11 11 12 12 12 12 Brain455555666566 Lip, mouth 444444444444 and pharynx Kidney556555566666 Non 566667777778 Hodgkin’s lymphoma Larynx 332333332333 Myeloma344444444444 Hogkin’s 111111111111 disease Testis 111001100000 Melanoma 222222222222

Female All cancers 182 183 185 185 184 185 186 186 183 182 180 180 Breast 41 41 41 41 42 41 41 41 40 40 39 39 Colorectal 22 23 22 22 21 21 21 21 20 20 20 19 Lung 26 26 28 27 28 28 29 29 29 29 29 29 Stomach 10 10 10999888777 Ovary 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 Cervix 666666665555 Pancreas878888888788 Uterus 444444444433 Leukaemia555555554444 Oesophagus 445555455555 Bladder333343344333 Brain334334444444 Non 334444444555 Hodgkin’s lymphoma Myeloma323333333333 Kidney222223333333 Lip, mouth 222222222221 and pharynx Melanoma 212222222222 7MC Ministerial Corrections12 MAY 2009 Ministerial Corrections 8MC

Rate per 100,000 population Sex Site 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993

Hogkin’s 111111111001 disease Larynx 101101100011

Rate per 100,000 population Sex Site 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005

Male All cancers 264 260 254 246 246 238 232 228 227 222 221 213 Lung 74 71 68 65 64 61 59 57 56 54 52 51 Colorectal 28 28 27 27 26 25 25 24 24 23 23 21 Stomach 16 15 15 14 13 13 12 11 11 10 9 9 Prostate 31 31 30 29 29 28 27 27 27 27 26 26 Bladder111111101010999998 Pancreas 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 Leukaemia777777777777 Oesophagus 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 Brain666666666666 Lip, mouth 444444444344 and pharynx Kidney666666666666 Non 788887778777 Hodgkin’s lymphoma Larynx 222222222222 Myeloma444444444444 Hogkin’s 111111000110 disease Testis 000000000000 Melanoma 232223333333

Female All cancers 178 176 173 170 168 165 163 160 159 156 157 153 Breast 38 37 35 34 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 28 Colorectal 19 18 18 17 17 16 15 15 15 14 14 13 Lung 30 29 29 28 29 29 28 28 28 29 28 29 Stomach 765655554444 Ovary 12 12 12 12 12 11 11 11 11 11 10 10 Cervix 444433333332 Pancreas777777777778 Uterus 333333333334 Leukaemia444445444444 Oesophagus 555555555555 Bladder433333333333 Brain444444444444 Non 555555555544 Hodgkin’s lymphoma Myeloma333333333322 Kidney333333333333 Lip, mouth 211221222121 and pharynx Melanoma 222222222222 Hogkin’s 000000000000 disease Larynx 110000000000 1 Cause of death for cancers was defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Eighth Revision (ICD-8) for 1971 to 1978, Ninth Revision (ICD-9) for 1979 to 2000 and Tenth Revision (ICD-10) for 2001 to 2005. See the box below for specific codes. 9MC Ministerial Corrections12 MAY 2009 Ministerial Corrections 10MC

ICD8 ICD9 ICD10 A validated unit of red cells is one that has been processed, tested, and labelled/validated as fit for issue to hospitals. All cancers 140-205 140-208 C00-C97 Participating hospitals have only been submitting data on units Bladder 188 188 C67 transfused for a full 12 months since 2005-06. Brain 191 191 C71 Figures stated for the percentage of units transfused and not transfused are based on data submitted by hospitals compared Breast 174 174 C50 against NHSBT figures for number of units issued. There is a small Cervix 180 180 C53 degree of duplication in submitted data due to the transfer of blood Colorectal 153-154 153-154 C18-21 between hospitals, meaning some figures exceed 100. Hogkin’s 201 201 C81 Source: disease NHS Blood and Transplant Kidney 189 189 C64-66, C68 Larynx 161 161 C32 Leukaemia 204-207 204-208 C91-C95 xC91.4 DUCHY OF LANCASTER Lip, mouth 140-149 140-149 C00-C14 and pharynx Lung 162 162 C33-C34 Redundancy: Hertfordshire Melanoma 172 172 C43 Myeloma 203 203 C88, C90 Non 200, 202 200, 202 C82- Mike Penning: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy Hodgkin’s C85,C91.4, of Lancaster (1) how many people have been made lymphoma C96 redundant in (a) Hemel Hempstead and (b) Oesophagus 150 150 C15 Hertfordshire in the last six months; [265801] Ovary 183 183 C56-C57 Pancreas 157 157 C25 (2) how many people identified as unemployed in Prostate 185 185 C61 (a) Hemel Hempstead and (b) Hertfordshire had been Stomach 151 151 C16 out of work for 12 months or more in each of the last [265804] Testis 186 186 C62 five months; Uterus 182 182 C54-C55 (3) how many people under the age of 21 years were identified as unemployed in (a) Hemel Hempstead and (b) Hertfordshire in each of the last five years; [265806]

Blood: Donation (4) how many people identifying themselves as disabled have been employed in (a) Hemel Hempstead and (b) Hertfordshire in each year since 1997. [265818] Mr. O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health [Official Report, 24 March 2009, Vol. 490, c. 284-85W.] what percentage of donated blood was used in each Letter of correction from Kevin Brennan: year since 1999. [256709] The UK Statistics Authority has identified an error [Official Report, 23 February 2009, Vol. 488, c. 200W.] in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning) to question 265806 Letter of correction from Dawn Primarolo: on 24 March 2009. An error has been identified in the written answer The original answer provided a table of the number given to the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) of persons claiming JSA under the age of 19, resident in on 23 February 2009. I am sorry that some of the the Hemel Hempstead constituency and Hertfordshire figures in the last two rows of the table were transposed. for the periods February 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009. This was provided as an alternative answer to the The correct figures are as follows: above question, as statistics of the count of claimants of persons claiming JSA were not available for persons 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 under the age of 21. The error occurred in the count of Whole blood 2,039 1,971 1,972 claimants for Hemel Hempstead and Hertfordshire, donations collected which were incorrect for all the years shown—they were (thousand) double the corrected figures, because of a clerical error. Red cells validated 1,939 1,876 1,838 (thousand) The correct table is as follows: Red cells expired 6 6 3 Table 1. Number of persons aged under 19 claiming Jobseeker’s Red cells issuable 1,933 1,870 1,835 Allowance resident in Hemel Hempstead and Hertfordshire Percentage red cells 94.8 94.9 95.2 As at February each issuable year Hemel Hempstead Hertfordshire Red cells issued 1,941 1,873 1,825 2005 134 949 (thousand) 2006 161 1,106 Number of hospitals 119 119 112 participating 2007 140 1,098 Percentage 100.4 99.8 97.1 2008 121 886 transfused 2009 189 1,594 Percentage not 2.6 2.2 2.2 Source: transfused Jobcentre Plus administrative system 11MC Ministerial Corrections12 MAY 2009 Ministerial Corrections 12MC

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT that it takes on average 18 months to two years to go through the design, planning and building of any home. Sustainable Development To achieve Code status in the most cost effective manner, homes need to be specifically designed for the Code. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Level The Code process has three main stages, registration, (a) 1, (b) 2, (c) 3, (d) 4, (e) 5 and (f) 6 sustainable design and post construction—there is a significant homes have been built in each quarter since the Code number of homes within the process—and these numbers for Sustainable Buildings was implemented; and how are increasing monthly, even in the current difficult many homes at each level she expects to be built in each economic climate. The following data are March 2009, of the next three years. [265270] with an August 2008 comparison. [Official Report, 29 April 2009, Vol. 491, c. 1383W.] Number of code certificates issued by end March 2009 Letter of correction from Iain Wright: and August 2008 Post construction (by code level) An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Registration Design 1 2345 6 Shapps) on 29 April 2009. March >190,000 1,231 0 1 58 4 2 0 The correct answer should have been. 2009 August 45,00024700020 0 Mr. Iain Wright: The Code for Sustainable Homes 2008 (the Code) became operational in April 2007. We estimate

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 12 May 2009

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 663 HEALTH—continued Choose and Book System ...... 670 NHS Dentistry...... 675 Elderly Care Beds...... 675 Out-of-Hours Primary Care...... 665 Influenza Pandemic ...... 667 Swine Influenza...... 673 Maternity/Paediatric Services (Greater Topical Questions ...... 676 Manchester)...... 663 Whistleblowers...... 671 Mental Health Services (Sutton)...... 663 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 12 May 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENTERPRISE AND REGULATORY COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— REFORM ...... 39WS continued EU Informal Competitiveness Council...... 39WS Housing and Planning Delivery Grant...... 45WS National Minimum Wage...... 40WS Park Home Site Licensing Provisions...... 43WS Right to Enfranchise Provisions...... 44WS CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 42WS NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 46WS Safeguarding - Progress in Delivering Probation Board for Northern Ireland (Business ContactPoint...... 42WS Plan 2009-10) ...... 46WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 43WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 46WS Gypsy and Traveller Caravan Count ...... 45WS Agency Targets and Business Plans...... 46WS PETITION

Tuesday 12 May 2009

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 5P Gaza ...... 5P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 12 May 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENTERPRISE AND REGULATORY COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— REFORM ...... 662W continued Fireworks: Noise...... 662W Council Tax ...... 713W Israel: EU External Trade ...... 662W Council Tax: Valuation ...... 713W Departmental Complaints ...... 713W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 699W Departmental Internet ...... 713W Children: Care Homes ...... 699W Departmental Procurement...... 714W Children: Databases...... 700W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 714W Children: Human Trafficking...... 701W Derelict Land: Gardens...... 714W Children In Care: Young Offenders...... 699W Domestic Violence ...... 714W Children: Protection...... 701W Economic Situation...... 715W Coln House Special School ...... 701W Energy Performance Certificates...... 715W Departmental Complaints ...... 702W EU Grants and Loans...... 715W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 702W Fire Services...... 716W Departmental Pay ...... 702W First Time Buyers ...... 716W Departmental Stationery...... 702W Freedom of Information ...... 716W Pre-school Education: Tamworth...... 702W Housing: Construction...... 717W Runaway Children...... 703W Housing: Low Incomes ...... 717W Supporting People Programme ...... 703W Housing: Standards ...... 719W CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 633W Judicial Review ...... 720W Churches: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 633W Local Government: Bank Services ...... 721W Local Government: Elections...... 721W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 712W Local Government: Equal Pay ...... 722W Community Development...... 712W Local Government Finance ...... 720W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— DUCHY OF LANCASTER ...... 690W continued Charities: Insolvency...... 690W Local Government: Greater Manchester...... 722W Death: Alcoholic Drinks and Drugs ...... 691W Local Government: Inspections ...... 722W Death: Nutrition ...... 693W Maps: EU Law...... 723W Departmental Buildings...... 693W Mobile Homes ...... 723W Departmental Stationery...... 694W National Secular Society...... 723W Non-profit Making Associations: Bexley ...... 695W Non-Domestic Rates...... 724W Pensioners: Merseyside ...... 695W Non-Domestic Rates: Empty Property...... 724W Sexuality: Statistics ...... 696W Planning...... 724W Skin Cancer ...... 696W Planning Permission ...... 724W Trading Funds: Accountancy...... 697W Planning Permission: Costs...... 725W Unemployment ...... 697W Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre...... 726W Voluntary Organisations: Finance...... 699W Recreation Spaces ...... 729W Social Rented Housing...... 730W Unitary Councils...... 730W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 649W Unitary Councils: Freedom of Information...... 731W Carbon Emissions: Housing...... 649W Departmental Air Conditioning...... 649W Fuel Poverty...... 649W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 634W Greenhouse Gas Emissions...... 656W Arts Council England: Grants ...... 634W Housing: Standards ...... 657W Casinos ...... 634W Low Carbon Buildings Programme...... 657W Departmental Contracts ...... 635W Peers’ Interests ...... 657W Departmental Dismissal...... 635W Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000 . 657W Departmental ICT ...... 635W Departmental Work Experience...... 636W English Heritage: Educational Visits...... 636W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Funding ...... 636W AFFAIRS...... 641W Gambling...... 637W Air Pollution: Torbay ...... 641W Heritage and Culture Sector Club: VisitBritain...... 637W Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control...... 641W Internet: English Language...... 638W Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 ...... 642W Licensing...... 638W Tourism: Rural Areas...... 643W Local Press...... 638W Trade Unions ...... 643W Sports Equity Alliance ...... 638W Water Charges...... 643W Sports: Training ...... 639W Swimming Pools...... 640W Trade Unions ...... 640W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 685W VisitBritain: Finance...... 640W Afghanistan ...... 685W British Overseas Territories...... 686W Departmental Rail Travel...... 686W DEFENCE...... 739W EU Institutions: Manpower ...... 687W Afghanistan and Iraq: Peacekeeping Operations... 739W European Union ...... 687W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 739W Hamas ...... 687W Afghanistan: Reconstruction ...... 739W Hostages: British Nationality...... 688W Armed Forces: Coroners ...... 740W India: Religious Freedom...... 688W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 740W Iran: Baha’i Faith...... 688W Armed Forces: Pensions...... 741W Iran: Nuclear Power...... 689W Armed Forces: Resignations...... 742W Iran: Sanctions...... 689W Armed Forces: Swine Flu...... 742W Pakistan: Politics and Government ...... 689W Armed Forces: Training ...... 742W Turks and Caicos Islands ...... 690W Army: Manpower ...... 743W Clyde Submarine Base ...... 743W Defence: Employment...... 744W HEALTH...... 704W Defence: Information and Communications Alcoholic Drinks: Children...... 708W Technology ...... 745W Allergy Services...... 707W Defence: Procurement...... 746W Cancer: Health Services ...... 708W Departmental Buildings...... 745W Cervarix Vaccine ...... 706W Departmental Consultants...... 747W Drugs: Children ...... 709W Departmental Correspondence ...... 747W GP Access...... 705W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 747W Health Services ...... 709W European Fighter Aircraft ...... 748W Hospital Acquired Infection ...... 707W Ex-servicemen: Military Decorations...... 748W Influenza: Vaccination ...... 709W Iraq: Peacekeeping Operations...... 748W Injuries: Children ...... 710W Israel: Military Aid ...... 748W Lyme Disease...... 710W Military Aid: Defence Equipment...... 748W Maternity Services ...... 705W Navy: Drug Seizures ...... 752W Methadone...... 710W Radioactive Waste: Waste Management...... 753W NHS Dentistry...... 706W Somalia: Piracy ...... 754W NHS Hospitals: Bexley ...... 707W Special Reconnaissance Regiment: Northern NHS: Theft ...... 711W Ireland ...... 754W Out-of-hours GP Care ...... 704W Submarines ...... 754W Prescription Costs...... 708W Warships: Manpower ...... 756W Radon Gas...... 711W Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH—continued LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 663W Social Enterprises...... 708W Departmental Furniture...... 663W Social Services...... 712W Specialist Hospitals...... 705W Swine Flu: Health Education ...... 712W Thalidomide...... 707W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 633W Tuberculosis...... 704W Departmental ICT ...... 633W

HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 663W Animal Experiments ...... 663W SOLICITOR-GENERAL...... 704W Asylum ...... 664W Council Tax: Second Homes...... 704W Asylum: Females...... 664W Departmental Buildings...... 665W Departmental Furniture...... 665W TRANSPORT ...... 644W Departmental Stationery...... 665W Departmental Air Conditioning...... 644W Detainees: Children...... 665W Departmental Air Travel ...... 644W Entry Clearances...... 666W Departmental Capital Expenditure ...... 644W Food ...... 666W Departmental Consultants...... 645W Fuels: Transport...... 666W Departmental ICT ...... 645W Gateway Group...... 666W Departmental Manpower...... 645W Identity Cards: Finance ...... 667W Departmental Rail Travel...... 645W Immigration...... 667W Departmental Training ...... 645W Immigration Controls ...... 667W Driving: Licensing...... 645W International Police Assistance Board...... 668W Government Car and Despatch Agency: Pay ...... 646W Metropolitan Police: Information and Motor Vehicles: Insurance ...... 646W Communications Technology...... 668W Railways: Franchises ...... 646W Police: Disclosure of Information ...... 668W Railways: Tickets ...... 647W Police: Procurement ...... 669W Rushenden Link Road ...... 647W Vetting: Scotland...... 669W Shipping: Pollution ...... 648W Vetting: Voluntary Work ...... 669W Trade Unions ...... 648W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 633W Hamas ...... 633W TREASURY ...... 674W Banks: Finance ...... 674W INNOVATION, UNIVERSITIES AND SKILLS..... 670W Banks: Ireland...... 675W Apprentices...... 670W Departmental Correspondence ...... 676W Departmental Buildings...... 671W Departmental Stationery...... 676W Departmental Furniture...... 671W Fiscal Policy...... 676W Departmental Manpower...... 671W Furnished Holiday Lettings Scheme ...... 676W Departmental Mobile Phones ...... 672W Industrial Health and Safety...... 676W Departmental Stationery...... 672W Interpal ...... 677W Learning and Skills Council...... 672W Landfill Tax ...... 677W Train to Gain Programme ...... 674W Members: Correspondence ...... 677W Natural Gas: Finance...... 677W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 660W State Retirement Pensions...... 678W Developing Countries: Loans...... 660W Tax Evasion ...... 678W Developing Countries: Water ...... 660W Natural Disasters: Monitoring...... 661W Overseas Aid...... 661W Sri Lanka: Overseas Aid ...... 662W WOMEN AND EQUALITY...... 659W Departmental Computers ...... 659W Equality: Regulation ...... 659W JUSTICE...... 731W Rape: Victim Support Schemes ...... 659W Ashwell Prison...... 731W Cabinet: Glasgow...... 731W Children: Protection...... 732W Departmental ICT ...... 732W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 678W Elections: Fraud...... 733W Departmental ICT ...... 678W Extradition: Legal Aid ...... 734W Incapacity Benefit ...... 679W Judiciary: Ethnic Groups ...... 734W Incapacity Benefit: Heart Diseases...... 679W Legal Profession: Chinese Community...... 734W Jobcentre Plus: Standards ...... 680W Life Imprisonment ...... 735W Jobcentre Plus: Vacancies...... 680W Life Imprisonment: Females ...... 735W New Deal Schemes...... 681W Life Imprisonment: Mentally Disturbed Pathways to Work ...... 681W Offenders ...... 736W Pension Credit...... 681W National Offender Management Service ...... 736W Social Security Benefits...... 682W Prison Accommodation ...... 736W Social Security Benefits: Disqualification...... 682W Prison Sentences ...... 736W Television: Licensing ...... 682W Prison Sentences: Swine Flu...... 737W Vocational Training...... 683W Prisons: Education...... 738W Welfare Tax Credits: Grandparents...... 683W Probation: Wales...... 738W Winter Fuel Payments...... 684W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Tuesday 12 May 2009

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 11MC HEALTH...... 3MC Sustainable Development...... 11MC Blood: Donation ...... 9MC Cancer: Death...... 3MC DUCHY OF LANCASTER ...... 10MC Redundancy: Hertfordshire...... 10MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 19 May 2009

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 12 May 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 663] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Health

Surface Water and Highway Drainage Charges (Exemption) [Col. 684] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—(Mr. Mike Hall)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Finance Bill [Col. 687] Considered in Committee

Sleep Apnoea (Road Deaths) [Col. 830] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall India [Col. 165WH] Consumer Rights [Col. 185WH] Police Crowd Control [Col. 200WH] Middle East [Col. 207WH] Private Rented Housing [Col. 216WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 39WS]

Petition [Col. 5P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 633W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 3MC]