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The Association for Diplomatic Studies and Training Foreign Affairs Oral History Project The Association for Diplomatic Studies and Training Foreign Affairs Oral History Project RUFUS C. PHILLIPS, III Interviewed by: Charles Stuart Kennedy Initial interview date: July 19, 1995 Copyright 1998 A ST TABLE OF CONTENTS Background Born in Ohio; raised in irginia Williams College U.S. Army, Korea - 1954 Saigon, ietnam, U.S. Army ,-ansdale mission. 1954-1955 North ietnam refugees National Security Program 0eoccupying iet 1inh areas Political parties Diem 2s. France French-U.S. relationship Ambassador Donald Heath T0I1-5oint 1ilitary 1ission Ci2ilian 2s. military morale iet 1inh southern network Kieu Cong Cung Phillip7s mission and duties Political indoctrination 1ontagnards South ietnam security problem Washington, DC - CIA - ietnam Affairs 1955 ietnam Ci2il 8uard training Ci2ic Action in South ietnam U.S. support of Diem Traditional ietnam go2ernment Saigon, ietnam 1959-1957 Ci2ic Action organization Duties and projects ientiane, -aos - CIA 1957-1959 1 Ci2ic Action program Pathet -ao agreement Project "Booster Shot" National Assembly Elections Economic Aid projects Souphanou2ong AID 2s. CIA methods North ietnamese -ao speakers in Pathet -ao units North ietnamese occupy part of Sam Neau pro2ince Pri2ate sector employment 1959-1990 ietnam - ,CO0DS. - Assistant Director - 0ural Affairs 1992-1995 Counter-insurgency program 1AC and 1AA8 Phu Yon pro2ince pacification plan AID mission Strategic Hamlet Program Pro2incial committees Diem Farming projects Personnel American Ad2isors groups Washington confusion 8eneral -andsdale NSC meeting - 199A 1r. President ,Kennedy. "We are not winning the war." -ooming disaster 1cNamara 8eneral Abrams Coup against Diem and Nhu Post-coup talks Ambassador -odge 1arginalization INTERVIEW ": Today is July 19, 1995. This is an interview with Rufus C. Phillips, III. We are interviewing in McLean, Virginia and this is being done on behalf of the Association for iplomatic Studies and I am Charles Stuart Kennedy. Can we start with when and where were you born- PHI--IPS: I was born in 1iddletown, Ohio on August 10, 1929. 2 ": Can you tell me a little bit about your family- PHI--IPS: Yes. 1y father came from Ohio. 1y grandfather was a co-founder of Armco Steel and my father had resisted going into Armco so he became a stockbroker in New York. In the depression he lost all of his money on the stock market so we mo2ed when I was about two, about 19A1, down to irginia to a place that was in my motherCs family, and had been since about 1815, called 8ra2el Hill, which is near AppomattoE. That is where I grew up. E2en though I was born in Ohio, I really grew up in rural irginia. ": Where did you go to school- PHI--IPS: I went to Yale. Two of my uncles had gone to Yale. First I went to a prep school in irginia because the schools werenCt 2ery good in Charlotte County, and that was Woodberry Forest. I entered Yale in the fall of 1947, graduated in 1951. ": What sort of courses were you ta.ing at /ale- PHI--IPS: I took American history and psychology. ": I was at Williams ta.ing essentially Civil War history at just about that same time. While you were at /ale these were e1citing times. The war was just over, the 2N was getting into place and the Marshall Plan, etc., were you pic.ing up any ideas about...- PHI--IPS: Well, I think half of our class were 2eterans and I think we were all influenced 2ery, 2ery strongly by World War II and the growing Cold War. And, of course, in the summer of 1950, the North Koreans in2aded the South. I remember a group of us talking about how we felt about this as if we ought to do something. Of course, we were in school and wanted to finish. In the spring of 1950 a number of us were contacted by a CIA recruiter. CIA was recruiting people because there was a feeling that maybe the balloon was going to go up in Europe and we would be back in a replay of World War II. The general Fuestion was, "would we be willing to jump behind enemy linesG" The answer, I think, for most of us was, "yes." A group of my class and 2ery close friends went directly into paramilitary training in the Agency. I did not. 1y father persuaded me to try law school, which I did for a half a year and got bored. In the meantime, a friend of mine had gone through paramilitary training and had actually gone o2er to Korea and subseFuently was lost o2er 1anchuria. His name was 5ack Downey. ": Jac. Downey4s name came up yesterday in an interview I was doing with Chas 5reeman who said he was in law school with him when he came bac. after 19 years. PHI--IPS: I was a fraternity brother of 5ack. I was, if not his closest friend, one of his closest friends. When that happened I just felt that I should get out of law school. I took 3 up an offer of Agency recruitment and went into paramilitary training myself in the summer of 1952. I was supposed to go to Europe, but there was a big training operation there of emigres and the whole training base was blown, so I had no particular assignment. I decided to go into the US Army, 2olunteer, go through OCS. The Agency had an arrangement whereby they said I could be picked up again, detailed back to the Agency as a military officer, although there was no guarantee. I went through basic training at Indiantown 8ap, and then through OCS in the summer of 195A. I was assigned to Korea and went there in 1954. It was from Korea that I got picked up and reassigned to Ed -ansdaleCs operation in ietnam in the American 1ilitary Assistance Ad2isory 8roup ,1AA8.. ": I ta.e it you weren4t in Korea very long. PHI--IPS: I was in Korea for three or four months. ": At that time the war was still on... PHI--IPS: No, the war was o2er. ": /ou said you were assigned to Ed Lansdale4s operation. Could you e1plain who he was and what you did- PHI--IPS: He had been sent to ietnam. When he was in the Philippines acting as an ad2isor to 1agsaysay, he had been asked to go o2er and take a look at ietnam. Of course, all of this is in his autobiography. He went around with the French and looked at the guerrilla situation there. When the 8ene2a Conference took place in 1954, he was called back to Washington and asked if he would be willing to go to ietnam. So he did as Chief of what was called the Saigon 1ilitary 1ission. The Agency had two local stations. One station was a normal station inside the embassy, and the other was a special group in the 1ilitary Assistance Ad2isory 8roup ,1AA8.. 8eneral OCDaniel was commander of 1AA8. He had just been assigned out there. -ansdale had reFuested some help and the Agency scoured the Far East for anybody who was in uniform. Some reser2ists were put back in uniform. He got a whole group of people there, none of whom were particularly suited for what he wanted them for, eEcept for the then 1ajor -ucien Conein, who had been in the OSS, had been in ietnam, had both a paramilitary background and ietnam eEperience. The rest of us, by and large, were people who had had some paramilitary training, which wasnCt really what he needed at that point because there wasnCt going to be a war. He put some of us into an entirely different role. I was assigned to begin to work with a ietnamese Army psychological routine unit, which was a combination psy-war company and troop information unit. That is what I began to do. 5ust about e2erything I did out there was an o2ert rather than co2ert acti2ity. ": /ou must have been sitting down and reading the boo. trying to .eep one chapter ahead of the boo.- 4 PHI--IPS: Well, I remember when he told me that he wanted me to work with the ietnamese psychological warfare unit, I said, "I donCt know anything about psychological warfare." He reached into his bookcase and threw me this book by Paul -inebarger, which was THE book written on psychological warfare after World War II and said, "Here, read this." ": 7efore we move on, how did you see Lansdale4s operation and how did it fit into the mission there- PHI--IPS: He had a 2ery broad charter. It was literally, "Ed, do what you can to sa2e South ietnam." In my opinion, he was a real political genius in terms of conceptualizing what might pull South ietnam together. It is hard now, I think, to realize what South ietnam was like then. The French had just lost the war and were completely discouraged. The South ietnamese had been eEcluded from the negotiations. Diem had just been appointed by Emperor Bao Dai as Prime 1inister. He had come to Saigon and found that he didnCt e2en control his own palace guard who belonged to the Binh Huyen who were a gangster sect in Saigon. They had actually bought control of the police force from Bao Dai. So you had the Binh Huyen who were riding around in uniforms patrolling the streets of Saigon, who were the police, but who also controlled all of the gambling, 2ice and the opium trade. The army was commanded by a 8eneral Hinh who held the rank of brigadier general in the French Air Force. He was ietnamese, but 2ery susceptible to French influence.
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