Thursday Volume 564 20 June 2013 No. 21

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 20 June 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1033 20 JUNE 2013 1034

Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): While Government House of Commons money is, of course, important, will the Minister join me in celebrating the amazing fundraising work of our Thursday 20 June 2013 museums, including the Submarine museum in Gosport, which has raised more than £6.5 million through heritage funding and lots of fundraising in order to restore The House met at half-past Nine o’clock HMS Alliance?

Mr Vaizey: I am delighted to endorse what my hon. PRAYERS Friend says. There is a huge amount of philanthropy outside London and we have made it far easier to give [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] to the arts. We have invested through the Catalyst Fund in endowments and fundraising capacity. BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS 16. [160620] Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): The artefacts in the science museums, including locomotives CONTINGENCIES FUND ACCOUNT 2012-13 in the National Railway museum, are expensive to Ordered, maintain and that museum is concerned it will not have That there be laid before this House an Account of the enough money for conservation, preservation, research Contingencies Fund, 2012-13, showing: and dissemination of information about its collections. (1) A Statement of Financial Position; Will the Minister address specifically that point in his (2) A Statement of Cash Flows; and evidence to the Culture, Media and Sport Committee? (3) Notes to the Accounts; together with the Certificate and Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon.— Mr Vaizey: I am sure I will specifically address that (Greg Clark) point, because I am sure the Committee will ask me about it. The Science Museum Group has aired a lot of its concerns, and we will certainly address them.

Oral Answers to Questions Entertainment Industry (Low-paid/Unpaid Jobs)

2. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): What discussions CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT she has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on trends in the number of low paid and unpaid jobs in the entertainment industry. The Secretary of State for Culture Olympics, Media [160604] and Sport was asked— The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, National Museums (2010 Spending Review) Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): The national minimum wage underpins wage levels for those at work 1. Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): and applies equally in the creative sector as elsewhere. What assessment she has made of the effect of the 2010 The Government support industry in its efforts to provide spending review on national museums outside London. employment opportunities for young people in the [160603] entertainment industry through initiatives such as the creative employment programme, the charity Creative The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Access, and the forthcoming launch of UK Music’s Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): The 2010 spending skills academy. review protected free admission to the permanent collections of our national museums by limiting cuts in resource Kerry McCarthy: I thank the Minister for that response, funding to 15% in real terms. Resource grant funding and I particularly welcome what he said yesterday about for national museums will reduce by only 5% in 2015-16, paid internships in the creative industries. It is still the and they will be given flexibility to manage their budgets case, however, that many professional freelancers are independently. expected to work for nothing or for very low pay. Sometimes, everyone involved in a production is being Andrew Gwynne: With the Science Museum Group’s paid except for the musicians and actors who are fronting projected deficit to increase from the current £2 million it up. What will the Minister do about that? to £4 million or even £6 million, depending on the outcome of the spending review, what confidence does Mr Vaizey: The exploitation of interns is unacceptable, the Minister have in the future viability of that group, and as I said, the music industry is working hard. In and in it maintaining the historically important collections particular, UK Music takes a strong lead on the issue at Manchester’s Liverpool Road station site, home of and is setting up the UK music skills academy. The the Museum of Science and Industry? charity Creative Access, with the BPI, will give work experience to 300 individuals who will be paid. I pay Mr Vaizey: Since the Science Museum Group took tribute to the hon. Lady who continues to campaign on over the running of the Manchester Museum of Science this matter and many other issues in the music industry. and Industry, visitor numbers have risen by 30%, so the answer is there; the group is running MOSI incredibly Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Does my hon. effectively, and will continue to run its three or four Friend consider that the question seriously underestimates outposts outside London effectively. the value of extras and walk-on parts in the theatre and 1035 Oral Answers20 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 1036 the palace of varieties? One needs walk-on parts to more homes and businesses will get access to superfast swell a progress, start a scene or two—to be deferential, broadband by the end of the Parliament. Furthermore, or glad to be of use. Is not one of the problems with too the rural community broadband fund is already further many theatre troupes that everyone wants to play the supporting rural communities, having made its first role of Hamlet, which is just not possible? award to Rothbury in Northumberland. My hon. Friend will be aware that many local authorities with large Mr Speaker: I hope that was not autobiographical in rural communities in areas such as Lancashire, Cheshire any way. and Cambridgeshire are going further with investment. I know that he will be doing all he can to encourage his Mr Vaizey: I concur with my hon. Friend that not local authority to do likewise. everyone can be Hamlet. Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): The Financial Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does Times reported last week that the National Audit Office the Minister realise that there is such a pool of talent out was to deliver a very critical report on this exercise, there, including people with high, graduate qualifications? arguing that it failed to deliver a proper bidding process, Surely we could use those people as a resource in our after only BT bid, saying it lacked competition and schools, for example, or leading community groups and describing it as so on. We must think of new ways and channels to use “a train crash waiting to happen”. these young people to give them a start and an income. Why did Ministers forget the importance of competition in this exercise? Mr Vaizey: The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point, so I hope that he will support the Government, Maria Miller: The right hon. Gentleman will also who want to allow people to teach in schools if they know that the NAO has said that we have some of the have the ability to inspire our young people, rather than best and most transparent processes for evaluating the shut them out artificially by forcing them to take a work going on in this area, so I would encourage him to teaching degree. read the full report. Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Good progress is Surely it cannot be right that musicians and entertainers being made in Gloucestershire on broadband, but does are about the only group of industrial workers still the Secretary of State agree that it is important to work expected to work for nothing in the 21st century. Will the with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Minister guarantee that no Government or Government- Affairs in promoting local small businesses in places sponsored event will now ever allow musicians to go unpaid? such as Stroud, Dursley and Nailsworth? Mr Vaizey: If the hon. Gentleman wants to give me Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We some examples, I will certainly look into them, but I must ensure that when we have access to superfast would not expect the Government to start from that broadband in local areas, businesses understand its point of view. value, and that is why we have always said that this is not only about investing in the roll-out of this infrastructure, Broadband (Rural Areas) but about ensuring that businesses understand how it can help them. 3. Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): What progress she has made on delivering broadband to Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Last week, rural areas. [160605] I attended the launch of Digital Teesdale. Will the Secretary of State join me in congratulating Labour The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Durham county council and the voluntary group Barnard Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): Twenty-six local Castle Vision, which are the partners that have delivered broadband contracts have now been signed under our it, and will she say why she is signing contracts for rural broadband programme, representing over 70% of delivery in 2016, when her target is for delivery in 2015? funding. Derbyshire supplier bids are expected in July, with installation commencing in 2014, and the first Maria Miller: I thank the hon. Lady for raising such cabinets are expected to be rolled out in advance of the an important project as the one in Durham. It is such Tour de France cycle race, which is scheduled to visit projects that can make a real difference, filling in the England in July 2014. gaps of the national programme. On the delivery of the programmes, we are pushing hard to get roll-out as Andrew Bingham: May I stress how vital faster broadband quickly as possible, and she will of course know that a is for the vitality and viability of the rural economy? I considerable number of local authorities have already often refer to it as the fourth utility. Faster internet opened their first boxes. That progress will continue access will be crucial to rural areas if we are to not only apace. As I said earlier, 70% of the funding allocations retain our businesses, but attract new ones. Will the have already been signed off. Secretary of State reassure my local businesses that the Government remain committed to faster broadband rolled out to rural areas such as the High Peak? Broadband

Maria Miller: I can say absolutely yes, which is why 4. Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) we have got a £1.2 billion infrastructure programme (Con): What progress she has made on rolling out high already under way, meaning that more than 10 million speed broadband across the UK. [160606] 1037 Oral Answers20 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 1038

The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport of pounds in reserves. Does the Minister think that the (Maria Miller): Two thirds of premises in the UK now borough council’s approach is the right one to achieve have superfast broadband available and 100,000 more an increase in participation rates and honour the Olympic homes and businesses are getting coverage every week. legacy? Average speeds increased by 69% last year. Hugh Robertson: The hon. Lady needs to be careful Mrs Gillan: I do not think that this is going fast with her figures. If she is arguing that the participation enough, and that is not good enough. Will my right rates have fallen, that is only for the winter. I was told hon. Friend join me in congratulating the New Economics that rugby league, which is big in her part of the world, Foundation, which has published a report this week had a week in which 96% of all its fixtures were cancelled. showing how the country could get much better value That explains the drop-off in participation. [Interruption.] for the billions that are about to be spent on HS2 by Well yes; because when there is snow on the ground you diverting some of those billions into superfast broadband? can’t play rugby league. I would have thought that as Does she agree with Sir Charles Dunstone, the chairman the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. and learned of Talk Talk, who also says that HS2 money would be Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) better spent by investing in high-speed broadband, and could have probably worked that out. The fact is that will she please stand up for this with her colleagues in participation rates are above the national average in the Cabinet? part of the world the hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) represents. I encourage local authorities Maria Miller: My right hon. Friend clearly has many to make use of both the Olympic effect and the many things to say on high-speed rail, but I will leave that for sports fixtures coming to her part of the world this year another Minister. I can tell her that 100,000 more to drive up rates. homes and businesses every week are getting access to superfast broadband. We are leading the way in Europe Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): At best, the active people on investment in broadband, and we are in the top three figure for West Lancashire has flatlined, and participation of EU members states on coverage, take-up, usage and rates in the north-west have gone down. Overall, the choice. country has seen a reduction of 200,000. It is less than a year since the Olympic games and what have we got? Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): The Some 68% of school sports organisers tell us that fewer Government backed North Yorkshire early on and we children are doing sport and that they are spending less are about to deliver on having 90% homes with superfast time doing it. While the rest of us looked forward to an broadband by early next year. We need a little bit more Olympic legacy, the Government were wrecking school money to get to 95%. Will the Secretary of State meet sports partnerships. Now they are blaming the weather me to discuss how much we need? for adult figures going down. Rather than riding on the back of fluctuations in the climate, will the Minister get Maria Miller: I am always happy for hon. Friends to to the Dispatch Box and tell us what he is going to do to meet the Minister responsible, and I am sure he will deliver a sustainable Olympic legacy? make that a priority. [Laughter.] In all seriousness, my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) is right: we want even more coverage in the Hugh Robertson: The first thing is that the hon. country. I would perhaps ask him to look in detail at Gentleman has got his figures wrong. The second is that how the rollout of 4G will help his community, which, anybody with an iota of common sense would accept after all, will leave the country with 98% coverage in its that if there is snow on the ground rugby league cannot access to superfast facilities. be played, and that if there is ice on the road people are unlikely take their bicycles out. In the period since 2005 when we won the bid, up to the moment when, across Sport (West Lancashire) two Governments, we delivered the games, London was the first host city to deliver a sustained increase—of 1.4 6. Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): What steps million—in participation. I pay tribute to the policy she is taking to increase participation in sport in West devised by James Purnell and carried through by the Lancashire. [160608] right hon. Members for Leigh (Andy Burnham) and for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) when they were Secretaries of The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media State. We should celebrate the fact that this country has and Sport (Hugh Robertson): The latest participation achieved what no other country in the history of the figures show that 37% of people in West Lancashire are Olympic games has ever achieved. Ranting and carping playing sport once a week, which is above the national is pretty stupid. average. In addition, Lancashire is hosting both an Ashes test and the rugby league world cup this year, Tourism which I am sure will maintain enthusiasm for sport in the county. 7. Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): What Rosie Cooper: Participation rates in the north-west assessment she has made of tourism spend in the UK. have fallen and Conservative-run West Lancashire borough [160609] council has closed Skelmersdale sports centre with no replacement in sight, provided unplayable football pitches 11. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): What due to inadequate drainage, and has made deep cuts in assessment she has made of tourism spend in the UK. leisure service provision while sitting on tens of millions [160614] 1039 Oral Answers20 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 1040

The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport Maria Miller: Through the work we do on the GREAT (Maria Miller): In the 12 months to April 2013, tourism campaign, we bring together Ministers from many different spend by international visitors in the UK was up 13% to Departments to ensure a co-ordinated approach to how a record £19.9 billion. This result highlights the importance we market Britain abroad. The hon. Lady’s part of of tourism in this country, which contributes £115 billion England has a strong story to tell when it comes to on average to the UK economy each year. marketing Britain, which is something I hope she would work with me on. Damian Hinds: That is very encouraging, but looking forward a decade, what projection has my right hon. Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): It is excellent Friend made of demand for passenger arrivals capacity news that visitor numbers and visitor spend rose last and beds? Is she confident that the industry can meet year to record levels, but my right hon. Friend will also that demand to maximise the export earnings opportunity? be aware that the UK still slipped by one place, from seventh to eighth, in the list of top 10 destinations. Can she say what is being done to attract more visitors to the Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is right that we should UK, particularly from China, many of whom are still always keep these sorts of things under close review, being deterred by the cost and difficulty of obtaining which is exactly what we do. He will be aware that Sir visas? Howard Davies is undertaking an independent review of airport capacity and how we can better use existing Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to capacity.He is due to report in 2015. As for accommodation, say that we always need to be actively marketing Britain the figures for the UK overall show that we have a abroad. That is where our GREAT campaign, with one-third capacity available in hotel accommodation £37 million already invested, comes into its own. It is a across the country. There are particular issues in London, campaign that this country can be proud of. As for which is why I very much welcome this week’s visas, we have made significant improvements to the announcement of £700 million of investment in luxury situation that we inherited. We have now seen an increase hotel accommodation at Nine Elms, which we should of, I believe, around 30% in visas from that country. applaud the Mayor for securing. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): The tourism economy Stephen Mosley: I recently had the pleasure of attending in Wales is worth £5 billion a year and employs 8% of the launch of Chester Civil War Tours, a new small the population, including many in my constituency. company showing people the sights of the siege of This week the Welsh Government announced a new Chester in the civil war, including the battlefields and target to increase that figure by 10%, including by also the pubs. What role does my right hon. Friend increasing inward tourists from Ireland and the United think heritage and culture have in promoting tourism in States in particular. Does the Secretary of State welcome our towns and cities? that and will she commit to meet and work with the Welsh Government to promote Wales, as well as England and the UK? Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight the importance of culture in supporting the Maria Miller: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for tourism industry. That is why I was so pleased that the his question. We work closely with the Welsh Government Treasury was able to understand the arguments we put through VisitBritain. This is a shared objective. VisitBritain forward and that we have secured such a strong deal for has a clear target of increasing international tourism by the culture sector in this country. 33% by 2015, and that will mean some 200,000 extra jobs in this country. Tourism is an important sector, and Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) we have some excellent support plans in place. (Lab): The situation facing the tourism industry in the north-east is unfortunately less positive. We have seen a Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): My constituency is particularly reduction of 60,000 in the last year. What action will the dependent on tourism. What discussions has the Secretary Secretary of State take to ensure that the north-east is of State had with the Treasury about the capacity for not left behind? reducing VAT in line with some of the countries on the continent? That might help the sector to grow, and would be particularly helpful to the tourism business in Maria Miller: The hon. Lady is right to say that we Somerset. want every corner of the country to have a strong tourism industry. That is why our “Holidays at Home Maria Miller: I understand the point that my hon. are GREAT” campaign is the biggest ever domestic Friend is making, but there would clearly be a significant tourism campaign aimed at exactly what she is looking cost associated with any such change to VAT. I prefer to for, which is to boost tourism throughout the UK. invest positively in our country as a place to visit. At the moment, the Treasury is not convinced that there is a Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): Few city correlation between a cut in VAT and any benefit in regions have seen as much growth in the visitor economy terms of figures. as Merseyside over recent years. This has been underpinned by the work that the local authorities have done in the Arts/Creative Industries boroughs. What conversations has the Secretary of State had with Communities and Local Government Ministers 8. Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): What assessment about ensuring that the spending review does not put she has made of the contribution of the arts and that investment at risk? creative industries to the economy. [160611] 1041 Oral Answers20 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 1042

The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media (Maria Miller): The Centre for Economics and Business and Sport (Hugh Robertson): I meet Scottish Ministers Research estimates that arts and culture had a turnover regularly to discuss a range of sports policy issues. of £12.4 billion and a gross value added of £5.9 billion Chief among those are the Glasgow Commonwealth in 2011. The creative industries contribute £36.3 billion games in 2014 and the Youth Olympic games bid for in gross value added, accounting for almost 3% of gross 2018, both of which include swimming competitions. value added in the UK in 2009. Michael Connarty: I commend the Government in Mr Bradshaw: Copyright theft costs our writers, artists England for making it compulsory at key stages 1 and and musicians billions of pounds a year. Three years 2 to teach children to swim. However, that entitlement ago, this House legislated on action to tackle that. does not exist in Scotland. There has been a call from When is the Secretary of State going to show that she is the Amateur Swimming Association not only to train not in the pocket of Google and the other internet swimmers for the Commonwealth and Olympic games service providers by doing something to enforce the will but for better swimming safety. It wants a national of the House and enforce the law? entitlement to swimming teaching. In 2011, six children died by accidental drowning in Scotland and 47 in the Maria Miller: The right hon. Gentleman will know, UK; the figure for adults in the UK in that year was given that he had my job in the previous Government, 407. Surely it is a human right for people to learn to that the detail of that legislation requires a great deal of swim so that they do not drown if they fall into the working through. That is a huge priority for this water. Government and I can assure him that we are working closely to ensure that copyright support is put in place Hugh Robertson: I do not know about a basic human as soon as possible. right; it is a matter of common sense and safety. There is no doubt that there is a straightforward correlation Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): Does between young people learning to swim and curbing the Secretary of State agree that creative business incubators deaths by drowning. I would encourage anybody to ensure such as the workshop that is opening in Tontine street that every single one of our young children is able to in Folkestone this month, along with the Government’s swim. seed enterprise investment scheme, will give a real boost to start-up businesses in the creative sector? UK City of Culture Status Maria Miller: Absolutely.The Government’s investment 10. Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): What in culture and the arts will ensure that those start-up assessment her Department has made of the potential firms have the necessary stimulus to enable them to benefits to a city of achieving UK city of culture status. thrive. [160613] Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): A key element of any strategy for the arts and the creative industries The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, must include support for all regions of the country. In Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): The potential these challenging economic circumstances, the Government benefits of becoming the UK city of culture will be should be working with local authorities to make the increased investment in cultural activities, a great deal case for culture and to explain its social and economic of media coverage and a huge increase in visitor numbers. benefits. Will the Secretary of State tell us what she is doing to help councils to support the arts and the Jim McGovern: I am sure the Minister will be aware creative industries in their local communities? of early-day motion 156, tabled in my name, which supports Dundee’s bid to be UK city of culture in 2017. Maria Miller: I am not doing what the hon. Gentleman I realise that it would be difficult for him to say that he is doing in supporting a council such as Newcastle, supports one city, but is he aware that not one single which wanted to cut its arts budget by 100%. I hope, SNP Member has signed that early-day motion? Is that given his question, that he now realises that that was a because they would prefer Dundee not to be part of the big mistake. I am glad that the right hon. and learned UK in 2017? Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) intervened and overruled the decision that he had made. Mr Speaker: I think we will give that one a miss, I could give him many examples of the work that we are because the Minister has no responsibility for the policies doing to support the regions in this way, and I draw his of the Scottish National party. [Interruption.] The hon. attention in particular to our comments yesterday on Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) the Arts Council, which is investing £174.5 million this is chuntering from a sedentary position that he has year in national portfolio organisations outside London. signed it, but I am not concerned with who has or has It is of course the Arts Council that has the role of not signed it; I am concerned with the matter of ministerial supporting regional culture and arts, and I think it is responsibility. The hon. Member for Dundee West (Jim doing a good job. McGovern) has made his point; it is on the record, so we will move on. Swimming Cultural Relations (Australia) 9. Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): What recent discussions she has had with her 12. Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): What her counterpart in the Scottish Government on the policy is on the repatriation of indigenous Australian development of swimming in the UK. [160612] human remains from UK cultural institutions. [160615] 1043 Oral Answers20 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 1044

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Tourism Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): The Government continue to endorse the joint declaration signed by the 15. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): What steps Governments of the UK and Australia in 2000, which she is taking to promote domestic tourism. [160619] states that human remains in UK collections that come from Australia should be returned wherever possible. The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport Decisions on individual claims are a matter for museum (Maria Miller): Working with VisitEngland, the trustees or the governing authorities of the institutions Government are investing £60 million between 2011 involved. and 2015 to promote domestic tourism, which I believe is a key driver for economic growth. Andrew Rosindell: I thank the Minister for his reply, but he will of course understand the importance not Andrew Stephenson: The Hoseasons group, based in only to the Australian people but to the Aboriginal Earby in my constituency, helps millions of holidaymakers community in particular of returning these human remains to choose self-catering accommodation or short breaks based in UK institutions. What will Her Majesty’s in tens of thousands of properties across the UK every Government do this year to ensure that the process of year. What is my right hon. Friend doing to work with returning those remains takes place as quickly as possible? companies such as Hoseasons in boosting domestic tourism? Mr Vaizey: I met the high commissioner a couple of years ago to discuss this issue, and it is certainly the case Maria Miller: Companies such as the one my hon. that the Natural History museum, for example, has Friend has identified are working actively with us on already agreed the return of 138 sets of remains to the the campaigns that we run and are often partners Torres Strait islands. I was pleased that the museum was investing cash in these campaigns as well. With 104 million able to host a Torres Strait islander to work with it on overnight trips in England made by British residents, scientific and museum skills. I will certainly continue to their work is successful—and that success is clear to see. keep an open door to the high commissioner, should he wish to raise the issue with me again. Draft Communications Data Bill (Media Ownership)

Mr Speaker: I call Mr David Morris. Not here. 17. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): Whether the draft Communications Data Bill will include provisions on media ownership. [160621]

Science Museum Group The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller): Lord Justice Leveson’s report made a number of recommendations on plurality and media 14. Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): ownership. This summer, the Government will explain how What assessment she has made of the potential effect they plan to seek views on the issue and implement on the Science Museum Group of further budget Lord Justice Leveson’s recommendations. The reductions. [160618] Communications Data Bill is being led by the Home Office, and will not include provisions on media ownership The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, because media plurality does not form part of Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): The Department communications data policy. receives evidence from sponsored bodies as part of the spending review. The Science Museum Group has projected Katy Clark: Does the Secretary of State agree that an operating deficit from 2014 and it is assessing a ownership of newspapers and other media is too range of options to address this. As I said earlier, the concentrated in the hands of too few, and that we need national museums will see a resource grant funding a cap on ownership in the different sectors of the reduction of only 5% in 2015-16 and a great deal of new media? freedoms. Maria Miller: As I have said, Lord Justice Leveson dealt with that issue in his report—albeit not in a detailed Mr Leech: I congratulate the Minister and the Secretary manner—and we have agreed that some issues need to of State on securing a great deal from the Treasury to be considered further, in particular the lack of clarity in secure the future of museums in Manchester, Bradford regard to how plurality should be measured and what and York. Does the Minister agree with me that, rather constitutes a sufficient level of plurality. I hope that the than consider charging an entry fee, the Science Museum hon. Lady will join me in seeking answers to questions Group should be looking at other ways of generating of that kind in the coming months. additional revenue from its visitors, not least as 5 million people have visited the four museums in the last 12 months? Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that any media ownership Mr Vaizey: Yes I do. It is this Government’s policy to regime must strike the right balance between allowing maintain free admission to our national museums’ plurality and allowing growth in the industry? permanent collections, but museums can, of course, raise revenue in other ways. People who visit them using Maria Miller: Absolutely. We do not want companies the free entry spend money while they are there. We to become unwilling to invest in the United Kingdom have also, of course, made great strides in helping to for fear of running into an unnecessary cap on their increase philanthropy. expansion. 1045 Oral Answers20 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 1046

Topical Questions We have already agreed on how to deal with the issue raised by the right hon. and learned Lady. We will seek views on it in the summer. Lord Justice Leveson himself T1. [160622] Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) said that he was not able to devote enough time to (Con): If she will make a statement on her considering media plurality matters in detail, and I departmental responsibilities. think that we need to do so now. I think that if we are to provide the sort of broad policy framework that we The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport need, we should seek views on those matters rather than (Maria Miller): What a week it has been for British engaging in further political discussion. sport! Yesterday England romped home in the cricket match against South Africa, Andy Murray won at T3. [160624] John Pugh (Southport) (LD): What Queen’s Club, and Hampshire’s own—indeed, Basingstoke’s assessment have the Government made of the impact own—Justin Rose became the first Englishman to win of TV advertising on online gambling? What is the the United States Open since 1970. I am sure that the cumulative effect on the nation of a surfeit of Ray whole House will join me in wishing our cricketers good Winstone? luck in the weekend’s Champions Trophy final and in this summer’s Ashes. I wish Andy Murray good luck at The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media Wimbledon, and I wish all the British golfers—whether and Sport (Hugh Robertson): I am not sure we directly they are from Hampshire or not—good luck in next know the answer to that, but I will find out and write to month’s Open. my hon. Friend.

Mr Speaker: I might just add that Greg Rusedski, a T2. [160623] Mrs Linda Riordan (Halifax) (Lab/Co-op): former US Open finalist, and other coaches came to Will the Minister inform the House on when a decision New Palace Yard yesterday to help to teach state school will be made on the future location of the Arts Council children how to play tennis. collection, and if northern towns like Halifax will be considered as a home for the collection? Mike Freer: May I turn my right hon. Friend to the issue of equalities, which is also part of her portfolio? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Can she tell me what progress has been made in the Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): I had a meeting removal of the spousal veto from the gender recognition with the hon. Lady and a delegation some time ago, and certification process? she put a very compelling case for Halifax. We will continue discussions with the Arts Council about the Maria Miller: I pay tribute to all the work that my future location of the Arts Council collection. Should hon. Friend has done in this regard. As he will know, we start to make progress, I will keep the hon. Lady the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill is currently being informed. debated in the other place. We are continuing to discuss the issue that he has raised with transgender groups, but T4. [160626] Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I gently remind him that it is actually an issue for the It is the Britten centenary, and the Aldeburgh festival Ministry of Justice. Perhaps he could raise it with my has been another rip-roaring success. Will my right right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor. hon. Friend join me in celebrating arts outside the metropolis, including the fantastic performances of “Grimes on the Beach” that we have greatly enjoyed in Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): Aldeburgh in the last week? May I take up the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark)? Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I I hope the Secretary of State agrees that, despite our had the privilege of attending the Aldeburgh festival a political differences and the occasional blip, and despite week and a half ago. It is an amazing event, celebrating the fact that we are by no means out of the woods yet, also the life of one of Britain’s greatest artists, Benjamin we worked well together on the basis of trust and good Britten. faith, and worked well with the Liberal Democrats, in trying to sort out the question of press complaints following the Leveson report. However, as she has just T7. [160631] Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/ said, we have yet to deal with the important issue of Co-op): Does the Secretary of State agree with me that monopoly media ownership, which prevents the market the BBC should be open and accountable, and does she from operating by preventing new entrants to it, as well share my concern that the director of diversity will give as being bad for democracy. me any details I want about ethnicity but will not give me any answer about education—about how many May I ask the Secretary of State to do what the privately educated people work in the BBC and how Government did before, namely set up and lead cross-party many state-school people work in the BBC? Many talks on the question of media ownership? We—and, I people suspect it is stuffed full of people from private am sure, the Liberal Democrats—would be very willing schools. Is that right? to work with the Government to deal with that aspect of the Leveson inquiry, which is important and which Maria Miller: I can understand the hon. Gentleman’s has not yet been tackled. desire for transparency and accountability from all public bodies, and that is something I would join him in Maria Miller: I observed no blips in our working supporting. Issues to do with personnel are very much together; I thought that it went very well indeed. matters for the BBC, however. 1047 Oral Answers20 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 1048

T5. [160629] Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) endorse what the hon. Gentleman says. I do hope the (Con): When News International was allowed to buy BBC will support the next UK capital of culture, as it The Times newspaper, the condition was set that the supported Derry/Londonderry. editor could not be changed without the explicit approval of the non-executive directors. In the event Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): What support that such a convention was broken, what would the is the Department giving to the Tour de France next Secretary of State’s powers of intervention be? year in the Yorkshire stages and the stage from my Cambridge constituency down to London? Maria Miller: My right hon. Friend will know that John Witherow has been appointed as acting editor of The Times. Appointing a new editor of The Times is a Hugh Robertson: I think, in the nicest possible way, matter for the independent national directors and that the hon. Gentleman may wish he had not asked me shareholders. There would be an opportunity to intervene that question. The Government have provided a to enforce the requirement for separate publications to considerable amount of underwriting. They have be maintained; that is really where my powers come into underwritten the whole event and provided the balance play. to make up a budget of £21 million. Unfortunately, Cambridge has yet to contribute at all, and that is one Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): of the issues we will address in the weeks ahead. The international festival for business is a national event, which next year will take place in Liverpool in Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Newcastle United football June and July. A quarter of a million visitors are expected. club is also a national asset. Does the Minister share my It is supported by the Prime Minister, and the Department utter bewilderment and that of tens of thousands of for Business, Innovation and Skills is providing significant Newcastle United supporters at the arrival of Joe Kinnear financial resource. What support will DCMS provide to on Tyneside? ensure that the cultural offer that supports the conference and the other events is significant and promotes all that the top arts and creative industries have to provide? Hugh Robertson: One of the things for which I am eternally grateful is that my job’s remit does not extend to the appointment of managers or sorting out the Mr Vaizey: The hon. Lady raised this point in yesterday’s weekly round of scraps on a Saturday afternoon. I Opposition day debate. She also extolled the many think I will leave that to the hon. Gentleman, if that is cultural virtues of Liverpool, and I heartily endorse her all right. comments. I am sorry that I did not answer her question then. As I understand it, the Arts Council is talking to Liverpool about the cultural support it can give around Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): May I congratulate the international festival, and I will talk to the Arts the Secretary of State on at long last ensuring that all 21 Council about its plans, and write to the hon. Lady. flags of the British overseas territories and Crown dependencies were flown from Parliament square last T6. [160630] David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): week for the Trooping of the Colour? However, will she The England football team is a valuable national asset, explain to the House why, for the state opening of yet of the millions of pounds raised, over 50% goes Parliament, there were 21 empty flagpoles with no to the professional game, not the impoverished grass Union flags flying for the arrival of Her Majesty the roots; I speak as a director of Warrington Town football Queen? club, an example of the impoverished grass roots. Does the Minister intend to follow the Select Committee Maria Miller: This is something of great importance, recommendation and make it Government policy to and we will look into it and write to my hon. Friend make a switch in regard to that funding? with an answer. Hugh Robertson: The Government can clearly direct funding only when they provide that funding, which Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): A full they do through the whole sport plans and the football three months ago, this House debated a royal charter on foundations. However, the Football Association is a the independent self-regulation of the press. It was signatory to the new code we set up in 2010 at the last supposed to go to the Privy Council. It did not. Meanwhile, review of the list, whereby it is pledged to give 30% of certain recalcitrant elements of the press put their own its UK broadcast income to grass roots sport. royal charter in. Can the Secretary of State please explain to the nation what on earth is going on, and Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I am sure the Minister when she expects the Privy Council to consider the will agree that the advice from Derry/Londonderry to royal charter that was debated democratically in this the shortlisted cities for the second UK city of culture House? would be that inclusion, integrity and imagination are key to any successful bid in a given year. Will he Maria Miller: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that encourage the BBC to be as well engaged with the the Government are working to take forward Lord second city of culture as it has been with the first? Justice Leveson’s recommendations in light of the cross- party agreements. A process is very much under way to Mr Vaizey: I did not get the chance during the earlier consider the “press boss” charter, while making sure exchange to congratulate Dundee, as well as Hull, Leicester that the Government’s charter will be subject to full and Swansea bay, on making the shortlist, and I thoroughly consideration at the appropriate time. 1049 Oral Answers20 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 1050

WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): A total of 81% of women feel that female sportspeople are much better role models than celebrities. What is my right hon. Friend The Minister for Women and Equalities was asked— doing to ensure that female sport is broadcast more widely so that those role models can get the exposure Sport (Girls) they deserve?

1. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) Hugh Robertson: Perhaps I should turn up more (LD): What steps she is taking to maintain existing regularly to this section of questions; I am being asked levels of girls’ participation in sport. [160632] more questions than I was during the sports section. My hon. Friend is absolutely right and a key part of the The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media Secretary of State’s initiative was high-quality advice and Sport (Hugh Robertson): In a guest appearance—figures from female broadcasters about how better to package released last week show that 6.785 million women played female sport to make it more attractive. I am delighted sport once a week, an increase of more than half a to say that I have noticed since 2012 that there is much million since we won the bid in 2005. Through Sport more concentration on it. It is a key part of UK Sport’s England, the Government have awarded £1.7 million to plans for the Rio Olympic and Paralympic cycle and we the Women’s Sport and Fitness Foundation to help will do everything we can to ensure that those fantastic sports understand which groups of women are most role models are appropriately profiled. likely to take up sport, and where sport should focus effort to best advantage. Women’s participation in sport Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): While the is one of the key priorities of my right hon. Friend the Leveson inquiry was perfectly justified in view of the Minister for Women and Equalities. scandalous behaviour of some of the press, is the Secretary of State aware that there is a good deal of concern not Simon Hughes: Having visited the very good girls’ from the usual quarters but from the regional press, secondary schools and mixed secondary schools in my who were not involved in the scandals, from the New constituency, it seems that the crucial time to encourage Statesman— young women to continue with sport and physical activity is the year leading up to 16, when they might leave Mr Speaker: Order. I am always loth to interrupt the school or think of other things. What are the Government hon. Gentleman, but at this stage we are talking about doing to make sure that at that stage, they are sold the girls’ participation in sport. benefits of staying fit? Mr Winnick: I thought it was open questions. Hugh Robertson: My right hon. Friend is absolutely correct: the single biggest issue affecting gender-based participation in British sport in the last 20 years has Mr Speaker: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will been the post-school drop-out, which is most severe find a way of getting his thoughts across on the matter amongst teenage girls. The Government have sought to in the course of the day. address that in the recent round of whole sport plans by concentrating on those in the 14 to 25 age group; by Female Entrepreneurs setting up 500 new satellite clubs, which will help to transition girls out of school and into sports clubs; and through the Sport England College Sport Makers, specialists 2. Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) in further education colleges who will help specifically (Lab): What steps she is taking to increase the number with that drop-off. of female entrepreneurs. [160633]

Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women A total of 36% of the medals won by Team GB were and Equalities (Jo Swinson): We commissioned the Women’s won by women, but women’s sport gets just 0.5% of Business Council to investigate how we can maximise sports sponsorship. What action is the Minister taking women’s contribution to economic growth as they have to ensure that this unacceptable situation is adequately a vital role to play. In response to the council’s recent tackled? excellent report, the Government will publish an action plan this autumn. It will highlight how we will improve Hugh Robertson: The hon. Lady is absolutely right to web-based support for entrepreneurs and work with the draw attention to the success of the many women who British Bankers Association to improve women’s awareness competed for Team GB last year. We tried to put in of the financial support available to women entrepreneurs. place a new sports marketing bureau, headed by Sir Keith Mills, responsible for drawing up the sponsorship Catherine McKinnell: I thank the Minister for that for London 2012, but I am afraid that the sports en answer. The Prince’s Trust is doing sterling work to masse did not want to sign up to that and wished to support young entrepreneurs in the north-east, such as continue to negotiate sponsorship agreements on their Emma Reilly in my constituency who set up a web-based own. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for design business with its support. It is worrying, however, Culture, Media and Sport hosted the summit, bringing that the Government’s new enterprise allowance is reaching together people from the worlds of broadcasting and only 30% of women. What are the Government going sport, and we are doing everything we can to address to do to ensure that that help reaches women to help the crucial issue the hon. Lady raises. more female entrepreneurs come into the market? 1051 Oral Answers20 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 1052

Jo Swinson: First, the hon. Lady is right to highlight Women’s Forum report that was published yesterday, the excellent work done by the Prince’s Trust and I am which picks up on many of these issues and offers some delighted that it has been helping entrepreneurs in her practical ways of improving the current situation? constituency. It is important that we ensure that the schemes available to support growing businesses are Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): During the financial available to women as well as men and are marketed in a statement the Chancellor said that his Budget “confronts” way that attracts women as well as men to apply for our problems “head on”. However, a Treasury team of them. There are some positive points, such as the start-up five men and no women produced a Budget that did not loans fund of more than £24 million that has already mention women in business once. With such poor gender been approved. More than 40% has already gone to diversity at the heart of Government, are we missing an women, but the Government recognise that this is an opportunity to support female entrepreneurship and issue where we can and will do more. We are considering women in senior positions in business? that in our response to the Women’s Business Council report. Maria Miller: I have to gently disagree with the hon. Gentleman. He will see that at the heart of what the Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): Government are doing is ensuring that every person in Next week I am taking a group of A-level maths students this country can achieve their potential. The changes in to visit British Airways Engineering, including a large the tax regime will support women, as will the increases number of female mathematicians. What is the Minister in access to child care that we have already put in place. doing to broaden girls’ aspirations and career choices? Actions very much speak loudly on this subject. Violence Against Women Jo Swinson: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. It is important that women and girls are encouraged to take subjects that can lead them into a lot of different 4. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): What careers, whether in entrepreneurship or through science, assessment she has made of the cumulative effect of technology, engineering and maths. We are working Government policies on tackling violence against with the bodies in the engineering and science industries women. [160635] to make those paths more attractive to women and to encourage them to consider them as positive career The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy options. We are also working further with the Department Browne): The Government are fully committed to tackling for Education to follow up on the recommendations of violence against women and girls. We have ring-fenced the Women’s Business Council, particularly on careers nearly £40 million of funding up to 2015 for domestic guidance. and sexual abuse victims’ services. We monitor the impact of our activity through our annually published action plans, inter-ministerial meetings and regular Senior Business Positions (Women) engagement with the women’s sector.

3. Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): What steps she is taking Kerry McCarthy: But the End Violence Against Women to increase the number of women in senior positions in Coalition’s recent “Deeds or Words?” report gave the business. [160634] Government a score of 2.5 out of 10 and the Department for Education a woeful zero—nul points—out of 10 for The Minister for Women and Equalities (Maria Miller): their efforts to tackle violence against women and girls. We support Lord Davies’s business-led approach to Have the Government made any assessment of why increasing the number of women on boards and our they got such a woeful score? What are they going to do “Think, Act, Report” initiative encourages companies to improve their score in future years? to report on gender equality in the workplace, promoting greater transparency. We have welcomed the Mr Browne: I am grateful for the opportunity to put recommendations of the Women’s Business Council in the Government’s side of the argument, because we supporting women in achieving their potential in the have a strong story to tell. We have introduced stronger workplace. laws on stalking; we are in the process of criminalising forced marriage, in legislation that I am leading at the moment; we have the highest conviction rates for rape Ian Swales: I thank Minister for that answer. Jane since recording began; and the Home Office is running Atkinson, a senior engineer at Sembcorp in my constituency, a very successful campaign—“This is abuse”—aimed at does everything she can to act as a role model and addressing teenage sexual behaviour. The Government encourage girls to take up technical careers. Will the have a strong record and I hope that we can persuade Minister ensure that more role models are identified to more people of that when they write reports in the show that manufacturing and industry are good careers future. for girls? Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to What specific steps are the Government taking to deal say that, whether through mentoring or sponsoring, with the disgraceful acts of “honour-based” violence this is an important way of getting more women up the offences? career ladder and into senior positions. However, we also need to make sure that they are considering non-typical Mr Browne: My hon. Friend is right to draw the choices in careers, and engineering is an important part House’s attention to this appalling practice. I know that of it. May I suggest that he looks at the Conservative he uses that term because it is the one that is widely used 1053 Oral Answers20 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 1054 to describe this, but I am always a bit guarded about Disabled People using it because there is nothing at all honourable about treating women in that way. I am sure that that message 5. Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): will go out from every Member of this House, and I What progress she has made on ensuring equality for hope it will be heard increasingly right across the country. disabled people. [160636] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work 9. [160641] Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) and Pensions (Esther McVey): Our disability strategy, (Lab): Only 6.5% of domestic violence incidents recorded Fulfilling Potential, has been developed with disabled by the police actually result in conviction. What kind of people. Through that we are removing the barriers that message does it send if an alleged perpetrator can prevent disabled people from taking a full part in society. receive a caution despite extensive corroborative evidence? Recent indicators show that disabled people are seeing Is that the norm? If it is, no wonder conviction rates are improvements in key outcomes and reduced inequalities so low. Or is it a question of there being one law for the between them and non-disabled people. We will drive rich and famous and another for everybody else? that progress further when we publish a full detailed plan next month. Mr Browne: There certainly is not one law for the rich and famous and another for everybody else, and if Barbara Keeley: The Government have refused to do anybody is under the impression that there is, they are cumulative impact assessments on their welfare changes, labouring under a misapprehension. I share the hon. but these were done recently by Demos and Scope for Lady’s concern about domestic violence conviction rates, the report, “Destination Unknown”. They found that and we want to see them increase. Sometimes it is thousands of disabled people will be hit by four, five or difficult to get a conviction in those circumstances, for six different cuts to their welfare benefits simultaneously. reasons that will be obvious to everybody in the House. Does the Minister think the Government have their Domestic violence is an extremely serious crime, and priorities right when disabled people will be hit by a loss although we have seen overall crime rates fall, we have of £28.3 billion of support, while millionaires are enjoying not seen a marked fall in domestic violence rates. However, a tax cut? that is something we actually quite welcome because it Esther McVey: The hon. Lady raises this point time may suggest a higher level of reporting of domestic and again and I have answered it. We do equality violence than previously existed. assessments on every policy change. A key reform that we have brought in for public sector duty is to ensure Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) that equality is embedded from concept to development (Lab): Women’s safety is being put at risk by Government to delivery, right the way through. Cumulative impact reforms. According to Homeless Link, Ministers still assessments are not taking place because we have taken have not sorted payments to refuges under universal advice that they could not give a proper measurement credit, and it is now clear that sanctuary schemes are as these changes in policy are being introduced gradually being put at risk. A woman who is a victim of domestic and those would therefore be inaccurate assessments. violence who has a specially installed panic room in her But we are doing independent assessment throughout home has been told that she must pay an extra £12 to ensure that we are getting these policy changes right. because it counts as a spare bedroom under the bedroom tax. Another woman who is at serious risk from her Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): We already abuser was moved by a multi-agency risk assessment know that Government reforms are pushing tens of conference into safe accommodation, but has now been thousands more disabled people into poverty and 440,000 told that she is under-occupying and will have to pay households which include a disabled person are being bedroom tax or move home again, when she is already hit by the bedroom tax. Today’s figures from the feeling unsafe. It is no good the Minister passing the Employment Related Services Association show that buck to local councils and chattering on about the 94% of the largest group of employment and support discretionary housing payment, as his hon. Friends and allowance recipients joining the Work programme have colleagues have been trying to advise him. The fact is not even been offered a job. Even the providers say that that such cases are happening across the country. Does the Work programme cannot meet all the costs of he have any idea how many women are being affected in getting a disabled person back to work, yet the Work this way? Have Ministers even asked? programme is costing us billions, so can the Minister explain why it is not working for disabled people? Mr Browne: I caution the right hon. Lady about Esther McVey: I would like to correct the hon. Lady. scaremongering in that way and trying to use this These things are working. For the first time ever, we extremely serious and harrowing issue to make a wider have looked to support disabled people and have them political point about the size of the welfare state, which fulfilling their potential. I am sure the hon. Lady will be after all is a part of Government policy on which delighted to hear that for the first time ever we are Labour is in full retreat and is increasingly willing to putting in place an employment strategy for disabled accept Government policy.There are discretionary payments people, bringing together businesses and disabled people available to councils in the circumstances that she describes to look at how they can fulfil their potential. So far and I urge councils to make those payments available in from what the hon. Lady is saying, it would be better if the right circumstances. she looked at the figures and got it right. 1055 20 JUNE 2013 Business of the House 1056

Business of the House us now how he intends to ensure that the voice of this House is heard ahead of any change in Government policy? 10.34 am I note that the High Speed 2 preparation Bill will be Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Leader of before the House next Wednesday, but there is still no the House give us the business for next week? sign of the Second Reading of the hybrid Bill, which is also necessary if HS2 is to proceed. The Government The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew promised that that Bill would have Royal Assent by the Lansley): The business for next week is as follows: end of this Parliament, but we all know that hybrid Bills take a very long time to get through Parliament. Is the MONDAY 24 JUNE—Second Reading of the Northern Leader of the House convinced that there is enough Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, followed by time left for the Government to fulfil their promise? debate on careers advice in schools for 12-16-year-olds. Can he guarantee that Second Reading of the hybrid The subject for this debate was nominated by the Backbench Bill will take place in this Session? Business Committee. Under this Government, top bankers have had a TUESDAY 25 JUNE—Opposition Day [4th allotted day]. double bonanza, as figures from the Office for National There will be a debate on lobbying, followed by a debate Statistics show a 64% increase in bonuses, timed to on the armed forces. Both debates will arise on a motion coincide with the Government’s huge tax cut for millionaires. in the name of the official Opposition. Is that because, as the figures show, half of all Tory WEDNESDAY 26 JUNE—I would like to remind the party funding comes from the City? House that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Last night, the Chancellor made his speech at the Exchequer will make a statement on the spending review, Mansion House in the aftermath of the final report of followed by Second Reading of the High Speed Rail the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, (Preparation) Bill, followed by motions relating to the but he has had nothing to say to this House. When can hybrid Bill procedure. we expect a statement on that from the Government? THURSDAY 27 JUNE—A general debate on legal aid Perhaps the Chancellor is too embarrassed to turn up, reform, followed by a general debate on multi-national as we learned that President Obama called him “Jeffrey” companies and UK corporation tax. The subjects for three times at the G8. There are plenty of names I could these debates have been nominated by the Backbench think of to call this Chancellor, but “Jeffrey” is not one Business Committee. of them. The provisional business for the week commencing Yesterday, the hon. Member for Stockton South (James 1 July will include: Wharton) presented his Bill on an EU referendum to MONDAY 1JULY—Remaining stages of the Finance the House. I am afraid that the Bill is turning into a bit (No. 2) Bill (Day 1). of a farce: last week, even the Leader of the House could not keep a straight face when trying to argue that TUESDAY 2JULY—Conclusion of remaining stages of the Finance (No. 2) Bill (Day 2). the hon. Gentleman was running his own Bill, and this week the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary had WEDNESDAY 3JULY— Estimates Day [1st allotted day]. to be advised that they could not sign a private Member’s There will be a debate on public expenditure and health Bill without it turning into a Government Bill. Has no care services, followed by a debate on Rail 2020. Further one told the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary details will be given in the Official Report. that if they really want to sponsor a private Member’s The details are as follows: Debate on public expenditure Bill, they can easily do so—from the Back Benches? and health care services. Debate on Rail 2020. May I take this opportunity to congratulate all those At 7 pm the House will be asked to agree all outstanding who featured in the Queen’s birthday honours earlier estimates, followed by a motion to approve a European this week? Of course, the Leader of the House is a document relating to reforming Europol. previous recipient, so he knows all about the thrill of THURSDAY 4JULY—Proceedings on the Supply and being recognised by Her Majesty, but does he agree that Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill, followed by business the Government’s strategy of giving people gongs to to be nominated by the Backbench Business Committee. keep them quiet is adding to the Queen’s work load with little obvious effect? On the day after his knighthood FRIDAY 5JULY—Private Members’ Bills. was announced, the hon. Member for Gainsborough I should also like to inform the House that the (Sir Edward Leigh) showed his gratitude on the Conservative business in Westminster Hall for 27 June will be: Home website by describing his own Government’s legislative programme as THURSDAY 27 JUNE—A debate on the First Report of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, “Anair transport “the weakest…in recent memory” strategy for Northern Ireland”. Does the Leader of the House agree with him? The recent birthday honours also brought good news Ms Eagle: I thank the Leader of the House for for the right hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Sir Andrew announcing next week’s business. Stunell), who was knighted, and the right hon. and We are witnessing a continuing deterioration of the learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies situation in Syria: the latest estimates are that 93,000 Campbell), who joined the Order of the Companions of people have been killed, and there is a rapidly escalating Honour. I congratulate them both. Some 14% of Liberal humanitarian crisis on the border as millions flee. Will Democrat Members have now been knighted, which the Leader of the House undertake to keep the House means that there are more knights on the Liberal Democrat informed of the Government’s intentions? Can he tell Benches than there are women. Does the Leader of the 1057 Business of the House20 JUNE 2013 Business of the House 1058

House agree that at least in this important respect the arm the Syrian National Coalition. Were any such Liberal Democrats are punching well above their weight decision to be made we would not implement it unless in this Government? Any more of this and the Liberal and until it secured the support of this House on a Democrat Whips Office will be scouring eBay for a substantive motion. I believe that that meets the concern round table. of colleagues. In addition, the Prime Minister yesterday With all the disunity in the Government, it is reassuring accurately reflected on the simple fact that where national to see that the Leader of the House and his deputy are security interests are engaged it must be correct that the working together, shoulder to shoulder, as a great team—at Government reserve the right to take any necessary least, that is what I thought until the leaflet I am holding action in defence of our security. I emphasise, however, came to my attention. It was delivered this weekend that this in no sense qualifies the commitment I have through a door in the constituency of the Deputy given to the House on the question of arms and Syria. Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for Carshalton The shadow Leader of the House asked about HS2. and Wallington (Tom Brake). In it, he campaigns Her points will be addressed in the debate on the High passionately to save a hospital that his own Government Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill, which will no doubt give are closing. He says: an opportunity to look toward the introduction of the “I am calling upon the Secretary of State for Health Andrew HS2 hybrid Bill. The pace at which the hybrid Bill will Lansley to meet urgently with me and local councillors to discuss be able to progress will be debated next Wednesday in a the fate of our hospital.” number of motions relating to its procedure. It might That tells us he does not seem to know what job his boss benefit the House to know that the motions have now does, he apparently cannot get a meeting with him, and been tabled and are available, along with an explanatory he does not seem able to defend his own Government’s memorandum, from the Vote Office. actions to his constituents. Mr Speaker, I feel a knighthood The hon. Lady asked about banking, in particular the coming on. banking Bill. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was clear at the Mansion House last night that the Government Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the shadow Leader of welcome the Parliamentary Commission on Banking the House for her response to the business statement Standards. Indeed, I think we can all say now that it and to the Opposition, in particular, for equipping me demonstrates what a good decision it was to proceed to announce the business for the Supply day next Tuesday. with a parliamentary commission. If we had gone down I join her in paying tribute to all those recognised in the the line of a public inquiry, I suspect that evidence birthday honours list. I congratulate, on behalf of the would still be being taken rather than measures being House, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member implemented. The Financial Services (Banking Reform) for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell), my hon. Bill is before the House and the Chancellor has made it Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward clear that, where measures require legislation, we will Leigh) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Hazel seek to introduce them during the consideration of the Grove (Sir Andrew Stunell) on their awards. I would also Bill. I have not yet had the opportunity to announce the like to congratulate Elizabeth Gardiner, from parliamentary remaining stages of that Bill in this House. counsel, and Roland Hunt, head of parliamentary support I have seen press reports about the Chancellor being in the Opposition Whips Office, and I think that the referred to as Jeffrey. I heard this morning that there was House will be particular pleased to learn that Robin a bit of a debate about who was cool at the G8 summit. Fell, Principal Doorkeeper of the House, was made an Jeffrey Osborne would have been cool—that is for sure. Officer of the Order of the British Empire. From the Chancellor’s point of view, it is probably just Honours are of course very appropriate for our Liberal as well that the President of the United States did not Democrat colleagues in the coalition, and much deserved, refer to him as Ozzy, which would have been worse. so we are delighted to have seen them. I am nervous about the reference the shadow Leader of the House Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): It’s better than made to the benefit of the Liberal Democrat knights Gideon, though, isn’t it? sitting at a round table. In this morning’s newspapers it was noted how good a round table is in enabling consensus Mr Lansley: I will just settle for George, if that is all to emerge in office meetings. The trouble is that the only right. round table I know that could accommodate all the On the European Union (Referendum) Bill, I have Liberal Democrat knights is the one in my office, so do announced that private Members’ Bills will be considered not tell the Deputy Prime Minister or there might be a on Friday 5 July and I know that my colleagues are all furniture raid. looking forward to supporting my hon. Friend the The shadow Leader of the House talked about the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton). literature in south-west London—[Interruption.] Yes, it I do not think that the hon. Member for Wallasey was this week. As she will be aware, and as the Deputy (Ms Eagle) asked any further questions, but I want to Leader of the House has advised me, that is a manifestation say one more thing. She and her colleagues have scheduled of the Liberal Democrats’ green policies; they do not a debate on lobbying next week and I want to emphasise waste paper. One should not waste a good leaflet. that the Government are committed to enhancing the On Syria, the shadow Leader of the House will have transparency of political life. This Government are the heard what the Prime Minister said yesterday, and the most transparent ever, proactively publishing details of Foreign Secretary and other Foreign Office Ministers ministerial meetings, Government procurement and other have kept the House fully informed. I think that I have items of public interest. I am looking forward to next been clear about this at business questions before, but Tuesday’s debate, because it will be an opportunity to for the avoidance of any doubt I will say it again: no make very clear that we are proceeding with the coalition decision has been made within Government for us to programme, as we always said we would, whereas the 1059 Business of the House20 JUNE 2013 Business of the House 1060

[Mr Lansley] review being under the auspices of the Backbench Business Committee, I should point out that I think all Members Labour party, over 13 years, never took a step. In fact, it would agree with me when I say that if the comprehensive put the issue in the “too hot to handle” basket. We as a spending review is not Government business, I do not Government are making it clear that we are going to do know what is. The Backbench Business Committee it and have said so time and again. It is curious that an would be delighted to schedule the Government’s business, Opposition motion is asking for a Bill to be introduced but if that is his intention will he at least allocate an when we have said that we will introduce such a Bill extra day to the Committee so that we may have such a before the summer recess. debate? If not, will he schedule it in Government time?

Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): May we have a Mr Lansley: I am sure that the hon. Lady recognises debate on the protocols that should apply to the information that many of the subjects that the Wright Committee given to Members of Parliament if failings are found in said the Backbench Business Committee should determine NHS or care home facilities in their constituencies? It is the priority of and allocate time to are the responsibility not just the Care Quality Commission but other of Government. Paragraph 139 of the Wright Committee organisations, such as Monitor and, indeed, the royal report made it perfectly clear that debates on the spending colleges that investigate concerns about safety in the review are precisely the sort of debates that it should be NHS. The Royal College of Surgeons recently undertook up to the House to decide whether to schedule. As it an inquiry into surgery at Horton general hospital in happens, in the provisional business that I have announced my constituency. The report exists and is being talked for the week beginning 1 July, the House will debate the about, but it has not been published. In such circumstances, Finance Bill and there will be an estimates day, which there should be, post-Francis, a clear understanding of will include debates relating to the departmental estimates what information is provided to MPs if failings are for Health and Transport. found in the NHS or social care in their own constituencies. Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): Estate Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend will know that, under agents in Portsmouth are required to display energy this coalition Government, there has never been as efficiency information on property advertisements. Not much clarity in terms of the standards that the NHS is only did the Cabinet Office give them little time to do setting out to meet. They are expressed in the NHS that, but it does not give those details on advertisements clinical standards and the measurement of outcomes. for Government property that is for sale or to let and it As my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary said seems confused about whether a sales listing is an offer yesterday, rightly, that emphasis on the publication of to sell or lease. That chaos and confusion rather undermines data in order to inform patients and the public and to the unhelpful answer that I received from the Department hold everybody in the NHS better to account is critical. for Communities and Local Government, which states My hon. Friend asks what Members of Parliament that “advertisement” is should do. I hope that in any case all Members of “an ordinary English word which does not require further Parliament would, in the first instance, be alongside the clarification.”—[Official Report, 4 March 2013; Vol. 563, c. 779W.] providers of health care in their constituencies, because Will the Leader of the House find time to consider the first responsibility for delivering standards lies with those matters given that, since December, the performance the management of the health care providers. Alongside of neither Department has been energetic or efficient? that, the new clinical commissioning groups and NHS England have a responsibility. I think that Members of Mr Lansley: I will, of course, take up the points that Parliament will find it extremely helpful to have a my hon. Friend raises with the Cabinet Office and the continuing dialogue with their clinical commissioning Department for Communities and Local Government. groups, which have a responsibility for delivering high- The Government are engaged in an ambitious programme quality care to the patients for whom they commission of selling surplus public sector land and assets, not least services. They are supported by NHS England, where in order to secure the building of 10,000 homes on that we have mainstreamed the patient safety responsibilities land. When we are selling properties, we must try to set of the former National Patient Safety Agency. an example by securing energy efficiency in those properties When those measures fail to deliver satisfactory responses and advertising that fact. in the view of a Member of Parliament, the Member can and should go to the Care Quality Commission. John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): If the The CQC would then have a responsibility to investigate Government are struggling to produce a lobbying Bill, and secure action to ensure that essential standards are which they clearly are, they can have my Bill. It was met and that those who are responsible for failures are produced two years ago and could be printed before the held to account. debate next Tuesday. It would certainly be far superior to any drivel that the Deputy Prime Minister might Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): The come up with. Leader of the House has announced that the statement on the comprehensive spending review will be on Mr Lansley: The Government are not struggling to Wednesday. I understand that it is his intention not to produce a Bill; we have set out the timetable and will schedule a debate on the comprehensive spending review, introduce a Bill before the summer recess. The clauses but to point anybody who wants such a debate in the for a Bill were published previously and were the subject direction of the Backbench Business Committee. Before of a consultation last year. In that context, it is a bit rich he reaches for the Wright Committee report and reads of the Labour party to talk about wanting cross-party the small section about the comprehensive spending talks on the issue, when no Labour MP, including those 1061 Business of the House20 JUNE 2013 Business of the House 1062 on the Opposition Front Bench, supplied any response suffered harm as a consequence of accessing NHS to the Government consultation on the clauses that we treatment, but we must ensure that that is done cost- published. effectively. I know all Members—including Government Members—feel strongly that we have arrived at a position Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Some 99% of all UK where negligence payments to expert witnesses and limited companies have beneficial owners who are exactly lawyers are sometimes as great as the compensation the same as the legal shareholders disclosed on the paid to families, and we want to bear down on that very Companies House website, and many people—including hard. the Prime Minister and Will Morris, the head of tax at CBI—have expressed their preference for putting company Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): In beneficial ownership into the public domain, because the light of comments reported this morning that the the “many eyes” principle keeps data honest. Will the Deputy Prime Minister described the Nigella Lawson Leader of the House agree to a debate on the impact of incident of domestic violence as “fleeting”, even though an open, public register of company beneficial share we know the perpetrator has accepted a caution for ownership on UK businesses, and agree that that would assault, may we please have a debate on how seriously not be onerous? the Government take the issue of domestic violence?

Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend makes a good point. Mr Lansley: I am sure that the hon. Lady will have She will recall that in response to questions following heard the Minister of State, Home Department, my hon. his statement on the Lough Erne declaration yesterday, Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), the Prime Minister made clear his wish to see that responding to questions earlier. The Government are register of beneficial ownership completed, published committed to doing everything we can to prevent domestic and made publicly available, not only in this country violence and provide support to victims, which is why but in a number of countries. That multilateral, international the Home Office produced the violence against women approach extends not only to the G8 but beyond to and girls action plan, including a ring-fenced budget of developing countries, and, as the Prime Minister said, it nearly £40 million. Also, multi-agency risk assessment was recognised as important by a number of Heads of centres are operating in more than 250 areas across the Government of African nations who attended the lunch country. It is serious, we take it seriously and we are on Tuesday. Such an approach can make a big difference acting in a substantial way. to rooting out corruption and promoting economic development in developing countries. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Has my right hon. Friend seen my early-day motion 282 on the extension Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): In of free school meals to young people attending further March, the Government made the welcome announcement education colleges? that they intend to publish a Green Paper on graduated licensing for young drivers, to address the dreadful toll [That this House notes that young people attending of young people being killed or seriously injured on our further education colleges do not receive free school meals roads. Will the Leader of the House advise whether we despite being eligible for them; further notes that the are likely to see that Green Paper before the summer Association of Colleges has found that 79 per cent of recess, and, if not, when we might expect a statement? colleges believe that free school meals for 16 to 18 years olds would encourage them to stay on in education; further notes that young people who attend sixth form Mr Lansley: I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a date. and are eligible for free school meals do receive them; and Transport questions are next Thursday—I will perhaps therefore urges the Government to look at what can be alert my hon. Friends in that Department, although done to treat sixth formers and college students equally they will know of his interest. Forgive me if I am wrong, and support these young people to continue in education.] but my recollection is that the private Members’ Bills published yesterday included one by an hon. Member—the Harlow college in my constituency estimates that name, I fear, escapes me—who was introducing a Bill to 350 young people are in severe need of free school deal precisely with the point raised by the hon. Gentleman. meals, and not receiving them puts their education at risk, yet children who go to sixth-form schools get free Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): Does my right school meals. Will my right hon. Friend lobby the hon. Friend agree that we should have a debate on the Chancellor to include it in the spending round next amount of medical negligence payments being made by week? the NHS, particularly following the tragic cases in Barking, Havering and Redbridge Trust, which serves my Ilford Mr Lansley: I understand my hon. Friend’s point, not North constituency? least because FE colleges in my constituency and adjoining it have raised exactly that point with me too. It is, of Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend raises a point that many course, a matter of available resources, but even before Members will recognise as important. We want to minimise the spending review, if he were to catch your eye, Mr cases of clinical negligence that give rise to compensation, Speaker, he might have an opportunity to raise the and that is the first priority. I said earlier that patient matter with Education Ministers at Question Time on safety being mainstreamed in NHS England is terrifically Monday. important, but unfortunately the volume of payments through the NHS Litigation Authority is now roughly Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The £1 billion a year, and there is a massive contingent Leader of the House will agree that the Parliamentary liability. We cannot expect that to disappear and it is Commission on Banking Standards has produced rather important to have compensation where people have a good report, but it leads us to conclude that there is 1063 Business of the House20 JUNE 2013 Business of the House 1064

[Mr Barry Sheerman] for appeal on behalf of Mr Qatada. I cannot offer a statement at the moment, but the Home Secretary has unfinished business over what went wrong with our kept the House fully informed and I am sure she will banking sector. May we have an early debate on the continue to do so. really sad state of the accountancy profession and the auditing process in this country? It is high time we got Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Diolch. Sianel to the heart of the matter. Pedwar Cymru, or S4C, is hugely important to the cultural life of Wales and underpins the success of the Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman is right about the Welsh language. Broadcasting is not a devolved matter; commission: it has produced an important and welcome it is the responsibility of this House. Will my right hon. report. He might like to raise these issues at Treasury Friend ensure that we have a debate at an early opportunity questions on Tuesday, if he has an opportunity, but on the value of S4C and its contribution to the future of notwithstanding that, as I said, I have not yet been able the Welsh language? to announce the timing for consideration of the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill, which touches on these Mr Lansley: I am familiar with some programmes. issues. I would add—this touches on accountancy and Pobol y Cwm is my favourite programme on S4C, other professions related to financial services—that the because it is filmed in Menai Bridge, which I know well. commission has established, and the Government agree My hon. Friend is right about the importance of S4C absolutely, that there is no competition between high and it is good for the House to have opportunities from standards in financial services and global competitiveness. time to time to examine and reiterate that, but the best The appalling events of 2008 and their aftermath, including thing would probably be for him to secure the support their impact worldwide, demonstrate that global of other Members from Wales and make an approach competitiveness, including the trust, credibility and to the Backbench Business Committee. competitiveness of major financial centres, depends on setting and maintaining high banking and financial Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): services standards. The Leader of the House will know that a review of the Wright reforms is currently going through parliamentary Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): Committees. The reforms have been an utter disaster Housing is one of the issues most frequently raised at for the smaller parties, leaving the proceedings of the my surgeries, whether it be access to social housing or House almost exclusively in the hands of the Government simply getting on the property ladder. It has been and the Labour Opposition. Will he support having a estimated that in the UK there are 920,000 empty place for a Member from the minority parties on the homes, of which 330,000 are long-term empty. Please Backbench Business Committee and on the proposed may we have a debate to explore what can be done House business committee? between local and national Government to bring these homes back into use and so provide more homes and Mr Lansley: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman feels reduce the pressure to build on our green fields? that way. The intention of the Government, and I think of the major parties in this House, has been to ensure Mr Lansley: I think that many Members will recognise that there is access for smaller parties. In particular, the issue that my hon. Friend describes in his constituency. arrangements have been made for smaller parties to He will recall the changes in council tax treatment attend the Backbench Business Committee, even if they relating to empty homes, which, difficult as it might be are not able to vote. I remind the hon. Gentleman and in some cases, creates an additional substantial disincentive the House that I went recently to the Political and to leave homes empty, which is important. We want Constitutional Reform Committee, which is undertaking them occupied. In addition, the Government are on an inquiry into the Wright Committee reforms. I made track to deliver 170,000 more affordable homes by it clear that at this stage I have no proposals to introduce March 2015. It is an investment programme of nearly a House business committee, but I await the Political £20 billion. Furthermore, of course, by supporting the and Constitutional Reform Committee’s report. If the wider house building programme, not least with schemes hon. Gentleman has any points to raise, he should be like Help to Buy, we are beginning to see the steps making them to the Political and Constitutional Reform needed to get the people who need housing into good- Committee. quality new housing. Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): May we have a Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Yesterday King debate on the protection of our green belt, and in Abdullah of Jordan told Members at a meeting that particular on the important role it plays in protecting Jordan was ready to accept Abu Qatada back. As the the character and setting of our historic cities, such as Leader of the House knows, the total cost to the taxpayer York in my constituency where more than 2,000 acres of of Abu Qatada’s legal fees is now £1.7 million. Tomorrow green-belt land is under threat from the council’s draft the House will automatically ratify the treaty with Jordan, local plan? which Jordan has already ratified. May we have a statement from the Home Secretary on the likely timetable for the Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend makes an important return of Abu Qatada to Jordan? point. I know he will have sympathy with other colleagues who have historic cities in a countryside setting in their Mr Lansley: The right hon. Gentleman understands constituency. That was precisely the description applied these matters well and knows that the ratification in to Cambridge when its structure plan was agreed some Jordan is a positive step forward. As he said, the House 10 years ago. The essence of the Government’s localism will ratify the treaty, but that does not preclude opportunities policy is to give more opportunities for local communities 1065 Business of the House20 JUNE 2013 Business of the House 1066 to establish the framework for local planning and Mr Lansley: It is not a conflicting policy at all. As I development. The Government have given that power said to my hon. Friend the Member for York Outer to York city council, which is not under the control of (Julian Sturdy), this comes down to decisions made our party, and I hope that my hon. Friend is successful locally by local people and the local authorities that in ensuring that it listens to the views of the people he represent them. If they attach the importance and sense represents. of permanence to the green belt that is required—as I think they should—that is fine. However, if I may revert Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Following to my own constituency, the decision from 10 years the statement yesterday on the hospital and Care Quality ago—made locally, before the last Government introduced Commission scandal, is it not time that we had a full overriding planning guidance—did in fact give up some debate, in Government time, on the purpose, intention green belt, although it was regarded as poor quality and scope of the Data Protection Act 1998, so that green belt that did not contribute to the protection of Parliament is able to make its position crystal clear and Cambridge as a city. Houses are being built on what was stop lawyers’ organisations and petty officials using the previously green-belt land, but we feel strongly, as my Act to hide information, to protect wrongdoers, and to hon. Friend and others do, about the green belt that cover up their own incompetence, as seems to happen contributes clearly and directly to the environmental all too regularly at present? quality of the cities and towns we live in.

Mr Lansley: I cannot offer the hon. Gentleman a Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): debate at this moment. I heard the Information Given that around 20 to 30 Anglican churches are Commissioner talking about this on the radio this morning. closed for regular worship every year, may we have an One of the most important things is for there to be urgent debate on how we can work with local dioceses clarity in the minds of those in organisations, and those to keep churches open? They include St Barnabas church who advise them, on what the 1998 Act requires and in my constituency, which has been threatened with what it does not require. As the hon. Gentleman may closure after being at the heart of the community for have heard in the exchanges after the statement yesterday, more than 120 years. there are clear exemptions under the Act relating to the public interest. Mr Lansley: I am sure the House recognises that my hon. Friend makes an important point for many Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): communities where churches have been so important Further to the concerns I raised on the Public Accounts for so long. If I may, I will direct my hon. Friend to Committee 18 months ago about whether Care Quality questions to my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury Commission inspectors had the clinical experience to (Sir Tony Baldry), representing the Church Commissioners, understand the industry they were inspecting, and given on Thursday 4 July. His point would be most appropriately that the comments on the radio yesterday by the new responded to then, and he has taken this opportunity to chair suggest that that is still the case, may we have a give our hon. Friend notice. debate on the Care Quality Commission and, in particular, the way in which senior officials have escaped accountability, including some who chaired that body and now sit in Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): the other place? May we have a debate about the way in which we decide when and where high-risk defendants are put on trial? Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend has examined the work Last week Dale Cregan was sentenced to full life of the Care Quality Commission carefully and critically imprisonment for the murders of Police Constables through his work on the Public Accounts Committee. Fiona Bone and Nicola Hughes in my constituency. I What is clear from what we saw yesterday, as well as the am sure that Members from all parts of the House will report produced by Grant Thornton, is that decisions join me in welcoming the news that he will never leave were made—in fact, under the last Government—relating prison as long as he lives. However, the cost of ferrying to the generalist character of inspection and the this man and his co-defendants on a 70-mile round trip disbandment of the specialist investigations team, which up the M6 to Preston every day for four months was is one of a number of a things that, on reflection, more than £5 million, with real risks attached to the contributed to a very poor regulatory performance at public. Greater Manchester police and Police and Crime that time. The CQC has new management, new chief Commissioner Tony Lloyd asked the Government to inspectors and a lot of opportunities. I hope we will reclassify Preston jail as a high-security prison, but this have an opportunity at some point for a debate that not was refused and the alternative option of holding the only looks at the causes of that regulatory failure in the trial at the Old Bailey was not taken up either. Is there past, but gives an opportunity to the CQC to demonstrate not a better way to minimise both the cost to the public how it can be a changed organisation. and the police and the risks to the public than transporting very dangerous criminals in that way? Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): The national planning policy framework states that it is inappropriate to build Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman makes an important on the green belt, yet a ministerial statement last September point. I do not know all the circumstances relating to said that local plans would be fast-tracked if they the case, or the considerations that led to those decisions included the green belt. My constituents want to know being made. If I may, I will raise the matter with the whether the green belt is safe, so may we have an urgent Prisons Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, debate on Government guidance to local decision makers my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam on this conflicting policy? (Jeremy Wright), and ask him to respond. 1067 Business of the House 20 JUNE 2013 1068

Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): Brighton Points of Order and Hove are awash with uncollected rubbish and litter because of the inability of the Green council and the unions to reach agreement. Tourism, public health and 11.17 am residents are all being put at risk. May we please have a Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): debate on this important issue? On a point of order, Mr Speaker— Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend makes a good point. Mr Speaker: I hope that this is a genuine point of The irony will not be lost on his constituents that, order and not a means of delay. There is no need although they have a Green council, the quality of their to delay. I know that the Front Benchers are not here environment is being undermined by these actions. I yet—or at least half of them are not—but that does not know that my hon. Friend is doing everything he can to matter. We can get on perfectly well without them. ensure that the issues are resolved, but it is important However, if the hon. Gentleman wants to raise his point that the trade unions do not put the interests of the of order and test his vocal chords, I shall not decline public at risk through the steps they are taking, and that him the opportunity. the council steps up to its responsibilities. If he can bring the two together, I am sure that his constituents will be grateful to him. Thomas Docherty: Further to the point made by the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee, my hon. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): On Sunday, I was Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha delighted to join a Rossendale and Pendle mountain Engel), about how next week’s statement should be rescue team exercise on Pendle Hill. Local mountain labelled, could you possibly ask the Leader of the House rescue organisations across the UK are an invaluable to ensure that there is no loss of the time available to life-saving emergency service, run entirely by volunteers Back Benchers as a result of this oversight by the and funded by charitable donations. May we have a debate Government? on mountain rescue in the UK and on what Members across the House can do to support local groups? Mr Speaker: I am not sure that any detriment is set to be suffered by the House, but I come to this matter Mr Lansley: I very much agree with my hon. Friend slightly unsighted. The brow of the Leader of the about the importance and value of the service provided House is furrowed, which suggests that he is as perplexed by mountain rescue teams. They are central to the by the hon. Gentleman’s point of order as I am. It emergency response in their areas and work routinely might be that there is a point of immense sophistication with the emergency services in exercises. They are also wrapped up in the enigma of the hon. Gentleman’s integral to the work of local resilience forums, and it is point of order, but thus far it has escaped me. We will not least for that reason that the Government provide leave it there for the time being. If there are no further financial support to the three mountain rescue organisations, points of order, either genuine or bogus, we can now including £128,000 to Mountain Rescue England and move on— Wales over the four years to 2014-15. I cannot promise a debate, but it may be appropriate for my hon. Friend Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): On a point of and other colleagues with a constituency interest in the order, Mr Speaker. I would like to seek your guidance matter to approach the Backbench Business Committee. on a letter that the Leader of the House sent to me last None the less, I am sure that the mountain rescue night in relation to an answer that he gave me in the organisations will be grateful for his and other Members’ House last week. I would like to bring it to the attention interest and support. of the House, and perhaps I could have your guidance on this. I forwarded a copy of the letter to you this Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): With just morning. It was about a response to a question on legal over a year to go, may we have a debate to celebrate the aid. fact that Yorkshire councils and the UK Government have finally reached a conclusion on how best to make Mr Speaker: I am bound to say that that does not the Tour de France 2014 the best ever? As a Yorkshire sound like a point of order. [Interruption.] The Leader MP, may I thank the Government for the £10 million of the House will probably know the contents of the commitment and £21 million underwrite that they are letter of which I have not yet had sight. It may have giving? Will the Leader of the House also confirm that been sent to me, but I have not yet seen it. he is dusting off the yellow Lycra outfit in his wardrobe? The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Mr Lansley: I will be happy to be a spectator at the Lansley): Further to that point of order, I am grateful Tour de France, although I confess that that might not for the opportunity to offer a clarification. As the hon. be in Yorkshire but in my own constituency when the Lady knows, at last week’s business questions, she asked tour comes through there afterwards. I shall not be me whether Justice Ministers had met the Criminal Bar cycling myself, but I shall be glad to be there cheering. Association. I recalled the occasion; I was sitting on the Bench with Justice Ministers on 21 May and I heard them respond to questions, listing the stakeholders that they met. I confess that I mistakenly thought that the Criminal Bar Association was in that long list of stakeholders, but it was not. That was on 21 May, as I say, but my noble Friend Lord McNally met the Criminal Bar Association on 30 May. 1069 Points of Order 20 JUNE 2013 1070

Mr Speaker: Well, whether that answer spawns general contentment I do not know, but it does seem to me to Backbench Business deal with the matter for the time being. I will of course cast my eye over the letter from the hon. Member for Carers Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) as soon as I have the opportunity, but I do not think it need detain us from 11.20 pm moving on to debate the important issue of provision for carers, which is the first of this afternoon’s debates Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): I beg to selected by the Backbench Business Committee. move, That this House has considered the matter of carers. I start by thanking the Backbench Business Committee for choosing this as the first debate of this parliamentary Session since the re-establishment of that Committee. I very much appreciate the fact that within the space of a few days after the celebration of national carers week, the Backbench Business Committee was able to grant us this time to examine how better to support carers in this country and to recognise the extraordinary contribution that each and every carer makes to their families and our society. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) and the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) for their support for this application and for the contributions that I look forward to hearing from them later in the debate. As I said, last week was national carers week. With over 10,000 events up and down the country—I am sure that many hon. Members will have had the opportunity to participate in them in their constituency—this was the biggest carers week so far. Here in Westminster, MPs were invited to a variety of events, including a speed dating event with carers with a wide range of life experiences. I had the opportunity to meet, among others, a woman called Karen whose husband has Parkinson’s. She told me about her experience of being a carer for someone with that particular condition and about the isolation she felt, having taken on that caring role. She conveyed a sense of being increasingly excluded from participating in many aspects of society. I met other carers involved with Marie Curie, who told me how, because of the nature of the diagnosis and the rapid progression of the cancers in question, they experienced additional strains and burdens in trying to get the right support at the right time for their loved ones. The week concluded with a lively carers question time event, in which the Minister and a range of experts participated. This year’s theme was “Prepared to Care?”It highlighted the fact that people who take on caring roles are often not prepared for the physical and emotional impact of caring, nor for its impact on their lives in other ways, not least financially. In that sense, it is worth stressing that this is not a “them and us” issue. It is easy to think about this as something that is going to happen to other people, whereas the figures clearly show that three out of five of us will be a carer at some point in our lives. It will touch all of us, either through personal experience or through our family’s experiences. I want to pay particular tribute to the carers I have met over the years in my constituency during my time as a Member of Parliament. I want to thank the Sutton Carers Centre for being a lifeline for thousands of carers—young and old alike. The carers centre in Sutton has been my guide and teacher on carer issues over the past 15 years. Whether through shadowing carers to learn directly from them or meeting carers at the centre, I have found that the things they want—the things they tell me they want—are not impossible or unreasonable. 1071 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1072

[Paul Burstow] and services. Carers must be entitled to more flexibility at work, although the Government have done much in They do not want to feel that everything is a constant that regard. Given the scale of demographic change—the battle—a battle to get a diagnosis, a battle to get an over-85s are now the fastest-growing section of the assessment, a battle to get support, a battle to get a population, and their number is set to double by 2030—and break, or, indeed, a battle to navigate around the system. the growing proportion of “sandwich workers” who are Over the years, I have met and listened to many carers attempting to juggle paid work with the demands of in my constituency and I have met carers for whom the caring for both children and older relatives, the provision lifeline that keeps them sane and keeps them connected of flexibility is becoming an imperative. The Government is not the formal social care support, nor even the carer must also think about how the market for low-level centre. It may be, for instance, the local bowling club, as support services such as cleaning, shopping, gardening I learned from one of the carers whom I shadowed. The and befriending can be increased and, crucially, brought determination of the club’s members to support a friend into the formal labour market. was the most important thing in that person’s life. Not enough is made of such informal, often fragile networks Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I of support, although they often represent the vital congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing the difference between just surviving and having a life. debate, which is timely given some of the things that There is clear evidence that the caring role takes its have been happening in old people’s homes. Does he toll on people, physically, emotionally and financially. agree that there is a case for asking employers to help Six out of 10 carers report experiencing depression people who have to care for a family member? Such because of their caring role, and, as I have said, caring people are often under stress, and if they have to give up can be a lonely business: three out of five carers say their jobs, their standard of living will fall as well. that they have experienced difficulties in maintaining relationships with friends. Another problem is the desire Paul Burstow: That is a key point, and one that I want of many carers to stay in the workplace so that they can to put to the Government very strongly. Carers can only remain connected through their work. More than 3 million be helped to remain in the work force and balance their are trying to balance their caring responsibilities with working lives with their caring responsibilities if the paid work, often at the expense of working hours or right substitute care and flexibility are available, and if their career prospects. employers have the right attitudes in the first place. Last June I hosted a carers summit with the forum Employers for Carers, led by BT. The aim was to Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Will the explore opportunities to help carers to remain in the right hon. Gentleman give way? workplace. BT and other members of the forum, such as British Gas, have a good track record in that regard. Paul Burstow: I will take one more intervention, but I They invest in their staff and want to retain them, so must not take too many more, because I have only identifying and supporting carers seems logical to them. 15 minutes in which to speak. The cost to the bottom line of a business of replacing a member of staff can be huge, and one of the purposes of the summit was to enable more employers to see the Kate Green: Could not public sector employers be business case for carer-friendly employment practices. exemplars in this respect? Can the right hon. Gentleman The Government subsequently established a “task and suggest any ways in which such good practice could be finish”group to consider ways of creating an environment spread throughout the public sector? in which people could balance their caring responsibilities with their careers. That work is vital. Paul Burstow: The hon. Lady is absolutely right to According to a recent survey conducted by YouGov say public sector employers should be—and could be, for Carers UK, an estimated 2.3 million people have and must be—exemplars in this. Indeed, it would be given up work at some point to care for an older or great if the NHS itself was an exemplar in this area, yet disabled loved one. One in four gave up work or reduced as I will come on to say, I think in too many ways their working hours because the cost of replacement institutionally the NHS is rather biased against carers, care was too high, and a similar number reported that and certainly blind to their needs in too many cases. services were not flexible enough to meet their needs. There is an economic reason why we need to do more The impact of being forced to give up work to care for a in this area. It is estimated that as many as 50% of those loved one on an individual’s finances alone is clear, but involved in personal and household services operate in the London School of Economics has estimated that the grey economy. This represents a further missed the hidden cost to the economy—in benefits and lost opportunity in terms of job creation and lost revenue to tax revenues—is a staggering £1.3 billion a year, every the Exchequer. Looking across the channel to France year. When lost earnings are taken into account, the where work began almost a decade ago to address a figure can rise to as much as £5.3 billion. That is not a number of these issues, market development for homecare cost that the United Kingdom can continue to bear as a services has led to the creation of an additional 2 million consequence of a failure to act and provide the safeguards, jobs, with the industry becoming one of the biggest supports and systems that would enable carers to remain growth sectors in that economy. in employment. There are clearly lessons to be learnt in how to There is an urgent need to us to reframe the debate. support and strengthen carers’ ability to care in a way We must stop focusing on the burden on the economy, that supports the wider UK economy. I hope the Minister and see caring as an asset and an opportunity. We must will be able to tell us when the “task and finish group” begin to view it in the way we view child care support recommendations will be published. 1073 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1074

Moving on, one of the most practical ways to support Under the health service reforms, with clinical carers is to provide them with breaks from caring. That commissioning groups taking the lead, there have been can help reduce the stress and the often constant demands some examples of improvement, such as in Huntingdon, that caring involves, and allow them to have the time to where there is an interesting carers breaks project led by improve their own physical and mental health. GPs. Partnered with Crossroads Care, they identify In recognition of the value of carers breaks, the carers by meeting them socially, and prescribe breaks. Government committed in the 2010 spending review to Carers who are met in that way tell me they have for the spend £400 million over four years on breaks for carers first time had the experience of having raised their living in England. As the Minister at the time, I was needs as carers and seen that translated into tangible convinced of the importance of giving carers a break action that made a difference for them. We need to see and knew that it would make a huge difference to their more of that. It is a vital lifeline. lives. I therefore regret that the evidence suggests that As has already been said, there are huge issues to do that has not happened. Monitoring by the Carers Trust with identification of carers. Research by Macmillan for the year 2011-12 found that action on the ground has found that while over 70% of carers came into had often been slow or non-existent. Despite clear contact with GPs, doctors and nursing staff, only 11% reporting requirements, in many areas it was impossible of all carers reported that they had been identified as a to track how money had been spent, and in a small carer by a health professional. We as a Government talk minority of cases nothing at all had been spent on about making every contact count, and we should do so services for carers. Some fantastic work has been done, when it comes to identifying carers. I hope the Minister but progress has remained appallingly slow. To be fair, can look afresh at what we can do to challenge NHS this problem has dogged not just the coalition Government, England to fulfil its obligations. I hope the National but successive Governments. Audit Office will take a look at how successive Governments I ask this question: what is the common factor? The have attempted to engage the NHS with the carers common factor is the institution we are using to direct agenda. the money, which is the NHS. It does not see carers as I want to finish by talking briefly about the Care Bill. significantly important contributors to it, and therefore It is no small thing that this is the first ever Government it does not see this money as worth spending on them. Bill to provide for carers’ rights. Until now, the cause of That has to change. carers has been advanced by private Members’ Bills. Let me place on the record my appreciation for the work of Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I the late Malcolm Wicks, whose Carers (Recognition acknowledge the right hon. Gentleman’s efforts when in and Services) Act 1995 was a landmark in the rights of government, and I agree that this issue has dogged carers and a fitting legacy for such a thoughtful and successive Governments. I wonder whether we have generous Member of this House. For the first time, the reached the stage where we have to give some clear Care Bill enshrines in legislation carers’ rights to an statutory rights to carers in respect of respite care, assessment of their needs and, importantly, establishes because whatever organisation has the budget, it does a duty to meet those needs which are eligible. It also not seem able to recognise that this is an essential need establishes clearly the need to consult and involve carers if a person is going to continue to be a carer. Would the in decisions about the care of those they care for. right hon. Gentleman entertain that approach? Although the Care Bill is hugely welcome, inevitably there are gaps and unintended consequences that must Paul Burstow: To be honest, in this area the NHS is be addressed if all carers are to get the support they are probably drinking in the last-chance saloon. If we do entitled to. Following the Government’s welcome not see progress, legislation may be necessary. There is announcement last week of their intention to amend another way in which the money could, and should in the Children and Families Bill to ensure that the rights future, be earmarked for this purpose. There have been of young carers are as strong as those proposed for transfers from the NHS to local authorities for the adult carers, we must see the necessary changes to it and support of social care more generally, and in some local the Care Bill, and ensure that the rights of parent carers authority areas that has happened with the carers break of disabled children, which have so far been neglected in money as well; it has been transferred. It has not both Bills, are not allowed to fall through the cracks. happened everywhere, however, and I think it should now become mandatory, so this money gets spent for I look forward to colleagues’ contributions and hearing the purpose the Government said in their spending them draw on their experience of engaging with carers review it was for. That is a perfectly reasonable thing to in their constituencies. I know from talking and listening expect, and the Government need to reflect on three to carers, and from tweeting about carers’ issues, the years of this money not getting where it needed to be, genuine and palpable outrage they feel because all too after a number of years of that under the last Government often they are overlooked and under-supported. We as well. need to change that. The Government are making good progress, but more still needs to be done. A survey by Carers UK found that in one in five cases where a person who was receiving care from family or friends was admitted to hospital as an emergency, that 11.36 am could have been prevented if the carer had received more respite care and support. This makes big differences Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): financially to the NHS. It uses resources better, and that The number of carers is growing, as is the impact of is why it beggars belief that the NHS has not yet made caring on the lives and health of carers. The right hon. sufficient progress, with its partners in local government, Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) has to improve access to breaks for carers. touched on some of those issues, but I will go further. 1075 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1076

[Barbara Keeley] to have a carers’ assessment, that had most often been prompted by a referral from a GP. As the right hon. Analysis by Carers UK of data published from the Member for Sutton and Cheam says, 70% of cancer 2011 census has shown that the number of carers has carers surveyed had come into contact with a GP, increased substantially, by 11%, since 2001, and there doctor or nursing staff, but they are in the health are 35% more carers over the age of 65. We know that world—the NHS world—not the local authority world. carers often combine paid work with raising their own Very few of them have contact with local authority children, as well as caring for other family members. In staff. fact, one in four women and one in six men aged 50 to I think I met the same people at the event as the right 64 have caring responsibilities for family members who hon. Gentleman, because I met John and Karen, who are older or disabled. If we think about that for a were each caring for a spouse with Parkinson’s. We have moment, we start to realise the difficulties. Of course, already heard some of the points that those carers many of us know people in that situation, or may be in made, but John said: it ourselves. Some 3 million carers juggle caring with paid work, so it is not surprising to learn that full-time “In more than 30 years caring for my wife, my won GP has carers are more than twice as likely to be in poor health never asked how I am. He provides excellent support for my wife, as people without caring responsibilities. but has never asked me how I am coping as her carer”. Given all these stresses, carers should be getting Karen cares for her husband, who has Parkinson’s and advice and information to help them care, but it is was diagnosed only shortly after they were married. She becoming ever clearer that they are not. During the says: recent carers week, to which the right hon. Gentleman “I gave up work to help support him. I’ve never been told referred, Members met carers to find out about their about a carer’s assessment nor has my GP asked how I am. It’s as issues. Last week I went to a speed networking event, as if you are invisible.” I think it is called, here in the House, at which I met six Parkinson’s is a long-term condition, but despite the carers. Two were carers of family members with cancer, fact that they might be caring for many years, only one two had cared for a partner or family member at the end in 10 Parkinson’s carers have been offered a carers’ of their life, and two were carers of spouses with assessment. Parkinson’s UK tells us that most are full-time Parkinson’s. Despite the differences in their caring, the carers, caring for someone for more than 50 hours a one thing they shared was not having been given the week—even up to 24 hours a day as the Parkinson’s information, advice and support they needed to be progresses. Such carers are those most in need of advice, carers. As the right hon. Gentleman touched on to an support and respite care or breaks. extent, Macmillan Cancer Support tells us that carers of people with cancer come into contact most with That all matters because the Care Bill puts great health professionals, by whom they need to be identified emphasis on carers’ assessments rather than the and signposted. However, 95% of cancer carers are not identification of carers and the need to signpost them to getting a carers assessment. sources of advice and support. Last September, I introduced It was revealing to talk to carers of people with a private Member’s Bill, the Social Care (Local Sufficiency) cancer about how this had affected them. Cancer patients, and Identification of Carers Bill. Three sponsors of as we know, may have long days of treatment in hospital, that Bill are in the Chamber. The Government, sadly, yet no one had told the carers I spoke to that a discount did not support my Bill and their Back-Bench Members was available on expensive hospital car parking costs. talked it out. The clauses on the identification of carers One of the carers had to buy a hospital bed for use at would have ensured that NHS bodies had the procedures home by her daughter, yet she was given no advice on in place to identify carers, promote their health and where to buy one. well-being and ensure they receive information and advice. Those are the exact areas from which the carers Similar issues crop up for carers of people with a to whom I have talked would benefit. As I said during terminal illness, but those carers are also juggling with the debate on the Bill, I believe that the key focus in the knowledge that they only have a limited time with identifying carers should be those with the heaviest the person for whom they are caring. Carol and Lucy caring commitments. were the two carers I met. One had cared for a partner and the other for her mother, both through to the end of The 2001 census found that 10% of all UK carers were their lives. Both said how much financial hardship they caring for more than 50 hours a week. By 2011, that had had to accept to undertake that caring. The carer of figure had more than doubled to 22%. It is worth noting, her terminally ill mother could only get unpaid leave as I said during the debate on my Bill, that the proportion from her job and took it for 11 months. She lost her flat of carers in Salford who provide full-time care at that because she could no longer afford to pay the rent. It level has been higher for all of the last decade. It has not seems wrong that carers have to struggle on unpaid just changed, and I am sure that it is related to health leave while caring for someone who is terminally ill. She inequalities. never told her mother that the leave was unpaid or of Two wards in my constituency have high numbers of the difficulties she was having. people caring for people with stroke disease, heart disease Carers of people with cancer and of people who are or cancer, which means that they have the heaviest terminally ill both cited the same issue: as carers, they caring commitments. We know that full-time care can were mainly ignored by the health professionals they take a toll on the carer’s health, and the health needs of encountered. They rarely asked them if they were coping those carers must be recognised. We know that those and they did not signpost them to carers centres or caring for more than 50 hours a week are twice as likely carers associations for help and advice. In the cases of to suffer ill health and that those caring for a person the very few carers of people with cancer who managed with dementia or stroke diseases are even more at risk. 1077 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1078

Early identification and support for those carers would The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman mean that they can maintain their health and sustain Lamb): The hon. Lady said that we have so far ignored their caring role better. what she has been arguing for in terms of action. I just The Carers Trust has a centre in Salford with a wanted to reassure her that I have absolutely not ignored project to identify carers within primary care and at the that. I have said, I believe in the debate on the Queen’s Salford Royal hospital. Let me take this opportunity to Speech, that I would seek to meet the Minister dealing pay tribute to that centre for its work in identifying with the Children and Families Bill, and I have done carers, which it has been doing within primary care for that. I take the point the hon. Lady makes very seriously many years. GPs and primary health care teams in my and I want to see action to address the concerns that she constituency have started to tackle the task of identifying and others have raised. carers, but there is much more to do. The manager of the centre tells me that having established a network of Barbara Keeley: I thank the Minister for that point, links within GP practices to identify carers, local GPs but I have to tell him that he and the children’s Minister made 300 referrals last year, but we have 20,000 carers have to start to accept that making reassuring noises in Salford, 5,000 of whom will be caring at the heaviest and having meetings is not enough. levels. So we need to ensure that health bodies take action that meets the scale of the task of identifying Paul Burstow: The hon. Lady is absolutely right to be carers and referring them to advice and support. pushing this issue forcefully. We were given a commitment Young carers are the most hidden of all carers, and by the Under-Secretary of State for Education, the hon. my Bill would have required local authorities to have a Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson) last policy in place for identifying young carers and providing week that amendments would be drafted, and presumably support for pupils in schools who are young carers. It they will be tabled in the House of Lords. It would would also have placed a duty on colleges of further helpful for us to know, and to hear from this Minister, and higher education to identify students who are carers that the Government will shortly be publishing the and have in place policies to support them. Young adult amendments that will be made to the Care Bill as well as carers at university or college have to balance giving those that will be made to the Children and Families care with their academic studies and learning. Some do Bill. that by caring at a distance, returning home at weekends or holidays to provide care, whereas others have to Barbara Keeley: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for balance care and study by continuing to live at home that point. I am, however, going to push the matter with and travelling to their local university so that they can the Minister because there was an opportunity in this maintain their regular caring roles. Hardly any of the regard. New clauses were moved during the remaining carers I have talked about in my speech are in contact stages on the Children and Families Bill last week that with local authorities or are likely to have had a carers were copies of clauses from my Bill, and they would assessment from a local authority. So the duty on carers have required those bodies that I talked about to have assessments in the Care Bill would not help the carers I policies in place. We are not talking about a large have met recently—the carers of people with cancer or financial commitment; we are talking about bodies of people who are terminally ill. And, as I have said, the having policies in place. Our schools, our colleges and local authorities are reaching only one in 10 of carers of our higher and further education institutions should people with Parkinson’s disease. have policies in place to recognise young carers, but up Young carers are also not being reached or supported and down the country they do not have those. The adequately. The Carers Trust feels that the current law disappointment that organisations outside here that surrounding identification, assessment and support for support young carers will have felt results from the fact young carers is complex and incoherent. Young carers that the debate was managed last week so that those are vulnerable and compared with other children they new clauses were not reached. That does not show good are at risk of poorer outcomes if they take on excessive faith, and if I were a member of the coalition of and inappropriate caring roles because the adult’s needs organisations that support young carers, I would look are not being met. We know that inappropriate caring at that and say, “I don’t know what the Government are roles have an adverse effect on a child’s educational and going to do.” The Minister will have to accept that they emotional development. are still disappointing people who have not been protected sufficiently by the law. The current position we have reached on that issue is most unsatisfactory. In its evidence to the Joint Committee I conclude by touching quickly on the financial context on the draft Care and Support Bill, the Law Commission of social care and how it affects carers. Giving carers made it clear that it felt that young carers should be rights in the Care Bill is indeed a positive step, but the given the same rights as adult carers, so that the Bill Local Government Association reminds us that the became a single statute covering carers. Yet, young Government’s austerity programme and the need for carers still do not have the same rights as adult carers in further savings do not fit well with the aspirations of the Care Bill and there is no mention of them at all in the Bill. Councils have had to reduce their adult social the Children and Families Bill. That is not acceptable. care budgets by 20% over the past three years. At least a The care services Minister and the children’s Minister quarter of those cuts are from reductions in services have been making reassuring noises about meetings and increases in charges. Almost 90% of councils only they have had to discuss this and about their intentions, meet needs that are at the substantial or critical threshold. but they have so far ignored a cross-party consensus Staff at our local carers centre told me that carers are among MPs and peers that they should act to improve being affected by the bedroom tax, the increase in the young carers’ lives. Young carers should not be left with value of non-dependent deductions, fewer sources of unequal rights compared with adult carers. grant funding, and reductions to care packages that 1079 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1080

[Barbara Keeley] A growing recognition of the number of carers in the country is evidenced by the fact that each year carers appear to be driven by cutting costs, not by changes in week gathers further and greater momentum. Carers week need. That is particularly true where they are caring for took place between 10 and 16 June. Alongside Carers somebody with a learning or physical disability. Worries UK seven other national charity partners—Age UK, continue into the future when the change from disability Carers Trust, Independent Age, Macmillan Cancer Support, living allowance to the personal independence payment Marie Curie Cancer Care, the MS Society and Parkinson’s starts to affect carers. The Government’s own impact UK—came together to celebrate the contribution that assessment published in February indicated that almost carers make and to signpost them to the advice, information 10,000 fewer carers will be entitled to carers allowance and support that they need. by 2015 as a knock-on consequence of the loss of This year’s carers week was the largest ever, with disability benefits following the introduction of PIP. more than 2,600 groups registering to take part and Carers UK has calculated that this represents a £31 million more than 10,000 events up and down the country—that cut in support to carers. We should bear in mind that if is a lot of events. Those organising events included those carers were left unable to care as a result of not carers’ groups, service providers, local authorities, hospitals, having access to those carers benefits, replacing the care domiciliary care services, hospices and GP services. that they provide would cost at least £300 million in Events in Oxfordshire included Carers Oxfordshire—the replacement adult social care services. That is a serious umbrella group for carers in the county—running outreach point. events and advice stalls at local Sainsbury’s, Asda and This morning I asked a question about the loss of Waitrose stores. Last Friday, I visited an Oxfordshire £28.3 billion of income for disabled people over the next branch of Sainsbury’s and lots of people came up and five years through the combination of the welfare changes asked questions, which was fantastic, because people do being made. We must take on board the fact that that not always recognise that they are carers. Outreach loss of income will hit the carers of those disabled events to identify carers also took place in GP surgeries people. Carers, as we learned during carers week, are and town and church halls across the county. prepared to care. We must do better in supporting them. In Parliament, there was a “Question Time” event in Portcullis House with the Minister of State, Department of Health, the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman 11.51 am Lamb), who is responsible for care and support. The Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): It is good that the event brought together the Association of Directors of House has an opportunity today to debate the needs of Adult Social Care, Skills for Care, the Royal College of carers. As co-chair of the all-party carers group, I General Practitioners and Public Health England, alongside welcome this debate. It provides us with an opportunity the campaign’s charity partners and carers, to debate to be the collective voice for the 6.5 million carers in the how the NHS and social care can better support carers. UK. Key issues discussed included the challenge of identifying In the run-up to carers week Carers UK published a and supporting carers when many people do not recognise report entitled “Prepared to Care?”which had six important themselves as carers, and how to ensure that carers are recommendations from carers about what they need to represented in the new NHS structures nationally and help them manage their caring role. They need better locally. Like all those taking part in today’s debate, I am public understanding and recognition of carers. Carers sure, I was pleased when more than 100 parliamentary should have access to information and the right support colleagues attended a parliamentary photocall in support from the beginning. It is important to remember that of carers week. As the previous speaker mentioned, every day 6,000 people take on new caring responsibilities there was a useful speed networking event that enabled in the UK, and from day one they need access to the MPs to meet carers and hear their stories directly. right support, advice and information. Every day across Interestingly and usefully, this year’s carers week saw the country there are people whose loved ones have a increased engagement and involvement of employers in stroke or discover that they have been diagnosed with the campaign, which is important because, as Carers Parkinson’s or with age-related dementia, and they need UK polling earlier this year showed, 2.3 million people support from day one. have given up work at some point to care for loved ones, Professionals need to understand the role of carers and census data published in May show that more than and share information, decision making and planning 3 million people are juggling work and care. That is a with them. In her speech the hon. Member for Worsley huge number of people, so getting employers involved and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) made the point in understanding the needs of carers is very important. about the GP who treated a patient for years but never I am glad to say that Sainsbury’s has continued its asked about the carer. Carers can no longer be treated sponsorship of the employers for carers campaign, with as invisible. They need access to high quality practical nearly all its 1,200 stores running events, linking up and emotional support and information, as well as with local groups and organisations to raise awareness breaks from caring. The point made by the hon. Member of the support on offer to carers. Crucially, Sainsbury for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) about respite delivered information and advice not only to its customers care is crucial. When Carers Oxfordshire surveyed carers but to staff with caring responsibilities. in Oxfordshire last week about the issue that caused I am also glad to say that Government Departments, them greatest concern, not surprisingly access to respite such as the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the care came very near the top of the list. Carers need Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, flexible working practices, understanding from employers, held carers week sessions for their staff, as did a number financial support, and a fair and easy-to-navigate welfare of private organisations, as the hon. Member for Stretford system. and Urmston (Kate Green) mentioned. Those included 1081 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1082 the Michelin Tyre Company, KPMG, HSBC, British The two colleagues who have spoken in the debate Gas, Northamptonshire police, the UK Border Agency, have already set out the broad context of the research BT plc, Credit Suisse, Transport for London, the Financial done in carers week: about three quarters of carers felt Ombudsman Service and the London fire brigade. There unprepared for their caring role; four in 10 had reduced is growing recognition from employers in the private their working hours because of caring; nearly a third and public sectors that they have a duty of care to those had missed out on the chance of promotion; almost of their employees who are carers. In Oxfordshire, half had used savings to pay basic bills, such as those employers for carers, in partnership with Oxfordshire for heating and food; and more than a quarter had county council and Carers UK, launched a new taken out a loan or fallen into debt as a result of caring. membership hub for local employers large and small, I am conscious that many colleagues wish to speak. I which will give local employers the opportunity to share will use the time remaining to highlight some specific good practice in supporting carers to juggle work and concerns raised by Carers Oxfordshire. In anticipation caring and to raise awareness of the business benefits of of today’s debate, I asked Carers Oxfordshire about the keeping carers in the work force. concerns of local people. Unsurprisingly, there was a huge response from carers. I think that there is a feeling Kate Green: It is encouraging to hear that list of the among many carers that one of the most important many employers who want to support the carers in their things is having their voice heard. The sorts of points work force, and I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman raised were as follows: says about spreading good practice among employers. “Carers would like to hear greater clarification about the Does he agree that the large employers have a particular implementation of the Care and Support Bill along the following role to play in working with their supply chains to lines: ‘Carers are very pleased to see the rights of all carers to have spread good practice? an assessment so clearly defined in law. The concern is that the regulations are written in the spirit of the legislation i.e. of Sir Tony Baldry: That is an extremely good point. widening the access to help and support for carers. The national eligibility framework needs to reflect this and ensure that the These things are organic. A few years ago big employers threshold of eligible needs is not set too high. The risk is that local such as Sainsbury’s would not necessarily have been authorities will use the framework to restrict “eligible needs” on involved in that way. Having been involved in carers the basis of limited resources, which could mean many carers will policy over the years, what I find encouraging is that not be any better off in terms of the help and support they each year a further step is achieved. receive. We must ensure there is not a postcode lottery in the way the framework is operated by local authorities.’” Barbara Keeley: I had not intended to make this point On respite for carers, respondents commented that earlier, but I will make it now because so much has been it is said about employers. The Independent Parliamentary “too expensive and too hard to get currently as care homes often Standards Authority does not allow MPs’ staff to take don’t ‘allow’ bookings to be made well enough in advance to compassionate leave; it allows MPs to give only sick allow carers to book holidays. There is very little financial help leave or maternity leave, as I discovered late last year. for ‘stay at home’ carers. What about care vouchers similar to Given all the good work that has been done with child care vouchers being issued, or tax relief on care costs?” employers, that is an issue the whole House should take With regard to GPs, the identification of carers is a forward. really important issue. There “needs to be more emphasis from GPs and a greater recognition Sir Tony Baldry: One of the non-executive members of carers’ contribution and value, including their health and of the IPSA board will shortly be work-shadowing me wellbeing.” for a day, so I will certainly raise that valid point with Another point was this: her. I will give her lunch, out of my own taxed income, “Poor quality of care provided by care agencies is a huge along with other colleagues who might want to talk concern. Quality, reliability and accountability are ongoing concerns with her, and the hon. Lady would be very welcome. I for carers.” think that the board’s non-executive members have to On carers in employment, concerns were expressed take some responsibility for the way IPSA functions. about the financial cost of care and the impact on those who have to give up work or reduce their working Norman Lamb: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is hours. not simply about employers having a duty to look after employees who have caring responsibilities; it is also The respondents continue with an interesting point: about enlightened self-interest? It is an enormous own “Military carers and their family can suffer a significant goal when so many employers lose really good and disadvantage, to include homelessness due to ‘entitlement’ issues experienced employees, who could otherwise contribute around properties when they take on caring responsibilities. Lack so much to a business, because they have caring of recognition from the military.” responsibilities. It is in their interests to keep those They continue: employees. “Carers want to see social care and nursing care fully combined as one discipline. As far as they are concerned they are one and Sir Tony Baldry: I entirely agree and hope that all the same thing. During one carer’s experience in the weeks prior employers see the enlightened self-interest in looking to her mother’s hospital admission she had had three different after carers. I think that there is a general recognition teams visiting her throughout the day. They spent more time completing forms and leaving files than anything else. It was that everyone in the system has to start thinking about tiring and draining for her to have so many different people carers, particularly those who are caught in the sandwich coming and going. Full integration of the two disciplines is key generation and have to look after children and older for continuity, to prevent duplication of effort and reduce needless relatives. bureaucracy.” 1083 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1084

[Sir Tony Baldry] but a rewarding career for life. If we as a society want to demand the highest standards of care for ourselves Finally, they state: when we get old, we should at the very least be prepared “Look at simplification of forms for applying for carers allowance to pay a living wage for those who seek to deliver it. and attendance allowance.” That should happen alongside a concerted effort to It is really good news that the Care Bill will consolidate improve skills across the care industry, investing in and simplify decades of social care legislation in England. training and development to make the sector one in We must not lose sight of the fact that it will include which people aspire to work. It could be a huge source significant and welcome new rights for carers to improve of employment for the future—it is not possible to access to carers assessments and new duties on local outsource care in the same way as we outsource other councils to provide care services. I share the concerns of industries to another country—but I do not think that the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara we even have a strategy to get us to that point. Keeley) about young carers, but I am confident that Secondly, I want to discuss the impact on non- those on the Treasury Bench have taken on those concerns professional carers of the current pressures in the care and will table amendments to the Bill in the Lords to system. In Tameside, approximately 2 million hours of cover them. unpaid care are given every year. If purchased from a We are making good progress. The direction of travel paid carer, that would cost in the region of £22.5 million. is a good one, but we have to recognise that a huge That puts a high strain on carers, as has been mentioned. amount of distance still has to be covered if we are to be In Tameside, people are substantially more likely to be proper advocates and protectors of the millions of in ill health if they are carers, and that is in an area that carers in the UK who selflessly give themselves to look already has poor public health. We should all take the after a loved one. time to recognise the stressful and important work that carers do. 12.6 pm Several of my constituents who are dedicated carers Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): for the people they love have told me that they receive Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak no recognition for the valuable work they do. That is in this important debate. I congratulate the right hon. why debates such as this are important. Many of them and hon. Members listed on the Order Paper on securing it. have had to give up their jobs, and in several cases the person for whom they are caring feels responsible for I want to make a relatively short contribution to that, even though it is no fault of theirs. place on the record my view that the work that carers do for little or often no reward should never be underestimated The burden on many of those who care for loved or forgotten. They provide care and compassion of the ones has increased since the Government introduced highest level in the most challenging of circumstances. their welfare reforms in April. In Tameside, increasing numbers of carers are reporting stress due to financial I believe we need a far bigger and bolder response to worries. The Government’s impact assessment into the meet the challenges of our increasingly ageing population. changes to disability living allowance and carer’s allowance We need to recognise that in many circumstances a and the introduction of the personal independence complicated mix of care is delivered by a combination payment shows that almost 10,000 fewer carers will be of professional carers, family members or both. Carers entitled to carer’s allowance. That is a massive blow for need more support and that can only come from the those who care full time. Locally, the number of people Government. I want to address two issues in order to who are seeking support to complete their benefit forms make that point. is increasing. How can it be right that we are penalising First, we should acknowledge the importance of creating these people for the work that they do? Where are the a care industry that people aspire to work in by Government to support these people when they so appropriately rewarding the work they do. Secondly, desperately need and deserve it? the Government need to recognise further the work of To conclude, I welcome the principle in the Care Bill thousands of unpaid carers up and down the country. of capping care costs. I do not think that it is set at the The demographic make-up of our population is obviously right level, but it is a welcome first step in reducing the changing, which is already starting to stress our care burden of care. However, I believe that we need to system. That is happening against the backdrop of explore a genuinely integrated health and social care large-scale cuts across the system. According to the system. That would not only help people to stay independent Local Government Association, local authorities have in their own homes for as long as possible, but reduce had to cut their adult social care budgets by 20% over the burden on family members who deliver care each the past three years, which means that in many places, and every day. That is the challenge. I hope that we will such as Tameside, the metropolitan borough that my see a developing political consensus, with Members on constituency covers, the amount of respite care available both sides of the House moving towards such a system, is being severely squeezed. I have seen some appalling so that we can enshrine it, secure it and give people the cases in my surgeries—the kinds of cases that stay on system that they deserve and need for the years ahead. my mind and often prevent me from sleeping at night because of the situation that many people face when the care they need is being taken away. 12.11 pm Against the backdrop of cuts, many carers work day Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I thank the in, day out, delivering excellent care but for poor pay, Backbench Business Committee for giving us this timely whether they work in a residential home or in a person’s opportunity to talk about the role of carers in society. home. Many of them are paid little more than the All the organisations that the hon. Member for Banbury minimum wage for a job that should not just be a job, (Sir Tony Baldry) talked about were UK-wide organisations. 1085 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1086

If I may, I will talk from a Welsh perspective, representing sections: “Who cares?”, “Carers and the law”, “Meeting as I do the great Ceredigion constituency, although I the needs of carers” and a test. That concept was appreciate that the Minister will not be able to address initiated by Dudley metropolitan borough council and all the matters that are rightly devolved to our National has been adopted by 40 local authorities across the UK. Assembly in Cardiff. It is an excellent way to prepare people for the role of As we have heard, this year’s carers week seeks to carer. It is just one small tool that can raise awareness. highlight how those in the UK’s carer population are Many of my constituents are online and can access such coping with their role as a carer and how well the courses. Government are supporting them in that role. That is a The council is holding various events across the county huge issue and it is of growing importance. There are focused on the “Prepared to Care?” theme. It has a currently 6.5 million carers and that is predicted to grow widely distributed and widely read newsletter to update to 9 million carers in 25 years’ time. We need to ensure Ceredigion’s carers if they cannot attend the events. that people in the wider population are prepared for The authority has also taken the opportunity of their future caring responsibilities. carers week to promote the “Carers Count, Count Me I represent a rural constituency and we talk a lot in In” campaign, which seeks to register the 8,603 carers in mid and west Wales about rural isolation. If we add to the authority who were identified by the 2011 census that the isolation that carers experience, it is a highly data, only a small proportion of whom are officially toxic mix and a huge challenge. That is coupled with the registered. The aim is to get all carers registered with the challenge of identifying carers, which the hon. Member Ceredigion carers development office. The sound logic for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) spoke behind that is that the more carers who are registered, about. I represent a huge tract of rural Wales that has the stronger the voice they will have in our area and scattered and sparse communities, including 147 villages. with the local authority when campaigning for resources That makes it even more challenging to identify people from the Welsh Assembly Government. It will also and to build the networks that my right hon. Friend the ensure that carers are recognised and valued, and that Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) talked they have better services to equip them for the role. This about. year, the staff of the county council who juggle work Ceredigion county council is attempting to rise to and caring responsibilities, many of whom did not that challenge. It is taking part in this year’s carers realise that they were carers, were targeted and a number week. The carers officer, Heather West, has informed did join the register. me of an internal campaign that it has run to highlight A fantastic partnership has emerged between our the change in the known number of carers in the county. carers development office and Aberystwyth university. There was a 10% increase between 2001 and 2011 to They are researching the barriers and challenges in 8,603 carers. There is also a huge number of people who relation to carers needs assessments from the carer’s provide care in excess of 50 hours a week. The numbers point of view. The research aims to highlight the support have grown and are set to grow further. The challenge in and advice that is available to carers and hopes to make rural areas is to build networks so that we can initiate the system more accessible. Critically, it will be independent the support that is needed. research so that it can present an accurate and unbiased I am sure that hon. Members have read the Carers picture of what life is like for carers in our county. UK report. That research shows that seven out of Aside from preparing us to care, carers in my constituency 10 carers in the UK state that they were not prepared also raised the issue of the spare room subsidy, or for all aspects of caring. Eight out of 10 were not bedroom tax, during carers week. The carers office of prepared for the emotional impact of caring. Eight out Ceredigion county council has spoken to a large number of 10 were not prepared for the changes to their lifestyle of worried carers who are having to deal with new because of a new caring role. Seven out of 10 carers payment requirements even though they require a second were not prepared for the change in the relationship room because of their extensive caring demands. A with the person for whom they care. I met somebody in number of them are going through the appeals process, my surgery a few weeks ago who, in the wake of his having already applied for discretionary housing payments. golden wedding anniversary, received the bombshell Although the local officers are doing their utmost to that his wife had a terminal condition. That couple had support carers, I think that the rules are inappropriate envisaged having a parity of caring roles in their old for such constituents. Above all, the stress caused by age. To have that responsibility shift in such a dramatic such matters and—to be frank—the stress that a number way to the husband was a huge shock. Seven out of of welfare reforms have created for carers in our community, 10 carers were not prepared for the financial impact of gives me a great deal of anxiety. their caring role. As we have heard, 6,000 people take In July, Carers Wales will hold a number of local on new caring responsibilities every day. sessions across Wales to meet local carers and try to The landscape has changed. In a previous life, 25 years allay some of their fears. Concerns have also been ago, my first job was down the corridor in the House of expressed about the attitude of banks to Court of Lords. I worked with pioneers in the carers movement, Protection enduring power of attorney, and the mismatch such as Baroness Nancy Seear and Baroness Jill Pitkeathley, between the banks’ policy and its delivery on the ground who were trying to get official recognition for the term has caused a huge number of practical difficulties for “carer” in statute. They achieved a great deal and we carers. The Government can assist our carers in all have achieved a great deal, but there is a long way to go. those areas, and alleviate—at least in part—some of the In January this year, Ceredigion county council launched stresses and strains that they experience. its e-learning carer awareness course, which can be done As I have said, the debate has moved on and more online. As is necessary in west Wales, it is fully bilingual. people in the country are fully aware of what being a I took it this week. The course consists of four main carer means—MPs certainly are from our casework 1087 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1088

[Mr Mark Williams] disabilities. They stay overnight and therefore need a room for themselves. Under the Government’s legislation, every week and the people who come to our surgeries, however, and the tax we all deplore—the bedroom and a new role needs to be pursued with employers and tax—we find that it might not be possible for them to in the world of work. I wish the Government well in continue doing that job. It would also be hard for their what they are doing, and I hope they will look at what I clients to find a smaller house that can be adapted in the believe have been some helpful precedents across the way their current houses are, quite apart from the border in Wales. problems and upset that such a move would mean.

12.21 pm In 2003, a report by Mencap showed that eight out of 10 carers were at breaking point. Its 2006 report showed Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) that the number had fallen to seven out of 10, but new (Lab): I congratulate the right hon. Member for Sutton research indicates that it is now back to eight out of 10. and Cheam (Paul Burstow) and his colleagues on initiating I do not believe that we in Parliament distinguish ourselves this debate, and we have heard some interesting and if we allow such conditions to continue throughout our well-informed speeches. country and in individual homes and communities in Some of my colleagues referred—understandably—to our constituencies. legislation, and they have high hopes of the Bill currently The vast majority of carers are not being offered the going through Parliament. A long time ago I had the short breaks they desperately need. One carer stated: privilege of piloting through Parliament the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) “When you care for someone 24 hours per day and you know Act 1986. It was widely welcomed, but between then it’s going to be for ever, sometimes a short break is your only hope.” and now I discovered that although we can have an Act of Parliament, if it is not fully implemented it makes I am sorry to say that we do not often deliver that. Of much less of an impression on people’s problems than the few carers who access short breaks, most do not feel we would like. that the services are adequate, and seven out of 10 say For example, section 8 of that Act dealt with the duty that they do not receive services that fully meet their of local authorities to take the abilities of carers into family’s needs. account. I am sorry to say that I have not seen great I acknowledge the Government’s recent investment enthusiasm among local authorities to implement that of £1.2 billion in services for people caring for children provision, although there are some excellent exceptions. and adults, but according to Mencap—a well-informed When legislation is passed, including the 1986 Act, we organisation that does work on the ground—there have all have responsibility to work with carers organisations, been no improvements in the well-being of family carers which do a great job, and with carers in our constituencies, a decade after the issue was first highlighted. to ensure that the wishes of the House are implemented by health authorities, local authorities, the Department I speak as a former councillor and former president for Work and Pensions, and all those who have an of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, but I influence on the lives of carers. am disappointed with the role of local councils. Many are failing to meet their duty to assess needs and regularly Together with Lord Brian Rix, I co-chair the all-party review care arrangements. Despite the role of local group on learning disability, and we are worried about authorities—I do not mention health boards, although the issue of carers and return to it often. We recognise, they are important too—the startling facts are that six as other hon. Members have done, the hard work that out of 10 carers have never had a carer’s assessment to carers do every day for the most vulnerable people, and identify their needs. Worse than that, two out of 10 said that often their voices are not heard. That is largely that they had been refused an assessment altogether. because their role in looking after young people—or Mencap says that after 10 years that is simply unacceptable, young people looking after elderly people—is a 24-hour, but I would put it much more strongly: it is a blight on seven-day-a-week job. all of us. As colleagues have said, caring is a stressful job and people receive few breaks to support what they are doing. The big issue is that families simply do not know how In many cases, their commitment to the role is absolutely to access those vital short breaks. Three out of 10 outstanding, touching and—as colleagues have said— family carers have never had a short break and do not deserving of statutory support that must be fully know how to access them. Much more must be done. implemented. This is not my most important point, but The fundamental failure of some local authorities to carers have drawn my attention to the economics of provide information about what is available is not acceptable, what is happening, and it is right to mention that even from a statutory point of view. Carers are being according to Carers UK, voluntary acts by carers save left in the dark, without support and on their own. the UK public purse £119 billion per year. Do we not Local authority spending is in decline. According to have a responsibility to respond? I believe we do. Mencap, spending by local authorities on children’s short break services peaked in 2010-11, but 63% of Let me explain why short breaks are important. Family local authorities reduced this expenditure in 2011-12. In carers need time off and a break from the constant the current economic climate, money must be saved—we work of caring. Some families access short break centres understand that—but not on the back of those who or schemes that involve placements with families. Others have already sacrificed so much for the most vulnerable, receive direct payment to purchase their own support—I including family members and others. very much welcome that and was involved in that legislation. As hon. Members have indicated, the current review of Spending on adult services has also fallen consistently welfare has had many effects. My niece and nephew are over the past three years, with 54% of local authorities carers at weekends and look after people with learning reducing their spending on short breaks for adults in 1089 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1090

2012-13 compared with the previous year. We need to When attending the events in my constituency, I was listen to what carers take the time to tell us. One carer struck by a fundamental problem touched on by the felt “absolutely devastated” and continued: hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams): many carers “I have sobbed over the way” do not identify themselves as such. I spent some time in the council the lobby of the Royal Cornwall hospital trust alongside “has informed us of their decision to close this wonderful care volunteers and care support workers from the Cornwall home.” Rural Community Council. They would approach people I say again that we cannot balance the books on the who were clearly carers—elderly people pushing people in backs of hard-working people or build a better society wheelchairs, coming into hospital, attending appointments by disregarding those who give the most. or leaving hospital—and ask them, “Are you a carer?” They would ask them very nicely and in a friendly So what needs to be done? We need substantial and manner, with a view to engaging with them to ensure meaningful action from the Government, local authorities, they were getting the help to which they were entitled, health bodies and service providers. No family carer but the people would hurry on saying, “No, I’m not a should be left to reach breaking point and every family carer.” that needs a short break should get one. Each carer should have their needs identified and should not feel If, however, we asked whether they looked after that they are alone and without support. Money that is someone—a husband, wife, child or loved one—they intended for short breaks should be spent on providing replied yes. If we asked them, “Do you regularly provide short-term breaks. We need services that are person-centred support perhaps through cooking meals or going and able to meet the differing care needs of the people shopping?”, they replied yes. We need to think about who use them. Information about local need for short that a bit more in our desire to find out who carers are breaks should be collected more consistently, distributed and ensure they get the support they need, whether accordingly and used to inform what services are made from the NHS, councils, employers or the voluntary available to all the public. sector and wider community. We need to think about I end with a quote provided by Mencap. This parent how we frame the conversation to enable people to said: identify themselves as carers, because most of the people “I love my children and that keeps me alive but I’m worn I spoke to said, “Well, I’m just doing what any family down…When I can’t cope I self-harm as I have to carry on but it’s member would do. This is what families do.” If somebody too much to handle at times.” is ill or has a disability or care need, families gather Carers’ voices must be heard, their needs must be met round. I took that from my meetings last week, and it is and they must never feel defenceless and alone. particularly important in literature. Central Government produce a lot of literature, and a lot of benefits leaflets 12.33 pm go out through the Department for Work and Pensions and throughout the health service, so we should think Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I am about the terms we use and how we can engage with pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this debate. people in that literature. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), who has made a Another thing I reflected on after speaking with huge contribution not only today but throughout his carers last week—this came out in the reports—was the parliamentary career—as a Minister and now from the evidence on the number of people who gave up work to Back Benches—in raising these issues. care. This can have a detrimental impact on the carer: I had the great privilege of being parliamentary they miss the social contact provided at work and can ambassador for carers week for the Conservative party, feel quite isolated and often trapped at home, especially along with my coalition partner, my right hon. Friend in remote rural areas, such as those in my constituency, the Member for Sutton and Cheam. Rather than trying where it is difficult to use public transport and connect to cover what was an encyclopaedic summary of the to wider society. It also has a detrimental impact on issues affecting carers, the excellent research communicated household incomes and pension provision. The main during the week or, indeed, many of the points made by question that Carers UK is asking the whole nation is colleagues on the Opposition Benches, I would instead the right one: are we prepared to care? It is a question like to back up everything that he said in describing so for the whole of society. Are employers prepared to well the challenges and opportunities and summarising provide those flexible working opportunities to enable the Government’s position. I will then make some reflections people both to attend to their caring responsibilities and observations on my time as an ambassador. and to work? I would like to congratulate the organisations that We have to be realistic, however, because many people came together to form carers week, because they achieved are worried about their job at the moment, and so, for something quite remarkable. More than 26,000 fear of losing their job, are unlikely to talk to their organisations across the UK came together and put on employer about the need to work flexible hours. The more than 100,000 events. Why is that important? From Government need to engage with employers—there are the events I attended, I realised it was vital to raise exemplars, such as BT, with a long track record of awareness of the services and financial help available recruiting and retaining older workers and enabling for carers. Like many other Members, I am sure, I often flexible working—about the research and the issues and find in my casework and when visiting organisations in to get them thinking about making it easier for their my constituency that those who most need help are staff to request flexible working. The huge triumph in often the least likely to access it, and we have to work employment in the past century was to enable women to hard to ensure that the legislation, the benefits and the juggle caring responsibilities for children and work. In rights that we provide for in the House get into the this century, as we respond to significant demographic hands of the people who really need it. changes, we need a massive shift to enable workers of all 1091 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1092

[Sarah Newton] have the necessary powers to ensure that where poor commissioning practice is allowing contracting by the ages to combine other caring responsibilities. For older minute, which is resulting in sub-standard care to an people and people with disabilities, that is a very important individual, they can ensure good quality commissioning lesson from carers week. practice in the future. The Joint Committee on the draft Carers told me that even if they wanted to carry on Care and Support Bill has recommended a change in working—if they had the income and were prepared to the law and the Government are doubtful of its need. pay for care, or have a mixture so that they would do Does she agree that the Government need to keep part of the caring but pay for people to come into the thinking about that and perhaps come back with an home to support them, and their loved ones agreed to amendment? that—they were anxious about the quality of the care they would be inviting into their homes. All of us were Sarah Newton: I back what my hon. Friend says. The horrified by recent revelations about some of the carers Joint Committee’s report was excellent and showed going into people’s homes, whether they were paid for Parliament at its best. People with tremendous experience by individuals or local authorities as part of their from the House of Lords and this place worked together domiciliary care service. Until we crack the nut of to scrutinise and improve that excellent Bill. The ensuring that high quality, well-trained and well-paid Government should be commended for introducing it carers are going into people’s homes, people will have a at a time of economic restraint, especially as it has great fear and reluctance to try and combine caring financial consequences: spending more money on responsibilities with employment. supporting carers is a bold thing to do at the moment We find a sad position in too many local authorities. and it underlines the great value we put on carers. I We all understand that councils’ budgets are under a lot back my hon. Friend in his call for an amendment, of pressure. I was a councillor and I know that it is because if local authorities are tempted to avoid doing difficult to balance all the needs of one’s community what we would all regard as the right thing—to look with conflicting demands on what the council should be after the most vulnerable people in our society—we spending its money on. No two people agree on what a need to tighten up the law to remove that temptation council’s priority should be. For me, it is straightforward: from them. a council’s responsibility, like central Government’s I would like to share another issue that was raised in responsibility, is to prioritise the care of the most vulnerable carers week. The strong message from carers was that people in society. However, in contracting for domiciliary they do not always feel involved in the decisions made care, local authorities are cutting their payments so low by professionals about the people they are caring for. that it is difficult for private care providers to provide a The Government have, rightly, enshrined in their health good quality of care while remaining economically and social care reforms the principle that “No decision sustainable. That reduces the options available for the should be taken about me without me.” I would like to vast majority of people who self-fund care. extend that so that “No decision is taken about the person I am caring for without me.” I have heard far too Norman Lamb: I agree very much with the points my many cases, in my own case work and during carers hon. Friend is making. Instead of commissioning on week—particularly from parents caring for children the basis of a quarter of an hour and a race to the with disabilities—where substantial decisions, on whether bottom with the lowest bidder winning the contract, their children should cared for away from their home does she agree that commissioning that provides incentives many hundreds of miles away, were considered without to improve the well-being of the individual being cared proper discussion with the parents. That is absolutely for—maintaining their mobility and improving their wrong. There is a prevalent attitude among some capacity to remain independent—is the way in which professionals that they know best: “Trust me, we know local authorities should be contracting providers of what is best for your child. Trust me, we know what is care at home? best for your wife or your husband.” While I would like to be able to trust all professionals—we think that by Sarah Newton: I absolutely agree that local authorities and large they do have the best interests of people at should be remorselessly focused on the best possible heart—there should be openness and transparency. Carers outcomes for the people they have a duty to provide should be involved in decisions, so that there is a joint care for. They should also understand that while the agreement and an understanding about what is in the vast majority of people are not eligible for local authority best interests of the person being looked after. care, local authorities have a responsibility as market shapers in their localities to ensure that private, third On a more positive note, I would like to share some of and voluntary sector organisations are able to provide the good practice I saw during carers week. I saw great the care services that most people pay for themselves. examples of innovation involving the voluntary sector, By constantly engaging in a race to the bottom, they are in particular. We have talked about statutory provision undermining the ability of those organisations to provide and what employers can do, but broader civil society services to the community. Most private or third sector and the voluntary sector have an enormous role to play domiciliary care providers need a certain amount of too. I would like to share two examples from Cornwall, contracts or business from the local authority. one of which is from my own constituency. A group of people in Falmouth in my constituency Paul Burstow: My hon. Friend is making an important responded to the Prime Minister’s dementia challenge point about the patchy quality of domiciliary care. by wanting to ensure that everybody in the community There are good examples, such as in Wiltshire, where supported people with dementia. More than 200 organisations the service has been remodelled to focus on outcomes. in Falmouth got together to make it a dementia-friendly However, there is an issue about whether the Government community. I was proud, in my hometown, to be at the 1093 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1094 launch a couple of weeks ago, and I was proud that it Sarah Newton: I am grateful for your advice, Madam was the first town in Cornwall, and probably one of the Deputy Speaker, and I am sorry. It is just that I am so first in the country, to be a dementia-friendly community. passionate about this subject that I have lost track of What does it mean to be a dementia-friendly community? time. It means that the shopkeepers in the high street have I am pleased that the Minister remembers that gone through awareness training. It means that we have experience—this was the final point I was coming to—and dementia cafes and that the people in the youth centre has agreed to meet Tracey Roose from Age UK and Ian are aware of people with dementia. Overall, it means Jones from Volunteer Cornwall quite soon to take forward that people who suffer from dementia, or are caring for what he experienced first hand in Cornwall with some someone who suffers from dementia, can go into Falmouth more ideas. Changing Lives is a fantastic example of with confidence, knowing that they will receive a warm how volunteers can work with GPs to ensure that welcome in the shops, libraries, public spaces and the people have access to all the care and support that they youth centre. The people there will understand more need to live happy, fulfilled lives in their communities. about dementia and some of the behaviour that comes The pilot in Cornwall has had some quite dramatic with it. Some people might find that behaviour a little results, not only in terms of carers feeling better supported bit challenging and scary, which often makes the people and the vulnerable, frail older people concerned having who care for someone with dementia want to stay at a better quality of life, but in huge savings for the NHS, home. They can be fearful of the response they will with 30% fewer unplanned admissions in our acute trust. receive in a public space and end up becoming isolated. These are all the things that we instinctively and I can honestly say that people with dementia will receive intuitively know—that if people get good advice, the a very warm welcome in Falmouth, thanks to the huge help and support they need and opportunities to play amount of work done by a small group of volunteers their part in society, they can live independent lives at ably led by the Bridges, who are Rotarians in Falmouth. home. The Government can be proud of much of what The whole community has got behind this exciting they are doing, but given the concerns of carers we have project—indeed, so much so that another group of heard throughout the week there is clearly still much people in Falmouth, led by a former nurse, Lisa Dann, more to do. I for one look forward to supporting the has been working with Dementia UK over the last year Government’s efforts to make this a proud country and to raise enough money for two admiral nurses. For a great place to grow old and care for people. those who do not know, admiral nurses, who are similar to Macmillan nurses, are specialist nurses who work alongside those with dementia and their carers, providing 12.53 pm a lifeline for people coping with what can be a very Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) difficult condition. Lisa was motivated to set up the (Lab): I congratulate the right hon. Member for Sutton charity and raise funds because of the poor support and Cheam (Paul Burstow), the hon. Member for Banbury that her mum and her family received when her dad was (Sir Tony Baldry) and my hon. Friend the Member for suffering, before sadly dying from dementia. Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) on organising Lisa has created a fantastic legacy in recognition of this debate. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak her father by raising enough funds—£60,000 in one after such thoughtful contributions. I want to focus on year, which is a great credit to her, her team and the unpaid carers; I will leave others to talk about the care community—for the whole of Cornwall to have two system as a whole. admiral nurses. Her group is working innovatively in a partnership with a large social enterprise in Cornwall— As we have heard, carers play a vital role, not just for Cornwall Care, which is the largest independent care their family members and friends but for the country. In provider in the county—to make the scheme sustainable. the past decade, the number of carers has grown from The group will be raising more money for more admiral just under 5 million to nearer 7 million. By 2037, it is nurses, which will provide a huge amount of support for estimated that the number will have increased to nearly carers, as well as people suffering from dementia. That 9 million. In my constituency, there are 11,076 unpaid is a good example of how the voluntary sector and carers, nearly a quarter of whom provide care for more volunteers can create a caring environment for carers. than 50 hours a week. As has been said, we know that this is an underestimate of the actual number who Norman Lamb: I came across another example in my provide care. My hon. Friend the Member for Worsley hon. Friend’s county called Changing Lives, where GPs and Eccles South talked about the lack of information work together— and advice, which has certainly been identified in my constituency. Age UK in Oldham recently opened an Sarah Newton: I was just about to come to that. information and advice centre, and I hope that people will avail themselves of that. Like other Members, I, Norman Lamb: I very much agree with my hon. too, have had the plight of carers increasingly brought Friend about the role of civil society. That will be a vital to my attention in my surgeries. Their situation is a collaboration if we are to meet the challenge, given the growing problem. rise in the number of people who need care. In today’s terms, the role played by carers saves the Sarah Newton rose— economy £119 billion a year. That is more than the total NHS budget and nearly six times the adult social care Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. budget. The country could not survive without the When the hon. Lady addresses that point, will she also work that carers do, and that is even more so today, pay attention to the fact that there are other Members with the crisis that social care is facing. We are facing who wish to speak and that she has been speaking for the double whammy of an ageing society—it is great nearly 18 minutes? that we are, on the whole, living longer, although austerity 1095 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1096

[Debbie Abrahams] on young carers’ health of their caring role. Many people will be surprised to learn that, according to recent is certainly having an impact on life expectancy—and a census figures, there are more than 178,000 young carers meltdown in social care in local authorities, with cuts to in England and Wales. Those are the official figures, but their budgets having an impact on social care budgets. we know that they are an underestimate. Children as Unfortunately, carers are picking up the tab. A recent young as five are looking after family members who are Carers UK survey showed that a third of those caring physically or mentally ill or disabled, their roles ranging for more than 35 hours a week have no support at all. from doing household chores to providing nursing or Although 3 million carers juggle work with caring personal care. responsibilities, one in five has been forced to give up The effects on those children and young people work. are immense and lifelong. Because of their caring In addition to the lack of support for caring, carers responsibilities, nearly a quarter of young carers often across the UK are starting to see the impact of the miss school or have educational difficulties. Youngcarers Welfare Reform Act 2012. Changes to financial support are also more likely to grow up in poverty, to be socially with housing and council tax in some areas mean that excluded, to have low aspirations and achievement and many families are experiencing reduced financial support to have relationship issues. Those problems can follow from more than one of the changes. The discretionary them throughout their lives. There is also evidence of funding set aside by councils to support people affected significant effects on their physical and mental health, by the bedroom tax is enough to help only one in with anxiety, depression and self-esteem issues being 10 disabled people. Carers who require an additional particularly prevalent. It has been shown that, after a room because they cannot share with partners who year of caring, morbidities fail to return to pre-caring sleep in hospital beds, or parents of disabled children levels. who need the space for care workers to provide overnight Services do not always respect young carers and the care are being seriously let down. More than 5,000 role that they play. My research indicated that many families with care needs are faced with either moving or young people felt excluded from discussions about their finding an extra £700 a year. family member’s care, even though they were providing The cumulative effects of the economic downturn, a much of it. Some of the responses to questions on squeeze on wages and the increasing costs of essentials whether the young carers should be allowed to see their such as food and fuel, along with the cuts in social parents in hospital, for example, were quite heartbreaking. security support, are making it more difficult for carers Similarly, many young carers felt that there was a lack to manage. More than four in 10 carers in the Carers of understanding and support from their teachers and UK survey said they had been in debt as a result of schools. I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for caring. This year will see other changes to the benefits Worsley and Eccles South said about this. We must system, as the transfer of disability living allowance to ensure that schools take seriously their role in supporting the personal independence payment and the universal young carers. credit are introduced, which is also of considerable concern to many carers. DLA was the gatekeeper to Barbara Keeley: I have mentioned the fact that we carer’s allowance. The changes mean that 10,000 fewer have a young carers project in Salford that is doing great carers will not be entitled to carer’s allowance. Many of work. It was interesting, however, that one of the schools us have already called on the Government to review involved came back to the project and said, “We have these changes and undertake a cumulative impact no young carers at all”, when the project knew that it assessment of the effects of these welfare reforms. For did. The perception among some head teachers is that many, they will be the tipping point. they do not have any. Is my hon. Friend worried about In addition to that, and as a consequence of debt and that as well? a lack of support, there are significant effects on the health of carers. Eight out of 10 carers report that their Debbie Abrahams: I totally agree with my hon. Friend; caring role affects their physical health and nine out of that is very worrying, and we must try to do better by 10 say that their mental health has suffered. This is not those young people. only a human tragedy; we are storing up problems for the future by not caring for our carers. I am encouraged by what the Minister has said today about the discussions, but I reiterate my hon. Friend the I know about that from my personal experience of Member for Worsley and Eccles South’s sentiment that caring for my mum—I have spoken about her before—who warm words are not enough. Will he tell us when we can died of Alzheimer’s last September. She had Alzheimer’s expect to have the amendments included in the Children for 10 years, and for the last three years was unable to and Families Bill? The rights of parent carers of disabled communicate or to feed or toilet herself. Although my children are also still in limbo, and the Government mum lived in the States, I provided respite care during must bring forward changes to the Bill to ensure that leave, so I can personally attest to the physical and the rights of that group of carers are not left behind. I emotional toll that it had on me. In the last few months recognise the Government’s commitment to carers’ rights, of her life she was bedridden. I am little, but I am fairly but I reiterate my earlier remarks: no matter how much fit and strong, yet physically trying to lift her to bathe her we legislate for assessing carers’ needs, it is meaningless or change her continence pads was something I found without the means to implement it. Local authority really difficult to manage. The worst thing was the emotional budgets have been pared to the bone, and that is having toll, however, as I worried how everyone was coping. an impact on social care budgets. How are we going to I want to spend the last few minutes talking about deliver those assessments? A further £800 million of young carers. One of the last research projects I worked cuts are planned for this year alone. I would be grateful on before I was elected to this place concerned the effect if the Minister would address that point as well. 1097 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1098

1.3 pm those whose condition pre-dated their caring role, a quarter said that their condition had worsened since Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): I congratulate becoming a carer. the Backbench Business Committee and the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) on Caring clearly takes a huge toll on carers’ physical securing this important debate. It is a pleasure to contribute and mental health, and those not receiving respite are to it. I was delighted to be invited last week to Inverclyde’s far more likely to suffer from mental health problems. national carers week event, the theme of which was The impact is often exacerbated by carers being unable “Prepared to Care?” A marvellous week of activities to find time for medical check-ups or treatment for was organised to highlight caring, and special thanks themselves, with two in five carers saying that they are must go to the secretary of the local carers forum in forced to put off treatment because of their caring Inverclyde, Mrs Christina Boyd, who put together an responsibilities. Research by Carers UK includes cases interesting week of activities for the carers who attended. of carers discharging themselves from hospital because of an absence of alternative care. On the day I attended, my local leisure company demonstrated keep fit with carers. It was announced as I took questions from carers at the carers forum last low-impact seated aerobics, and of course I took part. Friday, and it was no surprise that their biggest worry at It is difficult to describe it, and perhaps difficult for the moment is the bedroom tax. The Government should Members to visualise it, without the accompanying urgently review the impact that the charge is having on music. Perhaps we should consider introducing it in the carers, because the vast majority of care in the UK is House, although I dare say that some members of the provided by family and friends. The work that family public think that we already have. and relatives do so willingly is often ignored or goes The focus should be on carers all year round, not just unseen. Family carers are truly the unsung heroes of for one week. We need to recognise and support the our communities. Social services and the NHS rely on work that they contribute, both on a personal level and carers’ willingness and ability to provide care, yet we as to our community and society as a whole. That contribution a society seem to put very little value on carers or has never been greater. The statistics on caring up and recognise their commitment. down the country are quite staggering. One in eight Social isolation and social exclusion are often remarked adults is a carer, which equates to about 6 million on by carers. They feel very isolated and report not people. Every day, another 6,000 people take on a having enough respite to have personal relationships of caring responsibility, equating to more than 2 million their own. They also report the stress and guilt associated people a year. More than 1 million people care for more with taking time off from their caring role. Many have than one person. It has been estimated that carers save not had even a day off in a whole year. the economy £119 billion a year—an average of more Many carers and carer households are often in poverty than £18,000 per carer. because carers have had to give up work or take on part-time work. They say that they could not otherwise Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): I fulfil their role as a carer. Of those in part-time work, congratulate my hon. Friend on making those points. many are in low-paid employment, and young carers He will appreciate that many carers are older people. are more often found in the NEET category—not in Has he, like me, been approached by constituents—women education, employment or training—or leave school in particular—who are upset that they will lose their with fewer qualifications. carers allowance when they reach retirement age? Does What of the professional carers? According to a he agree that it would be appropriate to have some form recent report on the plight of carers in the UK by the of carers supplement for such people, not only in recognition union Unison, the current system of home care is of their contribution but to meet the additional costs failing the people who receive it and the people who involved in caring? provide it. Unison describes the treatment of those receiving care and of workers as an outrage. It says Mr McKenzie: I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. private home care workers are being exploited—effectively Friend. Many of my elderly and women constituents paid below the minimum wage and given little or no have approached me with that very big worry in mind. training. Care workers are among the most poorly paid It is something that we need to look at, and that the workers in the country; most are on the minimum wage, Government need to respond to. and there has been an increase in the number of zero-hours More than 3 million people juggle care with work, contracts. More than half of the care worker respondents but the significant demands of caring mean that many to the recent survey reported that their terms and carers are forced to give up work altogether. The main conditions had worsened over the last year. carers benefit is £58.45 for a minimum of 35 hours. What about the level of training? Can we say it is That is the equivalent of £1.67 per hour, which falls far adequate? Well, 41% of care staff are not given specialist short of the national minimum wage. However, 1.25 million training to deal with their clients’ specific medical needs, people provide more than 50 hours of care per week. such as dementia and stroke-related conditions. Standards Carers’ health can also suffer. People providing high and training are insufficiently regulated. We should levels of care are twice as likely to fall sick. The fact that compare this with Germany, where carers require several 625,000 people suffered mental and physical ill health years’ training. last year as a direct consequence of the stress and What of the care provided by our local authorities? physical demands of caring illustrates the true impact Local authorities are being squeezed at this time of on carers’ health. Research by Carers Scotland found austerity and having made all the efficiency savings they that almost half of carers with health problems reported can, they are now in a dilemma—at least they are in that their conditions began after they started caring. Of Scotland. They have to make very hard decisions and 1099 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1100

[Mr McKenzie] organise national carers week. I met people from the Multiple Sclerosis Society, Marie Curie and other have to meet the challenge of delivering core services organisations, who told me about their experiences. I such as care with reduced funding while maintaining think they were absolutely right to bring carers themselves the same level of quality. I fear that things will only get to talk to us here in Parliament about their experiences. more difficult for local government to continue to deliver They reflected many of the conversations I have had high-quality care. with my own constituents. I met a carer who cares for In conclusion, we owe the millions of carers out there his wife who has MS and a former carer who cared for the respect and all the assistance we can give them her husband who had cancer. They both asked me to because some day we may just find ourselves performing champion raising the carer’s allowance. That is what I a caring role or being cared for ourselves. want to do today. Carers UK’s analysis of the recent census shows that 1.12 pm the fastest-growing group of carers are people over Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): I am grateful for 65 with caring responsibilities. There has again been a the opportunity to take part in this important debate, much more significant rise in those numbers in my which affects so many of our constituents around the constituency than nationally, with a 35% rise of older country. I add my appreciation and congratulate the carers nationally compared with a 62% rise in Corby Members who requested the Backbench Business and East Northamptonshire. I am determined to engage Committee to provide time for this debate, and indeed with local organisations—including charitable and the Backbench Business Committee itself on recognising voluntary organisations that work with carers, but also the significance of this issue. This debate is timely local authority and local health bodies—to try to because many Bills and other measures either before the understand why the rise is so significant in my constituency, House or to be debated over the coming weeks and the extent to which those bodies have been able to months will have a huge impact on carers. respond to it and whether that trend will continue. Before dealing with that, I want to speak about why Carers over 65 who receive the state pension are, as this issue is so important to many of my constituents. There hon. Members have said, unable to receive carer’s are 14,980 carers in Corby and East Northamptonshire allowance—despite the fact that they still face additional —a rise of 23% over the last 10 years, which is higher costs as a result of caring and have often lost earnings than the 11% rise nationally. There are nearly 3,500 from retiring early to care. What plans do the Government carers in Corby and East Northamptonshire who care have to provide more practical and financial support to for more than 50 hours a week—a rise of 40% over the people who spend their retirement caring for their partners, last 10 years, which is far higher again than the national adult disabled children or their own older parents? My average increase of 25%. Of those nearly 15,000 carers own parents are approaching retirement and they, like in my constituency, more than 8,000 are juggling work many people nowadays, find themselves part of what is and caring, which presents many issues. called the sandwich generation. They not only help me I support the points that other hon. Members have to bring up my children, providing lots of extra help made about the need for employers to demonstrate and support for child care, but increasingly find that really good practice in this area and support employees they are taking on a care and support role for their who have caring responsibilities. I agree with my hon. parents. That matter should concern all of us. It is Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara particularly important in the context of our full knowledge Keeley) in deploring the fact that the Independent that we have an ageing population, which will present a Parliamentary Standards Authority is not prepared to growing challenge for us. set a good standard in this place, where Members are not allowed to grant their staff compassionate leave. I Carers UK figures show that carers are out of work think we should be an exemplar in this and should work for an average of five years as a result of giving up work together across the House to urge IPSA to change its to care for an older or disabled loved one. Many struggle practice. to return to work afterwards, yet find that their carer’s In my constituency, many people are employed through allowance stops very quickly. What support can be employment agencies. Even where there are opportunities provided to help carers when caring comes to an end to for employers to show their employees that they are ensure that they do not fall into financial hardship as a good and caring, many of my constituents will not be result of losing carers’ benefits? What can we do to help touched by that. They will find that they are not able to them return to work, retraining where necessary? continue working and caring. My hon. Friend the Member I recently met a lady who came to my surgery in for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) referred to the amount Raunds to talk to me about her experience. Her particular of the carer’s allowance. It does not compare well with concern was about the impact of the bedroom tax, but jobseeker’s allowance, for example. We should have an she also told me how her life of caring for her husband aspiration to improve it. In recognising the significant had come to an end as he sadly passed away. She told number of people involved and the huge cost implications me how unsupported she felt in the months afterwards, of trying to increase the support for carers out there, we as some of the help and support she had hoped for— must also recognise that the carer’s allowance provides a previously in place in part because of her caring very small amount for our constituents to live on. The responsibility—was taken away from her. She then found financial challenges, as other Members have said, are she had to contend with the bedroom tax on her large getting much tougher at the moment. family house. She had no choice—either move from her I attended various events during national carers week, family home quickly as she grieved for her husband or including the event here in Parliament. I want to face financial destitution. I felt incredibly sad that she congratulate all the organisations that came together to faced that situation. 1101 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1102

I was recently visited by my constituent, Mags Maguire, carers will be supported in the same way as adults. I who told me about her mum, Mrs McKay. She asked should like to see the details of their amendments as for my help in trying to ensure that a care package was soon as possible. in place for her mother. I have tried on her behalf; I There are, of course, significant areas of disagreement have, unfortunately, not made sufficient progress, but I between Government and Opposition on both those will keep trying. Mags herself is a resourceful person. Bills, but we also welcome their positive aspects, which She recently contacted the occupational therapist again are due in no small measure to all the outside organisations to describe the situation she faced. The occupational that have helped to inform Parliament throughout the therapist replied: passage of the two Bills. Those organisations have “Hi Mags, just to let you know...We rarely prioritise cases as contributed a huge amount, but I fear that, unless we critical, as this is for cases where if something is not done see those amendments soon, they will have no real immediately it will be a case of life or death and if there is nothing opportunity to contribute to the shaping of measures to else that can be done and provided to reduce that risk in the interim and the major adaptations are the only way to reduce risk. help young carers. We can still be waiting 12+ months for works to be done under a I want to say something about social care funding, ‘critical’ priority as the amount of funding available will affect the but I must be briefer than I intended to be, so that other waiting list times.” Members can speak. I should like the Government to Mags is merely requesting some small adaptations to think about the fact that the Dilnot cap does not cover the home in which her mum lives, and it seems to me charges for carers’ services. They may say that they do that that ought to be possible. not intend local authorities to charge for those services, The occupational therapist continued: but we must recognise that all authorities face a huge funding challenge, and charges are therefore quite possible. “I could not prioritise the case as urgent as Mrs McKay has a care package to meet her personal care needs and meals and also As for the Welfare Reform Act 2012, the carers to family to support.” whom I have spoken welcome the Government’s decision The “care package” is, in fact, the family support. The to retain carers allowance as an independent benefit family get Mrs McKay up in the morning, and the family rather than subsuming it in universal credit. However, provide the meals. The “care package” is not provided there is serious concern about other aspects of the Act. by anyone other than the family members themselves. Following the introduction of personal independence I have personal experience, in that my granddad payments, 600,000 fewer disabled people will be entitled cared for my nan for many years. He died on the day to support—600,000 people whom I think we should be after Boxing Day, 18 months ago. He undertook those trying to help. Moreover, 10,000 fewer carers will be entitled caring responsibilities without any help or support—which, to carers allowance and about 5,000 will be subject to of course, saved the taxpayer a huge amount of money— the household benefit cap, losing an average of more and he undertook them willingly because he loved my than £100 a week. nan hugely and they had spent their whole lives together, Two thirds of those affected by the bedroom tax are but by the end of his life his own health had suffered disabled, but the discretionary money set aside for greatly because of the extra responsibility that he had councils to support disabled people would be sufficient taken on as a carer. He would have been happy to to support only one in 10 of them. Local authorities are continue that responsibility, but an intervention should in a very difficult position. I have been in touch with my have been made earlier to provide him with at least own council in an attempt to secure discretionary support, some additional help and support. but it simply does not have the money to provide it the What was even worse was that after granddad died, help that it knows is needed. we tried to arrange care and support for my nan, but for a long time were unable to do so. Then, late last year, I Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): As the hon. Gentleman walked up her garden path to find that she was not knows, the Government constantly say that their aim is sitting in her usual chair. I tapped gently on the window, to help those who play by the rules and do the right as I always do, in order not to alarm her, and saw that thing. It is clear from what he and other Members have she was lying on the floor. Fortunately there was a key said that carers are people who do the right thing—who in a safe and I was able to get into the house, where I are motivated to do the right thing—and who play by called 999. My nan was unconscious for four days, and the rules. Why should they be victimised by cruel rules only after that were we able to obtain the care and support that are being introduced as part of the Government’s package that she needed. It should not take a stroke to welfare reform measures? secure a decent package of help and support, it should not take such a long time, and it should not be at the huge cost of the health of a partner, children or other carers. Andy Sawford: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. I think it important to look at the opportunities with Some of my constituents who are affected by those which Parliament will be presented in the coming weeks measures do feel victimised. What the hon. Gentleman and months. The Care Bill will consolidate and simplify said about fairness is absolutely right. We all want changes decades of social care legislation in England, and I to be made in a fair way, but many of my constituents—not welcome some aspects of it, but it is disappointing that just the disabled people and carers who are affected— the new rights that it confers will apply only to adults. I recognise the unfairness of the measures. The Government was a member of the Committee that considered the should think again about many of their proposals. I Children and Families Bill. We pressed the points about urge them in particular to take account of what Members young carers, and we were given some assurances. have said today about the bedroom tax. We received the same assurances on Third Reading, but There is much more that I could say, but I know that the Government have still not explained fully how young other Members wish to speak, so I shall end my speech. 1103 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1104

1.26 pm the carer. That does not mean we should not also have further review and appeal processes, but I want us to Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I have something simple that people can make use of and congratulate the Members who helped to secure today’s that will make a difference. debate. A champion might also do more to make sure the During the debate on the Queen’s Speech, I referred voices of ordinary carers are heard. I am thinking about to the experiences of two carers in my constituency. One the hidden carers that so many Members have was Lynne Hanslow, who cares for her 96-year-old mentioned—the people who are too busy caring to have father, keeping him out of residential care. All that she time to attend the consultation sessions, which are asks for is a fortnight’s respite break each year, but this organised to suit the convenience and working hours of year, despite having given the council four months’ the NHS and local authority officials, so these people notice, she was denied that break and was abused by a are never heard. local authority employee when she complained about her treatment. Not surprisingly, Ms Hanslow ended up having to go to her GP. A carer had been made ill by Norman Lamb: I totally agree with what the hon. neglect and worry. Gentleman says about giving a voice to carers, who sometimes are treated appallingly, not only by providers I have spoken to the council’s director of adult services, of care, but by some of the statutory services and local but so far Ms Hanslow has not received the full apology authorities. With providers, we have introduced, through that she deserves, along with a promise that that will not the NHS Choices website, the ability for people, in happen again. I believe that the council’s chief executive TripAdvisor style, to speak out and have their say about should make the apology, thus sending the signal that poor standards of care, and we may need to do something he means to take the needs of carers seriously and will similar for local authorities, because there should be no not stand for his staff treating them with contempt. hiding place when people are let down in that way. Ms Hanslow’s experience is one of the reasons for my conclusion that statutory respite care should become a Steve McCabe: I welcome what the Minister says. I legal, enforceable right for carers. We have tried the am able to identify these people in my constituency, and other approaches for too long. I do not understand why it is so hard for the caring I also mentioned the case of Margaret McGarry. She organisations to identify them. cares for her frail elderly mother, who suffers from I wonder why we do not say that at the point when an dementia. Her direct payments have been suspended, individual qualifies for attendance allowance the local apparently in retaliation for her having had the temerity authority should be notified and instructed to commence to go to a solicitor because she felt that the local consultations with the person and their carer, with a authority was being unreasonable in terms of the flawed view to establishing a long-term care plan and review level of support that it was prepared to provide. There strategy. That could reduce the occurrence of crisis care should be a much simpler independent review process episodes, and the authority could simultaneously start for carers like Margaret McGarry who are treated in to develop a support plan for the carer, so the needs of such an appalling way. The current system seems almost the carer are at the centre of the care plan. to be weighted in favour of officials and bureaucrats, at the expense of carers. I wonder whether the time has come for local authorities to create carers champions to Paul Burstow: The hon. Gentleman’s point about look out for carers’ interests. I have come to the conclusion attendance allowance is interesting and important. He that local authority complaints procedures in much of may know that this week the Strategic Society Centre the NHS these days are not about problem solving at think-tank published an interesting report setting out all. They are about process. They are almost a game to how this area might be reformed in a way that provides create an illusion of accountability. I think we need a just what he has described: a front door into the social champion who will listen to carers’ concerns. care system. Does he share my surprise that we have a system that does not talk to social care at least in part because it is entirely paper-based? It is not electronic, Paul Burstow: I think it is worse than that. The and perhaps the Department for Work and Pensions balance of power is entirely wrong. It is too much on needs to consider putting it on that basis, so the information the side of the local authority to which the individual is can be shared more freely. complaining. That is why we need advocacy, but it is also why we need to look at the case made in the Joint Steve McCabe: I think I probably would agree with Committee report on the draft Care and Support Bill that, although the right hon. Gentleman must recognise for the need for a tribunal service, to start to address that the Government are moving increasingly towards these matters in a more impartial way, detached from systems that do not allow for face-to-face exchange. I the local authority. How can a local authority investigate understand that that is one of the major disputes about itself? what is happening in the DWP. I think it would make classic sense, however. All of us hear enough about Steve McCabe: I certainly agree with that, although I joined-up government, and this is one area where a bit would be reluctant for us to have a complex system that of joined-up government could save money and provide the carer has more difficulty accessing. I take on board a much better service. the right hon. Gentleman’s point, however. In arguing for a champion, I am looking for someone Barbara Keeley: I was at an event the other day—as like a councillor, with sufficient clout to intervene and was the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member right wrongs and cut through the madness and bureaucracy for Leicester West (Liz Kendall)—at which somebody that all too often ends up punishing, rather than protecting, from the DWP was talking about this issue. They said 1105 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1106 they had tried a project to get their data to talk to the support family members provide for their loved ones; as local authority’s data, but had given up because the many Members have said, their financial contribution is local authorities all used different forms. That seemed estimated at more than £100 billion every single year. to me to be appalling. The Minister might like to think Despite that, all too often, carers go without the support about whether there could be guidance for local authorities. they deserve and desperately need to look after the If local authority forms are all that is stopping this vital people they love. That is why today’s debate is so sharing of data, it is about time we dealt with that. important. The last Government made important progress in Steve McCabe: One of the penalties of having been a improving support for carers. We introduced new rights Member of this House for quite a long time is that we for carers, including the right, for the first time, to get fed up with hearing such excuses. We know fine well request flexible working. We improved information and they are nonsense; if we want it to happen, we can make advice, and had training programmes for carers such as it happen. That is the approach we should take. the expert carers programme, the benefits of which I My hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) have seen in my own constituency through the brilliant talked about older carers and carers who have been work of CLASP, the carers centre in Leicester. We caring for older relatives, and I want to touch on one funded breaks for carers. Many Members have spoken particular aspect of that. What will happen under the powerfully about how important breaks are. If carers Government’s deferred payment equity release plans to who are caring for many hours a week have a bit of a surviving spouses who are carers, or elderly children break in sight, it really helps them to carry on. We also caring for even older parents—it is not uncommon introduced financial incentives for GP surgeries to identify these days for a 70-year-old to be the carer for somebody carers and refer them to local councils for support. That who is 95 or 96, for instance? What rights will they was part of the quality and outcomes framework, which have? In such situations, when the person who is being was introduced as part of the 2004 GP contract, and cared for enters residential care, what will happen to a was the very first step in providing a specific financial carer whose name is not on the deeds of the house, incentive for GPs to identify carers. although it may be their family home and they may well have lived there since marriage, or even childhood? However, as all Members have said, far, far more needs to be done. Like many Members, I have seen in We must ensure that these carers do not end up my constituency and within my own family the often homeless, destitute individuals with no pot of money to desperate daily struggle that is still faced by too many support them when they end up needing care themselves. people who look after a loved one who is disabled, I am not sure that the deferred payment scheme as physically frail or has dementia—sometimes all three. I currently structured takes account of the risk for those pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham carers, and it would be the cruellest of rewards if, after a East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams), who powerfully lifetime of care, we left them in this predicament. explained her own experience of the physical and emotional demands of caring for a loved one. As she said, there Norman Lamb: At present, when someone goes into a are the physical demands of helping someone to get up care home and they have to sell the home to pay for in the mornings. Carers can be exhausted from getting care, the position of the carer could be very precarious, up two, three or four times in the night to help someone but the arrangements for the right to defer payment go to the toilet, and from helping them move around potentially provide greater stability for the carer. The the home. There are also the emotional demands. When hon. Gentleman raises an important point, however, a carer sees the person they fell in love with become frail and I will be happy to write to him directly about it. and perhaps lose some of their pride and strength, it is terribly upsetting. If a son or daughter sees the parent Steve McCabe: I am grateful to hear that the Minister who brought them up and taught them about the world— will look at the issue. I acknowledge that the current for good or for ill—begin to fade as a result of dementia, system is far from perfect, but interest-related deferred and they begin to feel as if they themselves are becoming payments could mean more of the pot being consumed, the parent, it changes something essential in the nature and therefore less for the remaining carer. of that relationship. I have always believed that relationships are essentially what make us human. If someone has 1.38 pm dementia and begins to forget the relationships they Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): It is a real privilege have, it takes something away from the carer, as well. to follow the excellent speeches made by Members on Caring for a loved one is physically and emotionally both sides of the House today. I thank the Backbench demanding. Many Members have talked about the role Business Committee for giving us the opportunity to of public services. Health professionals are taught to debate this crucial subject, and I particularly congratulate understand physical and mental illness, but not necessarily the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul the wider emotional and social issues. Burstow), my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and I want to talk about three critical areas where we Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) and the hon. Member need to make progress, the first of which is identifying for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry). carers. If we do not know who they are, we will not get One in 10 of all adults are now caring for an older or them the help and support they need. The second is disabled person—6.5 million in total, up 600,000 from ensuring they get the right information, advice and 10 years ago. The biggest increases are among those support from the NHS as well as social care. The third aged over 65 and those caring for more than 50 hours a is helping carers to stay in employment, which many week. This is a huge change in society that we all need Members have talked about. That is particularly important to do more to understand and get to grips with. Our as we all live longer and need to work for longer. If the care system simply would not function without the vital public finances are to remain stable, we must do everything 1107 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1108

[Liz Kendall] was no good for her, and it is no good for taxpayers. More than one in five carers who have been admitted to we can to help people in that regard. My hon. Friends hospital as an emergency case in the last three years say the Members for Worsley and Eccles South and for that it could have been prevented, had they been helped Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) talked about to look after their own health, or been given a break the importance of identifying carers. The hon. Member from caring or other forms of support. Given that for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) said that there is a great money is so tight across the NHS and council care deal of awareness of carers and of the use of that term, services, we have to get those up-front preventive services but lots of people still do not realise they are a carer or and support in place. think of themselves as such; they are simply trying to be I have another practical suggestion for the Minister. a good daughter, son, husband or wife. Others do not As he knows, there is a brilliant national GP patient ask for support because they worry that people will survey, run by Ipsos MORI, which provides detailed think they cannot cope; there is a lot of associated guilt. information about the needs of patients registered at a We need to identify these hidden carers. surgery. The last time I looked through it, I do not think There are many examples of good practice, but perhaps there were any questions about whether the respondent the best I have seen is in Torbay, where the issue of was a family carer. It was about the needs of the identifying carers in GPs’ surgeries and hospitals has individual patients, not carers. Such a question would been closely examined. If someone who has had a stroke provide us with some brilliant data that could be given comes in with a family member, it is recognised that that back to individual surgeries as the basis from which to family member is likely to be a carer. A great range of start developing support. support is provided. The approach taken in Torbay starts with the person who may need health care; as a result, they immediately talk about their family member. Norman Lamb: The GP survey is absolutely something that we can consider. If we can demonstrate how individual I want to offer some practical suggestions to the surgeries are performing against their responsibilities Minister on how to make further progress. Will he towards the whole family, and not just towards the consider amending the quality and outcomes framework? person who is receiving medical treatment, we might At the moment, it provides a points incentive and a well drive changes of behaviour in the surgery. financial incentive for GPs to refer carers to social care services; but why not to other health services, if carers’ health needs are so important? Secondly, will he give Liz Kendall: I am very pleased to hear that from the guidance on the best questions used to indentify carers? Minister and I will continue to follow it up with him. When I recently registered with a new GP, the leaflet Including such questions in the survey would not cost provided asked, “Are you a carer?” I knew what that any more and the data are collected by individual meant because I am familiar with the policy debate, but practice, so we would all be able to look at the GP most people would wonder what that meant—paid surgery data in our own constituencies and ask what carer, unpaid carer? action plans were being followed. Clinical commissioning groups could be required to follow that up. I spoke at the event that launched the research into attendance allowance claimants by the Strategic Society The third issue that many hon. Members have talked Centre and Independent Age. There are 1.3 million about is helping carers to stay in paid work. Families need older and disabled people in England with very high the income carers get from paid work and our economy levels of need. The research shows that 35% of attendance needs the skills and talents of carers. That challenge will allowance claimants are cared for by a son or daughter, only increase as our population ages and as more people 30% by a partner, and 15% by another family member. live for longer and have to care for longer. The DWP has that information: I hope the Minister will The biggest group of carers are people aged 50 to 65, talk to his DWP colleagues about drawing up a proper many of whom still want and need to work. Many are action plan. women who, as hon. Members have said, are stretched Thirdly, I want to join my hon. Friends in pressing at all ends. Some are looking after their children or the Minister on what action will be taken through the grandchildren, or sometimes both, as well as caring for draft Care and Support Bill to identify young carers. a frail partner or elderly relative and trying to hold Will he update us on his meeting with the Education down a job. To have one in three carers being forced to Minister? What is the obstacle to amending the Children give up work or reduce their hours because the right and Families Bill, the draft Care and Support Bill, or services and support are not available does not make both? I tell the Minister that the Opposition will table sense for our economy as a whole. The right hon. relevant amendments if the Government do not. Member for Sutton and Cheam talked about the LSE I turn now to improving information and advice for and Age UK research that shows that that is costing carers. Carers UK says that a third of those caring full more than £5 billion a year in lost tax revenues and time for an older disabled or seriously ill friend or increased benefit bills. relative receive no practical support, and those who do I strongly urge the Minister to talk to his colleagues often find that services do not fit around their particular in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills needs, especially if they are struggling to hold down a about how the Government can do more to promote job. As many Members have said, these services still too flexible working among family carers. We have made often end up offering last-minute help and support, great progress in arguing that child care is part of our when families have already reached crisis point. I pay economic infrastructure, and, as the population ages, tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy social care must be too. I believe that from cradle to Sawford), who talked about his nan. Before she got any grave, child care and social care must be the twin pillars support, a crisis point had already been reached. That of a reformed welfare state. 1109 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1110

In conclusion, the draft Care and Support Bill is an is their right to do so. The debate has been a good one important step forward and is very welcome. It builds and I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member on the recommendations of the Law Commission’s for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) for securing it, review into adult social care legislation, established and together with his colleagues, and for all the work and initiated under the previous Labour Government. Indeed, championing he has done over the years for carers. many of its recommendations were set out in our White Paper on social care, produced just before the general Let me make a preliminary point. Some of the election. On its own, however, the Bill will not be Opposition speeches, including that made by the hon. enough. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds), focused on the difficult financial circumstances for local Rights in law simply will not be delivered on the government, the impact of welfare reforms and so on. ground if the services are not available locally to make We could have a partisan battle about the issues, them a reality. Local council budgets for adult social condemning the Government and so on. However, the care have been under pressure for many years, but they shadow Minister recognised at the start of her speech are now at crisis point as council budgets have been cut the scale of the challenge we face, not just today but in by a third under this Government. The Local Government the future. The numbers of people growing older with Association says that councils have had to reduce their care needs, often with multiple conditions and a mix of adult social care budgets by £2.7 billion over the past mental and physical health needs, just keep growing. If three years—that is a staggering 20%. The LGA says we are all honest, both in this Chamber and with the that public outside, we must admit that any Government of “eligibility thresholds cannot be raised much higher, 87% of any political persuasion would face this challenge. councils are now at the substantial/critical threshold”. That affects not just the statutory services, but the There is no easy solution. We cannot just find a voluntary organisations that several hon. Members have magic pot of money to throw at the problem. There is rightly championed. Cuts from Leicestershire county an obligation on us all, as the shadow Minister made council mean that CLASP carers centre in Leicester clear, to find ways of using the money we have available wonders whether it will even be able to survive. Many much more effectively than we do. We know that there Members have talked about the important role of the is massive waste in the system because of the care voluntary sector, but without state funding many such silos—between health and social care, between mental organisations will not exist in future. and physical health and between general practice and secondary care. There is an absolute obligation on us all Will the Minister back calls from Opposition Ministers to engage in a debate about using money more effectively for £1.2 billion of this year’s NHS underspend, handed to achieve better care and support for people and to back to the Treasury in March, to be given to social care ensure that the system remains sustainable. I want to to ease the short-term funding crisis over the next two ensure that we elevate the debate by recognising the years? What representations has he made to the Chancellor challenges we face. on council care budgets for the spending review? Has his Department made the clear economic and social The speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for justice cases for preventing them from being slashed Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) was, I think, further? If any NHS funds are to be transferred to local really valuable. Ultimately, we need collaboration among councils in next week’s spending review, will they be statutory services, which should not abandon their specifically ring-fenced so that money gets through to responsibilities, the voluntary sector and, crucially, people— the front line? that is, the community, families, neighbours and friends. We need to unleash particularly the power of the many Ultimately, we need a bigger and bolder response to people who have entered retirement fit and healthy and meet the needs of our ageing population and to help want to give something back, but often do not know Britain’s carers. We need a fully integrated NHS and how to do so. An army of people out there are able and social care system with one budget. We should take the willing to help to meet the enormous challenges. Some £15 billion spent on social care and the more than of the schemes that my hon. Friend the Member for £100 billion spent on the NHS and join them together Truro and Falmouth alluded to in her county are happening so that we get better care and better value for money for in many parts of the country, and they point us to a taxpayers. I believe that that is what Britain’s carers better future—a more caring future, where community deserve. strength is rebuilt.

1.55 pm I wish to join everyone else in this debate in paying tribute to the extraordinary work that carers do, giving The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman of themselves; it is self-sacrifice, and they get no plaudits Lamb): I am grateful to the shadow Minister, the hon. from anywhere else. They are just committing to helping Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall), for her thoughtful someone they love, often doing so in challenging and speech, much of which I agreed with. This has been a troubling circumstances, particularly where dementia is thoughtful debate in which many good points have been concerned, as the loss of recognition can be very distressing made and I thank Members for raising this very important for a loved one. We also know that many carers are issue. Many Members who have taken part in the debate themselves frail, struggling to cope on their own. My have been long-standing advocates for carers and I hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) welcome their interest and commitment. I completely mentioned the challenges in rural areas. My constituency understand why various Members constantly pursue of North Norfolk contains many elderly people who issues such as those to do with young carers and will not are often living in isolated communities and are struggling accept my determination to help with that problem to get access to the services they need. We owe an until it is dealt with. I accept that that is their role and it enormous debt of gratitude to the work of every carer 1111 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1112

[Norman Lamb] who has responsibility for children and families, and I have done so. I appreciate that until something concrete in our community. As we have identified in this debate, happens the hon. Lady will, rightly, keep pressing. I give without carers the cost to the public purse would be her my assurance, again, that I understand and accept enormous. the case she is making. The hon. Friend the Minister I therefore very much welcome this debate, coming, and I are entirely clear that our joint aim is to ensure as it does, immediately after carers week. It gives us the that young people are protected from having to undertake opportunity to discuss how carers of all ages can be excessive and inappropriate caring responsibilities. During properly supported in their role and helped to have a debates on the Children and Families Bill, he confirmed better quality of life. That is what we should be focusing that he and I are of one mind on the need to protect on: putting quality of life and well-being at the heart of young carers by using a whole-family approach to the the Care Bill. We should not be thinking about what assessment of adult care needs. service we deliver to passive recipients; we should always The Care Bill itself is not the place to go into the be thinking, “How do we make your life better? How do detail of how assessments should be conducted; that we make you happier in your life? What might you, as will be set out in regulations and statutory guidance. A an older person, be able to offer to other people?” It whole-family approach will undoubtedly benefit children, should be about that, rather than about these people but I am keen that it also encompasses other significant sensing that they have nothing more to offer and just family relationships. We need to look genuinely at the facing dependency as they move towards the end of whole family, whatever the relationships are between their life in a rather distressing way. those receiving care and those giving it. Carers are central to the Government’s proposals for In last week’s debate, my hon. Friend the Minister improving care and support. The Care Bill, currently confirmed that his Department will look at what it can being discussed in another place, puts carers on the do to remove any legal barriers preventing young carers same footing as those for whom they care. We propose and their families from receiving the support they need, to simplify the assessment process for adult carers by and how we can ensure that children’s legislation works extending their right to an assessment. The hon. Member with adult legislation to support the whole family. I am for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) made an clear that we have to address the concerns, and while we absolute point: people need simplicity and they must significantly advance the position of adult carers, we not be faced with bureaucratic jungles to fight their way cannot leave young carers behind. The approaches do through. Our simplified procedures will consider the need to be different, because we need to recognise impact of caring responsibilities on the carer in order to philosophically that children should not be caring help them to lead as independent a life as possible. We inappropriately. Of course sometimes they have to do intend to remove the requirement that a carer must be that, but we want to relieve the caring burden as far as is providing possible, while recognising that sometimes there will be “a substantial amount of care on a regular basis”— a caring role for some. that is the test—in order to be entitled to an assessment. That will mean that many more carers—in essence, Liz Kendall: Does that mean that there will be a all carers—will be able to access an assessment. In requirement on schools, and on further and higher addition, the Care Bill seeks to place a new duty on education bodies, specifically to identify young carers? councils to meet carers’ eligible needs for support. Those measures will be underpinned by a Department of Health commitment to provide new resources for carer Norman Lamb: It is not my job to speak on behalf of assessment and support, rising to £175 million per the Department for Education, and the hon. Lady will annum by 2020. have to be a bit more patient in waiting for further news on that subject. Barbara Keeley: Has the Minister really taken on Key principles to inform that work and discussion board the message that has come from my colleagues in over the summer are, first, that the starting point should this debate, which is that assessment is not always the be assessing the needs of the adult or child who needs answer? A lot of carers do not go near local authorities care and then seeing what remaining needs for support and are not likely to know of, hear of or ask for an a young carer in the family has. The presence of a young assessment. The people they are in contact with are carer should trigger either an assessment or the offer of GPs, doctors and nurses, so there must be much more an assessment to the person needing care. Secondly, a onus on the NHS and its staff to undertake the task of whole-family assessment is key when assessing an adult identifying carers at the earliest stage and ensuring that needing care where children in the family are providing they get information, advice and support. care to the adult or undertaking wider family responsibilities. The adult’s assessment and eligibility for support should take into account their parenting responsibilities and Norman Lamb: The hon. Lady asks whether I have the functioning of the family. Thirdly, assessments should taken that message on board—I could not have missed establish why a child is caring and how to prevent—this it. I totally agree with what has been said and I am is the crucial point—excessive or inappropriate caring going to discuss the role of health professionals. responsibilities which could have an adverse impact on I know that there is a lot of concern about young their education, social activities, emotional development carers, and it comes particularly from the hon. Lady. I or health. As much as possible we ought to be enabling said in the Queen’s Speech debate that I would meet the a youngster to grow up like any other youngster can, Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend without having inappropriate burdens on them that the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson), impact on their education and social life. 1113 Carers20 JUNE 2013 Carers 1114

Paul Burstow: Will my hon. Friend confirm that the integrating health and care services to improve quality, Government will be publishing amendments to give and we are developing the concept of “pioneers” to act effect to this within the next week or two? Will he set as exemplars to support the rapid dissemination and out the timetable? Will the Government also address uptake of lessons learned across the country. the other gap, which is the one regarding parents who Some hon. Members talked about the role of doctors are caring for disabled children? We need to make sure and other health care workers. I agree that much more that none of those who have caring responsibilities get needs to be done. We can look at incentives such as the left behind. GP survey mentioned in the exchange that I had with the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Leicester Norman Lamb: I cannot give my right hon. Friend a West, and we have provided funding for the Royal specific time scale for what might happen—he needs to College of General Practitioners and others to encourage watch this space, and I am sure he will. On the question GPs to think about the role of carers, but what we see of parent carers, the view of my hon. Friend the children’s from examples around the country, such as Changing Minister is that there is sufficient provision under section Lives in Cornwall, is that once GPs start to collaborate 17 of the Children Act 1989 to provide for the assessment and work as a partnership—as a team—with carers and and support of disabled children and their parents. In the family, they begin to see that their burden is relieved addition, special educational needs reforms in the Children because others can help them in the role that they have and Families Bill will give parents more choice in and to perform. That is the essential change that it is so control over the support they and their children receive. important to achieve. My right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): It is a sad fact of life, Cheam referred to the £400 million funding over four though, that when a social worker visits the home of years for carers’ breaks. It is deeply frustrating that that someone who needs care, they go with that client in has not been used as intended in all parts of the mind. If a child in the household is caring for that country. There are some areas, including Surrey and adult, for example, but the social worker focuses on the many others, which have done good, innovative things adult client, all too often the social worker does not as a result of that. The Department asked the policy think to cross-reference the child’s needs with colleagues research unit in economic evaluation in health and care in the social work department. intervention to conduct a survey of a number of PCTs to gain their views on the benefits of NHS support for Norman Lamb: I completely agree. That is why the carers’ breaks. The findings will be published shortly whole-family approach is so important. When dealing and will help inform our understanding of what has with the care needs of one individual, we need to look happened. The early indications are that there may be at the impact of those care needs on the whole family. more good things happening than we sometimes recognise, but clearly there have been significant gaps and much Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab) rose— more needs to be done. Norman Lamb: I will give way, but I then need to I appreciate that time is almost up. I entirely agree reach the end of my speech. with my right hon. Friend and many others about the importance of work. I make the point again that if Grahame M. Morris: I am grateful, and I compliment employers can recognise that providing help and assistance the Minister on his response. Does he recognise that, to enable people to remain in work is in their own particularly in relation to young carers, it is quite right self-interest as they maintain the skills in the work force to place additional duties and responsibilities on local while enabling that person to continue their caring authorities, but local authorities must be given sufficient responsibilities. resources to discharge those additional duties and This has been a good debate. There has been some responsibilities? informed discussion and I am very grateful to hon. Members for their contributions. Norman Lamb: I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was present when I said that we need to be Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I call Paul much smarter about how we use the money available. Burstow. We have about 40 seconds. One of the things we need to do—I think there is a degree of agreement here—is integrate health and care. 2.14 pm It is a crazy silo situation that we face. We are not using the money effectively. We could achieve much better Paul Burstow: In that case, I shall be very brief support if we combined the disparate parts of the indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker, and simply thank all those system to provide support shaped around the needs of who contributed to this debate, ask the Minister to the individual and their family. write to all Members who have taken part in the debate about the issues that he did not have time to address, The last spending round provided local government and underscore the fact that this debate recognises the with a challenging settlement. That is why we decided to invaluable work of carers and the fact that they are the provide extra funding to help local authorities maintain backbone of our care system. Without them we would access to services. However, local authorities ultimately not have a health and social care system worth its name. have discretion over how they use their resources. Improving We owe them a great debt, and as a result of that debt care and support is not simply a case of more money. we must strive to do more. Local authorities must look at how they can transform Question put and agreed to. care through innovation and new ways of working. As I said earlier, collaboration with the voluntary sector is Resolved, critical to this. Many local authorities are successfully That this House has considered the matter of carers. 1115 20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1116

East Coast Main Line Franchise next thing we heard was that the Government were to refranchise East Coast within a very short time scale. That was to be done at the expense of giving extensions 2.15 pm to two other long-distance operators—Virgin on the Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): I beg to west coast and First on Great Western—because the move, investigation into the franchising fiasco suggested that not more than one main line franchise should be dealt That this House has considered the matter of the east coast main line franchise. with at one time. Even on that basis, though, why the east coast line and not one of the other lines? It makes I thank the Backbench Business Committee for giving no sense to reprivatise a successful public sector operator us this debate. When I spoke to the Committee in while neglecting the other services. support of the debate, I acknowledged that we had a 90-minute Westminster Hall debate on the subject on 5 Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): I am June which was led by my hon. Friend the Member for following the hon. Lady’s speech with great interest, but Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), but on that occasion I always think it better to focus on cock-up in politics, there was great demand to speak. Many Members were rather than conspiracy. In that respect, would she like to limited to interventions. More importantly, there were explain why, on 21 January 2010, under a Labour many issues which the Minister of State, Department Government, the Department for Transport consultation for Transport, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford on franchising made a commitment from her party to (Mr Burns) did not address in his response. I intend to reprivatise the east coast main line? make that the focus of my speech today. I declare a family interest in the railways. My grandfather Sheila Gilmore: I am glad the hon. Gentleman made was a railwayman and I am sure he would be delighted that intervention, because it enables me to say that one to see me here today speaking up for the railways. Of of the most important things for all of us in politics is course, he was a railwayman in the pre-British Rail to experience, to look at the evidence, to learn and to days, let alone the post-British Rail days. In fact—this come to a view based on that evidence. No doubt he will probably give away my age—he was working on the would be interested to read an article published in The railways in the first world war in what was then a Northern Echo today in which Lord Adonis is reported reserved occupation. He recalled being approached as saying that, on the basis of that experience, his view occasionally by people with white feathers because he is that the line should not be refranchised. If we could was not fighting. He worked in the railways after the not learn from our experience and change our politics, war when it became British Rail, and as a long-term it would be a sad thing indeed. I hope that, having heard railwayman he would have been proud to see British that people who previously held that view have changed Rail and to see that the railways are still such an their mind, the present Government will be prepared to important element in our transport system. At various follow suit. times in the past 50 or 60 years there have been suggestions that railways were the past and we would move beyond Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): As I happen to railways, but here in the 21st century it is true to say that have the article from The Northern Echo in my hand, it railways are back as a hugely important part of our might help if I read out what Lord Adonis says: future, not just of our nostalgic past. It is therefore “In the last four years, East Coast has established itself as one particularly important that we get it right for the next of the best train operating companies in the country, both operationally 50 years. and commercially. The other interest that I have to declare is as a This has fundamentally changed the situation and it is right frequent traveller on the east coast main line, spending and proper that East Coast should be allowed to continue as a nearly 10 hours a week travelling on that line when public sector comparator to the existing private franchises.” Parliament is sitting. Since I started that regular commute, I have been extremely impressed with the service provided Sheila Gilmore: I thank my hon. Friend for clarifying by the current operator. That is not to say that it is the position. Perhaps for the rest of this debate, unlike perfect. I do not think any provider would have been the one in Westminster Hall, we will concentrate on the able to tackle, for instance, the day that the line was main issues before us and the reasons why the Government completely flooded north of Newcastle, when I ended made the decision they have. up having to spend the night in Newcastle. I do not In the Westminster Hall debate, a number of hon. believe that even a private operator could have held Members questioned the Minister’s claim that East back the waves of water that fell on the Newcastle area Coast’s performance had plateaued, noting the remarks that night, and I know that several Members present the right hon. Gentleman made to the Select Committee experienced that personally. on Transport on 24 April: I was perplexed when, following the fiasco of the west “If you look at the latest monthly figures for reliability and coast main line refranchising, the Government’s new punctuality, it is the worst of the 19 franchises.” schedule of competitions prioritised getting East Coast That struck me as odd, because in my experience East out of the door by February 2015, three months before Coast trains are, more often than not, on time. That was the next general election. Some cynics have suggested borne out in the debate, in which many speakers pointed that what motivated that proposal and the timing of it out that the Minister was quoting figures from a narrow was the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for four-week period in which bad weather had caused Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle), our shadow flooding and brought down overhead wires. East Coast spokesperson on transport, had been raising the issue is powerless to prevent such incidents, and responsibility and challenging the Government on the proposals, given for subsequent delays lies with the infrastructure manager, what had happened with the west coast main line. The Network Rail. In fact, according to the moving annual 1117 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1118 average punctuality figures, which offer a more balanced the public sector, any profits it makes are available to picture, East Coast is in the top three of the seven the Treasury and all of us as citizens of this country and long-distance franchises. taxpayers. I am concerned that talking down East Coast to Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ justify the proposed refranchising will damage morale Co-op): I congratulate my hon. Friend and neighbour at the company. That is most unfair, because staff and and those who signed the motion on securing the debate. management have worked extremely hard and achieved Is it not worth pointing out that, over the decades, a good results, with 1 million extra passengers carried in consistent cause of delays has been problems with the 2012 compared with 2009 and record passenger satisfaction. overhead wires? Is she aware that one of the main I hope that, when he responds to the debate, the Minister reasons those problems have arisen is that, back in the will correct his remarks on punctuality and premium ‘80s when the line was electrified under the previous payments; acknowledge that East Coast reinvests all its Conservative Government, the overhead wires system profits and can emulate private sector efficiency; and was installed on the cheap? Ever since, we have suffered congratulate staff and management on East Coast’s problems precisely because they did not do the good job success. I think that that will be an important message they ought to have done. to send back to the work force. Given East Coast’s success, it makes no sense to Sheila Gilmore: Indeed. I am not saying, and I do not prioritise its reprivatisation while other long-distance think any Opposition Member would say, that there is operators are being offered long extensions. Under the nothing that needs to be improved. Track and rolling Government’s initial franchising timetable, the new west stock can always be improved, and the current state of coast main line contract was due to start in October the track and overhead cables is a problem, but I would 2012. Under the new timetable, and as a result of argue that it would be a problem for any operator. That prioritising East Coast, the current operator of the west is not what lies behind the Government’s proposal. coast main line, Virgin, will be offered a total of four and half years of extensions up to April 2017. Similarly, There is also the question of the premium payments. for the new Great Western contract, which was meant Again, I quote the Minister, this time at Transport to start in April this year, the operator, First Group, is questions on 25 April, when he said that being offered three years of extensions up to July 2016. “the premium that the east coast main line pays to the Treasury is less than that paid by the west coast main line.”—[Official Report, Let us look again at another reason the Minister gave 25 April 2013; Vol. 561, c. 995.] for prioritising the east coast main line over others. He said that the line In fact, a recent report from the Office of Rail Regulation suggests that, in 2011-12, the Government received “connects industries in the north with commerce in the south, provides cross-border services to Scotland and helps to drive the £156 million in net franchise payments from the operator development of tourism and the success of Edinburgh and Leeds of the west coast main line and £177 million from East as key financial centres outside London. That is why it is at the Coast—the opposite of what the Minister asserted. forefront of our new rail franchising programme”.—[Official Report, 5 June 2013; Vol. 563, c. 252WH.] Mr Stewart Jackson: The hon. Lady is making a I accept all those things, although many of them can be typically eloquent speech, but does she not agree that it said about other rail lines. is apposite to mention, in the spirit of fairness and It is important for business that we have a good, transparency, that the track access charges for National strong railway service on the east coast main line. I am Express were significantly higher—£210 million, I regularly accompanied on my weekly commute by an understand, rather than the £92 million now charged to increasing number of business travellers, many of whom the operator? work in my city’s sizeable banking sector. Those people have often been attracted away from short-haul flights Sheila Gilmore: I think the important thing to bear in by East Coast’s excellent new first class offer, which in mind is that the service is not failing in the ways the the long term could benefit our environment. Business Minister said it was. If a Government propose a policy, travellers are also attracted by the new services that have it has to be based on the right evidence and not on an been introduced, including a later evening service and inaccurate interpretation of the situation. an earlier morning service, which enable people who want, or have, to travel to London for business meetings Let me now talk about what East Coast does with its to do so by rail in a way that was not possible before. profits. In the previous debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough pointed out that whereas However, the west coast main line and the Great private operators are obliged to pay dividends, public Western line are also important for business. The west operators can reinvest all their profits back into the coast main line connects five of the seven largest service, which in East Coast’s case has amounted to conurbations in Britain, and Great Western serves Bristol, more £40 million since 2009. One of the criticisms that Cardiff and the prosperous Thames valley, so the claim has been made in the past and might still be levelled that the Government have decided to prioritise the east now at a public operator is that, because the dead hand coast main line because of its importance to business of bureaucracy lies on it, such an operator cannot be as does not really stack up. At least, it is not a reason for efficient and as fleet of foot as a private sector operator, prioritising the east coast main line over the other but it is true to say that East Coast is organisationally services that were previously due for refranchising. distinct from the Department for Transport. It is staffed By deferring proper franchise competition on these by railway professionals and is therefore able to take the other lines in favour of extensions, the damage done to best of a private sector company in terms of efficiency, business on those routes could well outweigh any benefit innovation and entrepreneurialism, but because it is in accrued by prioritising the reprivatisation of the east 1119 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1120

[Sheila Gilmore] 2.36 pm coast main line, because extending those franchises Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): I speak involves little or no competition. It is likely to cost not only as the representative of the fine railway town franchises a lot while failing to deliver any improvements of Peterborough, but as a member of the Public Accounts in service. Committee, which has looked at different aspects of rail travel in recent years, including most recently the west It also leaves the Government in a weak bargaining coast main line franchising process, and as a commuter. position with the franchise operators by offering them Like the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), those franchises without competition. After all, one of I travel frequently, although I am not always as familiar the reasons the Government would no doubt give for with the timetables as I should be. One Wednesday a wanting to franchise is to have competition that would few weeks ago I was running very fast through the drive innovation and improvement. However, as far as brand spanking new, recently refurbished King’s Cross the other lines are concerned, it is more or less a case of station in order to catch the 8 o’clock train. I clambered giving the operators an extension. on board only to find after it departed that it was a fast The only bargaining chip that the Government appear service to York. I passed various Labour MPs in first to have is to call in East Coast’s parent company, class, while holding my standard ticket in hand, and Directly Operated Railways, presumably as some kind then saw my hon. Friend the Member for York Outer of threat to the franchise operator, so that if it does not (Julian Sturdy). He asked what I was going to do, and I settle for a reasonable sum the line might be given over said I would have to get off at York and go back to to Directly Operated Railways. That seems rather odd, Peterborough. With typical sympathy and pithy Yorkshire from a Government who are telling us that they do not wit, he said, “I hope you’ve written to me to say you’re want rail lines to be operated in that way. going to be in my constituency”—although I think it was probably the constituency of the hon. Member for Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I have been York Central (Hugh Bayley) that I was visiting. listening carefully to the hon. Lady’s argument, but I am afraid that I have lost the thread a bit. Will she This debate gives us an opportunity to look specifically clarify whether she is opposed to the refranchising of at the major infrastructure challenges facing the east the east coast main line in principle, or does she simply coast main line. I will focus not on a sterile argument want it to be held back for a certain length of time so about private being bad and public being good, but on that other franchises can be retendered, which is what the challenges and opportunities we face in looking at she seems to be arguing for? public policy on that line. In the past 10 years we have seen a 43% rise in passenger demand. By 2031 there will Sheila Gilmore rose— be a capacity gap of 1,500 seats in the busiest morning hour on suburban services into King’s Cross. Indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We journeys from Peterborough and Cambridge are expected did say that the hon. Lady would speak for 10 to to rise by as much as 20% by 2016. I think it is fair to say 15 minutes, but she has now been going for 19, and it that, irrespective of our party or our views on the debate looks like she still has a ream of paper to get through. I about rail privatisation, we all have a common interest, feel sure that she will be coming to the end shortly. on behalf of our constituents who commute, whether from Scotland, Yorkshire or Cambridgeshire, in safer, cleaner and more punctual trains and in value for Sheila Gilmore: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. money. I would certainly argue for keeping East Coast in public ownership. The point I am trying to make is that It would be unfair and churlish not to concede the even in terms of the Government’s justification for what progress we have seen in Peterborough. New work has they are doing and their timetable, it does not make begun and is due to be completed next year. We have financial sense. Therefore, it will not make financial three new platforms and platform extensions for the sense for the effectiveness of this country’s railways, or new Thameslink trains and the new inter-city trains. We indeed for our financial position. That is an important have a new island platform and a new freight loop. The point. It raises the question of why the east coast main station has been remodelled over the past few years, and line is being refranchised at this point. we have 150 new, safe and secure cycle racks to help to develop Peterborough as a local transport infrastructure If the Government’s decision had been based purely hub. on a view that East Coast had been performing badly in the public sector, which I know has been said—I hope I It is vital that I make the point that Peterborough is have show that it is not the case—it might have been an dependent on the railway. Indeed, it is integral to the imperative for turning East Coast around, but that is financial and economic viability of my constituency, not the point. I think that we have to ask, yet again, why given that it is 47 minutes away from central London this is happening. Why should we take a service that is and King’s Cross. I was delighted to welcome the Minister performing well and put it out to franchise, with all the to Peterborough station last autumn to open, with disruption that will cause, and potentially for no gain? Network Rail, the reconfigured, remodelled station. I hope that the Minister will address some of the key We have to concentrate on value for money, which is points that I have already raised but that were not fully a very important issue in the private-public debate. An addressed the last time we debated it—punctuality, East Coast train season ticket costs my constituents premium payment and the success of East Coast—because £6,888 a year—£7,472 with a travel card—which is I am sure that he would not want to be accused of about 25% of the average annual salary in Peterborough. putting ideology ahead of the interests of passengers A First Capital Connect season ticket costs £5,800 a and taxpayers. year and £7,000 with a travel card. 1121 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1122

Putting partisanship aside, the current provider of the concept of public ownership, most of the travelling the service has done a good job, and I think that the public—70% of them—and even those of them who Minister and the Secretary of State have conceded as vote Conservative, support the idea of renationalising much. It would be unfair not to concede that it has the railway industry. returned £640 million to the Exchequer by way of premiums since 2009—£187 million in the last financial Mr Jackson: If it is such a popular idea, why has the year. The staff on East Coast trains at Peterborough do hon. Gentleman’s party not put it in its manifesto? Why a superb job and I know many of them. They are in 13 years did it not repeal the Railways Act 1993 and hard-working, decent people with a public sector ethos go back to the good old days of British Rail, which did and a commitment to doing a very good job. I am very not get us to our destination very often or on time? proud that we have people who do that, even when the things that go wrong are not their fault, but that of Network Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman Rail. They always smile and try to explain what has give way? happened. Nevertheless, the situation is not perfect. It is only Mr Jackson: Let me make some progress and I will fair to say that East Coast is the worst performing train give way to the hon. Gentleman shortly. company in terms of punctuality. [HON.MEMBERS: “No!] The Labour party has to bear some responsibility for It is true. Only 82.8% of East Coast services arrived on the series of events that culminated in the current time in the period up to 31 March 2013, compared with situation. As in so many areas, this Government are 97% of services provided by c2c, which is owned by having to tackle that legacy. The Labour Government National Express and is the best performing train operating should have been more flexible with Sea Containers and company. Hon. Members may groan, but those are the Great North Eastern Railway, which was a very popular facts and we have to agree on them in order to improve provider: it had good staff, good management and was the service. well liked. Obviously, it was undermined—this was out of its control—by the parlous financial situation of Sea Hugh Bayley: The hon. Gentleman will know that the Containers, but the previous Labour Government was Government’s official timing period does not pick one pretty inflexible and allowed National Express to overbid month or two months as he has done, but considers the hugely and deliver a poor level of service. I think that situation over one year, and over one year East Coast the National Express management team is pretty hopeless. has performed substantially better than the operator on In fairness, the Labour Government did not have much the west coast, which is the best comparator. chance or choice to do anything differently at that stage. Nevertheless, unless Labour gives an unambiguous Mr Jackson: I think that is semantics. I made it clear commitment to renationalisation across the network, that I was talking about the 12 months to 31 March old Labour hon. Gentlemen will be whistling in the 2013. If the hon. Gentleman wants to write to me to wind. take issue with me, that is fine. Ian Mearns: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr Jackson: No, I must make some progress, because Mr Deputy Speaker will reproach me otherwise. Mr Jackson: No, I want to make some progress, but I It is worth mentioning that, in terms of premium, will give way later to the hon. Gentleman, whom I know National Express paid £338 million to the Treasury has a special interest in the subject. between 2007 and 2010. It was not a basket case. It ran The Labour Government accepted that public service into difficulties as a direct result of the economic crisis provision by this train operating company was always and the less than benign economic circumstances, but it going to be a short-term expedient because of a special did pay in. As I have already told the hon. Member for set of circumstances on the east coast main line. As the Edinburgh East, the track access charges were significantly Minister has said, in order to leverage key, private sector higher for National Express than they are for the current capital, it is important that we have a new, long-term company. private partner to innovate and drive up standards on I welcome the improvements in control period 4, the east coast main line. which covers 2009 to 2014, including the new platform 0 It is all very well for Lord Adonis to have a road-to- at King’s Cross, the junction remodelling and in particular Damascus conversion. Obviously, being in opposition the removal of the major bottlenecks between Huntingdon concentrates one’s mind, but when he was a Minister he and Peterborough and the overall budget of £240 million. spoke out strongly for private sector provision on this I think we all welcome the new inter-city express trains, particular line. I challenge the Labour party: is its extra seats and the replacement of the slam-door rolling policy now wholesale renationalisation of the railways, stock, which will come on stream in due course. or is that just for the east coast main line? I know that I am a fair-minded person, so I will admit that there the hon. Member for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell) would have been mistakes in the franchising process. I challenged definitely give me a clear answer, but I am not sure that the Secretary of State about this in Transport questions he and the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian a few months ago and the Public Accounts Committee Greenwood) would have a meeting of minds on the issue. looked at the issue, specifically on the west coast main line, in February and identified some key things. There Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): The hon. was a failure to follow due procedures and, essentially, a Gentleman is being generous in giving way. Although failure of culture. There were Chinese walls between the he is ridiculing us on the Labour Benches for supporting permanent secretary and the franchise and procurement 1123 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1124

[Mr Stewart Jackson] Sunderland, Hartlepool, Halifax, Hull and Bradford. All those places have seen a significant boost to their teams, which seemed strange and is unusual in the civil economic footprint and their direct access to markets. service. There was also a failure of oversight, with no In the course of the public consultation on open access, one person being in charge of oversight and having we need to consider the benefits to local economies and, responsibility for the franchising process from beginning ultimately, to the taxpayer. Hitherto, the Office of Rail to end. Regulation and the Department for Transport have set In July 2011, the Public Accounts Committee published their face against open access and have been inflexible a report on Network Rail. Network Rail is an integral in the design of the franchise regime. part of any debate about the east coast main line and its In conclusion, 20 years on from the Railways Act 1993, future. The Committee found that Network Rail was I believe that privatisation has been a success. Labour still less efficient than comparator organisations in Europe, will not reverse it in government if it wins the next but it did not know why. The Committee also found general election. The review of the franchise regime that the system of penalties and bonuses that were gives the industry an opportunity to facilitate more meant to drive improvements in efficiency were not competition, more investment in our railways, more doing so. Because it is an overly complex industry, the choice, and greater value for money and efficiency for risk of poor value for money and inefficiency is endemic. our constituents. Ministers should seize this chance Those were the key lessons of the PAC report. while they can. There is a need to impose clear objectives on train operating companies to avoid overcrowding, or bear the 2.54 pm costs of overcrowding. I am not convinced that the Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): I understand Department for Transport has addressed that important there was a good debate in Westminster Hall—it is a issue adequately. We need more clarity on the link pity I missed it. I had to be away, but I am here today, between fares and new passenger places and on the and if the Minister cannot understand Geordie I will balance of costs between the taxpayer and the passenger. try to speak in plain English—he does not seem to be In its contribution to the debate about franchising, listening to anybody on the Geordie side anyway. I will through the Brown report and the McNulty report, be very slow so that he can understand exactly what I Passenger Focus has suggested some simple things that am saying. would improve the passenger experience, including right My hon. Friend—he is a friend of mine and I have time performance information; better ticket information; known him for a long time in the House—the Member making restrictions simpler and more apparent on ticket for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) made some valid points machines; and having performance indicators for the at the beginning of his contribution, but he got a bit line of route and not just for the franchise as a whole. sluggish. I want to get to the bones of the issue. I will Those are simple things, but they would make the not go on, because I know other Members want to experience of our constituents who travel to the north speak, but we must get to the bones of this, and we have of England, Scotland or London much better. to know why. I will finish my remarks by talking a little about If we look back, Great North Eastern Railway was a competition and open access. I welcome the consultation good firm; it tried but got unstuck with that container paper that was published this month, “On-rail competition: thing and there was a bit of a mess, but in all fairness it Consultation on options for change in open access”. walked away, threw the keys on the line and another Open access is an important issue that we need to look private company went off the rails with the north east at. The east coast main line is a good example of open rail link. Then we had National Express, which was access. It has brought significant benefits to parts of the hopeless. It should have stuck with what it is good at, network. Only a small part of the passenger rail network although I do not think it is very good at driving buses is open to competitive pressures. On the east coast main either. It came in and made a right mess of things. line, two non-subsidised open access operators, Grand All we have to do—I do not know whether the Central Trains and First Hull Trains, compete with the Minister knows this, but we do—is talk to the workers franchiser. They have shown that competition leads to on the trains. They will say which the bad company was: more journeys, higher revenues for the train companies, National Express. The workers are happy now. Last lower fares, and more and happier passengers. week they told me that they are happy with the not-for-profit The Centre for Policy Studies publication in March system. I will not say nationalisation—I wouldn’t dare!—it showed that passenger journeys increased by 42% at is a not-for-profit company. They are happy. I said, stations that enjoy rail competition, compared with “Don’t say that. If the Minister hears you’re happy, 27% at those without it; that revenue increased by 57% that’ll be the excuse he wants to privatise it. You canna at those with competition, against 48% at those without have workers being happy, can we? Even the management it; and that average fares increased by only 11% at is happy, and we canna have them being happy neither.” stations with competition, compared with 17% at stations So I told the workers not to say they were happy too without it. So the franchise holder faces competition regularly, as that will be an excuse for the Tories to do it and still pays an increased premium to the Government, in—[Interruption.] The Minister may laugh, but let us as East Coast has done. Open access competition has put the facts down. National Express lost the taxpayer led to more routes and more high-speed access to new £55 million. I am not sure of the figure for GNER, but I locations, including in London. am sure it was some—I do not know what it was, but it As a one nation Conservative—I suppose we are all was taxpayers’ money. one nation now, whether one nation Labour or one Week after week I hear the Tories come to the Dispatch nation Conservative—I think that it is important that Box and start talking about how they are the custodians we have good transport infrastructure to places such as of the taxpayer. “We believe in the taxpayer. We are 1125 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1126 here to save them money.” Well, I have to laugh. We company.” I expect that to happen in a few years. I’ll now have a not-for-profit company that has made the most probably not be here, but never mind—I’ll be taxpayer £600 million in four years and invested £40 million watching from my granddad seat. in itself. What is wrong with making a profit and The Minister has got to be listening carefully to what putting it back into the Treasury coffers for the taxpayer? the people are saying. This is important. We hear what The Government are the custodians of the taxpayer they are saying, and they are saying they want the and are saving them money by cutting welfare, hospitals, company to remain as it is. They are satisfied with the legal aid and everything else—that is what they tell line. I travel on it every week, like most other Members everybody in the newspapers and on television. The from the north-east of England and Scotland, and it is Government are saving the taxpayer. There are also the a very good line. It is always on time. Very rarely, there tax alliance people, the hidden people, who I think are will be a couple of minutes here, a couple of minutes backed by the Tories—the tax alliance party, or whatever there, and of course sometimes something happens on it is. [HON.MEMBERS: “The TaxPayers Alliance”] The the line, as happens on all rail lines—a tree might fall TaxPayers Alliance. I have not heard a squeak out of it down or a line might go down. It happens from time to yet. I have never heard it say, “Oh wait a minute. The time. Those things cannot be helped. But what is more taxpayer is getting money back, and the Treasury fund important is that the workers are very happy, the company this company. This must be good for taxpayers.” No, it is doing well and contributing, and I think it is an is keeping very quiet. I wonder why. absolute disgrace if we give this back to the private My second point is about why we want to privatise a entrepreneurs, who, let’s face it, made a mess of it in the not-for-profit company that is doing very well. I have an first place. idea—actually, I have a few ideas. My mind works in funny ways. I know the Tory party slush bucket is going around somewhere and I wonder who is contributing to 3.2 pm it. I would like to try to find out, get my sniffer dogs on Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): it and look to see who is putting into the Tory slush A couple of weeks ago at Transport Question Time I bucket. We will find out later, when the names come asked about the timetable for the re-letting of the franchise, out, who will get the franchise—[Interruption.] Well, I and I received a clear, extremely positive answer. I was will put my money on now, and I bet it is Goody told it would not be long before the franchise was let Two-Shoes. I bet he gets the franchise. again. I want to talk about two areas: public—or not public— Hon. Members: Who’s Goody Two-Shoes? ownership, and the franchise itself. Perhaps unusually among my colleagues, I was against the privatisation of Mr Campbell: He’s Branson, that’s who. He’ll be the our railways, not because I had a fond memory of man who puts the money in the slush bucket, and he’ll British Rail. I used to catch the train to school in be the man who the Tories get to run north-east rail. Bradford every day, and it was not a pleasant experience. That is a fact, and I hope that people will remember Parts of British Rail were good, but parts of it were not, what I have said. and overall the customer experience was poor. I remember As I have said before, the company has contributed an advertising campaign at the time saying, “We’re £600 million to the taxpayer, to the Treasury. Its subsidy getting there.” It was launched to general ridicule from from the taxpayer was 1% for various items and things the public, who obviously knew better. It was not it did on the east coast main line, as against the west because I thought there was an important principle coast main line, which gets a subsidy of 37%. Hon. between public and private ownership. Across the world, Members can see the difference, and perhaps they can we can see examples of successful railways in both see why Branson might have an eye on the east coast public and private ownership. I simply thought it would main line, because although he made a mess of the west be hard to bring in effective competition. coast main line, the Tories made a mess of the franchise When it came to managing our railways, there was a for him, so they had to give it to him again. He will have sense that we were managing decline, and in many ways his eye on this company and he will want to run it to get of course we were: customers were choosing other that money. modes of travel. I have checked the data on this. I am When something is privatised, the money has got to sure the Minister will be aware, but I might take the go somewhere. The company makes money. It has shown opportunity to remind him that when our railways were how to run a rail link, and it has shown companies how nationalised—I am talking not about one year’s or one to do it, and I am sure Branson knows that, and he will month’s comparison, but about decades of data—more be saying, “Ooh, there’s £600,000. My shareholders are than 1,200 million annual journeys were made each going to be very happy. Instead of that money going to year, and by the time of privatisation, that figure had the Treasury, it could go to the shareholders in business.” declined steadily, year on year, to 700 million. There I can see how he is thinking and I can see how the Tories were a series of huge declines and the data were bad, are thinking. They are saying, “Hey, we’ve got a company however we look at them. here making money for the taxpayer. It should be the I changed my mind about rail privatisation for two shareholders getting the dividends and the managers reasons, the first being passenger growth. Again, it is getting massive bonuses.” I can see them coming in with slightly geeky, but I will remind the Minister of the their massive bonuses and the money just draining data. Since privatisation, passenger numbers have gone away, and they’ll most probably throw the keys on the from 700 million to 1,300 million-plus, which is a fantastic line again and say, “Sorry, we’ve made a mess of this. change. Level of usage on the rail network is now We took too much money out. You’ll have to get the comparable with that in the 1920s. Privatisation saw a taxpayer to bail it out again, with another not-for-profit change of decades of usage, which was a good thing. 1127 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1128

[Andrew Jones] 3.9 pm

I want to encourage more use of public transport, with Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): Let me start by more freight off the roads. The second reason I changed saying something that I think everybody in the Chamber my mind was personal experience. While travelling around will agree with. The east coast main line is an absolutely the country, I could see a steady change of attitude in vital economic artery, pumping the lifeblood of our the businesses towards being more focused on their economy—jobs, investment and growth—through all customers—improving customer experience and developing the regions and cities that it serves from London to new services and timetables. The customer became more Edinburgh. That is why this debate is so important. It is central to the industry. not a technical or ideological debate about how the service should be run; it is a debate about how the I agree with many of the comments made by hon. railways can assist economic recovery in our regions. Members on both sides of the House about the quality That is the question we need to debate today. and friendliness of the East Coast staff, which is absolutely first class. I use it, as I am sure do all the speakers in this We had a similar debate in Westminster Hall two debate. weeks ago, in which many hon. Members spoke. I have some sympathy for the Minister: he was left with absolutely no time to respond to the many questions that were Grahame M. Morris: You don’t use first class, though, asked. However, we have more time today. To recap do you? briefly, I would like to pose two questions that I posed a fortnight ago to which the Minister was unable to Andrew Jones: No, I do not use first class—the hon. respond. Gentleman is absolutely right. Extreme caution is required for any Member using first class, and I do not risk it. First, if the Government go ahead with refranchising, will the headquarters of the new service be based in The question is not whether the line should be in York? The headquarters currently provide over 200 jobs, private or public ownership; it is about getting the but they act as a sheet anchor for thousands of other franchise right. I want to see the franchise taken forward jobs with railway engineering companies, suppliers and promptly, with customers right at the heart of the for Network Rail’s operation of the east coast main line, railway. That means listening to what they want and which employs more people than the train operating responding to it. For my own area, in the past three company. The Government are legally able to make that years we have seen the first direct London to Harrogate a condition of the franchise and there is a precedent. service for 30 years. I remind the House that this service When the train operating company last changed hands, was removed under nationalisation, alongside the I asked my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting downgrading of services for Hull, Bradford, Cleethorpes (Sadiq Khan), the then Minister, whether he would give and Teesside. The new service is fantastic. Our area has a commitment to ensure stability by keeping the an important visitor economy and is hosting part of the headquarters in York. He said: Tour de France next year. “The headquarters to which my hon. Friend referred are in York. I can reassure him that when the holding company”— Mark Lazarowicz: I might be wrong, but is the service that is, East Coast— to Harrogate not an East Coast rail service? Does that not show that the operator is able to be flexible and “takes over the running of the contract later on this year, the respond to customer demand and passenger needs? headquarters will stay in York.”—[Official Report, 1 July 2009; Vol. 495, c. 431.] Andrew Jones: Of course it is an East Coast service. For the sake of stability for the business now at a time In some ways the operator has responded and I am of economic fragility, will the current Minister make a quite happy to reflect that. I just think that more can be similar commitment? done and the hon. Gentleman’s comment does not Secondly, I asked the Minister whether the Government really address why our railways saw such a dramatic will do what they say they will do and consult users of turnaround after privatisation. Opposition Members the service about what they want. It was reported in have had no comments whatever to make about how we Modern Railways in May that the Department for Transport have had decades and decades of decline in passenger would take into account passengers’ views in relation to numbers. Privatisation occurred and the situation changed the train operating companies. Will the Department utterly. I am sure the Minister has noticed that no therefore commission an independent body to conduct Opposition Member has said a word about the change a survey to see whether passengers want the service to in passenger numbers from the mid-1990s onwards. be taken away from East Coast? A number of Members I would like to see the new franchise introduce more on both sides of the House have talked about the services for Harrogate. I am sure that representations performance of East Coast, praising the company. We will be made nearer the time. Flexibility will need to be know that it has returned more money to the Government built in so that we can allow the operator, whoever wins in premium payments—more than £540 million so far— the franchise, to respond to demand. I hope there will than any other franchise holder on the line. We also be new rolling stock, as some of the trains on the service know that it is more efficient than its predecessor and is are from the 1970s, and line investment. It is worth providing value for money for the Government and the noting that new rolling stock and line investment would taxpayer. change the cost base of the franchise, and start to The hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) is change some of the numbers that Opposition Members a fair-minded man. He and I should sit down together have been keen to quote this afternoon. I urge the and look at the statistics. However, to quote Alan Minister to press on, because that will mean more Whitehouse, a former BBC transport correspondent, innovation and more success for our industry. on the official measure of punctuality—the percentage 1129 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1130 of trains that reach their destination less than 10 minutes estimates that each one of those bidding for a major late over the period of a year—the east coast main line franchise such as these spends between £10 million and under East Coast’s management did better than the £13 million in pursuit of its bid. Those costs ultimately west coast main line under Virgin’s management. If we come back to the passengers in the form of higher fares. compare the two in terms of trains that actually arrive Two weeks ago, in the debate in Westminster Hall, I on time—that is to say, less than 60 seconds late—East argued that East Coast should continue to run the Coast scores 61% for punctuality, whereas Virgin on the service, not indefinitely but for the period of a full west coast main line scores 49%. franchise, so that it could be an effective public sector comparator. We have seen today in The Northern Echo Mr Stewart Jackson: I had no wish to cast aspersions that Lord Adonis, who was Secretary of State in 2009 on the current operators, but the hon. Gentleman knows when East Coast was given the job of rescuing the that Passenger Focus, for instance, said in response to service, shares that view. It is of course consistent with the Brown review of franchising last year that the what he said in 2009, which was that the service should determinants of punctuality were too loose and should be run by a public sector contractor, East Coast, but be tightened up anyway. However, I concede that there not indefinitely. I am not arguing for an indefinite are extraneous circumstances under the auspices of arrangement; I am asking for a period equivalent to a Network Rail that affect performance—such as the private franchise so that we can compare like with like. gentleman on a bridge at Walton in Peterborough last That is still my view. night who detained me by half an hour. I have been thinking about the matter further, however, Hugh Bayley: It is useful that the hon. Gentleman and I put it to the Minister that we already have a public says that we should listen to Passenger Focus, because it sector comparator. By the end of this financial year, currently gives the East Coast service the highest level East Coast will have run the service for four years, of satisfaction that it has received since Passenger Focus returned about £800 million to the Treasury and provided starting doing its surveys in 1999. an improved service. If the Government are hellbent on refranchising, will they commission an independent body—perhaps the National Audit Office—to analyse Ian Mearns: The hon. Member for Peterborough the bids that they receive and compare them with East (Mr Jackson) has just highlighted one of the problems Coast’s performance? If none of the bidders that responds that franchise holders like East Coast face. They are to the Minister’s tendering exercise can produce a robust reliant on Network Rail and on the infrastructure if case to show that it can deliver a better and safer service their trains are to run on time. Extraneous issues—including, with lower fares and a bigger financial return to the unfortunately, people trying to commit suicide—are Government than East Coast is currently providing, he completely beyond their control. Having said that, they should keep the service with East Coast. do very well in spite of all that. The Government seem to be hellbent on refranchising, Hugh Bayley: My hon. Friend makes a good point. but we know that refranchising against a short timetable is unwise, to say the least. The Laidlaw inquiry, which looked into the fiasco of the collapsed west coast main John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab) rose— line franchising process, came up with this recommendation: Hugh Bayley: Our speeches are time limited and we “I recommend that the Department for Transport ensures that a credible timeline, with reference to the complexity of the procurement get no injury time for interventions, so I must make involved, is assessed and agreed at the inception”, some progress. and he argued that this timeline should provide time for The good performance that East Coast has achieved contingencies, and for comprehensive quality and is all the more surprising because it has not been given commercial reviews. The Brown report, a rather wider the security of tenure of a 10 to 15-year franchise that one on the franchising system, which was also commissioned the comparator company on the west coast has. In fact, following the west coast collapse, proposed a detailed East Coast has not really known from one month to the 24-month timeline for running a franchising process. next where it stands or whether it will continue to run the service or not. Last year, the Department for Transport Let us look at what happened with the west coast asked the chief executive of East Coast, Karen Boswell, franchising process—the rushed, bungled and failed to prepare a five-year plan for the future of her company. west coast franchising process. The invitation to tender She submitted that plan in January this year. In March, was put out in May 2011. The franchise was awarded to an interview with Karen Boswell by Roger Ford was FirstGroup in August 2012—15 months later—with a published in Modern Railways, in which she set out her view to starting the service in December 2012, 19 months plans, and there was no hint of privatisation at that later. Both Laidlaw and Brown said it was too short a point. So what has changed? timetable. Franchising is not a low-cost option. The National What, then, are the Government proposing for the Audit Office report on the east coast National Express east coast main line franchise? They intend to put a failure estimated that that had cost the Department for notice in the Official Journal of the European Union, Transport between £330 million and £380 million. The which I take as a starting point, in October this year, Department had expected to receive that money from with an invitation to tender in February 2014 and with the franchisee up to 2012 but had not done so. The the contract being awarded in October 2014—not in 15, funds then had to be recovered from other Department 19 or 24 months, as proposed in the Brown review, but for Transport budgets. The aborted west coast main line in just 12 months. The franchise is intended to start in franchising exercise cost the taxpayer £55 million. Alan February 2015, conveniently timed just before the next Whitehouse, the former BBC transport correspondent, general election, which would be 16 months after the 1131 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1132

[Hugh Bayley] spectrum. I think that the logic of the arguments for allowing the east coast main line to remain in public process started, as opposed to the 19 months from hands is powerful. The Minister likes to call me a invitation to tender through to the intended start on the dinosaur for believing that public services should be run west coast franchise. for the benefit and in the interests of the public. The Government are proposing to do this east coast [Interruption.] Members will see, if they check the franchise not only in a more rushed and hurried way record, that the Minister called me a dinosaur during a than was done with the west coast franchise—the failed debate in Westminster Hall. west coast franchise—but in a substantially shorter I support the renationalisation of the railways, especially period than was proposed by each of the two reports when we see Directly Operated Railways delivering a they set up to investigate why the west coast franchising better service and returning more money to the taxpayer process had failed. When will the Minister’s party ever than the private sector—which, let us not forget, has learn? This looks like a fire sale, rushed through before failed to deliver twice on the east coast main line. If that the 2015 general election. makes me a dinosaur, so be it. However, I think that we I served on the Bill Committee that scrutinised what should look at the recent polling evidence. The average is now the Railways Act 1993—the legislation that finding is that 70% of the public regularly support calls introduced the privatisation of our railways. I have seen for the railways to be run publicly, although some polls it all before. In Committee, the Government of the day produce larger percentages. I think that those people said that they would franchise rail services to train would be offended by the contempt and, indeed, total operating companies, but that they had no intention of disregard that the Minister and his party have shown privatising the railway infrastructure of track and signalling. for their views and the concern that they have expressed Then, after the Bill went through, the Government about the failure of the privatised rail system. [Interruption.] changed their mind and decided to rush through— It is certainly a failure when compared with the success steamroller through—the privatisation of the rail track that the publicly run public service operator has been by creating a body called Railtrack. We know that this able to deliver on the east coast main line. If the body spectacularly and comprehensively failed. When it Minister will bear with me, I shall explain shortly why I collapsed, the Labour Government had to put together think that the system has been a failure, not least on a public sector rescue at considerable expense to the grounds of price. taxpayer. They created Network Rail—and we still have As other Members have already pointed out today, it as a not-for-profit company owned by guarantee, Directly Operated Railways has returned £640 million which does not have directors and does not pay dividends. to the Treasury in premium payments—I believe that We have a public sector body. £40 million of that has been invested in improving the Alan Whitehouse had this to say in the Yorkshire Post service—and it is estimated that it will have paid back just over a week ago: £800 million in premiums by April 2014. That is a tremendous success story, which should be noted by “Until just a few weeks ago, East Coast was to remain in the public sector for as far ahead as anyone could see. Suddenly, it is Government Members who malign the performance of up for grabs. Can it be a mere coincidence that the Transport public industries. Directly Operated Railways also receives Secretary…announces a re-franchising plan that would see East the lowest net subsidy: 1%, compared with an industry Coast trains returned to the private sector by the time of the next average of 32%. We should not forget that a shining election? Or a piece of blatant electioneering? It all smacks of a example of privatisation cost the public purse £4 billion similar desperation to that of the Major government’s ‘scorched a year in subsidy. earth’ policy of making rail privatisation a fait accompli before an election that he knew he would lose.” Let us consider the performance of National Express, the failing private operator. It returned only £370 million The Minister does not have to take it from me. He does in premium payments before turning its back on the not even have to take it from a well-respected transport franchise, leaving the taxpayer to face not only the correspondent like Mr Whitehouse. He need only look shortfall referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for at the history—his own party’s history—of what a Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell), but the disruption that it rushed privatisation on the railways led to last time his had caused. Incredibly, despite National Express having party was incumbent at the time of an election. I say to failed to deliver on its commitments, the Government him, “Slow down, even if you believe that reprivatisation will not stop it or other failed operators bidding for the is the right thing to do. Do not make the same mistakes rail franchise, should they decide to go ahead. In a that you made with the west coast main line. Take your written answer to my good and hon. Friend the Member time. I have no doubt that if you win the next general for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), the Minister election you will go ahead with it, but if you do it as a confirmed: fire sale, it will be a disaster not just for the railway, but for the economies of our regions that are served by it.” “National Express and its subsidiaries are permitted to submit for the pre-qualification process (PQQ) to run passenger rail services in all franchise competitions including the East Coast 3.25 pm Main Line.”—[Official Report, 3 June 2013; Vol. 563, c. 970W.] That is incredible. Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I congratulate those who managed to secure a debate that is very timely, Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): If the company given some of the announcements that have been made permitted to bid, surely its past record will be taken into lately. I also thank the Backbench Business Committee account? Is that not the way it will work? for allowing us time to discuss this important issue. The Government now have yet another opportunity Grahame M. Morris: I suspect the Minister may be to listen to the overwhelming majority of the British able to clarify the criteria, but judging by the answer he public, including people on both sides of the political gave my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North, 1133 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1134

I suspect that will not be the case. Past performance based in Germany, France and Holland to operate such does not seem to be an impediment, although perhaps it franchises, but not UK public sector companies. That should be—and perhaps the Minister will take more seems completely inconsistent. notice of such a suggestion from his own side. The hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) Whether in the public or private sector, companies gave some interesting statistics about the cost of season that fail to deliver on their commitments or promises to tickets. It is interesting to look at the costs in some the taxpayer should not be allowed to take over franchises European countries. Research shows that a 24-mile that they have shown they are not competent to run. It commute into Paris costs about £924 a year, a similar is not that National Express failed on one franchise and commute into Berlin costs some £700, and a similar is bidding for another; it has already failed to deliver on commute into Madrid costs £654. A similar commute the east coast line. into London costs £3,268 a year. How can anybody suggest that the privately operated service is a huge The public understandably have concerns about the success and stands international comparison? This follows Government position in relation to this matter, and a decade of inflation-busting fare increases which, although they must not reward failure. If the Minister goes ahead never welcome, are putting an unbearable strain on with the privatisation, how will he guarantee that any family budgets at a time of austerity, with wages frozen future operator awarded the east coast main line franchise and in many cases falling. will be able to fulfil its contract, and what assurances can he provide that the taxpayer will see a similar rate of I understand that the rail Minister is a regular user of return in respect of premium payments as they received the network—after being persuaded to swap his chauffeur- from Directly Operated Railways? It has been said that driven ministerial limousine for the train. Has he had a DOR is a not-for-profit service, but that is not quite chance to explain to other commuters exactly what true, as it is hugely profitable, but all the profits go to privatised rail has delivered for the taxpayer—other the taxpayer. That is the position, and I am sure various than the highest fares in Europe? It certainly has not private train operating companies would relish getting delivered investment. Sir David Higgins, the head of their hands on that level of turnover. Network Rail, has warned that it would take “30 years of continuous investment to ensure our railways get to the level of some of the European railways that we admire”. Mr Ronnie Campbell: I wonder who. Dividends to shareholders of the big five transport companies that are contracted to run the UK rail Grahame M. Morris: Yes, we can speculate about service have reached nearly £2.5 billion since 2000, and who might take on the franchise, but it is incredibly there are plenty of examples of excessive boardroom profitable and I am sure there will be no shortage of pay; some of the highest paid directors have received in takers. That money should be going into the Treasury at excess of £1 million. this time of austerity, however. However, East Coast and Directly Operated Railways offer a genuine alternative, with all profits being reinvested Mr Reid: I have been listening carefully to the hon. in services or in the Treasury—money which otherwise Gentleman’s speech, but I am still not sure whether he is would have been used as dividends for shareholders or arguing for the east coast main line to be operated by a bonuses for fat cats. According to the “Rebuilding Rail” publicly owned company permanently or just for a report, the cost of running the railway has more than temporary period that happens to be longer than the doubled in real terms since privatisation. It is estimated Government propose? that privatisation costs the equivalent of £1.2 billion a year—more than the cost of public ownership. Grahame M. Morris: I can give a direct answer to In the face of multiple market failures, higher costs to that: yes, I am arguing for permanent public ownership. the public in fares and subsidies, and lower premium I am in favour of directly delivered public services, and payments, there is nothing more ideological than the although I do not want to take up too much time, I have Minister and the Tory party remaining wedded to this some pretty powerful arguments on why that should be disastrous railway privatisation policy. I hope he will the case. listen to the concerns expressed today by Members, and by the British public, and end this failed franchise The hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough policy. (Andrew Jones) talked about competition. Even if someone could not support the entire network being in public Several hon. Members rose— ownership, I think a reasonable person might be able to say that, for reasons of having a comparator, we should Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I keep the very successful public provision through DOR, point out that we need to conclude Back-Bench speeches to act as a test and yardstick for us to assess how the in about the next 50 minutes, so if everybody is to get in, private sector is doing. Instead we have the preposterous speeches need to be a bit shorter and with not too many position of a failed private operator of the franchise not interventions. Then, nobody will be disappointed. being barred from bidding, but instead being allowed to rebid to operate it. The Government seem quite happy to allow that. 3.39 pm Another perversity is that the Government seem to Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): The east coast have this ideological, dogmatic hatred of nationalisation main line is vital in providing connections between and publicly provided services. They are against the Scotland, north-east England, Yorkshire, eastern England idea of a directly operated public service on the east and London. Liberal Democrats in government are coast. They are quite happy for public sector companies delivering a massive investment in rail infrastructure 1135 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1136

[Mr Alan Reid] partners are determined to place the passenger at the heart of the rail system and deliver better value for and are determined to put passengers at the heart of the money in the system following years of extreme inefficiency railway system. That is why, as part of this coalition under Labour. That is why we are delivering the biggest Government, we are investing £240 million in the east investment in our railways since the Victorian era. The coast main line between 2014 and 2019. east coast franchise and the new vehicles that are On 25 March, the coalition Government announced coming with it are an important part of that investment that the franchise for the east coast main line is due to package. be returned to the private sector in February 2015. Officials from the Department are meeting interested 3.43 pm parties, including Transport Scotland, to ensure that future changes to the east coast main line are co-ordinated Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): It is always a successfully.Part of the programme will be the establishment pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute of new vehicles for the inter-city east coast franchise, (Mr Reid), but it is more of a pleasure to follow my hon. which will replace the existing set of diesel-powered Friend—and namesake—the Member for Easington high-speed trains from 2018 onwards. (Grahame M. Morris). I know that that can sometimes be confusing, particularly when we speak consecutively. It is true that under the nationalised operating company, there has been an extended period of successful operation, I congratulate those hon. Members who are sponsoring but— the motion on their success in getting the Backbench Business Committee to agree to its being debated today, Sheila Gilmore: Will the hon. Gentleman confirm and particularly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member that the new rolling stock is not linked to the refranchise? for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), the lead sponsor. The whole House will be aware of her tenacity on this issue, and I commend her on her opening remarks. As Mr Reid: The Government are providing the money she mentioned, she is a regular user of the east coast for the new rolling stock. Yes, it is perfectly possible that main line service from Edinburgh Waverley to London if the railway was to continue under the directly operated King’s Cross, as I am. So we have both been made aware company that new rolling stock could still be provided. at first hand, as I am sure other hon. Members have, of Before the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila the benefits of the service to Scotland, the north-east of Gilmore) interrupted me, I said the word “but”, and I England, Yorkshire and beyond. I am sure that, like me, want to draw the House’s attention to one of the she appreciates the general reliability, frequency, excellent conclusions of the Brown review. It highlighted that any customer service and value for money the service provides significant delay in the resumption of the franchising to its passengers. process could have a negative effect on investments As a state-owned service, the ethos of putting the involving rolling stock, upgrades and expansion and customer first and ensuring the most effective and efficient could result in some international suppliers deciding to use of public resources is the prime objective of the make alternative investments outside the UK. company. Of course, private companies can be just as In a supporting letter from Mr Brown to the Transport good, but their first loyalty is to their shareholders, and Secretary, dated 31 December 2012, he wrote: any profits not reinvested go on share dividends, often “I have come to the conclusion that the franchising system is to the fat cats of the City of London. The difference not broken, but, on the contrary, it has made a major contribution with East Coast being a subsidiary of Directly Operated to Britain’s increasingly successful rail network. There is no Railways, a holding company owned by the Department credible case for major structural change.” for Transport, is that its surpluses are paid back to the That demonstrates that the operation of train services Exchequer. As Labour Members have said throughout indefinitely by the directly operated company is not an this debate, £800 million has been returned to the alternative to our system. Direct operation is a key part taxpayer since 2009. Moreover, East Coast has invested of the private franchising model, but it was only ever some £40 million in the service, including in infrastructure meant to be a short-term mechanism as a measure of and asset improvements. It also has the best punctuality last resort. there has been on the line since the service was privatised, We heard Labour Members arguing for the continuation and all passenger surveys and polling indicates that the of the directly operated model, but the Labour party is overwhelming majority of people are satisfied with the divided. By my count, we have two votes for nationalisation service and wish it to remain in public ownership. So for ever, one for nationalisation for an indefinite period why are the Conservative-led Government, supported, and, from the hon. Member for Edinburgh East, one as we have heard, by their compliant fellow travellers in for “Don’t know”. I do not think I received an answer the Liberal Democrats, intent on reprivatising what is to my intervention, but if she wishes to clarify that I am evidently a most successful, lucrative and popular public perfectly happy to give way to her a second time. The service? resumption of the franchise process should take place at a speed and pace that works for the Department and Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Will the allows it to make necessary improvements. That was one hon. Gentleman say why the preceding Labour of the key proposals of the Brown review and is why the Government’s policy was to reprivatise this service? Department will now ensure that no more than three to four franchise competitions are delivered per year in total. Graeme Morrice: We will hear shortly from the Labour Let me conclude by reiterating the commitment from Front-Bench spokesperson on what our policy is on this the Liberal Democrats, as part of the coalition Government, matter, but I know what it is and I concur with it: to the improvement of our railways. We and our coalition retaining this service in public ownership. 1137 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1138

Mr Reid: But the crux of the matter is this: is it public company to bid for it. Does he agree that as the Labour party policy that this service should remain in Minister has made it clear that the planned infrastructure public ownership for ever or simply for a temporary upgrade work on the east coast main line between 2014 period that happens to be longer than the one the and 2019 will be borne by Network Rail, that answers Government have set out? the question?

Graeme Morrice: As I have just mentioned, we will Graeme Morrice: Indeed. I am trying to expose the hear from our Front Bencher on this shortly. My own inconsistency in what the Minister has been saying. view is that this should be for an indefinite period, but Unless he can explain his position when he speaks later, the clear blue water between us and the Government on it remains unclear why all this private investment has this issue is that we support a successful public service, been deemed necessary at all. whereas the Liberal Democrats are as one with the The past, current and planned public investment into Conservatives in supporting the privatisation of this the east coast main line has been and continues to be service. We have to question the reason why. Has this highly effective. However, if further investment is required, been proposed for the right financial and service reasons, it could easily be provided by public means, given that or is there another, perhaps more partisan, explanation? the service returns far more to the Exchequer than it I wish to raise a relatively straightforward issue of receives in subsidy. Furthermore, given the thoroughly fact. In an answer to a recent parliamentary question, negative history of private involvement in the east coast the Minister of State said that investment in the east main line, it is highly probable that taxpayers will once coast main line’s infrastructure is not dependent on again be left to pick up the tab, as we have seen in so reprivatising passenger operations. He said: many other botched franchise deals, not least on the “Funding for the 2014-19 upgrade of the east coast main line west coast main line, if the east coast service is privatised. will be delivered through the Office of Rail Regulation approving In summary, the British taxpayer has funded the east a £240 million increase in the value of Network Rail’s regulatory coast main line service successfully since November access base. Network Rail may then borrow up to this amount to 2009, after 12 years of declining profits and eventual fund the upgrade works.”—[Official Report, 15 April 2013; Vol. 561, failure under both GNER and National Express. The c. 2W.] east coast service became hugely profitable almost However, he has since asserted otherwise on a number immediately after renationalisation and has returned its of occasions. For example, at the Transport Committee soaring profits to the Exchequer every year, with an meeting on 24 April he said: estimated total returned in excess of £800 million by the “What I think is important, looking to the future, is how you end of this financial year. make the needed and important investment in the East Coast It is unfathomable that the response of the Government Main Line to bring it up to scratch. You will be as aware as I am that part of the electrification is very antiquated and needs to be to this success, so quickly established after years of replaced and upgraded because it is causing significant problems failed management by the private sector, is to decide to the quality of service. I do not believe that keeping the East that this is a good time to give National Express a Coast Main Line in public ownership is the most effective and second chance. It is appalling that the Minister and swiftest way of getting that investment. I believe that returning his Department are so eager to overlook this clear the East Coast Main Line to a franchise operation offers the best demonstration of the high quality of our public rail opportunity to move forward. In addition, the Government and service management. Rather than continue with this the rail industry, through Network Rail, are continuing to invest charade, I suggest that the Minister should focus his in the East Coast Main Line, but we need to accelerate that and increase it.” efforts on sorting out the debacle of the west coast main line and other similar fiascos. Then, at Transport questions on 25 April, the Minister stated that It is ill-advised for the Government to create an issue out of nothing and waste resources in trying to solve a “yes, there will be taxpayers’ money involved in investing in the problem that is not there, when they already struggle to east coast main line, but, more importantly, the involvement of the private sector means that we can increase, over and above the deal with real problems and real issues, often of their taxpayers’ money, the money that can be invested in enhancing own making. I can only conclude that it is merely and improving the service for passengers.”—[Official Report, political dogma that is driving the agenda, which I hope 25 April 2013; Vol. 561, c. 995.] will ultimately be derailed. Despite a number of hon. Members raising this with the Minister in the debate a fortnight ago, he failed to Several hon. Members rose— address this point in his reply. Therefore I would be grateful if he could now state once and for all whether Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I any elements of replacing and upgrading the electrification need Members to speak for less than 10 minutes if on the east coast main line are dependent on the transfer everyone is to get in, so please watch the clock and of the operation of passenger services to the private remember that your colleagues are waiting to speak. I sector. Similarly, it would be helpful if he could explain call Andy McDonald. how this investment will be delivered more swiftly if reprivatisation takes place. Finally, can he provide more 3.54 pm detail of the increased investment, over and above the taxpayers’ money being put into the line, that would be Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): I will be delivered as a result of privatisation? brief, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate the hon. Members who secured this important debate. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): The passions that questions of democratic control My hon. Friend is making an excellent case to keep the arouse in all parts of the House are understandable, and line in the public sector and at the very least to allow a falling into dogmatic defence of the present or romanticised 1139 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1140

[Andy McDonald] The truth is that railways cannot be run for profit. British Rail was subsidised. Network Rail is subsidised. views of the past is a constant danger, but the main No railway in the world is not subsidised in some shape problem of franchising is not the money skimmed off or form. In that environment, train operating companies the top by the train operating companies—the money are simply one more player lobbying for a share of paid out in dividends was 2% of sales in 2012—or even taxpayers’ money. They are required to return a profit the massive fiscal drag caused by fragmentation, payments for their shareholders, but their profits are not won in to rolling stock leasing companies and the excess interest the marketplace; they are created by legislation. on Network Rail debt, paid for no other reason than to The efforts of train operating companies are not keep it off the public balance sheet. The biggest problem turned outward, focused on striving towards greater of franchising, which echoes through the McNulty efficiency or customer satisfaction; they are turned inward, report, the Brown report and every major policy discussion focused on ringing out as much subsidy as possible of the past 20 years, is that the debate about the future from the taxpayer. Fares cover, on average, only 65% of of rail in this country has become a debate about what the cost of the network, so all dividends are the result of colour the trains are. The real debate must be about Government largesse—and Governments have been more whether rail is a private enterprise or a public service. than generous. In the two years from September 2010 to The Minister himself has been caught in such narrow September 2012, Network Rail’s debt, for which the thinking, insisting time and again in Westminster Hall taxpayer is ultimately responsible, has increased by that Directly Operated Railways could not run a railway £4.1 billion. indefinitely, because it was not intended to do so when I would like to take this opportunity to praise the it was set up in the dim and distant days of 2009. With Department for Transport for resisting the self-defeating respect, though, what previous Transport Ministers austerity advocated by the rest of the coalition Government imagined DOR’s role to be is of no consequence. The and borrowing at very low interest rates to invest in question surely must be not whether it was intended to upgrading our national infrastructure. I also offer my run indefinitely, but whether it is capable of doing so. consolation for the fact that, in order to keep that off The tremendous success of East Coast demonstrates the Chancellor’s radar, the Department has had to that it is. Total premium plus operating profit amounted pretend that it is not Government debt and pay an to £647.6 million in the four years to 31 March 2013, additional £150 million a year in interest as a result. and as hon. Friends have pointed out, the total by the Surely now is the time for honesty. Private companies end of the term will be £800 million. That is more in in the rail sector do not spur innovation. They extract both cash and real terms than any previous franchisee value and are unnecessary, as East Coast shows. The on the line has achieved. All that money is available for investment in the railways is all Government money, reinvestment in our railway network. underwritten with Government debt. The current system is unsustainable, because Network Rail now spends Roberta Blackman-Woods: My hon. Friend is making more on servicing its debt than on maintaining and a powerful speech. Could not the Government, if they upgrading the network, and that debt is increasing. The wanted to, amend the Railways Act 1993 to enable East taxpayer paid for the service, pays for the service and Coast to bid for the franchise as a public company? will always pay for the service. It is only fair that they That might not be exactly what we want, but it would at get what they pay for. least help. Several hon. Members rose— Andy McDonald: My hon. Friend makes a good point. Such a leap of imagination—if people opened Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I their mind to other possibilities that are available—would am putting a nine-minute time limit on Back-Bench be welcome. speeches to ensure that the remaining three Members East Coast has achieved revenue growth of 9% over who wish to speak can do so. If there are interventions three full years, with 4.3% growth in 2012-13. Journey and compensation, it will take us longer to get there. numbers have increased from 18.1 million in 2009-10 to 19.1 million in 2012-13. All that has resulted in a 4.1 pm £40 million surplus. I was disappointed to hear Government Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): I congratulate my Members criticising the service East Coast provides, hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila when the record shows the contrary is true. Nine out of Gilmore) on securing this important and timely debate from 10 trains are on time, according to the latest public the Backbench Business Committee—I have to declare performance measure, and the national rail passenger an interest, because I sit on it. Like many colleagues, survey gives the service a 92% overall customer satisfaction given the recent history of the east coast main line and rating—the highest score of any franchise on the line privatisation, not to mention the present Government’s since records began in autumn 1999. Government Members’ failure on the west coast main line franchise, I am critical comments are therefore highly regrettable. deeply concerned about the Government’s plans and If East Coast remains in public hands indefinitely, it the impending privatisation of the east coast main line. will be to the benefit of passengers, communities and The Secretary of State for Transport’s announcement taxpayers. Several times in this course of this debate, the to start the tendering process for the east coast main idea has been floated that such an arrangement would line and nine further franchises paid no regard to public be more attractive than Ministers realise and that the interest. It will result in the return of a profitable rail public would find it engaging. More than that, it would service to private hands within the next two years. The mark a fundamental change in the thinking of the past plans are no doubt a recipe for disaster. We already 30 years—the economic voodoo that says that involving know that South West Trains, another private franchise, the private sector always, magically, creates benefits. is in operating difficulties. 1141 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1142

We have clearly established that Government Members forget that the east coast main line inherited this burden are in favour of state ownership of the railways. I am from the privately owned rail firms, Great North Eastern sure that the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) Railway and National Express. and the Minister of State, Department for Transport, There has been very little rolling stock investment on the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), are the line for many decades. There has been some in favour of state ownership, but not UK state ownership; refurbishment, but that was mainly on carriages that they are in favour of German, French or Dutch state were damaged following the tragic Hatfield and Selby company ownership of UK railways. Do we honestly rail crashes. The only way to run an effective rail service think for one moment that Angela Merkel would allow is to ensure that the infrastructure is up to scratch such a situation to prevail in the Federal Republic of through continued investment, yet the overriding objective German? I do not think so. from a private sector perspective is not to invest in maintenance and customer satisfaction, but to return Roberta Blackman-Woods: My hon. Friend makes an money to shareholders. excellent point. Is it not ludicrous that a publicly owned Privatisation in the rail sector is consistently lacking company in the UK cannot bid but publicly owned and detrimental to customers and the industry. Why companies in other European countries can? privatise a service that has been successful? In short, it is not broke, so why fix it? Ian Mearns: Given how Eurosceptic so many Let us recall the demise of Railtrack in 2002. The Government Members are, I think that it is utterly problems were numerous, but the straw that broke the bizarre that they would rather see profits from UK camel’s back was the requirement for essential safety railways going to France, Germany or Holland. repairs following the Paddington and Hatfield disasters. If Members have any doubts about the way this is all Railtrack—a privately owned company under the failed coming about, they need only look back a few years to model—was answerable to shareholders rather than the the Government’s rescue of the line from the failing public. It was, to put it bluntly, badly managed, effectively £1.4 billion National Express franchise. However, despite bankrupt and unwilling to try to fund urgent safety the private sector’s record of failure, the Government improvements as well as normal running costs. are determined to press ahead regardless of the interest Subsequently, as we know, the company was put into of the travelling public. They would pursue the foolish administration and Network Rail, a not-for-profit body, policy of privatisation, despite history repeatedly telling was invented to take over the rail network. us that the privatisation of railway lines and rail Given the inherent debt of Network Rail, is any infrastructure is detrimental to cost and service for the Government Member suggesting for one moment that customer and to the Government because of huge we re-privatise it? Of course not, because it would be financial bail-outs. completely and utterly stupid. Even if it were privatised—let The state-owned Directly Operated Railways, which us be honest—who really trusts this Government to runs the east coast main line, has generated and paid the introduce a fair and transparent, or even competent, Government £640 million in premiums and profits since tendering process in the current rail industry? Let us not 2009, and it is anticipated that by the end of this forget the west coast franchise, for instance, which has financial year that figure will be £800 million in total. cost the Government at least £50 million. What a complete Surely even the Chancellor or the Finance Ministers shambles—a shambles that has resulted in Virgin, which whom I faced on the Finance Bill Committee earlier lost to First Group in the tendering process, having to this afternoon would want to see those moneys returned have its contract extended until 2017. The whole model to the Chancellor’s coffers. Even this Government, given does not produce competition; it produces a series of the current financial state of the country, should want service monopolies on individual lines. That is not to keep the franchise in public hands and see those competition as anyone would understand it. profits repatriated to the Treasury. In among all this, the staff on the east coast main line The Government should pocket the profits for the have worked diligently and conscientiously through all public and use them to help cut the deficit and perhaps the management changes over the years, but they have even invest in infrastructure. One thing that we have to seen the equipment and rolling stock that they work on accept about the east coast main line—railway engineers slowly deteriorate around them. Those staff are a credit have told me this—is that, unfortunately, when it was to the service and deserve our congratulations. They first electrified I am afraid to say that it was done on the and the travelling public they serve on the east coast cheap; it was not a good model of electrification in the main line deserve so much better. first instance. This Government, however, do not want The east coast main line should remain where the vast to see that money reinvested. It is clear that, for them, majority of the travelling public want it—in the public private shareholder interest comes before the public sector, in public ownership—and some of the surpluses interest. This is yet another example of this Government’s that it generates should be reinvested into the service failed and ideologically driven economic policies. itself. No one denies that the east coast main line suffers its own problems of chronic under-investment, particularly 4.9 pm with regard to what is now very tired rolling stock. We have discussed rolling stock reinvestment, but the problem Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): I not is that we are being promised jam not tomorrow, but the only congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for day after tomorrow. The first new rolling stock on the Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) on securing the debate, east coast main line will be the diesel replacement, but but thank her for all the hard work that she has done in that will not actually occur until 2018, with the rest of spearheading the campaign to keep the east coast main the fleet following further down the line. Let us not line in public ownership. 1143 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1144

[Mrs Mary Glindon] the line and getting new stock would be met through public spending. He could not give a good reason why Like my hon. Friend the Member for Blyth Valley privatisation was being pushed through ahead of other (Mr Campbell), I note that the Chancellor of the Exchequer franchises, as highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member has said that he wants to balance the books and keep for York Central (Hugh Bayley). An article in The costs down for taxpayers. He therefore needs to have Northern Echo reported how Lord Adonis accused the words with the Secretary of State for Transport and his Department for Transport of attempting to “rig the Ministers, because they seem to be oblivious to that franchising timetable”, delaying costs for other lines, at fact. While in public ownership, the east coast main line a huge cost to taxpayers, in order to put East Coast has provided vast sums of money to the coffers. The first. He said: Office of Rail Regulation has reported that it offers the “East Coast is doing a great job and it should be allowed to get best value to taxpayers. on with it.” I can only reiterate the facts and figures that colleagues I will conclude by agreeing with Frances O’Grady, have given this afternoon. Directly Operated Railways the general secretary of the TUC and chair of Action Ltd has paid back £602 million to the Government in For Rail, who said: premium payments, which is £232 million more than “This decision defies all logic…The government…is not interested National Express paid back for the same service and in evidence-based policy and is once again putting the interests of £320 million more than Virgin-Stagecoach has paid private companies and shareholders before those of commuters back since 2009. The facts speak for themselves. Only and taxpayers…This is privatisation for privatisation’s sake, as 1.2% of East Coast’s income is derived from public Ministers steadfastly ignore what is best for the rail industry and subsidy, compared with an average of 32.1% for the the people who work on it and use it.” private train operating companies. Since 2009, East I can only agree. Coast has reinvested all of its £40 million profit into the service, whereas Virgin, in operating the west coast 4.16 pm main line since 1996, has paid nearly half a billion pounds in dividends to its shareholders. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Co-op): The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Like many of the MPs here, I use the east coast main Reid) made a robust defence of privatisation—it must line every week. I have used it for leisure purposes since be unusual for the Conservatives to hear a Liberal the late ’60s. There are some fantastic places to visit Democrat robustly defending Government policies for along the line, my favourites being York and Edinburgh, a change—but it is not unfair to point out that he where I have many happy memories. I have seen a represents a constituency in the west of Scotland. Although number of improvements in the three short years during I am sure some of his constituents use the east coast which I have travelled between Newcastle and King’s service from time to time, he will not have had my Cross as an MP. The trains are punctual for the most experience of regularly meeting constituents on the part and the staff are always friendly and helpful. Some train or at the station. If he had, he would know that his 80% of the delays that do occur are beyond the control defence for putting the east coast service back into of East Coast. It should be praised for being at fault for private hands would not find great favour among users so few delays. When trains are delayed, East Coast has a of that line, because the service provided since East fantastic compensation scheme that refunds the fare. Coast was brought in has been good. It has not always For MPs, that goes back to the taxpayer in lower been perfect, but customers and passengers are generally expenses. satisfied and, as has been said, when there are problems— It is possible to get to London from Newcastle in two particularly delays—they are mostly not down to factors hours and 40 minutes. That is fantastic for people who over which East Coast has, or is expected to have, any are travelling to work and must be lauded. The excellent control. rewards scheme, which the company initiated, means It is pretty outrageous of the Minister, who is generally that there is plenty of opportunity to get free journeys. a fair person, to use poor punctuality over some selected Again, when that is used by MPs, it means a direct periods to justify putting the east coast service back saving to the taxpayer through lower expenses. Could into private hands. Some of his colleagues suggested we expect the same from a private operator that had to that the private sector might be able to offer infrastructure keep its shareholders happy? improvements or offers for long-term planning, but for The hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough the last few years, East Coast has been operating the (Andrew Jones) is right that there has been a rise in the service, not on a day-to-day basis but certainly not on a number of passengers using the service. There has been long-term basis with any security. Surely we should now a 59% increase since 1944. However, analysis shows that give East Coast the chance to see what it could come up that is the direct result of a 300% increase in public with if it were given long-term security similar to a subsidy to the rail industry. It is also the case that franchise period. although there has been passenger growth, there has The Government should approach the issue in a been no corresponding increase in rail’s modal share non-ideological way. As has been said in this debate, compared to other forms of transport. East Coast provides a good return to the taxpayer, in The number of people using the trains has not, in contrast to previous operators, and surely success should effect, changed. be rewarded, not punished as the Government seem In a recent Westminster Hall initiated by my hon. intent on doing. I would like the service to be retained Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), and continue to be operated by Directly Operated Railways. the Minister did not give East Coast any acknowledgement That would be the simplest way forward. If the Government for reinvesting its profits, and he failed to recognise that are not prepared to do that, could they not allow if it went into private ownership, the cost of upgrading Directly Operated Railways to come forward with an 1145 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1146 alternative bid and a proposal that could be put against need to consider what is best for the customer and whatever comes in from private tenderers, to see who passenger, and that must surely be to allow the current offers best value for the Government and for passengers? East Coast service to continue, rather than yet again to Then we can judge who has the best offer on the table. force it into private hands in the way suggested. The Government should at least do that, if they are not driven purely by an ideological bent, as they appear to be. 4.23 pm I wonder whether the way the Government have Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): I timetabled the franchise process—presumably partly to am delighted to have the opportunity to participate in comply with the Brown review and obviously in order this debate. I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend to have the east coast main line back in private hands the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) on before the 2015 election—will result in a fair bidding securing this important debate and on all her campaigning process. I say that because with Virgin operating the work on this issue. west coast route until April 2017 and providing a service The east coast main line is vital for the connectivity that is popular with many passengers, and with another of my constituency. As regular passengers, many of my branch of the Virgin empire operating flights to Edinburgh constituents have an interest in the future management and Aberdeen, competition issues would surely arise if of the line. I too am a frequent user of the route, it was to bid for the east coast main line as well. It travelling between my constituency and Westminster, would not leave many alternative bidders, certainly and I have generally been pleased by the speed, punctuality from within the UK. The 2015 date has clearly been and comfort of the line and by the high standard of driven by the date of the general election, but I wonder service and professionalism of its staff since it took over whether the franchise process, instead of giving the from National Express in 2009. I am not alone in Government a successful policy to sell to the public, thinking this. The most recent survey by the independent might not in fact give them a huge headache just before consumer group Passenger Focus found that 92% of May 2015. If that is the case, it will serve them right. I passengers were satisfied with their experience with say give DOR on the east coast main line a chance at East Coast. To put that in perspective, that is the highest least to put forward an alternative bid to show what it level of customer satisfaction recorded on the line since can do, to show what its management team can do and the surveys began in 1999, and 3% higher than the to show what alternative offer can be put into the national average for long-distance operators. Improved process to see which would bring the best value for satisfaction tells only some of the story. East Coast has money. increased its employee engagement, meaning that most I want to raise a point that has not been raised so far, employees are in favour of continued public ownership but which is important to the future of the east coast of the line. That should not be dismissed. main line and the franchise. We will be having a separate My hon. Friends have gone through much of the debate next week on High Speed 2, which I support— detail on the benefits of East Coast, including the although I think it should be going all the way to £800 million being paid back to the Exchequer, and I do Scotland—but whichever option is adopted for the future not feel that I have time to reiterate all those points. of high-speed rail in the UK, under the present plans What is clear from the information we have, and which the services operating the high-speed system will reach is readily available to the Minister and his team, is that points near Manchester, York or Leeds, and will then be this is a well-run, profitable line that is popular with run on the existing rail network up to north-east England passengers. Why, then, are the Government insisting on and Scotland—along what are endearingly called in the selling off the franchise, while at the same time extending HS2 prospectus the “classic routes” to Edinburgh and the contracts for less successful operators? I hope the Glasgow. It is reasonable to ask, therefore, how many Minister will answer that specific question. more trains we can fit into the existing east coast main In the previous debate on this issue, the hon. Member line network north of York. for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) said that East Coast is For those reasons, we need to plan for the future simply treading water—an amazing claim to make services, network and infrastructure on the east coast considering that the franchise has consistently made main line on a long-term, secure basis. Let us not forget improvements year on year. The Minister stated that what has happened before with the franchising process East Coast had provided the foundations for a private on that line. Twice the operator has been forced to give company to come in with back the service to the Department, and most recently “certainty of ownership, longer planning horizons”—[Official DOR was forced to operate the service at the last minute Report, 5 June 2013; Vol. 563, c. 254WH.] to ensure that the public continued getting a good to improve the service. The success of East Coast without service, as indeed they have. that long planning horizon prompts the question: how If DOR cannot continue operating the east coast much more would it be able to do if it was given a service, the Government—whoever is in power in 2015— longer franchise? Perhaps he could confirm that the might find themselves in a difficult situation. At the majority of investment in new rolling stock will come moment, if a privately operated franchise collapses, from the public sector, and not the private sector. We DOR has the infrastructure, staffing and structure to should not link the private sector franchise for running move in quickly and take over the service. If we take the line with future investment in rolling stock—they away the DOR service on the east coast main line, we need to be kept separate. They keep getting muddled in will take away a valuable alternative operator and our debates. comparator for the rail network. That is another reason The Liberal Democrat-Tory Government have been why the Government should be rethinking this proposal quick to say that when Labour set up Directly Operated and approaching it on a non-ideological basis. They Railways in 2009, after the privately owned National 1147 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1148

[Roberta Blackman-Woods] measure and the narrower “right time” assessment. Punctuality is now better than under the previous, failed Express walked away from the franchise, it was there private operators and is at its best since records began. purely as a stop-gap. That was certainly true at the time. Since then, however, Labour has seen that the franchise Mr Stewart Jackson: I thank the shadow transport is working for both passengers and the Government. spokesman for giving way, but I did not actually say Has the Minister not considered that the franchise is that. I compared the performance with the performance working well and should be extended? A large part of of the best-performing train operating companies, rather the Minister’s argument in the previous debate seemed than making a strict comparison with the west coast to rest on the fact that previous Labour Transport main line. That is an important distinction. Secretaries said that they would do the same as him. Today, we have a statement from Lord Adonis and my Lilian Greenwood: I shall have to refer back to the right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) record, but it is my recollection that the hon. Gentleman saying that they are clearly in favour of the contract described East Coast as the worst operator for punctuality, staying in public ownership. Lord Adonis said: which is certainly not the case, so this privatisation “In the last four years East Coast has established itself as one cannot be about punctuality. of the best train operating companies in the country, both operationally We were also told that the east coast main line must and commercially. This has fundamentally changed the situation, and it is right and proper that East Coast should be allowed to be privatised in order to attract private sector investment. continue as a public sector comparator to the existing private The Minister told the Select Committee: franchises.” “I do not believe that keeping the East Coast Main Line in It seems illogical to change something that is performing public ownership is the most effective and swiftest way of getting so well, particularly when it provides a useful comparator that investment.” to measure the performance of private operators against. However, as he has confirmed in written answers to At the very least, the Government should delete section 25 hon. Members, the cost of rolling stock procurement of the Railways Act 1993 and allow East Coast to submit and track upgrades on the east coast main line will be a bid for the new franchise. It seems almost perverse that, met through public spending, just as the cost of the as we have heard from other colleagues today, state-owned £9 billion west coast upgrade was borne by the taxpayer. companies from France, Germany and the Netherlands If anything, the Government’s plans threaten investment. currently operate 10 of the 17 privately run UK rail At the moment, all the east coast profits are invested in franchises—thereby subsidising rail fares elsewhere in the service, instead of being split with shareholders. Europe—yet public companies from Britain are not That would end in 2015 if the Government have their way, even allowed to bid. Surely it is clear to everyone in the so this privatisation cannot be about investment either. country—apart from the Minister and his team, perhaps— We were also told that privatisation would deliver that the Government’s plans for rail are totally on the better value for money. On that point the Government’s wrong track. argument takes its final departure from reality. Since 2009, East Coast has returned £640 million to the 4.30 pm taxpayer and invested £40 million of its profits back in Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): I the service. As the Office of Rail Regulation recently congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh confirmed, East Coast receives virtually no subsidy and East (Sheila Gilmore) on securing this important and yet made the second highest premium payments of any timely debate, which builds on her strong campaigning operator in 2011-12. To put that into context, subsidy work on behalf of passengers, and the many hon. accounted for just 1% of East Coast’s income, compared Members who have supported the compelling case that with an industry average of 32%. she set out. East Coast is also performing a vital role as a public Since the Government announced the reprivatisation sector comparator, especially as the Government seek of East Coast services in March, the decision has been to negotiate extensions with operators. This is an important fiercely criticised in Parliament and the country at large. point, and I shall return to it shortly. East Coast delivers Ministers have been pressed on numerous occasions in good value for money, benefiting taxpayers and fare this House and through dozens of written questions, payers. Let us compare today’s situation with the instability yet they have not produced a single credible reason for and cost that resulted from the collapse of Sea Containers rushing through this costly and unnecessary privatisation—a and the decision of National Express to walk away point that my hon. Friend the Member for York Central from the franchise. Against that backdrop, and taking (Hugh Bayley) made very eloquently, as did many others. into account ageing rolling stock and a route that was Instead, one by one, the props supporting the Government’s last upgraded in the 1980s, Directly Operated Railways argument have been kicked away. has done very well to record such a strong financial We were told that the east coast main line had to be performance. privatised because punctuality had plateaud; and perhaps East Coast’s improvements to financial and operational it really had disappointed in four weeks out of 52. That performance have also been reflected in better services was the narrow window that the Minister quoted when for passengers. Since 2009, the operator has introduced he appeared before the Select Committee on Transport. a new timetable providing 19 more services per day and, Indeed, he even described East Coast as the worst far from lacking innovation, it has taken initiatives on operator for punctuality. However, contrary to what the customer services. For example, many train operating hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) claimed, companies are encouraging passengers to print advance- the annual figures show that over the last year the east purchase single tickets at home, but East Coast is the coast main line has outperformed the west coast on only operator that allows them to amend a print-at-home punctuality, according to both the public performance ticket up to the evening before departure. 1149 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1150

The proposed privatisation is not about passengers. It Lilian Greenwood: I cannot speak about that as I was is not about operational performance and it is not not here, but the fact is that we now conducting a about value for money. It is about politics, and the thorough review of the how the railways are structured. determination of the Government to end a successful, East Coast should be kept as a not-for-dividend operator, not-for-dividend alternative to franchising. The taxpayer and we are committed to doing that. will end up footing the bill for this politically motivated decision. There will be the immediate cost of running Mr Reid: Will the hon. Lady give way? the franchise competition. Will the Minister tell the House what the overall cost will be to the taxpayer of Lilian Greenwood: No, as I want to make some progress. refranchising the east coast route? Decisions on rolling stock have been postponed and That covers only the direct cost, however. As we seek a lack of orders is hitting the supply chain, threatening to reduce inefficiencies on the railways, East Coast jobs and skills. The National Audit Office has raised provides a useful public sector comparator—a benchmark serious concerns over the Department for Transport’s against which we can measure the costs of franchised ability to deliver major projects, including HS2, and the operators. That was certainly the position of the present Thameslink rolling stock contract is only now being local transport Minister, the Under-Secretary of State signed after an unacceptable three-year delay. for Transport, the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker). Perhaps he did not enjoy the support of the With that background, it is no surprise that the rail hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) when, in industry has been shaken with a loss of confidence in 2009, he told the House: the franchising process, hurting not just those on the “My view on the franchise agreements is clear…if a franchise front line, but the wider industry as well. Instead of is handed in to the Government—handed back—it should be concentrating on the problems caused by the collapse of held in the public sector as a public interest franchise, not least as the west coast and Great Western tenders, the Government a comparator for other franchise agreements currently operating.”— are selling off the one part of the network that is [Official Report, 3 June 2009; Vol. 495, c. 83WH.] benefiting from an extended period of stability. The That was his view in opposition. I wonder whether it is east coast line could benefit further if the Government still his view in power. only had the courage to support it. Management have prepared a five-year plan for improving services, but Mr Jackson: Will the hon. Lady give way? Ministers have damned East Coast with faint praise, conceding that it is doing a good job, yet pushing through their politically motivated timetable for Lilian Greenwood: I will not give way at the moment. privatisation. I do not want to run out of time. As Lord Adonis and my right hon. Friend the Member Directly Operated Railways has another function. It for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) said this week, it makes no allows the Government a fall-back operator, should sense to reprivatise an East Coast service that is working. they fail in their current negotiations for franchise Let me quote the noble Lord: extensions. Indeed, earlier this month, the Minister of State, Department for Transport, the right hon. Member “East Coast is doing a great job and it should be allowed to get for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) told the House: on with it…It has an impressive performance record, it has a loyal customer following and it is making big payments back to the “The operation of train services by DOR is an essential part of government from its profit—to keep fares down for the travelling the privatised franchising model.”—[Official Report, 5 June 2013; public—without needing to pay dividends to private shareholders Vol. 563, c. 225WH.] …The government’s decision to rig the franchising timetable to However, the Government are proposing to remove all get this unnecessary privatisation under way is requiring them to operational responsibilities from DOR, leaving the body agree costly extensions to other contracts, wasting tax-payers’ hamstrung. He cannot expect to retain the experienced money.” and capable management team at DOR once the East He is right, and I hope that the Government listen to Coast route is privatised. As the Department goes into that argument. negotiations for franchise extensions and direct awards, We now have an opportunity to learn lessons and the train operating companies will know that Ministers improve the rail industry for the better. Ministers should are loth, for political reasons, to transfer operations to proceed on the basis of the best evidence available and Directly Operated Railways. That must be dispiriting promote what works instead of relying on political for those civil servants who are sent to negotiate the dogma. So it is disappointing to see them repeating the best possible deal for the taxpayer. As my hon. Friend mistakes of the 1990s, when the ill-thought-through the Member for Edinburgh East has noted, Ministers privatisation of the rail industry left us with problems have taken their strongest bargaining chip and thrown it with which the network is still grappling today. Now we away. This mindset and this lack of imagination are have this unneeded, unwanted, and unjustified privatisation compounding the costs incurred by the shambolic collapse of the east coast main line—a service that has quietly of rail franchising on this Government’s watch. That and successfully improved the quality of journeys; a collapse has cost the taxpayer at least £55 million, and not-for-dividend operator that has delivered good value the price is rising. for money and reinvested profits in the service, unlike the private operator that walked away. There is no financial Mr Jackson: I have to ask the hon. Lady a or operational case for privatisation. It is a transparently straightforward question: in 13 years, why did not the political act from a Government who are prepared to Labour Government repeal section 25 of the Railways risk undoing the progress of the recent past. Passengers Act 1993 in order to facilitate the franchising regime deserve better. I hope that Ministers will listen to the that she and her hon. Friends think is the right way arguments made in the House today and halt this costly forward? and unnecessary privatisation. 1151 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1152

4.43 pm The debate is so important, and of so much interest to so many people, because the east coast franchise The Minister of State, Department for Transport serves so many communities and businesses, and helps (Mr Simon Burns): I, too, begin by congratulating the to drive the economy along the length of the country, hon. Members for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) from London in the south to Aberdeen and Inverness in and for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) Scotland. I am grateful for my second opportunity in on securing the debate. It is clearly a topic that arouses less than three weeks to discuss the franchise. We needed considerable interest, as has been seen in hon. Members’ to revisit the issue today because Members felt that, speeches. I suspect that the policies advocated by the given the high level of interest, the last debate—which Greek chorus on one part of the Opposition Benches was restricted to one and a half hours—was not long vary somewhat from the policies of the hon. Member enough. for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) on another part of the those Benches. It is clear that the inter-city coast franchise is a valuable one. That, in my view, is a major part of why it I particularly enjoyed the thoughtful speeches of my should be returned to the private sector as soon as hon. Friends the Members for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) possible, as was originally envisaged by Lord Adonis and for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones), when he brought it into temporary public ownership as and there was an interesting speech from the hon. Member Secretary of State in 2009. He said—I am repeating this for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), but I gently remind him for a reason— that it is this Conservative and Liberal Democrat coalition Government—and not simply the Liberal Democrats—who “I do not believe that it would be in the public interest for us to have a nationalised train operating company indefinitely.”—[Official are making such record investments in our rail Report, House of Lords, 1 July 2009; Vol. 712, c. 232.] infrastructure. The work that has been done on the east coast As usual, I listened with considerable care and interest franchise in the last three and a half years of public to the extremely thoughtful speech of the hon. Member ownership, to which many Members have rightly referred, for York Central (Hugh Bayley), who raised a number will allow an operator from the private sector to apply of issues. First, he asked whether the headquarters its own skills and innovative thinking to building long-term would be in York. I understand why he did so: the issue value for both the taxpayer and passengers on the route. is important to him, because York is his constituency. I was informed during the Westminster Hall debate two Obviously we would not expect to specify the location weeks ago that Lord Adonis had changed his views on of the headquarters in any future franchise proposals, the ownership of the franchise, but I have not, and the but there is nothing to prevent the new franchise company Government have not. We remain committed to obtaining, from choosing to locate its headquarters in York, especially for east coast passengers and for the taxpayer, the great given the current precedent. benefits of franchising that we have seen since privatisation. The hon. Gentleman sought to tempt me down another I think it is very interesting that the noble Lord and route, asking for an independent commission to be set the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), along up to establish whether passengers wanted services to with the shadow Secretary of State, put out a press be taken away from Directly Operated Railways. I am release this morning in advance of the debate. I would afraid that I must disappoint him. I will not be tempted love to know the date of the telephone conversation the on to the wayside. We have no plans to set up any such hon. Member for Nottingham South had with Lord commission, although perhaps I can give him some Adonis when he told her he had changed his mind. I consolation. We are working with the independent body would be very grateful if she would intervene and tell Passenger Focus to ensure that we understand what me. [Interruption.] She says that she had a telephone passengers, on the basis of their own experiences, want conversation—[Interruption.] She said she never had from their rail service, and that will influence any proposals one? that emerge from the franchise process. The hon. Members for Middlesbrough (Andy Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. McDonald), for Easington (Grahame M. Morris), for We must have a debate across the Dispatch Box so it can Livingston (Graeme Morrice), for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) be recorded. We do not want prompting and responses and for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell) all made their from any Member who does not have the Floor.Minister, customary contributions. I am afraid that, while their you have the Floor. delivery may have gained in rapidity, theirs is a message that I have heard many times before. I am sorry that Mr Burns: I was wondering whether the hon. Lady they are not on message in relation to their hon. Friend was going to intervene. the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood). I think it would be fair to say—they will Lilian Greenwood: I intervene merely to confirm that be proud of this—that they would like an outright I have not had any telephone conversation with the renationalisation of the whole railway system. noble Lord since we last spoke over the Dispatch Box.

Mr Ronnie Campbell: I never said that. Madam Deputy Speaker: I call Simon Hughes. I am sorry; I mean Simon Burns. Mr Burns: No, but I think that that conclusion could be drawn from what the hon. Gentleman has said. Mr Burns: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. [Interruption.] He is being a little too coy now. We do That is a real compliment. know his history; he does have form. I do not think that even the hon. Member for Nottingham South is advocating Madam Deputy Speaker: I was getting ahead of myself; an outright renationalisation. I apologise, Minister. 1153 East Coast Main Line Franchise20 JUNE 2013 East Coast Main Line Franchise 1154

Mr Burns: I accept the apology. franchise services within the rail network. It is there as a I have to say to the hon. Member for Nottingham company of last resort in an emergency to ensure South that that was an interesting and carefully worded continuity of service under the Railways Acts. This response. I was not asking when she had a conversation should never be considered a long-term solution, and it since the last debate; I asked when she had the conversation is not an alternative model to franchising. Many Members in which Lord Adonis told her he had changed his totally misunderstood or did not get that point. This is mind. I am not going to get an answer, however, so we fundamental: DOR is not an alternative model to will make some progress. franchising. We firmly believe that the private sector is best placed to deliver the best value for the passenger Mr Stewart Jackson: Will the Minister give way? and taxpayer, and DOR allows us to make that choice.

Mr Burns: No, I want to make some progress. Lilian Greenwood: Will the Minister give way? By returning the east coast franchise to a private Mr Burns: No; I am running out of time. The nature sector operator, we will provide certainty of ownership of Directly Operated Railways, as an interim measure and much longer-term planning horizons that are not and operator of last resort, means it would not be right available to public sector operators. That is vital at a or practicable for it to plan beyond the short term. In time when this Government are making significant order to provide the stability and innovation that is investment in the franchise, both in the infrastructure needed for any business, in particular a rail franchise through our rail investment strategy and in new rolling that serves the public, it is necessary to be able to plan stock as part of the inter-city express programme. A well into the future and make investment decisions that strong private sector partner will be able to build on have a horizon beyond the short term. To meet this that investment and work with local stakeholders, the need, the inter-city east coast franchise must be transferred Department and the railway industry to ensure that the back to the private sector. best possible deal is delivered for passengers and taxpayers. A number of Members have suggested that East I heard the concerns raised by a number of hon. Coast should be maintained in public ownership for an Members about services along the line and what they extended period to provide a comparator or baseline for would like to see for their constituents and the service in future private sector operators on the franchise, or general in any future provision. against operators on other parts of the network. This approach does not work. All franchises are different, Lilian Greenwood: The Minister recently said the east and with changes to charges and funding occurring coast needs a long-term private sector partner that is every five years, they even differ from themselves over able to cope with the totality of this change programme. time. Any attempt directly to compare one franchise Will he explain to the House in plain English what with another, or even one incumbent with another on precisely he meant by that? the same franchise, ends up simply comparing apples with pears. East Coast, a large inter-city franchise, is Mr Burns: Absolutely, and doing so will also help obviously different from Essex Thameside, a franchise answer the points made by the hon. Member for Livingston. providing commuter services on a much smaller route. The Government are investing significantly in the east Clearly, it would be folly to try to make valid comparisons coast main line because its infrastructure needs to be between them. However, even with the apparently similar improved and enhanced, but Governments are not awash inter-city west coast franchise, differences in fleet size, with unlimited amounts of money. We are more ambitious cost base, network grant, investment plans, disruption for the east coast main line, and we believe from the and other factors make drawing a valid comparison experience of other franchisees that they are prepared with East Coast almost impossible. to invest their money as well, to build on the investment There is a comparator already in existence. In the that the Government provide, through Network Rail past 17 years since privatisation, the number of passengers and other sources, to ensure that there is more investment using the railways has doubled from 750 million to 1.5 in improving services for passengers, which is the key billion. The number of journeys has doubled, and the aim. That is why this Government are making record amount of freight moving off our congested roads and amounts of investment in infrastructure, amounting to on to the railways has increased by 60%. The comparator billions and billions of pounds; such is our commitment is the British Rail model that satisfied no one, failed to to improving passenger services. respond to its customers and was totally unsuccessful. Mr Ronnie Campbell: Will the Minister give way? 4.57 pm Mr Burns: No, because I am running out of time. Sheila Gilmore: I thank all Members who have Part of the success of franchising comes from having contributed to this debate, especially the Government both a private sector that is willing and able to invest and Back Benchers, who made it a proper debate. We may manage risks and a Government who have the ability to not agree, but this is an important issue and we all need step in, in the short term, to ensure the continued to be challenged and to have that discussion. However, I service of the railways in the event of a franchise failure. am disappointed that they seem determined to paint While we do everything we can to avoid such failure, we this debate as a strictly binary dispute—everything should be must be in a position to step in so that there is a private, or everything should be public—hence the insistence continuation of service if a franchisee were to get into on trying to push Labour Members to “come out”, as it trouble, as happened with National Express on the east were, as renationalisers. I am sure that some of my coast main line in 2009. That is the whole purpose of colleagues are unabashed re-nationalisers. Our dinosaur DOR. It is not a company like other companies providing Member, my hon. Friend the Member for Easington 1155 East Coast Main Line Franchise 20 JUNE 2013 1156

[Sheila Gilmore] Foreign-owned UK Property Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House (Grahame M. Morris), demonstrated that he might be do now adjourn.—(Mr Swayne.) in good company, in that 70% of the British public might also be dinosaurs on this issue. We do not need to approach this subject in a highly 5pm ideological way. There is a powerful pragmatic argument, Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) whatever we think of the wider issues, in favour of (LD): Through you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank retaining East Coast in public hands. That case was Mr Speaker for granting me this Adjournment debate. I made powerfully by many Members. I do not want to welcome the Minister for Housing to his place and am ignore the contributions of others, but I would single grateful for the opportunity at the end of today’s business out the powerful contribution from my hon. Friend the to consider the purchase of housing in the United Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley), who asked Kingdom by people or companies based abroad. some important practical questions and pointed out that to rush this process—even in the face of what the When I was first elected—a long time ago now—the investigation into the west coast fiasco told the London Docklands development corporation was in Government—is to put ideology above common sense. charge of some of the dockland areas, including parts Unfortunately, the Minister was so determined to talk of my constituency. One of the most successful things it about our policies then and now that he still has not ever did was to have a scheme of building new homes answered a number of the crucial questions. He has not and offering them for sale to people locally at discounted said why the east coast route should be prioritised over prices—or, at least, prices that did not make so much other long-distance routes. He did not say why the profit. There were huge queues of people and the homes evidence presented in previous debates was not— were snapped up. There was a restriction on onward sales, whereby people had to live in the houses for a 5pm certain amount of time, and they met a lot of the unmet housing need of people who wanted to stay in Bermondsey, Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). Rotherhithe or Surrey Docks but who could not afford to live there. Sadly, the situation is now completely different. I want to talk about the problem first before suggesting some solutions, based on comments made to me once people knew the debate was happening and on documents that have been in the public domain or press in the past few days. Let me start with two e-mails that I received before the debate. The first e-mail is from somebody in Battersea: “Good to see someone at least talking about the housing crisis in London. As an architect, part of my job is designing apartments in central London that I know are being sold off plan to buyers in China. Sometimes whole developments are sold in a day, with Chinese buyers paying in cash. That is before they are ever offered to the UK market, but should they ever be offered they would only be affordable to barristers and traders, not middle income workers like myself. It infuriates me, as I am still in a share house after 7 years of being in London.”

Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): The right hon. Gentleman mentions units being sold off plan before being offered to the UK market, but does he agree that by doing that some new home developers are discriminating against UK citizens?

Simon Hughes: That certainly appears to be the case. Let me give a constituency example. At the Elephant and Castle, just over the bridge, as people know, there is a controversial development of a former council estate, the Heygate estate, that is being done by Lend Lease, an Australian company. The first phase was either first put on the market in Malaysia or put on the market in Malaysia at the same time as it was advertised here. My constituents, who are desperate for the housing that was meant to replace the council estate, were more than angry to think that not only were they not getting the affordable housing they were promised at the promised 1157 Foreign-owned UK Property20 JUNE 2013 Foreign-owned UK Property 1158 levels but the property that was made available for That is the backdrop to this. I want to say a word private sale first was being block-bought off plan in about the politics and then where we ought to go. I am Malaysia. This morning I went to look at an estate very clear that the UK has prided itself always on its development in my constituency that has, I understand, international connections. London is a great global city, been marketed principally in Thailand. and my wonderful constituency has been a destination and place of passage for people from all over the world To show the other side of the coin, let me cite a for centuries. Nobody I know in public life, in my party second e-mail that I received unprompted in the past or in my constituency, does not appreciate the contribution couple of days, entitled “Housing developers targeting that foreign investment has made into our country in foreign buyers”. It states: the past and will continue to make in the future. We “I am British and live in Singapore. Even though I have a work have also historically prided ourselves on being a country permit, the Government put an extra high stamp duty on property, based on the free market, from which UK citizens and and also restrict me from renting out a property I buy for the first residents can acquire interests abroad, and where non-UK three years of ownership. citizens and residents, and companies registered outside I gather that the first phase of the Battersea development was the UK can acquire interest in property in this country. out-sold in Singapore with over 800 units going to Singaporeans. Most people know that many, if not most, of our leading The main reason is the devaluation of Sterling combined with the companies now have foreign owners. I often raise the rising costs of housing in Singapore. Why buy a two bed in issue of Thames Water and its failure to pay adequate Singapore for £1 million sterling when you can buy two in London for £800,000?” taxes, but it is, in effect, an Australian company and many of our other utilities are also run by foreign owners. So in this country properties are increasingly being sold The reality is that my country, my city and my abroad and in other countries Governments are realising constituency are desperately short of homes. In particular, that they need to have some restrictions on the inward we are desperately short of homes to rent, for shared investment into their housing in order to look after ownership and to buy at prices that are affordable to the their own people and ensure that they, or residents in average income earner or average family. these countries, who may not have been born there but have settled there, have opportunity in the market. Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I congratulate The Mayor of London this week produced a document the right hon. Gentleman on making pertinent and “The greatest city on Earth: ambitions for London”. I timely points that my constituents will recognise. Are share that view of London, as I think it is the greatest not these properties being marketed abroad because of city on earth, and also the ambitions for it. I am hugely the type of property being built? High-value, high-rise proud to be a London Member of Parliament and to properties are the ones being built and the fault lies with represent my constituency. In the same month as that the planning authorities, the Mayor and some borough was produced, the Bureau of Investigative Journalism councils, such as my local one, which are giving permission published an article headed “The housing crisis: Westminster for tens of thousands of the type of unit that appeals to hit by soaring costs as it struggles with homeless crisis”. Malaysian investors but is completely unaffordable to Today’s Evening Standard headline is “Rough sleepers his constituents and mine? double in 5 years: Mayor under fire after pledge to eliminate problem”. It gives the explanation as follows: Simon Hughes: The hon. Gentleman makes a good “Experts said the increasing numbers were a consequence of point. We do not always agree, but he makes a good housing benefit cuts, soaring rents and the closure of a dozen point. Many of the properties that are being built are hostels and day centres”. specifically built with the probability that they will be Soaring rents are absolutely one of the reasons why sold easily in the foreign market. These are not family people cannot find homes that they need. houses; these properties are mainly flats, often studio, one-bedroom or two-bedroom flats—small flats—which As hon. Members would imagine, a lot of work has will either be buy to rent, will be used occasionally by been done in this area. I am grateful to Savills Residential, somebody from abroad who might come here a couple with which I have met. It produces regular reports and of times a year on business or will be just kept as an is about to do another one on who invests in this investment. There is evidence that a lot of these places country, where and how. A very good report was produced have nobody in them at all; they are simply bought as by the Smith Institute in July 2012 entitled “London for an investment in this country and will be sold later at a sale? An assessment of the private housing market in higher price. I agree with the hon. Gentleman. London and the impact of growing overseas investment”. I checked the Office for National Statistics figures Deloitte produces an annual prediction and has just today. The average house price in the UK this year is done so. Knight Frank has accurate, up-to-date figures, £238,000, in London £414,000 and in my borough which I have looked at and drawn on. £389,000. Median employee earnings monthly in the I have also looked at other articles, with titles such as UK are £505, in London £613 and in my borough £630. “More restrictions on foreign property buyers in It will not surprise anybody in the Chamber to know Switzerland”, “Property purchases: who can purchase that the gap between earnings and cost is growing and property in Denmark?”. The Danes have clearly thought growing, and London is the place where the difference that they need to address this problem. I have looked at is greatest. other general assessments—for example, an article in In London, just to keep pace with demand, best April entitled “Buyers not wanted: restrictions on estimates suggest that we need at least 50,000 more international property investors”. It stated: homes each year, twice as many as are currently being “While the world’s investors are busy snapping up property in built, and 20,000 a year more than the Mayor of London’s London, other countries are putting up barriers to foreign ownership”. target. Central London, which for housing purposes 1159 Foreign-owned UK Property20 JUNE 2013 Foreign-owned UK Property 1160

[Simon Hughes] working for the purposes that are the priority. Meeting housing need is now the priority, not meeting global often includes part of my borough and my constituency, housing demand. is now an area where, according to the best figures, We cannot go on as we are. We do not have enough more than one third of all buyers are from overseas, and land to build on at a reasonable price, there is much too two thirds of all new-build property is sold to non-UK little building of affordable housing, and now there is purchasers—a third of the total and two thirds of the increasing purchase by foreign owners of the property new-build property. Over a third of properties are sold that does become available. We need more supply and to companies from China and the Asia-Pacific region, we need to moderate the demand that is forcing up more than one in 10 to buyers in the middle east prices even more. The purpose of this debate is to put and north Africa, and about 8% each to purchasers down a marker that there needs to be a response at from western Europe, and to eastern Europe and the central Government level, at London government level former Soviet states. and at local government level as well. I am not the only I understand why London is a popular place for person who thinks that. Colleagues across the House investment—the value of the pound, the fact that it is and in different sorts of constituencies share my view. outside the eurozone, very low interest rates, and the Even if I cannot get all my wishes announced in the fact that it is a world-class city with English as its main spending review next week, I hope that at the latest by language. According to Knight Frank, average prices in the time of the Budget next year I can persuade colleagues prime property—property priced at more than £1 million to make the sort of changes we need. I hope also that I —in London have risen by 50% from 2009 and more can get the two Select Committees—Treasury and than 7.5% in the past 12 months alone. Compared to Communities and Local Government—and the National New York or Singapore, it is clearly a much more Audit Office to look into the subject, because I know successful investment. Some purchasers buy these homes they have an interest and think they would do a good to live in, some to let, some as a home additional to job. their principal home or as a third home, and some buy We want a change of policy, a change of strategy. We simply as an investment. want a big change in the number of affordable homes These purchasers are on to a good thing for them, available for residents of these islands, and we want it and the developers who sell to them are on to a very now. I will give the Minister my shopping list now, so good thing for themselves as well. Developers find that he has time to respond. foreign purchasers—this relates to the question from I hope that work outside this place and by the Select the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter)—often Committees and the NAO will be helpful on this, because more willing than UK purchasers to buy straight from I would like the Government to compile a report on plan. They pay their money up front, which helps fund legislation passed elsewhere to tackle this problem. As I the development as a whole. London property commands said, Singapore and Denmark have taken action in good prices in the global market, so this maximises the recent years, and I understand that Australia, Canada, returns and therefore the profits of the developers. It is Thailand and some states of the USA have done so, too. a very successful response to international housing demand. Those are not socialist republics; they are countries It does not help the people I see in my surgery every with free-market economies that understand they have week who want a first home or a home they can afford. to do something to look after the people within their shores, to whom they have an obligation. Mark Pritchard: I am grateful to the right hon. I should be grateful if the Government, over the next Gentleman for giving way—he is being very generous. few weeks, commissioned up-to-date research, using the Does he agree that there would be a little more all the sources available, into the extent to which residential understanding of new home developments such as those property acquired by individuals who are not domiciled being built by Barratt if the units, when they became or resident here or companies that are not registered available, were offered to everybody, wherever they live, here is: acquired for investment only and kept empty; at the same time, rather than some that are left over occasionally used; occupied primarily by staff; a home being offered to local British buyers? other than the principal home; or rented out. If the information could be broken down by local authority and postcode, that would be helpful. This is not just a Simon Hughes: This is a real issue. I shall put some London issue; it affects the west midlands and many of suggestions to the Minister, of which I gave him notice the big cities in England and other parts of the UK. earlier today, so I hope I am not taking him completely There may be policy and tax changes we could make. by surprise. We cannot discriminate between UK and other EU People who have lived here for five years, 10 years, citizens on the basis of their citizenship—I understand 15 years or all their life now cannot find a place they that entirely. However, it seems to me that we could have can afford. More offensive, even if they see them, they differential stamp duty or council tax, or another form suddenly discover that the properties have been offered of acquisition or disposal tax, or an annual asset tax, on for sale abroad and are not available, or by the time properties held by non-EU citizens or companies based people in this country can get their finances together, outside the EU. Secondly, we could have differential somebody has bought the lot. That is an unacceptable council tax or other tax by category of use, so a second practice. Free market economics is a good starting or third home or a company-let flat, for example, would point for the global economy, but responsible Governments, be in different categories. I am less certain that this including I hope those with my colleagues in Government, would be the answer to many of the problems, but we should always be willing to intervene in the market could have differentiation of tax or council tax by price, where there is good reason and where the market is not with the aim of adding an extra tax on the middle-ranking 1161 Foreign-owned UK Property20 JUNE 2013 Foreign-owned UK Property 1162 properties, which are the ones that our constituents London. That is why the coalition Government are want to buy. That might have adverse knock-on effects, determined to take a different approach. Our housing so I am not categorically proposing that, but I think the strategy seeks to be comprehensive and to address both idea should be considered. supply and demand and both freehold and leasehold, I believe it would be possible to have priority bidding and it seeks to start to reverse the loss of 421,000 for rent, shared ownership or purchase for people who affordable homes that, sadly, we saw under the previous have lived in the area for a certain period. We could not Administration. It is why we are reforming the planning do that by nationality, probably, but we could do it by system to speed up the development process, why we are length of residence. Councils are now allowed to give unlocking large sites to create lasting settlements, and priority on their waiting lists to people who have lived why we are building over 170,000 more affordable homes. in the area for a certain period, so surely we could do It is also why we are seeking to create a bigger and the same in the sale, shared ownership and rental sectors. better private rented sector that gives tenants greater We could require residential properties to be advertised choice and quality. in this country at the same time as or before they are At the same time, we are supporting demand for new advertised anywhere else. We could do what the London homes through the Help to Buy equity loan scheme. Docklands development corporation did, which is ensure Boosting demand matters, especially after the record that properties are initially offered locally. There would lows of recent years. I believe that not just because I am be legal questions to deal with, but we could consider it. a passionate supporter of home ownership, but because Finally, we could give tax incentives to people or companies a rise in demand gives builders the confidence to accelerate willing to invest in affordable housing for rent, shared building and can boost overall market supply, including ownership or sale at below-average prices, rather than of affordable homes. That is an important point about give them only to those who want to build expensive how the flow of cash and investment helps the market properties. We could incentivise the right sort of investment. as a whole, a point I will return to in the moment. We could pilot these proposals, or give powers to the On the specific question of foreign investment in Mayor or local authorities in London and elsewhere to housing, it is natural to look principally at London. We try differential planning and council tax arrangements, have to recognise that London, as the right hon. Gentleman to see the effects on the market. As the Mayor of correctly said, is a truly global city; perhaps it is the London has suggested, we could ask the Government global city. It has not only the fastest growing economy to make sure that any taxation—for example, stamp and population in the UK, but immense international duty—generated in a particular local authority from a appeal. I think that Members on both sides of the certain type of property goes into the housing fund for House recognise that as a highly desirable position to that local authority. be in. I am open to any solution that works. I hope that the Minister and his Department are open to helping us to London’s success is in part the result of our open and tackle this major and growing concern to voters of all free markets. Being a global city brings many economic parties and none, and all our constituents. I do not benefits, with wealth creation and inward investment in think we can say that nothing can be done. jobs. Only a week or so ago the Mayor announced the securing of £1 billion of Chinese investment in the area that used to be covered by the old London Docklands 5.19 pm development corporation but is now an enterprise zone, The Minister for Housing (Mr Mark Prisk): I congratulate which is a very welcome long-term investment. The the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark preparedness of others to invest here is a vote of confidence (Simon Hughes) on securing a debate on this important both in this country’s current economic strategy—that matter and on offering, as usual, a range of ideas. I of the coalition—and in London’s future. I think that received his shopping list—thankfully it was not confused that openness is also vital to the character of London. with Mrs Prisk’s shopping list, which might have been It is a diverse city with a fantastic range of influences awkward—and take it in exactly that vein, as a set of and cultures, and that is something to be welcomed. positive suggestions. It recognises some of the challenges, As a result of that, the housing market in London is some of which I will seek to answer. I also undertake to quite different from the housing market across the rest reflect in detail on his list’s itemised elements, rather of the country. Across the rest of the UK, domestic than seeking to do so in the remaining 11 minutes. demand has suffered, with mortgage constraints and The right hon. Gentleman has a strong record of the difficulties builders have had in securing development speaking eloquently and frequently about housing stress finance, but in London the availability of foreign investment in London. I will preface my remarks by looking at the has kept development going. It has generated the cash housing market as a whole and then focus on the flow that developers need to progress schemes. question as it relates to London, because I think that is The right hon. Gentleman mentioned research. A where the heart of the problem lies. For too long now, recent report by the Greater London authority looked regardless of which party has been in government, our at barriers to housing delivery. It estimated that in housing markets have been dysfunctional. From my prime London markets—the very highest—up to 75% political background, and my professional background of buyers are from overseas, and across London as a as a surveyor, I think that this country has probably whole approximately a third of buyers are foreign. The built only half the homes we need year on year for report goes on to note that perhaps a generation. “construction activity demands investor sales—many, if not most, As the right hon. Gentleman rightly said, that has major London residential schemes only commence due to the caused a long-term housing shortage and, with it, significant expectation of the sale risk being mitigated by the chance to sell social problems, and that is especially true in Greater to UK-based and overseas investors.” 1163 Foreign-owned UK Property20 JUNE 2013 Foreign-owned UK Property 1164

[Mr Mark Prisk] this issue to the Mayor’s attention to see what granularity is available beyond the conventions of the English housing We should also pay attention to what developers say. survey and so on. Tony Pidgley of Berkeley Homes recently said that to try to curtail foreign investment sharply is unrealistic, Mr Slaughter: Will the Minister give way? because it is only through such funding that Berkeley and others can build more homes and affordable homes. Mr Prisk: I am running out of time and want to Before turning to the specific matters raised by the right answer some of the questions asked by the right hon. hon. Gentleman, I will quote Tony Pidgley, who says: Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark, if I may. “Basically most sites that Berkeley are building are a third The right hon. Gentleman raised the broader question affordable, a third goes abroad, and a third to the UK market”. of whether tax laws might differentiate in some ways. He goes on to say that without foreign investors, Property taxes such as stamp duty and land tax do not “London would be worse off and we would have fewer affordable distinguish between UK and foreign nationals. That is homes and fewer private homes.” partly because of EU laws, to which the right hon. I say to the right hon. Gentleman that I totally Gentleman has alluded, but it is also partly because of understand the sense of frustration and challenge that significant administrative difficulties. Although he will local authorities and, indeed, local people may feel understand that tax policy, as I am constantly reminded, about this issue, but if we seek to curtail inward investment is for the Treasury, I will nevertheless make sure that in a crude or ill-defined way I think we can both agree Treasury Ministers are aware of his suggestions and that it would lead to a significant set of unintended concerns. consequences. The right hon. Gentleman also mentioned council tax differential rates, which we have discussed before. In Simon Hughes: I will be brief, because I know the April, having to listened to his concerns and those of Minister has other things to say. A report that is about others, we gave new powers to local authorities to to be published will show that, sadly, the figure given by establish an empty homes premium for long-term empty Tony Pidgley of a third is much lower in reality, both in properties. Clearly, it is up to local councils how they do London and across the UK. Although that may be the it, but I think that this is a power that is able to address theoretical quota, in my borough the figure is much many of the problems, perhaps in a simpler and more lower and I fear that nothing like that is being delivered, localised way than we thought. It is something that we because, to be blunt, companies get more money out of will happily encourage, but as a localist Government we having fewer affordable homes. will not seek to impose it. The right hon. Gentleman also mentioned foreign Mr Prisk: Clearly local areas will differ, as will some comparators. We certainly look at them, but we have to builders, but what Mr Pidgley has said is reflected in be careful to look not just at fiscal or planning arrangements some of the other builders’ remarks. We should not but at the picture as a whole. Having looked at Hong ignore them, but I take the right hon. Gentleman’s Kong, I know that although it has made certain fiscal point. changes its difficulty is that prices are still rising. I will respond to the right hon. Gentleman’s specific Mr Slaughter: Will the Minister give way? shopping list, but let me conclude by saying that I think there are perfectly understandable concerns about the Mr Prisk: I am going to try to answer the points potential impact of people from overseas buying homes raised by the Member who secured the debate, if I may. in London. We should not, however, pretend that there A number of people have said—indeed, it has been are no benefits—I know that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned in this debate—that perhaps the majority of does not seek to do that. Inward investment has helped homes owned by foreigners lie empty. We have looked at more homes to be built and it encourages confidence. the evidence carefully and Jones Lang LaSalle says that We need a balance to be struck, but overall London the vast majority of international buyers—85%—let benefits from being an open and diverse city, which property once purchased. There is, therefore, a benefit both welcomes and, indeed, attracts investment from in that homes built in response to that demand often—in around the globe. I look forward to continuing this 85% of cases—go on to be let. dialogue and to making sure that we continue to keep The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old on top of what is a difficult and vexed issue that we Southwark also asked whether wider research could be hope to challenge. commissioned for London in particular and, having Question put and agreed to. looked at his shopping list, I can see that he also wants some granularity. He will understand that this is a 5.29 pm devolved matter in London, but I will certainly bring House adjourned. 295WH 20 JUNE 2013 Interpreting and Translation Services 296WH

Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I congratulate my right Westminster Hall hon. Friend on the excellent report produced by his Committee. The summary says: “There was significant concern revealed in the consultation Thursday 20 June 2013 process that quality standards could be diminished by the imposition of a tiered system to enable a wider pool of interpreters, and by the introduction of lower levels of pay.” [MARK PRITCHARD in the Chair] Does he share my concern that that is evidence of trying to deliver an important service at the potential expense of quality? Does he think that his hon. Friend and Interpreting and Translation Services mine, the Minister, should review and be prepared to [Relevant documents: Interpreting and translation services revoke the system if it continues to be proven not to and the Applied Language Solutions contract, Sixth Report work? of the Justice Committee, Session 2012-13, HC 645, and the Government response, Cm 8600. Twenty-first Report Sir Alan Beith: I will return to how we proceed from of the Public Accounts Committee, Session 2012-13, The here. I am tempted to comment that people always say Ministry of Justice’s language service contract, HC 620, that when it is proved that standards fell after big and the Treasury minute, Cm 8556.] changes and that some of the predictions were fully Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting justified. That should be a warning to the Government, be now adjourned.—(Anne Milton.) as they engage in a number of other contracts. I will come back to that as well. 1.30 pm It is worth pointing out that the problems encountered by the Ministry in contracting for the work, while serious Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): It is a in themselves, also have implications for wide swathes of pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard, its other activities. The Ministry is putting out to contract and to have the opportunity to debate our report on the 70% of rehabilitative services under the transforming Applied Language Solutions contract, supplemented rehabilitation proposals, £450 million in custodial services by the National Audit Office report. I am glad to see over the next six years and a large part of criminal legal Members from all parties and different parts of the aid, all of which will be the subject of contracts. I do country here, including my hon. Friend the Member for not need to spell out that if things go wrong in those areas Redcar (Ian Swales), a member of the Public Accounts as they have in court interpreting, we face a multiple-train Committee, which also considered the matter in the crash. Does the Ministry really have the capacity to do context of the NAO report. the kind of contracting on which many of its policy Although that gives me pleasure, it gives me none to proposals are based? I am not arguing about whether it report that the subject of this debate is the procurement is a good or bad idea to contract out those things, but and management process undertaken by the Ministry of the Ministry must have the capacity to do so well and Justice. Serious flaws have been exposed in the Ministry’s properly. procedures and policies; the process was a shambles. Before I turn to the substance of the report, I will The contractual system for court interpreting, which mention another point of considerable concern to my came into operation at the end of last January, proved Committee: the Government’s insistence that they acted unsatisfactory from the outset and was subject to a reasonably in discouraging court staff from taking part boycott by many professional interpreters whose terms in the online forum that we set up as part of our inquiry and conditions of employment were adversely affected. to seek personal experiences of interpretation standards As we say in our report, that caused the adjournment or in court. That was a retrograde step. We did something severe delay of numerous hearings and, in criminal similar with prison officers. Many contributed to our cases, unnecessary remands into custody, with potential online forum, and as a result, we produced a much implications for the interests of justice. better-informed report than we could otherwise have One need not be an expert on court processes to done. We did the same thing with court staff, but they understand the dangers to justice that can arise from were strongly pressed by the Government not to co-operate. inadequate interpretation. We acknowledged in our report That is deplorable. We shall continue to use such that performance had improved markedly since the mechanisms where appropriate in our inquiries, not earliest days of the contract, but our verdict was not with any intention of getting civil servants to question dissimilar to the Ministry’s admission in response to policy, but to get a proper understanding of how it is our report that working on the ground. If Departments repeatedly give “performance…under the contract has not been of a satisfactory that kind of non-co-operation injunction to their staff, level”. they may find themselves in contempt of the House, and As I shall make clear a little later, on the available the whole House may seek to do something about it. measures, performance has still not reached required On the substance of our report, we recommended standards; if anything, it has slipped back. that the Ministry of Justice audit the amounts being It is good practice, and my Committee’s practice, to expended on interpreter pay and travel and said that it look again and follow up the recommendations made in might be necessary for the rate of pay for tier 1 interpreters reports. I advise the Minister—a former Justice Committee —the most highly qualified—to be increased. We also member—that this debate is not the end of my Committee’s said that the MOJ and Capita should prove that the interest in the subject, and it will not be possible for the framework agreement could attract, retain and deploy Ministry to escape parliamentary scrutiny after this an adequate number of interpreters to meet the debate. requirements of the courts and other agencies. We called 297WH Interpreting and Translation Services20 JUNE 2013 Interpreting and Translation Services 298WH

[Sir Alan Beith] The Minister gave us some more information in a letter dated 18 June. I am grateful to her for that. In the letter, on the professional interpreter community to work she says that steps have been taken to “scope and flexibly with the Ministry to find an acceptable way to initiate” the quality assessment and, following discussion restore their services to the justice sector. with interpreter groups, Capita and others, will commission In response, the Ministry introduced, with effect from the advice and report back to my Committee in the May, a number of changes to the system of remuneration autumn. Perhaps that should have been got on with a for interpreters, which it says amount to an average 22% bit quicker, because it is a pretty fundamental prerequisite increase in rates. Those changes involve mileage payments, for improving the service. I urge swifter progress. cancellation fees, payment in 15-minute blocks rather The Ministry has claimed that the changes to terms than by the minute, payment in accordance with the and conditions that it has made qualification tier of the interpreter and a daily fee for “will increase the number and availability of Tier 1 and Tier 2 incidental costs. We welcome those changes, but it is not interpreters and therefore reduce the need to use Tier 3 interpreters”. yet clear that they will be enough to encourage many more interpreters to undertake work under Capita’s In her letter of 18 June, the Minister says that it is too auspices, given the breakdown in relations between the early to say whether this is happening, although she Ministry and interpreters and the fact that many interpreters notes that Capita says that there is an increased interest cleave to the view that the framework agreement is in accepting bookings from their existing pool of fundamentally flawed and cannot be salvaged. interpreters. I should like the Minister to report back to my Committee in the autumn on the extent to which the The Ministry says in its response that it has met expectations have been satisfied. Professional Interpreters for Justice since late 2012, but goes on rather ruefully to say that it We noted in our report problems with performance data being compiled to demonstrate the effectiveness of “accepts that it will not always be possible to agree with the Professional Interpreters for Justice Group but seeks to maintain Capita in fulfilling courts’ requests. This is fundamental ongoing dialogue.” to a contract: there must be adequate performance data. Again, this reads across to some other contracts I am not surprised that my hon. Friend the Minister that the Ministry will have. should try to establish better relations—I would expect no less of her in going about things—but a lot more There were ambiguities about, for example, what work clearly needs to be done if the professional interpreter constituted a customer cancellation, which is an ambiguous community is to be won back. category. Professional Interpreters for Justice subtracts The group has a different slant on the dialogue. It cancellations from the total number of requests, as well says that it was invited to a meeting with the Ministry’s as failures by the contractor to deliver, to arrive at a interpretation project in March, at which it was presented figure of 80% of requests having been fulfilled by with a package of proposed changes. It says that changes Capita, which is way below the contract requirement. proposed at separate meetings by interpreters registered Even on the Ministry’s figures, performance is falling with Capita were rejected, and it does not accept that well short of the 98% target, and it tailed off markedly the Government’s changes will attract and retain in January. That cannot be regarded as satisfactory. It is interpreters. clear that, despite the substantial extra investment that The dialogue has been inauspicious from the outset. the company has made since taking over from ALS, We commented that the Ministry Capita continues to perform below the required standard under the contract. “did not have a sufficient understanding of the complexities of court interpreting work prior to initiating the procurement of a new service.” Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): Has We endorsed the NAO’s conclusion that the MOJ did the Committee had an estimate of the impact of the not give sufficient weight to the concerns and dissatisfaction cost of delays, extended custody and the performance expressed by many interpreters, even though having off-contract on the expected savings that this outsourcing sufficient numbers of skilled interpreters was essential was meant to deliver? to the new arrangements’ success, to return to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull Sir Alan Beith: No, but we think that the Ministry of (Lorely Burt). Justice should have some reasonable estimates of those A constructive dialogue requires both sides to participate costs. Such estimates are quite hard to put together, but with good will. When we published our report, we were we have talked to people in the courts—judges, counsel, encouraged by the Minister’s commitment to repairing solicitors and court staff—and they all point to incidents, relations, but can she explain why she thinks relations each of which involves significant additional costs, which between her Ministry and the main organisations do clearly have to be offset against the savings. not appear to have improved? On what evidence or other basis did the Ministry choose to make the changes Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): Does the on which it lighted? How does the Ministry plan to right hon. Gentleman share my concern that we are monitor those changes to ensure that they bring about hearing from people, such as the chairman of the Bar the desired improvements in the service? Council, about the significant costs and money wasted On the quality of interpretation, we agreed with the when trials collapse because of failures under the terms NAO that the tiered system should be independently of the contract? Does he share my view that perhaps we evaluated and that interpretation quality standards should would be better served if we considered saving those be independently reviewed. The MOJ said that it would costs, rather than embarking on a revolution in legal aid take that forward and report back to us on progress. provision and putting all that at risk again? 299WH Interpreting and Translation Services20 JUNE 2013 Interpreting and Translation Services 300WH

Sir Alan Beith: The hon. Gentleman is an assiduous We should not assume that there was some golden and welcome member of my Committee, but I would age under the previous arrangements for court interpreting. not make the rather rash claim that we could meet the We concluded in our report that, despite clear administrative savings that the Government want to make in the costs inefficiencies, there does not appear to have been any of legal aid out of getting this contract right. However, fundamental problem with the quality of services when we should be getting it right and so far that has not been sourced under the terms of the then national agreement. achieved. It is understandable that any Government would consider whether there were more efficient, cost-effective ways to Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I am also a provide the same service, but the principle must be to member of the Committee, so I am pleased that we are provide the same level of service. The Government debating this report. When the Ministry comes back to signally failed to achieve that objective. our Committee, does not the right hon. Gentleman We said that there think that it would be helpful if it came with an analysis “was clear potential for problems with ALS’ capacity to deliver of the amount of money lost by the non-attendance of on its promises which were not adequately anticipated or dealt interpreters, which my hon. Friend the Member for with either by the Department or by the contractor itself”. Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald) mentioned, and the ALS was a small undertaking, visibly lacking the capacity collapse of trials and all the costs that are loaded on to to undertake anything as major as the entire national all three parties: the court, the prosecution and the court interpreting provision. defence? The Ministry’s naivety at the start of the process appears to have been matched by its indulgence towards Sir Alan Beith: I would welcome a reasonable estimate underperformance against the contract once the new from the Ministry, but I should like it to devote most of arrangements came into operation. In introducing the its effort to moving from the bad situation that we have new framework agreement, the Ministry has alienated now to a better one. I would not want all its management many experienced court interpreters. The contract may to be occupied with collecting the figures, but if it starts have achieved a net book saving in its first year of to claim significant savings, I am afraid that we will all operation, but it has not, on the available evidence, want to insist that some of those costs are set against achieved any improvement in service to the courts. those claims. Indeed, on the information available to judge performance, which continues to be rather defective and limited, there Quite a lot of off-contract booking is going on—courts has been a deterioration in performance and a negative have to do it to meet the need to go ahead with a trial impact on the ability of the courts to do their job —but we need more information because we do not know properly. how extensive it is. Of course, that too is an extra cost item. The whole saga has been an inglorious one. It might almost have been constructed as a cautionary tale of Interpreters’ organisations have been compiling dossiers what a Department should avoid in undertaking a of instances where court proceedings have been disrupted procurement and contract management process. And by failings in the interpretation service. Such information this is a Department that intends to undertake several should be systematically captured by the Ministry. We such processes, some of them much larger even than recommended that there should be a user satisfaction this one, so some lessons have to be learned pretty measure, and the Ministry replied that it would discuss quickly. The standard of court interpretation needs to this with Capita and other partners. I should be grateful be restored, preferably by bringing back those whose for an update on these discussions. experience can return the service to the standards that A lack of basic management information has contributed the courts used to expect. to the Ministry’s apparent inability to monitor and drive better performance. For example, there are costs of defendants being remanded in custody, additional 1.48 pm legal aid costs and all the rest of it. We thought that the Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) Ministry (Lab): It is a pleasure to enter this debate under your “must get a better grasp of the costs of underperformance”. chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) I shall not quote the savings figures that the Ministry on producing this report. I am not a member of the Select quotes, which are seriously at risk because of the additional Committee on Justice or the Public Accounts Committee, costs involved. and members of those Committees will have given far The Minister could provide further clarification on more detailed scrutiny to the issues covered in the how much of the expenditure of £13.3 million in the first report. However, a constituent of mine, Madeleine Lee, year is accounted for by off-contract bookings. Perhaps a court interpreter, told me in my constituency surgery she could let us have that information later, if not today. in 2009 that a de facto pilot was going on in Greater We noted in our report that the problems arising in Manchester, and she explained what the consequences relation to the contract must have meant the Ministry’s would be, were it spread across the country. incurring additional administrative costs as a result of All Members of Parliament diligently follow what the higher than expected level of oversight that has our constituents wish, but when we are in government become necessary. The Ministry in its response gave a we have responsibility. I was Home Secretary at the time, figure for staffing costs of the core project of £315,000 but I spoke to the then Lord Chancellor, my right hon. between January 2012 and March 2013, but it did not Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw). The previous give an estimate of additional costs that it might have system emerged from the Runciman royal commission incurred. after a scandalous miscarriage of justice due to the 301WH Interpreting and Translation Services20 JUNE 2013 Interpreting and Translation Services 302WH

[Alan Johnson] I see that the Lord Chancellor’s Parliamentary Private Secretary, the hon. Member for Ilford North (Mr Scott), absence of interpreting services, and it was set up not is in his place behind the Under-Secretary, who just too long ago, in the late ’90s. As the right hon. Member happened to be in the Department when the music for Berwick-upon-Tweed said, my right hon. Friend the stopped. She was not in her present position when it Member for Blackburn accepted that the system was started; I believe she was then a member of the Select not perfect and that we needed to consider efficiency Committee that has been scrutinising the matter. savings. We concluded that we would have to be very Perhaps we would have made the changes, too. Who cautious about destroying something that, since Runciman, knows? Despite my discussions with the Lord Chancellor, had given court interpretation a level of quality that it we should not be trying to score party political points. did not have before; that was largely the result of setting In government, Ministers reach a stage where they see up the national register of professional service interpreters. that the only way to salvage their reputation following a I have followed the issue from a distance ever since. clearly big mistake is to accept that it is a big mistake As a former Minister, I have been at the rough end of and do something about it. The Government should several Select Committee reports in my time, but I have pull out of the contract, negotiate with professional never known three reports—the National Audit Office linguists and do all the things that should have been memorandum, the Public Accounts Committee report done beforehand. My conclusion, following the grand and now the Justice Committee’s report—to be so consistent reports from different Committees, is that my constituent, in their condemnation of a Government policy. A number Madeleine Lee, was right. of conclusions can be drawn from those reports. First, there were no fundamental problems with the original 1.55 pm procedures. Secondly, the Ministry of Justice changed those procedures without understanding their complexities, Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): It is or indeed the professionalism of the people providing a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the the services. This is a caricature, but it seems that first time, Mr Pritchard. This issue is of particular someone who knows a bit of holiday Spanish can now interest to me, not because I am on the Justice Committee come in and do a job in the courts, which has proved to or because I am a former Home Secretary or anything be disastrous. Thirdly, the MOJ awarded the contract to like that, but simply because it was brought to my a company, ALS, that is totally incapable of fulfilling its attention in the previous Parliament by constituents requirements. Surely there can be little doubt about who worked in the interpretation service. They told me that. I do not think there are many people in this debate about the dangers of what was then the initial move who will be arguing on the Government’s side, apart towards such a system by the police service in Greater from the poor Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the Manchester and some other police services across north- hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs west England. It is a shame that we did not learn from Grant). the mistakes of the original contract with the police service and stop this before it started. The final conclusion is that justice and the right to a I thank two of my constituents, Marc Starr and fair trial have been seriously compromised as a result of Kasia Beresford, who have been particularly helpful on this debacle. The added dimension, which the right hon. this issue over the years. Interestingly, the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed mentioned, is that Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan the MOJ sought to prevent a Committee of this House Johnson) mentioned Madeleine Lee, which is a name receiving first-hand testimony on the contract’s failings, that rings many bells, as I have received many e-mails which is a very serious allegation that the House must from her in recent times. I also pay tribute to the Select treat with due seriousness. Committee and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) for conducting Following the damning series of reports, the Lord the inquiry and for ensuring we had this debate following Chancellor’s latest letter to me—I have kept up the Government’s response. The issue is of great interest correspondence on the issue since the 2010 general election to many Members from across the UK. —tells me that there has been a £15 million saving. Quality standards have diminished, the courts have I apologise to the Minister because some of my made 6,417 complaints about poor standards, and remarks may not be particularly friendly towards the 608 magistrates court trials and 34 Crown court trials Ministry of Justice. I appreciate that she was landed with were recorded as ineffective in 2012 because interpreters this when she became a Minister, and that it was not of were not available, which is a 100% increase. There is a her doing. I appreciate that some of the things that have great deal of doubt about the £15 million figure, as the happened are certainly not a direct result of her being a right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed and others Minister, but of course she is now the person responsible have suggested. We hear that 48% of cases are now dealt for dealing with the mess in which we find ourselves. with outside the contract, and there are various other The Select Committee’s report is pretty damning. factors that make the £15 million figure questionable. The report accuses the Department of gagging staff Even if the figure is true, £15 million is the kind of small and stopping them from participating in the consultation, change that falls down the back of the sofas in the which the Committee suggests might be contempt of the offices of Secretaries of State. Even if the measure has House. Fortunately, it was able to get enough information saved £15 million, the resultant chaos in the Courts from other sources for it not to want to pursue that Service and the destruction of the quality of what was a matter. That prompts me to question what the Department very highly regarded system surely does not justify that had to hide. The report also pointed out that the level of savings, and it is doubtful whether such savings Department was warned throughout its consultation have been made anyway. that quality standards would dip due to the imposition 303WH Interpreting and Translation Services20 JUNE 2013 Interpreting and Translation Services 304WH of a tiered system and lower pay for interpreters. The In reality, the savings claimed by the MOJ do not report concluded that, although there were administrative include the costs of court delays, case adjournments, efficiencies compared with the previous arrangements, repeated remands in custody for offenders and all other there were no real fundamental problems with the quality related expenses of underperformance, including those of the service provided by members of the National of court clerks who have booked interpreters outside Register of Public Service Interpreters with a diploma the contract because of Capita’s poor service—that in public service interpreting. The national agreement, goes on, and it goes on a lot. Has the Department made with a few issues, worked reasonably well. any assessment of such costs? If not, how can the MOJ In a nutshell, the system was not broken. The MOJ stand by the claim that it has made significant savings in was warned that its proposals would cause problems, the first year of operation? I simply do not see how which certainly proved to be the case. When the Select it can. Finally on cost, the Department estimated the Committee decided to investigate, the MOJ tried to staffing costs of liaising with Capita and overseeing stop staff from assisting the inquiry. Frankly, that is not performance at £315,000 between January 2012 and good enough. March 2013. Will the Minister confirm whether those costs are being reimbursed by Capita? How much will In its response to the report, the Ministry of Justice the ongoing costs be of ensuring that its performance admitted a problem with performance: continues to be thoroughly scrutinised? “We know that performance in the MoJ under the contract has We are not only talking about money; we must not not been of a satisfactory level. Many of the points raised in the forget justice and access to justice. In giving evidence, Justice Committee’s report have already been acknowledged and acted on, and others are being actively taken forward. We have Mr Atkinson of the Law Society stated that while gone back to the Framework Agreement itself to see whether miscarriages of justice would occur infrequently, they changes can be made which will impact beneficially on performance, were possible. Even one miscarriage of justice is one too alongside ongoing work in the Department to improve our own many, but perhaps more concerning was his comment that processes. We are not complacent and are continuing to challenge “people are spending time in custody for no reason other than the and resolve issues which affect performance.” lack of an interpreter.” I argue, however, that the Department is being complacent. Again, that is not acceptable. The Government, according to their response, As the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull “expect that the changes to interpreters’ terms will increase the West and Hessle said, 608 magistrates court trials and number and availability of Tier 1 and 2 interpreters”. 34 Crown court trials were recorded ineffective in 2012, as a result of interpreters being unavailable—a 100% The changes, however, were not supported by the increase on the previous year. Does the Minister consider Professional Interpreters for Justice, the interpreters that acceptable? Furthermore, will the Minister tell the working for Capita or those with the tribunals service House how many defendants have remained in custody who attended meetings to discuss the changes. Will the as a result of ineffective trials that are a direct result of Minister explain how she can be so certain that the an interpreter not being available? changes will attract more well-qualified interpreters when 85% of well-qualified interpreters have made it I suspect that the Minister will tell me that she cannot clear that they will not work for Capita, because of the answer any of those questions—that the data are not lowering of professional standards? Professional Interpreters easily available and she does not know the answer. If so, for Justice made that clear back in March, and yet its she must accept that her Department cannot justify advice, the responses to the consultation and my debate continuing to defend the contract, and that we must back in 2007 have been completely ignored. look seriously at cancelling it. As I said, the Select Committee report made it clear that nothing was fundamentally wrong with the quality 2.5 pm of the service before the new contract was introduced. Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I, No one is suggesting that it was perfect or that too, congratulate the right hon. Member for Berwick- improvements could not have been made, but fundamentally upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) on initiating the debate it worked well. No one has seriously tried to defend the and on the report of his Select Committee. changes on the basis of driving up standards; they have always been about saving money. The right hon. Gentleman is known in the House for his understatement, and that is typified by his description The Justice Committee report recommended that the of the system under the new contract as “shambolic”. Department be clearer about the true costs of the contract. That is as over-kind a description as it is possible to The Department, in its response, claimed that the find. All the available information shows that the system framework agreement had made significant savings over is not only failing abjectly, but damaging seriously the the first year of the contract, but it failed to provide any administration of justice in this country. In addition, it evidence to back up that claim. The Government’s is costing the taxpayer huge sums of money in abandoned response recognises that certain costs are difficult to trials and in other ways. calculate, admitting: “Reasons for a hearing adjournment are not routinely recorded, Jeremy Corbyn: Does my right hon. Friend not think so it is difficult to identify adjournments for interpreting problems. that the lesson can be drawn wider than for the translation However, we would expect any difficulties with interpreting to be services alone? The Ministry of Justice and others are raised through the complaints system by staff.” obsessed with the contract culture. It distances Ministers If so, how can the Minister be certain that savings have from the immediacy of decisions and, at the other end, been made? The simple answer is that it is impossible to leaves the public and the victims in a much worse be certain whether any savings have been made under situation, with much less accountability on the delivery the contract. of services. 305WH Interpreting and Translation Services20 JUNE 2013 Interpreting and Translation Services 306WH

Sir Gerald Kaufman: I of course agree with my hon. It was just as well they both spoke Polish. In another Friend. The problem is that the Ministry of Justice has case, there was no interpreter for a Kurdish appellant. been administered with, on the one hand, a great deal of The court asked for one, but it was not provided, and indolence, which is the charming characteristic of the the case was adjourned to the following week. In a previous Secretary of State—for which we are all fond London court, a sex trial failed to proceed because the of him—and, on the other, miscalculation. I offer my interpreter failed to attend. The waste of money was sympathy to the Minister, who has the awful problem of £10,000, and the witnesses were devastated. The dossier responding to the debate convincingly and at the same also states that, in another case, there were no time honestly, but I point out that interfering with a “Punjabi interpreters in London so” system that works for ideological reasons is as barmy a one came from Derby, five hours late and left before reason as there ever was. If I have learned one rule during seeing the client in the cells after the hearing. It would my time in the House it is, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” be difficult to invent such incidents, yet they happened The system was not broken—it worked perfectly well—and, and we are told that it is all part of a dramatic improvement. because of an obsession of the kind that my hon. Another example came from Birmingham Crown court: Friend described, we now have an unbelievable mess. “Earlier this month I worked at one of my local police stations A number of my constituents have approached me (they are not with Capita). The duty solicitor was appalled by the about the matter, including Ali Hetherington, who has quality of Capita interpreters. He told me that apparently those provided me with a good deal of information. She told who are Tier 3 cannot speak English, one Capita interpreter sent me that the Ministry of Justice’s own performance his brother-in-law to Birmingham Crown Court for a trial, because figures indicate that levels of complaints and the number he couldn’t make it himself...I got the impression that the brother- of ineffective trials relating to interpreter provision have in-law wasn’t even an interpreter. Apparently the judge was risen steeply and shown no sign of abating. The Minister furious”. talks about savings of £15 million. The statistics provided If there is one thing this country should be proud of to her by her officials cannot be verified or established above all else it is the administration of justice. People’s in any way. First, we do not know what the savings are. lives, the state of law and respect for the law all depend Secondly, the calculation of those savings does not seem on sound administration of justice. Over and again, to take into account the huge sums of money that have that is not happening because of the contract. Will the been lost through failed and delayed trials and other Minister answer the following questions? First, how failings in magistrates and Crown courts caused by long does the contract last? Secondly, how much does it taking on Capita to carry out the job. cost? Thirdly, has there been any attempt to calculate Quality standards for court interpreters have been so the cost to the court system of the huge number of dramatically lowered that the substandard service provided Capita’s failures in what, for want of other words, I will by Capita is in no way comparable with the quality of call its interpretation system, and what penalties are previous provision. there? Let us look at the record. Capita took over the The view of many people who have been damaged by contract on 30 January 2012. Not once has it achieved its the system is that the contract should be ended immediately. target for interpreter requests. As my right hon. Friend How can it be ended and why have the Government not the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle done so? It is a sad day for this country that the system (Alan Johnson) said, there have been 6,417 complaints of justice of which we are so proud is so flawed as a and more than 600 court trials have been abandoned result of the Government’s action, which should never over a 12-month period due to lack of interpreters, and have taken place. the Ministry of Justice calls that a dramatic improvement. I would love to know what it would call a deterioration. Last 2.16 pm month, Capita provided only 48% of required interpreters. Throughout the period of the contract, it has operated Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): It is a pleasure, Mr Pritchard, in breach of its contract. It has doubled the number of to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate my ineffective trials, primarily due to interpreter incapability, right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed compared with a stable level in the previous five years. (Sir Alan Beith) not only on his diligent chairmanship I have been provided with a dossier of evidence, which of his Committee but on his comprehensive introduction no doubt other right hon. and hon. Members have seen. to the subject today. I am a member of the Public The indictment is appalling. We are talking about the Accounts Committee, which considered the matter on justice system, and people being put on trial and being 6 December 2012 and drew some shocking conclusions. found guilty or not guilty. We are talking about what Life on the Public Accounts Committee involves happens to their lives and the lives of their victims as a meeting twice a week and each time hearing about very result of failed trials. In the dozens of examples different situations, usually a litany of failure or in the dossier, again and again, interpreters have turned ineffectiveness. As a result, we become a little cynical or up late or not at all, or they did not speak the language even punch drunk. However, even by those standards, they were hired to interpret. In an example on page 16, the hearing on 6 December 2012 was appalling. I am an interpreter who spoke Bengali turned up to deal with reminded by the large number of people in the Public someone in the court who spoke the Congolese language Gallery today—no doubt some of them are personally of Lingala. Not only was the language wrong, but it interested in the matter—that we had a large attendance was spoken on the wrong continent. That happens in the Public Gallery on that day. It was one of the few again and again. hearings I remember when there was shaking of heads I will give some more examples from the dossier. In in the Public Gallery as Ministry officials responded to one, a barrister said that in the Committee. That is rare, but it happened repeatedly “court this morning a Lithuanian interpreter…turned up for a on that day, which says something about the officials’ Slovakian prisoner”. complacency, 307WH Interpreting and Translation Services20 JUNE 2013 Interpreting and Translation Services 308WH

Our Committee found, not surprisingly given what recently cancelled in my area because, unbelievably, the we have heard, that the outsourcing of interpreter services chosen interpreter was on trial in a neighbouring court was terribly mismanaged. We concluded that the Ministry at the same time. Extra costs for the Ministry are then lacked management information on the previous use of incurred by unnecessary trial postponements and delays. interpreters and therefore did not have a clear understanding Those costs have not been revealed but they will almost of the requirements when contracting out the service. It certainly be far more than the money saved on the did not know how much it was already spending on contract, and I urge the Ministry to measure the waste interpreters, or even how many interpreters were required in the courts system caused by the problem. or in what languages. As a result, the system it selected Whatever value-for-money considerations drove the was driven by bidders’ proposals rather than the actual original decision will now bear little relation to what requirements. has actually happened. It seems certain that there has Applied Language Solutions, the company that was been a net cost rather than a net benefit to the justice awarded the contract, was clearly incapable of delivering system. In short, the Public Accounts Committee found on such a large contract, yet it was handed £42 million a that the process descended into total chaos, and that year to cover the whole country, despite a credit rating almost everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. I report to the Ministry recommending that ALS should hope that the Ministry will follow up the recommendations not have been awarded a contract of more than £l million. of the PAC, the Justice Committee and the National Departmental officials could not adequately explain to Audit Office in order to clean up the mess. Given the the Committee why it had ignored that advice. It is one large potential contracts that the Ministry is looking to thing to make such a striking error in the first place, but award, it has a lot to do to convince the public that it the Committee also found that the Ministry failed to has learnt the lessons, and that contracts such as those penalise ALS effectively under the contract. Its penalty involving legal aid and rehabilitation— was only £2,200, and there was no penalty for the first four months when its performance was at its worst. Sir Alan Beith: Before my hon. Friend concludes, I Risible levels of penalties and low expectations of wanted to put this point to him, which is not always performance obviously allow private companies to get recognised or understood by people. What has happened away with over-promising and under-delivering. in this case, as is proposed in the case of legal aid, is that instead of outsourcing to a very large number of small, The Ministry should draft and implement future usually one-person businesses and making an assessment contracts to minimise transitional problems by piloting as to whether they are capable of doing it, the whole and rolling-out new systems gradually, and incentivising process of obtaining interpreters has been outsourced. contractors to meet contractual requirements from the It has been done on such a large scale that few organisations outset—for example, through the robust use of penalties. in the country would be able to do it. Will the Minister tell us what penalties have been levied on Capita for failure to deliver since it took over the Ian Swales: My right hon. Friend makes a valuable contract? ALS, of course, was handsomely rewarded point, which is of great concern to the Public Accounts for its failure. It sold the business on to Capita for Committee. We seem to have a number of Government £7.5 million only 10 months after winning the contract. Departments that—I suppose it is belt and braces—are As we often find on our Committee, the public sector making the outsourcing, or contracting-out process, so had no say in that reassignment and certainly got no complicated that now only four or five companies can financial benefit from the on-selling. That is something win the bid. The whole job is how a bid is won and not we see constantly in the public sector: it is now a what the service is, because frequently the people who business to win a public sector bid or a PFI contract win the bids do not do the work. Eddie Stobart will not and then trade it on. That is how companies really make be providing legal aid; its expertise is winning a Government money, and ALS is a good example of it. bid. That is the almost farcical situation that we have now got into. The Ministry needs to learn the lessons The Ministry estimated that it would need access to from that process, particularly as it seems to be about to 1,200 interpreters to meet its requirements. However, it do some very similar things on a much bigger scale. allowed the contract to go live when the supplier had only 280 interpreters ready to work under the terms of One of the other issues that we have—we use the the contract. The Ministry believed that many more expression on our Committee “following the public interpreters were available to work, in line with contractual pound” —is that the more this type of thing happens, obligations, than was actually the case, because it received the less access the National Audit Office has to the over-optimistic assurances from ALS and there was people who are doing the work. If the services are run confusion over definitions of what important terms by the Department, the NAO can be all over them, but such as “registered” actually meant. The Ministry was typically, the contracts do not provide transparency or also unable to confirm that all interpreters working access, so our auditors are unable to get into the key under the contract had the required qualifications, providers. experience and enhanced Criminal Records Bureau checks. In summary, the Minister needs to convince us about the lessons learnt, and about what improvement actions The company was only able to meet 58% of its will be taken. I feel—not my Committee but I, personally— bookings, initially, against a target of 98%, which is that a lot of scrutiny by a lot of people should take entirely unacceptable. As previous speakers have said, it place before we walk into the same trap again, and I is not only about the mechanics of the contract; we are fear that the Public Accounts Committee may have a lot talking about people’s lives and life-changing decisions more work coming down the road towards it. that may be made on their behalf. People who needed the services have paid a heavy price for the Ministry’s Mark Pritchard (in the Chair): Before I call John incompetence. We have seen a sharp rise in the number Mann, to be helpful, I just say that I intend to start the of ineffective trials, as others have said. A trial was wind-ups at 2.30 pm. 309WH Interpreting and Translation Services20 JUNE 2013 Interpreting and Translation Services 310WH

2.25 pm of what the Chair of the Select Committee, the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): In three minutes, I will has called a shambles, she has been defending that summarise my concerns for the Minister and the Chamber. shambles since she was appointed, so she does need to I used to own a large interpreting company, and I give some clear and full answers today. looked at this form of interpreting and whether, even on a micro scale, it was possible to break into that market. Included in the contribution from the Chair of the It is not, because it is not possible to manage quality Select Committee was the worrying information, which control. With other forms of interpreting, a range of is in the report, that there was interference with the techniques can be used; anyone can work through what inquiry by the Ministry of Justice to prevent the fullest the control mechanisms on quality should be, if they account of what has happened coming to light. Perhaps know what they are about. When it comes to this form the Minister would like to address that and say whether of interpreting, that is not possible. Capita—or any she wishes to see that there is no repetition of it in the other large conglomerate—cannot possibly manage quality. future. It is difficult not to conclude that the reason for By definition, it does not know what the quality is, it was that the Ministry did not want the full facts of the because it cannot employ the people who know what contract to emerge. I am delighted to hear that this is the quality is. I do not have the time to go through how not the end of the matter for the Select Committee, techniques to do that can be devised for other forms of because it not only has severe implications, as many interpreting, but that is how I grew my business, and I hon. Members have said, for the quality and the standard grew it to a very large one. of justice in our courts, but it has implications for the This is nonsense, regardless of Capita, and we know Ministry of Justice’s generally shambolic tendering how bad Capita is from the shambles that it made of the processes. miners’ compensation scheme, when, again, it did not My right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon have the managerial experience. That was something Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) said that in his that could have been managed, in theory, but it was experience, and looking at the three substantial reports hopeless. Managing quality cannot be done by a large from the NAO, the Justice Committee and the PAC, he corporate of that scale; it is not simply about Capita. had rarely seen such an indictment. My right hon. Also, the real flexibility needed in providing these Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald services involves knowing the people because, in essence, Kaufman) quoted some, but only some, of the examples there is a trade-off—a negotiation. The employer will of failure. The dossier from which he was reading is say, “I desperately need you tomorrow, because we only one of several dossiers about hundreds of individual suddenly have this case”—or this prisoner, or whatever cases that have been prepared. I was grateful for those else—“and you have to do it, because I have no other option. contributions, and grateful also for the contributions X, Y and Z are not available; you will have to cancel from the hon. Members for Manchester, Withington your hospital appointment and do it.” That trade-off in (Mr Leech), and for Redcar (Ian Swales), and my hon. the real world, with real people, works. Trying to put a Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), who conglomerate in charge never works, and that is why, brought to the debate their own experience, either from even on a small-town basis, my company decided that it their private life or from the Committees on which they was not worth approaching Government to suggest that have served. we attempt to run part of the system and contract in the A number of Members wanted to take part in the interpreters. It is not possible, aside from the other debate, and what their contributions come to, in summation, issues of whether a company is any good or not. is the anatomy of a disaster. The Ministry set out to That is the fundamental issue that the Ministry of save relatively small amounts of money; I shall explain Justice and the Minister need to address. They do not why I use that phrase. Some Members—certainly Members know what they are talking about, and they have created on the PAC—will have seen the interrogation by the this system. Whoever runs it, it will not work, and it Chair of the PAC, my right hon. Friend the Member for cannot work. Even if it continued on a mediocre basis, Barking (Margaret Hodge), of the senior responsible quality cannot be assured—ever. That is a fundamental officer, who had not read the report and was not aware problem for British justice, and it is one that the Minister of the fact that when a £42 million contract was let to needs to address. [Interruption.] ALS, it was subject to a £1 million limit. He had not read that because he thought that it was de minimis and Mark Pritchard (in the Chair): Order. I remind the below his estimable gaze, and things went from bad to public that we do not allow clapping in Westminster worse in that interrogation. Hall. There appears to have been no assessment of the risk in this case. There has been contempt for the way in 2.29 pm which professional interpreters should be dealt with. I am very grateful for the way in which professional Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): You have interpreters have assisted us. I particularly mention ruined the round of applause at the end of my speech, Geoffrey Buckingham of the Association of Police and Mr Pritchard. It is a pleasure to serve under your Court Interpreters, but I am also referring to many of chairmanship this afternoon. the organisations that make up Professional Interpreters If the Minister did not know at the beginning of the for Justice. They have been prepared to brief hon. debate how important this issue was, she will now, from Members at length on what is going wrong in our courts the quality of the debate and from the contributions every day. The only party that appears not to wish to from Members on both sides of the House, including listen to that is the Ministry of Justice, which is why we from very senior Members of the House; and whereas it have had the meltdown in our courts during the past is right to say that she did not preside over the inauguration 18 months. 311WH Interpreting and Translation Services20 JUNE 2013 Interpreting and Translation Services 312WH

Let me deal first with the issue of costs. I do not according to Capita— expect to get an answer from the Minister on costs, “as they would ‘not make enough money’.” although many hon. Members have asked her about That was described by the hon. Member for Northampton them. I have been trying to get answers to these questions North (Michael Ellis) as the service being “out of for months through parliamentary questions and Freedom control”. I wonder whether the Minister agrees with her of Information Act inquiries. Let me tell Members what colleague’s view on that matter. A murder case is going my latest inquiries have gained me. I asked the Ministry on today at Birmingham Crown court for which no to provide the information on wasted costs in courts, Capita interpreter—certainly at the time when I was and it said that it would not do that, although it could, briefed, early this morning—had turned up, and that because it was too expensive. I am appealing that decision, case is therefore also in jeopardy. because it seems to me that the Ministry could simply contact each court and ask it to supply that information I do not think that I have to elucidate for Members at as raw data, and my office could collate that. Failing that, this debate how serious these matters are, not just in I asked whether the Ministry would provide me with the terms of cost but in terms of the administration and e-mail addresses of the country’s courts, so that I could execution of justice. I am not being pompous in saying undertake the exercise myself, and it said, wrongly, that that these matters go not just to the heart of the that information was available publicly. It is not available Administration, but to the heart of justice itself. publicly, so I am appealing that as well. The fact that the I have with me the translation of an article from response to one of those inquiries was addressed to Mr Lithuanian, and because it was done by someone on the Safranov and the other one was unopenable and caused National Register of Public Service Interpreters, it is my computer to crash only confirms that the Ministry is certified and I trust it as a translation. It is from a either unable or unwilling to provide the information Lithuanian website and is telling people about the because it knows how devastating it is likely to be. interpreting service in this country. It quotes a Lithuanian What we do know—these are in part estimates but interpreter in the UK as saying this about dealing with also in part statistics—is that about 50% of the requirement clients: for interpreters is being fulfilled through the Capita “We just advise them to tell the truth about how everything contract. We know that after 500 days, the alternative happened. For example, how and where they went to steal”. system—courts finding their own interpreters—is still The most fundamental part of an interpreter’s job is not in effect. We know that whereas the Ministry claims to interfere in the process of justice—not to do the that from a 58% starting point, Capita’s performance solicitor’s or the barrister’s job and certainly not to give has got better, which is not much of a claim, in fact it the client legal advice or advice on how to conduct got worse again from the middle of last year—it does themselves, yet that appears to be the way in which not acknowledge that. I think that my right hon. Friend these matters are routinely conducted. the Member for Manchester, Gorton, gave the figures for the trials that have been aborted—more than 600 in In the few moments left to me, I would like to deal the magistrates court and more than 30 in the Crown with where we go next. I do not think that the case court over that period. against this contract has to be made any further; I think thatwehavetosay,“Wheredowegonow?” Those are appalling figures, but it should not be up to any Member of the House to go away and find out that The MOJ is in a parlous state, in terms of letting information. That information should be made available, contracts; its complete reliance on payment by results; and if the Minister does not have it available, perhaps what it is doing with the probation service; and what it she could undertake today to give a clear answer about is threatening to do with the privatisation of the entire the costs of the failure of the ALS-Capita contract. Courts Service. I read in the technical press this week They include, of course, not only the costs from wasted that a £300 million MOJ desktop and laptop support court time, but the costs from unnecessary remand, the contract has been postponed, reportedly after the four costs to the Crown Prosecution Service and the costs to most serious contenders had already spent millions the Prison Service. bidding. That is the computer contract for the entire court, prison and probation system, which has been in In relation to the impact, I will not read out a great planning for some years and which has now simply been swathe of examples from the dossiers that have been pulled. We do not know why; perhaps the Minister will prepared, but they range from the hugely serious to the tell us. The point is that there is no coherence to the almost comic. Examples include interpreters who cannot contract letting process in the MOJ and the contract is translate the word “guilty”; an attempted murder case perhaps the clearest example of it. It is also one of the in which the interpreter had received no training and smallest contracts that it has let, and I fear for what may did not appreciate the need to translate everything; an now happen. interpreter who chatted to witnesses about the case, causing a mistrial after 12 days; and a Crown court trial So what should now happen? First, the Government that was postponed because there was no rare language need to stop being in denial about the failure of the interpreter, the rare language being Polish—the second contract. They need to stop saying that there has been a most commonly spoken language in the UK. This is dramatic improvement when the situation is getting going on now. worse. They need to stop misrepresenting what they say There was the very serious quadruple murder case at about the view of professional interpreters. In their Nottingham Crown court last month. The BBC report response to the Select Committee, they claimed that the stated: slight amelioration of conditions was something that “The failure of an interpreter to show up for a murder suspect’s had been welcomed. Nothing could be further from the court appearance has been described as a ‘complete disgrace’ by a truth, and it is clear in the minutes of the meetings judge…No Mandarin interpreter was available, and Nottingham between the Minister, officials and interpreters that the Crown Court heard it was ‘not worthwhile’ for one to turn up”— terms being offered do nothing to meet the concerns of 313WH Interpreting and Translation Services20 JUNE 2013 Interpreting and Translation Services 314WH

[Mr Andy Slaughter] Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Will the Minister give way? the professional interpreters or to adequately compensate them. Until the Minister realises that and begins to Mrs Grant: Let me make some progress, and I will address that matter, the contract will continue to fail. give way later. What interpreters want is the reinstatement of the Remuneration now more closely reflects the work national agreement; proper—not excessive, but fair— being undertaken and is more closely aligned to the remuneration and conditions of service; legislation to rates on offer for similarly qualified people in other protect the title of registered public service interpreter, public services. We do not deny that there were teething so that there will no longer be the types of extraordinary problems during the early stages of the new contract, cases that we have heard examples of this afternoon; and as the Ministry said in its response to the Justice and to work with the Government to establish a regulatory Committee’s report, the initial performance was not professional body that is robust and rigorous in its satisfactory. Contingency plans were put in place quickly approach, enabling interpreters to provide quality and had a direct effect. Disruption was kept to a minimum; interpreting services to public bodies. They do not seem we pushed Capita to improve matters urgently; and extreme or unreasonable claims or ambitions. there was a significant outlay of investment on its part There is a break clause in the contract. The Government to improve services. could—and should—act now to suspend while they In the year 30 January 2012 to 31 January 2013, there determine how they can properly address the concerns were more than 131,000 requests for language services, raised. In my opinion, there is now sufficient evidence covering 259 different languages, and the overall success that the contract with Capita should not continue. rate was at 90%. That is a significant improvement on I will stop now, because I want to give the Minister the 67% successful booking rate in February 2012. The sufficient time to reply to all the points that have been number of complaints received, as against the number raised. She is a courteous Minister, but she tends to read of bookings made, has fallen significantly. From February from her civil servant’s brief, rather than answering the 2012 to August 2012, complaints fell from 10.6% to points raised in debate. As we have a full house today 1.7% in criminal courts; from 6.3% to 0.8% in civil and and interpreters are present who have come to hear the family courts; and from 19.2% to 5.6% in tribunals. Government’s current stance, I hope we will hear about We take our responsibilities seriously, and we have some progress and movement towards a fair deal for ensured that each complaint is investigated. As has been interpreters, which is important, because they are said during the debate, lessons must be learned. I can professional people whose livelihoods are at stake, and assure hon. Members that lessons truly are being learned. that we can have within the courts of England and Wales what we used to take for granted. Certainly when I was Ian Swales: A 90% success rate can also be described in practice, I would take it for granted that interpreters as a 10% failure rate. Can the Minister remind the House would be competent, efficient, present, and able to what success percentage was expected in the contract? discharge their duties. On the point I made in my speech, what fines have Capita had for failing to meet the standards of the Mark Pritchard (in the Chair): Minister, as is convention, contract? I intend to call the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon- Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) to make some concluding remarks Mrs Grant: The ideal success rate is 98% and I believe for two or three minutes, if he wishes to do so, before the fines were approximately £1,400 or £1,500. I can get the end of this debate. that figure for my hon. Friend, but 98% is what we are aiming at and what we are determined to achieve. I am confident that we will. 2.44 pm We have acknowledged and acted on many of the points The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice rightly raised by the Justice Committee, the National (Mrs Helen Grant): It is a pleasure to serve under your Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee, and chairmanship today, Mr Pritchard. I genuinely welcome we have genuinely gone right back to the contract to see the opportunity to listen to the debate. I shall do my where changes could benefit performance. We are not very best to respond to the issues raised today and to complacent; we continue to meet the challenges head the important report of the Justice Committee. on. For the first time, we can honestly say that we have a I would like to affirm my Department’s appreciation system that delivers a sustainable service and includes of the services provided to the justice system by interpreters, easily quantifiable standards—a system in which people many of whom I can see in the Chamber today. They in the justice sector can have confidence. Improvements ensure fairness in courts and tribunals; they encourage have been made, but we have more work to do and we confidence in the justice system; and they are a vital will endeavour to do it. part of the service that is provided. It is well known, I would like to respond to some of the key aspects of however, that the old system was not ideal. It was the Justice Committee’s report. Many questions have inefficient, inadequate and did not provide good value been asked of the Government today, but I will do my for money. Those issues were noted by the National best to respond to a number of the specific issues raised, Audit Office in its report. The new contract and framework starting with remuneration. The framework agreement agreement were developed to address, as far as possible, between the Ministry and Capita has allowed us to those inadequacies. The reality is that we could no longer make significant savings of some £16.7 million in the afford to reward people in a way that bore no relation to first year. Such savings are much needed in the current the levels of work that they carried out. The National financial climate, but I recognised that the savings were Audit Office recognised that important reality, too. affecting performance and we therefore ploughed an 315WH Interpreting and Translation Services20 JUNE 2013 Interpreting and Translation Services 316WH estimated £2.9 million of them back into the system. As borough. We used interpreters regularly, and the system I announced in the House on 25 April, the Department was not good. It was expensive and unpredictable, has amended the terms of the contract with Capita to notwithstanding the fact that many of the interpreters increase remuneration for interpreters. The terms now we used were outstanding. The system needed to change, include cancellation fees and greater rewards for more and it has. It needs to be noted, as I have already said, highly qualified interpreters. that we do not have supply problems at the moment. Where there have been problems, they have tended to Mr Leech: Does the Minister accept that the vast involve the more challenging and unusual languages. majority of interpreters who currently refuse to work We have also saved a considerable amount of money, for Capita have made it clear that they will continue to which is welcome in these very difficult financial times. refuse to do so? With regard to performance data, the Committee raised issues about the clarity of our published performance Mrs Grant: I am afraid I do not accept that. We do figures, and I can confirm that the latest statistics were not have supply problems at the moment. The reality of published on 28 March in accordance with the guidance the situation is that we are fulfilling contracts. Our issued by the UK Statistics Authority. changes equate to an average increase of 22% in On cost savings, which several hon. Members have remuneration rates, which will attract new and retain mentioned, we estimate that the cost of interpreters to existing good-quality interpreters. the Ministry was previously around £30 million per annum. Regarding stakeholders, we continue to discuss Based on cautious assumptions, we have made savings developments with interpreters and with Capita. There of about £16.7 million, against an expected forecast of has been open and frank dialogue between the Ministry £12 million, and as I have stated, we have invested and the Professional Interpreters for Justice group, and £2.9 million back into the system, to make the contract we seek to maintain a productive dialogue. We have a sustainable. common interest in ensuring that language is not a barrier to justice, and that shared vision was clear to me at a Dr Huppert: I understand the drive to save money, meeting with the Professional Interpreters for Justice but can the Minister be clear whether that £16.7 million group that I chaired at the end of 2012. I recognised the saving takes into account the extra costs for cases that commitment, the concern and the care. have had to be rescheduled, delayed or scrapped? In relation to quality, the contract allows for a greater range of acceptable qualifications and experience than Mrs Grant: If my hon. Friend will bear with me, I will previously, but there are, of course, suitable safeguards. come to that point—I am barely halfway through and All foreign language interpreters must provide evidence will go on for a fair bit longer. of their qualifications before they can undertake assignments, qualifications which in many instances are The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for the same as those required by the National Register of Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), and my right hon. Friend Public Service Interpreters. the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) talked about participation in the online survey. As the Tiering interpreters according to their skills is the Ministry of Justice had co-operated fully, we took the right approach to delivering a sustainable system. Courts view that it would not be appropriate to invite court and tribunals expect as a minimum a tier 1 or tier 2 staff to submit further evidence via the online forum set interpreter for a hearing, and that has been set out in up by the Select Committee. We took that action because staff guidance. There is, however, flexibility, and very the civil service management code and the Osmotherly occasionally the court or tribunal, together with the rules state that officials judge, can be asked to decide if the complexity of the “should not take part in research projects or surveys designed to case would allow for the appointment of a tier 3 interpreter. establish their personal views on Government policies”. Our changes to remuneration should also attract more interpreters to tiers 1 and 2. We considered it right and proper to follow those rules. I accept the Justice Committee’s recommendation The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West that a quality criterion within the framework should be and Hessle (Alan Johnson) referred to the adequacy of independently evaluated, and the Ministry is initiating the previous system. Setting aside my own experience, I that work and will be in a position to update the Justice can say that the system was inefficient because an MOJ Committee in the autumn. I want to make it crystal audit found it to be risky, and the National Audit Office clear, however, that it is the role of the service provider— agreed that it was inadequate and did not provide good namely, Capita—to ensure that those who work within value for money. the framework meet the required standards. The right hon. Gentleman also referred to due diligence, and I can tell him that the procurement process was fair Dr Huppert: This matter has been raised with me by a and competitive and that due diligence checks were number of constituents who have been affected both as carried out. However, lessons must be learned from the interpreters and through the legal system. The Minister comments made by the Justice Committee and the is right that things are not as disastrously bad as they NAO, and those from our own assessment. Along with originally were, but how will she ultimately decide whether other hon. Members, he raised the suitability of ALS. the whole thing simply is not fixable? What test will she ALS had a background in the sector, and we felt that it apply? had the capacity to expand to meet our needs, but, of course, that was not the case. Mrs Grant: With respect, I do not think that we need A number of Members have mentioned inefficiencies to do that. I have no intention of being arrogant. I used in trials and the disruption and costs that have flowed to work in the system as a lawyer in an edgy London from ineffective trials. Magistrates courts listed more 317WH Interpreting and Translation Services20 JUNE 2013 Interpreting and Translation Services 318WH

[Mrs Grant] Mr Slaughter: I was not greatly shocked to be told that recovering the figures that I asked for would involve than 80,000 trials in the first and second quarters of a disproportionate cost. If the Minister is going to 2012. Just 345—0.4%—were unable to proceed because persist with that line, she cannot give a figure for savings, of interpreter problems. Although I absolutely acknowledge because, if it is accurate, it is clearly a gross figure. The that it is not good for any trial not to proceed, contingency collapse of any of the serious Crown court trials that I plans were put in place to make sure that disruption was mentioned will cost tens, if not hundreds, of thousands as small as possible. of pounds. The Government must be able to make some estimate of the costs. It is not good enough just to say, “We’re not going to collect that information from the [JIM SHERIDAN in the Chair] courts.” Although it may not be 100% accurate, we need some idea of the cost to the public purse of this contract Quality of service has been a recurring theme. We are going ahead. satisfied with the quality of the interpreters being used, but, as I mentioned, there will be an independent evaluation this year, and we will update the Justice Committee in Mrs Grant: I am afraid that I cannot honestly say any the autumn on its progress. more than I have already said; I do not want to be disingenuous. I take on board what the hon. Gentleman The hon. Member for Hammersmith mentioned the cost says, and if we can do any more—if we can give him any of cases not going ahead. I am sorry that he has had so further and better particulars—I will be happy to try to much trouble getting a satisfactory response. I am not do so. sure whether I will do much better today, but I always like to try when I am facing him. All I can say is that The system has been operating well in the National courts deal with thousands of cases every day. Some Offender Management Service. The senior presiding cases do not go ahead, often for a variety of reasons, judge told the NAO that the system had improved since and calculating the cost could take a disproportionate initial roll-out through the Ministry’s actions. I am amount of time and money. pleased to confirm that complaints are declining. I have outlined the improvements in our success rate. Just The future is important. It might be worth saying 0.4% of magistrates court listings were delayed because that the NAO agreed that our procurement process was of interpreter problems in the first and second quarters fair and competitive and that the contract should be of 2012, which was the difficult period. We will continue fully implemented. Our review identified a number of to work closely with our partners and to bring about processes that have since been improved. changes that deliver improved performance in the future.

Mr Leech: Will the Minister confirm how many other 3.6 pm potential operators were left in the process at the end? My understanding is that only one was left. Everyone Sir Alan Beith: Conscientious though my hon. Friend else had been ruled out as being incapable of fulfilling the Minister is, she will not have convinced any of us the contract. that the situation is acceptable and sustainable. The Minister referred to court staff being told not to Mrs Grant: That is a specific and very fair point, and respond to the Committee’s survey. At no time did the I will have to write to my hon. Friend about it. Committee seek to pit the opinions of staff against The Department does not propose to change the those of Ministers; that would be wrong, and we would current key performance indicators under the contract not seek to do it. Committees will continue to collect and framework agreement. The current suite of information information about how contracts are operating, and if available to us allows us closely to manage the performance Departments maintain their current line—the Ministry of the contract. Capita provides us with the number of of Justice has not done so on other occasions—they will complaints, which we closely monitor and publish as be on a collision course with the House. part of our regular official statistics. However, we are The Minister referred to teething problems, which is willing to discuss with Capita and our other justice an extraordinary way to describe the total failure to sector partners whether a user satisfaction measure, as meet contract requirements in the early part of the suggested by my right hon. Friend the Member for contract. That should have attracted penalty or break Berwick-upon-Tweed, can be added to the management clauses in the contract. We questioned the head of the information already collected. A key performance indicator Courts Service, who said that there were break clauses on quality will also be considered in the independent that he could activate. As my hon. Friend the Member assessment that, as I indicated, is due to take place this for Redcar (Ian Swales) said, the current situation—90% year. achievement against a 98% target—represents a failure The Government are clear that the new contract had to meet the contract requirements, which should probably a number of problems, and we have taken lessons on attract a penalty. board. We realise that it is unacceptable for any case not The Minister will never convince us that the savings to go ahead. We now have a system that is robust, figures take adequate account of the additional cost to sustainable and able to deliver a quality service to the system. I am afraid this issue will continue to be people in the justice sector at an affordable level. controversial. 319WH 20 JUNE 2013 Non-Proliferation Treaty 320WH

BACKBENCH BUSINESS place themselves open to inspection by the International Atomic Energy Agency, which is based in Vienna. The Non-Proliferation Treaty five declared nuclear weapons states—Britain, France, the Soviet Union, the USA and China—agreed to ensure that there was no proliferation of their weaponry, and 3.7 pm to take steps towards their own eventual nuclear Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I am delighted disarmament. that we are having this debate on the operation of the The treaty’s progress has been patchy, to say the least. nuclear non-proliferation treaty and the UK contribution It is subject to a five-yearly review, and I have attended to it. This is an extraordinarily serious issue, and our several review conferences as vice-chair of the Campaign attitude towards nuclear weapons and nuclear weapons for Nuclear Disarmament and chair of the parliamentary states, as well as the prospects for our own disarmament, CND group. I am not making a declaration of interest, are hugely important. I hope that the Minister will be as there is no pecuniary gain in being an officer of able to tell us what the Government’s commitment is to CND; indeed, it costs quite a lot of money, but it is a joy promoting nuclear non-proliferation. to do. The review conferences are designed to monitor Nuclear weapons have existed since the second world what is happening, but also to make proposals for a step war. They have been used only once in a war scenario—at forward. The review conference of 2010, with the support Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945. Several hundred thousand of a large number of states, proposed an international people lost their lives in a flash—literally—but the cancers conference on the humanitarian effects of nuclear war. have carried on for 50 years. The cancers brought about That conference was held in Oslo, Norway, last year, by nuclear testing and nuclear pollution around the and was supported by 77 countries. Unfortunately, none world have carried on for a long time. We are dealing of the permanent five members chose to attend. There with weapons of mass destruction, which would cause is no undertaking as yet about whether the UK Government very large numbers of civilian casualties, should they will participate in its recall, which is due to happen in ever be used again. Mexico early next year. I think that the conference The development of nuclear weapons by the United should be supported, and that we should recognise the States during the second world war was supported by a good work that Mexico has done in being prepared to lot of scientists from Britain. For a short period during take the baton from Norway and make sure the conference the war, and for a long period afterwards, all the powers happens. The situation is even more peculiar given the relied on captured Nazi scientists to develop their own close relationship between Britain and Norway, and, nuclear weapons—that was particularly true of the USA indeed, their co-operation on nuclear disarmament issues and the rocketry that went with them. and the decommissioning of nuclear weapons. Will the Shortly after the second world war, the then Soviet Minister give a firm undertaking that the UK will Union developed nuclear weapons, followed by Britain attend the conference? and France, and lastly China, which exploded its first Several countries have in the past 20 years taken steps nuclear weapon in 1964. Interestingly, the development that have lessened nuclear tensions in certain places. of British nuclear weapons was always shrouded in The most dramatic example was when post-apartheid secrecy and mystery. Brilliant as he was in many ways as South Africa, led by President Mandela, announced that a Prime Minister, the post-war Labour leader, Clement it would no longer develop any nuclear weapons, and Attlee, managed to spend £200 million—an enormous would completely disarm. That in turn brought about a sum now, never mind then, when it was worth far nuclear weapons-free continent of Africa. That was an more—on secretly developing Britain’s own supposedly amazing step forward. We must ask ourselves who has independent nuclear missile. That practice was copied the greater moral standing in the world: Britain, France, by a later Prime Minister, Jim Callaghan, who in 1979 Russia, China and the USA, for their continued holding managed to develop the Chevaline project in secrecy, and developing of nuclear weapons; or South Africa, without even the Cabinet being informed. for ridding itself of apartheid and, shortly afterwards, Since the development of nuclear weapons, there has of nuclear weapons? Those events were followed by been one major occasion when there was a serious nuclear weapons-free zones for the whole of Latin likelihood of their use. That was the Cuban missile America and for central Asia, and a continuing debate crisis of 1963, which was resolved when the Soviet about the possibility of such a zone for the Arctic, Union agreed not to put nuclear weapons on the island which would be a major achievement. I hope that we of Cuba. In return the United States agreed to remove shall be able to develop a nuclear weapons-free middle its nuclear missiles that were targeting Soviet targets east, which would be a huge prize. from Turkey—although that was done secretly. A year A humanitarian initiative was adopted at the end of later, both the leaders who negotiated on that were the Oslo conference and signed by 77 of the 106 states either dead or gone. Khrushchev was removed by an attending, and it is a lesson for all of us. It says: internal process, and Kennedy of course was assassinated. “The catastrophic effects of a nuclear weapon detonation, What came out of that period was a realisation of just whether by accident, miscalculation or design, cannot be adequately how dangerous nuclear weapons are, and how dangerous addressed. All efforts must be exerted to eliminate this threat. The it would be if they proliferated further. A great achievement only way to guarantee that nuclear weapons will never be used again is through their total elimination. It is a shared responsibility was the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, which was of all States to prevent the use of nuclear weapons, to prevent signed in 1970. their vertical and horizontal proliferation and to achieve nuclear There are several elements to the treaty. One is the disarmament, including through fulfilling the objectives of the agreement, by countries that sign it, not to develop nuclear NPT and achieving its universality.” weapons. They can develop nuclear power and civil There is a message for all of us from the countries that nuclear facilities, but not nuclear weapons. They also have deliberately not developed nuclear weapons. 321WH Non-Proliferation Treaty20 JUNE 2013 Non-Proliferation Treaty 322WH

[Jeremy Corbyn] The Egyptian statement, which I heard, said: “Egypt strongly supports the NPT regime. It has always India, Pakistan, North Korea and Israel do, championed the cause of a nuclear weapon free world. However, unfortunately, have nuclear weapons, and I want to talk the establishment of a Middle East nuclear weapon free zone is about them, and the question of Iran. India and Pakistan essential for our national interest. We cannot wait forever for the were both initially signatories to the NPT. Both declared launching of a process that would lead to the establishment of that they did not want to develop nuclear weapons, and this zone, a process that was repeatedly committed to within the NPT. We cannot continue to attend meetings and agree on eventually both did. Each has its weapons targeted at outcomes that do not get implemented, yet be expected to abide the other, and it would be the ultimate folly for either by the concessions we gave for this outcome.” side to use them—the madness of mutually assured After making that statement, Egypt withdrew from the destruction. If a nuclear weapon were sent from Delhi process. to Lahore, or Lahore to Delhi, neither side would know which was sent first, because both sides would be There is now a serious danger that other countries in annihilated. There is also something tragic about the the middle east—one thinks of Saudi Arabia and others— fact that, although India is in many ways a fast-developing will decide to withdraw from the NPT process, because economy and a rapidly modernising country, it still has of the failure of the secretariat and the permanent five the largest number of poor, starving children in the to ensure that the Helsinki conference on a nuclear world. Why on earth would it spend its resources on weapons-free middle east is held. I have repeatedly nuclear weapons, when they could be spent on education, asked the Foreign Secretary—I now ask the Minister, health and welfare? The same applies across the border who is well intentioned on these matters—whether a in Pakistan. Any encouragement to India and Pakistan date has been set for the nuclear weapons-free middle to decommission their weapons and come back into the east conference, which, sadly, did not happen in Helsinki fold of the non-proliferation treaty would be very welcome. when it was supposed to last year. I have attended nuclear non-proliferation treaty review We need to move very urgently on the issue. The crisis conferences and preparatory committees for the past in Syria suggests the need for a political solution there, few years. Often they are dominated by the question of but the election of a new President of Iran is an opportunity, Iran, and whether it has nuclear weapons. Together not a problem. We should see it as an opportunity to with the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay progress this issue very quickly. If western countries (Mr Baron) and two other Members on the all-party that are so ready to give economic aid, arms supplies group on Iran, I attended a meeting with the IAEA in and political support to Israel cannot put pressure on Vienna to discuss that very question, and the obstructions, Israel to attend that conference, that says a great deal or otherwise, that Iran put in the way of inspections. about the permanent five’s rather limited commitment It is clear to me that Iran is developing a nuclear power to a nuclear-free world. system and processing uranium, which it is open about An issue that has recently come up, as it does increasingly, admitting. It absolutely declares that it does not have is North Korea’s development of nuclear weapons. One nuclear weapons, and religious leaders and others in could discuss for a long time why it has developed Iran have said that they have no wish to develop them. I nuclear weapons. Is it because it feels threatened by the know that this is a highly contentious position, but we possibility of American ones being placed in South now have an opportunity, with the new President—President Korea, or is it concerned about seaborne ones being Rouhani—to engage with Iran on this question. used against it by the USA or somebody else? Undeniably, The way forward has to be engagement through a there is a terrible imbalance within North Korea: the nuclear weapons-free middle east, which was in the country can barely feed itself and has many people declaration of the 2010 review conference. A nuclear living in desperate poverty, yet at the same time it weapons-free middle east would of course have to include wastes goodness knows what resources on the development Israel, which is the only country in the region to possess of nuclear weapons and a missile system to go with nuclear weapons—it has 200 warheads—and is not them. signed up to any treaty obligations. The six-party talks made some progress, but then There is, however, a significant nuclear peace campaign completely broke down. More recently, at the end of the in Israel and throughout the middle east, which is latest stand-off, with all the hyperbole from the new supported by the International Campaign to Abolish North Korean leader Kim Jong-un, there has been Nuclear Weapons. I pay tribute to Sharon Dolev and all some clear news. An Associated Press report stated: who have campaigned so vigorously and effectively in “North Korea’s top governing body on Sunday”— Israel to draw attention to the insecurity, not the security, last week— that nuclear weapons offer. “proposed high-level nuclear and security talks with the United At the recent preparatory committee in Geneva, I States in an appeal sent just days after calling off talks with rival listened carefully to the speeches made by delegates South Korea.” from all the Arab League states. The Arab League North Korea’s position appears to be that it wants to obviously has a great interest in the possibility of a talk not just to South Korea, but to the USA. One hopes nuclear weapons-free middle east, and strong statements that such talks can bring about not only a continuation were made by both the Arab League and individual of the ceasefire between North Korea and South Korea, countries, such as Egypt. They bluntly told the permanent but a permanent end to the state of conflict and both five, “If you don’t progress the question of a conference sides’ enormous waste of resources on the development for a nuclear weapons-free middle east, we will either of greater levels of armament to potentially attack each walk out or develop our own nuclear weapons.” The other. There is something very dangerous about that, obvious counter to Israel holding nuclear weapons is but I hope that we seize that opportunity to encourage their development by other states in the region. direct talks with the USA. 323WH Non-Proliferation Treaty20 JUNE 2013 Non-Proliferation Treaty 324WH

President Obama was in Berlin yesterday, on the Jeremy Corbyn: This debate is not about Scottish anniversary of President Kennedy’s speech at the independence; it is about nuclear weapons. Quite clearly, Brandenburg gate. He proposed a further reduction in the positioning of Britain’s nuclear weapons in Scotland nuclear warheads as a way of promoting some degree of makes that issue a factor, and the very broad opposition peace. That has to be welcomed, although so far the throughout Scotland from all parties to nuclear weapons Russian response is a little confused. It is not clear what is significant. Merely moving the weapons to somewhere is being suggested, but it has to be seen as a way else does not make us all safer because they are still in forward. In response, Kate Hudson, general secretary existence and still a threat. I hope to persuade the Minister of CND, said: —I am sure that he is ready to be persuaded—of the “We welcome President Obama’s call for further reductions in need for Britain not to replace its nuclear weapons US and Russian nuclear stockpiles. His proposals, which echo his system and to become part of the nuclear-free world speech against nuclear weapons in Prague in 2009, give voice to that we all aspire to. I can see that the Minister is about the concerns of billions around the world who wish to see a world to jump in and intervene and say that he agrees with me. without these catastrophic weapons… The only way to create [Interruption.] Perhaps he will cover that later in his genuine peace and security for future generations is to follow up reply. these admirable words with concrete actions.” One obviously hopes that that will be the case. I have spoken for nearly 30 minutes, so I will conclude shortly. We are members of the UN Security Council, What can we do in Britain? We are a country of and some people argue that, by maintaining our nuclear 65 million people on the north-west coast of Europe, weapons ability, we guarantee our place at the top table. with challenges on public expenditure and the delivery At some point, there will be changes and reforms to the of public services. We need to invest a large amount in UN. Other countries will become permanent members infrastructure. Therefore, we have to ask ourselves why of the Security Council or the structure will change we spend so much money, resource, time and energy on possibly to include, among others, Brazil, Mexico and maintaining nuclear weapons. India. Our membership is not dependent on having The history of nuclear weapons is that Attlee initially nuclear weapons; it is because of the establishment of envisaged something independent and British, but that the UN at the end of the second world war. later developed into the importing of US weapons such We have a slightly schizophrenic approach towards as Polaris, Cruise and Trident. We are now locked into a nuclear weapons. Some time ago, I went to a Pugwash programme: the initial gate decision has been made to conference, which is a meeting that is held in Canada replace the Trident system and to develop a new submarine most years between peace campaigners, nuclear scientists system at enormous cost, and a main gate decision will and others about the possibility of bringing about a be taken in 2016. nuclear weapons-free world. I was all prepared to give a contribution to the Saturday afternoon session of the Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): No debate conference when I was asked to delay my presentation would really be complete in which I did not intervene by half an hour or so because a video message was on the hon. Gentleman. On the renewal of the submarines, coming from the British Government. The former Defence does he acknowledge that the Trident missiles have Minister Geoff Hoon appeared on the screen above us many years of life left in them? Therefore, the decision and gave a cogent talk about Britain’s commitment to about whether to replace the ageing fleet of Vanguard the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and about how we submarines that carry the Trident missiles could not were detargeting and reducing our warheads. He said possibly contravene the terms of the non-proliferation that we were encouraging a nuclear-free world and treaty. co-operating with Norway on decommissioning, but that Britain was not going to give up its nuclear weapons Jeremy Corbyn: It is quite clear that the massive cost all together. It is time that we accepted the message that involved is largely for the replacement of the submarines. we are part of the NPT and have a contribution to I argue that it is a breach of the treaty to replace make towards nuclear disarmament and did something submarines that will carry nuclear weapons, because about it. We should say that we will not proceed with that is an expansion of the nuclear capability, even if the development of the new submarines, which would the number of warheads carried on each submarine is affect the ability to deliver those weapons. Instead, we reduced as a result. should move to a nuclear weapons-free defence policy, A review is being undertaken within the Government, which would not only save us a great deal of money but following pressure from the Lib Dem part of the coalition. improve our standing in the world. It fought the election on the basis of not having a like-for-like replacement of Trident. Nuclear weapons are not a defence. They did not help the USA on 9/11 or London on 7/7. They do not Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): help anyone very much when the threats around the The hon. Gentleman is making a passionate and cogent world are poverty, environmental change and random case for the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons around acts of violence. Surely nuclear weapons are just weapons the world. Does he agree that if we pursue this multi-billion of mass destruction. One nuclear explosion cannot be pound like-for-like replacement of Trident, the UK will limited, because it never is. It will cause from then on almost commit what can only be described as unilateral environmental destruction and a nuclear winter. nuclear rearmament in the face of every other nation’s Let me conclude with this thought. Those people attempts to disarm on this issue? Does he also agree who argue that we need nuclear weapons and that the that we in Scotland—if we vote yes in the referendum nuclear non-proliferation treaty is for everyone else but next year—can play our part by putting a shot across not for us must answer these questions: would they use the bows of the UK’s nuclear intentions by ensuring them, in what circumstances would they use them and Trident’s removal from Coulport in Scotland? how would they live with the deaths of millions of people? 325WH Non-Proliferation Treaty20 JUNE 2013 Non-Proliferation Treaty 326WH

[Jeremy Corbyn] deter every sort of threat—and it does deter some dangerous threats—there is no more reason to get rid of The weapons are dangerous and redundant and it is it than to get rid of the antidote to a deadly disease just time that we ‘fess up to that and decide to go down the because it could not cure us of other, unrelated diseases. road of disarmament rather than rearmament. The question of nuclear deterrence was substantially worked out before nuclear weapons made their existence Several hon. Members rose— known. In 1944-45, the British chiefs of staff commissioned a study by defence scientists under a famous professor, Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Before I call the next Sir Henry Tizard, to try to imagine what the future speaker, let me say that I intend to bring in the Front-Bench nature of warfare would be once Germany and Japan speakers at no later than 4 pm. were defeated. Tizard was not allowed to go into the question of nuclear weapons, even though he knew that 3.34 pm they were under development, but he could not resist Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I sometimes putting in his report, in 1945, that he and his fellow think that the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy senior defence scientists could see only one answer to Corbyn) and I missed our profession. We have both the atomic bomb, if indeed it was developed. He said: been arguing the merits and demerits of nuclear weapons “A knowledge that we were prepared, in the last resort” and nuclear deterrence—I would like to think passionately to retaliate with such a weapon but also reasonably—for at least the last 30 years. “might well deter an aggressive nation. Duelling was a recognised Perhaps we should cast ourselves as the nuclear version method of settling quarrels between men of high social standing of “Les Misérables”, but which one of us would be the so long as the duellists stood 20 paces apart and ?red at each other fugitive and which one the pursuer is a matter for others with pistols of a primitive type. If the rule had been that they to decide. Certainly, I would like to think that our should stand a yard apart with pistols at each other’s hearts, we relationship is a bit more positive, if adversarial, than doubt whether it would long have remained a recognised method that of Jean Valjean and his nemesis, but the fact is that of settling affairs of honour.” we do disagree, and we represent two diametrically The hon. Member for Islington North said that Nazi opposed schools of thought. I genuinely congratulate scientists played a great part in the subsequent development him on securing this debate. I was away with the Intelligence of nuclear weapons. I do not think that that is quite and Security Committee in the United States when he true. The Nazis went down a blind alley as far as nuclear applied for it. Had I not been, I would have been happy weapons development was concerned. They were subject to support him in applying for it, just as he supported to eavesdropping at Farm hall, where intelligence experts me very fully earlier this year when I applied for the heard them doubting and wondering whether it was debate that we both secured on Trident, which most true that the Americans had successfully developed the people thought was beneficial and extremely valuable, atomic bomb used in Japan. However, he is absolutely whichever side of the debate they happened to support. right that Nazi scientists played a key role in developing the rocketry that could carry such weapons to their Jeremy Corbyn: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that, destination, should they ever be fired. As I like to stress and inform him that I prayed in aid his undoubted wish over and over, that is not what their use consists of, once to have this debate in order to continue our lifelong the stage of stable nuclear deterrence is reached. struggle for nuclear peace. Similarly and interestingly, the hon. Gentleman said, Dr Lewis: I am delighted to hear that, and that is again rightly, that the Cuban missile crisis was probably what I hoped he would do. I will try to follow the chain the most dangerous point in the cold war—the point of the hon. Gentleman’s argument—not too pedantically, when the possibility of a nuclear exchange was at its I hope. I will start where he did, in 1945, because as he highest. The concession that the Americans made was said, that was the one occasion on which nuclear weapons even a little greater than he suggested, because they had were used. However, it all depends on what we mean by nuclear-armed missiles based in Turkey. It was not a the verb “to use”, because although they were used, question of targeting Turkey; the US had missiles based very controversially, to end the war with Japan, I contend in Turkey, which Kennedy wisely decided the US should that they have been used frequently, indeed continuously, offer to remove as a way of giving Khrushchev some ever since. Once we get to the stage of mutual nuclear face-saving ability, so it would not look too much like a deterrence, the use of the nuclear deterrent lies not in straightforward climb-down for him to remove the Soviet firing it, but in possessing it, so that no one else will ever missiles from Cuba. be tempted to do to a country what America was able to Although the hon. Gentleman talked a great deal do to Japan. Whether we regard that as right or wrong about non-proliferation, he did not quote from the in the circumstances is irrelevant. We want to ensure relevant article in the non-proliferation treaty, which is that no one is tempted to do that again in the future. often quoted incompletely. The preamble to the treaty The use of the nuclear deterrent is to deter anyone from states that nuclear disarmament should occur attacking a country with mass destruction weapons. “pursuant to”— Towards the end of the hon. Gentleman’s speech, he that is, in conformity with— said that nuclear weapons were a fat lot of use as far as “a treaty on general and complete disarmament”: 9/11 was concerned. That is an update of an argument that we used to hear in the 1980s, when it was said, in other words, worldwide conventional disarmament. “Well, your nuclear deterrent didn’t stop Argentina Article VI of the non-proliferation treaty states in invading the Falklands, did it?” My answer to the more full: modern version of that has to be the same as my answer “Each of the parties to the treaty undertakes to pursue negotiations to the earlier version: if a weapons system does not in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the 327WH Non-Proliferation Treaty20 JUNE 2013 Non-Proliferation Treaty 328WH nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament, will have a smaller missile compartment, so arguably and on a treaty on general and complete disarmament under they will carry fewer missiles, although I freely acknowledge strict and effective international control.” that the flexibility in the number of warheads that can There are three elements to article VI: the cessation of be put on missiles probably means that it is a distinction the nuclear arms race at an early date, a world free of without a difference—comes anywhere near a breach of nuclear weapons, and a world with general disarmament. the provisions in article VI of the non-proliferation On the first, Britain has never been part of the nuclear treaty, whatever one regards our undertakings as being. arms race. It is true that the superpowers have: they As I said before, the only time frame is ending the piled up nuclear weapons on both sides of the iron arms race “at an early date”. We have never been a part curtain. of the arms race, due to our policy of minimum strategic The one thing on which I always used to agree with nuclear deterrence, and as far as I can see, there is the famous former general secretary of the Campaign nothing in the treaty that says that we must go for a for Nuclear Disarmament, Monsignor Bruce Kent, was nuclear-free world before the world is conventionally his view that the Americans and the Russians could disarmed. In the next and final stage of my remarks, I each unilaterally cut their nuclear arsenals by 10% without will argue that that would be dangerous and destabilising. any loss of security whatsoever. I agreed entirely: both To return to the point about Trident, we continue to sides had massive overkill capability. However, Britain follow a policy with the same weapons system that we never did. For that matter, China never has, and nor has have deployed ever since HMS Vanguard first went to France. We in this country have always followed a policy sea in the 1990s. Whatever other arguments might be of minimum strategic nuclear deterrence. In other words, used to say that Britain ought not to build the new fleet it does not matter if another country has the ability to of successor submarines, contravening the provisions of wipe us out 50 times over, because we can cause the non-proliferation treaty is not one of them. unacceptable levels of devastation in retaliation, which Let me move to the final component of my argument, is why the other country will not do it in the first place. which is whether a nuclear-free world would be desirable, The hon. Gentleman—I nearly called him my hon. or a least a nuclear-free world that was introduced prior Friend, because I regard him as an honourable friend— to general and complete disarmament—conventional asked rhetorically which country had greater moral disarmament—which is referred to in the same clause standing in the world: South Africa, for renouncing its of the NPT that refers to a world free of nuclear programme, or the United Kingdom. I suppose it depends weapons. on one’s standard of morality and how one measures it. If nuclear weapons had not existed, it is unlikely that I would say that it is a little like arguing that the neutral the cold war would have remained stalemated, as it did, countries in 1940—for instance, Holland, Belgium and rather than boiling over into a third global conflict. If Norway—had greater moral standing than democracies nuclear weapons ceased to exist, but the world remained such as Britain and France, which at least tried to have armed to the teeth and still as mutually hostile as it is, armaments with which to defend themselves. However, there would be nothing to prevent the first nation to that is not my standard of morality or my way of cheat on the question of its abolition of nuclear weapons measuring it. My way of measuring it is to ask which from using—that is, firing—secretly manufactured devices country, by adopting a particular policy, will do most to before any such temporary monopoly of them was prevent a nuclear war from breaking out. It was implicit—at broken. one point, it was virtually explicit—in some of the hon. Gentleman’s remarks that he accepts that both of us I particularly draw attention to the example of what share the same end. We do not wish a nuclear war to happened with a treaty that undoubtedly would have happen; we just disagree as much as it is possible to had the support of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament disagree on the means of achieving that laudable end. in 1972, when it was signed: the biological warfare convention. I always remember that brilliant columnist, I will say a few words about Britain and the renewal Bernard Levin, who wrote an article at the time of the of Trident, and about the goal of a world free of biological warfare convention, talking about the fact nuclear weapons, and that will probably be enough. On that the Russians were apparently disposing at sea of all the question of Britain’s renewal of Trident, I underscore sorts of horrible biological weapons, under the terms of what I said in the intervention that the hon. Gentleman the treaty.He said that whatever things they were consigning generously allowed me to make. The Trident missiles to the depths of the ocean, he was pretty sure that that currently constitute the British strategic nuclear biological weapons were not among them. He was dead deterrent are not up for renewal. They have decades of right, because we now know that in 1973, the year after life left in them. The only question is whether we should Russia signed the treaty, the Soviet leadership set up replace the submarines that carry them. Biopreparat—a massive organisation—secretly to continue Of course, one could argue that not replacing the its deadly biological weapons research into such charming submarines would effectively disarm this country of its weapons as smallpox, bubonic plague, anthrax, brucellosis, nuclear deterrent. That is why the hon. Gentleman and tularaemia and Ebola. the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament would like the We know about this because in 1989—I remember submarines not to be replaced. Equally, it is why I am when it happened—a defector from that organisation, determined to do everything that I can to put pressure Vladimir Pasechnik, revealed everything that was going on the Government to ensure that they fulfil their on. We were able to get away with that cheating, because promise to replace them. However, I do not think that it we had the ultimate fall-back of a nuclear deterrent is credibly arguable, by any stretch of the imagination, system, which meant that it would have been just as that replacing four submarines that are reaching the end dangerous for Russia to have exploited its secret monopoly of their design life with three or four new submarines to of biological weapons, which it kept while everybody carry the same missiles—indeed, the new submarines else kept to the terms of the treaty and disarmed. We 329WH Non-Proliferation Treaty20 JUNE 2013 Non-Proliferation Treaty 330WH

[Dr Julian Lewis] will be used, either by accident or design. I am interested in hearing a great deal more than we have heard up till would have been able to retaliate against those weapons now from the Government about what energy, resources with our nuclear deterrent, but heaven help us if we had and commitment they are putting into this process. not the nuclear deterrent as a back-up. I should also be interested to have a more detailed The question that people who advocate a nuclear-free explanation of what the Government’s position is in world have to ask themselves is this: is it a sensible policy, relation to some other initiatives taking place in the in the real world as we know it today, to make the world world by other states that do not possess nuclear weapons, safe once again for conventional warfare between the or perhaps previously possessed nuclear weapons but great powers? I would love to see a nuclear-free world, no longer do, and that seem to be putting a great deal of but I would love to see it only when I see a weapons-free diplomatic and political energy into trying to move world; for that to happen, there has to be a world towards a situation where fewer states possess nuclear Government and, above all, a reformation of the mind weapons. of man and a change for the better in human nature. In particular, for example, I should be interested to hear from the Minister the detail of the Government’s 3.53 pm position in relation to the humanitarian initiative undertaken by a number of non-nuclear weapons states. The Minister Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): I am will be aware of the conference that took place in Oslo grateful for the opportunity to make a short contribution earlier this year. He has had to address many parliamentary to this debate, Mr Sheridan, and I am pleased to see you questions, including some asked by me and by my hon. in the Chair today. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Friend the Member for Islington North, asking why Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) both on Britain did not attend and engage in that event. The securing this debate and on his comprehensive, articulate Minister will be aware that that initiative explored issues opening contribution. to do with how we stop nuclear weapons proliferating I should like to ask the Government for more information and stop the political situation in which states can about how they intend to deal with this issue. Many justify acquiring and developing nuclear weapons, by such debates take place in the context of the renewal of using the same arguments that we use in this country. the Trident nuclear weapons system, about which we I should like the Minister and the Government to say have heard many references. Strong arguments are made what they intend to do now to put this issue at the top by those who believe that we should not renew Trident of the political agenda. He will appreciate that the and by those, such as the hon. Member for New Forest possession of nuclear weapons by any country and the East (Dr Lewis), who believe that renewing it would be development of this technology means that it is more the right step for Britain to take. I would find it difficult likely that these weapons of mass destruction will be to justify the cost of more than £100 billion being used. As we lead towards our upcoming discussions on spent—we believe that would be the cost during the whether to renew Trident, Britain should be actively lifetime of a replacement for Trident—in the context of engaged in that process and, indeed, be a leader of the some of the cuts in the public sector and in public move towards a nuclear-free world. spending at this time, the cost of which we know is bearing down on many people throughout the country. 4pm I should be interested in hearing the Minister provide a more detailed explanation of the position that Britain Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): As always, it is is taking internationally. I do not agree with the hon. a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan. Member for New Forest East that it would be wrong to I have listened with great interest to what has been, get rid of nuclear weapons before getting rid of all perhaps inevitably, a somewhat polarised debate. It is weapons in this world. The position of some states on fair to say that hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber nuclear weapons makes it more likely that other states —my hon. Friends the Members for Islington North will acquire them. One of my great concerns is proliferation, (Jeremy Corbyn) and for North Ayrshire and Arran particularly with the kind of people running some (Katy Clark) and the hon. Member for New Forest East regimes in the world at the moment. Of course, there is (Dr Lewis)—although they reach very different conclusions much debate about Syria. Previously, there was much about the approach to nuclear weapons, approach the debate about Libya and Iraq. We have had debates and issue from a position of great integrity and with a real there has been discussion this week about the regime in desire to ensure that we never revisit the horrors of the Iran. The reality is that many of those regimes, at only use to date of nuclear weapons in conflict, the various points, may have had the capacity to develop bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the end of the and possess nuclear weapons. second world war. It is beholden on the United Kingdom Government, I have great respect for the views expressed by everyone as one of the five countries that are signatories to the who has spoken in the debate. I do not share the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and one of the countries pessimism of the hon. Gentleman’s closing remarks. I that it is recognised as possessing nuclear weapons, to was with him for quite a bit of his speech, up until he put a great deal of energy, expertise and political said that we will never see an end to nuclear weapons commitment into the process, to try to rid the world of unless we see an end to conventional weapons and a nuclear weapons and take steps to ensure that, until we world Government. Perhaps taking the opposing view—that get to the point where there are no nuclear weapons, as we will achieve a world without nuclear weapons—is few nuclear weapons exist in as few hands as possible. idealistic, but I think it is important that we have that in The more nuclear weapons that we have and the more mind as an end goal. After all, each of the parties to the countries that possess them, the more likely it is that they nuclear non-proliferation treaty—he cited article 6—has 331WH Non-Proliferation Treaty20 JUNE 2013 Non-Proliferation Treaty 332WH undertaken to pursue in good faith negotiations on the from 2003 to 2005. It is fair to say that he did not cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and demonstrate any great enthusiasm for transparency on to achieve nuclear disarmament. Having signed up to Iran’s nuclear capability when he was in those positions. the treaty, we have committed ourselves to making progress On North Korea, there has been a ratcheting of on that front, even if we think that the end result will be tensions in the past year or so, with the launch of two a long way off; it comes down to the speed and passion rockets carrying satellites in 2012, which was widely with which we pursue those negotiations. seen as an attempt to test its missile technology. The The official Opposition believe that the UK must launch was met with global condemnation, including continue to press for multilateral negotiations towards from North Korea’s closest ally, China. The UN Secretary- mutual, balanced and verifiable reductions in nuclear General condemned the launch as a violation of United weapons and to work towards total elimination of our Nations Security Council resolution 1874. nuclear arsenal and all others. Those efforts must include In February 2013, North Korea conducted its third working with the International Atomic Energy Agency nuclear test in seven years, and there has been rhetoric to develop assurances of supply for nuclear fuel that from Kim Jong-un about a pre-emptive nuclear strike provide energy security without the need for proliferation against the USA and threats against South Korea. I was of sensitive enrichment technology. I do not intend to in South Korea for a UK-Korea Forum for the Future talk about nuclear power—it has been discussed in conference last week, and one of the key messages that previous debates in Parliament—but it is part of the issue. we gave to our Korean hosts was on our admiration for their calm response to those threats. Obviously, South When the Labour party was in government, we Korea is used to such threats, as there has been conflict committed to reduce the number of operationally available between the two countries for many years, but its response warheads to fewer than 160, so the UK has now reduced helped to dampen the tension in the area. its nuclear arsenal by 75% since the end of the cold war, and we welcome the Government’s announcements on I would be grateful to the Minister if he updated us reducing both operationally available warheads and the on his assessment of the situation. The North Koreans overall weapons stockpile. The UK now accounts for pulled out of the talks that were due to take place on the less than 1% of the global stockpile of nuclear weapons. grounds that the South Koreans were not sending We have the smallest arsenal of the five recognised sufficiently senior people. That seems to be an issue that nuclear weapons states, and we are the only state to could quite easily be resolved. What conversations, if reduce to a single nuclear deterrent system. any, has he had to try to ensure that those talks go ahead? On Trident and the need for an independent nuclear The security of existing stockpiles in countries such deterrent, Labour’s continuing objective is to play an as Pakistan and Russia remains an ongoing concern. active and constructive role in an international effort to The IAEA has reported more than 100 nuclear smuggling achieve a world free from nuclear weapons. Any future incidents since 1993, 18 of which involved highly enriched Labour policy will seek to take disarmament further by uranium, which is the most dangerous product on the reducing the number of deployable and stockpiled nuclear black market. Does the Minister have anything warheads, but Britain’s independent nuclear deterrent to say on how we are trying to address such smuggling has been the cornerstone of our peace and security for incidents? more than half a century. In today’s world, so long as there are other countries with such capabilities and the I was interested in what my hon. Friend the Member security landscape is characterised by instability and for Islington North had to say about the middle east uncertainty—we have heard about the situation in Pakistan, nuclear-free zone, for which he has been campaigning North Korea’s missile tests and the unpredictable situation for some time. He tabled an early-day motion on that in in Iran, despite the election this week of a new President—it 2010. I understand that the hopes of having a conference is right that the UK retains an independent nuclear this year have been somewhat derailed by the situation deterrent. However, we want the UK to have the minimum in Syria. Will the Minister comment on whether we can credible deterrent, in line with our international obligations push for that conference to take place? and strategic security requirements, and we want to The Minister attended the NPT review conference at ensure that we achieve maximum value for money within the UN last year, and it was reported that a five-year that chosen platform. action plan spanning the three pillars of the NPT was agreed by consensus. The next NPT review conference I will address some of the countries of concern that will be in 2015. What progress have the Government pose a possible nuclear threat. In the past year, international made on drawing up their objectives? What do they talks on Iran’s nuclear programme have achieved little, hope to achieve at that conference? resulting in harsher sanctions. On Monday, the head of the IAEA reported that sanctions have not been successful The Trident alternatives review is set to publish its in slowing Iran’s ability to enrich uranium. We welcome report before July, and the Government will have an the commitment of Iran’s new President, Hassan Rouhani, opportunity to assess whether to cut the number of to greater nuclear transparency, of course, but those Vanguard submarines from four to two. Late last month, words must be backed up with progress on the ground. the Financial Times reported that the review will conclude that any alternative to Trident will either be impractical The Russian Foreign Minister has reported in the or more expensive. I assume that the Minister will want past few days that Iran is prepared to suspend the most to wait until the review is published before commenting sensitive parts of its nuclear programme, which could in detail, but I would be interested if he could answer a be welcome news, but we must be cautious. The new few questions. How much time and money is being President was head of Iran’s national security council spent by the MOD on the review? Will it be published as for 16 years, and he was Tehran’s key nuclear negotiator a Government document or, as it was inspired by Liberal 333WH Non-Proliferation Treaty20 JUNE 2013 Non-Proliferation Treaty 334WH

[Kerry McCarthy] hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), who echoed the position of successive Labour Governments Democrat members of the coalition, will it be published and reiterated the 2007 commitment, made under a under their auspices? What consideration will be given Labour Government, to proceed with Trident. In general, to the review before the finalisation of the Conservative I accept that she has restated a relatively common party manifesto? position. The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Finally, I want to mention Government efforts to Arran (Katy Clark) made a strong contribution on the reduce their own nuclear stockpile. In 2010, the Secretary side of those who challenge such an opinion, but, again, of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs informed in a moderate way and recognising the responsibilities Parliament that the UK had 225 nuclear warheads; he of the United Kingdom not only to its own defence, but also signalled that the coalition would downgrade their to the mutual defence with which it is associated through importance in UK military strategy. What efforts are its various treaty obligations. being made on that front? In the time allotted, I will do my best to do justice to the contributions. I am not sure, however, which part in 4.10 pm “Les Mis” we would all take. “Who am I?” Well, I am the Minister responsible for counter-proliferation, but The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign at least I am not “On my own”, and I am grateful for and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): I echo the the support I have had from colleagues in putting remarks of hon. Members: it is a pleasure to serve together these remarks. Enough of this. under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan. The United Kingdom is a firm supporter of the If anyone wanted to listen to as good and clear an non-proliferation treaty, which we believe is the cornerstone exposition as possible of whether the United Kingdom of the international non-proliferation regime. Of course, should have nuclear weapons, they could do a lot worse the NPT faces challenges and pressures, such as the than listen to the hon. Member for Islington North nuclear ambitions of North Korea and Iran, the risk of (Jeremy Corbyn) and my hon. Friend the Member for a nuclear terrorist attack and the spread of sensitive New Forest East (Dr Lewis). It is clear to all of us in the nuclear technology. We must also remember, however, House, having known them for a long time, that not that the consensus outcome of 2010 NPT review conference, only do they know what they are talking about, but they with agreement of the cross-pillar action plan by 189 continue to conduct the debate on a serious issue in state parties of the NPT, was a real achievement and a exactly the sort of terms that we would want for an boost for multilateralism. We are now halfway through argument of such seriousness. As the years ebb and the five-year review cycle. Looking ahead to the review flow, it remains uncertain which argument will dominate conference in 2015, we need to ensure that we deliver at any particular stage in British politics and the like. against our action plan commitments. That the reasons for and against are put so clearly is of benefit to all of us in the House, so I very much In response to the question of the hon. Member for appreciate the hon. Member for Islington North calling Bristol East, we in the Government take our action plan for the debate, and the way in which he led it, as well as obligations seriously, on all three pillars of the NPT, the way in which all other colleagues who have spoken which are nuclear disarmament, non-proliferation and contributed. peaceful uses, and our role as co-convenor for the conference on the establishment of a weapons of mass As always, we need to go a little way down memory destruction-free zone in the middle east. I will say a lane. The first time that the hon. Member for Islington little more about each of those. North and I debated the subject was when we were both councillors on Haringey council in 1981; he was either On disarmament, under the first pillar of the NPT, proposing or part of a movement to declare the borough the United Kingdom is committed to the long-term a nuclear-free zone. Probably the first time that I came goal of a world without nuclear weapons. Successive across my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East UK Governments—the hon. Lady can take pride in her was when he was campaigning with Tony Kerpel and party’s achievements—have played an active role in others in the anti-CND movement about the same time. helping to build an international environment in which Both have proved their point: Haringey has, mercifully, no state feels the need to possess nuclear weapons. I been free of attack since the council declared it a take the opportunity to highlight the UK’s strong record nuclear-free zone— on disarmament. In our 2010 strategic defence and security review, we announced reductions in the number of operational warheads and our overall stockpile. I Jeremy Corbyn: I made my case. remember making some of those announcements in New York at the time of the 2010 conference. We Alistair Burt: Absolutely. To that extent, the hon. announced, for the first time, the total size of our Gentleman was absolutely right in how he conducted nuclear warhead stockpile, and gave a new, stronger the case. security assurance that the UK would not use or threaten The world has of course benefited from the case put to use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear weapon forward so ably by my hon. Friend the Member for New states party to the NPT. Those announcements meant Forest East. It is a case with which I am broadly in that the UK has been more transparent than ever about agreement: our possession of nuclear weapons has our arsenal in a declaratory policy that we believe will contributed to the peace of the world, provided it has assist in building trust between nuclear and non-nuclear been allied to a commitment, demonstrated by successive weapon states, and contribute to efforts to reduce the Governments, to rid the world steadily of nuclear weapons number of nuclear weapons worldwide. We continue to through measures of mutual confidence. I appreciate call on other nuclear weapon states to take reciprocal the restatement of the Opposition position by the steps. 335WH Non-Proliferation Treaty20 JUNE 2013 Non-Proliferation Treaty 336WH

In essence, as we all know, the NPT is a grand bargain with a focus on the humanitarian impact of nuclear between nuclear and non-nuclear weapon states. It is weapons. We have made no decision on whether to essential, and at the heart of our disagreements with attend that conference, but we will continue to engage Iran in particular, but not only Iran, that both sides with Mexican officials on the shape of it. keep that bargain, otherwise mutual confidence is not I want to speak about some of the states mentioned there. If we do keep the bargain, we can make progress by colleagues during the debate. On the second pillar of towards the world we want to see. China’s involvement the NPT, Iran and North Korea pose the most immediate in the P5 process—in particular, its leadership of the challenges to the non-proliferation regime. The actions P5 working group on nuclear terminology—is a positive of both countries must not be allowed to threaten indication of China’s interest in engaging in efforts to international peace and security. The UK remains deeply help enhance understanding on nuclear matters. That concerned about Iran’s continuing nuclear activities in and Russia’s involvement in the P5 plus 1 talks with violation of multiple UN Security Council resolutions Iran indicate that, despite difficulties and disagreements and in defiance of the resolutions of the board of in some areas, the consensus on nuclear issues and governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency. nuclear disarmament is quite strong under the overall Iran’s nuclear programme has no credible civilian NPT umbrella. explanation, and we believe that it wants a nuclear Katy Clark: The Minister is talking about non-nuclear weapons capability. Those aspirations are incompatible states and the work of nuclear states. He is aware of the with Iran’s obligation under the NPT. A nuclear-armed Oslo conference and humanitarian initiative, and of the Iran would bring the risk of a nuclear arms race and New Agenda Coalition disarmament statement; will he further conflict throughout the region. The NPT could have the opportunity to outline the Government’s approach unravel and the dangers facing us and other countries to such initiatives from non-nuclear states to encourage would multiply. We want a peaceful, diplomatic solution nuclear disarmament? to the nuclear issue. We urge Iran to engage constructively on the basis of the confidence-building proposal presented Alistair Burt: I will indeed; I will come to that in by the E3 plus 3, and to take the concrete steps that a moment. Our groundbreaking work with Norway, a would pave the way for negotiations on a comprehensive non-nuclear state, on the verification of warhead settlement. dismantlement has been the first time that a nuclear As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said, weapon state has engaged in such an open way with a clearly the election of Iran’s new President has the non-nuclear weapon state on such a sensitive issue. I possibility of introducing a new element into a complex hope that we have also been active in building the equation. If that were the case, there would be warm a conditions for further progress on disarmament. The welcome from the United Kingdom, but the evidence United Kingdom instigated the P5 dialogue between suggests that it is sensible to wait and see what such an nuclear weapon states in 2009 to help build the trust approach might be. The hon. Member for Bristol East and mutual confidence to take forward further progress. was able to give some background on President-elect The hon. Lady is right that as part of the action Rouhani that indicates that his position may not be the plan—though it was not a commitment—there was easiest, but it is still early days, and any opportunity will much discussion about the humanitarian impact of be warmly welcomed. The security and peace of many nuclear weapons and, therefore, the Oslo conference. people is dependent on Iran recognising its obligations Of course we recognise that any use of nuclear weapons under the NPT and satisfying the concerns of the would have grave humanitarian consequences—it is international community. If those steps can be taken, unthinkable. The best way to prevent such an event is to there may be an opportunity to de-escalate. No one and make progress on multilateral disarmament, on counter- no state would welcome that more than the United proliferation and on improving the security of non-nuclear Kingdom. materials and facilities. Our decision not to attend the Oslo conference on humanitarian consequences does Jeremy Corbyn: The Minister is being generous in not change any of those commitments to the goal of a giving way again. Could we not use the opportunity of world without nuclear weapons. We believe, however, new President Rouhani’s election to open some sort of that the energy behind the humanitarian campaign dialogue with Iran? I do not want Iran to have nuclear could have been more effectively channelled through weapons any more than anyone else, but does the Minister existing processes, by helping to tackle blockages, and realise that the alarm bell of Egypt leaving the NPT by making progress in the practical step-by-step approach process is very serious for the whole region? Urgency is that includes all states that possess nuclear weapons. required to kick-start the nuclear weapons-free middle Only in that way can we realistically achieve a world east conference that, sadly, was not held in Helsinki last without nuclear weapons. That is the reason why we year. and the other P5 members chose not to attend. Alistair Burt: Before turning to the weapons of mass Jeremy Corbyn: It is true that the P5 did not attend, destruction-free zone in the middle east, I want to pick but will the Minister give us some indication of the up the hon. Gentleman’s point. The opportunity for attitude to the invitation that I understand has been dialogue is genuinely there. The House knows that extended to attend the Mexico resumption of the conference relations between Iran and the United Kingdom have in the early part of next year? been reduced to the lowest level, but they are not absolutely nil. Everyone knows about the talks that are Alistair Burt: The hon. Gentleman is right. Officials proceeding on the nuclear issue, so the opportunity for from our embassy in Mexico City held a meeting with dialogue exists. I do not believe that anyone in Tehran Mexican officials on 31 May. We were informed that believes that they would not have the opportunity of they do indeed intend to hold a conference in early 2014 putting something new into the mixture if they wanted 337WH Non-Proliferation Treaty20 JUNE 2013 Non-Proliferation Treaty 338WH

[Alistair Burt] continues to talk to all, which is important. That is our position and we continue to try to drive that process on. to, in relation to the President’s position, when it becomes The fact that Israel and Iran are part of it is one established, so we will wait and see. I want to make it encouragement in a difficult area. clear that our side would welcome movement, but equally Hon. Members would be disappointed if I did not let me say, in response to the concerns of those whose touch briefly on the deterrent and Trident. Our position responsibilities we share, that there has to be evidence. remains that maintaining the UK’s nuclear deterrent However, the opportunity will be there. beyond the life of the current system is fully consistent I will speak briefly about North Korea before turning with our obligations as a recognised nuclear weapon to the weapons of mass destruction free-zone in the state under the NPT. It does not require unilateral middle east. The United Kingdom condemns in the disarmament, nor does it prohibit the maintenance of a strongest possible terms North Korea’s continued nuclear weapons systems currently held by any nuclear development of its nuclear weapons programme, which weapon state. The UK has an excellent record in fulfilling is in direct violation of UN Security Council resolutions. its disarmament obligations under the NPT, maintains We continue to urge North Korea to return to credible only a minimum nuclear deterrent and, we believe, is the and authentic international negotiations, to abide by its most forward-leaning of the five nuclear weapon states. obligations under relevant UN Security Council resolutions In that context, I reaffirm the United Kingdom’s position and to abandon all nuclear weapons programmes in a on the deterrent. complete, verifiable and irreversible manner. My party’s position on Trident remains that which To what extent the regime plays games with the was approved by Parliament in 2007. The Government international community and its neighbours is almost are committed to maintaining the UK’s continuous impossible to tell. The hon. Member for Bristol East strategic nuclear deterrent, and renewing it through the rightly asked about the prospects for new talks. We submarine replacement programme. A decision on the welcomed the news last week that North and South number of submarines to be procured will be taken in Korea were considering talks on the future of the 2016. industrial complex and other issues. Although it has not In May 2011, the then Secretary of State for Defence, proved possible to hold talks this week, we continue to my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset hope that both sides will remain open to future dialogue. (Dr Fox), announced initiation of the review of the It is certainly something we encourage as best we can. costs, feasibility and credibility of alternative systems Turning to the weapons of mass destruction-free and postures for maintaining a minimum credible nuclear zone in the middle east, I want to put on record again deterrent. The purpose of the review is to help to fulfil my strong commitment to it. I have met facilitator the coalition Government’s programme, which states: Jaakko Laajava on several occasions. I like him, and he “we will maintain Britain’s nuclear deterrent, and have agreed works incredibly hard on one of the most unforgiving that the renewal of Trident should be scrutinised to ensure value briefs in the middle east, of which there a few. He has for money. The Liberal Democrats will continue to make the case worked tirelessly to try to bring nations together. As a for alternatives”. co-convenor of the conference, we support it and we The Government are fulfilling that pledge and that want it to happen. I would like an indicative date, and I promise. Already, significant costs have been identified back Jaakko Laajava’s attempts to try to create that. as being able to be taken out of the Trident programme, His method has been to try to bring the parties together giving rise to £3.2 billion of savings and deferrals over conditionally to discuss where it might go, but that has the next 10 years. It is important that it is cost-effective. not suited Egypt and other Arab states that have made We will deal with the alternatives when that comes their concerns very clear because they were disappointed through, but for maintenance of the Government’s that the conference did not happen last year. So were consistent position at the moment, the deterrent remains we, but patient building together will be required to get in place. Our commitment to a cost-effective Trident there. also remains in place, and we will await the alternatives, We would very much appreciate the re-engagement of when they come up. Egypt and all other Arab states, and I regularly raise I suspect that the debate will continue, and the fact that in my bilateral conversations. Proceeding with this that it will be continued in good heart between is part of the bargain that I mentioned earlier; it was knowledgeable colleagues on the Back Benches helps part of the bargain that achieved the statement in 2010. those on both Front Benches. Those who are committed to this can be assured that the United Kingdom will make all efforts, but ultimately it will depend on confidence all round, and will include 4.30 pm the United States, Israel and the Iranians. It is interesting Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order that they are all in the process, and the facilitator No. 10(11)). 35WS Written Statements20 JUNE 2013 Written Statements 36WS

Audiovisual (AV)services are excluded from the mandate Written Statements for now, but the Commission retains the right to discuss AV with the US and to return to the Council for a Thursday 20 June 2013 revised mandate if inclusion of AV would improve the deal. ATTORNEY-GENERAL On Canada, the Commission (de Gucht) provided a brief update over lunch on these negotiations. A low-key update, with some limited progress noted on minor Social Media Prosecution Guidelines issues, but little movement on the three major outstanding issues: agricultural markets access; rail procurement; The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): The Director and financial services. of Public Prosecutions has today published his final Trade relationship with China guidelines for prosecuting cases involving communications The EU’s relationship with China was discussed over sent via social media. This follows an earlier public lunch. Discussion was dominated by the high-profile consultation exercise on the interim guidelines, details trade defence cases (solar panels and telecoms). The of which were announced in my written statement to Commission was criticised for its handling of the cases. the House on the 19 December 2012, Official Report, I and some others stressed the importance of maintaining column 101WS. a positive strategic partnership with China. The final guidelines take account of comments received AOB: Bangladesh textiles factory collapse in the consultation and the experience of recent prosecutions. They have been amended to clarify additional Under AOB, France and the Netherlands introduced evidential and public interest considerations relevant a joint paper on strengthening the sustainable development when prosecutors assess whether a prosecution is required elements in FTAs and promoting EU action to improve in accordance with the code for Crown prosecutors. labour standards in the garment industry. Denmark expressed support. The Commission (de Gucht) outlined The overall approach of the guidelines remains the its planned activities. The presidency undertook to make same, making a clear distinction between communications a public statement following the Council. which amount to credible threats of violence, a targeted campaign of harassment or breach of court orders on WTO ninth ministerial the one hand, and other communications—for example, There was not time for this agenda item. grossly offensive communications—on the other. The first group will be prosecuted robustly. Whereas cases in the second group, which meet the evidential stage, are unlikely to require a prosecution in the public interest if TREASURY the sender expresses genuine remorse, the communication is swiftly removed, it is not intended for a wide audience ECOFIN or does not obviously go beyond what could conceivably be acceptable in a diverse society which upholds and respects freedom of expression. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Greg Clark): Copies of the final guidelines have been placed in the A meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council Libraries of both Houses. will be held in Luxembourg on 21 June 2013. The following items are on the agenda to be discussed. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Contribution to the European Council meeting on 27-28 June 2013—European semester 2013 Trade Foreign Affairs Council Council will consider the fiscal and economic elements of the country specific recommendations (CSRs) for member states. The UK’s CSRs are broadly in line with The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and domestic reform priorities. The Council recommendations Skills (Vince Cable): The EU Foreign Affairs Council are non-binding and there are no sanctions for non- (Trade) took place in Luxembourg on 14 June 2013. compliance. I and Sir John Cunliffe represented the UK on all the Implementation of the stability and growth pact issues discussed at the meeting. A summary of those Council will discuss the implementation of the discussions follows. Commission’s recommendations related to the excessive One legislative item was discussed: the Commission’s deficit procedure (EDP) for a number of member states. two trade omnibus proposals which bring common commercial (trade) policy regulation into line with post- Commission/European Investment Bank (EIB) report to Lisbon decision-making arrangements. Council noted the European Council the political agreement reached in trilogue on the trade Following the March European Council, the Commission, omnibus proposals and congratulated the presidency together with the European Investment Bank, are expected on this significant achievement. The Commission (de Gucht) to report to the June European Council on the implementation welcomed the milestone, after a protracted negotiation of the ElB’s capital increase. The Commission/EIB will between the institutions. present their initial findings to Council. Free trade agreements Financial assistance to Ireland and Portugal The negotiating mandate for the transatlantic trade Council will consider two Council implementing decisions and investment partnership (TTIP) was agreed, authorising amending previous implementing decisions on granting the Commission to enter into trade talks with the US. Union financial assistance to Ireland and Portugal. 37WS Written Statements20 JUNE 2013 Written Statements 38WS

ECB/Commission convergence reports and enlargement and a second to support delivery of additional affordable of the euro area homes. The Government will guarantee up to £10 billion The euro area member states will make a of housing providers’ debt through the two schemes. recommendation to the Council on Latvia’s euro adoption. I can announce today that the housing guarantees are The UK does not have a vote on the decision by EU open for business. We have awarded the licence to member states to adopt the euro. ECOFIN will also provide the affordable housing guarantees scheme to prepare a letter for the President of the Council to send Affordable Housing Finance plc, a subsidiary of the to the European Council summarising discussions. Housing Finance Corporation Ltd. Their bid provided Development of policy options in the climate/energy field— very good value for money, and I am looking forward to follow up to the May European Council working with them to deliver the scheme. Affordable At the request of Poland, Council will hold a state of Housing Finance are now able to receive applications play discussion on this item. and we expect the first applications to be approved this summer, subject to due diligence. Code of conduct (business taxation) Today, I have laid before the house a minute setting As with each presidency, the Council will be asked to out details of the contingent liability created by the endorse conclusions accompanying the code of conduct affordable housing guarantees schemes. Under the group report on progress made under the Irish presidency. affordable housing guarantees scheme, the Department ECOFIN report to the European Council on tax issues for Communities and Local Government will guarantee This is the six-monthly report which ECOFIN forwards up to £3.5 billion of debt on terms of up to 30 years for on to the European Council, summarising the progress private registered providers who commit to building made under each presidency on tax issues. new affordable housing. Report by Finance Ministers on tax issues in the framework We are also now able to consider direct applications of the euro plus pact for the private rented sector guarantees scheme. The This is the six-monthly report which summarises response to our invitation to tender for delivery of the progress made under each presidency on tax issues in scheme indicated a demand from larger investors for relation to framework of the euro plus pact. individual direct debt guarantees and that Government Proposal for a Council directive amending directive 2011/16/U should take the first steps in developing this new market. as regards mandatory automatic exchange of information We are in conversation with the sector and committed in the field of taxation to exploring all of the market-led options, which will The Commission will present a proposal on amending lead to guarantees becoming available as soon as possible. the existing administrative co-operation directive. The We will look to offer direct guarantees on money raised UK will look to ensure that any amendments do not in the bond market by housing providers investing in conflict with or undermine the embedding of a new large-scale and purpose-built private rented sector projects. global standard in the automatic exchange of tax The Government’s scheme rules for the guarantees are information. unchanged. Some potential borrowers are already discussing Banking recovery and resolution directive applications with my officials and others are invited to do the same. A formal application process will open The presidency will seek a general approach on the shortly. banking recovery and resolution directive (BRRD). The UK supports the concept of a strong framework in Europe for bank recovery and resolution and broadly DEFENCE welcomed the Commission’s proposal. It will be important that any agreement on the BRRD delivers a credible Reserves (Call-out Order) and useable bail-in tool. Domestically, the UK has already taken tough action to reform the banking sector. This includes implementing a new resolution regime, The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan): the largest bank levy in Europe and structural reforms With the expiry of the call-out order made on 29 June to the banking sector (for example, the Vickers ring-fencing). 2012, a new order has been made under section 56(l)(a) Any other business of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 to enable reservists to The presidency intends to give a state of play update on continue to be called out into permanent service as part the deposit guarantee schemes directive. of the United Kingdom’s contribution to the United Nations Forces in Cyprus (UNFICYP). Some 133 reservists are currently called out in support of UNFICYP. All COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT are serving in Cyprus.

Rented Sector Guarantees HOME DEPARTMENT

European Arrest Warrant The Minister for Housing (Mr Mark Prisk): The rented sector has become increasingly important in meeting people’s housing needs over the last decade. On 6 September The Secretary of State for the Home Department 2012, the Government announced the housing guarantees (Mrs Theresa May): On 16 April 2013, I informed the schemes as part of a package of measures to expand the House that the Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) provision of rented housing and boost economic growth. had identified an error in the way in which they had The Government are setting up two guarantees schemes: captured and reported the number of outgoing (part 3) one to support the delivery of large-scale professionally European arrest warrants (EAWs) that have been issued managed purpose-built accommodation for private rent since 2009-10. As I set out in April, I take this matter 39WS Written Statements20 JUNE 2013 Written Statements 40WS extremely seriously, and undertook to establish whether Part 1 (Incoming EAWs) any adverse consequential issues may have arisen, as Previous well as ensure that any inaccurate data that may have Year Type Figure New Figure been provided to Parliament are corrected. Accordingly, I asked HM chief inspector of constabulary (HMCIC), 2009-10 Arrests 1,032 1,057 in collaboration with SOCA, to audit SOCA’s systems Surrenders 699 772 for collecting data on EAWs; to validate the EAW 2010-11 Arrests 1,359 1,295 figures; to ensure that the error identified in collecting Surrenders 1,173 1,100 data had no detrimental impact on public protection; 2011-12 Arrests 1,149 1,394 and to provide assurances that SOCA’s new case information Surrenders 922 1.076 management system (CIMS) will provide accurate data in future. This audit is now complete and I would like to thank HMCIC for the work his inspectorate have done to JUSTICE produce their report so promptly, copies of which are in the House Library. The report found that; a) the audit SOCA undertook to verify the data was robust, and the Guardianship of Property and Affairs of Missing part 1 audit would result in the identification of more Persons arrests and surrenders than previously promulgated; b) there was no evidence of systemic weaknesses that would adversely affect public protection; and c) CIMS The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice would help SOCA record more accurate data in future. (Mrs Helen Grant): The Government stated in their The report also made a number of recommendations response to the 12th report of the Justice Committee in about work going forward, including: extending the the 2010-12 Session on presumption of death (Cm auditing process to compare SOCA’s EAW data with 8377, published July 2012) that the Ministry of Justice information held on the police national computer; to would discuss with the Law Commission whether it give consideration to a focused campaign to find and could take on a project on the need for legislation to arrest fugitives hiding in the UK; and to review the create a status of guardian for the affairs of a missing progress of all other changes to SOCA’s EAW process person within England and Wales. (including the implementation of CIMS) before the end These discussions have now concluded. The Law of 2013. SOCA has accepted all these recommendations. Commission was keen to take on the project, and was My officials will work with SOCA and, going forward, willing to adjust its planned programme of family law the National Crime Agency, to ensure that these work to enable it to do so. However, because of the recommendations are fully implemented. negative impact on other important reform projects that this would have involved, the Ministry of Justice SOCA has now provided revised data relating to has decided not to ask the Commission to disrupt its incoming (part 1) and outgoing (part 3) EAWs. A programme and, instead, will take forward the project high-level summary of the data is attached to this within the Department. statement. The revised data will also be published on I am therefore pleased to announce that the Department both the Home Office and SOCA websites. intends to publish a consultation paper on this subject This information should be seen as superseding any later this year with a view to taking a final decision in figures on EAW numbers which had previously been 2014 on whether a status of guardian should be created. provided to Parliament in response to parliamentary In preparing the consultation paper the Department questions asked on this issue since 2009-10, as well as in will be assisted by the charity Missing People, and its response to enquiries and reports from parliamentary legal advisers, the pro bono section of Clifford Chance committees. LLP.The Department is very grateful to Missing People Summary of corrected EAW figures and Clifford Chance for their assistance and to the Law Commission for its engagement with Government on The following tables refer to revised figures as issued this matter. by SOCA. A complete breakdown of the corrected The Department will also engage with organisations figures can be found on the Home Office and SOCA representing business interests in preparing the consultation websites: paper. http://www.soca.gov.uk/. http://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office. Presumption of Death Act 2013 Part 3 (Outgoing EAWs) Previous Year Type Figure New Figure The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mrs Helen Grant): The Presumption of Death Act 2013 2009-10 Arrests 99 142 received Royal Assent on 26 March 2013. Sections 9 Surrenders 71 110 and 15(4) of and schedule 1 to the Act (so far as they 2010-11 Arrests 145 150 confer a power to make rules or regulations) and sections 17 Surrenders 134 130 to 24 (inclusive) came into force on that date. The 2011-12 Arrests 93 148 remainder of the Act will be brought into force by order Surrenders 86 144 made by statutory instrument on a date to be appointed by the Secretary of State. 41WS Written Statements20 JUNE 2013 Written Statements 42WS

The Ministry of Justice and the General Register The estimate as modified by the Committee was laid Office are working to create the necessary rules of court on Wednesday 19 June (HC 396). The statutory report and registration regulations and the associated procedures. detailing the Committee’s reasons for modifying the It is expected that this work will be completed in time structure of the estimate. Statement under schedule 1 of for the remaining provisions of the Act to be brought the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009, HC 455 will be into force in April 2014. However, this date is not available from 11.00 am on Thursday 20 June. certain and I will make a further statement regarding the timing of commencement before the end of 2013. TRANSPORT

INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Motoring Services Strategy STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE

IPSA’s Main Estimate (2013-14) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond): The Department for Transport is committed to delivering better quality and better value Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Representing the motoring services to the public and business. I am Speaker’s Committee for the IPSA): The Speaker’s therefore pleased to announce today that a new single Committee for the IPSA is established under the agency will bring together the testing and standards Parliamentary Standards Act 2009. Under statute it services that are currently provided by the Vehicle and must review IPSA’s estimate before it is laid before the Operator Services Agency (VOSA) and the Driving House and decide whether it is satisfied that the estimate Standards Agency (DSA). These services will be delivered is consistent with the efficient and cost-effective discharge by the two agencies under a single chief executive and by IPSA of its functions. If it is not satisfied, the transitional board from July this year. Committee must modify the estimate to achieve that Bringing together the testing and standards services efficiency and cost-effectiveness. When considering the currently provided by VOSA and DSA will enable a single estimate the Committee must consult the Treasury and agency to deliver the same high-quality service, but with have regard to any advice given. greater efficiency, potentially allowing for the reduction The Committee, having considered IPSA’s draft estimate of fees. It will be easier for customers to navigate the 2013-14 in accordance with paragraph 22(3) of schedule services offered, and will reduce the administrative burden 1 to the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009, has decided for those individuals and businesses that currently have to modify the structure of the estimate by replacing regular contact with both DSA and VOSA. The initial move IPSA’s single subhead (B) covering all operational costs will take place in July this year—a single chief executive with two subheads (B and C) covering core operational and transitional board will oversee the two trading costs and project costs respectively. funds. The trading funds will continue in their current form for at least the next 12 months. By that time we It reached this decision following advice from HM expect the detail of the structural reorganisation to be Treasury that it might be desirable to provide separate complete. entries on the face of the estimate for core operational costs, which are subject to an annual 5% savings target, This move will result in an improved service to the and for project costs, which are outside the savings public. We will work to ensure that there is no detrimental target. The Committee concluded that the formal separation effect on the high quality of customer service delivery of the entries would provide greater assurance that during the transitional phase. We are also working costs have been attributed correctly and sensibly to the closely with employees from the agencies to help support individual budgets, and that the 5% target was being them through the changes. achieved. It would be in line with IPSA’s statutory duty This announcement follows the consultation on our to have regard to the principle that it should act in a way motoring services strategy which ran from 13 December which is efficient, cost effective and transparent in carrying 2012 to 7 March 2013. The strategy proposed rationalising out its functions. the roles and numbers of agencies to provide an improved The Committee also had regard to a request from and more efficient delivery of motoring services to HM Treasury that it should explore IPSA’s capability to customers. Respondents to the consultation were generally make additional savings on its operational costs, beyond supportive of this proposal, recognising the benefits its existing 5% target, in the current financial year. that such a move would bring, but were keen to protect Having discussed this with IPSA, the Committee concluded the quality of services. that the Authority did not have the capacity for additional I am also publishing the summary of responses to savings this year. It therefore found IPSA’s request for that consultation. Decisions on any other proposals resources to be appropriate, and approved it without detailed in the motoring services strategy will be announced amendment. in due course. 743W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 744W

Written Answers to Number Granted Granted UK European Total patents Questions national (UK) patents with UK effect patents from from from UK-registered UK-registered UK-registered Thursday 20 June 2013 Calendar year companies companies companies 2008 1,463 1,804 3,267 2009 1,579 1,517 3,096 2010 1,678 1,694 3,372 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS 2011 2,218 1,786 4,004 Genetically Modified Organisms: Crops 2012 2,148 1,869 4,017

Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions Public Bodies he has had with representatives of the GM industry about his policy on granting approval for the planting Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, of genetically modified crops. [160308] Innovation and Skills (1) what the name is of each member of (a) the Office for Fair Access, (b) each Mr Willetts: Authorising the planting of GM crops is regional development agency, (c) the Regulatory Policy a matter for the Secretary of State for Environment, Committee, (d) the Science and Technology Facilities Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Council, (e) the Student Loans Company, (f) the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson). Technology Strategy Board, (g) the UK Atomic Energy Authority and (h) the UK Commission for Employment Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for and Skills as at 1 January 2013; and what the (i) Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions declared ethnicity, (ii) term of office and (iii) remuneration he has had with scientists sceptical about the planting is of each such member; [160805] of genetically modified crops. [160400] (2) what the name is of each member of (a) the Film Industry Training Board, (b) the Higher Education Mr Willetts: The Secretary of State for Business, Funding Council for England, (c) the Industrial Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Development Advisory Board, (d) the Insolvency Twickenham (Vince Cable) has had no recent discussions. Practitioners Tribunal, (e) the Land Registration Rule However, I meet scientists with a range of views on Committee, (f) the Low Pay Commission, (g) the GM. I hope to meet my hon. Friend with scientists Medical Research Council and (h) Natural Environment sceptical of GM on the 17 July this year. Research Council as at 1 January 2013; and what the (i) Patents declared ethnicity, (ii) term of office and (iii) remuneration is of each such member; [160806] Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, (3) what the name is of each member of (a) the Innovation and Skills how many UK patents have been Competition Service, (b) the Construction Industry granted to UK-registered companies in each of the last Training Board, (c) Consumer Focus, (d) the Copyright 10 years. [160801] Tribunal, (e) the Council for Science and Technology, (f) Economic and Social Research Council, (g) the Jo Swinson: Patents having effect in the United Kingdom Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council can be granted by the Intellectual Property Office (UK and (h) the Engineering Construction Industry Training national patents) or the European Patent Office (European Board as at 1 January 2013; and what the (i) declared patents designating the United Kingdom). Information ethnicity, (ii) term of office and (iii) remuneration is of on whether an applicant is a registered UK company is each such member; [160807] not recorded as part of the granting process but this (4) what the name is of each member of (a) the information can be estimated through analysis. On the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service, (b) basis of such analysis, the number of patents granted to the Arts and Humanities Research Council, (c) the UK-registered companies that have effect in the United Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council, Kingdom is estimated in the following table: (d) the British Hallmarking Council, (e) Capital for Enterprise Limited, (f) the Central Arbitration Committee, Number (g) the Competition Appeals Tribunal and (h) the Granted Competition Commission as at 1 January 2013; and Granted UK European Total patents what the (i) declared ethnicity, (ii) term of office and national (UK) patents with UK effect (iii) remuneration is of each such member. [160808] patents from from from UK-registered UK-registered UK-registered Calendar year companies companies companies Jo Swinson: The information requested is being collated and will be sent to the right hon. Member, and placed in 2003 2,559 2,301 4,860 the Libraries of the House, shortly. 2004 2,721 2,196 4,917 2005 2,738 1,904 4,642 In line with Cabinet Office guidance, the ethnicity of 2006 2,133 2,021 4,154 members representing these bodies is not published, as 2007 1,439 1,728 3,167 the information is provided confidentially.The information is collected at application stage for inclusion in the 745W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 746W statistics published by Cabinet Office and the Office of Mr David Jones: Jobs Growth Wales is a Welsh the Commissioner for Public Appointments (OCPA) Government initiative and it is up to the Welsh Government which is anonymised. to assess its effectiveness. OCPA publishes anonymised ethnicity information However, it is completely ineffective in tackling youth on a yearly basis for appointments and reappointments unemployment for young people being supported by within their remit. the Work programme as the Welsh Government has The latest information can be found at: decided that those individuals are not eligible for support http://publicappointmentscommissioner.independent.gov.uk/ from Jobs Growth Wales. wp-content/uploads/2012/10/FINAL-OCPA-Statistics-2011- Foreign Investment in UK 12-2.pdf Regional Planning and Development Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the role of the UK’s Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for membership of the European Union on the level of Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has inward investment into Wales. [160436] made of the effects on regional growth of the Government’s welfare reforms. [160705] Mr David Jones: According to Ernst and Young, in 2012 Wales attracted its highest level of foreign investment Michael Fallon: The Department for Business, Innovation for five years. and Skills monitors sub-national economic performance When Ernst and Young asked existing and potential through official data sources and surveys; however, this inward investors whether a lower degree of integration aggregate level data does not facilitate the identification into the EU would make the UK a more attractive place of impacts specifically attributable to the Government’s to invest, 72% of companies interviewed in north America, welfare reforms that will help more people to move into and 66% of companies in Asia, said a lower degree of and progress in work, while supporting the most vulnerable. EU integration would make the UK a more attractive location for investment. Official Visits WALES Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Departmental Responsibilities if he will list all official visits that (a) he, (b) his Ministers and (c) his officials have undertaken in the Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for last six months, including the dates of the visit. [160437] Wales how many of the meetings listed in the most recent Quarterly Ministerial Transparency return for Stephen Crabb: Ministerial overseas visits and meetings his Department took place (a) at the premises of the with external organisations are published on a quarterly organisations listed, (b) at conferences and (c) at other basis. The most recent published figures can be found locations. [160666] at: https://www.gov.uk./government/publications/wales-office- Stephen Crabb: Meetings take place at a variety of quarter-4 locations, including Wales Office premises, at the Information for January to March 2013 will be published organisations being met and at other locations. shortly. Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for Information regarding ministerial visits is also published Wales how many of the visits to media outlets undertaken on the Wales Office website at: by Ministers in his Department and declared on the https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/wales-office most recent Quarterly Ministerial Transparency return Providing the same information for officials would be were for interviews. [160804] at disproportionate cost.

Stephen Crabb: None. Unemployment

Disciplinary Proceedings Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the increase in Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales unemployment in Wales since May 2010. [160448] how many staff were suspended from his Department on full pay in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; Mr David Jones: Since the quarter ending May 2010, and what costs were incurred as a result of such suspensions. ILO unemployment in Wales has fallen by 7,000, with [160426] the unemployment rate falling by 1.0 percentage point.

Stephen Crabb: None. Unemployment: Young People

Employment: Young People Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of trends in long-term Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales youth unemployment in Wales since May 2010. [160434] what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of Jobs Growth Wales in tackling youth unemployment in Mr David Jones: This Government is committed to Wales. [160449] tackling the legacy of long-term youth unemployment 747W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 748W left behind by the previous Government. Over the course from the House of Commons Service on full pay in (a) of the last Parliament (May 2005 to May 2010) long-term 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; and what costs youth unemployment in Wales increased by 659%. were incurred as a result of such suspensions. [160418] Long-term youth unemployment remains stubbornly high and is currently 93% higher than in May 2010, John Thurso: The total number of House of Commons however it is heading in the right direction with the Service staff suspended from work in the last three fourth consecutive monthly fall reported in May 2013. financial years was three. Some of these suspensions covered parts of more than one financial year. All were suspended on full pay. The figures are:

SCOTLAND Staff suspended Associated costs1 (£)

Conditions of Employment 2010-11 2 0 2011-12 1 £1,098.99 Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012-13 0 0 Scotland how many people in Scotland are employed 1 Costs of temporary staff cover. on zero hours contracts. [160800]

Michael Moore: According to ONS data, the figures ATTORNEY-GENERAL for zero hours contracts in the UK (non-seasonally adjusted) for October to December 2012 was 200,000. Disciplinary Proceedings The ONS do not publish the below UK level data as the sample size is too small. Mr Thomas: To ask the Attorney-General how many staff were suspended from the Law Officers’ Departments and their associated public bodies on full pay in (a) HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; and what costs were incurred as a result of such suspensions. [160406] Disciplinary Proceedings The Solicitor-General: The number of staff in the Mr Thomas: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Law Officers’ Departments who were suspended on full Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of pay and the associated salary costs for the periods Commons Commission, how many staff were suspended stated are shown in the following table:

2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 Number Number Number Department suspended Salary cost (£) suspended Salary cost (£) suspended Salary cost (£)

CPS1 9 98,082 5 62,651 2 14,326 SFO — — 1 1,940 — — TSol2 — — 1 8,500 — — 1 The suspension for two staff which commenced in 2010-11 continued into the 2011-12 year and have therefore been counted in both years. 2 The TSol data also covers the Attorney-General’s Office and HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate.

Fraud: Convictions Offender Sentence number Offence (months) Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General for 3 Theft Act 1968: False accounting contrary 190 what offences people were convicted in 2012-13 as a to s.l7(l) result of Serious Fraud Office investigations; and what Criminal Law Act 1977: Conspiracy to 1— sentence was applied in each such case. [159753] commit fraud by false representation, contrary to s1(1) The Solicitor-General: The SFO records show: 4 Proceeds of Crime Act 2002: Money 1108 Offender Sentence laundering contrary to section 327(1)(d) number Offence (months) Common Law—conspiracy to defraud 1— 1 Theft Act 1968: false accounting contrary 1144 to s.17(1) 5 Theft Act 1978: evasion of a liability by 130 Theft Act 1968: Obtaining money transfer 1— deception contrary to s2(l)(a) by deception contrary to section 15A Proceeds of Crime Act 2002: Money 1— 1 Fraud Act 2006: fraud by — laundering contrary to section 327(l)(d) misrepresentation contrary to s1(2) Proceeds of Crime Act 2001: Money 1— Laundering contrary to s329 2 Companies Act 1985: Fraudulent Trading 132 contrary to s.458 Companies Act 2006: Fraudulent Trading 1— 6 Common Law—conspiracy to defraud 72 contrary to s.993 7 Theft Act 1968: Contrary to s1.1 120 8 Common Law—conspiracy to defraud 132 749W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 750W

2012-13 Offender Sentence Number Rate (percentage) number Offence (months) Convictions 99 71.2 9 Common Law—conspiracy to defraud 96 Unsuccessful 40 28.8 Flagged Human 139 — 1 10 Common Law—conspiracy to defraud 40 Trafficking FSMA 2000: Contravened the general 1— Prosecutions prohibition of carrying on a regulated activity without permission (contrary to s19/s23) Legal Costs 1 Indicates brace. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Attorney-General what the The sentences of two offenders are subject to reporting 20 highest amounts paid for external legal advice by the restrictions and cannot be provided. Two offenders Law Officers’ Departments were in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 convicted in 2012-13 have not yet been sentenced. and (c) 2012; to whom those amounts were paid; and for what reasons the legal advice was sought in each such case. [155612] Human Trafficking The Solicitor-General: Tables containing the 20 highest Stephen Phillips: To ask the Attorney-General how amounts paid for external legal advice during the past many victims recognised as being trafficked under the three years by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), National Referral Mechanism were served with a The Treasury Solicitor’s Department (TSol) and the summons and prosecuted by the Crown Prosecution past two years by Attorney-General’s Office have been Service for criminal offences in each of the last five placed in the Library of the House. It cannot be guaranteed years. [160670] that the TSol/AGO data is complete, particularly in respect of the older figures. There have been historic The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service problems with record keeping in respect of the time and (CPS) maintains no central record of the number of disbursements incurred for the AGO and TSol’s own prosecutions against victims identified by the National cases (which are not billed to other Departments). This Referral Mechanism (NRM) as having been trafficked. was addressed and systems are now in place to ensure To obtain this information would require a manual accurate recording in the future. check of all case files which would incur disproportionate The TSol entries between 2010 and 2012 may also cost. cover some legal representation as well as advice. This is However, the CPS has issued comprehensive legal because the available records do not always make a guidance to advise prosecutors of the steps they should clear distinction between the two areas. It is also not take in cases where the police have arrested potential possible to ascertain the specific reasons why legal victims of trafficking who have committed criminal advice was sought for the CPS records without incurring offences and referred them for charge. If information a disproportionate cost. suggests that they have been trafficked, prosecutors are The Serious Fraud Office (SFO) does not routinely advised to make full inquiries and consider whether the distinguish between external legal advice and external case against them should be discontinued. However, a litigation (legal representation) services when recording prosecutor can only take these steps if they have information legal expenditure and it is therefore not possible to from the police or other sources that a suspect might be provide the information requested without incurring a a victim of trafficking. disproportionate cost. The CPS is considering issuing new guidelines to HMCPSI has not recorded any expenditure on external prosecutors following recent cases in the Court of Appeal legal advice since 7 May 2010. in which victims of trafficking were prosecuted and convicted, having been advised to plead guilty by their legal representative. The new guidelines will be shared in due course with law enforcement and the Law Society ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS to ensure a joined-up approach in these cases. Horses: Animal Welfare David Simpson: To ask the Attorney-General what prosecutions there have been for human trafficking Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for offences in the last 12 months for which figures are Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what recent available. [160712] representations he has received concerning the hot branding of horses; and if he will make a statement; [159962] The Solicitor-General: The CPS maintain a record of (2) what recent discussions he has had with equine human trafficking prosecutions by way of a database welfare and veterinary organisations on the hot monitoring flag. A flag is applied at the onset of a case branding of horses and ponies; and if he will make a and remains in place even if charges relating to human statement. [159964] trafficking offences are subsequently amended or dropped. There were 139 defendant prosecutions, flagged as human Mr Heath: We have received a number of representations trafficking prosecutions, recorded during the most recent from equine welfare organisations on hot branding. 12 month period (April 2012 to March 2013). Details While the Government accepts that there is currently a are as follows: need for semi-wild moorland ponies to be hot branded, 751W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 752W we have asked the semi-wild moorland pony societies to Employment prepare a code of practice on hot branding and to continue to look for suitable alternatives. Gloria De Piero: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what the employment rate was in (a) Ashfield constituency, (b) Nottinghamshire and (c) the UK in each year since 2007. [160953] CABINET OFFICE Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Graduates: Lancashire responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Letter from Glen Watson: Jake Berry: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what estimate he has made of the number of As Director General for the Office for National Statistics (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question unemployed graduates in (a) Lancashire and (b) asking the Minister for the Cabinet Office what the employment Rossendale and Darwen constituency. [160844] rate was in (a) Ashfield constituency, (b) Nottinghamshire and (c) the UK in each year since 2007. (160953) Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles employment responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey asked the authority to reply. (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. Statistics for the UK have been compiled on a comparable basis. Letter from Glen Watson, dated June 2013: The table shows the percentage of people aged 16 to 64 resident As Director General for the Office for National Statistics in the requested areas who were employed, according to survey (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question responses, in the 12 month period ending in December 2012, the asking the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate latest available period, and for the 12 month periods ending in he has made of the number of unemployed graduates in (a) December from 2007 to 2011 from the APS. Lancashire and (b) Rossendale and Darwen constituency. (160844) As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles unemployment to a margin of uncertainty. statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey National and local area estimates for many labour market (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant Whilst the APS does collect data on graduate unemployment, no count are available on the NOMIS website at: reliable statistics can be produced for Lancashire or Rossendale and Darwen constituency due to small sample sizes. http://www.nomisweb.co.uk National and local area estimates for many labour market Table 1: Percentage of people aged 16 to 64 in employment statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant Percentage count are available on the NOMIS website at: 12 months http://www.nomisweb.co.uk ending United December: Ashfield Nottinghamshire Kingdom Conditions of Employment: Wales 2007 63.3 74.0 72.4 2008 69.5 73.4 72.1 2009 68.3 72.2 70.5 Jessica Morden: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office (1) what estimate he has made of the number of 2010 70.6 72.6 70.1 2011 67.2 70.1 70.0 workers on zero hours contracts in Wales; [160702] 2012 67.8 72.3 70.6 (2) how many 16 to 24 year olds in Wales have been Source: on zero hours contracts in each year since 2010. Annual Population Survey [160703] Employment: Peterborough Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister for the asked the authority to reply. Cabinet Office what the net change in the number of Letter from Glen Watson, dated June 2013: private sector jobs in (a) Peterborough constituency and (b) Peterborough city council area since 2010 has As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I been in the latest period for which figures are available. have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Questions asking for the number of workers on zero hours contracts in Wales [160645] (160702); and how many 16 to 24 year olds in Wales have been on zero hours contracts in each year since 2010 (160703). Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles labour responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have market statistics for local areas from the Annual Population asked the authority to reply. Survey (APS), following International Labour Organisation (ILO) Letter from Glen Watson: definitions. Estimates of the number of zero hour contracts are As Director General for the Office for National Statistics not available from this source. Estimates of the number of people (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question on zero-hours contracts are available from the Labour Force to the Minister for the Cabinet Office asking what the net change Survey, but due to sample size are not available for areas smaller in the number of private sector jobs in (a) Peterborough constituency than the UK. and (b) Peterborough City Council area since 2010 has been in National and local area estimates for many labour market the latest period for which figures are available. (160645) statistics, including employment, unemployment and Claimant Information regarding the number of private sector jobs in Count are available on the NOMIS website at: parliamentary constituencies and local authorities is not available. http://www.nomisweb.co.uk As an alternative, estimates relating to the number of people 753W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 754W employed in the private sector have been provided. The ONS Esther McVey: A carer is not entitled to carer’s compiles Labour Market Statistics for areas below the UK following allowance if they are in full-time education; this is a International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions using the long-standing rule and has always been the case. For Annual Population Survey (APS). carer’s allowance purposes a person is treated as being Individuals in the APS are classified to the public or private in full-time education if they attend a course for 21 hours sector according to their responses to the survey. The private sector estimates provided do not correspond to those derived as or more a week. The 21 hours is the time spent in part of the calculation of the official Public Sector Employment supervised study and can include coursework and estimates. These are based on a National Accounts’ definition, homework set by the tutor, but excludes breaks. are generally higher and are not available for areas smaller then It is a general rule in social security that benefits are regions. not available to students, except in very limited The table shows the number of people employed in the private circumstances, because there is a system of student sector in Peterborough constituency and Peterborough City Council grants and loans to help with their support for the area and the net changes. These estimates are compiled from APS interviews held during the period January 2012 to December duration of their courses, including outside term time. 2012, the latest period available, and the 12 month period ending The system is available to carers as it is to other students. in December 2010. Disability Living Allowance As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject to a margin of uncertainty. A guide to the quality of the estimates is given in the table. Mr Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work National and local area estimates for many labour market and Pensions how many people in (a) Jarrow constituency, statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant (b) South Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) the count are available on the NOMIS website at: UK were in receipt of the (i) higher and (ii) lower rate http://www.nomisweb.co.uk mobility component of disability living allowance in Table 1: The net change in the number of people employed in the each year since that allowance’s introduction. [160302] private sector1 in Peterborough constituency and Peterborough city council area Esther McVey: The information requested is available Thousand on the online tabtool: Peterborough constituency Peterborough city council http://83.244.183.180/100pc/tabtool.html area Number of Number Employers’ Liability 12 people Net change of people Net change months employed in employed in ending aged 16 employment2 aged 16 employment2 Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for December: and over (+/-) and over (+/-) Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the adequacy of the oversight of employer liability insurance undertaken by the Health and Safety Executive. [160831] 2010 39 — 59 — 20123 **40 0 **64 5 Mr Hoban: The Health and Safety Executive ensures 1 Individuals in the APS are classified to the public or private sector that compliance with the requirement to hold employer’s according to their responses to the survey. liability insurance remains high. This is done through 2 The net change is calculated on unrounded figures. the provision of guidance and enforcement action, up 3 Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as an indication of the quality of the estimates. See Guide to Quality to and including prosecution where necessary. Indeed, below. an independent survey published in 2012 showed that Guide to Quality: 94% of employers required to hold this insurance said The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, they had it. the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 Employment: Halifax with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220 Key: Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for Work *0≤ CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered precise and Pensions what proportion of working age Halifax ≤ ** 5 CV <10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered residents are employed in the public sector. [160360] reasonably precise *** 10 ≤ CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered acceptable Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the **** CV ≥ 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too Cabinet Office. unreliable for practical purposes CV = Coefficient of Variation The information requested falls within the responsibility Source: of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority Annual Population Survey. to reply. Letter from Glen Watson: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics WORK AND PENSIONS (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions asking what proportion of working age Halifax residents are employed in the Carer’s Allowance public sector (160360). ONS compiles Labour Market Statistics for areas below the Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work UK following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions and Pensions for what reason parents in receipt of using the Annual Population Survey (APS). carer’s allowance who take out a loan and enrol in Individuals in the APS are classified to the public or private higher education are no longer eligible for the allowance. sector according to their responses to the survey. The public [160797] sector estimates provided do not correspond to those derived as 755W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 756W part of the calculation of the official Public Sector Employment Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing estimates. These are based on a National Accounts’ definition, are generally lower and are not available for areas smaller then Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for regions. Work and Pensions how much each local authority 15% of the population aged 16 to 64 resident in Halifax, were returned to his Department in unused discretionary employed in the public sector, according to estimates compiled housing payment funding in 2012-13. [160356] from APS interviews held during the period January 2012 to December 2012, the latest period available. Steve Webb: I will place a copy of the Discretionary As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject Housing Payment unused allocation table for 2012-13 to a margin of uncertainty. in the Library which shows how much of the Government National and local area estimates for many labour market contribution towards Discretionary Housing Payments statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant in 2012-13 was unused by each local authority. count are available on the NOMIS website at: As a one-off arrangement agreed by Treasury local http://www.nomisweb.co.uk authorities were allowed to carry-forward unspent Discretionary Housing Payment funding from 2011-12 Housing Benefit: Greater London to 2012-13, in total £7.9 million was carried forward.

Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether there is any provision in Work and Pensions how much was paid in discretionary the arrangements for the under-occupancy penalty for housing payments in each London borough in each of parents whose children are in care but where it is hoped the last 12 months. [160789] that they will join their parents in the future; and if he will make a statement. [160788] Steve Webb: The information requested is not available on a monthly basis. Steve Webb: Existing housing benefit regulations do not allow for children who are being looked after by (or The following table details the total reported expenditure in Scotland is in the care of) a local authority, to be on discretionary housing payments for each London treated as a member of the household for housing authority for 2012-13. benefit purposes. Amount of discretionary housing Consequently the removal of the spare room subsidy payments awarded throughout will apply where children are in care in both the social Authority name 2012-13 (£) and private rented sector. Barking 293,585 Claimants in these circumstances may apply for support Barnet 551,710 from the Discretionary Housing Payment scheme. Bexley 161,138 Industrial Health and Safety Brent 2,004,885 Bromley 250,858 Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Camden 562,211 Work and Pensions how much his Department has City of London 11,175 provided to local authorities for the purposes of enforcing Croydon 663,980 occupational health and safety requirements in each of Ealing 1,012,252 the last five years; how this amount was determined; Enfield 824,238 and what proportion of such funding provided local Greenwich 579,408 authorities used for this purpose. [160830] Hackney 1,014,761 Hammersmith 402,349 Mr Hoban: The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) Haringey 804,093 does not provide funding to local authorities (LAs) for Harrow 351,989 the purposes of enforcing occupational health and safety Havering 161,426 requirements. LAs are under a legal duty to ensure they Hillingdon 413,531 make adequate arrangements for enforcement within their area. HSE provides statutory guidance to assist Hounslow 299,991 LAs to target their resources effectively. Islington 599,978 Kensington and Chelsea 1,307,993 Innovation Fund Kingston upon Thames 113,621 Lambeth 615,578 Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for Lewisham 377,181 Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 16 May Merton 182,734 2013, Official Report, column 350W, on the Innovation Newham 517,206 Fund: Scotland, whether he has made a decision on Redbridge 375,474 whether it is feasible to publish statistics relating to the Richmond upon Thames 200,982 Innovation Fund. [160791] Southwark 369,883 Sutton 151,206 Mr Hoban: We published an official statistics ad-hoc Tower Hamlets 505,202 release on 5 June 2013 which reports progress on starts Waltham Forest 473,277 and outcomes on the Innovation Fund Pilot. The release Wandsworth 453,543 can be found at: Westminster 3,628,650 http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/adhoc_analysis/2013/ youth_unemploy_if_pilot.pdf 757W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 758W

Low Incomes out of poverty, children in workless households are around three times more likely to be in poverty than those in working families. Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many families in work with The evidence consistently shows that the best routes children were earning less than the average national out of poverty are through parents being in work and weekly income in each year since 2010; and if he will through a child’s educational achievement which can make a statement. [160451] stop a poor child becoming a poor adult. Income matters but it is also about addressing barriers to employment and ensuring that every family has the Esther McVey: The information requested is shown skills and opportunity to lift themselves out of poverty. in the following table: We are introducing the universal credit which will Table 1: Number of families with children with incomes below average income1 by economic status, Before Housing Costs, United Kingdom reduce child poverty through making work pay and providing an effective route out of poverty. Universal Million credit will improve work incentives by allowing individuals Number of families with children with incomes below various measures of average income1, to keep more of their income as they move into work, Before Housing Costs, United Kingdom and by introducing a smoother and more transparent Below median income reduction of benefits when they increase their earnings. Number of Universal credit will also reduce child poverty by re-focusing families with of entitlements on lower income in-work households children whose and having a simpler system that should lead to a family type is: 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 considerable increase in the take-up compared to the At least one adult 3.1 3.2 3.3 current complex system of benefits and tax credits. in work We want to develop better measures of child poverty Workless families 1.2 1.2 1.1 which include, but go beyond income to provide a more Total 4.3 4.3 4.3 accurate picture of the reality of child poverty. Our 1 Average income is defined as the median equivalised net household consultation on how best to measure child poverty income, where median income divides the population of families, closed on 15 February. The complexity of the issue when ranked by income, into two equal sized groups. Equivalisation is means that we need to take time to ensure we have the the process that makes adjustments to incomes, so that the standard of living of households with different compositions can be compared. best option for measuring child poverty, so that we can Notes: ensure we properly tackle the causes. We will publish 1. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income our response as soon as we can. (HBAI) data sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS). This uses disposable household income, adjusted using modified OECD equivalisation factors for household size and composition, as an Redundancy: Halifax income measure as a proxy for standard of living. 2. Figures have been presented on an Before Housing Cost basis. Housing costs consist of (rent, water rates, mortgage interest payments, Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for Work buildings insurance payments and ground rent and service charges). and Pensions how many (a) public sector and (b) 3. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a private sector jobs have been lost in Halifax since May degree of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution 2010. [160454] as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. 4. The reference period for HBAI figures is the financial year. 5. Numbers of families with children have been rounded to the Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the nearest 100,000, and may not sum due to rounding. Cabinet Office. Source: FRS The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority Families with children are defined as a single adult or to reply. a couple living together with dependent children. Letter from Glen Watson: The number of working families with children who have a household income of less than the national As Director General for the Office for National Statistics (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question weekly median is calculated on the basis of household to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions asking how many income for all families. Therefore, the median income (a) public sector and (b) private sector jobs have been lost in divides the population of all families, when ranked by Halifax since May 2010. (160454) income, into two equal sized groups. Information regarding the number of jobs lost is not available. The statistics published in the Households Below As an alternative, estimates relating to the number of people Average Income publication are based on the number of employed have been provided. ONS compiles Labour Market people below various thresholds of median household Statistics for areas below the UK following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions using the Annual Population Survey income for all individuals, and are therefore produced (APS). on a different basis to the figures provided in Table 1. Individuals in the APS are classified to the public or private Further information can be found in the Household sector according to their responses to the survey. The public Below Average Income series published at sector estimates provided do not correspond to those derived as http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=hbai part of the calculation of the official Public Sector Employment estimates. These are based on a National Accounts’ definition, The Households Below Average Income figures show are generally lower and are not available for areas smaller then that the proportion of children in working families has regions. risen, this is because the overall proportion of children The table shows the number of people employed in the public in workless households has fallen as more families have and private sector in Halifax and net changes. These estimates are moved into work. However, work remains the best route compiled from APS interviews held during the period January 759W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 760W

2012 to December 2012, the latest period available, and the Social Security Benefits: Appeals 12 month periods ending in December in each year since 2010, which includes May 2010. Mr Darling: To ask the Secretary of State for Work As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject and Pensions what guidance has been issued to Jobcentre to a margin of uncertainty. A guide to the quality of the estimates Plus offices in relation to the time taken to implement is given in the table. decisions of tribunals where they relate to successful National and local area estimates for many labour market appeals by individuals. [160200] statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant count are available on the NOMIS website at: Esther McVey: Appeal outcomes are treated as a http://www.nomisweb.co.uk change of circumstances for processing purposes. This means that once the outcome has been received (by Table 1: The net change in the number of people employed in the public and private sector1 in Halifax e-mail), the decision checked for correctness and the Thousand Decision Making and Appeals Case Recording (DMACR) system updated, it will be passed by the decision-maker Public sector employment Private sector employment to the benefit processor for action. The Department’s Number of Number Code of Appeals Procedures, which is available on people Net change of people Net change DWP website, includes guidance that the tribunal’s employed in employed in decision should be put into effect as soon as possible. aged 16 employment2 aged 16 employment2 and over (+/-) and over (+/-) Unemployment: Young People

12 months ending: Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for December 9 — 35 — Work and Pensions what discussions he has had with 2010 the Secretary of State for Education on the effect of December 8-2341school careers advice on levels of youth unemployment; 2011 and if he will make a statement. [160832] December **10 2 **35 1 20123 Mr Hoban: There have been no recent discussions 1 Individuals in the APS are classified to the public or private sector with the Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. according to their responses to the survey. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), 2 The net change is calculated on unrounded figures. on the effect of schools careers service on levels of 3 Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as youth unemployment. an indication of the quality of the estimates. See Guide to Quality below. Departmental officials continue to work closely with Guide to Quality: the Department for Education in setting up a strategy The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, to improving opportunities for young people, so they the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely can succeed in education and training and gain the to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within skills they need to secure employment or gain an the range 180-220 apprenticeship. The strategy sets out how radical reforms Key: to schools, vocational education, skills and welfare provision *0≤ CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered precise will all make a significant difference to young people’s ≤ ** 5 CV <10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered opportunities and support. reasonably precise *** 10 ≤ CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered In addition to this, I continue to meet with the acceptable Minister of Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for West **** CV ≥ 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too Suffolk (Matthew Hancock), to work on ways to reduce unreliable for practical purposes youth unemployment. CV = Coefficient of Variation Source: Annual Population Survey. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Social Rented Housing: Edinburgh Architecture: Planning

Peter Aldous: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Darling: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Communities and Local Government (1) what assessment and Pensions what recent estimate he has made of the he has made of the effect of the National Planning amount of available single roomed accommodation Policy Framework on the quality of design in the built owned by (a) housing associations and (b) the City of environment; [159965] Edinburgh Council within the City of Edinburgh; and what estimate he has made of the number of outstanding (2) what measures he is taking to deliver upon the applications for such accommodation. [160199] commitment outlined in A Housing Strategy for England, Chapter 7, to improve standards of design for new houses in England. [160130] Steve Webb: The Department does not hold data on available single-roomed accommodation or applications Mr Foster: The Government attaches great importance for social housing. to the design of the built environment. The National Planning Policy Framework contains a strong set of Information on local authority housing lists for each policies on designs enshrining good design as a core local authority in Scotland is available at: planning principle and sending a clear message to councils http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0040/00400707.xls to reject development of poor design. 761W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 762W

Local authorities and organisations, including the Housing: Construction Royal Institute for British Architects, have welcomed the framework stating that a clear message has been John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for sent to developers, planning officers and committees Communities and Local Government how many (a) that poor-quality development will no longer be accepted. housing starts and (b) housing completions there have The policies on design in the framework must be been for (i) all properties, (ii) properties for social rent, taken into account in the preparation of local and (iii) properties for affordable rent and (iv) all properties neighbourhood plans. It is through the local and classed as affordable housing since 2007-08. [160235] neighbourhood plan process that design policies that will influence development locally, are tested and adopted. Mr Prisk: Statistics on house building starts and We have made good progress on local plans, with seven completions by tenure in each local authority are published out of 10 councils now having a published local plan, in the Department’s live tables 253 (annual) and 253a compared to three out of 10 in May 2010. As of April (quarterly), which are available at the following link: 2013 over 500 communities are taking up the right to https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live- make a legally binding neighbourhood plan for their tables-on-house-building area. Taken together, the housing association and local authority To meet Housing Strategy commitments we have also tenures provide estimates of total social housing starts provided funding to Design Council that has enabled it and completions, but these figures mostly understate to work with partners to establish ways of delivering total affordable supply. This is because the house building design support to communities, councils and developers figures are categorised by the type of developer rather and encouraged industry to innovate, for example through than the intended final tenure, leading to under recording the annual Housing Design Awards. of affordable housing, and a corresponding over recording Empty Property of private enterprise figures. More comprehensive statistics on affordable housing Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for starts and completions funded by the Homes and Communities and Local Government how many empty Communities Agency and the Greater London Authority properties have been brought back into use, by local since 2009-10 by tenure are available at the following authority, since May 2010. [159973] link: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/ Mr Foster: Annual statistics on total numbers of affordable-housing-starts-and-completions-funded-by-the- vacant dwellings and those vacant longer than six months hca-and-the-gla-2012-to-2013 in each local authority district in England are published These statistics include both newly built housing and in the Department’s live table 615, which is available at acquisitions but exclude delivery of affordable housing the following link: not funded by the Homes and Communities Agency https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live- and Greater London Authority programmes that are tables-on-dwelling-stock-including-vacants reported in local authority returns to the Department. Comparison of the figures over successive years shows A fuller picture of all affordable housing completions the net change in numbers vacant. The net figures result (but not starts) is published in the Department’s live from the balance of properties being brought back into tables 1000, 1006, 1007 and 1008, which are available at use and those falling vacant over the year. the following link: The number of long-term empty homes has already https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live- fallen by 20,000 between 2011 and 2012 and by over tables-on-affordable-housing-supply 40,800 since 2010. Ministers will keep the House updated with progress. Property Evictions Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr McCrea: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what the (a) Communities and Local Government how many people location and (b) value is of any property his Department in each constituent part of the UK have been evicted in owns in Scotland. [160275] the last five years; and what proportion of such evictees have had children. [160104] Brandon Lewis: The Department for Communities and Local Government does not own any properties in Mr Prisk: The Department collects information for Scotland. England only. Statistics on evictions from local authority housing but not family composition are available from Local Authority Housing Statistics: https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department- HOME DEPARTMENT for-communities-and-local-government/series/local-authority- housing-data Statistics on evictions from private registered providers Asylum (housing associations) are also limited to total numbers: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120419011320/ Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the http://www.tenantservicesauthority.org/upload/pdf/ Home Department how many settlement applications Statistical_release_August 2011r.pdf were made by asylum seekers between 1 October and The Department does not collect statistics on evictions 31 December 2012; and how many such applications from owner occupied or private rental housing. were outstanding on 31 December 2012. [160684] 763W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 764W

Mr Harper: Between 1 October and 31 December treaties, what the cost to the public purse has been of 2012, a total of 2,277 applications for settlement were responding to requests made under mutual legal received by individuals who have been granted asylum. assistance treaties by the US; and if she will make a Of these 2,221 applications were pending on 31 December statement. [160466] 2012. Notes: Mr Harper [holding answer 19 June 2013]: We do not 1. The figures quoted have been derived from management information hold information on the cost of receiving, acceding to, and are therefore provisional and subject to change. This information and executing mutual legal assistance (MLA) requests has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. from the United States of America. 2. Figures relate to asylum main applicants. 3. Figures relate to applications made for settlement by individuals Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the that have made an application for asylum. Home Department pursuant to the answer of 6 June 2013, Official Report, column 1230W, on legal opinion: Borders: Personal Records treaties, how many requests have been made under mutual legal assistance treaties with the US since that Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the measure’s inception; and if she will make a statement. Home Department what financial provision her [160467] Department has made to cover the (a) ongoing legal costs of and (b) costs of a potential settlement resulting Mr Harper [holding answer 19 June 2013]: Between from the binding arbitration process brought by Raytheon 1 February 2010 and 31 May 2013 the UK Central Systems Ltd. [160168] Authority (UKCA) in the Home Office (the central authority for all mutual legal assistance requests for Mr Harper: The Department, based on legal advice, England and Wales and Northern Ireland) sent 337 requests has not set aside any funds to cover potential costs or to the US. In the same period the UKCA received 141 liabilities. Within the Department’s accounts, the latest requests from the US. position with respect to the ongoing dispute is disclosed Note: as a contingent liability. The information has been provided from local management information and has not been quality assured to the level of Disciplinary Proceedings published National Statistics. As such it should be treated as provisional. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the Rangers Football Club Home Department how many staff were suspended from her Department and its associated public bodies Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for on full pay in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; the Home Department what progress is being made by and what costs were incurred as a result of such suspensions. the Police Service of Scotland and the Procurator [160417] Fiscal West of Scotland in their investigation into alleged leaks of confidential information relating to James Brokenshire [holding answer 18 June 2013]: Glasgow Rangers FC’s tax details. [157322] This information is not held in our central records and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Damian Green: An investigation into alleged leaks of Immigrants: Tuberculosis confidential information relating to the tax details of Murray International Holdings Ltd, the former majority shareholder in Rangers Football Club, and its owner Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for the and former Chairman of the Club, Sir David Murray, is Home Department what screening for (a) tuberculosis being carried out jointly by the Economic Crime Unit and (b) drug-resistant tuberculosis is undertaken on of the Police Service of Scotland and HM Revenue and people seeking to become resident in the UK (i) in Customs. The Procurator Fiscal for the West of Scotland general and (ii) from countries with populations is liaising closely with law enforcement about the progress suffering from higher levels of infection. [159293] of the investigation. As the investigation is ongoing it would not be appropriate to comment. Mr Harper: The Home Office has had in place the requirement for pre-screening for tuberculosis in 15 Sean Lopes countries since 2005 as part of the UK visa application process. We are in the process of implementing the Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for the requirement for TB pre-screening in a further 67 high Home Department what assessment she has made of incidence countries (as defined by the World Health how the US fugitive, Sean Lopes was able to (a) enter Organisation).This will be completed by the end of the UK and (b) live and work here while being pursued 2013. We do not require screening for TB in low incidence by US authorities for a violent crime. [156326] countries. Pre- screening for TB is required by an individual who is travelling to the UK from one of the designated Mr Harper [holding answer 20 May 2013]: The Home countries for more than six months. Office cannot comment on individual cases. Legal Opinion: Treaties Stun Guns

Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 6 June Home Department with reference to the answer of 2013, Official Report, column 1230W, on legal opinion: 29 October 2012, Official Report, column 73W, on 765W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 766W

Freedom of Information, for what reason Taser statistics Norman Baker: The Department for Transport, its six since March 2010 have not yet been published; and Executive Agencies and 13 of its Arm’s Length Bodies when she plans to publish such statistics. [160704] are included in the table below. The Maritime & Coastguard Agency and Trinity Damian Green: The original database used to store House cannot provide any data for this request as they the Police Use of Taser statistics was created in 2003 to do not hold the relevant information centrally. cater for the operational trial. This version of the database became increasingly outdated and was operating outside 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 of its original design specification. A decision was taken to develop a new database in 2011 which would Suspended staff 38 28 49 automatically enter the data from the Taser data forms. (number) We have experienced significant issues with the migration Gross wages paid to 218,286.38 110,654.74 327,788.40 to this new version of the database. staff while suspended (£) We have resolved these problems and are in the final stages of a thorough data validation exercise. We will publish this information when we have finished this Driving Instruction exercise. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent steps his Department has taken to ensure young drivers are given adequate training for TRANSPORT driving on rural roads. [160067] A338 Stephen Hammond: All learner drivers are encouraged to obtain a wide range of pre-test driving experience; Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport the voluntary Pass Plus scheme includes a module about (1) which body is responsible for maintenance of the driving on rural roads and the theory test contains A338; and what plans are in place to complete the road questions about rural driving. The Department is publishing widening project on that road; [160695] a Green Paper later this year which will look at a range (2) what plans are in place for improvements to road of options for ensuring young drivers have the skills access to Bournemouth International Airport. [160696] and knowledge they need to stay safe on the roads. This could include a minimum learning period and a requirement Norman Baker: Maintenance of the A338 or any for learner drivers to gain experience on rural roads plans to upgrade it, are in the first instance the responsibility before taking their practical driving test. of a number of local highway authorities rather than the Department for Transport. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) how many new drivers between the ages Conditions of Employment of 17 and 25 years took the Pass Plus training course in each of the last five years; [160068] Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what assessment he has made of the effectiveness Transport how many staff were retained on zero-hour of Pass Plus in helping to prevent accidents among new contracts by (a) his Department and (b) the executive drivers; [160069] agencies and non-departmental public bodies for which (3) what steps his Department is taking to encourage he is responsible in (i) 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12 and (iii) drivers between the ages of 17 and 25 to take Pass Plus 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [160776] after passing their driving tests. [160143]

Norman Baker: The table below shows the number of Stephen Hammond: The following table shows the staff employed in the Vehicle Certification Agency on volume of Pass Plus certificates issued by the Driving zero-hour contracts during 2010-11, 2011-12 and 2012-13. Standards Agency (DSA) in the last five years. All were qualified type approval engineers. Number of certificates issued Number 2008-09 89,668 2010-11 7 2009-10 74,821 2011-12 8 2010-11 68,571 2012-13 9 2011-12 49,013 There were no staff retained on zero-hours contract 2012-13 39,386 in the central Department, the remaining executive 2013-14 16,364 agencies and non-departmental public bodies. 1 Year to date. DSA does not collect data about the age of drivers Disciplinary Proceedings who complete a Pass Plus course, though it is reasonable to assume the majority would be between 17 and Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport 25 years old. how many staff were suspended from his Department A report by the Association of British Insurers, published and its associated public bodies on full pay in (a) in 2006, showed that drivers who participated in the 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; and what costs Pass Plus scheme had a marginally lower accident rate were incurred as a result of such suspensions. [160424] than drivers who did not. We continue to explore with 767W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 768W the insurance industry options for improving market Driving: Licensing confidence so that we can maximise the incentives and take-up of post-test training initiatives. The Department Mr Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for will publish a Green Paper later this year looking at a Transport when he last met the Postal Affairs Minister range of options for ensuring young drivers have the to discuss the installation of Cogent digital camera skills and knowledge they need to stay safe on the roads. equipment in post offices to process driving licence This could include a minimum learning period to encourage applications and the effect this has had on the rural learner drivers to obtain a wider range of driving experience post office network. [160355] before the practical driving test. Stephen Hammond: There has been no meeting between Driving Under Influence Ministers at the Department of Transport and the Minister with responsibility for the Post Office to discuss the installation of Cogent digital camera equipment in Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for post offices to process driving license applications. Transport what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of television campaigns in preventing (a) High Speed 2 Railway Line drink driving and (b) drug driving. [160064]

Stephen Hammond: We evaluate all campaigns we Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for run to ensure they are effective, that we continually Transport what assessment he has made of the report improve performance; and that we ultimately deliver a from the Office of the Rail Regulator showing a decline return on investment and value for money for the in usage across all rail sectors over the last 12 months taxpayer. We set key performance indicators prior to and the effect of this report on the economic evaluation each campaign and measure these before and immediately of High Speed 2; and if he will make a statement. after the campaign runs. [160665] Not all of our campaigns involve TV, instead we focus spend on the channels that are most efficient in Mr Simon Burns: Provisional statistics from the Office reaching our target audience and most likely to change of Rail Regulation on usage of the rail network indicate behaviour. that annual franchised passenger kilometres travelled The Department has run drink drive campaigns for on the rail network increased from 56.9 billion in 2011-12 over 30 years. During this time our campaigns have to 58 billion in 2012-13. This represents an increase of helped to change attitudes and make drink-driving socially 46% since 2002-03. Growing usage of the rail network is unacceptable. For example, since our current personal an important driver of the case for HS2. Network Rail consequences campaign launched in 2007, the percentage estimates suggest that the West Coast Main Line will be of young men agreeing that it is extremely unacceptable overwhelmed by the mid 2020s if we do nothing. to drive after two pints has increased from 51% to 61%. We have also increased consideration of the personal Motor Vehicles: Insurance consequences of a drink-driving conviction—agreement that being caught drink-driving would change my life Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for dramatically has increased from 73% to 91%. Transport what estimate he has made of the number of Over the last 30 years drink drive casualties have car insurance companies offering lower premiums to fallen significantly. It is difficult to separate out the drivers who use telematics technology. [160428] impact of drink drive campaigns from other factors such as enforcement, but econometric modelling the Stephen Hammond: I am aware of 17 insurance Department commissioned estimates that 30 years of companies who provide telematics products for drivers. drink drive campaigns has saved 2,000 lives, prevented Depending on driving behaviour, lower insurance premiums over 10,000 serious injuries and created a value to may be awarded to drivers for using these products. society of £3 billion. Drug drive campaigns have run less frequently. The Roads: Safety last campaign ran in 2009 and included TV advertising. Following the campaign, we saw positive shifts in some key performance indicators. For example, the percentage Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for of the target audience who agreed the police could Transport how much his Department has spent on detect a drug driver if stopped increased from 78% to campaigns promoting road safety in each of the last 83%. three years. [160065] Our THINK! communication campaigns are only one part of our road safety work. We’re introducing a Stephen Hammond: The Department’s road safety new drug driving offence through the Crime and Courts publicity programme expenditure for the last three years Bill. It will be an offence to drive a motor vehicle if you was: have certain controlled drugs in your body in excess of the limits set for them. £

The new drug-driving offence will improve the law 2010-11 2,342,563 available for tackling the problem of drug-driving and 2011-12 3,995,586 we plan to support this when it’s introduced with a 2012-13 3,608,680 further communications campaign. 769W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 770W

Shipping Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the answer of 10 June 2013, Official Report, Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport column 119W, on shipping: training, if he will invite pursuant to the answer of 10 June 2013, Official Report, representatives of the maritime trade unions to attend column 119W, on shipping: training, whether maritime (a) the maritime round table scheduled for July 2013 policy issues related to training of UK seafarers were and (b) all future meetings of the maritime round table. discussed at the maritime round table meeting held in [160734] March 2013; and what (a) outcomes and (b) actions in this area were agreed. [160731] Stephen Hammond: We value the important work of the maritime trade unions and are keen to continue Stephen Hammond: Maritime training was discussed ongoing dialogue with them. The invite list for the in the wider context of growth and promotion of the maritime round tables has been kept small to enable a maritime sector as a whole. The sector is an important strategically focused dialogue on the maritime sector’s contributor to the UK economy and highly trained and contribution to the growth agenda and how the sector is qualified seafarers are instrumental in supporting the best promoted at a national and international level. The UK maritime sector. maritime trade unions will of course have a role to play in this and I look forward to hearing their views at There was no specific outcome or action relating to forthcoming meetings with me in the near future. I am maritime training but there was agreement to joint also aware that the maritime trade unions are in dialogue working across Government and with industry on growth with Department for Transport officials and therefore and promotion of the maritime sector, of which maritime have the opportunity to feed their views in through training is part. officials also. No meetings have been arranged beyond the July. Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the answer of 10 June 2013, Official Report, column 119W, on shipping: training, whether maritime Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport policy issues related to employment of (a) UK and (b) pursuant to the answer of 10 June 2013, Official Report, non-UK seafarers were discussed at the maritime round column 119W, on shipping: training, if he will publish table meeting held in March 2013; and what (i) outcomes the (a) minutes and (b) outcomes of the maritime and (ii) actions in this area were agreed. [160732] round table meeting held in March 2013. [160735]

Stephen Hammond: There was no discussion on policy Stephen Hammond: There are no minutes from the issues relating to the employment of UK and non-UK March round table meeting. seafarers. Outcomes of the meeting included: 1. Agreement to joint working across Government and with Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport industry on growth and promotion of the maritime sector which pursuant to the answer of 10 June 2013, Official Report, includes shipping, ports, marine and business services. column 119W, on shipping: training, what the name 2. Support for London International Shipping Week which was of each attendee at the maritime round table meeting will take place from 9-13 September. This was seen as an excellent in March 2013; what policy issues were discussed; and opportunity to showcase what the UK has to offer and Government, what maritime policy items are proposed for the agenda with Maritime UK, is hosting a Welcome Reception in Lancaster for the meeting scheduled for July 2013. [160733] House as part of the week.

Stephen Hammond: Attendees at the maritime round table held in March included: Transport: Finance Stephen Hammond, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Michael Fallon, Minister of State, Department for Business, what proportion of (a) integrated transport authorities’ Innovation and Skills and (b) passenger transport executives’ (i) spending Richard Sadler, CEO Lloyd’s Register and (ii) budgets is funded from (A) local funding sources Jim Stewart, Chairman, Maritime UK and CEO of Poole and (B) central Government allocations and grants. Harbour Commissioners [160575] Lars Olsson, General Manager of Stena Line Jeremy Penn, Chief Executive, The Baltic Exchange Norman Baker: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Mark Brownrigg—UK Chamber of Shipping given to the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) to question 159417 of 17 June 2013, Sir Alan Massey, Maritime and Coastguard Agency. Official Report, column 530W.This sets out the funding The purpose of the meeting was to discuss: given by the Department for Transport to ITAs/PTEs i. Improved joint working across government and with industry following the 2010 Spending Review. on maritime affairs; As levying bodies, set up by the Local Government ii. Growth and promotion of the maritime sector within the Finance Act 1988 and subsequent regulations, Integrated context of the growth agenda; Transport Authorities are able to set the amount of iii. Cross-government and industry support for London funding they wish to raise from their constituent authorities. International Shipping Week. It is therefore ultimately up to them and their constituent The agenda for the next meeting is still under councils as to what the proportions are between local consideration. and central Government sources. 771W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 772W

Passenger Transport Executives are the executive bodies Framework (NHS OF) ’Ensuring that people have a of integrated transport authorities and, as such, draw positive experience of care’, and NHS England will their funding from their associated integrated transport need to demonstrate progress in improving patients’ authority. experience against the specific outcome indicators in Travel the domain. Although there are no disease specific indicators in this domain, those that are included cover Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for a range of national health service care settings which Transport what recent discussions he has had with the will be relevant to the experiences of cancer patients Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change on across all the Domains of the NHS OF. There are encouraging the use of alternative methods of currently no plans to develop an indicator specific to transportation other than the car when travelling short cancer patient experience in the NHS OF. distances. [160141] ‘Ensuring that people have a positive experience of care’ is also Domain 4 of the Clinical Commissioning Norman Baker: Ministers and officials in the Department Group Outcomes Indicator Set (CCG OIS). The CCG for Transport regularly discuss a variety of matters OIS indicators in this domain, many of which are with their opposite numbers at the Department for shared with the NHS OF,will enable clinical commissioning Energy and Climate Change, but there have been no groups (CCGs) to benchmark themselves on these matters recent discussions with that Department specifically and to inform the setting of local priorities. on encouraging the use of alternative methods of NHS England is committed to encouraging and transportation other than the car when travelling short supporting improvement in cancer patient experience distances. and is therefore considering how best to build the capacity of CCGs and ensure they are held to account. NHS England is considering the role that metrics for HEALTH patient experience might play in the CCG OIS. Accident and Emergency Departments Carers Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many invitations to visit hospital accident Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for and emergency and emergency departments he and his Health if he will estimate the number of people in the Ministers have received since their appointments; and care sector employed on zero hours contracts in each for what dates. [160802] English region. [160783]

Dr Poulter: A search of the Department’s ministerial Norman Lamb: The Department does not collect this correspondence database has identified over 4,000 information centrally. ministerial invitations received since September 2012. It Skills for Care, the Sector Skills Council for social is not possible to identify which of these were invitations care, has provided the following estimates from the to visit national health service trusts or accident and National Minimum Dataset for Social Care (NMDS-SC): emergency departments without incurring disproportionate cost. Estimated number of adult social care workers on zero-hours contracts, by each English region I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave him on Estimated number of workers on 6 June 2013, Official Report, column 1268W, which lists Region zero-hours contracts visits made by the ministerial team to accident and emergency units since their respective dates of appointment. Eastern 41,000 East Midlands 23,000 Cancer London 56,000 North East 17,000 Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for North West 37,000 Health (1) what plans he has to develop a new national South East 50,000 cancer strategy; [160572] South West 27,000 (2) what plans his Department and NHS England West Midlands 30,000 have for the development of new indicators for the Yorkshire and The Humber 27,000 measurement of cancer patient experience. [160573] England 307,000 Anna Soubry: NHS England has responsibility for Source: Skills for Care workforce estimates 2011, NMDS-SC May 2013 cancer services. The latest cancer strategy, Improving Outcomes: A Diabetes: Children Strategy for Cancer, was published in January 2011 and contains the Department’s ambition to ’save 5,000 lives’ Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health per year by 2014-15. This equates to bringing cancer how many children aged up to 18 years in (a) Barnsley survival rates up to the European average. Central constituency, (b) South Yorkshire and (c) At present, NHS England has no plans to develop a England were diagnosed with diabetes in (i) 2010, further national cancer strategy. (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012. [160782] The Mandate to NHS England requires it to deliver continued improvements in relation to patients’ experience Anna Soubry: Information is not collected in the of care, including cancer care. This improvement area format requested. The table shows the number of children corresponds to Domain 4 of the NHS Outcomes up to 18 years (registered in primary and secondary 773W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 774W care) newly diagnosed with diabetes in the Barnsley, Disciplinary Proceedings Doncaster, Rotherham and Sheffield primary care trust (PCT) areas and in England in the latest two years for Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health which data is available. how many staff were suspended from his Department and its associated public bodies on full pay in (a) NDA audit year 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; and what costs Geographical area 2009-10 2010-11 were incurred as a result of such suspensions. [160416] Barnsley PCT 20 14 Doncaster PCT 14 15 Dr Poulter: No officials were suspended on full pay Rotherham PCT 23 18 from the Department during 2010-11, 2011-12 and Sheffield PCT 37 28 2012-13 respectively. England 3,258 3,468 On the basis of the information provided by the Note: Department’s associated public bodies, the following The National Diabetes Audit (NDA), which audits diabetes registrations table shows the total number of staff suspended and the in primary and secondary care, is not mandatory. (NDA does not have 100% coverage or participation and therefore cannot accurately costs incurred for each of the respective years. provide the information required). Source: Number of staff National Diabetes Audit (NDA). suspended on full pay in the Department’s associated public bodies Total costs incurred (£) Diabetes: North West 2010-11 17 179,587 2011-12 9 50,754 2012-13 14 130,577 Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many children began treatment for type-1 Health Services: Barnsley diabetes in (a) Pendle constituency, (b) Lancashire and (c) the North West in each of the last five years. [160353] Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many compromise agreements have been made with NHS employers in Barnsley since 2000; and what Anna Soubry: The information is not available in the the total cost to the public purse was of those format requested. agreements. [160786] Information on the number of children aged up to 18 years, registered in primary and secondary care, that Dr Poulter: The information requested is not held were newly diagnosed with type 1 diabetes in 2009-10 centrally. Such information as is available is as follows. and 2010-11 in the former (a) Blackburn with Darwen primary care trust (PCT), (b) North Lancashire Teaching From 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2013, HM Treasury PCT, (c) Blackpool PCT, (d) Central Lancashire PCT, approved seven non-contractual severance payments to (e) East Lancashire PCT and (f) North West strategic employees of Barnsley NHS employers (excluding health authority (SHA) is shown in the following table. foundation trusts). All seven cases were for Barnsley primary care trust. The value of the approved payments 2009-10 2010-11 totalled £50,554 in this period. Business cases submitted to the Department prior to Blackburn with Darwen 14 11 seeking HM Treasury approval do not include compromise PCT agreements and therefore the use and content of North Lancashire 21 18 Teaching PCT compromise agreements are not routinely monitored. We do not know if any payments were actually paid or, Blackpool PCT 6 — if so, at what cost to the public purse. HM Treasury Central Lancashire PCT 30 29 approval is given for the maximum amount payable, in East Lancashire PCT 28 19 some cases payments are not made at all or can be less North West of England 384 396 than the approved value. SHA Notes: The procedure requiring the submission of business 1. Participation in the National Diabetes Audit (NDA), which audits cases to the Department was introduced from April 2008. diabetes registrations in primary and secondary care, is not mandatory. The NDA does not have 100% coverage or participation and therefore cannot accurately provide the information requested. Hospitals: Food 2. 2011-12 data has not yet been published. The NDA currently only holds data for 2009-10 and 2010-11. 3. Information is not available by constituency. Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for 4. The NDA provides data on the number of children aged up to Health what proportion of meals served by each NHS 18 years that were newly diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, which is provider were recorded as untouched in each year since synonymous to the number of children who began treatment. 2007-08. [160803] 5. To protect patient confidentiality, figures between one and five have been replaced with “—”. Source: Dr Poulter: The information is not available in the The Information Centre for Health and Social Care—National format requested. Such information as is available has Diabetes Audit. been placed in the Library. 775W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 776W

The Department collects data from national health The NHS has seen significant progress in the development service trusts for the percentage of unserved meals, not of apprenticeships in recent years. Health Education untouched, at each NHS provider. This relates to unserved England has an objective in its mandate for 2013-15 to in-patient meals remaining at the end of the meal service increase the number of health care apprentices and will period expressed as a percentage of the total number of work with key delivery organisations such as Skills for meals provided and available at the commencement of Health to achieve this. the meal service period. This does not include information Information on the average wages of apprentices in relating to untouched food which is food served to the NHS is not collected by the Department. Wages for patients but not eaten. Data for 2007-08 was collected apprentices across the sector vary and are subject to. at site level. From 2008-09, this data was collected at local pay decisions. organisation level. Tuberculosis: Immigrants This information has been supplied by the NHS and has not been amended centrally. The accuracy and completeness of the information is the responsibility of Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for the provider organisation. Health what discussions (a) he has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department and (b) officials of his Department have had with officials of the Home NHS 111 Office on implementing screening of prospective UK residents who might have tuberculosis or drug-resistant Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for tuberculosis. [159292] Health what recent assessment he has made of the operation of the 111 number; and if he will make a Anna Soubry: There have been ongoing discussions statement. [160440] between the Home Office, Public Health England and Department of Health officials as part of the Government’s Anna Soubry: A number of new NHS 111 launches in current roll-out of pre-migration tuberculosis screening March did not go as smoothly as planned. Performance for non-European Economic Area nationals applying was of particular concern the weekend before Easter. for visas to enter the United Kingdom for more than six Since Easter, NHS England has put in tighter controls months. I have met the Minister for Immigration, my to improve performance, including ensuring providers hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), are able to answer calls in under 60 seconds. to discuss the wider impact of immigration on the Performance has improved during recent weeks, with national health service of which pre-migration screening the majority of areas now meeting performance targets. was discussed. NHS England continues to work closely with providers and commissioners to resolve any outstanding issues. NHS 111 is now available in over 90% of England, TREASURY and it is planned that the service will be rolled out to the rest of England by October. Banks: Scotland

NHS: Apprentices Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to the statement on page 6 of his Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Department’s publication, Scotland Analysis: Financial how many apprentices are employed in the NHS in (a) Services and Banking, whether the calculation that Barnsley Central constituency, (b) South Yorkshire banks have assets totalling around 1254 per cent of and (c) England; and what the average wage was of a Scotland’s GDP included the assets of RBS Group’s full-time NHS apprentice in the latest period for which Markets Division. [160781] figures are available. [160787] Danny Alexander: As per the answer I gave to the Dr Poulter: Data on the total number of apprentices hon. Member in response to his question on 11 June 2013, employed in the national health service are not collected Official Report, column 227W,firms whose headquarters by the Department. However, data provided by NHS or “principle places of business” are in Scotland are Employers show that the 10 strategic health authorities considered to be Scottish firms for the purpose of this reported 7,894 apprenticeship starts in the NHS in analysis. The analysis was conducted on the basis of England during 2012-13. This updates the answer given separately authorised and registered legal entities within to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve groups, including RBS Group, rather than the group’s Rotheram), on 13 June 2013, Official Report, column 380W. internal governance structures. This figure does not include the number of apprenticeship Developing Countries: Taxation starts within the former London Strategic Health Authority which did not provide its data for the reported period. Sir Tony Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Data from the Yorkshire and Humber Local Education Exchequer what steps he plans to take to ensure that Training Board show that during 2012-13, there were 42 UK-linked tax havens do not enable tax avoidance in apprenticeship starts at Barnsley Hospitals Foundation developing countries. [159890] Trust, and 230 apprenticeship starts across the whole of South Yorkshire. It should be noted that these figures Mr Gauke: We have been working very closely with represent 2012-13 apprenticeship starts and are not the the Crown dependencies and overseas territories. They total number of apprentices currently employed, which have committed to play an active role in the emerging are likely to be considerably higher. new global standard in automatic exchange of tax 777W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 778W information which will be open to all countries, including Sajid Javid: The Mortgage Market Review (MMR) developing countries. We will be working with the OECD rules, published by the Financial Services Authority to ensure that the relevant systems and processes are as (FSA) in October 2012, and due to be implemented in accessible as possible to help enable all countries to April 2014, ensure lenders carry out a robust assessment access this standard. The CDs and OTs with a financial of the affordability of any mortgage for the consumer, centre have in addition committed to join the Multilateral both for interest-only and repayment mortgages. Convention on Mutual Administrative Assistance in The FSA carried out and published a cost-benefit Tax Matters which is also particularly accessible to analysis estimating the impact of the new rules. This developing countries. They have also committed to analysis is available at: producing action plans on beneficial ownership, setting http://www.fca.org.uk/static/documents/policy-statements/fsa- out concrete steps to tackle the misuse of companies ps12-16.pdf and legal arrangements. The Crown dependencies published their action plans on 18 June. Payments: Regulation Economic and Monetary Union Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the progress on his what reports relating to (a) the viability of a common Department’s consultation on Opening Up UK Payments. EU currency and (b) the benefits and disbenefits of [160798] UK participation in such an exercise were commissioned or agreed by his Department (i) at the time of the Sajid Javid: The consultation on ‘Opening up UK signing of the Maastricht Treaty, (ii) on the launch of payments’ closes on 25 June. HM Treasury will then the euro and (iii) at any time afterwards; and if he will review the consultation responses and develop legislation publish any such reports which are within the public to create a new payments regulator. The legislation will domain. [160816] be brought forward via Government amendment to the Banking Reform Bill. Greg Clark: The Coalition programme for government was clear that the Government will ensure: Poverty: Children “that Britain does not join or prepare to join the Euro in this Parliament”. Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer As such, no reports on the above subjects have been what assessment he has made of his Department’s commissioned under the current Government. A number progress on eliminating child poverty by 2020. [160472] of reports on the viability of a common EU currency and the benefits and disbenefits of UK participation have been commissioned and published under past Sajid Javid: The Government remains committed to Governments and a comprehensive selection can be eradicating child poverty. However, the Government found at the following link: strongly believes looking at relative income in isolation is not a helpful measure to track progress towards this. http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20080910134819/ http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/documents/ The Government has therefore held a consultation international_issues/the_euro/euro_index_index.cfm on better measures of child poverty, which include income but also wider measures to tackle the root Income Tax: Scotland causes of poverty including worklessness and educational failure. The consultation has now closed and the Government will respond in due course. Margaret Curran: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether ministers or officials of the Scottish Work remains the best and most immediate way out Government have (a) been involved in the drafting of of poverty and the Budget took action to support and (b) had access to the HM Revenue and Customs families and make the tax and welfare system fairer: risk register for the Scottish Rate of Income Tax including further increasing the income tax personal project. [160799] allowance to take 2.7 million people on low incomes out of tax altogether. Mr Gauke: HMRC’s risk register for the Scottish rate of income tax project is shared with project board Revenue and Customs: Portsmouth members. The Scottish Government is represented on the board and has access to the risk register and the Penny Mordaunt: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer opportunity to contribute to it. The risk register is how many people used the Portsmouth HM Revenue reviewed regularly and updated when required. and Customs enquiry centre in each of the last five years; how many people in each year were repeat users; Mortgages: Government Assistance and how many of each type of enquiry were discussed in each such year. [159881] Julie Hilling: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his Department has made any assessment of Mr Gauke: Some of the information requested is not the extent to which the introduction of the affordability available and could be provided only at disproportionate assessment for mortgages has affected Government cost. However the number of customers who used schemes to help couples (a) with and (b) without HMRC’s Inquiry Centre at Lynx House for each of the children to become home owners. [160504] last five financial years is: 779W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 780W

MEMBERS ESTIMATE COMMITTEE Number

2008-09 22,988 Former Members 2009-10 21,855 2010-11 20,987 John Mann: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, 2011-12 20,973 Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the Members 2012-13 16,767 Estimate Committee, how many former hon. and right hon. Members who lost their seats or did not stand at Royal Bank of Scotland the 2010 General Election and have subsequently been appointed to the House of Lords have paid back any winding-up allowance on leaving the House. [160809] Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent representations he has received John Thurso: The winding-up expenditure allowance on the location of the headquarters of the re-privatised was designed to meet the cost of completing the outstanding Royal Bank of Scotland. [160490] parliamentary duties, and to meet outstanding contractual obligations, of a person who ceased to be a Member of Greg Clark: Treasury Ministers and officials engage Parliament. with a wide variety of organisations in the public and 222 Members stood down or lost their seat at the private sectors, as part of the process of policy development 2010 general election, and total expenditure was just and delivery.As was the case with previous Administrations, over £7 million. The large majority of this was in it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of respect of contractual payments to employees, such as all such meetings and discussions. redundancy pay and pay in lieu of notice. Other expenditure UK Financial Investments Ltd (UKFI) continues to included costs associated with closing down constituency be responsible for managing the Government’s shareholding offices, outstanding utility bills and destruction of in RBS on a commercial and arm’s length basis, and for confidential waste. 97% of winding-up expenditure was advising on a strategy for disposing of the investment in paid directly to employees or suppliers of goods and an orderly and active way. services: The remaining 3%—approximately £230,000—was paid to former Members for costs they had met from Tobacco: Smuggling personal resources and for which they were entitled to reimbursement. Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the No Member has paid back any of the sums paid. Exchequer what assessment he has made of the reasons the tobacco smuggling strategy of HM Revenue and Customs did not meet its operational targets in INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT 2012-13. [160404] Overseas Aid Sajid Javid: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) and Border Force set very stretching internal targets under Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for the ‘Tackling Tobacco Smuggling’ strategy in order to International Development how much of her Department’s continue to drive up operational performance. bilateral aid programmes was spent through (a) the HMRC exceeded internal operational targets in 2011-12 EU, (b) the World Bank, (c) the UN, (d) regional and performance outputs improved further in 2012-13, development banks and (e) other multilateral agencies but fell short of more stretching targets. in (i) 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12 and (iii) 2012-13; and how HMRC and Border Force assess the overall impact of much is planned to be spent in this fashion in 2013-14. the strategy on smuggling through our estimates of the [160795] UK illicit market. Latest estimates indicate the illicit Justine Greening: DFID provides core funding to cigarette market has more than halved since 2000-01— multilateral organisations as well as additional non-core dropping from 21% to 9% in 2010-11, and the hand-rolling funding to deliver particular objectives either in specific tobacco illicit market has reduced from 61% to 38%. sectors or countries. The Department publishes in Statistics in International Development the total amount of the Welfare Tax Credits bilateral aid programme spent through multilateral organisations. This is available online at: Dan Jarvis: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer http://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statistics-on- what steps he is taking to improve the support given to international-development claimants of tax credits by HM Revenue and Customs Information for 2012-13 will be published in autumn (a) in writing and (b) through its helpline. [160785] 2013, and information for 2014-15 will be published in autumn 2014. Mr Gauke: The Government notes the recommendation in the recent report of the Committee of Public Accounts Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for (HMRC: tax credits error and fraud (HC 135)) that International Development how much of her Department’s HMRC should systematically review the guidance and multilateral aid programme was disbursed as central or support it provides to tax credits claimants in order to core funding to (a) the EU, (b) the World Bank, (c) identify and address areas where improvements are the UN, (d) regional development banks and (e) other required. The Government is currently considering the multilateral agencies in (i) 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12 and (iii) committee’s report and will respond formally in due 2012-13; and how much is expected to be disbursed in course. this fashion in 2013-14. [160796] 781W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 782W

Justine Greening: Details of DFID multilateral looking after Iran’s interests here in the UK and the expenditure are published in Table 18 of the ’Statistics Swedish embassy in Tehran looks after the UK’s interests on International Development’ 2012 which is available in Iran. online at: In order to consider reopening the Iranian embassy http://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statistics-on- in London or the British embassy in Tehran, we would international-development have to be very confident of a change in the Iranian Information for 2012-13 will be published in autumn Government’s approach, most importantly to the safety 2013, and information for 2014-15 will be published in and security of our staff. autumn 2014. Turkey

Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE representations he has made to his Turkish counterpart on protests and violence in that country. [159976] Accountancy Mr Hague: I discussed the recent developments in Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Turkey with Ahmet Davutoglu, the Turkish Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many officials Minister on 11 June and encouraged a peaceful resolution. in his Department are currently seconded to any of the The Minister for Europe, my right hon. Friend the four largest accountancy firms; and what the (a) job Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington), made the same title and (b) pay grade is of each such secondee. points to the Turkish EU Affairs Minister, Egemen [160115] Bagis on 13 June. We will continue to follow events closely. Alistair Burt: According to our records, none of our Freedom of expression and assembly are important staff are currently on outward secondment to the big rights in any democracy. We welcome statements from four accountancy firms. We have interpreted ‘the four the Turkish Government recognising that some of the largest accountancy firms’ to mean staff seconded concerns raised by the protestors are legitimate. to KPMG, Ernst and Young, Deloitte and Price WaterhouseCooper. Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what requests for assistance UK embassies and consulates in Turkey Iran have received from British nationals in that country. [159977] Mrs Glindon: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has received Mr Hague: Our embassy and consulates around Turkey on the official policy of the Iranian government to deny have so far received three requests from British nationals employment to citizens if they identify themselves as requesting consular assistance since the beginning of members of the Baha’i faith community; and if he will the recent demonstrations and disturbances in Turkey. make a statement. [160488] Two related to an arrest or fear of being arrested and one asking for assistance travelling from their hotel to Alistair Burt: I am aware of reports from the Baha’i the airport. None required intervention by consular Community in the UK and the UN Special Rapporteur, staff. Dr Ahmed Shaheed about the Iranian regime’s persecution We continue to advise anyone wishing to travel to of the Baha’i, as well as a United Nations report from Turkey to read the Foreign and Commonwealth Office 1993 which refers to a ’secret’ Iranian memorandum on Travel Advice. blocking the ’progress’ and ’development’ of the Baha’i and denying them positions of influence, access to higher education and employment. The British Government DEFENCE has repeatedly and publicly expressed its serious concern at the persecution of the Baha’i’s and I call again on Armed Forces Iran to cease this; and for Iran to respect all its citizens’ rights to freedom of religion and belief. Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many individual education and Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for resettlement officers there have been in each of the last Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make it three years; [159517] his policy that the Iranian government be allowed to (2) how much his Department spent on individual reopen its embassy in London. [160564] education and resettlement officers in each of the last three years; and how much funding he plans to allocate Alistair Burt: We were forced to close the British in each of the next five years. [159519] embassy in Tehran following the invasion of our diplomatic compounds, which was against every provision of the Mr Francois: The Army has 26 Individual Education Vienna Convention and every principle of civilised and Resettlement Officer (IERO) posts. Aside from behaviour regarding the treatment of diplomats. In recruiting gaps, this number has been constant for the response, we reduced our diplomatic relations with Iran past three years. In order to cover the additional volume to the lowest level possible, short of severing ties. The of service leavers under the compulsory redundancy embassy of the Sultanate of Oman in London is currently scheme, a further seven IEROs were recruited on a 783W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 784W temporary basis to cover Tranche 2 in 2012. These Mr Francois: The number of civilian staff who have seven were augmented by an additional seven in 2013 to spent some part of the financial year (FY) suspended cover Tranche 3 of the redundancy programme. The on full pay is set out in the following table: temporary posts will not last beyond June 2015. Based on current capitation rates, the steady state Financial year Number of staff suspended cost for the 26 established posts is some £1.03 million 2010-11 175 per annum. For financial year (FY) 2012-13 this figure 2011-12 165 increased by some £275,000 to accommodate the uplift 2012-13 160 in IEROs for Tranche 2 of the Compulsory Redundancy Programme, and by some £550,000 in FY 2013-14 for Tranche 3. Spending will remain at this level for FY The costs requested are not held in the format requested 2014-15 and will then reduce once the redundancy and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. programme has been completed. Steady state funding from 2015 onwards will remain Military Attaches at approximately £1 million per annum, though this may reduce as the number of IEROs is adjusted to reflect the Army 2020 structure. Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the name is of each diplomatic post to Armed Forces: Qualifications which the UK assigned a defence attaché in (a) 2008, (b) 2009, (c) 2010, (d) 2011 and (e) 2012. [160794] Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the average length of service before attaining Dr Murrison: The following table shows, for January level 2 qualifications was in the (a) Army, (b) Royal each year, the Defence attaché posts resident in each Navy and (c) Royal Air Force in the most recent period country.It does not include any non-resident accreditations for which figures are available. [160792] held by these posts. Support staff are not included.

Mr Francois: I refer the right hon. Member to the Diplomatic posts which the UK has assigned a DA January 2008 to answer given by the Minister for the Armed Forces, my January 2012 right hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire Appointment 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 (Mr Robathan), on 21 May 2013, Official Report, column Afghanistan—Kabul 717W. DA 11111 Commonwealth War Graves Commission Albania—Tirana John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for DA 1 1— Defence what discussions he and his ministerial colleagues have held regarding the possible privatisation of the Algeria—Algiers/Tunis Commonwealth War Graves Commission in the last DA 11111 year. [160187]

Mr Francois [holding answer 17 June 2013]: There Argentina—Buenos have been no discussions concerning the possible Aires privatisation of the Commonwealth War Graves DAMANA 11111 Commission. AA 1 2— DDA 1 1 Conditions of Employment Australia—Canberra Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence D/N ADV HD BDLS 1 1111 how many staff were retained on zero-hour contracts MAdv/AAdv 11111 by (a) his Department and (b) the executive agencies and non-departmental public bodies for which he is responsible in (i) 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12 and (iii) 2012-13; Austria—Vienna and Regional Hub and if he will make a statement. [160765] DA 11111 Mr Francois: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I DA2 11111 gave on 30 January 2013, Official Report, column 802W, ADA 11111 to the hon. Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott). The Ministry of Defence has never employed Austria—Vienna—UK staff on this form of contract. Delegation to Organisation for Disciplinary Proceedings Security Cooperation in Europe SMA ——111 Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many staff were suspended from his Department and its associated public bodies on full pay in (a) Bahrain—Manama 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; and what costs DA 11111 were incurred as a result of such suspensions. [160410] 785W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 786W

Diplomatic posts which the UK has assigned a DA January 2008 to Diplomatic posts which the UK has assigned a DA January 2008 to January 2012 January 2012 Appointment 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 Appointment 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Baltic States—Estonia DA ——111Egypt—Cairo DAMA 1111 Bangladesh—Dhaka DDA 1 1 DA 11111 Ethiopia—Addis Barbados—Bridgetown Ababa DAdv 1 1 1— DA 1111

Bosnia and Finland—Helsinki Herzegovina—Sarajevo DA 1 1 1— DA 11111

France—Paris Brazil—Brasilia DA 11111 DAMAAA 11111DeputyDA 11111 MA 1 1 2— Brunei—Bandar Seri Begawan Georgia-Tbilisi DAdv 11111 DA 11111

Bulgaria—Sofia Germany—Berlin DA 1 1 1— DA 11111 MA 1 1 1 2— Canada—Ottawa DeputyDA 11111 DAdvMAdv 11111 NAdvAAdv 11111 Ghana—Accra Staff Officer BDLS 1 1 1 1 DADV 11111

Chile-Santiago Greece—Athens DAMAAA 11111 NA AA 1 2— DAMA 11111 China—Beijing

DAMA 11111Guatemala— NAAA 11111Guatemala City ADA 11111DA 1 1— DA 1 2— India—New Delhi Colombia—Bogota DAdvMAdv 1 1 1 — — DA 11111NAdvAAdv 1 1 1 — — Asst to DA 1 1 1 2— Congo, Democratic AMAdvBLO — — — 1 1 Republic of, (DRC)— Kinshasa Indonesia-Jakarta DA 11113— DA 11111

Croatia—Zagreb Iraq—Baghdad DA 1 1— DA 11111 DDA ——111 Cyprus—Nicosia DAdv 11111 Israel—Tel Aviv DA 11111 Czech Republic— DeputyDA 11111 Prague DA 11111 Italy—Rome DAMA 11111 Denmark— Copenhagen NAAA 11111 DANAMAAA11111 787W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 788W

Diplomatic posts which the UK has assigned a DA January 2008 to Diplomatic posts which the UK has assigned a DA January 2008 to January 2012 January 2012 Appointment 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 Appointment 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Jamaica—Kingston Oman—Muscat DAdv 11111DAMA 11111 NAAA 11111 Japan—Tokyo DANA 11111Pakistan—Islamabad DAdvMAdv 11111 Jordan—Amman NAdvAAdv 11111 DAMANA 11111ADA 11111 AA 11111AssttoMAdv——111

Kazakhastan—Astana Poland—Warsaw DA 11111DAAA 11111 MA NA 1 1 1 2—

Kenya—Nairobi Portugal—Lisbon DAdv 11111 1 MABLO ——111DA MA NA AA 1 —

Korea—Seoul Qatar—Doha DAMA 11111DA 11111 NA AA 1 2— Romania—Bucharest Kuwait—Kuwait City - DA 11111 DA 11111 Russia—Moscow Lebanon—Beirut DAAA 11111 DA 11111NA 11111 MA 1 1 2— ANA 11111 Lithuania—Vilnius AMA 11111 DA 1 1 1— AAA 1 1 1 2—

Macedonia—Skopje Saudi Arabia—Riyadh DA 1 4— DAMA 11111 DeputyDA(AANA)11111 Malaysia—Kuala Lumpur Serbia—Belgrade DAdv 11111 DA 11111 Morocco—Rabat DA 11111Sierra Leone— Freetown DA 11111 Nepal—Kathmandu DA 11111 Singapore—Singapore City Netherlands—The DAdv 11111 Hague ADARNLO 11111 DANA 11111

Slovak Republic— New Zealand— Bratislava Wellington DA 1 1— DAdv&HdBDS11111

Nigeria—Abuja Somalia—Nairobi (Shadow Embassy DAdv 11111based in Kenya) DA ———11 Norway—Oslo DANA 11111South Africa—Pretoria DAdvMAdv 11111 789W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 790W

Diplomatic posts which the UK has assigned a DA January 2008 to Diplomatic posts which the UK has assigned a DA January 2008 to January 2012 January 2012 Appointment 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 Appointment 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

NAdvAAdv 11111 Zimbabwe—Harare Spain—Madrid DA 11111 DANA 111111 Defence section closed. DDA 1 2— 2 Post disestablished. 3 Closed March 2012. 4 Defence section closed and post merged with DA2 Austria. Sri Lanka—Colombo 5 Temp closed from April 2012. DAdv 1 1 1— Key: DA: Defence Attaché ADA: Acting Defence Attaché Sudan—Khartoum DDA: Deputy Defence Attaché NA: Naval Attaché DA 11111 MA: Military Advisor AA: Air Attaché Sweden—Stockholm A Adv: Air Advisor ANA: Assistant Naval Attaché DAAA 11111AMA: Assistant Military Attaché AAA: Assistant Air Attaché Syria—Damascus SMA: Senior Military Attaché BDLS: British Defence Liaison Staff DA 11115— BLO: British Liaison Officer RNLO: Royal Navy Liaison Officer Thailand—Bangkok DA 1 1— Nuclear Weapons Turkey—Ankara DAMA 11111 NAAA 11111Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what assessment he has made of recent Uganda—Kampala reports of problems encountered during Exercise Senator 2011; [160810] DAdv 11111 (2) from where nuclear experts are dispatched in case of a major nuclear incident involving the transportation Ukraine—Kyiv of nuclear warheads; [160811] DAMANAAA11111 AMABLO ——111(3) what the target time is for the arrival of nuclear experts from Abbey Wood to the scene of a major incident involving the transportation of nuclear United Arab warheads. [160812] Emirates—Abu Dhabi DA 11111 Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) carries United States of out regular nuclear safety exercises with other agencies America—Washington to test robustly emergency plans and to identify areas DA&HdBDS(US)11111for improvement. The Defence Nuclear Safety Regulator’s NA 11111assessment was clear that during Exercise Senator 2011 MA 11111the MOD demonstrated its ability to cope in the highly AA 11111unlikely event of an emergency. I have accepted this DDA Royal Marine 11111assessment and work is ongoing to address its findings. Attaché Each convoy is commanded by a senior MOD Police AMA 11111Officer who would therefore be on the scene to direct AAA 11111events in the unlikely event of an accident. In that event he would become the MOD Incident Commander. United States of Appropriately qualified MOD personnel from DE&S America—UK Mission headquarters in Bristol would be dispatched to the to UN New York accident location by helicopter. Experts from other MA 11111organisations would also provide support, including the AMA 11111Atomic Weapons Establishment, Institute of Naval Medicine and Defence Science and Technology Laboratory.

Uzbekistan—Tashkent The aim of appropriately qualified MOD personnel DA ———11is to arrive on the scene as soon as possible. Due to the range of possible locations involved, the target of four hours applies to the time within which they should be Yemen—Sana’a ready to deploy from Bristol. This was achieved in DA 11111Exercise Senator 2011. 791W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 792W

Reviews Jeremy Wright: The electronic monitoring contracts held by G4S and Serco in England and Wales have Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for provisions for the authority to seek remedy through: Defence when each review currently undertaken by his (a) service credits if the Service Provider fails to provide the Department will (a) conclude and (b) publish. Services in accordance with the Service Levels of the contract [160253] (b) recovery of sums due under the agreement resulting from issues linked to non-delivery. Mr Francois [holding answer 17 June 2013]: We are Both contractors are currently being audited and delivering one of the most ambitious transformation while this is ongoing it would be inappropriate to disclose programmes undertaken. Progress is reported to Parliament this. through the Ministry of Defence Annual Report and Accounts, the Prime Minister’s annual report on Members: Correspondence implementation of the National Security Strategy and Strategic Defence and Security Review, and Lord Levene’s Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for annual report to the Secretary of State for Defence on Justice when the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of progress implementing the recommendations of his Defence State for Justice will reply to the letter from the hon. Reform Review. We also publish a monthly update on Members for Houghton and Sunderland South and for progress against our Business Plan objectives on the Sunderland Central of 20 March 2013. [160194] No 10 website: http://transparency.number10.gov.uk/ Jeremy Wright: I can confirm that a response was under this Government’s initiative to increase transparency. sent to the hon. Member in response to her letter dated In line with the new Defence Operating Model much 20 March 2013. The response was dated 22 April 2013 of the wide-ranging work to transform defence is being and a copy of the letter was sent to her office based in taken forward locally by the relevant delegated authorities. the House of Commons. Prisoners: Older People

JUSTICE Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice for what reasons prisoners of retirement age receive a Courts: Children weekly payment of £3.25. [159625] Jeremy Wright: Convicted prisoners are not entitled Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice to claim any state benefits while they are in prison and how many children in Essex were required to testify this includes the state retirement pension. Prisoners against a defendant in court in the last 12 months. above state retirement age are not normally required to [159984] work although they may choose to do so, and will be paid if they do. The Solicitor-General: I have been asked to reply. Prisoners pay policy, including minimum pay rates is The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) maintains a set out in Prison Service Order 4460 Prisoners Pay. A record of the number of child witnesses through the payment of £3.25 is made to prisoners above state CPS Witness Management System (WMS). The WMS retirement age who do not work. This helps them meet is a purpose built electronic system designed to enable day to day expenses such as access to PIN phone credit Witness Care Unit (WCU) staff to identify cases involving and postage costs for letters in order to maintain family children and other vulnerable witnesses and hence enable ties. They may also make purchases from the prison the proper management of issues arising in these cases. canteen and facilities list. WMS is not intended to provide a definitive record of the number of victims and witnesses falling into these categories. In the period April 2012 to March 2013, CPS Essex EDUCATION recorded 757 witnesses under 18 years of age and, of these, 207 were required to attend court. It should be Conditions of Employment noted that the CPS does not record in WMS whether a witness who attended court actually gave evidence or not. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many staff were retained on zero-hour contracts by (a) his Department and (b) the executive Electronic Tagging agencies and non-departmental public bodies for which he is responsible in (i) 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12 and (iii) Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [160766] (1) what criteria he uses to calculate fines for non-delivery by private sector providers on each electronic monitoring Elizabeth Truss: The Department and its executive contract; [160080] agencies did not employ any staff on zero hour contracts (2) what fines have been ordered against each in 2010-11, 2011-12 or 2012-13. company in relation to each electronic monitoring The Department does not hold this information about contract in each of the last five years. [160081] its non-departmental public bodies. 793W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 794W

National Curriculum Tests Schools: Lancashire

Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Education under what curricular students ending Key (1) how much funding was given to schools in Rossendale Stage 2 in 2014 will be (a) taught and (b) assessed. to spend on improving PE and sport in the latest period [160780] for which figures are available; [160546] (2) how much funding was given to schools in Elizabeth Truss: Pupils in Year 6 during the 2013/14 Blackburn with Darwen to spend on improving PE and academic year will be taught and assessed against the sport in the latest period for which figures are available. current national curriculum in English, mathematics [160547] and science. Under proposals to disapply parts of the national curriculum in 2013/14, schools will be able to Mr Timpson: As part of their core provision all decide whether to continue with, or depart from, current state-funded schools receive funding to provide a broad programmes of study for the foundation subjects1. and balanced curriculum which includes PE. 1 Art and design, citizenship, computing, design and technology, The Secretary of State has also allocated an additional history, geography, languages, music and PE. £65 million in funding to state schools with at least 20 School Meals secondary aged pupils for the academic years 2011/12 and 2012/13 under the secondary teacher release scheme. This funding provides for the release of a specialist PE Gavin Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for teacher one day each week to create more opportunities Education how much is spent on daily school lunches for competitive sport. for each student in the UK; and how much is brought Under this scheme, schools in Blackburn with Darwen in through purchasing each day. [160347] received a total of £98,800 in 2012/13. Schools in Rossendale and Darwen constituency received £15,200 in 2012/13. Elizabeth Truss: The cost of school meals is met through a combination of money allocated from individual On 16 March the Prime Minister announced a schools’ budgets and payments made by parents purchasing further £150 million per year in new, cross-Government meals for their children. The Department does not funding for improving PE and sport in schools for collect this information and therefore cannot provide academic years 2013/14 and 2014/15. This funding will an estimate on the total cost, or the amount brought in be made available to all maintained schools with primary through purchasing. aged pupils and will be ring-fenced with schools required to spend it on improving their provision of PE and The Department for Education’s responsibility extends sport. The amount of funding allocated to each school only to schools in England. will be determined by the number of primary-aged The Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. pupils. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), asked Henry Dimbleby and John Vincent, the co-founders Special Educational Needs of Leon restaurants, to lead an independent review of school food across England. They have been developing a School Food Plan which looks at good practice across Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for the UK and abroad. The review will report soon. Education what the total number of children is in each local authority area; how many such children are Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Education classified under (a) School Action and (b) School (1) what guidance his Department provides to schools Action Plus; how many have Special Educational on school meals and the collection of payments from Needs (SEN) statements; and how many SEN tribunals parents for such meals; [160716] were requested and how many SEN tribunals were actually commenced in the last year for which data are (2) what statutory responsibilities there are on schools available. [160494] for the provision of school meals. [160717] Mr Timpson: We have interpreted the request for the Elizabeth Truss: The Education Act 2002 requires total number of children in each local authority to school governing bodies to provide school lunches for mean the total number of pupils. A table setting out pupils where a meal is requested, and either the pupil is information on the number of pupils attending schools eligible for free school lunches, or it would not be in each local authority as well as the number with unreasonable for lunches to be provided. Information statements of special educational needs (SEN), the and guidance is available on the Children’s Food Trust number at School Action Plus and the number at School website1. Action has been placed in the House Libraries. This It is for individual schools to decide how to collect information can also be found in the publication ’Special payments from parents. Educational Needs in England, January 2012’ available The Secretary of State has asked Henry Dimbleby on the government website.1 and John Vincent, the co-founders of Leon restaurants, HM Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) administers to lead independent work to review school food across appeals to the First-tier Tribunal Special Educational the country. Needs and Disability (FtT SEND). Statistics regarding Further details on the school food review can be the FtT SEND are reported against each academic found on the Department for Education website2. year. 1 http://www.childrensfoodtrust.org.uk/ The following table shows the total number of appeals 2 http://www.education.gov.uk/schoolfoodplan registered with HMCTS for the 2011-12 academic year 795W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 796W by local authorities in England. FtT SEND does not First-tier tribunal (special educational needs and disability) appeals publish statistics on the numbers of actual hearings registered per local authority, 1 September to 31 August commenced. Local authority Appeals registered 2011-12 1 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/special-educational- Hounslow 13 needs-in-england-january-2012 Isle of Wight 19 First-tier tribunal (special educational needs and disability) appeals Isles of Scilly 0 registered per local authority, 1 September to 31 August Islington 5 Local authority Appeals registered 2011-12 Kensington and Chelsea 22 Barking and Dagenham 25 Kent 180 Barnet 33 Kingston upon Thames 13 Barnsley 8 Kingston-upon-Hull, City 16 Bath and NE Somerset — Kirklees 12 Bedfordshire — Knowsley — Bexley 36 Lambeth 27 Birmingham 100 Lancashire 80 Blackburn 0 Leeds 15 Blackpool — Leicester City 18 Bolton — Leicestershire 23 Bournemouth — Lewisham 58 Bracknell Forest 8 Lincolnshire 27 Bradford 19 Liverpool 17 Brent 30 Luton — Brighton and Hove 44 Manchester 28 Bristol City 29 Medway 35 Bromley 49 Merton 13 Buckinghamshire 33 Middlesbrough — Bury 5 Milton Keynes 13 Calderdale — Newcastle upon Tyne — Cambridgeshire 51 Newham 28 Camden 16 Newport 0 Central Bedfordshire 11 Norfolk 69 Cheshire East 24 North East Lincolnshire 5 Cheshire West and Chester 5 North Lincolnshire — Cornwall 19 North Somerset 30 Coventry 6 North Tyneside 5 Croydon 54 North Yorkshire 7 Cumbria 26 Northamptonshire 36 Darlington — Northumberland 13 Derby City 20 Nottingham City 19 Derbyshire 57 Nottinghamshire 30 Devon 33 Oldham 18 Doncaster 7 Oxfordshire 14 Dorset 7 Peterborough 5 Dudley 7 Plymouth — Durham 34 Poole — Ealing 56 Portsmouth 6 East Riding of Yorkshire 8 Reading 8 East Sussex 51 Redbridge 28 Enfield 72 Redcar and Cleveland — Essex 160 Richmond upon Thames 11 Gateshead 7 Rochdale — Gloucestershire 37 Rotherham 5 Greenwich 34 Rutland — Hackney 59 Salford 21 Halton — Sandwell 12 Hammersmith and Fulham 19 Sefton 14 Hampshire 110 Sheffield 54 Haringey 26 Shropshire — Harrow 21 Slough 7 Hartlepool 0 Solihull 15 Havering 10 Somerset 31 Herefordshire 9 South Gloucestershire 5 Hertfordshire 110 South Tyneside 5 Hillingdon 26 Southampton 28 797W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 798W

First-tier tribunal (special educational needs and disability) appeals The TA also regularly puts male graduates in touch registered per local authority, 1 September to 31 August with a range of inspirational male primary teachers, to Local authority Appeals registered 2011-12 get an insight into teachers’ motivations, career choices, Southend 13 challenges and the rewards of day-to-day life in a classroom. Southwark 34 St Helens — Staffordshire 49 Stockport 12 ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Stockton-on-Tees 10 Stoke-on-Trent 15 Suffolk 65 Billing Sunderland — Surrey 140 John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Sutton 45 and Climate Change what assessment his Department Swindon 9 has made of the savings it could achieve by paying its Tameside 8 suppliers early in return for rebates. [161053] Telford and Wrekin 16 Thurrock 12 Gregory Barker: The Department aims to pay its Torbay — suppliers quickly to assist small business and promote Tower Hamlets 7 the economy. Suppliers are encouraged to be innovative Trafford 14 in their thinking when preparing bids and to provide Wakefield — any suggestions and solutions that may provide a more Walsall 8 cost efficient and value for money solution. Waltham Forest 24 Contracts of the Department, state that payment Wandsworth 38 shall normally be paid within 30 days. Although our Warrington 7 target is to pay invoices within 30 days, typically invoices Warwickshire 19 are paid within five days. The Department publishes West Berkshire 6 these statistics, please see the following link: West Sussex 33 https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-of- Westminster 13 energy-climate-change/about/procurement#prompt-payments Wigan — The Department, gains value for money by competing Wiltshire 46 work among a number of suppliers, using market forces Windsor and Maidenhead 12 to provide the best possible rates for its work. Wirral 9 Wokingham 9 Wolverhampton 0 Electricity: Scotland Worcestershire 38 York City — Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent discussions or Total 3,600 correspondence he has had with (a) Ministers or ’—’ denotes small value suppressed to protect confidentiality. officials in the Scottish Government, (b) Ofgem, (c) Source: Scottish Hydro-Electric Transmission Ltd and (d) HMCTS. Comhairle nan Eilean Siar regarding the construction Teachers of the sub-sea interconnector between Gravir and Ullapool. [160667] Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what steps he is taking to achieve gender Michael Fallon: Details of meetings between Ministers balance in teaching in primary and lower schools. and external organisations are published quarterly on [160640] the Departmental website at: Mr Laws: The Government has made it clear that it https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-of- would like to see the proportion of male trainees growing energy-climate-change/series/ministers-meeting-with-external- over time. The most recent Initial Teacher training organisations (ITT) census in November 2012 showed a record number Letters to Ministers concerning the transmission link and percentage of male graduates entering ITT. to the Western Isles this year were received from David The proportion of qualified male teaching staff in Gardner, Director of Transmission at Scottish Hydro nursery and primary (including lower) education increased Electricity Transmission plc on 22 January and Fergus from 16% to 19% between 2010 and 2011. Workforce Ewing, Scottish Government Minister for Energy, figures for 2012 are not yet available. Enterprise and Tourism on 5 March and 12 April. In July 2012 the Teaching Agency (TA) launched the Replies to the first two letters were sent on 14 February Primary Experience Programme, which allowed male and 12 March and the last was discussed at a meeting graduates interested in primary teacher training to have involving my officials on 29 April. 10 days’ work experience in a school. 1,000 places have In addition my officials have been in regular contact been made available in schools across the country and with all these organisations about this transmission the programme’s impact is currently being assessed by link, including at meetings of the Scottish Islands the National College for Teaching and Leadership. Renewables Group. 799W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 800W

Energy: Meters Cash average annual payment (£)

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy 2008-09 411.18 and Climate Change how the introduction of smart 2009-10 482.86 meters in domestic properties will be funded. [160563] 2010-11 523.78 2011-12 524.92 Gregory Barker: Energy suppliers will continue to be 2012-13 553.42 responsible for purchasing and installing meters. Similarly, under current arrangements consumers pay for the cost The value of the solid fuel entitlements provided of their metering and meter maintenance through their under DECC’s obligations is linked to a combination of energy bills, and this will be the same for smart metering. inflators depending on the fuel products (December Taking into account the range of costs and benefits rates) also applied annually to contract prices from arising from the roll-out of smart metering, we expect April onwards each year. the average dual fuel household to realise an annual bill The average annual tonnage of solid fuel entitlements saving of around £24 by 2020. over the last five years are as follows:

Fuel Poverty: Greater Manchester Fuel average annual tonnes 2008-09 4.152 Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy 2009-10 4.151 and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the 2010-11 4.147 proportion of households in (a) Greater Manchester 2011-12 4.149 and (b) Bolton classified as fuel poor. [160947] 2012-13 4.153

Gregory Barker: In 2011, the proportion of households estimated to be in fuel poverty in Greater Manchester Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for county was 16.6% and in Bolton local authority 16.3%. Energy and Climate Change how many households in receipt of entitlements under the national concessionary These figures are based on the 10% measure of fuel fuel scheme received (a) solid fuel and (b) a cash poverty, i.e. households are deemed to be in fuel poverty allowance in each of the last 10 years. [160338] if they need to spend more than 10% of their income on fuel in order to achieve an adequate level of warmth. Michael Fallon: The following table shows the number of households in receipt of concessionary fuel entitlements Geothermal Power under DECC’s obligations for the National Concessionary Fuel Scheme over the last 10 years, broken down into Sarah Newton: To ask the Secretary of State for cash in lieu and solid fuel beneficiaries. Energy and Climate Change when the Deep Geothermal Please note that beneficiaries in nursing home care Review Study, which he has commissioned from Atkins have also been included as part of the total numbers. Global, will be published. [160470] Fuel Cash Total Gregory Barker: DECC expects to receive and publish the report by the middle of summer. 1 April: 2003 45,289 86,869 132,158 Mining: Allowances 2004 37,901 86,725 124,626 2005 31,589 86,162 117,751 2006 27,187 84,266 111,453 Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 23,623 81,105 104,728 Energy and Climate Change what the average annual 2008 20,658 77,821 98,479 payment has been to households in receipt of entitlements 2009 18,304 73,802 92,106 under the national concessionary fuel scheme in the last 2010 16,338 70,135 86,473 five years. [160336] 2011 14,410 66,194 80,604 2012 12,802 62,259 75,061 Michael Fallon: Under the terms of the DECC’s 2013 11,574 58,845 70,419 obligations for the National Concessionary Fuel Agreements originally entered into by British Coal, beneficiaries can receive entitlements of solid fuel or Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for cash in lieu and they can move from cash to fuel and Energy and Climate Change how many households in vice versa as many times as they want. The majority of (a) the UK and (b) each parliamentary constituency beneficiaries now receive their entitlement as cash in have received entitlements under the national concessionary lieu. fuel scheme in each of the last 10 years. [160339] The value of the cash in lieu entitlements is subject to annual increases linked to the RPI Heat and Light Michael Fallon: The following table shows the total index (July rate) applied from October onwards each number of households in receipt of concessionary fuel year. under DECC’s obligations for the National Concessionary The average annual payments of cash in lieu over the Fuel Scheme, broken down into cash in lieu and fuel last five years are as follows: beneficiaries. 801W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 802W

Michael Fallon: Renewable electricity generation from As at 1 April: Fuel Cash Total large-scale onshore wind and solar photovoltaic (PV) 2003 45,289 86,869 132,158 plants is supported through the Renewables Obligation, 2004 37,901 86,725 124,626 while support for small-scale generation is available 2005 31,589 86,162 117,751 through the Feed-in Tariff scheme. The support levels 2006 27,187 84,266 111,453 for each scheme are shown in the tables and links, and 2007 23,623 81,105 104,728 are given for financial years. 2008 20,658 77,821 98,479 Renewables Obligation 2009 18,304 73,802 92,106 Number of Renewable Obligation Certificates per 2010 16,338 70,135 86,473 Megawatt Hour of renewable generation 2011 14,410 66,194 80,604 Technology 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2012 12,802 62,259 75,061 Onshore 111 2013 11,574 58,845 70,419 wind Solar PV 2 2 2 We do not have information by parliamentary constituency as the entitlement management database used by the Department’s contractor does not hold Feed-in Tariffs beneficiary information by constituency as it is not The original tariffs available for onshore wind and required for operational delivery of the scheme. solar PV during 2010-11 are set out in the following table: Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate his Department Technology Scale Tariff (p/kWh) Year 1: has made of the number of households in receipt of 1 April 2010 to entitlements under the national concessionary fuel scheme 31 March 2011 in each of the next five years. [160340] PV =4 kW (new build) 36.1 PV =4 kW (retrofit) 41.3 Michael Fallon: The table shows the number of PV >4-10kW 36.1 households in receipt of concessionary fuel entitlements PV >10-100kW 31.4 for which DECC is responsible under the obligations PV >100kW-5MW 29.3 arising from the 1994 Coal Industry Act over the last PV Stand alone 29.3 five years, broken down into cash in lieu and solid fuel Wind =1.5kW 34.5 beneficiaries. Wind >1.5-15kW 26.7 Please note that beneficiaries in Nursing Home care Wind >15-I00kW 24.1 have also been included as part of the total numbers. Wind >100-500kW 18.8 Wind >500kW-1.5MW 9.4 Fuel Cash Total Wind >1.5MW-5MW 4.5 2013-14 10,771 56,768 67,539 2014-15 9,258 52,627 61,885 In 2011-12 and 2012-13 there were a number of changes to tariffs, details of which are published on 2015-16 7,924 48,530 56,454 Ofgem’s webpage: 2016-17 6,753 44,507 51,260 2017-18 5,729 40,589 46,318 http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainability/Environment/fits/ad/ Pages/ad.aspx 2018-19 4,836 36,803 41,639 More recent tariffs (from 1 August 2012) are also published by Ofgem: Nuclear Power http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainability/Environment/fits/ tariff-tables/Pages/index.aspx

Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many individuals Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made who have worked on the Government’s nuclear policy of the cost per unit of energy for the total of solar have been made redundant since 2010. [160793] panels and wind turbines in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012. [159404] Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) was created in October 2008. Michael Fallon: The costs of generation for solar PV DECC is one of the smallest Departments in Whitehall and wind turbines for 2009-10 to 2012-13 were estimated (less than 1,700 staff) and has not made any of its civil when banding was introduced to the renewables obligation servants redundant since its inception. in 2009. The costs for offshore wind turbines were reviewed again in 2010 when the level of support was increased to 2ROCs/MWh. Cost assumptions for all Renewable Energy technologies were updated during the recent banding review for the period 2013-17 and can be accessed here: Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/renewables- Energy and Climate Change what government subsidies obligation-banding-review were for (a) onshore wind and (b) solar panels in (i) https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/solar-pv- 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012. [159403] banded-support-levels 803W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 804W

In 2012, the cost assumptions for solar PV were I was also impressed by the efforts of community updated and can be accessed here: projects on my recent visit to Lancashire to see the https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/feed-in-tariffs- Broadband for the Rural North (B4RN) project and first-phase-of-a-comprehensive-review would like to thank both my hon. Friend the Member The wind turbine cost assumptions were updated and for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) for can be accessed here: inviting me and Barry Ford from B4RN for taking time https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/tariffs-for-non- to explain the project. pv-technologies-comprehensive-review-phase-2b Arts Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change when he will next review Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Government’s policy on subsidising wind turbines Culture, Media and Sport what recent meetings she has and solar panels. [159409] had with local enterprise partnerships to discuss the arts and the creative industries. [159631] Michael Fallon: Support for large-scale wind and solar PV generating stations was reviewed as part of the Mr Vaizey [holding answer 17 June 2013]: All external comprehensive banding review of the renewables obligation meetings, including those with LEPs, are published on (RO). This review set support rates for 2013-17. The the departmental website in accordance with Cabinet latest UK onshore wind costs were further examined Office guidelines: during the call for evidence on onshore wind. The 1 http://www.transparency.culture.gov.uk/category/other/ results of the call for evidence were published on 6 June meetings/ and confirmed that support for onshore wind would be maintained at the levels set through the banding review. Conditions of Employment: English Language The Secretary of State has the power to review RO support levels if one or more of the statutory conditions Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for are met, for example, if there is evidence of a significant Culture, Media and Sport what rules exist concerning change in costs. However, we have no plans to review the speaking of English in the workplace. [159099] RO support rates again before the scheme closes to new accreditations on 1 April 2017. Mrs Grant [holding answer 10 June 2013]: There is Government has recently reformed the Feed-in Tariff no legislation specifically concerning the use of English, (FITs) scheme, which subsidies both wind and solar or any other language, in the workplace. generation. We are continually monitoring deployment under the scheme and have no plans to review the In appropriate circumstances an employer may be current tariffs. able to require that a specific language is spoken, or is 1 capable of being understood, in a particular working https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/onshore-wind-call- environment. However, in order to avoid the risk of this for-evidence constituting indirect discrimination, any such requirement must be a proportionate way of achieving a legitimate aim. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Direct Selling Betting Shops Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Media and Sport what steps she is taking to protect the Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions she public from unsolicited telephone calls. [159967] has had with the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government on the clustering of betting Mr Vaizey: Protection is provided through the Privacy shops. [160607] and Electronic Communications Regulations (PECR) 2003, which prohibits unsolicited marketing telephone Hugh Robertson: I regularly discuss a range of matters calls to numbers that are registered with the Telephone of shared departmental interests, including gambling, Preference Service (TPS), the PECR also covers situations with colleagues in the Department for Communities where a caller is advised that further calls should not be and Local Government. Local authorities have a range made. The TPS is a free service and more than 19 million of planning and licensing powers available to deal with numbers are currently registered with them. The problems related to betting shops, including clustering, Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) considers such as an Article 4 direction. complaints about breaches of the PECR and can issue a Broadband: Rural Areas fine of up to £500,000 for the most serious breaches. I am pressing for more action to be taken in this area, David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for with the ICO, Office of Communications (Ofcom) and Culture, Media and Sport what progress she has made TPS working together to make improvements. The ICO on delivering broadband to rural areas. [160616] has increased the resources devoted to enforcement of the PECR and on 18 March 2013, served its first Maria Miller: The first street cabinets have now gone monetary penalty under PECR of £90,000, to a company live for the rural broadband projects in North Yorkshire, that was making unsolicited marketing calls. On 18 June, Wales, Surrey and Lancashire, giving superfast broadband ICO issued monetary penalties totalling £225,000 to coverage to approximately 37,000 premises in these two companies and a further 10 investigations are ongoing: areas, with many more to come. http://www.ico.org.uk/enforcement/action/calls 805W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 806W

Also, Ofcom has improved information available to Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State has not received consumers online at: any representations from the Science Museum Group http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/tell-us/telecoms/privacy regarding the future of the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester. A list of ministerial meetings which provides clearer advice on how to avoid unsolicited since May 2010 is available on the Department for calls, texts and e-mails and a new Consumer Guide, Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) Transparency website, signposts the correct place to make a complaint: which can be found at this web address: http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/2012/10/tackling-nuisance- www.transparency.culture.gov.uk calls-and-messages In addition, on 17 April I held a Roundtable meeting The operation of the Museum of Science and Industry with representatives from consumer groups, service providers in Manchester is a matter for the Science Museum and MPs, which considered ideas and further possible Group. In the current spending period, cuts in resource improvements. A further meeting is expected to take funding for DCMS-sponsored museums have been limited place before recess. to 15% in real terms, to protect frontline services and to ensure free admission to the permanent collections. I welcome the robust enforcement action from the ICO and expect them to continue with similar tough Opening of Parliament measures against other companies as well. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Internet: Harassment Culture, Media and Sport if she will take steps to ensure that Union flags are flown in Parliament Square Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for on future state openings of Parliament. [157051] Culture, Media and Sport what plans she has to meet Facebook to discuss internet trolling. [158800] Hugh Robertson: Ceremonial arrangements for the state opening of Parliament are a matter for the Palace of Westminster and the Earl Marshal, who in turn Mr Vaizey: I recently held a meeting with major could make such a recommendation to this Department. internet service providers, mobile operators, search engines and social media companies, including Facebook, to Press: Regulation examine what more can be done to reduce the risk of internet harms. Paul Farrelly: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (1) whether any changes have been Internet: Offences Against Children (a) proposed and (b) agreed to the cross-party Royal Charter on Self-Regulation of the Press following her Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for discussions with the Scottish Executive; and when she Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions she expects those discussions to conclude; [160509] has had with her ministerial colleagues about reducing (2) what discussions she and officials or Ministers of the prevalence of child abuse images on the internet. her Department have had with representatives of the [159103] Press Board of Finance (PressBof) regarding the (a) content of and (b) timing of the submission of PressBof’s Mr Vaizey [holding answer 10 June 2013]: Working Royal Charter on press regulation to the Privy Council; in partnership with law enforcement agencies, industry [160508] and charities, Government is taking significant steps to (3) with reference to the Application for Emergency block access to illegal child sexual abuse content on the Debate, 18 March 2013, Official Report, column 630, internet, to remove such material, and to take action on the Royal Charter on Press Conduct, if she will against those responsible for it. publish any amendments to the proposed Royal Charter I recently held a summit with major internet service which have been (a) proposed and (b) agreed to following providers, mobile operators, search engines and social her discussions with the Scottish Executive. [160535] media companies to discuss what more could be done to minimise internet harms, such as access to illegal Mr Vaizey: I welcome the Scottish Parliament’s recent child abuse images. I had conversations with ministerial vote in favour of supporting the cross party Royal colleagues in advance of that summit, colleagues were Charter agreed on 18 March by the Prime Minister, present at the meeting and I will be discussing the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition. outcomes of that meeting with ministerial colleagues. DCMS officials are currently working with those from the Scottish Government on the technical amendments necessary to ensure the cross-party Charter is operable Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester in Scotland, reflecting in particular Scotland’s devolved responsibilities and Scots law. These discussions are yet Lucy Powell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, to conclude. Media and Sport what representations she has received from the Science Museum Group regarding the future Paul Farrelly: To ask the Secretary of State for of the Museum of Science and Industry (Manchester); Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of whether Ministers in her Department have visited the 3 June 2013, Official Report, column 803W, on press: Museum of Science and Industry (Manchester) since regulation, for what reasons she did not submit the May 2010; and what steps she is taking to safeguard Royal Charter on self-regulation in the press to the the future of the Museum of Science and Industry Privy Council (a) following the debate in the House on (Manchester). [159854] 18 March 2013 and (b) before 30 April 2013. [160537] 807W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 808W

Mr Vaizey: Prior to 30 April, the Government was Maria Miller: I have regular discussions with my supporting the progression through Parliament of other ministerial colleagues and all Departments consider elements of the cross-party agreement of 18 March, via equality in policy making as a matter of course. The both the Crime and Courts Bill and the Enterprise and Treasury works to ensure that Departments fully understand Regulatory Reform Bill. how to analyse equalities when preparing their spending review plans in order to avoid disproportionate impacts Science Museum Group on groups with protected characteristics.

Lucy Powell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Single-tier Pension: Women Media and Sport what assessment she has made of the effect of reductions in the budget of the (a) Science Museum Group and (b) Museum of Science and Industry 7. Nia Griffith: To ask the Minister for Women and (Manchester) on visitor numbers; and whether she has Equalities what assessment she has made of the likely any plans to introduce visitor charges at those museums. effect of the planned single tier pension on women. [159859] [160638] Mr Vaizey: The operation of the Museum of Science Steve Webb: The Government expects that around and Industry in Manchester is a matter for the Science 700,000 women will benefit from the single-tier valuation Museum Group. In the current spending period, cuts in in the first 10 years, receiving on average £9 a week resource funding for DCMS-sponsored museums have more in state pension. been limited to 15% in real terms, to protect frontline The single-tier pension brings forward by over a services and to ensure free admission to the permanent decade the point at which women have equivalent state collections. The Government is not considering the pension outcomes to men. reintroduction of entrance fees, and in line with the coalition manifesto, there are no plans to review the policy Senior Public Sector Positions: Black, Asian and of free admission to national museums and galleries. Minority Ethnic People Sign Language 8. Keith Vaz: To ask the Minister for Women and Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Equalities what steps she is taking to increase the Media and Sport what steps her Department is taking representation of black, Asian and minority ethnic to ensure the services it offers are accessible to British people in senior positions in the public sector. [160639] Sign Language users. [157926] Mrs Grant: This Government is committed to increasing Maria Miller: We recognise the importance of removing the diversity of the senior civil service, including ethnic the barriers deaf and hearing impaired people face, minority representation at these levels. Current programmes where they might otherwise be at a substantial disadvantage, which support diversity in the senior civil service or the compared to the way others access a particular service. grades that flow into it include the recently launched DCMS, which includes the Government Equalities Positive Action Pathway, the “Growing Talent”programme Officer, is encouraging organisations to explore how and the “Summer Diversity Internship Programme”. In they can meet the needs of BSL customers through the senior civil service, 4% are from a BME background, developing a mix of accessible contact strategies for up from 2.4% in 2003. their disabled and older customers via email, SMS, In the public sector more generally, the positive action instant messenger, text relay and Video Relay Services provisions within the Equality Act 2010 are designed to (VRS). These initiatives will assist many people who are be used by public bodies to increase the numbers of deaf and hearing impaired. black and minority ethnic employees in areas where the numbers are disproportionately low. US White House

Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Gender Recognition Culture, Media and Sport whether the Government plans to commemorate the 200th anniversary of the Simon Hughes: To ask the Minister for Women and burning of the White House, Washington DC, US by Equalities what steps the Government Equalities Office the British army on 24 August 1814; and if she will is taking to create and facilitate supportive and safe make a statement. [160206] environments for non-gendered people and their families. [157341] Mr Vaizey: The Government has no plans to commemorate this. Mrs Grant [holding answer 3 June 2013]: Transgender people, including those who identify as non-gendered, and their families have the right to live free from attack WOMEN AND EQUALITIES or abuse and we have already legislated to increase the length of sentences for those convicted of hate crime Women and Protected Groups: Funding directed at transgender people. This Government is strongly committed to advancing equality for transgender 6. Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Minister for Women people. In December 2011, we published the world’s and Equalities what recent discussions she has had with first ever action plan to advance transgender equality in her ministerial colleagues ahead of the spending review all areas of public policy, including in schools, workplace to ensure that funding for women and protected groups and health care. We continue to deliver our commitments is not subject to disproportionate reductions. [160637] in the action plan. 809W Written Answers20 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 810W

Sign Language DCMS, which includes the Government Equalities Office, is encouraging organisations to explore how Simon Kirby: To ask the Minister for Women and they can meet the needs of BSL customers, through Equalities what steps the Government Equalities Office developing a mix of accessible contact strategies for is taking to ensure the services it offers are accessible to their disabled and older customers via e-mail, SMS, British Sign Language users. [157932] instant messenger, text relay and video relay services Maria Miller: We recognise the importance of removing (VRS). These initiatives will assist many people who are the barriers deaf and hearing impaired people face, deaf and hearing impaired. where they might otherwise be at a substantial disadvantage, compared to the way others access a particular service. 5MC Ministerial Corrections20 JUNE 2013 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

trade associations and Government officials in the United Ministerial Correction States, Canada, Australia, Japan, Korea and other countries regarding the global reach and negative impact of the Thursday 20 June 2013 proposal, their concerns remain unanswered. [Official Report, 18 June 2013, Vol. 564, c. 790.] Letter of correction from Greg Clark: TREASURY An error has been identified in the response provided during the Financial Transaction Tax and Economic Financial Transaction Tax and Economic and and Monetary Union Debate. Monetary Union The following is an extract from the response given by The correct response should have been: the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) to the hon. Greg Clark: The US Government also have serious Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) during the misgivings and the Treasury Secretary, Jack Lew, has Financial Transaction Tax and Economic Monetary Union received a letter from Congressmen saying that, despite Debate on 18 June 2013. objections from financial and non-financial trade associations and Government officials in the United Greg Clark: The US Government also have serious States, Canada, Australia, Japan, Korea and other countries misgivings: the Treasury Secretary, Jack Lew, has said regarding the global reach and negative impact of the that, despite objections from financial and non-financial proposal, their concerns remain unanswered.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 20 June 2013

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1033 CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued Arts/Creative Industries...... 1040 Topical Questions ...... 1045 Broadband...... 1036 Tourism ...... 1038 Broadband (Rural Areas) ...... 1035 Tourism ...... 1044 Cultural Relations (Australia)...... 1042 UK City of Culture Status...... 1042 Draft Communications Data Bill (Media Ownership)...... 1044 WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 1049 Entertainment Industry (Low-paid/Unpaid Jobs)...... 1034 Disabled People ...... 1054 National Museums (2010 Spending Review)...... 1033 Female Entrepreneurs...... 1050 Science Museum Group...... 1043 Senior Business Positions (Women) ...... 1051 Sport (West Lancashire) ...... 1037 Sport (Girls) ...... 1049 Swimming...... 1041 Violence Against Women...... 1052 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Thursday 20 June 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL...... 35WS INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS Social Media Prosecution Guidelines...... 35WS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 41WS IPSA’s Main Estimate (2013-14)...... 41WS BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 35WS Trade Foreign Affairs Council ...... 35WS JUSTICE...... 40WS Guardianship of Property and Affairs of Missing COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT...... 37WS Persons...... 40WS Rented Sector Guarantees ...... 37WS Presumption of Death Act 2013 ...... 40WS

DEFENCE...... 38WS TRANSPORT ...... 42WS Reserves (Call-out Order) ...... 38WS Motoring Services Strategy...... 42WS

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 38WS TREASURY ...... 36WS European Arrest Warrant ...... 38WS ECOFIN ...... 36WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 20 June 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL...... 748W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued Disciplinary Proceedings ...... 748W Broadband: Rural Areas...... 803W Fraud: Convictions ...... 747W Conditions of Employment: English Language ...... 804W Human Trafficking ...... 749W Direct Selling ...... 804W Legal Costs...... 750W Internet: Harassment...... 805W Internet: Offences Against Children ...... 805W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 743W Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester...... 805W Genetically Modified Organisms: Crops ...... 743W Opening of Parliament ...... 806W Patents...... 743W Press: Regulation ...... 806W Public Bodies...... 744W Science Museum Group...... 807W Regional Planning and Development...... 745W Sign Language ...... 807W US White House...... 807W CABINET OFFICE...... 751W Conditions of Employment: Wales...... 751W DEFENCE...... 782W Employment ...... 752W Armed Forces ...... 782W Employment: Peterborough...... 752W Armed Forces: Qualifications ...... 783W Graduates: Lancashire...... 751W Commonwealth War Graves Commission ...... 783W Conditions of Employment ...... 783W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT...... 760W Disciplinary Proceedings ...... 783W Architecture: Planning...... 760W Military Attaches...... 784W Empty Property ...... 761W Nuclear Weapons...... 790W Evictions...... 761W Reviews...... 791W Housing: Construction ...... 762W Property...... 762W EDUCATION ...... 792W Conditions of Employment ...... 792W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 803W National Curriculum Tests ...... 793W Arts ...... 804W School Meals ...... 793W Betting Shops ...... 803W Schools: Lancashire...... 794W Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION—continued SCOTLAND ...... 747W Special Educational Needs...... 794W Conditions of Employment ...... 747W Teachers...... 797W TRANSPORT ...... 765W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 798W A338...... 765W Billing ...... 798W Conditions of Employment ...... 765W Electricity: Scotland...... 798W Disciplinary Proceedings ...... 765W Energy: Meters ...... 799W Driving Instruction...... 766W Fuel Poverty: Greater Manchester ...... 799W Driving: Licensing ...... 768W Geothermal Power...... 799W Driving Under Influence...... 767W Mining: Allowances...... 799W High Speed 2 Railway Line...... 768W Nuclear Power ...... 801W Motor Vehicles: Insurance ...... 768W Renewable Energy...... 801W Roads: Safety...... 768W Shipping ...... 769W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS ..... 750W Transport: Finance ...... 770W Horses: Animal Welfare...... 750W Travel...... 771W TREASURY ...... 776W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE...... 781W Banks: Scotland...... 776W Accountancy...... 781W Developing Countries: Taxation ...... 776W Iran...... 781W Economic and Monetary Union...... 777W Turkey ...... 782W Income Tax: Scotland ...... 777W Mortgages: Government Assistance ...... 777W HEALTH...... 771W Payments: Regulation ...... 778W Accident and Emergency Departments...... 771W Poverty: Children...... 778W Cancer ...... 771W Revenue and Customs: Portsmouth ...... 778W Carers ...... 772W Royal Bank of Scotland...... 779W Diabetes: Children ...... 772W Tobacco: Smuggling...... 779W Diabetes: North West...... 773W Welfare Tax Credits ...... 779W Disciplinary Proceedings ...... 774W Health Services: Barnsley...... 774W WALES ...... 745W Hospitals: Food ...... 774W Departmental Responsibilities...... 745W NHS 111...... 775W Disciplinary Proceedings ...... 745W NHS: Apprentices...... 775W Employment: Young People...... 745W Tuberculosis: Immigrants ...... 776W Foreign Investment in UK ...... 746W Official Visits ...... 746W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 762W Unemployment...... 746W Asylum ...... 762W Unemployment: Young People ...... 746W Borders: Personal Records...... 763W Disciplinary Proceedings ...... 763W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 807W Immigrants: Tuberculosis ...... 763W Gender Recognition...... 808W Legal Opinion: Treaties...... 763W Senior Public Sector Positions: Black, Asian and Rangers Football Club...... 764W Minority Ethnic People ...... 808W Sean Lopes ...... 764W Sign Language ...... 809W Stun Guns...... 764W Single-tier Pension: Women ...... 808W Women and Protected Groups: Funding ...... 807W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 747W Disciplinary Proceedings ...... 747W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 753W Carer’s Allowance...... 753W Disability Living Allowance...... 754W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 780W Employers’ Liability...... 754W Overseas Aid...... 780W Employment: Halifax ...... 754W Housing Benefit: Greater London ...... 755W JUSTICE...... 791W Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing...... 756W Courts: Children...... 791W Industrial Health and Safety...... 756W Electronic Tagging...... 791W Innovation Fund...... 756W Members: Correspondence ...... 792W Low Incomes ...... 757W Prisoners: Older People...... 792W Redundancy: Halifax...... 758W Social Rented Housing: Edinburgh...... 759W MEMBERS ESTIMATE COMMITTEE ...... 780W Social Security Benefits: Appeals...... 760W Former Members...... 780W Unemployment: Young People ...... 760W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Thursday 20 June 2013

Col. No. TREASURY ...... 5MC Financial Transaction Tax and Economic and Monetary Union ...... 5MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Thursday 27 June 2013

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PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £4. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £600. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £60 (£100 for a two-volume edition). Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 564 Thursday No. 21 20 June 2013

CONTENTS

Thursday 20 June 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1033] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport Minister for Women and Equalities

Business of the House [Col. 1055] Statement—(Mr Lansley)

Backbench Business Carers [Col. 1070] Motion—(Paul Burstow)—agreed to East Coast Main Line Franchise [Col. 1115] Motion—(Sheila Gilmore)—agreed to

Foreign-owned UK Property [Col. 1156] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Interpreting and Translation Services [Col. 295WH] Non-proliferation Treaty [Col. 319WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 35WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 743W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]