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VOLUME VIII, NUMBER 2 SUMMER SOLSTICE 1999 JONATHAN OTT SPEAKS… PART TWO Interviewed by Will Beifuss and Jon Hanna at the 1998 BPC Salvia divinorum Conference Jon: Living in México, what do you think that the interest in at home and make tea.” But if I do that in the U.S. I know for entheogens is there, given in a sort of comparative percent- a fact that there are going to be at least a dozen people there age? that have done it more than I have, and perhaps can teach me a thing or two if I can just connect with them afterwards Jonathan: Of course we have, at best, only soft figures in any and share information. And so the U.S. is a real leader there, case. But I would say that it’s less than it is in the U.S., in and I would say in México it’s a great deal less. But on the terms of the kind of interest that we know about—basement other hand, there’s this schizophrenic thing; on the one hand shaman. In the U.S. there’s a great deal of sophistication in there’s racism against Indians and there’s this whole socio- the so-called amateur sector. And that doesn’t exist any- economic one-upmanship, but on the other hand, all of where else, not even in Europe. In Europe, the only people México’s glory lies in the pre-Colombian past, and it’s been that are at that level of sophistication are in the business as all downhill—and very steeply—politically and economi- shamanic-plant dealers, and they’re very few. But in the U.S. cally since then. And so people also have this, in a way, exag- we’re talking hundreds of thousands of people, maybe even gerated, mythologized appreciation for the pre-Colombian millions, that are very sophisticated. They not only know culture, while at the same time they’re discriminating against about ayahuasca analogues, they’ve been making them for their dark-skinned Indian gardener. years, and have probably innovated themselves in this field and have a great deal of knowledge. If I lecture on this topic— What is true about México that’s not so true about the U.S. and I don’t lecture on this topic in Latin America in general, is you would be surprised at the “straight” people that have and certainly not in México, because I try to keep a low pro- in fact tried mushrooms, or peyote, or something. Because file there—but if I lecture on this topic in Spain or in there there’s no stigma whatever attached to mushrooms, Amsterdam, and mention ayahuasca analogues, it kind of peyote… Salvia divinorum they don’t really know about, but blows people’s mind, like “Oh wow, now you can even do it basically mushrooms and peyote are the big two. But mari- “…the War on Drugs is lost and won. They lost, we “What’s the difference between the ethnomedicine “…another scheme that I cooked up for frustrating won. They haven’t conceded defeat yet, nor will they of the ladakhis, and the ethnomedicine of the Sac- the powers that be in the War on Drugs is making do that perhaps for ten years, maybe twenty years.” ramento suburban residents? I mean, scientifically toxic honeys as a means of selling drugs surrepti- speaking, they’re both valid subjects of study.” tiously.” 62 THE ENTHEOGEN REVIEW, PMB 808, 564 MISSION STREET, SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94105 VOLUME VIII, NUMBER 2 SUMMER SOLSTICE 1999 juana and LSD are just completely different topics for them. Pharmacotheon and Ayahuasca Analogues… well, for example, And that’s gringo, jípi (hippie), “evil drug,” and the rest. And just with the mushrooms; GARTZ and ALLEN have published then peyote and mushrooms are, “Ah, our glorious indig- one table where they have 158 species of what they call sci- enous tradition.” So I will often ask, especially older people, entifically-proven psilocybian mushrooms. But as I point out when the topic comes up and they ask me what I do, I will in a footnote to my table, I’ve only identified 100. Because I just ask them, “Well, have you ever tried this?” And it’s sur- look for an actual report in the scientific literature. And then prising. You know, doctors and lawyers will say, “Oh yeah, I list others that are in their table, but there is no chemical fifteen or twenty years ago, my wife got sick and so we went evidence for it; they’re just saying, “Okay, this blues, it’s a to Huautla to look for MARÍA SABINA.” And this sort of thing. Psilocybe.” And I agree with them, it belongs on a table like Because this is a living thing in México, and even city people that, but it’s just a question of what your ground-rules are have a place for it. Even doctors who are making their money for the table. And so mine has only 100, and then I list in the as the competition. And so it’s bigger than people would footnotes about another 60 or so probable psilocybian mush- think, but marijuana is a great deal less used in México and rooms. But to me that’s an important distinction. And it may all of Latin America than it is in the U.S. And LSD and so well turn out that some of these aren’t psilocybin—maybe forth is almost non-existent. I don’t know what the statistics one of them is only baeocystin, or something like that. And are. indeed, that’s an open book, that chemistry. Though prob- ably you don’t just have baeocystin and nor-baeocystin, but The U.S., in that government survey, I think they estimated also the non-methylated tryptamine equivalents of both have something like two million users of visionary drugs like LSD, been found in a couple of species, and we’re probably deal- and it has been said that 20 million people from the U.S. have ing with at least six potentially-active compounds. And GARTZ admitted to having tried acid, or mescaline/peyote, mush- has described this aeruginacine, which turns greenish, from rooms, ayahuasca—one of these at least once in their lives. Inocybe aeruginascens, and that’s probably some non-phos- But they’re talking about only maybe a tenth of that many of phate ester of psilocin, some kind of other compound. regular users. I would say the number’s gotta be higher. That it’s at least double that and could even be as high as 10 mil- Jon: But none of these have been found in mushrooms that lion, one in 25 that are more-or-less active, current users. But don’t also contain psilocin? I’m sure that we have at least 5 million, 1 in 50, because there are about 250 or 260 millions in the U.S. I would say that Jonathan: Not so far, no. Without psilocybin and/or psilo- we’re looking at at least 2%, maybe 4% users. And I think in cin. Europe the percentage is probably higher. That there are in fact probably more users actively in Europe, maybe as many Jon: That’s the mushroom that somebody reading this needs as 10 to 20 million, if here we’re talking 5–10 million, maybe to find now, for us in California at least. 10–20 million in Europe. So potentially the market in Europe is actually bigger for these things, but it isn’t in the Jonathan: Exactly… APPLESEED and TROUT have done really sense that they’re just used to buying pills in the disco, and good work. But I don’t cite those in these kind of tables be- there’s not this “can do” go-down-in-the-basement attitude. cause they’re not published in the open literature where you They don’t have a garden anyway, I mean they don’t have can access them with a literature search. You have to have any land, most of them live in apartments. the book. I’m more concerned with what is openly available, accessible to everyone, and is in a refereed journal. And they Jon: Regarding your comment about only including the often couch their analysis, which are done with the con- analysis data from published references in the second edi- straints of not necessarily having access to the best standards tion of Ayahuasca Analogues. I’ve recently been made aware and equipment and reagents. But I definitely cite their work. of rye grasses tested by JOHNNY APPLESEED that appear as TROUT especially has done extremely valuable work, which is though they may have a fairly high tryptamine content. Is as detailed as anyone could wish as far as really backing it there anything you know of in the literature that has reported up. And he’s as careful as can be about not going beyond the this from rye grass? evidence. He’s a very good example of what I was talking about before, of not jumping to conclusions, and really stat- Jonathan: No. I don’t even know what genus that is. But once ing your grounds for equivocation also, when you’re bring- again I want to make this point really clear. In my tables, in ing up evidence. But this kind of work indicates that just go- THE ENTHEOGEN REVIEW, PMB 808, 564 MISSION STREET, SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94105 63 VOLUME VIII, NUMBER 2 SUMMER SOLSTICE 1999 ing down into the basement with a little TLC rig, anybody evitable because of economics, purely and simply.

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