Interviewee: Thomas Sung Interviewers: Anne Chao; Patricia Wong Date/Time of Interview: October 11, 2018 Transcribed by: Priscilla Li, Taylor Ginter (11/2/2018) Audio Track Time: 02:02:00 Edited by: Anne Chao

Background: Thomas Sung was born in Shanghai in 1935. He lived in Chongqing during the Resist Japan war, and moved to Hong Kong in 1948. His family briefly stayed in Brazil and eventually immigrated to the United States in 1952. He earned a bachelor and a master’s degree in agricultural economics in 1959 and continued his study in accounting and finance for two years at the University of Florida. While attending the University, he managed his family’s ranch until 1961 when he moved to New York. He worked with several large corporations as an economic and financial analyst while attending law school at night and began his legal career in 1965 after graduating from Brooklyn Law School. His practice was largely concentrated in immigration and general law. In 1984, he founded the Abacus Federal Savings Bank which also owns Abacus Insurance Agency Corp and Abacus International Capital Corp. In his career as an attorney and banker, he devoted countless hours to pro bono work for the Chinese community. The mission of the Bank is to also serve the community. In 2012, the Bank was unfortunately indicted by New York County District Attorney’s office on various charges relating to mortgage fraud. The Bank survived the indictment; after 5 months of trial, the Bank was totally vindicated. The documentary film, “Abacus: Small Enough to Jail,” captured vividly the legal proceedings. The film received many awards including Oscar nomination, Emmy Award and Silver Gavel Award by the American Bar Association, etc.

Setting: The interview took place in the conference room of Abacus Savings Bank, the interviewers were Anne Chao and Patricia Wong.

Key: TS: Tom Sung AC: Anne Chao PW: Patricia Wong —: speech cuts off; abrupt stop …: speech trails off; pause Italics: emphasis (?): preceding word may not be accurate [Brackets]: actions [laughs, sighs, etc.]

Interview transcript: AC: Good morning Mr. Sung. [TS: Yes. Good morning.] Thank you so much for allowing us to interview you. I’m Anne Chao and my partner is Patricia Wong and we’re from the Houston Asian American Archive. And today is October 11th, Thursday, 2018. Uh we’d like to start the interview by maybe asking if you can tell us where you were born and a little bit about your childhood.

TS: Okay. First of all, let me thank you for coming. We appreciate your making this long trip. Uh I was born in Shanghai in 1935. Uh when - uh two years after I was born, uh as you - if you - you may not be old enough to go back to, to that period of time, that was the beginning of the Japanese war. So uh we moved to Chongqing, my family, my father, myself moved to Chongqing. And there I was there for at least 8 years, 8 ½ years, during the 8 years fighting against the Japanese during the war. And after war uh then uh the country was of course then was in several states. Uh the nationalists were in war with the communists, the current, current government. And we moved out of China in 1948 to Hong Kong. In Hong Kong, I s- remember I studied junior high school for two years. It was a tough time ‘cause Cantonese is different than the language that I learned which is uh Szechuan and also Guoyu. Uh and then of course my native, uh I mean not native in the sense - my parents are from Suzhou, so they speak the uh Shanghai dialect more or less. So they took a long period of uh somewhat difficult learning and we learned Cantonese. And then the Korean War started so we were fearful that the war might affect Hong Kong so we hurriedly - uh when I say we I mean my family, my father, mother and my siblings, uh went to uh - uh came to United States, we find out that we couldn’t stay and for good - for a reason which we can go into, at the time it was a tail end of the Asian Pacific Exclusion Act, uh otherwise known as Warren-McCarran Act, which only allow like 105 Chinese per year. Uh so everybody uh who comes over to this country from that area, China of course is the target area, would be considered potential immigrants so we couldn’t stay. So then uh we went to Brazil and in Brazil I uh stayed for approximately six months. Uh maybe a little bit more, uh didn’t go to school or anything like that. Just acquire our uh residence in Brazil. And as a result of acquiring the permanent residence status in Brazil, we were then able to obtain non-immigrant visa because we now have a place to return, tentatively speaking from the immigration law point of view.

So then uh, then we came into the United States as a student. My uh my, my sisters and uh two brothers came as a - uh one brother came in as a student. Then uh of course uh when we came in here, the immigration and in those days, it’s called the immigration service, the naturalization service uh consider us a potential immigrant, or a non bona fide non-immigrant. So we were detained and I was uh - I recall I was on Ellis Island approximately three months. I go through hearing. Ellis Island now today is a very interesting historical place now for people to visit and I even have uh my, my family's name in the roster of people on the Ellis Island. So that was a pretty interesting story. Shall I continue?

AC: Well going back a little bit uh when you were in Chongqing, what was your father’s profession and how many siblings do you have?

TS: Okay sure. Uh my father uh yeah, my father had a very interesting childhood. Uh I don’t know if you want to hear all about that. Uh but anyway to answer your question directly, he was in the bristle business. Bristle business is the hog hair. Hog hair is you know is part of the hog. Hog is pig, right? We - here we refer to as hog. [laughs] And that strip of hair in the back is long, and stiff. Right? And that hair is utilized for brushes, uh for uh for paint brushes and so forth. Uh so he was in that business at one time, he was the largest white bristle manufacturer in Chongqing. So that was essentially what he’s - his business was. Zhuzong [豬鬃]we call it.

AC: Zhuzong [豬鬃]. I remember I think Vera mentioned uh when we were together in Houston that he was an orphan?

TS: Yes so-

AC: Do you want to tell a little bit about your father’s story?

TS: Sure I, I, I, I’d be happy to. My father always uh - I always love to hear my father’s uh story. Uh as against, I mean not against - uh different from my other siblings. I was the next youngest for 8 years period, I was the youngest one right so [laughs] Chinese family favors the oldest one, no question about that. And uh sometimes the youngest one also gets a little bit more attention. So my father tells me the story. Uh he was a, he, he was - his father died when he was three. And his mother of course, uh my, my grandmother, real grandmother was uh not able to raise him uh did not, could not afford it. So gave him to uh the uncle, his uncle, for uh to - as a son. Chinese have that practice. Right? If you couldn't raise your son, you give it to your relative to raise the son. Well that’d be quite normal, you would say what’s bad about that? Right, your uncle did not have a son, and you get the son from your brother who died.

And that’d be fine, except the, the, the uncle - my father’s uncle’s wife is uh is from the uh from brothels. Not a good uh reputable place. When my grandfather, real grandfather was alive, because, he and his brother - very similar in terms of voice, in terms of look. And my, my grandfather, I was told by my father would always uh come home and sometimes mistaken by the by the, by the, by the wife of my you know [inaudible]. Thought maybe it was him and he would be always very angry because he looked down upon… and, and, and, so there was that hard feeling in, in, in the family about, about each other.

So when, when my grandfather died and my father was given to him to raise as the - his son, the, the so called grandmother who had no children, uh then saw - took revenge on him. On my father. And they also adopted a daughter, uh that’s my uh you know my father’s uncle also adopt a daughter. But the daughter had no relationship with the family right no blood relationship, but was treated very favorably, so to say. And then uh the description was to me was, uh the you know the Chinese wear the qipao. Qipao is Chinese gown. The woman’s clothes, you know qipao is on one side. And the man clothes are on the other side right. So my father get to wear what his sister - sister’s clothes. And when he goes to school, everybody of course notice that he was wearing a female uh the qipao. Qipao is a robe, I guess you can call it a robe, right. [AC: Right.] And so they, he was always jeered at and made fun of and so forth. And he didn’t have proper shoes to wear and this and so it really took the punishment that, that my father’s father gave it to the mother and so - revenge on him. So much so that he said that he had uh attempted suicide three times. They were, they were that tough. So uh so that was the story for my father in terms of childhood as an orphan.

As a result of that, he is always particularly conscientious of people - uh the orphan, and when he become successful in his very young age and work extremely hard uh I’ll show you a book about him, part about him. So what he did was he said, okay and I’ve become successful and made a good you know amount of resources and I will now try to develop an orphanage and in that orphanage which is right next to the factory. And he had the conception that orphans, nobody taken care of, said we will make yang 樣(?), let the orphan develop, right into maturity. And the orphan can always have a job going to the factory. So his factory had approximately a thousand people working but he had the orphanage almost 1000 orphans, small orphan. And that was his story in Chongqing, until the time when the uh, uh when, when the Nationalists pull out of China, uh pull, pull out of Chongqing and you know they were defeated by the current uh Mao’s government. So that was uh the story about that childhood, but there were many, many things during that childhood I can remember during the Japanese war, how, how, how the Chinese flee from uh from the Japanese [clears throat] of course invasion.

We, we were in Chongqing, the Japanese could not conquer, or extend itself into the interior, but they try to bomb the city into submission, and that was a period of time uh I guess my wife tells you about his father fought in the air force I remember and I remember uh in Chongqing there were three air shelters and we call them fángkōngdòng [防空洞]. fángkōngdòng [防空洞] is a natural cave and you see in here, in this country, a very beautiful caves right - in I forgot it was in Tennessee or somewhere. You could go in there you see the, the, the drips as result of calcium drop uh you know drop down. Almost like teeth of a dragon - you know long dong [龍洞]. They call it long dong [龍洞] . And there were three these types of air shelters. Uh, uh in Chongqing and uh when the Japanese air force would come bombing, you come first with a uh they have a - in the high part of the city wherever they find, they would have three type of uh ball - colored, right and first when the airplane no longer there, you would have the green one. And when the airplanes coming, you had the yellow one coming up. And then they would have the red one coming up. That’s means the airplane’s already there. When that comes, then you hear the siren, blowing. And I just described some about the old days.

And so, uh so one day the Japanese came and people were of course in the shelter, thousands of people in the shelters and we don’t know what, who inform the airplane, the Japanese bomber, and they bomb the entrance to the three, uh three air shelters. And the people were suffocated to death, in terms of thousands of people. They said, you could hear people even after they open the shelter, remove the dead bodies, they said, the spirit was there. So bad and it, it, it really, in, in that period of time, and I remember I was of course young then, I wanted to join - in those days, tongzijun [童子軍], you know the like boy scout thing, right. And you want to march, I said, “gee I want to be a soldier.” [laughs] Everybody wanted to, to, to fight the Japanese right.

And one interesting experience I told in an FBI interview for employer - he became my friend, unfortunately he died. And I said, one experience I can never forget in Chongqing, uh when the United States dropped the atom bomb. The story was the atom bomb is about the size of a golf ball. But it’s not, right. We all know now it’s not a golf ball. And the Japanese unconditionally surrendered after the second atom bomb dropped in, in, in Japan, in Hiroshima. Uh so uh everybody was so ecstatic, so happy and, and went to local town. And Chinese always like firecracker. You know firecracker is a...is a tradition. Every New Year’s, we light firecrackers and firecracker supposed to be getting rid of the evil spirit and welcome the New Year coming. And as kids we always get so excited about uh New Year coming, for three days, firecracker. So all the firecrackers in the store were gone, and everybody was lighting firecracker. Oh I was so happy, I was jumping and, and you know when people get high. They say when you’re an athlete, sometimes you get high. I felt like I was in the air, going higher and higher, flying. And, and that experience lasted with me even when - years after. Now I don’t, I don’t dream about it anymore, but I dream about floating in the air because of that experience.

AC: And then so how - when did your father decide to leave everything in Chongqing and start again in Hong Kong?

TS: Yeah. That, that, that was interesting too. When the when the agitation come, of course you’re regarded as an industrialist, right. And the so uh when the strike, strike is no small thing when you have a thousand workers right… comes strike. And then my father would have them - they were all there striking, they get together. He would explain to them, say “look, uh why don’t we just cooperate. It’s good thing. You people have a good place to make a living and we’re doing good things for, for, for the, for the village for the society.” So the crowd dissipated. Alright, so that was fine. And then as it get closer, to the, to the evacuation of the Nationalists coming more of the, the, the people’s government, uh the strike organized again. This time though, it was vicious because there were people in the, uh the really was uh agitated and I remember when I was a child, we - sometimes we, we lived in home was away in Hwang 黃 in Nan’an [南岸]. The factory was near Chongqing city itself, I suppose because there was more population there, all right. And we then - he, he, he then had uh, had police department there, with machine guns so forth guarding the entrance. And then my father said, “well if you cannot listen to reason, then there’s no choice for me.” And people just didn’t think that he would leave and abandon all his assets but he, he saw. That much I really think my father was great in that sense - he’s sort of a uh predicted the difficult time at that time. He said no way for, for, for him to survive, you know in the environment that was then, he would put into.

So he, he said that we have to leave. So he picked up everything, closed the factory, abandoned all his assets in China. And for a while, not only he had office in Chongqing, but he had branches in different major cities in Chongqing. And I remember even remember I went to Hankou, 漢口是不是湖北？[Is [Hankou in Hubei?] Yeah along that area, and went to school there for, for a short time. But then he said, no we have to, we have to evacuate, we have to leave. So, so he picked up the family and left all his assets, no time and just go. And so, so that was how that happened. And I went back after the Tiananmen incident, the year after, we went back to China to visit. And we still saw the remnants of the factory and saw the school where the orphanage was, and I remember going into the miào (廟), you know the...guard 有兩個菩薩…哼哈二將,你知道吧？[There were two Buddas, Heng and Ha, two generals, you know?]. That is the two Chinese you know has an interesting brand of Buddhism is mixed with the Chinese culture, ancestor worship, you people who study Asian uh...must understand that. Guarding the gate of the Jiu Ling si [九靈寺] was two uh figure, two warriors like thing. Very-

AC: Like shen[神].

TS: Yeah. Very, te-, te-, you know, terrible figures. Scary figure. And I remember when I was a young kid, we had to go in and I just run, close my eyes, run in [laughs], run back. So this time we went back to Chongqing, and see the bǎotǎ [寶塔]. You know the bǎotǎ [寶塔] is - there’s a, there’s a uh pagoda, right. And uh the pagoda was still there in 2009, right, 2008, we came. 1998, [AC: ‘99] 1998, ‘99. And the bǎotǎ [寶塔] was there. We had the, we had a guide, and uh took us back because we wanted to see, you know. And, and then when we left, and they, they, they send us a newspaper that said, oh bǎotǎ xian ling le [寶塔顯靈了]..you know the, the pagoda came alive. You know pagoda - the history of the pagoda is uh I know some people say pagoda buried underneath where there is some mystic thing, right, [顯靈 了]. So I ask, who - how xian ling le [寶塔顯靈了]... Because pagoda, around the pagoda there was a halo. There was a hallo. And then I read the newspaper, a clipping, said that they discover that. They never seen that before, the halo was created by the locust, huángchóng [蝗蟲]. Locust. Yeah - I wish I had saved those things. In those days, I was so busy trying to, trying to make a living, you know. Your, your husband must know how it goes [laughs].

AC: [laughs] So then so your education - but tell us about your educational path. You were all over the place, it sounds like.

TS: Yes. It was all over the place, hardly had any place that I could really study Chinese. And I said, Japanese were bombing, bombing, and we would be running to air shelters, in high school, so forth. But anyway in Hong Kong, there were two years, junior high school we did have a you know peaceful, peaceful time, and really study, in, in Chongqing, hardly. But my father did do one thing, he hired a tutor, a Chinese tutor, he, he believed in lao fa shu [老法書]. You know lao fa [老法] meaning the old Chinese tradition. He admired the Confucius, Confucius philosophy, he’s always admirer of that. And he himself, even though he said did not have that much… He was educated in a Christian uh missionary school and oh that was interesting too, I’ll tell you about that one. And, and then, uh so we didn’t have - I think we had three or four months of bei, da xue, da xue [背大學, 大學] is like Confucius has four books right [AC: Uh Si shu Wǔ Jīng (四書五經) Classics.] Yeah, yeah. Da xue [大學]- we had to memorize it, don’t, don’t care whether you know about this or not, and this doesn’t complete - you had to memorize this. So we memorize it, and uh before that there were liang ge xiao de shemo jing [two small something or other classics 兩個小的什麼經]. Uh I don’t remember.

AC: Sanzi jing, keneng. [Maybe the Three Character Classic. 三字經, 可能]

TS: Yes, yes.

AC: That’s for children to start off.

TS: Yeah, yeah we had to memorize it, and then “renzhichu xingbenshan,” shi bu shi ah?[“The origin of man is kind; his nature is compassionate, ”isn’t that right? “人之初, 性本善,”是不是啊?] A lot of philosophical difference. For instance, “renzhichu xingbenshan, xingben...?”] [“The origin of man is kind; his nature is compassionate, origin of man?” “人之初, 性本善, 性本?” [laughs] but that was, that was interesting.

AC: What was the name of the high school in Hong Kong, do you remember?

TS: In Hong Kong, it’s in - yeah I do remember that. The high school in Chongqing is uh Chong Wen xuexiao [重文學校] something like that, but anyway didn’t have chance to really study, so, so, so but did have that little bit of exposure in tutor -in zhongwen [Chinese 中文] thing. And when I went to Hong Kong, uh I went to Pei Ying, Pei Ying [培英] uh chūzhōng (初中), chūzhōng, ye you gaozhong de [junior high, but it also has a senior high. 初中, 也有高中的]. So I studied there chūzhōng liǎng nián [two years in junior high, 初中兩年] and uh and it was a very good education. But in China you know you - when you study, you really have to study. And I remember studying chemistry over there. After I study chemistry over there, even though in here I had to repeat this chemistry in here, I thought I knew everything. You know in chemistry. At one time, I thought I was going to go in medicine. [laughs]

AC: So then from Hong Kong, you came to Brazil, and then came to United States.

TS: Right, right, right.

AC: So you said you did not go to school in Brazil?

TS: No, it was a short time, did not go in Brazil. And uh after we acquire…because, we wanted to come to the United States to study. And uh so after we got our permanent resident status, we were able to have the American consul issue a student visa for us. Now we came in as a student, and then you know immigration law is two part. I tell you that because I practice immigration law for 20 years. I mean or there about. Okay. So one part is the consulate issuing you the visa, allow you to officially, you know, the attempt to enter United States. At the time you enter the United States, there’s what they call inspection before you’re formally admitted, during that period of inspection, they can then determine whether or not you’re bona fide according to visa or not. So that’s the second step, and there’s where they decided you are not bona fide, non immigrant. Still, we didn’t even know what, what, is bona fide, or not bona fide. We didn’t even know okay. All we know we had a problem paper you know. So we went in on the other side, and hearing after hearing after hearing. Very interesting part, the hearing officer - when I start to practice law, they recognize me, I recognize them. It was so funny. They said, “oh let me go dig out your immigration papers here, what are you doing here.” [laughs]

Oh I, I gave them a hard time. I gave the immigration service, the immigration director a real hard time. I use to litigate cases after litigation. I would pull people from the airplane. They were about to be deported, some of them even on the airplane, uh on the airplane, the rule you heard of the writ of habeas corpus the American jur- legal jurisdiction was proud of writ of corpus. And any person who are detained right has a right of applying for writ what they call. That is, you can write this on a toilet paper, and if you have chance – a way to have it - present it to a judge and say, “I have been detained. And I do not know the reason for the detention.” And according to the American jurisprudence, Anglo-American jurisprudence, the judge can then sign an order say, “bring forth this prisoner to a hearing, to determine whether or not he is rightfully detained.” So that's what we call it. I don’t know how many writ I filed. And how many people I took them off from the airplane [AC: Wow.] even in you know. So got to the point the immigration service in the New York said, “Oh this guy.” I would call them on the uh - to the district director office and said that, “why are you doing this to us?” Well, you know. Then they said you know there’s a process before you can go to the court you had to ask the district director - application for stay on deportation, upon his denial then we can go to court, right. Now he would say, okay, you submit your application. And he won’t, won’t decide, until he has the prisoners. People ready to be deported - prepare on the airplane. Right. By the time you get to deport, the guy’s already on the airplane, gone. Uh so because it’s outside the jurisdiction of the court. The court has jurisdiction within the territory of the United States. But I would have had people went to Alaska, brought back. Been to Hawaii, brought back. Then what they did was, they avoided all that; they went from here, to Europe, from Canada to fly them over.

AC: Oh so you, so you already left the country, you’re no longer-

TS: Yeah they, they took the Atlantic route instead of the Pacific route. Anyway, it was so funny. And I had a good time. I remember uh...but people couldn’t understand - where this young guy uh you know I was young then, I was fighting left and right, and having a good time bring people in. [laughs] One time I had uh 10, 11 or 12 uh people was working in law and immigration service raided the, the restaurant and got them all 12 together. Everyone of them had my card in their pocket. They figured maybe I committed a crime in, in, in importing these people in, right. But then, they all find out that these people were - they, they, from, they all got my business card. So they know when they are here, they’re arrested, they call Tom Sung. Tom would then go - I would then go to uh the, the, the, the call the bondsman. And then bondsman here would, would put up a bond. $2500 would bail them out. But, many times in those days, they don’t even have the $2500 ready, but they have relatives to put out right? But, if their association people call me, I trusted the association person, then I would put my credit with the bail bondsman. So, the moment they arrested the - the association people get noticed, they call me, I call the bondsman, in the same day. They’re released. [AC: Wow.] So there was an interesting battle in those days, and uh and then uh well there are many other things. It’s also interesting.

Uh, uh we, we you know when all remedies failed, we would ask for congressional help to issu-, to, to, to issue a private bill. And I remember Senator Fong - Hawaii did issue a few for - these are people who technically speaking really are not enti- entitled to stay, because they, they come in as crewman. Crewmen are paroled into the United States, not really admitted in that sense. So they could not adjust their status here. Uh but I would then - because they have skill, if they’re a chef - they are needed here, so I would then use a, what we called, sixth preference, get them all prepared, they’ve been approved, and then send them out to a, a - to European country, like Germany, or some consulate to issue a visa to come back again. So the interruption was very, very short.

AC: So take this back to when you first arrived into the country, and then go to Florida. [TS: Mmhm.] Right and then you - were you in Florida for several years?

TS: No what happened was this. When we came over to this country, and after the uh, after we, we were released from the detention, the, the, the...Ellis Island, and actually they find out they really did not - they could not detain us anyway, because my father then was applying for treaty trader, that’s what this book is. Treaty trader is a special status awarded to, awarded to alien whose country - I mean, has a treaty with the United States. And this particular person contributed substantially in terms of the trade with the United States. During second World War, the bristle, or hog hair was considered as a strategic material. The reason for that is because uh hog hair are used by the navies to paint boat - right, that’s paint brushes. But then you say why don’t they use nylon to paint brushes? But, if you examine the hog bristle in the microscope, you’ll find that the bristle has a small channel grow on the hair. So that channel is - acts like a pen, you know the pen that you - like, like...so absorbed ink, so you don’t have the - the hair absorbs the paint. You don’t have to dip the brush into the paintbrush so often, and you would then be able to paint much easier, that’s one reason.

And then, they used the brush to clean gun barrel, right. When you fire the gun, the gun barrel’s hot. You couldn’t use nylon. Nylon was then discovered during second World War. If you put nylon brush in the hot barrel will cause the nylon to curl, and it would lose its effect. So bristle was considered strategic material. And my father supplied considerable amount of bristle to the United States. He was then qualified awarded as treaty merchant. Treaty trader, treaty merchant...treaty trader. So his family allowed to, to come in with him. But anyway, he would then apply. So they finally decide to release us. And, and probably to their regret. [laughs]

AC: How did you go to Florida? What was the decision? [TS: Okay, so, so then-]

TS: We went from New York to go to California to, to, to, to, to, hi-, to, to a parochial high school to, to, to, to study high school there for one year. My mother then was in here in New York and she was - fell victim of cancer. She had ovarian cancer, then we had to come back. And after we came back, my mother passed away in 19- what ‘53, somewhere around that time. ‘53, ‘54. And then, because so many of us are ready to go to college, my father said, well it’s a huge expense, and let’s find a place that you can go to school, college. And we, we didn’t have, we didn’t have time to think about, which good school to go to, right? We just think about which - so happened, it was a good school. We went to Florida, Gainesville, Florida. So there we establish our residence. He bought a ranch, cattle ranch. That’s where I become a cowboy. For 7 years.

AC: For 7 years. So you went to school, and you also were taking care of your ranch?

TS: Yes, I, I went to school and I also took care of the ranch. Because my brothers didn’t want to do it [laughs].

AC: So I, I - mind if I ask you how many siblings you have? Have one brother, or two brothers?

TS: I, I, I have two brothers. Uh my older brother uh came with me at the same time. My younger brot- no my eldest brother came with me. Then my second brother stayed with my mother, on the second trip came. But he later on joined, joined of course he helped. My brother Jim he died, he passed away. My older brother’s still alive, still living in Gainesville. And I have a younger brother who is mentally - not, somewhat deficient they call it today. So many terms they can give to them, right? Somebody who just didn’t - he did manage to pass the 8th grade and I remember such a hard time to teach him A, B, C, D [laughs]. But anyway, he passed away. So uh so, so when, when, when we’re in Florida, my older brother - oldest brother did not want to participate. He likes to sing, he likes to have a lot of fun so forth. That’s fine you know happier life. And I can attest to that. And I was designated as the one to.. [laughs]

AC: And how, how big was it - it was a ranch, it had cattle on it?

TS: Yes, yes. It’s 12, 12, 1200 acres. Like two square miles. And we had as many as over 1000 head of cattle. And that was some experience. Some experience.

AC: And what degree did you get in Florida? Is this Florida State University?

TS: The University of Florida. [AC: Oh Gainesville.] Yep, in Gainesville. Florida State is in Tallahassee. Yeah. And University of Florida later on - I mean it was a land, land grant college of course. And I studied because the ranch, I studied agricultural economics, which is a production, production economics. It’s micro economics. Then after I uh got my bachelor degree, I got my MA, then went to the business school uh further my study in finance and economics. I took all the courses uh to qualify to go into PhD. I guess, but I don't have all A’s I have B’s. Lots of B’s. Couldn’t get all A’s and to go into uh, to, to PhD program, you need uh more A’s and then B’s as you know.

AC: And you were working too. But you were working too.

TS: That’s right. But that, that 7 years working on the cattle farm is such an invaluable experience for me. Uh you learn to understand the limitation, uh as a person. You learn to know that your, your, your, your, your accomplishment or whatever you want to call it, depends upon not just human factor, but depend upon God. Depend upon, zhongguo ren jiang [Chinese would say 中國人講] Heaven. Right [laughs]. So uh oh there’s so many experiences on the farm, I can never forget. One day, I said to write a story about my experience on the farm, how - what it taught me. People say, “well we went through uh Cultural, Cultural Revolution.” And I said uh that, that was such a hard time for them. I said, “I don’t think you have ever gone through the hard time on the farm that I went through.” Uh...you want to hear the story, you don’t want to hear the story?

AC: We’d love to hear the story, yeah. [laughs]

TS: [laughs] Um, two, two things. Uh on the farm. You know on the farm, it depends on nature. Uh you know to live. There are two things that the - somewhat interesting. When I was a rancher uh when I got, when I get on the farm, I saw the cowboy who had three cowboys were rallying up the cattle in the pen. And I said, gee that seems like a lot of work making the cattle to run into the pen and it’s kind of like you know not humane like. I said, what are you doing to these cattle?” He said, well - uh the cowboy’s very abrupt and short. We’re, we’re penning the cattle for TB test. They have to test to see if they have TB. You put the cattle in there, you put them in the shoot, you squeeze the shoot and they couldn’t move. And then they take a test. TB test. Okay. And I said, well do you have to go through that. He said, well listen, if you want to learn how to raise cattle, you should get on a horse, tell me. And I was then eighteen and a half, something like that, and said gee that was a challenge. You know, to me. So I went there next day, they were penning the cattle. They gave me a horse, so I got on a horse. Remember I, I’m supposed to be the owners represent right [laughs]. I got on the horse. They were there running, penning the cattle. They didn’t want pay me any attention. I follow them on a horse. And you know horse when they, when they run and so forth, it bounces. You have to know how to take the shock. If you don’t take the shock, you’re banging against the seat. Like this. After the third day, I could not walk down the stairs straight. I had to walk down the stairs, like this, sideways. But then after I recover I learned. I then become a full-fledged cowboy. I could, I could ride a horse I had no problem. They could not tell me anything [laughs] I don’t know.

You get on a horse, people would get on the horse, make sure the saddle is, is uh tight on the Western saddle not the English saddle. Right, working saddle, with a horn. You rope the cattle so forth like that, right. So you make sure and then you would step on the stirrup - it’s called stirrup, and then cross, right? But the cowboys would take hold on horn by one hand and then jump right on. So I learned to that. Okay you can jump, I can do that [laughs]. That was those days. So that was one interesting experience. Then collateral to that in the day when I was raising cattle, there were calves. When the calves were born the navel cord - are raw. You know still blood, right? From, from the thing. There’s a - there is a fly in those days called screw worm fly. Screw worm fly, an interesting characteristic. They would lay their egg on raw flesh. The raw flesh, would - they would then hatch, become worms. The worm will eat the raw flesh and they would drop off. And then when they drop off, when they mature they go into another...metamorphosis would become fly. They would then continue that cycle that way. So the duty of the cowboy in those days was to catch the calf you know. Some calf maybe already running 2, 3. Run the calf down, rope them down, tie their leg up. And then pour tar over their navel cord. That was a tough job, really tough job.

And look – amount of energy you waste in, in trying to catch the calf, and do the thing here now. And then, what I want to tell you was that the US Department of Agriculture, the entomology department discovered that these screw worm fly will only breed once. Because of that characteristic, they then breed these flies in the laboratory, en masse, in big quantity. But bombard them with radiation so they all become sterile. And then they release them every two square miles, a box of these flies. And these flies then go, go mate with the other fly and then the screw worm was eradicated in two years. That was some achievement. Science - I, I personally witness how well that worked in two years, screw worm flies was eradicated. We didn’t care about the discontinuation of species [laughs]. That was a fast - it was dangerous. They said, if screw worm had existed, probably through some kind of mu-, mutation during the Civil War, it would have been awful. People would, people would die.

AC: So how did you go from a cattle farm in Florida to New York City?

TS: To New York City. Well uh well if you don’t mind, I’ll tell you one small more incident about the farm and I’ll tell you how I get to New York City. So, so then uh in the winter, uh we need to raise cattle by growing like oats we call it or wheat. That type of things grow in the winter, right. So the cattle can eat and get fat, so to say. So, so one, one autumn we decide to, to plant 300 acres of oats, that would be the appropriate thing to do. I studied - make sure the type of fertilizer, the oat seed, and so forth. I got on the tractor and, and plowed the, plowed the land. It was 105 degree heat. And then finally we sow the seeds, cover it up. And low and behold there was no rain. In Florida, you never heard of no rain. All the way, every day would not germinate. I would looking to the sky, hoping that it would rain. It was just so frustrating. You were so anxious, you were so worried. And you spend so much time and money building you know fertilizer and things. It was just totally exhausting in that kind of emotional exhaustion - never experienced.

And finally in February, the rain came in just a small little bit so the entire season was a devastation... with cattle. So, I said, that experience taught me - I then thought, think back, when I came to New York. Why? Why I came to New York - my mother died, my father decided to get remarry. That give us a relief, we don’t have the responsibility of taking care of our parents, right. My father got married so he, he was in California more often than in Florida. So I, I decided that it was time to put the farm into soil bank. Soil bank is a program by government to take the productive land from the production and plant into trees. And trees would then was very much needed for the pulp, fence post, and the light pole, things like that. Pine trees, right. So we put all the land into trees. Plant into trees. And then, I thought, that was accomplished. And there was return - the government gave you subsidy, not only in terms of planning, but also they rented your land, in a sense, for 12 years. After the 12th year, you’re on your own, because the tree is big enough now, so that you don’t have to - you’re able to, if you wanted to get income, you could get some income, carry you through. Or you could just let it grow for 20 years, and then harvest the tree for fence post so forth. So then I left, came back to New York. My father was against it. He said, well why don’t you stay in Florida. You went to school, you got your MA - you go to graduate school study more for, for, for uh for finance and so forth. I, I, I saw that making living on farm is just not the future, very difficult. You know, you have to have big, big operation to make the farm grow.

So I came to Flor- uh New York, and then that’s how I started working. You saw on my resume. First job was with General Telephone and I become first - their first economic analyst, General Telephone of course become Verizon later on. And I helped them develop a couple of important things. Uh...I found that the telephone gains - we had - I had a lot of statistics of what they produced, but nobody analyzed it. So I found there’s pattern, typical pattern to the telephone growth. Uh and, and, and, and that pattern conforms to the business cycle. It’s a coin-, it’s a coincidence indicator. In other words, when the business cycle is up, the telephone gain is up, the, the business goes down, the telephone gain goes down. So with that information, then you can predict if the tool that you can predict business cycle, you can predict the telephone growth. And with those information, you can then appropriately predict uh or plan your, your, your budget for plan, for - you know to build the additional equipment and plan. So that was an important information for the telephone those days.

AC: And then I also understand that you went to night school to, to study law.

TS: Yes, then I went to night school because uh when I came over here, my purpose was try to go to night school. To, then I decided that - you know I mean, I could have tried to go to NYU to study more, but I don’t’ - I got all the courses anyway in the financing. I even accounting - I lack one course in accounting, that’s auditing to become accountant. So I said to myself, well uh...no use let’s try to study for PhD. And they won’t want me for PhD anyway because uh you know my grades are all A, I mean B’s. I do have some A’s, not that many A’s. But mostly B. [laughs] I don't’ think I have any C’s though. But anyway, and so I decided to go to law school. And going to law school was an expensive proposition in Columbia Law School I don’t - they don’t have a night school program. St. John’s has a night school program. Brooklyn Law School had night school program so I went at night, instead of 3 years, 4 years. And that was really, really tough. Out of 85 people that went in, only about 30, 35 people graduated. And, and I tell you and uh it, it was so tiring that I said… and I had a very responsible job,

I went in as a - after the economic analyst, financial analyst to Ford for short time, in Dearborn, to McCall Corporation and I wrote some paper, and told them why they lost money in the Stanford caper and everybody praise me up and down - the controller. [laughs] Then shortly I got a notice from the… that your job is being eliminated. Why I found out because my paper criticized the commercial printing division, the vice president get so mad at me - for my. That’s working for somebody else, that’s the problem. So then, that was good thing, so I went to McCall, apply for financial analyst position, through the head hunters, right, in those days, employment agency. And the uh the financial analysis department, the manager says oh it sounds good we’d like to hire you, and then I don’t hear from him then all of a sudden, said the vice president of finance would like to see you. I said okay so I went to see, see him and he said, “listen uh I know you’re coming here apply for as financial analyst,” I forgot the guys’ name, manager, but he said, “but I’d like you to be my assistant.” He said “are you sure everything you said on the resume?” “Yeah, sure give me the papers.” “Be my assistant, what’s the salary you like? Don’t tell me sky's the limit” [laughs]. You know Chinese very modest. I should have been - should have asked for the sky [laughs] but I ask for double the salary, somewhere around $300. But that was a good salary.

So I become his assistant and while going to law school and that was the important job because all the subsidiary controllers report so forth, I had to review, I criticize. And they don’t probably like me very much [laughs] I, I, I...I don’t have the real authority, but I was there criticizing [laughs]. So, so Jim Brennan, the vice president, so finally after a year or so he said “Tom I’m going to leave now the company, but I want to put you in a good position,” so I could have followed the corporate route I suppose, route. And I said Jim, “what is this position that you have for me?” He said well the Macmillan Book company, which is a large book company right. In those days, the largest book company. I don’t know today what they are, and said that their manager of that department has - what is it, 16 financial analysts and you could be the manager there, and I was 27, 26, 26, 27. So I said, Jim I thought about it, I said thank you I said I, I just about finishing my law school, I so much wanted to try it, to practice law. I said if I don’t do it in one year, I said I’ll come back to the financial field. So that’s how I started my law practice.

AC: And then you hung up your shingles in immigration law in Chinatown?

TS: No I didn’t. So what I did was I went to a law firm which my uh family had a relationship, the guy who wrote this uh apply for my father. Leon Finley I went to see him to get some advice, you know I would then, of course making good salary then. I call him Uncle Leon, I said listen, I’m uh thinking about starting to practice law. He said, “oh you could come practice with me.” So that was then the firm was called Finley and Gore and uh I said, well what will be salary. He said as a clerk I only can give you $75 a week. $75 a week. I made 4, 5, 6 times more than that. I said, well I’ll tell you what. Just put my name on your letterhead. I will try to bring in the cases. If I could not handle the cases, you can handle them, alright. Your firm can handle them. But let me have my name on your letterhead.

TS: --do you have an office space for me? I’d like to, you, know, sit there.” There were about five, six Jewish lawyers. The joke was, “Tom you’re in—” ‘Finney’ is actually ‘Finkelstein’ he changed his name. “Your name should be changed to Shapiro.” [laughs] So after I stayed there for about three months or so, I saw these lawyers and how they do it and I’ve done a lot of these things here, contracts, seeing so much of it. So I—I decided then I would go to Chinatown to serve—to see if I—remember, I wanna have one year time. [AC: Yes.] I said, I will go to Chinatown. Let me see what I can do to, uh, to-to serve the people there. So when I went to Chinatown, when I go to Chinatown, I’m going to do something for the community, right, for them to feel that you are here, really contributing to the community. And I am not Cantonese, and I am not Taishanese, and you-you really, in New York, anyway, you have to be Taishan. Taishan. Taishan is a small little town—I mean—in, in, in Canton. And there, the original railroad builders, that’s how—they come in, remember the Chinese exclusion act? No Chinese can come in, Taishanese were dominant, if you don’t speak Taishanese, you don’t speak Chinese. “Tang ren wu sick gang Tang hua” [“Chinese people do not know how to speak Chinese” 唐人唔系講唐話] Right? That— that’s what they’re quoting. So. I went to the Chinatown, I said, “I’m going to do something for the community.” So first thing I did was to find out what did they need? So they lack—hardly any Chinese lawyer, there were two Chinese lawyer. One good lawyer, Benjamin Gim, he had a good background— lawyer. Another one is Norman Kee. Norman Kee’s father used to sell paper, paper son—paper father, you know, I mean, brokering this thing here. And you know that’s what the Chinese Confession Act came in. So—so I-I-I say, well, okay, you guys have all the good cases, no cases for me. So what am I gonna do? So I could do two things. I find myself a little place in-in, on Pell Street. 16 Pell Street. Second floor. In the morning, when you go to the office you had to jump over the garbage bag. That’s literally true. That’s how tough it was. Jump over the garbage bag. And there were three insurance guys were there and I said, well, let me share your office with you? And he said okay you can take the rear back office. So I took the back office, dark, you know, hardly any lights and sorts. So I took the back office, set up a table, that’s that. And hang up my shingle as a lawyer over there, and they since start referring cases to me, difficult cases, okay, nobody want. So I took the first case that I had, it was a difficult Chinese confession case. The man was here, Willy, we call him Willy—was here for how many, 20, 30 years and coming as a paper son, and his wife was in China, could never bring his wife here, paper’s not clear. So I got him straightened out and brought his wife into the country. And then I start to write information about immigration law and so nobody was doing this service. So the Chinese journal—newspaper welcomed it. So I—I everything I wrote about immigration law was always published. So I become well known. In those days you cannot advertise. Lawyers could not advertise—cannon ethics prevents lawyer from advertising. So. But through that, my name got well known, so people come in for small things, for big things, you know, I remember a time when Vera was born, we put her in a crib, right, and they would come in for notaries then, right, so I notarize, “Oh, no, no, nothing… charge” and they would leave and throw one dollar, two dollars, five dollars, what they were—I, I, Willy came in and we saw a five dollar bill on the crib, right [laughs] so we—five dollars—we went to Chinatown and had the best meal. That was so good. In those days the—the, they think of “long li.”[龍利] “Long li” is fluke.

AC: Yeah, “long lei.”

TS: Yeah, “long lei.”

AC: Yeah.

TS: Yeah. Fluke. And it was a big long li; we had such a good time with the five dollars, and that—in those days—the five dollar is better than a five hundred dollar today’s meal [laughs]. So that was interesting field. But, but anyway—

AC: But you also became chairman of the Benevolent Association?

TS: No I, no I did not. I wanted to make sure that I would not be called up to be criticized—people in the community, I learned, I learned that—how to deal with the community pretty well, I mean, in that sense. Uh, if you—if there’s any tint of, that you are doing this for money then your reputation is, you know— the group that will attack you will say you—you—you—you are making money out of things, right. So I make sure that there are no money involved. Everything pro bono. So what happened was this. When I came in I found out “中华公所” Chinese Benevolent Association has Chinese school. The Chinese school—the principal, Mr. Liang went to Peiying [培英]. He saw me in his—you know—he said “you’re from the Peiying zhonghho[培英中學].” In those days they called the New York Public School Unincorporated. Totally, you know, informal, right? So he said, “Mr. Sung, could you help us with the— with the formally get us the charter? Incorporate us, so forth? So I did both of those—I think I spent approximately eight weeks working for the community totally pro bono. What I did was organize this school thing and got them a permanent charter from the Department of Education. To do that they require you to really go through the detail and anything and when you’re young you can do these things. And then I wanted to get them the tax exemption. That was a bit of a challenge. And I got them to do that. And then what else to do. 中华公所. 中华公所 has existed long before, you know, and their record was so messy. Could not possibly give them the tax exemptions status. So I said, well how about the building that they occupy that produce the income they call the Chinese Community Center? I said let me take the Chinese Community Center and make them a tax exempt organization. That’s where the school is. So I got them tax exemption for that. And—and then, so I become the attorney representative for 中华公所 and then all the other—because immigration law—all the other family associations—Yook Ying (育英), Tai Pun (大鵬), and—Tsung Tsin (崇正) all these associations ask me to become the—the attorney so I was attorney for all the—practically all of them.

In those days, Chinatown was small. You walk down the Chinatown, they all recognizes you now because you did so much for the community, right? That was a good feeling. [laughs] So I will never then lack of cases to do. So I was so busy. And then I moved out, moved to-to-to the Chatham Green, 217 Park Row. Established my office right next to. Then again, I was so busy. I was so tired working as a lawyer in the— I said I can work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, people will still be waiting on line for me. So I said did you—I—what I saw was I was taking everybody’s problem as my problem [laughs] working for solving their problems. So I said gee, you know, I really have to, you know, thinking about how I should settle myself. And—but then I said, that’s not right. That’s after 20 years, and as a lawyer, you sort of burn out; you’re tied to a desk all the time doing 6 days a week doing this law practice. And I even had the Mafia, you wouldn’t believe it, the reputation was so much so because I was bringing in people left and right from—you know—from immigration service so [laughs] so upset with me. So one day I had a Mafia guy came to me say, “You know, Mr. Sung you have a good reputation, we know you can do it. And we have a, we have a…guy that we just want to keep him here for three weeks, or four weeks so that he has time with his family before he is deported. We know you can do it. And we will pay you $5,000 fee for doing that.” That was a huge fee then, right? I was so tempted to do it! And I said to myself, gee, should I do it? Should I do it? Once you get into this, next time they will ask you again; next time they will ask you again. And if you don’t do it you—you know—you may end up in a garbage can. And you don’t want FBI following you all the time. And I want to do good for the community, and I—I was really trying to help them with the law enforcement, in the police department and so forth. So I decided not to take it. So that was, that was that episode. So.

AC: So then you decided to leave and walk away from immigration law business and become a banker. How did that happen?

TS: No, yeah— I really never thought I would do that. They told me that they need to—they need banks, is very much needed. In this community there was no bank that was controlled by the Chinese community. And the government in those days wanted you to establish a savings bank in Chinatown—in the Chinese community because it represents people. They want to—they want to be represented. Federal Home Loan Bank was then a bank that supervised us, savings bank, federal. The state savings bank. State savings bank too wants you to do that—wanted you to do that. But I say if I have to stay I might as well do federal so they helped me—leaned [over] backwards to help me get the charter. So I got the charter. I couldn’t raise the funds! You know, I know Albert then and it would have been easy. They wanted—they wanted, they wanted two million dollars, not capital. They called it subordinated deposit. Which means you’d be the last one to take out your deposit, right? That should be easy, right? I could not do that. Everybody says banks does not make money. The Chinese, you know, I hate to say this, are not united in that respect. They don’t want to part … their things, so I didn’t—I couldn’t raise it. Then the law changed—they converted the thing into a stock corporation. So we were the first one to came in under law in 1984 [inaudible] to be issued a charter for stock corporation. To convert from a mutual—before the bank was open—into a stock. So if we could get two million dollar stock. Then I tried to get a stock with a little bit better, people were willing to invest, but even so, I got a few people invest very small money, like maybe about 300 some thousand dollars, the rest of which I asked my family to put up, to get bank open. And I thought if the bank opened that’d be fine; my father always wanted to open a bank. He was associated with Shanghai Commercial Bank. So we always thought maybe, you know, the bank is the right thing to do, because that could really help a lot of people, not just one person at the time. So we opened the bank. Two—three things are required in a bank. One is the location; one is capital which we got the two million dollars. It was only two million dollars in New York City—today you could not do it for 15 million dollars to open a charter, right. So then—the third one is qualified, experienced personnel. So I was helping Mr. Liang open up the United Orient Bank. That was the bank that I helped form before this bank. United Orient Bank form could not raise the capital either. They got two million dollars; the state required five million. They lacked three million, we couldn’t raise it, and finally a…a guy by the name of Eddie..Eddie Chen (?) (?). Eddie Chen was the former deputy inspector from Hong Kong who was the, you know, sought by the Hong Kong government for, for crime. So he knew in advance he left, right? He’s wdell-informed and then he controlled the—he went and joined the On Leong because the money that he had and so forth, he then become head of On Leong. Then he said that “I will put up two million dollar, matching the two million dollar you raised” and so so United Orient Bank was—K. C. wanted to open the bank. Then I said to K. C. no, you know, my position as a lawyer, I could not be associated with people who was not clean. And even though I spent, I don’t know, in terms of legal fees, it must be $150,000 worth of my, in those days, time in doing that, to get the United Orient Bank formed. So I said, K.C. if you want to do it, it’s your business. I understand; you waited for a long time, and I, you know, your personal feeling, but I just couldn’t do this with you. So two weeks after the open, I resigned. Everybody said I was very foolish, you should have got your money back, or anyway, you know, like from fees, things like that. I said no, no, no, I want to keep clean. So that’s how I formed the Abacus Bank.

AC: Wow. That’s amazing. So—[overlapping]

TS: And United Orient Bank two or three years later, of course, had a run because Eddie Chan said he was the head of the bank, and head of the Republican party. And Mrs. Chen—General Chennault’s wife said, said I have always been the head of the, the Republican for the Chinese, and how could you be then called…? They start to investigate what kind of guy this Eddie Chan is and find out all these criminal background. He walks around with the baobiao [bodyguar]保镖, you know, baobiao[保镖]?

AC: Bodyguard.

TS: [overlapping] Bodyguard! With a gun. I had one meeting with him. He wants to talk to me and I want to talk to him. I said, boy, this guy here, not me—if he says approve the loan [and] I says no, what am I gonna do with a guy like that? Right? Yeah, I can’t compromise with him like that in principle, so I just walked away. So, so—Mrs. Chennault then reported to friends in the Senate, Senate conduct an investigation, find out what the background of—of Eddie Chan. Eddie Chan—they cause bankrupt. So everybody says Tom, you were smart. Two years early you left. And Eddie Chan is the book, “The Year of the Dragon. [AC: Oh?] It was written about him, it was “The Year of the Dragon” he was a real criminal. Real criminal.

AC: And was the Abacus open at this location? This was their—[overlapping]

TS: Abacus—then, then Abacus was okay—I, I on the side I was doing a real estate business. When you’re young, you know, you’re ambitious; you do all the things. Never—nothing fazes you; it seems like everything you do you’re successful, right? Now, everything you do is a block [laughs]. But so I own a lot of real estate, yeah. It started off—the first real estate, oh it was an interesting story. You never have time to hear all those. With nothing.

AC: Well we—we, one story, we have time. You can maybe share one story [overlapping]

TS: You wanna? [overlapping]

AC: Yes!

TS: Yeah one story. Well, as I was practicing law, I befriended a second mortgage—a guy who lends out a second mortgage—he lends out money as a second mortgage. So first mortgage from the bank, they maybe needed more money or somebody, then he would come in and get a little higher interest is the second mortgage he got. Alright? Ben Mallamud is the guy, youtairen [猶, 猶太人], [Jewish person]. So I befriended with him. He liked me. One—one good thing though, I always, when I was young, I always had the renyuanhao[Good people relations,人緣好], I always had people that like me, you know. The teacher likes me. The reason I was able to establish myself in here, not being a Cantonese, was also the, because, when I was 18 when I was in New York at that time, I went to Chinatown, I came to Chinatown, to-to baishifu [seek a mentor/master 拜師傅].

AC: Oh.

TS: You know? You know? Zhongwen, bai shifu [Chinese- seek a mentor/master “中文：拜師傅”] .

AC: Right.

TS: Yeah, gongfu-功夫.

AC: Oh, 夫，功夫, you were learning Gong Fu [Kung Fu]?

TS: Yeah, Gong Fu.

AC: Oh, okay.

TS: Gongfu [功夫], bai shifu [拜师傅].I came to Chinatown, I said I want to learn Gong Fu, who should I do to learn Gong Fu? He said, oh Gong Fu master, Master Wang, you should go to see him. I saw Master Wang, Wong Moon Toy (黃文采), and he became good friends of mine. He doesn’t want to charge me— he becomes, he trusted me and taught me everything that he knew. Well I had such compacted time before I go to Florida that was during the high—it was, I just finished high school at that time. Three months, (inaudible). And he is well known. His teacher was Wang Feihong. Wang Feihong [overlapping]

AC: Yeah I remember that—[overlapping]

TS: Wang Feihong (黃飛鴻) is —

AC: His teacher?

TS: Yeah, his teacher.

AC: Okay. Wang—Fei—Hong.

TS: Wang Feihong. And he says he also learned from Hou Yuanjia

AC: Hou...

TS: Hou Yuanjia.

AC: [overlapping] Yuan. These are the teachers of your master? [overlapping] Of your Gong Fu--

TS: Yeah—yeah,

AC: Your 师傅—

TS: Yeah, the other Wang Wencai.

AC: And how do you spell Wang Wencai?

TS: Wang, Wang, Wang Wen—Wang Wencai.

AC: Okay, W-E-N, tai?

TS: Yeah, yeah cai.

AC: T-A-I?

TS: Yeah—[overlapping]

AC: Okay.

TS: 他是 f-f-f-“fujiao pai” [He is “tiger-paw style.]

AC: Fujiao pai?

TS: Long—fujiao—“tiger paw” [overlapping]

AC: Ohh okay.

TS: “Tiger paw.”

AC: “Hujiao pai” [虎腳派]

TS: You can find out.

AC: Okay.

TS: So, Wang Wencai, so after I left, he likes me so much; I’m calling it renyuan [people relationship, 人 緣], he said, he said, “Oh the other people that are learning,” he said, “You people have to remember, you have a shixiong [elder brother 師兄] in Florida”

AC: Okay.

TS: Okay. “His name is Xun Kaixing [孫啟誠] you know, so. So when I came back 10 years later to Chinatown to practice, he died. But his disciples came over to—said to me, “Oh, baiwo [pay respect to me].” Woshi, woshi, shibo. [I am, I am, elder brother. 我是，我是, 師伯].

AC: Oh, right. [TS laughs] Because now you’re more [overlapping] senior

TS: [overlapping] I’m elevated now! [laughs] I’m shibo—so, in the sense, I have underground support from, from not being a Cantonese. But I have the support of…underground support [laughs].

AC: That’s amazing.

TS: Isn’t that funny?

AC: Yeah.

TS: But anyway, we’re talking about…

AC: The location of the bank, right?

TS: Yeah.

AC: The real estate.

TS: The location—so I had the location in, in on Market Street. I said—I held up this charter for two years, when it opened, they regularly call me, they said, “Tom, you know you had the charter for a long time, if you don’t open, we’re gonna have to withdraw the charter from you.” So I said, “Okay. I didn’t find the right location but I’ll open it up on Market Street.” You had to be a ground location, so they accepted that. And it was a lot of interesting story about the bank too--

AC: It had to be a ground location? [overlapping]

TS: It had to be the ground floor.

AC: Oh, okay.

TS: The ground floor. So we opened on Market Street. Market Street at that time is a narrow street down here, right? Now, it become popular because the Fujian-ese thing here. And we had—so I opened up there. While we were looking for this place here, and—in…in…Bowery, we bought the building in Bowery, and then constructed building in Bowery. In Market Street we had a robbery, and that’s, that’s [laughs] so many interesting—the first time the robber came and they flipped over the bullet barrier, we were just started. We don’t have the money to really build a nice barrier and I had the construction crew and everything. I put up the, you know—a bank-like place, so they flipped it over, grabbed the bag for where you take to give the armored truck, to give the Federal Reserve, right? And they took it away, and they call me, “Mr. Sung!” I said, “What is it?” “We have a robbery in Market Street.” You know I was working in here then. I don’t even remember when we opened the place up. I said, “Well, how much money did they take?” You know, of course we weren’t sure, I just wanted to make sure it was within the insurance amount [laughs]. “You see, well, they took nothing. They grabbed the two empty bags.” [laughter] Oh, I said, “Oh that’s funny. I said. Well, okay, just beware, okay.” So I was busy trying to do other things. Three weeks later, must be the same group came. This time it’s just like in the movie. Two guys came with a, with a hood—with a machine gun, got in the front of the bank; two flipped in, took the money that’s in the bag, 300 some thousand dollars, and fled—and people passed by, they thought they were doing a movie scene. 真的！[really!] You know, isn’t that amazing? You talk about these things here, you actually go through that. It’s a really, really…funny. It’s funny.

AC: So how many years did you—Abacus has been open…20? [overlapping]

TS: Uh…Abacus open since 1984.

AC: Oh wow. So now 30 years.

TS: 30 something years. Yeah. 30...34 years. Yeah.

AC: You’ve had an amazing career. Everything you’ve done.

TS: Everything—this Bowery has two buildings, 6 and 8 [AC: Yeah.] Okay? So I thought, you know, that was my, in your peak of your career right, you think there is nothing—nothing you can not accomplish, you know. Everything you touch you always get done. So we say, we’re gonna have truck— it was two… old building. One part of which is a drug store—old Chinese drug store. In fact the Chinatown museum has part of the things, in the museum there. We gave to them what they wanted. So, so one side has a restaurant, has a lease. The lease did not expire, we couldn’t get them out. I said, “okay. But I’ve got a constructive spot here.” So we start to construct, and I hired a guy who is the head of the city demolition department, engineer. He retired. Sam Roberts. That guy should be totally knowledgeable of a building, correct? You could not, you could not have anybody better head of the building department, chief engineer and all that stuff. So. We dig. On this side here, on the eighth Bowery side, the restaurant, has no basement. Small. Yeah. Or maybe had a basement, but anyway, very small. Small. On this side, where the—where now the Chinese drug store is, had a deep basement all the way down. I said to Sam, I said, “Sam” I said, “You know. The guy who I have is a Portuguese guy, doing the excavation for me. You have to underpin,” which means building from the top down; that’s required because you have to be on virgin soil, “soil undisturbed” they call it. I said, “Sam” I said “They tell me it’s dangerous. You should not—you cannot go down anymore.” Sam says, “No, you have to go down, your foundation has to be low, just next door. That’s the route you have to go down.” Finish, we walk through, I told him well, continue to excavate, underpin. I walked back to Chatham Towers; that’s where I have my new office then.

And as I get into my office I hear sirens, fire engine trucks. Unbelievable! “What’s going on?” Then when I get to the office, somebody call me, “Mr. Sung, I think you better come back to 6 Bowery.” 6 Bowery where you’re building a three-story building. This was a rein…six stories…really superimposed building. Finally we got the eighth story on top. He said there is a collapsed building. So what happened was this, the underground dirt under 6 and 8 Bowery, they call “Canal Street” for a reason. Alright. It’s all sand, and the sand was pure white sand. Like, like sugar, alright. The lateral pressure, pressure from the side, because it’s fluid; it’s not solid, pushed the wall away and so the next door neighbor restaurant dropped down like an elevator floor. When I came back, there was a lady trapped in the bottom of the elevator. My entire face right side become numb. At that particular time, and I tell you, honest to god, I felt it would have been better for me to be down there. Fortunately, she did—she recovered from injuries, she did not die. It’s okay, we got her—she got out, was in the hospital. And she was recovered, ultimately. Thank goodness there was no fatality. But we did have a lawsuit. The lawsuit was from a lawyer, one of the lawyer who practiced law in Chinatown whose father was the paper broker. [Liu Deguang?]

AC: So he was your rival? Right?

TS: No, he was suing us.

AC: Right, the son. The law firm.

TS: Yeah he’s—Mr. Liu commenced [AC: Oh.] that to represent the restaurant. And he said we want two million dollars. I said the whole bank’s asset’s two million dollars. No? So he dragged out. The lease had three and a half years to go, I then was able to find somebody; I was very young, you know… to, to, to shore up the building to restore it so he could go back, technically. So that he would not be able to say that we prevented him from—you know what the final settlement was? $200,000. That’s all he got. He— the lawyer got maybe one third, and the restaurant only got—. I said, serve you well, when you are—his thought was, I’m sure, he told me, “how could you, not from Chinatown, come here open the bank, and I’m a lawyer in Chinatown,” [laughs] “I couldn’t do what you’re doing?”

AC: Wow.

TS: At that time in, you know how old I was?

AC: 40? Maybe?

TS: wushi sui, 五十岁.

AC: 50 years old.

TS: 五十.

AC: 50 years old.

TS: Yeah, so then I remember my father always told me, “四十岁 [sishi sui forty year old], Confucius say, 不惑 [buhuo to not be confused], right, 五十岁知天命 [wushisui zhitianming at age one learns of heaven’s design (fate)].” At 50 years old, you recognize and you realize, no matter how much you think, how capable you are, whatever you think you can do, if god does not want you to be successful--succeed, you will not be successful. So zun [accurate, 準] At age 50, 你知天命[ni zhi tianming you know fate].

AC: So of course we probably won’t cover Abacus, this lawsuit, in detail because the movie is there. But do you think that the successful outcome of this lawsuit also was somewhat related to tianming [fate 天 命]. That you think it was fate, or that god wanted you to succeed that eventually you prevailed?

TS: I-I always, you know, Anne, after we formed this bank, I didn’t form it with the purpose of making money. We hired a guy to be the manager of the bank. I thought I could do my thing, develop real estate. If I developed real estate today, I would be like Frank [Liu], right? Frank. If I, if I did not say that I would be a hundred times better than I am now, at least ten times; because I was then the first developer. Nobody ever started the thing. There was no transaction passing lower Manhattan. Lower Manhattan, without me first know about it because then I was then associated with Standard Abstract. I could have—I could have benefited doing real estate, but I choose—not, not really, really completely choose—the guy who run the bank, James Tang, caused us lose $30,000 every month. I look at our asset, look at the way he was running, absolutely have no knowledge of what business concept is. I said, “If he continues to run the thing here, for two years the bank would totally go down the drain.” Every month $30,000. After three months I jump in. Then I have to neglect my law practice. People say, well, you-you-you-you-you now run the bank; your daughter has to practice law for the bank. But we have a law practice before the bank. Busy. Alright, it was very, very busy. But we did it because we wanted the bank to succeed. So I spent all the time to do the bank. To this day I do not take any salary from the bank. Any pro bono work involving the town, so forth, I told my daughter, “Vera, do not charge them. They want to form a cemetery, you know, do it for free.” I used to cover so many things. Do it for free, that’s okay. Good things will be added unto you. Whatever you give is somehow or another, you will get back one way or the other. Spiritually or [laughs] financially. You get back.

So that’s how we did it. So when the run started in 2003, people say, nei how ding…Guandong ren gang ding [you are so calm, the Cantonese say, so calm 你好定，廣東人說定], means “you don’t get nervous. How come you are “so ding.” Hui-ling would say to me, “What are you gonna do? They’re gonna be run!” She asked me progressively, “What’re you gonna do?” I said, “What’re we gonna do?” I said, “You don’t have to—if you—if you, if people will gather and you have a run.” She said, “What’re you gonna have a run?” and I said, “You have a run; you have a run.” You know? [laughs] I-I did my best to prepare the institution. We never took a dividend out. We let the bank build up its capital; you know, as much as you can. And we never, I never gave the kids a salary increase. Of course they don’t need it; we give them real estate—[laugh], they all…about that. But, if we did not do that, if I was not what I decided to start, you know, the bank; I would have been nervous. I don’t know if the bank could survive. I doubt it. When I came back to the bank, during the first bank run, they say, “it was a run that you have not seen since the Depression.” That’s what the Associated Press said. Within all the branches people were piling up three blocks, five blocks long but when I, they-they-I did not know. I was in Florida. When I came back, the Associated Press—after I—whenever I came back, I went on the line, I told the police, give me a bullhorn in the morning, people started to gather, pile up waaaay in the back there. I then announced to them, “I am here. I did not run away with Carol Lim.” They thought I run away with this woman. Went to China, you know, she was the Vice President, in charge of operation. They thought, they said—I took 50 million dollars with the woman, went back and disappeared in China. You know. That was the rumor, right. So when I came back I said, “Hey, I’m here!” You know, “Everything should be fine, no problem!” Right, so the crowd disappeared. I’m dissipated.

The next day they come back to deposit money [laughs] honestly! Just like the Bailey’s—but it’s not. So that’s how the story about Bailey compare with “It’s a Wonderful Life”[the movie] started in 2003. And we were under lots of pressure. When I—on my way back Hui-ling was driving, I was in the car trying to understand what’s going on, and I was still think—no big deal, I’ll handle it, you know [laughs]. And then the regulator call me he said, “Tom!” he said, “You know, you-you-you should know that this is not fun anymore. You are in real dire strait.” I said, “Why?” “The regional commissioner of OTS [Office of Thrift Supervision] said.” I said, “What?” He said, “Federal Reserve Bank decided to pull the day credit.” I said, “What?!” “They pulled the day credit!” Economics 101 will tell you, when the bank is fundamentally sound, you need the cash; the Federal Reserve Bank is supposed to inject cash to help the bank in that situation. “We’re totally sound!” I say, “We have the money.” You know. What? “They withdraw the day credit.” I said, “Well what about the Federal Home Loan--” I said to my people to take the liquid asset bond, government bond, so forth, to, to use as collateral to get the cash. Well that’s normal. Who’s our corresponding bank? Former, regulator, Federal Home Loan Bank, before they were separated they were Federal Home Loan Bank, right. So I said, “Mr. Sung, Federal Home Loan Bank, instead of giving you a haircut, decided to only give you 50% of your security that it’s worth.” I said, “That’s so ridiculous!” I said, “I can take the security tomorrow, I can sell it! What is wrong with these people.” So when I get to New York—I rush back to New York, I dissipated a crowd for the liquidity was a big problem; Associated Press, every newsman, you know, I was just like the uh, all the newspaper men wanted to talk to me. The run the neighbors, you know, seen since the Depression. So we went to Canal Street, we used to have a branch in Canal Street. We lost the Canal Street because this lousy Vance case. We didn’t lose a lot, a lot—shangyuanqi[傷元氣 damage the inner qi] [laughs]. So I went there. The newspaper asked me, say, “Mr. Sung, the rumor is that you went with Carol Lim with 50 million dollars and went to China. What’s your answer to that?” I said, I look at the guy, I said, you know with a smile, I said, “Listen, whoever started that rumor doesn’t know how tough my wife is.” [laughs] Everybody laughs, so that was—that was the answer.

AC: So--

TS: [overlapping] That was that.

AC: If you had to do it again, would you still start Abacus—after all this happened—would you still start Abacus again like you did?

TS: [overlapping] Well, yeah, people ask me that. You know, I don’t—I, you know, my father is an extremely cautious person. I see how, because of his always questioning people, doubting people, how tough a life he has. And I swear, when I grow up, I said, “When I do business I will always trust people.” As a result of trusting people, of course I had the Carol Lim episode, right. And then I said I always want to trust people. This way here I feel to be happier, to-to-to, in my life. And I still believe that. And I said, “I don’t want to regret—I always remember that, the Confucius has a saying, right, ‘If you’re truly wise, you have no doubts.’ ‘zhizhe buhuo, renzhe buchou’ [知者不惑.’ ‘仁者不愁]’ ‘If you’re really kind, you have—you don’t worry.’ Right?

AC: That’s great. So—[overlapping]

TS: [overlapping] ‘yongzhe buju 勇者不惧’ If you’re brave you shouldn’t prove (?) it—you’re not—you shouldn’t be afraid.

AC: That’s right.

TS: So, so I always say, if a decision is made and that comes out, that’s god’s will. So that’s fine. If I were to live again, to answer your question, I would probably do the same.

AC: That’s amazing. So we asked Chant—your children, Chanterelle if she had any questions she wanted us to ask you. And she said she’s always thought that you and Mrs. Sung very much believe in the American dream. Um and she says, is that still true? And how much did that impact your decision to do what you did? Your life?

TS: [sighs] Well, ‘American dream’ is a term used for people who come here as an immigrant, somehow they found success. In my case, of course, well, people—my family did have some assets, but when I left Florida, it was against my father’s will. He did not want me to leave. He wanted me to stay, and you know. But I thought the right decision is to leave because it’s limiting. So I borrowed $230 from his friend and came to New York. I did-I did not use one cent of family money. So, but I must say, though, knowing that there is always a place that I can return, gave me that confidence that otherwise I would not have without a family base to support me. So it’s not totally by you, right? You might not make the same decision if you’re totally [inaudible], but... Truthfully, I have not used any of my family’s money to, to accomplish for what I have made—mostly accomplished. But that’s just, in a figurative way. But whether or not the dream is accomplished, I don’t have any regret. I…if you believe in prayer I always say that I thank god not because the fact that that I am able to have some control, certain amount of assets or whatever, and of course to a lot of people that’s nothing today. But I…I thank god for two things. One, is that it give me the ability to analyze. You know, the, you know, again, going back to Confucius saying, that you have to be, know how to fengshi [analyze 分析], you know. Then to come to a decision. And you have to be thankful that your wealth, physically, that you—notwithstanding the tribulation and hardship that you go through in business, but that’s sort of expected, right? You-you nothing comes smoothly. You always have something. And with that, you hope that you can somehow return to the-to the society or something. That you can believe and you can say that I have done my best.

AC: So, so maybe the final question. If you had to say one thing that you feel so proud to have accomplished in your life, what would it be?

TS: Hm. I don’t know. One thing that I have accomplished in my life?

AC: Or maybe several of the most proud accomplishments. Because you’ve had so many, it may be hard to choose one!

TS: [laughs] Yeah, in a sense you could say you have so many accomplishments, hard to choose one, or you can say you have so many mediocre ones you cannot find a good one to say [laughs]. Well…well, I would say, of course, anybody always say, if your children grows up and they are not on drugs, they are all self-supporting, they are professional people, they are all honorable, that’s certainly an accomplishment. That’s not my accomplishment—if I say that my wife would say that’s her accomplishment! Which I have to readily agree, you know [laughs]. But jokingly, I always say that, “You know, even though it’s your accomplishment, you know, it was very hard for me too as well.” She says, “what do you mean it was hard for you too?” I said, “Well, I had to set an example of how to obey the mother, you know?” [laughter]

I don’t know…it’s a—a lot of people can point to a lot of things that they accomplished a lot. Yeah, I always think, sometimes I always feel like I could do more [laughs] but I haven’t done more. I hope I—I hope I could do more. But time is short.

AC: Well you’ve certainly done a lot. [to PW] Do you have any questions, Patricia?

PW: Uh…I guess I wanted to ask you, you know, how have you seen Chinatown change in your time here?

TS: Yeah, that’s actually an interesting story. It may take a little time to tell you. When I first came in in two thousand and…what, 1964? Coming here, Chinatown of course it was a very small area and the total population of the United States as I understand what they were saying was around 270,000 Chinese, that’s all. And it quickly grew to be something like 750,000 after the immigration law was changed to allow 20,000 Chinese to come in. Then the big change came in to Chinatown—the first big change, was the fall of the Vietnam. The fall of Vietnam, you know this, the history the United States pull out of Vietnam and a lot of people who was in Vietnam were supporting the Unites States policy and among those who were Chinese. And the misimpression by the American government at that time was the Chinese communists and the Vietnam communists were friends. But not realizing the Vietnam had the lot of border conflict with the Chinese. You remember the 7 day—short, how many? 7 weeks war? Deng Xiaoping went into Vietnam and went all the way to Hanoi and it’s such a speed. But then he decided to pull out. After that, there was one incident that history may not know. And it’s worthy of us Chinese to know, is that Vietnamese start to persecute the Chinese, but they did it in a way that—an unusual way. What they did was they confiscated all the resources of the Chinese who did not want to change their name, you know, become Vietnamese. They confiscated their resources and gave them a small fishing boat and let them to sail out to high sea, and that was during President Carter’s day when Vietnam fall and President Carter become the president, if you recall. So Chinese in the hundreds of thousands and they were saying a half million Chinese died in open sea. And at that period of time, this is not a story, and I spent 8 weeks again, stopped my regular practice, and I decided that there is a mission there for us to accomplish. We need to do something to save the boat people—the Chinese people. I remember going into meetings and so forth and because I know immigration law—I practice immigration law here, I consulted the immigration lawyer and find out what the protocol is for refugee. The first country of landing, the country must accept, and I was thinking how we can then bring these refugees on the high sea to the island of Guam. And you want to hear that story?

AC: From Guam?

TS: Yeah, yeah.

AC: We may not have much time…

TS: Yeah, okay. That’s right. so you don’t have—I’ll make it very short. So, anyway, we went and tried to find ships to pick them up on the high sea and have them sail to Guam. And that did not—was not successful because the ship owner did not want to pick them up and go to Guam because he was afraid that the American government might hold his ships. So even though we came out with a plan to send—go park it in international water and have the fishing, small boats send them into Guam. But anyway, it was a big, tense moment. People were just dying. Mother Theresa was there trying to help. Reverend Tanenbaum, famous Jewish rabbi and a cardinal here in New York trying to help. And finally, who came to help? To answer your question there, to come back to your question. The Quakers went and picket the White House. Carter was then the president. Everyone hold a candle. They say nothing; they just walk around the White House. And Carter couldn’t take it. He sent the Seventh Fleet, picked them up. Overnight, the Chinese population doubled, 700,000. That was in answer to the second part of your question. So that’s a change to Chinatown. And there, with that group of Vietnamese refugees, a lot of them end up in Florida, in Texas, in fishing…in which you may not know the story. There’s a lot of interesting story about them, and also in connection with the gang and extortion, because these young kids were militarily trained. So that changed the characteristic of Chinatown.

The third major change was the Fujianese illegal immigrant came in. The Golden Venture people. If you connect that, the Sister Ping, Pingjie.

AC: Right.

TS: Yeah I remember Pingjie.

AC: Yeah, I read about her.

TS: You read about her, alright. Yeah, Pingjie. And he came in, he brought the people illegally to come in. And the Fujianese people dominated, so now even New York, Brooklyn, today they all become very successful prosper. They were willing to suffer for so characteristic of Chinatown changed greatly greatly because of that in capacity. So that is the story. In between that there are a lot of other stories.

AC: Well thank you so much. And this is such a quick run-down of Chinatown history! I’m very impressed [laughs]. But thank you so much for the sharing your story with us. And I feel like this is just the beginning. There’s so much we need to understand [overlapping] and maybe come back for another interview.

TS: [overlapping] Well you’re very kind and you’ve very ambitious and I didn’t even show you the orphanage--

AC: Yeah.

TS: Did you see it?

AC: No, I took some pictures.

TS: Oh you took some pictures okay.

AC: Since we’re still recording [PW: Yes.] could you maybe open and show us a little bit? [overlapping] This way we have--

TS: Yeah, yeah, okay.

AC: I took some pictures of the table of contents.

TS: Oh I see. [papers rustling] That was during the time when he built, built the orphanage—I mean building the factory. See, this is baota[宝塔 treasured pagoda].

AC: When you went back were there two menschen [门神]? Were they still there? Or they’re gone? They’re two scary deities outside the front.

TS: I didn’t understand you.

AC: Oh, so you said when you were young you would run into the temple because you were afraid of two monsters--

TS: That’s right!

AC: They’re gone? [overlapping]

TS: They were no more. [speaks Chinese] so you see, these are the orphanage. This is my father, this is the head of the orphanage, and these are the orphans.

AC: Can you put your finger on your father?

TS: This is my father.

AC: Okay.

TS: Yeah. So all these are the orphans that he was trying to support and build.

AC: The thousand people?

TS: 900 some people, I don’t know how many people. We could gather as many---

AC: Wow.

TS: And this is the 宝塔 (pagoda), xianling [apparition 現靈]. [laughs]

AC: Xianling. The name of the company is right here.

TS: Yeah.

AC: Thank you.

TS: Apprentice?

AC: Yeah.

TS: Mmhmm.

AC: [reading] “send something Chongqing relief institute to enjoy work in the factory.”

TS: Yes.

AC: Wow. [overlapping]

TS: That was the—that’s satisfying for him because he was an orphan. And that--

AC: What an entrepreneurial way to--

TS: Yeah, and there was another one, that’s my father [papers rustling].

AC: In his office. In his factory office.

TS: Yeah, Chongqing general manager. This is him.

AC: Right. Do we have his name? Do we have—can you write his—do you know his Chinese name?

TS: Sun Ruilin [孫瑞麟]. If you write his—哎呀，我的中文真差 [Gosh, my Chinese is so bad!]. But anyway--

AC: Sun Rui--

TS: 孫是这个孫 [This is the Sun]… Rue…哎呀 [Aiee] Lin…我都现在忘记掉 [I’ve forgotten]. You know what, downstairs at the entrance door--

AC: Uh huh. There’s a plaque?

TS: There’s a wording: ningjing zhiyuan[寧靜致遠].

AC: Okay. I’ll go look at it.

TS: shi Sun Ruilin tide [It was authored by Sun Ruilin 是孫瑞麟提的]

AC: Okay.

TS: Yeah, I know, if it’s not spelled right I know. [pulling out another picture] These are the factory workers. [long pause] You know this is probably not all of them, but anyway, whatever he could gather at that time.

AC: And that’s the factory?

TS: That—that, yeah, that was zhuzong chang [hog bristle factory 豬鬃廠].

AC: So when you were to put this book together, in order to get special treaty merchant status [overlapping]

TS: Yeah so in order to apply for the treaty merchant status. That’s what they did. [overlapping]

AC: Wow so there are letters of recommendation, there are papers—financial papers to show he [overlapping]

TS: Right—you see zhuzong [hog bristle, 豬鬃] is in here, you know, he—how he dealt with the people in, in the—zheshi zhuzong[this is hog bristle 這是豬鬃]

AC: Oh my goodness! This is what the bristle looks like.

TS: Mm. This is black zhuzong. And here--

AC: It is really hard. So he brought some with him?

TS: Yeah.

AC: When he came to the States.

TS: This is white zhuzong, bai zhuzong [white hog bristle 白豬鬃].

AC: Wow.

TS: bai zhuzong.

AC: Oh my goodness.

TS: What—I don’t know, I’ve practiced immigration law for a while, I felt that I knew more than he did, the lawyer. [laughs]

AC: I’m sure you do!

TS: He never went through the problem I did in bringing people from the airplane [laughs]

AC: Well thank you so much, this is amazing—[overlapping]

TS: Oh you’re welcome. And say hello to Albert for me [overlapping]

AC: I will! [recording stops]