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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 1

1 Special Tribunal for Lebanon

2 In the case of The Prosecutor v. Ayyash, Badreddine, Merhi,

3 Oneissi, and Sabra

4 STL-11-01

5 Presiding Judge David Re, Judge Janet Nosworthy,

6 Judge Micheline Braidy, Judge Walid Akoum, and

7 Judge Nicola Lettieri - [Trial Chamber]

8 Tuesday, 28 April 2015 - [Trial Hearing]

9 [Open Session]

10 --- Upon commencing at 11.06 a.m.

11 THE REGISTRAR: The Special Tribunal for Lebanon is sitting in an

12 open session in the case of the Prosecutor versus Ayyash, Badreddine,

13 Merhi, Oneissi, and Sabra, case number STL-11-01.

14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Good morning to everyone. We are sitting

15 today to hear the evidence of Dr. Atef Majdalani who will shortly be

16 joining us. First could we start with appearances for the parties,

17 starting with the Prosecution.

18 Good morning, Mr. Cameron.

19 MR. CAMERON: Good morning, Your Honour. It's Graeme Cameron for

20 the Prosecution, assisted by Ms. Skye Winner.

21 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: For the Legal Representatives of Victims.

22 MR. HAYNES: Good morning, Your Honour. Peter Haynes for the

23 participating victims with Joanna Spek this morning.

24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: For the Defence.

25 MR. AOUN: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good morning. Good

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 2

1 morning to all. I am representing the interests of Mr. Salim Ayyash, I

2 am Emile Aoun. Thank you.

3 MR. EDWARDS: Good morning, Your Honour. Iain Edwards, together

4 with Sarah Codde, representing the interests of Mustafa Badreddine.

5 MR. LAROCHELLE: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I

6 am Philippe Larochelle representing the interests of Mr. Oneissi.

7 MR. YOUNG: Your Honours, good morning. Representing the

8 interests of Assad Sabra, David Young. Thank you.

9 MR. KHALIL: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I'm

10 Jad Khalil. I'm representing the interests of Mr. Hassan Merhi. I'm

11 assisted today by Ms. Nathalie Leblanc.

12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And I also notice the presence of two

13 members of the Defence Office in the body of the court today.

14 Mr. Cameron, you have a witness. Can you please give us a brief

15 sketch of the evidence, what we call a road map, please.

16 MR. CAMERON: Of course. The witness today is Dr. Majdalani who

17 is a practicing neurologist. He began working with Rafik Hariri in the

18 political realm in 1996 and was first elected to Parliament in the year

19 2000. As a member of the Prime Minister's Future Bloc, Dr. Majdalani can

20 testify about some of the events surrounding the extension of

21 President Lahoud's term, including conversations which he had prior to

22 the extension with two of the pro-Syrian candidates referred to in past

23 evidence as Syrian deposits on the Prime Minister's 2000 electoral list,

24 the late Adnan Arakji and Dr. Nasser Kandil. Dr. Majdalani can also

25 testify about pressure which was brought to bear upon him personally by a

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 3

1 high-ranking member of Syrian military intelligence, General Mohammed

2 Khallouf. Dr. Majdalani can also testify about some of the political

3 events following the extension of President Lahoud, including such issues

4 as the Prime Minister's relationship with the Syrian regime, his decision

5 to exclude pro-Syrian candidates from his 2005 electoral list, and the

6 various political alliances which the Prime Minister developed in order

7 to be in a position to be successful in the May 2005 elections.

8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And could you take it a step further and

9 just tell us the significance of this evidence to the Prosecution case in

10 a nutshell.

11 MR. CAMERON: The significance is two-fold. One is in respect of

12 the pressure that Dr. Majdalani personally experienced prior to the

13 extension of President Lahoud, it demonstrates the degree to which Syria

14 was intent to influence the internal politics and governance of Lebanon.

15 And as I indicated in the submissions relating to the general background

16 political evidence, this general interference is relevant to the

17 non-personal motives of others that is open to you to consider as

18 connected with the assassination of the Prime Minister, which the

19 Prosecution alleges to be a political assassination.

20 Second, Dr. Majdalani's evidence about some of the timing,

21 particularly when the deposits, i.e., the pro-Syrian candidates, were

22 informed of the Prime Minister's decision that they would not be included

23 in the 2005 electoral list will connect with a number of other events,

24 particularly telephone communications in evidence which is to follow.

25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you, Mr. Cameron. Is Dr. Majdalani

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 4 Procedural Matters

1 still a Member of Parliament?

2 MR. CAMERON: Yes, he is.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Good morning to you, Dr. Majdalani. Can you

5 please take the solemn declaration.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 WITNESS: ATEF MAJDALANI

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Before we start, I'd just like to get some

11 personal details from you, and all I need you to do is tell me whether

12 I've got them correct or not, you can just say "yes" or correct them.

13 The details are the following. Can you please confirm that you are

14 Dr. Atef Majdalani. You were born in 1948 in Beirut. You are a Lebanese

15 national, and you are a Member of the Lebanese Parliament as well as

16 being very well medically qualified?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. I'm going to start, this may sound a

19 little bit boring, I know you speak Russian, French, English, and Arabic,

20 which is quite -- which puts some of us here to shame, which means you

21 can follow the proceedings in the three languages we're using here. Now,

22 that has its advantages and disadvantages. And one of the advantages is

23 if you can hear it in English and French and you're going to answer in

24 Arabic, sometimes you might jump in and answer before it's been

25 translated for everybody else. So I'm just going to ask you to be very

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 5 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 cognisant of the fact that we have interpreters in the booths up there

2 doing simultaneous translation and our court reporter sitting in the

3 corner there. I would ask you if you could just look at the screen in

4 front of you to your left, there is a screen which has a transcript on

5 it. If you could glance to that and when the words stop, that's when you

6 can speak.

7 Mr. Cameron.

8 Examination by Mr. Cameron:

9 Q. Good morning, Dr. Majdalani.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. By way of background, Dr. Majdalani, I understand that you're a

12 physician and, in fact, a neurologist and that you studied medicine at

13 Leningrad University from 1969 to 1976 and then neurology in France from

14 1979 to 1993, and that you worked in France as a neurologist and was

15 appointed as a professor in several hospitals in Paris during the 13 or

16 14 years that you stayed in France. Is that generally correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And around 1993 you returned from France to Beirut, where you

19 began to practice at St. Georges Hospital where you continue to practice

20 up until today in addition to your role as a Member of the Chamber of

21 Deputies; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, I understand that in 1996 you started to work in politics

24 with the late Prime Minister Rafik Hariri and were nominated as a

25 candidate in his electoral bloc during those years, but at your first

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 6 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 outing in politics you were unsuccessful. You tried again in the year

2 2000 and you were elected to the Chamber of Deputies; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And throughout the period of your political career up until the

5 late Prime Minister's assassination, were you aligned politically with

6 Rafik Hariri?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And which area of Lebanon did you represent as a Member of

9 Parliament?

10 A. I represent the area of Beirut, the city of Beirut. In 1996,

11 Beirut was one electoral constituency and the list, the electoral list,

12 included 19 members. As for later years, Beirut was then divided into

13 three electoral constituencies. As far as I'm concerned, I ran for

14 elections in the year 2000 with Prime Minister Hariri for the first

15 constituency in Beirut; and in 2005 for the second constituency in

16 Beirut; and in 2009 for the third constituency in Beirut. Therefore, in

17 all cases I represent the city of Beirut in its entirety.

18 Q. And during that period of time from perhaps the year 2000 onwards

19 to 2005, can you in brief terms describe your relationship with Prime

20 Minister Hariri?

21 A. My relationship with Prime Minister Hariri was, and has always

22 been, one of friendship. It is a relationship that was based on honesty,

23 on loyalty, and during that period and even before that period we had

24 started preparing for the creation of a political movement that was to

25 become Al Mustaqbal or Future Movement. I was one of the people in

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 7 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 charge of the syndicates and doctors' orders, engineers' orders, and bar

2 associations.

3 Q. And when did the Future Movement, as you put it, come into being,

4 what year roughly?

5 A. Politically speaking, the Future Movement saw the light

6 practically, in practical terms, after the assassination of late Prime

7 Minister Rafik Hariri. When Prime Minister Saad Hariri came to power to

8 replace his father, this is when Future Movement started its activities

9 as a political movement by all terms across all regions, all confessions,

10 all areas in Lebanon. This is the specificity of Future Movement. It is

11 the only political movement in Lebanon that comprises amongst its members

12 members from all confessions, religious affiliations, and various -- and

13 all regions in Lebanon.

14 Q. And notwithstanding the fact that it had its emergence after the

15 assassination of the Prime Minister, was it, in fact, born of his ideas

16 that he developed while he was still alive?

17 A. Of course. It was based on the ideas of late Prime Minister

18 Rafik Hariri calling for a multi-confessional-wide political movement.

19 He had always refused to establish his own political party. This was due

20 to various reasons. He used to say that at the time political parties

21 were synonyms to the sad events, namely, the civil war in Lebanon.

22 However, I think that it was forbidden for him to establish any political

23 movement or party. This was imposed on him by the Syrians. They did not

24 want him to establish a multi-confessional political party with a wide

25 representation across all regions in Lebanon.

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 8 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 Q. Now, when you say that the Syrians did not want him to establish

2 a multi-confessional coalition, how is it that you know that,

3 Dr. Majdalani?

4 A. I was aware of that from some indirect sources. It was totally

5 prohibited for Mr. Hariri to have his own electoral lists or candidates

6 in the Lebanese areas and regions. He was not allowed to have any

7 candidate outside of Beirut. The Syrians wanted to limit the influence

8 of Prime Minister Rafik Hariri exclusively in Beirut. Moreover, they

9 re-divided Beirut into three electoral constituencies in such a way to

10 ensure the victory of Prime Minister Hariri and his candidates in one out

11 of the three constituencies of Beirut. They wanted to reduce his

12 influence, his importance, his representation to one out of the three

13 constituencies, which means one-third of Beirut. However, they did not

14 succeed. Late Prime Minister martyr Rafik Hariri in 2000 was able to win

15 in the three constituencies of Beirut.

16 Q. Now, was one of the sources of your knowledge about the Syrian

17 position in respect of the Prime Minister's electoral lists the Prime

18 Minister himself; that is, did you have discussions with the Prime

19 Minister about his understanding of Syrian pressure to limit the scope of

20 his selection of candidates?

21 A. No, I did not discuss this with him directly, but this was

22 obvious, especially regarding the elections in North Lebanon. He was not

23 allowed to have any candidate in North Lebanon. My colleague Dr. Ahmad

24 Fatfat was chosen as a candidate and late Prime Minister Rafik Hariri

25 made one visit to Dennieh area in North Lebanon. After that he refrained

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 9 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 from any visit within the context of the electoral campaign and this is

2 because of the Syrian pressure.

3 Q. Now, following your election to the Chamber of Deputies in the

4 year 2000, can you estimate how often you met with the Prime Minister as

5 a political ally from the year 2000 until the time of his assassination?

6 A. We used to have regular meetings for the members of the Future

7 coalition, and these meetings used to be held on a weekly basis, namely,

8 on Mondays, if I remember well, at 7.00 p.m. However, this does not mean

9 that these were the only meetings. We used to hold other meetings

10 outside these weekly meetings. So we used to meet him - and I mean by

11 "we" myself and late Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. I was one of his close

12 allies and I used to pay very frequent visits to Quraitem Palace. You

13 can say almost on a daily basis.

14 Q. Now, when we come to the year 2004, say, the middle of 2004, were

15 you aware of the Prime Minister's position in respect of who should

16 become the next president of Lebanon?

17 A. No, I was not aware of the Prime Minister's position in respect

18 of who should be the next president of Lebanon. However, I used to know

19 that there are many problems between -- or opposing Prime Minister Hariri

20 and the president, back then President Emile Lahoud. I knew that late

21 Prime Minister Rafik Hariri was opposed to the extension of the mandate

22 of President Lahoud or the term of President Lahoud, but he did not

23 discuss with me any of the names of the potential people who could be

24 appointed or elected as presidents of Lebanon.

25 Q. And in respect of the possible extension of President Lahoud's

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 10 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 term - I'm dealing with the time-frame now still in the middle of

2 2004 - did you yourself have a position as to the propriety of extending

3 President Lahoud's term?

4 A. Yes, I was opposed to the extension of President Lahoud's term

5 for many reasons, and if you wish I can enumerate the reasons -- my

6 reasons for that.

7 Q. If you could summarize your reasons, I'd be most grateful.

8 A. Many reasons. First of all, President Lahoud was

9 Commander-in-Chief of the army for nine years. After that he was chosen

10 by the Syrians to become Lebanon's president. During his term he was

11 opposed to Prime Minister Hariri, opposed to all the decisions and

12 activities of Prime Minister Hariri without any logical reason or

13 justification. He was -- he was, according to my own opinion, not

14 managing or governing the country in the right way. He was opposed also

15 to the economic policies of Prime Minister Hariri. Prime Minister

16 Hariri's economic vision was based on diversifying the Lebanese economy

17 and improving the quality of services as well as the social and economic

18 standards -- living standards of the Lebanese population. Moreover,

19 President Lahoud was constantly attempting to accuse Prime Minister

20 Hariri and his close allies. He was accusing them of being corrupt. Of

21 course this is a baseless accusation.

22 President Lahoud adopted a policy that was dictated on him by the

23 Syrians. As a result, this policy was hampering all attempts to revive

24 Lebanon's economy and to improve the social and economic living standards

25 of the Lebanese. That is why I was opposed to the extension of President

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 11 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 Lahoud's term.

2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, I just have a clarification

3 there, Dr. Majdalani. You started off by saying:

4 "First of all President Lahoud was Commander-in-Chief of the army

5 for nine years."

6 What was the significance of that in your mind in relation to

7 your opposition to his continuing or being the president? If there is

8 indeed or was indeed any significance.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As an army Commander-in-Chief he

10 did not allow the Lebanese army to go to some areas in South Lebanon,

11 namely, the villages that are close to the Lebanese-Israeli border and

12 namely that these villages were constantly the subject of clashes between

13 the Lebanese and the Israelis. Prime Minister Rafik Hariri wanted to

14 have the Lebanese army deployed in all the Lebanese areas and villages so

15 that to ensure a presence of the Lebanese army everywhere. However, when

16 President Lahoud was Commander-in-Chief of the army, he was implementing

17 the orders of the Syrians.

18 Secondly, as we can read in the Lebanese Constitution, it is

19 totally forbidden for an army Commander-in-Chief to be elected as

20 president. That is why there was a necessity to amend the constitution

21 in order to enable the election of President Emile Lahoud as president of

22 the Lebanese republic. In other terms, when it was time to elect a new

23 president, he was still in his position as an army Commander-in-Chief;

24 that is why it was necessary to amend the constitution, to enable him to

25 be elected as president of Lebanon. This happened, that is, the

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 12 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 amendment of the Constitution, based or due to pressure by the Syrians so

2 that the Lebanese Parliament amends the Constitution.

3 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Dr. Atef, electing an army

4 Commander-in-Chief as a president of the Lebanese republic was not an

5 exception. As you know, also President Michel Suleiman was elected when

6 he was still an army Commander-in-Chief and the Syrians were not as

7 influential when he was elected. How do you -- what do you say about

8 that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am referring to the first time --

10 in fact, it was the second time. But let's say that under the Syrian

11 occupation it was the first time that the constitution was amended in

12 order to enable an army Commander-in-Chief to be elected as a president

13 of the republic. As to the amendment of the Constitution later on in

14 order to enable the election of President Michel Suleiman, this happened

15 during some very critical times of our history in Lebanon. This followed

16 critical times of chaos, lawlessness, what happened on the 7th of May,

17 the occupation of Beirut by an armed political faction, that is,

18 Hezbollah, and the election came as a settlement of this whole crisis.

19 He was elected as a result of the Doha Conference, when all the Lebanese

20 parties decided to meet and to elect a new president. He was elected in

21 order to save the -- this post or this position, that is, the president

22 of Lebanon.

23 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] In one of your answers to the

24 Prosecutor, you said that the positions of Mr. Lahoud, who was opposed to

25 the policies of Mr. Hariri, you said that his positions were imposed on

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 13 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 him by the Syrian officials. Why did the Syrian officials want to impose

2 such a hostile policy on President Lahoud against Prime Minister Hariri?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is very clear. The Syrians

4 never wanted Lebanon to be a free, sovereign, and independent country.

5 This was the major point of disagreement between Prime Minister

6 Rafik Hariri and the Syrians. We used to see back then that when Prime

7 Minister Rafik Hariri used to travel abroad to visit major powers, major

8 countries in the world, in order to seek assistance for Lebanon, upon his

9 return to Lebanon we used to see some pro-Syrians or even Syrian

10 officials launching a wide campaign against him and sometimes they used

11 to resort to some Christian factions, namely, the Free Patriotic

12 Movement, in order to launch such campaigns against Prime Minister

13 Rafik Hariri. They used to exploit anything against him. This is what

14 we saw when he went to Washington to attend a conference for -- to

15 support Lebanon. This is what we saw also following the Paris first and

16 Paris second conferences to support Lebanon.

17 The Syrians never wanted Lebanon to prosper. They did not want

18 Lebanon to be a free, sovereign, and independent country. They

19 considered themselves as the tutelage authorities over Lebanon and they

20 used to think that if Lebanon's economy will prosper, if the state in

21 Lebanon will grow stronger, then there will be more voices asking for the

22 Syrians' withdrawal from Lebanon. This is what happened, in fact. After

23 the liberation of South Lebanon when the Israeli forces left South

24 Lebanon, the position of Patriarch Sfeir back then in September 2000 was

25 represented or was voiced when he also asked following the Israeli's

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 14 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 withdrawal, he also asked for the withdrawal of the Syrian troops from

2 Lebanon.

3 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] In your answer you mentioned that

4 the Syrians used to use some of the Christian factions including the Free

5 Patriotic Movement at the time. Was the Free Patriotic Movement at the

6 time allied with Syria?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not what I said. I said

8 that, directly or indirectly, they used and exploited anything that could

9 help them and they directed certain people, certain Christian figures, in

10 order to wage an attack or a campaign against Prime Minister Hariri and

11 even at some points they used people from the Free Patriotic Movement

12 because, at the same time, the Syrians were trying their best to make the

13 Lebanese believe that Prime Minister Hariri wanted to Islamize Lebanon,

14 wanted to make Lebanon a Muslim country, and this is something that had

15 repercussions in the Christian community. A number of Christians were

16 convinced of that idea and believed it. This is why it was very easy for

17 them to encourage and mobilize some of the Christians and Christian

18 community against Prime Minister Hariri.

19 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Dr. Majdalani, regarding the

20 hostility towards the policies of the late Prime Minister Rafik Hariri,

21 the Syrians and -- before the year 2000, since 1991, were the Syrians

22 exercising this policy, were they adopting this hostile policy towards

23 Prime Minister Hariri?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because we need to know and we

25 need to be aware of the fact that the Syrians were the ones appointing

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 15 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 the Commander-in-Chief of the army. They were appointing the prime

2 minister, the speaker of the house, the president of the republic. And

3 when Prime Minister Hariri came to power, he came and had a wide, popular

4 base among Arab leaders and he was not brought by the Syrians. Meaning,

5 when he came to Lebanon and he became prime minister that was not done

6 thanks to the Syrians and with their help. The Syrians in fact had to

7 accept Prime Minister Hariri as president of the Council of Ministers in

8 Lebanon. And this is where the hostility and animosity started because

9 the late Prime Minister Hariri was free from this Syrian favour, from the

10 Syrian control, and they considered Prime Minister Hariri to be someone

11 -- or Prime Minister Hariri was considered by many as a savior who would

12 be able to unify Lebanon, unify the Lebanese, improve the situation in

13 Lebanon, and maybe act free from the control of the Syrians over Lebanon.

14 MR. CAMERON:

15 Q. A little while ago, Dr. Majdalani, you mentioned that there was a

16 divergence in the approaches of the Prime Minister and President Lahoud

17 as to the extent of which the Lebanese military should be present in all

18 areas of Lebanon. Now, you also mentioned, I think, that President

19 Lahoud declined to have the military go into the southern aspect of

20 Lebanon. Did I get that right?

21 A. That's right. He was even proud that he was the one who

22 prevented the cabinet from deploying the Lebanese army along the southern

23 border.

24 Q. What period of time was that, Dr. Majdalani?

25 A. That was, I think, during the time when Emile Lahoud was still

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 16 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 commander of the army. That was around the time of the presidency of the

2 late President Elias Hrawi, so after 1992, that was after 1992 because

3 Prime Minister Hariri became prime minister in 1992.

4 Q. And in brief, during that period of time, who protected Lebanon's

5 southern border in the absence of the army?

6 A. During that time there was an Israeli occupation of an area, of a

7 zone in southern Lebanon, the UNIFIL soldiers, the UN soldiers, were

8 present there and they were monitoring the situation along the border.

9 However, there was no presence of the Lebanese army but Hezbollah was

10 present in these southern areas, of course, north of the Israeli

11 occupation.

12 Q. And was it the Prime Minister's position that the Lebanese

13 military should replace Hezbollah in the south of Lebanon?

14 A. Prime Minister Hariri wanted the Lebanese state and the Lebanese

15 control to be spread all over the Lebanese territory and to be in charge

16 of it, including southern Lebanon.

17 Q. And did that necessarily mean that the Lebanese army would

18 replace Hezbollah's presence in the south?

19 A. Of course, of course. Hezbollah in the south would have been

20 upset by that, especially after the year 2000, after the liberation of

21 that occupied zone, the zone that was occupied by Israel. After the end

22 of the Israeli occupation, Hezbollah forces were deployed and spread all

23 over that area. So Prime Minister Hariri wanted the Lebanese army to

24 deploy there in order to secure the border with the help of the Lebanese

25 army. He wanted to stop any military operations of all sorts along the

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 17 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 border, operations that could start as small clashes and could lead to a

2 war that could destroy Lebanon or parts of Lebanon. And this is what was

3 in fact happening from time to time.

4 Q. And from the year 2000 when there was an Israeli withdrawal from

5 that stretch of land up until the time of the Prime Minister's

6 assassination, did Hezbollah's military forces continue to be spread

7 across the southern border of Lebanon?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. During that same period of time, from the year 2000 up until the

10 time of his death, did you understand that it was the Prime Minister's

11 position that that area should be controlled in a protection sense by the

12 Lebanese military?

13 A. That's right, that's right, because he was afraid of military

14 operations conducted by Hezbollah and he was afraid of the Israeli

15 response to that.

16 Q. And do you know in the latter years of his life, 2004/2005,

17 whether there continued to be a resistance to the Prime Minister's goal

18 of increasing the scope of the Lebanese army's responsibilities in

19 southern Lebanon?

20 A. I think that there was an objection to the deployment of the

21 Lebanese army, this is why the Lebanese army did not deploy along the

22 border, and that objection was expressed by the Syrians because they

23 wanted to protect Hezbollah. And at the same time there were constant

24 armament of Hezbollah, arms were going through the Syrian borders, and

25 this is how in 2006 we saw hundreds of rockets that were launched from

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 18 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 Hezbollah bases as a response to the Israeli raids waged against Lebanon

2 during the 2006 war. This explains as well the fact that the Syrians

3 were arming Hezbollah, they were facilitating the Iranian weapons being

4 delivered to Hezbollah, but they were preventing the armament of the

5 Lebanese army with the objective of giving Hezbollah more power, more

6 strength than the Lebanese regular army.

7 Q. And did you have discussions with the Prime Minister in those

8 latter years, 2004/2005, about this issue?

9 A. In unofficial meetings we would discuss a number of issues,

10 including this particular topic, because the army was being prevented

11 from deploying all over the Lebanese territory. And we would always hear

12 that they are deployed there so there is no need for the army to be

13 there, and I'm talking about the Syrians.

14 Q. When you say "they are deployed there," unless I misunderstood

15 you, a moment ago you had referred to Hezbollah being active in the

16 southern border. Can you explain what you mean by "they"?

17 A. By "they" I mean before the year 2000 or before 2005 the Syrians

18 and Hezbollah were both present.

19 Q. And was it your understanding as a Member of Parliament that

20 Syria and Hezbollah, as one a military and the other a quasi military

21 presence, worked co-operatively together in southern Lebanon?

22 MR. EDWARDS: Your Honour, this is going way beyond the scope of

23 the witness's witness statement. We haven't had notice of any of this

24 evidence thus far. We did receive an investigator's note this morning

25 dated 28th of April, yes, setting out three very short, discrete issues

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 19 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 that this witness might speak to that goes beyond the scope of his

2 witness statements. But for the last 20 minutes or so we have been

3 hearing a significant amount of evidence that, in my submission, goes

4 well beyond the scope of the witness's statements thus far and the

5 relevance of which I'm afraid I can't see.

6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Edwards, is your complaint about the

7 substance of what the witness is saying or it is the fact that it is this

8 witness who is saying it?

9 MR. EDWARDS: Well, it's both. Dealing with your second point

10 first, I have an objection to this witness giving evidence of this issue

11 because we have had no notice of it at all. Going on then to your first

12 point, Your Honour, the substance of what this witness is saying is,

13 seems to me, entirely irrelevant to the indictment that is before the

14 Court.

15 MR. CAMERON: I think my friend is correct that the evidence most

16 recently covered by this witness does not appear in his statements.

17 You'll recall that there were several questions asked from the

18 Trial Chamber which are now being followed up in this area. So my friend

19 is correct that this evidence does not appear in the original witness

20 statements. The solution for that is not to prohibit the evidence of

21 course, but if necessary give Defence counsel time to prepare. If they

22 need an adjournment, they can certainly ask for one, but these are

23 natural, follow-up questions to answers that were given as a result of

24 questions posed by the Bench.

25 On the second issue, the relationship between the Syrian regime

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 20 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 and Hezbollah will always be the source of some comment by the

2 Prosecution in these proceedings, and that's one reason why so much

3 evidence has been led in respect of the political background in this

4 case. As you know, it's the position of the Prosecution that this was a

5 political assassination which motives -- the motives for which likely lay

6 beyond the personal motives of the particular accused. Notwithstanding

7 that, the relationship between Hezbollah, as an armed entity within both

8 Beirut and other areas of Lebanon, and the Syrian intelligence network

9 and the Syrian regime is of significance in this case, in my respectful

10 submission.

11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Edwards, as you know, there has been a

12 fair amount of cross-examination by Defence counsel of other witnesses of

13 the relationship which Mr. Cameron just spoke about; that is, between

14 Hezbollah and Mr. Hariri, Mr. Hariri and Syria, and Syria and Hezbollah.

15 How much different do you say this particular evidence is? Why does this

16 go beyond the scope of the Trial Chamber's ruling in November last year

17 about allowing the Prosecution to call evidence of the political

18 background and possible non-private motives for Mr. Hariri's

19 assassination?

20 MR. EDWARDS: Well, I preface my submissions by saying that it

21 was our position that none of it was relevant but the Trial Chamber found

22 against us. And presented with the evidence that we have been presented

23 with, many, if not most, of the Defence teams have cross-examined

24 appropriately. What evidence has been led thus far, cross-examination on

25 that evidence has been limited to matters relating to the political

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 21 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 relationships between Mr. Hariri, the leadership of Hezbollah, and where

2 that fits in with the Lebanese political relationship with Syria. We're

3 now, however, going well beyond that and getting into the nitty-gritty of

4 Syria and Hezbollah's military activities in southern Lebanon. I'm just

5 trying to find the terms of the last question by my learned friend. Let

6 me just a moment, Your Honour.

7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: The exact question was:

8 "And was it your understanding" --

9 MR. EDWARDS: Yes.

10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: -- "as a Member of Parliament that Syria and

11 Hezbollah, as one a military and the other a quasi military presence,

12 worked co-operatively together in southern Lebanon?"

13 MR. EDWARDS: Yes.

14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Would there be actually any controversy in

15 the expected response?

16 MR. EDWARDS: Your Honour, it's not a question of controversy or

17 not. It's the fact that -- whereas up to now the evidence being heard

18 has related to the political activities of Hezbollah for the most part,

19 we're now going into a quite different area of evidence relating to

20 military activity of Hezbollah. And I would submit that that is

21 distinguishable and goes well beyond what we understood the Prosecution

22 would be relying on in their attempts to set out the political context

23 that existed as between Mr. Hariri and the Syrian leadership, as it were,

24 which was argued back in November. We're now going into a quite

25 different area of factual evidence, in my submission.

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 22 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron.

2 MR. CAMERON: It was never the Prosecution's intention that a

3 political assassination was carried out by political figures; that was

4 not the position ever of the Prosecution. And we do not take that

5 position now. As the evidence will unfold, you'll discover - and almost

6 all of this has been alluded to in the opening statements - this

7 assassination was the result of a very well-planned, well-executed,

8 well-funded, and, one might inevitably say, military operation. It was

9 not -- I'm not sure that I really understand my friend's objection that

10 the evidence led thus far was related to the political relationship

11 between Hezbollah and Syria or other parties. That's not really the

12 subject of the indictment. The subject of the indictment relates to this

13 very well-planned, well-executed operation which assassinated a prime

14 minister for political reasons but not by politicians. And so the two

15 major entities at the time in Lebanon were Syria and Hezbollah. And the

16 indictment has identified each of the five accused as supporters of

17 Hezbollah. So the connection between Hezbollah and Syria is of

18 significance in this case, not of a political nature but in both sides'

19 capacity to contribute to an assassination of this nature.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, Mr. Edwards, the Trial Chamber

22 is of the view that the evidence which the Prosecution is attempting to

23 lead is within the ruling we made in November last year as to political

24 evidence, but we are of the view it is at the perimeters, not necessarily

25 the far perimeters, but it is peripheral within that ruling. So we will

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 23 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 allow some limited evidence of this, but we'd ask the Prosecutor to

2 reformulate the question into a less leading form and try and limit the

3 scope of this to try and make it as short as possible. So that's our

4 ruling.

5 MR. CAMERON: Thank you.

6 Q. As a Member of Parliament in 2004 and into 2005, you've indicated

7 that you were aware that both Hezbollah and Syrian forces had

8 responsibility for the protection of the borders of Lebanon in its

9 southern region. Have I understood your evidence so far correctly?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, did you have an understanding - again, as a Member of

12 Parliament - did you have an understanding as to the manner in which

13 Hezbollah and the Syrian military acted with each other in southern

14 Lebanon throughout that period?

15 A. The co-operation between the Syrians and Hezbollah has always

16 been a very close one, close co-operation, at all levels, political,

17 military, economic, et cetera. We used to consider that this

18 co-operation was responsible for the situation in South Lebanon, where

19 there was no presence for the Lebanese state. This is what I can say.

20 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] What we understood, Dr. Atef, from

21 the Prosecutor's question is as if the Syrian troops were present in

22 South Lebanon.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a Syrian presence in

24 Lebanon until 2005. Until 2005, the Syrian troops were deployed all over

25 Lebanon. Maybe their presence in some areas of South Lebanon was less

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 24 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 visible but they were present all over Lebanon. The heaviest military

2 presence in South Lebanon is of course that of Hezbollah, but the

3 co-operation was still valid.

4 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Was there a Syrian presence at the

5 borders of Lebanon, in South Lebanon?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not say "at the borders of

7 Lebanon and South Lebanon," however, in reality, on the ground we saw a

8 presence of the Hezbollah in South Lebanon and some Syrian presence in

9 South Lebanon, but there was no presence whatsoever of the Lebanese army

10 in South Lebanon. There -- the presence of the Lebanese army in South

11 Lebanon came after Resolution 1701.

12 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Do you agree with me that the

13 Syrian military troops were not or had nothing to do with the protection

14 of Lebanon's southern borders?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not saying that the Syrian

16 troops were present at Lebanon's southern borders. I did not say so. I

17 said that the Syrian presence, be it in military terms or in intelligence

18 terms, was present in South Lebanon based on a close co-operation with

19 the Hezbollah. However, at Lebanon's southern borders we had UNIFIL and

20 Hezbollah.

21 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor counsel asked you

22 about the presence of the Syrian army at the border and co-operation

23 between the Syrian army and Hezbollah in that particular area of Lebanon.

24 From your answer we understood something in the sense that it was the

25 Syrians and Hezbollah who prevented the Lebanese army from deploying at

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 25 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 the Lebanese southern borders. Is that true? Is this your opinion?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, your question can be

3 divided into two folds. First of all, I said that there was a

4 co-operation put in place between Hezbollah and the Syrians and this

5 co-operation was seen in South Lebanon. However, did this co-operation

6 prevent the Lebanese army from being deployed in South Lebanon? Of

7 course there were clear Syrian orders preventing the Lebanese army from

8 being deployed in South Lebanon. This was very clear. I said a few

9 minutes earlier that President Emile Lahoud was taking pride in his

10 position, that is, to prevent the Lebanese army from going to South

11 Lebanon. He was very proud about that. He was very proud that he left

12 all the affairs, all the situation in South Lebanon up to the Hezbollah

13 militia and to the Syrian army.

14 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] How did President Lahoud justify

15 his position that you qualified as being a pride, that he was proud about

16 that? He said that he did not want to turn the Lebanese army as a

17 guardian of the Israeli border. What was his justification?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What you have just said,

19 Your Honour, was the public version of his justification. So this was

20 the public version of the justifications provided by President Lahoud.

21 He used to say that he did not want to turn the Lebanese army into a

22 guardian of the Israeli borders. On the contrary, he wanted to protect

23 the resistance. I do not see how he could protect the resistance, as if

24 the Lebanese army was opposed to the resistance. This is totally

25 unacceptable.

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 26 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 It is very clear that the main reason was to leave that area of

2 Lebanon in the hands of Hezbollah and to leave it subject to the orders

3 and instructions of Hezbollah and the Syrians, who used to think that

4 they could use this area or this front at any time for their own purposes

5 and agenda. How could an army Commander-in-Chief or a Lebanese president

6 take -- how could he take pride in his position, that is, to prevent his

7 own army, his own regular national army from deploying into a Lebanese

8 territory?

9 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] In order to finish with this issue

10 regarding the Lebanese borders, I would like to know how would you

11 describe the relationship between Hezbollah and the Lebanese army in that

12 particular area or in Lebanon in general?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know. I'm not a military

14 expert and I was not close to the army or to the army command or to the

15 Hezbollah command, but, in fact, the Lebanese army was constantly

16 preserving and safe-guarding Lebanon, including the resistance. But it

17 was also obvious -- or rather, this became clearer and more obvious later

18 on, it became clearer to us that the Syrians did not have any position to

19 strengthen the Lebanese army or to arm the Lebanese -- to provide the

20 Lebanese army with the appropriate weapons. They would help or assist

21 the Lebanese army from time to time, but this was a kind of a superficial

22 gesture. They did not attempt or try to help the Lebanese army and to

23 strengthen it in order to turn it into a stronger army.

24 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Were the Syrians the only players

25 or actors at the regional level or at the international level that did

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 27 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 not want to arm the Lebanese army or were there other actors?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Syrians were the only ones when

3 it came to Lebanon. I do not know about regional actors. When it came

4 to Lebanon, it was very clear that the Syrians had the upper hand and

5 decide everything in Lebanon, and I can clearly state that Lebanon was

6 under Syrian occupation.

7 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] I don't think you gave me an

8 answer regarding the relationship between the Lebanese army and

9 Hezbollah.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think -- I think that this

11 relationship was a good one, I think so. I mean, I think that the

12 question perhaps might be and should be addressed either to the

13 directorate general of the Lebanese army or to the directorate of

14 Hezbollah, not to me.

15 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] You were asked about the

16 relationship between the Syrian army and Hezbollah and you gave an

17 adjective to that relationship as a Member of the Lebanese Parliament

18 that could also be applied to the relationship between the Lebanese army

19 and Hezbollah.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I said that the

21 relationship was close and tight between the Syrian army and Hezbollah as

22 a result of everything that was happening and things that were observed

23 by everyone. As for the relationship between Hezbollah and the Lebanese

24 army, I can say that they were normal relations. But other than that, I

25 do not know.

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 28 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 MR. CAMERON:

2 Q. I'd like to return now to the question long ago asked about your

3 position in respect of President Lahoud's extension and the Prime

4 Minister's position. And I think that you indicated that in mid -- by

5 mid-August, in any event, you had both opposed the idea that President

6 Lahoud's term be extended. Now --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you speak publicly on this issue?

9 A. Yes. There was -- at some point I was invited to appear on a

10 television station, NBN television station. And before I went to the

11 television, I passed by the late Prime Minister Rafik Hariri to seek his

12 opinion and asked for general guide-lines, especially that it was clear

13 at the time that there was a lot of tension, a lot of stress in the

14 political atmosphere in general regarding the extension of President

15 Lahoud's term. So I told him that I was going --

16 Q. Dr. Majdalani, I'm sorry to interrupt you, and it's not because

17 you weren't saying something in answer to my question. I wanted to know

18 two things before we carried on. One is: The television station you

19 described, NBN, what does NBN stand for, please?

20 A. I think this television channel is a station that is very close

21 to Speaker Nabih Berri, so perhaps it stands for Nabih Berri -- I don't

22 know --

23 JUDGE AKOUM: It is National Broadcasting Network.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but in Lebanon it is widely

25 known as Nabih Berri Network.

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 29 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 MR. CAMERON:

2 Q. Is it a widely -- does it reach a lot of listeners or is it a

3 relatively local station?

4 A. This channel, this station has its popular base, but of course it

5 is not considered as one of the first television stations in Lebanon in

6 terms of viewers and audiences, but of course it had its popular base and

7 there are people who watch it.

8 Q. My second question before you continued was: When did this

9 happen? Do you remember which month it occurred?

10 A. That happened maybe in July, July of 2004.

11 Q. All right. Now, I had interrupted you at the point where you had

12 received the invitation from NBN television station and that you were

13 going to seek the Prime Minister's counsel as to what you might say.

14 Could you carry on please, then.

15 A. I was saying that I passed by the late Prime Minister

16 Rafik Hariri to seek his opinion and his guidance regarding this matter,

17 especially that I had told him that I was planning on declaring my

18 opposition to the extension of President Lahoud's term. So he told me,

19 "You can give your opinion and say it, but you need to specify that this

20 is your personal opinion and not the opinion of the bloc. And you need

21 to choose your words carefully." So I went --

22 Q. Dr. Majdalani, we're going to be a little bit of time with this

23 and since it's come time for the lunch break, I wonder whether we could

24 pause here and then resume shortly after lunch, if that's convenient.

25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Yes, thank you. We're taking a shortly -- a

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 30 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 slightly earlier lunch break and a slightly longer one today. So

2 bon appétit and we'll see you after lunch, Dr. Majdalani.

3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 2.05 p.m.

5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Welcome back, Doctor.

6 Mr. Cameron, please continue.

7 MR. CAMERON:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Majdalani. When we broke for lunch, you were

9 just about to tell us about a circumstance where you had sought the Prime

10 Minister's advice before going on a television show to discuss your

11 position in respect of the possibility that President Lahoud's

12 extension -- President Lahoud's term of office might be extended. And as

13 I understand it, the Prime Minister said, "Make sure that you make clear

14 that this is your opinion and be somewhat moderate in what you say."

15 Have I got that generally right?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. So you go on the television show and do you follow the Prime

18 Minister's advice?

19 A. Of course, and this is what I said. I said that I preferred not

20 to have the extension of President Lahoud's term but that this was my own

21 personal opinion, it was my opinion and not that of the bloc.

22 Q. And what happened as a result of that?

23 A. After that the Prime Minister called me, Prime Minister Hariri,

24 and asked me to go to his residence. When I went there I saw Mr. Adnan

25 Arakji, who was a Member of Parliament close to the Syrians, and he was

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 31 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 there because the Syrians had told him why -- or why did the bloc take a

2 decision to refuse the extension. And he came to reproach this position

3 to Prime Minister Hariri. When I arrived there Prime Minister Hariri

4 asked me, "What did you say on the NBN television channel?" I told him

5 that I said I was in favour -- or rather, I was not intending on

6 approving the extension of President Lahoud's term and I said that this

7 was my own personal opinion and that the bloc, the parliamentary bloc,

8 had not met yet in order to give its opinion on the matter. Then Prime

9 Minister Hariri looked at Mr. Adnan Arakji and told him, "There's no

10 problem. What's the problem in that? Atef was expressing his own

11 personal view, his own personal opinion and not the opinion of the bloc."

12 And the issue ended there.

13 Q. How did you know that Mr. Arakji was expressing a view on behalf

14 of Syria as opposed to his own view to the Prime Minister in his

15 complaint about you?

16 A. He arrived at the Prime Minister's residence and said that the

17 Syrians had contacted him and asked him about what was happening inside

18 the bloc and how did the bloc take that decision to refuse the extension

19 of President Lahoud's term. And they asked him, they asked him to go to

20 Prime Minister Hariri and ask him about it. This is why he went to see

21 Prime Minister Hariri and he asked him and reproached him for the

22 position of the bloc regarding the extension. And when I came and

23 clarified that this was my own personal view, then he was convinced --

24 maybe he was not convinced, but at least he conveyed that message and for

25 sure he conveyed it to the Syrians.

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 32 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 Q. Now, did you hear that from Mr. Arakji or did you hear it from

2 the Prime Minister who relayed to you what Mr. Arakji had told him?

3 A. I heard that from Prime Minister Rafik Hariri.

4 Q. And did he tell you that in Mr. Arakji's presence?

5 A. Yes. Yes. Mr. Adnan Arakji was present at the time and he did

6 not object to this.

7 Q. Now, prior to the extension actually occurring, did you have any

8 other conversations with any other Members of Parliament about the issue?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you recall having a conversation with Dr. Nasser Kandil prior

11 to the extension?

12 A. Yes. The conversation with Mr. Nasser Kandil was ongoing because

13 we were neighbours at Parliament. My office was adjacent to his office,

14 and we met very often and talked quite often. I remember that a few

15 months prior to the extension he told me that we had to approve and vote

16 for the extension because refusing and opposing the extension of

17 President Lahoud's term would be considered as an insult to the Syrian

18 regime, because the Syrian regime and Dr. Bashar Al-Assad personally

19 wanted to extend President Lahoud's term and if that did not happen, if

20 the extension did not take place and if we were opposed to that

21 extension, that means we were subjugated to the will of the Americans.

22 And this would be considered as an insult to the Syrian regime.

23 Q. All right. So the time of the extension arrives, there's a

24 meeting of the Council of Ministers and then there's a vote in

25 Parliament. And how do you vote in respect of the constitutional

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 33 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 amendment to extend the term of President Lahoud by three years?

2 A. In fact, and unfortunately I say this, we submitted -- or we were

3 threatened, we were subject to threats by Syria, and Prime Minister

4 Hariri asked us to vote in favour of the amendment of the constitution in

5 a way to allow the extension of President Lahoud's term. Prior to that,

6 there was a meeting with a Syrian security official in Beirut. At the

7 time he was General Mohammed Khallouf. He tried to contact me on a

8 number of occasions and at the end I talked to him and he asked me to go

9 and meet with him at his office.

10 Q. When was that approximately?

11 A. It was around the end of August before the extension, maybe two

12 weeks prior to the extension approximately.

13 Q. Was it -- were you aware that the Prime Minister had gone to

14 Damascus to meet with Bashar Al-Assad, President Assad?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you -- just hang on a second, sir. Do you remember whether

17 your meeting with General Khallouf was before or after the Prime

18 Minister's visit to Damascus?

19 A. It was after the visit.

20 Q. So if the visit to Damascus was on the 26th of August, it was

21 sometime between the 26th of August and the 2nd of September; is that

22 correct?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. Do you know when you were advised by the Prime Minister -- or let

25 me -- I don't want to lead you in this area.

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 34 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 How did it come to pass that you altered your position and voted

2 in favour? Was it because of something the Prime Minister said to you?

3 A. No. In reality we were all aware, indirectly or directly, of the

4 atmosphere that was prevailing during the meeting between Prime Minister

5 Rafik Hariri and the Syrian president. The meeting lasted for ten

6 minutes, and at the time we were at Quraitem and we were waiting for the

7 Prime Minister to return. And we were told that the Prime Minister will

8 not be coming to his residence at Quraitem, but that he instead went to

9 his residence in the mountains. When we learned that the meeting only

10 lasted for ten minutes and that Prime Minister Hariri will not be coming

11 to his residence in Quraitem, of course we had a feeling that that

12 meeting was not a successful one. After that we learned that Prime

13 Minister Hariri went to see Mr. Walid Jumblatt and that was in the

14 presence of Mr. Marwan Hamade and we discussed what was said during that

15 meeting, what Prime Minister Hariri had said, and what he was told, that

16 if he refused to extend President Lahoud's term, President Bashar

17 Al-Assad would destroy Lebanon over his head and the head of the

18 Lebanese.

19 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, we need to know who "we" is,

20 please.

21 MR. CAMERON: Yes.

22 Q. Did you speak to the Prime Minister directly on that issue during

23 that period of time?

24 A. No, no, because I knew the gist of what was said in that meeting

25 and I did not want to further embarrass Prime Minister Hariri by asking

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 35 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 him about it. As far as "we" are concerned, by "we" I mean some of the

2 MPs and some of the people who are close to Prime Minister Rafik Hariri.

3 Q. So from whom did you hear the results of the Damascus meeting?

4 A. I do not recall specifically, but I think that I heard that from

5 Dr. Ghattas Khoury.

6 Q. And out of a sense of delicacy you didn't pursue it directly with

7 the Prime Minister?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. Now, how many days later would you estimate that you had the

10 meeting that you referred to a moment ago with General Mohammed Khallouf?

11 A. I don't -- I cannot say for sure. All I can say is that -- days

12 but I cannot say how many days for sure.

13 Q. Okay. That's fine. And you indicated that he had phoned you a

14 number of times in order to arrange a meeting. You had been initially

15 reluctant and then you agreed to meet him at his office; is that right?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. And where was his office located?

18 A. The area was known as the Beau Rivage area.

19 MR. CAMERON: For the benefit of the Tribunal, this has been --

20 the location of this office has been dealt with through Dr. Youssef and I

21 had not intended to show the Zawarib map book to Dr. Majdalani.

22 Q. Did you go to his office?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And --

25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, can you just remind us so it

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 36 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 matches up with the transcript which exhibit it was I think he marked it

2 on -- just so we have a clear reference or connection between the

3 different witnesses and the different days.

4 MR. CAMERON: Of course. If you give me a few minutes, we'll

5 find that out for you.

6 Q. And how did it go once you got into the office? What was said by

7 you? What was said by him?

8 A. After the normal exchange of greetings, he told me that his

9 authority - which means the regime - he told me that they had decided to

10 extend the term of President Emile Lahoud. And he was asking me to

11 approve the extension of President Lahoud's term in the Parliament. He

12 had heard me earlier stating that I'd rather not approve the extension of

13 the mandate for many reasons, namely, for the sake of Lebanon's

14 interests, for the sake of the political life in Lebanon, et cetera.

15 However, he insisted and he told me that: "The authority or the regime

16 asks me to ask you to approve the extension." And he told me that: "We

17 are present everywhere and whoever does not abide by our orders, he

18 should be responsible for his own safety and shall bear the

19 responsibility." I took it as a direct threat, as if he was telling me

20 that should I oppose the amendment, there shall be a retaliatory act.

21 And everybody knew how the Syrian regime would treat whoever does not

22 follow their orders.

23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Dr. Majdalani, what was your understanding

24 of what General Khallouf's authority to say this was at the time?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The authority was represented by

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 37 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 the Syrian president himself. It is obvious that the Syrian regime is

2 not a democratic one and that the decision is -- any decision made by the

3 Syrian regime is a unilateral decision made by one person.

4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I'm just asking you about your understanding

5 of General Khallouf's authority to say what he said.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, back then in Lebanon,

7 in Beirut, everywhere, it was clear that the Syrian -- that the

8 Lebanese-Syrian security regime was controlling everything, all the

9 details in the lives of the Lebanese people, every Lebanese citizen,

10 namely, those who are in the political realm, namely, ministers,

11 deputies, et cetera. That is why the security situation was controlled

12 by the Syrians and the Lebanese agencies or entities that were following

13 the Syrians' orders.

14 To give you an example, in one occasion the person who was in

15 charge of the personal security of Mr. Rafik Hariri, namely, Mr. Yahya

16 El-Arab, Abou-Tareq, so he told me that someone - I don't know if he --

17 it was Rustom Ghazaleh or Ghazi Kanaan - one of them asked Abou-Tareq,

18 "What do you know in terms of security, security details?" So Abou-Tareq

19 replied to that Syrian official, "I know two things when it comes to

20 security. First of all, my loyalty and affection to Mr. Rafik Hariri and

21 your protection," which means the protection provided by the Syrians.

22 I'm giving you this example so that you can clearly understand how the

23 lives of all the Lebanese citizens depended on the acts of the Syrian

24 regime and the Syrian security apparatus.

25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you. If we could just go back to

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 38 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 General Khallouf for a moment. I was asking you about why you

2 believed - if that was the case - that he was speaking for Mr. Assad,

3 President Assad? Can you just please concentrate on General Khallouf.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I shall repeat. When he told me

5 the authority or the administration wanted that, I personally knew that

6 it was the Syrian president who controlled everything. That is why I

7 know that this was or he was conveying an order from the Syrian

8 President, Bashar Al-Assad.

9 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Dr. Majdalani, did you know if

10 General Khallouf contacted any of your colleagues, other MPs, from the

11 Hariri bloc?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I knew that he contacted

13 other colleagues, namely, late MP Walid Eido. I also knew that

14 Rustom Ghazaleh, who had his headquarters in the Beqaa and who was in

15 charge of the security in Lebanon, had also asked some of my colleagues

16 to abide by the same order or instruction.

17 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Hadn't Prime Minister Hariri given

18 them his reply regarding the extension?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but they wanted to make sure

20 that every one of us got the message. They wanted to make sure that

21 every one of us is aware of the position of the Syrian president and also

22 aware of what could happen should they decide not to abide by their

23 orders.

24 MR. CAMERON: We're having a little trouble locating that other

25 reference, so the simplest thing to do to keep it clean, I think,

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 39 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 perhaps, is to take the witness to the item that appears at position 20

2 on the presentation queue. This is the Zawarib atlas of Beirut which has

3 previously been introduced as Exhibit P298. And if you could go to

4 page 49 of the PDF which is -- representing pages 89 to 90 of the atlas

5 at ERN 60298229.

6 Q. Now, if you were to look at that, do you see the area that you

7 described as the Beau Rivage area on the map?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. CAMERON: I wonder if the clerk might assist Mr. -- or

10 Dr. Majdalani in drawing a nice circle around in -- a bold circle so it

11 can't be mistaken.

12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Can you make it - yes, thank you - quite

13 large.

14 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Are you able to put a cross to zero in a bit

16 more on where the office was.

17 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right. Thank you. We will make that

19 Exhibit 419 [Realtime transcript read in error "P409"] which is

20 Dr. Majdalani's marking on Exhibit P298, the location of -- was it

21 General Khallouf's office?

22 MR. CAMERON: Yes.

23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: In 2004.

24 MR. CAMERON:

25 Q. Just following up with --

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 40 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron.

2 MR. CAMERON: Yes, of course.

3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I think I said "Exhibit 419," P419. The

4 transcript said "409." That's all.

5 MR. CAMERON:

6 Q. Just following up on the Trial Chamber's questions, what did you

7 understand that General Khallouf's responsibilities were in Lebanon?

8 A. General Khallouf was responsible for the security in Beirut.

9 Prior to that, he was responsible for the security in Tripoli and North

10 Lebanon. Later, when Rustom Ghazaleh was appointed in Anjar,

11 General Khallouf was reassigned to serve in Beirut after he was serving

12 in North Lebanon.

13 Q. What was the hierarchical relationship, do you know, between

14 Brigadier-General Ghazaleh and General Khallouf?

15 A. Brigadier-General Ghazaleh was the -- had the higher rank and

16 General Khallouf was following or reporting to him.

17 Q. Now, how did you feel about what General Khallouf had said to

18 you?

19 A. I felt that they were determined, or rather, that Bashar Al-Assad

20 was determined to extend President Lahoud's term and that he would not

21 allow anyone to hamper his plan. That is why I had some fears and

22 concerns when it came to my own personal security and also for Lebanon,

23 especially after what I heard about what was told to Prime Minister

24 Hariri by the Syrian president, that is, when he told him, "If you will

25 not extend the term of President Lahoud, I shall break Lebanon over your

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 41 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 head and over that of Jumblatt."

2 Q. Now, did you go to Prime Minister Hariri and tell him what had

3 happened at General Khallouf's office?

4 A. Yes. I went to see him. I told him what happened and his only

5 response was: "That's okay. Fine."

6 Q. And you switched your position, then, your former public

7 position, and voted in favour of the extension by voting in favour of the

8 constitutional amendment. And in a nutshell can you tell us why you did

9 that, what was the principal reason?

10 A. The principal reason was that I was afraid for Lebanon's future,

11 for Prime Minister Hariri and for myself, my own security. In fact,

12 after that interview I gave to the NBN, it was obvious that any position

13 by any MP from Mr. Hariri's bloc was considered to be the own position of

14 Prime Minister Hariri. That is why I changed my position and I voted in

15 favour of the amendment, for the extension of the president's term. I

16 did not want to embarrass Prime Minister Hariri and also I wanted to

17 protect my country.

18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. -- Dr. Majdalani, was the principal

19 reason for you changing your bloc -- sorry, your vote, your intention to

20 vote against Mr. Lahoud's extension, to vote for it, was the principal

21 reason because of what General Khallouf had said to you or was it a

22 combination of things?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was the result of what

24 General Khallouf had told me and also what I had heard in the same

25 context and more precisely what I had heard about the meeting between

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 42 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 Prime Minister Hariri and President Assad.

2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Can I put it in the theoretical or

3 hypothetical. I know it's very difficult, but you do have the benefit of

4 hindsight here. Had you not had the meeting with General Khallouf at all

5 and you had had no personal message, as you've conveyed to us in your

6 testimony, but had just had conversations with Mr. Hariri's associates,

7 do you think you would still have changed your intention? What I'm

8 saying is without the conversation with General Khallouf, do you think

9 you might have voted against Mr. -- or President Lahoud's extension?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I would have endorsed the

11 position of Prime Minister Hariri because I am a member of the Future

12 Movement, I am one of the MPs in that bloc, and all of us MPs in that

13 bloc we used to endorse the position of Prime Minister Hariri whenever it

14 came to critical issues and matters regarding Lebanon's future. I don't

15 know exactly, but as we say in French, "ça va sans dire," it was obvious.

16 Our coalition met before the vote on the extension and we decided that we

17 would vote in favour of the amendment and extension of President Lahoud's

18 term. So I was abiding by the decision taken by the whole bloc.

19 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: If my memory serves me correctly, didn't

20 Dr. Ghattas Khoury vote against it although he was a member of

21 Mr. Hariri's bloc? That's just my memory of the evidence. I think

22 you're nodding. Why didn't you take the same position as him?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not Dr. Ghattas Khoury to

24 answer right now. However, Dr. Ghattas Khoury had his own reasons, his

25 personal reasons, and I think that Prime Minister Rafik Hariri understood

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 43 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 his reasons and he gave him the freedom to take whatever decision he

2 deems appropriate, even though he had insisted on him to be aligned with

3 the decision of the whole bloc. However, Dr. Ghattas Khoury had some

4 particular conditions or circumstances.

5 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] What is this particular

6 circumstance or condition, is it because he was a candidate for the post

7 or position of the president?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course not. Dr. Ghattas Khoury

9 is a Maronite and he was acting as a liaison or a mediator between Prime

10 Minister Rafik Hariri and the Bristol Gathering. And given this position

11 and given that he was a Maronite, I think that he had some particular

12 circumstances. I am an Orthodox and I don't have to worry about

13 anything.

14 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Was Mr. Khoury asked to meet with

15 the Syrian security officials as it was the case for you?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Actually, I have no idea about it.

17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: It had nothing to do with you both being

18 doctors?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dr. Ghattas is a surgeon; I'm a

20 neurologist. So I maybe was able to understand more about the nervous

21 system and people's psychologies.

22 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Dr. Majdalani, honestly, was the

23 main reason the fact that it was President Lahoud himself or was it the

24 idea of extending the term or not extending, so that it was a

25 non-democratic procedure?

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 44 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was both, both reasons,

2 especially that extending the term of President Lahoud came after the

3 extension of President Hrawi's term, and we had seen by ourselves the

4 negative repercussions of that extension on the economy, financial

5 situation of Lebanon. The extension of President Hrawi. So Prime

6 Minister Hariri was convinced that the extension of a president's term is

7 not only something that is contrary to the democracy, it was something

8 that is also harmful and prejudicial for the country. In addition to the

9 fact that it was President Lahoud and all the disagreements and how he

10 was practicing his mandate.

11 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] And is it the case also for the

12 extension of the Parliament's mandate and all the other extensions of

13 positions and posts?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I do not think so. We are

15 not here to discuss the extension of the Parliament's mandate and term.

16 All I want to say is that the extension -- the latest extension of the

17 parliamentary mandate actually saved the country from a political vacuum

18 and a situation of chaos. And even until this day, the country, Lebanon,

19 is under threat of a political vacuum, it is threatened of a complete

20 paralysis of its constitutional institutions and this is why we need to

21 have a meeting, a dialogue, to -- a founding dialogue for changing the

22 entire system and the regime and this is something that we need to think

23 about.

24 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Thank you for this clarification.

25 MR. CAMERON:

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 45 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 Q. You mentioned the Bristol Group a moment ago. Did you have any

2 involvement in the development of the Bristol Gathering, as it became

3 known?

4 A. No. I used to meet with Dr. Ghattas and we discussed this issue

5 and this topic; however, my participation was limited to this.

6 Q. And based upon your years with the Prime Minister, did you

7 have -- did you come to have an understanding of how he governed himself

8 in respect of the Syrian regime, what his general approach was?

9 A. Prime Minister Rafik Hariri knew very well and with certainty

10 that Lebanon could not and will not be a viable country without

11 collaboration, close collaboration and co-operation with Syria. And he

12 had that famous saying that Lebanon cannot be governed against Syria and

13 cannot be governed by Syria. And that meant that he wanted Lebanon to be

14 independent, to be free, sovereign, and he wanted to co-operate with

15 Syria. He considered Syria to be a brotherly country, a neighbouring

16 country, and he wanted truly to co-operate and collaborate with Syria.

17 He went even further because he had certain ideas to establish a joint

18 Arab market, such as the European joint markets and common markets, that

19 would start with Lebanon and Syria. That was the opinion and the vision

20 of Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. That was his vision for the future of

21 the area and the future of the Arab countries and the Arab peoples. He

22 wanted to see close collaboration and co-operation between the various

23 Arab countries and the centre of that co-operation would be the

24 co-operation that would be established between Lebanon and Syria because

25 these two countries are complementary.

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 46 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 Q. Now, prior to the extension of President Lahoud's term, you

2 indicated that you had been spoken to by both Dr. Kandil and the late

3 Adnan Arakji and that one of them, in fact, had been your neighbour in

4 the parliamentary offices. Were both those gentlemen also part of the

5 Prime Minister's bloc of candidates?

6 A. Yes. They were part of the Prime Minister's parliamentary bloc,

7 but along with Dr. Bassem Yamout, they were considered to be the Syrian

8 deposits or the pro-Syrian candidates. The Syrian regime had asked

9 Prime Minister Hariri to have these three MPs in his bloc. This is why

10 whenever he wanted to send a message or convey a message to the Syrians,

11 he waited for the bloc meetings and he waited for one of these three to

12 come so that he can voice his opinion and send this message indirectly.

13 And on one occasion when he was asked about the parliamentary

14 elections, the forthcoming parliamentary elections that were scheduled in

15 2005, he said, "In these elections I will refuse any Syrian deposit, any

16 of the three candidates," and he mentioned the three candidates by name,

17 Adnan Arakji, Dr. Bassem Yamout, and Dr. Nasser Kandil. After that,

18 Dr. Nasser Kandil contacted me and he was very upset. He told me, "I

19 visit the Prime Minister from time to time. Why didn't he tell me about

20 this? Why didn't he inform me before announcing that publicly in the

21 media?" I told him, "I will speak with the Prime Minister and I will try

22 to understand why that happened, why he did that, and I will give you an

23 answer." I went to the Prime Minister and I told him that, "Nasser

24 Kandil was very upset and you could have met with him prior to that

25 announcement." His Excellency, the Prime Minister, told me, "Let him

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 47 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 come tomorrow at 9.00 and I will talk to him."

2 So I contacted Dr. Nasser Kandil again and I told him that the

3 Prime Minister was expecting him the following day at 9.00 a.m. Now, of

4 course the phone call took a long time with Dr. Kandil because he needed

5 to say everything on his mind, he needed to express his opinions, and

6 whoever knows Dr. Nasser Kandil would know very well that he talks a lot.

7 Q. And it's the appropriate time, I think, to have you identify some

8 telephone numbers that you used during that period of time. And I'm

9 going to use now the same technique as with other witnesses.

10 MR. CAMERON: I believe this is at position 29 of the evidence

11 queue, and it's a list of two numbers, not for public broadcast, which

12 have been identified or are to be identified by Dr. Majdalani as having

13 been used by him in 2004 and 2005.

14 Q. Do you see those numbers before you now, sir?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And were these two mobile phone numbers that you used in 2004 and

17 in 2005?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. CAMERON: I wonder if this might be Exhibit P420, please.

20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: There's no objection from any Defence

21 counsel. The two telephone numbers used by Dr. Majdalani in 2004 will be

22 Exhibit P420.

23 MR. CAMERON:

24 Q. Now, if the evidence were to show that there was a series of

25 calls between you and Mr. Kandil on February 3rd and February 4th of 2005

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 48 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 and, in fact, during the period of September 1st, 2004, to February 14th,

2 2005, there were no other calls than this series of calls, does that

3 accord with or does that fit with your understanding of when this

4 occurred, February 3rd and February 4th of 2005?

5 A. It could be possible. I don't remember the dates specifically,

6 but I believe that these calls are linked to what I just mentioned about

7 the issue and the fact that Dr. Nasser Kandil was upset about his name

8 being announced as a Syrian deposit without a prior meeting with Prime

9 Minister Hariri.

10 Q. Now, earlier you said that the Prime Minister would employ one or

11 more of these three gentlemen to convey messages on his behalf to Syria.

12 And can I ask how you know that?

13 A. I know that because and as a result of my close relationship with

14 Prime Minister Hariri. I knew him very well. I knew very well the

15 methods he used to convey messages, either directly or indirectly.

16 Q. Did the Prime Minister tell you explicitly that he used that

17 technique in the hopes that messages would be delivered to Syria through

18 one or more of these three gentlemen?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So what led you to conclude that he was, in fact, doing that if

21 he didn't tell you?

22 A. Because sometimes we would begin the meeting, the bloc meeting,

23 with Prime Minister Hariri and we would ask him about something,

24 something related one way or another to the Syrians or to a topic of

25 interest to the Syrians - I don't have a specific example in mind - but

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 49 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 he used to tell us, "We'll talk about it later, when Nasser or Bassem or

2 X comes, we'll talk about it." So it was clear to me, because I knew the

3 Prime Minister very well and how he functioned and how he thought, that

4 he was waiting for these people to give his opinion because they will

5 convey his opinion to the Syrians.

6 Sometimes we used to meet and after the meeting we would have

7 first a meeting in a big reception area, in a big room, that is 50 or

8 60 metres away from his office. Sometimes by the time he leaves the

9 conference room and arrives to his office he would receive a call from a

10 Syrian official who would tell him, "Abu Baha, why did you say this or

11 that?" That's for -- as an example.

12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, can you remind us of the

13 message that Mr. Hariri was supposedly trying to get to the Syrians? I

14 think it got lost somewhere there.

15 MR. CAMERON: As a result of my question?

16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: The meeting Mr. -- Dr. Majdalani was just

17 referring to.

18 Maybe I missed something, but I thought the point of this was

19 that there was a meeting with Dr. Kandil and there was a message in that

20 that was supposed to get through to the Syrians, or did I mishear that?

21 MR. CAMERON: I'm not trying to look at you blankly. I'm just

22 trying to figure out what it was that Dr. Majdalani said. Maybe I can

23 approach it this way.

24 Q. Was there a specific instance, do you know, when the Prime

25 Minister deliberately used one of these three gentlemen to convey a

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 50 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 particular message to Syria, that he wanted to be conveyed to Syria? Do

2 you recall a particular instance?

3 A. No. But sometimes after the meeting, the bloc meetings, he would

4 take Nasser Kandil aside and start talking to him, so that meant there

5 was some kind of message that he wanted to convey but I don't have any

6 specific example or a specific message.

7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron.

8 MR. CAMERON: Of course.

9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I think my confusion might have been

10 page 46, line 15 onwards, where you said, Doctor:

11 "So I contacted Dr. Nasser Kandil again and told him that the

12 Prime Minister was expecting him the following day at 9.00 a.m. ..."

13 MR. CAMERON: Yes, I can explore that now. Now I understand what

14 you're ...

15 Q. Do you remember I referred you to those telephone calls and asked

16 you to consider whether or not they were around February 3rd/February

17 4th, and that you had said - after speaking with Mr. Kandil -- it's

18 Dr. Kandil, isn't it, by the way? Isn't it Dr. Kandil?

19 A. Dr. Nasser Kandil, yes.

20 Q. That there was to be a meeting arranged between Dr. Kandil and

21 the Prime Minister for the following day. And what was the purpose of

22 that meeting? You sort of -- I take it from your answer you sort of

23 brokered that meeting?

24 A. I already said that Prime Minister Hariri declared publicly that

25 in the forthcoming parliamentary elections he will not be taking on board

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 51 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 any of the pro-Syrian candidates in his bloc, any of the Syrian deposits,

2 and that the current Syrian deposits, and he named them, Adnan Arakji,

3 Bassem Yamout, and Nasser Kandil, they will not be among his candidates

4 or on his electoral lists. Nasser Kandil was really upset when he heard

5 that because the Prime Minister did not inform him prior to declaring

6 that openly in the media, and he relayed that to me on the phone. He

7 told me that he was upset. I conveyed that message to the Prime Minister

8 and told him that Nasser Kandil was upset. The Prime Minister told me,

9 "Let him come tomorrow morning to meet with me." So the topic of that

10 meeting on that day at 9.00 a.m. between Nasser Kandil and Prime Minister

11 Hariri was to allow Prime Minister Hariri to explain and clarify the

12 reasons why he said what he said and why he will not be taking on board

13 any deposit, including Nasser Kandil, on his electoral lists.

14 I was not present at that meeting. I do not know what happened

15 exactly during that meeting. All I know is that I contacted Nasser

16 Kandil again a second time to tell him that, "You have a meeting with the

17 Prime Minister tomorrow at 9.00 a.m. and you can tell him directly what

18 is on your mind." And this is what happened.

19 Q. And do you know when -- roughly when the Prime Minister started

20 to speak about whether or not he would have the Syrian deposits on his

21 slate of candidates?

22 A. That was towards the end of 2004/early 2005, if I remember well.

23 Q. And how did you learn of it, from the Prime Minister or from

24 someone else?

25 A. This is what Prime Minister Rafik Hariri said to the press, to

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 52 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 the media. So I knew from what I read in the press.

2 Q. And did you have a conversation with the Prime Minister about the

3 issue of the Syrian deposits not being on his 2005 list?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Was it something that was discussed in the parliamentary bloc

6 meetings that were convened each week?

7 A. No, we did not discuss it during our meetings in the bloc.

8 Q. All right. I began this series of questions with the -- an

9 inquiry about the Prime Minister's relationship with Syria, and you'd

10 earlier mentioned Rustom Ghazaleh. Did you know about the Prime

11 Minister's relationship, if any, with Brigadier-General Ghazaleh?

12 A. I know that it was a highly tense relationship most of the time.

13 For instance, I remember that on the 9th of May, 2004, Beirut was holding

14 its municipality elections, municipal elections. Before that, I was

15 walking with Mr. Hariri in the garden in Quraitem Palace. He told me,

16 "We should start work in order to establish an electoral list for these

17 upcoming elections." And he asked me to have some names for candidates I

18 deem suitable for these elections, namely, Christian candidates. Then he

19 told me that he disagreed about this with Brigadier Rustom Ghazaleh and

20 that this disagreement happened during a meeting that was held in the

21 house or residence of Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. Rustom Ghazaleh

22 insisted to have an electoral list of his own and to impose it on

23 Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. This is an example of the relationship that

24 was prevailing between Prime Minister Rafik Hariri and Rustom Ghazaleh.

25 Q. Did you learn that from the Prime Minister himself or from other

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 53 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 sources about the imposition of the municipal election list?

2 A. I knew it from Prime Minister Hariri in person. I shall

3 reiterate that I was walking with him in the garden of his residence and

4 he mentioned it to me.

5 Q. Why did the Prime Minister have an interest in the list of

6 candidates for a municipal election?

7 A. Because Prime Minister Rafik Hariri was a prime minister, before

8 that he was also -- and, more importantly, he was the president of the

9 Beirut MPs parliamentary bloc. So it was very normal, very natural, that

10 he would be interested in the municipal elections. Also we should not

11 forget that he had many supporters in Beirut, all over Lebanon, and his

12 supporters came from the various confessions and regions in Lebanon and

13 in Beirut. So it was very natural for him to be interested in the

14 municipal elections.

15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Dr. Majdalani, what was Mr. Hariri's -- I'll

16 rephrase it.

17 What did Mr. Hariri do after he had had this conversation with

18 Mr. Ghazaleh? Did he change the list of candidates he - Mr. Hariri - was

19 proposing for the municipal elections in May 2004?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I think that there was a kind

21 of a compromise that was reached and I think that there was one electoral

22 list and I think that the elections were made based on that electoral

23 list in addition to a few independent candidates. I think that in Beirut

24 back then there was only one electoral list, a coalition list that

25 comprises the rest of the political factions and forces in Beirut.

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 54 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: How was he able to achieve the compromise in

2 the municipal elections in May 2004?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He reached a compromise - I don't

4 know the details of that compromise - however, it was a compromise

5 reached namely with the Tashnag Armenian party.

6 MR. CAMERON:

7 Q. Now, did you -- as a result of your relationship with the Prime

8 Minister, did you observe any noticeable change in how he dealt with the

9 Syrian regime prior to the extension of President Lahoud and how he dealt

10 with the Syrian regime after the extension of President Lahoud?

11 A. I cannot describe the change; however, what I can say is the

12 following: He was constantly reiterating the importance of co-operation

13 between Syria and Lebanon and he used to repeat also that Lebanon cannot

14 be ruled against Damascus and cannot also be ruled from Damascus. He

15 used also to constantly say that he wanted a real and true co-operation

16 between Lebanon and Syria, a real brotherly type of co-operation, and

17 this was his genuine opinion.

18 Q. Now, on February the 12th of 2005, did you happen to attend a

19 condolence service as a result of the passing of a family member?

20 A. That is correct. Prime Minister Rafik Hariri came to offer his

21 condolences at around 1300. He was accompanied, if I remember well, by

22 both Dr. Ghattas Khoury and Dr. Ghazi Youssef.

23 MR. CAMERON: If we could summon up the Zawarib atlas at

24 position 20 of the presentation queue, please, and if we could go to

25 page 41 on the PDF and page 73 to 74 in the actual atlas which you have,

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 55 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 which is ERN 60298221.

2 Q. Do you see on these pages where the condolence services were

3 held, sir?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. If the clerk could assist you in drawing a bold circle around ...

6 was it held in a church, Dr. Majdalani?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What was the name?

9 A. Mar Mikhael Church, also known as St. Michael Church.

10 Q. Can you draw a circle around the church that the services were

11 held at.

12 A. [Marks]

13 MR. CAMERON: If this could be Exhibit 421.

14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Yes. Dr. Atef Majdalani's marking on the

15 street directory of the location of St. Michael's Church will be

16 Exhibit P421.

17 MR. CAMERON:

18 Q. At the same time were you aware of an incident involving the

19 arrest of some employees of the Prime Minister or through one of his

20 companies relating to an olive oil distribution?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did that occupy some of your day on the 12th of February?

23 A. Yes. I had to leave the rest of the family who were receiving

24 the condolences and I went to the headquarters of the Tanmiya Association

25 where there was a kind of threat that the public prosecutor back then,

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 56 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 Ms. Kaddoura would come to the headquarters and there were some rumours

2 that she wanted to shut down this association, that is, Tanmiya

3 Association, or Beirut Development Association. So we went there, all of

4 us. We were waiting outside the headquarters. When Mr. Rafik Hariri

5 came he was very upset, especially that it wasn't the first time that he

6 donates from his own money in order to provide assistance and help to the

7 people in need in Beirut. At the same time, he was also doing a favour

8 to the farmers growing olive trees in Lebanon, namely in South Lebanon,

9 and he was also making a kind of contribution to the Lebanese economy

10 because farmers were constantly asking the government to assist them in

11 order to be able to sell all their olive oil production. So by doing so,

12 Prime Minister Rafik Hariri was doing a favour and assisting the Lebanese

13 farmers, the Lebanese economy, and also the people in need from Beirut,

14 the residents of Beirut who were in need. However, the Lebanese-Syrian

15 security apparatus and Mr. -- and President Lahoud's regime turned this

16 favour into a kind of bribe. What a shame.

17 Q. Dr. Majdalani, I think that this is going to be a convenient time

18 to break for the day.

19 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Just before we do, I just need a

20 clarification on the last exhibit.

21 The St. Michael's Church you went to on the 12th of February,

22 2004, I think it was on pages 72 and 73 of the Beirut street directory,

23 the Zawarib directory, which suburb or area of Beirut was that

24 St. Michael's Church in? Apologies, pages 73 and 74.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The church is not located in Beirut

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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Atef Majdalani –PRH491 (Open Session) Page 57 Examination by Mr. Cameron

1 suburbs. It is located in the area of Mazraa, in the heart of Beirut.

2 And this is where I was born. And I am proud to belong to this

3 neighbourhood or area.

4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right. Well, on those proud words we

5 will break for the day. Thank you for your testimony today. I just ask

6 you, as with all other witnesses, please don't talk about your evidence

7 with anybody else until we resume tomorrow morning.

8 Unless there's anything else - there appears not to be - the

9 Trial Chamber is adjourned.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.21 p.m. 11

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