LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4211
OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 11 December 2013
The Council met at Eleven o'clock
MEMBERS PRESENT:
THE PRESIDENT THE HONOURABLE JASPER TSANG YOK-SING, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT HO CHUN-YAN
THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG
DR THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, G.B.M., G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ABRAHAM SHEK LAI-HIM, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TOMMY CHEUNG YU-YAN, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT FANG KANG, S.B.S., J.P.
4212 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-HING, B.B.S., M.H.
PROF THE HONOURABLE JOSEPH LEE KOK-LONG, S.B.S., J.P., Ph.D., R.N.
THE HONOURABLE JEFFREY LAM KIN-FUNG, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW LEUNG KWAN-YUEN, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE WONG TING-KWONG, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONNY TONG KA-WAH, S.C.
THE HONOURABLE CYD HO SAU-LAN
THE HONOURABLE STARRY LEE WAI-KING, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LAM TAI-FAI, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAK-KAN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN KIN-POR, B.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE PRISCILLA LEUNG MEI-FUN, S.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LEUNG KA-LAU
THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG KWOK-CHE
THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-KIN, B.B.S.
THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE PAUL TSE WAI-CHUN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALAN LEONG KAH-KIT, S.C. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4213
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG KWOK-HUNG
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
THE HONOURABLE WONG YUK-MAN
THE HONOURABLE CLAUDIA MO
THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL TIEN PUK-SUN, B.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE NG LEUNG-SING, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE STEVEN HO CHUN-YIN
THE HONOURABLE FRANKIE YICK CHI-MING
THE HONOURABLE WU CHI-WAI, M.H.
THE HONOURABLE YIU SI-WING
THE HONOURABLE GARY FAN KWOK-WAI
THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHARLES PETER MOK
THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHI-CHUEN
THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAN-PAN
DR THE HONOURABLE KENNETH CHAN KA-LOK
THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
4214 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LEUNG
THE HONOURABLE ALICE MAK MEI-KUEN, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE KWOK KA-KI
THE HONOURABLE KWOK WAI-KEUNG
THE HONOURABLE DENNIS KWOK
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG WAH-FUNG, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE FERNANDO CHEUNG CHIU-HUNG
THE HONOURABLE SIN CHUNG-KAI, S.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE HELENA WONG PIK-WAN
THE HONOURABLE IP KIN-YUEN
DR THE HONOURABLE ELIZABETH QUAT, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LIAO CHEUNG-KONG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE POON SIU-PING, B.B.S., M.H.
THE HONOURABLE TANG KA-PIU
DR THE HONOURABLE CHIANG LAI-WAN, J.P.
IR DR THE HONOURABLE LO WAI-KWOK, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHUNG KWOK-PAN
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHUNG SHU-KUN, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TONY TSE WAI-CHUEN
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4215
PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING:
THE HONOURABLE TSANG TAK-SING, G.B.S., J.P. THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION
THE HONOURABLE JOHN TSANG CHUN-WAH, G.B.M., J.P. THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY
PROF THE HONOURABLE ANTHONY CHEUNG BING-LEUNG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING
PROF THE HONOURABLE K C CHAN, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY
THE HONOURABLE GREGORY SO KAM-LEUNG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
DR THE HONOURABLE KO WING-MAN, B.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH
THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHAN MO-PO, M.H., J.P. SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT
PROF SOPHIA CHAN SIU-CHEE, J.P. UNDER SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH
CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE:
MR KENNETH CHEN WEI-ON, S.B.S., SECRETARY GENERAL
MRS JUSTINA LAM CHENG BO-LING, DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL
MR ANDY LAU KWOK-CHEONG, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL
MISS ODELIA LEUNG HING-YEE, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL
MRS PERCY MA, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL
4216 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will the Clerk please ring the bell to summon Members back to the Chamber.
(After the summoning bell had been rung, a number of Members entered the Chamber)
TABLING OF PAPERS
The following papers were laid on the table under Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:
Subsidiary Legislation/Instrument L.N. No.
Import and Export (General) Regulations (Amendment of Schedule 7) (No. 2) Notice 2013 ...... 198/2013
Other Papers
No. 47 ─ Immigration Service Welfare Fund Report on the administration of the Fund prepared by the Director of Immigration Incorporated in accordance with section 12(b) of the Immigration Service (Welfare Fund) Regulation
No. 48 ─ The Prince Philip Dental Hospital 2012/13 Annual Report The Board of Governors
No. 49 ─ The Government Minute in response to the 25th Annual Report of The Ombudsman 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, 10 minutes before the meeting commences, you will hear in the Legislative Council Complex the Secretariat's announcement advising you that the meeting will start in 10 minutes. Please be punctual so that Members and officials attending on time do not have to wait for a while before there is a quorum for the meeting to commence.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4217
ADDRESSES
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Address. The Chief Secretary for Administration will address the Council on "The Government Minute in response to the 25th Annual Report of The Ombudsman 2013".
The Government Minute in response to the 25th Annual Report of The Ombudsman 2013
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): President, the 25th Annual Report of The Ombudsman (Annual Report) was tabled before the Legislative Council on 10 July this year. I now submit to the Legislative Council the Government Minute in response to the recommendations in the Annual Report.
In the Annual Report, The Ombudsman summarized six direct investigations and 169 full investigations, and made a total of 217 recommendations. Save for six recommendations, the Government and relevant public bodies have accepted all the recommendations from The Ombudsman, and have taken or are taking various measures to implement the recommendations.
As to the six recommendations not accepted, they involve one direct investigation and two full investigations conducted by The Ombudsman. The relevant departments, namely the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department and the Labour Department, have given explanations to The Ombudsman as set out in detail in this Government Minute. The Office of The Ombudsman (Office) has noted or accepted the departments' explanations.
President, The Ombudsman has been playing a very important role in raising the quality and standard of administration of Hong Kong's public services, and the achievements are evident to all. The Ombudsman receives complaints from the public, and then carries out independent and impartial investigations. If maladministration is found in government departments and public bodies, The Ombudsman will suggest positive recommendations and improvement measures. During the investigations by The Ombudsman, many departments have proactively taken improvement measures, so The Ombudsman's investigations are virtually a catalyst for administrative reform. In fact, as indicated by The Ombudsman in the Annual Report, over 40% of complaints were found 4218 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 unsubstantiated. This fully reflects that if there is no maladministration in public bodies, The Ombudsman will also confirm that their practices are sensible and reasonable. I am concerned about The Ombudsman's observations that some government officers do not appreciate the positive meaning of the Office's intervention and have behaved in an overly defensive manner towards its investigations; and some departments were lax in keeping proper records. We will urge departments to make improvements in these areas.
With rapid social development, the Government understands that it must closely monitor new trends and remind departments to proactively handle new challenges in a flexible manner. In summarizing the handling of complaints over the past year, The Ombudsman pointed out the three categories of improvement measures where most recommendations were made by the Office, and they were measures for better client services, enhanced guidelines for staff, and clearer and more timely information for the public. We will remind department heads to pay more attention to improving front-line services and giving adequate support to front-line staff. We will also continue to foster effective collaboration among departments through, inter alia, the lining up of inter-departmental meetings and the establishment of inter-departmental groups and offices, with a view to developing a more joined-up government so as to address public aspirations more efficiently and comprehensively.
Moreover, in the Annual Report, The Ombudsman also recommended government departments and public bodies to adopt a more open attitude towards the making of apologies. In this regard, the Department of Justice set up the Steering Committee on Mediation (Committee) at the end of last year to further develop mediation services. Prior to the publication of the Annual Report by The Ombudsman, the Committee had already commenced a number of studies, including studying the introduction of apology legislation to allow individuals, private organizations, government organs and public bodies more flexibility in law to deal with apologies and related matters. In considering the introduction of apology legislation or related legal provisions, the Committee will definitely have due regard to the views of different parties, including The Ombudsman's recommendations.
We will continue to work together with The Ombudsman in meeting the people's expectation that the Government should strive to raise the quality of services and enhance the transparency of governance. I would like to thank The Ombudsman for always handling complaints from the public in an independent LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4219 and impartial manner, thereby facilitating the establishment of a good public administration system that is fair, reasonable, open and accountable in Hong Kong.
Thank you, President.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Questions. First question.
Development of Bridgehead Economy on Lantau Island
1. MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, the authorities have started the Tung Chung New Town Development Extension Study, and various large-scale infrastructure projects on North Lantau, such as the Hong Kong Boundary Crossing Facilities (HKBCF) of the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge (HZMB), Hong Kong Link Road and Tuen Mun-Chek Lap Kok Link (TM-CLKL), and so on, have commenced one after another. Some civil organizations have pointed out that on the premise of striking a balance between conservation and development, the authorities should improve the internal and external transport links of Lantau Island, make good use of port facilities there to develop "bridgehead economy", develop Tung Chung into a new town with local characteristics which is suitable for living, doing business, working, sightseeing and schooling, and promote the economic development of Hong Kong by capitalizing on the synergy generated by the North Lantau development. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) as there are views that the traffic flows between the urban areas and Lantau Island will increase substantially upon the commissioning of HZMB, of the details of the plans drawn up by the authorities for improving the road networks concerned, and how future vehicle flows into Hong Kong through HZMB will be diverted to avoid traffic congestions in areas around Tung Chung;
(b) given that the artificial island for HKBCF will have an area of up to 150 hectares, whether the authorities will, apart from the provision of cross boundary facilities, build other facilities, including car 4220 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
parks, shopping malls and hotels, and so on, on the island; if they will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(c) given that the authorities have indicated that they will consider providing additional conference and exhibition facilities, hotels, shopping malls and sightseeing attractions, and so on, on Lantau Island to receive visitors coming to Hong Kong through HZMB, what specific plans the authorities have for developing bridgehead economy; whether they have plans to establish an inter-departmental organizations (such as Lantau Island Development Committee) to co-ordinate the relevant work of various government departments, so as to avoid the situation of a lack of co-ordination among the departments; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): Good morning, President and Members. According to the Chief Executive's 2013 Policy Address, Lantau Island, in particular Tung Chung, has a geographical advantage for the development of logistics, tourism and other industries, as well as the creation of new employment opportunities for the local residents. Such development is further facilitated by the progressive implementation of a number of major infrastructure projects, including the HZMB and TM-CLKL. In 2007, the Government published the Concept Plan for Lantau and the overall planning approach is to optimize the use of internal and external transport links and infrastructure, concentrate the development in North Lantau, and create business and employment opportunities, whilst protecting the rural natural environment of scenic and high ecological values in Lantau for nature conservation and visitor uses.
To fully capitalize on the strategic location of Tung Chung and tie in with the Concept Plan for Lantau, we are conducting the Tung Chung New Town Development Extension Study with a view to developing Tung Chung into a more sizable and comprehensively developed new town. We are also exploring the reclamation potential of Siu Ho Wan and Sunny Bay in the Enhancing Land Supply Strategy Study for increasing the land available for development in Lantau. In parallel, we will continue to explore in earnest the development potential of Lantau and areas along the trunk routes in New Territories West. Examples include Tuen Mun Areas 40 and 46 (adjacent to the landing point of the TM-CLKL), which have great development potential. We have commenced LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4221 relevant planning and engineering studies for a comprehensive replanning of the land uses in these two areas.
To give full play to the benefit of the HZMB in facilitating the "bridgehead economy" in nearby areas, the Transport and Housing Bureau plans to provide convenient public transport services between the HKBCF of HZMB and the Hong Kong International Airport (HKIA), Tung Chung, other parts of the Lantau Island and Tuen Mun. Our aim is to develop the HKBCF of HZMB into a strategic transportation hub on the west of Hong Kong, with a view to providing facilitation to travellers coming to Hong Kong through the HZMB to make use of the commercial and tourism facilities in the local areas (including North Lantau) and thereby creating business and employment opportunities. We are also considering future expansion programme of the HKIA, including a three-runway system. The Airport Authority (AA) is conducting a development strategy study on the North Commercial District (NCD) of the airport island.
On the basis of the information provided by the Transport and Housing Bureau, my reply to the three-part question of Mr CHAN Han-pan is as follows:
(a) The HZMB is scheduled for opening in late 2016. To prepare for the commissioning of the HZMB, corresponding planning has been made for the overall transport network to cope with any increased vehicular traffic. The related road planning design includes the new TM-CLKL with its southern section connecting the HKBCF of HZMB and North Lantau Highway by way of a viaduct. This section will be commissioned simultaneously with the HZMB. By then, vehicles travelling between the HKBCF of HZMB and the urban areas or the New Territories can route through this viaduct direct, instead of going through the roads in the Tung Chung area.
The northern section of the TM-CLKL, which will connect the HKBCF of HZMB and Tuen Mun in the form of a sub-sea tunnel, is scheduled for commissioning in late 2018. Upon its completion, the traffic between areas of Northwest New Territories and the HKBCF of HZMB and Lantau (including the HKIA) can make direct use of the sub-sea tunnel. The TM-CLKL will serve the purpose of traffic diversion, helping to alleviate the traffic load of North Lantau Highway, Lantau Link and Tuen Mun Highway. Furthermore, new roads connecting the HKBCF of HZMB and the 4222 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
adjacent HKIA are also included in the relevant road planning design in order to facilitate visitors' travelling.
(b) The Government is building the HKBCF of HZMB by reclamation in waters off the northeast of the HKIA. About 150 hectares of land(1) will be developed in the entire project for accommodating boundary crossing and transport facilities of the bridge. Among them, the passenger terminal building to be constructed will provide commercial facilities like restaurants, duty free shops, convenient stores, money exchange, electronic teller machines, and so on, to facilitate visitors.
Currently, the HKBCF of HZMB project does not include any sizable shopping malls or hotels. However, we understand that the Mr Chan Han-pan and the public wish to tap the economic potential arising from the HKBCF artificial island. In this connection, we will give full consideration to options for capitalizing on the opportunities brought by the artificial island and the HZMB after its opening, so long as such options do not affect the target of commissioning the HZMB by end 2016.
(c) As mentioned above, we have launched a series of development projects in order to give full play to the benefit of the HZMB and HKBCF in facilitating the "bridgehead economy" in North Lantau and the nearby areas. Like all development and infrastructure projects, the Policy Bureaux and departments concerned in the Government will maintain close liaison to jointly work out the overall development plan for Lantau. There is well-established mechanism within the Government for co-ordinating all such development planning and projects. The Steering Committee on Land Supply chaired by the Financial Secretary will also co-ordinate the work of the bureaux and departments relating to the overall development and supply of land.
(1) Of which about 130 hectares of reclaimed land is for the HKBCF and about 20 hectares is for the southern landfall of the TM-CLKL. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4223
MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, Lantau residents have always wanted to make good use of the development potential of the area. To give full play to the uniqueness of Lantau, strategic deployment is necessary, which involves planning in respect of land, transportation, commerce, tourism, and so on. Can the Steering Committee on Land Supply mentioned by the Secretary comprehensively co-ordinate planning in the above aspects? Can it replace the inter-departmental organization promised to be set up by the Chief Executive when he ran for election, and be responsible for co-ordinating the development of Lantau?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, I thank Mr CHAN Han-pan for his supplementary question. In fact, the Steering Committee on Land Supply chaired by the Financial Secretary cannot comprehensively co-ordinate the planning work just mentioned by Mr CHAN. However, as I said in my main reply, the Policy Bureaux and departments concerned in the Government have maintained close liaison to jointly work out the overall development plan for Lantau, and have participated in the relevant work. In the process, the Chief Executive has also participated in the discussions and gave directions. We have an internal mechanism for co-ordinating all factors for consideration in the planning and development process, and co-ordinating various development projects.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has not answered my supplementary question. The Chief Executive promised when he ran for election to set up an inter-departmental organization, involving the Government, the public and the business sector, to make plans for the development of Lantau together. But the organization has not yet been established, I would like to ask if such role can be played by the Steering Committee on Land Supply instead?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, the role cannot be played by the Steering Committee on Land Supply. As I have just 4224 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 mentioned, the departments concerned are making plans; when the planning work becomes more mature, we will make more specific considerations in the next stage and consider which mechanism is most desirable with reference to the relevant information and work progress.
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): President, development is everyone's dream but the most important factor for consideration is the impact on people's lives and health. There are two environmental disasters in Tung Chung, namely aircraft noise and air pollution. I hope the Secretary is aware that the problems of suspended particulates and air pollution in Tung Chung are the worst in Hong Kong at noon. While promoting development, will the Secretary ask the Environment Bureau to conduct more in-depth study on the environmental pollution problem in Tung Chung, including the environmental impacts of vehicle growth and other aspects of development, especially the effects of air pollution on people's health and its threats on people's lives? The authorities should not only be concerned about the benefits of development, without paying heed to people's well-being.
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, I thank Mr Albert CHAN for his question and reminder. When we started the Tung Chung New Town Development Extension Study, we considered developing Tung Chung East and Tung Chung West. According to new town planning, the existing population is around 90 000 and more than 200 000 people can live in Tung Chung after reclamation. At present, job opportunities and ancillary transport facilities of the area are not very satisfactory. For this reason, we want to expand this town further and hope that some 200 000 people can live there (including the existing residents) after different proposals have been implemented. In this way, economies of scale can be achieved in promoting employment and improving transportation in the area.
Mr CHAN has just raised the issues of noise and air quality, which we will certainly consider. Various Policy Bureaux and departments will work together and colleagues from the Environmental Bureau will also participate in the work. Furthermore, air quality assessments will be conducted in the planning process.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4225
MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): President, the Lantau Development Alliance has been formed by a few major enterprises and local groups in Lantau. On the development of Lantau, they proposed to revitalize the local community and had voiced many concrete views. They had also submitted a planning proposal with vision. They suggested setting up a Lantau Development Authority to deliberate with the Government on the overall planning and development of Lantau. Will the Secretary consider setting up a Lantau Development Authority, so as to create a platform for co-operation and communication among the Government, the business sector and the public? If so, how is the current progress; if not, in what kind of channels will be created for communication among the Government, the business sector and the public?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, I thank Ms Starry LEE for her supplementary question. As I just said in reply to Mr CHAN Han-pan's question, the Policy Bureaux and departments concerned are conducting some internal studies at the present stage. Before discussing the specific land use, there are many factors for consideration in connection with infrastructure. In areas such as transportation and air quality, we must make overall consideration from a wider and more macroscopic perspective, and make advance preparations. We highly appreciated the work done by the Lantau Development Alliance, as well as the views submitted. We have noted their aspirations and have considered the ideas put forward by the Chief Executive in his election manifesto. We are conducting some internal studies and we will make a decision at the next stage.
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): President, due to the slow progress of work, the TM-CLKL and the Tuen Mun Western Bypass (TMWB) projects, scheduled to be completed in 2016, will be delayed by two years and three years respectively. Hence, these projects will not be commissioned in 2016 together with the HZMB. May I ask the Secretary what contingency measures the Government has in place to cope with this transition impediment, thereby minimizing the traffic impacts after the commissioning of the HZMB?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, I thank Mr Gary FAN for his supplementary question. As a matter of fact, owing to judicial review and various reasons, there are delays in the project, but not all road 4226 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 sections of the TM-CLKL have been delayed. The road section connecting the southern part of the airport island to North Lantau will open to traffic to dovetail with the commissioning of the HZMB as scheduled. By then, vehicles can use this road section to Lantau or to the urban area and other places in the New Territories via North Lantau. For the section of the TM-CLKL which landed in Tuen Mun in the north, we do have some delays in the works. After consulting local authorities on the specific landing point of the TM-CLKL, the TMWB project have encountered some difficulties. I sincerely call upon District Council members and residents to consider the needs of society as a whole, and give us more support in connection with the TMWB project so that the project can be implemented smoothly as early as possible.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): President, in the third paragraph of the Secretary's reply to Mr CHAN Han-pan's question, he stated that "the AA is conducting a development strategy study on the NCD of the airport island". In paragraph 83 of the Policy Address 2013, the Chief Executive stated that he had asked the bureaux concerned to accelerate the development of the NCD. However, I recently heard that there were a lot of controversies within the AA over this direction of development. What are the controversies? How is the progress of work? In particular, concerning the 11 hectares of land on the airport island which has been used as a temporary golf course for a long time, how will this disposed site be used?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, I thank Mr TAM Yiu-chung for his supplementary question. Some of the contents of the report are speculative in nature and I will not comment on that. However, concerning the site of about 10 hectares to the north of the airport island, we are of the view that it is a piece of valuable disposed site which should be developed expeditiously, in particular, we need to create more job opportunities on Lantau and provide certain facilities for the area. Now that the overall land supply is so tight, this site should be well utilized to alleviate the demand. As far as I know, the AA has commissioned a consultant to conduct a study, which will probably be completed by the end of this year. The Transport and Housing Bureau and the AA are having close communications and examining different possible options. I believe the authorities will brief Members at an appropriate time.
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MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, the Chief Executive often mentions that in respect of planning in certain aspects, the planning department should have more direct communications with District Councils and plan together. However, regarding the development of Lantau, it seems that the planning authorities have disregarded the District Council. Consequently, the District Council has made different requests, especially requests for services that the authorities have not yet provided. The District Council often points out that many road sections on Lantau are very dangerous and narrow, and improvements should be made. But why have government departments made slow progress in these areas? I hope the Secretary would comment on the improvement to some existing facilities.
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, we are willing to enhance communications with the District Council and the local community, and have more frequent meetings and exchanges. On matters of public concern, we will make our level best to implement measures if permitted by policies and administration. Concerning the development of Lantau, apart from North Lantau, we also take note of the different aspirations of the community for further development. However, the transport infrastructure will be a serious constraint and a factor for consideration. Regarding certain specific road sections, we can give a targeted response after Members have made proposals. But as we all know, there are a lot of conservation areas and protected areas on South Lantau. While we cannot, to a certain extent, carry out large scale development, we have to provide supporting transport infrastructure. If Members have specific proposals on some road sections, we are happy to discuss with them again. All in all, the Transport and Housing Bureau and the Transport Department have paid considerable attention to the needs of the area.
MISS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): President, I notice that it is mentioned in part (b) of the Secretary's reply that, currently, the HKBCF of HZMB project does not include any sizable shopping malls or hotels. However, the Government will consider the economic potential and then study how the development should be carried out. I am worried about that. I would like to tell the Secretary, to tap the economic potential of the area does not mean building sizable shopping malls or hotels. In fact, it has been said that Lantau is a "slave city", meaning that most residents living there work for large consortia …
4228 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss MAK, please state your supplementary question.
MISS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): May I ask the Secretary in tapping the economic potential of the island, how would the Government take on board the views of local residents and create job opportunities, as well as allow small business operators to run business?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, as we all know, the landing point of the Hong Kong section of the HZMB is on a reclaimed area, and at that time, the consideration was to minimize the scale of reclamation. It was also noted that as the area was in close vicinity to the airport, the scope and scale of development would be limited to a certain extent. Therefore, the facilities provided in that area mainly serve to facilitate travellers. Nevertheless, as I said in the main reply, we also noticed that when the HZMB is open to traffic, it will promote links between Hong Kong and the west of the Pearl River Delta region. As Qianhai, Hengqin, Macao, Zhuhai and Zhongshan are located in the west, we estimate that when the HZMB is open to traffic in the future, it will also promote the flow of people and traffic.
In the past couple of years, there have been a lot of discussions in the community about how shopping of Mainland visitors to Hong Kong under the Individual Visit Scheme (IVS) in different parts of the urban area have affected our daily lives. Some suggested that if commercial facilities could be constructed in border areas or some suitable locations, shopping of IVS visitors can be facilitated and they can be diverted to places other than the urban areas for shopping. In addition, local residents in some areas such as Tung Chung have complained about the lack of job opportunities. Hence, we are studying the expansion of Tung Chung and increasing the population in the area, as well as considering the construction of railway stations and other ancillary transport facilities where feasible, in the hope of revitalizing the area.
We have proactively examined whether further development of the airport island is possible. As Miss MAK has said, we will certainly have close communications with local residents, including members of the Lantau Development Alliance mentioned just now, on the premise of promoting the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4229
"bridgehead economy" and providing more job opportunities in the area, so that many residents would not have to work across districts.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent almost 25 minutes on this question. Second question.
Procurement of Office Furniture and Other Stores by Government Departments
2. MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): It has been reported that the Air Traffic Control Centre of the Civil Aviation Department and the 999 reporting centres (reporting centres) of the Hong Kong Police Force (HKPF) had separately procured more than 100 office chairs of well-known brands, and the retail prices of the chairs ranged between $8,000 and $10,000 each, with a total value exceeding $1 million. The authorities explained that the procurement of expensive chairs was for the purpose of allowing their staff to concentrate on work. However, notwithstanding the need of the counter staff of the Immigration Department (ImmD) at the immigration control points (control points) to sit for long hours at work as well, the prices of their chairs are less than $900 each. Regarding the criteria and requirements governing the procurement of office furniture and other stores by government departments, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the details of the chairs currently used by the staff of reporting centres and counter staff of control points respectively (including brand names, model numbers, quantities and unit prices); and the reasons for the departments concerned to procure chairs that vary greatly in price;
(b) apart from the requirement to comply with the Stores and Procurement Regulations (the Regulations), of the relevant factors that government departments may consider in procuring stores, and how the question of whether staff members are concentrated on their work is related to the prices of chairs; and
(c) given that the Regulations stipulate that procurement of stores and services exceeding $1.43 million in value by Policy Bureaux and 4230 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
government departments must be done by the use of open and competitive tendering procedures so as to obtain the best value for money tenders, whether the Government has formulated procurement rules for stores of total value less than $1.43 million but with high unit prices; if it has, of the details; if not, how it regulates government departments' procurement of stores with unit prices which are beyond a reasonable level; whether the Government has put in place practicable measures to guard against government departments' circumventing the procurement requirement of open and competitive tendering procedures for stores and services with total value exceeding $1.43 million by procuring them in batches?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, first of all, I will give a brief account of the government procurement policy and the established procedures for the procurement of furniture. At present, standard furniture of bureaux/departments (hereafter referred to as "departments") is normally supplied by the Government Logistics Department (GLD) and the Correctional Services Industries (CSI). The GLD arranges various bulk procurement contracts for departments. Items procured include office chairs and steel filing cabinets, and so on. The CSI is responsible for the supply of standard wooden office furniture, such as desks and computer tables.
If departments have to use non-standard furniture due to operational needs, they are required to follow the Government's Stores and Procurement Regulations (SPR). Generally speaking, goods with a total value of over $1.43 million must be procured through open tender. Departments should invite at least five written quotations for purchases with a value over $50,000 but not exceeding $1.43 million, and at least two quotations for purchases with a value not exceeding $50,000. In all cases, departments must conduct procurement exercises in accordance with the principles of open and fair competition to ensure that the goods purchased are reasonably priced and value-for-money. Departments should normally accept the lowest conforming offer and can only accept a higher conforming offer under exceptional circumstances with full justifications.
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My reply to the three-part question raised by Mr CHAN is as follows:
(a) According to the information provided by the departments concerned, there are a total of about 240 chairs for use by Police Communications Officers in the three reporting centres of the HKPF. All of the chairs are model "AERON" of the brand "Herman Miller". Each chair costs about $4,300 on average.
In the case of the ImmD, there are now 12 control points provided with a total of about 600 chairs (excluding those at the Hong Kong International Airport control point which are provided by the Airport Authority Hong Kong) for use by the counter staff. Since the counter chairs at the control points were procured at different points in time, they are of different brands and models. At present, the most common ones in use are the "U273" model of the "Elegant" brand, the unit price of which does not exceed $1,000.
Procurement of general office furniture by the departments concerned must conform to the guidelines set out in the User Guide on Standard Office Furniture issued by the Government Property Agency. Given the fact that the actual operational needs of the police reporting centres and control points are different from those of general offices, departments may procure chairs with specifications and functions different from those for use in general offices to meet their operational needs in accordance with the procedures laid down in SPR.
The HKPF's reporting centres operate round the clock. It is often the case that each duty officer has to operate more than one computer terminal at a time. The chairs must be safe, durable and ergonomically-designed so as to minimize occupational safety and health risks that may arise from long hours of work that demand intense concentration and to maintain efficiency and quality of service. The ImmD has also provided its counter staff with chairs tailor-made to fit counters of various sizes at different control points, suit actual operational needs and comply with the requirements on occupational safety and health.
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As the actual operational needs vary from department to department, different factors have been taken into account in the procurement of chairs.
(b) In arranging for procurement of stores, government departments have to consider factors such as operational needs, functions of goods, maintenance requirements, green and legal requirements, cost-effectiveness and market competition with a view to drawing up specifications for goods to be purchased and ensuring that the goods purchased are value-for-money and public funds are well spent.
(c) Under the government procurement policy, irrespective of the amount involved, all Controlling Officers (COs) have to ensure that stores and services procured are value-for-money and public funds are well spent. Approving officers for such procurement have to ensure that the procurement requirements are reasonable and meet the actual operational needs of their departments.
All procurement decisions made by a department must be properly justified and documented for future checking. Departments should also ensure officers responsible for procurement matters observe the financial limits set out in the SPR strictly and do not evade the financial limits by dividing procurement requirements into instalments.
As and when necessary, the COs will assign an internal audit team to check the procurement records of their respective sections/units to ensure their procurements are in compliance with the SPR. The Audit Commission and the GLD have also put in place monitoring mechanisms for checking procurement records of all departments.
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): President, last month, I raised a written question about the procurement of luxurious chairs for the conference room in the Office of the Chief Secretary for Administration and Chief Secretary for Administration Mrs Carrie LAM has given a written reply at that time. Today, I asked about the chairs of the HKPF, but we have here Secretary Prof K C CHAN to give a reply. I want to tell the Secretary that part (a) of my main question is about the chairs of the HKPF, but no answer has been given. I LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4233 requested the Government to provide the details of the chairs currently used by the staff of reporting centres and counter staff of control points respectively, including unit prices, but the Secretary has sidestepped the issue by saying that none of the 600 chairs used by the ImmD exceeds $1,000. As for the 240 chairs used in the reporting centres, the Secretary only said that each costs $4,300 on average. How many of them have unit prices exceeding $10,000? How much does the most expensive chair cost?
In responding to questions raised by Legislative Council Members, the HKPF has adopted an unco-operative attitude in many cases, and even at the Special Finance Committee meetings. It has sidestepped the problem and refused to be subject to monitoring by this Council. It has even deployed statistical tactics to provide incomprehensive figures so that we cannot compare …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN, please raise your supplementary question and stop making comments.
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): My supplementary question is: Secretary, in the main reply, you have mentioned time and again the principle of value-for-money. A chair is value-for-money if the original price is $100,000 but is now sold by the supplier at $50,000. Hong Kong people would like to know if the Government has taken into consideration the principles of thrift, spending appropriately and saving public money in the procurement of these stores. I fail to find the answer in the main reply because a chair costing $50,000 can still be purchased. Secretary, is that the case?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, as I have pointed out in the main reply, the chairs highlighted in the main question are used in the reporting centres and were purchased to meet actual operational needs. Of course, all furniture purchased must be value-for-money and comply with our procurement procedures and guidelines. As I have just said, while the procurement of general office furniture has to conform with the general procurement guidelines, non-standard furniture can be purchased to meet actual operational needs.
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MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): President, I would like to raise a question to the Secretary about whether all civil servants are treated equally and reasonably. Noting that guidelines have been drawn up for the procurement of furniture, how is the principle on which the final decision is based determined? In the main reply, the Secretary pointed out that the price of ImmD's chairs does not exceed $1,000 on average. Given that ImmD staff are also human beings, how come the price of the chairs purchased for ImmD staff is much lower than that for the HKPF staff? Is the Government conniving the HKPF to misuse public money or being mean to the ImmD staff? ImmD staff also have to sit for long hours of hard work every day, why should ImmD staff be put under servitude and exploitation and being targeted? How would the Secretary explain this? Will the Secretary treat all staff fairly when formulating policies in the future, such that the HKPF will not become too powerful and do whatever it wants, just like "TSANG the Condor", who often abuses his power?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN, you have raised your supplementary question. Please let the Secretary reply.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, various departments do need to purchase non-standard furniture based on their operational needs. If we adopt some standard practices and require all departments to use standard furniture, they may not suit the actual operational needs.
Regarding the procurement standards and guidelines, as I have said, procurement decisions must be made according to the principles of value-for-money and public funds are well spent. Since non-standard furniture has different functions and specifications, the prices may vary greatly. We therefore consider that all departments should decide according to their actual operational needs.
As I have stated in the main reply, all procurement decisions must be documented and monitoring mechanisms have been put in place to ensure that all procurements comply with the guidelines.
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MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has not answered my supplementary question.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please repeat your supplementary question.
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): I have highlighted the price difference: the chairs used by the ImmD cost $1,000 each whereas those of the HKPF cost more than $4,000 each …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please repeat your supplementary question.
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): Has the Secretary reviewed the relevant criteria and situation? Given that the price difference of chairs used by the ImmD and the HKPF is more than four folds, does this suggest that ImmD staff have been meanly treated and exploited?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): As I have said earlier, it is very difficult to compare in terms of money. All departments make procurement decisions according to their actual needs and guidelines have been drawn up to ensure that the public funds are well spent.
MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Cantonese): We welcome the Government's concern over occupational safety and health in the Civil Service and the enhancement of efficiency. And yet, looking at the current situation, the difference between a chair costing $4,000 and $1,000 mainly lies in the term "ergonomically-designed".
As pointed out in the Secretary's reply, since the reporting centres operate round the clock, the chairs must meet the ergonomic requirements. May I ask 4236 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 the Secretary if the emphasis is the chair or the user? At present, the majority of civil servants work eight hours a day and have to sit most of the time. So, for how long should they spend on the chairs before the chairs are required to meet the ergonomic requirement? Or, does the ergonomic requirement apply only when a chair is used round the clock? Is the emphasis on the chair or the user?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): I thank Member for this supplementary question. As I have explained in the main reply, information shows that the duty officer of a reporting centre has to operate more than one computer terminal at a time, and there are different needs of the working environment. Therefore, when the COs procure non-standard furniture, they will certainly decide according to the actual operational needs.
IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has explained the criteria for procuring office furniture and the related stores. May I ask if there is any environmental requirement? I am pretty concerned how the authorities would dispose the furniture once their lifespan is over. This highlights the importance of whether or not the furniture is made of environmentally-friendly materials. Can the Secretary explain the criteria in this regard?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): In part (b) of the main reply, I mentioned that in arranging for procurement of stores, government departments have to "consider factors such as operational needs, functions of goods, maintenance requirements, green and legal requirements, cost-effectiveness and market competition".
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): President, I have explained right at the beginning why I consider it more appropriate for the Secretary for Security to come and answer this question. The original motive of raising this oral question is to offer the Government an opportunity to give an account of a media report, which reveals that the reporting centres have more than 100 chairs costing $8,000 to $10,000. This is not a comparison between $4,000 and $1,000, but LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4237
$10,000 and $1,000. And yet, the Government merely replied that the average price is $4,300.
Since the Secretary has come to answer this question on behalf of the Secretary for Security and the Commissioner of Police, can he tell me if the HKPF really has over 100 chairs costing $8,000 to $10,000?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, I just want to reiterate what I have said in the main reply. There are a total of about 240 chairs for use in the reporting centres and each costs $4,300 on average.
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you not know the answer? What makes you think that I will accept such a reply? I ask about the unit price, so simply tell us that you do not know, okay?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, can you provide the information requested by the Member?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, I know the answer and have set out the prices of the general furniture in the main reply.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Member asked if certain chairs are more expensive, as he has highlighted, and he did not ask about the average price. Secretary, can you provide the necessary information?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): As the main question has not asked about the specific details requested by Mr CHAN today, I did not expect him to ask such a question when I prepared for the main reply. Notwithstanding that, in the main reply, I have answered with respect to his main question. Of course, if he wants me to provide additional information, I will follow up after the meeting. (Appendix I)
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MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): President, I have to protest because this oral question was submitted a few weeks ago and the question is very clear. He has deliberately evaded the question.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Member, the Secretary has agreed to provide the necessary information after the meeting.
DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): Secretary, it is correct for the Member to raise this question today because people are well aware of the spendthrift approach adopted by various government departments.
Earlier, an international anti-corruption organization published a report on the Corruption Perceptions Index 2013. The ranking of Hong Kong has further dropped one place to 15th, the lowest in seven years. Does this mean that the cleanliness of the Civil Service is worsening? If so, the Government should implement specific reform measures to improve the guidelines governing the expenditure and procurement of the Civil Service …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr CHIANG, the information provided by you does not relate to the main question. Please raise your supplementary question.
DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): Secretary, will you consider enhancing the monitoring system in this regard?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, I thank the Member for her supplementary question. The Government has attached great importance to how various departments comply with the guidelines when procuring stores, and a number of monitoring mechanisms have been added to the monitoring procedures. As I have said, the Government now relies on two departments, namely the GLD and the Audit Commission, to undertake the monitoring work. The GLD will conduct regular random checks to inspect whether various Policy Bureaux and departments have conducted procurement exercises in accordance with the Regulations and the prescribed procedures, including the procedures to invite quotations from LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4239 suppliers; the arrangements for invitation of quotations; whether the rank of the approving officer conforms with the Regulations; whether any procurement has evaded the financial limit by dividing procurement requirements into instalments. Through regular checking, we should be able to detect any irregularities that do not comply with the Regulations in respect of the procurement procedures. Should there be any irregularities, we will request the department concerned to follow up.
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): President, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen's supplementary question showed that the Secretary has been fooled either by the HKPF or the Secretary for Security. The Secretary has been embarrassed today because he was misled by the Security Bureau and the Commissioner of Police, who have concealed the facts. As a result, he failed to answer Mr CHAN Chi-chuen's question concerning the 100-odd chairs costing $8,000 to $10,000 in the reporting centres. Will the Secretary conduct a review afterwards? He should pursue the issue and make improvements. As the Secretary, he has performed so ignorantly and failed to respond and handle the problem, which is obviously a dereliction of duty.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN, this is not a supplementary question. We have spent more than 22 minutes 30 seconds on this question. Third question.
Quality of Public Hygiene Services
3. MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): It has been reported that a media organization earlier collected samples of toilet paper from public toilets managed by government departments and public organizations for laboratory tests. The test results showed that the bacterial contents of all samples had exceeded the level prescribed in the relevant Mainland standards. Given that some doctors have pointed out that the use of toilet paper with bacterial contents exceeding the prescribed level may cause diseases such as cystitis, the aforesaid situation has aroused concern about whether public health is at hazard. Regarding the quality of public hygiene services, will the Government inform this Council:
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(a) whether the existing legislation has prescribed any standard on the level of bacterial contents of toilet paper; if so, of the details; if not, whether the authorities will prescribe the relevant standards so as to assess the hygienic level of toilet paper; if they will, when such standards will be implemented; if they will not, of the reasons for that;
(b) whether it regularly collects samples of toilet paper from public toilets managed by government departments and public organizations for tests on bacterial contents; whether it has conducted studies on enhancing the design of public toilets, so as to improve their hygiene conditions; if it has conducted such studies, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; of the authorities' measures to step up publicity and education, to raise public awareness of maintaining the hygiene of public toilets, with a view to reducing the breeding and spreading of bacteria and viruses; and
(c) whether it has stipulated in the contracts for outsourced public toilet cleansing services that contractors are required to provide toilet paper that meets hygiene standards; whether it has issued guidelines to contractors regarding matters such as the storage and delivery of toilet paper; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; whether the authorities will consider switching to the direct provision by government departments of public hygiene services that are currently outsourced, so as to ensure the quality of services and enhance the protection for the public; if they will, of the details; if they will not, the reasons for that?
(Mr WONG Kwok-hing put several toilet rolls on the bench)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG, are the toilet rolls on display on the bench the samples with bacterial contents exceeding the prescribed level?
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): President, I borrowed these toilet rolls from public toilets of the Government, and I request that tests on such rolls be conducted by the Food and Health Bureau. I will maintain a distance of about 2 ft from the toilet paper and hence, I think I will not get infected. But I LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4241 notice that the Secretary has worn a mask today, and I am not sure if the Secretary will be cross infected as a result.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): For the sake of health and safety of Members of this Council, will Members please refrain from bringing infectious substances or articles into the Chamber for display purpose.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): If the Government can prove that the toilet paper is uncontaminated, I would be obliged to promote its use among members of the public. But if the Government does not have any conclusive proof about the bacterial content of the toilet paper, I hope the Bureau can take them back for tests and report the findings to this Council accordingly.
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, my reply to the question is as follows:
(a) Under the Consumer Goods Safety Ordinance (the Ordinance) (Cap. 456), "consumer goods" include toilet paper ordinarily sold for private use. The Ordinance stipulates that consumer goods should comply with the "general safety requirement". The circumstances that the Customs and Excise Department (C&ED) as the enforcement agency of the Ordinance would have regard to when considering whether consumer goods comply with the requirement include the safety standards published by a standards institute for consumer goods of the description which applies to the consumer goods concerned. The C&ED would also seek expert advice where necessary. For toilet paper, the C&ED would arrange product testing with reference to the Mainland's national standard GB20810-2006 (national standard) and consult the Department of Health (DH) for expert advice in determining whether the "general safety requirement" is complied with.
(b) In general, contractors are required to supply clean and hygienic toilet paper under the contracts they enter into with government departments or public organizations. Some contracts require the supply of toilet paper with micro-organism levels conforming to the 4242 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
national standard or its latest edition. If the toilet paper supplied by a contractor is found to be sub-standard, the department concerned will demand replacement provisions that conform with the requirements in the contract. Where appropriate, the department may issue warning to or impose punishment on the contractor.
Individual departments have laid down in the contracts express standards for toilet paper. Where this is the case, inspection officers patrolling public toilets will check whether the toilet paper supplied complies with the standards prescribed in the contracts.
The Food and Environmental Hygiene Department (FEHD) monitors closely the quality of service provided by its contractors, and check if they have complied with the requirements in the contract to safeguard public hygiene standards, including those pertaining to toilet paper in public toilets.
The FEHD has made continuous efforts to enhance the public toilet facilities under its management in recent years. New standards have been adopted, whenever circumstances permit, when planning new public toilets, reprovisioning or refurbishing existing ones, and converting aqua privies into flushing toilets. The new standards include installation of sensor-type flushing system for water closet cubicles and urinal bowls, and provision of automatic infrared sensor water taps and hand sanitizers to improve the environmental hygiene of public toilets.
Public toilets under the FEHD are cleaned two to three times a day depending on the public demand and usage of the toilets. Toilet attendants are deployed in frequently-used public toilets or those located at major tourist areas to ensure that the toilets are clean and hygienic. The public may use the hotline numbers provided on notices posted in the toilets to provide suggestions. Support from civic-minded members of the public is of vital importance in keeping public toilets clean and hygienic. Notices appealing for public assistance in keeping public toilets clean and maintaining personal hygiene are put up in public toilets.
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(c) The FEHD has stipulated, in the cleansing contracts, that contractors must supply sufficient amount of consumables (including toilet paper in public toilets) throughout the contract period. The contracts also require the contractors to provide inspection officers with samples of the relevant cleansing material for inspection and trial at least two weeks before the delivery of services. The contractors must seek prior approval from the Government's representative for subsequent changes in the type of the material used. Moreover, a contractor must, within two weeks after the commencement of the contract, submit a certificate or report to the representative of the Government at his own expenses to certify that the toilet paper supplied meets the microbiological standards of the national standard or its latest edition. The certificate must be issued by an accredited laboratory. The FEHD will closely monitor the performance of contractors, including their compliance with the above requirements, so as to ensure that toilet paper in public toilets meets the hygiene standards.
In response to the recent public concern over toilet paper, the Government Logistics Department (GLD) has provided guidelines to various departments on best practices for storage and delivery of toilet paper. The guidelines set out ways to minimize the contamination of toilet paper by the external environment, such as using unwrapped toilet paper as soon as possible, avoiding excessive storage of toilet paper in the toilet compartments and keeping the paper containers clean. Besides, the GLD has advised relevant departments to consider, when signing new contracts with service contractors in future, requesting the contractors to supply toilet paper in individual packing. The departments concerned may also draw up their own requirements and procedures based on their operational needs so as to facilitate compliance by operational staff and service contractors.
The FEHD strives to provide efficient and cost-effective services to the public, which includes the provision of various environmental hygiene services through its contractors. The FEHD is mindful of the importance of keeping public toilets in a clean and hygienic condition. It deploys staff to inspect public toilets regularly for ensuring that the contractors are providing the cleansing services 4244 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
according to the contract. If a contractor performs below the standard stipulated in the contract, the FEHD will take appropriate measures, including giving verbal warnings, written warnings and default notices.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): President, as a colloquial Cantonese expression goes, "Men were born the same but with different fates". As in the case of Hong Kong, even though we are all Hong Kong people, "different" qualities of toilet paper are provided by the Government for public use.
The toilet rolls in front of me come from public toilets or markets all over Hong Kong, Kowloon and the New Territories. As Members can see clearly, the toilet paper is grey in colour, while this roll of toilet paper which comes from the Central Government Offices (CGO) is pure white in colour. The question of my greatest concern, which is also the one on which I most eager to hear the Government's reply, is whether the Government has adopted a fair principle in the provision of toilet paper of the same hygienic level and quality in different locations, yet the Government has not replied at all. Hence, I would like to ask the Secretary again ― as the President has also asked me the same question just now ― whether bacteria or microorganisms are found in these toilet papers? In his main reply, the Secretary has not stated specifically whether the Government has tested the toilet paper for any exceedance of bacteria and microorganisms in the light of the situation revealed by the media. I hope the Secretary can answer this question. If the Secretary cannot reply now, I will give him these toilet rolls later. After conducting the relevant tests, can he provide a report to the Panel on Food Safety and Environmental Hygiene for discussion by Members?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, as I have already pointed out in the main reply, individual departments have laid down specific standards for consumables (including toilet paper), regardless of whether such consumables are procured by the departments on their own or provided by the contractors. Moreover, the contractors are required to submit samples of the relevant material for inspection by government officers two weeks before the delivery of services. Sanctions will be imposed if any non-compliance with the relevant standards is detected. I think this is a more practical approach because I believe the result of random testing of unwrapped LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4245 toilet paper exposed to the environment and come into contact with other public users will be different from the testing result of the original wrapped toilet paper provided by the contractor.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG, what is your question?
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): President, as you have heard, the Secretary has not answered my question at all …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please repeat your supplementary question.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): My supplementary question is as follows: Given that tests conducted by the media reveal that bacteria are found in all samples, whether the Government will conduct sample testing of toilet paper and then report the findings to the Panel on Food Safety and Environmental Hygiene of the Legislative Council for follow up?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Secretary has already responded to your question on sample testing. Secretary, the Member would like to ascertain whether you mean that no sample testing would be conducted. In this regard, do you have anything to add?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, perhaps let me explain again. According to expert views, as toilet paper in public toilets or lavatories is provided for public use, the number of bacteria found on it may increase after coming into contact with different people. Hence, testing laboratories have also advised us against taking samples directly from public toilets. As I said just now, regarding the procurement of goods and services, our gate-keeping task is to inspect samples of all materials before the delivery of relevant goods or services by the contractors.
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MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): President, the crux of Mr WONG Kwok-hing's question is of course whether there is a huge difference in the bacterial contents of toilet paper provided in different toilets. I would like to ask the Secretary whether the problem raised by Mr WONG Kwok-hing may, apart from the different environment of individual toilets, be attributed to the Government's decision based on the price factor. Is the Member right in saying that the white toilet paper used in the CGO is more expensive, while the greyish toilet paper is cheaper; or is all toilet paper procured are originally white in colour, but have turned grey in storage in certain districts with a poor environment?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, as I mentioned in the main reply just now, whenever tender is invited for the procurement of any materials, individual departments will specify in the tender document the standard and specification required to be met. Nonetheless, if Members' concern at this stage is just the colour of toilet paper, my personal view strictly from the medical and hygiene perspectives is that there is not direct relationship between the colour and quality of toilet paper unless the colour has changed as a result of environmental contamination.
MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has not answered whether the prices of the two types of toilet paper are different.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, Mr TIEN wants to know if their prices are different.
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): In respect of price, I believe that the same general tendering principles are adopted by various departments. If all requirements on quality are met, we may choose the bidder whose tender is more cost-effective.
MR TANG KA-PIU (in Cantonese): President, as a matter of fact, the Secretary has neither, in his reply, responded to the Members' questions nor undertook to conduct sample testing and guarantee the quality of toilet paper. As the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4247 contractor is only required to submit samples of toilet paper and reports before the commencement of the contract, and no sample testing would be conducted by government departments thereafter, I would like to repeat the question stated in part (c) of the main question, that is, in order to ensure the quality of services, whether the Bureau would put these services under the charge of the FEHD again so that the services would be provided directly by civil servants?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, regarding the cleaning services of different government departments, some departments would adopt the mode of direct provision while others would resort to outsourcing. In the former case, we certainly have an internal mechanism to monitor the quality of services. As for outsourcing services, we also have a monitoring mechanism in place. Apart from specifying in the contracts the requirements in respect of the quantity and quality of services, a mechanism is in place to monitor these outsourced services. Individual departments would be allowed to decide for themselves whether some kinds of services should be outsourced, having regard to their own conditions and needs.
MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Cantonese): President, at present, different lists of registered contractors have been compiled for various Government works projects, so as to differentiate between qualified and unqualified contractors. In view of the grave public concern about the hygiene of toilet paper in public toilets, will the Government consider compiling a list of toilet paper suppliers, so that the Government would only need to regularly inspect and conduct sample testing on the quality of toilet paper provided by the suppliers on the list, which also serves to reduce the workload involved in conducting sample tests in different locations. Will the Government consider this proposal?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, I think different approaches would apply for different services. For some services, we have indeed compiled lists of contractors. However, on the question of whether a list of toilet paper suppliers should be drawn up, I admit that I am not an expert in this area. Perhaps I will consider this question further after consulting the experts in the GLD.
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IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, the questions in the three parts of the main question have already exceeded the scope of toilet paper as they also relate to how the FEHD monitors and inspects the services provided by outsourced cleaning companies. President, I also have a frightening experience myself. I once saw syringes in the toilet compartments and washing basins in a public toilet in Yau Ma Tei. Of course, I dared not touch the toilet paper and just ran out immediately. I would like to ask if the Secretary is aware of the situation, and what work has been done by the FEHD in monitoring?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): Regarding the situation in public toilets under the FEHD, monitoring would be exercised as necessary according to their location and usage. For example, public toilets would be cleaned at least two times a day generally. Of course, when cleaning the toilets, the staff would check for the conditions as mentioned by Ir Dr LO. If any irregularity is found, they would definitely remove those articles. Depending on the location, some public toilets would be cleaned three times or more a day. Toilet attendants are even deployed in some public toilets in crowded locations or adjacent to famous tourism spots. On the other hand, as I mentioned just now, co-operation from members of the general public and the users is vital in keeping public toilets hygienic. If all of us can do our part in maintaining personal and environmental hygiene, and dispose of the articles in appropriate places, the condition mentioned by the Member will not arise.
MR PAUL TSE (in Cantonese): President, according to the Secretary's analysis just now, if toilet paper has been unwrapped for use, it would be unsuitable for laboratory testing or for conducting any reasonable and useful tests for bacterial contents, yet in part (a) of the main reply, the Secretary stated that consumer goods should comply with the "general safety requirement". I would like to learn more about the Secretary's expert view as to what level of exceedance is required to cause diseases such as cystitis, as claimed in the report? Is this possible? Or is the press report exaggerating or misleading?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): Speaking from my general medical knowledge, I can only say that the higher the bacterial contents, the greater the chance of causing diseases, but it would also depend on the types of specific bacteria. Nonetheless, the most important thing is that even if the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4249 toilet paper is clean, the user may inadvertently come into contact with dirty excretion as he cleans his hands with toilet paper. What then is the most important thing to do? In fact, it is most important to wash hands. I think that in most cases, apart from the actual bacterial contents of the personal hygiene products, how such products are used is also important. In general, the bacterial contents of toilet paper are within the safety standard.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has not answered one part of my main question, that is, why different kinds of toilet paper are provided even though all people should be equal? Why good quality toilet paper is used in the CGO, yet poor quality toilet paper is provided for public use? If both are of the same quality as claimed, why is toilet paper of the same standard supplied by different suppliers? I hope the Secretary can reply these questions, or else the CGO should also use this kind of toilet paper in order to convince the public.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, is there any difference in the standard of toilet paper used in the CGO and public toilets?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, first of all, I do not think toilet paper of a unified quality standard should be used in all places, departments or public toilets. Moreover, I also do not quite understand what Mr WONG Kwok-hing meant with regard to "poor quality toilet paper" because when he spoke earlier, I thought one of the points he mentioned was the different colours of the two kinds of toilet paper. However, I think different people would have different views on the quality of toilet paper. While some people may prefer more absorbent toilet paper, some may prefer softer toilet paper and others harder one. The crux is that I do not see any major relationship between the quality of toilet paper and its colour, unless the colour has changed due to contamination.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): President, I would not have asked this question had the same kind of toilet paper was used in the CGO and public toilets. This is exactly a double standard, President …
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG, no debate is allowed during Question Time. If you disagree with the Secretary's reply, please follow up on other occasions. This Council has spent almost 23 minutes 30 seconds on this question. Fourth question.
Development of New Tourism Resources
4. MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): President, some members of the tourism industry have pointed out that, with the implementation of the Individual Visit Scheme, there have been changes in the travel patterns of inbound tourists in recent years. It is no longer viable for Hong Kong to rely solely on traditional attractions and shopping to attract tourists to come again. There is thus a need to integrate the existing tourism resources to promote thematic tourism with characteristics. They have also pointed out that as tourists now move around mainly in tourist areas, other districts cannot share the economic benefits of tourism and the tourism resources in such districts are also left idle. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether there are plans to make use of the distinctive tourism resources in various districts, including natural scenery, cuisine, historic buildings, temples, churches, and so on, to draw up tour routes of different themes and formulate relevant policies for development and promotion; if there are, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(b) as I have learnt that in order to promote district-wise economic development and employment, various District Councils (DCs) have proposed to develop tourism projects of different themes, including eco-tourism for Sai Kung District, the Aberdeen Tourism Project of the Southern District, the Sun Yat-sen Historical Trail and the "Religious Trail" of the Central and Western District, and so on, whether the authorities have drawn up any long-term development plan in relation to the tourism projects put forward by various DCs, so as to support and guide various DCs in developing such projects, and co-ordinate various DCs to conduct joint promotional activities; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
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(c) given that some members in the community have expressed the view that the Yu Lan Ghost Festival, which has been put on the third national list of intangible cultural heritage, has attracted quite a number of visitors to come here for its reputation, but the organizing teams of the Festival are ageing, giving rise to a succession problem, and there is also a lack of venues for organizing such activities, whether the authorities have assessed the tourism values of traditional festive activities and related traditional handicrafts, and formulated specific preservation and support measures pinpointing the difficulties encountered; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; whether the authorities have plans to promote traditional festivals integrated with elements of tourism to tourists; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, tourism is a major pillar of Hong Kong's economy. The Government attaches great importance to the development of tourism. All along, the Government has been partnering with the Hong Kong Tourism Board (HKTB) to promote Hong Kong globally as a leading international city in Asia and a world-class tourist destination. Our rich tourism resources are the main factor that drives our tourism development. Not only do we have theme parks, fine wine and culinary delights as well as mega events, but also eastern and western festivities, local living culture, historic buildings and breath-taking natural scenery. The Government has been working with the tourism sector, the HKTB, the operators of tourist attractions, other related parties including the DCs, and so on, on how to utilize these resources to promote Hong Kong more effectively.
My reply to the three parts of the question is as follows:
(a) Apart from the major tourist attractions, the HKTB is also actively encouraging our tourists to visit and spend in different districts so as to generate greater economic benefits to Hong Kong. In recent years, the HKTB has used different channels, including the Internet, social media, smartphone applications with augmented reality technology, pamphlets, and so on, to promote a number of themed routes bundling various attractions in the districts. Examples include "Travel Through Time" of Central and Sheung Wan, 4252 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
"Evolvement of a Fishing Village" of Shau Kei Wan, "A Popular Temple and a City Transformed" of Wong Tai Sin and Kowloon City, Yuen Long Ping Shan Heritage Trail, Fanling Lung Yeuk Tau Heritage Trail, and so on. To further integrate the tourism resources of each district for its promotion, the HKTB plans to introduce a dedicated webpage to promote the various tourism offerings in the 18 districts in stages next year. The webpage will feature unique attractions and buildings, local living culture, dining delights, themed shopping streets and specialty markets, and so on, of various districts.
In addition, the HKTB launched the New Tour Product Development Scheme (NTPDS) in November 2012 to encourage the travel trade to develop new themed tours with the marketing costs partly subsidized by the HKTB. As at the end of 2013, the scheme has subsidized 12 themed tours, including the "Sham Shui Po Foodie Tour" which takes visitors on a local culinary journey, and the "Six Senses Heritage Experience" which features a cycling tour in Yuen Long and a "big bowl feast" in the walled village. The NTPDS has received positive feedback from the travel trade and the HKTB will continue to run the scheme and encourage the travel trade to unleash their creativity to utilize the tourism resources of different districts.
(b) The Government has been keeping track of different district tourism projects proposed by the DCs. Having regard to the nature of these projects and the interests of our tourists, we will, through the HKTB, promote them to tourists and encourage the travel trade to develop new tour products. From time to time, the Tourism Commission (TC) and the HKTB attended upon invitations the meetings of the DCs as well as their committees and working groups to provide advice and assistance on the planning, implementation and promotion of district tourism projects. For example, the TC and the HKTB participated in the planning of the Sun Yat-sen Historical Trail in the Central and Western District and have been promoting the trail through various channels since its completion. At present, the TC is carrying out improvement works with the theme of a traditional fishermen's village for the promenades on both sides of the Aberdeen Harbour as well as for Ap Lei Chau Main Street and adjacent streets. Leveraging on the improvement works, the HKTB LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4253
and the Southern District Council will continue to promote the local characteristics of Aberdeen to visitors. As regards Sai Kung District, the TC, the Agriculture, Fisheries and Conservation Department and the HKTB, through the HKTB's "Great Outdoors Hong Kong" marketing platform, have been working together to promote nature-based green tourism offerings in the district.
(c) The Government completed the first territory-wide survey of intangible cultural heritage (ICH) in Hong Kong in May 2013. The survey findings were discussed thoroughly by the ICH Advisory Committee and a draft ICH inventory of 477 items was drawn up. Out of these items, 291 of them are under the domain of "social practices, rituals and festive events" and 126 items under the domain of "traditional craftsmanship". Taking into account the views of the community on the draft ICH inventory, the Government would publish the first ICH inventory list for Hong Kong in early 2014. After that, the Government will devise and implement a host of conservation measures.
On tourism promotion of ICH, the HKTB actively promotes to tourists traditional festivals under the third national list of intangible cultural heritage including the Cheung Chau Jiao Festival, the Tai O dragon boat water parade, the Tai Hang fire dragon dance and the Yu Lan Ghost Festival of the Hong Kong Chiu Chow community. The HKTB promotes the first three festivals through its promotion platform and mega events. As regards the Yu Lan Ghost Festival, the HKTB worked with the Federation of the Hong Kong Chiu Chow Community Organizations this year to publicize the festival at the Argyle Street Playground in Kowloon City as well as the Chinese opera performances in various districts and arranged overseas media to do the filming. The HKTB also introduced the activities of the festival to visitors staying in town through the in-room TV channel and the HKTB visitor centres.
On promotion of traditional handicrafts, the NTPDS of the HKTB supports the development of relevant new tourism products by the travel trade. For example, in the tour "Hand Made in Hong Kong", visitors can have a glimpse of some of the city's age-old handicrafts, such as face threading, tailoring, shoemaking and metal tooling, with 4254 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
the master craftspeople sharing the history of their trades. The HKTB will continue to encourage the trade to develop tourism products in this area.
MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): President, according to the Secretary's reply, at present, the Government's assistance provided to various districts is mainly in the areas of publicity and promotion without any substantial support. Have the authorities planned to pick one or two highlight events each year featuring the local characteristics of various districts in Hong Kong and take the initiative to work with the districts concerned by injecting capital to improve the tourism ancillaries, enhancing the tourism elements and strengthening the promotion arrangements, so that the 18 districts of Hong Kong can gradually be provided with support on a regular basis?
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): I thank Mr YIU for the supplementary question. Mr YIU is right in saying that Hong Kong needs diversified tourism development. Many of the activities that I mentioned just now were launched by the HKTB and the TC in concert with the industry, and the NTPDS is one of the examples that is launched by the industry with our resources. The activities launched in concert with the DCs are district-specific, with the objective of promoting the tourist attractions in the district which the DC consider worth developing, thereby enriching the tourists' experience of visiting the relevant tourist attractions.
Of course, resources are very important in promoting tourist attractions. In this respect, the HKTB has close liaisons with all DCs. For example, there are many local culinary delights worth recommending. Such culinary delights may not be known to overseas tourists who are unfamiliar with the Hong Kong environment and they may not even know the names of these foods. Hence the HKTB has to do some work in this area. Let me cite an example. If a tourist sees some nice food in Hong Kong but does not know how to say them in Cantonese, he can look up the menu on the website, and then he can easily pronounce the name of the food. In these websites, we join hands with the industry to promote various tourist attractions, culinary delights and areas considered worthy of development. Through concerted efforts, the DCs can promote the culture, sightseeing spots and culinary delights of their respective districts. With the help of the GSP system, tourists can easily access the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4255 promotion information about the history, culinary delights and culture of the particular district that they are visiting. Such kind of promotion activity has to be diversified and creative, not just a mere presentation of information. From the number of browses by tourists, we can also learn what tourist attractions are more appealing to them, and this information is of valuable reference.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): President, he has not answered my supplementary question. I asked whether the authorities would pick one or two highlight events and co-operate with the local community in organizing such events.
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): The first part of Mr YIU's question is in the right direction but I think that we should have a diversified development, instead of focusing on one or two events. The promotion of feature attractions in different districts also needs concerted efforts. For example, the Sun Yat-sen Historical Trail of the Central and Western District which, as I mentioned earlier, needs support in all areas. In respect of publicity, when the HKTB promotes "Hong Kong Walks", it will introduce the features of each district in respect of food, culture and sightseeing spots, so as to fully bring out the best attractions in each district to enrich the tourists' experience in their visits.
MR CHUNG KWOK-PAN (in Cantonese): President, two weeks ago I asked the Secretary in this Council what new industries could be developed. I mentioned the fashion industry and the Secretary responded very positively, saying that Sham Shui Po in particular could be developed into a place similar to Dongdaemun in South Korea.
From the main reply to this question, I learn that the HKTB has launched the "Sham Shui Po Foodie Tour". Mr YIU Si-wing asked if focused effort could be made in promoting one or two highlight events. Hence, if the Secretary thinks that Sham Shui Po can be developed into a fashion spot and the HKTB is 4256 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 promoting a foodie tour there, may I suggest that we launch a local landmark activity titled "Endless Food and Clothing" as part of the NTPDS?
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, I consider the "Endless Food and Clothing" proposed by Mr CHUNG a wonderful idea. We have fine wine and exquisite cuisine and can also promote the "Endless Food and Clothing" activity. There are such features in Sham Shui Po which are developing robustly. This is a wonderful idea and I will relay it to the relevant parties for consideration.
In Sham Shui Po ― I may have digressed a little ― fashion products have attracted many tourists. For example, the "Fashion Street" in Cheung Sha Wan is highly popular among tourists. We will incorporate the idea into "Create Hong Kong". Next Friday, I will attend the "Fashion Farm Foundation". It will not only showcase Hong Kong's attraction in its creativity in fashion but also attract tourists to come to Hong Kong to especially see such exhibitions.
DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): President, according to the Government's statistics, there were 36.03 million inbound tourists in 2010, among them, 22.68 million, or 62%, were from the Mainland; in 2011, among the 41.92 million inbound tourists, 28.1 million, or 67%, were from the Mainland; in 2012, among the 48.61 million inbound tourists, 34.9 million, or 72%, were from the Mainland; and as at October this year, among the 44.5 million inbound tourists, 33.51 million, or 75%, were from the Mainland.
President, these figures clearly indicate that tourists from the Mainland continue to increase but we can see from another angle that inbound international tourists continue to decrease. Hong Kong is an international metropolitan and financial centre. If the number of inbound international tourists continues to dwindle, it will certainly jeopardize the international status and image of Hong Kong and even deal a blow to its economic strength and sustainable competitiveness …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please raise you supplementary question.
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DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): Secretary, my supplementary question today is simple enough, other than the promotion tactics mentioned in the main reply, and the promotion of the New Cruise Terminal in the past, I would like to know what new tactics and ideas the Government has to attract more overseas international tourists to come to Hong Kong for consumption, sightseeing and business, thus increase the ratio of international tourists and promote economic development.
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): I thank Dr LAM Tai-fai for his supplementary question. Indeed, the percentage of inbound tourists from the Mainland has continued to rise in recent years while that of European and North American tourists has continued to fall, which to a certain extent reflects the present global economic environment. The sluggish economy in Europe and North America in recent years has certainly dampened the consumption and travel sentiment of their people. On account of the above reasons, to a certain extent the aforesaid phenomenon is not due to insufficient promotion but the sluggish economy.
As you are aware, and I have also explained to this Council time and again, the funds spent by the HKTB in its promotion work in the Mainland only account for 30% of the total while the funds spent in the overseas market is 70%. It can thus be revealed that the HKTB targets at drawing more long or short-haul overseas tourists to Hong Kong. Mr YIU Si-wing has also mentioned just now that we cannot rely solely on the traditional attractions but need to develop attractions with unique features to attract tourists. As such, I have mentioned in the main reply that the introduction of some unique handicrafts in new tourism products such as the tour "Hand Made in Hong Kong" will have certain appeal to overseas tourists. In our recent NTPDS, we also join hands with the industry to launch some nine-hour eco-tourism activities. These are cultural and eco-tours that take tourists to various places in Hong Kong in nine hours; the theme of such activity is culture and environment tour. All these plans are especially designed for the overseas market in the hope of drawing more overseas tourists to Hong Kong. Moreover, there are also activity plans such as gourmet tours that especially cater for the tastes of overseas tourists. We wish to have a diversified development and we invite local people, including the DCs, to recommend more attraction spots that are worth promoting in order to enrich the experience of tourists, especially those from overseas, of their visits in Hong Kong.
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LAM, what is your point?
DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): President, I did not complain about the inadequacy of the authorities' promotion. My supplementary question is: Apart from the measures mentioned in the main reply, what other new measures the Government will take to increase the ratio of international tourists. We cannot sit still and wait. He did not answer what new tactics the Government has. Frankly, after hearing his main reply, I do not think those measures can attract overseas tourists.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LAM, the Secretary has answered. If you are not satisfied, please put forward your proposals to the Secretary on other occasions.
MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, in part (c) of the main reply, the Government mentioned that the survey of intangible cultural heritage (ICH) in Hong Kong had found over 200 items in total and it would devise and implement a host of conservation measures. I would like to ask how the conservation measures are related to the development of the ICH items into tourism resources. In other words, when the Government formulates the relevant policies, will it also assess what items can be developed into tourism attractions?
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): I thank Mr MA Fung-kwok for the supplementary question. First of all, let us take a look at the draft ICH inventory. From the inventory, Members will find that the ICH items listed covers an extensive scope, including special festive events, our dialects, gourmet foods and even kung fu, which can all be categorized as the ICH items. In respect of these vast varieties of the ICH items, we have to adopt different promotion tactics to attract more tourists to Hong Kong through different means. For example, many tourists are attracted by the Chinese martial arts to come to Hong Kong. We will review the draft ICH inventory and after the inventory is published we will pick some items that are relatively special and more likely to attract larger tourist groups and then reassess our tourism strategy.
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent 22 minutes on this question. Fifth question.
Services Provided for Children with Autism or Hyperactivity Disorder
5. MR CHEUNG KWOK-CHE (in Cantonese): In the 2010-2011 Policy Address, the Government indicated that it would enhance the services provided for autistic children on aspects such as healthcare, education and pre-school services, including providing more information about autism to parents and carers of autistic children and expanding the professional team for relevant healthcare services. Besides, the Government indicated in the Budget released subsequently that services would be provided for an additional 3 000 or so children with autism or hyperactivity disorder each year. Regarding the services provided for children (that is, persons aged under 18) with autism or hyperactivity disorder, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the respective numbers of children who were assessed for autism or hyperactivity disorder in each of the past three years, broken down by age; among such children, of the respective numbers of those who were diagnosed to be autistic children with and without intellectual disabilities, as well as those diagnosed to have hyperactivity disorder; of the current number of autistic children in the territory according to the authorities' estimation;
(b) of the respective details concerning the healthcare, education and welfare services provided for children with autism or hyperactivity disorder by the authorities in the past three years, and the respective waiting time for such services; and
(c) whether the targets of the healthcare, education and welfare services currently provided for autistic children include autistic children without intellectual disabilities; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, my reply to the question raised by Mr CHEUNG is as follows:
(a) The Department of Health (DH) provides comprehensive assessment services through its Child Assessment Service (CAS) for children 4260 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
under 12 years of age who are suspected to have problems during their growth stage, including those with tendency for or symptoms of autism or hyperactivity disorder. After the assessment, the Child Assessment Centres (CACs) will formulate follow-up plans and make referrals according to the needs of individual children.
In each of the past three years, the six CACs under the DH conducted assessment for over 8 000 children. Among them, the number of confirmed autism cases were between 1 600 and 1 800 and that of confirmed cases of hyperactivity disorder between 2 000 and 2 200. Of the confirmed autism cases, 900 to 1 100 children also have developmental delay/intellectual disabilities. The detailed figures are set out in Annex.
As the CAS of the DH is not the only service unit to provide developmental assessment services for children in Hong Kong, the Administration cannot project the total number of persons suffering from autism in Hong Kong based on the above figures.
(b) and (c)
Following preliminary assessment by the CAC of the DH, children with autistic tendency or symptoms will be referred to the specialist out-patient clinics of the Hospital Authority (HA) for further assessment and treatment.
In 2012-2013, the HA provided relevant medical services for over 6 100 children and adolescents suffering from autism and over 6 800 children and adolescents suffering from hyperactivity disorder. Autistic children with intellectual disabilities can also use the services provided for autistic children by the HA.
To enhance the support for children and adolescents suffering from autism or hyperactivity disorder, the HA expanded the multi-disciplinary team comprising various healthcare practitioners in 2011-2012 to provide early identification, assessment and treatment for an additional 3 000 children with autism or hyperactivity disorder each year. The professional team will provide appropriate treatment and training for autistic children in LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4261
order to help them develop better speech and communication skills, improve interpersonal relationships and social skills, problem solving skills, behaviour adjustment and emotional management, so as to help them communicate and get along with others in daily life.
As regards services provided by CAS of the DH, in the past three years, nearly all new cases were attended to within three weeks, and assessments for over 90% of the newly registered cases were completed within six months. In 2012-2013, the median waiting time for first appointment of the HA's child and adolescent psychiatric services was about 19 weeks.
On education support services, autistic students with intellectual disabilities will attend schools for children with intellectual disabilities for intensive support, while other students having autism or hyperactivity disorder but are of average intelligence will attend ordinary schools.
To help ordinary primary and secondary schools cater for students with special educational needs (SEN) (including students with autism and hyperactivity disorder), the Education Bureau has been providing additional resources on top of the regular subvention, professional support and teacher training for schools, and encouraging schools to adopt the 3-Tier Intervention Model(1) to support students with SEN. Schools may flexibly deploy resources to employ additional teaching staff and/or procure professional services to render appropriate support for the students.
In addition, since the 2011-2012 school year, the Education Bureau has launched a pilot project on the enhancement of support services for students with autism in ordinary primary and secondary schools which comprises structured on-top small group training for students with autism. The Education Bureau also published the "Development of Executive Skills Resource Package" in the
(1) Tier-1 support ― quality teaching in the regular classroom to help students with mild or transient learning difficulties. Tier-2 support ― "add-on" intervention for students with persistent learning difficulties, including those with SEN, for example, small group learning and pull out programmes. Tier-3 support ― intensive individualized support for students with severe learning difficulties and SEN. 4262 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
2009-2010 school year for primary schools to strengthen the executive skills of students with hyperactivity disorder through school-based group training programme.
Should students with autism or hyperactivity disorder still exhibit severe emotional and behavioural problems despite the school-based remedial support, schools may, upon parental consent, refer the students to the Adjustment Unit of the Education Bureau for pull-out intensive intervention. For those students who do not show significant improvement after receiving support, the Education Bureau will consider providing schools with a time-limited grant to employ teacher assistants to provide individualized support in order to help the students concerned to establish classroom routines.
On the welfare front, the Government has strived to provide children from birth to six years old with disabilities or at risk of becoming disabled with early intervention through pre-school rehabilitation services, with a view to enhancing their physical, psychological and social developments, thus improving their chances of studying in ordinary schools and participating in daily life activities, and helping their families meet their special needs.
The Early Education and Training Centres, the Special Child Care Centres and the Integrated Programme in Kindergarten-cum-Child Care Centres of the Social Welfare Department (SWD) provide training for children with disabilities, including those diagnosed with autism and hyperactivity disorder. There are currently a total of 6 245 pre-school rehabilitation places. The SWD anticipates that about 607 additional places will come on stream in 2013-2014. The waiting time for the SWD's pre-school services in 2010-2011, 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 are 10 to 15 months, 12 to 17 months and 13 to 17 months respectively.
Meanwhile, the Community Care Fund has launched an assistance programme on "Training Subsidy for Children who are on the Waiting List of Subvented Pre-school Rehabilitation Services" since December 2011 to provide training subsidy at a maximum of $2,615 per month for pre-school children (including those with autism and hyperactivity disorder) from low-income families who LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4263
are in need of rehabilitation services, thereby enabling them to receive self-financing services operated by non-governmental organizations and facilitating their learning and development.
Annex
The number of cases confirmed by the six CACs of the DH as autism spectrum disorders (that is, autism, Asperger's Syndrome, high functioning autism, autistic tendency) or attention deficit/hyperactivity problem/disorder in the past three years is listed below:
2010 2011 2012 Autism spectrum disorders Number of cases in which the children were aged under 1 459 1 385 1 322 six Number of cases in which the children were aged six or 330 222 245 above Total number of cases of autism spectrum disorders 1 789 1 607 1 567 Attention deficit/hyperactivity problem/disorder Number of cases in which the children were aged under 707 917 875 six Number of cases in which the children were aged six or 1 375 1 317 1 307 above Total number of cases of attention deficit/hyperactivity 2 082 2 234 2 182 problem/disorder
Some children may have more than one kind of developmental problems or disabilities. The number of cases confirmed by the CACs as suffering from both autism and developmental delays/intellectual disabilities in the past three years is as follows:
2010 2011 2012 Number of cases confirmed as suffering from both autism 1 078 1 018 895 and developmental delays/intellectual disabilitiesNote
Note:
Developmental delay generally refers to a condition in which a pre-school child exhibits obvious delay in his/her general development as compared with those of the same age. Diagnosis of intellectual disabilities may be confirmed after the child is assessed by a standardized intelligence quotient test when he/she reaches school age.
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It is worth noting that with changes in the definition and classification of developmental disabilities of children over the past decade, the CACs have to modify the categories and definition of cases. Hence, it is not appropriate to compare the number of cases for individual categories across the years.
MR CHEUNG KWOK-CHE (in Cantonese): President, early identification and early intervention are very important in tackling illnesses or providing services. My question straddles across three Policy Bureaux but today only the bureau with the best performance is responsible to give a reply. This is probably because this bureau is responsible for early identification and it has very detailed information. But it is not the same case for the Education Bureau and the Labour and Welfare Bureau. As evident from the main reply, the waiting time for the SWD's pre-school services can be as long as 17 months. In other words, children may only receive such service when they have almost finished their kindergarten education and are about to enter Primary One. After entering Primary One, the case will be under the purview of the Education Bureau. However, as far as I know, the Education Bureau considers all problems solved by simply granting an allowance of $10,000 to schools for each student. As a result, the students may not receive the most appropriate service even in school.
Secretary, as you are the only Secretary to attend the meeting today to answer this question, I am sorry that you have to reply my following supplementary question. Just now the Secretary pointed out in his main reply that an expanded multi-disciplinary healthcare team has been established to provide services. Can the Secretary promise to set up a cross-department and multi-disciplinary team to study the provision of one-stop follow-up services so that students may, after being identified, receive all the necessary services from pre-school service to primary school support? Can the Secretary also promise to take appropriate follow-up actions regarding the subsequent arrangements such as manpower support?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, I share the view of Mr CHEUNG that one-stop service is most ideal so that children will be identified earlier when they are still very young and can be given appropriate support before school, in school and even in society.
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How such mode can be designed in practice and the appropriate resource support be identified (including an estimate of the number of rehabilitation supporting staff or allied health professionals to be trained) is in fact a very big question. As such, we have earlier established the Review Committee on Mental Health under which the Expert Group for Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services (the Expert Group) is specifically set up to handle children with autism, hyperactivity disorder or related problems as I have mentioned just now. The Expert Group will design an effective mode and explore how to achieve the purpose of providing one-stop service in operation on the basis of such mode.
I admit that this is no easy task. In this regard, I believe the Expert Group will definitely make reference to the existing modes of other countries to evaluate which modes are worthy of reference and which have given rise to problems.
The Review Committee on Mental Health will hold a meeting a few days later and as far as I know, the Expert Group will submit its report at the meeting to brief the current services. Only by reviewing the current services and their inadequacies, as well as by making reference to the effective modes of other places, can the Expert Group put forward constructive recommendations to give directions to the development of such services in the coming years.
MR IP KIN-YUEN (in Cantonese): President, I am not sure whether the Secretary can answer this supplementary question on behalf of the SWD. In the main reply, the Secretary mentioned that the average waiting time for the SWD's pre-school rehabilitation services in 2012-2013 is 13 to 17 months which is getting longer and longer. If children having been assessed and diagnosed need to wait for over one year or even one and a half years before they receive pre-school rehabilitation services, by then the time for them to enjoy such services is almost over. Will this hinder their rehabilitation progress? What difficulties are encountered by the authorities that have resulted in such long waiting time for children? Are there any ways and plans to make improvement?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, a direct impression is that there is a discrepancy between the capacity of service provision and the number of children in need of the services. That is why some children have to wait. Nonetheless, the SWD has been very concerned about such pre-school training and has been monitoring the waiting time for pre-school 4266 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 services. It has also made good use of the resources available to help children in need to get the services as early as possible.
The SWD has since December 2006 implemented a series of measures, which include enhancing the computer system, simplifying the application procedures and avoiding duplicate applications, and so on, with a view to streamlining the waiting arrangement. Moreover, the number of pre-school rehabilitation places has been increased steadily by the SWD in the past few years. Over the past six years from the 2007-2008 to 2012-2013 financial years, funding has been allocated to provide a total of 1 483 additional places, representing an increase of almost 30%. It is anticipated that about 607 additional places would come on stream in 2013-2014.
On the other hand, given that some children are still on the waiting list, the Community Care Fund has launched the Assistance Programme of "Training Subsidy for Children who are on the Waiting List of Subvented Pre-school Rehabilitation Services" since December 2011, with a view to providing training subsidies for pre-school children from low-income families in need of rehabilitation services for a maximum period of 12 months, so as to enable them to receive necessary services as soon as possible to facilitate their learning and development. Administered by the SWD, the Programme provides a maximum monthly subsidy of $2,615 for each eligible child for receiving not less than four sessions of pre-school training and parent support services. These include individual or group training and therapy services of a minimum of three hours provided by special child care workers, psychologists, physiotherapists or speech therapists, as well as family support services provided by special child care workers, psychologists, therapists or social workers.
In view of the effectiveness of this Programme, the Steering Committee on Community Care Fund has endorsed to extend it to March 2014 and a new round of applications will be invited starting from 31 July 2013 until 31 October 2013. On the other hand, the Government is considering incorporating the Programme into its regular subvented services.
MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): President, it is a pity that the Secretary for Education is not here today as my supplementary question is related to education.
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In the main reply to Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che's question, the Secretary has pointed out that to help ordinary primary and secondary schools cater for students with SEN, schools may flexibly deploy resources to employ additional teaching staff and/or procure professional services. As far as I know, schools may receive a subsidy ranging from $10,000 to $20,000 for each student with SEN. Some enthusiastic schools would like to procure certain services but their good intention cannot be fulfilled as the subsidies are far from adequate to pay for the costs. On the contrary, the subsidies given to some less proactive schools may be returned intact to the Education Bureau …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please ask your supplementary question.
MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): … this cannot help students with SEN at all. Therefore, I would like to ask the Secretary whether a comprehensive review on such subsidy mode will be conducted to ascertain if it is effective in helping students with SEN through procurement of services or flexible use of resources by schools, and how far it is effective. If it is not effective, will another approach be adopted to deal with the problem? If students with SEN cannot be benefited, it will be meaningless. How can these students genuinely benefit and get assistance?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please let the Secretary reply. Secretary, please.
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, excuse me. I would like to seek clarification. To my understanding, what Mr LEUNG refers to just now is ordinary schools but it seems that he has mentioned special schools as well. Does Mr LEUNG refer to ordinary schools or special schools?
MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): I am not talking about special schools, I refer to the situation of students with SEN in ordinary schools which are currently provided with a subsidy ranging from $10,000 to $20,000 for each student with SEN …
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You have stated your question clearly.
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, the question is clear. Thanks to Mr LEUNG for his clarification. I believe what Mr LEUNG refers to just now is the pilot project on the enhancement of support services for students with autism launched by the Education Bureau. This pilot project aims at providing additional support on top of existing resources and services with a target to cover around 40% of students with autism.
I share the view of Mr LEUNG that the effectiveness of the services should be reviewed. In this regard, the Education Bureau has carried out planned visits to schools to assess the effectiveness of the services and through consultation with the schools under observation, it will give instant advice to the instructors of service providers on areas for improvement. Besides, at least two quality assurance conferences will be held annually with the service providers to put forward recommendations for improvement of services. A survey will also be conducted with major stakeholders including parents, school teaching staff and professionals within the Bureau for monitoring purpose.
However, if what Mr LEUNG refers to is the overall service in the wider sense, then as pointed out in my earlier reply to other Members' question, it is ideal for the service to cover all aspects from assessment and diagnosis, and from pre-school to school support, and certainly to be categorized into ordinary school support and special school support. I think the overall review should be conducted by the aforesaid Expert Group set up under the Review Committee on Mental Health. The Expert Group should also review the services straddling across various departments and bureaux to ascertain the service quality and inadequacies, followed by a submission of holistic recommendations. In fact, the Review Committee on Mental Health comprises representatives from relevant bureaux and departments mentioned by Members just now.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): The Secretary may have some misunderstanding. What I refer to are children with SEN as the Secretary has LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4269 also indicated in the main reply to Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che's question that the service is not limited to children with autism. The Education Bureau is currently providing subsidies to schools but it is a pity that some schools have never utilized the subsidies and have simply returned them intact to the Education Bureau. Therefore, there is simply no service to help students with SEN …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please let the Secretary reply.
MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): … May I ask the Secretary how the problem can be solved?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, although I may not fully grasp the detailed information mentioned by Mr LEUNG, my reply actually carries such meaning. As the questions involved are whether the schools have provided the relevant services after being allocated with the resources and whether such services are effective, the Education Bureau has been monitoring the situation after the allocation of resources to schools, as I have mentioned just now. If Mr LEUNG refers to the overall service that straddles across a number of areas, I believe it should be reviewed by the aforesaid Review Committee.
DR FERNANDO CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Children with autism, hyperactivity disorder or attention deficit disorder will be referred to the HA's child and adolescent psychiatric services for diagnosis and treatment. In the main reply, the Secretary indicated that the median waiting time for first appointment of such services is 19 weeks. President, here is a photo taken by parents two months ago at Queen Mary Hospital. It shows a notice posted outside the child and adolescent psychiatric clinic of the Hospital which states that first appointment for general cases will be in October 2015. That means a waiting time of two whole years. I would like to ask the Secretary whether this is regarded as "early intervention" for these children when they need to wait for two years just to consult the doctor. How can the authorities help these children?
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SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): I admit that among all the current service areas under the HA, including those mentioned by Mr CHEUNG, there are some areas which I consider unsatisfactory in terms of waiting time. I believe what the HA can do at this moment is to enhance its services and shorten the waiting time as far as possible with the existing resources and manpower. When the new chairman of the HA was appointed, we had also discussed with him the situation of individual specialist services, so as to examine which specialists services have particularly long waiting time. Specific process enhancement will be considered in order to shorten the waiting time for such services.
On the overall service resources, however, as the current manpower is limited, I believe we need to conduct a review first to see how we can give support in the next stage by training an appropriate number of healthcare staff and allied health professionals with a view to improving the quality of our service.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): This Council has spent more than 24 minutes on this question. Last question seeking an oral reply.
Sale of Locally Cultured Fish Products
6. MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): In 2005, the Agriculture, Fisheries and Conservation Department (AFCD) introduced the "Accredited Fish Farm Scheme" to enhance the quality of local fish products and set up a product quality assurance system so as to increase the competitiveness of such products. Moreover, to promote the sustainable development of the local aquaculture industry, the AFCD has from time to time introduced new species of fish from abroad for culturing by fish farmers, for example, the organic Jade Perch brought in from Australia and promoted comprehensively in 2011. It has been reported that despite a growing interest of the public in fish products from accredited fish farms and aquatic products cultured by organic aquaculture, the retail outlets of these fish products are mainly located in large supermarkets. Regarding the channels and situation of the sale of locally cultured fish products, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it knows the number of retail outlets selling certified organic fish products in public markets in Hong Kong in each of the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4271
past three years; if such retail outlets are few in number, of the reasons for that, and whether it has planned to increase the number of such retail outlets to make such fish products more accessible to the public; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(b) whether it knows the respective annual production and sales volume of Jade Perch so far; whether it has assessed if the sale was satisfactory, and whether culturing Jade Perch in accredited fish farms was profitable; if it was not profitable, of the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, organic aquaculture generally refers to the organic cultivation of aquatic animals in natural or artificial water bodies. In 2009, the AFCD started to explore organic aquaculture and laid down a code of practice for organic aquaculture in collaboration with the Hong Kong Organic Resource Centre in the same year. The organic aquaculture standard comprises a strict code of practice on management which covers areas such as the aquaculture environment, sources of fish fry, choice of feed, stocking density, routine husbandry practices, fish health management and the process of transport and slaughtering. Organic aquaculture values the importance of ecological balance and animal welfare, avoids using synthetic chemical fish medicines and requires strictly the use of fish feed that have been independently certified to be organic.
To promote organic aquaculture, the AFCD assists fish farmers in acquiring accreditation for their organic aquatic products, carries out regular inspections of fish farms and water quality monitoring, and provides support in culture techniques. In addition, the AFCD has been working closely with the Fish Marketing Organization (FMO) in promoting the sale of organic aquatic products, including setting up promotion booths in supermarkets and showcasing organic aquatic products in the FarmFest.
My reply to the various parts of question is as follows:
(a) Two retail outlets are selling certified organic fish products in public markets in Hong Kong. They are located at Tai Kiu Market and Tung Yick Market in Yuen Long, and started business in March 2011 and September 2012 respectively. Both retail outlets are directly run by organic fish farmers. In total, there are 27 organic 4272 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
product sales outlets for local organic fish in Hong Kong, of them, 17 obtain supply direct from an organic fish farm. The remaining 10 sales outlets obtain supply from the FMO, which sources the products from organic fish farms.
Organic certification bodies have laid down the requirements for handling organic products. Under such requirements, organic fish must be slaughtered and processed in a certified organic product processing centre, and individually packed and labelled as certified organic products. Certified organic fish products must also be stored separately from non-organic products in the course of delivery and sale. Not only will these requirements protect the products from contamination, they also facilitate the identification of genuine organic products by consumers. Fishmongers must be equipped with the necessary supporting facilities and comply with the relevant requirements when selling organic fish.
The organic aquaculture market in Hong Kong is at an early stage of development. As the production of organic fish is limited in scale, it is difficult for ordinary fishmongers in markets to secure adequate supply for maintaining a retail outlet. Only fresh fish shops directly run by operators of organic fish farms could ensure steady and sufficient supply. These fish farms have set up their own organic aquatic product processing centre for providing supply to their own retail outlets direct.
In recent years, the FMO has been striving to increase the number of retail outlets for organic fish. Currently, organic fish products are processed in the accredited processing centre of the FMO and then distributed to supermarkets and organic product shops for sale. The FMO is also extending the distribution network for organic fish to retail outlets of organic products in various districts, and organic farmers' markets across the territory. With limited production, organic fish products are often out of stock in different retail outlets. If and when the supply of organic fish increases in the future, consideration may be given to extending the supplies to ordinary markets.
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(b) Local organic aquatic products have been put on the market since 2011. In 2011 and 2012, the production volume of organic fish was 8 tonnes and 18 tonnes respectively. It is estimated that the production would reach 20 tonnes in 2013. There is healthy demand from the public for organic Jade Perch, which are often sold out shortly after they are put on the market.
According to feedback received by the AFCD, it is the conservative estimate of fish farmers that the profit from organic fish farming exceeds that of conventional fish farming by 10%. The total water surface area for organic fish farming has increased from 20 163 sq m in 2011 to 51 819 sq m in 2013, representing an increase of 160%. Organic fish farming has its fair measure of attraction from the business perspective. However, the capital outlay and technical inputs that it takes to pursue organic fish farming are more intensive than that for traditional fish farming. Hence, many fish farmers are still adopting a cautious attitude towards the prospects of its future development. According to the AFCD, the operators of about 15 fish ponds are seeking to start or switch to organic farming, including fish farmers who newly join the business and existing organic fish farmers who wish to expand their operations.
MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, we are very pleased to know that the Government will assist in the promotion. However, the Secretary has not really answered my main question. President, when the Government introduced chilled beef into Hong Kong back then, it only allowed the product to be sold in supermarkets and the decision was a failure. Up till now, we cannot get chilled beef …
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, sorry, I cannot hear clearly.
MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Chilled beef. You can't hear me, can you?
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SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): Not very clearly.
MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Sorry. Is it better now?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): It is okay now.
MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Sorry. Just now, I was saying, when the Government introduced chilled beef into Hong Kong back then, it only allowed the product to be sold in supermarkets and the decision was a failure. I think that this time around, Jade Perch is a very successful product. However, I have received complaints from many stall operators in wet markets that they cannot secure the supply of the product for sale.
In the main reply to part (a), the Government pointed out that the FMO would source part of the supply of Jade Perch from organic fish farms for distribution to supermarkets only. Therefore, I would like to ask the Secretary this question: Do you think the Government should not give preferential treatment and reserve the supply of such a good product for big supermarkets only? In fact, big supermarkets already have the means to make profits, but stall operators in wet markets are small traders who operate a single stall each. These people should not be exploited. How come such a good product is not sold to them so that they can offer it for sale and thereby increase their competitiveness?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, I agree with Mr CHEUNG that as organic fish products are becoming more popular, the retail outlets can surely be extended from supermarkets to wet markets.
However, as I mentioned earlier in the main reply, with organic fish farming, apart from meeting stringent requirements in aquaculture environment, sources of fish fry, water quality for culturing and choice of feed, certain requirements in delivery and sale have to be met as well. Therefore, I believe there are reasons for the product to be promoted in supermarkets first. However, as the production volume and market acceptability of the product increases, we LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4275 should extend the retail outlets of organic fish products to wet markets. I believe that will be the target of the AFCD in the next stage.
MR STEVEN HO (in Cantonese): I thank Mr Tommy CHEUNG for raising the main question and for his appreciation of Jade Perch produced by the agriculture and fisheries industry. Jade Perch is a cultured pond fish farmed mainly in areas of Northern Yuen Long near Mai Po. Apart from Jade Perch, grey mullets and crispy grass carps are also cultured there.
The abovementioned areas have encountered a very big problem during their development ― the dilemma between conservation of migratory birds and the interests of the trade. The trade feels helpless as there is nothing they can do with the situation that migratory birds such as egrets have kept eating the fish cultured by fish farmers. Fish farmers found out that many preventive measures were either forbidden by laws or ineffective. Their livelihood has been severely affected as a result.
I would like to ask the Government whether it has any long-term policy to protect the livelihood of fish farmers. If there is a long-term policy, good products can be offered to the public, as Mr CHEUNG said.
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, I have to declare interests first. As a bird-watcher, I really hope that the interests of both sides can be taken care of. On the one hand, I hope that the interests of fish farmers ― and certainly not only organic fish farmers ― will be protected, and that all fish farmers will not suffer economic loss. On the other hand, in order to prevent cultured fish from being eaten by birds or migratory birds, sometimes preventive measures which will indeed affect migratory birds have to be taken.
However, according to the information provided by Dr LEUNG, Deputy Director of the AFCD, not all bird-proof nets are forbidden. A kind of bird-proof net which will not trap migratory birds is available for use. If fish farmers encounter technical problems or do not know what kind of nets to use, they can seek technical assistance from the AFCD which will be pleased to offer help.
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Furthermore, there are other ways to keep birds away without installing nets, for example, using reflective items or making sounds to frighten the birds. These are methods which can be considered too.
MR FRANKIE YICK (in Cantonese): President, just now the Secretary said that he supported organic fish trade and I am very pleased to hear that. However, in part (a) of the main reply, it was mentioned that in order to facilitate the identification of genuine organic products by consumers, the authorities require fishmongers to be equipped with supporting facilities and comply with the relevant requirements when selling organic fish. I would like to ask, given that stall operators in wet markets are small traders, will the Secretary introduce measures such as low-interest or interest-free loan schemes to assist them with the initial investment, so that they can operate their business and members of the public can buy organic fish more easily?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, the issue involves two aspects. When the retail outlets of organic fish are extended to wet markets in the future, some stall operators may have difficulties in investment or problems of insufficient space, as the Honourable Member said. I will not go into the details in this respect, but will only talk about two general issues. Regarding technical issues, the AFCD and the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department will be pleased to offer technical assistance or guidance where necessary. Regarding investment, we may consider using funds as the mode of subsidy, but I cannot be sure whether it will be feasible at this juncture. The Chief Executive has already proposed to set up the Sustainable Fisheries Development Fund in his Policy Address and industry funds are currently available too. Will these two types of funds be able to cover the uses mentioned by Members just now? I cannot give a definite answer now. However, we will surely examine if these two types of funds can be used or whether loan assistance can be provided by other means where necessary.
MR MICHAEL TIEN (in Cantonese): President, the New People's Party met the Chief Executive this morning and expressed our views on the Policy Address. Developing the primary industry is one of our proposals and the Chief Executive asked for details with much interest. However, it seems that the Secretary has LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4277 only mentioned this aspect very briefly. We propose to introduce new and advanced technology into Hong Kong to assist organic fish farming. This initiative is worth promoting. In fact, quality day-old chicks can also be introduced into the poultry trade in Hong Kong later and such a measure will reduce the number of chickens to be imported from China. In general, there is a great demand for quality agricultural products, particularly organic fish and poultry, in the local market. The fact that such products are produced in Hong Kong is also a guarantee of quality. As there is a huge demand in the Mainland market which believes in Hong Kong brands, we actually have two markets.
In response to the Secretary's reply to Mr Frankie YICK's supplementary question earlier, people from the trade told me during our discussion that the main problem is the availability of land. Furthermore, supply of water and electricity is needed for cultivation …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please raise your supplementary question and do not make lengthy remarks.
MR MICHAEL TIEN (in Cantonese): The Secretary mentioned the use of funds earlier which can mainly assist farmers with investment in farming, but will the Government also consider assisting them with the provision of land and supporting facilities such as water, electricity and even technology?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, I will give a simple and direct answer to the question raised by the Honourable Member. We will strive to take all factors into consideration. However, land is a rather difficult problem. With regard to identifying land, one approach which can be adopted for fish farming is to develop the existing or deserted fish ponds. Certainly, this may not be one of the necessary conditions for organic fish farming. However, for the aquaculture industry in general, we have recently reported to the relevant Panel of the Legislative Council and pointed out that after reviewing the current situation of the mariculture industry, we have decided to grant mariculture licenses to certain selected places. On the whole, we are very concerned about the development of the fisheries industry and will try our best to provide assistance within our ability and capacity.
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MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, organic products have all along been popular with the public. In recent years particularly, upon the promotion of the AFCD, the new product of Jade Perch has been well-received by the public. However, promotion and publicity is still lacking and therefore, at the district level, we often do not know where to buy the organic products promoted by the Government. Therefore, may I ask the Secretary whether organic food fairs will be held in 18 districts, so as to promote the development of these products?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, I thank Mr LEUNG Che-cheung for the supplementary question. In general, I am very supportive of promotional efforts. As I said in my main reply, the AFCD will very often launch local and international expos to promote local organic agricultural products, including organic aquaculture products. Promotion booths have been set up in supermarkets in some districts to showcase the products.
In the course of promotion, we have noticed that the degree of acceptance and the demand of the public for the products have gradually increased. But this raises another problem. The volume of production may not be able to meet the demand. Therefore, I think we have to strike a balance between promotion and the volume of production. If the volume of production is not catching up fast enough, we may have to adjust the pace of promotion to dovetail with it. Regarding the suggestion to establish organic food fairs in 18 districts proposed by the Honourable Member, I think it is commendable in principle, but the needs of each district may differ. When there is a sufficient volume of production of organic products and when promotion can be launched, we will certainly consider the proposal.
IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, this oral question uses Jade Perch as an example to discuss the subject, but there is another very successful product reported by the media as well. It is the giant groupers. Therefore, it will be promising to redirect the agriculture, fisheries and poultry industries in the high value-added direction. May I ask the Government whether it has conducted any relevant industrial research to formulate policies which will LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4279 support the industries? Here I am referring to comprehensive research and I consider comprehensive policies are what we need.
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, in response to Ir Dr LO's supplementary question, I can give a direct answer. The reason is that we will soon seek funding approval of $500 million from the Legislative Council to establish the Sustainable Fisheries Development Fund and an item under the proposal is to support the research on the development of related industries.
MR PAUL TSE (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary pointed out in part (a) of the main reply that among the 27 existing sales outlets for organic products, 17 obtain direct supply which will have no problem, and the FMO is responsible for sourcing products and distributing them to the remaining 10 sales outlets. Secretary, may I know the criteria adopted for selecting the sales outlets? Has preferential treatment been given?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, preferential treatment has not been given. The sales outlets are open to all organic farms.
MR PAUL TSE (in Cantonese): What are the criteria?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, are there any criteria?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): Regarding the criteria, let me provide supplementary information in reply to Mr TSE's question after the meeting. (Appendix II)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Oral questions end here.
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WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Electricity Demand and Power Grid
7. MS CYD HO (in Chinese): President, it is learnt that the authorities make annual assessments on the trend of local electricity demand in the next decade, including the forecasts on electricity sales and maximum demand. There is a view that since the two power companies have submitted their respective Five-Year Development Plans to the authorities earlier, it is an opportune time for the authorities to assess the future demand for electricity and related infrastructures. In connection with the electricity demand and the power grid, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it knows the overall situation of the use of electricity in Hong Kong at present, the monthly variations in the power system load in 2012, and the variations in the power system load throughout the day with the highest electricity load in the summer of that year;
(b) of the anticipated total electricity sales in Hong Kong each year between 2014 and 2020;
(c) of the highest (peak value) and lowest (valley value) electricity demand forecasts in Hong Kong each year between 2014 and 2020, with a breakdown by power company in the following table;
China Light and Power The Hong Kong Electric Company Limited Company Limited Lowest Highest Lowest Highest Year electricity electricity electricity electricity demand demand demand demand forecast forecast forecast forecast (valley value) (peak value) (valley value) (peak value) 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020
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(d) whether it knows the retirement schedules of the coal-fired generating units of the two power companies, and the accounting arrangements for the net value of the related fixed assets;
(e) whether it knows (i) the ownership and (ii) the party responsible for the day-to-day operation and maintenance, of the power grid for transmitting electricity from the Guangdong Daya Bay Nuclear Power Station to Hong Kong; and
(f) whether it knows the actual situation of the electricity transmission from Guangzhou Pumped Water Storage Power Station to Hong Kong, and the quantity of electricity and number of hours of electricity supply provided to Hong Kong by that power station in 2012?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT (in Chinese): President,
(a) In 2012, the total electricity sales in Hong Kong is about 43 000 GWh. The chart below shows the monthly demand profile and the load curve of the local peak days in 2012 for The Hongkong Electric Company Limited (HKE) and CLP Power Hong Kong Limited (CLP Power):
2012 Local Maximum Demand (MW) Month HKE CLP 1 1 647 4 433 2 1 740 4 617 3 1 836 4 835 4 2 157 5 641 5 2 324 6 214 6 2 383 6 472 7 2 432 6 598 8 2 494 6 769 9 2 396 6 441 10 2 045 5 476 11 1 933 5 116 12 1 706 4 635
4282 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
2012 Local Peak Day Load Curve (MW) Hour HKE CLP 01:00 1 404 5 270 02:00 1 289 4 774 03:00 1 231 4 419 04:00 1 201 4 220 05:00 1 182 4 106 06:00 1 223 4 157 07:00 1 454 4 498 08:00 1 834 5 061 09:00 2 159 5 701 10:00 2 303 6 188 11:00 2 375 6 422 12:00 2 419 6 558 13:00 2 448 6 549 14:00 2 494 6 507 15:00 2 461 6 459 16:00 2 405 6 460 17:00 2 396 6 459 18:00 2 347 6 451 19:00 2 275 6 608 20:00 2 167 6 769 21:00 2 027 6 746 22:00 1 919 6 655 23:00 1 785 6 513 24:00 1 617 6 055
(b) and (c)
The two power companies considered that parts (b) and (c) of the question would involve their projections of future sales growth and electricity demand growth. The disclosure of the related information would indicate to suppliers the two power companies' underlying demands which could increase their bargaining power in prices setting leading to higher prices to be borne by the Hong Kong citizens. Hence, the related information cannot be disclosed publicly.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4283
(d) For HKE, Lamma units L1 and L3 will be retired in 2017 and 2018 respectively upon reaching their retirement ages. According to general accounting principles, the depreciation is amortized over the useful lives of the assets. Thus, the written down value of these retired coal-fired units will be zero upon retirement. For CLP, there is no plan to decommission coal-fired plants in the 2014-2018 Development Plan.
(e) Electricity is delivered from Daya Bay Nuclear Power Station to CLP Power through two sets of high-voltage transmission line. The transmission line connecting Daya Bay Nuclear Power Station and CLP Power's Tai Po substation is owned by CLP Power. CLP Power also owns a portion of another transmission line connecting Daya Bay Nuclear Power Station and CLP Power's Yuen Long substation via a substation in Shenzhen.
CLP Power is responsible for the operation and maintenance of transmission lines it owns.
(f) Guangzhou Pumped Storage Power Station (GPPS) stores energy generated by other power stations by pumping water from a lower to an upper reservoir. The stored energy can then be recovered by running the hydro units in reverse as generators, with their output available to the grid system at times of peak demand or as backup if other units shut down unexpectedly. The pumped storage function also enables nuclear plant to remain at full base load operation despite fluctuations in system demand from day to night.
The utilization of pumped storage power station would depend on the system operational requirement, and is generally lower than those of base load plants. Also, in view of the reservoir storage space, typically pumped storage power station only operates for a few hours in a day. In 2012, the number of operating hours was about 2 300, and the sent out from GPPS to CLP Power was about 2% of CLP Power's total sent out.
4284 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Ranks and Payroll Costs of Secretaries to Advisory and Statutory Bodies
8. MR IP KIN-YUEN (in Chinese): President, according to the website of the Home Affairs Bureau, the Government has currently established 460 advisory and statutory bodies (ASBs) to advise the Government on different policy areas or perform statutory functions. In this connection, will the Government:
(a) set out by the name of such ASBs the (i) ranks and (ii) notional annual mid-point salaries (NAMS) of the civil servants serving as secretaries to such bodies; and
(b) inform this Council whether it has regularly reviewed the ranks of the civil servants to be assigned to serve as secretaries to various ASBs and the relevant payroll costs, as well as submitted reports to the Legislative Council and made public the relevant details; if it has not, of the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Chinese): President, my reply to the question of Mr IP Kin-yuen is as follows:
(a) The ranks and NAMS of the civil servants serving as secretaries to the government ASBs as at 30 November 2013 are set out at Annex.
(b) Government bureaux and departments will as appropriate review various aspects of the operation of the ASBs under their purview, including the rank of the secretaries, to ensure that the ASBs are given the necessary and sufficient support. In assessing the appropriateness of the rank of the secretaries of ASBs, government bureaux and departments will consider various relevant factors, such as the functions and specific nature of operation of the ASBs concerned, as well as the range and complexity of duties being performed by their secretaries.
When the secretary of an ASB is a civil service post, it is part of the establishment of the bureau or department concerned, and his or her salary is provided for under the financial provision under the operational expenses of the estimates of the bureau or department. Information of the establishment and the operational expenses of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4285
bureaux and departments are set out in the annual Draft Estimates of Expenditure, which are scrutinized and approved by the Finance Committee of the Legislative Council.
Most ASBs have Internet homepages to make information about their functions and composition available to the public. Where applicable, bureaux or departments will publicize information about the post and contact information of the secretaries or secretariats through the homepages of the ASBs under their purview.
Annex
Ranks and NAMS Value of the Civil Servants serving as Secretaries of Government ASBs
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Accreditation Advisory Executive Officer I 621,900 Board Action Committee Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Against Narcotics Administrative Appeals Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Board Advisory Committee for Building Surveyor 808,440 the Fire Safety (Buildings) Ordinance and the Fire Safety (Commercial Premises) Ordinance Advisory Committee of Senior Social Work 960,000 the Kwan Fong Officer Charitable Foundation―Kwan Fong Trust Fund for the Needy Advisory Committee of Chief Social Work 1,153,800 the Partnership Fund for Officer the Disadvantaged 4286 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Advisory Committee on Chief Immigration 963,240 Admission of Quality Officer Migrants and Professionals Advisory Committee on Executive Officer I 621,900 Agriculture and Fisheries Advisory Committee on Senior Administrative 1,153,800 Arts Development Officer Advisory Committee on Building Surveyor 808,440 Barrier Free Access Advisory Committee on Systems Manager 845,880 Code of Practice for Recognized Certification Authorities Advisory Committee on N/A - Corruption of the ICAC Advisory Committee on Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Cruise Industry Staff Grade C Advisory Committee on Senior Social Work 960,000 Enhancing Employment Officer of People with Disabilities Advisory Committee on Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Enhancing Self-Reliance Staff Grade C Through District Partnership Programme Advisory Committee on Senior Administrative 1,153,800 Post-office Employment Officer for Former Chief Executives and Politically Appointed Officials Advisory Committee on Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Post-service Employment of Civil Servants Advisory Committee on N/A - Publicity and Public Education in Innovation and Technology LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4287
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Advisory Committee on Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Revitalisation of Historic Buildings Advisory Committee on Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Social Work Training and Manpower Planning Advisory Committee on Senior Landscape 1,153,800 the Appearance of Architect Bridges and Associated Structures Advisory Committee on Executive Officer I 621,900 the Education Development Fund Advisory Committee on Senior Administrative 1,153,800 the Regulation of the Officer Property Management Industry Advisory Committee on Principal Executive 1,465,200 Travel Agents Officer Advisory Committee on Senior Engineer 1,153,800 Water Resources and Quality of Water Supplies Advisory Committee Executive Officer I 621,900 under Fire Safety (Buildings) Ordinance Advisory Council on Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Food and Environmental Staff Grade C Hygiene Advisory Council on the Administrative Officer 2,019,000 Environment Staff Grade B Advisory Group on Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Eliminating Discrimination against Sexual Minorities Advisory Management Senior Education Officer 1,153,800 Committee of the Hong (Administration) Kong Teachers' Centre 4288 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Advisory Panel on Executive Officer I 621,900 Vetting of Amusement Games/Machines Agricultural Products Executive Officer I 621,900 Scholarship Fund Advisory Committee Air Pollution Control Executive Officer I 621,900 Appeal Board Panel Air Transport Licensing Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Authority Staff Grade C Airport Authority N/A - Animal Welfare Advisory Veterinary Officer 845,880 Group Anti-Money Laundering Senior Executive Officer 845,880 and Counter-Terrorist Financing (Financial Institutions) Review Tribunal Antiquities Advisory Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Board Appeal Board Senior Executive Officer 845,880 (Amusement Game Centres) Appeal Board (Bedspace Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Apartments) Appeal Board (Betting Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Duty Ordinance) Staff Grade C Appeal Board (Clubs Senior Executive Officer 845,880 (Safety of Premises)) Appeal Board (Hotel and Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Guesthouse Accommodation) Appeal Board on Closure Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Orders (Immediate Health Staff Grade C Hazard) Appeal Board on Public Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Meetings and Processions LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4289
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Appeal Board Panel Senior Executive Officer 845,880 (Amusement Rides (Safety)) Appeal Board Panel Senior Electrical and 1,153,800 (Builders' Lifts and Mechanical Engineer Tower Working Platforms (Safety)) Appeal Board Panel Senior Executive Officer 845,880 (Consumer Goods Safety) Appeal Board Panel Senior Electrical and 1,153,800 (Electricity) Mechanical Engineer Appeal Board Panel Senior Administrative 1,153,800 (Entertainment Special Officer Effects) Appeal Board Panel Administrative Officer 772,920 (Exemption of Regulated Products) Appeal Board Panel (Gas Senior Electrical and 1,153,800 Safety) Mechanical Engineer Appeal Board Panel (Lifts Senior Electrical and 1,153,800 and Escalators (Safety) Mechanical Engineer Ordinance) Appeal Board Panel Senior Executive Officer 845,880 (Town Planning) Appeal Board Panel Senior Executive Officer 845,880 (Toys and Children's Products Safety) Appeal Board Panel Senior Engineer 1,153,800 (under Construction Workers Registration Ordinance) Appeal Board Panel Senior Electrical and 1,153,800 under Lifts and Escalators Mechanical Engineer Ordinance Appeal Board Panel Senior Electrical and 1,153,800 under the Energy Mechanical Engineer, Efficiency (Labelling of Senior Building Services Products) Ordinance Engineer or Senior Electronics Engineer (on need basis) 4290 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Appeal Board Panel Veterinary Officer 845,880 under Rabies Ordinance (Cap. 421) Appeal Board Panel Senior Executive Officer 845,880 under the Urban Renewal Authority Ordinance Appeal Board under the Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Accreditation of Academic and Vocational Qualifications Ordinance Appeal Boards Panel Senior Executive Officer 845,880 (Education) Appeal Panel (Estate Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Agents Ordinance) Appeal Panel (Housing) N/A - Appeal Panel on N/A - Government's Voluntary Contributions under the Civil Service Provident Fund Scheme Appeal Tribunal Panel Senior Executive Officer 845,880 and 621,900 (Buildings) and Executive Officer I respectively Architects Registration N/A - Board Art Museum Advisory Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Panel Asbestos Administration Senior Environmental 1,153,800 Committee Protection Officer Authorized Persons N/A - Registration Committee Panel Authorized Persons, Building 808,440/845,880 Registered Structural Surveyor/Structural Engineers and Registered Engineer Geotechnical Engineers Committee LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4291
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Authorized Persons', Building Surveyor 808,440 Registered Structural Engineers' and Registered Geotechnical Engineers' Disciplinary Board Panel Aviation Development Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Advisory Committee Staff Grade C Aviation Security Administrative Officer 772,920 Committee Award Council of the N/A - Hong Kong Award for Young People Banking Advisory N/A - Committee Banking Review Tribunal Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Basic Law Promotion Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Steering Committee Staff Grade C Betting and Lotteries Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Commission Staff Grade C Board of Control-Grant Education Officer 845,880 Schools Provident Fund (Administration) Board of Education Officer 845,880 Control-Subsidized (Administration) Schools Provident Fund Board of Directors of the Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Applied Research Staff Grade C Council Board of Directors of the N/A - Hong Kong Science and Technology Parks Corporation Board of Directors of the Senior Accounting 845,880 Surviving Spouses' and Officer Children's Pensions Scheme Board of Directors of Senior Accounting 845,880 Widows and Orphans Officer Pension Scheme 4292 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Board of Governors of N/A - the Hong Kong Arts Centre Board of Governors of N/A - the Prince Philip Dental Hospital Board of Inland Revenue Deputy Commissioner of 2,019,000 Inland Revenue Board of Management of N/A - the Chinese Permanent Cemeteries Board of Ocean Park N/A - Corporation Board of Review (Film Administrative Officer 772,920 Censorship) Board of Review (Inland Executive Officer I 621,900 Revenue Ordinance) Board of Scientific Principal Medical and 1,465,200 Advisers Health Officer Board of Trustees of The Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Hong Kong Jockey Club Music and Dance Fund Board of Trustees of the Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Lord Wilson Heritage Trust Board of Trustees of the N/A - Sir Edward Youde Memorial Fund Brewin Trust Fund N/A - Committee Building Contractors Senior Engineer 1,153,800 Committee Buildings Energy Senior Electrical and 1,153,800 Efficiency Appeal Board Mechanical Engineer, Panel Senior Building Services Engineer or Senior Electronics Engineer (on need basis) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4293
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Business Facilitation Assistant Director of 1,739,400 Advisory Committee Management Services Cantonese Opera N/A - Advisory Committee Cantonese Opera N/A - Development Fund Advisory Committee Central Committee on Social Work Officer 772,920 Information Technology for Rehabilitation Services Certification Assistant Trade Officer I 621,900 Co-ordination Committee Certifying Body of Hong N/A - Kong-Canada Film and TV Co-production Child Fatality Review Social Work Officer 772,920 Panel Chinese Language Systems Manager 845,880 Interface Advisory Committee Chinese Medicine Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Council of Hong Kong Chinese Medicine Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Development Committee Chinese Temples N/A - Committee Chiropractors Council Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Citizens Advisory N/A - Committee on Community Relations of the ICAC Civil Celebrant of Executive Officer II 411,780 Marriages Appointment Appeal Board Clearing and Settlement Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Systems Appeals Tribunal 4294 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Clothing Industry N/A - Training Authority Commission on Poverty Administrative Officer 2,019,000 Staff Grade B Commission on Strategic Administrative Officer 2,019,000 Development Staff Grade B Commission on Youth Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Staff Grade C Committee on Child Senior Social Work 960,000 Abuse Officer Committee on Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Community Support for Rehabilitated Offenders Committee on Financial Administrative Officer 2,228,400 Assistance for Family Staff Grade B1 Members of Those Who Sacrifice Their Lives To Save Others Committee on Education Officer 845,880 Home-School (Administration) Co-operation Committee on Assistant Director of 1,739,400 Professional Education Development of Teachers and Principals Committee on Research N/A - and Development of Chinese Medicines Committee on Senior Administrative 1,153,800 Self-financing Officer Post-secondary Education Committee on Services Senior Social Work 960,000 for Youth at Risk Officer Committee on Slot Senior Administrative 1,153,800 Complaints Officer Committee on the Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Promotion of Civic Staff Grade C Education LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4295
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Committee on the N/A - Promotion of Racial Harmony Committee on Trust Fund Social Work Officer 772,920 for Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Communications Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Authority Staff Grade C Community Investment N/A - and Inclusion Fund Committee Competition Commission N/A - Construction Industry N/A - Council Consultative Committee Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 on Economic and Trade Co-operation between Hong Kong and the Mainland Consultative Committee, Executive Officer I 621,900 Ship Personnel Management Consulting Engineers' Senior Engineer 1,153,800 Committee Consumer Council N/A - Contractors Registration N/A - Committee Panel Copyright Tribunal Executive Officer I 621,900 Correctional Services Executive Officer I 621,900 Children's Education Trust Committee Correctional Services Executive Officer I 621,900 Children's Education Trust Investment Advisory Board Corruption Prevention N/A - Advisory Committee of the ICAC 4296 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Council for Sustainable Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Development Staff Grade C Council for the AIDS Principal Medical and 1,465,200 Trust Fund Health Officer Council of City N/A - University of Hong Kong Council of Lingnan N/A - University Council of The Chinese N/A - University of Hong Kong Council of the Hong N/A - Kong Academy for Performing Arts Council of the Hong N/A - Kong Academy of Medicine Council of the Hong N/A - Kong Baptist University Council of the Hong N/A - Kong Institute of Certified Public Accountants Council of the Hong N/A - Kong Institute of Education Council of the Hong N/A - Kong Polytechnic University Council of The Hong N/A - Kong University of Science and Technology Council of the Lord Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Wilson Heritage Trust Council of the Open N/A - University of Hong Kong Council of the Queen Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Elizabeth Foundation for the Mentally Handicapped LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4297
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Council of the University N/A - of Hong Kong Council on Human Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Reproductive Technology Council on Professional Education Officer 845,880 Conduct in Education (Administration) Country and Marine Executive Officer I 621,900 Parks Board CreateSmart Initiative N/A - Vetting Committee Criminal and Law Senior Social Work 960,000 Enforcement Injuries Officer Compensation Boards Curriculum Development Principal Inspector 1,153,800 Council Customs and Excise Executive Officer I 621,900 Service Children's Education Trust Fund Committee Customs and Excise Executive Officer I 621,900 Service Children's Education Trust Fund Investment Advisory Board Dangerous Goods Executive Officer I 621,900 Standing Committee Dental Council of Hong Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Kong Deposit Protection Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Appeals Tribunal Deposit-taking N/A - Companies Advisory Committee Design-Business N/A - Collaboration Scheme Assessment Panel Digital 21 Strategy Administrative Officer 772,920 Advisory Committee 4298 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Disaster Relief Fund Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Advisory Committee Disciplinary Board Panel N/A - (Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Safety Management) Regulation) Disciplinary Board Panel Senior Land Surveyor 1,153,800 (Land Survey) Disciplinary Board Panel Senior Electrical and 1,153,800 under the Lifts and Mechanical Engineer Escalators Ordinance Disciplinary Committee N/A - Panel (under Social Workers Registration Ordinance) Disciplinary Tribunal Senior Electrical and 1,153,800 Panel (Builders' Lifts and Mechanical Engineer Tower Working Platforms (Safety)) Disciplinary Tribunal Senior Electrical and 1,153,800 Panel (Electricity) Mechanical Engineer District Council, Central Senior Executive Officer 845,880 & Western District Council, Eastern Senior Executive Officer 845,880 District Council, Islands Senior Executive Officer 845,880 District Council, Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Kowloon City District Council, Kwai Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Tsing District Council, Kwun Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Tong District Council, North Senior Executive Officer 845,880 District Council, Sai Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Kung District Council, Sha Tin Senior Executive Officer 845,880 District Council, Sham Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Shui Po LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4299
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* District Council, Southern Senior Executive Officer 845,880 District Council, Tai Po Senior Executive Officer 845,880 District Council, Tsuen Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Wan District Council, Tuen Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Mun District Council, Wan Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Chai District Council, Wong Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Tai Sin District Council, Yau Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Tsim Mong District Council, Yuen Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Long Dogs and Cats Veterinary Officer 845,880 Classification Board Drainage Appeal Board Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Panel Dumping at Sea Appeal Executive Officer I 621,900 Board Panel Education Commission Assistant Director of 1,739,400 Education Education Scholarships Executive Officer I 621,900 Fund Committee Elderly Commission Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Staff Grade C Electoral Affairs Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Commission Electrical Safety Senior Electrical and 1,153,800 Advisory Committee Mechanical Engineer Emergency Relief Fund Senior Social Work 960,000 Committee Officer Employees Compensation N/A - Assistance Fund Board Employees' N/A - Compensation Insurance Levies Management Board 4300 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Employees Retraining N/A - Board Endangered Species Executive Officer I 621,900 Advisory Committee Energy Advisory Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Committee Staff Grade C Engineers Registration N/A - Board Environment and Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Conservation Fund Committee Environment and Senior Treasury 1,153,800 Conservation Fund Accountant Investment Committee Environmental Campaign Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Committee Environmental Impact Executive Officer I 621,900 Assessment Appeal Board Panel Equal Opportunities N/A - Commission Estate Agents Authority N/A - Exchange Fund Advisory N/A - Committee Expanded Building Building Surveyor 808,440 Committee Expert Committee on Senior Administrative 1,153,800 Food Safety Officer Family Council Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Staff Grade C Federation of Hong Kong N/A - Industries General Committee Fight Crime Committee Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Staff Grade C Film Development Secretary-General of the 1,739,400 Council Film Development Council LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4301
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Financial Reporting N/A - Council Financial Reporting N/A - Review Panel Financial Services Senior Economist 1,153,800 Development Council Fire Safety Committee Building Surveyor 808,440 Fire Safety Vetting Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Committee Fire Service (Installation Executive Officer I 621,900 Contractors) Disciplinary Board Fish Marketing Advisory Fisheries Officer 772,920 Board Fisheries Development Senior Fisheries 621,900 Loan Fund Advisory Supervisor Committee Gas Safety Advisory Senior Electrical and 1,153,800 Committee Mechanical Engineer Genetically Modified N/A - Organisms (Control of Release) Expert Group Geotechnical Engineers N/A - Registration Committee Panel Governing Committee of Senior Administrative 1,153,800 the Beat Drugs Fund Officer Association Grantham Scholarships N/A - Fund Committee Guardianship Board N/A - Harbourfront Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Commission Staff Grade C Health and Medical Principal Executive 1,465,200 Development Advisory Officer Committee Health Care and N/A - Promotion Fund Committee 4302 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* High Speed Craft Executive Officer I 621,900 Consultative Committee History Museum Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Advisory Panel HKSAR Passports Executive Officer II 411,780 Appeal Board Home Purchase Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Allowance Appeals Committee Panel (HPA Appeals Committee Panel) Hong Kong Advisory Consultant 1,739,400 Council on AIDS Hong Kong Arts N/A - Development Council Hong Kong Committee Administrative Officer 1,739,400 for Pacific Economic Staff Grade C Cooperation Hong Kong Council for N/A - Accreditation of Academic and Vocational Qualifications Hong Kong Council for Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Testing and Certification Staff Grade C Hong Kong Council on N/A - Smoking and Health Hong Kong Deposit N/A - Protection Board Hong Kong Examinations N/A - and Assessment Authority Hong Kong Export Credit N/A - Insurance Corporation Advisory Board Hong Kong Housing Administrative Officer 2,019,000 Authority Staff Grade B Hong Kong Logistics Administrative Officer 2,019,000 Development Council Staff Grade B LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4303
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Hong Kong Maritime Administrative Officer 2,019,000 Industry Council Staff Grade B Hong Kong Paralympians Social Work Officer 772,920 Fund Management Committee Hong Kong Port Administrative Officer 2,019,000 Development Council Staff Grade B Hong Kong Productivity N/A - Council Hong Kong Rotary Club Executive Officer I 621,900 Students' Loan Fund & Sing Tao Charitable Foundation Students' Loan Fund Joint Selection Committee Hong Kong Tourism N/A - Board Hong Kong Trade N/A - Development Council Hong Kong War N/A - Memorial Pensions Advisory Committee Hong Kong War Administrative Officer 772,920 Memorial Pensions Appeal Board Honours Committee Senior Principal 1,739,400 Executive Officer Hospital Authority N/A - Housing Managers N/A - Registration Board Human Organ Transplant Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Board ICAC Complaints Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Committee Staff Grade C Immigration Tribunal Executive Officer II 411,780 Independent Commission Senior Executive Officer 845,880 on Remuneration for Members of the District Councils of the HKSAR 4304 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Independent Commission Administrative Officer 772,920 on Remuneration for Members of the Executive Council and the Legislature, and Officials under the Political Appointment System of the HKSAR Independent Police N/A - Complaints Council Innovation & Technology N/A - Support Programme Assessment Panel under the Innovation & Technology Fund Innovation and Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Technology Fund (SERAP Project Assessment Panel) Innovation and Principal Trade Officer 1,153,800 Technology Fund General Support Programme Vetting Committee Insider Dealing Tribunal Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Inspectors Registration N/A - Committee Panel Insurance Advisory Senior Insurance Officer 1,153,800 Committee Intangible Cultural Chief Curator 1,153,800 Heritage Advisory Committee Investment Advisory Senior Treasury 1,153,800 Committee of the Sir Accountant David Trench Fund for Recreation Investment Committee of Administrative Officer 1,739,400 the HKSAR Government Staff Grade C Scholarship Fund LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4305
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Joint Committee on Senior Social Work 960,000 Information Technology Officer for the Social Welfare Sector Joint Committee on Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Student Finance Judicial Officers Judiciary Administrator 2,778,600 Recommendation Commission Kadoorie Agricultural Agricultural Officer 772,920 Aid Loan Fund Committee Labour Advisory Board Senior Labour Officer 1,153,800 Land and Development Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Advisory Committee Staff Grade C Land Surveyors Senior Land Surveyor 1,153,800 Registration Committee Landscape Architects N/A - Registration Board Law Reform Commission Principal Government 2,019,000 of Hong Kong Counsel Legal Aid Services N/A - Council Leveraged Foreign N/A - Exchange Trading Arbitration Panel Li Po Chun Charitable N/A - Trust Fund Committee Licensing Appeals Board Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Staff Grade C Lift and Escalator Safety Senior Electrical and 1,153,800 Advisory Committee Mechanical Engineer Liquor Licensing Board Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Local Vessels Advisory Executive Officer I 621,900 Committee Long-term Prison Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Sentences Review Board 4306 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Lord Wilson United N/A - World Colleges Scholarship Fund Council Lotteries Fund Advisory Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Committee Lump Sum Grant Chief Social Work 1,153,800 Steering Committee Officer Management Committee N/A - of the Consumer Legal Action Fund Managing Board of the N/A - Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation Mandatory Provident N/A - Fund Industry Schemes Committee Mandatory Provident N/A - Fund Schemes Advisory Committee Mandatory Provident Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Fund Schemes Appeal Board Mandatory Provident N/A - Fund Schemes Authority Manpower Development Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Committee Staff Grade C Marine Fish Scholarship Executive Officer I 621,900 Fund Advisory Committee Market Misconduct Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Tribunal Marketing Advisory Executive Officer I 621,900 Board Medical Council of Hong Principal Executive 1,465,200 Kong Officer Mental Health Review Senior Judicial Clerk II 593,940 Tribunal LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4307
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Mercantile Marine Executive Officer I 621,900 Assistance Fund Committee Midwives Council of Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Hong Kong Minimum Wage Chief Labour Officer 1,465,200 Commission Minor Works Contractors N/A - Registration Committee Panel Municipal Services Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Appeals Board National Committee for Senior Medical and 1,153,800 the Certification of Wild Health Officer Poliovirus Eradication in Hong Kong National Verification Senior Medical and 1,153,800 Committee for Measles Health Officer Elimination in Hong Kong Noise Control Appeal Executive Officer I 621,900 Board Panel Non-local Higher and Senior Education Officer 1,153,800 Professional Education (Administration) Appeal Board Non-official Justices of Administrative Officer 2,019,000 the Peace Selection Staff Grade B Committee Nursing Council of Hong Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Kong Occupational Deafness N/A - Compensation Board Occupational Retirement Administrative Officer 772,920 Schemes Appeal Board Occupational Safety and N/A - Health Council Operations Review N/A - Committee of the ICAC 4308 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Panel of Film Censorship N/A - Advisers Panel of the Witness Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Protection Review Board Pensions Appeal Panel N/A - Pensions Assessment Accounting Officer I 621,900 Board (Volunteer and Naval Volunteer Pensions Ordinance) Personal Data (Privacy) N/A - Advisory Committee Personalized Vehicle Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Registration Marks Vetting Committee Pharmacy and Poisons Executive Officer I 621,900 Appeal Tribunal Pharmacy and Poisons Principal Executive 1,465,200 Board Officer Pilotage Advisory Executive Officer I 621,900 Committee Ping Wo Fund Advisory Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Committee Staff Grade C Planners Registration N/A - Board Pneumoconiosis N/A - Compensation Fund Board Po Leung Kuk Advisory Chief Liaison Officer 960,000 Board Police Children's Executive Officer I 621,900 Education Trust Investment Advisory Board Police Children's Executive Officer I 621,900 Education Trust Management Committee Police Education and Executive Officer I 621,900 Welfare Trust Investment Advisory Board LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4309
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Police Education and Executive Officer I 621,900 Welfare Trust Management Committee Port Area Security Marine Officer 808,440 Advisory Committee Port Operations Marine Officer 808,440 Committee Port Welfare Committee Principal Executive 1,465,200 Officer Post-Release Supervision Executive Officer I 621,900 Board Pressure Equipment Executive Officer II 411,780 Advisory Committee Prevention of Senior Engineer 1,153,800 Legionnaires' Disease Committee, Hong Kong Primary One Admission Senior Education Officer 1,153,800 Committee (Administration) Prisoners' Education Education Officer 772,920 Trust Fund Committee Prisoners' Education Education Officer 772,920 Trust Fund Investment Advisory Committee Process Review N/A - Committee Process Review Panel for Senior Administrative 1,153,800 the Financial Reporting Officer Council Process Review Panel for Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 the Securities and Futures Commission Process Review Panel in Senior Administrative 1,153,800 relation to the Regulation Officer of Mandatory Provident Fund Intermediaries Product Executive Officer I 621,900 Eco-responsibility Appeal Board Panel 4310 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Programme and Chief Manager, Cultural 1,153,800 Development Committee Services Programme Management N/A - Committee, Dedicated Fund on Branding, Upgrading and Domestic Sales―Enterprise Support Programme Protection of Wages on Senior Labour Officer 1,153,800 Insolvency Fund Board Public Libraries Advisory Executive Officer I 621,900 Committee Public Service Senior Principal 1,739,400 Commission Executive Officer Quality Assurance Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Council Staff Grade C Quality Education Fund Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Investment Committee Staff Grade C Quality Education Fund Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Steering Committee Staff Grade C Radiation Board Principal Executive 1,465,200 Officer Radio Spectrum and Senior 1,153,800 Technical Standards Telecommunications Advisory Committee Engineer Radio Television Hong Chief Programme Officer 1,153,800 Kong Board of Advisors Radiological Protection Executive Officer I 621,900 Advisory Group Railway Objections Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Hearing Panel Registered Contractors' Building Surveyor 808,440 Disciplinary Board Panel Registration of Persons Executive Officer II 411,780 Tribunal Rehabilitation Advisory Senior Administrative 1,153,800 Committee Officer LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4311
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Release under Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Supervision Board Research Council N/A - Research Grants Council Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Staff Grade C Review Body on Bid Principal Trade Officer 1,153,800 Challenges Review Committee on Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Trust Fund for Severe Staff Grade C Acute Respiratory Syndrome Review Panel under the Senior Engineer 1,153,800 Land (Miscellaneous Provisions) Ordinance Risk Communication Senior Medical and 1,153,800 Advisory Group Health Officer Risk Management N/A - Committee of Hong Kong Exchanges and Clearing Limited Road Safety Council Chief Inspector of Police 963,240 Safety Officer Advisory Labour Officer 845,880 Committee School Allocation Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Committee Science Museum Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Advisory Panel Seafarers' Advisory Executive Officer I 621,900 Board Secondary Four Senior Education Officer 1,153,800 Placement Committee (Administration) Secondary School Places Senior Education Officer 1,153,800 Allocation Committee (Administration) Securities and Futures Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Appeals Tribunal Securities and Futures N/A - Commission 4312 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Security and Guarding Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Services Industry Authority Self-financing Senior Administrative 1,153,800 Post-secondary Education Officer Fund Investment Committee Self-financing Senior Administrative 1,153,800 Post-secondary Education Officer Fund Steering Committee Shipping Consultative Executive Officer I 621,900 Committee Sir David Trench Fund Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Committee Sir Edward Youde Senior Principal 1,739,400 Memorial Fund Council Executive Officer Sir Jack Cater N/A - Scholarship Fund Selection Committee Sir Murray MacLehose N/A - Trust Fund Investment Advisory Committee Sir Robert Black Trust N/A - Fund Committee Small and Medium Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Enterprises Committee Staff Grade C Social Enterprise Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Advisory Committee Staff Grade C Social Security Appeal Social Work Officer 772,920 Board Social Welfare Advisory Senior Administrative 1,153,800 Committee Officer Social Work Training Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Fund Committee Social Workers N/A - Registration Board Sports Commission Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Staff Grade C LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4313
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Stamp Advisory Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Committee Standard Working Hours Chief Labour Officer 1,465,200 Committee Standing Advisory Senior Structural 1,153,800 Committee (Oil Storage Engineer Installations) Standing Commission on Administrative Officer 2,019,000 Civil Service Salaries and Staff Grade B Conditions of Service Standing Committee on Deputy Principal Solicitor 1,739,400 Company Law Reform Standing Committee on Administrative Officer 2,019,000 Directorate Salaries and Staff Grade B Conditions of Service Standing Committee on Administrative Officer 2,019,000 Disciplined Services Staff Grade B Salaries and Conditions of Service Standing Committee on Administrative Officer 2,019,000 Judicial Salaries and Staff Grade B Conditions of Service Standing Committee on Senior Administrative 1,153,800 Language Education and Officer Research Standing Committee on N/A - Legal Education and Training Statistics Advisory Board Senior Statistician 1,153,800 Steering Committee for Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Research Themes under Staff Grade C the Research Endowment Fund Steering Committee of Principal Environmental 1,465,200 Pilot Green Transport Protection Officer Fund Steering Committee of Administrative Officer 1,739,400 the HKSAR Government Staff Grade C Scholarship Fund 4314 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Steering Committee on Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Child Development Fund Staff Grade C Steering Committee on Senior Executive Officer 845,880 eHealth Record Sharing Steering Committee on Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Innovation and Staff Grade C Technology Steering Committee on Administrative Officer 2,019,000 Population Policy Staff Grade B Steering Committee on Principal Inspector 1,153,800 Strategic Development of Information Technology in Education Steering Committee on Assistant Director of 1,739,400 the Promotion of Electric Environmental Protection Vehicles Steering Committee on N/A - the Provision of Legal Advice for Litigants in Person Structural Engineers N/A - Registration Committee Panel Supplementary Medical Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Professions Council Surveyors Registration N/A - Board Tang Shiu Kin & Ho Tim N/A - Charitable Fund Management Committee Technical Committee on Senior Building 1,153,800 the Minor Works Control Surveyor/Senior System Structural Engineer Telecommunications Senior Executive Officer 845,880 (Competition Provisions) Appeal Board Telecommunications Assistant Director 1,739,400 Regulatory Affairs Advisory Committee LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4315
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Telecommunications N/A - Users and Consumers Advisory Committee Textiles Advisory Board Principal Trade Officer 1,153,800 The Board of the West N/A - Kowloon Cultural District Authority The Lump Sum Grant Chief Social Work 1,153,800 Independent Complaints Officer Handling Committee The Trustees of the N/A - Morrison Scholarships Fund Torture Claims Appeal Chief Executive Officer 1,153,800 Board Tourism Strategy Group Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Staff Grade C Town Planning Board Principal Government 2,019,000 Town Planner Trade and Industry Principal Trade Officer 1,153,800 Advisory Board Traffic Accident Victims Senior Social Work 960,000 Assistance Advisory Officer Committee Transport Advisory Senior Administrative 1,153,800 Committee Officer Transport Tribunals' Senior Transport Officer 845,880 Panel Travel Industry Principal Executive 1,465,200 Compensation Fund Officer Management Board Tung Wah Group of Chief Liaison Officer 960,000 Hospitals Advisory Board University Grants Secretary-General, UGC 2,228,400 Committee Unsolicited Electronic Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Messages (Enforcement Notices) Appeal Board 4316 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NAMS Value of the Civil Rank of the Civil Servants Servants serving as Names of ASBs serving as Secretaries of Secretaries of the ASBs the ASBs# ($)* Urban Renewal Authority N/A - Vehicle Maintenance Senior Electrical and 1,153,800 Technical Advisory Mechanical Engineer Committee Veterinary Surgeons Senior Executive Officer 845,880 Board Vetting Committee of the Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Professional Services Staff Grade C Development Assistance Scheme Vetting Committee of the Senior Administrative 1,153,800 SME Development Fund Officer and the Dedicated Fund on Branding, Upgrading and Domestic Sales (Organization Support Programme) Vocational Training N/A - Council Waste Disposal Appeal Executive Officer I 621,900 Board Panel Water Pollution Control Executive Officer I 621,900 Appeal Board Panel Women's Commission Senior Administrative 1,153,800 Officer Youth Square Administrative Officer 1,739,400 Management Advisory Staff Grade C Committee
Notes:
* The majority of the civil servant posts listed in this table perform other duties in addition to serving as the secretary of the ASB concerned.
# "N/A": refers to "non-applicable" cases where the ASB concerned either has no secretary post or its secretary post is a non-civil servant post.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4317
Enactment of Legislation to Prohibit Acts of Insulting Public Officers on Duty
9. MRS REGINA IP (in Chinese): President, quite a number of public officers have relayed to me that while on duty, they are often provoked by some members of the public using abusive language or obscene gestures. As there is no specific provision under the existing legislation criminalizing the act of insulting public officers on duty, they can only put up with such behaviour in silence, which has aroused negative emotions and resulted in very low morale among them. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the respective numbers of cases in the past five years in which the authorities invoked section 23 of the Summary Offences Ordinance (Cap. 228), section 63 of the Police Force Ordinance (Cap. 232) and section 36 of the Offences Against the Person Ordinance (Cap. 212) to institute prosecutions against persons who had resisted or obstructed a public officer or police officer in the execution of duty; and among such cases, the number of convictions; and among the conviction cases, the number of those involving defendants who insulted public officers or police officers with abusive language or behaviour;
(b) given that there is an offence of "insult" under the Penal Code of Macao, and the penalty will be heavier if a public officer in execution of duty is the subject of an insult (that is, "aggravated insult"), whether the authorities will make reference to such legal provisions and study the introduction of legislation to prohibit any act of insulting public officers on duty; if they will not, of the reasons for that;
(c) given that it is currently stipulated in section 139 of the Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinance (Cap. 132) that "[a]ny person who wilfully obstructs, resists, or uses abusive language to, any person acting in the execution of his duties under [this] Ordinance, or under any order or warrant made or issued thereunder, shall, in any case for which no other provision is made by [this] Ordinance, be guilty of an offence", whether the authorities will consider using this provision as a blueprint and enacting 4318 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
legislation to prohibit the use of abusive language to other public officers on duty; if they will not, of the reasons for that; and
(d) of the training, emotional counselling and support currently provided for front-line public officers in handling situations of being insulted while on duty?
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Chinese): President,
(a) The numbers of prosecutions and convictions under section 23 of the Summary Offences Ordinance (Cap. 228), section 63 of the Police Force Ordinance (Cap. 232) and section 36 of the Offences against the Person Ordinance (Cap. 212) from 2008 to 2012 are tabulated below:
section 23, Summary section 36, Offences against section 63, Police Force Offences Ordinance the Person Ordinance Ordinance (Cap. 232) (Cap. 228) (Cap. 212) Number of Number of Number of Number of Number of Number of prosecutions convictions* prosecutions convictions* prosecutions convictions* 2008 46 40 160 137 288 217 2009 40 32 131 119 246 205 2010 49 43 192 172 164 126 2011 76 65 302 279 35 33 2012 74 60 355 298 45 38
Note:
* The respective year of the above conviction figures represent the year in which the trial was concluded, which may be different from the year when prosecution was instituted.
We do not maintain statistics on the number of cases where public officers were verbally or behaviourally insulted by the accused.
(b) and (c)
Under the existing laws of Hong Kong, the mere act of verbally abusing or insulting another person or a public officer does not normally constitute an offence. However, if a person, in the course of verbally abusing or insulting another person or a public officer, goes further to commit certain crimes, such as using threatening, abusive or insulting words against a public officer with intent to provoke a breach of the peace, or whereby a breach of the peace is LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4319 likely to be caused, the authorities may consider invoking section 17B(2) (Disorder in public places) of the Public Order Ordinance (Cap. 245) to take action against him/her. In addition, if anyone threatens a public officer with any injury to the person, reputation or property of such public officer, with intent to alarm such officer; assaults a public officer; damages any public property; or resists or obstructs a public officer in the performance of his/her public duty, the relevant departments may, depend on the circumstances of the case, consider invoking the following legislation to take action against him/her:
(i) section 24 (Certain acts of intimidation prohibited) or section 60 (Destroying or damaging property), Crimes Ordinance (Cap. 200); or
(ii) section 36 (Assault with intent to commit offence, or on police officer, and so on), section 39 (Assault occasioning actual bodily harm) or section 40 (Common assault), Offences against the Person Ordinance (Cap. 212); or
(iii) section 63 (Penalty on person assaulting, and so on, police officer in execution of duty, or misleading officer by false information), Police Force Ordinance (Cap. 232); or
(iv) section 23 (Resisting or obstructing a public officer or other person lawfully engaged in a public duty), Summary Offences Ordinance (Cap. 228), and so on.
As a matter of course, in determining whether prosecution should be initiated, the authorities should consider the actual circumstances of each case, including the behaviour of the offender and the relevant legislative requirements. We consider that public officers are adequately protected under the existing laws and it is not necessary to enact separate legislation. While we have no plan at the moment to legislate separately against the act of insulting public officers, we will keep the situation in view.
4320 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
(d) Civil servants are to serve the community and are committed to carrying out their duties with professionalism and efficiency. They should not be subject to abusive and insulting language. We appeal to members of the public to appreciate and respect our colleagues as they discharge their duties impartially and lawfully. The Civil Service Bureau will continue to take measures to alleviate stress experienced by colleagues, including the provision of a safe workplace, training courses and hotline counselling service. These will help them handle conflicts, manage stress and maintain emotional well-being for coping with the challenges in their work. Currently, more than 3 000 colleagues attend relevant training courses organized by the Civil Service Training and Development Institute each year. As regards the stress management hotline provided by the Civil Service Bureau, the service includes telephone and face-to-face counselling, referral to appropriate bodies for follow-up, and the provision of relevant thematic seminars. Many departments are also providing suitable counselling services having regard to their operational situation. Furthermore, we will continue to promote the Civil Service commendation schemes, which give recognition to colleagues with outstanding and dedicated performance, with a view to bringing the message across to the public that civil servants are serving the community with professionalism and impartiality and should deserve respect.
Poverty Alleviation Measures
10. MR ALBERT HO (in Chinese): President, the Commission on Poverty has drawn the poverty line, which is set at 50% of the median household income (median income) before government policy intervention (that is, before tax and social benefits transfers). Moreover, according to the Hong Kong Poverty Situation Report 2012 released by the Government on 28 September this year, among the 430 000 poor households last year, over 150 000 were working-poor households. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it has compiled statistics on the respective current numbers of households whose income is (i) below 50% of the median income, (ii) between 51% and 60% of the median income, and (iii) between 61% and 70% of the median income; if so, of the numbers, and a breakdown of the numbers of these three groups of households by the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4321
number of able-bodied children, disabled children and those with special educational needs in the family; and
(b) whether it will announce specific measures for poverty alleviation and the implementation timetable shortly; if it will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Chinese): President, my reply to Mr Albert HO's question is as follows:
(a) With household income before policy intervention (that is, remove the impact of taxation and recurrent cash benefit transfer) as the basis for measurement, the poverty line is set at 50% of median household income by household size. If government intervention is disregarded, there were 541 000 households living under the poverty line in 2012. After taking into account taxation and government intervention of recurrent cash benefit transfers, there were 403 000 households living below the poverty line in 2012.
Adopting the above methodology, we have used household income before policy intervention as the basis of measurement in arriving at the thresholds of 60% and 70% of median household income by household size. The numbers of households in 2012 under each threshold were computed based on their income after taking into account taxation and government intervention of recurrent cash benefit transfers. These numbers, broken down by the number of members aged below 18 in household, are provided in Annex. Statistics with breakdown by the number of able-bodied children, children with disabilities and children with special educational needs in household are not available.
(b) We have received proposals from a number of groups and academics on how low-income working households not receiving Comprehensive Social Security Assistance should be further assisted. We will carefully consider these suggestions in formulating possible measures for poverty alleviation and will report progress in the Policy Address next year.
4322 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Annex
Number of domestic households by selected percentage of median monthly domestic household income and number of members aged below 18 living therein, 2012
Number of households living within different Percentage of median income ranges, taking into account taxation monthly domestic and government intervention of recurrent household income cash benefit transfers Total before government (computed based on the number of members intervention aged below 18 in household) 0 1 2 3 and over < 50% 265 300 77 800 50 300 9 600 403 000 50% - <60% 125 600 39 200 20 800 4 400 190 000 60% - <70% 106 600 42 200 21 600 3 300 173 700
Note:
Figures excluding foreign domestic helpers.
Source: General Household Survey, Census and Statistics Department.
Competition Policies on Free Television and Telecommunications Service Markets
11. MS CLAUDIA MO (in Chinese): President, the Government has earlier decided that a gradual and orderly approach should be adopted in introducing competition into the free television (TV) market and it thus refused to approve all three applications for domestic free TV programme service licences (TV licences). On the other hand, on the ground that there are intense competing demands in the telecommunications service market for the 2 x 59.2 MHz of paired spectrum in the 1.9 to 2.2 GHz band (3G Spectrum), the authorities have decided to reassign a portion of the 3G Spectrum by way of auction upon the expiry of the existing assignments in October 2016. Some views query that the Government has adopted double standards in handling TV licences and the assignment of 3G Spectrum, and the reason behind such a move is to provide tailor-made business environments to individual TV and telecommunications service operators. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4323
(a) as it has been reported that in response to the allegation of adopting double standards, a senior official had indicated that the TV market should not be compared with the telecommunications service market given the different developments of the two markets, of the specific differences between the developments of the two markets, which have caused the Government to formulate entirely different long-term development policies for them;
(b) as the authorities have reportedly said that should there be five free TV operators in the market, it will ultimately lead to the closure of several TV operators at the same time, bringing shocks to society, whether the authorities' not giving approval to all three TV licence applications was aimed at protecting individual TV operators which are less competitive from closing down; if so, of the details and the reasons for that; if not, whether it has assessed if the decision on TV licence applications made by the authorities has interfered with free market operation and obstructed fair competition;
(c) as the managing partner of the consultancy firm which wrote the reports on TV market for the Government had disclosed to the media that she had asked the authorities several times if it was necessary to update the consultancy reports regarding information on the market and the applicants, so that the authorities might make decisions on TV licence applications based on the most updated information, why the authorities have all along not requested the consultancy firm to update the consultancy reports; given that the consultancy firm had openly questioned certain approaches adopted by the authorities in handling TV licence applications, whether the authorities will penalize the consultancy firm by never hiring it again; and
(d) whether it has assessed if state-owned enterprises with abundant funds will pocket all the re-auctioned 3G Spectrum, as well as the implications of such a situation on the public; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Chinese): President, my reply to the four-part question is as follows:
4324 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
(a) Domestic free television programme services (free TV) and telecommunications services are subject to different licensing regimes, governing legislations and regulatory frameworks. Besides, while the Government's broadcasting and telecommunications policies have all along encouraged competitions, the present conditions and pace of development of these two different markets vary from each other. We therefore consider it inappropriate to make a direct comparison between these two markets.
(b) On 15 October 2013, the Government announced that, under the gradual and orderly approach in introducing competition into the free TV market, the Chief Executive in Council had decided to grant approval-in-principle to the applications of Fantastic Television Limited and HK Television Entertainment Company Limited for a free TV licence (the Decision). By virtue of the Decision, the number of free TV stations is expected to double from two to four, with an addition of four more free TV channels. It is the first time in nearly four decades that more competition will be introduced into the free TV market. The Decision could reap the benefits of introducing competition into the free TV market, and at the same time ensure a healthy and orderly development of the market for the protection of public interest. The Decision is not meant to protect the interest of existing licensees.
(c) The consultant (the Consultant)'s reports on the impact of introducing new competitors on the competition environment of the free TV market (the Consultant's Reports) are but one of the many factors the Chief Executive in Council had taken into account when considering the three free TV licence applications. The Government has never stated that the Decision was the recommendation of the Consultant's Reports. Apart from matters in relation to the Consultant's Reports, the Consultant was not involved in other procedures in processing the three free TV licence applications, including rounds of representations submitted by the applicants. We consider that the Consultant's recent public remarks on the Decision are probably based on incomplete information and misunderstandings about the Decision and the Government's explanations. We have openly expressed that it is very regrettable LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4325
for the Consultant to choose to express its views in public discussions, hence causing confusion to the public.
Based on the business plans and estimations submitted by the three applicants, the Consultant assessed the impact on the free TV market in Hong Kong if licences were to be granted to them. The Consultant's findings indicated that the local free TV market could hardly sustain a total of five players. The Communications Authority (the CA)'s and the Government's understandings of the Consultant's findings are the same. The Chief Executive in Council had considered all relevant factors, including but not limited to the Consultant's Reports, all representations submitted by the relevant parties subsequent to the completion of the Consultant's Reports and the latest market situation before making the Decision based on adequate information.
The Government's practice is to commission outside consultants as necessary to provide analysis and advice on particular issues, and to procure such consultancy service in accordance with the Stores and Procurement Regulations.
(d) The mobile telecommunications market in Hong Kong has all along been open to all without restriction on ownership by non-domestic capital. Judging by past experience in spectrum auction, the situation mentioned in the question does not arise. Moreover, to ensure a level playing field, the CA has already decided to impose a 40 MHz spectrum cap to all spectrum assignees in this spectrum reassignment, so as to limit the amount of spectrum in the 1.9 to 2.2 GHz band to be held by each operator.
Financial Burden of Students of Self-financing Post-secondary Programmes
12. MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Chinese): President, quite a number of students studying locally-accredited self-financing post-secondary programmes have relayed to me that the tuition fees of such programmes have been rising incessantly in recent years, rendering it necessary for them to take out substantial amounts of loans from the Student Financial Assistance Agency (SFAA). They 4326 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 are worried about the heavy burden of loan repayments in future. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it knows the respective (i) total number of places and (ii) average amount of tuition fees of the aforesaid programmes in each of the past five academic years, with a breakdown by programme type (that is, full-time associate degree, higher diploma and undergraduate programmes, and so on) (set out in tables of the same format as Table 1);
Table 1: Programme type:______
Academic year 2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 Total number of
places Average amount of
tuition fees
(b) of the numbers of students of the aforesaid programmes who applied for loans under SFAA and the total amounts of loans applied for in each of the past five academic years, with a breakdown by programme type (set out in tables of the same format as Table 2);
Table 2: Programme type:______
Academic year 2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 Number of students
applying for loans Aggregate amount of
loan applied for
(c) of the total amount of loans granted by SFAA to students of the aforesaid programmes, the total amount of interest received annually under such loans and the uses of such interest, since 2008; and
(d) whether it knows the adjustment mechanism for tuition fees of the aforesaid programmes; whether measures are in place to ensure the level of tuition fees not exceeding the repayment ability of those students in future; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4327
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Chinese): President,
(a) The number of new intakes and the annual tuition fees charged for full-time locallyaccredited self-financing sub-degree (including associate degree and higher diploma) and degree programmes between the 2008-2009 and 2012-2013 academic years are tabulated below:
2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 academic academic academic academic academic year year year year year@ Full-time locally-accredited self-financing sub-degree programmes Number of places for 17 000 15 600 16 400 15 500 17 400 associate degree prograrnmes Number of places for 9 600 11 000 10 200 8 700 15 200 higher diploma programmes Annual tuition fee 30,000 30,000 30,000 31,800 35,800 for sub-degree to to to to to programmes ($)& 59,000 59,000 59,000 80,300 79,200 Median tuition fee 43,800 44,000 44,000 45,000 47,900 Full-time locally-accredited self-financing degree programmes Number of places 3 200 3 100 3 500 4 500 7 900 Annual tuition fee Not Not 42,120 42 120 42,120 ($)& available available to to to 78,000 253,460 266,939 Median tuition fee Not Not 49,000 55,000 55,000 available available
Notes:
@ 2012 was a double-cohort year in which the first cohort of students sitting the Hong Kong Diploma of Secondary Education Examination and the last cohort of day school students sitting the Hong Kong Advanced Level Examination completed their secondary education at the same time.
& No statistical figures are available for the annual tuition fees charged respectively for Associate Degree and Higher Diploma programmes. Since institutions may charge different tuition fees for different levels of study in the same academic year, an average is used to represent the figure for the respective academic year and the average maximum and average minimum tuition fees charged by different institutions for each year are given.
4328 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
(b) Students pursuing full-time locally-accredited self-financing sub-degree (including associate degree and higher diploma) and degree programmes may apply for grant and loan under the Financial Assistance Scheme for Post-secondary Students (FASP). Those who pass the means test are eligible for a grant to cover tuition fees and academic expenses as well as a low-interest loan to cover living expenses. As for those who do not wish or fail to go through the means test, they may apply for a loan under the Nonmeans-tested Loan Scheme for Post-secondary Students (NLSPS) to cover their tuition fees. The number of students pursuing full-time locally-accredited self-financing sub-degree (including associate degree and higher diploma) and degree programmes who applied for means-tested and non-means-tested loans, the number of students receiving loan and the loan amount disbursed between the 2008-2009 and 2012-2013 academic years are tabulated below:
2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 academic academic academic academic academic year year year year year Full-time locally-accredited self-financing associate degree programmes Means-tested loan Number of loan 7 430 9 135 11 044 10 676 12 389 applicants* Number of applicants 2 658 3 436 3 934 3 614 2 909 receiving loan# Loan amount 65.10 88.62 103.67 106.20 89.53 disbursed ($ million) Non-means-tested loan Number of loan 4 195 5 045 6 192 5 827 7 399 applicants Number of applicants 2 469 2 942 3 632 3 196 3 900 receiving loan^ Loan amount 142.59 174.54 219.17 205.09 180.09 disbursed ($ million) Full-time locally-accredited self-financing higher diploma programmes Means-tested loan Number of loan 10 055 10 902 10 793 10 162 12 288 applicants* Number of applicants 2 766 3 105 3 106 2 844 2 607 receiving loan# Loan amount 67.98 79.38 82.13 85.10 82.10 disbursed ($ million) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4329
2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 academic academic academic academic academic year year year year year Non-means-tested loan Number of loan 4 324 4 932 4 942 4 766 6 332 applicants Number of applicants 2 572 2 858 2 996 2 763 3 520 receiving loan^ Loan amount 142.70 162.40 170.54 175.36 163.79 disbursed ($ million) Full-time locally-accredited self-financing degree programmes Means-tested loan Number of loan 4 458 5 694 6 296 6 922 9 257 applicants* Number of applicants 1 940 2 516 2 793 2 970 3 169 receiving loan# Loan amount 47.72 63.85 71.59 84.94 94.99 disbursed ($ million) Non-means-tested loan Number of loan 2 886 3 616 3 700 4 029 6 314 applicants Number of applicants 1 814 2 266 2 397 2 434 4 152 receiving loan^ Loan amount 109.91 143.47 153.85 174.08 245.98 disbursed ($ million)
Notes:
* Students apply for grant and loan concurrently under FASP.
# Applicants for means-tested loans are required to go through SFAA's vetting, and the approval rate is about 80%. The number of students receiving loan was smaller than that of applicants because some of the students decided not to take out the loan offered after receiving a grant.
^ After submitting a NLSPS application, some of the students were offered assistance under FASP and decided not to take out the non-means-tested loan offered.
To alleviate the repayment burden of student loan borrowers, the Government completed the review on the operation of means-tested and non-means-tested loan schemes in 2012 and implemented the improvement measures of lowering the interest rate and extending the repayment period. For means-tested loans, the interest rate has been reduced from 2.5% to 1% per annum and the standard repayment period has been extended from five years to 15 years. 4330 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
For non-means-tested loans, the risk-adjustedfactor rate has been reduced from 1.5% to 0% (subject to review three years after implementation). The prevailing interest rate is 1.395% per annum, and the standard repayment period has also been extended from 10 years to 15 years. Regarding the repayment amount, based on the median means-tested loan of $40,000 borrowed by students of full-time locally-accredited self-financing programmes who graduated in 2012, after lowering the interest rate and extending the repayment period, the monthly repayment amount has been significantly reduced by 66% from $711 to $240. With regard to the median non-means-tested loan of $87,000 borrowed by graduates of the same programmes in the same year, after lowering the interest rate and extending the repayment period, the monthly repayment amount has been reduced by nearly 40% from $897 to $557.
(c) The amounts of means-tested and non-means-tested loans disbursed to students pursuing full-time locally-accredited self-financing sub-degree (including associate degree and higher diploma) and degree programmes and the interest received each year between the 2008-2009 and 2012-2013 academic years are tabulated below:
2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 academic academic academic academic academic year year year year year Loan amount ($ million) Means-tested loan 180.80 231.85 257.39 276.24 266.62 Non-means-tested 395.20 480.41 543.56 554.53 589.86 loan Interest income ($ million)% Means-tested loan 4.68 4.96 6.03 7.55 3.63 Non-means-tested 42.27 44.63 51.99 60.17 49.31 loan
Note:
% The interest income for each academic year includes the aggregate amount of interest paid for through all repayment accounts in that particular year. As such, there is no direct relationship between the interest income and the loan amount disbursed in each academic year.
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Means-tested and non-means-tested loans are financed by the Loan Fund of the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. According to the Memorandum Note of the Loan Fund, the interest income of such loans should be credited to the Loan Fund to finance part of the new loans.
(d) Post-secondary institutions in Hong Kong enjoy a high degree of autonomy in academic development and administration. Overall, when setting the tuition fee levels for selffinancing programmes, institutions plan on the basis of a balanced budget and adopt a prudent approach, taking into account a basket of factors, including expected enrolment, similar programmes available in the market, and affordability of the target group.
For students with financial difficulties, the Government has set up various assistance schemes to ensure that no students are denied access to post-secondary education due to a lack of means. As mentioned in part (b) of this reply, students with financial difficulties may apply for grant and/or low-interest loan to cover tuition fees, academic expenses and living expenses under the means-tested FASP. Alternatively, they may apply for a loan under the NLSPS to cover tuition fees.
Employment of Part-time Nurses by Hospital Authority
13. PROF JOSEPH LEE (in Chinese): President, regarding the employment of part-time nurses by the Hospital Authority (HA), will the Government inform this Council if it knows:
(a) the modes under which part-time nurses are currently employed by HA, and the employment terms under each mode; the criteria based on which the HA determines the number of part-time nurses to be employed and their employment terms;
(b) in respect of each employment mode, the number of part-time nurses employed by the HA with a breakdown by rank, and the average, longest and shortest periods of employment of the part-time nurses of each rank;
4332 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
(c) given that the Employment Ordinance (Cap. 57) provides that an employee shall be entitled to certain employee rights and benefits only if he or she is employed under a continuous contract (that is, he or she has been employed by the same employer for four weeks or more, with at least 18 hours worked in each week), whether the HA has, for the purpose of evading its obligations to provide part-time nurses with employee rights and benefits so as to save resources, deliberately made administrative arrangements to make their working hours not meeting the conditions for a continuous contract;
(d) the number of part-time nurses currently employed by the HA not under a continuous contract, and the reasons for that; and
(e) whether the HA has considered making more flexible work arrangements for part-time nurses and improving their employment terms, so as to retain part-time nurses and attract more nurses to join their ranks; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Chinese): President, the HA has been employing part-time staff, including part-time nurses, to relieve the work pressure of front-line staff. At present, individual clusters recruit part-time staff on established employment terms in accordance with the HA's prevailing human resource policies and in the light of their operational needs.
My reply to the various parts of the question is as follows:
(a) The HA recruits three types of part-time nurses, namely permanent part-time nurses, contract part-time nurses and temporary part-time nurses.
In general, the employment terms for permanent part-time and contract part-time nurses, such as basic salary, allowance, annual leave and sick leave, are pro-rated according to the percentage of work hours per week. Other benefits include public and statutory holidays, maternity leave, paternity leave, medical benefits, and death and disability benefits, and so on.
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The basic salary for temporary part-time nurses is also determined by the actual number of hours worked and is paid on a monthly basis. They are also entitled to medical benefits. Other benefits, such as annual leave, public and statutory holidays, sick leave and maternity leave, are provided in accordance with the Employment Ordinance.
The HA will determine the number and type of part-time nurses to be employed having regard to operational needs, manpower requirement and financial situation.
(b) The number and rank of various types of part-time nurses in the HA, as well as their average, longest and shortest period of employment as at 30 September 2013 are set out below:
Part-time employment
period (Years) Full-time Employment Head- Rank equivalent Average Longest Shortest type count(1) staff(2) Permanent 5 3.20 17.36 20.24 15.95 Advanced Practice Nurse/ part-time Nurse Specialist/ Contract 7 4.16 2.72 5.43 0.49 Nursing Officer/ part-time Ward Manager Temporary 16 11.67 1.25 5.34 0.13 part-time Advanced Practice Nurse/ Nurse Specialist/ Nursing Officer/ Ward Manager Total 28 19.03 4.49 20.24 0.13 Permanent 20 12.38 11.33 20.49 2.16 part-time Contract Registered Nurse 11 6.37 3.15 7.99 0.58 part-time Temporary 583 385.94 3.00 16.74 0(3) part-time Registered Nurse Total 614 404.69 3.27 20.49 0(3) Permanent 1 0.62 15.33 15.33 15.33 part-time Enrolled Nurse/ Contract 2 1.34 2.63 4.80 0.46 Midwife part-time Temporary 109 71.28 2.80 8.73 0.01 part-time 4334 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Part-time employment
period (Years) Full-time Employment Head- Rank equivalent Average Longest Shortest type count(1) staff(2) Enrolled Nurse/Midwife Total 112 73.24 2.91 15.33 0.01 Total 754 496.96 3.26 20.49 0(3)
Notes:
(1) "Headcount" includes all permanent, contract and temporary part-time staff of the HA, excluding Electronic Health Record (eHR) staff.
(2) "Full-time equivalent staff" includes all permanent, contract and temporary part-time staff of the HA, excluding eHR staff.
(3) The shortest part-time employment period was one day.
(4) The above figures do not include temporary part-time nursing students.
(c) When recruiting part-time nurses, the HA usually determines the number and the employment type having regard to operational needs and manpower requirement. The HA has not put in place any administrative arrangements to make the working hours of part-time nurses lower than the number specified for a continuous contract.
(d) Currently, there are 178 part-time nurses (excluding temporary part-time nursing students) of the HA not employed under a continuous contract. Renewal of their contracts mainly depends on factors such as staffing arrangement with regard to operational needs and wishes of the nurses themselves.
(e) When determining the remuneration and terms of employment for staff of all grades, including full-time and part-time nursing staff, the HA will consider such factors as job requirements, operational needs and market conditions. Apart from the terms of employment, the HA will take into consideration other factors such as working environment and job satisfaction so as to attract and retain manpower.
The HA endeavours to improve the working environment of front-line staff (including part-time nurses) so as to ease their work pressure and retain manpower. In addition to the recruitment of part-time nurses, the HA has adopted various measures to attract and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4335
retain nursing staff. These measures, which include recruiting additional full-time nurses, providing 3 000 additional electrically-operated beds to simplify the work processes of ward staff, and improving ward environment and streamlining workflow to reduce the substantial workload of front-line nurses, will help improve the working environment of full-time and part-time front-line nurses so as to attract and retain manpower.
iBonds Issued by Government
14. MR SIN CHUNG-KAI (in Chinese): President, regarding the three batches of inflation-linked retail bonds (iBond) which have been issued, will the Government inform this Council of:
(a) the annual total returns and rates of return on investment, after deduction of the fund management fees and other related costs, in relation to the sum received from each batch of iBond issuance and placed with the Exchange Fund for investment purpose;
(b) the annual total amount of interests paid by the Government for each batch of iBond and the respective interest rates for each batch of iBond; and
(c) the total interest payments, proceeds, total management fees and net surplus for each batch of iBond?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Chinese): President,
(a) There is no separate investment arrangement for individual bond issuances. Proceeds from bond issuances (including those from the iBonds) are credited to the Bond Fund, which is placed with the Exchange Fund for investment and attracts investment income on the basis of the "fixed rate" sharing arrangement applicable to fiscal reserves. The Exchange Fund does not charge management fees or other fees for managing the Bond Fund. The investment returns of the Bond Fund (both in actual amounts and in percentage terms) since the first iBond issuance in 2011 were:
4336 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Investment return(1) Rates of investment return(2) Year (HK$ million) (% per annum) 2011 2,123.7 6.0 2012 3,380.6 5.6
Source: Hong Kong Monetary Authority (HKMA)
Notes :
(1) The investment return of the Bond Fund in 2013 is not available at the moment, as relevant sums will only be credited to the Bond Fund on 31 December 2013.
(2) These are the investment returns based on the "fixed rate" sharing arrangement.
(b) The iBonds make half-yearly interest payments that are linked to the inflation rate of the most recent six-month period. As at end November 2013, the relevant interest payments made for the first two issuances of iBonds were:
The First iBond Issuance
Half-yearly Payment Interest rate Year interest amount Payment date per annum payment (HK$ million) First 309.8 6.08% 30 January 2012 Second 252.8 5.07% 30 July Third 168.5 3.38% 28 January 2013 Fourth 188.0 3.77% 29 July
The Second iBond Issuance
Half-yearly Payment Interest rate Year interest amount Payment date per annum payment (HK$ million) 2012 First 176.4 3.48% 24 December 2013 Second 186.0 3.73% 24 June
Source: HKMA
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The second and third iBond issuances will make their respective third and first half-yearly interest payments on 23 and 24 December 2013. The interest rate per annum of the two payments is 4.72%.
(c) As stated in part (a) above, there is no separate investment arrangement for individual bond issuances. The Exchange Fund does not charge management fees for managing the Bond Fund. Hence, we are unable to provide the investment income, management fee and net surplus (that is, investment income minus interest payments and other issuance-related expenses) for each iBond issuance. Nevertheless, for the Bond Fund as a whole, according to the accounts of Bond Fund audited by the Audit Commission, the yearly investment income, interest payments, other expenses (including issuance-related expenses) and net surplus since the first iBond issuance (that is, financial year 2011-2012) are shown below:
Investment Interest Other Financial Net surplus income payment expenses year (HK$ million) (HK$ million) (HK$ million) (HK$ million) 2011-2012 2,123.7 785.3 32.4 1,306.0 2012-2013 3,380.6 1,241.4 25.3 2,113.9
District Consultation Activities Conducted by Chief Executive
15. MR PAUL TSE (in Chinese): President, it has been reported that on each occasion of the Chief Executive conducting a consultation activity in a district, huge crowds assemble at the scene and stage protests. As people holding different views in the crowds frequently have conflicts, the police have to deploy significant manpower to maintain order. Moreover, during a consultation forum conducted by Chief Executive in Sha Tin last month, about half of those drawn by lots for raising questions were District Council members (DC members). Therefore, some members of the public who attended that forum alleged that the forum had been reduced to a platform for DC members to express their views and its effectiveness in consulting the public was questionable. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
4338 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
(a) of the police manpower deployed on average for each of these district consultation activities conducted by the incumbent Chief Executive since his assumption of office, the numbers of officers in uniform and in plain-clothes among those deployed and their ratio, and the average total payroll cost for deploying such officers to discharge the duties concerned on each occasion;
(b) whether it has assessed the actual effectiveness of such consultation activities; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(c) whether it has assessed, in terms of the effectiveness of gauging people's views, the differences between using platforms such as the Internet or telephone, and taking the current cumbersome approach by Chief Executive and the principal officials in conducting personal visits to various districts; if it has assessed, of the results; if not, whether it will do so immediately; and
(d) given that on each occasion when Chief Executive attends a district consultation activity, a large number of people holding different views assemble, which often develops into a war of words and even scuffles, whether the authorities have reviewed if such a phenomenon will intensify social conflicts; if they have conducted such a review, of the results; whether the authorities will consider not holding such activities again, or switching to use the Internet, telephone or other platforms for Chief Executive to gauge people's views, so as to reduce the unnecessary nuisance to the districts, as well as to save police manpower and public money?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Chinese): President, the Chief Executive and his political team maintain close contact with members of the public through regional forums. Listening directly to public views is very useful for formulating and implementing policies responsive to public aspirations and befitted the community.
My reply to the four parts of the question raised by Mr Paul TSE is as follows:
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4339
(a) In the light of the objectives, nature, number of participants, risk assessments and operational needs of individual events, the police would formulate corresponding strategies and contingency plans, deploy their manpower flexibly and implement crowd management measures. The Field Commander, having regard to the circumstances and conditions at the scene, would also make appropriate arrangements to ensure public safety and public order. As the manpower deployment for an operation contributes to police's operational details, it is not appropriate to disclose such information.
(b) The regional forums facilitate the Government to communicate with the public directly and to gauge public views and social sentiments, in order to address public concerns and aspirations. At the three recent regional forums on the Policy Address and the Budget, a wide range of public views on future government policies and the preparation of the Budget have been received. The Government will give due consideration to these views when preparing the Policy Address and the Budget.
In addition to territory-wide issues, District Council members, district personalities and members of the public have also offered, at the regional forums, many concrete and useful suggestions on district development and management as well as the future work of the Government. The Government will follow up their recommendations in a pragmatic manner.
(c) and (d)
The Government has always made use of various channels to gauge public views and social sentiments. In addition to regional forums, the Government collects public opinions through the Legislative Council, District Councils, advisory and statutory bodies, District Offices, public opinion surveys, the Internet, and so on. For instance, a dedicated website has been set up for the 2014 Policy Address and 2014-2015 Budget to collect public views. As for regional forums, it is an effective channel for Chief Executive and government officials to maintain close contact with members of the public, and listen and address to their views. The Government will continue to use suitable channels, including regional forums, to collect public views. 4340 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Allocation of Land and Vacant School Premises for Education Purposes
16. DR KENNETH CHAN (in Chinese): President, it is learnt that, at present, quite a number of school sponsoring bodies and tertiary institutions hope that the Government will grant land for them to build schools or teaching facilities. Regarding the planning of land for education purposes and the arrangements for vacant school premises, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the details of the idle government sites which have currently been planned for education purposes, including their locations, areas, the duration for which they have been left idle, the types of educational institutions by which such sites have been planned to be used and the specific uses planned, as well as their current uses;
(b) of the details of the various vacant school premises which have currently been returned to the Government, including their addresses, floor areas, the types of educational institutions to which the original users belonged, the numbers of classrooms (CRs) and facilities available therein, the duration for which they have been left vacant, their current situations, as well as the finalized uses of the school premises or the sites on which such school premises are located;
(c) in respect of all idle government sites which have currently been planned for education purposes and the government sites on which vacant school premises are located, whether the Government has drawn up specific development plans and implementation timetables for such plans; if it has, of the details; if not, whether the Government will expeditiously draw up such plans and timetables; if it will draw up such plans, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(d) whether the Education Bureau had received in the past three years any proposals put forward by other Policy Bureaux for rezoning certain idle government sites originally planned for education purposes to other uses; if it had, of the details of the locations, areas, proposed new uses and development plans of such sites; and
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4341
(e) whether the Education Bureau has plans to discuss with other Policy Bureaux to strive for rezoning more idle government sites for education purposes, thereby providing school sponsoring bodies and tertiary institutions with the land needed; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Chinese): President, regarding the arrangement for allocation of land and vacant school premises for educational purposes, my reply is as follows:
(a) and (c)
As at December 2013, there are a total of 17 reserved school sites (including primary, secondary and special school use) in the territory with concrete School Building Programmes and the time frame of the development would be subject to, among others, views of the District Councils, progress of technical works and funding approval. Project planning and preparation works for these school building projects, such as technical feasibility study and school design, are being carried out in accordance with the prevailing procedures. A breakdown of the 17 reserved school sites by districts with their location, site area and planned use is set out at Annex 1. Among them, funding approval for two has been obtained from the Finance Committee of the Legislative Council in the 2012-2013 Legislative Council Session with the school building works already underway, while that for another three would be sought in the current Legislative Council Session with the school building works expected to commence in late 2014. For the remaining ones, site swap for two is being explored with the Development Bureau, two fall within a private development project, and the remaining eight are either being deployed for temporary use or with detailed design being undertaken for the school building programme thereon.
(b) As regards vacant school premises, a total of 87 public sector primary schools ceased operation in the school years from 2003-2004 to 2012-2013 for not meeting the minimum threshold 4342 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
number of Primary One students under the policy on "Consolidation of Under-utilized Primary Schools". During the same period, 17 secondary schools ceased operation due to various reasons and two secondary schools merged with other schools. As at end August 2013, among these 106 school premises that have become vacant, 45 of them have already been deployed or re-allocated for further educational uses (please refer to Table (1) of Annex 2 for details). As for the other 61 premises, 11 of them have been earmarked for further educational uses (please refer to Table (2) of Annex 2 for details) and action is underway to put these premises into operation in accordance with the earmarked uses. The remaining 50 premises have been found not suitable for educational purpose (please refer to Table (3) of Annex 2 for details) mainly due to their limited size and remote locations. The Education Bureau has informed the Planning Department (PlanD) and returned these 50 premises to the relevant departments for consideration of alternative uses in accordance with the prevailing established arrangement.
The Education Bureau has an established mechanism for handling vacant school premises. Once a vacant/to-be-vacant school premises is identified, we will consider if the size, location and physical conditions of the premises would render it suitable for re-allocation for school or other educational uses. Since the vacant school premises are purpose-built buildings for school operation, in determining whether and how the vacant school premises suitable for school or other educational uses should be earmarked, when necessary, we would in general accord higher priority to school use, for example, primary schools, secondary schools, special schools and international schools, before considering other educational uses. Should the Education Bureau wish to deploy the vacant school premises for other educational uses, these proposed uses would need to compete with other departments' proposed uses.
In addition, we would take into account the conditions and location of the school premises, demand for public sector school places in the district, reprovisioning needs of schools in the district and the need to provide diversity in the school system, with a view to meeting LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4343
various educational needs in the territory and be in support of relevant policy initiatives. Besides, in view of the precious land resources involved and the various requests made by members of the community for early identification and disposal of vacant school premises to meet educational and other community needs, we have strengthened our existing mechanism by enhancing our liaison with various Policy Bureaux and departments concerned so as to facilitate early planning on the long-term use of the vacant/to-be-vacated school premises, thus enabling early deployment of the premises upon cessation of operation of the schools concerned.
Regarding the vacant school premises which have been earmarked for long-term use but would be available for interim short-term use, for the purpose of proper use of resources, the Education Bureau will follow the existing practice to regularly inform relevant government departments and invite them to consider the premises for short-term uses.
As regards the premises that are not suitable for further school or other educational uses, we would inform the PlanD and return these school premises to relevant departments (such as the Lands Department) for their consideration on alternative uses in accordance with the prevailing established arrangement.
(d) and (e)
Under the established mechanism, the PlanD will reserve sites for school development when preparing town plans and planning large-scale residential developments having regard to the planned population intake and on the basis of the needs for community services in accordance with the guidelines set out in the Hong Kong Planning Standards and Guidelines. In the process, the Education Bureau will be consulted on whether school sites should be reserved. As far as long-term planning in primary and secondary education is concerned, the Education Bureau will make reference to the school-age population projections, which are compiled based on the population projections updated regularly by the Census and Statistics 4344 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Department(1), and take into account the actual number of existing students at various levels and cross-boundary students(2) as well as the latest demographic changes, including the number of newly-arrived children from the Mainland, in estimating the future demand for school places and relevant resources. When planning the School Building Programme for reserved school sites, the Education Bureau will consider the latest projections, the prevailing educational initiatives, other factors that may affect the demand for school places in certain districts and different options to increase the supply of places (for example, utilizing vacant CRs in existing schools) in particular districts. We will consider if there is a long-term need to identify reserved school sites to meet the projected demand(3) and relevant educational initiatives, and liaise with the PlanD accordingly when such need arises. We will also consider the projected demand for school places in the district in the medium and the longer term, the technical feasibility of developing the site and the likelihood of acquiring alternative school sites in the district, and so on, before we decide to retain or release a particular reserved school site so as to facilitate better utilization of valuable land resources. For example, the ex-reserved secondary school site at Choi Hing Road, Kwun Tong has been released to the PlanD for alternative use following the earlier review of the School Building Programme in 2011. The PlanD has already identified a
(1) The latest set of population projections (that is, 2011-based Population Projections) was released in July 2012, which had adopted the results of the 2011 Population Census and latest assumptions on fertility of local women, time and rate of return of over 180 000 babies born to Mainland women in Hong Kong whose fathers are non-permanent residents of Hong Kong (that is, Type II babies) during 2006 to 2012, and children admitted under One-way Permits. It is worth noting that the actual number of Type II babies who would settle in Hong Kong and if so, when, is subject to high uncertainty and that should they settle and live in Hong Kong, their demand on school places in individual districts is even more difficult to predict.
(2) Cross-boundary students are not counted as part of Hong Kong resident population. Their numbers as well as the boundary control points which they use to access Hong Kong are subject to year-on-year changes depending on family factors, distribution of their places of residence, and adjustment of relevant policies, and so on. Therefore, it is difficult to make an accurate projection.
(3) If it is established that there is a need for more public sector school places in individual district, we will, as a general rule, first consider providing additional CRs within the existing school premises, for example, recycling suitable vacant school premises for school use, and so on, to increase the supply of school places. We will implement school building projects to increase the supply when the above measures are unable to meet the expected demand. More flexible measures such as converting other rooms into CRs or borrowing school places from other school nets will be adopted if the demand is believed to be temporary in nature. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4345 replacement site for school development for meeting future educational needs.
The Administration and the University Grants Committee (UGC) are committed to supporting the development of publicly-funded teaching facilities and student hostels by the UGC-funded institutions in accordance with the established policies and calculation criteria. To ensure optimal use of limited land resources, the Administration and the UGC encourage the UGC-funded funded institutions to identify suitable sites within campus to develop the needed teaching facilities and student hostels, or consider the conversion or expansion of existing campus structures so as to make the best use of campus land.
Where necessary, we will also identify suitable Government land outside the campus for the UGC-funded institutions to meet their development needs under the prevailing policies and calculation criteria. As a matter of fact, we are now having discussions with some of the UGC-funded institutions facing a shortfall in student hostels and teaching facilities to study the feasibility of developing student hostels or teaching facilities on different sites. Regarding site selection, we take a range of relevant factors into consideration. These include whether there are any additional requirements for space by the UGC-funded institutions under the prevailing policies, whether the campuses of the UGC-funded institutions are already fully utilized and whether there is potential for redevelopment and expansion, as well as the locations of existing campuses and the supply of land reserved for higher education purposes. Whether it is land within the campus of the UGC-funded institutions or new Government land identified for the UGC-funded institutions, the resources should first and foremost be used to meet the requirements of the UGC-funded institutions for publicly-funded facilities under the existing policies and calculation criteria. In principle, the UGC takes interest in all building development projects of funded institutions (including self-financed projects) to ensure that these proposed projects are in line with the master development plan of the respective campus and consistent with the roles and missions of the funded institutions as agreed with the UGC. Furthermore, it is 4346 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
necessary to ensure that the building development projects will not become a burden to the UGC-funded institutions and eventually to the UGC and the Government. Institutions are therefore required to inform the UGC of any wholly privately-funded projects before their commencement.
The Government has been actively identifying suitable land sites and vacant school premises for the self-financing post-secondary sector to facilitate the operation of quality self-financing full-time locally accredited post-secondary programmes by non-profit-making institutions. Up till now, the Government has granted 11 land sites and six vacant school premises under the Land Grant Scheme for self-financing higher education use, including the ex-Victoria Road Detention Centre site rolled out this year and a vacant school premises in Ma On Shan. At present, we have reserved a proposed building within a proposed development project in Tai Wai for self-financing higher education use. To further facilitate the steady development of the self-financing higher education sector, the Government has recently revised the Land Grant Scheme. Under the revised Land Grant Scheme, apart from sites and vacant school premises, suitable vacant government properties could also be allocated to non-profit-making institutions.
Annex 1
Reserved school sites by district
Site Area Number of District Location (square Planned use Remark CRs metre) 1. Kowloon Kai Tak 6 600 Primary School 30 (i) City Development 2. Kowloon Kai Tak 6 600 Primary School 30 (i) City Development 3. Kowloon Kai Tak 8 400 Two Special 12 each (ii) City Development Schools 4. Kowloon Kai Tak 7 500 Secondary 30 (iii) City Development School LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4347
Site Area Number of District Location (square Planned use Remark CRs metre) 5. Kowloon Kai Tak 7 680 Secondary 30 (iii) City Development School 6. Kwun Tong Jordan Valley 6 960 Special School 18 (ii) 7. Kwun Tong Jordan Valley 6 865 Secondary 30 (iv) School 8. Kwun Tong Anderson Road 6 441 Primary School 30 (iii) 9. Hong Kong North Point 12 260 Primary School 24 (iii) East (Total) 10. Hong Kong North Point Primary School 24 (iii) East 11. North Fanling 7 428 Primary School 36 (ii) 12. Sham Shui Cheung Sha 6 507 Primary School 30 (iii) Po Wan 13. Sham Shui Cheung Sha 4 400 Special School 12 (iii) Po Wan 14. Sai Kung Tseung Kwan O 6 200 Primary School 30 (v) 15. Sai Kung Tseung Kwan O 6 950 Secondary 30 (v) School 16. Tuen Mun Tuen Mun West 2 600 Special School 13 (iii) 17. Islands Tung Chung 5 500 Special School 18 (iv)
Remarks:
(i) Funding approval has been obtained from the Finance Committee of the Legislative Council in the 2012-2013 Legislative Council Session for the school building project.
(ii) Funding approval would be sought from the Finance Committee of the Legislative Council in the 2013-2014 Legislative Council Session for the school building project.
(iii) The site is either being deployed for temporary use or with detailed design being undertaken for the school building project thereon.
(iv) The Education Bureau is liaising with the relevant bureau/department for possible site swap.
(v) The site falls within a private development project and is not regarded as Government land.
4348 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Annex 2
Table (1) Information on 45 Vacant School Premises Re-deployed or Re-allocated for Further Educational Uses (Position as at end August 2013)
Year in which School the school Year in Site area Facilities premises was which the of school (No. of Detailed school re-deployed/ No. District school School name premises CR and address re-allocated ceased (square special for further operation metre)(1) room educational (SR)) uses 1 Kowloon 2004- The Church of 170 Kau Pui 2 137 CR：18 2001(2) City 2005 Christ in China Lung Road, Ma SR：8 Nim Tsi Tau Wai, School* Kowloon 2 Kwai 2004- Po Leung Kuk 8 Tsing Chin 4 000 CR：18 2001(2) Tsing 2005 Tsing Yi Street, Tsing Yi, SR：10 Secondary New Territories School (Skills Opportunity)* 3 North 2004- Yan Chai 2 Wo Muk Road, 4 500 CR：18 2003(2) 2005 Hospital No. 5 Luen Wo Hui, SR：11 Secondary Fanling, New School (Skill Territories Opportunity)* 4 Kwai 2005- Lok Sin Tong Estate School 3 900# CR：23 2006 Tsing 2006 Lau Sai Yan No. 1, Lai King SR：4 Primary School Estate, Kwai Chung, New Territories 5 Islands 2006- Cheung Chau School Road, 5 756 CR：7 2006 2007 Public School Cheung Chau, SR：5 New Territories 6 Kowloon 2006- Kowloon City 4 Ying Choi 1 246 CR：6 2007 City 2007 District Kai Path, Kowloon SR：4 Fong Welfare Association School LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4349
Year in which School the school Year in Site area Facilities premises was which the of school (No. of Detailed school re-deployed/ No. District school School name premises CR and address re-allocated ceased (square special for further operation metre)(1) room educational (SR)) uses 7 North 2006- Sha Tau Kok Sha Tau Kok 8 105 CR：23 2008 2007 Government Road, Sha Tau SR：14 Secondary Kok, New School* Territories 8 Sham 2006- Po On 13 Tong Yam 1 207 CR：12 2006 Shui 2007 Commercial Street, Tai Hang SR：4 Po Association Tung, Kowloon School 9 Sha 2006- Hong Kong Sha Kok Estate, 5 217# CR：24 2009 Tin 2007 Municipal Sha Tin, New SR：6 Service Territories General Staff Association Sha Kok Primary School 10 Wan 2006- Wanchai 30 Oi Kwan 2 005 CR：22 2006 Chai 2007 School Road, Wan Chai, SR：6 Hong Kong 11 Yau 2006- Hong Kong KIL 6719, Sai 1 183 CR：12 2011 Tsim 2007 Vernacular Yee Street, SR：2 Mong Normal Mong Kok, Schools Kowloon Alumni Association School 12 North 2006- Fung Kai No. 2 15 Jockey Club 2 823 CR：14 2013 2007 Secondary Road, Sheung School* Shui, New Territories 13 Islands 2007- Caritas St. Paul CC Lot 6 224 CR：13 2010 2008 Secondary No. 1139, Lung SR：12 School* Tsai Tsuen and Peak Road, Cheung Chau, New Territories 4350 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Year in which School the school Year in Site area Facilities premises was which the of school (No. of Detailed school re-deployed/ No. District school School name premises CR and address re-allocated ceased (square special for further operation metre)(1) room educational (SR)) uses 14 Eastern 2007- The Building 62 Tin Hau 6 505 CR：16 2007 2008 Contractors' Temple Road, SR：5 Association Causeway Bay, School Hong Kong 15 Kwun 2007- Five Districts Estate School 3 122# CR：24 2009 Tong 2008 Business No. 2, Ping Shek SR：5 Welfare Estate, Kwun Association Tong, Kowloon Yan Kow School 16 Sai 2007- Hong Kong Estate Primary 4 520# CR：21 2009 Kung 2008 Taoist School No. 2, SR：8 Association Phase II, Tsui Tong Tang Lam Estate, Sook Fong Area 5, Tseung Memorial Kwan O, New School Territories 17 Sham 2007- Kow Kong 7 Pui Tak Street, 1 300 CR：11 2007 Shui 2008 Commercial Sham Shui Po, Po Association Kowloon School 18 Sha 2007- Ho Fai Primary Yiu On Estate, 3 900# CR：24 2009 Tin 2008 School Ma On Shan, SR：6 (Sponsored by Sha Tin, New Sik Sik Yuen) Territories 19 Southern 2007- Shue Yan 2 Police School 4 552 CR：25 2007 2008 Secondary Road, Wong SR：16 School* Chuk Hang, Hong Kong 20 Wan 2007- St. Margaret's 1E Shiu Fai 2 974 CR：24 2008 Chai 2008 College* Terrace, Stubbs SR：15 Road, Wan Chai, Hong Kong LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4351
Year in which School the school Year in Site area Facilities premises was which the of school (No. of Detailed school re-deployed/ No. District school School name premises CR and address re-allocated ceased (square special for further operation metre)(1) room educational (SR)) uses 21 Kowloon 2007- Hung Hom 16 Station Lane, 418 CR：6 2013 City 2008 Kaifong Kowloon SR：6 Association Primary School 22 Islands 2008- Shun Tak 2 School Road, 857 CR：4 2008 2009 Public School Cheung Chau, SR：2 Cheung Chau New Territories 23 Kowloon 2008- The Society of 22 Sheung 1 158 CR：8 2012 City 2009 Natives of Heung Road, SR：7 Chaolian To Kwa Wan, Cheung Chuk Kowloon Shan Memorial School 24 Sai 2008- Grantham Estate Primary 4 520# CR：24 2008 Kung 2009 College of School 1, Tsui SR：12 Education Past Lam Estate, Students' Phase II, Tseung Association Kwan O, Area 5, Tseung Kwan New Territories O Primary School 25 Sai 2008- Hang Hou 1 King Yin 3 534 CR：24 2012 Kung 2009 Central Shing Lane, Tseung SR：8 Hang Fong Kwan O, New Memorial Territories Primary School 26 Sai 2008- Sam Yuk 1111 Clear 41 300 CR：26 2010 Kung 2009 Middle Water Bay Road, SR：11 School* Sai Kung, New Territories 27 Sha 2008- Tung Wah Mei Lam Estate, 3 900# CR：24 2008 Tin 2009 Group of Sha Tin, New SR：7 Hospitals Tam Territories Shiu Primary School 4352 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Year in which School the school Year in Site area Facilities premises was which the of school (No. of Detailed school re-deployed/ No. District school School name premises CR and address re-allocated ceased (square special for further operation metre)(1) room educational (SR)) uses 28 Sha 2008- Po Leung Kuk Estate School 3 626# CR：21 2008 Tin 2009 Wong Clan No. 3, Wo Che SR：2 Association Estate, Sha Tin, Primary School New Territories 29 Sha 2008- Caritas Shatin 18-24 Man Lai 5 007 CR：24 2009 Tin 2009 Marden Road, Sha Tin, SR：16 Foundation New Territories Secondary School* 30 Southern 2008- Kwong Yuet 3 Wah Lam Path, 2 442 CR：21 2008 2009 Tong Excel Wah Fu Estate, SR：13 Foundation Pok Fu Lam, Primary School Hong Kong 31 Wan 2008- Hong Kong 17A Ventris 2 660 CR：15 2010 Chai 2009 Sam Yuk Road, Happy SR：9 Secondary Valley, Hong School* Kong 32 Yau 2008- Hong Kong 189 Prince 944 CR：12 2008 Tsim 2009 Weaving Mills Edward Road, SR：5 Mong Association Mong Kok, Primary School Kowloon 33 Kowloon 2008- Poo Ai 5 Dyer Avenue, 1 748 CR：18 2012 City 2009 Catholic Hung Hom, SR：4 Primary School Kowloon 34 Southern 2008- Hong Kong Ma Hang Village 4 860# CR：30 2013 2009 Cheng's Phase III, SR：6 Clansmen Stanley, Hong General Kong Association Cheng Jack Yiu School 35 Kowloon 2009- Hung Hom 68 Gillies 2 600 CR：24 2010 City 2010 Government Avenue, Hung SR：8 Primary School Hom, Kowloon LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4353
Year in which School the school Year in Site area Facilities premises was which the of school (No. of Detailed school re-deployed/ No. District school School name premises CR and address re-allocated ceased (square special for further operation metre)(1) room educational (SR)) uses 36 Kwai 2009- Sheung Kwai 11 Shek Pai 8 333 CR：23 2010 Tsing 2010 Chung Street, Shek Lei SR：14 Government Estate, Sheung Secondary Kwai Chung, School* New Territories 37 Kwai 2009- Ha Kwai 85 Hing Shing 4 715 CR：22 2008(2) Tsing 2010 Chung Road, Ha Kwai SR：16 Government Chung, New Secondary Territories School* 38 Sha 2009- Buddhist Estate Primary 5 217# CR：23 2011 Tin 2010 Bright Pearl School, Chun SR：12 Primary School Shek Estate Area 29A, Sha Tin, New Territories 39 Sha 2009- The Church of Sha Kok Estate, 4 006# CR：23 2011 Tin 2010 Christ in China Sha Tin, New SR：13 Kei Kok Territories Primary School 40 Sha 2009- Lok Sin Tong Jat Min Chuen, 3 000# CR：24 2009 Tin 2010 Chan Cho Sha Tin, New SR：12 Chak Primary Territories School 41 Sha 2009- Five Districts 2 On Shing 5 484 CR：30 2013 Tin 2010 Business Street, Ma On SR：10 Welfare Shan, Sha Tin, Association New Territories Mrs Fung Ping Shan Primary School 42 Yau 2010- Sheng Kung 11 Pak Po Street, 1 100 CR：9 2010 Tsim 2011 Hui All Saints' Mong Kok, SR：1 Mong Primary School Kowloon 4354 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Year in which School the school Year in Site area Facilities premises was which the of school (No. of Detailed school re-deployed/ No. District school School name premises CR and address re-allocated ceased (square special for further operation metre)(1) room educational (SR)) uses 43 Tuen 2010- Buddhist Lau Estate School 3 433# CR：23 2012 Mun 2011 Tin Sang No. 3, Tai Hing SR：9 Primary School Estate Phase 1, Tuen Mun, New Territories 44 Eastern 2011- Tung Wah Estate Primary 4 231# CR：24 2011 2012 Group of School, Siu Sai SR：7 Hospitals Lee Wan Estate Chi Hung Phase II, Chai Memorial Wan Primary School (Chai Wan) 45 Kowloon 2012- New Method 25 Man Fuk 2 270 CR：30 2012 City 2013 College* Road, Kowloon SR：15
Notes:
(1) The site area of school premises is in general a rough estimate based on records available to the Education Bureau and the figures are for reference only. Information on area of those school premises standing on public housing estates of the Hong Kong Housing Authority/Housing Society refers to internal floor area of the premises and is marked with (#) in the tables above.
(2) Respective school premises have been re-allocated for further educational uses prior to cessation of school operation.
(Secondary schools are denoted with *)
Table (2) Information on 11 Vacant School Premises Earmarked for Further Educational Uses (Position as at end August 2013)
Year in Site area School which the of school Detailed school Facilities Earmarked No. District school School name premises address (No. of CR Use ceased (square and SR) operation metre)Note 1 Sham 2007- Sam Shui Natives 19 Wai Chi 1 150 CR：12 Other Shui Po 2008 Association Tong Street, Kowloon SR：5 education Yun Kai School Use LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4355
Year in Site area School which the of school Detailed school Facilities Earmarked No. District school School name premises address (No. of CR Use ceased (square and SR) operation metre)Note 2 Kwun 2008- Grantham College Estate Primary 3 232# CR：23 School Use Tong 2009 of Education Past School No. 1, SR：7 Students' Shun On Estate, Association Kwun Kwun Tong, Tong Primary Kowloon School 3 Eastern 2009- TWGHs & Estate School 3 540# CR：20 Decanting 2010 LKWFS Mrs Fung No. 1, Yue Wan SR：7 Use Yiu Hing Estate, Chai Memorial Primary Wan, Hong School Kong 4 Eastern 2010- Chai Wan Star of Estate School 3 054# CR：24 Decanting 2011 The Sea Catholic No. 2, Hing SR：8 Use Primary School Wah Estate (Stage II), Chai Wan, Hong Kong 5 Tseun 2010- Tsuen Wan Cheung Shan 3 584# CR：24 School Use Wan 2011 Lutheran School Estate, Tsuen SR：8 Wan, New Territories 6 Tuen 2010- The Salvation Estate Primary 3 336# CR：23 School Use Mun 2011 Army Sam Shing School, Sam SR：10 Chuen Lau Ng Shing Estate, Ying School Tuen Mun, New Territories 7 Southern 2011- St. Teresa's School G/F and New 1 951 CR：6 Other 2012 Annex, 1 Tung SR：2 education Tau Wan Road, Use Stanley, Hong Kong 8 Tai Po 2011- Buddhist Tai 178 Kam Shan, 3 117 CR：29 Other 2012 Kwong Middle Tai Po, New SR：11 education School* Territories Use 9 Yuen 2012- The Church of Estate Primary 3 050# CR：30 School Use Long 2013 Christ in China School, Tin Yiu SR：14 Fong Yun Wah Estate Phase II, Primary School Tin Shui Wai, New Territories 4356 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Year in Site area School which the of school Detailed school Facilities Earmarked No. District school School name premises address (No. of CR Use ceased (square and SR) operation metre)Note 10 Tai Po 2012- Buddhist Hui 6 Ma Chung 5 770 CR：29 School Use 2013 Yuan College Road, Tai Po, SR：22 (Sponsored by New Territories Hong Kong Buddhist Sangha Association)* 11 Sha Tin 2012- Sung Lan Middle Mei Lam 2 450# CR：28 School Use 2013 School* Estate, Sha Tin, SR：13 New Territories
Note:
The site area of school premises is in general a rough estimate based on records available to the Education Bureau and the figures are for reference only. Information on area of those school premises standing on public housing estates of the Hong Kong Housing Authority/Housing Society refers to internal floor area of the premises and is marked with (#) in the tables above.
(Secondary schools are denoted with *)
Table (3) Information on 50 Vacant School Premises Returned(1) to the Government for Disposal (Position as at end August 2013)
School Year in Site Area of Facilities Government which the School (No. of departments/ School Detailed School No. District school Premises classroom Parties Name Address ceased (square (CR) and managing the operation metre)(2) special premises(3) room (SR)) 1 North 2004- Lung Kai Ma Cho Lung 2 647 CR：3 Lands 2005 Public Village, Department@ School Sheung Shui, New Territories 2 Sai 2004- Leung Leung Shuen 1 913 CR：2 Lands Kung 2005 Shuen Bay Bay, Sai Kung, Department@ School New Territories LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4357
School Year in Site Area of Facilities Government which the School (No. of departments/ School Detailed School No. District school Premises classroom Parties Name Address ceased (square (CR) and managing the operation metre)(2) special premises(3) room (SR)) 3 Tai Po 2004- Lam Tsuen Lam Tsuen, Tai 1 315 CR：6 Partly private 2005 Public Po, New land owner, School Territories partly the Lands Department # (let out for use as a public open square) 4 Tai Po 2004- Tai Hang Chung Sum 1 663 CR：4 Private land 2005 Public Wai, Char owner School Hang, Tai Po, New Territories 5 Tai Po 2004- Yuk Yin Kau Lung 1 411 CR：5 Partly private 2005 School (Tai Hang Village, land owner, Po) Tai Po, New partly the Territories Lands Department@ 6 Islands 2005- Lo So Shing Lo So Shing 706 CR：2 Lands 2006 School Village, Department@ Lamma Island, New Territories 7 North 2005- Lo Wu Lo Wu Village, 2 200 CR：4 Possession 2006 Public Ta Ku Ling, with the School New Territories Education Bureau pending handover of the premises to the new user once identified by the Lands Department@ 4358 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
School Year in Site Area of Facilities Government which the School (No. of departments/ School Detailed School No. District school Premises classroom Parties Name Address ceased (square (CR) and managing the operation metre)(2) special premises(3) room (SR)) 8 North 2005- Sheung Shui Ng Uk Village, 5 932 CR：7 Lands 2006 Shek Wu Sheung Shui, SR：1 Department Hui New Territories # (allocated to Fertilizers & the Food and Rice Dealers Health Association Bureau for Public health centre Schoo l and/or out-patient clinic use) 9 Tuen 2005- Tai Lam 16 Miles Castle 1 854 CR：6 Lands Mun 2006 Chung Peak Road, Department@ Public New Territories School 10 Yuen 2005- Ng Wo Tai Wai 1 102 CR：6 Partly private Long 2006 Public Village, Shap land owner, Primary Pat Heung, partly the School Yuen Long, Lands New Territories Department # (let out for community and recreation centre use) 11 Yuen 2005- Ha Tsuen Ha Tsuen 1 600 CR：3 Lands Long 2006 Heung Pak Heung, Pak Department@ Nai Public Nai, New School Territories 12 Yuen 2005- Chi Ching Fraser Village, 370 CR：3 Lands Long 2006 School Tai Tong Road, Department New Territories # (let out for temporary club and office use) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4359
School Year in Site Area of Facilities Government which the School (No. of departments/ School Detailed School No. District school Premises classroom Parties Name Address ceased (square (CR) and managing the operation metre)(2) special premises(3) room (SR)) 13 Islands 2006- Peng Chau 9 Chi Yan 1 752 CR：5 Southern Part 2007 Chi Yan Lane, Peng (Northern Part) SR：1 private land Public Chau, New 1 681 owner, School Territories (Southern Part) Northern Part the Lands Department@ 14 Kwai 2006- The Hong Estate School 5 172 CR：24 Housing Tsing 2007 Kong Sze No. 1, Cheung SR：7 Department Yap Ching Estate, Commercial Tsing Yi, New & Industrial Territories Association Chan Lai So Chun Memorial School 15 Kwai 2006- Hong Kong Estate School 2 460# CR：22 Housing Tsing 2007 Cheung Shi No. 3, Cheung SR：3 Department Clansmen's Ching Estate, Association Tsing Yi, New Cheung Chi Territories Cheong Memorial Primary School 16 North 2006- Ku Tung Ku Tung, Ho 4 146 CR：8 Private land 2007 Public Oi Sheung Heung SR：2 owner Wah School Road, Sheung Shui, New Territories 17 North 2006- Kwan Ah Tam Shui Hang 878 CR：5 Lands 2007 School Village, Sha Department@ Tau Kok, New Territories 4360 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
School Year in Site Area of Facilities Government which the School (No. of departments/ School Detailed School No. District school Premises classroom Parties Name Address ceased (square (CR) and managing the operation metre)(2) special premises(3) room (SR)) 18 North 2006- Ping Yeung Ping Yeung 16 138 CR：8 Lands 2007 Public Village, Ta Ku SR：2 Department@ School Ling, New Territories 19 North 2006- Sam Wo Tsung Chai 2 471 CR：6 Lands 2007 Public Ling, Muk Wu Department@ School Tsuen, Ta Ku Ling, New Territories 20 North 2006- Wah Shan Wah Shan 13 585 CR：6 Lands 2007 Public Village, Department@ School Sheung Shui, New Territories 21 Tai Po 2006- Confucian Tai Yuen 4 140 CR：24 Housing 2007 Sam Lok Estate, Tai Po, SR：6 Department Chow Mud New Territories Wai School 22 Tuen 2006- Kiu Saw Chung Uk 2 427 CR：9 Partly private Mun 2007 Public Tsuen, Tuen SR：2 land owner, School Mun, New partly the Territories Lands Department@ 23 Tuen 2006- Lam Tei 21.5 Milestone, 3 173 CR：5 Partly private Mun 2007 Gospel Lam Tei, Tuen SR：4 land owner, School Mun, New partly the Territories Lands Department@ 24 Tuen 2006- Tuen Mun 254 Tuen Tse 4 458 CR：8 Lands Mun 2007 School Wai, Tuen SR：1 Department@ Mun, New Territories 25 Yuen 2006- Koon Ying Mai Po Village, 969 CR：5 Lands Long 2007 School San Tin, Yuen Department@ Long, New Territories LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4361
School Year in Site Area of Facilities Government which the School (No. of departments/ School Detailed School No. District school Premises classroom Parties Name Address ceased (square (CR) and managing the operation metre)(2) special premises(3) room (SR)) 26 Yuen 2006- Wang Chau Wang Chau 1 536 CR：6 Private land Long 2007 Public Village, Yuen owner Primary Long, New School Territories 27 Yuen 2006- Wing On Tai Shu Ha 3 566 CR：10 Lands Long 2007 School West Road, SR：1 Department@ Yuen Long, New Territories 28 Yuen 2006- Shung Shung Ching 6 297 CR：7 Partly private Long 2007 Ching San Tsuen, SR：4 land owner, School Yuen Long, partly the New Territories Lands Department@ 29 Yuen 2006- Shung Tak Nam Pin Wai, 410 CR：5 Private land Long 2007 Catholic Yuen Long, SR：1 owner Primary New Territories School 30 Yuen 2006- Wa Fung Lam Hau Ling, 3 067 CR：5 Lands Long 2007 School Yuen Long, SR：3 Department@ New Territories 31 Yuen 2006- Yau Tam Yau Tam Mei 2 720 CR：6 Lands Long 2007 Mei Primary Village, Yuen SR：2 Department@ School Long, New Territories 32 Yuen 2006- Yuen Long Small Traders 419 CR：6 Possession Long 2007 Small New Village, SR：1 with the Traders DD 115, Yuen Education New Village Long, New Bureau Public Territories pending School handover of the premises to the new user once identified by the Lands Department@ 4362 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
School Year in Site Area of Facilities Government which the School (No. of departments/ School Detailed School No. District school Premises classroom Parties Name Address ceased (square (CR) and managing the operation metre)(2) special premises(3) room (SR)) 33 Islands 2007- NTHYK 18 Mui Wo 6 950 CR：23 Possession 2008 Southern Ferry Pier SR：11 with the District Road, Lantau Education Secondary Island, New Bureau School* Territories pending handover of the premises to the new user once identified by the Lands Department@ 34 North 2007- Tsung Him Shung Him 7 768 CR：12 Private land 2008 School Tong Village, SR：2 owner Fanling, New Territories 35 Sai 2007- Sai Kung Ho Chung, Sai 3 897 CR：12 Government Kung 2008 Central Kung, New SR：6 Property Primary Territories Agency School (The building is fully occupied by various departments for temporary uses, and a government department is applying to take over the site for its long-term proposal.) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4363
School Year in Site Area of Facilities Government which the School (No. of departments/ School Detailed School No. District school Premises classroom Parties Name Address ceased (square (CR) and managing the operation metre)(2) special premises(3) room (SR)) 36 Tai Po 2007- Sung Tak 9-11, Shung 386 CR：9 Lands 2008 School Tak Street Tai SR：6 Department Po, Tai Po # (allocated to Market, New the Housing Territories Department for temporary reprovisioning of a Rural Committee Office) 37 Tsuen 2007- Kwai Chung 570 Castle 7 970 CR：8 Lands Wan 2008 Public Peak Road, SR：4 Department@ School Kwai Chung, New Territories 38 Yuen 2007- Hoi Ming Fung Hing Li 1 959 CR：4 Private land Long 2008 School (San Wai), SR：3 owner Yuen Long, New Territories 39 Yuen 2007- Wai Kwan Tong Yan San 3 766 CR：7 Partly private Long 2008 Primary Tsuen, Ping SR：5 land owner, School Shan, Yuen partly the Long, New Lands Territories Department@ 40 Yuen 2007- Ying Yin Tan Kwai 3 091 CR：7 Lands Long 2008 Catholic Tsuen, Hung SR：2 Department@ Primary Shui Kiu, Yuen School Long, New Territories 41 Kwai 2008- Tsing Yi Estate Primary 2 361 CR：23 Housing Tsing 2009 Public School No. 3, SR：6 Department School Cheung Hong (The premises (Cheung Estate Area 4, has already Hong) Tsing Yi, New been leased to Territories the Occupational Safety and Health Council) 4364 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
School Year in Site Area of Facilities Government which the School (No. of departments/ School Detailed School No. District school Premises classroom Parties Name Address ceased (square (CR) and managing the operation metre)(2) special premises(3) room (SR)) 42 Kwun 2008- Hoi Bun 45 Hoi Pong 390 CR：6 Lands Tong 2009 School Road Central, Department Lei Yue Mun, # (allocated to Kowloon the Home Affairs Department for community uses) 43 North 2008- King Sau Lin Ma Hang, 878 CR：6 Lands 2009 School Ta Ku Ling, SR：1 Department@ New Territories 44 Wong 2008- Chi Tak 9 Tung Lung 2 007 CR：11 Private land Tai Sin 2009 Public Road, Kowloon SR：3 owner School City, Kowloon 45 Yuen 2008- Luen Tai Tong Road, 3 343 CR：8 Lands Long 2009 Kwong Yuen Long, SR：5 Department Public New Territories # (let out for School use as an activity centre) 46 Yuen 2008- Yuen Kong Yuen Kong 1 499 CR：6 Lands Long 2009 Public Tsuen, Pat SR：1 Department@ School Heung, Yuen Long, New Territories 47 Islands 2009- Cheung Tung Wan 947 CR：7 Private land 2010 Chau Road, Cheung SR：2 owner Fisheries Chau, New Joint Territories Association Public School LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4365
School Year in Site Area of Facilities Government which the School (No. of departments/ School Detailed School No. District school Premises classroom Parties Name Address ceased (square (CR) and managing the operation metre)(2) special premises(3) room (SR)) 48 Sha 2009- Sir Ellis Area 92 Yiu On 6 132 CR：23 Housing Tin 2010 Kadoorie Estate, Ma On SR：11 Department Secondary Shan, Sha Tin, (The premises School New Territories has already (Shatin)* been leased to the Vocational Training Council) 49 Tai Po 2010- The Church Fu Shin Estate, 3 050 CR：29 Housing 2011 of Christ in Tai Po, New SR：7 Department China Kei Territories Ching Primary School 50 Wong 2010- S.K.H. Kei Fu Shan Estate, 3 600 CR：24 Housing Tai Sin 2011 Sum Po Kong SR：4 Department Primary Village Road, School Kowloon
Notes:
(1) Return of the vacant school premises means that the Education Bureau has decided that the vacant school premises are not suitable for further school or other educational uses and has informed the PlanD and other relevant departments to consider alternative uses in accordance with the prevailing applicable arrangement. Some school premises remain in possession of the private lot owners. Some school premises have been re-allocated for alternative uses after cessation of school operation.
(2) Information on the site area is provided by the PlanD/Hong Kong Housing Authority/Housing Society after reviewing information on related sites. Information on area of those school premises standing on public housing estates of the Hong Kong Housing Authority/Housing Society refers to internal floor area of the premises and is marked with (#) in the tables above.
(3) Relevant information is updated to the position as in March 2013.
@ School premises under consideration/application or available for other uses as at the above temporal position.
# School premises let out to non-profit-making organizations or allocated to other bureau/department for other uses by the Lands Department as at the above temporal position.
(Secondary schools are denoted with *)
4366 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Problem of Youth Gangs and Young Night Drifters in Tseung Kwan O District
17. DR ELIZABETH QUAT (in Chinese): President, a group of Primary Six students from the Tseung Kwan O (TKO) District have recently told me that in the district, there is a serious problem of youth gangs and young night drifters (YNDs), who are suspected of being involved in triad and drug trafficking activities. The students are worried that the problem has remained unresolved for a prolong period of time due to inadequate police manpower in the district. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the authorities have assessed the activities of youth gangs and YNDs in the TKO District, including whether the police have collected intelligence on triad and drug trafficking activities involving youth gangs; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(b) as the police have planned to upgrade the TKO Police Division to a Police District in 2015, whether the authorities have taken any measure to strengthen, before the upgrade, the police manpower so as to improve the law and order in the district; if they have, of the details of such measures and the implementation timetable; if not, the reasons for that;
(c) as there is a comment that the inadequacy of youth facilities in the TKO District at night time has resulted in youngsters wandering the streets in the middle of the night, whether the authorities will open up more government facilities at night time for use by youngsters to avoid them from being touted on the streets by lawbreakers for carrying out illegal activities; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(d) whether the authorities will allocate additional resources to those agencies offering extended services for YNDs at present, so that such agencies can provide further assistance to these youths in the district; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(e) whether the authorities have other means or plans to tackle the problem of youth gangs and YNDs in the TKO District; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4367
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): President, the police have been monitoring the youth crime situation and different measures have been taken to address the problem. In consultation with the relevant Policy Bureaux, we hereby provide the following reply in respect of the youth crime problem in the TKO District and the support measures for the youths in the district:
(a) In the past three years, there was a downward trend in the number of youths under the age of 21 arrested by the police for criminal offences in the TKO District. Between 2010 and 2012, there were 443, 441 and 335 youths under the age of 21 arrested by the police in the district, who were mainly involved in wounding and serious assault, miscellaneous theft and shop theft, and so on. Among them, 24, 12 and 10 were arrested for committing serious drug offences; 100, 118 and 101 were arrested for involving in triad offences. From January to September this year, there were 174 youths under the age of 21 arrested for criminal offences, a fall of 34.1% as compared with 264 people in the corresponding period of last year. Among them, 12 were involved in serious drug offences, as compared with eight in the corresponding period of last year; 49 were involved in triad offences, a drop of 43.7% as compared with 87 people in the corresponding period of last year. As to the problem of "youth gangs", the police attach great importance to youth crimes committed by an individual or by a group and spare no effort in fighting against such crimes.
The police have been keeping a close watch on the latest crime situation in the TKO District. In May 2011, a special duty squad under the District Anti-Triad Squad was set up for the strengthening of intelligence collection and for the early identification and combat of juvenile delinquency in the district. The police will continue to carry out anti-crime operations against youth crime in the district, and strengthen publicity and education efforts.
(b) Having regard to the views of local residents and organizations, population growth and community development of the TKO District, the police are proactively re-planning and redistributing police manpower and supporting facilities in the Kowloon East (KE) Region. A plan has also been made to upgrade the TKO Division to a Police District in 2015.
4368 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Prior to the upgrading of the TKO Police Division to a Police District, the law and order in TKO is maintained by the TKO Division under the Kwun Tong Police District of the KE Region. In view of the rapid development of the TKO District, the establishment of the TKO Division has increased from 219 to 334 since 2002, including an addition of 20 front-line officers to its Task Force in August 2012 and 39 police officers in June 2013. In addition to the local resources allocated to the TKO Division, the establishment of the KE Region has a total of over 3 600 officers. Where necessary, the police will meet the operational needs of the Division through internal resource deployment. The overall enforcement capability of the police in TKO and other districts will not be constrained by the administrative boundaries of the police districts.
(c) and (d)
The Government is very concerned about the development needs of young people. The Social Welfare Department (SWD) has been adopting the strategies of early identification and intervention, timely support, cross-sector and inter-departmental collaboration in providing a wide range of preventive and supportive services through subvented non-governmental organizations (NGOs) to support young people in their healthy development. Such services include Youth Outreaching Social Work Teams (YOTs), Integrated Children and Youth Services Centres (ICYSCs), School Social Work Service, Community Support Service Scheme and Counselling Centres for Psychotropic Substance Abusers (CCPSAs).
To strengthen support for youths at risk, particularly youth gangs and YNDs, the SWD has since October 2008 made available one additional social worker for each of the 16 YOTs and 18 teams of Overnight Outreaching Service for Young Night Drifters (YND teams) over the territory to enhance timely intervention and counselling service. In December 2010, the SWD allocated additional resources to provide one more social worker to each of the 16 YOTs. The SWD has apportioned more resources to districts which have greater service demand, including the YND team in TKO. To address service needs for young people, the SWD has LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4369
since January 2013 further allocated more resources to set up three new YOTs, one each in TKO, Ma On Shan and Tung Chung. Outreaching social workers reach out to youths at risk in the districts from 10 am to 6 am on the next day, provide timely counselling and facilitate their access to various kinds of mainstream services.
To meet the needs of youths at risk who are psychotropic substance abusers, the SWD has also allocated additional resources to CCPSAs to strengthen counselling service and assistance to such youths. The number of CCPSAs has increased from five to 11 to provide services over the territory. Among them, the Rainbow Lutheran Centre of Hong Kong Lutheran Social Services, established in October 2010 to mainly serve Wong Tai Sin, Sai Kung and TKO, provides services, including outreaching services, to youths at risk who are psychotropic substance abusers.
At present, there are seven ICYSCs and one Children and Youth Centre providing services to children and young persons in TKO. At the district level, the District Social Welfare Offices (DSWOs) of the SWD have been working actively with the District Councils, other government departments and community stakeholders to pool together community resources and efforts to provide appropriate services to youths in need. Regarding night facilities, the DSWOs and the Leisure and Cultural Services Department (LCSD) have, taking into account the need of YNDs in individual districts, opened up the LCSD's sports venue facilities, including the Tseung Kwan O Sports Centre, at night since 2002 for YND teams to organize activities for young people.
Through the existing platform of the Local Committee on Services for Young People, the DSWOs will continue to co-ordinate the work of district youth services units by mobilizing them to make the best use of district resources and, in conjunction with resident associations, organize different forms of activities for vulnerable young people and those who are at risk, to assist them to stay away from youth gangs and crime.
(e) Regarding the problem of youth crime in the TKO District, the police, in addition to stepping up law enforcement, have been 4370 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
making efforts in publicity and education by organizing youth education programmes in collaboration with the District Councils, District Fight Crime Committees, schools, NGOs, the SWD and the Education Bureau. Regarding the school sector, efforts have been made by the police to strengthen education on the prevention of youth crime via School Liaison Officers. The "Green Jumper" Project has been launched since 2011. Through ball games and sharing sessions, front-line police ambassadors are assigned to visit secondary schools in relevant districts in a bid to drive home the message of staying away from crime. At the same time, the TKO Division has been launching the "Drug Free for Everyone Project" in collaboration with Sai Kung District Fight Crime Committee and Rainbow Lutheran Centre since 2008, holding anti-drug seminars and competitions in schools in the district to raise youth awareness of the harmful effects of drug abuse. On another front, the police vigorously promote the activities of the Junior Police Call to instil anti-crime awareness and positive values in its members.
The SWD will closely monitor the needs of youths at risk, in particular youth gangs and YNDs, and timely review the demand for services. Taking into account the characteristics and service needs of their respective districts, the DSWOs will collaborate with relevant youth services units and stakeholders to provide young people with diversified and appropriate services, and support them to grow in a healthy manner.
Measures to Deal with Temporary Decline in Secondary One Student Population
18. DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Chinese): President, according to the 2012 Hong Kong Population Projections released by the Census and Statistics Department, the Education Bureau anticipates a continuous decline in the annual intake of Secondary One (S1) students from 64 900 in the 2012-2013 school year to 54 000 in the 2016-2017 school year, and then the number will rebound steadily and annually from the 2017-2018 school year onwards, surpassing the level of this school year. Last year, the Education Bureau proposed a progressive reduction of the number of students allocated to each S1 class under the "2-1-1" and "1-1-1" options (that is, the number of students allocated to each S1 class will be LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4371 reduced by two, one and one progressively or by one student each year in three school years) as an interim measure to address the problem. Yet, the education sector is very concerned about how the authorities will ensure the teaching quality of secondary schools in the long run. Some members of the education sector have pointed out that as the plunge in the number of S1 students and the imminent implementation of "reduction of classes" and "closure of schools" have sapped the morale of quite a number of teachers and deterred aspiring graduates from joining the teaching profession, the authorities have to introduce measures to enable secondary schools to maintain stability and have sustainable development. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the annual supply of S1 places from the 2014-2015 to 2018-2019 school years in various District Council (DC) districts;
(b) whether it has assessed the annual demand for secondary school places in various DC districts in the next five school years; if it has, of the figures; if not, the reasons for that;
(c) as some members of the education sector have pointed out that certain secondary schools currently operate only one S1 class while some others have only a dozen or so students studying at S1 level, whether the authorities have assessed the number of secondary schools which will encounter such situations in the next five school years and the impact of such situations on teaching quality; if they have, of the numbers of such schools and the relevant impact; if not, the reasons for that;
(d) given the varied decline rate of S1 students in various DC districts in the next several years, whether the Education Bureau has assessed which districts will face an imbalance of supply and demand of S1 places; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(e) of the detailed reasons for the Education Bureau proposing the "2-1-1" and "1-1-1" options for the reduction of the number of students allocated to each S1 class instead of adopting the "3-2-1" option (that is, the number of students allocated to each S1 class will be reduced by three, two and one progressively in three school years) put forth by the education sector; whether the authorities 4372 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
have assessed the pros and cons of the aforesaid three proposals; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(f) whether the Education Bureau will further reduce the number of S1 students per class for those DC districts with a higher decline rate of S1 students; if it will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(g) as the Secretary for Education said in 2012 that it would hold discussions with stakeholders again if the reduction of the number of students per class under the "2-1-1" and "1-1-1" options was considered not sufficiently effective, whether the Education Bureau will review the effectiveness of the reduction of the number of students per class in individual DC districts; if it will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(h) given the sharp increase in the number of cross-boundary students in recent years, causing keen competition for kindergarten and primary school places in certain districts, whether the Education Bureau has assessed if a similar situation will emerge in S1 classes; if it has, of the authorities' measures to address such situation; if not, the reasons for that;
(i) given that the education sector has proposed that a certain number of S1 places should be reserved for students from other schools, efforts should be stepped up to further reduce the number of students allocated to each S1 class by one student across the board, and consideration should be given to allowing those districts with an over-supply of S1 places to adopt a district-based approach to reduce the number of students per class, whether the Education Bureau has carefully considered the feasibility of the aforesaid proposals; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(j) whether the Education Bureau will meet with members and organizations of the education sector before the end of this year to have in-depth communication on and to explore solutions for issues concerning the reduction of the number of classes and the number of students allocated to each S1 class; if it will, of the schedule of such meetings; if not, the reasons for that;
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(k) given that last year the Education Bureau proposed measures for "preserving our schools, the teaching force and the strengths of our education sector" ("three-fold preservation policy") so as to stabilize the teaching force and preserve the strength of the sector, whether the authorities have assessed the pros and cons of those measures and their impact on education development and teaching quality; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(l) given that the "three-fold preservation policy" will be implemented for three years only, whether the Education Bureau has formulated corresponding plans to deal with the continuous decline or reversal of the decline in the number of S1 students;
(m) whether it has assessed the number of new teachers in secondary schools in each of the next five school years; if it has, of the figures; if not, the reasons for that;
(n) notwithstanding that the retention period for surplus secondary school teachers has been extended from one year to three years so that some serving teachers can retain their teaching posts in the short term, whether the authorities have assessed if the reduction of classes will affect the morale of serving teachers and hinder new teachers from joining their ranks; if they have, of the details and the specific measures for attracting new teachers to join the profession; if not, the reasons for that; and
(o) of the specific blueprint for development drawn up by the Education Bureau in respect of its policy on secondary schools to ensure that the quality of education will not be affected by the fluctuations in secondary school student population and issues such as reduction of classes and closure of schools?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Chinese): President, to alleviate the impact of the temporary decline in S1 student population in the next few years on public sector secondary schools, the Education Bureau announced last year (2012) a series of targeted relief measures aiming at maintaining the stability and 4374 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 strengths of the schools as well as teaching force. Among the relief measures(1) is the progressive reduction of the number of students allocated per S1 class under the "2-1-1"/"1-1-1" scenario in which the number of students allocated to each S1 class in public sector secondary schools will be reduced accordingly on a year-on-year basis from 2013 to 2015 under the Secondary School Place Allocation (SSPA) System. We reported to the Panel on Education of the Legislative Council on 9 July 2013 the overall situation of public sector secondary schools under the relief measures (including the reduction of the number of students allocated per S1 class) upon the release of the SSPA 2013 allocation results(2).
My reply to Dr LAM's question is as follows:
(a) The estimated supply of S1 places from 2014 to 2018 is at Annex 1.
(b) The projected school-age population aged 12 is considered appropriate for admission to S1. Reference of the projected demand for S1 places by district in the next five school years (2014-2015 to 2018-2019) can be made to the projected school-age population aged 12. Please see Annex 2 for details.
(1) The relief measures include:
― relaxing the "not less than three S1 classes" requirement;
― on the basis of the relaxation of the criterion for approving S1 classes to 25 students per class, allowing secondary schools to operate two S1 classes with a minimum intake of 26 students, that is, 13 students per class on average;
― allowing schools operating only one S1 class to continue operation through various school development options;
― allowing schools operating two S1 classes or less to participate in the following SSPA cycle with a cap of three S1 classes;
― extending the retention period for surplus teachers arising from any packing of S1 classes from one year to three years; and
― adopting a district-/school-based approach to adjust the number of students allocated to each S1 class from SSPA 2013 to SSPA 2015 to cater for the differences among districts and schools as well as the demand and supply of different districts.
(2) For details, please refer to the paper "Secondary School Places Allocation System 2013 ― Overall Situation of Public Sector Secondary Schools upon Release of Allocation Results" (LC Paper No CB(4)888/12-13(01)). LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4375
(c) In the first year (2013-2014 school year) of the implementation of the relief measures, the number of S1 classes to be reduced in public sector schools is 302 upon the release of allocation results. However, some students as usual applied for S1 admission to individual schools for various reasons during the summer holiday. In the 2013-2014 school year and based on the mid-September student headcount, only 12 public sector secondary schools have packed one S1 class each eventually (that is, reduction of a total of 12 classes). Besides, among the 388 public sector secondary schools participating in the SSPA, only one school continues to operate with one S1 class according to its development plan and is the only school with an intake of less than 25 students (which is the criterion for approving S1 classes mentioned below).
As the actual S1 intake of schools is subject to student movement during the summer holiday after the release of allocation results, no projection can realistically predict the number of schools admitting less than 25 S1 students and operating only one S1 class, not to mention having only 10-odd students at S1.
It is worth to note that the relief measures are specifically designed to facilitate the sustainability of those schools being affected by the decline in student population and stabilize their teaching force. These schools may make better deployment of their surplus teachers to enhance the professional capability of their teaching force, which will in turn bring about positive impact to the secondary education ecosystem and teaching quality. Besides, the objective of requiring schools with only one S1 class to submit a school development plan for continual operation is to ensure quality teaching.
(d) Based on past experiences, projections of districts with mismatch of supply and demand of S1 places leading to number of classes to be reduced cannot rely solely on the estimated decrease of S1 students in the districts concerned. Generally speaking, the impact of the temporary decline of S1 students on individual schools and districts varies due to a number of factors. Besides, as mentioned above, schools may admit students during the summer holiday and the actual impact arising from the decline in S1 student population on 4376 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
individual districts or schools cannot be fully realized until the mid-September student headcount of the school year.
(e) To cope with the anticipated transient decline in S1 student population from 2013 to 2015, we cannot, and should not, regard the progressive reduction of the number of students allocated per S1 class as the only relief measure, nor can we ignore the concerns of other stakeholders (for example, parents). The Education Bureau has implemented a series of targeted relief measures with a view to maintaining the stability and strengths of the schools as well as teaching force, and addressing the different concerns/needs of schools. When mapping out these relief measures, the Education Bureau has met with the sector and different stakeholders to seek their views. Only having considered and balanced views of different parties have we finalized details of the relief measures, including reduction of the number of students allocated per S1 class.
(f) and (g)
According to the September student headcount this school year, the relief measures have achieved the desired targets of maintaining the stability and strengths of the schools as well as teaching force.
Only 12 S1 classes (involving 12 schools) were reduced due to under-enrolment, which is far less than the projected over 100 classes by some stakeholders in the sector based on the supply and demand of S1 places by district. Under the relief measures, surplus regular teachers of the schools concerned will be retained for three school years and will not be laid off as a result of reduction of classes.
Besides, upon the relaxation of the "not less than three classes" requirement starting from the 2013-2014 school year, schools are allowed to continue operation with two S1 classes. With the relief measures, no new schools are required to apply for development options for continual operation this school year.
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We believe that the relief measures of progressive reduction of the number of students allocated per S1 class on a year-on-year basis and having 25 students as the criterion for approving S1 classes, coupled with retaining the surplus teachers for three years, have helped stabilize the school sector. We will continue to engage the sector to explore feasible options to cope with the challenges arising from the temporary decline in S1 student population encountered by some of the schools.
(h) Provision of public sector S1 places is planned on a territory-wide basis and has taken into account the actual number of existing students (including cross-boundary students) at primary levels. According to the current projections, even if the S1 student population rebounds a few years later, the provision of school places over the territory is adequate to meet the demand. It is worth to note that, upon the introduction of the progressive reduction of the number of students allocated per S1 class, public sector secondary schools have undertaken unconditionally to continue with the netting arrangements for the central allocation stage according to the prevailing principles and established practices to cope with the year-on-year changes in the demand and supply of S1 places in individual districts. In the event that the neighbouring districts cannot meet the demand for school places, more S1 students will be allocated to each class. In addition, schools have pledged that when the S1 student population rebounds, the number of students per S1 class will be progressively reverted to the level of 2012 (that is, 34 students per class). We will continue to monitor closely the changes in the demand and supply of school places by district and adopt timely measures where appropriate.
(i) At present, there are two repeater quotas in each S1 class. Some secondary school principals have proposed that schools, in the coming few years, should be required to reserve these places solely for their own repeaters rather than admitting students who have been allocated a S1 place in other schools. We are consulting stakeholders, including school sponsoring bodies and parents, on this proposal. We will take their views into consideration and address their concerns before pursuing further with the sector.
4378 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
We have considered the sector's proposals on further progressive reduction of the number of students allocated per S1 class. The sector generally appreciates that the number of S1 classes in individual public sector secondary schools would inevitably be affected by the decline in the S1 student population. When mapping out the relief measures, we have given due consideration to the estimated decrease in the number of S1 students during the period (2013 to 2015). As such, we will continue to implement the relief measures, including the progressive reduction of the number of students allocated per S1 class on a year-on-year basis by "2-1-1" and "1-1-1", in line with the consensus reached with the sector in the 2013-2014 school year. In other words, the number of students allocated per S1 class will be reduced by one student in the schools concerned in the 2014-2015 school year.
(j) and (k)
The Education Bureau has been maintaining dialogue with the sector on matters relating to the transient decline in S1 student population. The relief measures devised in the previous year for maintaining the stability and strengths of the schools as well as teaching force have realized the effect. With the relief measures in place, only 12 S1 classes were reduced due to under-enrolment in the 2013-2014 school year, which is far less than the projected over 100 classes by some stakeholders of the sector. To stabilize the teaching force, the period for retaining surplus regular teachers of the schools concerned has also been extended to three years. Schools with less than three S1 classes are allowed to participate in the following SSPA cycle with a cap of three S1 classes. As such, the relief measures have achieved the desired objectives.
We will continue to liaise closely with the sector and relevant organizations to exchange views through different platforms.
(l) According to the 2012 Hong Kong Population Projections released by the Census and Statistics Department, it is anticipated that the number of S1 students will rebound steadily and annually from the 2017-2018 school year onwards, surpassing the level of the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4379
2012-2013 school year. By then, schools having progressive reduction of the number of students allocated per S1 class are expected to gradually revert to the level of the 2012-2013 school year (that is, 34 students per class) to meet the demand from the increasing number of S1 students.
(m) We have all along taken into account the changes of student population in planning for the allocation of teacher education places with a view to balancing and stabilizing the supply and demand of teachers. Based on past experiences, there are on average more than a thousand secondary school teachers leaving the profession each year due to retirement or other personal reasons. A similar trend is anticipated in the coming five years. Each year, the 1 000-odd teaching vacancies arising from natural wastage are available for new teachers. As serving teachers of other schools and teachers who have already left the profession can also apply for the vacant teaching posts, we are not able to project the number of secondary school teachers newly joining the profession each year.
(n) The sector generally appreciates that the number of S1 classes of individual public sector secondary schools would inevitably be affected by the temporary decline in S1 student population. To address the transient decline in S1 student population in the coming few years, the Education Bureau has implemented a series of targeted relief measures since the 2013-2014 school year, including adopting the district-/school-based approach to reduce the number of students allocated per S1 class over three school years; relaxing the "not less than three classes" requirement for S1 level; allowing schools with one or two S1 classes to participate in the SSPA with a cap of three S1 classes; and extending the retention period to three years for surplus teachers arising from the reduction in the number of S1 classes. We hold the view that the aforesaid measures can help stabilize the schools and teaching force, as well as maintain the morale of serving teachers. As the number of surplus teachers reduces, the chance for new teachers to get employed would increase correspondingly in the application for teaching posts.
4380 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
(o) Our education system (including secondary school policy) aims to facilitate whole-person development of students. Students with different strengths and aptitudes are provided with appropriate learning opportunities and experiences so that they can become active, responsible and contributing members of society, the nation and the world. The basic education in Hong Kong is heading towards quality and equality. The Education Bureau will continue to support schools and teachers in enhancing teaching quality and learning outcomes. We are fully aware of the challenges to some schools amidst the transient decline in S1 student population and have implemented a series of relief measures to facilitate sustained development of schools and stabilize the teaching force. We trust that schools would be in a better position to re-focus their efforts on enhancing learning and teaching (including professional development of teachers) with a steady rebound of S1 student population.
Annex 1
Estimated Supply for Allocation of S1 Places from 2014 to 2018
District 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 Central and 1 450 1 400 1 400 1 400 1 400 Western Wan Chai 1 750 1 700 1 700 1 700 1 700 Eastern 3 850 3 700 3 700 3 700 3 700 Southern 1 700 1 600 1 600 1 600 1 600 Yau Tsim Mong 2 350 2 300 2 300 2 300 2 300 Sham Shui Po 2 950 2 900 2 900 2 900 2 900 Kowloon City 4 800 4 700 4 700 4 700 4 700 Wong Tai Sin 3 050 3 000 3 000 3 000 3 000 Kwun Tong 3 950 3 900 3 900 3 900 3 900 Kwai Tsing 3 900 3 800 3 800 3 800 3 800 Tsuen Wan 1 750 1 700 1 700 1 700 1 700 Tuen Mun 4 300 4 200 4 200 4 200 4 200 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4381
District 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 Yuen Long 4 800 4 700 4 700 4 700 4 700 North 2 600 2 500 2 500 2 500 2 500 Tai Po 2 200 2 100 2 100 2 100 2 100 Sha Tin 4 750 4 600 4 600 4 600 4 600 Sai Kung 2 700 2 600 2 600 2 600 2 600 Islands 950 900 900 900 900 Total 53 800 52 300 52 300 52 300 52 300
Notes:
(1) Apart from government, aided (including the mainstreamed skill opportunity schools and practical schools) and caput secondary schools, the figures also include all schools under the Direct Subsidy Scheme (based on the actual number of places taken up by these schools in the previous SSPA exercise).
(2) The figures for 2016 to 2018 are the basic supply of S1 places according to information available. Upon implementing the reduction of the number of students allocated per S1 class for 2013 to 2015, schools have undertaken to revert to the level of 2012 (that is, 34 students per class) when the S1 student population rebounds.
(3) The figures are rounded to the nearest 50. There may be a slight discrepancy between the sum of individual items and the respective totals due to rounding.
Annex 2
Projected School-age Population Aged 12 Residing in Hong Kong(1) by District For School Years from 2014-2015 to 2018-2019
District 2014-2015 2015-2016 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 Central and 1 600 1 600 1 500 1 500 1 600 Western Wan Chai 900 900 900 900 1 000 Eastern 3 500 3 500 3 300 3 400 3 700 Southern 1 900 1 900 1 700 1 800 1 900 Yau Tsim Mong 2 200 2 100 1 900 2 000 2 300 Sham Shui Po 2 900 2 800 2 800 2 800 3 200 Kowloon City 2 800 2 800 2 600 2 800 3 000 4382 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
District 2014-2015 2015-2016 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 Wong Tai Sin 2 800 2 800 2 700 2 700 2 800 Kwun Tong 4 800 4 900 4 900 5 000 5 100 Sai Kung 3 600 3 600 3 400 3 500 4 000 Sha Tin 4 300 4 400 4 300 4 700 5 000 Tai Po 1 800 1 800 1 800 1 900 2 100 North 2 300 2 300 2 200 2 300 2 500 Yuen Long 4 900 4 900 4 600 4 900 5 400 Tuen Mun 3 100 3 100 2 900 3 000 3 500 Tsuen Wan 2 400 2 300 2 100 2 300 2 600 Kwai Tsing 3 800 3 800 3 500 3 800 3 900 Islands 1 300 1 400 1 300 1 400 1 500 Total 51 200 50 900 48 400 50 800 55 200
Notes:
(1) In formulating education plans, the Education Bureau will not only take into account the school-age population residing in Hong Kong but also the actual number of existing students at various levels in public sector schools and the latest demographic changes (including the actual number of cross-boundary students).
(2) Children aged 12 are considered appropriate for admission to S1.
(3) The figures are the projected numbers of local children aged 12 residing in various districts in Hong Kong (that is, Hong Kong usual residents). The figures cannot be regarded as the projected numbers of students studying in the districts concerned in the light of the factors which are in play, including the distribution and demand of school places, parents' preference and the fact that both students under or over 12 years of age may also attend S1. The figures exclude cross-boundary students.
(4) The figures are compiled based on the 2011-based population projections released by the Census and Statistics Department in July 2012. The projections have taken into account a number of factors and assumptions. Any deviations of the assumptions from the actual situation may render the projected figures different from the actual figures. Amongst those assumptions, of particular relevance are those related to babies born in Hong Kong to Mainland women. However, the actual numbers of such babies who would settle in Hong Kong and their time of settlement are difficult to predict accurately.
(5) The figures refer to the position as at September of the respective school years.
(6) The figures are rounded to the nearest 50. There may be a slight discrepancy between the sum of individual items and the respective totals owing to rounding.
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Curbing Proliferation of Mikania Micrantha
19. MR ALBERT CHAN (in Chinese): President, in reply to my question in February 2012, the authorities indicated that they had adopted a number of measures to curb the proliferation of a climbing plant Mikania micrantha in rural areas. However, I have learnt that the proliferation of Mikania micrantha has seen signs of drastic deterioration this year, and quite a number of plants withered because they were strangled by Mikania micrantha. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the scope and total area of the proliferation of Mikania micrantha since 2012;
(b) of the new measures adopted by the authorities since 2012 to prevent Mikania micrantha from harming trees;
(c) as the authorities indicated in 2004 that the joint study carried out by the Agriculture, Fisheries and Conservation Department (AFCD) and the Guangdong Forestry Bureau on control of Mikania micrantha had been completed, resulting in the identification of a herbicide "Sulfometuron-methyl" which was effective in killing the weed, and AFCD had carried out the trials on the application of this herbicide and would closely monitor its performance over a longer period of time, of the effects of the application of this herbicide by AFCD; and the reasons for the continuous proliferation of Mikania micrantha after the application of this herbicide; and
(d) whether the authorities will formulate measures which are more effective in curbing the proliferation of Mikania micrantha; if they will, of the details of the measures; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT (in Chinese): President, on the different parts of the question raised by Mr CHAN, our reply is as follows:
(a) Mikania (Mikania micrantha) mainly grows on low-lying, moist areas with ample sunlight such as derelict fields, around villages, roadside, and woodland fringes. Currently, government departments have conducted regular inspections and vegetation 4384 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
maintenance work at sites under their management. Once Mikania is found, immediate weeding will be carried out to prevent its proliferation.
Last year (2012) government departments, including the AFCD, Leisure and Cultural Services Department, Water Supplies Department, Drainage Services Department and Lands Department cleared 4.3 hectares of land being affected by Mikania micrantha.
(b) and (d)
The best way to avoid the proliferation of Mikania is by adopting preventive measures. Government departments carry out inspections and maintenance work for the plants within their facilities and on slopes under their management, including monitoring the growth of Mikania. For instance, the AFCD regularly inspects country parks, special areas and sites of special scientific interest. Leisure and Cultural Services Department, Highways Department and Water Supplies Department will inspect parks, highways and waterworks facilities respectively. The departments concerned will remove Mikania promptly once it is found. Landowners and management agents of private housing estates should be responsible for the locations within their properties.
(c) Control of Mikania is also possible by chemical methods. However, the application of chemical control (including use of "Sulfometuron-methyl") should be conducted with care, and would not be suitable for sites near water sources, active agricultural land, residential areas and ecologically sensitive areas. The most appropriate control measures should be decided after considering specific site conditions.
According to the record of the AFCD, the total area affected by Mikania within country parks and special areas has not shown any increase in the past two years. Depending on specific site conditions, the AFCD will decide the most suitable measure of Mikania control, which may include physical and chemical control methods. Since the areas affected by Mikania could readily and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4385
effectively be treated by physical control, chemical control methods were not applied by the AFCD in the past two years.
Maintenance of Vehicular Flyovers and Footbridges
20. MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Chinese): President, earlier on, some residents of the Mid-levels on Hong Kong Island have relayed to me that due to a prolonged lack of maintenance, many vehicular flyovers and footbridges (bridges) in the district look dilapidated, and problems of water seepage and concrete spalling have even been found in them. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it currently maintains a list recording information on those bridges which have been in use for several decades throughout Hong Kong, including their maintenance conditions, the commissioning dates, designed lifespans and safety factors adopted at the design stage, and so on; if it does not, of the reasons for that;
(b) of a list of bridges having reached their designed lifespans;
(c) of the procedure for repair and maintenance currently in place to ensure that bridges having reached their designed lifespans can continue to be used safely; and
(d) whether any mechanism is currently in place to determine the demolition or reconstruction of bridges built in accordance with outdated design standards or excessively low safety factors; if such mechanism is not in place, of the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, our response to the various parts of Mr Frederick FUNG's question is set out below in the order which they are raised.
(a) The Government has all along attached great importance to the safety of flyovers and footbridges. The majority of public flyovers and footbridges in Hong Kong, about 2 000, are maintained by the Highways Department (HyD). Apart from carrying out regular 4386 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
inspection, maintenance and repair for the bridge structures, the HyD has also set up a database detailing information such as commissioning dates and design loadings, as well as records of inspection, maintenance and repair of these structures for effective monitoring of their structural condition and planning of maintenance works.
(b) The design life of a bridge is a conceptual parameter adopted in bridge design, which does not represent the actual service life of the bridge. At present, the design specification of the HyD stipulates a design life of 120 years for bridges, which is mainly used for assessing various loadings and environmental factors that a bridge should appropriately be designed for their encounter over its service life. As for the actual service life of a bridge, it depends mainly on the bridge's actual structural condition. Through regular inspections and timely maintenance and repair, we can maintain the bridges in good structural condition. Under such circumstance, the actual service life of a bridge may generally attain or even extend beyond its design life.
(c) Bridge structural inspections undertaken by the HyD are carried out by professionally qualified independent inspection consultants specialized in bridge inspection under the supervision of the HyD. Such inspections are mainly divided into the following four types:
(i) Six-monthly inspection
It mainly involves visual inspection of the condition of the deck facilities, main structures and ancillary components of a bridge to check if there is any noticeable damage requiring follow-up actions.
(ii) Biennial comprehensive inspection
It mainly involves a comprehensive check of the condition of the main structures and ancillary components of a bridge via close visual inspection. Detailed tests, such as those on concrete strength, are carried out as necessary to ascertain the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4387
current condition of the bridge and to collect relevant data for subsequent analysis and assessment of its structural condition.
(iii) Ten-yearly principal inspection
Principal inspections are carried out in phases by the HyD to check the main structures and ancillary components of bridges in use for over 30 years. In addition to close visual inspection, the inspection consultant also examines the hidden components of the bridge by removing the decorative cladding panels and covering materials. The principal inspection also covers certain detailed tests such as those on concrete carbonation, chloride content and adequacy of reinforcement cover, with a view to assessing the condition of the bridge. In general, the HyD does not need to close a bridge for such inspection and testing but may have to implement traffic diversion measures as necessary.
(iv) Special inspection
On top of the above three regular inspections, the HyD will conduct a special inspection for a bridge if particular problems are identified during inspections or it is found to have been affected by serious accidents such as fire, flooding or construction incidents nearby, so as to ascertain the loading capacity and structural condition of the bridge.
The HyD maintains a detailed record of the structural condition of all flyovers and footbridges which are under its maintenance purview. Any damage to the bridge structures, once identified, will be repaired immediately by the HyD. The HyD will also consolidate information including reports by bridge inspection consultants, relevant records of maintenance and repairs as well as level of utilization for subsequent analysis and assessment of the structural condition of individual bridges, in order to facilitate the planning of medium- and long-term maintenance works and formulating relevant maintenance and repair proposals for upkeeping the bridges in good condition for safe use by the public.
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(d) By means of the above regular inspections, maintenance and repair, the HyD ensures that public flyovers and footbridges are safe to use. Based on past records, no flyover or footbridge has been demolished and rebuilt due to variation of design standards or issues in relation to safety factors.
Impacts of Railway Construction Works on Residents in Ngau Tam Mei
21. DR KWOK KA-KI (in Chinese): President, according to a paper submitted by the Government to this Council in October this year on the construction of the Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL), the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) has commenced the boring works for the Ngau Tam Mei (NTM) section of the railway tunnels, and the structural works for the ventilation buildings located at Mai Po and NTM. It has been reported that earlier on, some NTM residents have found that, since the commencement of the XRL works, quite a number of cracks appeared on the steps and the floor of the corridors inside the buildings in which they live, and some exterior walls of their buildings even slanted outward. Moreover, the koi cultivators and farmers there have found that some of the wells in NTM area have dried up, which are allegedly caused by the ground water drawdown resulting from the pumping away of underground water during the excavation and tunneling works, and thus their livelihood has been seriously affected. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it knows the number of assessments made by the MTRCL since the commencement of the XRL works in respect of the impacts of such works on the underground water sources and the aboveground structures in NTM, and whether the MTRCL has made public such assessment reports; of the number of site inspections conducted so far by staff from the authorities and the MTRCL with regard to the aforesaid complaints by the residents;
(b) whether the authorities and the MTRCL have made any detailed assessment since the commencement of the XRL works in respect of the impacts of such works on the fish farming and agricultural industries in NTM; if they have, of the details and whether the assessment reports have been made public; if they have not made LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4389
such assessments, the reasons for that and whether the authorities and the MTRCL will do so as soon as possible;
(c) of the total number of complaints received so far by the authorities and the MTRCL from NTM residents in which the residents have alleged that the XRL works and related issues (such as traffic management, tidiness and cleanliness of works sites) have affected the underground water sources, building structures, residents' livelihood, and so on, in that area, as well as the main contents of such complaints and the follow-up actions taken;
(d) of the details of the rectification measures taken by the authorities and the MTRCL in response to the reduction in underground water sources caused by the XRL works, as well as the effectiveness of such measures; and
(e) whether the authorities and the MTRCL have any plans at present to provide compensations to NTM residents affected by the XRL works; if they have, of the progress in computing the amounts of compensation payments; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, my consolidated reply to the five parts of Dr KWOK Ka-ki's question is as follows:
The Government and the MTRCL have all along paid much attention to the construction impact of the Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong XRL to underground facilities and structural safety of nearby buildings. At the design stage, the MTRCL, which engaged a professional environment consultant, prepared an Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) report regarding the XRL works for submission to the Environmental Protection Department (EPD) in May 2009 in accordance with the Environmental Impact Assessment Ordinance (Cap. 499). The EIA report has analysed in detail various areas, including ecology, fishery, noise, landscape and visual impact, cultural heritage, water quality, land contamination, waste management and air quality. In particular, impact to the level of groundwater and wells and fish ponds in NTM has been evaluated. The report has concluded that with the adoption of good 4390 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 construction methods, the XRL project will only pose mild impact to the nearby environment.
The MTRCL has conducted public consultation according to the statutory procedures. This included public exhibition of the EIA report from 21 July to 19 August 2009 to gather public views. The relevant information was uploaded onto the websites of the MTRCL and EPD for public inspection. At the same time, the MTRCL informed the representatives and residents of Yau Tam Mei Tsuen (YTMT) via various channels that such information had been promulgated and uploaded to the Internet. The EIA report was approved in September 2009.
During construction, the MTRCL has put in place effective environmental monitoring and audit programme and notification system as required in the Environment Permit issued by the EPD to process environmental monitoring work for the XRL project. Timely mitigation measures have also been implemented under the existing mechanism to minimize the construction impact to the surroundings. Monitoring data has not shown any undesirable impact to the vicinity by the XRL works.
In response to the concerns of the local communities and villagers about the groundwater level of NTM, the MTRCL and its contractors have been closely monitoring the situation. To address their concerns, the MTRCL together with the representatives of San Tin Rural Committee (STRC), relevant district councillors and two representatives of YTMT jointly invited scholars from the Department of Civil Engineering of the University of Hong Kong (HKU) in mid-2012 to conduct an independent study on the changes in the groundwater level in NTM, with a view to examining the correlation between the construction of the XRL shaft in NTM and the changes in the groundwater level within the neighborhood.
In late September 2012, the two HKU professors briefed the MTRCL and local communities of the study report. The executive summary of the report was also distributed to the STRC representatives, district councillors and two YTMT representatives. The report concurred to the 60-m influence zone identified by the MTRCL, and suggested further enhancing the monitoring of the groundwater level within 300-m zone from the shaft and increasing recharge of groundwater for effective stabilization of the water level. The MTRCL and its contractors have implemented the recommendations proactively. Monitoring devices for the wells and groundwater level have increased from nine and 15 to 34 and 29 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4391 respectively. These monitoring points can properly keep watch over the changes in the groundwater level.
Regarding the impact on buildings on the ground, the MTRCL has set up a number of monitoring points at relevant buildings and locations near the XRL alignment to monitor the environmental impact, including noise and vibration, of the XRL works. The data so collected will be submitted to the government departments concerned for scrutiny to ensure compliance with the legislative requirements. According to the monitoring results, the data has not indicated any undesirable impact by the XRL project to the surroundings. The MTRCL will keep a close watch over the construction of its contractors and the impact on the vicinity by the works. Appropriate mitigation measures will be implemented for minimizing impact to the neighborhood.
So far, the MTRCL has received about 120 cases from YTMT residents involving wells, suspected building damage, streams and suspected impact to the water quality. In most cases, the loss adjuster has confirmed that there is no evidence suggesting any relation with the XRL project.
Twelve of the above cases involve wells and are confirmed to be related to the XRL project. The MTRCL has maintained close contact with the owners/occupiers concerned and is processing their damage claims according to the established procedures. The loss adjuster has met with the owners/occupiers individually to discuss specific follow-up arrangements. Arrangements with eight owners/occupiers have been agreed. The loss adjuster is following up on the remaining four cases by negotiating with the owners/occupiers.
Moreover, none of the suspected building damage cases amongst the above involves structural safety. Ten of them are mainly about cracks on the walls or floor. Preliminary investigation has revealed that the damage may be related to the XRL project. The MTRCL has maintained close contact with the owners/occupiers concerned and is processing their damage claims according to the established procedures. The loss adjuster has met with the owners/occupiers individually to discuss specific follow-up arrangements. Arrangements with five owners/occupiers have been agreed. The loss adjuster is following up on the remaining five cases by negotiating with the owners/occupiers concerned.
To protect privacy, specific details of the discussion will not be disclosed as personal particulars of owners/occupiers are involved.
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In addition, there are 19 cases that are pending for the assessment results from the loss adjuster or residents' replies for arranging site inspections.
In fact, the MTRCL has maintained close dialogue with the relevant rural committee, district councillors, YTMT representatives and local residents since June 2008. Through meetings with residents, site inspections and Community Liaison Group meetings, and so on, the MTRCL has followed up on the concerns of the local communities in a timely manner. Relevant information and updates on the works have been disseminated via the XRL dedicated website, 10 issues of the XRL newsletter and posting of notices. In addition, the representatives of the relevant government departments and the MTRCL have attended over 150 site inspections, visits and residents' meetings in response to the requests of YTMT residents, so as to have direct communication and dialogue with the local communities, explain to them matters related to the XRL works and listen to their views. At the same time, at the case conferences on 14 December 2012 and 22 November 2013 of the Legislative Council as well as the site visit on 4 February 2013, the Government and the MTRCL representatives briefed the Legislative Council Members of the XRL works in NTM and followed up on the concerns of local residents.
The Government will continue urging the MTRCL to monitor the groundwater level in NTM and situation of nearby buildings, and if necessary, implementing appropriate measures to ensure public safety and minimize the construction impact to residents in the vicinity.
Urban Ticketing System
22. MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Chinese): President, the Leisure and Cultural Services Department (LCSD) engages the Cityline (Hong Kong) Limited (Cityline) as the contractor to develop, operate and maintain the Urban Ticketing System (URBTIX) at the company's own cost. With 41 outlets and the provision of telephone and Internet booking as well as ticketing enquiry services, URBTIX is a major ticket sales channel for concerts and cultural and sports events in Hong Kong. Quite a number of members of the public have relayed to me that they intend to purchase tickets through the booking website (booking site) of the URBTIX, but the booking site very often merely displays the message that all Internet ticketing slots are being taken up by customers, and therefore the service LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4393 is not available. This situation has caused them great inconvenience. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the duration, service fee and service details of the service contract signed between the LCSD and the Cityline;
(b) whether it knows the daily average of the following in relation to the main webpage of the booking site in the past three years: (i) the page views, (ii) the number of unique visitors and (iii) the number of times error messages were displayed because the server was overloaded;
(c) whether it knows if the Cityline has calculated the maximum number of transactions that the Internet booking service can handle concurrently; if the Cityline has, of the number; whether the Cityline has investigated the reason why some members of the public often fail to purchase tickets through the booking site; if the Cityline has, whether it has reviewed the design of the ticketing system and made any improvement;
(d) whether the service contract signed between the LCSD and the Cityline stipulates any performance pledge in respect of the Internet booking service; if so, of the details, and whether there is any record of the Cityline failing to meet such performance pledges; if there are such records, of the details;
(e) whether it knows if the Cityline has set a ceiling on the ratio of tickets available for sale on the Internet to the total number of tickets; if the Cityline has, of the ceiling ratio, and the number of cultural and recreational events in the past three years for which the tickets available for sale on the Internet were sold out, together with a list of the titles of such events by the length of the duration from the time tickets were open for sale to the time tickets were sold out;
(f) whether it knows the number of customers who, in the past three years, often purchased multiple tickets for the same event or made repeated attempts to purchase tickets for the same event through the booking site, the average number of tickets per event purchased by them, and the total amount of payments made by such customers for purchasing the tickets; and
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(g) whether it knows if the Cityline has detected unusual cases in which individual customers often made repeated or bulk purchases of tickets through the booking site, and if the Cityline has assessed whether such cases involve ticket scalping activities; if the assessment outcome is in the affirmative, of the follow-up actions taken by the authorities?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Chinese): President, the URBTIX has been providing one-stop ticketing services to hirers or programme organizers and audiences of the LCSD performance venues since it commenced operation in 1984. It is not mandatory for hirers of performance venues (including the Hong Kong Coliseum) to use any particular ticketing channel or agent for the sale of tickets. If hirers choose the URBTIX for the sale of their programme tickets, the URBTIX will serve as the ticketing agent and make relevant ticketing arrangements as instructed by programme organizers.
The serving URBTIX ticketing system commenced operation in late 2006. The system developed then has taken into account the market situation and requirements at that time, thus the services provided by the system, in particular the Internet booking functions, may not meet the present ticketing requirements. With a view to enhancing the ticketing services to address the requests of programme organizers and members of the public, the LCSD has awarded a new contract to upgrade the existing computerized ticketing system through an open tender exercise this year. Under the new contract, the contractor will launch a new computerized ticketing system and service in early 2014. Compared with the current system, the new ticketing system offers a greater number of real-time Internet ticketing sessions (with a tenfold increase in the number of concurrent users that can be accommodated) and more convenient ticketing functions. New services include the provision of a ticket pre-sale service for up to 12 months in advance, telephone booking via mobile phones, support to Mainland patrons in using their China UnionPay cards for payment of Internet booking, and a personalized online ticketing service for Internet patrons.
Regarding the questions raised by Mr Charles Peter MOK, my reply is as follows:
(a) The current ticketing system is owned and developed by the Cityline at the company's own cost, and the Cityline is responsible for the operation and maintenance of the system. It also provides Internet LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4395
and telephone booking services. The existing seven-year service contract signed between the LCSD and the Cityline will expire in early March of 2014. According to the contract terms, the Cityline charges service fee as its operating revenue based on actual sales. The total value of the contract within the contract period is around $82 million. Following the procedures of an open tender exercise, the new service contract is awarded to the Cityline. The contract will commence on 5 March 2014 for a period of seven years. The service fee will also be charged on the basis of the actual sales. The estimated value of the new contract is around $123 million.
(b) As more time is required for compilation of data, at the moment the Cityline can only provide the daily average number of the page views of the main webpage and the number of unique visitors over the past 12 months as set out in the table below. The current system does not capture any statistics on the display of server busy messages due to the overloading of the server.
The daily average number between December 2012 and November 2013 Page views of the main webpage 120 600 Unique visitors 25 000 (identified according to the visitor's IP address)
(c) and (d)
As stipulated in the existing contract, the ticketing system is required to accommodate not less than 200 users of the Internet booking service concurrently. The Cityline has always been able to meet the requirement.
As tickets are sold on a "first come, first served" basis, most people purchase their tickets between 10 am and the subsequent few hours on the first day of sale through various ticketing channels. On the first day of sale for a popular programme, the network traffic is generally very heavy due to the large number of users. As a result, some users fail to log in the booking site instantly and have to make repeated attempts patiently to log in.
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The new ticketing system to be launched in early 2014 provides an Internet booking service which can accommodate up to 2 000 users concurrently, representing a tenfold increase in capacity over the current system. The Cityline is also able to expand the capacity of the new system when necessary. We believe that this will enhance the effectiveness of the Internet booking service.
(e) Programme organizers who use the URBTIX usually sell their tickets at various outlets, on the Internet and by telephone booking at the same time. No specific quota is set for Internet booking. Tickets are sold on a "first come, first served" basis.
(f) and (g)
As the ticketing system does not have the automatic function of monitoring the number of tickets purchased by individual customers and the amount of payments, we cannot provide information such as the number of customers who often purchase multiple tickets for the same event or purchase tickets repeatedly for the same event through the booking site, the average number of tickets per event purchased by them, and the total amount of payments made by such customers for purchasing the tickets.
To uphold the principle of being fair, open and just in the sale of tickets by the URBTIX, the LCSD and the Cityline will monitor the ticketing situation from time to time. Sometimes customers are found accessing the URBTIX webpage and purchasing tickets through robot activities. In view of this, the Cityline has enhanced the function of intercepting browsing and the purchase of tickets through improper programmes on the Internet booking system in late 2012. As for ticket scalping activities, the URBTIX has specified in its "Terms and Conditions of Sale of Tickets" and "Notice to Ticket Buyers" that it has not authorized anybody to make alternative arrangements for sale of tickets in venues or through other channels. If any person detect ticket scapling activities, they should seek police assistance and the URBTIX will take appropriate actions accordingly.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4397
MEMBERS' MOTIONS
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members' motions. There are a total of three Members' motions for this meeting.
First Member's motion: Proposed resolution under the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance to extend the period for amending two items of subsidiary legislation in relation to the Waste Disposal Ordinance, which were laid on the table of this Council on 4 December 2013.
I now call upon Mr Andrew LEUNG to speak and move the motion.
PROPOSED RESOLUTION UNDER SECTION 34(4) OF THE INTERPRETATION AND GENERAL CLAUSES ORDINANCE
MR ANDREW LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I move that the motion, as printed on the Agenda, be passed. At the House Committee meeting of 6 December 2013, Members decided to form a subcommittee to study the two amendment regulations as set out in the motion.
Members agreed that, in my capacity as Chairman of the House Committee, I shall move a motion to extend the scrutiny period for the two amendment regulations to the meeting on 22 January 2014, so as to allow sufficient time for the Subcommittee's scrutiny.
President, I urge Members to support the motion as set out on the Agenda.
Mr Andrew LEUNG moved the following motion:
"RESOLVED that in relation to the ―
(a) Waste Disposal (Designated Waste Disposal Facility) (Amendment) Regulation 2013, published in the Gazette as Legal Notice No. 188 of 2013; and
(b) Waste Disposal (Refuse Transfer Station) (Amendment) Regulation 2013, published in the Gazette as Legal Notice No. 189 of 2013,
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and laid on the table of the Legislative Council on 4 December 2013, the period for amending subsidiary legislation referred to in section 34(2) of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance (Cap. 1) be extended under section 34(4) of that Ordinance to the meeting of 22 January 2014."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr Andrew LEUNG be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the motion passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The second and the third Members' motions are motion debates with no legislative effect. I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee: that is, the movers of motions each may speak, including making a reply, for up to 15 minutes, and have another five minutes to speak on the amendments; the movers of amendments each may speak for up to 10 minutes; and other Members each may speak for up to seven minutes. I am LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4399 obliged to direct any Member speaking in excess of the specified time to discontinue.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Second Member's motion: Enhancing the railway service in the Northwest New Territories.
Members who wish to speak in the motion debate will please press the "Request to speak" button.
I now call upon Mr LEUNG Che-cheung to speak and move the motion.
ENHANCING THE RAILWAY SERVICE IN THE NORTHWEST NEW TERRITORIES
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, for decades, it has been advocated that railways should form the backbone of the transport network in Hong Kong, supplemented by buses and other modes of transport. However, over the years, in the vast territory of the New Territories West, the major modes of transport were buses, minibuses, the Light Rail and village buses. It was not until 2003 that the West Rail was commissioned and became a mass transit carrier providing speedy services between the urban area and the Northwest New Territories. However, as railway planning and quality of service are still very unsatisfactory, I thus move this motion on "Enhancing the Railway Service in the Northwest New Territories" today, hoping that the Government will face the problem seriously. As advocated by the Government, "nothing about people's livelihood is trivial", it should enhance the railway service in the Northwest New Territories to connect the northwestern and northeastern parts of the New Territories, shorten the time taken for people to reach their destinations and materialize the half-hour living circle.
(THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, MR ANDREW LEUNG, took the Chair)
The very rapid population growth in the Northwest New Territories should be complemented by support in various aspects, and transportation is a very important factor.
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In the past decade, the population growth in the New Territories exceeded 10.4% while the population growth in Kowloon during the same period was only 4.2%, and there was even a 4.8% drop in the population on the Hong Kong Island. In Yuen Long, Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan, the population rapidly increased from 1.21 million in 2001 to 1.37 million, an increase of nearly 13%; and in Yuen Long, the population increased by 28.8% within 10 years, which was alarming.
As for future development, with the completion of the public housing development in Hung Shui Kiu Area 13 and the new Home Ownership Scheme development at Kiu Cheong Road, Tin Shui Wai in the next few years, tens of thousands of people will live there. Hung Shui Kiu will be developed into a major new town, after Tseung Kwan O and Tung Chung. In the future, it will be a new town with a population of 220 000, with large shopping malls, hotels and so on. It will also become a regional business hub. Moreover, there is the housing development project in Yuen Long South; the Housing Department is studying the construction of 17 000 public rental housing units in the "brownfields" in Wang Chau, Yuen Long, which can accommodate 52 000 people. In addition, it is expected that 28 000 people will live in above-station properties of the West Rail Kam Sheung Road Station and the Pat Heung Maintenance Centre. By a simple calculation, there will be at least an increase of 300 000 to 400 000 more people in Yuen Long, and the population in Yuen Long will reach 1 million, the largest number among 18 districts. The population in the Kowloon East geographical constituency of the Legislative Council is only 1 million; we can hence imagine how the population in Yuen Long will surge.
Unfortunately, in implementing a number of housing development projects and new town planning, the Government has constantly driven people to move to Yuen Long, without paying heed to transport development. We really cannot accept this arrangement and do not hope to see that the mode of development of Tseung Kwan O more than a decade ago will recur again in the Northwest New Territories. In Tseung Kwan O, the policy of "develop first, provision of railway service to follow" had given rise to the chaotic situation of overlapping in transport services.
Deputy President, it takes at least three to seven years to build a railway, and distant water cannot put off a nearby fire. The two existing lifelines of the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4401
Northwest New Territories, namely the West Rail and the Light Rail, have already been "blocked".
The West Rail is an important mode of transport for residents in the Northwest Territories to travel to the urban area. I often receive complaints from residents concerning the low service frequency of the West Rail during the rush hours in the evening. Trains departing from Hung Hom are at a six-minute interval, and they are already packed with people after the Tsim Sha Tsui East and Nam Cheong stations. Passengers can hardly board the trains at the Mei Foo and Tsuen Wan West stations, and they very often have to wait for three trains before they can get on board.
The original design of the West Rail can carry nine train compartments, but at present, trains only carry seven compartments. It is not difficult at all to increase train compartments and frequency of service. However, in the face of crowded train compartments and increasing population in the future, the MTR Corporation neither improves service frequency nor increases the number of train compartments. Instead, it shuns on the pretext of insufficient data, which is very disappointing.
Speaking of the railway system in the Northwest New Territories, I have to mention the Light Rail. The Light Rail is a unique system in the Northwest New Territories, which has been in operation for 25 years. Today, this system really fails to keep pace with development and population growth. In addition to frequent accidents and crowded platforms, it is really absurd that the last train-departure time of certain Light Rail lines cannot cater for the needs of passengers on the last train of West Rail lines. I had met with the MTRCL and raised a question in the Legislative Council concerning this matter. The reply given was that the last train of the Light Rail had to depart earlier for maintenance repair and inspection works, thus passengers on the last train of West Rail lines cannot return home by taking the Light Rail, which is really absurd and ironic.
I particularly mention in the motion to extend the Light Rail line to Tuen Mun Area 54 because the Housing Department is now carrying out a large-scale public rental housing development project in Tsz Tin Estate, Tuen Mun and it is expected that 30 000 people will move to Tuen Mun after the completion of the project. However, the Government has ignored the transport needs of residents and has not planned to construct a Light Rail station in Tuen Mun Area 54. In future, residents in Tsz Tin Estate who take the West Rail will have to pass 4402 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 through Siu Hong Court before reaching their homes. While residents of Siu Hong Court are dissatisfied with this arrangement, residents of Tsz Tin Estate will have to walk a long way. This is another valid proof of housing development not dovetail with transport needs.
Deputy President, we clearly see on the map that the West Rail and the East Rail are two parallel railways. Although they are operated by the same organization, they are independent of each other, making it very inconvenient for people living in eastern and western parts of the New Territories to travel to and fro.
In fact, the East Rail and the West Rail should be connected long ago. According to information, back in 1994, the Government proposed in the report on Railway Development Strategy that the Western Corridor, that is, the existing West Rail, should construct a "transit passenger line", to connect the West Rail and the East Rail lines. This is the Northern Link that we have subsequently become familiar with. Twenty years have quickly gone by but the Northern Link is still an armchair strategy, which is extremely disappointing.
In addition to the Northern Link, the Government should construct the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan expeditiously, and the rail should also be connected to Sha Tin, so as to divert the flow of people to the south, the north and the east. In this way, problems relating to the increasing population in Yuen Long and Tuen Mun, as mentioned earlier, can be resolved. At present, since the West Rail only reaches the Tuen Mun Town Centre and does not cover the major residential areas around the Tuen Mun Ferry Pier, residents have a strong demand for the Tuen Mun South Extension of the West Rail. All such demands had been mentioned in the Railway Development Strategy 2000. In fact, the Railway Development Strategy 2000 made a number of excellent recommendations on the railway services in the Northwest New Territories, including the construction of the Northern Link, the Hong Kong-ShenzhenWestern Express Line, the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan, the Tuen Mun South Extension and the Hung Shui Kiu station. Yet, even the most desirable proposals will be meaningless if the Government is just paying lip service.
Hence, I move this motion on "Enhancing the Railway Service in the Northwest New Territories" and I hope Honourable colleagues will support this LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4403 motion. Although seven Honourable colleagues proposed amendments, I think they only proposed some better enhancement measures.
Now that the existing railways are ineffective, and in the absence of any enhancement and improvement, if there is a population growth of hundreds of thousands of residents, the situation will be aggravated, and the quality of life of the existing residents of the Northwest New Territories will be seriously affected. Some say that electricity and railway are the blood vessels and energy channels for the development of a place, their importance is well evident. In the future, the development of new towns in Hong Kong will be focused on the Northwest New Territories and the Northeast New Territories. Before the authorities make plans for development, we very much hope that they will first feel the pulse of the railway network and railway services in the area, and then apply the treatment of acupuncture, so that the area will have unobstructed energy channels and can develop in a healthy manner.
Deputy President, I so submit. Thank you.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now call upon Mr LEUNG to move the motion.
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I move that the motion on "Enhancing the Railway Service in the Northwest New Territories" be passed.
Mr LEUNG Che-cheung moved the following motion: (Translation)
"That, while the population in the Northwest New Territories increases rapidly, the existing railway and transport link in the district are unable to meet the residents' demand, and with a number of new development plans in the district, the support of railway infrastructure is hence required; the Government has put forward a number of proposals on railway development in the "Railway Development Strategy 2000", but the implementation dates of some proposals have yet to be set; in this connection, this Council urges the Government to, for the purpose of dovetailing with the existing and future development needs, expeditiously implement the construction of the Northern Link, the Hong 4404 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Kong-Shenzhen Western Express Line, the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan, the Tuen Mun South Extension and the Hung Shui Kiu Station, and extend the Light Rail line to Tuen Mun Area 54, so as to cope with the demand of the residents in the Northwest New Territories for the railway service; the Government should also request the MTR Corporation Limited to expeditiously adopt effective measures to comprehensively improve the existing West Rail and Light Rail services, including reducing fare, increasing service frequencies, increasing and procuring more train cars, improving station facilities, and enhancing the Light Rail system and other connecting transportation arrangements, etc."
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr LEUNG Che-cheung be passed.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Seven Members wish to move amendments to this motion. This Council will now proceed to a joint debate on the motion and the seven amendments.
I will first call upon Dr KWOK Ka-ki to speak, to be followed by Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, Mr Frankie YICK, Miss Alice MAK, Mr Michael TIEN, Mr SIN Chung-kai and Mr Albert CHAN respectively; but they may not move amendments at this stage.
DR KWOK KA-KI (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the motion proposed by Mr LEUNG Che-cheung today gives us an opportunity to examine the changes in our society in the past 13 years since the formulation of the Railway Development Strategy 2000 in respect of population growth in different areas, transport demands of the whole community, as well as some feasible proposals.
As Mr LEUNG Che-cheung has said, the Railway Development Strategy 2000 is the blueprint of the present discussion. However, as we all know, since 2000, the new railway lines commissioned included the Tseung Kwan O Line (2002), the West Rail (2003), the East Rail Tsim Sha Tsui Extension (2004), the Ma On Shan Line (2004), the Disneyland Resort Line (2005), the Lok Ma Chau Spur Line (2007), the Tseung Kwan O Extension (2009) and the Kowloon Southern Link (2009). Deputy President, today, the railways under construction LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4405 include the West Island Line to be completed in 2014, the Hong Kong Section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link to be completed in 2015, the South Island Line and the Kwun Tung Line Extension, as well as the Shatin to Central Link to be completed in 2018. Why do I mention these new railways? These are the basic data for the Our Future Railway Stage 1 and Stage 2 public engagement exercise launched by the Government last year. When the Government examines or considers whether it is necessary to extend a railway, I believe some basic data cannot be ignored. Let us first take a look at the population structure.
When the authorities initially formulated the Railway Development Strategy 2000, it was expected that our population would reach 8.9 million in 2016. As we all know, our population growth lagged behind the estimate of the Government in the late 1990s, and there was even a negative population growth in 2003. In the new consultation document on the population policy recently released by the Chief Secretary for Administration, she proposed a new concept that there was no upper limit to our population. Nonetheless, I guess the future population growth, or our population profile in 2030 will at least be very different from that in 2000 when the first consultation document was published. Unless the Government's principle is to construct railways for construction sake, we think there is a need to fully analyse the alignment and design of different new railways.
I share the views of Mr LEUNG that some aspects of railway operation are highly unsatisfactory, especially the low service frequency of the West Rail and the Light Rail in the Northwest New Territories, which cause hardship to residents in Yuen Long and Tuen Mun during morning and evening rush hours. For people who live in Yuen Long, Tuen Mun and Tin Shui Wai, the Light Rail is an option which is unappealing but not bad enough to discard. The Light Rail has been providing service for more than 25 years. Its service has taken up a high proportion of road transport and its track has occupied considerable road surface. It is expected that the Government can hardly abandon the Light Rail system all at once. However, owing to the relatively low carrying capacity and low service frequency of the Light Rail, it has failed to meet the heavy transport demand in the area. If the Government still fails to take any actions now, given the growing population in the Northwest New Territories, especially in Yuen Long, I believe that 10 years later, the difficulties encountered will be 10 times more serious.
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Regarding some important lines, including the new lines and extended lines between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan as mentioned in the original motion, which will have great impacts on the future railway system, we really have to study very carefully the possible changes over the years. First, I would like to discuss the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan as mentioned in the Railway Development Strategy document first published in 1994. Nevertheless, I believe anyone who is familiar with this alignment would know that to implement this project, many complicated problems have to be resolved, in particular, Sham Tseng and Tsing Lung Tau which are along the alignment and are most controversial.
I visited Sham Tseng, an area especially affected by the alignment, this year and last year to talk to local residents. They are both joyful and worried about the construction of a railway. They are joyful for they will have another choice. As stated in the government document, there will be a new railway line with medium capacity, departing from the Tuen Mun Ferry Pier, via Tsing Lung Tau, Sam Shing to Sham Tseng and Tsuen Wan, and then connecting to the West Rail. However, residents living along the coastal area are most worried, especially those living in areas around Sham Tseng and Tsing Lung Tau. They learnt from the government paper the immense difficulties involved in constructing a railway along the mountains or the Tuen Mun Highway. The Government had also indicated that it might be necessary to build some railway viaducts along the coastal area and in front of many housing estates. Thus, many Sham Tseng residents have strong reservations and concerns about this.
If the Government does not conduct an explicit and detailed consultation, we will not know what problems would arise from the alignment and their impacts on residents, as well as the construction problems involved. We should not forget the impact of the alignment on Tsuen Wan, especially how tenants in the existing factory area would be affected. I think these projects should not be implemented rashly.
As for the Northern Link and the Regional Express Line, the areas covered by the Northern Link include the Northeast New Territories New Development Areas which has recently aroused a lot of controversies. At present, the Northeast New Territories New Development Area is still far from being fully accepted and supported by the public. Today, members of the public have not fully accepted the development plan, unlike what the Secretary for Development, Paul CHAN, has claimed.
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I have doubts about these proposed railway projects which will affect coastal residents, and I think the Government should carry out feasibility studies and thorough consultations on these projects at an early date. I do not want the Government to repeat the same mistakes, and arouse strong objections or oppositions from the residents in connection with the alignment of railways. If the Government obstinately clinges to its own ways, I believe the residents will react strongly.
In addition, concerning the construction of the Hung Shui Kiu Station and the extension of the West Rail to Tuen Mun Ferry Pier area, I believe there are no great disputes and it is very likely that the Government can implement the projects. I would like to talk about fares and the existing fare collection arrangement of the West Rail. In the past, when the "Monthly Pass" scheme was introduced, there were two railways operated separately by the KCR and the MTR. At present, when "Monthly Pass" holders change for the MTR, they still have to pay the relevant fares, which has imposed a heavy burden on them. I hope that the Government would not stick to its old practice and determine the fares afresh under the "Monthly Pass Extra" scheme for the West Rail. The transport expenses of residents in the area are rather high, if the Government can readjust fares in response to their heavy burdens, and reduce the fares when they change for the MTR (The buzzer sounded) … I believe more people will be benefited …
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Your speaking time is up.
DR KWOK KA-KI (in Cantonese): … I so submit. Thank you, Deputy President.
IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): Deputy President, first of all, I would like to thank Mr LEUNG Che-cheung for moving the original motion so that we can have an in-depth discussion in this Chamber about this important subject.
In light of the actual situation in Hong Kong, the community has reached a consensus that railway is the backbone of the passenger transport system. That is because railway has the social benefits of high capacity, extensive coverage and low emission. At present, our railway network carries over 4.5 million 4408 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 passengers each day, accounting for about 38% of all public transport passenger trips. It is expected that around 2020, areas inhabited by more than 70% of the population in Hong Kong will be brought into the railway catchment area, and railway will account for 43% of all public transport passenger trips. The railway network can also alleviate road traffic congestion and reduce vehicle-induced air pollution, which gives full play to environmental benefits. More importantly, a sound mass transit railway network can release the development potential of peripheral areas, promote economic activities, and thereby improve people's livelihood.
Therefore, I agree with the proposals in the original motion. Given the rapid population growth in the Northwest New Territories and a number of new development projects in the area, the support of railway infrastructure facilities is hence required. The authorities concerned should expeditiously implement the construction of the Northern Link, the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Express Line, the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan, the Tuen Mun South Extension, the Hung Shui Kiu Station, and extend the Light Rail line to Tuen Mun Area 54, so as to meet the current and future development needs of local residents. However, I think we should not ignore the need to formulate policies and plans for the territory's overall long-term railway development, and this is precisely the objective of my amendment.
Deputy President, my engineering background allows me to have a thorough understanding of the long and painstaking process of new railway development, from planning to construction to completion of works. A series of procedures are involved, such as conducting concept studies, feasibility studies, preliminary studies, detailed designs and public consultations to gather public views from the local community and various sectors. The relevant proposals should also be gazetted in accordance with the Railways Ordinance. If the projects require government funding, approval by the Finance Committee of the Legislative Council is required before the construction works can formally commence. As it often takes more than 10 years to complete a railway project, it would be better to make plans earlier.
At present, the construction of five new railways is in full swing, they include the West Island Line, the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link, the South Island Line (East), the Kwun Tong Line Extension and the Shatin to Central Link. Four of these lines will be completed one after another within two to three years while the entire Shatin to Central Link will be completed by LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4409
2020. What other railway projects can be launched immediately thereafter? If no new railway project is developed within a short period of time, a gap will soon arise in the area of railway infrastructure, local engineers and front-line construction workers will again be caught in the plight of "either die of overwork or die of hunger", which will fail to promote the sustainable and healthy development of the relevant industries. This highlights the urgency of long-term overall railway planning.
The Government formulated the first Railway Development Strategy in 1994, and proposed to give priority to the development of the West Rail, the MTR Tseung Kwan O Extension and the Ma On Shan to Tai Wai Rail Link, as well as the KCR Extension from Hung Hom to Tsim Sha Tsui. In May 2000, the authorities published the Railway Development Strategy 2000, which provided the planning framework for future expansion of Hong Kong's railway network up to 2016. Priority was accorded to the construction of the five new railways in full swing as just mentioned, and the Kowloon Southern Link, which was open to traffic in 2009. The various plans have contributed to the orderly and sustainable development of the local railway infrastructure, and the fruitful results are obvious to all. The various projects have contributed to the promotion of socio and economic development and the improvement of people's livelihood, as well as the nurture of a number of experienced railway engineering and project management personnel.
Hong Kong has accumulated experience in this area, and these high value-added services have even been exported to the Mainland and overseas countries. Nonetheless, we must promptly review and revise the railway network development blueprint. The authorities launched the Stage 1 "Our Future Railway" public engagement exercise between April and July 2012, and put forward the idea of three major regional railway corridors, namely the Northern Link, the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Express Line, and the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan. The Stage 2 public engagement exercise was launched between February and May this year, with focus on seven local enhancement schemes for the existing railway lines. They included the North Island Line, the Siu Sai Wan line, the South Island Line (West), the Tuen Mun South Extension, the Hung Shui Kiu Station, the Tung Chung West Extension and the Kwu Tung Station. We are now waiting for the authorities to consider the results of the two public engagement exercises and work out Hong Kong's future railway development strategy.
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However, the long-term overall railway planning is very complex, covering a very extensive scope, and is inseparable from the overall urban planning. I think the authorities must carefully study the following key factors: first, meeting the demands arising from the population growth. The Government released a population policy consultation document entitled "Thoughts for Hong Kong" in October 2013. When public consultation ended in February 2014, the Government should expeditiously formulate a population policy and make corresponding adjustments to the railway development blueprint of Hong Kong according to the latest population statistics and projections, as well as the planning parameters concerning the population and employment.
Second, complying with the long-term supply of land and housing. The public consultation on Long Term Housing Strategy has just ended on 2 December. According to the basic projection in the consultation document, the total housing supply target for the next 10 years will range from 440 000 to 500 000 units. The Chief Executive also made it clear in his Policy Address 2013 that the Government would take a number of strong measures to increase land supply to meet housing and development needs. The longer-term measures include planning of the Northeast New Territories New Development Areas, the Hung Shui Kiu New Development Area, the development of the northern part of the New Territories and Lantau, such as conducting the Tung Chung New Town Extension Study and carrying out reclamation works on an appropriate scale outside the Victoria Harbour. In carrying out the planning, the authorities must ensure the support of railway infrastructure. We know that building roads will generate wealth and I believe building roads will also lead to an inflow of more people as railway development will create new sites for housing construction, which include above-station property.
Third, complying with the needs of long-term development and strategic planning in Hong Kong. The SAR Government published in October 2007 the final report of the "Hong Kong 2030: Planning Vision and Strategy" study (Hong Kong 2030 Study), setting out directions on the development strategy of Hong Kong up to 2030, including providing a quality living environment, improving economic competitiveness and strengthening ties with the Mainland. Yet, as I emphasized when I moved the motion on "Formulating long-term infrastructure planning to promote sustainable development" at the first meeting of the Legislative Council this year, the SAR Government should propose an enhancement proposal as soon as possible on the basis of the "Hong Kong 2030 Study" and draw up long-term infrastructure plans. An indispensable factor is to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4411 improve the mass transit railway network. To meet the growing demands for cross-border transportation and value-added services, Hong Kong needs to formulate a comprehensive and integrated railway development strategy. To complement the construction of the Hong Kong Section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link, the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge and the third runway at the Hong Kong International Airport, as well as the planning and overall development strategy of the Pearl River Delta Region, the SAR Government must improve cross-border land, sea and air transport network, and set the extension of the railway network must have a clear positioning, closely complemented by various modes of public transport in Hong Kong.
Deputy President, based on the above rationale, my colleagues from the Business and Professionals Alliance for Hong Kong and I believe that the SAR Government should comprehensively consider factors such as the long-term population and economic development trends, land and housing supplies and overall urban infrastructure planning. It should, based on the findings of the public consultation on "Our Future Railway", expeditiously review and formulate Hong Kong's long-term railway development blueprint, and implement the planning concerned in a practical and orderly manner, so as to ensure Hong Kong's sustainable development.
With these remarks, Deputy President, I urge Honourable colleagues to support my amendment.
MR FRANKIE YICK (in Cantonese): Deputy President, Hong Kong is small but densely populated. With population growth and economic development, there is an increasing movement of people and goods and the transport demand is certainly great. As such, it is acceptable to regard mass transit railway service as the backbone of the transport system. In view of the rapidly growing population and the increasing transport demand in the Northwest New Territories, the Liberal Party has indicated in Stage 2 of the consultation on "Our Future Railway" its support to construct the Northern Link to connect the West Rail Kam Sheung Road Station and the Kwu Tung New Development Area (NDA), and to consider constructing the Kwu Tung Station on the Lok Ma Chau Spur Line. The Liberal Party also urges the Government to expeditiously implement the construction of the Tuen Mun South Extension and the Hung Shui Kiu Station, so as to integrate the east-west railway systems. However, in expanding the railway service, I 4412 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 hope the Government will also pay regard to the development of other modes of public transport so as to provide better feeder services to the public. As such, I propose an amendment to Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's motion.
As urban development is basically saturated, we have no choice but to develop the outskirts of the city in order to cope with housing and development needs. With a large population moving into new towns, people are travelling frequently between NDAs and the city centre for work or for other economic activities, thus increasing the transport demand for connecting NDAs and the urban areas. Hence, comprehensive public transport linkages are vital to the residents in these districts.
On the issue of improving the railway service in the Northwest New Territories, the Liberal Party considers that the Northern Link, which connects the East Rail Line with the West Rail Line, has its strategic status. The Northern Link will not only provide direct and convenient railway service for residents in the Northwest New Territories going to and from the Mainland, but will also provide convenient transport service to the working population in the future development areas including Hung Shui Kiu, Northeast New Territories, Yuen Long South, and so on.
However, in parallel with railway development, I hope the Administration will also pay regard to the development of the overall transport network. The fast and convenient transport service of Hong Kong is the cornerstone of our success today. It has already been 16 years since the Transport Department commissioned the Third Comprehensive Transport Study in August 1997 and no similar study has been conducted in the meantime. But in the past decade or so, with significant increases in population, the number of visitors to Hong Kong, cross-boundary passenger flow and transport flow; and coupled with the development of new towns and the concession scheme of $2 per trip for the elderly introduced since June last year, there are changes in the overall demand for transportation and the travelling pattern of passengers. Although the carrying capacity of various transport modes has increased from 10 million passenger trips per day in the past to 12 million passenger trips per day in 2012, other modes of transport apart from railway have not benefited as a result. The market share of the MTR was only 30% a decade ago, and it has increased remarkably to 40% in 2012. On the contrary, the market share of other transport modes such as franchised buses has dropped from 37.6% to 31.4%, while that of taxis has dropped from 11.5% to 7.7% in 2012, representing a decrease by 30%. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4413
Although the market share of public light buses has a slight increase, the percentage is as low as 0.4%. The substantial increase in market share of the MTR is due to the continuous extension of the railway network following the completion of the Tseung Kwan O Line, East Rail extension, Ma On Shan Line, and so on.
In the future, railway development remains the backbone of Hong Kong's public transport system and its network will continue to extend. When the five railway projects now underway ― Deputy President, I am not going to repeat the names of these projects as our colleagues have already mentioned them just now in their speeches ― are completed in succession by 2020, areas inhabited by more than 70% of the population in Hong Kong will be brought into the railway catchment area. By then the passenger flow of other public transport modes will be further affected. In Stage 2 of the consultation on "Our Future Railway" which has just been completed, seven options have been proposed. If all the seven options are implemented, the railway network will have an even wider catchment area and a greater impact on the operation of other public transport modes.
There is a lack of vision in the planning of Hong Kong's road transport. This has not only led to ever worsening traffic congestion but also an unclear positioning of various modes of public transport, thus causing vicious competition among them. Despite being complementary in nature, other modes of transport should also take up their respective roles. For example, franchised buses should be another mode of mass transport apart from the MTR, but the overlapping of routes with the MTR has very often resulted in insufficient passengers. Yet the rationalization of franchised bus routing has met with much resistance. As a result, bus operators suffer losses due to insufficient passengers and they have no choice but to increase the fares, thus adding to the burden of the public. Furthermore, while the room for operation of various transport modes is shrinking, feeder bus service operated by the MTR is ever expanding and is in direct competition with other public transport. In fact, the feeder bus service operated by the MTR should be shared by other public transport. Excessive policy inclination, that is, the provision of transport services by one single operator, is not desirable.
Therefore, in view of population growth, economic development and increasing number of visitors, the Government should expeditiously launch the 4414 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Fourth Comprehensive Transport Study so that various modes of public transport can play their respective roles effectively. In the Study, forward planning should be made for the development of the transport system in the coming decade or so while clear positioning should be set for various modes of public transport to promote their healthy development in order to cope with the ever increasing transport demand.
Regarding the amendments proposed by a few other colleagues, their intention is to extend the railway service to the Northwest New Territories. They propose more specific suggestions on how to further enhance the railway service, which include increasing monthly ticket concessions, perfecting the fare adjustment mechanism and improving barrier-free facilities and services, and so on. The Liberal Party supports all these suggestions. Regarding the fares, last year I proposed an amendment to the motion on "Executive Council as gate-keeper for MTR fares" suggesting the implementation of an "MTR profit-sharing scheme" by returning to members of the public 5% of the profit from underlying businesses attributable to shareholders, so as to offset the extent of fare increases. My suggestion is similar to the concept of the Profit Sharing Mechanism introduced by the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) in June this year. However, under the MTRCL's mechanism, the MTRCL has only set aside 1.9% of its $13 billion underlying business profit for fare concession. The percentage is far below the 5% recommended by the Liberal Party. Therefore, we think that the Government should consider our suggestion by raising the percentage to 5%. At the same time, the MTRCL should directly reduce the fares instead of only providing second trip discounts to passengers.
For Mr Michael TIEN's amendment in which the replacement of the Light Rail with a viaduct railway is proposed, I have reservation about such suggestion. For one reason, the Light Rail has been in operation for years and the infrastructure is already well established. In my view, the current problems can be addressed by using different road signs and systems instead of abolishing the Light Rail altogether. Besides, I doubt whether such a replacement is the most efficacious and cost-effective option. I have reservation about the suggestion of building a monorail in East Kowloon in view of the flexibility and scalability of a monorail, as well as the problems in evacuating passengers in case of emergency and its daily maintenance. Nonetheless, I do not oppose a study on this and hence the Liberal Party will still support Mr Michael TIEN's amendment.
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With these remarks, Deputy President, I support the original motion and all the amendments.
MISS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): Deputy President, first of all, I would like to thank Mr LEUNG Che-cheung for proposing the motion today so that we can discuss how to enhance the railway service in the Northwest New Territories. Basically I agree with all the contents proposed in the original motion but I raise two points in my amendment on the linkage systems in the Hung Shui Kiu New Development Area (NDA) and the safety of the existing Light Rail.
We are concerned about a number of development projects in the Northwest New Territories including the NDA which completed its stage 2 consultation in October this year and the housing sites in Yuen Long South with their investigation now in progress. The population in the district is estimated to increase drastically, thus imposing a heavier burden on the railway system in the district.
The NDA has an area of approximately 826 hectares and is estimated to provide 60 000 additional residential flats. It has been the view of the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions (FTU) that the NDA should form a new town where new development is employment-led. It should be developed in conjunction with Tin Shui Wai and Tuen Mun in the vicinity and provide more job opportunities for local residents. In our view, Hung Shui Kiu should be developed into a commercial and trading area so that the traditional business hub can be extended to the New Territories and numerous employment opportunities are created in the district.
It is learnt that the housing sites in Yuen Long South where investigation is underway will provide 30 000 residential flats. Together with the existing 290 000 residents in Tin Shui Wai new town, the area around Hung Shui Kiu will have a population exceeding 500 000 in the future. In our view, priority should be given to developing the linkage systems in the area and hence we support to expeditiously implement the construction of the Northern Link, the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Express Line, the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan (Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link), the Tuen Mun South Extension and the Hung Shui Kiu Station of the West Rail, and extend the Light Rail line to Tuen Mun Area 54.
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In my amendment I have highlighted the construction of the Hung Shui Kiu Station of the West Rail. Although there is a Hung Shui Kiu Station in the Light Rail at present, we consider it appropriate to include Hung Shui Kiu into the West Rail network in order to cope with the needs in the NDA and also the traffic flow in the district. In the Railway Development Strategy 2000, it is suggested that Hung Shui Kiu Station be added in the West Rail between Tin Shui Wai Station and Siu Hong Station so as to support the construction of the overall NDA.
The public rental housing project in Hung Shui Kiu will complete as early as 2015. By then, the population will surge and the demand for community facilities in the area will also increase. We hope that the Government will expeditiously construct the supporting transport facilities and railways to dovetail with the moving in of residents, so that the first batch of residents will not become "pioneers".
Furthermore, we find it necessary to strengthen the future linkage systems in the NDA. In particular, there are mainly small village houses in the area with little planning in the past. The roads are narrow and winding, yet many residents travel by private cars, thus leading to serious traffic congestion. As such, we think that the linkage transport in the district should be taken into consideration in the future. For example, space should be reserved for developing a cycling track system or a green mode of transport (such as monorail), with a view to improving the linkage systems in the district to tie in with the population development.
Basically we support various amendments except the one proposed by Dr KWOK Ka-ki. Just now he has expressed his view on the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link which is different from that of the FTU. We understand that some residents in the district, particularly those living in the coastal areas such as Tsing Lung Tau, are worried about the impact of railway construction on their life or environment. But we should also understand that people who can benefit most from the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link are the residents living in south of Tuen Mun Town Centre as well as people travelling from the urban areas (be it Tsuen Wan or Kwai Tsing) to Tuen Mun for work. The existing West Rail service can hardly meet the needs of these people. Most of them can only ride on buses which takes more than an hour. If the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link is implemented, residents can probably save more than 40 minutes on every trip and this brings much convenience especially when going to work.
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In the Railway Development Strategy 2000, the Government suggested that the West Rail Line be extended to Tuen Mun South such that residents there can use the West Rail directly. This will provide more transport options for local residents travelling to and from the urban areas. If the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link is constructed to connect the West Rail, a ring railway network will be formed in the whole Northwest New Territories. This will greatly shorten the travelling time for residents between the Northwest New Territories and the urban areas, thus increasing job opportunities for these residents and promoting the development of the district.
In fact, the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link has been discussed for years. I have heard from many young people living in Tuen Mun ― they were young then but are now over 30 years old ― that the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link is their dream. When they moved to Tuen Mun, the district was rather backward. The reconstruction of Tuen Mun Road had not yet commenced and they suffered from traffic jam every day during rush hours. In their memory, the traffic jam is an apt portrayal of their life in Tuen Mun. As such, the construction of the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link is a dream to them and they always hope that more railways can be constructed in Tuen Mun so that they can enjoy the convenience brought about by railways just like residents in other districts.
In 2008, the Tsuen Wan District Council and Tuen Mun District Council conducted a joint study on the possible options for the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link and had put forward a number of alignment options with a view to facilitating the transportation between Tsuen Wan and Tuen Mun without adversely affecting residents in areas around Sham Tseng and Tsing Lung Tau. Given that the Government had already indicated in the Railway Development Strategy 2000 that it would study the feasibility of the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link, would the Government please stop saying that further study is needed? We hope the Government will tell the public that it has decided to construct the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link.
The question at issue is whether there is a need to construct the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link while other technical issues can be discussed if such a need is established. If all of us recognize the need of Tuen Mun residents for a mass transit system like the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link to facilitate their travelling 4418 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 to and from the urban areas, we should then discuss the question of alignment and how to avoid affecting the life or environment of residents in the vicinity.
We must not fall into the trap of the Government. The Government often says that residents in Tsing Lung Tau, Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan should first negotiate among themselves to reach a consensus before the Government will advise whether or not the project will be implemented. The residents consider that the Government is obliged to tell them whether there is a need to construct the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link. All the Government needs to do is to tell Tuen Mun residents whether there is such a need. If there is, further discussion will be held on the alignment, location of stations, as well as how to minimize the impacts on residents and the environment. I hope we will not fall into the trap of the Government again for it only tells us that it will proceed with the matter after our discussion. But it turns out that nothing has been achieved.
While all of us here hope to construct new railway systems, we may probably agree that the Light Rail is nothing but a "chicken rib". In fact, when the Light Rail came into service, many residents in Tin Shui Wai, Tuen Mun and Yuen Long welcomed it very much as they thought that the Light Rail was very good mode of transport which could facilitate their movement within the district. However, we can all see at present that the increasing occurrence of accidents and the backward system of the Light Rail have caused much inconvenience to the residents.
In our view, given that the MTR Corporation Limited has almost dominated the transport system in Tin Shui Wai, Tuen Mun and Yuen Long, it has the responsibility to improve the existing barrier-free facilities and enhance the safety of the whole Light Rail system so that no more accidents will happen again. We also hope that people with disabilities may find it more convenient to use the railway and that more concessions will be introduced to relieve the burden of the public on transport expenses.
Deputy President, I so submit.
MR MICHAEL TIEN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, first of all, I would like to thank Mr LEUNG Che-cheung for proposing this motion on "Enhancing the railway service in the Northwest New Territories". Having worked for the Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation previously, I would like to make some LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4419 practicable suggestions in respect of railway development, service improvement and long-term planning on the basis of my then experience. I also hope that Honourable Members can support my amendment.
I support all rail lines suggested in the original motion and the amendments. When planning the development of new towns, the authorities should ensure that railway development can dovetail with local needs and increase the rail network coverage. Projects such as the Northern Link and the Tuen Mun South Extension have been on the drawing board for over 10 years since the publication of the Railway Development Strategy 2000 for public discussion. So far, no final decision has been taken. These projects have been subjected to repeated changes and reviews. As a result, the alignment has been altered time and again. This is a classic case of making no decision after discussion and taking no action after a decision is made.
Given that the planning parameter for railway construction of the Government is to build a rail line after certain population threshold is met, railway development in the New Territories has always been slower than that in the Hong Kong Island and Kowloon. This passive planning approach fails to achieve the objective of propelling development through rail transport. Hence, if the authorities are determined to develop the New Territories, the construction of railway projects should be expedited in order to make up for the time lost.
My amendment consists of two points. The first point is about continuing to perfect the Fare Adjustment Mechanism (FAM). Both the original motion and other amendments have requested for improvement of the existing services, including reducing fare. Since the railway merger in 2007, fare has only been increased and never reduced under the FAM of the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) which supposedly provides for both upward and downward adjustments. Over a period of eight years, fare has increased by 12% in total, which exceeds the 10.2% growth in median monthly income. This has created a heavy financial burden on the travelling public.
I understand that the grassroots in particular would consider that the lower the fare, the better. However, unless we adopt Singapore's approach of using public money to support a public utility which should be capable of being self-financing, "reducing fare" is just an empty slogan. For instance, does it mean reducing the fare on all lines? What is the percentage of fare reduction? 4420 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
I consider it is more practical to approach the issue from the perspective of the FAM.
Last year, this Council held a motion debate on "Executive Council as gate-keeper for MTR fares". My objective was to include some humanistic considerations into the FAM and empower the Executive Council to reduce the level of fare increase proposed by the MTRCL by 30%. Eventually, various factors were introduced in the revised FAM announced in May, such that the increase in fares in any given year would not be higher than the year-on-year percentage increase of the median monthly household income for that year. But I consider it inadequate. Deputy President, if the annual increase in fares is pegged with the median monthly household income, even if the salary of wage earners has increased in any given year, it would mean that their salary has effectively not increased at all, which can bring no improvement to the livelihood.
I would understand if the MTRCL is strictly a private enterprise, but as the Government is its majority shareholder with a shareholding of over 70%, and the MTRCL's operation is subsidized by property development, the Corporation should bear a greater share of corporate social responsibility. Therefore, I suggest that a cap be introduced to the FAM such that the increase in fares should not exceed 70% of the increase in salary, rather than on a par with salary increase. This suggestion would allow scope for improvement in respect of people's quality of life.
Secondly, I would like to discuss the point raised by Mr Frankie YICK just now on abolishing the Light Rail (LR) and conducting study to replace it by a viaduct railway. Deputy President, this year is the 25th anniversary of the commissioning of the LR. Through and through, the LR is a wrong project constructed in the wrong location, in the wrong space and at the wrong time. Or it is a piece of "chicken rib" transport infrastructure, so to speak, which is tasteless to eat and wasteful to throw away because it has failed to provide quality service. The accident rate of the LR is the highest among all railways in Hong Kong, and it has been operating at a loss year after year. Yet, both the Government and the MTRCL have been stalling the issue by turning a blind eye to the problems. I consider it necessary to launch a review on the retention or otherwise of the LR expeditiously.
Constructed by the British during the colonial era, the LR was modelled after the light rail system connecting small districts in London of the United LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4421
Kingdom. At that time, the Hong Kong Government had followed suit blindly and constructed the LR in Hong Kong to connect the two new towns of Yuen Long and Tuen Mun. Hence, the LR was constructed in the wrong location. Since the commissioning of the LR in 1988, the population of Tuen Mun and Yuen Long has increased to over 1 million, or a two-fold increase, while the LR's capacity can only cope with the passenger demand in the first few years. The timing of the LR is wrong today. There is no denying that the LR has reached full capacity. Coupled with its inherent deficiency of competing with vehicular and passenger traffic for road space, there is no way to increase service frequency even if the MTRCL wants to do so because the usage rate of road space has reached full capacity. Today, the LR is in the wrong space.
The LR is the outcome of various mistakes. Do we want to make the same mistake again? The Hung Shui Kiu New Development Area (NDA) will generate even more passenger demand for the LR in future. If the train frequency or carrying capacity of the LR cannot be increased, it will become a time bomb, and incidents are bound to happen sooner or later.
Earlier, when I distributed leaflets in the districts during the peak hours, I noticed that many passengers travelled on the LR in the morning, which was a frightening situation. On a rough count, during the morning peak, some 70% of the passengers had to wait at least one to two trains before they could board the train. Moreover, the platform was dangerously narrow, and the situation was very frightening. Let me show Members two pictures. (The Member displayed the pictures) Secretary, what we see in the pictures is the typical situation at a LR station during the peak hours. I did some counting in this station, and 80% of the LR vehicles (LRVs) were single LRVs. How could the passengers board such over-crowded trains? As we can see, the passengers must wait 20-odd minutes before they can squeeze into the crowded train compartments like "sardines".
Nonetheless, why does the MTRCL not increase the train frequency of the LR? I once raised this question with the MTRCL, and I was told that the crux was not about money, but insufficient road space. According to the MTRCL, it is not feasible to provide service by coupled-set LRVs completely due to various reasons, for example, the turning of LRVs because they must share the use of road space with other vehicles.
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According to the replies provided by the Administration to written questions raised by Members in examining the Estimates of Expenditure 2013-2014, the numbers of the LR's service delays ranging from eight to 30 minutes are the highest among all railway lines and have been increasing annually, at 74 times, 78 times and 80 times from 2010 to 2012 respectively. I am even more concerned that two LR accidents had happened within the four months from May to August this year, resulting in one death and 77 injuries. What is the major cause? Because the LR is a rail system that takes up road space, which has become obsolete nowadays. Secretary, I can find no other example in the world where a railway with a daily patronage of 500 000 passengers is not provided with a dedicated system. In this regard, the LR has broken a world record, so to speak, and no other railways in the world can compare with it.
Lastly, representatives of MTRCL had stated in the meeting of the District Council that as the LR was incurring a loss, it was necessary to increase fare. Yet this Council does not have the relevant data. In fact, the LR's loss is borne by Hong Kong people as a whole because it needs to be subsidized by revenue from other sources. But if the LR is to be replaced by a completely new and more efficient railway system and can achieve a balanced budget at the existing fare level, it would mean that the fare of other railway lines can be adjusted downward.
In order to address the transport problems in Tuen Mun and Yuen Long, I have previously discussed the matter and possible solutions with MTRCL and some professionals. According to the consensus view, one feasible option is to build a viaduct railway along the existing LR tracks in order to replace the entire LR system gradually. During the construction period, the travelling public can still travel on the LR. We are confident that such an arrangement would not cause excessive inconvenience to the public. Moreover, after the completion of the new railway, road space would be released to allow free access for other road users.
By still turning a blind eye to the service quality of the LR and its future development, the Government has done a disservice to the residents in Tuen Mun and Yuen Long by ignoring their interests. During LEUNG Chun-ying's election campaign for the Chief Executive, the New People's Party had already reflected the local residents' dissatisfaction towards the LR. At that time, he had pledged seriously that he would consider the matter. Now, he has become the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4423
Chief Executive. Since he assumed office, I do not know whether he has tried travelling on the LR during the morning peak hours and gained some first-hand experience himself. Does he have the determination and courage to consider replacing the LR, that is, a rail system left over from historical mistakes?
Once again, I would like to call on Members' support for my amendment. Let me reassure Mr YICK that he needs not worry because I am merely suggesting that the relevant study be conducted. I think we should adopt an open mind regarding questions such as the technical feasibility or how much inconvenience would be created for the travelling public. I only know that the LR is incapable of further expansion, and even during the peak periods, 80% of the LRVs are single LRVs. Furthermore, the Hung Shui Kiu NDA would have a large population in future. What should be done then? As many Members opine that the LR cannot be replaced, what about the situation after one or two decades? Sooner or later, the LR would become an obsolete "monster".
I so submit.
MR SIN CHUNG-KAI (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the railway network in Hong Kong has become very comprehensive after developing for more than 10 years. Examples are the West Rail and Ma On Shan Rail developed previously as well as the West Island Line and Shatin to Central Link (SCL) to be commissioned in the coming years. We can see from the map that there are just a few things to do before we can build a railway network connecting different parts of Hong Kong. Firstly, we need a horizontal railway line connecting the eastern and western parts of the New Territories. Secondly, we should enhance the railway network on the Hong Kong Island, especially the connectivity of the southern and eastern parts of the Hong Kong Island with other districts.
Therefore, my amendment and speech mainly call on the Government to expedite the construction of the North Island Line, Siu Sai Wan Line, South Island Line (West), and so on, based on the local enhancement schemes mentioned in the consultation document for the Stage 2 public engagement exercise of the Review and Update of the Railway Development Strategy 2000 conducted in mid-2013, with a view to improving the connectivity of the Northwest New Territories with other areas.
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At the moment, it is in fact quite inconvenient for people from other parts of the territory to go to the eastern and southern parts of the Hong Kong Island, especially the Southern District, such as the Ocean Park ― of course, the South Island Line (East) will soon be commissioned ― as passengers usually have to travel by railway and then change to other feeder modes such as buses or minibuses. In addition, owing to the limitations of the road network in the Southern District, especially the frequent intermittent closures of the Aberdeen Tunnel, it would be difficult to meet the future additional transport demands by means of bus or minibus services.
Although the South Island Line (East) to be completed in 2015 can cater for the needs of residents in Wong Chuk Hang and Ap Lei Chau, it still cannot address the transport demands of residents in Aberdeen and Wah Fu. Coupled with the fact that the crux of the external transportation problem of the Southern District is the limitation of the road network design of the Hong Kong Island North, therefore Aberdeen and Wah Fu residents using land transport will still have to face the congestion problem in future.
As stated in the consultation document, "the room for increasing the traffic capacity of Pokfulam Road and Victoria Road in future is anticipated to be very limited. If the local road network could no longer carry the loading, it would not only impact on the daily travels of residents in the western part of the Southern District, but could also affect access to the Queen Mary Hospital. This would be rather undesirable". In the consultation document, the consultant proposed that the South Island Line (West) might be analysed in the Aberdeen Section and the Pokfulam Section, and suggested that we should first work on the Aberdeen Section and then the Pokfulam Section in future if necessary. The Democratic Party nonetheless does not agree with this.
We opine that the entire South Island Line (West) connecting the University of Hong Kong and the Wong Chuk Hang Station should be constructed in one go, so as to avoid heavy passenger load at the Admiralty Station upon the commissioning of the SCL in 2020, when the station becomes the interchange station of four railway lines, namely the Tsuen Wan Line, Island Line, South Island Line (East) and SCL. All railway passengers travelling to and from the Southern District will gather at the Admiralty Station for interchange. Moreover, the consultant also pointed out that the Tung Chung Line still has spare capacity to cope with the future additional demand from cross-harbour passengers. This further justifies the construction of the South LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4425
Island Line (West) to link up with the West Island Line, thereby facilitating passengers from the Southern District to cross the harbour using the Tung Chung Line, while passengers from the Northwest New Territories may interchange via the West Island Line for access to the Southern District, instead of interchanging at the Admiralty Station.
The Island Line is currently the major railway line connecting Hong Kong's core political and business areas in various districts, namely Sheung Wan, Central, Admiralty, Wan Chai and Causeway Bay. The consultation document also mentioned that the Island Line has a daily average patronage of approximately 830 000 in 2011. As the consultant has predicted, its patronage would further increase to 1.4 million trips per day by 2031 upon the completion of the SCL, the South Island Line (East), the West Island Line, and so on. Coupled with the fact that the Tseung Kwan O Line only stops at the Quarry Bay Station and the North Point Station, the loading of the Island Line is more substantial as cross-harbour passengers to Central often need to interchange at the North Point Station and share the same train with residents from the Eastern District of Hong Kong Island. According to the consultancy study, the average train loading during morning peak hours from the Tin Hau Station to the Causeway Bay Station and during evening peak hours from the Wanchai Station to the Causeway Bay Station currently remains at 70% or above. It is believed that the utilization of the entire railway network will only increase with the number of railway users.
Evidently, cross-harbour passengers, regardless of whether they come from the Northwest New Territories or the Hong Kong Island, will have to withstand the seriously overcrowded Island Line if they continue to use the existing Tsuen Wan Line or the future SCL. Therefore, the Democratic Party supports the construction of the North Island Line to cater for the future needs arising from increasing passenger trips of the Island Line.
The Democratic Party considers that two points mentioned in the Government's North Island Line proposal warrant our concern. Firstly, we suggest to adopt the "Interchange" Scheme instead of the "Swap" Scheme because the latter will sever the existing Island Line into two halves and thus affect the habits of most residents on the Hong Kong Island, thereby bringing inconveniences. Also, the consultancy study pointed out that the "Swap" Scheme has extended the existing Tung Chung Line eastward from the Hong Kong Station to the Chai Wan Station. And, subject to the restrictions of the 4426 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Tsing Ma Bridge, there will be a reduction of eight trains per hour. For this reason, we consider the "Interchange" Scheme more desirable than the "Swap" Scheme.
Another problem is that, as the proposed North Island Line is at the harbourfront, any works project that may have an implication on the Victoria Harbour will definitely arouse intense controversies. Even though the consultancy study has indicated that the North Island Line does not involve any reclamation, we still recommend the Government to conduct preliminary studies on the possible problems that it may encounter in advance (including the need for reclamation). An example is, while the Government proposed in the consultation document to provide a station at Causeway Bay North, it has previously stated that the provision of such station might be technically infeasible. And if land from the Victoria Park is used to build the station, it would be difficult for the Government to identify other land for recreational purpose as compensation. The Democratic Party fears that the proposed station at Causeway Bay North will end up being banned like SCL's Central South Station, which was originally planned to be the terminus of the SCL.
Lastly, I would like to talk about the Siu Sai Wan Line. Although the consultancy study has put forward the proposal of building the Siu Sai Wan Line, it seems that the consultant has strong reservation about it when compared with other projects being studied. For example, the consultant pointed out that "but considers that all these schemes would face considerable technical difficulties. Removal of certain buildings and facilities in the district may be required, causing considerable impacts on the local community". We acknowledge the technical difficulties faced by the Siu Sai Wan Line, but consider that they could be overcome. No matter which proposal will be adopted (noting that two proposals have been put forward in the report), the Siu Sai Wan Line should be constructed. We suggest that the Government should consider constructing the Siu Sai Wan Line to tie in with redevelopment projects in the area, such as the redevelopment of Yue Wan Estate, so as to minimize the impact on existing buildings and land users.
With these remarks, I propose the amendment. In addition, I would like to take this opportunity to thank Mr LEUNG Che-cheung. I have no intention to hijack his motion on the railway service in the Northwest New Territories, but just want to "take a free ride". Given that residents in the Northwest New Territories also have to face the congestion problem when they go to the Hong Kong Island, the construction of the North Island Line is therefore beneficial to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4427 them as well. As we all understand, the reality is that the working population mostly go to the northern part of the Hong Kong Island where the political, economic and financial centres are located. Thus, if we enhance the transportation network of other places but not the northern part of the Hong Kong Island, the problem of our transportation network would still remain unresolved.
Thank you, Deputy President.
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, when it comes to taking a free ride, nobody does it better than Mr SIN Chung-kai.
Deputy President, Hong Kong's mass transit system actually has four inherent deficiencies. The first one lies with the profit-making principle adopted by listed companies. There are conflicts between the provision of public transport and the status of being a listed company. Listed companies are operating for profits which often override people's need for public transport. As a result, Hong Kong people are forced to pay high fares. In particular, public transport services provided for remote or sparsely populated districts have been neglected. This is an obvious problem. The second deficiency refers to the imbalance in respect of overall transport planning between the urban areas and the New Territories, especially New Territories West. The third deficiency is regional imbalance, that is, there are serious bias and differences in the service provided in various regions. The fourth deficiency relates to the blunders in the provision of feeder services.
Hong Kong's transport service is seriously deformed as a whole. There are many different kinds of transport modes, with priority being given to railways, to be followed by franchised buses and public light buses. Regarding public light buses, there are two types of operation, namely red minibus and green minibus. Regarding franchised bus services, they are also provided by different companies. As a result, there is a huge difference between the services in various districts, for example, there is no red minibus and green minibus services in districts such as Tung Chung and Tin Shui Wai. Hence, transport services provided in various regions are seriously imbalanced. For example, feeder services for the rail system are available in some districts, but not in others. While the same railway service is provided between new towns and the urban areas through viaducts and tunnels, feeder services are completely unavailable in some regions. Therefore, Hong Kong's transport service as a whole is a 4428 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 complete mess and utterly confusing. It can even be said that one has to trust to luck with regard to transport development.
Regarding the increasing resources allocated by the Government for the development of the Island Line over the past few years, I have expressed strong criticisms and even voted against it on many occasions. I am not against the extension of the Island Line. But as the representative of public opinion in New Territories West, I absolutely cannot accept the proposal after listening to the Government's principles and rationale. Whenever the Government submits the relevant funding applications which include the extension of the Island Line to Kennedy Town, the Southern District, Aberdeen or other areas, it always indicates that one railway station would be provided for every 50 000 to 80 000 people. I have pointed out time and again that this government policy is discriminatory and biased as only one railway station has been provided for the entire population of 300 000 people in Tin Shui Wai, while only two railway stations have been provided for the entire population of 600 000 people in Tuen Mun.
Speaking of the development of the railway network, local residents in Tsuen Wan and Tuen Mun have already requested for the extension of the railway line from Tsuen Wan to Tuen Mun along the coastline as early as the 1980s. When the West Rail (WR) was constructed eventually, the Government quickly decided that its alignment would go through Kam Tin via a tunnel and then turn back to Yuen Long and Tin Shui Wai, to finally arrive at Tuen Mun. In the beginning, the WR's alignment would just terminate at Siu Hong. But with strong demand and pressures from different political parties and groupings on the Government, Mr Haider BARMA, the then Secretary for Transport, finally agreed to extend the WR to Tuen Mun Town Centre. At that time, many suggestions had been made to further extend the alignment to Butterfly Estate. Yet the Government was unwilling even to construct those several stations.
Nonetheless, the Government is very generous when it comes to railway development in the urban areas. In the past, the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) must raise its own capital for railway construction, while the Government would at most make injections into the projects and enter into the relevant financial agreements with the MTRCL in respect of profit-sharing and repayment. But in the past few years, the Government has become very generous and allocated tens of billions of public money to construct new railways. The completed railways would then be turned over to a profit-making LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4429 entity for reaping profits. Not only does the MTRCL need not make any payment to the Government, it would even be awarded with capital works contracts worth tens of billions of dollars. Finally, it can even make profit through railway operation. If that is the case, what about railway development in the New Territories? What about railway development in New Territories West? While the Government keeps on expanding the railway network to wealthy districts by public funds, the New Territories must continue to suffer from discrimination as well as inappropriate and unreasonable treatment.
Hence, as I have pointed out years ago, the hardship in New Territories West lies in the existence of the Light Rail (LR). The Government is always hiding behind the LR. I am sure that when the Secretary speaks later, he would talk about the profits made by the LR each year. In the past few years, the LR has been operating at a loss of over $100 million annually, with the largest loss recorded at $190 million. Since the merger of the two railway corporations, the LR no longer maintains an independent account. At present, the LR and other railway systems have been incorporated into one account, and the MTRCL even refuses to provide a separate financial statement for the LR. However, before an independent financial statement can be provided, we know that the LR has been operating at a loss of over $100 million annually.
As I have pointed out years ago, the LR is guilty of "seven sins", namely, exceedingly small platforms; excessively slow speed; too few train compartments, resulting in passengers having difficulties boarding the train due to small carrying capacity; accidents occur easily due to the overlapping of LR tracks and road surface; many passengers are forced to pay fines due to some serious faults in the ticketing facility; the LR system as a whole has taken up precious land resources, as well as poor operation and safety record in consideration of frequent accidents. I have already cited these "seven sins" at least some 10 years ago, and have been proposing the abolition of the LR. The LR system was an idea conjured up largely by Alan SCOTT, the Secretary of Transport in the British Hong Kong era. As pointed out by some Members, there is a mismatch between the actual function of the LR and the existing development of the local districts or regions. While the overall design of LR is intended to provide feeder service for communities with a population of several ten thousand people, the existing population of Tuen Mun has already exceeded 600 000, and the total population of Yuen Long and Tin Shui Wai is also in the range of 600 000. In future, Hung Shui Kiu will have a population of 200 000 4430 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 after development. Such a population must be served by a mass transit system, rather than a feeder system in the form of the LR.
Therefore, regarding the development of a new generation tramway proposed by the Hong Kong Tramways Limited recently, I consider that the coverage areas should not be limited to Tin Shui Wai, Yuen Long, Tuen Mun or East Kowloon. Instead, consideration should be given to the territory-wide development of trams, so as to replace certain existing transport systems which have become obsolete, such as the LR and a number of bus interchange schemes. Should they be replaced by a new system? I think the Government should study this proposal, while pilot schemes can be implemented in Yuen Long, Tin Shui Wai, Tuen Mun and East Kowloon. As proposed, the system is environmentally friendly, economical and effective, and does not take up any road space. Regarding the viaduct railway proposed by the Government, I am against it because I think its construction cost is basically too expensive, while the experience in many other cities, especially Sydney in Australia, has already proved that it is a failure.
Hence, in this connection, my proposed amendment mainly covers two aspects. Firstly, I propose that every 50 000 to 80 000 people in New Territories West may use one railway station, thus bringing the ratio in New Territories West on a par with that in urban areas. Deputy President, in some districts, one railway station would be constructed for less than 50 000 people. A case in point is the West Island Line. According to the then planning, one railway station would be constructed for 46 000 people. For the South Island Line, the ratio is one railway station for 30 000 people, while that for the Shatin to Central Link is 38 000. All these figures can be found in government papers.
Therefore, I implore Members of the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong (DAB) to do some good for residents in the New Territories. The DAB, as the ruling party of Hong Kong, or so to speak, has three Members in the Legislative Council representing New Territories West. Whenever the subject of the Island Line was discussed, no Member of the DAB would speak out even though I screamed myself hoarse against the Government's discrimination against New Territories West. Only Mr LAU Wong-fat would sometimes speak in support or remark sarcastically that the Government was discriminating against and targeting Tuen Mun. But regarding the discrimination suffered by New Territories West, nothing has been heard from Members of the DAB over the years.
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Hence, I thank Mr LEUNG Che-cheung for proposing this motion today and showing his concern about the problems in New Territories West. Over the years, residents in New Territories West have suffered from discrimination, and this is an excellent opportunity to bring them justice today. My proposed amendment would rarely be passed, and I also rarely support the amendments proposed by Mr Michael TIEN. But today, I will support his amendment, and I also hope Members will see clearly the particular injustice and discrimination suffered by residents in New Territories West as a result of the existing mass transit system, so that justice can finally be served for residents in New Territories West and the people of Hong Kong. This is the only way that the existing errors and deficiencies of the entire railway system can be rectified and justice be served.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the motion proposed by Mr LEUNG Che-cheung today is mainly on "Enhancing the railway service in the Northwest New Territories" while Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, Mr Frankie YICK, Miss Alice MAK, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr Michael TIEN and Mr SIN Chung-kai have proposed amendments to the original motion.
First of all, I would like to highlight the Government's policy on transport. At present, among some 13 million passenger trips every day in Hong Kong, 90% travel on public transport. The percentage is probably the highest among other cities in the world compared with Singapore at around 50% and Shanghai at about 35%. This shows that our public transport system is very efficient.
The Government has all along made long-term and comprehensive planning on the public transport of Hong Kong and has developed a passenger transport system with railway as the backbone, as rail transport can ease huge passenger flow, alleviate road traffic congestion and reduce vehicle-induced air pollution; it is also more environmentally friendly. Nonetheless, we do not let railways monopolize public transport. Railways account for 40% of public transport while franchised buses, being an equally important mode of public transport, account for 32%. The Government's goal is to build a balanced transport network for the provision of diversified transport linkages.
Next, I would like to respond to the issue on the transport linkage network of the Northwest New Territories. In view of the development and population 4432 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 growth in the Northwest New Territories, the West Rail and the Light Rail networks have been expanding in recent years to meet the transport demands of residents. After the commissioning of the West Rail and Light Rail Tin Shui Wai Extension in 2003, as well as the Kowloon Southern Link of the West Rail in 2009, the distance between the Northwest New Territories and the urban areas in Kowloon has been greatly shortened. In general, it now takes approximately 36 minutes to travel from Tuen Mun to Tsim Sha Tsui East. To facilitate passengers travelling on the Light Rail, the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) provides feeder bus service at a number of Light Rail stations.
Apart from railway service, there are currently some 70 bus routes in Yuen Long and Tuen Mun which run within the district as well as across districts. The Tai Lam Tunnel Bus Interchange and the Tuen Mun Road Bus-Bus Interchange, which came into full operation in late July this year, are also important transport facilities within Yuen Long and Tuen Mun districts, enabling passengers to enjoy interchange fare concessions and franchised bus service with wider coverage.
In parallel, at present, the Northwest New Territories is linked up by a number of trunk roads including Tuen Mun Road, Yuen Long Highway, Castle Peak Road, Kam Tin Road, Tai Lam Tunnel, Tsing Long Highway, and so on forming a rather comprehensive road network. Government departments responsible for transport will closely monitor local development and the trend of transport demand, so as to implement timely road improvement projects and transport management initiatives to support the railway network and other public transport services, with a view to meeting the overall transport demand in the Northwest New Territories.
Apart from road network within the district, the Government commenced in mid-2013 the construction of the Tuen Mun-Chek Lap Kok Link (TM-CLK Link) to support the future development of the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge (HZMB) and nearby regions. The southern connection of the TM-CLK Link is estimated to be substantially completed by the end of 2016 in order to tie in with the targeted commissioning of the HZMB. The northern connection will be completed by the end of 2018 so as to cope with the transport demand of the district in a timely manner. Upon the commissioning of the northern connection, a direct passage will be provided to facilitate travelling from various parts in the Northwest New Territories to the HZMB Hong Kong Boundary LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4433
Crossing Facilities and Lantau Island, including the Hong Kong International Airport.
Mr LEUNG Che-cheung and a number of Members who propose amendments are all concerned about the implementation of the Railway Development Strategy 2000 (RDS-2000).
The RDS-2000 was announced in 2000. It mapped out the railway network expansion plan up to 2016 to echo the sustainable public transport policy of adopting railway as the backbone of our passenger transport system, with a view to providing the people of Hong Kong with convenient and safe public transport services at reasonable prices. Subsequently, the railway network of Hong Kong had expanded rapidly, with a total of eight railway projects commissioning in succession between 2002 and 2009, namely the Tseung Kwan O Line, West Rail Line, Tsim Sha Tsui Extension of the East Rail, Ma On Shan Line, Disney Line, Lok Ma Chau Spur Line, Tseung Kwan O Extension (Phase II) and Kowloon Southern Link.
Currently, we are pressing ahead the construction of five new railways, among which the West Island Line, South Island Line (East), Kwun Tong Line Extension, and Hong Kong Section of Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link will come into operation in the coming two to three years while the Shatin to Central Link is scheduled for completion in phases in 2018 and 2020. Some of these railway projects are those identified for priority development in the RDS-2000 while some are newly added projects in response to public feedback and development needs of the districts.
I believe we all understand that railway projects have profound impacts on society, people's livelihood and economic development. It often takes eight to 10 years for a railway project to take shape from formulation of ideas, conceptual planning, consultation with stakeholders, detailed design, to actual construction and completion. We will not rigidly stick to the idea of "development first to be followed by provision of railway services". Instead, planning will be made in tandem. To facilitate an early planning for the territory-wide railway development blueprint after 2020, as well as enhance the integrity and integration capability of the railway network, the Government commissioned in 2011 the consultancy study for the Review and Update of the RDS-2000, so as to cater for the latest development needs of society.
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During the Stage 1 public engagement exercise between April and July last year, three major regional railway corridors were featured for public discussion, namely, the Northern Link, Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Express Line (WEL), and Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan, as mentioned in Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's original motion. From February to May this year, we convened the Stage 2 public engagement exercise which focused on seven local enhancement schemes for railway lines including the Tuen Mun South Extension, construction of Hung Shui Kiu Station and other railway schemes as proposed by Mr SIN Chung-kai in his amendment just now.
The schemes proposed in the two stages are conceptual proposals which the consultant, upon preliminary study, considered worthy of public discussion. These schemes include the proposals put forward in the RDS-2000 that are not yet implemented, as well as other new concepts submitted by the Government and the public. We hope that public engagement can be promoted as early as possible from a forward-looking perspective so as to plan our future railway development jointly with members of the public. Local opinions and aspirations received from the Tuen Mun and Yuen Long District Councils as well as on other occasions had also been passed to the consultant for consideration.
In Mr Albert CHAN's amendment, he has mentioned a railway between Tuen Mun and Chek Lap Kok. Such concept is similar with the Domestic Spur Line of the WEL in terms of alignment and function which falls within the scope of the Review and Update of the RDS-2000.
Regarding the linkage systems in the Hung Shui Kiu New Development Area (NDA) proposed in Miss Alice MAK's amendment, it falls within the scope of the Hung Shui Kiu NDA Planning and Engineering Study conducted by the Development Bureau. Public consultation will be carried out in due course on the transport arrangements of the NDA.
At the moment, the consultant is collating the public views collected such that the planning of the major regional railway corridors and local enhancement schemes can be further optimized in a co-ordinated manner. As highlighted by a number of Members, including Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Miss Alice MAK, in their amendments, railway development and town planning are closely related and involve holistic consideration. As such, the consultant has liaised with the government departments concerned during the study to exchange the latest planning data, so as to make reliable forecasts for submission of overall LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4435 recommendations to the Government. We will also monitor the whole study to ensure that all processes are properly conducted.
The consultant is expected to submit its report to the Government by the end of this year. The Government will consider the consultant's overall recommendations in formulating the railway development blueprint for the years after 2020, on the three premises of responding to transport demand, being cost-effectiveness and dovetailing with the development needs of NDAs. Hopefully, we can give an account of the way forward for railway projects by next year. In implementing individual projects in future, we still need to conduct in-depth technical studies and further public consultation on such projects will be carried out.
A number of Members query whether the Light Rail has become a "chicken rib". In the original motion of Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, he has particularly proposed to extend the Light Rail line to Tuen Mun Area 54. To tie in with the development of Tuen Mun Area 54, the Government has already commissioned a transport impact assessment. Having examined the results of the assessment, the Government intends to build roads in Area 54 and construct a bus terminus at the centre of the area as well as bus stops along the roads so as to cater for public transport demand arising from the housing development of Area 54. By then, local residents may commute to and from Siu Hong Station on foot or by using the feeder service. They can also take other public transport travelling to and from other regions. As the above arrangements should be able to cater for the development of the area, the Government has no plan to construct a Light Rail station in Tuen Mun Area 54 for the time being.
Mr Frankie YICK suggested that a comprehensive transport study should be conducted while Mr Michael TIEN proposed to review the Light Rail system. Upon the completion of the study for the Review and Update of the RDS-2000, we will, in the light of the planning and implementation of various major transport infrastructure projects (including railway development projects), commence studies on the long-term development and management of public transport in the territory, including a review on the Light Rail system, as well as formulate the future public transport strategies.
I would like to give an account of the general directions of the long-term transport strategies of the Third Comprehensive Transport Study completed in 1999. Such general directions in fact still apply today which mainly include: 4436 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 better integration of transport and land use planning; better use of railways as the backbone of the passenger transport system; provision of better public transport services and facilities; wider use of advanced technologies in transport management; and implement more environmentally-friendly transport measures. We find that these directions are still applicable today, though we certainly have to be forward-looking. As such, just now I indicated that we would conduct further studies on the long-term development and management of the overall public transport after the completion of the RDS-2000.
On the improvement of railway service, the MTRCL has striven to provide safe, comfortable and highly efficient train services. Since 2012, the MTRCL has launched the Listening • Responding Programme to enhance train services. As a result, there are an additional 62 000 train trips a year to boost capacity by 150 million passenger trips. This year, the MTRCL further enhances train services of a number of railway lines to cater for passengers' needs. For example, the West Rail Line has operated an additional 60 train trips a week since August this year.
Moreover, the construction work of the Shatin to Central Link has commenced. Upon the commissioning of the section from Tai Wai to Hung Hom in 2018, the existing Ma On Shan Line will be connected with the West Rail Line from Tai Wai via Kowloon East, thus forming the East West Corridor. Upon the commissioning of the East West Corridor, the number of train cars of the West Rail Line will be gradually increased from the present seven to eight. By then, the overall passenger capacity of the West Rail Line will be further increased by at least 14%.
In considering further developing the West Rail Line, we will also closely monitor the changes in demand for the Light Rail. The MTRCL sets out five-year operation plans for the Light Rail annually and in the foreseeable future, the operation can still cope with the increased number of passengers. In addition, the MTRCL is carrying out the first phase refurbishment programme for a total of 69 Light Rail trains so as to enhance its passenger capacity and train facilities including seats and handrails. So far, some 50 plus trains in the first phase have completed their refurbishment. The MTRCL will subsequently carry out phases two and three of the refurbishment programme, and the average passenger capacity of each Light Rail train will be increased by 8% from the original 227 to 245 in the future.
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Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Miss Alice MAK and Mr Michael TIEN have expressed views on perfecting the MTR Fare Adjustment Mechanism (FAM) and monthly ticket concessions. As we all know, in response to the request of the public on MTR's service performance, we announced in early this year a new FAM, under which the coverage of the existing mechanism has been expanded, with a view to incorporating profitability and service performance of the MTRCL, as well as public affordability, as factors for consideration.
The new mechanism will retain the existing direct-drive FAM formula, but with the calculation of the Productivity Factor value being subject to a new, objective and transparent methodology. Under the new methodology, the Productivity Factor value will increase from the original 0.1% to 0.6% and as a result, the fare increase rate in 2013 has dropped from 3.2% under the original mechanism to 2.7%. Moreover, an affordability cap is set up to link with the median monthly household income. A "profit sharing" mechanism is also introduced while a "service performance" arrangement is put in place whereby a fine will be imposed for unsatisfactory performance.
With the new fare concession schemes including the "Monthly Pass Extra" applicable on the West Rail Line, the new FAM can relieve the fare burden on medium and long-distance passengers living in remote areas. Take the trip from Tuen Mun to Central as an example. If a passenger takes 40 trips every month with the "Tuen Mun―Nam Cheong Monthly Pass Extra", as an additional 25% fare discount is provided for onward domestic journeys reaching stations not covered by the pass, each trip will only cost $19.3, representing a discount of $5.2 or around 20% on ticket fare.
The Government will closely monitor the utilization of the MTRCL's fare promotions. The MTRCL will also review the effectiveness of such promotions and consider whether new promotions should be introduced having regard to the result of the review and according to the principle of sustaining its financial viability as a listed company. In addition, passengers using Octopus cards on the West Rail and Light Rail can enjoy free rides on designated MTR Bus routes and may also get a free transfer to the Light Rail at designated West Rail stations.
On the improvement of station facilities proposed by Mr LEUNG Che-cheung and Miss Alice MAK, all stations along the West Rail Line have been equipped with public toilets to cater for passengers' needs. The MTRCL 4438 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 has been actively exploring ways to upgrade train conditions by inputting more resources as far as practicable, so as to provide convenience to passengers in need. These include retrofitting facilities such as passenger lifts, stair lifts, wheelchair aids, ramps, wide ticket gates, and so on. At present, at least one barrier-free access is provided in every MTR station and all new stations will be provided with such access in future.
Miss Alice MAK proposes to enhance the safety of the Light Rail system. The Government attaches importance to the operation safety of railways, including the Light Rail. The MTRCL will deploy officers of supervisory rank to measure the speed of running Light Rail trains with the use of laser guns at different time and sections. A pilot test of installing fixed speed cameras at appropriate locations within the Light Rail network is introduced to step up the supervision on the operation of the Light Rail. Light Rail captains are also reminded from time to time to stay alert, concentrate on road conditions and drive safely.
Deputy President, the Government will continue to closely monitor the development of districts. Road improvement projects and traffic management initiatives will be introduced in due course to cater for the development and strengths of the railway network and other public transport networks so as to respond to the overall transport demand of the Northwest New Territories.
I so submit.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the community often criticizes the Government for grabbing land blindly. But we are also worried that apart from grabbing land blindly, it will also build railways blindly and promote integration blindly. We do not want to see such situation. Of course we fully understand that residents in the Northwest New Territories need quicker transport to go to the urban areas for work. But in our view, we must first carry out holistic planning, followed by consultation.
Regarding holistic planning, very often we need to take into consideration the development of population, land and housing in the district. After considering such factors, it is certainly important to provide ancillary transport facilities. Without these facilities, the deplorable situation of Tuen Mun and Tin Shui Wai in the past would recur. At that time, people who moved to these LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4439 districts were pioneers as the Government had not provided any ancillary transport facilities. As such, the Government must not make the same mistake again by moving people to the district, without giving due regard to transport. Instead, holistic consideration must be made.
Meanwhile, we are also worried that once railways are built, the construction of numerous buildings and housing estates would follow, which may have great impact on the overall environment. As such, consultation should be conducted in this regard. In Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's motion as well as other amendments, different construction projects are suggested. In our view, for those projects which have reached a consensus, such as the extension of the West Rail Line to Tuen Mun Pier, they should be implemented expeditiously. On the contrary, for other projects, such as the construction of the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan, I think consultation should be carried out.
As we all know, the area is quiet and peaceful, and once a railway is built, the construction work would not stop upon the commissioning of the railway. Normally, the Government will allow the MTR Corporation Limited to develop large housing estates once a railway is built. The problem of screen-like buildings will arise. Do we want screen-like buildings? Do local residents want such buildings? It is certainly desirable to bring convenience to residents by constructing railways. But do the residents want such a quiet district to be completely converted into a new town with many screen-like buildings? We need to make assessment before we know the answer.
Regarding the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan, while Mr Michael TIEN advises that it is not necessary to construct the railway along the coast but by the side, no matter how it is constructed, detailed consultation on the overall planning must be conducted with the local residents. Is this a phenomenon in Hong Kong that once a site is available, railways and housing will be built immediately? Or should we first examine where to build housing and railways? Therefore, we think that detailed consultation on the various proposals put forward by our colleagues should be conducted first. As such, we can hardly agree that the Government should first build railways by any means.
On the other hand, the construction of certain stations is another issue. Miss Alice MAK suggests that Hung Shui Kiu Station be constructed and raises the question of whether a new railway system should be planned in Hung Shui Kiu Station operating within the district. But this question involves our 4440 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 perspectives on the development of Hung Shui Kiu. As consultation is still underway, we do not want to put forward proposals before we have received all the opinions. We are worried that based on the saying of the Government, the development of Hung Shui Kiu will in fact be another blind integration as Hung Shui Kiu will become a service area for Qianhai with 50 000 ― a figure provided by the Government, I do not know if that is the real figure ― job opportunities in logistics and 50 000 job opportunities in hotel services and shopping centres. If that is the case, the overall development of Hung Shui Kiu will be changed. The place will develop a culture of shopping, and become a district to provide services to Qianhai. Is such development really necessary? We are deeply in doubt.
Let us imagine. Apart from the 100 000 people who will be working in the district, another 100 000 people or 150 000 people will live there (the current number of residents is 10 000 plus). Will the completion of all housing estates, there will be a population of some 200 000 in the district. We should consider whether Hung Shui Kiu should be developed under such mode of development. Consultation should first be conducted instead of developing a site once it is available, then building linkage roads and implementing incessant development projects. This would cause great damage to an area. We need not blindly turn all areas in Hong Kong into new towns. In our view, consultation should first be conducted on the various proposed recommendations.
Lastly, on the issue about the Light Rail, there are suggestions of extending the Tuen Mun line to Area 54. If Area 54 is to be developed, we certainly hope that transport arrangements will be made. However, just now the Secretary pointed out that a number of colleagues have described the Light Rail as a "chicken rib", which is tasteless to eat and wasteful to throw away. My standpoint is it is better to endure short-term pain than prolong the agony. In fact, every morning, students in Tin Shui Wai have to squeeze in the train compartments of the Light Rail like canned sardines. Yet the requests for increasing the number of train compartments of the Light Rail have met with many obstacles. As the Light Rail is reluctant to add more train compartments and its trains are running at slow speed, the overall traffic of Tin Shui Wai is slowed down as a result. The Light Rail trains also take up road space. If we go to Tin Shui Wai, we will find that all buses have to wait particularly long at the traffic lights, not only the traffic lights for vehicles, but also those for the Light Rail. In my view, the Light Rail itself is causing inconvenience to all the residents in Tin Shui Wai and so it is better to endure short-term pain than prolong the agony. Of course, the Light Rail cannot be abolished overnight. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4441
Planning has to be made to replace it with other railways. Given that the West Rail service has already covered Tin Shui Wai, why not extend the service to more places so as to provide the public with a more convenient way to travel to the urban areas? Therefore, we consider it necessary to carry out re-planning on the Light Rail (The buzzer sounded) …
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Your speaking time is up.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, thank you.
MR TONY TSE (in Cantonese): Deputy President, our railway network is the backbone of Hong Kong's public transport system. It carries over 4.5 million passenger trips per day, accounting for about 40% of all public transport passenger trips. As mentioned by the Chief Executive in his Policy Address, the development of rail transport not only can significantly speed up passenger flow, but also alleviate road traffic congestion and reduce vehicle-induced air pollution. The development potential of areas along the railway lines can also be unleashed to facilitate economic development. Therefore, according to the Government, the long-term planning for public transport will revolve around a railway-based network complemented by bus services. By 2020, it is expected that areas inhabited by more than 70% of the population in Hong Kong will be brought into the railway catchment area. The MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) is a public utility of which the Government has a shareholding of 77%. Although a listed company, the MTRCL is not just another private enterprise. Over the years, the Government has granted property development rights to the MTRCL as a means to finance the construction of railways to tally with the development of the Government's mass transport policy. Hence, the public is gravely concerned and has certain expectation about the operation, services and fares of the MTRCL, and even the use of proceeds from property development along the railway alignment.
Of these, the fare of the MTRCL is undoubtedly the issue of most concern to the public because the MTRCL is a public utility and, to a certain extent, it has been given much support from the Government policy-wise. Apart from financial support, the MTRCL has also been awarded with property development rights so that more railways could be built. As such, while the MTRCL can 4442 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 make profits from railway operation, it can also earn huge profits through property development and investment over the years. If those shopping malls are not located above stations along railway lines and hence, enjoy the advantage of direct assess by railway passengers, I believe that the MTRCL's proceeds from property each year would be seriously affected, and its value would not be as high as it is today. Therefore, there is a direct and mutually beneficial relationship between the MTRCL's railway operation and proceeds from investment in property development projects along railway lines, and I think the Government is duty-bound to exercise stringent control over fare adjustments of the MTRCL.
Of course, I understand that as a listed company, the MTRCL must take care of the interests of shareholders. But I also believe that most of its shareholders would consider the MTRCL more of a property investment company than a transport enterprise. Given that the growth of the MTRCL's profit from property projects along the railway lines is brought by the convenience of railway access, I consider that it is justifiable and reasonable to use part of its proceeds from property projects to subsidize railway operation. Nonetheless, no consideration has been given to the MTRCL's proceeds from property development rights under the existing Fare Adjustment Mechanism; I suggest that the Government may consider introducing a mechanism of levy on profits made by the MTRCL from property development projects along railway lines. When the profits made by the MTRCL from property development projects along railway lines exceed a certain level, it is required to turn in a certain percentage of the proceeds to the Government to subsidize railway operation, in order to stabilize and lower the level of fares.
Moreover, as we all know, transport expenses have created a certain amount of livelihood pressures on the grassroots ― including of course the residents in the Northwest New Territories ― and affected their work and daily life directly. In order to encourage more residents living in remote areas to work in other districts, the Government should comprehensively review and realign the railway fare regime, formulate holistic policies and measures on the provision of transport fare concessions, introduce the principle of "raising short-haul fares and lowering long-haul fares", provide transport subsidies in cash, and so on, in order to alleviate the burden of daily transport expenses on low-income earners living in remote areas.
Deputy President, I am aware that the public is also gravely concerned about the crowdedness of train compartments. It is learnt that as a design LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4443 standard for railway train compartments, many major Asian cities would specify the requirement on the appropriate number of standees per square meter. Should a similar design standard be adopted for Hong Kong's railway system? In fact, many people are extremely dissatisfied with the increasing crowdedness of MTR train compartments and queried whether the Government has properly monitored MTR services and urged the MTRCL to improve and enhance its service standards. Hence, having asked a relevant written question at the Council meeting last week, I appeal to the Secretary again today that instead of avoiding the question, the Government should practically set a specific indicator and target in respect of passenger density in a train compartment, so as to improve the existing crowdedness of train compartments.
Deputy President, I so submit.
MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the subject of today's motion debate is "Enhancing the railway service in the Northwest New Territories". Major proposals in the original motion as well as the amendments include expanding the railway network, procuring more train compartments, reducing fare, increasing service frequencies, and so on. In principle, all these proposals should be adopted because these districts are so densely-populated that the ratio between patronage and train service has become unreasonable during peak periods, resulting in serious crowdedness. As mentioned by some Members just now, the train compartments are so crowded that the passengers' faces almost touch one another. If no improvement is made, the situation will just continue to worsen.
Take for example Sun Yuen Long Centre. If the Secretary had visited the place, he would know that the station is very crowded. I was told by the residents that during peak hours, especially the morning peak, they could not board the train even after waiting for three trains because the compartments were already packed with people. After the summer holiday, the West Rail (WR) has, as a last resort, increased one train trip from Tin Shui Wai between 8 am to 8.30 am daily and the situation has improved slightly. But that alone cannot resolve the problem because not much improvement can be made by increasing one more train trip. Evidently, the number of train trips and train compartments must be increased. However, can the problem be resolved then? I do not think so. At present, the Government blindly increases the population in these districts, without any regard to the provision of local community facilities 4444 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 including ancillary transport services. Let me illustrate with the example of Yuen Long. At present, there are plans to build several residential buildings above the WR station adjacent to Sun Yuen Long Centre, which will increase the population by 3 000-odd people. Recently, population in Yuen Long has increased substantially and the trend is set to continue. Any person who has been to Yuen Long Main Road would know that during holidays, the place is so crowded that pedestrians can hardly move forward.
Having talked about the pavement, I will now go on to talk about the Light Rail (LR). The crowdedness at LR station platforms is even more hazardous. While the platforms are small, they are always packed with passengers, posing some serious safety risks. However, the Government has completely disregarded these problems and is still trying to increase the population in these districts. As I see it, increasing train trips would be futile under these circumstances because with such a large number of passengers, no improvement can be made at all. The core problem would not be resolved even by expanding the peripheral railway networks because with such a large population in the town centre, interchange services are required for the residents to go to the railway stations. The issue of supporting services has not been addressed at all. This is actually a very serious problem. If the Government is just working blindly without any comprehensive planning, its measures are at best piecemeal even with the expansion of the network or other facilities. The problem is still left unresolved.
The Hung Shui Kiu development in the New Territories West is mentioned in both the original motion and the amendments. According to the original motion, an additional station should be built at Hung Shui Kiu. However, many problems would be created by the provision of this additional station, such as lengthening the travelling time. If there is no increase in train trips, the number of waiting passengers in each station will increase, and the problem of crowdedness will be further aggravated, resulting in a vicious cycle. More importantly, after the provision of this additional station, the Government would arbitrarily increase the population of Hung Shui Kiu by 200 000. How can we cope with this situation by just adding one station? How can we solve the problem as there is only one railway line to serve the increasing population? Notwithstanding the increase in train trips, the problem will not be resolved as there are still a large number of passengers. This is a very serious problem. Hence, the problem will never go away if the Government does not incorporate the development of transport network into town planning. Moreover, insofar as LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4445 the current development of the railway network is concerned, the Government's approach is that population should always come first, regardless of other factors. In other words, development will be propelled by population growth, which is disastrous. When the Hung Shui Kiu development was discussed, we had asked the Government what other supporting measures would be adopted to cope with the development of this new town. But actually, the Government did not have any new measures, and there was nothing new in its reply. From road transport to rail transport network, it was more or less the same as the current situation, and there was no improvement at all.
(THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair)
President, that is really disastrous. As I see it, if we keep talking about increasing the population today without making any comprehensive consideration, the problems would not be resolved at all. In my view, it is most important to have comprehensive community planning, instead of blindly adding something here and something there because the community environment cannot be changed. Take for example Yuen Long Main Road. How can the environment be changed? On both sides of the road, there are buildings, pavements, shops and vehicles. How can further changes be made? There is no way to change the environment. Without proper population planning, I think there is no chance to resolve all these problems.
Separately, I would like to talk about the Government's handling of the LR. As a matter of principle, the Government still wants to retain the LR. I think this is inappropriate because the LR has a huge impact on Yuen Long and Tin Shui Wai Town Centre. As the LR tracks take up road spaces, there is no much room for manoeuvre for other road users such as franchised buses and private cars. Hence, in the long run, I think the LR should be abolished and replaced by other transport modes, so that road space will no longer be occupied by the LR. Otherwise, there is no way to resolve the transport problems in the entire area of Yuen Long and Tin Shui Wai.
Regarding railway development in Tin Shui Wai, the Government has indicated that a viaduct section would be constructed. Although the viaduct section is a better option, would the private life of residents be affected? This is a factor which must be considered by the authorities. Hence, I consider that 4446 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 under the circumstances, the Government should duly consider public opinion, conduct more consultation and put more emphasis on the views of the residents.(The buzzer sounded)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, your speaking time is up.
MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, first of all, I would like to thank Mr LEUNG Che-cheung for proposing the original motion so that we can make our voice be heard regarding the railway service in the Northwest New Territories. For people of Hong Kong, railway is a very important mode of transport and closely related to their daily life. I recall that on a previous occasion, Mr WONG Kwok-hing was late for a Council meeting due to service disruption of the West Rail (WR). Eventually, that meeting was adjourned due to a lack of quorum. This example illustrates clearly the utmost importance of maintaining a stable railway service with extensive coverage. As a resident of Yuen Long and an elected Member representing New Territories West, I am gravely concerned about the railway service in the Northwest New Territories, so much so that "my strong criticisms are made out of my deep love for it". As a resident of Yuen Long and a Tsuen Wan District Council member, I would like to talk about the future development of the Light Rail (LR) in Yuen Long as well as Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan (Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link).
Let me talk about the LR first. Just now, a number of Members opined that instead of being a railway line, the LR is really just a pile of scrap iron. Commissioned in 1988, the LR now operates 12 routes. Let me first discuss the service frequency. During the morning peak every day, most people cannot squeeze in the train even after waiting for two trains, which is really very frustrating. Passengers waiting on the open platform can easily fall onto the tracks inadvertently, resulting in accidents. In order to resolve this problem, we suggest that more trips be run by coupled-set Light Rail Vehicles (LRVs). During the peak hours, coupled-set LRVs would only run on three routes, while the remaining routes are all run by single LRVs. The passenger capacity of coupled-set LRVs is two times that of single LRVs, that is, a single LRV can carry 200 passengers, and a coupled-set LRV can carry 400 passengers. We consider that more coupled-set LRVs should be deployed when necessary in order to relieve the overcrowding situation.
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In the past, there were queries as to why the LR would have problems. That is because as in the case of trams on the Hong Kong Island, the LR must intersect with other vehicles on the road. Hence, the LR is also part of the traffic flow. If train frequency is increased without due consideration to the availability of sufficient road space, congestion would be further aggravated. If the LR is taken away from the road space, the problem would be resolved. Therefore, take the example of Yuen Long Main Road. Suggestions have been made by Members that a viaduct section be constructed. However, I consider this option not feasible because it will affect the scenery or even fung shui, which will definitely draw much opposition.
Actually, how long is Yuen Long Main Road? The road is 1.2 km long from west to east, which is roughly the distance between the Legislative Council and the International Finance Centre. In fact, the distance is not that far. If a viaduct section cannot be constructed, what about building a tunnel? Let us consider some examples. The mini jumbo drilling machine had been used to construct the Kwun Tong Line Extension. Unlike conventional drilling machines, the mini jumbo is a compact driller, and no explosives would be used during the works. Instead, pressures are applied to blast through the concrete, which makes the machine ideal for narrow construction environment. We consider that if the entire LR system can be moved underground by building a tunnel beneath Yuen Long Main Road, not only can the road space of Yuen Long Main Road be released, the congestion of Yuen Long Main Road can also be resolved in the long run. In that case, people will not be so dissatisfied with the LR. We hope the Government can consider this once-and-for-all cure.
Separately, we suggest that the service area of the LR should be suitably expanded. For example, the LR service should be extended to Tuen Mun Area 54 and to Pok Oi Hospital beyond the Yuen Long Terminus. There is indeed an urgent need for such services. At present, access to Pok Oi Hospital is extremely inconvenient, and patients must use interchange service before they can ride on LR. Some residents even have no idea how to go to Pok Oi Hospital. If one LR station can be added to extend its service to Pok Oi Hospital, I think it will bring much benefit to the residents in Yuen Long.
I would also like to talk about the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link. The proposed Link was jointly conceived by the Tsuen Wan District Council and Tuen Mun District Council in 2009. As the Chief Executive often says, "There is wisdom among the general public, and the general public have wisdom." We 4448 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 had jointly conceived this proposed Link for the Government's consideration. This proposed Link is also featured in the Government's consultation document entitled "Our Future Railway" released in 2011. Yet the consultation document also states that: (a) There is insufficient population to support this rail; (b) This Link will overlap with the WR alignment; and (c) The Government points out that local residents along the alignment would object to the proposal. Technically, the construction of a coastal rail would present much difficulty, and if a tunnel option is adopted, the cost would be very high.
I consider that all these reasons are unfounded. Firstly, regarding the argument of insufficient population, our previous assessment shows that by 2021, total daily passenger flow of the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link would be as many as 237 600 passenger trips, which is even higher than the current Ma On Shan Rail or even the Tung Chung Line. Compared on the basis of passenger flow per km, the passenger volume of the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link is higher than that of the WR, the Ma On Shan Rail and the Tung Chung Line. In particular, Members should note that while the population for the South Island Line is likewise insufficient, the project has been given the green light. Hence, we consider that insufficient population is just an excuse.
Moreover, technically speaking, we have never requested the Government to construct the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link as a major rail because a medium rail would suffice. While a medium rail is much smaller in scale, the Government has chosen to illustrate the project with this picture in the consultation document, that is, a viaduct section to be constructed outside the local housing estates. By showing this picture, I think the Government is trying to scare off the residents, so that they would not support the proposal. In our view, it is not a problem of not being able but not willing to get things done.
I think that if the Government really wants to improve people's accessibility, the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link can be extended further to Sha Tin so that it can function as an interchange between the East Rail (ER) and the WR. In case of any service disruption of the ER, the passengers can still access the WR via the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link. Similar examples can also be found in Japan. Why can't this be done by the Government? As well said in this ancient Chinese text, "In such a thing as taking the Tai mountain under your arm, and leaping over the north sea with it, if you say to people 'I am not able to do it,' that is a real case of not being able. In such a matter as breaking off a LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4449 branch from a tree at the order of a superior, if you say to people 'I am not able to do it,' that is a case of not doing it, it is not a case of not being able to do it."1
President, I so submit.
MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): President, first of all, I declare that I am an independent non-executive director of the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL). President, the Northwest New Territories including Yuen Long and Tuen Mun has a long history of being a well-known agricultural and fishery area in Hong Kong that is teeming with commercial and trade activities. After years of development, there are now three new towns in this area, as well as a total population of close to 1.1 million people. To tie in with Hong Kong's planning vision and development, and as a result of population growth as well as people's demand for a better and less-crowded living environment, there is a strong demand from Hong Kong people for the development of more land for housing production. Planning by the Government is now underway in various aspects to develop the rural areas in the New Territories. The relatively flat topography of the Northwest New Territories and Hung Shui Kiu makes these districts ideal for development into new development areas. With co-ordination and support from all sides, there will be a new look in this area in future.
Development in the Northwest New Territories has been underway since the 1960s and 1970s. Given its remote location, transport access had been inconvenient as the Tuen Mun Highway was the only connection linking the area to the Kowloon Peninsula and the Hong Kong Island. It was only until Route 3 and the West Rail (WR) were commissioned respectively in 1998 and 2003 that the transport services have been improved. Railway access has brought growth and prosperity to the area. In the past decade, there is rapid population growth in the Northwest New Territories. A case in point is that the population of Yuen Long has already increased to 130 000 people.
In modern cities, railways form the backbone of the transport system. It is vital to construct a comprehensive mass transit system, supplemented by the development of a good highway network. Given the linkage and close
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In 2011, the Government launched the Review and Update of the Railway Development Strategy 2000, as well as the subsequent public engagement exercises, featuring the proposals of three major regional railway corridors. The Northwest New Territories is located exactly in the core of these three major railway corridors, that is, the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Express Line which connects West Shenzhen in the north and the Airport as well as the bridge head of the HZMB in the south; the Northern Link which connects the East Rail and WR of the MTRCL to release the development potential of the border area; and the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link which serves as the second corridor to the urban areas. The successful implementation of these railway projects in future not only can meet the demand for railway service by local residents in the Northwest New Territories, but also promote the development of Hong Kong's tourism industry. I am sure that this will definitely be supported by various parties.
President, in the 2013 Policy Address, the Chief Executive stated that (and I quote), "A railway project typically takes eight to 10 years to go through the process from planning to commissioning, and usually requires multi-billion dollar investment. Therefore, it is imperative for the Government to be forward-looking and make timely plans for the future." (End of quote) While I agree with the importance of making reasonable and forward-looking planning, it is even more important to implement and complete the projects in a timely manner because in recent years, major infrastructure projects such as the XRL, the HZMB, the West Kowloon Cultural District and Kai Tak Development Area have been shelved or postponed for various reasons. As a result, much time and efforts have been wasted, development stalled and a lot of hard-earned money of the public laid to waste.
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As shown by the various reviews and awards received by the MTRCL, the corporation's operation teams, both locally and internationally, have been providing outstanding railway service over the years, achieving a high standard of performance in respect of safety, punctuality, cleanliness and comfort. According to the statistics, MTR service is among the top in the world, far exceeding the current indicators. Of course, it is natural for the public to expect and demand that railway service be enhanced, such as offering fare concessions, increasing train frequency, expanding the railway network, constructing railway stations in convenient locations, providing comprehensive and user-friendly facilities, and so on. All these are worthy goals of continuous improvement to be sought by the MTRCL as an important enterprise. Separately, as the local railway network serving the Northwest New Territories, the Light Rail service should be timely expanded and enhanced to tie in with the development of the area, as well as the rapid growth of population.
President, good transport connection will facilitate the flow of people, goods and money. Hence, the early implementation of a comprehensive railway network will definitely facilitate economic development and bring benefits to society as well as people's livelihood. I hope that various parties can co-operate sincerely so that Hong Kong's rail transport will bring enormous benefits to society.
President, I so submit.
MR MARTIN LIAO (in Cantonese): President, notwithstanding the rapid development of Hong Kong's railway network, the need for rail transport in the Northwest New Territories, especially Tuen Mun and Yuen Long, had been ignored whenever new projects were being planned in the past. All along, given the lack of employment opportunities in the area, local residents must travel a long distance to work in the urban areas. Actually, early planning should have been made by the Government to construct a railway connecting to the urban areas to serve the residents in New Territories West and relieve their livelihood difficulty. But given the Government's plan to build a new airport in the 1980s, substantial resources were put on the Tung Chung Line and the Airport Express Line, so much so that planning for railway development in the Northwest New Territories was postponed. After striving continuously, the West Rail (WR) was finally extended to connect with the Tuen Mun Town Centre at the end of 2003. But the Government still owes the residents in Tuen Mun South an extension line. 4452 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Moreover, it has yet to make any strategic planning to cope with the future development and rail transport demand in the Northwest New Territories.
President, railway development not only can unleash the development potential of areas along the railway lines, but also help promote local economic activities. In the middle of last year, the Government launched Stage 1 public consultation on "Our Future Railway" and put forward the proposals of three major regional railway corridors, namely, the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Express Line, the Northern Link and the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan, that is, the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link. Moreover, during Stage 2 public consultation held between February to May this year, the Government also proposed seven local enhancement schemes, including the Tuen Mun South Extension, Hung Shui Kiu Station, and so on.
Regarding railway development in the Northwest New Territories, I opine that a comprehensive and holistic plan should be formulated. It would be most important to dovetail with the long-term development of the entire area by drawing up a macro vision and taking into account the demographic changes of the area in future, as well as the development of the local economy, rather than merely catering for individual transport demands in the area. I agree that the Government should proactively study the development of the Northwest New Territories, with core consideration being given to developing Hung Shui Kiu as another centre of economic activities. At present, the Government is studying the planning of the Hung Shui Kiu New Development Area. If the plan is put into implementation, it is estimated that the population in the area will gradually increase from about 25 000 people currently to about 160 000 people in 2030, while the number of job opportunities will also increase to about 48 000. If Hung Shui Kiu Station is added to the WR, it can also interchange with the Northern Link under planning which connects with the East Rail (ER), so that a through linkage will be provided between New Territories East and West. Externally, if the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Express Line is constructed, Hung Shui Kiu will have direct access to Hong Kong's Chek Lap Kok Airport as well as Shenzhen's Baoan Airport to connect with major cities in the Mainland and around the world. It is anticipated that Hung Shui Kiu Station can serve as a strategic external and internal railway transport hub in the north of Hong Kong, which is particularly important for the long-term development of the Northwest New Territories.
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For the some 490 000 residents in Tuen Mun, they have been waiting eagerly for the two long-overdue projects, viz. the Tuen Mun South Extension and the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link. As time went by, the population in Tuen Mun South has increased substantially. Some 90 000 people are now living in areas around Tuen Mun Pier alone, while many high-rise residential buildings have been built along the area between Tuen Mun Pier and the Town Centre. The construction of the Tuen Mun South Extension not only can facilitate the commuting of residents in Tuen Mun South to the urban areas, but also increase the patronage and cost-effectiveness of the WR. Regarding the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link servicing mainly the residents in coastal areas of Tuen Mun, Tsuen Wan and Castle Peak Road, it will provide an alternative route between the Northwest New Territories and the urban areas, while serving as some kind of compensation for the unfairness suffered by the local residents over the years. The construction of the Link can complement with the original land planning along the Castle Peak Road, so as to realize the full potential of developing coastal tourism.
The Northern Link which connects to the Lok Ma Chau Spur Line will provide linkage to the entire railway network from north to south as well as east to west as interchange services can be provided with the Shatin to Central Link, ER, Ma On Shan Rail and WR. Regarding the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Express Line connecting the airports in Hong Kong and Shenzhen, its implementation would depend on the progress of development in Qianhai, as well as the cost-effectiveness of the project.
In principle, I support the ideal railway network blueprint outlined in Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's original motion as well as other Members' amendments, but any final decision must be taken on the basis of cost-effectiveness. Except for Mr Michael TIEN's amendment, both the original motion as well as other amendments have proposed to reduce fare categorically, which I cannot agree. President, it is not difficult to appease members of the public. But it would not be conducive to Hong Kong's long-term development if the flag of populism is raised on each and every occasion. I do not agree that administrative measures or pressures from the Legislative Council should be used to induce fare reduction categorically, while economic factors having an impact on fare such as cost price be disregarded. If that is the case, it will only undermine Hong Kong's business operating environment as well as investors' confidence. Ultimately, Hong Kong society as a whole and the people will suffer. I consider that any price issues relating to franchise operation and profit control schemes should be tackled from 4454 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 an institutional perspective. Therefore, I am inclined to agree with Mr Michael TIEN's view that the Government should perfect the existing Fare Adjustment Mechanism by introducing a bigger basket of factors for consideration, including public affordability, the annual total profits of the MTRCL, such as rental and proceeds from advertisements, the quality of service such as the frequency of service disruptions. I think this will be more in line with public interests. President, I so submit.
MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): President, I would like to thank Mr LEUNG Che-cheung for proposing the motion on "Enhancing the railway service in the Northwest New Territories" today. I will mainly talk about two railways mentioned in the motion, namely the Northern Link (NOL) and the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Express Line (WEL). In fact, we can see from the Railway Development Strategy 2000 that the authorities had started studying the NOL as early as more than a decade ago, mainly in anticipation of the plans to develop the northern part of the New Territories, aiming to speed up passenger flow with the NOL. At that time, housing supply in Hong Kong was abundant and there was no specific development plan for the place (that is, Northeast New Territories), but the then Government had already foreseen the important functions and significance of the NOL. Nowadays, housing supply has become pretty tight. The Government has therefore made a fanfare and the Secretary has been searching high and low for land. Also, the Chief Executive has proposed to construct standalone buildings in different places to prepare for the development of the Northeast New Territories and Hung Shui Kiu. However, I fail to see any specific plan for the NOL or the Hung Shui Kiu Station on the part of the Government.
Under the current plan, the Northeast New Territories New Development Areas (NDAs) cover Kwu Tung North and Fan Ling North, which are extensions to the new towns of Fan Ling and Sheung Shui. In other words, in the near future, population in the Fan Ling and Sheung Shui areas will rapidly grow by more than 170 000, totaling about 500 000, which is almost the same as that of Tuen Mun. However, there are not many job opportunities in the North District and most of the residents have to work across districts. Noting that many people are working across districts, we must not provide ancillary transport facilities in a casual manner. Relying on bus services alone cannot solve the problem.
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Therefore, the failure of the ancillary transport facilities to dovetail with the development of the NDAs will seriously undermine the attractiveness of the NDAs. People would rather continue to live in "sub-divided units" in the urban areas than move to the relevant NDAs even if public rental housing (PRH) units and private developments are available. In fact, this is precisely the case in Hong Kong, where people would rather live in "sub-divided units" in the urban areas than move to the remote areas. One of the key factors that determines whether such a phenomenon in the NDAs will intensify and whether the provision of PRH units in the NDAs can solve the problem of "sub-divided units" is the provision of comprehensive ancillary transport facilities. Therefore, the NOL is not only a solution to the employment and development problems in the NDAs, but can also effectively achieve diversion and reduce the burden of the East Rail Line.
President, the second point I would like to talk about is the problem with the WEL. The Hung Shui Kiu NDA covers an area of about 800 hectares. It is not a pure residential area, but is actually planned to perform some strategic functions, which include co-ordinating the development of Tuen Mun, Yuen Long and Tin Shui Wai and providing job opportunities. Moreover, it can leverage on its location advantage to strengthen the connection between the Northwest New Territories and Qianhai of Shenzhen, thereby facilitating the normal exchanges and economic activities between residents of the two places.
Therefore, being the future financial centre of the Northwest New Territories, the Hung Shui Kiu NDA must be supported by better ancillary transport facilities. According to the preliminary conceptual scheme of the WEL, the Airport Rail Link, which is the main line, would link up the Chak Lap Kok Airport and Shenzhen Baoan International Airport. This main line has two spur lines, and the one that I am going to highlight is the Cross-boundary Spur Line connecting Hung Shui Kiu to Qianhai. President, although it is called a spur line, I consider it the main line for the Hung Shui Kiu residents because it takes only 12 minutes for people to travel from Hung Shui Kiu to Qianhai, which is very convenient. In addition, it has provided a railway connection point in the western part of the New Territories to fully tie in with the development strategies of Hung Shui Kiu. Without this railway, I am afraid that the future economic development of Hung Shui Kiu will be seriously undermined. Nor can we provide sufficient job opportunities for areas such as Tin Shui Wai. In the end, the victims will be the residents of the Northwest New Territories.
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Some people think that the construction of WEL's main line may not necessarily be cost-effective and beneficial to Hong Kong people, and may only benefit the Airport Authority. But regardless of whether the main line is built or not, the abovementioned spur line must be built and should not be deemed as part of the main line. Therefore, President, I eagerly hope that the Secretary will pay special attention to the issues concerning the NOL and the Cross-boundary Spur Line highlighted by me when giving a response later.
President, I so submit.
MR WU CHI-WAI (in Cantonese): President, the topic under discussion today is about enhancing the railway services in the Northwest New Territories. While the original motion and some of the amendments proposed to meet people's demand by building new railways or improve the existing lines, I would like to explore how railway services can be enhanced from other perspectives. I said that because both the Northern Link and the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan are railway projects that Members of the Democratic Party serving the areas have strived to implement for years. We hope that these railway projects will be implemented under the new railway plans.
I notice from the railway development of the past decade or so that the role played by local railways has remained more or less the same. Be it the West Rail, Ma On Shan Rail or Tseung Kwan O Line, the main function is to bring passengers from different parts of the New Territories to Kowloon and the Hong Kong Island for work in the morning, and in the reverse direction in the evening. This is a unidirectional mode of transport running southward in the morning and then northward in the evening. When the carrying capacities of the urban railways are almost saturated, there would be requests from society for the construction of new railways. However, the fact is that the expansion of large-scale railway and road networks is subject to limitations, and the construction of new roads and railways to keep directing passenger flows to the already saturated urban areas cannot solve the problem. On the contrary, this will only create more congestion problems.
From the planning perspective, we should consider changing such unidirectional mode of population flow. Given that we have established a convenient and effective railway network, the Government should transfer industries to new towns with railway connection through urban decentralization, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4457 thereby changing the local population flow from one way to two ways. The Government can play a leading role in this urban decentralization process and set up large-scale government offices in, for example, Yuen Long and Tin Shui Wai. This will naturally attract the business sector to move in these areas for development, thereby creating job opportunities and enabling a more balanced overall planning in Hong Kong. This is the function that new towns should perform, and that is, establishing self-sufficient communities and reducing the burden and reliance on external transportation network, with a view to optimizing the railway networks.
From the perspective of resource optimization, I consider that the Government should improve the co-operation between bus operators and the railway company, so as to optimize railway resources which have spare capacity, enhance the efficiency of bus and railway services, and change the mode of other transport means which unidirectionally carry passengers to the railway system. This will avoid overcrowdedness in railways and prevent the service quality from being undermined. I hope that the Government will consider optimizing the use of public transport resources by providing railway-bus interchange concessions, so as to attract passengers to switch to bus routes with spare capacities. In so doing, we can reduce our reliance on railway services on the one hand, and address the problem of spare capacities for some bus routes on the other hand.
In the 1980s, in order to alleviate the overcrowdedness problem during peak hours, the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) had offered the Staggered Hours Discount to appropriately re-distribute passengers. I think that the Government should seriously consider such an arrangement. In fact, during peak hours, the East Rail Line, Kwun Tong Line, Island Line or other lines are packed with people because most people go to work in those two hours. Can we alleviate the overcrowdedness by diversion measures, so that passengers do not need to wait for three to four trains before they can squeeze in? I think that the Government should, in the capacity as a major shareholder of the MTRCL, urge it to seriously consider offering the Staggered Hours Discount to alleviate the overcrowdedness and divert passengers.
In the course of railway development, we will inevitably face the costs and implications of comprehensive development. However, if no thorough consideration is given to the service arrangements, people's needs will still not be met in the end even if we keep building railways. Therefore, I hope that the Government would incorporate an important element when enhancing the railway 4458 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 services, and that is, extending the railways which are currently operating in a north-south direction to east-west direction, so that our railway network can genuinely cover the entire community and society, thereby enabling our society to have a more balanced overall planning and people will no longer have to endure an increasingly congested railway network.
I so submit. Thank you, President.
MR CHEUNG KWOK-CHE (in Cantonese): President, Tin Shui Wai will definitely be mentioned when we talk about the development of the Northwest New Territories. Tin Shui Wai typifies the development of new towns in Hong Kong in the recent 20 years. The then remark "the city of sadness" made by Chief Secretary for Administration Mrs Carrie LAM had indeed sent a loud and clear message about the Government's faulty community planning. In Tin Shui Wai, employment, education, housing, healthcare, transport and community services are totally unavailable throughout the years. Let us take healthcare services as an example. According to the 2011 Population Census Report, Tin Shui Wai currently has a population of 290 000, but the Tin Shui Wai Hospital is still under construction and will not be completed until 2016. Tung Chung, another recently developed new town, now only has a population of about 80 000. This is again attributable to the Government's faulty planning because according to the original plan, development of the district should have completed in 2011 with a population of 320 000. However, it was not until September this year that the North Lantau Hospital came into operation. I highlight these situations just to tell the Government that the provision of various supporting social services is seriously imbalanced in these areas.
Based on the Government's development strategy, it is foreseeable that population in the Northeast and Northwest New Territories will rapidly increase. The proposals made by Members in the motion and relevant amendments today, which include connecting the internal and external transport linkages, building the hardware facilities of the Northern Link, the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Express Line (WEL) and various railway extensions, as well as improving railway service quality, reducing fare and improving barrier-free facilities, aim to address the problems currently faced by residents living in the new towns of the New Territories in their daily lives. I do agree with them, but we will have to wait and see if the Government will make proactive response after the debate. Some Members have specifically highlighted the positioning of various public LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4459 transport modes in their amendments. I think that apart from the specific measures, we should discuss more on the positioning.
Regarding the discussion on public transport, the word "public" should be highlighted in the first place. Public transport is not provided for profits, but for the provision of fast and convenient transport for the general public at low or even zero fare, thereby realizing the original intent of public services. As taxpayers, people are in fact collectively paying taxes in exchange for public transport services. We always say that Hong Kong is densely populated with limited land, the Government has therefore encouraged people not to drive, but to use public transport services instead. This may be construed as people giving up their personal right to drive in exchange for some reciprocal rights. The logic is actually very simple. Transport resources are limited and nobody likes traffic congestion. Fortunately, some people are willing to give up driving and use public transport services so as to release road resources for comfortable driving by other people. As these people have made sacrifices for the general well-being of Hong Kong, they should be compensated with fast and comfortable public transport services at low fare, or else there would not be the so-called public transport services.
However, it is obvious that such a right and proper situation has never appeared in Hong Kong. On the contrary, all public transport services have been placed under private operation and monopolized through franchising under the banner of public bodies. As a result, transport fares in Hong Kong are high and bus operators and the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) have voraciously asked for fare increase year after year. Worse still, the application for fare increase has become a routine formality during which bargaining tricks would be employed before they succeed to increase fares year after year. Even more absurd is that, with the exception of the Hong Kong Government, all public transport services in this world do not make profits and have to turn to their governments for subsidy. The Hong Kong Government not only does not require to subsidize public transport services, but being the major shareholder of the MTRCL, it even receives considerable dividends every year. There have been requests from the public for the Government to plough back the dividends into the community by partially offsetting MTRCL's fare increase, but the request was not accepted. In fact, when people sacrifice their own rights in exchange for public transport services, the services are no longer public in nature when public transport operators charge exorbitant fares, but have become enterprises 4460 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 operating blatantly for profits. For these enterprises, we should cast doubt on the justifications for their existence by monopolizing social resources.
Although the motion focuses on the transport connectivity, I hope that Members will also pay attention to other matters. Due to the time constraint, I can only briefly talk about two points. The first point is about the local transportation problems. Let us take Tin Shui Wai, Yuen Long and Tuen Mun as examples. The Light Rail has all along been their transport lifeline under the influence of the Government. Local residents have no choice but to use the Light Rail, which is not fair to them. I think the Government should at least support the provision of some public transport services operated by social enterprises for balance. We can further discuss this point in the future. Another point is the need to render strong support to the development of community transport services both in terms of policy and resources, with a view to serving local residents who are unable to use public transport services due to limited mobility, inability to afford ordinary transport facilities and living places being too remote. As a result of the privatization of public transport facilities, unprofitable routes have gradually been cancelled or cut down on service frequency. At present, as the capacity of Hong Kong's Rehabus service is very limited, the Government should therefore develop community transport services to take care of the disadvantaged groups in our society.
President, I would like to reiterate that public transport is the kind of public service that the Government is obliged to provide, and it must be cheap, efficient, comprehensive and of high quality. President, I so submit.
MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): President, urban land supply is tight in Hong Kong and expansion to the New Territories has become the future direction for development. Urban development in Tuen Mun and Yuen Long of the Northwest New Territories has now achieved a certain scale. According to the data of the 2011 Population Census, the total population of the two districts has reached 1.06 million, which is almost one seventh of Hong Kong's population. To resolve the housing problem, the Government has proposed to conduct a comprehensive planning and consultation in respect of Hung Shui Kiu in the Northwest New Territories. It is anticipated that the local population will increase by almost 200 000 after the plan is implemented. It has become an irreversible fact that the number of people moving to the New Territories and its transient population will further increase. The Government must put in LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4461 resources and implement different transport network plans according to the future residential layout of the New Territories.
The two rounds of public consultation conducted by the Government entitled "Our Future Railway" ended in May this year. The consultation had further reviewed the Railway Development Strategy 2000 and set out the future railway plans. I consider that one of them, the Northern Link (NOL), should be finalized and implemented as soon as possible. We all know that the West Rail Line is the current option for residents in the Northwest New Territories to go to the urban areas, but railway connection is unavailable if they want to go north to Shenzhen or go horizontally to the Northeast New Territories. It is extremely inconvenient as they can only rely on other land transport modes. Moreover, as the population in the Northeast New Territories and the number of Mainland visitors to Hong Kong increase, the East Rail Line is reaching its capacity. However, the newly built West Rail Line has failed to divert passengers from the East Rail Line for the same reason that there is no railway connection between the two railway lines.
According to the planning of the NOL, there will be one section providing direct access to Lok Ma Chau through the West Rail and another linking up the East and West Rail Lines. Upon completion of the NOL, we can optimize the existing carrying capacity of the West Rail Line and therefore ease the pressure on the East Rail Line. Apart from shortening the travel time between the eastern and western parts of the New Territories, the NOL also helps divert visitors from New Territories East to reduce the pressure on the district, and make commercial activities in the New Territories West more robust, thereby creating more business and job opportunities and developing more quality living and business areas.
President, the consultation paper has also highlighted the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Express Line (WEL), the cross-boundary railway which has been discussed for years. When the idea was put forward back then, the WEL was supposed to link up the airports of Hong Kong and Shenzhen. After thorough discussions, the railway network has recently been expanded to cover Tung Chung in North Lantau, Hung Shui Kiu in the Northwest New Territories and Qianhai in Shenzhen, thus enabling the NOL to connect the Airport Express and West Rail Line. Implementation of the planned routes will significantly enhance the economic values of the WEL.
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According to the Government's plan, Hung Shui Kiu will be position as the Northwest New Territories New Development Area. Apart from being a source of land supply for high-density residential developments under Hong Kong's long-term housing planning, Hung Shui Kiu will also evolve as one of the hubs of tourism and business in the New Territories, thereby facilitating commercial activities such as retail, tourism and logistics businesses and providing considerable job opportunities. Tung Chung of North Lantau also has enormous potential for development. Let us look at Shenzhen beyond the boundary. Future planning of Shenzhen also focuses on the western part, and Houhai and Qianhai together will form the western urban core. While a number of companies are building skyscrapers as their headquarters, development of the nearby Shenzhen International Airport is still ongoing. Consideration has been given to build a new convention centre. By then, the Shenzhen International Airport, Qianhai and Shenzhen Bay will form another business area in Shenzhen, and a new urban outlook is expecting. Various industries in Hong Kong, particularly financial, trading and tourism, will directly benefit, and commercial, tourism and community activities between Shenzhen and Hong Kong will be increasingly busy. The WEL will help shorten the distance between the two places and bring about substantial business opportunities.
Also, the WEL will help enhance the air connectivity and co-operation between Shenzhen and Hong Kong. Currently, Hong Kong's airport has 140 overseas destinations while Shenzhen's airport has about 82 Mainland destinations. By shortening the distance between the two places and providing a fast and convenient route for passengers plying between the two places, complementarily of destinations between the airports of Hong Kong and Shenzhen can be strengthened, thereby enhancing the competitiveness of the two airports. Given the above factors and taking into account the long-term considerations, I think the WEL should no longer be an armchair strategy; instead, a timetable should be drawn up for further implementation.
I am open-minded and support other enhanced schemes proposed in the Review of the Railway Development Strategy. I hope that the authorities can see farther ahead and properly carry out the relevant assessment, planning and implementation as soon as possible, so as not to miss the golden opportunity to catch up with the external economic developments.
President, I so submit.
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MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): In the next 20 years, the Northwest New Territories will be one of the fastest growing areas in Hong Kong, but railway construction in the area is lagging far behind the rate of population growth. There are currently 1.1 million people living in Yuen Long and Tuen Mun in the Northwest New Territories, but these two areas are only served by one railway line and five railway stations. For Shatin and Tseung Kwan O with similar population size and coverage, they are presently served by three railways lines and 16 railway stations, and the new Sha Tin to Central Link is now under construction. The lack of a criss-cross mass transport system in the Northwest New Territories has caused inconvenience to residents and increased their travelling expenses. On the other hand, with the lack of a railway network, large-scale economic development projects cannot be implemented in the area, resulting in fewer job opportunities. The average incomes of residents in Tuen Mun and Yuen Long are lower than people in other parts of the territory.
To promote the development of the Northwest New Territories, it is essential to construct the Northern Link (NOL) to connect the railway networks in the Northwest New Territories and the New Territories East, and to provide a new cross-border rail line. The NOL was proposed in the Railway Development Strategy 2000 but the project has been delayed time and again. In the past 17 years, the Government constructed and planned nine new railways but the NOL, which is only 11 km in length, has been put off to the indefinite future. The starting point of the Northern Link is the West Rail Kam Sheung Road Station, it passes through Ngau Tam Mei and San Tin and terminates at Lok Ma Chau. The total length is 11 km and the journey time is seven minutes. At present, as the Lok Ma Chau Control Point can no longer be expanded to allow more modes of public transport to enter the closed area, bus services from Tuen Mun to Lok Ma Chau Control Point cannot be provided. The construction of the NOL can provide an additional cross-border rail access for residents of the New Territories West, and ease the flow of people leaving the territory. They need not change for buses after travelling to the Northwest New Territories, and hence the traffic pressure in the Northwest New Territories can be alleviated.
Tuen Mun is an important town in the Northwest New Territories but in terms of railway development, it situates at the border area and at the end of a railway line. When the Government constructed the West Rail years ago, it only agreed to extend the West Rail Line from Yuen Long to Tuen Mun as a compromise. Passengers travelling from Tuen Mun to the urban areas have to make a detour to Yuen Long, hence prolonging the travelling time and pushing up 4464 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 the fares. The railway fares from Tuen Mun to the urban areas are even higher than bus fares. In order to speed up the railway connection between Tuen Mun and the urban areas, we hope that the Government would construct the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan, such that Tuen Mun will no longer be an isolated district in respect of railway services, and the transport demands of residents of Siu Lam and Sam Shing in Tuen Mun can be effectively met.
The Tuen Mun railway network must also be improved as soon as possible. At present, the area adjacent to the Tuen Mun Ferry Pier is a major residential area with some 100 000 inhabitants. But there is no direct railway service to the area, residents have to rely on feeder service to get to the West Rail Tuen Mun Station. For this reason, local residents earnestly hope that the Tuen Mun South Extension of the West Rail would be constructed. The Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong thinks that the Tuen Mun South Extension of the West Rail should be extended to the area adjacent to the Tuen Mun Ferry Pier, and it should also be extended to Siu Lang Shui, so as to dovetail with the development of Tuen Mun Area 40 and Area 46 in the future. The DAB submitted a planning proposal last year on the development of a economic zone in Tuen Mun. We requested the Government to make good use of land and develop an economic zone in the prime land lots in Tuen Mun Area 40 and Area 46. Large commercial facilities and an economic industrial park should be set up in the zone, making it a sub-centre in Tuen Mun, thereby creating 60 000 jobs and revitalizing Tuen Mun. The Government has started planning these two Areas, and the development must be supported by railway planning.
The housing development in Tuen Mun Area 54 will bring in 30 000-odd people to the area. The Light Rail has been extended to Siu Hong Station, if another station to the west can be constructed, it will bring convenience to residents in Area 54 around Tze Tin in future, as they no longer have to walk to the West Rail station, or pass through Siu Hong Court, which will cause unnecessary impacts on residents of Siu Hong Court. According to the MTRCL, no technical problem is involved in the extension, and it will fully co-operate after the Government has granted approval. Therefore, I would like to take this opportunity to urge the Government again to extend the Light Rail line to Tuen Mun Area 54.
Even though the MTRCL has made increasing profits in recent years, its quality of service has kept declining. In the past year, there were a series of MTR incidents, including the derailing of a Light Rail train in Tin Shui Wai, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4465
Yuen Long in May this year, in which 70 people were injured. In addition to strengthening the safety measures, it is necessary to improve services and increase train compartments as passengers are packed like sardines in the compartments. We hope that the situation can be improved as soon as possible.
I so submit.
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): President, on the question of whether railway planning will eventually be implemented, while the Government focuses on cost-effectiveness, Members of the Legislative Council or District Council mainly focus on the needs of the public and the community. This explains why some railway projects have yet to be implemented after long delays while others can jump the queue and implement speedily.
Although the railway lines proposed in Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's motion are all in the New Territories West, we need to consider separately whether such projects should be implemented. Let us first take a look at the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan (Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link). According to information, the Government had already discussed the alignment in the 1980s. However, owing to the steep terrain along the Castle Peak Road, huge expediture would incur in the formation works, and hence the project was finally rejected. The project was later replaced by the West Rail Line, and at present, the West Rail Line can meet the transport demands of residents in Tuen Mun and Yuen Long travelling to and from the urban areas.
In 2012, Mr Andrew CHENG, the then Chairman of the Legislative Council Panel on Transport, pointed out that the demand for the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link had dropped and there was no urgent need to construct the Link. The construction of a heavy railway system in sparsely populated areas with a carrying capacity of more than 40 000 people per hour in one direction may give the public an impression that transfer of potential benefits is involved.
Regarding the Tuen Mun South Extension and the Hung Shui Kiu Station, they are extensions to the existing West Rail Line. As stated in the consultancy report on Railway Development Strategy 2000, these extensions have minor impacts on the existing operation of the West Rail, and by 2031, the Tuen Mun South Extension can more effectively increase the patronage of the West Rail Line by about 4 000 passenger trips per hour, and the loading of the West Rail 4466 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Line will exceed 70%. However, it is also stated in the report that with the commissioning of the Tuen Mun South Extension, it may be more difficult for passengers to board the trains at the Long Ping, Yuen Long, Kam Sheung Road and Tsuen Wan West Stations during peak hours. Hence, before the construction of the Tuen Mun South Extension, the Government must instruct the MTRCL to improve the ancillary services; otherwise, it will exert additional pressure on the West Rail Line, leading to discontent of the residents.
Regarding the Hung Shui Kiu Station, according to the same consultancy report, the relevant data is projected on the basis of the pattern of residents travelling to and from the urban areas. More discussions should be held on whether the Hung Shui Kiu Station should be constructed. However, if the Government or some developers and landowners of the area would like to construct the station to pave the way for the development of the Hung Shui Kiu new town, that would be another story.
President, finally, I would like to discuss the Northern Link (NOL). The NOL is one of the railway projects in Hong Kong that have been discussed for the longest period of time, but has yet to be implemented. In the previous terms of the Legislative Council, many Members had strived for the expeditious construction of the NOL, in particular, after the completion of the West Rail, there had been greater demand for the NOL. However, due to the limited number of potential passengers, the NOL has been shelved by the Government. The Neo Democrats supports the expeditious construction of the NOL as this railway line will facilitate the connection of the New Territories East and the New Territories West, and meet the transport demands of residents in both parts of the New Territories. Nevertheless, the prime factor for consideration in constructing the NOL is the alignment of stations.
President, the latest plan of the MTRCL is to construct a new Kwu Tung Station as the interchange station of the East Rail and the West Rail in the North District, so as to dovetail with the Government's plan to develop the Northeast New Territories New Development Area (NDA). However, the rationale or implication of this plan is to allow the Government to ignore public opinions and obstinately proceed with the implementation of the Northeast New Territories NDA project. The Government would also arbitrarily develop Kwu Tung into a new town even though no consensus has been reached on the development of the area. The Neo Democrats has reservations about the alignment design of the Kwu Tung Station. We urge the Government and the MTRCL to plan afresh the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4467 alignment and consult the public, so as to first seek the stakeholders' consensus before expeditiously completing the construction of the NOL.
President, the Neo Democrats agrees in principle with the other proposals in the original motion, including reducing fare, increasing service frequencies, increasing and procuring more train cars, improving station facilities, and enhancing the Light Rail system and other connecting transportation arrangements, and so on. Yet, since we do not agree with all the proposals in Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's original motion, I can only abstain from voting. We will vote for the amendments of Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, Mr Frankie YICK, Mr SIN Chung-kai and Mr Albert CHAN.
President, I so submit.
MR TANG KA-PIU (in Cantonese): President, I was born in Tuen Mun and had lived in Tuen Mun until I moved elsewhere when I was around 24 to 25 years old. The situation of Tuen Mun is really pathetic, it is located at the border of Hong Kong, and there is currently another border area, Tung Chung, where I am providing services there. The situation of Tung Chung West new town, not being served by any MTR station, is even more deplorable. I remember that from the time I attended the matriculation course to the time I attended university, the West Rail was under construction. I learnt that originally, the West Rail Line did not include Tuen Mun. The West Rail was open to traffic when I just graduated from university and Tuen Mun was the last stop.
The transport facilities in Tuen Mun are really poor, especially when accidents occurred on the Tuen Mun Highway. For example, some time ago, a nail on the road had damaged the tyres of dozens of buses, and this simple incident was enough to paralyse the operation of the Tuen Mun new town. We thus believe that it is necessary to specifically discuss how to optimize the transport network and facilities around Tuen Mun. On the development of new towns, if I remember correctly, the San Fat Estate should be the first housing estate in Tuen Mun. From the mid 1970s up till now, the completion of the West Rail had failed to improve transport services in Tuen Mun. It was only until the connection of the railway lines from Tuen Mun to Tsim Sha Tsui East that the transport services had improved. Before the connection of the railway line to Tsim Sha Tsui, Tuen Mun was still an islatoted area in terms of transport network, and Tuen Mun residents had tolerated this situation for nearly 30 years. 4468 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
For this reason, we support in principle the proposed extension of the Tuen Mun transport network, including the extension from Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan, from Tuen Mun to the Hung Shui Kiu NDA, and the connection to the East Rail via the Hung Shui Kiu Station.
What I would like to say is not merely that we have to compensate Tuen Mun residents for their sufferings, we must also deal with other problems as well. I notice that Dr KWOK Ka-ki has particularly mentioned the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Express Line (WEL) in his amendment. I have the impression that when Mr LEUNG Chun-ying ran for the election, he often carried with him a map wherever he went; the map indicated that the Lantau Island and Tuen Mun were the centre of the Pearl River Delta Region. From the perspective of development, to improve the transport network in Tuen Mun, the WEL should be constructed so as to support … not to say support, so that people can speedily reach Shenzhen, or Qianhai, an area of grave concern to us all. I think it is necessary for the Government to examine the matter without delay.
For the same reason, in the amendment of another Member, Mr Albert CHAN also urged the Government to study the connection of Chek Lap Kok and Tuen Mun by a tunnel or a cross-harbour road, to be complemented by railway services, and we agree to the proposal. If Tuen Mun and Tung Chung are to become the centres of the Pearl River Delta Region, there are no reasons why ancillary railways should not be constructed. So, I earnestly hope the Government would give us an account.
In addition to the planning of Tuen Mun, as a District Council Member in Tung Chung, I am most concerned about the development of the area. Residents in Tung Chung West accounted for a half of the population in the Tung Chung New Town, and they have long been deceived by the Housing Department and the Transport and Housing Bureau. Years ago, the authorities told them that an MTR station would be constructed in Yat Tung Estate, but the decision had yet to be finalized even when people who moved to Yat Tung Estate as children have now grown up, got a job and even got married. When people first moved to Yat Tung Estate, they saw, in the management office, a model of a large housing estate with 25 blocks and a MTR station nearby. Yet, the model was put away a few years later as though nothing had happened. Some even said that they heard from the former Secretary, Ms Eva CHENG, that the MTR station would be built in the sea. The MTR station was not constructed as it was not sure if LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4469 reclamation works would be carried out. This is really irresponsible, deceiving 40 000 people who live in the remotest public housing estate and have to pay the highest transport fares. I guess Yat Tung Estate has, so far, the largest number of residents among all housing estates. The 40 000 people who live there are the poorest. They have just been allocated public housing units and have to pay the highest transport fares. Hence, when government official responds later, I hope he would respond and explain to us when the Government would pay off the debt owed to residents in Tung Chung by constructing a railway station in Tung Chung West.
Furthermore, there is a saying that if more and more people live in Tung Chung in future ― actually there are now some 90 000 to 100 000 residents ― if the population reaches 260 000 as planned, can residents merely rely on the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge (HZMB) as an effective means of communication? As the HZMB will have to accommodate the Airport Express Line and the Tung Chung Line, will there be a limit to the service frequency? Will the service frequency be lower than that of ordinary MTR lines? As the Airport Express Line and Tung Chung Line have to pass through Tung Chung, the Tung Chung Station will become more and more congested since there is a limition to the service frequency. For the time being, I just regard all such comments as speculation and rumour, and I hope that the relevant departments can clarify whether the HZMB will accommodate both the Tung Chung Line and the Airport Express Line, and whether service frequencies will be limited; if so, what is the upper limit of service frequency?
Lastly, I note that Mr Frankie YICK's amendment urges that the Government should expeditiously launch the Fourth Comprehensive Transport Study. The Motor Transport Workers General Union under the Federation of Trade Unions also urges the SAR Government to conduct such the study expeditiously as the current monopoly of the MTRCL will make all people in Hong Kong suffer. With a profit of $12 billion to $15 billion each year, the MTRCL continues to increase fares. It will definitely increase fares as all railway networks are owned by the MTRCL. As for other modes of transport, the industry players are mainly professional drivers, they often have to face layoff or income reduction. I think minibus is a case in point. There are a total of 200 buses under the New World First Bus and Citybus. With the commissioning of the West Island Line and South Island Line, the bus service will not be needed. These are all ironclad facts. Therefore, I hope the SAR 4470 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Government would expeditiously launch the Fourth Comprehensive Transport Study, so as to examine how the livelihood and development of employees of the land transport industry can be safeguarded.
I so submit.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): President, having listened to the railway development history told by Mr TANG Ka-piu, I think we are really foolish. It is because the purpose of railway development is to nurture a consortium which constructs railways mainly for the sake of property development. Times have changed and we have to look northward and our railway development has also changed in nature. We no longer extend railways endlessly or construct huge housing estates along railway lines or develop above-station properties to make money.
Members' views on railway extension are really ridiculous. They expressed their expectation that the Government should do something but they have not explained why the Government should take such action. The current situation in Tuen Mun is a result of changes in our industrial development. Since the Government intended to construct a huge industrial park in Yuen Long years ago, it had to provide transport network for people travelling from Tuen Mun to Yuen Long for work and not the other way round. Following the reform and opening up of the Mainland, a lot of work has been undertaken in the Mainland, it is thus no longer necessary for the Government to do so.
Therefore, the Members' views are laughable. First, for whom do the railways serve? Who operates the railways? The railways are currently operated by a consortium, and the business scope of this consortium is far-reaching; it now has business dealings with foreigners and runs business in Stockholm and Shenzhen. For whom do the railways serve? My opinions certainly differ from those of other Members. In my opinion, if the railways are not operated by the public sector or the Government, we need not talk about improvement measures.
The consortium which operates the railways has taken such a long time to install platform screen doors, and it even requires each passenger to pay $0.1 per trip for such purpose. How can it talk such nonsense as if we are indebted to it. Who should be the owners of the railways? We should be the owners, but the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4471 railways have been privatized. After the privatization, the Northern Link cannot be constructed because of the differences in objective. The consortium does not seek to attain a reasonable layout. What purpose does it serve if the Northern Link has a horizontal alignment? It can only increase passenger flow, but no housing development is possible. No housing development can be implemented along the railway line.
Another issue is that some Members seem to think that the northward development of railway would bring more people to Hong Kong and make Hong Kong more prosperous. They are really fools. I can say that 69 of the 70 Members are fools. I have never heard that increasing people flow will bring economic prosperity to a place. However, I believe this goal can be achieved by promoting the flow of goods, technologies and capital. Why is it necessary to transport computers to Hong Kong by railway? The transactions can be completed on the Mainland by pressing the buttons. LEUNG Chun-ying once said that Hong Kong would be marginalized if railways were not constructed to connect with the Mainland. He has gone out of his mind!
What is LEUNG Chun-ying asking us to do? He said we should promote economies of scale so that other people must come to Hong Kong. In my view, people flow is not important. How much money can we make when tourists come to Hong Kong? We all understand that tourism only accounts for 6% of the Gross Domestic Product, and it is only 12% if the proportion is doubled. How hard do we need to work? Just like the agricultural industry, our tourism industry has diminishing effects. With increasing infrastructure constructed, the inadequacy of facilities in the territory is further exposed. Nevertheless, the Government is still going to transport things into the territory at the risk of having ruptured blood vessels. Hence, when we discuss railways, we must talk about the Government.
Frankly speaking, the first-term SAR Government led by TUNG Chee-hwa was initially widely supported. Nonetheless, it often missed the golden opportunity. Owing to the delay in the construction of the West Rail, the Hong Kong Section of Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (the XRL project) had to be constructed. The reason behind was that TUNG Chee-hwa accorded priority to the interests of local property developers. Did the north have anything to do with him? At the time, the Mainland still lacked money for speculative stock trading or participating in international financial exploitation. Therefore, railways were not constructed to connect with the XRL project.
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I remember that I betted on the administration of three Chief Executives. The first one is TUNG Chee-hwa who eventually had leg pain and stepped down when I just became a Member. The second one is Donald TSANG who proposed the development of the six "damn-the-whole-family" industries, that is industries in which we have a competitive edge, but no progress had been made. Even the royalists applauded the then Chief Executive, Donald TSANG. I pointed out at that time that was trickery. There is only one industry in Hong Kong today, and it is the financial industry which engages in financial speculations. The real estate and financial industries are making money.
From this perspective, railway construction should service for the real estate industry and housing development should continue. No wonder they have invented a foolish theory of achieving economies of scale by integrating Shenzhen and Hong Kong, and maintain dominance in the aviation industry. As Shenzhen is our competitor, why should our railways be connected to Shenzhen? Are we going to offer business opportunities to our competitor? Yet, their prices are more competitive. How can Members make such remarks in this Council? I now finally realize the thinking of the royalists. As integration of China and Hong Kong is inevitable, more infrastructures should be constructed, so that they are ready to be purchased by Mainland financial consortia in the future.
Hence, President, I trust that we must talk about politics when we discuss the public transport system of railways. I think LEUNG Chun-ying is a "compensated dating" Chief Executive and the Government under his leadership is just like a girl who engages in "compensated dating". They sell to the Mainland our resources and policies. How can it be? It is a waste of time for us to hold discussion in this Chamber today. If LEUNG Chun-ying is still in power, Hong Kong has no luck at all.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): President, I remember that, in 2009, the then Secretary for the Environment, Edward YAU, attended the Copenhagen Climate Conference and introduced to people from various parts of the world what we had accomplished in respect of transport. At that time, Edward YAU mentioned that railway was the backbone of the transport system in Hong Kong and it was widely welcomed. Members may get more information on the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4473 contents of his speech in 2009 on the government website. He gave a very appealing speech though a very embarrassing incident occurred. I am going to focus on that today.
I must reiterate that I support development and I also support this motion on the development of railways. However, can the Government improve its approach in handling the issues? Even though the Government has our support, if it frequently uses the "imperial sword" in the process of development, a lot of problems would arise. In my view, if Secretary Prof Anthony CHEUNG alone is responsible to respond to Members with regard to his motion, he may experience some difficulties. The Secretary for Development, Mr Paul CHAN, should also attend the meeting to give explanations. As railway development is related to land, let us see how they can explain why good things have turned bad. For example, the proposal to improve air quality has led to some adverse consequences. Let me give an example concerning the West Rail and screen-like buildings. A number of civil groups are formed to deal with this problem. In 2000, the forced acquisition of the Wah Kai Industrial Centre in Tseun Wan had led to strong opposition from factory operators, some even attempted to jump from height. Later, we found out that the ultimate beneficiaries were property developers. I do not want to go into details about this incident, but Hong Kong people still vividly remember what had happened. The development of railways had given rise to many substantial problems. However, the authorities failed to handle the problems at that time. Next, the incident concerning Choi Yuen Village. Frankly speaking, we supported the construction of the Hong Kong Section of Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (the XRL project), then how come there were so many problems related to rural villages, and why did the Government fail to address such problems? The issues involved were serious, and so far, the Government still failed to resolve the problem concerning Ngau Tam Mei. The current-term Legislative Council had discussed the Ngau Tam Mei incident. The problem was that the XRL project of the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) had depleted the well water in Ngau Tam Mei, and consequently, there was no water for farming, planting or fish farming. I think the whole process has been handled very clumsily. Why did the authorities not listen to the residents' views? Why the range was set at 5 km but not 30 km? The Government completely ignored these issues and it made no preparation in respect of insurance and compensation. It just promised to deal with these issues afterwards. The current-term Legislative Council continues to deal with this case handed down by the last-term Legislative Council. During the two-day 4474 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 consultation on the Northeast New Territories New Development Area, nearly 40 organizations were involved in certain section of the consultation, and among these organizations, 30 expressed concerns about the Ngau Tam Mei incident which has nothing to do with the Northeast New Territories. They were very furious because the impacts caused by the MTR project on Ngau Tam Mei had still not been ameliorated. This week, we went to Shek Tsai Leng with the Secretary for Labour and Welfare and we raised a lot of criticism about the development of the place. Years ago, when the quarters of British Forces families had been vacated, the Government entrusted the management to a non-governmental organization, which turned the place into a very nice retirement home for the elderly. Under the arrangement of the Federation of Trade Union, many elderly people who experienced difficulties living in the Mainland had returned to Hong Kong and stayed in that elderly home. When I visited the place, a plague was presented to the FTU for its effort in arranging the elderly to settle in Shek Tsai Leng where they could live in a comfortable environment. However, we now learn that the elderly home has to be cleared for development, and where will the 1 000 odd elderly people be relocated? I just had a meeting with the Government. Secretary Matthew CHEUNG told me that the Government can at most relocate 300 elders, how about the remaining 700 elders? The Government has not taken relocation into consideration and just insists on clearing the place in 2017. I also told Secretary Paul CHAN that he must handle this issue before implementing the project in 2017. He couldn't care less and the Government would definitely clear the place despite opposition.
I have repeatedly reiterated that I support development since I became a Member of the Legislative Council. When an Honourable colleague moved a motion on terminating the development in the Northeast New Territories, I deleted certain wordings because I believed that development is necessary, but the authorities could not be indifferent to people's livelihood in the course of railway development.
I would like to tell the Secretary that District Council members do not like the Transport Department because its practice made people angry. An official once asked me why I hated them, I told him that I did not hate them but many District Council members do not like the Transport Department because it is quite overbearing. This certainly has nothing to do with railways but this is the general impression of the people on the Transport Department. We do not deny the importance of a transport system for the development of an area. We must also make projections about the future population growth, and people need to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4475 travel to school, to work places or to the market. But the Government should not destroy everything. Apart from Shek Tsai Leng, there is the Yuet Wo Soya Sauce Factory in the New Territories North, and there is also a factory producing white vinegar, which is an essential raw ingredient. If the place has to be cleared, the factory will disappear. Is the Government being reasonable? The authorities stressed on the importance to construct railway. There is another place called Ma Shi Po near the railway line … Let me tell the Secretary, I hope the authorities would put forward policies and consult the people affected. It cannot say the people had been consulted 10 years ago, and the project can then be implemented. This is not the right approach. Whenever development plans are proposed, the government officials should brief this Council. Do not only consent to consult the Council after people have besieged the Legislative Council Complex. Should this be the right practice, President?
I originally did not intend to discuss this point because I also support railway development. Yet, so many social problems have arisen in the development process and I wonder why people do not think about that? The Government should consider the issues of people before designing the railway alignment and it should adopt the long-term perspective instead of just carrying out development with the consortia in mind. Can the Government do so? Now that the Government proposes to construct the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan, and passes through the scenic Sham Tseng and So Kwun Wat, it should first consult people in the districts. It does not matter if people have different views (The buzzer sounded) … there are always people with different views … President, I so submit.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, you may now speak on the amendments. The speaking time limit is five minutes.
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I am very grateful to 22 Members for their remarks, including seven Members who proposed amendments to my original motion. They expressed their views on the original motion and put forward their arguments.
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Dr KWOK Ka-ki has expressed, in his amendment, different views concerning my proposal on extending the Light Rail line to Tuen Mun Area 54. He advocated that the planning work and consultation should be implemented expeditiously. In my view, the extension project should be implemented immediately because further studies will cause delays in extending the Light Rail line. Although the Secretary has just responded that the Light Rail line will not be extended, in the light of the increasing the population in Tuen Mun, the Government will make a mistake if it fails to provide these people with convenient means of transport. Therefore, I hope the Secretary would continue to conduct in-depth studies in this area with a view to making improvements.
When Mr Michael TIEN spoke on his amendment, he agreed to extending the Light Rail line to Tuen Mun Area 54 but he also expressed his views on the retention or otherwise of the Light Rail. Is it too early to review whether the Light Rail is ageing with low carrying capacity and too many accidents, such that a decision should be made on its retention or otherwise? I think we still need time to make observations because the Light Rail still plays a significant role in providing feeder services in Yuen Long and Tuen Mun. It may not be desirable for making a premature decision at this stage. The Light Rail certainly has a lot of problems, in particular, the design of the Light Rail years ago failed to take into account the problem of traffic congestion at the junctions; the long and narrow platforms which lead to unsatisfactory service, and so on. A review should be conducted on how to improve and optimize the Light Rail services. In this connection, I think Mr Michael TIEN's proposal warrants our consideration and study.
Since I disagree with Mr Albert CHAN's amendment which deletes my proposal on extending the Light Rail line to Tuen Mun Area 54, I will vote against his amendment.
Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, Mr Frankie YICK, Miss Alice MAK and Mr SIN Chung-kai have made specific proposals in their amendments. For example, though Mr SIN Chung-kai said that he has "taken a free ride", I think enhancing railway connection to the Hong Kong Island will also bring benefits to the residents in the Northwest New Territories; hence, I will support their amendments.
I so submit. Thank you, President.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4477
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, in the debate just now, a total of 23 Members, including Mr LEUNG Che-cheung have spoken, and I would like to thank Members for their views.
As mentioned in my opening remark, the Government attaches great importance to the complementary relations between railways and other modes of public transport in the development of different areas, the policy of having railway as the backbone of our passenger transport system, and the enhancement of the transport networks in various areas and throughout the territory. The development of railway transport not only can divert the flow of a large number of people, alleviate road congestion, reduce air pollution caused by vehicles, but also can release the development potential of the surrounding areas, and promote the development and economic activities in the areas concerned. We certainly will not only wish to benefit the consortia in the development process as we should focus on the benefits of society as a whole. If railway planning can be properly co-ordinated with land development, synergy effects will be created, which will provide the public with broader living space and promote the future development of Hong Kong in all aspects.
I got the following messages from the remarks just made by a number of Members. First, there should be comprehensive and balanced public transport development in different areas in Hong Kong. We should not just focus on the urban areas, but should also pay attention to the development needs of various parts of the New Territories, especially the areas with rapid population growth due to the promotion of new development areas and completion of large housing projects. Second, our transport policy of having the railway as the backbone is generally well supported, but we should not overlook the functions of other modes of public transport, neither should we construct railways for construction sake and we should give regard to cost-effectiveness of investment. Third, the development of railways should not be carried out after completion of development, or as mentioned by a Member, transport development would only be carried out after a threshold of population has been met. The existing government policy is to plan concurrently so as to achieve synergy effects. Fourth, given the framework of having the railway as the backbone, the operation and services of the MTRCL are very important because its service quality and fare levels directly affect people's livelihood. Some Members suggested that we should provide more favourable long-haul monthly pass and interchange concession.
4478 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
President, since the announcement of the Railway Development Strategy 2000 in 2000, we have proactively expanded our railway network and have completed eight railway projects. We are currently implementing five new railway projects and it is expected that these projects will be completed and open to traffic by phases from next year to 2020. Nonetheless, as I stressed in my opening remark, having railway as the backbone does not mean railway monopolization. We also regard highly the transportation functions of franchised buses and the complementary functions of other modes of public transport, with a view to creating a public transport system that is efficient and balanced and provides diversified choices.
We believe that railway development requires forward-looking vision and we should take on board the views of various sectors and the local community, and draw on collective wisdom. In view of this, we commissioned a consultancy study to review and update the Railway Development Strategy 2000 last year, and we have already completed two stages of public consultation, laying the foundation for the formulion of the long-term railway development blueprint after 2020. Throughout the course of the study, the consultants carefully examined the latest planning data and information, and analysed the local long-term passenger demand in light of the development potential and needs of various areas in Hong Kong, as well as the population growth in these areas.
As railway development projects cost tens of billions of dollars, we should also consider the social, economic and financial benefits of specific projects. The Government's goal is to explain to the community the way forward in railway projects next year, which will include the railway proposals mentioned in Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's original motion. I will not comment on the individual projects today and we will give an account next year. As for the technical details of individual projects, including the alignment and financing model, we still need to conduct further studies at the detailed design stage, and we will then consult the community again.
Miss CHAN Yuen-han's speech also reminded us that railway development projects are not at all simple. This does not only involve making a conceptual decision to build a railway, but also involves specific implementation and the effects of the alignment on the communities. Some impacts are unavoidable and we must handle them very carefully. This sometimes takes more time than expected, hence we have to put in our greatest efforts in the development of railway projects, as what we have done in respect of other large-scale projects.
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On the other hand, some Members are concerned about the future direction of development in mass transport system as a whole, as well as the role of the Light Rail. After the completion of the consultancy study to review and update the Railway Development Strategy 2000, and in light of the planning and implementation of various large-scale transport infrastructure, the Government will launch a study on the long-term development and layout of public transport. This will include a review of the Light Rail system for the formulation of the future public transport strategy.
Concerning railway services, in response to the views of Members of this Council and the community, the MTRCL has launched since March last year the Listening‧Responding Programme, and has invested $1 billion to implement a series of measures to improve services to provide convenience to passengers. In working out the arrangements for train services on various lines, the MTRCL will try its best to take into account the passengers in different regions, their riding patterns and loading at different stations, so that train services can meet the needs of passengers. The MTRCL has noted that, during peak hours, passengers at individual busier stations may have to wait for more than one train before boarding; for this reason, it will review the situation from time to time and make good use of train resources to provide more effective services, in order to alleviate possible congestion in the train compartments. The Transport Department will continue to monitor the service standards of the West Rail and Light Rail lines. In the long run, the Government will continue to examine if it is necessary to develop new railway projects to alleviate the existing or potential bottleneck road sections, and continuously enhance the effectiveness of the entire railway network.
President, I thank Members again for their motion, amendments and speeches. They have expressed valuable views on how to optimize our railway network and enhance MTR services from many different perspectives. The Government will attach importance to the latest development in society and we will frequently remind the MTRCL to pay attention to their service standards, and provide timely supporting services in response to the traffic demands in different areas.
Thank you, President.
4480 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now call upon Dr KWOK Ka-ki to move an amendment to the motion.
DR KWOK KA-KI (in Cantonese): President, I move that Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's motion be amended.
Dr KWOK Ka-ki moved the following amendment: (Translation)
"To delete "while" after "That," and substitute with "in the consultation document entitled 'Our Future Railway' Stage 2 public engagement exercise released in February this year, the Government put forward local railway enhancement schemes such as the Tuen Mun South Extension and the Hung Shui Kiu Station, etc., to integrate into the existing railway network and dovetail with the development plan for the Hung Shui Kiu New Development Area;"; to add "and many residents in the district need to work across districts and thus rely heavily on" after "rapidly,"; to delete "in the district are unable to meet the residents' demand, and with a number of new development plans in the district, the support of railway infrastructure is hence required; the Government has put forward a number of proposals on railway development in the 'Railway Development Strategy 2000', but the implementation dates of some proposals have yet to be set" after "and transport link" and substitute with "for commuting to and from urban areas"; to delete ", expeditiously implement the construction of the Northern Link, the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Express Line, the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan," after "development needs" and substitute with "and after completing the relevant public consultation, expeditiously implement the planning work for"; to delete "extend" after "Station, and" and substitute with "conduct comprehensive studies and public consultation on the development plans for the Northern Link, the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Express Line, the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan and the extension of"; and to add "improving the 'Monthly Pass Extra' scheme," after "facilities,"."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the amendment, moved by Dr KWOK Ka-ki to Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's motion, be passed.
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(Members raised their hands)
Miss Alice MAK rose to claim a division.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss Alice MAK has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for five minutes.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop.
(Mr Michael TIEN entered the Chamber in a hurry)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please wait for a while. Mr Michael TIEN, you are back to the Chamber late. We have finished voting on this amendment.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The result will be displayed.
Functional Constituencies:
Mr Albert HO, Mr James TO, Mr Tommy CHEUNG, Mr Frederick FUNG, Prof Joseph LEE, Dr LAM Tai-fai, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Dr LEUNG Ka-lau, Mr 4482 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
CHEUNG Kwok-che, Mr Frankie YICK, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr IP Kin-yuen, Mr POON Siu-ping, Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan and Mr Tony TSE voted for the amendment.
Mr WONG Ting-kwong, Ms Starry LEE, Mr IP Kwok-him and Mr Steven HO voted against the amendment.
Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr NG Leung-sing, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr Christopher CHEUNG, Mr Martin LIAO, Mr TANG Ka-piu and Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok abstained.
Geographical Constituencies:
Mr LEE Cheuk-yan, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Ms Emily LAU, Ms Cyd HO, Mrs Regina IP, Mr Paul TSE, Mr Alan LEONG, Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Ms Claudia MO, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr Gary FAN, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, Mr SIN Chung-kai and Dr Helena WONG voted for the amendment.
Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr TAM Yiu-chung, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Mr CHAN Han-pan, Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, Dr Elizabeth QUAT and Dr CHIANG Lai-wan voted against the amendment.
Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mr WONG Kwok-kin and Miss Alice MAK abstained.
THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 28 were present, 17 were in favour of the amendment, four against it and seven abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 30 were present, 19 were in favour of the amendment, seven against it and three abstained. Since the question was agreed LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4483 by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the amendment was passed.
MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): President, I move that in the event of further divisions being claimed in respect of the motion on "Enhancing the railway service in the Northwest New Territories" or any amendments thereto, this Council do proceed to each of such divisions immediately after the division bell has been rung for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr Albert HO be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the motion passed.
I order that in the event of further divisions being claimed in respect of the motion on "Enhancing the railway service in the Northwest New Territories" or 4484 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 any amendments thereto, this Council do proceed to each of such divisions immediately after the division bell has been rung for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members have already been informed, as Dr KWOK Ka-ki's amendment has been passed, Miss Alice MAK has withdrawn her amendment.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, as Dr KWOK Ka-ki's amendment has been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, I move that Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki be further amended by my revised amendment. In the revised text, the preceding amendment in the original version of my amendment has not been retained. However, the other amendments in the original version of my amendment are retained for the purpose of suggesting that equal emphasis should be given to the supporting transport services required for the Northwest New Territories in respect of economic development and people's livelihood, as well as the overall long-term planning of railway infrastructure in Hong Kong. I implore Honourable Members to support my revised amendment.
Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki: (Translation)
"To add "; at the same time, the Government should, by comprehensively considering factors such as Hong Kong's long-term population development trends, land and housing supplies and overall urban infrastructure planning etc., and based on the findings of the public consultation on 'Our Future Railway', expeditiously review and formulate Hong Kong's long-term railway development blueprint, and implement the planning concerned in a practical and orderly manner, so as to ensure Hong Kong's sustainable development" immediately before the full stop."
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4485
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok's amendment to Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the amendment passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Frankie YICK, as the amendments of Dr KWOK Ka-ki and Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok have been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
MR FRANKIE YICK (in Cantonese): I move that Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki and Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok be further amended by my revised amendment.
President, the Liberal Party has no objection to the amendments contained in the amendments of Dr KWOK Ka-ki and Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, but we hope that in the course of railway network expansion, the Government should also ensure planning for the co-ordination of other public transport modes with the development of the railway network, so that proper feeder services can be provided. Although railways are high-speed mass carriers, we cannot just concentrate on the development of railways and ignore its co-ordination with other public transport modes. At present, the railway network has already 4486 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 covered areas served by other public transport modes. Given the overlapping services, some public transport modes …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YICK, please do not repeat the points you have already raised.
MR FRANKIE YICK (in Cantonese): Okay, President. The revised amendment that I moved only seeks to add the request that the Government should "expeditiously launch the Fourth Comprehensive Transport Study" after the wording of Dr KWOK Ka-ki's and Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok's amendments. I hope Honourable Members will support my revised amendment.
Thank you, President.
Mr Frankie YICK moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki and Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok: (Translation)
"To add "; the Government should also expeditiously launch the Fourth Comprehensive Transport Study to enable the expansion of railway network to dovetail with the clear positioning of various modes of public transport, so as to provide people with more comprehensive transport network support" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Mr Frankie YICK's amendment to Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki and Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4487
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the amendment passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Michael TIEN, as the amendments of Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr Frankie YICK have been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
MR MICHAEL TIEN (in Cantonese): President, I move that Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr Frankie YICK be further amended by my revised amendment.
Mr Michael TIEN moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr Frankie YICK: (Translation)
"To add "; the Government should request the MTR Corporation Limited to continue to perfect the Fare Adjustment Mechanism; in the long run, the Government should also comprehensively review the retention or otherwise of the Light Rail, and study the replacement of the Light Rail with a viaduct railway" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Mr Michael TIEN's amendment to Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr Frankie YICK be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
4488 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(Members raised their hands)
Dr KWOK Ka-ki rose to claim a division.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr KWOK Ka-ki has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Functional Constituencies:
Mr Tommy CHEUNG, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr WONG Ting-kwong, Ms Starry LEE, Dr LAM Tai-fai, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Dr LEUNG Ka-lau, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr Steven HO, Mr Frankie YICK, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr Christopher CHEUNG, Mr Martin LIAO, Mr POON Siu-ping, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan and Mr Tony TSE voted for the amendment.
Mr Frederick FUNG, Prof Joseph LEE, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Mr Kenneth LEUNG and Mr Dennis KWOK voted against the amendment.
Mr Albert HO, Mr James TO, Mr NG Leung-sing, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr IP Kin-yuen and Mr TANG Ka-piu abstained.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4489
Geographical Constituencies:
Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr TAM Yiu-chung, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mrs Regina IP, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr Michael TIEN, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Mr CHAN Han-pan, Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, Dr Elizabeth QUAT and Dr CHIANG Lai-wan voted for the amendment.
Mr LEE Cheuk-yan, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Ms Cyd HO, Mr Alan LEONG, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Ms Claudia MO, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Dr KWOK Ka-ki and Dr Fernando CHEUNG voted against the amendment.
Ms Emily LAU, Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Mr Paul TSE, Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr Gary FAN, Miss Alice MAK, Mr SIN Chung-kai and Dr Helena WONG abstained.
THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 30 were present, 17 were in favour of the amendment, six against it and seven abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 31 were present, 12 were in favour of the amendment, nine against it and nine abstained. Since the question was not agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the amendment was negatived.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr SIN Chung-kai, as the amendments of Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr Frankie YICK have been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
MR SIN CHUNG-KAI (in Cantonese): President, I move that LEUNG Che-cheung's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr Frankie YICK be further amended by my revised amendment. President, I would like to "take a free ride" on the motion of Mr LEUNG Che-cheung and call 4490 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 for the support of our colleagues on the proposal of linking the transport network to the railway system of the Hong Kong Island. Thank you.
Mr SIN Chung-kai moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr Frankie YICK: (Translation)
"To add "; this Council also urges the Government based on the local enhancement schemes mentioned in the 'Our Future Railway' Stage 2 public engagement exercise to construct the North Island Line, Siu Sai Wan Line and South Island Line (West) etc., so as to improve the connection of the Northwest New Territories with other regions" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Mr SIN Chung-kai's amendment to Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr Frankie YICK be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No Member raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the amendment passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Albert CHAN, as the amendments of Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, Mr Frankie YICK and Mr SIN Chung-kai have been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4491
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): President, I move that Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, Mr Frankie YICK and Mr SIN Chung-kai be further amended by my revised amendment.
President, if my amendment is passed, I believe I will break the record of the Legislative Council because in the past, it was rare to have so many amendments passed. President, the focal point of my amendment is to rectify the mistakes that the Government made throughout the years in respect of the railway services in New Territories West. It is because there should be one railway station in a community with 50 000 to 80 000 residents, as in the case in New Territories East, Kowloon and on the Hong Kong Island. There are 300 000 people living in New Territories West but there is only one railway station, which is discriminating against the residents of New Territories West. I hope that we would address squarely the issue and correct the historical errors, as well as pass this motion to create a new historical record.
Mr Albert CHAN moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, Mr Frankie YICK and Mr SIN Chung-kai: (Translation)
"To add "; this Council also urges the Government to expeditiously construct a railway between Tuen Mun and Chek Lap Kok, so that every 50 000 to 80 000 people in New Territories West may use one large-scale railway station, thus bringing the ratio of railway stations to population in New Territories West on a par with that in urban areas, and introduce bus interchange services at all large MTR stations and the entrances and exits of major highways, tunnels and flyovers" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Mr Albert CHAN's amendment to Mr LEUNG Che-cheung's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, Mr Frankie YICK and Mr SIN Chung-kai be passed.
4492 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(Members raised their hands)
Mr LEE Cheuk-yan rose to claim a division.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEE Cheuk-yan has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Functional Constituencies:
Mr Albert HO, Mr James TO, Mr Tommy CHEUNG, Prof Joseph LEE, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr WONG Ting-kwong, Ms Starry LEE, Dr LAM Tai-fai, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Dr LEUNG Ka-lau, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr Steven HO, Mr Frankie YICK, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Dennis KWOK, Mr Christopher CHEUNG, Mr IP Kin-yuen, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan and Mr Tony TSE voted for the amendment.
Mr Frederick FUNG and Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che voted against the amendment.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4493
Mr NG Leung-sing, Mr YIU Si-wing, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr Martin LIAO, Mr POON Siu-ping and Mr TANG Ka-piu abstained.
Geographical Constituencies:
Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Ms Emily LAU, Mr TAM Yiu-chung, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mrs Regina IP, Mr Paul TSE, Mr Alan LEONG, Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Ms Claudia MO, Mr Michael TIEN, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr Gary FAN, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Mr CHAN Han-pan, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr SIN Chung-kai, Dr Helena WONG, Dr Elizabeth QUAT and Dr CHIANG Lai-wan voted for the amendment.
Mr LEE Cheuk-yan, Ms Cyd HO and Dr Fernando CHEUNG voted against the amendment.
Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Mr WONG Kwok-kin and Miss Alice MAK abstained.
THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 30 were present, 21 were in favour of the amendment, two against it and seven abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 32 were present, 24 were in favour of the amendment, three against it and four abstained. Since the question was agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the amendment was passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, you may now reply and you have four minutes three seconds.
4494 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, it is a matter of urgency to enhance the railway services in Northwest New Territories. As the Secretary has just mentioned, we are very concerned about this issue but it seems that the Government has not actively supported the development needs of Northwest New Territories. Therefore, I moved this motion today, hoping that the Government would be concerned that development and transport network support should be considered as a whole. I hope the Secretary would give an appropriate response in this regard.
Though Mr Albert CHAN's amendment is passed, he has just criticized the the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong (DAB) for failing to actively monitor the railway service. I am sorry that I disagree with him because we moved the motion today. I hope Mr Albert CHAN would treat the work of the DAB in this Council more fairly.
Once again, I call upon Honourable colleagues to make concerted efforts to improve people's livelihood as nothing about people's livelihood is trivial. I hope Honourable colleagues would support my original motion. Thank you.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, Mr Frankie YICK, Mr SIN Chung-kai and Mr Albert CHAN, be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4495 through direct elections, who are present. I declare the the motion as amended passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Third Member's motion: Stepping up the promotion of primary healthcare development and improving healthcare services for elderly people.
Members who wish to speak in the motion debate will please press the "Request to speak" button.
I now call upon Miss Alice MAK to speak and move the motion.
STEPPING UP THE PROMOTION OF PRIMARY HEALTHCARE DEVELOPMENT AND IMPROVING HEALTHCARE SERVICES FOR ELDERLY PEOPLE
MISS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): President, I move that the motion, as set out in Agenda, be passed.
President, in my original motion, I have made five proposals on promoting primary healthcare development and improving healthcare services for elderly people in Hong Kong. As the motion covers a wide scope, I will focus on presenting my views on primary healthcare development and later on, my colleagues of the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions (FTU) will supplement on the other parts of the proposals which I have put forward.
First of all, let me talk about the challenges to the local healthcare system brought about by population ageing in Hong Kong. According to the information provided in the Hospital Authority (HA) Statistical Report, as at 31 March 2012, the percentage of persons aged 65 or above among all the staying patients has risen to 52.7%. This indicates that more than half of the in-patients in public hospitals under the HA are elderly people. In addition, we have noticed that the total cost of medical services per 1 000 population for the elderly has increased from $21.6 million in 2007-2008 to $23.42 million in 2012-2013. The cost of medical services has increased by $3.62 million in six years.
4496 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Let us look at another set of figures. According to the latest information provided by the Census and Statistics Department in 2013, among all persons aged 65 or above, 148 700 have been hospitalized in the past year, compared with 121 000 plus in 2003 and 129 000 plus in 2009. This shows that there is a continuous upward trend of the number of elderly people staying in hospitals.
As we all know, Hong Kong will soon be at the peak of population ageing in the next 20 years. The burden on front-line healthcare services will become heavier. In addition, with the serious imbalance in distribution of workload between the public and private healthcare sectors and the continuous rise in the cost of medical services, it is expected that the public healthcare system will face an increasingly big challenge in the future. In particular, the situation concerning the capacity of public hospital services and the expenditure of the healthcare system will be even more serious.
In the face of the challenge to our healthcare system brought about by population ageing, we do not have an instant panacea, but as I mention in my motion, we can speed up the promotion of primary healthcare development to alleviate the problem. However, owing to the slow development in our primary healthcare system in the past, it cannot catch up with the needs arising from the current development of society. In addition, as efforts in disease prevention and patient diversion have not achieved satisfactory results, the pressure on front-line healthcare personnel is ever increasing.
Let me give an example. As mentioned earlier, 148 700 plus elderly people have been hospitalized in 2013. However, according to the same statistical report, among those elderly people, 48 600 have been hospitalized twice or more. In other words, over one third of the elderly have been hospitalized repeatedly during the year. If a comparison is made on different age groups, of all the patients who have been hospitalized repeatedly, 41.5% of them are elderly people and this percentage is higher than those of other age groups. The high costs of medical services for elderly people and their frequent hospitalization will surely impose pressure on healthcare expenditure. However, money is not the most important issue, as the suffering of the elderly is our prime concern. When the elderly are hospitalized repeatedly, they are the ones who suffer the most.
Perhaps many people may say, naturally elderly people would suffer from all kinds of illnesses and frequent hospitalization is not uncommon. That may LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4497 be true, but the problem is, our primary healthcare system is not well-developed. Although we once hoped to adopt the healthcare systems of the United Kingdom or Australia, we failed eventually, and our primary healthcare development is still lagging far behind. As efforts in disease prevention and healthcare education for the elderly have not been effective, the conditions of their illnesses cannot be controlled at the initial stage. In particular, as the conditions of elderly people suffering from chronic illnesses cannot be properly controlled or tended, their conditions may worsen and they have to be hospitalized or even repeatedly hospitalized. Therefore, I think the Government should step up the promotion of primary healthcare and utilize healthcare resources to ensure their proper usage.
Among all primary healthcare services, I believe dental healthcare is most urgently required. The tooth in my hand should be healthy as there are roots. According to the "80/20" dental healthcare target set by the World Health Organization (WHO) in 2001, an elderly person should at least have 20 teeth for normal chewing function at the age of 80. However, according to the information provided by the Department of Health, 200 000 elderly people in Hong Kong have lost all their teeth or only have tooth roots left. This situation is certainly undesirable. It is a shame that although Hong Kong claims to be a well-developed economy, the dental health of our elderly is very poor.
At present, there are only 11 government dental clinics in the 18 districts over the territory. These clinics only provide emergency services with limited hours of service; they only open for two days a week and a few consultation quotas are offered. On the other hand, private dental services are expensive. According to a survey conducted by the FTU, one third of the elderly have not consulted a dentist over the past four years. If they have a toothache, they would take painkillers or wait until the bad tooth fall out naturally because they cannot afford private dental services. If they want to get treatment in government dental clinics, they have to line up outside the clinic early in the morning. As some districts do not have a government dental clinic, some elderly people have to get up even earlier and travel to other districts with a government dental clinic to line up for a consultation quota. Therefore, some elderly people just do not bother to visit a dentist, but wait until their teeth fall out naturally. They can only have tofu and rice for every meal as they cannot chew other kinds of food.
We therefore propose that the Government should introduce "elderly dental care voucher" by making reference to the Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme, 4498 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 so as to reduce the costs of seeking private dental treatment by the elderly and lessen their tooth pain. Furthermore, under the concept of "money follows the user", some elderly people awaiting public dental services can seek private dental services instead, thereby improving the turnover rate of public dental services. Moreover, we consider that the Government also should enhance the quality and quantity of public dental services. Apart from increasing the daily consultation quotas provided by dental out-patient clinics, the Government should expeditiously establish public dental clinics in each of the 18 districts of Hong Kong, so that elderly people need not go to other districts to seek dental service. In the meantime, mobile dental services should be provided as a temporary measure to alleviate the burden on services provided by public dental clinics in various districts.
In this connection, the Government may once again say that money will be needed for such enhancement measures, and where can we have so much money? I would like to point out that early this year, the FTU proposed to the Government that the $100 million to be allocated to each of the 18 District Councils (DCs) for district development works, as suggested by the Chief Executive, should be spent on members of the public. Therefore, we proposed that the DCs should make use of the $100 million to provide subsidy to elderly people to seek dental consultation. The Kwai Tsing DC is the first DC to adopt our proposal. Half of the $100 million will be allocated for providing dental consultation fee subsidy to 10 000 elderly people. In addition, the Kwai Tsing DC has enlisted the co-operation of a charitable organization to provide mobile dental services. Therefore, Secretary, if a DC can manage to make such accomplishment, I think it will be a shame if our well-established Government fail to do so. I am asked by someone from the DC not to make excessive publicity, so as to avoid embarrassing the Government as it fails to accomplish what a DC can accomplish. Therefore, I hope the Secretary will not exert pressure on the DC in relation to this matter, and I also hope that the proposal will not only be implemented by the Kwai Tsing DC, but also by other DCs.
In fact, apart from allocating half of the $100 million for providing dental consultation fee subsidy to the elderly, the Kwai Tsing DC has used the remaining half of the fund for subsidizing the elderly for cataract examinations and treatment. Therefore, I think the Government should be able to do what a DC can do. Being a doctor who is bold and resolute in action, commands high popularity and kind at heart, I hope the Secretary can really do something for the elderly.
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As a long-term measure, the FTU has all along advocated the establishment of a universal dental care service scheme. We know that it will take a long time to establish the scheme from the stage of discussion to implementation, but we still hope that the Government will implement the scheme expeditiously and accord priority to persons aged 65 or above to benefit from the scheme. If the scheme cannot be implemented immediately, we urge the Government to adopt the FTU's proposal of introducing "elderly dental care voucher" which is the option to achieve quick effects. I hope to hear good news from the coming Policy Address and the Budget.
Furthermore, there is a very important issue concerning ageing in place and Miss CHAN Yuen-han will talk about it later. I once injured my leg and was hospitalized for 22 days. Since the Secretary is an orthopaedic surgeon, I believe he would understand that after surgery, an orthopaedic patient can either take rest in his ward or receive physiotherapy treatment, there is basically nothing much he can do. Hence, while I stayed in hospital, every morning I heard nurses making phone calls to family members of the elderly patients ― there are many elderly people in the orthopaedic ward, perhaps it is because they are prone to falls as their bones are weak and they cannot walk steadily ― asking them when they could come to pick up their elderly family member who could be discharged. However, the family members often said they did not have the time to go to the hospital. In fact, all discharged elderly people want to go home, but there is nobody to look after them at home. There is also a very personal problem which the Secretary may not realize if he has not been hospitalized. Elderly people who have leg injury cannot go to toilet by themselves and so sometimes, particularly during the night, nurses or care workers will make them wear diapers for the sake of convenience. However, elderly people detest such a practice because they think they can go to toilet by themselves.
Therefore, if subsidies can be provided to carers or family members to take care of elderly people at home with the help of community nurses, the elderly do not have to be compelled to stay in hospital and suffer. I hope the Secretary can discuss with the other Policy Bureaux and formulate cross-departmental policies so that treatment and ageing in place can be arranged properly. In addition, I hope that more community nurses can be deployed and the services of health promotion clinics, community health centres and elderly health centres can be further enhanced, so as to take care of elderly people suffering from chronic illnesses.
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I would also like to talk about psychiatric services for the elderly. While the psychiatric problems of the elderly are getting worse, the waiting time for treatment remain long. The Government once proposed to provide help and treatment at the out-patient level, which is the first doorway to primary healthcare, but given the immense pressure on out-patient services, it is difficult for out-patient clinics to provide treatment for elderly people suffering from chronic illnesses and mental health problems. Therefore, I think promoting primary healthcare development is a pressing task. I will reserve some time to respond to the speeches of Honourable colleagues later.
President, I so submit.
Miss Alice MAK moved the following motion: (Translation)
"That, as the population ageing in Hong Kong society has become increasingly serious, a heavy burden is expected to be imposed on the local healthcare system; and since primary healthcare, as the healthcare system's first contact point with patients and at the same time assumes the important functions of disease prevention, patients diversion, and promoting people's health, the quality and quantity of its service will become more important; yet, in the past, the Government allocated very limited resources to primary healthcare, resulting in the slow development of primary healthcare in Hong Kong and making it difficult to cope with the major challenges to the local healthcare system brought about by population ageing; in this connection, this Council urges the Government to take measures to step up the promotion of primary healthcare development, and accord priority to upgrading the quality and quantity of primary healthcare services for elderly people, so as to properly prepare for the heavy healthcare burden brought about by population ageing; the relevant measures should include:
(1) to review and improve the Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme ('HCVS'), conduct a study on the lowering of eligible age for applying for HCVS, and streamline the administrative procedures, so as to encourage more healthcare service providers to participate in HCVS;
(2) by making reference to HCVS, to introduce 'elderly dental care voucher'; and at the same time, to review and enhance the quality LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4501
and quantity of the existing public dental services, achieve the establishment of public dental clinics in each of the 18 districts of Hong Kong in the long run, and implement a universal dental care service scheme;
(3) to examine and enhance the existing Chinese medicine healthcare services of the public sector, and set up additional Chinese medicine clinics in various districts, so as to meet the increasing demand for Chinese medicine services; and, in the long run, to study the setting up of a Chinese medicine hospital for training and attracting Chinese medicine talents, so as to promote the popularization and development of Chinese medicine healthcare in Hong Kong;
(4) to enhance the existing services of elderly health centres, at the same time proactively study the setting up of additional community health centres in various districts to upgrade the comprehensiveness of services, and enhance the services of chronic disease management and integrated mental health, etc., with a view to promoting the development of primary healthcare and alleviating the pressure on hospital services; and
(5) to study the introduction of carer subsidies to encourage family members to discharge the responsibility of caring for the health of elderly people, and increase the number of community nurses so as to enhance home care for elderly people and chronic patients."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Miss Alice MAK be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Seven Members wish to move amendments to this motion. This Council will now proceed to a joint debate on the motion and the seven amendments.
I will first call upon Dr KWOK Ka-ki to speak, to be followed by Mr Albert HO, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mr Steven HO, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, Dr 4502 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
LEUNG Ka-lau and Mr Frankie YICK; but they may not move amendments at this stage.
DR KWOK KA-KI (in Cantonese): President, as Miss Alice MAK has proposed a very meaningful motion today, we can have a joint debate on the two subjects of "stepping up the promotion of primary healthcare development" and "improving healthcare services for elderly people" which are seemingly unrelated but actually interrelated.
According to the population policy consultation document released in late October, the number of people aged 65 or above will increase from 980 000 in 2012 (representing 14% of the total population) to 2.56 million in 2041 (representing 32% of the total population). The serious problem of population ageing will impose a heavier burden on healthcare services. Is that rubbing salt into the wound? As Members may know, almost all major public hospitals are packed with people recently. For example, a patient has to wait 15 hours in the accident and emergency department to be hospitalized. I believe anyone who has worked in a hospital, Secretary Dr KO Wing-man, Dr LEUNG and myself included, will know that we have to face a lot of pressure in winter every year. Many patients have to be hospitalized mainly because we have not provided effective primary healthcare, in particular, primary healthcare for the elderly. At present, among people aged 60 or above who are living in the community, 70% are chronically ill, and among those who are hospitalized, 97% are chronically ill. If primary healthcare, which is most important, cannot be enhanced within the healthcare system in Hong Kong, I believe the problem will not be resolved, no matter how many hospital beds we have. Although people aged 65 or above only constitute 14% of the total population, they constitute 50% of in-patients under the Hospital Authority.
The second part of the motion concerns healthcare services for the elderly. At present, the numbers of attendances of general out-patient clinics and specialist clinics are 5 million and 6 million respectively. However, the elderly constitute 37.5% of all patients of general out-patient clinics, and one third of patients of specialist clinics. From the above figures, we can see that the percentage of the elderly using healthcare services is disproportionately high. Therefore, we have to pay attention to this problem which is most important. The Government has introduced the Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme and as we all know, the voucher amount has increased this year and the elderly can also use the aggregate amount saved up in one go. However, it is very disappointing LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4503 that the Government is not willing to lower the age threshold of applicants to 65. As we know, persons aged between 65 and 70 are the ones who are most in need of primary healthcare and support. If the Government does not help these people now, it will eventually eat its own bitter fruit. If these elderly people cannot maintain a good health and do not get adequate support when they are aged between 65 and 70, they may need hospital services when they reach 70. Will the Government have to shoulder the same healthcare burden then? Let me give an example. If an elderly person who suffers from fever due to lung infection has to be hospitalized, according to my colleague specializing in internal medicine, this patient has to be hospitalized for at least seven days and sometimes even up to 10 days. As the current healthcare cost is $4,000 per day, the cost of hospitalization is $28,000 for seven days and $40,000 for 10 days. However, if that elderly person can be treated before he falls ill, or if primary healthcare is provided effectively and he can receive treatment in the community, the medical cost may be $300 to $400 per day, which will only cost about $2,000 from the public coffers per week. In this way, not only can valuable resources of the society be saved, the elderly do not have to be hospitalized so frequently.
President, the hospitalization rate in Hong Kong is the highest in the world, with France being the only place which has a comparable rate. Our rate is surely higher than many places, particularly those which have very high medical costs, including the Unites States, Japan and many other countries. Our hospitalization rate is high because the elderly cannot receive proper care and attention at home, in elderly homes and in the community. When their conditions worsen in the end, they have to be hospitalized. That is also why our rate of readmission to hospital is high. In the hardest hit areas such as Tuen Mun Hospital, the figures relating to operations are very unsatisfactory. What are the reasons for that? I had worked in Tuen Mun Hospital. In fact, the most worrying and heartbreaking problem is that the elderly people will only be sent to hospital when they are at a very critical stage. Many elderly people living in homes for the aged will only be sent to hospital when their medical or surgical conditions have reached the worst stage. This illustrates that if the Government fails to perform its gate-keeping function properly, no matter how much money it has put in healthcare, it will still be insufficient.
According to the figures provided by the Government, there are 720 000 elderly persons aged 70 or above. With each person is provided with Elderly Health Care Vouchers worth $1,000 each year, the total commitment is $720 million. If the age threshold of applicants is lowered to 65, the number of eligible applicants will be about 294 000, and the additional commitment will be 4504 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 less than $300 million. The elderly aged 65 or above will then be given proper care. Why does the Government not adopt this measure?
Secondly, I would like to talk about out-patient services or public hospital services. President, the Civic Party had conducted a survey and interviewed some elderly people who use general out-patient services. Most of the respondents told us that as consultation bookings were currently made through the computer, there were no live operators and they had to press certain buttons to make their bookings. This is not a problem for young people, particularly the new generation. However, to many elderly people, especially those who live alone, it is not an easy procedure. They often do not know what to do after they have picked up the phone and cannot make a consultation booking. As a result, they will give up making a booking and pay no attention to their medical conditions. When the booking system was first introduced, we had already suggested to the Government to set up a hotline so that those elderly people who did not know how to follow computerized instruction or were not accustomed to using the computerized system could communicate on the phone with an operator from the booking centre to arrange a booking for them. That would be a benevolent measure to help many people, but the Government has been making the excuse that it would cost a lot of money. However, the Government has not taken into account the cost for losing a life due to failure in receiving treatment.
The Government often claims that it is committed to providing proper primary healthcare. In this connection, I would like to talk about elderly health centres. As we know, there are more than 1 million elderly people in Hong Kong, but there are only 38 900 places in elderly health centres in the 18 districts, accounting for 4% of the total number of elderly persons aged 65. The longest waiting time is about 28 months. An elderly person may want to get a basic physical check-up at a cost which he can afford, so that he can seek treatment once any problems are identified. This is actually a basic request. However, the Government is so mean as to provide only 4% of the places required. I think that is most unkind.
I have also proposed to increase the number of woman health centres in my amendment. At present, there are only three woman health centres in Hong Kong which are located in Chai Wan, Lam Tin and Tuen Mun, and there are 10 centres which offer woman health services. In 2011, a total of 19 356 women were registered for such services and there were 36 000 attendances. Given that there were 3.77 million women in Hong Kong, less than 1% have received the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4505 services. Why has the Government neglected the health of women to such an extent that it has not established a woman health centre in each of the 18 districts to meet the needs of women comprehensively? I would like the Secretary to provide a clear answer to this question.
I think all of us would agree that dental service is important. Hence, we had jointly proposed with some relevant bodies (including the Hong Kong Dental Association) many years ago that the Government should provide comprehensive dental care service. Considering that many elderly people are toothless, as we know ― I hope the Secretary will not pretend that he does not know ― they cannot eat if they do not have any teeth, and the poor intake of nutrition will make them weak and fall ill easily. Eventually, they have to be admitted to hospital which will cost taxpayers $3,000 to $4,000 per day. I find it strange that the Government has not done what it should do. At present, the dental care service only include tooth extraction provided by 11 dental clinics, and no other dental services are provided. Members will later hear from the Secretary that funding has been earmarked by the Community Care Fund (CCF) for such services. But the CCF is a joke. Its administrative costs amount to more than $1 million, but only some $500,000 will be allocated to help the elderly. As many restrictions are imposed, many elderly people cannot benefit from the CCF. I think the Government should no longer delay in providing such services and it should introduce a comprehensive dental care service.
Finally, I would like to talk about psychogeriatric services. Although there are only 60 000 elderly people aged 70 or above suffering from dementia, it is estimated that the number will rise to 200 000 by 2040. On average, a person suffering from dementia will have to be cared for by two family members. However, all kinds of psychiatric services and psychogeriatric services in particular, are very inadequate. Given that consultation quotas, hospital beds and everything else are inadequate, the productivity of the society will eventually be compromised.
President, as there is not enough time, I can only speak on some main points, but I hope the Government will seriously review on primary healthcare which is certainly inadequate, so that all elderly people will be cared for and the rate of their hospitalization be reduced.
I so submit. Thank you, President.
4506 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): President, I speak in support of the motion on "Stepping up the promotion of primary healthcare development and improving healthcare services for elderly people" proposed by Miss Alice MAK today. To achieve this target, we have to implement four policies.
First, to enhance the community's understanding of the basic idea of "prevention is better than cure". Second, to provide community care and community nursing service to elderly people who are frail and ill as these two services are as important as hospital treatment. Third, in the face of population ageing, the Government should ensure that there will be sufficient resources to meet the increasing needs of medical services for elderly people. Fourth, in developing the public-private partnership projects, the Government should ensure that public healthcare service will provide a safety net as well as quality services.
President, I have proposed a number of revisions to Miss Alice MAK's motion and will elaborate on them.
First, regarding the Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme (HCVS), as there are 700 000 plus elderly people aged 70 or above and each of them can obtain vouchers worth $1,000, the annual total Government expenditure is about $720 million. The Democratic Party proposed to lower the eligible age for applying for HCVS to 65 and increase the HCVS rate to $1,500 a year, so that the total number of HCVS recipients will be around 1 million. These changes will increase the government expenditure to $1.54 billion per year which the Government can definitely afford.
As at late October 2012, about 3 500 service providers (including 1 580 doctors) providing various healthcare services have been registered in the HCVS, about 460 000 elderly people (that is, about 64% of eligible elderly people) have used the vouchers. The number of claim transactions was about 2.3 million and the accumulated expenditure was about $327.5 million.
When the Government increased the HCVS rate from $500 to $1,000, it said that the increase would give elderly people more choices of affordable healthcare services, particularly preventive care. Therefore, I believe if the rate is increased to $1,500, it will not only give elderly people more choices, but will also enhance their understanding of the basic concept of "prevention is better than cure", which will facilitate the promotion of community care and community nursing service.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4507
The second point which I would like to talk about is dental services for the elderly. At present, the public dental health services in Hong Kong only provide emergency services and the public dental health services provided by the Department of Health also focuses on providing emergency dental services to the public (including elderly people). The 11 Government Dental Clinics under the Department of Health provide emergency dental services to the public free of charge. The services cover treatment of acute dental diseases, prescription for pain relief, treatment of oral inflammation and abscess and teeth extraction. The Democratic Party proposes that the public dental clinics should provide more comprehensive services.
Since April 2011, the Government has implemented the Pilot Project on Outreach Primary Dental Care Services for the Elderly jointly with non-governmental organizations (NGOs) to provide outreach basic dental and oral healthcare services to the elderly. These services cover basic dental services such as dental check-up, scaling and polishing, pain relief and emergency dental treatments. If the elderly require further follow-up treatment such as denture-fixing and tooth-filling services, such will be provided by the participating NGOs and depending on the circumstances, arrangements can be made on behalf of the elderly to apply for dental grants under the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance Scheme (CSSA) or other financial assistance. The Democratic Party considers there is a need to extend such services which are very important to the dental health of the elderly and will help to improve the quality of their lives.
Third, in relation to Chinese medicine treatment, the Democratic Party agrees that such services are very useful to the elderly. However, at present, the Chinese medicine out-patient services for CSSA recipients only cover the costs of medicine and acupuncture services are not included. Since the medical effectiveness of acupuncture has been recognized and acupuncture services can indeed help people with mobility problems or people who have musculo-skeletal injuries, the Government should consider expanding the scope of Chinese medicine treatment to cover acupuncture services.
I have proposed in the amendment to "study the setting up of additional Chinese medicine clinics in various districts, so as to meet the increasing demand for Chinese medicine services". The Democratic Party is not opposing to the proposal to set up additional Chinese medicine clinics, but we consider that studies should be conducted and the demand for such services should be 4508 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 quantified first, so that proper planning can be made and resources allocated for Chinese medicine services can be reasonably increased.
President, in 2010, both the University of Hong Kong (the HKU) and The Chinese University of Hong Kong (CUHK) which are responsible for training 50% of the graduates of Chinese medicine degree programmes criticized the Government for "attaching importance to Western medicine and neglecting Chinese medicine". The two universities unanimously held the same opinion. Apart from the problem of inadequate resources allocated for the development of Chinese medicine, the monthly salary of most of the graduates of Chinese medicine degree programmes working in public Chinese medicine clinics under the Hospital Authority (HA) only ranges from $15,000 to $16,000 which is far lower than the starting point of doctors and is also lower than that of healthcare professionals, such as registered nurse, occupational therapist and occupational therapist. It is therefore hard to retain talents and attract new blood. The two universities that I have mentioned earlier, the HKU and CUHK, have suggested the authorities to introduce a pay scale for Chinese medicine practitioners similar to that for public hospital staff and raise their starting salary. The Democratic Party agrees to these suggestions.
Fourth, we propose to provide half-fee concessions to elderly people using public healthcare services. At present, the elderly health centres under the Department of Health provide physical check-up, counselling and curative treatment, as well as health education for elderly people aged 65 or above. Regarding healthcare services, all hospitals under the HA provide geriatric hospital beds and some specified clinics have special arrangements to accord priority to elderly people aged 65 or above in providing consultation services. The elderly person will stand in another queue and have a shorter waiting time after telling the staff responsible for distributing the consultation slots his or her age and showing the identity card. However, the elderly do not have any fee concessions in using public healthcare services. Therefore, I think the Government should provide half-fee concessions to elderly people using public healthcare services.
Fifth, setting up an "old age population reserve fund". The Democratic Party makes this proposal in view of the population ageing problem. According to the projections of the Steering Committee on Population Policy, persons aged 65 or above will comprise 14% of the total population in 2015, 28% in 2031 and the percentage will increase to 32% in 2041. The seriousness of population LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4509 ageing can be seen. We propose to allocate $50 billion to set up an "old age population reserve fund" with regular injections so that the Government will have sufficient capital to strengthen the related services to meet the increasing demand in healthcare services in the future.
I so submit.
DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, the King of Medicine of the Tang Dynasty, SUN Simiao, once said, "A superior doctor cures an illness before it manifests itself; a mediocre doctor cures an illness on the point of manifesting itself; an inferior doctor cures an illness that has manifested itself." A mediocre doctor2 in this context refers to an average doctor.
President, Hong Kong has a serious problem of population ageing. According to the projections made by the Census and Statistics Department, one in every four Hong Kong people will be an elderly person aged over 65 by 2031, and the elderly population will increase to such an extent that one in every 10 Hong Kong people will be aged over 80 by 2039. I believe that by that time, the vast majority of Honourable colleagues in this Chamber will be elderly people.
According to the data released by the Society for Community Organization, about 370 000 grass-roots elderly people in Hong Kong spend less than $2,000 per month, and they can only rely on public healthcare services. Given the current proportion of elderly people, our public healthcare expenditure already amounts to $48.8 billion. With the increase in the elderly population, our public finances are bound to be under increasing pressure, and the burden on our next generation is immeasurable. A doctor friend of mine has told me that generally, patients tend to spend almost half of their life savings on healthcare in their final two years of life. I thus strongly support the various proposals in Miss Alice MAK's original motion, based on which I am suggesting additional ideas.
First of all, I propose enhancing the Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme (HCVS). Launched as a pilot project in 2008, the HCVS will be converted into a recurrent support programme next year. One of the problems with this scheme
2 In Chinese, "mediocre doctor" and "Chinese medicine practitioner" are homonyms. 4510 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 is that patients need to seek cross-district medical treatment. After comparing the distribution of the institutions participating in the HCVS with the number of elderly people using the vouchers, we have found mismatches. For instance, although Kwun Tong district and Wong Tai Sin district have relatively more elderly residents, the number of participating institutions in these districts is far from sufficient, and as a result, elderly people have no alternative but to travel long distance to other districts in order to use the vouchers for medical treatment, and most of the time, they need to be accompanied by others in doing so. In view of this, the authorities should consider relaxing the terms for using the vouchers, and allow a voucher amount greater than the service charge so that the elderly would not have to pay the balance at their own expense. Meanwhile, the authorities should also streamline the procedures so that the elderly would not have to travel to other districts.
Apart from improving the operation of the HCVS, we also propose that the HCVS rate be increased from the current $1,000 to $2,000 per person per year. The Business and Professionals Alliance for Hong Kong has formally put forth this proposal at its meeting with the Chief Executive. For example, many elderly people suffer from eye diseases, and as Members may know, the basic charge for a check for eye diseases currently stands at $800 per visit; for cataract patients, the medical charge is even as high as $20,000 to $30,000. In addition to raising the rate to $2,000, we also suggest that a study be conducted on lowering the eligible age to 65 if it is financially viable. On many occasions when I visited the districts, I was asked by elderly persons whether those aged between 60 and 65 were deemed elderly. They called on Members to consider allowing them to get certain healthcare assistance. An increase in the HCVS rate can encourage the elderly to use private healthcare services as far as possible on the one hand, and alleviate the burden on public healthcare services on the other.
Secondly, of course I have to talk about the Hospital Authority Drug Formulary. The Formulary now covers 1 300 standard drugs. But regarding drugs such as blood pressure drugs, target therapy drugs for treating cancers and specific drugs for treating dementia that are commonly used by the chronically ill, particularly the elderly, many of them are not covered by the Formulary. In my view, an expansion of the Formulary can directly benefit elderly patients. According to many responses received by us so far, it is often the case that patients who purchase these prescription drugs at their own cost have to pay as much as ten thousand to several dozen thousand dollars, and in some cases they LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4511 even have to pay over a hundred thousand dollars. I believe that such a burden has really put the entire family of the patient in indescribable misery.
While the Samaritan Fund does provide financial assistance, some patient organizations have commented that if a couple of family members of the patient are working, it is impossible for the patient to apply for such assistance because the threshold of the means test is too high. Even if such assistance is provided, patients very often have to use a certain proportion of it to contribute to the drug costs, so it is actually a co-payment arrangement. This being the case, if an elderly member of the family is a patient, the whole family is worried, for there is no reason to watch the elderly member suffer without taking any actions.
According to the information of the Hospital Authority, for a patient whose annual disposable financial resources amount to over $180,000, the contribution ratio is as high as 20%, which means that the patient needs to bear the full cost of drugs valued at $36,000 or below. It has been reported that a teacher once spilt a pill in half to be taken on two separate days. When even a person with a job has to resort to such act, the situation must be more difficult for those elderly people who live on their own savings.
In this connection, I think we have to take medical insurance into account. Many middle-class people take out medical insurance during their employment, so that they can enjoy healthcare services of higher quality, but most of them are not willing to continue to make contributions once they attain the age of 60. Even if they have a job, not every one of them is willing to pay a few thousand dollars or so per month on average for medical insurance. So, once they retire, they will default on their contributions and turn to public healthcare services, resulting in a sudden decline in the quality of healthcare they are entitled to. Therefore, in any event, we have to consider how to encourage the elderly or retirees to continue to make contributions, and encourage their children to continue to make medical insurance contributions for them. We can consider introducing tax concessions or providing a subsidy, and so on, to people who are willing to make medical insurance contributions for their parents. This can help alleviate the pressure on public healthcare services.
Fourthly, toothache is a fate worse than death. A number of Honourable colleagues have already mentioned the problem of insufficient dental services. Moreover, elderly people who are toothless look even more aged, and they tend to think psychologically that they are very unhealthy and do not want to meet 4512 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 other people. Sometimes, this will even have an impact on their state of mind. I have recently visited different districts, particularly those densely populated by elderly people, and learnt that the idea of mobile dental service vans is very well received by the elderly, as this can spare them the trouble of travelling to other districts and enable them to receive urgent dental services in the vicinity without having to ask their children to take leave from work to accompany them. I very much hope that the Secretary will consider this popular idea.
Lastly, we should enhance Chinese medicine services. I am certainly in strong support of Chinese medicine, because Chinese medicine is remarkably efficacious in disease prevention and health maintenance, and it can complement Western medicine. Chinese medicine is very popular with Chinese people. All along, we have strongly supported the Government to seriously consider the expeditious establishment of a Chinese medicine hospital. In this regard, there are very successful examples in major Mainland cities, such as Guangzhou. In some cases, the health of patients suffering from intractable illnesses or severe diseases can be improved significantly after a long-term Chinese medicine treatment complemented by Western medicine.
Furthermore, in my amendment, I have also mentioned the Pilot Scheme on Community Care Service Voucher for the Elderly. I want to tell the Secretary that although an eligible elderly person can receive $5,800 a month, not many elderly people have used such vouchers. According to the figures, only about 13% of the elderly have participated in the scheme. Many elderly people say that they do not want to participate in the scheme for fear that their applications for admission to public residential care homes would be frozen. I would like to specifically point out that we have recommended women groups in the community to encourage family members to look after their elders who are in need of full-time care. Many family members have quit their jobs, as they do not want to leave their elders alone at home or find outsiders to take care of their elders. I hope that the authorities can consider providing a special subsidy of some $4,000 to people who provide full-time care for their elders at home, especially those who used to work but have quit their jobs for taking care of their elders.
At the end of the day, it is of course about money. We hope that apart from the many healthcare financing reforms currently proposed, the Government can, like putting money into a money box, allocate $10 billion to the healthcare system (particularly public healthcare system) every year if it has a surplus. It is LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4513 really worthwhile to do so, because while it is necessary for us to improve public and private healthcare services in line with future healthcare plans, public healthcare remains a very important part of our safety net, and the public healthcare service system of Hong Kong is much acclaimed.
President, as Mencius said, "Extend your respect for your aged parents to all the aged, and extend your love for your own children to all children." Many family members who live with their elders may soon become elderly themselves. So we hope that the Government can plan ahead in this regard and improve the healthcare protection for the elderly. This is indeed the top priority of society.
President, I so submit.
MR STEVEN HO (in Cantonese): Dr Priscilla LEUNG, I have no idea whether I will still have a young body 20 years from now, but I am sure that I will still be young at heart. I am confident about that. However, as the old saying goes, birth, age, illness and death are inevitable stages in life, and these four stages have a lot to do with healthcare services. I was born under a surgical light, and I believe I will probably pass away in a hospital. I do not think I can estimate the number of times I have to see doctors during my lifetime. So healthcare is really important to people.
But has the SAR Government done anything in this regard? Yes, it has done quite a lot. The Hospital Authority (HA) has provided many inexpensive public healthcare services for the general public over the years in adherence to the healthcare service principle that "no one should be denied adequate healthcare through lack of means". Yet, our society is facing many different challenges, and one of the current challenges is the problem of population ageing. In other words, the burden of healthcare arising from an ageing population is bound to increase in future. I believe that no one wants our healthcare services to be stretched to the limit and become fully saturated before we shout for help; even if we shout for help, we may have to wait, as in the case of queuing up for kindergarten places. Therefore, the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong (DAB) supports the original motion today. The other amendments seek to add various proposals to the original motion, and I am not going to harp on what has been said. I will focus on the new ideas added by us.
4514 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
First of all, I wish to talk about the "iron triangle of medical consultation", namely general out-patient, specialist out-patient, as well as accident and emergency (A&E) department services. Why do I describe them as an iron triangle? It is very simple. At present, public general and specialist out-patient services are not available round the clock; that is, such services are not available late at night or on holidays. I am afraid it is quite difficult for people feeling ill late at night or after work to consult doctors at public hospitals without making telephone appointments. But what if they are indeed in urgent need of medical attention? They have no alternative but to go to A&E departments, where they have to queue up for this and that. I watched the news yesterday, only to learn that people had to wait six hours. The wait may be six hours today, but will it still be six hours 20 years later when all of us are old, if the Government does nothing about it? By that time, people may have to wait 12 hours, and may even need to bring bedding with them for queuing up.
Judging from this, the A&E services no longer only deal with emergency cases, but have become out-patient services during non-office hours to a certain extent. Our spokesman on hygiene issues, Mr CHAN Han-pan, has also visited different A&E departments and talked with a lot of members of the public. Many of them told us that as it was going to be a long night, they really did not want to see the doctor ― no, to wait since they might not be able to see the doctor ― in an A&E department which, to their mind, is a place full of germs ― the words "to their mind" are added by me. So I really hope that the authorities can increase the quotas of general and specialist out-patient services, and at the same time try to introduce late-night out-patient services. Only in this way can the pressure on A&E departments be effectively alleviated.
President, regarding the general out-patient telephone appointment service mentioned just now, it is truly a matter that warrants our discussion. I remember that last week, a Member brought up the issue of healthcare services for ethnic minorities, and it was mentioned that language barrier was one of the main causes for their failures to make appointments for out-patient services. This is also a problem facing Chinese people. I know many kaifongs who mainly speak in the Chiu Chow and Fujian dialects. They do not know English, and they may not even understand Putonghua or Cantonese unless they listen to it with full attention. I bear no comparison with Mr CHAN Han-pan in that he speaks both dialects. However, Mr CHAN Han-pan may not be always by their side. So sometimes, they are really unable to make appointments by telephone. Even if LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4515 the elderly manage to understand what they hear with an effort, they still need to press the telephone buttons continuously, and sometimes they may mishear "one" as "seven"3, get stuck with the same option despite much button-pressing, and fail to make appointments in the end. So I think this service needs to be enhanced.
Moreover, the healthcare vouchers offered by the Government to them are only valued at several hundred or a thousand dollars. I would not go so far as to think that several hundred or a thousand dollars is like rubbish, but frankly, it is not enough to pay for many medical consultations a year. I thus wonder how the Government looks upon our elders. I very much hope that the Government can really listen to their requests and provide them with an out-patient telephone appointment service to be answered by live operators, so that they do not have to refrain from consulting doctors for the sake of saving money, or otherwise to try to fill gaps left by no-show patients, like people taking up the no-show sessions for the sports grounds of the Leisure and Cultural Services Department. I do not want to see this happen.
Furthermore, I have included in my amendment the proposal to expand the scope of Public-Private Partnership (PPP) projects in healthcare. This is nothing new, but this is considerably important for healthcare at the primary level as well as for the elderly. The HA has in place different PPP projects, including specialist programmes such as the Cataract Surgeries Programme and the Pilot Project on Enhancing Radiological Investigation Services through Collaboration with the Private Sector, and even General Out-patient Clinic PPP Programme and Shared Care Programme. These services have been operating quite successfully, so it can be seen that projects of this kind are in demand and effective. Given so much experience, we really hope that the Hospital Authority can keep it up and continue the implementation of such services, especially those targeted at the chronically ill and particular specialties that are in great demand by elderly people who suffer from cataracts, diseases of the ear, nose and throat, hypertension, diabetes, and so on, which require regular follow-up consultations and medications. If this can be done, not only the waiting time can be shortened to a certain extent, but the pressure on healthcare staff of relevant specialties may also be reduced.
3 The pronunciations of "one" and "seven" in Putonghua or Cantonese are quite similar. 4516 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
But, to be fair, if we keep demanding that the quotas of general out-patient services be increased and the service quality be improved without considering the work pressure on healthcare personnel, we really cannot justify ourselves. I do not want them to overwork until they are worn out and half dead with exhaustion under excessive work pressure. Nor do I want to see a gradual loss of enthusiastic professionals to the private market, where the remuneration packages are better. Earlier, my mother told me that she had been watching a television drama aptly entitled On Call 36 Hours. The DAB has some specialists working in public hospitals. According to them, they are short of hands, and when they are required to be on call in addition to their normal working hours, they may have to be on call for 48 hours. They simply have no time for lectures or training, and even if they have time to sleep, they may not sleep well. I do not want them to be ill, worn out and dispirited because of overwork and thus be forced to leave their posts against their will. Secretary Dr KO, I know that you are not feeling well today, and I do not want you to be ill, worn out and dispirited because of overwork and thus be forced to leave your post. Therefore, I hope that the Government can face up to this problem.
On the last occasion, I heard Secretary Dr KO Wing-man say that the public healthcare sector is now experiencing a dire shortage of manpower, and that the situation may be gradually improved by 2015 or 2016. However, we cannot just wait like this. I hope that the Hospital Authority can take account of the current levels of remunerations and benefits offered on the market, and see if anything can be done in this regard to retain healthcare personnel. Meanwhile, as the Medical Council will increase the frequency of holding the Licensing Examination for medical practitioners from next year onwards, we really should take the opportunity to attract more Hong Kong students studying medicine overseas to return to Hong Kong, so that the healthcare manpower of public hospitals can be restored to a reasonable level.
President, I believe that no patient is willing to be hospitalized frequently or for an extended period. So, in the last point of my amendment, I urge the Government to allocate additional resources to enhance community healthcare support and outreach healthcare services by, for example, working with different social welfare institutions and NGOs, so as to provide patients with appropriate support and ease the burden on the families of patients in taking care of them.
Lastly, on behalf of the DAB, I would like to express our stance on the other amendments. The DAB supports the amendments proposed by Dr KWOK LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4517
Ka-ki, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Dr LEUNG Ka-lau and Mr Frankie YICK. In his amendment, Dr Fernando CHEUNG has crossed out the part on the introduction of "elderly dental care voucher", but I think there should be no contradiction between the development of public dental services and the establishment of "elderly dental care voucher". This is because healthcare vouchers can be used for seeing dentists, so if the elderly save up healthcare vouchers for treating other illnesses instead of seeing dentists, it is not good for them. But it is fine if the healthcare voucher amount is increased. As to Mr Albert HO's amendment, to be honest, we have to consider it further.
Thank you, President.
DR FERNANDO CHEUNG (in Cantonese): I thank Miss Alice MAK for proposing this motion concerning primary healthcare and improving healthcare services for elderly people today. For the amendments proposed by a number of Members, I support most of them, but I have reservation about those concerning healthcare vouchers. I will explain this later on.
Primary healthcare is very important and the World Health Organization (WHO) acknowledged in 1978 that the provision of primary healthcare services was the world trend. Primary healthcare services refer to healthcare services that are accessible by and essential to ordinary people. If we can provide effective disease treatment and prevention, promote behavior conducive to health, as well as enhance people's knowledge on healthcare, the need for specialist services and hospitalization will be minimized in the future. I think this is common sense as Chinese people always say "seek medical treatment before the condition gets too serious" and "prevention is better than cure".
While the rest of the world has already introduced primary healthcare, Hong Kong now follows suit and the discussion has been underway for years. However, as many Members have said, it is extremely difficult to book out-patient services by telephone for the most elementary service. First, there is insufficient quota and the most common reply is that the quota is full. Second, the telephone appointment system is a challenge to many elderly people and persons with disabilities as they cannot handle it at all. Let us imagine how an elderly person living alone and suffering from rheumatoid arthritis can complete the booking procedure when he can hardly control his fingers.
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President, we have actually made the following requests for year. First of all, increase the quotas for telephone appointment, which is indisputable. Secondly, there should be live operators so that people making the calls can talk to them direct. Thirdly, there should be reserved quotas for elderly people who fall sick and seek medical treatment at the clinics. At present, patients who go to public clinics in person to seek medical consultation will be rejected, but will at most be given a telephone number for making appointment on their own. This is really ridiculous. What will happen if elderly people or persons with disabilities in need of medical treatment cannot see a doctor at the clinic? They will have to go to the accident and emergency (A&E) departments and wait six to seven hours. Worse still, they will be accused of abusing A&E service. In fact, this so-called "abuse" is caused by the poor primary healthcare services. They have no alternative but to turn to A&E departments. All these are therefore closely related.
The WHO has put forward five principles for primary healthcare, and the first one is accessibility. Accessibility does not only refer to the absence of barrier for wheelchairs, or the absence of chemical and physical barriers, but also refers to the availability of services for patients and people in need. In the abovementioned cases, all the people concerned failed to receive the relevant services. We consider it most fundamental to set up health centres in the community, just as the WHO has advocated. At present, we do have elderly health centres, but the number has remained unchanged for a decade. By how many has the number of people in need increased during the past decade? Neither is there any plan for increase in the future. As a result, elderly people have to wait more than one year on average, or two to three years in other districts. The waiting time is even as long as four years in Sha Tin. This is ridiculous. If elderly people have to wait for years for healthcare services, how can the Government achieve prevention in primary healthcare? This is impossible.
The case is similar for dental service. The second principle that we are going to discuss mainly stresses prevention and health promotion, but not purely treatment. If prevention can be done, there will be no need for treatment. The health centres or dental clinics set up in the community can then provide scaling and dental check-up services which are essential to elderly people and persons with disabilities. There are currently 11 dental clinics, but as Members may be aware, the figure is deceiving. These clinics open about once a week and operate for two sessions each week, and half day for each session. In order to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4519 get one of the 80 quotas, people have to queue up one night earlier. But the dental clinics only provide extraction and pain relief services and nothing else. How can this be regarded as primary healthcare? This has completely breached the principles.
From a medical viewpoint, it takes time for a doctor to explain to the patients their medical conditions, the appropriate exercise to do, the things that cannot be done to prevent the conditions from getting serious or even prevent something from happening. Nonetheless, patients have to wait for months and even years for general out-patient and specialist out-patient services, and the time for consultation is very short ― No, patients have to wait two hours at the clinic but can only see the doctor for five minutes before they are expelled. How can this be regarded as primary healthcare? This runs contrary to the principles as proclaimed by the WHO in 1978.
The third principle is community participation, which is completely absent in Hong Kong. Is there any participation for patients in Hong Kong? Participation has an implication of diversity. In Hong Kong, we have different ethnic minorities and various kinds of persons with disabilities, but can they get the necessary information? Do they have appropriate verbal communication? Rarely. The Government has not translated the names of certain drugs for them, which is indeed a big problem.
The fourth principle is appropriate technology, and the case is similar for drugs. Upon the development of the Drug Formulary of the Hospital Authority (HA), many drugs were removed. Patients have to pay for those relatively more expensive drugs, and a number of equipment will no longer be provided. As a result, many patients cannot receive appropriate treatment because of lack of financial means.
The fifth principle is inter-sectoral collaboration and I want to use dementia as an example. As a matter of fact, there is a trend of dementia patients being younger. Nonetheless, according to the practice of the social welfare sector, people aged over 60 who want to apply for day-care or home-based services must go through a standardized assessment, but the assessment tools mainly focus on the functional disabilities and concern little about cognitive or mental impairment. As a result, elderly people with dementia often fail in their assessment and are not provided with the services. Dementia patients can only wait until their condition worsens to an extent that meets the relevant 4520 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 requirement, then they will receive either day care or home-based service. Yet, it is already too late. Doctors from the HA may say that the patients do suffer from dementia, but as the services are provided through the social welfare sector under the existing system, such patients are eligible for services upon assessment. Do Members find this ridiculous?
Furthermore, even if services are eventually provided, it does not mean that they best suit the patients. At present, no subsidized elderly day care centre is specialized in serving dementia patients. What happened then? Given that there is no waiting list for dementia patients, nor are they eligible for the relevant services, they can only pay for the treatment provided by those self-financed institutions, which charge as high as a few hundred dollars per day. If patients cannot afford to be treated for four or five times a week, they can only be treated once a week. Since continuous treatment are required to be effective, it is useless and a waste of money if patients are treated only once a week. This is how resources are allocated at present. The HA and the social welfare sector are completely independent and have no co-ordination at all. The failure to provide appropriate medical treatments for elderly people would leave behind certain bills for us to foot in the future. Although the WHO has highlighted the importance of primary healthcare in 1978, long-term healthcare services are only provided on age basis, which is meaningless. I beg the authorities to seriously consider restructuring Hong Kong's healthcare system.
Since there is still some time left, I would like to make a brief response. We do not support the introduction of healthcare vouchers as they serve little purpose. Also, it has completely failed to balance medical services provided by the public and private sectors due to the low utilization rate (The buzzer sounded) … We therefore do not support it. Thank you, President.
DR LEUNG KA-LAU (in Cantonese): I thank Miss Alice MAK and other five Members for proposing this motion and various amendments, and most of their proposals are pretty good. Although I have some reservations about certain proposals, I will support the motion and all the amendments, and I also hope that Members will support my amendment.
(THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, MR ANDREW LEUNG, took the Chair)
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4521
I would like to bring out some concepts for discussion, and let us start with a simple one. Miss Alice MAK just now said that the increasing hospitalization rate of elderly people is attributable to a lack of primary healthcare services. Is that true? While I think the hospitalization rate is affected by many factors, I do agree that community support is lacking. But is primary healthcare service also lacking? I would like to first correct Members' understanding by highlighting that 85% of Hong Kong's primary healthcare services is provided by the private sector, and only 15% is provided by the public sector. Given that the private sector has taken up such a large market share, the quantity and quality of services are pretty satisfactory. Cases would not be arbitrarily transferred to the specialist departments unless necessary. We sometimes jokingly said that many family doctors and general practitioners are "diplomatosis". What does this mean? It means that they study hard to obtain diplomas in various disciplines, such as dermatology, ophthalmology and psychiatry, with a view to providing comprehensive support for patients.
Furthermore, I think one of the most important reasons for the rising hospitalization rate for the elderly is the long lifespan of Hong Kong people. Longer lifespan naturally means a higher chance of hospitalization. Why do the elderly have a long lifespan? Can we place all the credits on the Hospital Authority (HA)? As Members may be aware, primary healthcare is more important than the third or fourth layer, this is why I think primary healthcare in Hong Kong is pretty good on the whole. What has gone wrong then? The problem lies in the HA. What has happened to the HA?
People have an impression that, under the governance of the HA, the waiting time is very long, especially specialist services. How come the waiting time for specialist services is so long? Because there are some problems with the HA's primary healthcare system, resulting in more than 30% of the HA's specialist cases being internal transfer cases. In other words, patients are being transferred from one department to another. I estimate that 50% of the cases referred to the specialist out-patient clinics actually do not need specialist services as most of them (I would say 70% to 80%) do not involve complicated complaints from patients. The illness can be handled by family doctors. But in the absence of a screening system, HA patients have been transferred from one specialist out-patient clinic to another.
I have once cited an example. When I was still serving in a public hospital as a surgeon, a haemorrhoid patient came to seek colorectal out-patient 4522 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 services. Let me put it this way. If a haemorrhoid patient complained about the pain and was diagnosed to have gallstones as well, what would a doctor of the HA's specialist out-patient clinic do even though he is not the patient's attending doctor? Given the division of work, the patient was then referred to the division of gastro-intestinal for treatment and had to wait for 12 to 18 months, probably because his condition was not urgent. I have come across some even more interesting cases. A patient was not treated by me in the first place, but by an intern, who has to work in different surgical departments under various specialist divisions. It turned out that 18 months later, the intern was transferred to the division of gastro-intestinal and met the haemorrhoid patient again. Both of them felt very sad on this occasion. Why should the patient have to wait for another year for no reason? Why should the doctor handle an additional case for no reason instead of treating the patient in one go?
There is another saddening case recently which only involves the division of gastro-intestinal. This is a real case of a haemorrhoid patient who could have undergone ligation immediately in an out-patient clinic. Ligation of haemorrhoid could have been done right away if such a need arises, but given the authentication requirement of the HA and the occupational health hazard arising from the need to sterilize the equipment for the ligation of haemorrhoid immediately afterwards, coupled with the need to authenticate the name of the patient who has used certain equipment, it was proposed that an out-patient clinic should be set up to specialize in the ligation of haemorrhoid. It therefore took him another three months' wait. To save the trouble of sterilizing the equipment and marking the name of the patients who have used certain equipment, a simpler way is to use disposable equipment costing about $100. This is simple and easy. Thus, I have no idea what administrative problem the HA has encountered that makes the waiting time longer and longer.
After all, the biggest problem lies in the HA. Looking at the figure of the previous year, it shows that the number of attendances of specialist out-patient services was 6.8 million, and about 5.7 million for general and integrated out-patient services, which are out-patient services that have a wider coverage and may make referrals to specialist services. As a matter of fact, a more ideal approach is to lay down service targets and restructure the specialist or the entire out-patient services, with a view to reducing the target attendances of specialist out-patient services to 4 million while allowing the number of attendances of general and integrated out-patient services to reach as high as 7 million. While enhancing the necessary services, a mechanism should be put in place to ensure LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4523 that the enhanced services can really bring down the number of attendances of specialist services, thereby saving the patients' trouble to seek consultation time and again. This approach can therefore kills three birds with one stone.
Why would I make this comment? For patients, reducing the number of attendances would mean shortening of the waiting time. Also, patients will receive more comprehensive services and the workload of doctors will lessen. But before making such an arrangement, the HA should consider how the interests of various divisions can be catered for from an administrative perspective. Many specialist departments are afraid that a reduction in the number of attendances may result in a cut in resources and doctors, which will definitely create great problems. Therefore, the service target of bringing down the number of attendances should not have any resource implication.
Here, I also wish to briefly respond to the proposals put forward by a number of Members. Miss Alice MAK proposes to introduce "elderly dental care voucher". However, first of all, the existing healthcare vouchers can also be used for dental services. I once asked some elderly people, if the Government is willing to increase the value of the health care voucher by $1,000, whether they prefer to have this $1,000 dedicated for dental purpose, or to have the liberty to decide on the use of this additional sum? The majority of the elderly people hope that they can have the liberty to decide on how the money should be spent as some of them do not have any dental problem.
Mr Albert HO has put forward a very interesting proposal, suggesting that the Government should provide half-free concessions to all elderly people using public healthcare services. In fact, 97% of public healthcare services are subsidized, and elderly people are only required to pay 3% of the service fee. Although the required payment is 3%, I am aware that 50% of the users do not need to pay a penny for the public healthcare services. In other words, it is completely free of charge. I trust that the Government does not mind as this 3% fee serves a similar environmental purpose as the waste charges, aiming merely to ensure that people will not abuse the services.
Dr Priscilla LEUNG proposes to provide tax concessions for children who pay for medical insurance contributions for their parents. Unfortunately, some elderly people are too old to secure coverage from insurance companies. In other countries, tax concessions are provided to children who pay for medical expenses for their parents, which I think is a more encouraging approach.
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I have also put forward a proposal about health care vouchers earlier on. It is good to lower the eligible age to 65, but in order to avoid abuse, I proposed to subsidize 80% of the actual expense. A ceiling can actually be imposed in this regard. Perhaps I am too conservative to think that subsidy should not be provided to LI Ka-shing, I have therefore proposed to establish a lenient means test system.
That is all I need to say. Deputy President, I so submit.
MR FRANKIE YICK (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the World Health Organization (WHO) announced the Declaration of Alma-Ata in 1978, highlighting that primary healthcare is the key to achieve health for all. This Declaration has prompted the world to proactively promote primary healthcare and officially affirmed the important role played by the primary healthcare system. Many countries subsequently vigorously developed and enhanced their primary healthcare system, and acknowledged primary healthcare as an effective basis of the healthcare system.
Although primary healthcare services have been enhanced in Hong Kong for decades, it has failed to relieve the burden of hospital services. Very often, patients with minor illnesses still seek medical treatment in hospitals but not clinics.
A good primary healthcare system should be able to provide comprehensive and convenient healthcare services for people living or working nearby. Primary healthcare should provide preventive care and quality medical treatment for members of the public, thereby enhancing public health.
This is why the Liberal Party has suggested the Government to "promote medical check-up for the whole community" many years ago for "prevention is better than cure". In 2009, we suggested the Government to provide $3,000 in tax deduction to encourage the public to participate in physical check-up programmes in the private sector. At present, the five major non-infectious killer diseases in Hong Kong are cancer, heart diseases, pneumonia, stroke and chronic respiratory diseases, which can basically be detected at an early stage through physical check-up. Early detection and appropriate treatment can help lower the mortality rate and alleviate the heavy burden of hospital services. We LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4525 therefore urge the Government to seriously re-consider the proposal of providing $3,000 in tax deduction for physical check-up.
The Department of Health is currently providing a series of primary healthcare services for elderly members aged 65 or above through the various elderly health care centres in 18 districts throughout the territory, including health assessment, physical check-up and treatment services.
Although elderly people are required to pay an annual membership fee of $110 to enjoy those services after joining the health centres, the membership is very limited. As at the end of May 2013, there are about 13 700 elderly on the waiting list for joining membership and the median waiting time is 15.8 months. In some places, such as Tai Po, the median waiting time is even 27.9 months, whereas in Wan Chai, it is 27.5 months. Elderly people have to wait more than two years to become members, and this shows that the current supply falls far short of demand.
The Government should deploy additional resources and rationalize the allocation of quota according to the demographic characteristics, thereby facilitating the early detection of diseases for elderly people.
With regard to other medical services for the elderly, considerable resources have to be deployed in order to achieve vigorous improvements. For instance, the waiting time for cataract surgeries for the elderly must be shortened. Notwithstanding that a good eye-sight is essential for a person's daily living, there are over 50 000 patients on the waiting list for cataract surgery, mostly elderly people. Waiting time of two to three years is utterly unacceptable.
Dental and oral health services for the elderly are also urgently in need of additional resources. The Government should therefore make reference to the elderly healthcare voucher and introduce "elderly dental care voucher". If the Government has no intention to introduce dental care voucher, it may consider appropriately increasing the rate of healthcare voucher so that the elderly can enjoy better dental services, given that the existing elderly healthcare vouchers can basically be used to pay for dental services as well.
Deputy President, there are only 11 public dental clinics but not one in every district. In those more densely populated and ageing districts, such as Yau Tsim Mong and Sham Shui Po, there is no dental clinic at all. Many elderly 4526 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 people who have oral diseases do not receive proper treatment due to a lack of public dental services and they cannot afford private dental services. Thus, the Government should consider enhancing the provision of dental services in these areas.
For the chronically ill, apart from suffering the torment of illness, they are also burdened by the high drug and medical expenses and have to lead very difficult lives. Therefore, in addition to providing quality healthcare services to improve the patients' condition, the authorities should also put in place an appropriate subsidy system. The Liberal Party has been urging the Government to appropriately increase healthcare expenses, including injection into the Samaritan Fund (the Fund) and expansion of the types of drugs in the Drug Formulary, so as benefit more patients in need.
Starting from 1 September 2012, the Government has relaxed the financial assessment criteria of the Fund. The drug costs which patients have to contribute will not exceed 20% of their annual disposable financial resources. The reduction of this contribution ratio from 30% to 20% is generally welcomed, but we will welcome it even more if, where financially viable, the ratio can be further lowered.
In vetting the patients' applications for the Fund, the Government should consider further relaxing the application threshold on a case-by-case basis, so as to benefit more patients in need.
The Liberal Party generally supports today's original motion and all amendments. However, we consider that certain proposals are open to question. For instance, Mr Albert HO proposed to provide half-fee concessions to all elderly people using public healthcare services, and set up an "old age population reserve fund". We opine that concessions should only be provided to elderly people with financial needs, but not "all elderly people" as this would mean an "indiscriminate handout". Besides, the proposal to set up a reserve fund may result in duplication.
Both Mr HO and Dr Priscilla LEUNG have proposed to substantially increase the rate of elderly healthcare voucher by 50% and 100% from $1,000 to $1,500 and $2,000 respectively. We consider that a study should first be conducted and a decision should only be made after a consensus is reached with ample discussion.
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Regarding Dr Fernando CHEUNG's amendment, we understand that Dr CHEUNG is particularly concerned about the well-beings of persons with disabilities and has been striving to seek more benefits and services for them. This is supported by the Liberal Party. Nonetheless, I am afraid that he has hijacked Miss Alice MAK's motion by adding the term "and persons with disabilities" after "elderly people" whenever it appears. The reason is that the service needs of elderly people and persons with disabilities are not the same. Notwithstanding that, any motion aiming to improve the healthcare services of people in need in the community will basically be supported by the business sector and the Liberal Party.
Deputy President, I so submit.
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): Deputy President, first of all, I would like to thank Miss Alice MAK for moving this motion and also the seven Members for proposing the amendments.
The SAR Government has always paid close attention to the pressure and challenges brought by the ageing population to the local healthcare system and it has taken various measures to address such problems. On the one hand, we have to expand the service capacity of the overall healthcare system. In July this year, we briefed the Panel on Health Services of the Legislative Council on the plan to redevelop and develop public hospitals. We are studying the future demand for medical manpower. At the same time, we also endeavour to improve the delivery mode of healthcare services, with the development of primary healthcare being one of the important aspects.
The original motion and various amendments all focus on primary healthcare, in particular, healthcare services for the elderly. In this part of my speech, I will first introduce our current work in delivering healthcare services to the elderly. After Members have spoken, I will make a more detailed response to the views and proposals of Members in my concluding speech.
The Department of Health has set up a health centre for the elderly in each of the 18 districts over the territory, providing integrated primary healthcare services for people aged 65 or above. Under the Hospital Authority (HA), there are 42 public hospitals and organizations, 48 specialist out-patient clinics and 73 general out-patient clinics. The elderly people are one of the prime service 4528 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 target groups. To ensure that elderly people can receive timely healthcare, the general out-patient clinics have put in place a "reserved elderly appointment quota".
Besides, the HA also provides outreach services for elderly patients living in residential care homes and the community, which include community geriatric assessment, community psychiatric and psychogeriatric services, community nursing services, community psychiatric nursing service and allied health service. In 2012-2013, there were over 620 000 HA geriatric outreach attendances.
In recent years, the HA has also provided transitional integrated support services for high risk elderly patients who have been discharged from hospital but may need emergency hospital admission any time. The services include drawing up individual discharge plans, providing healthcare and rehabilitation outreach services, as well as household and personal care services in concert with social welfare organizations, so as to allow elderly people to age at home.
Apart from that, we are also trying some novel service delivery modes. The Elderly Health Care Voucher Pilot Scheme was launched on 1 January 2009 which aimed at subsidizing people aged 70 or above to use the private primary healthcare services in the community that are most suitable for their needs. At present, each eligible elderly person can receive an amount of $1,000 and this Scheme will become a regular scheme starting from next year.
Regarding dental care for the elderly, in 2011, we launched the three-year Pilot Project on Outreach Primary Dental Care Services for the Elderly in Residential Care Homes and Day Care Centres, subsidizing non-governmental organizations to set up 24 outreach teams to provide free basic dental and oral care outreach services. The Community Care Fund has also set aside $100 million to launch the "Elderly Dental Assistance Programme" to provide the needy and low-income elderly persons with free dentures and related dental services.
We note that certain services still have room for improvement but when considering the proposals, we must also take into account other factors such as the service capacity and manpower resources of our healthcare system. After listening to Members' speeches, I will make a more detailed response.
Thank you, Deputy President.
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MR ALAN LEONG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, just now we heard from the Secretary that the Government is very concerned about the pressure imposed by the ageing population on healthcare services. However, I am afraid that the Secretary is just paying lip service.
Deputy President, on 12 March 2008, I proposed a motion in this Council to urge the Government to improve the services of the Kowloon East Hospital Cluster. In my speech, I pointed out that the Kowloon East Hospital Cluster was a "three-nos" hospital cluster: it had no traumatology department to undergo thoracic surgery, no neurosurgery department to treat stroke cases and no oncology department to treat cancer cases. I had also cited an example in my speech. A female patient was sent to the United Christian Hospital (UCH) after receiving emergency treatment and diagnosis, and the attending doctor was of the view that a thoracic surgery had to be performed on her immediately. But since the UCH did not have a thoracic department, the attending doctor called the Queen Elizabeth Hospital (QEH) which is in the Kowloon Central Hospital Cluster and urged it to admit the patient to carry out thoracic surgery for her. However, the QEH did not think that there was a need to admit the patient immediately. So, the attending doctor called an ambulance to send the patient to the QEH and she was treated as a new patient. Fortunately, she survived in the end.
When I spoke at that time, I also mentioned the problems which many colleagues have told the Deputy President just now. For instance, the difficulties that elderly people have encountered in making appointments, and the fact that many elderly people, though being diagnosed to be suffering from geriatric disease, cannot receive immediate treatment. These problems have been discussed for a long period of time, and it has been more than five years since the motion was debated on 12 March 2008. Deputy President, I cannot say that no improvements have been made, but any improvements made are just like a drop in the ocean, utterly failing to catch up with the needs.
Deputy President, for instance, the patient to hospital bed ratio is seriously imbalanced. The population of Kowloon East is about 950 000 but there are only 2.11 hospital beds per 1 000 persons. However, for its neighbor Kowloon Central, there are about six hospital beds for every 1 000 people. The motion proposed by me and other amendments were all endorsed at that time. But some five to six years have passed, what changes have been made? No obvious changes have been made to the healthcare services provided in the Kowloon East 4530 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Hospital Cluster, and the resources injected by the Government have completely failed to catch up with population growth and ageing. As I have just said, about six years ago when I proposed the motion, there were 2.11 hospital beds per 1 000 persons. What about today? If we look at 2012-2013, it is 2.2 hospital beds per 1 000 persons. Deputy President, I can only describe the pace of improvements is at turtle speed. Noting that the patient to hospital bed ratio of the Hospital Authority as a whole is 2.9, the ratio of the Kowloon East Hospital Cluster is therefore lower than the general level.
Deputy President, the Planning Department projected that the population of the Kowloon East Hospital Cluster will increase from 975 800 in 2010 to 1 097 000 in 2019. The motion proposed by Miss Alice MAK today focuses on elderly people, and the Planning Department projected that the number of elderly people aged 65 or above will also increase from 132 800 in 2010 to 168 700 in 2019. While elderly people accounts for 12% of the total population in Kowloon East, data shows that it will rise to 15% in 2019. And yet, what measures have been put in place in the district that envisage an ageing population in the Kowloon East Hospital Cluster and aim to relieve the pressure brought about by the increasing service targets? We can hardly see any. Although the UCH has decided to expand, the expansion works will not be completed before 2021 and it takes eight years to provide an additional 300 hospital beds. According to the plan of the Kowloon East Hospital Cluster, the Tseung Kwan O Hospital and the Haven of Hope Hospital will altogether provide an additional 112 hospital beds. However, the rapid population growth and ageing in Kowloon East in the next few years will generate a huge service demand from elderly people and various healthcare needs. Therefore, the additional resources injected to the three hospitals have failed to meet the healthcare needs arising from the growing population (especially the aged population).
Deputy President, six years ago, I suggested that the Government should adopt the patient-oriented mentality to improve the healthcare services in Kowloon East. Six years have passed and it proves that the Government has not attached much importance to the residents of Kowloon East. Nor has it provided sufficient care. I therefore need to revisit an old issue and hope that after listening to my speech, the Secretary will do more in face of the pressure to be imposed by an aging population in Kowloon East in the next decade.
The Civic Party will support today's original motion and all amendments. I so submit.
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MR TANG KA-PIU (in Cantonese): While a colleague has just now highlighted the needs of an area, I am going to describe the need of a particular disease ― the Secretary may have guess it right ― I am going to talk about dementia. When the Secretary gives a reply later, he may use the different Chinese renditions of dementia, namely, 老年癡呆症、認知障礙症、失智症 or 腦退化症. Although the Chinese rendition has yet to be confirmed, the situation is worth our concern.
The World Health Organization (WHO) published a report entitled "Dementia: A Public Health Priority" in 2012, and the Chinese version has referred dementia as "失智症". How should we call it then? This report has identified dementia as an essential public health priority.
Today, I met some experts from Australia who have been serving dementia patients for pretty long time. They said that Australia has introduced policies to deal with this worsening disease in a targeted manner. At present, the ageing problem is more serious in Australia than in Hong Kong. In Australia, diseases considered to be of high risk or accorded top priorities are: first, heart disease; second, stroke; third, lung cancer and fourth, dementia.
Comparatively speaking, the first three diseases are certainly more troublesome. But if we take a closer look, dementia should be given the top rank. Why? In the case of Hong Kong, dementia is not only unpredictable, but also unpreventable. Knowing that even our respectable Dr Charles KAO suffers from dementia, we cannot help asking: What can we do? Which level of people is more susceptible to such a disease? What is the health condition of people who are more susceptible to dementia? While there are divergent views, the Secretary has advised on certain occasions that about 10% of dementia patients aged over 70. By 2041, three in every 10 people in Hong Kong are elderly people aged over 65. In other words, we expected that there will be some 300 000 dementia patients by then. I reckon that the problem should not be neglected.
Why should dementia patients receive priority treatment than other patients? I think there are three major reasons. Firstly, dementia patients require round-the-clock care, which has obviously imposed much heavier pressure on family members than other diseases. Employing domestic helpers as carers is not an ideal option not only because the care provided by them is not as good as that of close relatives, but also because they may not help alleviate the 4532 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 patients' conditions. To family members of dementia patients, this is an unbearably demanding task that cannot be passed on to others.
Secondly, for the residential care homes and day care centres under the welfare system, all service providers indicated that 40% to 50% of their clients are dementia patients, who are difficult to take care of.
Thirdly, as I have said, this disease is unpredictable and can we only estimate the number of patients using statistical techniques. In other words, scientifically speaking, the high-risk group has yet to be identified.
Basing on the abovementioned three reasons, former Legislative Council Member from the labour sector, Dr PAN Pey-chyou, who is a Consultant Psychiatrist, moved a motion in early 2012 to specifically discuss dementia. I think this is the first time such topic was discussed in the Legislative Council. Although the then Secretary for Food and Health was not Dr KO Wing-man, he had described in great length the plans of the Policy Bureau and the amount of funding in various respects. How well was the money spent? Has it enhanced the well-beings of the patients and carers? The answer is in the negative.
At the end of last month, Legislative Council's Joint Subcommittee on Long-term Care Policy conducted a hearing, during which I have raised only one question: Are all dementia patients, once diagnosed by hospitals, eligible for the subsidized day care services or residential care services? Members should know that the answer is in the negative. Although a patient may be diagnosed to suffer from dementia, it does not mean that he can pass the Standardised Care Need Assessment and being assessed to be "moderately impaired". This is because even though he is prone to get loss and cause disturbances, it does not mean that he is physically impaired. In that case, sorry, he will not be provided with such services.
This is reality. We are well aware that this is a serious challenge, but the hospitals and residential care homes do not communicate at all. So, let us stop saying that dementia patients have to wait one to two years for out-patient clinics, and stop asking if the existing subsidized services truly address the needs of dementia patients. As many people have said, the traditional integrated approach adopted by day care centres have failed to respond to the needs of dementia patients in terms of space, workflow design, manning ratio and relationship with the carers.
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To put it simply, can the provision of facilities and services effectively relieve the patients' condition? People have serious doubt about this. Even if the Government provides an additional funding of some $200 million for the residential care homes and day care centres, the money may not necessarily be effectively used because the service providers often spend the money on carrying out medical check-ups. Can this truly benefit the dementia patients from the welfare perspective? Can this help improve the quality of living of the patients?
We therefore hope that Secretary Dr KO Wing-man would take the lead to tackle this important issue. As I have just said, the WHO has published a report in 2012 highlighting that public expenditure on dementia, taking in account the sacrifices made by the carers, has reached 1% of the GDP nationwide. We must therefore attach importance to this matter. I hope that the Secretary will take the lead and formulate strategies, but not policies, to specifically address problems related to dementia by promoting co-operation between hospitals and residential care homes and resolving problems arising from public-private partnership. Many patients feel panic and seek medical consultation in the private sector. Although they are diagnosed to suffer from dementia, it does not mean that they are entitled to the good services provided by the Hospital Authority. Not to mention the good services provided by the Social Welfare Department ― though I am not sure if the services are genuinely good.
Regardless of whether there will be "co-operation between hospitals and residential care homes" or public-private partnership, I hope that Secretary Dr KO will take the lead to formulate a set of corresponding strategies.
MR CHEUNG KWOK-CHE (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the World Health Organization (WHO) has adopted a yardstick for determining the efficiency of the healthcare system of a country or region, which examines if 80% of health needs of a country or region can be met by primary healthcare (which is the first level). According to the data provided in "Hong Kong 2012", spending on secondary, tertiary and specialized healthcare services was $33.6 billion, which accounts for 75% of the $44.7 billion total spending. From this, we can see that primary healthcare only accounts for about 20% to 30% in Hong Kong, which does not comply with the international standard. Thus, the existing problem is not only the limited government input of resources in primary healthcare, but also a mismatch of resources, which can be said to be a waste of the limited resources.
4534 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
The backward development of Hong Kong's primary healthcare has not only failed to cope with the familiar ageing problem, but has also provided very limited services. In today's discussion, I would like to focus on three urgent problems, namely the health care vouchers, elderly healthcare centres and dental services for the elderly.
The Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme (HCVS), launched by the Government since 2009 to provide subsidies for elderly aged 70 or above to consult private doctors, has now become a recurrent support programme for the elderly, and the rate has also increased to $1,000. While this is supposed to be a good policy, it turns out that many problems have occurred. Firstly, the utilization rate of the healthcare vouchers is pretty low. The utilization rate was 29% when the HCVS was launched in 2009, and has only reached 66% four years later today. Furthermore, the number of participating medical practitioners has been low with an extremely high withdrawal rate. For instance, by the end of 2012, only 3 627 healthcare staff from various field have participated in the HCVS and the coverage was low, but 336 of them had withdrawn. According to media reports, a number of service providers listed under the eHealth System in the website of the Department of Health (DH) had already withdrawn. It has been the practice of the Government to make things very complicated, regardless of what subsidy schemes they are, because the only thing in its mind is to prevent abuse. The case is therefore the same this time for the vouchers. I therefore think the DH should first streamline the procedures and remove the obstacles impeding the participation of doctors, such as the requirement for doctors to first meet the expenses out of their own pockets and then apply for reimbursement. Only by doing can so can more private doctors be attracted to participate in the HCVS.
As the service fees of elderly health centres are pretty low, the majority of elderly people will continue with their membership. This makes it difficult for these health centres to absorb new members. As Members may be aware, within the three years between 2010 and 2012, the median waiting time for health centres located in Sha Tin's Lik Yuen Estate, Wan Chai and Yau Ma Tei is two to three years. The current problem is a lack of resource input, and the Government has increased the capacity of various elderly health centres merely through renovation, removal and expansion. Yet, they did not prove to be effective. The queue is already very long. As the population ages, mere renovation and expansion can no longer cope with the needs. A cohort study conducted by an elderly health centre showed that the services provided by the centres cannot only help prevent diseases, but also help relieve the pressure on LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4535 public hospitals. But sarcastically, the provision of primary healthcare services, which receives more government subsidies, is neither the most effective nor sustainable approach. We can therefore see that the Government has neglected the importance of primary healthcare in preventing diseases and providing early treatment, and I am very disappointed about this.
Deputy President, the third issue is dental services for the elderly. Social workers serving the elderly should be aware that teeth are very important as the greatest satisfaction in life of the elderly comes from a good meal. According to the standard laid down by the WHO, an elderly aged 80 should have 20 natural teeth. The Concern Alliance on the Interests of the Elderly had interviewed 703 elderly people in 2011, and the findings showed that only 21% meet this standard, whereas 45% of them do not have any natural teeth at all. This year, another community organization called Concern Group for Elderly Rights interviewed more than 1 400 elderly people. The findings showed that 80% have toothache problem and nearly 50% of them have difficulty in eating and daily communication as a result. Among them, 25% often feel unwell and 67% have unbalanced diet as they cannot eat certain food.
However, it is extremely expensive to consult a dentist in Hong Kong. At present, there are only 11 government dental clinics in the territory with only one on Hong Kong Island. These clinics mainly serve civil servants and have not assigned any quota for the elderly. In order to secure a consultation chip, the grass-roots elderly have to start queuing up for chips in the middle of the night. As Members may be aware, government dental clinics only provide two kinds of dental services, namely pain relief and teeth extraction. Other treatments such as scaling, dental filling and even dentures are unavailable. I request that the Government should at least provide additional quotas for government dental clinic in all districts apart from those reserved for civil servants, and reserve some quotas for the elderly in light of the growing number of elderly and grass-roots people in the district. Of course, the services provided should not be confined only to pain relief and teeth extraction.
In view of the ageing population, the demand for primary healthcare services will definitely increase. Worldwide experiences have clearly indicated that the provision of primary healthcare services is the most viable option. I urge the Government to increase healthcare resources and proactively promote the development of primary healthcare.
Deputy President, I so submit. 4536 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
MR WU CHI-WAI (in Cantonese): Deputy President, people usually have a general impression that healthcare services provided on Lantau Island and in Tin Shui Wai cannot catch up with population growth, and New Territories residents often fail to receive accident and emergency (A&E) services, which is most important. But the fact is that residents of Wong Tai Sin also face the same problem.
At present, if residents of Wong Tai Sin make ambulance calls, they will be sent to either Kwong Wah Hospital or Queen Elizabeth Hospital (QEH). If a patient is in a very serious condition, he will probably be sent to United Christian Hospital (UCH). In other words, in the absence of A&E services in Wong Tai Sin, patients will be sent to either Yau Tsim Mong or Kwun Tong. Of course, we cannot compare Wong Tai Sin with Lantau Island as both the QEH and the UCH are near to Wong Tai Sin.
However, in the report published by the Ombudsman in December 2012, it considered the A&E services in Wong Tai Sin unsatisfactory. The Ombudsman had conducted some conveyance tests for the report, and found that it took 20 minutes for ambulance to travel from Diamond Hill to the QEH, and 11 minutes to the UCH. If I was the patient, I would ask why the ambulance cannot take me to Our Lady of Maryknoll Hospital (OLMH) which involves a travel time of less than five minutes. Why are A&E services not provided in the OLMH? In extreme cases, a patient living in Chuk Yuen Village may be sent to the OLMH within three minutes using a stretcher, but it may take at least 10 to 20 minutes to take him to the A&E Department of other hospitals by ambulance.
I have asked the Hospital Authority (HA) time and again why the OLMH cannot provide elementary or basic A&E services. Assuming that a patient suffers acute heart disease or severe injury, is it possible to send him to the OLMH to undergo some simple treatments before transferring him to other well-equipped hospitals for further treatment after his condition has stabilized? In response, the HA and the Government reiterated that the establishment of an A&E Department requires substantial resources and various equipment, it is therefore impossible to provide simple A&E services in the OLMH.
I have consulted some seasoned healthcare personnel and learnt that so long as a hospital is equipped with some basic facilities (including medical scanners), it can provide basic A&E services. For the OLMH, the necessary hardware is available and the only thing lacking is manpower.
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As a matter of fact, the newly built North Lantau Hospital (NLH) also provides only a few specialties including medicine, but not surgery or paediatrics, but it still has to provide eight hours of A&E services. The operating hours will be further lengthened later. I cannot but ask why the NLH can do so but the OLMH cannot. The Government replied that the planning of the Kai Tak Hospital is now underway and new service planning will not be considered for the OLMH until mid-2014. In other words, A&E services will only be provided in Wong Tai Sin five years later at the earliest and the OLMH is not being considered.
From a medical point of view, the critical five-minute period is very important to a patient who has gone into cardiac arrest, and the "golden one hour" is imperative for patients with severe injury. Missing this golden period will significantly lower the survival rate of the patient concerned. Before the Kai Tak Hospital can provide A&E services, I wonder how many patients still have to struggle in this "golden one hour". I therefore merely request the Government to expeditiously consider providing 24-hour A&E services for Wong Tai Sin residents.
Wong Tai Sin is a poor community with serious ageing problem. Many elderly people even cannot tell if their condition is urgent after the onset of illness. Under this circumstance, it is essential to provide 24-hour A&E services in the vicinity, which is also the first step to improve primary healthcare.
Another thing that I am going to talk about is out-patient services. As far as I understand, the Government has earmarked two sites for building clinics in Yau Tong and Anderson Road. I once asked the Government why no clinics have been built on these sites, and it replied that the population size of Yau Tong meets with the requirement for building clinics as set out in the Hong Kong Planning Standards and Guidelines, other conditions must also be fulfilled. What are those conditions then?
It is pretty strange that the Government has been reluctant to develop the clinic site in Yau Tong over the years, thinking that there is no such need. But when the Government decided to convert Yau Tong's clinic site into residential site, the Food and Environment Bureau immediately required the Planning Department to identify another site for building a clinic. May I know whether or not there is a need to build a clinic? As Members may be aware, building a clinic may take years. The planning process is also time-consuming and may 4538 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 take five to seven years. Does the Government intend to consider and arrange the building of a clinic in 2020 when all the developments in Yau Tong Bay have completed and people start to move in?
There is currently a shortage of healthcare personnel, but as the Government has strived to increase the number of places in medical undergraduate programmes, the supply of healthcare personnel should be sufficient beyond 2015. Hence, it is now time for the Government to draw up hospital plans at all levels and expeditiously give a public account of how primary healthcare strategies will be implemented, so that they will not become castles in the air. The Government may, for instance, work with the HA and expeditiously complete the evaluation of the effectiveness of the Tin Shui Wai Health Centre before deciding whether the relevant supporting facilities should be provided in other communities.
To enhance primary healthcare, the Government should not only increase resources, but should also expeditiously implement the strategic overview that complies with the medical profession and meets the public aspirations. Even if the Government cannot increase healthcare personnel overnight, it should also expeditiously give a public account of its primary healthcare planning for the next five to 10 years, especially the planning for A&E services and clinics, so as to make the public believe that the Government has formulated strategies to enhance primary healthcare.
In fact, over the past few years, I have heard the Secretary saying time and again in this Council that the shortage of manpower has made it impossible for the Government to commence certain services. And yet, following an increase in the number of students in the medical institutes, the supply of healthcare personnel will increase accordingly. As the planning of hardware facilities takes long time, I eagerly hope that the Secretary will, after listening to our views, expeditiously provide the necessary A&E services in Wong Tai Sin.
Thank you, Deputy President, I so submit.
MR POON SIU-PING (in Cantonese): Deputy President, as the population of Hong Kong is ageing, society must also face various challenges brought by the ageing population, with healthcare services for elderly people being one of the major challenges. As pointed out in the Government's consultation document on LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4539 population policy, an age-friendly environment encourages active ageing by enabling elderly people of various capacities to stay healthy, active and independent. In a nutshell, having an age-friendly environment is the key to enabling elderly people in Hong Kong to live healthily. But regrettably, according to the data from the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, in 2011, the suicide rate of Hong Kong's elderly people aged 65 or above ranked third in the Asia-Pacific region, just lower than those of South Korea and China. Evidently, Hong Kong still has room for improvement in terms of creating an age-friendly society.
As a support measure for elderly healthcare services, the Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme (HCVS) is welcomed by the public from the policy perspective, yet it is questionable as to whether the HCVS is age-friendly in actual operation. According to the Planning Department's projections of population distribution, the elderly population (aged 65 or above) of Hong Kong is over 1 million in 2013 and among them, nearly 300 000 are between the age of 65 and 69. However, the eligible age for applying for HCVS is set at 70 or above. In other words, nearly 300 000 elderly people cannot be benefited. In this connection, the Government must lower the age threshold for healthcare vouchers, so that all elderly people aged 65 or above can benefit from the subsidy provided under HCVS for obtaining healthcare services.
I suggest that the voucher amount for elders aged 65 to 69 be set at $500, that is, half of the amount for elders aged 70 or above. Not only can this proposal achieve the objective of caring for the need of elders under HCVS, but also avoid creating an excessive burden on public expenditure as a result of the lower threshold.
Apart from the threshold for applying for HCVS, the utilization of healthcare vouchers is also a matter of public concern. In addition to subsidizing the medical expenditure of elders, HCVS can also help divert patients from the public healthcare system. However, the utilization of healthcare vouchers has yet to improve. In 2010, only 45% of eligible elders had used healthcare vouchers; in 2011, 57%; and last year, 66%. Notwithstanding the increasing utilization of healthcare vouchers by the elderly, I think the Government may still need to step up publicity in a targeted manner, for example, by reminding elderly patients who seek treatment from public hospitals to register for the use of healthcare vouchers, as well as promoting greater participation of 4540 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 private healthcare organizations in the HCVS, so as to offer more options or alternative healthcare services for the elderly.
Deputy President, the Secretary for Food and Health had indicated in this Council earlier that the authorities were looking into the case for providing portability of healthcare vouchers, and considering whether elderly Hong Kong residents who have moved to the Mainland could be allowed to use the vouchers to pay for healthcare services in the Mainland. Although there is no timetable for implementing this new arrangement for the time being given the Secretary's view that complicated problems are involved, I believe that this is a correct direction, and I hope the Bureau can complete the study and implement the proposal as soon as possible.
Deputy President, I so submit.
MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): In Hong Kong, as most of the grass-roots elders have neither any pension nor regular income after retirement, they either live off their own hard-earned savings, or rely on the most basic social security assistance, such as the "fruit grant" or the Old Age Living Allowance (OALA) to make ends meet. For the more fortunate elders who are still fit and healthy, they can still barely manage with such assistance, but should they fall ill, particularly if specialist treatment is required, the heavy burden of medical expenses, as well as the prolonged waiting time for treatment would become very stressful.
Elderly welfare is one of the four key tasks of the current-term Government with regard to people's livelihood. Notwithstanding the launch of OALA by the Chief Executive, the problem of inadequate primary healthcare services for elderly people has yet to be tackled. This is an issue which the Secretary must deal with squarely. In this regard, I would like to express my views on several issues.
Firstly, there are many limitations on the provision of dental treatment services, as mentioned by a number of Members just now. I always have strong feelings when I talk to elders during district visits and notice their unfilled cavities when they start talking. Of course, we know that it is natural for elders to lose their teeth, and when they have oral diseases, it is natural for them to visit a dentist. Nonetheless, how many grass-roots elders can afford the current level of fees for private dental services?
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Of course, it is not entirely impossible to obtain less expensive dental services. According to the information that I have looked up, 11 dental clinics are now operated by the Department of Health to provide out-patient services. However, there are many limitations on service provision, ranging from the quality of service to the hours of service, and many elders have been deterred from seeking treatment. The core issue is that only emergency treatment services are provided by these clinics, such as pain relief and extraction for elderly people, and no other dental care services or even fillings are provided, let alone dentures and scaling. In addition, these clinics only offer two half-day general public sessions on two separate days a week, and service is provided on a first-come-first-served basis. Hence, many elders have complained to us that they must get up in the small hours to start queuing up. This arrangement has actually served to deny treatment for the elderly.
While it is true that the Community Care Fund (CCF) has launched an assistance programme to subsidize low-income elders who are not recipients of the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) for dentures, stringent restrictions are imposed. As far as I know, only 11 000 elders have benefited from the programme, which is actually just a drop in the bucket when compared with the number of eligible elderly people for OALA. If the Government is considering the allocation of additional resources on primary healthcare services for the elderly, I think the provision of public dental services in the community is an item of great urgency.
Secondly, the waiting time for specialist out-patient (SOP) services is too long. Regarding this issue, I think Members actually understand it quite well, and I do not intend to comment further. With regard to the specialties for treating chronic diseases, which include mainly geriatric medicine, cardiology, ophthalmology, orthopaedics, diabetes, and so on, the waiting time for first consultation is generally over two years, and that for specialist surgical operations over three years. One can easily imagine what tremendous stress must have been created for an elderly patient if he has to wait two years for first consultation without even knowing what disease he is having. Although the Hospital Authority has stressed that patients with urgent conditions will not be neglected under the triage system for SOP services as patients would be classified into the urgent, semi-urgent and routine categories, many elders have actually complained to us time and again that with a prolonged waiting time of two years, they might really get seriously sick even if they were only suffering from minor ailments in the first place. Hence, the Secretary should really ponder on the questions of 4542 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 how to let elderly patients know clearly whether they are in genuine need of specialist treatment, and how to reduce the waiting time for first appointment at SOP services.
The third issue that I would like to raise is the age limit for the Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme (HCVS). Notwithstanding the various drawbacks of HCVS, the health care vouchers per se are welcomed by the elderly. Moreover, since the implementation of HCVS, the vouchers have been accepted by an increasing number of doctors. However, as reflected by the elderly, they are most concerned that only elders aged 70 or above can benefit from HCVS. As the retirement age under our existing policy is 60, and people at the age of 65 are eligible for the Senior Citizen Card, I consider that, subject to budgetary constraints, the Government should at least relax the eligible age for HCVS to 65, so that more elderly people can be benefited.
Deputy President, while the above three issues on dental services, SOP service and HCVS are of different nature, they are all closely related to the shortage of front-line healthcare manpower. Given the far-reaching impact of this problem, serious consequences may occur if the authorities fail to deal with it squarely. In fact, two recent cases have already aroused grave public concern. Firstly, the accident and emergency (A&E) department of the newly-commissioned North Lantau Hospital can only provide eight hours of service a day during its initial stage of operation, while 24-hour A&E service, as well as in-patient and general out-patient services will only be available in phases starting from 2014. Secondly, notwithstanding the great demand for obstetrics and gynaecology services in Tseung Kwan O District as nearly a quarter of its population are women of childbearing age, the Tseung Kwan O Hospital has yet to provide obstetric and neonatal intensive care services after its expansion, once again as a result of manpower shortage.
As far as I understand, the proposal of further expanding dental services has been considered by CCF. But due to the shortage of healthcare manpower, the proposal cannot be implemented immediately. Hence, the manpower problem is so serious that public interest has been affected. Various problems including the full A&E services on Lantau Island cannot be commissioned immediately, the absence of obstetrics and gynaecology services in Tseung Kwan O District, the long waiting time for specialist treatment services and the expensive healthcare services are more or less related to the shortage of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4543 healthcare manpower. It is also an indicator that the Government must face up to and deal with the manpower shortage.
On the shortage of healthcare manpower, I must also mention the shortage of doctors. According to some earlier reports, the low passing rate of overseas doctors attending local licensing examinations is caused by the relevant examination arrangements. The matter has been under discussion in the community for a long time. There are even reports claiming that according to some doctors, the examination is so difficult that even a dean of medical school may not be able to pass it. As a result, there is no way to increase the number of doctors in Hong Kong. In this regard, is the examination intended to safeguard quality or safeguard interests? While I do not want to draw any conclusion at this moment, I hope the Secretary can give us a reply as to what measures will be taken by the Bureau to deal with the shortage of healthcare manpower under such circumstances? I would suggest that a task force be established with members including scholars and other independent persons, as well as the representatives from the Government and the Hong Kong Medical Association, so that the problem can be reviewed comprehensively.
Deputy President, I so submit.
MR WONG KWOK-KIN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I speak in support of Miss Alice MAK's motion on "Stepping up the promotion of primary healthcare development and improving healthcare services for elderly people".
In the past, when we discussed how to optimize the Elderly Health Care Voucher, we mainly proposed how to increase the amount and lower the eligible age threshold. With regard to the amount of increase, the authorities have proposed to progressively increase the amount from $250 per year at the launch of the scheme to $1,000 at present. Regrettably, regarding lowering the eligible age, the Government remains unmoved and has not taken any actions. At present, the eligible age for many welfare measures is set at 65, and these measures include the $2 public transport fare concession for the elderly, "the fruit grant", the Old Age Living Allowance, the Senior Citizen Card, the elderly health centres, and so on. Yet the eligible age for the Elderly Health Care Voucher is still set at 70, which is unreasonable.
4544 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
(THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair)
At present, the general retirement age in the community remains unchanged at 60. There is actually a window period of five years if elderly people have to wait until 65 before they can enjoy the above benefits, and there will be a window period of 10 years if they have to wait until 70 before they can use healthcare vouchers. We certainly hope that elderly people would not suffer from ailments within these 10 years. But I would like to ask the Secretary if this would be realistic. I hope the Government would take this into account. We propose that the Government should at least lower the age limit for healthcare voucher to 65 as a first step, so as to bring it in line with the age limit for other elderly benefits and increase the number of beneficiaries.
President, my speech today mainly urges Secretary Dr KO Wing-man to extend the scope of application of healthcare vouchers to healthcare services in the Mainland. According to the report "Characteristics of Hong Kong Older Persons Residing in the Mainland of China" published by the Hong Kong Census and Statistics Department in September 2011, from February to March 2011, there were 115 500 Hong Kong residents aged 60 and over who took up long-term residence in the Mainland, accounting for 9% of all Hong Kong residents aged 60 and over, and 70% of these people were retired persons. Over 60% of these 110 000 elderly people who took up long-term residence in the Mainland, that is, over 70 000 people resided in the Guangdong Province.
In the past, many elderly people chose to return to the Mainland for long-term residence after retirement, mainly because of the lower cost of living in the Mainland and the fact that Hong Kong dollar had a bigger purchasing power in the Mainland. Another reason might be the better living environment in the Mainland and they could also enjoy the company of folks and friends. However, given the rapid economic development in the Mainland over the past decade or two, commodity prices have soared and the exchange rate of Hong Kong dollar to Renminbi has repeatedly hit new highs, it is no longer possible for elderly people to live out their later lives in the Mainland on a small sum of savings by living frugally.
In recent years, many Hong Kong elderly people who had resided in the Mainland have moved back to Hong Kong because they started to feel the pinch. The Mainland Consultation Services Centres of the Hong Kong Federation of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4545
Trade Unions (FTU) had interviewed some Hong Kong elderly people who resided in the Mainland to understand their actual living conditions. These Centres had also conducted a questionnaire survey on 300-odd elderly persons aged 60 or above who have resided in the Mainland to find out their difficulties and concerns while residing in the Mainland. The results indicated that 70% of the respondents considered that their greatest difficulty was the loss of support from the Hong Kong Government; secondly, more than 60% of the elderly people indicated that healthcare expenses were higher in the Mainland; and 20% to 30% of them considered that healthcare standards in the Mainland were lower.
From the above results, it can be concluded that healthcare is the greatest demand of elderly people residing in the Mainland. In fact, the FTU's Mainland Consultation Services Centres had provided assistance to a number of elderly people residing in the Mainland to move back to Hong Kong; 60% of them moved back because they were seriously ill. The costs for medical services and drugs in the Mainland are very high, and as Hong Kong elderly people residing in the Mainland are not eligible for Mainland medical benefits, they really cannot afford to fall ill there. Very often, they will not go to see a doctor for minor ailments, and will only return to Hong Kong for treatment when they are seriously ill. Even if they choose to return to Hong Kong, they will travel back and forth between the Mainland and Hong Kong. Apart from high travelling expenses, these elderly people will be fatigued by the long journey which will adversely affect their health conditions.
Regarding the demand for healthcare services of Hong Kong elderly people residing in the Mainland, we have actually discussed for a long time but the Government has not given any specific responses. Recently, some local healthcare organizations have started co-operating with Mainland healthcare organizations to provide healthcare services in the Mainland. This is a good opportunity for the Government to test whether healthcare vouchers can be used in the Mainland. With the implementation of the Guangdong Scheme, the Government needs to conduct more in-depth studies on healthcare and welfare services to find out if the "portability problem" can be resolved, so that Hong Kong elderly people can have another alternative of spending their twilight years across the boundary.
We hope the authorities would expeditiously conduct a study on the implementation timetable and submit the findings as early as possible, so as to 4546 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 bring good news to Hong Kong elderly people residing in the Mainland. This is my message to the Secretary today.
President, I so submit.
DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): Today, I would like to thank Miss Alice MAK for proposing the motion on "Stepping up the promotion of primary healthcare development and improving healthcare services for elderly people". As far as we know, situations of "difficult to get medical treatment" and "high costs of medical treatment" more often occurred in the Mainland in the past. Yet surprisingly, such problems have become increasingly common in Hong Kong nowadays. Now I am going to give some real-life cases regarding "difficult to get medical treatment" and "high costs of medical treatment".
I have received a letter seeking help, and I will pass it to Dr KO later. I will not disclose in this Chamber the name of the person seeking help. He said, in the letter, that his wife, Ms LAM, was diagnosed with lung adenocarcinoma at advanced stage in end August in the Pamela Youde Nethersole Eastern Hospital. Within six weeks, the cancer cells had spread from the lungs to the brain, and Ms LAM had to take a new target therapy drug crizotinib for treatment. Yet this drug was very expensive, costing $50,000 to $60,000 a month. His wife is now 35 years old, they have two children aged seven and four respectively. Within two months of treatment, they had spent all their savings, and are now relying on insurance payment to meet the expenses. As the payment from insurance on critical illness will soon be depleted, they are in arrears on medical expenses for three to four months.
He is very grateful that the public hospital has accorded priority to his wife to receive early treatment, in consideration that she is young and have two children; otherwise, it is uncertain how long she has to wait before she can be treated, and probably she may die before she can receive treatment. Moreover, the doctor has prescribed this new drug crizotinib to his wife, and her conditions have improved after taking the drug for more than two months. However, regrettably, they have nearly run out of money. If they cannot pay the medication fees, he will helplessly watch his young wife die, and his two innocent children will lose their mother.
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Secretary, currently there are 4 000 new cases of lung cancer in Hong Kong each year, of which 80% are non-small cell lung cancer. There are studies indicating that early intake of target therapy drugs can curb the growth of cancer cells. Prof MOK from the Department of Clinical Oncology, Faculty of Medicine of The Chinese University of Hong Kong, pointed out that for some patients who have taken crizotinib after being diagnosed with lung cancer, their brain cancer index has dropped significantly from 42 000 in August to 2 000 and can now lead a normal life. For this reason, Prof MOK hopes that the Government can expeditiously include crizotinib in the Hospital Authority Drug Formulary, as this cancer-inhibiting target therapy drug has been widely used in the United States and the European Union. Despite the fact that we have injected $10 billion into the Samaritan Fund, regrettably, the target therapy drug crizotinib has yet to be included in the Drug Formulary.
The person seeking help can only appeal to Secretary Dr KO Wing-man for help now, and his friends are now trying to raise money for him, in the hope of resolving the problem. If even Secretary Dr KO is unable to resolve the problem, all kaifongs will make an effort to help. This is a real-life case of "high costs of medical treatment" in Hong Kong.
Next I would like to talk about the situation of "difficult to get medical treatment". Since I have become a Member of the Legislative Council, I often pay visits to districts and many kaifongs would complain about the long waiting time for medical treatment. For example, I have seen some kaifongs carrying a suitcase to Kwong Wah Hospital to seek treatment. When I asked him why he carried a suitcase, he told me that as he had to wait for hours, he had to bring with him water, breakfast and lunch. In this way, he could take meals while waiting. In any case, he had to wait six or seven hours every time, and there were no other solutions.
Certainly, as the Chinese medicine services of Kwong Wah Hospital provide free treatment and medication, naturally a lot of people will queue up for the services. Yet, another kaifong told me that after he went to Caritas Medical Centre for treatment of high blood pressure, his blood pressure was even higher after consultation, the reason was that he had to wait for hours. The number of his consultation disc was 600-odd, and patient holding the disc numbered 100-odd was being treated; in other words, he had to wait several hours for his turn.
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Secretary Dr KO Wing-man, as we all know, in 2012, there were 980 000 elderly people aged 65 in Hong Kong, yet this number will be increased to 2.16 million by 2031, an increase of more than two-folds. Therefore, how to resolve the increasingly severe elderly healthcare problem is indeed an issue we need to face up to. Is the problem attributed to inadequate resources or insufficient doctors? In this connection, aside from the 10-odd demands for improving healthcare services raised by the DAB, we also hope that the Government can expeditiously (The buzzer sounded) …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr CHIANG, your speaking time is up.
DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): … include the target therapy drugs in the Drug Formulary. Thank you.
MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): As the saying goes, "Seek treatment before the illness turns serious", yet under the current situation in Hong Kong, this is not often possible to do so. We understand the Government pays little regard to primary healthcare services because the burden of healthcare expenditure faced by the Government is increasingly heavy. However, it is exactly because of this reason that we should properly address the problem and implement quality primary healthcare services, so as to rectify the significant inadequacy of the Government in respect of the overall healthcare services.
According to the data of the Government, the annual public expenditure on public healthcare amounts to $40-odd billion, of which only 12% are used for the provision of primary healthcare. In the face of population ageing and a rising expenditure on public healthcare, the public demand for primary healthcare services has been increasing but not decreasing. Under the circumstances that demand exceeds supply, the waiting time will inevitably become longer, and people seeking treatment and examination can do nothing but wait; eventually, minor ailment would turn into serious illness from early stage to advanced stage, and the patients would suffer immensely.
Originally, I intended to turn on my computer, but as it is now my turn to speak, I have no time to do so. I want to show the Government some figures and press reports on various cases of elderly people and patients having to wait LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4549 for extended period before they can get healthcare services. For instance, a male patient died after waiting a year; an old woman suffering from cataract has waited 29 months; a 73-year old woman requiring a knee surgery at Tuen Mun Hospital has to wait six years. Such cases happen almost every day. I believe that Dr KO and his colleagues who are familiar with healthcare affairs are definitely well aware of the problem. In the face of this situation, why does the Government continue to turn a blind eye and not address the problem seriously? Why does the Government not properly handle the problem related to primary healthcare that falls outside the hospital framework? Yet the Government has been dilatory in responding to the situation.
President, at present there are district elderly health centres run by the Government to provide comprehensive primary healthcare services to elderly people aged 65, including health assessment, physical examination and treatment. However, at present, there are only 38 000 places in such centres over the territory against an elderly population of up to 1.03 million people. In other words, the relevant places only accounts for 3.7% of the total number of elderly people, which reflects the severity of the problem. This is an objective fact. The Secretary may not have financial resources, but he must make an effort to find a solution. In fact, there has never been a lack of wisdom among the people, but the problem is that the Government refuses to take action.
According to the current situation, elderly people who wish to join the various health centres operated by the Government will have to wait eight months to two years on average. For this reason, people engaging in district work have to assume a new role, that is, measuring blood pressure and conducting diabetes check-ups for the elderly. Many people in the community are now providing these services, but the Government is still reluctant to build up a network for all these people and refuses to tackle the problem. Therefore, under such circumstances, I think the Secretary must be open-minded in the first place, and consider how to resolve the problems currently faced by the elderly, the chronically ill, as well as persons with disabilities. Such problems should be addressed under the public healthcare system, and the Government should also consider how to further strengthen primary healthcare services.
Having said that, we have come close to the core of the issue. One major area of concern in relation to primary healthcare is ageing in place, which should be complemented by human resources in the community. As Dr CHIANG Lai-wan has said just now, if the Government is unable to allocate funds, we will 4550 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 try to raise money from the public. The community has been making efforts all along, yet it does not mean the Government can remain indifferent in the process. For example, if an elderly person living in the community requires care and attention, his carer ― those who have been carers would understand ― cannot go out to work; in that case, can the Government provide subsidies to the carers? Or, in another case, an elderly person who lives alone in the community requires care and attention, can the authorities mobilize manpower in the community, including hiring home-based carers to accompany the elderly to travel to and fro the hospital for treatment? Such tasks can be carried out by the Government. Disregarding the amount of financial resources, there will be solutions. The key is that these solutions must help resolving the problem.
I have no idea what the Government has done. Now that the community has taken action, the Government remains stagnant. I had invited Dr York CHOW to visit the districts in the past. Last year, a group of elderly people who live alone invited Dr KO to listen to their opinions on how they hoped the Government could improve the major inadequacies currently prevailing in the overall healthcare system. If the community primary healthcare is properly implemented, ageing in place as advocated by the Government can then be operated smoothly, and the present dilatory state will no longer exist. I am furious when I speak about this subject, mainly because there are many elderly people in my constituency. I am also aware that the Government is now considering assisting elderly people via the Community Care Fund. While I support this idea, I hope the Government will also take care of persons with disabilities and other chronic patients in the community as well, and consider granting subsidies to carers.
President, there are many such stories in my constituency. If the Government is willing to build up a network in this regard, some serious issues prevailing in the community today can be completely resolved. A 90-year-old elderly person was admitted to hospital due to high fever, and when he was discharged from hospital, he was being looked after by another elderly person aged over 80. Then one morning he fell off several times at home and eventually died. When I learnt about this incident, I was very angry and asked the ambulance staff why this had happened. They replied that they could only drive him home in an ambulance, and what happened after he returned home was none of their concern. I cannot help but ask, if an elderly person lives alone or if his carer is also an elderly person, what should be done to help them?
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Can the Government consider asking hospital social workers to play a role? These problems should be tackled by a "network". People in the community certainly wish to help these elderly people, but they should also be reassured and granted carer subsidies. Family members of the elderly and the community are both in need of these measures. Very often, some young people in the districts would tell me in distress that their mothers are sick, and they have no idea what they should do, therefore I have to send my colleagues to see how we can help. Such incidents keep happening in the community and we have to offer mutual help and support. Yet, it is not adequate just to rely on the community over extended period to provide such kind of simple care; the Government must provide a safety network.
In this connection, I wish to point out that Dr CHOW, who treated my cancer, is very kind. He has provided body checks for 1 000 patients, yet this is not a long-term solution. The Government should build up more networks, so as to link up resources provided by enthusiastic persons to work in co-operation. In this connection, speaking of ageing in place is easy, but how to achieve this objective is rather difficult. In face of the long waiting time for patients with chronic diseases, in what way can the community play a greater role? I am certain there are many kind doctors who are willing to help, but the issue in question is whether the Government is willing to organize them.
I so submit, President.
DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): President, Hong Kong is a society in which people have long lifespan; yet birth, age, illness and death are inevitable stages in life that both you and I cannot avoid.
President, according to the data of the Census and Statistics Department, in 2012, the average life expectancy in Hong Kong was 80.7 for men, and 86.4 for women. At present, one in every seven people in Hong Kong is an elderly person aged above 65; the figures also indicate that by 2041, one in every three people in Hong Kong will be an elderly person aged above 65. These figures reflect that population ageing in Hong Kong has become an issue of great urgency, and the Government should plan ahead by formulating specific measures to address the critical issue of population ageing.
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In fact, when one gets old, his bodily functions will naturally decline and deteriorate. If the immunity system becomes weak, one will naturally fall ill. With rapid population ageing, the elderly population will increase and various kinds of chronic illnesses will become more prevalent. President, according to a survey conducted by The Chinese University of Hong Kong between 2009 and 2012, about 80% of elderly people suffer from three to four chronic illnesses, including high blood pressure, cardiovascular disease and diabetes, and so on. Furthermore, the worsening weather conditions in Hong Kong and the increasingly overcrowded living environment would also affect the mental and physical well-being of elderly people. In this connection, the provision of appropriate healthcare and long-term care services for elderly people is indispensable for the rapidly growing elderly population.
As healthcare policy is closely related to policies on population, environment protection and housing, any unsatisfactory performance of the Government in one policy area will bring sufferings and hardships to elderly people. President, I share the view that the healthcare standard in Hong Kong is second to none in Asia, yet owing to the housing or environmental problems I mentioned just now, as well as the healthcare problems, in particularly the serious wealth disparity problem in Hong Kong, many lower-middle class elderly people live in dire straits, and many of them are chronically ill. That is why quality healthcare services for elderly people are of great importance.
President, Chinese medicine emphasizes on reinforcement and recuperation of energy, with focus on nursing one's health and strengthening the immune system, which is particularly effective for treatment of chronic illnesses of the elderly. The Government should therefore proactively develop Chinese medicine, integrate the use of Chinese and Western medicines, and promote traditional Chinese medicine in public hospitals. As technology advances incessantly, viruses also mutate rapidly. As a matter of fact, from SARS to the recent H7N9 influenza, we can see viruses mutate constantly and have become increasingly malicious. Integrating the use of Chinese and Western medicine in treatment can be regarded as a new-generation treatment to combat these terrible diseases or viruses with ever-changing mutations. However, I find that the Government's support for the development of Chinese medicine is far from adequate, making it hard for Chinese medicine in Hong Kong to make progress in its development. As a result, many patients cannot be benefited, in particular elderly patients suffering from chronic illness who need reinforcement and recuperation of energy.
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President, currently there are 42 public hospitals and healthcare institutions, 48 specialist out-patient clinics and 73 general out-patient clinics under the management of the Hospital Authority, yet there are only 17 Chinese medicine clinics throughout the territory, which can hardly meet the demands of the community. The Government definitely has to expand the out-patient services of Chinese medicine. President, earlier, the Hong Kong Baptist University (the HKBU) had strived to construct student hostels and a Chinese medicine teaching hospital on the site of the former campus of the Lee Wai Lee Technical Institute in Kowloon Tong, in the hope of training more talents in Chinese medicine to serve the community and bring benefits to all Hong Kong people. Regrettably, to identify land for housing development, the Government "blindly scrambled for land" and proposed to construct luxurious housing units on that site. The education and the medical sectors were greatly disappointed at this perverse act. In fact, the Town Planning Board had earlier received approximately 25 000 submissions, most of which opposed the changes of land use for the aforesaid site. I hereby hope that the Government can withdraw the plan before it is too late and show respect for public opinion by allocating the site for the construction of a Chinese medicine teaching hospital.
In this connection, President, I would also like to take this opportunity to ask Secretary Dr KO Wing-man whether he supports the allocation of the aforesaid site to the HKBU or other universities for constructing a Chinese medicine teaching hospital. If not, can other sites in Hong Kong be allocated for developing a Chinese medicine teaching hospital? It is my wish that the Secretary could strive to construct a Chinese medicine teaching hospital or an integrated Chinese and Western medicine hospital for Hong Kong people during his tenure or when he is reappointed in the future. I hope the Secretary can squarely and directly respond to my aspirations or enquiries in this regard when he later replies to the Members' speeches.
President, just now several Members have unanimously asked the Government to expand the coverage of the Drug Formulary in their speeches. At present, approximately 1 300 drugs are included in the Drug Formulary, and I certainly concur with the views of other Members in recommending the Government to further expand the coverage of the Drug Formulary to include more drugs, so as to alleviate the burden on grass-roots patients. In fact, it was reported earlier that some patients resorted to purchasing Indian-made generic drugs to treat cancer since they could not afford the expensive target therapy drugs, and certainly the efficacy of these drugs is questionable. I hope that the 4554 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Government will not refuse to help those who are dying, and turn a blind eye on less well-off patients having to purchase poor quality drugs. In this connection, I hope the Government can attach importance to the demand for expanding the Drug Formulary.
I so submit, President.
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): President, I speak in support of the motion on improving healthcare services for elderly people moved by Miss Alice MAK.
Today's debate topic reminds me of a Hong Kong-produced film A Simple Life that I previously watched. In the movie, the main character Ah Tao has difficulty getting about in her twilight years due to a stroke. Having neither relatives nor friends, she has to reside in an elderly care home where the environment is rather poor. She has a very pointed line that has deeply impressed me. She says, "There is a time for birth, a time for death, a time for laughter, a time for tears, a time for balloon angioplasty, a time for removing gallstones, a time for fooling around and a time to kick the bucket." President, it is true that, for many elderly people, suffering from various diseases in their twilight years distresses them the most. Their greatest concern is not death since they all understand the truth of "a time for birth and a time for death"; what they are most concerned about is that if they become seriously ill and require long-term treatment, it will impose heavy financial burden on them or even on their families.
President, according to the Hong Kong Poverty Situation Report 2012 published by the Government in September, there were 1.02 million people living under the poverty line in Hong Kong, of whom as many as 300 000 were elderly people. In other words, one in every three elderly people was living under the poverty line. In the Poverty Data Analysis 2011 published by the Hong Kong Council of Social Service (HKCSS) last year, it was stated that in 2011, there were 288 000 elderly people living in poverty in Hong Kong, and the poverty rate of elderly people living alone or living with another elder was as high as 53.9%. That is to say, one in every two elderly people living alone or living with another elder was in poverty. All these figures indicate that it is imperative to improve the healthcare services for the grass-roots elderly people as many of them refuse to see a doctor, rarely see a doctor or postpone seeing a doctor due to financial considerations, thus leading to a delay in seeking treatment for their illness. In LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4555 this connection, the Neo Democrats concurs that the Government should lower the eligible age for elderly healthcare voucher to 65, as well as increase the voucher amount. The Government should also abolish the $3,000 accumulated limit of the unspent part of the voucher, so as to allow the elderly greater flexibility in using the healthcare services.
President, the Neo Democrats also concurs that the Government should introduce the elderly dental care voucher in order to meet the dental service demand of grass-roots elderly people. According to the statistics collated in a questionnaire survey conducted by the HKCSS on grass-roots elderly people's demand for dental care service in 2011, among the grass-roots elderly people interviewed, nearly 60% would not see a dentist when they had dental problems, and more than half of them indicated they did not expeditiously seek dental treatment for fear of high dental fees, and 10% said that they did not know how to look for a dentist. President, currently there are only 11 dental out-patient clinics in Hong Kong, which is seriously insufficient in terms of district coverage. There are no such clinics in densely populated districts like Sha Tin and Tseung Kwan O. Therefore, in addition to establishing one public dental clinic in each of all 18 districts over Hong Kong, the Government should also consider setting up small dental clinics in the existing elderly health centres to attend to elderly people living in remote areas, such as Tung Chung and Tseung Kwan O, so as to meet the growing demand for elderly dental services.
President, aside from insufficient dental out-patient clinics, the excessively long waiting time for specialist out-patient services has been another major problem faced by elderly people. For treatments for psychogeriatrics, ophthalmology and cataracts, the average waiting time can be one or two years. Such a long waiting time will affect the conditions of patients. For example, in order to effectively control their conditions, dementia patients need early drug and non-drug treatments; delay in treating cataracts may even lead to glaucoma which greatly increases the difficulty in surgical extraction.
President, at present, the waiting time for cataract surgeries in the Hong Kong West Cluster is only four months, but it is more than 20 months in the Kowloon West Cluster and the New Territories West Cluster. Although elderly people can be transferred to other clusters to wait for the surgery, travelling a long way to the hospital for the surgery is far from desirable for the elderly people and their carers. In this connection, the Neo Democrats deems it necessary for the Government to expeditiously allocate more resources to shorten 4556 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 the waiting time for specialist out-patient services, and set a performance pledge on waiting time, so as to avoid the grave inequity in the allocation of resources.
President, no matter how touching and realistic the story of A Simple Life is, it is purely a film, yet in reality, more elderly people in Hong Kong are living an even harder life than Ah Tao, and there may not be such an affectionate carer as the one in the film who offers comfort at all times. In this connection, it is even more important for the Government to play a leading role in this respect, allocating more resources to provide grass-roots elderly people with better healthcare services and endeavouring to improve the life of Hong Kong elderly people in their twilight years. Therefore, I will vote in favour of Miss Alice MAK's original motion and the amendments moved by other Members, and urge the Government to expeditiously introduce a universal retirement protection scheme to tackle the problem of population ageing in Hong Kong at root, so that elderly people need not worry about having no money to seek medical treatment.
I so submit, President.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): President, I speak in support of Miss Alice MAK's original motion. Due to time constraints, I will only focus my speech on the proposal in item (2) of Miss MAK's original motion, which is about dental care for the elderly.
President, on 19 November 2008, the Legislative Council passed a motion entitled "Comprehensively improving the public dental out-patient services and the dental care scheme" moved by me, which focused on dental services. That motion contained the following five proposals:
"(a) providing public dental out-patient services to members of the public at the medical and health organizations run by the Government in various districts;
(b) public dental out-patient services must include comprehensive dental treatment, such as dental examination, scaling, extraction, filling, endodontic treatment and crowning, etc;
(c) setting up a dental care scheme for secondary school students;
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(d) setting up a dental care scheme for the poor elderly aged over 60; and
(e) drawing up an implementation timetable and a detailed plan to comprehensively improve the public dental out-patient services and the dental care scheme."
That motion was passed unanimously by Members on 19 November 2008, but what was the Government's response in the five years following the passage of that motion? The progress made in the past is really quite disappointing, as it has been very slow. Firstly, the Government launched the Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme in 2009, and has gradually increased the annual voucher amount from $250 to $1,000, which is allowed to be accumulated up to three years. Of course, the vouchers can also be used for dental treatment and care. What is more, in recent years, the Government has allocated resources to provide dental examination as well as dental care and healthcare services at some residential care homes for those elderly people who have difficulty getting about. The Government's response was limited to these two measures, with no progress made in setting up a dental care scheme for secondary school students.
Secretary Dr KO, at that time, you had yet to join the accountability team. In recounting the relevant situation and history just now, my purpose is to tell the Secretary that the Government's progress in responding to the demand for dental services for all the elderly in Hong Kong has been very slow, and has lagged behind their needs. While the Government has set up government dental clinics, the services are still limited to, first, pain relief for elderly people suffering from toothache and, second, tooth extraction. These are the only two services offered, but the progress has still been very slow. The Government was late in launching the services, and the number of service quota has been small.
According to the information available to us, the service quota of the 11 government dental clinics is only 42 to 84 per half-day, or 870 per week. As I said just now, the Government's progress in responding to that motion moved by me and passed by this Council has been very slow. Are Members greatly disappointed?
President, regarding the current motion moved by Miss MAK, I would like to say that the elderly are very miserable. In their old age, they just want to eat well, but given their unresolved dental problems, they cannot eat well. This is 4558 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 the problem facing the elderly in Hong Kong. Due to inadequate support from the Government, the toothless elderly can neither eat with ease nor eat well, and as a consequence, a chain reaction of other health problems will naturally ensue ― I believe Secretary Dr KO will agree with me. This being the case, should the Government step up its efforts in this regard?
The Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions proposes that the Government should introduce "elderly dental care voucher", with an annual amount of $2,000 which can be accumulated. We hope that the Government can actively consider this as a starting point. Only through this arrangement can we ensure the health of the elderly and, at least, enable them to improve their daily diet. This is good for their health in the long run.
I hereby once again call on Secretary Dr KO to examine the existing dental care scheme. The Government should encourage the public to develop good dental care habits from a young age, but the existing dental care scheme is only implemented in primary schools and does not cover secondary school students. This situation has remained unchanged for years. While the Secretary of the last-term Government indicated time and again that public healthcare and hygiene education was adequate, it was in fact inadequate. I hope that the Secretary can review afresh this situation and see if the Government can take a more active step forward in responding to public aspirations.
As regards the five proposals contained in the motion moved by me in 2008 as I recounted just now, I hope that Secretary Dr KO can study them in detail and give me a response in his reply later on.
Thank you, President.
IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, since primary healthcare is the first contact point between the healthcare system and patients, if the services offered are adequate and fine, patients can receive assistance expeditiously. But if primary healthcare is poor, patients are likely to end up in hospital.
Let me cite an example. If there are not enough clinics providing evening out-patient services, or people cannot make appointments with the Government's general out-patient clinics over the phone despite repeated calls, those who fall ill will have no choice but to seek treatment at the accident and emergency (A&E) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4559 departments of public hospitals. No wonder there have been complaints from members of the public that they had to wait 15 hours for medical attention at the A&E departments during the recent influenza peak season. This situation has not only agitated patients and caused healthcare personnel to overwork, but has also wasted valuable healthcare resources.
Hospitals are responsible for secondary and tertiary healthcare, but many members of the public go to hospitals just for treating colds or flu. This situation is unsatisfactory. To change this situation, we have to enhance public primary healthcare services on the one hand, such as increasing the number of general out-patient clinics of the Hospital Authority, extending service hours and improving the appointment system.
On the other hand, private clinics are also very important. The scale of private clinics may be small, but they are advantageously abundant as they are present in the shopping arcades of many housing estates. Many people falling ill will seek consultation at private clinics first. The development of primary healthcare hinges on such public-private partnership as well.
President, while it is necessary to upgrade healthcare facilities and service systems, the most important issue is undoubtedly manpower. As far as medical practitioners are concerned, there are only some 13 000 doctors in Hong Kong, representing a doctor-to-population ratio of 1:552. After the deduction of some 5 300 doctors with specialist qualifications, there are only some 8 000 general practitioners in Hong Kong at the most, and this is apparently insufficient to meet the primary healthcare needs of 7.8 million people. So even if people seek consultation at private clinics, they may also need to wait a few hours.
With an ageing population, the shortage of doctors will only become increasingly serious. In the light of this, we should strengthen the training of doctors. But if there are really not enough doctors, can we relax the population policy? At present, overseas doctors intending to practise in Hong Kong must sit the Licensing Examination commonly known as "the great purge", in which they are tested on the contents of the five-year medical curriculum in one go. This is really rather harsh.
To protect the safety of patients and ensure quality, an examination is truly necessary. But then, is it reasonable when the passing rate of the examination is only 10 or 20%? This issue warrants a review. It stands to reason that the 4560 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 levels of medical students in the United States and the United Kingdom are not that low, so the Medical Council of Hong Kong can actually consider dividing the examination into a few sittings, or adjusting the contents of the examination to match clinical needs more closely, so that overseas doctors with good medical skills can also have the chance to practise in Hong Kong.
President, many middle-class families in Hong Kong do want to shoulder their own responsibility for their own medical needs, and that is why they have taken out medical insurance to cover their visits to private doctors when they are ill. The Government always wants to foster public-private partnership so that patients with medical insurance will be more willing to consult private doctors, thereby relieving the burden on the public healthcare system. Therefore, the Government should provide them with tax concessions on medical insurance.
Moreover, with the advent of home-use medical devices, the prices of blood pressure monitors, blood glucose meters and suchlike instruments are not very high, and they are easy to operate. With the help of these medical devices, people can easily understand their body condition. The Government can consider encouraging district organizations, such as owners' corporations, offices of District Council members, and so on, to buy a couple of such instruments for people to use, and District Council members can also help by introducing health information, arranging for residents to receive influenza vaccination or assisting in measuring people's blood pressure. All these can alleviate people's burden in respect of some of their primary healthcare needs.
Lastly, President, I would like to talk about one thing. There have been some ungrounded criticisms that the industrial and commercial sectors are only concerned about the economy without regard for people's livelihood and do not understand their plight. As an industrial and commercial professional, I find such criticisms ridiculous. Insofar as healthcare is concerned, the industrial and commercial sectors have been, over the years, urging the Government to provide tax concessions on medical insurance, requesting an increase in resources and drugs under the Hospital Authority Drug Formulary, recommending the Government to raise the healthcare voucher subsidy amount and streamline the procedures for using healthcare vouchers, as well as requesting the Government to consider enhancing dental care services, in addition to many other proposals that are directly beneficial to the public. All these can help the public.
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President, there are many areas of work which cannot be accomplished by the Government alone. The industrial and commercial sectors of Hong Kong have been contributing both money and effort. Some friends have made use of their management experience to help the Government improve the efficiency of related programmes, and some friends have made use of their personal connections to liaise with different service providers. We have made substantive contributions to society and people's livelihood.
President, I so submit.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): President, I speak immediately after Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok every time. What a coincidence! But then, having listened to his speech, I think he really does not understand the whole issue.
The rich in Hong Kong are certainly not so black-hearted as to ignore the elderly. I often cite SHAKESPEARE's story about "a pound of flesh". If you want to do a good job which, however, necessitates changing the tax regime or spending a lot of public money, they will raise an objection. This is the crux of the issue. So I am not guessing whether the rich are kind-hearted; rather, I am concerned that they, as economic groups in society, are advocating that low tax rates must be maintained no matter what reform is being proposed, and this is getting us nowhere.
According to Mr WONG Kwok-hing, he moved a motion with six demands on dental services five years ago, but the Government still pays no heed after five years. He should hurl objects at the Secretary. If I were in his shoes, I would definitely hurl objects. I am really sorry, but I would hurl "the tooth" at KO Wing-man. Why? The past five years is a long period of time, which has seen the reign of the former Government and the governance of "the Wolf", LEUNG Chun-ying.
President, as you may remember, when I talked about dental services in the filibuster, everyone told me not to do so, for they were irrelevant to the subject. Still, despite being neither learned nor articulate, I forced myself to keep talking about the inadequacies of dental services and the misery of the elderly. But the President cut off the filibuster, and I could do nothing about it. As it turns out, when we strive for something, all we can do is to move a motion in this Chamber every year or once every few years, and that is it. Nonetheless, it is better to 4562 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 move such motions than not to move them. But just imagine how pathetic it is, when elderly people who need dental care and residential care home services are denied such services, and those who are supposed to receive medical treatment are denied such treatment as if they do not need it, just because the Government wants to reduce its deficiencies in terms of figures.
President, you are really "惡死"4. My mother used to say that I was really "惡死". Initially, I wondered why people would describe others as "惡 死 ". Later, I realized that the original meaning of this term was "ageing without dying", or "being unable to die". In this sense, "惡死" can mean "dying a difficult death". Just imagine, when the Government is so bad that even the curse of "dying a difficult death" uttered by some shrews and termagants falls short of reflecting its malevolence, it is actually making people "ferocious", right?
If people have problems with their noses, they are in big trouble; if there are problems with their eyes, they are in big trouble; if there are problems with their teeth, they are in big trouble; if there are problems with their ears, they are in big trouble. If the elderly have any problem with any of the above organs, they will be on tenterhooks. This also reminds me of my being reproached for suggesting that all elderly people should be entitled to Old Age Living Allowance and universal retirement protection without being subject to a means test. There were arguments that "Some elderly people are well off, so why is it necessary to give them allowance?" Buddy, when an elderly person has one to two hundred thousand dollars in hand, even if he does not save it up as his funeral fund, he needs to use the money to keep him alive. Thanks to you people, a columbarium niche costs as much as several hundred thousand dollars. If the elderly have no money, who is going to pity them? If they only have $3,000 or $1,000-odd, who is going to pity them? What if they are ill? Do they still have to queue up for medical attention when they are ill? Of the 300 000 elderly people in Hong Kong, one third live in poverty, while those financially better off are on tenterhooks with their money. Should they spend the money and gamble on the hope that they will not be ill and will have columbarium niches in the end, or should they give up on getting allowance?
4 "惡死" means "ferocious" in colloquial Cantonese, or separately, the character "惡 " means "not easy to deal with" and "死 " means "death", the combined meaning is "dying a difficult death". LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4563
What Government is it? It has an enormous reserve but plays tricks on the elderly every day. They are really scared to think about their lives. Should they undergo cataract surgery, which would cost them their funeral savings or survival money? Yet, the Government is stingy with them, saying that they have no reason to rely on the public purse for living as they have as much as $200,000. Buddy, if you had been a good government with sympathy for those elderly people who have brought up their children whom you are exploiting, and for those women who have been physically weakened by their work to such an extent that they may soon become beggars, you would not have been so mean as to pinch pennies with them. They have to pay for your services, right? How much does it cost to crown a tooth, KO Wing-man? I have had a tooth crowned before, and fortunately I could afford it since I was entitled to medical allowance as a Legislative Council Member.
This topic under discussion calls to mind the filibuster mounted last year. So, I have decided that I will definitely filibuster this year, and I will perhaps filibuster on a few fronts. I recall that when I talked about dental services here on that day, I was rebuked and accused for digression. Is it not true that nothing about people's livelihood is trivial?
President, the issue in question is healthcare for the elderly. The elderly around me ― as I have been campaigning for universal retirement protection ― passed away one after another; they died unnatural deaths. They really died unnatural deaths, because they could have been saved, but as their minor ailments grew into serious illnesses and after being further "frightened", they died. So, President, in my view, Mr LU Xun was right in saying, "Saddened by his misfortune, Angered by his not putting up resistance." Every Member is now dramatically empathetic. If we empathize with them, we should do something. Now that the elderly can do nothing, they can only count on us.
Therefore, President, as you cut off the filibuster, you really have to watch out. Have you heard of the 19th level of hell? Is this intimidation? I tell you what, if this situation goes on, you may be made a target of all kinds of bombs, including but not limited to a petrol bomb. If the Government continues to act in this way, it may trigger an atomic bomb, "a spiritual atomic bomb" ― the President must know what "a spiritual atomic bomb" is ― people armed with MAO Zedong Thought are "a spiritual atomic bomb".
4564 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
President, it would just be a waste of time to throw petrol bombs at this Government, right? When people were talking about revolution, which would certainly involve the use of petrol bombs, what did it say? It was scared at the mention of throwing petrol bombs when people were talking about revolution. Is it afraid of revolution?
President, in short, this Government is deadly useless. It deserves to "die a difficult death", and die slowly. Likewise, LEUNG Chun-ying deserves to die slowly, and "die a difficult death".
MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): President, the subject of our debate today is "Stepping up the promotion of primary healthcare development and improving healthcare services for elderly people".
When it comes to improving healthcare services for elderly people, this is indeed a very important issue. As we all know, the Government also admits that it is imperative to face up to the problem of population ageing, and healthcare services are even of major significance to an ageing population. If such services are to be improved, I hope Dr KO Wing-man can deal with one matter as soon as possible, and this matter will not be too difficult to deal with, so I hope he can sort it out properly. What is it? It is the telephone appointment service. A lot of elderly people have told me that they hope the Government can modify the telephone appointment service, as they really cannot make appointments over the phone. They do not know how to use the pre-recorded voice system, nor do they know when to press which buttons. The elderly do not know how to go through these procedures, so they simply cannot make appointments. What happens if they fail to make appointments? They refrain from seeking medical attention. This may have serious consequences, as minor ailments may develop into serious illnesses, and serious illnesses may be fatal.
How would the elderly deal with this situation most of the time? They either ask their relatives and friends to make appointments for them, or go to ward offices for help. I believe that many offices of District Council members have effectively become telephone service centres where the staff keep making such appointments by phone for the elderly. In fact, it is very easy to deal with this matter, so why has the Government not dealt with it? The elderly are not asking for too much. It does not matter if the Government retains the telephone appointment service, but can it stop using the pre-recorded voice system? Can it LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4565 replace that with a telephone system to be answered by live operators handling their appointments, so that they will not be so pathetic?
Speaking of the appointment service, I believe that not only elderly persons counter problems using it, but the grassroots also find it problematic. Many workers have told me that as it turns out, they need to foretell when they will get sick, or else they will not be able to receive medical attention. How come? Normally, if people are sick today, they will certainly telephone to make medical appointments today. However, they will never be arranged to receive medical attention on the same day, and it is possible that they will only receive medical attention two or three days later. In other words, they need to foretell when they will get sick, otherwise after two or three days, either their illnesses may have developed into more serious problems, or they may have already recovered and thus no longer need medical attention. There is of course no problem if they have recovered. Their greatest fear is that their illnesses may get worse, in which case they do not know what to do. If primary healthcare services are to be improved, apart from modifying the telephone appointment service, the Government also needs to increase consultation quotas. If there is no increase in the quotas, workers or the grassroots will inevitably turn to accident and emergency (A&E) services, but as the Government is now saying that the public should not abuse A&E services, what can they do? They do not want to abuse the services either, but if they fail to receive out-patient services despite having waited, they do not know what to do. It is like they have come to a cul-de-sac, in which they can only turn round and round. So, in this regard, the authorities should put in more resources to address the problem.
Now, speaking of out-patient services, of course I also need to talk about problems concerning hospitals. In fact, hospital services are truly inadequate. As I mentioned just now, A&E services are often badly overstretched. Not only patients have to wait for a long time, but hospital beds or various facilities are also insufficient. Talking of hospitals, I hope the Government can take a look at the situation of Peng Chau Hospital. I have talked about Peng Chau Hospital on many occasions ― actually it is not a hospital, but just a clinic ― and I really hope the Government can do something to help. Why do I say so? If you have been to Peng Chau Clinic, you should know that it is situated on a hillside. Residents of Peng Chau can only go to that clinic for medical consultation when they are ill, but it is really difficult for the elderly to walk up that slope. If they do not want to walk up there themselves, they have no choice but to call a fire engine or an ambulance. Yet, riding in such vehicles is a very terrifying 4566 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 experience, because they are just small vehicles and when they negotiate the steep road, people who ride in them may find it even more frightening. Can the Government install a lift for the residents as soon as possible? Alternatively, can it relocate the clinic to the ground level so that the residents can be spared the strenuous uphill walk? In the event that the clinic is relocated to the ground level, given that it has been many years since the clinic was established and its equipment is primitive, can the authorities improve the facilities and services? In this connection, can the authorities do a better job?
Apart from this, I think there is yet another issue that the Secretary should pay attention to. The incidence of cancer in Hong Kong is quite alarming. It is a big menace to Hong Kong people. In particular, intestinal cancer is a major disease. I remember that a lady in her forties or fifties once told me that she had been asking the hospital to give her a colonoscopy, because her mother had died of intestinal cancer and it was highly probable that she would have cancer too. That was why she asked the doctor to give her a colonoscopy when she felt unwell, but the doctor told her that no arrangement would be made for her to undergo a colonoscopy unless she had special needs, as the examination was very expensive and it was not for everyone. She kept asking if she could be put on the waiting list. After a long wait, she really felt very sick and she consulted the doctor again. The doctor examined her by hand, and told her that she had piles. She thought it was true and took medicine for piles for two weeks. Unexpectedly, she still felt very unwell and bled profusely after two weeks. So she paid another visit to the doctor. This time, the doctor finally gave her a colonoscopy, and the result actually indicated that she turned out to be suffering from stage-four intestinal cancer, which was incurable. Is this a matter of resources? If she had been allowed to undergo a colonoscopy and diagnosed as having intestinal cancer earlier, she could have been treated earlier to improve her condition. However, our resources in this area are insufficient, while such diseases are faced by many grass-roots people and the elderly.
In addition, just now some Honourable colleagues mentioned cataracts and suchlike problems. I have been to the eye hospital to wait for my annual check-up, only to see a huge, formidable crowd of people. Can the Government provide more services of this kind? An increase in services certainly requires expenditure, but if we only care about our purse without providing services and ignore the patients' problems, even more resources will be required when their conditions get worse. I therefore hope that Members will not be so short-sighted when looking at the issue. Most importantly, I hope that the Government can LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4567 really take the long view and provide more preventive healthcare services, so that the expenditure finally incurred will not be so enormous. I hope that at this stage, the Secretary (The buzzer sounded) … can stop considering the voluntary Health Protection Scheme, as it will not be very successful. It would be better to think about, in the long term, how to address …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, your speaking time is up.
MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): … the healthcare needs of our grassroots.
DR KENNETH CHAN (in Cantonese): President, since a comrade of my party, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, has highlighted women health in point (7) of his amendment, I wish to expound on this point.
With the female population exceedingly one half of the total population of Hong Kong, safeguarding women health and preventing female diseases should be an important part of our primary healthcare services. However, according to the objective data, the number of public service points and the coverage of the network providing healthcare services especially for women in Hong Kong are totally disproportionate to the female population. The simple and logical conclusion is that the Government should allocate additional resources to enhance the protection of women health.
About a year ago, at the Council meeting held on 12 December 2012, a Member requested for information in this respect in Question Number 10. Therefore, while I reiterate the need to enhance healthcare services for women, I also hold Secretary Dr KO Wing-man, who is sitting opposite me, liable for failure to do so.
About a year ago, a colleague asked a written question on this issue and from the reply of the Government, we learnt that healthcare services for women in Hong Kong were truly insufficient. Now that one year has passed, let us see what Secretary Dr KO Wing-man will tell us later on.
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Here, I wish to point out a number of problems concerning women health. The first is insufficient service points. Up till now, there are only three woman health centres in Hong Kong providing healthcare services especially for women, and 10 maternal and child health centres providing healthcare services for women for three to six hours a week. Both the service points and duration of service are extremely insufficient. We certainly hope that one woman health centre will be established in each of the 18 districts in Hong Kong, and we hope that Secretary Dr KO Wing-man will provide help in this respect by examining whether additional resources can be allocated in the coming budget, so as to set up more health centres to serve more women.
Secondly, the Government always says that increasing the number of service centres may not truly be able to help women, because statistics show that the total number of women registered to use women healthcare services is under 20 000, representing only 1% of the total female population in Hong Kong. It seems that the Government wants this Council and Members to believe that not many women have such needs, and it is doubtful whether it is cost-effective to allocate additional resources as requested and whether it is in line with the requirement and criteria of "value for money". However, can we consider this issue from another angle? In my view, the low utilization rate may not indicate that women do not have such needs, but that the Government's publicity on healthcare services for women is inadequate, or the service time and location of centres have caused great inconvenience to women, such that although some women have the need for healthcare service, or they may even have considered registration for using the service, they can hardly spare the time out of their hectic schedule and chores, such as preparing for meals, sending their children to school and picking them up after school, and taking care of the elderly members of their family, to use the service. Besides, apart from registration, they have to queue up for using the service. To save the trouble, they just give up. Therefore, the location of service centers and service hours have discouraged women from getting public-funded services in respect of prevention and treatment of diseases and health checkups.
The third problem is that women may not be sufficiently aware of their health conditions. Hong Kong people are really tough and hardworking, there is a time for going to work, but not so for getting off work. Very often, people put their health at a low priority. They do not care about getting an annual health checkup or they may think they can do so a couple more years later. They keep delaying, ignoring their basic health needs and the importance of their health.
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To address the above problems, the Government should enhance the publicity on healthcare services for women in various districts, introducing in detail the items of service, fees and waiting time under the relevant programmes. Of course, the authorities should allocate more resources to set up more service points and shorten the waiting time, as well as increase the service capacity. With regard to the other aforesaid problems mentioned by me, the Administration should consider conducting a comprehensive study to ascertain women's health awareness, as well as their expectations of and demand for healthcare services. When the Government submits funding application for additional resources to enhance women health services on the basis of the study results, I believe Members of this Council will certainly render their support.
On the other hand, I would like to talk about cervical cancer and the subsidy for prophylactic vaccines, which is very important and is requested by many women. In fact, breast cancer and cervical cancer are the main killers in Hong Kong, with breast cancer ranking the third. Of the 10 most common cancers suffered by women, breast cancer certainly ranks first, followed by cervical cancer, ovarian cancer and uterine cancer. Women are greatly concerned about such cancers. Medical studies have long proved that human papillomavirus vaccination can prevent cervical cancer. It has become a trend for women to take this precaution, and there are many advertisements and promotions on this service. However, vaccination is very expensive with three or four dosages costing $3,000 or $4,000 in total, which cannot be afforded by many grass-roots women and children. Under such circumstances, will the Government consider subsidizing this vaccination to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor, so that every woman would have the chance to be vaccinated? Sometimes, the Government would use the excuse that women suffer from such illnesses because they do not have regular checkups. As people in Hong Kong have a long life expectancy, especially women whose average age is close to 90, and as the saying goes, "prevention is better than cure", early vaccination can prevent cancer, which will reduce our future medical expenses. As a matter of fact, this practice can help both the Government and taxpayers to reduce their future medical expenses.
Therefore, President, from this perspective, I hope that colleagues will support Dr KWOK Ka-ki's amendment and urge the Government and Dr KO Wing-man to study how to strengthen the health protection for women who constitute over half of our population.
I so submit. 4570 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): President, today we discuss the motion on "Stepping up the promotion of primary healthcare development and improving healthcare services for elderly people". I believe Members who propose the motion and the amendments, as well as those who have spoken consider that healthcare services, especially those for the elderly, in Hong Kong are inadequate, or even highly unsatisfactory. To rate healthcare services on a scale from 0 to 10, I would not give more than 5. Why are our healthcare services so unsatisfactory? From a macroscopic point of view, we only have to ask a few questions: Is there a lack of funds? Is there a lack of land to build hospitals and clinics? Or is there a lack of talents, that is, doctors and other healthcare personnel? I find that the root cause of the problem lies in a lack of planning, and a lack of the inability to draw up a plan. I will talk about them in detail later on.
Concerning healthcare services for the elderly, it is of course very important in the face of an ageing population. Many colleagues have presented various statistics tonight, such as the demographic structure of Hong Kong in 2041. I need not repeat them here. The Secretary should have a clear picture in mind but he will not stay in office until 2041. Longevity should be a blessing as everyone is afraid of death, but the thinking has changed now. While people are afraid of death, they are also afraid of not dying; and most importantly, they are afraid of not being able to die well.
According to the newly released findings of a survey on the standard of poverty line, there were 300 000 grass-roots elderly people living in poverty, accounting for one third of all elderly people in Hong Kong. Many elderly people have no children to depend on or their children are unable to provide for them. Elderly people cannot earn a living in the proper employment market and the welfare network cannot provide adequate support for them. These people may have to eke out a living by collecting cardboards or take up some light manual jobs. Once they are seriously ill, they may not be able to die well.
Therefore, last year, we filibustered at the meetings of the Finance Committee and at the Council meetings to approve the Budget to fight for implementing a non-income tested Old Age Living Allowance Scheme, refunding $10,000 to the people and implementing a universal retirement protection scheme. It was a shame that the SAR Government was so stingy and mean, and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4571 had not shown any respect for the elderly. The idea of "giving the elderly a sense of security" has become a mere slogan.
Today, many Members have focused on the Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme (HCVS), proposing to give all elderly persons healthcare vouchers amounting to $1,000, so that they can receive private primary healthcare services. This proposal is put forward because our public healthcare system is unable to cope with the demand and hence, it is hoped that through providing the vouchers, the private healthcare sector can offer help. However, many elderly people have told us that the healthcare vouchers are just "better than none". As a matter of fact, since the implementation of the HCVS in 2009, there have been criticisms about low utilization rate, low participation rate of doctors and insufficient financial support. While the HCVS has been implemented for four years, it is still rife with blunders. Recently, the public have found that many of the clinics on the list provided by the Department of Health on the eHealth website had already withdrawn from the HCVS and had even relocated. Their withdrawal rate is also very high. Also, as many elderly people do not know how to go online to make enquiries, the website cannot offer them any assistance.
As regards these mismanagement problems, the Secretary should make efforts to rectify them. In my opinion, if healthcare vouchers are so difficult to use and manage, why does the Government not just give cash subsidy to elderly people? My argument is actually very simple, but of course the Government is unwilling to do so. If the Government directly gives money to the elderly, Secretary Dr KO Wing-man needs not get involved. Actually the purpose of providing the elderly with $1,000 or $2,000 for medical attention is to keep them healthy. Why not give them a choice? For example, they can spend the money on buying a chicken to eat or joining a gym to do exercise to improve their health, or spend it on a trip to relax, which is good for their physical and mental well-being and can reduce their chance of falling ill. Of course, the Government would say that if the elderly are given money directly, they may use the money unwisely instead of seeking medical consultation.
Many Members also proposed to lower the eligibility age of HCVS from 70 to 65 and the HCVS rate was considered too low. Mr Albert HO proposed to increase the rate to no less than $1,500 a year, and Dr Priscilla LEUNG even proposed to increase it to $2,000. I seldom commend her but this time her amendment was very aggressive. Mr POON Siu-ping sided with the 4572 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Government and said that people reaching the age of 70 should be given vouchers amounting to $1,000 but those aged 65 to 69 should receive half the rate, that is, $500. Then, is the Government in lack of funds? Secretary Dr KO Wing-man can tell us later on if the Government is truly in lack of funds or it is just hard to ask the Government for more funding.
I wish to talk about dental services for the elderly. Last time when we filibustered, we had discussed this topic at length. As regards the elderly dental care voucher, some proposed to set the rate at $2,000. Although the Community Care Fund Task Force of the Commission on Poverty introduced the Elderly Dental Assistance Programme last year, the response was less than satisfactory. Besides, the Programme at present only targets at eligible elderly people who are not receiving the Comprehensive Social Security Allowance but are receiving the Integrated Home Care Services or Enhanced Home and Community Care Services funded by the Social Welfare Department. Under such a narrow scope, most grass-roots elderly people cannot benefit from the Programme. Also, as far as I understand, it was expected that the Programme would help over 10 000 eligible elderly people to pay for dental services, such as denture-fixing, tooth filling or extractions but so far, only 600 odd elderly people have been referred to the Programme and only a few hundred people have completed their treatment.
This year, we had raised an oral question in the Council meeting and to the Legislative Council Complaints Division, that is, if the Government was to provide dental care service for the elderly and the service would cover all aspects that we had proposed, how much money would be needed? I can recall that in Secretary Dr KO Wing-man's reply, he did not give us any figure. When the question was posed through the Complaints Division on whether the Government currently lacked the funds or the manpower, the official honestly told us that there was a lack of manpower. As regards where to recruit the manpower and how many people should be trained, he was unable to provide any figures. If the Secretary has more information about the elderly dental care service today, I hope that he will not tell us that "prevention is better than cure" or the promotion of preventive education. Today, we focus on the problems about the elderly people. To these people, when they lose one tooth, they have one tooth fewer and there is not prevention. At present, we want to save as many people as possible and salvage as many teeth of the elderly people as possible. From this example, we can see it is not that we do not have money or we are unwilling to pay but there is no figure (The buzzer sounded) … I so submit.
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MR CHUNG KWOK-PAN (in Cantonese): President, I do not think there is much controversy about today's motion debate on "Stepping up the promotion of primary healthcare development and improving healthcare services for elderly people". Members have talked about increasing Chinese medicine service, dental and specialist services which I believe will be supported by all Members.
In the last few weeks, this Council had discussed the problems related to primary healthcare. For example, a few weeks ago Dr LEUNG Ka-lau asked about healthcare manpower planning in an oral question and Prof Joseph LEE proposed a motion on formulating a medical policy to support ethnic minority elderly people. Last week, there was a written question on the medical personnel-to-patient ratio. These questions are more or less the same and the crux of the problem is the acute shortage of medical personnel in Hong Kong. For example, Members may have learned from news reports that people have to wait seven or eight hours for treatment at the Emergency and Accident Department of public hospitals and Dr LEUNG Pak-yin, Chief Executive of the Hospital Authority, even had to apologize to the public for the long waiting time. The long waiting time is rightly a reflection of the acute manpower shortage in public hospitals.
Many Members have mentioned just now that the Hong Kong will have to deal with an ageing population in the next few decades with people generally have a longer lifespan. How is the Government going to meet the demand for healthcare services? Of course, the Government has an ample fiscal reserve and it has no problem spending money to acquire various medical facilities. But how to increase the supply of manpower and where can we find doctors? Government statistics show that in the year 2012-2013, the Hospital Authority was short of 250 doctors and various specialties such as anesthesiology, emergency, intensive care, internal, pediatrics, psychiatry and gynecology. All the problems are related to manpower shortage. Now we can only rely on part-time doctors as an expedient measure but what is the long-term solution to this problem? Even if we have the resources to train local doctors, it will take time and there will not be an increase of medical graduates until 2015 to 2018. How can water afar put off a nearby fire?
President, I think the most straightforward approach is to recruit overseas trained doctors. Of course, I know that once I bring up this proposal, there will be huge reverberations in the medical sector, especially now that the Medical Council of Hong Kong are requiring overseas medical graduates to sit the 4574 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Licensing Examination for non-local medical graduates, the threshold of which is excessively high. The pass rate of this Examination is rather low, only about 10-odd percentage points. This gives us the impression that the medical sector is trying to foreclose competition in order to safeguard their own interests, letting its profession's interests override public interest, and thus in the end it is the general public who suffer.
President, I think that the authorities should relax the current system as soon as possible, allowing overseas trained doctors to practise in Hong Kong through simple registration procedures. It is widely known that it costs a few million dollars to train a doctor, no matter where the place is. However, why should we not use the talents whose training has already been paid by someone else? Some of these talents are Hong Kong people, their parents have spent a few million dollars so that they can become professional physicians.
I have asked the Government this question and the Government always replies in the negative, saying that it cannot be certain about the standard of these doctors. However, for medical graduates from world renowned universities such as Cambridge, Oxford and Harvard, I do not believe they are not up to par to practise in Hong Kong. We can follow the example of Singapore which keeps a list of medical schools in the world and lists out the top ones. If we can recruit medical graduates from these top medical schools to practise in Hong Kong, they will definitely not lower the standard of our healthcare services. As a matter of fact, I believe that by opening up our market for overseas medical practitioners and attracting Hong Kong medical talents graduated overseas to practise in Hong Kong, our pressing needs arising from the acute shortage of medical manpower can be met, which will only benefit Hong Kong, but also facilitate the development of the medical services industry.
President, I so submit.
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): No one would oppose the proposals put forward in today's original motion and amendments because the provision of primary healthcare services for the elderly, including dental care and Chinese medicine services, and even the provision of elderly health centres are all essential. Healthcare should start with strengthening the body and a person needs to be mindful of his health when he reaches the middle age. The Secretary has just LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4575 left his seat. His immune system has been quite weak lately and he needs to use tissue papers all the time.
Compared with the Secretary, the elderly people's conditions are much worse. Their immunity must be boosted to prevent them from falling sick with minor aliments, such that minor aliments will not develop into serious illnesses. It is also necessary to provide proper dental care for the elderly to allow them to enjoy eating and intake nutrients better. Elderly people trust Chinese medicine very much. As Chinese medicine has fewer side effects than Western drugs which are invasive in nature, it is good for all patients.
Elderly health centres can help to take care of the elders, telling them how to deal will chronic diseases and teaching their families how to take care of them. Besides, elderly health centres should also design menus and provide simple and affordable food therapies for the elderly. Some simple physical therapies can also alleviate the elderly people's illness, stimulate their blood circulation and relax their muscle and joints. All these can help prevent the elders suffering from minor ailments from becoming seriously ill.
Therefore, I support the original motion and the amendments but I wish to focus on discussing the issue of carers subsidy. I once said that family members should be inter-dependent and support one another. Today, there are many cases in which a family member, usually a female in her forties, has not gone out to work but stay at home to take care of their elderly family members in their sixties or seventies. There are also cases in which an elderly person in his/her sixties has to take care of another elderly person eighty or ninety years old.
For people in these two age groups, the carers themselves also need the support of the entire community. Take a middle-aged woman who gives up her job to take care of an elderly family member as an example. Although this work is very important and she plays an essential role in her family, as she does not have income, she is financially dependent on other family members. Gradually, she may develop a sense of inferiority, which may jeopardize her mental health. Therefore, when a middle-aged woman bears the responsibility of taking care of the elderly members in the family, she needs to be given a carers subsidy because she also has expenses to pay and needs to save up a sum of money for retirement protection.
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For carers in their sixties, they have even greater need for the subsidy. They may also receive certain allowances but because they have stopped working, they do not have any income. When they take care of someone who is senior in age and frail, they also need a break. Besides, they may have greater needs for medical care.
Hence, for all carers, whatever their ages are, society should accord recognition and financial support to them. If an elderly person lives in a Residential Care Home for the Elderly (RCHE) which has participated in the bought place scheme, he would have to pay $7,000 or $8,000 a month. Hence, if the elderly person is cared for at home by his family and the Government provides a reasonable subsidy for the carer, it will not increase the burden on public funds. In particular, when many elderly people have to wait six years to get a place in the RCHEs, the Government should certainly provide a subsidy to the carers. For elderly people who are taken care of by their families, they will get the concern and trust, which is better than living in RCHEs.
However, for some elderly people who live alone and have no one to care for them, how can we provide services for them? President, when I first became a District Council member, I visited a singleton elderly person in his seventies or eighties in my district who had just lost his wife. He was severely depressed and always stayed in his unit alone, without even opening the window curtain. I visited him in the morning but I felt like it was night time. Because he had poor eyesight, coupled with his depression, I was very worried that he would bump into hard objects and break his bones in his unit. We should provide housing suitable for these hidden or singleton elderly people. We should arrange them to live together, so that the Social Welfare Department (SWD) can provide centralized cleaning and meal delivery services for them. This is more cost-effective and these elderly people can be located easily. For those elderly people who live alone, even if they receive the SWD's meal delivery and household cleaning services, if they have any accidents, it will only be found out when helpers go to their homes. But through the planning of elderly housing, they will be arranged to live in the same neighbourhood, such as helpers can provide centralized services.
The Hong Kong Housing Society provides this kind of services but charges very high fees. Take for example the housing units recently provided in Shau Kei Wan. The units on the upper floors are sold for over $6 million while the units on the lower floors are rented for $15,000 a month, which are not affordable LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4577 to the less well-off. Therefore, the Housing Authority should reconsider the construction of elderly housing. In the past, it provided living units in the form of "sub-divided units" for the elderly but many cases of violence happened in such units. As the elderly population continues to increase, this mode of housing needs to be re-examined. I hope that Secretary Dr KO Wing-man will maintain closer contact with the community organizations and work out with them a new housing mode for the elderly. Thank you, President.
MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): President, the problems mentioned in Miss Alice MAK's motion are not only of immediate concern to many people in Hong Kong, but also have long-term impacts on the healthcare system and even the public finance in Hong Kong.
With an accelerated rate of population ageing, and coupled with a longer life expectancy and declining birth rate, the dependency ratio of the Hong Kong society is on the rise. At present, every 1 000 people at working age are supporting 355 dependents. It is expected that by 2041, every 1 000 people at working age will have to support 712 dependents. The people are unwilling to have children for various reasons. Even though the Government has put forward a number of measures in the consultation document on population policy to encourage childbearing, I do not believe it will be easy to make childrearing the mainstream lifestyle.
Under such a trend, it is expected that the demand for elderly healthcare and community care services will continue to increase, exerting increasing pressure on the healthcare and welfare systems. As public hospitals in Hong Kong provide comprehensive, reliable and affordable services, the public have more confidence in the public hospital system, leading to the imbalance between the public and private healthcare sectors.
As a result, there is mounting pressure on the public healthcare system. Doctors and nurses in public hospitals have to work long hours, and very often many elderly people and chronic patients have to wait six months to one year before they can consult specialist doctors for just a few minutes. For many elderly retirees who have no fixed income but with declining health conditions, they naturally are in need of public healthcare services. For elderly people suffering from common health problems, they have to wait months or years 4578 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 before getting treatment at the Medicine, Ophthalmology and Orthopaedics Departments of public hospitals.
I know many elderly people suffer from chronic illnesses, such as diabetes, heart problems, degeneration of the joints and dementia. As they cannot get a place in the government subsidized residential care homes for the elderly (RCHEs) and cannot afford the high fees of private healthcare services, they can only wait for services provided by public hospitals. During the prolong waiting period, their health conditions deteriorate. As for their spouses or elder children who have to take care of them, they are under great stress both physically and mentally, and their health also deteriorates. A vicious cycle is thus formed.
In the Consultation Document on Healthcare Reform published in March 2008, apart from the issue on healthcare financing, the Government also proposed to enhance primary healthcare, follow up on the public's health and perform the "gatekeeping" role of other healthcare services. I agree to this direction of development. But the primary healthcare services currently provided by the Government for the elderly is insufficient, and fail to cope with the overall demand for healthcare services brought by population ageing in future.
Among the many proposals put forward in the original motion and the amendments, I think a number of them should be accorded priority in the allocation of additional resources. Concerning primary healthcare for the elderly, many Members have mentioned just now the problems concerning telephone appointment service. Although I am from the IT sector, I will not insist on the application of technology in this case. Dr Fernando CHEUNG and Mr Albert HO propose to have live operators answering the phone calls, which is very important to elderly people, and the Government should take on board their views. The Government should also increase the healthcare voucher amount and lower the eligible age from 70 to 65 or even 60 to benefit more elderly people.
Moreover, the Government should consider introducing a healthcare voucher scheme for low-income chronic patients who pass the income and asset tests, so that they can receive subsidies to meet medical expenses and relieve their financial burden. The Government should also increase the resources and manpower of public dental clinics, and provide assistance to low-income elderly people who cannot afford specialist dental treatments. I support Dr KWOK LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4579
Ka-ki's proposal to set up an "elderly dental care scheme" and increase the resources for psychiatric services.
In respect of community care for the elderly, the Government adheres to the policy principle of "ageing in place as the core, institutional care as back-up" and encourages the elderly to age at home. However, many elderly people who fail to get a place in the residential care homes for the elderly (RCHEs) suffer from chronic illness, and have difficulty getting about. They thus need community care services. However, the waiting time for day care centres for the elderly is very long and the scope of their services is limited; besides, elderly people also need escort services. The Government should allocate more resources to promote the outreaching care and community care services provided by the private sector.
Frail elderly people need long-term care and their carers will have to bear tremendous pressure. Carers need to acquire specialized knowledge on caring for the elderly, but there are very few subsidized places providing home care services for the elderly and the services are only available during office hours. Many carers of the elderly want to find people who can provide round-the-clock care for the elderly, and they can only wait for places in subsidized RCHEs. If the elderly are ineligible for RCHEs, the carers have to find other options, such as arranging them to live in private RCHEs, and for those who have the financial means, they can even employ foreign domestic helper to take care of the elderly. Society has great demand for this kind of service, and I hope that the Government will allocate more resources to extend the coverage of the Pilot Scheme on Community Care Service Voucher for the Elderly, relax the restriction on applicable districts and eligibility of applicants, issue more vouchers to give financial support to service providers and users, so that more elderly people with genuine need can use these services.
Lastly, I agree with Dr Fernando CHEUNG that the Government should increase the subsidy on healthcare services, and base on the review of the distribution of resources among various hospital clusters under the Hospital Authority, alleviate the problems of long waiting time, insufficient beds and manpower shortage. To increase primary healthcare services, we hope that the Government will allocate additional resources to universities to train healthcare personnel specialized in family medicine, so as to meet the needs for primary healthcare services.
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President, I support today's motion and amendments. I hope that the Government will allocate more resources and review the present distribution of resources, help the elderly people in genuine need, optimize the use of public money and improve our healthcare and community services.
Thank you, President.
MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, every problem has its root cause and to solve a problem, one must tackle its root cause first. It is the same with medical treatment. We must find out the cause of disease before treatment can be provided. I believe Secretary Dr KO Wing-man is well aware of this.
At present, the biggest symptom of the healthcare system in Hong Kong is the chain reaction caused by general out-patient clinics, which I call the "syndrome of insufficient consultation chips at general out-patient clinics". Many colleagues have mentioned that members of the public very often fail to get a consultation chip at out-patient clinic through telephone appointment. After failing to get a chip, there are a few possibilities. Here are my assumptions. First, some people will call again the next day to get a chip. However, their conditions may worsen the next day. Feeling unwell, some people may go to the accident and emergency (A&E) department for treatment. That is why the A&E departments are constantly packed with people. There are many such patients. I had conducted a survey in the middle of this year and found that over 30% of the patients would go to the A&E department for medical attention if they fail to make an appointment at the out-patient clinic by telephone booking. Therefore, there is always a continuous stream of patients at the A&E department. Another possible outcome is the Government is pressurized to increase the number of consultation chips. Doctors are required to treat three more patients a day. As a result, doctors become busier and the duration of consultations may shorten. No wonder some people always say that at the out-patient clinic, no sooner have they entered the consultation room, perhaps even before the doctor has time to find out if the patient is a male or a female, the consultation is over because the doctor is just too busy. If there is any oversight in examination, the patient's condition may worsen. As a result, a minor ailment may become a serious illness and a serious illness may become fatal. Being so busy, doctors are not happy at work and may lose their enthusiasm. In the end, they may resign, and it will be difficult for the Hospital Authority to retain talents. In the face of this LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4581 chain reaction, it is not absolutely impossible to find a right remedy to address this problem; but to cure a disease, one has to identify the root of the problem.
Earlier, we considered that there was a problem with the A&E department and had to increase its manpower. I brought up the serious problem of long waiting time at the A&E department early this year and the Chief Executive promised in his Policy Address to increase the manpower in the A&E department. I thank him for that. However, from our observation a year later, although the resources and manpower at the A&E department have been increased, the waiting time is still over 20 hours. Recently, I had a personal experience of waiting six hours. At that time, there were just a few people in the A&E department, but I still waited six hours. This situation, I am afraid, will make us an international laughing stock. However, as we cannot increase the consultation chips or ask doctors to attend to more patients, what should be done? I think we should tackle the problem by attending to chronic patients whose conditions are less serious. At present, there are about 1.7 million patients suffering from high blood pressure and about 700 000 diabetic patients, that is 2.4 million in total. Some patients' conditions are very stable and they only get a consultation chip for regular follow up. As their conditions are stable, the doctor would just give them the prescription, yet such patients have taken up the consultation chips. In fact, if these patients can spare one chip for other needy patients, we may suddenly have over 2 million spare chips. Even if fewer of these chips can be spared, say 1 million, the result is already remarkable.
Someone would ask, "CHAN Han-pan, are you suggesting that these patients should be forbidden to go to out-patient clinics?" No. I think two measures can be taken. The first is to expedite the implementation of the public-private partnership scheme. I know that the Government has launched a small-scale public-private partnership scheme in some districts. Under this scheme, certain patients whose conditions are stable can choose to consult specified private doctors while paying the same amount of fees charged by public clinics. These patients are happy with this arrangement as they do not have to wait a long time and can also get a second medical opinion from a private doctor, say advice on the prescription. It will benefit the patients to have one more attending doctor. Besides, if a patient does not need to go back to public hospital for a follow-up appointment, one more consultation chip will be spared. Therefore, I think that the authorities should expedite the launching of the public-private partnership scheme. I know Tuen Mun Hospital is operating on this mode of partnership and I hope that the Secretary will pay close attention to 4582 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 this scheme and extend it to the whole territory, which I believe will benefit many people.
Second, the authorities should expedite the implementation of the policy of treating the patients by Western medical practitioners generally while Chinese medicine practitioners may play a supplementary role. Many studies have shown that the conditions of some chronic patients have improved after they have received the supplementary treatment of Chinese medicine. A survey that I conducted found that over 70% of chronic patients yearned for consulting Chinese medicine practitioners. Since this is their wish and Chinese medicine has proven to be effective, why not let them consult Chinese medical practitioners? However, the Government does not operate Chinese medicine out-patient clinics but collaborates with NGOs or other organizations to provide Chinese medicine treatment in the name of "scientific research". Residents are happy with this arrangement as they can seek treatment from Chinese medicine practitioners but the cost is high as they have to pay over $200 for each consultation, similar to the fees charged by private Western medical practitioners. Therefore, we hope that the Government will expedite the implementation of the policy of treating patients by Western medical practitioners generally while Chinese medicine practitioners may play a supplementary role, and provide assistance for the public, especially chronic patients, to consult Chinese medical practitioners, so as to alleviate the chain reaction at general out-patient clinics.
We believe that if the two aforesaid measures are taken, a large number of consultation chips will be spared. We hope that that Government will treat the malady at the source.
Thank you, President.
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): President, the salaries of senior officials in Hong Kong, especially the Chief Executive, are the highest among all government leaders in the world, but the services received by Hong Kong residents, especially healthcare and dental care services for the elderly, are absolutely disproportionate to the salaries of government officials. Therefore, if we calculate the ratio of healthcare needs of the elderly, especially dental care, to the government officials' salaries, I believe it will just be like the popularity of LEUNG Chun-ying, which is not worth a dime and may even have a negative value.
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Many years ago, some friends of my parents told me, to tell whether a place, country or city was well governed, whether its government cared about the people and whether it treated its people humanely, one had to look at the dental health of the elderly people there. For the people in the United States or Scandinavian countries, be they children, adults or elderly people, their teeth are white and straight. For elderly people in Hong Kong, especially the recipients of the Comprehensive Society Security Allowance or those living in public housing, their teeth are generally in a very poor state. That is the evidence of the negligence of an inhumane government, including the British Hong Kong Government, towards the health needs of its people, especially the elderly.
This of course involved the officials' understanding and knowledge about the people's health. Never has a dentist taken up the post of a senior official over the years and that may be the result of the tilting of occupations. People who have the background relating to major developers or have the backing of major developers will naturally support major developers. A person with a medical background will also support his own profession. I have heard some dentists say that in the medical framework of the Hospital Authority, dentists are considered second class. This occupation discrimination may likely be the cause of the imbalance of Hong Kong people's dental health and the lack of respect for dentists. The political power and the issues that a profession cares about are inter-related. Therefore, if the functional constituencies are to be abolished in the future, which the People Power will definitely fight for their abolition, and in this Chamber there will not be representatives from the nursing and medical professions but only the representative of the dentists left, the allocation of funds to dental care may increase accordingly.
President, concerning the healthcare issue, we have had many discussions in this Chamber over the past one or two decades. Looking at the information, I had urged the Government to enhance the services of district clinics in 2003. I remember that I had pointed out to different Secretaries in position the importance of healthcare services at district level. If the services at district level are inadequate, it will affect the various specialties in the cluster system. There are many such examples. For instance, cardiac patients are very often required to travel long distances to consult doctors at the cardiac specialty clinic in Aberdeen, even if they live in Tuen Mun, Tin Shui Wai, Yuen Long or the North District. Also, many people often have to travel long distances to Queen Mary Hospital or other hospitals specializing in various areas to get medical attention. Some children suffering from septal defect or the like have to travel four hours 4584 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 back and forth to go to the specialty clinics with their parents to seek medical attention. After such a long journey and going to so much trouble, those who are not ill would become ill; those whose illnesses are not life-threatening would become life-threatening; those whose family members are originally healthy would fall ill; and those who are not physically ill would become psychologically ill.
The waiting time of a new case for specialty services has not seen any improvements in the past few years. From 2010 to 2013, over one half of the new cases have to wait over 90 weeks and the proportion of such cases continues to rise. The specialties involved include Medicine, Gynaecology, Obstetrics, Dental, Orthopaedics and Traumatology. In the year 2010-2011, the percentage of new specialty cases having to wait 90 weeks were 49%, 48% or 70% respectively. In the year 2012-2013, the percentage of individual specialties has risen from over 40% to over 60% and for some other specialties, it has even risen from 70% to 97%. From this we can see that the waiting time of new specialty cases continues to lengthen.
President, I would like to discuss the dental problems of the elderly in particular. I have criticized the Government just now and I said it should allocate more resources to rectify this problem. Several years ago, BBC interviewed some elderly persons in Tin Shui Wai and probed into their health problems. I invited them to interview an elderly man who had a mouth full of steel dentures. I had cited this example in this Chamber before. The reporter asked the elderly man why he had all his teeth replaced with steel dentures. This man was not the actor in the James Bond spy movie. He said that he had steel dentures because he could not get any subsidies from the Government and crowning was very expensive in Hong Kong, so he had his dentures fixed in his home country in Fujian. As steel dentures were the cheapest so he had steel dentures. He was not a fan of the character with steel teeth in the James Bond movie and he had steel teeth purely for economic reasons. This interview of a man with steel teeth in Hong Kong was broadcast all over the United Kingdom and we became a laughing stock. We were seen by the international community that our Government was so heartless that it did not even provide proper primary care for its people. The Hong Kong Government has a fiscal reserve and surplus of $2 trillion but it still refuses to take good care of elderly people. Therefore, I have to strongly denounce the Government and hope that the Secretary will give us some good news later on.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4585
PROF JOSEPH LEE (in Cantonese): President, in the last few days, my assistant kept asking me why I did not move any amendments to today's motion. I have represented the health services sector for 10 years but why did I not propose amendments?
When we were having a meal just now, colleagues also kept asking me whether I would speak later or whether I had already spoken. I felt totally helpless when I looked at them. I have not proposed any amendments but why do I speak now? That is because I have represented this sector for 10 years and in these 10 years, this Council has discussed numerous times in this Chamber the subject of Miss Alice MAK's motion and also the amendments proposed by other Members, and relevant motions had also been passed.
However, as the President said at the beginning of this debate this morning, "these are motion debates with no legislative effect …". They have no legislative effect. As Mr Albert CHAN said just now, we hope that the Secretary will bring us some good news after Members have spoken. How much good news have the former Secretary and the incumbent Secretary brought to us? I dare not say. Why should I feel helpless? That is because all the proposals that we have put forward are tasks that the Government should have done but has not done.
The amendments and motion respectively proposed by Members and Miss Alice MAK today all focus on primary healthcare. Primary healthcare is very important. It concerns, for example, elderly people seeking medical help, how to handle elderly people's dental problems, how to care for elderly people's health and the importance of community care. However, I wish to point out that primary healthcare is more than merely providing consultation and treatment to people who are ill.
Members have talked about optimizing the use of healthcare vouchers. I remember that after I had been re-elected for the second term, I put forward the concept of healthcare vouchers to the former Secretary and I also spoke to the former Chief Executive that I hoped the primary healthcare services could be properly implemented. The key to this concept is, we believe, when people grow old, their physical functions may not have problems but they will certainly slow down. If we can provide proper primary healthcare for them so that they do not have to consult doctors all the time; or instead of giving them $1,500 or $2,500 to consult doctors, we spend the money on taking care of their health so as 4586 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 to slow down the declining process of their physical functions, then they do not need to seek medical attention at hospitals, clinics or from private medical practitioners all the time, which will in turn save a lot of resources.
However, Secretary, the Government allocates about $44 billion to the Hospital Authority around this time every year, providing medical care services at the secondary or even tertiary level. The Department of Health (DOH) is responsible for the health of about 6.5 million people in Hong Kong. How much money does it get? I wonder if it will even get one tenth of that amount. Under such circumstances, how can primary healthcare ever be developed?
As a matter of fact, the development of primary healthcare services means more than consulting doctors and dentists, or distributing more consultation chips in public hospitals. The key to the problem with our primary healthcare is the DOH, which is doing little at present. The function of the DOH is to promote public health and health education but it has a hard time performing this function with the scant resources and manpower. As the Secretary has said, there were health centres for the elderly but some Members have pointed out just now that elderly people have to wait a long time to get the services at the centres. They only have their blood pressure checked twice a year and hence they cannot find out if they have any medical problems. In this way, how can these health centres help prevent diseases among the elderly people?
Secretary, after tonight, I hope that you will take a serious look at this problem and will do more than just increasing the funding and extending the healthcare services. Promoting the education on primary healthcare and safeguarding public health are also very important. For example, in a professional healthcare team, the dietician has the knowledge and expertise of the diets of elderly people. If elderly people's diets are well-planned and they can intake nutrients better, it will slow down the deterioration of their physical functions and thus they would need less medical attention and would be healthier. Take podiatrists for example. People may not know what podiatry is but it definitely involves more than scraping toe nails like what is done in a Shanghai-style bathhouse. A podiatrist mainly examines the feet of elderly people and treats their foot problems. We can check our feet at home and compare them with those of younger people. We will see that elderly people's feet are different. For example, the toe nails and skin of their feet are thicker, and their feet are less sensitive when they walk. The podiatrist helps elderly people improve the conditions of their feet, so as to prevent them from LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4587 developing calluses and ingrown toenails or thick toenails. In this way, they can walk without pain and their health will also improve.
Again, take optometrists as an example. There are many optometrists in the community. Do not be mistaken that optometrists are only to adjust your spectacles. It is not so. If the Government can, through healthcare vouchers, encourage elderly people to have their eyes examined by optometrists every year, they can at least find out if they have cataracts. For those whose cataracts are at an early stage, they can wait because they can still see and there are ways to adjust their eyesight; but for those whose cataracts are at an advanced stage, they need surgeries right away to enable them read newspapers and racing tips. Thus they might even have the chance to win a $90 million lottery. Besides, it will also reduce their risks of falling. This is an essential part of primary healthcare in the community.
There are also physical therapists and occupational therapists. Do not be mistaken that they only take care of rehabilitation treatments. At the community level, the concept about ageing at home involves teaching the elderly how to adapt to higher stairs, to climb up those stairs and also do some simple exercise. In fact, occupational therapists and physical therapists both play an important role in helping the elderly lead a healthy life and age in the community. Of course, there are also nurses who can provide various kinds of care for elderly people who want to age at home, so that elderly people and their families can feel at ease and lead a health life in the community.
Honourable colleagues have also mentioned about the issue of mental health as stated in the amendments. Clinical psychologists can diagnose and treat elderly people in the community and address the problem of depression commonly found among the elderly.
All the aforementioned examples have practical functions. Our professional healthcare teams can actually promote the development of primary healthcare in the community, allowing the elderly to have healthy developments and live in the community, rather than having trouble in their later years. We have to remember that the elderly do not always need to see doctors. Members here all have healthy parents at home. If there are such teams ― Secretary Dr KO Wing-man, please consider allocating resources to the DOH, other community enterprises or NGOs, allowing them to do more work in this respect 4588 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 as the development of primary healthcare will benefit the elderly more. Thank you, President.
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): The ageing population is a great obstacle to the development of the healthcare system in Hong Kong, in particular primary healthcare services. First of all, I would like to thank Miss Alice MAK for proposing this motion on the improvement of the primary healthcare services. In this debate, many colleagues have put forward proposals in various areas and expressed their concerns. Seriously speaking, to improve the healthcare services, it is most important to ensure the attentiveness of the services which can only be achieved with sufficient resources.
According to my observation, the Hospital Authority (HA) or the Government have allocated handsome sums of money in this area in the past few years. For example, the funding for the Hong Kong West cluster in 2009-2010 was $3.65 billion, which was raised to $3.77 billion in 2010-2011 and again to $4.76 billion in 2011-2012; the funding for the New Territories West cluster in 2009-2010 was $3.98 billion, which was raised to $4.15 billion in 2010-2011 and again to $4.99 billion in 2011-2012. The funding is increased each year and the increases are rather substantial, but what is the people's impression about the service? My impression is that there are a lot of room for improvement. In other words, even if the Government allocates more money, it may still be unable to solve the problem. The most important problems are: first, the ageing population; and second, the service may have missed the target which certainly gives people the impression that no matter what is done, it still seems to be inadequate.
In the accident and emergency (A&E) departments of some hospitals in the New Territories West cluster, the waiting time is at least three or four hours. There are fewer attendances at Pok Oi Hospital, but the waiting time is still two to three hours. That is the key point that we see. Why is it so? Let us look at some situations and we will find out what has actually happened.
Apart from increasing the funding, the Government also constructs new hospitals, such as the North Lantau Hospital. After its commissioning, the Hospital can only provide eight hours' A&E service. The 24-hour A&E, in-patient and general services will only be available in phases starting from 2014. The Government has also decided to build a hospital in Tin Shui Wai, but LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4589 it will not start operation until 2016 or 2017. What is the reason for that? The Government is not short of funds or land but it is short of manpower, medical manpower. Therefore, the HA has to stall the works progress until there is sufficient manpower. I think that the Government has all along lacked proper manpower planning and it had no idea that it led to the manpower shortage. It only realized the medical manpower shortfall when it started to construct hospitals and was thus forced to stall the works progress. This indicates the HA's poor manpower planning.
Moreover, I think that there is room for improvement in certain areas of healthcare services. Take for example the Tin Shui Wai Community Health Centre commissioned last year. The services provided by this health centre include treatment for chronic diseases, nurse clinic, smoking cessation counselling, physical therapy, prosthetic and orthopaedic services, and even some minor services such as psycho-social support services. Prof Joseph LEE has mentioned just now that these community centres can also provide disease prevention services. However, at present only the health centre in Tin Shui Wai can provide these services. Will the Government make available such centres in all 18 districts? If it is done properly, I believe that Dr KO Wing-man is able to solve the problem without hiring more doctors to treat patients in hospitals. Therefore, community planning is the key to solving the aforesaid problems.
Besides, I am also concerned about the provision of Chinese medicine services in public hospitals. The DAB has conducted a survey and found that many people do not know what kind of Chinese medicine services are included. We conducted a survey in October this year and found that 66.2% of the respondents knew that there were Chinese medicine clinics operated by the Hospital Authority and 31.6% respondents were not aware of that; and 87.4% of the respondents considered there was a need for further development and promotion of Chinese medicine services in Hong Kong while 3.8% did not think so. This implied that many people thought that Chinese medicine services were very important. 74.4% respondents thought that the Government had not made sufficient efforts in promoting the development of Chinese medicine and the combined application of Chinese and Western medicines, while only 10.8% thought that the Government's efforts were sufficient. Also, 76.2% respondents thought that there was a need to establish Chinese medicine hospitals to provide services in this respect.
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While many Chinese people love and trust Chinese medicine, the Government seems to allocate too few resources to promote it. We also see that Chinese medicine can make contributions in areas where Western medicine cannot. There is also the combined application of Chinese and Western medicines which can achieve a rather good result and is well trusted by elderly people. Therefore, we think that the Government should significantly enhance the primary healthcare services in this area and concentrate its efforts in improving it.
President, I so submit.
MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Cantonese): President, when greeting others, we most often wish them good health. It is true that people nowadays are very mindful of their health because no matter how rich a person is, without good health, he would worry he might not have the time to enjoy his fortune.
City dwellers are suffering more and more common diseases. Whether that is because the germs are becoming more potent or wage earners fall ill from overwork, this situation is obvious to everyone. I believe that few city dwellers can live healthily in their eighties and nineties and seldom need to seek medical attention. Nowadays, people do not just suddenly fall ill at old age, but rather they have their illnesses accumulated during their youth, as a result of tenacious overwork without properly and promptly taking care of their health problems over the years, and when they grow old, these problems will come to haunt them.
It is an undisputable fact that the population in Hong Kong is ageing. The increased healthcare demand of elderly people will certainly lead to an increase in Hong Kong's healthcare expenditure, but if preventive measures are taken promptly to take proper care of people's illnesses at an early stage, it will certainly reduce the future healthcare expenses needed when people grow old and are faced with more serious illnesses. Therefore, today I would like to talk about the principle that we are very familiar with, that is, treating an illness when it is still at an early stage. No matter what illness we come down with, we must treat it promptly.
Next, we will have to magnify the true spirit of the traditional Chinese medicine, that is, to include Chinese medicine in the public healthcare services. Everyone knows that Chinese medicine attaches great importance to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4591 strengthening the foundation, which is an essential part of primary healthcare in a Chinese community. The weather changes constantly in Hong Kong. When the weather changes, people will easily come down with common cold and as long as they consult a Chinese medicine practitioner, take some herbal medicine and take a brief rest, they will recover soon. There is no need to take Western drugs all the time. As a matter of fact, I wonder why Chinese medicine which is the essence of a few thousand years' experience would become a "concubine" in a Chinese society like Hong Kong and has never gained a proper status in the public healthcare system under the Hospital Authority.
Actually in 2003, the Government aimed to provide Chinese medical out-patient service in all 18 districts through the partnership of three sides, namely the Hospital Authority, non-governmental organizations and local universities, but now a decade has passed, it has failed to provide all 18 but only 17 such clinics. The number of attendances at these clinics has risen from 67 000 in 2004 to 910 000 in 2012. Most of these patients suffer from minor illnesses such as common cold, diarrhea or pain. It is expected that the number of attendances this year will exceed 1 million.
We can see from these figures how popular Chinese medicine is; but these figures also tell us another fact, that is, the imbalance between supply and demand. With 910 000 attendances at 17 clinics, it means every Chinese medicine clinic (CMC) receives 53 000 attendances each year. Making a conservative assumption that there are 30 Chinese medicine practitioners in each clinic, it implies that each practitioner has to handle over 1 700 cases each year, which is a far cry from the ratio of registered healthcare professionals to the total population, 1: 550 odd, as shown by government statistics. Therefore, all these figures are telling the Government that the people need public Chinese medicine services. There are the market and manpower. The problem is that the Government has all along refused to look squarely at this issue. With so many attendances at public Chinese medicine clinics, one may be mistaken that the fees are low but the fact is that these services are not subsidized. Each consultation usually charges $120, which almost doubled the fees charged by general out-patient clinics at $50 or $60 including the $40 consultation fee and the medicine. Why then do people still seek treatment from those clinics? Members should have an idea.
Besides, if Chinese medicine service can become a public service, in theory it should receive subsidies from the Government. With government subsidies, 4592 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 the consultation fee should be lowered, making Chinese medicine services available to more grass-roots people. Groups of civil servant already requested the extension of the coverage of civil servants' medical benefits to include Chinese medicine some time ago. In fact, the Federation of Trade Unions had some heated arguments with the Civil Service Bureau towards the end of the last session concerning this topic, but the Bureau held all along that Chinese medicine was not part of the proper government healthcare system and refused our proposal. We think that the Bureau, and even the Government, are highly myopic and give no regard to the genuine needs and voices of the people.
As a matter of fact, early and proper implementation of primary healthcare can improve the people's health which in turn reduces the additional medical expenses needed in future as the population ages and also relieves the elderly patients' pain and suffering resulted from diseases.
Moreover, I also wish to mention that last week I met a group of retirees, a group of charitable volunteer workers, who came to visit the Legislative Council Complex and they voiced their aspiration directly to us about primary healthcare services, especially healthcare services for the elderly. I believe that earlier, many colleagues have already talked about dental care vouchers for the elderly and even the implementation of similar schemes, such as the School Dental Care Service in the long run. They have also mentioned the severe insufficiency of resources suffered by health centres for the elderly and the long time people have to wait to get their services. A member of these centres has to wait one to one and a half years for a medical check-up but to become a member, one has to wait three or four years. How many three or four years can an elderly person have? Therefore, I hope that the Bureau will really be mindful of the plights of these elder brothers and sisters of ours and expand the relevant services and increase the healthcare expenditure.
I so submit. Thank you, President.
MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): President, whenever the community requests the Government to increase welfare and inject additional resources to satisfy the various needs of elderly people in healthcare, residential care, housing, transport and retirement protection, we would hear our stingy government denying our requests on various grounds, such as financially unsustainable, high government expenditure on welfare and the impact of an ageing population on LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4593 future economic development. It often exaggerated the burden that the elderly has imposed on the community and demonized the problems related to them, in an attempt to abrogate its due responsibility to them. As a result, elderly policy remains at a standstill in Hong Kong and many measures and suggestions providing proactive support for the elderly cannot be implemented. In the end, the victims are the elderly people who have worked hard in low profile and dedicated their lives for the well-beings of this generation with no grievances made. President, is this unforgivable? How sad this is? It is absolutely unreasonable for elderly people who have dedicated their lives to receive such treatment in return.
Perhaps some people may have fantasy about LEUNG Chun-ying, thinking that his concern about people's livelihood and poverty alleviation will ultimately bring improvements to the elderly. But as I said during last week's motion debate on the low-income subsidy system, LEUNG Chun-ying is good at empty talks. He has said more than done, thinking that words are actions. For example, when dealing with universal retirement protection, poverty alleviation and standard working hours, the Government has either set up committees for extensive discussions or carried out studies after studies. As a result of such a procrastinating tactic, only few measures benefiting the elderly people have actually been put in place. He has at best advanced the introduction of the $2 concessionary elderly fare by one month in a high profile manner. However, this is a good policy inherited from the former government, which has given LEUNG Chun-ying an opportunity to glorify himself.
Another good deed is an outcome of the competition between LEUNG Chun-ying and Henry TANG, and that is, the "double fruit grant" (now known as the Old Age Living Allowance). Other than this, measures for the elderly introduced by the current-term Government are negligible. As I said last week, the unprecedented poverty line drawn up one year after he resumed office is not complemented with any poverty alleviation objective. This reflects that the Government is not determined to solve the poverty problem of the elderly. An example is that the Government has not laid down any objectives, such as reducing the number of elderly living below the poverty line by half, not to mention the formulation of poverty alleviation policies based on the poverty line. Drawing up this two "nos" poverty line which imposes restrictions by tying our own hands does not serve any practical purpose, except for promoting LEUNG Chun-ying's personal image in poverty alleviation.
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President, the recent consultation on population policy is another typical trick adopted by the Government to manipulate the elderly. When former Chief Executives TUNG Chee-hwa and Donald TSANG talked about population policy, "fruit grant" and healthcare reform, they also liked to highlight the harmful effects of an ageing population, stating that there would be one elderly person in every four people, and subsequently one in every three people, and the tax revenue would also decrease as the population got older. By depicting the elderly as the culprit who hindered the society's future development, they had completely neglected the heritage of the elderly's valuable experiences as well as the possibilities to realize the elderly's contributions and explore the huge silver hair market.
LEUNG Chun-ying has all along proclaimed his concern about the elderly, and had showed great care for them during his election campaign. Yet, after he resumed office, he started to follow the book. While proclaiming that the population policy is comprehensive, it is indeed destined to serve economic development. Who said that an increase in the number of elderly persons is tantamount to a reduction of labour force and competitiveness? The proportion of elderly people in the community will be 1:3 in 2041, but so what? Have they not contributed to this community? LEUNG Chun-ying has treated the elderly people in the same way as his two predecessors and likened elderly people to social burden.
In the face of the estimated figures about the ageing population, why can't the Government look at the optimistic and positive side. There is no doubt that the silver hair market will prosper, the community should therefore make use of these experienced elderly to co-ordinate with the sustainable social development. Individuals, families, the business sector and the Government can play different roles in addressing the future needs of the elderly. Unfortunately, our government has merely seen the negative side. When it comes to shouldering responsibilities to meet the needs of the elderly, the Government will instantly change its look and become Mr SCROOGE. With some figures in its mind, it has regarded the elderly as a heavy burden to society in the future.
President, today's motion has devoted a large portion to describe the various aspirations of the elderly for healthcare services in great detail as if it is a political platform. I think this is unnecessary because long and incomprehensible motion is just like compositions written by secondary students, who think that the longer, the better. But the fact is that a long motion will only make the public difficult to understand and blur the focus. The responding LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4595 officer Secretary Dr KO, on the other hand, must be very happy because he can easily speak for an hour by giving a brief response to each point.
While Members think that this can press the Government to do something, the lack of targeted policy and focus may only achieve half of the desired results. I hope that in the future, Members will move motions using wordings that are concise, accurate, specific and to the point, in order to practicably promote improvement in policies.
President, the crux of the present elderly problem is not the minor changes made, but the Government's approach to introduce stop-gap measures, to see the elderly and an increase proportion of elderly people as burden, and blaming them for the society's failure to achieve sustainable development. If the Government does not make an outright change to its mind-set, these extensive motions will become futile. And, before we can give play to our potentials, the Government must change its mindset of a miser and genuinely regard the elderly as contributors.
Earlier, the Legislative Council Subcommittee on Poverty visited Japan to study its policy on serving the elderly people. Its pension system has provided protection for all retired elderly. When we asked how they dealt with the financial burden brought by the increasing elderly population, they replied that the solution is the imposition of consumption tax. I then asked if members of the public oppose the imposition of consumption tax, and they replied that as people generally agreed that the elderly have contributed to the prosperity and stability of the country when they were young, the younger generation is therefore duty-bound to provide them with universal retirement protection in return.
Do Secretary Dr KO and the SAR Government have such moral endowment? If the Government sees the elderly as a burden, how can we believe the proposals made in today's motion will be realized?
Thank you, President.
MR CHAN KIN-POR (in Cantonese): President, Hong Kong has all along attached little importance to the development of primary healthcare, and the target beneficiaries of the Government's general out-patient clinics are chronic patients 4596 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 and the disadvantaged groups. Members of the public who fall ill can only turn to private clinics for elementary medical consultations.
As Members may be aware, primary healthcare is the starting point of healthcare, and is also responsible for the prevention of disease and promotion of public health. If it works well, not only can the general health level of the community be raised, but the demand for specialist out-patient and in-patient services will also drop. It is unfortunate that the Government has never attached any importance to this. A few years ago, I moved the motion "Promoting medical check-up for the whole community" in this Council, hoping to enhance the work of disease prevention, an essential part in primary healthcare. The motion was passed at that time, but no action has been taken by the Government.
As society ages, there is a pressing need to develop primary healthcare and a number of Members have put forward many useful views today. I nonetheless wish to point out that the development of primary healthcare needs substantial resources, and public resources are pretty limited. Injecting additional resources to primary healthcare would reduce the amount of resources earmarked for other healthcare services. After all, healthcare financing is the greatest problem. To find a way out for Hong Kong's healthcare problems, include promoting the development of primary healthcare, we must start with the resources.
The last-term government has actually put forward a good proposal, and that is, promoting the balanced development of public and private healthcare services and implementing the Voluntary Health Protection Scheme (the VHPS). It is hoped that through the implementation of an improved system and a number of economic incentives, people who are dissatisfied with public healthcare services will switch to private healthcare services, thereby reducing public healthcare expenditure.
In fact, a large number of middle-class people, who have the means, are currently patronizing public hospitals. It is not because they do not want to go to private hospitals, but because the public healthcare system has become so big that the relatively smaller private hospital system has scared them off with its few hospital beds and high charges. Therefore, by expanding the private sector, introducing a proper VHPS and providing economic incentives, the middle class would be very willing to patronize private hospitals. Since the service cost of the public healthcare system is very high, the significant reduction in expenditure in the long run would certainly far outweigh the Government's spending on LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4597 economic incentives. The resources saved could therefore be used to improve healthcare services.
Regrettably, it seems that the Government has given up the idea of promoting the development of private healthcare. Of the four sites previously earmarked for the building of private hospitals, only one was granted. Another one has been surrendered to the Government and the remaining two have yet to be finalized. As a result, the plans relating to the medical services industry, one of the six industries where Hong Kong enjoyed clear advantages, may be aborted. It seems that the Government has lost interest in improving the VHPS. It has not only started the VHPS all over again, but has also drastically removed some major parts from the original proposal by abolishing most of the economic incentives and the packaged plans. Worse still, it has proposed to regulate health insurance companies in the private sector. This would inevitably expel those budget health insurance plans from the market. I believe it would be difficult for the new proposal to attract members of the public, and the insurance sector also cast doubt on the effectiveness of the VHPS.
Furthermore, the Government has originally earmarked $50 billion for providing economic incentives under the VHPS, but it now said that only less than 10% would be required for the purpose. I think this is nothing more a deceptive remark to fool itself and others because supposedly that $50 billion should last for 20 years and it is only $2.5 billion for each year. Compared with the $40-odd billion expenditure of the Hospital Authority, this is just a small amount. But compared with the long-term public medical expenditure incurred by the VHPS, this is too little. Meanwhile, the Government has also reduced expenditure by 90% and this showed that the old and new proposal are completely different.
Apparently, it is the intention of the Government to let the public healthcare system remain as powerful as it can, which does not do any good to the community. The public healthcare system has many problems and the biggest one is its emphasis on quantity rather than quality. According to rough estimation, a total of over 16 million people have patronized the public healthcare system every year. No wonder we often see various hospitals packed with patients. Information shows that a general practitioner only has a couple of minutes to diagnose a patient, and some new cases for specialist services have to wait for more than one year while some accident and emergency patients have to wait for more than 10 hours before they can see a doctor.
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This is awfully unsatisfactory. Not only patients have to wait for long time, the healthcare personnel also have to suffer undue pressure. Under this circumstance, it is downright difficult for the doctors to carefully follow up each and every case. It is not uncommon for doctors to fail to ascertain the cause of disease or even make wrong diagnosis. Worse still, hospitals are accustomed to prescribe a large amount of drugs or grant long sick leave for patients so that they will not return for follow up so soon and add to the already heavy burden on the healthcare system. In that case, whether or not the patients have been sufficiently treated is a big question.
I support the proposal to strengthen the development of primary healthcare, but if the Government still stresses quantity rather than quality, it will only turn public healthcare into a "white elephant", which may not necessarily do any good to the public. I think the Government should tackle the problem at root by, inter alia, further promoting the development of twin-track system for public and private healthcare sectors and increasing the incentives for promoting healthcare financing reform. Also, it should refrain from tempering the operation of the commercialized healthcare insurance, otherwise there is no way to provide healthcare services that give equal emphasis to both quality and quantity.
I so submit.
MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, population ageing in Hong Kong is an undisputable fact. According to the projections of the Hong Kong Population Projections 2012-2041, the percentage of persons aged 65 and above in the total population will rise continually and it is estimated that by 2041, one in three people will be an elderly person and one in every three elderly people will be in poverty. Therefore, the future administrative focus should be put on implementing measures (particularly healthcare and nursing measures) to deal with population ageing. The Government should not adopt the stop-gap attitude and propose some minor patch-ups.
The first and foremost task for the authorities is to formulate a policy on the long-term development of healthcare services for the elderly and inject more resources to implement various improvement measures where feasible. In addition, consideration should also be given from an elderly-friendly perspective so as to provide the care and concern which the elderly really need.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4599
We support all the proposals in Miss Alice MAK's original motion and I would express my views on some of them. First, to study the introduction of carer subsidies. I understand the rationale behind this proposal is to encourage family members to care for the elderly and dovetail the authorities' policy objective of encouraging the elderly to age at home. To the elderly who are physically and mentally healthy, ageing at home is certainly the best choice. Considering the matter from another perspective, if carer subsidies can encourage more family members to become carers instead of working outside the home, it can alleviate the pressure on services provided by the residential care homes for the elderly (RCHEs).
However, do family members of elderly people with mobility problems, or those who need special care physically or psychologically have the ability and knowledge to look after them? According to a study, 5% of elderly people aged 70 or above need long-term care by professional healthcare personnel. The older they are, the greater the demand of such care. Although family members can obtain assistance from community nurses in providing professional care, problems of accommodation of supporting facilities, such as wheelchairs and special beds, which take up more space remain unresolved because of the small area and the layout of the housing unit. Therefore, without proper software and hardware supporting facilities, arranging the elderly to stay in RCHEs will remain to be the inevitable choice of many carers.
Therefore, I think apart from encouraging the elderly to age at home where feasible, the authorities have to increase places of RCHEs as a permanent solution. In fact, there is a huge demand for long-term care services in the community. The total number of persons on the waiting list for places of RCHEs is now 29 000. An elderly person has to wait three years on average to get a place and many have passed away while waiting. On the other hand, both private and public RCHEs face the problems of prolonged manpower shortage and high wastage rate. Not only will the services provided be affected, the costs will also increase and such increase will eventually be transferred to customers in the form of higher fees. Therefore, the authorities have to increase places of RCHEs, train a sufficient number of healthcare personnel and set the fees at a reasonable level in order to provide a total solution.
Furthermore, many elderly persons have chosen to stay permanently in the Mainland recently. To a certain extent, this move can immediately alleviate the problems of long waiting list for places of RCHEs and manpower shortage. 4600 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Therefore, the authorities should consider giving financial support to non-governmental organizations and private institutions of Hong Kong for establishing RCHEs in the Mainland for Hong Kong people. This will provide an additional option for the elderly who are eligible for subsidized RCHE places.
Another proposal of the original motion is to enhance the existing services of elderly health centres and study the setting up of additional community health centres in various districts. I consider that it will certainly be better if we can have more facilities and improved services. As prevention is better than cure, giving the elderly frequent chances to exercise will benefit their physical and mental health and reduce their reliance on medical services. However, according to the information provided by the authorities in their reply to a question raised in a meeting of the Legislative Council held in July this year, in all the Elderly Health Centres (EHCs) in Hong Kong, there are actually only 58 nursing staff. In other words, there are only three nurses working in each centre on average. The limited manpower has to meet the huge demand for services. Apart from the demand from existing members, there are about 14 000 elderly persons awaiting to become new members and the waiting time is about 16 months on average. The demand is strong. Given the circumstances, the authorities have to further promote the Elderly Health Service and allocate additional resources to employ more nursing staff in the registered centres.
In addition, since there is a geographical distance between the EHCs and the place of residence of the elderly, the authorities should consider providing feeder transport service to enhance the existing service. Consider if an elderly person has mobility problems, he would need to travel by Rehabus or "diamond cab" which has to be booked in advance and he would have to pay a considerable amount of transport fee. These two factors will directly affect whether the elderly person is willing to go out. In this connection, will the Government consider assisting the elderly with a special transport allowance for the services that they need so as to encourage them to go out and do exercises more frequently?
Regarding the proposal to introduce "elderly dental care voucher", as charges for dental services are generally rather high, the amount of $1,000 per year provided by the Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme (HCVS) can easily be spent on a single dental consultation. Therefore, I consider it reasonable to ask for an increase in the rate of assistance. However, in order to streamline the procedures, save administrative costs and reduce the kinds of vouchers which LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4601 may be confusing for the elderly, I think it may not be necessary to introduce "elderly dental care voucher". I think increasing the rate of assistance in the HCVS will suffice.
Finally, I will give a simple response to Dr Fernando CHEUNG's amendment. The amendment has deleted "study the introduction of" before "carer subsidies" and substitute the words with "introduce". However, the subject of "carer subsidies" is rather controversial and studies on the amount to be given and the feasibility of the initiative are yet to be conducted. Therefore, I cannot support Dr Fernando CHEUNG's amendment.
President, I so submit.
MR IP KIN-YUEN (in Cantonese): President, we hope that the elderly can be provided with proper healthcare, not to be dependent on others, but to be well tended and live their lives to the full.
President, I am the representative of the education sector. As in the case in most other sectors, principals and teachers of public schools shall retire at the age of 60 under normal circumstances. According to the statistics on primary and secondary school teachers provided by the Education Bureau, in 2009, the age median of primary school teachers was 36, and three years later (that is, in 2012), it became 38 which was an increase in two years within such a short period of time. I believe the rate of increase will be even more apparent in the future and this may lead to a problem of succession gap in the teaching profession. With a lack of young teachers joining the profession, the ageing problem in the teaching profession will become more serious.
Since the Government has not implemented a proper retirement protection system, principals and teachers of most schools will have to live on the Grant Schools Provident Fund or the pension provided by public schools and on their own savings after retirement. Based on the latest figures on average life expectancy (86.3 for women and 80.6 for men), these people may live for more than 20 years after retirement. That is a very long period of time. If their investments yield well or they are financially supported by their children, they can live fuller lives in their old age. However, many principals and teachers can hardly make ends meet and lead miserable lives in their old age. Some even suffer from chronic illnesses, they are pathetic and in great need of assistance. 4602 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Therefore, the demands of stepping up the promotion of primary healthcare development and improving healthcare services for elderly people stated in the original motion are also needed in the education sector.
President, the existing Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme (HCVS) which provides the elderly with subsidy for using private primary healthcare services, can indeed lessen the burden of medical expenditure on the elderly, particularly in relation to treatment of non-emergent diseases. It is a great help to the elderly. However, since its launch in the form of a pilot scheme in the financial year 2008-2009, the HCVS has only benefited persons aged 70 or above. Hence, it cannot meet the needs of all of the retired elderly. Therefore, I agree to Mr Albert HO's amendment of lowering the eligible age for applying for HCVS to 65 so as to benefit more elderly people. At the same time, the rate of HCVS should be increased from $1,000 to $1,500 and the procedures should be streamlined because practitioners think that the application procedures are too complicated. Private healthcare service providers are unwilling to join HCVS. The participation rate of private dentists, for example, is only about 20% which is relatively low. If the administrative procedures can be streamlined, I believe more private doctors and dentists will be willing to join HCVS.
Speaking of dentists, I have to talk about the dental problems of the elderly. Dental health is very important to the elderly. As old age sets in, the conditions of their organs begin to deteriorate and a balanced and healthy diet is vital to maintaining their health. If the elderly cannot eat because of dental problems, their immunity will be compromised and they will be prone to various diseases. Therefore, the authorities should enhance dental services for the elderly and introduce "elderly dental care voucher". As proposed in Dr KWOK Ka-ki's amendment, dental services such as scaling, filling and crowning should be introduced. In addition, by making reference to the School Dental Care Service, an "elderly dental care service" should be introduced which will also effectively protect the health of the elderly.
In addition, many elderly people have more faith in Chinese medicine and do not necessarily accept the approach of confrontation therapy of Western medicine. Therefore, the authorities should study the setting up of additional Chinese medicine clinics in various districts, so as to meet the increasing demand for Chinese medicine services.
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Furthermore, the number of chronic patients has been increasing and these patients have to shoulder a heavy burden on medical expenditures. Some new specific drugs are extremely expensive and even the average teacher of the middle class cannot afford them. The Hong Kong Professional Teachers' Union and I have been urging the Government to relax the assessment criteria of the financial test for the Samaritan Fund so as to benefit more people of the middle class. We have also been urging the Government to expand the scope and increase the items of subsidized drugs, including specific drugs for cancer and brain degeneration so that elderly people will not be deprived of proper treatment because of insufficient financial means. Therefore, I agree to the relevant part of Dr Priscilla LEUNG's amendment.
Finally, regarding the amendments proposed by the other Members, including allocating additional resources to enhance community healthcare support and outreach healthcare services, upgrading the quality and quantity of primary healthcare services for persons with disabilities, encouraging all people to undergo physical check-up and restructuring the out-patient services of the Hospital Authority, I will give my support. I also hope that the authorities will expeditiously plan for the provision of healthcare services and enhance their quality in response to the rapid population ageing, so that as I said earlier, the elderly can be provided with proper healthcare, have no worries about future and live their lives to the full after their retirement.
President, I so submit.
DR HELENA WONG (in Cantonese): Primary healthcare is the first tier in the healthcare system and the first point of contact to the system for recipients of continual healthcare services and their family members. It is also particularly important in disease prevention and health promotion for the public.
According to the strategy on "health for all" formulated by the World Health Organization, primary healthcare services should include assisting every individual in disease prevention and health promotion; providing quality healthcare services and continual care so that the people can maintain physical and mental health; promoting the participation of individuals and the community and sharing the responsibilities of promoting health. Unfortunately, the primary healthcare policies of Hong Kong are lagging far behind. They only focus on 4604 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 healthcare services such as disease treatment and services provided by general out-patient clinics, but have neglected disease prevention and health promotion.
In the primary care development strategy released by the Government in 2010, emphasis was placed on the role of doctors as providers of primary healthcare services. The strategy proposed to formulate the Primary Care Directory which would include information about the background and practice of primary healthcare personnel, such as doctors, so as to promote the family doctor concept. This policy has actually continued to place the emphasis of primary healthcare on disease treatment which is not equivalent to health promotion. The fact that members of the public are seeing doctors more does not mean that they can prevent themselves from falling sick.
In order to improve primary healthcare services, the Government has to ensure an adequate and stable supply of resources. For many years, primary healthcare services have been neglected and marginalized and insufficient resources have been allocated in this area. At present, there are 18 elderly health centres established by the Department of Health which provide health assessment, treatment, health education and counselling to persons aged 65 or above. Although the services provided by the elderly health centres are very good, they are far from adequate in meeting the healthcare needs of all the elderly in Hong Kong. In 2012, there were more than 980 000 elderly persons aged 65 or above. However, how many elderly persons could the 18 elderly health centres across the territory serve last year? President, only 38 989 members can be served, which represent only 3.33% of the group aged 65 or above. If an elderly person would like to join an elderly health centre, sorry, he or she has to wait. How long is the waiting period, President? A person has to wait for more than 15 months to become a member of an elderly health centre. Therefore, the Democratic Party hereby urges the Government to significantly increase the resources allocated to elderly health centres and the number of their membership so as to reduce the waiting period.
Let us consider the population of 980 000 elderly persons aged 65 or above further. If we analyse the gender distribution, we would find that the majority is female and there are 524 300 of them, and there are 456 000 male. If we examine the gender analysis of the group of elderly persons aged 75 or above, we would find that there is an even bigger difference. There are 286 400 female and 208 300 male and the difference is close to 80 000. President, as at the beginning of 2012, there were about 1.89 million chronic patients in Hong Kong LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4605 and 52.1% of them were female. If the Government persistently neglects in providing healthcare services for the elderly, women will be the hardest-hit group.
Another area of concern is the substantial increase in the number of people taking Chinese medicine in recent years. Among the 1.89 million chronic patients, the number of people who takes Chinese medicine regularly and those who take both Chinese and Western medicine has increased substantially in recent years. In particular, there is an apparent increase in the number of women who takes Chinese medicine regularly. Therefore, the Democratic Party urges the Government to set up additional Chinese medicine clinics in various districts and increase resources for Chinese medicine services so as to meet the needs of population ageing and the increasing demand for Chinese medicine services. In addition, the Government is urged to inject resources for and accord priority to training Chinese medicine talents.
Another point to note is that the dental services provided by the Government are grossly inadequate, and we have heard Members from various political parties and affiliations speak in support for the Government to inject more resources in this area. At present, there are 11 government dental clinics, but the service hours of these clinics are short and the number of consultation chips allotted is very small. As a result, many elderly persons have to go to another district to obtain service or have to queue up at a clinic for a chip in the small hours. In addition, the scope of services provided by these clinics is narrow and is only limited to treatment of acute dental diseases or oral abscess, pain relief and teeth extraction, but does not cover services such as scaling, filling and crowning. The Democratic Party does not want the elderly to become miserable and toothless and urges the Government to adopt measures to improve the oral healthcare for the elderly, subsidize the elderly in getting dentures and provide financial assistance to non-governmental organizations to expand the district dental services for the elderly and establish small dental clinics in the elderly health centres.
Investing in primary healthcare services will help to promote the health of the public, improve their quality of life and slow down the growth in the demand of medical services.
With these remarks, President, I support Miss Alice MAK's motion on "Stepping up the promotion of primary healthcare development and improving healthcare services for elderly people" and the relevant amendments.
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss Alice MAK, you may now speak on the amendments. The speaking time limit is five minutes.
MISS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): President, first of all, I would like to thank the 37 Members who have spoken. I am also grateful to the seven Members who have proposed amendments and most of them have enriched the contents of my motion. The fact that more than half of my Honourable colleagues of the Legislative Council have spoken shows that the subject is very important. I would now respond to some of the amendments.
First, the amendments of Dr KWOK Ka-ki and Mr Albert HO have supplemented the contents of my motion and added specific details to my proposals. For example, lowering of eligible age for applying for the Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme (HCVS) to 65 and increasing the HCVS rate to $1,500. We will not object to these proposals but will even give our support. However, why have I not included them in my motion? The reason is that in my opinion, the Government should be responsible for formulating the policies and working out the numbers. The Government should tell us the amount that the public needs and which age group of elderly people would need the money. We want the Government to work out the relevant numbers practically. Nonetheless, we would support the amendments proposed by Mr Albert HO and Dr KWOK Ka-ki.
We support most of the contents in Dr Fernando CHEUNG's amendment, and his proposals on primary healthcare services for elderly people are even more ambitious than ours. However, regarding dental services, Dr Fernando CHEUNG's amendment has deleted the words "to introduce 'elderly dental care voucher'" from my original motion. The idea of dental care voucher that we have proposed is based on the concept of "money follows the patient" and we also agree that the Government should commence on enhancing the quality of public dental services. However, as we all know, it takes at least eight years to train local dentists and establish additional public dental clinics. Will the elderly see LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4607 that day in their life time? Hence, providing the elderly with elderly dental care vouchers will be a measure which can immediately assist them.
Dr LEUNG Ka-lau asked why the amount of money concerned is not included in the Elderly Health Care Vouchers. We consider that if the elderly are provided with the vouchers, they might be unwilling to spend them on dental consultations. Therefore, we hope that a specific healthcare voucher for dental services can be introduced.
Dr Priscilla LEUNG's amendment urges the Government to consider increasing the HCVS rate for elderly people aged 70 or above to $2, 000 per person per year. We consider this proposal is consistent with the direction of streamlining the administrative procedures, lowering of eligible age for applying for HCVS and increasing the HCVS rate in the original motion. Therefore, we would support Dr Priscilla LEUNG's amendment.
Mr Steven HO, Mr Frankie YICK and Dr LEUNG Ka-lau have included some reasonable demands in their amendments which have enriched my original motion. The Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions will support their amendments.
President, I hope Members will support my original motion so that together, we can work for the benefit of the elderly. Thank you, President.
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, I thank Members once again for their valuable opinions and proposals. In fact, the population ageing in Hong Kong has brought about a continual increase in the demand for healthcare services. We agree that in the long run, promoting the development of primary healthcare can lessen the burden imposed on the secondary and tertiary healthcare services.
Primary healthcare is the first tier of the entire healthcare system and it is also the public's first contact point in the continual healthcare process. In the healthcare system, the family doctor bears the important responsibility of examining and assessing the patient's conditions and decides whether the patient can receive treatment at the primary healthcare level or needs further treatment. In other words, where necessary, the family doctor would refer the patient to an appropriate specialist for further examination and follow-up. In the document 4608 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 on the strategy for developing primary healthcare in Hong Kong released by the authorities in 2010, various measures were proposed to promote the development of primary healthcare, including: first, developing conceptual models and reference frameworks for primary care regarding specific diseases and population groups; second, setting up a Primary Care Directory and enhancing primary healthcare through promoting the concept of family doctor and the model of multi-disciplinary teams and finally, devising feasible service models to deliver primary care services in the community through appropriate pilot projects, including setting up community health centres and networks.
In recent years, the Hospital Authority (HA) has also been actively enhancing the training of family doctors. However, many family doctor clinics under the HA have to take in many chronic patients in recent years and their capacity of accepting patients with milder conditions have been reduced. In the same year (2010), the Primary Care Office under the Department of Health was established to support and co-ordinate the development of primary healthcare in Hong Kong and implement the strategies and initiatives of primary healthcare development.
I have listened attentively to the speeches made by Members earlier. Members have given various views on healthcare for the elderly and primary healthcare services which almost cover all the services in the entire healthcare system. Therefore, as Members have mentioned, we have to get to the root of the problem and try to understand why there is an imbalance in the public and the private healthcare systems.
Over the past 20 years, the Government has been paying attention to the sustainability of the public and the private healthcare systems. Since 1993, the Government has conducted five public consultation exercises on healthcare financing of the entire healthcare system. However, after the last two consultations conducted in 2008 and 2010, the Government has basically accepted the reality that the public do not support any proposals on comprehensive healthcare reform, including a mandatory social health insurance system or any proposals of health insurance funded by personal savings. The Government was only left with the choice of establishing certain mechanisms under the existing the twin-track system to adjust the imbalance in the public and the private healthcare sectors. Certainly, in the past few years, the Government of the last term had implemented some relevant measures, including determining the positioning of the public healthcare system. Whether consultations are LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4609 sought in the specialist clinic or the accident and emergency department, arrangement on a priority basis (that is, the triage arrangement) has been adopted, so that given the limited resources, patients with urgent and serious conditions will be ensured to receive consultations first and patients with less urgent conditions will have to wait for a longer period.
Furthermore, we have to balance the development of the public and the private healthcare systems carefully. In view of population ageing and an increasing demand for healthcare services, I have submitted the blueprint for the long-term overall development of public hospitals to the Panel on Health Services a few months ago. On the other hand, some private hospitals are also planning to expand their capacities. A Member asked earlier why invitations to tender had been issued in relation to only one of the four pieces of land reserved for private hospital development. There is a reason for that. We have to be careful in striking the balance because over-expansion in any of the systems within a short period of time will cause shortage or imbalance of manpower. Regarding private hospitals, we are maintaining close contacts with the existing private hospitals and organizations interested in developing new private hospitals to ensure a considerable increase in the number of private hospital beds in the next five or six years. Thirdly, through the Public-Private Partnership Programme, we can adjust the imbalance in the public and the private healthcare sectors. In this connection, the Government has launched the Cataract Surgeries Programme for some long-waiting cataract patients. The scope of this kind of programme will later be extended to cover chronic illnesses as mentioned by some Members, for example, hypertension and diabetes. We are also planning to implement the Public-Private Partnership Programme under the HA on a larger scale, so that more patients can seek consultations from private doctors through the Programme. Not only will these patients receive proper care, capacity can also be released from the public hospital system to take care of the more urgent cases and the more needy patients.
Chinese medicine is another important direction of development for the Government of this term. I agree with the view of some Members that providing more Chinese medicine services can relieve the burden on the existing public healthcare system. However, I have to point out that it is very difficult for the Government to meet all the demands of the public for Chinese medicine services through public hospitals. Therefore, there is a need for the Government to collaborate with non-governmental organizations (NGOs). Apart from the existing 17 out-patient Chinese medicine clinics, the Chinese medicine services 4610 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 provided by many NGOs can also help to meet the demands of the public in this area.
Voluntary health insurance is the last resort. Of course, some Members may not necessarily agree to the details. However, I would like to point out that it is another way to give the Government more power to adjust the imbalance in the public and the private healthcare sectors. Later, the Government will put forward a more specific option and consult the Legislative Council and the public. It is hoped that there will be more meaningful discussions on its details then, so that the final proposal, coupled with the adjustment mechanisms that I have mentioned earlier, can enable the Government to make adjustments to the twin-track system for public and private healthcare sectors so as to maintain a balance. If that can be achieved, we will be in a stronger position to release some resources to meet the various needs for improvement which Members have mentioned. I will now try my best to respond to the areas of improvement needed that Members have mentioned during the debate. However, with limited time, I may not be able to respond to every issue, particularly issues at the district level.
Regarding the Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme (HCVS), as Members have elaborated on it, I shall not repeat the history in detail. Although some Members have pointed out that the utilization rate of the HCVS is not high, at this stage, I hope we can understand that no eligibility screening is conducted for the HCVS and the vouchers are provided to every elderly person aged 70 or above. I do not consider the utilization rate of 66% too low because some elderly people can obtain the healthcare services required by other means and may not need to use the vouchers.
On improving the HCVS, I have noted that Members have made the following requests: first, lowering the age threshold of the applicants; second, increasing the voucher amount; and third, introducing another form of medical voucher to meet other needs, for example, the need for dental services. I can only say that the Government will seriously consider making continual improvements on the HCVS.
As far as elderly health centres are concerned, the Department of Health has actually streamlined the process and procedures for health assessment and utilized the existing manpower and other resources more flexibly to shorten the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4611 waiting time for the elderly to become members, so as to meet the needs of the waiting elderly. To even out the waiting times of the centres in different districts, information is also provided to the elderly so that they can apply for membership in another district. Certainly, Members would hope that we can meet the needs of all the elderly across the territory, but we can only make gradual improvements within our capacity with the resources provided. Regarding promotion of health for the elderly, some Members asked whether preventive measures can be implemented, for example, assisting the public, particularly the elderly in conducting physical check-ups. As we all know, the Government has launched a two-year pilot scheme in July this year to provide subsidies to about 10 000 elderly people aged 70 or above through nine non-profit-making NGOs to receive health assessment. The NGOs will accord priority to elderly people living alone, having not received health assessment before and hidden elderly whose health conditions have not been followed up by any healthcare providers to join the scheme. As at late November, more than 300 elderly people have received health assessment. If possible, we will consider allocating more resources to enhance the services provided by the elderly health centres as well as other services for physical check-ups for the elderly in the long run.
Dental care is another focus of Members' discussion. I have to say that according to the Government's policy, it is rather difficult to provide comprehensive dental services for the public. In this connection, let me point out that not many countries in the world can meet all the needs for dental services of the public merely with public resources because a large amount of resources will be needed. Certainly, certain countries can basically meet the needs for dental services via private services or private health insurance systems. However, we have to note that under the healthcare systems of these countries, the health insurance costs which everyone has to bear are also relatively high. Therefore, the Government can only focus on taking care of persons with special needs, that is, the elderly and particularly elderly people with financial difficulties, which we would probably agree. I have to make one other point which Members may not understand. At present, people aged 60 or above who are recipients of Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) will also be provided with dental grants to subsidize the costs of dental treatment. The therapies and services covered include extraction, tooth fillings and dentures. Furthermore, the Elderly Health Care Vouchers can also be used for dental services. In this connection, I have noted that Members have different views. 4612 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
In particular, a Member has told us that according to a survey, the elderly prefer healthcare vouchers with flexibility to those which can only be used for other services or dental services.
Earlier, the Government has launched a pilot project on outreach services for the elderly in residential care homes. I believe the project is more widely accepted, provides better services and is more successful. We will consider regularizing the project. In addition, Members are particularly concerned about the elderly who are not living in residential care homes. When the Community Care Fund (CCF) Elderly Dental Assistance Programme was launched earlier rather few elderly people can receive the services and there are two reasons for that. First, we have to get the consent of private dentists in the community to join the Programme. If they join the Programme, they will be bound by the Government's scale of charges. Therefore, they may not be willing to spend all their time on the Programme. The other reason is the question of eligibility. At present, the Programme requires the elderly to meet certain eligibility criteria, for example, they have to be users of outreach home care services schemes of the Social Welfare Department. Nevertheless, the CCF Task Force is actively considering further relaxing the eligibility criteria, so as to benefit more elderly people who have financial difficulties but are not receiving CSSA.
In relation to the services provided by the HA, particularly the general out-patient clinics, many Members have mentioned the rather long waiting time for consultations and follow-up appointments. With regard to making appointments, I have noted the difficulties in telephone booking mentioned by many Members. In this connection, I have been actively liaising with the HA in the hope to enhancing the telephone booking services. As far as the consultation time slots of the general out-patient clinics are concerned, many Members have expressed the view that we cannot completely meet the current needs of the public. However, as Members may be aware, in 2012-2013, the HA has already increased the consultation time slots in general out-patient clinics by about 300 000. The demands in this area have always been great and I am doubtful whether all of them can be met merely with the use of public resources. Nevertheless, the HA will further increase the consultation time slots by 85 000 this year. Therefore, as a next step, we may have to further divert the more stabilized chronic patients to the private healthcare system for continual follow-up services through the Public-Private Partnership Programme. In this way, we may be able to consider increasing the consultation time slots in the general out-patient clinics.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4613
Regarding psychogeriatric service, Members have mentioned certain needs which belong to two groups. The first group mainly concerns suicides committed by the elderly and the second relates to problems such as dementia. Given the limited time, I will only speak briefly on this issue. We have earlier established the Review Committee on Mental Health and recently an expert group on dementia has been set up under the Committee. The expert group is working intensively in the hope that it can submit a more comprehensive strategic proposal to the Government later, so that services for elderly persons with dementia can be gradually enhanced.
As far as Chinese medicine service is concerned, I would like to supplement on out-patient services which I have mentioned before. The Government of this term has set up the Chinese Medicine Development Committee (CMDC), and the Chinese Medicine Practice Sub-committee formed under the CMDC has taken the lead in conducting studies on developing a Chinese Medicine hospital in Hong Kong. It has submitted a proposal to establish a Chinese Medicine hospital in Hong Kong to the CMDC. The Government is actively considering the proposal and once a decision is made, we will release the information as soon as possible.
Regarding the possibility of expanding the scope of subsidized drugs, I have to point out that there will surely be a drug formulary in every country. While we have compiled the Drug Formulary, we also have an expert panel which will assess the efficacy of certain new drugs from time to time. If the drugs are assessed to be efficacious, they will be included in the Hospital Authority Drug Formulary or incorporated into the safety net of the Samaritan Fund.
On retaining the existing staff and engaging additional staff to meet the demands for healthcare services, some Members mentioned that we should engage additional staff. In this connection, I think Members may know that the HA will face a rather difficult manpower problem in the next few years. We may have to wait until around 2018 when the manpower problem of doctors can be gradually alleviated with the increase in student intake of the medical schools and the graduation of the students concerned. In the meantime, I will continue to collaborate with the HA in stepping up the engagement of medical practitioners from the private sector or doctors who have just retired as part-time staff. I will also urge the HA to offer more attractive terms and conditions in order to engage 4614 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 more part-time doctors to assist us in going through these few years of rather serious manpower shortage.
Some Members have expressed their views on women health. There are three Woman Health Centres and 10 Maternal and Child Health Centres under the family health service of the Department of Health which provide women health services to women aged 64 or below. In addition, 32 Maternal and Child Health Centres under the family health service of the Department of Health provide health promotion and disease prevention services to women aged 64 or below to meet the needs of women in different stages of their lives. Certainly, it will be rather difficult to meet all the demands from women for health and healthcare services merely with government resources. Therefore, we have to collaborate with NGOs and voluntary groups. Many women health services are indeed provided by NGOs.
Some Members have mentioned certain disease prevention measures such as vaccination programmes and cancer screening programmes. In fact, after I became the Secretary, I have been actively considering whether certain preventive measures such as vaccination programmes can be implemented. Certainly, the programmes concerned can only be implemented gradually with matching resources. For example, if we really introduce such programmes, the HA may have to take corresponding actions in relation to some of the cases after screening and this will increase its burden. Nevertheless, I remain positive and will consider whether we have the ability to do more in this area in the future. In particular, if we are talking about cancer screening for the entire population rather than for women only, I am actively considering whether we can introduce colorectal cancer-screening. In the beginning, the initiative may not be able to cover the entire population, but we will examine the feasibility of launching certain pilot schemes.
Members have also raised questions on whether carer subsidies can be introduced to enable the elderly to receive appropriate support in the community. According to the Labour and Welfare Bureau, the Commission for the Elderly has actually had preliminary discussions on the idea of introducing a "carer allowance for the elderly" and agreed to consider launching a pilot scheme on carer allowance for the elderly in pilot runs through the CCF. Apart from examining the feasibility of introducing a carer allowance for the elderly, the CCF Task Force under the Commission on Poverty will also consider whether a similar initiative can be introduced for the severely disabled persons.
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President, I believe I have to pause here in order to give an overall account. The various demands that Members have raised today, as I have said, really cover all of our healthcare services. Some of them have even gone beyond the scope of healthcare services. I strongly agree with the major principle underlying these demands that we should provide more primary healthcare services or preventive healthcare services in order to reduce the burden on the healthcare system in the long run. However, let us remind ourselves at the same time that as our resources are limited, we cannot provide primary healthcare services to 100% under the existing healthcare system. As a Member has pointed out, we are providing only 15% to 20% of the primary healthcare services. Therefore, if we can increase various healthcare services gradually, I believe I will respond very positively. However, if we are to approach the matter under the existing healthcare framework and healthcare funding model before there is a revolutionary total solution, I believe I may not be able to meet Members' demand of fulfilling all the healthcare needs of the public to 100%. In the long term, I will attach much importance to establishing a comprehensive adjustment mechanism, so that the twin-track system for public and private healthcare sectors can sustain. This will reduce the burden on the public healthcare system so that we can allocate more resources to meet the needs of services for the elderly persons, and the needy elderly in particular. That is the end of my response. Thank you, President.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr KWOK Ka-ki, please move your amendment to the motion now.
DR KWOK KA-KI (in Cantonese): President, I move that Miss Alice MAK's motion be amended.
Dr KWOK Ka-ki moved the following amendment: (Translation)
"To delete "," after "That" and substitute with "the Government released a population policy consultation document in late October this year projecting an increase of the percentage of the population of elderly people in the total population of Hong Kong from 14% in 2012 to 32% in 2041;"; to add "to 65" after "applying for HCVS"; to add "introduce 4616 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
comprehensive dental services, including scaling, filling and crowning, etc., and increase the number of service sessions and quotas in public dental clinics; at the same time, by making reference to the School Dental Care Service, to introduce an 'elderly dental care service' to provide elderly people with dental examination and scaling services once a year, so as to assist elderly people in handling their oral health problems as early as possible; and, to" after "public dental services,"; to delete "at the same time" after "elderly health centres," and substitute with "and set up more elderly health centres in various districts based on their elderly population ratios, so as to increase service quotas and shorten the waiting time for physical check-ups; and at the same time to"; to delete "and" after "hospital services;"; and to add "; (6) to increase resources for the Hospital Authority's psychiatric services for the early identification, treatment and support of elderly people with dementia, and recruit more community psychiatric nurses, medical social workers and other allied health staff, so as to alleviate the existing problem of insufficient psychiatric services in the long run; (7) to strengthen the protection for women health, including increasing the number of woman health centres with the target of setting up such centres in all the 18 districts of Hong Kong; and at the same time, to study the provision of subsidy for women to receive prophylactic vaccines to prevent cervical cancer; (8) to improve the arrangement for telephone appointment of public out-patient services by introducing a telephone system to be answered by live operators, so as to avoid elderly people's failure to complete appointment booking due to difficulties in following pre-recorded phone keying procedure; and (9) to resolve the problems of uneven distribution of resources and insufficient manpower faced by the clusters under the Hospital Authority, so as to shorten the waiting time for specialist out-patient services, including geriatrics, psychogeriatrics and ophthalmology, etc., which are in demand by a relatively large number of elderly people" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the amendment, moved by Dr KWOK Ka-ki to Miss Alice MAK's motion, be passed.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4617
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the amendment passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Albert HO, as Dr KWOK Ka-ki's amendment has been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): President, I move that Miss Alice MAK's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki be further amended by my revised amendment.
Mr Albert HO moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki: (Translation)
"To add "; (10) to increase the HCVS rate to no less than $1,500 a year; (11) to subsidize non-profit-making organizations to expand community elderly dental services; (12) to expand the scope of Chinese medicine treatment to cover acupuncture services for Comprehensive Social Security Assistance recipients, train local Chinese medicine talents on a priority basis and improve their entry remuneration; (13) to provide half-fee concessions to all elderly people using public healthcare services, so as to prevent elderly people from delaying disease treatment due to financial considerations; and (14) to set up an 'old age population reserve fund' to ensure that when Hong Kong becomes an ageing society, its public expenditure is sufficient to maintain various elderly welfare 4618 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
benefits and services, thereby implementing the Declaration of Alma-Ata on primary healthcare proclaimed by the World Health Organization in 1978" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Mr Albert HO's amendment to Miss Alice MAK's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(Members raised their hands)
Mr IP Kwok-him rose to claim a division.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr IP Kwok-him has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for five minutes.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Functional Constituencies:
Mr Albert HO, Mr James TO, Mr Tommy CHEUNG, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr Vincent FANG, Prof Joseph LEE, Dr LAM Tai-fai, Dr LEUNG Ka-lau, Mr LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4619
CHEUNG Kwok-che, Mr Frankie YICK, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr IP Kin-yuen, Mr POON Siu-ping, Mr TANG Ka-piu and Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan voted for the amendment.
Mr CHAN Kin-por voted against the amendment.
Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr WONG Ting-kwong, Ms Starry LEE, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr Steven HO, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Mr Christopher CHEUNG, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr Tony TSE abstained.
Geographical Constituencies:
Mr LEE Cheuk-yan, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Ms Emily LAU, Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Mr Ronny TONG, Ms Cyd HO, Mr WONG Kwok-kin, Mr Albert CHAN, Ms Claudia MO, Mr James TIEN, Mr Gary FAN, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Miss Alice MAK, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, Mr SIN Chung-kai and Dr Helena WONG voted for the amendment.
Mr TAM Yiu-chung, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mr Michael TIEN, Mr CHAN Han-pan, Mr LEUNG Che-cheung and Mr Christopher CHUNG abstained.
THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 28 were present, 17 were in favour of the amendment, one against it and 10 abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 26 were present, 18 were in favour of the amendment and seven abstained. Since the question was agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the amendment was passed.
4620 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
MR RONNY TONG (in Cantonese): President, I move that in the event of further divisions being claimed in respect of the motion on "Stepping up the promotion of primary healthcare development and improving healthcare services for elderly people" or any amendment thereto, this Council do proceed to each of such divisions immediately after the division bell has been rung for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr Ronny TONG be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the motion passed.
I order that in the event of further divisions being claimed in respect of the motion on "Stepping up the promotion of primary healthcare development and improving healthcare services for elderly people" or any amendment thereto, this Council do proceed to each of such divisions immediately after the division bell has been rung for one minute.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4621
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members have been informed that as Mr Albert HO's amendment was passed, Mr Steven HO has withdrawn his amendment.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Priscilla LEUNG, as the amendments of Dr KWOK Ka-ki and Mr Albert HO have been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I move that Miss Alice MAK's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki and Mr Albert HO be further amended by my revised amendment.
President, the biggest difference between my revised amendment and the original should be part (1) in which I proposed that the Government consider increasing the Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme rate for elderly people aged 70 or above to $2,000 per person per year. After the motion has been amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki and Mr Albert HO, it is now proposed that elderly people aged 65 or above can get vouchers amounting to $1,500 per year. Other amendments have also made small changes to the preamble of the original amendment. I think that although there are differences between those amendments and the corresponding parts in my original amendment, their directions are acceptable. Hence, I hope that Members will support my revised amendment.
Dr Priscilla LEUNG moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki and Mr Albert HO: (Translation)
"To add "; (15) to relax the assessment criteria of the financial test for the Samaritan Fund, and allocate additional resources for the Hospital Authority Drug Formulary to expand the coverage of drugs subsidy to include certain expensive blood pressure drugs, target therapy drugs for treating cancers and specific drugs for treating dementia, etc., so as to benefit more elderly people; (16) to study the introduction of tax concessions for encouraging children to pay for medical insurance contributions for their parents, so as to alleviate the burden on public healthcare expenditure; (17) to study the provision of mobile dental services for elderly people living in remote districts; and (18) to review 4622 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
the effectiveness of the Pilot Scheme on Community Care Service Voucher for the Elderly" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Dr Priscilla LEUNG's amendment to Miss Alice MAK's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki and Mr Albert HO be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the amendment passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Fernando CHEUNG, as the amendments of Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr Albert HO and Dr Priscilla LEUNG have been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
DR FERNANDO CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I move that Miss Alice MAK's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr Albert HO and Dr Priscilla LEUNG be further amended by my revised amendment.
My original amendment is now only left with points (1) and (7), that is, to significantly increase the quotas of general out-patient services and increase subsidies for healthcare services, so as to address the existing manpower shortage LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4623 problems for accident and emergency department services, specialist and general out-patient services. These proposals should not arouse any controversy.
Thank you, President.
Dr Fernando CHEUNG moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr Albert HO and Dr Priscilla LEUNG: (Translation)
"To add "; (19) to significantly increase the quotas of general out-patient services to meet demand; and (20) to significantly increase subsidies for healthcare services, so as to alleviate the existing problems of long waiting time for accident and emergency department services, specialist and general out-patient services as well as various surgical operations, short consultation time, insufficient hospital beds and manpower shortage, etc." immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Dr Fernando CHEUNG's amendment to Miss Alice MAK's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr Albert HO and Dr Priscilla LEUNG be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the amendment passed.
4624 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LEUNG Ka-lau, as the amendments of Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr Albert HO, Dr Priscilla LEUNG and Dr Fernando CHEUNG have been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
DR LEUNG KA-LAU (in Cantonese): President, I move that Miss Alice MAK's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr Albert HO, Dr Priscilla LEUNG and Dr Fernando CHEUNG be further amended by my revised amendment.
Dr LEUNG Ka-lau moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr Albert HO, Dr Priscilla LEUNG and Dr Fernando CHEUNG: (Translation)
"To add "; and (21) to restructure the out-patient services of the Hospital Authority and enhance the role of general out-patient, family medicine clinic and integrated specialist out-patient as the 'gatekeeper', so as to reduce the number of specialist out-patient attendances and shorten the waiting time" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Dr LEUNG Ka-lau's amendment to Miss Alice MAK's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr Albert HO, Dr Priscilla LEUNG and Dr Fernando CHEUNG be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4625 functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the amendment passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Frankie YICK, as the amendments of Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr Albert HO, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Dr Fernando CHEUNG and Dr LEUNG Ka-lau have been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
MR FRANKIE YICK (in Cantonese): President, I move that Miss Alice MAK's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr Albert HO, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Dr Fernando CHEUNG and Dr LEUNG Ka-lau be further amended by my revised amendment.
President, the revised amendment that I have moved does not differ from the main contents of my original amendment. As the basic contents of my original amendment have been retained, I shall not repeat them in detail. I hereby urge Members to support my revised amendment. Thank you.
Mr Frankie YICK moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr Albert HO, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Dr Fernando CHEUNG and Dr LEUNG Ka-lau: (Translation)
"To add "; (22) to construct a Chinese medicine hospital on the former campus site of the Hong Kong Institute of Vocational Education (Lee Wai Lee); and (23) to study the provision of appropriate assistance to encourage all people to undergo physical check-up, with a view to achieving the targets of upgrading public health and lessening health care expenditure in the long run" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Mr Frankie YICK's amendment to Miss Alice MAK's motion as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr Albert HO, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Dr Fernando CHEUNG and Dr LEUNG Ka-lau be passed.
4626 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the amendment passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss Alice MAK, you may now reply and you have one minute 51 seconds.
MISS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): President, first of all, I would like to thank the many Members who have supported this motion. Second, as the Secretary said earlier that public primary healthcare services only account for about 10% of the primary healthcare services of Hong Kong, I would like to ask if primary healthcare services mentioned by him referred to the general out-patient services or the services provided by the entire primary healthcare system? As pointed out by Prof Joseph LEE, we are not only referring to the general out-patient services, but services provided by medical professionals, such as occupational therapists, physiotherapists and dieticians as well as all allied health personnel. In the Secretary's earlier reply, little was mentioned in response to the proposal of setting up a community health centre in each of the 18 districts, but that is actually essential in providing primary healthcare services through the public healthcare system. However, the Secretary has not answered when the plan of setting up a community health centre in each of the 18 districts will be implemented.
In addition, I think all of us have heard about dental services, which is very important. Secretary, there is an urgent need to enhance the quality of dental LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 4627 services. It is my hope that the Secretary can really do something to promote the dental health of the elderly in Hong Kong in this term of Government, be it introducing dental care voucher or increasing the rate of the Elderly Health Care Voucher Scheme, so that the elderly can get dental consultations or receive better public dental services. The dental services of Hong Kong has to be improved and the disgrace in this area should not be allowed to continue. When compared with other countries, the standard attained by Hong Kong is really disgraceful. Therefore, I hope that the Secretary can face the problems which we have raised squarely, particularly those on the development of the dental healthcare system and the entire primary healthcare system.
President, I so submit. Thank you.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Miss Alice MAK, as amended by Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr Albert HO, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, Dr LEUNG Ka-lau and Mr Frankie YICK, be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raised their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the motion as amended passed.
4628 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
NEXT MEETING
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now adjourn the Council until 11 am on Wednesday, 18 December 2013.
Adjourned accordingly at two minutes to Eleven o'clock.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013 A1
Appendix I
WRITTEN ANSWER
Written answer by the Secretary for Security to Mr CHAN Chi-chuen's supplementary question to Question 2
As regards whether there are more than 100 chairs of prices ranged between $8,000 and $10,000 in the 999 reporting centres of the Hong Kong Police Force (police) and the unit prices of the concerned chairs, there are a total of 239 chairs for use by Police Communications Officers in the 999 reporting centres of the police. Among the 239 chairs, the unit price of 234 chairs is $4,300 and that of the remaining five is $6,000.
A2 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 11 December 2013
Appendix II
WRITTEN ANSWER
Written answer by the Secretary for Food and Health to Mr Paul TSE's supplementary question to Question 6
As regards the criteria laid down by the Fish Marketing Organization (FMO) for supplying organic fish to local organic product sales outlets, as advised by the Agriculture, Fisheries and Conservation Department (AFCD), the sale of organic fish is subject to relatively stringent requirements. To prevent cross contamination, the FMO requests the concerned sales outlets to clearly separate the sale of organic fish from conventional cultured fish. The FMO will not refuse the supply of organic fish to any sales outlets, if they are able to fully comply with the requirements for selling organic fish and accept the wholesale price of organic fish.