Thursday Volume 530 30 June 2011 No. 180

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 30 June 2011

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Mrs Spelman: My hon. Friend is right, and I remember House of Commons that extremely good initiative. We want to encourage not only parliamentarians but all individuals, and schools Thursday 30 June 2011 and places of work, to plant more trees. We aim to plant 1 million new trees within this parliamentary Session. I will certainly look at the parliamentary scheme as an The House met at half-past Ten o’clock opportunity to remind colleagues how important it is that we do our bit. PRAYERS Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I supported John Major’s initiative, which was very good, [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] and sponsored two trees in memory of my parents. If we care about our forests and woods, we must ensure that the next generation visits, enjoys and learns about them. The number of out-of-school visits is collapsing Oral Answers to Questions and we must do something about it. Will the Secretary of State join the initiative of the John Clare Trust, which I chair, in launching the “Every child’s right to ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS the countryside” campaign, and give it a bit of support? Mrs Spelman: The hon. Gentleman is right to say The Secretary of State was asked— that the opportunity for our children to learn in nature Forestry is incredibly important, as we highlight in the natural environment White Paper, in which we have given an 1. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): undertaking to remove the barriers to outdoor learning. What recent discussions she has had with the chair of The Department for Education wholly supports that. the independent panel on forestry on the future of the Biodiversity public forest estate. [62873] 2. Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): What The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and recent discussions she has had on the delivery of her Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): First, I am sure Department’s biodiversity strategy. [62875] that the House would like to join me in wishing the Bishop of Liverpool, who chairs the independent panel, 4. Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): What recent a speedy recovery from his recent operation. As the discussions she has had on the delivery of her panel is independent, it is important that its members, Department’s biodiversity strategy. [62877] including the chair, enjoy complete freedom to produce their report, the scope of which extends beyond the The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and public forest estate to include the future of all England’s Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): My Department forests. has regular discussions with interested parties on the delivery of our biodiversity strategy. The Government’s Roberta Blackman-Woods: First, may I associate myself vision for the natural environment, including biodiversity, with the right hon. Lady’s comments about James Jones, is set out in the natural environment White Paper, the Bishop of Liverpool? She will be aware that at least first in 20 years. The UK also endorsed the EU biodiversity some members of the independent panel think that strategy last week. We will shortly publish a new biodiversity more of our woodlands should be in public ownership, strategy for England, which will build on this. not less, so will she give the House a commitment not to sell off any more publicly owned forests and woodland, Christopher Pincher: I welcome my right hon. Friend’s and instead to seek to work with partners to find ways commitment to biodiversity, particularly the idea of of adding to it? biodiversity offsetting set out in the White Paper, but will she confirm that the rules on offsetting that she will Mrs Spelman: As I have said, the panel is independent, put in place will keep it local, so that any development and I have had no separate conversations with its members affecting biodiversity in Tamworth must be offset in to hear the views that the hon. Lady has expressed. The Tamworth, not in some other part of the country? important thing is to wait for the panel to report to us with its recommendations. In the interim, Ministers Mrs Spelman: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have made it absolutely clear that there will be no have given an undertaking in the natural environment further sale of the public forest estate. White Paper that biodiversity offsetting should be in the local area, because local communities need to feel the Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): Does benefit if they are to take the development. At present it the Secretary of State recall that in the 1990s John is section 106 agreements that should deliver on biodiversity Major, as Prime Minister, launched an initiative in the offsetting, but what happens is often so far removed national forest to develop a parliamentary area, where from the community that the connection is not made. MPs could sponsor a tree? The aim of that voluntary activity was to encourage biodiversity and help the Chris Skidmore: What plans does the Secretary of forest. Could the independent panel consider such initiatives, State have to include green belt land in the biodiversity because I am sure that throughout the country there are strategy, to ensure that it is protected for generations to groups of individuals who would like to do their bit? come? 1085 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 1086

Mrs Spelman: My hon. Friend is speaking to a Member Richard Benyon: I can give the hon. Lady that assurance. of Parliament whose constituency is entirely in the That is one of the attractions of this scheme, and is why green belt, so I can give him a strong assurance about it works well in other areas. We want to dovetail it into the protection of the green belt. The Department for our planning system because it offers clarity. She is right Communities and Local Government has given an to point out that section 106 negotiations can sometimes undertaking on that, which will be repeated in the be a bit of a horse-trading operation and can result, in national planning policy framework. DEFRA’s strategy certain circumstances, in token biodiversity protection of course includes the protection of the green belt, but activities. This scheme offers a clear, understandable, even within the green belt, communities will have the auditable, accountable system. We are delighted by the opportunity to designate green areas to provide extra response from a number of local authorities through protection and enhance biodiversity. the consultation process. More are now coming forward since the natural environment White Paper was published, Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): The wildlife crime as are developers. I hope that in the coming months we unit plays an important part in protecting endangered will be able to give her the assurance that she needs. species and preventing the trade in endangered species. How will the Secretary of State ensure that that continues, Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): given that its budget is guaranteed for only two years? There is, of course, an excellent pilot project that will bring enormous biodiversity benefits at Pickering, in the form of the slow-the-flow flood defence scheme. Mrs Spelman: We have said this on a previous occasion, Will the Minister assure me that the guidance regulations but it is worth repeating because it is important. We under the Reservoirs Act 1975, which are preventing have secured the funding for the wildlife crime unit. It is that project from going ahead, will be swept away? an important part of combating the threat to endangered species from those who seek to do them damage. Richard Benyon: I have just won my bet that my hon. Friend would raise that issue, and she is entirely right to Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Has the Secretary do so. I share her concerns about the application of the of State seen the concerns of the Institute of Ecology Reservoirs Act and its implications for Pickering. My and Environmental Management, based on a survey of right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has visited the businesses, that although the aims of the biodiversity site. We want to do all we can to ensure that the scheme strategy are laudable, there may be a skills shortage so goes ahead, because we think that it is a good example that we cannot reach the required level by 2020? What of how biodiversity, slowing up water, and flood protection steps will she take to assess the skills required and build can fit together in many areas. We want her constituents the skills base to achieve the objectives? to know that the Government will look into any means possible to ensure that such schemes go ahead. Mrs Spelman: I am happy to share with the House the fact that I co-chair the green economy council, Pig Industry where businesses from all sectors of the economy come together on a regular basis to discuss with us how to green the economy. As part of that, we have a focus on 5. Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): improving green skills, precisely to ensure that we have What recent discussions she has had with people with the experience and training to deliver on representatives of supermarket retail chains on the our important commitments to protect and enhance effects of pricing on the pig industry. [62878] biodiversity while growing the economy. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I discussed 3. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Whether the supply chain and the competitiveness of all those she plans to introduce pilot projects to evaluate involved at the review meeting of the pigmeat supply biodiversity offsets. [62876] chain taskforce in February. The taskforce meeting included the major retailers and pigmeat processors and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for producers. However, for competition reasons, Ministers Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): cannot discuss prices directly with retailers. In the natural environment White Paper, we announced that we will establish a voluntary approach to biodiversity Natascha Engel: I thank the Minister for that answer. offsetting and test it in a number of pilot areas. We want When will the supermarket ombudsman be in place, local authorities to express an interest in taking part in and will he have the power to ensure that supermarkets the pilot, and to hear from developers, conservation pay a fair price for British pork? and community groups and others who want to test offsetting. Mr Paice: As the hon. Lady knows, the Government have published the draft Bill on the supermarket code Kerry McCarthy: In an earlier reply the Secretary of adjudicator, and we hope that the real legislation will State referred to section 106 agreements. In Bristol come forward very soon. The purpose of the adjudicator, there has been a scandalous failure to enforce section 106 as recommended by the Competition Commission, is to agreements, and hundreds of thousands of pounds enforce the code, which has been in place since February have not been spent on the projects they should have 2010. He or she will not be able to intervene directly in been spent on. When the Minister evaluates the pilots, prices or margins, but will intervene in issues to do with will he ensure that new biodiversity schemes are actually fair competition, and fair terms and conditions for realised? suppliers. 1087 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 1088

Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Pig production Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): It is important standards and animal welfare standards in general are not only to examine food prices but to ensure that far higher in Britain than they are throughout most of people are buying the right product. There are likely to the rest of the world, yet the consumer in the British be a lot of low-standard eggs coming into Britain, supermarket has no way of knowing whether they are because we will have met the standards for the new buying British bacon or pork or whether it is from enriched cages by January but a lot of Europe will not. somewhere completely different. How far have the EU What are the Government doing to prevent such eggs discussions on allowing country of origin labelling from coming into Britain? progressed? We want to see a Union Jack on British pigmeat, so that we can buy it in the supermarket. Mrs Spelman: As I have told the House before, I was the first among the EU Agriculture Ministers to spell Mr Speaker: With reference to pricing, Minister. out how important it is that all egg producers comply with the changes in the law that will apply from 1 January. Mr Paice: My hon. Friend is right. However, at the I am delighted to be able to inform my hon. Friend that moment the Union Jack could appear on a product it will not be legal to market eggs in this country that from a pig that was not reared in Britain, and that needs have not been produced in enriched cages. to be stopped. I can tell him that the whole meat industry has agreed a voluntary code on country of Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): We are all aware that origin labelling, and we carried out a benchmarking external factors push up food prices, but another problem exercise survey in April, against which we can judge is the imbalance between the supermarkets and the progress. The EU food information regulations are making producer, which is passed on to the customer. We have fast progress. It will be a little while yet, but we believe just had an unsatisfactory response about the adjudicator. that within them there will be mandatory country of What we want is a proactive ombudsman with real origin labelling for fresh meat. teeth, so that consumers and producers get a fair price. Food Prices Mrs Spelman: That is a bit rich coming from a representative of a party that was in government for 6. Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): What steps 13 years and had the opportunity to introduce such an she is taking in response to recent trends in food prices. ombudsman, which is something that this Government [62879] are now setting about doing. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): With permission, Livestock Provenance Mr Speaker, I will answer this question with Question 10. [Interruption.] I think that they are grouped. 7. Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): What estimate she has made of the proportion of livestock Mr Speaker: I think not. If I have missed something slaughtered in England that was reared in the UK in and the Secretary of State wishes to explain it I will be the last year for which figures are available. [62880] obliged, but I think not. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Mrs Spelman: Sorry, Mr Speaker. It has been withdrawn, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): The vast I think. majority of livestock slaughtered in England will have The Government are committed to promoting better been reared in the United Kingdom. A small number, functioning of agricultural markets to help mitigate including some spent hens, are from the Republic of future price spikes. Last week I attended the G20 Agriculture Ireland, and a very small number will be imported from Ministers meeting—the first time that Agriculture Ministers mainland Europe for slaughter rather than for breeding have been convoked under the G20. We unanimously purposes. agreed on measures to increase food production sustainably and provide better transparency and governance in Andrew Rosindell: I thank the Minister for his response. order to regulate supply and demand. I wish to see The transport of livestock over long distances can cause further liberalisation of markets, which as the Government’s unnecessary suffering and distress. Does he agree that foresight report states, will help dampen price volatility. where possible the slaughter of animals should be done locally, to avoid that distress and long transportation? Graeme Morrice: The United Nations and the OECD recently predicted that global food prices could rise by Mr Paice: I think that most people entirely agree with as much as 30% in the next decade. What action is the my hon. Friend, and certainly I do. We want to encourage Secretary of State taking to tackle commodity speculation the slaughtering of animals locally wherever possible. and rising food prices? Not only is it good for welfare reasons, it is good for local employment and fits in with local food, which we Mrs Spelman: There is no conclusive evidence that all want to encourage. speculation is the principal cause of price volatility. Farmers would be the first to explain that they speculate—or Inland Waterways hedge—in order to even out the highs and lows in their prices. The fundamental problem in world markets is that of tight supply and demand, so the most important 8. Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): thing we can do is increase food production sustainably. What steps she is taking to maximise the potential of That is a priority for my Department. rivers and inland waterways. [62881] 1089 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 1090

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the House what estimate he has made of the extra time Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): and money this new regulatory burden will place on In April 2012, the Government plan to move British farm businesses? Waterways from the public sector to civil society, through the creation of a new waterways charity. This will give Mr Paice: I have rarely heard such nonsense. The waterways users and the communities that live alongside whole purpose of abolishing the Agricultural Wages them greater involvement in how waterways are managed, Board is to reduce regulation, not to increase it. The leading to a range of enhanced public benefits. It will change has been sought by the industry, which does not also place the waterways on a more sustainable footing, see it as regulatory, so what right the hon. Lady has to as the charity will have access to new sources of commercial come and tell us that it will increase regulation I really and charitable income. do not know.

Mary Macleod: We have more than 2,000 miles of Mary Creagh: The Agricultural Wages Board guarantees rivers and inland waterways, including the Grand Union farm workers other benefits, such as bereavement pay canal in Brentford in my constituency. Does my hon. and sick pay. Without it, their sick pay will fall from Friend agree that the announcement of the proposed roughly £180 a week for a grade 1 worker to the statutory merger between the Waterways Trust and the new waterways minimum of £81.60 a week. The AWB also guarantees charity will provide a good opportunity to boost the children under 16 who work on farms £2.98 an hour. value of those national assets? The minimum wage does not cover children under 16, so when the AWB is abolished children on farms will have no wage protection. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman Richard Benyon: I am delighted to welcome the has considered the impact of the change on the under-16s. announcement of the merger that my hon. Friend describes. Can he tell the House what protections he will put in It will allow the cultural and heritage purposes of the place to protect child workers from exploitation? new waterways charity to be fundamentally linked with all the other benefits arising from creating the new Mr Paice: There are many other regulations that deal entity. The three museums that the waterways charity with young people in employment across the whole of now owns will become part of the new charity, and will industry. The reality is that the board has been in be a fantastic resource for it in future. existence for 60 years and it is now well past its sell-by date. The industry has asked for its abolition and, as the Regulation Public Bodies Bill stands, we will have to consult on that. The hon. Lady will be able to make her views 9. Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): What progress she known at that point—but I must emphasise that the has made in reducing the burden of regulation on contracts of employment of everyone currently employed farmers; and if she will make a statement. [62884] in the industry will remain in existence. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Looking The Minister of State, Department for Environment, to future regulation, if badger control is going to be Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): In May I part of DEFRA’s bovine TB eradication programme, welcomed the report of the independent farming regulation will the Minister confirm that any regulations attached taskforce, which has made more than 200 recommendations to licences will be proportionate and practical? to reduce the regulatory burden on farmers without lowering our standards. The Government are now carefully Mr Paice: I think my hon. Friend knows that we have considering those recommendations. not made any announcement about badger control yet. I hope that the conclusions of our consultation will be Sajid Javid: Farmers in my constituency and nationwide announced fairly soon, along with a wider package of would welcome the efforts that the Government are measures to combat TB. Whatever steps we take will taking to reduce regulation. Can the Minister give the clearly need to balance the regulations that have to be in House an idea of the time scale for implementing those place for disease control with minimising their burden recommendations, and say whether any might be taken and using risk assessment as the basis for applying forward immediately? them. Recycling Mr Paice: Perhaps my hon. Friend will accept tomorrow as being close enough to immediately. I can tell him that 10. Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): What as of tomorrow, dairy farmers who are covered as her policy is on future levels of recycling of domestic members of the assured dairy scheme will find their and commercial waste. [62885] state inspections going down to once every 10 years, as they are regularly inspected as part of the scheme to The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and which they belong. Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): I commend the right hon. Lady for her long-standing commitment to Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): In two weeks’ time this issue. Our waste review set out our ambition to this House will debate the Public Bodies Bill, which move from a throwaway society to a zero-waste economy. abolishes the Agricultural Wages Board, which sets pay This includes maximising the recycling of waste that and conditions for 150,000 farm workers in England cannot be prevented or reused from households and and Wales. If the AWB is abolished, every farmer in the businesses. We will work with local authorities and the country will become responsible for negotiating pay waste management industry to make it easier for everyone and conditions with their workers. Can the Minister tell to recycle, whether at home, at work or on the go. 1091 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 1092

Joan Ruddock: Just a year ago the Secretary of State The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for said of recycling: Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): “We need to go faster and we need to go further.” As UK Fisheries Minister, I have had discussions with a range of people about common fisheries policy reform. So is it the Secretary of State for Communities and These include the EU Commission, Members of the Local Government who has crushed her ambition and European Parliament and other member states. I continue vetoed a target for recycling in this country? Having to encourage fellow Ministers to support radical reform, won the battle over fortnightly bin collections, why does most recently during this week’s Fisheries Council. I she not now adopt Friends of the Earth’s target of will continue to press our case for reform as negotiations halving black sack waste by 2020, thus reducing costs develop over the next year. and creating jobs? Tom Greatrex: I am grateful for the Minister’s response. Mrs Spelman: I support the scale of the ambition of I am aware that the mackerel quota was discussed at the Friends of the Earth’s target, and we are of course meeting earlier this week. Is the Minister aware of the bound by an EU target to recycle 50% of household widespread exasperation at the fact that in her comments refuse, but if targets are too specific they can be distorting, afterwards, the Commissioner confirmed that no action driving councils to meet centrally imposed indicators would even begin to be taken until at least October—a instead of doing what is best for their local circumstances. full 18 months after the arbitrary action that caused the A good example of that was the landfill allowance problem in the first place? There is now very real trading scheme, which led to the anomaly of disincentivising concern that this will have an impact not just on the the recycling of business waste. sustainability of stocks but on the livelihood of fishing fleets. Will the hon. Gentleman urge his European Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): My right hon. partners to take action more quickly? Friend might be aware of the problem of heavily soiled films used on farms being exported to China as clean Richard Benyon: The hon. Gentleman is right to raise waste, rather than being put into the recycling process this matter; it is our most pressing problem, and our in this country. What action can she take to stop these most valuable stock is at risk of crashing—probably illegal exports? within 18 months to two years—if the gross overfishing announced by the Faroes and Iceland goes ahead. I Mrs Spelman: If it is illegal, it is important that we moved the issue forward at this week’s meeting by take legal sanctions to prevent it. Whenever possible, we seeking to raise it to a political level. It has been dealt want to see our own waste industry growing. At present with by the Commission and by officials, but I believe it it is projected to grow at 4% per annum, and there is no will take Ministers from the countries concerned to lack of ambition in the industry to deal more effectively look each other in the eye and sit round a table, perhaps with all forms of waste that we can treat in this country. with an independent chairman, to negotiate. I do not care where we meet, but we have got to move this forward quickly. That is the proposal I made at the Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): The lack of ambition meeting, and I have followed it up with a letter. We belongs entirely to the Secretary of State. The Sunday made a number of other suggestions that highlight the Times called the Government’s waste review a “sloppy, urgency of this problem. flyblown mess” hamstrung by Tory dogma. The Welsh Government have adopted a 70% recycling rate, which Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I would be grateful if will create 50,000 new jobs by 2025, yet in England this the Minister were prepared to meet a delegation of Government have abandoned recycling targets. Will the fishermen from my constituency who are concerned Secretary of State tell the House why she has scrapped about the Government’s proposals for the inshore fishery, recycling targets for England? Will she also publish an as the consultation on those closes today. They are assessment of how many English jobs will not now be particularly concerned about what I suspect will be the created, and how much investment in the waste industry unintended consequences that will be detrimental to will not now be made, as a result of her decision? this low-impact and sustainable sector.

Mrs Spelman: That is a gross distortion of our waste Richard Benyon: I would be delighted to meet review. The hon. Gentleman should not rely on newspapers representatives of the hon. Gentleman’s local fishing to give him a guide to what is in it; he should take the community. The consultation on the under-10-metre trouble to read the real thing. Have I not just said that sector, which, as he says, closes today, sought to find a we expect the waste industry to grow by 4% per annum? solution to the level of perceived unfairness—I acknowledge We have not scrapped recycling targets; we are committed it—that applies to this sector. I want to find a way to EU targets for recycling. In addition, we have more forward that gives this sector more fishing opportunities ambition with regard to landfill, which exceeds the and allows the local communities to invest in their local ambition of the previous Government and involves fleets, because we understand the social implications of proposals not to bury metal and wood in landfill. the decline of the fishing industry in many places. I am not in the business of making life more difficult for any Fisheries particular sector, and I want to ensure that this consultation feeds on the many enthusiasms we have encountered, while also setting to rest many of the fears expressed. 11. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op): What recent discussions she has had with Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The European her EU counterparts on reform of the common Commission is due to publish next month the new fisheries Policy. [62886] legislative text on the reform of the common fisheries 1093 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 1094 policy. The best thing, of course, would be to abolish Dogs that dreadful policy altogether, but short of that, what specific actions have the Government urged on the 13. Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): Commission on regionalisation of the policy? What steps she plans to take to reduce the incidence of antisocial behaviour by dogs and their owners. [62889] Richard Benyon: The right hon. Gentleman is right; we expect the paper to be published on 13 July and we The Minister of State, Department for Environment, will debate it at the next Council meeting on 19 July. We Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): Defra is pushed very hard for regionalisation. He is absolutely working closely with the Home Office to deal with the right to say that the system is ludicrous. One of the issue of antisocial behaviour on the part of dogs and many failures of the common fisheries policy is that their owners. As I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, factors such as net sizes are decided in Brussels, whereas on 7 February the Home Office issued a consultation they should be decided at least on a sea basin basis, if paper on a new, streamlined framework of measures to not at member state level. We are still pushing hard for tackle antisocial behaviour. Subject to consultation, the regionalisation. There are counter-arguments about the new tools will replace 18 of the formal powers that are legality and what other countries want, but I can assure currently available, including those applicable to dogs. the right hon. Gentleman that we are really pushing for The consultation ended on 17 May, and the responses this, as we believe it to be an important way forward. are being analysed.

Jim Fitzpatrick: It is reassuring to hear that discussions Bovine TB are taking place with the Home Office. Members of the all-party associate parliamentary group for animal welfare met representatives of the Association of Chief Police 12. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): Officers last week, and they presented their evidence to What recent assessment she has made of the spread of the Department shortly afterwards. Will the Minister bovine tuberculosis in wildlife in the West meet members of the all-party group to discuss ACPO’s Worcestershire constituency; and if she will make a information and the concerns it raised with the Department? statement. [62887] Mr Paice: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am always The Minister of State, Department for Environment, happy to meet him and, indeed, any other colleagues. Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): The most As he also knows, the issue of dogs is the responsibility recent information we have is from the randomised of my noble Friend, Lord Henley. I will pass his request badger-culling trial, in which badgers were culled annually on to my noble Friend, but I assure him that if he in an area west of Malvern between 2002 and 2005. The cannot deal with it, I will do so. average TB prevalence in badgers culled in that area Wild Animals in Circuses was then 28%. We also know that TB in cattle is linked to TB in wildlife. I can tell my hon. Friend that there was an increase in the number of new herds disclosed 14. Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): What her policy with TB in Hereford and Worcester in 2010 compared is on legislation to prohibit the use of wild animals in with 2009, and a corresponding increase in herd incidence circuses. [62890] over the same period. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): The Government Harriett Baldwin: Wildlife in my constituency is suffering will listen to the views of the House of Commons, and from tuberculosis, a lingering death. Cattle are being are sympathetic to the motion for a ban. We are taking slaughtered, and farmers are lying awake at night worried active steps towards finding a way in which to introduce that their herd might be next. Will the Minister update a ban and clearing the obstacles that prevent us from us on what further steps the Government could take to doing so now. In the meantime we have begun, as a bring the disease under control? matter of urgency, to develop a tough licensing regime which will stop circuses from using wild animals if they Mr Paice: My hon. Friend is right to stress the need do not provide the appropriate welfare standards. for further policies to control TB. As I said earlier, we will make announcements fairly soon—before the House Mr Spellar: As the Minister acknowledges, the House rises, we hope—on our proposals regarding badgers, made a clear decision to ban wild animals in circuses. and about wider cattle-to-cattle measures. I assure my As with so many other issues, would not it be a good hon. Friend and the House that the status quo, do-nothing idea for his Department to start listening to the electorate agenda is not acceptable. Calculations show that if we rather than the civil servants? Should he not just get on do nothing and things stay as they are, it will cost the with it? taxpayer £1 billion over the next 10 years. Mr Paice: I have just made clear that the Government respect the view of the House and are sympathetic to SimonHart(CarmarthenWestandSouthPembrokeshire) the motion for a ban. I remind the right hon. Gentleman (Con) rose— that the specific measure mentioned in the motion constituted secondary legislation. All the advice given Mr Speaker: Order. The question is specifically about to us—and to the last Government—suggests that that West Worcestershire, and Carmarthen West and South is not the right way to proceed, which is why we are Pembrokeshire is a little distance from there. trying to overcome the obstacles. 1095 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 1096

Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): I appreciate Mrs Spelman: The National Ecosystem Assessment the Minister’s response, but it appears that confusion report should be compulsory reading for MPs, not least still reigns at DEFRA. After last Thursday’s vote, an because the Minister for policy at the Cabinet Office, official in the Department said: my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset “Given that a ban is not an immediate possibility, we will (Mr Letwin), described it as a game changer. The most proceed with a tough licensing regime”. important aspect of the report is the tool itself: 200 scientists That prompts an obvious question: why does the Minister from around the world came together to give us a continue to frustrate the will of the House? Will he scientific tool that enables us to estimate the true value commit himself to introducing a ban during the current of what nature provides for us for free. parliamentary Session? T2. [62894] Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): Mr Paice: I wish that the hon. Gentleman had listened Will the Secretary of State join me in welcoming to what I said. The fact is that it is unlawful for a Oxfam’s “Grow” campaign on sustainable farming and Minister to legislate if he knows that it is unlawful to do food? Has she met with Oxfam, and what discussions so. According to all the advice that we have been given, has she had with Department for International using section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 would Development Ministers on this issue? be extremely likely to raise a judicial challenge, which Mrs Spelman: As I have said before, what came over would not benefit the position. very strongly at the G20 from the agriculture Ministers I have made it clear that we are taking the matter of the world’s richest nations was the responsibility we forward. We are exploring all avenues, both in the have not only to grow more food sustainably but to aid Department and more widely outside Government, in developing countries to grow more food sustainably trying to find the best way of satisfying the desire of the themselves. We have good relationships with all our House. stakeholders and key non-governmental organisations—I Topical Questions would count Oxfam as one of them—and with our DFID colleagues in order to make sure we play our part. T1. [62893] Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): If she will make a statement on her T4. [62898] Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): departmental responsibilities. The Minister has already given a response on the inshore fishing consultation, but will he give my The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and under-10-metres fishermen the assurance that all the Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): My Department responses will be carefully considered, including takes responsibility for safeguarding the environment, concerns about the suggested structure and the fact supporting farmers and strengthening the green economy. that there will still be people with quotas who no longer In addition, it has responsibility for animal health and fish and have not done so for many years? welfare. Accordingly, I would like to take this opportunity to draw colleagues’ attention to the written ministerial The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for statement and accompanying “Dear colleague” letter Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): setting out the changes we are making to the pet travel Yes, I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that we scheme. I believe these changes strike the right balance will look at every response very carefully. We have had between making it easier for people who wish to travel about 20 meetings around the coast, which were very with pets and maintaining the protection people have a well attended, and many of the areas of consultation right to expect. They are consistent with our commitment were explained to the audience in such a way as to allay to science-led, evidence-based policy making. their fears. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George), we want to make life better Dr Whitehead: Tomorrow, the League Against Cruel for the under-10s and give them a more sustainable Sports will hold a national conference on wildlife protection future. with the support of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the Royal Society for the Protection Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): of Birds and other organisations. On the eve of that Only two weeks ago, a gamekeeper was convicted for conference, will the Secretary of State confirm that the illegally killing birds of prey in my constituency. Is it Government have dropped their plan to hold a vote to not time to think about introducing a vicarious liability enable the repeal of the Hunting Act 2004 in this offence to ensure that landowners and estate managers Parliament? supervise their gamekeepers more closely and more effectively? Mrs Spelman: We have not dropped our plan to hold a vote. That is part of the coalition agreement and it is Richard Benyon: There are very good laws in place to in our business plan. punish the illegal killing of any animal. If they are not being enforced, they must be and we will take steps to T3. [62895] Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): The make sure that happens. However, this is also a good Secretary of State is aware of the recent UK National opportunity to applaud gamekeepers for the wonderful Ecosystem Assessment report, which Friends of the work they do in providing excellent biodiversity across Earth has described as essential summer reading for all our countryside. MPs. It estimates that the health benefits of living within view of green spaces are worth approximately T5. [62899] George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) £300. Given those economic benefits, what will the (Con): Further to the earlier answer to the hon. Secretary of State do to ensure we better value our Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) national environment, in particular the green belt? about the groceries adjudicator, the Minister will be 1097 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 1098 aware that the proposal enjoys widespread support in Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does the farming industry, but there are concerns that the Minister agree that it is morally repugnant and an farmers will be reluctant to volunteer information for environmental disaster that the bulk of male calves fear of reprisals. Does the Minister agree that trade born in this country are immediately killed and incinerated? bodies such as the National Farmers Union must do Is it not about time we did something to change the way their bit by collating and publishing information from people see veal, as it is a wonderful product to eat? their members, to help guide the supermarket Could we not rename it “spring beef”, so that we could adjudicator to the right target and identify bad get over the prejudices that mean that these poor animals practice? get no life at all?

The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Mr Paice: Calves are born all year round, so I am not Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I agree with sure that the term that the hon. Gentleman proposes is my hon. Friend that there is widespread concern that quite right. That aside, I entirely share his view, although individuals might be loth to make complaints because the number of bull calves being slaughtered at birth is of the risk of being penalised by the retailer involved. now much lower than it was, because there has been a As he will know, the draft Bill allows for third-party welcome increase in the consumption of veal. We need representations, but does not allow for representations to make sure that this is UK veal and is what we call from trade bodies. To give a precise answer, there is “rose veal”, whereby calves are reared in humane nothing to prevent the National Farmers Union or any circumstances and not in some of the arrangements we other body from gathering information, publishing it see abroad. and making things clear. Obviously, the adjudicator would then have discretion over whether to pursue the T7. [62901] Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) investigation further. (Con): I am delighted that Octink, from my constituency, has been named one of the UK’s greenest Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): businesses for the third year running. Does my right Given today’s worrying report from the Committee on hon. Friend agree with me and with Will Tyler, its chief Climate Change showing that the UK is in danger of executive, who says that this approach is not only good missing its carbon reduction targets, will the Minister for the environment, but helps his bottom line. What back plans supported by more than 100 organisations, more can we do to promote the financial aspects and including the Co-operative Group, WWF and the benefits of green business? Aldersgate Group, and commit to introducing the mandatory reporting of corporate greenhouse gas Mrs Spelman: I applaud the green business that my emissions? hon. Friend has described, and I hope that she will Mrs Spelman: We are consulting on that, but I would convey my support for it. The Government have set up like the hon. Lady to know that my Department is a green economy council, which I co-chair, and it is very responsible for climate change adaptation and we are encouraging to see just how many businesses, in all completely committed, together with the Department sectors of the economy, understand the importance of of Energy and Climate Change, to achieving our carbon having both a green economy and a growing one. emissions targets. We will do all that we can because this is such an important matter, as was outlined in the Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): Everyone in this Foresight report. The challenge that we will face on House and across the country wants to eradicate bovine food security if we do not tackle the combination of an tuberculosis. Although the matter is devolved, what increasing population and demand for food, hungry discussions does DEFRA have with the devolved people and climate change means that we will be held to Administrations about the science-based evidence, as account. we need to exchange this information, get best practice and eradicate this disease once and for all? T6. [62900] Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Given that the Government are in favour of animals Mr Paice: I share the hon. Gentleman’s desire to being stunned before slaughter, when might we have eradicate this disease. I assure him that my officials were some food labelling regulations that will mark kosher in regular contact with Welsh officials prior to the and halal products as such, so that those of us who change of Government in Wales and that I had discussions object to ritual slaughter do not buy them with the relevant Minister at the time. I have not yet inadvertently? discussed this matter, although I have discussed others, with the new Minister. I look forward to doing so, and Mr Paice: My hon. Friend rightly says that the our officials will continue to be in close contact. The Government believe that all animals should be stunned hon. Gentleman rightly says that we need to make sure before slaughter, but we respect the rights of religious that, wherever possible, we are working in harmony on groups. However, this practice should clearly be restricted, this. wherever possible, to food for those religious groups. We face serious challenges in labelling and ensuring T8. [62902] Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con): efficient systems of traceability. The Government are Thames Water’s chief executive said last week that the examining the matter and, as I am sure he is aware, it is previous costing of £3.6 billion for the Thames tideway being discussed in respect of the food information tunnel was regulations in Brussels, although he will perhaps not wish to take that option further, given his views on that “simply an indicative 2008 price” place. I can also tell him that we will shortly consult on that would “inevitably increase”. The Minister will know the introduction of the new welfare at slaughter regulations that under the existing pricing, Thames Water bill payers and we will be raise this whole matter then. throughout the region will each have to pay £65 per 1099 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 1100 annum in perpetuity for the tunnel. Will he assure me through him, that The Daily Telegraph and the BBC and 142 other Members of this House that our constituents actually read those articles. The archbishop was aware will get value for money for this project? that a reader might say that to give a page to the Work and Pensions Secretary and five pages to an interview Richard Benyon: I can—and I am one of them. I can with the Foreign Secretary might show too much assure my hon. Friend that my constituents and his are establishment leaning. The criticism of the archbishop absolutely in our minds. We meet weekly with officials is, as Lucy Winkett put it, new from Ofwat and Thames Water, the issue will be discussed “like the waves, old like the sea.” at the DEFRA supervisory board this afternoon and I shall meet the London boroughs and the Greater London Tony Baldry: I shall certainly convey my hon. Friend’s authority next week to discuss the project. I can assure comments to the Archbishop of Canterbury. I will also my hon. Friend that its price is foremost in our minds. say to my hon. Friend, who has been in this House for some considerable time, that sometimes what is heard is as important as what is said. CHURCH COMMISSIONERS Fuel Prices

The hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church 4. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): What recent Commissioners, was asked— assessment the Church Commissioners have made of the effect of fuel prices on the financial position of the Rural Committee Church of England. [62906]

1. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Tony Baldry: Fuel prices impact on clergy and dioceses What recent reports he has received on the activities of are aware of the Government increase in mileage rates the rural committee of the Church Commissioners. from April 2011. [62903] Robert Halfon: Does my hon. Friend agree that the The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry): high cost of fuel is having a huge impact on the community In the past 12 months, the rural affairs group has and charitable work done by the Church? Will the worked on a variety of issues including bovine tuberculosis, Church play its part in asking the Government to delay the Localism Bill, common agricultural policy reform, the 3p inflationary rise in fuel tax that is planned for lay ministry in rural churches and vocations and training January? in rural ministry. Tony Baldry: Rising prices impact on us all, including Miss McIntosh: I take this opportunity to congratulate those who undertake charitable and pastoral duties in the rural committee on the work that it does. Can my the community. The Church of England will increase hon. Friend suggest ways in which we in this place can the mileage rate for staff and clergy, but we try to work more closely with the committee as it goes about encourage them to travel by public transport wherever its business? possible. I am sure I speak for all Members of the House when I say that we hope that charities and Tony Baldry: The Church’s rural committee would religious groups will endeavour to maintain their charitable certainly welcome a closer working relationship with and pastoral provision despite the change in fuel tax. my hon. Friend and the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which she so ably chairs. St Paul’s Church, Truro I encourage all bishops and suffragan bishops to take the opportunity of the parliamentary recess to get in 5. Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): What touch with parliamentary colleagues from all parties to plans the Church Commissioners have for the future of discuss how our colleagues can learn more from and St. Paul’s church, Truro and its hall. [62907] work more closely with the Church, whether that is in rural areas, in urban areas or on any project. Tony Baldry: The commissioners are actively working to find a suitable new use for St Paul’s church. Preparations Mr Speaker: I call Mr Ben Bradshaw. He is not here, are under way for placing it on the open market. The so I call Sir Peter Bottomley. commissioners are not specifically involved with the hall, which is on a separate site owned by the Truro New Statesman diocesan board of finance.

3. Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): Sarah Newton: The church hall is a valuable community Whether the Church Commissioners were consulted on resource that is much appreciated by the homeless people the choice of Ministers to be invited to contribute to of Truro, who receive a warm welcome and freshly the edition of the New Statesman edited by the cooked meals from the Truro homeless action group. Archbishop of Canterbury. [62905] Will my hon. Friend work with me to enable community groups to have the opportunity to secure the hall for the Tony Baldry: No. continued benefit of the community of Truro?

Sir Peter Bottomley: May I ask my hon. Friend to Tony Baldry: I entirely agree that Church of England thank the archbishop for sending the magazine and his buildings, whether they be churches or church halls, articles to all Members of Parliament? I also recommend, should wherever possible be open to the widest possible 1101 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 1102 use by the greater community. That is part of the Laura Sandys: My hon. Friend and I share a great Church’s national mission, and I think that before any passion for tourism organisations and our churches church or church building is declared redundant or sold working together more effectively. Does he recognise every possible effort should be made to see that it is that in east Kent we have a set of 10th, 11th and retained for community use. I will most certainly convey 12th century churches marking St Augustine’s way, and my hon. Friend’s comments to the diocese of Truro. will he join me in making a representation to the Church of England to ensure that visitors understand Marriages and enjoy those churches more? Tony Baldry: My hon. Friend is fortunate in representing 6. John Howell (Henley) (Con): What steps the a fantastic constituency, which, among its other attributes, Church Commissioners are taking to encourage was the place where St Augustine landed. I could cite at marriages in Church of England buildings. [62908] least three good examples of church tourism in my hon. Friend’s constituency, but, as I was accused during the Tony Baldry: The Church of England values the last Church Commissioners questions of loquaciousness, sacrament of marriage, it is keen to encourage marriage I will resist that temptation and simply say that I will in churches wherever possible and it has recently changed encourage the Bishop of Dover and, indeed, other the rules to enable couples to marry more easily when bishops to ensure that hon. Members know of the they would like to marry in church. efforts being made in all our constituencies to promote church tourism, because it is very important to make John Howell: I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. sure that as many people as possible can enjoy the Does he agree that this is not just about buildings, but heritage of our church buildings. that organists and musicians, of whom I confess to being one, make a valuable contribution, and that the Religious Education Church should promote those aspects as a package to encourage church weddings? 8. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to support the Tony Baldry: My hon. Friend was a much respected teaching of religious education in schools. [62910] organist and director of church music, and I think that one of the glories of England is church music, choirs and organ music. One reason many people want to Tony Baldry: Every diocese in the Church of England marry in Church of England churches is the contribution supports RE teaching in its schools, and most diocesan of the choir and the organist. education advisers also support and provide materials for the teaching of RE in non-Church schools.

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I have married more Fiona Bruce: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. people than, I think, anybody else in this House, and it As I believe he knows, a petition with 140,000 signatures was always great fun marrying couples in church, but expressing concern at the exclusion of RE from the the archbishop’s special licence system involved a lot of English baccalaureate was presented to Downing street people, frankly, telling fibs about where they lived, so I yesterday. One unintended consequence of that exclusion hope that that will be reformed. Would it not help if the is that the number of pupils applying to study RE at Church of England decided that it would like now to GCSE has dropped significantly, as have application hold civil partnership ceremonies in its churches? rates for RE teacher training—by some 25%. What action can the Church Commissioners take to ensure Tony Baldry: As the hon. Gentleman knows, that was that the study of RE is properly resourced, bearing in a matter of much debate during the passage of the mind that it is still a statutory—that is, compulsory—subject Equalities Bill both in this House and in the other place. for pupils in school up to 16 years old? It was resolved that there would be no change unless the General Synod agreed, and that is where the position Tony Baldry: My hon. Friend raises a serious point lies today. about RE in the E-bac. She will know that the Bishop of Oxford, who chairs the National Society—in other words, Tourism he is the lead bishop on education in the Church of England—has, on several occasions, made clear the 7. Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): What steps concerns of the Church of England, and indeed other the Church Commissioners are taking to promote faith groups, to ministerial colleagues in the Department tourism focused on church buildings and church for Education. I heard the Minister with responsibility heritage. [62909] for schools say in a debate in Westminster Hall that he would reflect on those representations, and we look forward to hearing what decisions Ministers take in Tony Baldry: The General Synod passed a motion respect of RE in the E-bac. encouraging all dioceses to support church tourism and to link with a wider national church tourism strategy. The cathedral and church buildings division of the Women Bishops Church of England encourages best practice, including opening churches, welcoming visitors and providing 9. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): interpretation, and it works closely with partners including How many diocesan synods have voted (a) for and (b) the Churches Tourism Association, Cathedrals Plus against the proposed legislation on women bishops. and the Churches Conservation Trust. [62911] 1103 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 1104

Tony Baldry: Notification has been received from six Asian minority ethnic groups, (b) women, (c) disabled diocesan synods, and I am pleased to tell the hon. Lady people and (d) from low-income groups. [62912] that so far all the dioceses that have voted have voted to approve the legislation. Tony Baldry: The latest figures collected in relation to the hon. Gentleman’s question were part of a 2007 Diana Johnson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that national parish congregation diversity survey. They show answer. Given the overwhelming support for women that about 5% of Church of England core congregations bishops, may I urge him to introduce legislation at the are from minority ethnic backgrounds and about 65% very earliest opportunity so that we can enshrine in law are women. Figures for disabled people are kept by equality between men and women as bishops? dioceses individually and are not held centrally.

Tony Baldry: The hon. Lady knows that I share her John Robertson: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate aspiration. Let me explain this process to the House, that things have moved on somewhat since 2007 and because I look forward to the support of all Members that, particularly in the more deprived areas, there will of the House when the Measure comes before Parliament be a hardening of the problems of meeting the cuts that in due course. Every diocese, of which there are 44, has are going to hit them. I believe that there is a very strong to vote. Six have voted; colleagues can work out the place for the Church in those areas in particular. Will he maths on the rest that still have to do so. Once they have ensure that the Church does the work that it should be all voted, there will be a meeting of the General Synod, doing in trying to attract these people through its which I hope in due course will approve the measure so doors? that it can come before Parliament to enable the consecration of women as bishops. I certainly hope that Tony Baldry: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for in the lifetime of this Parliament, Parliament will approve that question, because it gives me the opportunity to that measure. make the position clear. The Church Commissioners have £5.5 billion under investment, of which we disburse Congregations about £100 million every year to the Church. Much of that goes to poorer dioceses with inner-city and deprived 10. John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): areas so that the Church can fulfil its mission to such What assessment the Church Commissioners have areas and to those who need the greatest support. We made of recent trends in the proportion of Church of see that as a very important part of our role and of the England congregations that are (a) from black and Church’s national mission. 1105 30 JUNE 2011 1106

Ninetieth Birthday of HRH the Duke of Speaker’s Statement Edinburgh 11.35 am 11.33 am Mr Speaker: I have a further statement to make. Mr Speaker: On Wednesday 8 June, the House resolved Members will recall that on 4 May, I informed the that a message be sent to His Royal Highness the Duke House of the Clerk of the House’s intention to retire of Edinburgh to offer His Royal Highness the warmest with effect from Friday 30 September 2011. A trawl for good wishes of the House upon the occasion of his Sir Malcolm’s successor has now been held. There were ninetieth birthday. This morning I waited upon His five applicants, all of whom were interviewed by a panel Royal Highness, with the Prime Minister, the Deputy consisting of myself, the Chairman of Ways and Means, Prime Minister, the Leader of the House and the Leader the Leader of the House, the shadow Leader of the of the Opposition, to convey the said message. We were House, the Chairman of the Liaison Committee, the graciously received by His Royal Highness, who responded Chairman of the Finance and Services Committee, and in these terms: Sheila Drew Smith, an independent assessor. My Lords and Members of the House of Commons. I The unanimous recommendation of the panel was received your kind message of congratulations on my that Mr Robert Rogers, at present Clerk Assistant, ninetieth birthday with the greatest pleasure. I have derived should succeed Sir Malcolm Jack. I am glad to be able much satisfaction from the many years that I have been to tell the House that Her Majesty the Queen has able to help and support the Queen. Few others, if any, approved the appointment. I am sure that the House have had the satisfaction of witnessing the affection and will join me in congratulating Robert Rogers on his respect that so many people around the world have shown appointment. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] There will for the Queen since the beginning of her reign. I acknowledge be an opportunity at a later date to pay the traditional that the position that I have held has made it possible for tribute to the retiring Clerk. me to support and encourage a great many valuable and worthwhile organisations in this country and further afield. It has been a particular pleasure to be associated with so many organisations that have encouraged the development of the younger generation in this country and in the wider world. 1107 30 JUNE 2011 BSkyB 1108

BSkyB of serious crime. At least one senior executive even collaborated with at least one career criminal while he was serving time in prison. And, most appallingly of all, 11.36 am while the nation grieved, the criminals who were contracted Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab) (Urgent to News International illicitly targeted a parent of the Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, children who were murdered by Ian Huntley in Soham. Olympics, Media and Sport if he will make a statement Today the Secretary of State has chosen to take these on the News Corporation acquisition of BSkyB. people at their word. No wonder he tried to avoid answering colleagues in the House this morning! Did he The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media or the Prime Minister meet or talk to Rupert Murdoch and Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt): Earlier today, I placed a when he was here last week? Is it true that the Sky News written statement before the House outlining the next spin-off, NewCo, will have no equity value and no steps in my consideration of the potential merger between realistic chance of making a profit? How much tax will News Corp and BSkyB. In it, I explained that I have the newly acquired BSkyB pay in the UK? Does this published the results of the consultation on the undertakings decision enjoy the support of the Secretary of State for in lieu offered by News Corp, together with the subsequent Business, Innovation and Skills? advice I have received from Ofcom and the Office of Does the Secretary of State think it unusual that Fair Trading. BSkyB has organised a party at the Foreign Office As I outlined, the consultation did not produce any tonight? How can people realistically take part in a information that caused Ofcom or the OFT to change consultation that is to last only eight days? Has he taken their earlier advice to me. I could have decided to accept advice from the Cabinet Office on how to conduct the original undertakings. However, a number of proper and effective consultations? The ultimate owner constructive changes were suggested and, as a result, I of the newly acquired company will be registered as a am today publishing a revised, more robust set of shareholder in Delaware, USA, but there is no obligation undertakings, and will be consulting on them until on the company to publish the shareholder register. midday on Friday 8 July. Will he undertake to oblige the company to do this in Significantly, those changes strengthen further the the public interest before he finally signs off the deal? arrangements for editorial independence and business We have to know who will be the new owners of 40% of viability of the newly spun-off Sky News. In my view, the country’s media estate. they provide a further layer of very important safeguards. I am sure that the Secretary of State will get his As amended, I believe that the undertakings will remedy, reward for this decision, but he will pay a very high mitigate or prevent the threats to plurality that were political price. This seedy deal would shame a banana identified at the start of this process. If after this next republic. consultation process nothing arises that changes that view, I propose to accept the undertakings in lieu of a Mr Hunt: Let me first address the hon. Gentleman’s reference to the Competition Commission. Before coming final comment, which was beneath what he is capable to such a view, however, I will of course seek once again off. I am perfectly well aware that on such an issue no the advice of the independent external regulators. one will trust the motives of politicians, which is why, at every stage, I have sought independent advice from Mr Watson: In the end, it comes down to believing a Ofcom, the independent regulator, and the Office of promise. The Secretary of State has chosen to accept Fair Trading. I have done it even in areas I did not have the assurances of News Corp, when it has breached to. For example, I did not have to ask Ofcom’s advice on previous assurances on the takeover of The Times, The whether these undertakings were robust and I did not Sunday Times, The Sun and the News of the World. have to ask it whether it would address concerns about The Secretary of State could have chosen to disregard plurality, but I chose to do so, and I have published its those assurances to protect plurality, or asked whether advice. I have tried therefore, at every stage, to strengthen the acquirer has shown evidence of bad practice in its the confidence of the House and the public in the other media companies. Section 58 of the Enterprise integrity of the process. Act 2002 provides for specified considerations, including I shall move on to some of the issues that the hon. “the need for persons carrying on media enterprises, and for those Gentleman raised. First, he talked about past assurances with control of such enterprises, to have a genuine commitment given by News Corps in respect of previous media to the attainment in relation to broadcasting of the standards assets that it has purchased. This is not an issue of trust. objectives set out in section 319 of the Communications Act 2003”, These undertakings are legally binding and legally yet the chief executive of News International, Rebekah enforceable. Moreover, one of the undertakings particularly Brooks, openly and brazenly, and without any sense of addresses the concerns that I think are shared in many irony, admitted to a parliamentary Committee that parts of the House about broadcasting impartiality, News International paid police officers for evidence. which is enshrined in the broadcasting code. Under the The Secretary of State has granted the acquisition to undertakings that I published on 3 March and am an organisation that is currently the subject of three publishing again today, the code will form part of the separate police inquiries, and an organisation that a company’s articles of association. Under the strengthened parliamentary Select Committee found guilty of “collective undertakings that I am publishing today, News Corps amnesia” of criminality at one of its newspapers. There will not be allowed to attempt to get the new company is emerging evidence that News International conspired to breach its own articles of association, so the editorial with convicted criminals to pervert the course of justice impartiality for which Sky News is valued will be better by hacking the phones of serving police officers and protected than it is for any other media organisations in detectives, their families and the families of the victims this country. 1109 BSkyB30 JUNE 2011 BSkyB 1110

[Mr Jeremy Hunt] through. Secondly, it agrees that it will continue to cross-promote Sky News on the Sky platform at the I remind the hon. Gentleman that he has campaigned— same level it currently does. In terms both of financial I think very honourably and impressively—on the phone- viability and of that all-important contribution to media hacking issue. At root, I agree with what he says: no plurality I am satisfied that if I proceed with the company should be above the law. But just as no company undertakings as published today, we will continue to should be above the law, no Minister should be above have a free and plural media. the law. I have to follow due process, and due process under the Enterprise Act 2002, which was put in place Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): The Secretary of by his Government, says that I have to consider this on State could have made different choices. He could have the basis of media plurality—a very important issue—to chosen to appear before the House today and make an make sure that no one person has too much control oral statement rather than be dragged kicking and over our media. That is why James Murdoch and Rupert screaming to the House. He could have chosen to refer Murdoch will have less control of Sky News after this this acquisition to the Competition Commission for an deal goes through than before it because of the undertakings independent inquiry to remove any doubts about the in place. objectivity and transparency of the process. Will he On the other issues that the hon. Gentleman raised, I answer the following questions? In view of the fact that cannot speak for the Prime Minister but I have had no this process has now taken six months, why did he not contact with the Prime Minister over this deal. I am follow Ofcom’s original advice and refer this deal to the deciding this deal on a quasi-judicial basis, but I have Competition Commission? How can he say that he has not met Rupert Murdoch or James Murdoch in recent delivered greater independence for Sky News when it weeks, and all the meetings I have had with them have will be almost entirely dependent on News Corp for been minuted and done through official channels. On both distribution and funding? Will he publish in full the tax issue, obviously, like all companies, News Corp the independent legal advice he has received on all will be subject to UK law, but this issue has been aspects of this acquisition? decided on media plurality grounds. In relation to media issues, the Secretary of State has On the consultation, I remind the hon. Gentleman responsibility for media policy in this country, and it is that I could have chosen to conclude this issue today, therefore very disappointing to say the least that he has but I have not. I am launching a further consultation. had so little to say about the phone-hacking scandal. This issue has been in the public domain since last The current police investigation must, this time, lead to summer, but I want to make sure that this House and full disclosure of all evidence, with those responsible the public have every possible opportunity to comment brought to justice. Does the Secretary of State agree on what is being proposed. Not only that, but I have that once that investigation has been concluded there listened to them. In fact, I think we have made the should be an independent inquiry into the conduct of undertakings more robust and stronger so I am confident the British press? The issues go further than one newspaper that what I am proposing to the House will protect group. We have made it clear that we support self-regulation, plurality of the media, which I know is highly valued in but self-regulation must be accompanied by responsibility all parts of the House. and accountability. It is surely time for lessons to be learned and reforms to be put in place so that such Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): May I unlawful practices can never happen again. congratulate the Secretary of State on the meticulous care that he has shown in his handling of this matter? Mr Speaker: Order. I say to the shadow Secretary of Can he confirm that every single concern that has been State that we are on the subject specifically of the raised by the regulatory authorities has been addressed? proposed acquisition, so I feel sure that the references On the wider question of impartiality, does he agree that the hon. Gentleman has made to another issue are that the value of Sky News is not because it makes now at an end. I think that we are clear about that. Does money—it does not—but because of the benefit to the the hon. Gentleman wish to complete his remarks? overall reputation of BSkyB that comes from the integrity, objectivity and the quality of its news gathering, and Mr Lewis: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. that it would therefore be madness for any new owner to Does the Secretary of State agree that such inquiry is seek to change that? now necessary?

Mr Hunt: I completely agree with what my hon. Mr Hunt: I am quite bemused by what the shadow Friend is saying. The regulatory authorities have both Culture Secretary is saying. He has said that the phone- confirmed, both on 3 March and today, that they are hacking issue is not linked to the BSkyB merger. Those satisfied that the undertakings I am putting before the were his words. Now he is telling the House that there is House address the concerns that were raised about a link. He says that I could have chosen to refer this to media plurality. I have taken that advice very seriously the Competition Commission but have chosen not to. indeed. Would he have chosen to refer it to the Competition My hon. Friend’s second point about Sky News is Commission, because he has not said so? If he is now particularly important today because in the revised saying so, that is a big change in the Labour party’s undertakings that we have published there are two position. Let me tell him that it is the Enterprise Act things that particularly strengthen what the public value 2002, introduced by the last Labour Government, that about Sky News. First, News Corp undertakes that it gives the Secretary of State the right to accept undertakings will not do anything to cause Sky News to contribute in lieu instead of a referral to the Competition Commission. less to media plurality in this country if this deal goes I am following precisely the process that was set up in 1111 BSkyB30 JUNE 2011 BSkyB 1112 law by his Government. I am doing so after expert, whether that is the right way for the law to operate, and independent advice by regulators who understand the we have said that we will look at all these issues in our market extremely well—Ofcom and the Office of Fair communications Bill. Trading—and I am publishing that advice so that people can see the basis on which I have made the decision. Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): Does The hon. Gentleman also raised issues of the dependency the Secretary of State agree that the procedure in the of the new company on News Corp for its funding. He Enterprise Act puts him in the position of judge in these is right: the financial resilience of Sky News is central to circumstances, and he therefore has a clear duty to be the sustainability of the deal. That is why, as part of the extremely measured in his remarks, to be meticulous in undertakings, we have reached agreement on a carriage what he does, and to ensure that he has independent agreement, which will give financial security to the new advice, including legal advice? Does he agree that that is company for a 10-year period, which addresses those what he has done in this case, and one of the great concerns. The company is able to develop its business lessons of the whole affair is how important it is to outside Sky during that period, which will make it less follow such an approach? financially dependent on Sky, but even if it does not do that, it has the security of a 10-year funding agreement, Mr Hunt: I thank my hon. Friend, who understands which is considerably greater than that of the BBC, for these issues very well. There is a legitimate question as example, in the licence fee settlement. to whether it is appropriate to give elected politicians I am publishing more advice than any Secretary of the responsibility for arbitrating on a decision for which State has ever published on any comparable deal. We many members of the public will inevitably question are being completely transparent about the processes their motives. That is why I have tried to be completely because we want to ensure that the public has confidence, transparent and have sought, published and, after careful and it would be good if the shadow Culture Secretary consideration, followed independent advice at every could at least acknowledge that transparency. stage. We can debate in the House whether the law is right to insist on the procedures that it does, but I know that hon. Members feel passionately that due process Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD): The Secretary of State must be followed, and that is why I am doing that in this has rightly said that this is an issue about plurality in case. news and current affairs. Does he recall that in 2002 the Labour Government opposed a general plurality test, and that it was only because of the efforts of Lord Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): How on earth did Puttnam and others in another place that one was we—and I mean all of us, not just the Minister—become included in the Enterprise Act? Given that that was a so spineless as to allow a company whose directors not watered-down test, does he believe that the time is now only failed in their fiduciary duties to prevent criminality right to set up an independent commission on plurality at the News of the World, but actually participated in its so that it can inform the future communications Bill? cover-up, to hold dominion over such a vast swathe of the media in this country? No other country in the world would allow somebody to have so much power. Mr Hunt: My right hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. The process that we have gone through has revealed that both he and I would like to make sure Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Apart from Italy. that there are better protections for media plurality, not in situations such as this—we have a process that involves Chris Bryant: Apart, perhaps, from Italy. Why on exhaustive public scrutiny—but where someone might earth do we allow it? develop a dominant position in the media, and the public might not be as protected as they should be. That Mr Hunt: Phone hacking is incredibly serious, and is why the coalition Government have said that we want the police must follow their inquiries wherever they to do something that the last Labour Government did lead. The fact that we are having those inquiries at the not do: look at whether plurality protection can be moment and that they have been as extensive as they are strengthened, which we will do in the new communications demonstrates that no company is above the law, and no Bill that we will be putting to the House in the second company should be. half of this Parliament. Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Will the Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): Is not the Secretary of State comment on how the new undertakings Secretary of State in this position because of the acts of from BSkyB will strengthen the operation or financial the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and viability of Sky News? Skills? The Enterprise Act was very clear that difficult decisions such as this should be taken out of the hands Mr Hunt: I can reassure my hon. Friend on that of politicians and given to the Competition Commission. front. There are two particular revisions to the undertakings that will strengthen the financial viability of Sky News. Mr Hunt: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is The first is a requirement that the operational agreements wrong. I have often wondered why the Act specifically entered into between Sky and Sky News are fair and gives the duty of deciding an issue such as this to an reasonable, and the second is a requirement that Sky elected politician when in, for example, competition will continue to cross-promote Sky News across the Sky law, such decisions are taken out of the hands of politicians. network at the levels that it currently does. That, combined That is the way the law operates at the moment under with a 10-year carriage agreement, which gives guaranteed that Act. Hon. Members will want to take a view as to financial income for 10 years—a very long time in the 1113 BSkyB30 JUNE 2011 BSkyB 1114

[Mr Jeremy Hunt] arrangements than it is at present. I hope that that will reassure at least those Members who are prepared to media marketplace—means that this will be a very look at the matter objectively. financially sustainable and resilient model, which of course it needs to be. Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): For the sake of clarity, will my right hon. Friend confirm Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Why is the that under the new, strengthened undertakings any future new consultation period that the Secretary of State has chairman of Sky News, and the current chairman, will announced so short, and how can it be meaningful? be truly independent and impartial?

Mr Hunt: This is a fairly short consultation, the Mr Hunt: I can confirm that under these undertakings primary purpose of which is to give people a chance to the board of the hived-off Sky News will have a majority look at the amendments to the undertakings that were of independent directors and that its chair will be fully published on 3 March. The core undertakings have independent. That is completely different from Sky been in the public domain since 3 March, and indeed News’s current situation. the wider issue of the merger has been in the public domain since last year. This is the conclusion of a long Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): series of consultations, and I will listen to all the submissions The Secretary of State has announced a consultation that I receive before making my final decision. this morning, albeit a very short one. Will he give us a commitment not to make the final decision during the recess and to bring the matter back to the House for a Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): The debate when we reconvene in the autumn? Secretary of State previously stated that he was content with the proposals to keep Sky News independent from Mr Hunt: I will certainly bring the decision back to the rest of Sky.He has today announced further safeguards. the House when it is made. With regard to timing, I am Are those safeguards that he had pushed for, or were trying to do this as quickly as possible, while ensuring they proposed by the regulators? that we have proper consultation processes and a proper amount of time to consider the responses to the Mr Hunt: I suppose the answer is a combination of consultation. The fact that I have today strengthened both, because I have been absolutely clear that I want the undertakings that were published on 3 March reflects the independent regulators to be satisfied that the final the fact that we are taking the consultation very seriously. package on the table addresses their concerns about plurality, not least because of the concerns raised earlier Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Will the Secretary about the objectivity of politicians making the decision. of State address the concerns that have been raised on I did not make the specific proposals; they arose from the publication of the shareholder register for the new the public consultation and were what members of the company? Surely transparency in this respect is central public suggested as sensible changes. We then analysed to the confidence we can have that the arrangements them in the Department, and with Ofcom and the OFT, meet our concerns about plurality, in substance as well and arrived at the strengthened set of proposals that I as in form. have published today. Mr Hunt: For the purposes of the decision I am Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I do not doubt making, I have assumed that Rupert Murdoch is fully in for a moment the Secretary of State’s integrity, but I do control of News Corp and the dominant controlling believe that he is wrong, morally and politically, on this shareholder. Because this is a decision about media issue. He is propping up a crumbling empire. Murdoch plurality, it is not necessary for me to consider other is the Gaddafi of News Corporation. How will Sky shareholders in News Corp in order to come to a maintain independent news when most of its editorial decision. content will come from News Corporation? Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): The Mr Hunt: It is not the case that most of Sky News’s Secretary of State has correctly indicated that these editorial content will come from News Corporation. new, legally binding and strengthened undertakings will Sky News, under today’s proposals, will be hived off as be enshrined in the new company’s articles of association. an independent company that will source its news from He will of course be aware that a shareholder resolution the multiplicity of sources that all good news organisations can change the articles of association of any company, use. The big picture is that News Corp, in order to wherever it is registered, so what additional protections acquire full control of Sky, is relinquishing a degree of will be put in place to stop that happening? control over Sky News. There are things that happen today that will not be possible under the new undertakings. Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend is right; that is the procedure For example, it is possible today for James Murdoch, for changing the articles of association. First, under the the non-executive chairman of Sky, to fire the person in strengthened undertakings that we are publishing today, charge of Sky News. Under the undertakings published the Secretary of State must approve the articles of today, if they proceed, that would not be possible. association before they go ahead. Secondly, under Adherence to the broadcasting code is mandated in the undertaking 3.1(i), News Corp is not allowed to increase new company’s articles of association. That is not the its shareholding above its current level, which is well case at present. Broadcasting impartiality, adherence to below the level that would be necessary to change the the highest editorial standards and independence of the articles of association. Thirdly, under the strengthened editorial process will be much stronger under the new undertakings it is not allowed to do anything that 1115 BSkyB30 JUNE 2011 BSkyB 1116 would cause the new company to breach its own articles Mr Hunt: I think it does. I agree with my hon. Friend of association. I think that we have as many protections that that is what the public value in Sky News and what in place as one could imagine to ensure that News Corp we are seeking to protect. It is worth reminding the honours this deal and the public continue to get the House that Sky News was the first 24-hour news broadcaster benefit of what they value Sky News for. in this country and that it has contributed massively through the competition and choice that it has added to Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): May the news landscape, and we should value it for that. I note a paternal interest, Mr Speaker? As BSkyB has been de facto controlled by News Corp since it was Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): May I founded, are not these arrangements making it more take the Secretary of State back to financial viability? Is independent, and some might say more impartial, than he satisfied that Sky News will be able not only to the state broadcaster, and therefore is not this row survive for 10 years, but to invest in high-quality news somewhat synthetic? gathering for that time?

Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend is right that, contrary to Mr Hunt: I am completely satisfied. My hon. Friend many people’s concern that this will give the Murdochs is right that the first time the undertakings were proposed more control over Sky News, they are in fact relinquishing to me, my concern was about financial viability. Sky a significant degree of control over Sky News in order News has a secure financial platform for a long period, to purchase shares in the rest of Sky. My concern is not which is the envy of all other broadcasters. That will with competition law, which is being considered by the allow it to do precisely what my hon. Friend says. I am European Commission, but with media plurality and sure that with an independent board led by an independent ensuring that no one person has too much control over chairman, it will want to diversify its sources of funding, any aspect of our media. I am confident that these which would give it even more money to invest in news strong undertakings will ensure that that is the case. gathering, which is its core strength.

Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Given the disappointing Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Did Ofcom comments of the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry or the Office of Fair Trading change their initial advice Gardiner), will my right hon. Friend take the opportunity about whether the undertakings addressed their concerns to pay tribute to News Corp for saving The Times, about plurality? producing The Times Educational Supplement and providing an excellent broadcasting service in the form of Sky Mr Hunt: No, they did not. I could have accepted the TV? Does he not agree that those who are so concerned original undertakings published on 3 March. I have about the alleged monopoly of BSkyB should also be chosen not to, which is why there is now a further concerned about the monopoly of the BBC, which consultation to make the undertakings even more robust. controls more than a third of our television and which we are forced to pay for? Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Will the Secretary of Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend branches out into media State confirm that under the Enterprise Act 2002, his policy more generally, but I will resist the temptation to decision is quasi-judicial and he can take into account follow, except to say that the Government have always only relevant considerations, not irrelevant considerations believed that what is good about the media in this such as whether one thinks that Murdoch is brilliant or country is that we have a strong BBC and strong like Gaddafi, or one’s personal view on the organisation competition to it. However, this decision is about media as a whole? plurality and ensuring the diversity of voices in the media, and that is what I am seeking to protect with the Mr Hunt: I can absolutely confirm that. To strengthen undertakings we are publishing today. public confidence that that is the way in which I have approached the decision, I have taken independent advice Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Having watched at every stage and I have published it so that people can Sky News in some fairly remote parts of the world, I take their own view on how I have come to this conclusion. wonder whether my right hon. Friend would agree with me that its broadcasting must not only be impartial, but Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the Secretary of State have a considerable degree of morality and humanity? and colleagues. 1117 30 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 1118

Business of the House with the problem. The Leader of the House did not refer to the possibility of such legislation in his statement. Will he tell us the latest position? 12.11 pm Last week, my hon. Friend the Member for Slough Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): Will the Leader (Fiona Mactaggart) raised the problem of questions of the House give us the forthcoming business? addressed to the Minister for Women and Equalities being transferred to other Departments. Has the Leader The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George of the House made any progress in looking into that? Young): The business for next week will be: Can we have topical questions on this important area of the Government’s responsibilities? MONDAY 4JULY—Continuation of remaining stages of the Finance (No.3) Bill (day 2). Next Monday, Andrew Dilnot’s report on social care TUESDAY 5JULY—Conclusion of the remaining stages is due to be published. Will the right hon. Gentleman of the Finance (No.3) Bill (day 3). confirm that there will be an oral statement? Will he also undertake to find time subsequently for the House WEDNESDAY 6JULY—Estimates day [3rd allotted day]. to debate these important matters? Talking of which, in There will be a debate on the “Prevent” strategy followed view of today’s industrial action, may we have a debate by a debate on Afghanistan and Pakistan. Further about the Government’s mishandling of the public sector details will be given in the Official Report. pensions negotiations? [The details are as follows: The Prevent strategy: 6th Report from the Communities and Local Government The Business Secretary said recently that he wanted a Committee of Session 2009-10, HC 65, “Preventing Violent resurgent manufacturing sector. Therefore, can we have Extremism”. Afghanistan and Pakistan: 4th Report from a statement from the Secretary of State for Transport the Foreign Affairs Committee of Session 2010-12, HC 514, on why he awarded a £1.5 billion contract for 1,200 new “The UK’s foreign policy approach to Afghanistan and train carriages to a company in Germany, when it will Pakistan”; and the Government’s response CM 8064.] put some 3,000 British railway manufacturing jobs in jeopardy? At 7.00pm the House will be asked to agree all outstanding estimates. Has the Leader of the House seen the e-mail that was released this week from Evan Harris, the former Liberal THURSDAY 7JULY—Proceedings on the Supply and Democrat Member? In discussing the changes to the Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill, followed by Health and Social Care Bill, he wrote: consideration of Lords Amendments to the Fixed-Term Parliaments Bill, followed by a debate on use of hand-held “There is a view that we should keep quiet, say we had a electronic devices in the Chamber and Committees. The victory and hope no-one notices this stuff—but I think that is not realistic. The plans remain bad for the NHS”. subject for this debate was nominated by the Backbench Business Committee. May we have a debate so that we can sit back and The provisional business for the week commencing discover whether those views are shared by the coalition 11 July will include: Liberal Democrats who still have their seats or whether they are doing what they do on occasion, which is to MONDAY 11 JULY—Consideration of Lords Amendments face in several different directions at once? to the European Union Bill, followed by motion to approve European documents relating to civil law. Last week, the newspapers reported the Deputy Prime Minister’s plan to give away shares in the publicly TUESDAY 12 JULY—Motion relating to the retirement owned banks. No sooner had it hit the front pages than of the Clerk of the House, followed by Second Reading a source was briefing that it was back-of-the-envelope of the Public Bodies Bill [Lords]. stuff: I should also like to inform the House that the “He…should know better. This is not the way you make business in Westminster Hall for Thursday 7 and 14 July policy.” 2011 will be: A few days later, the Deputy Prime Minister announced THURSDAY 7JULY—A debate on intellectual property the localisation of business rates, again outside the and the Hargreaves report. House of Commons. Here are two major policy THURSDAY 14 JULY—A debate on “The Future of announcements. In one case, it seems that the Cabinet CDC”, the International Development Committee’s fifth has not even had the chance to question him, let alone report of session 2010-12, HC 607. the House of Commons. In the other, we are still Further to your earlier announcement, Mr Speaker, waiting for a statement. the whole House endorses what you said in congratulating May we have a debate on Camnesia? That is not a Robert Rogers on his appointment as Clerk of the previously undiscovered Polynesian island, but a previously House and wishes him well in his new responsibilities. undiagnosed condition that affects the Prime Minister’s ability to recall the detail of his own policies. As we saw Hilary Benn: I am grateful to the Leader of the again at yesterday’s Prime Minister’s questions, he seems House for that reply. I associate myself with the to know nothing about the huge increase in the number congratulations to Robert Rogers on his appointment. of NHS quangos that he is creating. We look forward to continuing to work with him in his After all the remarkable U-turns we have seen in the new role. last few weeks, the very special humiliation of last We are about to have a statement on police detention week’s vote on wild animals in circuses took some following the court ruling. We stand ready to assist with doing. The issue was extremely clear: it is not right for emergency legislation if that is what is needed to deal the entertainment of others to make big beasts do 1119 Business of the House30 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 1120 things that do not come naturally to them, which is why I was in the House when the hon. Member for Worsley we have all felt great sympathy this week for the Justice and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) raised the issue of Secretary. As we have heard, first thing in the morning, local government finance, and I refreshed my memory there was a hard three-line Whip in a desperate attempt about the coalition agreement, which committed us to to defeat the motion, but by 4 o’clock in the afternoon it “promote the radical devolution of power and greater financial had vanished, along with the Government’s courage, autonomy to local government and community groups. This will because the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) include a review of local government finance.” had made it clear that he would neither be induced nor The terms of reference for that review were set out in a bullied by the Prime Minister into withdrawing his statement on 17 March. The review is ongoing, and a motion. Can we have a debate to praise the hon. consultation document will be published in due course. Gentleman—others are trying to bury him—or at the There has been no dramatic change in Government very least to save him from being taken round the back policy. of the bike sheds for a good hiding, as one colleague has The shadow Leader of the House mentioned the apparently suggested? I assume that he did not mean events of last Thursday and talked about the vote, but it—perhaps it was just a job application to be a Tory there was no vote at the end of that debate. The Government Whip. accepted the motion. He might at some time pay tribute Finally, as yet another policy bites the dust, does this to the coalition Government for setting up the Backbench not all reveal the fundamental truth about the current Business Committee. There would have been no such occupant of No. 10 Downing street? Unlike his much debate had his party remained in power, because it more resolute predecessor—[Interruption.] Unlike Baroness refused to set up the Committee. Thatcher, this Prime Minister is for turning. Finally, I admire the right hon. Gentleman’s acting ability in keeping a straight face in his final remarks Sir George Young: As always, we enjoyed that, but about the former Prime Minister. there was a slight absence of questions about the future business of the House, from which I take it that the Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): May I warmly Opposition are perfectly happy with the way in which welcome the announcement of the business for next this Administration are managing the business of the Thursday based on the Procedure Committee’s report House. on the use of hand-held devices in the Chamber and in Committees? Does he agree that that is a very important I am grateful for what the right hon. Gentleman said matter, on which it is desirable that an early decision is about police detention and bail. We will have to await made? Will he therefore bring forward a business motion the statement that is to follow to discover whether to ensure that the House can reach a decision next emergency legislation is necessary. I am grateful for his Thursday one way or the other? offer of support should that be the outcome. Turning to the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Sir George Young: I am grateful to my right hon. Mactaggart), I will share with my right hon. and hon. Friend and his Committee for producing that report. I Friends the right hon. Gentleman’s request to extend think some hon. Members have anticipated the House’s topical questions to the Government Equalities Office, decision by already using hand-held devices, but it is which at the moment does not have them because it has important that we regularise the matter. a relatively narrow slot. The procedure for transferring The Government are anxious not to create a precedent questions has not changed at all under this Administration. of routinely timetabling Backbench motions, but I will A question is transferred to the Department that is best consider my right hon. Friend’s request. Subject to the able to answer it. agreement of the Chair of the Backbench Business On Dilnot, this is an important issue. That is why one Committee, and indeed of the House, I will be prepared of the first things we did on taking office was to ask to table an appropriate motion to protect the business Andrew Dilnot to chair this commission, which I on Thursday. understand will report on Monday. It is an issue that should be debated by the House in due course, but I Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): On Monday cannot promise a statement by the Government on the House will devote considerable time to debating, Monday, which is the date of the publication. It may be and voting on, an amendment to tackle the problems some time before the Government come up with their caused by legal loan sharking. Given that, may we have response. an urgent statement on the Government’s plans to cap the cost of credit? As part of that, will the Leader of the We would welcome a debate on our approach to House investigate a meeting that I understand took industrial action and strikes, and I hope that the Labour place on Wednesday, at which it was agreed that the party might clarify its own views. I see that the hon. Government would vote against the amendment on Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) Monday, delaying action to relieve the misery caused by said that the Leader of the Opposition was under some high-cost credit, purely so that an announcement can be misapprehension as to what was going on. However, I made at the Liberal Democrat party conference? We am grateful to the him and many other Members for need to know that when MPs vote on Monday, they are making it into the building today. not putting choreographing coalition dividing lines ahead The matter of train carriages was dealt with in Transport of the interests of vulnerable consumers. questions. The contract was awarded under exactly the same procedure that the previous Government used to Sir George Young: May I say by way of preface that I order new rolling stock, and there has been no change commend the action that the hon. Lady is taking, in whatever. conjunction with others, to tackle excessive interest rate 1121 Business of the House30 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 1122

[Sir George Young] and include them in mainstream education as soon as possible. I will draw his remarks to the attention of my charges on credit cards and other means of credit? She right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education. asked for a debate, but answered her own question by saying that there would indeed be a debate next Monday. Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): I make I shall draw her remarks to the attention of my colleague my usual declaration of an indirect interest in the at the Treasury who will be replying to that debate. I am interests of my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich sure that nothing underhand has taken place at all. and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford). Will the Leader of the House consider asking the David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): May I draw the Minister for Housing and Local Government to make House’s attention to the real concerns, particularly in an urgent statement to the House, preferably this afternoon, Norman Shaw, about the proposal to transfer the postal on the regional growth fund? There is a real contradiction delivery from the Attendants to the postmen? That is between what he has been saying in the House and the causing great concern among the Attendants, many of evidence given by Lord Heseltine to the Communities whom have worked for the House for 20 or up to and Local Government Committee yesterday.The Minister 36 years. Are they going to be made redundant? What is says that housing is definitely part of the regional going to happen to them if that change is made? growth fund, but Lord Heseltine says, “Oh no it isn’t”. Will the Leader of the House please encourage the Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s Housing Minister to come and clear this mess up? concern, and I share his appreciation of the work that the Attendants have done. As he will know, this is a Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Lady’s matter for the House of Commons Commission rather concern that areas that benefited from the housing than the Government. You, Mr Speaker, as Chairman market renewal grant may not benefit from the regional of the Commission, will have heard the comments, and growth fund. She will be pleased to know that two I will ensure that the Commission addresses the issue at authorities have already received money under the regional its next meeting. growth fund for projects that include a very large element of housing. They are two areas that were previously John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): The Leader getting funds from the housing market renewal programme, of the House will know that the Business Secretary so the situation is not quite as dire as she has just constantly hints that he is going to introduce some sort implied. of legislative curb on the freedoms of the trade unions, despite the fact that we already have some of the most Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): In a written restrictive labour laws in the western world. Is the parliamentary answer, the Lord Chancellor confirmed Business Secretary finally going to come to the House that his Department had provided information to a The Daily Telegraph and make an announcement, or is this just going to journalist from on the Government’s lurch on for a few more months? new policy on legal aid prior to his written statement to the House on 21 June. It was published on the front page of The Daily Telegraph prior to the statement. Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman must have May we have a statement from the Leader of the House been listening to different speeches by the Business next week on the Government’s views on statements, Secretary from the ones that I have heard, in which he and could it be heard first here, not on the front page of has consistently said that he has no plans to change The Daily Telegraph? industrial relations legislation. I am not quite sure where the hon. Gentleman got that idea from. Sir George Young: The ministerial code is absolutely explicit that important announcements of Government Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con): May I ask the Leader policy should be made in the first instance to the House. of the House for an urgent statement from the Secretary I would regret any breach of that part of the code. This of State for Education, following the latest appalling Government have made roughly one third more oral figures released by my local district council? They show statements per day than the previous Administration, that a total of 28,000 children in the district do not so we take that responsibility seriously, and the Prime speak English as their first language, representing 43.5% Minister has made more oral statements in his first year of primary school children and one in three secondary than his predecessors. school children. For clarification, I believe that more than 90% of those children were born and raised in this Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): May we have a country. There is a clear responsibility on parents, who debate on the way in which we pay our respects to the are failing our children. How are we going to hold them fallen, particularly in Afghanistan? The practice of to account? Back Benchers reading out the names of the fallen in the House is now forbidden, and on two occasions the Sir George Young: I understand the challenges that announcement by the Prime Minister of their names face teachers in educating children who do not have has been moved, to a Monday and a Tuesday. English as their first language, and the consequential There is now great concern that the moving tributes issues for other children at their schools. My hon. paid by the people of Wootton Bassett cannot be paid Friend will know that in April, the ethnic minority under the new arrangements at Brize Norton, because achievement grant, which currently stands at just over the hearses are taken on a route that does not allow the £200 million, was mainstreamed into the wider dedicated public to line up and pay their tributes in order that we schools grant. He will know also that the coalition as a Parliament can be reminded of the consequences of Government’s priority for children with English as an our decisions and the country can be reminded of the additional language is to promote rapid language acquisition true cost of war. 1123 Business of the House30 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 1124

Sir George Young: It is important that this House has my hon. Friend’s concern with him and see whether an opportunity to pay the sort of tributes that the hon. there is any possibility of changing the date that she has Gentleman has mentioned, although some of the issues mentioned. that he raised at the beginning of his question fall more appropriately to you, Mr Speaker. I will raise the matter Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, who has Will the Leader of the House ask the Business Secretary a constituency interest, and see whether there is any way to make a statement on the serious situation facing the that what used to happen in Wootton Bassett can take Liverpool retailer T J Hughes? Some 4,000 jobs across place under the new arrangements for repatriating those the country are under threat, with the company going who have fallen. into administration this week. Will the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills use all its efforts to find Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): May we please a buyer, so that the company’s jobs can be protected have a statement on when the driving test centre in and the service to local people continued? Bury, which has already been closed for over six months, will reopen? Its continued closure is causing enormous Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s inconvenience to both driving school instructors and concern about the prospective loss of jobs in his their pupils in Bury and the surrounding area. constituency and elsewhere. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills will want to do all that his Department can, Sir George Young: My hon. Friend will be pleased to either to protect those jobs in the way that the hon. hear that the Driving Standards Agency is committed Gentleman has just outlined, or to assist in every practical to reopening the driving test centre in Bury, which way those who may lose their jobs. suffered from extensive flooding damage in late 2010. Feasibility studies have now been obtained and the Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Can consideration be building works will be subject to a competitive tender given to holding a debate on the way BT treats its exercise. The planned reopening is scheduled for late elderly and vulnerable customers? I have recently dealt 2011, and I hope that my hon. Friend is invited to do with a case in which a widow in her 70s was without a the honours. domestic telephone service for a month, despite many efforts to resolve the problem. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): May we have a statement about what the Government are going Sir George Young: I am sorry to hear about the to do about the treatment of the two classes of Members inconvenience caused by BT’s failure to restore the in this House—those who turn up and do their work service to my hon. Friend’s constituent. I will raise the here in Parliament, and those who refuse to take their issue with BT. Speaking as a constituency MP, I can seats, but who, scandalously, will still get paid an estimated only say that I have found the liaison officer, Clova £3 million to £4 million over the course of this Parliament, Fyfe, to have been enormously helpful in addressing not only in constituency money, but in Short money, such issues when they have arisen in North West Hampshire. which they, unlike us, can use for non-parliamentary, political party activities? When will the Government David Wright (Telford) (Lab): May we have a debate deliver on their promise that it would be inconceivable on standards in the production of wills and possible that MPs would continue to allow that to happen in this regulation? I have been approached by a number of Parliament? constituents who have had difficulties ensuring that their partner’s will is delivered and executed correctly, Sir George Young: I understand the right hon. where it is clearly against their partner’s wishes, as Gentleman’s concern. The Government’s view is quite expressed to them before their death. We need regulation clear: those who are elected to the House should take in this important area, so may we have a debate? their seats in the House like everybody else. As he may know, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s Northern Ireland is discussing this very issue with the concern. I do not know whether it would be appropriate political parties, and I will remind him of the continuing to raise the issue either on the Adjournment or, if the need to find an appropriate solution. Backbench Business Committee so decides, in the series of Adjournment debates that we normally have on the last day before the recess. In the meantime, I will inform Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): In an answer that the Justice Secretary of his concern and see whether he the Minister for Immigration gave me yesterday, it was has any plans to sort out the uncertainty that arises in confirmed that we could extend to 2013 the transitional the situations that the hon. Gentleman has set out. arrangements for migrant workers from new accession countries who have access to our job market. I would Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): I very like to protect British jobs for British workers where much hope that we can have a debate on public sector possible, so may we please have a statement from the pensions, on whether it is fair that those in the private Minister on why we are not taking advantage of that sector should have to work longer and pay more so that extension of protection for our labour market? those in the public sector can retire earlier and receive more, and on how we achieve a pensions system that is Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s fair to all. concern. There will be an opportunity at Home Office questions to cross-question the appropriate Minister, Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is right: we have who I believe was before the House during Home Office to get the balance right. We have to be fair to those who questions earlier this week. In the meantime, I will share are entitled to public sector pensions and to the taxpayers, 1125 Business of the House30 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 1126

[Sir George Young] rates and currencies. The Government are aware of this, but there is no joined-up reaction to it. Are we coping who fund a large part of that. If he has read the Hutton with it and doing our best to combat it? May we have an report, he will see that there is a strong rationale for early debate, so that we can enlighten some Members rebalancing the current arrangements, as the cost to the on just how worrying this economic warfare is? taxpayer has increased by about a third in the last 10 years, to some £32 billion. We want public sector Sir George Young: We are debating the Finance Bill pensions to remain the best. We do not want a race to for two days next week, including on Third Reading. It the bottom, but we must find a sustainable way of may be appropriate for the hon. Gentleman to raise the funding them in the long term. subject in those debates. However, in the meantime I will alert my Treasury colleagues to his concern and see Jon Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): The Leader of whether we can take any additional action to prevent the House will be aware of the Government’s upcoming the sort of manipulation to which he refers. cuts to provision for ESOL—English for speakers of other languages. He will also be aware that the Minister Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning May we have a debate on the lack of transparency in the has promised an equality impact assessment. Can he annual accounts of many arm’s length bodies? For guarantee that that impact assessment is published before example, the East of England Ambulance Service NHS the recess and that there is a debate on its findings on Trust increased its management costs by 23% in its last the Floor of the House? accounts, but when I asked for an explanation, I was told that I would have to submit a freedom of information Sir George Young: The first of those two requests request. Can my right hon. Friend look at how we may be easier to deliver than the second. I cannot better hold to account senior executives for the spending promise a debate on the Floor of the House, but I will choices that they make? see whether publication will be made promptly, as the hon. Gentleman has just said. Sir George Young: I am sorry that my hon. Friend has had that problem. His request sounds perfectly reasonable, Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): May I return to the and it is one that someone charged with safeguarding thorny issue of IPSA? I recently submitted two duplicate the taxpayer’s interests is entitled to make. I would hope invoices to IPSA by mistake. Despite having the same that we can get the information that he has asked for supplier name, the same date and the same reference, without going down the FOI route, and I will ask my and despite being for the same amount, those receipts right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health to were paid by IPSA. The first that IPSA knew about it see whether he can make some progress on it. was when I turned up in its office with a cheque. Not only was I advised by an IPSA member of staff that Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): The Leader there was no system in place to pick up such duplication, of the House will recall that, last week, I raised the issue I was also advised that the system ran by “trusting of the proposed takeover by B&Q of a Focus store in Members”. Given the urgent importance of reassuring my constituency. He very kindly offered to speak to the the public about the way our expenses system operates, Office of Fair Trading that day about what appeared to may we have an urgent debate about what we are be its tardy decision making. He did so, and I am spending £6 million of taxpayers’ money on? grateful to him. The OFT has now told us that a decision will be reached by 5 August, but that will be too late for the employees who will be made redundant Sir George Young: My hon. Friend has not used the on 18 July in my constituency, and in the constituencies fifth amendment to protect himself from self-incrimination. of 30 other Members including the Prime Minister, at a I hope that there will be no dire consequences from his cost of £4.5 million in unnecessary redundancy and double claiming for the same item. He will know that welfare payments. I realise that I am being greedy with there is a liaison group between the House and IPSA. A the Leader of the House’s time, but will he speak again number of my hon. Friends sit on it, and he may like to to the OFT and ask if it could possibly move the raise the matter with them. The House has just approved decision forward, so as to avoid unnecessary heartache the estimates for IPSA for the current year. If he looks for the employees and unnecessary costs to the public at the suggestions that were made alongside that, he will purse? see that SCIPSA, the committee that gives money to IPSA—[Laughter]—I am sorry: the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority— Sir George Young: Of course I understand the concerns has made some suggestions about IPSA continuing to of those who might lose their jobs, and the hon. Lady’s raise its game and improve the quality of its performance. anxiety to bring the matter to a swift conclusion. I was pleased to hear that last week’s exchange produced results. Without making any promises, I hope that she is Mr Speaker: What a master of understatement the on a roll and I will have another go this week. Leader of the House is. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): Will the Leader Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The of the House grant us a debate or a statement on the Leader of the House will know that there is increasing effect of entrepreneurs’relief, particularly on manufacturing evidence of economic and financial warfare being waged firms in my constituency, in encouraging those against companies in this country—indeed, against who want to expand their businesses and invest in Governments—involving the manipulation of interest growth? 1127 Business of the House30 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 1128

Sir George Young: That is indeed an important engine Sir George Young: We have not come to a final for growth, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for decision on business rates, as I said earlier. However, if raising the matter. He will know that we have raised the local authorities decided to keep the business rate, there lifetime limit on capital gains qualifying for entrepreneurs’ would still have to be a system of equalisation to ensure relief to £10 million, and I hope that that will make the that those local authorities with fewer than average UK a more attractive location for entrepreneurs by businesses did not suffer unduly. encouraging those who want to expand their business and reinvest in growth to do so here. Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): May we have a debate in the House on bureaucracy in the NHS, and a Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): May we have statement about the reduction in the number of managers a statement on Ministers’ replies to Members’ since the general election? correspondence? I have received an e-mail from the Under-Secretary of State for International Development, Sir George Young: I would welcome such a debate the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr O’Brien), in which because, since the general election, we have reduced the he says that it is not the policy of the Department for number of managers in the NHS by 4,000, reversing International Development to respond to “similar items” the record of the previous Administration, under whom of correspondence that MPs send to it, because the number of managers increased at six times the rate “this places a burden on DFID’s resources which would be better of the number of nurses. directed towards the poor.” I do not recall the code of conduct on Ministers replying Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): Will the to Members’ correspondence containing that kind of Leader of the House have a word with the Home provision, and I would be grateful if we could have a Secretary about her failure to answer named-day questions? statement and perhaps some consultation on this matter, The shadow Home Secretary has tabled 15 questions to clarify the extent to which Ministers can pick and over the past couple of weeks, only two of which have choose to which MPs’ letters they reply. been replied to. Is not that a distressing return on the number of questions tabled, given that the convention Sir George Young: Every Member of Parliament is is that named-day questions should be answered on the entitled to a prompt and courteous response from Ministers named day? to the letters that they send, but if a Member sent 1,500 identical cards to a Minister, for example, it would be Sir George Young: I will raise that matter with the reasonable for the Minister to send one reply and ask Home Secretary, who might possibly be in the House the Member to notify the constituents who had sent all quite soon. It is indeed the objective of every Minister the cards to him. It does not follow that every single to reply to questions on the named day, and if that is identical letter sent to a Minister is entitled to a personal not possible, they will send a holding reply, but I will reply, but each individual subject should certainly get raise the matter with my right hon. Friend to see whether an answer from the appropriate Minister. we can get a prompt response to the outstanding questions.

Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Earlier this Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): Small and week, I accompanied my constituent, Karen Kannair, medium-sized enterprises in Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft to meet officials from the Department for Education, to are working hard to pull together with the local enterprise whom she gave a harrowing description of the treatment partnership to put forward a bid for an enterprise zone that she and her son had received after he had been in our area. Bearing in mind all the work that they are excluded from school some two and a half years ago. doing, may we have a debate in the House on what small Could we find time for an urgent debate on the performance and medium-sized enterprises are doing for the economy of local education authorities in dealing with excluded and what the Government are doing to assist their pupils? development?

Sir George Young: It is important that pupils who are Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s excluded from school should not lose contact with advocacy of an enterprise zone for his constituency, and mainstream education, and that they should get back I commend his zeal in bringing it forward. There might into it as soon as possible. The experimental statistics be an opportunity on Monday and Tuesday next week published today show that pupils in alternative provision to discuss the incentives that we have produced, including perform significantly less well in GCSEs than those a moratorium on domestic regulations, abolishing the who are in mainstream schools. These are vulnerable jobs tax, the small business rate relief, the enterprise children, and they need the support to which my hon. finance guarantee, the growth capital fund and many Friend refers. We set out in our White Paper last year similar initiatives. our plans to increase the autonomy, accountability and diversity of alternative provision in order to help to Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Following the drive up standards. announcement by Scottish Power of its price increase of up to 20%, consumer organisations have said that, Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): should other utility companies follow suit, 4 million May we please have a debate on the effect of the Deputy households in the UK could be driven into fuel poverty. Prime Minister’s announcement yesterday about business Will the Leader of the House arrange for a debate on rates? It seems to me that the better off areas of the electricity market reform, so that we can address the country will become still better off, and that the poorer vertical integration of the companies and the lack of areas such as my constituency will suffer even more. transparency, and ensure that that does not happen? 1129 Business of the House30 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 1130

Sir George Young: There will be an opportunity a the case that, as we said, the first payments would be week today, on 7 July, to address those specific questions made in the first half of this year. Those first payments to my hon. Friends in the Department of Energy and are now going out, so we have honoured the commitment Climate Change. We have retained a number of measures we made to providing a transparent and fair system of to help to tackle fuel poverty, including cold weather compensating those who lost money in Equitable Life. payments and winter fuel payments, and a Bill is going through Parliament that will enable people to insulate Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): The Government have their homes without having to dig into their pockets. now confirmed that £115 million will be made available There will also be a statement in due course on electricity to schools and colleges to disburse through discretionary market reform. learner support awards and bursaries rather than the £180 million that was originally promised. Will the Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): May we Leader of the House arrange for the Secretary of have a debate on Tuesday’s higher education White State to make a statement on why those amounts have Paper? Yesterday, I welcomed representatives of Drexel changed? university, one of the leading universities in the United States, to my constituency. They are looking to set up an operation in the United Kingdom with a UK institution. Sir George Young: My right hon. Friend the Secretary Is not the Government’s policy of freeing up institutions of State for Education did indeed make a statement to expand and allowing new entrants into the market when he announced the transfer from education the best way to ensure that students get value for money maintenance allowance to the discretionary learner fund, in higher education? so we have already had that exchange. There might be an opportunity at questions on Monday 11 July to press Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is absolutely the Secretary of State even further on the matter. right. Perhaps he was in the House on Tuesday, when the Minister for Universities and Science, my right hon. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Will the Leader of Friend the Member for Havant (Mr Willetts) made a the House make a statement about the training of hon. statement—which was well received, certainly on this Members in matters of procedure, which can be confusing side of the House—offering a sustainable future for and difficult not just for new Members like me? I higher education, giving more power to students to noticed on Report of the Finance Bill that there were choose their university and rewarding those universities starred amendments and new clauses from more senior that perform well. Also, looking ahead, we will strike a Members of the House, so a general refresher might be fairer balance between taxpayers and students. worth while. Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): Sir George Young: We are debating the Finance Bill I recently met Frankie, a Whizz-Kidz ambassador in again next week and I hope that there will be no Liverpool, who told me about the situation that he is repetition of this week’s inexplicable incident. The official facing. He finishes school this year, but he still does not Opposition failed to table an amendment in time on know whether the course that he has applied for at the their flagship policy; they then refused to vote on an local college will be made available. He will not find that identical amendment tabled by another party, only to out until August. His travel to the youth club has been vote for some anodyne alternative. I hope that there will cut, and his opportunities to socialise have been significantly be no repetition of that embarrassment from the Opposition scaled back. Frankie and his family face an uncertain Front-Bench team. future. May we please have an urgent debate on how the Government’s cuts are specifically affecting disabled older teens? Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): May we please have a debate on the funding of political parties? Sir George Young: In taking the difficult decisions At a time of industrial action, it would be useful to that we had to take to get the deficit under control, we tease out the influence that trade unions can have on have sought to protect vulnerable members of the some parties’ policies. community—people who suffer from disabilities, the elderly and the sick; we protected the NHS budget—and Sir George Young: As my hon. Friend knows, Sir in our reforms to welfare, we are also seeking to protect Christopher Kelly and the Committee on Standards in people such as Frankie. Inevitably, some reductions in Public Life are looking at the important issue of party public expenditure have had to be made and it would funding. My own view is that it is unhealthy that one help if the hon. Lady’s party would at some point political party is dependent for about 87% of its funding indicate how it would have responded to the fiscal on the trade unions. challenge that we inherited.

Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): From today, Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): May we victims of the Equitable Life scandal—in Tamworth have a debate on the reform of the laws relating to and around the country—begin to receive justice as the industrial action? The nation is clearly opposed to the compensation scheme begins to pay out. Following teachers’ unions going out on strike when only one years of vacillation from previous Governments, may we third of their members voted. have a statement or a debate to mark that milestone? Sir George Young: My hon. Friend reminds us that Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is right. In 13 months less than 20% of the overall PCS membership voted for we have done more for Equitable Life pensioners than strikes, which is less than 10% of the civil service. Only the previous Administration did in 13 years. It is indeed two teaching unions have a mandate for strike action 1131 Business of the House30 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 1132 and the turnout in both ballots was low. As I said in The coalition Government have taken action to help. As response to an earlier question, we have no current he knows, average pump prices are approximately 6p a plans to legislate, but we are keeping the matter under litre lower than they would have been if we had continued review. with the previous Government’s escalator.

Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): My Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): Will the Leader of constituency carries the unenviable burden of having the House find time for a debate on the importance of one of the highest rates of empty shops. Will the Leader the food and drink manufacturing sector to the UK of the House facilitate a debate on what measures could economy, which would enable Members to explain the be introduced to encourage local authorities to provide importance of the sector locally and allow me personally free car parking, which would be a fillip not just to city to trumpet the quality and value for money of Thorntons centres, but to high streets and small independent retailers? products?

Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s Sir George Young: If my hon. Friend is ingenious, he concern. The coalition Government are very committed might be able to get into the debate on the Finance Bill to localism and devolving decisions such as whether to next Monday or Tuesday to draw attention to the extend free local car parking to local councils and local importance of the food and drink sector to the national authorities, which are best placed to take such initiatives economy.Alternatively, he could put in for an Adjournment forward. If he has not already done so, my hon. Friend debate on our last day, which, if the Backbench Business should get in touch with his local authority to see Committee so decides, would give him more time to whether it will take the action that he advocates. amplify his point.

Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Following my question Several hon. Members rose— to the Prime Minister yesterday, may we have an urgent debate on petrol prices and how they are hitting public Mr Speaker: Order. We come now to a statement by services? Last year, the police spent £78 million on the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice. motoring fuel and it could hit £90 million this year—money that could have been spent on policing. The Royal College of Nursing says that 60,000 nurses now subsidise Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): On a point of order, NHS petrol bills out of their own pockets. Does my Mr Speaker. right hon. Friend agree that high petrol prices are becoming a real threat to front-line services? Mr Speaker: Order. Points of order come after statements. I really must encourage better timekeeping by those Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is right. Our on the Treasury Bench. Ministers should be here in time petrol prices have begun to come down over recent to make their statements; this is a serious matter, not a weeks, and we all hope that that initiative can be sustained. laughing matter. 1133 30 JUNE 2011 Police Detention 1134

Police Detention There must be proper rules governing the detention of suspects before charge, which was what Parliament intended more than 25 years ago. This judgment upsets 12.56 pm a careful balance that has stood for a quarter of a The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick century and impedes the police from doing their job. Herbert): I apologise, Mr Speaker. That is why it must be reversed, so I commend this statement to the House. With permission, I would like to make a statement on the recent High Court ruling on police bail. The Home Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) Secretary is in Madrid at a G6 meeting. (Lab): That was an astonishing statement from the Since the Police and Criminal Evidence Act came Minister. I do not even have a copy of more than two into effect in January 1986, the police, the Government pages of it, which I was given as he walked into the and the courts have all agreed that the time suspects Chamber, and I believe that other Members do not have spend on bail does not count towards the maximum copies at all. I was advised by the Minister’s office that permitted period of detention without charge. For more lawyers were still checking it. He was very lucky that an than 25 years, this sensible and uncontested way of urgent question was asked this morning, because otherwise working has enabled the police to investigate crimes and he would not have had a statement to give on what keep the public safe. is a very serious issue, six weeks after the original On 5 April, a district judge refused a routine application judgment. What has the Home Office been doing in the from Greater Manchester police for a warrant for the meantime? further detention of a murder suspect, Paul Hookway. As the Minister said, this is a deeply serious situation On 19 May, Mr Justice McCombe confirmed the district for the police, prosecutions, and, ultimately, justice for judge’s decision in a judicial review. Mr Justice McCombe’s victims. Twenty-five years of police practice and legal written judgment was made available on 17 June. Since interpretation have been overturned. We understand then, Home Office officials and lawyers have been working that the ruling has immediate effect, and we agree that with the police, the Crown Prosecution Service and the Minister that the previous position must be restored others to evaluate the scale of the problem that the at the earliest opportunity. The ruling affects 80,000 judgment presents. suspects who are currently on police bail, but prosecutions When the scale of the problem became clear, Ministers and trials could be put at risk if the police have not were alerted on 24 June. If any suspect is released on acted in line with the current law. bail, the judgment means that they are, in effect, still in I have been advised that Home Office officials were police detention. That means that time spent on bail informed of the judgment soon after it was made on should count towards any maximum period of pre-charge 19 May. Can the Minister confirm that? He said that detention. The judgment goes against a quarter of a they had the written judgment on 17 June, 13 days ago. century of legal understanding and accepted police What have the Government been doing since then? Why practice, and as the Home Secretary said yesterday, it is it still not clear what this means for the police? Some causes us grave concern. forces believe that it affects custody but not bail conditions, The police believe that the judgment will have a while others fear that it means that bail conditions no serious impact on their ability to investigate crime. In longer apply. That could include bail conditions affecting some cases, it will mean that suspects who would normally whether or not a suspect can interfere with witnesses. be released on bail are detained for longer. It is likely Has definitive guidance been circulated among the police? that there will not be enough capacity in most forces to If not, why not? detain everybody in police cells. In other cases, it risks During the 13-day period since the written judgment impeding the police to such an extent that the investigation was made available, has the Home Secretary or the will have to be stopped because the detention time has Attorney-General even looked at the legal position or run out. The judgment will also affect the ability of the sought legal advice, rather than simply leaving it to the police to enforce bail conditions. police to take a view? The police need to know what to We cannot, must not and will not ask the police to do do 43 days after the original judgment was delivered. their work with one hand tied behind their backs, so What has been done to get the judgment suspended in they have our full support in appealing the decision to the meantime? I understand that this morning the Supreme the Supreme Court. With about 80,000 suspects on Court granted leave to appeal. Has it been able to police bail around the country, however, we cannot introduce a stay of judgment? Did anyone apply to it afford to wait for a Supreme Court ruling. That is why for a stay of judgment? Was it asked to conduct an the Association of Chief Police Officers has today expedited hearing in order to introduce a stay of judgment? advised the Home Secretary that new legislation is Was an appeal made to Mr Justice McCombe to stay needed. his initial judgment pending further appeal from the We agree with that assessment, so we will urgently Supreme Court? It is not good enough to say that this is bring forward emergency legislation to overturn the a matter for the police, because it has implications for ruling. That emergency legislation will clarify the position justice throughout the country. and provide assurance that the police can continue to Why did it take so long to conclude that emergency operate on the basis on which they have operated for legislation was needed, and why has no work been done many years. We are also seeking urgent further advice to sort that out? The Leader of the House has just stood on how to mitigate the practical problems caused by the up and given the House the business for the next two Court’s decision in this interim period. I welcome the weeks. Will he have to stand up again and tell us what support that the Opposition Front-Bench team has the business for the next few days will be so that the already promised for this action. Government can get the emergency legislation through? 1135 Police Detention30 JUNE 2011 Police Detention 1136

We have had no discussions with business managers, work carefully with them in relation to the guidance and I have seen no draft emergency legislation. Why that will need to be given to forces following the further was legislation not drawn up 43 days ago as a contingency advice received from the QC. measure to deal with these extremely serious circumstances? There seems to be general agreement that this was an Will the emergency legislation be retrospective? How unusual judgment, which overturned 25 years of legal will it deal with the cases that are currently being understanding. We cannot wait for a Supreme Court handled in police custody centres and police stations decision, and emergency legislation is therefore sensible across the country? What guidance are the police being and appropriate. I am glad that that is also the view of given on whether they are jeopardising prosecutions the official Opposition, and we are grateful for their through decisions that they are making in custody cells support in expediting it. every day and every hour across the country? When will we see the legislation? I have already told the Home Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): There Secretary that we will support emergency legislation to is a clear and urgent need for emergency legislation. restore the previous position, and we will seek to do Does the Minister expect permanent legislation to be that as soon as possible. included in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill? Pending the implementation of emergency I know that the Home Secretary is in Spain today, but legislation, what emergency measures are being considered, she was not there yesterday, and she should have made such as the creation of additional temporary cell capacity? the decision at a time when she could come to the House and announce it. There has been considerable Nick Herbert: We expect the emergency legislation to chaos in the Home Office, not just this week but for the be the last word on the subject. We do not believe that it past few weeks. The situation is ludicrous: someone will be complicated to return to the status quo ante, whom the Home Office tried to ban from the country which, after all, was the basis of legal understanding for has sauntered in, while people whom it is trying to put 25 years. We do not think that it would be possible to in custody are sauntering out. There is a worrying level leave the matter to an amendment to one of the Bills of carelessness, drift and incompetence. Justice for victims that are already before the House, because we would and protection of witnesses are too important to be not secure that legislation soon enough. It is therefore handled in this way, and the Home Secretary should get appropriate for us to consider introducing legislation a grip. much more swiftly. As I said in my statement, we are urgently seeking Nick Herbert: My understanding is that there is further advice on how to mitigate the impact on the widespread agreement and concern about the impact of police. We will do everything that is lawfully possible to the decision, and that we should proceed on the basis of ensure that they can conduct their business and deal sensible discussion. We are grateful for the Opposition’s with the interviewing of suspects, and that is the subject support in that regard. of ongoing discussion with the Association of Chief The right hon. Lady asked about the Home Office’s Police Officers. role since the judgment. Mr Justice McCombe delivered his judgment in the divisional court in Manchester on Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I thank the Minister 19 May, but it was an oral judgment. The Greater for his statement. These must be busy times at the Manchester police forwarded a copy of it, but only Home Office, but I am disappointed that there has not when we received the written judgment, on 17 June, been a statement on the Sheikh Raed Salah case as the were we able to begin to ascertain the extent of its implications of that are equally important. effect, and, in particular, only then did it begin to The Minister is absolutely right that there must be become clear that its implications went beyond the issue emergency legislation, and it would be useful if copies of warrants of further detention. Since then the Home of the draft legislation were sent as soon as possible to Office, the Crown Prosecution Office and officials of the shadow Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the the Association of Chief Police Officers have been Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford engaged in a constant dialogue in an attempt to understand (Yvette Cooper), and the Home Affairs Committee, so the detailed implications, which are complex. On 24 June—- that we can all help the Government to get this legislation last Friday—the leaders of ACPO met senior Home through. There is one issue, however: what happens in Office officials, and at that point Ministers were informed. the next eight or so days? Do we accept the ACPO ACPO then commissioned advice from a leading QC. guidance, or are we saying that individual forces might The right hon. Lady asked about the guidance issued to act differently—I understand that the Met and West police officers; ACPO issued interim guidance to all Yorkshire police are proposing different responses to chief constables at that point. this situation—so may we have a clear and definitive Last Wednesday ACPO commissioned additional advice statement on the steps the police should take? The from Steven Kovats QC, which it received this morning. Home Secretary will appear before the Committee on I hope to explain some of the circumstances to which Tuesday, so perhaps we can explore these matters with the right hon. Lady referred. It was this morning that her then. ACPO presented its case for urgent legislation to Ministers, and it was therefore this morning that it was appropriate Nick Herbert: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for us to come to the House to say what would be the for his support for introducing emergency legislation, right thing for us to do. We will seek to put the legislation and we will, of course, discuss that as fully as possible before the House as soon as possible, following discussion with him and with the shadow Secretary of State, as through the usual channels. The matter is of concern to that is the right way to proceed. The Metropolitan the police, but it is appropriate for us to continue to police has issued interim guidance on the basis of the 1137 Police Detention30 JUNE 2011 Police Detention 1138

[Nick Herbert] am also confident that it was right for us then to come to the House once we had established a course of judgment, and that is available to other forces. However, action, so that we could inform the House of the right we will have further discussions with ACPO about what way to proceed. the appropriate guidance should be for all forces in this interim period, so that it is consistent with our and their Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): The Minister’s obligation to comply with the law as now stated by the comments have revealed an extraordinary degree of High Court. We will do everything possible to mitigate complacency in the Home Office about this very serious the impact of the judgment, because we want to ensure situation. Did Home Office officials know about this that the police are not impeded in going about their judgment in May? If so, why did they not alert Ministers, business and in dealing with criminals. and when Ministers first found out about the judgment, why did they not immediately come to this House and Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): Will make a statement and talk to the Opposition about how my right hon. Friend reflect on the relative roles of to get emergency legislation through to rectify the situation? himself, Home Office officials and ACPO in respect of Why has the Minister waited for so long? the advice just given to the House, and will he agree to publish the legal advice that has been provided—through Nick Herbert: I answered those points in terms in my ACPO in this instance, it appears? Will he also reflect previous answer, and I have nothing to add. It was on the development in the use of police bail over the important for us to establish what the implications of past 25 years? Clearly, it has been accepted practice, but the judgment were first at official level, working with is there any evidence of a trend of suspects being put on ACPO, and then on the basis of proper legal advice. It police bail often for many months, or even years, when was only when officials received the written judgment of the police might instead be taking a more expeditious the High Court that it became clear that the original approach to their cases? judgment might have an implication beyond that which was initially understood. There have been discussions Nick Herbert: I am not aware of any such trend, nor during the course of the week about the appropriate am I aware of any concern in this House, or more way to proceed, and I have sought to update the House widely, that gave rise to the decision. The judge’s decision once we knew the course of action, so as to bring in this instance was based on the narrow case that was clarity. I repeat that I do not regard this as a matter for before the court. So far as I am aware, there has not partisan difference. We are grateful to the Opposition been any wider debate suggesting concern about the for adopting a sensible approach to this matter and for way police bail has been operated over the past 25 years. supporting emergency legislation. We do not need to That is why we feel that it is appropriate to introduce disagree on this. emergency legislation. I doubt that it would be proper for ACPO to publish its legal advice, which it has Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I thank both my right received from two Queen’s counsels, but I can confirm hon. Friend for the statement and the Government for that ACPO has written to the Home Secretary to confirm their prompt response in terms of the emergency legislation. its view that emergency legislation is required. It has Will he ensure that when this legislation is passed it will given a summary of counsels’ advice, which was given give a clear signal to judges such as the one who made to it since 23 June, and that summary was sufficient to the decision that we must be on the side of the victim, persuade it and us that it is necessary to move forward not the criminal? in the way I have suggested. Nick Herbert: I will not comment on the specific Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): First, why did it points in that question, for reasons I am sure my hon. take six weeks for Home Office officials to make the Friend will understand, but, of course, in general it is Minister aware of the judgment? Secondly, will the important both that we have a criminal justice system legislation be retrospective? Thirdly, will he advise police that properly reflects the interests of victims and that authorities, including mine in north Wales, that are justice is done. The police bail system had been operating currently mothballing police cells—such as in Mold in for 25 years in a manner with which, as far as I am my constituency—on what action to take in respect of aware, everybody was content, and this judgment alone maintaining operational police cells in case he does not has, effectively, sought to undo that. That is why we provide the legislation or win any appeal? think it right to bring forward this legislation. Nick Herbert: I have answered questions about when Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): Although the it became clear that this case was of concern. There was emergency legislation is welcome, police throughout the undoubtedly increasing concern among ACPO country are faced with the problem of administering representatives and, when they met Crown Prosecution the current law. What advice have the Minister or the Service and Home Office officials, the full implications Home Office given to police authorities about reviewing of the judgment became clear. The right hon. Gentleman the availability of police cells and what estimate has asked why we did not do more, but, as I have explained, been made of any additional costs? If there are additional Ministers were not alerted to this by officials until costs, will the Home Office give additional grants to the 24 June, which was last Friday, and that followed police so that they can cope? deliberations that officials had been having with ACPO after it, in turn, had received its written advice. I am Nick Herbert: We are seeking to bring forward legislation confident that ACPO has been working properly both to deal with the problem sufficiently swiftly to avoid any in talking with officials in order to understand the such impact that may be caused in the interim. We will implications and also in taking formal legal advice not also seek to mitigate the situation to the greatest possible once, but twice, about what those implications were. I extent, and I will discuss that with ACPO. Clearly there 1139 Police Detention30 JUNE 2011 Police Detention 1140 are implications in respect of resources and also for what the full implications of this judgment were before defendants, because as I said in my statement, it is they came to Ministers with advice, because they needed possible that people will be detained in custody for to be able to advise Ministers properly on the extent of longer, so the judgment’s practical effects will have the implications. We will continue to work very closely implications for both civil liberties and the sensible with ACPO to do everything we can to support the operation of police bail. police in doing the job that they have to do.

Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Does my right Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I think hon. Friend agree that judgments such as this, which fly that what hon. Members are trying to get at is this: in the face of common sense, run the risk of bringing when the Home Office knew in May why could action our justice system into disrepute? How can someone not have been taken right away to set something in who is free possibly be judged to be inside? At this rate, motion? all our prisons are going to be empty. Nick Herbert: I say to hon. Members that it would be Nick Herbert: I think that the best way that I could better if we dealt with the substantive issue, because I respond would be by quoting the legal expert Professor have repeated on a number of occasions the timeline Michael Zander QC, whom my hon. Friend may have and the reasons why. In particular, I have discussed the heard on the “Today” programme this morning. He need to take legal advice to understand the implications said: of a complex judgment that was simply not expected. “The only justification for the ruling is a literal interpretation That is why ACPO has taken two sets of legal advice, of the Act which makes no sense”. and it was this morning that ACPO formally asked us for emergency legislation. I hope that that explains to Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): For the third the hon. Gentleman the sequence of events and why we time, was the Home Office advised of the oral judgment have come to the House today to explain what we want in May, yes or no? to do. Nick Herbert: For the third time, I say to the hon. Gentleman that I have explained the timeline in detail. David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): Our criminal When he looks at the record, he will see that I said—I justice system costs about 10 times more than similar am happy to repeat this—that Greater Manchester criminal justice systems in similarly sized countries, yet police approached the Home Office in May, but we judgments such as the one yesterday, which are perverse received the written judgment from the court only on 17 and self-regarding, are causing this sort of reaction by June. Therefore, action was taken as soon as possible to Government. When are we going to consider more understand the effects and seek advice once that written structural reform of a system that is barely fit for judgment was taken. purpose?

Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): This is an Nick Herbert: Without commenting on the specific important point, and information from the House of judgment, I agree with my hon. Friend to the extent Commons Library suggests that Home Office officials that we do have one of the most expensive criminal did know in May. Will the Minister give a clear answer justice systems in the world, and that is why we seek to the House on whether that is the case, yes or no? reform of the system across the piece. It also explains the important reforms that my right hon. and learned Nick Herbert: I do not understand why Labour Members Friend the Lord Chancellor has introduced in his Legal are trying to pursue a point that I have already answered Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill and on a number of occasions. I am happy to repeat that the reforms that we seek on enhancing the accountability officials were informed in May about the oral judgment, of the police. We will have more to say in due course but it was only in June that we received the written about the efficiency of the criminal justice system and judgment of the High Court judge. Officials then began how we seek to drive forward on value for money and a to appreciate that the implications extended beyond more effective justice system. that which was originally understood from the oral judgment. I am happy to go on repeating that timeline to hon. Members for as long as they seek to ask these Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab): The House of questions. Commons Library advises that the Supreme Court has not stayed the judgment this morning and that nobody Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): I am sure that we applied for a stay. Can the Minister confirm that that is all appreciate that these legal judgments can be complicated correct? and that their full implications can take some time to work through, but does my right hon. Friend agree that Nick Herbert: I understand from the Solicitor-General there is a bit of concern about how long this took to that that was the case this morning, but I should say to reach Ministers? Is there perhaps scope for reviewing the hon. Gentleman that every effort has been made by the interaction between his officials and ACPO to see Greater Manchester police to appeal against this whether a better process can be put in place to deal with judgment—the force did this from the original court of the unlikely event that something as horrible as this ever first hearing to the High court—and that the Government happens again? are now making every effort to overturn this judgment. That is precisely why we wish to introduce emergency Nick Herbert: I note my hon. Friend’s point, but I legislation; we do not think that a recourse to further think that officials wished to ascertain, with ACPO and legal process will give sufficient certainty or will deal in consultation with the Crown Prosecution Service, with the issue in the time that we think is necessary. 1141 Police Detention 30 JUNE 2011 1142

Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): As the Minister Points of Order has described, some 80,000 people are affected by this judgment. No doubt many of them will be consulting their Member of Parliament this weekend and in the 1.27 pm future, so can we have some urgent clarification and guidance from the Home Office about what to say to Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): On a point of order, these people? Mr Deputy Speaker. My constituency has in the past year enjoyed a number of visits from other Members of Nick Herbert: As I said in my statement, we are the House—that is understandable because Lincoln is a urgently seeking advice so that we are able to update the beautiful city with many beautiful people. Visitors have police, through ACPO, on how we intend to mitigate included: the right hon. Members for Leeds Central the impact of this judgment. I am happy to ensure that (Hilary Benn) and for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham); the House is updated as well. my right hon. Friends the Members for North Somerset (Dr Fox), for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) and for Witney (Mr Cameron); and my hon. Friends the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson) and for Aldershot (Mr Howarth). Although I was notified of some ministerial visits—on one occasion this occurred at 10.30 pm on a Sunday evening for a visit that was to take place less than 12 hours later, which was timely perhaps but not within the lexicon of due diligence—I, like many colleagues, do not always receive such a courtesy from Members from all parts of this House. I recognise that, in response to a point of order raised in 2008 by the then right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham, the previous Speaker drew a distinction between “ministerial business” and “party activities” in relation to constituency visits— Opposition Members are quick to quote that to me. I am also aware that yesterday my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) referred to this matter in a similar point of order, although I note that he was lukewarm in his welcome for 50 Members from our coalition partners visiting Shipley. However, I feel that such a courtesy to any Member of this House should be extended to include all visits from every Member of the House, regardless of nature, unless undertaken in a strictly private capacity. On a number of occasions I have attended constituency events, business visits—

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I have got the message. Members are supposed to keep points of order short and we are in danger of having an Adjournment debate on this. My ruling from the Chair is that, as the House is well aware, it is convention that right hon. and hon. Members allow Members in those constituencies being visited due notification before the visit takes place. That has always been the case and I hope that convention will be the norm.

Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. At Prime Minister’s questions yesterday, in response to my question on the planned changes to vetting and barring in the Protection of Freedoms Bill, the Prime Minister claimed that “anyone who has criminal convictions”—[Official Report,29June 2011; Vol. 530, c. 953.] will be barred from working with children. However, I have checked clause 66 of the Protection of Freedoms Bill, which clearly removes the current procedure of automatically barring someone who has, for example, raped a child. Given the concern in the country about that loophole, may I seek your guidance on how to correct the record? 1143 Points of Order 30 JUNE 2011 1144

Mr Deputy Speaker: The hon. Lady has already put Civil List that information on the record and I am sure that she will find other ways to ensure that the necessary correction takes place. 1.31 pm The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) I beg to move, (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Today, That— we have had a statement from the Home Office and a business statement. It is clear from the few answers that (1) new provision be made for, or in connection with, the financial support of the Sovereign and of the heir to the throne; the Home Office Minister was able to give that the Government were not ready to come to the House and (2) any sums payable in respect of provision so made should be would not have done so had we not asked an urgent payable out of money provided by Parliament; question this morning. Is there provision for the Home (3) provision be made enabling the continuation, in the reigns of Her Majesty’s successors, of the payment of the hereditary Office Minister to come back to the House at the end of revenues of the Crown as directed under section 1 of the Civil List the day, once he has clarification from the lawyers on Act 1952; the position for the police as regards the situation under (4) provision be made about allowances and pensions under which they must operate, and is there provision for the the Civil List Acts of 1837 and 1952; Leader of the House to come back and make another (5) any sums payable in respect of such allowances and pensions business statement now that we know that emergency by virtue of any provision so made should be charged on the legislation will definitely be needed and will need to be Consolidated Fund; timetabled as a result? (6) it is expedient to amend the law relating to the financial support of members of the Royal Household. Mr Deputy Speaker: It is up to the Government The Queen’s Gracious Message yesterday invited whether they wish to come back, but that would have to Parliament to consider the provision of support to Her be with the permission of Mr Speaker. I am sure that Majesty, her successors and other members of the royal the right hon. Lady’s message has been heard. household. That reflects a simple fact: the current civil list arrangements are no longer sustainable. They are inflexible, less than transparent and, critically, rely on a reserve of public funds that has steadily been run down and is about to become depleted. As I explained to Parliament last October, we have been working with the royal household to design a new funding arrangement. It will take the form of a new sovereign grant that balances the public interest in our Queen being properly funded to carry out her official duties with the legitimate interest of the taxpayer in proper accountability and value for money. If we approve the motion, the Bill to establish the sovereign grant will be published later today and the House will have an opportunity for a longer and more detailed debate in two weeks’ time, or thereabouts, on Second Reading. We must start our discussion today by recognising the Queen’s long service and immense contribution to public life in our country. I was firmly put in my place on taking office when I was reminded that I was the 19th Chancellor of the Exchequer to serve under Her Majesty. In the 59th year since her accession to the throne and the 86th year of her life, Her Majesty still took part in 440 public engagements. Her visit to Northumberland last week reminds us of the work that she and other members of her family carry out week in, week out to celebrate the achievements of communities across Britain. The royal family also conduct official business on behalf of the Government, leading 2,700 engagements and 150 official overseas visits last year. More than 41,000 people were invited to events at one of the palaces. The monarchy is also a powerful magnet for international tourism, worth, according to one recent estimate, some £500 million to Britain. There is little doubt that our monarchy is a source of great national pride and constitutional strength that is widely admired around the world. As has been recognised for centuries, however, the official duties of the monarch cost money. That is why in the 18th century an historic arrangement was reached between the Government and the monarch. 1145 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1146

[Mr George Osborne] as the National Audit Office’s access to official spending is limited and, although it has carried out value-for-money Until then, the monarchy was indistinguishable from studies, it has no audit function. Critically for today’s the state and both were funded from the income the discussion, it was clear by April 2010 that the royal mediaeval Crown collected from its estates, as well as household’s reserve, which had provided a key component duties, fines and other charges. of its annual income, was running out. In 1760, George III agreed to surrender for his lifetime The previous Government took the decision, which I the full income of the Crown Estate to the Government completely understand, to leave it to the incoming in return for a civil list. That arrangement has been in Government to fix that situation. This is how we propose place ever since and a clear demarcation has long been to do it. We will introduce a new sovereign grant that established between the private income of the royal provides appropriate resources for the Queen to do her family for their private expenditure and the publicly job with dignity but balances that with fairness and funded income, derived from the civil list, for the royal accountability for the taxpayer. It is designed around family’s public duties. three principles. First, it provides the monarchy with sustainable long-term financing free from annual political At the beginning of each reign, Parliament passes a interference, by which I mean the budget can be set for new Civil List Act setting out a fixed annual amount for the long term and automatically uprated without an the whole of that reign. That was done in 1952, when annual political argument. Secondly, it provides flexibility, Her Majesty was proclaimed Queen. By 1972, high so that the royal household can manage its funds efficiently inflation had so eroded the value of the civil list that the to deliver best value for taxpayers. The third principle is system had to change and this House agreed to set fixed that, alongside more sustainable finances with greater annual amounts for 10 years at a time, but this system, flexibility, we will ensure greater accountability and too, had its weaknesses. As inflation was hard to forecast transparency and establish proper checks and balances accurately over a 10-year-period, the civil list ended up to prevent the sums provided from becoming too being too generous at the beginning of the period and excessive. Those are the three principles underpinning too meagre at the end. We are living with those weaknesses our approach. still. Let me now turn to some of the detail, recognising In 1990, the annual civil list amount was set at that in a fortnight’s time or so people will have had a £7.9 million. Additional support was provided to the chance to study the legislation and we will have a longer monarch in the form of two grants in aid, one for travel debate on Second Reading. First, we need a funding and one for maintenance of the royal palaces, but mechanism that prevents the sovereign coming to inflation in the 1990s was falling faster than forecast Parliament each year for resources, and that provides and much of the funding was not spent. Instead, it went funding broadly in line with the growth of the economy. into a reserve, which by 2001 had grown to more than There is such a mechanism at hand, through the historical £37 million. At the beginning of the last decade, it was connection with the Crown Estate, so I propose that decided that rather than set a new civil list, the royal from 2013-14 the royal household receives 15% of the household should run down that reserve to fund its profits made by the Crown Estate in the two years prior. official duties. Thatisanaverage. That means that over the past three years, the royal As the House will know, the Crown Estate is a large household has on average spent about £35 million a commercial property portfolio comprising £6.7 billion year. Let me set out how the spending breaks down for of assets, and 15% of the profits is estimated to provide 2009-10, the most recent year for which there is out-turn a sovereign grant worth about £34 million in 2013-14—in data. There was £7.9 million from the civil list, £6.5 million other words, broadly in line with the latest data on grant from the reserve—that was, of course, public money and reserve spending for 2009-10, which was £34 million. that had been provided earlier—£3.9 million for travel, £400,000 for communications, and £15.4 million for Each year, as the economy grows, the revenues of the royal palace maintenance. It should be made clear that Crown Estate will grow, and the monarch will eventually over recent decades the royal household has done a receive 15% of those revenues using that formula. There huge amount to cut costs and improve the effectiveness will be a cash floor to protect the monarch from cash of its spending. Indeed, total spending has come down cuts, but basically the monarch will do as well as the from £45.8 million in 1991 to an expected £35 million in economy is doing. We will see how the Crown Estate 2010-11. That is a real-terms cut of more than 50% in performs, but the current estimate is that the 15% 20 years. No other Government Department can claim formula will mean that by 2014-15, the last full year of to have achieved anything like that. this Parliament, the monarch will receive about £35million. In cash terms, that is broadly in line with what it has Those efficiencies have continued in recent years. For spent in recent years; in real terms, it is about a 9% cut example, visitor income to the palaces has almost doubled, over the Parliament. commercial lettings at Hampton Court and Kensington We are also preparing a further important improvement palace are up 30% and a two-year pay and recruitment to the current system. Historically, extending funding freeze on the royal household has been imposed. I want arrangements to new monarchs required primary legislation to take this opportunity to thank the current Keeper of within six months of their accession. That arcane process the Privy Purse, Sir Alan Reid, and his predecessors for made it difficult for the royal household to plan for the doing such a good job. future, and for each new monarch to achieve a smooth Despite such impressive efficiencies, however, there transition at the beginning of their reign when so much are problems with the current system. It is very inflexible. else needed to be done. So I propose that the new For example, money saved in travel cannot be used to legislation should be a permanent arrangement that undertake an urgent repair of a property. It is opaque, outlives the sovereign. It will require only an Order in 1147 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1148

Council, rather than a whole new piece of legislation, to proposes to change that. From now on, the NAO will extend the sovereign grant to a new monarch, and I have full access and become the statutory auditor of all hope that Members agree that this is a sensible arrangement. the royal household’s official business and of the sovereign We will also use the Bill to remove an historical reserve. It will also be able to audit the assets used by anomaly about the Duchy of Cornwall. The revenues of the royal household in carrying out its official business. the duchy are used to fund the Prince of Wales in his The National Audit Office will not become the financial official duties, but they are available to him only because auditor of the Queen’s private business, including the he is the Duke of Cornwall, and only the eldest son of Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall, which remain the monarch can be the Duke of Cornwall. So if the private funds. heir to the throne is female or, indeed, a second son or a To ensure accountability to Parliament, the sovereign grandson, they cannot be the Duke of Cornwall, which grant accounts will be laid before the House. The Public means that they would not get the revenues of the Accounts Committee will also be able to conduct hearings duchy. on the royal finances, with the royal household itself We propose to correct that anomaly by making it providing evidence at such hearings. That is a big and clear that in future Duchy of Cornwall revenues will in historic extension of parliamentary scrutiny, and I should effect go to the heir, whether or not they are the Duke of like to thank Her Majesty for opening up the books. Cornwall. There will also be a provision in the Bill to We also propose checks and balances on the size of deal with the situation in which the heir is not yet an the sovereign grant and the reserve. As I said, the adult. sovereign grant will be set at 15% of Crown Estate We will also bring to an end another anomaly by revenues, and that percentage will be reviewed every which certain members of the royal family receive statutory seven years to determine whether it remains appropriate. payments from the Exchequer only for the money to be The review will be conducted by the three current royal reimbursed to the Exchequer by the Queen. Yesterday, I trustees, the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the received a letter from the Keeper of the Privy Purse on Exchequer and the Keeper of the Privy Purse, and every this matter, copies of which will be made available in the seven years we will come to Parliament with the proposed Library after my speech. The new sovereign grant will review and a recommendation on what it should be. replace all statutory payments and annuities to other There cannot be an increase without agreement from members of the royal family, with the exception of the Parliament through the affirmative procedure. The royal Duke of Edinburgh. trustees will also act to make sure that the reserve The second principle behind our proposals is flexibility. remains within its 50% cap by reducing the annual As I have said, under current arrangements, the Queen grant as required, and of course the Treasury has a receives three different blocks of money: a travel grant responsibility each year for ensuring that the sovereign from the Department for Transport; a royal palaces and grant is spent on the official duties that it is supplied to communications grant from the Department for Culture, be spent on. Media and Sport; and the civil list from the Treasury. Those arrangements also deal with the potential situation, That is very inflexible. It means that the royal household which some people predict, of an increase in Crown cannot set its own priorities and flexibly manage its Estate profits from offshore wind activity. Currently, resources in the course of each year, as any modern those revenues are running at about £2.5 million per organisation would want to do. year, but some forecast that they could increase substantially I propose abolishing the three separate blocks and in the 2020s. The 15% formula will be reviewed before merging them into a single grant from the Treasury. As that may come about, and we will not allow revenues has been the case for many decades, any underspent from offshore wind to lead to a disproportionate rise in public money will go into a reserve. This is a sensible revenues to the royal household. We will shortly also set arrangement that will allow the royal household to out proposals, unconnected to this legislation, to make provide for contingencies and to invest in one-off capital sure coastal communities can benefit from the development projects. of the Crown Estate’s marine activities. Unlike previous years, however, we are going to have Today, we recognise the value of the monarchy and a maximum target on that reserve, so that it never rises we put its finances on a sustainable long-term footing. I above about 50% of the annual grant. This means, for have put forward the principles behind our proposed example, that if the annual grant is £34 million, the new sovereign grant, and we will debate those in detail reserve will be limited to £17 million, which is very next month. Our aim is to ensure that the sovereign can much lower than the £37 million that was accumulated carry out her official duties effectively and with dignity, in the reserve 10 years ago. while ensuring accountability to Parliament and value The third principle of our approach is an incredibly for money to the taxpayer. I hope that our proposals important one: accountability to Parliament for the receive all-party support, and I commend the motion to spending of public money, and value for money for the the House. taxpayer. I think that we get excellent value for money from our monarchy. It amounts to 51p per year per person in the United Kingdom, but it is right and 1.47 pm proper that Parliament should exercise oversight. Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op): Although For many years, the National Audit Office and the I, like other Members, have not yet seen the Bill that we Public Accounts Committee have been allowed to conduct are debating today, I thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer value-for-money studies in some areas of royal business, for giving me a briefing a full 48 hours in advance of such as travel or palace maintenance, but not to conduct today’s debate. That allowed me to spend yesterday full audits as they do with other Departments. The Bill preparing my response and the Chancellor to spend the 1149 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1150

[Ed Balls] role in scrutinising the finances of the royal household than in the 1970s. Of course, the one unchanging rock afternoon at centre court, Wimbledon. I know that he across all those turbulent decades has been Her Majesty was in a box; I do not know whether it was the royal the Queen herself, whose grace, wisdom and dedicated box, but there we are. service to our country are second to none. We are debating a very important reform today. As I agree with the Chancellor about this. I know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, it is the most not everyone in this House will agree with what I am significant reform to the financing of the royal household going to say, but it is the view of Her Majesty’s Loyal since the accession of King George III in 1760, when Opposition, as it is the view of the Government, that building upon the Civil List Act 1697—see, my day the monarchy continues, and must continue, to play a yesterday was well spent—tax revenues and Crown land vital role in the affairs of our nation in the new century, revenues, which were hitherto under the independent but that to play this role and to command public control of the sovereign, were surrendered to Parliament support, the royal household must, as the Chancellor in exchange for a civil list then of £800,000. said, be financed in a proper, open and fair way, which This is the first time that Parliament has had the means fair to the royal household and, as the Chancellor chance to debate those matters from first principles said, fair to the taxpayer too. There is a balance to be since the Civil List Act 1972, and, as the then Chancellor struck, as there has been for over 250 years since the of the Exchequer, Anthony Barber, told the Committee 1760 settlement. It is the job of the Prime Minister, the of the Whole House: Chancellor and the Government, with the royal household, “I do not believe that the British people want the work of the to strike a fair and workable balance between the legitimate Royal Family to be cut down. I believe that they want it to be needs of the household and the interests of the taxpayer. continued and performed by the Royal Family.”—[Official Report, It is the responsibility of Her Majesty’s Opposition to 19 January 1972; Vol. 829, c. 551.] scrutinise the actions of the Government to make sure He had already reminded the House that in debating that it is done in a fair and proper way, and it is the job these matters, of this Parliament to oversee these matters. “we are taking decisions about an institution which, just as much I thank the Chancellor for giving me advance notice as Parliament, is an essential part of our history, our constitution of the details; as I said, I have not yet seen the legislation. and our way of life.”—[Official Report, 14 December 1971; I want to assure him that although we have questions to Vol. 828, c. 292.] ask, it is our intention to support him in reforming the Almost 40 years on, that sentiment will find widespread current arrangements. However, it is very important support across all parts of this House. Replying for Her that he seeks to establish a consensus not only across Majesty’s Loyal Opposition, the then shadow Chancellor the Dispatch Box but in the country as a whole in of the Exchequer, the late Lord Jenkins of Hillhead, support of these reforms. At a time when many families was right also to point out: and businesses are under real financial pressure, the “The acceptance and the appreciation of the Monarchical Chancellor will need to provide, today or on Second function does not preclude proper consideration by this House of Reading, some more clarity, detail and reassurance on how financial provision should be made.”—[Official Report, four particular issues that I will set out today in advance 14 December 1971; Vol. 828, c. 383.] of those debates: the level of the sovereign grant; the Again, that is a sentiment that will command support costs of royal security, which, while not covered by from all parts of this House. the sovereign grant itself, are material to these matters; Reading back over those debates from the early 1970s, the mechanism for uprating the sovereign grant; and it was clear that not everyone in the House supported how Parliament scrutinises these new arrangements. the changes. Indeed, I noted that my hon. Friend the On the first issue, the Chancellor and the Treasury Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner)—he is not in his will need to provide some more analysis in advance of seat today—voted against the changes in 1972. I looked Second Reading to explain why, in choosing the figure for his contribution to the debates, but the Hansard of 15% of the profits of the Crown Estate, they believe record does not record a speech by my hon. Friend, just they have set the sovereign grant at the right level. I a series of documented comments from a sedentary understand that, adjusting for the issue of the drawing position; some things do not change. At one point, the down of the reserves, this new arrangement is expected Member for Chelmsford, a future Leader of the House to maintain the current level of spending broadly over of Commons, Norman St John-Stevas, remarked that the course of this Parliament. “criticism of the Monarchy, just as of this House, should be fair It is right that we ask whether this is the right level of and temperate not unfair and prejudiced.”—[Official Report, 21 December 1971; Vol. 828, c. 1357.] expenditure given the costs, pressures and demands on the royal household. On the one hand, the Queen has Hansard shows that the newly elected Member for Bolsover managed to deliver a 50% reduction in the total expenditure simply shouted out, “Why?” It was a relatively tame of the royal household over the past two decades, but intervention. My hon. Friend was just at the foothills of has this process of efficiency savings come to an end, or what has turned out to be a very fine parliamentary are there further savings that can and should be made? heckling career. On the other hand, the wonderfully successful wedding The world, the monarchy and the House have all of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, who start their changed a great deal since the early 1970s. The global visit to Canada today, has thrust the younger members demands of the royal household have grown significantly, of the royal family into the limelight: they are in demand with all that that entails in security and admin burdens. in this country and all round the world. Meanwhile, Her The monarchy has changed greatly—it is now much Majesty the Queen’s historic visit to Ireland and the more open and more scrutinised than ever before—and Duke of Edinburgh’s recent birthday celebrations have Parliament, as the Chancellor said, now has a greater seen their popularity reach new heights, and this can 1151 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1152 only increase as we move towards the diamond jubilee Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): I next year. This necessarily raises issues of resourcing certainly support the comments of the right hon. Gentleman and security. and the Chancellor. Is the right hon. Gentleman at all interested in asking for an assurance or some information The demands on the newly extended royal family are on whether the proposals are likely to influence the higher than they have ever been, and it is right that we investment strategy of the Crown Estate, and what that ask whether the level of the royal grant is commensurate might involve? How much income or growth are required with the high tide mark in the royal family’s responsibilities are often quite important parts of an estate’s strategy. and public appearances. This necessarily raises security issues too. It has been reported that a number of members of the royal family have had their security support Ed Balls: The hon. Gentleman raises an important downgraded, or in some cases removed. We should ask question. It is good that Parliament has an opportunity whether the Chancellor, as part of this process, has to scrutinise the proposals in the coming weeks or examined the impact of these changes on the royal months. We are in an unusual situation. This debate is family and on the public purse, and whether they may not a statement, so it is inappropriate for me to ask have gone too far. Does the current security budget questions of the Chancellor today and expect him to meet the needs of the wider royal family in this more respond. The debate is also on a Bill that we have not demanding environment? At a time when the Home yet seen, which is obviously awkward. I am in a stronger Office and security budget is very stretched and under position to ask detailed questions than everybody else, pressure, it is important that we ask that question. because I knew some of the content of the proposals in advance, but I do not know all the detail. That takes me to the third issue: the arrangements for the uprating of the sovereign grant. The Chancellor’s Today we are setting out questions and issues on proposals imply that the total expenditure of the royal which the Government might want to provide more household will fall in real terms from the beginning to detail between now and the debate on Second Reading. the end of the Parliament, but the proposals also imply We will certainly expect more detail and debate then. I that spending will, from next year, be rising in cash and am sure that in reaching that deal over past months, the in real terms, alongside a 3.2% real-terms rise in the Chancellor and members of the royal household scrutinised total sovereign grant between now and the end of the the kind of issue that the hon. Gentleman raises. However, Parliament. I understand, too, that the Chancellor is we need to find out the detail of that scrutiny, what proposing to put a cash floor on the finances of the analysis was looked at before that agreement was reached, royal household into the future, by however much the and the impact of the proposals on a number of things. profits from the Crown estates fall. I have to say that I mentioned security and the uprating formula, and the this is a generous proposal which suggests that the hon. Gentleman asks the very important question of Chancellor thinks that the efficiency savings have come whether the measures will enhance the Crown Estate or to an end. We also know that the profits of the Crown deter it from seeking to make new investments. I do not Estate could rise. If they rise markedly in future, the know the answer to that, but it is a good issue for House and the country will need an assurance that debate. proper and responsive arrangements are to be put in place. Mr George Osborne: The right hon. Gentleman is right: this is not a statement. It is a rather archaic It is unclear at this stage whether the Chancellor is procedure, but if it is any consolation, it is a lot less saying that any increase in revenues over and above the archaic than it was in the early 1970s—through discussions levels that he is currently predicting will automatically with the Chair, we managed to reduce some of that be passed into the reserves or could lead to higher procedure. I am unable to respond to the points that he expenditure by the royal household. The arrangements makes, but I shall use this intervention to say that I that he set out appear to suggest that if expenditure thank him for the support in principle that he has given were to rise alongside income, there would not then be to the measure. He has asked some good questions, to an automatic review of the percentage of income allocated which I hope to respond on Second Reading, and other through the sovereign grant. If revenues are higher, then hon. Members will raise other issues. I was not able to rather than waiting a full seven years for a review and publish the Bill until this resolution has been passed by risking upward pressure on spending or a repeat of the the House. I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s accumulation of reserves that we saw in the 1990s, is approach. The debate on Second Reading will be an there not a case for a more automatic and immediate opportunity for hon. Members to go into the detail of formula to return those excess revenues to the taxpayer? the Bill after they have studied it. As the Chancellor said, this issue is particularly relevant because the Crown estates are set to see an increase in Ed Balls: I was in no way criticising the approach that their income from the exploitation of wind and tidal has been taken. I was simply noting the rather odd energy in the coming years. Crown Estate income from situation that we are in: I am able to say some things the renewables sector grew by 44% to £2.6m in 2009-10 that, potentially, nobody else fully understands because alone. The annual report of the Crown Estate describes they have not had the briefing from the Chancellor that current growth as “exponential” and growth over the I had, but I totally understand the Chancellor’s position. next 10 years as “significant”. Given the potentially significant change in income from renewables in the Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): As this announcement coming years, it is important that we ensure that the has been described as “important”, a disappointingly proposals are robust as regards a significant rise in small number of Members are in the Chamber. Will my Crown revenues. right hon. Friend tell me when he first heard that this The final issue is parliamentary oversight. announcement would be made today? 1153 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1154

Ed Balls: I do not want to say anything inappropriate, identity, unity and pride. They recognise success and but I believe that it is appropriate for me to say that the contribute to our nation through their public service Prime Minister briefed the Leader of the Opposition on and support for the voluntary sector, which includes these matters a week ago. The Chancellor requested many of the unsung heroes in our local communities. that I meet him, and we met on Tuesday. The clear view The Queen and the royal family also support the vulnerable of the House authorities, the Government and the royal and highlight the need to help in challenging areas of household—I do not know exactly who makes such society. decisions—was that the first public knowledge of the We need only cast our minds back a couple of months proposals should be the making of the gracious request, to the royal wedding of the Duke and Duchess of which happened yesterday. It was then a matter for the Cambridge for an illustration of how much the monarchy Government to respond the next day, which is where we means to everyone in this country, and indeed across are. That is the fullest answer I can give, so there we are. the world. The royal family is a hard-working institution, It is welcome that, for the first time, the National and we are rightly proud of it in this country. As we Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee will heard earlier, the Queen entertains almost 50,000 people have the same powers to audit and scrutinise the royal per year, not to mention the many thousands of people household as any other Government Department. I am she visits around the country and the world. sure that the Chair of the PAC will speak in this debate It is difficult to quantify the full benefit of the royal about that in greater detail. However, there are important family, not just to tourism and our country’s status issues of detail in respect of how the proposals will abroad, but to our national identity, history and work in practice. Will the reports be frequent and traditions—the things that make us proud to be British. timely? Will all necessary information be disclosed to They also support our values of freedom, democracy, the PAC and Parliament? Who will give evidence to the the rule of law and equality. Committee on those matters? More specifically on the motion, the Queen and the In June last year, the Chair of the Commons Public royal household currently receive funding from several Accounts Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member sources, as we have heard. However, following the agreement for Barking (Margaret Hodge), said: made in 1760 in return for the fixed annual payment, “If there is to be serious assessment of efficiency and economy Crown lands are managed on behalf of the Government, and effectiveness (of the monarchy), one has to look at the total and the surplus revenue goes to the Treasury. In the last income and expenditure. It is difficult to look at just a part.” financial year, that amounted to more than £210 million. That has been our situation in recent years. As the Let us be clear about this. In the last financial year, the Chancellor says, even before today’s Bill, our situation Queen and the royal household received £38.2 million is a substantial advance from where we were 40 years in total from the Government, and paid back to the ago. It is true that the original debate was opened by the Treasury £210.7 million in surplus revenue from the Prime Minister and that the Chancellor represented the management of the Crown Estate. In other words, they Government in a Committee of the whole House, but it contributed a net sum to the Government of £172.5 million. is also true that that was pretty much the only opportunity That sounds like a pretty good deal to me. for scrutiny of such matters in the previous 40 years. We Regardless of that net contribution to our economy are therefore in a better place, but the Chair of the PAC over the past decade, the Queen and her staff have made is right to say that we need to go further and to do so in significant efforts to make the royal household more a proper way. I hope that we hear from her today, but it efficient, as the Chancellor said. Head of State expenditure is vital that Parliament has the proper information so has more than halved during that time from the that it can properly and fully scrutinise such significant £87.2 million in 1991-92, to £38.2 million in 2009-10, sums of revenue. and the projected spend this year of £35 million. In conclusion, the Opposition will support the Chancellor As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor outlined in in making necessary reforms, but my advice to him is the Chamber today, a new sovereign support grant will that there is more work to do on providing more detail be introduced to cover funding for the Queen and the and reassurance in advance of the debate on Second royal household. The grant will combine all the sources Reading. It is necessary to build a consensus not only in of funding into one sum covering all the monarchy’s the House but in the country. The case needs to be made official expenditure, not just the expenditure currently that the reforms represent a secure, balanced and fair covered by the civil list. This will simplify an overly way forward for the royal household and the taxpayer complex process for allocating funding—one that is in the years to come. We look forward to playing our haphazard at best. The level of funding will be linked to part in those debates and that scrutiny in the coming the Crown Estate’s surplus and will provide levels similar weeks and months. to those currently received. Surpluses and funding will be held in reserve for future years and levels will be 2.6 pm protected from falling significantly from previous years. Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): I As we heard, full parliamentary scrutiny and audits of want to put this debate in the context of Her Majesty’s all expenditure will continue. The proposals will provide life of service to this country. As we are all aware, the for continuity in the event of the succession of a new Queen fulfils a number of duties as Head of State, monarch so as to ensure certainty and stability for the including her constitutional duties, such as the state royal family and household. I believe completely in and opening of Parliament, giving Royal Assent to legislation, support the three principles that the Chancellor outlined. carrying out state and royal visits overseas, and receiving In summary, the sovereign support grant will give the state and official visitors. However, the Queen, and royal household greater control to manage its funding indeed the whole royal family, play a much greater role and continue its efficiency measures. It will also provide in our society: that of providing a focus for national clarity, flexibility and longer term planning, and will 1155 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1156 make it much easier to communicate the finances of We will show no fear or favour. On the one hand, we the Queen and the royal household to members of the will not give this new area of our work special treatment, public. The sovereign grant Bill is consistent with the but on the other hand, we will take the issues seriously Government’s quest for greater transparency of funding, and ensure that we hold the appropriate accounting which we are trying to get across government, together officers to proper public account. In our approach, we with increased accountability and focus on achieving will examine critically both how the Government allocate value for money for taxpayers. It also, importantly, funding to the royal family and how the royal family continues to support the sovereign in the long term in then spend that allocation. As right hon. and hon. the outstanding contribution that she makes to this Members know, we have a reputation for being country on a daily basis. I therefore support the motion. straightforward, direct and clear in our recommendations, and I hope that both the Chancellor and the royal 2.11 pm household will welcome the new accountabilities and Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab): I join others in the implications for them. You never know, Mr Deputy welcoming today’s announcement and the motion put Speaker, we might, in years ahead, end up praising the forward by the Chancellor with the agreement of the royal household for providing value for money and royal household. Like others, I recognise the fantastic criticising the Treasury for its meanness. Time will tell. contribution that the Queen and members of the royal In this instance, I expect us to take evidence from the family make to the United Kingdom, and acknowledge Keeper of the Privy Purse and Treasurer to the Queen, the respect and warmth that the Queen commands Sir Alan Reid. Although the incorporation of the civil among the British people. Most recently, as others have list into the new sovereign grant gives us new powers, said, the royal wedding of the Duke and Duchess of with new audit and access rights for the Comptroller Cambridge gave us all an uplifting moment of joy, and Auditor General and new areas for public scrutiny allowing us to celebrate with the royal family on an of this expenditure by Parliament, the PAC has in the occasion filled with happiness at a time when so many past examined areas of expenditure by the royal household families are facing difficulties and insecurity in their covered by the grant for royal travel from the Department daily lives. of Transport and the grant aid for the royal palaces Clearly, if the Queen and the royal family are to carry from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. out their constitutional duties effectively, they need As the Chancellor said, in 2010, £5.4 million was appropriate funding. Some of this funding comes from granted for royal travel and £15 million for aid to royal the taxpayer, so we need to have in place an open and palaces. When the PAC reported on the occupied accountable system. The Chancellor’s announcement royal palaces in 2008-09 we found that, although the today puts the direct support from the taxpayer to the royal household claimed a £32 million backlog of royal family on a transparent footing, which will enable maintenance work, that figure was not supported by both Parliament and the public to understand how rigorous analysis. We said then that in the absence of a much taxpayer money is being spent annually by the consistent approach to assessing the condition of the royal family and what it is being spent on. This is Crown Estate and calculating the backlog, and without undoubtedly an important change for the better, and as an assessment of the practical consequences of the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, charged with backlog, the Department and the household could not following the taxpayer’s pound, I warmly welcome it. be sure how big the problem was or what to do about it. I also recognise the historic significance of the changes We said that the household should define the criteria for proposed, and believe it is hugely important for the inspecting the condition of the estate, agree with the future stability of the monarchy and its role in our Department the basis for calculating the maintenance constitutional settlement that we should modernise our backlog structures so that they are fit for purpose in today’s and, before the end of 2009, set out a plan for world, and properly meet the legitimate expectations of managing it. the taxpayer and the general public. As others have acknowledged, the Queen has acted sensitively and As a result of that recommendation, the household prudently in managing her finances over the past two adopted a new system for monitoring the condition of decades. That is right and proper, and she should be its estate to better manage prioritisation of the maintenance applauded for doing so. She has cut her real-terms work. In the same report, we noted that the Royal expenditure by more than 50% in the past 20 years, and Collection Trust received more than £27 million from at a time when we are asking every family to tighten visitors to the occupied royal palaces, of which just their belts, people will be heartened to see that she is £1.8 million was passed to the royal household to top playing her part. up the resources available to maintain the palaces. The The powers proposed in the legislation, as outlined report found that the arrangement by which money by the Chancellor, are hugely significant for Parliament. paid by visitors to the palaces went to fund the trust The Comptroller and Auditor General will be appointed dated from 1850. Clearly times have changed. More by statute to audit the sovereign grant accounts and he palaces have opened to the public and hundreds of will be empowered to prepare value for money reports thousands of tourists visit them each year, yet only a that the PAC can consider. This puts, for the first time, fraction of the income generated has, in the past, been those parts of the royal finances that come directly from used to maintain the palaces. The amount paid to the the taxpayer each year on a transparent basis, consistent household is at the discretion of the trust, but some with other public expenditure. The PAC has a long and staff of the household are also involved with the trust well-established history in effective public scrutiny, and and have potential conflicts of interest. we will, I am sure, approach these new responsibilities We said that the Department should work with the in our traditional way, working objectively and thoroughly household and the trust to revise the arrangements for on behalf of Parliament and the taxpayer. the collection and distribution of visitor income to 1157 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1158

[Margaret Hodge] 2.23 pm reflect the fact that visitors come to see the palaces as Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): It is a pleasure well as the works of art in them. In response, the royal to follow the right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret household announced a new arrangement under which, Hodge), who is the current Chair of the Public Accounts in 2009-10, the trust started paying an amount to the Committee. Under my chairmanship and hers, the royal household in respect of visitors to Buckingham Committee has for many years fought a relentless campaign palace, which again helps offset public funding. on this issue, but I never thought this day would come. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has risen to such To give another example, following a visit by the then distinction, but I remember his being a member of our Public Accounts Committee to Kensington palace on Committee when he was a very new, young Member of the back of a report on maintaining royal palaces, the Parliament, and he may recall a visit we made to Kensington Queen agreed to pay rent—initially £60,000 a year, palace together. The trouble with dealing politically rising to £120,000 a year—for the Prince and Princess with royal family matters—I know this from my many of Kent’s apartment at Kensington palace from her years of chairing the Public Accounts Committee—is own income. We understand that from 2010 the Prince that whereas an incredibly worthy report about tens of and Princess of Kent will remain at their apartment but millions of pounds, or even hundreds of millions of will pay the rent from their own funds. ponds, being wasted in the Department for Work and Pensions will end up only on page 15 of the Financial Those have been our past successes. In future, we Times, if we are lucky, something involving the royal might well want to look at a new range of issues, such as family gets much more interest. I think that the visit we whether the royal estate is being used in the most made to Kensington palace was on pages 2, 3, 4, 5 and cost-effective and efficient way, with the royal household 6 of the Daily Mail. There is enormous public interest maximising the potential for income from commercial where the royal family is concerned. lettings, and whether maintenance work is being properly My right hon. Friend is to be commended for being prioritised given the backlog. On travel, we might also the first Chancellor of the Exchequer to have the guts to look at the cost-effectiveness of the options chosen by take this issue on and deal with it. As I said, I thought the royal household—for example, between road, rail this day would never come. When we started this campaign and air—to ensure that best value for taxpayers’ money and really tried to gear it up, we were looking at three is secured. areas in which we thought that parliamentary accountability On the former civil list, we might want to examine was absolutely vital: the royal family and all aspects of procurement, staffing costs or expenditure on receptions royal finances; the BBC and the Bank of England. and entertainment. Having listened to the Chancellor’s Those three great institutions stand without Parliament welcome statement, I would appreciate it if he dealt and we were told for all sorts of reasons why it was with a number of issues that I believe arise. He has said quite inappropriate for the National Audit Office to that the sovereign grant will be reviewed every seven crawl all over their accounts. It has been like pushing years. As I understand his statement, he will be taking water uphill, but I think that after many years and many new powers to reduce the sovereign grant year on year if bloody battles we are going to drag the BBC to full the income from the Crown Estate exceeds his expectations. accountability—and not a moment too soon. That is I understand that such a power does not exist at present quite right. Again, I commend the Chancellor for what and I would be grateful if he confirmed that it will be a he is doing. The Bank of England is a more difficult new power. A similar issue arises on the income that the issue and we are still struggling on that, but we have a royal household receives from opening the palaces and great victory today. For the first time since this modern the royal art collection to the public. How in those settlement was made in 1760, Parliament will, through circumstances will any increase in income be treated in the Public Accounts Committee, be able to scrutinise all determining the sovereign grant? aspects of royal finances. Although there has been great resistance to this proposal, Finally, today’s proposals deal with the annual income I have to say that in all my many conversations with the received by the Queen from the taxpayer, but we need to royal household I never detected any resistance from it. ensure that the public interest in all the assets and I think it has been Governments who have worried estates held by the monarch on behalf of the public is about certain republicans on the Public Accounts accounted for in a transparent and consistent way. This Committee crawling over the royal finances. I should is particularly important in these stringent times when like to pay tribute to a great and wonderful parliamentarian, we are asking so much from hard-working families. I who has not been mentioned yet and who is a personal would be grateful if the Chancellor addressed this issue friend of mine—Mr Alan Williams, a former Father of in his reply. the House, who served with great distinction for many I warmly welcome today’s announcement by the years on the Committee. We all know that he gave the Chancellor. This is a truly historic occasion. For the royal finances a good going over. Unfortunately, another first time ever, we are placing the royal expenditure personal friend of mine, the hon. Member for Glasgow financed by the taxpayer on a proper footing—transparent South West (Mr Davidson), is not here, but I am sure for all to see and consistent with all other public expenditure. that if he were still on the Committee he, too, would be This is a sensible act of modernisation that I am sure giving the finances a good going over. will be welcomed by Members on both sides of the This will be tough for the royal household—there is House and by the general public at large. It will help to no doubt about that—and there will be strong questioning ensure continuing admiration and support for the in the Committee, as there is on all these subjects, but Queen and for the role she plays in our constitutional that is absolutely right because that is what we are arrangements. about: accountability. I think they have absolutely nothing 1159 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1160 to fear. As the shadow Chancellor made clear—we do state. It is a national scandal that the mausoleum for not need to labour this point, because we all know it so Queen Victoria and the Prince Consort is in such a well—the Queen has throughout her reign acted with derelict state that the public can no longer be admitted. incredible grace and wisdom and with such enormous That shows some of the problems with the royal finances. constitutional propriety. We know all that, but what is The Queen and her household have been making enormous not so well appreciated—certainly not by the general strides in creating efficiency savings, but they simply public and perhaps not by many Members of have not had the independence or the resources to try to Parliament—are the enormous strides that the household maintain the whole of the estate. It is vital for the nation has made in delivering efficiency savings and cutting that they be allowed to do so. costs. I am pretty confident that when the Committee, In conclusion, I warmly commend the Chancellor, working with the National Audit Office, is allowed to and say well done for finally getting parliamentary crawl over the accounts, it will find a first-rate, modern accountability. We now want to continue doing battle institution. with the BBC and the Bank of England, and make sure It is unfortunate that up to now the Committee has that this Parliament can audit all aspects of our national been able to deal only with royal travel and palaces and finances. not with the rest. That seemed a strange state of affairs. We managed to save the royal train, by the way, which 2.31 pm is, in terms of modern accountability, a fantastically Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I, too, broadly wasteful but noble instrument of royal travel. [Interruption.] welcome what has been said today. It is a credit to Her It is necessary. It is so old that it can only travel at night. Majesty that she has agreed to what the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) said is a revolutionary Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con) rose— change, bringing openness and transparency to the royal accounts. Having tried to get the expenses of BBC Mr Leigh: I give way to an ornament of the constitution. executives and certain producers made public, I totally agree with him about the BBC. It resists freedom of Jacob Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend and his colleagues information tooth and nail. If it is good enough for the saved the train but unfortunately not the yacht. Is there palace, I am sure that it is good enough for the BBC. any chance that for the diamond jubilee we will get the I accept that today’s statement is a strange way to yacht back? proceed and that the debate will come later, but there are questions that need to be asked. My right hon. Mr Leigh: Well, some stingy previous Government, Friend the Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge) said whom I will not mention by name, got rid of the royal that if the royal accounts are to have full transparency, yacht. What a tragedy. It is not the working part of the we have to look at them in total, not only at the civil list constitution but it is an important part. As for the royal as it is now or at the new sovereign grant. As the train, it is quite right that this wonderful elderly lady Chancellor said, it is ridiculous that we pay the royal should sometimes be allowed to sleep on the royal train household money and then pay it back to ourselves, so that when she visits Newcastle or Manchester she which is very inefficient administration. can wake up and perform her duty refreshed, and not be forced out of bed at 5 am to take a plane. We saved the If we are to get an idea of the full costs, we need to royal train; that, I think, is something that the PAC see what Departments pay the royal household in other achieved. ways. I give an example from the Ministry of Defence, which rents certain properties from the royal household, The PAC, then, will not cause any unnecessary trouble. including the Chief of the Defence Staff’s current Although I cannot speak for the new Committee, I have apartments in Kensington palace, which costs the MOD great respect for the right hon. Member for Barking, £108,000 a year. There is also military support for the and I know that she will handle the matter in an royal household. That, too, comes from the MOD effective and completely non-partisan way. I am sure budget, but is vital to the workings of the household that the Committee will do a wonderful job. and to supporting Her Majesty in her duties. If we are Before I finish, I want to say something about royal to have full transparency we need to know what that palaces. We paid that visit to Kensington palace, and we costs. There is an argument to be had about whether visited Buckingham palace. We found a lot of peeling some of the costs that fall on the MOD should come wallpaper there—there was a lot of under-investment. out of that budget. If we are to have a look at expenditure overall, it is important that that is taken into account. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Disgraceful! My right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor mentioned security, which should also be included. Mr Leigh: Yes. This is the Head of State. She should The general point of the proposals is to get consensus not be in a palace that is falling down, and we should both in the House and across the country that not only not be mean and stingy about that. I think that the are we getting good value for money from the expenditure, Government had been a bit stingy. Perhaps these new but we are accounting for it all. Certainly, it is very arrangements will allow her to look after her palaces welcome that the National Audit Office and the Public better. Accounts Committee will be looking at the entire issue. There is one scandal that I want to raise: Frogmore, Something that will come out in the Bill is the way the the royal mausoleum. It is falling down. As I understand fund will work in practice. I am not quite clear how the it, under the new arrangements there will be an opportunity 15% formula will work. In some years the amount will for the royal household to have greater control of its go up, and in others it will go down, and I accept that own affairs so that it can rehabilitate Frogmore, which there has to be a floor; we do not want the royal is an important national monument and in an appalling household suddenly to find that it does not have enough 1161 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1162

[Mr Kevan Jones] gains and losses. The Chancellor might wish to look at that percentage, rather than a particular profit figure, in-year money. I am, however, a little concerned about and perhaps it could be made clear whether the grant is the idea of allowing it to build up a surplus. It was intended to be supplemental to that £200 million or reported today in The Daily Telegraph that the Treasury part of it. is looking at a yearly cap on that figure, which I think My final point relates to the Chancellor’s comment would be better than allowing the royal household to on the potential income from marine renewable energy, build up a surplus over the seven-year period, which including wind, tidal and wave energy. It is rather curious many people would criticise. I ask the Chancellor to that that sits within the Crown Estate at all. If we look look at an annual cap on the investment that comes at the precedent of the Forestry Commission, which from the Crown Estate, because otherwise the current was created in 1919, and to which the Crown Estate efficiency drives might not continue. forests were transferred in 1923, we will see that it might I accept that giving the royal household more flexibility be worth considering whether the marine estate should in how it spends the money is sensible, but there must be transferred in its entirely out of the Crown Estate also be some debate on who benefits from the current and possibly given to all the local authorities on the civil list and who will benefit from the new sovereign coast that could benefit from what is going on. That grant. Will it just be left to the royal household to might be an interesting way of giving a direct benefit to decide which members of the royal family benefit? That local authorities on the coast, where marine energy will need to be clarified in the Bill, because there is could form the bedrock of a future economy, without clearly a public perception that some people on the civil having to trouble the Chancellor. I leave that little list do not deserve the support they receive, and that thought with him and again congratulate him on what needs to be looked at. Having said that, I know from my looks like the beginnings of a very elegant solution to time at the Ministry of Defence that many of the minor an old problem. royals do a lot of work to support armed forces charities and others. They do not get a great deal of publicity but should be commended, and it is important that that 2.40 pm should be allowed to continue. Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): The sight of the I broadly welcome the proposals and look forward to British Head of State bowing her head in respect at the Bill, but if we are to have proper scrutiny of what Croke park to those who had been murdered by the the royal household costs, it should include everything. British Army was a symbol of profound potency. She I ask the Chancellor to look carefully at the MOD’s also paid her respects to the many thousands of soldiers budget, which I know he is already doing, and to from the Republic who died in the first world war. She consider whether it is realistic that we pay it money that visited the English market in Cork, which a number of is then paid out to the royal household for something us have visited recently, and that has had a practical that is not a core military task but which is important to benefit for the area. I believe that that visit will help to the household. heal the deep wounds between the Republic and ourselves. The Queen has a splendid and unblemished record of 2.36 pm service as the Head of State, and I do not want to stray into saying that she does not. She has rightly earned the John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) respect of us all. However, some of the hyperbole this (LD): Much of what I wish to say has already been said. afternoon, which we always have on these occasions, I congratulate the Chancellor on what seems to be the goes a little too far. beginnings of an elegant solution to a difficult problem. I wish to make three quick points for him. First, on the Last year, Prince Charles increased the amount of matter of principle, it is extremely important that the taxpayers’ money he spent by 18% and his personal process does not become a formula that is reviewed spending went up by 50%. That was at a time when his annually which puts the whole of the household’s finances 159 staff had their wages frozen. We must look carefully into play on an annual basis. Whatever method is used at the royal finances. I found it an Alice-in-Wonderland for the calculations, it must be robust enough, as the concept for the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) previous debates that the shadow Chancellor cited made to say that one of the great achievements of the Public clear, to allow the dignity of the Crown across a period Accounts Committee was to save a bit of money on of time. That is an important principle. transport that he described as fantastically wasteful. I think that we must apply the same financial discipline Secondly, as other Members have suggested, we should to the royal family that we apply to the poorest in consider exactly what we mean by the profit, because society. students of the Crown Estate’s annual finances will know that that is a highly variable figure, depending on There should be a distinction, as was suggested by my the point at which we decide to look. It depends on hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), whether it is the operating profit and whether there are between the way we treat the monarch, because of her movements in surpluses. There is one number that we role, and other members of the royal family. Perhaps we might look at, which is not necessarily a profit but could be a bit more critical in the way in which we work relates most closely to what might be regarded as the out the benefit of visits from minor members of the surplus cash within the Crown Estate: the annual remittance royal family to charities and set that alongside the to the Treasury, which last year was £200 million or so. security and military costs that are incurred. That does That is the figure that the Crown Estate remits to the not happen now. Treasury, having considered what it wishes to withhold It is not true to say that support for the monarchy as for future investment and having regard to the various an institution is universal in this country. I come from a discrepancies that come in the statement of total recognised constituency where the last insurrection that tried to set 1163 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1164 up a republic took place in 1839. The 20 people who in raw figures. It has also been estimated that one died in that insurrection are honoured every year. There weekend, the weekend of the recent royal wedding, are people in this country who are happy to describe brought hundreds of millions of pounds into the Revenue themselves as republicans, although the figure varies. It in tourism, merchandise sales and the like. That profit was about 45% at the time of the death of Princess for the taxpayer is well worth sustaining. Diana and it goes down to about 25%. Those people have a credible view that should be heard. Mr Kevan Jones: I take the hon. Gentleman’s point We had little prior knowledge of this debate. I had no about tourism and other matters that provide a net idea that it was happening today. There seems to be an contribution, but surely under the settlement of the acceptance of this matter without a knowledge of the 1760s we cannot really consider the Crown Estate as fine details. I urge that we find a simpler solution, still being owned by the royal family. It was given up so because the one we have seems to be very complex. that it could produce the money for the state that it There is income from various sources, some of which currently does. I would not look at it in the same terms are controlled and some not. Perhaps we could apply a as the hon. Gentleman. system similar to the one that I urged hon. Members to use for ourselves some years ago in supporting a motion Michael Ellis: The hon. Gentleman may not, but tabled by Chris Mullin, which was that the salaries of others may choose to do so. In fact, I happen to think hon. Members should be linked to changes in the basic that the 1760 arrangements were an historic injustice to state pension, so that if there was an increase in the King George III and his heirs and successors. There is basic state pension, our salaries would increase, and if it every reason to say that if the hon. Gentleman is not was frozen, our salaries would be frozen. I believe that a happy with the arrangements being proposed, perhaps simple mechanism of that type would be acceptable to the royal family could sustain having 100% back. the country as a whole, and it would be beneficial to the House because it would give us a greater interest in the level of the basic state pension. It would be interesting Jacob Rees-Mogg: Hear, hear! to put a cap on future payments for the civil list, and if it was linked to a mechanism like that, whether based Michael Ellis: I see that that idea is getting agreement. on the retail prices index or the consumer prices index, it would be possible to understand it. It is essential that the royal family should face the same financial discipline John Thurso: The hon. Gentleman has tempted me. as every other family in the land. Part of the 1760 settlement was that the Crown no longer had to pay for the Army. Would it be equitable Of course the royal family have done many beneficial for it to take back the Crown Estate and the entire things recently, particularly raising money from the Ministry of Defence Budget? royal palaces. However, it is worth remembering that the most profitable royal palace in Europe is Versailles, and they have had rather a different attitude to royalty Michael Ellis: Now my hon. Friend is tempting me. in France from the one that we have had here. However, It is important to bear in mind, as Professor Vernon that is not essential. Bogdanor has stated in one of his treatises on subject—“The The royal family are in the position that we cannot Monarchy and the Constitution”, I think—that it costs attack them or say anything critical. That is the rule in about the same to run the royal family as it does to run the House, which we accepted some seven centuries ago. the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency in Swansea. I We know the recent history, with the behaviour of venture to suggest that the royal family attract far certain members of the royal family having been widely greater support from the British public than most criticised in the press, but it is impossible for us to make institutions. any derogatory remarks about them here. I believe that The issues at stake are important, and they are: we should remove that gag, not because we wish to fairness, accountability and transparency, and the necessary criticise the Head of State but so that when minor flexibility, which has not been built into the system to members of the royal family are extravagant or outrage this point. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the public by their standards of behaviour, we in the the Exchequer has pointed out, the previous system, House have the freedom to be critical of them. although not that old, was quite frankly archaic, bureaucratic and burdensome. It was also inflexible, so 2.46 pm that if money was saved in one department—for example, in travel arrangements—it could not be spent on, say, Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): May I repairing a leaking roof. The previous arrangements personally commend and congratulate the Chancellor were unnecessarily bureaucratic, and they urgently needed of the Exchequer not only for taking the initiative in reform to save taxpayers’ money and to save time. They this matter, which has been pressing for many years, but also needed to be more accountable and transparent, for making excellent and historic improvements to the which is what these necessary reforms will achieve. current arrangements, which have been unsustainable If we take the trouble to look at how the money is for some time? spent, we see, for example, that £400,000 is spent on The royal family are one of the few departments of communications. I venture to suggest that much of that Government—just about the only thing that the money is spent on communication with members of the Government funds, I would suggest—that make a profit public who write in to the palaces, and on other necessary for the taxpayer. They brought into the revenues of the duties, such as inviting to garden parties the tens of Treasury something in the region of £200 million than thousands of people—and it is, in fact, tens of was paid out last year. That was a profit for the taxpayer thousands—who enjoy and appreciate visiting the royal 1165 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1166

[Michael Ellis] from Linda Colley and other historians of the period— serves me right, it was actually a cunning manoeuvre by households by invitation every year. This money is not the late King George III that substantially increased spent on trifles; it is spent for the general public’s royal revenues, rather than the act of generosity that it is enjoyment. sometimes presented as. One part of the motion, which The same thing goes for the palaces. Much of the I think the House will support, that worries me conceptually expenditure goes on the maintenance of royal palaces. I is the notion that the time of transition from one venture to suggest that not even the few republican monarch to another is not the time for reflection on the diehards whom we might find in this House would arrangements that we want for our head of state. The propose that the royal palaces be knocked down after notion that we are going to write down a settlement that the abolition of the monarchy and car parks built in cannot be debated for another 200 years might therefore their stead. Even in the absence of a monarchy—may need some reflection on Second Reading. God forfend—those palaces would have to be maintained. I respect the Queen and I have travelled with other They might be museums or something similar, but they members of the royal family, although I hate the term would still need the maintenance that they need now. In “minor royals”—it is offensive to the very hard-working fact, they have been allowed to fall into a state of men and women who give a lot of their time to public disrepair because of the lack of funds, which only service. If I can, I always welcome in person any of makes it more expensive to repair them. them who come to my constituency, because they are I also support the modernising arrangements as they always well received and well liked. Her Majesty came relate to the Duchy of Cornwall. That is welcome, to the Advance Manufacturing Centre in Catcliffe with because in future the heir to the royal house will be able Prince Philip last November and stood for an hour to secure funds and revenue from the Duchy of Cornwall asking good questions. I was amazed at her stamina without necessarily being male—that is, without being and her presence; the visit really cheered up all the the Duke of Cornwall. That is important and follows people there. This just goes to show that 85 really is the other reforms, in the tradition of the Demise of the new 55. Crown Act 1901. Formerly, offices of the state were None the less, how does one justify 159 butlers, cancelled on the demise of the Crown. However, the valets, cooks, dressers, housekeepers and the rest for various Acts that Parliament has seen fit to pass over Prince Charles? [Interruption.] We are all reading the the past 100 years or so have meant that such positions— memoirs written by the father of the hon. Member for ministerial positions, judicial appointments and the like— North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) in The Times, could continue. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of and there is a lovely entry today about how he and the Exchequer’s further reform, making it necessary Rupert Murdoch managed to cheer up the Queen at a only for an Order in Council after the completion of lunch back in the 1970s; I would not have minded one reign and the beginning of another, simply follows eavesdropping on that. But why on earth, when we keep in that historic tradition. a royal flight, is Prince Charles taking a jet trip from I commend these measures, and I support them in Mr Joe Allbritton, who is not British at all but some full. I congratulate the Chancellor on bringing them kind of American oligarch and millionaire— forward, and I invite Members of this House to consider supporting Her Majesty in her 60th jubilee gift, which Michael Ellis: Why not? the House is currently considering. Mr MacShane: The hon. Gentleman, from a sedentary or kneeling position, asks why not— 2.53 pm Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): This has Jacob Rees-Mogg: Will the hon. Gentleman give been a most enjoyable debate. With the need to refurbish way? some of the royal households with up-to-date wallpaper, we have learned that the fortunes of Osborne & Little Mr MacShane: Of course. might now increase. We heard from my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor some historical evidence of our hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) Jacob Rees-Mogg: It seems a little bit mean to object making interventions from a sedentary position when when the royal family employ someone, and then object this issue was last discussed, in the 1970s. People listening when they save a bit of money by taking a free flight. I to this debate from outside this place might have felt do not think the right hon. Gentleman can have it both that some of the speeches by right hon. and hon. ways. Members were delivered not so much from a sedentary position but, as it were, from a kneeling position, if that Mr MacShane: I am trying to choose my words were possible in the House. I would say gently to the carefully, because this is a serious matter. Serious questions hon. Member for Northampton North (Michael Ellis) would be asked if any Government Minister, acting on that some of us think that the land in this country that behalf of the nation, were to start hopping around in is not in specific private ownership belongs to the oligarchs’ planes— people. For us, the notion that the royal family is signing generous cheques to the taxpayer sits a little Chris Ruane: And yachts! oddly. I want to raise one substantial point today. The Mr MacShane: I do not think that right hon. Member Chancellor and the shadow Chancellor said that we for Tatton (Mr Osborne) was a Government Minister at needed to look back to 1760, but if my history—learned the time of that yacht trip— 1167 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1168

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The generally have a much better record than the EU’s right hon. Gentleman is in danger of straying into— republics. The royal families, however, are also much cheaper there. In Spain, with its King, Queen and Mr MacShane rose— wonderful royal palace where I had the privilege and honour of having dinner with the Crown Prince of the Mr Deputy Speaker: No, I will finish. Individual Asturias and the lovely Princess—and Prince Charles—a names are being attached to what is being said, and that few weeks ago— [Interruption.] The food was free, but is not what we should be doing. This is a general debate I paid for my own air fare. The total cost of the whole on the civil list, and we should not refer to individual Spanish monarch is ¤8.4 million, while the Queen of the members of the royal family or to individual amounts Netherlands gets by on ¤828,000. spent. I ask only that we do some comparative analysis before simply continuing with an arrangement that, Mr MacShane: There, to some extent, we have it. I even with the Chancellor’s proposed modernisations, accept fully your ruling— remains deeply anachronistic.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I will go on to the next Mr Leigh: Surely we should make a comparison with speaker if the right hon. Gentleman does not accept it. other major countries. In fact, the cost of the Queen bears favourable comparison with the cost of the Italian Mr MacShane: I said that I accept your ruling fully, and the German Presidents—and who has ever heard of Mr Deputy Speaker, and I will not say another word, them, and what do they do for their country in comparison save that—[Laughter.] If it is in order, Mr Deputy with our Queen? Speaker, I should like to say that it is not right for this debate to take place in the Daily Mail, The Daily Mr MacShane: I do not really want to get into Telegraph and The Independent but not on the Floor of discussions about German lineages. I recall a previous the House. That is all. German President who actually walked the length and breadth of Germany in his summer holiday, and he did Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. There are clear rules for not receive anything remotely like what we pay our this House that we have to abide by. The right hon. official Head of State. Gentleman might not like it, but that is the case. It is interesting to note that Scotland’s First Minister, Mr Salmond, has ditched his party’s original republicanism Mr MacShane: I actually believe that a plane should and now asserts that an independent Scotland—if that be made available for the use of senior Government unlikely event were to take place—would keep the monarch Ministers, including the PM. He had to scrounge a lift as its Head of State. However, I would like to see any from Prague to Brussels with the Czech President the future monarch living a lifestyle in tune and in touch other day. He got something out of it, but frankly, every with that of the nation. We can see the Duke of Cambridge, senior Minister in most democracies has that mode of who serves with RAF officers, and his wife living a transport available to them. Our planes are continually lifestyle much closer to that of the rest of the nation. available to any member of the royal family, while elected Ministers come second. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The right We then have the problem of explaining why the hon. Gentleman has referred to people who have ditched present monarch and the next one are such giant their republicanism. Will he join me in welcoming the landowners. Is that an issue that we might be able to decision of the Sinn Fein mayor in the Irish Republic debate, Mr Deputy Speaker? who welcomed Her Majesty and shook her hand—despite Of course we all enjoyed the royal wedding celebration Gerry Adams’s advice to do otherwise—showing an this year and we will enjoy the diamond jubilee next increasing acceptance of the monarchy everywhere? year. Roman emperors promised their subjects panem et circenses: the current Government are doing their Mr MacShane: A law throughout my entire life has best to reduce the quota of panem with their cuts and been that if Mr Gerry Adams advises anybody to do cruelties imposed on the poor and handicapped, but anything, they will be on the safest ground if they do they are increasing the availability of circenses through the opposite. the royal shows. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend the I do not believe that there is any kind of republican Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge), the Chairman mood in the country. It was interesting to hear the of the Public Accounts Committee, or the Chair of any oleaginous loyalty, if I may put it that way, expressed by other Select Committee could examine the high levels of my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul expenditure that we have discussed this afternoon. I am Flynn), who had a tremendous enthusiasm for the sure that the Bill will go through without opposition, monarchy, which has surprised many of us. I remember but if the monarchy is to continue in future years—after the silver jubilee in Rotherham in 1978, when I am told the time of Her Majesty—some things will have to that 41,000 union jack flags were sold in the socialist change. republic of South Yorkshire. I welcome the Bill and the way in which it is being If we look at the European Union, we see that the presented, and I think that the Opposition are handling states that are monarchies—Sweden, Denmark, the the matter as they should, but a wider debate is needed. Netherlands and even, with all its troubles, Spain—enjoy Let me say again—not on my knees—that there is less partisan and less conflictual politics. When it comes nothing that can be discussed in our newspapers, pubs to growth, distribution and a fair social settlement since and meeting rooms that cannot also be discussed, in full the second world war, we find that the EU’s monarchies detail, in this our House of Commons. 1169 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1170

3.5 pm we are of course familiar, may be seen as being at an all-time low. Moreover, it is clear—certainly from the Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): Unlike the celebrations of the royal wedding day in my constituency— shadow Chancellor, I have not spent the last 48 hours that royal occasions provide a terrific excuse for a party carefully considering what to say in the debate, so I shall which will make people feel good, and that must be a keep my remarks short. I have not been enjoying the good thing at a time when we are increasingly measuring tennis either; my mind has been occupied with other national well-being as well as simple economic indicators. matters. I welcome the approach that the Chancellor has Let me say to my hon. Friend the Member for outlined, and the prospect of the longer debate that we Northampton North (Michael Ellis) that I consider shall have on Second Reading when the Bill has been those to be rather better justifications for the civil list published. I want to place on record, on behalf of the and the spending of public money on the monarchy Liberal Democrats, the affection and esteem in which than the fact that monarchy offers better value for Her Majesty the Queen is held throughout the country. money than the DVLA, which I think is a dangerous Every time I visit a primary school in my constituency, road on which to embark. Obviously affection for, and two questions are entirely predictable, and have been confidence in, the monarchy has been reinforced by the asked throughout the last decade. They are “Do you conduct of the current Queen, who has performed her know the Prime Minister?” and “Have you met the role over many decades with enormous dignity and Queen?”. There is a subtle but profound difference professionalism. It is important that the monarchy has between those questions, which shows that young children also moved with the times, not least by responding can be very perceptive about the relative influence of appropriately to the recent austere financial situation in Members of Parliament and the Queen. The Queen has which this country finds itself. I am therefore very visited the city of Bristol many times throughout her supportive of the Chancellor’s announcement. reign, and has always been warmly received. Although I welcome the Chancellor’s approach, I Michael Ellis: As the hon. Gentleman is so eloquently think there is an important point to be made about the expressing his support for the monarchy, will he be future finances of the monarchy. I agree with what the contributing towards Parliament’s gift for the Queen’s right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge) said diamond jubilee—the window? about the importance of transparency. The reformed system of financing the Head of State—and this may be Martin Horwood: I think that is a rather inappropriate the first major reform since the accession of George III question actually, but I was strongly inclined to do so, —must be transparent and open to scrutiny. Three although it might be a rather expensive window, so if we years ago we discovered in a very painful way that can bring the cost down a bit, that might be appropriate. resisting transparency does no institution in our land any good, and I believe that the institution of the I was making the important point that it is entirely monarchy will be enhanced by transparency over its right to bring greater audit and transparency to the financing. arrangements for the Head of State. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) said Both the right hon. Member for Barking and her that too, and he is also absolutely right that public predecessor as Chairman of the Public Accounts money and public confidence must go together. However, Committee referred to the royal palaces. Thanks to the some issues remain to be tackled if we are to maintain initiative of Mr Speaker, this palace is now open on that confidence over future generations for the Queen’s more occasions during the year so that members of the heirs and successors. public can come and see the place with which we are so familiar, but Buckingham Palace is still only open for I am pleased that the Minister for Equalities is sitting one month a year, except to those who are fortunate on the Front Bench as well as the Chancellor, because I enough to be invited there for a formal occasion. I hope want to discuss the issue of absolute cognatic primogeniture. that consideration will be given to whether it would be I am not referring here to the situation of Catholics in possible for grand places such as, in particular, Buckingham the succession, which is simple in terms of equalities Palace to be open to the public on more days during the but rather complicated in terms of the role of the year. That would both enhance the income of the royal Church of the England as the state Church; that raises palaces and the royal arts collection and enable more all sorts of issues. The issue of succession to the Crown people from all over the country to see what is probably by women in order of birth is important, however. the most famous building in the world. Without wanting to cause any embarrassment to Their I look forward to our Second Reading debate and to Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, perhaps making a longer contribution on that occasion. it is an issue on which we have a window of opportunity that may close in a year or so. This was an issue in Sweden in the 1980s, when the 3.8 pm birth of an infant daughter following the birth of the Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I speak as—I young Crown Prince Carl Philip meant that it became a hope—a radical democrat who really believes that question of disinheriting a young heir to the throne. It sovereignty resides with the people and should be only would be unfortunate if we were to go down that path cautiously delegated to Crowns and perhaps even in this country, so if we want generally to modernise the Parliaments. Nevertheless, I declare myself a monarchist, monarchy, now would be a good moment for this issue not just for sentimental reasons but because I believe to be addressed alongside the financial issues. We could that the monarchy performs an important role as an then look forward to future generations of the monarchy impartial focus for national sentiment at a time when enjoying the same affection and confidence as Her public confidence in other public institutions, with which Majesty the Queen. 1171 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1172

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Igaveyouabit is particularly sensible to be investigating in close detail of latitude there, Mr Horwood. I call Jacob Rees-Mogg. how the royal family spend their money. I recall a line about motes and beams; we have had quite a problem 3.12 pm with our own expenditure in this House and I am not Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I sure that we have got things entirely right. Before we know there is a great wish to debate Epping forest, a start criticising the monarchy and looking over every matter of enormous interest, so I will try not to be biscuit that the Queen buys, we should make sure that unduly long-winded. we have our own house in order. So far in the debate, we have missed a crucial point. We have just focused on the cost of the monarchy, but Mr Kevan Jones: The hon. Gentleman would not be our sovereign represents the greatest institution in our suggesting that a way of controlling the royal household land; it is that bit that makes us British, and we do not would be to have the Independent Parliamentary Standards want a mean monarchy.We want a proper and well-funded Authority running it, would he? monarchy, not a bicycling monarchy, even if riding the Mayor of London’s bicycles. Jacob Rees-Mogg: I would most certainly not be The subject of this debate encapsulates the connection recommending that IPSA comes anywhere near our the monarchy gives us to our history. What did the sovereign. Commons spend its time debating in the 16th century? When the Crown Estate was granted in 1760 by It spent its time debating that the King should live of George III, at the same time as he gave up his claim as his own: that the King—Henry VIII for much of that King of France, the monarchy was in deficit and it era—should be able to use his own resources to provide needed extra money to fulfil the functions that were for all he needed to spend. This debate returns us to that being fulfilled. Some of those functions were greater same principle. than those now paid for by the civil list. That is all The Crown Estate provides an extraordinary link certainly true, although Parliament would vote excess with our history. We could probably find some acre of resources to pay for things such as the Army, so my the Crown Estate somewhere—probably in Somerset—that hon. and noble friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland was the property of Alfred the Great, but we would and Easter Ross (John Thurso) was not entirely fair on certainly find that there was property in the Crown the point about paying for the Army. Estate that came with William the Conqueror and from Now the Crown Estate is in substantial surplus and I the dissolution of the monasteries. St James’s palace think that the Chancellor, in his proposals, which in started as a leper colony founded by Queen Margaret many ways are very good, may be being somewhat in, I think, 1118. It was then part of the endowment of canny, because the next sovereign would be able to Eton college, which was, very tactfully, given back to cancel this arrangement and say, “I should like £200 million the Crown by Eton when Henry VIII said, “If you don’t a year, thank you very much.” There is no requirement give it back, I’m going to dissolve you.” [Interruption.] on a new sovereign to agree to hand the Crown Estate That was a missed opportunity, I think some on the over in return for a civil list. The hon. Member for Labour Benches are saying. The Crown Estate is an North Durham (Mr Jones) said that this is taxpayers’ extraordinary link with our history, which is what makes money and not the Crown’s money, but it really is the us the country—the United Kingdom—that we are. Crown’s money because, on becoming King, the Prince Some attack that and say, “We want a good value of Wales or any other sovereign could simply rescind monarchy.” That makes Her Majesty sound as though the agreement and claim it back. The Crown Estate is she is something to be bought off the top shelf at Tesco, the sovereign’s property, which the sovereign gives to and it really cannot be how we wish to approach our Parliament to help to pay for the costs of the nation; it constitution. The Crown is an essential element of that is not taxpayers’ money that is being handed over. constitution; everything of importance that happens is [Interruption.] Does the right hon. Member for Morley done in the name of the Crown. and Outwood (Ed Balls) want me to give way? The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) said that he wanted the royal family to be treated as any Ed Balls indicated dissent. other family but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton North (Michael Ellis) pointed out, if they were any other family they would not be paying Jacob Rees-Mogg: No, he is going to let me carry on. such a high tax rate. Given the 15% provision, Her As a result of what I have described the Queen is paying Majesty will be expected to pay an 85% tax rate, which a higher rate of tax than anybody else. We should is more than the 50% tax rate that many of us hope will remember that and I hope that the Chancellor will be go over the course of this Parliament. generous. I would like the 15% provision to be increased because we want to have a glamorous monarchy that Paul Flynn: Over the years we were kept in ignorance befits the status of our nation. We are a great nation, a of the royal tax rates and it was only as a result of a noble nation and a nation that has had power across the campaign in this House about 12 years ago that we were globe in the past. We have one of the finest histories of given any information at all about this. I would welcome any country in the world. When I see the coronation it if the hon. Gentleman is asking for full transparency coach being pulled through the streets of London, I on the royal taxes, but I am not sure that that is part of want to see it being pulled by the finest horses that the suggestion before us today. money can buy and I want to see it gilded with the finest gold that can be bought. I want Her Majesty to have as Jacob Rees-Mogg: I clearly have not asked for full a jubilee present the finest window that can be funded transparency on the royal tax affairs. Indeed, I would by Members of Parliament. That is the status of monarchy argue for the precise opposite, because I do not think it that we want and I urge the Chancellor to remember 1173 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1174

[Jacob Rees-Mogg] figure was chosen to maintain the current level of expenditure, or something in that ballpark, to the end that. Even though I know that we are in this time of of this Parliament. It has been estimated that 15% of austerity, that we are all in it together and that the the Crown Estate profits would provide some £37.5 million Opposition spent all the money, maxed out the credit a year, 25% higher than the total grants that are currently card and so on, we should look after Her Majesty. provided. As a number of right hon. and hon. Members have said, we need to consider the appropriate level of 3.19 pm expenditure for the royal family. There might be a case for increasing that amount and we must consider carefully Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): How on earth how demands on the royal household have changed. As do I follow that, Mr Deputy Speaker? my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor said in his We have had an interesting debate and, as has been opening speech, the pressures on the royal household said, this is just the start of the process. It is an unusual from issues such as security have increased greatly. process, given that we have not yet had sight of the Bill and that this is a preliminary debate. The debate has There could also be a case for reducing the royal ranged from yachts, trains and the prospect of the grant if, for example, there were further efficiency savings. monarch taking out a Boris bike for the day to other I note that the Chancellor is proposing a cash floor to important issues that are perhaps slightly off-topic, avoid real terms cuts to the royal grant in future, which such as primogeniture, succession and whether first-born is a significant commitment in the context of wider females and Catholics will one day be able to take Government spending cuts, but we should, however, precedence in succeeding to the throne. We heard from also consider whether there is a potential need for a cap the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees- on the amount raised. We should consider the proposed Mogg) that St James’s palace was once a leper colony mechanism for uprating the royal grant each year, too. that was given to Eton. By the time the Bill goes into As has been said, profits from the Crown Estate Committee—I very much hope that he will be a member could rise significantly, particularly because of its links of that Committee—I might have worked up a gag with wind farm developments, which could bring in about that. I am still working on it at the moment. substantial revenues. The rise is described as exponential As we have heard, the demands on the royal household in the short term and significant in the longer term, so are vastly different today from when the House last we need to consider whether a cap might be appropriate. discussed the issue. The financing arrangements are Parliament must also be certain that any new largely unchanged since 1760. As my right hon. Friend arrangement will be stable and work in the long term. If the shadow Chancellor has made clear, we welcome the the royal grant or reserves fluctuate significantly, that opportunity to discuss the new sovereign support grant, could, as the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland which we feel will be better equipped to meet the royal and Easter Ross (John Thurso) said, lead us into the household’s needs. We will support the Chancellor in unwelcome situation of an almost annual review of the reforming the arrangements although, as he would expect, finances. We will need to strike a balance when building we will ask questions and will want to know in detail flexibility into the formula, and some might say that how the arrangements will work. seven years is too long a gap to leave between reviews, Efforts have already been made to ensure that grant but we will need such flexibility if Crown Estate revenues support to the royal household is fair to the taxpayer in rise significantly. the context of wider Government spending and we One fact that has come to light, as Members have welcome them, too. Last year, the Chancellor announced already said, is that the Crown Estate owns 55% of the in his spending review that support for the royal household foreshore around the United Kingdom and all the would be frozen at £30 million in 2011-12 and 2012-13 seabed up to 12 nautical miles from the coast. Although before the new arrangements are put in place. That will I do not think that the House will go down the hon. necessitate a 14% reduction in royal household expenditure Gentleman’s suggested path and transfer ownership of in 2012-13. the foreshore to coastal communities, despite some in We have also heard from a number of speakers about the south-west facing high water bills because of the the significant efficiency savings made by the royal extra costs associated with being on the coast, I think household in recent years, although the hon. Member that we need to look at the issue in the context of the for North East Somerset also expressed the view that UK being the world’s leader in offshore wind power. the monarchy should not go down the Tesco value Opposition Members and Members in general very route, which led my hon. Friends to ask about the much support further investment in renewables, but is it Lidl—or Aldi—monarchy. I suspect that that those are appropriate that increased Government investment in not places where the hon. Gentleman often shops. such technologies should directly support the royal My right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and household? Indeed, that goes for private and public Outwood (Ed Balls) asked whether the efficiency savings investment. The Government have made available some would be a continuing process or whether the end of the £200 million of public funding for investment in renewables, road had already been reached, with all the savings a proportion of which could end up accruing to the being made that could be made. My right hon. Friend royal household via the sovereign grant, so what flexibility the Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) highlighted can be built into the new grant to deal with such some points where further savings could be made and I situations? hope that that will be addressed when the Bill goes to There is a need to ensure the appropriate parliamentary Committee. oversight of the sovereign grant and of royal household As hon. Members have said, the Treasury’s choice of expenditure, and we heard from the hon. Member for a level of 15% of the revenues of the Crown Estate Gainsborough (Mr Leigh), as the former Chair of the needs proper scrutiny. The Chancellor said that that Public Accounts Committee, and from my right hon. 1175 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1176

Friend the Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge), as right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge) and the current Chair. She described the measures as a my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) sensible act of modernisation, and both Members said for the measures that we are bringing forward. We want that they look forward to getting their teeth into scrutinising to reform the system so that we can put the grant the process and making it more transparent. funding on a sustainable, long-term footing and, as we have said, open it up to full parliamentary scrutiny. I Mr Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that we think the colleagues I mentioned appreciate the objectives must start by looking at everything, the total expenditure, that we have in mind. In addition, we want to take the including not only, as I said, support from the military, opportunity to modernise and simplify some peripheral but, for example, the cost of the lord lieutenancy service? elements of the current legislation. If we do not do so, we will not be informed or really As the Chancellor set out, we have been guided by understand what the monarchy costs. three principles: first, ensuring that we have sustainable, long-term financing for the royal household, free from Kerry McCarthy: As I have already said, security is a annual political interference; secondly, ensuring that it big element of spending on the royal family, but other has some flexibility so that the royal household can elements need to put into the mix, and the Chancellor’s manage its finances efficiently; and thirdly, ensuring announcement of the merger of the three separate accountability by establishing proper checks and balances funding pots will help with transparency and with looking to prevent sums from becoming excessive. Following at everything in the round. those principles, we have arrived at the proposals that So, we very much welcome the agreement that the we are debating—initially, although we will have a National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee Second Reading debate shortly—for a new sovereign will audit royal household funding, but as the Bill goes grant. through the House, we will seek clarity on when and These are genuinely significant reforms that are designed how often those audits will be carried out, clarity on to last. Linking the sovereign grant to Crown Estate what disclosure there will be of the information and profits means that arrangements will be durable where evidence used in the process and, indeed, clarity on the the old system was not. As we have heard, 15% of Committee’s remit to look at issues such as those that Crown Estate profits is the starting point for deriving my hon. Friend has just raised. the grant amount. It will be based on 15% of profit in In conclusion, we support the Chancellor’s initiative, the year two years prior—so, for example, the grant for but we will seek clarity on the level at which the new 2013-14 will be 15% of the profit for 2011-12. That will grant is set, on the arrangements for uprating it each provide an amount that should keep royal spending year and on whether there will be flexibility on that and broadly in line with spending in recent years in real on the level of parliamentary oversight. We hope that terms. The percentage will be reviewed every seven by the time the Bill reaches its financial stages there will years. In the unlikely event that an increase is proposed, be cross-party consensus on the new arrangements. it will require affirmative resolution in Parliament; and, of course, there are powerful control mechanisms that ensure that the grant never becomes unmanageable. 3.29 pm Furthermore, the Bill brings accountability arrangements The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine for the royal household into line with those for other Greening): The last time that the House substantively Government Departments. We think it is important debated this issue was during proceedings on what that Parliament should have the ability to scrutinise the became the Civil List Act 1972, and, as the system that expenditure when it sees a need to do so— the Act implemented comes up for renewal, it is only right that we debate its merits and potential for reform. Mr Kevan Jones: If a large surplus builds up in the I am grateful to right hon. and hon. Members for, in seven-year period, what will happen to it? Will it be particular, a lively and informative debate about reforming retained by the royal household for their use, or will it the sovereign grant. As we heard from my hon. Friends be paid back to the Treasury? the Members for Brentford and Isleworth (Mary Macleod) and for Northampton North (Michael Ellis), the royal Justine Greening: There will be a cap at 15% of the family contributes a tremendous amount to our country, spend by the royal household in the previous year. If the and they paid fitting tributes to its work on behalf of hon. Gentleman waits for a few more minutes, when I the nation. We also heard from other Members their will have a chance to present the Bill to the House, he thoughts about the royal family and how they should be will have even more information at his disposal to funded in future. understand exactly how that cap will work, how the Of course, last time we had such a debate was back in review will take place, and who will perform it. 1972. I have not yet had time to read that debate; I am The Bill brings accountability arrangements for the not sure whether it would have been as entertaining as royal household into line with those for other Government the one we have had today. We heard suggestions about Departments. Parliament will have an opportunity to whether we should have a biking monarchy. I am sure scrutinise that expenditure when it— that Members will be interested to know that the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge were given a tandem Boris Mr MacShane: The hon. Lady keeps saying that the bike by the Mayor of London; I am sure that they will royal household will be brought into line with other use it frequently. Government Departments. Does not that imply that As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said, we there will be a Government Minister who is accountable believe that the system is in need of change. I greatly to the Commons for what the royal household is spending appreciate the support of the shadow Chancellor, the and will, from time to time, answer questions on it? 1177 Civil List30 JUNE 2011 Civil List 1178

Justine Greening: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely system. As we have heard, in cash terms, that is broadly right to raise that issue. Of course, the Treasury will be in line with the current level of spending, but in real accountable for the sovereign grant. terms, there is a cut of 9% over the course of this As for accountability to Parliament, sovereign grant Parliament. As I said, that is lower in real terms than expenditure will be audited annually by the Comptroller royal household expenditure in any of the past 20 years. and Auditor General and those reports will be laid The cost amounts to 51p per person per year in the UK. before Parliament. Should it wish to do so, the Committee That is a remarkably low price to pay for the royal of Public Accounts will also be able to scrutinise grant family’s profound contribution to public life. expenditure and will be able to invite the royal household The sovereign grant Bill will put that funding on an to give evidence. As we heard from the right hon. efficient, sustainable footing, and provide for it to be Member for Barking, her Committee is already looking fully accountable to Parliament and the public. These at how it may wish to fulfil its role in the accountability are necessary reforms and I commend the Bill to the of the sovereign grant. In fact, that was one of the main House. things that Parliament argued for before the Civil List Question put and agreed to. Act 1972. It was not implemented at that time, but it is Resolved, right to do so now. That— I very much welcome the valuable contributions of Members on both sides of the House—those of the (1) new provision be made for, or in connection with, the financial support of the Sovereign and of the heir to the throne; right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), the hon. Members for North Durham (Mr Jones) and for (2) any sums payable in respect of provision so made should be payable out of money provided by Parliament; Newport West (Paul Flynn), and my hon. Friends the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (3) provision be made enabling the continuation, in the reigns of Her Majesty’s successors, of the payment of the hereditary (John Thurso), for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) and revenues of the Crown as directed under section 1 of the Civil List for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood). They set the context Act 1952; for the debate that we will have on Second Reading of (4) provision be made about allowances and pensions under the Bill, which I will shortly present. Once that Bill is the Civil List Acts of 1837 and 1952; before the House, Members on both sides of the House (5) any sums payable in respect of such allowances and pensions will have a better chance of understanding the proposals by virtue of any provision so made should be charged on the and how they will impact on the sovereign grant. Consolidated Fund; As I have said, this is only the first debate. There will (6) it is expedient to amend the law relating to the financial be an opportunity to debate the matter in more detail support of members of the Royal Household. on Second Reading and in Committee, which will be a Ordered, That a Bill be brought in upon the foregoing Committee of the whole House. I am pleased that we Resolution; have had a good discussion this afternoon, and that That the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Prime there is agreement on a number of fundamental issues. Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of Her Majesty the Queen has given exemplary service the Exchequer, Mr Secretary Clarke, Mr Secretary to the country throughout her 60-year reign. She, and Hammond, Mr Secretary Hunt, Danny Alexander, other members of the royal family who support her in Mr Mark Hoban, Mr David Gauke and Justine Greening her official capacity, will continue to play a vital role bring in the Bill. in representing and promoting the UK and the Commonwealth. I know that my hon. Friend the Member The Treasurer of Her Majesty’s Household (Mr John for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) would Randall): The Prince of Wales, having been informed of agree wholeheartedly that it is right to provide the royal the subject matter of the Bill so far as it relates to the household with stable and sufficient support in those Duchy of Cornwall, recommends it to the consideration duties. of the House. As I have pointed out, the royal household has significantly reduced its expenditure. As the Chancellor SOVEREIGN GRANT BILL said, total spending by the royal household has reduced by almost £10 million over the past two decades. That is Presentation and First Reading a real-terms cut of more than 50% in 20 years, which no Justine Greening accordingly presented a Bill to make other Department can claim to have achieved. It is also provision for the honour and dignity of the Crown and right that we ensure that that provision is transparent the Royal Family; make provision about allowances and and accountable. In fact, on current assumptions, we pensions under the Civil List Acts of 1837 and 1952; expect the sovereign grant to be between £34 million and for connected purposes. and £36 million for 2013-14 and 2014-15. Such a level of Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time support is lower than it would have been under the old tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 213). 1179 30 JUNE 2011 Legislative Reform Order (Epping 1180 Forest) Legislative Reform Order (Epping Forest) and the fairground area would not necessarily concur with her observation? Given that she is a Home Office Minister and given that the Home Office—effectively in 3.39 pm its broadest family—has considered these proposals, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the will she tell the House why residents in the area were not Home Department (Lynne Featherstone): I beg to move, told of the other venues considered by the Metropolitan That the draft Legislative Reform (Epping Forest) Order 2011, police and on what basis they had been rejected? Surely which was laid before this House on 21 March, be approved. that should have been part of the consultation process. The 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games will be the greatest sporting festival this country has ever seen. Lynne Featherstone: My understanding was that there Athletes, officials, media representatives and spectators were three consultations, but indeed the other sites were will come from all over the world to enjoy top-class never open to selection by local people. As I explained competition, together with all the associated events that to the hon. Lady, however, that was because the police come with the Olympics. I am sure that all right hon. said that, operationally, only this site would facilitate a and hon. Members are as excited as I am about the muster centre of the necessary size and in a suitable prospect and number of applications for tickets, even if location. it has inevitably led to disappointment for a lot of John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): There people. It shows that the British people are similarly were three consultations, but at least two were deeply looking forward to the games. flawed. If anybody speaks to the people who live near Such a big event inevitably requires a significant the fairground site, which is almost entirely in my safety and security operation. Indeed, the police are constituency, they will struggle to find anybody who preparing for the largest ever peacetime security operation supports the construction of the muster centre. in this country. I am pleased to be able to say that planning is well under way, as was confirmed by the Lynne Featherstone: I will come to the consultation in audit and review that the Government carried out on due course, although I would say now that only taking office. In securing major events such as the 31 representations were made throughout the process. Notting Hill carnival, the Metropolitan Police Service The City of London corporation, which is responsible has developed a well-tested approach to hosting large for Wanstead flats, is content with this approach. I numbers of officers from outside its usual areas of work should make it clear that the Government accept that through the use of a temporary muster, briefing and there will be some disruption and inconvenience to deployment centre. That provides a facility where large local people, but are satisfied that this is the best solution numbers of officers can be gathered, fed and, most to a specific problem, serving the wider public interest. importantly, briefed before being sent off to their duties. It is also worth pointing out that the Metropolitan police will pay £170,000 in lieu of rent, in addition to Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): I thank the hon. Lady the costs of making good the site. That sum will help to for her opening remarks. We are all looking forward to create lasting legacy benefits for those who use Epping the Olympic games, and we are very excited in the east forest. end of London, but on this specific proposal, will she tell me what other venues were considered for this Lyn Brown: The Minister rightly says that the police important site? are paying £170,000 a year, effectively for 120 days, which works out at about £1,500 a day. Given the cost Lynne Featherstone: I will come to the venues. However, of putting the area back to its former use once the I can tell the hon. Lady that 29 were considered, but muster site has gone, is she really convinced that that is that only this one—Wanstead flats in Epping forest—was enough money properly to reinstate the flats to a state considered suitable. That was an operational matter for at which they can benefit the local community? the police; it was not for the Government to intervene or make suggestions on. I will deal with that in more Lynne Featherstone: I think the hon. Lady has detail later, however. misunderstood what I said. The £170,000 is additional Three muster centres are planned for the London to the duty and obligation on the police to put the site 2012 Olympics. The main one will be needed to support back to its original condition within the 90-day period, the main Olympic park area, the transport hub at and the £170,000 is for the local area to spend to Stratford and other Olympic facilities. The police and advance the site and make it better than it was before. emergency services already have facilities built into the The cost of putting it back to its current condition is park itself, but the police need to have a base that is a above and beyond the £170,000. sensible distance from the site, not least so that they can Wanstead flats are legally part of Epping forest. The respond sensibly in the event of an incident that puts Epping Forest Act 1878 prohibits the enclosure of any the park out of action. The Metropolitan police are part of the forest, even on a temporary basis, and that is satisfied that the fairground site at the southern end of why we have brought forward a legislative reform order Wanstead flats in Epping forest is the best option for a to make a temporary amendment to the Act. Let me deployment centre. The fairground site offers the best make it quite clear that the Government have no wish to combination of location and access, minimises disruption see any change to the status of Epping forest, which is a to local people and is the most cost-effective solution to well-loved amenity. Accordingly, the order before us is the needs of the police. strictly time-limited and at the conclusion of the games the muster, briefing and deployment centre will be Lyn Brown: The hon. Lady says that it will create removed, the land will be restored to its former status minimal disruption to local people. May I gently suggest and the full protections of the 1878 Act will remain to her that local people in the vicinity of Wanstead flats intact. No lasting change to the law will be made. 1181 Legislative Reform Order (Epping 30 JUNE 2011 Legislative Reform Order (Epping 1182 Forest) Forest) [Lynne Featherstone] I shall touch on one specific issue—whether the Home Office should have consulted just on the legislative Our proposals have already been subject to consideration options for Wanstead Flats or whether it should also by three separate parliamentary Committees—the have introduced possible alternative sites into the equation. Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee As the published documents make clear, the Metropolitan and the Hybrid Instruments Committee in another police considered a very large number of possible sites place, and this House’s Select Committee on Regulatory in north-east London for the muster, briefing and Reform. It is on the latter that I should like briefly to deployment centre. Applying objective criteria they focus. I am grateful to the members of the Regulatory concluded that Wanstead Flats was the only suitable Reform Committee, which is chaired by my hon. Friend site. That was the clear professional, operational advice the Member for Poole (Mr Syms), for its very thorough from the police to the Government, and I think it would and comprehensive report on the order, which was have been very difficult, and dangerous, for the Home published on 6 May. I am pleased to note that it stated Office to try to countermand that advice. I do not at paragraph 49: believe the effectiveness or the clarity of the consultation “The Government…believes there are good reasons to maintain process would have been enhanced had we included the restrictions in the 1878 Act rather than removing them in their reference to alternative sites that had already been ruled entirety, so has proposed to limit the position, coverage area and out as unsuitable. Indeed, to have done so might have duration of the LRO provisions. We support this belief and agree unnecessarily alarmed residents living near those sites. that the proposal is a proportionate measure to achieve the policy objective.” Finally, on the question whether this sets a precedent for future development on Wanstead Flats or, indeed, The Committee went on to say, at paragraphs 50 and other open spaces, the answer is emphatically no. The 51, that it agreed Olympics are a unique event in terms of their scale and “that the proposal strikes a fair balance between the public the policing challenge they present, and I can think of interest and the interests of any person adversely affected by nothing else that would require similar arrangements to it…and…does not remove any necessary protection.” be made. More than that, the particular legislative route The Committee went on to recommend that the order that we have adopted means that even if a future should be approved. Government were minded to put buildings on Wanstead I would like to address a couple of concerns that the Flats, even temporarily, they would have to start all the Committee raised, some of which have also been raised procedures again from scratch and secure fresh by Members. The first relates to consultation. The parliamentary approval. Nine months into the process proposal was subject to three separate consultation and after three public consultations and three parliamentary processes during the second half of 2010, covering the committees, I can assure hon. Members that that is police proposals to use the site, the specifics of the LRO something not easily obtained. itself and the planning permission from Redbridge council. I am sorry to have spoken at some length, but I The latter was unanimously approved by the council’s thought it was important to address these issues. In regulatory committee on 24 February 2011, subject to conclusion, I return to where I started. The success of conditions to which the Metropolitan Police Service has the 2012 safety and security operation depends on the agreed. Every effort was made to involve and consult police being able to operate effectively, and the muster, local people and to give them an opportunity to express briefing and deployment centre on Wanstead Flats is an their views. That included leafleting the streets most integral part of that. The proposal before the House is a directly affected and holding public meetings and exhibitions proportionate measure. It enables the policing operation in the area. Respondents and petitioners clearly were to take place while making no lasting change to the not deterred from contesting the principles in the proposal. protection granted by the Epping Forest Act. The previous Security Minister, Baroness Neville-Jones, held two specific meetings on this issue with the hon. Lyn Brown: Notwithstanding the other points that I Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) and I have made, does the Minister genuinely believe, and can am grateful to him for his support in this matter. she categorically assure my constituents, that this is a This is complex territory and I accept the Committee’s temporary, one-off measure, that it will not happen view that the consultation was imperfect. I apologise for again and that it will not be a precedent for future use that. Nevertheless, the Committee did conclude, at by anybody else following the Olympic games? paragraph 53, that the Home Office “has respectably arguable grounds for concluding that its consultation Lynne Featherstone: Yes. If there ever were to be was adequate.” anything on the scale of the Olympics—something that It is also worth pointing out that the Hybrid Instruments none of us in the House today can imagine—the process Committee in another place invited petitions against would have to be started all over again, and there would the order and, having considered them carefully, decided be opportunities to comment. The answer to the hon. not to recommend that the order be referred to a special Lady, in the scope of what one can imagine, is yes. Select Committee, in part because We are satisfied that the proposed LRO is the best “Many of the matters complained of in the petitions have been solution to a specific, time-limited problem in the unique so dealt with, in particular by the normal planning process or in circumstances of the 2012 games. I request that the the report to the House by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory House support the measure. Reform Committee (4th Report, 2010-12), that no further inquiry into them is necessary”. 3.53 pm That quote was from paragraph 6 of the House of Lords Hybrid Instruments Committee’s First Report of Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Session 2010-12, on the Legislative Reform (Epping Friends the Members for Leyton and Wanstead (John Forest) Order 2011. Cryer), for West Ham (Lyn Brown) and for Walthamstow 1183 Legislative Reform Order (Epping 30 JUNE 2011 Legislative Reform Order (Epping 1184 Forest) Forest) (Stella Creasy) on the way in which they have represented and Criminal Justice is doing. It is a little churlish of their constituents’ views on this matter. Anyone who me, but I thought I should point that out as another has had a conversation with them about the issue is left U-turn. in no doubt about the strength of the opposition locally When we deal with local communities like the one in to the proposals. east London, we must remember that they will still be I am sure that we all welcome the fact that we have there when everyone has gone home, waiting to see the Olympic games coming to London. We also understand whether the organisers of the games have proved as that it is impossible to have the world’s greatest sporting good as their word and delivered on their promises. The spectacle take place in our great city without we, as people opposing these plans feel that insufficient effort hosts, accepting some inconvenience if we are to put on has been made to find alternative sites and there is a safe, efficient and enjoyable games. Our aim must be concern locally that it could set a precedent for future to showcase our city and country and confirm our events. I welcome the comments that the Minister has status as one of the world’s leading nations, a place that just made to give reassurances on that. people want to visit and do business in. However, we Will the Minister clarify the position on the future must also remember that foremost in the minds of local use of the 2006 Act? Is it the case that to use this site in people is the legacy. One way that the success of the the same way in the future, the same procedure will have games will be judged, when the pomp and fanfare has to be used and Members of Parliament will again have been and gone, is the legacy left for the people of the opportunity to bring the matter to the Floor of the London, particularly those who live in and around the House if there is strong opposition? Will she also give Olympic boroughs. We all understand and accept that an assurance that the corporation of London will consult in order to deliver a safe and efficient games the the local community and involve it in future decisions Metropolitan police must be free to make judgments on this site? From the conversations that I have had, and decisions on operational matters, and the Minister there is a feeling that the local community has been left has our full support in that, but it is unfortunate that out of those discussions. this decision is being made in the face of local opposition. I am sure that the Minister will want to reassure local people that their concerns about the future of the site Lyn Brown: Notwithstanding what the Minister said will be considered. about the site being restored following its use as a muster site, I know from my time in local government Wanstead Flats is a highly valued and essential open how much argument there can be about whether there space in that part of London. In the short time I had to has been true restoration of green and open spaces. prepare for the debate, and being that sort of anorak, I There are inevitably arguments about how much restoration decided to look up the history of Wanstead Flats and will cost and to what standard it should be done. Given discovered that attempts to enclose it and restrict access my fear that the £170,000 will be used to restore the site, for the common people have long been a source of rather than to enhance it, does my hon. Friend agree controversy. In 1871, Henry Wellesley, Earl Cowley, that the police are getting the site rather on the cheap attempted to enclose another piece of the flats. An and that they should up their cash so that local people advertisement with the headline “Save The Forest” really have something to invest in the site at a later date? encouraged working men to “Attend by Thousands” an open air meeting on Wanstead Flats on Saturday 8 July 1871 and protest against the enclosure. We are dealing Clive Efford: I am not qualified to say what the true with a highly sensitive site in east London that has a value of the site is and what a proper rent would be. history of local activism to protect it. As that piece of However, I do not think that the £170,000 should be history demonstrates, it is clearly because local people used to restore the site. It should be available as a legacy have campaigned effectively to protect it that it is still and be spent in consultation with local people. I was there for us to debate in the House today. just about to make that very point. According to the briefing paper provided by the Residents of Leytonstone and Forest Gate campaign, Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): To be to which I am grateful, the site is designated as green clear, we are talking about a large structure, stables for belt and green corridor land, as heritage land and as a up to 54 horses, an area for dogs and parking for site of metropolitan importance for nature conservation. 375 vehicles on a site that has dense vegetation. Many To of the north of the site is a part of the flats that is of my constituents very much enjoy going to the Wanstead designated as a site of special scientific interest. As a Flats. I hope the shadow Minister can understand why veteran of the campaign to stop the east London river we are concerned about the restoration of the land, not crossing and protect Oxley woods, which is also an just in its quality, but in its content. That is vital to the SSSI, I sympathise with the people who are sensitive future of the site. about the use of the site and wish to protect it for the future. Clive Efford: Absolutely. People will need reassurance The Epping Forest Act 1878 lays down a legal about the management of that process and should have framework for the preservation and management of some input into it to ensure that the standards are not Epping forest, requiring its conservators to keep it for diminished, that the site is restored to its former state local use. I will not list the six requirements set out in and that the damage is not permanent. The only way to the Act because I want other local Members to have reassure the local community is to involve it in the enough time to speak. Suffice it to say that the previous process. I ask the Minister to clarify who will ultimately Government introduced the Legislative and Regulatory be responsible for overseeing this. Does she have any Reform Act 2006, which gives the powers to set aside influence over the body that will be responsible so that the 1878 Act, which is what the Minister for Policing she can ensure that it involves the local community? 1185 Legislative Reform Order (Epping 30 JUNE 2011 Legislative Reform Order (Epping 1186 Forest) Forest) [Clive Efford] As we have heard, a number of concerns were expressed in our report, such as the fact that the consultation I am grateful for the Minister’s unequivocal statement document contained an avoidable error. that the £170,000 is for the restoration of the site and not its repair. Will she guarantee that it will be spent in Lyn Brown: The hon. Gentleman is an honourable consultation with local people, who have demonstrated man. Does he not agree that given the state of the through their campaign a great love of and commitment consultation, local people have a right to be concerned? to the site? From their experience of living near the site Does he also accept the point made by my hon. Friend and visiting it regularly, they will have essential expertise the Member for Eltham (Clive Efford) that how and and ideas on how the money can best be spent. where the £170,000 will eventually be spent is a concern, I hope the Minister agrees that when it comes to the given the botched consultation? legacy, it is issues such as this that will determine in the long run whether local people and communities in the Olympic boroughs feel that the Olympic games have Mr Syms: There were clearly problems with the been in the interests of ordinary people, their local consultation, although it is true that, as the Minister communities and London. I hope that the Minister will said, there were only 31 replies. However, my Committee do everything in her power to ensure that those communities still found that it wished to approve the order, and I are involved not just in planning the legacy on this side hope that the House will do so today. It seems to me of the games, but in delivering it post the games. that there would be a very good reason for local Members to write to the Home Office to put pressure on the Metropolitan police, and indeed the City of London 4.4 pm corporation, so that there is some local involvement in how the £170,000 is spent. Once the site is repaired, if it Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): I rise as Chairman of is used by many of the hon. Lady’s constituents, they the Regulatory Reform Committee. The draft order and clearly ought to be consulted about what improvements the explanatory document were laid before the House are made. That seems to be a matter for another day, on 21 March under section 14(1) of the Legislative and but I am glad that she has put her point on the record. Regulatory Reform Act 2006. The Government Although the difficulties with the consultation were recommended that the draft order be subject to the unfortunate, the Committee concluded that that should affirmative procedure, under section 17 of the Act. not inhibit the progress of the draft order and did not The draft order proposes an insertion into the Epping alter the fact of the site’s utilisation. There was concern Forest Act 1878 that would allow the Metropolitan about the adequacy of the consultation, because the Police Authority to erect a muster, briefing and deployment wording used in the consultation document was potentially centre on Wanstead Flats for up to 90 days. As we have deficient. Wanstead Flats was described as heard in the debate, it will be quite a busy centre, with “essential to ensuring the safety and security of the Games”, perhaps upwards of 3,500 police officers on certain days of the Olympics, providing security at the Stratford which was a bit of an overstatement, even though it was centre, the Olympic stadium and various other stadiums clearly the preferable site. in that part of London. The consultation was poorly conceived, which raised The Home Office has reassured the Committee that unnecessary worries among local residents, and took the draft order is a temporary provision that constitutes place nearly a year after Wanstead Flats was identified no precedent, as we have heard from the Minister. It as the preferred site. It was limited in scope to rule out believes that it is the most efficient way to ensure the comments on alternative sites, and the document contained safety and security of the 2012 games, following a site a factual error about the criminal sanction. The poor selection process that found Wanstead Flats to be the design and preparation of the consultation gave the most suitable location. Clearly, we are all concerned impression that the process was a done deal, and that about security. the legislative reform order was being used as the easiest way to reach the desired solution. That is one reason The Committee considered the draft order on 3 May. why we are having this debate on the Floor of the It concluded that the affirmative resolution procedure House today. was appropriate and recommended that the draft order be approved. The report was agreed, but following a The fact that the Metropolitan Police Service is clear Division in which the Committee divided five to three. that it requires the site for the policing of the Olympics Under the procedures of the House, when there is a is a persuasive, but not conclusive, reason for the narrow Division the matter has to be referred to the Floor of terms of the consultation, as it has no statutory function the House. in relation to the Olympics. Direct responsibility for the centre lies with the Metropolitan Police Service, which I think it fair to say that members of the Committee formulated the site criteria. Its assessment against those were sympathetic to local Members, particularly the criteria found that Wanstead Flats was the only site to hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer), meet all of them. However, it would have been more who wanted to attend the Committee but could not appropriate if the consultation document had taken under the Standing Orders of the House. He made that assessment as a starting assumption that the representations himself to the Metropolitan Police Service Department expected to adopt unless persuaded otherwise. and the consultation, and I hope that he will catch your eye in a moment, Mr Deputy Speaker, to represent the As we have heard, the consultation generated 31 views and concerns of his constituents. The debate responses. The explanatory document dealt with them provides an opportunity for local Members to make in a rather perfunctory manner and should have contained their concerns known. a more detailed response and information. Despite the 1187 Legislative Reform Order (Epping 30 JUNE 2011 Legislative Reform Order (Epping 1188 Forest) Forest) concerns raised, the report concludes that the Department particularly over Wanstead Flats. The 1878 Act states has “respectably arguable” grounds for believing that its clearly that the land should remain open and undeveloped. consultation was adequate. On an 1882 visit to High Beach, another part of Epping The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform forest, Queen Victoria declared Epping forest dedicated Committee of the House of Lords reported on the draft to the free use and enjoyment by the public “for all order on 4 May. It, too, considered the Government’s time”. However, the City of London, having had quite consultation to have been “very poorly handled”, and an honourable record, has now spinelessly lain down drew this to the House’s attention, while concluding and abandoned its traditional defence of local people that the draft order was appropriate to proceed. As we and the local amenity, and decided to go along with the have heard, a Hybrid Instruments Committee of the creation of a police muster centre without even the use House of Lords considered the draft order on 23 May, of primary legislation to do so. There was some house concluding that there ought not to be a further inquiry building there during the war, between 1939 and 1945, by a Select Committee into any of the matters complained but that took place under the wartime emergency powers of by the eight petitioners. legislation, which is a crucial point. That was primary legislation, and as soon as hostilities ended, the emergency There were genuine concerns, which is why the matter powers legislation lapsed and the 1878 Act came back has been referred to the Floor of the House, so that into prominence. As a result, the houses were moved—as local Members can raise those concerns. I am sure that a matter of fact, I recently met somebody who lived in there are further discussions to be had on another day one of the houses on Wanstead Flats until about 1950-51. about the details of the improvements to the site and the £170,000. However, I hope that the House concludes I want to run through what I see as the major points that the site in question is the most appropriate and will in these proposals. As for the location, which has been support my Committee’s decision by voting for this raised before, the Home Office explanatory document order today. says: “It is a large site close to the Olympic Park and new Westfield shopping centre through which a large percentage of visitors to 4.10 pm the Park will transit.” John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): We have However, the site is actually not particularly near either, certainly had contrasting debates this afternoon. Let so that argument starts to fall down. Many locals—certainly me start by saying—I will make my reasons clear—that people in my constituency who live near the site—have I am speaking against the order. I do not support it in asked why the muster centre cannot be built on the any way, and I do not want to mislead the Minister by Olympic site itself. I have yet to hear a compelling putting her in the position of believing me somehow to argument in favour of the muster centre being established be offering my support, because I am not. The order on Wanstead Flats, which are a considerable distance and the proposed creation of the muster centre have from the Olympic site and from the Westfield shopping caused deep concern among my constituents. Wanstead centre. Flats are a cherished local amenity and have been since I also have to raise the question of security. A number 1878. They have actually been a local amenity for of local people have said that the police muster centre longer than that, but they have been recognised in could be a target for terrorists. That is certainly a statute for nearly 140 years, since 1878. The decision to possibility, given that the plans for the centre are widely build a police muster centre for the 2012 Olympics on a available online, whereas the specific plans for the Olympic piece of much cherished and precious piece of common site itself are rather more difficult to get to grips with. land is simply wrong and should not have gone through As far as traffic is concerned, the route from the in the first place. muster centre to the Olympics will be a circuitous one Let me go back over some of the history of Epping involving the use of the A12. The reserve plans, for use forest and Wanstead Flats, which are partly in my in certain situations, involve the use of fairly narrow constituency. Epping forest has been fought over for roads such as Cann Hall road, and an increase in traffic centuries, as my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham could cause serious problems for police transport accessing (Clive Efford) mentioned. In the 18th and early the Olympic site. Mixed messages about transport have 19th centuries there were fights over enclosure. Repeated been given to the public in east London. An Olympic attempts were made to enclose the land—as there were planning document states that there will be a traffic across the south-east of England—but the campaigns downturn during the games, although I cannot imagine launched and fought by local people kept it as common what evidence that is based on. Local businesses, on the land. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, there other hand, have been clearly told that they should were battles over house building. As London rapidly expect a rise in the volume of traffic. Both cases seem to spread eastwards into Essex, there were successful have been put forward as an argument for building the campaigns to maintain Epping forest—and, therefore, police muster centre, so I would be grateful if the Wanstead Flats—as a local amenity. The Epping Forest Minister could tell me which is correct. Is there going to Act 1878 was the result of those campaigns, and it has be a downturn or an upturn in traffic? How will that kept the area as an amenity for local people ever since. answer back up the argument for the creation of the The City of London corporation has long been seen muster centre? as the defender of local people—ironic, in view of what On compensation, I have to say that £170,000 is a has happened recently. It has fought battles against paltry amount to pay for the site. The rent on an landowners and others to prevent encroachments on equivalent brownfield site in the south-east of England common land. That is why the City of London corporation for a period of 90 days would be in the region of was made the conservator of Epping forest. Over the £1.5 million. Wanstead Flats are obviously not a brownfield past 150 years there have been more recent battles, site, and an equivalent site would cost nearer to £3 million 1189 Legislative Reform Order (Epping 30 JUNE 2011 Legislative Reform Order (Epping 1190 Forest) Forest) [John Cryer] For a start, we need a guarantee that the muster centre will be gone after 90 days. The original plan was to rent for that period, yet the City of London Corporation for 120 days; it was then cut to 90 days, so we need an is perfectly content to say to the Metropolitan police, absolute guarantee that the police’s muster centre will “We’ll take 170,000 quid.” That is an absolutely pathetic last for no more than 90 days. Secondly, the Minister amount of compensation, especially as far as local has already touched on this matter, but it needs to be people are concerned. made absolutely clear that this will not set any precedent. We are potentially amending primary legislation, which Stella Creasy: It is estimated that the land will be out could be used in future court cases to set a precedent of use for at least six months while the vegetation that might allow developers to build on Wanstead Flats. recovers, yet we will get no recompense for the lack of That needs to be dismissed absolutely so that in future use of that common land for all that time. court cases, today’s proceedings can be cited and developers told clearly that the Government had no intention of John Cryer: I thank my hon. Friend for making that creating a precedent. very good point. I will touch on that further in a minute. We also need guarantees that the order will be complied Three consultations have taken place, as has been with to the letter and we need to know how the consultation mentioned. One was a straightforward planning on the disposal of the £170,000 will be conducted. Who consultation conducted by Redbridge council, the local will be consulted, who will run the consultation, and planning authority. The Metropolitan police consultation who will make the judgment that the land has been was one of the most bizarre that I have ever come returned to its original use and its original state? I can across. It could be accessed only online, so none of my feel an Adjournment debate coming on at some point in constituents could write a letter to the Metropolitan the future if we are not satisfied that all the criteria are police. They had to make their submissions to the being met. In the meantime, I leave it to the Minister to consultation online and it dealt only with specific questions. answer these questions. I believe that those factors alone should render that consultation null and void, because it was not a proper consultation. It was conducted entirely on the Metropolitan 4.22 pm police’s terms, and it excluded an awful lot of people in my constituency who do not have access to the internet. Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): I begin by The Home Office consultation focused on section 34 apologising for not being in the Chamber at the beginning of the Epping Forest Act 1878, which was a bizarre way of this debate. I was attempting to enter the House but to go about it, given that that section ceased to be in the events occurring in the immediate area around force in about 1882. I would have thought that someone Parliament right now have undemocratically deprived might spot that. The section of the Act that the consultation me of access. Given that we are debating a narrow should have dealt with is section 7, which I want to order, Mr Deputy Speaker, it would be inappropriate quote in full. It states: for me to discuss the workings of democracy, so I will not do so or take up any more of the House’s time on “Subject to the provisions of this Act, the Conservators shall the subject, but I do make the point that if Members of at all times keep Epping Forest uninclosed and unbuilt on, as an open space for the recreation and enjoyment of the public; and Parliament are denied access to the House of Commons they shall by all lawful means prevent, resist and abate all future through action taken by other people in the Westminster inclosures, encroachments, and buildings, and all attempts to area, that is an affront to democracy. That is the best inclose, encroach or build on any part thereof, or to appropriate excuse I have ever had for being late! or use the same, or the soil, timber, or road thereof, or any part thereof, for any purpose inconsistent with the objects of this Although this legislative reform order specifically Act.” refers to Epping forest and I represent the Epping It is difficult to argue that that is in any way ambivalent. Forest constituency, I must explain that the piece of It is absolutely crystal clear: that building on Wanstead land in question is not in my constituency, but almost Flats or in Epping forest—the Act covers the whole of entirely in that of the hon. Member for Leyton and Epping forest—was intolerable to Parliament at the Wanstead (John Cryer). It is he who has the duty to time. speak on behalf of local people, but I have every sympathy with the points he has made. Wanstead Flats The Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006 is are part of Epping forest, and although my Epping being used for the first time to attack the central purpose Forest constituency does not cover the whole of the of legislation from a past era. The 2006 Act has been forest geographically I am nevertheless always concerned used in the past to make what can now be seen as for the protection of our wonderful and ancient forest. relatively minor amendments to legislation, but here it It is the duty of us all, and particularly those with an attacks the central thrust of the 1878 Act because it interest in this particular area of London and Essex, to undermines section 7—the whole basis of the legislation. be concerned for the preservation of Epping forest The purpose of the 2006 Act was to remove regulatory itself. Any threat to our forest is unacceptable. burdens, but in this case, it is about removing protection— protection afforded to the people of east London since The hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead has 1878. waxed lyrical—and rightly so—about the dangers of enclosure and about the historical position that has This should never have gone ahead and it has probably seen people of east London and Essex fight literally for happened because of all the mistakes made during the centuries to ensure the preservation of our forest. consultations. It is almost certainly vulnerable to judicial review if anyone wanted to take up that case. There are, As the hon. Gentleman has just explained, that culminated however, one or two guarantees that we need to secure in the Epping Forest Act. All of us who are concerned from the Minister at the end of this debate. with the forest and its preservation will never allow 1191 Legislative Reform Order (Epping 30 JUNE 2011 Legislative Reform Order (Epping 1192 Forest) Forest) anything to happen, in the House or anywhere else, that Mrs Laing: I cannot answer the right hon. Gentleman’s would undermine its preservation. Enclosure was wicked question, but I agree that assurances must be given on a and took resources away from people who needed them, time scale within which the work on Wanstead Flats but nowadays the threat is somewhat different: it is must be undertaken and completed. It is not for me to generally a threat of house building and overdevelopment answer the detail of his question, however. on what ought to be one of the most important lungs of Although I am very concerned at all times for the London. I agree with all that the hon. Gentleman said preservation of Epping forest, I do trust the Committee in that regard. that examined the order; I have heard what my hon. In 1882 Queen Victoria visited High Beech, which is Friend the Member for Poole (Mr Syms) has said, and I in my constituency, and only a couple of weeks ago I trust him and his Committee to have properly scrutinised went to see the oak tree that she planted when she was this proposed small piece of legislation. On that basis as there. Actually, that one died; another was planted two well, I can support the order. years later, and still stands as a permanent reminder of Like all our other commonly owned property, Epping the importance of preserving the forest for the people. forest is there for the good of all the people, not just Queen Victoria said that she was dedicating those who live in the immediate area of Wanstead Flats “this beautiful forest to the… enjoyment of my people” or the forest itself; and for the good of all the people, for ever. there is a wider public interest here. The Olympics are also for the good of all the people. My part of London I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the forest must and Essex will benefit enormously from the fact that an be preserved for the enjoyment of the people for ever, historic world event is being held on our doorstep. but I disagree with him slightly on another point. I feel Therefore, we have to play our part in contributing to able to support the order because it refers specifically to the effort for the Olympics for the temporary period a 90-day period. If it were a general order allowing the that that effort is required. The conservators of the forest to be used in any way in perpetuity, I would join forest are trying to accommodate that wider public the hon. Gentleman in expressing deep concern. interest by making arrangements with the Metropolitan Furthermore, the area in question constitutes only about police for Wanstead Flats to be used for this temporary 2% of Wanstead Flats and is already used for circuses, period, and I therefore feel that I can support the order. fireworks and other forms of enjoyment. It is therefore geographically suitable for the purpose for which it is to be used during those 90 days. 4.32 pm I hear what Opposition Members say about the payment being made by the Metropolitan police. As the Minister Lynne Featherstone: I wish to respond briefly to some explained earlier—I was not present, but owing to the of the many concerns raised in this debate. I am grateful wonders of modern technology I was able to listen to to all the Members who participated, and I appreciate her on a mobile phone— that this proposal raises strong local feelings about the protection of what is a valuable open space in north-east London. I can assure the House that I would be adding Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con): my voice to that of the opponents of the proposal if I Hands-free? thought that this was an attempt in any way to destroy a much-loved open space or to weaken permanently the Mrs Laing: Yes, it was. I am glad to be able to make protections guaranteed by the Epping Forest Act 1878. that absolutely clear. It is neither of those things. This measure is constrained As the Minister explained, the Metropolitan police in scope and time, and it will leave all the provisions of are making a significant payment to the conservators of the Act in place exactly as they were, while Wanstead Epping forest, in lieu of rent, and in addition to the Flats will be restored to its previous state. payment for the restoration of the site. I hear what The hon. Members for Leyton and Wanstead (John Opposition Members say about the amount involved, Cryer) and for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) made speeches, but the important point is that the entire amount paid and they understandably have a strong interest in the by the Metropolitan police will be used for the enhancement subject. They show great care for their constituents and of Wanstead Flats. Opposition Members argue that the the well-being of this much loved space. The hon. amount should be greater, but I do not agree. Money Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) asked if £170,000 paid by the Metropolitan police is taxpayers’ money, was sufficient in lieu of rent. That figure was arrived at and if it is used for the enhancement of Wanstead Flats, following discussions between the Metropolitan police it obviously cannot be used for the prevention of crime and the City of London on what would constitute a and the maintenance of law and order. There is a wider reasonable payment for the temporary use of the land. interest. It is absolutely right for an amount to be paid The police are a public service, so they rightly should for the enhancement of Wanstead Flats, but it should consider getting best value for money. It would be odd not be larger than the amount that has already been for London taxpayers to expect their local police to negotiated. spend more money, not less. The hon. Member for Eltham (Clive Efford) asked Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): Does the hon. whether local people would be consulted on the nature Lady interpret the order as meaning that the restoration of the structures put on Wanstead Flats. I am sure that must be completed before the end of the 90-day period? the Metropolitan police will want to consult local people. My reading of it does not make it clear whether it He also asked whether local people will be consulted on means that the Metropolitan police must have left by the future of Wanstead Flats. That is a matter for the then, or that the restoration must have taken place. City of London Corporation, but I can assure the 1193 Legislative Reform Order (Epping 30 JUNE 2011 Legislative Reform Order (Epping 1194 Forest) Forest) [Lynne Featherstone] delivering the London Olympic games; no doubt, Secretaries of State and other Ministers will be posing for photographs House that the City has said it will consult local people with famous sports personalities and so on as they on the use of that part of the £170,000 that is above and arrive. So it is not good enough to say that all this about beyond what is required for the use of the land. restoring the site is a local skirmish between the local community and the City of London corporation. Does Lyn Brown: I appreciate that the hon. Lady might not the Minister not think that the Government have a duty have this information to hand, but who will be the to ensure that the corporation is as good as its word and arbiter of whether or not the restoration has properly to represent local people who have these concerns when happened to a standard required? the site is being restored?

Lynne Featherstone: I do not have to hand an official Lynne Featherstone: The hon. Gentleman does the answer per se, but I would be surprised if local people, corporation a disservice, because its reputation is generally the hon. Lady and other hon. Members did not raise very good and people would often like it to take things this issue if the restoration were not done to what local over. people felt was the right standard and if the area had not been restored to the state in which it was found. The Lyn Brown indicated dissent. restoration is about that and the £170,000 is about enhancing the land above and beyond the state it was in Lynne Featherstone: The hon. Lady is shaking her when the police first came to use it. head. I will not tempt her further and will write to hon. Members on this matter. Lyn Brown: May I intervene one last time? The traffic issue might be one of the things that worries local people the most. The Olympics will be Lynne Featherstone: One last time. taking place during the school summer holidays, so traffic levels will be lower than normal. The muster Lyn Brown: Should we find difficulty in appealing centre will cause some increase in the level of traffic, but against the state in which the Flats have been left after all officers will arrive by coach, not in individual vehicles the police have gone and after the restoration has taken and, as I said, Transport for London is content that this place, to whom would we appeal? Will the hon. Lady proposal will not give rise to undue problems. write to me or have the appropriate Minister write to I was asked whether this order would set a precedent, me on that point? and the answer is no. I am happy to put on the record the fact that should any future Government want to do Lynne Featherstone: I am happy to do that, but may I something similar—I can see no reason why they would; suggest to the hon. Lady that photographs would be that is outside the scope of imagination because the useful in that regard? Olympics is the biggest event this country will be hosting— I was asked whether the legislative reform order they would have to repeat this procedure and secure procedure would be required if ever a proposal were parliamentary approval all over again. I was asked how made to put something similar on Wanstead Flats, and we can be sure that the police will be off the site after the answer is yes. As I explained during my opening 90 days, and that they will have no legal power to be on remarks, we would have to go through all this all over the site beyond that point. again—there is no question about that. The hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead asked Stephen Timms: I want to pick up the point I raised why the facility was not part of the local Olympic park with the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing). itself. There will be facilities for the police and emergency Does the order mean that the restoration must have services, including front-counter services, on the park, happened within 90 days or simply that the police must but we are talking about different things here, as there have left within 90 days? are operational reasons why a briefing centre needs to be a reasonable distance from the park. Obviously, if Lynne Featherstone: The police will have dismantled anything happened in the park, people would need to the muster, briefing and deployment centre, it will be off come from outside to deal with it. the site and they will have made the necessary restorations within the 90 days. Redbridge council considered the traffic problems as part of the planning application and was content that We are satisfied that the proposal is sound in principle the proposals would not damage the local environment. and practice and all the statutory gatekeepers have Transport for London raised no objections, and the broadly agreed with us. As I said, that includes the three location was chosen, in part, to avoid potential traffic parliamentary Committees as well as the local council, nuisance. as the planning authority. The proposed LRO will ensure that the 2012 games are a safe and secure spectacle that Clive Efford: Before the hon. Lady wanders too far can be enjoyed by all those involved, particularly those from this subject, may I take her back to the issue of the who have tickets. site? It is not good enough just to say that the City of Question put and agreed to. London corporation is responsible for restoring the site Resolved, for the local community.After all, the previous Government That the draft Legislative Reform (Epping Forest) Order 2011, and this Government have been all over this project of which was laid before this House on 21 March, be approved. 1195 30 JUNE 2011 Liverpool Passport Office 1196

Liverpool Passport Office 14 permanent employment contracts, and that indeed is the key question. I understand that the letter was never Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House dispatched. Why? do now adjourn.—(Jeremy Wright.) It is alleged that the letter was never dispatched 4.40 pm because of concerns that it would embarrass David Normington, then permanent secretary at the Home Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): Office and now first civil service commissioner and I am pleased to have the opportunity to bring to the commissioner for public appointments. Is that correct? attention of the House a matter of great importance: It is worth noting that David Normington would be in a the dismissal of 14 staff at the Liverpool passport office difficult position to adjudicate the current situation. because of a major error made by their employer, the Instead of the 14 Liverpool staff being informed of Identity and Passport Service, an executive agency of their problem at a time when more alternative jobs were the Home Office. available, they became unemployed two years later, I thank the Minister for meeting Liverpool MPs and when job opportunities were decreasing and educational arranging for us to discuss the situation with him and and training courses were being curtailed. key staff. I also thank him for forwarding us a copy of the internal review into the issue, although it came Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): complete with many redactions. The key facts are not My constituent, Denise Wheatcroft, who is 58 years old disputed. On 21 March 2011, 14 permanent staff at and the oldest of the group of 14 people, took the post Liverpool passport office were called to a hastily convened with the Identity and Passport Service because she meeting to be told that what they thought was their thought that it would guarantee her employment until permanent employment had abruptly ended. Four were her retirement. She now finds herself without a job dismissed immediately and 10 were switched to temporary aged 58. Does my hon. Friend agree that, if Denise had employment, which has now finished for most of them. been informed of the situation when it was discovered, The reason given was that the IPS had made a major and in advance of the current situation, given the cuts error in awarding those staff permanent employment that are impacting on Liverpool in particular, she would status from September 2008 when they were recruited have been in a much better situation than she is today? under a friends and family scheme. The rules under which they were recruited meant they should only have Mrs Ellman: I thank my hon. Friend for her comments been given temporary employment status for a maximum and certainly agree. Indeed, she provides an example of of two years. The employees were unaware of that fact the human cost of what has happened in Liverpool. and they had been given permanent status by their It has been said that the decision to dismiss the employer. The sudden dismissals without warning shocked 14 employees was taken on the basis of “legal advice”, and angered the staff, some of whom had left their and it has even been claimed that to maintain their previous employment to take up what they thought was employment would have been “illegal”. I challenge that. a new career. Others had taken out loans or mortgages I have seen no evidence that any formal legal advice was on the basis of their permanent employment. Indeed, sought or obtained, and Paul Luffman’s letter seeking the whole office remains upset. such advice was never sent. I want to raise serious, still unresolved, issues about Telephone conversations and personal discussions, the conduct of the IPS in this sorry saga and the current which I am told took place, do not constitute formal status of the dismissed staff. There is considerable confusion legal advice; nor is there any record of the questions to about what happened. I have in my possession a very which any verbal advice responded. The suggestion of interesting letter dated 4 January 2011, written by Paul “illegality” in allowing those employees to continue Luffman, head of employee relations at IPS, and addressed with the permanent status that they were awarded is to Barry Forrester at the office of the Civil Service grossly misleading and an attempt to divert attention Commission. According to the letter, the IPS’s error from what has happened and from the culpability of was discovered in its recruitment audit at the end of those who are responsible. March 2009. The Minister’s reply to my parliamentary question on 31 March 2011 contradicts that, stating Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): I congratulate that the error was discovered in March 2010. my hon. Friend on securing this important debate about Why did it take one or perhaps even two years to a running grievance that affects a number of our inform the staff that there was a question mark against constituents. Does she agree that, regardless of the their employment? According to a reply I received from recruitment method and whatever flaws it had, there is the Minister for the Cabinet Office on 27 April 2011, no real evidence that it would be illegal to rectify the the IPS told the Civil Service Commission on 27 April situation, so the Department and, by extension, Ministers 2010 that it was dealing with the situation, replacing the have a real opportunity to redress a terrible example of permanent contracts with temporary ones. In reality, bad faith on the part of the Department? they were doing no such thing. Who signed off that incorrect information? Who gave the wrong information Mrs Ellman: I thank my right hon. Friend for his to Ministers? When did the Minister discover that the contribution and certainly agree. During the course of information was wrong? my contribution, I will suggest what I think needs to be It also appears that the recruitment audit file was not done to redress the situation. returned to the Liverpool office as it should have been; It is possible that, given the circumstances in which it was sent to the Peterborough office and destroyed. the permanent employment status was awarded, continuing Paul Luffman’s letter asks the civil service commissioners with it was contrary to an interpretation of current if there were any alternatives to terminating the departmental rules, but that is a very different proposition 1197 Liverpool Passport Office30 JUNE 2011 Liverpool Passport Office 1198

[Mrs Ellman] commissioners asking that the matter be looked at was not posted. That has to be one of the great mysteries in from any notion that it was illegal. We are, indeed, all this sorry episode. discussing a unique situation, and it required an imaginative and flexible approach. In any case, advisers advise, Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): Ministers and their staff are responsible for decisions I join colleagues on both sides of the House in and the advice itself is influenced by the question posed. congratulating my hon. Friend on securing this debate Where is the instruction from the Civil Service Commission and on her tenacity in uncovering the information that to dismiss the 14 staff? Does such written instruction she is sharing with the House. My constituent, Christina exist? If so, will the Minister publish both question and O’Brien, who is one of those affected, will be encouraged answer? by what she has discovered. Will my hon. Friend press Correspondence from the then Liverpool regional the Minister to reconsider this matter so that we can see manager in June 2010 refers to advice that the Civil these 14 hard-working staff re-employed at the passport Service Commission could make an exception to permit office? these employees to be made permanent staff. Annexe E of the internal review quotes the human resources Mrs Ellman: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments, business partner as stating: and I will certainly do as he requests. Fourteen people “The Civil Service Commissioners recruitment principles do are unemployed as a direct consequence of a major allow for some exceptions—I believe there could be a small error made by the IPS—an error that it failed to address opportunity to attempt these”. constructively. They are the victims of an unacceptable catalogue of events. Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): I congratulate The internal review document that I have seen contains the hon. Lady on bringing this important issue to the many redactions at critical points. That is why it is not a House. I should like to support the points she is making proper and satisfactory explanation of what went wrong and add that given that this is a unique and extreme and why. Perhaps it is time for an external inquiry if situation with many missing parts, perhaps the Minister matters cannot be put right. To add insult to injury, I could look at it again with fresh eyes. understand that a business case has been submitted for the imminent recruitment of staff at the Liverpool Mrs Ellman: I thank the hon. Lady for her comments passport office on the same or similar grades as those of and agree with everything she says. the dismissed employees. It seems that the jobs are still I want to return to the question of whether there was required, although the 14 people who were doing them another way of dealing with the matter. I have quoted satisfactorily were dismissed. In those circumstances, I the views expressed by the Liverpool office regional must press the Minister. Can the dismissed workers manager in June 2010, and I would now like to refer to have priority consideration for those posts, which I Paul Luffman’s letter—the letter that was never sent understand are about to be part of a recruitment drive? from the Department to the Civil Service Commission. A June 2010 memo from the Liverpool regional In referring to what has happened and what should be manager states: done about it, it says: “Surely we have a duty of care to those who are in this position “I would like to discuss this directly and in detail with the Civil through no fault of their own.” Service Commissioners to see whether IPS is able to use one of No duty of care was shown by IPS. The key questions the exceptions to fair and open recruitment, before resorting to on what has happened and why the matter has not been withdrawal of the contracts. I understand that the civil service commissioners recruitment principles do allow for some exceptions rectified remain unanswered. In those circumstances, to fair and open recruitment, and I believe there could be an and given all the information I have presented today, opportunity to attempt to use these (albeit retrospectively) to and the contributions of my colleagues on both sides of rectify the situation.” the House, I call for the reinstatement of the 14 dismissed workers as a matter of natural justice. Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): I echo the sentiments of the hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther 4.56 pm McVey) regarding the importance of this issue. Given The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): The the additional information that my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) has naturally takes an extremely keen interest in the future provided to the House, and the cross-party unity that of the passport office and its staff, and I recognise the seems to have broken out, does she agree that it is not sentiments that she and hon. Members on both sides of good enough for the Minister simply to bury his head in the House have expressed. the sand, and that the first thing that should happen is for him to reinstate the Liverpool 14? The hon. Lady may be aware, although she did not mention it in her speech, that an employment tribunal hearing date for six of the people involved has been Mrs Ellman: I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution; fixed in Liverpool for 30 September. I hope that she and I certainly agree with him. Indeed, I will make the same the House will appreciate that, in view of that pending request before I conclude my remarks. action, I am unable to comment on matters of legal We see from the written information that we have to interpretation, as they will be for the tribunal to determine. hand that there was the possibility of an alternative way She and I, and others, have had discussions about the of dealing with the IPS’s grave error with regard to legal interpretations, and she gave powerful views on these employees, yet it appears that it was not properly them, but as I said, I cannot comment from the Dispatch pursued, and that for some bizarre and unknown reason Box on matters that are for the impending tribunal to the letter written by the Department to the civil service determine. 1199 Liverpool Passport Office30 JUNE 2011 Liverpool Passport Office 1200

The hon. Lady made a number of points and revealed Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), a number of things. She said that she had got hold of an and in the light of what she said, I think that we should e-mail from, I believe, 2009. She will understand that I resolve this situation before the tribunal. have had no access to that, not least because it was sent under a previous Administration. If she wishes to provide Damian Green: I am conscious of the strong feelings that to me, I will investigate and get fully involved in involved, and as I said, I would be delighted to look at seeing what it tells us. the new information she has revealed to the House this The hon. Lady made a powerful point about the afternoon. question that could be asked to the commissioners. She The hon. Lady made a number of other legal points. will remember that at our recent meeting, she made the As she will be aware, the civil service rules do not permit perfectly reasonable point that she wished to ask questions exceptions to enable permanent appointment under this of the commissioners. I asked her to send me her type of system, although they can enable the extension question on the interpretation of the advice, and said of fixed-term contracts up to a maximum period of two that I would be happy to put it to the First Civil Service years. She mentioned the letter from Paul Luffman, Commissioner. I have not received that question, but which was indeed a draft letter that was never sent. It my offer still stands. If she or any of the hon. Members was not sent to the commissioners because the Home who were at that meeting wish to send me the question Office human resources team were dealing directly with that they would like to ask the Civil Service Commission, the commissioners, not the IPS. I would be more than happy to ask it. I want to put on record what happened. The core of the problem sits with an error made by the Liverpool Mrs Ellman: I have written to the Minister recently passport office in September 2008 in preparation for the on the legality of the situation. Those matters should be peak demand period starting in March 2009. At that addressed to the commissioners. However, he previously time, the Liverpool office ran a recruitment exercise remarked that he would not have had access to information using friends and families as a candidate-attraction given under the previous Administration. I would be method. The IPS issues more than 5 million passports most surprised if the civil service does not make all each year and demand is subject to seasonal peaks. It information available to Ministers, including information manages the seasonal variations through the use of that existed under previous Administrations. This not a flexible employee deployment and through a variety of party matter, and surely the civil service deals with all employee contracts. These contracts include full-time, information regardless of who is in government. part-time and part-year appointments and will occasionally include the appointment of staff on fixed-term or casual Damian Green: Of course this is not a party matter, contracts. but Governments do not have access to the papers of For a number of years, the IPS has, in areas of the previous Governments—that is a long-standing rule. country where there are challenges for the permanent Let us not go into the constitutional niceties, though. It recruitment and retention of lower graded staff, used a is a fact that I have not seen this e-mail that the hon. localised process for the recruitment of fixed-term Lady mentioned. If she wishes to send it to me or hand appointment or casual staff. In this case, short-term it to me at the end of the debate, I will happily take it opportunities were advertised through the existing network away and look at it. She will be aware that the IPS has of IPS staff. The recruitment process is closed, which offered its sincere regrets to the individuals involved, means that the job opportunities are not advertised and I can only add my apologies for the distress that publicly and therefore other potential candidates are resulted from this operational error, which, as she said, not given access to information about the opportunities took place under a previous Administration. The IPS available. However, those candidates given the information has clearly apologised. are selected fairly and are required to demonstrate appropriate levels of competence and behaviours through Steve Rotheram: I accept that this problem was not of an application and interview. They are also subject to the Minister’s making, but it is a problem for him to act normal referencing procedures. on. It is not good enough to hide behind the legalities Posts advertised under the friends and family scheme and legal niceties. It is a unique set of circumstances, should be clearly described as either casual or fixed-term and I do not believe that reinstating these 14 people appointments. By definition, friends and family schemes from the passport office would set an undue precedent. are not fair and open campaigns and, under the civil Even before the tribunal sits, he should use his powers service Order in Council, cannot result in a permanent to right this wrong. appointment to the civil service. Posts advertised and appointed in this way can result only in fixed-term or Damian Green: The hon. Gentleman invites me to casual appointments for a maximum of two years. IPS take a legal decision, but a legal process is in action works to defined policies for deploying and recruiting under the tribunal, and what he calls hiding behind staff. Since 2005, the management and administration legal niceties I would call obeying the law, which it is a of IPS recruitment has been overseen by the IPS central good idea for Ministers to do. resourcing team in human resources at its headquarters in London. The error made by Liverpool passport Mr George Howarth: The Minister will know that, office in 2008 and 2009 was that it employed those while a tribunal is pending, it is open to any employer to 14 staff on a permanent basis. The recruitment had not review the situation, decide that it is not worth proceeding been authorised by IPS’s head of resourcing and the to a tribunal and try to rectify the situation by their own Liverpool office had not described the scheme as falling actions. If he wanted to be bold, he could overrule what under the friends and family provisions. This resulted in his officials are telling him and say, “Look, there is a a list of candidates being subsequently employed on moral case here.” It has been put effectively by my hon. permanent civil service contracts by mistake. 1201 Liverpool Passport Office30 JUNE 2011 Liverpool Passport Office 1202

[Damian Green] when I met hon. Members a few weeks ago. Those discussions remain under way and it is hoped that In March 2010, the IPS central resourcing team agreement about a suitable level of compensation can carried out a routine audit of IPS external recruitment. be reached. Those discussions will continue ahead of The audit identified concern about the friends and the tribunal hearing of 30 September. family recruitment scheme that was adopted at the At my meeting on 8 June with the hon. Member for Liverpool office in 2008 to employ staff in 2009. The Liverpool, Riverside and others, the question was raised concern primarily arose from the fact that staff had of whether the people affected would be guaranteed an been permanently recruited without any open competition interview if any new recruitment was planned at the or advertisement of the vacancies. IPS considered that Liverpool office. IPS is unable, for legal reasons, to offer the civil service Order in Council had been contravened a guaranteed interview. However, it is open for the on the grounds that permanent contracts had been people involved to apply for posts under any future agreed through a process that was not subject to open recruitment campaigns, and their experience of the competition. In view of the contravention, IPS looked work and the skills and competencies would be taken to withdraw the permanent contracts and place the into account as relevant factors in considering any individuals involved on fixed-term contracts. application. The following month, April 2010, IPS notified the A detailed review of what has happened and the civil service commissioners that a total of 14 permanent lessons to be learned was immediately commissioned contracts were being withdrawn and replaced by fixed-term and reported in April 2011. The review has been shared appointments of under two years. However, that action with the staff, the unions, the hon. Lady and other was not taken immediately. Instead, IPS explored whether interested Members. It is of course a matter for the alternative approaches existed that could alleviate the individual staff concerned to take the matter further. As potential impact on the staff employed. That process I said, six of them have submitted employment tribunal was protracted but IPS was unable to find new evidence papers. It may well be that others choose to follow that to support any other approach. It was not until February approach. That is for them to decide, but it is important 2011 that the final decision was taken to cease the for me to acknowledge here that the people involved did permanent contracts. Having reached that decision, IPS a good job for IPS. We should make it clear that they briefed the local senior management team and national were not asked to leave because they were inefficient or trade union representatives from the Public and Commercial were unable to their job. We should also make it clear Services Union. The PCS local branch was briefed on that IPS is engaging with all the people involved to 16 March 2011 to allow employee representatives time determine whether we can reach an equitable settlement to prepare and consider an appropriate response. On that will bring the matter to an earlier conclusion and 21 March 2011, the decision to dismiss the affected staff reduce any further impact on those involved. was carried out. The 14 staff affected, still in employment, had their permanent employment contracts terminated As I said at the outset, this matter arose due to an immediately and four of those staff, who had already unfortunate error in 2008 at the Liverpool passport completed two years’ service, by exception were offered office. The review, which reported earlier this year, a five-week paid notice period. The remaining 10 staff identified that a number of practical improvements were offered and accepted fixed-term contracts of up to have been implemented. A key change is that the recruitment two years, including time already served. Of those 10 fixed- of any staff is subject to central processing, which term contracts, three were scheduled to end on 14 June means that although local interviews and managing of 2011, two on 31 August 2011 and five on 30 September the process take place, it will be a matter for the IPS 2011. central resourcing team formally to agree and approve any new appointments and the recruitment methodology Stephen Twigg: The Minister has just described the to support them. Staff cannot be put on the payroll sequence of events. Does he agree that one of the most without that process having been completed. That is a disturbing features of this saga is that the problem was key processing change and, as part of the next generation identified almost a year before the directly affected of human resources expertise in IPS, it will allow access employees were informed? Would it not, with the benefit to the right level of expertise, ensure that the right of hindsight, have been a great deal fairer for the governance arrangements are in place and ensure that employees concerned to have been advised that there decisions are legally compliant. That has now been in might be an issue as soon as it came to light? Frankly, place for over a year. the situation in terms of finding other jobs, especially in IPS has admitted that it failed to complete the right the public sector, was a lot rosier in April 2010 than it is processes in 2008 and 2009, and it has taken steps to now. recover the situation. I appreciate that 14 people consider, rightly, that they have been disadvantaged in the whole Damian Green: As I have just said, the reason for the process, but I can only emphasise again that the cancellation delay was precisely because the IPS management were of their contracts is not a reflection of their ability or searching desperately for ways to avoid where we have their contribution. Human resource services across come to. It was done with the best of intentions, but I government have to meet exacting standards and while appreciate the power of the hon. Gentleman’s argument. IPS’s actions in this case have clearly had a serious So far, four staff have elected to leave before their detrimental impact on the individuals involved, I believe scheduled end date and four are still in post. Six of the that it was an isolated error and that IPS has taken the staff who have left have found jobs elsewhere. Discussions right steps to avoid the situation being repeated. with individual staff about potential compensation IPS is looking to agree an equitable settlement with payments commenced in the week starting 20 June the people involved, and I would welcome information 2011. That is one of the matters that was discussed and support from the hon. Lady and the other hon. 1203 Liverpool Passport Office30 JUNE 2011 Liverpool Passport Office 1204

Members who are, perfectly rightly, concerned about Question put and agreed to. their constituents and who have engaged on the issue to ensure that we can bring the matter to as speedy a conclusion as possible, not least and most importantly 5.14 pm for the benefit of their constituents. House adjourned.

345WH 30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 346WH

one member, one vote; and the reinvestment of surpluses. Westminster Hall These organisations are intended to make profits, but it is the distribution and allocation of those profits Thursday 30 June 2011 that distinguish them from other forms of proprietary corporate structures. They may also demonstrate a higher commitment to what is measured as “ethical trading”, [MR DAVID AMESS in the Chair] value for money and a certain level of community involvement, although they do not necessarily demonstrate BACKBENCH BUSINESS those things. In general, however, those are the sort of principles and values that underpin the different sorts Co-operatives and Mutuality of corporate models that we loosely term as “co-operative”. It is probably fair to say that for a long period of time Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting co-operatives were somehow stereotyped as a slightly be now adjourned.—(Mr Newmark.) idealistic and not necessarily appropriate business model to survive in the highly competitive capitalist world that 2.30 pm we now have. Crucially, however, if we go back to the Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): roots of both the co-operative and mutual sectors, we Thank you, Mr Amess, and I welcome you to the Chair. realise that these forms of organisations did not arise I think that this is the first time that I have spoken in a out of an idealistic or visionary approach. Essentially, debate that you have presided over. I suspect that this they arose out of groups of people trying to get out of a debate will not be the most difficult debate that you will particular problem and realising that it was only through ever have to adjudicate on. All the same, I am sure that self-help and working together that they could actually you will handle whatever comes up in your normal do so. equitable and even-handed manner. I was particularly struck by two quotes in a pamphlet Before I go into the substance of my remarks, I by Cliff Mills on mutual organisations. The first is: should declare an interest. Like other Members here in “The different types of traditional mutual business (co-operative Westminster Hall today, I am a Labour and Co-operative societies, building societies, friendly societies, mutual insurers) Member of Parliament. Indeed, prior to entering the operated in different ways, but the underlying reason for existence– House, I was employed for 18 years by the co-operative self-help–was the common theme.” movement. I will not detain Members today with a résumé of those 18 years working in the movement, but Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): On that specific there are obviously a number of things from my past point, Members of Parliament will recall the example experience that I want to draw on. of the Tredegar Medical Aid Society, in which my Before I do that, I should thank the Backbench grandfather was very proud to serve and which Aneurin Business Committee for allowing this particular debate. Bevan said was the forerunner idea for him in establishing My hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) the national health service. It was a programme in and I originally asked for it because we are in co-operatives which all the miners in Tredegar contributed a sum and fortnight, which runs from 27 June to 9 July, and then elected the doctors who would offer services to all therefore it seemed appropriate that we used this particular of that mining community in the absence of any sort of window of opportunity to have a debate that would state provision of health care. highlight the contribution that the co-operative movement makes at this time, not only to the total economy but to thinking in community and Government policy circles. Mr Bailey: I am grateful to the hon. Member for It is also an opportunity to test and if necessary challenge Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) for bringing that issue the Government on those areas of their policy that they to my attention. I was not familiar with that society but say are supportive of co-operatives, to get some idea of it is a very good example of the values and qualities that what progress is being made. I have been describing as the foundation of the co-operative movement and of the subsequent development of our I will start off with a somewhat philosophical question, public policy. “What is a co-op?” Perhaps 30 or 40 years ago, there would have been a fairly simple response to that question— In his pamphlet, Cliff Mills goes on to say that “It is a company registered under the Industrial and mutuality Provident Societies Act.” At that time, one’s local Co-op “was the response of people with often desperate needs”— store would immediately come to mind and I suspect as the hon. Gentleman has just demonstrated— that Members of my generation, if not perhaps newer Members, can easily quote their parents’ divvy number. “to find a solution for themselves and others in their community. It was something indelibly etched on our memories. It was based on self interest (the need to provide for me and my family), not philanthropy or charity; but—” Of late, however, the term “co-operative” has come to embrace a number of corporate structures, including and now Cliff Mills comes to the crucial point— the mutual building society and other structures in the “the genius of mutuality was that it captured that self-interest, financial mutual sector, friendly societies and in some and by channelling it through collective self-help, was able to cases employee share-ownership companies. Not all of produce an economically sustainable business.” those have a traditional co-operative structure but the As I say, that is the crucial thing about the co-operative values that underpin them are very similar in each case movement and the variety of business models that it to those of the co-operatives and they also have certain incorporates. As Cliff Mills says, the movement is basic principles in common with co-operatives. They “channelling” self-help, but doing so in a way that enables are, of course, democratic ownership and participation; someone to advance themselves or to deliver the service 347WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 348WH

[Mr Bailey] Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): As I listen to the hon. Gentleman, it strikes me that co-operatives are almost or product that they want to deliver in a way that can inherently part of private enterprise and the free market. compete with the wider and less idealistic commercial Can he help me to understand, therefore, why those world that they have to exist in. things are in opposition? I just do not see it that way. If we look at the formation of the traditional co-operative movement—via the Rochdale Pioneers in 1844, and Mr Bailey: The crucial difference is that the co-operative the different mutual building societies and insurance and mutual movement exists for the benefit of the companies—all the bodies within it were rooted in that participating consumer-members or worker-members. idea of self-help and they all had to survive in a very In the free market, the wider movement is the proprietary difficult external commercial environment. Indeed, the sector, with outside investors investing in, taking profits co-operative movement, which I have more experience out of, and controlling the businesses. That is the crucial of than other movements, was formed in the 1840s structural distinction, and there is also a huge difference because its members needed good-quality foodstuffs, in values and ethos. which they could not get through local private traders, and at the sort of prices that they could afford, which Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): again were often not available. In addition, they needed I am sure that my hon. Friend agrees that for many to be able to use any surpluses that came from trading years there was confusion about what “the third sector” to reinvest in their own communities and their businesses, meant. It was often taken to mean the voluntary sector, both to strengthen those businesses and to provide but the third sector of the economy was always seen as education and other help for the communities that they the co-operative sector, a business sector aiming to be lived in. profitable but having, as he has indicated, a wider set of values than merely profit as the driver behind its engagement Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I and success. congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. The setting up of the co-operative movements was Mr Bailey: One thing that attracted me to work in the perhaps not as utilitarian as he suggests. A key aspect of co-operative movement for so many years was that as a the miners’ welfare halls in my constituency was libraries believer both in the market and the need to succeed in and the ambition of self-advancement, and we might it, and in certain values, I felt that it was a model in have to return to a similar system in the future. which successful businesses could reconcile the two. That is clearly demonstrated, and is part and parcel of Mr Bailey: Yes. My references were specifically to the the reasons for today’s debate. Rochdale Pioneers. One characteristic of co-operative societies was the way in which they reinvested surpluses The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, in community education, and libraries were, of course, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): I hope that part and parcel of that. we are not bracketing co-operatives in the third sector; they work in the private and public sectors as well. They Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) speak to all of our economy, and if we see them in that (Con): Further to the comment made by my hon. way we are much more likely to have an ambitious Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger agenda for them. Williams), it would be a poor history that did not include the role of Robert Owen in this field. The Mr Bailey: The Minister can rest assured that I was Robert Owen Society in Herefordshire does an enormous going to come on to demonstrate the range of businesses amount of work, representing the wide-ranging approach in the co-operative sector. One problem that the mutual to human well-being of which, as the hon. Member for and co-operative sectors had in the ’80s and ’90s was West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) says, the Rochdale that they failed to sufficiently highlight their difference, Pioneers were acutely aware. and a minority of co-operatives did not appear to be effective business models—being more charitable, for Mr Bailey: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for example—with the result that movement as a whole raising that matter. Robert Owen was of course the suffered. pioneer of these ideas, and although he did not succeed in his own lifetime, many of his ideas were incorporated Jonathan Evans: It would be unwise to leave the during the formation of the co-operative movement in subject of the 1980s without saying that there were well the 1840s through the Rochdale Pioneers. run mutuals in the sector, which focused on customers’ The co-operative movement took a knock in the experience and recognised their role. Others, such as post-war era. The traditional retail societies lost an Equitable Life, might historically have been mutuals, enormous amount of their market share to the emerging but did not appear to recognise that and behaved, in a supermarket chains, and their structure found it sense, like private companies. That was also a factor in difficult to adapt. Equally, in the ’80s and early ’90s, some change being necessary. many building societies—the traditional mutual sector—fell prey to the prevailing philosophy of privatisation and Mr Bailey: I agree up to a point. Some mutuals the free market economy, and the conventional wisdom certainly embraced or sustained the principles of mutuality was that co-operative principles were somehow more than others, but in the ’80s and ’90s the great anachronistic and inappropriate to survival in what majority of the public would have been unable to distinguish was then a highly capitalistic and business-orientated between a building society and a bank—indeed, I have world. occasionally heard Ministers and shadow Ministers 349WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 350WH confuse them in the Chamber. That was a reflection of Mail, those issues have not yet been fully explored. We the mutual movement’s failure to sufficiently highlight will certainly seek to do so, and other hon. Members its difference and market it successfully, but much has here might wish to comment on them. changed in that respect in the past few years. There are a range of potential opportunities—some The traditional co-operative retail movement has in might say potential pitfalls—for co-operative development. many ways gone back to its roots, and has successfully The obvious and most public one, of course, is the reinvented itself as a community-based consumer re-mutualisation of Northern Rock. I know that the co-operative. That is reflected in the huge increase in movement feels that if it can be done, it will be an turnover and profitability, with turnover in the sector almost iconic recognition of the renaissance of mutuality increasing by 4.4% in the past year. At a time when the and its relevance, and it intends to probe the Government economy has grown by only 1.3%, that is a very creditable on what they consider the prospects to be. I am disappointed performance. In 2008, the increase was 21%, and by that the previous Government’s commitment to British anyone’s standards that was an incredibly difficult time Waterways has not been upheld. Again, I would welcome in retailing. However, the building society movement hearing the Government thinking on that. The removal emerged, not completely unscathed because it took of the funds available for the formation of community some hits—we unfortunately saw the demise of the pubs is also disappointing. However, I do not mention Dunfermline building society—but relatively so, compared those things in a churlish way. They are matters that we with the proprietary banks, and in no way was it a need to debate. Hon. Members from various parties contributory factor to the banking problems. A lot of might feel that it is possible to pursue them and join credit for that goes to the largest national co-operative—the others intent on promoting the co-operative agenda to Co-operative Group—but credit also goes to a number achieve them. of other co-operative societies. One of my two local societies, the Midcounties, increased its profits last year Jesse Norman: I have considered closely the possibility from just less than £20 million to £26 million, and the of re-mutualising Northern Rock. I could not get over Midlands—I have to be careful not to mention one and the question of how to handle an enormous vendor not the other—increased its profits from £22 million to note —the vendor financing from the Government to £26 million. Such societies have demonstrated that this the employees—to be paid out over 10 or 20 years. That form of organisation can compete and thrive in even has proven an insuperable practical burden, as far as I the most difficult of climates. can see. I welcome other thoughts on the matter. However, I am sure that we all share the hon. Gentleman’s aspiration It is fair to say that the success and potential of that that the mutual ethos should return to the financial model is now recognised by all political parties. To sector. return to the point that the Minister raised, the areas where co-operatives and mutual organisations are thriving Mr Bailey: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that include traditional consumer co-ops; worker co-ops, intervention. Perhaps I should have recognised earlier whether in service delivery, conventional trading or the work that he has done as chairman of the all-party business co-ops; and employee-owned businesses. The group on employee ownership. I held the same position John Lewis Partnership is perhaps the most well known, in a previous incarnation. He has done a good job, and but many others are successful as well. They include I accept that he is intent on resolving some of the problems agricultural, fishing and housing co-ops and football and issues that arise from the Northern Rock situation. supporters’ trusts, and rugby supporters’ trusts are being I will finish, as I know that many people want to raise considered as a model for other sporting clubs. Financial specific interests during this debate. To return to where I co-ops include credit unions, building societies and started, co-operatives and mutuals are a form of self-help mutual insurers. I am sure that I have missed quite a that is relevant in a range of business activities and few, but no doubt people will remind me of them during public services. It has been clearly demonstrated that the course of this debate. That list is a clear demonstration their impact on the economy is increasing and that of the model’s relevance to a range of public services public support for them is improving. Their membership and business activities. is also rising; I think that nearly 13 million people in The Government have embraced the approach. The this country are now members of one form of co-operative pathfinder programme is designed to encourage co-operative or another. This debate will play a small part in raising models in the delivery of public services, and we are awareness, assembling ideas and testing the Government waiting on the “Open Public Services” White Paper, to see how deep their commitment is and how they can which will give us an opportunity to debate where take the agenda forward. Government policy in that area is going. Mr David Amess (in the Chair): We have until 5.30 for Although I generally welcome the Government’s this debate. At 5 o’clock I shall call Mr Gareth Thomas, recognition of co-operatives and mutuals, I will issue who will speak for 10 minutes, the Minister, who will one or two words of warning. First, the essence of speak for 15 minutes, and Mr Adrian Bailey, who will mutuals and co-operatives throughout their history is sum up for five minutes. There are 13 potential speakers. that the individuals forming them must have a desire to Obviously, I want to call everyone, so I hope that hon. make them a success; we cannot just legislate for them, Members will co-operate and share the time. I will call or point to a group of people and say, “You will work in first those colleagues who wrote to the Speaker. a co-operative manner.” The desire is absolutely essential. Similarly, we cannot just look at a failing business and say, “Become a co-operative and you will succeed.” 2.57 pm That will not happen. If the business model is wrong, Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): It is a pleasure just putting it into mutual ownership will not do. Particularly to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Amess. I congratulate in the context of the debate on Post Office and Royal the hon. Members for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) 351WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 352WH

[Damian Hinds] Another critical piece of the jigsaw is the legislative reform order, for which the credit union sector has been and for Islwyn (Chris Evans) on securing this important waiting for some time. The issue has straddled the and timely debate, which coincides with co-operatives change in Government and we hope that it can now fortnight. I will talk about financial mutuals, particularly progress with great speed. It will enable critical changes credit unions. This is a promising time for financial in the sector to facilitate its further development. First, mutuals, in the wake of the banking crisis and against it will soften the common bond requirement—which the backdrop of the big society agenda and the emphasis relates to where someone lives or works, who they work on debt affordability at all levels. for, or which organisation they are a member of—to Financial mutuals remain large, in spite of what has become a member of a credit union. Secondly, it will happened over the past couple of decades, and still enable credit unions to offer services not just to individuals, serve one in three of the population through building as is the case at present, but to organisations, particularly societies, mutual insurers and friendly societies, co-operative charities and voluntary organisations, although it might financial services and credit unions. Credit unions, sadly, also apply to firms. Thirdly, it will enable credit unions come at the bottom of that list, because it is ordered by to offer a fixed rate of interest to savers, if they wish. number of members or customers or by assets under That will make them more attractive and enable them to management. If the list were ordered by number of provide a better range of financial services. individual institutions, credit unions would come at the There are other issues. The sector looks to Government top. There are 48 building societies in the UK, with for a proportionate approach to regulation. They are, more than £300 billion in assets. The number of credit relatively speaking, only little and have not had the unions is about 10 times higher, at 426, but they hold problems that the big banks had during the crisis. They assets of less than £1 billion. want an appropriate level of regulation that matches Nevertheless, despite their relatively small size, credit their size and role. unions in this country have been growing rapidly. Over the past 20 years, from 1990 to 2010, the number of There are also new opportunities, such as the big members has grown from 54,000 to 800,000 and assets society bank, which is a wholesale bank that needs from £17 million to £750 million. However, there is an organisations on the ground to administer its funds. I awfully long way to go. Compared to other countries am sure that community development finance institutions such as the United States, Ireland, Australia and elsewhere, will play a big part in that, as will credit unions, in a the penetration of credit unions among the UK population post-legislative reform order world. Not all credit unions is small indeed. I see that as an opportunity rather than will find that appropriate, but some of them may. Credit a problem. unions could also play a role with the son or daughter Credit unions are traditionally mutuals owned by of the social fund, in its new, evolved form. Local their members, who are savers and shareholders, and authorities will be more responsible for elements of managed or overseen by a board of directors elected on that. They do not have a long history of dealing with the traditional one-member, one-vote basis. Critically, crisis loans and so on, but their local credit unions the interest rate at which they can lend is capped. It is could help them in that regard. about the only part of the financial sector that has such Looking to the future, I think there will be some a cap. Historically, it was 12.7%, but it is now 27%. That blurring of the exact lines between credit unions, CDFIs, still means, however, that anybody borrowing from a social lenders and microfinance institutions. It would credit union knows that they are getting their loan at a be good to see the development of more microfinance reasonable rate. It is very important, because the market institutions of one sort or another in this country, as in which they operate features many other operators well as internationally. Technology may also help us to that charge a good deal more. broaden the boundaries of credit unions and to bring Payday lenders are a part of the financial market that more people in, particularly as savers, which will allow the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) might them to expand their business. That is also applicable to mention later. They represent an area of growth in the microfinance and, eventually, to retail investors in social market and have received a lot of attention, but there impact bonds. are plenty of others. Home credits, for example, are a Two key developments will enable that. They might much larger part of the sub-prime market, have been involve a role for Government, but they might not—they around in this country for much longer and serve many might come from entirely different parts of the social more customers. Other parts of the market may not finance sector. The first is the development of a social appear to have the same sky-high rates of interest, but ISA, which I wrote about some years ago in a Bow they end up being just as bad a deal in terms of their Group pamphlet on credit unions and increasing the overall charging structure. I am thinking in particular capitalisation available for them. Others have written of some rent-to-own operators. about similar things in relation to all sorts of other There are some brilliant opportunities for credit unions projects. It sounds very much like an idea whose time at the moment, and some strong and encouraging news has now come, to enable ordinary retail investors to put from the Government, particularly the £73 million that their money behind socially worthwhile projects and they are making available in the modernisation fund for accept a slightly lower financial return as a result. credit unions. Many areas of modernisation need to be looked at, but I think that what the sector finds most exciting is the development of the back-office platform Steve Baker: My hon. Friend has mentioned returns, and the potential to interface with the Post Office. That but at the moment the banking system seems to be opens huge opportunities to bring credit union services failing both savers and entrepreneurs simultaneously. I to a much larger part of the population and for them to wonder whether such projects might give a better return be much more visible in the marketplace. to savers while benefiting entrepreneurs. 353WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 354WH

Damian Hinds: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for previous Conservative Government. They were walking that fine point. In fact, it is true now, to some extent, back to run a workers’ co-operative. I have never felt that people will get a better return through a dividend more proud of my community and my people than from some credit unions than they would through some when I saw them marching together. Those proud men, high street bank savings accounts. It is also possible to who had been beaten down by the Government, said, say that interest rates for savings accounts in general are “No, there is a better way.” so low that it does not make a whole lot of difference whether one gets a return that is much lower—credit Jonathan Evans: I come from a similar background, union returns have the benefit of not changing after the and I pay credit to the workers at Tower. However, they first six months and of not having complicated introductory were given the opportunity to turn it into a co-operative marketing deals. The general principle that I am trying by Michael Heseltine, who rejected the private sector to outline is that there are many people who, for a bid and accepted their bid. It is therefore slightly churlish proportion of their savings, would be happy to accept, to be dismissive of the previous Conservative Government’s on average, a slightly lower cash return, because they position on that. know that their cash will be doing something worth while, either in their local area or, as is the case with Chris Evans: At the end of the day, I have to get some people, in supporting microfinance and so on. political. As I always say, I am from a mine-working I will mention the second development briefly, because area, and the previous Conservative Government were I have talked for longer than I had anticipated. It relates no friend of the miners. I cannot get away from that; to exchanges to bring people together, so that they can that is what I was born into, that is what I grew up find the opportunities. Many people to whom I speak believing and that is what I still believe. who are relatively well off and who have heard about credit unions, CDFIs or microfinance, say, “I’d love to I am extremely proud of those communities, and I put a bit of money into that.” The problem is that they am proud to be here as a Labour and Co-operative do not know where to find these things. How would Member representing them, but there was a dark side. they? They are not organisations with multi-million I am perhaps being romantic again, but I remember dollar marketing budgets, so an exchange could put being out on the street kicking a football against the people in touch with those opportunities. wall every Monday evening after school. The women In conclusion, the future is bright for credit unions. would shout at us children and move us on. We need the legislative reform order to complement the At about half-past six, however, we would all rush investment and support that the Government are giving through our doors and slam them shut. We would see the sector. Of course, credit unions also need to step up the white XR3i coming down the hill, if anyone remembers to the plate. They need to make sure that they keep their those flashy cars. A woman would pull up and get out. I cost base trimmed, that they have a balanced portfolio can see her now with her bleached blonde hair. My with a good mix of customers, savers and borrowers, mother would say, “Caked with make-up, she is. She that they continue to develop their financial products, stinks of Estée Lauder perfume,” not that I knew what and that they consolidate the sector in the post-LRO world. Estée Lauder perfume smelled like, but that is exactly It has been a pleasure to take part in this important what my mother said. debate. Again, I congratulate the hon. Members for The woman was there with her little book, her little West Bromwich West and for Islwyn on securing it, and bag and her pen, and everybody would run inside. She thank you, Mr Amess, for presiding over it. would hammer on the doors. She was the woman from Provident, and everybody in our street had Provident. If 3.7 pm people did not pay her, she would bang on the door and Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): I pay tribute to say, “I know you’re in their, love. You owe me £400.” If the hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) people had made the mistake of leaving the door ajar, for his work as chairman of the all-party group on she would push it open and go, “Where’s my money?” credit unions, of which I am treasurer. I called for this debate, along with my hon. Friend the Member for When I was first elected, I found a chitty from when West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), because my whole my mother took out a Provident loan in 1987, and the political life is framed by my experiences of where I annual percentage rate was 150%. Years later, I went to grew up in the south Wales valleys. We lived in a work for Lloyds TSB, and I thought there was no way close-knit community. This speech might be sloppy and that Provident could still exist, but it does. sentimental, if you will allow it, Mr Amess, but that is When the basic bank account was introduced, I felt whereIgrewup. the banks often did not want to know about people When I grew up, the Co-op, as we called it colloquially, with a basic account. These people did not have a credit was always there. My mother told me, “I’ve brought score for loans or credit cards, so when they needed you and your sister, Cara, up on Co-op milk,” and we money, they had no access to it. When they were asked went down the Co-op shop for our groceries. If you how they were getting by, they would say they had died, you were laid out in a Co-op funeral home and Provident or Shopacheck and that someone would come they probably buried you as well. As my great-grandmother round to their house to pick the payments up. said before she died at 104, “Don’t worry, everything’s sorted—I’ve been paying the Co-op for years.” That is Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): It is a where I came across the co-operative movement. pleasure to intervene in the hon. Gentleman’s flowing The most iconic moment of my life growing up in the speech. As I have said in many debates, the other valleys was seeing the proud workers walking back to problem with firms such as Provident is that they build Tower colliery in the Cynon valley. They had taken over relationships. They turn up at people’s doors and suggest their business and mines after being written off by the ways in which their customers can spend money. They 355WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 356WH

[Justin Tomlinson] The pupils have formed their own saving scheme, which is run along the lines of the Islwyn Community Credit might say, “Christmas is round the corner. Have you Union. Those children have saved £600. The scheme has sorted your Christmas presents?” They take advantage 56 members. One of the wonderful things about the of the most vulnerable people. scheme is not only that the children are saving, but that they are so enthusiastic that they are going home to Chris Evans: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. their parents to tell them about credit unions. They are I was coming to that. This culture is very much engrained promoting credit unions in that way. This is an excellent in the valleys. My mother, my grandmother and all my project. aunties and uncles had Provident. However, this is not When the Minister sums up and talks about credit just about Provident; it is also about paying off the money unions, I hope he will talk about Wales. Everybody in for the television through the slot in the back. People Wales has access to a credit union, and I really think the put a pound in, and they had 10 hours of television. In coalition Government should have that as an aspiration that way, they could pay off their television. It was more widely. We should also take legislative obstacles always a nightmare, because the pound was guaranteed down. I would ask the Minister to lower the minimum to run out just at the conclusion of “EastEnders”, and age necessary to join a credit union, which is presently we would never know what the cliffhanger was. The 16—the same as the minimum age people need to be to hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that once the television serve as a company director. If we take such steps, we had been paid off, the firms would come round and say, can promote credit unions, good lending and good “The carpet’s looking a bit bald. Do you fancy a new saving. one? What about a new washing machine.” They would I turn now to the mutualisation of the banks. I have then sign people up. been accused of banging on about the banks, but, like This problem of high-cost lending still exists. I cannot many Members, I am disappointed that Northern Rock believe that I am going to admit this in a Westminster will be sold privately. I hope the Government can look Hall debate, but I actually watch Jeremy Kyle; I am at introducing a mutual element, because we need that ashamed to admit it, but I have watched his show. As I in society. In the middle of the banking crisis, there was was waiting for the all-important DNA tests and the lie one bank that did not need bailing out and which had detector, the adverts came up. One was for a company run its business ethically: the Co-operative bank. When called Wonga.com. It was wonderful; Wonga was we look at the banking sector again, I hope the Co-operative revolutionising same-day lending. I thought, “This is bank is one of the examples we look to and learn from. marvellous.”The advert said, “You’re in control.”I thought, “This is brilliant.” Then, however, I looked at the APR, Jesse Norman: It is also true that the Nationwide, a which was 4,125%—pure, utter profiteering. mutual building society, did not require a bail-out. In I did not think any more about the company. Then, fact, it was like the Rock of Gibraltar throughout the however, I got on the tube on Monday morning, and there crisis. was an advert for Wonga.com, saying, “You’re in control.” The APR was more than 4,000%. I cannot get away from Chris Evans: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. this company. I was watching “Match of the Day” and the press conference after the match. There were adverts Alun Michael: There was also the Principality. for Barclaycard, but the Blackpool players also had the Chris Evans: As my right hon. Friend says, there was word “Wonga” right across their chests. Such things also the Principality. That backs up my point that we give the company the legitimacy that it does not deserve. need a mutual element. We need something strong in There is a way of out this. Yes, we can have legislation, the banking industry; we need a safety net. and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for I will conclude now, because I have spoken for a long Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), who has done a lot of time, including about the valleys. Co-operatives have a work on the issue, and I am sure she will speak about it huge role to play in the economy. They are central to later. However, there is a more intrinsic way forward, so society, and I hope that, when the Minister sums up, he let me move on to credit unions. will give a strong commitment to ensuring that they The other day, I went to Islwyn Community Credit have an important part to play in our future economy. Union with my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas)—I will not talk about our earlier 3.18 pm visit. We talked about how the credit union had lent a total of £1 million to the most vulnerable people. To Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) pick up the point made by the hon. Member for East (Con): It is a pleasure to speak in a debate under your Hampshire, the people at the credit union said it was all chairmanship, Mr Amess. very well lending money at competitive rates and allowing I should start by disclosing that I do pro bono work people to save, but that people did not know about with the John Lewis Partnership, which kindly pays into credit unions. Provident, Safeloans and Shopacheck a charitable fund for local independent charities in my will knock at the door, and people can go to Wonga, constituency. I am also the chair of the all-party group Ocean Finance or someone else, but they do not know on employee ownership. about credit unions. People are hearing about them by I massively welcome the debate and its excellent word of mouth and they are hearing about getting more timing, coming as it does in co-operatives fortnight. I protection points. very much congratulate the hon. Members for West The other day, I was proud to visit Trinant school—I Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) and for Islwyn (Chris Evans), must give it a plug. If anybody wants to see a credit as I know other Members will, for calling this important union, they should go there to see the children’s enthusiasm. and timely debate. 357WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 358WH

I want to celebrate two organisations in my constituency. the 19th century the Rochdale Pioneers had in turn One is Money Box, which is Herefordshire’s own credit established the Co-operative building society, which is a union. The second is Widemarsh Workshop, which I major provider of mortgages to this day. am working to help transform into a co-op. It is a social We should look again at the Rochdale Pioneers’ enterprise that creates excellent furniture and works experience. That success was the result of self-help, with disabled local people. entrepreneurship and community energy. It was not the I have been interested and actively involved in co-ops, result of state patronage or official intervention. Those mutual organisations, employee-owned firms and similar men and women were able to adapt the co-operative organisations for many years. In that context, I pay form and the broader idea of shared ownership to a tribute to an extraordinary man called Robert Oakeshott, variety of social needs—a local food shop, local housing whom many Members will know of and who died about and local mortgages. They were motivated as much by 10 days ago, on 21 June. He was a lifelong friend of the high ideals as by economic necessity—a point that has co-operative movement in this country and overseas. already been well made. In their first year of operation He wrote a book, “The Case for Workers’ Co-ops”, they established the Rochdale principles, to which all many years ago, and helped to set up co-ops. His book co-ops broadly adhere today. I think we need something “Jobs and Fairness”was, and still is, the seminal contribution similar today if we are to combat the fragmentation of to the discussion and debate on employee ownership. British society. Robert was an extraordinarily far-sighted man. I wish There is a huge opportunity—I am delighted that it is that he were here to see the debate and the progress that being seized and developed by the Government—to the Government and their supporters across the third initiate a great wave of change across society, whether sector and the private and public sectors have made in that is through Cabinet Office pathfinders, the mutualisation promoting co-ops. I know that he would be thrilled. He of the Post Office or some of the work that is being was a great influence on me, and he brought me into Job done to create new forms of delivery of public services. Ownership Ltd, the predecessor organisation to the Those are all thoroughly important. No less important Employee Ownership Association. are the opportunities to stimulate the growth of co-ops, I am also very pleased to have been able to help so mutuals, employee-owned organisations and the like many of my colleagues and to spread the word on the in the private sector. That is a point that is widely value of co-operative and mutual ideas on the centre misunderstood and I am thrilled that the Government right of the political spectrum through what we have take the same positive and proactive attitude towards called the Conservative Co-operative Movement. I have private sector co-ops as they have to public ones. 37 Conservative colleagues who are members, and the number is growing. So far we have published two Jonathan Evans: I have been looking for an opportunity publications. One is called “Nuts and Bolts: How to to return to the issue of Northern Rock, on which my Start a Food Co-op”, and is a detailed guide. It was hon. Friend intervened earlier, and his work on assessing mentioned earlier that the original form of co-operative the possibility of remutualisation. Is my hon. Friend organisation was the industrial and provident society, disappointed by the fact that United Kingdom Financial but now, and in many respects thanks to the previous Investments appears to have made the recommendation Government, there has been an expansion, and people on sale but not published the outcome of its assessment can use many different routes, including trusts and of the option of remutualisation? I respect what my community interest companies. One thing that this lovely hon. Friend has said about it, but it seems a bit odd that little book does is to set out all the possible different we have not seen the detail, even though UKFI obviously legal and practical approaches to setting up a co-op, must have looked at that subject. and to consider the advantages and disadvantages. Our second publication is a pamphlet that we have recently Jesse Norman: It is a disappointment that UKFI has published, called “Co-ops in the Big Society”, which not published its thinking on that even in outline. The explores all the different ways in which co-ops can add calculations are not enormously complex. There is, of to the delivery of public and private services, and the course, a further political issue, which has to do with the role they can play in society. return of cash to the public Exchequer at a time of Co-ops, with the mutual ethos that they derive from extreme economic crisis, but one still hopes that something and celebrate, their spirit of trust, and their moral of the form of the mutual ethos can be retained in the embedding in our society and communities, are of profound new organisation when it is ultimately sold. importance. One is reminded of the Rochdale Pioneers, whose history brings out a truth that some hon. Members Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): I wonder may find slightly rebarbative, although I think it is whether, like me, the hon. Gentleman is disappointed important to remind ourselves of it: co-ops are by their that the Government have not considered the proposal nature rather conservative—with a small “c”— institutions. for a payback to the taxpayer. Perhaps he will join me The first successful co-op, as has been mentioned, was and other co-operatively-minded MPs to challenge the established by the Rochdale Pioneers in 1844. They Chancellor to re-examine the issue, because of the were 28 poor weavers and tradesmen looking for a benefits that could accrue from the mutualisation of better future as the industrial revolution mechanised Northern Rock. the cloth trade. They relied on slowly accumulated subscriptions of £1 each from their members and initially Jesse Norman: I am not absolutely sure I understood made a modest £13 a week in sales. By 1850, just six the thrust of the hon. Lady’s intervention. It seems to years later, the co-op had 600 members, nearly £2,300 in me that there is an important issue in relation to the capital and sales of £300 a week. In 1861, 11 years on, it publication of the decision that has been made. It is diversified into housing for its members. By the end of quite right that there should be a public justification of 359WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 360WH

[Jesse Norman] Jonathan Evans: I am grateful to my parliamentary neighbour for allowing me to intervene. What has been the decision not to proceed with the mutualisation. One put forward by the Co-operative party is not the only would like further progress to be made on retaining the way in which Northern Rock might still end up with a mutual ethos. I am not sure how much further there is mutual future. It is known that some mutual building to be done on it. societies are, in fact, interested in bidding, even through the Government’s proposed route. However, that will depend Stella Creasy: I am afraid I have a foggy head, but my on the recognition of a capital instrument. Does the mind is clear on this. The Co-operative party has submitted right hon. Gentleman hope, as I do, that we might hear a proposal to the Government about paying back and something along those lines from the Government later the mutualisation of Northern Rock. I ask the hon. this afternoon? Gentleman again whether he will combine with me and other co-operatively-minded MPs to press the Chancellor Alun Michael: I am not wedded to one particular to respond to that document, which he has not yet proposal. The Co-operative party has put forward ideas done. but, as the hon. Gentleman has suggested, there are other options. A genuine will is needed to find a solution Jesse Norman: I am afraid I have not the foggiest clue to overcome the problems that have been raised. what paying back means. To whom will something be It is 10 years since the Co-operative Commission paid back, and out of what, under the proposal? published its report on the co-operative movement, and it has come a long way in that time. If we went back Stella Creasy: Perhaps if the hon. Gentleman agrees further than that—perhaps 20 years—it would feel almost that it is worth considering models of remutualisation as if we were living in a different world. Then the retail for Northern Rock, which would examine the payback co-operative movement was struggling, but now it is to the taxpayer through the remutualisation process, he back in the top ranks; then the building societies were will meet us to look at how to progress that, and not under pressure and were not very popular, but now lose the opportunity that mutualising Northern Rock their value is much more appreciated, as has been would present. mentioned. Jesse Norman: I am of course happy—if this is what The creation of the Co-operative Commission was the hon. Lady is asking—to meet her and other itself a landmark event that demonstrated the co-operative Co-operative MPs to discuss that, so that I can understand movement was important enough to be the subject of a the proposal better. I do not know whether the hon. Government-initiated commission. Virtually everything Lady was present when I intervened earlier, but there is in that report, which contained some 60 specific a clear financial problem to do with the capital structure, recommendations, has been acted upon, mostly by the the taxpayer value and the sustainability of a model movement itself. The introduction of legislation during that has a large vendor note sitting in it from the the past decade has assisted the movement’s development Government—that is a form of loan—and substitutes and success. As has been made clear in the debate, the public ownership of equity with public ownership of a name “co-operative”does not guarantee good governance, loan, which may be no more stable for less return. There but good corporate governance has the capacity for is a genuine economic issue, and that is what we need to business success and stability. Co-operative principles engage with. can also contribute significantly to public service. I hope that we can come together as a House and a Today, I want to celebrate the sheer energy and community of MPs, in a bipartisan way, to promote creativity of the movement, as well as its genuinely co-ops, change our public culture, develop and spread positive political impact. Politics is not just about narrow the co-operative ethos, and encourage the Government party interests; at its best, it is about people working to push ahead with all the work they are doing so together to change the world. Certainly, that is what successfully, so far, in this area. drew our 29 Co-operative MPs into the political front line. It is worth noting that that is the largest group of MPs there has ever been in the history of the Co-operative 3.28 pm party. In the past year or two, the co-operative movement Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): has seized the opportunity to deliver on the concept of Thank you for the opportunity to speak in the debate, the co-operative school. In the past few days, Ben Reid Mr Amess. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member has launched Co-operative Energy, and Supporters Direct for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) on obtaining it. It is nurturing the growth of popular engagement with marks co-operative fortnight and also comes at the sport. On that point, I hope that the recent glitch can be 10th anniversary of the Co-operative Commission report. overcome, so that Supporters Direct can continue and I am delighted that the debate is so popular—something succeed. perhaps illustrated by the hon. Member for Hereford The issue is not just about setting up co-operatives. I and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman). I hope that want to touch on four important initiatives where the he may be willing afterwards to look at the document experience of co-operative governance is being applied that my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow to a much wider aspect of public policy and organisation. (Stella Creasy) referred to. Often, good ideas in the The first initiative relates to how British Waterways is co-operative movement do not reach a wider audience. organised. I chair the all-party group on the waterways If the hon. Gentleman has not yet had the opportunity and I am pleased that the Government have picked up to read those suggestions, I am sure that we can help on the Co-operative party proposal to move our canals him with that, especially as he responded so positively into the third sector under a non-governmental organisation. to the intervention. That idea found its way into the Budget report before 361WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 362WH the election and has been described as seeking to create and worked with me so positively were sent back to a sort of National Trust for the waterways. It has had a their original places of work. I am not sure why, but positive response from the public. The main aspect of some Departments have the capacity for getting rid of co-operative governance that needs to be built into that expertise as soon as it has been developed. I cannot new organisation is public engagement and involvement, blame the Minister for that, but I hope that he will have so that people feel a genuine degree of ownership in the a look at the report and consider how its findings might new organisation and are willing to contribute to it be used by the current Government, because its proposals both financially and in terms of volunteering. The cross boundaries. all-party group will produce a report shortly on the During that period, we saw how co-operative principles hearings we held in respect of governance and finance. can transform an inner-city hospital—Homerton hospital, The second initiative is the idea of a co-operative Hackney was the example we considered—and how council. That is not just about having a council that co-operative initiatives, from credit unions to play groups encourages people to consider setting up co-operatives and social groups, were transforming the lives of individuals and includes the co-operative model in options for and communities across the country. The co-operative change; it is about transforming the relationship between movement and the application of co-operative principles leadership and management of the council, those who in a whole range of areas—not necessarily just to things work for the council and the public that the council that would be described as an industrial and provident exists to serve. The idea is powerful and will enable us to society—are probably one of Britain’s best kept secrets. refresh how we do business locally. I am glad that we are having this debate to highlight, The third area of initiative is internet governance. however briefly, all the areas on which the movement is The internet offers enormous potential for co-operative having an impact. solutions. I chair the UK Internet Governance Forum, Co-operation and mutuality is alive and well in the which is leading the way in the UK in bringing together sphere of political action, and the latest initiatives to Government, business, Parliament and civil society to create co-op councils will open up a new era of delivery look for better ways of encouraging creative and positive to our communities locally. Change of power through human activity nationally and internationally. It was an election should not just change the name plates at part of the 2010 Co-operative party manifesto, but we the Executive table; the relationships between the people are co-operating across party. Ministers have been very who work for the council and the public that they serve supportive of delivering that approach, and it will be should also be changed. I hope very much that all the taken a stage further when the UN’s internet governance examples given during the debate will lead to a greater forum meets in Kenya in September. flourishing of the co-operative principle and will perhaps The fourth area of initiative is the partnership approach pick up the impetus that was given by the Co-operative to reducing local crime and disorder. That idea has Commission 10 years ago to refresh our activities into flourished since I had the privilege of taking the Crime the next decade. and Disorder Act 1998 through the House and has proved a success in reducing crime. However, the potential 3.38 pm of such an approach has not yet been realised because the governance of local partnerships is not as well Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): It is developed as it should be. In Cardiff, such an initiative a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Amess. reduced violent crime by about 25% more than in I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this comparable cities. That shows the value of taking that important debate a few days into co-operatives fortnight. approach to enable local partnerships to succeed. I congratulate the hon. Members for West Bromwich Methodology and governance provides the potential West (Mr Bailey) and for Islwyn (Chris Evans) on for greater success in that respect. Those are examples persuading the Backbench Business Committee to enable of areas where the co-operative model can contribute to them to initiate this debate. I very much enjoyed the the public and private sector. speech of the hon. Member for Islwyn. I loved the In 2007, I did a piece of work for the Cabinet Office delicious irony of a boy from a mining community in and the Treasury, which was commissioned by the then the valleys who went to work for a bank that was bailed Minister for the third sector, who is now the Leader of out by taxpayers crossing the picket line today to talk the Opposition. That work was part of the preparation about co-operatives. I congratulate him enormously on for the 2007 spending review and involved taking a that. wider, general look at the contribution that could be I am sure that many Opposition Members are surprised made by the third sector to social and economic to see hon. Members on this side of the House taking a regeneration. My report concentrated specifically on real and genuine interest in a debate on the co-operative the evidence of what mutuals and co-operatives could movement. I hope that I can not only reassure hon. contribute to that. It is fair to say that the Treasury Members that we support co-ops and mutuals, but officials in particular were genuinely surprised and impressed reclaim a bit of the movement back for the Conservative by what they saw across the country when we were party. I was amused to read, in the Library debate pack, undertaking that work. I personally found it an invigorating an opening line from Guardian journalist Tim Smedley, experience. which read: The report showed the contribution that is already “Have you heard the one about the Conservative-led government being made in areas such as health, housing, child care, encouraging public servants to form employee-owned mutuals?” financial services and community cohesion. That potential He went on to write that, “this is no joke.” I know that has not yet been realised partly because I discovered we are supposed to bristle at the Labour party’s missive immediately after we published the report that the to the media to call the coalition a Conservative-led people on the team who had gathered all the information Government. However, as a Conservative Back Bencher 363WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 364WH

[Tracey Crouch] party through a separate selection process. It is not just a question of the name; it has a very deep reality in our and member of the Conservative Co-operative Movement, history. if a left-wing paper wishes to highlight, even in a mocking tone, our support for co-operatives and mutuals, Tracey Crouch: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for frankly, that is fine with me. his intervention. The issue is under consideration by members of the Conservative Co-operative Movement. Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): Can I think that we have just ruined any kind of cross-party the hon. Lady tell us how many members of the consensus that we were having on the co-operative Conservative Co-operative Movement there are? The movement. The Conservative party should be congratulated 37 alluded to by the hon. Member for Hereford and on the fact that it has now established this movement in South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) does not suggest its own party, and I hope that Opposition Members will that it is much of a movement. consider that to be an important step forward. As I was saying before I was sidetracked, there are Tracey Crouch: As the hon. Gentleman mentioned, many reasons why co-operatives and mutuals are good my hon. Friend said that there are 37 members, but the for growth and for society. Hopefully, I shall cover those movement has only just been launched. We are a small reasons in what was supposed to be a very short but perfectly-formed group. [Interruption.] I may also contribution to the debate. Having spent too much time add, thanks to help from my hon. Friends from a talking about it recently, one area of co-operative success sedentary position, that there are 37 members within that I will not focus on this afternoon is football. There Parliament. have been many debates in the Chamber and on the Floor of the House about football club ownership, so I Jesse Norman: At the risk of intruding, would my shall surprise colleagues by avoiding my main non-political hon. Friend, or perhaps the hon. Member for Harrow passion and concentrate on other issues today. West (Mr Thomas), like to comment on the difference The co-operative movement has a far greater pedigree between the number of members of the Conservative than perhaps people give it credit for. The first co-operative Co-operative Movement and the number of Labour was established in 1844, and there has been a steady members of the co-operative movement within this increase in numbers across the country, with some House? gaining a foothold and becoming cornerstones of local communities. Examples that have already been referenced Tracey Crouch: I am sure that the hon. Member for this afternoon are, of course, the Co-operative Group Harrow West will deal with those questions when he and the John Lewis Partnership. Together, they have an sums up at the end of the debate. I am proud to be a impressive combined turnover of approximately £18 billion. member of the Conservative Co-operative Movement It is often the small co-ops, which do not have the big in Parliament, which has only just been established. brand names, that make the biggest and best impact in our communities. As a relative newcomer to the Mr Davey: Without wanting to intrude on this debate, Conservative Co-operative Movement—run impressively, I will not suggest how many Liberal Democrat hon. if I may say so, by my hon. Friend the Member for Members are members of a similar co-operative movement. Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman)—I I will simply say that there are 12.8 million members of have read with interest about the potential for co-operatives. co-operatives in this country, and they are the ones on Undoubtedly, they have intrinsic social benefits, promoting whom we should focus. ethical, responsible, democratic and equitable ways of doing business. Inclusion, another positive contribution Tracey Crouch: I agree with the Minister. If I may they make to society, ought not to be underestimated, continue with my speech, rather than getting into how not least at a time when we are asking individuals to do many members we have in each political party— more for their communities. Co-operatives command cross-party support and that is to be welcomed. However, Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): I believe that it is under this Government, with their I just wanted to clarify, for Hansard and for the debate, desire for people to take up responsibility and seize the that there is a distinction between those Labour MPs initiative, that they can really flourish as social enterprises who are Labour and Co-operative Members of Parliament and local providers. and those who are members of the Co-operative party, We often hear co-operatives mentioned favourably in but may not be Labour and Co-operative MPs. reference to their social, ethical and communal benefits, but many people who are not hugely involved in the Tracey Crouch: I am grateful for that clarification. movement will be surprised to learn of the enormous The hon. Lady may be interested to learn that members contribution that they make to the economy. In the of the Conservative Co-operative Movement have been south-east region, where my constituency is located, considering whether, perhaps at the next general election, 328 co-ops now employ more than 13,000 people and we may do something radical and stand as Conservative, generate more than £3 billion per annum. They take Unionist and Co-operative candidates. That is under many guises, and I have read with interest about the active consideration. coverage that they offer across a range of sectors, including housing, finance, agriculture and retail. Alun Michael: It is important to emphasise that the The Minister knows that I am heavily engaged in the Co-operative party is a separate party—it is a registered debate about high-cost credit lending and debt management political party. A Co-operative and Labour MP has to companies. I am therefore particularly interested in be selected by the Labour party, and by the Co-operative what co-operatives can offer the financial sector. My 365WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 366WH hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian that we see that commitment become reality soon. We Hinds) and others who have already spoken have made must then, with some cross-party zeal, start championing the point that credit unions demonstrate particularly and promoting the co-operative movement. valuable and welcome traits. They foster a self-help and I feel particularly strongly about the issue because, in community ethos, while encouraging financial inclusion, the run-up to the general election, a major high street affordable borrowing and prudent saving on a not-for-profit bank decided that its small branch in my constituency, basis. with its over-the-counter service and ATM, was surplus By law, each credit union must be founded with a to its global requirements. HSBC decided that Aylesford common bond, which all applicants must satisfy before village did not fit into its strap line of “The world’s local they can become members. In the case of the Medway bank.” Despite serving an elderly and local business Credit Union, which has a catchment area covering population, the branch was closed without any concern part of my constituency, the common bond is geographical. about the impact on the local community. The village is It restricts membership to those living and working now bereft of its post office and its bank. Given the within the union’s prescribed boundaries. It is seeing a thousands of names we had on a petition from Aylesford steady increase on its 400 members. I appreciate that and the surrounding villages, I wish I had seen the bonds are being considered as part of the legislative example of villagers coming together to provide their review, but the point is that each member is part of a own local counter services and forming a co-op. We community that has grouped together to offer a service could and should have done that, and the village would that is independent of the state and is self-sustaining. have been better off for it. On top of the ability to promote saving and equity in I promised a short contribution, but now I have an area such as Medway, where there is a significant wittered on about co-op opportunities that passed by. personal debt problem, credit unions offer a very different This debate, however, has allowed me to emphasise that and innovative approach to debt reconciliation, unique the co-operative and mutual movement has cross-party to their mutual nature. The advantage a credit union support. Co-ops bring huge benefits to society and the possesses over a high street bank or a loan company, for economy, and they can demonstrate entrepreneurial example, is its personal and flexible nature. Of course, brilliance and deliver rewards to all those involved. someone can have a rapport with their bank manager, There are legal obstacles, which the Government are but he is ultimately concerned with generating profit. looking at, but it is hard not to want to get involved in As part of a credit union, however, each loan that is this debate and to encourage the establishment of more taken out is given careful consideration by peers and co-operatives, to help to deliver what society and the fellow members who have one’s best interests at heart, country needs. and any loan taken out incurs a low rate of interest. Jesse Norman: On a point of order, Mr Amess, I want Justin Tomlinson: The point about the loan being in to put on record my sense of the great discourtesy done the best interest is absolutely essential to this. We were to this Chamber and to the House by the hon. Member talking earlier about the Provident doorstep lending, for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), who came in, did not with their nudge, nudge sales techniques. What a stark listen to the opening speeches, asked a series of questions contrast the credit unions are, and what a real difference and then left. That ought to be in the record. they make to the most vulnerable people. Mr David Amess (in the Chair): All I say about hon. Tracey Crouch: I agree completely. It is for that Members staying for the debate is that, when I made my reason that it is right that credit unions receive so much announcement about the timing of things, there were support from across the House and from Government. 13 possible speakers. I hope I did not scare people off, They are great advocates of financial inclusion and can because we seem to have lost a number of them. I am offer an alternative to high-cost credit that blights many, not referring to our current proceedings but, as far as and submerges them further into debt. I look forward the specific point made by the hon. Gentleman is concerned, to visiting the Medway Credit Union in the autumn, Mr Speaker has said that it is certainly discourteous for and to helping to raise its profile. a Member to arrive, make an intervention and not That leads me on to an observation that many have return. I cast no aspersions on what is happening at the no doubt already made. Small, particularly localised moment. co-ops such as the Medway Credit Union, rely heavily on volunteers. Unlike private ventures, which have a Alun Michael: Further to that point of order, Mr Amess, large amount of start-up capital, they can call on little as we are having this discussion about courtesy, has not in the way of reserves. If we are to encourage the Mr Speaker also ruled more than once in the past that, co-operative contribution to the economy, the Government if a Member intends to make a critical comment about must focus their energies and funding on providing another Member, he should first have spoken to that start-up capital. It is encouraging therefore that the Member, to apprise of his intention and to see whether Government have recognised that and established a there might have been good reason for any action that fund to help mutuals to meet such costs. I would also had provoked him to intervene? like local enterprise partnerships, which are meant to focus on providing localised services and on developing Mr David Amess (in the Chair): Order. I am advised a devolved enterprise strategy, to explore how co-ops that that is generally the case. Rather than prolong the can become involved, attract investment and improve matter, and as the right hon. Member for Cardiff South membership. The Government have previously committed and Penarth (Alun Michael) and the hon. Member for to reducing the regulatory and administrative burdens Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) have so that it is easier to start and run a co-operative. I hope made their observations, we will see what happens. 367WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 368WH

3.54 pm Community ownership is a wholly different approach to purely commercial operations and brings additional Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): benefits such as increased community engagement and I am pleased to have the chance to speak in this important education on low-carbon issues, but it does not often debate. I congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for generate the same level of revenue to pay the interest on West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) and for Islwyn (Chris investors’ capital during the early years of development. Evans) on securing it. In that situation, the enterprise investment scheme offers I declare an interest: along with many other Labour a breathing space for community initiatives not to pay and Co-operative Members of Parliament, I am proud interest while the enterprise is established, allowing to be part of a movement motivated not purely by the them to grow. It is regrettable that moves to boost pursuit of profit but by values of openness, social equity investment in small enterprises will damage the responsibility and solidarity. As well as being founded smallest of those enterprises and many co-operatives on strong principles, in practice co-ops and mutuals and mutuals. can be more efficient and are a positive force in local As well as removing support for existing co-operatives, communities. The co-operative model also makes the Government have rejected Labour plans to encourage sense economically. As right hon. and hon. Members in the establishment of new energy co-operatives. We recently all parts of this Chamber have alluded to, last year the concluded the Energy Bill’s Committee stage, and many co-operative economy throughout the UK stood at hon. Members are familiar with its provisions. The 12.9 million members, who were part of almost main Government proposal in the Bill is to establish a 5,000 co-operative businesses, with a turnover of pay-as-you-save energy-efficiency scheme called the green £33.5 billion, contributing 237,800 jobs to the national deal, a programme first piloted under the previous economy. In the north-west region, where my constituency Labour Government. Under the green deal, homeowners is located, 416 co-operatives turn over £2.2 billion and tenants will be able to borrow money to make and employ 20,350 people. As a proud member of the energy-efficient improvements to their homes, such as Lodge Lane credit union, I see the many benefits of insulation, with no up-front costs. The improvements co-operatives in my own constituency. will be paid for in instalments from the money saved on As well as highlighting the successes of co-ops nationally, utility bills. I want to focus my remarks this afternoon on how the The new marketplace that the scheme will create co-operative model is thriving in the energy market. Up offers huge potential for co-operatives and mutuals to and down the country, communities have come together become green deal providers, installing energy efficiency to find new ways of generating renewable energy. measures. Labour’s vision of the green deal marketplace Co-operatives have pioneered renewable energy in the is one in which small businesses, co-operatives, mutuals UK, whether large ones such as the Co-operative Group and social enterprises are able to compete equally alongside powering its stores with renewable energy or innovative the big energy companies and supermarkets that want businesses such as Powys-based Dulas developing green to take part in the scheme. For that reason, on behalf of technologies. the Opposition, I tabled amendments to the Energy Bill The co-operative model is providing communities in Committee which would have guaranteed fair access with the means to invest in, own and benefit from new to the marketplace for co-ops and reduced the wind farm developments. Nine community co-operatives administration costs that they would have had to pay in currently own wind farms in the UK, providing a great order to take part in the scheme. I hope there is broad model of community power. Baywind, for example, is a agreement on both sides of the House that co-ops and wind co-operative in Cumbria which has successfully mutuals that want to benefit our communities and carried out two share offers since it was founded in 1996 focus resources on vulnerable people and households in and has more than 1,300 members. Westmill wind farm fuel poverty should not be excluded from the green deal in Oxfordshire is entirely owned by about 2,500 members, marketplace. largely drawn from the local community, who between Reduced admin fees and fair access to the market them have invested £4.4 million. Nationally, wind farm would not only lessen the financial start-up costs for co-operatives alone have 6,700 members and turn over those organisations, but would act as an indicator to £2.5 million. them that they have an important part to play in the Until recently, energy co-ops have benefited from a green deal. Surely the idea of helping co-operatives and supportive central Government. Recent Government mutual societies to flourish, instead of the market being decisions, however, have resulted in support for community- dominated by a few big companies, is very much in the based energy co-operatives being withdrawn, risking spirit of the big society? Unfortunately, the Government their success. The Government’s decision to cut the did not think so, and voted down those amendments. feed-in tariff subsidy for projects that generate more That did not stop the Minister of State, Department of than 50 kW will mean that many community co-op Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for solar projects on hospitals, schools and community Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), using warm words buildings are now no longer commercially viable. Alongside about co-operatives, but what good are words when that, it was announced in the 2011 Budget that renewable they are not followed up by actions? energy schemes eligible for the feed-in tariff would no I thought that the Government recognised the value longer qualify for tax relief under the enterprise investment of employee-led models. During a speech in November scheme, harming at least 20 communities planning a 2010 the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster community share launch soon—the business model is General, the right hon. Member for Horsham (Mr Maude) entirely based on securing the feed-in tariff and the said: enterprise investment scheme. Small schemes with less “The evidence increasingly shows that they reduce absenteeism, than £0.5 million of capital costs will struggle to be improve performance management, encourage innovation, and viable. increase productivity.” 369WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 370WH

Will the Minister take the concerns that I have raised I was testing some people on Wonga’s APR yesterday, back to his ministerial colleagues in the responsible and not one person was able to calculate the interest Departments, and press them to look again at their rate, including a Treasury manager. decisions, so that instead of punishing co-ops and mutuals, we build on them and drive the energy co-operative Chris Evans: I agree with some of the hon. Gentleman’s sector forward? sentiments about APR. I have always said that people The threat of climate change is the greatest threat to should be quoted a flat rate of interest, which is simpler our planet, and it is only through co-operation that and easier to understand than APR. As the hon. Member we will be able to take urgent global action to fight it. for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) said, I Renewable energy co-operation to tackle climate change used to work for Lloyds TSB, and I have regretted it and to reduce household fuel bills at a time when they every day since, but I have always said that a flat rate is are increasing is just one example of how co-operatives simple. can benefit our society. This debate has highlighted how much co-operatives can benefit our society, and it Justin Tomlinson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his is timely at the start of co-operatives fortnight. From intervention. In an ideal world, we would have cash-for-cash banking and finance to renewable energy and environmental comparisons if people wanted to borrow money. I echo protection, co-operatives are making a difference. I the comments about doorstep lending. The Minister thank my hon. Friends for securing this debate, and feels strongly about it, and it really needs to be dealt I thank you, Mr Amess, for your stewardship. with. The sales techniques are nothing short of disgraceful.

4.1 pm Damian Hinds: Does my hon. Friend agree that despite Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): I intend to the apparent attraction of straightforward interest charges consolidate some potential interventions in a short and being disclosed, they lack something because they do efficient speech, partly in recognition of you, Mr Amess, not cover any of the behavioural charges. There is no because your role as chairman of the all-party group on perfect way, but it would perhaps be slightly closer to small shops reminded me of a few extra elements that perfect to have disclosure of both the set-up costs for have not been touched on. The first is the impact on the loan, and the interest rate on top. That twin-rate the high street. The Government have commissioned approach is much more reflective of lenders’ cost structures. Mary Portas to review the high street, and having avidly watched her TV programmes for some years, I know Justin Tomlinson: I absolutely agree. The key message that her main mantra is about customer service. All too is that the Government are reviewing the matter, and often in this great nation of shopkeepers, customer they should do so with time and patience to make sure service is appalling at best. Through the principle of that it is delivered in the right way that people can co-operatives, employees are directly involved and have understand. We do not want to fall into the trap of a direct incentive to offer far better customer service, obvious headlines, because that would just make the and to help to rescue our high streets. That is an element situation a lot worse. that we should consider. On public services, I spent 10 enjoyable years in local Some hon. Members have talked about credit unions, government, four of them as a cabinet member making and I intervened several times. It is essential to the key decisions. I fully support the principle of allowing interests of the most vulnerable consumers that they staff with front-line experience, and who are fuelled by have access to loans on which their interests are put at their direct passion, to make a difference and have a the heart of decisions, in stark contrast with the doorstep greater say in how services are delivered, instead of lenders who prey on people, and encourage them to get remote politicians—this applies to all of us—without into a long-term cycle of expensive debt, and end up that experience. buying dodgy-smelling perfume. There is so much I pay credit to the Co-operative shops—my local consolidation of banking services on the high street shop is a Co-op and its cheesy tasty bread is very that there is less competition, and that is another good—for the way they conduct the elections to their opportunity for the credit unions to step in. Access to board. Every member—I am a proud member of my services is key, because vulnerable people often do not local Co-op—is sent a clear booklet, and as we consider know how to access more affordable credit, and the help creating elected police commissioners and having other and advice that come with it. elections, that may be a model to consider, especially if I want to issue a slight warning to the hon. Member we manage to ban political parties from being involved for Islwyn (Chris Evans) for picking on Wonga. It does in such things. not lend to vulnerable consumers, who must go through rigorous checks. If the headline interest rate is 4,400% APR, and if someone is two days from their pay day 4.7 pm and wants to borrow £100 to tide themselves over, they Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ will be charged a product fee of £5.50 plus 4,400% APR Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, of £1 a day, so they will pay £7.50 for the privilege. If Mr Amess. As many other hon. Members have done, I they just go overdrawn at their bank, Lloyds TSB, for declare an interest as a Labour and Co-operative Member example, would charge a flat fee of £10 a day plus £2.50 of Parliament. I also join other hon. Members in for the debit card charge, which makes a total of £22.50 congratulating my hon. Friends the Members for West so they will be £15 worse off. We must be careful not to Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) and for Islwyn (Chris fall into the traps of some headlines. Evans) on securing this debate as we come to the start The way to get round the problem is to support my of co-operatives fortnight. I want to highlight the financial education campaign so that more people contribution of the mutual sector in many areas of life, understand the deals that are put before them. However, and then to comment specifically about one sector, 371WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 372WH

[Tom Greatrex] a club because they have lost interest, or are unable to continue because it is more challenging than they thought leaving the Minister with plenty of opportunity to it would be, they leave clubs in the lurch. One thing that respond to the issues that hon. Members have raised can be said about football clubs is that players, managers this afternoon. and chairmen may come and go, but the fans remain As other hon. Members have said, one of the challenges constant. They have a huge amount of concern for and facing the mutual sector has been to explain what a emotional attachment to their clubs, and they will step co-operative is, how it works, and why it is relevant in in. In the past, fans have stepped in very successfully—we the present and the future. My family’s experience of could all give examples of trusts that have become co-operatives is slightly different from that of my hon. involved in running a club, and done it well. The hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn. My grandparents were Gentleman’s point is right. I desire to see supporters’ dairy farmers in east Kent, and were part of a co-operative trusts not only getting involved in times of crisis when that fed into a retail co-operative, so there is a long and no one else steps in, but also getting involved in varied history of what co-operatives are. There is huge representation and the running of the club, so that there potential for their future, and I am glad that in recent is a direct link to the supporters and communities. years we have started to go beyond the common That is why I am concerned about the situation with misapprehensions and the occasional suspicion or Supporters Direct. As I know from personal experience, dubiousness on this side of what co-operatives are Supporters Direct has provided huge support in getting about and how they fit into the wider Labour movement. trusts established, and it has campaigned on some wider It is gratifying that we have got over that in recent years, issues concerning the ownership of football clubs and and I hope that we are now starting to see not just the other sporting clubs. We need such a body to help value of co-operatives, but the potential for future co-ordinate that work. I raised that point with the co-operatives and how we can develop them in future. Minister for Sport and the Olympics during questions I want to speak about one form of mutual ownership to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport a that is particularly close to my heart. Unlike the hon. couple of weeks ago. He recognised the issue and said Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), I that talks would be taking place on Friday. I am not will not apologise for talking about football supporters’ sure which Friday he was referring to, but there have trusts yet again, because it would be remiss of me in this been a couple of Fridays since then and the issue is as debate not to refer to them in a little more detail than yet unresolved. If Supporters Direct, or an organisation others have been able to do. My personal involvement of that type, does not take that role, there is the danger in the co-operative movement and Co-operative party that supporters’ trusts that need to be developed will comes from having helped to establish the Fulham not get the opportunity to learn from others and proceed Supporters’ Trust just over 10 years ago. If anyone is at with development. Instead, the funding will be fragmented a loose end this evening, Fulham start their European and, as hon. Members will be aware, it is a relatively adventure at Craven Cottage, and hon. Members would small amount of money given the wealth that swirls be more than welcome to join me in attending the game around football, particularly at top level. to watch Fulham play the team that finished third in the As I understand, part of the Premier League’s reasoning Faroe Islands Premier League. concerns comments made by the former chief executive It seems an apposite time to raise the issue of supporters’ of Supporters Direct. I know that the individual concerned trusts, because of the problems surrounding Supporters regrets those comments; he has apologised fully and Direct to which I want to refer this afternoon. Supporters since resigned. I hope therefore, that that issue is not Direct is a matter of concern to hon. Members from still an impediment to the continuation of Supporters all parties—early-day motion 1909 on the funding of Direct. I realise that that is not the Minister’s direct Supporters Direct has been signed by 66 hon. Members responsibility, but I hope that he will mention the issue from all parties except the Scottish National party, to his colleagues in the Government. It is an important although that is not necessarily a good way to measure aspect of co-operatives and mutuals and there is a great levels of concern. degree of concern about it. Many hon. Members will be aware of and familiar I also wish to raise a couple of specific issues about with the work of supporters’ trusts in their constituencies, credit unions. The hon. Member for East Hampshire and there will be clubs—rugby league clubs as well as (Damian Hinds) and my hon. Friend the Member for football clubs—in which they have either a constituency Islwyn spoke eloquently and passionately about the role interest or a direct supporter interest. of credit unions. I am fortunate in having a number of credit unions in my constituency, and everybody is Justin Tomlinson: On that point, I am a proud member covered by the bond for credit unions. Blantyre and of Swindon Town supporters club, which I joined when South Lanarkshire credit union means that the whole of it first formed. One challenge it faces is that it often South Lanarkshire is covered, and there are a number meets in moments of crisis—Swindon Town lurched of smaller credit unions in Rutherglen, Cambuslang from one crisis to another until the new owners transformed and Hamilton. it. We need to encourage supporters’ trusts to set up and On Friday I met representatives from the WHEB credit work in the long term, especially when the sun is shining union—Whitehill, Hillhouse, Earnock and Burnbank— on a football club. which operates in a small part of Hamilton in my constituency. I raised a couple of issues with them that Tom Greatrex: The hon. Gentleman anticipates the refer back to the comments made by the hon. Member point I was about to make. My experience—and that of for East Hampshire, particularly in relation to the potential many others involved in supporters’ trusts—has been for credit unions in the future. The ambitious and that at a moment of crisis, when owners walk away from appropriate programme for future development will do 373WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 374WH a huge amount of good to the credit union movement Finally, I want to reflect on the importance of mutuals and to consumers, but we must be aware of the concerns and co-ops. This has so far been a very good debate, felt by smaller credit unions that they do not get lost in covering a wide range of issues. That highlights the a drive that could up with larger credit unions effectively wide range of co-operatives and mutual organisations taking them over. I say that because WHEB credit that exist. They are not just an interesting historical union, for example, is tied to a specific, but quite small relic, but a huge opportunity for the present and for the geographical area and has a relatively small number of future. In relation to Supporters Direct, I am pleased members in comparison with other credit unions. WHEB that the coalition agreement is explicit about the positive is trusted in that area because it is seen by members of role that can be played by supporters having ownership the community as a sound source of credit and a of football clubs on a mutual basis. However, some reliable organisation. I am slightly concerned that in the contributions to this debate have reflected the fact that drive to develop credit unions, some of the smaller and there are a lot of warm words on this issue and we now, community credit unions could be left behind. I do not across the parties, want to see those transformed into want that to happen. action on the specific points that we have discussed. I I have a further point, which is relevant to the Minister’s hope that the Minister will be able to reflect on and responsibilities. WHEB told me last week that one problem respond to those points and give Opposition Members that happens more and more frequently is where people some comfort that the rediscovery of mutualism by a join the credit union and save the minimum amount wider range of people means that there is a real, lasting needed to have access to a small loan. They then take and meaningful commitment to helping to develop out that small loan and almost immediately apply to mutual solutions to some of the issues that the country become bankrupt, which they use as an opportunity to faces. get over the repayments. I appreciate that insolvency is a devolved issue, and that accountancy and bankruptcy 4.21 pm are devolved responsibilities in Scotland, but part of the Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): I problem I have described is because of radio adverts, welcome the opportunity to have this debate and I for example, that say to people “We can help you get rid congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for West of your debts by you becoming bankrupt”, without Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) and for Islwyn (Chris Evans) explaining some of the consequences. We hear about on convincing the Backbench Business Committee to such things more and more frequently, and we heard allow it to be held. I also echo the welcome for the during earlier contributions about some of the other opportunity to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Amess. advertising that goes on. There are examples of people using credit unions to save enough to be able to borrow I am a member of the Co-op party; indeed, I am money, and they then default on their debts. privileged to chair the Co-op party, and to be a Labour and Co-op MP. I therefore particularly welcome the That issue was raised with me because, as I have opportunity to speak in this debate for the official already said, WHEB is a small, community credit union—I Opposition. As other hon. Members have said, it is am sure there are many others—and it is not well placed taking place during co-operatives fortnight, which runs to absorb the number of insolvencies that are taking until 9 July.It is an opportunity to celebrate the considerable place. I was told that there were seven such cases over contribution that co-ops and mutuals make to British the past month. That might not sound like a lot, but for economic and social and cultural life. However, it would a small credit union in that area it is starting to have a be wrong of me, speaking for the official Opposition, significant impact and causing concern. Perhaps when not to go further and undertake some scrutiny of the the Minister responds, he will address the issue of Government’s record to date on providing assistance, or advertising for such services, which, given the way the not, to the co-op sector. adverts seem to suggest to people that all their problems could be over, borders on irresponsible. The effect on First, let me acknowledge the contributions made by smaller credit unions is an unintended consequence of hon. Members who have taken part in the debate. My that. hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West, in setting out the scope of the debate, rightly alluded to Damian Hinds: I am conscious that the debate is the stereotypical view of the co-op movement that there about co-operatives and mutuals, so I do not want to certainly was throughout the 1990s and the early part of draw the hon. Gentleman too much further into this the current century. It saw co-ops not as dynamic and area, but does he agree that part of the problem is that, forward looking, but as things that were associated very these days, the route that people end up pursuing in an much with the past. He rightly drew attention to the alleged solution to their debt problems seems to be considerable change in the fortunes and perceptions of driven far more by which advert they see first, rather the co-op movement. I am sure that he shares my view than which type of solution is most appropriate to that part of the reason for the turnaround in the perception them? In some cases, it will be insolvency, but in many of the co-op ideal in recent years has been the performance others it is not, regardless of the fact that the specific of the Co-op Group, notably under Len Wardle as chair firm that they go to may have charges that are and Peter Marks as chief executive. inappropriately high. I also echo my hon. Friend’s tribute to Cliff Mills, a solicitor from Cobbetts and an expert on the law Tom Greatrex: The hon. Gentleman makes an important surrounding co-ops. When I had the privilege of taking point. I am under no illusion that the issue is an easy a private Member’s Bill through the House in 2002-03 one for the Government to tackle, but I wanted to that, I hope, began the process of modernising co-op reflect the concern and raise it with the Minister. I am law, Cliff Mills was a huge support and source of sure that he is aware of it, but I hope that he will expertise. My hon. Friend was right to pay tribute to comment on it. him. 375WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 376WH

[Mr Gareth Thomas] of credit unions and thus draw people away from the very high interest rates charged by some of the legal The hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) companies. Some of them offer small amounts of money rightly drew attention to the contribution that credit on what are often very high interest rates, relatively. unions make and to their considerable potential to do more. He drew attention to the opportunity for the Damian Hinds: I am sure that the shadow Minister current Government to build on the work of the previous knows that the junior savers club mentioned earlier is Government in encouraging access to credit unions. He not the only one. Many credit unions operate junior gently asked—I paraphrase—why on earth the Government savers clubs, which allow young people to become more had not got on with the legislative reform order. Perhaps familiar with credit unions and encourage them to get the Minister will be able to tell us when that order might into the savings habit. appear before us. A number of hon. Members drew attention to the Mr Thomas: Indeed, but that brings me back to what difficulties that many people in the community that we I said about the difference between Wales and England. represent have in needing to access money. I remember Credit unions have a far greater reach in Wales than from my time in government the huge concern that grew they do in England. We definitely need to see better and still exists today, which no doubt the Minister will access to credit unions in England, and better teaching want to comment on, in relation to illegal money lending. in our schools about their potential to encourage saving I pay tribute to my predecessor as the Minister responsible from an early age. for consumer affairs, Ian McCartney, for, among other The hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire things, creating the concept of illegal money lending (Jesse Norman) made a number of important points teams. That resulted in multidisciplinary teams, whose about the contribution that co-ops have made. He adds members included police and people from housing to the pressure on the Government to prove their associations. They worked together not only to crack commitment to the co-op sector, as opposed to making down on loan sharks, many of whom were particularly worthy speeches about them. I echo his tribute to the unpleasant individuals—there has been real success in life of Robert Oakshott. However, I gently suggest that bringing loan sharks to justice—but to ensure that he needs to do a little more to convince us that there victims had support to get out of the financial problems really is a Conservative co-op movement, and that it is that had drawn them into the web of the loan sharks. not just an oxymoron. We shall doubtless hear more Credit unions were often a crucial part of helping the from him on that subject in due course. victims of loan sharks to move towards a more sustainable I turn to the contribution of the hon. Member for future. In that context, I will come in due course to a Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch). She made a point that my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn made number of references to the role of co-ops in the south-east, about access to credit unions across the country. and I am sure that that will have been appreciated by The hon. Member for East Hampshire raised the the members and leadership of those co-operatives. She issues relating to social ISAs. I would be interested in also alluded to the possibility of Conservatives standing the Minister’s response to the view expressed by the under the banner of the co-operative movement. I hon. Member for East Hampshire about their potential. understand why she would want to tone down the The Minister may be aware of the Big Lottery Fund’s Conservative brand at the next election, but I doubt launch of a social impact bond—a particular model that that that will be enough to help her. it has backed. Again, I would welcome hearing from the My hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Minister the Government’s view on whether that bond Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) spoke about the role has considerably more potential and in particular whether and contribution of supporters trusts. He and the House it has the potential to help co-operatives to expand, may not be aware that the two greatest football teams in perhaps in the way that my hon. Friend the Member for Wales and England, Swansea City and Arsenal, both Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) alluded to in the have supporters trusts, and both have been helped by context of renewable energy. Supporters Direct. My hon. Friend will know, as will My hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn drew attention some of my other hon. Friends—but not Government to the success of Tower colliery following its conversion Members, I suspect—that Supporters Direct was originally to a worker-led co-operative. I echo his praise of the proposed by the Co-operative party and taken up by my leadership of the colliery. I enjoyed my visit to Islwyn right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) with him. I very much enjoyed the opportunity to see when he worked for Lord Smith of Finsbury. the Islwyn community credit union. Some fantastic I join my hon. Friend in urging the Premier League people are involved in the leadership and running of and the Government to sort out the funding problems that organisation and are making a real difference to his for Supporters Direct. It would be a terrible tragedy if community. He referred to the considerable success that the misjudged comments of someone who has now resigned Wales has had in ensuring that there is access to a credit from the leadership of Supporters Direct were to undermine union for anyone and everyone in Wales if they want to the concept of football supporters trusts and the ambition join one. That is surely an ambition that we should have of giving fans ownership and some further involvement for England. It would be good to hear from the Minister in the running of football clubs. Perhaps the Minister whether the Government share that ambition and what can give us an indication of the Government’s thinking they intend to do about it. on that, and say whether they have been able to sort out My hon. Friend made a very interesting proposal future funding for Supporters Direct. when he talked about whether we should consider lowering A number of hon. Members referred to the contribution the age at which someone can join a credit union. That of the Rochdale Pioneers. It is worth restating that, in might encourage far earlier recognition of the potential opening their first shop on 21 December 1844, they 377WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 378WH were responding to the acceleration of mechanisation in full what they had injected into the bank. Will the implicit in the industrial revolution. They put forward Minister assure the House that all the paperwork that fairly radical ideas, typical of the traditions of the UKFI has produced on the feasibility of remutualisation centre-left, in challenging the status quo to make things will be published urgently, so that the House can assess better for their community. In part, they were driven by whether UKFI and Deutsche bank, its advisers, did a the terrible poverty in the community and the need to thorough piece of work? provide people with affordable food. Some Members The Minister will be aware of the real concern about praised the contribution made by Robert Owen and the other aspects of the financial mutual world, particularly other community examples of co-operation in action about the new European capital requirements to enable that took place before the Rochdale Pioneers set up financial services businesses better to absorb losses, and their first shop; they were right to acknowledge that how they will impact on building societies following the co-operative spirit. introduction of the new Basel standards. They do potentially Today, the global co-operative movement has about pose a threat to the future of building societies. I 800 million members. It employs 100 million people and recognise that the Government have acknowledged that secures the livelihoods of some 3 billion people—half and have been in discussion with European partners. I the world’s population. Indeed, there are 20% more jobs would welcome an update on that and further reassurance in co-operatives around the world than in multinational from the Minister that the Government are on the case corporations. If only the same attention were given to to ensure that these new requirements do not prevent the needs of co-operatives as is given to multinational successful mutuals such as Nationwide, the Coventry corporations, the co-op movement would be in even and the Principality from being able to play an important better shape. role in the financial services sector in future. My hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich The Minister will also have been briefed about the West identified the traditions of collective self-help and concerns about the future of friendly societies and the the entrepreneurial spirit as driving influences in setting way in which the Financial Services Authority has up effective co-operatives. As we heard, the UK has revisited its own rule book and used a piece of legal almost 5,000 successful co-ops, with almost 13 million advice. A former Minister, who was re-elected to the members. The turnover of UK co-ops has risen by some House in 2010, introduced the legislation on which that 25% over the past three years. Perhaps the best-known legal advice is based, but has said that it should not be example of co-ops in the UK is the Co-op Group, of applied to mutuals. None the less, that legislation is which the Co-op bank is an essential part. Its move into being used by the FSA as the basis of a piece of legal renewable energy was mentioned by others. There is advice, which it will not publish, that is causing a series also, of course, the excellent John Lewis Partnership. If of friendly societies to face the prospect of demutualisation I may crave your indulgence, Mr Amess, I praise also in the long term. It cannot be in the interests of the those who are part of the Rainbow Saver credit union, country to have an important part of the financial in which I declare an interest, and those who run the mutual sector facing such a threat. excellent Harrow and Hillingdon credit union. I appreciate that both Hector Sants, the head of the As I said, I had the privilege of piloting a private FSA, and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who Member’s Bill through the House, which enjoyed the has responsibility for financial mutuals, have come to support of a huge number of co-operatives, including the all-party parliamentary group on building societies those running Labour clubs, rugby clubs and even and financial mutuals to answer questions on the issue. armed forces clubs—and, surprising to me at the time, As yet, though, there appears to be no serious effort by those running Conservative clubs. They all supported the Treasury and the FSA to find a resolution to the my Bill, which helped me to get it past the then Member problem. I urge the Minister, who has made positive for Bromley and Chislehurst, one Eric Forth. comments about co-operatives and mutuals in the past, Ministers have made a number of positive speeches to use the influence of his position to turn that situation over the past 12 months or so about the potential around. contribution of co-operatives, but the Government’s Furthermore, will the Minister explain what on earth record over that time suggests that the apparent enthusiasm has gone wrong with the coalition’s support for co-operative for co-ops shown by the coalition is not backed up by schools? Schools that want to become co-operative the reality. trusts have traditionally been funded to the tune of The hon. Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans), some £5,000 to help with the process. Currently, there who is no longer in his place, and my right hon. Friend are more than 100 schools that want to become co-operative the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) schools. Given the success of that programme, why has have, on many occasions, raised the issue of the possible the Education Secretary decided to end funding for that remutualisation of Northern Rock. Indeed, Co-op programme? Members on the Opposition Benches have been pushing My right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South for some time for the Government to give serious and Penarth mentioned that the previous Labour consideration to the case for remutualisation. Government had intended to announce the mutualisation The Government have clearly rejected that option, of British Waterways. Will the Minister explain how it but it is important that they publish the work that one will become a genuinely mutual organisation that involves hopes has been done on that subject by United Kingdom people other than just a select group of trustees in its Financial Investments Ltd. That is necessary not least running? because, when the Government said that they intended The Minister has done much work on the future of to sell Northern Rock to the highest bidder, there was the Post Office and has announced plans for it to much media speculation, presumably briefed by Treasury become a mutual. One of the concerns that has been sources, that the Government did not expect to receive expressed both on the Opposition Benches and outside 379WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 380WH

[Mr Thomas] Despite the rather bizarre remarks by the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas), there have been many the House is about whether or not there is a viable strong developments under both Labour and Conservative business plan. I welcome the mutualisation of the Post Governments. I point, for example, to the Oxford Centre Office, but there needs to be a viable business plan if it is for Mutual and Employee-owned Business, which is to be successful. Will the Minister provide further clarity developing a lot of the thinking and the research so that on that matter? we can drive forward this agenda in a consensual way. Will the Minister explain why the Government have Although this area requires cross-party support, a lot of decided to scrap the funding that supports the development good things have been happening to it for quite some of community pubs? The previous Government worked time. with the Plunkett Foundation to set up a programme Let me try to answer some of the points that have to support such pubs. The scrapping of the funding can been raised during the debate and then I will make some only hasten the demise of pubs in many communities comments about the direction of Government policy. A across the country, making it far more difficult for number of speeches focused on credit unions. My hon. people to come together and organise themselves. Friends the Members for East Hampshire (Damian My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree Hinds), for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) talked about the failure of the Government to encourage and for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) and the community energy projects. Given that the Minister is a hon. Members for Islwyn (Chris Evans), and for Rutherglen member of the same political party as the person who is and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) spent a considerable responsible for that dismal record, will he pledge to take amount of time talking about credit unions. This is an back to the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate area in which the Government would like to see real Change the concern of the Chamber over his lack of progress. commitment to co-operative energy projects? My hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire has Lastly, in terms of a critique of the coalition’s record been a champion of credit unions. I pay tribute to the on co-operatives, will the Minister explain to the Chamber work that he has been doing in that area. He mentioned why the Secretary of State for International Development that the Department for Work and Pensions has earmarked is refusing to fund again the International Labour £73 million to invest in the sector. However, we are not Organisation’s project for helping co-operatives in Africa? spraying money around in the way in which we have That programme has had considerable success in helping seen in the past; we have done a feasibility study to see to strengthen the co-operative model, particularly in the where that money can best be spent. financial sector in Africa, and such a decision seems My hon. Friend referred to a proposal by the Association somewhat at odds with the coalition’s commitment to of British Credit Unions, which is one of the main both international development and co-operatives. associations that brings together credit unions, to build This has been an interesting debate with some important an IT platform to enable credit unions to work together contributions from all parts of the Chamber. None the potentially through the post office network. Such a less, the only conclusion that one can draw after 12 months move would be significant, and it picks up on remarks of the coalition Government is that there have been a that hon. Members have made during the debate. There lot of fine words about support for co-operatives, but are two real challenges for credit unions. One is to get not much action. I hope the Minister will give us some better access, so that people can access credit unions. clarity as to when that situation will change. Clearly, a better IT platform, particularly if it was linked to the post office network, would be a massive 4.46 pm development in improving our constituents’ ability to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, access credit unions. The second issue is even more Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): This has been important: awareness. There needs to be awareness that a very well informed and, mostly, consensual debate. this credit source is available and that it can compete There was a break-out of competition between the with the high-cost merchants that are around. Conservative and Labour parties, but it obviously falls I want to reflect on something that the hon. Member to a Liberal Democrat Minister to bring everyone back for Harrow West said. He was quite right to praise his to real co-operative principles. It was good to see all predecessor, Sir Ian McCartney, on setting up the illegal contributors to the debate affirming their commitment money lending teams. As a Minister, I have ensured that to that. I can affirm my personal commitment, my our funding for those teams continues at the levels that party’s commitment and the coalition Government’s we inherited. Given the cuts that we are having elsewhere, commitment to working for the co-operative movement that was a significant decision. The reason that we and to developing the mutual sector more broadly. continued their funding is that those teams are successful If we look at the performance of the sector at the and they are curbing the criminals who prey on vulnerable moment, we can see that it is in rude health. The people in our communities. turnover of the co-operative movement is slightly more I urge Members to look at how illegal money lending than £33 billion and the turnover of the mutual movement teams are working. I have been privy to a video of their rose to more than £100 billion last year, with more than work, from which one anecdote emerged that shows the 1 million employees. Interestingly, the Co-operative importance of increasing awareness of the availability Financial Services won the FT sustainable banking of credit unions. A family had borrowed £200 from a award in 2010. Clearly, this is a sector that is doing well. “family friend” on their estate and 10 years later, after Another interesting fact is the Co-Operative Group’s intimidation and threats of violence, the family had takeover of Somerfield, which increased its overall turnover. paid back £90,000. It was only when the illegal money If it was listed on the FTSE 100, it would be a FTSE top lending teams came and helped them, prosecuted their 30 company. “family friend” and then gave them support as victims 381WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 382WH of a crime that they became aware of the existence of sale process for Northern Rock. He had written to the credit unions. Now they are borrowing from credit all-party group on building societies and financial mutuals, unions and they have put their lives back together, and he made it very clear that any interested parties can which is a tribute to the work of the illegal money bid, including mutuals. That reaffirms the Government’s lending teams. However, that story tells us an awful lot commitment to promote the mutual financial sector. about this area and how we should approach it; above Having said that, of course, we cannot rule out any all, it shows the need to improve people’s awareness of other options at this stage. Members may be interested credit unions. to know that two building societies have expressed an As my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire interest in taking over Northern Rock. Remutualisation also said, we need reform in this area of credit unions. is an issue that must be addressed in due course by We have been waiting for a legislative reform order—I UKFI, but I am not the Minister with responsibility for share colleagues’ impatience about that—but it is coming UKFI. Nevertheless, those remarks that I have just and I am sure that in the autumn we can get it through made should reassure colleagues. the House. I am glad that it will have such support and it will make the difference, as my hon. Friend said. Chris Leslie rose— The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West rose— made an interesting point in relation to potential abuse Mr Thomas of credit unions by people who then went bankrupt. If he can write to me about that issue, we will be responding— Mr Davey: There are two colleagues who want to soon, I hope—to the consumer credit and personal intervene. I will take the interventions in order, first insolvency call for evidence. Often, people have not taking the intervention from the hon. Member for focused on the personal insolvency side of the credit Nottingham East (Chris Leslie)—I think that that is his unions issue, and the hon. Gentleman was quite right to constituency, these days. focus on it. The link between personal insolvency and credit unions is an important one to make and if there Chris Leslie: I am very grateful to the Minister for his are problems we need to deal with them. recollection of my constituency. He has talked about the trade sale route that the Government have announced The hon. Gentleman also rightly raised another for Northern Rock. Notwithstanding the fact that he important issue; although it is not particularly germane has said that other building societies might be interested to the title of this debate, it is important and I am glad in a direct purchase of Northern Rock, can he say to have the chance to speak about it. He raised the categorically that the member buy-out option, whereby concerns that many of us have about the advertising of borrowers and savers of Northern Rock might have the debt advice. Frankly, I think that I have broken a few chance to enter into a member buy-out arrangement, is radios as I have thrown things at them when they spew still on the table and is still being considered among the out these tempting adverts. We know that those adverts other options that he was talking about? I understand are a temptation that people should not go for. We need that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West to address debt advice. In that regard, one of the issues (Mr Thomas) has written to the Treasury with the also applies to credit unions: the importance of raising details of the member buy-out option. awareness so that people know that there is free, quality debt advice available. We must make sure that that is Mr Davey: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am not better known. The money advice service is doing some the Minister responsible for Northern Rock and my research on debt advice and considering how we can Department is not responsible for it either, so I would take it forward as a priority. be ill advised to go into detail about it. I have tried to I want to go back to some of the other issues that ensure that the Members attending this debate received were raised in the debate. The issue of Northern Rock some answers about that issue and I believe that I have raised its head. First, I want to say to some Opposition fulfilled that obligation, but he may need to attend Members that the list of building societies that demutualised Treasury questions to probe further on the issue. during the previous Labour Government is rather a I will now give way to the hon. Member for Harrow long one. I suggest to those Members that they would West, although I hope that he will bear in mind the be wise to press the Government very carefully on the answer that I have just given to his hon. Friend. issue, not least because my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills pressed the Mr Thomas: With all due respect, I would have Labour Government to tie up some of the loopholes in expected the Minister to have been briefed on these that area, which they failed to do. I urge them to be a questions. little more cautious as they approach the Northern Rock issue. Mr Davey: I have been briefed.

Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Will Mr Thomas: And I would have expected the Minister the Minister give way? to have given a better answer than the one he has just given. At the very least, will he commit to write to those Mr Davey: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman in a Members who have taken part in this debate with the moment, but I think that he should listen to my full answer to the question put by my hon. Friend the response before intervening. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie)? I can say something to those Opposition Members who raised the issue of Northern Rock. I think it was Mr Davey: I am quite surprised by the hon. Member the Commercial Secretary to the Treasury, Lord Sassoon, for Harrow West, because he has been a Minister and he who made a statement recently that we have launched a will absolutely know that there are areas that a Minister 383WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 384WH

[Mr Davey] Mr Davey: If the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to listen, I will bring his remarks and those of other does not go into when they are the responsibility of Members to the attention of my Treasury colleagues. another Department. As I instructed the hon. Member Other general issues about mutuals and co-operatives for Nottingham East, I believe that he needs to attend were raised very pertinently by the hon. Member for Treasury questions and ask Treasury Ministers about West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) and indeed by the this matter. right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth. They asked how we can develop mutuals. The hon. Alun Michael: Will the Minister give way? Member for West Bromwich West made it very clear that we cannot impose mutuals. Mutuals have to take Mr Davey: In a moment. I think that I have given a people with them and there cannot be a top-down good answer to the question that was put. I am happy approach. I absolutely agree with that. In addition, the to answer a question put by the right hon. Member for right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael), as he is a talked about a sense of ownership. When we approach very experienced former Minister. the issue of mutuals—whether that is developing more mutuals in the private sector or developing them through Mr Thomas: This has been a major issue for some public sector reform—we have to learn those lessons. time and the Minister should have been better briefed I will give two examples, one from my constituency on it. and one connected to my responsibilities. In my constituency, we have one of the first social enterprise Mr Davey: Let me help the right hon. Member for mutuals in the health sector—Your Healthcare, which Cardiff South and Penarth and the hon. Member for was spun out of a local primary care trust. It has Harrow West, who has twice interrupted me from a slightly more than 450 employees, and will soon have sedentary position, by saying that the decisions have local community members as well. It has been going for not been made yet. If a lot of decisions had been made, nearly a year, and is already a huge success. The employees I would be very happy to tell right hon. and hon. feel a much greater sense of empowerment and feel Members about them and let them ask questions about relieved of bureaucracy. They elect their own managers, them. and have been driving efficiency and improving care. The enterprise is a key part of the reform agenda, and shows how powerful mutuals can be. Alun Michael rose— The notion of a health mutual in my constituency was first put forward about five years ago, and I pay Mr Davey: Before the right hon. Gentleman intervenes tribute to the previous Government for being prepared again, I urge Opposition Members to remember that to countenance such an idea. There was a lot of debate, Labour’s record on demutualisation was very poor. because the Government could not quite agree on the Does he want to apologise for Labour’s record in that issue, but at least they left the door open. Unfortunately, area? the PCT went too quickly and tried to tell the staff that they had to form a social enterprise, and from the start Alun Michael: I will not go into point scoring of that the staff were worried about pensions and terms and sort. We know where the demutualisation exercise started conditions. The local unions came to me, and I went to and that piece of history is not a very good one. the PCT and said, “I think the idea is brilliant, but you I say to the Minister that it is normal in exchanges have to take people with you,” for the very reasons that of this sort that, if a Minister is unable to answer a the hon. Member for West Bromwich Albion— question, they offer to follow up the debate by providing [Laughter.]—West Bromwich West gave. The PCT stopped an answer to that question. The difficulty that we have the process and re-consulted. It took a lot longer, but is that very often there is not a good understanding of the local unions were then very supportive and the mutuality within Whitehall; I am talking about official mutual has now gone forward very successfully. That is machinery now, particularly in relation to the Treasury. an example from the health sector of how important it Therefore, there is a fear that a door has been closed is to involve people and to use a bottom-up approach. that should be kept open. That is what the question The other example is the Post Office mutual proposal, is—is the door still open? It is a straightforward question contained in part 1 of the Postal Services Act 2011. If it and suggesting that people should attend Treasury questions is appropriate, we can move Post Office Ltd from being is not really answering it. Crown-owned to a mutual model, and the hon. Member for Harrow West is absolutely right that we could do Mr Davey: With respect, the right hon. Gentleman that only if the Post Office became commercially viable. clearly did not listen to the answer that I gave, because The post office network relies on subsidy at the moment, I made it very clear that the door is open. but we are turning that situation around. I refer the hon. Gentleman to our policy paper published in October Alun Michael: I did listen. last year, which contains a whole set of serious business changes that will ensure that the post office network can go forward, wash its face and approach mutualisation. Mr Davey: If the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to Those proposals are in stark contrast to how the network listen— was run by the previous Government. For all the hon. Gentleman’s big words about mutuals, when we debated Alun Michael: That is better. That is not what you the relevant clauses on the mutualisation of the Post said, though. Office, neither Labour Front Benchers nor Labour Back 385WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 386WH

Benchers asked a single question or tabled a single is needed? In my experience, once officials grasp the amendment. That is how interested they were when a contribution of mutuality they become great enthusiasts, major proposal on mutualisation was introduced to and we need that in Whitehall. Parliament. It therefore ill behoves the hon. Gentleman to make such criticism when Labour Front Benchers Mr Davey: I am sure that we will learn the lessons did not even bother to ask questions in Committee or from the previous Government’s mistakes. on Report about such a significant mutualisation. The We have also launched 20 pathfinder mutuals in areas hon. Member for West Bromwich West and the right including health, education and housing, to test some hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth were right of the issues that went untested under the previous to make the points they did about mutuals having to Government. The Localism Bill, which we will soon be work bottom-up. considering, will give voluntary and community groups I want to talk a little more about the Government’s the right to challenge local authorities to take over approach. The hon. Member for Harrow West criticised delivery of local services. This is a rich picture of us for not doing anything. Let me be rather more action, and therefore far from not delivering on rhetoric, balanced and pay tribute to the previous Government as the hon. Member for Harrow West tried to maintain, for some of the things they did. The establishment of we are indeed delivering. the new governance model of the community interest There are one or two other questions that it would be company has been very successful. When I recently remiss of me not to answer before I sit down, but I am went to see the community interest company regulator, conscious that I have been speaking for slightly longer who is based in Companies House, I heard about many than 20 minutes. There were a few questions about successful CICs that are setting up. The previous Supporters Direct. The Government are actively engaging Government’s decision to have the NHS right to request in talks with the premiership in the hope of resolving in community health care, again was a good thing, as the matter. The new head of Supporters Direct will, I was the development of co-operative trust schools, and hope, smooth some of the ruffled feathers, and perhaps we will support those types of initiative. The hon. with his efforts and those of the Government some moneys Member for Harrow West, from a sedentary position, can be unlocked. I think that Members will understand says “How?” He ought to wait a bit and let me finish the why I cannot say too much more about that. list of positive things. I was being positive about the The hon. Member for East Hampshire asked about previous Government and therefore he ought not to social ISAs, and the hon. Member for Harrow West intervene at this point. took up the issue. The hon. Member for Harrow West The hon. Gentleman mentioned legislation. The previous will no doubt be delighted to know that I was not Government, through private Member’s Bills with cross- briefed on that question. I am very much in favour of party support, improved the legislative framework. This social finance initiatives, such as social impact bonds, Government are modernising that framework and taking community development finance institutions and the it forward. We have heard about the legislative reform big society bank, and think that the Government have order. It is currently before Parliament and we hope to been very creative in this area. My colleagues in the debate it in early autumn. We have also enabled greater Treasury and the Cabinet Office will get a lot of support electronic communication by mutuals, which is a very from the Department for Business, Innovation and good deregulatory measure for them, and we will commence Skills in taking the issues forward. shortly the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies I welcomed this debate, and it has been a good one. I and Credit Unions Act 2010. We are consulting on the wish the hon. Member for Harrow West had not brought future registration and regulation of mutual societies as so many partisan things into it, such as mentioning part of Treasury reforms to the landscape of financial Swansea and Arsenal, but apart from that I am sure services regulation. The Cabinet Office will give public that collectively, as a Parliament, we will take forward sector workers new rights to form employee-owned this very important agenda. mutuals and co-operatives, going much further than the previous Government and generating a huge amount of interest in many areas of the public sector. 5.9 pm In February 2011 we established the mutuals taskforce Mr Bailey: Perhaps I had better start by saying that to advise the Government and to help drive the process I am the Member for West Bromwich West, not West forward, finding a way around some of the technical Bromwich Albion. Representing, as I do, a constituency problems that were completely ignored by the previous that is evenly divided between West Bromwich Albion Government. The right hon. Member for Cardiff South supporters and Wolverhampton Wanderers supporters, and Penarth said that this is not understood; we have I am always anxious to demonstrate that my football set up the mutuals taskforce to drive the process and to loyalty resides with Cheltenham Town football club. I get external advice so that we can deal with some of the am a season ticket holder there and a member of the problems with pensions and other regulatory or technical supporters’ trust. problems. The mutuals taskforce has already met five This has been a good debate. There has been some times, and is a key development in driving the process political partisanship, but that is good, and it is probably forward. good for the co-operative movement that the Government are being put on their political mettle to demonstrate Alun Michael: I am encouraged by what the Minister their level of commitment. It struck me that it would has just said. Can he assure us, though, that whoever is have been almost impossible to have this debate 10 years dealing with that process in the Treasury and the Cabinet ago, because the movement had not then demonstrated Office will not be dismembered and sent off to do other how important it is, not just to the economy but to the things as soon as they have developed the expertise that development of policies relevant to each of the parties’ 387WH Co-operatives and Mutuality30 JUNE 2011 Co-operatives and Mutuality 388WH

[Mr Bailey] successful. I do not say that we have won every battle, or that there are not battles still to be fought, but we political platforms. I ought to mention that that is undoubtedly gained much greater recognition of that demonstrated pictorially, succinctly and effectively in difference and the importance of the model within the the Co-operatives UK report “The UK co-operative range of financial services. We need reassurance that economy 2011: Britain’s return to co-operation”. If that opportunity still exists. If it is rejected, we need the Members have not read it, I recommend that they do so. reasons for the rejection to be clearly stated and It is a succinct and easy-to-read document, just right for understandable by the co-op movement. Members of Parliament, and it graphically and effectively Several other issues were raised, including that of demonstrates the range of co-operatives, their impact Post Office. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow and their potential. West said that we are happy that the model is being Turning to the issues raised, credit unions were mentioned considered for Post Office, but given the interdependence a lot. We will wait with bated breath for the legislative of Royal Mail and Post Office, the right business relationship reform order, but it is good that the Government have at between them is needed so that a co-operatively or least recognised the issue and are prepared to take mutually run Post Office is not undermined. It would be action to advance that agenda. It has always been a disastrous to the movement for an organisation of the source of amazement to me that credit unions, so sheer scale and public standing of Post Office to be powerful in a number of countries that are not regarded made into a mutual in such a way that the financial as cradles of co-operation, do not seem to have taken model undermined it and it was not successful. That off in this country. There is enormous potential for a could put back the cause of mutuality and co-operation Government to provide the right legislative background for many years. for them to do so, and I welcome that. My last point concerns an issue on which there was a There was a fairly sharp political exchange on Northern lively exchange—Conservative co-operators, whom I Rock. From my perspective, there is definitely a feeling welcome. It is a reflection of the success of the movement in the financial press and elsewhere that the option of that so many politicians are now willing to jump on that any form of mutual ownership has been closed. The bandwagon. However, some of us were co-operators Minister says that the door is open and that mutuals through the difficult days of the ’70s and ’80s and have still have the opportunity to bid. However, I get the brought our battle scars into Parliament with us. The feeling that the conventional Treasury-backed wisdom commitment and capacity of Conservatives to claim is that that is not appropriate. My right hon. Friend the co-operative credentials will be judged only when they Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) can demonstrate what they have delivered during this made a point about Treasury thinking. Parliament. Co-operators such as my hon. Friend the The Minister commented on the previous Government’s Member for Harrow West can do so, having piloted a record on de-mutualisation. I cannot remember exactly co-operative Bill through the Commons. A range of which building society de-mutualised when, but I know changes were made as a result of pressure applied by that when Labour first came to office, co-operators Co-operative Members of Parliament. We in the Opposition found it difficult to get the Treasury and Whitehall to are looking at Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members understand what made mutual organisations and to see whether they can do the same with their Government. co-operatives different and what potential they had. Question put and agreed to. Numerous battles were fought to obtain that recognition, some of them through the passage of private Members’ Bills; my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West 5.17 pm (Mr Thomas) piloted one of them. Over time, we were Sitting adjourned. 53WS Written Ministerial Statements30 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 54WS

decision. In view of the 21 December 2012 deadline, we Written Ministerial will continue to work with other member states to press the Commission to propose such an amendment at the Statements earliest opportunity. The Commission has said that it proposes to issue Thursday 30 June 2011 guidance on the interpretation of the judgment and its implementation by member states. Although guidance will not offer all the advantages of a legislative amendment, TREASURY we nevertheless welcome this and will work constructively to ensure it is as helpful and clear as possible. In view of European Court of Justice Judgment industry’s need for early clarity about how to implement (Use of Gender by Insurers) the judgment, we will press the Commission to bring this forward as soon as possible. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban): On 1 March, the European Court of Justice ruled that the use of gender as a risk factor by insurers CABINET OFFICE should not result in individual differences in premiums and benefits for men and women, with effect from 21 December 2012. Industrial Action The Government were very disappointed with this result, which it expects to have a negative impact on consumers. The judgment goes against the grain of the The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster common sense approach to equality which the UK General (Mr Francis Maude): I am updating the House Government want to see. The Government believe that on the impact of the strike action by the PCS union on nobody should be treated unfairly because of their the civil service today. gender, but that financial services providers should be I can confirm that our latest data gathered from all allowed to make sensible decisions based on sound Government Departments show that, as of 12 noon analysis of relevant risk factors. today, just less than 100,000 civil servants were on However, in the light of our obligation to implement strike. This is around a fifth of the total civil service the judgment, this statement sets out the Government’s work force. understanding of the judgment; their intention to amend The civil service has rigorous contingency plans in the Equality Act 2010; and the steps we are taking in place to ensure that essential public services are maintained Europe to secure legal certainty and to ameliorate the during periods of industrial action. For example, I can worse effects for consumers. confirm to the House that: Legal interpretation and domestic policy approach Nearly all jobcentres are open for business, with only a The Government’s view is that the judgment only handful closed to the public. applies to new contracts for insurance and related financial All UK borders are open and operating with only minor services entered into on or after 21 December 2012. In delays to the travelling public. such contracts, the use of gender as a risk factor should 150 out of 159 HMRC enquiry centres are open for business not result in individual differences in premiums and as usual. benefits for men and women. However, any contracts All HMRC contact centres are open and online services to with gender-sensitive pricing of premiums or benefits the public are operating as usual. concluded ahead of 21 December 2012 can continue unchanged after that date. We will therefore proceed Very few civil servants wanted this strike at all, and with amendments to schedule 3 of the Equality Act less than 10% of them voted for it. Less than half of 2010. These amendments would be effected by Statutory PCS’s own members chose to take part today, and far Instrument under Section 2(2) of the European fewer than in previous strikes in 2004 and 2007. The Communities Act 1972, which we propose to make vast majority of hard working public sector employees early next year. Beforehand, the Government propose do not support today’s premature and unjustified strike to issue a consultation on a draft order, including a full and have come into work today. impact assessment, in the autumn. The Government are still in detailed discussions with European policy approach the trade unions on public sector pension reform. We The Government are working with the European had a constructive meeting on Monday, which was one Commission and other member states to ensure a of a series of ongoing talks the Government have unanimous view across the EU of the implications of committed to with the TUC, and further meetings have the judgment, and the factors that need to be considered been scheduled for July. by member states in their implementation of the judgment. The Government are committed to working openly While other EU member states and the European and constructively with the trade unions on public Commission are still considering the issues raised by the sector pensions and we believe both sides have a judgment, early indications are that our interpretation responsibility to see the talks through. This is a genuine is shared across Europe. In view of the need for legal consultation in order to try to agree a way forward with certainty, our preferred outcome would be an amendment the unions. of the gender directive to give effect to the judgment. The reform of public sector pensions is essential, but We are therefore disappointed that the Commission has we will ensure that public sector pensions will still be said it has no plans to propose any amendment, leaving among the very best, with a guaranteed pension which the text of the directive inconsistent with the court’s very few private sector staff now enjoy. But they will be 55WS Written Ministerial Statements30 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 56WS paid later because people live longer. And public sector satisfied with both agreements and am able to approve staff will pay more, for a fairer balance between what them in line with the requirement in the undertakings. I they pay and what other taxpayers pay. will not be publishing these agreements given the nature We know that pension reform is an important issue and the extent of the commercially confidential material and one that public sector staff care about a great deal. they contain. I want to thank the vast majority of hard working Undertakings in Lieu public sector employees for coming in to work today, I received advice from Ofcom and OFT on 22 June, ignoring the pickets and putting the public first. copies of which have been placed on the DCMS website. Both regulators are clear that the points raised in the consultation exercise do not require them to change CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT their previous advice to me. Nevertheless, there have been some constructive suggestions for strengthening the undertakings which I am minded to accept. News Corp/BSkyB Merger Editorial Independence A number of changes have now been made to the The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media undertakings to strengthen further the arrangements and Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt): I am today publishing the for editorial independence: results of the consultation on the undertakings in lieu I Sky News’ articles of association set out the definition of launched on 3 March alongside the subsequent advice I independent directors; have received from Ofcom and the OFT. The consultation Meetings of the board of Sky News about editorial or did not produce any information which has caused journalistic matters will Ofcom and the OFT to change their earlier advice to only be quorate if an independent director with senior me. I could have decided to accept the original undertakings. editorial and/or journalistic expertise is present. Similar However a number of constructive changes have been arrangements apply to the corporate governance and editorial suggested, and as a result, I am today publishing a committee. This is a response to representations that these revised, more robust set of undertakings and will be arrangements could be undermined if this director was often consulting on them until midday Friday 8 July. unavailable for meetings for whatever reason. The change will ensure that Sky News organises its business so as to As previously, I was not required to involve independent ensure that there is always appropriate senior editorial and/or regulators in assessing the revised undertakings. However journalistic expertise at relevant meetings. I have again done so, and sought their independent The appointment of a monitoring trustee whose main role is advice. I am today also publishing that advice, which to ensure that News Corp complies with the undertakings after careful consideration I have decided to accept. and make sure that News Corp does not do anything Background “that would prevent Newco [i.e. the spun off Sky News] On 3 March I informed the House that based on being placed in an overall position of editorial, governance, advice that I had received from OFT and Ofcom, I was commercial and financial independence in which it will contribute to plurality as Sky News did prior to the Transaction”. minded to accept undertakings from News Corp in lieu of a reference to the Competition Commission. As the Business viability Enterprise Act 2002 requires, I published these undertakings Some representations were made about Sky News’ for a public consultation which ended on 21 March. continued financial viability. I consider that Sky News’ I received over 40,000 representations to this consultation, financial viability is adequately secured through the including a very large number of near-identical responses carriage and brand licensing agreements. However, in as a result of internet campaigns. I have placed summaries the light of representations received in response to the of the main responses on the DCMS website. I met consultation exercise, I am proposing to modify the representatives from Trinity Mirror, Guardian Media undertakings to ensure that Sky continues to cross-promote Group, Telegraph Media Group, Associated News and Sky News on its channels to a level and in a manner Media, and Slaughter and May on 24 March and met comparable with such cross-promotion for the period Avaaz on 15 April. Notes of meetings will be published of 12 months prior to the date on which the undertakings at the end of the process. are accepted. This is important to ensure that Sky News The substantive points have been carefully considered continues to enjoy the same promotional support as the by me, advised by the independent regulators. current business. The Carriage and Brand Licensing Agreements Also, the monitoring trustee will provide advice to me in my review of the key operational agreements The carriage and brand licensing agreements are an requiring my approval to ensure that they are fair and important part of this process and I will only accept the reasonable. undertakings once I have approved these agreements. Articles of Association These documents have been reviewed in great detail by OFT, Ofcom and external lawyers. I believe that their Because so many of the safeguards are contained in independent, expert advice provides confidence that the the articles of association, including the requirement undertakings and key agreements are robust. They have that Sky News’ services will abide by the principle of concluded that the drafts of the carriage agreement and editorial independence and integrity in news reporting, the brand licence agreement are now fully consistent the undertakings have been amended so that I have to with the proposed undertakings. In addition, OFT confirm approve them. Furthermore, News Corp has offered an that the terms of the carriage agreement and brand additional undertaking not to attempt to cause Sky licensing agreement mean that Sky News will be practically News to act in breach of its articles of association. A and financially viable for the lifetime of the carriage copy has been published along with the consultation agreement. I can now therefore confirm that I am document and the revised undertakings. 57WS Written Ministerial Statements30 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 58WS

These are the main changes. All the changes are set to ensure compliance with the undertakings. Furthermore, out in the published revised undertakings, and a more the various agreements entered into pursuant to the detailed explanation of the reasons for the changes is undertakings will each be enforceable contracts. Therefore included in the consultation document and OFT’s report. while the phone-hacking allegations are very serious In my view, they provide a further layer of very important they were not material to my consideration. safeguards. As amended, I believe that the undertakings I would also like to draw attention to a point stressed will remedy, mitigate, or prevent the threats to plurality by Ofcom in its report. Namely, that the undertakings which were identified at the start of this process. I must be assessed against the fact that the plurality therefore propose to accept the undertakings in lieu of a concerns arose out of a change in the degree of control reference to the Competition Commission. News Corporation has over Sky. The undertakings do I have today placed on my Department’s website a not and should not seek to establish Sky News in a revised version of the undertakings and an associated position where News Corporation has no relationship consultation document. There will now be a final with it at all, because today News Corporation controls consultation period starting today and ending at midday 37.19% of Sky’s voting shares. on Friday 8 July. During this time all interested parties I am committed to maintaining the free and independent will be able to express their views on the revised press for which this country is famous. I have sought undertakings. and published independent advice throughout this process. Once again I will seek the advice of Ofcom and the I have listened carefully to points made in the consultation OFT on any responses to this consultation. As expert and amended the undertakings where appropriate. I regulators they are best placed to thoroughly understand have also gone for maximum transparency while taking the issues and to offer comprehensive and impartial reasonable account of commercial confidentiality advice. Once I have considered these representations considerations. I continue to believe that, if I allow this and the independent regulators’ advice, I will reach a deal to proceed, Sky News will be able to continue its decision on whether I still consider that the undertakings high-quality output and in fact will have greater protections should still be accepted in lieu of a reference to the for its operational and editorial independence than Competition Commission. If, after the consultation, I those that exist today. remain of the view that the undertakings properly address the concerns about media plurality, I will accept them and not refer this merger to the Competition Commission. I am required to publish the revised undertakings in COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT lieu and an explanation as to why I have made the proposed changes, and I have done so. In the interests of transparency I have also published a number of Review of Statutory Duties on Local Authorities other documents where there is no legal requirement upon me to do so. These are: the advice I have received from OFT and Ofcom; the Articles of Association of The Minister of State, Department for Communities Sky News; and a summary of responses to the consultation and Local Government (Greg Clark): In March, I announced process. The carriage agreement and the brand licence our intention to take stock of the statutory duties agreement have not beeen published given the nature placed on local authorities by central Government and and the extent of the commercially confidential material at that time, I committed to keeping the House informed they contain. I hope that this openness will help strengthen of progress. public confidence in the process and decision. At no point in recent history has there been a Other issues raised in the consultation comprehensive list of the legal duties placed on councils. During the consultation period, a number of issues The Government therefore agreed with the Local were raised that were not material to the issue of media Government Association that we should compile a list plurality. of these duties to give clarity about what these duties A number of respondents raised competition issues. are. We recognise that many ensure the provision of In addition to the fact that this could not be considered vital front line services but there are others which may as part of the media plurality public interest test, these be creating unnecessary burdens and bureaucracy for issues have already been considered by the European local authorities. Commission which concluded on 21 December last We published the draft list in March and invited local year that the increased shareholding would not significantly authorities and the general public to respond, identifying impede effective competition. any existing duties that needed to be added to the list to Some respondents also argued that News Corp could make it more comprehensive and identify any that were not be relied upon to abide by the requirements set out redundant. For the avoidance of doubt, inclusion of a in the undertakings, citing previous guarantees and particular duty on the overall list was not an indication assurances given by News in the past, and the current that the Government were considering that duty for phone-hacking allegations against The News of the removal. World. The opportunity to comment closed in April. We I have taken the view that News has offered serious received much public interest with over 6,000 respondents. undertakings and discussed them in good faith. In all Many respondents focused on protecting vital services, the circumstances, and given that the implementation of such as support for disabled children and children with those undertakings will be overseen by the monitoring special educational needs, allotments and libraries, all trustee and thereafter monitored, and if necessary enforced, of which we have committed to maintaining. There was by the OFT, I believe that there are sufficient safeguards also significant interest in removing process-based 59WS Written Ministerial Statements30 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 60WS requirements placed on local authorities as an important An electoral register that is secure and trusted, and as step in moving towards a decentralised system of complete and accurate as possible, is a key component governance. for our democracy. It is widely recognised that the This review has not happened in isolation, for example, current system of electoral registration, which has been the Munro review on child protection and the Law in place since the early twentieth century, is outdated Commission’s work on adult social care are currently and requires change. It is also clear that, although being considered by Government. This work did not proven electoral fraud is relatively rare, there is widespread seek to pre-empt the outcomes of such reviews. concern about electoral fraud in this country. From the outset, we have been clear this is an exercise In the coalition programme for government we said in compiling as comprehensive a list of duties as possible we would and obtaining feedback on those thought to be redundant. “reduce electoral fraud by speeding up the implementation of We said unequivocally that the Government would not Individual Electoral Registration”. remove any statutory duties that protect vital front line services. I announced on 15 September 2010 our intention to legislate to speed up the move to IER by introducing it In closing this review 1 am today publishing a summary into Great Britain fully during this Parliament, in 2014. of responses and the latest revised list of duties, which Individual electoral registration will bring greater protection has been updated with feedback from the responses against electoral fraud and modernise our electoral received. I have made both available on the Department’s system. IER will ask each person to register themselves, website: rather than by household, and provide information http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/ which will be cross checked by registration officers decentralisation/tacklingburdens/ before a person is added to the electoral register. reviewstatutoryduties/ Learning from the experience in Northern Ireland we Also, I have placed a copy of the summary by my have put in place arrangements to help people manage Department and the latest revised list of duties in the the transition to the new system. Any electors who do Library of the House. not respond to the initial invitation to register under At the point of publication of the consultation, we IER in 2014 will be carried forward unless the registration had identified that there were at least 1,294 duties officer has concerns the registration is ineligible. An imposed on each local authority. Between 1997-2009, individual registration would be required for new 647 duties were imposed that are still current today. The registrations and for any elector who wishes to use an table below illustrates the introduction of new duties by absent vote. Government Administration: Table: Statutory duties placed on local government by The White Paper also considers how else the system central Government extant in 2011 by Government of electoral registration could be modernised, making it Administration easier and more convenient to register to vote. Reforming the system also provides the opportunity to take steps By period of Introduction Proportion to tackle the problem of under-registration. The UK’s registration rate compares well internationally but evidence Pre-1979 8% suggests that a significant number of people are missing 1979-1996 39% from the register. This year data-matching pilots will 1997-2009 50% allow registration officers to compare their electoral 2010-2011 3% register with other public databases to identify people 100% missing from the register or entries on the register that are inaccurate or fraudulent. If data matching proves This exercise has successfully enabled a clearer picture effective, we will consider rolling it out more widely of the requirements placed on local authorities, and across the country. created a valuable record that had previously never It should be made absolutely clear that no new national existed. databases will be created and that no additional information Any future consideration of whether to remove specific will be placed on the electoral register as a result of the duties or associated guidance will be a separate process, changes to the system. and we will consult further as appropriate. We are committed to ensuring there is sufficient funding for implementation, with £108 million allocated over the course of the spending review period. We have also sought to reduce costs where possible and have DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER already cut £74 million of the costs of the previous Government’s plans by dropping the voluntary phase. In developing the proposals in the draft legislation Individual Electoral Registration and the White Paper we have worked closely with and listened to the views of stakeholders. I thank those who have already provided valuable input into the development The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark of the proposals, and welcome input during the pre- Harper): I am announcing today the publication of legislative scrutiny period from those and others who draft legislation on individual electoral registration have not yet had the opportunity to engage with us. (IER) for pre-legislative scrutiny. The draft legislation is accompanied by a White Paper which sets out the Copies of the White Paper and draft legislation have proposals for how this will be implemented. been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. 61WS Written Ministerial Statements30 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 62WS

Memorandum of Understanding (UK Government and also have concerns about pensions—have decided to go the Devolved Administrations) into work today to minimise the impact on pupils and their parents. However, I am also disappointed that there has been disruption to the lives of so many The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark parents across the country. The Government remain Harper): A meeting of the Joint Ministerial Committee committed to discussing pension reforms with all the (JMC) of Ministers from the UK Government and the teacher unions openly, honestly and constructively. three devolved Administrations took place at 10 Downing Street on 8 June 2011. With respect to the Memorandum of Understanding between their Administrations, the Ministers agreed, first, that amendments should be ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE made to the memorandum; and, secondly, that the secretariat to the JMC should initiate a technical review of the memorandum which should report to the domestic Simplifying the CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme and/or European sub-committees of the JMC in due course. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and The amendments to the memorandum focus on the Climate Change (Gregory Barker): Last year in the dispute-resolution protocol contained in annex A.3. annual energy statement my right hon. Friend, the The purpose of the amendments is to allow for the Secretary of State announced that we would consider possibility of an independent third-party providing an the future of the climate change agreements and review analysis of an inter-administration dispute where all the CRC energy efficiency scheme. We did this because four administrations agree that independent analysis we wanted to ensure that the policies we had inherited would be helpful. from the previous Administration were fit for the future, A copy of the memorandum has been placed in the and that any regulations we retained were less burdensome Library of the House and can be found in the Vote for business, and more practicable. Today we will set out Office and on the Cabinet Office website, our initial conclusions following a helpful dialogue with www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk. business, the public sector and regulators. As part of this, we have considered radical options, including the possibility of scrapping either or both of the schemes to simplify the landscape. We have concluded that in order EDUCATION to achieve our objectives, while at the same time minimising burdens on business, we will retain and simplify both Industrial Action in Schools the CRC and CCAs, with a particular emphasis on ensuring the overlaps are removed and the schemes are each streamlined. The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): The first reporting year of the CRC is now over, and On Tuesday I gave a statement to the House on this many organisations are, for the first time, identifying Government’s response to the planned industrial action and recording their entire energy use. Over this period by two of the classroom unions. In that response I we have seen the importance of the CRC for stimulating outlined the action I had taken and I also provided data the market for new low-carbon goods and service on likely closures based on early estimates from local industries—including in energy measurement, in voltage authorities and academies. optimisers and in low-energy lighting. I expect this to continue. We now have a fuller picture, updated this morning based on data from all 152 local authorities and all 707 Today my Department, together with the devolved academies. Administrations, publishes a vision for the way ahead in simplifying the CRC scheme. This document sets out Our data show that 5,679 local authority schools the main simplifications that we would like to propose were closed, 4,999 were partially open and 5,860 were for formal consultation early next year. These proposals fully open, while the situation with a further 4,320 has will provide greater business certainty by continuing the not been reported to us. fixed price sales into the second phase (rather than The figures also show that of the 707 academies and auctions of allowances in a capped system), as city technology colleges, 201 were closed, 235 were recommended by the Committee on Climate Change partially open and 271 fully open. and requested by stakeholders. Our proposals will provide This means that 27% of all local authority schools business with greater flexibility by allowing organisations were closed, 24% were partially open and 28% were to participate as natural business units. They will also open. Data were unavailable for the remaining 21%. Of reduce the administrative burden; for example by reducing the academies, 28% were closed, 33% were partially the number of the fuels which are subject to the scheme open, and 38% open. from 29 to four. We will also reduce the complexity of I know that many teachers are concerned about the the scheme by removing the 90% rule and CCA exemption changes that have been proposed to their pensions. But rules, while achieving broadly the same outcomes and I believe that we must resolve these differences through remove any overlap between schemes at registration. In discussions and that the action today, while discussions particular, businesses covered entirely by CCAs will not are still going on, was disappointing and unnecessary. I need to register and we will no longer require EU ETS am grateful to head teachers and governors who have installations to purchase allowances for electricity supplies. worked hard to keep schools open. And I am particularly Some have suggested that we should replace the CRC grateful to all those school staff who—while they may with a conventional tax. After considering this, and 63WS Written Ministerial Statements30 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 64WS other policy alternatives suggested by stakeholders, we The pet travel scheme is the system of controls in have decided to retain the CRC, in a simplified form. place to reduce the risk of rabies and certain parasites We believe that the tailored combination of reputational, from entering the UK via the importation of domestic financial and standardised energy measurement and pet animals. monitoring drivers remain the most effective way to Before pets can enter the UK under the pet travel tackle the barriers to the uptake of energy efficiency. We scheme they must meet certain animal health requirements, have ample evidence that price alone does not ensure such as being vaccinated against rabies, which are laid non-energy intensive organisations implement cost-effective down in European Union (EU) law (EC Regulation energy efficiency measures which are available to them. 998/2003). The EU regulation applies to all pet dogs, Therefore, we consider the simplified CRC—alongside cats and ferrets moving between member states and the Green Deal—is the best way to achieve greater from non-EU countries into the EU and sets out standard energy efficiency and contribute to meeting our carbon entry conditions. The regulation currently provides two budgets in the relevant sectors. temporary derogations to the UK to apply more stringent These proposed changes provide the basis for a simplified controls on rabies, ticks and tapeworm. These derogations CRC and certainty for the future. We will review CRC expire on 31 December 2011. and its fit with other policy measures in 2017. Having considered all the options very carefully, I Following the Budget announcement to increase CCA have decided, in agreement with ministerial colleagues participants’ tax relief and extend the scheme until in the devolved Administrations, that from 1 January 2023, and as part of the considerations to streamline 2012 the UK will harmonise its controls on rabies with and simplify the policy landscape we have also considered the EU-wide pet movement system. This is in line with options for the future of CCAs. We will shortly publish the positions of Ireland, Sweden and Malta who will a consultation on revisions to the scheme to reduce its also be harmonising their rabies controls from this date. administrative burden on participants. We are exploring The key differences between the current pet travel moving the future administration of the scheme to the scheme rules and how they will change from the 1 January Environment Agency, to exploit the synergies with the 2012 are: EU Emissions Trading System and the CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme, already administered by the agency. Pets travelling from other EU member states and “listed” third countries (countries which the EU considers do not This will give industry a one stop shop for energy present a higher risk of rabies incursion compared to movements efficiency regulation. Target negotiation will remain a within the EU, for example USA, Australia and Japan) will matter for Government and the sectors. no longer need to be blood tested after they have been Finally, we have looked at the interplay between the vaccinated against rabies. EU Emissions Trading System and UK regulation, in Pets travelling from other EU member states and listed third particular how the UK can best implement the provisions countries will only have to wait 21 days following their rabies in the directive that allow for small emitters to opt out. vaccination before they can enter the UK, rather than waiting My officials are continuing to discuss options with the 6 months as they do now. European Commission and are developing proposals Pets travelling from “unlisted” third countries (countries on the “equivalent measures” as required by the directive. which have not applied or been accepted for listed status These discussions have not yet concluded. I am grateful because of less robust veterinary or administrative systems or higher rabies incidence, such as China, India and South for the assistance my Department has received from the Africa) will no longer be required to undergo six months’ UK Emissions Trading Group in making the case to compulsory quarantine and will be able to enter the UK if Brussels for proportionate implementation of the directive. they meet certain requirements These include being microchipped In order to ensure our CRC proposals maximise the and having been vaccinated against rabies and passed a simplification opportunities, and take account of all the blood test. They will not be allowed to enter the UK for at least four months after the date of the vaccination. lessons learned in the first full reporting cycle, DECC and the devolved Administrations will continue the Pet owners who need to travel to the UK at short notice will informal dialogue with participants throughout this continue to have the option of voluntarily placing their pet in UK quarantine, where it will be required to undergo the autumn. My Department and the devolved Administrations necessary health treatments, such as being vaccinated and will welcome comments on our proposed way forward blood tested if required, before being released. published today.We will then formally consult on legislative The European Commission has given a strong indication proposals early next year. that it will shortly come forward with proposals that would enable the UK and other tapeworm-free countries to retain tapeworm controls with a treatment window of one to five days. There will be no mandatory tick treatment before pets ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS enter the UK. Rabies Pet Travel Scheme The proposed changes to the controls on rabies are proportionate to the disease risks involved and are scientifically justified. Since the UK pet travel scheme The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and was introduced in 2000, the likelihood of a human case Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): Today I am of rabies in Europe has substantially reduced as a result announcing changes to the rules on the movement of of an effective and ongoing programme to reduce the pet dogs, cats and ferrets into the UK under the pet disease in the domestic and wild animal populations of travel scheme. These changes will make it cheaper and EU member states, together with improvements in the easier for people to travel with their pets while putting accessibility to rabies vaccination and post-exposure in place proportionate controls to prevent rabies incursion treatment. There has been not one reported case of and enabling the UK to maintain its rabies-free status. rabies in the EU associated with the legal movement of 65WS Written Ministerial Statements30 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 66WS pets under the EU pet movement system since it was a case to show tick controls are fully effective, scientifically introduced in 2004, with many hundreds of thousands justified and proportionate to the risk of disease incursion. of pet movements having taken place during that time. We will continue to work with vets to encourage pet This reduction in the level of rabies across the EU is owners travelling abroad to treat their pets against ticks, reflected in the findings of a quantitative risk assessment as they do at present, as part of good pet ownership undertaken for Defra by the Animal Health and Veterinary practice. Pet owners are advised to talk to their vets Laboratories Agency. Their report, which has been peer about the appropriate course of action for their animals reviewed, concluded that the risk of a rabies case in the when planning a trip abroad. UK will remain very low when we harmonise with the There are a number of practical issues that still need EU pet movement rules, with a chance of, on average, to be worked through and Defra will be engaging with one case in 211 years. The risk of an outbreak leading key stakeholders, including the quarantine and carrier to a human fatality in the UK would be much lower. industries, over the coming months. Members of the This report has been published on the Defra website public who intend to travel abroad with their pet from 1 today. January 2012 should consult the Defra website for In addition to the robust scientific case for harmonisation, advice on the procedures to follow in the first instance, these revised pet movement rules will deliver substantial contact the Pets helpline or speak to their vet. benefits to UK pet owners, particularly those people with assistance dogs, making it easier and more affordable for the people who presently travel from the UK and back with their pets (on average 100,000) each year and FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE will open opportunities for many more to travel abroad with their pets. It will also reduce the time dogs need to spend cooped up in kennels. The annual benefits of Libya (Equipment for the National Transition Council) reduced controls to pet owners resident in the UK are estimated to be £7 million. These changes will also provide UK citizens the same level of free movement The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth with their pet animals which other EU citizens are Affairs (Mr William Hague): I informed the House on allowed. 16 May 2011, Official Report, vol 528, column 161, that the Government intended to provide additional practical We will continue to ensure that the UK maintains a and material support to the National Transitional Council robust level of protection against rabies, given the (NTC), as the legitimate representative of the Libyan seriousness of the disease. We have robust plans in place people. I can now confirm that the following additional to deal with rabies should it be detected. As part of our equipment has been granted to the NTC for the sole use ongoing disease preparedness work we keep the rabies of the civilian police force. control strategy under constant review, and will be 5,000 sets of body armour; consulting with stakeholder organisations later this year to ensure our plans remain appropriate and proportionate. 6,650 police uniforms; When the rules change on 1 January 2012 we will be 5,000 high visibility vests and t-shirts; looking to ensure that every pet arriving in the UK will Communications equipment for police stations. continue to be checked to ensure that it meets the EU Provision of this equipment is fully in line with requirements, regardless of which country it comes UNSCRs 1970 and 1973, including the arms embargo. from, and we expect the private quarantine sector to This equipment will enable the civilian police to carry retain a vital role in dealing with non-compliant animals. out their functions more securely and better protect Stringent penalties remain in place for those that breach NTC representatives and the significant international the law by smuggling animals into the country or by and NGO communities in Benghazi, Misrata and other knowingly using false or misleading information/ areas of Libya now controlled by the NTC. documentation. Under the HM Treasury guidelines set out in “Managing Tapeworm Public Money” these items are grants and grants-in-aid The UK is currently free of the tapeworm Echinococcus to the NTC and not gifts. Therefore Crown immunity multilocularis and there is a strong scientific case for applies to the supply of body armour and an export keeping controls in place to prevent its incursion into licence is not required. The other equipment does not the UK. The European Commission has given a strong require export licences. However, I am committed to indication that it will shortly come forward with proposals keeping Parliament informed, which is why I am setting that would enable the UK and other tapeworm-free this out in a WMS. countries to retain tapeworm controls with a treatment window of one to five days. Public Records: Colonial Documents Ticks Tick controls will no longer apply when the rules change on 1 January 2012. Although ticks which are The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth capable of transmitting the disease Mediterranean Spotted Affairs (Mr William Hague): In my statement to the Fever might enter the UK via pet movements, they House on 5 May 2011, Official Report, column 24WS, I could also enter the UK via other routes (for example announced my intention to appoint a senior and on people or vehicles). Even then, the likelihood of independent figure to oversee the process of reviewing ticks establishing in the UK is negligible. Our evidence and transferring migrated archives from the Foreign base for maintaining tick controls is less robust than for and Commonwealth Office (FCO) to The National tapeworm and we would have difficulty putting forward Archives. 67WS Written Ministerial Statements30 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 68WS

I am pleased to announce the appointment of Professor National DNA Database Ethics Group Tony Badger, Paul Mellon Professor of American history and Master of Clare College at the university of Cambridge, to this position. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the The independent reviewer will: Home Department (James Brokenshire): I am pleased to Provide independent oversight of the process of selection, announce the publication of the fourth annual report of review and release into the public domain of papers from the the National DNA Database Ethics Group on 27 June FCO’s “migrated archives”. 2011. The group was established on 25 July 2007 to Provide assurance to the wider public that the process is provide Ministers with independent ethical advice on being carried out in accordance with my commitment to the operation and practice of the National DNA Database transparency, notably my intention to release (NDNAD). “every part of every paper of interest, subject only to legal I welcome the consideration given in the report to a exemptions”. number of important issues. The Government share the These exemptions are set out in the Freedom of Information concerns of the group to ensure both the effectiveness Act, of the database and its ethical operation. The Protection Offer guidance on prioritisation of the files for selection, of Freedoms Bill takes account of the advice of, and a review and release to ensure that the papers of greatest number of concerns raised by, the group. For example, interest or highest significance are dealt with first and without as well as requiring the destruction of all DNA samples undue delay. within six months of being taken, the Bill places the Provide independent scrutiny of the steps FCO has taken to National DNA Database strategy board on a statutory locate or confirm destruction of the missing top secret files. footing and requires the Home Secretary to lay the Send a short report to me at the conclusion of the process, board’s annual report before Parliament. for publication. The ethics group’s annual report can be viewed on the website of the independent forensic science regulator and a copy will be placed in the House Library. HOME DEPARTMENT JUSTICE Forensic Science Research and Development Matrimonial Property and Registered Partnership Property Regimes The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire): On 27 January I announced a review of research and development in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice forensic science. The Government are today publishing (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): My right hon. Friend the this review and copies will be placed in the House Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, Lord McNally, Library. The review is also available on the Home Office has made the following written ministerial statement: website. The Government have today decided not to opt in to the I welcome this review into research and development European Commission’s proposals on jurisdiction, applicable in forensic science. I would like to encourage all members law, recognition and enforcement of decisions in matters of matrimonial property regimes and the property consequences of of the forensic science community to consider it carefully, registered partnerships. and consider how they can work together to co-ordinate, The Commission’s proposals aim to regulate jurisdiction and deliver and communicate research in this important applicable law as they apply both to the daily management of the field. property of spouses and registered partners (which would include Research within commercial providers is one element civil partnerships registered in the UK) and to how disputes of a much bigger landscape. I note the recommendation relating to the distribution of assets in cross-border situations are handled following the ending of a couple’s relationship through that the Home Office forensic transition board, which I divorce or dissolution of the partnership, separation or death. chair, should pay specific attention to the research and The broad balance of opinion from the Government’s consultation development requirement in the framework agreement was that it would not be in the UK’s interests to participate in for forensic science providers. The review shows that these proposals. A number of difficulties were identified. First, research and development is already an integral part of the concept of a matrimonial property regime (or equivalent for the work of any commercial forensic science provider civil partners) does not exist in the UK in the sense understood in and that there are natural links between casework and most other member states. Currently our courts take a wide view research. of the capital resources available to the parties on divorce or dissolution (including maintenance). Many of these issues are not I fully accept the recommendation and can underline included in traditional matrimonial property regimes. If the UK the Home Office’s view that forensic science providers was to opt in it would be more difficult for our courts to deal with do need to undertake appropriate research and development all aspects of the financial provision of international couples on to support their role in the criminal justice system. divorce or dissolution in cases which fall within the scope of these Providers competing to provide innovative services at proposals. the lowest cost will preserve police resources and maximise Concerns were raised about how the use of foreign law could the positive impact forensic sciences can have on tackling drive up costs and complicate the resolution of disputes in the crime. family courts and create uncertainty for third-parties who enter into a legal relationship with the couple. There was also considered Professor Silverman, the Home Office chief to be uncertainty about the interaction with succession law. scientific adviser, will continue to work with the forensic Both the House of Lords European Union Select Committee science research community and research funders to and the House of Commons European Scrutiny Committee have help co-ordinate and support research in forensic science. recommended the UK should not opt-in. 69WS Written Ministerial Statements30 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 70WS

PRIME MINISTER crossing. The Department for Transport (DfT) revised the charging regime in 2008 following public consultation. Reports of the Chief Surveillance, Interception of Details of the current charging regime are set out in the Communications, and Intelligence Services A282 Trunk Road (Dartford-Thurrock Crossing Charging Commissioners Scheme) Order 2008 (Statutory Instrument No. 1951). In recognition of the strategic importance of the The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): Ihave crossing the Government are committed to tackling the today laid before both Houses the annual reports of the current and forecast performance issues affecting the former Intelligence Services Commissioner, the Rt. Hon. crossing. As part of the spending review, the Department Sir Peter Gibson (HC 1240), the Interception of announced that, subject to consultation, prices would Communications Commissioner, the Rt. Hon. Sir Paul increase from £1.50 to £2.00 in 2011 for cars, rising to Kennedy (HC 1239) and the Chief Surveillance Commissioner, £2.50 in 2012 and that prices for other vehicles would the Rt. Hon. Sir Christopher Rose (HC 1111). also increase. The proposal to increase the charges at the crossing is both a measure to manage demand and The responsibility of the Commissioners is to provide to help to fund transport investment. For this reason I independent oversight of the use of the investigative am today launching a consultation on proposals to powers contained in the Regulation of Investigatory change the charges. Powers Act 2000, the Intelligence Services Act 1994 and the Police Act 1997. They play a vitally important role The consultation makes reference to, but does not in ensuring that public authorities make use of these include detailed proposals for, other short, medium and powers in a way which is necessary, for a legitimate aim long-term measures to be taken forward in this spending and also proportionate to what is sought to be achieved. review period in relation to the crossing. In the short They are required under the provisions of the legislation term we are announcing an initial six-month trial of a to provide an annual report to me with respect to the protocol for suspension of the charges during periods carrying out of their functions. when the severity of congestion is such as to constitute an emergency, and charge suspension would help to All three Commissioners have concluded that these ease that congestion. powers are being used properly and appropriately, in accordance with the requirements set out in statute and In the medium term our objectives are, the introduction that respective Secretaries of State and the various of a free-flow charging scheme and a review of options members of the intelligence services, police and law for additional crossing capacity. enforcement authorities and other public authorities I am pleased to announce that the consultation will are properly complying with the duties set out in the run until 23 September 2011. Everybody with an interest legislation. They consider that the public authorities is invited to take part. A consultation document and concerned are undertaking their work with diligence instructions for responding can be found on my and in accordance with the law. There have, regrettably, Department’s website. An electronic copy has been been breaches and errors. However, these have been lodged with the House Library. A public notice marking relatively few in number and in all cases they were the publication of these proposals will be posted in the caused by procedural or technical problems that have London Gazette and the Dartford Messenger on 30 June since been addressed. and in the Thurrock Gazette on the 1 July and copies of I am grateful to Sir Peter, Sir Paul and Sir Christopher all the documents will be made available for public and to the inspectors and staff which support them, for inspection at the offices of Dartford borough council their work on these reports—which taken together represent and Thurrock council. a significant increase in the transparency and oversight of these intrusive powers. WORK AND PENSIONS

TRANSPORT Social Fund Community Care Grants

Dartford-Thurrock River Crossing (Charges) The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb): I am announcing changes to the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport community care grant scheme to ensure the fund is (Mike Penning): I am publishing today, a consultation appropriately used. Discretionary social fund directions paper on proposals to change the charging regime at the will be amended with effect from 4 July 2011. Dartford-Thurrock river crossing. The proposals concern The Public Accounts Committee hearing on the new possible charging rates according to type of vehicle community care grant scheme was held on 3 November using the crossing. 2010. One of the recommendations was that more could The Dartford-Thurrock river crossing is a key part of be done to prevent abuse of the scheme. I am therefore the strategic road network. It consists of two two-lane amending Social Fund Direction 7 to prevent repeat tunnels carrying traffic to the north, and a four-lane applications being awarded, unless there has been a cable stayed bridge (the Queen Elizabeth II bridge) relevant change of circumstances. The current direction, carrying traffic to the south. The crossing spans the which applies to both community care grants and crisis River Thames between Dartford and Thurrock, forming loans, prevents repeat applications being awarded if an a trunk road link (the A282 trunk road) in the M25 application is made within 28 days of a previous application orbital motorway. for the same expenses. This period will be extended to A road user charge has been collected at the crossing 12 months. since 2003, using the powers in the Transport Act 2000, The 12-month time limit has been chosen because in order to manage the high demand for use of the this is broadly in line with manufacturers guarantee 71WS Written Ministerial Statements30 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 72WS periods. In addition the period is well within the scope I am also taking the opportunity to make some of the Sale of Goods Act and is a reasonable period minor and technical amendments to the directions. during which customers are able, if goods are faulty, to Copies of the amended Secretary of State directions take the matter up with the retailer. have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. 891W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 892W Written Answers to COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Government Procurement Card Questions Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for Thursday 30 June 2011 Communities and Local Government with reference to his Department’s publication of Government Procurement Card data for 2008 to 2010, (1) what the purpose and function was of (a) the £1,119 restaurant meal at Bank SCOTLAND Restaurant, London in October 2008, (b) the £700 restaurant meal at Bodrum in April 2008, (c) the £159 Economic Situation restaurant meal at Boisdales in April 2008, (d) the £82 meal at Boisdales in March 2009, (e) the £169 restaurant Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for meal at Kazan in September 2008 and (f) the £111 meal Scotland what recent assessment he has made of the at Kazan in November 2008; [59201] implications for (a) his Department’s policies and (b) (2) what the purpose and function was of (a) the the Scottish economy of trends in retail expenditure. £814 restaurant meals at Brasserie 44 in 2008, (b) the [62944] £345 restaurant meals at Boisdales in December 2009, (c) the £377 restaurant meal at Formans in January Michael Moore: Latest retail sales figures from the 2010, (d) the £490 restaurant meal at Gran Paradiso in Scottish Retail Consortium (SRC) published earlier this December 2009, (e) the £104 restaurant meal at Olivomare month show an expected decrease for May following on in June 2008 and (f) the £127 restaurant meal at Sardo from an increase in April. The SRC indicates this was a in March 2009; [59202] consequence of an extra bank holiday, the royal wedding (3) what the purpose and function was of (a) the and warm weather in April. Latest business surveys £195 of expenditure on leisure activities at the Royal such as the Bank of Scotland June Purchasing Managers Kings Arms on 10 June 2008, (b) the £232 of expenditure Index (PMI) indicate that the Scottish economy has on leisure activities at Electric Mountain on 14 April been growing in the first five months of the year. The 2008 and (c) the £245 leisure activities event at Pump International Monetary Fund (IMF) continues to back House in July 2008; [59203] the Government’s consolidation plans and advise against changing course. (4) what the purpose and function was of (a) the £522 restaurant meal at L’Atelier in Brussels in October High Speed Rail 2008, (b) the £78 restaurant meal at Shepherds in April 2009, (c) the £517 restaurant meal at the Haunch of Venison in December 2009, (d) the £1344 restaurant Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for meal at The National Cafe in January 2009 and (e) the Scotland what recent discussions he has had with (a) £97 restaurant meals at The Wolseley in (i) December the Secretary of State for Transport and (b) Scottish 2008 and (ii) June 2009; [59204] Ministers on the potential extension of high speed rail to Scotland. [62918] (5) what the purpose and function was of (a) the £361 spent on London Ducktours in May 2008, (b) the Michael Moore: The Government remains committed £2006 event at the Museum of London in November to a truly national high speed rail network which will be 2009, (c) the £575 event at the National Maritime delivered in phases. I met with the Secretary of State for Museum in September 2009 and (d) the £598 visit to Transport, the right hon. Member for Runnymede and the Royal National Theatre in August 2008; and who Weybridge (Mr Hammond), on 13 July and discussed a attended each event; [59205] range of issues, including new high speed rail services (6) what the purpose and function was of (a) the for Scotland, and both I and the Under-Secretary of £150 bar bill at the Princess Alice in November 2009 State for Scotland, my right hon. Friend the Member and (b) the purchases at the Cinnamon Club between for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David November 2008 and March 2010; [59206] Mundell), have discussed this issue with Scottish Ministers. (7) what the purpose and function was of (a) the Scottish Retail Consortium £291 restaurant meal at The Narrow in June 2009, (b) the £522 restaurant meal at Yong An Xianqiangfang in Shanghai in November 2008, (c) the £200 restaurant Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for meal at Rummer Hotel in July 2009; [59207] Scotland when he last met representatives from the Scottish Retail Consortium; and what matters were (8) what the purpose and function was of (a) the discussed. [62943] £500 event procured via Gruppo Events Ltd in January 2009, (b) the £904 event procured via Kudos Hospitality Michael Moore: There is regular contact at official Ltd in March 2010 and (c) the £1304 event procured level with the Scottish Retail Consortium on a wide via Leiths in October 2008. [59208] range of issues and the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, my right hon. Friend the Member for Robert Neill: The purpose and function of selected Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell), items of expenditure purchased on Government met the organisation last year to discuss challenges Procurement Cards used by the Department have been facing the sector. We continue to pursue regular engagement tabulated for ease of reference and deposited in the with the retail sector at ministerial and official level. Library of the House. 893W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 894W

HOME DEPARTMENT Offences of making off without payment are included in the Home Office offence classification ‘Preserved Asylum: EU Countries other fraud and repealed fraud offences (pre Fraud Act 2006)’ and cannot be separately identified from other Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for the offences within that classification. Home Department what assessment Frontex has made of the risk of irregular migration into the EU in 2011; Hizb-ut Tahrir and how many asylum applications it recorded in the Southern European countries of the EU in (a) 2009 and (b) 2010. [62677] Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what information her Department Damian Green: The Frontex Annual Risk Analysis holds on the countries which have banned the 2011 report published in May 2011 proposes that regular organisation Hizb-ut Tahrir; and what account she passenger flows across the external EU borders will takes of the positions of such countries in determining increase in 2011 due to rising global mobility, possible her policy on Hizb-ut Tahrir in the UK. [62232] visa-liberalisation procedures for the EU’s eastern European partners and new local border-traffic agreements along James Brokenshire: We understand that Hizb ut-Tahrir the eastern borders. (HuT) is subject to some form of ban in Bangladesh, Frontex assess the most likely high-pressure points Egypt, Germany, Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi for illegal border-crossings in 2011-12 will be along the Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, the Mediterranean coast and the land border with Turkey. United Arab Emirates and Uzbekistan. Migrants with relatively easy access to Turkey or North HuT is an organisation about which the Government Africa will continue to typify the flow. have significant concerns. We keep its activities under Frontex recorded 219,814 applications for international close review. In doing so, the Secretary of State for the protection in the EU in 2009 and 203,880 for 2010. Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member Frontex does not publish figures broken down by individual for Maidenhead (Mrs May), takes into account information member states or groups of countries. The figure excludes about HuT’s activities in other countries including the applications made in inland France. position taken by foreign governments. However, the basis on which groups can be banned in Fixed Penalties other countries is not necessarily the same as the basis on which groups can be proscribed in the UK. A group Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for the can only be proscribed in the UK if the Secretary of Home Department what plans she has for the future State believes it is ″concerned in terrorism″ within the range of offences for which a (a) fixed penalty notice meaning of the Terrorism Act 2000. Some countries and (b) penalty notice for disorder may be issued; and ban all political groups; other countries ban groups that if she will make a statement. [61399] are considered to be seditious, extremist or otherwise unacceptable. Germany, for example, has banned HuT Nick Herbert: A fixed penalty notice can be issued for on grounds relating to holocaust denial and anti-Semitism. any offence in respect of a vehicle that has been made a fixed penalty offence by order of the Secretary of State Human Rights Act 1998 for the Home Department. Fixed penalty offences are kept under continuous review and additions are made as appropriate. The Government’s new Strategic Framework Stephen Pound: To ask the Secretary of State for the for Road Safety issued in May proposed that the offence Home Department whether she has given of careless driving should be made a fixed penalty consideration to the effect on naturists of any potential offence. Subject to impact assessment and regulatory changes to the provisions of the Human Rights Act clearance, we expect this to come into effect in 2012. 1998. [62684] The offences for which a PND can be issued are likewise kept under review. As set out in the Green Mr Djanogly: I have been asked to reply. Paper “Breaking the Cycle: Effective punishment, The Human Rights Act 1998 applies to all people rehabilitation and sentencing of offenders”, the Ministry equally, whatever their lifestyle. The Government have of Justice will be consulting on a limited further extension established an independent commission to consider the of the PND scheme. The proposed additional offences case for a UK Bill of Rights and the commission has will include minor disorder offences committed in Royal announced that it is establishing a work plan which will Parks for which PNDs are currently not available, as include consultation with the public. I therefore expect well as other low-level disorder offences that may be that there will be an opportunity for any concerns about appropriate to be dealt with by a PND. the impact of potential changes to be raised with the commission. Garages and Petrol Stations: Theft Offences Against Children Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many incidents of driving away from filling stations without payment Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the were reported to police forces in each month since May Home Department what estimate she has made of the 2010; and if she will make a statement. [62656] number of (a) girls groomed for sexual exploitation and (b) perpetrators of child sexual exploitation in the Nick Herbert: This information is not collected centrally. latest period for which figures are available. [60890] 895W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 896W

James Brokenshire: Data on offences are held by the The Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre Ministry of Justice and the following table gives the (CEOP) has conducted a thematic assessment on child latest available data in relation to cautions, prosecutions sexual exploitation. The report was published on 29 and convictions for child sex offences under the Sexual June 2011 and we are now considering its findings. Offences Act 2003, Children Act 1989 and the Child Abduction Act 1984 in England and Wales.

Offenders cautioned and defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts for selected offences, England and Wales, 2004-091, 2, 3, 4, 5 2007 20086 2009 Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Statute Description Cautioned against guilty Cautioned against guilty Cautioned against guilty

Sexual offences Act 2003 Section 5 Rape of a child 25 300 134 23 317 179 14 444 180 under 13 Section 6 Assault of a child by 7 130 75 9 166 88 24 190 89 penetration under 13 Section 7 Sexual Assault of a 135 582 344 115 522 355 94 876 321 child under 13 Section 8 Causing or inciting 30 101 68 22 106 80 14 138 77 child under 13 to engage in sexual activity Section 9 Sexual Activity with a 299 682 592 267 720 641 255 944 678 child Section 10 Causing or inciting 49 142 86 67 179 99 64 205 108 child to engage in sexual activity Section 11 Engaging in a sexual 16 77 59 9 65 63 10 78 63 activity in the presence of a child Section 12 Causing a child to 13 23 17 11 20 21 13 18 18 watch a sexual act Section 14 Arranging or 4 32 18 4 19 15 2 25 17 Facilitating a child sexual offence Section 47 Paying for the sexual 173—33235 services of a child Section 48 Causing or inciting — 2 4 — 13 7 2 12 8 child prostitution or pornography Section 49 Controlling a child 1211—1—11 prostitute or a child involved in pornography Section 50 Arranging or ——1——2— 61 facilitating child prostitution or pornography

Child Abduction Act 1984 Section 2 Offence of abduction of 17 99 52 10 87 48 9 116 50 child by other persons

Children Act 1989 Section 49 Abduction of children 12 25 13 15 41 26 9 44 27 in care and inducing, inciting or assisting a child to run away 1 The cautions statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When an offender has been cautioned for two or more offences at the same time, the principal offence is the more serious offence From 1 June 2000, the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force nationally and removed the use of cautions for persons under 18 and replaced them with reprimands and warnings. These figures have been included in the totals. 2 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences, it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 4 The number of defendants found guilty in a particular year may exceed the number proceeded against as the proceedings in the magistrates court took place in an earlier year and the defendants were found guilty at the Crown court in the following year; or the defendants were found guilty of a different offence to that for which they were originally proceeded against. 5 The Sexual Offences Act 2003 came into force on 1 May 2004. 6 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services: Ministry of Justice. 897W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 898W

Police and Crime Commissioners West Midlands Police: Manpower

Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Home Department when she plans to publish the for the Home Department (1) how many police constables responses to her Department’s consultation on West Midlands Police employed in each of the last three proposals for elected police and crime commissioners. years for which figures are available; [57498] [63096] (2) how many police officers were assigned to duties in Coventry in the latest period for which figures are Mrs May: The ‘Policing in the 21st century: reconnecting available; and how many such officers she expects to be police and the people Summary of consultation responses assigned to such duties in (a) 2011-12 and (b) and next steps’ was published in December 2010. A 2012-13. [57499] copy is in the Library of the House. Nick Herbert: The available figures show the number Police: Incentives of police constables in West Midlands police force in 2008, 2009 and 2010 as at 31 March (full-time equivalent figures). The second table shows police officer strength Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for the in the following basic command units which Coventry Home Department what information her Department covers: West Midlands M1, West Midlands M2 and holds on whether bonuses have been (a) offered to and West Midlands M3 as at 31 March 2010 (full-time (b) accepted by senior police officers in Lancashire equivalents). constabulary in each of the last two years. [62666] Decisions around the size and deployment of the police workforce are a matter for chief constables to Nick Herbert [holding answer 28 June 2011]: The take locally in conjunction with their police authority offer and payment of bonuses to chief officers is a and, from May 2012, their Police and Crime Commissioner; matter for the police authority, working within the therefore estimates for the number of police officers for agreed national framework. The Home Office does not 2011-12 and 2012-13 are not available centrally. gather information from police authorities on bonuses. Police constable strength for 2008, 2009 and 2010 as at 31 March for However, figures for bonuses paid to Lancashire’s West Midlands police force chief officer team are shown in the force’s accounts Full-time equivalents1 which are published on the police authority website. Police constables in West Midlands police Sexual Offences: Yorkshire 2008 6,816 2009 7,002 Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2010 6,960 Home Department if she will support the creation of a 1 This table contains full-time equivalent figures that have been sexual assault and rape centre for North Yorkshire and rounded to the nearest whole number. York; and if she will make a statement. [62596] Police officer strength by basic command unit, 31 March 2010 for West Midlands police force1 Lynne Featherstone: The Home Office provided North Full-time equivalents Yorkshire Police with a grant of £75,000 in December Police Force BCU Police officers 2010 to develop a Sexual Assault Referral Centre. The West Midlands West Midlands M1 309 Department of Health provided a further £30,000. Sexual West Midlands M2 252 Assault Referral Centres are partnerships between police authorities and NHS primary care trusts. They are local West Midlands M3 265 partnerships and local areas are best placed to decide 1 These figures are based on full-time equivalents that have been what level of service they require and what model is best rounded to the nearest whole number. Note: to deliver that. Figures include those officers on career breaks. The Government are committed to tackling sexual offences and as part of our Violence against Women West Midlands Police: Overtime strategy we are providing £28 million directly to specialist services over the next four years. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many overtime hours were paid to (a) warranted officers and (b) civilian Stalking staff of West Midlands police in each of the last three years; and what the total cost to the public purse was of John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for such overtime in each such year. [57497] the Home Department whether she has any plans to bring forward legislative proposals to create an offence Nick Herbert: The Home Office does not hold of stalking. [63056] information on the number of overtime hours paid to warranted officers and civilian staff in West Midlands Lynne Featherstone: Stalking behaviour can be prosecuted police. under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997. My For data on the total cost of overtime to West Midlands Department, working with the Ministry of Justice, the police for each of the last three years, I would refer the Crown Prosecution Service and the Association of Chief hon. Gentleman to the answer given to my hon. Friend Police Officers (ACPO) continue to keep the effectiveness the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) on 25 October of this legislation under review. 2010, Official Report, columns 79-84W. 899W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 900W

JUSTICE Judges: Housing

Courts: CCTV Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice pursuant to the answer of 10 June 2011, Official Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Report, column 512W, what the cost to the public purse Justice what his policy is on the provision of closed was of judges’ lodgings in each location in 2009-10. [62968] circuit television in courts. [62916] Mr Kenneth Clarke: The following table shows the Mr Djanogly: It is the policy of Her Majesty’s Courts cost of judges’ lodgings in each location for 2009-10. and Tribunals Service to seek to provide closed circuit television in courts for the safety of court users, employees Location Cost (£) and judicial office holders and operated in accordance with the Data Protection Act 1998 and the Information Birmingham 494,600 Commissioner’s code of practice for closed circuit television. Bristol 210,800 Where it is not possible to install closed circuit television Caernarfon 13,600 in a given court, or in particular areas of the court, then Cambridge 18,700 an appropriate risk assessment must be undertaken at Cardiff 255,200 the location to ensure effective measures are in place to Carlisle 15,900 provide a secure environment for all court users. Chelmsford 197,800 Chester 231,900 Data Protection Act 1998 Exeter 44,600 Hull 37,800 Leeds 433,400 Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Leicester 27,200 what assessment he has made of the level of compliance with the provisions of the Data Protection Lewes 49,100 Act 1998 by insurance companies and others providing Lincoln 3,900 details of claims to claims management companies. Liverpool 276,400 [62953] Maidstone 101,100 Manchester 314,800 Mr Djanogly: The Information Commissioner’s Office Northampton 650,000 (ICO) is the independent body responsible for regulating Norwich 146,600 the Data Protection Act 1998. Nottingham 231,800 Oxford 12,600 It would not be appropriate for the Government to Plawsworth (Chester le Street) 340,000 comment on the ICO’s investigations in individual cases. However, I understand that it is the ICO position that if Plymouth 22,400 insurance companies were selling personal data to claims Preston 249,000 management companies without clearly informing the Reading 85,300 individuals concerned, this would breach the first data Sheffield 265,200 protection principle and therefore be in breach of the St Albans 226,800 Act. The ICO is discussing with the Association of Stafford 17,400 British Insurers the industry’s practice in relation to Swansea 188,700 referral fees. Truro 74,800 The ICO is also currently investigating complaints Warwick 6,600 concerning spam text messages about accidents under Winchester 240,700 the Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulations Woolwich 45,500 (PECR). Worcester 32,600 Total 4.9 million Departmental Legal Costs Legal Aid

Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Justice pursuant to the answer of 10 June 2011, Official what information his Department holds on the (a) Report, columns 511-12W, on departmental legal costs, absolute cost and (b) cost per head of population of if he will place in the Library a copy of the submission legal aid systems in other countries. [63097] made by HM Revenue and Customs to his Department’s consultation on reform of civil litigation funding and Mr Djanogly: The research report “International costs. [63092] Comparison of publicly funded legal services and justice systems”provides robust comparisons of legal aid spending Mr Djanogly: As indicated in my answer of 10 June in England and Wales and a selection of European and 2011, Official Report, columns 511-12W, discussions non-European countries, as well as an assessment of are continuing with officials in HM Revenue and Customs the difficulties of international comparisons in this on the impact of civil litigation funding and costs area. It is published on the Ministry of Justice website reform on insolvency litigation. I believe that disclosure at: of internal papers could prejudice these discussions. http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/docs/comparison- Therefore I am minded not to publish HMRC’s submission. public-fund-legal-services-justice-systems.pdf 901W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 902W

In addition, the European Commission for the Efficiency CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT of Justice (CEPEJ) publishes reports on “European judicial systems: Efficiency and quality of justice” which Architecture: Finance are updated every two years. These reports contain a range of information on judicial systems, including Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for legal aid, for a broad selection of European countries. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) how much The latest report is available at: grant in aid funding his Department allocated to http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/cooperation/cepej/evaluation/ architecture in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) 2011-12; default_en.asp [62135] (2) how much grant in aid funding his Department Offenders: Training allocated to the funding of design in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) 2011-12; [62110] Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) with reference to his Department’s Green Paper, Mr Jeremy Hunt: My Department gave grant in aid Breaking the Cycle: Effective Punishment, Rehabilitation to the Commission for Architecture and the Built and Sentencing of Offenders, page 56, paragraph 193, Environment (CABE) for the promotion of education what progress his Department has made in creating a or high standards in, and appreciation of architecture new test to focus indefinite imprisonment under and the design of the built environment. The amount indeterminate sentences for public protection on those CABE received from 2009 to 2012 (excluding the Sea who clearly pose a very serious risk of future harm; Change Grant programme) is in the following table: [59917] (2) with reference to his Department’s Green Paper, £000 Breaking the Cycle: Effective Punishment, Rehabilitation and Sentencing of Offenders, which crimes will no 2009-10 4,789 longer be eligible for indeterminate sentences for public 2010-11 4,690 2011-12 3,523 protection as a result of his proposed changes. [59918] The grant in aid in 2011-12 is primarily for CABE’s Mr Kenneth Clarke: We will be conducting an urgent costs of closure. review of sentencing for serious sexual and violent offenders, with a view to replacing the current IPP Arts Council England allocates grant in aid to its regime with a determinate sentencing framework—which regularly funded organisations through the sub-art form would be better understood by the public, and command classifier ’Architecture/landscape/environmental art’ and greater confidence. The review will also cover Detention the 2009-12 figures are in the following table: for Public Protection, the equivalent sentence to an IPP for juveniles. £ 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

Personal Injury: Applications Architecture Centre Network 122,489 125,167 116,530 Kielder Partnership 40,185 41,064 38,230 Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Made 34,241 34,989 32,575 what his policy is on the implementation of the Northern Architecture 44,652 44,429 41,363 recommendation of Lord Justice Jackson on payments The Architecture Foundation 114,610 114,037 106,168 of referral fees for personal injury claims. [62952] The Bristol Centre for the 55,677 56,894 52,968 Advancement of Architecture Ltd Mr Djanogly: I will provide the hon. Member with a Total 411,854 416,580 387,834 response as soon as possible. Design does not receive grant in aid from my Prison Service: Contracts Department. Commercialisation and Sexualisation of Childhood Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice which prisons his Department is considering for market testing; and if he will make a statement. [63036] Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions Mr Blunt: I will provide the hon. Member with a he has had with Ofcom on the recommendations of the reply as soon as possible. Bailey Review of the Commercialisation and Sexualisation of Childhood. [62051] Risk Assessment Mr Jeremy Hunt: I have had no discussions. However, Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for my Department will continue to work closely with the Justice whether a risk assessment was undertaken as Department for Education in relation to the part of the transfer of HMP Birmingham to G4S. recommendations of the Bailey Review, including those [62853] relevant to Ofcom.

Mr Blunt: The National Offender Management Service Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for has undertaken an ongoing and thorough assessment of Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions risk regarding the competition and mobilisation of HMP he has had with the Secretary of State for Education on Birmingham. The risk management process in place is the recommendations of the Bailey review on the compliant with departmental and governmental best Commercialisation and Sexualisation of Childhood. practice. [62170] 903W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 904W

Mr Jeremy Hunt: While I have had no specific discussions, Hugh Robertson: I commissioned a report by the the ministerial statement made by the Minister of State Sport and Recreation Alliance on reducing bureaucracy for Children and Families, the hon. Member for Brent in sports. The recommendations are being considered Central (Sarah Teather), on 7 June 2011, Official Report, and officials have had discussions with HM Revenue column 8WS, made clear the Government’s position. and Customs (HMRC). However, VAT policy is a matter Furthermore, my officials have been liaising closely for HMRC. with the Department for Education with regard to the Government’s proposals to monitor the implementation of the Bailey review’s recommendations. TREASURY Film Arch Cru

Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Tristram Hunt: To ask the Chancellor of the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport which body is Exchequer if he will consider the merits of initiating an responsible for allocation of the Film Innovation investigation into the role of Capita Financial Group Fund; and when the funding will be disbursed. [63099] in relation to the collapse of Arch Cru Funds. [62673]

Mr Jeremy Hunt: All lottery film funding, including Mr Hoban: The Financial Services Authority (FSA) funding for innovation, is now the responsibility of the is responsible for the regulation of financial services British Film Institute (BFI). The role of innovation in firms and operates independently from Government supporting British film is being considered as part of under the powers given to it in the Financial Services the current Film Policy Review. and Markets Act 2000. HM Treasury sets the legal framework for the regulation of financial services, but does not have investigative or prosecuting powers of its Ofcom own. On 21 June 2011, the FSA announced a £54 million Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for package for investors in Arch Cru funds. Established Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport pursuant to the voluntarily by Capita Financial Managers Limited, BNY answer of 7 June 2011, Official Report, column 136W, Mellon Trust and Depositary UK Limited and HSBC on Ofcom, when he plans to publish Ofcom’s report on Bank plc, this package will be used to make payments the workability of sections 17 and 18 of the Digital to eligible investors in Arch Cru funds, and will assist Economy Act 2010. [62134] the return of a substantial part of their investment to them. Capita Financial Managers has committed to Mr Jeremy Hunt: As I informed the hon. Member on contact investors with further information before the 7 June 2011, Official Report, column 136W, we have end of August. received the report on the workability of sections 17 and 18 of the Digital Economy Act, and will publish it Aviation: Pollution Control in due course. We need to give it proper consideration before responding. Adam Afriyie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what fiscal steps his Department is taking to Sports: Betting incentivise the aviation industry to (a) reduce aircraft noise, (b) reduce carbon dioxide emissions and (c) Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for improve its economic competitiveness. [62622] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when his Department plans to implement the outcome of its investigation Justine Greening: Aviation will join the EU emission into using cash in dormant betting accounts to set up a trading system from January 2012. The aviation sector capital fund to improve local sports facilities and support in the UK will thus begin to take greater responsibility sports clubs. [63098] for its carbon emissions and impact on the global environment. Mr Jeremy Hunt: The right hon. Member for Bath The Government also undertook a consultation on (Mr Foster) has completed his review of whether money the UK’s air passenger duty from 23 March to 17 June lying in dormant betting accounts and from unclaimed 2011. The Government will consider the views and winnings could be used to improve sports facilities and evidence submitted by interested parties and will publish delivered his report to the Government in December a summary of responses in the autumn. 2010. The Minister for Tourism and Heritage, my hon. Banks: Finance Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose), is considering the report in detail and will decide on the Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer next steps after the Government have reached a conclusion what his policy is on the distribution to the public of on the regulatory future of remote gambling. shares in banks in which UK Financial Investments manages the stake owned by the Government. [62641] Sports: VAT Mr Hoban: UK Financial Investments (UKFI) manages Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for the Government’s shareholding in financial institutions Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will provide at an arm’s length and commercial basis. UKFI’s objective assistance to sport clubs and teams adversely affected is to dispose of the investments in an orderly and active by the treatment for VAT purposes by HM Revenue manner, within the context of an overarching objective and Customs of sports league block bookings. [63038] of protecting and creating value for the taxpayer. 905W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 906W

UKFI will look at the full range of alternatives for This includes UK banking groups’ direct exposures, divestment, and will make recommendations based on as well as credit default swaps and other derivatives market conditions, on an assessment of investor demand, exposures. and on value for money considerations at the time when considering a transaction. Working Families Tax Credit

Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Chancellor of the he will estimate the cost to his Department of (a) Exchequer how many couples in receipt of working distributing to the public shares in banks in which UK families tax credit made a claim based on working Financial Investments manages the stake owned by the between 16 and 24 hours a week in the latest period for Government and (b) continuing to manage the which figures are available. [61346] Government’s stake in such banks through UK Financial Investments. [62642] Mr Gauke: The latest information on hours worked Mr Hoban: UK Financial Investments (UKFI) has by claimants of tax credits is available in the HMRC snapshot publication ″Child and Working Tax Credits been set up to manage the Government’s shareholding ″ in financial institutions. UKFI’s objective is to dispose statistics April 2011 . This can be found at: of the investments in an orderly and active manner, http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc- within the context of an overarching objective of protecting apr11.pdf and creating value for the taxpayer. As of April 2011, there were approximately 280,000 The Treasury and UKFI are continuing to assess all couples in receipt of tax credits where the main worker potential options to realise value for taxpayers through worked between 16 and 24 hours per week. the disposal of these shares, and will explore the distribution of shares to the public alongside ongoing preparations for other disposal options. NORTHERN IRELAND Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any HM Treasury officials are working Departmental Carbon Emissions exclusively on the proposal that people on the electoral role may be given shares in the Royal Bank of Scotland Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State and Lloyds Banking Group. [63039] for Northern Ireland whether his Department has any plans to generate low-carbon energy from its estate. Mr Hoban: UK Financial Investments (UKFI) manages [63252] the Government’s shareholding in Lloyds Banking Group and the Royal Bank of Scotland. UKFI’s objective is to Mr Paterson: The Northern Ireland Office has no dispose of the investments in an orderly and active plans to generate low-carbon energy. manner, within the context of an overarching objective The Department has, however, taken a number of of protecting and creating value for the taxpayer. steps to reduce its carbon footprint. These include The Treasury and UKFI are continuing to assess all reducing the need for travel between London and Belfast potential options to realise value for taxpayers through through the use of video conferencing facilities, introducing the disposal of these shares, and will explore the distribution a biomass heating system for Hillsborough castle and of shares to the public alongside ongoing preparations installation of solar panels for water heating at Hillsborough for other disposal options. castle. Economic Situation: Greece Departmental Official Cars John Mann: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the potential effects of Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for a Greek non-credit event debt renegotiation on (a) UK Northern Ireland what the cost to his Department was Financial Investments, (b) the UK financial services of the provision of ministerial cars in each financial sector and (c) the credit default swap market. [62767] year between 2000-01 and 2010-11; how many (a) cars for the exclusive use of Ministers and (b) ministerial Mr Hoban: The UK authorities carry out assessments car journeys were paid for by his Department in each on a wide range of risks. The Bank of England’s such year; what the average cost to his Department of a Financial Stability Report sets out the impact of key ministerial car journey was in each such year; and what risks on UK Financial Stability. steps his Department has taken to reduce the cost of UK Financial Investments (UKFI) continually reviews ministerial cars since his appointment. [62999] its strategy on the management of the Government investee banks. UKFI looks at the full range of alternatives Mr Paterson: Information on the cost and number of for the investments, and makes its recommendations ministerial cars is published in the annual written ministerial based on market conditions, an assessment of investor statement, details of which can be found within the demand and on value for money considerations. Libraries of both Houses: Data on external claims of UK-owned monetary 2005-06: financial institutions, and of their branches and subsidiaries http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/ abroad, are available on the Bank of England website cmhansrd/cm070726/wmstext/70726m0004.htm at: 2006-07: http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/statistics/Bankstats/2011/ http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/ Jun/TabC4.2.xls cmhansrd/cm070726/wmstext/70726m0004.htm 907W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 908W

2007-08: Natural Gas http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/ cmhansrd/cm080722/wmstext/80722m0008.htm Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09: Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/ made of the potential effects of shale gas extraction in cmhansrd/cm090716/wmstext/90716m0009.htm the UK on (a) the amount of renewable electricity 2009-10: generated in the UK, (b) achieving domestic emissions http://www.dft.gov.uk/press/speechesstatements/statements/ targets and (c) levels of energy security; and if he will hammond20101028a make a statement. [62813] Details of the cost for 2010-11 are being compiled and due for release in July 2011. Charles Hendry: In the UK, shale gas has not yet been commercially proven. Analysis of the potential Information prior to 2005 is not available and would effects of extraction on development of renewable energy be obtained only at disproportionate cost. in the UK, domestic emissions targets and UK energy Information relating to individual ministerial car journeys security would in the circumstances be subject to large prior to September 2010 is not available as there was no uncertainties, so any such assessment would be speculative. requirement to collect this data. Information relating to the number of ministerial car Oil: Reserves journeys made since the introduction of the ‘on-demand’ Ministerial Car Service on 6 September 2010 and up Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for until 31 March 2011 is shown in the following table. Energy and Climate Change how many barrels of oil the UK sold from its emergency oil reserves in June Number 2011. [62831] September 2010 8 October 2010 23 Charles Hendry: The UK Government do not have November 2010 43 emergency oil reserves as such. Instead the UK obligates December 2010 29 oil importers and refiners to hold oil stocks that can be January 2011 27 supplied to market to compensate for supply shortages February 2011 29 under powers in the 1976 Energy Act. In the event of a March 2011 40 supply disruption, obligations on individual oil companies Total 199 are lowered so that they can make these stocks available to the market. Devolution In response to the International Energy Agency’s call for collective release of 60 million barrels, the UK has lowered the compulsory stocking obligations on oil Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for companies by two and a half days to release around 3 Northern Ireland what recent discussions he has had million barrels over an initial period of 30 days from 25 with the (a) Northern Ireland Executive and (b) June 2011. Prime Minister on the devolution of further powers to the Northern Ireland Assembly. [62759] Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paterson: I have had no recent discussions with Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has either the Northern Ireland Executive or the Prime made of the implications for his Department’s policies Minister on the devolution of further powers to the of the recent decision by members of the International Northern Ireland Assembly. We will consider any requests Energy Agency to release oil reserves for sale. [62832] for further devolution that have widespread support in Northern Ireland. Charles Hendry: On June 23 the UK joined its partners in the International Energy Agency (IEA) in releasing oil stocks to the market. A total of 60 million barrels of oil was made available to the market over 30 days, with ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE the UK contributing some 3 million barrels. Energy: Meters The IEA assessed that unrest in Libya has removed 132 million barrels of light, sweet crude from the market Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy by the end of May, and that normal seasonal increase in and Climate Change when he expects the framework for refiner demand expected for this summer will exacerbate the procurement of the first generation of communication the shortfall further. Greater tightness in the oil market and data service contracts to be developed. [62231] could threaten to undermine the global economic recovery. Charles Hendry: The strategy for the procurement of The IEA collective action is intended to complement first-generation DCC service providers is currently being increases in output already announced by producer prepared by officials in DECC, with input from stakeholders countries such as Saudi Arabia. It will help to bridge as well as Infrastructure UK, who have expertise in the gap until sufficient additional oil from them reaches large-scale public sector procurement. We intend to global markets. complete the strategy and begin the procurement process In conjunction with the IEA, the UK will be participating as soon as practicable. We will set out further details of in monitoring the volumes of stock released, both the process and the timetable for the procurement process domestically and internationally. Oil stocks are expected when we are in a position to do so. to begin to be released to the market from early July. 909W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 910W

River Severn: Tidal Power Measures to reduce the costs of benefits processing will include, for example, shifting from paper to digital Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy based services, sharing information more efficiently within and Climate Change what recent discussions he has and between Departments as well as action to tackle had with (a) the Secretary of State for Wales and (b) fraud and error. the First Minister of the Welsh Government on his The Department’s structural reform priorities over Department’s feasibility report on tidal energy systems the spending review period are set out in the business in the Severn estuary; and if he will make a statement. plan. [62002] Efficiency Savings Charles Hendry: DECC Ministers and officials have regular discussions with their counterparts in Wales on Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work a range of issues, including tidal energy in the Severn and Pensions (1) what plans he has for efficiency estuary. savings in his Department over the next three years; and what estimate he has made of the savings which will accrue from each measure; [63094] CHURCH COMMISSIONERS (2) what estimate he has made of the number of staff Civil Partnerships in each business unit of his Department who will be (a) made compulsorily redundant, (b) offered early 2. Mr Bradshaw: To ask the hon. Member for Banbury, retirement and (c) offered voluntary redundancy in representing the Church Commissioners, where the each of the next three years. [63095] authority to permit the registration of civil partnerships in churches will reside following the enactment of the Chris Grayling: The Department plans to realise Government’s legislative proposals. [62904] substantial efficiency savings over the period of the Tony Baldry: The Church of England response to the spending review through measures which will deliver Government’s consultation document was submitted both savings and improved customer service, as well as on 23 June and endorsed the denominational opting-in focussing its resources on key reforms of the welfare mechanism that the Government had proposed. It said system. that in the case of the Church of England that would These plans include a reduction in the size of the mean that churches could not become approved premises corporate centre by up to 40%, primarily driven by an for the registration of civil partnerships until and unless organisational redesign and reductions in contractual the General Synod had first decided as a matter of spend, for example on estates and IT. There are parallel policy that that would be possible. measures to reduce the costs of benefits processing by 25% through streamlining and modernising frontline activities. These measures include, for example, shifting WORK AND PENSIONS from paper to digital based services and sharing information more efficiently within and between Departments. Specific Departmental Assets actions to improve the efficiency, ease and speed of the Department’s frontline activities are included in the Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Business Plan. and Pensions whether receipts from the sale of assets These plans may lead to offers of voluntary exit or owned by regional development agencies are reflected voluntary redundancy or if absolutely necessary, in the spending plans of his Department for (a) compulsory redundancy at some stage over the next 2012-13 and (b) 2013-14. [47411] three years. However at present there are no specific Chris Grayling: Ministerial responsibility for Regional estimates of numbers as these are dependent on various Development Agencies lies with other Government factors, particularly the potential for redeployment of Departments. This Department is not expecting any staff in light of future new work relating to the introduction receipts from the sale of assets owned by these agencies of universal credit. and has therefore not taken account of such receipts in Employment its spending plans for 2012-13 and 2013-14. Departmental Responsibilities Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many adults not in receipt of Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for jobseeker’s allowance or employment and support Work and Pensions whether his Department plans to allowance and in receipt of an inactive benefit, entered cease to fund any of its functions over the period of the employment in the last 12 months after a period of comprehensive spending review. [55181] joblessness; and if he will make a statement. [58012] Chris Grayling: The Department will continue to provide its core functions and deliver services to millions Chris Grayling: The information requested is not of customers over the period of the spending review. available. However, the challenging financial settlement for this Claimants leaving benefits are not required to inform period means that services and functions will need to be the Department of their destinations and hence the provided more efficiently. The Department will reduce information that is collected is incomplete. the size of its corporate centre by 40% and plans to DWP analysts have been investigating the scope for realise savings of 25% through streamlining and producing regular statistics on benefit destinations, as modernising its frontline activities. well as improving consistency of use of this data across 911W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 912W the analytical community. The destinations statistics Social Security Benefits: Mental Health have not been used in the public domain before, mainly because of gaps in coverage and so are considered not Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work robust enough for external use. and Pensions whether he has asked Professor Malcolm Harrington to consider the effects of debt and debt Employment Schemes: Hearing Impairment enforcement on the mental health of benefit claimants and its effect on their capability to work as part of his Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work review of the work capability assessment; and if he will and Pensions what representations he has received from make a statement. [63190] disability organisations on the consideration given to deaf people as part of the proposed Work Programme. Chris Grayling: Professor Harrington’s scope is to [52134] review the fairness and effectiveness of the work capability assessment (WCA). He has not specifically been asked Chris Grayling: During the design and tendering stages to consider the effects of debt, particularly on the wider of the Work Programme, DWP received a number of benefit claimant population. representations from a wide range of providers and Universal Credit customer representative groups. The Department responds to these individually and does not record them by Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work category of disability. and Pensions what options he is considering for support of childcare costs through the proposed universal credit; Pensioners: Poverty and if he will make a statement. [62439]

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Chris Grayling: We have announced that support for and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 23 May 2011, child care costs will be provided in universal credit by Official Report, columns 495-6W,on pensioners: poverty, an additional element, and that we aim to extend support whether his Department has previously made any to those working fewer than 16 hours. We are still assessment of future trends in pensioner poverty. considering what rates to set. [61663] We recently held productive discussions with MPs, peers and stakeholder groups during the Commons Steve Webb: In recent years, the Department has not Committee stage of the Welfare Reform Bill. We are published assessments of future trends in pensioner considering the advice and suggestions raised in those poverty. At various times, some internal analysis of and have already promised to return to House with possible pensioner poverty trends has been produced as more information when it is ready, and expect to do this part of advice given to Ministers for the purpose of in time for discussion and scrutiny of the Bill in the Government policy formulation. House of Lords. At the moment, macroeconomic uncertainty and the Department’s significant programme of welfare and pension reform mean that it is not possible to produce ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS any reliable estimate of future trends in pensioner poverty. Government Food Procurement

Social Fund 15. Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and she has made in developing Government buying Pensions how many people made more than (a) three standards for food procurement. [62891] and (b) 10 applications to the social fund in the most recent year for which figures are available; and if he will Richard Benyon: The Minister of State, Department make a statement. [62506] for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire Steve Webb: The information requested is provided (Mr Paice), announced earlier this month that for the as follows. first time, the Government had introduced Government buying standards for food and catering services. 2009-10 in Great Britain Number of people More sustainable food sourcing, healthier food choices, Making more than three applications 492,660 and resource efficiency and waste reduction are all to the discretionary social fund covered in these standards. Making more than 10 applications to 57,700 The Government are leading by example on sustainable the discretionary social fund food. GBS are mandatory for central Government Notes: 1. ’Applications to the social fund’ has been interpreted as applications to the Departments and they will be promoted to the wider discretionary social fund as people make a claim rather than an application to public sector. the regulated social fund. 2. The discretionary social fund refers to applications made for crisis loans, Sewerage budgeting loans and community care grants. Applications referred to above can be to any of these three parts of the discretionary social fund in any combination. 16. Mark Pawsey: To ask the Secretary of State for 3. Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her 4. The number of people making more than 10 applications is included in the Department is taking to implement the adoption of number of people making more than three applications. Source: private drains and sewers by local water companies. Scan of social fund computer system [62892] 913W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 914W

Richard Benyon: I am pleased to say that the transfer purse of redundancies in its non-departmental bodies of private sewers and lateral drains to the statutory (a) in 2011-12 and (b) over the comprehensive spending sewerage undertakers in England will take place on 1 review period. [61721] October this year. Regulations to provide for the transfer, involving those sewers and drains that connect to the Richard Benyon [holding answer 23 June 2011]: For public sewerage system, will take effect on 1 July and 2011-12 NDPBs have estimated exit costs of approximately the undertakers will then start the formal notification £30 million. Detailed information is not yet available process. Private sewer owners need take no action to for the remainder of the spending review. make the transfer happen. Food: Prices Conditions of Employment Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent taking in response to recent trends in food prices. discussions she has had with (a) officials in her Department, [62882] (b) the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and (c) outside organisations on the potential Mrs Spelman: The Foresight Report to the Government’s effects of changes arising from the review of employment Chief Scientific Adviser on Food and Farming Futures law on matters within her Department’s responsibilities. highlighted the need for transparency in global food [60707] markets and liberalisation of international trade to address price volatility. Richard Benyon: The review of employment-related The Government are committed to promoting better laws being co-ordinated by the Department for Business, functioning of agricultural markets to help mitigate Innovation and Skills is a cross-Government initiative. future price spikes. All Departments with a responsibility for employment- Last week I attended the G20 Agriculture Ministers’ related law are engaged in the process, and relevant meeting where we agreed measures to increase production Ministers and officials are in contact with BIS on a and provide the market with better information about regular basis in taking forward the review. supply and demand. Departments are engaging with their stakeholders on I wish to see further liberalisation of international issues relating to the employment law review in accordance trade which, as the Foresight project states, will help with their standard procedures for consulting formally dampen price volatility. and informally on policy development. Departmental Buildings Local Government Finance

Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the address Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much each is of each office property occupied by her Department local authority received from each (a) revenue and (b) outside Greater London which it (a) owns and (b) capital funding stream from her Department in (i) rents; what the level of utilisation is of each such 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; how much funding her property; what the capital value is of each such property Department allocated from each such stream in each it owns; and what the (i) annual rental cost and (ii) year; and what the change was in the level of funding in length of lease agreement is of each rented property. each such stream between those years in (A) cash and [49258] [61177] (B) real terms.

Richard Benyon: I have deposited the information Richard Benyon: Details of the revenue and capital requested in the House Library. grants paid by this Department direct to local authorities in 2010-11 and the amounts that have been allocated to Departmental Manpower local authorities so far in 2011-12 have been placed in the House Libraries. Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Offshore Industry: Arctic Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will make it her policy to publish monthly information on changes in the numbers of employees of her Department’s agencies, Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for categorised by (a) seniority, (b) voluntary redundancy, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy (c) natural wastage and (d) involuntary redundancy. is on the securing of an agreement at global level on a [61710] moratorium on drilling for oil or gas in the Arctic Circle. [62740] Richard Benyon: I refer the right hon. Member to the reply I gave him on 7 June 2011, Official Report, columns Charles Hendry: I have been asked to reply. 63-64W. Well-supplied oil and gas markets from a diverse range of suppliers are an important foundation for Departmental Redundancy global growth and for the UK’s prosperity. It is the sovereign right of every nation to decide whether to Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for produce resources within its jurisdiction, and we would Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent estimate not press for any agreement to limit this on a geographical her Department has made of the cost to the public basis. We would expect all oil and gas drilling, wherever 915W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 916W carried out, to be properly regulated and licensed and she plans to take to encourage the rest of the public carried out in a safe and environmentally responsible sector to comply with Government Buying Standards manner. for food and catering services. [62685] Oil Mr Paice: With the Government Buying Standards we are setting a credible and workable example of Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for sustainable food procurement that all public sector Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans her bodies can follow. Department has to address the challenges posed by We are working with major local authority buying peak oil. [60097] organisations in the PR05 group to encourage the voluntary inclusion of Government Buying Standards into national Richard Benyon: The Government are working food and catering procurement, which will enable public domestically and internationally to help investment and sector bodies to achieve cost savings without compromising price stability in the oil sector. In addition, the Department on quality or sustainability. works closely with the Department for Energy and Climate Change on climate change and energy efficiency In addition, DEFRA is developing training for catering policies which will reduce both the UK’s carbon emissions managers and procurers in the public sector on efficient and help to ease our demand for oil. Additional areas and sustainable food procurement based around the where my Department is working to address challenges Government Buying Standards and using examples of imposed by peak oil are outlined as follows. best practice from around the country. Rural Communities We believe that local people are best placed to decide what is best in their communities, therefore we have We are working closely with DECC to ensure that published guidance for buyers alongside the Standards. Government policy benefits rural communities, including initiatives aimed at addressing fuel poverty, improving household energy efficiency and encouraging better take up of renewable energy options. We are also working EDUCATION with the Office of Fair Trading as it undertakes its review of the off-grid energy market, as a significant Adoption proportion of rural households are off the gas grid and rely on heating oil and other relatively expensive forms Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for of heating fuel. Education how many placement orders have ended British Farming before adoption has been granted by (a) age, (b) Under the Rural Development Programme for England, ethnicity and (c) gender of the child placed in each the Government can support actions by farmers to year since 2004-05. [62305] improve their resource efficiency, for example, by encouraging the adoption of new technologies and Tim Loughton [holding answer 27 June 2011]: The supporting innovative practices in their use of resources number of children whose placement orders ended before derived from oil. an adoption order was granted, broken down by age, ethnicity and gender is shown in the following table. Public Sector: Food The number of children who ceased to be looked after while subject to a placement order other than those who Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for were adopted, broken down by age, ethnicity and gender Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the is also shown in the table. Placement orders were introduced written ministerial statement of 16 June 2011, Official in December 2005; therefore the first full year for which Report, columns 77-79WS, on food and catering this information is available is the year ending 31 March services (Government Buying Standards), what steps 2007.

Children looked after whoso placement order ceased before an adoption order was granted during the year ending 31 March, by age, ethnicity and gender1, 2. Years ending 31 March 2007 to 2010. Coverage: England Number 20073 2008 2009 2010

Children whose placement order ceased and continued to be 10 40 60 80 looked after under a different legal status

Age when placement order ceased (years) Under 1 10 5— 5— 5— 1to4 5—101030 5to9 0104030 10 to 15 5—101010 16 and over 0 5—0 0

Ethnic origin

White 10 30 50 60 Mixed 5— 5— 5—10 Asian 005— 5— 917W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 918W

Children looked after whoso placement order ceased before an adoption order was granted during the year ending 31 March, by age, ethnicity and gender1, 2. Years ending 31 March 2007 to 2010. Coverage: England Number 20073 2008 2009 2010

Black 005— 5— Other 000 5—

Gender Male 5—204050 Female 10 20 30 30

Children who ceased to be looked after while subject to a 10 20 40 20 placement order, other than those who were adopted4

Age on ceasing (years) Under 1 5— 5— 5—0 1to4 5—103010 5to9 5— 5—1010 10 to 15 5— 5— 5— 5— 16 and over 5— 5— 5— 5—

Ethnic origin White 5—104020 Mixed 5— 5— 5— 5— Asian 000 0 Black 5—010 5— Other 000 0

Gender Male 5—102010 Female 5—102010 1 Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. 2 Figures exclude children looked after under an agreed series of short-term placements. 3 Figures are low in 2007 as placement orders were introduced in December 2005 and the first full year for which the information is available is year ending 31 March 2007. 4 This includes children who ceased to be looked after for the following reasons: died, care taken over by another local authority in the UK, returned hometolivewith parents, residence order granted, special guardianship order granted, moved into independent living arrangement or ceased to be looked after for any other unspecified reason. 5 Figures not shown in order to protect confidentiality. Source: SSDA 903

Children: Protection Tim Loughton [holding answer 28 June 2011]: In light of the proposed changes to the Vetting and Barring Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for Scheme and Criminal Records regime, and subject to Education if he will assess the effect on child protection the passage of the Protection of Freedoms Bill, the services in Bolton metropolitan borough of reductions Government will be revisiting the current guidance on to local authority budgets. [60940] recruitment in schools. This will include reviewing the Sarah Teather: It is for local authorities to determine guidance on use of agency and other temporary workers. the allocation of their resources and I am sure that in My Department is giving careful consideration to the doing so they will be taking into account both their issues, including the suggestion that schools and colleagues statutory responsibilities and the needs of the most should be provided with direct evidence that checks vulnerable children and young people. The Department have been carried out. In our considerations, we will be for Education has not made its own assessment, but I mindful of the importance of avoiding unnecessary am aware of the research that has been carried out by bureaucracy for schools and the recruitment industry. other organisations. I am pleased that this research suggests that in making difficult decisions, most local Education: Arts authorities are taking steps to protect the most vulnerable children. Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will prepare an impact assessment on Education if he will amend Chapter 4, paragraph 4.59 the effects of his Department’s education reforms on of the Safeguarding Children and Safer Recruitment in the arts and culture sector. [62241] Education document to ensure that supply agencies are obliged to provide to schools and further education Mr Gibb [holding answer 27 June 2011]: The colleges direct evidence that the requisite safety checks organisations within the arts and culture sector are vital have been carried out on supply staff prior to an partners in achieving cultural education for all children. individual taking up their post. [62537] Our Schools White Paper, “The Importance of Teaching”, 919W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 920W stated our commitment to ensuring that every child Written Questions: Government Responses experiences a high quality cultural education. Following a well-received review of music education earlier this Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for year, Darren Henley, Managing Director of Classic Education when he plans to answer question 60376 on FM, is currently undertaking a review of cultural education contracts held by his Department tabled on 14 June and we expect to receive from him, later this year, 2011 for answer on 16 June 2011. [62770] recommendations on how best to achieve this. Tim Loughton [holding answer 28 June 2011]: I refer Personal, Social, Health and Economic Education the hon. Member to the response issued on 27 June 2011, Official Report, columns 572-75W. Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether he plans to publish the terms of reference for the internal review of personal, social, DEFENCE health and economic education, including sex and Armed Forces: Vehicles relationship education announced in his Department’s publication The Importance of Teaching: the Schools David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for White Paper 2010; and if he will make a statement. Defence how many non-combat vehicles leased or [59395] hired by his Department were manufactured in (a) the UK, (b) another EU member state and (c) a country Mr Gibb: I can confirm that we will publish the remit outside the EU. [62675] for the personal, social, health and economic review on the Department’s website. The remit for the review is Peter Luff: Information on the origin of manufacture still being considered and further details will be available of vehicles leased to the Ministry of Defence is only in due course. available from the contractors in question and I will write to the hon. Member as soon as this has been Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for provided. Information on the origin of manufacture of Education whether he plans to publish his Department’s hired vehicles is not held centrally and could be provided review of personal, social, health and economic education. only at disproportionate cost. [59419] Capita Mr Gibb: When the review of personal, social, health and economic education is launched, we plan to publish Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for the remit on the Department’s website. Defence how many contracts his Department has awarded to Capita since May 2010; and what the (a) monetary Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for value and (b) net worth was of each contract. [62728] Education when he expects his Department’s review of personal, social, health and economic education to be Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has awarded five contracts to Capita or its associated companies completed. [59517] since May 2010, with the following value ranges: Mr Gibb: We will set a deadline to complete the Contract value banding (£) Number of contracts review of personal, social, health and economic education in the remit to be published. 5-10 million 2 100,000-250,000 2 Primary Education: Standards Under 100,000 1 Total contracts 5 John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for This information was taken from the MOD’s Financial Education what the name is of each of the 200 worst Management Shared Service Centre (FMSSC) contracts performing primary schools in England. [61156] database as at 31 May 2011. G4S Mr Gibb [holding answer 21 June 2011]: The Department does not intend to publish a list of the 200 worst performing primary schools in England. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many contracts his Department holds with G4S; and what the (a) purpose and (b) monetary value of Pupils: Disadvantaged each such contract is. [58679]

Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Peter Luff: In financial year 2010-11, the Ministry of Education what his policy is on ensuring that children Defence made payments against 11 contracts with G4S in receipt of free school meals are adequately or associated companies, in the follow value ranges: nourished during school holidays. [62503] Contract value banding Number of active contracts

Mr Gibb: Free school meals are provided to eligible £25 to £50 million 1 pupils attending school during term time only. When £1 to £5 million 2 children are not at school, the benefits system should £500,000 to £1 million 2 provide support for poorer families to provide sufficient £100,000 to £250,000 1 nourishment for their children. 921W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 922W

Contract value banding Number of active contracts Contract value banding Number of active contracts

Under £100,000 5 £250 to £500 million 1 Total 11 £100 to £250 million 1 £50 to £100 million 4 Detailed information on the specific purpose of each £25 to £50 million 7 contract is not held centrally; I will write to the right £10 to £25 million 6 hon. Member with further details. £5 to £10 million 8 IBM £1 to £5 million 8 £500,000 to £1 million 10 Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence £250,000 to £500,000 3 how many contracts his Department holds with IBM; £100,000 to £250,000 7 and what the (a) purpose and (b) monetary value of Under £100,000 18 each such contract is. [58693] Total 74 Detailed information on the specific purpose of each Peter Luff: In financial year 2010-11, the Ministry of contract is not held centrally; I will write to the right Defence made payments against 24 contracts with IBM hon. Member with further details. or associated companies, in the following value ranges: Unmanned Air Vehicles Contract value banding Number of active contracts £100 to £250 million 3 Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for £50 to £100 million 1 Defence (1) who the partners in the Taranis Project are; £25 to £50 million 1 and what the timetable is for the project; [62280] £5 to £10 million 3 (2) how many unmanned combat air vehicle projects £1 to £5 million 7 his Department is engaged in; and with which partners £250,000 to £500,000 2 it is so engaged; [62286] £100,000 to £250,000 2 (3) what progress his Department has made together Under £100,000 5 with its French counterparts on the development of an Total 24 unmanned combat air vehicle. [62287] Detailed information on the specific purpose of each Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) is contract is not held centrally; I will write to the right undertaking work on the Taranis technology demonstrator hon. Member with further details. in partnership with a BAE Systems led industry team Military Aircraft comprising Rolls-Royce, QinetiQ and GE Aviation. Initial ground-based testing began in 2010 with flight trials Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State scheduled to take place in either 2011 or 2012. for Defence how many Typhoon aircraft were The Department is also engaged in a further unmanned grounded on (a) 23 March, (b) 6 April, (c) 20 April, combat air system (UCAS) concept design and engineering (d) 4May,(e) 18 May, (f) 1 June and (g) 15 June study with a BAE Systems led team which includes 2011 because parts had been removed to keep other Rolls-Royce and Selex. This will help inform new concept aircraft airborne. [62614] designs for a future operational UCAS. Discussions have taken place, and will continue, between Peter Luff [holding answer 28 June 2011]: I refer the MOD officials and their French counterparts about the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 30 March 2011, future development of unmanned combat air vehicles Official Report, column 389W. The three aircraft from but these are at a very early stage. the sustainment fleet, which were not available for flying, were used as donor aircraft for spares throughout the dates listed. In addition, one aircraft was declared temporarily unserviceable on 15 June, following the CABINET OFFICE removal of a part to meet urgent operational needs. Civil Service: Pensions Serco Mrs Glindon: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Office pursuant to the answer of 23 June 2011, Official how many contracts his Department holds with Serco; Report, column 393W, on My Civil Service Pension, and what the (a) purpose and (b) monetary value of how many employees are standing for election to the each such contract is. [58656] Employee Partnership Council (EPC); whether trade unions will be represented on the EPC; and when the Peter Luff: In financial year 2010-11, the Ministry of election results are expected to be announced. [63126] Defence made payments against 74 contracts with Serco or associated companies, in the following value ranges: Mr Maude: 13 employees stood for election to the Employee Partnership Council. Trade Union members Contract value banding Number of active contracts and representatives were able to stand for election. 340 members of MyCSP voted and the six successful candidates Over £500 million 1 have now been elected. 923W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 924W

Mrs Glindon: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Table 1: Period life expectancy at age 651, Dartford local authority Office (1) pursuant to the answer of 23 June 2011, district and Kent county2, 2007-093 Official Report, column 393W, on My Civil Service Years of life Pension, how many (a) face to face, (b) written, (c) Area Men Women electronic, (d) telephone and (e) other consultations Dartford 18 19 have been undertaken with MyCSP employees; how Kent 18 21 many employees have been consulted in total; and how 1 Period life expectancy at age 65 is an estimate of the average number many (i) supported, (ii) opposed and (iii) were undecided of years a 65 year old would survive if he or she experienced the area’s on the mutual joint venture; [63127] age-specific mortality rates for that time period throughout the rest of (2) when he last consulted (a) MyCSP employees his or her life. The figure reflects mortality among those living in the area in each time period, rather than mortality among those born in and (b) trade unions on the proposed mutualisation of each area. It is not therefore the number of years a 65 year old living MyCSP. [63129] in the area in each time period could actually expect to live, both because the death rates of the area are likely to change in the future Mr Maude: Employee engagement at My Civil Service and because many of those currently living in the area will live elsewhere for at least some part of their lives. Pensions has been extensive. All employees have been 2 Based on boundaries as of 2010. consulted and open communication is a core part of 3 Three year rolling average, based on deaths registered in each year everyday business. To support local engagement, the and mid-year population estimates. chief executive and his leadership team have conducted two rounds of face-to-face roadshows at all locations so National School of Government far this year. The most recent all-employee conference call was on 21 June. The most recent all-employee newsletter was published on 27 June. Regular engagement Stephen Barclay: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet with trade unions remains a priority; the most recent Office what courses the National School for meeting was held on 15 June, with another planned for Government has offered in the last 12 months; and 4July. how many Government officials have completed each such course in that period. [62947] Mrs Glindon: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office when he expects to announce the private sector Mr Maude: The National School of Government has partner in the mutual joint venture proposed for the delivered 809 events to a domestic audience for the 12 administration of MyCSP. [63128] month period from 1 June 2010 to 31 May 2011. These events were attended by 33,254 UK government officials. Mr Maude: I aim to announce the successful joint A copy of the table showing the events that the venture partner before the end of the year. National School delivered during the 12 month period will be placed in the Library of the House. Life Expectancy: Older People

Gareth Johnson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet HEALTH Office what the average life expectancy was for people aged 65 years living in (a) Dartford constituency and Accident and Emergency Departments: Closures (b) Kent in the latest period for which figures are available. [63287] Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Health what recent guidance his Department has responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have provided to hospital trusts on the closure of accident asked the authority to reply. and emergency departments; and if he will make a statement. [62945] Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated June 2011: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Mr Simon Burns: The Department has not issued any have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what the average life expectancy was for people aged 65 years recent advice to hospital trusts on the closure of accident living in (a) Dartford constituency and (b) Kent in the latest and emergency departments. In July 2010, the Department period for which figures are available. (63287) issued guidance setting out how the national health Life expectancy figures are calculated as three-year rolling service should assure any proposals for significant service averages and are available for all current administrative and change against the Secretary of State’s four tests. This health areas. Figures for parliamentary constituencies are not guidance can be obtained from the Department’s website readily available. at: Table 1 as follows provides the period life expectancy at age 65 www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Letters andcirculars/ years for men and women living in (a) Dartford local authority Dearcolleagueletters/DH_117899 district and (b) Kent county, for 2007-09 (the latest figures available). Ninety-five per cent of the area covered by Dartford parliamentary and a copy has been placed in the Library. constituency falls within Dartford local authority district. Period life expectancies at birth and at age 65 for males and Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for females in the UK, constituent countries, regions, counties, and Health how many NHS accident and emergency local areas, from 1991-93 to 2007-09, are published on the National departments closed in each of the last three years; and Statistics website at: how many such departments he expects to close in the http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=8841 next 12 months. [62946] 925W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 926W

Mr Simon Burns: This information is not available Mr Simon Burns: The Department has awarded 166 centrally. The hon. Member may wish to contact each contracts to Capita and its related organisations since strategic health authority for the information. May 2010. The following table shows the number of contracts Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for and monetary value. Health what advice his Department provides to (a) primary care trusts and (b) acute NHS trusts on the Number of Purchase order provision of suitable alternative provision following the Supplier name purchase orders value (£) closure of an accident and emergency department; and Capita Business 7 348,110.00 if he will make a statement. [62948] Services Ltd Capita Health 8 2,959.21 Mr Simon Burns: It is for national health service Solutions commissioners to determine and secure the services Colchester necessary to meet the health care needs of their local Capita Resourcing 118 2,065,079.71 populations, taking account of local and national priorities. Ltd When considering any reconfiguration of accident and Capita Secure 1 2,500.00 Information emergency services, commissioners should ensure that Systems Ltd the public can continue to access high quality care. Any Capita SHG 11 787,219.10 such decisions should also be assured against the Secretary Resourcing of State’s four tests for service change, which are that Capita Symonds 21 187,743.91 proposals must demonstrate: support from general Ltd practitioner commissioners; strengthened patient and Grand total 166 3,393,611.93 public engagement; a clear clinical evidence base; and Notes: support for patient choice. A purchase order represents an individual contract with Capita. Information and Communications Technology: Security Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidance his Department issues on the required level of public consultation prior to the Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for closure of accident and emergency departments; and if Health how many IT security breaches each NHS trust has reported to his Department in each of the last three he will make a statement. [62951] years. [62950]

Mr Simon Burns: The Department issued guidance Mr Simon Burns: The information is not available entitled “Changing for the better” in 2008 on the process and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. underpinning changes to acute NHS services. This guidance All national health service trusts should systematically set out, that under section 242 of the NHS Act 2006, record security breaches, but information on these is national health service organisations must make not collected by the Department or centrally within the arrangements that secure the involvement of people in NHS. the planning and development of services. This guidance was strengthened in 2010 through the Secretary of Malton Hospital State’s four tests, which included the requirement that commissioners must demonstrate evidence of strengthened patient and public engagement. The Secretary of State’s Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for tests ensure that service change must demonstrate: Health what assessment he has made of the implications of the closure at short notice of operating a clear clinical evidence base underpinning and proposals, theatres at Malton hospital. [62651] which focuses on improved outcomes for patients; clear support for proposals from GPs as the commissioners of Mr Simon Burns: NHS Yorkshire and the Humber local services; has advised that on 20 June 2011, Scarborough and strengthened arrangements for public engagement; and North East Yorkshire Healthcare NHS Trust (SNEY) support for patient choice. suspended usage of the operating theatre at Malton When planning involvement activity, commissioners community hospital on the grounds of patient safety. need to think about proportionality and appropriateness. This is a matter for the national health service locally, Should commissioners determine that a formal consultation and as such, the Department has made no assessment is appropriate, this should follow the Government’s of the implications of this closure. My hon. Friend may Code of Practice on Consultation. Copies of the “Changing wish to approach the chief executive of SNEY for for the better guidance” and the Government Code of further information. Practice on Consultation have already been placed in the Library. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the level of maintenance of the operating theatres at Malton Capita hospital in each of the last five years. [62652] Mr Simon Burns: Maintenance of the operating theatre Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for at Malton community hospital is a matter for the national Health how many contracts his Department has awarded health service locally. As such, the Department has to Capita since May 2010; and what the (a) monetary made no assessment of maintenance levels relating to value and (b) net worth was of each contract. [62723] this facility. My hon. Friend may wish to approach the 927W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 928W chief executive of North Yorkshire and York Primary Mr Simon Burns: We receive regular correspondence Care Trust for further information. from the public and representative bodies, and questions from members of both Houses, concerning the roles Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for undertaken by community pharmacists in the national Health what assessment he has made of the health service to optimise the use of medicines and effectiveness of the arrangements whereby the facilities support public health. at Malton hospital are owned by North Yorkshire and York Primary Care Trust and services are provided by Primary Care Trusts hospital trusts in York and Scarborough; and if he will make a statement. [62654] Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the (a) rate of and (b) Mr Simon Burns: Agreements of this nature are a practice of (i) merger and (ii) transfer of responsibilities matter for the national health service locally and as between primary care trusts in the last six months. such, the Department has made no assessment of the [62980] effectiveness of this arrangement. NHS Yorkshire and the Humber has confirmed that Scarborough and North Mr Simon Burns: As set out in the 2011-12 Operating East Yorkshire Healthcare NHS Trust provides services Framework, the 151 primary care trusts (PCTs) across at Malton community hospital, which is owned by England have come together to form 51 PCT clusters North Yorkshire and York Primary Care Trust. My under single executive teams. These clusters are designed hon. Friend may wish to approach the chief executive to ensure that the PCTs within them are able to sustain of NHS North Yorkshire and York, for further information. management capacity and capability to deliver their responsibilities while also reducing their administration Mental Health Services costs until PCTs are abolished in April 2013, subject to parliamentary approval of the Health and Social Care Bill. Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for These new clusters are not statutory bodies and do Health if he will publish an implementation plan for not replace PCTs, which retain all their statutory his Department’s mental health strategy, No Health responsibilities. without Mental Health, setting out the steps (a) the Government, (b) commissioners, (c) providers and The Operating Framework for the NHS in England (d) local authorities will take to deliver improved 2011-12 also stipulated that strategic health authorities mental health outcomes for people of all ages. [62644] would oversee the development of PCT clusters and ensure local coherence across the local development of Paul Burstow: The implementation of the mental the new architecture. health strategy, “No Health Without Mental Health” is Primary Care Trusts: North Yorkshire being overseen by a Ministerial Advisory Group of which I am chair. The group’s papers can be found at: Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ Health who will take ownership of the infrastructure PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/ DH_127788?PageOperation=email and facilities in North Yorkshire and York currently owned by the primary care trusts after 2013. [62653] Commissioners, providers and local authorities are represented on the group and all will actively contribute Mr Simon Burns: On 6 January 2011, the Department to the development of the implementation programme announced that all aspirant community foundation trusts plan, which will be published in due course. The group are to be given the opportunity to acquire the primary are next scheduled to meet on 5 July 2011. care trust (PCT) owned estate required to support the NHS: Accountability delivery of services for which they have responsibility. Assets are not at this stage being made available to Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health other potential providers. Consideration is being given whether he plans to publish guidance on the as to what arrangements should be in place for the accountabilities and relationships between the NHS future ownership and management of the remainder of Commissioning Board, commissioning groups and the PCT owned estate. Health and Wellbeing Boards. [62643] Psychiatry Mr Simon Burns: The Department published the response to the NHS Future Forum’s report on 21 June Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2011, which outlined in greater detail how we anticipate what assessment he has made of the adequacy of the the future landscape of health care to develop. The National Institute for Clinical Excellence guidelines on Department continues to work closely with stakeholders psychotherapy; and if he will make a statement. [62768] to develop the arrangements of the NHS Commissioning Board, clinical commissioning groups and health and Paul Burstow: No such assessment has been made. wellbeing boards, and further detail will be available The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence shortly. (NICE) has not produced a clinical guideline specifically on the use of psychotherapy although it has made Pharmacy recommendations relating to the use of psychotherapy in several condition-specific clinical guidelines. NICE is Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health an independent body and its guidance is based on a what recent representations he has received on the role thorough assessment of the available evidence and is of community pharmacists in the NHS. [62941] developed through wide consultation with stakeholders. 929W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 930W

Radiotherapy Anne Milton: In November 2009 the Department published “Legal issues relevant to non-heartbeating Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for organ donation”. A copy has been placed in the Library Health what assessment his Department has made of and is also available on the Department’s website at: the reasons for the variation in the implementation of www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/ Intensity-Modulated Radiation Therapy among documents/digitalasset/dh_109864.pdf radiotherapy centres. [62949] This document sets out the Department’s view of the legal position in relation to interventions taken prior to Paul Burstow: As with the majority of health services, death to facilitate non-heartbeating donation, now more the commissioning of Intensity-Modulated Radiation commonly called donation after circulatory or cardiac Treatment (IMRT) is the responsibility of individual death. Any action taken prior to death where the patient trusts, taking into account the needs of local populations. lacks capacity must be in their best interests in line with “The Operating Framework for the NHS in England the Mental Capacity Act 2005. Although it is therefore 2011-12”, published in December 2010, sets out that, to not possible to say categorically whether a specific improve outcomes from radiotherapy treatment for cancer action or decision will always be in every patient’s best patients, commissioners should develop local plans to interests, anything that places the person at risk of ensure that access rates to radiotherapy and the use of serious harm or distress is unlikely ever to be in the advanced radiotherapy techniques, such as IMRT, are person’s best interests. appropriate for their populations. A copy of the Operating Framework has already been placed in the Library. The National Cancer Action Team is working with DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER providers to support the development of IMRT services and, at this time, 20 of the 28 cancer networks have at Legal Aid least one provider offering IMRT. “Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer”, published on 12 January, also set out the commitment to investigate the potential Priti Patel: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister (1) development of a range of tariffs to incentivise high whether he has considered the merits of bringing quality, cost-effective services, including the newest forward amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and radiotherapy techniques such as IMRT. Punishment of Offenders Bill to extend the franchise to prisoners; [62930] Roads: Accidents (2) whether he has instructed officials to draft legislation to extend the franchise to prisoners. [62926]

Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Harper: The Government are considering the Health how many people have been diagnosed with (a) next steps and will inform the House when decisions on acute whiplash injury and (b) late whiplash syndrome the way forward have been reached. in each of the last 10 years. [62955] Prisoners: Voting Rights Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is not collected centrally. The Information Centre for health and social care has advised that its data collection codes Priti Patel: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister do not include a dedicated code for whiplash injuries whether officials in his Department have discussed and therefore they are unable to identify these patients. prisoner voting rights with officials in the Ministry of Justice since 10 February 2011. [62929]

Smoking: Public Places Mr Harper: Yes, officials are in regular contact on this issue. Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Health which premises have been granted exemptions from the ban on indoor smoking in public places on the basis that they are a specialist tobacconists used by persons INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT for sampling cigars under the provisions of the Smoke-free (Exemptions and Vehicles) Regulations Capita 2007, (S.I., 2007, No. 765). [62796] Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Anne Milton: The information requested is not collected International Development how many contracts his centrally and is therefore unavailable. However, the Department has awarded to Capita since May 2010; Department understands from the Association of and what the (a) individual monetary value and (b) Independent Tobacconists that there are around 45 net worth was of those contracts. [62721] specialist tobacconist shops in England. Mr Duncan: The Department for International Transplant Surgery Development (DFID) has not awarded any centrally-let contracts to Capita since May 2010. Mr Swayne: To ask the Secretary of State for Health To provide information relating to contracts which what his policy is on elective ventilation as a means of may have been awarded to Capita by our delegated securing organs for transplant; and if he will make a procurement officers based in overseas locations would statement. [61920] incur disproportionate costs. 931W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 932W

Developing Countries: Tuberculosis We are carefully considering responses to our consultation proposals. Subject to that analysis we hope to consult Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for on possible trajectories for biofuel supply and greenhouse International Development when his Department plans gas savings in spring 2012, with a further consultation to publish the objectives for restricting the spread of on proposed legislative changes in late 2012. These tuberculosis referred to in its Business Plan for 2011 to actions would enable the legislative framework for the 2015. [62942] period 2014 to 2020 to be set in mid 2013. Conditions of Employment Mr O’Brien: Combating tuberculosis (TB) is an important part of overall efforts to improve the health of the poor. As outlined in the recently published “UK Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Aid: Changing Lives, Delivering Results”, the UK Transport what recent discussions he has had with (a) Government are committed to reducing unnecessary officials in his Department, (b) the Secretary of State suffering from TB by supporting global efforts to halve for Business, Innovation and Skills and (c) outside TB deaths by 2015. organisations on the potential effects of changes arising from the review of employment law on matters We are committed to reducing the spread of diseases within his Department’s responsibilities. [60715] like TB, HIV and malaria, and DFID has therefore produced an HIV Position Paper “Towards Zero Norman Baker: The review of employment-related Infections”, which also sets out our approach to tackling laws is being co-ordinated by the Department for Business, TB/HIV. This is available on DFID’s website. We will Innovation and Skills and is a cross-Government initiative. set out our overarching position on health, including our approach to health systems strengthening, critical The Department for Transport is engaged in the to addressing TB, later in the year. process, and relevant Ministers and officials are in contact with BIS on a regular basis in taking forward Trade Unions the review. The Department is engaging with stakeholders on Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for International issues relating to the employment law review in accordance Development whether any funding from the public with the standard procedures for consulting formally purse provided through his Department’s Strategic Grant and informally on policy development. Agreement with the Trades Union Congress was used Departmental Procurement to fund the Trade Unions and International Health and Safety workbook. [62589] Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Duncan: Between 1 January 2003 and 31 December Transport what progress his Department has made in 2005, the Department for International Development encouraging small businesses to bid for Government (DFID) provided £416,387 to the Trades Union Congress contracts. [60189] under the Strategy Grant Agreement. A final report on activities funded by this grant was presented to DFID Norman Baker: The Department for Transport has in June 2006. The report provides a comprehensive published its plan to increase engagement with small description of the activities conducted by the ten unions and medium enterprises (SMEs). Further information funded by this grant. There is no reference in the report can be found at: to funds being used for the Trade Unions and International http://www2.dft.gov.uk/about/procurement/ Health and Safety workbook. actionsimprovingsmebusiness/pdf/targets.pdf Departmental Redundancy TRANSPORT Biofuels Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent estimate his Department has Mr Robin Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for made of the cost to the public purse of redundancies in Transport if he will bring forward proposals to its non-departmental bodies (a) in 2011-12 and (b) promote the use of biofuels. [60972] over the comprehensive spending review period. [61724] Norman Baker: The Renewable Transport Fuel Norman Baker: I refer the right hon. Member to my Obligation (RTFO) is the primary mechanism in the answer of 9 May 2011, Official Report, column 950W, UK for incentivising the use of biofuels in road transport to the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria and has been in place since 2008. Eagle). We have recently concluded a consultation on amending In addition BRB (Residuary) Ltd is estimated to have the RTFO to implement the Renewable Energy Directive redundancy costs of around £1 million. Redundancy (RED). The RED requires the UK to source 10% of costs for Passenger Focus for 2011-12 are now estimated energy used in transport from renewable sources by at £1.42 million. 2020 and that biofuels used towards this target meet mandatory sustainability criteria. Driving Instruction In our consultation we proposed no significant change to the current obligation levels set under the RTFO and Mr David: To ask the Secretary of State for to keep under review what additional measures will be Transport what his policy is on the distance from home required to ensure that the UK delivers the requirements drivers are required to travel to attend driver awareness of the RED and FQD in the period 2014 to 2020. courses. [62937] 933W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 934W

Mike Penning: There is a national framework organised Driving Under Influence: Drugs by the police for driver awareness courses, which enables motorists to attend courses near where they live. I Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for strongly support a national framework, although it is Transport what progress his Department has made in for each police force to decide whether to participate. I its work to establish that driving under the influence of welcome the choice of the vast majority of English and drugs constitutes an offence of driving while impaired; Welsh police forces to take part and would encourage and what progress it has made on research into (a) the few forces that are not yet participating to follow impairment of and (b) technology for the detection of this approach. drugs in drivers. [61278]

Driving Offences: Insurance Mike Penning: There are complex issues associated with the introduction of an additional offence. Preparatory Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for work is at an early stage following the Government’s Transport with reference to the Strategic Framework response to the North review on drink and drug driving for Road Safety, by how much his Department in March. proposes to increase the fixed penalty for uninsured The specification for drug screening kit in police driving. [61280] stations has already been published. Field trials for six devices are just being concluded and these will then Mike Penning: There is no specific proposal to increase move to the laboratory testing. the fixed penalty of £200 issued by the police for using an uninsured vehicle. However, as stated in the Strategic Large Goods Vehicles Framework for Road Safety we will consider the level of this along with other motoring offences and fixed penalties. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for At the same time we are keen to see the courts make full Transport what assessment he has made of trends in use of the range of penalties for this offence. We do the ratio of actual tonnes to capacity tonnes per recognise there is a strong case for better correspondence kilometre carried for (a) articulated lorries over 33 between penalties and the cost of purchasing insurance. tonnes and (b) all heavy goods vehicles under 33 A new offence of keeping a vehicle without insurance tonnes since 1985. [62382] has recently been introduced. Under the Continuous Insurance Enforcement scheme, keepers of vehicles which Mike Penning: Statistics on heavy goods vehicle lading appear to be uninsured, but have no Statutory Off Road factors (the ratio of goods moved to the maximum Notification in force will be fined a fixed penalty of achievable tonne kilometres) are available on the £100 by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency with Department for Transport website. Figures are available further enforcement action—wheel-clamping, impounding from 1999-2009 in Table 1.12 of “Road Freight Statistics and ultimately prosecution by the courts. The scheme, 2009” and from 1991-2001 in Table 7 of “Transport of including the penalty, will be reviewed as part of the Goods by Road in Great Britain 2001”. post implementation review. Statistics prior to 1991 are only available in hardcopy format. A copy of Table 7 in Transport of Goods by Driving Offences: Unpaid Fines Road in Great Britain 1995 is as follows. The tables show statistics for rigid and articulated Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport heavy goods vehicles and for different weight groups; with reference to the Strategic Framework for Road however, the specific split for all heavy goods vehicles Safety, what measures his Department is considering less than 33 tonnes is not available for this time period. for the recovery of unpaid motoring fines. [61277] An assessment was made in research commissioned by the Department entitled “Longer and/or Longer and Mike Penning: The recovery of unpaid motoring Heavier Goods Vehicles (LHVs)—a Study of the Effects fines is the responsibility of the Ministry of Justice. if Permitted in the UK”.

Table 7: Proportion of empty running and lading factors1: by vehicle type: 1985 to 1995 Vehicle type and size (gvw tonnes) 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995

Percentage of empty running Rigid vehicles

Over 3.5 to 7.5 28.7 28.0 29.3 28.6 27.5 28.5 27.3 26.6 27.8 26.2 28.0 Over 7.5 to 17 29.6 28.3 28.6 28.5 27.7 27.2 27.1 25.9 26.6 26.3 27.3 Over 17 to 25 43.1 42.6 41.8 41.1 39.7 40.1 39.6 39.0 38.5 38.1 38.2 Over 25 44.8 44.7 45.2 44.8 43.7 44.6 43.7 42.4 43.1 42.4 40.7 All rigids 32.2 31.1 31.9 31.5 30.6 30.8 30.1 29.1 30.0 29.1 30.2

Articulated vehicles

Over 3.5 to 33 tonnes 29.3 29.1 29.7 29.0 29.5 28.1 27.1 25.2 26.1 26.7 27.6 Over 33 28.1 28.5 28.7 28.4 28.9 28.4 27.8 27.7 28.6 28.2 28.6 All artics 28.9 28.9 29.3 28.7 29.2 28.3 27.6 27.0 27.9 27.8 28.3 All vehicles 31.0 30.3 30.8 30.4 30.0 29.8 29.1 28.2 29.1 28.5 29.4 935W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 936W

Table 7: Proportion of empty running and lading factors1: by vehicle type: 1985 to 1995 Vehicle type and size (gvw tonnes) 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995

Lading factor Rigid vehicles Over 3.5 to 7.5 0.41 0.38 0.40 0.45 0.42 0.43 0.43 0.40 0.43 0.42 0.44 Over 7.5 to 17 0.49 0.46 0.46 0.49 0.46 0.46 0.44 0.45 0.45 0.45 0.45 Over 17 to 25 0.76 0.73 0.71 0.72 0.69 0.70 0.68 0,66 0.65 0.65 0.63 Over 25 0.91 0.89 0.90 0.88 0.86 0.88 0.86 0.84 0.82 0.80 0.78 All rigids 0.60 0.57 0.58 0.59 0.57 0.58 0.56 0.55 0.55 0.55 0.56

Articulated vehicles Over 3.5 to 33 tonnes 0.65 0.61 0.59 0.58 0.56 0.54 0.51 0.48 0.49 0.50 0.49 Over 33 0.76 0.75 0.75 0.75 0.73 0.71 0.70 0.69 0.70 0.69 0.70 All artics 0.69 0.67 0.68 0.68 0.67 0.66 0.65 0.64 0.65 0.65 0.66 All vehicles 0.66 0.63 0.64 0.65 0.64 0.63 0.62 0.61 0.62 0.62 0.63 1 The ratio of the actual goods moved to the maximum tonne-kms achievable if the vehicles, whenever loaded, were loaded to their maximum carrying capacity.

Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Domestic road freight average payload: 1982 to 2009 Transport (1) what assessment he has made of the Average payload (tonnes) changes in the average payload of heavy goods vehicles 2004 9.3 attributable to the introduction of maximum payloads 2005 9.5 for heavy goods vehicles in (a) 1999 and (b) 2001; 2006 9.5 [62383] 2007 9.9 (2) what estimate he has made of the average 2008 10.1 payload of heavy goods vehicles in the latest period for 2009 9.7 which figures are available; and what assessment he has Note: Average annual payload is calculated by total annual tonne-kilometres divided made of trends in average payloads for heavy goods by total annual loaded kilometres. vehicles since 1985. [62384] Source: Continuing Survey of Road Goods Transport, DfT. Mike Penning: Average domestic payloads for British- Large Goods Vehicles: Safety registered heavy goods vehicles from 1982 to 2009 (the latest year for which figures are available) are shown in Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for the following table. These figures are derived from the Transport what consideration his Department has Department for Transport Continuing Survey of Road given to the safety equipment to be (a) required and Goods Transport. (b) recommended for use on any heavy goods vehicle An assessment was made in research commissioned over 16.5 metres long authorised for use on UK roads. by the Department entitled “Longer and/or Longer and [61232] Heavier Goods Vehicles (LHVs)—a Study of the Effects if Permitted in the UK”. Mike Penning: Research commissioned by the Department for Transport considered the use of safety Domestic road freight average payload: 1982 to 2009 equipment, such as steering technology, on articulated Average payload (tonnes) lorries combined with semi-trailers over 16.5 metres 1982 8.4 long. Various options for such equipment were included 1983 8.5 in the Department’s consultation on whether or not to 1984 8.5 allow an increase in the length of articulated lorries. 1985 8.5 The Government are now analysing the consultation 1986 8.4 response and will make an announcement later in the year. 1987 8.8 1988 8.9 Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for 1989 8.8 Transport if his Department will participate in the EU 1990 8.8 collaborative research project on truck safety. [61274] 1991 8.6 1992 8.5 Mike Penning: The Department for Transport has no 1993 8.8 current plans to participate in an EU collaborative 1994 8.7 project on truck safety. Careful consideration will be 1995 9.2 given to any such proposals that would improve road 1996 9.1 safety in the UK. 1997 9.0 1998 9.0 Motorcycles: Safety 1999 8.9 2000 8.9 Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for 2001 9.1 Transport what steps his Department has taken at EU 2002 9.2 level to encourage the development and deployment of 2003 9.3 safety technologies for motorcycles. [61275] 937W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 938W

Mike Penning: The Department for Transport part Rescue Services: Manpower funded the recently completed EU project, Powered Two Wheeler Integrated Safety (PISa). The aim of this Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for project was to demonstrate the potential of a number of Transport what the average length of service is of HM advanced safety systems such as ‘active’ braking. Coastguard staff employed at each Maritime and The Department is also satisfied that a proposal from Coastguard Agency location in Scotland. [61584] the European Commission to require advanced braking systems on new motorcycles has the potential to prevent Mike Penning [holding answer 23 June 2011]: The a significant number of accidents. We will continue to information requested is in the following table. work with the Commission and other member states to Average number of years in service develop the details of the proposal and seek a cost-effective MRCC Median approach to the introduction of these new braking measures. Aberdeen MRCC 10.80 Clyde MRCC 13.43 Forth MRCC 15.98 Ports: Liverpool Shetland MRCC 10.67 Stornoway MRCC 12.23 Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Roads: Safety Transport what state aid issues his Department considered in the award of a grant for the construction of the city of Liverpool cruise terminal. [62978] Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how much funding his Department will provide to Think Education in (a) 2010-11 and (b) Mike Penning: The main UK grant award for each financial year of the comprehensive spending construction of the city of Liverpool cruise terminal review period. [61272] was made under the previous Administration by the North West Development Agency, with parallel funding Mike Penning: THINK! Road Safety communications from the European regional development fund. The expenditure in 2010-11 was £2.3 million and the budget grant condition precluding the use of the terminal for for each year of the comprehensive spending review turnaround cruise was agreed at the request of the period is £3.5 million. Department for Transport, based on considerations of UK domestic competition. Speed Limits

Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what criteria his Department is using to Transport with reference to the Strategic Framework determine the application to use the city of Liverpool for Road Safety, when he plans to revise and reissue cruise terminal for turnaround calls. [62979] guidance on speed limits in urban areas. [61276]

Mike Penning: I am considering this request by Liverpool Mike Penning: Revised guidance is planned to be city council based on balancing the interests of potential published in six to 12 months time. The revision and economic regeneration and those of fair competition in reissue of the guidance about speed limits may involve the market for cruise calls. consultation and will be co-ordinated with the development of an economic tool to assist local authorities make robustly defensible decisions about speed limits. Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation Trade Unions

Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will assess the effect of variations in the price of pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Esher renewable transport fuel obligation certificates on the and Walton of 17 June 2011, Official Report, column sustainability of the diesel industry. [61596] 1024W, on trade unions, what the budget was for (a) his Department, (b) the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Norman Baker: As part of the Government’s measures Agency, (c) the Driving Standards Agency, (d) the to address climate change, the renewable transport fuel Government Car and Despatch Agency, (e) the Highways obligation (RTFO) ensures a growing proportion of Agency, (f) the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, (g) UK road transport fuels are from sustainable renewable the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency and (h) the sources. The RTFO includes a certificate trading mechanism Vehicles Certification Agency in 2010-11; and what to increase the efficiency of compliance. The value of proportion of the budget in each case was used to fund individual renewable transport fuel certificates (RTFCs) trade union facility time. [62663] is determined by the market and depends upon the relative cost of supplying biofuel and fossil fuels. RTFCs Norman Baker [holding answer 28 June 2011]: For for the obligation period 2010-11 have sold at 15p to the agencies, the budget or latest forecast expenditures 24p at auction. We continue to monitor the market for 2010-11 can be found in the Business Plan publications value of RTFCs and consider that to date the RTFO on their respective websites. For the central Department, has met its objective of driving a market for renewable they can be found in HM Treasury’s website under transport fuels in the UK. Main Estimates. 939W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 940W

The cost of funding trade union facility time was the Mr Andrew Mitchell: I have been asked to respond to subject of the answer to the hon. Member for Esher and this parliamentary question on behalf of the Secretary Walton (Mr Raab) of 17 June 2011, Official Report, of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. column 1024W. Since the onset of violence in Libya, a number of migrant workers have sought to flee areas worst affected by conflict. The UK Government are working closely FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE with partners such as the International Organisation for Afghanistan: Human Rights Migration (IOM) and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) who are supporting migrants to be repatriated to their home countries Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State safely. Individuals have their health status assessed by for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he medical teams before their repatriation takes place. is taking to ensure that (a) human rights and (b) the rights of women are protected as part of any political The majority of people fleeing Libya have been settlement in Afghanistan. [60028] repatriated to their countries of origin, predominantly by the IOM, with UK support. More than 1.1 million Mr Hague: It is the UK Government’s views that to people fleeing from Libya had crossed the border into be sustainable and durable, any political settlement in Tunisia and Egypt. As a result of British and other Afghanistan must be inclusive and respect the rights of international efforts, less than 7,500 people currently all Afghan citizens, including women. remain on both borders. We work closely with our international partners to Sri Lanka: War Crimes support the Afghan Government as it works to implement the commitments it made on human rights at the London Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State and Kabul conferences. These include the development for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the of a National Priority Programme for Human Rights answer of 21 June 2011, Official Report, column 156W, and Civic Responsibilities. The UK provides financial on Sri Lanka: war crimes, what monitoring his Department support to the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights is undertaking to assess progress by the Government of Commission and supports a Human Rights Support Sri Lanka on addressing allegations of war crimes. Unit based within the Ministry of Justice. [63081] UK representatives in Kabul continue to press the Afghan Government to implement its national and Mr Hague: Our high commission in Colombo is international human rights commitments, including the monitoring developments to assess any progress made, Elimination of Violence Against Women law and the including the Sri Lankan Government’s “Lessons Learnt UN Convention of the Elimination of All Forms of and Reconciliation Commission”. We work closely with Discrimination Against Women. the US and other EU missions in doing so, and draw on reports from civil society, the UN and others. Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations Since the end of the conflict, the UK has called for an independent, thorough and credible investigation of Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State allegations of war crimes committed during the hostilities. for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on what recent If meaningful reconciliation between Sri Lanka’s occasions he has discussed with his US counterpart the communities is to take place, Sri Lanka needs to investigate transfer of security responsibility to forces in these allegations and hold accountable those responsible Afghanistan. [56322] for war crimes. Mr Hague: I am in regular contact with Secretary Sudan: Overseas Investment Clinton about the situation in Afghanistan. I met her most recently during her visit to the UK on 23 May 2011. Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Internet Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans he has to encourage British investment in Sudan and South Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Sudan. [61921] for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what support Mr Jeremy Browne: The British embassy in Khartoum his Department has given to UK nationals working has a small UK Trade and Investment section which overseas as online journalists in the last 12 months for responds to inquiries from British companies interested which figures are available. [56393] in the Sudanese market. The British Government strongly Mr Hague: We offer support to British nationals support the Norway and Turkey initiative to co-host an abroad when they get into difficulty. We do not hold international investment and engagement conference specific statistics on support given to UK nationals for Sudan later this year. We also support US plans for working overseas as online journalists. a similar conference to promote trade with the South. We are positively engaged with the Sudanese; and as the Mediterranean Region: Human Trafficking Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the right hon. Member for Richmond (Yorks) Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign (Mr Hague), made clear to Sudanese Foreign Minister and Commonwealth Affairs if he will assess the risk to Karti on 6 June, it is important to see both Sudan and the health and well-being of irregular migrants presented South Sudan emerge at the end of the comprehensive by unlawful people-trafficking over routes across the peace agreement as two economically viable states, living Mediterranean sea; and if he will make a statement. in peace and stability. We remain committed to helping [62680] both sides make this happen. 941W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 942W

Syria: UN Resolutions Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 28 June 2011]: The Equality and Human Rights Commission (The Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Commission) is an arm’s length body; the following is for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on how many based on information it has provided. occasions he has discussed a potential UN Security The cost to the Commission of representing the Council resolution on Syria with his (a) Russian, (b) claimants in the case of Hall and Preddy v. Bull and Chinese and (c) US counterpart. [63018] Bull in the county court was £14,520.96. The Commission’s costs to date of the appeal to the Mr Hague: I regularly raise our proposed Security Court of Appeal totals £3,852. Council Resolution on Syria with my counterparts from other members of the United Nations Security Council. The Prime Minister, our ambassadors around the world, Government Equalities Office: Pay the UK Permanent Representative to the United Nations in New York and other officials overseas do likewise. Mr Raab: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities what the salary is of the highest earning official of (a) Turks and Caicos Islands: Corruption the Government Equalities Office and (b) the Equality and Human Rights Commission. [59773] Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 15 June 2011]: has made of the final cost of Helen Garlick’s At 31 March 2011 the salary of the highest earning investigation into corruption in the Turks and Caicos permanent official at Government Equalities Office was Islands. [62414] within the following pay range: £130,000 to £135,000. The Equality and Human Rights Commission (The Mr Jeremy Browne: The final cost of the investigation Commission) is an arm’s length body; the following is will not be known until it has concluded. based on information it has provided. Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for At 31 March 2011 the salary of the highest earning Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he expects permanent official at the Commission was within the Helen Garlick’s investigation into corruption in the following pay range: £130,000 to £135,000. Turks and Caicos Islands to conclude. [62415] The Commission also engages 34 interims through employment agencies. They do not receive a salary but Mr Jeremy Browne: The Special Investigation and are instead paid a daily rate. Prosecution Team (SIPT), led by Helen Garlick, is The highest amount paid to an interim member of carrying out an independent investigation. The SIPT the Commission’s staff for the period 1 April 2010 to 31 continues to make progress, but its activities have to be March 2011 was £200,813. kept confidential to protect the integrity of the investigation.

Human Trafficking

WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Mr Bone: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities what assessment she has made of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission: Finance implications for the Government’s policy on equalities of the provision of care for (a) adult and (b) child John McDonnell: To ask the Minister for Women and victims of human trafficking. [61648] Equalities whether the spending controls announced by the Cabinet Office on 2 March 2011 apply to the Lynne Featherstone: The Government are committed Equalities and Human Rights Commission. [62205] to protecting all victims of human trafficking. In respect of adults—victims of human trafficking Lynne Featherstone: The spending controls announced are entitled to support as set out in the Council of by the Cabinet Office on 2 March 2011 apply to the Europe Convention on Action against Trafficking in Equality and Human Rights Commission. They will be Human Beings, which includes: accommodation, living operated consistently with the Commission’s independence expenses, access to counselling and medical treatment, and status as a national human rights institution in the interpretive services and resettlement support. The UN system. Government have introduced a new model for funding specialist support for adult victims of trafficking in Equalities and Human Rights Commission: Public England and Wales. Victims will receive support in line Finance with the standards of the Council of Europe Convention and tailored to their individual needs. These support Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister for Women services will be equally available to all identified adult and Equalities how much the Equalities and Human victims, regardless of their particular equality and diversity Rights Commission spent from the public purse on traits, or the type of exploitation they have suffered. legal fees in respect of support for the claimants in the An equality impact assessment of this change in case of Hall and Preddy v. Bull and Bull; and if she will commissioning model identified primarily positive equality make a statement. [62618] impacts. 943W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 944W

In relation to children—local authorities have a statutory Annual business survey (ABS), small firms, net capital expenditure duty to ensure that they safeguard and promote the £ million welfare of all children under section 11 of the Children 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Act 2004, regardless of their immigration status or Less than 250 32,266 33,155 36,440 37,941 32,600 nationality. Trafficked children who become looked after registered have the same entitlement to care services as all other employees children. Where a child becomes looked after, local Note: authorities must allocate the child a social worker who The ABS covers about two-thirds of the UK economy including will assess their needs and draw up a care plan which production, construction, distribution and service industries. sets out how the authority intends to respond to the full The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills range of a child’s needs. This must take into account the collects information on innovation through the UK child’s wishes and feelings. innovation survey. The survey is run every two years and covers innovation behaviour over a three-year period. Businesses are requested to estimate their innovation expenditure data for the final year in the period. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS UK innovation survey, small firms (10 to 49 employees), shares of innovation expenditure by activity Aerospace Industry Percentage of all small business expenditure Innovation activity 2006 2008 Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Internal R&D 19 22 for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will make an External R&D 4 2 assessment of UK competitiveness in the aerospace Acquisition of 48 44 industry; and if he will make a statement. [57496] machinery Acquisition of 39 Mr Prisk: The UK is one of only a few nations with knowledge capability across the entire aircraft product range, with Training 9 14 strong positions in the most technologically advanced, Design 4 4 high value-added segments. These include the design, Market 14 5 manufacture and maintenance repair and overhaul of introductions aero-engines, advanced wings and airframe structures, Notes: 1. Due to the quality of expenditure data, only proportions of total helicopters, avionics, landing gear, electrical and fuel expenditure by size and activity are published. systems, actuations and interiors. The supply chain 2. (b) data for 2011 is not yet available. The most recent data is comprises some 2,500 companies spread widely throughout provided in response to (a) above. the UK. Business: Regulation The UK has the largest aerospace industry in Europe and the second largest in the world (after USA), with a Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for 17% global market share. It has a turnover of around Business, Innovation and Skills what research he has £22 billion, of which about 70% is exported, which (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on costs of provides access to growing world markets such as China. compliance for (i) micro, (ii) small and (iii) medium- The sector directly employs around 100,000 highly skilled sized businesses. [62218] people and supports a further 122,000 jobs indirectly. Some 36% of employees are educated to degree, or Mr Prisk: The Better Regulation Executive published equivalent level. a report in November 2010, focusing on the experience The Government and the UK aerospace industry are of the UK’s smallest businesses and summarised the working together, primarily through the Aerospace Business experiences they reported in dealing with the overall Leaders (chaired by the Secretary of State for Business, regulatory burden. ‘Lightening the Load—The Regulatory Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)) and Aerospace Impact on UK’s Smallest Businesses’ can be found at: Growth Partnership (chaired jointly by the Minister of http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/better-regulation/docs/l/ State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills 10-1251-lightening-the-load-regulatory-impact-smallest- (Mr Prisk) and Marcus Bryson—CEO of GKN businesses.pdf Aerospace), to see how best the UK aerospace sector No other Government-wide research has been can strengthen its competitive position in the global commissioned, nor evaluated on costs of compliance market and maximise the opportunities for growth. for small and medium-sized businesses. However, Government Departments routinely consider the impact Business: Expenditure of small and medium enterprises complying with regulations when drawing up impact assessments for proposed regulations and carrying out reviews of existing regulations. Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much small Export Credits Guarantee Department businesses spent on (a) capital projects and (b) innovation in (i) each year since 2005 and (ii) 2011 to Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, date. [62025] Innovation and Skills how many projects the Export Credits Guarantee Department has declined to support Mr Willetts: The Office for National Statistics (ONS) on the grounds of inadequate social, environmental and collects information on net capital investment through human rights screening processes in each of the last five its annual business survey. years. [61914] 945W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 946W

Mr Davey: In the past five years the Export Credits Mr Willetts: The Government announced their Guarantee Department (ECGD) has not supported any Healthcare and Life Sciences Growth Plan in March projects that did not meet international environmental, 2011. The plan builds on the Life Sciences Blueprint social and human rights (ESHR) standards at the time and contains a package of measures to strengthen the ECGD gave its support, in accordance with its obligations UK as a location for life sciences. under the OECD Recommendation on Common In the area of clinical trials and health research, Approaches on Environment and Officially Supported measures include: Export Credits, which regulates the basis upon which export credit agencies address ESHR impacts of the setting up a new Health Research Authority to streamline projects they are asked to support. regulation; ECGD has not refused to support any applications making funding for providers of NHS services contingent on meeting a 70-day benchmark to recruit first patients for trials; for projects which did not meet international standards; when deficiencies are identified it engages with projects building consensus on using e-health record data to create sponsors until it is satisfied that the project meets unique opportunities for research in the UK; international standards or the application is withdrawn. opening up information on clinical research to promote collaboration and innovation, and Patents: International Cooperation publishing prescribing data at a practice level, subject to an evaluation and impact assessment by the NHS Information Centre. Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for To encourage collaboration and innovation in the Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer sector the Government will: of 16 June 2011, Official Report, column 963W, on patents: international cooperation, what the steps are establish translational research partnerships from its £775 million which he has taken to encourage the European Patent investment in NHR biomedical research centres and units; Office to pursue work-sharing with the United States take actions to remove any barriers that limit the further Patent and Trademark Office and the Japan Patent development of geographical clusters for entrepreneurship and Office. [62711] business growth; launch a competition to form a Cell Therapy Technology and Mr Davey: The Government encourage the European Innovation Centre (TIC); Patent Office’s (EPO) work-sharing activities through improve market signalling by bringing companies and educators its seat on the EPO’s Administrative Council. The UK together to ensure educators provide the skilled individuals the has encouraged the EPO to get involved in foundation sector needs to grow; project work-sharing schemes with the other four biggest ensure the intellectual property (IP) system supports life sciences Intellectual Property Offices (the United States, Japan, businesses, and China and South Korea). In addition to these, the UK encourage innovation in NHS procurement, including £10 has encouraged the EPO’s involvement in a number of million investment by the Department of Health in the small schemes with USPTO and JPO exclusively: business research initiative on health care challenges. JP First, launched April 2008, in which the Japanese Patent Sir David Nicholson, chief executive of the NHS, will Office (JPO) examines early applications which have also been review how the adoption and diffusion of innovations filed at the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) and the EPO, so that the other offices can make use of the work can be accelerated across the NHS. Sir David will report of the JPO when they examine cases. his findings to Government by November 2011. The Triway pilot program in which the USPTO shares its In social care the Government will: search results, and search history, with the EPO and the JPO at an improve the take-up of assisted living technology, including an early stage, so that they may use them in their own searches. £18 million R&D investment programme through the Technology Another important international work-sharing scheme Strategy Board, and is the Patent Prosecution Highway (PPH) which allows strip out regulations that were never meant for the social care applicants at a first office to benefit from accelerated market and prevent market entry for small providers and processing of their application at a second office in flexible services. exchange for behaviour which makes processing easier We are investing in our world leading research base for the second office. The Intellectual Property Office of by: the UK signed its first PPH agreement with Japan in July 2007, and encouraged the European Patent Office protecting the science budget; to do likewise. The EPO signed a trilateral PPH agreement supporting business-led technology innovation through the with Japan and the US which came into effect in January Technology Strategy Board’s strategic programmes, i.e. collaborative 2010. R&D programmes in Cell Therapies and Technologies for Health, in regenerative medicine, in assisted living, in the While these initiatives are a positive step forward, detection and identification of infectious agents, and in stratified there remains much work to be done, and we continue medicines. to encourage the EPO to engage in work-sharing. We are establishing an attractive tax regime to encourage innovative business to invest in the UK through: Science: Industry the Patent Box; increasing the rate of SME R&D tax relief to 200 per cent in Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State 2011 and 225 per cent in 2012, subject to state aid approval, as for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is well as consulting on proposals to simplify the scheme; and to taking to increase the competitiveness of the UK life ensure relief is available when R&D project work is contracted sciences industry. [57587] out. 947W Written Answers30 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 948W

UK Trade and Investment has identified the life (a) has provided and (b) plans to provide funding to sciences as a priority sector in its recent strategy, Britain the organisation thecityuk. [61948] Open for Business. UKTI has resources dedicated to the sector supporting both UK companies’ trade activity and encouraging high value inward investment into the UK. Mr Davey: Since 2003, the core Department and its predecessors have made only two payments to thecityuk. TheCityUk: Finance The first was made in July 2005 for £159 and the second was made in April 2010 for £633. There are no open Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for commitments to provide any further funding. Business, Innovation and Skills whether his Department

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 30 June 2011

Col. No. Col. No. CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 1099 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— Congregations...... 1103 continued Fuel Prices ...... 1100 Bovine TB...... 1093 Marriages...... 1101 Dogs ...... 1094 New Statesman ...... 1099 Fisheries...... 1091 Religious Education...... 1102 Food Prices ...... 1087 Rural Committee ...... 1099 Forestry...... 1083 St Paul’s Church, Truro...... 1100 Inland Waterways ...... 1088 Tourism...... 1101 Livestock Provenance...... 1088 Women Bishops ...... 1102 Pig Industry ...... 1086 Recycling ...... 1090 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Regulation ...... 1089 AFFAIRS...... 1083 Topical Questions ...... 1095 Biodiversity...... 1084 Wild Animals in Circuses...... 1094 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 30 June 2011

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 54WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 66WS Industrial Action...... 54WS Libya (Equipment for the National Transition Council)...... 66WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 58WS Public Records: Colonial Documents...... 66WS Review of Statutory Duties on Local Authorities .. 58WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 67WS Forensic Science Research and Development ...... 67WS CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 55WS National DNA Database Ethics Group ...... 68WS News Corp/BSkyB Merger...... 55WS JUSTICE...... 68WS DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 59WS Matrimonial Property and Registered Partnership Individual Electoral Registration ...... 59WS Property Regimes...... 68WS Memorandum of Understanding (UK PRIME MINISTER ...... 69WS Government and the Devolved Reports of the Chief Surveillance, Interception of Administrations)...... 61WS Communications, and Intelligence Services Commissioners ...... 69WS EDUCATION...... 61WS Industrial Action in Schools ...... 61WS TRANSPORT ...... 69WS Dartford-Thurrock River Crossing (Charges) ...... 69WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 62WS TREASURY ...... 53WS Simplifying the CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme..... 62WS European Court of Justice Judgment (Use of Gender by Insurers) ...... 53WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 63WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 70WS Pet Travel Scheme ...... 63WS Social Fund Community Care Grants...... 70WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 30 June 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 943W CABINET OFFICE—continued Aerospace Industry...... 943W National School of Government...... 924W Business: Expenditure ...... 943W Business: Regulation ...... 944W CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 909W Export Credits Guarantee Department...... 944W Civil Partnerships...... 909W Patents: International Cooperation...... 945W Science: Industry...... 945W TheCityUk: Finance ...... 947W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 892W Government Procurement Card ...... 892W CABINET OFFICE...... 922W Civil Service: Pensions ...... 922W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 902W Life Expectancy: Older People ...... 923W Architecture: Finance...... 902W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued HEALTH—continued Commercialisation and Sexualisation of Primary Care Trusts: North Yorkshire ...... 928W Childhood...... 902W Psychiatry ...... 928W Film ...... 903W Radiotherapy ...... 929W Ofcom...... 903W Roads: Accidents ...... 929W Sports: Betting ...... 903W Smoking: Public Places ...... 929W Sports: VAT ...... 903W Transplant Surgery...... 929W

DEFENCE...... 920W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 893W Armed Forces: Vehicles...... 920W Asylum: EU Countries...... 893W Capita ...... 920W Fixed Penalties...... 893W G4S...... 920W Garages and Petrol Stations: Theft ...... 893W IBM ...... 921W Hizb-ut Tahrir...... 894W Military Aircraft ...... 921W Human Rights Act 1998 ...... 894W Serco ...... 921W Offences Against Children ...... 894W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 922W Police and Crime Commissioners...... 897W Police: Incentives...... 897W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 930W Sexual Offences: Yorkshire...... 897W Legal Aid ...... 930W Stalking...... 897W Prisoners: Voting Rights ...... 930W West Midlands Police: Manpower...... 898W West Midlands Police: Overtime ...... 898W EDUCATION...... 916W Adoption ...... 916W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 930W Children: Protection...... 917W Capita ...... 930W Education: Arts...... 918W Developing Countries: Tuberculosis...... 931W Personal, Social, Health and Economic Trade Unions ...... 931W Education ...... 919W Primary Education: Standards...... 919W JUSTICE...... 899W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 919W Courts: CCTV...... 899W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 920W Data Protection Act 1998...... 899W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 899W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 907W Judges: Housing...... 900W Energy: Meters...... 907W Legal Aid ...... 900W Natural Gas ...... 908W Offenders: Training ...... 901W Oil: Reserves ...... 908W Personal Injury: Applications...... 901W River Severn: Tidal Power...... 909W Prison Service: Contracts ...... 901W Risk Assessment ...... 901W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 912W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 906W Conditions of Employment...... 913W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 906W Departmental Buildings...... 913W Departmental Official Cars...... 906W Departmental Manpower...... 913W Devolution...... 907W Departmental Redundancy ...... 913W Food: Prices ...... 914W SCOTLAND...... 891W Government Food Procurement...... 912W Economic Situation ...... 891W Local Government Finance ...... 914W High Speed Rail ...... 891W Offshore Industry: Arctic ...... 914W Scottish Retail Consortium...... 891W Oil...... 915W Public Sector: Food...... 915W TRANSPORT ...... 931W Sewerage ...... 912W Biofuels...... 931W Conditions of Employment...... 932W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 939W Departmental Procurement...... 932W Afghanistan: Human Rights ...... 939W Departmental Redundancy ...... 932W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 939W Driving Instruction ...... 932W Internet ...... 939W Driving Offences: Insurance...... 933W Mediterranean Region: Human Trafficking ...... 939W Driving Offences: Unpaid Fines...... 933W Sri Lanka: War Crimes ...... 940W Driving Under Influence: Drugs ...... 934W Sudan: Overseas Investment...... 940W Large Goods Vehicles ...... 934W Syria: UN Resolutions ...... 941W Large Goods Vehicles: Safety...... 936W Turks and Caicos Islands: Corruption ...... 941W Motorcycles: Safety...... 936W Ports: Liverpool ...... 937W HEALTH...... 924W Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation...... 937W Accident and Emergency Departments: Closures... 924W Rescue Services: Manpower ...... 938W Capita ...... 925W Roads: Safety ...... 938W Information and Communications Technology: Speed Limits ...... 938W Security...... 926W Trade Unions ...... 938W Malton Hospital ...... 926W Mental Health Services ...... 927W TREASURY ...... 904W NHS: Accountability ...... 927W Arch Cru...... 904W Pharmacy...... 927W Aviation: Pollution Control...... 904W Primary Care Trusts...... 928W Banks: Finance ...... 904W Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY—continued WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 909W Economic Situation: Greece...... 905W Departmental Assets...... 909W Working Families Tax Credit ...... 906W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 909W Efficiency Savings ...... 910W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 941W Employment ...... 910W Equalities and Human Rights Commission: Employment Schemes: Hearing Impairment...... 911W Finance...... 941W Pensioners: Poverty ...... 911W Equalities and Human Rights Commission: Public Social Fund...... 911W Finance...... 941W Social Security Benefits: Mental Health...... 912W Government Equalities Office: Pay ...... 942W Universal Credit...... 912W Human Trafficking ...... 942W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Thursday 30 June 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1083] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Church Commissioners

Ninetieth Birthday of HRH the Duke of Edinburgh [Col. 1105]

Speaker’s Statement [Col. 1106]

BSkyB [Col. 1107] Answer to urgent question—(Mr Jeremy Hunt)

Business of the House [Col. 1117] Statement—(Sir George Young)

Police Detention [Col. 1133] Statement—(Nick Herbert)

Civil List [Col. 1144] Resolution—(Mr George Osborne)

Sovereign Grant [Col. 1178] Bill presented, and read the First time

Legislative Reform Order (Epping Forest) [Col. 1179] Motion—(Lynne Featherstone)—agreed to

Liverpool Passport Office [Col. 1195] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Co-operatives and Mutuality [Col. 345WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 53WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 891W] [see index inside back page]