DÁIL ÉIREANN AN COMHCHOISTE UM GHNÓTHAÍ EACHTRACHA AGUS TRÁDÁIL, AGUS COSAINT JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND TRADE, AND DEFENCE Dé Máirt, 21 Feabhra 2017 Tuesday, 21 February 2017 The Joint Committee met at 12.30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Deputy Seán Barrett, Senator Ivana Bacik, Deputy Colm Brophy, Senator Paul Coghlan, Deputy Seán Crowe, Senator Gerard P. Craughwell, Deputy Bernard J. Durkan, Senator Billy Lawless, Deputy Noel Grealish, Senator Neale Richmond. Deputy Seán Haughey, Deputy Mattie McGrath, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, Deputy Frank O’Rourke, In attendance: Deputy Declan Breathnach and Mr. Brian Hayes, MEP. 1 JFATD Joint Sitting with Joint Committee on European Union Affairs First Vice-President of the European Commission, Mr. Frans Timmermans: Discussion Co-Chairman (Deputy Brendan Smith): Today is an unique occasion whereby two joint committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas meet together in public session. Deputy Michael Healy-Rae chairs the Joint Committee on European Affairs. I welcome the members of both committees to this meeting. On behalf of both committees I am delighted to extend a céad míle fáilte, a hundred thousand welcomes to the First Vice-President, Mr. Frans Timmermans, to this the first joint meeting of the Foreign Affairs and Trade and Defence committee and the European Affairs committee of the Houses of the Oireachtas. This meeting provides an opportunity to engage and share views with members in some- what changeable times. I welcome the head of the European Commission representation in Ire- land, Mr. Gerry Kiely, whom we meet on a regular basis and the members of Mr. Timmermans’s cabinet, Ms Michelle Sutton and Ms Liesbeth Koenen. As EU Commissioner with responsibility for better regulation, intra-institutional relations, the rule of law and the Charter of Fundamental Rights, members from both committees will have much to discuss with you. As First Vice-President, I am certain that members will wel- come your views on the future of the European Union, the migration crisis, Europe’s Common Foreign and Security Policy and not least the unique challenges that Brexit poses to the island of Ireland and Europe as a whole. Before we proceed I invite my colleague, Deputy Healy-Rae to say a few words. Co-Chairman (Deputy Michael Healy-Rae): I welcome the First Vice-President of the European Commission, Mr. Frans Timmermans and his colleagues to the joint meeting today. On a light note, I hope we will not emulate Mr. Timmermans’s political record of having to go through six elections in 11 years. We had an election 12 months ago and I hope we do not have one for a long time not to mind another five or four after that. I echo the comments of my esteemed colleague, Deputy Smith, and want to say it is a pleasure to welcome you and your colleague today to the special joint sitting of the committees on Foreign Affairs and Trade and Defence and European Union Affairs. As my colleague has noted we live in challenging times for the European Union. My colleague detailed a number of the issues that the commit- tee I chair is most interested in, in particular the upcoming negotiations with the UK on exit- ing the European Union and working out what the EU should look like without the UK in it. Of course, we must also consider how we as a national Parliament engage with the European Union through the scrutiny process and beyond. We are looking forward to engaging with Mr. Timmermans on these topics and we thank him for his very valuable time. We appreciate his being here and thank him. Co-Chairman (Deputy Brendan Smith): I thank Deputy Healy-Rae. The format of the meeting is that we will hear brief opening remarks from Mr. Timmermans before going into a question and answer session with the members of both committees. I will call members in the order in which they indicated. Like any meeting , there are some housekeeping matters and formalities. I remind mem- 2 21 FEBRUARY 2017 bers, witnesses and those in the Public Gallery to ensure that their mobile phones are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting as they cause interference with the recording and broadcast equipment in the committee room even on silent mode. Today’s meeting is also being broadcast live on Oireachtas TV and across the various media platforms. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by abso- lute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. If, however, they are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call on the First Vice-President to make his opening remarks. For his information, his opening statement will be published on the committee website following this meeting. Mr. Frans Timmermans: I thank the Chairman for inviting me to the joint sitting today. I am here to listen to the member of the committee and to answer their questions. We are going through a rocky patch of European co-operation. We have had an unprec- edented economic crisis. We have not seen this bad a crisis since the 1930’s. Ireland was par- ticularly hit by it and it is astonishing for me to be back here after two and a half or three years and to see how this country has recovered so quickly. There are still many problems remaining but it is still astonishing to see the pace of recovery, which has not been copied by any other country that went through such a deep crisis. Of course, this crisis has sapped our self-confidence as Europeans across the European Union in all member states. Many of our people are wondering whether we are still masters of our own destiny and if we are still able to shape our future, if our children will still have jobs in this fourth industrial revolution and if we will still be able to maintain the levels of social protection we think we deserve, and that we do deserve. All these questions have created an existential question about this European Union and the way we co-operate. On top of that we have seen an unprecedented event, one of our member states deciding to leave the European Union, which has not happened before. We need to tackle that as well. We have a migration crisis. We have a security crisis in terms of tackling terrorism. We need to step up our efforts to create an economic success for the European Union, we need to make sure that protectionism does not prevail in the debate about international trade and we need to do all of this jointly. I am also here to stress very clearly, however, that the European Commission will be at Ireland’s side when we need to take into account the very special cir- cumstances Ireland has to deal with in the Brexit debate. Through its political ties, its historic ties, its geographical position and its economic structure, Ireland is a very special case in the Brexit debate. I want to pledge here today before this committee that the European Commis- sion will take these interests to heart and we will make sure that these interests are heard by everyone during the period of negotiations. For that to be successful, we also need Ireland’s very active engagement in this, all of the creativity Irish people can muster to make sure that we 3 JFATD find the best possible solution and all the political energy we can muster together to make sure that we do the least harm possible to all parties involved in the Brexit discussions. Co-Chairman (Deputy Brendan Smith): I thank the Vice-President. There are a number of speakers offering. I will take groups of three. The first person to offer is Deputy Bernard Durkan, to be followed by Senator Neale Richmond and then Deputy Seán Haughey. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: I welcome Mr. Timmermans and his colleagues. We wel- come his words of comfort and solidarity with respect to the negotiations on Brexit. We do not need to make that case to him. He is clearly very conscious of our needs in that area. Mr. Timmermans mentioned that he was surprised at how quickly the country recovered. Yes, we did. We knew at the outset that we had to make severe sacrifices in order to do so, and we did it. It was not without pain. There was a lot of pain across the country in almost every household. Many people lost their homes in the course of it and are still losing their homes. Its fallout still continues. What it results in, unfortunately, is what has now become known as the various poverties, whether poverty accruing from a long period of unemployment, from lack of a home or from being unable to fund a mortgage on the home.