THE PAST IS NOT ANOTHER COUNTRY

AN INTERVIEW WITH WANG YOUQIN

In October of 2000, Wang Youqin launched a has been done to systematically address the crimes against Web site recognizing those who died from humanity that occurred during the ? persecution during the Cultural Revolution. Wang: In , the persecutions were planned and arranged in Through twenty years of research involving advance.The leaders of the persecutions issued directives regard- more than a thousand interviews, Wang has ing what kinds of people would be targeted and how to attack them in detail, step by step.They defined categories of “ene- compiled a list of one thousand victims and mies” and created new phrases in the to label information regarding their deaths. The Web them. In my book Victims of the Cultural Revolution, I describe the backgrounds of 659 victims who died not for particular things site, www.chinese-memorial.org, bears the they did, but simply because they belonged to a category of slogan, “We will never forget you.” A little “enemies.” more than a year after the Web site was Teachers were a major target of the Cultural Revolution, as Mao clearly explained to the American journalist Edgar Snow. launched, Chinese authorities blocked The result of this decision was obvious and serious.At the access from the mainland. Girls’ Middle School attached to Normal University, one vice-principal was beaten to death by Red Guard students, and four teachers committed suicide after being attacked.At CRF: Why is it important to confront the Cultural Revolution Beijing Kuanjie Elementary School, the principal and dean rather than just to treat it as a matter of history? were killed by their students.At ,63 people died from persecution. It is painful to list the number of deaths Wang Youqin (Wang):The Cultural Revolution ended only 29 in more than 200 schools that I was able to include in my years ago.Almost half of the population of China today experi- investigations. I also regret that Mr. Snow did not mention the enced the ten years of the Cultural Revolution or grew up dur- death of any teachers in his writings. ing that time. In my opinion, the boundary between the persecutors and As far as the development of China’s economy in recent years victims was clear up to a certain point. But it often happened is concerned, it is clear that the Chinese authorities have that some people who had previously been persecutors changed Mao’s policies to a great extent. First, they discontinued became victims as the Cultural Revolution targeted more and the cultural revolutionary practice of long-term, large-scale and more “enemies.” For example, Jiang Longji and Lu Ping, two systematic persecution. Second, they started adopting new eco- top cadres at Peking University,labeled more than 700 profes- nomic policies that gradually released Chinese people from the sors and students as “Rightists,” a category of “enemy,” in trap of poverty of Mao’s time. In this context, the Cultural Revo- 1957 and 1958. Many of the “Rightists” of Peking University lution is not merely the past but is closely related to the present. were sent to jail or labor camps, and six of them were sen- tenced to death and executed. In 1966, both Jiang and Lu were CRF: In the case of many atrocities in other parts of the world, attacked as heads of universities (by then Jian headed Lanzhou the persecutors manage to dehumanize their victims through University and Lu headed Peking University) and accused of ethnic or cultural differences, e.g. whites against blacks in being “counterrevolutionary revisionists.” Both of them were South Africa,Aryans against Jews in Germany.In China, the sit- brutally tortured, and Jiang committed suicide. (In my book I uation seems more analogous to that in Russia, where the real described how 20 people who were heads of universities like crux of the matter was social and political divisions. Do you Jiang died during the Cultural Revolution.) think the often blurred boundaries between persecutor and If we put place two photographic negatives together, one victim may impede might be one of the reasons that so little on top of another, we will see a blurred picture.After the Cul-

China didn't even bother with show trials. Photo courtesy ofLiZhensheng from China didn'teven botherwithshowtrials.Photo courtesy Wang: CRF: confusion. earlier.Their double standardhascausedmoralandhistorical were persecutedanddeniedthat they hadpersecutedothers somepeoplewanted toemphasizethat they tural Revolution, hs iljs as n fte ee thepersecutioninChina Iwilljustraiseoneofthemhere: this. are manyon theirviolentpastthanRussians.There reasons for make thetwo placessimilarordifferent inthisrespect? past more effectively thanChina? What factors doyou think Doyou feel Russiahasbeenable toconfront itsviolent nist era. iar withpersecutionsintheSoviet theCommu- Unionduring You have read Solzhenitsyn extensively andare very famil- It is true that ChinesehaveIt istrue lesswriting produced much their terror during that time. during their terror Somehave even suffered akindofamnesiaregarding lution. what theywant todescribe suffered theCulturalRevo- during Many survivorsstilllive infear anddon’t scars. psychological and withoutanyschools verdict. intheirown beaten todeath by theirRedGuardstudents, were many andprincipals teachers even schools, elementary you and canseethat inmiddleschools Revolution of1966,” and inapaper entitled “Student againstAttacks Teachers:The Inmy book Maoeven didnoteven botherwithtrials. China, but in for theenemieshepurged, Stalin had “show trials” InRussia, thaninRussiansomeaspects. was more serious Red-Color NewsSoldier. There was asongentitled “Song ofOx-GhostsandSnake- The nature ofthisgreater causedeven terror deepfear and

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Demons” that was composed by high school students who were .They forced educators to sing it with a macabre melody while condemning them as “Ox-Ghosts and Snake-Demons.”This song spread from Beijing throughout the whole country.The lyrics went as fellows:

I am an ox-ghost and snake-demon. I am an ox-ghost and snake-demon. I am guilty.I am guilty. I committed crimes against the people, So the people take me as the object of the dictatorship. I have to lower my head and admit my guilt. I must be obedient. I am not allowed to speak or act incorrectly. Cattle or chickens? Photo courtesy of Li Zhensheng from Red-Color News If I speak or act incorrectly, Soldier. May you beat me and smash me, Beat me and smash me. The Cultural Revolution destroyed not only so many people’s lives, but also the moral standards of society generally. It is interesting that none of the teachers I interviewed In this context, I was deeply touched when I interviewed Guan could recall all ten lines of these lyrics, in despite of the fact Qiulan and I wrote her into the story of Li Jie, a victim. that many teachers were forced to sing it several times a day I have received many letters from readers since I started the throughout 1966. It was a former student, also a Red Guard, Internet memorial. Many of them particularly refer to the story who sent me the entire song when I put out a request over the of cattle and chicken that I included in the introduction to the Internet. For the teachers, psychological trauma destroyed memorial. It is a true story.I interviewed a teacher who spent their memory of such details.This can be considered a typical many years in a so-called “labor-reform” camp during the Cul- example of the selective memory of victims. tural Revolution. His job was to tend cattle and chickens. One However, feelings of terror should not become an excuse day they killed a cow that had become too old to work.They for forgetting the past. China has a long tradition of written killed the cow near a willow tree, where green grass always history,and Chinese scholars should make more effort to grew abundantly.After the killing, when the teacher tried to record recent history. drive cattle to the willow tree to feed, they resisted and moaned, bellowing as if in protest. But he found that chickens CRF: In your article “Repentance for the Death of Li Jie,” you were different.When you slaughtered a chicken and threw its refer to the guilt of someone who felt she had failed to inter- intestines on the ground, all the other chicken would rush over vene on behalf of someone else who was later persecuted to and fight over those intestines. death. Do you think this kind of “survivor guilt” is also an I raised a question in my introduction:Which attitude impediment, along with the large number of surviving indi- should people adopt—that of the cattle or of the chickens? A viduals who actually took part in the persecutions? reader in China emailed me a message with the subject line: “I don’t want to be a chicken any more.” From this kind of Wang: In my paper entitled “63 Victims and the Cultural Revo- response, I feel the survival of a strong sense of morality such lution at Beijing University.” I pointed out that only one person as I saw in Guan Qiulan. among the 63 victims at that university died in prison; the other 62 were simply killed or committed suicide after being CRF: A French journalist recently published a book, Machete tortured on Peking University’s campus or nearby.During the Season, in which he interviews some perpetrators of the Cultural Revolution, specifically ordered the Rwanda genocide about what they did and why they took part implementation of what he called “mass dictatorship,” which in the slaughter. Do you see any value in someone undertake a meant letting ordinary people carry out most of the persecu- similar project regarding the persecutors of the Cultural Revo- tion rather than the prisons and police force. lution? After the Revolution started, targeted persons were referred to as niuguisheshen (“ox ghosts and snake demons”), and eventu- Wang: I have not seen any projects regarding persecutors in the ally every work unit established jails that came to be known as Cultural Revolution. If we want to understand how the Cul- niupeng (“ox shacks”). In one of “ox shacks” of Peking Univer- tural Revolution occurred and prevent it from happening sity,more than 200 people were locked up for 10 months. again, we need to understand how the persecutors were pro- One result of the “mass dictatorship” was that a great many duced and how they gained the power to do what they did. people participated in the persecution to a greater or lesser Because of the lack of knowledge of victims in public degree for a variety of reasons. But if they are not willing to memory,many of China’s persecutors are not forced to admit express their regrets now,it will be hard for them to face up to or apologize for what they did. Some of these persecutors have the facts in the past. even threatened those who want to tell the truth.

mistakes were the CulturalRevolution? made during when thegovernment hasofficially acknowledged that site, other methodsadoptedoverseas mightbesuitable for China? Doyou have any opinionsonwhat seek toexposethetruth. with theCulturalRevolution areasyours projects that such Wang: CRF: Wang: CRF: Wang: CRF: allowed. but even that is not incyberspaceforcorner thevictims, Ihavetheir loved tofinda tried one’s ashesaftercremation. beneath mention. pieces oftrashthat were The victimswere considered enemies, “May Mao live Chairman for tenthousandyears.”the slogan, waving yelling red flags andMao’smen Square, littlered book, showfilms ofthatthrough period RedGuardsmarch Tianan- Newspapers and never mentionedaword about thevictims. they expectnomore thanthat. and information about theirloved onestoputontheInternet, Many ofthemsimply sendme tion compensation tome. families never men- victims’ Infact, pening inthenearfuture. ButIdon’t seethepossibilityofthat hap- symbolic amount. even ifit’s justa compensation shouldbepaidtothevictims, Monetary today’s socialsystemandmoralstandards in China. Web calledhimselfa memorial apersonwhohelpedmewiththe Five years ago, ual volunteers. Chinese population. are thanthoseofothernations cheaper becauseofthelarge lives Some peopletake thecynicalview that Chinesevictims’ that occurred. ered ofthebrutality isjustavery smallportion twenty years. very hardtocollectthenamesofChinesevictimsover thelast names onmy even thoughIhaveWeb beenworked memorial, Ihave only 1,000 Incontrast, Rouge have beendocumented. More than25,000CambodianvictimsoftheKhmer victims. group publishedrights two CDswiththenamesof1,345,796 Lastyear aRussianhuman ing ontheCulturalRevolution. ypoet andIconsidermyself tobeoneofthe my project, a “volunteer Many worker peoplehave for justice.” helpedwith even settingtherecord straightmore thanwe canhopefor? Oris some cases?Shouldthere bepunishmentofperpetrators? Chinese society?Shouldtherecompensation in bemonetary fronting theCulturalRevolution effect on anditslingering The families ofmostvictims were noteven allowed tokeep we have torely onindivid- organizationalLacking support, andwhat IhaveAn individual’s uncov- efforts are limited, Why your block doyou thinktheChineseauthorities Web tpeet itseemsthemosteffective ways ofdealing At present, dal,what results wouldIdeally, you like toseefrom con- uigteClua eouin theChinesemedia theCulturalRevolution, During Confronting theCulturalRevolution hasalottodowith I would like toseesomeorganizations involved inwork- yi gong in Chinese, which means which in Chinese, yi gongs . and the bright future weand thebright deserve. the CulturalRevolution for thesake ofouryounger generation and Iwillcontinue my project on me great encouragement, Herideasbrought beyondolution canreach nations anderas. in Inhisbook tion. blocked my Web for victims oftheCulturalRevolu- memorial Investigative andMurder Account ofPersecution,Imprisonment Wang: CRF: Wang Youqin hasalsopublished abook, EDITOR’S NOTE: tdns Monthsago Ireceived aletterthat went like this: students. but alsofrom young theRevolution, people whoexperienced Ihave received lettersnotonly from send metheirfeedback. address onthe Web andinmy memorial booksoreaders can Ihavemy putmy work email play asmallrole inthisrespect. Iamgladtosee through education oftheyounger generation. ond volume. Sheplanstopublish asec- 2004). Open Magazine Publishing, Hong Kong: of madness? again period manipulate theChinesepeopleintoanothersuch Or isthere stillsomepossibilitythat astrong leadercould so exceptionally that itwillnever horrendous happen again? very sad. but Istillfelt Itwas notasurprise, in theyear 2002. memorial 50 years ago realistically what happened describes tomy Web trols thepresent controls thepast.”The bookthat Orwell wrote con- “Whocontrols thepastcontrols thefuture.Who Party: Katie’s lettersshows that thelessonsfrom theCulturalRev- fully power willunderstandthescary [Mao]hadover China. andhope- an atmosphere, ofsuch thestrictness going tolearn how toactually say classis oneofhisposterslogans.The andIhave me teaching aChinesefriend recite Mao’s quotes, are goingto My “students” meeting. being taken toastruggle dent whounfortunately must beinformedofherparents from my classwhohave agreed tobeared guardandastu- Ieven have two andascarffor myself; people wristbands, Ihave made31red andIamtheteacher. tural Revolution, Iamsimulating theCul- Actually, aChineseclassroom during Several Ireceived anotherletterfrom days her: later, itbrought tearstomy eyes. andIfound your article, China, for theeffects of theCulturalRevolution onthepeopleof Iwas looking presentation onMaoZedongfor Englishclass. Iamdoinga andIam16years old. Hello! MynameisKatie, fe 6mnh nteItre,Beijingauthorities After 16monthsontheInternet, Can we hopethat theCulturalRevolution was experience NvrAan sagetsoa,andwe needtorealize it isagreat slogan, “Never Again” 1984 George Orwell wrote thissloganofthe , Victims oftheCultural Revolution:An (Wenge Shounanzhe)

ADVANCING SOCIAL JUSTICE 51 CHINA RIGHTS FORUM NO. 4, 2005