[Wednesday, 26 November 1986] 464863

Owing to diminishing areas of wetlands Xei~te~mebl caused by the increasing salinity, many Wednesday. 26 November 1986 species of wildfowl populations have decreased dramatically without decimating their numbers further by shooting. THlE SPEAKER (Mr Barnett) took the Chair Our precious wildlife must be permitted at 2.15 p.m., and read prayers. to exist without such wanton exploitation by man. EQUAL OPPORTUNITY Your petitioners therefore humbly pray that you will give this matter earnest con- School Activities: Petition sideration and your petitioners, as in duty MR P. J. SMITH (Bunbury) [2.16 p.m.]: I bound, will ever pray. have a petition which reads as follows- The petition bears 8 042 signatures. I certify that it conforms to the Standing Orders of the To: The Honourable the Speaker and As- Legislative Assembly. sembly of the Parliament of Western Australia in Parliament assembled. The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be brought to the Table of the House. We, the undersigned object to equal op- (See petition No. 69.) portunity laws compelling our children to integration of school activities, including WILDLIFE SANCTUARY sports, without referral, consultation or re- gard for parents and further the current Benger Swamp: Petition law does not have regard for individual MR MARLBOROUGH (Cockburn) [2.20 communities. p.m.j: I have a petition which reads as follow- We request that this legislated edu- To: The Honourable the Speaker and cational experiment cease. Members of the Legislative Assembly of the Parliament of Western Australia in Your petitioners therefore humbly pray Parliament assembled. that you will give this matter earnest con- We, the undersigned citizens of Western sideration and your petitioners, as in duty Australia, respectfully urge the Western bound, will ever pray. Australian Government to declare the The petition bears 22 signatures. I certify that 12 sq. kilometre Benger Swamp near it conforms to the Standing Orders of the Legis- Harvey a SANCTUARY for our precious lative Assembly. wildlife. We therefore urge you to: The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be brought to the Table of the House. (1) Take action to ensure that anyone in- terfering with, injuring or killing any (See petition No. 68.) native fauna in the Benger Swamp is duly Prosecuted. DUCK SHOOTING (2) Take action to ensure that the annual Banning: Petition procedure of draining Benger Swamp ceases forthwith and all drainage MR MARLBOROUGH (Cockburn) [2.18 points be sealed, leaving a flood level p.m.]: I have a petition which reads as fol- by pass only. lows- Your petitioners therefore humbly Pray -To: The H-onourable the Speaker and - that you will give this matter earnest con- Members of the Legislative Assembly of sideration and your petitioners, as in duty the Parliament of Western Australia in bound, will ever pray. Parliament assembled. The petition bears 8 487 signatures. I certify that it conforms to the Standing Orders of the We. the undersigned as concerned citi- Legislative Assembly. zens of Western Australia, urge the West- em Australian Government to initiate a The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be permanent ban on the Duck Shooting brought to the Table of the House. season. (See petition No. 70.) 4864 4864[ASSEMBLY]

MIDLAND ABATTOIR LAND SALE timetable before the committee can report than SELECT COMM UflEE was anticipated at the time the committee was Extension of Time first established. Nevertheless, on the Govern- ment 's side, I can say that it believes it has MRt D. L. SMITH (Mitchell) [2.21 p.m.]: I nothing to fear from an investigation of that move- fullness. The Government supports absolutely That the time for bringing up the report the fact that the committee ought to be given of the Select Committee into the sale of the every opportunity to investigate to the full Midland Abattoir Land be extended to 28 every detail of every allegation or claim made November 1986. by any person with regard to this matter. MR STEPHENS (Stirling) (2.22 pm.]: I in- The Parliament will be sitting at the time the dicate that although the committee has member for Mitchell has sought to have this requested the tabling of the report on 28 report tabled. I have given an indication to the November, the National Party is not very Leader of the National Party that time will be happy about this situation. made available for the debate of that report. In Parliament is drawing to a close, and this is a the normal course of events the Parliament very important document. The Government would probably reconvene for a day after this has thumbed its nose at Parliament by proceed- week anyway because my understanding of the ing with a land sale notwithstanding that a progress of business in the Legislative Council Select Committee was still investigating the is such that it will probably be necessary to matter. Now the Parliament is being told, for convene for at least a day's sitting after this reasons I do not know, that the report will not week to receive any amendments which may be tabled until 28 November. Will the Govern- come back for Bills from the Council. I will not ment provide an assurance that it will recon- give an undertaking that a separate sitting will vene Parliament for a day at a later stage be- be called merely to debate this report. I think tween now and Christmas so that members can when the report is tabled on 28 November, have a full opportunity to debate the report? members will see what the situation is and I shall discuss the matter with the Leader of the MR PEARCE (Armadale-Leader of the National Party and the Deputy Leader of the House) [2.24 p.m.]: I thought I had made the National Party and the Leader and Deputy position in respect of this report clear to the House yesterday when I was asked the very Leader of the Liberal Party-if they are then as they are today; things change fairly rapidly over same question by the Leader of the National there-and a decision will then be made by Party. consensus about the proper Course of action to The House will be given an opportunity to be taken to debate this report. debate this report but equally, I am sure, the House would not want to be in a si.tuation MR D. L. SMITH (Mitchell) [2.26 p.m.]: On where the report of this House turned out to be behalf of the committee, I assure the member like the report of the Legislative Council; that for Stirling that it is not the intention of the is, something that was cobbled together for out- committee to in any way prevent Parliament right political motivations in an Opposition- debating the issue. Quite simply, the com- dominated upper House to make political mittee is not ready to report. The committee is trying to present the report as early as it can. points according to a political timetable. Members will have noted that the committee Several members interjected. has already obtained leave of the House to al- Mr PEARCE: With the majority that the low it to sit while the House is sitting in order Government has on this committee, it could to present the report as early as possible. If the have done precisely the same thing-hat is, member for Stirling has any doubts about cobble together a quick political report, and lob whether the report is complete and we are sit- it on the Table of the Assembly as a counterbal- ting on it, I can only suggest that he discuss ance to that disastrous and defamatory docu- that- ment that was Produced in the Legislative Mr Stephens: I appreciate the problems, but I Council. also want the House to take cognisance of the The member for Mitchell, as Chairman of fact that we really need time to study the re- this Select Committee, has taken a very proper port, and it should be debated. The day before attitude; that is to say, he felt that all the mnat- yesterday you sought approval for us to debate ters that need to be investigated should be it today; that gives us about two days, bearing investigated fully. That has meant a longer in mind that we are going to rise on Friday. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986) 486586

Mr D. L. SMITH: I assure the member for Mr MENSAROS: That has been established Stirling and every other member of the House previously. Nobody would complain about the that the intention of the committee is to bring increase in the staff numbers if there were a in the report as soon as practicable. There have commensurately improved service. Nobody been some problems; the committee is sitting should take this comment as being a criticism while the House is sitting. We sat yesterday of the staff themnselves. They give just as ster- until 11.50 p.m. to try to achieve an early deliv- ling a service as they have ever given, but ery of the report to the committee; we have increased numbers and the introduction of continued our efforts since 9.30 this morning computers have not resulted in a better service. and we will continue to do that until late Some members might recall that 10 to IS tonight. If possible, the report will be delivered years ago we received the printed volumes of tomorrow, but my own expectation is that it Hansard as quickly as we do today. In some will be delivered on Friday. cases, we received them more quickly. As I Question put and passed. understand it, the Legislative Council has resorted to printing its own Notice Paper be- APPROPRIATION (CONSOLIDATED cause the State Printing Division apparently REVENUE FUND) BILL was not able to produce it as efficiently Or as In Committee cheaply. That should not be lost from sight. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Mr Some year or so ago the Joint House Com- Thomas) in the Chair; Mr Brian Burke mittee in its wisdom decided to introduce visi- (Treasurer) in charge of the Bill. tors tags for those visiting Parliament House and identification tags for some of the staff. I The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Before com- cannot see that any purpose was served by the mencing debate I advise members to read, if introduction of those tags. I cannot imagine, necessary, Standing Orders Nos. 303 and 304. from down-to-earth observation, that the wear- It is becoming a practice of the Chamber in ing of these dog tags adds to the safety and respect of dealing with these matters to call security of the place. Wearing the tags is hu- each Division separately, during which time miliating for visitors in some cases and it adds general debate will ensue. At the conclusion of in no way, shape or form to the safety or secur- general debate all members will have the op- ity of Parliament House. If somebody-heaven portunity to address themselves to individual forbid-were inclined to commit a terrorist ac- items and then to vote. tivity or even wanted in an organised fashion Division 2: Parliament, $4 445 000- to steal documents from Parliament House, the Mr MENSAROS: I reinforce briefly some of tagging system would not prevent them from the matters which I raised during the second doing so. Fortunately, we apparently do not reading debate and to which the Treasurer did have terrorist organisations in Western not take the opportunity to respond. Although Australia as yet. we as members of Parliament complain about Some of the visitors feel a little uncomfort- the proliferation of bureaucracy, we commit able about wearing the passes. I certainly feel the same error, because the ratio between staff uncomfortable about their having to wear employed by the Parliament and members of them. A little more than a year ago, I visited Parliament has increased considerably in the the House of Commons and the House of last 20 years. Not only has there been a con- Lords at Westminster. There is no tagging siderable increase in staff, there has also been a system there although there is more possibility large increase in electronic devices by way of of some sort of terrorist activity. Indeed, a computers, which it is claimed reduce* the Minister was shot in the carpark of the Houses necessity for a large work force. I refer particu- of Westminster some years ago. It was claimed larly to the Joint Printing Committee, includ- that the IRA was involved in the killing. ing Hansard. It appears that instead of reduc- When I was Minister for Works, every year I ing the necessity for an increasing work force, raised the matter of making Parliament House the computers add to that necessity. more fireproof. No Government, including Mr Brian Burke: That's right. We ours, ever took any action. Parliament House is computerised the land tax section of the State an old building. The fire risk is enormous. The Taxation Department and the Deputy Premier simple method I recommended to reduce the told us that we had to put on another 80 fire risk was to make fire-resistant partitions people, because they were needed to work the and doors between certain places so that if ever computers. a fire started it would not proliferate as quickly

(153) 4866 4866[ASSEMBLY] or as eratically as it would as things stand When one looks at the exhibition, which was today. Such action would have tremendous displayed on the second floor where not many merit in view of the historical value of the members venture and which has now been building and the irreplaceable nature of certain taken out and dusted, one can see, even from things within it. Year after year my suggestion last year's material, it is not an objective dis- was rejected or not given a top priority. It has play of parliamentary matters. I do not argue been rejected in favour of more spectacular or about this very much, but at least the display more pleasing actions, such as extension of the should be organised by the Parliament. kitchens and the like. The final matter I would like to mention is One service in Parliament House which has one which we should not run away from, and tremendously improved is the library service. 1 that is the extension of this Parliament House. commend it for that. The added electronic I do not want to talk in the same vein as others equipment which has been provided to the li- and say that no Government wants to tackle it. brary does Of not necessitate a larger number Improvements and additions are needed. We staff. I am thinking not so much about the want to allow ourselves similar working con- computers, but about the audio-visual devices ditions to other white-collar or even blue-collar which make it very comfortable for a private workers. A tractor driver does not sit in the member. Ministers have departments with tractor unless the cab is air-conditioned. I can- such facilities available so that they are able to not see any logical reason why we should not be look at current affairs or news items which they given at least the same comfort, if the Govern- may not have been able to see because of other ment considers our work important. commitments, such as attending sittings of the House. The service provides a great deal of Mr Brian Burke: How do you overcome the help and assistance which previously was not problem involved? available, but the staff of the library remains fairly small. Mr MENSAROS: To solve this problem we There is no appropriation under the Parlia- should have something at least approaching ment Division of the Estimates for Parliament comfort. This would involve a daring act by the Week. We have criticised Parliament Week be- Government. We have recently been given a fore, but the reason for our criticism was that it very good briefing by the Building Manage- was really a departmental week because even menit Authority regarding the long-term exten- the vote came under the Department for Par- sion of Parliament House. Having been in the liamentary and Electoral Reform. The vote construction business for 20 years and Minister there has been reduced drastically, a reduction for Works for three years, I have some under- which indicates that the amount allocated is standing of these matters. What I particularly probably only that which is needed to wind up like about the plan is that it is unlike what the operation. There will not be any Parliament usually happens. One usually gets so much Week this year. I am not criticising that. If the more accommodation and therefore starts to Government claims that it has to institute a use it, whether there is a real demand for it or savings operation, Parliament Week should not not. This accommodation was meant to be be a high priority when members of Parliament occupied by Various departments, thereby already have the opportunity and the responsi- sharing the payment of rent, and gradually, as bility to do whatever they can within their elec- need and necessity arise, it will be taken over as torates with respect to making the institution of parliamentary offices. Parliament popular. They can invite visitors and talk to schools and other organisations Many items will be comparatively costly. about it. Perhaps they should not have said this, but the officers who briefed us told us that the plan had If this or any other Government is thinking the support not only of the Building Manage- of reinstating Parliament Week, I urge that ment Authority, but also of the Minister for monetary provision be made under Parliament, Works in Cabinet. and it should be the responsibility of the pre- siding officers, or in conjuction with them and The third most, senior Minister in the the Joint House Committee, rather than the Administration has seen fit to support the plan. responsibility of the department headed by a However, as soon as editorial policy was Minister, to which the Opposition has no ac- expressed against it in a leading article in the cess and which could easily be accused of being daily newspaper, the Government dropped it political, whether intended or not. like a hot potato. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986J186 4867

This is where some courage is needed by the ditioning, and we are far from our secretaries. Government to do something of which one can These are small matters, but they add up to not only be proud, but which is also necessary lack of efficient working. to serve the public in this democratic insti- tution. In many cases, if we run away from Mr COURT: I would like to take the oppor- something which appears unpopular-we tunity while we are debating Parliament to never know whether something is really un- make a few comments along similar lines to popular because public opinion is made by the those made by the member for Floreat. I would media-we will never get anywhere. like to thank the staff of the library in this place for the superb job they do. In the five years I I can give two instances of what has occurred have been in this place it has been interesting in Australia. One was completed by a conserva- to see the changes which have taken place. tive Government and the other by a socialist Although they still operate out of the same rela- Government. Both got away with it; both were tively small physical area, with the use of new re-elected. Queensland and New South Wales technology they have the ability to provide a both have reasonable facilities for members. lot more of the information we require in this Queensland even built a new Parliament job. Chamber. When a member is in Government Mr Brian Burke: Do you know how it he tends happened in New South Wales? The former to get a bit more research assistance than when Premier Askin announced the development. he is a member of the Opposition. Often we When Premier Wran was elected he was able to have to go to the library to use its facilities when we are preparing material for a certain make quite a public show of cutting back on subject. Things are made a lot easier for us now Premier Askin's plans. that we are able to use the library to call up Mr MENSAROS: The last time I was in the outside facilities, thanks to the new technology. New South Wales' Parliament before these renovations I was invited to dinner and there The more mundane fuctions of the library, were buckets around in place to catch the rain- such as newspaper clippings and keeping up-to- water. Whoever started the developments, both date with Press releases, are very much needed Governments completed them. There was by members and members appreciate the very nothing in the newspaper or the media to professional manner in which these services are criticise or to condemn the respective Govern- provided. We have a high regard for the people ments for that. in the library. Unfortunately, we tend just to run in and out of the library without taking the At the last Constitutional Convention, which opportunity to talk with the staff there a great I hope will not be the last, we were provided deal, so I take this opportunity to thank them with office accommodation in the Queensland for their work. In this age of information tech- Parliament. It was in the recess, and we were nology it still amazes me how we can store able to observe how reasonable accommo- information and then retrieve it so quickly. We dation was provided for members, their staff, can very quickly obtain copies offlansardfrom and equipment, all on the same floor so that other Parliaments. It is quite incredible. there was no running around. I can understand the difficulties The present trend is for members to have any Treasurer has in attempting to improve the fa- electorate offices. This costs money. The cilities and buildings in reluctantly introduced this Parliament House. Treasurer's predecessor When the recent development plans for the that, and his counterparts in the other maj or Parliament were political panies would not think about it. I do announced the Government very quickly backed off, but at some stage some not think one necessarily has to have an elec- improvement needs. to be made to our facilities torate office to give sufficient service, particu- here. larly in the metropolitan area. I can easily serve my constitutents from Parliament House. I do not accept the lavish style of the new If the Government chooses not to incur this Parliament House in Canberra. Already as a expense of electorate offices, I cannot under- nation we are spending too much on people stand the disadvantage we with electorate and facilities located in that one area. As a offices here in Parliament House have to suffer person who believes in a true Federation with from the point of view of working conditions. the States having their own responsibilities, I Most of us here cannot even have air-con- would like to see the size of Canberra-both 4869 4868[ASSEMBLY] the number of people and the physical facilities dustrial Development. Despite the tremendous there-cut right back. Certainly the new Parlia- change of fields in which he is working as a ment House there is far too lavish. lawyer, he is doing his job with understanding Mr Mensaros: That is the other extreme. and competence. Mr COURT: Parliament House in Perth is Perhaps there is no-one here who would re- one extreme and Parliament House in member the time when a motion was Canberra is the other. introduced by Hon. John Tonkin for the ap- pointment of a Parliamentary Commissioner. Over the next few years I hope we take a At the time I opposed the motion and sensible approach to upgrading our facilities maintained that the responsibilities the rather than a lavish approach of the sort we see Ombudsman was expected to fulfil ought to in Canberra. One facet of the upgrading of our have been met by members of Parliament mak- facilities here is to ensure that the old part of ing representations to the Government. How- Parliament House is retained in its old ever, the institution of Parliamentary Com- splendour of the era in which it was built. Over missioner was finally accepted by virtually the years we have added to it and put in a every parliamentary democracy and it appears cubbyhole here and there. What it needs is a today that most people could not envisage good restoration job. existing without such a position. We need better facilities not just for mem- We have been lucky with the three incum- bers of Parliament but for the staff who work bents who have filled this office over the years. here. Members Of Parliament do not spend all One had a very short tenure in office but their working even hours here, but the staff do, and he did a very good job. An example of his they are presently working in unreasonable ability concerned a questionable responsibility conditions. that he considered the then Metropolitan This should really be a place worthy of show- Water Authority had in a situation where ing to visitors, but it is too cramped to be a leaking pipes were causing damage to the prem- show place. Although it would be a difficult ises of a small businessman. The Act under decision for any Government, we need an which the authority operated indicated that upgrading programme implemented to im- negligence by the MWA should have to be prove the Parliament. We need to be able to proven by the claimant. The claimant went to provide a better image to international visitors. the Ombudsman to put his case. I did not think It is a sad day (hat it is thought we must go to the matter came strictly within the jurisdiction extreme lengths to provide security in our so- of the Ombudsman, but he took the trouble to ciety. I would not like us to get to the stage see the Minister of the day and perhaps very reached in West Germany where, for instance, cleverly showed what be could possibly do with if one wishes to speak with a manager in a bank publicity and pointed out that the Minister had one needs to go through an elaborate screening the right to allocate an ex gratia payment which procedure and must enter a glass cage with would solve the problem. armed people everywhere. Things are reason- I have no doubt that Mr Eric Freeman is ably casual in this place now and I would like it equally as good although I have not had much to stay that way for many years to come. to do with him because we have been in Oppo- Mr BRIAN BURKE: I presume there is sition since he was appointed. Some of my con- nothing members want me to say except to in- stituents have complained to him and were sat- dicate that I have noted their comments and isfied with the work he did for them even will convey them to the Government. If it is though it was very difficult because undoubt- possible to act on any matter raised we will do edly the jurisdiction of the Ombudsman is so. Most of the contributions consisted of per- much narrower than most people perceive or sonal points of view on different matters. some people think it ought to be. Division 2 put and passed. Division 3 put and passed. Division 3: Parliamentary Commissioner for Division 4: Premier and Cabinet, Administrative Investigations, $483 000- $9 830 000- Mr MENSAROS: I take this opportunity to Mr MacKINNON: I have asked the commend the work done by the Parliamentary Treasurer several questions about Government Commissioner. I had the good fortune to work cars. He indicated that I should refer to the with him for about six years when he was an public accounts to obtain my information. My agreement officer with the Department of In- questions related to the cost increases of about [Wednesday, 26 November l986J]86 4869

40 to 50 per cent over the last two or three to an end. We have never seen the results of the years. 1 also asked how many cars are in that scheme and much as I have tried, 1 have service now and how many were there in received no answer from the Treasurer about it. February 1983. The Treasurer refused to pro- Recently the Treasurer said he intended to vide the answer. I was told, at one stage, to ring reduce the number of Government employees his office. I rang and was told to put the ques- by three per cent this year. We have never been tion on the Notice Paper. I did so and there has able to find out what the number of employees been deathly silence. is. Obviously the Treasurer has also experi- Mr Clarko: Because they don't want to enced some frustration in trying to obtain those answer the question. figures, but it is up to him as the chief execu- tive officer to get the figures. I sought them by Mr MacKINNON: I think that might be the every method, but have received no answers. I case. Why are we not entitled to the answers to have been charged with being mischievous by these questions? the Premier, 1 was told the figures were too Mr Brian Burke: I have that information. difficult to prepare, and later that the answer would be supplied in due course, It never Mr MacKINNON: I would appreciate hear- turned up. ing it in due course. I have questions relating to items 13, 14, and 15. In each of those cases the We have figures that indicate that, in the votes have dropped quite significantly. Item 13 early days of this Government's admin- refers to American Liaison Activities. What is istration, there were about 96 000 employees, that about? give or take a few. I was surprised, though, when I endeavou red to find out the figures by Secondly, item 14 refers to Women's approaching the Australian Bureau of Stat- Interests Division. Why has that vote fallen istics. and to what activities does it refer? Item 15 refers to the Women's Information and Mr. Brian Burke: I tried to point out how Referral Exchange. That vote has also fallen unfair it was of, I think, the Leader of the Op- and I want to know why. position and the member for Mt Lawley, to quote figures from the ABS and not quote the Under this Division, the Auditor General figures as a result of the changes that took place has made comments about decision-makers between 1983 and 1986. the year re- lunches and indicated that during Mr RUSHTON: I acknowledged that change, ceipts totalled $77 000 and payments but there was no reply in the second reading amounted to $86 433. Why are these lunches debate on the Budget. being held at the taxpayers' expense? Why has the Treasurer not extended the Leader of the Mr Brian Burke: I did reply. I went through Opposition, as a matter of courtesy, an invi- the whole question in reply to the Budget de- tation to participate in one of those lunches as bate. its guest speaker? The Leader of the Opposition Mr RUSHTON: I must have missed it. I is a decision-maker and, if the Government is went to the library to follow through some fig- even-handed in its approach and in spending ures and the only figures that the Public Service taxpayers' funds, I cannot see why the Oppo- Board would give were those applying on 30 sition should not be afforded an equal oppor- September 1986. It indicated that there were tunity if, as the Treasurer indicated in public, 16 930 employees employed under the Public he has nothing to fear from the Opposition. Service Act. Wages for ministerial staff totalled Mr RUSHTON: My query relates to the $78 450. These figures do not apply to full-time number of employees working for the Govern- equivalents. The PSB does not keep figures for ment. I think the reduction in the number of all statutory authorities and does not collate Government employees has been, one of the- them in one total. major issues taken on by the Treasurer. Mem- Would not the Treasurer agree that we need bers will remember that in 1983 the Treasurer a base from which to start? When I was in introduced a scheme whereby only 50 per cent charge of the Transport portfolio, I had figures of employees retiring or resigning would be for each month so that if there had been any replaced. That was not very different from the questions I could have given the answer and scheme I introduced when I was in charge of been glad to do so. Those figures were a the Transport portfolio. I therefore looked for- measuring stick of the progress made. The ward to the results of that scheme. Apparently Treasury Department in my time the scheme ran only until 1984 and then came complimented me as Minister for Transport for 4870 4870[ASSEMBLY] a reduction in demand for its budget assess- Mr RUJSHTON: The Treasurer was rather ment. The reduced Government employee fig- cavalier about his attidlude when he said in the ures that applied to that portfolio in my term Press recently that he did not know the exact were 2 500 across the board but in Westrail number of Government employees. I felt for they went down fronm 10 150 to 8 600 at the the Treasurer because he made that sort of time we went out of office. The figure is now statement. It is my belief that the Government down to 6 600, so the policy is continuing, would have started with the 50 per cent re- Despite that success, the figure given by the duction in replacement and asked what are the Australian Bureau of Statistics shows there has numbers in order to ascertain the success of its been a blow-out so it is totally different to the endeavours. The Government did not get any figure we expected. result from its action. Mr Brian Burke: If you look at page 4514 of The other day the Minister for Transport was last Wednesday's H-ansardyou will find what I critical of me when I asked a question about said. the number of Government employees. I was Mr RUSHTON: You claimed that the mem- trying to measure the success of my successor. her for Mt Lawley and the member- Mr Brian Burke: For the first time in this Mr Brian Burke: I am not sure but 1 think it State we are getting down to a proper basis of was the member for Mt Lawley. He used fig- trying to calculate in full-time equivalents, the ures without qualifying them in any way. I number of people who work for the Govern- pointed that out when you qualified them ac- nment, cording to the ABS' adv ice- Mr RUSHTON: It was working when I was a Mr RUJSHTON. I qualified them. Government Minister. Mr Brian Burke: I must not have heard your Mr Brian Burke: It depends on the interpret- qualification. Certainly the whole point was ation of the definition. Say you have a full-time answered. We used the figures for 1982-8 3 and worker who receives one-third of his pay from included extra people this year not previously the State Government and two-thirds from the included. Commonwealth grant, is he a State Govern- Mr RUSHTON: Using the old method the ment worker? figure would have been 109 700 employees and Mr RUSHTON: it is worked out on a full- using the new method the figure is 114 900. In time equivalent and that is what we did. June 1986 the figure was 123 000; that is, an increase of 9 000. During the Government's Mr Brian Burke: That is what the argument terms in office there has been a decrease of is about. 2 000 employees in Westrail. I thought that the Mr MacKinnon- It took you four years. scheme the Government introduced to replace only 50 per cent of public servants who retired Mr Brian Burke: It has taken us three years was practical. However, despite all that the fig- to get a comparable basis. No-one is perfect, ure has escalated. It has flat been controlled. you live and learn. We can compare like with like. Mr RUSHTON: When we were in Govern- Mr Brian Burke: That is not the case. The ment it was working in the area of transport. ABS figures include workers at tertiary insti- Mr Brian Burke: It may have been working tutions who are not State Government workers in transport, but it was not working across and workers in all sorts of areas where the Government in the Public Service Board. Government is not responsible as the em- ployer. The ABS includes them as Government Mr RUSHTON: I used to question the Pub- workers in its figures. There may have been an lic Service Board about its retraining pro- increase in employment, but it distorts the grammes. I came from a private enterprise programmes other figure. system which had retraining which were effective. I can understand the Mr RUSHTON: We are looking at the total Treasurer's frustration. He has been respon- number of Government employees. sible for this area in the last four years. The Mr Brian Burke: If you compare like with Treasurer had a tremendous amount of pub- like and if part of your like is not our responsi- licity when he said he would cut the Public bility, and that part of your like expands dra- Service numbers. He received the reward for matically, when you compare it with a sub- his intentions, but he did not produce the sequent figure you may have a distortion. goods. [Wednesday, 26 November 19861 474871

Following this debate I would like the In order to obtain results we must determine Government to determine a true base. I would the progress week by week or month by month. appreciate it if at three or six monthly intervals We must be able to determine that the pro- I could be told, in answer to a question in this grammes the Government has set in train are Chamber what is the number in the Public Ser- working. It is a joke in the community that the vice. Government has brought in all sorts of schemes Mr Brian Burke: I hope we reach the stage and they have not changed things one bit. that you can ask in this Chamber on a weekly It has certainly been of value to me to have basis and when the Parliament is not sitting the Treasurer react to me to some degree, but it that you can ring the Public Service Board and is unsatisfactory to go on year after year not obtain that information. being able to determine the number of Govern- Mr RUSHTON: It is a painful exercise. It is ment employees and what it means to the very important in the progress of the economy Budget. of the State. Every 100 employees is worth $2 Mr CASH: I have taken the opportunity to million. For instance, when there was a de- read Hansard, page 4514 of 19 November. The crease in the number of employees of Westrail Treasurer was replying to the various members' from 10 150 to 8 160 it was calculated that it Budget speeches. I was not in the House at the was worth $30 million in the reduction of cost. time because I was representing the Leader of During my time in transport there was a de- the Opposition elsewhere. crease in the number of employees of 2 500 and that was worth $50 million. The Treasurer makes great play on the fact I suppose the Government is basing its fig- that there was a need to vary some of the fig- ures to take into account some changes that ures on a little less than 100 000 employees and had been made and the methodololy used to it is not using the ABS statistics figure of work out those figures. The Treasurer said in 123 000. 1 ask the Treasurer for an explanation this Chamber on 24 June 1986 that it was his of that figure to enable the Opposition to intention to reduce the measure the success of his endeavours. It is a Public Service by three worthy endeavour to run the State economi- per cent in the next 12 months. Perhaps I should qualify that because the words he used cally and efficiently. I have been in a minis- were, "Government employees". As it is now terial position where I applied the same rules to five months since he made that statement can measure the results. I did the same in regard to he given an unequivocal guarantee to the land. There does not seem to be any measuri ng Chamber that there are fewer Government em- stick for land and the reservations of lots have ployees today being paid by the Government been decreased. I will raise that matter at a than there were on 24 June 1986? later stage of this debate. Based on the ABS figures there has been a No matter how many variations we make to blow-out in the number of Government em- adjust to those changes in methodology, there ployees. The Treasurer said that the figure does has been an increase in the number of Govern- not include a number of agencies and I ask him ment employees since the Treasurer made that what agencies are not included. Is a particular statement to the House. I would be very commission not involved? These workers are interested in his comments. I have read his still Government employees and form pant of comments on page 4514 of Hansard. I am the State's wages costs. aware of his claims in respect of the changes in methodology, but my question stands irrespec- Mr Brian Burke: That is the point, they are tive of those comments. not. The university people are not. Mr RUSHTON: Are they included in this Mr COURT: The Department of the Premier figure?, and Cabinet has become one of the growth de- partments in this State. When the Treasurer Mr Brian Burke: Yes. If you read the qualifi- first took over, he made a play about the fact cation you would know that. that the Government would restructure the Mr RUSHTON: I have read it, but I am roles and the functions of the Department of suggesting that the Treasurer provides an ex- the Premier and Cabinet. That was a few years planation about how he measures the Govern- ago. We still seem to have a considerable in- ment's programme. If it is $96 000 or $105 000 crease in the expenditure of this department. I we can start from that figure. Let us get a basis would have thought that the Department of the on which to work and the credibility of the Premier and Cabinet should set an example. Government's programme can be ascertained. The Treasurer should realise that many people 4872 4872[ASSEMBLY] are struggling and that these are tough econ- lot of time out of the country. I am not saying omic times. Even his Federal colleagues have that he should not do so, but I would like to see started to accept that. The Department of the a breakdown. The member for Floreat a few Premier and Cabinet should start being a bit months said that it would be good to do a cost frugal and cut back on its functions. benefit analysis of the travel undertaken by It is now time for restraint and I would like many of these Ministers to see whether the tax- the Estimates to reflect a cutback by the De- payer is getting his money's worth. partment of the Premier and Cabinet, Instead, I repeat that if any department should be I see that 56 people work in the policy sec- setting the way and showing restraint in these retariat of the department. The department is difficult times, it should be the Department of becoming a sort of nerve centre. Any the Premier and Cabinet. The Premier might centralised, socialist Government has to have a be losing touch with how tough it is for many policy secretariat. I do not go along with that people and businesses. The average worker has sort of thing. Any Premier who has to have so seen his standard of living decline and he wants many people around him eventually shows a to see an example being set. That example has sign of weakness. certainly not been set in the Estimates we are Mr Brian Burke: No man is an island. debating for the Department of the Premier Mr COURT: Most successful chief executive and Cabinet. officers-which is what the Premier is; he is Mr BLAIKIE: My comments relate to the running the State-tend to have a very small various methods under which this Division and crew around them. They tend to have the key others are considered in the Budget. Under this decision-makers around them and delegate re- Division we have the Executive Government, sponsibility to them. They operate in a smaller, the Premier as head of that Government, the flexible operation. However, the Premier has Premier as head of Cabinet-and the responsi- built up a big, centralised policy secretariat, bility for the management of the State ema- and he wants to control all sorts of functions nates from the Premier through his Cabinet and activities. and filters through ultimately to the people of Mr Gordon Hill: There is a bit of a difference Western Australia. 1 am concerned about the between running a company and running a way in which the Parliament is given the op- State. portunity to scrutinise the Budget papers. As far as I am aware, the current method of con- Mr COURT: There is no difference. The sideration of the Budget in the Parliament has principles of efficient operations are the same. been the same for many years. The Govern- For example. I have to get a new electorate ment may see fit to change the current pattern office. That administrative function will be car- of debate. ried out by the Department of the Premier and Cabinet. I do not think that the department The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (Mr Thomas): should be involved in that rather mundane Order! Can the member tell us how this relates matter. to the items before us? The discussion must relate to one of the items within the Division I would also like to know the effect of the fringe benefits tax on this year's Budget. One of that we are discussing. the items in this division concerns motor car Mr BLAIKIE: I am speaking to Division 4, expenses and people's different entitlements. I with respect to total expenditure. I am ques- would appreciate it if the Treasurer could give tioning the Parliament's ability to raise a logi- an estimate of the estimated additional cost of cal argument against the expenditure that has the fringe benefits tax for this department or been sought by the Department of the Premier across all the Government's operations for the and Cabinet. year, taking account of the recent modifi- The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Standing cations made to the tax. Orders do not permit debate on any item for Last year a vote of $90 000 was made for which no provision is made in the Division. ministerial travel and incidentals. Actual ex- BLAIKIE: I am questioning the expendi- penditure last year was $ 150 000 and it is Mr estimated to be $166 000 this year. Could we ture of $9 830 000. get an item ised breakdown of the distances that The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You must di- Ministers have been travelling or how much rect your comments to an item for which pro- each Minister has spent on travel? The Minis- vision is made in the Division, not an item for ter for Minerals and Energy seems to spend a which provision is not made. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986J187 4873

Mr BLAIKIE: I do not want to stifle other I also suggest to the Deputy Chairman that at members from having the opportunity to speak four o'clock tomorrow morning, when we are to an item, but I will raise the comments I wish labouring through the last Budget items, it will to make in relation to the ceremonial and hos- be even more apparent that it is difficult to pitality item. obtain iriforrnaton on behalf of the taxpayers we represent. The principle of a Budget is for I do not want to stifle debate for members the Government to seek the approval of Parlia- who may wish to speak to a certain item. ment for expenditure and for it to be approved The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (Mr Thomas): on behalf of the taxpayers. If the Parliament is There will be an opportunity to speak to not prepared to give that approval, the Govern- specific items;, I was making the point that the ment must take other steps. This could lead to discussion must be related to something an election. contained within the Division. In the area of expenditure on ceremonial and Mr BLAIKIE: It will be related to expendi- hospitality there was an overrun last year of ture within the Division dealing with Premier $85 000. The Auditor General's report and Cabinet and I will specifically relate it to indicated that the $85 000 overspent was expenditure under ceremonial and hospitality, attributed to a requirement to present a higher estimated at $ 365 000. profile resulting in additional functions undertaken on behalf of the Governiment and, I have been concerned for some time that the in addition, the costs of transporting United Parliament does not get a proper account of the States sailors were substantially higher than expenditure sought by Government. A system forecast. of review committees of the Parliament to What is the cost of transporting United examine the various items put forward for ex- States sailors? Why are they transported free of penditure is long overdue. It is all very well for charge, if that is the case? What is the expect- the Government to present to Parliament a ancy of cost in this part of the Budget for the book containing the Estimates of Revenue and 1986-87 Estimates? Was the additional expen- Expenditure. The Treasurer will comment on diture in the 1985-86 Budget a result of an that expenditure in due course, but we need to election profile? understand that these estimates are prepared by the Treasurer's staff or by the staff of vani- I refer to the excellent launch the Govern- ous Ministers. ment arranged for phase 2 of the "Bunbury 2000" project. is that cost taken from this part Rather than put the Treasurer or respective of the Budget, or from another part? Will the Ministers under scrutiny, it would be more sat- cost of the "Albany Tomorrow" project come isfactory for the heads of departments to ac- from this part of the Budget? Will it come from company the Treasurer or Ministers to explain the Premier's vote or from another Minister's why a certain Budget item has been drawn up. vote? This would not necessarily take place in this It is an absolute disgrace for the Government Chamber; such debates could take place in to use taxpayers' funds, as it did in the ease of various committee rooms. I have followed very its launch of the "Bunbury 2000" project in closely the House of Representatives and the December last year, for a purely political pur- Senate in their analyses of the Federal Budget pose. papers- I do not want to give the Federal Government accolades for its Budget, but at Mr Read: AMl least Federal members of Parliament have a Mr BLAIKIE: The member for Mandurah better understanding of how the Budget is can say "Ab" if he wants to, but we are talking drawn up and the reasons for proposed expen- about the expenditure of taxpayers' funds. diture. _Mr Read: Did you go to that launch and did The role played by members of Parliament in you have a meal? this Budget debate is to ensure that the expen- Mr BLAIKIE: Yes, I enjoyed the beef diture of taxpayers' funds, for example Wellington and the local wines along with the $365 000 for ceremonial and hospitality pur- other 300 to 400 people present. The Premier poses, is bona fie *and justified. Members of gave a reasonably polished performance on Parliament have a responsibility to scrutinise that occasion. However, I was certainly sorry in. these Estimates. However, under our system it the light of day; it appeared to be a political is not only impractical but also extremely diffi- exercise. The brochure published for that oc- cult to do so. casion, which explained the "Bunbury 2000" 4874 4874[ASSEMBLY] project, contained photographs of the members sought, and creates a greater awareness in all for Mitchell and Bunbury and indicated they members of Parliament as to how a Budget is were champions of the cause. They may have drawn up. been, but other members of Parliament from But more importantly, it offers wider protec- that region should also have been featured in tion to the taxpayer, and surely this debate is the brochure. It was rather coincidental that a all about ensuring that taxpayers' money is be- function of that nature should be held prior to ing spent wisely. It is my contention that this an election. I do not question the holding of the style of investigation is now unsatisfactory, and function but comment was made afterwards that the Parliament must change. The Govern- that the occasion had a highly political flavour. ment must support the change to a more Mr P. J. Smith: I was there and I do not agree detailed analysis and investigation of the with that. It was no more political than the one Budget papers. Sir Charles Court held at Bunbury. Mr BRIAN BURKE: Firstly, in response to Mr BLAIICIE: What a goose the member is, the Leader of the Opposition, the number of everybody paid to go to that. By all means, motor vehicles has increased to 66 from 46 in Governments of the day can carry out exercises the four-year period 1983-86. That is due to a of hospitality, promotion or whatever. number of reasons including, for example, ex- Mr Brian Burke: I did not think it was very tra vehicles provided to committee chairmen political and I gave instructions that all Liberal and to Department of the Premier and Cabinet and Country Party members were to be invited. officers. I also made sure that credit was paid to Liberal In respect of items 13, 14, and 15 mentioned Party members in the brochure distributed. It by the Leader of the Opposition, the decrease would have been counterproductive for it to be for American Liaison Activities is due to a de- political. cision by the Government to terminate the ser- Mr BLAIKIE: I acknowledge the points vices provided by the United States liaison made by the Premier. officer, Mr Arthur Reef. Comments were made about the "Bunbury Mr MacKinnon: So that service is no longer 2Q00" document that it had a very political being carried out? bias and flavour, yet the taxpayers paid for it. Mr BRIAN BURKE: I understand that it fin- The member for Bunbury has said what the ished j ust prior to PacRim. IJam not su re of t he previous Government may have done in date of termination, but that is my understand- Bunbury. It did have a seminar down there, ing. That may not be the case, but the decrease with some 500 people attending, but they paid of $33 000 is due to a decision to terminate their own way. I am not sure whether Sir Arvi those services. Parbo was paid attendance money or an air The decrease in the provision for the fare, but he certainly turned up. I went, and I Women's Interests Division is due mainly to damned-well know I paid, as did 500 other the ceasing of consultancy arrangements and a people. That is the difference. reduction in travelling by staff. These re- What we are talking about is the expenditure ductions have been offset to some extent by of taxpayers' money. The Government has cost escalations. spent last year's lot-that has gone down the The decrease in the provision for the drain. There is an $85 000 increase in the Women's Information and Referral Exchange amount it is seeking this year. reflects mainly accommodation costs I believe there should be a wider obligation transferred to the Office of Government Ac- and responsibility on the Government to allow commodation in 1986-87; so that is simply a the Parliament to have an opportunity to inves- transferred item. tigate in mare detail the expenditure sought. I do not believe expenditure can be investigated As to the request by the Leader of the Oppo- in this type of debate. I repeat to the Treasurer sition that he be afforded the status of guest speaker at a decision-makers that an investigation or an analysis of the kind luncheon, I will the Senate and the House of Rep- consider that, although I do not recall that any made by State politicians have been speakers at those is needed. That is important for resentatives luncheons. the Government, makes for greater responsi- bility by the heads of department who must Mr MacKinnon: I think you addressed one explain to their Ministers why certain items are or two. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986J 487587

Mr BRIAN BURKE: 1 may have addressed realistic attempt to put in place the modemn one; I cannot recall. But in three or four years I management technology, that covers em ploy- cannot recall that we have made a practice of ment as one example, that is absolutely necess- it. ary to manage a big staff. Mr Court: We get suspicious when you can- Mr Rushton: You are taking a stand which is not recall like that. not necessary either. You believe the dragnet Mr BRIAN BURKE: Well, I have had no approach is necessary, but I do not think it is. notice of this, and I cannot recall. I normally We need a common basis without any fancy introduce the people who speak at the lunch- professionalism about it. It is a matter of eons. They have included many people who simply statistics. could not be classed as Government sup- Mr BRIAN BURKE: I do not know porters. We try not to make them political, and whether have it is a dragnet approach but we are getting anyone who has attended them would down that they were not. to a basis that is understandable, consist- reported back Bob Ansett ent, and easily obtainable. and Arvi Parbo have not endeared themselves to the Labor movement. Mr Rushton: We seem to be frightening the Mr MacKinnon: One of my friends went, Public Service by letting the Minister for In- and he will never go again. That was the one at dustrial Relations loose on it. which Bob Hawke spoke. He was a bit political- Mr BRIAN BURKE: He gets on quite well Mr BRIAN BURKE: Yes, but he is the with them. I hope we will have that infor- Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister has to mation shortly and be able to give it to the be a member of some party or another. In any Opposition on a regular and consistent basis. event, I will certainly consider the request by the Leader of the Opposition. In reply to the member for Mt Lawley-and I accept that he did acknowledge the need to The members for Dale and Mt Lawley both adjust the figures he gave the other evening-I raised similar points to do with figures for em- cannot give a guarantee about the figures being ployment. I apologise to the member for Dale, lower at any time than previously. The process but I have not been trying to mislead or delay is in train and I am confident we will achieve. him when answering his question. However, as our three per cent target reduction in Govern- the House should know and as I have ment employment; but I do not know what the indicated, both of the member for Dale's ques- figures were at any given date. tions were addressed to me on 18 November, which is not very long ago. I indicated that we Mr Cash: That has been covered. I asked you were collating the information he requested, a question some time ago about temporary em- and were collating it in response to a query ployees. We are going back again to what you from the member for Mt Lawley. All I can say have been mentioning to the member for Dale; is that it is true that until this present period no that is, that it does seem strange that while you Government, whether Labor or Liberal, has can pay people on a regular weekly basis we are ever seriously addressed the question of not able to determine whether they are full- Government employment. It is only now that t ime, part-ti me, or temnporary employees. the Public Service Board is introducing what is Mr BRI AN BU RKE: We are able to. called a PIN system-the Personnel Infor- mation Management system-that we will Mr Cash: You are not able to give me the have access to the sorts of figures members answer. require. opposite Mr BRIAN BURKE: We are in the process Mr Rushton: We did it from department to of doing so. If the member had listened to what department. We did. it.-in. my department. I said to the member for. Dale, he, would know Mr BRIAN BURKE: We found that different that "we are in the process of compiling the departments used different bases for collecting information in reply to questions from the the information. When we totalled it up, member for Mt Lawley". They are the ques- depending on how the bases changed, we tions the member is now talking about. arrived at conflicting figures that made no Mr Cash: The temporary employees I asked sense whatsoever, for either monthly or some- you about some time ago? times six-monthly periods. With due respect to the period the member for Dale spent in Mr BRIAN BURKE: Yes, questions 1545 Government, it is true to say that there was no and 1549. 4876 4876ASSEMBLY)

Mr Cash: The point I make is that it seems Mr Court: I will settle for Minister by Minis- rather strange that the Government is not able ter. to put its finger on the number of temporary Mr BRIAN BURKE: I will consider the re- employees it has from week to week. quest, and whether it is an itemnised break- Mr BRIAN BURKE: I tried to explain to the down, or just telling the member how much it member previously, through the member for is going to be- Dale, that itlls strange and unsatisfactory, and Mr Court: Not that sort of "consider". Can I is a situation we are redressing as quickly as we get an answer? can with the Personnel Information Manage- ment system. Mr Mensaros: In our time ministerial travel was paid from the departmental vote Mr Cash: Can you give us some indication of when you might be able to come up with the Mr BRIAN BURKE: I suspect it is possible figures? They are pretty important. to give the costs fairly easily. Mr BRIAN BURKE: I am not saying they Mr Mensaros: Is it all travel or something are not important. We have put the process in special? train by writing through the Public Service Mr BRIAN BURKE: The member for Board to all departments asking them to com- Slorest has been here long enough to know that mit themselves to the three per cent target re- giving the cost of a certain service or expendi- duction levels. I do not know when the process ture is different from item ising all the travel will be completed to a stage where we can say, involved. "This is the number of employees we now have." Mr Men saros: Does that cover travel of all Ministers, or is it additional? The member for Nedlands spoke about set- ting the lead, and I will not comment on that. Mr BRIAN BURKE: No, that item does not, We try in the Department of the Premier and and there are pans of the ministerial or depart- Cabinet to set an example. ment votes which also include travel. I am advised that the total cost of the firinge Mr Court: This is all ministerial travel is it? benefits tax is between $4.5 million and $5 Mr BRIAN BURKE: Not at all. Some million. That is the total CRF cost. An itemised officers travel with the Minister on the depart- breakdown of ministerial travel was requested. ment's vote, and some travel on the ministerial I am not prepared to give that because as pre- vote. vious Treasurers have said, I am not prepared to assist with fishing expeditions. It takes a lot Mr MacKinnon: Isn't that a very confusing way to do it if you are trying to exercise budget- of work and time. ary control? I thought you had implemented Mr Court: What about Minister by Minister? restrictions on travel because you were con- Mr BRIAN BURKE: I will consider it, but I cerned about the cost. You must have some have consistently adopted the policy of pre- system of ascertaining the cost. vious Governments; if there is a specific con- Mr BRIAN BURKE: What happens is that cern members should ask and we will answer. requests for travel overseas for all officers go to The question was raised about charter travel. the Minister for Budget Management and from Members would be amazed at the amount of him on recommendation to the Treasurer in work involved in confirming the figures in the some cases. That is where the control is first instance. exercised, and that seems to me to be a reason- Mr Court: Hang on. With all this modern able way of doing so. technology and the accounting systems you Mr Rushton: You are not looking at the bot- have, I would have thought it would be one of tom line. You do not know what is happening; the easiest exercises to find out how much each you do not know the results. of the 17 Ministers spends on travel. You can Mr BRIAN BURKE: One does because at get on the phone, ring up the department and Budget time one provides a certain amount of they will tell you. expenditure for that item. That is the control. Mr BRIAN BURKE: It is a bit different. An One budgets for it and tries to stay within the itemised breakdown which is what the member budget. Any Minister who sends in a request was requesting, and a figure for expenditure on for travel which exceeds his budget has his re- travel is different. quest scrutinized much more closely. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986] 474877

Mr Rushton: You would have had a much great commercial advantage to this State from smaller budget if you were successful in doing the visits of the sailors. If members speak to what you said you would do. traders and shopkeepers they will say that dur- Mr BRIAN BURKE: In relation to the query ing the visits of US sailors their turnover rises raised by the member for Floreat. item 16 in- dramatically. I think free bus fares, and I have cludes the cost of air fares and travel allow- consistently maintained this within the Labor ances for the Premier for travel within Party, are part of a good ally policy which is Australia and overseas; the Premier and his returned to us many times over. wife's official visits within Australia; air fares Mr Court: Is Jo Vallentine aware of this? and travel allowances for the Parliamentary Mr BRIAN BURKE: Yes, she is. Secretary to the Cabinet; the cost of the Premier's home telephones, official postage, MrT Rushton: In a general transport scene free travel costs for members nominated by the bus fares do not work. Premier to represent him at specific official Mr BRIAN BURKE: But these are for functions, and some other sorts of things. specific visitors. Let me just go back to the itemised break-up. MrT Court: If she knew there were free bus I am not committing myself to providing that, fares she would be up in the gallery. but I will ask Mr Bow to look at the query and Mr BRIAN BURKE: She knows that. advise me on what he thinks he can reasonably provide. However, members opposite should Reference was made to election profile and not expect me to help them do their job on a the use of taxpayers' money. I do not want to get into that sort of bear pit argument and tell political level. the Opposition what it did and defend what we Mr Court: You had a vote of $150 000 last did. I am not so silly as to try to spend tax- year, and this year you budgeted $ 166 000. payers' money on election purposes because I Mr BRIAN BURKE: The only note I have is do not believe it is politically productive. I do that the increase was $15 088, and I am told not think the "Bunbury 2000" stage 2 was a that it reflects cost escalation in travel and inci- political exercise at all. There were more Lib- dentals. That is what the Treasury tells me. eral members there than Labor members as far The member for Vasse raised a query about as I know. The guest list was not political in the way in which the Budget process is carried any way; it was a matter of the important out. I will refer that to Treasury and seek its people from shires and local authorities coming advice about the suggested changes to which to the launch of a policy which rightly con- the member referred. It may be a good idea for cerned them. him to discuss with the Under Treasurer or the Mr Blaikie: And to "Albany tomorrow". Minister for Budget Management the sort of Mr BRIAN BURKE: The same thing applies. process he thinks is appropriate. I remind him I would not charge people to come to those that the Financial Administration and Audit functions; it would be the height of effrontery Act will require departmental heads to report to ask people to pay money. Many of them are annually on a functional basis to the Parlia- volunteers who work in the shires and local ment in future, so there will be additional in- authorities free of charge, giving of their own formation. That may not go as far as the mem- time and expense. I would rather not have the ber wants. launch than charge them $25 to, $30 a head to In relation to the cost of US sailors, we do come along. not know what the figure is. We will try to Mr Blaikie: You are establishing a precedent. advise the member in due course. We have had the argument lots of times about why they are Mr BRIAN BURKE: If the member calls it carried free on Transperth buses. On balance establishing a precedent, we are. we see it as part of the good ally relationship we Mr MacKinnon: 1 thought paying for adver-; have with the United States, and it reflects tisements on television in the name of the ALP something th-y do for us, I am told. was blatant. Mr Crane: The bus is running anyway. Mr BRIAN BURKE: That is why we decided Mr BRIAN BURKE: There may be some to do that, because I thought it was political special buses as well. In any case, they do as and could be construed that way; so we paid for much or more for us when OUr boats and sailors it. go to their shores, although that is less frequent Mr MacKinnon: You paid for the film which of course. In purely commercial terms there is a was screened under the banner of the ALP. 4878 4878(ASSEM BLYl

Mr BRIAN BURKE: No, that is not true. Mr BRIAN BURKE: In this item there has Mr MacKinnon: Ask the member for Albany. been a decrease of $5 488. Those persons re- ferred to by the member for Ned lands are not Mr BRIAN BURKE: There is a difference. included in that figure. The figure of $ 140 000 Mr MacKinnon: I don't think; I know. refers essentially to materials used for State Mr BRIAN BURKE: If the Leader of the promotion and publications, advertising, pub- Opposition knows, he knows. I am pleased he licity photographs, reference materials, tele- is so all-wise. It must be good never to have any vision and radio monitoring, the purchase of self-doubt. newspapers, travelling for media officers and the general maintenance of media equipment. Mr MacKinnon: On that issue there is none. Item 16: Ministerial Travel and Incidentals- Mr DRIAN BURKE: In conclusion, the three per cent reduction in Governiment' employees, Mr COURT: The Treasurer has told the which is the most important issue touched Chamber that it is very difficult to give in for- upon in my view, is a target we think we can mation about ministerial travel. I would like meet by 30 June 1987. We may be wrong; we the Treasurer to provide information to show may not meet it, but we hope and think we can. what each Minister and his officers have spent on travel this year and what they estimate to Item 4: Services and Contracts- spend next year. I am not asking for itemnised Mr MacKINNON: This item has increased accounts. from $487 968 to $594 000, which is a 22 per Mr BRIAN BURKE: It is not as easy as the cent increase. I ask the Treasurer the reason for member for Nedlands thinks. He will appreci- the increase. ate that some of the expenditure is spread Mr BRIAN BURKE: The increased pro- across CRIF departments and statutory vision is necessary to meet the cost of the authorities and, for that reason, it is not as Government's advertising master contract of simple as it first appears. However, I have $56 000 which was announced by Cabinet taken note of the member's request for a gen- some six or eight weeks ago, and the increase in eral break-up of travel expenses incurred by the annual legal charge made by the Crown Ministers. I will seek the necessary information Law Department of $37 000. from the Treasury and if it is available I will Mr MacKinnon: The Budget allocation went provide him with a copy. up. Division 4 put and passed. Mr BRIAN BURKE: That is only for this Division 5: Governor's Establishment, item. The Government's expenditure on adver- $1 069 000- tising will] be decreased as a result of the master contract. Does the member think it is the total Mr COURT: It is good politics to look after amount the Government spends on advertis- constituents and I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the Governor, Professor Reid and ing? Mrs Reid. I believe they are doing an extremely [tern 6: Maintenance of Plant Equipment, good job in their positions. etc- During the year I have attended many Mr MacKINNON: The expenditure on this official functions and Professor Reid and his item has increased from $40 815 to $134 000 wife are carrying out their roles in a capable which, on my calculation, is a 230 per cent manner and they are worthy of the positions increase. they hold. Mr BRIAN BURKE: The increase of We, in this State, are very lucky to have two $93 000 is to provide the full-year maintenance people who are very dedicated and who attend cost of computing equipment purchased during a continual string of engagements. They have a I1985-96. strenuous schedule to work to and they have to Item 10: Government Media Office- live with a great deal of protocol. They both Mr COURT: Does the Government Media have a very pleasant and happy outlook on life. Office include those journalists who work in I have heard the Governor speak on a num- the Department of the Premier and Cabinet. ber of occasions and it is obvious that his Do the other journalists employed by the Gov- speeches have been well researched and that he ernment come under this Budget allocation or puts a lot of effort into them. He never gives are they included separately in the Minister's. the impression that he is trying to rush through allocations? a speech. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986] 487947

We need the position of Governor and it is trying to cover such a large marketplace. I think one which I support. Professor Reid and his his brief includes also Hong Kong, Taiwan, and wife put a great amount of effort into that China. I think he has to look after- position and we should be grateful. Mr Brian Burke: When you say look after- Division 5 put and passed. Mr COURT: That is a good question. I do Division 6: Executive Council, $10-put and not know how he looks after- passed. Mr Brian Burke: You don't. Division 7: Tokyo Agency, $665 990- Mr COURT: But he does travel to those places. He travelled recently with the Minister Mr MacKINNON: My comments relate to for Minerals and Energy and his party when Divisions 7 and 8. When this Government they went to China. His job in Tokyo is to have came to office it indicated that it would change a presence on behalf of the Western Australian direction in regard to overseas representation. I Government. I believe other State Govern- understand significant changes have been made ments have a more substantial presence in a to the London agency and that the number of better location. staff has increased in this Budget. Mr Brian Burke: Our location is very good. From memory when this Government came Mr COURT: I am not worried about the to office there were four staff members in the location. It is the business and work that comes Tokyo agency and there are still four. The ma- out of the office that is more important. It is a jority of Western Australia's international very small office. One could not employ one trade is with Japan and Asian countries and it more person and fit him into that office.' is strange logic to think that our trade with Britain will continue in the future. At the re- Mr Brian Burke: That is frugal government. cent PacRim Conference attention was focused Mr COURT: In the Tokyo case it is frugal, on our trade with Japan and Asian countries. but in the London case it may be jobs for the boys. I ask the Treasurer the reason the Tokyo agency has retained the same number of staff, Mr Brian Burke: The London Agency has bearing in mind the potential growth in that been cut back well in excess of $1 million. I area and our newly sought-after, and soon to be think it is now about $600 000. established, links with China which could be Mr COURT: The figure for the London serviced by the Tokyo Agency. agency is $1.5 million. I know it had some Secondly, from an announcement I heard heavy expenses because of the redundancy pro- earlier, the London agency was to be signifi- vision. I do not want us to duplicate our over- cantly wound down in favour of establishing an seas representation. We have an office in increased representation in South-East Asia. Tokyo. I see Exim has seven representatives in overseas countries-Hong Kong, Malaysia, Mr COURT: I wish to back up the comments Saudi Arabia, the United Kingdom, Norway, made by the Leader of the Opposition. I made Germany, and Greece. They are representa- a point last year when we were discussing the tives, not offices. different imbalances between the Tokyo and Mr Brian Burke: That has been the reason for London agencies, and the Government said it the slow attention to Tokyo and other places to would be gradually changing the set-up of the try to get some sense into the duiplication. You London office. Major cutbacks in staff and big said yourself last night we had WAOPA, Exim, redundancy provisions had to be made in the the Department of Industrial Development, London office. I would have thought by now etc. we would see statistics to show we are concen- trating our efforts in the Asian region. Mr COURT: That is the point I want to mbake. It it important we do not have duili- I know a former Minister has been appointed cation and that we have effective represen- to the positic-i in London. I am sure there are a tation because the name of the game will be for few expenses required for us to have a proper our State to break into the markets of these presence in that city, which is important, but countries and it has to be done properly, in a Tokyo is also extremely important. professional way, and not in a fragmented way. I recently met the new representative-Tony Mr BRIAN BURKE: We have not been able Verrilli-and I was most impressed with the to move as quickly as we would like in respect calibre of this person who has a difficult job of Tokyo, China, Hong Kong, etc. The develop- 4880 4880[ASS EM BLY] ments in respect to China are very promising. WA House does occupy a prime location in We think we will be able to announce some The Strand. Yet, when one compares it to the established relationships in the very near fu- other State headquarters, one is entitled to be ture. We are attempting to wind back the quite concerned at the image we are projecting. London office. I understand there are now 16 It seems to me that if it is a marketing and or 18 people on the staff of that office. When business centre representing Western Australia, we were elected to Government I think the fig- surely it should give that image or impression ure was in excess of 30, but I am not positive. when one is walking down The Strand. That is In constant dollar terms there has been a sig- not the case at the moment. It is a fairly dowdy nificant reduction in the total cost of the building and the windows are certainly not London office. We will be turning our attention used to the maximum for marketing benefits. If towards that. one goes inside, it is even worse. The office layout is grossly inefficient and most of the Mr Mensaros interjected. staff presently employed would agree with that Mr BRIAN BURKE: Of the increase of proposition. In the front of the office there is a 17000 for Tokyo, $68 000 is for salary costs reading area where people from Western that include adjustments for variation in the Australia and other pants of the world can use exchange rate. We do not get many complaints. the facilities of the public library. The people are very good;, men like Tony At the same time, business people and guests Verrilli and others are excellent. They do not calling on the Agent General are required to complain but they obviously have problems. wait in that area until they are called forward to Item I: Salaries, Wages and Allowances- the Agent General's office, which is located on another floor. Mr COURT: How does one cope with the In my view, the furniture generally is in need tremendous difference in living costs in Tokyo of both maintenance and possible replacement. and in Western Australia as the currency has This is something to which the Treasurer may declined? With respect to the staffing cost, is wish to give consideration. I understand the that the area used to give assistance or modifi- Government leases the building but is respon- cation to the package to ensure that compar- sible for its maintenance. I am very conscious able levels of salary are paid? of the fact that this year cuts in spending are Mr BRIAN BURKE: Adjustments are made being implemented, but I think that in a cost- to salaries according to changed exchange rates efficient way there may be some advantages to on an agreed basis. We try as much as possible the State if we were prepared to commit some to keep abreast of exchange rates and not to let additional funds to that building. the staff suffer because the exchange rate vari- I do not know what sort of agreement exists ation means a reduction in real income. at the moment between the Crown and the State Government, but I believe that the State As far as other staffing costs are concerned, should be looking at spending some money so they include staff travel, workers' compen- that we can encourage additional business and sation, conference fees, etc., and in the case of general marketing through that office. I am the Tokyo agency, the official representative is sure the Treasurer would agree with me that entitled to one free trip to Australia once every the condition of WA House in London leaves a two years. I suppose that does help to overcome lot to be desired. I discussed earlier the layout some of the disadvantages of representing- and the general building. Inside, one of the especially if one is an expatriate-one's State problems is the plumbing arrangements. I or country in another country. know this is a matter of detail, but I believe it Division 7 put and passed. should be placed on the record that at the mo- ment, both visitors to the public library and Division 8: London Agency, $1 351 000- visitors calling on the Agent General must Mr CASH: I had the opportunity recently to share the same public toilet. That might sound be a guest at WA House in London and enjoyed a bit of a joke, but it is certainly no joke when the hospitality of our new Agent General, Ron there is a number of people waiting. I believe it Davies, his wife Frances, and daughter Ursula. is something the Treasurer might wish to con- Obviously there is a need to maintain that sider. office. I have taken note of the remarks made There is no question that we have an ex- by the Treasurer in respect to the reduction of tremely loyal staff working for the State of staff that has occurred in recent times. Western Australia in WA House. Kevin (Wednesday, 26 November 19861 484881

Skipworzh is currently the director in charge of Will the Treasurer investigate the matters I administration, and he is a very good adminis- raised last night and does he share my concern trator and public servant, He is, I believe, a about those matters? I would also like some former private secretary to the new Deputy information about staff "undergoing training". Leader of the Opposition. While Western If possible, I would like some information Australia House is located thousands of miles about the training programmes being used by from WA, there is a need for members to recog- the Public Service Board to try to lift and up- nise that it is the business centre in that area grade the standards of its employees. The Pub- for the Western Australian Government and lic Service Board is the largest single employer should be seen as such. in the State and obviously it should be leading the way in improving the performance of its Mr Brian Burke: I note what the member has employees. had to say. Mr CASH: I see there has been a reduction I would appreciate it if the Treasurer could for WA I-ouse and the official residence this inform the Chamber what outside organis- year. Last year there was a vote of $614 124; ations are assisting the Public Service Board in this year there is a vote of $364 000. Can the its job of improving the skills of its staff, in Treasurer advise me on just what this $364 000 particular the Treasurer might want to mention will be used for and whether he believes it will -the programmes now operating within the be sufficient to make the necessary structural Australian Institute of Management, which I and other changes to the building to make it a believe has designed special programmes to place which is more attractive to people calling help assist in this area. I am all for the Public on the WA Government in London? Service Board's initiatives to help its em- ployees and I am even more in favour of a Mr BRIAN BURKE: The decrease in the al- variety of outside organisations offering flexi- location is due mainly to additional expendi- bility and different types of training situations ture of $327 000 incurred in 1985-86; so we are to the Public Service and putting some compe- not now incurring that amount of expenditure tition in the marketplace. I am all for the again. That amount was spent on the develop- Government using the services of those people. ment and furnishing of the flat in Western Australia House for the Agent General. This Mr BRIAN BURKE: I will have another look decrease has been offset to some extent by a at the matters raised by the member for provision of $ 100 000 for essential repairs and Nedlands, but I do not have any cause to ques- renovations and also cost escalation and the tion Mr Easton's ability. From all reports, he fall in the Australian dollar against the pound seems to be doing an excellent job on the Pub- stirling. lic Service Board and I think the addition of his I do not know whether that will be enough to private sector skills to the Public Service do what the member for Mt Lawley said needs Board's array of talents is just what the mem- to be done, but the Government is conscious of ber for Nedlands concluded by talking about. the need and has tried to pay that $ 100 000 on the advice of the Agent General to supplement In respect of development and training, I am that need and hopefully to make some, if not afraid I cannot provide all the information all, of the improvements referred to by the requested by the member. It has not been member for Mt Lawley as being necessary. provided to me; but the development and training provision reflects the discontinu- Division 8 put and passed. ance-there has been a decrease of $230 916- Division 9: Public Service Board, of the human resource management course at WAIT and a re-prioritisation of training pro- $8944000- grammes for 1986-87. The two major areas for Mr COURT: Last night I raised a very t986-87 are executive development, $ 174 700; serious matter when we were debating the and management-supervisory development, Exim legislation in connection with the con- $ 112 900. Apart from that, I do not have any cerns I have about some of the businesses with additional information about the AIM course which him and its senior management are or about any outside courses in which the Pub- involved. One of the people employed by Exim lic Service Board might be participating. There was then appointed by the Treasurer to the are a number of courses within departmental Public Serice Board where he now heads the votes that are patronised by public servants Functional Review Committee. and they range from vocational guidance 4882 4882[ASSEMBLY] courses through to trade training and other been redeployed or retrained, I will ask sorts of courses, including management devel- Treasury to extract that information and for- opment. ward it to the member. Division 9 put and passed. Division 10 pint and passed. Division 10: Office of Redeployment and Division 11: Treasury, $11 199 000- Retraining, $2 324 000- Mr COURT: I want to raise a point about Mr COURT: We have just debated the Pub- the way Treasury handles investment of its lic Service Board and the considerable amount short-term cash surpluses, a subject which is a of money, nearly $7 million, involved in its very expensive one for me. Last week in ques- operations. We now move to the Office of Re- tion time I asked the Premier on notice this deployment and Retraining. There would ap- question in four pants- pear to be an overlap between the function car- (1) Why is the Western Australian Devel- nied out by these two different departments. I opment Corporation now charging the would have thought the Public Service Board Treasury a fee for handling the would be responsible to ensure that the exten- Treasury's short-term cash surpluses, sive personnel employed by the Government when the Government had previously are properly managed, trained, and slotted into stated that no fee will be charged? their rigjht positions. (2) When did payment of the fee by Amongst the figures for the Office of Re- Treasury commence? deployment and Retraining are unattached officers, with an estimated cost of about $1.5 (3) What fee structure is being charged by million. Are these the salaries of people who dd, WADC? not fit into a certain Government department (4) Why has not the public been notified so they remain on the unattached list for a of the change in practice? period before they can be slotted in The reason I raised this question-and I elsewhere? have put it on notice again for tomorrow-is The Treasurer could give us an example of that when the WADC handled the investment what has happened to the BMA in its of these funds it made the point that the restructuring. A number of people were put Treasury would be receiving the top rate at the into the Office of Redeployment and time for those funds. The WADC would Work Retraining. Could he tell us how many of those harder and make more money, and that was the people have gone on to be relocated in other profit which the WADC would take. That was positions? the concept which the Treasurer put forward. Is it possible for the functions being carried There has now been a change, and the out by this Office of Redeployment and WADC charges Treasury for handling those Retraining, which is a very convenient means funds. The fee charged is equivalent to that of shuffling people around, to be carried out made by a cash management trust for the man- under the auspices of the Public Service Board? agement of funds. Mr BRIAN BURKE: The establishment of a distinct Office of Redeployment and Why has the WADC started charging a fee Retraining was considered desirable, divorced when it said earlier it could run the operation from the Public Service Board with which this more efficiently than Treasury and it would be office still works closely. It is responsible for able to earn more money, therefore there was redeployment and retraining. no need to charge a fee? In fact, in correspon- dence, the WADC makes the point it does not I cannot inform the member for Nedlands charge fees, but that appears to have changed in about specific numbers which have gone practice. through the office or been redeployed or retrained. After restructuring, for example, I believe the Treasury is quite capable of officers will be placed on the attached list and managing its own short-term cash surpluses. then transferred to other departments as There is no need for it to pass control of that vacancies arise. In most cases departments are cash across to another Government corpor- told they are not to fill vacancies until they ation for investment. have checked with the Office of Redeployment I appreciate the Treasurer might not be able and Retraining about the availability of suit- to give the answer today, but I put the question able candidates from that office. The system on notice last week and again today. tt would works well and the deployees are working well. appear the WADC has not been able to earn As to the exact numbers of people who have the sort Of profits it envisaged, because it has [Wednesday, 26 November 1986] 484883 not been trading the funds as a private sector Mr BRIAN BURKE: I do not understand operation would have to, so it has resorted to that to be the case. charging a fee. Mr Court: That is the case. Mr BRIAN BURKE: I take on board the by the member for Nedlands. From Mr BRIAN BURKE: I understand it is point made trading the time of its inception the WADC has been in securities and doing it successfully. working under constant re-examination. I do Mr Court: It is not. not know the details of the present situation Mr BRIAN BURKE: If it is not, it is not. The but I understand the return being received by member for Nedlands; seems to be better the Treasury is well in excess of cash manage- informed. H-e is very dogmatic. ment trust performances by any trust which can be pointed to by the member for Nedlands Mr MacKinnon: He is dogmatic because he or'anyone else. In fact, the cash management knows he is right. activities of the WADC have been proved to be Mr BRIAN BURKE: My understanding is one of its real success stories. that it is trading in securities. Mr Court: Hang on. If that is a success, why Mr Count: If it is and doing it successfully it does it now have to charge a fee? should be making huge profits, handling $4 Mr MacKinnon: If it is a success, why not million to $5 million in funds. give an indication of how successful it has Mr BRIAN BURKE: The profits are being been? made and handed back to Treasury in the form Mr BRIAN BURKE: I do not have the de- of a return that exceeds the best-managed cash tails of the arrangements in front of me. and management trust. they are not readily available on advice. I tried Mr Court: It gets the going rate but then it- to explain that my information is that the re- turn to the Government is well in excess of the Mr BRIAN BURKE: I am trying to explain highest cash management return available. that that is not true. What is happening is that Mr Court: We are not talking about a cash the Treasury is being guaranteed a maximum management trust. rate plus a certain percentage on top of that. Mr BRIAN BURKE: It is a good return. Mr Court: Is that a new arrangement? Mr Court: We are talking about Treasury. Mr BRIAN BURKE: I am not sure whether Treasury was doing it quite capably. it is new. The arrangement has been under con- stant consideration since the time it was first Mr BRIAN BURKE: That is the point I am negotiated. There have been changes both in making. That is true, but not to the extent of access to cash flows by the WADC and in the the return now being received. change away from having Treasury officers Mr Court: It Was receiving the top rate on the looking over the shoulders of WADC officers. market and then hanging on to the security They are now working very successfully in an Until Maturity. integrated fashion, as I am sure the member for Mr BRIAN BURKE: That is not right. Nedlands; knows if he has the information and the sort of contacts I think he has. Several members interjected. Mr BRIAN BURKE: Members opposite Mr Court: I don't have any contacts there. pride themselves on some special knowledge, Mr BRIAN BURKE: The operation of the but the fact is that Treasury did not have the WADC is regarded as one of the better money hardware or the software, or the staff or the market operations in the country, as is the op- facilities, to carry out the job being done for it. eration of the superannuation fund at this Mr Court: You do not-need those facilities if stage_. you are buying securities and holding onto Item 1: Salaries, Wages and Allowances- them until maturity. You do not need all that gear. You need all that other gear if you are Mr COURT: The Treasury has the expertise trying to trade them by moving up and down as to be able to perform the function being the market goes up and down. That was the performed by the WADC. Why have these point you made- You said the WADC would be Treasury officials been looking over the doing that. What the WADC has done is what shoulders of the officials of the WADC? the Treasury was doing-getting the top rate of Mr Brian Burke: I said that was one of the the day and then hanging on till maturity. things that changed after the initial period- 4884 4884[ASSEMBLY]

Mr COURT: The Treasurer said there had Division 31: Miscellaneous Services, been changes to the investment practices. If I $132 201 000- wrote to him, would he be good enough to tell me what the changes have been? Item 7: Australian Bicentennial Authority- Mr Brian Burke: Yes, I will do my best to Mr MacKINNON: This item shows an in- answer. crease from $143 000 to $230 000, What is the reason for that increase? Mr COURT: Thank you. Secondly, does the State have any plans as a Division I11 put and passed. State rather than merely as part of the nation to celebrate the Australian bicentennial? I would Division 12: Office of the Auditor General, have thought the Government would want to $3 727 000-put and passed. undertake some special project on its own to Division 13: Equal Opportunity Commission, celebrate this historic occasion. Have any $927000- specific capital works projects been allocated funds for construction that year to celebrate the Item 4: Services and Contracts- event? Mr MacKINNON: Expenditure for this item Mr LAURANCE: As a member of the State last year was $41 965 while the estimated ex- Council of the Australian Bicentennial Auth- penditure for this financial year is S3175 000, a ority I would like to say a few words on this fairly significant increase. Will the Treasurer item. please explain the increase? I compliment the present chairman, Mr John Mr BRIAN BURKE: The increase is mainly H-armnan, on his work, having taken over the attributable to the need for consultants to ad- position from an experienced leader in this vise in areas relating to reviews of field in Mr Slade Drake-Brockm an, who led the superannuation, legislation, and Government State's 150th celebrations in 1979 and then policies and practices as detailed in section 82 went on in 1980 to chair the State Council of of the Equal Opportunity Act, and to the full the Australian Bicentennial Authority. I was year on-going cost of the community education then the Minister representing the Government programme. on the committee and I have been fortunate enough to continue to serve on the committee Division 13 put and passed. since it was established. I was fortunate enough Division 14: Directorate of Equal Opportunity to attend Mr Drake-Brockman's retirement in Public Employment, $416 000- function some months ago when the Premier paid tribute to his work. I certainly appreciated Item 4: Services and Contracts- having the opportunity to work with this man who did an outstand ing job i n th is a rea. It was Mr MacKINNON: This item has increased a pity he was not able to carry on until 1988, from last year's expenditure of $45 007 to an but it was a big contract for a man who looked estimate of $71 000. 1 would like an expla- after the 1979 celebrations and then took on nation for the increase. the chairman's position in 1980 when the job Mr BRIAN BURKE: The increase in this would not finish until 1988. He did the State provision is attributed to the use of consultants proud in his efforts as chairman. and legal services required to facilitate specific Mrs Margaret Aitken was appointed his areas of training and legal advice required on deputy and she worked hard in that position. It specific issues during 1986-87 and the printing is a shame she was relieved of her position, of the annual report, equal opportunity because she is another person in this State who guidelines, and equal opportunity kits and has an outstanding record of community ser- literature to assist departments in the im- vice. She gave a tremendous amount to the plementation and writing of management State council. I understand she was removed plans. In fact we are looking at the full year from her post because of some difficulty with costs of the operation of the office. the national executive director of the authority, Division 14 put and passed. Dr Armstrong. He become famous for receiv- ing the $500 000 payout when he was removed Divisions 15 to 30 postponed, on motion by from his position, which was another contro- Mr Brian Burke (Treasurer). versy. [Wednesday, 26 November l986J]88 4885

In fact, it resulted in the sacking or resig- a few places around Western Australia. That is nation of the then national Chairman of the unfortunate, but the exhibition takes consider- Australian Bicentennial Authority, Mr John able time to erect and pull down. Reid, who was an outstanding national My final point is that I believe it is regret- businessman. That was most unfortunate. Dr table that some prominent people in the com- Armstrong took the package. lHe had pre- munity have spoken out against the bicenten- viously fallen out with Mrs Margaret Aitken nial celebrations by saying that Australia can- and was responsible for her removal from the not afford them. A person I admire greatly, Mr State committee of the national authority. That Bob Ansett, said publicly that the event should was most regrettable for Western Australia. be scrapped. There is very little about which I Her place was taken by Diana Warnock. disagree with him, but I disagree with him on The member for Pilbara is currently the this matter. I believe that this country cannot Government's representative on the com- afford to miss it. It is an opportunity for mittee. I believe she appreciates the oppor- friendly countries and our trading partners to tunity to attend those State council meetings as give us gifts. It gives the Australian people the much as I do. When the council was first set up opportunity to show their loyalty to their in 1980. meetings were held about every four country. months. Now they are held every two months Mr Cowan: It also gives Bob Hawke the op- and sometimes More often, and a number Of portunity to launch another election campaign. committees operate. Mr LAURANCE: I realise that. I wish to pay tribute to the chairman and Mr Brian Burke: Shades of 1979. members of the State council. They give a great deal of their time to ensure that Western Mr LAURANCE: I do not know what the Australia joins in this wonderful national cel- Treasurer is talking about. ebration. A series of national and State events, Mr COURT: The Deputy Leader of the Op- jointly funded by the Commonwealth and the position mentioned that Slade Drake- State, will be held. A series of local events will Brockman was involved in arranging the cel- also be held which will allow for participation ebrations in 1979. He ran a very tight ship. I by all Australians. I think the celebrations will was concerned to hear of the tremendous waste be a tremendous success. I pay tribute to all of expenditure that occurred in the Australian the people and organisations that are now be- Bicentennial Authority in the east. I hope that, coming increasingly involved in these cel- in participating in these celebrations, we im- ebrations. When the State council first met in pose very tight controls over expenditure. The 1980, 1988 seemed a long way away. We are estimate for the Australian Bicentennial Auth- now at the end of 1986. 1 believe that the ority for this year is $230 000. There is also an people of Western Australia will need to be estimate for the State contribution to the Bi- made increasingly aware of the event over the centennial commemorative programme of next 12 months so that they will see it as an $1 067 000. Will that money go to a central opportunity to take part in those celebrations. pool in the Eastern States? The bicentennial will be successful only if all Mr Parker: No, exactly the opposite. levels of the community take pant. Mr COURT: So it goes into a Western Some of the more exciting projects for the Australian pool. Will the Treasurer explain event include a number of tall ships coming to where the amount of $230 000 under item 7 Australia. One-a gift from Britain to will go? Australia-has offered places in its crew to young people from around Australia. About Mr RUSHTON: I question the role of the 18000 people applied for the few places but Australian Bicentennial Authority in the nam- only two from each State will be selected, The ing of all sorts of roads all over the State. We- short list of 24 in Western Australia has been are seeing a rash of signs erected on roads. announced. Eventually a young man and a Perhaps the Treasurer could use his good young woman will represent our State in that offices to see that the signs do not continue to proliferate. When I was Minister, I arranged crew. with Peter Nixon, who was then the Federal An enormous roadtrain carrying the Minister for Transport, to have only one sign Australian exhibition will travel by road which was shifted from place to place when a around Australia over the 12 months. That new road was constructed. The Government magnificent display will be able to stop at only should get some sense out of the Common- 4886 4886[ASSEMBLY)

wealth Government and stop this insult to the quite rightly has been generous with respect to people of Western Australia, which says that it the AMER. I would be interested in knowing is the Commonwealth's money that is doing the number of students involved with examin- everything. This is the State's money. ations offered by the AMER and whether the Mr BRIAN BURKE: There is provision to Government has been approached by people meet the State's proportion of the administrat- within the other teaching methods about assist- ive costs of the Western Australian council for ance to them. 1986-87 in accordance with the matching The Suzuki and Yamaha systems are taught agreement with the Commonwealth. to a greater number of people than those under- The next item to which the member for taking the AMEB examinations. I do not take Nedlands referred was item 106, the pro- issue with the traditional AMER system, but gramme itself. numerous systems involve thousands of people across Australia. I believe that they too have an Mr Court: I will speak about it later. entitlement to taxpayers' funds. Mr BRIAN BURKE: The Leader of the Op- Mr BRIAN BURKE: I cannot answer the position raised the point about whether there question about the numbers involved, but I will would be a State programme as well. There will find out. be a State programme. The joint programme Mr Blaikie: Perhaps you could suggest to the will include the restoration of Arthur's Head, AMER that it provide the Government with the "Tall Ships" project, the Forrest Place re- development, the Aboriginal monument, and numbers in future. one other. Mr BRIAN BURKIE: I will make sure that the matter is referred to Treasury and that the Mr Laurance: Ningaloo Marine Park. member for Vasse gets an answer with respect Mr BRIAN BURKE: Yes, the other is the to the number of students undertaking AMER Ningaloo Marine Park. There are many State examinations. I will also check to see whether programmes. For instance, there will be an we have received approaches from Yamaha or "Axernan" at Manjiniup and many nature Suzuki. Irrespective of whether we have trails. Those will be State programmes, so it received those approaches, I will have Treasury will be a mixture of both of them. I do not have consider the possibility of providing assistance all the details, but the Minister for The Arts in in those cases. his responsibility can answer intricate and Item 13: Children's Holiday Association of complex questions. Perth and State of W.A.- Item 10: Australian Music Examinations Mr BLAIKIE: I would like the Treasurer to Board- explain what is the Children's Holiday Associ- Mr BLAIKIE: The estimate sought for the ation and how the $ 7 100 will be spent. Australian Music Examinations Board is Mr BRIAN BURKE: The Children's Holiday $47 000. This item has been allowed in a series Association arranges for the care of children of of Budget Estimates for Some six or seven single working parents by host families during years. A number of years ago the Australian school holidays and promotes farm holidays for Music Examinations Board began to pull out of boys in the 10 to 14 years age group. Western Australia because of the inability of Boys in this age range are difficult to place in people to pay the necessary examination fees. metropolitan homes as many people suspect The Government of the day came forward with their behavioural attitudes. some $20 000 and the AMEB examinations have continued ever since. Annual State assistance to the association was raised from the level of $1 000 established I note that this year some $47 000 is sought. in 1973-74 to $1 500 in 1976-77 and further Expenditure last year amounted to $51 000. increased to $2 000 in 1984-85 to meet the Does the Treasury have any idea of the number increased costs of developing a programme of students who are availing themselves of this which involved placing children in the country. very important and generous assistance from the State and the taxpayers? There are a num- Item 14: Churches Commission on Edu- ber of other music systems employed in the cation- State. One such is Suzuki. Another is Yamaha. Mr CASH: This is the first time that this Although those music systems involve a large item has appeared and a vote of $20 000 has number of people, they do not get assistance by been set aside for it. Could the Treasurer ex- way of taxpayers' funding. The Government plain what this amount is all about and what [Wednesday, 26 November 1986]188 4887 are the objectives of the Churches Commission vide good training. I wonder what is the back- on Education? I ask the same question with ground to this advisory service and how it respect to item 15 and the reduction in funds complements and adds to the already credi- allocated to the Citizens Advice Bureau. The table performance within the technical division reduction has caused some inconvenience to of education-this restaurant training ground. the community. Mr COURT: As I understand it, during the Mr BRIAN BURKE: The $20000 is year the Government said it would help to con- provided to the Churches Commission on Edu- tribute towards an industry association. The cation to assist in establishing chaplaincies in industry was very concerned about the effect of schools in underprivileged areas. The annual the new entertainment tax. I am interested to contribution of $20 000 for three years com- know how that committee is going and whether mences in 1986-87 for that purpose. the Government will finance that industry on The next item sees a decrease of $13 000, an ongoing basis. What is the $40 000 to be resulting from surplus funds available follow-_ used for in that industry association? ing the closure of one branch during 1985-86. Mr BRIAN BURKE: There is no commit- That reduced the State requirements for the ment to fund it inevitably, but that will be a remaining nine country centres. That is the matter for constant review and consideration. reason for the reduction. The contribution of $40 000 is towards the run- Item 28: Good Samaritan Industries- ning costs of the committee which was set up to coordinate Projects organised by the res- Mr RUSHTON: I want to pay tribute to the taurants and caterers organisation and the re- Good Samaritan Industries which I recently view of costs in 1986-87 and 1987-88. Those visited with the Treasurer when he presented running costs were agreed to, but nothing be- prizes for some great work of those yond that. participating. We are allocating $25 000 to this organisation, which is deserving of our support. The committee has been very successful in I know this is by way of an encouragement, but bringing together diverse and contradictory I wonder if this sum could not be indexed in opinions about a number of things to assist in some way so that it increases as time goes by. changes in trading hours and other licensing laws which affect the restaurant and catering I think the Treasurer will agree that the stan- industries in particular. The Government's in- dard of performance is magnificent, and the itiative has been very well received. work done is very creditable. The organi.sation ensures that a tremendous number of people Mr BLAIKIE: The Treasurer has just given are engaged in practical employment-people an explanation which, in my view, is fairly who normally would not have any employ- shallow when one considers that a sum of ment. It does the heart good to witness what is $40 000 is involved. This is a new organisation. being done. As the Treasurer says, it is for the committee to bring together people within the industry. I suggest that whoever is responsible should arrange for a parliamentary visit to this human A series of other industry groups have been place of employment. It reflects great credit on established for quite a long while. The Catering those involved. The leadership, the perform- Institute of Australia has members in the hos- ance, and the spirit generated amongst the pitality and catering pants of the industry, as people employed is tremendous. Let us organ- well as members involved in liquor sales. It has ise a visit next year, and if this sum cannot be people involved in the food servicing part of indexed, let us give them more encouragement the industry. That is one organisation which from year to year. comes to mind readily. Mr BRIAN BURKE: I take on board the I would be interested for the Treasurer to comments of the member for Dale and I will- indicate, by- a simple answer across the see what can be done. Chamber, who are the principal people involved in this committee? Is Frank Sabbadini Item 49: Restaurant and Caterers Advisory one? Cornmittee- Mr Brian Burke: He is one. Mr RUSHTON: The sum involved is $40 000. I wonder if this item is to do with the Mr BLAIKIE: Who else? America's Cup or related to it? In this area are Mr Brian Burke: I cannot name them all. In some tremendous services within the technical fact I cannot name others, except to say that division of our educational system, which pro- Janet Ashley is involved. She was an hotel and 4888 4888[ASSEMBLY] restaurant owner. There are also representa- Ealier I raised a question with the Treasurer tives from all of the major sections of the in- in relation to the Australian Music Examin- dustry, including AHA. Doug Shave was on the ations Board. I did not question the expendi- AHA. There are representatives from all the ture of $51 000, but said that if that amount of major sections of the hospitality industry, in- money is being spent I would like to know the cluding hotels, involved in this group. number of people receiving the benefit. In the item under discussion, $40 000 is being spent Mr BLAIKIE: This is a new organisation. and I would again like to know the number of This would be the same organisation which ad- people who have benefited-the number of vertises under the auspices of the State Govern- people who have come to Western Australia ment overseas for chefs and people to work in and are currently employed as a result of the the hospitality industry? benefit provided by the taxpayers of Western Mr Brian Burke: That is right. Australia. Surely that is what this Budget de- bate is all about: Accountability of expenditure Mr BLAIKIE: I would also like to question and an assurance that taxpayers' funds are be- how successful that was. Of course, these things ing spent wisely. seem a very good idea at the time. One also There has been an extension of licensing needs to have a very positive regard for the hours, and the Treasurer has said this com- funding which the State's taxpayers put into mittee was very responsible in formulating these various schemes. some policies. I do not question that. With an organisational set-up like this, one Mr Brian Burke: That was not the only thing of its functions was to bring people from over- for which this committee was responsible. seas into Western Australia, particularly for the Mr BLAIKIE: I accept that it would have America's Cup period. I would be interested to advised the Government on other matters. I know how successful that was. I have had the assume it advised the Government on working opportunity of talking to people in the hospi- conditions and rates of pay as well, but we have tality industry and people involved in diplo- not yet seen the result of that. matic Circles in other countries while I was overseas earlier this year. They raised the ques- Mr Brian Burke: The committee was also in- tion of how successful the organisation has strumental in arranging for a number of been. journalists to come here, and for their food and accommodation. They wrote stories in other Mr Brian Burke: 1 do not know the results of parts of the world that apparently were very that advertising. successful. Mr BLAIKIE: I can accept the Treasurer's Mr BLAIKIE: I would like to know who comments, but if the efforts were not success- came here so that there is a degree of account- ful, or they were unable to attract one or two ability. An amount of $40 000 has been al- people from overseas at a cost of $40 000, it is lowed for this item. The people of western a bloody high expense rate. This is the sort of Australia are being hurl in the hip pocket. measure people start to complain about. Although that sum is only an infinitesimal amount in a Budget approaching $3 billion, I do not want to question the credibility of there is a need for accountability. The Frank Sabbadini, or Doug Shave, or whoever it Treasurer has gone part of the way towards might be, but I did take the trouble to tele- explaining it, but I would like the Government phone to take a further step and give a check list of the this organisation some months ago in- quiring how it was getting on in relation to achievements made and, in addition, a list of employment levels. The result of my conver- the numbers of people directly employed as a sation was not overly satisfactory. Certainly I result of the generosity of the State and its tax- am not aware of how many people have been payers. attracted from overseas. If the organisation Mr COURT: The member for Vasse has attracted people, that is well and good for raised some very good points. In one of his Western Australia, provided that people in our responses the Treasurer said that the Res- own hospitality industry have not been put out taurant and Caterers Advisory Committee of employment. On the other hand, surely there comprised a very diverse group of people. That must be some measure of the successes is quite true and, as the Treasurer knows only achieved. There must be a degree of account- too well because it was becoming quite a major ability. political issue, there are differences between [Wednesday, 26 November 1986])88 4889

the various sections of the restaurant and cater- I want to put in a plug for our local res- ing industry, particularly when we consider the taurant industry, hoteliers, and the like. I do differences between hoteliers, licensed res- not travel a great deal, but I believe they would taurants, night clubs, and other groups. have some of the finest standards and quality, including value for money, of anywhere I have In a very tight industry it is difficult to get been in the world. The America's Cup has the members of that industr together as a given us an even greater range. I believe the group to try to promote themselves. I support standard of service is very high, and it is a the concept of those people coming together to credit to those people operating in the industry achieve some positive things for their industry. that they have been able to rise to meet the However, members should not forget the main demands of the occasion. reason that these people were brought together, and why they decided to become more united I agree with the member for Vasse about this in the first place. It was because the Federal type of expenditure. Initially the Treasurer had Government introduced an entertainment tax to get himself off the hook a little, and it will be which, overnight, severely hurt restaurants, es- interesting to hear what he has to say about it. pecially those relying on the lunchtime trade. A place in the community. The revolt was taking Mr BRIAN BURKE: I did not have to get Treasurer read the concern in the industry. myself off the hook. The advisory committee There are very influential people in that indus- was formed as a result of the numerous and try who tend to influence many people as they often contradictory approaches received from go about their day-to-day business. Even a different pants of the industry about essentially small restaurant might see 40 to 50 people go the same items. As one example, the licensing through in a day, and politically that is the type laws affected different parts of the hospitality of group a politician does not want to have off- industry differently and were perceived side. differenty, as were the changes considered de- I attended a number of the group's meetings. sirable. So the advisory committee was estab- One of those meetings was held at a Fremantle lished and the Government undertook to assist restaurant one afternoon and was attended by with the funding for a limited period, and that about 150 restaurant owners. They were com- is what this funding is for-the administration petitors but all were there together, united in du ring t hat i mited period. their concern about the effects the Federal Government's taxation policies were having on The committee has been very successful, as -their industry. far as I know. I do not know how many people have been encouraged to come here as a result *Mr Blaikie: Would it be fair to say they were of the advertising to which the member for all opposed to the fringe benefits tax? Vasse refers, but the committee is a source of Mr COURT: They were, but interestingly excellent advice for the Government on a range they' all contributed a great deal of money to of issues to do with the hospitality industry. launch a Federal campaign against the tax pro- The member for Vasse makes it sound as posals of the Hawke Labor Government. It was though all the advisory committee does is to try an example of an industry which started to pull to persuade people to come here from other together because of the effects of the tax poli- countries; but that is not true. It does all sorts cies introduced by the Labor Government. In of work in advising and liaising between an astute political move the Treasurer decided Government and its members, and assisting in he had better toss in a few funds to get these other areas such as the one I referred to, where people together to put forward a case to see journalists were encouraged to come here. I re- whether they could improve their loL- peat that the committee has been very success- ffil, -with very prominent hospitality industry The points raised by the member for Vasse people volunteering their work and the are very relevant. We do want to know what is Government providing administration staff for happening, but we also make the point that the a limited period. restaurant industry was under attack from the Labor Government's taxation policies. This is Mr Blaikie: Of that $40 000, has any money being disguised in this State to some extent been made available to that committee to visit because of the influx of business occurring for European countries in a search for improve- those restaurants due to the America's Cup ac- ments to the hospitality industry? If you do not tivities. know, would you please find out? 4890 4890[ASSEMBLY]

Mr BRIAN BURKE: I cannot answer the Division 31: Miscellaneous Services, question. My understanding is that that has not $132 201 000- happened, but that Qantas provided some free travel and so on. However, I do not know the Progress was reported after Division 31 had detailed answer to that question. been partly considered. Progress reported and leave given to sit again Item 58: Salvation Army-Red Shield Api- at a later stage of the sitting, on motion by Mr peal- Brian Burke (Treasurer). Mr CASH: This item deals with Govern- Sitting suspendedfrom 6. 0010o 7.15 p. m. ment's contribution to a community group, the [Questions taken.] Salvation Army. Last year $27 000 was set aside, and this year it is intended to pay BILLS (3): MESSAGES $13 500 to that group. Appropriations The Government no longer intends to con- Messages from the Governor received and tribute to the Sunday Times Father Brian read recommending appropriations for the pur- Christmas appeal. In view of the reduction in poses of the following Bills- the donation to the Salvation Army, where I . Wesply (Dardanup) Agreement does the Government stand in respect of these Authorization Amendment Bill. community appeals? Has there been some change in the Government's policy? What 2. Video Tapes Classification and Control reasons has the Government firstly to cut back Bill. on the Salvation Army, and secondly to make 3. Alumina Refinery Agreement Amend- no contribution whatever to Father Brian's ment Bill. Christmas appeal this year? BILLS (7): ASSENT Mr BRIAN BURKE: The reason for the de- Message from the Governor received and crease in the donation to the Salvation Army is read notifying assent to the following Bills- simply that last year, when the $1Imillion target was being ap- I . Control of Vehicles (Off-road areas) for the Red Shield Appeal proached, I promised to double the Govern- Amendment Bill. ment's contribution if the $1 million was 2. Superannuation and Family Benefits broken. I did not do that indefinitely, I did it Amendment Bill. only for last year as an incentive. That is why 3. Acts Amendment (Parliamentary $13 500 has been taken from the allocation to Superannuation) Bill. the Salvation Army. The item is a donation to 4. Agricultural and Related Resources the 1987 Red Shield Appeal. Protection Amendment Bill. The $13 500 has also to be seen in the con- 5. Co-operative and Provident Societies text of the fact that in 1981 the Government Amendment Bill. agreed to increase its annual contribution to 6. Friendly Societies Amendment Bill. the Red Shield Appeal to meet interest instal- 7. Foreign Judgments (Reciprocal En- ments on a loan of $50 000 obtained by the forcement) Amendment Bill. Salvation Army to assist with the development of its Baldivis youth camp. These additional COAL MINERS' WELFARE AMENDMENT contributions for interest instalments were BILL $5 250 in 1980-81 and $3 500 in 1981-82. The Returned final repayment of principal of $25 000 was met by the army on 31 December 1982. Be- Bill returned from the Council without cause of the value of the army's work within amendment. the community it has been decided to continue to contribute $13 500 to the appeal, and pro- APPROPRIATION (CONSOLIDATED vision is made accordingly. REVENUE FUND) BILL In Committee I am afraid we do not have any information on the Father Brian Christmas Appeal. Resumed from an earlier stage of the sitting. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Mrs Mr Cash: The fact is, you are not supporting Henderson) in the Chair; Mr Brian Burke Father Brian this year, nor the Daily News (Treasurer) in charge of the Bill. Christmas Cheer Fund. [Wednesday, 26 November I1986J]89 4891

Mr BRIAN BURKE: I am not sure about Mr BRIAN BURKE: One of the problems is those, but I will ask Treasury to advise the that communities inevitably want the associ- member. I presume we are not giving the ation established in their areas, and the money somewhere else, but we may be. I will Government is under continual pressure from check. If we are not, it is because we cannot communities in remote areas of the State, and afford to support a multiplicity of these things. in country areas generally, for the St John Am- bulance Association, and for the full-time ser- Item 61: St. John Ambulance Brigade- vices of ambulance officers. Mr BLAIKIE: I have looked briefly through I do not disagree with many of the things the the Budget papers for the amount of money members for Vasse and Dale said, and I will given to the St John Ambulance Association. certainly examine the matter. The association Item 61 relates to the St John Ambulance Brig- and the brigade do work closely together, but ade. As was the case last year, the amount the association's allocation is under the Minis- sought is $32 000. 1 have commented in pre- ter for Health's Division and represents an in- vious years on the work of the St John Ambu- crease well in excess of inflation this year. lance Brigade, the voluntary ambulance service I do not know whether we can ever change of Western Australia which provides an out- the views of people who demand serices, but standing service. An assessment of the number certainly they constantly request that the as- of people involved in the brigade and the num- sociation be present in their areas, and the con- ber of centres it covers will indicate to the Version of voluntary services to permanent, Government that the cost of the service to the professional services. State is extremely low-$32 000 in this Budget. Mr Blaikie: What was the reason for putting There has been a growing encroachment on the association under the Minister for Health's the brigade by the paid service which is Division this year when it has traditionally provided by the St John Ambulance Associ- been the Treasurer's responsibility? ation. My concern is that if that were to apply Mr Court: Perhaps I can answer that. I think across the whole of the State, literally dozens of there was a problem as to whose responsibility centres would not be able to afford an ambu- it was. The responsibility used to be the lance service. I commend the Government for Treasurer's, but in fact it was a health matter. I the allocation of $32 000 to the brigade, be- can remember the problem of the ambulance cause I believe it is one of the better items Of officers who did not pick up the Aboriginal annual expenditure made in successive people. In the end the Minister for Aboriginal Budgets. I ask the Treasurer to ensure that this Affairs was prepared to do the work on that acknowledgment is continued, because it is one matter, but now it has been put under the of the greatest value-for-money services the Health Division so that everyone knows who is State receives. responsible for it. Mr RUSHTON: I support the remarks of the Mr BRIAN BURKE: The main reason for member for Vasse on item 61. It has always the change was that the functional home of the been my concern that the St John Ambulance service was in the health area. That is where it Brigade has thousands of volunteers Working fitted most sensibly. on behalf of the citizens of this community Item 62: Systems Research Institute, of West- while the St John Ambulance Association has ern Australia- run at a great cost. Its charges to the State for the ambulance service are horrific. Mr COURT: A sum of $625 000 has been allocated to this item, and I would appreciate I wonder whether there could be a little extra an explanation of what is taking place. The recognition of the brigade, and for it to handle Systems Research Institute was set up by the more of the service while the association is held previous Government, and in re~cent timnes has back. From what I have observed, the associ- had a rather turbulent period of survival. The ation is a fairly militant group, whereas brigade current Government has gone its own way in members are volunteers. Out my way, when the setting up its technologies and handling the brigade ran the service it did so at almost no technological question. It appears that the cost. It is one of those things in life now where Government has not wanted to know too much the burden to the taxpayer is becoming greater. about how systems research can be made vi- I ask the Treasurer to redress the situation by able, or how it should operate. I understand the allowing the brigade a little more money and Government was considering the possibility of having it carry out more services. selling off to the private sector various sections, 4892 4892[ASSEMBLY] products, and services of the institute, or in one The centres. aim to provide disadvantaged way or another trying to resolve something people with access to adequate legal services. I with that organisation. cannot name the centres, but I can say that Could the Treasurer explain the figure of provision of assistance commenced at the level 1625 000 because it seems a rather large of $20000 in 1984-85 as a contribution amount of money to be putting into the towards the cost of operating six centres in Systems Research Institute of Western Western Australia. With seven centres Australia? operating in Western Australia in 1985-86, the grant was increased to the level of $25 000. Mr BRIAN BURKE: I cannot comment on Distribution of grant funds is controlled by the the qualitative aspects of the member's contri- Legal Aid Commission of W.A. bution. His questions would be better addressed to the Deputy Premier who has the Although eight centres and the W.A. Com- carriage of this matter. I am responsible for the munity Law Centres Group will operate during miscellaneous services section of the Budget. 1987, the commission intends to fund the same This loan of $625 000 is being written off five recipients, but I cannot say who they are. against the CRE miscellaneous services section. Item 73: Community Sporting Facilities- A loan of $625 000 was provided by the State Contribution to Trust Fund- to the company to assist the computing indus- Mr RUSH-TON: I suppose last year's Budget try in Western Australia in the development of figure of $2 950 000 related to natural buildup computing software. It was proposed that the in an election year when many commitments company would be self-sufficient by enlisting are made and honoured. That may have been membership from the private sector and by the the reason for this expenditure last year. sale of its products. In view of the company's poor performance Is that the reason for the cut back by a third and as its liabilities exceeded its assets by this year to $2 million or is there another $1 557 267, the Government agreed to write reason for it? It is a good programme and has off the outstanding loan against the certainly been of benefit in many areas. It is a Consolidated Revenue Fund. Programme that assists local areas in getting some money together along with the Govern- Mr Court: What happened to it? ment's money and some great facilities have Mr BRIAN BURKE: I do not know. The been created. Deputy Premier is responsible for the SRI. Could the Treasurer confirm. the reasons for Item 66: W.A. Community Law Centres that cutback? Could he also give me an indi- Group- cation of which items might be included in this Mr MENSAROS: Could the Treasurer give programme? us the names of those groups? Even though it is Mr BRIAN BURKE: The only reason I can a small amount, it is an important item. When proffer is that it has not been an easy year and one looks at access to justice today it is not we have had to reduce expenditure, but we hard to see we are in a fairly difficult situation. have made good inroads towards the provision The other day I was at a Law Society func- of facilities as the member would be aware. tion and I was talking to a couple of judges. I remarked to them that litigation cases are being The pressure, while it is still very significant, conducted by large companies who can afford is not as great as it was previously. Neverthe- the legal fees or by people at the other end of less, we would like to be able to provide a the scale who use the legal aid system. Very few greater amount of funds than we are providing, litigants come in between them. They express but unfortunately we do not have the resources that it is not easy to see justice done via the for that extra amount. courts because the cost is exceptionally high. Mr Rushton: How does it relate to the de- This organisation, although subject to much mand? Is that matching the demand? criticism, is semi-voluntary and semi-private. Mr BRIAN BURKE: No, this will not meet Therefore, I think it ought to be supported as a the demand at all. It is hard to work out the means of helping people to have access to liti- demand. Hopefully, we will reduce it by this gat ion. amount next year and another amount the year Mr BRIAN BURKE: Provision has been after. I do not think we will ever eliminate it made for an increased contribution by the State although we have made very significant in- to the group of $2 500. roads. (Wednesday, 26 November 1986]189 4893

Mr Rushton: Have you any idea of big items Mr BRIAN BURKE: I understand it is all coming up this year? loan servicing costs on private borrowings. Mr BRIAN BURKE: I am sorry, I do not Item 85: Western Australian Film Council- have that information. The Minister for Sport and Recreation will be able to help. There are Mr MacKINNON: The Western Australian contributions from local authorities into the Film Council is an area of interst to me as a local funds. former Minister responsible fo r its Item 76: Fremantle Port Authority- administration. Approximately two years ago the Government indicated that it was going to Mr COURT: I refer to the Fremantle Port look at establishing a statutory corporation to Authority where no allocations have been replace the film council and had grandiose made in previous years, but this year there is an ideas about what was going to happen in that allocation of $111 000. Is this a special allo- regard. To my knowledge, nothing has since cation that has been set aside for America's been heard about that. I wonder whether the Cup commitments? Could the Treasurer give Government still has plans for the future devel- me an explanation as to what it and the allo- opment of the industry by the formation of a cation of $5 000 to the Geraldton Port Auth- statutory corporation. If that is the case, how ority are for? far down the track is the Government in that Mr BRIAN BURKE: This is a new item to process? meet the debt servicing costs for a period of three years, on a borrowing programme of Mr BRIAN BURKE: I cannot provide the $1050 000 required for the acquisition of information requested by the Leader of the Op- properties in the Kwinana Beach industrial position, but I have no doubt that the Minister area. The port authority wanted to purchase for The Arts, to whose portfolio this matter has the properties- been tranferred from that of Industry and could. Usually this item was Mr Rushton: Is a percentage still being taken Technology, funded from the Department of Industrial De- from the Fremantle Port Authority? This is a velopment's budget but because of the transfer counter figure. it now rests here on the basis that not all Mr BRIAN BURKE: It is an offset against funding comes from the CRF. I do not know the revenue from the port authority, but I do what the Minister plans to do by way of not have details for this item. restructuring or changing the film council, and I refer to the Geraldton Port Authority where I suggest that the Leader of the Opposition ask provision has been made in accordance with the Minister during his part of the Budget. the Government's commitment to provide a grant of $5 000 a year for a period of seven Item 87: Western Australian Mining and Pet- years, which commenced on I. July 1986, to roleum Research Institute- assist the Geraldton Port Authority to provide Mr MENSAROS: This is an increased vote private mooring facilities. for the Western Australian Mining and Pet- Item 84: Western Australian Building Auth- roleum Research Institute, or WAMPRI as it ority-Loan Servicing Costs- used to he called when it was first established. Mr COURT: Could the Treasurer give an I suspect, and I want the Treasurer to re- explanation as to why this figure has risen to affirm, that the 50 per cent increase is on ac- $34 million from $16 million? count of the rather unfortunate scrubbing of Mr Brian Burke: It is a full year cost. The SERIWA, the Solar Energy Research Institute increased allocation makes allowance for the of WA, because other-wise I do not think the full year impact of private borrowings in 1985- allocation would have risen. I understand that 86. SERIWA is in the process of being scrapped Mr COURT: Did this item come in last year? and therefore quite substantial moneys, which were contained in its budget, will be saved by Mr BRIAN BURKE: Yes, that is right. We the Government. It was also announced that used all our General Loan Fund money for SERIWA will be amalgamated with WAMPRI. housing and so this came in as a new item last If that is so, I take it that the additional year for half the year, but in this Budget it is a $150000, representing half the present allo- full year. cation to WAMPRI, is covering, to a very small Mr MacKinnon: Are any capital payments extent compared with the old budget of involved? SERI WA, the costs of SERI WA. 4894 4894[ASSEM BLYJ

I understand that the Government wants to than, they were at the time of the last election save money but I am sorry, both for personal yet as a height of political cynicism, that and general reasons, that this institute is being scheme no longer applies. discontinued. ht had a very wide and good I can assure the people of Western Australia reputation in South-East Asia. I know that it that if the Liberal Party becomes the Govern- had been given various tasks by overseas ment, when it makes commitments, it will companies and even Governments and that it mean them; it will not be making empty, shal- had worked in conjunction with many of the low commitments to people just for short-term Japanese Projects. Despite the fact that it is electoral advantage. That short-term electoral now not so popular to talk about the institute, advantage that the Treasurer may have gained it did something for the future and that was has cost him dearly and will be evident in the really to try to develop, even if slowly, alterna- support that he will not receive in the next tive energy sources to the presently available ejection from those people who have been so sources, other than nuclear energy. Why, by badly affected in the northern and other mort- way of savings, this institute has a low priority gage belt suburbs. The Liberal party intends to to this Government, I do not know, particu- ensure that it will remind these people of the larly because at the time this institute was Treasurer's sellout of them prior to the last created I was in charge of the energy portfolio, election. and the then Opposition was very much opposed, under all circumstances, to nuclear Item 103: Acquisition of Land and Property- energy, regardless of whether there were suf- Mr MacKINNON: I would appreciate it if ficient coal reserves. the Treasurer could explain to me exactly what From that point of view it is a pity that that $200 000 applies to. It is a significant SERIWA is now being amalgamated with the drop from the expenditure last year of $3.2 later created WAMPRI, where the interests million, and 1 would like to know, firstly, what quite obviously are divergent, the interests was the expenditure of that $3.2 million for, and secondly, why has an allocation of only quite obviously are divergent from those of $200 000 this year been made, and what is it to SERI WA. be spent on? Mr BRIAN BURKE: The Minister for Min- Mr BRIAN BURKE: Details of actual expen- erals and Energy could probably answer this diture in 1985-86 and the Estimate for 1 986-87 better than 1, but I understand that the decision are as follows: Cultural centre, actual $95 000, did have regard to the matter which the mem- estimate $200 000; Department of Mines, ber has outlined. There were also some other Carlisle properties, $45 000; Swan Brewery considerations in respect of existing commit- site, $2.5 million; cemetery site, Baldivis- ments such as sponsorship, funds, and funds on none of these have any estimate for next year- hand. There may have been adjustments up $270 000, Mt Bakewell, purchase of Dorsogna and down and back and forth, but I understand property at York, land at the Leschenault Pen- essentially that the member is right. To confirm insula, W. 1. and S. F. Greenham, $152 300; that that is the case, I suggest that the member Dawesville Channel, Diamond Coin Machines raise this matter with the Minister for Minerals Pty Ltd, $33 500; miscellaneous expenses of and Energy because I am not positive about it. rates and taxes etc., $3 11 000. Item 93: Interest Subsidy Scheme-Reim- Mr MacKinnon: Could you go back to that bursement of Interest and Associated Expenses $2.5 million. I thought it cost $5 million. to Homeswest- Where does the balance of that funding come from ? I want to make Mr MacKINNON: The point Mr BRIAN BURKE: I understand that it was about the interest subsidy scheme is merely a political one, but it is an important one in my not paid all at the same time. It was paid in view. Prior to the last election the Government instalments. That was $3 206 111 in 1985-86 made great play of its interest subsidy scheme and $200 000 the next year. and in fact wrote to every Western Australian Mr RUSHTON: The question of acquisition home owner who was granted such assistance. of land and properties is a very significant one The Treasurer, when asked how long this and I suppose it should be handled in general scheme would last, answered, "For as long as is debate, but so much has happened that to me it necessary." Members would be aware that is a bit like selling off the farm which is going interest rates are at the same level, if not higher on at the present time. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986] 494895

I wonder whether the Treasurer could give $554 000 was expended. Why was there an an indication that he will give us a full ap- underspending of $1.2 million of last year's praisal of the Government's purchases and vote? I had a question on the Notice Paper for sales because this would throw a full light on a month, which was purportedly directed to the the Budget. Where would be the opportunity of wrong Minister. It has been directed to the getting a response-would it be from the Min- Minister with special responsibility for the ister for Lands? America's Cup, and I am still waiting for a Mr Brian Burke: I will raise it with the Min- reply on the amount of expenditure by the ister for Lands and I expect he will be able to State and also in conjunction with the Com- provide an answer. monwealth for the America's Cup. My question related to last financial year and this financial Mr RUSHTON: This is the deal with sales of year. Surely members should be kept appropri- land relating to casinos and so on. ately informed, particularly during this debate Mr Brian Burke: The list could be quite so that they have an understanding of the ex- exhaustive because we could talk about small penditure and why the Government is seeking easements and so on. certain funds. Mr RUSHTON: I am not worried about that; Substantial sums of money have been spent it is only the big items. on the America's Cup challenge and I believe Mr Brian Burke: That is why I say he will do we should be kept informed of the expenditure. his best to answer it. Be fair about it. How was last year's vote underspent by $1.2 million? What is the Government proposing Mr RUSHTON: He is the Minister respon- for the $230 000 allocated under this year's Es- sible? timates? Mr Brian Burke: Yes. Mr COURT: Is the Premier able to put Item 104: Act of Grace Payments- together a list of the different expenditures set Mr COURT: Will the Treasurer give me an aside for America's Cup purposes so that we explanation of the act of grace payments under can understand them? item 104 which involves a considerably Mr Brian Burke: That is very hard. amount on last year's vote? What are increased Mr COURT: I agree with the member for act of grace payments? Vasse that we are entitled to know where the Mr BRIAN BURKE: There are a number of money is being spent. them, for example, one to the widow of F.J.S. Wise of $1 500. I mentioned to the Leader of Mr Brian Burke: If you define it for us we the Opposition earlier tonight, when I referred can try to do it. It might mean extra staff in one to the Salaries and Allowances Tribunal, the case and that might not be clearly attributable question of entitlements of former Premiers be- to the America's Cup. If it involves direct ex- cause of the problems we have had as far back penditure we will have a go at it. as the death of Sir David Brand and the deaths Mr COURT: These are normal accounting of Bert Hawke and Frank Wise. All sorts of problems and it is the only way we would really entitlements were being paid to various former know whether the Government is keeping con- Premiers. The Salaries and Allowances Tri- trol on expenditure. Who would know if differ- bunal has come down with a recommendation ent departments are using the America's Cup to and this highlights the need for it. There was an justify certain expenditures under our current ex gratia payment on I July 1975 approved by system of reporting these things to Parliament? the Government as an annual act of grace pay- With present-day technology I understand it ment of $I 500 to the widow of Hon. F. J. S. would be a relatively easy thing to do. Someone Wise to supplement existing pension payments has to make an allocation, whether there is a under the parliamentary superannuation fine-line in a certain area or not. In that way, scheme. we would know what different activities relat- Mr Court: Can I have a copy of the list after- ing to the America's Cup cost and it would be wards? easy for us to understand. We need to be detec- tives to go through the Budget documents to Mr BRIAN BURKE: Yes. find our what is being spent. Item 105: America's Cup- Mr CASH: I want to raise matters relating to Mr BLAIKIE: An amount of $230 000 is be- the America's Cup Festival of Sport which had ing sought in these Estimates for this item. Last its origins in this House on 23 August 1984 year the vote totalled $1.7 million and when the then member for Mt Lawley, Hon. 4896 4896[ASSEMBLY)

Ray O'Connor, made his final speech to the Still to come in the events that have been put House. He spoke about the forthcoming forward by the former Premier are an inter- America's Cup challenge series and suggested national rodeo which will be held this weekend that, rather than just a yachting series off the at Pinjarra, an international baseball tourna- coast, this was an opportunity for the State to ment, and later a one-day cricket match with hold a sports spectacular and to have a pro- greyhound racing and field hockey to follow. A gramme of events for visitors to Perth to view. number of horseracing events have been organised for the Christmas carnival and there In the ensuing period, Mr O'Connor has hel is some talk of a triathlon in early January negotiations with a number of world sporting 198 7. identities and signed a number of them to ap- pear in Perth in various events leading up to A number of other events have been the finale of the America's Cup series. I under- organised and with the continued support of stand that when he first put forward his pro- the Government they will be a success. This is posal, there was general agreement that it was a all part of the America's Cup series which we good idea. The West Australian of Friday, 10 are enjoying at the moment in Western January 1986 included a report of a function Australia. I rose tonight to encourage the attended by the former Premier, Ray O'Connor Government to continue to support the and the present Premier, Mr Brian Burke, at America's Cup Festival of Sport. It is a fantas- which the Premier said that the Festival of tic thing for Western Australia. It has certainly Sport was a concept of the former Premier, Ray given visitors to Western Australia another op- O'Connor, and one that has received the full portunity to see other international events support of the Premier and the State Govern- while they are visiting our State to enjoy the ment. I think that was confirmed at a function America's Cup series, and it will continue to be at the Merlin Hotel earlier this year. a success so long as it enjoys the support of the community The WA Festival of Sport has been an excit- and the Government. I urge the Government to continue its support of this ing sports spectacular for Western Australia. programme. Ray O'Connor served many years in this House. He put these events together to try to Mr LAURANCE: I endorse the remarks of make a success of the current yachting series. the member for Mt Lawley and pay a tribute to Some of the events that he put together in- the America's Cup Festival of Sport and its cluded the Rothwells Australian Three-Day principal organiser, Ray O'Connor, the former Eventing Championships, which was an eques- Premier. The programme of events came in for trian event, and the Swan Premium Australian some criticism early in the piece with respect to Showjumping Series. He then organised a attendances at the first event which, I think, special netball event which was welt attended was the equestrian event. Since then, it has and later there was some international squash, developed a marvellous head of steam and a marathon in which the NZI Securities people Western Australians appreciate that there is a were involved, and later on the cycling, with sequence of major sporting events coinciding the Griffin 1000 cycling tour which culminated with the America's Cup and that some of the in Perth some weeks ago. world's best sportsmen and women are being The same Festival of Sport organised the brought here over this period. Australian Football Championships which saw When the former Premier outlined his idea the WAFE versus the Victorian Football to the House in his valedictory speech, it League at Subiaco, in October of this year. Only sounded a good idea and it is now being put last weekend we had the international golfers, into place. I was not able to go to the football Jan Stephenson and Greg Norman, and other match that was part of the festival, but I know international golfers at Karrinyup participating that it was the best final-round game of all the in a very successful event. grand finals held around Australia. All the foot- Mr Taylor: The Quit campaign got some ball grand finals around Australia were one- sponsorship from it too. sided, except f'or the match that took place here between Subiaco and Hawthorn, which was a Mr CASH: I take the point made by the Min- very close and exciting match. More than any- ister. The Quit campaign achieved some suc- thing else, that match helped get the America's cess with advertising, and I think that augurs Cup Festival of Sport events up and running well. It was a combination of effort by the properly and focused attention on events in the Government and the Festival of Sport. city and around Western Australia. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986]189 4897

It is a great credit to Ray O'Connor and his Mr Blaikie: In addition to the $340 000, you organisers; and the golfing fraternity of this also committed another $250 000 to the same State that we have just been able to see the organisation for consultancy fees? world's greatest golfer of the moment, Greg Mr Taylor: No, that is sponsorship. Norman, play here. I think it was a feather in our cap to be able to attract a person of that Mr BRIAN BURKE: There are also auxiliary stature in the golfing scene and for it to have or associated matters. It is not all to the Ray such an exciting finish over the weekend. I pay O'Connor Consultancy for the Ray O'Connor tribute to Ray O'Connor and those people or- Consultancy. There are considerable expenses ganising it because it has been a very successful associated with air fares and overhead costs series of events and it has helped to broaden that we bear that are not to do with sponsor- the perspective of the America's Cup. I believe ship and are not payments to the Ray that the Government will suppont it and it is O'Connor Consultancy for its services, but are worthy of that support. incidental or necessary costs incurred. Mr BLAIKIE: The Treasurer has given an Mr BRIAN BURKE: I thank members for account of what the $230 000 estimate is for. their contribution. The money for the 1986-87 The Minister for Agriculture would certainly estimate is for the Ray O'Connor Consultancy recall that I raised this matter last year during and associated matters. There is S1 million left this part of the proceedings. I raised the matter unspent from last year because we were unsure following a couple of weeks of questioning in of the demand that would be put on us for the House about the Government's involve- different things. Therefore, we put in a global ment in the America's Cup. amount and we then simply did not use that It was while the Minister for Agriculture was global amount because in most cases we were in charge of the Bill that he gave the full details. able to take money from the tourism budget or At that stage he said $4 000 was to be paid, and from some other area. That is why we had another amount of some $200 000 for sponsor- about $1 million unspent. ship of the concert. We all know that was the With respect to the Festival of Sport, I con- Paul Gadenne concert which suffered a rather cur with the remarks made by the Opposition horrific loss. What members did not under- members. The decision by the Health Depart- stand at that stage was that the Government ment to sponsor part of the America's Cup Fes- had underwritten that concert. That is a scan- tival of Sport has proven to be a very wise dal of the worst order. Taxpayers' money went decision and good publicity is flowing from it. out to the extent of $205 684 for one concert, the revenue of which was not sufficient to I understand that some major events in the cover costs. Festival of Sport are still to be run and staged. It is not good enough for the Treasurer to The State Government is committed to the come here and blatantly say to us what the support of the America's Cup Festival of Sport expenditure is for. I want to indicate that I and if there is any sponsorship shortfall it is support Ray O'Connor Consultancy, and what likely that the State Government will look at it is doing is of benefit to Western Australia. reconsidering its decision not to provide any The Government has an obligation to give a sponsorship. I give that advance warning. It detailed account of expenditure and what it would reconsider its decision on the basis that will do. the Festival of Sport has done a good job. That Last year the Minister for Agriculture said $1 decision has not yet been made, of course, and million was for projects. This was out of $1.7 we hope we will be able to cover all the spon- million which I indicated earlier. The sum of sorship costs involved. However, if in dis- $411 000 was for organising international cussions we find that there is a shortfall in sporting events, and $350 000 for an inter- sponsorship we will talk sympathetically to Mr national concert presentation expected to be O'Connor about a shortfall. We are not obliged fully covered by ticket sales. The $1 million to pay anything in sponsorship. was for other projects which were to be evaluated. Mr Blaikie: I take it that last year you actu- ally paid out $340000 to the Ray O'Connor The Treasurer is handling the hard cash of Consultancy? Western Australians. He does not mind whack- ing up charges by ive, 10, or 20 per cent, in- Mr BRIAN BURKE: I am not sure that that creasing the fuel franchise levy for motorists was all Ray O'Connor Consultancy. and all the rest of it. The Treasurer has a re-

(154) 4898 4898(ASSEMBLY) sponsibitity to come clean and explain what he These items highlight the criticism I have of wants the funds for. He has a $1 million slush this type of debate. I do not want to have a fund and he should tell the Parliament what he slanging match with the Treasurer; I want a will spend it on. Ke did not tell the Parliament proper account of t he items so that all members last year and he has not done it this year. Very have an understanding of them. It will lead to little was said about this Paul Gadenne concert. an improvement on the pant of the Govern- I guarantee that if every member of Parlia- ment, a more enlightened Parliament, and a ment, and especially every Liberal member of better expenditure of taxpayers' funds. That is Parliament. had understood that that concert what we are here for-to ensure that taxpayers' would be paid for by the taxpayer to the extent funds are spent wisely. of $250 aao, the Treasurer would not have got the item through the Parliament. It got through In the light of the information I have today, the Parliament because the Treasurer did not it is a pity I did not demand a better expla- tell the Parliament what his intentions were. nation from the Minister 12 months ago. If I had known then what I know now, I would Mr Brian Burke: Oh, shut up! have tried to ensure that that item was not Mr BLAIKIE: The Treasurer can tell me to approved. shut up if he wants to. Mr BRIAN BURKE: It may surprise the Mr Brian Burke: Stop shouting. member for Vasse to know that had I known Mr BLAIKIE: I raised this matter last year the money would not have been covered by the with all good intentions. I learnt the lesson 12 ticket sales, I would not have approved the months ago that when a Minister gives a flip- item. He is not a genius, and he is not the only pant answer, we should go a little further. I person with the benefit of hindsight who might want detail of how the Treasurer will spend the have changed his or her actions. He does not $I million. have a monopoly on hindsight. Mr Brian Burke: What S1 million are you When the member was answered last year he talking about? was answered honestly. The intention was that Mr BLAIKIE: If the Treasurer will wait I will the costs would be recovered from ticket sales. explain it to him. Twelve months ago We raised They were not. That they were not is a matter this very point, and the Minister in charge- of considerable embarrassment to me and to the Government. I have said that publicly and Mr Brian Burke: You are taking the issue. repeatedly. But that does not mean that he was The $1 million is not there; you have made a mistake. You are talking about $1 million from answered incorrectly or dishonestly. I-e was last year. told the truth. Mr BLAIKIE: I will deal with my expla- Mr Blaikie: I did not say that. nation. Twelve months ago I asked the Minis- *Mr BRIAN BURKE: What the member said ter what that SI million was for, and he said it was, had he known that this was going to hap- was for projects which were to be evaluated. pen, he would never have approved this item. The $1 million had not been spent, but that was only by good luck; it was certainly not by Mr Blaikie: You would have done the same good management. It is only through the odd thing. incidental items and by accident that members have come across these items. Mr BRIAN BURKE: Absolutely. Had we been aware before the concert was held that The America's Cup is a fantastic concept for people were not going to buy tickets- Western Australia. A couple of hundred thou- sand dollars will be spent, which is a very good Mr Blaikie: I believe our system of reviewing idea, but when talking about taxpayers' money expe nd iture i s wrong a nd needs to be cha nged. there is an obligation for the Government to give a proper and full account of what the ex- Mr BRIAN BURKE: How could you change penditure is for. The amount given last year the system without going through a time warp was for a failed concert. If members had and winding back to the day before the con- realised that $200 000 was for that, I doubt that cert? the Treasurer would have sot it through the Mr Lightfoot- Just keep out of these things Parliament. Who would stand by and support a which do not concern you. Government which would support that project as well? It is arrant nonsense. Several members interjected. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986] 499949

Mr BRIAN BURKE: The young bloke is well, all sorts of costs incurred over and above learning. I am getting old. I am starting to his consultancy, for things like travel and other shake because members opposite are chopping expenses that we have agreed to pay. me up. I can hardly cope any more. The press- Item 109: Compensation-W.A. and A. ure is too much! I-emnsley- Had I known there would have been a loss of Mr TUBBY: I presume this is compensation $205 000, 1 would not have had the concert. I for loss of income by the Hemsleys for having cannot be any more forthright than that. I did found themselves four years ago in the unfortu- not know, when the member was asking ques- nate situation of seeing rare plants discovered tions last year. that there would be a loss of that on their property. Because of the discovery the amount. Hemnsleys were deprived of carrying on their Mr MacKinnon interjected. normal farming operation and the running of Mr BRIAN BURKE: We have cancelled it an Angora goat enterprise and also from already. According to the logic of the member developing a considerable gravel deposit on the for Vasse, we have a saving. Now he wants to property which was estimated to be worth know what we are doing with the saving. $200 000 to the family. Mr Read: You should have a new one, cancel This has been a considerable problem for the it, and make $[ million. Hemnsley family over the past four years and it Mr BRIAN BURKE: We do not want to nearly broke them as a family and financially. make $1 million, because the member for They have received a considerable amount of Vasse would want to know where the money sympathy because of the trauma they have was. There is no $1I million. The member for been through while waiting an assessmcnt of Vasse keeps going on as though there was this their loss of income. mysterious and mythical $1 million. The $1 I would like the Treasurer to explain how the million has not sat there by itself, unspent and figure of $180 000 was arrived at, because I virginal, looking for somewhere to go. The believe the amount claimed was fully substan- money goes back into Consolidated Revenue. tiated and considerably in excess of this figure. so we might have a dollar going to the ambu- Is this the final assessment? lance services or a dollar to the Department of Mr Brian Burke: Absolutely. There was quite Agriculture. a lot of argument back and forth and this Mr Blaikie: I understand that. was the very limit we could go to according to Mr BRIAN BURKE: Then why ask our advice. interminably where the $1 million is? Mr TUJBBY: This will be a considerable dis- Mr Blaikie: I was told the $1 million was for appointment to the family considering the projects to be evaluated. trauma they have been through, especially after a fully substantiated figure in excess of Mr BRIAN BURKE: That is right. We often $ 180 000 was arr ived at. have global figures in the Budget. We had a global figure for staff two or three years in a Mr BRIAN BURKE: This case had its origin row and the member never raised an objection. in June 1981 and Government officers have been quite unfairly criticised in some cases for Mr Blaikie: At least it was identified in the actions that have not been their responsibility. area of staff. I believe the Hemnsleys have been treated fairly Mr BRIAN BURKE: Would the member be in the matter of compensation and are entitled happier if next time we did not put it in? Then to the compensation that has been offered and he could not say he had been misled. accepted. I cannot tell him how much we will be paying Nevertheless, I have become weary of hear- Ray O'Connor Consultancy. It is an estimate. ing all about the extra amount the Hemnsleys Mr Blaikie: He has done a good job. should have received. As far as we can deter- Mr BRIAN BURKE: I agree. If there is any mine they are not entitled to receive any more shortfall in sponsorship, as I foreshadowed we than has been offered and accepted. In fact will be looking sympathetically at filling that there is an argument to say that this is a very shortfall, although we are not obliged to. Our generous settlement. contract is not for sponsorship and we are not It was reached on the following basis: An sponsoring any events. The $230 000 is not just exchange of various parcels of land on payment a payment for his services, but for fixed costs as of $11 000 by the Hemnsleys; approval for the 4900 4900[ASSEM BLYJ

subdivision of land owned by the I-emsleys;, However, I also feel that electorate offices are a the State to pay $61 000 to the Hemnsleys as luxury for members who live close to Parlia- compensation for the loss of the right to mine ment House. Just as with home rental, when gravel on land transferred to the State; and on money goes towards rent rather than towards payment of $50 000 by the Hemnsleys. the con- the purchase of a home, we are squandering version of provisional authorisation to a Con- money on metropolitan electorate offices. We tinuing authorisation for the prawning vessel are going nowhere with this escalation in costs Kiaina 11 to operate in the Exmouth Gulf lim- of electorate offices. ited entry prawn fishery. Following unfortunate I remind the Committee that sometime some delays in the implementation of the agreement, Government somewhere will need to do some- the State provided additional compensation of thing about improving the facilities of this 1180 000 to the Hemnsleys for which provision place. We all know that the two Chambers were is accordingly made. built in 1902, that the building was tinned up The 1180000 is for the delay in the im- at the front, and that it was a great contribution plementation of the package. We think it is a by our forefathers. Yet, it was not until 62 very fair package. We do not believe the years later, in 1964, that someone was prepared Hemnsleys are without fault in the matter. The to spend money on extending this building. member for Greenough knows as well as I do We all know that although the facilities of that I saw them on a few occasions, and every Parliament House are totally inadequate the time I saw them they chopped and changed, as Treaurer would be roundly criticised if he had they did with the member himself. We were the courage to bite that bullet. Yet, sooner or never quite sure what they were claiming. later it will have to be done, if not by the Mr Laurance: In their defence, because it Treasurer, then by the Parliament. The Oppo- went so long and was so complex they did get a sition has just as great a responsibility to sup- bit distraught. port the Government in a decision such as this. Mr BRIAN BURKE: I do not disagree, and I was prepared to support the extending of that is why I personally tried to treat them as Parliament House and I still do. To the best of kindly as possible and did not criticise them my knowledge I think I was the only member publicly. Even though they were sharply critical who did. Maybe fools rush in where angels fear both of me and the Government We refrained to tread, but there is never a right time to do from saying anything because we understood things such as extending Parliament Houses. they were disappointed and upset. The settle- This is not intended as a criticism of the ment is as fair as we can make it. Treasurer. I am giving him some support for Mr Laurance: Both political parties have what I believe will need to be done, and done been involved, so I am not criticising just this soon, and I hope that we have other parliamen- Government. But a mistake was made and tarians who will have the courage to support there should be a way to overcome it in the him. future. Item 113: Fringe Benefits Tax- Mr BRIAN BURKE: It worries me that we Mr LAURANCE: This is a diabolical item became involved. I am also worried by reports to be included in the Budget. It should not be a that this so-called unique plant has been found part of our Budget. We are disappointed that growing in all sorts of places. When the prob- the Government has not fought this tax as it lem became as intractable as it did, we tried to has been fought by two States, Queensland and help the Hemnsleys. Tasmania, which have taken the case to the Mr Laurance: That is acknowledged. High Court of Australia. The Treasurer has seen fit not to challenge the tax and we believe Mr BRIAN BURKE: If the Deputy Leader of he has let the State down. The Hawke Govern- the Opposition wants to write to me about it I ment has imposed a further tax burden on the will have another look at it. people of Western Australia and this Govern- Item Ill;L Electorate Offices- ment has supported it. Mr CRANE: The vote for this item is in- It is one of the worst forms of new taxes we creasing each year. In fact, it has increased by have seen. Not only does it fall on business $100 000 in the last 12 months. I would be the people, but also on the State Government. first to agree that electorate offices for mem- A total of $ 3.4 m illi on o f taxpaye rs' money will bers of Parliament who live a considerable dis- be paid out of State coffers into Federal coffers tance from Parliament House are a necessity. to meet this fringe benefits tax. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986]190 4901

The fringe benefits tax has made the Labor I understand that the cost to the mining in- Party so unpopular around Australia that the dustry has been horrendous. As part of the Federal Labour Government decided to snip Government's exercise it was estimated that it around the edges of the tax to take away some would have cost the industry about $20 of the rough edges. The changes meant that the million. Even after the latest round of amend- Commonwealth would lose about $70 million ments, the impact on the Western Australian or 10 per cent of the total of $700 million that mining industry is in the order of $45 million. would have been paid under the original tax. It is a tremendous impost to place on an indus- I have mentioned in this House many times try to which we should be giving every encour- the impact that this tax will have on remote agement. After all, Australia is going through areas of the State. Businesses have to provide difficult times and its people are being education benefits, housing benefits, and travel exhorted to work harder and export more. benefits to workers to go to those harsh areas of What. does that Commonwealth Government the State. One small retailer with a number of do? It imposes upon the mining sector a non- outlets in the north-west estimated that he recoverable cost! I use the term "non-recover- would have to retail an additional $600 000 able cost" because you, Mr Chairman, would worth of stock per year to pay the tax. It was be aware that the world market for iron ore is thought that the tax would impact hardest on becoming more competitive today. The the employers. However, the great danger for Japanese are looking for price reductions, not the Labor Party is that the tax will eventually price increases. Hence, the industry will have hit the worker. its margins squeezed even further and its ability to involve itself in downstream Mr Brian Burke: The "farewell Bob tax!" processing will be severely limited. Mr LAURANCE: It could also be the The Federal Government stands condemned "farewell Brian tax". for the imposition of this tax. The Opposition Mr MacKINNON: Has the Government has consistently said that it would support the calculated its liability for the first instalment of tax if it were introduced in a proper manner, the fringe benefits tax? Will the Treasurer ad- but in a non-deductible form and imposed as it vise us what that instalment is? I think it will has been, the tax has received the condem- be somewhere near 25 per cent of the total of nation it deserves Australia-wide. $3.5 million. I understand the return has to be Whatever the Treasurer wants to call the in by the end of the week. fringe benefits tax, I call it the "finish Bob tax" Mr Brian Burke: With the latest changes, we because it will finish his term as the Prime don't know the exact figures. Minister of this country if it is not repealed Mr MacKINNON: When does the return very soon. have to be in? Item 123: Remote Commercial Television Ser- Mr Brian Burke: By the end of the month. vice- Mr MacKINNON: And it is now 26 Mr COWAN: I would be interested to learn November. That highlights a very important where these funds will be dispersed and which question. If the State Government, with all its area will benefit. An amount of $1.764 million resources, is having difficulty in gathcring in- will be expended. I was aware that the Com- formation to lodge this return, what hope have monwealth Government allocated substantial businesses. The Premier said in jest that the tax funding for a remote area television service. I has been termed "the finish Bob tax". was not aware that the State Government made Mr Brian Burke: I did not say that. I said any commitment. "the farewell Bob tax". Mr BRIAN BURKE: Cabinet approved a Mr MacKINNON: As long as the fringe ben- subsidy of up to $2 million per annum to en- efits tax remains, the Prime Minister and the sure that commerical television would be avail: Federal Government will suffer the electoral able to some 10 000 remote area residents and consequences as will this Government. that it would be provided by a Western Australian company undertaking a significant The mining industry, together with the rural degree of regional programme content. industry, are probably the hardest-hit indus- tries in Western Australia. The mining sector Mr Cowan: OWN? which is based in remote areas is subject to the Mr BRIAN BURKE: It turns out to be harshest penalties and the rural industry is least OWN, but we simply informed the tribunal able to afford any impost at the current time. which was hearing applications for a remote 4902 4902[ASSEMBLY) area television licence that we would provide a Mr MacKinnon: What other events has it subsidy of up to $2 million per year. Neither of conducted? the two applicants could provide the service Mr BRIAN BURKE: It has not conducted without a subsidy. We thought, because we any. The $ 550 000 is designed to underpin its have great respect for the Leader of the efforts to begin attracting events, to ensure also National Party, that people in remote areas that wherever the State's commitment is should not be geographically isolated from required-that is, for the swimming champion- commercial television. ships-it is able to say we will give $1 for $2. It The subsidy is to be paid direct to Aussat Ply has been successful because we will have the Ltd to reduce the satellite transponder hire cost 1990 swimming championships in Perth. to the successful licence applicant. The success- M r MacKinnon: I thought it was because you ful licence applicant was Golden West Net- were going to spend the money on Beattie Park. work. Mr BRIAN BURKE: Not so much on Beattie There has been a change in that the Govern- Park, but on the new aquatic centre. Some of ment is paying 70 per cent of the transponder the events will be held at Beattie Park. I ask the costs. That means it will cost less than $2 Minister for Tourism whether the events will million this year and more than $2 million next be held at Beattie Park. year. We have an agreement whereby if it makes a profit we will reduce our Mrs Beggs: I considered it would be a mix. commitment. Mr BRIAN BURKE: I thought it would be a Item 127: Western Australian Events Foun- backup. dation- Mr MacKinnon. If it is a backup, I am sur- Mr MacKINNON: I would appreciate the prised it is spending $6 million on upgrading it. Treasurer's advice as to what this amount is for Mrs Beggs: They are not spending that and what events it will cover. I thought the WA amount of money for the swimming champion- Events Foundation came under the auspices of ships; Beattie Park needs upgrading. WADC. Mr MacKinnon: That is the reason they gave Mr BRIAN BURKE: The WA Events Foun- when the announcement was made. dation has already satisfactorily assisted in an application for the world swimming champion- Mr BRIAN BURKE: That was partly the ships and is assisting with an application for a reason. That is the funding the Government is world athletics championship. giving to the WA Events Foundation so it can discharge its obligation to it in a commericat The amount of $550 000 is a new item and it way. I do not know of any event it is pursuing is intended to fund the foundation without ref- except for an athletics championship. erence to specific planned events to achieve its primary objectives which are- Item 129: Wittenoom Assistance Scheme- to impact favourably on the economy of Mr MacKINNON: I would like to know the Western Australia by initiating or reason for the allocation of this amount to the facilitating major sporting. entertainment Wittenooni Assistance Scheme, and what was and commercial events that produce tour- the expenditure on this item last year. ism or inrvestment benefits;, In recent days I have seen announcements in to assist in the management of Govern- the Press about the future of Wittenoom. I ask ment-supported events and to promote the Treasurer to outline the plans for the cur- Government and private sector joint par- rent town of Wittenoom. Is an alternative site ticipation. to be established? if so, where will it be estab- Mr Cowan: Is that in Western Australia? lished and, if that is to be the case, what contri- Mr BRIAN BURKE: Yes, the events will be bution will the State Government make to the held in Western Australia. its funding will re-establishment of that township? come from- Mr BRIAN BURKE: I do not know the latest the commercial returns of events staged: information about the proposed new township. sponsorship provided by the private sec- The Minister for The North West knows about tor;, the State Government where the foun- this matter but he is not present in the daion is managing Government's partici- Chamber tonight. pation in events: and commercial fees. No decision has been made on the new town It really arises from the failed concert, and the but there is talk about relocating it 43 kilo- abandonment of the ne~xt concert. metres from the lownsite. We want to encour- [Wednesday, 26 November 19861 404903 age people to leave Wittenoom because we prior to 31 March 1981. It is not that we are think it is dangerous to live there. The White preventing people from having electricity or industry put forward a proposal about this site. water. They may have it but we will not con- Mr Rushton: You have a definite lime when nect new properties and the assistance is people will not get any more power. provided only to those people who were resi- dent prior to 31 March 198 1. Mr BRIAN BURKE: We are increasing by $360 000 the money available to encourage Mr MacKINNON: The Opposition totally people to leave. We are not forcing them out. supports the Government's move in trying to Mr Rushton: You are turning their water off. clean up Wittenoom. We believed in that when in Government and we also do in Opposition. Mr BRIAN BURKE: No, we are not, The It is not possible to realistically clean up the member for Dale should not be so silly. It is an town to make it a safe health risk. However, we awful thing to accuse us of turning people's were always of the view, and continue to be, water off. that if the residents are to be encouraged to Mr Rushton: It is the same with electricity. leave Wittenoom, and the town is to be closed, Mr BRIAN BURKE: Whose electricity? an alternative must be provided nearby. Mr Rushton: The people of Wittenoomn. When we were in Government two alterna- tives were put forward; one within eight or nine Mr BRIAN BURKE: No, we are not. kilometres of the town and the other 40 kilo- Mr Rushton: You said there will not be any metres or so down the main road. more electricity after a certain date. Mr Peter Dowding: Your recollection is ab- Mr BRIAN BURKE: We said that we would solutely faulty because I was involved at the not connect any new properties. time. You in fact directed that the place be What about the brand new power station the closed down and you offered people $1 500 to Liberal Government built just before it closed move out of the town. They did not even get down the place? enough to take their furniture to Karratha. Mr Rushton: I did not do it. Mr Brian Burke: Now you are saying that Mr BRIAN BURKE: Who did it? The mem- you told them they could move to the bush and bers opposite are heading for the ridges, no-one that they could have $1 500 to move them- wants to take the blame. selves, their kids, and their dogs. Mr MacKinnon: Wittenoom is an important Mr MacKINNON: The Treasurer and the tourist town and I would have thought that the Minister for Industrial Relations can prattle on Minister for Tourism would be interested in all they like with untruths and red herrings. the alterations. Mr Grill: You gave them no alternative. Mr BRIAN BURKE: The Minister for Tour- Mr MacKINNON: The Miniser's own ism knows a great deal about these things. Treasurer admitted that we examined one Mr MacKinnon: I am interested to know alternative through the White industry study. also. Mr Brian Burke: That came to us. Mr BRIAN BURKE: It is the first thing all night on which the Leader of the Opposition Mr MacKINNON: Yes, but who com- has not said he knows better than we do. missioned it? The Government has allocated an additional Mr Brian Burke: We commissioned it, you 1360 000 to encourage people to move. We are dummy. not forcing people out, we are not cutting off Mr MacKINNON: We commissioned that water or electricity or anything else. We are report. grants for removal expenses, offering providing interjected. to purchase houses and blocks at market price, Several members purchasing businesses at fair market value, and The CHAIRMAN: Members are becoming the buildings we purchase are being very noisy and their behaviour is most unbe- demolished. This is probably where the mem- coming. I thought this legislation was proceed- ber for Dale is a little confused about how the ing quite well, but when five people interject assistance is being provided. It is only being from the Government side, it is most provided to people who resided in Wittenoom unparliamentary. Also, I think the Leader of prior to 31 March 1981 and to current owners Her Majesty's Opposition should not invite in- of property who held title to the properties terjections in his participation in the debate. 4904 4904[ASSEMBLY]

Mr MacKINNON: When the Treasurer says Mr MaCKINNON: Whatever the Govern- that we have encouraged people to live in the ment might say, our point of view on bush, it shows how seriously he addresses this Wittenoom is this: We would support the clos- issue. It is a ridiculous comment. We never ure of the town. We do not believe there is any made that decision and we never would. reasonable way of cleaning up the town within Mr Peter Dowding: Would the Leader of the a reasonable budget. However, at the same Opposition agree that 1 was probably time we believe an alternative site should be involved- created to enable the people of Wittenoom to relocate, should that be their wish. From the Mr MacKINNON: I ask you. Mr Chairman, point of view of the tourist industry in this to rule against the Minister for Industrial Re- State, positive encouragement should be given lations because I am endeavouring to continue for some tourist operators to develop facilities my speech and I did not invite the interjection. there. The CHAIRMAN: On that occasion the Leader of the Opposition did not invite the Mr Peter Dowding interjected. interjection. It was surprising to note that the Mr MacKINNON: I am pleased to hear the interjection by the Minister for Industrial Re- Minister for Industrial Relations say lations could have been deemed to be of a dis- Wittenoom is not an important tourist town orderly nature. and that we should not be encouraging tourism Mr MacKINNON: We had an alternative in that area. He said we do not need facilities site. We commissioned a iwudy by the White there and that we do not want tourists to go to industry to examine the alternative site and we the town. The Minister is such a lightweight would have re-examined that process to see that he has to go to media classes before he goes whether it was commercially viable. We would on television. I would suggest he go to elo- have provided some support and assistance for cution classes, as I should, to learn how to people to relocate to those areas. The people of speak. Wittenoom knew that very well. Our point of view on Wittenoom is crystal I return to the comment made by the Minis- clear. The Premier does not even know whether ter for Industrial Relations about the scant there will be an alternative town. He is not amount of money offered to the people to interested in the creation of an alternative tour- relocate. ist facility so that one of the most outstanding Mr Brian Burke: How much was it? tourist areas in this State can properly be promoted. The Minister for Tourism sits Mr MacKINNON: It was in the order of mutely, making no comment at all. This $I 500 and minimal transfer expenses. How- Government is closing down an important ever, I believe that we as a Government made a tourist asset of this State-a town where people mistake in that regard. want to remain, to live in that area and Provide Mr Brian Burke: Why blame us then? services to it-and the Premier says, "I do not know whether there will be another town.'' Mr MacKINNON: I am not blaming the Government for the decision; it was our de- I say to the people of Wittenoomn: On our cision. return to Government there will be a new town, Mr Peter Dowding: You did not buy their with tourist facilities, and we will ensure that businesses or offer to buy-them. that area of Western Australian gets the atten- tion it properly deserves. Mr MacKINNON: That is an untruth, the Minister knows that we bought some. Division 31 put and passed. Several members interjected. Divisions 32 to 94 postponed, on motion by Mr MacKINNON: I would appreciate being Mr Pearce (Leader of the House). able to get a couple of words in edgeways in the Postponed Divisions 15 to 30 now considered. last six minutes remaining to me. Division 15: Deputy Premier's Office, The CHAIRMAN: Order! That is a fair re- $366000- quest. I ask members on the Government side to desist from these interjections. if they Mr COURT: I indicate to the Deputy have a message, I ask them to pass it to the Premier that the member for Floreat will be Treasurer who is probably the most competent commenting on items in Part 3 of the Esti- speaker this Chamber has ever seen. mates. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986] 490590

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I would ask those Government has made Budget cutbacks and people conducting their little meetings to be a has decided not to meet its commitment to little quieter. Our Mansard reporters do an out- supply computers to schools. standing job in this place, but it is hard for I know that is not directly concerned with them to hear the member for Nedlands, who this Division, but when I consider the amount speaks very clearly, when I can hear six other of money involved here and in other sections of conversations on my right and only two on my the technology bureaucracy, I would have left. I ask members to keep their conversations thought that some method of taking a bit from down. here and a bit from there would have made it Mr COURT: There is a relatively small vote Possible for the Government to meet that com- for the Deputy Premier's Office, yet the allo- mitment. I am sure the Minister for Industr cation for salaries has doubled since last year. I and Technology himself must be horrified at ask why this office has experienced such an the fact that the Government has had to renege expansion of staff. It would appear that the on that decision. policy officers appointed are much needed. I Mr Bryce: Not renege-delay. will refer in more detail to that subject when later Divisions are discussed. Mr COURT: Or to delay that decision. As the Minister for Industry and Technology I also ask what is covered under item 4, Ser- knows only too well, the best place to start this vices and Contracts. whole technology business is in the schools. Mr BRYCE: There has been very little in- Really that should be the last place the Govern- crease at all. It is all virtually explained by their ment makes Budget cuts, and it should be its transfer to my office as Deputy Premier follow- first priority to ensure that children going ing the reallocation of portfolios after the 1986 through the education system have plenty of election, when I became the Minister for Par- access to computer training. It is becoming liamentary and Electoral Reform. more and more important that everyone has an understanding of computers, as they are be- Mr Court: Is that the difference? coming a simple aid. Someone mentioned to Mr BRYCE: Yes, that is the $95 000. For the me recently that we should all be taught key- remainder of the Estimates there has been board skills so that we may have a better scarcely an inflationary increase. knowledge of how to use the machines. Division 15 put and passed. Mr Taylor: We might not have to use key- board skills at all in a few years' time. Division 16: Computing and Information Technology, $7 926 000- Mr COURT: True, we have little mice, and so on. In the United States just about everyone Mr COURT: Computing and Information learns to type. I can recall going to work in a Technology is an important area in any modem company there just after I finished university, business operation, and the business of where I hand-wrote my assignments and paid Government is no exception. However, some someone to type the important ones. When I concern has been expressed about the role this went to the United States I found that people department is playing, and whether it is doing studying for degrees, male and female, were all the efficient job that it should be. taught typing skills in school. They made me Under Computing and Information Tech- very envious because they could type much nology and some other Divisions that will be faster than I could write. discussed later, when we will look at the vote Mr Taylor: I went to the Rocky Bay Village on the Western Australian Technology Devel- on Stirling Highway this morning. Some of the opment Authority, we are talking about the kids there have incredible computer skills. One whole technology area. I believe the bureauc- could operate a computer-just by using her racy involved should be rationalised consider- chin. ably. In the Division under discussion the staff are responsible for advising various Govern- Mr COURT: I know, that is one of the ad- ment departments as to the sorts of computer vances that has been made. However, keyboard systems they require, and for trying to achieve skills are very important. some uniformity in compatibility in some I would like to think the Deputy Premier was areas. All in all, that role requires a lot of one of the people fighting to raise the priority people and a very large Budget vote, as mem- of computers in schools higher up the list. if bers can see from the Estimates. Yet the one looks at the amount of money being spent 4906 4906(ASSEMBLY] in this section 1am sure something could have tails of how the Government is trying to assist come out of here to help meet that commit- some smaller companies making that type of ment. equipment, but they are the hardware people My other concern relates to the processes the who should be supported. Government goes through when it is about to Do the Deputy Premier's responsibilities for make a major computer purchase. There is a lot communications come under this item? at stake when some of these decisions are made. If a department is about to install a new Mr Bryce: Yes, there is a very small office of system or undertake a big expansion of its communications, and it is under the umbrella existing system. a lot of money is involved, and of DOCIT. the market is very competitive. Those people Mr COURT: The communications field is have to provide the information so the differ- one of the most exciting developments taking ent Govern mernt departments can make the place in technology. It is exciting because comn- right decisions. There will always be sour munications are so vital in a State the size of grapes when decisions are made and people Western Australia which is remote from other coming to us and claiming there has been major population centres and other countries. favouritism and that they had a better system It hit home to me a few months ago-andI but the Government did not go for it. I will not have mentioned this in the Chamber-when I get involved in specific deals because I am sure was in Halls Creek. People there were listening many of the complaints put to me are just to ABC radio and they had not had good recep- that-sour grapes. tion before. A race meeting was on and some- I would like to think there is an opportunity one had set up a receiver for satellite communi- here not just for a department to say we should cation. People were listening to the ABC in be buying this or that, but much more has to be great excitement whereas we take it for granted. done to get software and hardware sourced In Fitzroy Crossing people were watching the within this State. When these agreements are "Ray Martin Show" at lunchtime. As well as made, offset packages are put forward in which that, some form of videotex was available, and IBM and other manufacturers say. "if you buy they were looking at the latest stock exchange this gear we will give you this set of goodies." reports. There are a lot of mad prospectors and they are usually packaged in a form which around that part of the world, and they were is very saleable politically. The person an- tickled pink to get the quotes on the screens. It nouncing the decision can say, "We are going makes the State seem a lot smaller. That is why to buy these computers, and the companies the revolution taking place in communications concerned will put in a special software sec- is so interesting. tion." There is a lot of nonsense associated The Deputy Premier chaired a session on with that. I would rather get the goods for the communications at the PacRim conference, best possible price and at the same time drive a and it was interesting to see the competition hard bargain to get not just the glossy goods, between people selling satellite communication but a stronger commitment for more of the and those selling fibre-optic communications. software and hardware to be sourced in this The two systems are basically working together. State. The advantage of fibre-optics is that more com- Mr Bryce: As a result of that first associated puter information can be put through more benefits deal, IBM has already lodged nearly $1 quickly, but the satellite communication million worth of orders with local companies system had other advantages. We now have a for software to support the machinery put into choice of some of the new methods by which the Government system. In two separate proj- we can get information from around the world. ects of around $420 000, from memory. two I know from people I speak to that Western local companies have received contracts as a Australians are proving to be very innovative direct pant of the offset programme. in making sure they take advantage of the Mr COURT: It is obvious that the area tremendous advances in these fields. Some of where we can benefit most is software, because the entrepreneurs in this town took up owner- I agree we cannot compete with the major ship of television and radio stations early in the hardware items. We are so far behind, and we piece, and now they are moving into the logical are not into that part of the business. The only extensions of those media. We talk about the place to compete in hardware is with some need to export, but it is interesting to see specialist peripheral equipment which is being entrepreneurs setting up television stations in developed in this State. I do not know the de- Papua New Guinea and other countries. There [Wednesday, 26 November 19861 490790

is a lot of expertise in this State in the com- The question of security of information is munications field and many opportunities exist something that worries me. I have listened to for local industry to expand in making the debates in Federal Parliament about the products. This is one area in which they can Australia Card. Members gave examples of make the hardware to take advantage of the how they could match up information from new developments. various Government departments and from the I wrote to the Deputy Premier recently about private sector. We must make sure that there is the ATUG group which wanted easier access proper security and protection of individuals' through radio transmissions into Telecom's rights in regard to the information that is being network. I have received a reply from the stored. Deputy Premier, but I do not have it with me I remember when the Treasurer announced this evening. I would like to think that Telecom either the establishment of DOCIT or the con- moves very quickly with the times. It has a tract for a major new computer operation that I monopoly on the delivery system, but I hope it said the network of the various Government allows people in remote areas the opportuni ty operations includes a tremendous amount of to take advantage of the Telecom network so information. It is of concern to me that it will we can further improve our communications. be possible to link up the different sources of The communications industry in this State will information. As more information is fed into have a tremendous future and the people the network the privacy of individuals will participating in it will be able to develop come under attack. products which the size of the local market could not justify in terms of economic pro- I was interested to hear the comments of the duction. However, they will be so advanced accountant of Repco, a large Eastern States they will be able to find good export markets in company, when he said that the company's many countries which are behind us in computer system had been tampered with. He developing their communication systems- warned that his company had installed an elab- systems which we take for granted. orate password system to ensure that the infor- mation was secure. However, in that case, the The Minister for Industrial Relations will company ran into considerable problems. agree with me that even in the time he has been a member of Parliament there has been an im- Mr BRYCE: I advise the member for provement in the area of communications in Nedlands that the staff establishment of Kununurra. It was only two years ago that there DOCIT is not very large at all. I am in a were a limited number of telephone lines to position to know the comparable staff estab- Kununurra and people had to wait for the tele- lishments in other pants of Australia. I assure phone calls to be put through. the member that the staffing establishment at Mr Peter Dowding: The line was established DOCIT is now only modestly larger than the computer division of the Treasury which was in 1912. established by previous conservative Govern- Mr COURT: When was the new line in- ments to handle computer development within stalled? the public sector. Mr Peter Dowding: I think it was in 1984. The computer division of the Treasury be- Mr COURT: That technology is now out of came the administrative basis of DOCIT and date and a fibre-optic line is being put in place. there has been a modest increase -in the number The fibre-optic line was first installed across of staff. The professional classification of those the Nullarbor Plain. concerned has been changed, but there has not Mr Troy: It has been in Fremantle for some been a blow-out in the number of staff. In fact, years. we have just agreed to a substantial reduction of 20-staff members in the actual establishment Mr COURT: It turned out to be good plan- of DOCIT for the 1986-87 financial year. ning because the demand is now there. Item 1: Salaries, Wages and Allowances- I refer again to the operation of DOCIT. It is my belief that the department is too large. Mr CASH: The Minister for Industry and More efficient ways must be available to pro- Technology has just stated that the establish- vide Government departments with the sort of ment of DOCIT is not much larger than that of service being provided by DOCIT and to en- the computer division of the Treasury. It re- sure that the State is brought up to date with minds me of the old adage, "If you buy a com- new technology. puter, you will save money on staff." 4908 4908[ASSEMBLY]

I note that an allowance has been made for mainframe acquisitions, network implications, 25 temporary assistants and the salary allo- site locations, and contingency disaster plans cation for those staff will almost double this for the State. year. I note also that provision is made for 30 I do not have the precise figures. I know the vacant positions. largest single item involved in accounting for Mr Bryce: There is a simple explanation for that information technology policy expenditure that. is associated with that very large programme. It Mr CASH: In view of the Minister's earlier is probably the biggest single set of policy comments, I am looking for a simple expla- recommendations we have seen and it required nation. the involvement of some very specialised people. Some are not on the staff of the depart- Mr BRYCE: The simple explanation is that ment. It is a very big project. It runs into sev- there is a massive turnover of staff in this div- eral hundred thousand dollars. ision. The skills associated with the work that Mr COURT: One of the main purposes of has to be done are rare and the moment some- DOCIT was to do what the Minister for Indus- one is trained he is likely to be head-hunted by I private companies or other agencies of the try and Technology was talking about. thought that was the guts of it and that is why Government by being offered better salaries so many people are employed there. Their role and conditions. It is probably the only unit of is to develop long-term planning for the Government which experiences this sort of Government. The Minister said they are work- thing and that is the reason for the provision of ing on a major project. I would have thought assistance. At any point in time we temporary that five-year planning for the Government's are unable to obtain sufficient staff to occupy future computer requirements would have been the positions available. what the DOCIT concept was all about. When Mr Cash: It is a training establishment. he says he has to bring in people from outside, Mr BRYCE: It is a training establishment does this mean he is using consultants to assist and human development is one of its major with this development, or do they not have the programmes. expertise among the people already employed there? Mr COURT: Is the Minister saying that be- cause of the difficulties in obtaining skilled Mr BRYCE: It does include those people as staff an allocation of $1 million has been made well. It also incorporates money for policy ad- for salaries and allowances? Does this figure vice to Government on the EPOCHS pro- reflect that there will be an increase in the num- gramme, which is the pilot project for the MPs' ber of staff employed or an increase in the electorate office programme. salaries and allowances that the present staff Mr Court: What has happened with that pro- are being paid? gramme? Mr Bryce: it is the full-year costs of a depart- Mr BRYCE: We anticipate the work will be ment that was in the process of being set up in finished by about I March next year, then the previous year Cabinet will assess the report and make de- cisions associated with it. Mr COURT: DOCIT ran for a full year. Mr Court: I am not familiar with it. What do Mr Bryce: No. many of the positions were you see as the future with respect to electorate not filled. I am referring to the full-year costs. I asked the same questions as you and that is the offices using that equipment? advice I was given. Mr BRYCE: I have absolutely no doubt that at some stage in the future, MPs will have in- Item 3: Information Technology Policy- formation technology equipment of a certain Mr COURT: A considerable amount of configuration, whether they be freestanding money has been set aside for this item and I ask microcomputers with word processors or the Minister to explain the reason that it is a whether they will be connected to a mainframe separate item. I thought the department was as they are in this building and as is intended working in this field. with the new Canberra parliament. EPOCHS Mr BRYCE: The reason it is treated as a means pilot study. It will be drawing to a con- single item is that the Department of Computer clusion by March next year. and Information Technology has been called Mr Clarko: I congratulate the Government on by Cabinet to undertake a major study with on what it has done on these four trial points, a five-year projection. That study is to include and you, personally, for what you did to en- (Wednesday, 26 November 19861 490940 courage the industry. I hope when the trial Mr Bryce: I think it has three or four people, comes to a conclusion it continues in other a couple of policy officers and one support forms. in a few years down the track we will staff. look back and wonder how members of Parlia- ment got on without them. Mr COURT: Could the Minister explain what function they carry out, what expertise Mr BRYCE: I was surprised to hear the they have, what role they play, and whether member for Moore earlier-by implication- they have a close liaison with the Telecom suggest that metropolitan members of Parlia- people? ment did not really need electorate offices. I am mortified to think that there is anyone alive Mr BRYCE: The office of communications is who could dream of taking us back to the days a very small unit of three or four people in total before we succeeded in convincing Hon. John and it was established approximately 12 Tonkin that the 1970s warranted constituency months ago. The two senior professional offices. Whether one is in the country or the officers have an engineering background and city. I am looking ahead with some enthusiasm their essential contribution has been to provide to the most economical configuration of IT advice to Cabinet on some of the more equipment. interesting and important areas of communi- cations development to which the member for Mr Blaikie: I do not have quite the same Nedlands referred a short while ago. The amount of enthusiasm for or competence in the area that has preoccupied them to a very large people you chose for the experiments. When extent in the last 12 months, has been the dis- you do the next experiment. I would like to be tribution of satellite television and information on the top of the list for a facsimile machine. systems to the remote parts of the State. Item 4: Operational Services- The work involved negotiations between the Mr CASH: Given the fact that last year $9.8 Government and the Golden West Network million was spent and this year $7.9 million Ltd. The Treasurer referred to the subsidy in will be spent, one could assume there is a gen- the miscellaneous items. The negotiations were eral reduction overall, but the biggest reduction. handled by officers in that department. That is could be found in the item of operational ser- one classic example of an activity that has vices, where last year the expenditure was just taken a great deal of their time especially con- over $7 million and this year it is anticipated to veying information to people in remote parts of be $2.9 million. Could the Minister explain the the State. The senior engineer spent six weeks various significant reduction in costs in that in the bush, meeting people in the smallest area? towns, responding and providing advice in re- spect of Mr BRYCE: Last year's outturn incorporates the most economic route for them to large items of mainframe expendi- follow to link up to the satellite. Three or four some very different options can be taken depending on ture. Operational services incorporates Centre the size of the community. 4 which is the principle centre. Previously, there was the Justice Information Systems Mr Court: So it is liaising with Golden West Centre, or JISC, the Land Information Systems Network? Centre, or LISC, and Centre 4. They were three very large mainframe systems previously oper- Mr BRYCE: Yes, and also Telecom. We have ated by the computer division of Treasury no intentions-as with defence liaison at a which became the Department of Computing State level-of duplicating the Defence Depart- and Information Technology. Centre 4 is based ment with the Defence Liaison Office, which is in the Education Department, but is jointly run a very small unit inside DID, nor do we intend by DOCIT and the Education Department. It to duplicate the work and efforts of Telecom runs a bureau service for about 15 different with this very small office of communications. Government agencies, which do not have their It has become obvious that a State Government own black boxes. It has a very large horse- in the 1980s and 1990s cannot exist without power. Last year's expenditure incorporated a some tight policy decisions on some of the vital very big outlay to increase the actual power of communications issues. Centre 4, which will not be expended this year. The international communications and the Item 5: Communications Policy Liaison- interstate communications issue will be handled by the Feds for a long time to come. Mr COURT: I-ow many people are working in that policy liaison area? Division 16 put and passed. 4910 4910ASSEMBLY]

Division 17: Industrial Development, industries would automatically be able to pick $12 872 000- up their export markets by the resultant more high ly-competitive position. Mr COURT: I made most of my comments on this matter during the second reading stage I get around to many small manufacturing of the debate but I want to take this oppor- operations in this State. and I think the Minis- tunity to say that the operations of the Depart- ter for Industry and Technology would agree ment of Industrial Development and how they that there are many innovative industries in fit into the Government's scheme of things the community which are taking advantage of cause me considerable concern. the opportunity presented to them. However, in the past they have felt somewhat neglected The Department of Industrial Develop- and it was felt that if a company did not ment-DID-had a pretty clearly-defined role operate in a high-tech Field, it was not the in the past as to what its responsibilities were flavour of the month. and in what fields it could operate. However, About four years ago, the owner of a small since this Government came to power, other business came to see me, and I use his busi- bodies have arisen which appear to have taken ness-manufacturing incinerators-as an many of the DID's functions. There is an air example to demonstrate my point. The gentle- around the place that the DID is desperate to man put the case to me that the business was to find its niche and the areas in which it can be visited by an executive from an American become involved in order to attract industrial company which manufactured very large, soph- development to Western Australia. A major isticated incinerators; the owner wanted to area of concern is the fact that the Western move away from manufacturing small inciner- Australian Development Corporation, Exim. ators and into producing more sophisticated and bodies like that, have themselves become incinerators. He was a bit short of money and involved in many areas which used to be was having some difficulty getting his show on covered by the DID. When one talks to people the road. I believe I have mentioned this associated with those operations, one finds example previously, but I mention it again be- they tend to look on the DID as another cause I recently visited that man's factory. Government department which cannot become At the time, this chap wanted someone to involved as those other bodies do in the differ- give him a bit of credibility so he would have ent projects around. someone to back him up, give him some refer- ences, and generally put in a good word for him I am concerned about the duplication which when the executive came out from the US. I is occurring, whether it be caused by the DID, had a look at his operation; it was very small the WADC, Exim, the South-West Develop- and was being carried out in a garage. He made ment Authority, or any Other body which has they were not the ability to interfere in an area which was small backyard incinerators; previously the high-tech and were rather traditionally made, province of the DID. I believe but the man was determined to manufacture some of these departments should go and there sophisticated incinerators. should not be this duplication. If the Govern- these larger, more ment is going to use one of these bodies, and if When the visiting American came to Perth, Peter it is going to make a lot of noise about, say, the Shack, the Federal member for Tangney, WADC, why not just get rid of the DID and and 1, invited him to Parliament House and put on a bit of a turn-put the American flag amalgamate it into one operation, or vice on the table as it were. We said to the versa? As I said, the duplication which now exists causes me considerable concern. American, "Give him a go; he is a good oper- atorand he has a family which is determined to I refer also to the fact that the Minister for back him. He will be successful." This chap, Industry and Technology spent a lot of time at against great odds and against large businesses, one stage talking about technology. He has both here and in the Eastern States, won the calmed down lately, but I believe the manufac- right to be able to manufacture the American turing industries in general have been incinerators in this country. neglected. In this State and in Australia gener- That was approximately four years ago. ally manufacturing industries were given an op- When I visited his factory about three weeks portunity to become extremely competitive ago, he showed me a map of Australia with internationally when the Australian dollar was little red dots marking sales of one of these devalued. We have heard a lot about Mr more sophisticated incinerators. He has been Keating's i-curve and how the manufacturing extremely successful ift selling incinerators to [Wednesday, 26 November 1986j 491191 operations like the Argyle diamond mine and role, and one where I see the Government act- municipal authorities around Australia, but the ing as a facilitator, not wanting to become thing he wanted to show me was a very large involved in running a business and selling into incinerator-which costs about $500 000 and export markets. The role of the Government is which is very sophisticated and high-tech- to make it easier, particularly for small firms that is to be exported to Hong Kong. He had without financial strength, to break into export won a contract to supply even more of these markets. large units to Hong Kong. It is tremendous that a small operator who started his business off in I keep talking about export markets because a garage only four years ago is now able to build that is where the growth lies. Our market here a substantial factory. He has built up the tends to be relatively small. The Government company's expertise to the point where it is has a genuine role to assist in this area. As I now supplying its product to the Asian market. said last night, Governments should not be taking an equity participation. That is an example of what can be done in this State to take advantage of the large mar- The Government has discriminated against kets, not only within Australia, but in neigh- small businesses, particularly very small ones. bouring countries which require many items of the previous -Government-and this Govern- equipment. I could give other examples of com- ment followed the practice-gave assistance to mon, everyday items such as metal sealing fab- the Federal Government by way of grants for rications for which export markets have been travel requirements and the like. The Govern- found. These businesses have been very suc- mnent was prepared to pay before the Federal cessful and the DID helped a number of them. Government came through with the funds. The DID is doing the best it can, but it is often coming up against the problem that other It is very difficult for a small firm to decide Government corporations are operating in the to develop markets overseas. When the Federal same field. In the case of the other corpor- Government modified its system of giving as- ations, more often than not they want to be- sistance to people breaking into export mar- come involved in some sort of equity and then kets, it tended to neglect the very small people problems arise. There are tremendous and go a few steps up the ladder to help the opportunities available and 1, for one, do not medium and large-sized businesses. That con- accept that manufacturing industries in this cerns me, because getting small businesses off State cannot be a more important part of the the round affords the greatest benefit. growth of the Western Australian economy. I was very pleased to read in the Press that a On the contrary, I am not a supporter of the small business in Albany, Country Leather, has high levels of protection which have propped won another award for its advance in up the manufacturing industry and which, to a exporting. That business operates a relatively large extent, have been responsible for those small facility in the main street of Albany, yet it industries becoming non-competitive. At least has aggressively gone into the United States our manufacturing industries here do not rely market and been very successful. In fact it has upon the same argument that they must have gone into a certain part of the United States high levels of protection. Many of the people I market to sell its sheepskin products. have dealings with have required no protection I think the company has been in business for at all. I I years. I know it cost a lot of money initially, That is the way to go. To get into the markets but it was able to benefit from a previous overseas and to be competitive, one must not scheme which helped it to recover some of the rely on handouts from the Government. When costs of developing that export market. We one starts receiving handouts, the tendency is need thousands of businesses of this type, and to slip backwards and become non-competi- this country will again start going on the road tive. up. We had a lengthy debate last night on the I want quickly to run through this question Government's trading corporation, Exim Cor- of defence liaison and the efforts the different poration. I want to make the point that we are States have been putting into the submarine talking about industrial development and the project. I mentioned during the second reading Government's role in facilitating trade. One of speech that the Government the intentions which the DID has had over the had been concen- years is to assist local industries to attend trade trating all its efforts on this area. fairs in other countries. This is an important Mr Bryce: That is not true. 4912 4912ASSEMBLY)

Mr COURT: I wilt get onto the comments of eral defence people to make sure we get in on the Deputy Premier later. He said recently the some of the exciting projects on which they are Government had started to do work in some working. other areas, but there had been a heavy concen- Ican remember when the Federal Govern- tration of effort on the submarine project. I ment was considering building these catamaran would appreciate an indication from the Depu- minesweepers. I was not involved in politics at ty Premier as to how he sees this State faring the time, but I was in a factory in Queensland when the work for this project is handed out. which was building boats under licence when a We have been following it quite closely over couple of Navy people came into the factory. the years. The Deputy Premier would have to They sat down and we had a general conver- agree that the Opposition has made it very sation. clear to the Government that it will do every- thing it can to assist in trying to win any de- They were desperate to find a company pre- fence contracts for this State. pared to move into the new technology required to build the type of catamaran mine- The submarine contract was going in the swee per they wanted to build. right direction with people like Peter H-orobin, who has tremendous expertise in this area. A Around the same time local people here-Mr very coherent proposition was put together. I Kailis and his crew-were working on the was very concerned when that gentleman left P 150. It was a pity we did not have better the service of the Government. The project is communications between the local manufac- now heading off into a different phase. That turers and the Department of Defence so that was the turning point at which our fortunes we were aware of what it wanted. Mr Kailis was seemed to decline. trying to sell a product which in the end it was apparent the department did not want to buy. Mr Bryce: That is a hell of a reflection on the On the other hand, the defence people were very senior, experienced project development trying to find someone to build a product engineers who took on the next phase. which used the same sandwich construction Mr COURT: I am not reflecting on those tech nology used to builId t he P15 Os. The P 15 0 people. What I am saying is that a person like project was in its early stages of development, Peter Korobin has to operate from start to fin- which is when we need to get involved. If we ish on a project like this. Look at the very good have the contacts to get in on the ground floor programmes which have been put together both we can pick up many good opportunities. in South Australia and in New South Wales! We in this State have every right to be pick- The point people keep mentioning in South ing up more than our fair share of defence con- Australia is that a couple of very senior people tracts, because we have missed out on so many in the Government are determined to get that over the years. I do not care which Govern- contract for that State. ment has been in power here, the fact is we I can only go on what I read in the Press, but have missed out on our fair share of these con- it would appear that South Australia is in a tracts and we are still not getting our fair share. very good position to win a major pan of the There is no reason why that situation should construction work on this submarine project. not be turned around. There will also be tremendous political ramifi- Mr Bryce: One thing we discovered a couple cations for Premier Bannon if he can pull off of years ago which is very central to your argu- that exercise. The Deputy Premier cannot deny ment is that very few WA manufacturers are that there has been local concern about the qualified to achieve the standards necessary for lengths gone to in order to gain that project. It defence work. is very disturbing. Mr COURT: That is a nonsense. The TIC came out publicly with the Confed- Mr Bryce: You try to get defence contracts if eration of WA Industry saying that some major you do not have certification. changes must be made to help win that project. I went through that in my previous speech. Can M r COU RT: Tha t is a fo rm of protect ion fo r the Deputy Premier perhaps give us an update industries in the Eastern States. as to how he sees that project going? More Mr Bryce: When the submarine project got importantly, as he said earlier, people are look- dinkum it turned out that in the whole State of ing four years ahead for their future require- Victoria there were only I13 companies that had ments. It is very important that we operate well the certification. It is not that they cannot get it into the future in defence liaison with the Fed- but that it takes time and trouble. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986]191 4913

Mr COURT: It does take time and trouble. I to meet the quality standards. The most im- can remember back a few years when we were portant thing is to build up a reputation of looking at doing this type of work. They flew being a consistent supplier of quality goods. people over here from Canberra who looked The Deputy Premier might have thought I through the operation and we were faced with a was flying a kite when I spoke about an aircraft minefield of paper to go through. What I industry, but when I looked at some of the learned was that the people in Canberra love Department of Defence's future projects I saw going to Queensland to assist businesses there a reference to three different types of helicop- because it is a nice day trip for them. They can ters and 70 light training aircraft it wanted to go through the factories on the Gold Coast and purchase. There is no reason why industry in talk with the different people knowing that they WA cannot get involved in doing the design can be back home the same day. Coming to and construction work in this sont of field and Western Australia is a major exercise for them. come up with the design breakthroughs It also helped Queensland that the then Federal which one or two smaller aircraft manufac- Minister for Defence was a Queenslander, Sir turers here are starting to achieve presently on James Killen. a very small scale, This is the sort of imaginat- Mr Bryce: It is good that the current Minister ive project we need to get into to become pant. comes from Western Australia. of the defence industry. Industry here should not be scared; it should not accept the idea that Mr COURT; I hope Mr fieazley we are not meant to be a manufacturing centre. unashamedly gives a lot of contracts to WA, There is no reason that we cannot be a major because we deserve more than OUr fair share. manufacturing State. On the subject of quality standards, the I come back to my initial comments and say Deputy Premier would know that in our policy that I am concerned that the Department of prepared for the last election we emphasised Industrial Development has lost many of its the whole question of good design and quality responsibilities to new bodies established by control. These are two very important things the Government. This has not helped the mor- which must not be underestimated. ale of the department. It does not make the department conducive to attracting people who The recent trade mission from Freuli Prov- are go-getters if the Governiment has other ince in Italy came here and presented products bodies which claim the limelight and the ac- made in the region. Their products were no claim for putting deals together. The Deputy different from ours except in the way they were Premier has a problem in this area. Someone designed and presented. Their emphasis is on had better work out how the duplication can be quality and design and that is why these people overcome. The Government needs to decide have such a good reputation. That province which of these bodies should be doing the work represents a small pant of Italy and its trade necessary to encourage indlustrial development members told us that one of their major indus- in WA. I urge the Government not to down- tries is the making of chairs; they make 80 000 play the role that a manufacturing industry can chains a day for export. Those chairs are no play in this State. different from what we can make in our factor- Mr BRYCE: There is only one fundamental ies except that they have concentrated on qual- point I would like to address briefly and that is ity and the latest designs. the question the member for Ne~dlands started But I return to the point raised by the Depu- and concluded with. I would be very happy to ty Premier about our needing to meet quality line up a briefing for members opposite so that standards to be able to win defence contracts. they could be more thoroughly acquainted with Local industry has to be protected. It has to do the programmes that the Department of Indus- its homework but it should not be frightened trial Development and other departments are off. The Government should provide a service carrying out to realise that this current con- to educate businesses to get their factories up to fusion the member for Nedlands speaks about a standard where their products are acceptable exists only in the minds of some people. He has to the Department of Defence. Bunbury has a spoken about this on a number of occasions. small canvas manufacturer who makes tents When our Government was elected in 1983 for the department. He meets its quality stan- there were a number of areas of economic ac- dards and it is tremendous to see his factory tivity and emphasis to which we were commit- turning out hundreds of tents with the depart- ted to provide resources and new directions. ment's sign on them. He has gone to the trouble We undertook to put people and resources into 4914 4914[ASSEMBLY] those areas in order to do what we believed Mr Mensaros: The WAOPA Bill did not pro- needed to be done. Those areas include the vide that the Government should trade on its small business sector, technology, tourism, ex- Own account. port activity, and asset management. Mr Court: The member for Floreat made that point clear last night. The philosophy is It is not good enough to argue in the I 980s interesting. The WAOPA Bill did not go far that the good old Department of Industrial De- enough to your point of view because you velopment which goes back to just after the wanted it to be a socialist trading house. second World War or even before World War 11, is any longer competent to do any or all of Mr BRYCE: No. That is the whole point; it those things. The Member for Nedlands' was not the heavy hand of socialism. The mem- predecessor. his father, as the Premier of this ber should try to tell the Japanese that those State, made the first decision after the 1980 very competent trading houses which they election to nibble away at the powers and tra- operate- ditional responsibilities of the Department of Mr Court: There is a big difference between Industrial Development. One megadepartment yours and theirs. could no longer do everything that was needed Mr BRYCE: Okay, but we do not have time to be done and the Court Government made to indulge in this. the decision to establish the Department of Re- sources Development as well as the Depart- Asset management is the prime responsi- ment of Industrial Development. The member bility of the WADC. It filled an enormously for Nedlands may well have said in 1980 that important vacuum. We can argue until the this caused confusion because there was still a cows come home about how effective it has Mines Department and we now had a Depart- been. I believe it has done it extraordinarily ment of Resources Development and a Depart- well and it has stepped into a very important ment of Industrial Development. vacuum. There was no role for the Department of Industrial Development in the diamond We have moved a fairly significant distance project, the Aussie nugget concept, Or in the from 1945. The sophistication of the 1970s and redevelopment projects around the city. 1980s actually demands that modern Govern- The Department of Industrial Development ments address ver specifically the needs of the has spent a great deal of time with manufactur- new and emerging, as well as the old, sectors of ing industry and traditional sectors of com- the economy which have new needs. merce and industry in this State. I draw the member's attention to the areas that have This Government was elected in 1983 with drawn most of the resources in the last few the very specific undertaking to address those years. They include the shipbuilding industry, areas to which I have just referred. In the small the agricultural machinery industry, the mining business area we created the Small Business machinery industry, the foundry industry- Development Corporation which replaced the Mr Court: On the foundry industry, did your embryonic agency established by the previous department work on the State Engineering Government. There was virtually no govern- Works proposal? ment infrastructure in relation to technology in place in 1983. The Opposition supported our Mr BRYCE: Not directly. Technology Development- Act in 1983. The Mr Court: Your department did the report tourist department was fundamentally on the foundry industry. transformed by the establishment of the Tour- Mr BRYCE: The Department of Premier ism Commission. We have been dealing with a and Cabinet did that report. It involved our Bill in relation to export activity in the last few department only indirectly. The last area was days. I remember the member for Floreat the fashion industry which has now been introducing the WAOPA Bill into this place discovered in our State. It is a traditional in- and I remember supporting it and telling him it dustry, but it has an area of fantastic potential was a first-class initiative. Times have changed. and opportunity. Mr Mensaros: 1 read yesterday what you Those industries required modernisation and said. You did not support it completely. the State Government has worked to assist them to achieve that modernisation. That is Mr BRYCE: It was the nearest to the 100 per quite a separate agenda today from the sort of cent support the member could expect from the things that the WADC has worked on. The Opposition. WADC shows no interest and has no involve- fWednesday, 26 November 1986J191 4915 ment in that area of industry activity. The in- and the New South Wales site for the submar- dustries I have just mentioned are not pant of ine projects ruled themselves out because of the brief of the Technology Development Auth- industrial relations problems. ority which has been charged explicitly with the In the end, it has boiled down to a question job of helping to encourage the development of of the most suitable site, the most appropriate a new science-based industry. form of industrial infrastructure to back up the Item 1: Salaries, Wages and Allowances- actual assembly facility, various strategic ques- tions, and more importantly, a good industrial Mr COURT: Will the Minister explain why relations record. That is why I am very firmly there has been such a high turnover of staff in of the view that Western Australia, having the Department of Industrial Development in come from the position of a rank outsider is the last year? very much in contention. Many Western Mr BRYCE: The biggest single item of turn- Australians in industry, in this Chamber, and over was when about 20 staff members were in the trade union movement felt that we had transferred to the Departments of Regional De- no hope whatsoever and did not take the ques- velopment and The North West. After the tion seriously for the best pant of a year. We felt restructuring of the department and the adop- fairly lonely in urging a serious approach to the tion of a very new and specified corporate plan matter. Having come from nowhere, we are 12 or 18 months ago, which was the subject of a sitting in a lineball position with South statement to this House, various people with Australia at present. new skills in programmes being established Mr Court: So you think there is a fifty-fifty were needed. chance? Mr CASH: Some time ago members of the Mr BRYCE: The Federal Government Opposition visited HMAS Stirling to look at received the recommendation of both the magnificent submarine training tower companies on I I November. We were earlier which was going to mean a lot of construction led to believe that it would take the Federal dollars for Western Australia and continued government four or five months of deliber- revenue from staff that will man that oper- ations to make a decision, especially with the ation. Some months ago officers of the Depart- Christmas period in between. I would be Sur- ment of Industrial Development briefed us prised if the decision were made before April or about the project, but it seems to have taken a May of 1987. new turn. We have read in the national Press that the end contract is now likely to finish up Mr Cash: That might just put us in line for in the Eastern States and, with a possible Fed- that Federal election. eral election in the new year. I am interested to Mr BRYCE: On the contrary, I do not think hear from the Minister about what he believes that that will be necessary. Obviously political this State's position to be in relation to that factors are involved. From now on, a hell of a contract. lot of political log-rolling needs to go on and we Mr BRYCE: In response to the member for need the support of all Federal and State mem- Mt Lawley, I think it is lineball between South bers of Parliament from Western Australia. Australia and Western Australia. I frankly and Mr Court: Does that include the Federal very candidly say to all members of the House member for Kalgoorlie? that I think New South Wales is effectively Mr BRYCE: It would be my fdndest hope to dead in the water because of its industrial re- have the support of the Federal member for lations record. The Newcastle dockyard leaves Kalgoorlie on this project. We expect that the a great deal to be desired. This is not a ship- decision will be made by April or May next building industry exercise; it is an engineering year. project. The principal companies from both, Sweden and Germany that we have dealt with Mr COURT: I refer to item I and the refer- now for such a long period are not interested in ence to 25 temporary assistants. Could the going broke. Frankly. I think they have both Minister for Industr and Technology give an almost accepted-I am not putting words in explanation of that? their mouths;, I am expressing my opinion of Mr BRYCE: I do not think I have a specific their position, even though a recent article in explanatory note on that. I will have to drop a the media did not reflect my professional view note to the member for Nedlands to explain it. based on the discussions I have had with I do not know whether that number of tempor- them-that both the Geelong site in Victoria ary assistants constitutes an aberration or not. 4916 4916(ASSEMBLY]

Item 7: Purchase of Plant, Equipment, etc- Western Australian Science, Industr and Mr CASH: The vote last year for item 7 was Technology Council. It is about time that the $40 000: this year there is an estimate of Minister for Industry and Technology $ 153 000. Can the Minister for Industry and rationalised these operations. I can see no Technology give some indication as to what reason why the technology bureaucracy cannot plant or equipment is to be purchased to justify be put into one authority. Does the Minister that increase? for Industry and Technology agree? Why can the two not be put together? The Minister for Mr BRYCE: The answer is computing equip- Industry and Technology wanted to set up a ment, information technology. technology bureaucracy, but there is too much Item 8: Provision for Losses on Assisted In- bureaucracy and there should be a rationalis- dustries- ation of those areas. Mr COURT: Is the large increase in this vote We have heard a lot of talk from this due to the Manjimup cannery exercise? Government about what it will do in the tech- Mr Bryce: It is indeed. nology area, but some of its recent actions Mr COURT: That does not take up all the make a mockery of its talk. amount. I go back to the relatively small decision, Mr Bryce: It takes up $3.1 million of the dollar-wise, on the provision of computers to estimate. schools. The Government will become embar- Mr COURT: What is the balance of rassed by the fact that it will allow our edu- $800 000 for? cation system to slip behind those in other Mr BRYCE: An application for excess ex- .States in the field of computers. penditure of $556 000 was approved during Mr Peter Dowding: Do you believe in 198 5-86 to cover $376 000 for an additional controlling Budget expenditure? loss subsidy to the Manjimup Canning Co- Mr COURT: If the Minister had listened Operative Co Ltd and $156 000 for the pur- earlier he would have heard me give examples chase of Hunts Foods premises. The increase of areas in which the Government could make has resulted from the approval of $3.1 million cuts. I referred to DOCIT and these two to write off the losses of the Manjimup Can- bureaucracies and the funds saved could have ning Co-Operative. I will have to send the been used to provide computers to schools. It is member a note to explain what the extra a matter of getting the priorities right. The $800 000 is for. Government has chosen the wrong priorities. Item 9: Industrial Development Assistance- Mr Peter Dowding: That is what you say and Mr COURT: The considerable amount of that is what we said when in Opposition. 13.6 million is allotted to industrial develop- ment assistance. Can the Deputy Premier ex- Mr COURT: The Minister should not sound plain where that assistance has gone? so cynical and bored with the whole exercise. Is Mr BRYCE: I would be happy to send across he bored with the subject we are talking about? to the member for Nedlands a list of the items Mr Peter Dowding: No, it is the fact that you involved. The item involves amounts such as pick an area in which Government expenditure $200 000 for the initial study on the location of is limited- the marine support facility and $130 000 for financial support for Ross Payne and Co. Mr COURT: We are moving through the items relatively quickly in comparison with the Mr Court: You have a list of the items? time spent on the Estimates in other years. It Mr BRYCE: Yes. normally takes some time to go through the Mr Court: It would be appreciated if!I could Estimates and the Leader of the House is trying have a copy of the list. to go through a great deal tonight with the aimn Division 17 put and passed. of finishing the debate on Friday. Division 18: Western Australian Technology Mr Pearce: we are going for efficiency in the Development Authority, $2 669 000- public sector and we believe Parliament should set an example. Mr COURT: This division concerns the Western Australian Technology Development Mr COURT: The Leader of the House has Authority and Division 19 concerns the West- left little time to go through the Estimates and emn Australian Technology Directorate and the it is an important opportunity for members op- [Wednesday, 26 November 1986]191 4917 posite to find out where the money is being viding computers to schools. It is the starting spent. If the Government members find it point for our children to become involved in boring. I am sorry. this field. Mr Peter Dowding: I take a different point: I I am also concerned that recently TAFE has think you have got to show as an Opposition a been under attack by the Government. The role measure of responsibility in attacking the played by TAFE is very important and it en- Government for not making expenditure in sures that the practical skills we require in the particular areas. field of technical and further education are Mr COURT: I am showing that responsi- acquired. When the Government was having a bility to which the Minister referred; I am not go in this area, it was directly attacking the saying that the Government should spend more technology section of our community which is money to provide the computers but that the so important. funds could be taken from other areas to pro- There may have been good reasons for the vide the computers. The Government always decision to scrap the Solar Energy Research asks where the money will come from and I am Institute of Western Australia and they can be giving examples. debated further in other items. It is an indi- If Government members are getting tired at cation that the Government does not appear to 10.30 this evening during the debate on the have the commitment to research, develop- Budget Estimates they will be sound asleep by ment and the technology field which it 1.30 a.m., but members on this side will be professes to have. doing their job by properly scrutinising Mr BRYCE: The member for Nedlands Government expenditure. I have many mem- made two essential points. SRI has been bers sitting behind me who are prepared to put acquired by Access Technology which took considerable effort into this debate. over the company and its debts. SRI is a shell I ask the Deputy Premier to explain the sorts company and I understand that in six months' of investments, or perhaps to give me a list of time it will have an opportunity to exercise an the investments, made with the technology de- option to buy Access Technology, which is a velopment fund. When it was established it software computing company. started with $3 million and the allocation in the Budget is to top up the figure to $3 million. Mr Court: Who owns Access? I would be interested to know where those Mr BRYCE: I cannot tell the member for funds have gone. It is not investing money in a Nedlands offhand. I understand that SRI business which will earn profits but some of the wanted to keep the company trading because funds could have helped to meet the commit- some excellent software had been developed ment to provide computers in schools. Will the and the principal assets of the company were Deputy Premier be able to forward details of the intellectual properties associated with the the areas in which they have invested? software which had relevance and applicability Mr Bryce: I do not have a comprehensive list to the mining industry. That was its main but I will provide it tomorrow. source of cash flow. It had experienced serious problems and incurred massive debts. One of Mr COURT: During debate on miscel- the conditions of Access Technology taking laneous items I asked a question about the over the debts was that the company continue Systems Research Institute and an allocation of on a commercial basis and that the Govern- $625 000 which the Treasurer said was the ment write off the loan advanced by the pre- writing-off of a loan. lHe suggested that I query vious Government approximately eight or nine this item under this section and that the Depu- years ago when SRI was established. ty Premier would explain what has happened with the Systems Research Institute. Is it still Concerning computers for schools, let me tell operating, has it been split UP Or have different the member for Nedlands that I welcome his pants been sold off? It has been brought to my support, but I found myself in a minority. I am attention in the past week that various people bitterly disappointed about that. I reserve the have wanted to buy different sections of it. I right to fight again the next time the cake is cut would appreciate an explanation. up. It was an argument associated with the allo- I return to the points made earlier: The tech- cation of money for the education budget. nology bureaucracy should be rationalised and If members stop to think, it is an issue which funds should be taken from the bureaucracy obviously centrally concerns education and from DOCIT to help meet the cost of pro- funding. Nobody will find money from any- 4918 4918ASSEM BLYI body else's budget to fund something which is 1983? It was supported by the honourable obviously educational. The sum concerned is member and his colleagues-by everybody in between $4 million and $5 million. this House-in broad terms. It established Mr Laurance: You are not losing your touch, those three agencies. They are not massive are you? bureaucracies. Mr BRYCE: Just a bit of influence. I found Mr Court: Why can they not be put under myself in the minority. one umbrella? Mr Laurance: It was a critical weight of num- Mr BRYCE: They could be. It is not imposs- bers against you. ible. It is a plausible possibility. As a matter of fact, I am very happy to take on board the Mr BRYCE: The decision came down on the suggestion of the member for Nedlands. Other side of the majority, but they know we will be people have shown an interest in that area. coming out again between now and the early That part of next year when the first stages of Budget Act contains a sunset clause. In fact, planning negotiations come out. early in 1987 1 shall bring into effect the review process associated with it, because I am happy Mr Court: Your priorities were wrong. to say that by 1988 or 1989, what we created in Mr BRYCE: The member's analogy would be 1983 may need to be substantially changed. I hopeless. It was $4 million or $5 million out of would be the last person to shrink from a de- DOCIT. cision to do that if I thought it was a more Mr Court: I said DOCIT, and the Budget you flexible and more efficient way of employing have here is for the Western Australian Tech- our resources. nology Development Authority. Mr Court: Has Daryl Hull been replaced? Mr BRYCE: The member would destroy the Mr BRYCE: There is a person acting in that work of the Western Australian Technology job. Development Authority and DOCIT. Mr Court: Do you not think the work of Mr Court: What about the Technology De- those positions may overlap? velopment Fund? Do you think that could have Mr BRYCE: Not really. They complement made a contribution? each other substantially. Simon Fraser and the Mr BRYCE: Small companies go to the Technology Development Authority are work- Technology Development Authority and seek ing on commercial deals with the companies to access. Myriad applications are made for sup- introduce them to financial dealers. They are port and assistance. Everybody there has plans not dealing with multinationals and large cor- and they apply for funding. It is one of the prin- porations; more often than not they are dealing cipal funding programmes. There are two or with myriad small companies. Twenty-seven three classic examples of companies in Western companies are established out there. The devel- Australia which have been funded by that opment authority undertakes commercial de- Technology Development Fund. Vital pieces of velopment testing. testing equipment have been made available Item 1: Amount required for Services for the which have enabled those companies to grow, year- to employ more people, and that development Mr COURT: Can the Minister give me the has been made possible. The details of that I list of current tenants for Technology Park? can give to the member tomorrow. When I say that, can he give us a schedule of A number of companies are on the brink of who has shifted in, who has taken up the differ- achieving viability. They have been assisted at ent units, and the like? the crucial take-off stage by loans from the I was at the annual meeting of the product Technology Development Fund. It would be a innovation centre on Friday. I took the oppor- disaster to take that money out of areas of that tunity to drive around and look at some of the sort, bearing in mind that we are looking at a new facilities. 12 months' delay as far as the school's comput- When the Minister was first involved he ing programmes are concerned. I was bitterly mentioned that the hope was to get the park disappointed. self-supporting quickly. How is the project Mr Court: Can you not put the two together? looking from that point of view? Mr BRYCE: Does the member for Nedlands Mr BRYCE: I will supply the member with a remember supporting the Technology Develop- list of those clients. At this stage 1 think there ment Act which I brought to this House in are 27 companies; individual private [Wednesday, 26 November 19861 491991 companies, facilitators, incubators, and boot, who ended up winning the competition. enterprise units. I will also provide him with an He does a fabulous job at UWA in the field of indication of what it costs to enter those units electronic engineering. He and others are also and how that concept is shaping up. involved in commercialising some of the very The incubator units will not be self-support- fine products which could truly be described a ing for some time. They are not designed to be. high-tech. The enterprise units are let at market rates and This year the Western Australian Enterprise they were self-sustaining from the outset. It is Workshop competition was won by a group one expected that only viable companies which can member of which I knew, and the product handle the rigours; of the marketplace will go they had to work on was the carcase-splitting into those units. The incubator part of the park machine. I know that team of people worked is not intended to be self-sustaining for quite extremely hard over the year to develop the some time. business plan for that product, which was Mr Court: How long can one stay in one of invented in the Department of Agriculture. those units? They spent a lot of time getting it to a stage Mr BRYCE: A couple of years is a general where, they could enter the judging, and they estimate. After a couple of years, the decision is won the State award. They then went on to win left to the management of the Technology De- the Auistralian award in the recently-held finals. velopment Authority, in association with the I take this opportunity to congratulate this Government. local team. The workshops are a great concept. Mr Court: Is the aim to get them out quickly? The participants in many cases are very highly Mr BRYCE: The aim is to get them to de- respected professionals in their own fields who velop their wings and not live on support for get together as a team, in many cases with too long. people whom they have never met before. They Mr Court: When we went to the Enterpri se do not know what project they will be working Centre in Osborne Park we found the system on, and must develop the skills to get that was that the rents started jumping dramatically product to a commercial stage. That is the type spirit we need in this after a certain time to encourage the tenants to of entrepreneurial get out of the place. country. Now that that team has won *the award, its members have the opportunity as Mr BRYCE: We are interested in other incu- part of their prize to go overseas to further bator companies moving in. I think already study that sort of concept. four or five have moved into the larger units. Division 18 put and passed. This Division embraces the Western Australian Technology Directorate, and I want Division 19: Technology Development, to raise the matter of the sacking of the Direc- $1134000- tor, Dr Daryl Hull. It was an unusual sort of Mr COURT: I want to mention the sacking-he was sacked because he had bought enterprise workshops, with which I have been some tickets for overseas air travel from a involved for some years by going to their travel agency owned by his wife. presentations and seeing the work they have done. I recall going to one of the presentations Mr Bryce: And himself. at Churchlands. A group there was given a proj.- Mr COURT: Was it? I thought it was owned ect for which they had to develop a business just by his wife. In any event, it was not as plan and get it to the marketing stage. The though the tickets were not bought at a com- project was a double-sided woollen ugg boot. petitive price, nor that the taxpayers were out That group won that year, and I was qui te of pocket. Dr Hull was very highly regarded in impressed with the way in which those people the technology field and in industry. IHe was were given a product and worked it up to a involved with a very large corporation before commercial stage. he took on the job of director with the Tech- One of the people involved in the winning nology Directorate. He was dismissed, but a team, who was trying to build up his expertise settlement was reached. There seemed to be a in the business field, was Yani Attikousel, bit of a back-down by the Government in this whom the Minister for Industry and Tech- matter. The State Government made an nology might know from the University of undisclosed, out of court settlement with the Western Australia. Here was a highly qualified former Western Australian Technology scientist trying to develop a double-sided ugg Directorate head, Dr Daryl Hull. 4920 4920[ASSEMBSLY]

I understand that position has not been was a very modest amount of money and, as filled. Has it been advertised? the member has indicated, it was an out of Mr Bryce: Not yet. court settlement. Mr COURT: Perhaps the Minister for Indus- Mr Court: Leaving aside that particular case, try and Technology could tell us by way of do you believe all Government departments interjection when the Government intends to should have to purchase their travel tickets do that. through the central body? If they can buy them cheaper elsewhere, why shouldn't they be al- Mr Bryce: In the not too distant future. lowed to do so? Mr COURT: Perhaps the Minister can give Mr BRYCE: That issue became a complete us a little more information as to the out of furphy in that case. That was not the central court settlement that took place. The important issue at all. That aspect of the issue was actu- thing is that Dr Hull did have his name cleared, ally presented in a way which confused a great because he obviously has a very long career many people. The issue central to the decision ahead of him-he is a relatively young man. I was the question of whether a senior public would like to hear a few more details on that servant in that position should have done what point. was done, given that the public servant had a I also ask how the Minister for Industry and pecuniary interest in a company which ben- Technology believes Sitco is functioning, and efited from the decision made. It is not a ques- whether it is providing the sort of advice that it tion of someone holding a gun at somebody's was originally set up to provide to the Minister, head about a policy directive that all tickets or whether he believes there should be some should be bought through Holiday WA. changes to its formation and the way in which Mr Court: With all due respect, last night I it operates. raised a set of circumstances wherein the sec- Mr BRYCE: As to the second of the mem- ond-in-charge on the Public Service Board did ber's questions, I am highly delighted with the a far worse thing, I believe, than what Dr Hull work of SITCO and the quality of the reports has been accused of, yet Dr Hull lost his job. sent to me. Half of those reports have been Mr BRYCE: I did not hear that allegation. published, while the other half are reports of a Division 19 put and passed. confidential nature to the Minister based on my request for their feedback. I can say to the Division 20: Electoral, $1 633 000- member for Nedlands in the most unequivocal Mr MENSAROS: I want to mention briefly fashion that I am delighted with Sitco. We are the situation we are in with respect to the elec- currently defining the specific issues which we toral Bill which the Government introduced, will ask SITCO to examine in 1987. which passed through this House and which is In respect of the first issue raised by the now in the other place. member for Nedlands, there is very little upon As a result of very objective debate during which I can elaborate. I have responded to the second reading and Committee stage the questions in this House, and have informed the record clearly shows that the Government, the House of the decision and the reasons for the Liberal Party and indeed the National Party sacking of Dr Hull. The Member for Nedlands are ready to agree on a considerable number of is quite right, it was a highly unusual situation; items. We did not agree on a number of items but it was one that was met with the response but we accepted, subsequent to a number of based on advice I received from the Public Ser- very brief talks, that we might well come to vice Board Commissioner, and on the details agreement. In a way it is a pity that we had an presented to me. It is the sort of thing that does orderly debate because the media has lost not happen every day of the week, I concur. It interest in the subject and even now no re- is a great pity it did happen, but on the basis of porter is in the Press gallery. Had we shouted at the propriety involved the correct decision was each other and created an uproar the situation made, and had to be made, on the basis of that would probably have been different in that re- advice. spect. I indicated to the then Deputy Leader of the I understand that the Government has sus- Opposition, who is now the Leader of the Op- pended the progress of the Bill in the Legislat- position, that the terms of the settlement were ive Council. We are very seriously interested in indeed very modest, and much less than the six reaching a conclusion between the three par- months' salary discussed in the newspapers. It ties. I have checked with the leader of the [Wednesday, 26 November 1986] 424921

National Party and I am able to say that people might want to admit. if someone were neither of us is prepared to reach a separate to ask where tegal matters should appear on a agreement with the Government. We want a Government's list of priorities, I would say it tripartite agreement. Certain provisions of the should be at the top of the list. That conclusion Bill do not make it possible for us to reach an comes from our philosophy that the smaller agreement on them without first having government is the better government it is. reached an agreement on other provisions. An example is the Electoral Commission it- If we accept that principle, the question is self. Unless we can agree on the terms of refer- what are the unavoidable functions which a ence under which the commission will operate Government must perform. The answer is that we cannot claim to have reached an agreement they are those functions which the people on it. The Government has indicated only the themselves or a conglomeration of people in numbers of regions and the numbers of mem- private enterprise cannot do. bers viz-a-viz Legislative Council regions and it Seemingly the most important functions of a has specified the one-vote-one-value rule. We Government-theoretically at least and I think want to specify the number not only of upper practically as well these days-can be under- House members but also of lower House mem- taken by other than Governments. Education bers within the regions. We also want to have can be provided without Governments and guidelines for how we will structure the bound- indeed about 150 years ago government had no aries. Ours was a more flexible arrangement in business in education, and the same applies to relation to numbers but gave only the chance health and various other matters. for predictions about weighting. If we have an opportunity between the close But there is no way that individuals or pri- of this session and the beginning of the next vate enterprise can secure law and order and a session to seriously study the figures in the re- citizen's access to justice, all of which are absol- gional situation, I am reasonably convinced we utely necessary for people to live peaceful com- could reach an agreement. We might also be munity lives. able to agree on the questions of staggered elec- tions and optional preferential voting. With From that point of view the portfolio of the further negotiations we might start the new Attorney General is often downgraded to a sec- year with mutual confidence, so far as political ondary degree in the public mind. In this day opponents can have such confidence. and age, despite the fact that we have tremen- dous access to health and education services Mr BRYCE: I am delighted to hear the mem- provided by the Government there is little ac- ber for Floreat indicate that he believes signifi- cess to litigation. If one commits an offence or cant headway will be made on that basis. For a crime the machinery of Government goes the information of members I confirm that the into motion and everybody involved has to Bill will not be proceeded with any further in submit to it. If it is a disagreement between the Legislative Council this session on the citizens and a private matter which can understanding that between the conclusion of ultimately be reso ' ved only by litigation there is this session and the beginning of the next no access. That is the situation in an age when session discussions will take place between rep- we pride ourselves-and the Government side resentatives of the Government and the Oppo- prides itself even more-that social provisions sition parties in the fond hope that at the very are made for people irrespective of their means beginning of the next session we will have and they can have everything modern society arrived at an agreement and the electoral offers. I do not think they get that in terms of reform Bill will pass through the Legislative justice. Council. Division 20 put and passed. -I mentiobned a short time ago that at the Divisions 21 and 22 postponed, on motion by Christmas function of the Law Society a few Mr Peter Dowding (Minister for Industrial Re- dIays ago, to which I had the honour to be lations). invited, two justices separately, without hear- ing what the other said to me, mentioned that Division 23: Crown Law, $26 488 000- in civil cases the litigants generally were large Mr MENSAROS: As the Opposition spokes- companies or people represented by legal aid. man on legal matters I want to indicate that the There was very little in between. That reaffirms function of the Government in legal matters is my thought that this middle sector of the com- much more important in our view than many munity, which perhaps has no needs from the 4922 4922[ASSEMBLY] point of view of sustaining itself and can even Mr Peter Dowding: Not as slowly as under have certain luxuries, cannot afford to get jus- Mr Medcalf. tice. Mr MENSAROS: Those bodies were estab- I am not making anyone responsible; I am lished under him and brought down their simply reminding the House that this most im- recommendations. He did not have a lot of portant function of Government is neglected time to implement them. from the point of view of accessibility. I do not Mr Peter Dowding: He was sitting on the have a ready-made answer. I suppose the Law Reform Commission reports. answer is that litigation should be cheaper, but the solutions to that might clash with one's Mr MENSAROS: Four or five years have ideas. I would not like to see subsidised legal passed since the Murray and Clarkson reports services, but there might be other ways in were handed down. which the civil jurisdiction could be made sim- Division 23 put and passed. pler. starting with the drafting of Statutes. Division 24: Corporate Affairs, $5 874 000- In the meantime a lot of thought should be put and passed. given to this and policy should be prepared-as Division 25: Probation and Parole Service, we would like to prepare our policy-to make $4336000- it more possible for people to engage in liti- Mr MENSAROS: The Opposition's policy gation. The existing ways and means can be has been indicated by the introduction of a strengthened, such as legal aid, and the eligi- private member's Bill. Unfortunately that Bill bility can be widened, although it is a is at the bottom of the Notice Paper. I would subsidised service which I do not like in have been happy if the Government had principle. Nevertheless the community's access indicated its stance towards our proposition. It to civil justice can be widened. was a very mild proposition and was not revol- I have often raised the question of keeping utionary at all. It simply expresses what I be- the Statutes up to date. We are supposed to lieve to be public opinion, which is that when deal with them every day; not every member deciding about parole in particular, and we in- does, but some of us have to. In this age of cluded the question of bail, the respective word processors and various electronic equip- authorities or person making the decision ment I cannot understand why the highest pri- should take into account as one of the most ority is not given to bringing and keeping important criteria the interest of the com- virtually every Statute up to date. It would only munity and of the victim, if there is a victim in be a matter of organising word processing in- connection with the crime. stead of printing and photocopying so that as It is a fairly simple proposition for the soon as a Bill became an Act and was Government to say yes or no or the Govern- promulgated it would be automatically typed ment to say, "We will implement it in a differ- into the existing Statute and we could give ac- ent way" and then perhaps include it in some- cess to it without spending a lot of tinie on thing else. We are being kept in suspense. I manual tasks such as trying to glue in the think it is not unfair to request that the amendments. Government show its colours. I do not think it An even better method would be to have not is fair for the Government to reject something only the Statute with its prevailing provisions, for the only reason that it was introduced by but also an indication as to when and how they the Opposition. were amended. That is often an important indi- Mr CASH: I support the comments of the cation of the development of the law. Part of member for Floreat. There is no logic in this process would be to draft the Statutes in rejecting a Bill simply because it was plain English instead of the customary heavy introduced by a member of the Opposition. legal jargon. That seems to be the case with this Govern- My final point relates to implementation of ment. the reforms which were begun a long time ago The people of Western Australia are con- during our Government. They were highlighted cerned that prisoners are released on parole in several reports such as the Murray report and then commit serious offences. Recently a and the Clarkson report. We saw some of the convicted rapist walked out of the West Perth recommendations in the legislative programme release centre and was free for a number of this year. and a few last year, but they are still days before he decided to give himself up to the going slowly. police. I believe that the community is not pre- [Wednesday, 26 November 19861 492392 pared to accept a Government that will not do When is the Government likely to ensure the anything about reviewing the probation and safety of the people of WA by preventing pris- parole system. oners from either escaping from prison or being released on parole too early? 1983 election campaign the Govern- In the Mr PETER DOWDING: So that no-one gets ment said that it intended to examine the par- ole system in WA. Yet, the Attorney General, any misapprehensions about what the member in reporting in the Law Society magazine Briefs for Mt Lawley read out, I advise the Chamber made the statement that one of his greatest that he did not read out the conclusions of the Parker report. That is the sort of thing that, disappointments for the three years from 1983 to 1986 was the regrettably, we have become used to from the fact that he had been unable to member address the important area of probation and for Mt Lawley. He read out three points relating to the incidence of offences parole. He said that he intended to address the while prisoners are on parole, the marked tend- matter as soon as the Government was returned. It Was returned in February 1986 and ency for prisoners to be released early, and the still no positive steps have been taken by the sense by the community that it is not being Government. adequately protected. The interpretation of that by anyone listening to the debate or by the hundreds of thousands of people who will A report dated February 1979 entitled diligently read Hansard tomorrow will be that "Parole, Prison Accommodation, and Leave those were the conclusions of the Parker report. from Prison in WA" is often referred to as the They were not. The member for Mt Lawley did Parker report. The chairman of the commit tee not present it fairly. That was a summary by was Mr K. F. Parker, a Crown Counsel. On Kevin Parker of some common public views on page 4 of that report he said that a review of the subject. That is a long way from the what had been said in the past two years and recommendations of the Parker report. In fact, written in that time suggests that the following the Parker report strongly recommended the matters underlie the apparent public disquiet continuation of the probation and parole ser- about the operation of the parole system in this vice. State. He then listed three points: Firstly, the incidence of offences committed by those on The report strongly recommended that parole, particularly serious offences; secondly, probation and parole was an integral pan of the the marked tendency for prisoners to be re- system. I do not want to get sidetracked into a leased early in their sentences which suggests to debate about the 1979 report which, inciden- the public that they are not being sufficiently tally, the previous Government had from punished; and, thirdly, a sense that the com- February 1979 to February 1983 to implement, munity is not being adequately protected be- if it felt it appropriate. cause early release on parole is seriously weakening the effect of punishment on others; There is an illogicality about the thought and, exposing the community to further crimi- that, if a person is released after eight years and nal activities by those released. then he committed an offence having been imprisoned for an offence which carried a sen- tence of Very little was done up until 1983 although 10 years, he would be more likely to there was an intention to do something. The commit the same offence than after 10 years disappointing thing is that the Government imprisonment. Undoubtedly, it is a sensitive never implemented any part of the area and the member for Mt Lawley brings to bear on it a superficiality which is unchallenged recommendations of the Parker report as it by members opposite. That superficiality promised in its pre-election policy statement. leads us down a dangerous path of simply winding up people's fears and expectations because of a A further interesting statistic in the report is particular incident. that Mr Parker noted that, in the statistics he had been able to gather of the performance of No Minister has a reputation as unsullied as those released on parole in Western Australia, that of the Attorney General and he is deter- less than 65 per cent of released prisoners suc- mined to ensure that issues are properly cessfully complete parole. He noted that that addressed. I feel confident that in this Govern- figure increased to nearly 75 per cent if those ment's term in office he will be addressing the who complete reparole are added. Those are issue of probation and parole. I feel confident frightening statistics. also that he will continue to address the issue 4924 4924[ASSEMBLY] during this Government's next term in office Floreat as being on a contract basis is a matter which will be continuous with this term after for the commission. However, as the author of the next election. a very important work on this subject in my Division 25 put and passed. 1974 Churchill Fellowship report, there is un- doubted evidence that the cost of contract ser- Divisions 26 to 28: Public Trust Office, vices is such that it, as a sole arrangement, is 14 041 000; Registrar General's Office, not justified and that it is much better that $1 348 000; Law Reform Commission, there be an appropriate mix. I am not aware of $623 000-put and passed. disquiet among the legal profession. Division 29: Legal Aid Commission, The profession gets a good deal out of the 52 231 000- commission and it has no reason to complain Mr MENSAROS: I commend the Director of about the level of employed solicitors' work the Legal Aid Commission for the work he has done within the commission. done. He has a difficult job to do and has fairly The commission is very responsive to the wide discretion, which may be even a little too attitudes of the private profession. Private wide, but it makes it difficult for him to decide practitioners make up the bulk of the com- who is eligible to receive legal aid. Conse- mission. There cannot be any sustained view quently. a number of coiiplaints are made to that the commission is proceeding down the the Opposition about the commission and the path which is politically or economically incor- director politely endeavours to answer these rect. queries. Out of a total budget, the private- prac- Legal aid is important because it gives access titioners' fees amount to approximately $8.5 to justice to the general public. From that point million. The total salaries and establishment of of view it should be given a higher priority the commission, including all the until some other device can be brought into administration of the system and the salaried being which would make the whole system of officers, is roughly $3.5 million. There is no justice in civil cases more accessible to the pub- justification for the view that there is an imbal- lic. ance in favour of employed practitioners. Unfortunately, I have some queries about the Mr Mensaros: There is a trend towards it. total expenditure on this item. The expenditure Mr PETER DOWDING: My understanding is not enough to ensure that litigation is more is that the commission has, from the outset, accessible. had a significant element of practitioners Comments have been made by the legal pro- within its ranks to do the work. I do not know fession that the commission tends to go that there is any suggestion of a trend to the towards the more bureaucratic solution of contrary. employing more lawyers instead of contracting Division 29 put and passed. practitioners to do the work. I am not sure Division 30: Office of Government Accoimou- whether that is the case, but I will make inquir- dation, $27 779 000-put and passed. ies when time permits. Postponed Divisions 21 and 22 now taken. The total number of officers employed by the commission is 109 and that figure includes a Division 21: Building Management Authority, large number of other than professional people. $54 874000- I ask the Minister to relay my query to the Item 9: America's Cup Office- Attorney General. Is it within the Govern- Mr CASH: The America's Cup Office was ment's policy to encourage the commission to previously included under the Office of Racing employ more professional officers on a contract and Gaming. Last year the vote was $99 000, basis? This would mean that private prac- but actual expenditure was $409 23 1. This year titioners will be contracted to, or more cor- it is proposed to allocate $1 030 000 to this rectly given a brief by. the commission. office. Can the Minister who is handling the Mr PETER DOWDING: I will draw the Hill give some indication as to why the 1985-86 comments of the member for Floreat to the figure blew out so dramatically? Secondly, can attention of the Attorney General. My under- he indicate why the 1986-87 figure is nearly standing is that the administration of the Legal twice that of the previous year? Aid Commission is left to the commission. The Mr PEARCE: The reason for the increase is mix it creates of private and employed prac- basically that the America's Cup is being held titioners' services described by the member for during the financial year. I hate to be flippant [Wednesday, 26 November 1986]192 4925 about it, but that is fundamentally it. The been assessed. I have received a couple of com- position of the Minister with special responsi- plaints in connection with this procedure. The bility for the America's Cup was created two or procedure is undoubtedly legal and is based on three years ago when the America's Cup was the Statute. Even if the property was sold as first won and we saw a need to coordinate cer- early in the financial year as 5 July, the vendor tain activities. Initially, the position was con- would have to pay land tax for the full year, the sidered an adjunct to that Minister's work and assessment of which may come perhaps only in a very small substructure was set up -to assist November or December. him with it. During the last financial year the office was established on a more substantial I do not understand why an adjustment can- basis by a series of Cabinet decisions. not he made, thus enabling the vendor to pay the land tax for that part of the year prior to his Mr Cash: Are they staff costs? sale of the property and the purchaser to pay Mr PEARCE: Basically they are staff costs, the tax for the time following his purchase of office running costs, and costs involved with the property. Such provision should be made in the acquisition of premises and equipment for the Statute, as it is with respect to other charges those premises. The costs also include those for or rates. The Taxation Department could well a smallish number of staff and some contracts use the comfortable argument that it knows for consultancies. In addition, studies about who the proprietor is at the end of the financial visitor numbers and the like were undertaken year and that it would therefore be easier to and had to be paid for. prosecute in the event of non-payment. How- This year there is a great emphasis on the ever, that is a fairly cheap excuse. After all, America's Cup. Some of the costs are entertain- departments are not there for their own ment costs because the Government has to comfort, but to assist the public. undertake certain responsibilities in terms of looking after visiting dignitaries and the like. It is very difficult to convince the public that Those costs are built into the substantial in- the procedure is legal. They often accuse the crease. There is no actual increase in staff in settlement agent or the real estate agent who the office for the current financial year. Most of was involved-occasionally even the pur- the costs responsible for the increase are one- chaser-of getting away with something. The off costs directly associated with the holding of Minister for Budget Management should con- the America's Cup. If the member would like a sider making provision for the adjustment in more complete breakdown of the figure, 1 will the legislation. be happy to get the M inister to send one. Division 32 put and passed. Division 21 put and passed. Division 33: Valuer General's Office, Division 22: Services, $29 040 000-put and $6 465 000-put and passed. passed. Division 32: Taxation, $7 542 000- Division 34: Prisons, $59 703 000- Mr MENSAROIS: Recently we passed two Mr CASH: It is interesting that every time Bills to amend the Land Tax Act and the Land the Minister for Industrial Relations, who rep- Tax Assessment Act respectively and I said resents the Minister for Prisons, is unable to most of what I wanted to say during debate on answer a question which is put to him, he tends that amending legislation. However, I would to pour scorn on the propositions that are ad- like to place on record one item for the possible vanced and talks about sheer superficiality. If consideration of the Minister for Budget Man- one analysed what the Ministerjust said when I agement. and that is the provision in the land was speaking about parole and probation, one tax assessment legislation which clearly says would see that he took no notice whatsoever of that the payment of the yearly assessed land tax the comments that I- raised from the Parker is the responsibility of the owner of the land report of 1979. He claimed that I had used the who happens to be the proprietor on 30 June of word "recommendations" when referring to the subject year. certain propositions that Mr Parker had used If a property is transferred during the term of to introduce his report. In that, he was quite the financial year, no adjustment is made to the wrong. I did not use the word land tax payable, as it is with rates generally, "recommendations". The point is that the whether they be local government or water Minister was not listening at the time, got des- rates. The vendor is responsible for the whole perate, needed a copy of the report, and had to of the land tax even though it may not yet have try to salvage his position. 4926 4926[ASSEMBLY)

The situation is that prior to 1983 the placed her life in danger. She referred to the Government made certain election promises problems which still occur because of the that it would deal with the problem of parole heinous crime which occurred less than two which had been highlighted some years before years ago. in the Parker report. Other reports also dealt A couple of weeks later we read in the paper with that area. The clear facts are that it has not that a convicted rapist had broken out of been done and the Attorney General stated in prison and was on the streets. Yet we get the an article he wrote for one of the legal journals sort of reply from the Minister which indicates in Perth prior to the 1986 election that he was that he does not recognise how Strongly the very disappointed that the Government had community feels about having a Prison system not managed to get onto that particular area. which is able to contain prisoners in a secure Perhaps if the Minister had been listening, he way. The community at large is entitled to have would have heard it as it was said rather than a secure prison system operated by the Govern- as he invented it some minutes later. ment, of any colour, and the people should not Most members in this Chamber recognise the be fearful for life or property as a result of very good job done by prison officers in West- prisoners breaking out of prison and commit- ern Australia under pretty difficult circum- ting further crimes. stances. it is easy to highlight the problems of I refer to another article which appeared in prisoners escaping but, whether we like it or this morning's newspaper; it notes that the not, they will escape from time to time. The Government has decided not to proceed with number of prisoners who escape in any one an amendment to section 87 of the Prisons Act. year will determine whether or not the prison Had the legislation been passed, it was system is working as it should. intended that the Government, through the Di- Another factor affecting prison escapes is the rector of Prisons, should have the power to staffing arrangement presently in force at vari- release certain classes of prisoners without no- ous prisons in Western Australia. I refer to an tifying the Parliament. The Opposition made it article which appeared in The West Australian obvious some weeks ago that it intended to on 23 August 1986 under the headline oppose the legislation and it set out the reasons "Concern over gaol security" in which the at the time. I am pleased that the Government Prison Officers Union warned of continuing has obviously taken note of the matters raised serious security problems unless the staffing by the Opposition; that it has recognised there policy at the various gaols in Western Australia are other ways of handling some of the prob- was reviewed. It was argued that a budgetary lems which occur when releasing some classes constraint caused the staffing situation to be as of prisoners; and one assumes that the Govern- tight as it was. I suggest to the Minister and the ment may introduce other legislation to over- Government that, irrespective of the budgetary come those problems which I have discussed situation, the community as a whole will not with both the Minister for Prisons and officers accept prisoners escaping from the prison of the Prisons Department. system and especially their committing serious The saga of the Proposed prison at Casuarina crimes as soon as they manage to get out of the continues. Earlier this year the Minister system. announced that the Government intended to With regard to the victims of those crimes, I build a maximum security prison at Casuarina refer to an article which appeared in the at an estimated cost of $54 million. In view of Sunda ' Timnes on 7 September, a couple of the fairly hefty expenditure, the Opposition weeks after the Prison Officers Union had placed on notice a number of questions to commented on the serious staffing problems ascertain from the Government the reasons within the prison system. The article was writ- that it believed were pertinent to making that ten by the victim of a crime which occurred decision. Some months later, some notices of some time ago. The article was under the head- motion later, and following replies from the ing, "Victim of horror rape fears revenge".' The Minister representing the Minister for Prisons article stated that a multiple rape victim who in this place, the people of the Kwinana-Casua- was disfigured for life during an eight-hour tor- rina area and the Opposition are no further ture session had blasted the callousness of the advanced in receiving answers to the various Prisons Department. It was said that she be- questions raised. lieved a decision to transfer a psychotic rapist At the time the Minister advised that the from Fremantle to a minimum security prison land, which forms part of the System 6 report in Bunbury after less than two years may have and is a local flora and fauna reserve at the [Wednesday. 26 November 1986J192 4927 moment, comprised an area of 180 hectares. It that the proposed maximum security prison is was suggested that only 30 hectares of that site relocated at its proper site at Canning Vale in would be needed for the prison. However, in- the metropolitan prison complex. vestigations by the Opposition have indicated I make that point because the people of that not only will 30 hectares be primarily used Kwinana,' for a long time members of what has for the prison building but also a further 30 been a Labor stronghold in political terms, hectares of buffer will be required around the have decided they have had enough. They be- proposed prison. lieve that this Labor Government has taken From that area of 180 hectares we now find them for granted for too long and they are now that instead of the original 30 hectares, at least reacting. 60 hectares will be fenced off. From investi- One of the things which has culminated in gations by residents of the Casuarina area it this reaction is the Government's standover seems that the Government's intention is to tactics in trying to force the maximum security restrict access to the balance of that reserve for prison at Casuarina reserve on them. The security reasons. I understand that some of the people of that area are not prepared to accept security equipment to be installed is so sensi- it, and they are likely to fight it all the way. tive that it will not accommodate people wan- Some time ago you will recall, Mr Chairman, dering through what is now a bushland setting. that this Government, against the advice of certain Government departments, decided to Another interesting fact which emerged as a push a road through near Murdoch University. result of conservationists looking at the site and In fact it was the Farrington Road exercise pondering on why the Government wants to which caused this Government a certain change it from a Crown reserve into a pri son amount of distress. At that time we saw how site, is that some of the large fauna presently the environmentalists decided that they were inhabiting the site will have to be shifted. Un- not prepared to cop the way this Government less the property is cleared and adequately was going, and they lay down in front of the fenced it is feared that the fauna will trigger off bulldozers as they moved forward. some of the security equipment and devices necessary to protect the area. Mr Grill: You have your facts mixed up. That was the Cockburn Shire Council. The other day I received a letter, and it is one Mr CASH: It was near Murdoch University. of many 1 have received from conservation The Minister for Local Government, and the groups throughout Western Australia, con- Minister for Environment, were all behind demning the Government for its stand and pushing that road through, and they kept using this reserve for a maximum security putting pressure on the local authority to push prison. As usual. I wrote back to that group and that road through. said the Opposition was prepared to support Mr Grill: You are a donkey. It was the the EPA's recommendation in the System 6 Cockburn Shire Council. report that the Casuarina Reserve No. 31874 should not be used for the purpose of ereting a Mr CASH: Of course it was the Cockburn maximum security prison. I made the point in Shire Council which did the work on the road, my letter that the Opposition believes the but it was this Government which insisted that existing site of the metropolitan prison the road go through. complex at Canning Vale is sufficient to house Mr Grill: Wrong again. the maximum security prison, and the Oppo- Mr CASH: That is why the environ- sition is not prepared to accept the Govern- mentalists went out and lay down in front of ment's contention that to build the new maxi - the bulldozers. Of all people to want to make mum security prison at Canning Vale would be corrections .here, we have the Minister for a case of putting, as the Minister said some Agriculture, who could not even sell the Mid- time ago in this place, all our eggs in one bas- land abattoir properly after three separate goes. ket. We do not believe that is the situation at He still did not get it right. all. I make the point that when the Government At a recent public meeting in Kwinana the decides to move in on the Casuarina reserve Opposition made the point that if the proposed with its heavy earthmoving machinery, I expect maximum security prison has not commenced we will have the same situation as we had in construction when we return to Government in Farrington Road when the local council put late 1988 or early 1989, the Opposition will see that road through in the City of Cockbun near 4928 4928[ASSEMBLY]

the Murdoch University. We will have the progress it will not do so with the drivel this same situation at Casuarina, where the local Minister is putting forward tonight. It has no people will end up taking action against the relevance to the matter under discussion. Government. The CHAIRMAN: I do not really regard the After all, this Government rode in partly on comments of the member for Vasse as a point the environmental ticket. Where are the of order. I was about to call the Chamber to environmentalists today? They have been order because I wondered when you referred to pushed into a corner by this Government the Minister talking drivel whether you heard which could not care less. the seven members from your side of the House making the most unruly interjections we Mr Lightfoot: With socialists' jack boots! have heard in the last two hours. Mr CASH: With socialists' jack boots, as the member for Murchison-Eyre says. He is quite Comm~ittee Resumed right. The Casuarina prison story is not over. Mr PETER DOWDING: I was opening my People of that area will react as the Govern- remarks about the political opportunism of the ment makes its plans to establish the prison in member for Mt Lawley, because he really that area, and this Government will have to raised three issues. He raised several side live with the fact that it was not prepared to tell issues, but many were wrong. I will not go the people of that area and the people of this through them. State the real reasons why it wants to locate this He talked about the security in Western new prison I15 odd kilometres south of the Australian prisons, and he made reference existing metropolitan prison complex in Can- firstly to somebody who committed a very ning Vale. serious offence being transferred out of a maxi- Mr PETER DOWDING: The member for mum security prison to a lower level security Mt Lawley is an extraordinary political oppor- prison in Bunbury. This has nothing to do with tunist who is so shallow in the opportunities the level of staff in prisons and any consequen- that he seeks to take that he is actually- tial security. It has to do with the prison system making assessments-assessments which they Mr Laurance: You were almost on track made when the Opposition was in Govern- there, but now you have spoilt it. ment, and assessments they will continue to Mr PETER DOWDING: I thought the mem- make no matter who is in Government. ber might mature. Where has he been all That is the first thing. What the member for night-doing a bit of target practice? I am Mt Lawley has not experienced is a term in reminded of the Daily News cartoon where he Government, and he is a tong way from experi- was throwing knives frm a distance, trying to encing it. But when he is approaching his pen- hit the bullseye. sionable age he might get a crack at it, and he Mr Laurance: I have not had to change will then understand that these sorts of de- Houses. cisions are not made at a political level. That is why I say he is such a political opportunist. Several members interjected. That sort of issue is determined on the best Mr PETER DOWDING: That would be advice available, by the people in whom we right. I can tell the member one thing. since he place our trust by giving them the responsi- has asked me. We have an extraordinarily good bility of handling these issues from within the leader. I do not think one member in the parlia- prison system. They are people of whom I have mentary Labor Party would have any doubt in had some experience and in whom the Govern- saying that he has our utmost loyalty to the ment and I have very considerable confi- next election, which is markedly different from dence-and that extends down to prison what we had from the Deputy Leader of the officers. Opposition. The second issue raised by the member for Several members interjected. Mt Lawley was the matter of the escape of a prisoner who walked out of the West Perth work release centre. That relates to the same Point of Order issue I raised earlier; that is, that there is evi- Mr BLAIKIE: I draw your attention to the dence of people who are perhaps recidivists- comments the Minister has made, and I suggest people who commit a second offence after they to you. Mr Chairman, my point of order relates are released from prison, either after their re- to the fact that if the Committee is to make lease on parole or work release, or after their [Wednesday. 26 November 1986])92 4929

completion of a sentence. If someone is given a In respect of the limited comments in re- 10-year sentence and is released after eight lation to the probation and parole system years on work release with some super-vision raised by the memn'ber for Mt Lawley, which and commits an offence, in my view, so long as comments did have some limited credibility the appropriate level of care has been and credence, I will draw them to the attention exercised, it is impossible to say that the so- of the Minister for Prisons. ciety would have been protected by keeping Division 34 put and passed. that person in prison for another two years, after which he or she would be released. Division 35: Local Government, $2 475 000- Mr CLARKO: The Burke Government is in The alternative is the soit of simplistic sol- the midst of imposing on local government ution put up by the member for Mt Lawley. wards of equal numbers of electors. The When we are dealing with horrible crimes it is a Wannerac Times dated 25 November 1986 has solution which does have some appeal to as its lead story "Minister may force ward people who have been victims of, or have been changes". The article commences- associated with, or have read about such crimes. That alternative is to throw the key Wanneroo City Council is on a collision away and leave them there, or transport them course with Local Government Minister to rhillip Island, or adopt the French system Jeff Carr. which was so graphically portrayed in the novel The article says many things, but because of the Papillon. We must take a sensible, non-political lateness of the hour-it is 12.15 a.m.-1 will attitude to these issues, and it is regrettable that not read it all. However, it does say that three the member for Mt Lawley is incapable of years ago the municipality conducted a review doing that. of public opinion in Wanneroo as to its ward boundaries and, to quote the Mayor- The member for Mt Lawley then raised the issue of the siting of the prison. I am reminded While the results were disappointing,- of a time when the member for Mt Lawley was That is, in terms of response. The article con- not involved in politics. In fact, I remember his tinues- forswearing politics to me on one occasion. "I -it proved am not in local government for politics; I have that people were satisfied no interest in politics," he said. I said, "Hob, ho, with the representation they had ... ho." H-e had about the same level of credibility Council believed at that time that there then as he has now. But I remember that when was no need to make changes and it has I had responsibility for Mines. Fuel and Energy not altered its opinion since. in 1983 we had a considerable discussion That really sums up very neatly the position in about the siting of the extensions to the Muja Western Australia at present. The Minister is power station. The Liberal Party, when in placing inordinate pressure on councils which Government, had decided that the siting of the will not accede to his insistence that they come next major power station would not be at Muja to heel and follow his unwarranted demands but at Bunbury because it did not want to put that each and every ward in the council be all its eggs in one basket. So it is a philosophical composed of the same number of electors- It thing that extends across Governments of all has been going on for three years. It is an at- political persuasions, and it is a good example tempt to implement this mindless piece of of the member for Mt Lawley's simply taking theoretical socialist dogma. It is a Labor policy political advantage of a situation- He has had dreamed up in smoke-filled convention the reasons explained to him in this Chamber centres, seeking to impose mathematical as to why the Government took the advice to democracy on the 139 disparate Western site this prison at Casuarina. Of course we can Australian local government authorities. find people who will be distressed with the siting of the prison there, just as people were The Minister, contrary to his normal nature, upset about the siting of the remand centre at has bludgeoned 45 councils into agreement Canning Vale when that decision was against their wishes and, according to a Press announced. release made by him a day or so ago, 15 of those 45 councils have been completely But, really and truly, I think the public is bludgeoned into submission; their changes will entitled to a better level of political sophisti- be gazetted within the month, and the Minister cation from the Opposition than it is displaying has in mind that they will be in operation for at present. the May 1987 elections. (1s55 4930 4930[ASSEMBLY]

If councils choose to change their bound- ations is made by a council, or if the coun- aries, that is one thing; but to have wholesale cil's review is still far short of meeting that boundary changes foisted on the Western criterion, the Minister may have to inter- Australian councils is reprehensible in the ex- vene. treme. and I say that even though the member The threat is quite obvious: Local authorities for South Perth is not here. As to those 45 will be overridden. So will the various local changes. which apparently will lead to gazettal government associations in WA, with which for 15 councils and for them to produce a new the Minister generally has extremely good re- system by May 1987, if we find that there is a lations, and I congratulate him on that. How- requirement for a total spill of those I5 or 45 ever, he is certainly not in agreement with the local authorities, we will see yet another side to associations on this issue. this irrational policy. The County Shire Councils Association We will see councillors who have been holds the view, with which the Opposition elected for three-year terms finding they have agrees- only one or two-year terms. That is at the heart That population is the sole criterion for of much of the objection that has come about setting ward boundaries and represen- on this issue, as the Minister knows. It is at the tation is totally unacceptable. heart of the issue in Canning. Some of those people who would like to see a change are wary The CSCA argues that three factors should be of it because of the possible requirement for a considered when setting ward boundaries: spill. Population, actual rates levied, and rateable area. The association also argues for percentage We have this Minister continuing to wage loading for votes, which would be given to the war on 40 or 50 councils because he finds their rural sector of a council. boundaries unsatisfactory-apart from 40 councils that have been bludgeoned into sub- Mr Stephens: A good idea. mission and another 40 roughly that were more Mr CLARKO: It seems to me those other or less acceptable to the Minister's idea. So three factors cover that. much for allowing councils maximum freedom Mr Stephens: Is that the Mr White principle? to determine their internal boundaries, some- Mr CLARKO: Yes, Bert White, a remarkable thing which has been the traditional way of man. operating in WA. Let us have a look at the Victorian Local If members look at the Act they will see that Government Act because what it says is that it is the Governor's prerogative-which we when we are determining a ward, to use our know is the Minister's right-to impose terminology, we should take into account a internal ward boundaries. Under previous Lib- whole host of factors: Community or diversity eral Ministers, particularly the member for of interest; means of communication; topogra- Dale. the approach adopted was that if a prob- phy: historic patterns; sociological patterns; lem developed, in accordance with the legis- demographic, economic, and employment pat- lation the Minister would meet with the council terns; finance, such as rates; the provision and and gently negotiate an agreeable solution. Can need for facilities and services: community any Government member say that was not the identity: any other relevant matter. That is a method used? When there was a problem with good collection of factors to be considered an imbalance of ward population, the tra- when detrmnining how to divide a local auth- ditional practice followed was to negotiate with ority into its various wards. the council. The Minister for Local Government wrote to I understand that in April 1984 the Minister the Country Shire Councils Association on 15 addressed what has been described to me as a October 1986 in reply to a letter dated 19 Local Government Ministers conference, September 1986 that it had sent to him on the which I think was in fact a Ministers liaison subject of ward boundaries and representation. meeting, where he said-and this is a bit I quote from his letter as follows- twisted and the grammar does not stand up to I believe that it is important that local close scrutiny- governments are democratically elected It has been determined that for the fu- bodies. For this condition to exist it is ture the sole criterion for ward represen- necessary that there be an electoral system tation will be on the basis of population. If which recognises the equal right of each no attempt to remove anomalous situ- elector. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986)193 4931

He goes on to say- of responsibility because it is a vast electorate Any system which recognises such cri- to look after with 55 electors. Perhaps their teria as. rates contributed, area and length responsibilities are not as heavy as the re- of roads, could not be described as demo- sponsibility of those councillors having to took cratic, and as I have stated on many oc- after I 1000 or 12 000 electors; but it is still a casions, the only criterion I am prepared to very responsible job and it requires them to recognise is the number of electors. give a great deal of attention to different mat- ters. Later he says- a The Labor Party would change the face of 'I am not willing to compromise baskc fundamental of democracy by Murchison, and instead of there being four recognising any factor, in deciding rep- councillors in the north ward there would be resentation, other than number of electors. three. What a cataclysm would occur in the Shire of Murchison if that were to happen. That makes it very clear where the Minister Each councillor who now represents 10 electors stands, and that is in total contradiction of would have to represent 14, and those in the those factors I listed in the Victorian Act and South Ward who represent 18 each would have the three factors the Country Shire Councils the tremendous relief of only representing 14 Association says should be the basis for because South Ward would have four council- determining ward boundaries. lors instead of three as now. That is the farce Here we have a total rejection by the Burke that is being pushed on us by this Government Government of any factor other than equality and this Minister. of electors within each ward of a council when The City of Stirling would have 11I185 if it is it comes to the question of ward represen- worked tation. Let us have a look at that in some detail, out mathematically. The Maylands ward has 6 580 electors. The City because I have been given what I regard as an of Stirling excellent piece of research. One document is a now has six wards with two councillors each, list compiled by people in the Minister's office and Maylands has one councillor and that ward and it is an excellent piece of research setting has 6 580 electors. The City of Stirling has met on this matter with the Minister and I think the out for each council in WA the number of elec- Minister was happy with the meeting. tors in each of the wards and indicating how many councillors they have now and how many Mr Carr: It was a very cordial meeting. they should have under a one-vote-one-value structure. I have another document which sets Mr CLARKO: The proposition was that it out for 138 councils in WA-it appears to be would take the Mt Lawley ward that the mem- one short-what the quota of electors per coun- ber for Mt Lawley represented and amalgamate cillor would be for all of our local authorities. that with Maylands which would bring it up to 14 000 electors making it of a similar size to In the Shire of Murchison each councillor other areas within the City of Stirling. If I were should have 14 electors. If we go to the other a councillor of the City of Stirling I would be end of the scale, to the City of Stirling, we find happy to have that city divided into six or 11 185 electors per councillor. Intriguingly seven wards with roughly equal numbers of there are a dozen councils in WA which have electors in each one. I believe the City of no wards. In the Minister's fair town of Stirling is a heterogenous area and I would vote Geraldton we find no wards, which means that for such a proposition. However, if I were a each councillor represents 12 932 electors. That councillor in the City of Wanneroo, I would is a higher number than in the City of Stirling. I not vote for an equal number of electors in presume they are able to do their job ad- each ward because the north ward is quite dif- equately. But that gives some idea of the huge ferent from the wards ini the south of the city. range in WA- from 14 to more than 12 000. The north ward is not a heterogenous -area. That is a massive difference: However, if we come down to the bottom part The Shire of Murchison has two wards, the of the City of Wanneroo to areas which form north ward and the south ward. The north part of my electorate, the situation is different. ward has 41 electors and four councillors while It is interesting to note that the percentage of the south ward has 55 electors and three coun- people in rural areas who vote in elections is cillors. This Minister cries out. "Shame! What higher than the percentage of the people from a dreadful thing to have three councillors totally urban areas who vote. It indicates the having to carry the responsibility of looking keen community of interest that exists in after 55 electors." They do carry a great weight smaller localities. 4932 4932[ASSEMBLY]

The City of Stirling has proposed a change to I have already referred to a map of Western six wards with two councillors each. It is Australia and in some local authorities there interesting that that situation will virtually cre- will be 14 electors to every councillor, 200 elec- ate a system of one-vote-one-value. Members tors to every councillor, 400 electors to every will be surprised to know that the three council- councillor or I 1000 electors to every council- Iors who voted against it are all dyed-in-the- lor. That is not a so-called system of equality. wool members of the Labor Party. One, I be- Mr Carr: You are confusing two different lieve, is a member of the State Executive. things. I have a sheet which sets out the quotas for Mr CLARKO: That is what will occur each local government area in the State. If throughout Western Australia. If I stood in the every council in Western Australia were div- middle of Beach Road would I find that the ided into wards of equal numbers of electors City of Wanneroc is democratic and the City of there would be about 139 different ward Stirling is undemocratic because one authority quotas, Murchison with 14 is the lowest. has I1000 electors to each councillor and the Thirty-one shires have under 100, 64 have other has 6 000 electors to each councillor? under 200. 92 authorities have under 500, 105 Mr Carr: That is nonsense and it has nothing authorities have under 1 000, and 124 to do with our policy. authorities have under 4 000. The two highest are (he City of Wanneroo and the City of' Mr CLARKO: The Government's policy Stirling with 6 000 and 12 000 respectively. would make sure that it would remain at 6 000 or 11 000 electors, It will create a system in Twelve local authorities have no wards- Western Australia where in each ward of a local Sandstone with 181 electors and the town of authority there will be the same number of Geraldion with 12 932. If!I had a map I could electors. If a local authority in the Murchison write in the quotas and we would see that were situated next to the City of Stirling we Broome has 55 electors per councillor and would find that there would be 14 electors to Halls Creek has 204. Are the people of Broome each councillor in one council and Il 1000 in at a serious disadvantage electorally because the other. they have fewer voters? If we come down to the The Labor Party believes in certain bound- Deputy Leader of the Opposition's town of ary propositions but what effect will they have Carnarvon, we find that it has 358 electors, on the community? The members of the Upper Gascoyne has 21. and Murchison has National Party will be very interested in this 14. If we then go down to the northern wheatbelt because the Department of Local Government area and take two places pretty close has produced a document which shows that the together. Mingenew has 74 and Coorow has 152. result of Labor's proposals is that more council- Is one of those shires receiving a rotten lors will be elected from the town centres than deal out of its local authority? If we then come from their rural areas. I am told by a person down to the area where I was born, the town of who is very knowledgeable about local govern- Cottesloe, we see that Cottesloe has 480, the ment that this proposal will not work because next local government area of Claremont has there is nothing to stop a farmer from 737, and the City of Nedlands has 1 193. Do nominating for a town ward to become elected. the people in those local government areas ex- What will the Government achieve? It will not perience problems? That is nonsense. achieve better local government. I now come to my electorate which is partly The Government will take away a decision- in the City of Wan neroo and partly in the City making power from local authorities. Without of Stirling. Beach Road divides the two local political interference they have executed their government areas. In the City of Wanneroc duties in their own way. We have 139 local there is one councillor for every 6 122 electors, authorities in Western Australia and in which and in the City of Stirling. one councillor for authority do we find a hot bed of discontent every 11 185. where people are rising in the streets and saying Is there a decrease in the local government that the current system is dreadful and that it capacity on the other side of Beach Road? In should be changed to allow for an equal num- the City of Stirling there will be I 1 000 electors ber of electors in each ward?' to each councillor and across Beach Road. in At present there is a problem in the City of the City of Wanneroo, there will be 6 000 elec- Canning, but it is a different sont of problem. I tors to each councillor. It is nonsense and it has am sure the Minister will use the proper nego- nothing to do with the situation. tiating process because he will be reluctant to [Wednesday. 26 November 1986) 493393 create a difficult situation. Those sorts of prob- them. I am sure that if that had been the case lems have been solved in the past by Ministers the appointee would have obtained advice who have used the negotiating process and who ftom George Bray.. have not come down with the hatchet by 1 would appreciate the Minister giving the stating what the authority will do. Chamber the benefit of his planned approach The Labor Party is deliberately attempting to to resolve the situation in the City of Canning. create a system which I hope I have exposed as I understand that he has given the council until being a cockeyed one. In addition to that the Friday to write to him. I will be interested to Government has other proposals, one being learn what action the Minister proposes to take compulsory voting. Despite the fact that this in this matter. Government took steps to give people who do If the Government presses ahead and forces not pay rates the same voting rights as people on the 139 local authorities, against their who do pay rates, it has made statements about wishes, a system whereby there will be an equal the introduction of compulsory voting. The number of electors in each ward, it will invite Government has created two classes of citizens the Opposition, when it is returned to Govern- and it is now possible for a person to be elected ment, to take action to prevent further changes as a councillor and to be a party to striking the to local government boundaries unless it is the rate even though he does not pay rates. decision of both Houses of this Parliament. We People still do not want to vote in local will be pushed to take that action if this government elections unless there is a signifi- Government interferes. cant local issue. 1am not sure of the Percentage Mr Carr: You tried to do that before and I have asked of voters at the last May elections. your colleagues in another place mucked it up. an officer from the Minister's department to provide me with the statistics for that election, Mr CLARKO: The Opposition will be forced but they are still coming. I would like to be in a to take that direction. I am being asked about position to quote the percentage of people who what this Government proposes to do and that voted at those elections. The Government will if it proceeds to take that course, what I would try to force 94 per cent of the population to do when we were returned to Government. We vote in local government elections. I will not go would be pressured into reaching an agreement into the issue of compulsory voting at this to take this power out of the hands of the Min- stage, but I will certainly do so in March or ister and introduce a situation which would be April next year. I have a very thick file which difficult to change. shows that in the Eastern States local That would be inferior to the present authorities have a Claytons system of compul- position because people could go to local sory voting. government authorities and do what the mem- The Government also has a proposal to in- ber for Dale used to do. We would probably get troduce triennial elections which is designed to somewhere that way instead of following the increase the Labor Party's representation in lo- process through by letter and all the rest of it. cal government. I am told that unless a local This is an attempt to impose these things on authority has a nil population growth there councils very much against their wishes. I do would be a need to change the boundaries not think that my request of the Minister that every six or seven years. It would often happen he reconsider his party's position on this mat- that a councillor who is serving a three-year ter will succeed, but he should do so because he tern may. as a result of the change to the is causing a great deal of disquiet among local boundaries. have a one7year term only. government councillors and authorities which I understand from a couple of sources that are working well at present. If the Minister Mr George Bray, an adviser to the Minister, changed the present situation, he would cause will be the local government representative on. them serious troubles and would end up only the committee which is being set up to carry with the sorts of figures I mentioned in my out a review of the Swan and Canning Rivers. I comments. am disappointed that this appointment has Mr MARLBOROUGH: I request the Minis- been made and the Local Government Associ- ter to review urgently the Prevention of Cruelty ation shares my view. It is improper to appoint to Animals Act. I ask for that review because anyone from the Minister's department to that the Act no longer meets the requirements of position. In Western Australia there are primary industr. The Act provides for maxi- approximately 1 400 councillors and an excel- mum fines of $250; that amount has not lent appointment could have been made from changed for a number of years. Most of the 4934 4934ASSEMBLY] fines are in the region of $20 and $40 for the Mr Blaikie: What are the standards that ap- actions that are able to be prosecuted under the ply in the UK? It is very important to the de- Act. The Act no longer has the ability to lay bate because a number of members on this side down adequate guidelines for feedlots which of the Chamber would have an interest in what are in increasing demand with the present you are saying. method of handling cattle within primary in- Mr MARLBOROUGH: With respect to dustry. space allocation reco mmendat ions, Mr Taylor There is inadequate legislation to cover the states- transportation of feed stock as it applies in par- Recommendations are variable. The ticular to the primary industry group. It is re- UFAW Handbook (UK) recommends an strictive because it does not allow organisations area of about 7.5 square metres per head such as the Royal Society for the Prevention of for shedded 2-year-old steers. However, it Cruelty to Animals to carry out their job as noted that results from a survey of inten- they should. sively reared young beef cattle in sheds, On 27 July 1986 it was reported in the showed no difference in production Sundayv Times that a feedlot where 55 000 (weight gain) within the range of 2-7 sheep were being held had a major outbreak of square metres per head. salmonella. Over 2 000 sheep had to be put Recommendations for outdoor feedlots down due to that outbreak. The report made range from 7 square metres to 38 square following that outbreak clearly indicates that metres per head. An American reference the Act is inadequate in terms of laying down suggests 7 square metres for dry climates standards covering feedlots. and 38 square metres for wet climates. Mr Blaikie: Where was the feedlot? Mr Blaikie: What do you believe should be Mr MARLBOROUGH: In Baldivis, but the space allocation? there are many more like it. Mr MARLBOROUGH: I am not an expert Due to bad management and inadequate fa- on what should apply. I am saying that there cilities in the feedlot. animals suffered in that are no guidlines within the Act that lay down way, but there are other examples. I refer to a any standards whatsoever. The letter from Mr letter which should carry some weight in the Taylor indicated that those standards are being Chamber. It was written by Mr Taylor, the looked at in Australia and it is to be hoped that senior lecturer in beef cattle production at they will be available. However, they are not in Murdoch University. He wrote with respect to the Act. the need far feedlot standards, and in his open- I move from feedlots to the transportation of ing paragraph. he states- livestock. As the member for Cockburn, I quite After perusal of the Prevention of regularly drive along Cockburn Road when Cruelty to Animals Act, the relevant sec- travelling from my electoral office to Parlia- tions appear to be 3(f) to knowingly over- ment; I am often caught behind sheep trucks crowd and 4(b) failure to supply sufficient travelling in the main from the Baldivis area to protection against inclement weather. Robb Jetty. I am absolutely appalled at the Since the act provides no specific standards that apply to the carting of sheep and guidelines I made enquiries within cattle. Last week I had the misfortune to travel Australia to establish if any specific codes some five kilometres behind a vehicle that was of practice for cattle feedlots were cur- carrying sheep using the three-tier system. Legs rently available. Both the Australian Veter- and heads protruded from the vehicle and inary Association and the Cattle Council sheep were lying in positions in which they of Australia are currently drafting some were being trampled on by other sheep. feedlot recommendations but these are not It has also been brought to my attention that yet available. sheep and cattle have been canted to the Mid- land saleyard in such vehicles as sand trucks. I Mr Taylor goes on to quote the standards that apply in countries Overseas such as the United am advised that when the word gets around the Kingdom and America. puchasers of the cattle or sheep knock off so many dollars per head because they know that The Act that we must abide by does not cattle and sheep canted in such a way are not cover the set of circumstances that are required adequately protected and will be bruised at the in the feedlot area in 1986. time of purchase. Unfortunately, the Preven- [Wednesday, 26 November 1986] 493543 lion of Cruelty to Animals Act makes no pro- with no grating for foot hold, approx I5ft vision for the standards that should be in place long, with about 25 head of sheep and no in relation to the carting of livestock. partitions. Nobody in the Chamber from either side of Other vehicles with any type of crate the Parliament would want to see animals knocked together so long as it would hold mistreated. The Act does not provide for the the sheep on the floor of the truck. standards that I am sure we would all appreci- This type of transportation is being used today ate being in place. for sheep and cattle in this industry. I am raising this issue to bring it to the atten- I ask the tion of the Minister. While on the subject of the Minister to take notice of the fact Midland saleyards. it has been brought to my that in my humble opinion the Prevention of attention that every day on which sheep sales Cruelty to Animals Act no longer adequately covens that situation. It needs to be re-viewed are held at Midland. up to 140 sheep have to be wijth put down by the RSPCA. It is a disgrace and it some urgency. We have moved into an age should be vigorously pursued by the media. in which sheep are being transported in large This situation should be brought numbers because they are being sold overseas. to the atten- That tion of the public because I am advised that is the direction in which the primary in- most of these sheep should not be killed and it dustry has headed in recent years. For the would not be necessary if they had been treated reasonis I have stated, I stress the need to re- properly. They should never have been allowed view this legislation as urgently as possible. to leave the farms in the first instance because they were too ill to travel and too ill to be sold. Progress They are put in vehicles, canted to Midland Progress reported and leave given to sit saleyards. and they are then humanely killed by again, on motion by Mr Stephens. the RSPCA. It costs the farmer nothing for the sheep to be put down. BILLS (5): RETURNED Mr Stephens: if you cart an animal 300 or I- Acts Amendment and Repeal 400 miles to the saleyard and do not sell it, it (Environmental Protection) Bill. cannot be said that it costs you nothing. 2. Road Traffic Amendment Bill (No. 2). Mr MARLBOROUGH: If the member for 3. Acts Amendment (Port Authorities) Stirling considers that he has no responsibility Bill. for the welfare of the, animal besides making a 4. Betting Control (Bunbury Golden quid, he is entitled to make that judgement. Classic) Bill. Mr Blaikie: Have you been to the Midland Bills returned from the Council without saleyard? amendment. Mr MARLBOROUGH: Not for years. I will 5. Environmental Protection Bill. read from a. report dealing with cattle and sheep which have been transported to the Mid- Bill returned from the Council with land saleyards. It states- amendments. Those animals had no reason to be in the yards under any circumstances, and should ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE: never have been loaded on the trucks in ORDINARY the first place, to suffer the agonies of the MR PEARCE (Armadale-Leader of the transport. House) [ 1.07 a.m.J: I move- Animals loaded to the hilt with Arthritis, That the House do now adjourn. both knees up to three times their normal In moving the adjournment I advise members size.- Another with an old time previous. that they should be prepared to sit on Friday of broken leg which had healed, carrying at this week. The proceedings will start at 10.45 right angle outwards to its body. Others a.m. and the finishing time will depend on the exceptionally badly fly struck and had amount of business to be conducted. From my been for days previous to being loaded. estimation of the amount of business to be To mention just a few of the absolutely completed, members should be prepared to sit disgusting sights down there!! on Friday evening. Transportation-Some of the vehicles transporting the stock in, one a steel sided Questions put and passed. and front. body, 3 to 4ft high. steel floor House adjournedat 1.08 a. m. (Thursday) 4936 4936[ASSEMBLY]

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE (2) How has Westrail proposed that these work practices be altered? PORTS AND HARBOURS (3) What are the likely savings for growers Albany: Export Loading Facilities if these practices can be changed in a 1800. Mr STEPHENS, to the Minister for way "that would optimise the use of Transport: Westrail assets"? (1) In respect of the two major industrial Mr TROY replied: projects considered regarding the "Albany Tomorrow" strategy, (1) and (2) Westrail originally proposed woodehipping and sandmining, do changes to a number of aspects of preliminary plans exist in respect of existing work practices- provision of export loading facilities at the port of Albany? Extending the length of continu- (2) If yes, what stages have been reached ous outloading runs from country in planning, and what are planning bins; costs to date? (3) With respect to the proposed projects, extending the number of hours woodchipping and/or sandmining. per day country bins and port fa- what are the estimated costs cilities would be available for of port loading and unloading trains; expansion programmes to the- (a) State: avoiding interruptions to trains (b) industries concerned: unloading at port: (c) Federal Government? achieving homogeneous train Mr TROY replied: loads of grain-ic, avoiding having several grain types on one (1) and (2) I appreciate the member's train. interest in the Government's forward thinking in this area. In the short It was determined in discussion be- term, wharf facilities at the port would tween CBH and Westrail that full im- be adequate to cater for these com- plementation of the Westrail proposal, modities with very little adaptation, while substantially improving rail ef- and loading facilities would be ficiency, would have imposed costs on expected to be provided by the ex- CS!-. Accordingly, a compromise ar- porter. Longer-term options will be rangement was worked out which considered by the port authority as encompassed some of the key el- pant of its port strategy plan which is ements of the Westrail proposal while currently under review. The port auth- avoiding major negative impacts on ority is. of course, familiar with the CBH. The key changes relate to reduc- possible developments. ing the number of country outloading (3) It is too early to determine port expan- points operating at any one time and sion programmes in respect of these better aligning CBH operating times proposed projects, and cost estimates with train turnaround requirements. are therefore not available. (3) The revised working arrangements will permit Westrail to offer lower CO-OPERATIVE BULK HANDLING LTD freight rates to growers in the coming Work Practices season, amounting to $2.25 million or 47c per tonne, based on projected 1820. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for tonnage figures. Significant savings in Transport: rail rolling stock requirements over (1) What specific work practices of Co- the next few years will also enable operative Bulk Handling Limited were Westrail to introduce rail rates com- being referred to in the Westrail ad- petitive with those of road transport vertisement on grain freights? by 1988-89. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986]193 4937

RURAL ADJUSTMENT AND FINANCE ABATTOIRS CORP0ORATION Lamb Intelligence Service: Sources Changes 1853. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for Agriculture: 1841. Mr SCHELL, to the Minister for Would he detail the sources used by Agriculture: the Western Australian Meat Market- Is he considering changes to the Rural ing Corporation to provide it with market intelligence, in particular with Adjustment and Finance Corporation its lamb that will have the effect of making it marketing operations? an institution Similar to an agricul- Mr GRILL replied: tural bank? The corporation monitors Depart- ment of Agriculture livestock sale re- Mr GRILL replied: ports around Australia and various trade and industry No. publications, and analyses discussions between its mar- keting staff and the trade around ABATTOI RS Australia. Lambs: Purchase ABATTOI RS 1852. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for Lambs:-Price Agriculture: 1854. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for Agriculture: (1) Further to question 1598 (5) of 1986, Would he indicate maximum actual from what source did the marketing division of the Western Australian prices received by growers for lambs Meat Commission purchase the lambs sold through the Western Australian referred to? Meat and Livestock Corporation- lamb marketing section-during the (2) Further to (I), if the lambs were pur- week ending 13 November? chased "outside" the Western Mr GRILL replied: Australian Lamb Board, would he pro- I presume the member refers to the vide a random sample of costs includ- Western Australian Meat Marketing ing weight, grade, etc.. of lambs pur- Corporation. The maximum actual chased? price received by growers was $27.28, Mr GRILL replied: which includes skin proceeds.

(1) A combination of Eastern States abat- EGG MARKETING BOARD toir operators and local Western Australian broker-wholesalers. Members 1855. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for (2) Eastern States product is not traded Agriculture: on a specific classification basis as is (1) Who are the members of the Egg Mar- Western Australian product, and keting Board? therefore the tendency is to purchase (2) When were they appointed, and what on a spread of weight ranges with a variation of fat depths, on an as interests do they represent? received -natural fallV basis. For (3) On how many occasions did the board example, in November 1985, 700 meet in 1985? lambs within a weight range of 15 to (4) What were the total fees and expenses 19 kilograms were ordered on a natu- paid to board members in that year? ral fall basis at $1.37 per kilogram. Mr GRILL replied: These lambs would have combined four or five of the Western Australian (1) and (2) Member Organisation Date Lamb Board's schedule of grades, and Appointed L.Craigi(Chairman) Independent V 12/85 the average weight calculated at 17.4 P.' . Newing Elected producers' representative 7/84 kilograms. L. I. Bell Elected producers* representative 3/886 4938 4938[ASSEMBLY]

T. J Woodwd Elecied produeer reprsntative 7/8/85 (2) Since Mr Moyes is reported as L Kouckey Consumer, rpwsntative 4/9/84 saying R. E. Banert Consumersrpresntative 3/2185 "the Egg Board is a costly unnecessary body", can he advise whether a simi- (3) Eleven limes in 1985-86. lar situation exists in Western (4) $27 956. Australia, and what is the Govern- ment policy on the Egg Board and its future? EGGS Mr GRILL replied: Production (1) Yes. 1856. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for Agriculture: (2) The South Australian Egg Board has the limited functions of setting prices, (1) What is the total production of eggs in processing eggs for pulping, and acting Western Australia and how does this as the licensing authority. It does not compare with production in other physically handle shell eggs. States? (2) What is In contrast, the Western Australian the current price of' eggs to Board is involved in all growers in the Western Australian Egg Marketing metropolitan aspects of egg marketing. Unlike other area, and how does this State boards, it has successfully compare with other States? managed to produce a zero surplus of (3) Do all other States have an Egg Mar- eggs over the past five years, thereby keting Board or similar, and if not reducing costs to a minimum. would he indicate? The board is regarded as an efficient Mr GRILL replied: organisation, operating in the best (1) Egg production in the South-West interests of the consumer and pro- Land Division of Western Australia in ducer, and represents orderly market- l985-86 was 15 857 670 dozen. Egg ing which is in line with Government production in other mainland States policy. during the same period was The Government has not considered approximately- deregulation of the Egg Hoard in this New South Wales-75 million State. dozen Victoria-SO million dozen AGRICULTURE Queensland-I17 million dozen Farm Apprenticeship Scheme South Australia-IS million 1859. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for dozen Agriculture: (2) The weighted average price of eggs to (1) How many persons have been ac- growers for the different grades of eggs cepted under the farm apprenticeship in Western Australia during 1985-86 scheme in this State in each year of was 109 cents per dozen. A compar- operation? able figure is not immediately avail- able from other States. (2) Would he detail the respective agricul- tural pursuits where apprenticeships (3) Yes. have been undertaken, i.e. dairying, cereal, horticultural, etc? EGGS (3) What is the Government, State or South Australian Board Federal, assistance to these farm ap- prenticeship schemes? 1857. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for Agriculture: (4) How does the scheme in Western (1) Is he aware that his South Australian Australia compare with schemes counterpart Agriculture Minister, Mr operating in other States by numbers, Mayes. is seeking public support for courses, etc? partial deregulation of the Egg Board (5) What is the Government's future pol- in South Australia? icy for this scheme? [Wednesday, 26 November 19861 434939

Mr GRILL replied: intake required and future company This question has wrongly been Policy for the factories situated at addressed to the Minister for Albany and Mt Barker respectively?7 Agriculture. It has been referred to the (2) If so, would he detail? Minister for Employment and Train- Mr GRILL replied: ing, and he will answ, r the question in writing. (1) and (2) Milk requirements of the dairy produce factories are monitored by the Dairy Industry Authority in con- AGRICULTURE sultation with the dairy companies. Farmn Apprenticeship Schemne The DIA has received no indication 1860. Mr BLAIKIE. to the Minister for that there will be any change to the Agriculture: present position. (1) To what extent has this department been involved in promoting and as- sisting generally with the introduction DAIRYING of a farm apprenticeship scheme? Milk Quotas: Auction (2) Has his department offered any per- 1865. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minster for sons the opportunity of a farm appren- Agriculture: ticeship, and if so, would he detail? With the advent of auction of milk (3) If not. why not? quotas, what is the Government's pol- Mr GRILL replied: icy which will enable milk quotas to be sold, while ensuring adequate and Since establishment of the farm ap- viable supplies of milk in regional prenticeship scheme- areas, such as Albany? I)The Department of Agriculture has been represented on the In- Mr GRILL replied: dustrial Training Advisory Board The new quota arrangements will not for the Farming Trades. During threaten the continuity of fresh milk mid-1985 the scheme's pro- supplies to customers in Albany or motion was assisted by the de- any other regional centre in this State. partment's "Farming Today" In fact, there has been a slight move- television and Press services. ment of quota to the Albany area. Through the board the depart- ment has made its research DAIRYING station facilities available for specialist training where this Milk Quotas: Auction might be unavailable on an indi- 1866. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for vidual farm. Agriculture: (2) Three apprenticeship positions (1) What is the amnount of milk quota in were established and taken up on each category that will be available in research stations in mid-1985. A the State's first milk quota auction? fourth is presently being dis- (2) What is the Government's policy current wages em- re- cussed for a garding purchased milk quota, when a ployee. person desires to produce that quota (3) Not applicable. in another region of the State? (3) What is the Government's policy for DAIRYING expanding milk production and Milk In take:-Factories processing on -the south coast-Albany 1864. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for region? Agriculture: Mr GRILL replied: (1) Have his officers or bodies under his (I) The Dairy Industry Authority control had discussion with the man- received offerings from dairy farmers agement of Masters Dairy or Waisons totalling 14 615 litres daily of market Foods regarding the minimum milk milk quota and 4 392 litres daily of 4940 4940[ASSEMBLY]

special milk products quota for can he explain the discrepancy be- transfer at the first quota auction tween the statement contained in his exchange on 24 November 1986. letter and the PIA's rebuttal of his (2) Quota milk may only be produced by claim? licensed dairymen operating from Mr GRILL replied: registered dairy premises. The new ar- There is no discrepancy between the rangements will only allow milk quota letter sent to members of this House to move between existing quota and the article referred to by the for- holders within the established dairy- mer Leader of the Opposition. The let- ing area of this State. ter did not even refer to the PIA. (3) The new arrangements are neutral as to where milk production may MIDLAND SALEYARDS relocate or expand within the estab- lished dairying area of this State. As Lease: Minister's Letter such, relocation or expansion under a 1871. Mr HASSELL, to the Minister for more flexible quota regime is likely to Agriculture: occur over time, and favour those re- (1) Referring him to a letter he sent to gions best suited to milk production members of this House in which he and processing. said in relation to the Midland abat- toir and saleyards, "The major stock firms were specifically approached, as ANIMAL WELFARE were a number of transport companies. Senate Select Comm~ittee: Submission Not one had any real interest in buy- 1867. Mr BLAIKIE. to the Minister for ing it"% was any stock firm or Agriculture: transport company approached with a view to showing interest in the (1) Has his department made any sub- saleyards as distinct from the abattoir mission to the Senate Select Com- site? mittee on animal welfare? (2) Was any stock firm or transport (2) Can he advise if the committee in- company approached with a view to tends to visit Western Australia, and if showing interest in the joint abattoir- so. on what dates? saleyards site? Mr GRILL replied: (3) If yes to (1) or (2), which companies (1) The Department of Agriculture were approached? contributed to the Western Australian Mr GRILL replied: Government's submission to the Sen- (1) 1 refer the member to the GHD- ate Select Committee. Dwyer report and, in particular, (2) It is understood that the Senate Select appendices 3 and 4 wherein it is Committee on animal welfare intends clearly shown that over time regis- to visit Western Australia in 1987. trations of interest for the abattoir Firm dates have not been advised. from a whole range of potential users, including stock and livestock transport firms, were specifically MIDLAND SALSYARDS sought. Lease:- Minister's Letter (2) and (3) Answered by (I). 1870. Mr HASSELL. to the Minister for Agriculture: MIDLAND SALEYARDS Referring him to- Lease: Minister's Letter (a) a letter he sent to members of this 1872. Mr HASSELL, to the Minister for House regarding the lease of the Agriculture: Midland saleyards; (1) Referring him to a letter he sent to (b) the front page article in the members of this House in which he Farners Weekly of 12 November said the future of the Midland 1986 headed -~Midland Lease saleyards was secured for eight years, Was Never Accepted by PIA", is he aware of any document which [Wednesday. 26 November 1986] 444941

precludes Plsley Investments from (2) No. giving notice after four years of its (3) Pursuant to proper procedures to lease term that it will require the change the status of the land to a saleyards at the expiry of the lease? Crown grant in fee simple held by (2) If yes, what is that document, and will WAMC under section 15 of the Abat- he table it? toirs Act. (3) If no to (2). can he explain to the (4) 18 April 1986. House how the future of the saleyards (5) and (6) Not applicable. is protected for eight years? Mr GRILL replied: MIDLAND ABATTOIR SALE (1) and (2) The saleyards are protected for a minimum of six years as provided GaZentals by clause 9 of the offer and acceptance 1877. Mr H-ASSELL, to the Minister for dated 18 April 1986. Agriculture: (3) 1 refer the member to an article in the (1) Have all necessary gazettals been com- Midland-Kalam undo Reporter of 17 plied with in regard to the sale of the June 84 where using the Midland Midland abattoir and saleyards? Chamber of Commerce public meet- (2) If no, which gazettals remain to be ing as a forum, Mr Ellett stated, "in completed? my negotiations with the Government I have given an assurance that the Mr GRILL replied: saleyards will operate for as long as (I) No. they are needed." (2) Cancellation of Reserve No. 23917 set aside for use and requirements of the MINISTERS OF THE CROWN: CABINET WA Meat Commission has yet to be A uthorisation: Midland Abattoir Sale referred to Executive Council for sub- sequent notice in the Government Ga- 1876. Mr HASSELL, to the Minister for zette. Such action is always sub- Agriculture: sequent to the issue of the Crown (1) Referring him to his statement in The grant. West Australian on 14 November 1986 in which referring to the offer and acceptance on the sale of the Mid- MIDLAND ABATTOIR SALE land abattoir and salcyard he said: "I Documents signed the offer and acceptance with 1878. Mr H-ASSELL, to the Minister for the full authority of Cabinet"; what Agriculture: was the date of the Cabinet minute authorising the Minister to sign the (1) Did he sign the purchase and sale offer and acceptance? documentation on behalf of the West- ern Australian Meat Commission in (2) Will he table the Cabinet minute? regard to its purchase of the Midland (3) Under which section of which Act was abattoir and saleyard site and its sale he authorised to sign the offer and ac- of the land to Pilsley Investments Ply ceptance? Ltd? (4) What was the date of the offer and (2) If yes, under which section of which acceptance to which he referred in the Act of Parliament was he authorised above quotation? to sign those documents? (5) -if that offer and acceptance is. not the (fIf no to0(2)., who signed the documents same offer and acceptance as that on behalf of the Western Australian which has been tabled, why was it Meat Commission? necessary to draw up a new offer and Mr GRILL replied: acceptance? (6) If there is a new offer and acceptance, (1) to (3) The land in question was will he table it?, transferred to the WA Meat Com- mission by the Governor-in-Executive Mr GRILL replied: Council on advice and pursuant to a (1) 7 April 1986. decision of the previous Government. 4942 4942[ASSEMBLY]

No purchase and sale documents were (b) capacity; and involved and, in fact, were unnecess- ary. (c) type of patrol work undertaken, i.e. onshore, offshore, etc? In respect to the transfer of the land from WA Meat Commission to Pilsicy (3) What have been the number of hours Investments Pty Ltd, the transfer was that the vessels have been used for pa- executed by the WA Meat Com- trol work in each year since 1984? mission on my authorisation under (4) Would he indicate the location of pa- section 15 (2) of the Abattoirs Act and trol vessels and areas of responsi- pursuant to a decision of Cabinet to bility? effect sale of the site. In respect of this transfer, no purchase and sale docu- Mr GRILL replied: ments were strictly necessary either. (1) Four ocean-going vessels; 14 small I signed an offer and acceptance form boats with limited offshore capabili- to document the terms and conditions ties; 21 small dinghies, punts, and upon which Cabinet was prepared to canoes with river and estuarine capa- allow the sale to proceed. The docu- bilities. ment was not signed on behalf of the WA Meat Commission, but was (2) (a) Ocean-going vessels were com- signed with the knowledge that the missioned in 1972, 1974, 1976, WA Meat Commission would be and 1981. One smaller boat was bound by the agreement under my built in 1975 and one in 1976. powers of direction pursuant to the The remainder were either new or section of the Act aforementioned. replaced since 1980; (b) ocean-going vessels range between DAIRYING 15 metres and 20 metres; the Milk Quotas: Auction smaller vessels between five metres and 7.5 metres; small 1881. Mr BRADSH-AW, to the Minister for dinghies are between three metres Agriculture: and five metres; (1) Did any other companies, beside Gar- land National Properties, tender to (c) answered by(l). conduct the auctioning of milk quotas (3) Ocean-going vessels have logged the for the Dairy Industry Authority? following hours- (2) If so. which companies? 1984-2 987 hours (3) Which company tendered the lowest quote to conduct the auctions? 1985-2 858 hours Mr GRILL replied: to 30 October 1986-2 013 hours. (1) Yes. The information for the smaller boats (2) Elders Pastoral, Southern Districts Es- and dinghies is not recorded. tate Agency, and Wesfarmers Rural. (4) (a) The ocean-going vessels are (3) Garland National Properties' sub- located at Fremantle-two mission was assessed by the Dairy In- vessels-Geraldton, and Carnar- dustry Authority to be the most cost- von. The smaller vessels are effective of the proposals submitted. located at Fremantle, metropoli- tan area, Carnarvon. Denham, FISHERIES DEPARTMENT Geraldion, Dongara, Jurien. Patrol Vessels Lancelin, Mandurah, Bunbury, and Albany. The dinghies are 1891. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for located throughout the State; Fisheries: (1) How many patrol vessels does his de- (b) the vessels are involved in en- partment have? forcement and management func- tions within the localities that (2) Would he give details of the- they are patrolling at any one (a) age; time. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986]194 4943

DEPARTM ENT OF TUE PR EM IER AN D (b) in progress; CABINET (c) completed;, Air Charters: Cost (d) rejected; 1901. Mr COURT. to the Premier: (e) held over, What was the total cost of air charters incurred by the Department of the that led to an actual expenditure of Premier and Cabinet during the- S$14 031 million in that financial year? (a) 1984-85 financial year; (2) Further to (1), how much of the funds (b) 1985-86 financial year; were from Commonwealth Govern- ment sources, and has that amount Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: been- I refer the member to the reply given (a) expended;or to question 514 asked in the Legislat- ive Council on 21 October 1986. (b) is, pro rata, still available? (3) Further to (2), would he detail the TOURISM amounts involved? Time-sharing Resorts; Statistics Mr TROY replied: 1909. Mr BLAIKIE. to the Minister for (1) (a) The Budget allocation for the 14 Planning: new projects commenced in 1985- Would he detail the number and lo- 86 was $4 657 000. Actual expen- cation of time-sharing development- diture on these works at June resort projects in Western Australia? 1986 amounted to $2223448 with other amounts committed Mr PEARCE replied: under contracts, for the supply of There are five time-share resort proj- goods and services, but not paid. ects in the State presently registered The amount not actually with the Department of Corporate Af- expended on these new works in fairs. These are- 1986 was $2 433 552. Ocean Landing Beach Resort The main item of under- West Coast Highway spending-I 318 105-was Sorrento WA 6020 caused by the delay in reaching Silver Sands Resort agreement within the Shire of Mandurah Terrace Mandurab on cost-sharing ar- Mandurab WA 62 10 rangements for the development Kalbarri Vacation Resort (Club of a permanent navigation chan- Kalbarri) nel at the Mandurab ocean en- Kalbarri WA 6536 trance. River Resort (b,) The Budget allocation for the 22 South Yunderup WA 6208 projects in progress at July 1985 was $ 13 038 000, with actual ex- Busselton Beach Resort penditure at the end of the Geographe Bay Road financial year amounting to Busselton WA 6280 $11 808026. The amount underspent at 30 June was MARINE AND HARBOU RS DEPARTMENT $1 229 974. The Hillarys Boat Harbour represented the main Works Programme Capital item Of underspending, 1912. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for SI 713 311. Transport: Statements setting out the Budget (1) Would he explain of the 117 695 allocations and the actual end of million proposed for expenditure year expenditure for the individ- under Marine and Harbours in the ual new works and works in prog- 1986 Capital Works programme, what ress undertaken by the depart- projects and value were- ment during 1985-86 are set out (a) commenced; in the relevant General Loan and 4944 4944[ASSEM BLYJ

Capital Works Fund Estimates of (3) $140000 for improvements to Expenditure already tabled in the parking in the Fremantle fishing boat House with the Budget papers. harbo ur and $ 100 000 for navigation aids. (c) Ten of these projects were completed during the year at an actual cast of $800 425. The AGRICULTURE: FERTILISERS completed works are- Imports: Subsidies WORKS COMMENCED 1985- 1915. Mr ELAIKZE, to the Minister for 86 Agriculture: Land acquisition at Lancelin (1) What action has he taken to allay con- Boat launching ramps-minor cern that the Federal Government in- works. tends to reject subsidies on imported fertilisers? WORKS ALREADY IN PROG- RESS 1985-86 (2). Can he substantiate whether this will mean that imported fertiliser would be Pant Walcott office up to $40 per tonne more expensive Geographe Bay investigations than locally-made products? Leeman jetty M r G RI LL repl ied: Rockingham boat launching ramp (1) The Federal Government has already Preston Paint boat launching made the decision to remove subsidies ramp on imported fertilisers. This was Guildford foreshore protection announced by the Minister for Pri- mary Industry, John Kerin, on 19 Ledge Point beach stabilisation August 1986. Mandurah ocean entrance dredg- ing Officers from the Department of Agriculture are in contact with the De- (d) None of the approved works was partment of Primary Industry, which rejected is monitoring fertiliser prices to en- (e) The only projects held over sure that domestic manufacturers pass an the price reductions that should ap- were- ply to local ly-produced fertilisers. Sur- (i) the dredging of the perma- veillance is also being maintained on nent navigable channel at the the price of imported fertilisers. Mandurah ocean entrance in (2) No. Some studies as to the likely ef- respect of which only essen- fects of this decision an the price of tial dredging and associated imported fertilisers have been works amounting to undertaken by the Department of Pri- $124 895 were carried out to mary Industry, but the results have provide a navigable channel not yet been released. The effects will prior to -the opening of the differ for different fertilisers because fishing season; of the varying rates of subsidy that are (ii) the Port Denison mooring now to apply. pens in respect of which some materials were pur- chased but work was deferred FISHERIES pending the completion of Buyv Back Scheme: Budget Allocation breakwater extensions at the 1916. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for harbour entrance. Fisheries: (2) Funds to be provided from Common- What is the extent of funds in the wealth Government sources amount 1986-87 Budget to be available as part to $240000. $79289 was recouped of a fisheries "buy back" scheme? during 1985-86, and the balance will be available this year when works are Mr GRILL replied: completed. $160000. [Wednesday, 26 November 19861 444945

FISHERIES Esperance rock lobster Limited Entry: Areas Windy Harbour-Augusta rock 1917. Mr BLAIKIE. to the Minister for lobster King George Sound purse seine Fisheries: Barramundi (1) Would he indicate those fisheries that West coast deepwater crab trap are- (c) Open "unit" fisheries-The (a) limited entry: status of these fisheries is under (b) proposed limited entry; continual review- (c) open? South-west and metropolitan (2) Further to (1), what restrictions, if trawl any, are imposed on amateur North-west trawl-Onslow, Port fishermen, and how are these con- Samson, etc. ditions enforced? South coast beach seine Mr GRILL replied: Cape Bouvard to Cape Beaufort (1) (a) The following is a list of fisheries beach seint off Western Australia to which ac- Metropolitan beach seine cess is limited to a particular Moore River to 27' beach seine group of fishermen. They fall Carnarvon beach seine under State and/or Common- Exmouth Gulf beach seine wealth jurisdiction- Pilbara coast shoreline net Kimberley coast shoreline net Western rock lobster South coast purse seine, excluding Southern bluefin tuna King George Sound Shark Bay prawn trawl Exmouth Gulf prawn trawl Cape Bouvard to Cape Beaufort purse seine Nickol Bay prawn trawl Metropolitan purse seine- Kimberley prawn trawl Northern prawn trawl excluding Cockburn Sound Abrolhos Islands scallop trawl South coast line and trap West coast line Shark Bay scallop trawl Abalone fisherfies-3 zones North West Cape line and trap North-west scampi and deep Pilbara line and trap water prawn trawl Lake Argyle catfish gill net South coast and bight trawl Kimberley coast mud crab Swan-Canning Estuary Specimen shell collecting Mandurah Estuary (2) 1 would be happy to supply the mem- Leschenault Estuary ber with a copy of the amateur fishery Hardy Inlet rule book which covers all restrictions, South Coast Estuaries etc., for amateur fishermen. Shark Bay beach seine and mesh net FISHERIES DEPARTMENT Cockburn Sound South coast herring trap Inspectors South coast salmon beach seine 1918. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for South-west coast salmon beach Fisheries: seine (1) Would he detail the total available Albany wharf lift net number of Department of Fisheries Esperance wharf lift net -- inispectors, and their base of oper- King Sound trochus ations, in each year since 1982? Mandurah beam tide (2) Of this number, how many have been Mandurah prawn trawl involved mainly in- Pearl oyster collection (a) sea; (b) Proposed limited entry fisheries- (b) estuary; Shark Bay snapper (c) river and dam, South coast shark surveillance over the above period? 4946 4946[ASSEMBLY]

(3) During the same period, would he de- AGRICULTURE tail the total number of licences Plan: Variety Rights: introduction granted to professional Fishermen for each year? 1919. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for Agriculture: Mr GRILL replied: (1) What is the Government's policy on (I)(a) 1982 and 1983-62 the possible introduction of plant var- 1984-67 iety rights into Australia? 1985-69 (2) What has been the response of the 1986-71 State Government when the plant var- iety rights subject has been discussed In all years the figures included six at Agricultural Council meetings? trainee fisheries officers. (3) Would he make available the Western In l982and 1983 the figures included Australian position paper to Agricul- four Australian fishing zone officers. tural Council on plant variety rights? In 1984, 1985. and 1986 the figures Mr GRILL replied: included six Australian fishing zone and two tuna officers. (1) The Government does not oppose the legislation (b) Broome, Carnarvon, Denhanm, Geraldton, Dongara, Jurien, (2) The State has opposed PVR for broad Cervantes, Lancelin. metropoli- acre crops and pastures for which tan area, Fremantle, Mandurah, there are major breeding programmes Bunbury. Albany. Esperance since in Australia. 1985. Busselton since 1985, Port (3) This Government has not submitted a Hedland since 1984. During the position paper on this matter to Agri- rock lobster season, also Ledge cultural Council. Point, Leschenault, Kalbarri, and Rottnest Island. WILDLIFE (2) The deployment of fisheries officers in relation ito the specific duties in each Kangaroo Leather Exports of the ten years since 1982 could not 192 1. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for be obtained without considerable re- Agriculture: search. However, in general. the allo- (1) Is he aware that a campaign by cation of the primar role of duties to Greenpeace has been reported as be- the number of officers involved would ing successful in having stopped eight be- major British sports shoemakers using Seagoing-eleven officers kangaroo leather in the United King- dom? Inland-rivers and dams-two officers (2) Does the Government intend to act to counter this publicity and, if so, would Australian fishing zone-six he detail? officers (3) If not, why not? Southern bluefin tuna manage- ment-two off icers (4) In the event of Australia, including Western Australia, losing the oppor- Administration-management- tunity to sell kangaroo skins out of four officers Australia, what alternative methods of The remainder of the officers are kangaroo management is his Govern- involved in the whole array of en- ment considering? forcement-management activities. Mr GRILL replied: (3) 1982-4 124 This question has wrongly been 1983-4 438 addressed to the Minister for 1984-4 830 Agriculture. It has been referred to the Minister for Conservation and Land 198 5-4 693 Management, and he will answer the 1986-4 637 question in writing. [Wednesday, 26 November 19861 444947

TECHNICAL AND FURTHER (2) How many schools were fitted with EDUCATION silent electronic alarm systems in the following years- Safety Qlflkers (a) 1983-84; 1929. Mr WILLIAMS. to the Minister for Education: (b) 1984-85; As under the present Act, if an acci- (c) 1985-86; dent occurs in a technical and further (d) 1986-87 to date? education college, the Minister him- (3) How many schools will be fitted with self is held responsible, what provision silent electronic alarm systems in the is currently being made to provide remaining period of 1986-87? technical and further education col- (4) What is the total cost of installing a leges with hours for allocation to silent electronic alarm system in a specifically cater for safety officers, school? which were previously obtainable and have been removed under the new ar- Mr PEARCE replied: rangement? (1) Metropolitan south-east region-30 Mr PEARCE replied: Metropolitan south-west region-22 While ultimate responsibility rests Metropolitan north-east region-34 with the Minister for Education, the Metropolitan north-west region-I 7 maintenance of a safe working en- Country south-west region-4 vironment at college level is both an individual and group responsibility Geraldton region-4 for all participants, such as lecturers, Goldfields region-[10 students, and administrators. While Kimberley region-I the Minister for Education makes ar- rangements through panties external to (2) The following figures are related to the college to provide safe buildings systems which were brought on line on and equipment, the safe utilisation of or prior to 30 June of the particular them is the responsibility of those in financial year. direct contact. (a) 1983-84 4; The principal of a college may (b) 1984-85 3 1 nominate one or more members of the (c) 1985-86 46; college staff to assist in monitoring (d) 1986-87 13. safe practices and identifying any problems that may arise. (3) 20. (4) Primary school, between $6 000 and Sufficient flexibility remains, under $12 000; Secondary schools and tech- recently revised staffing arrangements, nical colleges, $20 000 to $30 for TAFE colleges, within the total 000. complement of non-teaching staff WA EXIM CORPORATION hours available in every college, to al- low principals to continue current Overseas Representatives practices. 1931. Mr COURT, to the Minister co- ordinating Economic and Social Development: EDUCATION (1) How many representatives has Exim Schools: Electronic Alarm Svstems Corporation appointed in overseas 1930. Mr CASH, to the Minister for countries? Education: (2) In what countries are these representa- (1) Referring to his answer to question tives based? 1686 of 1986 concerning vandalism in Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: schools, how many schools are fitted (1) Seven. with silent electronic alarm systems in (2) Hong Kong, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, each of their Education Department United Kingdom, Norway, West regions? Germany, and Greece. 4948 4948[ASSEMBLY]

COMMUNITY SERVICES (3) If yes to (2), is he still able to assure the House that the cost of fringe ben- Custodyi Cases: Funding efits tax will not be passed on to parents? 1932. Mr BRADSHAW, to the Minister representing the Minister for Community Mr PEARCE replied: Services: (1) The opinion of the Country High (1) What is the Minister's policy in re- School Hostels Authority has been spect of providing funds to enable a sought in responses to various preced- mother and her dependent children to ing parliamentary questions on this leave this State without notifying the matter, refer parliamentary questions father of the children? 1262 and 1424. The office of the auth- ority is in constant liaison with local (2) Under what circumstances would such hostel boards to ensure that the pay- funds be provided? ment of the fringe benefits tax will not (3) Is there a specific directive or depart- impose an unnecessary burden on in- mental instruction in respect of this dividual hostels. The increase of the matter, and if so will he advise me of tsolation allowance from 40 to 50 per the details of the departmental direc- cent will further reduce the hostels' tive on policy? taxation liability. (2) Further opinion may be sought if felt Mr WILSON replied: necessary. (1) Each individual case is assessed on its (3) 1 reiterate the comments of an earlier own merit. Financial assistance may date that fringe benefits tax will be be made available to either parent absorbed in the overall running costs whose safety is at risk if they remain of hostels, which averages out at less in their present domestic circum- than 1.5 percent of total expenditure. stances. (2) Funds for transfers out of this State require the specific authority of the ENERGY Minister and would only be given in Gas Pipeline:Dampier-Carnarvon life-threatening circumstances. No parent with dependent children has 1940. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for been assisted to leave the State since Minerals and Energy: 1979. (1) What stage has the project to pipe gas (3) Yes, a copy of the departmental pro- from the Dampier-Perth natural gas cedural instructions will be Provided. pipeline into Camnarvon now reached? (2) Have the necessary funds to complete EDUCATION: HOSTELS the project been allowed for in the State Energy Commission budget for Fringe Benefits Tax: Painent 1986-87? 1936. Mr COWAN, to the Minister for (3) When is the project now due to be Education: completed? (1) Further to question 1424 of 19,36 re- Mr PARKER replied: lating to the cost of fringe benefits tax (1) Design work is almost complete. Line to country high school hostels, has he pipe has been delivered and coating at written to either the hostels or the the Geraldton coating plant is almost Country High School Hostels Auth- complete. The construction tender ority seeking their opinion about the document is being prepared. hostels' capacity to absorb the fringe benefits tax? (2) Yes. (2) If no. does he intend to? (3) December 1987. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986J]94 4949

PIGMENT FACTORY (AUSTRALIND) (3) Is the Western Australian Develop- AGREEMENT BILL ment Corporation in any way Properties Involved involved in the preparation of that feasibility study? 1941. Mr BRADSHAW, to the Minister for Minerals and Energy: (4) If so, what is the nature of that in- volvement? (1) With respect to the Pigment Factory (Australind) Agreement Bill 1986, (5) If the Western Australian Develop- how many properties are in the area ment Corporation is not involved in surrounded by the dark border in plan the preparation of this feasibility A? study, has it been, or is it, involved in any other studies being made of the (2) Who are the owners of these proper- Noalimba Centre? ties? (6) If so, what is the nature of these (3) Have these owners been consulted in any way? studies? Mr WILSON replied: (4) If no to (3), why not? Mr PARKER replied: (1) Western Australian Development Corporation. (1) 6. (2) The terms of reference are being de- (2) Leschenault Loc 3 1-LDA veloped and will have two Leschenault Loc 31 Portion 4-SCM components- Chemicals Ltd. (i) the disposal or recycling of the Leschenault Loc 31 Portion I- Noalimba facility; Bunbury Golf Club. (i i) the feasibility of providing self- Reserve 38393-Conservation of sustaining accommodation for flora and fauna, vested in Western sportspeople in association with Australian National Parks and Nature the Western Australian Sports Conservation Authority. Centre. Reserve 33247-Public recreation. (3) Yes. not vested. (4) As in (2) above. Leschenault Loc 19-M. F. H-ough and P. W. Hough and the Australia (5) and (6) Not applicable. and New Zealand Banking Group as mortgagee. SPORT AND RECREATION CAMP (3) No. Noalimba: Fees (4) The Pigment Factory (Australind) 1941. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for Agreement Bill does not prejudice cur- Sport and Recreation: rent land usage. The land owners will have an opportunity to respond to the (1) Has the examination of the proposal project's ERMP if they consider there referred to in question 1500 of 1986, is an impact. concerning the increase in fees for the use of Noalimba Centre, now been completed by Treasury? HOUSI NG (2) If so, will the fees now increase as Self-sustaining: Noalinba Site from I January 1987? 1946. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for (3) If so, what will be the nature of that Sport and Recreation: increase? (1) Who is carrying out the feasibility Mr WILSON replied: study referred to in question 1427 of 1986? (1) The matter is still with the budget (2) What are the terms of reference for management committee. that feasibility study? (2) and (3) Not applicable. 4950 4950[ASSEMBLY]

TECHNI[CAL AN D FU RTH ER WESTERN AUSTRALIAN MINING AND EDUCATION PETROLEUM RESEARCH INSTITUTE Fees: Increase Solar Energy Research: Funding 1950. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for 1956. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for Education: Minerals and Energy: (1) Will he list for me the zechn.2a1 school (1) How much funding has been allocated fees which have increased since 1 July to Western Australian Mining and 1986? Petroleum Research Institute to sup- (2) What further increases in these fees port solar energy research and devel- are expected to be made between now opment projects in 1987? and 3O June 1987? (2) Will Western Australian Mining and Mr PEARCE replied: Petroleum Research Institute retain (1) Fees for non-vocational adult edu- any significant commitment to solar cation courses will be increased as research and development after 1987? from I January 1987 from $2.20 per (3) Will Western Australian Mining and hour to $2.50 per hour for Cull fee pay- Petroleum Research Institute's terms ing students, and the current category of reference be altered to extend its of non-fee paying students will be obligations to Solar research and de- charged a fee of $1 per hour up to a velopment? Maximum Of$ S5per subject per term. (4) Who will carry out the testing of new There are no course fees for accredited solar appliances once the Solar Energy vocational certificate and diploma Research Institute of Western courses. Australia test facility at Bentley is (2) None. closed? (5) Who will perform the information and public advice function of Solar Energy STATE ENERGY COMMISSION Research Institute of Western Employvees: Wvndharn Australia with regard to solar ap- 1953. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for pliances? Minerals and Energy: Mr PARKER replied: (1) How many State Energy Commission (1) Sufficient funding to finance the con- employees currently reside in tinuing research projects of SERIWA Wyndham? will be allocated to WAMPRI, plus (2) How many State Energy Commission some funding for new projects under employees currently reside in consideration. Kununurra? (2) Yes. (3) Are there any plans to reduce Or in- (3) Yes. crease the numbers of these employees resident in either town? (4) The private sector. (4) If so, what are those plans? (5) The energy research and energy advis- ory area of the SEC. (5) Why are those changes being made? Mr PARKER replied: MINERAL: IRON ORE (I) Twelve, two in electricity supply, 10 in Power stations group. Robe River: Special Inspectors (2) Twenty, six in electricity supply, 14 in 1957- Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for power stations group. Minerals and Energy: (3) It is intended to transfer the two elec- (1) Who is currently carrying out the re- tricity supply personnel from view referred to in his answer to ques- Wyndham to Kununurra early in tion 1585 of 29 October concerning 1987. special inspections? (4) See (3). (2) When will that review be completed? (5) For the efficient utilisation of the Mr PARKER replied: commission's labour resources. (1) and (2)1 am reviewing this matter. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986) 454951

EDUCATION Mr PEARCE replied: Tertiary: Staff (1) (a) $25 000; 1960. Mr COWAN. to the Minister for (b) $20 000; Education: (c) $56 000; (1) How many staff are employed, on (d) $31 345. either a Cull-time or pani-time basis. at- (2) At this time institutions have not en- rolled students. Offers will have been (a) University of Western Australia; made, but no statistics on acceptances (b) Murdoch University; are available. (c) Western Australian Institute of (3) An Australia-wide education mission Technology: is now visiting South-East Asian (d) Western Australian College of countries to assess the market Advanced Education, potential for Australia. Western with duties of or similar to public re- Australian representatives are with lations officers? this mission. It is anticipated its re- sults will be available early in 1987. used in (2) What are the criteria to be (4) It assessing the success or failure of such is probable that Indonesia, appointments? Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore will be among the countries from Mr PEARCE replied: which most students will be enrolled. (I) (a) 4; (b) 1-.5as from J January 1984; HOUSING UNITS (c) I; Bunbury Electorate (d) nil. 1962. Mr P. J. SMITH, to the Minister for (2) Assessed performance in relation to Housing: duties specified on their duty (1) How many of each type of housing statements. units were built or bought by Homeswest in each of the Shires of EDUCATION Capel, Dardanup, and Bunbury, and Tertiary: Overseas Students the locality of Australind for the financial years- 1961. Mr COWAN. to the Minister for Education: (a) 1981-82; (1) What expense has been incurred by- (b) 1982-83; (a) University of Western Australia; (c) 1983-84; (b) Murdoch University;, (d) 1984-85; (c) Western Australian Institute of (e) 1985-86; Technology; MI 1986-87-Panned? (d) Western Australian College of (2) What was the total value of the build- Advanced Education, ing or buying programme in the above in attempting to procure full fee pay- local government areas for the ing students from South-East Asia? financial years- (2) How many full fee paying students (a) 1981-82; from South-East Asia has each of, the (b,) 1982-83; institutions enrolled for- 1987? (c) 1983-84; (3) What is the latest assessment of the (d) 1984-85; market potential for western (e) 1985-86; Australian tertiary institutions in South-East Asia? (f) 1986-87? (4) Which South-East Asian Countries are Mr WILSON replied: considered to be the major sources of I will provide a written response to full fee paying students for Western the member on the information Australian tertiary institutions? requested. 4952 4952[ASSEM BLY)

EDUCATION: STUDENTS present arrangements by which pri- Secondary"1 Allowance Scberne: Changes vate health funds pay benefits for prosthetic implants? 1963. Mr GRAYDEN. to the Minister for Education: Mr TAYLOR replied: In view of the impact which the Discussions are proceeding, and the proposed changes to the secondary al- member will be advised when those lowance scheme will have on students have been completed. The desirable who are in receipt of this allowance, aim is to have a common list of ben- what are the details of the action efits for prosthetic implants in all which the State Government intends States. to take in order to offset the adverse effects of the proposed changes? TECHNICAL AND FURTHER Mr PEARCE replied: EDUCATION The Government is providing the fol- lowing assistance for needy secondary Fees: Representations school students- 1965. Mr GRAYDEN, to the Minister for (I School book assistance-ad- Education: ditional assistance scheme 1987 (1) Were representations made to him by The Government will provide the Wednesday Laurel Club of Perth $125 to each eligible student in Legacy on behalf of 200 members of years 8 to 12, to assist in meeting Laurel Clubs of Perth Legacy who at- the costs of education. However, tend craft classes at Legacy House, because of the higher costs in year South Perth, in respect of the intro- I I compared to year 12, the duction of a new charge of $15 per cumulative sum of $250 available term? for years I I and 12 will be disbursed on the basis of $180 in (2) If so, what was the outcome of the year I I and $70 in year 12. For representations? 1987 only, year 12 students will Mr PEARCE replied: receive $125 since no subsidy was available when those students (1) Yes, in a letter from the secretary were in year 11. dated 3 November 1986. The eligibility criteria relates to (2) The reason for introducing the charge the Commonwealth social secur- was explained in a written reply dated ity benefits. 14 November 1986. (2) Clothing allowance The Government will be provid- ENVIRONMENT ing $72 per annum for each eli- gible student in years 8, 9, and 10 Old Mill: Future to assist parents in meeting costs 1966. Mr GRAYDEN, to the Minister for of clothing. Planning: The eligibility Criteria is met if the parents are holders of a Com- in view of the fact that Bristile Lim- monwealth health card. ited apparently intends, in the near fu- ture, to relinquish trusteeship of the Old Mill, South Perth, and chat the HEALTH INSURANCE BENEFITS South Perth City Council has resolved Prostheses that it would be prepared to adminis- ter and maintain the building only if 1964. Mr GRAYDEN, to the Minister for all costs were to be recouped from the Health: authority that assumes responsibility What is te current position in respect for the Old Mill, is he in a position to of his discussions with the Common- advise what the current situation is in wealth Minister for Health apropos respect of the building and also its the anomalies and inconsistencies in likely future? [Wednesday, 26 November 1986) 454953

Mr PEARCE replied: (3) In what way have the allocated funds This same question was raised in Par- been spent? liament last week by Hon. Phillip Mr PEARCE replied: Pendal, and I would refer the member (1) Yes. to the response given on the matter by the Minister for Community Services. (2) 1982-$174 000 As indicated in the Minister's re- 1983-$ 240 000 sponse, the future management re- 1984-S$108 000 sponsibility for the Old Mill is an issue 1985-$179 200 which needs to be negotiated together 1986-S$135 000 with the source of funds for mainten- ance costs associated with the site. Calendar year allocations The Department of Conservation and (3) (a) staff Land Management holds the vesting (b) equipment for homesteads and of the land on which the Old Mill is schools of the air-VCR's and located, and has over a period of time monitors; been meeting costs connected with its equipment for recording and maintenance. The site is therefore be- (c) ing properly managed, and there need duplicating; be no concern that the Old Mill's fu- (d) video tapes; ture is under threat. (e) freight and postage; While Bristile had previously (f) purchase of rights to duplicate indicated a desire to relinquish its role video tapes; as the lessee and manager of the Old Mill, I understand from the Depart- (g) production of videos; ment of Conservation and Land Man- (h) travel and accommodation. agement that this may in fact not take place and the company may be pre- pared to continue in the role. Dis- HEALTH: HOSPITAL cussions are currently in train between Princess Margaret:Spina Rifle/a Programme the two parties. 1968. Mr BRA DSHAW, to the Minister for Should it prove necessary, however, I Health: am prepared to have possible alterna- tive management arrangements (1) Will rehabilitation programmes for investigated. I foresee that such handicapped children in particular alternatives would need to be con- spina bifida children be affected at sidered in the context of the broader Princess Margaret Hospital as a result question of the management of his- of recent Government cutbacks? toric properties bequested to the State, (2) Will the rehabilitation programmes a question which will be addressed in for spina bifida children at Princess connection with the heritage Bill the Margaret Hospital continue? Government intends to introduce in 1987. (3) If yes to (2)- (a) under Government funding or EDUCATION other funding; (b) Distance: 'Loan lideoPfrogramme what programmes will continue, -and will'they be exp and'ed? 1967. Mr STEPHENS, to the Minister for Education: Mr TAYLOR replied: (1) Is he aware of a scheme called the loan (1) No. video programme for remote schools (2) Existing Government-funded rehabili- and school of the air studies? tation programmes for handicapped (2) Since the inception of the scheme, children at Princess Margaret Hospital what has been the yearly allocation in will continue. Western Australia? (3) Answered by (2). 4954 4954[ASSEMBLY]

WA MINT HEALTH Nugget Coins: Advertising Campaign Genetically Engineered Organisms; Hazards 1970. M r LIGHT FOOT, to the Treasurer: 1973. Mr CASH, to the Minister for (1) Would he please say what company Industrial Relations: handled the national advertising for (1) Is he or the Department of the launch and the peripheral arrange- Occupational Health, Safety and Wel- ments for the Australian Nugget fare aware of any hazards associated coins?f with the handling of Escherichia co/i (2) Was the invitation extended to all when being used as a host for prominent media advertisers? genetically engineered material in Western Australia? (3) What was the cost of the advertising referred to in (1)? (2) If yes, will he give details? (4) Has any further advertising been Mr PETER DOWDING replied: placed? (1) Yet, (5) If yes to (4). to whom has that adver- tising been allocated? (2) According to the Health Department, there may be a hazard depending on Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: what is being carried out. (1) 1 understand from public statements that two agencies in Australia have GOVERNMENT CHEMICAL been appointed to conduct advertising and public relations campaigns for the LABORATORIES Australian Nugget gold bullion coin Ventilation System programme. 1974. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Minerals McCann-Erickson Perth has been and Energy: commissioned by GoldCorp Australia to undertake the national advertising (1) Referring to his answer to questions for the programme. The public re- 126 and 300 of 1986, has the construc- lations brief was awarded to lion of the new ventilation system Dougherty Communications, which is at the Government Chemical a pan of the Ogilvy & Mather Group. Laboratories been completed? (2) Fourteen of Adstralia's leading adver- (2) If yes, what was the total cost of this tising agencies were invited to tender system? for the advertising agency functions for the Australian Nugget programme. (3) If no to (1), when will the construction of this system be completed, and what (3) to (5) The Australian Nugget pro- is the estimated total cost of this gramme is a major international com- system? mercial undertaking by GoldCorp Australia in association with the (4) When will the construction of Mineral Australian Government. As such, the House, stage 2 be completed? programme is expected to generate Mr PARKER replied: sufficient international sales revenue to Finance all costs associated with (1) No. production, minting, marketing. ad- vertising. and promotion, and to gen- (2) Not applicable. erate a commercial return to (3) Stage 1 of the construction of the ven- GoldCorp Australia. The marketing tilation system has been completed, budget for the Australian Nugget pro- and stage 2 is expected to be gramme is commercially confidential completed by February 1987. information to GoldCorp Australia, likc that of its competitors in the (4) The contractor's current building pro- Canadian Maple Leaf. the US Eagle, gramme has a completion date of 7 and the South African Krugerrand. May 1987. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986J]95 4955

TECHNICAL AND FURTHER DAIRYING EDUCATION Milk Bottles: Abolition Forrestfield: Courses 1979. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for 1976. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for Agriculture: Education: (1) Was he required to approve the de- (1) Have any decisions yet been made cision made by local dairies to discon- with respect to what changes will be tinue the production of milk in made to course programmes at bottles? Forrestfaeld Technical College for the (2) If so, when was that approval given? 1987 academic year? (3) Do the dairies need his approval (2) If so, what are these changes? should they wish to resume the pro- duction of milk in bottles? (3) If no decision has yet been made, when is it likely this will be forth- Mr GRILL replied: coming? (1) and (2) No. Mr PEARCE replied: (3) No. (1) Yes. (2) Classes in the formal art studies dip- MOTOR VEHICLES loma course at several locations will be made more viable and cost effec- Government: Allocations tive by reducing the number of small 1980. Mr MacKINNON, to the Premier: classes allowed to start in each lo- cation. The same number of student (1) To which Government agency are the places will be available in 1987 as following motor vehicles allocated- in 1986. (a) Commodore 6QD-323; (3) Not applicable. (b) Sigma 6QJ-172? (2) Are these motor vehicles authorised to ENVIRONMENT be used for private purposes? Tree Planting Programme: Lake Toolibin (3) If so, what is the basis of that authoris- ation? 1977. Mr MacKINNON. to the Minister for Conservation and Land Management: Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: (1) Have grants been made to any organ- (1) (a) 6QD-323-Holden Commodore isation to assist with a tree planting is allocated to the Mines Depart- programme at Lake Toolibin? ment, mining engineering div- ision; (2) If so. to whom were the grants made, and how much were they? (b) 6Q3-lI 72-Toyota, not Sigma is allocated to the State Energy (3) What work has been carried out as a Commission. --consequence of these grants?- (2) and (3) The motor vehicles arc not Mr [HODGE replied: authorised for private use. However, both are allocated to officers who are This question has been incorrectly on call. If the member has any particu- addressed to the Minister for Conser- lar concerns over the use of these ve- vation and Land Management. It has hicles or any other Government ve- been referred to the Minister for hicles, he should provide details in or- Agriculture, and he will answer the der that the matter might be further question in writing. considered. 4956 4956ASSEMBLY]

EDUCATION: STUDENTS PASTORAL LEASES Primary: Reading Difficulties Australian Land and Catlde Co Lid 1984. Mr HASSELL, to the Minister for 1987, Mr CAURANCE. to the Minister for Education: Lands: (1) What is the average number of West- (1) What is the current position in re- ern Australian primary school lation to the four Australian Land and students per 100 with reading diffi- Cattle Co Limited pastoral properties culties? in the Kimberley region? (2) Is it likely that one of these four (2) What objective data has established properties will be handed over to Ab- these figures? original interests to satisfy the Com- (3) What number of children per 100 with mon wealth requirement in accordance reading difficulties is acceptable to the with the $6 million grant for the Education Department? Emanuel leases? (4) What assistance is being given to (3) If yes to (2). which of the four proper- schools in answer to their requests for ties is being considered for such a assistance for their students with transfer? learning difficulties? Mr TAYLOR replied: (5) Why are some children in Western (1) The properties are being resumed Australian primary schools failing to under section I17 of the Public Works master basic reading skills? Act and section 109 of the Land Act. (6) (a) Are the remedial techniques to (2) and (3) The future of the leases is, of which he referred in his third course, subject to the outcome of the answer to question 1621 known current resumption process, which has to be effective-, the support of the Kimberley pastoral (b) if so, what objective data does he industry. have to establish their effective- ness? ROAD (7) What objective data was used to form Kwinana Freeway: Contra-flo w Bus Lane the basis of the decision to run the 1988. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for early literacy in-service course pro- Transport: gramme in Western Australia, and what objective data does he have to (1) Has the "contra flow" bus lane over demonstrate that the current methods the Narrows Bridge been implemented of teaching reading are effective for all yet? children? (2) If not, why not, and when is it ant ici- Mr PEARCE replied: pated that this innovation will be introduced? (1) to (6) The questions asked by the Mr TROY replied: member for Cottesioe are addressed in the Education Department's dis- (1) and (2) No. The planned introduction cussion paper No. 16. "Weak Readers date for the "contra flow" bus lane is in Primary Schools". A copy is tabled 27 January 1987. for the member's information. The report and its recommendations ROADS have been made available to All Henley-Lockhart Streets Intersection: Letter schools. 1989. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for (7) The early literacy in-service course Transport: seeks to assist teachers to develop (1) Did he receive a letter from Mr J. S. language competence in young chil- Barker of Lockhart Street, Como, on dren. Such competency forms the behalf of residents of that street re- basis for all future learning. garding the Lockhart-Henley Streets (See paper No. 55 7.) intersection? [Wednesday. 26 November 1986J 495795

(2) If yes. what has transpired in this mat- (3) Is the Government considering a pro- ter? posal to relocate any of these M r TROY replied: positions? (I) Yes, a letter was received in my office Mr PEARCE replied: on 19 August. and a reply was despatched in my absence by the Act- (t) Sixty-four salaried and wages person- ing Minister on I1I September. nel. (2) The subject matter related to the clos- ure of certain roads under the control (2) Albany, Bunbury, Broome, Carnar- of the City of South Perth, and Mr von, Derby, Geraldton, Kalgoorlie, Barker was informed that this was es- Karratha, Kununurra, Merredin, sentially a matter for council and the Narrogin, Northam, South Hedland. Minister for Local Government. (3) The Building Management Authority is continuing to review staff require- FREMANTLE PORT AUTHORITY ments according to both workload and client interface in Incomne Lev~y all districts, both country and metropolitan. Where it 1991, Mr LAURANCE. to the Minister for considers necessary, the authority will Transport: transfer staff in accordance with (1) Does the Government charge the assessed need at that time. Fremantle Port Authority a three per cent levy on the authority's income? GRAIN (2) If so. how much did the levy amount to in the 1985-86 financial year? Wheat industry: Delegation (3) (a) Is it not a fact that our port charges are already very high and 1996. Mr COWAN, to the Premier: have contributed to a fall off in the number of ships visiting When will he respond to my sugges- Fremantle; tion of 26 August 1986 for an all-party delegation to go to Canberra to inform (b) if yes, how can the Government the Commonwealth Government of justify charging this levy against the consequences of its taxation and the Fremantle Port Authority? tariff policies on the Western Mr TROY replied: Australian wheat industry? (1) Yes. The three per cent levy is charged in accordance with the Public Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: Authorities (Contributions) Act 1974, The Government has taken every op- which was enacted by the Opposition portunity to raise the matter of when in Government. subsidised grain sales by the USA and (2) $1044975. the EEC, Australia's major competi- (3) (a) No; tors;, and the matter of taxes and tariff policies has also been taken up with (b) not applicable. the Federal Government and at the Economic Planning and Advisory BUILDING MANAGEMENT AUTHORITY Council. -Staff ('ouiiiry Western Australian industry has 1995. Mr COWAN, to the Minister supported and worked with the State representing the Minister for Works and Government in the preparation of Services: submissions to the Federal Govern- ment On these matters. However, (1) How many Building Management should an opportunity arise where an Authority staff are based outside the all-party delegation to Canberra would metropolitan area? be appropriate, I am prepared to (2) Where are they based? further consider that proposition. 4958 4958(ASSEM BLY]

FREMANTLE GAS AND COKE CO LTD (3) Yet to be determined. North- West Shelf Gas (4) The Health Department has not 1997. Mr COWAN. to the Minister for obtained a valuation. Minerals and Energy: (1) Did the State Energy Commission HEALTH: HOSPITAL have a firm contract to supply North- Heat heote: Bequest West Shelf gas to the Fremanitle Gas 2001. Mr COWAN, to the Minister for and Coke Co Ltd? Health: (2) If yes, when was the contract sched- (1) Is he aware of a claim that Heathcote uled to begin? was "'bequeathed for permanent use Mr PARKER replied: caring for the mentally ill" in the (1) No. Daily News of 20 October? (2) Not applicable. (2) Is this claim accurate? Mr TAYLOR replied: ENERGY: GAS (I) Yes. Dongara: Tailings Purchase (2) No. 1998. Mr COWAN, to the Minister for Minerals and Energy: HEALTH: HOSPITAL (1) Does. or did, the State Electricity Heat hcote:-Alternative Use Commission have an option to pur- 2002. Mr COWAN, to the Minister for chase gas tailings from the Wapet Health: Dongara gas field? (I) What input is there from- (2) Does, or did, the State Energy Com- mission have an option to purchase (a) private psychiatrists; the Dongara-Perth gas pipeline? (b) patients; (3) If yes to (1) or (2). when are or were (c) psychiatric nursing staff-, the options to be exercised? into the working party examining the Mr PARKER replied: alternatives to the Heathcote Hospi- (1) to (3) Under the existing contracts tal? with the Dongara gas field producers (2) Can he assure the House that no irre- the State Energy Commission has an versible decision will be made about option to purchase any gas remaining the future of Heathcote until the re- in the field; and as I stated in my reply port of the working party has been to question 1298, confidenitial com- made public? mercial discussions between the par- Mr TAYLOR replied: ties concerning the gas field and the (1) (a) Input from private psychiatrists is pipeline are under way. being invited from the psychiatric services consultative committee, HEALTH: HOSPITAL Fremantle Hospital, and other Heat hcoie: Sale interested groups. 2000. Mr COWAN, to the Minister for (b) The l-eathcote Hospital Execu- Health: tive-i.e. the Psychiatrist Super- intendent, Acting Director of (1) Has Heaihcote Hospital been sold? Nursing, and the Administrator, (2) If no, is it the Government's intention all members of the working to sell it? party-are maintaining a close (3) If yes to (2). by what method? liaison wth patients, relatives, and (4) What is the most recent cash valu- friends. Various patient interest groups are also being consulted. ation of the site? {c) The Acting Director of Mr TAYLOR replied: Psychiatric Nursing, Heathcote (1) No. Hospital, is a member of the (2) Yes. working party. Psychiatric nurs- [Wednesday, 26 November 19861 454959

ing staff at Heathcote have I am not aware of any such figures as formed a committee to consult those to which the member alluded, with the working party. The work- but obviously in the course of ing party is also consulting with preparing the sort of arguments re- the Psychiatric Nurses Associ- ferred to we needed tolook at all the ation. implications of a tax on the industry. (2) A decision to close Heathcote Hospi- Mr MacKinnon: This was a State royalty. tal has been made. The working party Mr PARKER: There is no truth in what will report on the options for closure. the member for Karrinyup has said.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE TOURISM FACILITIES Shannon MINERAL 411. Mr EVANS, to the Minister for Gold'- Roally Conservation and Land Management: 410. Mr CLARKO, to the Minister for (1) For how long have the tourist accom- Minerals and Energy: modation facilities at the old Shannon (1) Did he commission a report from an townsite been completed? officer of the Department of Re- (2) Have any figures for the usage of this sources Development on the imnpo- facility been compiled and, if so, what sition of' a royalty on the gold indus- has been the nightly usage over each of try? the past three months? (2) Is it correct that the report indicated Mr HODGE replied: to the Government that a royalty at (1) and (2) The two overnight shelters for the level suggested would return to the visitors to the Shannon River townsite State in the order of $70 million a recreation facilities have been avail- year? able for public use since the official Mr PARKER replied opening on I May 1986. The shelters were built as an integral part of a (I) and (2) No. The position is that the camping area, which also included Department of Resources Develop- tent sites and an amenities block. ment has been the agency of Govern- Funds for the development were made ment which, under the leadership of available through a CEP project. my colleague the Minister for Agriculture, in his position as chair- The shelters are constructed of weath- man of the Government's goldmining erboard and iron on concrete raft industry policy committee, has floors, and are quite basic in amenity. provided all of the Government input They contain a fireplace, a rough- from a departmental point of view hewn timber double bunk, and a into the various submissions made by rough-hewn timber bench. There is no the Government to Canberra and booking necessary to use the shelters, various inquiries into the goldmining and no fee is charged for their use. industry and the tax that was Figures on usage of the overnight shel- proposed by the Federal Government. ters have been obtained from visitors' It has been very widely acknowledged books installed at each of the shelters Jthat. that submission was, easily- -the in August 1986. The lower hut is_ being best received by the Gutman inquiry used by an average of three people per of the Federal Government, and that night, and the upper hut by an average is in part a tribute to the committee of one person every second night. It is and to my colleague, and in significant anticipated that as word spreads of the part to the work by the Department of availability of these shelters, the Resources Development in providing occupancy rate will increase. the input necessary to devise such a The visitors' books also record many strong argument against the imnpo- favourable comments on the facilities sition of a gold tax- offered. 4960 4960ASSEMBLY]

FUEL FRANCHISE LEVY (2) The outcome of the sale defied all the use criticism that had been levelled at the decisions to raise individual quota 412. Mr LAURANCE. to the Minister for ceilings and enable special milk Transport: products quota to be sold. This his- I refer to his Press statement of 13 toric sale, the first of its type in August 1986 in which he said, "The Australia, saw 4910 litres of market bulk of the money raised from the fuel milk quota and 2 375 litres of special franchise levy will still be spent an milk products quota transferred roads." How does the Minister ex- among dairy farmers. These quantities plain his statement given that only represented about one-third of the $42.5 million out of a total of $90 total offerings of market milk quota million expected to be collected this and around 54 per cent of final total year will be spent on roads? offerings of special milk products Mr TROY replied: quota. As I advised in the answer to the first This question is one which the Oppo- sition can rightfully raise this year. part of the question, the average of the However, the Opposition needs to bids for market milk was $337.27 a take into account the particular litre and $63.73 a litre for special milk financial difficulties which the State products quota. The results on a geo- faces this year. It is the Government's graphical breakdown show that most intention to ensure that the majority of the milk quota shifted from the of these funds go back into roads. Brunswick and Margaret River areas to dairy farmers who supply Boyanup People willingly accept that we were and Coolup dairies. There was also a facing difficult times and that in view transfer of quota into the Albany re- of those circumstances we took the gion. No quota left this region, and an necessary action to adjust the Budget additional 170 litres of market milk accordingly. quota and 90 litres of special milk products quota flowed into the region. DAIRYI NG This is particularly relevant because Milk Quotas: Auction the Albany Chamber of Commerce, among others, had expressed the fear 413. Dr LAWRENCE, to the Minister for that the local dairy industry would be Agriculture: threatened by An open and free market Can he advise me- system. ()The quantities and prices at Mr Blaikie: That was good luck, not goad which market milk products management. quota and special milk products Mr GRILL: I believe it is. quota sold at the milk quota auc- Mr Blaikie: I think the system is excellent. tion at Bunbury yesterday? I do not oppose it. (2) The impact of his controversial Mr GRILL: Similar views expressed by the decision to allow the sale of Manjimup region were unfounded. In special milk products quota? respect of the interjection, I know we Mr GRILL replied: have only seen about two per cent of (1) The quantity of market milk products the quotas transferred, and therefore quota offered for sale was 14 61 5 we can say the question of where they litres, and the quantity sold was 4 910 will go geographically is still open. litres. The average price was 3336. 33. The sale which took place yesterday and the percentage of offering sold confirms the general trend which, over was 33.59 per cent. In relation to the the years, has been southward. All special milk products quota, the quan- things being equal, I expect we will tity offered was 4 392 litres, and 2 375 continue to see the trend of the market litres were sold. The average price was milk quota southward. History will $63.73. and 54.07 per cent of the tell, but that has been the situation to offering was sold. date. My decision to allow the in- [Wednesday. 26 November 1986J196 4961

elusion of SMPQ and raise the limits buy milk in bottles. If that is the case, on quota holdings has been marked by they should allow their views to be extensive criticism in the lead-up to expressed in the marketplace. ibis auction. I believe my decision has (2) In line with the Government's philos- now been vindicated. ophy to allow the market to operate as It was evident also that many smaller freely as possible, to get rid of red quota holders in the lower south-west tape, and to allow competition in the and south coast dairying area are con- market, I believe we would probably fident about their future in the dairy- look with sympathy at any application ins industr. I believe that those by a bottler who wanted to provide changes which have freed up the sales milk in bottles. of quota will be an important long- term benefit to the dairy industry, AMERICA'S CUP which will be able to react more to market conditions and threats posed Visitors from the Eastern States and overseas. 415. Mr READ, to the Minister for Tourism: Is it true that there has been a signii- DAIRYING cant increase in visitors to Western Milk Bottles: Abolition Australia in the lead-up to the America's Cup? 414. Mr BLAIKIE. to the Minister for Mrs BEGGS replied: Agriculture: I am absolutely delighted to inform (1) With the decision by the Government the member for Mandurah that the re- to allow milk companies to stop pro- search conducted by the Western duction of bottled milk, what regard Australia Tourism Commission has has the Government had for- shown sharp rises in all forms of ar- (a) The possible loss of milk sales rivals in October 1986 compared with generally; October last year. (b) the loss of sales by milk vendors The international air arrivals in to the advantage of supermarkets; October were 34 000 compared with and . 27 000 in October last year-an in- (c) the regard for public demand for crease of 26 per cent. Domestic air milk in bottles? arrivals were up by 19.5 per cent, road arrivals were up by 14 per cent, and (2) Would the Government consider rail arrivals were up by 11.2 per cent. licensing any approved dairy company that undertook to provide milk in Things are looking very positive for bottles for public consumption? the final week of the elimination series in the America's Cup challenge. One Mr GRILL replied: of the challenges for the commission (1) The Government did not allow this over the America's Cup has been to particular change in the marketing of achieve a spread of visitors to Western milk to take place. The Government Australia over the five months and not has no control in this area, and nor just over the last couple of weeks. Re- should it have control. We are a search has shown that this is Government that by and large endleav- happening. The number of visitors to ours to get rid of regulations and red Perth increased significantly in tape to allow the market to operate October, and that means a lot of tour- freely. In that respect the member is ist dollars were spent in Western slightly mistaken because the Govern- Australia. ment has not allowed it to take place. It has always been anticipated that a The market should be allowed to large percentage of visitors to Perth operate as freely as it can. For some would stay with family and friends time we have seen a drift away from rather than in hotels or rented accom- the marketing of milk in bottles. I modation. For this reason, the avail- know that some members of the pub- ability of hotel accommodation was lie still profess a propensity to want to not a true indicator of the number of

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visitors to Western Australia. A better Monday. The general thrust of the idea of the number of visitors could be proposal will be essentially to provide shown in increases in consumption of the cheapest possible means of food and drink. The commission's re- transport for grain from the farm to search and planning division is moni- the port. It does take into account the toring this type of consumption. negotiations which took place between One of the things we have been con- Co-operative Bulk Handling Ltd and scious of is the Los Angeles syndrome, Westrail. and it will take into account and reports about a shortage of com- also the difficulties experienced by mercial accommodation over the cup tong-haul grain producers. period have been particularly damag- Last year my predecessor attempted to ing in the Eastern States. People address the difficulty confronting coming to Perth over the next few long-haul grain producers. The pro- months have been assured through the posal he put forward was rejected by Holiday WA Centres that good. medium and short-haul producers. It reasonably priced accommodation is was a very unfortunate outcome, and I available. realise that the member for Merredin We recognised right from the start raised that question about a week ago. that the cup simply provided us with a tremendous opportunity to promote Mr Cowan: It was rejected by the Western Australia and Perth as a de- Premier's policy secretariat, the PIA, sirable holiday destination. The real and the PGA. It was not rejected by a challenge is to build on the tourism group of people who represented dis- base provided by the cup defence. tricts or areas. Statistics indicate that we have Mr TROY: That rejection aside, the achieved a very good increase in visi- Government is attempting to address tors so far; that the cup defence will be the problem which has been long- a tourism success; and that we will standing in those fringe areas. We achieve the favourable exposure have looked at this matter closely; and needed to give tourism the boost in with some cooperation from the rural the longer term. and transport industries the problem can be largely overcome. GRAIN FREIGHT RATES Decision BRICKWORKS PROPOSAL 416. Mr COWAN. to the Minister for Transport: Government Support (1) Has the Minister made a decision on 417. Mr RUSHTON, to the Minister for the 1986-87 grain freight charges? Agriculture: (2) If yes, can he indicate to the House what offer has been made to the grain (1) Did the Minister authorise any mem- freight steering committee? I will ex- ber of his staff to tell a brickmaker, pect that information to be in general other than Mr Peter Ellett, that his terms and not in specific terms. proposal for a new brickworks would (3) Will the offer require Cabinet ap- be supported by the Government? proval? (2) If no, is the Minister aware of alle- (4) As grain deliveries have already gations that a member of his staff told commenced in some areas and the that brickmaker that the Government first advance from which the freight would support his proposal if he did charges are deducted is imminent, not give evidence before either Select does the Minister understand the ur- Committee into the sale of the Mid- gency of the need for such a decision? land abattoir? Mr TROY replied: Mr GRILL replied: (1) to (4) Certainly I understand the ur- gency of it. and it is my intention to (I) and (2) No, I am not aware of either of place a proposal before Cabinet next those allegations. [Wednesday, 26 November 1986] 464963

SPORT AND RECREATION CAMP their parliamentary representatives Noafimba: Closure will be asked to make an input into the feasibility study. 418. Mr HOUSE. to the Minister for Sport All reasonable options will be con- and Recreation: sidered, including the partial redevel- (1) Why has the Government decided to opment of Noalimba or the establish- close the Noaliniba Centre from April ment of a modern, self-sustaining ac- 1987? commodation unit near the new West-, (2) Before the decision was announced, ern Australian Sports Centre. Efforts what consultation took place with are being made to ensure thit country country organisations which use organisations and other user groups Noalimba? are fully aware of the alternative De- partment for Sport and Recreation fa- Mr WILSON replied: cilities available in the metropolitan ()The closure of the Noalimba Centre in area, Of course, as the member has its current form follows a period of probably been made aware, the other two years during which the Govern- camps include the Point Walter con- ment has provided a service not pre- ferenee centre, which was recently viously available. Although there has, redeveloped at a cost of$ 1.8 million. been some increase in usage, the over- all occupancy rate is still very low, WA MINT about 30 per cent. Under these con- ditions the centre is losing almost Nugget Coins: Gold Source $800 000 a year. 419. Mr THOMAS, to the Premier: The facilities provided at Noalimba (1) Is the Premier aware of allegations represent a late 1 950s concept which made by the member for Murchison- limits the centre's potential. Attempts Eyre that South African gold is being to interest private enterprise in used to mint Western Australian operating the centre have met with no coins? success. Developments in other parts (2) If so, are those allegations true? of the world demonstrate the need to Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: provide more modern facilities, if such facilities are to be run on a self- (1) The allegation by the member for sustaining basis and are to be fully Murchison-Eyre is that South African utilised. gold or Soviet gold, he also says, is being used to mint the Australian (2) The groups affected by the closure of Nugget series of gold coins. Noalimba have been advised and (2) This member makes offered assistance to relocate to other a practice of try- ing to tarnish his own State's and departmental facilities in the metro- nation's politan area. reputation overseas; and it is another instance of his willingness for As previously announced, the feasi- political purposes to do anything, re- bility study being undertaken by the gardless of the damage it might cause Western Australian Development to a programme such as the gold Nug- Corporation, in respect of the long- get programme, which is of national term future needs of the community significance. in this regard, is providing an ideal As far as l can understand the claim, it opportunity for country organisations is that because Africans collect alluvial and others to-make their accommno- gold or because they might collect al- dation requirements known. luvial gold somewhere in South Africa The study will take full account of the. and take it to Zimbabwe, and because needs of user groups, including those we have a contract to refine gold for from the country, and the letters from Zimbabwe, and because this alluvial interested parties are being passed to gold might be included in the gold we those conducting the feasibility study. refine for Zimbabwe, then that gold The groups which have expressed an might be used to mint gold coins for interest through letters or through the Nugget programme. Despite the 4964 4964[ASSEM BLY]

fact that we return any gold we refine, Several members interjected. and that the gold being used to mint coins in the gold coin programme is Mr Lightfoot: Why don't you just say that being purchased from the Reserve only gold mined in Australia will be Dank, this member still wants to make used in the coins. It's as simple as that. outlandish and untrue claims. He then You don't have to stand up there even wants to say in addition to the claim in your atrophied form and tell these that it might be South African gold. lies. that because there might be some Soviet gold in the Zimbabwe gold, we Withdrawal ofRemark might be using Communist gold to mint the coins. The SPEAKER: Order! The member knows that he cannot say that. Several members interjected. Mr Lighitfoot: I withdraw. Mr BRIAN BURKE: What is the matter with the member? It is no good the member shouting-, he should not have Questions without Notice Resumed said it to start with. Mr BRIAN BURKE: It is no good getting Mr Lightfoot: I do not retract it. To clear angry. It is even worse to try to the controversy, just say that only gold undermine a national programme of mined in Australia will be used in the the importance of this gold coin pro- coins. It is as simple as that. gramme. It is one thing to undermine Mr BRIAN BURKE: As I have indicated, farmers. we are using gold purchased from the Reserve Bank: and the claim by the Mr Lightfoot: You must make sure that member for Murchison-Eyre is that only Australian gold is used in our because. when we refine the gold we coins. cannot tell which gold is which, and Mr BRIAN BURKE: It is hard to answer although we return to Zimbabwe the questions, Mr Speaker. amount of gold it sent for refining. because the gold might have been Mr Lightfoot: You have been going on long substituted, it is South African gold. enough now. Mr Lightfoot: That is possible. Mr BRIAN BURKE: I think I anm probably Mr BRIAN BURKE: It might be possible going on too long for the member for but it is a nonsense. Murchison-Eyre. Mr Lightfoot: If it is a nonsense to you, it It is one thing to help the commies by is not to me. giving them cheap wheat and then to attack the fact that their gold is being Mr BRIAN BURKE: That is true. If be- refined. Even though the member is cause it was nonsense to the member wrong he should show some consist- for Murchison-Eyre it was a nonsense ency. to me, I would resign. A Government member: Show some intel- Mr Lightfoot: That might not be a bad idea- either. ligence. Mr BRIAN BURKE: The member has ad- Mr BRIAN BURKE: The member should mitted that because we cannot tell the not ask the member for Murchison- difference between gold when it is be- Eyre to show intelligence. ing refined, although we return the en- The member for Murchison-Eyre tire assignment to Zimbabwe, because should be consistent in his support for gold is anonymous in a refined state. this nation. This gold coin programme somehow or other it is Russian gold. is a flagship being looked at by the rest What is the matter with the member of the world, and the Canadians are for Murchison-Eyre? He is damaging not above taking the member's silly the industry that provides a great deal comments and saying, "Here is a of the wealth in his own electorate. member of Parliament in Western The Cold Producers Association does Australia and he says South African not think very much of his effonts. gold is being used to mint those coins [Wednesday, 26 November 1986] 4965 and, as a result people should buy the Mr Lightfoot: Don't be so childish. You Canadian Maple Leaf and undermine are carrying on with a lot of rubbish. the Australian programme." We could All you have to do is make a commit- put our hands in the air and say that ment to use only Australian gold. the member for Murchison-Eyre is a Mr BRIAN BURKE: I am trying to tell the ding-dong and that they should not member that it is a competitive world take any notice of him; but over there, and the Maple Leaf programme is where they do not know who the under severe threat by the emergence member is and the sorts of things he of the Australian Nugget series of does, they would simply read the coins. The member is not being help- member for Murchison-Eyre's state- ful by selling his country down the ments about the gold coin. drain.