The Skating Lesson Podcast Transcript Federations, Chance, and the International Judging System: An Interview with Chuck Foster Part 2

Jenny: Now in 2003, Chuck, you were elected president of United States . What are the primary responsibilities of the president?

Chuck: You’re sort of the CEO of the organization. So you have – it’s a volunteer-driven organization. So you have an executive committee that does – takes care of, oversees almost every aspect with a professional setup.

So you’re just looking over the rest of the staff. Now at the time when, during your first month of president, you laid out your goals for the federation. And part of what you talked about was changing the way that US Figure Skating communicated with the ISU. And in part, you said:

“We have to make alliances with other like-minded members to try to effect change. We need to improve our influence. This is where we have been lacking. We have not paid attention to the ISU. We’ve let things slip.”

So in what ways did you feel at the time that US Figure Skating wasn’t paying attention to the ISU and had let things slip, and what was your fear if things continued the way that they had been?

Chuck: The ISU is not unlike the UN. We are one vote with all these other – we have the equal vote as do all the other members. We got one vote – you know, Poland has one vote. And we didn’t have alliances or friendships with anybody. I thought maybe because I had been a judge internationally for so long that I would have a good relationship with a lot of people so that I could help the US Figure Skating by being part of the ISU decision-making. But I gotta tell you, it didn’t work.

Jenny: So you felt at the time that US Figure Skating was just isolating itself a bit, not using its allies in a sense?

Chuck: Yes. We were not a factor in the ISU.

Dave: Now why wouldn’t the US have been more a factor given all of the success of skating in the US at the time?

Chuck: Why aren’t we much more of a factor in the UN? Considering we pay for a lot of it? Just doesn’t work that way.

Jenny: Okay, and what were you afraid of was going to happen if, like you said, it didn’t seem like anything changed, so what was your fear at the time?

Chuck: Hm – I can’t recall what my fear was. I just felt we didn’t have enough say in the ISU, and that turned out – it’s true. We don’t have any.

Jenny: So a few months before you became president, a new federation was formed, the World Skating Federation. And really their primary goal was to take some of that influence away from the ISU and back to the hands of the athletes. Personally, what was your opinion about this federation? Chuck: I knew nothing about it, and I was very surprised. I must have been the only person in US Figure Skating that hadn’t heard of it. But as I have said, I was – from the time I was with the Olympic Committee, I was really not involved in US Figure Skating from about 19 – I was a member of the board till ’96, I think, but from ’91 or so I was too busy with the Olympic Committee. I was out of it. So I wasn’t in the flow of what was going on, and I was as shocked as anybody. I read about it in the paper before I – I went to Washington as a spectator for the World Championships. I hadn’t heard anything about it. Other people had. I subsequently found out a lot of people had signed non-disclosure agreements. I don’t know if you’ve heard about that. They were informed about what was developing, but they had to agree not to say anything. I was never approached.

Jenny: So when you found out about the federation and what they were doing, what then were your views?

Chuck: I didn’t have any views, really, because I wasn’t involved. What it did create was, ultimately, later on in April or May, I became more or less a candidate to be president. But I had no particular views at the time.

Jenny: And at the time, US Figure Skating got some flak for not publicly endorsing the World Skating Federation. Why did you think that was?

Chuck: It was a coup de tat. Some members wanted to do it, some didn’t. They didn’t succeed in, this is the way I understand it, I wasn’t a part of it, but the executive committee met in Washington, of US Figure Skating – I think, and I’m not really the one to tell you about this, but my understanding is the executive committee met. Some members of the executive committee wanted to come out publicly in behind them and others didn’t. Weell, the coup de tat didn’t work, so they didn’t come out and support them. That was a vote I think of the executive committee at that time.

Dave: Now during your career as president of the USFS, we start to see American skaters withdrawing from the Grand Prix events, specifically Skate America, which is really one of the hallmark events of the Grand Prix as well as obviously the United States’ own event. And in 2002, was actually paid by the US Figure Skating Association to participate in that event. And in recent years, we’ve seen that Evan Lysacek was scheduled to compete at Skate America and withdrew due to a financial disagreement with the federation. Did you ever pay athletes to compete at Skate America while you were president?

Chuck: Not that I’m aware of.

Dave: Okay. Do you think that they should be paid in order ot keep the stars there ad to make sure that our ratings…

Chuck: Sure, if there was the money. But in terms of athletes being paid, I knew very little about that at all. I think if you go to the US Figure Skating 990, which is a required report to the Internal Revenue Service, you’ll see – Phil Hersh actually wrote a column about Michelle’s remuneration, so I would refer you to that. And look at their 990 where you have to list the top paid people in the organization. You just have to go to Phil Hersh’s column. He goes through it all. Same with Evan.

Dave: Okay. Now one of the major events of your presidency took place when it came time for ABC Sports ot renew its contract with the International Skating Union. At that time, ABC had been paying $22 million a year to the ISU. You were quoted as saying:

“I am very disappointed with Ottavio Cinquanta. He wouldn’t cooperate with any request we made. He didn’t talk with ABC at all, and he ended up without a [TV] contract.”

What actually happened during those contract negotiations?

Chuck: Well, I don’t know what happened to the ISU contract negotiations, but I can tell you when I said that again to Phil Hersh, I was disappointed with Ottavio. We wanted – we had these various competitions that were “made for TV” competitions that were part of our contract with ABC. You know, they didn’t just pay us $12 million a year for nationals. It was a matter of bundling hours of skating to put on TV and there were these five, I believe, “made for TV” skating shows. We wanted to, for the last group that skated, skate six, five, four, three, two, one. So the person that won the short program would be the last one to skate. ABC has data that shows that people clicked off is somebody like Michelle skated sixth instead of last, that they lost them. So this was not the nationals at the time, but it was our attempt to try to play ball with the TV and try to enhance our possibilities for the future contract. The ISU absolutely said that we couldn’t do that. It was a sanctioned event that had to be – you know, interestingly enough, my friends, everything I was thinking about then they have now done.

Dave: Yeah, every Grand Prix!

Chuck: Yeah – and everywhere, they’ve done that. It was something that was – couldn’t get it done, and it probably was one of the reasons that I left. I saw I just couldn’t have any impact at all.

Dave: ESPN eventually signed a contract with the ISU for the $5 million dollars a year, which is a far cry from $22 million. Given the current success of the sport in Asia – Japan and Korea, do you think the ISU has taken a hit financially at all from the heyday of the nineties?

You know, they keep their books very secret, so I don’t know how they’re doing. Yes, you’re absolutely correct. The whole sponsorship, I would say, has moved to the far east – Korea, Japan, China. That’s where the money is these days. TV, as you know in the United States and in Canada, it’s almost nonexistent. It’s moved to cable and pretty soon it’s going to be on-demand cable. I had some little information here – the ratings for the nationals this year were down 7% from the year before. Something like, there was 3% of the people, 0.3, the rating. In the heyday, it was 45 when Katarina and had the Battle of the Carmens! It was the second-largest TV audience ever, and the same in ’94 in with Harding and Kerrigan. The short program was the most highly rated TV viewership ever! Well, those days are gone. We’ve slipped from being a prime-time event to you gotta work and you’ll find it. We’re down with high school cheerleading and bull-riding! And it’s lost its appeal.

Jenny: Why? I think that’s a question so many people want to know because you were president during that switch to the new IJS when it started to come…

Chuck: It hadn’t been implemented.

Jenny: Right, I think it was just to test it, but did you see something like this happen, portend that something like this could happen because of that new system? Personally, in your opinion, why do you think skating has declined so much in terms of viewership?

Chuck: The new judging system. I would refer you to Christine Brennan’s article. This is 2008! “TV ratings slip as figure skating loses its edge.” Now there’s a pun – lost our edge! But we’ve lost our audience. Advertisers pay for eyeballs, looking at the screen. They weren’t getting – it started out the high rating, it sliped down to no rating. Advertisers abandon us because we lost our fan base because of the new judging system. People couldn’t understand it – the skaters at first couldn’t understand it. And now – people identify with the 6.0 system. Somebody could say, “oh, that nasty Judge No. 9!” whose name the can go – ooooh. Now under this new one – you can’t! There’s nothing! Nobody even understands – they don’t even know who the judges are, so you can’t identify. Two, I think, people have been in and out. You need a marquee lady skater without a doubt. And since Michelle, kids have come in and out, and they’ve been young kids. And also, what I think we miss now is Dick Button. Dick Button is Mister Skater. He has been – and I’ve gone through a lot of pocket parties and various things. “Everybody knows what a salchow is!” They seemed to love that word. And Dick explained, and we’re missing him pining about a skater because they’re in and out so fast. They haven’t had Dick sort of talk about them, building them up over the years. We really miss Dick as a promoter – he was a promoter of the sport just by being on television. And he helped kids build their career because they were around more than one year or two years. Look at Lipinski – she was in and out so fast. I knew all the skaters, I’ve never met . And I thought I knew everyone – it’s just the way things were. But she was in and out so fast, and she deserved to win that day, but there’s nobody – until we get a marquee skater that people can identify with, I think we’re headed down the ratings. We’re going to be totally off cable and it’ll be hard to find. I think it’ll be all pay-per-view.

Dave: Do you think it’s important it’s a lady? Obviously we have a lot of success in dance right now with Meryl and Charlie, and they’re really having that success that we wish a ladies skater would have. Do you think it’s important that it’s a ladies skater?

Chuck: I do. I love Charlie and Meryl, but they don’t capture the imagination. Our demographic is mostly women viewers. Men would come in when Katarina Witt was skating, but it’s mostly women viewers who can identify with these people, and that’s what builds our audience. But Charlie and Meryl are fabulous, we’ve had Evan – fabulous, but they don’t grab the imagination the way a female skater does.

Jenny: Do you worry at all, Chuck, that with this new system, there isn’t that potential to really get to know a skater’s personality on the ice? Because just as a viewer watching it, it seems very technical, that…

Chuck: Absolutely. You’re absolutely right on. We have contortionists out there now. This butt-spin – I never did go much for that.

Jenny: I don’t think any of that went much for that!

Chuck: Do you know that it’s called?

Jenny: The one where they stick their tush in the air?

Chuck: Yeah!

Dave: It’s the A-spin, yeah, the A-frame.

Chuck: Oh, I thought it’s called the butt spin.

Jenny: Well then they have the haircutter where they bring the blade up to the head.

Chuck: It gets back to the long program. It’s just a longer short program with necessary elements. Now everybody is going for points. The different positions – I’ll go back to Michelle. Nothing was more beautiful than that great inside spiral to the outside. You don’t have time for any of that anymore. You don’t have time for anything. There’s no – Toller Cranston talked about it in article. The sport was artistry and athletic ability. Now it’s just all racing around and doing things to get points. People in the audience – it doesn’t appeal to people anymore. So the system has I think helped defeat the popularity?

Jenny: So do you think there is anything positive about this new system? I mean if you were in power right now, what would you do? Would you keep any of the current system – would you just go back to the 6.0 system? Do you like any of what you see?

Chuck: You know, you’ll never go back to the 6.0. I was thinking about that before I started talking to you. You can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube. We’ve now have had a whole, almost a generation of skaters that that’s all they’ve known. I mean [inaudible], now this whole generation, that’s all they know. And so I think we’ve lost that because that’ll never be changed back. We can regret it, but it won’t be changed back.

Jenny: So would you keep any of what you see in the current system? How would you modify it?

Chuck: I did like the fact that was able to go from ninth to where she was, to second. People can move under this system where the likelihood of that happening before was nonexistent.

Dave: Do you think it hurts the sport, though, when Gracie goes from ninth to second with that amazing performance on that night and then someone like struggles in her long program and still wins? Do you think that viewers are still confused with Ashley winning? Do they need to explain that better?

Chuck: You know, I missed that performance. I was in South America at the time and I missed it. I read that fell or did something two or three times and still won the Europeans. It’s unfortunate, but until we have somebody that’s consistently good and wins, then we’re not going to have another star. There’s somebody out there I’m sure.

Dave: Do you think the clean program needs to be valued more than it is?

Chuck: Yeah, yes. I can’t enlarge that. I say yeah. It’d be nice to see a little bit more artistic skating. I think we all agree there.

Jenny: I agree. And at its inception, Chuck, one of the stated benefits of the new system was to eliminate pressure on judges from their own country to try to mark their skaters better because of the anonymity provided by the new system. Do you think this has been a cheat?

Chuck: I think that the judges have little to no impact these days, and I think the judges think so. It’s more the points and doing things to gain points, and you know, in the days where I was judging, you would always race to look at the ordinals sheet to see how you did in relation to everybody else. Now, I don’t think the judges don’t even look at all they did because they have so little impact.

Dave: Now, when was the IJS officially voted on? I know that it was considered a project for a long time and…

Chuck: 2004 – I was there.

Dave: And what was the federation’s position?

Chuck: It was to vote for it based on the vote of the governing council directing us to vote that way.

Jenny: You talked, Chuck, about the judges now in this new system – it’s almost like they don’t have any power anymore, it’s in the hands of the technical caller.

Chuck: You keep using the word power – I never felt I had power.

Jenny: Well, I think as a skater, sometimes – our results are in your hands! So I think as a skater sometimes we have that feeling inside. But now it seems like the influence over the event really is in the hands of the technical controller. Do you think that’s okay? How do you feel about that?

Chuck: Well, it’s a judgmental sport, so you’re always going to have people making a decision that other people aren’t going to like. And so maybe now it’s the technical people that people don’t like. We could get into a whole conversation, Jennifer, about judges and skaters. I could spend another three hours about my feeling there. Quickly, I’ll say – the skaters are brought up to dislike judges. And I’ve never heard a coach say to a skater – I didn’t prepare you properly. It’s that the judges come in to do a test session, and then they’re gone. The coach has to come up with some reason while the child didn’t do well. And it’s – well the judges were tough today. And it starts at the very beginning. We had a – do you understand what I’m saying there? That’s my feeling about it, that they’re brought up to dislike the judges. And you know what, we’re all volunteers. We help create their careers where they can move on and do so well because all the people that run the federation are volunteers, all the people that organize competitions, all the judges that donate all this time – you couldn’t have a competition like this if you had to pay people to come. So we’re not a – you know, the judges are not a mean-spirited group. You know, I don’t get out of bed at 6 in the morning and say, “I’m going to go fail somebody!” I do it because I love the sport, I love the kids – it’s a great experience, it’s great. But we always seem to be at loggerheads because we help create people coming up, and then when we get there, we have trouble. They have agents, various things who have a different agenda than – we try and just run the organization that promotes figure skating.

Dave: What do you think the primary goal of the USFS should be in order to get skating back to the top?

Chuck: Well, promote figure skating – they’re trying to promote figure skating in the United States. But that doesn’t mean just your elite. It’s your synchronized, it’s the collegiate – there’s many facets. A pyramid – the elite is what you see on TV. But we’re obligated to promote the sport throughout – learn to skate classes and various things.

Dave: If you were president today, how would you go about promoting it from the ground up?

Chuck: I don’t know. If you’re not on television, you’re not getting kids into the rink. Most skaters, if you ask them – why did you get interested in skating, it’s because – we saw it on TV! A four-year-old, or a five-year-old says – Mummy, I’d like to do that! And so their kids come in. My sister’s taught skating for years, and generally after an Olympics, there’s a flood of people into the rink. It hasn’t happened as much in recent years, I don’t think. I don’t know how I would promote it.

Jenny: It’s that conundrum that I think many people are pondering and questioning. But back to when you were president. You resigned a few years* before the end of your term, and there’s been a lot of speculation in terms of your resignation. [On-screen caption – Chuck Foster resigned a few *MONTHS prior to the end of his term.] Why did you resign?

Chuck: Why did I resign? I’ve never discussed that very much. I guess the bottom line is that I think I was failing as the leader of the organization. I thought maybe I should get out now and let other people who might be able to run the organization better take over.

Jenny: In what ways did you think you were failing?

Chuck: I just – there were so many difficulties everywhere with people, and I had trouble – I was beginning to have trouble with the international federation, I was having trouble with the Olympic Committee just over, you know – Jeff last name inaudible, attorney for the Olympic Committee – he and I knocked heads together over various things, and I just felt that I was in the wrong spot. I guess I just wasn’t enough of a leader or something.

Jenny: To keep everybody together. But at the time, you told Phil Hersh in a Chicago Tribune article that “the governance of the USFSA is dysfunctional. There is back-fighting and bickering over everything.” What did you mean by that?

Chuck: Well, that same thing! It’s a volunteer crew, and I came year after eleven years and sort of upset the apple cart there with the people that had been climbing up. And there was sort of guerilla warfare going on – on almost anything I wanted to do. That’s why I said that they need someone that’s going to – don’t make waves. I thought that maybe I could help change the culture a little, but I find that it’s impossible – for me, it was impossible.

Jenny: Much of what we discussed here during the interview was how skating has gone through different peaks and valleys, and it really seems like – for many people, talent is still there in the sport. There’s still that talent, there’s still the love from skating fans, die-hard skating fans, former skaters and judges like myself and yourself. Do you think skating will ever be able to reach the stature it had prior to enduring the huge boom it experienced in the 1990s, and if so, we talked about it a little bit, but what do you think the sport needs to get back to that point?

Chuck: You know, I – that’s a tough question, and I don’t think I have the answer. Maybe it’s a cycle. Maybe we’re now on the down cycle. We have plenty of talent out there – plenty. So, why we can’t rise to the occasion or come back, I just don’t know. There are lots of good, good skaters. I won’t even name them, but I’ve watched some of the tapes of various things and I think there are terrific people out there. I think there’s too much emphasis on the quad – that doesn’t make it very interesting, and lots of times there are failures, and you know, very few people that can complete those things. I think that hurts in the long run. That’s always been a problem, though – Midori and the first triple axel, Tim was the first quad – Goebel – and before that, there was somebody else. You know, Tonya Harding was doing the triple axel. Too much emphasis now is on the quad with the men and various things. It makes it just – skating’s got to go back to what it was, the combination of athleticism and artistry. There’s no artistry. I think that’s really turning people off. So, as I say, you can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube, however, so I don’t – nobody has the solution to that, I don’t think, because you’re not going to get rid of the IJS.

Jenny: As you said, the love is still there, the talent is still there, and I think that’s what we have to really hold onto. And to realize that perhaps it is what you said – those peaks and valleys. But we thank you so much, Chuck, for your time, and we like to end our interviews on a fun note, so what David and I are going to do – we’re going to see people’s names, and we want to hear the first things that come to your mind when you hear this name, okay?

Chuck: Sure!

Jenny: So I’m going to start with Dick Button.

Chuck: He’s been my hero for over sixty years. He’s terrific. He’s a very smart guy, and as I said early on, a great promoter of the sport. And I think we miss him being on television talking about our upcoming skaters.

Dave: Tai Babilonia.

Chuck: Oh – she’s a… well, you gotta almost say Tai and Randy!

Jenny: Forever two as one!

Chuck: Forever, right. I’ve known them since they were very young, both of them, and I’ve said, I’ve always been very fond of Tai. I think they’re great. Good skater, nice person.

Dave: We’re very fond of her as well.

Jenny: We love Tai. All right, what about Evy Scotvoll?

Chuck: Oh, Evy – Evy and I have knocked heads for years! We’re both stubborn, we’re about the same age, but he’s a fine coach, and he’s got results to prove it. A little tough, can be unpleasant as we all know, but he’s a good coach. And he’s a friend of mine. It’s part of our knocking heads over all the time since we were little in Rochester, Minnesota. I think we used to bang tricycles.

Jenny: I had a funny image just now of you, mental image! Tricycles!

Chuck: We’re both stubborn. I say we’re friends – we’ve been friends for years.

Dave: Tonya Harding.

Chuck: Tonya Harding. You know, Tonya was a great skater – had great talent. Misguided, but talented. At the Skate America in Portland, Maine, she did a triple lutz that I swear looked like it was over the boards. I mean, fabulous. It’s too bad that it went the way it went. She was a fine skater. She had a lot of talent.

Jenny: How about Nancy Kerrigan?

Chuck: Nancy Kerrigan is a good result of Evy’s coaching from when she started with him to the level she worked up to. She was a fine skater. Dave: Didier Gailhaguet.

Chuck: Didier – Didier is going to be the next president of the ISU. Count on it. Put it on your… interesting guy. Knew him when he was a skater, he skated over in Colorado, took from Carlo [Fassi], knew him as a kid. He’s an interesting character. But you put that in your notebook that he’ll be the next president.

Jenny: We will. How about Vanessa Riley?

Chuck: Oh, character! That’s all.

Dave: There are YouTube videos about her judging that are great to see.

Chuck: I haven’t seen them, but I know her! She’s a character.

Dave: Marine-Reine Le Gougne.

Chuck: Marie – oh, I wish I never heard the name.

Jenny: How about Scott Hamilton?

Chuck: If anybody’s going to succeed Dick Button as Mister Skating, I think Scott is Mister Skating, too. Great personality. Great person – nice, nice guy, great personality.

Dave: Ottavio Cinquanta.

Chuck: You know, he is what he is. I can’t say much – I won’t say much about it, but he’s not my favorite guy.

Jenny: I don’t think he’s many people’s.

Chuck: I think he’s killed skating.

Jenny: Sonia Bianchetti.

Chuck: Well, she’s a good friend of mine. We communicate regularly now to this date. She’s a very, very bright individual. She contributed a tremendous amount to the sport and still does, in her way. So I’ve enjoyed being – she was the chair of the technical committee for many years when I was most active, and I have the highest regard for her.

Dave: And our final name – Tatiana Tarasova.

Chuck: Tatiana is wonderful! Wonderful! I heard a great story, recently. You know, they had all the skaters over in Sochi for the pre-Olympics sort of type thing. And I understand they were all in a bus going to the rink and they got to the Olympic park – I guess all the venues are very close. And it’s beautiful in there, but there’s one street. Well, the bus came to a stop. And they didn’t go anywhere. They had all the skaters in there and everybody. The bus didn’t go anywhere, and stopped. And then there were lights coming, flashing lights. She got on the bus and stopped, and said, “stop that car! These people must get to the rink!” She was having this conversation with this driver, and the guy said “who are you?” She said, “I’m Tatiana Tarasova?” And she said, “and who are you?” He said, “I’m the mayor of Sochi!” Well, then they had a lot of words, and it turns out that Putin was in the car! She said, “you guys gotta stop that car! The fifty people who were invited to come here are waiting, and they’re getting a terrible impression!” She’s one of the most famous people in Russia.

Jenny: She seems so headstrong! Chuck: Yeah, but as I said, she’s one of the – and then I guess Putin came to the rink and spent the rest of his time talking to her.

Jenny: I’m sure he actually respected the fact that she put her foot down to him. I’m sure he doesn’t get that often!

Chuck: Oh, absolutely! She’s a take-charge person. And a wonderful – she’s a wonderful, wonderful person. I’ve been in her home in Moscow. Her husband is a pianist. They have two grand pianos in the living room. Very, very interesting gal. Her father was Tarasov, the father of modern Russian hockey. They’re very, very famous. I can’t tell this story the way my friend told it to me. Going toe-to-toe with the mayor.

Jenny: We loved it, though, we loved those little insights. We thank you so much, I hope you feel better with your cold, we really appreciate giving us your time.

Chuck: I’m just stuffed up, and I hate to keep rubbing my nose! I’m sorry.

Jenny: It’s fine, but again, we appreciate it. And again, we appreciate you speaking so openly about your career and your time in this sport.

Chuck: I hope it was all right.

[Chuck Foster leaves]

Dave: We’d absolutely love to thank Chuck Foster for his time and insight today and really going down memory lane with us.

Jenny: Yeah, we really appreciate him talking so much about his feelings about the new judging system. I think it’s definitely a controversial system – everybody has their own views and opinions and again, I thank him for speaking so honestly and openly about his own views and opinions.

Dave: Absolutely. You might not agree with it, but I think we can all respect anyone who puts their views out there. And as always, we would like to thank all of you for tuning in to The Skating Lesson podcast, and we’d like to channel Michael Buckley and tell you that – please “like” it, even if you hate it!

Jenny: Like us even if you hate us! We want you to like us! We’re desperate!

Dave: We’re desperate for you to like us!

Jenny: But you can like us, and then if you hate us, you can send us an e-mail to [email protected]. You can also find us on Twitter and twitter.com/skatinglesson. Oh, we would like to thank Kevin Quasnaski I’m assuming the name is Polish and therefore impossible to both spell and pronounce, so could you please fix that? for our graphics because he’s great and he does a lot of wonderful work for us.

Dave: Yes, and as always, we’d always like to remind all of you to hold an edge…

Together: And look sexy! Bye, guys.

Jenny: I don’t know if that was sexy there!

Dave: I think we just read that as it was. There was some good editing…