' - ) LET OFFIC There are two possibilities. One is a part and parcel of the democratic war itself South Slav Federation comp?sed of Serbs, and that they can be of help not only in Croats, Slovenes and Bulgarians with which shortening the war greatly but in solving the other Balkan nations-Rumania, Greece a variety of problems. and Albania - would collaborate. Russia, In the matter of the terrible devastatiqn The which qoes not look sympathetically on the wrought by fascist Italian troops in the Bal idea of any bloc federated on the basis of kans or by satellite Bulgarian fascist groups, regionalism, favors this possibility. The the round table has agreed it is vital that other solution is a Balkan Federation, with full restitution be made· for the devastated all the Balkan peoples participating and areas. You have concurred in recommend BATTLE renouncing their small nationalisms in .a ing that all resources (particularly those bf federated state within a democratic frame- the Axis nations) be po9led in order· to re work, each country ret.aining a ~ imited .establish prosperity and help·the victimized sovereignty. The great powers must' not peoples to cope with the problems of divide the Balkan community into spheres disease, ruined property and so forth. ·for of influence; a united democratic, inde- In the matter of boundary problems the pendent community of the Balkan peoples members of the round table were of the would constitute the firmest of links be- unanimous belief that those areas which tween Russia and the rest of Europe. have ·been occupied by the Axis countries THE BALKAN·S Dolivet - May I now submit the conclu- and which have suffered so terribly from sions we have reached? The round table the enemy should be returned immediately. has, ·first of all, agreed that we must devise In other cases where there is disagreement a more precise definition of the term "Bal- about boundari'es a complete transforma kans," a term that up to now has been tion, both of the political philosophy and wrongly identified with a regime of corrup- of the machinery and the men responsible, tion, disorganization, inefficiency. -In reality is vital if the purposes for which we are MAR there have at times been extremely strong waging war are not to be endangered. Meas 9 ~ :J44 tendencies toward national independence 'in ures' must be taken which respect the will the Balkan countries; but there, as else- of the majority of the people in th9se terri I.. where, a minority composed of reactionary, tories before fascist usurpations. · - anti-popular forces has been able (with the You have concurred in thinking it would help in some cases of foreign powers) to be highly desirable to entrust the solution impose its regime on the people. of those problems to the democratic, pro- A ROUND TABLE The round table held divergent views gressive forces-because there is a concrete on the influence which those interventions prospect that these progressive forces can LOUIS ADAMIC • LOUIS DOLIVET • JOSEF HANC by foreign powers have had. Some members solve the problems; whereas the nationalists /. SAVA N. KOSANOVICH • BOGDAN RADITSA of the round table believe they were a will never be able to solve them because primary factor in the establishment of reac- as their point of departure they take mys GAETANO SALVEMINI• VICTOR SHARENKOFF tionary regimes, whereas others among you tical conceptions which in the end might ' RUSTEM VAMBERY • BASIL VLA VI.ANOS believe that these interventions were not lead to permanent conflicts. decisive.,-that within the various. countries Finally, the members of the round table J. ALVAREZ DEL VAYO th~re were local forces responsible for the have agreed that neither the Balkan coun establishment of reactionary regimes. tries nor the other peoples of Europe wil,l But the. round table was in complete permit Soviet Russia or any other country agreement that the United Nations must to be isolated .by a cordon sanitaire. begin now to deal with the various ~ibera- They are convinced it is to the interest tion movements; for they ·are our sole guar- of the Balkan countries to develop the full antee that democratic governments can be es.t collaboration within the framework of established in the Balkans and that the dif- European democratic unity and within a ferent boundary and other problems which world organization; and that there should may arise will be solved in line with dem- be full cooperation with the major United Reprinted from the November 1943 Issue of the ocratic principles and w~th the full agree- Nations powers, on a basis of equality. mc;;~eofm~~~~~~re~~e~:ee~~~-d table are. Adamic-1 want to congratulate you on FR~E WORLD .MAGAZINE · the splendid way in which you have sum- agreed about the grave danger growmg marized the discussion. I should also like for the United Committee of South-Slavic Americans out of the fear of revolution shown by. some of the major powers within the United you to note that Mr. Salvemini and I feel 1010 Park Avenue, New York 28, New York . Nations. The members are also agreed that that the problem· of the proper boundary · h b · line between Italy and Yugoslavia is thrown democratic revo1 uuons ave ecome in- evitable and indispensable - that they are open to discussion. 16 Dolivet-Would you agree with ROUND ESSENTIAL FINDINGS THE this, Mr. Vlavianos? Basil Vlavianos-In so far as . For many years the word "Balkans" has been used the Balkan spirl.t is identified TABLE I derogatively with the implication of corruption, dis with the . spirit of fighting for order and anarchy. In reality the Balkan peoples have liberty. That is the essence of set amazing examples of heroic battle for the prin- BATTLE No. 20 . ciples of freedom and independence. Therefore a re the Balkan spirit. It is also definition of the term "Balkan," in the sense of its identified with Balkan troubles real meaning, is necessary. because various powers have al ROM inside and outside FOR THE ways considered the Balkans as The overwhelming majority of the Balkan peoples the Balkans powerful Allied 2 were and are in favor of truly democratic regimes but falling within their sphere of forces are closing in on the up to now they have been oppressed by tyrannicar influence. minorities who have often received help from outside F Axis armies. Almost daily in Ad,amic...:... I should like to add powers. side.the Balkans the splendid guerrilla a little to the definition of the and partisan groups are striking at The most important pro-United Nations forces in the Balkan spirit. I believe that the the enemy with a courage and de 3 Balkans are the vari9us liberation and underground Balkan spirit is now coming to · termination unsurpassed in history. movements, composed of men of all shades of political a head and that it is much more conviction. Without distinction of race or nationality From the outside the powerful Soviet, they are fighting not only against the Axis and satellite T OUIS DOLIVET-The Balkans will concrete than it used to be. Formerly there Br·itish and Americ_an Armies ·a..re regimes but for the freedom of the Balkans and for L undoubtedly play an important role was a great deal of nebulous thinking about social transformation in line with the interests of the in any peace settlement on the Euro liberty and so forth. Now, I believe, that daily closing a _ring of steel around majority of the people. the Nazis. Therefore no subject pean Continent. I wish Mr. Kosanovich idea is becoming concrete in that the Balkan would start the ball rolling. nations want to withdraw the peoples and seemed more appropriate to the Edi- The liberation movements and armies are composed of the lands of the Balkans from the grasp and , .. tors of FREE WoRLD than the "Battle 4 p~asants, workers and intellectuals and include various Sava N. Kosanovich-}'ugoslavia is the kinds of political forces, ranging from . democratic and mOfit interesting part of the Balkans. I be from the interplay of the imperialistic pow for the Balkans." That is why we socialist groups to Communists. have invited reptesentative demo lieve the fact that Yugoslavia has been fight ers, whether they are ·Axis or not.· ing the occupation for more than two years Dolivet-May I ask Mr. Salvemini's opin . cratic leaders and experts on the The liberation movements are opposed to any cordon , Balkan question to participate in a sanitaire directed against Soviet Russia or any other is the expression of the true Balkan spirit. ion on this subject? power. They want, on the contrary, the full cooperation Gaetano Salvemini:-The Balkan peoples thoroughgoing discussion of the vari- Dolivet-What do you call the true Bal of all the United Nation powers, on a basis of equality. kan spirit? have, no doubt, fought for liberty if by ous aspects of the Balkan. problem. Kosanovich-It is a big mistake to use liberty one means natio;nal independence On behalf of FREE WORLD\ Louis Do All the territories taken over by the Axis and satellite the word "Balkanization" derogatively. It from the Turks. In their national revolts livet presided. 6 regimes must be returned to the peoples to whom they . is an offense against peoples who for cen against the Turks they set a matvelous e.x7 Those who took part in the discus- belong; and the fate of those areas. which are con~ested must be decided in accordance with the free· will of turies fought for liberty. The Balkan ample to all of Europe. But within each sion 'were: Louis Adamic, author of the majority of the people residi~g th~re before t~e peoples-the Greeks and The Native's Return and My Na Axis aggression and in conformity with democratic principles. , Yugoslavs ( ~ nd by Yugo tive Land and president of the slavs I mean Serbs, Croats, United Committee of South-Slavic Since boundary disputes can be peacefully setded only Slovenes and Bulgarians) Americans; Josef Hane, director of 7 by democratic governments it is vitally i~portant to - for centuries fought the Czechoslovak Economic Service the United Nations that such governments be set up to deal with these as well as manifold other issues. against oppression. We in the United States; Sava N. Kosa were the first-the Bal novich, member of the Yugoslav Par- kans-to meet the Turks liament and sec~etary general of the in the fourteenth cen Democratic Independent party; Bog- . tury. The Balkan peoples dan Raditsa, press chief, the Yugoslav Information Center in the United States; Gaetano were the ones who fought Salvemini, lecturer at Harvard University in the history of Italian civilization and with the Serbs against the author (with George La Piana) of What to Do with Italy; Victor Sharenkoff, secre Turks m the Middle tary of the Bulgarian Congress of America, for some time editor of Zemledelska Ages. Pravda (Agrarian Justice) in Bulgaria; Rustem Vambery, de_an emeritus, Law School, Louis Adamic - The Budapest University, chairman of the Committee for a New Democratic Hungary; Basil Greeks fought too. Vlavianos, publisher and editor of the National Herald; ]. Alvarez del Vayo, Minis · Kosanovich-Naturally. ter of Foreign Affairs for the Spanish Republic. The Serbs, were . the bul The Editors of FREE WORLD want to pay a tribute to the sta,tesmanship a;nd genuinely wark of Europe and the democratic spirit of the participants in the Round Table. It is their conviction that in qght in the Balkans stop the hands of the same or similar men the problems of the Balkans could be solved in the ped the Turks in their . interests of democracy and of a lasting peace. invasion of Europe. Louia Dolivet Alvarez del V ayo 2 J. Balkan country, just as in all the other coun Czarist Russia. Later on .Austria-Hungary but unquestionably authentic information tries of. Europe, there were dynasties-and intervened and, still larer, England. Stam I have received - what is going on inside around them groups of military men, poli- boliiski's fall was accomplished with English Yugoslavia, especially inside Yugoslav heads. ticians and business men. . , approval. England, seeing that French in I am a partisan of the Partisans and their ' Adamic-Gangsters. I fluence was becoming stronger in Bulgaria Liberation Front, which seems to me a most Salvemini-All right: gangsters,.who never and that Stamboliiski was working toward significant movement. In it I find more po cared about liberty. The local population, an understanding with Yugoslavia, found litical maturity than almost anywhere else. among whom the peasantry is most decent some tools in Bulgaria - unfortunately Those Yugoslavs in the Liberation Front, and worthy of respect, have been the victims among some of the professors in the univer" which I believe includes a majority of the of such minorities. Even when they were sity-and they finished off Stamboliiski. So population, know what they want and what fighting the Turks (because they wanted to th~ policy of England triumphed over the they don't want-and their bloody faces are monopolize the exploitation of their own policy of France. Then, of course, Germany turned toward the future. peoples) those minorities were still fighting used business and commercial interests and In the Yugoslav Liberation Front, Com against their own peoples. From this point financial investments to penetrate Bulgaria. munists and diverse non-Communists are of view there was never any difference be Dolivet-Mr. Raditsa, how can the Bal working together; and after two years of tween' the . Kings of Yugoslavia, Rumania, kans get out of the grasp of these reactionary fighting the Axis and its Quislings and the 1 Bulgaria and Greece. forces? potential Darla?s and Badoglios it is not Vlavianos-That is true of all nations. It Bogdan )laditsa-There is only one way. terribly important to anyone in the move Louis Adamic is not a fact peculiar to the Balkans. The old slbgan, "The Balkans for the Bal ment whether a person is a Communist or Salvemini-Agreed. But the Balkan coun kan people," must be rejuvenated into a not. In the development of the situation in tries have been . the victims of a particular formula for a Balkan community of free which they are involved they have worked it may become a problem of the future, misfortune. Too often the so-called great Balkan nations. This community must be out a formula of action - non-Communists should certain conservative influences powers, in playing the game of the balance a link between the West and Russia and and Communists and "just people" cooper~ among the United Nations try to get the of power, have set up the peoples and rul not an attempt to isolate Russia behind a ating and fighting shoulder to shoulder upper hand. ers of the different B:V.kan countries one series of buffer states erected against Russia. which formula should, I think, be extended And second, it is highly important to against the other. Thus the Balkan peoples The Balkans must realize the global sens~ to the international scene. Whether or not stress the unanimity with which it has been have been the victims of two evils: the evil of this war; that we must achieve a free they will continue to work together after stated here that the policy 9f the great - done by their own politicians and the eviJ world in cooperation with the three major the war will depend on the success or failure powers in the Balkans has often in the done by the diplomatists of the great powers. powers in the free .world - Russia, Great the Anglo-American democracies and com- . past twenty years favored reactionary Adamic-I should like to make it con Britain and the United States. munist Russia meet with in getting together. cliques as over against democratic forces. crete. The Balkan peoples have produced The masses of the Balkan peoples want Vlavianos-The same situation prevails in Even at a time when there was no question men who were their leaders, people's lead liberation from corrupt ruling classes at Greece. . of military expediency the policy of cer ers, but as soon as lhey appeared they were home. They want to become federated in Adamic-Meanwhile (as I try to imagine tain great powers in the Balkans was to "bumped off," to use the gangster's lan a free community of Balkan nations. what is going on in the liberation front or favor reaction as over against democracy. guage. That happened to Stamb~liiski in You must take into account the enormous partisan minds) most of the thinking in Salvemini-Since the cordon sanitaire has Bulgaria in 1923 and to -Raditch in Yugo pro-Russian feeling throughout the Balkans. Yugoslavia is pretty tentative. The central come to the fore I should .like to put in a _ slavia in 1928. Whenever these peoples man It is inspired by the Russian people's re attitude of the Communists and non-Com- · word about it. We all agree that tl'ie idea age. to work up leaders who are going to sistance. The reports now arriving from the munists is that the concrete solution of all of a cordon sanitaire directed against Rus lead them the gangsters, who are hired by Balkans say there are two currents of feeling political, social, economic and cultural prob sia has to be dismissed. But what is th~ the big powers, bump them off. .:...one pro-Russian and the other pro-Allied lems affecting the future Yugoslav state alternative? Has Europe west of Russia Kosanovich- Unfortunately the dicta (I mean pro -Anglo -American). We must must wait till after the war. got to remain unorganized, so that not torial regimes in the Balkans always used effect a unity between those two currents. J. Alvarez del Vayo-I think it very im only the British Foreign Office but also the democratic language to conceal their real That unity can be achieved only if the Bal portant that from the beginning emphasis diplomats of Soviet Russia may play the. old methods of governing. For example, while kan peoples are free. The pro - Russian should be laid on the facts-and this has game of the balance of power among con the democrats of Yugoslavia fought the dic feeling must be respected because that is the already been done by the various partic flicting countrie.i;? The only alternative to tatorship and went to prison, France and sentiment of the peasant people and the ipants in this round table. My first point the cordon sanitaire is the unity of Conti Great Britain supported the regime. It is peasS'.nt in the Balkans is the common man is the unanimity with which all you repre nental Europe west of Russia. I don't true that the reactionary governments or the of the future. sentatives of the different democratic know whether Stalin would agree on that dictatorships in Yugoslavia were - on the You cannot, however, realize a commu forces- point or whether he agrees with Churchill whole-opposed to Hitler bµt they were also nity of free· Balkan nations if you do not Salvemini-I am not a representative of in opposing the unification of Europe. opposed to democracy at home. The sup have a democratic form of government with anything. Dolivet-Will you define what you mean pression of any development of democracy in each country. The new leaders arising dei Vayo-I anyhow consider Salvemini by the "unification of Europe"? paved the road for official collapse. from the people's resistance are bringing a representative of democracy But my first Salvemini-An agreement arrived at Dolivet-Mr. Sharenkqff, did you see the with them the conception of a democratic point is the unanimity with which every one among the !iemocracies of all countries of reactionary regimes in Bulgaria receiving order in the Balkans. of you, without exception, has reacted- Europe west of Russia, starting with France, the same support from the great powers? Dolivet-I think we agree as to the need . and reacted spontaneously and vigorously Germany and Italy, to the effe~t that they Victor Sharenkoff-The history of Bul for democratic regimes in the Balkan coun -against the idea of the cordon sanitaire. have to settle their own local problems by garia shows, if you start with the year.1912, tries. This is important because maybe this is not conciliation and arbitration. This agree that this Balkan country was at that ·time Adamic-For some time now I have been a problem for historians only but for poli ment should not be aimed against Britain under the protection of an imperial power, trying to imagine-on the basis of partial ticians. It is not a problem of .the past but or against Russia, or against anyone else.
4 .! !S , . The European countries would merely anovich, in opposing use of the term as an Josef Hane-Czechoslovakia doesn't be cease fighting each other and would no abusive word. The misuse is nothing new. long geographically to the area we're talk longer be exploited by either Britain or Western nations have always treated East ing about. But Czechoslovaks are vitally , Russia or b.y anyone else. Unified Europe ern Europeans de haut en bas-an attitude , interested in whatever goes on .in the Bal should be, with Russia and the British only partially excused by ignorance. Shake kans. O.ur friends, the Yugoslavs, are there Commonwealth of· Nations, a partner in a speare, in The Merry Wives of Windsor, and we have always relied on very close world system of collective security. says, "O base Hungarian wight!" It was no cooperation with them. This reliance is Rustem Vambery - Churchill doesn't Hungarian he addressed, put "Hungarian" traditional-and there are economic and seem to be against the unification of in its now-obsolete sense meant beggarly other reasons behind it. The same goes for Europe. He has suggested regfonal federa and thievish. In the same sense "Balkan" the other United Nations in the Balkans. tions as a first step t?ward unification. signified corruption; it signified lack of · ' But Czechoslovakia would regard itself as · Salvemini~N o objection against regional civilization and culture-despite the fact a neighbor rather than as a nation im federations if the second step is taken with that some of the Balkan countries have mediately concerned with Balkan · prob out delay. Regional federations must serve · really produced magnificent contributions lems. as a first step toward and not as a stumbling to literature, science and art. I don't know One question I'd like to ask here: Do block against immediate unification. Tak ' who was responsible for the corruption of you really think we should put all the great ing the first step now, while postponing these words but reactionaries used them to powers into one bag rand say they were the second to an indefinite future, is dis- discredit the Balkans. The Balkans' neigh all interested in supporting the gangsters? ' . carding that second step which is even bors leveled charges of eternal squabbles, Vlavianos-All except the United States. more needed than the first. If the govern brawls, an aggressive spirit, etc. at the Hane-Wasn't it thanks to the great ments of Great Britain and Soviet Russia Balkan nations-with no more justification powers that some of these nations got their were again to play the balance-of-power than American isolationists have for the freedom eventually? ·game in Europe among regional federa- similar accusations they level at European Adamic-l'm disinclined to give them too tions the latter would be of little use. One nations in general. much credit. Rustem Vambery regional federation would fight against the Raditsa-Count Keyserling fell back on Salvemini-To be sure one cannot speak other. Nay, local federations would soon the old derogatory terms in his spectral of "all'' the great powers in "all" 'things. - disintegrate. Europe would again sink into Analysis of Europe. But I feel free to say · According as the game of the balance of all of us. But when the war has been won international anarchy. that after what tqe Nazis and Fascists have power required it the governments of the what has to be done? Vambery-1£ you agree with Salvemini done to Euro'pe, "Balkanization" is really different great powers helped now the Hane-As an objective person I don't like that we must oppose something positive to a small and innocent thing. We must for gangsters of one Balkan country and now to throw all the blame on the big powers. the idea that there should be a cordon get it as a romantic vision of the Balkans. those of another. Sometimes they also The Balkan nations are at least partly re sanitaire (and incidentally I heartily agree Vambery-I wqnder if you've ever heard ·helped the peoples. But all in all, especially sponsible for what happened to us all in with him) the question is: What should we the story of the diplomat who was sent to during these last forty years, the influence .the inter-war period. offer in its place and how do we offer it? a Balkan capital. He was seated at a dinner of the great powers has been harmful. The Vambery-What Hane has just said is, May I take some.of your time, having been party between the prime minister and the United States alone has an unblemished unfortunately, correct. But that is not the a professor all my life, to try tti discuss the minister of finance. Finally he turned to record of humanity and generosity. Let us opinion generally ·held. In this connection historical background of. the term "Balkan- the prime minister and said, "Apparently hope that such a record is not tarnished. I should li~e to quote from a book by ization."· it's time to~ go." He looked for his watch It would be a great pity. Wanklyn. He says, "Europe east of Ger and not finding it said, "Well, ~fr. Prime Hane-I'm not defending the great many a'nd west of Russia is still considered I fully agree with my dear friend, Kos- ' · Minister, this is inexplicable. My watch, . powers but I just want to be historically by the majority of the people in Great which I had .only a short time ago, has ap correct. The small Balkan nations achieved Britain as falling under two vague head parently been stolen." "Oh, never mind," freedom and unification in consequence of ings, the Slavs and the Balkans." said the prime minister, ''I'll get it for wars in which the great powers played a Hane-We shouldn't make the statement you," and in five minutes returned with the considerable part and out of which these that the great powers have always sup watch. The diplomat asked, "Where did nations won their independence. We ported the gangsters in the Balkan nations. you find it?" The prime minister replied, shouldn't use the term "great powers" in The statement is too sweeping. "The finance minister had it." "Oh, this discriminately because there are certain del Vayo-I shouldn't put it that way must have been very embarrassing."""By no · differences. Our discussion should proceed because (as I have said ·in former discus means," retorted the premier. "He doesn't along lines that are objectively accurate. sions with FREE WoRLD groups) if it is true know I took it." Salvemini-Do you see any differences to that the great powers carry the largest There were other stories like this one. day? That is what matters. share of the responsibility for the situa , They came out of Vienna and created the Hane-What should we. do today with tion that in J 939 we knew. would lead to myth that in the Balkan countries dis out the great powers? To be honest about war, that._ responsibility must also -be shared honesty was ~n innate national inclination. it, if the great powers do not win the war by other, smaller powers who did not real But the Balkans have no monopoly on cor for us what will we do? ize the universal character of the fascist ruption. Salvemini-It is obvious that all our dis menace. The point I want to emphasize is Dolivet-Mr. Hane, we want to come cussions start from the assumption that that in these countries (as Professor Sal back for one second to the problem of the America and Britain and Russia win the vemini has brought out very concretely) unification of Europe. Will you comment war in Europe. If they do not win, our there were small groups of gangsters or Josef Hane on that? time is wasted. Hitler would take care of reactionaries-as there were everywhere in 6 7 .. the world. In many places, perhaps, these in the Balkans or in some of the neighbor groups wo:uld never have succeeded in be ing countries that might complicate the coming masters of their own countries if situation? the policy of the great powers had not Adamic-Before we become optimistic I helped them. think we should decide on something else Salvemini-The po'licy of some great -on the big United ~ations getting to powers in conflict with that of other great gether and working out a formula for action powers. ' within which optimism would become a del Vayo-That seems absolutely UD;dis possibility. We must begin tight now with puted. the proper steps. Right now, from the In regard to Mr. Hanc's observations it Yugoslav angle, one of the most essential seems to me unnecessary to say that when steps is to recognize and deal with the lib- . we criticize certain aspects of the p~licy of eration movement inside Yugoslavia. The the great powers on whose side we are liberation movement there has worked out fighting we do so without pleasure. It a formula of action within which Com would be disturbing, and negativist, to munists and non-Communists are working assume an attitude of opposition to the together. This formula should be extended gr,eat powers. We want to help them carry to the international scene. When extended out·a democratic policy in Europe-the only it will make possible what Dr. Salvemini one possible· for the political organization would like to have. of. Europe. In the interest of winning the Dolivet-Would this liberation movement war and in the interest of peace we are include the Chetniks? 1 not opposed to the great powers; instead Adamic-No, the Liberation Front does we are trying to help them achieve a politi not include the Chetniks. It is antagonistic cal victory in Europe. to the 'Chetniks and vice versa. The Chet the underground papers. All of us in this not weakenedI and destroyed and their 'place Adamic-We should register a strong niks are, -to my notion, sort of- ' .country are keenly interested in the Greek taken by the reactionary and obsolete forces criticism of the great powers' politics in Salvemini-The Badoglios of Yugoslavia. Underground, which is strong and well which would compromise the. victims of this recent decades. The collapse of Czecho Vlavianos - Complete unity has ' been organized as you know; but we've. been un war and bring about conditions which will slovakia was not brought on by Czecho achieved in Greece. Recently I had reports able to get any of its many newsp~pers inevitably generate new wars. Humanity slovakia. It was induced by the slick game from six leaders of the Greek Underground because almost all these papers attack the · today is going through a revolution which played by Germany and France and Great who went to Egypt and conferred with King. can be canalized and directed only if we Britain. Allied headquarters, with which they work Dolivet--Mr. Sharenkoff, does the under are courageous and forward looking. Every Hane-I shouldn't like to lift the blame in dose cooperation. Among these people ground movement in Bulgaria show the attempt at reaction will only .create bloody from the Balkan nations entirely. That are two Leftist Democrats, one Communist, same Leftist tendency? chaos and anarchy. . Therefore,' from the would make it too easy for us. one Conservative-a man who was at one Sharenkoff,- Yes. There are other ele very beginning, we must bear in mind that Salvemini-The solution of the Balkan time a member of , the Tsaldaris. 'cabinet. ments - the so-called bourgeois people in we cannot create a new world with forces problem and, in general, of the European These men say that all parties within Bulgaria - but the majority are Leftists, that have, directly or indirectly, consciously and the world problem depends on two . Greece are collaborating marvelously to Agrarians, Communists and Socialists. Of or unconsciously, helped the development factors: the reorganization of the domestic secure not only liberation from Germany course the Socialist party is very much of fascism." policies of each country according to demo but liberation from dictatorships, kings and discredited in Bulgaria because sohie of its Dolivet-Mr. del Vayo, you have.had some cratic ideals; and, on the part of the big all reactionaries who may strive to create . leaders supported the fascist government. experience with the fe.ar of revolution. powers, the formulation of policies whim any but a democratic form of government. Vambery~Excuse me if I keep going back What do you think about it?. do not prevent that domestic reorganiza Unfortunately the Allies did not receive into history. When Napoleon defeated Fred del Vayo-First I should like to comment· tion. If local democratic forces were not them as tpey should have. At first, while erick William III of Prussia, posters ap on Mr. Adamic's suggestion that' we recog· powerful enough to overcome dynastic and they were discussing with these men all mat peared in the streets of Berlin announcing, nize the Liberation Front as constituting oligarchic forces within each country, the ters pertaining to military cooperation and 'The King has lost a battle. To keep quiet the present democratic forces-and the fu great powers could not create democratic so on: their _attitude was generous. But the is the citizen's first duty." It was quite right ture democratic forces-in the Balkans and forces overnight. The great powers would British began creating a host of difficulties for those who had been defeated to use that we try to deal with these forces at once. have no duty to build them up where they as soon as the underground leaders signed this slogan. But Q_OW, unfortunately, the Similarly we should deal in time with the did not exist. But these powers should not a protocol setting forth the unanimous Allied victors are using it to overcome their democratic forces in Italy. sabotage them where they do exist. desire of the Greek people to prevent the deadly fear of revolution. Lacking imagina Salvemini-Everywhere. Dolivet-'Would you agree, Mr. Hane? King and the present government from re· tion they apparently believe that, regardless del Vayo-It is not a specific problem. Hane-Yes. turning to Greece before the Greek people of the differences in economic and social Salvemini-It is a general problem. Dolivet-Let us take, as a point of depar decide on the postwar character of their . structure,, fascist and bolshevik revolutions del Vayo-This is the only realistic policy ture, the highly optimistic position that the own government. A strict censorship which are the only alternatives for all countries. we could submit for consideration . by the two conditions Mr. Salvemini has stipulated has been laid down prevents us from re Kosanovich-May I quote from a speech I great powers. We don't need to wait till are fulfilled. Then let us ask this question: ceiving more information not only about made last January:· "A democratic and pro the war is over to take a position on recent What are the problems we are going to face? them but even about the underground gressive world must do everything to give events in Italy. In my opinion we already From the Balkan, point of view are there movement, which is strongly opposed to the · support to the democratic and progressive have sufficient evi:dence to conclude that in territorial or other political problems with- King. The British go so far as to censor forces ' in Europe, so that those forces are spite of the fascist dictator and in spite of s ·' \ 9 the presence of the Gestapo and the Ger movement has solved these problems. We've Dolivet-1 should like Professor Salve- Italian schools. Where the population is mans, Italy had an underground movement seen a most revealing thing happen: the mini to comment on this question. If the compactly Slav or Italian the problem is marked by determination, clarity of aims Italian Bergamo Division policing Dalmatia peop1es on both sides of this old dispute easy to sol:ve. Where the two nationalities and a high level of political unity. When and part of Croatia for Mussolini changed have democratic regimes will their govern- are intermingled the problem can be solved we get the full story of Milan and Turin its name to the Garibaldi Division and ments normally accept solutions in agree- only by equitable compromises and by we'll see those cities as revealing not only joined the Yugoslav Army, of Liberation. ment with the will of the people, expressed forcing respect for these compromises upon a movement of revolt but a constructive They have a counterpart in the Hungarian in the freest form? anyone maddened by nationalistic frenz}!. movement oµ behalf of democracy. And PetOfi unit. We even have Germans and Salvemini-Mr. Adamic put his finger on Since I don't like to talk "brothers and the same thing is true in the Balkans. Austrians fighting together with us. All the right spot when he stated that the ques- sisters" let me say without equivocation that Some people among the United Nations groups are fighting together. The under tion of boundaries between Italy and Yugo- there is no question about Dalmatia. Dal do not seem to realize that you cannot deal ground's program is revolutionary but it is slavia must be settled "by a people who are matia is Slavic. As to the territories east simultaneously with democratic forces and not communistic. It is an exaggeration to honest." I should say by people who have to Gorizia, Trieste and West !stria, no man with their eneiny. In Italy you cannot have speak of it as such. You have priests, Ortho learned from the Gospel that. they must not can have the least doubt that they are in the Ifalia_n people and at the same time dox, Catholics, Mohammedans, in that peo do unto others what others should not do habited by a compact Slavic population and Badoglio. In the Balkans you cannot deal ple's movement. Party and national fron unto them. The problem of the Italo- are entitled to go with Yugoslavia. simultaneously with democratic forces and tiers disappear. Yugoslav boundary is a small, local problem Nothing is more boresome than a man with a clique more interested in opposing del Vayo-Everywhere. which can be solved with no difficulty if who speaks of his past. But in this case I the Partisans than the Germans. One must Vlavianos-There is no reason to fear any common sense prevails among the leaders beg to point out that I have not reached choose and, therefore, I am very much for revolution if the people are left to them of the two neighboring nations and if for- this opinion recently. I expressed the same the recognition of the Liberation Front selves · to establish a popular democratic. eign powers (in order to play the death- views in 1914 and I upheld them during the everywhere-not' only from the point of government. The democratic forces in the dealing game .of the balance of power in a war and during the peace negotiations. The view of democracy but even from the point country are the only forces able to maintain disorganized Europe) do not offer to one Italian Nationalists changed my name from of view of conducting the war intelligently, order. We have a wonderful examf>le of what belongs to another. "Salvemini" to "Slavemini.'' This was the of waging effective political warfare. that in the Greek island of Samos, already · In this connection I beg to tell you a greatest honor that could come to me in my \ Salvemini-Our "realists" teach us that' _liberated. Its people have created a local short story. Once a c@nvention of tlie Amer- life. And now I am glad that I can ~till we "are interested in winning the war and self-government more than able to main ican l'ederation of Labor was held in Phila- uphold that old idea of mine-which is but not in helping revolutionary movements; tain order and discipline. The same thing ,' delphia. After two days of discussion an an idea cherished · by Mazzini and . all we are not concerned with fascists or anti will happen in the rest of the country if Italian worker named Lo Casto obtained patriots of the Italian Risorgimento. fascists." To be sure, America's and Britain's there is no pro-fascist interference. · the floor and said: "Mr. Chairman, in this When we come to the cities of Gorizia job is winning the war and not importing Dolivet-Mr. Davila was unfortunately convention everybody talks 'brothers and and Trieste and their districts and to West anti-fascist revolutions into Continent~! unable to attend our round table. But sisters' and 'sisters and brothers' and every- ern !stria the matter is not as clear. This Europe. But America and Britain must in talking with us he has often expressed body is a damned liar.'' Let us not talk is neither a pure Italian nor a .pure s·lavic realize that by winning the war they dis similar sentiments so far as Rumania is con brothers and sisters. Let us come down section. It is bi-national, Italo-Slavic terri credit fascist regimes everywhere in the cerned. In his opinion democratic revolu from the stratosphere of abstract generaliza- tory. Four hundred thousand Italians are defeated countries and thus make anti tions will be the main factor l«;ading to the tions to business. Let us put all our cards gathered in the cities and towns and 400, fascist revolutions inevitable. · When· they establishment of peaceful cooperation in on the table. Let us keep in mind that if 000 Slavs are scattered all over the country endeavor to avoid revolutions which they Central and Southeastern Europe. deniocratic good will is indispensable to side and filter into the cities and towns. themselves are making inevitable they are Mr. Adamic, will you begin the discus solve boundary problems (and all prob- Trieste has 240,000 Italian inhabitants and sabotaging their own war effort and their sion of the matter of boundaries? lems) a good solution would enhance dem- 60,,000 Slavs. Most of the Slavs live in the own victories. They cannot eat their cake _ Adamic- There is quite a question as to ocratic good . will whereas wrong solutions . suburbs. It is useless to expect a Serbian ar'id have it too. They cannot make the the drawing of boundaries-in the north would wreck good will on both sides. I general and an Italian general to agree on omelette without breaking the eggs. They west with reference to Italy and in the north wish Yugoslavia and Italy would form a the solution of this or any other problem. Zollverein (and I hope they will), so that f · can only choos~ between keeping anti-fascist with reference to Austria. A great many boundaries between them lose all economic I they agreed they would be jobless, for revolutions between democratic embank Yugoslavs are deeply exercised about it. there would no longer be any reason to significance - so that one might go from ments or compelling all anti-fascist forces to Without exception the Yugoslavs, whether . fight or any need for armies to fight. Rather T neste to Lublijana and vice versa just as join communist revolutions everywhere out Left ot Right, want a reconsideration of one goes . from Newark, New Jersey, to than agree on an ~quitable solution each of despair. the whole area. It may be, however, that New Haven, Connecticut, traversing New would prefer to become victims of an act Kosanovich-T-he !Jberation front move the Liberation Front and the Italians are York State without realizing one has crossed of injustice so as to keep alive in his own ment in Yugoslavia offers the best example automatically solving the question. Recent two frontiers. But the question of boun- country "the spirit of revenge." But we of that very thing (and when I speak of events in Yugoslavia, as between the Yugo daries remains to be settled-even if they are do not need to resort to generals. We know Yugoslavia I think also of Bulgaria). Yugo slav Liberation Front and the Partisans on no longer to be political and economic but that the Serbian Prime Minister, Pachich, slavia had its own terrible Quislings who the one hand and the Italian divisions on merely administrative. A Slovene or Croat while strongly objecting to the plan of worked to obstruct unification or any resur the other, might indicate that they are. I has to know whether he must pay his taxes handing Dalmatia to Italy, repeatedly ad rection of Yugoslavia. But through the believe the Balkan question (and a1so the to an Italian administration which is free mitted in 19 l 4 and l 9 l 7 that Trieste and people's movement we are solving this prob question of the relation of the Balkans to to spend his money to support Italian rather Istria should go to Italy. We know that in lem. In that movement we have no Cath Italy) can be solved only upon a Leftist than Slovene or Croat schools. An Italian 1915, during the negotiations leading to olic question:, we have no Moslem question, level-that is, it can only he· solved by has to know whether he must pay his taxes the ill-starred Treaty of London, the Rus we have no Serbo-Croatiap, no Yugoslavian, Leftists or at least by·people who are honest. to a Slav administration which is free to sian Foreign Minister, Sazonoff, while vigor no Italian question. · .The underground Vlavianos-Democratic. support Slovene and Croat rather than ously protesting against the claim of the 10 11 Italian Government to Dalmatia never tion. That is farther than any spokesman raised the least objection. to Italian claims of Italian interests has gone: LG A .R ] A to Istria. Even more telling is the fact that Salvemini-It has been opened by the during the Peace Conference of 1919 Presi- war, not by me. . dent Wilson and his experts, who were not Adamic-1 should like to address the fol at all biased in favor of Italy, qrew a boun- lowing remarks to Profr;ssor Salvemini di dary between Italy and Yugoslavia that rectly. The fascist Italian ·forces occupying awarded Gorizia, Trieste and Western !stria Slovenia, Dalmatia, Montenegro and other to Italy. At that time I was of the opinion parts of Yugoslavia have .perpetrated enor that Wilson was right. Today I maintain mous crimes under Mussolini's leadership. that Wilson was and still is right, even if Dolivet-All Fascists have done that. Mr. Churchill, Mr. Roosevelt and Stalin Adamic-I'm not raising this question to are of a different opinion.· National situa- make it difficult for anybody at this table. tions are permanent and national justice I'm just making the point that .fascist Ital does not depend on military victories or ians have razed 157 Slovenian villages, to defeats. I am so deeply persuaded the Wil- mention no others. That destruction 'is son Line should be adopted by any fair- going to remain a subjective political factor minded expert that I should not hesitate with the people of Slovenia; and it will be to propose that the dispute be brought be- extremely difficult to erase enough of that fore a committee of international umpires, subjective factor to make Slovenia ready to these 'men to take into account all factors · collaborate with the postwar Italian nation. in the case and reach their decision along I'd like to ask Dr.'Salvemini if he has any the lines of common sense. A decision idea how some sort of morally satisfactory T I A arrived at by international arbitrators restitution could be made; would harm nobody's prestige and would Radit8a-As a Yugoslav from Croatia I be rejected only by nationalist gangsters. should like to add that Italian Fascists did If Italians and Yugoslavs were wise enough immense damage to the Croatian people they would settle this matter among them- in Croatia and in Dalmatia, destroying, selves and then go before the representa- - burning and razing hundreds of villages tives of the great powers and tell them to and killing men, women and children. The min~ their own- business. All other local Italian people will have to take into ac problems between neighboring countries in count the sufferings of these Croatian Europe should be similarly solved. Will people. this happen? I am not at all hopeful. - Salvemini-You asked a good question, Adamic-1 have profound admiration and Mr. Adamic, and I'll answer it in the same respect for l;'rofessor Salvemini. I had it direct way that you ask it. There is no before I met him and since I've met him doubt that within the limits of human pos MAP 1-Shows the successful stages of Turkish MAP 3-Populations shown are from the it has been deepened into a personal feel- sibility there is a moral duty to make domination in the Balkans and in Southern League of Nations Staiisiical Year Book '1940-41 ing. I'm loathe to say anything which might reparation for the damage done to those · Russia. ·and are estimates for the year : 1940 for Bul Stippled area: Lost by Turks in 1699-} 792 garia; 1931 for Yugoslavia; 1939 for Greeee; seem to be in disagreement with him. \I unfortunate people-not by the Italian peo Horizontal shading: lost by Turks in 1830-1882- want, however, to say that if after this war . pie but by the fascist gangsters- 1908 1939 for Albania. For Romania and Hungary we operate in the same atmosphere in which Adamic-Who happen to be Italians. Oblique shading: lost by Turks in 1913 figures are taken from the Statesman's Year book for 1939 and 1938 respectively. All fig these problems were created at the end of Salvemini-If Yugoslav Fascists had hap- Vertical shading: lo.st by Turks in 1921/23 Source: W. R. Shepherd and I. Bowman ures are in millions. the last war, even men as close to each other pened to act in Italy they would have acted as Dr. Salvemini and I will .not be able to in . the same way. But the fact is that the . All boundaries, except for Map 1, are those of post World War I. get a.long. There is need of a new atmos- havoc has been wrought by Italian fascists, phere-and this can come into being only and within the limits of human possibilities with the encouragement of the democratic reparations should be made for the evil . or what I call the Leftist- forces. done. What reparations? Italy has no gold your own judgment. Then something could for raw materials and labor. When the pro- · However, because we are still living in and cannot pay in gold. If you want paper be done even from the material point of ceeds from this confiscation were exhausted, the insane atmosphere created by the first money you will be given as much as you view. If Italy has no gold, no coal, no iron, reparations would come to an end. Let the World "\Var, I want to say this for the want. The only freedom of the press in no timber, she has labor. Other countries responsible people pay-and not the Italian record: from the point of view of Slovenia fascist Italy was the printing of paper cur could supply raw materials and Italy could people as a whole. All decent men and and Yugoslavia the territory occupied by rency. Yet, first of all, moral reparation use her labor to build ships, to be handed women in Italy are ashamed of what has Italy is considerable, although it may not is available. The King of Italy, Mussolini, over to Greece and Yugoslavia as a token of happened in Greece and Yug0slavia. I am seem considerable from Italy's point of all his ministers and all the highest mili good will. Starting with the properties of sure they would agree to such a plan or view. tary and civil officials who acted as agents the King and Ciano, the properties of those something of the same kind. I am profoundly grateful to Professor of the fascist government in Slovenia, Dal responsible for the havoc in Greece and Hane - What do you think about using SaJvemini for going so far as to say he matia and Greece must be handed over to Yugoslavia should be confiscated. From the Italian labor for building roads? would be willing to open the entire ques- you. Yo~ can deal with them according.to proceeds the Italian Government would pay Salvemini-Everywhere there are workers 12 ~ u capable of building roads. You'd have un countries .should make reparation. the Bulgarian Fascists have done. I can as Kosanovich-If we put a stop to the rev employment among your workers if Italian Dolivet-Gentlemen, may I, first of all, on sure the Greeks that the majority of the olutionary movement we'll never solve the forced labor were imported into your own behalf of the chair, pay tribute to the dem- Bulgarian peasants disapprove. problems of the Balkans. The reconstruc countries. . ocratic way in which both Mr. Adamic and Vlavianos - Unfortunately. they've done tion not merely of the Balkans but of the Adamic-I believe Italy has machinery. Mr. Salvemini have approached the solution n,othing to demonstrate their disapproval. postwar world must be carried out not by Salvemini-What machin'ery? Milan and of a difficult problem-one in which a strong Sharenkoff-They have done something diplomats but by men of the people en Turin have· been destroyed. What Amer emotional factor is involved because of and they will do more. dowed with vision and revolutionary cour ican and British bombers do not destroy the cruelties which have been committed. Vlavianos-Let us hope they will. age. the Germans destroy or take away as they I think their approach is an example of Sharenkoff-The Bulgarian Underground Vambery- Exactly. If we support the retreat. the new kind of diplomacy we have been asks the Greek people to unite with them democratic revolutionary forces the ques Adamic-We could use Italian trucks and suggesting. I'm sure that if both these gen in a struggle against the common enemy. tion of borders will be solved easily. other vehicles. These might help in the tlemen could be at the peace table the Bulgaria's first problem is to free the coun Salvemini-The new atmosphere muss be work of reconstruction . . The Yugoslavs problems would be solved. try from the Nazis. After that we can work created. Without it nothing will be solved. don't want everything. One thing I should like to say about on other things which are more important. But once this atmosphere is created, justice _ Salvemini-Do you mean to take away the reparations because the basic principles of These underground forces are going to must prevail within it. And if justice is trucks and vehicles of the Italian farmers? a democratic international policy are in solve the Macedonian question very easily. absent the a·tmosphere will vanish. It is not Remember that we i;nust take the working volved. We of FREE WORLD don't believe If they are in power there will be no enough to want to be free. It is necessary people on both sides inFo account. Europe very strongly in reparations. Our experience Macedooian problem. also to be just. Freedom and justice are will be a heap of ruins when this war is with them in the past was a bad one. I'd Vfavianos-There is no Macedonian prob interlocked. over. Every country will be terribly impov say that there should be a pooling of all lem now. Adamic-If there is a democratic atmos erished: No country will possess fat enough resources and all capacities to rebuild every Sharenkoff-If the reactionary forces are phere it wi.Jl be unimportant just where for other countries_ to live .on. And Italy where, particularly in the devastated coun in control there will be- boundary lines are drawn. We come back has never been renowned as a fat country. tries. to a matter brought up at the beginning Kosanovich - With a united, federated, Let us look at realities and discard dreams. of the discussion-to the Leftist democratic Adamic-I'd say that that is all right. truly democratic Yugoslavia the greatest If, when you talk of reparations, you mean Dolivet-There should be a common ef forces. These will soften attitudes and cre part of the nationalist probleJllS of the Bal that 400,000 Italians of Gorizia and Trieste fort and a common fund. But we don't ate an atmosphere in which discussion kans - Serbo - Croatian~ Serbo - Bulgarian, and Wes tern !stria should be handed ·over such as the one we have had here-will want to begin again on the basis of pure Macedonian, Italian, Yugoslavian - will be to Yugoslavia as cattle, I firmly hold that reparations because if we do .we'll provoke become possible. solved. such an idea should be altogether discarded. another war. Vlavianos - The democratic atmosphere Vlavianos-.The essential point is that, to Hane - The Russian Governinent made Adamic-Think of the new atmosphere. will not automatically solve the problems. the limit of -their ability, Italy and the Axis the same proposal in 1917. They wanted Sharenkoff-The Macedonian question But it will furnish better methods for re Belgium reconstructed by means of an inter has been a question exploited by dynasties solving them. national fund to which every country on and th~ great powers. Foreign powers have, Vambery-The discussion has entered a both sides of the table would contribute. for instance,. encouraged the Bulgarian phase which is not ·only undesirable but Salvemini-At that time there was only dynasty-and have always come to its rescue. brings us no nearer the crucial problem the problem of Belgium. Today the whole There will be no Macedonian question if -namely, what's going to happen to the of Europe is involved. I am afraid we must democratic elements are in control and if Balkans? Should there be one federation, · give up the idea of "pooling all resources." they get the cooperation of the other Bal- two federations or no fe~eration at all? Just When the war is over, America alone will kan countries. I think the democratic saying that this or that country shall be still have resources to pool-although Amer elements are in power now - Greek and independent and democratic is but wishful ica also will be impoverished. "Pooling of Yugoslav Partisans are working with Bul- thinking-it's not enough to secure ·inde- all resources" means asking America to garian Partisans. pendence and democracy. place her remaining resources at the serv Vlavianos-Have you any information Raditsa-Mr. Vambery is right in asking ice of Europe. I foresee that when the about that? I've not been able to find any what the future of the Balkans will be. The war is over the people of the United States important cooperation there. The p-rospect Balkan Pact, and the Balkan Conferences will refuse to sink more billions of dollars looks gloomy. It seems that the Bulgarian heid between 1929 and 1935, did not bring in European relief. Each country will have population - the peasants - have worked mutual security fo the Balkans. They didn't to heal i_ts own wounds, accepting for years against the Greeks and the Yugoslavs be- conserve Balkan neutrality or unity in the and years a lower standard of living. Let cause they have felt it to their interest to ·war against. the Axis. Officially Bulgaria everyone face this terrible prospect with dislodge the Greeks from this part of the was excluded from the Balkan Pact. Albania fortitude. Balkans. was too weak to oppose Italy and remained Dolivet-Mr. Sharenkoff,· will you com Sharenkoff-A year ago-in June 1942-I a springboard for Italian expansion in the ment on the matter of boundaries? heard from a friend of mine. in Bulgaria. Balkans. In the Balkan Conferences held Sharenkoff - Bulgaria is directly con He described the attitude of the Bulgars in Athens, Istanbul, Bucharest and Salonika cerned. I agree with Mr. Adamic that the toward the Serbians. He said the Bulgars the Bulgarians were always highly absorbed people's movement is making it easier to disliked policing in Yugoslavia. Many sol- in their own petty national matters: The 1 solve the question of boundariei;. The Bul diers were joining the Partisans. Greeks were preoccupied with the possi- garian Fascists have done great harm to the Dolivet-Do you gentlemen think the Bal- bility of achieving union between Bulgaria Greek population. We must admit this. The kan conflicts .can be solved by reconstruction and Yugoslavia. They were afraid of a Victor Sharenkoff Bulgarian people of course condemn what and by resort to arbitration and plebiscites? South Slav Federation. 14 15