Craig Blessing Interview Transcript (PDF)

Craig Blessing Interview

GF: Okay. The date is November 14, 2018. My name is Gabrielle Funk. I am interviewing Craig Blessing.

CB: On November 14, 2018, my name is Craig Blessing, being interviewed by Gabrielle Funk. My name is Craig Blessing; C-R-A-I-G, B-L-E-S-S-I-N-G.

GF: And you spell my name G-A-B-R-I-E-L-L-E, F-U-N-K. Okay. When and where were you born?

CB: I was born in Friona, Texas, a small town between Lubbock and Amarillo on [Unintelligible 00:00:46] 1, 1974.

GF: Where did you move next?

CB: Moved to Dallas just before my fifth birthday. Or Dallas area. Lived there until I was in college. And then moved away from there officially to Kansas City in 1998. So 20 years ago.

GF: For a job?

CB: My mother moved for a job and I was going to go back to school for my Master's degree. And so she offered me the opportunity to live in the basement of the house without paying rent, so I said okay [laughter].

GF: This is a good one: Tell me a little bit about your parents or your family background.

CB: [Coughs] I have a very small family. So I am an only child. My mom has a brother and a sister, but the brother is not really around much and hasn't been most of my life. And kind of estranged, even, from the sister. So I have lots of friends that have big families and they get together for holidays and there's, like, 50 people. And we get together for the holidays and there's, like, seven. So it's very small and intimate. And being an only child, I really had a good relationship with my family.

My mom was different. She wasn't super overprotective, but she wasn't just let me go and do whatever I want, either. She did a lot of letting me learn, make mistakes and learn from those. And she didn't want to put a lot of training wheels on that. So one of the things she always said was that, "I'm not going to be around forever and I'm not going to be able to guide you in everything. So you need to figure out how to do these things and use the resources around you." So that was kind of great.

It's a very interesting thing being from Texas: Most of my family, extended family, whether it's my stepfamily or my blood family, are on the more conservative side, many of them on the conservative Christian side, which doesn't always go nicely, in either category, with being gay. So it's one of those things that, until very recently, we just

don't talk about. Like, politics just isn't something that we talk about. And if it comes up, we just change the subject. And it's one of those things that has been that way to keep people from arguing.

GF: Yeah. To save relationships.

CB: Yeah.

GF: Hm-hmm [affirmative]. When did you know you were gay?

CB: Early. I knew very early on that something was different. And was kind of the arts kid and overachieving. And looking back at it, there were a lot of things that I did so that I didn't have to deal with this. You know, I did every possible thing in my school. I was probably one of the most active kids in my school, which I find, you know, for a lot of young, gay kids, especially young, gay men, is that way; that we overachieve so we don't have to date, we don't have time to date. And so because we don't have time to date, we don't have to explain why we're not dating someone. So that was a thing, for sure. But I came out to the fist person when I was 17.

GF: Who was that?

CB: A friend of mine at school, at college. Well, I was 18 when I told her, but I had kind of told myself between 15 and 17. There wasn't really a time when I can say, "This was the moment." But I told her. And she didn't say anything, but somehow somebody in my dorm heard. And suddenly, it wasn’t me and her, it was everybody on the floor and then everybody in the building. And even though I was at Texas A&M that's, you know, one of the most conservative public schools in Texas, I felt so much support. Like, so much support.

Friends of mine from high school, the biggest reaction I got was that they were angry that I didn't tell them before; that they felt that I couldn't trust them enough to do that. And, like, "All of this time, you weren't able to tell me. I'm angry at you for not feeling that you could trust me for that."

But it really came at a point where I just got tired. I was so tired all the time because I was one person with my gay friends. And I didn't want them to know too much about me because they might know somebody that I knew who wasn't gay and they might say something. And I was a different person with my straight friends because I didn't want them to know that I knew any gay people because in Texas A&M it literally could be, "Oh, you know somebody gay? You must be gay." "Oh, you must be queer if you know somebody like that."

But neither of those was me. I was never able to be me because I was so afraid of somebody else knowing. I just got tired. And I woke up one morning, I'm, like, "I can't do this. I can't be this anymore. So I'm not going to do this." And I told somebody and,

you know, quietly came out of the closet for a bit. And then ripped that door off and went right—Oh, it was crazy.

GF: To your friends first, your family second?

CB: Yeah. My family was definitely—I never felt like they wouldn't support me, but I was afraid. Right before I told my mom, I had had somebody that had told his father and his father packed his stuff and told him to move to California with the rest of his kind and never come back. And I was terrified of that. And I think back, and it still makes my palms sweat, the way that I thought about that situation.

I was dating someone. And we had been together for a year-and-a-half, my parents had met them, and we split. And I was devastated. First love. You know, we lived together. Like, devastated. And I called my mom. And I couldn't even talk. And she's, like, "Are you okay?" And I'm, like, "No, I'm not. Just got out of a relationship." And she's, like, "With whom?" And I'm, like, "With Scott."

And she was quiet for what felt like 10 minutes. She goes, "Can you come home this weekend?" I said, "I can't. I have to work." She goes, "Okay. I will be there tomorrow."

GF: Wow.

CB: And she took off work. She came up. We stayed in a hotel room and laughed and cried and talked and drank beer and, you know, laughed and cried some more. And at the end of it, she said, "I may never understand it and I may never fully accept, but I love you and you're my only son and I will always love you."

GF: Aww.

CB: And at the time, that was all I needed. You know, that's what I needed. And it didn't matter if she accepted or understood, just that she loved me. And over time, we invited her—You know, some friends of mine were throwing a party and we invited her to it, before a football game. And she pulled me aside afterward and she goes, "I think things have changed." And I was ready, like, because so many of my friends were having this issue of, like, family not accepting. I was ready to pack my stuff and move and, you know be alone. That was fine.

And she goes, "I think I understand. I get it." And this was, you know, my sophomore year in college—junior year, maybe. She's, like, "These kids are no different than any other kids. They want somebody to know that they love them. Whatever that is. They want to know that somebody loves them. And why can't we do that?" And that became a thing for my mom. And she's now been to a Pride parade. She's gone to a gay bar with me. And she literally adopts anybody that needs—I've told people, you know, "I'm going to my family for Christmas." They're, like, "Oh, yeah, my family's out of town." I'd say that to my mom and she's, like, "Bring them. They cannot be alone, by themselves, on a holiday."

GF: Aww.

CB: "Just bring them." And that's just how she is, so.

GF: Is your dad still in your life?

CB: No. My father and I have a very complicated relationship. My parents split when I was in the fifth grade and my father moved to Tennessee. And I saw him regularly. But most of my friends didn't see him, didn't know him. And my senior year of high school, my father came down for graduation. And I was proud of where I was. I ended up, like, 19th or 18th out of 900.

GF: Wow.

CB: Was a National Merit Scholar. Full ride to Texas A&M. You know, I was proud of where I was. Sang a solo at my graduation. I was very excited for my friends to meet my dad because most of them had not met. And the ones who had hadn't seen him in five years. And I had this group of people who went with me because I was so excited to introduce him. And I don't know what I expected when I walked up. You know, a "Congratulations. I'm proud of you," a hug, something. The first words out of his mouth were, "Why'd you let two gooks beat you?"

GF: Two what?

CB: "Gooks."

GF: Oh, God.

CB: The valedictorian and salutatorian in my class were both Vietnamese. And they were there.

GF: Wow.

CB: And that was the first words out of his mouth.

GF: No "I'm proud of you," no nothing.

CB: Yeah. And I was just—

GF: Appalled?

CB: Appalled.

GF: Yeah.

CB: Devastated. And I didn't have to tell anybody. My friends just—two of them, you know, grabbed my arm, squeezed, and walked away. Everybody else just kind of disappeared. And I looked at him and I said, "First off, I don't ever let anybody beat me. They worked harder than I did and so they got what they deserved. Number one. And second, don't ever use that kind of language about one of my friends ever again in my presence. I don’t care what you do when you're by yourself, but not in front of me, and definitely not in front of them." And I walked away.

GF: Wow.

CB: And he kind of apologized. Kind of.

GF: That day?

CB: Later.

GF: Later.

CB: You know, it was a couple hours later. And so I went up to visit for that summer, which I did every year. And my dad had remarried in a surprise ceremony that I was supposed to be a part of, and then I got a phone call that said that they had gotten married while I was not there.

GF: Intentionally?

CB: I don’t know. You know, we haven't ever talked about it. And I went to visit. And while I was there, he went out of town for a couple of days for business. And so my stepmom and my stepbrother—and I was super excited because I finally had a brother— literally did not say a single word to me for three days except that I had a phone call or that dinner was ready.

GF: So at the dinner table, wouldn’t talk to you.

CB: Zero words.

GF: Wow.

CB: And I had no idea what was going on. And when I find out, my stepbrother was dating this girl that we were friendly. Like, just got along well. And he told my stepmom that I was trying to steal his girl. And nobody asked me anything about it. And I'm homo. So obviously, not trying to steal his girlfriend. But they didn't know.

But when my father got back, he took their side. He didn't even listen to what I was trying to say. And I was supposed to be there for six weeks and I left after two. And that was the last time I spoke to him. And I talked to him in 1996.

GF: That was the last time? Wow.

CB: And then when I went back here for an English class at [unintelligible 00:14:12], we had a paper that we were supposed to write about family for a thing. And I wrote my paper. And it was this funny little piece about my stepfamily on my stepfather's side. And I went to the professor the day it was due and I said, "I need an extension." She just didn't do that. She's, like, "Why?" And I kind of told her a very brief "I haven't spoken to my father since I graduated high school, basically, and I came home yesterday and his name was on my [unintelligible 00:14:49]. I need an extension." She goes, "You take the time you need." And so we did that.

And I had taken a paper that I had written about something else called, "Walk Like a Man" about coming out and that sort of thing. And I was so angry at that point. And I rewrote it and it was titled, "I Hate That Man." There were so many things that came out of that. I wrote overnight, like, six pages of this thing, just lots of things that had all built up and how selfish my father had been about a lot of stuff. And turned it in, got an A.

But beside the point. I took that and I turned it into a letter to him. And I went through. And at the end of it, I said, "As you can probably guess after reading this, I am gay and always have been gay, and I always will be gay. Do not insult me by telling me I just need to pray or I need to fast or I need to go to church or any of those things. At this point, I am too angry to speak to you. If you want to write, here's my e-mail address and here's my physical address."

And it was folded up in an envelope. And I went to the mail box at the post office. And it was a day when it was closer and it was evening, anyway. And a friend of mine was there. And I literally could not let go of the envelope. Like, I had it in the slot. Like, could not let go of it. I was sobbing. And my friend just put his hand on my back and said, "You do what you need to do. If you don't want to send that, you don't have to." And I said, "I have to," and I let go of it. And it was like all of that went away.

GF: Like a weight was off your shoulders?

CB: Yeah. It was a moment of deep catharsis of it. And I still get very emotional about it, you know, because I have so many friends that have such amazing relationships with both of their parents and I don’t. And I don't know that I want to, you know. And I feel bad about that. Like, I feel bad that I don’t care to have a relationship with him. So that was in, what, 1999, 2000.

GF: Did he ever call or respond?

CB: Nothing.

GF: Wow.

CB: Until this year on my birthday.

GF: This year.

CB: Yeah.

GF: Wow.

CB: He sent a message and he said, "I'm sorry for all the stupid things that I've done. I hope you have a happy birthday." That was it.

GF: Wow. Do you know if he's still married?

CB: I would assume. And I haven't reached back out. Like, it was a moment when all of those feelings suddenly came back. And there was so much in there of, "What's happening? Why is he doing this?" Because the only thing that kept coming to mind is he's dying.

GF: Wow.

CB: He's dying and he just wants to clear his conscience so he can get into his heaven. And I don't know that I want to let him off for that. There's times when I want to e-mail and say, "If you are messaging me because you truly think that you made bad decisions and you want to tell me that I'm your child and that you love me, great. If you want to do this so you can clear your conscience so you can feel better about the things that you did that were wrong, I don’t care. I'm not here to help absolve you."

GF: Yep. Did that ruin your birthday?

CB: It was very interesting. Like, I had a conversation with a friend of mine. And she goes, "What a dick."

GF: [Laughs] Right?

CB: "He took a day that was supposed to be all about you and made it all about him. That's a shitty thing to do. Couldn't he have waited a day?"

GF: Yeah.

CB: And I was, like, "Yeah, he could have. But that's not him."

GF: So if you found out he had passed or was really sick, would that change anything? Would you reach out?

CB: Maybe. You know, I would probably go for the funeral if he passed [coughs]. If I found out about it. I mean, he was in a pretty severe motorcycle accident. Punctured a lung.

Broke four ribs. Broke his leg and an arm. And I didn't find out about it until six months after he was in the hospital.

GF: Wow. Yeah.

CB: My grandmother passed away and I didn't find out about it until a week after she died.

GF: On his side?

CB: Hm-hmm [affirmative].

GF: Wow.

CB: And that was just because another family member let me know.

GF: Yeah.

CB: Not from him. Not from my stepmother. But another aunt. So I don't know, you know.

GF: Did coming out to your mom, was that everything? You couldn't have asked for more? She handled it in the best way?

CB: Yeah. I mean, everyone wants this fairytale kind of ending of things, you know, that it's going to happen and your mom's going to be, like, "You're amazing and I love you and I want to meet your boyfriend," and all of that. And that's not the reality.

You know, I think we talked about this, but Love, Simon, the movie, that was an important movie to have somebody that was a gay main character with his story. But his story was not the normal story. His story was the best-of-all-worlds ending. He got the guy. His friends all loved him. His family embraced him. His teachers stood up for him. That doesn't always happen. And it happens more often than it used to, but that's still not the normal story.

GF: Right.

CB: There's a lot of times when you don't have the people who stay. You lose people. You lose family. You have teachers that make fun of you. Like, that still is common.

GF: Is that why you think you waited to come out until after high school?

CB: Well, possibly, looking back at it. But I mean, that was also, you know, a long time ago. I graduated in 1992, which is crazy. But you know, that's 26 years ago. That's crazy. I mean, at the time, I didn't even have Will and Grace to see a normal gay character on TV. So what I had, what I saw on the news, were drag queens, go-go boys and Dykes with Bikes, lesbians on motorcycles. That's what I saw.

GF: There weren't any big influences, were there? The first one I can remember is Ellen.

CB: Ellen was around. But even that, like, she came out on her show and her show was canceled. Like, there was a lot of negative feeling about that. And there were gay characters on TV. You know, there were a lot of them that were around, but they were always stereotypical parts. They were the hairdresser, the interior designer. They were very feminine or very butch dykes. You know, it was not, "Here's the doctor. Here's the lawyer. Here's the guy that's your neighbor. Here's the guy that is driving the cab." Like, it wasn't that. So all I saw were these stereotypes. So I didn't know what to do.

So yeah, I mean, there was part of that fear of, you know, losing family members. But I think that was much more realistic then. And again, maybe that tints the way that I see, like, that story, too. I had a good story. You know, was it perfect? Not quite. But I had a good story. I didn't lose friends. I didn't lose any family members that I hadn't lost for other things.

GF: Comparatively, yeah.

CB: Yeah.

GF: That's pretty good.

CB: So I'm okay with that. But yeah, I think that there was a lot of fear of [unintelligible 00:23:43].

But another thing that my father said that was another kind of ending because I was debating. Like, I hadn't even come out yet. And we were in the car and some article, news story came on about HIV and AIDS. And I don't even remember what it was [clears throat]. And again, in the early nineties, this was within 10 years of anybody knowing about it, but within five or six of people actually getting, like, since Ryan White that was in, like, 1986, you know, this is, like, the first time people were really talking about it. There was still so much stigma and misinformation. And my father says, "That's God's punishment for the homosexual."

GF: Wow.

CB: And I said, "What?"

GF: Hm-hmm [affirmative] [laughs].

CB: And he says, "Yeah, that's God's punishment." I'm, like, "Okay. Go back up. What about a child, a baby who's born HIV positive?" And he says, "That's the sins of the father, you know, visited on the son." And I was, like, "Okay. Well, I certainly hope you've paid for all of yours."

GF: Wow.

CB: And that was the piece that made me go home. And I think back now wishing that I could be as self-possessed as I am now to have that conversation then and not have felt so overwhelmed and scared and ashamed and sad. I mean, I wasn't positive back then. I mean, I was fresh out of high school, which is not saying that that's not happening now.

GF: Is that when you first heard about AIDS? When did you first know what it was?

CB: About HIV and AIDS?

GF: Hm-hmm [affirmative].

CB: Oh, I was in a fairly progressive school. So I mean, we talked about it. You know, being an honors kid and being in AP sciences and wanting to go into biological sciences, that was a thing that we talked about quite often. And because there's two things that I remember very clearly from, like, the end of my elementary school days, is the Challenger explosion and Ryan White. Those two things kind of happened at the same time. So having a kid who died of HIV and AIDS from a blood transfusion was devastating because it could happen to anybody. And not that it was just a thing for the gays.

And I mean, it was a really scary time. I mean, it was, what, three or four years before Reagan would even say HIV or say AIDS. At all. And it was called the gay cancer. And it was called so many things. And there are people that I know now who have lost everyone they knew, you know, everyone their age. There's, like, five left out of their friends. And that's just scary.

GF: When did you find out you were positive?

CB: I found out about 12 years ago.

GF: When were you born?

CB: I was born in '74.

GF: So that makes you—

CB: I'm 44 now. And I was diagnosed after 30.

GF: What was that like?

CB: I had done so much research and so much stuff—

GF: [Overtalk] You were prepared?

CB: —about HIV that I didn't ever have that moment of "I'm going to die." I didn't have that time. A lot of people who find out they're positive, they have that, you know, going to a really kind of dark and deep depression of "I'm going to die." And I had enough friends and enough people that I knew in the medical industries and in the gay community that I never felt that. Like, literally, I remember telling somebody, "Well, I've been saying that I need to not drink as much and not smoke and get healthier. Now, I guess I really do," you know.

So I didn't go on meds right away and I don't know why. Like, that was the part that scared me more was the meds because I knew how hard they can be on the system. And then I started dating someone. And I was, like, "Yeah, I need to do this." Because I realized that this is my life. And if I don't get it under control and I don’t get onto meds, then I really could die.

And there was the depression portion, but it manifested in much different ways, in alcohol, drugs, all of those kind of things, so. Which is also why I could put that to why I was infected was those things.

GF: The bad decisions?

CB: Yeah.

GF: So now you're on meds? Did you start them, like, a year, two years after?

CB: I started not long. I mean, it was less than a year. And I had a great doctor at the time who put me onto a one-pill-a-day med. It was kind of new at the time. Or newer. And I just took a pill before I went to bed.

GF: Your mom knows?

CB: Hm-hmm [affirmative].

GF: Did you tell her right away? No. Was that hard?

CB: Yeah. That was harder than telling her I was gay.

GF: Yeah. It probably affected her a lot, too, [unintelligible 00:29:42]. Yeah.

CB: Yeah, effectively ending any chance of me having a child.

GF: Yeah.

CB: Yeah. It was hard. It's, again, something we just don't talk about. And that's okay, you know.

It's very interesting, though, as I think about it, there used to be a whole idea for me that I wouldn’t disclose until I had to. So I was sort of dating someone and we would go on several dates before I would tell him. And that's just not the way I do it anymore. Like, now, it's one of the first things that I'm, like, "Hey, I just need to let you know, I'm positive. If that's a problem, we're going to have a problem."

GF: [Laughs] Yeah.

CB: And in almost every case, what I get from that is, "Yeah, that doesn't bug me because I'm not an asshole."

GF: Wow.

CB: "I understand." Like, "I take my health"—Like, this is the other person saying, "I take my health seriously, but I know what happens."

But I used to feel like I needed to educate. Like, if somebody said, "No, we can't date," I felt like I needed to educate them that what they were thinking was not right. But I don't care anymore. Like, I don't want them to have bad information, but if they don't want to be with me because of that, that's their small mind.

And now having, you know, scientific backing of saying, you know, "Undetectable equals untransmittable. Like, this is the science. This is the science; that I am on antiretroviral medication, but I'm on regular. You know, not mixing anything with it. My viral ledge has been undetectable for 10 years. Probably, my health stats are probably better than yours [laughter] because I watch it a lot. So if you have that problem of that that still is a weird thing for you, that's the stigma that you need to work out your health, not for me. And I'm not going to be that person to help you do that."

GF: Yeah. And it's also not your job to educate, also.

CB: Right. Like, I do feel like there are things what I need to educate because if you look at statistics now, the number one group being infected are 24-year-old kids because they don't think they can get it anymore. I'm, like, it's still a thing, it's still out there. And when somebody tells me, "Oh, I don't have sex with or date somebody who's positive," I'm, like, "You have. They just didn't tell you." [Laughter] I mean, that's the realistic thing of it is that you have, you just didn't know it.

GF: I wish people were more honest.

CB: "And many of those people, they didn't tell you because they don't know, because they don't know their status. So I don't care what you think or what you believe, just get tested."

GF: So is that what happened with you, you were going to the doctor or you just wanted to get tested? How did you find out?

CB: I got a call from somebody else of an STI scare. And because they reported it through the health department, I had to go in.

GF: Got you.

CB: And when they did that, they did a new check and that's when I found out. So not the best way to find out, but I mean, there's really no good way to find out. But it wasn't that thing where people, like, break down. Like, the woman asked me if I needed to talk to a counselor, I'm, like, "No, I'm okay." She's, like, "Are you sure?" I'm, like, "Yeah, I'm good. Like, I know that this is the reality of being a gay man, you know, coming out in the nineties that it could happen to anybody." And I started naming off the things. And she's, like, "Okay. You've got a good understanding. But if you emotionally need to have somebody to talk to," I'm, like, "I have a good support system."

And I told the girl that I was living with at the time, a good friend of mine, I told her that night. And she cried more than I did [laughter]. And she's, like, "I'm so sorry." I'm, like, "This is like diabetes. It's a manageable thing, but I can be fine." She goes, "But you shouldn't have to deal with this." Like, I shouldn't, but I do. And this is the thing. It is. It is what it is. Nobody should have to deal with diabetes, cancer, or any of those things, but we do. And this is it, so.

GF: You got lucky, though.

CB: I did.

GF: Have you lost a lot of people?

CB: I have not lost anybody from HIV complications that I know of. Like, that that's the reason that they died, that I know of. There are a couple people that I know who have accidental or intentional overdoses, suicides most likely, but won't ever really know, that I think that that plays a part of. But I don't know. You know, that wasn't something that they wanted to talk about.

So this is kind of like when somebody comes out, disclosure is not my choice for you. If you are HIV positive or you are gay, that's of your choice of when and how to disclose. If you want to tell me that, I am completely thankful and humbled that you trust me enough to do those things. But that's not my job to do. People come out at their own pace.

I think that everybody needs to come out. Like, if I were telling you, anybody that's gay and is in the closet, I think they just need to come out. It changes everything. It changes the world. If you look back, [unintelligible 00:35:42]. That's one of the things he said. It's, like, whoever you are, just come out. Come out. Whether you're a doctor or a lawyer, come out because the world needs to see that we are everywhere.

Just come out to everyone for whatever reason. Like, walk down the street and say, "Hey. by the way, I'm gay. Hey, you're my grocer, I'm gay." You know, whatever. Because you feeling that comfort level and you doing that inspires somebody else to feel confident and know that there are other people like them [unintelligible 00:36:11].

GF: Do you wish you had come out sooner?

CB: Yeah.

GF: Because all your high school friends said, "We wish you would have."

CB: Right. Yeah, I look back at that and I thought there were so many things—So I had a friend—a guy I knew; wouldn’t say he was a friend in high school; we weren't friends in high school, he is a friend now—who called me fag, faggot, queer, gay boy, fairy, pansy, all of the things all the time. And I was going to get that. I mean, I was in theater. I sang in the choir. I played in the orchestra. I was an arts kids.

But I was smart and I tutored all of the football players. So I didn't get a lot of that because if somebody started picking on me, the football player that I was helping to stay playing stepped in and said, "Hey, back off," you know. So I had that back then that I knew how to play in all of the things.

But there was this guy that just all the time. And those were devastating words because I didn't want to be that because this is what I saw that to be. And he messaged me several years ago on Facebook and said, "I just wanted to apologize. I was an ass because I was stupid and I didn't know and I'm sorry." And he was, like, "I think back. I think I was so insecure with myself that I took it out on you. And I'm so sorry for that. And I hope you can forgive me." And now we've become friends and we talk. He's, like, "I just think of what an amazing person you are and how much of that I missed because I was afraid of my own self." And so it was a, "I wish I could have had that."

Like, those are the things that I wish I could have done. But I look at kids now that are coming out in middle school and are fighting the system to take their boyfriend or girlfriend to prom. I wish I had been that courageous. Like, I wish I had done that. I wish I could have the other gay kid in my school to go to prom with me because there would have been so much different of how both of us lived the rest of our lives, so.

GF: That's so nice that he apologized.

CB: Yeah.

GF: That's a long time, you know, later, but—

CB: Yeah. Like, we had been in school together since second grade. So I've known him since 1982. Like, he's one of the people I've known longest in my life.

GF: And it's funny because you hadn't even come out yet.

CB: No.

GF: Yeah. He was just picking on you.

CB: Yeah.

GF: Wow. So insecure.

CB: You know, it still is an insult to call somebody, "You're so gay. Don’t be so gay." You know, fag. It's still an insult. And now I have these people that it's like somebody called me gay the other day and I said, "Thank you. Almost all of the people that I know who are amazing and beautiful are gay, so I count myself lucky to be in that group." And this is the guy that was calling me a fag, you know, in high school. And he's, like, "But I think about you when somebody else does that and how I did that to you and how that was such a shitty thing for me to do." So I'm, like, cool. I didn't come out, but I wish I could have. But I'm still making some changes, so that's good.

GF: And I think in that time period, you came out relatively early compared to other people, too, so—

CB: Right.

GF: —that's good. And for the most part, it was well received, so that's also good.

CB: So I have lots of people who are my age who got married, had kids. The last guy I dated, he had three boys. Was married for 12 years. Because that was what he was supposed to do.

GF: Right. So people like him, how do you think they find the courage to finally get a divorce and, you know—

CB: For him, I think it was just, like, "I can't do this anymore." He was incredibly depressed. Was taking it out on lots of things. His marriage was already suffering from other things but all stemming from that. So when he told her, it was very interesting because part of it was because of me. Like, he didn't come out to her, but it wasn't real. When we met, they were still technically married. Like, their divorce hadn't settled and was not for about four months after we started dating.

And so it was very strange, you know, being in central Kansas in a tiny 600-person town when I moved in with him. And I would go into the grocery store which was, you know, the size of a convenience store here, and, like, that grocery store was like the size of a [unintelligible 00:41:31] here. And I would walk in and I would hear somebody in the next aisle, "Oh, that's Mr. [Unintelligible 00:41:37] boyfriend." Like, everybody in town

knew who I was as soon as I walked in the door. It was very weird. Because he was well known. Was a school teacher. Had been in that school for 12 years.

GF: Were they gossiping or were they spewing hate?

CB: I never felt hate from any [unintelligible 00:41:56].

GF: Oh, that's good.

CB: So one of my favorite stories was, you know, I would often go up and help him grade papers and would be at the school because the school was literally across the street from us. And I would go over and help his do things. And I was there one day. And he taught fifth and sixth grade. And so it was the day girls and boys got separated, had the talk [laughs]. And the girls went in one room and the boys had already finished over here. And the girls had their bag of things that they got. And as, you know, sixth grade girls will do, they were very embarrassed by them and they were holding them very closely.

And one of the girls opened the door and stops and shuts the door and I hear, "We can't go in there. Mr. [Unintelligible 00:42:42] in there with his boyfriend." [Laughter] And it wasn't that Mr. [Unintelligible 00:42:49] had a boyfriend; it was that two guys were in there. And these are small town kids that are in central Kansas that is, overall, very conservative. And I don't think that we have a responsibility to be [unintelligible 00:43:13], but we are, whether we know it or not.

These kids are looking at us as the only thing that they know about the gay community. And I like to think that over the six years that we were together that some of those kids came out because they felt comfortable because they had somebody, that they knew that was like them, told somebody that it was okay to be different or something; that when their parents said that homos should burn, they said, "But not Mr. LaRoc [phonetic 00:43:45]."

GF: Aww.

CB: "Not Craig."

GF: Yeah.

CB: But that was the thing that we did and didn't know we were doing.

GF: Were you the only openly gay couple there?

CB: Oh, yeah.

GF: Yeah?

CB: Oh, yeah [laughs].

GF: That was the only example they had.

CB: Yeah.

GF: Wow. That's awesome.

CB: So I hope that that was the case.

GF: Yeah. Do you want to adopt?

CB: I don't know [laughs].

GF: You don't know [laughter]. "We'll see."

CB: You know, at this point, I'm going to be 45 next year. That's a pain. I don't know if I have the strength anymore [laughter].

GF: The patience?

CB: Yeah. I don't know if I can have a baby.

GF: Yeah.

CB: It would depend on whether or not we, you know, find the right person having the commitment to do that. Yeah, there's always a hope that I'd want to have something. I don't know anybody who doesn't want to be called Mommy or Daddy at all ever.

GF: Right.

CB: There are people that don't want to have kids and I can respect that. Being an only child makes it a little harder that I don't have nieces and nephews to dote on. So that's one of the things that whoever I end up with kind of going to have to have brothers and sisters so that I can [unintelligible 00:45:07]. But I don't know. I adopt my friends' kids. I'll be the gay uncle to them.

GF: The gay uncle [laughs]. [Unintelligible 00:45:15] the gay uncle [laughs].

CB: My best friend, sort of second woman that I was telling you about that I lived with when I found out, her sister has four kids. And when she was pregnant with the first one, I'm, like, "Would you adopt a gay uncle?" She goes, "Oh, no." And she goes, "No, no, no. You're going to be the Fairy God Uncle." And I was, like, [unintelligible 00:45:41].

GF: Aww.

CB: And so I have the youngest boy, there's a picture of us, like, sitting and reading together, and the caption on it says, "Cuddle time with his Fairy Godfather."

GF: Aww.

CB: And I'm just, like—

GF: That's so sweet. Thank you for letting me interview you.

CB: Of course.

GF: I learned so much about you.