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ANY QUESTIONS?

TX: 26/11/04 2000-2045

PRESENTER: Jonathan Dimbleby

PANELLISTS: Tim Collins Charles Moore Liz Lynne Denis Macshane

FROM: St John's School for the Deaf, Boston Spa

DIMBLEBY: Welcome to West Yorkshire and the town of Boston Spa and more especially the St John's School for the Deaf, which has an international reputation for developing to the full the potential of profoundly deaf children aged from 3 to 19. The school's unique approach seek to harness linguistic, academic and spiritual growth, which it does indeed to such effect that it's been rewarded with beacon status and in the new pilot work on the performance tables emerges at the very top of the national league.

On our panel: Denis MacShane was once a BBC sports journalist, then the boss of the National Union of Journalists, now he's the foreign officer minister at the heart of the controversy over the English cricket team's tour of Zimbabwe, as well as being the government's Europe minister.

Tim Collins was once director of communications for the Conservative Party. Then a member of the Number 10 policy unit, for which services he was rewarded with a CBE. He entered parliament in 1997 and as a close ally of Michael Howard he was summoned to the shadow cabinet in last summer's reshuffle to speak for his party on education.

Liz Lynne was re-elected in June to represent the Liberal Democrats in the . She's a member of the employment and social affairs committee and vice president of the what the Parliament is pleased to call its disability inter group.

Charles Moore is renowned as a writer and columnist and not least on , the paper that he edited from 1995 until last year when he resigned to work on the authorised biography of Margaret Thatcher. From the standpoint of the present leadership of the Conservative Party however he described Michael Howard as "fearless" in relation to Iraq "he may be thought to belong to the idiosyncratic wing for the movement. He's the fourth member of our panel. [CLAPPING]

Our first question please. Page 2 of 21

BUTTERWICK John Butterwick. How should the EU become involved in the precarious situation in the Ukraine?

DIMBLEBY Tim Collins.

COLLINS Well I think it's to be welcomed that there is for once almost unanimity in the Western world on this. We've heard declarations both from the British Foreign Secretary, from the European Union, from the US Secretary of State that the election results in the Ukraine cannot be allowed to stand as they are because the evidence that we have heard from the international observers, again from the European Union, and also from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe is emphatic that the election was deeply unsatisfactory. And Bruce George, who's a Labour MP, a man of immense experience in monitoring elections around the world, has talked of invisible ink being used on ballot papers, used in some opposition areas, he's talked of acid being thrown at ballot boxes in order to destroy some of those ballot papers. I think there's no doubt there needs to be collective international intervention to support a democratic outcome, a peaceful outcome, hopefully a negotiated outcome but we do need to bind the Ukraine in if that's what their people want but - I think that is what the majority of the people want - bind them in to the international community of the West. And remember the Ukraine is absolutely crucial to Europe's future, it is the place where the Second World War was decided.

DIMBLEBY Thank you. Liz Lynne.

LYNNE [CLAPPING] I believe the European Union has a very strong role to play in this and I'm very pleased that Javier Solana, the high representative for the European Union, is there at the moment helping to facilitate talks between the two challengers. I certainly hope that something's going to happen, that there is going to be a compromise somehow because if the news reports are right and there are troops moving in then the possibility of civil war in Ukraine would be horrendous. So we've got to find some solution. I think Javier Solana does a very good job in this sort of role. He's a very honest man. He is very open about what he wants to achieve and if he could achieve a solution I'm sure he is the one person in the EU that people really will trust. I know as well the Polish president is having a role, the Lithuanian president has tried to take a role in this as well and I congratulate all of them. And it is very important for all of us in the European Union and the world that this is got right for the sake of peace and stability in that region.

DIMBLEBY Charles Moore.

MOORE Well Liz says that Javier Solana is an honest man but I did hear an extraordinary thing this week when he said first of all that he had met members of the Hamas terrorist organisation secretly and then he said he hadn't. One of those answers must have Page 3 of 21 been wrong. I'm very glad that he is doing what he's doing in the Ukraine, I think that is a good use of a representative of the European Union and I think meeting representatives of Hamas is an extremely bad use of the European Union. The European Union or Europe, free Europe, does represent a beacon for people in the Ukraine who've voted and whose vote has been denied and it's extremely good that all of us from that side of Europe should be there trying to make sure that the real result is sustained and I think that that's what they're trying to do. I think the biggest danger here, it seems to me, is the influence of Russia and we have tended to think that Russia is alright now because Communism's over but of course President Putin was in the KGB, he retains that type of organisation and those type of methods. He tried to influence this result very strongly and I think we're going to find that more and more in the coming months and years that Putin's Russia is not a very happy nation to deal with. [CLAPPING]

DIMBLEBY … made of the fact that the Ukraine and the war were linked, can you see this historically as conceivably having the same trigger effect in terms of conflict that Ukraine had in the past?

MOORE Well I think …

DIMBLEBY If - if you're right, if President Putin is as strongly committed to Ukraine remaining within his orbit as we hear …

MOORE Well I hope not as much as in the past but yes I mean the Soviet Union dissolved under that name but its sense of its interests didn't. And the Russian influence over that part of the world remains and what President Putin is trying to do is to re- establish satellites who essentially support him in Ukraine and other surrounding states. This is a dangerous enterprise.

DIMBLEBY Minister.

MACSHANE I think what's happening in Ukraine is very, very important. The question was what is the EU doing? Well the EU there is present - Javier Solana - President Kwasniewski, speaking for all of us because imagine if we were 25 different responses to the Ukraine what a cacophony of uselessness that would be. And it's a paradox isn't it that while the Ukrainians by their hundreds of thousands are demonstrating saying they want into Europe, there are a lot of political forces here - I won't mention any parties - that want us out of Europe or detached from Europe. But I've been there, I've talked to a lot of the actors involved, I think they're serious on both sides, I don't think we should get into a simple one side is good, one side is bad argument. I think we're seeing another witness to democracy in Europe which is quite extraordinary. Fifteen years ago exactly, the November months of 1989 we had the fall of the Berlin Wall, I was in Prague last week to celebrate the 15th anniversary of the Velvet Revolution, 24 years ago I personally was in Poland with Solidarity as workers and the Poles there Page 4 of 21 stood up against Communist tyranny without really enough support from the West. I think our hearts are with every Ukrainian saying we want to decide our own president by our own means, we have to do it politically, we have to do it peacefully. And I have to say Charles, if you do it on the basis of a Cold War mentality - hostility to Russia - that's a way to make things worse. We want Ukraine to be Ukraine, we want Ukraine close to Europe and I want Britain to be a partner in that process and the European Union working for peace, stability and democracy.

DIMBLEBY Okay, that's a general perspective, let me [CLAPPING] let me ask you some particular questions on this. We know that Kuchma and Yanukovych we're told have been meeting together, what way through is there if both are claiming victory, one allegedly with 49%, one allegedly with 46% and the outsiders saying this was a rigged vote, what way out is there?

MACSHANE President Kuchma is the retiring president, you mean Mr Yushchenko.

DIMBLEBY I'm sorry.

MACSHANE There are ways out. One would be to rerun the election, the other would be to do what everybody from Chancellor Schroeder to the British government, President Bush have said - the OSCE monitoring reports and Bruce George - a very distinguished MP - was there heading the British delegation, their reports have to be properly examined. The lawyers, the constitutional supreme court of Ukraine has said that this result cannot be declared for the time being. So there's politics, there are people on the streets, I haven't got a solution sitting here in the UK but Europe is present, British is present, I think that the Ukrainians will find their way out of this because what we've seen this week is that witness to European democracy which is so powerful, so whatever immediately happens I think talk of civil war frankly is foolish and irresponsible …

DIMBLEBY Is talk - is talk of what has been described as a peaceful revolution - I mean it's clear that Yushchenko is getting on to the streets very large numbers of people, of the kind that actually happened - you touched on Solidarity in Poland - a peaceful revolution which means that there isn't necessarily an election of the kind that's just been held but that the power of people and their supporters bring about that change without violence on the streets?

MACSHANE I think the pressure and the voice of the Ukrainian people is there. I also have to be honest and say an awful lot of people in the Eastern part of the country wanted perhaps a more stable, secure, unsettled life, voted for, let's say, the more conservative of the two candidates and their views have to be respected. But as I said I've met the politicians there and I didn't sense anybody who didn't realise Ukraine's path was a European one, at what speed, on what terms they get there will have to be decided. But what's important is again in Europe we're extending democracy, we're standing up Page 5 of 21 for human rights and we're doing it as a united European Union and that's much better than anything that happened in the last century.

DIMBLEBY We'll go on to our next question. [CLAPPING] Page 6 of 21

HINKLEY Janet Hinkley. I would like to ask the panel whether they think we should be playing cricket in Zimbabwe.

DIMBLEBY Charles Moore.

MOORE No I don't think we should. I know it's always difficult that you want to get on with the sport and not get muddled up in politics but sometimes the sport is automatically muddled up in politics because it's used for propaganda reasons by a particular regime. And there's no question that that's what's happening here. I know Zimbabwe from visits in the 1990s and it's really quite shocking what has happened. It was really the most hopeful of all the black African countries and it has hugely attractive landscape of fundamentally prosperous country, a very likeable and relaxed people who have been completely destroyed in recent years. And I know black and white friends in that country who are absolutely at their wits end and some of them have been imprisoned and beaten up and so on. And the idea that we just go there and play as if really, you know, nothing much is happening is absolutely quite wrong.

DIMBLEBY Would you have had the English Cricket Board itself say we won't go and take the risk of the fine from the International Cricket Council?

MOORE Yes, I mean I think that - yes I think so. You can't just sort of isolate yourself from what the effects of your actions are and I think sports people sometimes do do that because they - after all why should they know about politics. That's very understandable. But this is a very, very bad situation. This is a country which is in deep, deep trouble and where even cricket itself is not fairly played.

DIMBLEBY Thank you. Liz Lynne. [CLAPPING]

LYNNE No I don't think under any circumstances they should be there but I believe the government should have said something sooner or at least said something. [CLAPPING] It's almost like …

DIMBLEBY What would you have had the government say?

LYNNE It's almost like …

DIMBLEBY What would you have had the government say?

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LYNNE That it's unsafe to go, that they shouldn't be going. I supported the not going to South Africa many, many years ago now and I find it very hypocritical of people who didn't support that who are now saying fine people shouldn't go to Zimbabwe, I'm glad they're saying that but for any regime, any regime who are committing atrocities on their own people we should actually stand up and be counted. And I believe the government has been wrong over this. It's all very fine them blaming the ECB [CLAPPING], my understanding is if the government had said this then of course the ECB wouldn't be fined. They're in a very difficult position. The cricketers are in a very difficult position as well. They're in an intolerable position. I'm sure the majority of those cricketers do not want to be in Zimbabwe , they do not want to play cricket there but what else can they do when their bosses and the government more or less by not ruling out being able to go - I see Denis MacShane shaking his head there but it's entirely up to the government to do something about this along with the ECB.

DIMBLEBY He has been shaking his head. [CLAPPING] Been shaking your head now it's your chance to open your mouth minister.

MACSHANE The question was do I think - does the panel think that the cricketers should be in Zimbabwe. The answer is no.

DIMBLEBY Do you want to elaborate on that answer?

MACSHANE This is …

DIMBLEBY Because otherwise I'll ask you a question.

MACSHANE I give a one word answer and Mr Dimbleby says keep talking, keep talking, keep talking. I wish I was allowed a two sentence answer sometimes to Mr Humphrys or Mr Paxman. I don't think they should have gone, I don't think the ECB should have gone anywhere near it, I think it is outrageous that the International Cricket Council seems to have held this financial stranglehold over cricket. Do I think - to answer Liz Lynne because she turned into an opportunistic political point - do I think - do I think - do I think - do I think - do I think that a British government should say we're now running sport, that the state sponsors sport. My answer is no, no and no again. I remember 25 - 24 years ago when one of the supreme authoritarian nannies of all time said that British athletes couldn't run in the Moscow Olympics, thank goodness - I won't mention her name - thank goodness Seb Coe went and won a glorious gold, and I hope he brings the chances to win a lot of gold medals to Britain in the London Olympics in 2012 …

LYNNE So you supported … Page 8 of 21

MACSHANE I do not think - oh for heaven's sake Liz - I fear I may with my friend have been pretty active against apartheid connections with British cricket when the British cricketing authorities were doing everything to stop Basil D'Oliveira playing for his country …

DIMBLEBY Let's stick with this and not go back into that history. Let me ask you a question. If it is outrageous - I think was your term - that this tour goes ahead, at the point at which it looked as if it was going to be cancelled why did you then have a conversation with the Zimbabwean High Commission and say please, please, please lift the ban on the journalists implicitly because then the tour, that you think is outrageous, will go ahead?

MACSHANE No certainly not. I called in the Zimbabwean chief diplomat here in London to say that the ban on journalists was outrageous, I told him what I thought about the cricket tour, I don't want to go into a lot of details because these diplomatic exchanges are that diplomatic, I asked him to convey to the government what we thought. Actually I in a paradoxical way …

DIMBLEBY You asked him to the lift the ban didn't you.

MACSHANE I said the ban was outrageous. I mean my discussion with …

DIMBLEBY Why did you bother, why didn't you just say it's great, they can't go ahead, this outrageous tour won't happen. [CLAPPING]

MACSHANE David you and I are both longstanding or were longstanding …

DIMBLEBY You're on Any Questions at the moment, not Question Time.

MACSHANE … of the National Union of Journalists, this is the first time I've ever heard you say that a British government minister should say journalists should not be allowed into a country they want to go to. Really we are actually standing all things on our heads. The cricket tour was wrong, the detestation around the world for the Mugabe has now been revealed once again - that's one little side effect. But no, I never want to be part of a British government that would tell any British sportsman - dictate to them what they can do, I don't think that's a British way and I'm very surprised anybody's seriously suggesting that we should now decide where our sports team go and play.

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DIMBLEBY Tim Collins, of course it was the Shadow Secretary of State - the Shadow Foreign Secretary who said that the government should have told ala Thatcher in the case of the Russian Olympics, you shall not go - doesn't sound very libertarian Conservative approach.

COLLINS Well what I think is extraordinary about this is the extent to which Denis MacShane, who's the Foreign Office minister, is washing his hands of all this, as though it's nothing whatsoever to do with him. Robert Mugabe's regime is murdering and torturing and starving its opponents to death, it's responsible for the death of certainly hundreds of thousands, very possibly millions of people, those who are going out to play cricket are going out to play cricket to represent their country and their country has a right to expect through its democratically elected government that it has an opinion on whether its country should be represented in a place like that. We should not be represented in a place like that, the government should issue clear instructions that would actually absolve the ECB of any question of a fine under the ICC rules. There are two other things. First of all, recently Jack Straw, our Foreign Secretary, shook the hand of Robert Mugabe and said afterwards - Oh that's because I didn't recognise him. I actually think we ought to have a Foreign Secretary who can recognise some of the worst psychopaths in the world and doesn't actually shake them by the hand [CLAPPING]. And secondly - and secondly, since we are now told that the justification for the war in Iraq was to get rid of the brutal dictatorship of Saddam Hussein can we now have official British government policy that we are in favour of regime change in Zimbabwe and get rid of Robert Mugabe? [CLAPPING]

DIMBLEBY On the first issue Minister, the alleged failure of the Foreign Secretary to recognise the - Mr Mugabe in the flesh.

MACSHANE That's a handshake that Jack, as it were, will take to his grave with him. He knows it himself, it was a mistake and gosh …

DIMBLEBY Haven't heard him say - has he said that to you?

MACSHANE Of course he has, don't be ridiculous, I mean it was a grotesque mistake, it was an error - it wasn't deliberate, I mean it was …

DIMBLEBY I haven't heard him say that in public.

MACSHANE Oh well perhaps that's what I'm here for. But at least - at least - at least we didn't give Robert Mugabe a knighthood as the Conservatives did in 1994 and roll out the red carpet for him. We haven't got Mugabe right - we all would like to know what is the mechanism to get rid of this brutal dictator, I think it has to come from his neighbours in Africa and perhaps the journalists there will actually understand now what Page 10 of 21

Mugabe's up to. At least we're telling the truth about Mugabe, unlike Tim's party who gave an honorary knighthood a decade ago.

DIMBLEBY Very briefly can you - can you say to explain to those who are unclear about this why - we don't need to go into Iraq although it was raised by Tim Collins - why at the very least you don't suspend diplomatic relations with Zimbabwe, given that he's this murderous tyrannical regime as you yourselves describe it?

MACSHANE Because our friends - because our friends in Zimbabwe, the movement for democratic change, are delighted that they have a British High Commission whose doors are open to them. Because there are many people in Zimbabwe fighting black and white, principally Zimbabwean African citizens want British to be there, want those connections. And I can think of nothing more foolish or irresponsible than to suggest that we break diplomatic relations so that our voice, Britain's voice, our High Commission is not there to help the democrats of Zimbabwe get rid of this dictator.

DIMBLEBY Thank you. Any Answers may be for you on that or any of the other issues we're discussing. The number if so is 08700 100 444. The e-mail address any.answers@.co.uk. That of course is after the Saturday edition of Any Questions. We'll go to our next please. Page 11 of 21

RUTTER Ann Rutter. Our 's proclamations about advice to families just more of the nanny state?

DIMBLEBY She said, amongst other things, I don't wish to unfairly summarise what she said but she did say as part of her speech that good nannies were not just about telling you what you must do but: "ensuring you can make real and informed choices for yourself". Liz Lynne.

LYNNE Well I heard this when I was coming up tonight and I thought not again but at least she's being honest about it, at least she says - unlike some of the other government ministers - that she does believe in a nanny state and she believes that the government should dictate to parents how they bring up their children. She goes on to say something about oh we're only giving advice, if that's the case fine. If she's giving all the necessary examples of what people need to eat and healthy - healthy eating then fine. But as long as she's not then saying you mustn't eat chocolate, you mustn't eat chips, you mustn't eat crisps, leave it up to the parents to decide what is best for their own children, I really do think we must get away from all the time saying the government knows best and families don't know best. And I think it's very difficult when the Labour Party do come out with things like this on the way we should run our lives, the way people should allow their children to run their lives. It's very difficult as well that in schools we have less and less cookery classes, we have less and less nutrition classes, we have less and less relationship education. And I think it's very important that we get it right in the schools and in the homes but for the government not quite to dictate quite so much about what we should actually do with our lives. [CLAPPING]

DIMBLEBY Tim Collins.

COLLINS Well I found Margaret Hodge's comments breathtaking frankly, I mean they amounted almost to the nationalisation of children. And one thing she said which was actually quite welcome was that she said that she recognised that marriage is now the preferred condition in which children should be brought up, well whoopi but what a shame she said that after this government has removed every recognition and support for marriage in the tax system, the education system and the legal system. [CLAPPING] She said the question is not whether the state should intervene in family life but how. And she said that the state has the responsibility of picking up the pieces when family life goes wrong, so who's to look after children when that happens? What she seems to have forgotten is that the most vulnerable, the most abused, the most neglected and the most educationally backward children in our country are those who are in care homes, they're the ones who are looked after by the state and who looks after them when things fall apart? And frankly Margaret Hodge, given her past, should have known a bit about that. Finally, as far as this particular government is concerned bear in mind that this is a government which is presiding - we saw this morning the figures were published over the worst extent of drug abuse amongst young people anywhere in Europe, yet has declassified cannabis. Which is presiding Page 12 of 21 over the highest explosion in sexually transmitted diseases amongst young people anywhere in Europe and which is presiding over a climate in which shoplifting is a major crime committed by young people and yet they've decided it should be treated like a parking fine and be something that is just administered without a criminal record. I actually think that Margaret Hodge should concentrate not on telling parents to steer clear of crisp packets but on getting the government's job on law and order right and that actually would protect young people an awful lot better. [CLAPPING]

DIMBLEBY But when she points out that the government's Sure Start programme, for instance, has included a 37% increase in breast feeding [indistinct words], a 25% cut in smoking by pregnant women in Whitehoven, a [indistinct word] decrease in the number of children under three admitted to A&E in Hastings - do you kind of think well Sure Start's a waste of time or a good thing?

COLLINS No I think Sure Start has a lot to commend it. What I don't think is acceptable is for a government minister to say that we know better than parents how to raise children and that somehow we should dictate to parents how to do it when the things that the government should be concentrating on - cracking down on shoplifting, protecting young people from sexually transmitted diseases and cracking down on drug abuse - they so magnificently fail at. Let parents concentrate on what parents should do and maybe government should concentrate on what government should do.

DIMBLEBY How do governments stop children contracting sexually transmitted diseases better than parents?

COLLINS Well I think we have to look at what has been the products - and this in not in fairness something that has just happened under this government - but what has been the product of 30 years of ever more graphic sexual education directed at ever younger children, focussing ever more clearly, purely on the mechanics, without any discussion about love or self respect or other options that are available to them. And the more of it that we get the more we get in terms of sexually transmitted disease and unwanted pregnancy and underage sex. And at some point we've actually got to ask are we actually getting a sensible system in exchange for what we're all paying for?

DIMBLEBY Denis MacShane.

MACSHANE I'm sorry this has been made into a party political thing, I really don't think worrying about children - and all of us who are MPs, Liz when she was an MP before she went off to Strasbourg would have had the most horrendous cases involving children. They need care, they need help, yes they need advice. And I suppose the first nanny state, if that phrase is so objectionable, was when somebody stopped children - little children going up chimneys to work as chimney sweeps. I think we've legislated for children. I regret the fact that the rapid break up of family life, of values, of the last 25 or 30 years has left so many children without the care and attention they should Page 13 of 21 have from all of their parents. That obsession with greed, rubbish television programmes about sex, the fact you can't open a tabloid paper without ridiculous stories about ridiculous minor popstars and unknown TV soap opera people and their stupid antics. And the obsession with consumption and greed. And frankly Tim that awful 1980s period when every British value was thrown out of the window to be replaced by the idea if you put a price on something that's all that mattered - price on sex, price on love. And so I actually think yes community, society - if at times that means government, local government and at times national government wants to say we have a duty for our children I'm proud of the fact that in Britain we think that's important and worth doing.

DIMBLEBY [CLAPPING] Charles Moore.

MOORE Well first of all I think we need to put this in a slightly wider context because what you have this week is David Blunkett sort of going ahhhh - like a horrible bogey outside, terrifying you out of your wits with all the things that are going to happen to you, so after that you have to have Margaret Hodge saying there, there dear, calm down, have a hot water bottle and a cup of cocoa.

MACSHANE Did you have a nanny Charles? You seem to know how nannies behave, did you have one?

DIMBLEBY You don't have to answer the question Charles if you don't want to - the question was from the Minister who seems very interested in your personal life - did you have a nanny?

MOORE I had that old fashioned thing called a mother Denis. But I think that the important thing to look about this is if you think as yourself as a parent, which I am, what do you actually think that a government could usefully do for your children? That's really the question isn't it. And I know perfectly well that they can't do anything for the life of my children to speak of within the home, how would they know - how would they know what's going on, how would they know what my children need, how would they know what my children - they couldn't and therefore they should shut up about it. What they can do is provide important public services and public safety on behalf of children. So I do care tremendously what the government does about children - can my children walk safely down the street for example - that's tremendously important. But there has to be a respect - there has to be an idea that you have your front door and your home and your family and this is not intruded upon. And what Margaret Hodge, she keeps on talking about how wonderful nannies are, though I don't know as much as Denis about nannies, I'm sure they are but the point is this nannies are there for children and she is the nanny talking to grown ups - she's telling parents what to do, she is treating parents like children.

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DIMBLEBY What specifically, in contrast to what you think of as her general approach, what specifically has she done or is she doing that you find so offensive, that is intruding inside the front door into for instance your private life?

MOORE Well I think, for example, there's a huge range of advice that is given which seems to me rather impertinent. When you look at government ministers and how they live their own lives they are no worse perhaps than anyone else but they're certainly no better. And I don't see why…

DIMBLEBY Which advice?

MOORE Well she says, for example, that it's wonderful they should put out advice about good parenting - why should they put out advice about good parenting, what's it got to do with them, what do they know about it? Good parenting's a very important subject but this is something that comes from your own parents, from your friends, from other parents, from teachers, from clergy - why should it come from your elected representatives, what do they know about it? I want them to stop preaching and to think about things that in practical real ways they could help children. How - how many children are there in a class, for example, in a school? How good are the educational standards, how safe are children in the street, how good is the public transport? Those are issues in which government can properly have an effect.

DIMBLEBY Thank you. And [CLAPPING] a reminder of the Any Answers number again 08700 100 444. To our next question please. Page 15 of 21

GIBSON Isabelle Gibson. After the failure of the referendum for a regional assembly in the north what chance is there of motivating people about European issues?

DIMBLEBY A member of the audience, for those who couldn't quite hear at home, has given an unequivocal answer which was "none". So I'll go first of all to the minister responsible for getting a yes if he can in the referendum on the European constitution. Can you get a yes given the way in which people are either apathetic or hostile?

MACSHANE If I didn't believe that I'd be very worried for our nation's future because the first time that Britain, when we come to the referendum, we have signed it, it'll be ratified through parliamentary debate, there'll be a General Election and I expect that the anti- European candidates will not do very well, that we then turn our backs on a solemn treaty and say no to Europe will be the first time ever in British history that the British people have voted in full knowledge of what the arguments were to isolate ourselves from our main market, our partners, the people who are doing with us so well to try and stabilise things in the Ukraine. Lose our influence obviously in the Commonwealth and in North America. The treaty itself - I know it's impossible to discuss because we haven't got time Jonathan, but some of the stories in the papers - it would mean the end of the Queen, the end of foreign policy, end of tax control - all completely utter myths and propaganda. I even heard that under the treaty you'd have to take Nelson's statue off the top of Nelson's Column and replace it by Napoleon. Well you know this is what Charles Moore and his friends - the anti-Europeans - love to keep telling us. It's absolute nonsense. The British people will have the facts on this in due time, we'll break through the propaganda and I don't think - and in every General Election where there's been an anti-European party and Labour was jolly anti-European 20 years ago and Britain voted for Mrs Thatcher who took us into the single market, who was a profound pro-European, then things changed - Michael Howard, John Redwood came along and the Tories adopted all of Labour's old mistakes and they don't seem to have shed them. I am as confident as I've ever been that this country will never vote to isolate itself from its main trading opportunities, from its partners, and Britain will say yes because Britain is a leading country in Europe and we're going to keep it that way.

DIMBLEBY Just [CLAPPING] just before I bring in the others, given that you believe that the British people will vote from your perspective sensibly, why were you so vehement before the decision was made to have a referendum in describing those who wanted a referendum as - I think I quote you accurately "gravediggers for democracy"?

MACSHANE That was some time ago Jonathan. And the plain pleasure of being a sensible politician is that the facts change, I change my mind, what do you do? And the clamour for a referendum was so strong and in a funny way I was wrong - I admit it, I was wrong. I am now delighted that we have got a clear decision of the British people, we can take on the propagandists, the isolationists, those who want to cut Britain off, those who want to be in breach of solemn treaty obligations, those who want to turn their backs on Europe, I am delighted, I'm happy to come back here to Page 16 of 21 anywhere in the country to argue the case. There's a very good short pamphlet, approved by the Plain English Commission, any listener of Any Questions who'd like a copy write to me at the Foreign Office. The facts of Europe will now be in front of the people not the propaganda and the spin.

DIMBLEBY A personal letter to Denis MacShane for those who want their entertaining weekend reading. Tim Collins.

COLLINS Well of course Denis didn't change his mind because the facts changed, he's changed his mind because the Prime Minister changed his mind. [CLAPPING] And I just have a sneaking suspicion that if we'd been having this discussing a month ago Denis would in his inimitable and enormously entertaining style have been expressing equal absolute confidence that the people of the North East were going to vote for that. And the question that was actually rather interesting was did the failure of the referendum in the North East cause it because I don't think the referendum in the North East was a failure at all - I think it was a triumphant success, it was a victory for people over the political establishment, it was a decision by the people against the entirety pretty much of the North East political establishment, certainly the entirety of the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats and the trade unions and all the rest of it, they did not want yet more government, more bureaucracy, more tax, that's exactly the heart of the proposition which is before them in the European constitution. Denis talks about myths, well there have been some quite entertaining myths that he and his colleagues have trotted out around the time. In fact actually the Prime Minister is on record several times as saying there was never going to be a European constitution. So that proved to be a myth that came true. We were told we wouldn't have a European army - this week we've actually started assigning forces to a European army. We were told by Denis's predecessor that the declaration of fundamental rights would have the same legal force as the Beano and actually the declaration of fundamental rights is in the European constitution, if we adopt the European constitution it will have absolute binding legal power over anything and everything that happens in the United Kingdom. I'm afraid the myth …

MOORE I wish the Beano was in the constitution.

COLLINS Oh yeah exactly, that would make the constitution rather more readable and rather more fun. Simple challenge to Denis: if he's so confident in his case let's have the referendum right now. But they won't call it because they know they'd lose it, whether they hold it this year, next year or the year after because the British people want to trade with their neighbours but they don't want to be governed by anybody other than themselves, we want to be part of a country called Britain not a country called Europe, thank you very much. [CLAPPING]

DIMBLEBY Liz Lynne.

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LYNNE It's going to be very difficult with people like Tim Collins around and some of the newspapers. I just hope that when we get the referendum, and I hope it's sooner rather than later, my party - the Liberal Democrats - have been calling for a referendum for a long time now on the constitutional treaty. It is very important the British people have the chance to decide for themselves. But once we have that debate hopefully the pro-arguments will be put far better than they're being put at the moment and that's the problem. We are not getting the message across. I blame all of us to a certain degree but I also blame the fact that a lot of the newspapers when there's something that comes out of the European Union that is positive they say it's up to the government, if there's something that comes out that's negative they blame the European Union of course. I know on a lot of the anti-discrimination measures that we brought forward from the European Union - on age for instance - we have a fantastic employment directive to outlaw discrimination on the grounds of age and disability and various other issues and what do the government do - they claimed as their own, they forgot to say that it came from the European Union. And I think once we've told people what the European Union actually do then I think we might be able to win the argument. On cross-border crime, on the environment, on completing the single market and the constitution - and I'm sure Denis would agree with me on this - is to define and limit the powers of the European Union once and for all, define and limit and on that I think it's important to get that message across.

DIMBLEBY Thank you. Charles Moore, I take it you don't believe that Napoleon is going to replace Nelson, were there to be a yes vote in the referendum but I also take it from what you've written that you're pretty fearful that it might do in one way or another?

MOORE I think - I think there's no need for the European Union because Ken Livingstone will probably do that anyway. But the - can I just - when I'm trying to work out what to think about all this I turn naturally to the Daily Telegraph and there's a magnificent article this week by Denis MacShane and here is his main reason - well perhaps not - an important reason advance for signing up to the European constitution. "British lawyers," he says, "are making a fortune thanks to European and international law because interpreting treaties and taking cases of supranational tribunals provide new work in which the British legal profession excels." Well I love lawyers, they're wonderful people, many of my best friends are lawyers, but I really don't think that we should rest the case for our membership of the European constitution on more money for lawyers, which is one of the sacred - sacred principles of Mr Blair the barrister. I - I don't want the rule of lawyers, I want the rule of law and you can't have the rule of law in a society where there is no proper answerability and in the European Union there is no proper answerability, it is far too remote. And it is bound to be so, however you constitute it, because it is too enormous, too varied with too many languages, it cannot be done.

DIMBLEBY Is this an argument merely against the constitution or is it an argument for being within the EU even without a constitution?

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MOORE It's an argument against the constitution and against the over-centralisation of the European Union. Denis said that he was going to get - he had a wonderful thing called the facts which the Plain English Commission has approved, I'd like to ask Denis whether he will send free to every voter in the referendum a copy of the constitutional treaty because if he would I don't think the No campaign needs to spend any money on campaigning whatever and the Plain English Commission certainly wouldn't let it pass. You read this thing and you see that this is a complete document for the centralised government, fundamentally undemocratic government of all of us by an answerable - unanswerable body based in Brussels. We read it we will vote no.

DIMBLEBY Minister.

MACSHANE It's curious then that the biggest opponents of this new constitutional treaty were commissioners themselves because it puts into the driving seat national governments, it writes in for the first time a role for the House of Commons together with other national parliaments to block legislation. It says no legislation - no legislation - Charles ..

MOORE No, no…

MACSHANE … no legislation can go through without having parliamentary approval. I'm sorry you think that Brussels is so remote, I think the Ukrainians would be much rather closer to Europe and Brussels and be rather surprised at the tenor of your remarks Charles. It is a treaty, it is international law yes, yes. Let me put my cards on the table. I am profoundly in favour of law. Churchill said that jaw, jaw was better than war, war - there's something even better than that - law, law. The World Trade Organisation …

MOORE That's the first paragraph of his article by the way.

MACSHANE The World Trade Organisation - well I notice you didn't read out anything that made a point. But law, law - this is an international treaty organisation like the World Trade Organisation, law of the sea, Kyoto - Britain is good and that's what we're doing for the 21st Century - constructing a legal framework to allow countries to move and grow together. The things we don't like [AUDIENCE NOISE] the things we don't like aren't possible to be imposed upon us because every country - Malta, Estonia, Cyprus, Britain - has kept vetoes of all the important things. You can't do foreign policy unless it's agreed unanimously. And yes a gentleman from the back shouted - Why in Europe, why not the world? - let's start here, make a success of the European Union [AUDIENCE NOISE] make a success of Eastern Europe, let Poland and Ireland and Finland and Greece and Portugal grow as they're growing and have grown and then that will be an example that the rest of the world I think will want to follow. Page 19 of 21

I'm proud of the European Union - we destroy it, we destroy Britain's chances for a peaceful happy 21st Century.

DIMBLEBY Quick response Tim Collins.

COLLINS Let me just put a very direct question to Denis since he raised this and I'd be grateful if he can, if he can give us a yes or no answer to this. Can the United Kingdom House of Commons under the constitution veto any legislation agreed to in the Council of Ministers? Yes or no.

MACSHANE If the United Kingdom …

DIMBLEBY Let him answer the question.

MACSHANE Alright, yes alright if he wants a simple answer, the answer is yes but take the consequences which is to be in breach of an international treaty and to have to withdraw from the EU.

COLLINS So that's no then.

DIMBLEBY Liz Lynne - Liz Lynne.

LYNNE Can I just point out to all of you that under the constitutional treaty the parliamentarians - in other words MEPs will get more power and the ministers will get more power. You ask whether you can veto it - if you have co-decisions in the European Parliament and on my committee - the Employment and Social Affairs Committee we do to a great deal - we can veto it, we can change that - that is parliamentarian, elected by this country working together with other parliamentarians and we actually veto legislation under co-decision and the constitutional treaty will give elected representatives more power.

DIMBLEBY I'm going to squeeze in one more question. Page 20 of 21

MULLY Graham Mully. The world's oldest man died this week at the age of 114. He attributed his longevity to eating honey, walking every day and doing a bit of gardening. How are the members of the panel going to ensure that they too have a long life?

DIMBLEBY Short answer on behalf of the long life if you'd be kind enough. Tim Collins.

COLLINS Oh my word. I'm tempted to say by not listening to too many political speeches. I think probably the best way of ensuring a long life is to concentrate on family because that's the thing that matters most whether you have a short life or a long life that's what you value the most at the end of your life I've found from family members in that situation. And I think also it's the best way of enjoying your life while you've got it.

DIMBLEBY Charles Moore. [CLAPPING]

MOORE What makes me happiest really, most relaxed and therefore inclined to have a long life is foxhunting. So [LAUGHTER] thanks to this bloody government I'm going to have a very short life. [CLAPPING]

DIMBLEBY Liz Lynne, Liz Lynne.

LYNNE Take Margaret Hodge's advice of course because she's telling me how I can be healthy. But seriously try to get a better work/life balance.

DIMBLEBY Thank you. And Denis MacShane.

MACSHANE Early to bed, early to rise, red British novels - at the moment British novelists are the best in the world, I never go to sleep without one.

DIMBLEBY Thank you. Next week - next week in Manchester for the Liberal Democrats Vince Cable, for the government Ruth Kelly, Shailesh Vara the prospective parliamentary candidate for the Conservative Party and for himself, as an independent MEP Mr Robert Kilroy Silk. Join us then, don't forget Any Answers. For now from St John's School for the Deaf in Boston Spa goodbye. [CLAPPING]

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