Classic Horror Film Board Unofficial Archives

"Who Played The Monster, Film by Film"

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Volume 1

10/4/05 - 10/24/05 Screen pages 1 - 26 Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------2 taraco (10/4/05 1:39 am)

Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------We all know that Boris Karloff, Lon Chaney Jr., Bela Lugosi and then Glenn Strange played the monster in the classic Universal series.

But there is still confusion over the stunt men, stand-ins and others -- such as Eddie Parker, Gil Perkins and maybe others -- who wore the makeup (or mask), as well. With so much bad information, new information, rumors and Vasarian legends swirling, I thought maybe the CHFB criminal brain trust could work up the definitive list.

So let's try to go film by film -- no jumping ahead til we're satisfied each film has been dealt with.

The beginning will be easy, but films such as FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN may be interesting indeed. There's been a lot of discussion on these boards, but it's scattered about.

So maybe we can end up with a definitive listing, film by film, and even scene by scene. And learn something from the true experts here.

So to begin... Edited by: taraco at: 10/4/05 1:55 am

taraco (10/4/05 1:43 am)

Who played the Monster (FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------OK, in the original FRANKENSTEIN, we know:

-- Bela Lugosi did a short screen test, supposedly 'Golem-like', and sadly that footage is lost.

-- Boris Karloff played the monster, even showing up on the laboratory table in his street shoes before the creation scene.

Did anyone else play the monster in FRANKENSTEIN, even briefly? Was it always Karloff carrying Colin Clive (and throwing the dummy off the windmill)?

I would imagine it was always Boris. But is that right?

(Once we're all satisfied, we'll move on to BRIDE).

Anyhow, we'll start slowly, but... david

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------3

TomWeaver999 (10/4/05 5:32 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------<< I would imagine it was always Boris. But is that right? <<

I believe so, yes.

Joe Karlosi (10/4/05 6:16 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------Onto BRIDE now - was this always Karloff? I'd believe so, and if true it's interesting because I'd never given it a thought to this very moment that there were no stuntmen for the first two films... ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

TomWeaver999 (10/4/05 8:25 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------Stuntman George DeNormand -- there's an article on him in the new FILMFAX -- doubled for Karloff in BRIDE, and talks about it in that article. He's the only double I know of.

ForbiddenZone (10/4/05 9:03 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------That FilmFax article sounds very interesting. What number is the latest issue?

Taraco (10/4/05 9:23 am)

Who played the Monster (BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------Wait, wait. Slow down.

OK, as Joe says, onto BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN.

If George DeNormand doubled for Boris, in which scene?

And does this mean he was the second person ever to have the Jack Pierce makeup, or partial makeup? Edited by: taraco at: 10/4/05 9:24 am Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------4

taraco (10/4/05 9:28 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------Also, aren't there photos of James Whale standing by a full-sized torso and head of the Monster from the BRIDE set?

Anyhow, I assume this is from BRIDE: Was that used in the water scene, or...?

Edited by: taraco at: 10/4/05 9:37 am

Wolfman Joe (10/4/05 9:37 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------I thought that dummy was used for camera set-ups, lighting, etc.

blackbiped (10/4/05 11:15 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) .. . ------It always looked to me like a stuntman who jumps into the stream to rescue the shepherdess. Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

taraco (10/4/05 12:16 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------>>It always looked to me like a stuntman who jumps into the stream to rescue the shepherdess.

And that would be George DeNormand, then? Interesting! Someone else who played the monster in BRIDE!

Can anyone confirm that it was DeNormand? DeNormand is in FILMFAX #107, but I'm at work and the library here at USA TODAY -- believe it or not -- DOESN'T have FILMFAX!! david— Edited by: taraco at: 10/4/05 12:27 pm taraco (10/4/05 12:30 pm) Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------5

Re: Who played the Monster (BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------Interesting: The IMdB lists George DeNormand as a stunt double for Henry Hull in WEREWOLF OF LONDON, and as a double (not a stunt double, if there's a disticntion), for Bela Lugosi in THE RAVEN!

It does not list BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN...but that does not mean he wasn't in it. taraco (10/4/05 10:44 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------OK, here's what it says about George DeNormand in the new FILMFAX (No. 107). The article, mostly about his stunt work in westerns, is by Jim Harmon:

'On The Bride of Frankenstein (1935), George was doubling Boris Karloff as the Monster. Near the end of the day's shooting, Karloff came up to DeNormand, the two of them in complete monster makeup with the huge, square headpieces.

'Karloff said, 'This is your first day in make-up, George. I think you had better come with me.'

'The two men went to Karloff's dressing room and the star offered George a very stiff whiskey. 'Bottoms up, George.' The two then went to make-up. The first thing they did to each of the men was to remove the headpiece glued to their own scalps. It was like ripping off the top of the man's own head -- blinding pain, and an inadvertent yelp. George then understood why they needed that shot of whiskey.

'For some time, Frankenstein aficionado Donald F. Glut was not sure where DeNormand doubled Karloff. George was on the production records for doubling the old man who drowned beneath the windmill at the beginning of the film. There was no double for the climax of the film. It was either Karloff or a dummy.

'But Glut believes that it was a double, possibly George, who is hoisted up on a pole when the Monster is captured midway through the film. The director would not ask a star like Karloff to go through that.'

-- Jim Harmon, FILMFAX #107.

Harmon's piece is based on interviews with DeNormand before the veteran stuntman died in 1976.

There's no doubt it is Karloff in the closeup during the 'crucifixion' scene on the pole:

But Glut apparently believes it could have been DeNormand during the hoisting or when the pole falls into the wagon. If so, DeNormand would be the second man to play Jack Pierce's monster.

So what think? Are we convinced enough to start a list?

-- Frankenstein (1931): Boris Karloff Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------6

-- Bride of Frankenstein (1935): Boris Karloff, George DeNormand

Or do we need more proof? david 'I'll bind him!' Edited by: taraco at: 10/4/05 10:56 pm

nightmarekey (10/5/05 12:27 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------I believe a double was also used in the brief long shot of The Monster carrying the kidnapped Elizabeth to the cave... It must be remembered that the scenes in the the burned windmill were, by all accounts, actually Karloff's first on-camera work in the picture, and was also when he dislocated a hip... therefore, any subsequent scenes involving strenuous activity must have been doubled. Clearly Karloff is in medium & closeups, but judicious editing (and skill on the part of this DeNormand) make it difficult to pinpoint; camouflaged as well by James Whale's pictorial style, which could employ as many as six camera perspectives in a given scene.

Ted Newsom (10/5/05 3:03 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------Oh, there goes nightmarekey again, writing lucidly. Such a disappointment. Hell, ANYbody can write like that.

OK, so maybe deNorman doubled the waterfall thing (but not the windmill, where Karloff was injured); maybe -- MAYbe-- the long shot of the crucifixion scene... maybe a shot of carrying Hobson off... and, I should guess, the extreme long shots of the exploding lab at the end. Sounds likely enough.

On to Son of Frankenstein? Ed Wolff, isn't that the guy's name, who gets kicked into the sulphur pit?

I can't think of any other shot where you'd need a double. I would've ASKED for one if I was Karloff being hoisted up on the slab, but that appears to be the old boy himself.

And this quote from Jim Harmon's article: Quote: ------The director would not ask a star like Karloff to go through that. ------

I don't buy at all. Whale WOULD ask such a thing, just to put that truck driver in his place.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/5/05 3:06 am

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------7

TomWeaver999 (10/5/05 9:00 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------<< On to Son of Frankenstein? Ed Wolff, isn't that the guy's name, who gets kicked into the sulphur pit? <<

In one of the old Don Glut books, he writes that it's BUD WOLFE (a stuntman you'll find in a lot of Republic serials) doing the fall into the sulfur pit. But ..... it's in a Glut book, so maybe the curvature of the spine of the Monster in that shot, or something like that, enabled him to reach that conclusion. More recently Glut has started writing it's ED WOLFF in that scene -- Ed Wolff was a giant (he's the Colossus of New York) who by all accounts couldn't fall into a depression without breaking every bone in his body, so THAT'S wrong.

Sooooo ... yes, it had to be a stuntman in that scene, but whether it was Wolfe (iffy source) or Wolff (no way) or somebody else, we dunno.

taraco (10/5/05 9:38 am)

Who played the Monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------OK, if we agree then the list will be:

-- FRANKENSTEIN (1931) Boris Karloff -- BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931) Boris Karloff, George DeNormand

On to SON OF FRANKENSTEIN:

As noted above, the scene where a stuntman was known to be used is the falling into the sulphur pit.

Here's two images from the Philip Riley MagicImage SON OF FRANKENSTEIN book, which identifies the monstrous stand-in as Bud Wolfe: The IMdB lists Bud Wolfe as an 'uncredited' stunt man in SON OF FRANKENSTEIN. He was heavily used in serials.

An Ed Wolff is also listed separately. SON OF FRANKENSRTEIN is not listed but the short list of films includes Wolff playing Phllippe in RETURN OF THE FLY and the creature in COLOSSUS OF NEW YORK (probably briefly), a mutant in INVADERS FROM MARS and, in a 1932 film called HYPNOTIZED, 'Midget.' That last confuses things.

But it could be that Bud Wolfe and Ed Wolff are the same person.

Does anyone know more?

david Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------8

Edited by: taraco at: 10/5/05 9:45 am

TomWeaver999 (10/5/05 11:06 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------<< But it could be that Bud Wolfe and Ed Wolff are the same person. <<

No. Bud Wolfe (seen in countless serials, and as the bus driver in TARANTULA) was an average-size, mean-looking guy. (Well, I'm sure he smiled when he got home.) Ed Wolff was about seven feet tall -- he'd stand out in any movie like Andre the Giant or Richard Kiel. (And guys that size DON'T do high falls.) Supposedly Wolff (the seven-foot-tall one) was also the sour-looking robot in THE PHANTOM CREEPS.

taraco (10/5/05 11:56 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------So do we think it is Bud or Ed? Glut now says Ed was in SON?

What do you think, Tom?

taraco (10/5/05 12:33 pm)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------Anyhow, I find this fascinating and hope everyone will help in the hunt.

The IMdB credits for SON OF FRANKENSTEIN include Dwight Frye as a villager (uncredited), Ward Bond Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------9

(uncredited), Eddie Parker! (uncredited), and Bud Wolfe (uncredited but listed also under 'stunts.')

So how would it have been Ed Wollf all these years instead of Bud Wolfe?

And as a sidenote, I can't recall where Dwight Frye is in SON. Is that right?

Ted Newsom (10/5/05 1:59 pm)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------Ed Wolff would've loomed over everybody else in a crowd scene; I think we can toss that out.

I've certainly never seen Dwight Frye in Son of Frankenstein. He was still acting-- i.e., being paid as a person who has lines of dialogue-- in 1939-- I don't think he'd been reduced to one of 20 people holding umbrellas in a studio rainstorm. My guess: typical IMDb bllshhtt, courtesy of spine-examiners who have no idea what they're talking about; they've confused the idea that Frye WAS a villager in the next two films, and the (presumed) fact that Frye is used for size comparison in the Technicolor test reel (and who knows if that's true or not.)

Eddie Parker my aching assss. Next thing y'know, somebody's gonna credit John Carradine for playing Ygor. ("I played 'im the way Mary Shelley wrote it in her original play, with white socks. The studio made me compromise, so I wore lederhosen instead. But Bela was shooting up, so the studio fired me and hired him instead. He got typecast as a werewolf and regretted it the rest of his life.")

But apparently it IS Ward Bond up front, yelling up at Old Ygor; Bond is a constable or something.

GAKENSTEIN (10/5/05 2:51 pm)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------Quote: ------I've certainly never seen Dwight Frye in Son of Frankenstein. ------

According to Mank's IT'S ALIVE!....

"In its original form, the film ran longer than one hundred minutes, and proper pacing demanded excisions. If Dwight Frye was upset by the cuts in his role in Bride..., he was devastated by the cuts in Son... which eliminates his entire part as an angry villager! While Universal has never clarified the nature of the cut scenes, the fact that Ward Bond, then winning status as a popular character player, is glimpsed only as a policeman in a mob scene at the Frankenstein gates, shouting at the horn-playing Lugosi, "Ygor! Shut up! You've been playing that thing all night!" implies that at least some of the footage was devoted to the police and their handling of the mobs." "Supernatural perhaps...baloney, perhaps not!"

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------10 taraco (10/5/05 3:28 pm)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------This is all fascinating stuff (Dwight Frye and all)...thanx guys...

I may email Don Glut and see if he has anything to add on Bud Wolfe vs. Ed Wollf...

Let's hold off on GHOST until we finalize SON...

Can anyone think of another scene beyond the sulphur fall where Karloff might have needed a double in SON?

Hu Phan (10/5/05 5:31 pm)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------Like most of the later films, the monster spends quite a bit of time on his back or fairly sedate. The only other sequence where a double could be used as far as I cane see is the hoisting sequence. As others have already said, it is visibly Boris in that scene.

One question I would raise though - the climax consists of two shots:-

(1) The Rathbone double swinging across and kicking the Karloff double off into the pit, and

(2) The shot of the monster falling into the sulphur.

Are we sure that it is the same stuntman in both shots?

Like many professions, stuntpeople often have very specific skills. For example, there are stunt performers who specialise in fire work, high falls, driving stunts, etc and always have been.

Is it possible that they used two stuntmen, one who could take the kick in the chest and fall backwards and another who could do what appeared to be quite a high (but controlled) fall into the sulphur?

From his other work in serials and the like, do we know what Bud Wolff specialised in or was particularly good at?

TomWeaver999 (10/5/05 5:34 pm)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------I don't know who takes the sulfur pit fall in SON. Glut used to say it was Bud Wolfe (COULD be, I guess ... but given Glut's track record of ears and spines, I'd want some reliable back-up), but now he says Ed Wolff (impossible). Unfortunately, the two-page photo spread on that sulfur pit fall stunt, published in some 1939 magazine (recently reprinted in MONSTERS FROM THE VAULT), didn't name the stuntman. At this late date, I have a feeling we'll never find out who did it. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------11

I'd say Eddie Parker's not a good candidate either -- he was another big galoot who, to the best of my limited knowledge, didn't do high falls.

ANOTHER thing to consider: There could be TWO Monster stuntmen in that scene. The one who got kicked by the chain-swinging Wolf (and fell off the lab's-edge into an off-camera net) may not be the same stuntman who, on a different set, took the loooong fall into the "sulfur."

TomWeaver999 (10/5/05 5:40 pm)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------<< Are we sure that it is the same stuntman in both shots? <<

Oh, how funny, Hu Phan -- we were raising the same question at the same time, and posted almost simultaneously.

I've only seen Bud Wolfe "stunting" in fistfight scenes -- in Chapter 11 of THE CRIMSON GHOST, he does a lot of acting before a very good fight scene, if anybody has that tape and wants to see what he looks like. (Holy times-on-our-hands!) If he had other specialties (high falls, horse falls, saddle falls, whatever), I don't know about it.

Ted Newsom (10/5/05 9:55 pm)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------I didn't think the shot of the monster falling into the pit looked like a moving, breathing human at all.

"Dummy" Chaney, anyone?

And as for

Quote: ------Dwight Frye ... was devastated by the cuts in Son... which eliminates[sic] his entire part as an angry villager! ------

... this means he wasn't in the movie... or am I misreading this simple, declarative sentence?

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/5/05 9:57 pm

TomWeaver999 (10/5/05 10:20 pm)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------<< I didn't think the shot of the monster falling into the pit looked like a moving, breathing human at all. <<

That 1939 photo spread I mentioned features pictures of the Monster being pulled out of the muck via what looks Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------12 like a trapeze, crew members coming to his rescue, etc. But, yes, I agree with you that there's at least one shot in the movie where the Monster does NOT look very lifelike there in the sulfur.

taraco (10/6/05 12:57 am)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------Let's just review all the stunt man evidence on SON OF FRANKENSTEIN.

Here again are photos and captions from the SON OF FRANKENSTEIN Magicimage Filmscript. He is called Bud Wolfe here:

Here, also from the Magicimage book, is a diagram of the fall -- in French -- from a 1939 source, Note where it says 'Le Double De Karloff,' and how the diagram makes the swing and fall appear to be one action:

Here are the pages from MONSTERS FROM THE VAULT #17 that Tom mentioned earlier.

Note that while the caption says the stuntman is 'Karloff,' that is clearly not the case (and thanx in advance to Jim Clatterbaugh for printing these in MFTV and hopefully having no objection to our reprinting them here): Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------13

Edited by: taraco at: 10/6/05 5:35 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------14 taraco (10/6/05 1:03 am)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------Here is the second page from MFTV. Note again that where the original article said it was 'Karloff,' it clearly is not: Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------15

Perhaps someone can come up with a photo of Bud Wolfe or Ed Wolff (you've already done it Ted!), and that might be useful in comparison to the giant in the greasepaint above! david Edited by: taraco at: 10/6/05 5:35 pm

Hu Phan (10/6/05 2:30 am)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------Fascinating stuff!

The photos of the guy being pulled out of the sulphur are pretty interesting as are the captions.

I personally feel that it is fair for Taraco and the rest of us to conclude that it is NOT Karloff in those pics. For the reason given in the captions (Karloff's known back problems going back to at least 1931 and probably to his earlier heavy labouring days) and his value as a star player, no way would he have been allowed to have done a stunt of that kind.

His long history of fighting for performer's rights (Screen Actors Guild, etc) would also preclude him from willingly taking work away from another performer. This was a guy who knew the value of a day's work.

Picture Number Nine gives us the clearest view of the stunt guy. Even taking into account the bulky costume including sheepskin jersey as well as the gunk stuck to him, that is a photo of quite a large gentleman. Not just tall, but very broad across the shoulders.

I don't know what we can assume from that - except that Ed Wolff seems to have been a very tall, but spindly sort of guy (from Colossus of New York) and not the bulky fellow seen in that pic.

Anyone have a photo of Bud Wolff in a normal sort of role?

Joe Karlosi (10/6/05 6:30 am)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------Amazing photos there! Did I miss that issue of MFTV? What's on the cover? ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Ted Newsom (10/6/05 8:09 am)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------The photos are remarkable. I was apparently wrong about the fall being done by a dummy (or at least a mannikin). I'd say the height of the stuntman might be decoptive in pic #9. Despite the lift-boots, he doesn't seem to loom over Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------16 the crew, which would probably make him 6 feet tall or so. I question why the first shot (the Wolf Swing) would necessitate a "35 foot drop," since the fog and smoke cover everything. Fascinatin', fascinatin'.

TomWeaver999 (10/6/05 9:31 am)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------Bud Wolfe was of average height, I think. I watched a few minutes of CRIMSON GHOST last night and he was about as tall as his fellow bad-guy Clayton Moore, and both were not THAT much taller than leading lady Linda Stirling.

taraco (10/6/05 9:37 am)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------The two pages of photos are from MFTV #17, the one with Ygor on the cover and the original Solvani's (Richard Scrivani's), piece defending SON OF FRANKENSTEIN.

taraco (10/6/05 12:44 pm)

Don Glut comments ... ------We asked Frankenstein expert (and many other things) Don Glut to comment on the Wolfe vs. Wolff debate. Here's what he emailed me this morning (I specifically asked whether he now thinks Ed was the stand-in in SON):

"It's stuntman Bud in SOF, Ed in COLOSSUS OF NY. The Bud info originally came from an old magazine article (ca. 1939) with photos and names. Bud was a stuntman who did serials, Westerns, etc. in the 1930s & 40s. I don't think Ed was a stuntman, just a big guy. I believe Ed was also the robot in PHANTOM CREEPS.

Don"

So I think we can be reasonably assured, for now, that Bud Wolfe is likely who it was. Unless new information comes to light.

(I've also asked at the Serial Squadron to see if anyone knows more).

NOTE: Don's original email had some names flipped. After further review, his comment above now reads correctly. david Edited by: taraco at: 10/6/05 2:59 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------17 taraco (10/6/05 1:03 pm)

Re: Who played the monster (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------Here's what 'Black Tiger' said at Serial Squadron:

'The New York Times database lists Bud Wolfe as well. As well as every other data base I've seen. Unless everyone is wrong, that's it. If anyone has access to interviews with either man or obituaries, that would be another way to check.

'Due to the heavy makeup, the photo image in inconclusive, but it could be Bud. '

Edited by: taraco at: 10/6/05 1:04 pm

taraco (10/6/05 9:18 pm)

The list so far ... ------OK, hope people aren't finding this tedious. Here's where we are after the first three films:

Who played the Monster ...

-- FRANKENSTEIN (1931)

Bela Lugosi (lost screen test) Boris Karloff

-- BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN (1935)

Boris Karloff George DeNormand (stuntman): Brief scenes may have included 'rescue' of shepherd girl; monster lifted on pole in long shot during 'crucifixion'; carrying Elizabeth in abduction (long shot); possibly castle explosion).

-- SON OF FRANKENSTEIN (1939)

Boris Karloff Bud Wolfe (stuntman): Stand-in for fall into sulphur pit.

These are open to new information and feel free to discuss or amend. david Edited by: taraco at: 10/6/05 9:20 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------18 taraco (10/6/05 9:29 pm)

Who played the Monster (GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------Let's move on to the fourth film, GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN, where the ubiquitous (or was he?), Eddie Parker debuts...

Lon Chaney Jr. takes over the monster role here, and has plenty of screen time.

In photos and from his own words, it is clear that it is Chaney -- and not a double -- who is covered in the hardened sulphur when he is found after the events of SON OF FRANKENSTEIN.

Here's what Chaney himself wrote in 1971, as printed in THE GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN Filmscript Series from Magicimage:

'For GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN, I had to be in makeup for the total shoot. In the beginning, they even had me covered in mud and plaster to simulate the dried sulphur when Bela Lugosi found me under the castle.

'If that wasn't rotten enough, I must have been allergic to the monster's headpiece or the glue, because I broke out in a rash under that gray-green greasepaint and I started to itch -- all down my back and around my forehead and scalp. The makeup men refused to take off the headpiece without Pierce's permission and no one else would help, so I tried to take it off myself and part of my forehead came off with it!'

-- Lon Chaney Jr., San Clemente, California, 1971

It's clear, then, that Chaney is there in the sulphur opening.

There are at least two scenes, however, where the burly -- and hard-drinking according to set members -- Chaney had a stand-in. All sources list Eddie Parker as the double.

Edited by: taraco at: 10/6/05 9:51 pm

taraco (10/6/05 9:48 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------Thanx, Forbidden one!

OK, then, here are two shots showing stuntman Eddie Parker taking over from Chaney in GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN (both from Riley's Magicimage book).

In the first, Parker substitutes for Chaney in the roof scene. Young Janet Ann Gallows is a dummy, by the way: Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------19

At the end of the film, Parker doubles during the fire scene in longer shots and during destruction scenes. But the closeups of the Monster being burned are Chaney.

Here's Parker again: Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------20

That seems to be the only two cases where Parker takes over.

A question. There is confusion still over which scenes Parker played (if any!), in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN. Before we get there, are there any doubts that it indeed is Parker in GHOST? david

TomWeaver999 (10/6/05 10:11 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------<< are there any doubts that it indeed is Parker in GHOST? <<

I won't say that I doubt it, but -- as always -- I'd enjoy hearing where that information ("In GHOST, Parker is the Monster HERE, and HERE, and HERE") came from. Parker died long before ANYbody was talking to ANYbody about this stuff.

Gil Perkins, who played the Monster in parts of FRANK MEETS WOLF MAN, told me he was in more than one movie as the Monster, but I never was able to get him to remember what he did in the other movie(s). He had a good memory so I don't think it's possible that he did the SON sulfur fall -- he'd have remembered that. And there ARE no Monster "stunts" in the HOUSE movies. That leaves GHOST.

What does that all mean? I dunno, I'm just "tossing it out there"!

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------21

TomWeaver999 (10/6/05 10:14 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------By the way, according to Eddie Parker's bosom buddy Jack Ingram (longtime B-Western and serial baddie), Parker had a sideline job driving a hearse for some funeral parlor. And one thing Parker liked to do, according to Ingram, was find an opportunity to crawl in the back of the hearse and try on the dead man's shoes -- and, if they fit, keep 'em!

nightmarekey (10/6/05 11:35 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN) ------Quote: ------At the end of the film, Parker doubles during the fire scene in longer shots and during destruction scenes. But the closeups of the Monster being burned are Chaney. ------

There is also a brief medium-closeup of Parker(?) "grabbing & backing away" from the flames which was recycled in HOUSE OF DRACULA... clearly not Chaney....

TomWeaver999 (10/6/05 11:52 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------Was it GHOST where perhaps a dummy of the Monster was used in one scene where he's supposed to be recuperating?

nightmarekey (10/7/05 1:06 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------Quote: ------Was it GHOST where perhaps a dummy of the Monster was used in one scene where he's supposed to be recuperating? ------

Possibly... quite probably the same dummy used at the end of the "flashback" sequences where "Elsa" read the "diaries"....

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------22

Ted Newsom (10/7/05 1:14 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------If you're referring to the shot with the Monster wrapped up in a bandage like Frankenstein's Daughter, I'm bettin' that's still Chaney. It just looks weird because of the low, up-the-nostril angle.

The fire shot (above) is probably a stuntman-- BUT -- there's another still floating around with a very-obviously-Chaney in an identical burn make-up to the one above, clothing singed and torn the same, etc., posing outside with the very large model chateau burning behind him, in nearly the same pose as the interior shot posted here.

I'm for voting Eddie Parker off the GHOST island until somebody comes up with some absolute verification. I don't consider a caption in Phil Riley's book authoratative. The still of the Monster and the Dummy Cloestein had been reproduced elsewhere previously (i.e., Russ Jones' Modern Monsters, circa 1966) with no such identification-- which makes sense, because the "Parker is Everywhere" rumor had not spread yet (The erroneous Modern Monsters article came out nearly the same time.)

SparkieGojira (10/7/05 1:14 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------Quote: ------And one thing Parker liked to do, according to Ingram, was find an opportunity to crawl in the back of the hearse and try on the dead man's shoes -- and, if they fit, keep 'em! ------

This thread is fascinating! I've nothing uselful to add of course, but I am sure following in it in fascination and appreciation for all the hard work! "NO BEDS!"

Hu Phan (10/7/05 4:11 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------

Just scanning through Ghost of Frankenstein on DVD (yes, not much of a life I'm afraid!), I thought I would add my thoughts on the key monster sequences:-

YGOR DIGS MONSTER OUT OF SULPHUR

It is essentially two shots from when Ygor approaches the dangling hand and starts pulling sulphur and rocks away to reveal the monster. First, the two-shot of Lugosi and the Monster, second a close-up of the monster opening eyes and moving as he is pulled away. There seems perfect continuity between these shots and the camera positions are sufficiently different that the whole scene could have been captured in real time with two cameras. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------23

Chaney's face is quite visible through these shots and there is nothing to indicate a double.

MONSTER GETS RE-ENERGISED BY LIGHTNING

Several shots, quit well lit with consistent make-up and appearance. Looks like Chaney in each shot.

ENTRY INTO VASARIA, MEETS GALLOW, CLIMBS ROOF TO GET BALLOON

In all of the relevant sequences it appears to be Chaney. Close-ups on the roof are a studio set with the long shots being a stuntman and Gallow doll. The long shot of the villager being knocked off the roof seen in the trailer also appears to be the stuntman.

STRUGGLE WITH VILLAGERS, COURT SEQUENCE

All Chaney to my eyes,except the opening long shot of the court room. The monster as seen at the rear of the shot looks skinnier than Chaney appears in the following close-ups. This may be just my eyes but the difference is notable.

CREATION FLASHBACK

Assorted shots from Frankenstein and Bride of Frankenstein including Karloff on the table (so we can sort of say Karloff played the monster in this film as well.)

One new close-up of bandages being removed from the monster's face seemingly revealing Chaney. I personally do not feel that is a dummy - though the make-up looks a little waxier in that scene.

MONSTER ENTERS HOUSE AND KILLS KETTERING

The shot inside the house with the door bursting inwards and the monster stomping down the steps does NOT appear to be Chaney to me. The figure seems taller and again less bulky than Chaney. Given the scene involves forcing the door and the potential for injury, it is possible that a double was used here.

This is followed by a few shots of Chaney stomping about and Lugosi urging him to "Come away." There are a couple of views of the back of the monster seen from a distance carrying the corpse of Kettering and later the unconscious Elsa (Evelyn Ankers.) Given the way those bits are filmed with no view of the monster's face, the opportunity for doubling is clearly there, especially given the possibility of injury from bodily carrying actors around in the heavy costume and make-up.

MONSTER PASSING OUT FROM GAS

This is also seen from the rear with the monster falling face-forward and we do not get a clear view of his visage. Again the potential for a double for an awkward fall onto a hard floor.

MONSTER ON OPERATING TABLE, TRIES TO ESCAPE Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------24

Evidently Chaney in all shots, including the up-the-nose oddity that Ted Newsom mentioned. Same waxy look to make-up as in flashback sequence, so probably shot on the same day.

"BUILD UP THE VOLTAGE POTENTIAL TO ITS MAXIMUM!"

After Ygor proposes having his brain popped in and this is rejected by Frankenstein Jnr, the monster is re-charged. There is one long shot in which the creature is seen on the table and this does look a bit like a dummy but may just be a lighting issue.

MONSTER IN THE VAULT WITH YGOR

All Chaney.

MONSTER VISITS GALLOW

Pure Chaney-ness to my eyes.

MONSTER 'DOORS' YGOR, CONFRONTATION WITH FRANKENSTEIN AND DAUGHTER

Once again, looks to be all Chaney.

BEGINNING OF SURGERY

Hardwicke pulls back the sheet to reveal at a distance the monster's face. There is no up and down movement of the chest of the monster and the figure does not appear to be Chaney. I think in that shot alone it may be a dummy of some kind.

BANDAGED UP MONSTER IN BED

No idea, but it does not look like Chaney. A different make-up of course to show post operative swelling and the bandages do not help, so it could be anyone.

"I AM NOT DOCTOR KETTERING"

All Chaney, but vocals dubbed by Lugosi. So in a roundabout way we can say that Lugosi also plays the monster in this film.

Seems to be Chaney in all the shots leading up to the fire sequence.

FIRE SEQUENCE Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------25

Consists of the following shots that include the monster:-

(i) Monster staggers blindly about, knocks over racks of chemicals that explodes in flames.

(ii) Close-up on monster as he puts hands into flames, retreats mouth agape.

(iii) Overhead shot of monster staggering about, flames, etc, more explosions.

(iv) Lower level shot showing similar staggering around to (iii)

(v) Closer view of monster's face moving side to side in flames with some burn make-up.

(vi) After cut to flames, similar shot to (v) but with more severe burn make-up.

(vii) After cuts to external model of house, fleeing villagers, another close up with yet more severe burns.

(viii) Very elaborate shot as camera pulls back showing breaking window, flames, collapsing beams and monster being buried beneath debris.

In my opinion, shots (i), (iii), (iv) and (viii) are all stunt doubles, both due to faces being obscured and the obviously dangerous sequences involving fire.

The remainder - (ii), (v), (vi) and (vii) all appear to be Chaney in various make-up stages and the close ups are clear enough to verify this.

That leaves a bit of a mystery - the famous photo of Chaney (and it is clearly he) with burn make-up standing in front of the burning house. Is it possible that in the original cut, the monster makes it out of the house before collapsing from the damage wrought by the flame? Certainly, the make-up in that photo is consistent with that in shot (vii) though the monster is in the house at that point.

In summary, I think the following people played the monster in this film:-

(1) Lon Chaney Jnr.

(2) Boris Karloff - shots from Frankenstein only as incorporated.

(3) Bela Lugosi - voice dubbing only.

(4) A dummy during the surgical sequence and recharging scene.

(5) At least one stunt performer, though maybe more. There is no way to know if it was Parker or others in the fire sequences versus the roof top stuff.

Scenes in which a double seems to be used:-

(1) Roof top sequences - long shots. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------26

(2) Court sequence, first long shot - but only a maybe.

(3) Monster knocking door down.

(4) Monster carrying Kettering and Elsa around.

(5) Monster passing out from the gas.

(6) Bandaged up monster in bed - but really could be anyone.

(7) Four shots of the climatic fire sequence.

taraco (10/7/05 8:41 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------An amazing post, Hu Phan, almost Prange-ian in its completeness!!

Scene by scene precision is what this is all about.

This is obvious, but during the fire sequence, Chaney was shot separately in front of bunson burner type flames as his face showed increasing burns.

Edited by: taraco at: 10/7/05 1:57 pm

taraco (10/7/05 8:52 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------Tom raises a strong point about Eddie Parker. Is it enough to give him an asterisk?

Every source -- IMdB, Glut, Riley, Universal Horrors, etc. -- lists Eddie Parker as the stuntman in GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN.

But as Tom notes, where is the corroborating evidence?

-- In the case of DeNormand in BRIDE we have a quote from DeNormand talking about it (as seen in an earlier post).

-- In the case of Bud Wolfe in SON, we have repeated instances of his name listed, and photos of a stuntman, but no testimony.

-- Similarly, in the case of Parker in GHOST, we have photos and listings, but no testimony.

Was no one ever interviewed anywhere who ever mentioned Parker by name?

But still, it seems to me the preponderence of the evidence shows we have to go with Wolfe and Parker as the guys in Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------27

SON and GHOST. Is skepticism enough to strike their names entirely? I'm not so sure...

(By the way, Parker sure worked hard...the IMdB list hundreds of films. Which either adds credence to his appearance in GHOST or means he was sort of the catch-all name of his time! Double for Mr. Chaney: Alan Smithee) david Edited by: taraco at: 10/7/05 8:54 am

Wolfman Joe (10/7/05 10:19 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------This is all fascinating stuff, but I have yet another question: what about the makeup jobs on these stuntmen? Clearly they were not meant to be seen for long, or clearly (little did filmmakers suspect DVDs back then!), so what sort of makeup was used on them? Slapdash versions of the "hero" makeups? Pierce didn't use prefabricated rubber appliances, I believe, so does this mean every stuntman got a "ground-up" (or "skin-up") makeup job? Did Pierce do these jobs himself? Or did he in fact use slip-on appliances for these brief moments of screen time? And by the way, great post, Hu Phan!

taraco (10/7/05 10:25 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------There's lots of additional information about Eddie Parker, George DeNormand and others in the Eddie Parker thread.

I closed it just now to:

1) Avoid confusion.

2) Try to keep the discussion moving film by film here. We'll get to FMTWM shortly.

I will note that the original Eddie Parker thread starts off with tons of bad information (mostly from me recounting a piece in Filmfax about Parker, much of which has been since disputed). Thankfully, Ted Newsom and Tom Weaver and others bring up several of the other stuntmen mentioned here again.

Anyhow, I'm hoping this can be the defintive thread, and we can end up with a list that, even if asterisks must abound, will stand as THE list of Frankenstein stuntmen and doubles.

So onward...Edited by: taraco at: 10/7/05 10:26 am

Ted Newsom (10/7/05 10:57 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------28

------Re: Ghost There's one shot when Chaney enters the chataeu with Cloestein under his arm, much to Hardwicke's and Ankers' consternation. The angle on Chaney and the lighting makes him look-- to me, anyway-- like a dead ringer for Karloff in the Monster make-up. No, of course, it's not Karloff, but I point this out to keep the Chaney-options open. Just because a given angle or lighting scheme make an actor look "different" does not mean Eddie Parker Strikes Again.

Regarding the posed shot of Chaney in front of the burning castle (or whatever), I should think the still was deliberately posed to take advantage of the pyro gag of the large-scale miniature, rather than it being representative of some other kind of climax (like the Monster stumbles out of the house).

Further, that still (won't somebody find it, please?) is clearly 1) outside on the backlot and 2) shot at night.

Assuming that it was a typical studio day, starting at 8-ish in the morning... and assuming (perhaps) that the interior lab still reproduced above of the Monster is in fact Chaney (and it looks like him to me, despite the danger of the fire)... and assuming this scene was shot during the process of a normal working day... then...

... this would indicate that Chaney may have been working all day and into the night (the latter, for the still-shot). I'd always thought, for some reason, that the anecdote about him ripping the headpiece off was on that evening, rather than during the day. No reason for it, just had a feeling. And if he'd had that damnnnd thing on for 12 hours, there'd be every reason for it.

Regarding making-up doubles-- Pierce would've handled the primary make-up, with an assistant doing the secondary work. DeNormand mentions this in his interviw on Bride of F.

TomWeaver999 (10/7/05 10:59 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------<< But as Tom notes, where is the corroborating evidence? <<

Yeah, I'm afraid it's always bugged me (and now, I see, others) that the list of stunt players in these movies have come out of books and mags whose authors never gave any indication of how they could possibly have found out. We'd all still be saying it was Eddie Parker as the Monster at the end of FRANK MEETS WOLF MAN if I hadn't called Gil Perkins (circa 1986) to talk about TEENAGE MONSTER, and that wonderful ol' motormouth hadn't started "swinging down Memory Lane" and free-associating and talking about other genre pics in which he worked -- KING KONG, the Spencer Tracy JEKYLL & HYDE and ... FRANK MEETS WOLF MAN. How many other bogus "Parker sightings" might have been dispelled with a call to some garrulous oldtime stuntman?

I'm afraid we might have to list Parker with an asterisk every time, yes.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------29

TomWeaver999 (10/7/05 11:07 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------And, as for whether Jack Pierce did the makeup on the stuntmen or not, all I know is that Gil Perkins told me, talking about TEENAGE MONSTER, "I knew Jack Pierce from Universal: I had done several Frankenstein pictures in which I doubled Frankenstein, so I had to have the Frankenstein makeup on me. And in another picture I doubled the Wolf Man and I had to have the Wolf Man makeup on me. So I'd been in the makeup chair with Jack Pierce making me up long before we got to TEENAGE MONSTER."

THAT, needless to say, was the point at which I, after a whole bunch of "homina homina homina"s, directed the conversation away from freakin', who-cares?? TEENAGE MONSTER and onto the Frankenstein movies.

taraco (10/7/05 11:07 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------So do none of the original production records and studio documents -- reviewed by historians like Tom Weaver, David Skal, Greg Mank, Gary Don Rhodes, etc. etc. -- show George DeNormand, Bud Wolfe, Eddie Parker as part of the cast or crew?

You know, like Item 496: Falling into the pit: $45, Wolfe.

Is there no documentation at all? That would surprise me, but ... david Edited by: taraco at: 10/7/05 11:22 am

TomWeaver999 (10/7/05 11:16 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN) ... ------<< So do none of the original production records and studio documents show George DeNormand, Bud Wolfe, Eddie Parker as part of the cast or crew? <<

It's been too many years -- gosh, about 17 or 18 now -- since the Bruni and I went through what little was left of that stuff. Over the years, what Universal didn't trash, and what wasn't stolen, was lost in fires and even a flood(!), we were told. On some movies, like THE GREAT IMPERSONATION (1935), there was a good bit of stuff left. For, say, THE WOLF MAN -- exactly ONE piece of paper -- a memo asking, in effect, "Just out of curiosity, how much more would this cost if we made it in color?" That's ALLLLLL from THE WOLF MAN. I don't remember more than a small handful of paperwork, mostly useless,* from ANY of the Universal monster pics.

* "So-and-so, a gaffer, cut his finger," "Art director Alexander Golitzen wants Thursday off to go to the Oscars," etc.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------30 taraco (10/7/05 11:30 am)

Re: Useless ...? ------Well, we have to say it was somebody, even if with an asterisk! Don't we?

Anyhow, is this thread great or what?

Let's hold off on FMTWM a little while longer and see if more people weigh in on whether there's any additional evidence that it's Parker -- or not Parker -- in GHOST.

Mr. Mank? Mr. Rhodes?

Edited by: taraco at: 10/7/05 11:31 am

Ted Newsom (10/7/05 12:00 pm)

Re: Useless ...? ------

Quote: ------Mr. Mank? Mr. Rhodes? ------

No, I don't think it was either of them...

Regarding an alleged dummy Chaney on GHOST: Since Chaney was clearly on the set for SOME of the lab shots during the examination, revival, and later, the gassing of the villagers, it stands to reason that's him in ALL of the shots. He's on salary, in make-up, the set is lit, etc., and there were no explosions or fire gags to worry about.

Regarding the destruction of the lab in the climax, yes, the more dangerous gags were undoubtedly handled by a stunt double. The lobbycard on the right-- to these eyes-- shows a monster who appears to be slimmer than Chaney looks in the rest of the film. Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/7/05 12:02 pm Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------31

Hu Phan (10/7/05 5:40 pm)

Re: Useless ...? ------Thanks to Tom W, Taraco and Wolfman Joe for their kind words about my earlier post.

Ted's comments above about Chaney being on the lab set for the examination scene etc make perfect sense. Why go through a time consuming make-up job on another actor or build a dummy when you have a contract player on set?

I suppose therefore that quite a few of the double or dummy sightings are unrealistic assumptions when that is taken into account.

I still have my doubts though about the long shots during the recharging scene. As the close-ups show, when Chaney is on his back, his face spreads out. He has quite pronounced jowls. He was a big guy. In the long shots (taken from the side) the monster's face looks very symmetrical. It is an immobile face as unnatural as Joan Crawford's breasts pointing at the sky near the end of Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?!

Looking at it again now, I feel certain that must have been a dummy (and if you have a dummy for one shot why not use it elsewhere - such as the first shot of the operation?)

davlghry (10/8/05 1:54 pm)

Re: ------Fascinating thread! (Not Universal but I'd still like to know who played the Herman Munster-like Monster in the color short TWO HEARTS IN WAX TIME from 1935.)

taraco (10/8/05 4:07 pm)

Who played the Monster (40s odds and sods) ... ------Before we get to FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN -- where the Eddie Parker issue will deepen -- let's deal with a few 40s miscellaneous appearances:

First of all, here's a still of Boris Karloff in 1940, his last appearance as the monster until the Route 66 episode two decades later. Here he's at a charity baseball game, and supposedly that is Buster Keaton catching!

That's pretty well-documented, and I've seen film as well on the HOLLYWOOD AND THE STARS TV show, so Karloff it is!

Here's a bigger mystery. The 1941 Universal film Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------32

HELLZAPOPPIN had a brief cameo of the Monster. I've never seen the film so anyone who can comment about it, please do.

I found this photo at a website, supposedly from HELLZAPOPPIN. But I gotta say, that looks a whole lot like Glenn Strange. Anyone know if this shot is from HELLZAPOPPIN, during filming, or something else?

Whether that's the right image or not, the Monster does appear.

Don Glut's FRANKENSTEIN CATALOG says HELLZAPOPPIN had 'an actor made up as the Monster,' but also, in the credits, says 'Dale Van Sickel (Frankenstein Monster.'

In the IMdB, Van Sickel -- who seems to have been a perennial extra -- is listed as Man Who Falls Into Pond in HELLZAPOPPIN. The Monster is not mentioned. (One of his later roles was 'Man Crushed By Wall' in EARTH VS. THE FLYING SAUCERS).

Anyhow, anyone have any info on HELLZAPOPPIN, whether that's a correct photo, and if not, what and who is it, and who might have played the Monster? david Edited by: taraco at: 10/8/05 4:08 pm

federal operator 99 (10/8/05 4:21 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (40s odds and sods) ... ------Quote: ------Anyone know if this shot is from HELLZAPOPPIN, during filming, or something else? ------

I once read that the photo of Frankenstein toting the mermaid was a publicity photo shot when "Mr. Peabody and the Mermaid" was being filmed concurrently with "Abbott & Costello Meet Frankenstein" on the Universal lot. The winsome lass with the fins is Ann Blythe (who co-starred with William Powell) and the Monster, of course, is Glenn Strange.

TomWeaver999 (10/8/05 4:52 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (40s odds and sods) ... ------<< Van Sickel -- who seems to have been a perennial extra -- is listed as Man Who Falls Into Pond in HELLZAPOPPIN. The Monster is not mentioned. << Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------33

Van Sickel is one of the Republic serial greats -- he was the hero's stunt double or the main villain's double in dozens of Republic serials, as well as playing other, separate roles throughout the serials. He did most or all of the action stuff in CAPTAIN AMERICA, for instance.

At the end of Chapter 11 of THE CRIMSON GHOST, the big fistfight pits Dale Van Sickel (supposedly the Monster in HELLZAPOPPIN, but who knows where THAT came from) against Bud Wolfe! FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE ... well, FRANKENSTEIN.

Van Sickel is also one of the many Mr. Hydes at the end of A&C MEET JEKYLL & HYDE, he did the stunt-driving of Dennis Weaver's car in DUEL (another Frankenstein stunt veteran, Carey Loftin, drove the truck), etc.

Ted Newsom (10/8/05 5:06 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (40s odds and sods) ... ------The catcher IS Buster Keaton. There's at least one more photo from that game, with Boris tromping into home base, and Keaton, sans catcher's mask, beginning to fall backward like a board.

I don't know who misidentified the mermaid photo as Hellzapoppin, but, yes, obviously that's Glenn Strange. There are a number of goofy photos of him on the lot, like walking with Bobby Barber and Lenore Aubert.

In HELLZAPOPPIN', the Monster is in the audience of the theater in which HELLZAPOPPIN is being performed, within the movie HELLZAPOPPIN. He throws some woman-- maybe it's Martha Raye-- from about the sixth row across the theater and onto the stage. It's a wire gag. He actually has one line of dialogue, although it's offscreen and may not be the actor in the make-up, and I forget what it is; innocuous, like "Let me help," or something. I've always read it was Dale Van Sickle. The Monster is so far from camera (20, maybe 30 feet) it's nigh onto impossible to recognize those famed Van Sickle ear whorls, although he doesn't seem to have an S-shaped spine.

davlghry (10/8/05 6:04 pm)

Re:Who played the Monster ------

Isn't there a publicity shot from HELLZAPOPPIN' that shows Olsen and Johnson reading a comic book with the monster?

TomWeaver999 (10/8/05 6:46 pm)

Re: Re:Who played the Monster ------My memory is that it's Glenn Strange being made-up as the Monster in that shot, so O&J must have been photographed with him during a 1944 or '45 visit to Pierce's makeup room.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------34 taraco (10/8/05 7:48 pm)

Re: Re:Who played the Monster ------Man, you guys are the best!

Anyhow, so we'll add Dale Van Sickel (Sickle?), as a monster man.

With the same caveats as many of the others. That is, says who? david taraco (10/8/05 8:52 pm)

Who played the Monster (FRANKENSTEIN; addendum) ------We received an email from David Skal, currently a professor in Victoria, Canada (!), who offered this additional information about the original FRANKENSTEIN (1931):

'Interesting thread. All I can add about the original film is that Karloff was doubled in three scenes.

'1) a double wearing street shoes is under the sheet at the beginning of the creation sequence, one foot clearly visible (if you aren't paying attention to Clive and Frye, which most people are).

'2) next is the scene with Karloff face down on the floor after he's been sedated by Van Sloan. A close examination of key book stills reveals a stand-in with noticeably hairier arms than Karloff.

'3) same hairy arms are visible in stills of the table's ascension into the storm. Given the grueling physical ordeal this film turned out to be for Karloff (resulting in a permanent back injury), it's not surprising that a stand-in might have been used for scenes and shots that didn't require acting, or even the showing of Karloff's face.'

Prof. Skal offers no name for this hairy-armed stand-in, but his email is more evidence that there's more going on in the making of these films than we realized! david Edited by: taraco at: 10/8/05 8:54 pm

taraco (10/8/05 9:01 pm)

Two Hearts in Wax Time ------>>Not Universal but I'd still like to know who played the Herman Munster-like Monster in the color short TWO HEARTS IN WAX TIME from 1935.

I had never heard of this. But in Don Glut's FRANKENSTEIN CATALOG, he lists TWO HEARTS IN WAX TIME as a 1935 MGM short (15 mins.), where 'a drunken man imagines store window figures of Frankenstein's Monster Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------35 and other villains coming to life to menace him.'

Then, searching around the Web, I found a year-old thread at Phorum's scifilm.org, where this short was discussed after it was shown on TCM.

Fan Stuart Gardner posted about it in April 2004, and captured several photos (!), from the showing. Here's one he posted showing the Frankenstein monster (standing at right):

And here's what Stuart Gardner posted:

'A couple of months ago I turned on the television and was amazed to see a vintage (it looks to date from between the late '30s through the '40s) Frankenstein monster which I didn't recognize. The actor's makeup and costume are Universal's/Jack Pierce's, but it's an MGM short. I'm puzzled because Universal have always been protective of their monster's look, so I would think that this appearance of the that design in an MGM product would be well known.

'I only saw the last minute and a half or so of this thing. The action takes place on a small stage which looks like a storefront window display. An oversized book titled The Greatest Menace of them All is propped up stage-front and center, and four or five stock villainous characters are standing on the stage; one, I think, is Genghis Khan. The Frankenstein monster was singing (decades before Young Frankenstein) when I turned on the television; he's the last character stage left, and I had the impression that each of these characters had just sung a little bit each in turn laying their claim to the title of "Greatest Menace of them All."

'This is all being watched by a drunk wearing a top hat and tails, and I thought he was played by Leon Errol, but I don't think Errol worked for MGM (I know it's an MGM film because their logo appears at the fade out). The short is in color. Can anyone tell me what this is, please?

'Moreover, can anyone tell me how MGM were able to use Universal's very protected Frankenstein monster "look," with the flat head, the neck bolts, etc.? The makeup and costume are very good, and the creature closely resembles Karloff in Bride of Frankenstein; the suit, for example, is mud-splattered.

'Obviously, my curiosity about this is considerable.'

Here is the entire thread at Phorum including Stuart's photos and questions: www.scifilm.org/talk/read.php?f=1&i=32151&t=32151

After subsequent discussions, it was determined that this indeed was TWO HEARTS IN WAX TIME.

The usual searches find the film described, and ImdB lists Frank Hayes as playing 'Frank the mannequin' (uncredited). Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------36

There's no further info on Frank Hayes. But is this yet ANOTHER Frankenstein monster??

Anyone know any more? david Edited by: taraco at: 10/8/05 9:31 pm

TomWeaver999 (10/8/05 9:43 pm)

Re: Two Hearts in Wax Time ------<< same hairy arms are visible in stills of the table's ascension into the storm. <<

I'm kinda sorry to hear this, because ... didn't we just talk about the fact that Karloff once mentioned in an interview being on that lab table as it rose? Did Karloff ... LIE?

Or did he perhaps NOT provide that quote? Maybe it was from some movie's pressbook, or another equally unreliable source, and some publicist just made up that quote and attributed it to Boris.

"Dear Boris" ... umpteen times married, wife- and daughter-dumper, the Hollywood Blvd. ladies-of-the-evenings' favorite "swordsman," "the stingiest guy that ever lived" (according to VOODOO ISLAND producer Aubrey Schenck) and now ... possibly a fibber?? Oh, the pain -- the pain! ; ) davlghry (10/8/05 10:06 pm)

Re:Two Hearts in Wax Time ------

<< There's no further info on Frank Hayes. But is this yet ANOTHER Frankenstein monster??

We discussed this in detail a few years ago on the CHFB and determined that this was probably the Monster's first film appearance in color. The makeup is similar to Pierce's except the Monster in TWO HEARTS is bald on top (kinda like Peter Boyle in YF) and is more comical than scary. One of the other villains is Fu Manchu. taraco (10/8/05 10:29 pm)

Re: Re:Two Hearts in Wax Time ------A further check of IMdB shows only one other listing for Frank Hayes.

He shows up as a 'vocalist' (uncredited) in TIMES SQUARE LADY, also 1935.

So that would bolster the evidence that Frank Hayes, listed as 'Frank the mannequin' indeed could very well have been the singing Frankenstein monster from TWO HEARTS IN WAX TIME.

david — Edited by: taraco at: 10/8/05 10:34 pm Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------37

TomWeaver999 (10/9/05 12:10 am)

Re: Re:Two Hearts in Wax Time ------HOLLYWOOD REPORTER calls Frank Hayes a "radio tenor."

davlghry (10/9/05 12:36 am)

Re:Re:Two Hearts in Wax Time ------

<< So that would bolster the evidence that Frank Hayes, listed as 'Frank the mannequin' indeed could very well have been the singing Frankenstein monster from TWO HEARTS IN WAX TIME.

There are a lot of mannequins in TWO HEARTS. I think it's just as likely that Frank Hayes is billed as Frank the Mannequin because his actual name is Frank.

The Batman of Gotham (10/9/05 4:26 am)

Re: Re:Re:Two Hearts in Wax Time ------Incidentally.... "Two Hearts in Wax Time" is a short film that is mostly noted for the early appearance of Jerome ( Curly ) Howard of The Three Stooges fame.

Therefore... I wouldn't be surprised to find out that a group of 'Stoogephiles' have already thoroughly dissected this film rarity '3 ways to Sunday'. It wouldn't hurt to contact a Stooges Forum to find out what they know about it.

- GJS

Now I'll have to dig through my video tapes to find my copy of Two Hearts in Wax Time!

Ted Newsom (10/9/05 5:00 am)

Re: Re:Re:Two Hearts in Wax Time ------2 Hearts played on TCM last year or the year before. It's pretty much on one set, a street in front of the department store. The drunk (no, sadly, not Leon Errol) imagines the monsters come alive and they do some cockamamie song and dance. I forget the "big payoff" but it was pretty lame. It's not particularly cinematic, either, compared to the contemporary Warners'/Busby stuff, or even slightly later MGM shorts or features. Obviously this thing came out post-Bride; the lack of hair on the Monster and his dusty costume look like Karloff's second go-round. The color is nice.

I certainly didn't see Curly anywhere. Curly had debuted with Moe & Larry in 1930 or 31 in several (pretty painful) Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------38

2-color Tech' shorts with that most unfunny of primates, Ted Healy, with whom I am ashamed to share a name. The Stooges were under contract to Columbia for shorts (if not features) from about 1935 onward. Why, then, would Brother Jerome backslide into a bit part for another studio? I dunno, but it make-a no-sense to me.

If we're getting offtrack from strictly Universal, then we should include the roller skating monster played by Harry Ritz (or Al, or whomever. To quote Tom Weaver on Olsen & Johnson, who gives a damn?). The Ritzes play "The Horror Men" in a dance number, and one of them playing the Monster is duded up pretty well with a facsimile of the Pierce make-up. He even sucks in his cheeks to emulate Karloff's lack of back partial plates. The other two "horror men" are Peter Lorre (?) and Charles Laughton as Captain Bligh (?!?!?!). I don't understand the choices, unless all three actors were working at Fox at the time (i.e., Mr.Moto, Charlie Chan at the Opera, and whatever with Laughton.)

Regarding Universal's propietary attitude toward the character & make-up: that really doesn't seem to have been in force until the 1950s. A lot of live horror-shows used the image of the Monster in ads and on stage, with anonymous actors in a mask. One even bragged that Glenn Strange was the on-stage Monster; relatives of his came backstage to meet him. Strange was in Hollywood at the time and the troupe did a lot of backpedaling to get the kinfolk out of there. Universal probably didn't care about brief appearances in spoofs like 2 Hearts.

HEY!!! When we get to it, let's not forget the equally unfunny Pete Smith Specialty, THREE DIMENSIONAL MYSTERY, made the year after Son of Frankenstein, using a facsimile of the make-up as well as a duplicate of the big, hairy coat.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/9/05 5:12 am

taraco (10/9/05 8:38 am)

Re: Two Hearts in Wax Time ------Not to belabor this, but a Jeff C. posted at another board (blowhole.com or something!), the following:

'Did anyone catch the title of that bizarre short TCM ran today? As always, the VCR kicked in way too late.

'Looked to be circa 1936 -- a miniature musical set in various department store windows --- the highlight of which was a musical depiction of "menaces"... Fu Man Chu, Bluebeard, a Pirate and the Frankenstein monster!

'Was quite a jolt to see a reasonable facsimile of Karloff, in 3-Strip, saying "We Belong Dead!" ' ------Those of you who have seen this, is that true that he says (or sings), that?

Proves again the power of the early Universals that a catchphrase like that would be used long before TV replays, videos and fan magazines!

Also, yes, I will check some of the Three Stooges sites -- Lunkhead anyone? -- but every time I get to one I start laughing because the topic headings and departments are so funny. Pick two!

Anyhow, there's also an active discussion about Stooge horror in general -- called Three Stooges, Monster Fighters -- going on at our very own boards in the Golden Age Horror folder. david ---Edited by: taraco at: 10/9/05 9:07 am Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------39

ForbiddenZone (10/9/05 9:06 am)

Re: Re:Two Tenors in Plenty of Time ------I know we're still talking about the 40's films...but I can't wait until you get to the '52 live TV version of Frankenstein with Chaney Jr!

TomWeaver999 (10/9/05 9:50 am)

Re: Re:Two Tenors in Plenty of Time ------The movie in which one of the Ritz Brothers plays the Monster is ONE IN A MILLION, which is on the Fox Movie Channel soon (I noticed it in the listings the last time I looked at the Fox website). There's a picture of the three of 'em playing Lorre, Laughton and the Monster in Leonard Maltin's MOVIE COMEDY TEAMS, page 224.

taraco (10/9/05 10:00 am)

Re: One in a Million ------Wow, this is ranging far and wide, but the completist in all of us demands it be so!

Anyhow, as Tom noted, here's the photo of the Ritz Brothers as Peter Lorre (M), Charles Laughton (Mutiny on the Bounty), and the Monster from ONE IN A MILLION (1936):

Don Glut's FRANKENSTEIN CATALOG notes that it is Al Ritz as the Monster.

Are they on ice skates in this, or were doubles used during the skating? And if so, who skated as... ? (Never mind!)

david

taraco (10/9/05 10:09 am)

Re: Third Dimensional Murder ------The Pete Smith short -- thanx Ted! -- was called THIRD DIMENSIONAL MURDER (1941), and Ed Payson is listed as playing the Monster.

We couldn't find an image online, but once again, MONSTERS FROM THE VAULT (#12 to be exact), comes to the rescue. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------40

Here's a photo from an article by Michael Price about the Pete Smith short. He says Ed Parsons, however, played the 3-D Monster:

That bottom photo looks like Broadway's Phantom in a way. Anyhow, amazing stuff!

david Edited by: taraco at: 10/9/05 10:21 am

TomWeaver999 (10/9/05 12:25 pm)

Re: Third Dimensional Murder ------<< Michael Price about the Pete Smith short. He says Ed Parsons, however, played the 3-D Monster: <<

It HAS to be Payson -- his character names in his other movies (Wrestler, Thug, Athlete, etc.) make him sound like he'd be right for the part. And I've checked a couple books here (including the AFI CATALOG) and IMDB, and it looks like there never was an actor named Ed Parsons. taraco (10/9/05 1:13 pm)

Re: Third Dimensional Murder ------Payson it is, then. Musta been a typo.

I gotta say again, it's fascinating that the Frankenstein monster, in the space of only a few films, became an immediate icon, even in the 30s and 40s.

Edited by: taraco at: 10/9/05 1:14 pm

Ted Newsom (10/9/05 1:19 pm)

monster in the window ------I didn't memorize the lousy dialogue or dumb songs in 2 HEARTS, but I think I'd remember if the monster said "We Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------41 belong dead." And I don't.

"Payson" is what I've always read. I avoided naming him because all I could think of was "Parker," and that would simply cause confusion.

There's at least one more wonderrful still, with the Monster atop a castle parapet, pouring boiling oil down onto the viewer (or Peter Smith, whatever) below, ala Quasimodo.

And Pete Smith has another of his immortal lines, "Oh, no, Mr. Frankenstein, don't pour that boiling oil." Jeezuss. How did they sit through this. It makes BOO! look funny.

Ted Newsom (10/9/05 1:31 pm)

Re: monster on the parakeet ------Come to think of it, I didn't see it on TV, I'd borrowed a 16mm print from someone and transferred it to use in 100 Years of Horror 10 years ago. Odd, but the 3D effect didn't work at all in the video transfer, there was no dimensional effect, but apparently when it was projected it was fine.

And it stinks. But it's Frankenstein.

davlghry (10/9/05 5:39 pm)

Re:Third Dimensional Murder ------

<< I gotta say again, it's fascinating that the Frankenstein monster, in the space of only a few films, became an immediate icon, even in the 30s and 40s.

I've always wondered how well known the Monster was BEFORE the first Universal Frankenstein film. There was the novel, of course, and the stage play, but was the character something familiar to most people or something "new" when FRANKENSTEIN was released?

Bill Warren (10/9/05 6:43 pm)

The fame of Frankenstein? ------Quote: ------I've always wondered how well known the Monster was BEFORE the first Universal Frankenstein film. There was the novel, of course, and the stage play, but was the character something familiar to most people or something "new" when FRANKENSTEIN was released? ------

I think the name "Frankenstein" was actually quite well known prior to 1932 among people who were reasoanbly Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------42 literate, and may have been at least known to a degree among those who weren't. I've seen references along the lines of "that was a real Frankenstein" or "he created his own Frankenstein monster" in material published before the Whale/Karloff movie--and of course there were at least three earlier movie versions. The phrase/term "Frankenstein Monster" was applied to something that backfired on its inventor, a "monster" that somehow turned on its creator. It was a relatively familiar phrase in that context, or so I gather--but that "turned on its creator" meaning gradually VANISHED or became more infrequent after the movies became popular, or at least well-known.

I suspect it's at least possible, maybe even probable, that Universal wouldn't have called the movie FRANKENSTEIN if that name hadn't been at least reasonably well known. But that's just a guess.

Edited by: Bill Warren at: 10/9/05 6:44 pm

Ted Newsom (10/9/05 7:17 pm)

Re: The fame of Frankenstein? ------But not a bad guess. One of those early silent versions was called LIFE WITHOUT SOUL. Or WIFE WITHOUT SOLE, which was another Ma Kettle of fish. Just as Percy Kilbrideoffrankenstein.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/9/05 7:19 pm

taraco (10/9/05 8:37 pm)

Re: The fame of Frankenstein? ------In THE MAD GENIUS, a 1931 film which came out before FRANKENSTEIN (that's an assumption, given FRANKENSTEIN came out in december), John Barrymore makes a reference to 'Frankenstein' or someone being 'a real Frankenstein' or something like that. Boris Karloff, not even credited, has a small part early on as well. david

Les Daniels (10/10/05 3:03 am)

Porky Pig & Olsen & Johnson ------How about animated cartoons? First to mind is Frank Tashlin's PORKY'S ROAD RACE (1937), in which the popular porker takes to the track, driving against caricatures of several movie stars. His chief rival is "Borax Karoff," a dead ringer for the Universal monster. Mel Blanc, who joined the Looney Tunes stable in 1936, may have voiced the monster, but as I recall the only sound he emitted was a sinister laugh. I know there are many other "Frankenstein" cartoons, but it's late.

Also, my book BATMAN: THE COMPLETE HISTORY contains a photo already mentioned: Glenn Strange in monster makeup, checking out a copy of BATMAN #23 (June-July 1944) with comedian Ole Olsen (whose partner Chic Johnson is not in the shot). Since HELLZAPOPPIN was released in 1942, this publicity photo from at least two years later doesn't prove that Strange played the monster in that film. In fact, back in 1942, Strange had never played the monster at all.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------43

Ted Newsom (10/10/05 7:48 am)

Re: Porky Pig & Olsen & Johnson ------I'd say the Frankie cartoons are for another thread (let's not forget the Mighty Mouse one where Frank & Drac are locked up in a prison).

The Strange/Ole (or Chic; who gives a damn) photos are clearly from the HOUSE OF DRACULA era, and GHOST CATCHERS is on the money. There's similar gag photos of CATCHERS co-star Leo Carillo and Jack Pierce, with a funky-wrinkle rubber mask Pierce created for Carillio.

Are we done with SON OF F? Do we move on to William Smith doubling the monster in GHOST?

taraco (10/11/05 1:15 am)

Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------OK. Before we continue into the later films (FMTWM and the HOUSE's), let's take one look back again at FRANKENSTEIN (1931).

We had all agreed that no stunt doubles were involved in the first film. But horror historian David Skal emailed us (on page 4 of this thread), that he believes there are three instances where a double stands in (or lies in!), for Boris Karloff in the 1931 film.

Specifically, Skal believes the famous shot of the dormant monster on the table, where his street shoes show, is a stand-in and not Karloff. Here's that shot (I've crudely circled the shoe):

Secondly, Skal believes a stand-in was used when the body was hoisted in the creation scene. He notes that the arms of the monster are 'hairier' than Karloff's.

It's exceedingly hard to see here -- the photos I'm using are from the shot-by-shot Film Classics Library book -- but I presume Skal has access to much clearer photos. Anyhow, here's the hoisting scene: Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------44

And finally, Skal says after Karloff is knocked out by the needle to his back, the same hairy-armed stand-in lies face down on the floor. Again, it's hard to see the arms in this shot but here it is:

There of course is no name for this stand-in, and I must say I'd like to hear more discussion about this. I can see why a double might be under the sheet for the takes and retakes during the lab scene, and even the stand-in being hoisted. But the action when he's knocked out seems pretty continuous and I'm not sure why there'd be a need for a double.

But Skal says the hairy arms are evidence. What think? david Edited by: taraco at: 10/11/05 1:18 am

Ted Newsom (10/11/05 1:25 am)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------I suspect Dave has a thing for hairy arms.

Why are street shoes an indication that it isn't Karloff? He has been known to act in films wearing street shoes all the way through, in at least three features and two short Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------45 subjects, MGM's Pete Smith Speciality, "Stars and their Shoes," and the Cinecolor travelogue one-reeler, "Old Brown Loafers in London," with Willie Best as his loyal valet.

I'd have to look at the Mickey Finned monster scene again. Why would Karloff need a double for laying down? Who does he think he is, Glenn Strange?

Substituting a stand-in (or lie-down) for Karloff on the table would also indicate by extension that the shot of the Monster's hand flickering to life is not Karloff. Does this make sense?

taraco (10/11/05 1:29 am)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------Well, looking through the filmbook, I think it's clear that the profile of his masked head at the first glimpse of the monster with Dr. Waldman -- with only the hair showing -- is Karloff, and yes, the pantomime of his hand coming to life appears to be Boris.

But when the body is pretty well covered up, and they were doing, no doubt, take after take after take with electrical machines and all, perhaps a double would make sense under the sheets there.

The shots of the body ascending does look bigger somehow than Boris.

I'm hoping David Skal can add some insights here. I'm not sure what to think, not being able to see the hairy arms in comparison in these photos. david Edited by: taraco at: 10/11/05 1:31 am

Ted Newsom (10/11/05 7:56 am)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------Didn't Karloff once complain about the sparks raining down on him in that scene? OK, per the way-above suggestion, maybe he's just making it all up, but that sounds out of character. There are no other angles on the table & monster with sparks dropping down, just this long shot; plus near the end of his life, Karloff commented about working in his old age "... and supplying employment for a fleet of doubles!" If he was open and funny about it then, why would he make up a memory about sparks in FRANKENSTEIN? False memory? Was Boris kidnaped by aliens and given the anal probe? Amnesiac victim of a devil cult? Target of child abuse at the age of 44? We're getting into deep waters here...

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/11/05 7:58 am

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------46

Wolfman Joe (10/11/05 8:01 am)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------It was bad enough when we had to look out for ear whorls and spine curves - now we gotta check for hirsuteness of the limbs as well?

The Batman of Gotham (10/11/05 10:23 am)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------Quote: ------I certainly didn't see Curly anywhere. Curly had debuted with Moe & Larry in 1930 or 31 in several (pretty painful) 2-color Tech' shorts with that most unfunny of primates, Ted Healy, with whom I am ashamed to share a name. The Stooges were under contract to Columbia for shorts (if not features) from about 1935 onward. Why, then, would Brother Jerome backslide into a bit part for another studio? I dunno, but it make-a no-sense to me. ------

My Error. I must have been confusing 'Two Hearts in Wax Time' with another short: 'Roast Beef and Movies' which I'm sure aired together when I videotaped the both of them ( probably about 1993 on AMC... or was it TNT? ). Curly appeared in 'Roast Beef' without the other Stooges.

- GJS

Edited by: The Batman of Gotham at: 10/11/05 12:30 pm

Joe Karlosi (10/11/05 12:59 pm)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------I don't know about the monster rising to the roof on the table, but the monster lying on the table when he's stationary seems to be Karloff. I'd recognize that hand anywhere. ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

taraco (10/11/05 1:04 pm)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------That's what I think, too, Joe, although upon real close inspection the arm IS hairier than the closeup of Karloff's arm when Van Sloan holds it and Colin Clive goes 'eh? eh?' , or in the 'It's alive!' moment or in the reach for the skylight moment. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------47

Still, I'm not totally convinced and really would love to see much better photos. Perhaps some of our Universal glossy collectors here can take a look and see if there's hairy arms on the monster in some of these same shots! david

TomWeaver999 (10/11/05 3:29 pm)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------To take this a step deeper into Get-a-Life Territory (I know the place like the back of my hand): I wonder if Karloff might not have gone home (or whatever) before the still photographer started taking loads of shots of Clive and Frye standing near the lab table-and-body. Maybe the body on the table in the movie is a different guy than the body on the table in the stills.

"You need me to lie under that sheet for ANOTHER hour while pictures are taken? Look, can't somebody ELSE do that? This is my bowling night. I'm a Hurry-cane!"

Joe Karlosi (10/11/05 4:16 pm)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------Only trouble with that theory, Tom, is I'd bet that at this stage of his career Boris would have said: "what's that? you want me to lie there another hour? Would you like me to do it for three hours? Maybe four? I've got nothing but time,man! I don't mind, I tell you...!" Now, by the time he got to HOUSE OF FRANKENSTEIN, I'm sure it was a different story! ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Ted Newsom (10/11/05 5:26 pm)

Re: Back to James Whale ------"No, no, dear, darling truck driver, we shouldn't THINK of inconveniencing you, not for a moment. Just slide your PRATT right down off of that most uncomfortable table, dear boy, and trot along to your little half-Hindu friends, there's a good fellow. I'm sure you're quite happier among your own kind. What is it tonight, rice and curry, or curry and rice? Please, leave with my blessings."

"And if you would be a dear before you go, just let us unwrap those fifty feet of bandages and scrape off all that all that beastly putty and nonsense, and let us apply it to this big brute over here with the hairy arms. No, no, it's no bother at all. Why, I say, this big brute actually WOULD make a rather interesting 'Monster,' wouldn't you say? Quite a bit bigger than you, no offence, of course, and quite the cooperative soul. Just let me ask him if HE aspires to be a working actor, too."

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/11/05 5:31 pm Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------48

Hu Phan (10/11/05 5:35 pm)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------Just a few thoughts on Frakenstein (1931) and the issue of doubles.

At the time this film was made, Karloff had come off a moderate stage and screen success in The Criminal Code. He was getting a lot more work than in his hungrier Hollywood days in the twenties and his "can of soup a week" times as a rep player roaming across Canada a decade earlier.

This was before his Screen Actor's Guild work and before he had much of a name. He must have known this film would be a big chance for him, given the reputation of the novel and the earlier success that same year of Dracula.

I think he would have put his all in in terms of time and effort to make the film and his role work. Lying on a table or on the studio floor for a while would not be that big a deal.

Given his anecdote about sparks falling on him and fear of getting burnt (which sounds like a genuine memory and the sort of thing that would remain strong in someone's mind even thirty years later), I feel confident that it is Boris at least some of the time during the creation sequence, so why not all? They were clearly not that concerned for his safety, leaving him with bare legs and letting sparks from the fake lightning equipment to fall on him, so why not hoist him to the ceiling as well?

Also, it is clearly Karloff in all the dangerous shots in the windmill at the end with fire up close, collapsing beams etc. They had no concern about him doing that or carrying Clive around (and stuffing his back in the process.)

But:-

MONSTER GETS INJECTED AND PASSES OUT

After the injection in the back and the wrestling with Clive and his torch (in which Karloff's quite hairy arms can be seen) he collapses into frame landing on his back. It is Karloff visibly doing the fall and after landing his face can be seen in the bottom left hand corner of the frame. Clearly Karloff at this point.

Here the continuity goes to hell. The very next shot of the monster has him lying face down on the floor, arms outstretched (this is the hairy arm shot shown above.)

There follows two shots where the monster is picked up by Waldeman and Frankenstein and carried back into the cell. In both shots the monster's face is continually obscured and the actors appear well choreographed in moving in such a way as to keep the face hidden - the dark lighting also helps.

I think for that reason (and not hairy or hairless arms) it is more likely to be a double in that scene or....

It could be Boris in these shots, in costume but without the make-up. We don't really see the head at all, so there is no indication that the full make-up is on. Perhaps James Whale or the producers knew that on that one shooting day they only needed two shots with Karloff and there was no need to get him into full make-up for it? They put his costume on, shot the scenes in the way they did and sent him home, sparing the cost and time of a long make-up session.

I don't know, but it is fun to speculate. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------49

Hu Phan (10/11/05 5:41 pm)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931 ) ------..and what Ted said as well. Boris needed the job and whilst Whale thought he had the right look for the part, I am sure that at a pinch they could have found someone else to play it.

Perhaps that big guy who was in all those Mascot westerns and serials at the time riding horses and the like. Whale could have seen and liked him as well and he had the name for it - Glenn Strange.

Bill Warren (10/11/05 6:16 pm)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------Not taking a side on the is-it-Karloff question, but it's standard for still photographers to shoot either just before or just after a take--that is, of shots taken on the dressed set with actors in costume, etc.

Ted Newsom (10/12/05 4:43 am)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------Regarding Hu Pan's trestise:

A nice, simple answer MIGHT be... Karloff did the fall. FLOP. Hit the floor. It's nearly the end of the day, probably early evening. Let's all go home. No, no, we've got to finish this scene. Awww, shhht, look at Karloff's head! It's all squished! Hitting the floor must've banged it off. Get Pierce over here. No, no, wait, just cheat it, okay? Boris, keep your head shielded. Guys, when you pick him up, help keep him cheated away from camera. Right, come on, one more shot and we're done, let's go. Boris, lay down and kind of cover your mooshed head with your arm. (But I fell on my back.) Hey, you wanna make this another all-nighter? Won't work, we'll see the smashed putty and rubber. Come on, just cover your face, keep your head down and let's get on with it. OK, roll 'em!

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/12/05 4:47 am

taraco (10/12/05 12:20 pm)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------I think the monster lying on his face is not Karloff...the more I look at it.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------50

Count Gamula (10/12/05 1:48 pm)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------I love these little excuses to look at these scenes more closely for little details. Looking at the scene in question, I don't see any real reason to think it's not Karloff. It is odd that he goes from face up to face down. Maybe the scene of them dragging the monster was filmed first and Karloff forgot to land face down or didn't know he was in camera range. Maybe they filmed one where the monster lands face down and the editor chose the wrong take. Who knows? The make-up being damaged is a good theory. You do see the monster's face for a frame or two in the next shot as they are dragging him down the stairs and it appears to be Karloff to me. I never noticed any extra hairy arms. If it looks that way in a still, it could have been the lighting that made the hair show more. It just seems very unlikely that they would put a stand-in in full costume and make-up for that simple shot.

And yes, Karloff did talk in interviews about the creation scene and men holding hot arc lights or something above him to make those bright flashes of electicity. He said he hope they didn't have butterfingers. Kerry Gammill Edited by: Count Gamula at: 10/12/05 1:51 pm

Count Gamula (10/12/05 2:27 pm)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------Out of curiousity, I looked at that scene in the Richard Anobile book with frame blow-ups from FRANKENSTEIN. Odd to think this is as close as most of us could come to owning the movie back then. It does show one interesting thing. The frame blow-ups show how overscanned the frame is on the DVD and how much more picture there is at the top, bottom and sides of the frame than we see on our TVs. On my set you don't even see all of the Monster on the floor at the beginning of that scene. His face and hands are off the bottom of the screen. But in the Anobile book, he is clearly seen well above the bottom of the frame. Kerry Gammill

n0s4a2 (10/13/05 3:35 am)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------Quote: ------But Skal says the hairy arms are evidence. What think? ------

No, that's Karloff lying face down after being drugged; I recognise his characteristic hands. He had a way of holding his fingers in a sort of splayed gesture that a stand in isn't likely to have been able to imitate. This subtle aspect of body language is unquestionably Karloff's.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------51

Dr Gangrene (10/13/05 9:48 am) Reply

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931) ------Guys, I love this thread. GREAT stuff! So by my count, this is where we're at :

Who played the Monster ... Universals:

-- FRANKENSTEIN (1931) Bela Lugosi (lost screen test) Boris Karloff

-- BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN (1935) Boris Karloff George DeNormand (stuntman): Brief scenes may have included 'rescue' of shepherd girl; monster lifted on pole in long shot during 'crucifixion'; carrying Elizabeth in abduction (long shot); possibly castle explosion).

-- SON OF FRANKENSTEIN (1939) Boris Karloff Bud Wolfe (stuntman): Stand-in for fall into sulphur pit.

-- HELLZAPOPPIN' (1941) Dale Van Sickel

-- GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1942) Lon Chaney Jr Eddie Parker

-- FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLFMAN (1943) Bela Lugosi

Who played the Monster ... Non - Universals:

-- TWO HEARTS IN WAX TIME (1935) Frank Hayes

ONE IN A MILLION (1936): Al Ritz

THIRD DIMENSIONAL MURDER (1941), Ed Payson Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------52

Dr Gangrene (10/13/05 9:49 am)

Re: Back to FRANKENSTEIN (1931 ) ------are we eventually going to add in tv appearances such as the Route 66 and Tales of Tomorrow appearances, or stick just to film?

taraco (10/13/05 10:02 am)

Who played the Monster (FRANKENSTEIN MEETS WOLF MAN) ------Thanx for the roundup, Doc (although the question of Eddie Parker will grow as we continue).

Yes, after we get through the classic films we can move on to the TV and other odd appearances.

FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN is next, and that should be very interesting.

Before we move on, here's an email we received from IT'S ALIVE author Greg Mank, commenting on what we've discussed so far. I think it sets up the rest of this discussion rather nicely:

From Greg Mank:

It really seems the only way to confirm definitively who doubled the Monster and where and when is to look at the production call sheets. Unfortunately, usually these don't exist any more (although I have them for House of Frankenstein and can tell you, before that film's discussed, that Glenn Strange definitely had NO double in that film, other than the dummy you see in one shot on the operating table). Or perhaps the production papers are waiting to be found. Sadly, there's not a single piece of production paper (that I've seen) re: Frankenstein Meets the Wolf Man, which would solve all variety of mysteries!

I spoke with Gil Perkins long ago and he told me about doubling the Monster in F Meets W - but he only mentioned the fight scene (which he remembered mainly because he got to carry Iona Massey!). He said nothing about the ice cavern, and I can kick myself now for not having asked him directly if he remembered doing it (I presumed at that time that it was definitely Eddie Parker in the ice).

As to what's on the board, I agree Karloff had no double in Frankenstein, but wonder about DeNormand's Bride of.. claim. According to Academy records, DeNormand doubled Reginald Barlow (Little Maria's father) in his fall into the windmill. That doesn't mean he didn't also double the Monster, but if he did, the Academy records don't note it. I don't believe that's anyone but Karloff on the pole in the forest. In his interview, DeNormand says he was down in a pit (that might be the windmill scene) and that as the Monster, he tossed stuff around, or words to that effect. There's really no such scene in Bride..., and I really wonder how much truth there is in DeNormand's claims (although I wouldn't openly accuse him of fibbing). Personally, I think it's Karloff 100% of the time.

The Son of F story makes sense - surely Boris didn't take that fall into the sulfur pit!

Seems I grew up reading that Eddie Parker doubled the Monster in The Ghost and F Meets W., and sad to realize that might have been false. But in all truth, I have no proof he was a double in either film; I'd always taken Don Glut's (and others') word for it. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------53

Strange was 100% the Monster in House of F and probably all the way through in House of D. (except for flashbacks). I have call sheets for A & C Meet F, and Strange was briefly doubled in that (by Chaney after Glenn broke his ankle, and I think by Walt De Palma in one scene in the fire at the end; also by a mechanical monster in the flames). I'll double check and let you know.

My hope is one day, a crate of production papers turns up and answers all these questions. Stranger things have happened! Very best,

Greg

------

OK, with that as a backdrop, and Tom Weaver's interviews with Perkins as well, can anyone come up with a list of where Lugosi is doubled, where it might be Perkins, where it might be Parker, whether someone else entirely was involved in the climactic fight?

Let's start with the face in the ice. Lugosi? Parker? Perkins? blackbiped (10/13/05 12:18 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (FRANKENSTEIN MEETS WOLF MAN) ------Quote: ------Let's start with the face in the ice. Lugosi? Parker? Perkins? ------

Well, it ain't Bela!

Hope that helps. Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

Ted Newsom (10/13/05 2:08 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (FRANKENSTEIN MEETS WOLF MAN) ------Can we start tabla rasa with Edwin Parker? There's no factual indication that he was employed on GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN, or really, any 1940s Universal monster movie other than FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN. The only first-hand information (via Gil Perkins) is that Parker doubled Lon Chaney during the climatic fight scene.

Certainly some stuntman doubled Chaney in a few shots of GHOST: the fire at the end; the long shot of the Monster and the dummy Cloestein atop the bridge. But no one has ever shown even any ear-whorl /S-shaped spine indication that this was Parker.

All this stuff about Parker playing the Mummy in the Chaney Kharis trilogy is sheerest speculation, probably stemming with backward-logic from his billed role in ABBOTT & COSTELLO MEET THE MUMMY. Again, Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------54 there clearly was a stuntman for Chaney at times; we have the first-hand recollections of Virginia Christine saying Chaney was inebriated one day on THE MUMMY'S CURSE and was replaced in the scene where Kharis carts the girl up a staircase; the masonry-collapse at the end may be another scene. Yet Tom Weaver's interview with Reginald LeBorg does not mention a stuntman on THE MUMMY'S GHOST, or at least the subject doesn't come up. Chaney himself did the dangerous gag of smashing through the glass museum door. The fire gags in THE MUMMY'S TOMB are another instance of a sequence in which the studio wouldn't risk a contract player.

Yet the physical difference between the shape and build of the actor in A & C MEET THE MUMMY and the body shape of the actor in the wrappings in the earlier pictures appears WAY different. (Yeah, we're getting into professional stuntman Bart Andrews territory here, but still...)

The later Mummy KNOWN to be Parker is tall and slim; most of the presumably-doubled shots in the 1942-45 films show a "mummy" generally as husky as Chaney. That, and the style of playing are entirely different. The early 'stuntman' emulates Chaney; Parker's portrayal of "Klaris," even given that this is a comedy, is so totally unlike the earlier Kharis that one wonders whether Parker ever even SAW a mummy movie.

The close-up of the Monster in the ice in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLFMAN is clearly the same guy who is carrying Ilona Massey in the climax. Unless these two sequences were filmed in the same week, or some guy at Universal happened by lucky coincidence to pick Gil Perkins' name out of a stuntman hat twice, then there is no other simpler explanation than Gil Perkins consistently doubled Bela Lugosi in the film. Anything else gets us into MERRY MIX-UP territory, which was certainly one of the worst Three Stooges shorts ever, not counting anything in which Joe De Rita appeared.

Actually, since Joe dePalma was Chaney's double, at least on HOUSE OF DRACULA (there's a shot of the two of them together, Chaney in Wolf Man make-up, de Palma bare-faced with matching costume), why isn't HE the likely Chaney double on stuff? And, in that weird way the world works, dePalma is (as I recall), the "fake Shemp" of the latter Stooges 2-reelers.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/13/05 2:13 pm

Michael Brunas (10/13/05 6:21 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (FRANKENSTEIN MEETS WOLF MAN) ------I would be surprised to learn that Chaney didn't have a double in certain scenes in THE MUMMY'S GHOST. He certainly needed one when he's carrying the figure of the Princess down that awfully steep wooden ladder. Also, I suspect that Robert Lowery wasn't tussling with Chaney in that scene on the mining tracks. The Mummy's built seems much leaner than Chaney's.

Count Gamula (10/13/05 7:55 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (FRANKENSTEIN MEETS WOLF MAN) ------Quote: ------Let's start with the face in the ice. Lugosi? Parker? Perkins? ------Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------55

I'd say it's Perkins. Parker had a larger nose and a weaker chin. Kerry Gammill

davlghry (10/13/05 8:48 pm)

Re:Back to FRANKENSTEIN ------

<< Who played the Monster ... Non - Universals:

-- TWO HEARTS IN WAX TIME (1935) Frank Hayes >>

This one hasn't been proven. Just conjecture at this point.

nightmarekey (10/13/05 10:19 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (FRANKENSTEIN MEETS WOLF MAN) ------Quote: ------Strange was 100% the Monster in House of F ------

Haven't got there yet, but there's a visual rebuttal of that statement in the film itself......

Ted Newsom (10/13/05 10:40 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (FRANKENSTEIN MEETS WOLF MAN) ------Only if you count the dummy. Or have I been napping?

nightmarekey (10/14/05 12:08 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (FRANKENSTEIN MEETS WOLF MAN) ------Quote: ------Only if you count the dummy. Or have I been napping? ------

If it's what I'm referring to, then the question is: was it a dummy? Would the Unions have allowed it in 1944? Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------56

(remember, it was dolly-to-closeup)...[left meself wide-open there, I daresay... I fully expect Mr. Newsom to post the entire first chorus of "Dance With A Dolly"... no doubt he has the original 78]....

Edited by: nightmarekey at: 10/14/05 12:25 am

Ted Newsom (10/14/05 1:53 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (Bill Haley & the Comets) ------

EDITED

I'd vote for it being a dummy for the other reasons inherent in the shot: that's REAL electricity zapping onto that Monster. That's probably enough to make even the most falling-down-drunk stuntman say, "No way, pardner."

I don't know whose idea it was, because really, that electro-bizness is pretty tame compared to the pyrotechnics in other films that are obviously Hollywoodified. But the dummy is undoubtdly the same one who played the Perkins-Lugosi part in "The Iceman Cometh" earlier in HOUSE OF FRANKENSTEIN. Even through the ice it appears to have a similar squished face-- not to mention S-shaped ear whorls.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/14/05 1:56 am blackbiped (10/14/05 2:22 am)

Re: Who played with the Monster (Ilona Massey) ------Look at the hands. They sure look like dummy hands to me. Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

Ted Newsom (10/14/05 2:41 am)

Re: Who played with the Monster (Your guess is...) ------Well, from this UK re-release poster, I guess we've all been wrong all this time. It was Glenn Strange who played the Monster... and Eddie Parker as the Wolf Man. Or was it Boris Karloff?

PHOTO NO LONGER AVAILABLE Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------57 taraco (10/14/05 1:23 pm)

Re: Who played with the Monster (Your guess is...) ------OK, let's hold onto your hats because we're going to move on to FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN, Eddie Parker, Gil Perkins and one of the biggest mysteries in horror, i.e., who really did double for Lugosi.

But first...

Here's that photo Les Daniels mentioned in his book, BATMAN: The Complete History.

Ole Johnson and Glenn Strange are reading BATMAN #23, which came out in the spring of 1944, so he is likely in makeup for HOUSE OF FRANKENSTEIN.

Another great rarity... david Edited by: taraco at: 10/14/05 1:25 pm

taraco (10/14/05 1:48 pm)

Who doubled in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN ------We've now covered the first four films (through GHOST), and several short subjects and Frankenstein oddities.

Now we get to the heart of the debate:

So far, the stunt people we've been exploring have been used as longshot doubles at best -- maybe some double was used in FRANKENSTEIN; George DeNormand briefly in BRIDE; Bud Wolfe for the sulphur pit in SON; and Eddie Parker during the fire scene in GHOST.

Every one of the above doubles is in some question. No production records exist, as has been noted by the experts above.

And FMTWM adds another name to the mix: Gil Perkins, challenging the long-held belief that Eddie Parker was the only double in the 1943 film. Now remember that just because something is challenged, does not mean that it is not so. I have always thought the preponderence of the evidence points to Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------58

Parker in the monster makeup in GHOST and MEETS -- how could such a legend stand unchallenged for so long?

But there are doubts, there are doubts.

Let's start with what we do know.

Bela Lugosi, proud, imperious, disdainful of the Monster role -- or so he said -- agreed to take on the role, perhaps lured by the thought the Monster had dialogue this time. Or perhaps there was another motivation.

Here's what Curt Siodmak said in the MagicImage Filmbook, as quoted by Greg Mank:

'Lugosi was glad to get a job again,' Siodmak says. 'He was really hard-up. He was already under financial pressure in those days , and there were really few jobs about for him. Karloff did much more.'

And here's what Mank says Lillian Lugosi (not the cantankerous Hope, but Lillian, who died in 1981), said:

'Isn't it crazy?' Lillian is quoted as saying. 'After turning down the original, Bela winds up doing it anyhow -- THE MONSTER MEETS THE WOLF MAN, or something? He finally did it because of MONEY! He didn't do it any other way.'

For whatever reason, Bela began shooting, submitting to the makeup and turning 60 in October of 1942.

And he looks happy to be back in the monster mix, witness this shot during the filming of FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN. That's Bela Jr. with him:

We know now that six scenes with Lugosi speaking monster dialogue were cut. Test audiences supposedly howled with laughter; studio executives were aghast; surely this was a death knell moment for Lugosi at Universal. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------59

Here's one of those missing scenes, again copied from the wonderful Magicimage Filmbook:

Among the missing dialogue is this, from Bela as the Monster: 'If Dr. Frankenstein were still alive, he would restore my sight, restore my strength so I could live forever.'

As we all hear in our heads Bela saying, 'liff for-eh-verr,' we recognize why this dialogue was mercifully sliced away (although wouldn't we all give anything just to have those scenes back!!).

Anyhow, FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN was redemption but also, ultimately, another disappointment for Bela. And whether we like his performance or not, when Lugosi does appear he seems to give it his all, mute and supposedly blind (from the last movie), Bela may not be imposing but he dominates the screen every time.

So let's discuss the stunts and the doubles. Let's look next at the men who may have been the Monster as well. david 'Frank! You're making him strong again!' Edited by: taraco at: 10/14/05 2:22 pm

The Batman of Gotham (10/14/05 2:47 pm)

Re: Who doubled in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN ------As an aside, I always found it somewhat dubious that the Universal Execs were so surprised to learn that the Frankenstein Monster speaking in Ygor's voice would come off as comical to audiences. Where were these execs at the release of Ghost of Frankenstein where the same thing happens - laughably - at the climax of that film? You can't convince me that they didn't recognize this fact before all of that dialogue footage was shot with Lugosi! Then, they had the audacity to fix the blame on Bela - in effect 'black balling' him from future studio productions. If you ask me, Bela was railroaded by people who wanted him out of their way - the six scenes of wasted dialogue footage was a frame-up.

- GJS

Edited by: The Batman of Gotham at: 10/14/05 2:49 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------60 taraco (10/14/05 2:56 pm)

Re: Who doubled in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN ------For decades it has been written, repeated, listed and taken as monster gospel that Eddie Parker was the double for Bela Lugosi in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN.

But then Tom Weaver interviewed another stunt man, Gil Perkins , who remembered things differently.

Here's how history began to be revised, as written in UNIVERSAL HORRORS, the monster history by Weaver and Michael and John Brunas in the early 1990s:

'Stuntman Eddie Parker is easily recognizable under Monster makeup doubling for Lugosi throughout the film,'' the authors conclude, 'although in the finale, Parker doubles for Chaney as the Wolf Man while Aussie stuntman Gil Perkins takes over for Lugosi.'

But even that is now open to question. Was it Perkins, and not Parker, who played the mute monster through most of the film, even before the fight?

Before we begin that debate, here's photos of the stuntmen involved.

First, two photos of Eddie Parker I found online:

And here's a photo of Gil Perkins, obviously taken later in life. This was quite hard to find:

What strikes me is how little has been written about both men. Perkins was one of the sailors in KING KONG -- if anyone knows which one, let us know! -- and is a member of the Hollywood Stunt Player Hall of Fame.

Parker, too, is a key figure in the history of serials, westerns, horror movies and science fiction films, but he remains at most a listing in filmographies. Even the stunt players pages have very little on the man.

Parker's credits are in such doubt, that most listings have to be taken with a grain of Vasarian salt.

But we did find this pretty savvy webpage, recently updated by George 'E-gor' Chastain, Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------61 that might be close to accurate:

Chastain calls Parker an Actor / stuntman / star's double in many action films (aka Eddy Parker, Edward Parker, Edwin Parker, Ed Parker) December 12, 1900 - June 20, 1960. Born in Minnesota, USA.

And he lists these Parker genre films:

Acting and Performing Stunts In Horror and Science Fiction Films

-- In an uncredited bit in Son of Frankenstein (1939). -- As the ambulance driver in Fingers at the Window (1942). -- As a strongarm thug in Invisible Agent (1942). -- As a stunt man in The Ghost of Frankenstein (1942). -- As a stunt man (allegedly taking turns with Gil Perkins, doubling both monsters) in Frankenstein Meets the Wolf Man (1943). -- As a cop in the park in The Phantom Speaks (1945). -- As a stunt double for Frankenstein's Monster in House of Dracula (1945). -- As a stunt man in Bud Abbott Lou Costello Meet Frankenstein (1948). -- As "Mr. Hyde," monster and stunt double for Boris Karloff, in Abbott and Costello Meet Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (1953). -- As the stunt double for actor Robert J. Wilke in the Disney fantasy-adventure 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (1954). -- As a "Mutant" in This Island Earth (1955). (Regis Parton is known to have played this creature, though Parker is also credited in some sources, including the Internet Movie Database.) -- As "Klaris, the mummy" in Abbott and Costello Meet the Mummy (1955). -- As "Paul Lund" and "Eric Jacobs" as monsters in Tarantula (1955). -- As the stunt double for Bela Lugosi in Bride of the Monster, aka Bride of the Atom (1955). -- As a Mole Man in The Mole People (1956). -- As a studio guard in the biography of actor Lon Chaney, Man of a Thousand Faces (1957), starring James Cagney. -- As "Professor Donald Blake" as a monster in Monster on the Campus (1958), starring Arthur Franz. -- As a minor heavy (Buffer's henchman) in the monster western Curse of the Undead (1959).

That's Chastain's list, and it's interesting, too, for what isn't listed. You can find George's...er, Ygor's website at myweb.wvnet.edu/~u0e53/booswho.html Anyhow, so it's not hard to believe that Parker was viewed as the Monster in disguise. A stuntman or double in hundreds of films, why would it not make sense he doubled Lugosi as well?

But then we get to Perkins.

Here's an obit when he died at the age of 91:

Stunt legend Gil Perkins dead at 91

HOLLYWOOD (CNN) -- You probably saw him in the movies and didn't even know it. Legendary stuntman Gil Perkins left behind a legacy in more than 200 features films, before passing away of natural causes at a hospital in Woodland Hills on March 28. He was 91. Perkins, who was born in Australia in 1907, began his five-decade career in 1929 when he doubled Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------62 for Rod La Rocque in "Delightful Rogue." He subsequently performed stunts for many Hollywood stars, including Clark Gable, Spencer Tracy, Randolph Scott, Van Johnson, Red Skelton, Kirk Douglas, Danny Kaye and Gene Hackman. Perkins also served as a stunt coordinator on dozens of films, beginning with "Whistling in the Dark" (1941). A sampling of films in which Perkins played bits included: "King Kong" (1933), "Captains Courageous" (1937), "The Adventures of Robin Hood" (1938), "Mrs. Miniver" (1942), "Father of the Bride" (1950) and "Bonnie and Clyde" (1967). He also performed stunts in dozens of features, including "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" (1941) and "Walking Tall" (1973).

No mention of the Monster.

So how did things begin to change...? david Edited by: taraco at: 10/16/05 3:27 pm

taraco (10/14/05 3:02 pm)

Re: Who doubled in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN ------Doubts about Parker's role were explained this way on another thread here at CHFB. Excerpts.

From Ted Newsom:

The "inside information" identifying every monster back to Edison's Frankenstein as Eddie Parker came from "professional stuntman Bart Andrews," who was neither professional nor a stuntman. He was a moke from the east coast who relocated out here to, I guess, become a movie actor. He was a contemporary of Don [Glut], in his 20s, obsessed with Republic serials and to a lesser extent cowboy movies, and believed (based on his scientific immersion in rickety B-pix) that he could identify a stuntman just from the way he walked. Like Parker.

Nor did Parker double Lugosi in F MEETS W has been erroneously repeated for 40 years. That was Gil Perkins, from the big ice close-up through the final fight. Parker played the Wolf Man in some of the fight scenes.

And from Tom Weaver:

Make it about 17 or 18 years since I first talked to Perkins and he told me about FRANK MEETS WOLF MAN, and I wrote about it briefly in FILMFAX. Then I interviewed him twice for STARLOG in the 1990s, once strictly about KING KONG (he played a sailor and stunt-doubled Bruce Cabot) and the other time about his other genre credits (FRANK MEETS WOLF MAN, the '41 JEKYLL & HYDE, serials, TEENAGE MONSTER, etc.). I'm afraid Don Glut then started writing letters to genre mags saying Perkins was full of bleep and that he was duping interviewers into believing he'd been a Frankenstein Monster. Now it's 2005 and Glut's now jumped on the Perkins bandwagon, and I think is even saying that Perkins is playing the Monster in scenes where I think he ISN'T. ... And his recent CHFB attempt to distance himself from all the Eddie Parker misinformation (that his articles/books started) by blaming it on a "stuntman" friend who actually was NOT a stuntman, but just some crooked kid-friend of his ... In a word, yeeeesh.

In our current UNIVERSAL HORRORS update, the Bruni and I are deleting Eddie Parker from every castlist where we haven't seen original (1930s or '40s) paperwork to back it up. A small start on trying to rectify the mess. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------63

------

So there we have the debate. Let's go on to the film itself. david Edited by: taraco at: 10/14/05 4:29 pm

The Batman of Gotham (10/14/05 3:07 pm)

Re: Who doubled in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN ------Eddie Parker's facial characteristics ( especially from that first photo ) seem consistent with the Monster in the ice scene from FMTWM. Ditto the face of the Monster carrying Ilona Massey.

Too bad we can't get some better shots of Gil Perkins out of make-up for comparison....

I'm inclined, at this point, to keep believing the Edwin Parker story. At least for now.

- GJS

taraco (10/14/05 3:23 pm)

Re: Who doubled in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN ------It seems there are FOUR key moments where Lugosi is missing and a double -- Parker or Perkins -- are there instead.

1) It is widely acknowledged, and obvious, that it is not Lugosi in the opening ice scene:

And here's a much better shot, quite wonderful actually:

There's also a famous close-up of the Monster in the ice, which I've been unable to find in useable quality. The best I could come up with was this, but if anyone can post a better one, please do: Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------64

Greg Mank wrote in the Filmbook that it was Parker in the ice -- although he has said earlier in this thread that everyone back then said it was Parker.

Wrote Mank: 'Parker, with his great neck muscles, looked much more impressive in the Monster makeup than did Lugosi -- so much so that [director Roy William] Neill used Parker in the opening shot of the ice-bound Monster, bolstering the audience's first impression of the creature! (This was fine with Bela, who hardly cherished the thought of cramming his aching body behind the wall of ice).'

Mank's analysis holds true even if it was Perkins in the ice. But there's no doubt that an entire generation of horror scholars has cited Eddie Parker as the man until both Weaver and Mank interviewed Gil Perkins, and doubts began to rise. Anyhow, onward ...

2) The kicking the barrels off the wagon scene.

I could not find a photo of this, but it seems a stuntman would be the one kicking the barrels into the center of Vasaria. (Again, if anyone has, please post).

3) Carrying Ilona Massey. That's the famous shot. Here's another look: Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------65

4) And finally, the fight. Is it Gil Perkins as the Monster, Eddie Parker as the Wolf Man? What think:

Or here... Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------66

Or THIS amazing close-up!

So there's the evidence as I was able to reconstruct it. Whew! I'm exhausted, but finding the actual photos of Eddie Parker and Gil Perkins may help bring some of this into the light.

So what do we all think? And if anyone has any other photos or documents, please post them! david 'I want you to give me the record of Dr. Frankenstein's experiments with life and death.' Edited by: taraco at: 10/14/05 4:38 pm

taraco (10/14/05 3:51 pm)

This from TED NEWSOM ------Ted Newsom posts this (I reposted Ted's post here to keep the discussion in continuity):

>>Wrote taraco: I still think the preponderence of the evidence points to Parker in the monster makeup in GHOST and MEETS -- how could such a legend stand unchallenged for so long?

Writes Ted:

Easy. The same way everybody knows Bogart said "Play it again, Sam." The same way everybody knows Ronald Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------67

Reagan was originally cast in that role. The same way we know that BONANZA was shot on location at a ranch in northern Nevada. The same way we know Lugosi died with the script for THE FINAL CURTAIN in his hand and requested to be buried in his Dracula cape. The same way we know Theda Bara was the bastard offspring of a New York socialite and an handsome shiek. The same way we know Russ Columbo was murdered because those nasty non-Italians were jealous of his fame. The same way we know Jane Russell's breasts look big in THE OUTLAW because she wore a bra designed by Howard Hughes. The same way we know John Carradine was up for the role of Dracula in 1931. The same way we know George Reeves was shot by an anonymous hitman at the bequest of a jealous thug. The same way we know that a teenage couple was nearly murdered by The Hook when they got home from necking and found the Hook itself hanging from the latch of the car door.

Urban myth.

As has been pointed out on other boards, the Parker myth began with a fan-written article in MODERN MONSTERS circa 1966-67. The author was movie fan (later writer and film maker) Don Glut, writing under the name Don Grant. His "authority" in the article was "professional stuntman Bart Andrews." That veneer of authority carried with it the air of versimilitude. Surely a contemporary of Ed Parker would know all about what ol' Eddie did.

The film FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN and several of the stills seemed to verify the story. Clearly someone else doubled the 60 year old Lugosi. With no other likely candidates, it must be Eddie Parker.

Except it wasn't. And even Don Glut admits that now, although he equivocates and wants to argue that for some reason the director, producer and crew played switch and swap with 2, 3 or maybe even 4 different stuntment in the climax.

Don's source, "professional stuntman Bart Andrews" was nothing of the kind. He was a young New York movie hustler with (on the one hand) a seemingly encyclopedic knowledge of movies, particularly westerns and serials, and (on the other hand) an unreliable bllshht artist who conned and robbed people out of posters, stills, etc. And Andrews was not a stuntman at all. Roughly Don's age at the time of the article-- his early 20's-- the only "stunt man" work he did was in a couple of Don's own 16mm home/student movies. He was not a contemporary of Parker, Van Sickle, Canutt, et al. He was a fan boy. A conniving, lying, theiving fan boy, at that.

Andrews' identification of Parker was based on his "knowledge" of stunt men from watching cowboy movies. He asserted, for instance, that one can recognize the difference between Lon Chaney and his so-called double Eddie Parker in the Mummy movies by Chaney's unique S-shaped spine-- total, spurious nonsense.

The misinformation in Don Glut's article was repeated ad infinitum in the years since it first appeared.

According to real stunt man Gil Perkins-- interviewed by legitimate film scholars like Tom Weaver and Greg Mank-- it was Perkins who doubled Lugosi. In interviews, Perkins was offhand, not bragging; it's not like he had any reason to make it up. Perkins stated that Ed Parker WAS on the film, but doubling Chaney as the Wolf Man in the final battle scene.

Parker was billed as the Mummy in ABBOTT & COSTELLO MEET THE MUMMY. He worked uncredited on several other 50s Universal sci-fi films, possibly TARANTULA, THE MOLE PEOPLE and ABBOTT & COSTELLO MEET DR. JEKYLL & MR. HYDE (although again, this information is from the Modern Monsters/Don Glut article and mostly unverified from studio records.

-- Ted Newsom Edited by: taraco at: 10/14/05 3:59 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------68 taraco (10/14/05 4:08 pm)

The Unholy Three ------

Ted Newsom (10/14/05 4:30 pm)

Ice ------If you look carefully, the still photo of Chaney and the frozen Monster IS Lugosi. That shot accurately represents the similar angle in the film. It is only when they cut to the closer shot that the double has taken over. The Monster's head is in an upright position in the wide shot & still, reclining in the movie close-up. (The icicle stalagtites have also been repositioned between shots. If the wide and close shots had been filmed sequentially, there would be no need for that.

Lugosi was briefly hospitalized for exhaustion during filming; I believe it was this scene that caused it. A 60 year old man with chronic sciatica sitting in the same position on ice for several hours might, just might, be a teensy bit uncomfortable.

Regarding the Perkins obit: OK, then let's find a 1960 obit on Parker to see if IT mentions what ww're looking for. The on-line list above is rife with the same MODERN MONSTERS errors.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/14/05 4:33 pm

taraco (10/14/05 4:45 pm)

Re: Ice ------I used Chastain's list because it at least acknowledged some of the questions that have arisen. (And interestingly, he did not list Kharis at all).

Oh, and I didn't say 'no mention of the Monster' in the obit as if it was some kind of anti-Perkins proof. I mentioned it Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------69 out of frustration! (I coulda been clearer).

I still find it hard to believe that an article in a totally obscure kids' monster magazine -- MODERN MONSTERS, and I'm old enough to have bought that issue off the stands!! -- could have mutated into the 'Eddie Parker everywhere' situation we have now.

That he died in 1960 makes things even harder. Family might help, if survivors recall him talking about it, half a century ago!

I guess where I'm at -- and I really hope more evidence or opinions surface here -- is that if everyone acknowledges he was at least in MEETS at some point does give some credence to the stories of his involvement. And Perkins' too. But when and which...? david Edited by: taraco at: 10/14/05 4:48 pm

Count Gamula (10/14/05 4:50 pm)

Re: Who doubled in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN ------Quote: ------Perkins was one of the sailors in KING KONG -- if anyone knows which one, let us know! ------

I don't know about Perkins being one of the sailors, but it's him rather obviously doubling for Bruce Cabot in the scene where Jack and Anne climb down the vine from Kong's mountain lair.

I'm positive it's Perkins doubling Lugosi during the battle with the Wolf Man (meaning Parker is playing the Wolf Man in the scene) but it's harder to tell about the scene of the Monster in the ice. Since there was no real stunt work involved (just the willingness to work in the cold and have a block of ice possibly come down on your head) it could be some unknown stand-in that was hired for the Lugosi-like dimple in his chin. But if it's one of the two stunt men, it's gotta be Perkins. Kerry Gammill Edited by: Count Gamula at: 10/14/05 4:58 pm

Count Gamula (10/14/05 5:06 pm)

Re: Who doubled in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN ------Quote: ------But even that is now open to question. Was it Perkins, and not Parker, who played the mute monster through most of the film, even before the fight? ------I'm not sure what you mean by this, David. I've never heard any claim that it was not Lugosi as the monster in most of the film. It's obviously him in all the pre-battle scenes except for when his is freed from the ice and when he is in Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------70 the back of the moving wagon kicking the wine barrels into the street. Kerry Gammill taraco (10/14/05 5:13 pm)

Re: Who doubled in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN ------Right. I meant was it Perkins instead of Parker in all the 'doubled' scenes.

There's no doubt it is Lugosi through most of the film. david

davlghry (10/14/05 5:32 pm)

Re:Who doubled ------

Perkins and Parker appeared in tons of movies, most of the time not disguised under heavy makeup. Checking out some of their other appearances might help to determine which one looked more like the monster in the ice.

Chesterbelloc (10/14/05 5:47 pm)

Re: Who doubled in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN ------In the comparison photos Taraco posted, I think that the Monster looks more like Parker than Perkins.

TomWeaver999 (10/14/05 6:18 pm)

Re: Re:Who doubled ------If anybody's got the book VALLEY OF THE CLIFFHANGERS, there are a couple pics of Perkins in there. Small, but maybe they can be made nice and big here. There's even one from CAPTAIN AMERICA, made around the same time as FRANK MEETS THE WOLF MAN.

There's no way for me to tell ya which sailor Perkins is in KING KONG -- he's in the background here, in the background there, I don't think he has a single line. He's NOT one of the sailors who ends up falling off the log bridge.

In one of my favorite BATMAN episodes, the first Mad Hatter two-parter, he's a highly visible henchman throughout -- but I don't think he ever takes off his hat. In the BATMAN movie, he's a henchman throughout but he's got a phony beard. He STARS in TEENAGE MONSTER, but you certainly never get a good look at him THERE!

In the mid-1980s I called Perkins about TEENAGE MONSTER and, when we got to talking about TEENAGE makeup man Jack Pierce, he dropped this bombshell on me: Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------71

"I knew Jack Pierce from Universal: I had done several Frankenstein pictures in which I doubled Frankesntein, so I had to have the Frankenstein makeup on me. And in another picture, I doubled the Wolf Man and I had to have the Wolf Man makeup on me. So I'd been in the makeup chair with Jack Pierce making me up long before we got to TEENAGE MONSTER."

Very offhand, and then he went back to talking about TEENAGE MONSTER, with no intention of returning to Frankenstein; I wrapped up TEENAGE MONSTER-wise, then asked,

TW: Getting back to you playing Frankenstein and the Wolf Man--through the years, it's always been Eddie Parker who's gotten the credit for doing the stunt-doubling in those pictures. Perkins: Well, Eddie Parker did--Eddie did some of them WITH me. When I did one of the Frankensteins, he did the Wolf Man in the same picture. But I didn't do all the Frankensteins, just a couple of them. In one of the ones where Eddie played the Wolf Man, the beautiful Hungarian actress Ilona Massey was the gal in it, and I [as the Monster] had to carry her around this basement with all this broken-down stuff in it. Alll she had on was a very pale blue, see-through negligee kind of thing and I think she had a pair of shorts, but she had no bra or anything like that. She was almost stark naked! I can remember somebody saying, "Jeez, I'd like to get this dame somewhere where I can DO somethin' with her!"--I think that was a guy named Wes Hopper, a stuntman in those days. I had to carry her around in this cellar, with all the flood waters comin' down over all the crap that was in there.

TW: Is that dangerous, to be on a set where that amount of water is crashing down on you? Perkins: (HE LEFT THE SUBJECT OF "FMTWM" AND STARTED TELLING STORIES OF WORKING ON THE 1930 "MOBY DICK" AND THE 1935 "MUTINY ON THE BOUNTY" -- I HAD TO BRING HIM BACK TO "FMTWM" again)

TW: Did the FMTWM director Roy William Neill stage the climactic fight, or did you and Eddie Parker choreograph it yourselves, as you would on a serial? Perkins: Neill just told Eddie and myself to work out a fight and let him SEE it. We worked out the thing, then we just walked through it [for Neill], went through the motions, and said, 'This is what we'll do here,' 'This is what we'll do there.' He told us what he wanted, where he wanted us to start and where he wanted us to finish and what kind of a fight he wanted it to be. Apart from that, he left us pretty well alone."

I'm sure I HAD to have asked him about other Monster scenes in the movie ... but maybe I didn't. I was a 20-something then and this was one of my first interviews. AND, if I DID ask him ("Were you buried in ice?") and he said "No," I wouldn't even have transcribed that in those days. (Today I WOULD, for my own files if not for the printed interview.)

A few years later, I wanted to know more, and called him up and asked him if I could send him a tape of FMTWM and then go over all the scenes with him. That's when he told me something that he'd kept a secret from me up 'til then, that he was blind, so of course could not watch any tape.

When I (still a 20-something-year-old) wrote in UNIVERSAL HORRORS that Parker was recognizable under the Monster makeup in other scenes, I was taking books (which I then thought were reliable) at their word -- all my life, I'd been reading that it was plainly Parker under the makeup, and I accepted that. (*I* can't look at a heavy makeup and tell you who's underneath to save my life.) Now of course, the facts in those books are highly suspect, and I regret that I was one of the (many) writers who read them and then perpetuated the "yup, it's Parker all right" line. Hey, I was 20-something!

Edited by: TomWeaver999 at: 10/14/05 6:29 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------72

DonM435 (10/14/05 7:14 pm)

Re: Ice ------Quote: ------I still find it hard to believe that an article in a totally obscure kids' monster magazine -- MODERN MONSTERS, and I'm old enough to have bought that issue off the stands!! -- could have mutated into the 'Eddie Parker everywhere' situation we have now. ------

Well, I'm also old enough to have read that article. In fact, I did read it back then. But, I'd swear that I'd read the stuff about Parker doubling Lugosi before that . . . in Fantastic Monsters or one of the Charlton mags, I think. The Glut/Grant article, to me, simply "confirmed" several cases that I'd already read about, and extended the man's legacy to just about every other classic monster role.

I'm sure that the notorious article fanned the flames, but the sparks were already there.

Ted Newsom (10/14/05 7:34 pm)

Re: Re:Who doubled ------Nothing in the Charlton mags, I'll guarentee ya. FANTASTIC MONSTERS OF THE MOVIES is a possibility, but also suspect on a factual level. Bob Burns and Paul Blaisdell were the creative team, and Bob's love and knowldege of these films is well-known. Blaisdell, I think, had an appreciation for them but not necessarily a chapter-and-verse memory.

The problem of FANTASTIC MONSTERS is that Bob was also a friend of "professional stuntman Bart Andrews," that font of glorious misinformation based on S-shaped spines and long Saturdays watching Republic serials. In fact, in the audio interview (circa 1968) with Glenn Strange, the cowboy actor is interviewed by Bob Burns, Don Glut and... yep... Bart Andrews ... who annoyingly keeps interrupting Strange's anecdotes.

George Washington didn't chop down a cherry tree; that was a bogus fable invented by a "Parson" Weems 3 decades after Washington's death to illustrate Washington's honesty.

Abraham Lincoln didn't dash off the Gettysburg Address on the back of an envelope and deliver the speech half-improvised. He knew the importance of healing the country and wrote several drafts until he was satisfied.

Robert Kennedy never had an affair with Marilyn Monroe.

Coca-Cola and aspirin cannot get you high.

And no matter how many times it's repeated, there is no proof that Eddie Parker ever played the Frankenstein Monster... except, in various ways, the fanboy guesses of non-professional un-stuntman Bart "Pardon me while I get myself murdered in a steam room" Andrews.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/14/05 7:37 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------73 taraco (10/14/05 7:55 pm)

Re: Re:Who doubled ------Well, I know the power of a single match to start a forest fire, but I still find it difficult to accept that an Eddie Parker myth could have started with one man's inaccurate account. But ...

What's odd to me is that far more veterans of those Universal films were around in the 60s and 70s, and one would think that in the tight-knit community of Hollywood -- where, yes, actors and actresses DO know the names of the stuntmen and women they worked with -- someone would have spoken out and said, 'Hey waitaminute, it wasn't Eddie, it was Gil!'

But those skepticisms aside, the only verbal evidence we have is from Gil Perkins himself, and I must admit what Tom has posted is quite persuasive.

Add to Tom's post this, from Greg Mank a few pages back:

Mank: 'I spoke with Gil Perkins long ago and he told me about doubling the Monster in F Meets W - but he only mentioned the fight scene (which he remembered mainly because he got to carry Iona Massey!). He said nothing about the ice cavern, and I can kick myself now for not having asked him directly if he remembered doing it (I presumed at that time that it was definitely Eddie Parker in the ice).'

So where does that leave us?

-- With Ted's insistence that it is as plain as the putty on Gil Perkin's face -- that it wasn't Eddie Parker at all and never was?

-- With the visual evidence, which leaves things unresolved? The trio of photos posted earlier leads me to think the Monster, as Kim Carnes once sang, 'has Eddie Parker eyes.'

-- Or with the testimony of Perkins? He says quite plainly in at least two interviews -- Weaver's and Mank's -- that hey, it was him.

One of the reasons for starting this thread was to review the evidence, and while nothing is conclusive yet, I find myself beginning to tilt to Perkins. Although it seems also clear that the guy carrying Massey is NOT the guy behind the ice. It still could be both played the Monster.

Fascinating stuff... Let's hope other Vasarians come forward! david

Edited by: taraco at: 10/14/05 8:00 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------74

Joe Karlosi (10/14/05 8:05 pm)

Re: Re:Who doubled ------After Tom's account I'm leaning strongly to Perkins myself. But in looking at the photos of the monster in the ice, and then the one carrying Ms. Massey... it could be the same guy to me. The neck looks huge in both shots, and the forehead piece is flat as a pancake (not that that necessarily proves anything)... ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Ted Newsom (10/14/05 9:49 pm)

Re: Re:Who doubled ------Note also, however, that the Monster wrestling with the Wolf Man in the frame capture -- and the various shots of him in the sequence grabbing Ilona Massey-- looks facially different than the still of the Monster carrying the broad.

Given the rather lengthy arguement we had over Parker "doubling" Chaney for those strenuous scenes of lying on an operating table or wrapped in bandages on a bed, let's bear in mind that people's faces look different when you look at them differently.

Some people (like me) look at the still of Hardwicke, Atwill & the Monster in the cellar recovery room and see Chaney. Others say, "Nope, not Chaney, ergo Eddie Parker."

Yes, I see (or seem to see) the similarity between the one still of Parker (above, left) and the monster in that one still with the passed-out Ilona Massey (too many Balalaikas, probably. Cut her off.) But it makes absolutely no logical sense (as I've tried to argue before a couple times) to shoot a sequence like the climax of F MEETS WOLF and switch off stuntmen. It makes no practical sense from a production standpoint, none at all.

Further, the other profile shot of Parker looks almost like a different guy-- receding jaw, dumb look, etc, as opposed to the dapper Aldo-Ray-ish fella in the suit on the far left. But it's supposed to be the same man. Different angles. Different positions... same guy.

There is no-- hello? Anybody home? Can I come in?-- no reference to Eddie Parker playing this menagerie of monsters before the mid 1960s, all based on the word of a nutjob who was talking through his... well, not his mouth, anyway.

Then after this, over the years, the factoid kept being repeated. Except it was never true-- and the guy who first wrote it, Don Glut, now admits it isn't true.

The little girls in the 1910 pictures didn't really sit with fairies. The fairies were cutouts from a picture book. When the surviving little girl was in her 80s and dying, she admitted the fraud.

The "Surgeon's Photograph" of the Loch Ness Monster is a fake.

Houdini didn't die in the water chamber.

The large-snooted woman in the stag film isn't Barbra Streisand. The blonde babe in "Apppleknockers and the Coke" Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------75 ain't Marilyn Monroe.

The Monster on the table in the explosion /debris long-shot, wrestling on the ground with the Wolf Man, waving his arms around stupidly like a windmill (or rather, a gross parody of Lugosi's physical actions)-- it's all the same guy. It then stands to reason that it's the same guy on the wagon... and in the ice. Which would make it Perkins... right?

taraco (10/14/05 10:00 pm)

Re: Re:Who doubled ------Weird things happen on movie sets, Ted. What you say makes sense, except what if Perkins was sick that day?

Also, it seems odd that Perkins, even without being asked, wouldn't volunteer about the incredible ice scene. But that's not proof it wasn't Perkins freezing back there.

The evidence, yes, seems to tilt to Perkins. But still, Parker was on the set -- everyone agrees with that -- and he was a skilled and experienced stunt man and perhaps he pitched in as the Monster as well.

The only proof of that we have is from this other 'stuntman' who said it was Parker. (And sorry, he may have been wrong, crazy, misguided, but I'm really not comfortable calling people, even the deceased, 'nutjobs' and the like. You're a lot closer to this situation in real terms, so I'll back off, but a little dignity, please).

Still, I think we'd all like to hear more from Glut, from Ted, Tom, Greg and Skal, from Bob Burns when he gets back from Skull Island in New Zealand. From Scott Essman. I'll try to contact as many as I can.

Because if we do determine that Ted and Tom and others are right, then I think the CHFB should help lead the way in correcting the horror history books. But let's nail it, if we can.

Clearly, Perkins and Parker were on the MEETS set. And that still leaves things not yet a slam-dunk. Compelling as the Perkins' evidence is. david

And darn it, the Monster above still looks like he has 'Eddie Parker eyes!'

Edited by: taraco at: 10/14/05 10:10 pm

DonM435 (10/14/05 10:08 pm)

Re: Re:Who doubled ------Well, I'm quite certain that the Glut/Grant revelation didn't exactly strike me dumb. Perhaps something else did, but somewhere I had already read of the Parker legend.

"Born on a mountaintop in Tennessee . . ." No, not that Parker! Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------76

One of those second-rate monster mags (i.e., anything that wasn't COF or FM) ran something like "The Four Faces of Frankenstein" that discussed the four (4) actors that had portrayed the Classic Monster. The author excused Lugosi, saying something like "The Master of the Macabre was well over fifty at the time, and gave as good a performance as might be expected." (Hell, that might be a verbatim quote!) I know where Ted is coming from, but still couldn't rule out a HORROR/MAD MONSTERS article.

Edited by: DonM435 at: 10/14/05 10:10 pm

taraco (10/14/05 10:11 pm)

Re: Re:Who doubled ------>>still couldn't rule out a HORROR/MAD MONSTERS article.

Calling Dennis Druktenis!!

taraco (10/14/05 10:49 pm)

Don Glut responds ... ------We asked a series of horror experts to comment on all this. Here's a response just now from genre expert and Frankenstein historian Don Glut, who is credited (or blamed), with starting it all!!

Writes Don:

Having watched the movie endless times and seen it twice in 35mm on a big-theatre screen -- and (this is important) knowing what these stuntmen looked like and their approximate heights -- Eddie Parker, who was a tall man, was the Monster in the more distant shots, while Gil Perkins, who was fairly short but who had the "better face," was the Monster in the closer shots (including the great close-up in the ice).

I wonder if a third stuntman might also have been involved in that one shot of the Monster alone, breaking his bonds and stepping away from the platform. The latter MAY have been a pick-up shot done on an off-day. The Monster doesn't look either like Parker or Perkins in that shot and even bears a very slight resemblance to Chaney. Maybe it was a stuntman named Parkins?

From past discussions on this issue, I know a lot of fans will keep arguing about which stuntman did which scenes. But the continuing confusion all boils down to the same problem -- most horror fans don't know what these two stuntman look like.

Don

------

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------77

Ted Newsom (10/14/05 11:00 pm)

Re: Re:Who doubled ------Quote: ------Eddie Parker, who was a tall man, was the Monster in the more distant shots, while Gil Perkins, who was fairly short... ------

Bless Don for his input. We've covered this ground before.

Eddie Parker was six feet tall. Gil Perkins was six feet tall. Lon Chaney was between 5'11 and 6 feet tall. Lugosi was 6 feet or 6'1". They're all the same height.

Look at the three pictures again. Gil Perkins has a small cleft dimple in his chin. Ed Parker doesn't. The monster in the middle (and the one in the ice) does.

Ted Newsom (10/14/05 11:03 pm)

Re: Don Glut responds ... ------Quote: ------Maybe it was a stuntman named Parkins? ------

This actually sounds about as sensible a compromise as I've heard.

taraco (10/14/05 11:05 pm)

Re: Re:Who doubled ------Sigh...

Where's Donnie Dunagan when we need him: He was a great big man. david

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------78

TomWeaver999 (10/14/05 11:15 pm)

Parker's '50s fright films ------<< Parker was billed as the Mummy in ABBOTT & COSTELLO MEET THE MUMMY. He worked uncredited on several other 50s Universal sci-fi films, possibly TARANTULA, THE MOLE PEOPLE and ABBOTT & COSTELLO MEET DR. JEKYLL & MR. HYDE (although again, this information is from the Modern Monsters/Don Glut article and mostly unverified from studio records. <<

Parker IS in all of the above -- A&C MEET MUMMY with billing, TARANTULA in three roles (two mutants and an airport attendant), MOLE PEOPLE as one of the Beasts of the Dark ($345 a week!) and A&C MEET J&H -- I even have a studio memo where he was taken to a hospital for X-rays after he hurt his ankle on that set.

He's also Charles Laughton's henchman in THE STRANGE DOOR, Bruce Gordon's henchman in CURSE OF THE UNDEAD and a policeman in THE MONOLITH MONSTERS.

Allllll the books say he's the Monster in MONSTER ON THE CAMPUS ... and I'm sure it's possible ... but I've never found confirmation of that one.

LesDaniels (10/14/05 11:37 pm)

Re: Monster on ice ------Everyone keeps talking about the monster in the ice, how cold it must have been, etc. But was it really ice? It has always looked a little fake to me, and I'd always assumed that it was artificial, made of celluloid or plastic or something beside frozen water. I think making a set out of ice would have been difficult, and tough to maintain during hours of shooting under hot lights. Does anyone know for sure? It might help in determining who got the job of acting in that scene.

blackbiped (10/15/05 1:59 am)

Re: Parker's '50s fright films ------It would be hard to shoot a big wall of ice for long under those hot studio lights, but it sure looks real when Chaney is chipping away at it, at least that part of it. Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

georgechastain (10/15/05 3:53 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------David -- VERY interesting topic! Thanks for inviting me to contribute my two cents. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------79

Here it is: myweb.wvnet.edu/~u0e53/frankenstuntmen/

I'll dig around and see if I can turn up anything else, and at least provide a better version of the Players Directory portrait of Eddie Parker.

George "E-gor" Chastain (sometimes aka Ed "Ygor" Chastain)

lsasser (10/15/05 5:11 am)

Re: Parker's '50s fright films ------Good point Les. That may be an ice sheet that Chaney breaks through to get at "The Monster", but I'm pretty sure that the set dressing around it is Movie Magic (probably toxic at that). No expensive refrigerated sets for budget conscious Universal.

Joe Karlosi (10/15/05 6:42 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------Quote: ------Look at the three pictures again. Gil Perkins has a small cleft dimple in his chin. Ed Parker doesn't. The monster in the middle (and the one in the ice) does. ------

Ted, this actually make a great deal of sense. And it's the one striking detail in the otherwise sketchy photos where we can see a common link. I think that helps prove more than ever that Perkins was the monster. Another thing -- from the photos, it would appear that Parker has a natural indentation on his right cheek. But in the film, the monster is given that "fake" beauty mark to compensate for the gap.

I find the notion that several "different" stuntmen each were made up as the monster kinda absurd. This is Universal -- and this was a B picture. I can't imagine going through all the trouble of spending the extra time/cost of making up different doubles - and for what? One for a closeup here, another for a longshot there... I mean, if Universal was so meticulous about the look and impression of the monster, why'd they even cast Bela Lugosi at all..??

I think Perkins was always the monster. Perhaps Eddie Parker just doubled for The Wolf Man.

Sound feasible? ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Edited by: Joe Karlosi at: 10/15/05 6:58 am

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------80

Ted Newsom (10/15/05 8:05 am)

Re: Parker's '50s fright films ------Joe is my new best friend.

The logical backflips necessary to explain "multiple stuntmen" are silly. If a certain stuntman wasn't available on one day, and another was hanging around, what if they put the make-up on him? Sure, and if I had some ham I could make a ham sandwich if I had some bread.

At no other point in this series does it appear that multiple stuntmen with various specialties were hauled out. The Monster is a physical part, but it's not THAT physical. On any other previous given film (and on the later ones) we've seemingly shown that there MAY have been as many as ONE stuntman on few occasions during a shooting schedule.

Here, however, we have one for ice-sitting, one for walking, one for barrel-throwing, one for girl-carrying, one for strap-snapping, one for arm-swinging, and one for water-guzzling.

Universal's penurious reputation, as Senor Karlosi points out, was well-known. Could there have been an unrecorded incident when Gil Perkins suffered a short recurrance of mogo on the logogo and called in sick at 4 in the morning (making Jack Pierce awfully testy), and someone substituted for him that day? Sure, and it's possible Yakima Canutt gagged the fight scene uncredited, and that mendacious and unreliable old Gil Perkins just "forgot" to mention that fact out of jealous spite years later. The Monster looks like a bigger in certain shots, and we know Ed Wolfe was seven feet tall, so it's possible they hired him for the Big Monster Shots. There's a nice jump-scene when the Wolf Man leaps down onto the Monster, and little Dave Sharpe was the best "jump" man in the business, so it's possible Sharpe did the jump that one day. OK, nobody's ever heard Sharpe's connection with the film-- but nobody ever heard Parker connected with the film until the mid-1960s either. The annoying problem that no one who would have first-hand knowledge of this ever mentioned these things doesn't mean it isn't a fact.

"Can you prove it didn't happen?"-- Criswell, 1959

There is no pre-1966 documentation or any first-hand testimony (pre- or post-1966) that Ed Parker played the Monster.

In the pro-Parker camp: we have the best-guess of a young fan, Bart Andrews, known for movie obscurantia and wild untruths in equal measure-- used as an "expert source" in an article written by an equally enthusiastic young writer, Don Glut, which states in a semi-pro/semi-fan magazine MODERN MONSTERS that it was Ed Parker. Neither young fan was on the set, neither had any first-hand sources from people on the cast or crew, nor did they have access to any studio documentation; this "identification" was simply best-guess based on the sizes of the men involved, the presumed recognizability of an actor under a heavy make-up in shots that were specifically shot to DISGUISE the fact that it was a stuntman, and a pre-frame-grab-era comparison of a Monster in a horror movie to visual memories of a Cowboy & bit player in assorted westerns

This same article also states Parker played in a number of movies that he didn't (i.e., THIS ISLAND EARTH). The writer subsequently backtracked and realized that he was wrong in many (but not all) instances in the article. With all good intentions, Don repeated the statement in his subsequent books (i.e., THE FRANKENSTEIN LEGEND).

In the absence of any other scholarly book on the films, Don's book became the sole authoritative source, from which innumerable writers repeated the claim. I've got $50 that nobody is going to find any reference to Parker & FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN any time before this MODERN MONSTERS article. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------81

On the other hand, we have interview statements to at least two seasoned and knowledgable professional adult film historians (Greg Mank and Tom Weaver) from an otherwise-verifiable stuntman, Gil Perkins, who was there, and enough visual evidence to indicate that he consistently played the role (subject to minute photographic examination and coin-flipping), and an inescapable sense of logic that when you hire a stuntman, you use him for the part.

(I wouldn't put too much stock in the little beauty mark on the girl-carrying Monster's face. That's clearly there to match the one on Lugosi's face... a vestigial mark to provide some sort of continuity to Karloff's sunken cheeks. Hey, wait a second... Ilona Massey has that same mark. Could they be related?)

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/15/05 9:11 am

federal operator 99 (10/15/05 8:19 am)

Re: Parker's '50s fright films ------Here are two photos of Perkins and Parker I found in Jack Mathis' Republic Confidential: The Players (Volume 2):

And here's some frame grabs of the Monster-in-ice:

At the risk of falling in with the heretical "professional stuntman Bart Andrews" camp, in my opinion the monster-in-ice does more closely resemble Parker. Case in point, the Monster has a fuller upper lip, as does Parker, but Perkins has a very thin upper lip (to the point of being nearly non-existent). Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------82

Nothing conclusive, of course, but here is an animation to consider:

NOT INCLUDED

Edited by: federal operator 99 at: 10/15/05 8:20 am

Rakshasa (10/15/05 8:20 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) .. . ------Going strictly by the photos provided in this thread, I would say Gil Perkins was the monster double in FMTWM.

TomWeaver999 (10/15/05 8:29 am)

Re: Parker's '50s fright films ------Federal Op, do you have VALLEY OF THE CLIFFHANGERS? There's a 1943 photo of Gil Perkins in there, that perhaps you could post (in the CAPTAIN AMERICA chapter).

TomWeaver999 (10/15/05 8:35 am)

Re: Parker's '50s fright films ------And the photo of Perkins Fed. Operator provided shows the identical dimple in the chin nicely.

Ted Newsom (10/15/05 9:25 am)

The ears have it. ------At the risk of heading into S-shaped spine territory, there is a way to try to make a definite decision: the ear whorls. I know, I know, we've had a lot of razzing on that, but the Bertillion method of identification, begun in France in the late 19th century and employed by various police departments over here, actually had something going for it. Fingerprint identification came in shortly after that and minute finger-whorls provided far more precise identification, but that doesn't negate "matching ears."

If (if if if) we could compare clear profile or 3/4 profile shots of the 2 stuntmen with photos and/or frame grabs --- hmmm.

I think there's a relatively clear profile shot of the Monster when he turns to grab Ilona Massey.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/15/05 9:25 am

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------83 taraco (10/15/05 9:53 am)

Re: Parker's '50s fright films ------Wow, now we're talkin'!!!

And amazing to see that E-gor (sorry, George), has a far better actor comparison already online -- here's that link again to George 'E-Gor' Chastain's amazing comparisons: myweb.wvnet.edu/%7Eu0e53/frankenstuntmen/

This is amazingly inconclusive to me. Parker (in the Chastain photos, linked above), also has at least the hint of a cleft chin or a dimple; Perkins has much more of the dimple; but that morph above seems inconclusive... Yes, would love to see a Perkins morph! [MORPHS NOT INCLUDED]

Also, in a later email, Don Glut insists, even now, after I sent him my first Unholy Three images: 'The photo of the Monster in the middle of the group is Parker, by the way.' david Edited by: taraco at: 10/15/05 9:58 am

federal operator 99 (10/15/05 10:14 am)

Re: The ears have it. ------Sorry, Tom, but I do not own a copy of Valley of the Cliffhangers (just "The Players") to reference the photo of Perkins.

Per Ted's request, here are some more cropped frame grabs of the Monster from FMTWM, when he grabs Ilona Massey: Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------84

I don't know about the ears, but whoever donned the Monster makeup sure had a destinctive way of pursing his lips, as you can reference in frames 3, 4 and six.

Also, while frames 1-6 were made in one fluid take, 7 and 8 represent two different set-ups. To me, the actor in the last frame who finally totes Ilona -- or her stand-in (more controversy!) -- doesn't much resemble the make-up in the prior frames.

And the guy in frame seven has a somewhat bulbous nose with a very flat bridge...

taraco (10/15/05 10:20 am)

CSI Vasaria ------That's AMAZING, those photos. Who IS this guy?? (Those guys???) Here's that profile shot of Eddie Parker, which certainly shows a flatter nose. Now of course the nose could have been built-up in the shots before the last two above, or not built-up in the final ones, or it could be Perkins, then Parker, or all Perkins, or all Parker. My stomach hurts!!

Nose and ear comparisons, anyone?

Edited by: taraco at: 10/15/05 10:24 am

TomWeaver999 (10/15/05 11:21 am)

Re: Parker's '50s fright films ------Gil Perkins doesn't want this solved.

I just went to another book, a book of interviews with veterans of Westerns, in which Perkins is interviewed. It features pictures of Perkins (in crowd scenes) from THE ALAMO and THE SEA CHASE. In both, he has his hat pulled weirdly down over the one ear we'd be able to see if the hat wasn't there. The caption writer, to identify him in these crowd shots, specifies in both captions that Perkins is the guy with the hat down over his left ear. Yeeesh.

federal operator 99 (10/15/05 11:23 am)

Re: Parkerstein Vs. Perkinstein ------In the interest of fair play, here is a side-by-side comparison of Parkerstein and Perkinstein:

[MORPHS - NOT INCLUDED] Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------85

I tried to pick the best frame match-ups with the pics as referenced at E-gor's site and the Mathis book, but both of these fail to capture the stuntmen in the appropriate poses.

I agree with David that the results are far short of conclusive (especially since I once managed to morph a photo of myself into a reasonable facsimile of Pierce Brosnan, as a bit of wish-fulfillment for my wife!). But, based on the contours of the mouths in the Monster and Parker photos below (as well as the ample nostrils), I would lean toward the it's-Parker-in-the-ice theory:

Jacks Garage (10/15/05 11:28 am)

Gil or Ed? ------Fun discussion here, so I thought I'd chime in on the Perkins side. Author Tim Lilley, who produced a number of books on John Wayne and interviews with people who worked with Wayne, (called Campfire Tales, I think) ran an interview with Gil Perkins, maybe 5-10 years ago. Again, off handedly while talking about early stunt jobs, I remember Perkins mentioned doing the monster at the end of FMTWM, and also coming back for a number of pickup shots for earlier in the the film that Lugosi wouldn't do, or wasn't available for (I believe these pickup shots were to help cover some deleted dialog scenes). I've recently moved and have no idea where the book is at the moment, but I'll try to dig it out.

taraco (10/15/05 11:43 am)

Don Glut's letter to Filmfax.. . ------We've heard again from Don Glut, who says he first read about an unnamed stuntman filling in for Lugosi in an issue of MONSTERS & THINGS. He says he first heard the name Eddie Parker from Bob Burns in 1964.

He also forwarded to us a letter he wrote to FILMFAX, which has not been printed. This after Scott Essman's piece picked up a lot of erroneous information about Parker.

Here's a recent photo, and then Don's letter to FILMFAX: Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------86

Don Glut

To FILMFAX:

My first professionally published work was an article for the third issue of Modern Monsters magazine – written under the pen name Don Grant, which I was then using as a rock ‘n roll performer. The article was about movie stuntman Eddie Parker and his roles in monster films.

Unfortunately (and I apologize again for this) the piece was written in the days when hearsay, inference and speculation seemed to hold as much weight as original research. As a result, the numerous errors published by me as fact in that article would often be repeated by other authors – as recently as in the story by Scott Essman in FILMFAX #105.

For the record…

Parker did not double for Karloff as the Monster in Son of Frankenstein; Bud Wolfe did. And Parker was not the Monster in Hellzapoppin’; it was stuntman Dale Van Sickel under that makeup.

Parker’s presumed doubling Chaney in The Ghost of Frankenstein (on the rooftop and during the fiery climax) seems to be true. The man doubling Chaney (wearing an ill-fitting rubber mask in some scenes) certainly moves like Parker, but this cannot be unequivocally verified.

While Parker did double Lugosi as the Monster in Frankenstein Meets the Wolf Man, those shots of the Monster in the ice – including that great close-up – do not feature Parker, but fellow stuntman Gil Perkins. Parker, being a tall man, did all of the wider shots with the Monster where size mattered (that is Parker in the photo of the Monster holding Ilona Massey); the considerably shorter Perkins, who had the better face for the Monster, did the closer shots.

I’m not sure just how much doubling Parker did for Chaney in the Mummy films. There are some shots in The Mummy’s Ghost that do not look much like Parker to me.

Yes, that’s Parker playing two different characters in Tarantula. I suspect that the reason we don’t get a close-up view of him in the desert -- and subsequently on the morgue slab -- is that viewers might recognize one of the recycled monster masks from Abbott and Costello Meet Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. But it’s not Eddie as the Mutant in This Island Earth. That honor goes to Regis Parton.

I really doubt that it’s Parker doubling Lugosi again in Bride of the Monster. It doesn’t look to me like Eddie. And while, except for the transformations, Parker portrayed Hyde in Abbott and Costello Meet Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, it was not he (nor Glenn Strange, as sometimes stated) but character actor Chuck Hamilton (also the tall London “bobby”) who was the Frankenstein Monster in that film’s wax museum sequence.

It’s erroneous that Parker’s movie work went largely without credit. He was credited on screen for seemingly countless roles he’d played, mostly in serials and “B” Westerns. I think one problem monster-movie fans have always had with Eddie is that they really don’t know what he looks like – even though he had nice parts in such genre fare as The Monolith Monsters (police officer) and Curse of the Undead (gunslinger).

Original research is very important. Otherwise the same old errors – some of them, alas, started by yours truly -- continue to be perpetuated.

Don Glut (aka – a long time ago -- “Don Grant”) Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------87

So Don contends it's Perkins in the ice, Parker carrying Ilona (at least in the famous photo), and some mix and matching during the shoot. What complicates that is Perkins says he remembers carrying Ilona. (Possibly Parker did and then Perkins did before the fight scene?)

Anyhow, to round this out, we found a photo of earnest young filmmaker Glut at donaldfglut.com:

Don's letter is significant in that it clarifies the record -- at least as far as Don's opinion stands -- and we hope Filmfax sees fit to print it in full as well.

Here, the debate continues ...

Edited by: taraco at: 10/15/05 12:15 pm

TomWeaver999 (10/15/05 12:50 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------<< Author Tim Lilley, who produced a number of books on John Wayne and interviews with people who worked with Wayne, (called Campfire Tales, I think) ran an interview with Gil Perkins <<

I have a Xerox of that interview and FRANK MEETS WOLF MAN isn't mentioned (unless a page is missing, or unless I'm going crazy). Maybe Tim Lilley ran a different interview with Perkins somewhere else?

A 16-page chapter *by* Perkins, about his stunt career, can be found in the book THE REAL TINSEL.

I just looked at a shot of Perkins from TEENAGE MONSTER and his nostrils look plenty wide there. If they weren't in real life, then Jack Pierce somehow made them wider for TEENAGE MONSTER -- and maybe FMTWM also.

Edited by: TomWeaver999 at: 10/15/05 12:55 pm

georgechastain (10/15/05 12:53 pm)

More pix of Eddie Parker ------Added a few more grainy shots (but with different expressions) of Eddie Parker from 1939 and 40 Players Directory to the same web page: myweb.wvnet.edu/~u0e53/frankenstuntmen/

George Chastain

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------88

Ted Newsom (10/15/05 1:12 pm)

Gilman Meets Parkerstein ------

Ted Newsom Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------89

(10/15/05 1:13 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------

Ted Newsom (10/15/05 1:15 pm)

Carry On ------

The publicity still on the left was shot for one purpose, to show something neat to attract ticket buyers. They were selling a movie called FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN, so they showed a clear picture of Frankenstein (or The Monster, whatever they might've called him).

The frame grab on the left is from a sequence darkly-lit and framed to 1) enhance the mood and mystery of the scene and 2) disguise the fact that it's a stuntman and not the actor we've been watching for the past hour.

One does not forget, Herr Baron, carrying an Hungarian hottie wearing no bra. Gil Perkins remembered. And it would make little or no sense to have Ed Parker come back the next day to pose for still photographs. In any case, there's that damned chin dimple again.

Note also that Ilona Massey's laying R to L in one, L to R in the other (as far as I can tell from the frame grab).

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/15/05 1:31 pm Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------90

Jacks Garage (10/15/05 1:17 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------Thanks Tom-I've got the whole series of books from Lilley, and don't know offhand if he had additional interview with Perkins of not, but I hadn't read your interview with Perkins, so I'll see if I can find the one I'm refering to once I get home from work tonight.

TomWeaver999 (10/15/05 1:31 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------Page 344 of VALLEY OF THE CLIFFHANGERS features a profile shot of Perkins in THE BLACK WIDOW (1947) -- and the end of his nose is, in my uneducated opinion, identical to the Monster's nose in the profile shot Ted posted above.

taraco (10/15/05 1:35 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------The Perkins' dimple evidence is compelling -- very compelling -- but I also see at least the hint of a dimple or indent in several Parker photos as well.

It's funny...you can almost argue a case either way. Fed Op's thin lip match is convincing as well -- to Parker. And I find the ears and nose not that different in the profile shots, although the ear, yeah, does look thicker.

And it looks like two different Monsters in those side-by-side Ilona shots Ted just posted! Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------91

On the flip side, if Perkins is so short (as Don Glut argues), he sure doesn't look small in the fight stills, even compared to Parker's Wolf Man.

The most surprising thing to me -- and what complicates this so much -- is how similar Parker and Perkins look, in real life! david Edited by: taraco at: 10/15/05 1:39 pm

Ted Newsom (10/15/05 1:39 pm)

Iceee # 2 (IN CASE THE OTHER GOT LOST) ------

(Jeeze, what would I do without ImageShack? Have a life, maybe?)

Ted Newsom (10/15/05 1:50 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------Quote: ------is how similar Parker and Perkins look, in real life! ------

Damn them both! If only one of them had been a squat one-armed Korean!

With all due respect for Don (and I really do have respect for his lifelong immersion in this stuff), his assumption that either man is taller than the other is just wrong. Perkins and Parker were the same height, therefore all this Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------92 brain-twisting hoop-jumping about having to get a "taller guy" to carry the rather smallish Ilona Massey makes no sense whatsoever. When you add two inches of Frankenstein forehead and four inches of boots to a six-foot tall stuntman, you end up with a guy who's six-feet-six. And at any rate, why on earth would it matter how tall a guy is when he's carrying a woman whose laying horizontally across his arms?

Tim Lucas VW (10/15/05 1:57 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------My own feeling about all this is that different stuntmen would certainly be used to achieve the best overall effect. That different stuntmen had to be made up as the Monster would have been no skin off the makeup department's nose, as the stuntmen might have been shot on different days, or to take advantage of their respective strengths. As to the chin cleft, Lugosi had one and it's distinctive in his appearances as the Monster; that's why one would have been particularly necessary for any closeup introducing the Monster, especially if it was scheduled for shooting after the bulk of Lugosi's scenes, which would have made the filmmakers more aware of this. I also find the morphing shot of Gil Perkins as good as conclusive.

I have only read the last three pages of this thread, so I don't know if ABBOTT & COSTELLO MEET FRANKENSTEIN has been covered yet. If it's of any use to the discussion, when I reviewed the film for VW, I remember pointing out specific shots where it seemed obvious to me that Lon Chaney had filled in for Glenn Strange.

TomWeaver999 (10/15/05 2:17 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------Yeah, we have to dispense with all this "Gil Perkins was short" stuff -- he told me he was six feet tall, and looking at stills of him in some serials, he's the same height or taller than every other guy in 'em. In fact, in VALLEY OF THE CLIFFHANGERS there's a shot of Eddie Parker standing next to Kirk Alyn (from RADAR PATROL VS. SPY KING) where Parker looks like quite the shortie!

There's another Perkins ear shot (from SPY SMASHER) in VALLEY OF THE CLIFFHANGERS page 206.

At the beginning of TARANTULA, we get a good profile shot of Eddie Parker greeting John Agar plane-side at the desert airport. A nice, clear look at his ear; his nose is NOT bulbous at the end like Perkins'/the Monster's.

This has gotta be the craziest but most wonderful thread in CHFB history...!

Edited by: TomWeaver999 at: 10/15/05 2:36 pm

Ted Newsom (10/15/05 2:39 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------Quote: Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------93

------different stuntmen would certainly be used to achieve the best overall effect... to take advantage of their respective strengths ------

... except that nothing the Monster is called upon to do is anything more than generic action: carrying a girl, wrestling a werewolf, rolling wine barrels, freezing his butt on ice.

Quote: ------As to the chin cleft... ------

... which Ed Parker does not seem to have had, except on Wednesdays and Sundays...

Back to GHOST for a moment. There are close-ups in the climax with the Monster scrunching up his face, hands toward camera, as if trying to half-disguise his face-- like a stunt double might be told to do. The same close-ups also appear later in HOUSE OF DRACULA. COULD be Chaney, I suppose... but the squeegeed grimace looks a LOT like the straining Monster in the F MEETS W series of frame grabs above.

Gil Perkins as the Ygorstein Monster? Well, in his interview, he said he did more than one Frankenstein movie...

I'm going to get nasty letters from Eddie Parker's family, betcha by golly, jah.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/15/05 2:42 pm

TomWeaver999 (10/15/05 3:04 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------<< in his interview, Perkins said he did more than one Frankenstein movie... <<

Perkins had a fabulous memory, and if he says he was the Monster in more than one Frankenflick, I bet he WAS. However, let's acknowledge the possibility that he worked in (say) FMTWM at the beginning of its shooting schedule, worked in it again a month later ... and 50 years later, his memory told him he was in two Frankenstein movies.

Ted Newsom (10/15/05 3:20 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------Fair enough... but considering the content of the Monster scenes in F MEETS W, it would be unlikely he'd confuse them, since every one of them would've involved Lon Chaney (and/or Ed Parker doubling Chaney as the Wufffmann.). Something shot in another year entirely, on the other hand...

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------94

Tim Lucas VW (10/15/05 3:41 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------Quote: ------... except that nothing the Monster is called upon to do is anything more than generic action: carrying a girl, wrestling a werewolf, rolling wine barrels, freezing his butt on ice. ------

Then we need to take into account that more than one film was being produced on the Universal lot at the same time. Stuntmen were always assumed to be invisible and thus interchangeable, so as long as the guy was wearing Lugosi's makeup, I doubt there was any pressing imperative to maintain "stuntman continuity." Perhaps Perkins was available for the shots in the ice but wasn't available on other days because he was across the lot somewhere riding a horse for Ford Beebe!

davlghry (10/15/05 4:07 pm)

Re:Gil or Ed? ------

<< Perhaps Perkins was available for the shots in the ice but wasn't available on other days because he was across the lot somewhere riding a horse for Ford Beebe!

Or working at another studio. A check of Perkins' credits show that he was employed all over town. federal operator 99 (10/15/05 4:19 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------Quote: ------Back to GHOST for a moment. There are close-ups in the climax with the Monster scrunching up his face, hands toward camera, as if trying to half-disguise his face-- like a stunt double might be told to do. ------

Here are some frame grabs from the climax of Ghost of Frankenstein. The first frame is so obviously Chaney that he might as well be saying, "Tell me about the rabbits, George!"

But I agree with Ted that the frames of the Monster in the flames could be the same double in the "grabbing Ilona Massey" vidcaps from FMTWM (Although I do believe I can detect Chaney's omnipresent mole-by-the-side-of-his nose in these)... Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------95 Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------96

Finally, here's the full-frame of the Monster toting Ilona (or Ilona's double; braless or no, she seems admirably shaped!)...

TomWeaver999 (10/15/05 4:21 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------Gil Perkins told me (about working in TV), "I'd work at Universal in an episode of something in the morning, one at MGM in the afternoon and sometimes one at Paramount at night! That wasn't a run-of-the-mill thing, but that would happen sometimes. The same thing in pictures--sometimes I'd work on six different pictures in a week, because we worked Saturdays in those days, we didn't get a five-day week until 1956. One day in 1946 I was working on Burt Lancaster's first picture THE KILLERS, doubling a guy named Jack Lambert. I had six jobs lined up for that DAY, if I could have taken them all!"

<< The first frame is so obviously Chaney that he might as well be saying, "Tell me about the rabbits, George!" <<

Funniest line in the 11 pages (so far)!

Edited by: TomWeaver999 at: 10/15/05 4:23 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------97

Ted Newsom (10/15/05 4:25 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------Does not compute.

If you know you need a stuntman for a given length of time in the schedule, then you book him for that length of time. Note that Tom W points out Ed Parker -- unbilled, interchangable, veritably a dress extra in a rubber mask-- was employed for a week on MOLE PEOPLE, and there sure as heck don't look like a week's worth of Mole People monster shots-- which would mean the extras/stunt men /whatever you want to call them were on standby, probably hanging around with their masks off drinking coffee.

Whether it's 1943 or 1956 (or 2005), daily rates or per-gag rates would cost more than simply putting a guy on a weekly. Given Lugosi's age when the film would have been broken down and boarded-- or at LEAST given his collapse on the set (presumably in the ice sequence)-- they would have had a stuntman on call throughout his scheduled employment period just to be cautious-- and probably in full costume and make-up.

In any case, there's no indication that Parker ever donned the headpiece and bolts, except rumor and a couple of stills that show a guy with a different nose, cheek, chin and ear.

Of course, maybe Jack Pierce built up some special cotton-&-collodion face elements to make sure the special shots of Ed Parker looked like Gil Perkins. Nah. He probably farmed the stuff out to Ellis Berman for a one-piece rubber Gil Perkins mask. Much faster that way.

Ted Newsom (10/15/05 4:31 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------Great grabbin'! Gotta say, the GHOST frames look like Chaney after all-- although from Picture #4 onward, they start to look more like Joe Besser. Lotsa chins, and a "Oooooh, I'l ha-a-a-r-r-r-rm yo-o-o-u-u-u!" expression.

Too bad they didn't use that Wolfie/Frankie shot on a lobby card. Way Koool.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/15/05 4:35 pm

Joe Karlosi (10/15/05 4:43 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------I can't believe it. After seeing GHOST a hundred times and always seeing an "obvious" stuntman in those fire scenes whenever I looked at it, these shots above make me think it was actually CHANEY HIMSELF for the first time ever! That mole on the side of the nose is indeed present! ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------98

TomWeaver999 (10/15/05 5:01 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------<< Tom W points out Ed Parker was employed for a week on MOLE PEOPLE <<

Tut-tut -- I only said he made $345 a week. I don't know if he worked one week, or MORE than a week, but "$345 a week" was his rate on that one.

<< the extras/stunt men /whatever you want to call them <<

On MOLE PEOPLE, Parker's job title was "utility stuntman" ... whatever that means.

HalLane (10/15/05 6:18 pm)

Gil or Ed? ------Still wondering what Eddie Parker looked like? Apparently Alan G. Barbour knew, as he identifies him several times in his illustrated movie books, all unquestionably the same face, giving us a good look at the man from many angles over several years. Here's what we've got: From CLIFFHANGER: pg. 152, RADAR PATROL VS. SPY KING, full face (several inches shorter than Kirk Alyn); pg.171, as JUNGLE JIM, 1937. From DAYS OF THRILLS AND ADVENTURE: two great left profiles from 1944, in THE TIGER WOMAN and HAUNTED HARBOR. From A THOUSAND AND ONE DELIGHTS: pg. 92, the MASKED MARVEL has the drop on a full faced, tuxedoed Parker and his LARGE BROKEN NOSE! Thats right, in 1943, Parker's nose definitely seems "dressed to the right". It's also pretty obvious that the receding chinned, taper jawed, thick lower lipped Parker doesn't match any of the frame grabs or the "carry on baroness" photo, so I've gotta go with Perkins (except for that one Bela on ice shot). FARO-LI WE ROLL ALONG

Edited by: HalLane at: 10/16/05 1:20 pm

TomWeaver999 (10/15/05 6:30 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------>> CLIFFHANGER: pg. 152, RADAR PATROL VS. SPY KING, full face (several inches shorter than Kirk Alyn) <<

That's the very still I was looking at in VALLEY OF THE CLIFFHANGERS. If Eddie Parker is several inches taller than Gil Perkins, and Kirk Alyn is several inches taller than Parker (as he appears in this photo), then Kirk Alyn would have to be close to seven feet tall! In other words, Parker and Perkins are the same size, around 6'.

>> pg.171, as JUNGLE JIM, 1937 <<

That's always been my favorite still in the whole book.

Digging through my files, I've found a CASTLE OF FRANKENSTEIN article on Parker by Vincent Bossone (??) Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------99 with all the same old errors, and even a new one -- it says he died in 1957, when he was actually making movies for a few years after that.

The Batman of Gotham (10/15/05 7:03 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------Quote: ------I can't believe it. After seeing GHOST a hundred times and always seeing an "obvious" stuntman in those fire scenes whenever I looked at it, these shots above make me think it was actually CHANEY HIMSELF for the first time ever! That mole on the side of the nose is indeed present! ------

It still looks like an 'obvious' stuntman to me. Jack Peirce gave us some phenomenal make-ups in these monster films.... does it somehow seem to you to be beyond his ability to affix a 'mole' on the face of a stuntman in order to make the monster in this scene consistent with Chaney's own facial appearance? I wouldn't be so quick to accept the mole as evidence that we're looking at the bonafide Chaney in the fire scene.

- GJS

Ted Newsom (10/15/05 7:05 pm)

rare lobby card ------... starring Gil "Da Bomb" Perkins and Eddie "WhoooDat?" Parker

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/15/05 7:39 pm Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------100

Ted Newsom (10/15/05 7:14 pm)

Jowl or wattle? Goiter, perhaps? ------Quote: ------...beyond his ability to affix a 'mole' on the face of a stuntman... ------

No, but it seems kinda of silly to have affixed a double- and/or triple-chin to the underside of the fella's jaw.

It's probably Curly Joe deRita. Doubling Joe Besser. Doubling Lon Chaney.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/15/05 7:15 pm

The Batman of Gotham (10/15/05 7:20 pm)

Re: Gil or Ed? ------

Nice colors.... but...... didn't Gil Perkins say Ilona Massey's negligee was blue???? But then again.... maybe you don't believe Gilbert was even there....???

- GJS

Edited by: The Batman of Gotham at: 10/15/05 7:25 pm

Ted Newsom (10/15/05 7:20 pm)

Week or weak? ------Quote: ------I only said he made $345 a week. ------

Oh, for goodness' sake! You be parsin' words like ol Bubba Clinton! The point was that he was on a weekly rate, not that he worked for 5 consecutive days, or 10, or twenty. You sil-l-l-l-leee!

A "utility stuntman" wears a belt with hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches, and a complete set of false ears, chins, noses and facial scars. Eddie Parker's famous father, Eddie Parker, Sr., made his name with a long-forgotten line of fake noses sold in better jokeshops everywhere. The son carried on a grand familiy tradition, and when he died, he willed his receding chin to the Institute of Better Stunting in Okajobee, Iowa. Little known movie fact.

(Now, just watch. 20 years from now...)

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------101

Ted Newsom (10/15/05 7:23 pm)

Re: Jowl or wattle? Goiter? Teddie or Dressing gown? ------Quote: ------...didn't Gil Perkins say Ilona Massey's negligee was blue???? ------

Et tu? Then die, Parkins...! [dies]

HalLane (10/15/05 7:26 pm)

Gil or Ed? ------Now take that still of JUNGLE JIM and put it next to page 35 of the MagicImage Filmbook where the not-yet-transformed Talbot lies strapped to the table in the exact same position as JIM going over the cliff-- and I think we have a match! And could that be Gil Perkins doing the gag as Dr. Harley...er, Mannering, in the same shot? Just asking.--- "I'll take you to the ruins now!"

Chesterbelloc (10/15/05 7:28 pm)

Re: Week or weak? ------I definitely think that it's Perkins doubling Maria Ouspenskaya in the longshots when she's driving the coach.

The Batman of Gotham (10/15/05 7:36 pm)

Re: Jowl or wattle? Goiter? Teddie or Dressing gown? ------Quote: ------TW: Getting back to you playing Frankenstein and the Wolf Man--through the years, it's always been Eddie Parker who's gotten the credit for doing the stunt-doubling in those pictures. Perkins: Well, Eddie Parker did--Eddie did some of them WITH me. When I did one of the Frankensteins, he did the Wolf Man in the same picture. But I didn't do all the Frankensteins, just a couple of them. In one of the ones where Eddie played the Wolf Man, the beautiful Hungarian actress Ilona Massey was the gal in it, and I [as the Monster] had to carry her around this basement with all this broken-down stuff in it. Alll she had on was a very pale blue, see-through negligee kind of thing and I think she had a pair of shorts, but she had no bra or anything like that. She was almost stark naked! I can remember somebody saying, "Jeez, I'd like to get this dame somewhere where I can DO somethin' with her!"--I think that was a guy named Wes Hopper, a stuntman in those days. I had to carry her around in this cellar, with all the flood waters comin' down over all the crap that was in there. ------Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------102

"A very pale blue, see-through negligee"

- GJS

Ted Newsom (10/15/05 7:41 pm)

Re: Pink or Blue? ------Check the now-color-corrected faux lobby card.

I know when I'm whupped.

The Batman of Gotham (10/15/05 7:48 pm)

Re: Week or weak? ------'Not giving you a hard time, Ted, I'm just trying to make sure that we're all on the same page and aren't mislead by any unintentional mis-information.

- GJS

Speaking personally, I like the Pink nightgown better.

Ted Newsom (10/16/05 2:29 am)

Re: Jowl or wattle? Goiter? Teddie or Dressing gown? ------Nearly 230 posts in 12 days. And not one word of politics or religion.

Any hold outs for Parker? Going once? Going twice-- ?

Well, let's relax. Now that we've seen the last of Bud Wolff, Ed Parker and Gil Perkins, there's nobody to frighten us anymore. Oh, that's too bad, I was hoping to get in on the stunt work. Who said that? Allow me to introduce myself, I'm George deNormand. Hoo-hah-hah-ha-ha! Ah-hah-hah ha-haha hah-hah!

SPLASH

georgechastain (10/16/05 4:53 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------103

I hate to be the last holdout on the Eddie Parker issue, but I'm just not completely convinced. The guy breaking free of the operating table at the climax doesn't look like the same guy carrying Ilona up the stairs to me.

I took some blurry snaps off the screen and uploaded a single shot among the Parker pictures on my same old page:

If anybody can get a clearer shot from this sequence, please do.

I can usually recognize Eddie Parker in a B-western or serial (where have we heard that before?), and this looks like him to me.

George Chastain

Edited by: georgechastain at: 10/22/05 1:20 pm

taraco (10/16/05 9:40 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------>>I'm going to get nasty letters from Eddie Parker's family, betcha by golly, jah.

Finding Eddie Parker's family would help greatly. Not that they would necessarily know either way, but it would help narrow things down.

Count me also as a faltering but stubborn holdout on believing Parker did at least some stuntwork in the film. Even though I think we ALL now agree that Gil Perkins was the primary stunt guy for FMTWM:

-- Perkins, by his own account, says he was used in the fight and Parker was the Wolf Man.

-- The visual evidence seems to indicate Perkins is the guy in the ice. Not everyone agrees on this, but I'm mostly convinced.

-- I still think, however, that there are inconsistencies -- it looks like two different monsters in some of the stills and I'm not convinced Parker didn't sometimes wear the flat top.

Still, at this point I seem to be heading for Gil Perkins as the Monster's double with some indications Parker played him as well. Maybe!

Also, on Chaney in the flames, there's a shot in the GHOST Filmbook of Chaney's face being filmed for closeups in front of gas burner flames in the foreground. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------104

I'd imagine the stuntman -- Parker? Perkins? -- is the one who gets clobbered by the falling roofbeam in that fiery climax. david Edited by: taraco at: 10/16/05 10:04 am

federal operator 99 (10/16/05 10:27 am)

Eddie Parker hallucination? ------David. I know you would like to bring this matter to closure, but I can't help thinking I see an Eddie Parker likeness in these frames from the Monster breaking loose in FMTWM (particularly the last three)...

Edited by: federal operator 99 at: 10/16/05 6:41 pm Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------105

TomWeaver999 (10/16/05 10:46 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------It's funny to think that Lugosi (who played the Monster in FMTWM) not only didn't play the role in the Monster's best and longest scene, but might not even have been there when it was filmed -- why would he be? He probably just did the closeups and went home, before or after the rest of the fight was shot.

In interviews, Paul Marco tells the story of Bela being there all night when the climax of BRIDE OF THE MONSTER was shot (the fight on the side of the hill, the rolling boulder, lying in the puddle with the "octopus") ... but all you see of Lugosi is a couple of closeups with a black background, which look to me like they could have been filmed INdoors; the rest is a double. Why the heck would Bela bother to be there?

"Interviews" -- pfffffft!!

TomWeaver999 (10/16/05 10:58 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------I hate to muddy the waters a little more, but I also have to mention something else that bugs me a little: At one point in the FMTWM fight, the Wolf Man is perched atop a pile of lab equipment and the Monster pushes it over, and the Wolf Man plummets a goodly distance toward the floor, and looks like he's going to land on his side. In my semi-slightly-quasi-educated opinion, that's not a stunt Eddie Parker would have done. By the '40s, when you see him in fights in serials, etc., he's fairly awkward, and the most you ever see him do is fall down on the floor after a punch. And it's usually a let-me-look-back-and-see-where-I'm-going, I'll-kinda-fall-down-a-little-at-a-time, I-hope-I-don't-get-hurt, tentative fall even THEN -- nowhere near as good as the falls of most of the other stuntmen. As I've mentioned a couple times already, there's even a serial (G-MEN VS. THE BLACK DRAGON) where Parker (as a butler) fights with Rod Cameron -- but at one point, when the butler has to take a fall from a stair landing, another stuntman replaces Parker -- Parker must have said, "Uhn-uh. I'm not doin' THAT." Soooooo ... that out-of-control fall from high atop all that lab equipment ... I have a hard time believing that's Parker. Republic had another stuntmen replace Parker for a single stunt in G-MEN, I have to believe it's possible that Universal did the same thing in FMTWM. Which lends credence to the "multiple stuntmen" stance. Well, Gil Perkins did tentatively attribute the "I'd like to take this dame [Ilona Massey] somewhere and DO something with her" comment to another stuntman, Wesley Hopper.

Edited by: TomWeaver999 at: 10/16/05 11:07 am

Ted Newsom (10/16/05 11:15 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------Don't forget, Paul Marco also believed the world was entirely populated with people with dog heads. By their deeds (and words) ye shall know them. I always questioned the BRIDE OF THE MONSTER anecdotes, too, since there was certainly no need to have Lugosi around for more than about a half-hour.

Hey, there seems to be a resemblance to Parker in the shots printed above, but if you've read interviews with Marco-- Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------106 or Conrad Brooks, or ol' Ed Wood himself-- there SEEMS to be a resemblance between the guy wrestling the octopus in BRIDE and the elderly Lugosi. And when you wake up, you find that you've swallowed your pillow. If you don't listen too carefully, then Bela DOES say, "Don't be afraid of Lobo. He's as harmless as kitchen!" In fact, I wrote that as a quote in my first nationally-published piece (OUI Magazine, 1978), having cribbed it from GOLDEN TURKEY AWARDS. Except that isn't what he says. If you read Jeff Rovin's SCI-FI ENCYCLOPEDIA, in which his pull-quotes crib my stuff (sans credit!), Lugosi says it again-- but he doesn't. And you won't find a reference to him muffing that line prior to GOLDEN TURKEY. Like wildfire, boys, like wildfire.

Gil Perkins and Ed Parker resembled each other; ref.: photos, above; Ee-gore's site; Taraco's observation, above; common sense. They were the same height, they had roughly the same coloration, they were about the same age, they had the same color eyes. That's making this very difficult.

Perkins had a cleft dimple in the middle of his chin; Parker had a much smaller indentation at the base of his (slightly receding) chin which is often simply not there because of the plasticity of the face and the minor nature of the indentation. Perkins had a noticable verticle crease on the left-hand side of his face proximatal to the naso-labial fold (the line we all have leading from the nostril down to the edge of the mouth.) This crease, like all "character lines," is less noticable when his face is relaxed or reclining, moreso when the face is contorting; it also became more noticable as Perkins aged (just a fact of life. We all get 'em, they all get deeper.) Parker's face has neither of these attributes.

Parkins? Perker? Check out the frames again and you'll see the two things on that Monster that ol' Eddie doesn't have.... and I don't mean electrodes.

Funny about Weaver's Parker-Spotting. Haven't we read over the years that Ed Parker was an "expert jump gag guy" and THAT'S why he did the Wolf Man gags? Not that I doubt Tom at all; quite the antithesis. Just shows how these rumors become fact by repetition.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/16/05 11:26 am

PShields79 (10/16/05 11:33 am)

It's Chaney ------"Ahhh, I knew ol' Bela couldn't'a busted off that table, so I told Roy I'd put on the makeup and do it."

I suddenly remembered this quote from...uhhh...well, I'm sure I heard it somewhere!

TomWeaver999 (10/16/05 11:46 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------<< Haven't we read over the years that Ed Parker was an "expert jump gag guy" and THAT'S why he did the Wolf Man gags? <<

Well, maybe he WAS in the 1930s (or whenever he started), in movies I've never seen and don't know about. But looking at '40s movies, you realize that this guy couldn't jump to a conclusion without breakin' his hip. By the '50s they were still CALLING him a "stuntman" but to the best of my limited knowledge, by then all he was doing was wearing monster makeups and waving his arms over his head a little (A&C MEET J&H, A&C MEET THE Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------107

MUMMY, TARANTULA, MOLE PEOPLE, etc.). Your grandmother could have done every bit of that stuff. taraco (10/16/05 11:52 am)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------>>David. I know you would like to bring this matter to closure, but I can't help thinking I see an Eddie Parker likeness in these frames from the Monster breaking loose in FMTWM (particularly the last two)...

I'm not sure we'll ever have closure, but we may be getting closer to a version of what might have happened.

Those stills, FedOp, back up my nagging questions that the Monster indeed doesn't look the same in all shots.

The problem with that theory -- one day Perkins did it, another day Parker did it -- is that I'd think something like that (two guys doubling for the Monster), would be remarkable even by 40's stunt standards and folks woulda talked about it more.

It may all be coming down to, as Ted notes, the chin dimple, but even then I see a dimple with Parker, too. Not as much as Perkins, though... david Edited by: taraco at: 10/16/05 11:54 am

Jacks Garage (10/16/05 12:07 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------Quote: ------"I'd like to take this dame [Ilona Massey] somewhere and DO something with her" comment to another stuntman, Wesley Hopper. ------

OK, ain't found the Lilley interview book yet, so I'll retract my previous post-way back when-til I can back it up with something. As for the above quote-anyone got a pic of Hopper?

TomWeaver999 (10/16/05 12:13 pm)

The Tiger Woman ------By the way, anybody who wants a crash course in Parker-spotting should get a-hold of the 1944 serial THE TIGER WOMAN. All this Parker talk put me in the mood to watch a couple chapters, so I popped in my Tape 2 and started with Chapter 7, where Parker was seen as a trooper. He returned as the Trooper in Chapter 8. In Chapter 9, he's a baddie called Gherkin and is involved in a big four-way fight, but (except for wrestling around and taking a few punches) his big contribution is getting monkey-flipped. Okay, maybe your grandmother couldn't have done that, but certainly your mom; the other stuntmen in the scene are going full-tilt. Gherkin is killed but in the next chapter Parker is back as Travis, another bad guy in a FIVE-way fight -- but as the other stuntmen go all-out again, he grabs Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------108

Tiger Woman Linda Stirling and struggles with her the whole time -- they look like they're dancing. At one point he falls on a bed and starts kicking at people from there. Eddie Parker must have been well-liked, it must have been nice having him around, because IMHO he contributed very little excitement-wise to the action scenes I've seen him in.

georgechastain (10/16/05 12:15 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) .. . ------Ted -- RE: the two things the monster has that Eddie doesn't (I'm assuming you meant the two things you discussed in the previous paragraph -- the chin dimple/cleft and the deep crease down the side of his face that are obvious on Gil Perkins even when he's relaxed)...

I think both of these attributes are plainly visible in one or more of the photos of Parker on my webpage, which I why I'm having trouble believing that Gil did it all. And like I said before, the shots of the guy breaking away from the lab table look enough like Parker to me, in spite of the makeup, that I would easily believe it was him if I'd ever taken the trouble to look so closely before... unlike any of the other stunt double shots I've seen so far -- some of which really don't look like EITHER Parker or Perkins to me, though they do rather resemble Lon Jr.!

It seems very likely to me that old disreputable Bart Andrews, who no doubt was a serial and B-western fan if he hung out with Don Glut, could easily have thought it was Parker on that lab table too, and just assumed it was him in all the other scenes because that's sort of logical... just like many of us are doing now with Perkins.

And it's E-gor (or George), please, not Ee-gore, Eeyore, Ygor, Igor, nor Methuselah. A poor thing but mine own, a facetious pun I hide behind for my web sites and artwork. I thought it was simple enough that it would be hard to get wrong, but I was mistaken -- nobody ever gets it right!

No huge deal but I want to nip any misinformation in the bud!

George

TomWeaver999 (10/16/05 12:20 pm)

Gil again ------THIS, I think, will lead nowhere, but I have a memory of perusing an issue of SCARY MONSTERS at a newsstand maybe eight (ten?) years ago, and there was either a very long letter, or a one-page article, about Perkins, concentrating on FMTWM and TEENAGE MONSTER, written by a fellow (reader Jack Gourlay) who'd spoken with him. There may be another useful tidbit or two in there; I didn't buy the issue. My memory is that it was right up front, in the first six, eight, ten pages. Another vague memory: It prompted a Don Glut letter in the NEXT issue about the history of Monster stuntmen (another ish I don't have).

Edited by: TomWeaver999 at: 10/16/05 12:35 pm Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------109

Joe Karlosi (10/16/05 12:23 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------Ted may get mad at me at this point, but now even I'm starting to think there could have been two different stuntmen wearing the monster makeup here and there, for whatever the reasons!

Since Perkins told us about when and where he subbed for the monster and what he though of Ilona, I'll take him at his word. I'd believe he played the monster in the fight sequence, and probably was the guy in the ice (due to the dimple and the wrinkle).

However, I also think the monster looks differently from shot to shot. Therein lies the rub. ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

HalLane (10/16/05 12:59 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------The above shots of the monster breaking free clearly show what I mentioned earlier: Parker's presumably broken nose, "dressed to the right" as it were, as he appears in the MASKED MARVEL; I'm looking at that still right now, and it's identical. That, coupled with the thick lower lip, receding chin and cleft (emphasized by the extreme side-lighting) pretty much seals the deal for me. -- "...THERE'LL BE NO MUSIC IN THE TOMB...."

Edited by: HalLane at: 10/18/05 3:00 pm

HalLane (10/16/05 1:12 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------By the way, if Gil Perkins remembers carrying Ilona Massey, wouldn't that have to have been in the famous still? The shot in the "lobby card" above, just before she takes a long drop to the floor, is surely a "stunt baroness" .

federal operator 99 (10/16/05 1:39 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------Here's a frame I found online of Gil Perkins as the decidedly long-in-the-tooth "Teenage Monster" (or "Meteor Monster")... Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------110

I'm sorry, but I can't help thinking this guy has a straighter, sharper nose (much less crooked or bulbous) than the FMTWM "breaking-loose" monster -- not to mention the nostrils that are considerably less prominent than the "monster-in-ice" (although, admittedly, that situation is acerbated by the the backwards tilt of his head).

Ted Newsom (10/16/05 1:52 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------How about...

"Despite repeated attribution to western bit player Edwin "Eddie" Parker, it was Australian-born stunt man Gilbert "Gil" Perkins who doubled Lugosi in most (or all) of the strenuous physical scenes in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN. Parker apparently doubled Lon Chaney's Wolf Man character during some or all of the fight scenes in the climax of the film. There is some indication that Parker may have donned the Monster make-up for one shot, that of the Monster breaking free from the operating table."

taraco (10/16/05 2:01 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------That's not bad, Ted, although I'm not sure we should limit Parker to 'one shot.' But methinks something like that is where we're at, short of some smoking gun showing Pierce making up Eddie Parker as the Monster while Perkins, laughing in a western outfit from another set, looks on!

Ted Newsom (10/16/05 2:02 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) .. . ------Quote: ------By the way, if Gil Perkins remembers carrying Ilona Massey, wouldn't that have to have been in the famous still? The shot in the "lobby card" above, just before she takes a long drop to the floor, is surely a "stunt baroness" . ------

Y'know, Hal, you're absolutely right, and I think you've just answered the question. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------111

It is EXTREMELY unlikely that they'd drop Ms. Hajmassey on her elegant ass, even three or four feet down onto a mattress. Got to be a double. Which means the woman in that shot in the film is not Ilona Massey.

The still/lobby card shot appears to be the real Ilona.

Perkins specifically recalls carrying Massey, not her double.

The only recorded images of the Monster and the Real Ilona are a) the famous Un-Bela still, and b) the shot in the movie in which the Monster grabs her and carries her off.

Which narrows the arc even further.

It means Perkins is the one in the movie.

This leaves only the possibility that for one lone pick-up shot, the Monster breaking through the straps, Ed Parker MAY have been in the make-up. Considering the apparent lack of physical ability noted above, I wonder why they'd choose him and not Maria Ouspenskya, who was not working that day.

Jacks Garage (10/16/05 2:27 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) .. . ------thanks Ted, but He has neither the full lower lip not the bulbus nose either (not to mention the cleft chin, cheek wrinkle, ear thingy,nor s-shaped spine). And the green probably wouldn't film well in black & white. Guess he can be eliminated as an additional suspect...

taraco (10/16/05 2:31 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------What about the kicking-barrels-off-the-wagon scene? Does anyone have stills or screen grabs there?

I've read it could be a stuntman or even Lugosi doing that!

'Kick der barrel!' david

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------112 blackbiped (10/16/05 2:51 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------Quote: ------Don't forget, Paul Marco also believed the world was entirely populated with people with dog heads ------

Which has yet to be conclusively disproven, I must add.

The TEENAGE CAVEMAN still above looks like the same guy who grabs Ilona from behind with that grimace (and the guy in the ice). But the last still of the Monster getting off the table looks a heck of a lot like Parker.

Geez, who would've ever thought the unassuming FMTWM would turn out to be such an ever-widening abyss of mystery? The patchwork nature that has always characterized this film seems to extend even farther than previously imagined. Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

Ted Newsom (10/16/05 2:53 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------Roy Barcroft was Hollywood's best-known barrel-kickers. It has become legend how he once saved the life of billionaire Howard Hughes, who then guided Barcroft into a 40 year career. In 1934, Hughes had mortgaged everything he owned to buy Trans World Airlines. Depressed, the soon-to-be-reclusive billionaire accidentally locked himself in his wine cellar (Hughes, a life-long teetotaler, kept a few thousand bottles of wine around for those intimate Saturday night parties). Luckily the hefty young Barcroft had chosen that night to begin his career as a cat burglar, Having heard a rumor from professional stuntman Bart Andrews that Hughes often adopted stray pussies from around town, the hapless "Grizzley Raffles" chose the aviator's home as his first target. The muscular Barcroft kicked a wine barrel out of the way, freed Hughes from an Amontillado-style premature burial. Hughes admired Barcroft's method of barrel-kicking a great deal ,but his abhorrence for alcoholics (as his father had been) infuriated him,as Barcroft began lapping up the wine like a big fat cat. Insanely angry but grateful, Hughes ordered Barcroft banished to Republic Studios for the next 30 years. Barcroft's last known appearance was as the bartender in BILLY THE KID MEETS DRACULA, with a symbolic wine barrel in the background. (Barcroft also co-starred with Professional Stuntman Bart Andrews in a SUPERMAN movie in the early 1960s, which is known to run at least 3 minutes.)

Among Barcroft's better-known barrel-kicking: PRISONER OF ZENDA (1936 and the 1952 remake), the Fox musical ROLL OUT THE BARREL (1937), the 3 Stooges short BARREL-KICKING BARREL KICKERS (1944),and FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN (1943), doubling the real "Monster" star, Bela "Eddie" Perkins.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/16/05 3:25 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------113 federal operator 99 (10/16/05 3:24 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) .. . ------I have been studiously analyzing the individual frames of the climactic monster battle in FMTWM, and I'm thinking I'm seeing two different stunt doubles for Frankenstein (or, at least, two distinctively different monster make-ups!), during their confrontation!

First off, here's the Monster when he's first been knocked on his keister by a Wolf Man lunge:

For my money, this stunt man is the same guy who earlier grabbed Ilona (but not necessarily the one that eventually hoisted her stand-in!): But here's where I think a Frankenstein stuntman switch was made. After a cut to the lit fuse of dynamite, Frankenstein retaliates by tossing the Wolf Man into a table. The Monster here has a much more pronounced brow-ridge, a la Glenn Strange in A&CMF (or perhaps even Herman Munster!):

To me, this double resembles the guy who hoists the Ilona doppelganger in Ted's awesomely colorized lobby!

And so I think I'm seeing double -- that is, two different stunt doubles playing the Monster! Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------114

Or Jack Pierce was wildly inconsistent with his make-up applications...

blackbiped (10/16/05 3:32 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------Great catch, fedop. To me, the first guy looks like Perkins, and the second one looks like Parker. Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

Ted Newsom (10/16/05 3:35 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------Dammn yer eyes. Just when I thought I had everybody hoodwinked.

Yeah, it DOES look different shot to shot, and I agree, there's a Strange thing about the guy carrying the dame (and holding the Wolf Stunt Man with outstretched stiff arms) which does NOT appear to be exactly the same face as the Rasslin' Monster.

Part of a possible explanation--maybe (oh, come along with me into sheer speculation territory)-- MAYBE Pierce Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------115 himself applied the make-up in the Strange Case of the Close-Fingered Monster; and maybe his assistant (whomever it was at the time) did the make-upon RubberFace Rassler.

Could all be fantasy, though. Trick o' the light, mass hysteria, swamp gas.

FeOp, if you've got the time and interest, I'd love to see a frame grab from GHOST with Chaney in the doorway of the chateau receiving room, right after (or before?) he walks in with the little girl. To quote Police Sgt. Pat Patton in the RKO Dick Tracy feature (1946), "He's weird. If I didn't know better, I'd swear we were dealin' with Boris Karloff!" (I KNOW t'ain't Boris in the movie, but I'm tellin' ya...)

TomWeaver999 (10/16/05 3:36 pm)

A few more random observations... ------... as this thread threatens to run from here to eternity.

I can't make myself believe it's Lugosi in the wagon, kicking at the barrels. I'm sure they could have harnessed Lugosi on board somehow, making it impossible for him to fall off, but ... hey, if they weren't going to risk having him do the step-off-the-operating-table "stunt," they weren't gonna have him ride the wagon. I bet it's not Chaney driving, either, based on the way the shot starts the split-second AFTER the last opportunity to see the driver's face.

I love how the village men, out of their minds with fear and panic 10 seconds earlier, are now so eager to catch up with the wagon and get their hands on the Monster.

I bet it's not Massey and Knowles standing next to the lab equipment when it blows up. In fact, I bet it's also stand-ins or dummies on the operating tables for Lugosi and Chaney as those big old 12x12 (or whatever) beams are dropping into the room. One lands on end and looks like it's going to fall in the direction of the Monster until it gets caught up in some hanging cables.

I'm afraid that I have to say that the sour-looking Monster, stepping off of the operating table, sure looks to me like it might be Eddie Parker.

It sure IS Gil Perkins when the Monster grabs Massey for the first time (IMHO) and you know how I can tell? He makes a face that Perkins made in the heat of action all the time. The lower lip comes up over the top lip, practically to the nose -- Perkins did that, no doubt unconsciously, in a lot of action scenes. Just for laughs, I put on a chapter of CAPTAIN AMERICA in which Perkins is fistfighting with Captain America, and he does it twice -- once while trying to pull a gun out of a too-tight pocket, and again when he's picking up a chair (or something) to throw.

Final random thought: The Monster never looked worse than when he pushes the Wolf Man away for the last time. It's a goofy, spastic move, he spins too far after pushing him, and when he finally straightens up, the Monster's face never looked fatter or goofier, and the end of his right sleeve is up around his elbow. What a geek!

TomWeaver999 (10/16/05 3:47 pm)

Perkins ------Perkins DID say specifically that he was the Monster when the water came crashing down into the room, so unless Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------116 they shot that scene twice, with somebody else playing the Monster the other time, then that's Perkins no matter what the makeup looks like. And, yes, the Monster's face does have two distinctly different "looks" during the fight. Well, THREE counting the insert closeup shots of Bela.

Joe Karlosi (10/16/05 4:08 pm)

Re: Who played the Monster (film by film) ... ------I'm now convinced beyond doubt that there were TWO different doubles for the monster, for whatever the reasons.

How does this sound:

1.) Perkins is the monster in the ice, and the one who grabs at Ilona Massey. He's also the fella who tumbles down the stairs with the Wolf Man. He is the monster who gets drowned in mid-fight. When we watch Perkins, his face is more grimaced and he moves more athetically.

2.) In the shot where the monster hoists Ilona and turns, it is another stuntman (Eddie Parker?) This is the same double who walks slowly to the top of the staircase carrying Ilona's stuntperson (in the Lobbycard), and gets tackled by the Wolf Man from behind. In some shots during the battle with the werewolf, this person (Parker?) flings the Wolf Man about with stiff, outstretched arms. He's got a less animated face, more solemn-looking, with the protruding brow (like "Herman Munster").

But if it is Parker in some of those fight shots, who is playing the Wolf Man? ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Edited by: Joe Karlosi at: 10/16/05 4:11 pm

TomWeaver999 (10/16/05 4:26 pm)

Re: Perkins ------<< But if it is Parker in some of those fight shots, who is playing the Wolf Man? <<

Except for that out-of-control fall off the top of the stack of machines, I don't know that there's very much in the fight Wolf Man-wise that Chaney couldn't have done. Universal let Chaney and Broderick Crawford tear into each other in the climactic fight in NORTH TO THE KLONDIKE (1942), and the stunts in that fight were hairier than anything in FMTWM. Maybe Universal let Chaney do a few of his own Wolf Man "stunts."

By the way, Chaney Jr. claimed in later years that he played both the Wolf Man AND the Monster in FMTWM, so even if he was still around, I doubt that he'd be very much help here!

Tom "The Wolf Man stunts? That was me. AND the Monster's. Well, I was the Monster throughout. Oh, and remember the little old gypsy woman? ...Yup. Me again. My old man had nuthin' on me!"

taraco Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------117

(10/16/05 4:53 pm)

Article... ------Yes, this would make a fine piece, once we sort it out. Even if inconclusive. But I'd like to find some Eddie Parker relatives. That would be really interesting!

I'd say we should begin to be moving on from MEETS, but not before we pin down the cart/barrel scene. If anyone has stills or frame grabs, it would be great! david

georgechastain (10/16/05 5:13 pm)

Re: Gil again ------Tom Weaver and other Gil-men --

RE: the letter from Jack Gourlay about Gil Perkins in SCARY MONSTERS, and Don Glut's followup about the history of monster stuntmen...

You remembered correctly except that Jack's letter was in response to an EARLIER letter from Don Glut.

Jack Gourlay's letter is in in SM #21 (Dec 1996); here's the whole thing (including his nice comment about a Weaver book):

Dear Dennis - Enjoyed reading Don Glut's lengthy letter in SM #19 dispelling some previously printed rumors about stuntmen subbing in creature costumes. By coincidence I recently spoke with 89-year-old, Australian-born Gil Perkins -- self-proclaimed "oldest living stuntman." He briefly discussed his two or three day stint filling in for Bela Lugosi as Frankenstein's monster during the fight sequence of "Frankenstein Meets the Wolfman." Eddie Parker ("A nice guy and good stuntman-but he couldn't do high falls") replaced Lon Chaney as the Wolfman during this "beast battle of the century" and their unscripted moves were worked out between the two of them and approved by director Roy William Neill. Perkins considered make-up genius Jack Pierce to be "a know-it-all -- pretty arrogant" and added that "it took longer to make me up then to do the actual work. Three hours in the chair." Perkins was made-up by Pierce 15 years later as the imbecilic hairy giant in "Teenage Monster" which he described as "horror for kids" with a budget of $54,000. By then (1957), Jack Pierce was free-lancing and "more pliable" of personality. On the discomfort scale, this particular creation "wasn't too bad" and then Perkins made a reference to Karloff's "Son of Frankenstein" double when he said, "Bud Wolfe used to complain about wearing make-up but somebody said about me, "Perkins will put @#$% on his face as long as they pay him." Incidentally, Tom Weaver's latest interview book from McFarland, "It Came from Weaver Five" contains a lengthy chat with Gil Perkins. Required reading for horror fans, because during a 50-year career spanning over 1,000 films he also performed in greats like "King Kong" and "The Invisible Man." Enclosed is a photo of the Perkins monster carrying Ilona Massey and the autograph that he sent to me. JACK GOURLAY Lincoln, NE

The photo Jack mentions is the famous one... but there's no evidence here that Gil actually saw it or confirmed that it's him in the picture. It's also not clear that Gil actually confirmed that Bud Wolfe doubled Karloff, or that Jack Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------118 assumed that when he mentioned Wolfe. Maybe someone can contact Gourlay?

Don Glut's letter is more than a page of tiny type so I won't transcribe it, but it is a great read. Don was responding to the "excellent" Creature from the Black Lagoon coverage in SM #18, and manfully taking the rap for initiating some misinformation about certain monster doubling, including Clint Eastwood as the Gill-Man and Eddie Parker as the Metaluna Mutant and Lugosi's double in Bride of the Monster. I didn't think there's any need to belabor the letter, as Don has spoken for himself here recently, and some of the views he expressed in the letter may have changed. He did mention that he knows Bud Wolfe doubled Karloff in SoF, and that Dale Van Sickel confirmed to him that he did the HELLZAPOPPIN' bit... that Eddie Parker is CLEARLY identifiable as Lugosi's double in FMtWM (throughout the film)... and that Parker MAY be Chaney's double in GoF.

Dennis Druktenis immediately followed Jack Gourlay's letter with a blurb about a forthcoming interview with Gil Perkins conducted by Paul Parla, which appeared as he promised in the 1997 Scary Monsters Yearbook, Monster Memories #5. The 4-page article focused on TEENAGE MONSTER, and is illustrated with several autographed stills of Perkins in the Pierce makeup from that films, and a photo of the elderly Perkins with Donna and Paul Parla. The article has only a very brief discussion of Perkins' film background, and no mention of any other monster roles at all! What a shame -- or maybe Paul is saving THAT for another time? Can someone contact HIM?

Incidentally, I bought the best of the autographed pictures of Gil Perkins as the Teenage Monster that appeared in Parla's article, very cheap, from a dealer at a moster con. If another view of Perkins in the hairy getup would be helpful, I'll scan it.

Eeyore

taraco (10/16/05 5:17 pm)

Re: Gil again ------That's excellent info, E-Gor!!

Thanx much for taking the time...Contacting Paul Parla seems a logical next step, and we'll try unless someone has a direct line to him It's amazing how much information IS out there, so to speak... david

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------119

Bill Warren (10/16/05 6:01 pm)

Re: Article... ------I wonder if the fight scene didn't turn out too well, and was then re-shot?

taraco (10/16/05 6:13 pm)

Re: Article... ------Could be. Even now, the fight scene is pretty short and underwhelming.

TomWeaver999 (10/16/05 6:16 pm)

Re: Gil again ------<< Jack Gourlay's letter is in in SM #21 (Dec 1996); here's the whole thing <<

Thanks!!

Ted Newsom (10/16/05 6:17 pm)

Re: Gil again ------I wouldn't hope for too much from Paul Parla. His idea of an incisive interview question seems to be, "So, what movies were you in?"

Ted Newsom (10/16/05 6:25 pm)

Strange Days ------I don't buy Parker as the guy carrying Ilona or her clone, either. The frame grab close-up of the monster just doesn't match with our profile shot of Parker.

(Note also that the Baroness in the still seems to have a different gown on, or at least some kind of filmy, patterned over-blouse or something, hanging down, which the double doesn't have.)

Got an explanation for the reason certain monster shots look like Glenn Strange. They called Glenn Strange for the reshoots, and were so happy about it, they said, "Look, bub, keep all this on the QT, y'know, so's nobody knows about all this flimflam, and don't get aswelled head or nothin,' but the front office REALLY likes you. You're gonna be in the next monster movie. And, boy, it's gonna make you a really big star! Trust me, boobie!"

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------120 federal operator 99 (10/16/05 6:34 pm)

Re: Over a barrel with Gil and Eddie ------Here are the clearest images of the Monster from the barrel wagon scenes in FMTWM that I could grab and process on the fly. I'm afraid there's nothing too revelatory here, the first frame affording the best glimpse of the monster double (just before he went barrel lobbing): Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------121

And, Ted, is this the "Karloffian" resemblance you referred to in Ghost of Frankenstein? (I'm not sure I'm accurately recalling your scene reference; Chaney looks very "Son of Frankenstein-ian" in this shot, I think)...

Edited by: federal operator 99 at: 10/16/05 6:36 pm

taraco (10/16/05 6:42 pm)

Re: Over a barrel with Gil and Eddie ------Great pics, FedOp. Thanx!

It's for sure not Lugosi up there!

Ted Newsom (10/16/05 6:44 pm)

Son of Son of Frankenstein ------Exactly! Great catch!

Now if one were to have cropped that photo and eliminated the girl & ol' Cedric, I'd say most people would say it's Karloff. Point being, the angle on a face can really make things look different. Compare this to the "Tell Me About the Rabbits, George" shot, and the fiery wattles and jowls that come after it (p9 or 10 of this continuing saga). It does not even appear to be the same guy--one gaunt, one jowly. But we know it is.

Just a little something to add to the confusion. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------122

Also-- I can't see the wine barrels. "Bohmer!!! You played a trick!!! What good is wine without eyes to see?!?!"

taraco (10/16/05 7:47 pm)

Re: Over a barrel with Gil and Eddie ------So I hesitate to ask, but, who do we think that is throwing the barrels?

It has the look of the Monster early in the fight, therefore I'd say Perkins. But the nose now seems non-bulbous and more like Parker's nose.

Ted Newsom (10/16/05 8:06 pm)

Re: Where we be at ------With apologies to Dr. Gangrene, who seems to have gone off and gotten a life, I'll use his format to try to re-sum things up:

FRANKENSTEIN (1931) Universal Bela Lugosi (lost screen test; no footage included in film) Boris Karloff

BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN (1935) Universal Boris Karloff George DeNormand (stuntman): Brief scenes may have included 'rescue' of shepherd girl; monster lifted on pole in long shot during 'crucifixion'; carrying Elizabeth in abduction (long shot); possibly castle explosion. Boris Karloff (footage from FRANKENSTEIN)

TWO HEARTS IN WAX TIME (1935) MGM - 1 reel color musical Frank Hayes* [billed as "Frank the Mannequin"]; simulcrum of BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN make-up & costume; The Monster Sings!

ONE IN A MILLION (1936) 20th/Fox - feature musical Al Ritz; song & dance sketch on skates;simulcrum of FRANKENSTEIN make-up and costume. The Monster dances and makes funny (?) faces! Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------123

SON OF FRANKENSTEIN (1939) Universal Boris Karloff Bud Wolfe (stuntman): Stand-in for fall into sulphur pit.

THIRD DIMENSIONAL MURDER (1941) MGM 1 reel Ed Payson (simulcrum of SON OF FRANKENSTEIN make-up and costume)

HELLZAPOPPIN' (1941) Universal- feature comedy Dale Van Sickel (wire gag in theater, throwing woman onto stage)

CELEBRITY BASEBALL NEWSREEL (1942) Boris Karloff

GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1942) Universal Lon Chaney Boris Karloff (archive footage from FRANKENSTEIN) Eddie Parker*: possibly stunt double for scene on village bridge; breaking down door, gas attack; fire climax. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------124

FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLFMAN (1943) Universal Bela Lugosi Gil Perkins (stunt double) Eddie Parker*: possibly doubled Lugosi in certain shots in climatic fight.

[and if I may be so bold...]

HOUSE OF FRANKENSTEIN (1944) Universal Glenn Strange Dummy (Monster frozen in ice; Monster electrified on lab table)

HOUSE OF DRACULA (1945) Glenn Strange Boris Karloff (footage from BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) Lon Chaney (footage from GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN fire scene) Eddie Parker*(footage from GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN fire scene) *unverified

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/16/05 11:06 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------125

Ted Newsom (10/16/05 11:14 pm)

Karloff Comes Home ------That baseball game pic that I've looked so hard to find... Buster does a backfall, Karloff stomps to home plate

georgechastain (10/16/05 11:23 pm)

Re: Gil again (and Paul Parla's autograph collecting) ------Personally I'm VERY happy that Paul Parla tracked down so many interesting people I had no idea how to contact and scored a bunch of signed photos from them. When I was in touch with him personally I couldn't afford anything he was offering -- but suddenly two reputable autograph dealers I bought from had a bunch of absolutely wonderful stuff from his collection, and they were both letting some of it go for far less than I thought it should be worth -- so I scored a bunch of terrific signed photos for a price I could easily afford, including the Gil Perkins TEENAGE MONSTER picture I mentioned last time.

Strange, isn't it? Each man's life touches so many other lives.

E-gor

Ted Newsom (10/16/05 11:31 pm)

Re: Where we be at ------I can only speak from my experience. I find Paul & Paula (is that her name?) Parla's interviews very superficial. They have never treated me unkindly, nor I them. They did, however, cozy up to my old friend Steve Calvert and apparently shined his ego at the end of his life. He was tickled anyone cared about his work (as a gorilla, robot, general stunt man, etc.). This ego-boost was not without cost. Because he thought they were so nice, he signed hundreds of stills for them, naturally at no money for himself. And after he died, they started hawking them for 20 or 30 bucks a pop... along with the hundreds (1000's?) of other stills they'd gotten from other "old friends." His son felt the same way about them as I did, that his father had been used. Perhaps the Parlas do not feel that way.

georgechastain (10/17/05 12:02 am)

Re: Where we be at ------This is really embarrassing, Ted, but one of the dozen or so items I got that came from Paul (and Donna) Parla indirectly was a signed photo of Steve Calvert! If I had ever had the opportunity to obtain one from Mr. Calvert Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------126 directly, or if I had been able to write to him when he was alive, I would certainly have preferred to get it that way. But I'm grateful to the Parlas for making the acquisition possible for me at all. That said, the only time I communicated with Paul directly, he wanted BOTH of my treasured issues of MONSTERS AND THINGS (the first monsterzines I ever owned) for a single autograph (though it was a good one), so I passed. Nonetheless, I think the Calvert photo will be put to good use very soon (and shared with other gorilla suit fans) on a website devoted to such matters currently being constructed by a friend of mine. And we're both in touch with Bob Burns for spiritual guidance!

On another on-trail topic. The photo you just posted that's identified as Gil Perkins from FMtWM (the same face used on your very cool imagi-lobby) has the face Federal Operator 99 thought was the "other guy," and I do too. Though there are plenty of sequences in the climactic fight that I think ARE the angular Gil Perkins, this full-lipped, round-faced character looks more like Ed Parker to me... and since he almost immediately drops the stuntgal he's carrying, which CAN'T be Ilona Massey as we've already discussed, I think it's possible. The guy that grabs Ilona DOESN"T look like Ed to me, but the guy who carries her up the stairs does. I certainly could be wrong, but I often recognize actors by the contour of the back of their head in old movies... years of figure drawing, no doubt.

George Chastain

TomWeaver999 (10/17/05 12:59 am)

Re: Gil again (and Paul Parla's autograph collecting) ------<< I often recognize actors by the contour of the back of their head in old movie <<

Oh, how funny -- sometimes I see somebody from the back in an old movie and the thought "Oh, that's looks like ______" jumps into my head -- and then I stop and think, "I must be crazy." Then the person turns around, and sometimes I'm right.

If/when you get a chance (and feel like pissing away five minutes of your life), look at the back of the head of the wagon driver in FMTWM and tell me who you think it is. Believe it or not, I have an opinion!

Ted Newsom (10/17/05 5:18 am)

Re: Where we be at ------Bart Andrews!

That said, I don't want my feelings about the Parlas to sound libelous. Perhaps from their perspective they are doing a service, or helping fans, or making long-forgotten movie players a little happier in their old age. I cannot read their motivations. But I'm reminded of Bogart's line to Lorre in Casablanca. "For a price, Ugarte. For a price."

Parker? Perkins? I don't think it's Big (or rather, Normal Size) Eddie at all, so choosing one of the stills as Parker was kinda arbitrary. Parker-- as this rather poor sketch artist and ex private investigator noted repeatedly-- has a very minor chin cleft, and that, below the base of his chin, not smack dab inna middle-- like Perkins. Both of the shots of the Monster do, even the apparently chubby-faced guy who's breaking the straps.

Given the deceptive dissimilarity between the Chaney photo with the little girl and the Chaney blow-up cringing Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------127 from the fire, I'm still in the Perkins camp.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/17/05 5:29 am

georgechastain (10/17/05 8:14 am)

Wagon-driving Chaney double in FMTWM ------Tom -- Boy, you really flung the gauntlet! I pissed away about an hour looking through the whole movie again to make sure there might not be another wagon scene somewhere you might be talking about, and finally came back to the barrel wagon scene and took a slo-mo browse through that several times. Not much to go on -- an experienced team handler and whip man with a burly build similar to Chaney's and a healthy head of hair.

Edmund Cobb?

George Chastain

TomWeaver999 (10/17/05 11:09 am)

Re: Where we be at ------<< Boy, you really flung the gauntlet! Not much to go on -- an experienced team handler and whip man with a burly build similar to Chaney's and a healthy head of hair. <<

To me, the back of the head screamed Dave Sharpe -- wearing a padded coat or something so that his smaller size wouldn't be noticed. I just thought it was so funny, that an hour after me looking at that FMTWM scene and thinking "That looks like the back of Dave Sharpe's head," you post about getting a feeling who some actor is by the back of their head.

Next time I look at it, I'll picture Edmund Cobb's head and see what happens -- thanks! : )

Dr Gangrene (10/17/05 11:53 am)

Re: Wagon-driving Chaney double in FMTWM ------This is one of the most interesting threads I've ever read on theses boards. I just love FMTWM - great movie. No matter how many guys played the monster in it, it's still fun.

I am one who thinks, after looking at those shots, that yeah, the fight scene could have been shot twice, after the film was looked at, to cover some problem that arose. In those days they had no idea what they'd gotten int he can till the film got developed - maybe they took a look at it, didn't lie something and just had to order a reshoot, and perkins wasn't available that day, booked up on another picture.

Makes sense to me. Sure looks like 2 totally different guys. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------128

So Dave, where are we on all this? Are we through with FMTW?

georgechastain (10/17/05 12:31 pm)

Re: Where we be at (Wagon-driving Chaney double) ------Quote: ------To me, the back of the head screamed Dave Sharpe -- wearing a padded coat or something so that his smaller size wouldn't be noticed. I just thought it was so funny, that an hour after me looking at that FMTWM scene and thinking "That looks like the back of Dave Sharpe's head," you post about getting a feeling who some actor is by the back of their head. ------

Now that you mention it, I can see that big Gossamer-like head of hair being Dave Sharpe's, but I honestly didn't recognize anybody's noggin this time... just a guess based on Cobb's frequent wagon-driving roles (up to AIP's TALES OF TERROR). Coulda been Andy Devine too, I guess, but that seemed far less likely. Almost certainly any of the stuntmen who did lots of westerns (including Perkins and Parker) should have mastered the requirements. But you're right, tho Dave was small (5'8"), anybody could have been padded or built up or even wigged for the part -- as long as they could handle driving a wagon that fast, no simple task.

It might be easy to see if it was POSSIBLE that Dave drove the wagon. He was doing stunts and/or acting roles for Universal (and Republic and Monogram and RKO, etc.) in the early 40's, but he joined the Army sometime in 1942, so the timing might tell.

George Chastain

TomWeaver999 (10/17/05 1:58 pm)

Re: Wagon-driving Chaney double in FMTWM ------<< Cobb's frequent wagon-driving roles (up to AIP's TALES OF TERROR). <<

And HOUSE OF FRANKENSTEIN, as I'm sure you know.

georgechastain (10/17/05 2:59 pm)

Who's THIS guy? ------Oh CRAP! In my ineptitude I posted the following as the first note in a brand new topic instead of a new thread here. If somebody can correct that, please do, or tell me how to if possible... but meanwhile I'm trying again here. (There's already a response in the new topic suggesting it's Dale Van Sickel, so maybe it's OK after all...)

Here's the repost: Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------129

I won this 8x10 of an unidentified Universal Frankenstein on eBay a while back -- I'd swear I've seen it somewhere but I have no idea where. Anybody recognize this guy? If the image comes out too small, the small print says "Copyright 1941, Universal Picture Co., Inc."

Sorry I didn't scan and post it sooner, but I just rediscovered it.

George Chastain

federal operator 99 (10/17/05 3:13 pm)

Re: Where we be at (Wagon-driving Chaney double) ------Bill, I'm not sure which photo you're referring to, but I would be willing to attach it to an email if you can pinpoint it in the thread.

In the meantime, here's two frames of the obvious stand-in dummy (I'll call him "Eddie McCarthy," in homage to Messrs. Parker and Charlie McCarthy) from House of Frankenstein. As you will note, he has no chin-dimple (so he couldn't possibly be "Gil McCarthy"!)... Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------130

And here are two photos of Glenn and Boris from the quicksand climax...

Can we be certain it's Glenn in the 1st frame above? One would presume so, because both he and Boris obviously do their own "stuntwork" when asked to submerge in the muck...

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------131

taraco (10/17/05 3:20 pm)

Re: Who's THIS guy... ------Reposted...

blackbiped ( Re: Who's THIS guy? ------Is it Dale Van Sickel from HELLZAPOPPIN? Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

Jacks Garage Re: Who's THIS guy? ------Yep-Hellzapoppin!

taraco (10/17/05 3:21 pm)

What dummy? HOUSE OF FRANKENSTEIN ------Yes, onward to HOUSE.

Those are great HOUSE OF FRANKENSTEIN pics, FedOp, but I'm confused.

That's a dummy on the table??

If you recall, this is what Greg Mank posted earlier about HOUSE:

Mank: 'It really seems the only way to confirm definitively who doubled the Monster and where and when is to look at the production call sheets. Unfortunately, usually these don't exist any more (although I have them for House of Frankenstein and can tell you, before that film's discussed, that Glenn Strange definitely had NO double in that film, other than the dummy you see in one shot on the operating table). '

But I gotta tell ya, that's a pretty good dummy in those photos above.

Also, it is pretty amazing that both Strange and Karloff did that fabulous quicksand sink, which shows a great dedication to the project!

If they had cut away and replaced the two with longshot stand-ins, it would have lost all its power.

Ever since I sawthe scene as a kid, I've thought that's how you die in quicksand, with a final swoop of the hair, and then gone! david Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------132

'Not this way. Quicksand!' Edited by: taraco at: 10/17/05 3:25 pm

TomWeaver999 (10/17/05 3:27 pm)

Re: Where we be at (Wagon-driving Chaney double) ------Boris Karloff's double in HOUSE OF FRANK's climactic "fiery swamp" scene was Carey Loftin, who talked to me about being carried by Strange in that part of that scene. According to Loftin, it was even Strange when the fire spread quicker than anybody anticipated, and they had to hot-foot it a little (no pun intended).

TomWeaver999 (10/17/05 3:33 pm)

Re: Who's THIS guy... ------<< pretty amazing that both Strange and Karloff did that fabulous quicksand sink, which shows a great dedication to the project! <<

You want "pretty amazing"? -- it was 3 AM, 40 degrees and frost on the ground when they shot that, according to a little article that ran in a 1944 newspaper. A few seconds after the two guys disappeared into the water, Strange popped up, but not Karloff (he didn't pick-up on the signal to come up, and didn't want to spoil the take). Producer Paul Malvern: "Erle [Kenton] and I were getting ready to dive in when Karloff's head bobbed up. Boris is the best sport I have ever met. When he emerged from the water, he was trembling with cold. But he never uttered a single word of complaint."

Audrey Dalton told me a similar story about Karloff lying in a road in the pouring rain for an episode of THRILLER. Poor Boris!!

federal operator 99 (10/17/05 5:00 pm)

Re: Heads up for Tom Weaver ------Quote: ------That's a dummy on the table?? ------

I just assumed that it was, with the best indication being the monster's somewhat wonky right hand (it appears very unnatural, supported as it is in a perpendicular fashion by a splayed little finger against the table, with the wrist actually elevated). Plus, the face photographs unnaturally flat, something that is not all that evident in the still frames.

But back to FMTWM for a moment, here are some vidcaps of the wagon scene for Tom to employ the fine art of phrenology on the back of the wagon driver's head... Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------133 Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------134

Edited by: federal Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------135 operator 99 at: 10/17/05 5:02 pm

Bill Warren (10/17/05 5:04 pm)

Re: Who's THIS guy... ------Both of the hands in the "is it a dummy?" shot on the left look unrealistic to me, though the head is remarkably life-like.

As for the barrel scene--it's certainly not Bela. He was too old to be asked to clamber around barrels like that. But as to who it really is--I dunno. I can't see the ear whorls OR the nose folds.

Joe Karlosi (10/17/05 5:09 pm)

Re: Who's THIS guy... ------I've always been very impressed and amazed that Boris Karloff actually agreed to do the quicksand scene at the end of HOUSE. Especially when you consider that he (supposedly) was tired of the series by this time and perhaps just 'walked through' the film, as is often suggested. I wouldn't have thought Karloff would want to bother to get it so perfect!

I vote for "dummy" for the table Frankie. ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Edited by: Joe Karlosi at: 10/17/05 5:10 pm

TomWeaver999 (10/17/05 5:17 pm)

Re: Who's THIS guy... ------Fed Op, you're the best, and your frame grabs are fabulous!

And I still say that's Dave Sharpe, but perhaps only from the back. Who it is in the front, I can't be sure!

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------136

Ted Newsom (10/17/05 6:29 pm)

Re: Who's THIS guy... ------

I've seen this identified over and over through the years as Dale van Sickle in HELLZAPOPPIN'. Since there's a visible copyright date of 1941, and that's the year HELLZAPOPPIN' was made, I'd say we're on purdy firm footin'.

I'll betcha the arms of the dummy Monster were jointed. The Frozen Monster seems to have one hand crossways over his face, or am I misremembering things.

Note on the Van Sickle photo on the previous page, he doesn't seem to be wearing the Big Monster Boots, just STREET SHOES!!!! Maybe HE is the Mystery Monster in the 1931 film! (Please,no, dear God, I'm just kidding...!)

Also-- Glenn Strange's interview in Modern Monsters (transcribed from the Bob Burns/Don Glut audio interview they did) says that he was the Monster in the fire, and the sagebrush went up a LOT faster than he or anybody expected.

The Barrel Monster has a cleft in his chin, boys...

federal operator 99 (10/17/05 6:46 pm)

Re: Dummy on ice ------Ted, here's the frozen monster, with his hand ("unnatural," as Bill noted) in the vicinity of his face, just as you remembered...

Quite ironically, I think the face behind the ice more closely resembles Bela (when its supposed to be Glenn), than the similar Perkins (Parker?) scene in FMTWM...

georgechastain (10/17/05 6:54 pm)

House of Frankenstein Frame blowups -- quicksand scene ------Quote: ------Can we be certain it's Glenn in the 1st frame above? One would presume so, because both he and Boris obviously do their own "stuntwork" when asked to submerge in the muck... ------Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------137

Just checked the scene in the film of the Monster and Carey Loftin just before they step into the quicksand, and though it certainly DOESN'T look like Glenn Strange in that 1st screen capture you presented (especially when blown up bigger), that frame is part of a continuous sequence in which it's obviously Glenn in other frames. Glenn makes some very Strange faces during those scenes, and by some weird quirk I can't recognize him at all in this particular frame. Maybe if he turned around...

Have we hashed out the barrel-rolling Frank as much as we can? He doesn't look like either Gil or Eddie to me, and may be a third guy altogether... but if it isn't either of them, and we don't have some sort of clue as to who else it might be (we don't, do we?), we may be thorougly stumped. Maybe there was a stuntman who was especially good at barrel-rolling? Republic did lots of western and serial scenes like that so there must have been some guys who developed a real knack for it. There may be clues waiting to be discovered by watching more B-westerns -- in which case we'll probably never know. A few years ago I asked Forry Ackerman what he thinks of cowboy movies and he said "I hate westerns!"

George Chastain

Bill Warren (10/17/05 7:19 pm)

Re: Who's THIS guy... ------Universal regarded all their movies as products designed to make money. I doubt that they thought much about continuity in Frankenstein Monster stunt men, just hired whoever seemed right for that particular scene--and chose from whoever was handy.

federal operator 99 (10/17/05 7:35 pm)

Re: Glenn & Boris (Carey?) ------The particular scene with Glenn & Boris (or Carey) is a very short (only about 3 or 4 seconds) sequence that represents a single camera set-up. It is "bookended" by inserts of the torch-wielding mob. When the shot resumes on Glenn & Boris, it is composed in a much tighter frame (and clearly Boris once more and no possibility of a stand-in). Here are three cropped frames from the sequence in question: Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------138

I guess Glenn just looks more strange -- or, more correctly, less Strange! --than usual; in fact, he looks somewhat reminiscent of Victor Mature to me (especially in the eyes).

georgechastain (10/17/05 7:45 pm)

Universal vs. Republic, Perkins vs. Parker, yadda yadda ------Quote: ------Universal regarded all their movies as products designed to make money. I doubt that they thought much about continuity in Frankenstein Monster stunt men, just hired whoever seemed right for that particular scene--and chose from whoever was handy. ------

You're no doubt right, Bill, but Republic was a profit-making machine too, and they had a whole stable full of stand-ins for Trigger with different specialities. It's just good business sense to get the best performers for the job required.

Quote: ------The Barrel Monster has a cleft in his chin, boys... ------

I took another look at some of Federal Operator 99's great frames of the Frank (I think) we agree is Gil Perkins now, grabbing for Ilona at the climax (but not carrying her up the stairs).

I think I can see at least a little resemblance to the barrel-rolling Frank, so I can live with the notion that it's Gil Perkins if everybody else thinks so.

But for what it's worth, here's a picture of Ed Parker in Republic's LONE RANGER RIDES AGAIN serial (1939) that I blew up from a group shot in VALLEY OF THE CLIFFHANGERS (p. 109). It was a tiny shot of his face, but his chin dimple is more pronounced here than in any of the other shots I've seen. Maybe it's just the lighting, or maybe his chin was punched so many times it was usually swollen out of shape...

George Chastain Edited by: georgechastain at: 10/17/05 7:48 pm

HalLane (10/17/05 7:50 pm)

Dummy on ice ------There's a similar photo in Denis Gifford's A PICTORIAL HISTORY OF HORROR MOVIES from a slightly different angle (exact same hand position, though), and to me it looks like a life-mask of Chaney Jr. with his eyes closed.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------139 nightmarekey (10/17/05 8:08 pm)

Re: Iceee # 2 (IN CASE THE OTHER GOT LOST) ------You don't for a moment suppose, do you, that it's a "publicity still" (as opposed to a "screenshot")... and as such, a stuntman wouldn't have been used... moreover, it provides a nice "frontal pose" of "star" Chaney... "here we are, Bela & I, shooting a difficult scene in Arctic conditions... I hope you all enjoy the hardship we went through to get this just right"... the real caption was probably: "Get the shot, dammit, I gotta pee & what's that @#%$ on the brute doin' with my Daniels... thought I locked the dressing room!!!"

Ted Newsom (10/17/05 8:49 pm)

Ice, Ice, Very Nice ------Correct me y'all, but I think Greg Mank uncovered a news item during shooting of FMTWM where Bela collapsed while shooting the ice sequence. And that would explain why it looks like Bela behind the ice. Now, he may not be sitting ON ice--chances are, not, because the Monster is lit from BEHIND the ice as well as from the front, with Chaney; ice would melt. But if you check the set dressing (stalactites, etc.), the striations of the ice, and the lighting scheme of the two shots (the still and the frame blow up), they're not at all alike. That, coupled with the difference in position of the Monster (Mr. Stunt Man Whomever He Is having his arms much higher) leads me to believe the First Face Behind the Ice is indeed Bela Lugosi-- at least for a half-day until his butt and back gave way.

TomWeaver999 (10/17/05 9:23 pm)

Re: Dummy on ice ------<< Greg Mank uncovered a news item during shooting of FMTWM where Bela collapsed while shooting the ice sequence. <<

The only news item I ever found mentions the collapse but doesn't mention the scene:

HOLLYWOOD REPORTER 11/6/42 – Lugosi collapsed on the FMTWM set yesterday and was ordered home by his physician. Illness diagnosed as exhaustion, brought on by Lugosi packing around the 35-pound monster makeup.

On the same day, Maria Ouspenskaya suffered a fractured ankle when a coach ran over her foot, and went into Cedars of Lebanon hospital.

Ted Newsom (10/17/05 9:42 pm)

Hurtee ------Bad day for expatriates.

Wonder what they were shooting with Mme. Maria, a wagon, and Bela in Monster gear? Don't know if this makes Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------140 sense, unless he just collapsed in his dressing room... or Maria fell off the wagon that day...

Tim Lucas VW (10/17/05 9:47 pm)

Re: Ice, Ice, Very Nice ------Are Universal press releases of this period generally considered more believable than, for instance, the stinky BS that pollutes the credibility of so many AIP pressbooks? I mean, do we know these things actually happened, or were these stories invented to keep the names of the production and its studios in print and nurse along interest?

Ted Newsom (10/17/05 10:05 pm)

Re: Dummy on ice ------Excellent point. But why release a news blurb about an old lady getting her foot run over, or an actor collapsing? Seems like that'd be stuff you wouldn't necessarily brag about... unless... (ominous music sting, please) Universal was trying to destroy Bela Lugosi?!?!

(And Maria Ouspenskya while they're at it.)

TomWeaver999 (10/17/05 10:51 pm)

Re: Hurtee ------I have a feeling the Ouspenskaya item was legit -- HOLLYWOOD REPORTER went on to report, a few days later, the names of the friends at whose home she was recuperating. And she DOES vanish from FMTWM a little abruptly. Maleva's disappearance may or may not have been called for in the script -- it's been a long time since I've read it, I don't remember. But inability to come back to work would certainly explain it.

georgechastain (10/17/05 11:19 pm)

Re: Who's THIS guy... ------Quote: ------Note on the Van Sickle photo on the previous page, he doesn't seem to be wearing the Big Monster Boots, just STREET SHOES!!!! Maybe HE is the Mystery Monster in the 1931 film! (Please,no, dear God, I'm just kidding...!) ------

When I was checking out the FMTWM climax last time, I noticed that the stuntman playing Frank when the water bursts through the wall (which Gil Perkins said was him, right?) is rather sloppily dressed and isn't wearing the big Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------141 shoes either. Guess they figured he'd have enough problems flailing around in that deluge without tripping over those clodhoppers.

George Chastain

nightmarekey (10/17/05 11:20 pm)

Re: Ice, Ice, Very Nice ------Quote: ------That, coupled with the difference in position of the Monster (Mr. Stunt Man Whomever He Is having his arms much higher) leads me to believe the First Face Behind the Ice is indeed Bela Lugosi-- at least for a half-day untilhis butt and back gave way. ------

In other words, a Publicity Still... (stalagtities, stirations, lighting schemes & "dances with dollies" indeed... although some dollies prefer a butt to give way before a back.) And, I don't for a Vasarian Minute believe it's "ice"... rather, a "glutineous compound" (sugar, water, & God-knows-what like they used for "breakaway glass"); effective, & a far cry from Monogram & Katzman's "Saran Wrap" cell-o-phane "equivalent" for RETURN OF THE APE MAN.

GAKENSTEIN (10/17/05 11:43 pm)

Re: Lookin' for some Strange.... ------Boy, this thread is FUN!

Re: Operator 99's frame grabs of HOF finale... that flattop dude really does not resemble Glenn Strange! Maybe it's the shadows and/or his face-pulling, but this Franky's all jowly -- like Chaney Jr.! (Or possibly "Parkins"?) Seriously, look carefully... not very Strange at all. "Supernatural perhaps...baloney, perhaps not!"

Trust Me Themes (10/18/05 12:07 am)

Re: Hurtee ------For the ice cave 'real ice or not' and 'was that Lugosi as the monster behind the ice in the still' debate -

While it may not have been made entirely of ice, it certainly was cold on that set. Look at the scene when Chaney first wakes up....the small running stream of water was obviously very warm because one, you can see the steam rising, and two, Chaney buries his face and hand in for a moment, presumably to get warm. The second point being, once Chaney rises to his knees and rubs his face, you can see his breath.

Now, I'm just about 21 and certainly don't have the knowledge that the other historians do, but ever since I can remember I could easily reckongnize Chaney, Lugosi or Karloff, and ever since I first saw the still of The Monster Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------142 frozen in ice with Chaney looking onward in that old orange Crestwod House book by Ian Thorne, I have thought that to be Lugosi behind the ice. I will definitely agree with Ted....call me crazy but to me, it is easy to tell thats Lugosi's face. Plus, as Ted has already mentioned, in the still The Monster seems to be standing upright(for obvious reasons considering Lugosi's back problems) with his arms outstreched just to his sides. In the movie, The Monster is more leaned back (which is why we get an 'up the nose' shot) with his arms up and outstretched....perhaps he was frozen in holy prayer.

I can certainly see a 60 year old man with chronic back pain succumbing to the physical toll of long hours of make-up, getting posistioned into the ice, and then waiting for lights and everything to be just perfect for the shot to be taken.

On a side note, I've always felt that the stuntman(men) who played as The Monster in the final fight should have been fired for acting like a plastic action figure with non-moving arms. When The Monster goes to push that machine through the air with The wolf Man on top of it, Lugosi actually grabs it with his hands and rears back as if he was really going to throw it. Whoever that stuntman was simply put his forearms barely against the sides and goes through the motions while the wires do the rest. Lugosi gave a much more convincing and believeable performance in that fight than the stuntmen who stood in for him. I'll stop there before I turn this into another thread lol.

Livio Edited by: Trust Me Themes at: 10/18/05 12:10 am

nightmarekey (10/18/05 12:53 am)

Re: Hurtee ------Quote: ------I'll stop there before I turn this into another thread lol. ------

Don't worry about that... as long as Ted's convinced Lee Harvey Oswald was in David Ferrie's Civil Air Patrol group, Gil Perkins and/or Ed Parker subbed for Bela's sore back/butt. LOL... And, Universal could (& apparently did) spare a few sheckels for some "dry ice" in "frosty" Southern CA....(no substantiative truth to the rumor that those scenes were shot in the same "icehouse" Capra used for LOST HORIZON....)

taraco (10/18/05 9:37 am)

Quicksand scene... ------This thread is moving so fast; too much to do!!

But seriously, the still of Glenn Strange carrying the Karloff stuntman to the quicksand actually DOESN'T look like Glenn Strange.

Does anyone actually think it's not him?

Sometimes I think we underestimate what it takes to carry somebody. I can't imagine Strange not big or strong Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------143 enough to tote somebody around, but...

Anyhow, what think? Greg Mank says there's no record -- and he's seen the production records -- of anyone but Strange as the Monster in House of Frankenstein. But why do those photos look so un-Strange? david

georgechastain (10/18/05 10:44 am) Reply

On the Trail of Wesley Hopper ------This may REALLY be getting a little too carried away -- but since Wesley Hopper was mentioned by Gil Perkins as being on the FMTWM set (making lewd comments about what he'd like to do to the diaphonously-clad Ilona Massey), I thought we should know what he looked like -- perhaps he was involved in the film in some way?

From his sketchy IMDb entry (no bio data), he appears to have been more of a bit player than a stuntman. He played a priest in DeMille's SAMSON AND DELILAH, appears in small roles in several excellent noirish thrillers (KISS THE BLOOD OFF MY HANDS, ACT OF VIOLENCE and KNOCK ON ANY DOOR), and has what sounds like a promising part ("Barney Gale, would-be assassin") in Republic's Vera Ralston western SURRENDER. IMDb also lists a single serial, Repulbic's THE LONE RANGER RIDES AGAIN, in which he plays "Posseman 3" in Chapter 7.

The Jack Mathis VALLEY OF THE CLIFFHANGERS books have him in two other serials, including the previous LONE RANGER serial (as one of several dozen Troopers), and THE FIGHTING DEVIL DOGS (1938), as "Pawnee Radioman."

Crewmembers of the Coast Guard patrol boat Pawnee appear in Chapter 10, "In the Camp of the Enemy," shelling "The Lightning"'s island stronghold submarine base and endangering the heroes in the cavern inside. Two crewmen in dress uniforms appear in the cabin of the Pawnee and answer a radio call in a very brief scene. I assume the guy who picks up the receiver is Wesley Hopper (the other guy, who seems to be a senior officer, must be Buddy Roosevelt as the "Pawnee Lieutenant").

I sincerely apologize for the crappy images 9shot with a digital camera off my TV screen and fussed a bit with Photoshop) but it's the best I can do and at least a start on identifying this guy. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------144

Dr Gangrene (10/18/05 10:59 am)

Re: Quicksand scene.. . ------Quote: ------Does anyone actually think it's not him? ------

Not me. It looks like Strange to me. And with all evidence pointing to it being Strange, I think it's a safe bet to say it's him. He's making faces in it, so it isn't a normal shot of him... But to my eyes it is Glenn.

Hey, why not ask a Strange expert - not sure if Bob (Burns) is back from New Zealand yet, but drop him a line. He'd be the man to ask in all things Strangian. Heck, maybe Glenn mentioned something about one of the other stunt guys' previous work to Bob. You just KNOW Bob picked his brain many times on the subject of those films.

And btw, off topic, how cool is it that Bob is getting that cameo in the new Kong film? Man, that rocks!

georgechastain (10/18/05 11:01 am)

Re: Quicksand scene... ------David -- I posted on this earlier... though that frame grab of the Monster and Karloff's double definitely DOESN'T look anything like Glenn Strange, if you go to the film itself you'll see that it's a frame from a continuous shot of Glenn in which it's obviously him in most of the other frames, though he does make some very unusual faces I'd never seen before. After slo-mowing through the sequence in the film itself, I'm sure it's Glenn, though I too thought it HAD to be a double from the unrecognizable frame grab.

George Chastain

TomWeaver999 (10/18/05 12:23 pm)

Re: On the Trail of Wesley Hopper ------Wes Hopper could have been the double for Patric Knowles as the machinery blows up and white smoke is rising and the beams are falling into the room. A possibility.

Another possibility: He was just hangin' around. Carey Loftin told me all about the HOUSE OF FRANK scene in which J. Carrol Naish's double fell from the roof, and HE (Loftin) had nothing to do with the scene. As long as he Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------145 was there ANYWAY, he just hung around to watch.

<< Sometimes I think we underestimate what it takes to carry somebody. I can't imagine Strange not big or strong enough to tote somebody around, but... <<

Glenn Strange (The Monster) and Carey Loftin (Dr. Niemann's double) were hooked up together in SOME way -- Strange was wearing some kind of harness, and Loftin was too, and they were hooked together (or something). So, yes, Strange was pretty much carrying him, but not having to worry about holding him tight enough not to drop him, which of course would be a big help. Loftin told me he was glad he was NOT hooked to Strange when all the tumbleweeds started burning too fast -- as it WAS, he said, "We both got scorched!"

Me: Did Glenn Strange have a double at any point in those closing scenes? Loftin: I think he did everything. He was very agile.

georgechastain (10/18/05 1:05 pm)

Eddie Parker and BRIDE OF THE MONSTER ------A little off-trail, but since Ed Parker's film credits have been central to much of this discussion, not too far afield:

Ed Wood stock company player Conrad Brooks is a fellow West Virginian now, and we chat on the phone regularly about old movies and what we've been up to lately. Connie has always been a big movie fan, and in the old days he knew some very interesting actors like Lugosi, Ken Maynard, Eddie Polo and Lawrence Tierney, as well as B-movie players like Kenne Duncan, Bud Osborne and the Bowery Boys.

He called from Minnesota last night, en route home from a guest appearance at a show in Detroit, and I asked him two questions that had been on my mind: if he had ever met or knew anything about Eddie Parker, and if he had any information about Lugosi's stunt double in BRIDE OF THE MONSTER. Unfortunately, he never met Ed Parker, and didn't have any idea who doubled Bela in BotM, since he wasn't on the set when those scenes were filmed. Ah well, I gave it a shot.

Ted or anybody -- is there anyone else left from the Ed Wood camp who might know something about that stunt double? Everybody seems to agree now that it's NOT Ed Parker, but it would be great to find out who it really is.

George Chastain

Ted Newsom (10/18/05 1:08 pm)

Re: Quicksand scene.. . ------The interview with Strange that I cited before-- quizzed by Bob Burns and Don Glut-- states Strange's recollections, which was that Loftin was braced by a strap around Strange's shoulder, hidden by the costume ("Nobody can just carry a guy around like that."), and that he and Loftin, not to mention the crew, were unhappily surprised at how fast the sagebrush caught fire around them.

Given that situation-- lugging a 180 pound guy under one arm, walking in boots with 4 inch lifts, in a make-up that Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------146 prevented you from properly seeing, after being thumping in the middle of the back by a flaming torch from an overenthusiastic extra, and then suddenly surrounded by fire-- shttt, man, I'd make some weird faces, too!

Still frames can be funky. Grab the wrong frame of the most recognizable person in the world and they can look like a reflection in a funhouse mirror. Just check out HORRORS OF THE BLACK MUSEUM. Oh, wait... that was a funhouse mirror. Or fun-fair. Whatever. I still spell the word "aluminium" as "aluminum."

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/18/05 1:09 pm

Ted Newsom (10/18/05 1:24 pm)

Re: On the Trail of Ted Turner ------George: I've been mucking with MS Paint for a couple of years, but the turning point was combining it with MS Photo Editor. I always wanted to figure out how to "colorize" stuff with Paint, put the best I could do was spraypaint something, which just made it look like taggers had been in the neighborhood.

The F MEETS W and Hellzapoppiin' things I am kinda pround of. I captured the still by copying it; Save As a Paint Bitmap. Copy the bitmap and drop it into Photo Editor. Photo has a function to control the color brightness, gamma (whatever that is) and contrast, plus the same functions on three primary colors. This means that with proper adjustments, you can force a black and white photo into pretty much any color you want, given the right amount of diddling around. Took an AGE to get a flesh tone for the ballerina, for instance.

What I do then is copy the original photo in various hues for the individual elements, then save them as Paint documents. Paint has a cut-out function-- cutting paper dolls, basically. By leaving the size of the image untouched, that color layer-- say, the flesh tones-- and deteling everything else around it -- it then becomes like a transparency, an animation cell that fits over your template. Enough varieties of colors enchances the effect. For instance, on the lobby card, the Monster's costume is pretty much one color, since that's what they'd do on a hand-painted one. For Hellzapoppin', I used three or four "blacks," one for the hair, one for the boots, one for the shirt, one for the pants and jacket-- a little touch of blue, or red, or whatever. And that time I was smart enough to start assembling the elements back to front instead of the other way around.

I always got the biggest kick out of those Dave Stevens covers for Cult Movies and thought, Wow, I wish I could do that! And that color version of Donnie Dunnigan on Karloff's lap on, what, Monster Kid? Scary Monsters? Turned out not too be all that hard. What I wanna know it, how the hell does Kerry G do those 3-D images?!?!?!

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/18/05 1:28 pm

georgechastain (10/18/05 2:31 pm)

Re: Eddie Parker and BRIDE OF THE MONSTER ------Just answered my own question, I guess... When I checked the IMDb entry on BotM (quite a while ago), Eddie Parker was listed as Lugosi's stunt double, probably based on the same old mistaken ID (though I wish the truth could be verified beyond question). Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------147

Just now I checked again, and the full credits now show:

Stunts Eddie Parker.... stunt double: Bela Lugosi (uncredited) Red Reagan.... stunt double: Bela Lugosi (uncredited)

Don't know where the Reagan info came from, but someone must know SOMETHING about it.

Incidentally, I've heard stories about the difficulty of getting updates and corrections posted in the IMDb, but whenever this forum reaches conclusions that differ from the IMDb version, it would be great if we could get the data updated. Despite many errors of the sort above, the IMDb is an excellent resource that could improve immeasurably with a little help from scholars.

George Chastain

Bill Warren (10/18/05 4:06 pm)

Re: IMDb ------Quote: ------Don't know where the Reagan info came from, but someone must know SOMETHING about it. ------

At least someone THINKS they know something about it. The IMDb is a great resource, but I'd be cautious about taking the information there as proven. As for offering alterations and additions, I've done that sometimes, and I know Tom Weaver has done it too, a lot more than I have.

Joe Karlosi (10/18/05 5:35 pm)

Re: On the Trail of Ted Turner ------He's making faces in the shot, but I think it's still definitely Strange. ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

georgechastain (10/18/05 6:21 pm)

Re: On the Trail of Ted Turner (Warning! WAY OFF TRAIL!) ------Ted -- Sounds like your programs are pretty similar to Photoshop: layers, sliding-scale coloration controls, transparency controls, etc. The biggest problem I have when I do a piece is that I haven't figured out any very sophisticated ways of cuttings things away around the objects I want to keep on each layer. Unless the surrounding area is quite distinct Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------148 and can be click-selected and deleted, it can be pretty time-consuming. And I've done some things that end up being hundreds of layers, some containing very tiny elements. Here's a sample, a spoof of the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper cover I did for Kevin Clements "Chiller Theatre" show a couple of Halloweens ago, with something like 150-200 past guests in the background, each with their own layer. Uncle Forry is the bust of Sgt. Pepper in the foreground. Though I kept a scan of the original artwork in the background for reference, every speck of the original LP cover was totally recreated -- even the grass is new... it's made from scans of Skull Island foliage in photos from KONG. At the 11th hour I abandoned the original plan of keeping the basic elements as close as possible to the original, and added a picture of every guest at the show that year -- WAY too many heads! All of the guest layers in the Photoshop file are named correctly, so I have a record of who's in it, and had hopes of making one of those numbered outline maps of who's who -- but even that will be a lot of work so I haven't got around to it!

Here's the URL for my portfolio page for the original 11x17 poster: myweb.wvnet.edu/e-gor/por...delvi.html

I'd just imbed it here but the image would be too small to see the detail. The poster image on the page is linked to a large JPEG that shows lots of details.

Guess we shudda swapped these notes elsewhere, Ted, but I'm glad to hear about your technique.

What's the ruling, Mr. Moderator -- should we take comments like this outside?

George Chastain

taraco (10/18/05 7:10 pm)

Re: On the Trail of Ted Turner ------>>should we take comments like this outside?

I have enjoyed reading them so far, too, but I think there's enough interest that maybe it would be better to create a new thread about photo imaging and/or Photoshopping.

We've talked about created a Horror Tech folder that could cover such topics and maybe now that Kerry has some breathing room he can try to set one up.

The beauty of this thread has been its single-mindedness (simplemindedness?), so veering too far off the who-played-who-when yellow line does tend to get a bit off track.

So why don't we see if we can create such a folder.

Here's the Horror Tech folder: p075.ezboard.com/fmonsterkidclassichorrorforumfrm71

Meanwhile, get ready, we're about to move on to House...Of...DRACULA! david Edited by: taraco at: 10/19/05 2:32 pm Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------149

Scoundrel (10/18/05 7:22 pm)

Re: Lookin' for some Strange... . ------GAKENSTEIN wrote:

" Re: Operator 99's frame grabs of HOF finale... that flattop dude really does not resemble Glenn Strange! Maybe it's the shadows and/or his face-pulling, but this Franky's all jowly -- like Chaney Jr.! (Or possibly "Parkins"?) Seriously, look carefully... not very Strange at all. "

This was the sequence that made me wonder about a stunt double for Strange... The monster looks different,...is a little more "animated " in his gestures ,..(in this particular shot) and looks a bit shorter than Glenn.

I am now convinced that it is Glenn Strange, but it puzzled me for quite a while.

I agree,...great topic...!!!!!

Edited by: Scoundrel at: 10/18/05 7:31 pm

Ted Newsom (10/18/05 8:25 pm)

Re: On the Trail of Ted Turner ------So...House o'D.

Strange on the table-- a couple of shots in Edleman's nightmare (in the rain with Onslow on his knees; barrelling (!) through townsfolk in the village); getting off the table & knocking a cop aside and throwing Atwill against a generator; watching Edleman getting shot, and getting shot himself; on one side of the table when Chaney drops the conveniently-igniting chemicals-- and the end shot where he's crawling across the floor to give Edleman a big smooch as the superimposed flames consume and cleanse one and all.

No doubles or stand-ins far's I can see-- there wasn't that much to do in the first place. But thar's recognizable footage of Karloff from BRIDE (flailing through the cemetary, pushing through a village crowd), and Chaney and/or his double from GHOST (the fire climax).

Anybody want to bet on Eddie Parker being the guy who secretly doubled Strange lying in the mud? A dummy on the table? Or all we all pretty exhausted?

Ted Newsom (10/18/05 9:07 pm)

Re: On the Trail of Sgt. Zacherly ------You got the Vice Squad job as long as you don't plot to assassinate me.

Hey, I don't know where that other stuntman's name came up with regard to BRIDE OF THE MONSTER, but that Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------150 may be one more tentpole removed from Clumsy Ed's Dead Man's Shoe Stealing Travelling Circus.

A/C anybody?

TomWeaver999 (10/18/05 11:27 pm)

Re: On the Trail of Ted Turner ------<< Anybody want to bet on Eddie Parker being the guy who secretly doubled Strange lying in the mud? <<

Didn't Strange once mention doing that? And how cold it was? That's a vague back-of-my-head memory.

PShields79 (10/18/05 11:44 pm)

Re: On the Trail of Glenn Strange ------Quote: ------Didn't Strange once mention doing that? And how cold it was? That's a vague back-of-my-head memory. ------

Yes, Tom. While I was being made up as old Jack Pierce in 2000, Bob Burns stood beside me and told me the story of how Chaney, looking for some action, came to the set while Strange was in the mud and insisted they go drinking. Glenn told Lon he couldn't, as he was obviously indisposed. Chaney then ripped the headpiece off of Strange from the back, flapping it over the top of his head, and said, "There, you're done for the night." Filming had to stop and the story goes on from there how Glenn got looped with Chaney and practically swooned when his makeup was off, as he sat by a nice roaring fire in whatever room they were removing it.

Ted Newsom (10/18/05 11:55 pm)

Re: On the Trail of Sgt. Zacherly ------Perry, I don't know if that's a second Chaney/Strange story, or if Bob was confused, or you're getting it backward... I suppose the boys hung out a lot... but...

... according to Strange himself, in the audio interview Bob did with the big guy circa 1967-- published several times over the years, and available in its entirety on Retromedia's release of THE MAD MONSTER as well as on the TALES OF FRANKENSTEIN DVD from All Day Entertainment...

Strange was lying in the mud all day "And boy, that stuff was COLD! I'm lying there with the skeleton of Karloff, and I was gettin' a chill. Well, Lon come down there with a fifth, and I think I got MOST of it! I just took that bottle an' down it went. I was looped!" It clearly wasn't a day when Chaney was off, since he's in the scene with Strange, and there are only about 4 shots: one on Strange, a wider three shot with Chaney and Stevens, a second angle showing Strange slightly moving his fingers, and a shift in angle for the last bit where they walk off. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------151

He doesn't say anything about having to re-shoot the thing on a day when Chaney wasn't there, and 4 shots a day isn't very much; they probably shot the post-werewolf scenes the same day in the same set. It would then appear that Lon came to work ready for lunch, and shared it with a mud-packed pal.

The headpiece ripping-- that sounds suspiciously like what Chaney himself did on GHOST, which seems out of character in the HOUSE OF DRACULA situation. This was a guy who stood up for silent star William Desmond (a contemporary of Chaney Sr.) who had a demeaning little bit in THE MUMMY'S CURSE; Chaney went to the front office-- no doubt still wrapped-- and said if they didn't treat Desmond with the proper respect he would walk off the picture. That same good ol' Lon got a letter of thanks and commendation from the Universal brass in '48 when he volunteered to sub for Strange on A & C. It seems unlikely that he would cruise down to the set on his off-day, screw up the scehdule and potentially get Glenn Strange fired just to go out pub-crawling. I'm not saying it wouldn't happen... but it sounds like a confusion of anecdotes.

(I was kidding about a Mud Stand In. Eddie Parker doesn't do mud. Or, as it appears, much of anything else.)

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/19/05 12:06 am

Bill Warren (10/19/05 2:11 am)

Re: On the Trail of Ted Turner ------So who plays the Monster in ABBOTT AND COSTELLO MEET DR. JEKYLL AND MR. HYDE?

PShields79 (10/19/05 2:46 am)

Re: On the Trail of Glenn Strange ------Quote: ------Perry, I don't know if that's a second Chaney/Strange story, or if Bob was confused, or you're getting it backward... I suppose the boys hung out a lot... but... ------

I am familiar with the Strange quote you posted, Ted. I can't remember where I first read it, but it was a long time ago.

Bob may have been talking about a different incident, but the way he told it to me, he emphasized that Chaney was loaded and that he deliberately tore Strange's headpiece off. Now, maybe this was the end of shooting, Lon was hanging around, and it was just Chaney's way of getting the ball rolling for Glenn to get out of makeup. At any rate, I call 'em as I hear 'em.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------152 georgechastain (10/19/05 3:09 am)

Re: On the Trail of Sgt. Zacherly ------Quote: ------This was a guy who stood up for silent star William Desmond (a contemporary of Chaney Sr.) who had a demeaning little bit in THE MUMMY'S CURSE; Chaney went to the front office-- no doubt still wrapped-- and said if they didn't treat Desmond with the proper respect he would walk off the picture. ------

You're right about Chaney standing up for the old-time star, but it was William Farnum who played "Michael, the Sacristan" in THE MUMMY'S CURSE. Farnum was a HUGE star in the silent era, as far back as 1912, playing the romantic lead in the original versions of perennial favorites like TALE OF TWO CITIES, LES MISERABLES, THE SPOILERS and RIDERS OF THE PURPLE SAGE. He was still acting in the early 50's. IMDb gives him a TV credit in 1966, but it's for the retitled feature version of UNDERSEA KINGDOM Republic released to television that year -- Farnum died in 1953. (I wish IMDb would note this sort of thing more clearly because it causes filmography errors elsewhere -- like Noble Johnson getting a "last film" credit for a retitled cliffhanger, years after his death.)

I only know about Farnum because I've always enjoyed his flamboyant acting in westerns and serials like MEXICALI ROSE, THE TRAIL OF ROBIN HOOD and UNDERSEA KINGDOM. He has a very stagy, melodramatic acting style like nobody else in the talkies, very noticable in his small role in MUMMY'S CURSE.

His only other genre credit that I know of (other than fantasy serials) is SUPERNATURAL with Carole Lombard.

I was really proud of Lon when I read about him standing up for the old trouper that way.

George Chastain

taraco (10/19/05 5:27 am)

HOUSE OF DRACULA ------>>So who plays the Monster in ABBOTT AND COSTELLO MEET DR. JEKYLL AND MR. HYDE?

All in good time.

We're finishing up with HOUSE OF DRACULA, and it seems everyone agrees and all evidence shows that except for some insert shots of Karloff from BRIDE and Chaney's charred burning scenes from GHOST, all Monster work is by Glenn Strange.

Edited by: taraco at: 10/19/05 5:57 am

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------153

Ted Newsom (10/19/05 5:50 am)

Re: On the Trail of Glenn Strange ------About the headpiece--- Chaney told a story (and/or the sotry was told about him) that when he did tear the thing off in GHOST he ripped half his forehead off with it. Would he then tear something off somebody he considered a friend just for shtts and grins? He'd have to be pretty zonked. Yeah, OK, the kick-the-shins business with Brod Crawford... but I dunno. All's I know is, Strange didn't tell any story like that on the interview tape, and it happened, it was a doozy. So why not tell the story? He told several self-effacing stories during the time, and you'd think that would stand out. We'll ask Bob when he gts back from Skull Island.

Who played the Monster in A & C MEET J & H? Boris Karloff, of course. Says so right in the credits...

taraco (10/19/05 5:57 am)

Re: On the Trail of Glenn Strange ------Here's an interesting shot from the Magicimage Filmbook showing the shadow of director Erle Kenton in a scene from HOUSE OF FRANKENSTEIN:

Edited by: taraco at: 10/19/05 6:08 am

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------154 taraco (10/19/05 6:00 am)

HOUSE OF DRACULA ------Also from Magicimage, here Jack Pierce makes up Strange in HOUSE OF DRACULA.

The caption says his headpiece isn't on yet, but he looks very scarred and burned. Interesting.

taraco (10/19/05 6:02 am)

Re: HOUSE OF DRACULA ------One more, this one showing the magic of makeup as Onslow Stevens makes up Carey Lofton as himself!

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------155 taraco (10/19/05 6:03 am)

THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------Here's where we are (thanx to Doc Gangrene and Ted Newsom for their work on the listings).

All listings marked with an asterisk (*) indicate evidence is inconclusive or still under debate.

FRANKENSTEIN (1931) Universal Bela Lugosi (lost screen test; no footage included in film) Boris Karloff *Unnamed double: Was double used in parts of creation scene and Monster drugged on floor? David Skal believes photos show hairier arm on Monster in several such shots.

BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN (1935) Universal Boris Karloff George DeNormand: Brief scenes may have included 'rescue' of shepherd girl; monster lifted on pole in long shot during 'crucifixion'; carrying Elizabeth in abduction (long shot); possibly castle explosion. Boris Karloff (footage from FRANKENSTEIN)

TWO HEARTS IN WAX TIME (1935) MGM - 1 reel color musical Monster is a wax dummy which comes to life; simulcrum of BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN make-up & costume; The Monster Sings! *Frank Hayes is billed as "Frank the Mannequin"

ONE IN A MILLION (1936) 20th/Fox - feature musical Al Ritz; song & dance sketch on skates; simulcrum of FRANKENSTEIN make-up and costume. The Monster dances.

SON OF FRANKENSTEIN (1939) Universal Boris Karloff Bud Wolfe: Stand-in for fall into sulphur pit.

THIRD DIMENSIONAL MURDER (1941) MGM 1 reel Ed Payson (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN type make-up and costume)

HELLZAPOPPIN' (1941) Universal- feature comedy Dale Van Sickel (wire gag in theater, throwing woman onto stage)

CELEBRITY BASEBALL NEWSREEL (1942) Boris Karloff

GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1942) Universal Lon Chaney Boris Karloff (archive footage from FRANKENSTEIN) *Eddie Parker: possibly stunt double for scene on village bridge; breaking down door, gas attack; fire climax. NOTE: Gil Perkins, in interviews, recalls playing Monster previous to FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN. Was it Perkins in GHOST?

FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN (1943) Universal Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------156

Bela Lugosi Gil Perkins: Doubles for Monster in the ice scene; on wagon; in fight scene. Eddie Parker Doubles for Wolf Man in fight scene. *Eddie Parker: Possibly doubles for Monster briefly carrying Ilona; possibly in second take of fight scene. NOTE: Debate continues over Parker. Some believe he is in ice, or may have been throwing barrels. Others doubt he was ever the Monster.

HOUSE OF FRANKENSTEIN (1944) Universal Glenn Strange Dummy (Monster frozen in ice; Monster electrified on lab table) Carey Loftin doubled for Karloff in long shots during quicksand scene; it is Strange and Karloff who actually sink in quicksand.

HOUSE OF DRACULA (1945) Universal Glenn Strange Boris Karloff (footage from BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) Lon Chaney (footage from GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN fire scene) Eddie Parker* (footage from GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN fire scene) Carey Loftin doubles for Onslow Stevens.

Suggestions, changes welcome. This is not packed in ice yet!!

And a question. In UNIVERSAL HORRORS, it lists, um, Gil Perkins as a stuntman in HOUSE OF FRANKENSTEIN! Any idea in what capacity? david Edited by: taraco at: 10/19/05 8:59 am

taraco (10/19/05 6:11 am)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------Also, while we discuss this list, and before we get to Abbott and Costello's Monster films, are there any Monster appearances between HOUSE OF DRACULA and A&C MEET FRANKENSTEIN, three years later?

Joe Karlosi (10/19/05 6:22 am)

Re: HOUSE OF DRACULA ------I can't wait to see the screen captures with Lon subbing for Strange! :) ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------157 blackbiped (10/19/05 6:25 am)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------Quote: ------And a question. In UNIVERSAL HORRORS, it lists, um, Gil Perkins as a stuntman in HOUSE OF FRANKENSTEIN! Any idea in what capacity? ------

Did the Wolf Man crashing through that glass door require a stuntman? Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

taraco (10/19/05 6:58 am)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------Adding a few more 'appearances,' I find in Don Glut's FRANKENSTEIN CATALOG:

-- ARSENIC AND OLD LACE (1944, although filmed two years earlier). The famous line about 'He looks like Boris Karloff.'

-- BLUE SKIES (1946). Glut says this Paramount musical includes this scene: 'A nightclub waiter puts his coat on backwards, combs down his hair, distorts his face and stalks across the room in imitation of the Frankenstein monster.'

-- Glut also says the Ritz Brothers' first film, SING, BABY, SING (1936), includes a Frankenstein monster skit. I presume this is different from the Al Ritz scene in ONE IN A MILLION (also 1936). david Edited by: taraco at: 10/19/05 6:59 am

BixB (10/19/05 9:19 am)

Re: HOUSE OF DRACULA ------Quote: ------BLUE SKIES (1946). Glut says this Paramount musical includes this scene: 'A nightclub waiter puts his coat on backwards, combs down his hair, distorts his face and stalks across the room in imitation of the Frankenstein monster. ------

Billy De Wolfe Joe Busam Producer Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------158

Monster Kid Home Movies TomWeaver999 (10/19/05 10:16 am)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------<< In UNIVERSAL HORRORS, it lists, um, Gil Perkins as a stuntman in HOUSE OF FRANKENSTEIN! >>

My memory is that the Bruni and I found original Universal production paperwork that included a list of stuntmen who were working on the movie, and Perkins was one of the names, with no indication what he did. At least two of the other names on that list were confirmed -- Carey Loftin told me he doubled Karloff, and that he (Loftin) watched as stuntman Billy Jones took the high fall for J. Carrol Naish -- so I think it might be safe to say that Perkins was in it somewhere too.

But I've noticed that sometimes production paperwork lists stuntmen who don't make it into the movie. According to Universal's IT CAME FROM OUTER SPACE paperwork, Dale Van Sickel and some other stuntman (I can't remember who right now) did the fight in the sheriff's office for Richard Carlson and Charles Drake. But in the movie, it's always Carlson and Drake. So the two actors must have done everything well enough that there was no need to use any of the footage that had been shot of the stuntmen doing the same fight.

So just because a stuntman worked on a movie doesn't mean that he was in the final print.

Joe Karlosi (10/19/05 10:28 am)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------Tom, is the revised edition of UNIVERSAL HORRORS already completed? Or will the outcome of this thread have some influence over it? ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!" Edited by: Joe Karlosi at: 10/19/05 10:28 am

TomWeaver999 (10/19/05 10:56 am)

Re: HOUSE OF DRACULA ------>> Tom, is the revised edition of UNIVERSAL HORRORS already completed? Or will the outcome of this thread have some influence over it? <<

Our deadline is next May so, yes, this thread WILL be a big help. The name Eddie Parker will have a much shorter index entry as we delete him from various cast lists.

I'm also going to go to IMDB one day soon and either delete about a dozen credits, or at least change them to (unconfirmed), now that we know that all this Parker "info" started with some kid ("professional stuntman Bart Andrews") back in the LBJ era who didn't know his S (-shaped spine) from his elbow.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------159 Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------160 georgechastain (10/19/05 11:03 am)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------Quote: ------FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN (1943) Universal Bela Lugosi Gil Perkins: Doubles for Monster in the ice scene; on wagon; in fight scene. Eddie Parker Doubles for Wolf Man in fight scene. *Eddie Parker: Possibly doubles for Monster briefly carrying Ilona; possibly in second take of fight scene. NOTE: Debate continues over Parker. Some believe he is in ice, or may have been throwing barrels. Others doubt he was ever the Monster. ------

I'll be very disappointed if after all this palaver our findings are so tentative and dubious about Eddie Parker's involvement. I'm absolutely convinced that it's him breaking free of the lab table at the climax, and it also seems to me that it's him carrying Ilona's double in the frame grab that was mocked up as a lobby card (at least it doesn't look anything like Perkins to me). That same beefy face is visible elsewhere in the fight sequence.

I DON'T think it's Parker behind the ice, though Fed Op's amazing morphing images were equally convincing for both actors -- but the chin dimple and face creases and general jaw contour seem to be Perkins' in this case. And the guy with the barrels doesn't look like Parker to me, and does somewhat resemble the guy grabbing Ilona at the climax, who makes that scrunched-lipped face that somebody saw Perkins do several times in an action scene elsewhere.

Several others here SEEMED to be equally convinced that generous sequences of the doubling were NOT Perkins during the discussions, so I see no reason to be so inconclusive about it now -- that will very likely lead to eventual discrediting of Parker's participation altogether, which would be an injustice based on the physical evidence I examined. I believe Don Glut and Eddie Parker (and Bart Andrews too) have been vindicated on this account. If nobody else agrees, so be it, but I'm utterly convinced.

Back to HOUSE OF DRACULA: who doubled Lon plunging off the cliff into the ocean? One of the few new stunts I noticed when I watched it again last night, other than Carey Loftin's rigorous doubling for Onslow Stevens when he's pursued by the angry mob.

Edited by: georgechastain at: 10/19/05 11:06 am

georgechastain (10/19/05 11:10 am)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------In my overweening zeal to defend Parker's presence In FMTWM, I quoted the wrong consensus report! If anybody received my original post as single e-mail, I spotted the error and have corrected the quote to refer to FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN. My abject apologies -- it's easy to see how mistakes can be initiated, no matter how well-intended the writer.

George Chastain Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------161

TomWeaver999 (10/19/05 11:37 am)

Re: HOUSE OF DRACULA ------<< Back to HOUSE OF DRACULA: who doubled Lon plunging off the cliff into the ocean? <<

Dunno .... but for you "triviots" out there, Carey Loftin told me that Ludwig Stossel's stunt double (falling out of the moving wagon) was named Sailor Vincent.

Joe Karlosi (10/19/05 12:01 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------Wait a sec. There's a still with Lon and his stand-in from HOUSE OF DRAC. I think the guy was Palmer (this is from memory)? If I recall, he was giving Chaney a sip through a straw (don't ask me what of). ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

taraco (10/19/05 12:03 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (So far) ------>>I'll be very disappointed if after all this palaver our findings are so tentative and dubious about Eddie Parker's involvement.

The list isn't finalized yet; perhaps it was too definite about Perkins; too tentative about Parker.

More discussion could lead to adjustments for sure. david

Ted Newsom (10/19/05 12:15 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------George, George, come back from the Dark Side! Don't be drawn in! You've got to fight it!

Hey, plenty of people were willing to write off Glenn Strange in HOUSE on the basis of frame grabs. Ever have to give a urine sample? They want you to start, grab some from mid-flow, fill 'er up, then continue as you always would. So it is with frame-captures. By taking individual pictures out of context, we have photographically "proved" that it could not possibly be Glenn Strange dragging Karloff (or Loftin) across the castle back yard. Yes, of course, it's obviously him at the beginning of the shot, and then later at the end of the shot, and, OK, the shot is continuous, and, yeah, only about three seconds long, but somehow those wacky Hollywood movie magicians back in '44 Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------162 substituted a grimacing look-not-alike right smack dab inna mittle of the sequence for a few frames, and the guy manages to duplicate Glenn Strange's movements precisely before and after this devilish substitution.

And that phantom stuntman (known around the lot as "the Dummy") who took over the strenuous scenes of Chaney laying down in a bed and on a table, on those days when ol' Lon was standing-up drunk and couldn't manage to recline... and the howly-jowly photo double who cringes from the fire in the same film-- that can't be Chaney pretending to be on fire, he's got his face scrunched up (where on earth did they find a stuntman who looked like he was smuggling a frog in his throat? Or are we just glad to see him?)

Bustin' yer chops, guy, but Perkins has the chin dimple in the center of his chin. Parker (sometimes) has one at the bottom of his chin. It's all about the position of the hole.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/19/05 12:20 pm

TomWeaver999 (10/19/05 12:25 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------<< Wait a sec. There's a still with Lon and his stand-in from HOUSE OF DRAC. I think the guy was Palmer <<

Going by memory (too lazy to get up), it's Joe PALMA.

But a stand-in doesn't appear in a movie. A stand-in is a guy (or gal) roughly the same size as the actor, the same coloring, whatever, and this person stands on the set, in the right spot, as the camera focusses and the lights are set up, etc. You never see 'em in the movie, though.

From the vaults of trivia: The midget lady who played the Martian Intelligence (the head in the globe) in INVADERS FROM MARS was the stand-in for the little girl wandering in the desert in THEM!

Edited by: TomWeaver999 at: 10/19/05 12:28 pm

Joe Karlosi (10/19/05 12:44 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (So far) ------Quote: ------But a stand-in doesn't appear in a movie. A stand-in is a guy (or gal) roughly the same size as the actor, the same coloring, whatever, and this person stands on the set, in the right spot, as the camera focusses and the lights are set up, etc. You never see 'em in the movie, though. ------

In a desperate attempt to save face, I recall Carey Loftin also being referred to as Onslow Stevens' "stand-in" in the same magazine feature, with photos next to Chaney/Palma (both pics were out of FM). :D

So, who did the plunge into the water? ------Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------163

"It's MORE ... than a hobby!" Ted Newsom (10/19/05 1:10 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------On HOUSE, let's not forget the two non-Frankie action scenes, the prison collapse (although it actually looks like both Karloff and Naish in that), and the Dracula chase. That's a day or more of at least six stuntmen, for Lampini & Daniel, Dracula, and the three pursuing horseback riders. That could be Perkins' day or so of work as noted above.

georgechastain (10/19/05 1:32 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------Quote: ------Perkins has the chin dimple in the center of his chin. Parker (sometimes) has one at the bottom of his chin. It's all about the position of the hole. ------

All of the following has already been presented in previous posts, but I feel compelled to play the dimple card again in support of Eddie Parker.

The chin thingee was the single most compelling bit of evidence that persuaded me that it's Parker, not Perkins, busting off the lab table.

Perkins has a DIMPLE in the center of his chin as you said. Parker has a CLEFT that's often not visible in his studio portraits, but does show up more clearly in other photos previously presented here.

Perkins also has deep creases in the side of his face, even at rest, and these are not present, or only slightly indicated, in most of Parker's portraits. Something similar does show up when he smiles broadly though, and I believe the same sort of lines would appear clearly on Parker when he tucks his chin, like they do on everybody else with some meat on their bones.

Parker has full lips, which Perkins does not (that almost swayed me to Parker for the ice sequence, except for that dimple! It's still a bit of a coin toss to me, but I lean toward Perkins in that scene).

Parker's philtrum (centered vertical depression on top lip under nose) and his top lip conform to the guy on the table, as well as the contour of the jaw (very different from Perkins) and cheek, the general proportions of the face, etc.

Federal Operator 99, some pages of postings back, submitted a beautiful set of 8 images of the stuntman on the lab table, from which I have selected 3 with distinct expressions, along with all of the portrait photos yet presented of Eddie Parker. When he originally posted those images, the Op said that he thought it looked like Parker to him.

Here they are again.

George Chastain Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------164

Joe Karlosi (10/19/05 1:46 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (So far) ------George, I can buy Parker as being the monster bursting the straps. I also think the differences in the two monsters are in their physical activity. Parker (or the monster in the shots who we think is Parker) is slower and makes less facial expression (like the monster with stiff arms who flings the Wolf Man, or the one who bursts off the table, or the one at the top of the stairway with Ilona from the lobbycard). Perkins seems much more animated both facially and bodily (when he's not on ice), like when he scruntches his mouth by fiercely reaching for Ilona, and later when he is stepping back in the water scene and struggling with the Wolf Man. ------Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------165

"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"Edited by: Joe Karlosi at: 10/19/05 1:47 pm Dr Gangrene (10/19/05 1:51 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------George, I agree we shouldn't be too hasty in voting Parker off the castle. To me Parker definitely played the monster at times, like below. I think if someone took every shot we think is parker, put them all together, and every shot we think is perkins, and put those together, we'd pretty shortly be able to tell the difference between them, and sort out our own best guess to who played wha t.

Joe Karlosi (10/19/05 1:54 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------What's with the high forehead, though? Man, that sometimes looks nothing like Parker OR Perkins! One thing I think we'd agree on is that it's the same monster at the top of the steps holding Ilona. ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

taraco (10/19/05 1:59 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------166

Maybe we should just say Gil Perkins and Eddie Parker...

Let me just say again, though: Is this the best thread ever or what? I find this totally engrossing and fascinating (and crazed), as we get deeper and deeper into it! david 'Not this way! Quicksand!' Edited by: taraco at: 10/19/05 2:01 pm

TomWeaver999 (10/19/05 2:00 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (So far) ------I just hate the way the Monster "moves" in some of the shots in the fight. I mean, look at his fingers in the photos above -- completely straight, like the guy playing the Monster thought the Monster was a statue come to life or something.

georgechastain (10/19/05 2:15 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (So far) ------Quote: ------I just hate the way the Monster "moves" in some of the shots in the fight. I mean, look at his fingers in the photos above -- completely straight, like the guy playing the Monster thought the Monster was a statue come to life or something. ------

OMIGOD, Tom! What if it's.... THE DUMMY! They've just sewn it to the shoes and shoulders of Eddie Parker or Lon or whoever's wolfin' it today, like one of those dancing acts!

George Chastain

blackbiped (10/19/05 2:36 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------I was going to mention the stiff arms/fingers as well. The Monster in the fight (as pictured above) seems to be using his arms as giant chopsticks.

With all these different Monsters running around, it's too bad they couldn't have called Karloff in for a day just to give a class. Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------167 Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------168

TomWeaver999 (10/19/05 2:58 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (so far...) ------In the last day or so, somebody posted that you can tell it's a Monster dummy in such-and-such a scene because of the unnatural-looking hands. Well, maybe it was the same guy in the FMTWM stills above, who thought the Monster's arms and fingers should always be stuck in Extend-O mode. Either that or, as George C. just suggested, the dummy got up and started stackin' ass!

Ted Newsom (10/19/05 3:55 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (So far) ------If Parker played the Monster, who played the Wolfman? W're back into this absurd switch and swap arena.

I'm obstanately anti-Parker, the Anti-Christ of Visaria. But I'll almost give on some other guy doing the stiff-arms stuff. In fact, given Tom's observations on the clunkiness of Parker in any other given stunt scene in any other movie, I'm almost predisposed to grant him the dubious honor of being the Windmill Monster. If we footnote this and state unanimously that IF it IS Ed Parker, then he gives the absolutel lousiest physical protrayal of any Frankenstein Monster in cinema history (to include Charles Ogle, Kiwi Kingston, the goof in KISS ME, QUICK and the Italian mook in LADY FRANKENSTEIN), then I'll go along with the crowd.

Still, it is all supposition. Other than Gil Perkins' recollections, we have no-- repeat, NO--contemporary, pre-1966 indication that Ed Parker ever, EVER played the Frankenstein Monster.

Glenn Strange looks like another guy in the H of F blow-ups. The Monster LOOKS like another guy in some of the F MEETS W shots. That doesn't mean it IS some other guy. Why not just say it was Bud Wolff. Or Bud Wolfe. Or Eddie Wolfe. Or Billy deWolfe. Or Billy Dee Williams.

1) Edwin Parker played the Mummy in a 1950s Abbott and Costello movie. He moves spastically like any other Mummy in movie history. Therefore he doubled Lon Chaney in all the Mummy movies.

2) Eddie Parker appeared (credited or uncredited) in a number of 1950s Universal sci-fi films, TARANTULA, THE MOLE PEOPLE, A & C MEET FRANKENSTEIN (maybe...). He worked as a bit player and stuntman in the 1940s. Therefore he played in every 1940s Universal monster movie.

3) Eddie Parker doubled Bela Lugosi in BRIDE OF THE MONSTER (no, he didn't), therefore, he previously doubled Lugosi in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN.

4) Stuntman Gil Perkins said he doubled the Monster in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN, and Eddie Parker doubled Lon Chaney as the werewolf. Therefore Eddie Parker played the Frankenstein Monster in the same movie.

5) Frame blow-ups from F MEETS W show a Monster whose face does not exactly match other frame blow-ups from other scenes, therefore Eddie Parker played the Monster.

6) "Professional stuntman Bart Andrews" (who was neither professional, a stuntman, nor a comtemporary of Parker, Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------169

Perkins, Sharpe, Corrigan, Van Sickle nor anybody else) says he recognized Eddie Parker as the Mummy based on the diffrerence between "Parker's" stature and the "unique curve" of Lon Chaney's "S-shaped spine." Therefore Ed Parker played the Mummy and by extension, assorted other Universal monsters.

Now, what's wrong with this line of thought? It's deductions based on an absolutely unverified premise, working logically BACKWARD from a position that Parker WAS there, so we have to figure out which one he was.

Gentlemen, let's do come along...

federal operator 99 (10/19/05 3:55 pm)

Re: House of Dracula ------Fast forwarding to House of Dracula, here is one of the first frames of Glenn Strange. We can be certain it's Glenn because of the audio interview that he gave Don Glut, in which he states that Lon Chaney came to his rescue (in best St. Bernard fashion!) with a fifth of whiskey to ward off the bone-chilling cold; besides, we all know Glenn does his own "lying down" stunts!:

On to the climax, here we see Glenn getting the high-voltage treatment from Onslow Stevens, and Glenn getting peeved over the resultant shooting of Stevens by Chaney (another "thanks for the bullet" moment)...

Lab chemicals spill and a fire breaks out. The first frame is classic Strange; the other frames could be Strange or a stunt double... Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------170

The jowly monster from Ghost of Frankenstein then makes a return engagement; if it is truly Chaney under the Frank makeup, then Lon holds the distinction of tussling with himself in this sequence!:

The final frames are, I would assume, a stunt-double, ending with the finale of the falling beam lifted from the Ghost of Frankenstein... Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------171

Count Gamula (10/19/05 4:15 pm)

Re: House of Dracula ------Quote: ------The jowly monster from Ghost of Frankenstein then makes a return engagement; if it is truly Chaney under the Frank makeup, then Lon holds the distinction of tussling with himself in this sequence!: ------

It's Chaney, literally warts and all. Kerry Gammill

Joe Karlosi (10/19/05 4:16 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (So far) ------The most curious mystery in this thread now is how Fred Gwynne ever agreed to sign that photo of Herman Munster. ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Dr Gangrene (10/19/05 4:35 pm)

Frankenstein monster - makeup ------Hey Fed op - can you post, side by side, all the shots you have of the monster that you've captured where you think it might be Parker? and also all the ones you think might be Perkins. Again, side by side comparisons might be revealing...

I realize it's a lot of work I'm asking for, so sorry if it sounds like an unreasonable request. But damn, I agree, this IS a great thread - thanks Dave! and Ted, I love your enthusiastic rebuttal of Parker. Good to have all sides represented.

Edited by: Dr Gangrene at: 10/19/05 4:37 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------172 federal operator 99 (10/19/05 6:00 pm)

Re: To Eddie P., from your pal and better half, Fred G. ------Quote: ------The shot of the might-be-Strange next to the one of Herman Munster looks odd in an optical sense, as if some sort of stretching of the image occurred, elongating the upper lip. ------

No, this is an actual expression that Glenn does to affect a look of rage (or is it indigestion?). Here are some more frames in the sequence (note: they have all been cropped to reduce the file size, but the top of each photo actually Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------173 represents the top of the frame on the DVD. As he advances, the top of his head goes literally off screen)... federal operator 99 (10/19/05 6:07 pm)

Re: Frankenstein monster - makeup ------Quote: ------Hey Fed op - can you post, side by side, all the shots you have of the monster that you've captured where you think it might be Parker? ------

Doc, I am in the process of re-rendering the scenes in question (approximately 60 seconds) to one-half and one-quarter speeds. I can provide the footage as a windows meta file (playable on Windows media player) and attach, in turn, to an email, if anybody would care to analyze it on their own computer screens. But, in the process, I've uncovered a couple of more interesting still frames that I hope to post shortly.

Here are the new frames. They are 2nd generation (from the re-rendered, slowed-down original DVD mpeg file). You will note the extremely bulbous nose the monster sports in these several of these: Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------174

Edited by: federal operator 99 at: 10/19/05 6:25 pm

georgechastain (10/19/05 6:25 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (So far) ------We've all been looking at the evidence very hard, and trying to be objective about it. There's no real evidence, is there, other than the old conjecture, that's it's Eddie Parker in GHOST? It's gotta be SOMEBODY, since some of the stunts are dangerous -- letting Lon get near that much flame anytime after noon might have been catastrophic. So it COULD have been Ed... or Gil Perkins, who said he did the flattop stunts in several (at least two?) Frankenstein films. I can't tell WHO it is from any of the evidence presented. Is there a good still around of that rooftop bit with the Janet Ann Gallow dummy? Maybe a blowup of the face would show something. But if Ed just simply must be sent off Monster Island, let it be for THAT film, since I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary, and I understand that the notion that he's in the picture at all might be based on hearsay and misconception. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------175

But I honestly think the lab table guy looks like Parker, who has a distinctive sort of Joe-Sawyerish potato face that I've learned to recognize in westerns and serials. I'm not trying to see something that's not there because I have an axe to grind, I'm really interested in the truth, insofar as it can be determined. To me, NONE of the other frames we've been examining reveal so clearly the man behind the makeup, including some of the other FMTWM sequences I think MAY be Parker because they don't look anything like the bits we're calling Perkins, and I'm satisfied that Parker IS in the picture. Frankly, I have a hard time seeing Perkins in any of the frames, but since I believe his statement that he did the part, I'm trying very hard to see HIM in it. The lab table sequence LOOKS like Parker to me, and less like Perkins than anything else I've seen in the film.

Ted's position is essentially the same as it was in his earliest postings, despite visible evidence that I find very convincing. OK, so we differ, but that doesn't mean that anybody is working backward from an unverified logical premise. On the contrary, just because Bart Andrews was wrong about some things, doesn't mean he has to be wrong about everything. We're trying to determine the truth by a careful analysis that wasn't possible in the early 60s. It's a little easier to approach the job if we have a few possiblities to work with, and I think that's all we've been doing -- I'd sure hate to try to get mug shots of every stunt guy working in the 40's and try to compare them frame by frame.

I find it very puzzling that Eddie Parker might reluctantly be permitted to be credited for FMTWM, but only if he can be made to look ridiculous for his inept stuntwork. Gil Perkins, whose word is gold, is quoted by Tom Weaver in IT CAME FROM WEAVER FIVE as saying:

"I knew Eddie very well. He doubled different guys [in monster movies] -- he doubled Lon Chaney, for instance, in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN. Eddie sometimes doubled "Duke" Wayne, too. Eddie was good at fights and on the ground, but he wasn't any good up high. I remember we were doing SEVEN SINNERS [1940] with Wayne, which was one of the great action pictures of our time in my opinion, and Eddie was supposed to do a big swing across a barroom and (when he came to the end of a swing) dive onto a group of guys fighting on the floor. But Dave Sharpe had to do it for him."

Even if Perkins' word for Parker's competence (despite his failings with acrobatic high dives) isn't sufficient (in THIS case), I have to wonder how a clumsy, oafish guy who always looked silly on the screen, and had to have other people do the really difficult or dangerous work for him, could possibly stay employed as a stunt man for several decades, working in hundreds of films for many of the best, most professional action directors in the business, side by side with other professionals who often depended on him for their own safety? And work as the stunt double for the notoriously demanding John Wayne to boot.

Quote: ------If Parker played the Monster, who played the Wolfman? W're back into this absurd switch and swap arena. ------

It's been suggested that Lon Chaney might've done some of the less-dangerous sequences himself, since most of it was less rowdy than some of the stuff he did with Brod Crawford elsewhere. AND since Parker wasn't very good at the high stuff, perhaps Gil Parker donned the furry outfit for the scene where he gets shoved off that high contraption and takes a hard fall? And then, having the makeup on already, maybe he did some other stuff that same day? Just a thought.

Honest to Ramboona, I'm not trying to make anybody doubt their religion here. I hope we're all trying to put our preconceptions aside and look at the evidence that's so amazingly available to us these days, thanks to modern technical miracles.

George Chastain Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------176

federal operator 99 (10/19/05 6:46 pm)

Re: To Eddie P., from your pal and better half, Fred G. ------Quote: ------If Parker played the Monster, who played the Wolfman? We're back into this absurd switch and swap arena. ------

At the risk of sounding heretical (and being especially irksome to Ted), what if Parker played the Monster and Perkins played the Wolf Man in these scenes? For instance, here are two frames after the Monster tosses the Wolf Man into the lab table. If that is, in fact, a double for Chaney, he looks more like Perkins than Parker to me (i.e., I think he has sharper features than the "potato-faced" Parker).

BTW, the third frame is Perkins' "Teenage" Monster...

Edited by: federal operator 99 at: 10/19/05 6:47 pm

Ted Newsom (10/19/05 7:24 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANK ENSTEIN (So far) ------It's conceiva ble somebod Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------177 y played switch and swap with stunt men.

It's conceivable they reshot sequences and a specific stunt man wasn't available, so they got somebody else.

It's conceivable that this short (what, 90 second? Two minute?) fight sequence dragged on for so many days that one or the other stuntmen had a dental appointment and couldn't show up on Friday.

It's conceivable that after blocking out the fight gags and jumps for the director, the director then told the boys to forget about what they planned to do; no, no, Ginger, you lead this time, and Fred will follow.

It's conceivable that they made a last minute switch in Monsters in a film that already had a visual credibility problem with Lugosi and whomever was doubling him.

It's conceivable that Gil Perkins was fullashhttt.

It's conceivable that the phenomenally uncoordinated Ed Parker was hauled away from his day job stealing shoes off corpses to shine with his speciality, operating-table strap-bursting, an admittedly niche market.

It's conceivable that even though frame blow-ups of a man we know to be Glenn Strange in a film made in 1944 do not look like him, that this same phenomenon doesn't apply in 1943.

It's even conceivable that At Lassst Vee Haff Prooven Dat Professional Stuntman Bart Andrews Vas All Ri-i-i-ight! (Or at least right after all.)

But you gotta do add up a LOTTA conceivables to make this make sense.

(And John Wayne probably would have no say at all about what stuntman gets hired in a film made by Universal that early in Wayne's A-picture career. And notice, Eddie Parker doesn't seem to show up in many-- any?-- later Wayne movies...)

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/19/05 7:28 pm

taraco (10/19/05 7:36 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (So far) ------I wonder if it's possible that Eddie Parker was simply stronger than Gil Perkins.

I'm a slight guy, so picking up women and carrying them around is not the easiest thing for me.

But I gotta say, the table guy sure does look more like Parker than Perkins to me.

All that said, Ted is right when he notes the only actual testimony we have is Perkins saying he was in the film, was in the fight, and remembers carrying Ilona.

At the same time, even though the monster magazine world was NOT mainstream Hollywood in the 60s, I still find it irrefutable that if Eddie Parker being in MEETS was wrong, it was never rebutted, corrected or questioned by anyone for almost four decades. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------178

Parker's name was in articles, in books, in magazines, and then on the Internet and no contemporaries ever came forward and said wait, that was Gil, not Eddie.

Yes, Perkins said it, and I don't doubt him for a second.

But I think the fact that the 'urban legend' of Eddie Parker lasted an awfully long time, so long that I think it must have had some truth to it. This isn't wishful thinking, it's plain common sense.

Eddie Parker as the monster should have been corrected by someone -- including the crew and cast members who yes, were still alive in the 60s and 70s. That it wasn't gives the Parker participation some kind of standing in my eyes.

Is it possible Parker never played the Monster at all? Yes, that's possible. But how could that have taken hold all these years without someone saying, hey, wait.

It's not quite the same as RFK and Marilyn and the like. I don't think.

I'd also say this: If the visual evidence just from MEETS as presented in the pages above shows anything, it shows an inconsistent look to the Monster. Ted's right about angles and all, but it really does look like a different guy in the ice, on the wagon, in the fight, even WITHIN the fight.

We need an medical examiner, is what we need!

Anyhow, that's where I am. Rock solid that Perkins played the Monster; but still convinced Parker did, too. As unsatisfying as that feels... david

Ted Newsom (10/19/05 7:38 pm)

Re: To Eddie P., from your pal The Duck. Er, Duke ------Well, I was off by a factor of 1. Parker's got a bit in FLAME OF THE BARBARY COAST, a Joe Kane western for Republic, with John Wayne. Parker did a lot of stunting (or strap-bursting) at Republic.

Ominously, this title also pops up in Parker's CV:

* I Wouldn't Be in Your Shoes (1948) .... Policeman

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/19/05 7:39 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------179 georgechastain (10/19/05 7:55 pm)

Re: To Eddie P., from your pal The Duck. Er, Duke ------Quote: ------And notice, Eddie Parker doesn't seem to show up in many-- any?-- later Wayne movies...) ------

I'm no expert on this, but Eddie Parker NOT doubling the Duke from the late 40's on may have less to do with his qualifications than with the fact that John Wayne found another stunt man that he got along with very well in Chuck Roberson, starting (I think) with ANGEL AND THE BADMAN in 1947. I've read Chuck's autobiography, FALL GUY: 30 YEARS AS THE DUKE'S DOUBLE, and can highly recommend it to anybody interested in stuff like this.

George Chastain

Bill Warren (10/19/05 8:12 pm)

Re: To Eddie P., from your pal and better half, Fred G. ------Well, Glenn Strange did have a very long upper lip, no doubt the reason he frequently wore a mustache. That series of photos suggests that over the course of them, he's tipping his head back slightly while lowering his jaw without opening his mouth.

Ted sez:

Quote: ------It's conceivable they reshot sequences and a specific stunt man wasn't available, so they got somebody else. ------

I suspect this is the most likely explanation. There would be no reason to reshoot the whole (brief) fight, just those individual shots that were unsatisfactory. This isn't uncommon. How many individual shots are in that sequence, anyway?

Edited by: Bill Warren at: 10/19/05 8:18 pm

federal operator 99 (10/19/05 8:29 pm)

Re: Meeting Bud & Lou ------I will be out of town on work for the next 24 hours and, anticipating that the thread will eventually meander to A&C Meet Frankenstein in the interim, I wanted to post these vidcaps of scenes that possibly did not feature Glenn Strange as the Monster... Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------180

I recall that Glenn himself once said that it was Lon who crashed through the gate, and it looks to be Chaney stalking through the woods, too. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------181

Then we have another unidentified barrel tosser (but it looks like Glenn to me), followed by a rather different-looking ladder flinger. Finally, we have the return engagement of "Frankendummy", swapping an ice-block for an inferno...

georgechastain (10/19/05 8:39 pm)

Re: Meeting Bud & Lou (Who IS this guy?!!?) ------I gotta tell ya , Federal Operator 99, I have every right to be pissed at you because you've trumped every visual scoop I've posted, but I'm so overwhelmed with admiration of the pictures you've come up with that I just can't be mad at you about such wonderful images. Please keep up the great work! They contribute immensely to these discussions

George Chastain

Count Gamula (10/19/05 8:45 pm)

Re: To Eddie P., from your pal and better half, Fred G. ------Quote: ------It's conceivable they reshot sequences and a specific stunt man wasn't available, so they got somebody else. ------

Or one of the stuntman could have gotten hurt after filming some of the fight scenes. Even a pro can twist an ankle or wrist or something doing a free-for-all fight in a heavy make-up, costume and boots. Kerry Gammill

Trust Me Themes (10/19/05 8:47 pm)

Re: To Eddie P., from your pal The Duck. Er, Duke ------Quote: ------Eddie Parker as the monster should have been corrected by someone -- including the crew and cast members who yes, were still alive in the 60s and 70s. That it wasn't gives the Parker participation some kind of standing in my eyes. ------

Well, you must remember that the actors at the time of filming FMTWM had NO IDEA that the film would be vigorously discussed 60+ years later. I don't think they really set out to remember anything, and probably didn't care to much who the stuntmen were at the time. Since Universal was like a factory churning out films like they did in the 40's, I'm sure it was a "Lets do this Frankenstein film and move on to whatever's next" attitude by many of the cast, therefore names of stuntmen probably didn't stand out in their memory.

Not to mention, if indeed there were quite a number of stuntmen playing The Monster in MEETS, that would just be Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------182 confusing to try and say "Well hey it's Ed Parker....no wait, that Perkins guy...no wait he looks new...aw, hell with it Frankie # 3" (Just imagine the Monster(s) from the MEETS cast lined up in numbered shirts to fight that dynamic duo of Adam West and Burt Ward).

But seriously, I would just doubt the recollections of anyone but the stuntmen themselves to be that clear.

Livio

Count Gamula (10/19/05 8:50 pm)

Re: Meeting Bud & Lou ------Quote: ------I recall that Glenn himself once said that it was Lon who crashed through the gate, and it looks to be Chaney stalking through the woods, too. ------

No, Glenn said he managed to knock down the gate even though he was hobbling some on his hurt ankle. Lon only did the scene of the Monster throwing Dr. Mornay out the window, and managed to dislocate the stunt woman's arm (or some such injury) by throwing her into the bottom of the window frame.

Kerry Gammill

TomWeaver999 (10/19/05 8:58 pm)

Re: To Eddie P., from your pal and better half, Fred G . ------>> even though the monster magazine world was NOT mainstream Hollywood in the 60s, I still find it irrefutable that if Eddie Parker being in MEETS was wrong, it was never rebutted, corrected or questioned by anyone for almost four decades. <<

Welllllllll ... I don't know that Hollywood guys like oldtime stuntmen, or Ilona Massey, or ANYbody connected with any of these movies ever knew that magazines like MERRY MIRTHFUL MONSTERS (or whatever mag the original nonsense-filled article was in) even existed. If somebody I went to school with is now writing about our long-ago exploits in some silly children's magazine, and every article is full of mistakes, I'm sure I'D never find out -- but that doesn't mean they aren't mistakes.

Gil Perkins HAD to have been in FMTWM -- the subject came up out of the blue when I was talking with him and he described the climactic scene perfectly. And he was in 2000 movies, probably 1800 of which were better than FMTWM, so ... no reason to fib that he was in it if he wasn't. I bring this up because ... you seem to think it's odd that no one "in a position to know" ever riffled through one of those monster mags and said, "Hold on a second -- Eddie Parker wasn't the Monster in that movie." Well, no one "in a position to know" ever riiffled through one of those mags and said, "Hold on a second -- Gil Perkins WAS the Monster in that movie" -- and yet he WAS.

Did I fill that sentence up with enough double-negatives that my point got lost? Probably! Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------183

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------184

Ted Newsom (10/19/05 11:16 pm)

Re: To Eddie P., from your pal The Duck. Er, Duke ------I didn't mean to imply that Ed Parker was John Wayne's stuntman, only that he was never employed on any Wayne picture save one, which was probably the result of him working consistently at Republic (for which the Barbary Coast movie was shot.) Wayne was intensely loyal to friends, from writers to actors (Dobie Carey, John Agar, Jim Davis, among a bunch) and threw them work whenever possible. That he didn't with Parker-- despite the fact that they'd been in oaters together in the 30s, and Parker worked until he died in 1960-- indicates to me that they weren't particularly good pals.

I think there are THREE cuts in A & C that show Chaney. There's the pick-up of the gag of throwing Lenore Aubert's double through the window;there's the shot of Bud and Lou racing out of the lab with the Monster in pursuit, and a wider shot, from in the main hallway, similar angle but the Monster is much further from camera.

In these three shots, the Monster walks and lumbers with an almost ape-like swinging of his arms, and hunches rather than looms (as Strange does). He also looks just a squidge shorter than Strange,though this may be because he's slightly hunching over.

There's nothing I can see in GHOST that has this loping, arm-swinging walk, but it's not unlike his portrayal of the Monster three years later on TV.

That, plus the fact that the face LOOKS like Chaney, makes me think it IS Chaney.

And not Eddie Parker.

(Too bad we didn't get frame grabs of THAT...)

Ted Newsom (10/19/05 11:24 pm)

Re: Meeting Bud & Lou, with a retro look at Non-Ed ------Quote: ------At the same time, even though the monster magazine world was NOT mainstream Hollywood in the 60s, I still find it irrefutable that if Eddie Parker being in MEETS was wrong, it was never rebutted, corrected or questioned by anyone for almost four decades. ------

Davie, Davie, Davie... For one thing, this discussion is probably the only time a bunch of people who might actually know what they're talking about ever actually examined the subject. Hey, I was 14 when that Don Glut thing came out; who was I to second guess S-shaped spines? (And remember, even Don dismisses a lot of that stuff as youthful enthusiasm and exaggeration.)

How much scholarship was done on monster movies between 1945 and, say, 1970? Zip. There was the Carlos Clarens book, some Everson, the useless Drake Douglas book... did anybody bother with our favorite bit of esoterica? Nope. (Neither, by the way, did any of them mention Parker by name... hmmm... the dog in the Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------185 night-time...)

The fact is, Eddie Parker was in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN. As the Wolf Man. In the climax.

SteveZodiak (10/20/05 12:23 am)

Re: To Eddie P., from your pal and better half, Fred G. ------For whatever it is worth at this stage of the game, it definately appears to me that three different guys are wearing the monster make-up in FMTWM. Today is only Yesterday's Tomorrow

taraco (10/20/05 12:43 am)

Who played the Monster (Bud and Lou meet...) ------Well, it's pretty hard to make fun of ear whorls and spine curls when an equal case is based on dimples and creases.

(And the Zodiak may have something with his appalling notion that THREE stunt monsters roamed in FMTWM!)

That said, it's indeed on to ABBOTT AND COSTELLO MEET FRANKENSTEIN.

I for one had always heard that Chaney only doubled briefly when Glenn Strange got hurt. To think he was used so extensively -- three scenes -- is a much bigger contribution.

I wouldn't be dissuaded by the jerky motions or the difference from GHOST. Knowing it's a comedy, Chaney likely felt he had to overdo it.

Chaney doing a Strange impression, so to speak. david

Ted Newsom (10/20/05 1:08 am)

Re: To Eddie P., from your pal and better half, Fred G. ------Taraco-- it's actually not three scenes--- one scene, three shots. Considering the window gag probably took a half a day to set up right (and not injure people this time), that was probably first up (with the lighting rigged from the day before); then the unit moved into the main hall to finish off the lab stuff (with the boys and the Monster running out of it) into the French farce business with all the rooms.

Come to think of it, they'd probably shoot the window gag in the morning... then break for lunch... which might Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------186 account for the Monster lurching and looking a little unsteady in those last two shots...

taraco (10/20/05 1:37 am)

Re: Bud and Lou.. . ------So do we think it was Glenn Strange throwing the barrels and walking through fire in the final pier shot, as shown in FedOp's great screen grabs above?

Edited by: taraco at: 10/20/05 1:38 am

Count Gamula (10/20/05 2:15 am)

Re: Bud and Lou... ------I think it's Chaney throwing the girl through the window and in the following shot of the Monster coming toward Bud and Lou as Lou is getting off the table. But I don't think the next shot of the Monster as A&C run out the door is Chaney. He looks taller, his shoulders are broader and he loses the "lope" he had in the last shot.

As for the final scene on the dock, I don't think any of the long shots are Glenn Strange. It doesn't look like him or move like him. Those are A&C's doubles in all the long shots too so it looks like the whole scene was considered a stunt scene with the stars only shooting close-up inserts.

Kerry Gammill Edited by: Count Gamula at: 10/20/05 2:21 am

federal operator 99 (10/20/05 3:57 am)

Re: To Eddie P., from your pal and better half, Fred G. ------Does anyone think the stunt double jumping off the pier look like Eddie Parker (he of the potato-face and bulbous nose and intermittent chin dimple)? :) Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------187

...And isn't that Glenn also? Hard to tell.

Bill Warren (10/20/05 12:15 pm)

Re: Bud and Lou... ------I've always assumed that Chaney's brief turn as the Monster in A&C had him picking up the doctor, throwing her out the window, then turning and advancing on Bud & Lou while knocking a gurney aside. Nothing else. I assume it's Strange on the dock; he's obviously in a couple of shots with fire in the foreground. I always wondered if the Monster we see in longer shots with a whole heck of a lot of fire and parts of the dock visible--just before he falls through--was actually some kind of mechanical contraption--a robot, if you will.

Wolfman Joe (10/20/05 1:46 pm)

Re: Bud and Lou... ------The monster coming through the woods, after crashing thru the gate, looks alot like the gurney-flipping monster in the lab - that is, un-Strange-like. I used to think the gate-crashing monster was also not Strange, but on DVD it looks more like him now. So, I always assumed it was Chaney in the lab and lumbering down the slope towards the pier - is it an absolute fact that Lon donned the makeup for Strange? We have confirmation that this wasn't just a post-lunch yarn spun by ol' Creighton?

Count Gamula (10/20/05 1:52 pm)

Re: Bud and Lou... ------Quote: ------I always wondered if the Monster we see in longer shots with a whole heck of a lot of fire and parts of the dock visible--just before he falls through--was actually some kind of mechanical contraption--a robot, if you will. ------

I doubt if there was anything mechanical in the dock Frank. It's probably basically a life-size dummy/puppet. The feet could have been connected to some kind of sliding boards built into tracks in the dock. They could slide them along one by one to make him shuffle into the flames. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------188

Kerry Gammill

Count Gamula (10/20/05 1:57 pm)

Re: Bud and Lou... ------Quote: ------is it an absolute fact that Lon donned the makeup for Strange? We have confirmation that this wasn't just a post-lunch yarn spun by ol' Creighton? ------

The info came from an interview with Strange, not Chaney. In the same interview he said it was him knocking down the gate even though he had a hurt foot and was wearing a bandage or cast under his boot.

Kerry Gammill

Jacks Garage (10/20/05 2:03 pm)

Bud & Lou & Lon & Glenn ------I'm pretty sure Glenn backed that up in his interview, that Lon did him a favor and did the scene for him.

HalLane (10/20/05 2:09 pm)

Re: To Eddie P., from your pal and better half, Fred G. ------Fed/Op, you have good eyes, sir. That jumping double certainly could be Eddie Parker. At least, he looks like all the profile shots of him I have here (which I'd be happy to share, by the way, if I only knew how. I've gotten as far as putting some @ ImageShack, but what to do with all these URLs/login codes/image codes I have no idea. I'll go to that new tech thread if anyone wants to talk me thru it).

And yes, Glenn Strange always holds his hands just like that in all those pressbook photos, but I'll have to look closer at the face.

Edited by: HalLane at: 10/20/05 2:34 pm

Jacks Garage (10/20/05 2:16 pm)

Re: Bud & Lou & Lon & Glenn ------Quote: ------No, Glenn said he managed to knock down the gate even though he was hobbling some on his hurt ankle. Lon only Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------189 did the scene of the Monster throwing Dr. Mornay out the window, and managed to dislocate the stunt woman's arm (or some such injury) by throwing her into the bottom of the window frame. ------

I always thought this happened when Glenn hurt his ankle doing the stunt originally. By the way, this thread seems to have a life all it's own. It just keeps going, and getting better all the time. I'd love to see this make it into print, with all the frame blowups. This is a subject that's been LONG overdue for examination. Thanks everyone!

TomWeaver999 (10/20/05 2:47 pm)

Useless factoid ------This is a useless factoid, but I'll toss it in anyway: Gil Perkins was born in Australia and never lost that accent. I think he could tone it down a little when he wanted to -- for instance, when he had a speaking part in a movie. But when you were just talking to him, you KNEW he was Australian within the first few words (and from some of the expressions that he used). So, when you read his anecdotes, or picture him on a Frankenstein set in the makeup, hear in your mind's ear Crocodile Dundee's voice coming out of the Monster.

Ted Newsom (10/20/05 2:47 pm)

Re: Bud & Lou & Lon & Glenn ------Why does this Phantom of the Parker keep showing up? This is like seeing UFOs in cloud formations.

I think it was Greg Mank who found a letter from the brass at Universal to Chaney thanking him for stepping in for Strange. The girl-throwing AND the following shot, with the Monster lumbering, knocking the table out of the way, have to be Chaney. This sort of ape-like swinging of his arms, although it isn't in evidence in GHOST, reminds me of his shambling performance on TALES OF TOMORROW three years later. That, plus the fact that the FACE looks like Chaney... it's only 2 shots (3? Isn't there a wider shot, from a position in the main hallway, toward the lab door?) could well have been shot sequentially, which makes sense. The girl-throwing shot was the last in the lab sequence, after which all the action moves into the castle with the French farce stuff of going in and out of various rooms. Certainly the 2 (3?) Lonster shots could have been done in a single day: finish the lab interior, break for lunch, rig for the castle hallway and wrap the lab. And if they were shot after lunch, that might account for the rather lumbering Monster walk...

PS Glenn Strange said he tripped on a cable on the floor when he was carrying the double of Sandra and stumbled "because those boots are just filled with cork, they don't have no counter in them." [counterweight, I guess)

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/20/05 2:50 pm

blackbiped (10/20/05 3:22 pm)

Re: Bud & Lou & Lon & Glenn ------Just one last thing to add to the FMTWM discussion -- it might be interesting if someone with Photoshop skills could take one of those really good pictures of Parker and Perkins and add the Monster-makeup features to it. Or, it Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------190 might look silly, I don't know.

As for the shots of the Monster on the burning dock -- Glenn Strange didn't even have to be there, did he? The close-up of him with the fire at the bottom of the frame could've been shot anywhere. Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

Ted Newsom (10/20/05 4:59 pm)

Strange Dock ------Assuming Strange was the guy who walked DOWN the pier in the first part of the scene-- and I think the characteristic outstretched arms and flatly cupped hands indicate this-- there should be no reason not to think it's him throwing the barrel(s) at Bud & Lou, and/or turning with the ladder over his head. The fire is a goodly ways away from his position on the end of the dock-- and, heck, he'd already done the sagebrush-inferno scene in HOUSE. So you cut in the close shot of him and a foreground gas flame, and cut to the dummy shot in the flames themselves... voila.

Joe Karlosi (10/20/05 5:51 pm)

Re: Bud & Lou & Lon & Glenn ------Quote: ------I've always assumed that Chaney's brief turn as the Monster in A&C had him picking up the doctor, throwing her out the window, then turning and advancing on Bud & Lou while knocking a gurney aside. Nothing else. ------

Mostly Ditto --

Specifically, I think it's Glenn Strange who picks the woman up and walks across the room with her...

...then it's Chaney from the back who flings her through the window, turns and advances and knocks a gurney aside.

Screenshots, please? (I know they're coming)! :) ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Trust Me Themes (10/20/05 6:29 pm)

Re: Bud & Lou & Lon & Glenn ------I believe it is Strange standing on the dock throwing things, also in the scene before walking onto the dock.

Just pay careful attention to how he walks and you'll notice he almost seems to be favoring his right foot/ankle. Plus there was never a doubt in my mind that Strange was the monster in every shot except when Sandra gets thrown out the window, and the monster tosses the operating table aside. Every other shot of The Monster afterwards looks, Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------191 walks, and acts like Strange.

Count Gamula (10/20/05 7:20 pm)

Re: Bud & Lou & Lon & Glenn ------I disagree that it's Strange on the dock except in the close-ups. He looks a little bulkier, doesn't stay quite as stiff and the face looks different, almost as if it's a mask. Also, it could have been slightly dangerous for Strange to be that close to the edge of the dock and throwing things wearing the restrictive make-up and costume, especially if it was filmed ater he hurt his ankle. And there was fire involved in the scene too. It seems logical to me that they would decide a stand-in would be best for those shots. Kerry Gammill

blackbiped (10/20/05 7:32 pm)

Re: Bud & Lou & Lon & Glenn ------Quote: ------almost as if it's a mask ------

Chaney wore a mask as the Wolf Man, so it's logical that the stuntmen would wear them too (post-Pierce). Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

Bill Warren (10/20/05 7:59 pm)

Re: Bud & Lou & Lon & Glenn ------Quote: ------It's probably basically a life-size dummy/puppet. The feet could have been connected to some kind of sliding boards built into tracks in the dock ------

That's pretty much what I meant. I didn't mean a robot like unto Gort.

WHEN did Chaney wear a mask as the Wolf Man? I assumed that whoever did the A&C makeups followed the usual practice of using appliances.

Tim Lucas VW (10/20/05 8:12 pm)

Re: Bud & Lou & Lon & Glenn Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------192

------As I recall, there's also a shot of the Monster crashing through a door, or coming through a door, during the chase where it's plainly Chaney in the makeup. I remember writing down all the timecodes of what I thought were Chaney substitutions for Strange in a VW review, but it's not in the ABBOTT & COSTELLO MEET THE MONSTERS laserdisc review in VW 24. : (

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------193 nightmarekey (10/20/05 10:36 pm)

Re: House of Dracula ------Y'know, dammit, I may have to concede that as well... never noticed that wart...

nightmarekey (10/20/05 10:43 pm)

Re: To Eddie P., from your pal and better half, Fred G. ------Quote: ------this is an actual expression that Glenn does to affect a look of rage (or is it indigestion?). ------

Actually, it's a rather good "build-up" for a Lugosian FMTWM "closeup snarl" (except we never get the audible snarl)... Darn the luck!

blackbiped (10/21/05 12:22 am)

Re: Bud & Lou & Lon & Glenn ------Quote: ------WHEN did Chaney wear a mask as the Wolf Man? I assumed that whoever did the A&C makeups followed the usual practice of using appliances. ------

It looks like a mask to me, since Chaney's face is so immobile. In all his previous Wolf Man appearances, he does a lot of very expressive snarling, but here his face barely moves if at all. Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------194

The Batman of Gotham (10/21/05 12:43 am)

Re: House of Dracula ------

Maybe not a 'mask' in quite the same way we think of it... but, this prefabricated Wolfman makeup is definitely more 'mask-like' than Jack Peirce's tedious on-the-spot applications. It also appears as though we're seeing more of Chaney's actual nose instead of the narrow canine nose as seen in Peirce's built-up snout.

- GJS Edited by: The Batman of Gotham at: 10/21/05 12:50 am

Ted Newsom (10/21/05 1:52 am)

Re: To Eddie P., from your pal and better half, Fred G . ------Different nose, but it covers the whole schnozz. Difference being that whomever designed it decided not to do the elongated sort-kinda wolf snout dating back to Henry Hull. One of the supposedly big-deal reasons Pierce was given the show in favor of Bud Westmore was the latter's "new techniques," which presaged today's appliances-- chunks of pre-formed stuff, like a nose, a forehead, a chin, whatever. "Pierce didn't move with the times," was the refrain. Well, that was a exaggeration, since he'd been using pre-fab pieces on speciality make-ups for a long time: the headpiece on Frankie dating back to '31, Chaney's nose, the overall mask for the mummy and so on. I think they were made to order for him by Ellis Berman, who was a specialist in rubber goodies (his family is still around).

I think Emile LaVigne was the make-up guy who did Chaney on this film; Jack Kevan (I think...) did Strange. Whether or not they actually designed the make-ups, who knows. I always thought the A/C Frankie had a kind of spiritual kinship with Kevan's (uncredited) stuff in the 50s--Mr. Hyde, the ape man, the Creature, the Piedras Blancas ripsnorter. But if you believe the official Universal party line (pardon... Universal-International), Bud Westmore did it all.

roheimiana (10/21/05 7:17 am)

Chaney Wolf Man "Mask" ------Here is a copy of the latex appliance worn by Chaney in A&C Meet Frankenstein. It covered the nose, part of the cheeks, and upper lip and probably allowed for less control of the facial muscles in these areas. My understanding is that this prosthetic was made by Jack Kevan from a mold of ChaneyÆs face but I cannot cite any authority other than hearsay within the mask-making community. Since Bob Burns owns an original of this appliance, he could likely provide more information.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------195

Cool Breeze II (10/21/05 10:10 am)

Re: House of Dracula ------The most likely reason to assume that Glenn Strange doesn't appear in the scenes on the dock is the fact that these were probably shot by a second unit during the night on the backlot lake at Universal. With the exception of the actor playing the young doctor who pours the gasoline, there are no recognizable face shots. It is all long shots, meant to be supplemented with insert shots of the principals, like the tank shots of Bud and Lou, and close-ups of Strange approaching the fire.

It would have been unnecessary to use actors who had been shooting during the day to come out and shoot all night for an action scene in long shot.

Bob Burns, in the documentary supplement on the original DVD issue of A&C MEET FRANKENSTEIN says that Glenn Strange told him that the walk into the fire was accomplished with a dummy wearing a mask was connected to an overhead wire rig, while the feet were connected to long 2 X 4's which were slid to shuffle the feet.

Count Gamula (10/21/05 10:29 am)

Re: Chaney Wolf Man "Mask" ------I always missed the old wolf-like snout in the A&C make-up. It would have been just as easy to do, and much more comfortable, in foam rubber than the old Jack Pierce materials so it's a shame they didn't try to stick closer to the same look. Chaney wore virtually the same size appliance in all the other Wolf Man films so this one didn't cover any more or less of his face. It always covered from his upper lip to his eyebrows, but the Pierce pieces were probably made of cotton and collodion which were not nearly as plyable and lightweight as the foam rubber pieces. Kerry Gammill

Ted Newsom (10/21/05 11:22 am)

Re: Chaney Wolf Man "Mask" ------With due respect to Cool Breeze (are you the same Cool Breeze who worked crew with me years ago?), all the principal actors were available for a night shoot and they were there on the set; there would be no reason to shoot this all with doubles. Bud and Lou had dialogue on the pier with McDougal and the guy he's with ("He comes one of 'em now!"). The night shoot would've just been scheduled as a night shoot, not on a day when they'd been on the set at 9 (or 11 or 12, in the case of Bud and Lou).

There aren't any outlandish stunts that the actors couldn't do-- 4 guys total jumping off a pier-- but it's possible Lou was doubled by his brother Pat, a chubby look alike who did a lot of Lou's physical stuff when possible. However, the run and hesitation Wilbur does seems vintage Lou, not CostelloMania. Frank Ferguson and the unnamed guy he's with were probably not important enough to have doubles for something as simple as jumping in a lake.

There are 2, perhaps 3 cuts of the Shuffling Board-Foot Monster wading into the flames, intercut with Strange (gotta be him; he wasn't being paid enough for Universal NOT to have used him) walking toward the (rather distant) flames, ladder over his head; and the closer shot with him approaching the foreground fire, possibly a studio shot, but Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------196 just as likely a gas-jet gag rigged up out on the backlot to facilitate the schedule.

Considering the cast and crew would be available for the rest of the scene, from running through the gate to the dock business, and that the lot would be rigged for shooting, it makes more sense to schedule the (single) shot of Bud and Lou sitting in the boat while they were out there, rather than to do one scene on a special day on an interior water tank set. Doesn't mean it DIDN'T happen the way you describe, I'm just looking at this from a breakdown point of view and figuring the faster and simplest way to do it with the fewest moves and the least amount of extra people.

georgechastain (10/21/05 11:29 am)

Eddie, We Hardly Knew Ye ------This isn't about the Frankenstein films per se, but I hope more information about Eddie Parker will be useful.

I always root for the underdog. The heated and often vituperative debate about Eddie Parker's credits has only made me want to look at the disputed films as closely as I can and decide for myself.

In discussions of Eddie Parker's height, a still from RADAR PATROL VS. SPY KING was mentioned in which Parker appears to be considerably shorter than Kirk Alyn. Elsewhere his height was conceded to be 6', about the same as Gil Perkins, and shorter than Lon and Bela.

I haven't seen any authoritative information, but I checked out the first four chapters of RADAR PATROL. Eddie is in all of them, including the scene the still is from. He's the tallest guy in these chapters, looming over Kirk Alyn (apparently by at least 4 inches), Anthony Warde, and even Tom Steele.

I read somewhere that Parker's appearances in the Mummy films (except A&C) had been discredited, and I was comfortable enough with that to remove those listings from a webpage I have about his filmwork.

But I took a quick look at the Chaney "Kharis" films in the wee hours this morning. I don't know what evidence has been presented about Parker not being in them, though I would guess it was a domino-theory exclusion based on his elimination from other films? Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's difficult to tell who's behind the masks of the Mummy in any of the films, though I certainly thought I could detect the facial contours of Lon himself in most of the shots, and there were lots of frustrated hand and fist gestures that seemed very Chaneyesque too. And guess what? Chaney/Kharis does indeed have a VERY distinctive "S-shaped" spine curvature that's pronounced enough to be remarked upon -- almost humped between the shoulders, sloping markedly inward in the small of the back, then out again over the tailbone.

Chaney's physique is also distinctive, actually somewhat athletic, wide in the shoulders, broad across the chest and narrow at the hips -- though with a bit of paunch beginning to develop. Based on a cursory viewing, I'm pretty sure that it's indeed Lon himself in most every scene.

But there's ANOTHER guy all wrapped up in his work in at least a few shots -- strolling through the woods in TOMB, knocking Robert Lowery down on the ramp and carrying Ramsay Ames into the swamp in GHOST among the few that I spotted with a quick survey today. THIS guy's back looks straight as a board, and his physique is thicker and blockier than Lon's. There's also a suggestion, at least to this reviewer, that the guy may have been balding, as "Don Grant" mentioned in his original earth-shaking article. There seem to be fewer strands mudpacked down on his pate in some shots. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------197

This is NOT to say that it's Eddie Parker -- heaven forbid I should utter such sacrilege. I really couldn't tell a damn thing about the face under all the wrinkles. But it's almost absolutely NOT Lon in a few scenes, unless they padded his suit heavily to fill in all the curves for some reason. I don't have a copy of A&C MEET THE MUMMY handy to check out Klaris' bod, so I can't speak for comparison to Mr. Squareback.

Lon seems to have no trouble carrying women, or dummies of women, all by himself, and we have some first-hand evidence of that, don't we? But when he has to climb a ladder or trellis carrying somebody it may be a different matter.

And SURELY the studio wouldn't have let Lon do some of those scenes at the fiery climax of TOMB, in which Kharis is not just walking between walls of flame but is quite visibly bathed in them? I couldn't imagine what they might have done with the costume to make THAT safe even for a stunt man.

One final bit of info RE: Eddie's stunting capabilities.

I have a rare single-sheet fan publication (undated, but published sometime in the 60's, in or after 1966, from internal evidence) called THE TOM CRIER, "The Official Newsletter of the International Tom Steele Fan Club," Volume 1, Number 1. (Perhaps the one and only issue?) The masthead reads:

HONORARY PRESIDENT -- TOM STEELE EXECUTIVE PRESIDENT -- Don Glut VICE PRESIDENT -- Bart Andrews ART DIRECTOR -- Larry M. Byrd HONORARY MEMBERS: Richard Alexander Kirk Alyn Roy Barcroft Kenne Duncan Howard Lydecker Dave Sharpe Glenn Strange Dale Van Sickel

Perhaps Bob Burns can tell us more about group activities that may or may not have happened, but we know for sure that Don was close enough to Roy Barcroft, Kenne Duncan and Glenn Strange to have them appear in his amateur films, and I would think it's safe to say that Don was friendly with Tom Steele too -- or at least enough to run his fan club.

Any of these guys would have had some interesting stories about the stunt men they worked with, one might think, thought that's just a supposition of course.

The issue has a brief interview with Tom Steele conducted by Glut. Here's an interesting exchange from it:

"DG: How did you get your start, acting and stunting?

TS: I was originally an engineer. I had met Hal Roach, who told me to look him up if I ever came to Hollywood. So I did. I eventually got a screen test for a group of westerns. But I didn't have enough connections, and Tom Keene got the job. I did my first fight with Eddie Parker -- up at Universal. Eddie was a big guy, and a great guy. He taught me Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------198 a lot about stuntwork. Soon I was working for Republic and Universal."

We have first-hand opinions from two highly-respected fellow stunt men, Gil Perkins and Tom Steele, to establish Parker's professional competence. His involvement in the films we're discussing is yet to be determined (and may never be!), but actually looking at more evidence should be helpful.

George Chastain

Cool Breeze II (10/21/05 12:27 pm)

Re: Chaney Wolf Man "Mask" ------Since my last post, I reviewed the DVD and Greg Mank's commentary and observed: Bud and Lou appear in three shots in the opening of the sequence (being chased out of the castle by the monster, running through the gate, meeting McDougal on the pier). Glenn Strange appears in a low-angle shot walking toward the camera, and while McDougal jumps into the water. Medium shots of the doctor pouring gas on the pier are shot in the same location, near the front of the pier.

From this point, the camera set-up moves to a platform in the water, off the end of the pier, probably taking some time to move and re-light. According to Mank's commentary, the lake scenes were shot the same day of Glenn's accident on the set, and he worked until 11:00, but missed the next day, when Chaney doubled him. Since Bud and Lou had been working that day and were obviously needed the next day, I still maintain that it is unlikely that they were required to do long shots of the pier scene.

Lou's brother Pat did closely resemble his brother (see him in BOWERY AT MIDNIGHT and THE CORPSE VANISHES) and could duplicate his gestures well.

The reason I think Bud and Lou were filmed separately in the rowboat was because in the last scene, while they are dodging barrels, the boat is rocking furiously back and forth. In the last shot, as they say their lines, the boat is absolutely stationary, probably due to having to line up elements from the "Invisible Man" effects. They react, then there is a cut to the last shot, where their doubles dive into the water. The boat barely moves, probably resting on sawhorses under the water. As long as it was necessary to shoot them in the tank for that scene, it would have been easier to shoot their inserts at the same time.

As for the monster, when he turns and sees the fire, holding the ladder, the costume seems too big for him, it hangs oddly, and the neck scar seems darker and longer than usual.

Does anyone else find it odd, that one of the few consistant rule of the Frankenstein series was his fear of fire, but in the climax of the A & C picture, he walks into them deliberately?

taraco (10/21/05 1:34 pm)

Re: Bud and Lou ... ------>. Bob Burns, in the documentary supplement on the original DVD issue of A&C MEET FRANKENSTEIN says that Glenn Strange told him that the walk into the fire was accomplished with a dummy wearing a mask was Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------199 connected to an overhead wire rig, while the feet were connected to long 2 X 4's which were slid to shuffle the feet.

That is worth checking out...a walking dummy with wires??

I gotta say, there's enough information/speculation/investigation/inspiration posted in the last day here to occupy a full forensics lab!

Example: If it's not Strange or Chaney on the dock in the fire scene, then it's either this dummy mentioned above or someone else. And if it's someone else...who? Think I'll get my A&C DVD and look for myself... david

Dr Gangrene (10/21/05 1:36 pm)

where are we? ------So we all think Strange and Chaney both worked on A&C Meets, right? And possibly a stunt double but if so the camera was too far away to tell who.

So what was next?

There is this entry of Chaney Jr: "Tales of Tomorrow" playing "The Monster" in episode: "Frankenstein" (episode # 1.16) 18 January 1952 and then there's the Tales of Frankenstein tv pilot, 1958 with Don Megowan.

Dave, how many references to the monster makeup do you want to go with? Just Universal stuff, or a full list of actors/stuntmen with the various makeup - including Hammer, modern appearances, etc - Curse of Frankenstein, 1957, etc...

davlghry (10/21/05 1:39 pm)

Re:where are we? ------

The monster shows up briefly in one of the later Abbot and Costello films in a wax museum setting, right? A&C MEET DR. JEKYLL AND MISTER HYDE maybe.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------200

Count Gamula (10/21/05 1:53 pm)

Re: Chaney Wolf Man "Mask" ------Here's an interesting and revealing photo that shows Chaney being made up for the film. Note that the nose appliance is already on but looks pretty subtle without rest of the make-up. Most of the hair was on a large wig-like piece that included the neck and chin. Additional layers of hair were glued to Lon's face and blended with the wig. Jack Pierce only used a wig over Chaney's hair and forehead. All other hair on his neck and face was was applied in layers, trimmed and seared with a hot curling iron to give it a bristly look. Chaney must have liked the A&C make-up process much better.

Kerry Gammill

taraco (10/21/05 2:39 pm)

Re: Bud and Lou ... ------I just watched the final scenes of A&CMF with Greg Mank's commentary, and the documentary (nice to see Ted Newsome [sic] credited for the outtake footage!).

Anyhow, I can see one moment where the Monster is trapped at the end of the dock and the flames approaching where he does look a bit different and it MIGHT be someone other than Strange. But it easily could be Strange, too.

One possible explanation for his different appearance could be they had some flame retardent on him or extra bulk because of the fire??

The Monster falling into the fire clearly is a dummy, as Bob Burns describes. david Edited by: taraco at: 10/21/05 3:01 pm

taraco (10/21/05 2:49 pm)

Monster on the road... ------For the completionists out there (all of us!):

It should be noted that Bela Lugosi and Glenn Strange briefly did a road tour to theaters showing ABBOTT AND COSTELLO MEET FRANKENSTEIN. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------201

Bob Burns should know. He has the boots Strange wore during the tour!

Here's a photo of Glenn Strange's Frankenstein boots from Bob's collection (photo from the book, IT CAME FROM BOB'S BASEMENT):

MISSING

Bob says the boots are so big Glenn Strange's street shoes are still inside! david Edited by: taraco at: 10/21/05 3:00 pm

taraco (10/21/05 2:52 pm)

THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1948) ------Here's where we are through the eight Universal classics and additonal Monster appearances:

All listings marked with an asterisk (*) indicate evidence is inconclusive or still under debate.

FRANKENSTEIN (1931) Universal Bela Lugosi (lost screen test; no footage included in film) Boris Karloff *Unnamed double: Was double used in parts of creation scene and Monster drugged on floor? David Skal believes photos show hairier arm on Monster in several such shots.

BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN (1935) Universal Boris Karloff George DeNormand: Brief scenes may have included 'rescue' of shepherd girl; monster lifted on pole in long shot during 'crucifixion'; carrying Elizabeth in abduction (long shot); possibly castle explosion. Boris Karloff (footage from FRANKENSTEIN)

TWO HEARTS IN WAX TIME (1935) MGM - 1 reel color musical Monster is a wax dummy which comes to life; simalcrum of BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN make-up & costume; The Monster Sings! *Frank Hayes is billed as "Frank the Mannequin"

ONE IN A MILLION (1936) 20th/Fox - feature musical Al Ritz; song & dance sketch on skates; simalcrum of FRANKENSTEIN make-up and costume. The Monster dances.

SON OF FRANKENSTEIN (1939) Universal Boris Karloff Bud Wolfe: Stand-in for fall into sulphur pit.

THIRD DIMENSIONAL MURDER (1941) MGM 1 reel Ed Payson (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN type make-up and costume)

HELLZAPOPPIN' (1941) Universal- feature comedy Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------202

Dale Van Sickel (wire gag in theater, throwing woman onto stage)

CELEBRITY BASEBALL NEWSREEL (1942) Boris Karloff

GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1942) Universal Lon Chaney Boris Karloff (archive footage from FRANKENSTEIN) *Eddie Parker: possibly stunt double for scene on village bridge; breaking down door, gas attack; fire climax. NOTE: Gil Perkins, in interviews, recalls playing Monster previous to FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN. Was it Perkins in GHOST?

FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN (1943) Universal Bela Lugosi Gil Perkins: Doubles for Monster in the ice scene; probably on wagon; says it was he in fight scene. Eddie Parker Doubles for Wolf Man in fight scene. *Eddie Parker: Possibly doubles for Monster briefly carrying Ilona; possibly in second take of fight scene. NOTE: Debate continues over Parker. Some believe he is in ice, or may have been throwing barrels. Others doubt he was ever the Monster.

HOUSE OF FRANKENSTEIN (1944) Universal Glenn Strange Dummy (Monster frozen in ice; Monster electrified on lab table) Carey Loftin doubled for Karloff in long shots during quicksand scene; it is Strange and Karloff who actually sink in quicksand.

HOUSE OF DRACULA (1945) Universal Glenn Strange Boris Karloff (footage from BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) Lon Chaney (footage from GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN fire scene) Eddie Parker* (footage from GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN fire scene) Carey Loftin doubles for Onslow Stevens.

ABBOTT AND COSTELLO MEET FRANKENSTEIN (1948) Universal Glenn Strange Lon Chaney: Doubles for Strange, who had injured his ankle. Chaney throws woman through skylight, briefly chases the boys. Walter De Palma: Greg Mank cites production report (see his posting below), proving that stuntman De Palma subbed for the still-injured Strange during fire on dock scene. Only small part of that shoot made it to film, and new shots of a recovered Strange replaced much of it. Dummy: Falls through dock during fire.

LUGOSI/STRANGE MONSTER TOUR (1948) Glenn Strange appeared as Monster -- wearing a Monster mask, and his Monster boots from MEETS -- during theater tour with Bela Lugosi promoting Abbott and Costello Meets Frankenstein.

Again, these are not yet finalized, but hopefully sums up where we are as of now.

So discussion on all or some of this welcome and encouraged. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------203

But as we do, let's move on the Monster's next appearances. david Edited by: taraco at: 10/21/05 4:04 pm

taraco (10/21/05 3:12 pm)

A&C MEET DR. JEKYLL AND MR. HYDE ------The next Monster appearance is a brief chase scene in ABBOTT AND COSTELLO MEET DR. JEKYLL AND MR. HYDE (1953).

And Eddie Parker emerges again, widely cited as doubling for Karloff as Mr. Hyde.

(This is being discussed elsewhere on the boards, but to keep continuity we can discuss it again here.)

Anyhow, I have yet to hear doubts that Parker doubled for Karloff. In this photo, one Hyde is Karloff, the other is Parker. Which is which?

Also, there is a brief moment where Lou (playing Tubby), runs into a wax museum where there are mannequins of Dracula and the Monster. The Monster gets jolted by an electrical wire, and tries to grab Lou.

Don Glut, in his FRANKENSTEIN CATALOG, says 'Studio publicity erroneously credited the Monster's role to Glenn Strange, though the part was actually played by an unknown actor.'

Unknown actor??? Sigh ...

Anyone know more, or have a still of the Monster from MEETS JEKYLL? Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------204 david

georgechastain (10/21/05 3:28 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1948) ------Quote: ------LUGOSI/STRANGE MONSTER TOUR (1948) ------

Courtesy of Bob Burns' collection.

Edited by: georgechastain at: 10/21/05 3:30 pm

taraco (10/21/05 3:30 pm)

Re: where are we? ------>> Dave, how many references to the monster makeup do you want to go with? Just Universal stuff, or a full list of actors/stuntmen with the various makeup - including Hammer, modern appearances, etc - Curse of Frankenstein, 1957, etc...

Doc, for now I think we should stick to the Universal canon, but including such side appearances as the ones you note, Chaney on TALES OF TOMORROW, the Colgate appearance, etc., as well.

We surely can eventually move on to non-Universal Frankensteins, although who doubled for Kiwi Kingston during a longshot of the Monster sleeping in the hay might be more than we all can handle!!

But this thread should remain the basic flat-topped Universal Monster. At least for now! david

greg mank (10/21/05 3:44 pm)

Re: Bud and Lou .. . ------The official "info" from the production reports for "Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein"....

Film starts Thurs. Feb. 5, '48. Glenn Strange shoots his first scene as the Monster Monday, 2/16. He works for the next four weeks with no double. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------205

Monday, March 15, 1948. Production report notes Strange fractured his ankle in scene of throwing Lenore Aubert's stunt double (Helen Thurston) through the lab window. This happened late afternoon. Strange works that night on the pier until 11 pm, despite his injury. Charles Bradstreet and Jane Randolph work at the pier until 11 pm as well; Bud and Lou's doubles are there. The reports describe Strange swinging barrels and pulling the pier ladder.

Tuesday, March 16, '48: Reports list Strange as Ill. That afternoon, Chaney, in Monster get-up, throws Helen Thurston through the window. The report describes Chaney's action as hurling the woman through the window, turning, and following Bud and Lou. Based on the reports, that's all Chaney does as the Monster. During her through-the-window stunt, Helen Thurston gets candy glass in her eyes and goes to the hospital.

Wednesday, March 17, '48. Strange is still out ill. A second unit that night shoots the burning pier sequence. Charles Bradstreet is there - Walter De Palma is listed as a double, obviously for the Monster. The report describes the Monster getting the pier ladder and throwing it into the flames.

Thursday, March 18, '48. Strange returns, and director Charlie Barton shoots a scene of Strange hurling the ladder (possibly replacing part of what the double filmed the previous night).

Friday, March 19, '48: Strange films more of the chase scene inside the castle and (again!) a shot of him throwing the ladder. He also plays the Monster going into the flames (apparently edited into the already-shot pier finale).

Saturday, March 20, '48: Last day of shooting - Strange completes more scenes of the inside-castle chase.

The shot of the Monster breaking down the gate was filmed March 10, prior to Strange's injury, and Strange did the scene himself.

So, as for Glenn Strange being doubled...he apparently is by Walter De Palma for an instant in the pier scene, and in the final fire shot by a dummy.

Sorry if it's too late in the thread for this to make much difference, but as it comes from the actual studio records, I thought it would be helpful.

Greg Mank

Dr Gangrene (10/21/05 3:49 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1948) ------Boy that list is shaping up nicely, and gives a fair representation to both sides of the great Parker debate. Well done! georgechastain (10/21/05 4:05 pm)

LUGOSI/STRANGE TOUR ------Two more gems from Bob Burns' archives; closeups of faces cropped from two photos:______>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

About the first photo, Bob said: Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------206

"This is the mask that Jack Kevan made up for Glenn to wear at his public appearances. He wore this on the Abbott and Costello Colgate Comedy Hour as well as the Spook shows. It had hair on it and zipped up the back. It looked very much like the make up for Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein."

About the second photo, just:

"Another shot of the mask."

Edited by: georgechastain at: 10/24/05 1:03 pm

taraco (10/21/05 4:06 pm)

Adding DePalma to THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN!! ------>> Wednesday, March 17, '48. Strange is still out ill. A second unit that night shoots the burning pier sequence. Charles Bradstreet is there - Walter De Palma is listed as a double, obviously for the Monster. The report describes the Monster getting the pier ladder and throwing it into the flames.

That is fabulous information, Greg. Nothing beats a document!

I've amended the master listing (above) for A&CMF to now include DePalma's name in the hall of monster stuntman infamy!!! david Edited by: taraco at: 10/21/05 4:13 pm

taraco (10/21/05 4:12 pm)

First use of Monster mask? ------Those mask photos are great.

The earliest anyone has suggested a mask was used is that one shot of the Monster carrying the little girl on the roof in GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN . There's no proof it's a mask, but that one shot -- way back on page two or three of this thread -- does look kinda misshapen.

Anyhow, I know nothing at all about mask 'technology,' but for our Bud westmore/Don Post experts here, when did rubber masks such as used by Strange in the 50s first appear? Would a mask be possible in GHOST? david Edited by: taraco at: 10/21/05 4:13 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------207 taraco (10/21/05 4:26 pm)

Re: Walter de Palma ------More on De Palma: In the IMdB, it lists De Palma as a 'stand-in' for Lon Chaney in HOUSE OF DRACULA.

Here's De Palma's actor listings:

1. The Doughgirls (1944) (uncredited) .... Justice of the Peace 2. Kismet (1944) (uncredited) .... Detective ... aka Oriental Dream (USA: reissue title (TV title))

3. Rhythm of the Saddle (1938) .... Tall henchman 4. Hollywood Cowboy (1937) .... Metzger the pilot ... aka Wings Over Wyoming 5. You Only Live Once (1937) .... Monk Mendall

Edited by: taraco at: 10/21/05 5:05 pm

georgechastain (10/21/05 4:36 pm)

Here's one that might get missed... ------OK, just one more picture from Bob Burns:

He told me:

"Glenn as the monster and me as Superman from Don Glut's film ADVENTURES OF THE SPIRIT. He's wearing my Don Post mask."

Don's amateur film was made in 1963, so I'm jumping ahead here, but I had to post this now or never.

These two webpages have plenty more info and some great candid shots of Glenn:

Don Glut's Super- & Serial Heroes Chapter 2 http://usersites.horrorfind.com/home/horror/moviemaker/dgheroes2.html

The Adventures of the Spirit http://usersites.horrorfind.com/home/horror/moviemaker/spiritglut.html Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------208

Count Gamula (10/21/05 4:37 pm)

Re: Bud and Lou ... ------Quote: ------Thursday, March 18, '48. Strange returns, and director Charlie Barton shoots a scene of Strange hurling the ladder (possibly replacing part of what the double filmed the previous night). ------

I was dead sure it wasn't Strange picking up the ladder. Thanks for the info, Greg! There are two shots in the film of The Monster throwing the ladder. A wide shot of the stunt monster from the back, edited together with the closer shot of Glenn Strange from the front throwing the ladder toward the camera. When the ladder leaves The Monster's hands, it's Glenn. When it lands, it's DePalma so both shots are in the film. I wonder if they shot that scene during the time Strange was out because it was already planned to use a double for the fire scene, or if the scene was already scheduled for that day and they had to scramble to get a double for Strange because he was out. Kerry Gammill

Edited by: Count Gamula at: 10/21/05 4:40 pm

greg mank (10/21/05 4:39 pm)

Re: Adding DePalma to THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN!! ------Some more info re: enigmatic Eddie Parker...

According to Universal info I used in the production history for the MagicImage Filmbook on "The Mummy's Curse" (still available!), Chaney's double for the Mummy in that film was Robert Pepper. There's no mention at all of Parker in the reports.

However! As for "Abbott and Costello Meet Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde," the studio talent sheet indeed lists "Ed Parker" as Karloff's Double, and sets him for two weeks and five days of work.

Eddie's definitely the real deal in this one!

Greg Mank Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------209 georgechastain (10/21/05 4:43 pm)

Re: Here's one that might get missed... ------A little more info about Glenn's mask in ADVENTURES OF THE SPIRIT, quoted from Don Glut's webpage (the first I linked):

Quote: ------The ultimate coup, however, was getting actor Glenn Strange (House Of Frankenstein, House Of Dracula and Abbott And Costello Meet Frankenstein) to recreate his role as the Frankenstein Monster for my amateur film. Because Glenn had a moustache (he was currently playing Sam the Bartender in TV's Gunsmoke series), he wore a rubber mask - the first mask ever produced of the Frankenstein Monster, manufactured by Don Post in 1948. ------

georgechastain (10/21/05 4:50 pm)

Re: Adding DePalma to THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN!! ------Quote: ------Some more info re: enigmatic Eddie Parker... ------

That's strange... I was pretty fried by the time I got to CURSE around dawn today, but that's the ONLY film I couldn't find any shots that didn't look like Chaney! Maybe he had the "S" curve too!? I was gonna go back for a second look sometime, but now I'm thinking to hell with it.

Count Gamula (10/21/05 5:16 pm)

Re: Chaney Wolf Man "Mask" ------Another word about that photo I posted of the Wolf Man make-up in progress. After noticing how little difference there was in the shape of the nose appliance and Chaney's real nose, I took a closer look at the first transformation scene in the film. Sure enough, there appears to be at least three different appliances for different stages of the transformation. The nose in the photo looks like a middle stage one which means the photo was taken during a make-up session for one of the change scenes. God, I love this stuff. Kerry Gammill

Edited by: Count Gamula at: 10/21/05 6:05 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------210

Count Gamula (10/21/05 5:21 pm)

Re: Adding DePalma to THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN!! ------Quote: ------I was pretty fried by the time I got to CURSE around dawn today, but that's the ONLY film I couldn't find any shots that didn't look like Chaney! ------

Isn't it a stunt man that carried Virginia Christine up the temple stairs at the end, much the to her relief considering it was after "lunch"?

Kerry Gammill

Joe Karlosi (10/21/05 5:28 pm)

Re: Chaney Wolf Man "Mask" ------Quote: ------Here's an interesting and revealing photo that shows Chaney being made up for the film. Note that the nose appliance is already on but looks pretty subtle without rest of the make-up. ------

Good Gawd, that's an amazing photo! Where'd you get it, Kerry? Never seen it before! ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

taraco (10/21/05 5:57 pm)

De Palma as the Monster... ------Here's the moment where, according to documents cited by Greg Mank earlier, stuntman Walter De Palma briefly plays the Monster in Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein. Basically he throws the ladder and possibly one other long shot. The rest are Strange (so to speak):

I copied this from FedOp's multiple-photo montage earlier, which was a bit clearer.

david Edited by: taraco at: 10/21/05 6:11 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------211

Ted Newsom (10/21/05 6:48 pm)

Stunted Growth ------Since Walt dePalma was used here, and doubled Chaney in HOUSE OF DRACULA, why not nominate him for the double in GHOST? He was clearly a utility stunt man, complete with utility belt.

Look at the hands of the Hyde on the left and tell me that ain't Boris Karloff.

Before we get too far along chronologically, there's another appearance which may predate the TALES OF TOMORROW show. There was a local (LA) gag on either station KTLA (5) or maybe KCOP (13) with a masked flag-sitter. The mystery went on for several weeks, apparently, with everybody trying to figure out who was under the mask (a plain-wrap mask, nothing identifiable.) Finally the day came to unveil him, and it was none other than Glenn Strange, in complete Frankenstein regalia (or, at least, the mask shown above.) This may have been as early as 1948-50, I dunno. I think Strange talks about it in his audio interview.

Don Glut identified the A/C/J/H stuntman a couple years back. I'm sure he'll tell us all given the right inducement. Somebody ask.

As for the Chaney mummies-- since we can eliminate Parker from one absolutely, why not from all three of them? I'm still dubious about this S-shaped spine nonsense. He hunches over when playing the mummy, it's part of the physical character-- but not all the time. There are obvious scenes where it would be a double, but if he didn't play the bulk of it, why moan and grouse about it so much in later years? In my interview with Turhan Bay, he said nothing about a stuntman; he just praised Chaney's physical actions and character. In Weaver interviews, director Reginald LeBorg says Chaney did the glass-door gag himself in GHOST. And Virginia Christine implies that Chaney was in all the scenes except the walk up the stairs with her.

Parker? Pfui. He is the bane of my existence, my reason for revenge against the cursed civilized world.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/21/05 7:03 pm

specterman (10/21/05 7:23 pm)

Re: ------Quote: ------Here's the moment where, according to documents cited by Greg Mank earlier, stuntman Walter De Palma briefly plays the Monster in Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein. Basically he throws the ladder and possibly one other long shot. The rest are Strange (so to speak): ------

Does anyone know where this scene was actually shot?

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------212

Ted Newsom (10/21/05 7:25 pm)

Re: De Palma as the Monster... ------Best guess-- the Universal backlot lake, where McHale and his crew hung out in later years, and where Jon Hall and Maria Montez lounged around in Technicolor. The lake's still there, complete with dock (altho' I can't say it looks much like the pier in A/C.)

Count Gamula (10/21/05 7:54 pm)

Re: Chaney Wolf Man "Mask" ------Quote: ------Good Gawd, that's an amazing photo! Where'd you get it, Kerry? Never seen it before! ------

I don't have the actual photo, although I think our long lost pal Sorko does. I grabbed that jpeg from ebay a few years ago when it was for sale.

Kerry Gammill

Ted Newsom (10/21/05 10:13 pm)

Re: Bud and Lou ... no limping, please ------Just noticed this...

Quote: ------The shot of the Monster breaking down the gate was filmed March 10, prior to Strange's injury, and Strange did the scene himself. ------

... which just shows us reality is in the eye of the beholder. Someone commented earlier that Strange seemed to be favoring one ankle during the walking shot which proceeds this. I would expect this was shot just prior to the gate, since you can see the grove and hillside behind him in the gate-ripping shot. And I thought he was limping.

And it looks very much like I was wrong and Cool Breez 2 was on the money-- split shifts, day shoot and evening shoots on at least some of these days. Overtime for everybody.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------213

Count Gamula (10/21/05 10:43 pm) Reply

Re: Bud and Lou ... ------For the record, here's the part about the injured ankle, Chaney and the iron gate in the interview Forry Ackerman did with Glenn Strange in Famous Monsters #17.

Cheers For Chaney Jr.

"I've reason to be grateful to Lon, too," Glenn revealed. "During the filming of ABBOTT AND COSTELLO MEET FRANKENSTEIN, I broke my ankle and for two weeks had to hobble around in those big shoes with 4 inch soles." Painful as it was with a cast on, Glenn managed to knock down an iron gate as called for in the script. "But then," he said, "my pal Lon did me the great favor of getting into the Frankenstein make-up and, when you see the scene on the screen, it was he who threw the girl through!"

Kerry Gammill

TomWeaver999 (10/21/05 10:52 pm)

Re: Chaney Wolf Man "Mask" ------<< Bela Lugosi and Glenn Strange briefly did a road tour to theaters showing ABBOTT AND COSTELLO MEET FRANKENSTEIN. <<

It's described at length by Bob Burns (who attended) in MONSTER KID MEMORIES.

The Glenn Strange-as-the-Monster, KTLA-tower-sitting publicity stunt was 1957.

Rakshasa (10/21/05 11:03 pm)

Re: Bud and Lou ... no limping, please ------Bob Burn's MONSTER KID MEMORIES is one of my all-time favorite books.

So much fun.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------214

TomWeaver999 (10/21/05 11:09 pm)

Re: Adding DePalma to THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN!! ------From Greg Mank:

<< According to Universal info I used in the production history for the MagicImage Filmbook on "The Mummy's Curse" (still available!), Chaney's double for the Mummy in that film was Robert Pepper. There's no mention at all of Parker in the reports. <<

From FAMOUS MONSTERS, mid-'60s or so (Bill Obbagy's HEADLINES FROM HORRORWOOD):

"Lon Chaney is bemoaning the recent death of friend Robert C. Pepper who did many 'stand-ins' for Chaney whenever there was a difficult stunt scene to be done. Pepper replaced Chaney for a spot in SON OF DRACULA which was ultimately cut, the horror star noted, and, in more recent years, in Chaney's TV series LAST OF THE MOHICANS."

So now add to the mix the fact that Chaney had a regular stuntman (who was also a personal friend) for umpteen years. It's easy to believe that Pepper could have ended up in GHOST OF FRANK (and/or other Chaney-Monster pics) SOMEwhere. Heck, ***if*** Pepper doubled Chaney in the fire scene in TOMB, ***if*** he was a "fire guy," then I think we have another possible contender for the GHOST fiery-lab scene Monster.

LesDaniels (10/22/05 2:45 am)

Re: Bud and Lou ... no limping, please ------If anyone's still looking for that still of British bobbies becoming monsters at the end of A&CMDJ&MH, I'm just about positive it was reprinted in the first issue of FAMOUS MONSTERS OF FILMLAND. I bought a copy when it first came out, but (of course) I don't have it anymore.

georgechastain (10/22/05 3:49 am)

Perkins Parker picked a peck of pickled Peppers ------Quote: ------So now add to the mix the fact that Chaney had a regular stuntman (who was also a personal friend) for umpteen years. It's easy to believe that Pepper could have ended up in GHOST OF FRANK (and/or other Chaney-Monster pics) SOMEwhere. Heck, ***if*** Pepper doubled Chaney in the fire scene in TOMB, ***if*** he was a "fire guy," then I think we have another possible contender for the GHOST fiery-lab scene Monster. ------

This guy's credentials at least ought to be easy to verify. How could he have done all that work if he wasn't in the union? They wouldn't even let Lon do his own makeup! Robert C. Pepper only has one IMDb credit, for CURSE (which I suspect is recent) but it gives a birth and death date. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------215

TomWeaver999 (10/22/05 6:10 am)

Re: Chaney Wolf Man "Mask" ------Bob/Robert Pepper's acting credits (including a scene at the beginning of JUNGLE CAPTIVE):

Bob Pepper (I)

1. The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer (1947) (uncredited) .... Cop at airport 2. They Won't Believe Me (1947) (uncredited) .... Officer Guarding Larry 3. The Beginning or the End (1947) (uncredited) .... Crewman 4. Crack-Up (1946) (uncredited) .... Intern 5. Without Reservations (1946) (uncredited) .... Man 6. The Hidden Eye (1945) .... Sgt. Kramer 7. The Jungle Captive (1945) (uncredited) .... Policeman at Morgue 8. Meet the Chump (1941) (uncredited) .... Handsome

Edited by: TomWeaver999 at: 9/25/06 11:06 am

roheimiana (10/22/05 6:39 am)

Re: First use of Monster mask? ------Quote: ------...when did rubber masks such as used by Strange in the 50s first appear? ------

Don Post began selling rubber masks in 1938 and, by the war years, had considerable success with such novelty items as his caricatures of Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin, as well as various clowns, chimps and devils. By the æ40s, commercial masks started turning up in movies û I believe, for example, it is a Post apeman mask which so intimidates Mantan Moreland in the 1945 Charlie Chan film, The Scarlet Clue. Thus itÆs no surprise that Hollywood make-up artists began using full over-the-head masks themselves, as Pierce reportedly did for The MummyÆs Curse.

Where things get interesting, particularly in terms of this thread, is when it comes to the first commercial Frankenstein mask. This was made by Post in either 1948 or 1949 and was clearly modeled on the Glenn Strange make-up because Universal, then as now, only provided licenses if they could garner publicity for their most recent releases (at that time A&C Meetà). Indeed, it wasnÆt until 20 years later (1968) that Post was finally allowed to make a Karloff Frankenstein mask and I think this circumstance contributed significantly to the fact that Glenn Strange became the iconic Frankenstein for many of us monster kids. Even if we didnÆt own a Post mask of our own, we certainly drooled over this very specific image in the Captain Company ads. Also, we rather strangely (pun intended) came to believe that the F-monster WAS GREEN. Why? Because the Don Post masks were and, even today, Universal requires that all Frank masks be a particular shade of green as part of their Draconian licensing agreement. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------216 Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------217

Scoundrel (10/22/05 8:13 am)

Re: Perkins Parker picked a peck of pickled Peppers ------" Where things get interesting, particularly in terms of this thread, is when it comes to the first commercial Frankenstein mask. This was made by Post in either 1948 or 1949 and was clearly modeled on the Glenn Strange make-up.." www.rubberroom101.com/gaz...tz/16.html taraco (10/22/05 8:34 am)

Re: First use of Monster mask? ------Thanx for all that rubbery information, Roheimiana and Scoundrel (nice link).

Interesting, too, to heard Strange's own words and words about Chaney's friend Pepper from the pages of Famous Monsters.

While everything in this thread may not be new, the accumulation of known details, and plenty of fresh evidence, continues to build an in-depth digital history of the men behind the make-up and masks.

We're still searching for an image of the Monster, and information about who might have played him, in A&C MEETS DR. JEKYLL AND MR. HYDE. We'll also check again, as Ted suggests, to see if Don Glut has additional information on that. david

georgechastain (10/22/05 8:42 am)

Frankenstein Monster on Colgate Comedy Hour -- TWICE ------Hey what gives... when we started discussing Glenn Strange appearing on the Abbott & Costello Colgate Comedy Hour, it rang a dim bell...

There's this appearance of the Monster (and the Creature from the Black Lagoon), discussed in an old issue of the Horror-Wood webzine: www.horror-wood.com/accreature.htm

And then he's in ANOTHER A&C Colgate Comedy Hour that I have on a cheap AMC dvd with a bunch of episodes. The opening credits list LON CHANEY among the guest stars, and the only place he could be (unless something's missing) is in a wordless bit in a dismal "comic" operetta, Lumbering onstage near the end under a Frankenstein mask, mildly menacing Lou and then dancing with him... but mostly just standing around. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------218

Is this indeed Lon under the mask? Both of the masks look as much or more like Lon to me than they resemble Glenn, but who can tell?

Did Glenn do both of these gigs, returning the favor for his old buddy Lon?

roheimiana (10/22/05 8:46 am)

Re: First use of Monster mask? ------Scoundrel, thanks for posting the link to THE RUBBER ROOM but the two masks shown there come much later in the history of Don Post Studios. The late æ40s/Æ50s mask (which is somewhat more generic in its features) is, with thanks to Mr. Chastain, this one:

How deliciously ironic that Glenn Strange should end up wearing a mask based on himself!

taraco (10/22/05 8:48 am)

Re: Frankenstein Monster on Colgate Comedy Hour -- TWICE ------Count Gamula's Monster Kid Online Magazine has great shots of one of the Colgate appearances.

I have a DVD of that other appearance (the Lon Chaney one), and don't recall if you ever actually SEE Lon Chaney. I will check it again! david Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------219 georgechastain (10/22/05 9:16 am)

Re: Frankenstein Monster on Colgate Comedy Hour -- TWICE ------Quote: ------Count Gamula's Monster Kid Online Magazine has great shots of one of the Colgate appearances. ------

Great interview with Ben Chapman too. Here's the link: gammillustrations.bizland.com/monsterkid3/html/ac_cre1.html

georgechastain (10/22/05 9:58 am)

Spook show Frankensteins and lot of other monsters ------Mark Walker's book about traveling theatrical spook shows, "Ghostmasters," is shockful of nifty factoids and eyeball kicks for any monster fan, including great photos of Bela Lugosi and Glenn Strange in their road show incarnations, and many shots of masked Frankensteins, gorillas, wolfmen and other monsters, a number of fetching scantily-clad babes, etc. HIGHLY recommended.

There are chapters on a bunch of different guys who had their own shows and toured everywhere with them -- probably in YOUR town at some point. Among the many pros on the circuits was "Dr. Silkini," played by Jack and/or Wyman Baker for several decades starting in the late 30s. Silkini's most successful show was probably "The Asylum of Horrors with the Frankenstein Monster. The book claims the Silkini shows included special guest appearances by Bela Lugosi, Glenn Strange and Lon Chaney Jr. over the years. It also says that Glenn toured with Wyman Baker in a show called "The Maniac Show" in the late 40's. Posters and ads from that show have the face of Petro from MAD MONSTER on them, but Bob Burns says Glenn actually wore a mask specially made for him by Jack Kevan, using part of an appliance from A&C Meet Frankenstein and bigger (pointy) ears and teeth. There's a nice picture of it in Bob Burns' (and Tom Weaver's) GREAT book MONSTER KID MEMORIES.

Here's a gem from the show that I snagged on eBay, along with autographed pix of Jack Baker as Dr. Silkini and Bob Smith as "The Apeman":

Mark Walker states that the Frankenstein Monster didn't become a regular member of Silkini's troupe until a guy named Art Dorner joined the show in the days before rubber masks were commercially manufactured... "he transformed himself into the man-made creature by using vaseline, white talcum powder, and the top off an old coffee can that he covered with black fur." This seems to be a rubber mask with molded hair from later days. I don't know what to make of the signature "Jack Wyman."

Universal put a restraining order on the show in 1943 Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------220 during a performance at the Orpheum in Los Angeles. The case went to court and Baker/Silkini lost, but Universal board members were persuaded by a special performance of the show that it could be an asset to their property, and arranged a yearly stipend for use of the character, advertised "Direct from Hollywood by special contractual agreement with Universal Pictures - Frankenstein, in person."

Edited by: georgechastain at: 10/24/05 1:10 pm

HalLane (10/22/05 10:09 am)

Frankenstein Monster on Colgate Comedy Hour--TWICE ------In Mr Monster's MOVIE GOLD Forry has a still which he identifies as Lon on The Colgate Comedy Hour--it seems to be from that "operetta" sketch. It looks like Lon's body, wearing a mask with a long "neck" that isn't tucked into the shirt collar very well. (I'd be glad to post it if I could just figure out what I'm doing--I only got this computer so that it could watch TV for me). I'll check in at the Horror Tech thread if anyone wants to offer me any assistance. Meanwhile, I'll just scan some more photos of stuntmen without their makeup,... while I'm waiting...

"..the brain is useless now! ...We must find another brain!"

Edited by: HalLane at: 10/22/05 12:04 pm

Ted Newsom (10/22/05 10:35 am)

Re: Frankenstein Monster on Colgate Comedy Hour -- TWICE ------And no S-shaped spine.

I don't wanna harp on this too much, but it was possible for Lon Chaney to stand up straight. He probably did that as much as he stretched out prone. His mummy characterization was entirely physical, and often the movements used a hunched-over position, also evident in Mongo in BLACK SLEEP (along with the foot-dragging walk and clutching hands. Well, heck, what are you gonna do?) I'm not arguing that he didn't have a stuntman at times throughout the three films (altho' I'll bet it wasn't Eddie Parker), but ID'ing him solely on the basis of a character movement sems pretty limiting.

georgechastain (10/22/05 11:10 am)

The Mummy's Curves ------Ted, I certainly agree with you that it sounds unlikely and even kind of ridiculous on the face of it, but I finally understood at least what the "S-shaped" comment was all about when I took a look at the films. The humped back is obviously somewhat of an affectation in Lon's performance -- he was indeed hunched over. He could have straightened up in scenes, sure, but I think he was too good an actor to break character that way without a good reason. And the S-curve thing is evident with him even in scenes where he's carrying the girl.

But the deep inward curve in the small of the back isn't something so easily affected or changed. Some people Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------221

(myself included) just aren't built that way... and from all appearances, neither was the OTHER guy (or guys? probly not in such brief shots but maybe so) in the bandages.

And then there's the front and back view -- the "other guy" is very blocky, unlike wedge-shaped Lon. Broad shoulders, but pretty straight down the sides. Seemed a bit thicker through the middle in side shots too. And just generally big all over.

Again, I just gave them a brief runthrough, but that's how it looked to me. And I don't contend that it's Parker, though it might be (except in CURSE, where I didn't notice the straight-backed guy anyway).

All grist for the mill of later discussions, perhaps, if this thread lasts long enough to look at other characters.

One thing that nagged at me for a while -- sure, it's easy enough to see things in beautiful freeze frames captured with fancy modern techno-toys, but how could fanboys in the early 60's tell anything at all from fleeting glimpses in those long-ago days before VCRs? Lucky fans with wealthy friends or big city retro-theaters at hand or archive access might get to see real films projected now and then, but most of us could only see these movies on tiny TV screens, often with bad reception and scenes cut to accommodate more commercials. How could they possibly take a better look at anything in the films?

I really don't know anything about it, but what's the story on Castle film adaptations? When did they start doing the monster movies? Does FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN have the entire fight scene? Is Kharis well represented?

Just a thought.

Edited by: georgechastain at: 10/24/05 1:14 pm

Count Gamula (10/22/05 11:16 am)

Re: Frankenstein Monster on Colgate Comedy Hour -- TWICE ------Quote: ------And then he's in ANOTHER A&C Colgate Comedy Hour that I have on a cheap AMC dvd with a bunch of episodes. The opening credits list LON CHANEY among the guest stars, and the only place he could be (unless something's missing) is in a wordless bit in a dismal "comic" operetta, Lumbering onstage near the end under a Frankenstein mask, mildly menacing Lou and then dancing with him... but mostly just standing around. ------

AMC's DVD is missing the Frankenstein bit Lon did, making the little reprise during the musical number completely pointless. It was basically the same routine done in the later show with Glenn Strange. A spooky house, moving candles, the monster walking around behind Lou, etc. Kerry Gammill

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------222 federal operator 99 (10/22/05 11:38 am)

Back to A&CMF for a recap ------I've been out of town and have been trying to bring myself up to speed on the posts I've missed. Is it the general conclusion then that the following frames are Lon Jr. from A&CMF (i.e., getting up from the table, tossing the Lenore Aubert double out the window, chasing Bud & Lou and knocking over the door?)... Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------223

Rakshasa (10/22/05 12:21 pm)

Re: Frankenstein Monster on Colgate Comedy Hour -- TWICE ------Is it Lon, Jr the entire time, or just for the actual throwing scene?

It still looks like Glen Strange to me where he's getting off the table and walking towards Lenore.

greg mank (10/22/05 12:44 pm)

Re: Back to A&CMF for a recap ------It's ONLY Lon Chaney throwing the double through the window and turning around to pursue Bud & Lou - It's Glenn Strange rising from the table.

Count Gamula (10/22/05 12:59 pm)

Re: Back to A&CMF for a recap ------Only frame #6 above is Chaney. The next shot of the monster (not shown in those frames) shows him knocking over a gurney and coming towards A&C in a sort of hunched position. IMO, those are the ONLY two shots that are Chaney.

Kerry Gammill Edited by: Count Gamula at: 10/22/05 1:04 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------224

Ted Newsom (10/22/05 1:15 pm)

Re: Frankenstein Monster on Colgate Comedy Hour -- TWICE ------Agree with KG -- the heave through the window, and the shot of chasing the boys.

(Though now that 3rd shot of getting up from the table is looking less and less Strange.)

Frame-grab gremlins.

Ted Newsom (10/22/05 1:21 pm)

Strange Trivia ------The announcer on the A/C Colgate shows says the name of the actor who played the Monster is "Glenn Strangle." Gulp.

georgechastain (10/22/05 1:28 pm)

Re: Strange Trivia ------Quote: ------The announcer on the A/C Colgate shows says the name of the actor who played the Monster is "Glenn Strangle." Gulp. ------

Well there we have it -- a contemporary verification of a performer's identity from somebody who was actually on the show to witness it. Guess we'll have to add this Strangle guy to our list.

taraco (10/22/05 2:17 pm)

Re: Frankenstein Monster on Colgate Comedy Hour -- TWICE ------Here are images of the Monster's TWO appearances on THE COLGATE COMEDY HOUR.

-- 1951: Lon Chaney appeared as the Monster the first time, appearing in a skit about treasure in a haunted house, and briefly dancing in the finale.

An AMC DVD of this show exists, but does not include the skit, only the finale. Odd.

Here, copied from Don Glut's essential FRANKENSTEIN CATALOG, is a photo of Chaney high-stepping at the end. (A mask?): Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------225

- 1953: The Monster appeared again, along with Ricou Browning as the Creature from the Black Lagoon. This is the more famous appearance.

The announcer indeed says the Monster is played by Glenn Strangle, but all sources say it was Glenn himself behind the makeup (mask?).

Here, taken from the lengthier report at Monster Kid Online Magazine (linked above), is a photo of Glenn Strange, er, Strangle, on that show...

We still need to pin down who was the Monster in A&CMJ/H, but we're getting there... david

georgechastain (10/22/05 2:33 pm)

Who was the monster in A&CmJ&H ------Quote: ------We still need to pin down who was the Monster in A&CMJ/H, but we're getting there... ------

I've been going through all the posts today to collect some of the amazing images that've been shared, and I found this info was already mentioned.

One of the posts quoted a letter from Don Glut to Filmfax magazine, and he mentioned that the Frankenstein monster in the wax museum scene in A&CmJ&H is Chuck Hamilton, who he said also plays the tall London bobby. p.s. Don's letter shows up on page 10 of posts on my computer (do the pages fall the same on every computer?) -- anyway it's shortly after Fed Op 99's amazing side-by-side display of morphensteins. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------226

Edited by: georgechastain at: 10/22/05 2:36 pm

taraco (10/22/05 2:41 pm)

Re: Who was the monster in A&CmJ&H ------Ah. George is right: I overlooked this.

Wrote Don Glut:

'I really doubt that itÆs Parker doubling Lugosi again in Bride of the Monster. It doesnÆt look to me like Eddie. And while, except for the transformations, Parker portrayed Hyde in Abbott and Costello Meet Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, it was not he (nor Glenn Strange, as sometimes stated) but character actor Chuck Hamilton (also the tall London ôbobbyö) who was the Frankenstein Monster in that filmÆs wax museum sequence.'

So we will add Hamilton unless anyone has differing information. david

taraco (10/22/05 2:48 pm)

The face on the floor... ------By the way, I watched FRANKENSTEIN (1931), this morning.

While I'm not convinced visually that a double might have been under the sheets for Karloff in the laboratory/creation scenes, as David Skal contends, it does not seem wrong that a stand-in might very well have been there for those lengthy takes and retakes.

(As you might recall, David says visual evidence shows the not-yet-alive Monster had hairier arms than karloff's).

But I do agree that the Monster is probably someone other than Karloff when he is lying face down on the floor after being drugged by Dr. Waldman. Yes, his forearm still has that Karloffian clamp, but he looks smaller, and his face is carefully hidden, especially when they carry him back to his part of the castle. Just looks like a different guy.

Or maybe it's the power of Skalian suggestion! david 'I believe in this monster, as you call him.'

Bill Warren (10/22/05 2:54 pm)

Frankenstein masks ------There was another mask of the Pierce Frankenstein Monster available in the late 1940s--I know because I had one. It Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------227 was not an over-the-head mask but full face with elastic to hold it on. It was made of very thick rubber which was dyed green throughout. I have no idea if this was made by Post, but I doubt it. I had it for several years, and wore it as my Halloween costume (with black pants and a coat worn backwards). It fell apart over the course of a couple of years. I've never seen photos of this turn up anywhere, and neither I nor my parents took one either.

In the very small community where I lived as a kid, the local theater never staged a spook show, but they were frequently held in Portland--and as we got the Portland papers, I drooled over these ads time and again. Finally, fortunately after I got my driver's license, making this probably 1960, one was held at the Egyptian Theater in Coos (rhymes with loose) Bay, something over 30 miles south of where I lived.

It was a Silkini show. I think I went by myself, and was quite excited to be there. However, the show itself was unimpressive. Ads had promised monsters in the audience grabbing victims to take to the stage. What we got was, at first, the theater lights going on and off rapidly, followed by a mediocre magic act. Then with a recorded fanfare, the "big deal" began. Monsters did come out on stage; I remember only the Frankenstein Monster (Post mask) and The Fly (have no idea of the source of that mask). There were a couple of others, loud thunderclap recordings and flashing lights signifying lighning. Someone may have been grabbed from the audience, but it was hard to tell. The movie they showed was I BURY THE LIVING.

Edited by: Bill Warren at: 10/22/05 3:07 pm

georgechastain (10/22/05 2:59 pm)

Radical new thought RE: FMtWM ------Sorry to suggest this at such a late date, out of sequence and all, but it might conceivably lead to something important... WHO was the "STUNT BARONESS" in Frankenstein Wolfs the Meat Man? We're all unanimously agreed that there's NO WAY Ilona Massey would've been dumped on her keester during the fight. So who was?

It's possible that she even might still be alive. The women in these old films seem to have kept much better than the guys, generally speaking, and she was apparently athletic and may have taken care of herself better than most.

Edited by: georgechastain at: 10/22/05 3:07 pm

taraco (10/22/05 3:00 pm)

Re: Frankenstein masks ------We need photographic proof, Bill!!

(It is amazing how moment-by-moment documented kids are today compared to the three or four photos that survive from us older kid's childhoods!) taraco (10/22/05 3:06 pm)

THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1953) Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------228

------Here's where we are through the eight Universal classics and additional Monster appearances, including TV:

All listings marked with an asterisk (*) indicate evidence is inconclusive or still under debate.

FRANKENSTEIN (1931) Universal Bela Lugosi (lost screen test; no footage included in film) Boris Karloff *Unnamed double: Was double used in parts of creation scene and Monster drugged on floor? David Skal believes photos show hairier arm on Monster in several such shots.

BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN (1935) Universal Boris Karloff George DeNormand: Brief scenes may have included 'rescue' of shepherd girl; monster lifted on pole in long shot during 'crucifixion'; carrying Elizabeth in abduction (long shot); possibly castle explosion. Boris Karloff (footage from FRANKENSTEIN)

TWO HEARTS IN WAX TIME (1935) MGM - 1 reel color musical Monster is a wax dummy which comes to life; simalcrum of BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN make-up & costume; The Monster Sings! *Frank Hayes is billed as "Frank the Mannequin"

ONE IN A MILLION (1936) 20th/Fox - feature musical Al Ritz; song & dance sketch on skates; simalcrum of FRANKENSTEIN make-up and costume. The Monster dances.

SON OF FRANKENSTEIN (1939) Universal Boris Karloff Bud Wolfe: Stand-in for fall into sulphur pit.

THIRD DIMENSIONAL MURDER (1941) MGM 1 reel Ed Payson (SON OF FRANKENSTEIN type make-up and costume)

HELLZAPOPPIN' (1941) Universal- feature comedy Dale Van Sickel (wire gag in theater, throwing woman onto stage)

CELEBRITY BASEBALL NEWSREEL (1942) Boris Karloff

GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1942) Universal Lon Chaney Boris Karloff (archive footage from FRANKENSTEIN) *Eddie Parker: possibly stunt double for scene on village bridge; breaking down door, gas attack; fire climax. NOTE: Gil Perkins, in interviews, recalls playing Monster previous to FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN. Was it Perkins in GHOST?

FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN (1943) Universal Bela Lugosi Gil Perkins: Doubles for Monster in the ice scene; probably on wagon; says it was he in fight scene. Eddie Parker Doubles for Wolf Man in fight scene. *Eddie Parker: Has been listed for decades as double for Monster. Photos suggest it might be him getting up from Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------229 lab table and briefly carrying Ilona (Don Glut insists that is the case); possibly in second take of fight scene. NOTE: Fierce debate continues over Parker. Some doubt that he was ever the Monster; others say photographic evidence show Perkins did not do it all.

HOUSE OF FRANKENSTEIN (1944) Universal Glenn Strange Dummy (Monster frozen in ice; Monster electrified on lab table) Carey Loftin doubled for Karloff in long shots during quicksand scene; it is Strange and Karloff who actually sink in quicksand.

HOUSE OF DRACULA (1945) Universal Glenn Strange Boris Karloff (footage from BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN) Lon Chaney (footage from GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN fire scene) Eddie Parker* (footage from GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN fire scene) Carey Loftin doubles for Onslow Stevens.

ABBOTT AND COSTELLO MEET FRANKENSTEIN (1948) Universal Glenn Strange Lon Chaney: Doubles for Strange, who had injured his ankle. Chaney throws woman through skylight, briefly chases the boys. Walter De Palma: Greg Mank cites production report proving that stuntman De Palma subbed for the still-injured Strange during fire on dock scene. Only small part of that shoot made it to film, and new shots of a recovered Strange replaced much of it. Dummy: Falls through dock during fire.

LUGOSI/STRANGE MONSTER TOUR (1948) Glenn Strange appeared as Monster -- wearing a Monster mask, and his Monster boots from MEETS -- during theater tour with Bela Lugosi promoting Abbott and Costello Meets Frankenstein.

COLGATE COMEDY HOUR (1951) NBC Lon Chaney Jr. appears as Monster in skit with Abbott and Costello, and in dance finale.

COLGATE COMEDY HOUR (1953) NBC Glenn Strange, billed as 'Glenn Strangle,' appears as Monster in skit with Abbott and Costello and Ricou Browning as Creature from the Black Lagoon.

ABBOTT AND COSTELLO MEET DR. JEKYLL AND MR HYDE (1953) Universal Eddie Parker appears as Mr. Hyde, doubling for Boris Karloff. Chuck Hamilton appears as the Monster in brief scene in wax museum (this according to Don Glut).

Discussion on all or some of this welcome and encouraged.

Not sure this list will ever be final, but we're getting there! david

Edited by: taraco at: 10/31/05 1:22 pm taraco Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------230

(10/22/05 3:16 pm)

Too many Hydes... ------Well, I don't have Famous Monsters #1, but I was able to find this shot from the first paperback version of THE BEST FROM FAMOUS MONSTERS OF FILMLAND (1964).

If this photo originally had four Hydes, one has obviously been cropped. But it would be fair to say none of these are Karloff and (presumably), one would be the elusive Eddie Parker.

Anyhow, this paperback is so old and brown you can probably smell the pulp aging through the screen. You Axed For It:

david Edited by: taraco at: 10/22/05 3:21 pm

Count Gamula (10/22/05 3:21 pm)

Re: Who was the monster in A&CmJ&H ------Here's a photo of the A&C meet J&H Frankenstein from THE FILMS OF BORIS KARLOFF. Looks like a Glenn Strange headpiece. Oddly, they moved the neck scar up to the cheek. Since there was no stunt work involved in the Monster's scene (standing still then walking a few feet), it could have been any tall person Universal had handy, not necessarily a stunt man. Does the face look familiar to anyone? Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------231

Kerry Gammill taraco (10/22/05 3:23 pm)

Re: Who was the monster in A&CmJ&H ------Well, it surely doesn't look like Glenn Strange at all.

If we can find a photo of this Chuck Hamilton guy (that's who Don Glut says it is) ... taraco (10/22/05 3:29 pm)

Re: Who was the monster in A&CmJ&H ------Well, the IMdB lists 232 (!) films for Chuck Hamilton, and while A&CMJ/H is not listed, two other Abbott and Costello films are: MEET THE INVISIBLE MAN and ...IN THE FOREIGN LEGION.

He's also listed as a truck driver in FLYING DISC MEN FROM MARS and scores of serials and melodramas. He's almost always uncredited but he was in THE TEN COMMANDMENTS (slave), THE UNTOUCHABLES (guy on street during Capone episode), AROUND THE WORLD IN 80 DAYS, etc., etc...

So seems logical it could be him... david Edited by: taraco at: 10/22/05 3:31 pm georgechastain (10/22/05 3:34 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1953) ------Quote: ------FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN (1943) Universal Bela Lugosi Gil Perkins: Doubles for Monster in the ice scene; probably on wagon; says it was he in fight scene. Eddie Parker Doubles for Wolf Man in fight scene. *Eddie Parker: Possibly doubles for Monster briefly carrying Ilona; possibly in second take of fight scene. NOTE: Debate continues over Parker. Some believe he is in ice, or may have been throwing barrels. Others doubt he was ever the Monster. ------

I'm sorry to be such a kvetch, but this still doesn't get it for me. For one thing I think there's more support for Parker here than justifies the extensive use of "possibly." I would prefer to just state flatly that he's in the suit too, but if the group doesn't want to go that far, at least something less wishy-washy than "possibly." "Apparently?" "Very possibly" even? Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------232

I don't think he's in the ice, nor throwing barrels. But I do contend quite adamantly that it's him on the lab table, and that it's NOT the guy that has the Perkins "look" (much less clear to me than Parker's) in other scenes. A number of others here have said they agree, so I'd like the lab scene to at least be mentioned so if people who review our findings want to judge for themselves, they'll know the best place to look. I think this would be a far better scene to mention than the ice or barrel scenes, though I could be misreading the true group feeling.

I wonder how many others totally doubt he's in the monster suit at all. The wording should express the feeling of the majority, and this wording definitely looks like most of us are very unsure he's there except as the Wolf Man. I may be dead wrong but that's not the feeling I've gotten from the posts I've just been re-reading.

When we get a little further, perhaps it might not be a bad idea to work up some sort of tally / vote sheet and have everybody that wants to participate express their opinion by making their choices and submitting them to the moderator. It could be a public or private response, whatever. Sounds kinda tedious to me too, but maybe that would be the fairest way to get the truest results.

taraco (10/22/05 3:39 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1953) ------This is a work in progress, George, and yes, we can adjust the final language if it's still too tentative.

I'm a Parker loyalist, too, but I'm bending over backwards (in an S-shaped curve!), to document what we do and don't know.

I'm not sure how we can ever prove definitively that Parker is ever the Monster, or that Perkins is the guy on the wagon, etc.

So I'm trying to simply document each one, with sources, and then we can see where we end up. But yes...I'll adjust the list a bit.

How about this:

*Eddie Parker: Has been listed for decades as double for Monster. Photos suggest it is he getting up from lab table and briefly carrying Ilona (Don Glut insists that is the case); possibly in second take of fight scene. NOTE: Debate continues over Parker. Some doubt that he was ever the Monster; others say photographic evidence show Perkins did not do it all.

Also, I don't know about the rest of you maniacs, but my basement's been a mess for a week...magzines all out of order, books everywhere, photos strewn about...! david Edited by: taraco at: 10/22/05 3:48 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------233 bosko52 (10/22/05 3:48 pm)

Re: Who was the monster in A&CmJ&H ------ABBOTT AND COSTELLO MEET FRANKENSTEIN (1948) Universal Glenn Strange Lon Chaney: Doubles for Strange, who had injured his ankle. Chaney throws woman through skylight, briefly chases the boys. ------

I seem to recall that Chaney said in an interview that he subbed for Strange in the scene outside where the boys run thru the gate as well.

Rakshasa (10/22/05 3:56 pm)

Re: Who was the monster in A&CmJ&H ------>>>>I seem to recall that Chaney said in an interview that he subbed for Strange in the scene outside where the boys run thru the gate as well.<<<<

I seem to remember that as well, though I cannot recall where or from who.

HalLane (10/22/05 4:00 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1953) ------George, I'm in total agreement with your first three paragraphs. And I've got a photo here that I think will back up everything you just said, if I can just figure out how to post it. And put down that torch, Ted. You may scoff now, but I think you're gonna love me in the morning.

Stay tuned...

"CRAZY, AM I? ALL RIGHT! WE SHALL SEE WHETHER I AM CRAZY OR NOT!"

taraco (10/22/05 4:00 pm)

Glenn and the gate.. . ------This was a few pages back, posted by Count Gamula: ------

For the record, here's the part about the injured ankle, Chaney and the iron gate in the interview Forry Ackerman did with Glenn Strange in Famous Monsters #17. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------234

Cheers For Chaney Jr.

"I've reason to be grateful to Lon, too," Glenn revealed. "During the filming of ABBOTT AND COSTELLO MEET FRANKENSTEIN, I broke my ankle and for two weeks had to hobble around in those big shoes with 4 inch soles." Painful as it was with a cast on, Glenn managed to knock down an iron gate as called for in the script. "But then," he said, "my pal Lon did me the great favor of getting into the Frankenstein make-up and, when you see the scene on the screen, it was he who threw the girl through!"

------

georgechastain (10/22/05 4:31 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1953) ------Quote: ------I'm a Parker loyalist, too, but I'm bending over backwards (in an S-shaped curve!), to document what we do and don't know. ------

It suits me much better, David, but I just want it to express the true group feeling, whatever that is. We can continue to work with it however the group truely feels is appropriate. I saw a suggested wording from Ted Newsome some pages back that seemed much fairer to me than the last draft. I was gonna say something last time that wording was posted, but was too depressed about it at the time.

As I reread stuff today, I noticed with great admiration that Tom Weaver had posted "I'm afraid the sour looking monster, stepping off the operating table, sure looks to me like it might be Eddie Parker."

I don't know if Tom has changed his opinion since then -- and more power to him if he has -- but THIS, my fiends, is a scholar and a gentleman.

taraco (10/22/05 4:42 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1953) ------>> I was gonna say something last time that wording was posted, but was too depressed about it at the time.

What's that line in 2010? 'It's important!' Yes it is.

Anyhow, from the very first post (on page one!), I noted that FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN would be the hardest film to crack.

I'm not sure a vote can get to the truth -- or if we can actually get to a truth on this one -- but surely we can go through it again and see where we stand.

So as other topics swirl, let's also try to discuss FMTWM one more time. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------235

We can start with the ice scene and end with the flood from the dam.

How's that sound? david

taraco (10/22/05 4:47 pm)

FMTWM: In the ice.. . ------Here's a nice image of the Monster in the ice:

In interviews with Gil Perkins by Tom Weaver and Greg Mank, Perkins says he played the Monster in the fight scene, but never mentioned the ice scene. And Tom and Greg still kick themselves for not asking!

Earlier, there were morph animations and the like, and cases could be made for both Parker and Perkins. Perkins has a more identifiable chin dimple; Parker has a slighter cleft chin. Perkins has a crease on his cheek; Parker's lips seem close to this shot.

None of these identification techniques have been definitive, but the dimple is powerful.

I tend to lean toward Perkins, but not enough if this was a police line-up. What do others think?

david

Joe Karlosi (10/22/05 4:54 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1953) ------So let us vote, perhaps? I believe it's Perkins in the ice.

For what it's worth, I watched FMTWM last night and somehow felt I could recall those "human" photos of our two stuntmen from my memory even better than when I was examining them here on the board! ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Edited by: Joe Karlosi at: 10/22/05 5:01 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------236 taraco (10/22/05 4:57 pm)

Re: FMTWM (Ice scene...) ------Here's another way to look at it (and yes, Joe, I now know these guys better than some of my own relatives!): And this isn't so much a vote but a discussion aimed at a consensus. A consensus based on evidence, if evidence is

possible! david Edited by: taraco at: 10/22/05 5:00 pm

Joe Karlosi (10/22/05 5:02 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1953) ------Do we have a frame of the monster from the front, rather than his head tilted like that? Can we get one? There are certainly shots of him from straight-on as Chaney's pulling him from the ice (though they're not extreme closeup). ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------237 taraco (10/22/05 5:05 pm)

Re: FMTWM (Ice scene...) ------This one is a little more straight on (most of these are on pages 8, 9 and thereabouts):

Ted Newsom (10/22/05 5:09 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1953) ------I say it's asparagus, and I say to hell with it. -- James Thurber, 1940

Jumping around from Parker to Post, here... I'll go with Eddie Parker as the primary Hyde double in AC/JH, but take another gander at this stuff, guys. In 1953, Karloff was 66 years old. Ten years later he'd be nearly incapacitated by arthiritis, which is a progressive disease, a gradual swelling of the joints, particularly the extremities. The knuckles on the "Hyde" in the middle appear swollen, or at the very least, the man is holding his hand in an angular position to avoid flexing and feeling arthritic pain -- much like John Carradine-- or Boris Karloff-- in later years. The photo of Karloff shows a similar angular position-- which I'd guess was a way of shaking hands that avoided a painful full-hand grip from the opposite person. Note that the costume also matches the "Hyde" in photo 2.

The double for the inspector (Reginard Denny) does not wear the same costume. No cravat, for one thing, far too dressy for a working cop. And the buttons on this Hyde- Stunter are brighter than the presumably-black buttons on Karloff's dress coat. Black (or at least very dark) pants on the cop, too, as opposed to the silky things Boris wears. And the hands appear to be a LOT hairier. HEY! Maybe this is the guy Dave Skal says was lying down on the job in Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------238

FRANKENSTEIN!

The wig on the Karloff Hyde -- at least in this picture-- seems to show a LOT more forehead than the wig on the Furry Chief Cop. Given the difference between the Karloff Hyde and the Parker Hyde, I wonder what, if any, Hyde scenes Karloff did do... and if he didn't do any, why go to the extent of getting him all made up? Just in case Glenn Strange breaks his ankle?

taraco (10/22/05 5:14 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1953) ------I haven't seen A&CMJ/H in ages, but I always thought Karloff only really wore the makeup in the opening transformation scene, and even then there's question whether it's him at the end of it.

If that's Karloff as Hyde sitting down -- that's the one you mean, Ted? -- it would surprise me, but... Even under the makeup the guy looks somehow younger than 66! Then again, he IS sitting under a blanket to keep warm! david Edited by: taraco at: 10/22/05 5:15 pm

blackbiped (10/22/05 5:35 pm)

Re: FMTWM (Ice scene...) ------Quote: ------and if he didn't do any, why go to the extent of getting him all made up? ------

Maybe the Karloff makeup is a later stage of the transformation scene and they decided to take a few publicity photos while he was in it. That would explain why his face isn't as hairy as the other guy's. Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------239

Ted Newsom (10/22/05 5:38 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1953) ------

Ted Newsom (10/22/05 5:48 pm)

Re: FMTWM (Ice scene...) ------Excellent theory, blackbiped--except that the transformation itself was done on limbo, with Karloff out of costume for the progressive changes (see the sequence over on 50s horror sci-fi), wearing either an open-necked black shirt or just covered by black duvateen or something.

I, too, love a good, loud, nasty argument, George. Grew up with 3 siblings. Part of the game. Another part is to sulk and stomp my foot.

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/22/05 5:49 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------240 taraco (10/22/05 5:57 pm)

Re: FMTWM (Ice scene...) ------That's a good comparison chart, Ted. Really cool.

The problem is, the two guys look more similar than different. Plus, is it possible the dimple on the Monster is makeup, designed to reflect Bela's face?

Also, one could say the sunken cheek or indent on Parker's left cheek matches the indent on the Monster.

I still lean to Perkins -- the crease on the face is compelling and the morph animation back on page 10 (the most off-putting moment in this entire thread!) matched his eyes pretty directly, I thought. But it really is hard to tell. david Edited by: taraco at: 10/22/05 5:58 pm

Joe Karlosi (10/22/05 6:12 pm)

Re: FMTWM (Ice scene...) ------Speaking of "indentations" and "sunken cheeks", I just noticed further evidence for Gil Perkins. Check out the right side of the monster's face, right above the beauty mark. There's an indentation there, and there's also one on the right of Perkins' cheek! (mark it down with a red arrow, Ted - if you agree, that is). ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Jimchig (10/22/05 6:21 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1953) ------For me, the telltale sign is the earlobe, or the lack of one for Parker. Perkins left lobe looks exactly like Frankie's right.

Parker has one of those ears that is attached tightly on the bottom.

georgechastain (10/22/05 6:24 pm)

RE: Ted Newsom's handy three-way comparison chart ------This might surprise the hell out of you, Ted, but I absolutely agree with you -- it looks like Gil Perkins in the makeup in the ice scene to me. And here are a couple of things you missed (even more visible in the straight on shot that isn't as clear): Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------241

* the Monster's cheekbones conform to Gil's better, and Eddie is fuller underneath them where neither Gil or Frankie are;

* not whorls, exactly, but check out those earLOBES. Gil's are full and round and pendulous like the Monsters; Eddie hardly has any at all.

Don't know what to say about the lips, but the Monster is heavily sticked up to pronounce them -- since Bela was rather thin-lipped himself (as Martin Landau noted when he had to be elaborately made over to resemble him), perhaps they emphasized his mouth with makeup for dramatic purposes, and did the same with the double?

And now this is a helluva time to do this, but I've GOT to finish some artwork this weekend (a poster to advertise the new Zacherley CD I did the artwork for!) so I can get it printed and mailed to New Jersey in time for next weekend's Chiller Theatre show! I should have been working on it more diligently instead of fooling around on this forum, but I couldn't help it! Please try not to say or do anything too interesting for a day or so until I have time to get properly submerged again?

... and HalLane has promised us a blockbuster if he can figure out how to deliver it... did somebody check on him?

... and somebody had the brilliant suggestion of doing digital mockups of stunt guys with the makeups superimposed -- I'll be happy to try something like that (or perhaps Ted or somebody else could?) if it's still needed when I can do it...

... and I just heard from Bob Burns (as some of you other guys probably did too), who is apparently back safe and sound from New Zealand, and who sez he had "one of the best times in my life" touring Peter Jackson's KONG facility with Kathy and his original Kong armature. He sent a big quicktime short film that included some terrific stuff, including a reunion of his Kong puppet and Peter Jacksons pterosaur puppet, and a fabulous animation of Bob's original armature, beating his chest and roaring!

blackbiped (10/22/05 6:26 pm)

Re: FMTWM (Ice scene.. .) ------Quote: ------For me, the telltale sign is the earlobe, or the lack of one for Parker. Perkins left lobe looks exactly like Frankie's right. ------

That's a good observation!

Also, those two little creases below Frank's lower lip are evident (to me, anyway) in the Perkins photo. And Gil's neck looks bigger than Eddie's, more like the Monster's. Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

Edited by: blackbiped at: 10/22/05 6:26 pm

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------242

Ted Newsom (10/22/05 7:18 pm)

Oh, wait a second... ------just found this on another thread, from Jack's Garage

Quote: ------I was told the lifemask was made for the initial uncrating the monster scene, not the fire scene (the monster is seen from the back in that one). Once the packing material was pulled away from the monsters face by Lou in that scene, Glenn took the dummy's place in the crate. It's a great likeness. ------

Oh, God. Do we need to track down the source, too? There IS a certain practical side to putting a dummy in a nailed-shut packing crate...

Footnote to A & C, David?

georgechastain (10/22/05 7:29 pm)

Lobe Me or Leave Me ------Quote: ------NOW-- apply the earlobe revelation to that imposter breaking free from the operating table straps and you'll understand why I've been stomping my foot so hard. I noticed it back then, back about 1903, but I cleverly kept my mouth shut. Best to let people discover this-here stuff for themseffs. ------

Post! Parry! Riposte! Gad, how exhilarating!

Ah yes, monsieur, but you forget, Eddie Parker is one of those rare people whose EARLOBES, like the depression in his chin, are sometimes there and sometimes not! If you'll check that set of comparison photos I posted somewhere around Page 19 (how do you tell the actual number of a posting? Am I being stupid? Don't answer that, Ted!), you'll see what I mean. Maybe he actually had one earlobe that was more pronounced than the other (perhaps Yakima Canutt bit one of them off at Republic?)... but there's at least one photo where he's got a might fine "hangy-down thingee" anybody would be proud to wear on a lab table.

My theory is that it has something to do with the temperature -- they (lobes and chin) swell up in the heat and shrink in the cold... another good reason to believe it's Perkins on ice.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------243

Ted Newsom (10/22/05 7:32 pm)

Re: Bob Burns Kong trip report ------Double earlobes. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Count Gamula (10/22/05 7:37 pm)

Re: FMTWM (Ice scene...) ------Quote: ------I still lean to Perkins -- the crease on the face is compelling and the morph animation back on page 10 (the most off-putting moment in this entire thread!) matched his eyes pretty directly, I thought. But it really is hard to tell. ------

I'm sort of lost in all this now. If we're talking about the ice scene, there's little doubt in my mind that it's Perkins. There's no way that's Eddie Parker's nose.

Kerry Gammill

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------244 taraco (10/22/05 7:41 pm) Reply

FMTWM (Barrel scene...) ------OK, seems most everyone agrees it's Perkins in the ice. Let's move on to the barrel scene. This isn't the best get started If anyone can find a better image we can set up another one.

david Edited by: taraco at: 10/22/05 7:45 pm

Ted Newsom (10/22/05 8:33 pm)

Re: Ahead of the game ------Taraco, you've got my persimmens to grab this and re-post (or riposte) it after we kick the slats out of these barrels, but for now...

CANT GET PIC TO LOAD...

Somebody mentioned Eddie Parker's broken nose. OK, fine. Here are a buncha nose shots of Strap the Ripper. Most of them show a guy with a nose as straight as a new 2x4. I would say that the nose is un-adorned with latex additions by Pierce (or whomever) since there has been no attempt to match the prominent and distinguished schnozz of Herr Lugosi.

There are certain frames where the nose APPEARS to be less straight. Personally I think that is an artifact of the light -- hey, we saw Glenn Strange not be Glenn Strange, and Chaney turn into somebody else when we know damn well it was him. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------245

But even if this Strap-Buster DOES have an uneven nose, it is moving the wrong way. The Parker nose arcs to our left, his right. Looks to me that the Monster nose --IF it is NOT straight, which I doubt -- goes the other way. Maybe Parker was born in England and drives his nose on the wrong side of the road.

That, plus the prominent chin dimple --in frames 1, 2, 4, 7 & 8, VERY prominent --tell me the nice, simple, easy, perfect-sense story. Perkins. Parker played in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN. As the Wolf Man.

PIC OF EARS WON"T LOAD

Regarding ears: I mis-spoke. I HAD mentioned the Parker ears, but I did not go so far as to mention his lobes, or lack of same. It's an hereditary deBleauchamp trait, like the Hapsburg lisp, and it is possible Edwin Parker was in line to be considered the rightful Comte deBleauchamp, but he would have to argue with Telly Savalas, which is always a trial.

TomWeaver999 (10/22/05 9:06 pm)

Re: FMTWM (Ice scene...) ------Perkins had that little bulbous thing going at the end of his nose; and the Monster is doing that lower-lip-way-up-over-the-upper-lip thing that Perkins ALWAYS did when he did something strenuous.

georgechastain (10/22/05 9:49 pm)

Ed Parker! Gil Perkins! You shtarkers -- I'm workin'! ------Let's call the whole thing off.

It's a CLEFT, Ted, not a dimple. Most visible here in these somewhat over-processed and possibly misleading images (where's Fed Op when you need him?) in #7, but I think some of the others that appear to be a dimple are just the top of a cleft that's concealed below. And I think it's possible, given that some people have very expressive chins that sometimes seem cleft and sometimes not-so cleft, that under certain types of facial contortions (like those produced by being strapped to an operating table and electrocuted), said chin muscles may produce something resembling a dimple. (I have a mildly cleft chin and I just tried making monster faces in the bathroom mirror to see if I could make a dimple, but I couldn't tell much because I have a beard. I did look a LITTLE like the Wolf Man, at least as far as the chin hair goes, but I couldn't tell if I was Parker or Perkins, or maybe even Lon Chaney.)

RE: left or right leaning noses, left or right ear lobes, etc. Is it possible to be absolutely certain we're looking at correctly oriented images for comparison? Couldn't a film sequence or a portrait be reversed? Doesn't that happen sometimes in the cutting room just for continuity purposes?

I couldn't figure out what you were trying to tell us about ears, Ted. Something about Bond villains and the Austro-Hungarian Empire? Sorry, it was way over my head. But I guarantee you whatever you were going to say about the ears, I can produce a photo of Ed Parker that matches it. Even if I have to fake one.

Regarding the single small Parker profile and the profile from a different sequence. As you say, Ted, it's a good Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------246 match for Parker, except for that Rudolph nose. And Tom Weaver says Gil Perkins looks like that in a serial, and Tom Weaver is an honorable man. So are you all, all honorable men. So I believe you -- but before I buy the bridge I'd like to see some photographic evidence. Could we find some action shots of both of these guys out of heavy makeup that might be a lot more helpful than smiling glamor portraits? I have a bunch of serials on hand and it would be fun to look for stuff, unless everybody's perfectly satisfied to get this settled immediately. I can't do much else right now, and I wish this damned thread wasn't so interesting, and the subject so important.

One more thing. Do we know when that Parker profile shot was taken, even roughly? And when his nose was broken? Again, action shots might show what both of their noses look like in profile under extreme scrunching circumstances, and that could be revealing, either way.

Edited by: georgechastain at: 10/22/05 9:59 pm

Ted Newsom (10/22/05 11:14 pm)

Re: Ed Parker! Gil Perkins! You shtarkers -- I'm workin'! ------I got tired of writing "cleft." There aren't that many synonyms. Quote: ------Couldn't a film sequence or a portrait be reversed? Doesn't that happen sometimes in the cutting room just for continuity purposes? ------

Sure. The Lugosi MS in RETURN OF THE VAMPIRE, standing at the organ while Frieda Inescourt holds inna court while seraneding Armand Tesle with a D-flat rendition of "The Organ Grinder and the Monkey" on her Wirlitzer. Except than his vest pocket handkerchief keeps flopping ominously from his left to his right breast. Can't make up his mind.

So, since Mr. Buster Strapp seems to have his forehead scar on the classic side of his rubber forehead, we can assume this shot isn't flopped. Parker-- aww, who knows.

The plot point in ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE involves Ernst Stavro Blofeld attempting to con the Roayl College of Heraldry into awarding him the title of Comte deBleauchamp, based on his lack of earlobes (which he cut off just for this purpose. I wouldn't put it past Eddie Parker-- that theif of dead men's shoes-- to have done the same thing just to perplex and confound us, the rat.)

(Courtesy of Les Adams) From L-to-R are Eddie Parker, Johnny Mack Brown and Riley Hill in a scene from TRIGGER FINGERS (Monogram, 1946).

Eddie Parker was a member of the stunt brigade at Republic and Universal. And he shows up playing bit and supporting roles in westerns beginning with the early 1930s Lone Star/Monogram oaters starring John Wayne. At Universal, he worked in many of their horror films. His specialty was fisticuffs and screen brawls. Les Adams has Parker identified in over 200 films, which includes about 100 westerns and 60 serials. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------247

Edited

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/22/05 11:35 pm

Count Gamula (10/23/05 12:10 am)

Re: Ed Parker! Gil Perkins! You shtarkers -- I'm workin'! ------Here are another couple of shots of Eddie Parker for reference.

Kerry Gammill

Count Gamula (10/23/05 12:23 am)

Re: FMTWM (Barrel scene...) ------The guy on the wagon looks more like Wesley Hopper from those pics that George posted than either Parker or Perkins to me. Kerry Gammill

taraco (10/23/05 12:25 am)

The Match Game... ------EDITED Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------248

It seems we are left with strong evidence that Perkins was indeed the Monster in FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN -- in the ice scene and on the cart throwing barrels. Plus, he remembers being in the fight and carrying Ilona.

Can we offer similar photographic arguments that it was Eddie Parker getting up from the lab table, carrying Ilona or showing up in the fight?

Also, once dear Bob Burns recovers from his triumphant trip to New Zealand, perhaps he can weigh in on what he thinks Parker's role was.

The case for Perkins has been mostly made.

Now, can anyone make a strong case for Parker?

david Edited by: taraco at: 10/23/05 1:21 am

taraco (10/23/05 12:44 am)

Another look... ------OK, here's another set of shots. in the bottom trio, does anyone see Parker. FedOp believes 1) and 3) on the bottom row are Parker. Note that the Monster in the fight scene looks quite different in the last two shots:

Edited by: taraco at: 10/23/05 12:47 am

LesDaniels (10/23/05 12:48 am) Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------249

Ice Monster Redux ------I've been lying low on this thread, since I'm not high-tech and have no private info, but I've seen that triptych of Parker and the Ice Monster and Perkins many times now, and it surprrises me that there's been very little attention paid to the eyes. The Ice Monster's eyes are quite unusual: they're long and narrrow and they droop at the outside corners. And ya know whose eyes look like that? Parker's. Seriously. Sorry.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------250 taraco (10/23/05 12:54 am)

Re: Ice Monster Redux ------Here, for the record again, is E-Gor's shot of Eddie Parker in a 1939 Lone Ranger serial. That's quite a dimple, er, cleft, er...thing on his chin!

And I gotta say, not to prolong this, but Parker's ears don't look so lobeless in Kerry's additional photos (below):

For those who want to make the case for Parker, now's the time.

david Edited by: taraco at: 10/23/05 1:19 am

georgechastain (10/23/05 1:16 am)

Parker Caucus ------Now you're cookin', Ted. Good work.

I recognize that photo from Monotone's TRIGGER MORTIS (1946), and no, Eddie's not standing in a prairie dog hole, but Johnny Mack Brown IS standing tiptoe on the pommel of the saddle of his famous Wonder Horse, "Alabama Jubilee." Riley "Highpockets" Hill is also perched atop his famous stilts, "Sliver," after an earlier scene of Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------251 barely tolerable low-comedy in this famous "Barnum and Bailey and Wheeler and Woolsey of Westerns," a real 3-ring circus of merry pranks and wheezes for shoot-em-up fans. From the picture I'd guestimate that Ed Parker stands about 38.2 hands high, or 12 feet 10 inches at the withers, wither you believe it or not. This was in the same marvelous period when Ed was known as "Nosy Parker" and had a regular gig as one of Repugnant Studios' monstrous trigger trio called the Unhung Heroes, playing shape-shifting wrangler Lucky Luke Carew, and gallumphing through a thrilling series of 13 hearse operas with saddle pals Charles Gemora as Nabonga Smith and Kenneth Strickfadden as Lightnin'. It's hard to tell much about his proboscis from the photo because his real nose was shot off, along with at least one of his earlobes, in an unfortunate stunt-related accident in one of the earliest films in the series, "Rip Snortin' Roundup," shortly after he shot off his own mouth regarding some of the pictures he was in. From the S-shaped curve of it, Ed is probably wearing a prosthetic beezer modeled after the regal beak of his own childhood hero, professional stuntman Bart Andrews.

Seriously, I think this might be a much more productive vein to mine for useful shots of Parker and Perkins, et. al. Thanks for the initial salvo.

georgechastain (10/23/05 1:46 am)

Re: Another look... ------RE: the set of six pix Taraco posted (Parker and ice scene and Perkins above, 3 unknowns below) -- on the bottom row, I'm convinced it's Parker on the left, and that the one on the right has a lot of the same basic facial characteristics and is definitely NOT the guy in the middle; I ASSUME that's Perkins, and I think he's very similar to the guy on the barrel wagon. That's definitely a doofy looking guy on the right, the same one with the rigid dummy-like hands remarked before. But there are some shots of the OTHER guy, the one I assume is Perkins, that look equally silly to me in a different way... bland and cheerily smiling and unmonsterish like some dweeb from the office dressed up for Halloween. Elsewhere the same guy (at least it's not the Parker guy) seems to be getting into the spirit of the thing very nicely -- grabbing Ilona, scrunching his mouth, etc.

It's all very confusing... and it does seem to be vaguely possible that there might actually be 3 guys involved... but I really don't want to go there.

Say, where's the head crack on the Parker guy? Is it a freak of lighting, or is the head scar prominent on one guy and not on the other? This could be a fluke of inconsistent makeup on different days, but it might be a key to ID too. Haven't had time to go back and look at everything carefully.

Ted Newsom (10/23/05 4:33 am)

Re: Another look... at faces ------Peter Lorre called himself and other actors "facemakers." They scrunch up and twist and rubberize their faces to make some sort of dramatic point. Witness: Why do we have to assume that because a given image, still or moving, does not resemble another image that it is necessarily a different person? I think the scrunched-up FMW monster looks like the guy doubling Chaney in GHOST. Except that it IS Chaney in GHOST. And it ISN'T Chaney in FMW (except when he's doubling Eddie Parker.)

I've got pictures of me-- hey, everybody has pictures of themselves-- that I think are either unflattering or don't look Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------252 anything like me. My ugly evil twin or something. But that doesn't mean it ISN'T me, I just WISH it wasn't.

We've seen frame blow-ups of Glenn Strange side by side with blowups from the same scene-- jeeze, the same TAKE, the same ANGLE-- that don't look like the same guy. But we know it IS the same guy.

So why do we have to make up some weird, complex multiple-stuntman situation to compromise between what is known-- that Gil Perkins doubled the Monster, and Eddie Parker doubled the Wolf Man-- with what has been repeated apparently erroneously for thirty years-- that Eddie Parker doubled the Monster?

This is assuming that Gil Perkins was telling the truth, and I have no reason to doubt it.

I think there's one shot from the lab-floor level of this, and maybe a long shot following that showing the Wolf Man running over to the staircase. This is followed editorially by a reverse angle atop the staircase with the Wolf Man grabbing the Monster, the Monster dropping the Fake Shemp Ilona, and tumbling backward. And then there is (if I recall) a closer angle of the two monsters wrestling (and I remember you can see the Monster's white undershirt.)

Perkins recalled carrying Ilona Massey. This would indicate that he is the Monster who picks up Ilona Massey, yes? I'd say by extension that makes him the Monster who carries her double up the stairs. Yes, yes, despite the problem that we all think he looks "different." So does Glenn Strange in HOUSE OF F. And in A & C. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------253

And I don't think there's any arguement that the guy atop the stairs with the Fake Massey is the same guy who does the windmill-waving with the stiff arms. Which would therefore be Perkins again. Lighting and position differences aside, this "new" Monster double still has the same straight-edged nose visible in other Presumed Perkins scenes. Who knows, maybe Roy Neill actually told him to imitate Lugosi's straight-arm actions. I dunno.

Perkins said later (I think this was quoted by Jack's Garage) that he was called back after shooting the fight scene to do some pick-ups, stuff that Lugosi wouldn't do or couldn't do. I'd say ONE of those scenes was the ice scene-- since the set is dressed differently and the ice looks entirely different. If those 2 or 3 shots were the only ones to pick up in that sequence, it stands to reason to use Perkins, still in make-up, to do an insert shot of bursting the straps-- assuming, of course, that he didn't do it on the day all the OTHER stunt work was done. You mean after Perkins did an acceptable job through the picture and was called back after that to do pick-up shots, they went out of their way for ANOTHER day of pick-ups and hired somebody else entirely? That's sounding more and more incompetent, or severely unlucky. Reshoots after reshoots? It's a wonder Universal even validated Roy William Neill's PARKING after that. Wait... he kept directing for them for three years... hmmm. Maybe there's a simpler answer.

Sir William of Ockham has a razor we should use: the simplest explanation that covers all the known facts. Or, in the words of Basil Rathbone in another Roy William Neill film, "When you have eliminated the Parker, whatever remains, no matter how mooshed up the face is, must be the Perkins. I am Sherlock Holmes, I know everything."

Joe Karlosi (10/23/05 7:32 am)

Re: Ice Monster Redux ------That photo of Parker from THE LONE RANGER (with his hands up) looks very much like the monster bursting his straps to me.

I now think there are definitely two stuntmen playing the monster - those comparison shots provided by Taraco of the monsters prove it.

Quote: ------Perkins recalled carrying Ilona Massey. This would indicate that he is the Monster who picks up Ilona Massey, yes? I'd say by extension that makes him the Monster who carries her double up the stairs. ------

I think it's certainly him in the famous publicity still (also on one of those lobbycards) where he's carrying her while facing foreward and looking down at her to his left; maybe this was what Perkins was remembering, or perhaps it's him actually walking up the stairs with her, ... but I think it's mainly Perkins when he first grabs Ilona with his scrunched-up face. After a cut back to the Wolf Man on his table, there's a new shot with another guy with that fleshy nose tip (Parker?) who hoists the woman and is atop the staircase, getting tackled from behind by the Wolf Man. These two monsters look different, and they emote differently.

Yet it's back to Perkins footage when the monsters tumble down the stairs. Maybe we can examine their undershirts?

------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!" Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------254

Edited by: Joe Karlosi at: 10/23/05 9:03 am

HalLane (10/23/05 8:08 am)

Re: Another look... at faces ------OK I'm back! My last post just vanished in a flurry of EZCODES, and I have no idea how to restore it, so I'll try to remember what I just said.

The above images finally worked (thanks for the bullet, David!). Sorry I'm late to the party, but you all seem to be heading where I was so many pages back, so I think It's gonna work out. I can't help thinking of that story where all the blind guys are holding different parts of an elephant. I think it's time to assemble the pieces. Genetic characteristicts such as clefts are common; I have one myself. But acquired characteristics such as a busted bazoo are specific to both an individual and a time frame. The photo on the left, as Tom Weaver will attest, is from Radar Patrol vs. Spy King in 1950; the one on the right is from The Masked Marvel in the Year of Our Lord 1943, not so many months removed from FMTWM. I know that Count Gamula beat me to the punch here but that's good, as you've all had time to experience the awe and mystery of Eddie's broken beezer. Take another look at the strap busting scene--I see it there and always have done, especially when you actually step thru the DVD. The wonderful sequence posted by Ted above brightens up what I feel was a deliberate attempt to keep Eddie's shnoz in the shadows. Since you can't light every scene like this, it goes a long way toward explaining why Eddie isn't in more closeups--and here's the part Ted's going to like--I don't see him anywhere else--I think its all Gil, except for the barrel scene, where I think it's time to hum the THIRD MAN THEME. Is anybody happy? (I know I am, now that I have a handle on this image business)

Edited by: HalLane at: 10/23/05 8:45 am

Joe Karlosi (10/23/05 8:51 am)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1953) ------In the shots where the monster bursts the straps, he also has fuller lips, a la Parker. ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------255

Chesterbelloc (10/23/05 9:47 am)

Re: Another look... ------I'll put in a vote for Parker being the Monster when breaking off of the lab table. The ice Monster looks more like Perkins, and the barrel thrower looks like(gulp) Bela to me. taraco (10/23/05 10:03 am)

Re: Another look... ------One more ... But even with that, THE ONLY ACTUAL EVIDENCE WE HAVE, except for decades of reports that it was Parker,

is this from Tom Weaver's interview with Gil Perkins:

TW: Getting back to you playing Frankenstein and the Wolf Man--through the years, it's always been Eddie Parker who's gotten the credit for doing the stunt-doubling in those pictures.

Perkins: Well, Eddie Parker did--Eddie did some of them WITH me. When I did one of the Frankensteins, he did the Wolf Man in the same picture. But I didn't do all the Frankensteins, just a couple of them. In one of the ones where Eddie played the Wolf Man, the beautiful Hungarian actress Ilona Massey was the gal in it, and I [as the Monster] had to carry her around this basement with all this broken-down stuff in it. All she had on was a very pale blue, see-through negligee kind of thing and I think she had a pair of shorts, but she had no bra or anything like that. She was almost stark naked! I can remember somebody saying, "Jeez, I'd like to get this dame somewhere where I can DO somethin' with her!"--I think that was a guy named Wes Hopper, a stuntman in those days. I had to carry her around in this cellar, with all the flood waters comin' down over all the crap that was in there.

Is it possible we are underestimating this sentence from Perkins???: Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------256

"Well, Eddie Parker did--Eddie did some of them WITH me."

Yes, he then mentions that Eddie played the Wolf Man, but, but ... It's an intriguing phrase ... Did some of WHAT with him? Several Frankenstein pictures? Several Monster stunts? Just playing the Wolf Man to Perkins' Monster?

Where does all this leave us? I'm afraid it leaves us with Perkins as the Monster and a possibility based on photographic evidence that it COULD have been Parker in a few scenes as well.

I very much hope Bob Burns can offer his thoughts as well soon. david Edited by: taraco at: 10/23/05 10:16 am

TomWeaver999 (10/23/05 12:13 pm)

Re: THE LIST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1931-1953) ------I KNOW I asked Gil Perkins some follow-up questions, and that he gave a few dead-end answers that I did not transcribe. And I'm annoyed about that because now, even dead-end answers MIGHT provide a clue. I definitely remember asking him what else he did as the Monster, in various pictures, and he said he couldn't recall offhand; but I do NOT remember if I specifically asked him if he sat behind a wall of ice as Lon Chaney bashed it down. A yes/no answer to THAT would be a big help now, of course. But I now don't remember if I asked about the wall of ice and the answer was no, or if I didn't ask. (I was 20-something, you gotta cut me some slack.)

I DO vividly remember asking him what he did as the Wolf Man, all prepared to hear some big revelation of him playing the character in a key, classic scene, but he said that all he could remember ever doing as the Wolf Man was doing some running from point A to point B in the forest (I assume he meant a forest set) -- he couldn't "pull up" anything else Wolf Man-wise out of his memory. And this was a guy whose memory was such that he could often tell you what year, and sometimes even what season withIN a year, he worked on a movie ("I remember in the summer of 1935 I did a picture called...") -- and when I'd double-check him, he'd be right.

I remember he started talking about MIGHTY JOE YOUNG and who all the stuntmen in it were, and who got hurt, and even (again) mentioned the months-year it was shot. When I asked him what HE did in it, he said, "Oh, I wasn't in it." But he remembered who WAS, and what they DID, and when they DID it. That was the joy of talking to Gil Perkins, he knew everything and everybody -- even about movies he wasn't connected with! -- and remembered 96, 98 percent of it vividly. (And all with that charming Aussie accent.)

ANOTHER memory, one that won't help but I'll throw it out anyway: At one point he told me that, for the Stuntman's Association, or some university, or SOMEthing like that, he sat down and talked about his career for many hours. Maybe FMTWM came up, maybe it didn't, but ... that umpteen-hour interview is out there some place.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------257

Joe Karlosi (10/23/05 12:53 pm)

Re: Another look... ------Quote: ------the barrel thrower looks like(gulp) Bela to me. ------

Me too, Larry - that is, the guy who first sits cramped uncomfortably in the wagon. the actual barrel kicker/thrower I do not think is Lugosi. ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Ted Newsom (10/23/05 1:30 pm)

Re: Another look.. . ------At last an arguement based in fact and semantics rather that phrenology (to which I'm now devoted. We should all hire on to CSI.)

"He did some of them with me."

Taken in context as a rejoinder to Young Tom's query, this does sound like a correction: that Perkins knew Parker, but that he also knew Parker didn't play the Monster. It could, however, mean they were simply assigned to the same films and did swap roles. In the overall context of the interview it does not sound like he's saying that, but it could be read as an ambiguous answer.

The broken beezer close-ups are very interesting. I don't for a moment buy the arguement that they took extra time to re-light the set to work around a stuntman's barely-noticable broken nose.

And placing Parker on the table gets us right back into the exceedingly-hypothetical situation I noted above, in which a director (and producer, and unit manager) were such unlucky, inexperienced morons that, not only did they not get a simple shot on the day that everything else in the sequence was scheduled, they screwed it up a second time during re-shoots, and had to then schedule yet ANOTHER day to haul in an alternate stuntman, put him through a three hour make-up and costume ordeal, just to bust through some breakaway straps.

It's not that it couldn't happen, under wacky circumstances. I had no idea dePalma doubled Strange in A/C, for instance. But in that case there were at least 2 practical reasons, Strange's foot injury and the proximity to fire. Plus, there is actual documentation (via Mank via Universal) proving the point.

Here we have nothing of the kind.

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------258

Bill Warren (10/23/05 2:34 pm)

Re: Ice Monster Redux ------I see no reason not to accept the idea that some of the footage of scenes set in the lab/basement in FMWM didn't work for whatever reason, and were reshot later, perhaps several days or a week later. And that whoever did the stunts the first time around wasn't available the second, so they used another guy. After all, the continuity lies in the character, not the actor playing it. This kind of thing is common, and was even more so back in the big studio days, when everything needed was still right there at hand, where studio execs, producers, directors, very often did reshoots well after the main production wrapped.

taraco (10/23/05 3:04 pm)

Re: Ice Monster Redux ------I agree. As the stuntman in A&CMF reveals, changes and reshoots DO happen all the time.

Unfrotunately, and this is as we narrow our focus, there also is no proof that that happened with Perkins/Parker.

The visual evidence seems to show two people -- or two radically different makeups -- but even there I doubt any of us would testify in court that either makeup is one stuntman or the other.

We have Perkins' interview, and we also know Parker was on the set. That's about all we really know at this point.

But we're not done yet! Other opinions welcome... david

Bill Warren (10/23/05 3:21 pm)

Re: Another look... ------Quote: ------Unfrotunately, and this is as we narrow our focus, there also is no proof that that happened with Perkins/Parker. ------

No, and without a paper trail there will NEVER be any proof regarding this; even then, that wouldn't necessarily constitute proof. However, there is compelling evidence; your last-posted set of photos seem to me to clearly establish that in the shot you posted, Eddie Parker is playing the Monster. And there's no reason to doubt Gil Perkins' claim that he played the Monster in other scenes. Therefore, two different actors did the Monster stunts, at least in the fight scene. The question remains of why two were used. Based on Hollywood practice, reshoots seem the most likely explanation.

The only reason that this is still a controversy, it seems to me, is that some people have a hard time accepting the idea that two different stunt men worked in the footage shot for one sequence. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------259

taraco (10/23/05 3:32 pm)

Re: Another look... ------Well, everyone's entitled to an opinion. You could even argue that some people -- including me! -- keep looking for Parker even though there's no actual evidence except what we've been told for decades.

Anyhow, I have to say if pressed to the wall all I could say for sure is that Perkins says HE was the one playing the Monster, but that there's ample visual evidence someone else -- presumably Parker -- might have played the Monster as well.

I'm intrigued by Tom's recollection that Perkins gave a more substantive talk or Q&A somewhere. Worth pursuing... david Edited by: taraco at: 10/23/05 3:47 pm

HalLane (10/23/05 3:50 pm)

Re: Ice Monster Redux ------

Just a couple more Eddie profiles to chew over (I know you've seen one before). I'll just point out the Charlie Ogle nose and Andy Gump chin, and note that Gil Perkins has a ski-jump nose and a strong chin. (I think I hear the wife coming. Now I see why so many of you do your posting in the middle of the night. Later...).

Edited by: HalLane at: 10/23/05 4:00 pm

TomWeaver999 (10/23/05 4:18 pm)

Re: Another look.. . ------In REVENGE OF THE CREATURE, we could be seeing John Lamb, Ricou Browning and Tom Hennesy in the Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------260

Creature suit in a 30-second stretch, all in the same scene. Just (fish) food for thought!

Gil Perkins profile shot in the BLACK WIDOW chapter of VALLEY OF THE CLIFFHANGERS, if anybody's got a copy.

HalLane (10/23/05 4:29 pm)

Re: Another look... ------Speaking of re-shoots, wasn't it Gil Perkins who talked about doing reshoots to cover Bela's missing dialog, or did I dream that. Now here's a quick thought: if Bela's monster has just gotten his sight back, as his magnificent closeup indicates, and the monster has been talking all through the picture, can you imagine Bela not having something to say as he bursts the straps? He may have even talked his way through the whole fight, like Spider-man! There had to have been retakes. blackbiped (10/23/05 4:33 pm)

Re: Another look... ------Quote: ------can you imagine Bela not having something to say as he bursts the straps? ------

There's a thought. Maybe that close-up of him raising his arms in triumph with a big smile on his face, right before the Wolf Man makes his final leap, is from Bela's big "I AM ALL RIGHT!" scene. Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

TomWeaver999 (10/23/05 4:37 pm)

Re: Another look... ------I don't know how many drafts of the script there were (or if there was even more than one), but there's one place that could be checked, to see if the Monster was supposed to say something in the fight scene.

<< wasn't it Gil Perkins who talked about doing reshoots to cover Bela's missing dialog, or did I dream that. <<

A Westerns fan named Tim Lilley talked to Gil Perkins about FMTWM in a printed interview -- one that hasn't been quoted here yet. (I never saw it.)

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------261

Ted Newsom (10/23/05 5:06 pm)

Re: Another look... ------I think the Perkins phrase was "things Lugosi couldn't do or didn't want to do." Like freezing his butt off.

There's no indication in the film of a stunt man shot dropped into a sequence that replaces a dialogue shot as far as I can tell, and nothing in the published version of the script that sems to indicate this.

What precisely would you say in situations like the stunt stuff?

Frozen in ice "Gee, it's cold. Thanks for haulin' me out, stranger. Let's light a fire and warm up, I'll tell you my story, you tell me yours. Got some grub?"

Rolling barrels "Giddyup them horses, Friend Talbot, while I delay the villagers with these empty wine barrels. Heeyah! Look at 'em run! Now they know they've been in a monster war!"

Explosion in lab & falling debris "Hey, this wasn't in my grandiose plan."

Bursting the straps "Unnnhhh! Tight-- mashes right across my nipples-- ah, but I now have the strength of 100 men and shouldn't have a big problem with a little barber's strop. Ah! There we go! Much better! I can breath again. Where's that broad in the nightie?"

Carrying Ilona Massey "Hey, babe! I loved you in BALALAIKA. I think we're related. Do you believe in interbreeding between cousins?"

Fighting with the werewolf. "Gimme your best shot, fur-face! C'mon, you want summa dis?!?!?!"

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/23/05 5:08 pm

Joe Karlosi (10/23/05 5:12 pm)

Re: Another look... ------There is no dialogue during the climax of the film, at least not according to the MagicImage filmscript. ------"It's MORE ... than a hobby!"

Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------262 taraco (10/23/05 6:54 pm)

Re: ------I can't promise anything, but I'm putting on my reporter's hat and will try to reach any extant relatives and/or colleagues of Parker or Perkins. If anyone has any ideas -- I've emailed a few stuntmen experts -- please lemme know!

A very long shot but Frankenstein must have left some records of his experiments! david

taraco (10/23/05 9:33 pm)

Perkins on Skull Island? ------Here's an absolutely fabulous publicity still I discovered in the King Kong book, THE GIRL IN THE HAIRY PAW.

With KING KONG among Gil Perkins' credits (double for Bruce Cabot and also listed as a 'sailor'), is it possible the Gil-man is in this incredible shot? Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------263

Again, Gil Perkins might not be here at all. Is it possible it's this guy. Or is this Sam Hardy or Clement or...?:

He looks too familiar. Yet, the dimple...the dimple...

david 'We're millionaires, boys, I'll share it with all of you.' Edited by: taraco at: 10/23/05 9:41 pm

TomWeaver999 (10/23/05 9:47 pm)

Re: Another look... ------Gil Perkins was treasurer of the Screen Actors Guild for 17 years and (after his retirement) was made its Treasurer Emeritus. The Stuntman's Association ought to be able to help; he was one of its founders! When he died, he left two sisters and a daughter, Susan Perkins, that I used to occasionally talk with; she was then working at 20th Century-Fox.

No, he's not in that KONG picture. There's a picture of him in KONG in IT CAME FROM WEAVER FIVE (recently republished as IT CAME FROM HORRORWOOD).

Edited by: TomWeaver999 at: 10/23/05 9:49 pm

taraco (10/23/05 9:50 pm)

Re: Another look.. . ------>>No, he's not in that KONG picture.

Rats! (Then who is the guy I highlighted?)

And thanx for the other info, Tom.

taraco (10/23/05 10:01 pm)

Re: Another look... ------>>(I think I hear the wife coming. Now I see why so many of you do your posting in the middle of the night.

Exactly, Hal! My wife comes by these days and asks, so who played the Monster?

I say we still aren't sure.

She laughs and shakes her head as she goes back upstairs. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------264

Count Gamula (10/23/05 10:49 pm)

Re: Perkins on Skull Island? ------Here's a KING KONG photo showing Perkins from Tom Weaver's book IT CAME FROM WEAVER FIVE (now called IT CAME FROM HORRORWOOD) which Tom asked me to post.

Kerry Gammill

Edited by: Count Gamula at: 10/23/05 10:50 pm

taraco (10/23/05 11:26 pm)

Re: Perkins on Skull Island? ------Wow, it IS him!! We're really getting to know these guys now...Thanx Kerry (Tom)...

david 'Steady boys...'

TomWeaver999 (10/23/05 11:33 pm)

Re: Another look... ------The AFI CATALOG lists 48 actors as playing Sailors -- let's not start trying to identify all of THEM! ; )

georgechastain (10/24/05 8:58 am)

EDDIE PARKER -- Industry Giant ------But seriously, I found another solid verification for Ed Parker being a large character, despite photographic evidence to the contrary.

A box of old magazines related to serials finally surfaced in my basement, and those cliffhanger fans (including Tom Weaver, I noted, and Eric Hoffman, who's lurking and posting occasionally elsewhere) who put these 'zines together were very good about tracking down obscure serial people and asking questions -- though not the ones we'd most like Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------265 to have the answers to. I've found interviews with stunt performers like George DeNormand and Anthony Warde, as well as numerous actors, actresses and directors who knew and worked with most of the stunt performers we've been discussing -- but I haven't found them saying anything about horror films because they didn't get asked about them.

But here's a useful memory from legendary stuntman Tom Steele. It's from a long interview called "Unmasking the Masked Marvel" conducted by Peter Bosch and published in Jeff Walton's SERIAL WORLD magazine #37 (Spring 1984):

"I realized I wasn't going to make it as an actor, and I really had no desire to be an actor. When I started, nine of us were thrown together at Universal. We called ourselves 'The Cousins' and they were the greatest bunch of fellows in the business. We had Dave Sharpe, Loren Riebe, Jimmy Fawcett and Kenny Terrell. They were acrobats, they had done circus shows. Dave Sharpe, of course, had a background in pictures, way back in his childhood. He was in the OUR GANG comedies at Roach studios, he was in the Olympics. There wasn't a thing he couldn't do. Then there was Louis Tomei, Carey Loftin and Bud Wolfe. They were car men. Louis Tomei was a race driver at Indianapolis. Eddie Parker and myself, that makes nine. Eddie and I were in college and we were horsemen. I got into westerns without any problem because of my ability with horses. Eddie was a good fight man. He doubled John Wayne, the Duke, and looked like him, walked like him, big like him. We made a good combination. We worked a great deal at Universal, mainly because they couldn't afford the oldtime stuntmen .... I did a lot at Universal .... Through Dave Sharpe, I got over to Republic on the serials."

Keep in mind that Tom Steele was a tall guy himself, and his identification of another man as "big" is relative to his own size. I wish we had verifiable info on this stuff (maybe the Stuntman's Association does?), but the published claim that Parker was 6'4" seems quite possible to me from the film sequences and some of the photos I've been looking at lately. This is entirely speculative, and we'll probably never know the truth, but I think it's fair to say that it's FEASIBLE that he might have had an advantage over some of his colleagues when it came to playing big monsters. He WAS bigger than most if not all of them, and the attempts to belittle him in this regard are simply not justified. We have Tom Steele's word for it.

Edited by: georgechastain at: 10/24/05 11:26 am

Jacks Garage (10/24/05 9:07 am)

Another Look ------Happy B-Day Livio! Hope you're having a great one!

As for the Tim Lilley interview-I found one of the books (I just moved and so much of my stuff is packed away, I may NEVER get things straight again), but it's the one Tom mentioned earlier that doesn't contain the comments. Anyway, I don't want to muddy the waters with an unsubstantiated statement. The interview I remembered stated Gil had done some additional pickup shots-It seemed they were to cover some dialog scenes Bela wasn't available for, to reshoot. But again, it's probably best to ignore this info since I can't find the source. Too much good, info here to consider without throwing this into the mix.

georgechastain (10/24/05 11:08 am)

Another great Black Widow performance besides Gil Perkins' Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------266

------Quote: ------the profile from the BLACK WIDOW serial (which I don't have, by the way) ------

Totally off-trail, but my favorite performer in Republic's BLACK WIDOW serial is Theodore Gottlieb as "Hitamu" (sp?) the mystic in cahoots with the villains.

This guy is pretty obscure but he was much better known as the gruff, cranky old Germanic comedian "Brother Theodore" who regularly harangued David Letterman (and Merv Griffin and other talk show hosts earlier). He also appeared as the oldest member of the cannibal family in THE 'BURBS and in a handful of other film parts over the years. IMDb says his first role was in Orson Welles' THE STRANGER, but I've never been able to spot him in it. He did the voice of Gollum in the animated HOBBIT for television. He recorded a couple of extremely rare LPs, one of them recorded at a Carnegie Hall performance in the 50's. He had a one-man show that played for many years in New York City, and was still performing regularly until his death in his 90's just a few years ago.

I believe he came from a very wealthy Jewish family in Vienna who were wiped out in the death camps, and the family property was appropriated by the Nazis. He himself was rescued from Dachau by the alleged intercession of Albert Einstein, with whom Theodore used to play chess. he came to the US and got a job as a janitor at Stanford University (I believe), where he supplemented his income checkmating faculty members until he began doing his stage act and moved on to better things.

I LOVED his bleak, black, cynical sense of humor and his intense, over-the-top delivery, doing weird material like his own versions of Clark Ashton Smith and Edgar Allan Poe stories ("Berenice," about the dead loved one's teeth) and Ambrose Bierce's "Oil of Dog." Forry Ackerman used to try to promote him as a horror star in the pages of FM, and he really would've been a great one.

Sorry for the digression, but if anybody bothers to look at THE BLACK WIDOW, be sure to watch for Theodore.

Edited by: georgechastain at: 11/3/05 8:21 pm

Bill Warren (10/24/05 1:19 pm) Reply

Brother Theodore ------Theodore was in scenes shot for, but not used in, THE STRANGER.

Count Gamula (10/24/05 1:20 pm)

Re: EDDIE PARKER -- Industry Giant ------Quote: ------the published claim that Parker was 6'4" seems quite possible to me from the film sequences and some of the photos I've been looking at lately. Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------267

------

That's kinda hard to believe. One of the only characters we know for certain was Parker was the Mummy in A&C MEET THE MUMMY. In the scenes where he is standing right behind Lou Costello, he doesn't really tower over him the way you'd expect if he was that tall. In fact, he looks slightly shorter than one of the two fake Mummies (supposedly Micheal Ansara) in the scenes where the three Mummies are seen together. He also doesn't look that much taller than Marie Windsor in the scene where he tussles with her and you can see when he throws he to the floor that she's only wearing nomal heels. None of the photos I've seen lmake him look especially big. Maybe Tom Steele just meant that Parker was a pretty hefty guy. After all, Steele was pretty lanky. Kerry Gammill

taraco (10/24/05 1:28 pm)

Re: EDDIE PARKER -- Industry Giant ------>>In the scenes where he is standing right behind Lou Costello, he doesn't really tower over him the way you'd expect if he was that tall.

I noticed that, too. His Klaris is a short mummy... david taraco (10/24/05 1:44 pm)

Re: ------Thanx for the kind words, Prof. Griffin (and others).

We truly are trying to make this as definitive as we can, and the evidence, even when it is frustratingly ambiguous, is just plain fascinating.

What is particularly new is the ability to literally delve into these films frame by frame in a collective way. Add to that the participation of researchers and fans who have actually explored some of these things in the past, and it's an unbeatable combination of scholarship and fun. And quite wonderfully insane.

So onward as we continue to try to find proof that Eddie Parker played the Monster... david

Ted Newsom (10/24/05 1:48 pm)

Still more Theodore ------I was always a fan of Brother Theordore. On the old JOEY BISHOP SHOW (the late nite talk fest) he nearly got into a fist fight with insane ex-ballplayer Jimmy Piersall. He does an HYSTERICAL bit in a Rob Reiner TV mockumentary with Billy Crystal in multiple roles. The gag is, Crystal is playing Sammy Davis Jr. (dead on, baby, Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------268 complete with wandering eye) and the producer of some insane variety show wants Davis to perform "Who's on First" with Brother Theordore. "Hey, man, this cat is like out of his MIND!" They end up knocking the shtrtt out of each other.

And I had the utter delight in sitting down with B.T. in the late 70s (early 80s?) on the set of NATIONAL LAMPOON GOES TO THE MOVIES, just him and me in the vast Shrine Auditorium-- well, OK, there were about a hundred dress extras elsewhere in the theater-- and listening to him. COmepltely unlike his ominous stage persona, very soft-spoken, brilliant. A shame he never got the fame-- or even the professional stability-- he deserved.

Ted Newsom (10/24/05 1:54 pm)

Re: EDDIE PARKER -- Alleged Giant ------Quote: ------So onward as we continue to try to find proof that Eddie Parker played the Monster... ------

Hey, I had a thought which can confuse things a little more. There's another stuntman, Paul Stader, who is identified in SUPERMAN CEREAL TO SERIAL as Kirk Alyn's double in at least one shot, holding a locomotive back. The book reproduces a set-still with the man who's supposed to be Stader, in Supie costume, looking over his shoulder at the director.

This guy certainly doesn't look anything like Alyn, but I think he looks a lot like Eddie Parker. Is it Parker, mis-identified? Or (and here's the scary part), is it actually STADER in the strap-busting shot?

Edited by: Ted Newsom at: 10/24/05 1:55 pm georgechastain (10/24/05 2:42 pm)

Re: EDDIE PARKER -- Alleged Pygmy ------Quote: ------This guy certainly doesn't look anything like Alyn, but I think he looks a lot like Eddie Parker. Is it Parker, mis-identified? Or (and here's the scary part), is it actually STADER in the strap-busting shot? ------

The truth is as plain as the bulb on the end of your nose, Ted -- it's GIL PERKINS! And it's him as Klaris, too -- uncredited stunt double for Eddie Parker in A&C MEET THE MUMMY.

Strange how you can recognize Eddie Parker so clearly when it suits your purpose! But what the hell, anybody who likes Brother Theodore is OK with me! I envy your experience of meeting him, Ted. The closest I came was having a friend who was close to him in his last years, who did a small CD reissue of Theodore's Carnegie Hall album that I designed the cover for. My pal also got me Theodore's autograph on a still from THE BLACK WIDOW (can't be many of those around.)

So there may be something in what you say, I'll see if I can dig up my copy of that Superman book (Kirk Alyn doesn't seem to say anything about being doubled in his own autobiography, "A Job for Superman") -- and I'll TRY Unofficial CHFB Archives: Who Played Frankenstein's Monster ------269 to take what you say a little more seriously from now on. (Feh.) p.s. Tom Steele didn't say Parker was tall, you other guys are right -- but to me he certainly implied it because he said Ed doubled John Wayne -- looked like him, walked like him, was big like him. From Yakima Cannutt to Chuck Roberson, matching Duke's height was always an important consideration when he was doubled, and Wayne was 6'4.

But dammit, I missed A&C Meet Klaris just last night on TCM. I gotta check it out, I don't like it enough to have watched it in years.

Trust Me Themes (10/24/05 2:45 pm)

Re: EDDIE PARKER -- Industry Giant ------After going back and looking through all the pictures and comparing faces from shots from the film, I'm pretty positive that Eddie Parker played the 'stiff-armed' monster in some of the fight scenes...in fact the stiff-armed Parker does pretty horribly and is not convincing at all in his FEW scenes. In the two shots inside the castle just before the Dam explodes, you see Parkerstein on his back, arms still stiff and outstretched, basically just lying there while The Wolf Man quite furiously rolls over him. Then cut to the wick of the dynamite getting shorter, and shorter. Then you again see the Parkerstein 'throw', once again with outstretched stiff arms, The Wolf Man into one of the operating tables. Very next shot, The Dam explodes. I believe it was also parker who drops, as Ted called her, the Shemp Illona Massey on her behind when The Wolf Man attacks him from behind.

Every other non-Lugosi shot as the Monster (which is about 1/2 of The Monster's scenes) I believe to be Gil Perkins. He does make those facial expressions Tom talked about while grabbing Illona Massey (who wouldn't?) and while wrestling with The Wolf Man. So that would mean Perkins would've been in The Ice scene, in any fight scene shot that actually shows The Monster using his arms and hands to grab The Wolf Man, the barrel tossing scene, and the final fight shot when the water comes crashing down on them.

Livio

Bill Warren (10/24/05 3:27 pm)

Re: Still more Theodore ------Through Forry, Beverly and I met Theodore several times, took him out to lunch at least once. Nice guy, but seemed very down on himself.