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THE FIRST MEETING OF THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TWELFTH PARLIAMENT TUESDAY 08 DECEMBER 2020

ENGLISH VERSION HANSARD NO: 200 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY SPEAKER The Hon. Phandu T. C. Skelemani PH, MP. DEPUTY SPEAKER The Hon. Mabuse M. Pule, MP. (Mochudi East)

Clerk of the National Assembly - Ms B. N. Dithapo Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly - Mr L. T. Gaolaolwe Learned Parliamentary Counsel - Ms M. Mokgosi Assistant Clerk (E) - Mr R. Josiah CABINET His Excellency Dr M. E. K. Masisi, MP. - President

His Honour S. Tsogwane, MP. (Boteti West) - Vice President Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Hon. K. N. S. Morwaeng, MP. (Molepolole South) - Administration

Hon. K. T. Mmusi, MP. (Gabane-Mmankgodi) - Minister of Defence, Justice and Security Hon. Dr L. Kwape, MP. (Kanye South) - Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation Hon. E. M. Molale, MP. (Goodhope-Mabule ) - Minister of Local Government and Rural Development Hon. K. S. Gare, MP. (Moshupa-Manyana) - Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security Minister of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation Hon. P. K. Kereng, MP. (Specially Elected) - and Tourism Hon. Dr E. G. Dikoloti MP. (Mmathethe-Molapowabojang) - Minister of Health and Wellness Hon. T.M. Segokgo, MP. (Tlokweng) - Minister of Transport and Communications Hon. K. Mzwinila, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. T. M. Rakgare, MP. (Mogoditshane) - Development

Hon. A. M. Mokgethi, MP. ( Bonnington North) - Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs Hon. Dr T. Matsheka, MP. (Lobatse) - Minister of Finance and Economic Development Hon. F. M. M. Molao, MP. (Shashe West) - Minister of Basic Education Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Hon. Dr D. Letsholathebe, MP. (Tati East) - Technology Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Hon. L. M. Moagi, MP. (Ramotswa) - Energy Security

Hon. P. O. Serame, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Hon. M. Balopi, MP. (Gaborone North) - Development

Hon. M. Kgafela, MP. (Mochudi West) - Minister of Infrastructure and Housing Development

Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs, Governance and Hon. D. M. Mthimkhulu, MP. (Gaborone South) - Public Administration Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. K. K. Autlwetse, MP. (Specially Elected) - Development Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. S. N. Modukanele, MP. (Lerala -Maunatlala) - Development Assistant Minister, Agricultural Development and Food Hon. B. Manake, MP. (Specially Elected) - Security

Hon. S. Lelatisitswe, MP. (Boteti East) - Assistant Minister, Health and Wellness

Hon. N. W. T. Makwinja, MP. (Lentsweletau-Mmopane) - Assistant Minister, Basic Education

Hon. M. S. Molebatsi, MP. (Mmadinare) - Assistant Minister, Investment, Trade and Industry Assistant Minister, Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. H. B. Billy, MP. ( East) - Development Hon. M. R. Shamukuni, MP. (Chobe) - Assistant Minister,Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES

Names Constituency

RULING PARTY ( Democratic Party) Hon. L. Kablay, MP. (Government Whip) Letlhakeng-Lephephe Hon. Dr U. Dow, MP. Specially Elected Hon. M. R. Reatile, MP. Jwaneng-Mabutsane Hon. P. Majaga, MP. Nata- Hon. J. S. Brooks, MP. Kgalagadi South Hon. C. Greeff, MP. Gaborone Bonnington South Hon. T. Letsholo, MP. Kanye North Hon. T. F. Leuwe, MP. Takatokwane Hon. T. Mangwegape-Healy, MP. Gaborone Central Hon. S. N. Moabi, MP. Tati West Hon. T. Monnakgotla, MP. Kgalagadi North Hon. P. K. Motaosane, MP. Thamaga-Kumakwane Hon. O. Regoeng, MP. Molepolole North Hon. J. L. Thiite, MP. Ghanzi North OPPOSITION (Umbrella for Democratic Change) Hon. D. Saleshando, MP. (Leader of the Opposition) Maun West Hon. A. Lesaso, MP. (Acting Opposition Whip) Shoshong Hon. D. L. Keorapetse, MP. Selebi Phikwe West Hon. Y. Boko, MP Mahalapye East Hon. Dr K. Gobotswang, MP. Sefhare-Ramokgonami Hon. C. K. Hikuama, MP. Ngami Hon. K. K. Kapinga, MP Okavango Hon. G. Kekgonegile, MP. Maun East Hon. P. P. P. Moatlhodi, MP. Hon. T. B. Lucas, MP. Bobonong Hon. M. G. J. Motsamai, MP. Ghanzi South Hon. K. Nkawana, MP. Selebi Phikwe East Hon. O. Ramogapi, MP. Palapye Hon. Dr N. Tshabang, MP. Nkange Hon. D. Tshere, MP. Mahalapye West Hon. M. I. Moswaane, MP. Francistown West () Hon. T. S. Khama, MP. West Hon. L. Lesedi, MP. Serowe South Hon. B. Mathoothe, MP. Serowe North (Alliance for Progressives) Hon. W. B. Mmolotsi, MP. Francistown South TABLE OF CONTENTS THE FIRST MEETING OF THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TWELFTH PARLIAMENT TUESDAY 08 DECEMBER, 2020

CONTENTS PAGE (S)

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER...... 18-24

Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2020 (No. 14 of 2020) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)...... 1-17, 25-50

PRESENTATION OF GOVERNMENT BILLS Local Government (Amendment) Bill, 2020 (No. 24 of 2020) First Reading...... 25

Sex Offenders Registry Bill (Amendment) Bill, 2020 (No. 22 of 2020 First Reading...... 25 Tuesday 8th December, 2020 CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2020 (NO. 14 OF 2020) Second Reading

Tuesday 08th December, 2020 give credit to ourselves as individuals and believe that political parties are worthless. We cannot be saying these THE ASSEMBLY met at 11:00 a.m. things. Yesterday I talked about forgetting where we (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) come from, that we collapsed because of this structure but we were able to be resurrected. These were the kind P R A Y E R S of issues I was speaking to. When we have already made it to Parliament we should not think that we have made * * * * it by ourselves or because people voted for us, no. We MR SPEAKER (MR SKELEMANI): Order! know very well the importance of political parties, so, Honourable Members, good morning. Let us start let us stick to that. our business of today with the Second Reading of the As per our Constitutional dispensation, this Bill is back Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2020 (No. 14 of 2020). from . Any Constitutional Amendment CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) BILL, must be assessed by Borara. They should hold meetings 2020 (NO. 14 OF 2020) to hear the views of the people. They meet the community on a regular basis, so they already know the opinions of Second Reading the people. It is evident that Batswana support this Bill, they are tired of the frequent floor crossing. The freedom (Resumed Debate) of association that you talked about Honourable Tshere, MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, does not in any way impede freedom of expression. the debate on this Bill is resuming. When the House Even tomorrow after the Bill passes, you can leave the adjourned yesterday, Honourable Mangwegape-Healy (BCP), you are allowed. The was on the floor debating and he was left with 10 only thing that is stopping you is when you have been minutes 39 seconds. voted in through the UDC ticket and you want to leave with it. You are allowed to do what you want, so let us MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY (GABORONE not play with language to try to trick Batswana at home. CENTRAL): Thank you Mr Speaker and good morning. Yesterday when we adjourned I was talking about how LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): this law is strengthening political parties and the party Point of procedure. Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, leadership. Like my colleagues and I said, people vote it might not be the procedure that we have all agreed to, for parties. but it is for some of us. Yesterday a question was posed, and the answer was that we have set time for ourselves. Honourable Tshere, I was responding to you on the It was important that this issue is discussed at length. I issue of strengthening political parties. I want to want to remind my fellow party members of what we give you an example why it is important for political agreed on regarding our debates, so you should not be parties to be strengthened. I will use the Umbrella for surprised Mr Speaker when we take less time. We are Democratic Change (UDC) as an example; you had a looking at the fact that, this House has a lot of business situation where one of the leaders of the component of to deal with and many people have shown interest to the UDC did not have a constituency. The gentleman debate this Motion. I wanted to inform you that, we was all over the country trying to find a constituency have agreed on 10 minutes to cater for others. That is he can campaign for because your , being what I wanted to say Mr Speaker that, my fellow party an umbrella formation seeks to bring together different members should remember that we agreed to debate for parties. You had a situation where, the other contracted 10 minutes. We are not saying everybody should do the parties sacrificed for the good of the organisation such same, it is voluntary. I thank you Mr Speaker. that one political party traded its rightful constituency MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you Mr to enable the leader of one of the components to have Speaker. I will continue by saying that, our fellow party a constituency. Even those in his party had blocked, Members are… as well as where he grew up, the likes of Sticks and others did not want to listen; they did not want to give MR TSHERE: Procedure. Thank you Honourable an inch. Therefore, we must be cognisant of these Speaker and thank you very much. Honourable Healy things whereby when we come to Parliament we now is saying that this law does not clash with Section 13 of

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the Constitution. Honourable Speaker, before we go any Speaker. further, we are misleading the nation maybe we should seek the opinion of Parliamentary Counsel to explain MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you Mr this matter. Thank you Speaker. Speaker. Honourable Tshere, I thought you learnt something at the 2014 elections, you had the freedom MR SPEAKER: Why can you not explain before you not to be in the Umbrella for Democratic Change ask Legal Counsel? What is out of procedure? (UDC)…

MR TSHERE: I explained yesterday and she HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. responded… MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: I will give you just MR SPEAKER: Explain, I was not in yesterday. now sir …and then you suffered the consequences of being outside for the UDC. You had freedom of MR TSHERE: …(Laughter!)… Thank you Honourable Association and you saw the consequences of that, that Speaker. Yesterday when I made my submission, I said there is Section 13 which states that, “you have is what I am speaking to, that is what this law is for, that freedom to associate and disassociate.” If we make a when you promise people something and turn against it, law which states that, when you disassociate, you will there will be consequences. This is what this law seeks be denied your rights of leading people, then that seems to address. to clash with this law. I was saying if Healy and I hold an opposing view, perhaps we can seek an independent ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL opinion of the Parliamentary Counsel. Thank you AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC Honourable Speaker. ADMINISTRATION (MR MTHIMKHULU): Clarification. Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! I do not think you need Healy, you should explain to them that, if we agree opinion of a Legal Counsel. You understand very well in Parliament that the constitution should be amended what freedom of association means. As I understand you then the amendment will be part of the Constitution Honourable Tshere, you can do whatever you like. You of Botswana. So all the sections of the Constitution of are free to join, to disjoin and you can go anywhere you Botswana are equal, none is above the other. So, you want. I do not see anywhere in this Bill where it says, cannot say since Section 10 says this and Section 11 you cannot do that anymore and you cannot do what says this, then it means Section 11 is unconstitutional. you like anymore. You are free to do that but there are They are all equal and we have to treat them in that consequences when you do that. If you are afraid of the manner because they are constitutional and affect all consequences, you are free to go on top of this thing of us as politicians. That is to say, any section of the and jump, you will die or break your leg. Because you Constitution is constitutional because there is a growing are afraid of breaking your leg, you are not going to go norm upon which we should derive any validity. Thank there and jump… you Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you MR SPEAKER: Yes! You can climb there, jump and Honourable Mthimkhulu, I have realised that Ambassador Kapinga is missing that side, so obviously break your leg. So if you are afraid of breaking your leg, legal matters might be a challenge for them because he you claim that you do not have freedom? Counsel, can is not there to explain these issues to them. you clarify that issue. Dikgosi; in the and in politics, there LEARNED PARLIAMENTARY COUNSEL has never been any Kgosi who stood for elections and (MS MOKGOSI): Thank you Honourable Speaker. lost. That is for a reason, Batswana identify with the Honourable Speaker, you explained it well that we structure... have freedom of Association and we have to face the consequences of that freedom. So the law that was DR GOBOTSWANG: Point of clarification. Thank you brought here is not in contravention of Section 13, even Mr Speaker, thank you Honourable. Before proceeding the ones who drafted it and the policy makers considered to the next point, since you claim to be concerned about the fact that, it does not contravene another law. That the interests of voters, what is your take regarding is the procedure when a law is made. I thank you Mr people who are rejected by voters, and then forcibly

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brought Parliament as specially elected members, and as you grow old, there are some processes which slow ultimately appointed as Ministers? What do you say down. This is proven scientifically that it is possible for about this procedure in relation to the interests of voters your hearing to be impaired. So I am not in any way sir? trying to say anything. So, let us proceed.

MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you I want us to go back to that issue Honourable Dr Honourable Dr Gobotswang. I really do not have Gobotswang, where you said that you were pluralizing, enough time to address it in details but it was addressed you never singled yourself out. You said that, if you yesterday. Let me tell you what I think about another are the one saying this as the shadow Vice President, one; last time you told us that there are some benefits since there are shadow positions, so you are the shadow that you get from Kgosi Kgolo, those were your words. Vice President right? I believe you wish you could be in So I want to repeat, the issue that, it is paramount to Honourable Tsogwane’s position. If the Vice President have a law about floor crossing before reviewing the of a party says that, you are a very senior figure within the Constitution because some Members of Parliament have opposition movement. If you say ‘us,’ my assumption is, already indicated that, they are interested in the benefits. you mean all members of opposition like, Honourable So if you have such kind of Members of Parliament who Saleshando, Honourable Hikuama, you said that you are only interested in getting benefitsthen it means that, joined Kgosikgolo for his benefits. So this bothers us anyone who comes with a brief case and tells them to when looking at Constitutional review because many do something, they will surely do it. So we cannot allow countries were destroyed and collapsed because of ourselves to be in a situation where... these benefits. We have these wealthy countries in the Southern part of Africa, but they are poor because of DR GOBOTSWANG: Point of procedure. Thank you these benefits. So Honourable Dr Gobotswang, we Mr Speaker. I understand the meaning of the Honourable cannot under any circumstances allow a comprehensive Member’s words and I believe he is deliberately saying Constitutional review when we have politicians who that because Honourable Balopi is not here, he is the clearly state that they joined a particular party because one who said it is time for them to benefit! Thank you of these benefits. It is possible for this thing to endanger Mr Speaker. this country.

MR SPEAKER: There is no procedure there. I will now talk about Magosi. There are many Magosi who stood for , I stand to be MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: I did not understand, corrected, but as I recall, there is no Kgosi who has ever Honourable Dr Gobotswang is old, so it is possible for lost elections and that is very telling. It tells us that our him not to hear my point. Let me repeat what I said people identify with an institution; they identify with Honourable Dr Gobotswang, the issue you raised last something. They do not vote a Kgosi because of their time... name but because he is the symbol of that particular MR SPEAKER: What is the procedure Honourable tribe. I am sure a lot of Magosi would lose elections if they were not representing any tribe. Honourable Mmolotsi? Baratiwa Mathoothe, I believe you also know that had MR MMOLOTSI: Point of procedure. Mr Speaker, it not been for Kgosikgolo, Seretse Khama , I believe it is unprocedural for us to disrespect elders Phuti, you would not be here today. I would be surprised in Parliament, like Honourable Healy is saying that if I hear you tomorrow saying that you came here on Honourable Gobotswang is old and it means people lose your own individual capacity when we all know that their sense of hearing as they grow old. I think he is Bangwato were protecting their Kgosi by voting for ridiculing elders because I do not think he directs these you. So the fact of the matter is people vote their parties. words to Honourable Gobotswang only, he is mocking To this day, we have never had with the exception of elders out there. In that manner, our mandate is to Honourable Modubule, who I am led to believe was protect our elders when we are in Parliament instead of voted by members of (BNF) mocking them Mr Speaker. because he was a member who they believed was expelled unfairly. I am yet to see a member right here MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you Mr who is not linked to any form of politics, someone who Speaker. No, I am not mocking elders Honourable is an independent candidate wo won elections. I thank Mmolotsi, I am talking about the nature that, naturally, you sir.

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MS MONNAKGOTLA (KGALAGADI NORTH): MS MONNAKGOTLA: I was talking about divorce. If Thank you Mr Speaker, and good morning. I am standing you are married, it might be till death do you part or you to support this Motion. I thank residents of Kgalagadi can divorce along the way. So I compare this Motion North for voting a member of Parliament of Domkrag, to divorce. If you divorce, you consult the parents and Honourable Talita Monnakgotla who is also a woman... your bridal team that I no longer want to be married to this person. So do not cross over with the seat, that is not HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. how it should be done. If you divorce, you consult. That MR SPEAKER: Do you want to represent Domkrag? is why I am saying, this Motion is like marriage because there are consultations involved. HONOURABLE MEMBER: No I just wanted to assist you Mr Speaker, they had agreed to debate for 10 So, if you cross the floor go back and consult. Even in minutes but this one was allocated 20 minutes. marriage after you divorce, you are going to start afresh, parents and your bridal team are going to sign for you MR SPEAKER: They had agreed that they should give again. Therefore I liken this Motion to marriage, the themselves 10 minutes. It is not a rule of this House, it moment you divorce you start afresh. Go to the second is theirs. That is why I did not make any ruling on your parent as you did with the first, take the same steps to comments. It is their problem. enter the second marriage.

MS MONNAKGOTLA: Thank you Mr Speaker. Voters should be consulted. As Talita Monnakgotla Let me continue to say the I was voted under Botswana Democratic Party at Democratic Party, led by His Excellency President Kgalagadi North so I will be unfair if I could just cross Masisi believes in consultation. This kind of Bill the floor without consulting the people. I should go and requires consultation. I am saying this because if you consult them. I support this Bill that there should be re- have been voted by people, and you decide to take a election so that the voters can also see which decision different route, you should consult them. This is wrong, I believe this kind of practice is cheating the voters to make and do right by them, they should decide that because you are stealing their votes, yet they voted for since we voted for you under the Botswana Democratic you with love, as you campaigned under the ticket of Party ticket, do we continue do so. It is up to them, do Botswana Democratic Party led by His Excellency the not make a decision for them. Let them make their own President. decision like they did when they voted for you, let us not make decisions for voters. It is not right. During campaigns I was using the manifesto, slogan and symbol of the Botswana Democratic Party. I did Let us look consider these factors as Members of not campaign as an Independent candidate. I compare Parliament and Council. Let us not cheat voters because this Motion to marriage, if you are married there is a when we campaign we paint ourselves as angels, so let District Commissioner who solemnizes your marriage us not be unfair to them. This is wrong and we are being dishonest to them. That is why they do not vote for you and if you want to divorce, you go back to those offices after you have crossed the floor with their votes, that is to inform them. You would have also consulted your what happens because they want the party they voted parents and the bridal team. So why is it so difficult to for. So let us be fair to our voters. With those remarks, I consult your leadership and voters when you decide to thank you Mr Speaker. cross the floor? MR RAMOGAPI (PALAPYE): Thank you Mr DR GOBOTSWANG: On a point of clarification. Thank Speaker. Mr Speaker, I am embarrassed by the Bill that you Mr Speaker. Thank you Honourable Member of had been brought before us, tabled before us because Parliament for Kgalagadi North, you almost concluded the presenter stated that there was a motion tabled by well, I thought you will conclude by asking yourself Honourable Kokorwe in 1998 so you wonder why after whether a law can be drafted stating that, if people get all these years he is suddenly bringing something that married they should not divorce, and that if they divorce has been on the shelves for so long gathering dust. Mr they will not re marry. In other words, if you are married Speaker, we have to take this as a serious embarrassment. you are in it for good, there is no divorce. This is the same thing you want to do between a candidate and Secondly; we should know that the opposition once their party, what is your opinion regarding that issue chastised the ruling party for enticing people by giving Honourable Member? them posts if there are no posts they were told that if

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they defect to their party their lodges will be rented and ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION they cross the floor. This is now embarrassing as it now (MS MAKWINJA): On a point of procedure. Thank seems like this is a new Motion brought by the ruling you Mr Speaker. Thank you Honourable Ramogapi. party and it is their pride and joy. … Did Honourable Ramogapi not hear the Parliamentary Counsel (PC) explaining that this law does not The truth that we are supposed to be saying Mr Speaker contravene the Constitution? Thank you. is that, Domkrag is scared, because Botswana Patriotic Front (BPF) is putting pressure on them. When we are MR RAMOGAPI: That is why I asked whether you in a football game, there is a situation where we say know, the Constitution Section 13 states that one has the guys this team is putting pressure on us, and they are Right of Association. So that is where I have stopped! even coming with dangerous tactics. The teams that No matter what someone says, or what they advise, I am have come to this game being Umbrella for Democratic telling you how I understand it. Change (UDC), BPF and Alliance for Progressives The other issue Mr Speaker is that, this law contravenes (AP) are putting pressure on this game. So when we the whole Electoral Act. First of all the Electoral Act put pressure in the game, our colleagues are panicking, states that the candidate, first has to register for elections, they want to overcome the pressure by using the law. and then register in the voters roll. There is nowhere Honourable Members, this is not how things are done, where it says the party name will be registered. It says learn to listen to your elders of Domkrag (Botswana that you will register to vote. Democratic Party). The second thing that makes this proposed law to I will mention one of your veterans at Domkrag Mr contravene the Electoral Act is that, when the candidate Daniel Kwelagobe who was the Secretary General for a who is representing the party loses the elections, they very longtime, he said, “this law is cruel and oppressive are the ones who appeal not the party. Members of , it is not good”, He said people should be left to have Domkrag, open your eyes so that we can teach you. the right of association, and freedom of association, he This is why the Botswana Democratic Party is going tried to give you advice. You said you will advise and after the candidates of UDC who had lodged cases at be advised, and you will ask people. Even members of court. They are not after any party, they are after the Domkrag who could be your elders and could advise candidates who appealed to the high court regarding the you, you do not listen to them. What kind of people are election process. . So we are saying this law of yours… you? You need to be aware of these things, if you are HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… now turning against your elders, you should know that you are now out of line. MR RAMOGAPI: You say you want money from them because you dismissed the cases with technicalities, you Honourable Member, I am certain, I am saying this law refused to have them prosecuted because you are hiding contravenes Chapter 2 of the Constitution, Section 13 is the dishonesty that took place. clear, it talks about Right of Association, that a person has the right to choose a political party of their choice. The third thing Mr Speaker, this law also clashes with the That is the most important issue. So if someone has a Electoral Act when we talk about the issue of expenses, right to join Domkrag, and you take away that right in this Electoral Act it states that the candidate should from them using the law then that is not good. You have indicate the expenses he/she incurred during elections. to understand these things and know the kind of laws If they do not state any expenses it means that, action can you are making. This law… be taken against them in Parliament and they will just be dormant. I will not say or do anything. The reason being HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. that, the focus is on the candidate. So today Mr Speaker, when you hear me telling you that these people do not MR SPEAKER: Procedure Honourable Makwinja. have a stand, they are a problem, and they bring us a MR RAMOGAPI: Do you know the procedure law that is against other laws. That is why we are firmly Honourable Makwinja? standing here saying, you could have at least brought the whole Constitution here to be amended. That is MR SPEAKER: We do not know. why we are saying to you, at least amend the whole

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Electoral Act, not to bring an issue of First-Past-The- and I were where we were, they changed subsidiary Post, because it is like you want to take us to the issue laws of Sowa Township Authority (STA) so that they of Proportional Representation (PR). So the PR system would be able to include…back then the regulations is the one we could be using, where a party assesses and did not allow people to come from outside the Nata- decides who to appoint and where. However, the current Gweta constituency. So, they modified the subsidiary system we are using is where a voter gets there and they legislation so that they would include Mr Allan Lekwape are told that, if he/she has passed then they have won. who had lost in Selebi Phikwe, Mr Mzwinila and Mr So if we want to review it, then let us review the whole Kitso Seloma, who were taken from far away. Are you Constitution, and make an arrangement where a voter surprised that these people do that to satisfy themselves? can have a say. MR RAMOGAPI: Thank you sir. You know them The other issue we should remember in this is that, as better Wynter Mmolotsi. They are our grandparents, members of UDC, we wish you could implement a law we came from there. You know that when you are whereby…the voters are complaining that they do not dealing with your grandmother, you deal with her see you members of Domkrag, they say you have used gently, knowing that her days are not far off. Therefore, them. Right now artists are complaining that members the days of the BDP (Domkrag’s) demise are not far. of Domkrag have used them, they said they sang for What you are saying, is indeed true. I am not surprised. them and campaigned for them and they promised that When they want to do whatever they want to do, they they will take care of them but they have turned their bend the rules until what they want happens. I would backs on them. You could be implementing a law which like to add to what you have just said that, when former states that, if a party is not doing what they promised in President Masire retired, he amended the law so that their manifesto, we can recall the elections. Batswana there would be automatic succession, preparing for want that law. A person would just be sitting doing Mogae so that when his turn came he would just come in nothing, not visiting his constituency, and not fulfilling automatically. We are tired of things whereby when you the promises he made of manufacturing an electric car, want something you will squeeze yourselves in even if creation of 100 000 jobs. Batswana say there should be there is no space, forcing matters. What are you doing? re-lections so that people can be given a fresh mandate There is no room for this Bill, so please do not squeeze rather than to remain there for five years. So that is why it in. This is not a good thing Mongwaketse. If you do we are saying, let us change everything, and you can see that, that is wrong. what the artists and events managers are complaining about. They are complaining that they want to vote You can also look at how the elections are conducted, Domkrag out, they cannot implement this law, let they can see that it is tough and things are not supposed them implement the one that says that when they have to be done in that manner and then they, they would failed, we should go to the elections again so that we still think that the law should be bent, and they should can vote them out. That is what they want, and they are increase the number of Specially Elected members, saying they should be the power to recall a Member of making their numbers more, and one would wonder Parliament or the party. Those are the issues we want. what these people really want. Honourable Members we are not jealous of Specially Elected members. We Mr Speaker, these people are astonishing. When they wish people with special skills may come and assist us went for elections they were boasting saying we are in Parliament, that is fine, it can be done. So making going to have an exclusive Government where there will these people to come and neutralise our numbers, be consultation. Ah! Mr Speaker, I am seeing this for the looking for higher numbers we are saying, this is not first time in Parliament, a Constitution being reviewed good for the country. Members of the BDP (Domkrag) in secrecy. A Constitution is not dealt with in secrecy please calm down and listen to what the people out there by 28 members of the BDP (Domkrag). We have to go want, what is their biggest concern? What Batswana are to the people and hold Kgotla meetings, going house to crying about it not Khama. As for you, what you have house saying, “People here is a Bill, what do you think?” come here for, when you say you are amending the MR MMOLOTSI: Clarification. Thank you. Constitution or doing whatever, you would be having Honourable Ramogapi do you see this as surprising the former President Khama at the back of your minds. because every time they want to satisfy themselves, We wonder if the problem with you is Dr Khama or it they change laws? If you may recall the time when you is the lack of jobs. Our Kgosikgolo is always involved

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and blamed for everything. All the Bills that you have, it MR RAMOGAPI: Let us proceed Mr Speaker. Mr is either you are asking yourselves how you can reverse Speaker, when you look at our issues are, we should something that was brought by Khama because Khama look at democracy as a whole. For example Mr Speaker, is giving you sleepless nights, taking your members, so when we take the Serowe constituency alone, there are you are trying to bar him. You have forgotten the nation, six Councillors from the BDP (Domkrag) which were you are now marking Khama only. Hey! That is not elected; one, two, three, four, five, six. The Councillors how you govern the country. When you are running the from Botswana Patriotic Front (BPF) are 11 in number country, you stay above the factions. You become like and that having been the case; the BDP (Domkrag) an eagle; you go above, you have a long-term vision, through its powers shamed the voters, and specially considering what you can do for the people; something elected some more so that they would surpass the 11 better that can take them somewhere. Our Constitution who were elected; it nominated six more. Just look at as a whole… that! They distorted what the people wanted. They made sure they go against what the people wanted. Do you call MR SALESHANDO: Elucidation. Thank you Mr that democracy? Members of the BDP (Domkrag) just Speaker. Honourable Ramogapi you said something see how you are Just take a look! My friend Honourable about ‘offending the voters.’ I think I also heard Autlwetse was rejected by people in Serowe; they said, Honourable Autlwetse mentioning it, that it offends “We are not voting for you!” And now you even said “we voters, to see someone they voted for joining the other are promoting him over and above Honourable Majaga party, and coming to Parliament and drive the mandate and Honourable Kablay, we are making him a Minister.” of that party. How do the people feel about Specially If anything, they could have made Honourable Kablay Elected members, they rejected Honourable Kgotla Minister of Local Government. These are painful things. Autlwetse during the elections but they are seeing him Now when we say we are amending the Constitution, in Parliament commenting on the issue of floor crossing, you need to sit down and consider all these things. You Moreover, he comes here to debate saying it is not good will find out that there is someone in Parliament who for the voters, yet he was rejected by voters who did not has never experienced election expenses. Most of the want him to come to this Parliament. Does that not show time they come under the Specially elected ticket. They hypocrisy? would have no idea how it feels to spend on elections…

MR RAMOGAPI: That is very true Leader of the HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Opposition (LOO). I wanted to pounce on them with MR RAMOGAPI: …(Laughter!)… That is our that point at the end of my debate. challenge. Those are the challenges Batswana are HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… facing, so let us consider all of them and address them.

MR RAMOGAPI: If you can look at the hypocrisy of MR MMOLOTSI: Elucidation. Do not forget that one the BDP (Domkrag)… of the Members who was debating this issue as if she was joking is Honourable Dr Unity Dow who was rejected HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure. by the people of Mochudi in the primary elections, and she was brought to Parliament by force. She is the one MR RAMOGAPI: Where did you get that from? who was debating, making fun saying this is running away with people’s votes. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MS MAKWINJA): Procedure. I thank you Mr MR RAMOGAPI: I thank you sir. My minute is gone; Speaker. I thank you Honourable Ramogapi. The nation the main point is that we should consider the whole out there is listening Mr Speaker when he says we are Constitution. My aim is not to point a finger at anyone. after Dr Khama, the former President of the Botswana We are saying the challenge of Batswana is the entire Democratic Party (BDP), whom we loved so much, and Constitution. Bring it Morwaeng! You opposed the we still love him; now someone is saying we are stopping Motion of interns here saying Rakgare is reviewing. We his programmes. I would like Honourable Ramogapi to are also opposing this one, and we are saying the whole Constitution should be brought, you said you were tell us which programmes we have cancelled. reviewing it so all these things should be included. We MR SPEAKER: Honourable Ramogapi, continue. cannot do the piecemeal approach every now and then.

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Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) members, let us do primary elections, clarify that point. You are telling the things properly, taking into consideration the fact that truth that in 2014, 6000 voted for me, 8000 people voted the nation is watching you. You might be having more for Mr Mangole, and he came to this Parliament. Today, numbers, but the nation is watching you so do things most people here did not even reach 6000 votes but they properly and stop ruining things. You are trying to come are here. Right? They are here today. So I was saying… up with tactics to steal funds, you are not doing anything members of Botswana Democratic Party (MaDomkrag) HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)…

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF YOUTH DR DOW: No, do not shout, do not shout. Debate like EMPOWERMENT, SPORT AND CULTURE gentlemen if you are. Do not shout! DEVELOPMENT (MR BILLY): Thank you Mr This is my clarification; it seems like arguments are Speaker. Let me focus on the Motion that has been influenced by the days of the week. On Monday, presented before us. The Motion before us talks about Honourable Saleshando does not want SEMP, on reviewing the , and it precisely Tuesday they argue and present their manifesto alleging selected floor crossing. that this is their idea, it is in their manifesto. Today, they People have to realise that as we are opposing floor are saying that they do not want it. Basically the issue is crossing, we are protecting democracy. When we went that, they always oppose. When you say B, they say C, for elections, we went to the nation and presented when you say C, they say D, they have no stand on any manifestos of our parties to them. Independent issue, including the one concerning SEMP. Do you want candidates presented their individual manifestos. So it or you do not want it? when you win as an independent candidate, you have to MR BILLY: Thank you Honourable Dow. This know that people who voted you, did so because of the Motion…Honourable Dow, I thought that this is the promises that you made as an independent candidate. If Motion that they are going to support from Botswana you decide that you do not want to be an independent Democratic Party (Domkrag). Honourable Members, candidate, what we are saying is that, you should do let us pay attention to the fact that Botswana will not be away with the procedures of being an independent candidate, go to the nation and tell them that you are the first country to adopt this Motion. now contesting under Alliance for Progressives (AP). I started off by explaining that we have to pay attention What we have to know is that, since you are taking to democracy and protect it. We are here because we the decision that you want to defect from your party were fortunate enough to be voted by 5000, 10000, to another party, you already have your rights because people, bringing us here. If now we decide to leave the decision that you are taking is your right. You also the agreement…this is a contract. When you are voted have to take the rights of your voters into consideration. into this House, you come with the contract that you Honourable Ramogapi, how many people voted for are going to represent Umbrella for Democratic Change you? 5000 people voted for you, and now you are (UDC) and your constituents are the ones who offer you making a decision that serves your personal interests, that contract. So, when you renege the contract, you not the interests of your voters. have to go back to the employers and tell them that you cannot continue to use their resources to do the job that DR DOW: Clarification. Thank you for yielding they assigned you to do. What then happens? Then we Honourable Member. Maybe you should clarify; have a re-run of the elections. Your rights are not taken imagine that you are a Motswana who is at home, who away from you, when there is a re-run you are going to is listening and wishing that we could talk about issues continue having your rights. that can develop their lives. Every day the only issues we debate on is that we want Specially Elected Members MR SALESHANDO: On a point of Clarification. of Parliament (SEMP), and the following day we do not Thank you Mr Speaker. I heard the Member of want SEMP. It is basically just opportunistic argument. Parliament (MP) for Francistown East saying that we Today I noticed a spark on the other side of the isle, I do are not the first country to implement the changes that not know who was debating. That Honourable Member they are proposing. We are using the First Past the Post said that Honourable Dow contested for primary Electoral System. Which other country uses First Past elections, and she did not win them. I did not contest for the Post system like us and has blocked floor crossing?

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Because floor crossing is a feature, it is part of First Past article so that there is equality, the person who has been the Post. Tell us the names of countries which use the voted should not be the only one who can resign while same system, First Past the Post but not allowing floor the voters do not benefit anything. They should be able crossing? to punish you. Those are the ethics that they can punish you with, and you account for them; your voters. That MR BILLY: Honourable Member, I expect that when is the only consultation that the voter can get from you, you come and debate a Motion like this one, in the to punish you with it. This is something that we have to position that you are in, you will be able to tell me that pay attention to when we talk about floor crossing. this particular country changed because of these reasons. Let me inform you Honourable Member that when you HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. go for elections, you will agree with me that as you are here Honourable Saleshando, UDC has given you a MR BILLY: Honourable Members, what is floor contract to come here and represent Maun. When you crossing? Floor crossing is cheating. Cheating, because violate that contract, you should go back to the people when you contested for elections, you did not say that and tell them you are withdrawing from the contract you have other intentions.You never mentioned that you because you are not able to use the resources that they are going to change your pledge. If you change your have given you, and then we will have a rerun of the pledge, it means the ideology that you came with is no elections. Your privileges are that you resigned from longer there. Therefore, we need to go for fresh elections. your position and you are going to contest for elections Why are you afraid of fresh elections? In Botswana again. This means that you get two rights; you resigned normally voters vote the party and not individuals. This from the position that you were appointed in, and you tells you that when you go for elections they assess our are going to run for elections for the second time, those manifestos. are your rights. I believe that majority of Umbrella for Democratic HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. Change (UDC) members are here today because you told old people that you are going to increase their MR BILLY: Where are the rights of your voters? They pension. You are here because you told old people that can only get their right if there is a re-run of elections. you are going to increase social welfare allowance. You Those people should decide whether they vote the party are here because you told Batswana that you are going that you were representing or they vote you again under to create jobs easily. Now you want to lose focus of a different party. what you told Batswana. Now you want to lose focus on issues that you talked about. You should be aware that You have to know that Namibia; Article 48, Nigeria; when you are voted… Article 68, Seychelles; Article 81, Sierra Leone; Article 77 le Singapore; Article 46 explain that, if you are voted HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… under one party, and you no longer want to serve under MR BILLY: You are not chairing Honourable Member. that party, there should be a rerun of elections. These When Batswana out there vote for you, they believe countries go for elections when a Member of Parliament that you are going to do what you agreed on with them. (MP) or a Councillor resigns from the position that they Batswana are very committed to their parties, especially were holding or the party that they were voted under. BDP supporters. They love their party very much. Just because today you have made it here you want to take HONOURABLE MEMBER: Correction. advantage of winning elections and floor cross looking MR BILLY: That on its own, you have to pay attention at your interests. There is no party which does not have a system. If you do not agree with the system of the party to the point that I raised, that if you resign, you resign that you won under, resign and go for fresh elections. your position that you were voted for under the party What is your fear of this law? What are you afraid of? that you contested under. What is it that you are protecting?

When we went for elections, Botswana Democratic Party HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… (Domkrag) explained on page 49 of our manifesto that we are going to make sure that there is equality among MR BILLY: Those are the things that you have to citizens of Botswana. Equality in the sense that; when consider very carefully. Why are you doing that? I have we amend the Constitution today, when we change this explained that this thing of constantly floor crossing

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affects the stability of the country. The investors HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… consider the stability of a country. They know that the ruling party is BDP. If we all floor cross to UDC, after MR LELATISITSWE: What we know is, they are they have made their investments and they are now in intending to oust Boko. Now if this law passes, it means a country that is governed by UDC which they do not it is going to be hard. In the last elections we did not trust whether it will protect their investment,. Where have BCP. Therefore Batswana should realise what kind are you? I want that noise? It is dark…(laughter!). of people these are. I am here because I have been voted You must know that the stability and economy of by BDP. I cannot go anywhere because this is what I the country will also be affected. There is no country have agreed with my constituents for these coming five without international relations. No country would want years. to have a relation with a country where today one party MINISTER OF YOUTH EMPOWERMENT, wins elections and tomorrow the party that won is no SPORT AND CULTURE DEVELOPMENT (MR longer in power, another one has come in because the RAKGARE): Elucidation. Thank you very much people who were ruling have crossed the floor. Floor- Honourable Lelatisitswe. What you are saying about crossing is very dangerous and you should know that Honourable Keorapetse is very true. Over the weekend, floor crossing has consequences. That is something that UDC President, Gideon was welcoming we need to be careful of. Honourable Moswaane in Francistown. Honourable Therefore I support this Bill Amendment. I am doing Keorapetse was the only one supporting Mr Duma Boko. so because I am protecting the rights of the people who Ramogapi, Honourable Hikuama, Honourable Lucas, voted me. I am protecting democracy. I am protecting the Honourable Nkawana; all BCP Members of Parliament lives of the nation. I am protecting the economy of this (MPs) were not there but Honourable Keorapetse was country. I am protecting the investment of Botswana. I behind Boko and he is behind UDC. rest my case. MR LELATISITSWE: Thank you Honourable ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH AND Member. WELLNESS (MR LELATISITSWE): Thank you Mr HONOURABLE MEMBER: Do you not know that Speaker. Firstly, let me indicate my support for this Bill there is COVID and the limited number of attendance before us. Mr Speaker, I am not shocked by the outcry is 50? from the Opposition side. Most of the time they are the ones who cross from one party to the other. Again they are MR KEKGONEGILE: On a point of procedure Mr not confident of the recent national elections. Batswana Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I rise on are watching all these things and they are listening. They voted for UDC and today when we say let us protect Standing Order 57.1. You always say, let us keep our you, they refuse and want to cross the floor. Mr Speaker, eyes on the ball. We are here debating Constitutional this is an indication that people were pretending. They Amendments. They are bringing in matters irrelevant to deceived Gideon Boko who was the party President. what is being discussed. Mr Speaker, please take charge We saw men such as Dithapelo Keorapetse, flying with of this House because Batswana out there want to hear President Boko eating prawns while Saleshando was how the Motion of floor-crossing is going to benefit or walking. Mr Speaker, we observed these things. not benefit them. Where Honourable Keorapetse was HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… over the weekend, is quite irrelevant to this discussion.

MR LELATISITSWE: Today when we want to protect MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Member, their Manifesto where they indicated that they are going I think he is quite relevant. What he is saying is, the to pay pensioners P1500 and others P3 000, they stand reason you are opposing this Motion is because it makes up and oppose that. We heard why they are saying that. you uncomfortable. The only person he sees being loyal It is rumoured that their main aim is to unseat Boko. is Honourable Keorapetse. They have started being affiliated to their party colours, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… it seems Honourable Keorapetse is the only one who is loyal and still seen constantly with Gideon Boko. Others MR LELATISITSWE: Thank you Mr Speaker. such as Hikuama and others…I do not know what the Today I am very grateful. Most of the points I could position of Honourable Tshere is? have shared have been raised by Honourable Healy. Mr

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Speaker, we are heading towards Constitutional review DR GOBOTSWANG: I am standing on a point of order which require stability. If you consider what Honourable sir. This is the result of coming late, you are lost and do Ramogapi, Member of Parliament of Palapye was not know what is happening. Mr Speaker, I request us to saying, you can tell that even though he was voted by look at the Hansard to see if I said that we came here for Umbrella for Democratic Change (UDC), his interests benefits because the Honourable is repeatedly saying it, are with Kgosikgolo and his party, Botswana Patriotic so that this issue is settled once and for all. Honourable Front (BPF). That is what he is thinking about. My Balopi is the one who said that it is their time to eat and advice therefore is Honourable Ramogapi, take this they wrote about him everywhere. Thank you. opportunity to leave because you do not even have a single councilor. MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT MR RAMOGAPI: Point of order. Mr Speaker, (MR BALOPI): Point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable Lelatisitswe is putting words in my mouth, I request Honourable Gobotswang to withdraw like he kindly put him to order. usually does because we agreed that we are not going to bring issues written on the newspapers to this House as MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! I think he is saying they are not true. what he thinks you meant which might not necessarily be the case for all we know. Secondly, I never said what was written on the newspapers at any time. If we are going to continue to MR LELATISITSWE: Thank you Mr Speaker. I was bring rumours here, should I believe what I know, what saying this Bill requires us to think about the future. someone told me, that indeed Honourable Gobotswang We were here last time when Member of Parliament for once lost his mind and went to perform some rituals? Sefhare-Ramokgonami who is also the Vice President Am I really allowed to bring such issues because that of Botswana Congress Party (BCP), made such a huge was just grapevine? I never said that. You are also free statement and I do not understand if he was directing it to stand up here and confirm that your behavior was not to Tswapong Region or UDC. He mentioned that, he is influenced, it is only that you lost your mind at some interested in getting benefits. We believe this is a huge point and went to perform some rituals? It is out there statement when looking at the Constitutional review. and people are just commenting socially, should we If at all we are heading towards Constitutional review bring those things here? No we should not! I want to and a member is interested in getting benefits, then we you to remove this thing because I never said that. If have a huge problem. On the other hand, residents of you want to debate on issues which can assist Batswana that constituency are wondering why they sent someone going forth, stop bringing things which are unnecessary who is interested in getting benefits. I am saying this to this House. I thank you Mr Speaker. because the time when we do Constitutional review, we MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, are going to deal with difficult issues which concern I had hoped Dr Gobotswang that we would not have to our tribes Mr Speaker. So if your leader is interested in go and take time with the Hansard partly because before getting benefits, it means they are going to lead people Honourable Lelatisitswe took the floor, a different astray. So these are not issues… Member had been harping on the same thing of being interested in benefits, vis-à-vis you, and I thought you DR GOBOTSWANG: Point of order. Mr Speaker, it are just having a light talk. Not that you as I know, seems like the issue of benefiting is getting out of hand. you are going to stand up in this Parliament and say, I do not understand why they talk about benefits from another member simply came here for benefits. I do not time to time especially that I never said that statement. think you ever said that. Since I was not here, I think Mr Speaker, I request you to look at the Hansard to see Honourable Gobotswang, can we ask the Member on if I said the statement that Honourable Lelatisitswe is the floor as he continues with the debate, to leave that talking about. I never said those words. Honourable subject on benefits so that we do not stop and go for the Balopi is the one who mentioned that a time has come Hansard to find out if that is really what he said, it is not for them to benefit and it is recorded in the newspapers. yours? Will that help Honourable Dr Gobotswang? Internationally… DR GOBOTSWANG: Indeed, Mr Speaker, let us keep HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. our eyes on the ball. Thank you.

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MR LELATISITSWE: Thank you Mr Speaker. As as Tshere, you knew who your President is; it is Gideon leaders, we are expected to be trustworthy. I never Boko but today you want to change, people of Mahalapye expected it but as we proceed with our business, it is already know that you want to vote for Saleshando to be easy for Batswana to tell which party is followed by President who has started engaging with other parties… members on the other side from their discussions, but when they come here, they intend to leave and to get MR TSHERE: Point of procedure. Mr Speaker, I freedom to join other parties. This Bill does not restrict thought Honourable Lelatisitswe is joking when he any member from leaving their party. mentioned this issue and will leave it but he is repeating it and no action is taken. It seems like as the opposition we MR MMOLOTSI: Clarification. Honourable are divided but we are uniting with Botswana Patriotic Lelatisitswe, you must also cover the issue that it Front (BPF) and Alliance for Progressives (AP), we are is possible for a party to kick you out without even becoming stronger. I wonder why he assumes we want consulting your voters just like we have witnessed in to abandon the President of Umbrella for Democratic the past, that sometime they do not have knowledge Change (UDC). Take action against him, let us name about that. In this particular case, what do we say about him. those who are expelled by a party or the President of that party? For example; when Ms Venson-Moitoi tried HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Laughter!)… to campaign as a President of a party, she was ridiculed MR TSHERE: Thank you Mr Speaker. on the basis that she is not a Motswana even though they always treated her like a Motswana, the challenge MR SPEAKER: You wanted to call him out? It is the only rose as a result of her campaign. So what do we say politics which I do not understand. about voters in a situation whereby the leadership of a MR LELATISITSWE: Thank you Mr Speaker. There party is kicking a member out? is a Setswana saying, go lela e e tlhabilweng, meaning MR LELATISITSWE: Thank you. This is a good that where there is truth, that is when there will be a point Honourable Mmolotsi. I believe you know very lot of issues. Mr Speaker, as I am about to draw to well what happened in Bobonong such that you ended conclusion, as the Honourable Members said, we are up being here. The law also protects you in that kind waiting for a major Constitutional review which require of a situation. If they kick you out, voluntarily if you stable minds. It is now time as Keorapetse wrote on his have not resigned, you have nowhere to go because Facebook page that if you wish to cross, do it now so you are representing the interests of your people. If you that you are where you want to be… really read and understood what they wrote, this is what happened in Bobonong; if you are fighting with a public HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. servant who is at Maun, or if they are kicking you out of MR LELATISITSWE: …do not be this side if deep the party like you were saying, you chose to stay behind down your heart you are a member of UDC but you want and represent the people of Francistown. That is exactly what is going to happen going forth sir. Mr Speaker, the to be referred as a member of BCP. Make a decision other issues of concern have already been mentioned by now, if you are in Botswana so that Batswana know the the Honourable Members who debated before… kind of person you are, I am referring to you leaving. We see some already crossing the floor at Francistown MR TSHERE: Point of clarification. Thank you or is it . Batswana should realise that they very much Honourable Speaker and thank you very have been with a hypocrite. This shows that the person much Honourable Lelatisitswe. I heard you say there was not a leader, he was waiting for an opportunity. is freedom to associate and disassociate under this condition. So I see some similarities here, I do not know This is the time to make a decision, Honourable Wynter, if you perceive them the same way as I do, during, Idi if you want to return to Botswana Democratic Party, you Amin’s era if you had the freedom of speech, but you can do so. Honourable Ramogapi, if you wish to cross did not have freedom after the speech. Is that where over to BPF, BPF wants you back you can do so and the country is going to; to Idi Amin and likes of Robert break that small umbrella. Mugabe? Thank you. Mr Speaker, going forward we want serious people, MR LELATISITSWE: Thank you Honourable who are united to discuss the major issue before us Member. I think you will take time to study this Bill of Constitutional Review, which a lot of merafe in and at the end realise the truth. When you campaigned Botswana have been complaining about. Section 77, 78,

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79 which is going to affect the majority of us here so I HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)... do not want a situation where during its discussion we start crossing floors as some Members have shown that MR MMOLOTSI: He should withdraw those words they want the side where the grass is greener. It means Mr Speaker because they dismissed me without even they can just be bought together with their merafe and wanting to hear my side… end up misleading the nation. So Mr Speaker, when we HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... discuss such things, I want everyone to be stable when we discuss this review. In fact it is a good thing that this MR MMOLOTSI: Botswana Democratic Party. They part was presented, it was intentional so that when we dismissed me because they did not want to be advised. do major review in future we would know that we are So he should not say I crossed the floor when he knows stable, no one will want to cross over to Keorapetse, what they did and what they are attempting to do now is their intention should be clear about where they are just so that they can take total control so that tomorrow affiliated to. if the leader does not want to go by car he can simply use a person as transportation, saying, Fidelis, on your I thank DGB (Duma Gideon Boko) because he stated knees I now want human transportation. that he is the future President of UDC, whether some HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)... like it or not or whether Hikuama or Kekgonegile can try some tricks. They should also learn that if you go DR GOBOTSWANG (SEFHARE- form an umbrella and think that it can run the country, RAMOKGONAMI): Thank you Mr Speaker. I stand we witnessed that in the Botswana Democratic Party, to oppose the Bill tabled before us of floor crossing. The it is dangerous. You should also learn from this as it sad part is it is presented by Honourable Morwaeng, a person who enjoyed being a member of all political is very dangerous because a person will always serve parties that ever existed. their own interests. You should also learn that this is our country, everyone can have an opportunity to run it. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Applause!)...

I do not know where Kapinga is because I heard his DR GOBOTSWANG: It is very insensitive on the intentions, I am not sure though if Nkawana agrees with part of the Botswana Democratic Party (BDP), to have them. He wanted to take over the BCP leadership so I charged the Honourable Member with the responsibility am not sure if these issues requires our stability going to come up with a Bill that prohibits nomadic lifestyle forward. Mr Speaker, we do talk about these issues as when he is the beneficiary. Anyways perhaps they were Members of Parliament. thinking his Assistant, Honourable Mthimkhulu might present but the problem is he is also the beneficiary of Mr Speaker, I support this Bill, Batswana should be these things. united and understand that we are protecting them. Honourable Members, the truth is, this Bill is full of Members who commonly run away with their votes are panic emanating from Honourable Members of the ruling numerous that side; we have Tshekedi, he once crossed Government. If you talk to experts of the Constitution the floor with the votes for Botswana Democratic Party, not these other lawyers I see here who come across we have the likes of Bagalatia, he once crossed the floor and make political statement and think they are talking to Botswana Democratic Party, Moswaane he is now law, Constitutional lawyers if you talk to them, they speech problems … will inform you that when there are such Amendments HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Laughter!)… in the Constitution, there should be the dejure and the defacto; the de jure, tells you what the law is saying. MR LELATISITSWE: …we have the likes of Wynter, The de facto is the way people perceive issues and he once crossed the floor. There are so many. believe in them, even though it may be unlawful. So law experts are saying, in regards to this issue we are talking HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. about, when it comes to law, voters vote for Members of Parliament, but what people believe and the way our MR LELATISITSWE: Thank you Mr Speaker. culture is, they believe that they are voting for parties. MR MMOLOTSI: Point of procedure. Mr Speaker, The truth is that, all these issues are a combination of the before he sits down; he cannot tarnish my name and sit two. You cannot separate the two. Both are important down. factors in voters making decisions of how they vote.

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So the skies were not going to fall even if we did not they can fit or they should just sit after they have been pass this Bill like they wanted. Nothing was going to nominated, because they were not voted by any party happen. That is why you will find that, there are two they can align themselves to, what do you think? types of voters. There are voters who vote for parties, no matter who the election candidate is. Most of the DR GOBOTSWANG: Thank you Honourable Member. voters nowadays vote for representatives, that is how These people of handbags, if we were really serious, they could be getting in Parliament only to assist with it is, from a long time ago. Right now can we explain ideas, but they should not vote because they were not how Honourable Ramogapi was voted as a Member of voted by anyone. They got here because of reasons you Parliament, when he almost went to Parliament without will never understand. any Councillors from his party being voted and he managed to get there with two of them being voted for? So there is a reason by Domkrag that we have long In 2004, Honourable Dumelang Saleshando, I believe consulted Batswana and they agreed, and this idea he went to Parliament with only one Councillor from his is wanted by Batswana. You cannot come with a party being voted. What does that mean? If people voted referendum which was conducted 22 years ago and use for a party, will the Councillors not have been voted for, it in the current times and you say that how things are, because they should all be voted for? That indicates Batswana have changed., Domkrag around 1960/70, that, people assess candidates that, even though we like used to say that even if we can put a donkey to contest the Parliamentary candidate, but when it comes to the against Honourable Dr Gobotswang, we know that we Councillors, we do not trust some of them. Then they are going to win. Batswana of this time are not like that, start to vote for Councillors by mixing them. they have gone through that situation. They assess the candidate and see whether they are competent enough So that is an issue that is there. Like Honourable to represent them. So the unfortunate thing is that, even Members were saying that, if we want to strengthen though they say it is the idea and feelings of voters, the issue of voting for political parties, there is only sometimes even when people do not want that candidate one solution, Proportional Representation (PR). That is like my brother Honourable Autlwetse whom they were the only one that can ensure that we vote for parties. very clear that they do not want, but he was brought Also when it comes to it there is no saying, hey! You are to Parliament, and he was even given the position of going to register at Sefhare-Ramokgonami, and others Assistant Minister, when the likes of Honourable Leuwe register at other places, or what is the permanent place were there, my in-laws, the likes of Honourable Brooks, of residence. There will be no issues like that. We will Honourable Monnakgotla, Honourable Motaosane were be registering anywhere we like, and we calculate the there and they were voted for, then he is given that number of votes a party got, and Members of Parliament position, not knowing what the reasons were. are appointed according to the number of votes they MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION got. That is the only electoral system where you can say AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MS MOKGETHI): parties are voted. That is just how it is. Clarification. Thank you Honourable Gobotswang for So the people who have enjoyed leaving parties after yielding. You said a consultation was done 22 years ago they were voted from a long time ago, is Domkrag and Batswana have changed and are no longer feeling (Botswana Democratic Party). From the 1960s up to the the same way, I would like to know from you whether 1990s, they we in paradise. People left parties, the likes you have ever done any consultation. Thank you. of Honourable Billy Buti, left their parties and went to DR GOBOTSWANG: Thank you Honourable Domkrag. They benefitted from people leaving their Mokgethi. You are on the right track, you are getting parties. where I am going. You are a good deployee. Where MR HIKUAMA: On a point of clarification Mr we are at the moment, if we want to continue this idea, Speaker. You are addressing it very skilfully, I did not we would rather go to the Law Reform Committee so wish to disrupt your flow. I want you to say something that they do the consultation. Everyone here who has here. In this system we are using there are cases where ever done even basic research would know that you Members of Parliament are voted for by Parliament; cannot use data of 22 years ago to make decisions today. Specially Nominated Members of Parliament (MPs). In Evidence-based practice will never allow that. That is this arrangement, do you think there is anywhere where the issue that is there Honourable Members.

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MS MONNAKGOTLA: Clarification Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable Minister Morwaeng took a decision to bring this Bill to Parliament, so what DR GOBOTSWANG: If at all it is witchcraft, the witch I would like to know from Honourable Member is that, or wizard who has bewitched them is no longer alive. If if he has realised that this House is leaking and needs to they were alive, I bet they could have long reversed the be repaired, will he just leave it and let the water drip curse against these poor people. in? Thank you. MR MMOLOTSI: On a point of clarification. Whilst DR GOBOTSWANG: Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you are still on that point, do you realise Honourable you Honourable Monnakgotla. We will talk about that Member that every time there is something that these over refreshments. people want to satisfy themselves with, they amend the law? Just like last time when they realised that The issue that I want to address is that, there are some Honourable Reatile whom they had poached from the people who have been specially elected Mr Speaker who Botswana National Front (BNF) had lost elections, come to Parliament to advocate for other people, and they specially nominated him to Council. When they when they get to Parliament, they just reject everything realised that that office was too small for him, they which is the wishes of the people. So, these are the amended the law and increased the number of Specially people whom we need to implement a law for. The ones Elected Members by two, so that they would bring him whom when we ask them not to abolish the Ipelegeng to Parliament. I am not saying I blame Honourable programme without coming with another programme Reatile, but what we are trying to show is that they because people are suffering then they refuse. When we satisfy themselves. tell them to consider the VDC (Village Development Committee) employees who have long been crying In addition, at some point when they lost a case at court they refuse. They will now have to be voted by people whereby it was said the marking of examinations by at the polls but when they get here they represent teachers was an extra duty on the side. After they lost Domkrag only. Yesterday they were rejecting the idea that case, they now came to Parliament to amend the law that interns are suffering, and they are complaining. The to say marking is part of the duty of teachers. We refused living conditions are not easy for them, let us at least to agree with that and Honourable Dr Dow retracted that increase their allowances to P3, 000.00, they rejected suggestion; having brought such legislation to spite the that Motion. teachers, trying to satisfy themselves as they are trying to do here today. HONOURABLE MEMBER: They are representing Domkrag. DR GOBOTSWANG: I thank you Honourable Mmolotsi, you are very right. These men and women, DR GOBOTSWANG: They are representing Domkrag, if we were in football, they are the kind one would not tomorrow we might come with a motion requesting for play with because they would shift the goal posts, hence assistance of the creative industry, they are going to you would not be able to score. When they realise you refuse. Therefore, this issue, recall, it is what we could want to score, they would shift them forward. The way be saying Mr Speaker. You guys are candidates for the BDP (Domkrag) is, you cannot score when playing recall. Most of you members of the BDP (Domkrag), with them. I remember when we used to play with a ball if the voters were to be given a chance to recall some made out of socks. When the owner realised that the other Members of Parliament; most of them would not be here team is stronger, they would take the ball and go away next year because they have no idea what they came with it. That is how the BDP (Domkrag) is. That is the here for. They are just opposing everything, they go to challenge we are facing Honourable Wynter Mmolotsi. You want to run the party using the Constitution of caucus where they meet and when they come here, they Botswana. Those of you who are Specially Elected must oppose everything. watch out because the day they decide they no longer Even the bucks initiative, if you can come with a want you, they are going to come here in Parliament Motion talking about bucks; saying, “We really love and move that they are bringing a Bill amendment to this initiative, and we suggest that it should become a reduce the number of Specially Elected Members from Government programme.” They are going to refuse. six to four. You would be removed easily like that. Now These people have been bewitched. you are busy rejoicing and supporting them. What is the

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real reason for this Bill? The real reason is to save a not a BDP (Domkrag) manifesto, which you can amend party which is in trouble. The boat is sinking, you are in willy-nilly every election year. The Constitution is not trouble. The BDP (Domkrag) is falling apart. like that, it is a sacred document. Imagine if the Bible were to be changed and we gave the BDP (Domkrag) At Central District Council (CDC), Honourable Molao the responsibility to amend it every time they wanted… I feel pity for you because you think you can fight with us at the CDC. Just forget it sir, just pack your bags and HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… go because there is nothing you can do. DR GOBOTSWANG: …the devil would be a pastor. This has been summed up by Honourable Healy that They would have already written how the devil and an the real reason is to stabilise the Botswana Democratic angel operate. They are not the type you can give such Party (BDP) Government. That is all. It is a very a responsibility to. After the Bible, the Constitution is unstable Government and party. For some of you and next, but you are using it as you please. Councillors, the bags are already packed, they are Honourable Members, during elections you told leaving. This is a year of exodus, so you want to lock Batswana that if you won, you were going to amend the the gates. If you can lock them inside you are going to Constitution. Now when we are hoping the Constitution fight a war you have never fought before because a pig would be amended, you are now saying how things and a dog can never be put inside a cage and locked should be done in piece meal. Why can we not do all in there. If you can do that you are going to regret it things properly and complete them? It is what you have because you will not be able to chase them as you have been saying? Now when it comes to the Constitution we been obliged to remove a Clause which says when you were anticipating that a comprehensive Constitution is chase someone we are going to go for elections. So it is coming, but now you are talking about floor crossing. not there, they are just going to be that side, hence you This shows one thing; it shows you do not have the are going to fight the “dog-and-pig-in-a-cage” kind of intension to change the Constitution of this country. war. That is the only thing that is going to happen. When you talk about changing the Constitution, you What is also there is that there are writings on Facebook. mean coming with a floor crossing Bill. It means that Every single day at Central, they are moving from your is the furthest you can go. We need to tell you, those party and this cannot only happen at Central, and not of us whom your Constitution refers to us as minor only Councillors can leave. In the end, your Members tribes, we have long held on, we want a comprehensive of Parliament are going to leave as well because what Constitutional review so that we can also be like other you are sceptical about is that a Government which was people in this country. You should also bring some built on sinking sand can collapse, because you know pieces of legislation for us instead of saying, “hey! The that we only need eight or nine Members of Parliament country will go through this,” what kind of country? We to end your reign. In fact, many people believe that are not shaken. this Government will not reach 2024, at all. It is a MR SPEAKER: Your time is up! Government that has run out of ideas. DR GOBOTSWANG: I thank you Mr Speaker. When you see the ruling Government behaving like the opposition, opposing everything…If a visitor could HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… come to Botswana and they find us here in Parliament, they are going to be shocked that the opposers are MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR many. They would wonder how they are in Government MOLAO): I thank you Mr Speaker. Let me point out because ideas come from our side; and you are opposers. that I support this Bill. First and foremost, let me quote Richard Foltin of the Freedom Forum Institute Mr HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… Speaker, if you allow me.

DR GOBOTSWANG: They will really be confused MR SPEAKER: Yes, please do. wondering what type of democracy this is. Therefore this tendency of yours of protecting yourselves, of MR MOLAO: In his explanation he says, talking about running your party using the Constitution; the experts what we call an inalienable right; “is a right that cannot of the Constitution will tell you that the Constitution is be restrained or repealed by human laws. Sometimes

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called natural rights that flow from our nature as free selling drugs and other unlawful things. Where there is people.” Mr Speaker I am quoting these words because no stability, it is easy for either a terrorist organisation, the Honourable Members always say when you are a drug lord, war lord or a tribal lord to come and buy the Member of Parliament, this Bill will be taking away Government, and it does not matter who is governing your rights and freedom of association, and so forth. at that time. He/she would come with a lot of money and buy the Government, toppling the Government and I want to point out that we are just privileged to be here installing his/her own Government which is going to as Members of Parliament. So, when we abuse our serve his interests and not the interests of the nation. It rights by maybe crossing the floor now and then, these is important to have a law like this, because it can block rights can be taken by the law, they are not something threats whereby you can have a drug lord somewhere that cannot be taken by the law according to this Bill. coming with billions and buying the Government The thing is, this Bill does not hinder freedom of together with Members of Parliament and forming a association, freedom of speech, freedom of movement. new party. Toppling the Government which has been What it is basically saying is that if you were voted voted by people mid-term, and installing his/her own under a certain party and you want to defect, you are party to pursue his/her interests. Voters back at home free to do so but the law will take the privileges that you would not have anything to do. So, it is important for were given by the voters and there will be a re-run of this law to guard against situations like that because elections. Since some people are saying that voters were they can happen and there are already threats that they voting for individuals and not parties, they will vote for can happen. These things are real. them again if indeed they were voting for individuals Mr Speaker, I want to quote the statement of a prominent and not parties. member of the Botswana Congress Party (BCP) who So, the Honourable Members know very well that they has served in the Central Committee and contested for were voted through their parties, not as individuals and elections at BCP. He is respected for his opinions at his that is why they fear that their positions are going to party. If you allow me Mr Speaker. be taken away from them. So when these positions are MR SPEAKER: Who is he? taken away from them, they are going to lose elections. That is the only thing that they fear, but if they strongly MR MOLAO: His name is Diphetogo Maswabi from believe that voters were voting for them as individuals, Mmadinare. He posted on his official Facebook page. they should be free to go and contest again because voters are not going to be reluctant to go and queue again MR SPEAKER: Please do. so that they vote and send them to Parliament or Council MR MOLAO: He posted, “An official of a political again. So statements that are made here saying, “I am party has to be subservient to the discipline of his/her using my resources and my children’s resources, this organisation. It therefore, follows that when a member and that…” are really not substantial. The main issue is no longer compatible with his/her organisation, he/ here is that voters should be given a chance to give and she has to resign whatever position that would have take. The laws that we make here as the Government been acquired through that organisation. Those who say can help us to give voters a chance to give and take. This they are voted to Parliament or office on their personal Bill is straightforward, we do not know how and why strength, should contest as independent candidates.” it is making some people uncomfortable. Maybe they He further went on to say, “Regarding the above, do not feel at home at their political parties, there is no I am at a loss why Umbrella for Democratic Change peace and they suspect that they will be moved hence (UDC) Members of Parliament (MPs) are against they think that this Bill is going to be disadvantageous to them. floor crossing. Yes, bringing the Motion while we are looking for a Constitutional review is evidence that We are also talking about stability Mr Speaker. Stability Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) is not committed of the country is very important. During the last elections, to that process.” These are his opinions. He concluded we witnessed shocking things which we were not used by saying, “even then, UDC has no moral rectitude to to. Where sponsorships of parties came in different oppose the Bill.” A prominent BCP member who is well forms, from people with dubious characters, there were known at BCP and UDC for his opinions. I share the some allegations that some were once remanded for same sentiments with him, that those who…

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DR GOBOTSWANG: Procedure. Mr Speaker I can MR MOLAO: Honourable Members, this is what this hear where his debate is heading, he wants to drive Bill is emphasising and we have to support it. When a wedge between people. He should be quoting what we carry out a comprehensive Constitutional review, the person close to his heart is saying, veteran D. K. we will not have issues of floor crossing, we stabilise Kwelagobe. Mr Speaker, if he could quote both the two because we cannot… statements, he was going to help the nation to understand what these two people from different parties are saying MR SPEAKER: Order! Order Honourable Molao! about this Bill. Mr Speaker, maybe it could be helpful Order! if he can quote the two people side by side. Thank you. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)…

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, continue, there MR SPEAKER: No, I did not say that. Ten minutes, is no procedure. if that is their agreement, it does not concern me. This MR MOLAO: This is what we deal with Mr Speaker. is the COVID time, please let us adjourn for lunch and What I want to emphasise is that I share the same then we should come back to the House at 2 p.m. Let us sentiments with Mr Maswabi, if we are saying we are adjourn. voted to Parliament or office on our personal strength, we PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED AT 1:00 P.M. FOR could not be contesting under different political parties. APPROXIMATELY 1 HOUR We could be contesting as independent candidates and we would be voted because we are saying that we have PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:00 P.M. utmost strength which is more powerful that contesting MR SPEAKER (MR SKELEMANI): Let us resume under a political party. We could be independent our business of today with questions. candidates without any concerns.

What I am saying is that voters should be given a chance. QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER As I have been voted at Shashe West with the BDP LIMID PROGRAMME IN NORTH EAST ballot which I believe in, if it happens that I do not want to be a part of BDP anymore, I should go back to Shashe MR S. N. MOABI (TATI WEST): asked the Minister West and tell Shashe West voters that, “I am here, I no of Agricultural Development and Food Security what longer support the organisation that I contested under measures are in place to assist people in the North East when you voted for me, can you please release me so District who cannot fully utilise Livestock Management that I can defect to another party or as an independent and Infrastructure Development (LIMID) Programme candidate” There will be a re-run of elections and if due to shortage of land. they support me they will vote for me. If they do not support me, they will allow me to go where I want to go Later Date. but not defecting with their seat or vote. LEATHER PARK PROJECT HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. MR M. R. REATILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): MR MOLAO: This is what this Bill is requesting. So asked the Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry when we complain that we are going to be caged, this to update this Honourable House on the leather park Bill is not saying that you cannot defect, you can defect, project and how far the ministry is on its development. but create a vacancy so that there can be a re-run of elections. This Bill does not continue to say when you ASSISTANT MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, defect, you are going to be blacklisted from contesting TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MR MOLEBATSI): again mid-term. No. Tshere, you are still going to Thank you Mr Speaker. Good afternoon Honourable contest for elections at Mahalapye West under your Members. new party and voters will vote for you if at that time they believe in you as an individual and not the UDC. Mr Speaker, in 2015, Government approved So, do not be scared that you will be blacklisted from implementation of the Leather Industry Park at contesting for elections again. Lobatse. Following this, preparatory work ensued which involved setting up the Special Purpose Vehicle HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. called the Leather Industry Park Pty Ltd in 2016. The

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Environmental Impact Assessment report was approved or you also want to cancel it like the SPEDU tender? in 2017, detailed designs and drawings of the project were approved in 2018 and building permit was also MR MOLEBATSI: Mr Speaker, I ask that he repeats issued in 2018. the question because I did not hear him.

Initially, the business model for the Park was for MR REATILE: Mr Speaker, he is saying he did not Government to partner with a Technical Partner and hear me because I have my mask on. I do not know what contribute 50 per cent equity each. After unsuccessful to do because it is procedure. Honourable Minister, you identification of the technical partner, in December are saying you are going to award a tender in January 2019, Government took a decision to review the 2021 but according to our system in Botswana, if a business model and funding model of the Leather tender has been closed, it has to be awarded within 90 Industry Park. The revised business model entailed days. Since 90 days has elapsed, why are you saying Government providing basic infrastructure which you are going to award this one in January 2021? Which covers development of the Common Effluent Treatment law will you be using or you want to cancel it like you Plant, Secure Landfill Facility, administration block, did with the SPEDU tender in Selebi Phikwe? Can you basic infrastructure and one fully equipped tannery for not hear me even now? commissioning the infrastructure and technologies; MR MOLEBATSI: Thank you Mr Speaker. Now while the Private Sector finances other infrastructure I hear him. What I was saying is, the tender has been components such as tannery buildings, factories and evaluated. This means shortlisting has been done. warehouses to operationalise the Park. Following Maybe they are waiting for the next step which is to approval of the revised business model and funding verify if what was done at adjudication level was done model, preparatory work commenced which entailed appropriately. Like you said, this is to try to avoid the updating the bills of quantities and preparing tendering example that you used of SPEDU in Selebi Phikwe to documents and publishing them. The process was also ensure that this time around due processes are followed. affected by the Covid-19 pandemic. Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, the tender for construction of the bulk GENETICALLY MODIFIED FOOD infrastructure has been evaluated and is currently being adjudicated and is expected to be awarded in January MR O. REGOENG (MOLEPOLOLE NORTH): 2021. Construction is anticipated to commence before Asked the Minister of Agricultural Development and the end of the 2020/21 financial year and is planned to be Food Security to state: completed in 18 months. The remaining infrastructure will be developed as soon as basic infrastructure has (i) if the ministry is amenable to allowing interested been completed. Batswana to venture into unconventional production of genetically modified food; and Mr Speaker, the Ministry has also been engaging with relevant authorities, both public institutions and (ii) if he can confirm or deny the presence of communities, to put in place enabling facilities such genetically modified products/food in local stores. as livestock improvement strategies, rehabilitation of Later Date. slaughter facilities and establishment of hide collection centres, skills development and recruitment of tannery INCOMPLETE STAFF HOUSES AT OKAVANGO operators, to facilitate efficient operation of the Park. I JUNIOR SECONDARY SCHOOL thank you Mr Speaker. MR K. C. HIKUAMA (NGAMI): Asked the Minister MR REATILE: Supplementary. Thank you Mr of Basic Education if he is aware of the incomplete Speaker. Mr Speaker, maybe the Honourable Minister and/or abandoned staff houses at Okavango Junior can assist in answering this short question as adequately Secondary School; and if so, to state: as possible. When you are saying the tender is going to (i) which construction company was awarded the be awarded in January 2021, did you not invite people tender to build those staff houses; to tender before? You have already closed but a tender runs for 90 days and then the award. Now when you say (ii) what were the main reasons for abandonment of January 2021, which law will you be using Honourable construction; and

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(iii) what the ministry is doing to ensure the project is MS MAKWINJA: Thank you Mr Speaker. completed. Unfortunately, I do not have the name of that company Honourable Hikuama. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MS MAKWINJA): Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr STATE OF AT SETTLEMENTS IN Speaker, I am aware of the abandoned works at KGALAGADI NORTH Okavango Junior Secondary School. The works were awarded to BB1212 Investment Pty Ltd. The company MS MONNAKGOTLA (KGALAGADI NORTH): abandoned the works due to its poor work performance. Asked the Minister of Transport and Communications My ministry has engaged another contractor to complete if he is aware that Kgalagadi North residents have been the works which will commence in January 2021. I complaining about roads at settlements through their thank you Mr Speaker. different Members of Parliament and if so:

MR HIKUAMA: Supplementary. Thank you Minister. (i) will the Minister consider attending to the terrible Can you tell us the name of the company which is state of these roads as a matter of urgency; going to continue this project, the one that this tender (ii) to state if he would gravel the Hukuntsi-Ukhwi is awarded to? via Zutshwa and Hukuntsi-Hunhukwe via Lehututu road; and whether he is aware that these MS MAKWINJA: Thank you. I did not get the name roads have been gradually getting worse. of the contractor because it was not in the question Mr Speaker. Thank you. MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS (MR SEGOKGO): Mr MR MOATLHODI: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker, the general public and local leadership in the Speaker; good afternoon Sir. Honourable Minister of Kgalagadi North District have on several occasions Education, when you say that the company abandoned alerted my ministry on what they term as unsatisfactory the works due to its poor work ethic, was that person road conditions in the area. The main contention is the assessed before being awarded this very important condition of gravel and earth roads, including those tender? leading to settlement areas.

MS MAKWINJA: Thank you Mr Speaker. I believe In addressing these concerns, I must point out the Honourable is aware that we have procedures or following: systems in place for the tendering process which are followed before awarding a tender and they are to those • That my ministry has a responsibility of a network who awarded tenders based on what their applications of 1 043 kilometres (km) in the Kgalagadi North, of say. This means, they felt that they qualified to do this which 248km is paved roads and 795km is unpaved project at that time Honourable. Thank you. roads;

MR HIKUAMA: Supplementary Mr Speaker. • Lack of suitable, quality road construction material and limited resources has put pressure on my MR SPEAKER: Honourable Hikuama, last ministry to ensure the roads (especially gravel and supplementary. earth roads) are in good condition; MR HIKUAMA: Thank you Mr Speaker. I am not • That prioritisation of such roads is primary as happy about the response from the Minister. She Government wants to ensure that its services are mentioned that they have already awarded this tender enjoyed by all. to a certain tender and it is commencing in January, but she does not know their name. Do you think it is (i) Having said this Mr Speaker, my ministry grades possible for people to believe that you awarded a tender these roads once every quarter. All roads in the to a company that you do not know? Or are you simply Kgalagadi North were therefore last graded from refusing to give us their name? Kindly give us the name the 22nd July 2020 to the 23rd September 2020 using of this company so we can rest assured knowing that outsourced contractors and Roads Department in- something was done. house teams.

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(ii) The road from Hukuntsi to Ukhwi via Zutshwa is MR SEGOKGO: Thank you Honourable Member. You about 176km long and out of 176km, 161km has were asking where the gravel material is sourced from. been graveled. Out of the remaining 15km, 8.6km I do not know which one you are referring to exactly. I will be gravelled through the ongoing 2020/2021 do not have information here which can confirm exactly project from Ncaang to Ukhwi. where we source the material but what I can assure you is that it is true that we are having difficulties sourcing The Hukuntsi-Hunhukwe via Lehututu is 77km long, material for road construction at Kgalagadi but we will which Hukuntsi-Lehututu (10km) is tarred and has try Honourable. We need a certain gravel quality to be recently been rehabilitated. Lehututu-Hunhukwe (67km) able to work on these roads and we are in the process of comprises of 22km graveled section and 45km earth sourcing them. I can give you other examples of projects sections. Funds permitting, my ministry will consider we were able to lay aggregate stones, kilometres (km) gravelling some of the road sections with heavy sand in which are close to 900. It is difficult to source this the 2021/2022 financial year. material when constructing these roads.

(iii) Some but not all sections of gravel roads in the I heard you talking about Hukuntsi/Hunhukwe road Kgalagadi North are gradually worsening despite if I heard you clearly and I tried to update you on its being periodically graveled. This is due to the current condition. This is the response I believe you disintegration of the layers of gravel, as well as should give to those at the constituency which was the to other factors such as changing traffic patterns, whole intention anyway, although I will visit them and lack of good quality road construction material give them an update on the road progress. Thank you and climate change. The most catastrophic effects Honourable Member. of extreme weather events may lead to increased SHOSHONG SENIOR SECONDARY SCHOOL rates of deterioration in the area. DORMITORY

Further to that, the lack of or the unavailability of clean MR A. LESASO (SHOSHONG): asked the Minister water for construction of these gravel roads result in the of Basic Education to state: use of saline water. Salinity in the gravel layers attracts animals (both wild and domestic) that take to licking/ (i) the boarding facilities standards and student: dormitory ratio; and biting the road resulting in development of potholes. (ii) what is the student: dormitory ratio at Shoshong Lastly Mr Speaker, I want to reiterate that despite these Senior Secondary School and if that is in line with challenges, the conditions of gravel roads in Kgalagadi the national standard. North is fair to good with pockets of bad spots especially after the rains. I thank you Mr Speaker. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MS MAKWINJA): Thank you Mr Speaker. MS MONNAKGOTLA: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. The Minister mentioned that they do not (i) My ministry builds dormitories of different have materials in Kgalagadi, so I am wondering since designs in different schools, and therefore, they tarred Matsheng roads, where did they get the does not have a standard ratio for a dormitory. material from because I believe they can still use it at the However, when we design dormitories, the size of settlements Minister? Lehututu–Hunhukwe is sandy and the rooms determines the number of boarders who for this reason, our cars are damaged Minister, expecting can comfortably be accommodated therein. mothers also give birth while still on the way. We do (ii) Shoshong Senior Secondary School has 128 not have a road Minister. I become afraid whenever I go to the Kgotla because I no longer know what to say dormitories for both boys and girls, with a total to those women. What do you want me to say to those enrolment of 560 boarding students. This gives a people when I get to the Kgotla? Additionally, since you ratio of 4:3 per dormitory. Currently, two blocks say they are being gravelled, how many times are you of 32 rooms in the boys’ hostels have not been going to keep gravelling Zutshwa–Hukuntsi road since occupied as they were undergoing renovations there is salt and they could be doing business? Thank which is now complete. The boys then shared the you. available facilities at seven per room, which still

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allowed for adherence to the social distancing (iii) how much Government has paid in respect of protocol as espoused in the Ministry of Health damages for wrongful prosecution; and and Wellness in the fight against the COVID-19 scotch. I thank you. (iv) if the Minister is satisfied with the performance of the DPP and if not, what specific actions are being MR LESASO: Supplementary. Mr Speaker, I wish we taken to remedy the situation. could give you evidence when we ask such questions because the Minister knows very well that she is not Later Date. being honest in her response. I was deliberately asking FUNDS FROM TOURISM OPERATORS the questions I asked throughout this week; standards, health and safety and environment, maintenance MR D. SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): asked standards of schools. I would like to ask the Minister the Minister of Environment, Natural Resources if she is aware that students are poorly accommodated Conservation and Tourism if her ministry is in receipt throughout the country in all schools? Is she aware that of funds from tourism operators within concession areas students who are accommodated by the Government, allocated to Community Trusts; and if so, to state: the classrooms and dormitories are in poor conditions? (i) how much is held for each Community Trust; All her responses throughout this week as I was building this case are not right. Will she listen to the advices I am (ii) when such funds were received; and giving to her through these questions so that action can be taken in Botswana schools? (iii) why the funds have not been remitted to the Community Trusts. MS MAKWINJA: Thank you Mr Speaker. I recall that when we visited and saw the condition of dormitories Later Date. with Honourable Lesaso and other Members of MR GREEFF: Question 4 for Honourable Brooks. Parliament, no one can dispute that the condition is bad and slowly but surely we try to give the Head teachers GRADERS AT KGALAGADI SOUTH whatever little amount we might have so that they CONSTITUENCY repair. I know the condition at Shoshong, I witnessed it including those at other schools. I would therefore MR J. S. BROOKS (KGALAGADI SOUTH): asked like to inform you Honourable Lesaso and other the Minister of Transport and Communications to state: Honourable Members that you will find some schools (i) how many graders had been allocated to the with broken windows because students broke them, the Kgalagadi South Constituency for the past six torn mattresses are also their doing so I am not disputing years; that schools are in poor conditions but help us to talk to parents so that students can stop vandalizing schools. (ii) how many have broken down; and Honourable Lesaso, this issue is also concerning us at the Ministry of Basic Education. Thank you. (iii) the ministry’s future plans regarding these machines. DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is not here. MR T. LETSHOLO (KANYE NORTH): asked the Minister of Defence, Justice and Security to apprise MR SPEAKER: Number 12. Hang on. this Honourable House on the financial impact of cases …Silence… that the Department of Public Prosecutions (DPP) has handled and lost over the last five years at both the MR SPEAKER: What happened to Number 4? Courts of Law and Arbitration in particular: HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)…

(i) how much Government has had to pay out as a MR SPEAKER: Number 4 is for Honourable Brooks. result of being sued over lost cases at the courts; HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… (ii) how much Government has had to pay out as a result of lost cases at Arbitration; MR SPEAKER: Is the Minister not there?

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HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Good afternoon Mr MR SPEAKER: The Minister is here. That is why I Speaker. called Number 4. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)... HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… MR MMUSI: …(Laughter!)… what are you saying to MR SPEAKER: Okay, it is right at the back. Sorry. me?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: For Question Number 4 (i) The Deputy Sherrifs’ tariffs are provided for under it seems like the Minister is not here. Order 72 of the rules of the High Court. In terms MR SPEAKER: Did he go out? of Order 72 Rule 2; where there is more than one way of doing any particular act, the Deputy Sheriff HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… shall adopt the least expensive way.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Molale, I think you (ii) Where there are complaints or disputes of should get your Whip to make sure that the Ministers escalated or exorbitant costs, the Register and are in to answer questions. Master is empowered to mediate and take action. Order 72 of the Rules of the High Court provides MR KEORAPETSE: Question 5 for Honourable the schedule of tariffs that sets out what is tangible, Mokwaledi Ignitious Moswaane. including the rules applicable for transport LIMID BACKLOG charges, which are similar to those applicable to persons employed in the public service. The same MR M. I. MOSWAANE (FRANCISTOWN WEST): principle applies to the cost of meals. asked the Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security if he is aware of the Livestock (iii) Mr Speaker, I do acknowledge that due to the Management and Infrastructure Development (LIMID) passage of time, the fees are outdated and need to be reviewed, and to that end, I confirm that backlog; and if so, to state what he is planning to do. proposals have been submitted to the Chief Justice HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… for consideration. Order 72 Rule 3 of the High Court provides that where there is a complaint MR SPEAKER: They are not here. That is on your or dispute as to the validity or amount of charges shoulders Honourable Molale. or fees, the Master is empowered to mediate and to determine fees as he may deem reasonable or MR TSHERE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Question necessary. Members of the public are therefore Number 8. encouraged to report any dubious charges made against them. While there is no provision in the EXTRAORDINARY FEES BY DEPUTY High Court rules for fuel charges, they are catered SHERIFFS for under the travelling allowance provided for in the rules. MR O. RAMOGAPI (PALAPYE): asked the Minister of Defence, Justice and Security to state: I thank you Mr Speaker.

(i) if he is aware of the exorbitant fees that are charged MR KEORAPETSE: Supplementary. Honourable by Deputy Sheriffs to the extent that the charges Minister, thank you. Do you realise that the way Deputy are almost equal to charges by lawyers; Sheriffs are acting, they now have more powers than the Sheriff? So I am asking if there is anything you are (ii) why the Registrar of the High Court cannot provide doing to ensure that Deputy Sheriffs act accordingly? a schedule of their fees including food, transport, Many people have lost their belongings because of accommodation and collection percentage; and Deputy Sheriffs’ corruption. Is there anything that the Sheriff is doing as we speak? (iii) if he is also aware that some Deputy Sheriffs charge clients as well as debtors for deposit for MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Speaker. I agree with you fuel charges, and that they later do not reimburse Honourable Member, these issues are reaching us, even the clients. last week we were dealing with some of them and we

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requested the Master to investigate them, follow them (ii) Mr Speaker, during the construction phase of and ensure that things are rectified. When people have the Serowe Water Works Project, residents were complaints they bring them to us at the ministry, as you encouraged to pay a connection fee of P1000 to know that we have a Department of Justice that is led by the then Department of Water Affairs in Serowe the Permanent Secretary, when there are issues, we take for them to be connected to the scheme and they them to the Master so that he can try to rectify them and duly paid. Unfortunately, 598 of those who paid come with a solution. Thank you Mr Speaker. could not be connected due to some technicalities such as plots situated at a lower level than the MR TSHERE: Supplementary. Thank you very connection point which resulted in no gravitational much Honourable Speaker and thank you very much flow because of the slope. Honourable Keorapetse for explaining these terms to us. These lawyers have a Law Society which governs them, (iii) Mr Speaker, in October 2017, the ministry set up a team to assess and recommend corrective measures as a biomedical engineer, there is Botswana Health countrywide as the challenge did not only affect Professions Council, who governs the Sheriffs where Serowe. The team recommended that an estimated you can lodge a complaint? I hear you that the Master amount of P600 million will be needed to correct can intercede. Thank you. the status quo and connect the remaining 598 MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Speaker, Honourable residents into the scheme. It was the result of the Member, as I have explained that this law is outdated findings that compelled the ministry to prioritise but right now we are trying to update it to recent times the stated connection, but could not succeed due to so that they can have someone who governs them. Right financial limitation. Efforts were made to include now they are still under the Master, but we are trying the estimate during Mid-Term Review of NDP to make sure that we fix everything. I thank you Mr 11 but were unsuccessful as priority was given to Speaker. ongoing projects.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mathoothe for The Government therefore does not have any intention Honourable Lesedi! to refund, but will rather pitch the request again together with other competing proposals for inclusion into NDP CONNECTION TO SEWAGE LINES 12. I thank you Mr Speaker.

MR L. LESEDI (SEROWE SOUTH): asked the MR MATHOOTHE: Supplementary. Let me say... Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation (Interruptions)...so these people have long contributed Services: money, it has been a while, and maybe if they deposited it in a bank, they could have made a lot of interests. He (i) if he is aware that some people who paid the then should look at this point, that can they not consider at Water Affairs Department in Serowe to connect to the end of the day to maybe refund those people? sewage lines never received the service they paid for or reimbursement; and MR MZWINILA: Thank you Mr Speaker. I have answered, I said as a ministry, we provided an amount (ii) to state when Government intends to refund all of P278 million in regards to this plan, but unfortunately those who were not connected to the sewage lines it was not enough. We ran short of P600 million, but that but had paid. does not mean we have stopped this development. That means that we cannot refund them, because refunding ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LAND them will mean that it is another plan to now stop the MANAGEMENT, WATER AND SANITATION project. Thank you. SERVICES (MR MZWINILA): Mr Speaker, this question was answered before in March of 2019 in First Reading which I stated that; PRESENTATION OF GOVERNMENT (i) I am aware that some people paid connection fees BILLS and were not connected to the sewerage scheme due to technical challenges in relation to ground The following Bills were presented and read a first elevations. time.

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LOCAL GOVERNMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL, show that parties bring the bulk of the votes, that is why 2020 (NO. 24 OF 2020) we contest under party tickets and then the numbers are augmented by the ones we call swing voters. (Assistant Minister of Local Government and Rural Development) Mr Speaker, this Bill is good; it is good for democracy and the stability of a country. I believe even the voters Second Reading - Later Date. will love it. If the voters do not like it, in 2021 they will SEX OFFENDERS REGISTRY BILL tell us that they do not like it. I thank you Mr Speaker. (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2020 (NO. 22 OF 2020) ASSISTANT MINISTER OF TERTIARY (Minister of Defence, Justice and Security) EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY (MR SHAMUKUNI): I thank you Second Reading – Later Date. Mr Speaker. I rise to support this Bill as it was presented to us by Honourable Morwaeng. My thoughts and CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) BILL, sentiments about this Bill are not different from those 2020 (NO. 14 OF 2020) held by the robust leaders from the opposition, like Dr Second Reading Kenneth Koma, Maitshwarelo Dabutha and Paul Rantao who stood to support this Bill as it was presented on the (Resumed Debate) 7th of August 1998. If there is doubt Mr Speaker, please allow me to quote the two of them… MR SPEAKER: Order! Order, Honourable Members. The debate on this Bill is resuming. When the House MR SPEAKER: Please do. adjourned for lunch and COVID-19 break, Honourable Molao for Shashe West was on the floor and was left MR SHAMUKUNI: I quote Dr Koma, “Mr Speaker, with 10 minutes and 39 seconds. I stand to support the Motion in principle. Because of the principle, I maintain we should all support.” If there MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR is doubt about the principle that Dr Koma was talking MOLAO): I thank you Mr Speaker. It is just to about, allow me once more to quote the principle as he summarise that on the 6th of November 2020 and on was expounding on it. the 8th of November 2020, I held two meetings with the leadership in my constituency; Dikgosi, Councillors, MR SPEAKER: Please do. Village Development Committees (VDCs) and VET MR SHAMUKUNI: “Mr Speaker, Members of committees. I gave them an update about this Bill and Parliament (MPs) and Councillors are elected for a other things. The leadership embraced this Bill saying definite purpose and I believe this purpose is to advance they believe it will give people the power to decide, if a and popularise the policies of the party that brings person changes the party colours…or if they support you them to Parliament or Council.” It is very clear Mr as an individual they will be the ones sending you back Speaker, what the take of the then leader of opposition, to Parliament or not. That is why when I informed them together with those he was with back then was. I do about it, they said they supported it. I also believe what is not know what is confusing the current crop because as being said here, we are not having our rights taken away we are debating the Bill today, the aim is to entrench from us as Members of Parliament and Councillors. democracy; augmenting the voices of the voters so Actually, our electorates are being empowered to be that every decision that the Honourable Member of the ones who decide whether they take you back to Parliament would take regarding changing parties, the Parliament, Council or they are parting ways with you voters should be involved. We should go back to our and sending another candidate to represent them. electorates and talk to them. They are the ones who can give us a green light to say, “We are going with you” or I would like to say although sometimes people vote “we are not going with you.” It is very clear; this Bill is for individuals, research has found out that the bulk of trying to augment the voices of the voters. the votes emanate from traditional party voters. Swing voters just add to party voters. If people voted for I do not know why people are so scared Mr Speaker. If individuals, we would not bother to affiliate to parties. we are confident, because some are saying they came We could be contesting as independent candidates. To here because people were voting for them as individuals,

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the likes of Honourable Hikuama, then this Bill should Secondly, why did you not use the fitting example in not scare you. You have to support it because you would which Bagalatia Arone was punished after boasting be sure that when you go back to the constituency, if that he is a Minister with the BCP seat? Why are you you came here because you were elected because you not citing it as a good example which is close to you are Hikuama, they would vote for you again. You should since you were working with him? not have a problem with that, Honourable Hikuama. MR SHAMUKUNI: Mr Speaker, I am the only one who can choose the example that is close to my MR TSHERE: On a point of clarification. Thank you feelings, so I am sticking to the one that I gave, it is Honourable Minister for yielding. As you gravitate the one that is close to me. The example that you left towards concluding, in your observation, if this Bill Botswana National Front (BNF) referring to your were to pass, roughly how many elections can we hold party as megobagoba, only to have one Member of in six months? How often are we going to have elections Parliament, after the voters humbled you, Mr Speaker in order to replace people who might have crossed the that is what I was pointing out. floor? Thank you. Mr Speaker, I believe that there has been a lot of MR SHAMUKUNI: Obviously Mr Speaker, I cannot consultation over the past years, recently the Minister tell how many elections we can hold. Our interest in tabled this Bill in Parliament and I believe that once it this Bill is that when you decide to shift to a different was tabled, our responsibility as Members of Parliament party, you should go back to the voters; they have to was to start consulting people about it. I did that at my sanction your decision. This is what the Bill is saying. Constituency, I consulted people who the COVID-19 The decision to leave the party you are in to go to a protocols allowed me to consult. I managed to consult different one, the Bill as thought out, shows that we do them at the Kgotla meetings which I attended with the not stop you from taking that decision as a Member of leadership since I invited them. Most of them if not all Parliament. That will be your right. What we wish to entrench is that we want to augment the voices of the of them, pointed out that this Bill is relevant because voters. it would be a disgrace if I can defect from BDP after they voted for me with so much love, it would be This issue of being considerate of what the voters chose, shameful if they can hear that I defected from Botswana we should not take it lightly. We should take it seriously Democratic Party (BDP) to Honourable Saleshando’s because a decision to leave a party under which you party or Mr Butale’s party without consulting them. I were elected, going to a different one, is a serious one am just citing this as an example by the way. The right hence those who voted for you have to air their views. thing to do is that if I have taken a decision that I am The Honourable Members from the Botswana Congress defecting to another party, I should leave the position or Party (BCP) who are at the Umbrella for Democratic the seat behind and go and ask for a new mandate from Change (UDC) Mr Speaker, I believe they can allude them. I believe that this is a very straight forward issue to this better. In 1998, when they defected from the Mr Speaker and I do not know what the Honourable Botswana National Front (BNF) and formed a party Members on the other side… with 11 Members of Parliament, forming the BCP and calling themselves “mogobagoba” (meaning: an MR MOATLHODI: On a point of clarification. Thank abnormal load truck) they left with 100 Councillors; you Mr Speaker. Thank you Assistant Minister who is also they believed they were a big party, a mogobagoba, a Member of Parliament (MP) for my favourite tourist but what happened in the following elections? Only attraction constituency, Chobe. In our Setswana culture, one Member of Parliament came to Parliament. This we know that decisions are taken by the community at shows that when voters are angry, they use that right to the Kgotla meetings, not Dikgosi. Since COVID does punish you. In 2014, only three members of Botswana not allow us and Dikgosi to call community gatherings, Congress Party (BCP) came to Parliament… how do you reconcile the decision of Magosi without the community? MR HIKUAMA: On a point of clarification. Thank you Honourable, thank you for yielding. I agree with you MR SHAMUKUNI: Mr Speaker, the way I that when voters are angry, they do the right thing. So comprehended, the decision taken by Magosi, it does not why are we making a law for something that is already differ that much with the decision that has been taken by self-regulatory? the communities that I consulted at my Constituency.

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There is convergence of ideas regarding this Bill as HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… presented Mr Speaker. I will conclude by saying that this Bill is significant, it is straight forward and I wish MR LUCAS: Some of the Members who are not happy that the Honourable Members on the other side of the are those who are representing Constituencies which isle could support it. seem to be abandoned.

I do not believe that Honourable Motsamai Motsamai HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… can oppose this Bill because he heard the statement MR LUCAS: You can see that these ones… I do not that was made by his former leader Dr Kenneth Koma want to mention their names because it would get me regarding this issue. So, he is not supposed to oppose in trouble. You can see that these ones are not happy, the statement that was made by Dr Kenneth Koma. May but because BDP has noticed that most of them are not his soul rest in peace. Thank you Mr Speaker. happy, it is now proposing to lock them inside the party MR LUCAS (BOBONONG): Thank you Mr Speaker. I so that they do not defect. thought that I should also rise and air my view regarding HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… this Bill. It is evident that according to Honourable Morwaeng’s presentation, there was a Motion which HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of was tabled by Ms Kokorwe in1998. When I talk about clarification. Ms Kokorwe, relating her to Honourable Morwaeng, they have a beautiful history which you understand MR LUCAS: They are there and I can list about five or very well. After passing this Motion in 1998, we took six Constituencies of Members of Parliament who are 22 years to implement it. This means that something is not happy. noticeable here, Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) is very slow when it comes to implementation, if a Motion I hear one of them saying that I should mention them can be passed in 1998 and be implemented in 2020. This because he is trying to ingratiate himself to people clearly shows laziness on their side. so that they may think he is fine. I know you, we live together. If people can remain unbothered for a long time only for them to bring this Bill under urgency, then it shows HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… dishonesty, it means that something is up. It means that they have noticed something which they are not saying MR LUCAS: The reason why you are coming with out loud and we are going to point out what we suspect this type of Motion in a rush is because you have no it might be. This proposal can compel one to strongly intentions of fulfilling the promises you made to suspect that this current Botswana Democratic Party Batswana. (BDP) is not fit, it is insecure and it lacks confidence. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible) … This Government is not stable, they lack confidence. They suspect that something risky might happen. So, I MR LUCAS: Yes! They might be hiding that they can see that they are trying to protect their party through will not be able to fulfil their promises to Batswana. this Bill so that when that happens, people would be Therefore, that is going to infuriate people and other locked inside BDP and they will not be able to move. Honourable Members who are not yet infuriated.

It is also evident and questionable that, if people can HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. wait 22 years and then come rushing with this Bill, MR LUCAS: Yes Honourable Member. It is like you clearly Honourable Morwaeng and his Government are… might have realised that many Members of Parliament (MPs) on their side of the isle are not happy. I suspect MS MONNAKGOTLA: Clarification. Thank you that most of them are not happy and they notice this too, Honourable Member for Bobonong. We hear you when they are aware of it and that is why they want to lock you say there are some who are disgruntled and you are them inside the party so that they can stay there even if saying the party is not doing some things properly. The they are not happy. When we are here as Members of Manifesto says, this will be a consultative party. We Parliament, we live together and it is easy to tell when want you to consult voters. Do you not see the need of some people are not happy, they have long faces and consulting your voters when you defect from one party you can easily tell that they are not happy. to another? Thank you.

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MR LUCAS: Thank you. I yielded for you because we Review after all. We must be mindful of these things. If are in the same committee. it is there, why not tackle it at the same time with other laws such as strengthening Parliament? Honourable HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further clarification. Morwaeng you are making us suspect that there is MR LUCAS: Let me address it Honourable Member. something that you are hiding. If it is there, I suspect that you are going to raise issues that Batswana do not want HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible)… which might even offend other Honourable Members.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: It does not matter. HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)…

MR LUCAS: I hear you Honourable Monnakgotla. I MR LUCAS: That side. I highly suspect because if this know that you are not happy about something. Maybe Constitutional Review is coming, we could be tackling you loved BDP but there is something that you are not these issues holistically including tribal equality and happy about concerning the settlements. You always say elections. However you are rushing to tackle this one settlements are not prioritised at all and that makes you which makes us suspect that something is up. unhappy. If you are happy, you can say that. Moving on, we can point out that this is an indication that you have MR BOKO: Clarification. Good afternoon Mr Speaker. no intentions of delivering your promises. I would be Thank you Honourable Member. Honourable Member, surprised if the Government of His Excellency Masisi I want to refer to Honourable Monnakgotla’s question would deliver on the promises made to Batswana. she raised earlier that we should consult those that Honourable Members, you know that he would not brought us to Parliament if you make a decision to cross. deliver and therefore he needs to lock them in. He Explain it by taking a cue from what she is saying that knows that he is not going to allocate Batswana land. as a country, have we taken a step to go and consult That can offend other Honourable Members who are Batswana on the issue to amend the Constitution? serious. Anyway if you are not serious you will not get I am saying this from the angle that some of us have offended. learned Constitutional law from school, we appreciate and understand it much better. The Constitution is not HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… amended anyhow. You have to go through consultation and hear what Batswana are saying because it is not MR LUCAS: That can offend other Honourable made for the purpose of the 57 Members of Parliament Members who are serious and saying, we promised to (MPs) including the Specially Elected MPs. Batswana allocate people land and we should do that. That can must have a say because this is a document that speaks result in them thinking of crossing the floor. The aim to them now and speaks to the generation of the unborn. is to lock them in so that even when they realise that Explain if thorough consultation has been done by us? people are not allocated land, there are no roads at The only person who I know is not telling the truth the settlements but they would be locked in BDP. The is Honourable Healy who said there are 95 people at reason why people are rushing is because something is Takatokwane. I am wondering how he arrived at that up. It is an indication that some have been complaining conclusion. We know it is not true. Batswana have not about hospitals at Tsabong. They complain so bitterly. been consulted. Why are we rushing this? I wanted you Some in Ghanzi also have challenges which it looks like to address that one. Thank you. the Government will not manage to solve issues and that is why it is locking in those who are complaining a lot so MR LUCAS: Honourable Boko you are right because that they do not leave. This is very suspicious because what we heard is, Batswana had been consulted in 1998; after 22 years, we are making this law in a rush. There is 22 years ago. We hear that Batswana were consulted something that is not adding up that we must be aware then. It is available in Honourable Morwaeng’s report of. that Honourable Kokorwe came up with a Motion and Batswana were consulted 22 years ago in 1998. That is Why this rush on the eve of a promised Constitutional why when I started I said if it takes 22 years to implement Review? This is teaching us something. We have been a Motion, it means there is ineffectiveness. Currently, no talking a lot that Constitutional Review is coming. consultation was done. Even the Honourable Member Right now Honourable Morwaeng is saying it will come of Chobe you can hear that he is fumbling, there is no beginning of next year. Maybe there is no Constitutional consultation.

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HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Elucidation. denies people the opportunity to join a party of their choice; you know that they will claim that you were MR LUCAS: Honourable Members, allow me to voted because of your party affiliation but sometimes proceed since time is not on my side. What does this that party may lose focus. So you are expected to mean? This shows that something is up. People are not happy but you want to lock them in the party. What does continue to be a member in that kind of situation as if that mean? You will be having Honourable Members everything is fine. You must pay close attention to this that side thinking they are yours but the truth being that thing Honourable Members because we would be very they are not with you wholly. worried if a person is voted by a party and that party completely loses focus along the way, where they get HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible) … out of order and do not consider the opinions of people. A situation whereby you are not allowed to join other MR LUCAS: …(Laughter!)… This other one with a parties, that you will be here for at least four years. We deep voice, I know who he is. He is also not happy, he have to pay attention to these issues. It is possible for a is not with you fully. Now having people who are not party to encounter some challenges in some occasions. fully committed to you means a lot of things. It may worry you and there is nothing wrong with that. The Sometimes the problem may be the leader of a party; main problem is having a Member of Parliament who do you know how painful it is for a leader of a party is not happy about the party he or she is in for four to provoke you? They may just hate, undermine or be years, I do not think that Member will execute his or moody around you. They may also start to be oppressive her duty efficiently in Parliament. It is hard, it requires and abuse others if they have the powers which you are energy and not someone who is unhappy to be there. intending to give to them. That is why some who like tenders very much if they So, you must pay attention to these things because are not happy, you will hear that the said individual is at sometimes if you have an oppressive leader, it is better Mabutsane and Sorilatholo. He is unhappy about being to allow that member who is not in good terms with in Parliament and therefore prefers to go around with that leader to go. We know that some are naturally brown envelopes of tenders. Those who have never bootlickers while some are not, they are good people been involved in tenders will prefer window shopping who hate that. So, they are not going to be happy to be at Game than sitting here because he or she is unhappy. in a party where they are abused by their leader. He or she will not be able to represent the interests of the constituents because he or she is a member of a party MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL that makes him or her miserable. That is wrong. Others AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC will just be roaming around because they are not happy. ADMINISTRATION (MR MORWAENG): Point of Let me move on to… order. Mr Speaker, is it Parliamentary for Honourable to say that we have members who are naturally bootlickers HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. on this side? MR LUCAS: Honourable Monnakgotla, no, I yielded for you before, let me continue. When I yield for you, MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, Fidelis, Mmusi and others will be happy that you are I think that thing has been debated here, it has been wasting my time but we cannot operate like that. heard, so Honourable Morwaeng, you have heard about Let us therefore proceed to this issue which we have it, it is not a new thing. to pay attention to. I want to warn you, including you MR LUCAS: Thank you Honourable Morwaeng. No Honourable Morwaeng… one should be worried about the word “bootlicker”! it HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… is trending, the President also uses it, so why should Honourable Morwaeng be worried? MR LUCAS: No, I am not yielding for you, especially that you are the one who came up with this bitter law. Honourable Members, I oppose this Bill, let us deal with other issues in terms of Constitutional review like HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Honourable Boko was saying. Let us not single it out. MR LUCAS: Yes! Let me go through this section. We let us consult people concerning this issue and find out are very worried because you fail to recognise some what they will say about it, instead of concluding that things, so if you approve a law like this one which we consulted them 22 years ago. Let us give them a

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chance to raise their own opinions about it today, maybe Since we are an attentive Government, we started they are either going to support or oppose it. Why are working on the EVM with them; with members like you rushing? Honourable Keorapetse, Honourable Ndaba Gaolathe and Honourable Ngaka Ngaka. Unfortunately, they HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. turned against their own words when we brought it to MR LUCAS: We suspect that you might have evil Parliament. intentions concerning this law. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Change is inevitable. So, this is why I do not support this Bill and I believe MR MOLALE: …(Laughter!)… You can hear them it will be one of the issues that we are going to deal Mr Speaker, they are joking about it. They turned with when doing Constitutional review if at all we are against their own words. So right now we are talking going to do that like Honourable Morwaeng said. We no longer believe that because if at all it was going to about this law. Let me finish talking about the EVM. be reviewed in three months, why are you rushing to After that, they started claiming that we are going to approve it now? cheat against them if we use the EVM. Then Batswana requested the Government of President Masisi to stop Honourable Members, I thought to highlight that this the EVM so we can use our usual procedure and we Bill is irrelevant, it came at a wrong time when we are won. So right now we are talking about a Motion which heading towards Constitutional review. So let us wait for Constitutional review and we will deal with it together was discussed in 1998 and they are claiming that we with other issues. Thank you Honourable Members. are moving slow while they also claimed that we were rushing when dealing with the EVM. Right now we are MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND rushing because something fishy is going on. What is RURAL DEVELOPMENT (MR MOLALE): Thank happening? What is going on here? So right now we you Mr Speaker. I am standing to support the Bill by are discussing this law just like Honourable Molao, Honourable Morwaeng. It is one of the things which Honourable Lelatisitswe and Honourable Shamukuni we promised Batswana that we are going to do as mentioned, when Honourable Kokorwe tabled the Bill, soon as possible during campaigns. Maybe we have to remind those who are suspicious. We talked about there was a Law Reform Committee which travelled declaration of assets and other laws which we promised all over consulting people and there were opposition to bring to this Parliament, but they rejected them. It Members in that committee like Honourable Sidwell is clear that Batswana rejected it because they go with Gabatshwane, may his soul rest in peace. Including consensus which corresponds to what they promised. others like Honourable Kalake and Honourable Mamela So Honourable Lucas, we have a firm agenda this side but now their successors at the opposition disagree which was approved by Batswana, that is why we are with this Bill. It is like they are spitting on their leaders the Government of the day. That is the first point which because we can see that you say they were not saying you must know. anything, and like Honourable Shamukuni was quoting Dr Kenneth Koma, may his soul rest in peace as well, Secondly Mr Speaker, Batswana must understand that it is a clear indication that our leaders of Botswana we work with members of opposition in this House. Democratic Party and the Opposition were a team Whenever we try to do something as soon as possible, regarding this Motion. they will ask why we are rushing and say that something must be fishy. When we slow down, they also critisise HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. that. We no longer know what they expect us to do. For example; last time during the budget session, Honourable MR MOLALE: No! They were a team. So by so Mmolotsi stood up when I was presenting the budget doing, we are continuing the legacy of our predecessors for Ministry for Presidential Affairs, he said that the while some have changed, anyways since you say procedure of the election process is inappropriate. He people change but it is hypocrisy; spineless. You are a said that it was not good for us to spend many days person with no principle; the moment you talk like that waiting for election results, that countries like Namibia then there is no principle. You are jeering (boparo) as are better than us because they have Electronic Voting portrayed by Honourable Lucas. I request opposition Machines (EVMs). members…

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MR LUCAS: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank there is a consensus, nonetheless we saw that there is no you Mr Speaker. I realise that Honourable Molale is consensus in some parties. In the Botswana Democratic linking my name to jeering. If he is referring to me Party, we have never threw chairs at each other like at then he should withdraw because I am too old to be Palapye. We never set dogs on other members like we associated with that and you should also call him to saw happening at Bobonong, Honourable Lucas learnt order. Thank you. about rabies he was talking about there. That is why we discuss proper Government issues following the right MR SPEAKER: Honourable Molale, you heard what procedure. So we cannot listen to people who are just the Honourable said right? talking aimlessly, who cannot listen to the reason for MR MOLALE: I am listening Mr Speaker. The word amending. We said we are safeguarding the interests of jeer (parola), is just aimless talk, so what I am saying is voters. No one should floor cross with votes. Honourable Lucas was just talking aimlessly, there was HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… no content in his debate. MR MOLALE: We do not want that. So I conclude Mr MR LUCAS: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not Speaker… understand what he is saying but he should withdraw the word jeering (boparo) because my age does not allow to HONOURABLE MEMBER: Time up. be linked to that word. I think he has insulted me very much when he links me to the word jeering (boparo). MR MOLALE: Honourable Hikuama, listen, you Can he please withdraw that word? know nothing about caucus, everyone does what they want that side. This side we caucus and if we agreed MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Molale, I on something, we do not disparage it, it is procedure. am sure you are a Motswana, you understand that you I conclude here Mr Speaker; I support Honourable do not use some words when addressing adults. Do the Morwaeng on this Amendment. Thank you. needful. MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AND MR MOLALE: I withdraw the word jeering (boparo). COOPERATION (DR KWAPE): Thank you Mr Mr Speaker, let me move to the next point because Speaker. I also stand to support this Motion more so that there is no time. Yesterday one Member alluded that by- this Bill is difficult so if something is difficult even a election is expensive so we want to cheat. The person difficult cow is branded first. This is meant to address or people saying that are just looking at their own Honourable Lucas’s comment as to why we are so quick interests when they say it is expensive to campaign, to amend whereas there is an upcoming Constitution they forget that the voters also sacrifice a lot; waiting Review. This Bill also ensures that Parliament is not a in ques the whole afternoon and travelling from the skipping rope, you do not just skip when and wherever fields or cattleposts to come and vote. So after such huge sacrifice you suddenly abandon them; the Bill is you like. If you think there is rabies in one side, then prohibiting such. We are safeguarding the interest of the have that courage to consult the voters and inform them voter not the voted. that there is rabies so that you can ask them to give you a new responsibility to represent them properly. If it is HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. indeed true you are not representing the party, then have that courage and consult voters. MR MOLALE: I disagree with this view because expensive is relative, the main issue we have to Mr Speaker this issue has been discussed and it was consider is expenses spared by voters not the voted … discussed back in 1998 as it was mentioned. It was (interruptions)… discussed and agreed to in this House. There was a national referendum and the results were all positive. It HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… was discussed in the streets and as we speak Batswana MR MOLALE: The last point Mr Speaker, the issue are listening and are surprised that since this issue has that this Bill’s objective is to give control to the party so long been discussed, is there still someone who disagrees that it oppresses its members shows lack of knowledge with it. There is consensus in the technological world as of how democracy works and the steps taken to achieve Batswana are sending messages saying that they concur that. There is no party which can oppress its members, with it. There is no problem in a democracy that some

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people may not agree with it. Especially those who but before you do that, you have to understand them, came to this House as the Opposition and this title of so we are understanding our decisions so that we can opposition really suits them today, because they are just implement them. You used a very good comparison opposing everything. Honourable Member, because you are telling the truth that we are both researchers even though we differ a bit The other thing that I liked about this issue even though here and there, because I research more complex issues it is not refined at the moment, even my child who was than you … born this year, when I told him that we are going to talk about the issue that when someone has been voted by HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… aligning themselves to a political party, when things are not going well and he or she wants to leave the party, DR KWAPE: That is just how it is. he should not leave with the position he or she was MR LUCAS: Clarification. Thank you Mr Speaker, given by the party, he also agreed. When Honourable thank you Honourable Kwape. When you talk about the Members like Honourable Lucas suspect that something issue of literature review, you have to do it, but you also is being done, they are only doing so because the people need to do a research that corresponds to that era and who led them when they were on that side, the ones that is when you can get to conclusions. So it seems like who did not call themselves the opposition but called you reach your conclusions on the basis of the literature themselves advisors, since most of them passed away, review only. I think it seems to be out of order and it is they are turning in their graves, that they left this House not right. in this state. You are fortunate because this Government is a Government of inclusivity, and every time before DR KWAPE: When you finish the literature review a law is implemented it comes to this House first. This you get into the research. So this law has been taken to inclusivity is still there Mr Speaker, and at the moment Dikgosi, and they have embraced it. Batswana as a whole we are in this House to finish what we promised have embraced it. The good thing is that what Batswana Batswana that we will do. When you are voted, you have embraced, since it suits you as the Opposition, you make promises to Batswana, so those of us who are here oppose it and they can even see for themselves. ensure that we implement Batswanas’ wishes. MR BOKO: Clarification. Thank you Honourable In conclusion I want to say, as I said a few days back, Minister. I can clearly hear you when you say Dikgosi when you do a Constitutional review, you just do not agreed with the amendment of the Constitution. You may do that unprepared. You approach it like a plate of hot be telling the truth that they have been consulted, which porridge, you spread it and then you start eating it where is the right thing to do. You would recall very well that it has cooled down. This law when we look at it, has in the years 1965, 1966 when this Constitution which is been spread, it has cooled down, so we have to start in place now was implemented, Dikgosi were one of the eating it, like Batswana have agreed that there should people who were consulted and other elites and most not be any floor crossing in this House, people can do of Batswana were not consulted. Are you saying it is that somewhere else. a good thing that only the elites should have a role to play on the amendment of the Constitution? Secondly, DR GOBOTSWANG: Clarification. Thank you Mr are you of the view that just a mere 57 Members of Speaker, thank you Honourable Member. As a worthy Parliament, some of them who do not even understand researcher that I know, and we have almost the same what they are doing can be the only ones responsible for qualification, are you saying the reasons advanced 22 the amendment of the Constitution without consulting years ago can be used right now as if they are current? the entire populace? Those are the two questions, thank you. DR KWAPE: When you and I carry out a research…I will try to explain in English Mr Speaker because we DR KWAPE: Honourable Gobotswang was saying are getting into science. There is what we call literature that him and I are researchers. So when we addressed review or background, I think that you will agree with the issue of research, there are different methods of me that there is no scientific research you can do which doing research, there is what is called mixed methods, does not need that. So that is just an update to tell you quantitative and qualitative and they are all researches. where these things began and in the end when you are In the end, we make decisions based on them. So to compiling your research, you compile the findings, answer you, research has been done…

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MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND Earlier on, I talked about the issue of consultation. I hear HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR KGAFELA): Honourable Kgafela talking about certain provisions and Elucidation. Honourable Dr Kwape, there is a question I will tell you why he does not seem to fully appreciate from Honourable Boko, let him read the sections in the import of the said provisions. I will explain later on. the Constitution and look at Section 89 (3) (a) to (b). Mr Speaker, the amendment of the Constitution in this These sections state that there are some things in the context, our belief is that it has to get the legitimacy Constitution which need a survey from the public, from the populace; constituents, people who have put which are under Section 89 (3) (b). Those that are under us in Parliament. It should not just be a preserve of 57 Section 89 (3) (a), can be assessed by this Parliament Members of Parliament and Specially Elected Members only, and at least two-thirds of Members of Parliament of Parliament. That is not how it should be. have to be in favour of or against them. I wanted you to answer him that those sections are there sir. This one You will recall Mr Speaker that when the current we are addressing right now does not fall under Section Constitution came into effect from what we read, it was 89 (3) (b), which means that it does not need a survey just a few people who were involved in its drafting and of the public. in its coming into effect. You will recall that we had the likes of Honourable Matante who had to walk out DR KWAPE: I have studied sciences, Honourable because they were of the view that a proper consultation Kgafela has studied law, and I am thankful for your has not been done. That is what we are craving for. That comment which answers someone who studied law … is my message in relation to the Motion that had been put forward by Honourable Morwaeng to say except HONOURABLE MEMBER: It does not answer, those in Takatokwane; yesterday I saw on television that clarification. 95 per cent of them are saying it should be amended. DR KWAPE: So since the time we have set for That might be true, but I doubt. At times you just wake up in the morning and say 95 not knowing how you ourselves is coming to an end, I want to conclude by reached that number. saying Mr Speaker I support this Motion as it is good for Batswana. Thank you. A proper consultation Mr Speaker, has not been done. That is what we are craving for. We cannot hold on to MR BOKO (MAHALAPYE EAST): Mr Speaker, I the fact that 22 years back there was something which stand here this afternoon to humbly request Honourable was done and Batswana are saying this. We should Members that side, especially the youth to oppose consider the current situation as to what Batswana are the Motion that has been put before this House by saying about the issue of Constitutional... Honourable Morwaeng. MR HIKUAMA: Point of clarification. Thank you Mr HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Speaker. I thank you Honourable Member. According to you, do you think it is in order for a country that MR BOKO: I will explain why I am saying that wants to bring stability, that when we have issues in throughout my debate. Mr Speaker, you and I understand our parties or in the current situation we are; we have that we are dealing with a very sacred document here, the resorted to changing the Constitution in piecemeal to fit Constitution, which all the laws that are implemented in our temporary interests? For example, it has happened the country takes the legitimacy from. The Constitution in the history of the Botswana Democratic Party, it was is not a document like any other Act of Parliament which changed to make way for succession provision of the Members of Parliament can just take for granted, or play presidency. If those who were popular were not favoured with it the way they like. It is a very sacred document by the President, they changed the Constituiton. There and that is how it should be treated. It is a document that are many examples we can give. Well, if now they when you want to amend or do one or two things on it, no longer want Honourable Vice President Slumber you are not supposed to do that in a rush, you have to Tsogwane to be in the succession, should they remove take time and be sober when you do that. That is the a Clause and add the one which says “now we shall no understanding of how a Constitution should be treated, longer have succession because the one who is here now but what we see from the other side of the aisle is a is someone we do not like?” Do you think this is the rushed effort to amend the Constitution. culture we should use to run our country because right

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now that is the situation? Is this good for a democratic not want him in Parliament. Why is he here if we serve country and this Constitution because it states that it is a the interests of the people who have voted for us? I just sensitive document that should be respected? wanted us to see the hypocrisy of the highest order that exists… MR BOKO: Thank you Honourable Member. Like I stated earlier on, a document of this nature should not HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. just serve the interests of a select few, it should serve the interest of the nation, not a situation whereby we wake MR BOKO: No, they said they did not want you. We up in the morning and you realise that soon power will do not know why you are here. You do not even know be gone, then you come up with mechanisms of ensuring why you are here yourself… that you stay in power forever. That cannot be tolerated. MINISTER OF LAND MANAGEMENT, WATER That is why I am pleading with you that let us desist AND SANITATION SERVICES (MR MZWINILA): and not agree with the devilish Motion that has been put Point of order. I think the Honourable Member is before this Parliament by Honourable Morwaeng. misleading the House and the nation, we are here Mr Speaker, you will agree with me that instead of elected Members of Parliament by Parliament. We are focusing on development, the Botswana Democratic here elected by Parliament. Thank you. Party is focusing on how to perpetually remain in power. MR SPEAKER: That is constitutionally true. I hope That is what they want. You know this party is such a Honourable Boko knows that. curse to this country. They have realised that soon there will... MR BOKO: Thank you Mr Speaker, but my point has been noted. My point is very simple. If the argument HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... is that if people rejected you, you are not supposed to be seen in Parliament and people did not want him, not MR BOKO: I will not regret. Mr Speaker, what they at the primary elections, but at the general elections; have realised is that they do not enjoy much of support the people of Serowe stood their ground and said we as it has been in the past... do not want to see Honourable Autlwetse with our eyes and when they woke up, they found him in Parliament. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Even from their What is that? Members of Parliament. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure. MR BOKO: Even from other Members of Parliament. I do not want to name some Members of Parliament who HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. have told me that they want to jump ship and they know HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. that some Members of Parliament want to jump ship. That is why they came up with such a devilish Motion DR DOW: Point of procedure. Thank you Mr Speaker. to this Parliament. Mr Speaker, I think this House will be out of procedure if we are to allow this kind of debate of personal attacks, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of clarification. anger and has got no substance except to try to hurt MR BOKO: I will yield later on. Mr Speaker, yesterday another person. That is the only reason. People back I heard an argument while I was watching television. It at home are listening to hear whether you have valid reasons or you have just come to speak vile. That is the was said by one of the Members of Parliament, I cannot procedure. remember who, that “I have to go back to Batswana and inform them that I have now failed, hence I no It is a point of procedure Mr Speaker because the longer want to be aligned to that party.” We have other Umbrella for Democratic Change (UDC) on this very Members of Parliament whom Batswana had rejected. issue, only this week we were debating as to whether They cannot serve our interest and that of the country. or not it is part of their own position whether they want Just look at the hypocrisy at play here; Honourable the law of Specially Elected Member of Parliament Autlwetse is one of those Members of Parliament. (SEMP). The other one said they do not want it, the The people of Serowe said they did not want him in other one quoted their manifesto that they want it. Right Parliament. Honourable Mzwinila, people said they did now, we have no idea what they are saying. The point of

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procedure that I want to put to this House is that if we better understanding of the law from you and therefore, a allow for debates of personal attacks, this House will better explanation and a rendition that will not cloud the degenerate into chaos. If there is an issue, address it and minds of anybody. The legal position is simple, majority stop talking about other people. People outside wish that of the Honourable Members in this House were elected when you resume your seat… directly by Batswana. The Constitution, which is part of what you are debating now provides that those who HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... have been elected by Batswana will convene and elect DR DOW: Honourable Members, listen! Mr Speaker, Specially Elected Members of Parliament (SEMPs). protect me please. You yourself Honourable Boko, were part of that. You were part of that Electoral College as provided by the MR BOKO: Mr Speaker, she is debating, there is no Constitution. Whether you voted for or against is not procedure. She is wasting our time. the issue, but you were part of the Electoral College so DR DOW: Mr Speaker, please protect me. that the Specially Elected Members are constitutionally elected. The Constitution of this country provides that HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Inaudible)... those who have been elected by Batswana should come DR DOW: Please protect me Mr Speaker... here and elect Specially Elected Members, those of you who have been voted. You did that under the provision HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... of the Constitution. The Constitution does not state that you can only elect people who did not contest for DR DOW: Please protect me Mr Speaker. Please protect elections. The Constitution Honourable Boko, I said me Mr Speaker. Batswana wish to listen to someone probably I am going to be unfair to you, because you debating; they want to hear how their lives are going to and I know each other, I want you of all people, to be change. They are not foolish, if you are talking... quite clear. MR BOKO: Mr Speaker, the Honourable Member will You can disagree of course with the provision which have time to debate... allows this House to elect from among Batswana despite MR SPEAKER: I have not given you the floor the fact that somebody has been contesting and lost. You Honourable Boko. There was a point of order and we can object, perfectly legal. What you cannot do is then will remain in order. I do not care, we will remain to say that person is not here properly. That I will rule orderly. That is how this House is going to move. out of order because it is only the Constitution which guides us, there is no other document. If you disagree HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... with that provision, I will agree with you, disagree with MR SPEAKER: Who has ruled? Is it for you to rule? it, condemn it, it is your right, so that you can change it. However, admit that it provides so. Honourable Boko, HONOURABLE MEMBER: You can see there is no your time has been saved. You have your time. point of order. HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order Mr HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Is it for you to rule? MR SPEAKER: I have ruled. I am not allowing you to debate my order. Honourable Boko. HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is not. HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order Mr MR SPEAKER: So? You are a bystander until she Speaker. finishes. MR SPEAKER: I have ruled. There is no order. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order Mr MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members. Speaker. Honourable Boko, probably I am going to be unfair to you as I said before. You, Honourable Kgafela, MR SPEAKER: I refuse that. Honourable Boko. I have Honourable Mokgethi and Honourable Dow, I expect a made a ruling and I am not allowing…

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HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order Mr HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation Honourable Speaker. Boko. I was hoping you would recognise me, but I realise you have a problem with that. MR SPEAKER: I have refused to give you the floor. MR SPEAKER: No, I am not… You are still standing HONOURABLE MEMBER: You are not empowered up. Honourable Leader of the Opposition! to refuse points of order. MR SALESHANDO: The point made by Honourable MR SPEAKER: I have made a ruling. Boko must be understood well. He has not said it is HONOURABLE MEMBER: You have not even heard unconstitutional…(Interruptions)… I am elucidating a what I have to say, but when BDP members rise, you point; you cannot stop me. protect them so that they can carry on with the debate MR SPEAKER: I have stopped you. but you refuse to give us the same treatment. On a point of order Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBER: No. …(Inaudible)…

MR SPEAKER: I have refused. MR SPEAKER: I have. Yes, you are not elucidating, so I have stopped you. I have just done that. He is debating. HONOURABLE MEMBER: You are not empowered to turn down a point of order. You do not have those HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… powers. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)… MR SPEAKER: I have just done that. MR BOKO: …(Inaudible)…she debated over a minute HONOURABLE MEMBER: You do not have those and you said nothing. We are not going to proceed in powers. this manner. No! No, Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: I have made a ruling. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)…

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Because you are hurt by MR SPEAKER: Honourable Boko, you have the floor. the points we are making, you are hurt by those points, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)… you want to protect the ruling party. MR BOKO: No, we are not going to respect you when MR SPEAKER: No! I am not hurt. you do things in that manner Mr Speaker, not even three HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is what you are seconds… doing. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Speaker, Honourable MR SPEAKER: That is the end of the debate. Boko has yielded for me to elucidate.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is what you are MR SPEAKER: Yes. doing. So just tell us that you are protecting the BDP. HONOURABLE MEMBER: You cannot stop me. MR BOKO: Mr Speaker, I have much respect for you… MR SPEAKER: If you are not elucidating, I will stop HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of procedure you. Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. HONOURABLE MEMBER: I am elucidating. MR SPEAKER: There is nothing wrong with the procedure, nobody has said a word after my ruling. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Speaker, we do not care whether you are hurt by our views… HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, I just want to find out some procedures. MR SPEAKER: No!

MR SPEAKER: No! Honourable Boko. HONOURABLE MEMBER: You are.

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MR SPEAKER: No! No! back in 1998, so maybe as time goes on they will inform us how many people are still alive out of those consulted HONOURABLE MEMBER: You cannot be biased. since 1998 up to date. Maybe we are debating this issue HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)… while more than half of the people who were consulted about it are no longer alive and then we make a law MR SPEAKER: Honourable Saleshando, you have the in which people who were consulted back then, their floor. line of thoughts and sentiments are relevant to 1998 but expecting their decisions to inform us now based on the MR SALESHANDO: I do not just understand what current situation. sometimes gets to the Speaker. You may be offended by our views… MR BOKO: Thank you Honourable Member. This brings us to the Latin maxim that says, “Nihil de nobis, MR SPEAKER: No! sine nobis.” That is, “nothing for us, without us.” MR SALESHANDO: …but you have got to listen to Batswana who are alive at this point in time are saying us. Honourable Boko yielded for me to elucidate. Since that there should be nothing for us, even though you when do you reject points of elucidation even though might think that you love them over… the person holding the floor has yielded? MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Boko, The point made by Honourable Boko is that it is you will continue after the COVID break. Honourable politically undesirable and it is not proper before the eyes Members, let us adjourn for COVID. of the nation. You have been saying that it is undesirable PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED AT 4:00 P.M. FOR for people to defect and he is also saying that it is quite APPROXIMATELY 30 MINUTES undesirable because voters rejected Unity Dow. This is not about rebuking. Voters rejected her, Honourable PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 4:30 P.M. Dow was presented to them and they were asked if she is capable enough and they said no. She is now elected “EXCHANGE OF SPEAKERSHIP” back here, whether it is Constitutional or not, that is not MR SPEAKER (MR MOATLHODI): Good afternoon a debate. You cannot stop us from expressing this view. Honourable Members. When we adjourned for some MR SPEAKER: No, that is why I said Honourable refreshments this afternoon, the Honourable Member Boko can do that. for Mahalapye East was on the floor and he still has to MR SALESHANDO: You stopped me, do not deny it. himself seven minutes and 55 seconds.

MR SPEAKER: I have just said no, he can do that. I MR BOKO (MAHALAPYE EAST): Thank you Mr can distinguish between politics and the law. Speaker and congratulations on your new appointment. Mr Speaker, when we left for the COVID break, I was HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of procedure Mr Speaker. still explaining why we are saying this Bill is bad. Mr Speaker, you will recall that His Excellency the MR SPEAKER: No, let us have Honourable Boko President of the Republic of Botswana, Dr Masisi, debate. explained that we are going to do a Constitutional MR BOKO: Thank you Mr Speaker. Hey! You have Review in a short while. We have realised that it has now disrupted the flow of my debate. Mr Speaker, my taken long because this was said some time ago but it debate was not too long. I briefly said that we should keeps getting postponed. Mr Speaker, Constitution like I approach this issue with sober minds. Let us give it time, said earlier, must be revered and accorded the honour it let us engage those we have to engage, those who have deserves. It is a very sacred document that should never put us in this House. I want to repeat, this cannot be a be constantly probed. If you want to do something in it, preserve of 57 Members of Parliament plus the SEMPs. you should do it once and finish.

MR MMOLOTSI: On a point of clarification Mr Mr Speaker, why can the amendment of the Constitution Speaker. Thank you Honourable Boko. While still there, not wait for the review of the Constitution? What will they are stressing the point that they consulted people be wrong in doing that? Why can we not wait for the

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review of the Constitution and include these issues in we will be having bye-elections. Let us say somebody it where others will also be reviewed by the time we dies, and that one there is nothing we can do about it. review the Constitution? You know, bye-elections are also expensive not just to the candidate or party but to those people out there MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS queuing in the scorching sun. Now, imagine where we AND COOPERATION (DR KWAPE): On a point of have the law that says, if you floor cross, it means we clarification. Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable Boko, have to go back to queues and how many times are we I do not know if I heard you well, are you saying the going to do that? We know that it might look like it is Bill is bad or it came at the time? If it is bad, what is it calm that side at the moment but next year, we know that is bad about it? Please clarify that for me so that I that some will start revolting. It means when they start understand where exactly or is it bad timing and how revolting, we will have to deal with their revolt by going so? back to elections. We cannot run a country like that, it is MR BOKO: Thank you Honourable Minister. My focus expensive and costly. I want you to look from this angle if you heard me when I left was to look at the principles that it is going to be costly. we are to apply in terms of amending the Constitution. I Right now we are failing to increase old age pension do not want to go into the merits or the demerits of it, I and tertiary allowance because you are saying there are have left it to other Members of Parliament (MPs). They no funds. Now where are you going to get the funds to are capable and will deal with that. That is why I am hold elections every now and then as rulers that side? saying, why can we not wait to review the Constitution We need to look into these issues with sober minds. unless you have no intentions as rulers to review it? Let us not just be drunk with power. We know power It is clear that you do not have intentions to review corrupts and it is intoxicating but let us try to look into the Constitution at a time you said you will review it. these issues with clear minds and we should take time If the skies are not falling, what is the rush? That is dealing with them. the question that is asked by everybody, why are you rushing? Why are you in a hurry? You know the answer, Like I said, I want to throw this to Honourable Rakgare you are in a hurry because you see that your house is and other youth that side and say Honourable Members, leaking and everything is topsy-turvy and you are afraid let us not find ourselves to be clamped in this thing that that some might run away from it. That is not what you we have to sing along. Let us be independent thinkers. should amend the Constitution for. You should amend I know some MPs that side with hardened hearts. They the Constitution for the benefit of the great populace not cannot change. I plead with Honourable Rakgare to say, just your selfish interest. do not vote in favour of this Bill. Honourable Manake, do not vote in favour of this Bill. Honourable Majaga DR GOBOTSWANG: On a point of elucidation. amongst others who I know that your hearts are not so Another thing that we must understand is, the system hardened to change. Those are the words that I wanted they want to use is going to be very expensive. In to share with you on this Bill. This Bill is demonic. We Zambia as we speak, they are saying, they hold elections should not support it. Thank you Mr Speaker. almost every month because of this law. Now they want to use our current system. I just received a message from MINISTER OF YOUTH EMPOWERMENT, one of our comrades, if I may quote Mr Speaker, “good SPORT AND CULTURE DEVELOPMENT (MR afternoon comrades, the law you are discussing today RAKGARE): Thank you Deputy Speaker. Let me will make us poor. You must look at what is happening start by congratulating you on that seat. I believe that in Zambia because there are elections every month and as Parliament, we put you there because we know your it is really costly to the country. They actually want to capabilities. That is why we have to support you and change it to be similar to yours currently. It is actually protect you to make your job easier. We should not nonsensical to take the route you are taking.” Thank you make it hard for you Mr Speaker and may God be with Honourable. you. May God bless you sir.

MR BOKO: Thank you Honourable Member. I think Mr Speaker, I want to start by saying, if while debating that is the right word to use, this is a nonsensical law. It you hear my voice shaking, you should know that I am does not make sense at all. When you look now at the still shocked by what happened before we went for tea cost implication of it, we will have instances whereby break. I thought this is an honourable House where I do

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not expect to see Honourable Members of the Opposition to your debate Member of Parliament for Bobirwa, fight the Speaker if they were offended by something. Honourable Lucas, he said that rushing things might Many of us this side were already thinking of running result in this and that. During elections, political parties out to save our lives, it was clear that it was a serious seek votes from the nation and campaign focusing on issue, that these men want to fight…(Inaudible)… Mr their interests and they end up promising them some Speaker. things. Apart from that, there is somewhere else where we organise ourselves as political parties. Last year LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) went to Mochudi SALESHANDO): Point of order. Mr Speaker, you were in July. We were discussing our issues as a party and in Parliament, so Honourable Rakgare is insinuating that assessed our preparedness towards elections. Mr some members threatened to fight in Parliament, but Speaker, we made a resolution there that the law or floor that is not true. You should instead applaud us for our crossing Bill must be approved during this 2019/2024 effort to protect the laws of Parliament because when term. It is a decision made by the ruling party. That is we stood up, Mr Speaker ended up supporting us on the why I do not tolerate it when some members say that basis that we have to follow the procedure. So this is the we are rushing it here. No, it is because of the decision first time to see people being persecuted because they that we made. As we are representing our party, we will were fighting for justice. be going back to report what we managed to achieve, MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Thank you Honourable just like we achieved some things which they are Leader of the Opposition. I believe the Minister of complaining about that we are not intending to create Youth Empowerment, Sports and Culture Development jobs or develop the country and that we hate some was just rushing through it, he is not making an issue people. All these things were assigned to us by members out of it. You have your point on that one Honourable of BDP Mr Speaker. We understand that they are the Minister, please migrate to a new one. interests of Batswana and we are going to do them. MR RAKGARE: Thank you Mr Speaker. No problem, The Honourable Member said that some of the BDP I will drink water to calm myself down because I am still afraid. Members of Parliament are disgruntled. No, you are actually the ones who are disgruntled. Mr Speaker, MR SPEAKER: I have ruled on that issue Honourable maybe you do not know because they hide some things Minister, migrate to a new one. from you as they hate you so much. A lot is really going on that side Mr Speaker. MR RAKGARE: Thank you Mr Speaker. I heard you and I will do that. MR BOKO: Point of order. Mr Speaker I think the Honourable Member is out of order by saying that we Mr Speaker, I am a responsible person and this issue hate you so much. This is not true and he intends to bring is from Ntlo ya Dikgosi. Dikgosi were questioning if conflict between us. He is imputing improper motives the issue by Honourable Morwaeng is relevant. As on us as Members of Parliament from this side. So we national custodians, they assessed both good and bad request him to attend issues of the creative industry things which may come as a results of this Bill. They or sit down if he has nothing sensible to say like it is all wholeheartedly agree as Dikgosi, our leaders, as always the case. Thank you. custodians of the nation of Botswana. They made a decision that, what we usually hear about a Member of MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, I did not Parliament floor crosses to the other side, our main task understand your statement because you keep saying ‘that is to protect the interests of the nation that we lead. So, side’. Please direct your deliberations as per Standing Ntlo ya Dikgosi agreed that this Bill must be brought to Order 57.1; eyes on the ball. As I know, you are highly Parliament and all of us as Members of Parliament and able to do so Honourable Minister. Have your floor sir. the nation of Botswana must know that they agree, that it has to be approved so it can be implemented as a law. MR RAKGARE: Honourable Boko and some That is what Dikgosi are saying Mr Speaker, not me. members indicated that there are some members who are not happy this side… So as a humble member Mr Speaker, who respects Magosi of Botswana, I wholeheartedly support the Bill HONOURABLE MEMBER: Issues which are not by Honourable Morwaeng. I have been paying attention true.

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MR RAKGARE: Yes, they are saying that some members should have a right to be consulted so that if members are not happy this side, that how they feel, that you cross from the party you were voted under, they is how they look at things. So I am saying, they also have can have a chance to choose your successor. As the Bill some members who are not happy that side, those that states, if you are angry or simply changed your mind I know. One of them is Honourable Pono Moatlhodi, and want to cross from that party, bear in mind that the Member of Parliament for Tonota. It is not a secret, he nation voted for you through that party. So crossing is is indeed unhappy. We can also see that he is not happy not a problem, the law allows, it does not prohibit but in Parliament. They sometimes isolate, ignore and run the bottom line is that there will be by-elections to give away from him which indicates that indeed there is the voters the power to see if they still want you or they something. It is not a secret and we will not shun away wanted to vote for the party. Then you have the chance from saying that. to stand for the by-elections, so I do not see any problem with this Bill Mr Speaker which is why I support it. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… In conclusion, one of the things which surprises me MR RAKGARE: You just arrived Honourable, you is that as we usually say that we are representing the have to listen first so you can catch-up. You cannot interests of our voters but now our colleagues from the come here with these kind of issues when you just came opposition are against the voters’ referendum. Voters here from attending your personal issues. have voted for us under our political parties tickets, so Mr Speaker, this issue is really simple. Yes, we when you cross the floor there should be a by-election so that they can vote. It does not mean your right to be a might have delayed to implement the Motion by Ms candidate is seized. Kokorwe but we have already carried out the process of consultation. We went to different Dikgotla across HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. this country to seek the opinions of Batswana and they MR RAKGARE: If Hikuama wants to cross to the indicated that it is important to take the issue of floor Botswana Democratic Party and believes that the crossing to Parliament so that we can turn it into a law. people of Ngami love the Botswana Democratic Party, As Batswana, we are tired of voting and sending MPs he should go and consult them so that they can verify if to Parliament under a certain party and when they get indeed they love the party. That is our point. there, they cross to the other party. This thing has to come to an end. MR BOKO: Clarification. Thank you Mr Speaker and thank you Honourable Member. I hear you mentioning When campaigning Mr Speaker, you do not ask people the issue that we have to consider the interests of our of Mogoditshane to vote you… voters and it is not like we are not. So what is your MR SPEAKER: Clarification sought. view in terms of hypocritical behaviour where although voters indicated that they do not want you because when MR RAKGARE: Denied Mr Speaker for now. voters vote for you it shows that they love and trust you; I am not talking about whether it is constitutional or not, MR SPEAKER: Denied? what is your view regarding voters who indicated that MR RAKGARE: For now, denied. You do not say I we do not trust this candidate and tomorrow they find am here as Mr Rakgare, I will do this and that for you that candidate in Parliament? What is your response to as a member of Domkrag. We tell them how we intend that one? Thank you. to manage this country in the next five years or the MR RAKGARE: Mr Speaker, with these remarks, I solutions we bring to Batswana. thank you. I support this Bill. In addition Honourable We normally hold electoral debates before general Members, there should be no floor crossing as there elections. Political parties send their candidates and were examples given about Zambia because maybe after the implementation of this law the country will be representatives to go and deliver the mandates of their cleaning a whole lot of mess. parties. We chant slogans of our parties and we do them because you are a party representative, you do The other important aspect about this Bill again is that not come as an independent candidate. Therefore, first we will now focus on the mandate we were sent by and foremost it is important that your leaders or party our voters to execute. If you were voted as a member

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of Umbrella for Democratic Party (UDC), you focus to being arrested at airport and people thought BDP was serve your constituency under UDC, you execute your serious but immediately after elections we saw those mandate and state the ones which are unachievable. cases being dismissed. Therefore Mr Speaker, I conclude but I support this Bill. Thank you. That is why Batswana believe that they were tricked and deceived to make it seem like some things will run MR MATHOOTHE (SEROWE NORTH): Thank properly, in order to trick them into voting. That is why you Mr Speaker. Let me focus my debate on the Bill voters are approaching Members of Parliament telling tabled before us and go back to the year 1998 when a them that they should cross the floor. Even at Gaborone Motion was tabled prohibiting politicians from crossing Central as I speak, they approached the Member of the floor with their seats. The question is, from 1998 till Parliament and said the promises are not delivered so this year, why was such law not enacted then? If you pay we are leaving the party, it is your decision if you stay. attention you will realise that the majority of Members There is nothing wrong for a Member of Parliament of Parliament and Councillors who were crossing were to cross the floor when he hear his voters say they are crossing to the Botswana Democratic Party back then, leaving the party especially when he looks at the fact so if you compare it to present, they realise that luck has that he was there when they were being tricked and changed; Members of Parliament or Councillors are no given false promises. The reason there is such problems crossing the floor to BDP party but are rather crossing is because Batswana can now see that all the things over to the opposition parties. That is the reason why we were promised like electric vehicle are not being BDP is now tabling this Bill so that the door we were delivered. Things that were there that Batswana know enjoying should close as they are no longer getting new like Ipelegeng, they were able to get meals at work which members but are rather leaving. You can clearly see the were provided by someone who was awarded a three objective, that is why this Bill is being tabled urgently. months tender to provide meals for Ipelegeng workers, that is no longer happening. Batswana voted for BDP When it was tabled urgently in Parliament, the Father because of these issues. So Batswana are saying no, of the House also made a request when debating to everything is not happening, that means that we have to reduce time because he understand the impact of being request Councillors and Members of Parliament to cross allocated a long time to debate, there is going to be an to other parties. influx crossing from BDP. That is why there is a time limit so that the Bill can be quickly passed in order to HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification prohibit those who are still on the other side and this is Honourable Member. not the right procedure to enact a law. You can clearly see that the Bill on the table is full of panic. MR MATHOOTHE: The Councillors you see floor crossing at Central District, they are not doing so The other issue we need to look into is that when we because they want to run away with peoples` votes, they go for elections; there is a candidate and a party. If you are doing that because people are saying to them… look at the past incidents, we understood that if a person HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. has crossed the floor with his/her seat, people will get to decide in the next upcoming elections whether MR SPEAKER: Clarification sought. Honourable they vote the candidate or the party. If you disagreed Member for Ghanzi South. Please, switch off your with his decision there is a chance to vote for the party microphone Honourable Mathoothe. they believe in. We saw it happening with Honourable Mmolotsi as he crossed the floor to another party MR MOTSAMAI: Clarification. I humbly stand here and people still voted for him. Therefore, there is no Mr Speaker. I want Honourable Member to clarify this argument there, there is a candidate and a party, it was issue because I stay at remote areas and so that I can be a simple process and there was no need to table the Bill able to explain it clearly there. We are told that there here. is a car that is being manufactured at Mogoditshane at Mahureng. He should be clear that this car that we However, when we went for the 2019 elections there are told about is being manufactured at Mahureng at were some things the BDP promised people so they Mogoditshane, is it not the one that Batswana were told were voting based on the things they promised us. One that 100,000 jobs were going to be created for them and of the promises is corruption, we saw some people how many people have been hired in this project?

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MR SPEAKER: Honourable Motsamai, you do not say MR MMOLOTSI: Clarification. You are right and Mahureng; at Mahure. Honourable Member for Serowe maybe you should emphasise the fact that these issues North, correct the statement of a car at Mahureng should go together; the one of what voters wish for. Honourable Member. Another one that you are not supposed to leave behind is the one that voters have elected Members of Parliament MR MATHOOTHE: These are the things we are who are not bringing results (non-performance), they talking about that when we went for the elections, many are opposing everything, why are you leaving out this promises were made. So because we have said many law that can ensure that voters can take action when a things, when someone is found doing some project Member of Parliament is not doing what he promised? somewhere, they rush to them to try and say this is the car we were talking about. That is why we are have MR SPEAKER: Maybe before you respond these kinds of issues in Parliament. It is because the Honourable Member for Serowe North, I cannot tell poor people are not doing anything. They are just trying you to yield for clarification or not. In all fairness, I am to make ends meet the best way they can. requesting and pleading with you Honourable Members, the Honourable Minister responsible of Infrastructure Moving on, I was saying it is not like Members of and Housing Development requested first. I am not Parliament and Councillors are running away with oppressing anyone I am just requesting that you yield peoples` seats. The people are the ones who tell them for others Honourable Members. that where we have been things are getting out of hand; MR MATHOOTHE: Yes Honourable Mmolotsi that if you are willing to stay you can do but we are gone. is how it is. When a Member of Parliament has been That is why you will find that a Councillor wonders that elected into Parliament, when the Opposition moves now if I am left here alone, where will I go? Motions that are in line with what the voters wanted and he or she does not see the need to agree with them, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. that is an indication that they are not fulfilling the MR MATHOOTHE: They are not running away with responsibility they were given by voters. When you anything, it is just them saying where we thought we can take all the constituencies at Kgalagadi District, you put our hopes… will find that it seems like they are being neglected but they are the same people who vote for BDP. You can HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. just see that they voted for it in large numbers but now they realise that oops! where we put our vote there is MR MATHOOTHE: …where we thought we can put nothing productive there. That is why at the moment at our hopes, there is nothing productive there. That is why their places … we are taking a journey, taking our belongings and saying we are going to a better place. That thing then causes MS MONNAKGOTLA: Clarification Mr Speaker. a Councillor or Member of Parliament to follow the Thank you Honourable Member. This Motion was once brought in 2009 at Kgalagadi North. Some Member of people who voted for him or her. They look at this thing Parliament left the party without telling the voters and that way, there is nothing that they are running away the voters took the decision to never vote for that party. with. That is why I believe the way the Constitution is, So let me tell you that at Kgalagadi North, they do not it allows for those kind of circumstances, that when they like that at all; they support this Motion with everything realise that they did not vote properly because they were they have. Thank you. tricked with lies, they can have the opportunity to take MR MATHOOTHE: I am listening to you attentively the candidate they voted with them. That is the freedom and you agree with me that if there is any floor crossing, that the Constitution that has been there… the voters have an opportunity to rectify that. There are two ways to do that; they can follow that candidate and HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification Mr go where he or she has gone. That is why I am saying Speaker. that procedure is okay because there is no need to bring MR SPEAKER: On what point Honourable Mmolotsi? anything here and say that needs to be fixed.

MR MMOLOTSI: Clarification. That is why I continued and said at those constituencies of Kgalagadi District where there are places where MR SPEAKER: Please go ahead. even a radio has no signal, they can now realise that

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nothing is being done. They realise that they voted for that at that time they were trying to use it to prevent the BDP but still nothing is being done. That is why members of the BDP from leaving. Now this time they they are telling people that let us relocate because are bringing it back again because they suspect that the we did not vote for the right people. That is why it is BDP members could leave, so they came up with a Bill. like this and now it puts pressure on Councillors and This Bill has been brought like a snake that is used to Members of Parliament that between the party and the scare people. people who voted for him or her, which one will they choose. That is why candidates end up choosing the MR MATHOOTHE: That is the truth. We want to voters. When they choose the voters that is when you enlighten people so that they can see why this Bill was now want to implement a law that will prevent Members not implemented in 1998 when it was started, up to of Parliament from choosing the people so that in future now. Why was it not implemented? The reasons were that they were waiting for the last minute when they they can say I could have crossed the floor but I was would be aware of the fact that in 2024 the BDP would prevented to do that by this law. You can just see that no longer be in Government. Therefore, they are trying this law is created to prevent people from floor crossing. to block the door so that people would not leave. You need to be aware of where these things began. This was started by BDP members, some of them indicated MR KEORAPETSE: Elucidation. Honourable that they were not happy and they wanted to leave the Member, do you realise that this hypocrisy is seen in party. Then the party started giving them positions with the reality that people like Mr Kwelagobe, a veteran the hope that they will not leave. Then it was still not BDP member who is against this Bill are not quoted working and they now decided to come up with a law by the Honourable Members? People like Sir Masire that will suppress peoples` true feelings. when he talked about things which the BDP once did and he pointed out that time has come for these things There was a Motion that indicated that there should be to change; those ones they do not talk about them. The direct election of the President, and the answer to it was other thing is, do you realise that every time when this that it will be hard to be implemented because there Bill comes, it comes when there is a new party, which is no money. So right now there is this one that has a Members of Parliament and Councillors want to affiliate possibility of having bye-elections frequently, so where with. In 1998, it came to prepare people negatively to is the money for it going to come from? You can see that react against the Botswana Congress Party (BCP), it we are moving in circles here. came again in 2010 because they were uneasy about the Botswana Movement for Democracy (BMD). MR MMOLOTSI: On a point of elucidation. I just Today it has come again because there is the Botswana wanted to add onto… Patriotic Front (BPF) and the reunion of the Umbrella for Democratic Change (UDC). Do you realise the lies MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mmolotsi, you have to and the inconsistency of the BDP? be called upon by the Speaker. You do not just stand and say, “I wanted to...” Please go ahead Honourable MR MATHOOTHE: Being untruthful is not right and Member for Francistown South. that is why people are leaving en masse, because is 2019 they thought they had found a diamond when it was just MR MMOLOTSI: Sorry Mr Speaker, I am a very a piece from a broken bottle. This is what is happening. quick person. I was saying let me add something there Now they are leaving. Honourable Member that, since this law has no truth in it, this law was… Some of the things you can notice, Batswana are not happy; it is not only the BDP Members of Parliament, MR SPEAKER: Bill. even Batswana in general. What I would like to caution MR MMOLOTSI: This Bill, in 2010 Honourable about is that once this Bill passes, they should know it Member, Minister for Presidential Affairs at that time is a bomb that they have put in a pocket because you Honourable Mokgweetssi Masisi came up with this Bill cannot live with an unhappy person. The other question when Botswana Movement for Democracy (BMD) was one can ask themselves is, if a person was chased formed because Members of Parliament were relocating away by the party, what is that Member of Parliament from that side. When they went back to BDP again they supposed to do? Others say he or she just has to stay withdrew it and never continued with it. You can see put, they just have to be in the party despite the fact that

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the party no longer wants that member. You can see that MR NKAWANA: If it were in football, having a referee this is something that was forced as a way of trying to who can see that another player has set a trap for the stop some people. We are not supposed to hide behind other and was refereed, that would be the BDP. In the anything. We have to be watchful, open our eyes and olden days, they used to literally put logs as a trap for see whether this Bill was brought with the intention of other players and their toes would get bruised because it being a priority to Batswana. One can wonder, in the they kicked the ball without soccer boots. challenges we are facing, in all these things, how is this Bill going to help Batswana? There are some issues MR HIKUAMA: Clarification. I thank you Honourable that we were supposed to deal with and we decided that Member, I thank you Speaker. Honourable Member, the today looking at the table of contents, it is the one at Bill is saying a party can chase you if they no longer want the top of the Bills to be debated. When you take the you to be their member, and again those who support one on Registry of Offenders, it comes after this one this Bill are saying when you leave you would not be and according to them, this one on floor crossing takes respecting the wishes of the people who voted for you. precedence. When the party chases you out, where are the wishes of those who voted for you? From your observation, do ASSISTANT MINISTER OF YOUTH you not see this Bill as being selfish, marred with a lot EMPOWERMENT, SPORT AND CULTURE of hypocrisy, in your observation? DEVELOPMENT (MR BILLY): Clarification. I want to understand you Honourable Member, when someone MR NKAWANA: You are right Honourable Member. is chased from his or her party, where do they go? Do As I have pointed out, it was brought by angry people, they just stay there, in that party? they are scared and it is a Bill for self-preservation. Many speakers have given examples of what the BDP does MR MATHOOTHE: I had hoped you would help me when they are scared, they come with self-preservation with that one because from what I have heard, when Bills. It was evident during the tenure of Quett Masire, a Member has been chased from a party, they are not who has departed this world… allowed to join another party, it means you continue HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. to be part of that party which chased you. I had hoped upon your rising you would address it because this is MR NKAWANA: I will yield; let me deny him a bit… what I meant when I said this Bill was brought without prior preparation in many aspects just because you were MR SPEAKER: I did not hear that. rushing to block people from crossing the floor. Thank HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, he is not yielding. you Speaker. MR SPEAKER: …(Inaudible)...not you Honourable MR NKAWANA (SELEBI PHIKWE EAST): Let me Member. thank you Mr Speaker and wish you have wisdom from God, as you shall be presiding over the House, so that HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… in future once we take over Government, you would be MR NKAWANA: During President Masire’s tenure, able to guide us well because we are depending on you. when he wanted to bar Kedikilwe and others from Mr Speaker, I am rising to oppose the Bill as presented accessing the presidency, he changed the Constitution before Parliament. I am opposing it based on many so that the Vice President would automatically succeed reasons which I will outline. I think it is an angry Bill, his predecessor. This meant that if you are not the Vice one that has been brought in a haste and not well thought President, you cannot become the President. This is out by those who brought it here. I believe this Bill is what the Vice President is banking on. God forbid that taking away the right of a Motswana to do what they if that one can shift by whichever means, he knows he want to do. It is taking away their Constitutional right to would be next, not anyone else according to the BDP associate as it is the case. What I am trying to point out administration. here Your Honour is that, when you are told you are free MR KEORAPETSE: Point of elucidation. Honourable, to jump, and then you find nails on the ground laid down you are debating very well, Are you aware that it is the for you to fall on them; that cannot be called freedom… BDP culture that the Constitution is malleable, they HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… amend it to suit the interest of the party and their leader,

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as you have just cited a good example in which Mr is controlled by Batswana. Those are the Motions that Masire protected Mr Mogae from Mr Kedikilwe and Mr have to be presented under urgency. We should not table Kwelagobe who were capable of taking the Presidency Bills just because we are angry that people might defect of BDP during elections, hindering them through the from the party. When you pay attention to this Bill, it is Constitution. can only be drafted by someone...

The other thing that you are noticing is that something MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND that they are not saying is that it is not wrong for one HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR KGAFELA): to change the decisions that he/she once supported. We Point of clarification. Thank you Honourable. I wish noticed that by the time Mr Masire passed on, he did not that you can be bold and confirm that when we go for support the automatic succession issue. elections, some of the voters vote for the individual candidate, some vote for parties while some vote a MR NKAWANA: Thank you, you are raising valid combination of the individual candidate and the party. I points Honourable Member. I want the Honourable would like that to go down on record, is that a true fact Members and Ministers on the other side of the aisle or not sir? Thank you. to understand that as they are saying that this Bill was tabled in 1998, that is 22 years back and if there was MR NKAWANA: Thank you Honourable Kgafela. ever any consultation back then, we have to know that On those issues Honourable, I contested as Kgoberego that is before most developments took place and things Nkawana of Selebi Phikwe East. I submitted the have now changed. We have to realise that there were name Kgoberego Nkawana for Phikwe East and I was 40 Members of Parliament back then, 40 not 63. We did charged a certain amount of money which I had to not have fiber cable internet, yes that. I am not quite pay at Phikwe East and there were people who were sure about the name. The population of Botswana was my witnesses at Phikwe East. I then won elections at not yet two million at the time. There have been many Phikwe East as Kgoberego Nkawana. Independent developments that we can mention, developments which Electoral Commission officials called and said, “sir, put us in a position where we have to go and consult you have won, come and take the money that you gave people again because at that time their answers were us when you contested for elections,” as Kgoberego relevant to the situation back then. We should go and Nkawana. I was not contacted through any party, I was consult people about this Bill and hear their opinions, not contacted by the Secretary General of any party. No not those 1.5 people who we consulted back then, we party contacted me to say that I should go to revenue to are talking about people who are over two million today. collect my money. It is important for us to consider that there has been many development during these 22 years, so even that MR KEKGONEGILE: Point of elucidation. Thank agreement is no longer there. you Mr Speaker. Thank you Honourable Nkawana. No, you are on the right track, you are debating brilliantly. I heard some saying that they consulted people during When we win a Constituency for example, Honourable these COVID times. My constituents at Phikwe, Kgafela’s constituency... Honourable Kgafela is Mmadinare and the whole constituency do not support this Bill. They believe that we should consult them indeed telling the truth that sometimes voters vote for again because someone pointed out that most of the individual candidates and sometimes they vote for a people who supported this proposal are no longer party. This does not mean that a party will win all the alive. We have educated young people, I feel pity for time as we noticed at his Constituency, a constituency them if today...someone mentioned their names, that that Honourable Dow knows all its challenges very well. at this point in time they are afraid of someone who is The challenge there is that numbers of opposition there protecting his own interests, his party is collapsing but are large, but today Honourable Kgafela is a beneficiary he wants to complete his term. because there was a conflict within the Opposition there Mr Speaker, we need progressive laws which protect and that is why people decided to change and vote for workers, which protect businesses so that they can be him and not a party. reserved for the youth and Batswana at large. Those MR NKAWANA: Thank you Mr Speaker… are the laws that we require, not Fidelis; we need a law which will ensure that the HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

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HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... MR NKAWANA: Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, Batswana are worried all over Botswana. Every now MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, and then when they reject someone through the voting our rules are straight. Standing Order 58.4, when another system, they end up seeing this individual at Council Member is on the floor, the entire floor has got to remain or Parliament. These are matters of concern where silent. You can talk since you are grown-ups, but with we could be making a law that people who have been low voices please. There was clarification sought, did rejected during elections, we do not punish the voters, you yield Honourable Nkawana? we do not boast before them, we do not force them onto MR NKAWANA: No, Mr Speaker. people just because we have powers. If people have rejected an individual, let it be. MR SPEAKER: Please go ahead. My colleague has just pointed out that if people like MR NKAWANA: Thank you. Mr Speaker, we have to you, they go and ask you to go along with them. Are remember who we are... you going to remain in a deserted place while people leave? Why can we not respect peoples` decisions? Why HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification again. do we have a situation where when people have rejected MR NKAWANA: …as Batswana who take peoples` an individual, the next morning Honourable Molao opinions into consideration. Peoples` opinions are that appoints that individual? we should have a holistic approach to Constitutional HONOURABLE MEMBER: Molale. review. This piece-meal approach will not take us anywhere, it is the same as an instance where someone MR NKAWANA: Molale, my apologies Honourable kills a cow and then give you a small piece to go and Member. Honourable Molale spend the night choosing share with your family. We are saying that we should their names while we sleep. have a comprehensive review of the Constitution. We HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. have waited for 22 years on this Motion, why can we not wait for three months Honourable Morwaeng since we MR NKAWANA: When you wake up you find the have waited for 22 years? I share the same sentiments names of people in councils who have been rejected by with people who are saying that this Bill is influenced by people. Mr Speaker, why is that the case? emotions. Fear influenced the proposal of this Bill, yes HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR fear is there, everyone should be scared when people TSOGWANE): On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. defect, but they have a right to do so. I have to point out Thank you Honourable Member, there is no problem, it that we should not try and punish people who want to is just that there is a certain issue which was overlooked. defect. Maybe I will take you far back. You did right because Mr Speaker, I also want to point out that communities you heard that you did not address Molale properly. Let that I just mentioned were consulted about this Bill way me use this one. back when the level of literacy of Botswana was still Honourable Molale did not elect anyone at night while very low. Right now I believe that it would be cheaper we slept and tomorrow we found them in councils. He and quicker, consulting through physical interaction or was using the system that is used when it comes to modern technology. We can even use drones if they are Specially Elected Councillors. Therefore, do not accuse available. Let all these… him Honourable Nkawana. MS MONNAKGOTLA: Clarification Mr Speaker. MR NKAWANA: Thank you Mr Speaker. I thought Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you Honourable Vice President (VP) was helping me but he is not. Nkawana for yielding. He is asking why this decision was made rashly. My question to Honourable Nkawana MR SPEAKER: VP is saying “mogoa dira o a di is, if Honourable Minister Morwaeng realises that there ikgoela” meaning, be careful of the bad you wish on are some things which are not done properly and that others, it might come back to haunt you. disadvantage Batswana, should the Minister not rectify that? Thank you. MR NKAWANA: That is true.

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HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further Clarification Mr of Botswana. You campaigned in the 2019 elections Speaker. saying that you are going to represent them, now you are starting to show what kind of a person you are. MR NKAWANA: The system that was used by Now anyone who is true and responsible could support Honourable Molale then was flawed. Molao… Molale, this law because you have indicated that you are going sorry. to campaign under a certain party and its symbol HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… representing peoples` interests, unless you did that to disguise. Those who do not support this Bill are telling MR NKAWANA: It is just that he is your in law and I Batswana that they not honest. keep forgetting. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. MR BALOPI: What is the problem of following the MR NKAWANA: The system that was used by system where you agreed with people about party Honourable Molale is flawed. colours, regalia, your slogans and your manifesto? Why are you unable to continue that way so that they can HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. It is I this go and evaluate you again when you go back to them, side, do not look aside. coming in the colour… MR SPEAKER: It is coming from across the aisle. MR MMOLOTSI: On a point of clarification. MR NKAWANA: My time is almost up Honourable Thank you. Honourable Minister, I hear you. There Members, let me conclude. is another issue which is almost similar to the one you raised, which says, voters also have a right when HONOURABLE MEMBER: You see me… their Honourable Member is expelled. If you expel an (Laughter!)… Honourable Member from the party for example, why MR NKAWANA: Our request at Phikwe East is that we in this case do you not care about what the voters say should not support this Bill. It should wait for all other because when you expel an Honourable Member you laws which we have been promised that in three months do not consult voters yet they are the ones who voted will be brought to Parliament. Thank you Mr Speaker. for him and not your administration? So, you should MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR balance these things up and not consider your side only. PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR BALOPI): Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me start MR BALOPI: Let me address this issue quickly and by indicating that I support this Bill by Honourable explain BDP systems. You cannot expel an individual Minister Morwaeng. Mr Speaker, growing up I found without consultation and without that person going people describing a politician as dishonest and makes through all the necessary disciplinary steps. At our promises he or she cannot keep. branches or wards, we have disciplinary and consultation I see this Bill as one of the ways that we will clear our processes. They also assess and note that this person names to Batswana to show that if you want their vote might have derailed from our party system and therefore and want to represent them, you will be speaking the must be suspended. truth and nothing else. All of us are here through his or her party symbol and colour and was also sponsored by In this law, no one can separate you from those who the President or leader of his or her party as per Botswana voted you because being suspended from a party does Electoral Act. Therefore, when now you are here and not mean being suspended from Parliament. The Motion claim that you are here because you campaigned for by Honourable Morwaeng indicates that if a party is yourself and that the people you are representing know against you or if you no longer like that party, it is best that you campaigned for yourself and it was your name to leave and continue to represent your people. We lead which was called, no, you are deceiving yourself before through democracy, which means in everything we do, your voters, you are not telling the truth. we have to prioritise the interests of our people because The good thing about this Bill is that it shows our value we are here because of them. Some have been saying as people. The important thing about an individual is that people voted different candidates from the previous dignity and integrity before the people of the Republic ones, they do that because it is their decision.

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MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR second time, they should not run to another place to start MOLAO): Clarification. Thank you Honourable, thank afresh if they lose elections. One might think that people you Mr Speaker, I will be brief. If any of us could have have given up on them, so you cannot do that across the informed voters during campaigns that they do not like entire country. The most important thing is, we have to that particular party, that they are not promising to spend be truthful and faithful… these five years as a Member of Parliament of UDC or Domkrag, that they might end up leaving to join another MR HIKUAMA: Clarification. Thank you Honourable party and that they have to vote for them under those Minister. I am very interested on the issue of a member circumstances. How do you think voters would have who was expelled from a party. Since you expelled treated them at that time? them, why is this Bill restricting them from joining a party which accepts them? Why do you want them to MR BALOPI: I believe Honourable Nkawana and be isolated instead of permitting them to join those who other members would not be here if that was the case. appreciate them? Every member was campaigning through their party affiliation. Every candidate was launched wearing MR BALOPI: I believe that is not an issue because their party themes or colours during campaigns and some of you are already benefitting from some of the that is how people understood our party affiliations. things which take place in Parliament. That member So you would not be here if you could have said what is at liberty to either support the opposition and vote Honourable Molao was saying, that you might join with you or choose not to agree with you. This is what another party after they vote for you. I believe we all I am saying, you will be representing those who voted have to be trustworthy leaders. So do not claim that we you as an Honourable Member and you will be able to are rushing to come up with a Bill instead of waiting understand the side that supports the interests of your for Constitutional review. You should at least agree that people. For this reason, you are free to support the side indeed, we should not deceive Batswana or run away that supports those interests when voting. with their votes. Let us approve it so that we can take HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… it there. The principle is, you cannot deceive those who voted you, so do not claim that you are rejecting it MR BALOPI: I said the Member will be crossing the because we are rushing. Let us come clean as politicians floor but your participation as a Member of Parliament so that people can trust us. will continue to exist.

Another point is stability. It is not possible to make I wholeheartedly support this Bill because the nation is sound decisions without understanding your ground, watching us, they know members who are faithful and you have to be standing firm. It is very clear. If you are those who are intending to run away with their votes. like Honourable Hukhihuama, what is that? Hikuyama? Since we are not going to hold elections before 2024, Mojapane… they are going to remind you that you rejected this law HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… so that you can join another party after getting their votes. MR BALOPI: Yes, if you are like Honourable Hikuama and people are listening at you while you are at… Lastly, members of our party have always been united from the time we held our very first elections. On the MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, if it is your other hand, the opposition is made up of different colleague representing Ngami, then you are talking opinions from different parties and maybe you are doing about Honourable Hikuama! Hikuama! that so one party may continue to dominate that side. MR BALOPI: I am sorry. Honourable Hikuama, if they We have accepted that the procedure allows members to hear you talking much about Gaborone North while in either leave us to join other parties or join us from other Parliament, they are going to question why you are parties. So we are saying it is not about us but those talking about Gaborone North instead of representing who sent us. The thing Mr Speaker, when people send them as residents of Ngami? you to do something, you must be accountable for that particular thing. Minister, I wish this law could have also added that if a member had been a candidate somewhere and won So I fully support this Bill, let us approve and implement elections, then continues to be a candidate maybe for the it. Thank you.

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MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, if nobody HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible) … stands up, I shall call upon the Honourable Minister to respond to the debate. MR KAPINGA: There is nothing like being initiated, it is just a fact that I grew up at Mahalapye. So if a MR KAPINGA (OKAVANGO): Thank you Mr person brings me food, no matter how delicious they Speaker. I would like to start by making some issues look, if their hands are not clean I can refuse the offer. clear Mr Speaker. I am a member of Botswana Congress It is disheartening and quite embarrassing that this Bill Party (BCP), under the UDC and I am not interested is brought by Honourable Morwaeng who has travelled in contesting for presidency of BCP. I heard a certain full circle. You then wonder, what gives him the moral young man saying that I want to contest for presidency right that he is the one who can present this Bill. of the BCP. That is not true… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. MR SPEAKER: Who is a young man in Parliament? MR SPEAKER: Clarification sought. MR KAPINGA: Honourable Lelatisitswe Setlhomo! MR KAPINGA: Later date Mr SG. He does not have a problem with it. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Laughter!) … MR SPEAKER: Standing Order 58.11 calls for decorum of the House. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, there is nothing like that, it is either denied or agreed to, not later date. MR KAPINGA: Thank you Mr Speaker. I am briefly standing to talk about this issue. The law requires us MR KAPINGA: Yes, Mr Speaker. … (Laughter!) … to come with clean hands when we want to advance In the Bible… our issues. Similarly, we should come with clean HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. hands when bringing a Bill like this one. In Setswana we say, ‘o se bone tholwana borethe, teng ga yone MR KAPINGA: Later my brother. In the Bible there is go a baba,’ meaning that do not be deceived by the a story of Saul who changed to become Paul, there was appearance of things, what matters is the substance. If damascene moments which made us look at the world you are not careful and if you do not know members differently. I wonder what the damascene moment like Honourable Morwaeng, you will think they bring for the Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) is. What happened such that you realise that the issue you have great ideas, but if you are wise, you will understand that been rejecting for 22 years then all of a sudden it has something is fishy about their idea. Another Setswana become so urgent, and you think you have the moral saying goes, ‘mashi ke tswa thobeng ke le phepa, selabe authority to point at us and try and vilify us that we are se tla le motsaya kgamelo,’ meaning that as people, we bad people. I wonder what is it that has cleaned you so are the ones who destroy great ideas. quickly that you may assume you have a higher moral If a national referendum was done 22 years ago, then standing than us on this issue. Just recently, the leader of why was this thing kept for such a long time? If you get the BDP was publicly vowing that he is going to recruit milk from cows and place it on the kraal, the cows may more opposition members so that they collapse. So I put dust in it. You cannot drink that milk, in Sengwato wonder if that is the kind of person who can come here there is a word they use, go shema (meaning to abhor). and say he is the defender of democracy. It is not him! No qualification and authority at all that he is the one HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes we abhor. who can come here and say I am the advocate of the Botswana democracy, the same person who has vowed MR KAPINGA: Yes in Sengwato one can abhor; if to squash the opposition. Never! It can never happen. someone brings you food in a dirty plate and you can also see from his hands and face that this person is not A good principle like this law on floor crossing can be clean, you can refuse to take that food. used for evil. I did not only live in Botswana, I have travelled the world and have seen it all. At one country HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… where you have new friends you recently discovered, MR KAPINGA: I grew up at Mahalapye Honourable. they have this law of floor crossing. What they do is that It is my second home if you did not know. they instil conflict among opposition parties. They use

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everything at their disposal; whether it is intelligence, were stealing peoples` representatives because it served money or to corrupt those susceptible in the opposition. your interest at that time. You found nothing wrong They corrupt them so that there can be huge conflicts with it, but now when the time is changing against you, such that others might want to cross the floor but it is you think you have the authority to come and lecture no longer allowed…I do not want to mention names to us. Like my elder brother was doing this morning because you might chastise me for talking about people Honourable Autlwetse, you have no right to lecture us who are not here. If they attempt to cross the floor, they on this issue because your party is very much tainted… are informed that you lose your seats because you have left the party. After doing that since this is Africa, if MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Member by-elections are supposed to be called, they easily win for Okavango, on that point of lecturing on tainted because their goal was to weaken the opposition. I am nerves, as it is now six o’clock, I shall now call upon talking about your friends. Never trust anyone. Show the Honourable Leader of the House to move a Motion me your friends and I will tell your character. After you of Adjournment. instil conflict as you are attempting to do saying I want MOTION to be a Botswana Congress Party (BCP) leader and all these other stories, if one of us expresses his interests to ADJOURNMENT leave the party, you are going to wait six months without LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): Mr calling by-election to weaken the opposition. You are Speaker, after standing on our feet to represent voters’ going to bribe whoever you can so that there can be interests, I request that this House do now adjourn. insurrection in opposition then call for by-election.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: So you are easily Question put and agreed to. bribed? The Assembly according adjourned at 6:00 p.m. until MR KAPINGA: I cannot be bought. Wednesday 9th December, 2020 at 2:00 p.m.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)…

MR KAPINGA: Am I clear Honourable? When I was campaigning at Okavango, my slogan was Tu Huthe Okavango, meaning let us get back our Okavango who was stolen by people who were cheating and sent a true peoples` representative elsewhere. I told people of Okavango that Tu Huthe, let us get back our Okavango. I thank people of Okavango that they will stand…

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

MR SPEAKER: Clarification sought.

MR KAPINGA: It is not allowed Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Denied?

MR KAPINGA: Yes. I thank people of Okavango that they did not support such Motion which is done by a tainted person and party. People of Okavango made a decision that they will send a very clear message that if we voted for you and you cross the floor with our votes, we will teach you a lesson.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Laughter!) …

MR KAPINGA: They do not need a Bill from you whom your reputation is very dubious when it comes to respect for the vote of the people. The same people who

50 Hansard No 200 HANSARD RECORDERS Mr. T. Gaodumelwe, Mr T. Monakwe, Ms T. Kebonang HANSARD REPORTERS Mr M. Buti, Ms Z. Molemi, Mr J. Samunzala, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms D. Thibedi, Ms G. Baotsi, Ms N. Mokoka

HANSARD EDITORS Ms K. Nyanga, Ms C. Chonga, Mr K. Goeme, Ms G. Phatedi, Ms B. Malokwane, Mr A. Mokopakgosi, Ms O. Nkatswe, Ms G. Lekopanye, Ms T. Mokhure, Ms B. Ratshipa, Ms M. Madubeko

HANSARD TRANSLATORS Ms B. Ntisetsang, Ms M. Sekao, Ms B. Mosinyi, Ms V. Nkwane, Ms N. Kerobale, Ms K. Motswakhumo, Ms T. Motsau, Ms O. Phesodi, Mr K. Setswe

LAYOUT DESIGNERS Mr B. B. Khumanego, Mr D. T. Batshegi, Mr K. Rebaisakae

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