STATE LIBRARY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA J. D. SOMERVILLE ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION
OH 691/6
Full transcript of an interview with
MARY GRANT AND DR ALLAN KERR- GRANT
on 29 August 2003
By Karen George
Recording available on CD
Access for research: Unrestricted
Right to photocopy: Copies may be made for research and study
Right to quote or publish: Publication only with written permission from the State Library OH 691/6 MARY GRANT AND ALLAN KERR-GRANT
NOTES TO THE TRANSCRIPT
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TAPE 1 SIDE A
This is an interview with Mary Grant and Dr Allan Kerr-Grant being recorded by Karen George for the Diabetes South Australia 50th Anniversary Project. The interview is taking place on the 29th August 2003 at Stirling in South Australia.
First of all I’d like to thank you both for coming together tonight –
It’s a pleasure.
– to talk about Mary’s father, Ray Hone who was one of the founders of the Diabetic Association. So perhaps you could each introduce yourself, so that anyone who is listening knows who is actually talking. So just tell me a little bit about yourselves, just your name, where you were born, et cetera.
You speak first.
VS: Well, I’m Mary, his eldest child. Yes.
And what is your date of birth and whereabouts were you born?
MG Oh, I was born in 1924. I have a feeling he was married the year before and went to England on his honeymoon, and they got back just in time for me to be born (laughs) in October the following year.
And you, Allan?
I’m Allan Kerr-Grant, and the Kerr actually was the Christian name of my father who was a professor of Physics, and he was named just Kerr Grant, so that all of the three boys of us were all given the name Kerr, and that’s why it’s Kerr. Actually, it should be just Allan Grant, but I felt very proud of my father, and I, and another brother, kept that name, the Kerr. And I was born about two weeks younger than my wife (laughter) and I did my medical schooling here at the Royal Adelaide Hospital, and then I went over to England with Mary to study gastrointestinal diseases having passed my diploma in the College of Physicians.
VS: A higher degree, he meant.
Higher degree.
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Okay, well, we’ll start, perhaps – because you would have known your father before Allan – just with a little bit about your memories of your father. Just tell me a little bit about his background.
MG You mean he was always working.
Well, just tell me about – you were talking about your grandfather, and tell me a little bit about him, I guess, about your grandparents and your Dad and where he was born and those kinds of details.
MG Well, he was – to my knowledge, he was born in Morphett Vale in the doctor’s house, which is still there on the corner of the main road and Doctors Road, I think it is.
Yes, it’s Doctors Road.
VS: And he was the GP in Morphett Vale. And I guess he was born in about 1898, would that be right? I think it’s right.
And his father was Frank.
MG Frank Sandland Hone, the GP. And his mother had been a nurse at the Adelaide Hospital.
What was her name?
MG Graham. Was she?
I don’t know.
VS: Doesn’t matter. Must be somewhere. Michael might know that.
Yes.
VS: And he was born there. And then the family moved from Morphett Vale to be the GP in Semaphore, and he grew up there as a schoolboy going to Prince Alfred College by the tram or train – train, probably – up to the city, wouldn’t it be, from Semaphore? And they were all great sports. You have to remember they were all great sports, but my grandfather and his brother were great sports, tennis and football. There was a Hone –
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Hone Medal.
VS: – football medal in Amateur League football after Albert, who died young. Frank Sandland Hone’s brother. And then, I don’t know when, the grandfather moved up to Unley Park and really was no longer a GP, was he? He was a physician and worked more as a general physician –
Well, he became a physician, yes.
VS: – as a physician was in those days.
Yes. But he had the Diploma of Physician which he got from England.
VS: My father did, yes.
No. Your grandfather.
VS: Did he?
Yes, yes, he was. And he was one of –
VS: I didn’t know he’d ever been to England.
– he was – well, whichever way it went, that was the way it was awarded. And that’s the way they did it in those days. And he was a teacher and physician at the Royal Adelaide Hospital; indeed, he had a disease named after him, called Hone’s Disease.
Which is?
And I think that was a viral disease.
VS: Something to do with community health, wasn’t it, and rats I think.
Yes, yes, and he did a lot of work on that. I’ve got more on Frank Sandland Hone, I think, in one of the books that was written about the Adelaide [Hospital].
VS: There’s a book written on the history of the Adelaide Hospital which has a bit about some of the –
Yes, it’s got quite a lot on him.
VS: – and we look that up now and then on doctors.
But he was a remarkable old man.
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VS: They both were interested in education.
Oh, yes.
VS: They were both on the Council of the University1 –
Yes.
VS: – in their time.
So before we started you were saying that you felt that your father was greatly influenced by his own father. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
MG I think – see, his father did this research work into community health, fascinated with it.
That’s right.
VS: – and he always was later, wasn’t he?
Yes. [Frank Sandland Hone].
VS: Always worked in community medicine. And his wife did too, actually – she was awarded something for work she did with difficult girls and various things. And once they got to Semaphore he decided they’d have summer in the Hills and they built a house – he bought land and built a house at Bridgewater, and every summer six children, maids, dogs, cats – the lot – were put on the horse and dray and taken to Bridgewater for the holidays. The house is called St. Githa’s and you may well have been there.
I have.
MG (laughs) Well, he built it. And he ran an apple orchard, a commercial apple orchard there, and he got involved in the local horticultural trade, so to speak, and he was actually on the Bridgewater Council, I believe. But he also grew and showed plants in the Adelaide Show. Their washing lines, when they lived in Unley Park, were a series of jarrah stripped long boards – do you remember those, Al? –
1 The University of Adelaide.
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Yes.
VS: – and a wire, you know, with the pit prop holding them up? Well, those narrow beds were his daffodil and gladioli beds (laughs) where he grew his prizes – – –. And he showed roses. He was interested in things, too. And that came through, didn’t it.
Oh, very much so, yes.
VS: And then we used to have those Sundays – every Sunday he could take off not visiting a patient we went on picnics or hikes or walks, and we’d just study plants and animals.
Your father did the same thing. He did very much so.
VS: Yes, that was our life, it was that way.
Tell me a little bit about what your Dad was like as a father.
MG Well, the other thing he was interested in was wine. Another one I remember as a child, we’d go down to Reynella to the Reynells, and when they’d proudly say, ‘Look, we’ve got a brand new filter,’ – and filters in those days for wine were quite different, like an enormous filter pad – and we’d have this demonstrated, how they worked - all the new bits and gadgets they were getting in for wine. Fascinated with how it was made.
You were telling me something about going fishing with him often.
MG Well, no; when we were holidaying, yes. Oh, she wants to – – –.
On tape, yes.
MG Yes. We’d be at Robe and the fishermen would bring in unusual fish – were they shark, can you remember?
Yes, they used to open them up, yes.
VS: Yes, used to hang, string them up and open them up, and the whole village came to watch, learn what was inside a fish.
I remember that, yes. Yes.
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VS: Because Allan’s family holidayed often at the same time that we were down there. His father was as fond of that place as ours.
So can you perhaps tell me a little bit about his association with diabetes, how he got involved in his interest in that?
I think it was partly related to the work that he did at the Adelaide University with Brailsford Robertson, because Brailsford Robertson was actually extremely interested in diabetes and many other things as well, and it was there that Ray used to go over to the abattoirs and get the pancreases and brought them back. Indeed, when I was at Flinders in my first year there from the Queen Elizabeth, I had a patient in who actually had been treated by Ray Hone and Brailsford Robertson about forty years before and he was still alive, and I brought all the students along and got him to talk to them. Quite remarkable.
VS: In those days, or even when I was working, you often made your own chemicals. I used to buy livers and make amino acids and things to use in my experimental work; well, he did the same, didn’t he?
Oh yes, he did.
VS: – they just isolated the things they needed. You grew up learning to do that sort of chemistry.
It wasn’t Fehlings, was it? What was the solution?
VS: It was Benedict’s solution.
Benedict’s solution, in which you got the amount of sugar. I had to do that in his rooms. I used to do a little bit of his work in the rooms in the morning – kept me out of trouble, I suppose – and he used to say, ‘Look out it bumps and boils’ and it used to spray out all over.
VS: (laughs) I was talking to Elizabeth Ganguli about that this morning –
Yes.
VS: – this is a nursing friend up here – and she can remember doing it in her early nursing days –
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Yes.
VS: – boiling the Benedict’s and mind it didn’t get you in the eye. But that was with urine, wasn’t it? Not blood.
No, it was with urine – yes, it was.
VS: Yes, it was with urine.
Not blood, I never boiled blood. (laughs)
Can you describe – you were just off-tape describing where his rooms were and what they were like.
MG In Verco Buildings?
Yes.
VS: Well, they were the family rooms really, weren’t they? They were the Magarey’s as well.
Oh yes, they were, they were used by – – –.
VS: Rupert Magarey and Frank Sandland Hone had the rooms.
There were always people in it.
VS: And they were quite a large suite of rooms, weren’t they?
Yes, they were.
VS: There were – well, three or four big consulting rooms –
Yes.
VS: – and another for the secretary. And then the laboratory, which had all the windows, was like the corner room, had all the light, didn’t it? And big, long, black tables like laboratories have, and his Bunsen burners and all his glassware and incubators and – – –.
It was when I came back, I think, that for a little while I sat alongside him in his rooms while he was talking to patients, and he used to go and have lunch and he always came back a little bit late. And one day he came back and there was a lady sitting opposite and he was listening to her story, and he
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dropped off to sleep – which he often did. She stopped talking, and he said, ‘Get on with it, get on with it.’ And she said, ‘But you’ve gone to sleep.’ And he said, ‘No, I can tell you the last word you said.’ (laughter)
What was he like as a doctor?
I think he was very kind, but he could be quite abrupt with people. He suffered fools not very well, let’s put it that way.
VS: Well, he expected his nursing staff to behave, I would imagine.
Oh no, no, he was kind to them.
VS: But he was, they were caring.
– oh, very caring indeed.
VS: They were caring.
Very caring.
VS: And Frank Sandland, you said, grew up to be a good psychiatrist.
Yes.
VS: You know, he was marvellous with treating people and looking after them.
– but he could be quite abrupt at times. Quite abrupt.
VS: But he did the same thing at – what was it? That Medical Sciences Club –
Oh yes, that’s right.
VS: – that was started in Ray Hone’s time.
Yes. I went to that.
VS: And we’d go along to Medical Sciences Club – it was really doctors, but I was interested in the microbiology side so I would go, and you went to some.
I went, yes, I went too.
VS: And he nearly always went to sleep in those, but he was the first to get up and ask a pertinent question at the end.
Yes, he did. (laughs)
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VS: It all went in! (laughs)
Yes. Incredible.
You mentioned him as a teacher – tell me a little bit about that.
Ray Hone was a fabulous teacher, he really was extremely good, and I think he loved teaching. And he would come along on a Saturday morning – this was in the days when they weren’t paid, they were physicians – and he would get all his students he had under him and the registrar and the interns along, and woe betide you if you didn’t turn up for those meetings, because he came along and did it for two or three hours. And even when he did it in the other days he would get an hour late to his rooms, which made his staff upset. But that was because he was still teaching, he just loved it. And he also taught extremely well about how to deal with people, he was quite remarkable.
So were you aware of his involvement with the Diabetic Association?
MG Oh, yes.
Oh, yes, yes.
Tell me what you know about that.
Well, I went to meetings of the Diabetic Association with him.
VS: Allan was really caught in that changeover when, instead of being a general physician, which is really what your training was as a general physician to begin with.
Oh yes, very much so.
VS: It wasn’t until we came back from England that people really started to specialise. In fact, they were quite rude to you and some of the others, weren’t they, the old physicians. They thought you should be general physicians rather than have all these specialties. So you had to know about diabetes and everything, didn’t you?
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Oh yes. And I took over from Bob Burston at the Royal Adelaide to run the diabetic clinic there for two years before I went down to the Queen Elizabeth, and that’s where Bob ended up, too, down there.
VS: Well, he started the Queen Elizabeth Physicians
Yes, he started it at the Queen Elizabeth.
VS: And where Allan started the ‘gastro’ unit there, Bob started the diabetic side of gastro illness.
That’s right.
VS: But originally they had to learn.
So do you know what motivated him to sort of decide this Association was necessary, or to be involved with the setting up of it?
Ray Hone was always very keen and enquiring, and he probably had a lot of diabetic patients, which he had learnt about in England; and also with Brailsford Robertson, and I think that’s why he was motivated that way. I’m pretty sure that’s what it was. He loved going to scientific meetings and that sort of thing.
VS: But it was a community help too, wasn’t it, to start the Diabetic Clinic.
Oh, it was a community help, yes.
VS: – and I think they were always community-minded.
Yes, they were.
VS: I mean, they didn’t give much of their time to the University, or outside medicine. They worked virtually for nothing for three-quarters of their life.
Yes, that’s right.
VS: They went to the Adelaide Hospital; they looked after the patients, they ran their own wards and they taught for the University – all for nothing.
Yes, they did.
VS: The University got all its clinical teaching there for free. None of them were paid.
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So did I for a while.
VS: Yes, none of them were paid.
It was only after about eight years back from overseas -
VS: About 1970.
– that I got paid. And it was the Queen Elizabeth which first started with decisions that staff should be paid. I think it was a mistake.
VS: But they were always community-minded, I think. No, I guess that really –My father did revolt a bit against the Baptist Church, I think.
You always knew when he revolted about something, you were in no doubt at all. (laughter) You wondered whether he was going to burst into flames, actually.
VS: The father, the one before, and the generation before Frank Sandland HOne, had come out from England and was a lay preacher before he settled down and I don’t know what he ended up; I guess Michael might know what he ended up doing. Because he brought his family up in – it was Colonel Light’s Cottage in Hindmarsh that they lived, that Frank Sandland was brought up there. And then Frank Sandland carried on the lay preaching in the Baptist Church, and was very keen. But I think it was too much for him. (laughs) But they had cared for communities, they had cared about people that way.
There was an entry, something about them not being able to go to World War – to the War or something.
MG Well, he was the wrong age, wasn’t he, like others were, to go to the First World War.
Yes. Yes, he stayed at home.
VS: So he’d have studied his Medicine through that.
Yes, that’s right.
VS: But I think they left school probably around sixteen.
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Yes, they might have. Yes.
VS: And would have been doing Medicine.
But he went very early in the Second World War.
VS: Yes. But then, again, when the War – First World War – finished, then he was in the Army Reserve for years. He went into camp. The Army camp in those days was at O’Halloran Hill –
That’s right, it was.
VS: – and he would go in for his two or three weeks’ camp to do his service. Yes, because he missed out, he had to do that. And then, of course, immediately went in as a physician – went in as a major and then a lieutenant-colonel, didn’t he?
Yes.
VS: In the Second World War immediately as a consultant physician.
And you said he served in the Middle East.
MG Yes, in the Middle East. And he wasn’t very well when he came back.
No, he wasn’t, I remember.
VS: I think it was pretty hard over there –
Yes, it was, yes.
VS: – for a lot of them. And so the younger ones who came back then went on, but he got out of the Army when he came back – would have been about 1944, I think.
I’m trying to remember. Yes, it might have been earlier than that.
VS: No, I think it was 1944, because I was working my way through uni, and I took my last year off work to finish my degree quickly, and that was 1945.
Oh, well. Yes.
VS: And he was home in ’45.
It was your Uncle Ron who came back a bit earlier.
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VS: Was it? I don’t know.
He was billeted up in our house at St Peters.
VS: Oh, that’s because the changeover back from the Middle East up into the tropics – Singapore and places.
So is there anything else you can tell me about your Dad as a man, just a little bit of background ‘feel’ about the person who was so closely involved with the Association.
You knew when he wasn’t pleased with you. There was no doubt whatsoever about that. (laughs)
VS: To get back to the sporting side, my father played tennis for the state and football for the state, and got University Blues. His next brother down, Gartie – Garton, was it?
Garton.
VS: Garton. Gar, we called him. He was such a good tennis player when he was doing sixth year Medicine they wanted him in the Davis Cup. Of course, his father wouldn’t let him go, ‘you’ve got to finish’.
Wouldn’t let him go, that’s right.
VS: But the family had this orientation for sport. Well, my father was on the Board, or helped run on the Council or whatever Board of the Memorial Drive Tennis Courts for years and years and years, and as children we’d be there just before the tennis championships, we’d be walking over the courts and the centre court and ‘How’s the grass growing?’ Fascinated. And ‘The groundsman had better do this and that.’ But they gave a lot of time to sport as well.
Yes, they did.
I understand there was some – I don’t know whether you know anything about possibly some connection between tennis and Ray Hone and the other people who were involved with the Diabetic Association – David Thomas and Mrs Hack?
Yes, that’s right. I remember him, David Thomas, yes.
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VS: Oh, I remember the name Hack coming up a lot.
Yes. He used to go down – they went down during the weekdays often – Gar did and I think your father did at times – to have a hit of tennis at the Memorial Drive courts. Yes, that is quite right. And when McGrath came out – the double-handed person –
VS: Yes.
– and played there – – –.
VS: Was there a diabetic tennis player, can you remember? I think there was.
Yes! There was indeed, yes.
VS: Yes.
The American.
Ham Richardson and Bill Talbot.
Talbot, yes. And I went and watched him play with – I think you did – with your father, yes.
VS: As children, they would of course – when they were all here for the championships, they would be at our house. We all played with them. My best tennis racquet was a Donald Budge. (laughs)
Yes. I remember Don Budge. And I certainly remember the diabetic ones.
VS: They gave a lot of time –
Yes, they did.
VS: – in those days, they gave a lot of time to the community.
So there was, perhaps, because those two tennis stars actually gave one of the first talks to the Diabetic Association in 1954, I’m just wondering whether that tennis connection might have brought that about.
’54.
VS: Ah, yes.
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Yes, it would have been – yes, I think it would have been the reason, yes. Because Talbot was very good. He actually, I remember one day, I think he did get somewhat short of sugar while he was playing, then he just injected himself and went on. I think I was there on that day.
VS: Well, we were here. We came back from England at the end of ’53 –
Yes, that’s right.
VS: – and we certainly went to all the tennis.
Yes.
VS: But they support it – you know, through sport that way.
Oh, yes. I remember I went down once to play in an afternoon then, when McGrath was there, and I was playing opposite him in doubles with your Uncle Gar, and McGrath bypassed your uncle at one stage and came to the net, and Gar had a good go at him and nearly got him with a tennis ball. ‘Take that, young man!’ (laughs) or something like that, yes. You always knew when you upset a Hone.
Yes, you were saying something about there being a Hone trait, about being ‘Honish’?
MG Yes.
What did that mean?
Well, it was just that they were all like that. We had a club, actually, called ‘I married a Hone Club’. (laughs)
So what are the Hone traits, then, that your father had.
They are –
VS: Pigheaded. (laughs)
– yes, pigheaded and an ability to speak quite plainly about what you think of people. There’s a story about him, which I can’t tell you, that was the way he spoke to a young woman, sixth year, having an exam, and he didn’t like her much. And when he gave her the end result he said something and it
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went around the hospital like a rocket. (laughter) It was related to some part of her anatomy, actually!
So you said your father died quite young, relatively.
MG Yes. Very young.
What year was it?
MG I think he died in ’63, so he must have been about sixty-five.
Yes, he got very ill towards the end. He had a stroke, didn’t he, yes, he had a stroke.
VS: Yes, at the end, yes. But he was failing before that. He got heavily involved, actually, into Flinders, starting Flinders.
Yes, he did, yes.
VS: Professor Carmel lived just round the corner, and they spent a lot of time with each other. And Carmel – they were starting Flinders University and working that all out, and then he got involved with how the medical school should be set up. And a lot of that would have come from him.
Yes, it did.
VS: But again, guess who took over! (laughs)
Your husband, you’re pointing.
MG Yes.
Yes. There was something else. But it’s skipped from my poor mind now, I can’t remember.
You mentioned that the lecture theatre at Adelaide Uni was named for your father.
MG Yes. Yes, there is a Hone lecture theatre. But they were – well, you see, his brother worked there too, Gar.
Yes, he did.
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VS: They did a lot of work for the hospital, actually, I would imagine. But that was not my part. But he was always interested, wasn’t he, in anything new that came along.
Oh yes, yes.
VS: I told you about MacFarlane Burnett, and I mean that was one of his great mates.
Oh yes, Burnett.
VS: Oh, and he also – both he and his father – started the College of Physicians, you know, you had to have your trade union, so to speak.
Yes.
VS: That’s all it is really, isn’t it, it’s a – – –.
No. (laughter) No. Having been the President, no it was not!
VS: He’d have been on the original Council, surely.
Yes. He was, I think.
VS: Yes. And before the War, when they set it up in the late 1930s, the College of Physicians, the meetings would be in Sydney. No aeroplanes. He just gave up days. We’d put him on the train at night, the Melbourne Express, he got to Melbourne, the next day he went up to Sydney, then they had the meeting for a day and he did the reverse. I mean, he lost almost a week of his work just to go up there. Voluntary.
Oh, there was more than that. He was very generous, wasn’t he, because any visiting person who came their way, Ray would always have him out with him, always.
VS: Oh, we always had our house full of overseas visitors and people to do with – but he was into the setting up of the College of Physicians. He was still on the Council when we were married.
Yes, he was.
VS: He was still on the Council in 1959 when Maryanne was born.
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He used to watch her go to sleep.
VS: And then of course he examined for them, and organised the exams. And he did a lot of work in that, establishing that. So one of his great mates was another physician in Melbourne called Keith Fairley, and he did the same in Melbourne. And they got to know each other when they were at university, because Keith was as good a tennis player, and they got to know each other through tennis – they remained very firm friends, didn’t they?
Yes.
VS: Right through life. Just the university connection.
There’s one story I’d like you to tell on tape, which you told me off-tape, which was about you going out when he used to go visiting patients.
MG Oh, at night?
He would come home for dinner every night.
MG Yes, came home for dinner every night to suit the maid – the maid had to go to bed – and then he hadn’t finished his work so he’d always go back out to work again, hospital visiting or private house visiting, and a child would go in the car with him and do their homework sitting in the car while he was in visiting. And I think you liked the bit where we had to keep the cigar going. ‘I’ll be five minutes only, keep my cigar going.’
And he’d be half an hour.
VS: Oh well, he probably was. It’s history because – what was it called? What did the woman call it? Wakefield Street Hospital as is now was a little private hospital further down Wakefield Street –
Yes, it was, even in my day.
VS: – about where the Fire Brigade is – it was a cottage and we sat outside that. And then it moved further down.
Yes.
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VS: Can’t think – it had a different name. I think it was probably after the Sister who opened it. Was it Sister Rose’s?
[Break in recording, visitor arrives] That’s okay, we can finish here. I’d like to thank you very much –
That’s all right, it’s a pleasure.
– you’ve given quite a nice picture of your Dad and your father-in-law. Thank you very much for your time.
MG If you need any more help, come back.
I will.
Yes.
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