115 Re appointment of [ RAJYA SABHA ] a Parliamentary Committed 116

RESOLUTION RE: APPOINTMENT OF crores, Tamil Nadu—485 crores and A PARLIAMENTARY COMMITTEE TO Orissa—560 crores. These are their GO THOROUGHLY INTO THE outstanding loans to the Centre as on 31st MATTERS COVERING LEGISLATIVE, March, 1976. The current figures must be ADMINISTRATIVE AND FINANCIAL higher. Now, these loans are costing the states RELATIONS BETWEEN THE CENTRE Rs. 517 crores by way of interest charges AND THE STATES, EMERGENCY and so on. This is the figure for 1977-78. PROVISIONS IN THE CONSTITUTION In 1978-79, the figure will be Rs. 567 OF INDIA AND PLANNING—contd. crores. This is the interest that they have to MR. CHAIRMAN; Mr. Bhupesh Gupta to pay. Apart from this loan, there is the continue. problem of overdrafts. As on the 28th April, 1978, the overdrafts in respect of various SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA (West Bengal): States stand as follows: West Bengal—118.89 Sir, I was speaking on the issue of Centre- crores, Uttar Pradesh—142.19 crores, State relations in support of the Resolution Punjab—60.40 crores, Bihar—83.27 by our friend. Here I would like to give you crores, Madhya Pradesh—62.16 crores and some facts. Sir, Stateg are being reduced to Rajasthan.—3.27 crores. Altogether, the so many beggars, completely dependent on outstanding overdrafts come to Rs. 470.18 the Centre in many matters. crores. Apart from that, there are ways and [Mr. Deputy Chairman in the Chair] means advances and special advances amounting to Rs. 130 crores. This is the As a result, we have now arrived at a stage position. What are the revenues of the States? If when the position of the States is like this. I you take the revenue position of the States, that am drawing on the official reports, reports of should cause you alarm. I can just give you the Reserve Bank, Currency and Finance and some ot the broad figures. State revenue similar other official documents. They are all on revenue account, that is to say, their available for the Members. Sir, according to internal tax revenue plus the share they get the latest report of the Reserve Bank, the from the central tax, comes to 9,777.6 crores. debts of the States/ of India comes to Rs. This is estimated. Then the internal tax 16,263 crores, out of which the internal debts revenue within the States comes to estimated of the States account for Rs. 3296 crores. 4,339 crores out of which Rs. 2,495.1 crores is Loans and advances from the Central accounted for by the Sales Tax. It means that Government come to Rs. 11,369 crores and more than half comes from the Sales Tax. The the Provident Fund etc. amount to Rs. 1,593 amount of capital receipts from the Centre crores. comes to Rs. 2,854 crores—I am giving 1977- 78 estimate figures—, disbursements come to Now, the States of India are in this position Rs. 3,884.3 crores, and the deficit is today that they have to carry a load of Rs. 1,030 crores. This is the position of the indebtedness of the order of more than 16,000 States. Now, Sir, what happens as a result? crores of rupees. Now. Sir, what is the As you know, under our Constitution, there is a position about their finances?, Sir, as far as the provISon for transfer of resources from the indebtedness is concerned according to the Centre to the States. latest figures available in regard to the States, the amount of outstanding central loan from How many minutes can I take? the States as on 31st March, 197S is as follows MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Till before in respect of certain States: Andhra Pradesh— lunch. 770 crores. Bihar— 836 crores, Uttar Pradesh—1,073 crores, West Bengal—S46 SHRI SUNDER SINGH BHANDARI crores, Assam—143 crores, Rajasthan— (Uttar Pradesh): Are you sure we adjourn for 820 I lunch at the right time? 117 appointment of [ 12 MAY 1978 ] a Parliamentary Committee 118

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Some Now, Sir, as you know, the customs duty transfer takes place under the mandatory is not at all shared with the States. provisions of the Constitution and some The corporation tax is not shared at under the permissive provisions^ like the all with the States. No amount is sharing of income-tax and excise duty shared of these two major items of Central revenues. You will be surprised to find revenue at all. Now, how can they get the how dependence is growing and funds. Only 20 per cent of the net discretionary funds are increasing, which receipts of excise duty is shared with the are determined by bureaucrats, Ministers States. Why should it not be at least fifty and others. per cent, if not more, of the Union excise duty? You do not share Union excise duty in a bigger proportion with the States and During the First Plan period transfer ask the States to stop sales tax. Why can it from divisible resources, i.e., income tax not be done? Similarly, Sir, income-tax and excise duty, was of the order of Rs. and other problems are there. The 326 crores, during the Second Plan it Finance Commission is no solution to the was Rs. 711 crores, during the Third problem. They will not solve the Plan it was 1,196 crores, during the problem. We have to make some changes Fourth Plan it was Rs. 4,562 crores and in the Constitution. We have to give during the first three years of the period more economic powers to the States. 1974—79 it actually eame to Rs. We should make such a provision 8,335 crores. Now, if you compare under the mandate of the Constitution these figures with the figures of grants- and under the statute of the Constitution in-aid for ths corresponding period, you so that the States get a greater share of the will see that the allocation during the First resources. In that case why the customs Plan was Rs. 103 crores, during the and corporation taxeg should not be put in Second Plan was Rs. 207 crores, during the divisible pool, we cannot understand at the Third Plan was Rs. 394 crores, during all, and a certain proportion of the the Fourth Plan was Rs. 858 crores divisible pool distributed to the States and during the first three years of the under the direction of the Constitution. period 1974—79 was Rs. 2,820 This is the financial position of the State. crores. Now, if you compare these And the Finance Minister says; No debt figures with the transfers through the is going to be written oflf. This is what Planning Commission, which is the Finance Minister declared. Now you discretionary, depends on the Minister, have seen how the States have been made Department, Secretary, you will see that dependent. If the States complain, there the allocation during the First Plan was is reason for it. Their liabilities are Rs. 1413 crores, during the Second increasing; their development activities Plan was Rs. 2868 crores, during the are increasing but their revenue, Third Plan was Rs. 5,600 crores, sources—internal and even the part of during the Fourth Plan was Rs. 15,312 the revenue from the Centre to the crores end during the first three years of States—are declining proportionately the five year period between 1974—79 speaking, compared to the rest. the figure was Rs. 26,901 crores. This Therefore, in financial matters, there is would show that whereas the need not only for providing more and discretionary grants amount is increasing, more resources but also for giving them leaving states dependent on the more economic powers and financial Minister, bureaucrats, ofificials, powers so that they can raise their internal under the cover of Planning resources. All the public financial Commission or otherwise, the share of institutions are under the control of the the mandatory grants under the Government. They cannot do Constitution or permissive grants is declining proportionately. That only showg where we stand. 119 Re appointment of [ RAJYA SABHA ] a Parliamentary Committee 120

[Shri Bhupesh Gupta] .anything. Economic for the Govexnor's report. He just policies are formulated by the Central dismissed nine governments by a stroke Government. The States cannot do anything. of pen on the 30th of April '-last year. Be-isides, the Central Government have the Now, Sir, these are the Articles which need foreign loans^ gold .and deficit financing. All attention: Articles 154 248, 249, 252 Clause 2, these things are not available to the States. 258 Clause 2. 365, and there are niany other Therefore, Sir, there is a very strong case, apart Articles which give the Governor the powers from its political aspect, •.the whole number of to reserve Bills for the President's assent, or the Articles need reconsideration. Apart from hg need not give assent at all. Why should it Article 356, which provides for President's be so? If the Bills are passed by a State rule, other Articles are there. We do not want legislature, certified by the Speaker of the President's rule. concerned Statg legislature, they should be immediately the law of the land. If they are The Institution of President's rule must go. ultra vires, courts are there. Anybody can go Sir, if the Government cannot "be run, then, of to the court. The Central Government can go course hold the elec Vions as happened in the to a court and challenge it. But the Bills other States. Let the existing Government should not be held UD in 'he name of giving function •as the caretaken Government and President's assent. elections should be held. Why should there be President's rule in the State? Fifty Sir, this institution again has been very times. President's rule has been proclaimed. If grossly misused, sometimes to harass the you take into account the history of it, you will State, to prevent a legislation. We had this find that it had been misused not only for top- experience in Kerala; we had this experience pling Kerala Government^ as they did in in Bengal and now we are having this 1959 and other United Front Governments, experience everywhere. Why should it be s-o? but also for settling their factional quarrels. Article 200 and oth°r Articles should be Mr. Kamla-pati Tripathi is sitting here; he had modified. "to go out as a Chief Minister because X)t internal differences of the Congress, and in Sir, industry is a State subject. It is under 1973, the IT.P. Assembly " was suspended State List 2, but then there is an entry in the and President's rule was proclaimed and Union List, entry 52, which enables the Centre Mr. Kamlapati -was later brought here. to intervene even in the matter of industry On They misused section 356 in 1973, and in the ground that it is necessary to do so. 1976 again in order to get rid of 'Shrimati Parliament has to sanction. Similarly, Nandini Satpathy. Mr. 'Sanjay Gandhi highways is supposed to be a State subject. wanted to get rid of "her. So, President's Now, here again, the Centre can come in. rule was proclaimed for a few days. Therefore, even in the distribution of powers, Internal arrangements of the Congress yoii will find that whatever has been , given to were made in order to put there somebody else. the States can be encroached upon through Even such a misuse had been made, apart from certain other entries in the Union List as is the fact that West ""Bengal United Front done in the case of industry. Government had 'been dismissed and President's rule ' 'imposed. Like that, Sir, Today, almost all industries are under the the his-' "tory of President's rule is anti-demo- Centre, although industry is supposed to be a cratic and you have seen how Mr. "Charan State subject. Now, everybody knows it, Singh, when he wanted to use -'^his Section Everybody knows that under the In- there, did not bother even 121 Re apvoiniment of [12 MAY 1978] a Parliamentary 122 Committee Industries (Development and Regu ture except that they ask for assistance lation) Act, the Centre has got wide and help and they have to wait at the powers and those powers are derived pleasure of the bureaucrats, the Ministers, from entry 52 of the Union List. Sir, the concerned Ministries and the Similarly, many other things can be Departments. It has been stated in all the said. Here again, there is encroach documents. As a result, the ment. Administrative Reforms Commission, of which Mr. Morarji Desai himself was thg Chairman, made a very strong remark Now, Sir, take the case of the National against the manner in which the powers Development Council. What status it has of the States were being eroded and got? It has no status either under the encroached upon by the Planning Constitution or under the ordinary law. Commission. A parallel system deve- Why should it not be made a statutory loped in the name of planning, un- body? Why gh'ould not the deliberations dermining the position of the powers of and the woik of the National Development the States. Now, there is resentment in Council be made known to Parliament the States. States want planning. But they through a proper reporting by the Prime do not want planning at the pleasure and Minister? Why, similarly, should not the under the dictates of some bureaucrats work of the National Development and officials here. This is how things Council be reported by the Chief have gone wrong. I can give so many Ministers to the concerned State examples. The whole thing needs a Legislatures? There is DO such ar- review. My friend here has done a good rangement at all. Yet i^ is supposed to be service by bringing in this Resolution. a very important body. But it has no locus When shall we do it, if we do not do it standi either under the ordinary law or now? Mr. Morarji Desai says that the under the Constitution. Sir, thig is another founding fathers have said the last word matter which should cause us concern. on the subject. No. The founding fathers How the Chief Ministers feel badly about on Centre-State relations had borrowed it, you can understand. There is the lavishly from the Governm.ent of India Finance Commission. Under a."ticle 280, Act. Sir. if you go through the provisions the Finance Commission iu, appointed of the Constitution, Seventh Schedule, periodically. But the Finance Commission you will find that it is virtually an is appointed by the Central Government. enlarged edition of the Government of Why should not the Finance Commission India Act. There is nothing original about be appointed by Parliament through a it. Section 93 was there. Here, we have resolution? Why should not others also be got article 356. Section 93 has been associated in the work of the Finance bodily lifted and put here in a different Commission? Similarly, take the case of guise and renumbered. the Planning Commission. The Planning Commission has again no status either So, Sir, I think I have said enough. Here I under the Constitution or under any other should like to say one point more. I have law. Why should there not be a provision? given some figures here. Just 1 can tell It must have some constitutional and legal you how the Ministers have been getting status. And what is more, the State dependent. Mr. Raju pointed out that for Governments should be more and more two-thirds of the transfer of the resources involved in the formulation of planning we rely on the so-called discretionary and in the implementation of planning. grant. Mr. Bipinpal Das has said about it. I have given the figures. This is enough The State planning bodies must be condemnation. ' brought into the picture by the Planning Commission in a better way. Nov, i* is So, Sir, what we need really is to have a not at all in the picr national dialogue. The States 123 Re appointment of [ RAJYA SABHA ] a Parliamentary Committee 124

[Shri Bhupesh Gupta] is what is our motto. Our National must have more economical, financial Anthem echoes this. The moment power and other powers. We cannot just we recite the National Anthem, we understand the rigid, inflexible, dogmatic name the States there. It is a majestic attitude of the Prime Minister, Shri Morarji expression of the Commitment of the Desai, in this matter. He just cannot nation that this great nation must be understand the pressing demand of the strong, must be united, must aim at entire opposition. He knows that at least national integration, but that must be half a dozen .States, even Assam Chief developed in diversity, that must be a Minister. have demanded more power. kind of a garden in which flowers Mr Badal has demanded more powers blossom and the majesty and the beauty iind more financial resources for Pan-jab. of the garden will appear in every We fully support these things. •Others corner of the garden, on every flower that are also demanding. Sheikh Abdullah blossoms, and not by taking about the so- has demanded. Mr. Jyoti Basu had called string holding pearls and demanded. Mr. Ramachan-dran has diamonds. Mr. Morarji Desai thinks that demanded. The Kerala Assembly pearls and diamonds are States and his has passed a unanimous resolution power is the string which holds the asking for more powers and resources. pearls and diamonds. But, Sir, what kind Others have also spoken on the subject, of jeweller Mr. Morarji Desai is, I do but Mr. Morarji Desai in an authoritarian not know. All I would like to say is that style—this is called authoritarianism— he has used the expression in such a way hag said, no X will not have a national that Centre's authority and power have dialogue. Is it the way to speak? Is it the become a halter round the necks of language of democracy? Is it the way to the States. It is not the string respect the public opinion, the States and that holds the power. The Centre's others? authoritarian power is clearly and Finally, Sir, I would like to say definitely proving more and more of a that much is said about the unity of halter round the necks of the States. the country. We are all for the unity We want to establish real unity. The real of the country because if unity jg not Centre State relations should he re- strengthened, the nation does not live. structured and reorganised with a view to But unity on what basis? Not by the strengthening both the States and the rule of the thumb, not by Centre's Centre and,, above all, making overlordship, unity through voluntary national integration and unity meaningful co-operation between the Centre and and preventing our federal principles, the States, on a democratic founda whatever we have, from becoming a tion where the Stateg must have the dead letter. power due to them, according to at All that I wanted to say I have said. least the minimum norm of a federa More can be said on the subject. I do tion—ours is a quasi-federal structure hope that this Resolution would get due —unity which will give the States self- support of this House, including some of respect, must not make them depen my friends there. I do not know what the dent on the Centre, must be treated Government is thinking of. We have as self-respecting, co-operating part heard the Prime Minister. Some other ners of the Centre in building the na Ministers have also been talking like this. tion. That should be the approach. If They talk so many things. that is not there, only the fissiparous But I again say that I am very sorry that and divisive forces will be strengthen Mr. Morarji Desai should have spoken in ed we will not be serving the cause the language of an authoritarian ruler in of the unity. this matter. He should see the writing on the wall-' The States are crying for Finally, Sir, I would like to say that our respect to- motto is unity in diversity. That 125 Re apvoiniment of [12 MAY 1978] a Parliamentary 126 Committee wards them^ for resources, for power, Sir, this is an epoch-making Resolution for strengthening the autonomy that they which will create a new era in Centre- have got so that th^y can become the State relations. This is a simple honoured partners of the great Indian Resolution seeking to evaluate the Union, to re-build the country through existing 25 years of Centre-State relations co-operation bet/reen the Centre and the in our country. Prime Minister said that States. this is not the opportune time to discuss the Centre-State relations. Sir, I know, that ultimately, of course, all depends on how the powers are used. But that is a different matter. No amount Sir, the Resolution does not contemplate of powers will do unless the State amendments or deletions to any article of Government are in the hands of the left the Constitution. It simply ask for the democratic forces. Therefore, ultimately, appointment of a Parliamentary the strengthening of the country depends Committee to review the Centre-State on a change in the structure of political relations regarding legislative, power. Some classes must be pushed administrative and financial relations back; other classes must come ^Tward, between the Centre and the States. Sir, a or their representative must '61 -le great sea-change has taken place. For the forward. Only then. Sir, can we g(. first time one party rule had been broken rward. But for the present moment, we and Janata Party is in power in Delhi. are asking for a review of the situation. I There are various parties in the various think this House has already made a States. While the Janata Party is in very strong case for at least a review, to power at the Centre, many other begin with. As I said, we stand for the political parties are ruling in many States re-structuring of the relations in a from Kashmir to Kanya Kumari. democratic way, for democratic Kashmir is being ruled by the National purposes, to strengthen both the States Congress. In Tamil Nadu the All India and the Centre. At the moment. Sir, Anna-D.M.K. is ruling. Pondicherry what is needed is to strengthen the is also being ruled by the All India States. Anna-D.M.K. The C.P.I. (M) is ruling West Bengal and Tripura, Congress and Congress (I) are ruling in some Southern States, namely, Andhra Pradesh, Kamataka and other places. In Goa also a non-Janata Party is ruling. In Kerala the Congress supported by The House then adjourned for lunch at the C.P.T. is ruling. In Punjab eight minutes past one of the clock. Akali Dal is ruling . So this is the best opportunity to evaluate the Centre-State relationship. The House reassembled after lunch at thirty-two minutes past two of the clock. Sir, if we mention the word "auto- (Mr. Deputy Chairman in the Chair.) nomy" still somebody says it might lead to separation. This is falsehood. They SHRI K. K. MADHAVAN (Kerala): say that this question of autonomy had Sir, before you call the next speaker I been raised by the D.M.K. Party which would suggest that the time should be once a time encouraged the secessionist strictly regulated, otherwise some of us movement in the South . That is not unfortunates will be left out. correct, because the Founder father of SHRI V. V. SWAMINATHAN the D.M.K. Party, the late Chief Minister (Tamil Nadu); Mr. Deputy Chairman of Tamil Nadu, Shri Anna, who adored this august House, gave up the 127 R6 appointment of [ RAJYA SABHA ] a Parliamentary 128 Committee [Shri V. V. Swaminathan] I bloodless revolution that we have had. Now all the Opposition parties and Chief Ministers secessionist demand for Dravida Nadu in 1962 of Opposition Governments want a dialogue, itself. but the present Prime Minister says he is not prepared even to discuss this matter. This is Not only that, he changed his weekly Dravida most undemocratic. Sir, this mere slogan of Nadu into Kanji and later he asked the autonomy is not a thing that will lead to youth belonging to the D.M.K. Party to separation, but their unwillingness their donate blood for the soldiers during the adamant-attitude not to hear but shut their eyes Chinese aggression. And the then and close their ears to the word "autonomy" Government donated Rs. 6 crores during will lead to balkanisation nf this country. foreign aggression to the National Defence Fund. I think that was the greatest amount Let us, for a minute, think of what is the ever contributed by any State to the National benefit that we obtained by having a status quo Defence Fund, So also the present Chief State-Centre relationship for the past 25 years. Minister of Tamil Nadu, my revered leader, Is there any improvement? Take, for instance, Mr. M. G. Ramachandran, was once a the great countries of Russia and China. Within Congressman and was wearing Khad-dar and 25 years they made significant progress. Take, worshipping Mahatma Gandhi as his guru. also, small countries like Germany, Rumania Later Anna became his philosopher and guide. or Korea. They have also progressed. Japan He donated 1 lakh of Rupees for War Fund on also progressed. They faced great World Wars. hearing Nehru in Radio during Chinese There has been great devastation, yet they pro- aggression. Then he donated his gressed. In India we have not been able to valuable present golden award to late Shri produce any Nobel Laureate after the great Lai Bahadur Shastri during Pakistan poet Tagore and the great scientist Raman. aggression. He also wants more power, Even in sports we are utterly defeated, even in more power for the States So that no region of a traditional game like hockey, whereas the country should dominate another region in Rumania, a small state, gets a high place in the the name of integration of India. He world Olympics. It will be shocking to know wants power to augment financial resources. that even after having spent so many crores of Let it be made clear. Since secession was rupees on planning, the percentage of our preached by the D.M.K. Party once, let us people living below the poverty line is very not say that it will lead to a separatist high. The population living below the poverty tendency. What do they want? Whom line in India is 44.6 per cent in the rural areas do they doubt? During the four invasions and 51.3 per cent in the urban areas. And the on this country, twice from the Chinese and status of the States under poverty line is: twice from Pakistan, we the opposite parties Andhra Pradesh—50 per cent; Kerala—61.5 stood by the ruling party. We fought and per cent; Orissa—61 per cent; Tamil Nadu—52 whatever was needed, we contributed. per cent; Kar-nataka—49.60 per cent. There is When I was the Chairman of the no improvement. But, what about the big Chidambaram Municipality. I persuaded the business houses? A Janata Member of Dikshitar of the Nataraja temple there to Parliament, Shri Rambilas Pas-wan, in the Lok donate more than 500 grammes of gold be- Sabha, says:— longing to Lord Nataraja in the purified form of 999 variety. So also, the Srirangam "The policy of the Janata Government is Vaishnava temple donated to the National to break the monopoly Defence Fund. This is what even Henry VIII of England could not do because it was a great 129 Re appointment oj [ 12 MAY 1978 ] a Parliamentary 130 Committee houses, but unfortunately the Ja Tobacco Board from Guntur to Gujarat. This is nata Party Government had issued against the principle of the Janata Government licences worth Rs. 170.46 crores to because they want to have Centre of activities large industrial houses during the in industry only in rural areas. But they want last one year without getting clear to shift this Tobacco Board from Guntur to ance from the Monopolies and Res Gujarat. trictive Trade Practices Commis sion. Not oniy that, Sii", they were not prepared to give the minimum price or the support price People are becoming poorer but the for cotton though many a time they talk much business houses are becoming richer. In about self-reliance and still they import cot- Tamil Nadu we wanted help from the Centre ton, they import steel, they import coal, and for the implementation of a rapid transport they import cement also. So, by the existing system which costs just Rs. 26 crores, but Centre-State relations, we are not benefited. It they are not prepared to give the amount. does hot produce any results. The Central Then we wanted some electrification of Government should not be afraid of having a railway lines and conversion of metre gauge national dialogue on the request of various into broad gauge. We wanted the Sethusamu- leaders. And if they are apprehensive of the dram project. But the Planning Commission word 'autonomy' and feel that it may lead to says there is no money. But the Central danger or fissiparous tendencies, I would Government have given many crores of simply quote Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. In rupees to the few monopoly houses. I will 1945 in the All-India Congress in its Election read out the list: Three Birla companies manifesto described the nature of the future received licences worth Rs. 72.8 crores. Four federal Constitution of India as follows: JK (Singhania) firms—Rs. 26 crores. Two "The Federation of India must be a willing Thapar companies—Rs. 18 45 crores. Not union of its various parts. In order to give the only that, Sir. . . maximum autonomy to the constituent units, there may be a minimum, list of common and In Tamil Nadu we produce quite a large essential federal subjects which will apply to amount of paddy and jaggery. But there is no all units I and a further optional list of com- purchase market. When we request the mon subjects which may be accepted bv such Central Government, it does not ask the FCI units as desire to do so." or the National Agricultural Federation to purchase the paddy or jaggery. Not only that. In this connection, it is also relevant to refer to We have no power to determine the price of th-5 historical objective resolution moved bv rice. It is in the hands of the Central Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru on 22-1-1947 in the Government and the Central Government, Constituent Assembly, wherein it said that "the through the Agricultural Prices Commission, territories that now comprise the British, the fixes the price of rice. They raise the price of territories that now form the Indian States and wheat but they are not prepared to raise the such other territo-j ries which are with the price of paddy. This is not justifiable. Take present boundaries or with such places as may Andhra. In Andhra there is fine flue-cured be determined by the Constituent Assembly best Virginia tobacco m abundance, but there and thereafter according to the Constitution, is nobody to purchase it; there is no market shall retain the status of autonomy units for it. And they are not worried; the Centre is together with residuary powers." Mabatma not bothered. But once they come to know Gandhi, Shri Jayaprakash Narayan and that there is bidi tobacco in abundance in Vinobaji, Gujarat, they want to amend even the To- bacco Act and they want to shift the 414 R.S.—5 131 Re appointTnent of [RAJYA SABHA] a Parliamentary 132 Committee [Shri V. V. Swaminathan] sent Ambassador to America, Mr. Palkhivala, who in his book Constitution defaced and all these great statesmen and saints have deliled has written specifically that the Centre supported decentralisation policy. Why even has encroached too much upon the powers of the present President of India Shri N. Sanjiva the states so much that the States are not able Reddy supports it? When the Janata Party was to start industries to produce even a shaving not in power and was in the opposition, it said blade or toilet soap. So, this is for the Janata in its manifesto that it would fight for Government to re-think over its decision and decentralisation but it has not come forward come forward to consider the Resolution in with a resolution. That is the irony of fate. In favour of the opposition parties. About gold fact, the credit goes to Shri V. B. Raju but also, I want to mention one point In the recent when the undivided Congress was in power, sale of gold in Bombay, most of the he was not prepared to come forward with purchasers 70 per cent were only from such a resolution. Now, I congratulate him for Bombay, the rest of the people were from having brought such a resolution. And now he other parts of the country. Why should the comes forward with such a very innocuous people, ' the dealers, from Calcutta and resolution for the formation of a Parliamentary Kanya-I kumari go all the way to Bombay? Committee to review the matter. He has not Tenders must be received at the State capitals, even mentioned which section is to be deleted and successful bidders must be facilitated to Or which section is to be amended or what receive gold. Not only that; gold must be sold powers be given to the States and what powers by the Government to small gold-smiths and be taken away from the Centre. He has not retailers in all the towns. That will be the best given all these things. The reply from the thing. They are now having a gold refinery for Treasury Benches is that the Administrative refining old ornaments only in Bombay, That Reforms Commission has submitted the report is one Of the signs of too much power in the and that is enough and they need not consider hands of the Centre, There should tje some further. They also say that in Tamil Nadu collecting depot at Madras to collect old Government, they have constituted a jewels so that the persons who give old jewels committee presided over by the Chief Justice get immediately i equal purity of gold. of Tamil Nadu Mr. Rajamannar and then the Chief Justice of Andhra Shri Chandra Reddy Sir, the Central Government announces and Dr. A. L. Muda-liar, Vice-Chancellor of increase in D,A, to the Central Government the Madras University. He is a very renowned employees without the consent or consultation doctor whose books on Obstetrics are in of the State Government, It would affect the demand even in Japan. Those people do not State employees. They agitate. It is belong to any secessionist party or movement, only the States who have to face the they are not readers of Dravida Nadu nor music.The Central Government is subscribers to Dravida Nadu doctrine; they are creating problems for the States. the eminent people and they submitted some report also. So, if this resolution is adopted If anybody says that by accepting and as demanded, a Parliamentary Committee autonomy or mere slogan for more powers for is constituted, it would also give its report on the States, the integrity of India will imperil, the basis of the reports of the Administrative nobody would believe because India has Reforms Commission and Rajamannar successfully faced four foreign aggressions. Committee. Sir, if we are not prepared, it Not only that, Sir, everybody knows the seems, to give powers to the States, I quote the historical battle that lasted for 14 days, which pre- led to the creation ol Bangladesh and when we got nearly 133 Re appointment of [12 MAY 1978] a Parliamentary 134 Committez one crore of prisoners of war which never would be in the South, and the Hon. Minister happened in the history of any other country of Bihar said that they would not care for the from that State. India was not afraid of even South. Is it the manner of dealing with the the Seventh Fleet of America. India is very subject in the land having many languages and strong and nobody need be afraid of the unity cultures because they think that the non-Hindi of India. In fact, the people in the south, the speaking people did not vote for them and so Tamil Nadu people, want the Cauvery-Ganga they need not bother about them? Or, do they linlc, but it is the Central Government that is think that the States of M.P., Bihar and U.P. not prepared for it. You know, Sir, that all alone are enough to make a Prime Minister of civilizations grow on the banks of the rivers. India? Traditionally, the Prime Ministers were We want to link the Cauvery and the Ganga, coming from U.P. But this time the Prime but the Central Government is not prepared Minister has come from the State of Gujarat, for it. They give many reasons and say that it not U.P. is not feasible economically. Even the World Banks says tjhat it is feasible. So, whatever is This is the best opportune time, and the not convenient, comfortable, they give many Government must come forward to accept this reasons for not doing it. resolution. It should not stand on privilege and prestige. This is a very good resolution. It is a Not only that, Sir. regarding language also I golden opportunity for all the Opposition have to say that often assurances have been parties to unite together and see that this given by the Prime Minister and other resolution is passed. Ministers that Hindi will not be thrust upon anybody. I have received an invitation two days back. It is printed m Hindi and is SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: Mr. Deputy addressed also in Hindi to me. This is an Chairman. Sir. one would have expected that insult to me. It has been thrust upon me. the Prime Minister, while intervening in this debate, would have cared to answer the SHRI P. RAMAMURTI (Tamil Nadu): cogent, fuUy documented with facts and From whom is the invitation? figures and with provisions from the Constitution speech made by the Mover of the SHRI V. V. SWAMINATHAN: It ;s from Resolution, Mr. V. B. Raju. But, unfortun- the Ministry of Agriculture, I think, inviting ately the Prime Minister in his for a function on the 14th where our beloved intervention in this debate the so-called Prime Minister will participate. I could not intervention—rambled from the "Vedas" to read it. the history of the Constituent Assembly which SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: You are not itself he did not know properly. I had to supposed to read it. remind him what it was. He does not know even the history of the Congress itself. He just SHRI V. V. SWAMINATHAN: So, they rambled and pontiflcally, at the end, are indirectly thrusting it. They are appointing declared "I will not accept this Resolution." many Hindi Officers. They do not care for the Is that the way of dealing with the House? Is demand of the non-Hindi States. A Bihar that the way of debating? He is not present Minister says that they will instruct all the here. He does not want to hear our argu- Government officers to use Hindi, that if ments. And it was left to a Janata Party anybody uses English he will be taken to task Member—I think. Mr. Jagan-nathrao and that they will see that even the High Court Joshi—who quoted some obscure "Vishnu of Bihar uses only Hindi, not English. Some- Purana", to say that India was one body asked him what the reaction nation. Our Prime Minister stated, "Oh, we gave the 135 Re appointment of [ RAJYA SABHA ] a Parliamentary 136 Committee tShri P. Ramamurti] Minister or anybody, which after having achieved independence from iOr-eign rule has world the republican form of Government. It been talking of national integration for 30 is all there in the "Rig Veda". Poor years? If India is a nation, why do you talk of Morarjibhai ! He does not know the "Rig national integration?, Does Britain talk ol Veda". I wiU have to tell him that aU over national integration? Does France talk of it? the world when people were in a tribal state, Does Germany talk of it? Which is the country there was nothing but a republic. That is why in the woricV which is a nation-State, which in the early portion of "Rig Veda" in the talks of national integration? As I said, unless hoary period, they sang: you go into this question, you will not be able to solve the problem. They talked of cultural unity. The only correct thing that the Prime Minister stated was that until the' British came, there was no political unity in this country or there was ro That is: "let us work together, let us enjoy the united political power ruling over the whole fruits of labour together, let Us do heroic acts country. That is the only correct thing that he together and let us get glory together". That is has stated in the whole speech. Nothing else. the song of the tribal form of society. But Apart from that, the reality is that by the later on, what happened? The same "Rig time the later sections of "Rip-Veda" came, Veda" in the "Purusha Sukta", what does it society was divided into-classes based upon say?. It begins with: property relations. Common ownership of property went away. Rajas were created by violence. And in order to keep the property and This Purush Sukta is even now chanted by oppress the other sections of people, they the Brahmins at all religious ceremonies wanted Purohits. That philosophy was the later including the marriage ceremony. What philosophy. That was the philosophy of later - does it say? It says: Kig Veda". That was the philosophy of 'Yajur Veda". If you want, I can quote chapter and verse from the "Upanishads" otherwise known as the "Brahmanas" and "Sanyuktas". "Sam- hitas" like the "Titreya", "Mayitrey", "Shatpatha", "Ayitrey" and from the The Brahmins came from the face of Brahma. "Dharmasastras", the law codes made by The Rajas or Kshatriyas were created from successive law gives like Gautama, Vishnu, the hands of Brahma. The Vaishyas were Vasishta and the last one Manu and his created from the thigh. And from the feet commentator Kullaka Bhatta. From all these came the Shudras. Our poor Morarjibhai does things I can quote, but I do not have enough not know all this. Mr. Jagan-nath Rao Joshi time. I would, therefore, just give illustrations. (joes not know all these. He quoted from one This was the beginning; Rigveda was the obscure "Vishnu Purana". 1 can quote "Rig beginning. And then what happened? What Veda". I can quote the later portions of "Rig happened when the Yajurveda came, when the Veda". Now, why did this happen? This is a dharmashastras came,. when the Vishnu question which has got to be seriously gone Dharma Shastra came? What do all these into and understood. Unless you understand things teach? They only divided the people the problem, you will not be able to find a int» solution to this problem.

Today is there any country in the world, I would like to ask the Prime

137 appointment of [12 MAY 1978] a Parliamentary 138 Committee communities. And then we have the .great glory of their past. This is nothing but Bhagavadgita. What does Krishna say on the revivalism. This is what happens. And see to battle field of Kuru-Icshetra to Arjuna? what extent they have gone. They have gone to the extent of condemning physicians. Medicine is the noblest of professions. But they are condemning the physicians for the "1 have created the universe; 1 liave simple reason that the physician goes about created the four varnas: Brahmanas, the country; he is a Charaka. The "Charaka Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras. . . Sam-hita," the earliest compendium of medicine does not believe in this philosophy. SHRI L. R. NAIK (Karnataka): It believes in the objective realities. Nature is Chaturvarnas. a reality. It does not say, nature is maya, like Shankaracharya and the other philosophers. SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: Yes. Cha- They say, because these physicians go about turvarnas. curing the people, curing chandalas, curing everybody, one should not keep their company. The law-giver Manu says, because

"The four vamas were created by me. the physician goes about curing chandalas the physician's company should not be kept; he should not be allowed to attend the Then what happened later? Upani-shads ceremonies. You should not even keep created the philosophy and ideology for the company with him. You should not take food division of society, based upon economic from his hand. And Manu goes to the extent exploitation. On the,- basis of this philosophy of saying, the food given by a physician is the dharma shastras were written. And what something like 'Puyus' that is pus or blood. does the law-giver, Manu, say? He talks Great arguments! This is enough for Morarji's about chandalas. "Chandalas were Rigveda. untouchables". "You cannot touch him". "Anybody who touche.s him, he becomes Let us now understand that nonexistence of impure; he becomes polluted." Hear what nation-States was the state of affairs not only Manu says: in India but all over the world fc»r a long time. What is peculiar to India is the sancti- fying of the division of society into castes by the profession of medicine belongs to the the religious books and law codes. Where can Ambashtas. Higher caste people should shun you have integration under such conditions? it. There is another argument. This is what What does the Brahmin do in his daily puja? Manu says: "One must not study the He starts his puja with a sankalpa? And what scriptures in a village in which there is a does the sankalpa say? My friend who was corpse or in which chandalas live". You quoting from the Vishnu Purana and perhaps cannot read, you cannot even study, recites the sankalpa without knowing its scriptures in a village where chandalas live. meaning. What does the sankalpa say? This is the kind of Brah-minical culture that has been imposed upon this country for "Bharata varshe Bharata khande Meroh centuries, and this Brahminical culture has Dakshina parswe, Jambhu dweepe. been the doom of this country. So, what some powerful people are trying to do today is its This is what the Brahmin says. He talks of revival. It js revivalism of this decaying India not as a country. Even obscurantism that they are attempting today in this country. They are trying to sing the 139 Re appointment of [ RAJYA SABHA ] a Parliamentary ' 140 Committee [Shrj P. Ramamurti] today the Brahmin in things are necessary. What are they? They are his sankalpa does not talk of India ©s a a common language, a conv-mon territory to inhabitate, common customs and also country. coming together by me&ng of trade and "Bharata khande"—The continent of commerce which, in other words, is industrial Bharat. development. Only when industrial develop- ment took place, there appeared nation- States of Europe. This is what history It is surrounded by the three oceans; that is teaches us. Even in India till the lath century, called "Jambu-dweepe", the Jambu till the time of Au-rangzeb, nobody talked of Peninsula. India as any thing else but a kingdom. They talked of India as an empire, such as, Harsha This has been the tradition that has been Vardhana's empire, Ashoka's empire, and so handed down to our people for centuries, for on. They never talked of Ashoka as king of 2000 years, for 3000 years. This Brahminicai India. Ashoka was an emperor, a culture has disimited the people. There were chakravarti. So, these were the historical nothing but kingdoms not of nations but factors operating then. And it is only extending over a geographical territory during the 18th century the Marathas under the fighting among themselves. This is not leadership of Shivaji got the national peculiar to India. In Europe also there were consciousness because trade had developed different territorial kingdoms. National cons- in that century. During the time of Guru ciousness arose at a particular period. And Nanak in the Punjab certain amount of remember, all these years your great scholars, national consciousness was there. It began your great philosophers, your law-givers to develop and later on Ranjit Singh talked not of desha'bhaki or deshavishwasa or utilised it fully and thus Punjab got united. rashtra vishwasa. When the Marathas out-step-ped the boundaries of their national boundaries, what 3 P.M. was it called? It was called Maha They talked of 'Raj Bhakti' and 'Raj Viswasa'. Rashtra—not merely a Rashtra. Therefore, What does it mean? You must be loyal to the please understand that historically king; not loyal to the nation. Loyalty to the speaking this kind of national consciousness king. That was important. The idea of a comes into existence not by the conjuring nation did not exist at all. up of an individual, however great he may be. No individual can conjure up national One should understand that even in Europe, consciousness of the people. It comes during until the eighteenth century, there were the course of a historical process of kingdoms. The whole Europe was not one development of trade and economic unit. Germany was not one country. France development of the society. The people was not one country. Even Britain in the speaking the same language come together and earlier period was not one. There was live in a contiguous common territory and septenary—the seven kingdoms therefore, follow common cultures. They come national consciousness is '• specific together not while living in isolated villages. phenomenon. And this national consciousness They come together by means of commerce does not grow out of the wish of somebody. It and trade. The basic reason for cannot be conjured up by any great man. development of commerce is the development National consciousness grows during a of industry. Then national consciousness particular historical period of development of flowers. a society. It grows out of social i^onsciousness. And for development of The other day, I was surprised to hear national consciousness certain the Prime Minister saying about 141 Re appointment of [12 MAY 1978] Parliameniarn 142 Committee big countries. He said: "I am today respected may be with regard to other things— as far as because I am the Prime Minister of a big the powers of the Centre and the States are country". I cannot understand such a thing.» I concerned, what we have in thig Constitution ask; What about Germany? Is not the is mutatis mutandis, word for word, section Chancellor of Germany respected as mush as for section, a replica, a repetition of the you are respected as the Prime Minister? Government of India Act, 1935 and the Germany has only one-fifteenth of India's provincial autonomy scheme of that Act. I population. Is it, therefore, the bigness of a have already dealt with this aspect in my country that matters? earlier speech and so. I do not want to go into that again. The Congress repeatedly refused to SHRI KALYAN ROY (West Bengal): accept that Government of India Act of 1935 What about Cuba? and the provincial autonomy scheme for very good reasons and I do not want to go into SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: No. I Jim talking those reasons also now. I think I have already in their digits. Otherwise they will say 'you done it on an earlier occasion and I do not are a Communist'. What about the United have the time to do that now. When this is the States of America? It has got only one-third of position, the Prime Minister does not come India's population. So, these are all puerile and say why the Congress Party ip 1936 and arguments which not even children will subsequently repeatedly rejected that advance. This is the prattle of children, in provincial autonomy scheme and that which Shri Desai was indulging the other day. provincial autonomy scheme which the I was surprised to hear that. He would not be Congress rejected at that time is now found to here to hear the Members speaking. be extremely good. So, let him say that and let him efface his past and let him repudiate his He was talking of the wisdom of the past. Let Mr. Morarji Desai say: "I was a fool foimding-fatherg of our Constitution. He was then and I did not understand in 1935 the talking of the wisdom of the Constituent excellence of the scheme when I was a party Assembly. He said that it was" an elected to that resolution, by which the Congress Assembly. When I pointed out to him that it Party rejected it." Then I can understand was not on the basis of adult franchise that him. they were elected, he said that any way it was an elected body. It was elected by the But today he does not even care to answer propertied classes and by those people who any one of these questions; he does not dare could afford to get themselves educated. That to answer the question as to why it is means it was the propertied class. So, the necessary for the State Constitution was framed by the repre- of West Bengal to reserve for the assent of the sentatives of the propertied classes and that is Central Government a Bill regarding the land what we have today. This is what we have to reforms. Why should it be reserved for the clearly understand. This is the history of the assent of the Central Government? When the Constituent Assembly. State Government is fully competent to pass this Bill on a subject which is in the State List, He did not even understand, as far as this which falls completely within the purview of particular question of Centre-State relations is the State List, why should it be held up for concerned, the history of the Congress Party four months? In order to enable the jotedars even. I have got to tell him that as far as the and the landlords to circumvent it? Why relations between the Centre and the States should the Central Government enjoy that are concerned—whatever it power? Where is the much-vaunted provincial autonomy? He does not answer 143 He appointment of [RAJYA SABHA ] a Parliamentary 144 Committee [Shri P. Ramamurti] I feeling of national consciousness— you may refuse to call it nationality it is a that. He also does not answer, for example, diffeJ'enl matter—you cannot do anything, the question; Why is it that when the West you cannot write off the reality, and you Bengal UF Government passed an Act in cannot wish away the reality. Our task is to 1969 with regard to industnal relations.... see that we do not create a situation where anybody will ask to secede. Even the Dravida SHRI KALYAN ROY; It is the Industrial Munnetra Kazhagam, its leaders and, its Relations Act. followers, had the wisdom to real-' ise that the SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: .... yes, the demand for a separate State is unreal and not Industrial Relations Bill, wherein it had in conformity with the realities of the situation provided for recognition of unions by secret as it exists today. Therefore, for anybody to ballot, it was reserved for the assent of the say that greater power to the States will lead Central Government and the Central to dismemberment of India is all shibboleth. Government refused to accept it? Why is it? That only means that they do not want to give There is the provision in the Constitution that up the concentration of power they enjoy where on a Concurrent Subject there is a in their hands. Power corrupts. And absolute Central law and a State law and when there is power corrupts absolutely. Therefore, the a conflict, the Central law will prevail over more the power concentrated in the Centre, the State Law. But there was no other Central the more corrupt the Centre will be, whether law at that time regarding the recognition of Morarjibhai is there or Vajpayee is" there or trade unions. It was only by convention, only Indira is there. Even if Mahatma Gandhi were by an administrative order, that recognition there, or even if God were to be the Prime was given by verification of the figures of Minister, this power concentrated in the claimed membership by an officer. So, why Centre was it referred to the Centre? He does not would corrupt absolutely, and answer that. Again, the Kerala Government AN HON. MEMBER: If there is any God. passed the Agrarian Reforms Bill and it had to SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: If there is any be sent here. When the Bill was passed in God, according to the Upnisha- das, if we had Kerala in ... God, if he had the mis- fortune of being the SHRI P. K. KUNJACHEN (Keralah Prime Minister of this country, under 1968. conditions of such concentration of power, even. He would be corrupt, because absolute SHRI P. RAMAMURTI; .... 1968, it was power corrupts absolutely. sent to the Central Government here for The question arises; what is it that united us? assent. On the demand of the Central The answer is: the common struggle against Government, a later Government amended the British imperialism. It was that common Bill and then only assent was given. Why is it struggle, the objective of common struggle necessary? Why are these powers necessary and. coming together, realising that British for the Central Government? Where is imperialism cannot be fought single-handed. provincial autonomy? He does not care to In earlier periods, other people had tried to do answer a single question; he does not care to it; they did not succeed. Tipu Sultan tried to answer any one of these questions. But he just do it. So many other people tried to do it. In comes here and pontifically declares, "I will 1857, Rani of Jhansi and all those great not accept it." people tried to do it; they did not succeed. Therefore, when the I realisation came Sir, I say with emphasis that unless you are and also time wa* able to realise that there is a 145 appointment oj [ 12 lAAY 197§ ] a Parliamentary 146 Committee ripe, when the economy in this to Ko into those historical and social country had developed to such an pr(»esses. These processes are such that if extent that people came together and ationality you refuse to take note of them and try to consciousness sprouted and grew. It was satisfy them and evolve a scheme on the basis precisely at that period that the people of willing cooperation and common under- speaking differ ent languages and all these standing, the disruptive forces will inevitably things, came together to realise that in order appear. to fight the British they must all unite. And that unity is what we want to Then the Prime Minister made a fun of preserve. Why do we want to preserve words and said that the Constitution makers that unity? Let it be understood that made India into an Indian Union; they did not today we want to pre serve that unity for the call it a federation, as if the word 'Union' is simple rea son that even today this country is different from the word 'Federation'. What is facing neo-colonial aggression, neo Union? Joining together. What is Federation? colonialism. Therefore, our common Joining together. What is the difference enemy today continues to be imperial between the Union and Federation? Today ism under new garbs, under different garbs; you have got the United States of America; it our people have also got to fight the pre- is not called Federated States of America. capitalist formations like feudalism and semi- Probably Mr. Morarji will say that it is not a feudalism, which continue to exist whatever Federation; America is a Union. Is it the way might bethe reforms you may have carried of i arguing a political question? out. AH those reforms are on paer. Therefore, we realise that in order to - fight against this Regarding financial resources, he says exploitation both by landlords and foreign if all the income-tax resources are given to imperialists, the monopolists, the foreign the States, Maharashtra will be the greatest capital ists, the multi-nationals, the Interna beneficiary. Don't we know it? Are we tional Monetary Fund, yOU will only go and fools? Are we children? You took all shout at the International Mo netary Fund, you the words mutatis mutandis from the 1935 will go and talk only in the Colombo Constitution and only income-tax will form Conference, but you will not rouse the people part of the divisible pool and nothing else. of this country against imperialist exploita But far more than income-tax, sometimes 15 tion, for the simple reason, you know, that if to 20 times more, are the expanding you rouse the people of this country against revenues belong to the Centre. At least a big exploitation of this country by imperialists, part of it must form constitutionally a part of people will turn round and ask: what about the divisible pool which can be distributed on your exploitation? Therefore, you do not the basis of certain considerations taking dare to rouse the people of this coun try gainst into consideration the backwardness, that foreign exploitation. Tou talk about it economic development and cultural only in forums like the International Monetary development of a State. We can take all Fund and all that. Therefore, Sir, since we rea these factors into consideration. A proper lise that we have got to fight against both these formula can be evolved by the Finance enemies of the common people, that the Commission or sojmebody else in order to common people have got to unite on this basis, distribute this divisible pool. I do not know therefore, we are interested in preserving that if the D.M.K. or Mr. Annadnrai was unity and cementing that unity on the basfs of such a fool as not to understand that if our understanding of historical and social income-tax was to be reserved for the States processes at work in this country. And here I Maharashtra will get the bulk. We ask for do not like a reconsideration of the whole question. Understand it 147 Re appointment oj [ RAJYA SABHA ] a Parliameitary 148 Committee [Shri f. Ramamurti] party? I cannot understand why he rejects it. that the Congress Party itself had repeatedly SHRI K. K. MADHAVAN: If you cannot demanded it. The Congress Party had, in understand, we cannot make-you understand. 1942 in the famous Quit India Resolution specifically, proinised that the future SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: I cannot Constitution of this country Will be a federal understand why a committee cannot be one where the constituent units, the constituted. Or is Mr. Morarji Desai afraid of federating units will enjoy complete the Members of his own Party? He has not got autonomy with the residual powers resting with trust in the Members of his own Party. They the federating units. Today, you have got to can go and argue there. Why is he not answer this to the people of this country. Can wiUing? Does he think that all wisdom is I ask you why you have changed that? It is a concentrated in the Prime Minister and very significant thing that all the promises Members of his party are dummies? Janata made during the entire freedom struggle against Party talked of decentralisation of power. imperialist by the Congress Party were Where is decentralisation of power? We are completely overthrown when the Constitution today discussing this question of Centre-State was framed. Why? The proof of pudding is relations. It also involves-the question of in the eating. Why was it precisely decentralisation of power. It is the thing which overturned? It is for the simple reason that you have promised. You keep on talking of you wanted all concentration of political the Panchayats as if the resources and powers power in the Centre so that big of States have got nothing to do with it. That monopolies can grow. The growth of is the problem. Raja-ji said once thai the monopoly, monopoly capitalism and Stales were glorified municipalities. Today I monopoly capital require that concentrated call them glorified Panchayats. And, this thing political power must be in the hands of was felt by the Congress Ministers the Centre so that Birlas and Tatas and all of themselves. them can have their lobby in the Parhament, in the Central Government and in various SHRIMATI HAMIDA HABIBULLAH other offices. If power is distributed then (Uttar Pradesh): Mr. Piloo Mody is a great they will have to have their lobbies in every advocate of decentralisation. State. Birla will have to have a lobby in each of the 20 States. Local pulls will also operate SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: He does not know on the Governments there. The local many things. I can tell him many other things capitalists will also begin to operate their also. We know, for example, when Dr. B. C. pulls. Therefore, in order to avoid that thing, Roy objected to centralisation of powers, he in order to have concentration of economic hnd a big quarrel with the Central power and in order to help the growth of Government on many questions. I know, for concentration of economic power, you decided example, in 1953 when many of our people to have this Constitution overthrowing all your had been convicted under the Arms Act, and previous promises and said that the entire po- when Rajaji decided to release them and pass litical power will be concentrated in the orders it required the sanction of the Central Centre. Government. So. when I was comiing to Delhi, Rajaji told me that he had written to After all, what is this resolution? The Pandit Govind Bal-labh Pant, who was at that resolution simply says that let us have a time the Home Minister and asked me to committee of Parliament. Why does the Prime go Minister not have confidence in the Members of his own 149 Re appointment of [12 MAY 1978] a Parliamentary 150 Committee and meet him and request him to expedite the you defend the country, through which you necessary sanction. I went to see Pantji. Pantji suppress a rebellion in the country should at that time said: remain with the Centre. Nobody raises a question of demanding any of these things. (Time hell rings).

I cannot accept it. I reported the posi tion to Therefore, where is the question of divisive Rajaji. Ra.iaji telephoned Panditji and said: I forces operating in the country being behind am resigning, I am quitting. Under the threat ot this demand? Therefore, Sir^ I once again, re signation, he had to get these people want to point out that if these things are not ac- released. Why should this power be cepted, it is you who will be responsible for concentrated in the hands of the Centre? Mr. the dire consequences. It is the ruling classes, Morarji Desai does not answer that question. it is the propertied class, it is the big business Therefore, Sir, only a simple proposition is put houses who will be responsible. Despite your forward today. The mover of this Resolution talking otheiwise your policies are in the is not bringing forward eny amend ment to the interests of big business houses. It is these big Constitution nor has he said that no business houses which are interested in amendments to the Cons titution are necessary. keeping power with the Centre. Mr. Morarji Going by ex perience, why was it that many Desai and the Janata Party is today only echo- Janata Party Chief Ministers agreed at one ing the feelings and the desires of these people time but later on, under pressure re fused to when they say, we will not hold a debate on accept the holding of the meeting of Chief this question. Mere denial will not do. The Ministers to consider the financial aspects. growth of monopoly is there. Another Member That was under pressure. The instinctive has just now given the figures. Therefore, Sir, feeling was there that they do not have got denial of these things and saying we want to enough pcwers. Therefore, when this instinc prevent concentration of wealth are not tive feeling, even among the Chief Ministers enough. The way to hell is paved with good belonging to your own Party, is there, the more iTitentions. Intentions alone do not matter. you try to suppress it, the more it will burst out Therefore, having seen the working of the in a violent form some day. And we want to Constitution, having seen that it has led to the avoid it bursting out in a vio lent form. But concentration of economic power in the hands once it bursts out in a violent form you will not of a few, having seen that this concentration of be able to control it. Again I ask where is power in the Centre has not led to the the question of disruption of unity in this evenness, to the levelling of the unequal country? _ . _ development in all these States but has led to more and more unequal development, as Everybody in the country says that the between States, having seen that as a result of Defence must be with the Centre. the it animosities deepen between State after State, Communications must be in the hands of the quarrels develop in the matter of allocation of Centre, these are the vital things necessary for wasters, in the location of an industry, having the unity of the country. Defence, seen all these things with the experience of the Communications, External Affairs and last 30 years, that such disruptive forces are Currency. These vital things are going to be in growing, is it not prudence on the part of the the hands of the Centre. Nobody has de- Government, a serious Government, a manded that any of these things should be responsible Govern- transferred to the States. So these vital functions through which you run the country, through which 151 Re appointTnent 0/ [RAJYA SABHA] a Parliamentary 152 Committee Shri P. Ramamurti Thank you. ment, a responsible Prime Minister, to see how SHRI MURASOLI MARAN (Tamil Nadu): to combat these forces, how to level up these Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I rise to support the things? Is H not necessary to go into the ro-ot Resolution moved by Mr. Raju. I should also of these things and seek the willing co- like to congratulate Mr. Raju for having made operation of all these States, if .necessary, by an illuminating speech illustrating how the any change in the Constitution, for which we various provisions Of the present Constitution all must be prepared? What did the British are highly unsatisfactory regarding the Centre- •Government give us this scheme in 1935? I am State relations. I do remember that in 1970 the very sorry to say that the leaders of the DMK Party organised a conference on State Constitution whom we call great men did not Autono.my in Madras and Mr. Raju . also have greater wisdom than the Sim.on participated in that conference along with Commission and the British Government which people like Mr. A joy . Mukherjee and others. framed the 1935 Act, as far as this question is I am So very glad Mr. Raju is keeping up the concerned. If some people say that is the acme same spirits and I am further glad that Mr. of wisdom, we refuse to accept that. We have Raju has not been spoiled because of his onlv to pity them. association with the ruling party.

Therefore, with all the emphasis at my Sir, regarding the Centre-State relations. com^mand, i want to support this Resolution. I We have got three documents, very good want the Janata Party people to reconsider it. documents. One is the report of the Mr. Morarji Desai asked us to reconsider it. I Rajamannar Committee given during the Would ask him to reconsider it. Let him not DMK regime. Thei second is the white paper talk like th^ Dharam-shastras. Let him not talk on the resolution passed by the Tamil Nadu like Manu who would not have the company of Legislature during the DMK regime. And the physicians because they would go among the third one is the present memorandum untouchables. D-o not behave like Manu of Ihe prepared by the Left-front Government of Tarka-shastras. He was afraid of logic. Manu West Bengal. Sir, regarding the three said, "Brahmins should not have anything to do documents, the Home Ministry has given its with the Tarka-shastras". it is because he was opinion which hag come in the newspapers. afraid of logic, because his philosophy was What does the Home Ministry feel about the based not on logic. Therefore do not behave third document? like Manu, have logic. We will argue with logic. If you are not prepared to listen to logic the proposals put forward by the left-front and reason, then hell will descend on this Government of West Bengal were not so new country. You will be responsible for the and had been mooted earlier by the Rajamannar unleashing of disruptive forces in a way which Co.mmittee appointed by the erstwhilg DMK- we all want to avoid and prevent. We are led Ministry in Tamil Nadu, and subsequently interested in keeping up the unity of the in a 'white paper' prepared by the State country which was built through the struggle Government." against imperialism. We are interested in cementing it. We are interested in making it Sir, thus starts the communique of the Home like a rock or steel. Therefore, please accepit Ministry. And what is the reaction on the this Resolution. three documents produced by two Governments elected by the people? Sir, I want once again to 153 Re appointment of [ 12 MAY 1978 ] a Parliamentary 154 Committee quote from the communique of the Home ffeasure of the Centre. Regardmg this specific Ministry. I quote: article, the Prime Minister has stated that this power is very vital. I am simply astonished "All these three documents seek to shift and surprise because this was not the voice of the balance of the Centre-State relationship Mr. Morarji Desai when the Janata Party towards the States and to reduce thg came into being. Sir, I would like to quote constitutional edifice to a loose federation." from^ the manifesto of the Janata Party. They Sir, they have said the last word. Un- have stated certain things in regard to article fortunately, the Prime Minister has said that 35() which violates the very spirit of fede- he is not at all ready to have any formal ralism. I would quote from the Janata Party dialogue on the subject. I would say it is very manifesto. It says; unfortunate. I do not know why the hen. Prime Minister should be allergic to a subject "The Janata Party will move to amend of such importance. The Prime Minister has article 356 to ensure that the power to impose President's Rule in the States is not said: misused to benefit the ruling party or n/ "The powers given to the Centre are vital favoured section within it." but the Government is trying to see that they are not mis-" used." This was the solemn assurance given by the These are the words of the hon. Prime Janata Party to the people o£ 22 States, the Minister. Hg agrees that certain provisions in people of this nation. Why did they want to the Constitution are likely to be misused, but remove this article or to amend this article? at the same time.... Sir, in the Preamble, they say; SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: Can be misused, to generate fearlessness and to revive not likely to be misused. democracy SHRI MURASOLI MARAN: This is according to the Prime Minister. ....he gives This is there in item number seven of their us an assurance that those provisions will not catalogue. Therefore, once again, I would be misused. Sir, with great respect to the hon. remind the Prime Minister that what they Prime Minister, I would say that man is, have stated In the Janata Party manifesto unfortunately, not immortal. Tomorrow, in shou'd be implemented. That is why people the Treasury Benches, some obscurantists have sent you here. Therefore, even if you are may come to power. not agreeable to the Resolution moved by Mr. SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: Yesterday. it Raju, you shoujd at least fulfil what you have happened. prom'.>-ed to the people of India in the namo of creating fearlessness and revivinj;.. SHRI MURASOLI MARAN: What will happen if an obscurantist party or an SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Th.s obscurantist person comes to power in Delhi and starts misusing all the provisions of the manifesto has been spiritually buried like the Constitution? We have seen with our own time capsule. eyes how even innocuous provisions have SHRI MURASOLI MARAN: Let us create been misused. So^ our plea is that those another time capsule and put it also if the provisions that are likely to be misused and Prime Minister does not keep his word. those that had been mi.s-used should be amended, should be thrown out lock, stock Secondly, the much used words of the and barrel. powers that be are that the Administrative Let us take the notorious article 356 under Reforms Commission has given the verdict. which a State Government can be toppled at The Administrative the will and 155 Re appointment cf [ RAJYA SABHA ] a Parliamentary 156 Committee [Shri Murasoli Maran] have taken place. All I would request them is that they should implement at least those Eeforrr.s Commission, in its report, has stated recommendations which have been that everything in the Constitution is valid commended by the ARC: and that, therefore, no change in the Constitution is necessary. This is in the Home [The Vice-chairman (Shri Shyam Lai Yadav) Ministry's communique. This is often repeated. Time and again, ad nauseam, they in the Chair say that the Administrative Reforms Commission has given the panacea for all Sir, what does the Administrative Centre-State ills. I am sorry to differ from> Reforms Commission say? (Interruptions) I this. There are two reports. One is the report am not lowering the demand. I am asking given by Mr. Hanumanthaiya. He was the them to at least do what they preach in their Chairman at that time. (Before that, a study Bible. Now article 263 says that there should team was appointed under the Chairmanship be an Inter-State Council. There are of Mr. Setalvad. They have gone into the many provisions in our Constitution which question. They say; are not at all used, not at all touched, they have been kept in hibernation during the last 30 "We have proceeded on the assumption years. Article 263 provides for an Inter- that the basic constitutional fabric must State Council, but so far they have not provided remain intact." for it. Even though the Administrative Reforms Commission has also recommended it, no Government neither the previous Sir, this very assumption is wrong. They Government, nor even this Janata have not at all taken into account the issue of Government has done it. Why, what is the amending the Constitution. Therefore, the reason? The reason is very simple. At pre- very premise, the very starting point, is sent, according to the Constitution there is wrong. Secondly, the same Setalvad a master-servant relationship between the Committee says: Centre and the States. If they create an Inter- "As our enquiry concerned itself with State Council, they would be equal partners administrative reforms and not with basic the States would be sitting in the Inter-State constitutional and political reforms, we did Council along with the Centre as equal not consider it appropriate to include partners. But the Central Government legislative relationship within the scope of does not want to give States such an equal the study." status. Is the Centre genuinely interested in the States as they proclaim? I do not Therefore, they have neglected all the think so. Another article which has not been political and constitutional aspects of the given effect to, which has been left aloof, is Centre-State relations. Why? They have article 269(f). According to this article the stated the reason; Centre can levy taxes on the sale or purchase of newspapers and on advertisements "We do not consider the time ripe or in published therein. Here is a clear-cut any other way appropriate for a general provision in the Constitution. The Centre hag review of this nature." got all the powers to tax advertisements appearing in newspapers. You know very SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: They are well that there are several newspapers looking for a proper astrologer, with circulation in lakhs. They can give a copy Of their newspaper to the SHRI MURASOLI MARAN: Much water has flown under the river Yamuna since then. Many changes 157 appointment of [12 MAY 1978] a Parliamentary 158 Committee buyer free of cost and yet they will be making cosmetics, soaps and other toilet requisites profits because of their earnings from have all been brought under the dominion of advertisements, but the Centre is not levying the Centre. That is why Mr. Palkhiwala^ the tax. Why, what is the reason? The reason presently the Indian Ambassador in America is simple. If they levy the tax, they would and one of the patrons of the Janata Gov- collect it and give it back to the States. So, ernment, has stated in his book, I quote; Sir, they do not want to augment the resources of the "We have permitted a clear fraud to be perpetrated upon the powers of the States States. So, I cannot accept the theory, that the under the Constitution." Centre is very much interested in the welfare of the States. If you are not in agreement with the Resolution of Mr. Raju, at least do away with this fraud which has been committed in the Mr. Ramamurti has said that our present name of the Constitution. It has been Constitution is almost Q copy of the 1935 Act. advocated by no less a person than Mr. (Interruptions) Not only that, it is a copy in Palkhi-vala in his book 'Our Constitution respect of many aspects. According to Mr. Defaced and Defiled', Durga Das Basu, 75 per cent of the present Constitution has been textu-ally copied from Sir, the primary argument put against the the 1935 Act. In the 1935 Act this Parliament clamour for autonomy is that it will endanger was called the 'Federal Pai'liamenf, the the unity of India. 'Mr. Ramamurti has dwelt Supreme Court was called the 'Federal Court on that subject and I do not want to go deep of India', the Railways were called 'Federal into that problem. As he has put it, the Prime Railways'. Now they have removed Minister has said that he is respected abroad everytliing. The semblance of federalism has because he is the Prime Minister of a large been removed from the 1935 Act. Besides country. He has broken that argument. It is this, what all has b«en provided in the present beside the point. Nobody wants to lessen the Constitution has also been taken away by the size of India. Those who want State Central Government. I want to say that certain autonomy, those who are supporting the frauds have been committed upon the powers Resolution of Mr. Raju have never said that of the States. Don't think that I am using they want to reduce the size of the country. strong words. These are the words used by a There was a time when you could dub friend of the Janata Party. Sir, there are three anybody, if he demanded State autonomy, as significant entries in the State List: (a) a secessionist. You could gag the mouths of Industries; (b) trade and commerce and (c) those who wanted State autonomy by saying production, supply and distribution of goods. that they were anti-national. Nobody would Sir, the basic scheme of the Constitution is believe that. I want to quote the words of an that industries and commerce should remain eminent Indian—a contemporary Indian. He as State subjects and should be dealt with says: "The Centre should have only natural primarily by the States. But as Mr. powers and deal with defence, external affairs Swaminathan as told us, by one stroke of the and general economic policy". Who is this pen, by passing a resolution here, the Centre great Indian? He is none else than Mr. has taken away as much as 93 per cent of Jayaprakash Naravan. He bas said that Centre industries in terms of value of their output. can have these powers alone. Now nobody Even items like razor bladea, paper, gum, will say that 'JP' is unpatriotic shoes, matchboxes, household electrical appliances, 159 Re appointment of [ RAJYA SABHA ] a Parliamentary 160 Committee [Shri Murasoli Maran] trative conveniences for its imperial adventure, crushing local initiative and Nobody can claim to be more patriotic tiian regional creativity. You cannot run a country 'JP'. He is the godfather of the Janata Party, he of continental proportions by sitting in Delhi. is one of the guardian angels of the Janata You maybe a powerful person; you may have party. He has made it very clear that the a very discipline party. But look at the size of Centre should have only these powers— the country from the Himalayas to Kanya defence, external affairs and general Kumari. You cannot run the country by economic policy. Sir, do they mean to say that remote control. That is the very basis of the 'JP' is unpatriotic and anti-national? I do not demand for State autonomy. think so. When we achieved Independence, Mahatma Gandhi was no more needed. I think, after we restored freedom and Therefore, Sir, federalism is the only democracy, the relevance of 'JP' also seems to answer. You can solve the problems of the have gone. nation only by injecting real federalism, wholesome federalism into our political SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA; He is now the structure. Sir, people say that the Indian States integrator of the Janata Party. are the-creatures of the Constitution, i am not ready to take that argument. In America, all SHRI MURASOLI MARAN; That is the 13 sovereign States joined together and right. That is why I tell them, please take his created a federation. In India, the situation is advice also in this matter. If you are taking the reverse. We have to make federalism by a his advice regarding inter-party affairs, reverse process. If States are the creatures of regarding this matter also, please take his ad- the Constitution, I would say that the Centre vice. is also a creature of the Constitution. So what We want is a shared sovereignty. Sovereignty Why are we demanding State autonomy? It is not a static slogan or a dogmatic should be shared by the Centre as well as by proclamation. The reason for clamouring for all the 22 States. That is why, Sir, the Chief State autonomy is that the States have come Ministers or the ruling governments in the of age. After the creation of linguistic States, States have no freedom of action; but the every State has attained a personality a nation-building activities are, in the hands of separate identity, with its geographical area, the State Governments. And they have no with its homeland. You may call it by finances. They have no money and they have whatever name you like. The Marxists call it no freedom of action also. That is why Sheikh nationality; you may call it a sub-nation or Abdullah said that if a Chief Minister wants cultural nationalism. Whatever name you may to sneeze he has to come to Delhi to seek give, but this point is there, realism is there permission. He has explained the situation and you cannot forget that the States have very correctly. May I at this juncture draw come of age, with their separate entities. your attention to what the present President of Moreover, they are nearer to the people. This India, Mr. Sanjiva Reddy has said? Let us see is an age of action. People want performance what his experience is as a Chief Minister of a and solution of the problems—and that too very big State in India. This is what he said in immediately. They are not ready to wait. the Link Magazine of January 26, 1978:

Sir, the Centre has been behaving like an "As a Chief Minister, 20 years ago, uncontrollable colossus and treating the I used to feel this. For exam- States as mere adminis- 161 Re api3ointment of [ 12 MAY 1978 ] a Parliamentary 162 Committee pie an estimate ig made for a bridge costing and think that they are possessing all the Rs. 30—40 lakhs. I know where the bridge is. money and all the wealth. And when a natural I know how it is constructed, if the Planning calamity takes place in Tamil Nadu, the Chief Commission has to examine the ' project, and Minister or somebody else has to come here it has to go for the consideration of the with a begging bowl. In fact, the money Central Government, then there is any amount belongs to the State. Is it not exploitation of delay over small things like a bridge or a similar to he one indulged by he East India small project. Such centralisations will not Company Government of old? I would call work in future." the present exploitation as internal colonialism. During the Company days they This is what the President has stated. The used to take away the profits to England. theme of subordination of States to the Now the money is sent to the Gov-ei'nment Centre runs through our entire Constitution. of India. You tax the people, take away the And a nincomjKiop from some State coming money and bring it to Delhi. And the States to occupy some power in Delhi thinks that have to come here with a begging bowl and he is omnipotent and omniscient and he is then you give them doles. Is there any competent to take any decision and he issues scientific method of governing the threats to the States also. This is the pitiable devolutions? No. That is the situation. Mr. position. Why? I will say this is a kind of Ramamurti referred to the Brahminical neo-colo-nialism. With one illustration I will culture regarding our society. The same kind have done. of Brahminical culture prevails in the Central T The Centre seems to be in the Government and in our political system. I do monopolistic possession of all the wealth and not mean this Government alone. Whoever the money generated here. And where do comes to power seems to follow the same they have the money from? Sir, they have no kind of Brahminical culture. They think the control of their own on any State except on States which are far away are Chandalas and small territories like Delhi, Goa and untouchables. That is why. Sir, I would say: Pondicherry. In! fact, all territories belong to Let us be unchained to the past and unfearful the States since majority of the population of the future. Let us take a decision, let us lives in the States. And how about the agree to the Resolution of Mr. Raju. Time is revenue position? I would point out the posi- ripe now. As my friend Shri Swaminathan, tion from my own Sate, Tamil Nadu. has put it, several non-Janta Governments have come to power in various States. This is the opportune time. If we find some hidden From 1974-75 to 1983-84, during the virtues, some sweet things in the Constitution course of ten years, the Centre is going to and still if you still close your eyes, then you collect by way of income tax, customs duty, excise duty and by way of borrowings Rs. will be following the policy of the ostrich of 6310 crores, from Tamil Nadu alone. And burying the head in the sand, and it won't what do we get from the Centre by way of pay. That is why, Sir, I want to finish my Plan grants, non-Plan grants, direct Central speech with a quotation from Dr. Ashok investment during the same period. Tamil Mitra, the Finance Minister of West Bengal, Nadu gets back only Rs. 4,560 crores. What who clearly says: — happens to the balance? The Centre is going "If the Constitution is not amended to to get to the extent of Rs. 1,050 crores. They provide for decentralisation of the financial levy taxes and keep the money sources, public resentment would grow to 414 R.S.—6 flash-point and if there was an explosion, neither 163 Re appointment of [ RAJYA SABHA ] a Parliamentary 164 Committee [Shri Murasoli Maran| the States nor the Centre might be spared."

Thank you, Sir,

165 Re appointment of [ 12 MAY 1978 ] a Parliamentary 166 Committee

167 Re appomtment of [ RAJYA SABHA ] a Parliamentary 168 Committee

169 Re appointment 0/ [12 MAY1978 ] a Parliamentary 170 Committee SHRI N. G. RANGA (Andhra Pra- desh) : Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I am generally in favour of this Resolution. I seek the permission of the House to withdraw one of my amendments, and that is in regard to the suggestion that I have made that the word "legal" should be omitted. I want that amendment to be omitted. But the other amendment, that the report should be made within one year, should remain.

The real thing is, whoever comes lo power does not want federalism; he does not want State autonomy. But when he is in Opposition, he wants more and more autonomy. And so far as our Janata friends are concerned, most of them have been sufferers, I think at the hands of the Union Government in the past. Therefore, at that time they wanted more and more autonomy. So when they were writing their Manifesto, they were whole- heartedly in favour of autonomy. After having got into power and tasted what it is like, in dismissing, as my hon. friend, Mr. Raju, said the other day, by just a stroke of pen, taking advantage of only two words in the Constitution, six State Governments ....

SHRI V. B. RAJU (Andhra Pradesh): Nine. SHRI N. G. RANG A:,... and getting their own people in them, they no longer have any use for State autonomy. But do we want complete autonomy? Nobody has asked for it. But we want more and more autonomy. How much of it? Not as much as the mad Bihar Government has tried to exercise by imposing Hindi and Hindi alone and nothing else, as if it is an independent State living by itself. Not to that extent. Not even to the extent that the West Bengal Government has suggested through the memorandum that has been circulated among our Members by their Chief Minister. Not to that extent. But nevertheless there should be more and more autonomy. As my hon. friend 171 Re appo'mfment oj [RAJYA SABHA] a Parliamentary 172 Committee [Shri N. G. Ranga] manding that legal changes also should be made. But after having ^ from Tamil Nadu has quoted chapter and heard the debate I thought it would '^ verse, there are so many statutory powers be better to drop that amendment which are already there which are and not insist that legal powers must supposed to be enjoyed and exercised by be vested with the Union Government. the State Governments but which are not It seems that the Prime Minister want being allowed in actual practice to be ed the State Governments to believe exercised. in the judgment of the Union Gov My hon. friend has quoted Mr. ernment, and therefore not to insist Jayaprakash Narayan to say that in his upon any legal authority for more and thinking he was all in favour of State more autonomy. As has been said by autonomy. And what is it that Mr. several friends, where is the guarantee Jayaprakash Narayan has suggested? He that the Union Government also would ' has said that the Centre should have be wise? Was it not a fact that the complete power over eco. nomic matters. Union Government, of which Mr. That is a statement which is as vague as Morarji Desai was such a powerful f are his many other statements. It can be Minister, at that time was responsible ' interpreted in different ways, in any way for dismissing any number of State 1 you like. Economic powers: That is ex- Governments which came into exis actly what the Union Government is tence as opposed to the Congress Par exercising, having control over all the ty between 1967 and 1969? That was excise revenue, getting all the money the Union Government and the pre here and afterwards taking as much as sent Home Minister was one of the possible for its own expenditure and victims of that misuse of power as you trying to give something to the State may call it, or overuse of power, by Governments as loans, as subsidies, as the Congress Government here. Twice friendly overtures or friendly gestures, he had to vacate his Chief Minister and so on and so forth. Is that the kind of ship. Once Mr. Jyoti Bosu and his autonomy that my honourable friend colleague, Mr. Mukherjee had also to from Tamil Nadu wants? Yet, he quotes be driven out of office. One of our him. Therefore, we can go on quoting Ministers here today also happened to any number of people, any number of be a Minister at that time and Shri. instances in favour of autonomy or in P. C. Ghosh was pitchforked and favour of federalism or in favour of chosen as a Chief Minister merely be Central power. These things do not cut cause of the mercy of the Union Gov- ^ any ice at all. What is most essential is ernment. Therefore, it is no use say that the political parties must realise— I ing, "Leave it to the Union Govern do not know how soon they would ment and our judgment. Don't you realise—that there is need for more and know that Mr. Morarji Desai is a more State autonomy, and at the same scrupulous man? Therefore, leave it to time there should lae sufficient him." This scrupulous man was also safeguards by way of overall powers a party to all those things in those with the Union Government to ensure the days. This scrupulous man now asks unity of the whole of this nation, known the State Governments to trust the as the Union of India, the Indian Union. tender mercies of the Union Govern ment. How wrong it would be for the Are we sure where we would be . able State Government to depend upon the to draw a line? There is splendid scope Union Government's good graces, and for compromise, splendid scope for give graces which cannot be depended and take and for experiments. That is the upon! They may change from day to reason why in the beginning I was not so night, from night to day. very keen on de- Yet, how could any kind of change ever be brought about? I do not know. It is going to be very difficult, because, We go on talking like this, but when 173 Re appointment of [ 12 MAY 1978 ] a Parliamentary 174 Committee we go over there, we begin to talk in Nadu they say to the Hindi people: You are a different manner. This is how it not going to get any job unless you know happens. Nevertheless progress there Tamil, unless you write in Tamil and unless has been in this country. There was a you learn to read Tamil. You should speak time when some of our friends said to us only in Tamil. What will you do? Take they wanted complete State autonomy the bad example of Bihar. Suppose this is and therefore we were keen on estab followed by other Hindi States. What will be lishing a federal constitution in this the fate of South Indian? Tamils are not the country with only limited powers. only South Indian people. We have That was a time when there were so KannadigaE. Telu-gus, Keralites, Oriyas and many Indian States. We had to can Bengalis who may become victims of such a vass theon to come into the Indian development. To avoid that situation, you Union. Therefore, We offered them a need some overall power in the hands of the bait if you like to call it so. We made Union Government? that offer anyhow with all good inten tions. Once they came in, we found ourselves face to face with many fissi- parous tendencies. These tendencies But then autonomy upto what point in were being strengthened by those industry and economy? Can you leave all the friends on both sides of the Commu money with the State Government making nist Party—Communist Party of India the Union Government dependent upon their and Communist Party (Marxists). At mercies for their maintenance? That also that time they were keen on support cannot work. Therefore, there has to be a ing the Nizam's plea for autonomy compromise. Both have to work in a co- and independence. They were also operative spirit continuously. That would keen to bring about violent revolution. need a tremendous spirit of co-operation both We wanted to overcome that kind of from the Centre and also at the State level. A threat. For that reason at that time we time would come when a better balance swerved in favour of a strong Central might be achieved. How does it come? As a Government and less and less of pro result of the 1977 elections, you have been vincial autonomy. That is how tl'.is pitchforked into power. You are wedded to Constitution has come to be given this village autonomy, district autonomy and particular shape. It is neither unitary State autono-niy. They have formulated nor federal. It partakes of the fea programmes in such a manner that more and tures of both. Is it a good thing? Many more money will be going from the Centre to think it is not good. In practice you the States and from the States to the districts cannot have anything entirely good. and from districts to villages and so on. All Such is life. this money has got to be used and it could be used only in a democratic and decentralised What is the position in America? They have manner. When this system goes on in that their State Governors. Some of them were too way, a time would come—how soon I do conservative like our Hindi faddists here. They not know— were not prepared to treat their blacks liberally when the State Governments will be having and in a democratic manner. Martin Luther sufficient financial viability or self-reliance King was their leader. Then the Federal Gov- which would enable them to turn round to the ernment had to send troops in order to protect Centre and say: Now we are not going to them and enforce the judgment that was given accept your dictation. Centre means what? by the Supreme Court and to see that their Not these Ministers who are only figure- children were sent to schools and prevent that heads. There are departmental heads. kind of untouchability. Are we sure that in India such a situation would not arise? Take the case of Tamil Nadu or Bihar. Suppose in Tamil 175 Ee appointment of [RAJYA SABHA] a Parliamentanj 176 Committee [Shri N. G. Ranga] I Union level. If they wish to gain 1 any kind of reputation at all for honesty in public life, there is the Planning Commission and there is then. Sir, they should be prepared to accept the Finance Ministry. To them they will turn this Re solution. What is it that this Resolu round and say: "You want us to exercise all tion demands? My honourable friend Shri V. these autonomous powers and deliver the B. Raju, was careful enough not to go beyond goods and achieve the results. We would not the terms of this Resolution, not to import any be able to achieve the results unless you stop politi cal passion or political partisanship into dictating to us," This is how the new plan is it and to present it as if he was presenting it likely to work its way in order to deprive the for a seminar of profes sors and political Union Government or force the Union theoreticians. Therefore, he has made it easier Government to discard as much of its power, for my honourable friends, if they are really as much as its supervisory and dictatorial keen about it, to accept the spirit of this power as possible. Sir, merely round a table, Resolution without any partisanship at all. Let or in an argument or in this Parliament, or in them not bother about the various speeches the manner of a seminar or in a debating that have been made from a partisan angle fashion, these things cannot be solved. Why? either from that end or from the communist It is because they have tasted power. My end or from any other side.) honourable friend, Shri Ramamurti, said that absolute power corrupts absolutely. True. I am not interested in the total Indian Absolute power in the hands of the rulers of history. These exponents of the total Indian the Soviet Union corrupted them to such an history who are so much angry about extent that Hungary and Czechoslovakia were Brahminism are themselves Brahmins and, made mincemeat of. They were all- Sir, it was a privilege, it was their privilege independent nations, as far as possible, and to segregate and suppress more than one they were brought into the Warsaw Pact and half of our populaiion and make them when they had been brought into it, they could untouchables and uneducable people and not get out of it at all and their industries had it is also their privilege now to ridicule the to be devetailed into the industrial economy of whole of our cultural past and say that the Soviet Union also. So, there also absolute only the materialist interpretation of history power had corrupted the rulers so much that is the correct I one and, therefore, we must their so-called national sovereignty has turned accept that. But there is this danger. My out to a form of neo-colonialism. So, these honourable friends who are very keen about words can be bandied about according to state autonomy and who are more sincere convenience or for the sake of argument and about it. I mean, in Tamil Nadu and in the they will not serve any useful purpose. It is the South, should also remember one thing that spirit in which we approach this Resolution, we should have as much respect for the other this problem, which matters most and here I people's sentiments as we expect the others to want my honourable friends, of the Janata have towards our feelings and sentiments. Party to remember their own earlier, Now. can we have that much of autonomy as expariences, also to remember their own to, what should I say, encourage, allow and manifesto and try not to appear before the people as hypocritical and as sychophantic as permit large masses of people to hold in every political party has done till now, by ridicule the sacred feelings, the sacred whatever name it has gone, either at the thoughts and the sacred views of equally large State level or at the masses of people, living in their midst or living S in the other States, but anyway with- 177 Re appoJntmeit of [ 12 MAY 1978 ] a Parliamentary 178 Committee in India? Sir there was an instance of this kind ture with a strong unitary bias Centre-State where a procession was taken out in one of relationship of India is necessarily to be our towns with the picture of Lord Rama with viewed in this context of a federal structure a garland of shoes hung over it. Such a thing with a clear bias in favour of a strong Centre. cannot be had as a part of provincial autonomy, because there are people here, Sir, if you read the Preamble to the many people in this country, who venerate Constitution, you will find. Sir, it says: India that Great Man, who hold him as an ideal in shall be a Union of States Section 3 makes it our social life, in our family life. Therefore, I very clear that Parliament has power to form a say that similar things can be said about Islam, new. State by separation of a territory, about Christianity the Christians and the increase the area of any State, diminish the Mohammedans. This is a country where our area of any State, and so on. Sir, thisf clearly social life is so very complex. Our shows that the total approach of the Indian communities are too many, living in different Constitution, and the founder Dr. Ambedkar, ways and having different cultures -ind was right, in framing such a Constitution, different ways of approach to God or namely, the approach is that India is one and Godlessness. So there is much greater need for one country. Sir, there are elements in our our people to have patience \>n.h each other country also who believe that India is not one than is the case with other people. That is nation, Vedas were quoted to ridicule the why, federalism is much more important, local concept of one nation. They relied upon autonomy is very much more important than Vedas itself and said that India is a big in any other country in any part of the world, continent. India is unitary. Our concept is not and under such circumstances it behoves the that we are different nationalities. Our concept Janata Government, the present Government, is not that we want disintegration of this to accept this Resolution. country. Our concept is not that anybody has the right to secede, as also those living on the SHRI S. W. DHABE (Maharashtra): Mr. norther and eastern borders of this land. When Vice-JChairman, Sir, the Resolution the DMK Government was dismissed, it was contemplates the appointment of a discussed in the House, the report showed that Parliamentary Committee for a very important one oC subject. The subject is such that ever since the the papers wrote: ...... premier of Constitution of India came into force there has Tamil Nadu a separate flag for Tamil Nadu", been a continuous debate on constitutional and so on. The idea was not merely to have provisions governing relations between the only a discussion on the Centre-State relations Centre and States. Various interpretations but' to alter the Constitution and to completely have been put on the Centre-State relations, demolish its importance and basic features. In and different interpretations have been given this connection, a very interesting document by different jurists to different provisions has been circulated by the Chief Minister of Some describe it as "a federation with a strong West Bengal. He does not want it only for the centralising tendency". Accoring to the sake of discussion. Having come to power in Administrative Reforms Commission, "the the particular State, they want more economic Constitutional edifice of India is neither power and complete autonomy probably to do unitary nor federal in the strict sense of the whatever they want taking Into consideration term". The judgment of the Supreme Court in their relations and close affinity of thinking the State of West Bengal versus Union of across the border. They have made^^four India reinforces the view that the Constitution suggestions. I would like to read from the of India establishes a federal struc- document circulated by the Chief Minister of 179 Re appointment of [RAJYA SABHA] a Parliamentary 180 Committee [Shri S. W. Dhabe] Delhi? The whole document smacks of a separate State thinking. That is what they West Bengal and I do not think that is the want to aim at. That is what the Tamil Nadu intention of the resolution moved by the hon. people wanted. I have got a demand in my Mover. The first thing is that the word 'Union' area regarding Maha Vidarbha State. Will it should be deleted. Then the Central Reserve be a separate State or will it have a separate Police, the Border Security Force, etc. should nationality? If some people want Goa as a be dispensed with. There should be no separate State, will it have a separate security forces under the Centre. Then they nationality? Madhya Pradesh is a very have stated that there should be Concurrent unweildy State. Chatisgarh people want a List. The most important recommendation JS separate State. Will it be new nationality? contained in paragraph 12. Their demand is Chatisgarh and Maha Vidarbha can form one that IAS and IPS services should be abolished. State with Nagpur as its capital. Will it I quote; acquire a new nationality. Demand for separate Telengana was there. If it had been "All-India services like the IAS, the IPS, formed, would it have separate nationality? etc., whose officers are posted to the States, Therefore, we have to give a very serious but remain under the supervision and thought to the Centre-State relations and disciplinary control Of the Central nothing should be done which will give an Government, must abolished." impression within the country or to anybody else that we are disintegrating. Then it goes on to say that Articles 356 and Decentralisation does not mean disintegration. 357 which we all know were abused To talk of Vedas and to quote other sometimes, should also be deleted. Sir, the authorities is ridiculous. In Eastern Europe, wording is very important. I quote: Communists acquired power by conquering "Articles 356 and 357 which enable the Poland and Czechoslovakia. President to dissolve a State Government or its Assembly or both should be deleted. In the Sir, the real question is that some case of a constitution breakdown in a State, adjustment is necesary. The problems are, no provision must be made for the democratic doubt, there. I entirely agree with what is step of holding election and installing a new stated in the Resolution, namely, that there Government as in the case of the Centre." should be a review of the Centre-State relations from time to time. Some of the It is very difficult to understand how the problems are there, just like the Maharashtra Assembly can decide to dissolve itself. The Employment Guarantee whole concept of the Indian Constitution is Bill. What right has the Centre got different. I agree with my friend, Mr. to withhold assent for days together? Bagaitkar. You only talk about the powers of There is no time-limit. Why should the States because you have come into power not a State have the right to go ahead and because the Constitution has provided with a programme, if it wants to have that. But the Panchayats are not even it? Simply because the other States mentioned in the Constitution. If you want cannot do it, can the assent by with decentralisation of power, then has Bengal a held? Can we not redraft article 201 different culture or a different nationality? so as to speed up the economic deve Why the Bengali people should not be given lopment in order to improve the living appointments in Uttar Pradesh? They want standards of the people of this abolition of- services. Why can a man from coimtry? Tamil Nadu not serve in What about article 130 of the Constitution? The Maharashtra Assembly 181 Re appointment oj [ 12 MAY 1978 ] a Parliamentary 182 Committee unanimously passed a resolution Sir, the most important thing that confronts demanding a Bench of the High Court at us today is to see how we can improve the Aurangabad and Poona. If the living standards of the masses of this permission of the Central Government is country. On the one hand we talk of the unity needed for it, why should it not be given? of the working class of the entire world, but on Why should we not have decentralisation the other land we do not want to talk df the for disposal of cases? Why should sUch a unity of 1-jpdia as one country. Sir, the lengthy procedure be followed? Article entire problem before Us today is how to 130 provides that the Supreme Court shall improve the living standards of the people of sit in Delhi and at other places if it chooses. this country, whose wages are very low The There is a unanimous demand that the real fight in India today is betweer haves and Supreme Court should not sit in an ivory have-nots, the rich anc the poor. The tower in Delhi alone but have Benches all inter-dependence o the States today is so over the country for the disposal of cases. In much that I want wheat in the South, j cannot Karnataka High Court alone 10,000 land ge it except from the north because their is no cases are pending for a very long time. wheat produced in the South Therefore, for The demand for a Bench at Meerut and the purposes of speed; economic growth and some other places is there. Why speedily improv ing the standards of our should Article 130 and other Artfcles not be people if an adjustment is necessary in the amended and a provision for separate Con stitution, certainly a dialogue shoul Benches at different places made therein. take place. To deny a dialogue, wil not be a There is also demand for a session of correct approach. There ai the Directive Parliament in the South. There are also principles in the Cor stitution, which require various other matters which are very to be imple mented. If any amendments in important and should be considered. th Constitution are necessary those shoul be made. When a committee wappointed Sir, Part XI pf the Constitution deals with under the Chairmanship (Shri Swaran Singh, the relations between the Union and the it recommende some changes but said that States. Article 249 refers to the power of basical: India is a unitary country, which mu Parliament to legislate with respect to a have a strong Centre. Both canni be there, matter in the State List in the national and if we make only Defenc Communications interest. Article 249 provides that if the and External Affai —only three subjects—for Council of State declares by a two-thirds the Centr I am sure India which became unite majority to legislate in respect of any matter after the freedom struggle, will in the State List in the national interest, it can disintegrated into many States. Their fore, pass such a legislation. these fissiparous tendencii should not be There are also provisions like Article 356 in encouraged. It shou be one country for the Constitution, to which I want to make purposes of econi mic upliftment of the reference at this stage, also need a second people, speedy justice and for efficient look. But if you stretch the idea to such an admnistration. It is necessary that should extent and say that there are separate be one country. nationalities and that this is a federation of sovereign States and that idea has to he Some ridiculed that talk of natior integration. implemented, then I would say that it What is national integi tion? Is it not a reality completely gets counter to the wishes Of the today tl Hindu-Muslim problems are s^ there? founding fathers of the Constitution and to is it not a reality that peo] I . from one area to our interests. In that case, we will have to call another look uj a session of the Constituent Assembly for completely changing the basic features of the Constitution. 183 Re appointment of [ RAJYA SABHA ] a Parliamentary 184 Committee [Shri S. W. Dhabe] all that. The ruling party muit have a plan of it which has been discussed on two days, i was each other with suspicion? Even the very sorry on the Prime Minister's intervention Scheduled Castes and the caste Hindus are in the earlier stage when he opposed it. still to be assimilated. One great Communist Anyhow, it happens. I do not criticise him. leader in my State said that because of Therefore, this is the submis-' sion I can Hinduism, communism is not possible in •our make... country. In the Hindu way 0^ life, communism may not succeed in our country. SHRI N. G. RANGA: Let us go on till 5.15. But to say that integration problem is not there and it is purely an economic and social SHRI V. B. RAJU: We cannot, under the problem, is not correct. That is the problem of time limit. the gocially-back-ward people. Therefore, we must have national integration. We have to SHRI DINESH GOSWAMI (Assam): Some consider, at the same time, the economic, of Us have given the names and would like to cultural and social problems. Both these participate. So, I would request that we should aspects are not contradTc-tory; they are continue the debate. The Half-an-Hour complementary to each other. Therefore, I Discussion can be taken up on Monday. would say that it is a sad day for India if those THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI SHYAM LAL with fissiparous tendencies come to power. If YADAV): There are large number of Members they come to power, would liquidate the who have given their names, and there are States, what to say of autonomy. Let them parties also from which not even a single come to power; that is a different matter, but Member could speak. And there is insistence that while coming to power, if they say that we are at least «ne Member from each party may be separate nationalities, it would be wrong. The allowed to attitude of the Prime Minister when he said speak. that there should be no dialogue, ie not correct. I fully endorse the resolution of Mr. Raju that some Corrjnittee should be appointed to review it and discuss it in order to help to integrate the forces and to strengthen a democratic unity of our country. SHRI L. R. NAIK (Kar-nataka): Thank you. Somebody must speak from Karn^-taka. SHRI V. B RAJU: Mr. Vice-^Chair-man. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI SHYAM Sir, this Resolution is conditioned by time, LAL YADAV): I am trying to accommodate. that is, with the clocTs striking five, this But there are some parties which have not got Resolution will fee talked out and nothing a chance. We have to accommodate them. Let will be left, because the session adjourns on us hear Shrimati Kaur. the 18th. Now. it is a non-party Resolution, in fact, with a purpose and a positive approach. SHRI DINESH SINGH (Uttar Pradesh): If all parties agree, I would propose a closure. Can it not be extended? It is not for merely debating the issue. The Rajya Sabha is a responsible House and it THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE must do something very concrete. I am only MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI appealing to the ruling party to consider this DHANIK LAL MANDAL): Sir, 'it will not be because I do not want to make it a partisan possible for us to continue the debate after 5 issue, divide the House and stand on P.M. If you want to continue it on some other formalities and 185 Re apvointment of [12 MAY 1978] a Parliamentary 186 Committee day, we have no objection, but not today. there are some regions who would like to emphasise their views. I hope the hon. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI SHYAM Minister will agree to it. LAL YADAV): The Session is not going to be extended. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI SHYAM LAL YADAV): I think hon. SHRI DINESH SINGH: Sir, if you are not Members must be knowing that we cannot extending the time, you must decide now on extend the time. There is another item to be the point that has been made about closure. taken up at 5 P.M. Let us hear as many You must say 'Yes' or 'No'. Members as possible. Let us hear Madam Kaur. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI SHYAM LAL YADAV): He has appealed to all the SHRI DINESH GOSWAMI: I do not parties. think there is any bar under the rules to defer SHRI V. B. RAJU: Sir, I moved for the half-an-hour discussion till the next day. closure but I paraphrased it by saying that let I do not think there is any bar under the there not be a division on that point. Let all rules. the parties in the House agree and act in a constructive way. It is not merely a tactical THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI approach. SHYAM LAL YADAV); That is the discretion of the Chair. Shrimati Rajinder (Interruptions) Kaur.

SHRI SUNDER SINGH BHANDARI: SHRIMATI RAJINDER KAUR There should be a full discussion on the (Punjab): Sir, those who have spoken on the subject. The discussion is going on. Resolution are unanimous that some type of decentralisation is a must. There is no basic SHRI V. B. RAJU; Now, what shall we difference on the prinqiplle. The do? 'differences are only peripheral. Decentralisation of powers is a necessary SHRJ MULKA GOVINDA REDDY pre-requisite to speedy national economic (Kamataka): Conclusion is necessary. development and political stability. Ours is a vast coun. try with diverse religions, SHRI V. B. RAJU: It will only be talked cultures, languages, races climates etc. It out. is a huge nation with multifarious nation- alities. Therefore, the founding father; of SHRI HAREKRUSHNA MALLICK the Constitution never meant tc centralise (Orissa): Let there be a full discussion in the the powers in New Delh but the powers House. If we get divided on this, the purpose were to be shared b; the States too. No will be lost. Let there be a full discussion. Let doubt, under thi Constitution, they use^ all the parties be satisfied. I would appeal to the word 'Union of States', but it the Chair. certainl: does not mean 'unity of States'. Signi fican^y the word 'federation' wa SHRI DINESH GOSWAMI; Sir, if the omitted from the text of the Consti tution debate is not going to be extended and if it is Dr. Ambedkar explaining th preference going to be talked out at least, let the for the word 'Union' state in the Constituent discussion be extended upto 6 P.M. So that Assembly that th drafting committee Members who want to express their views wanted to mal it clear that though India would be able to do so. This is a matter in was to 1 a federation, the federation was which not only parties are interested, but ni the result of an agreement betwei the regions are also interested and States to join in a federation. Tl federation was not the result of I agreement. Therefore the States ha 187 Re appointment of [RAJYA SABHA] a Parliamentary 188 Committee [Shrimati Rajinder Kaur] tent that Centre should not have a separate secretariat. Everything might be done through no right to secede from it. The federation is a the States though, he pointed out, genuine union because it is indestructible. Dr. practical difficulties. The first step towards Ambedkar clarified that India had avoided the decentralisation should be in the financial rigidities of a classical federation by devising sphere. No decentralisation of power is a Constitution which was intended to provide possible without the decentralisation of for a federal Government in normal times and financial power. Finances provide the back for a unitary Government in times of and sinews of Government. Indeed no Gov- emergency. Thirty-year rule by one party ernment can carry out its responsibilities distorted 'union' character of the Constitution without finances and the degree with which it and turned it into a more or less unitary type. meets its obligations, and the measure of Centralised Five-Year Plans gave added scope success in satisfying the expectation of its for the concentration of power at the Centre. people largely depends on the adequacy of its Our worthy Prime Minister declared only financial resources. The integrity of the yesterday that for the first time in the history financial system must be tested by double of independent India States have been criteria. On the one hand it must be adequate consulted on the first year of the rolling Draft and on the other it must be independent. Plan. Otherwise, States used to have no say in the developmental plans. The residual powers left with the Centre in the Constitution were Adequate results of the developmental plan made maximum use of. The States are iDft is the responsibility of the States, while money with very little revenue resources. A major is controlled by the Centre. In the Indian part of the taxes comes to the Centre and the public finances system Staffs are considerably States have to come to the Centre with a dependent on the Union Government for begging bowl. Punjab is demanding financial finances. Accordingly there is an important autonomy for the States, i.e. decentralisation flow of funds from the Centre to States. The of the financial powers. Therefore, I will deal total resources transferred from the Cen're to only with the financial autonomy for the the States increased from Rs. 1413 crores in States. I personally, however, feel that any the First Plan to Rs. 2869 crores in the Second centralisation of power gives tem-tation and is Plan and 56 crores in the Third Plan and Rs. likely to lead to dictatorial trends as have been 9780 croreg in the Fourth Plan. These prove in the past. If we wish to safeguard our transfers formed 41.1 per cent of the States democracy from the emergence of any total expenditure in the First Plan, 48.5 per dictatorship, power—political and cent in the Second Plan, 52.2 per cent in the economic—has to be decentralised to the gram Third Plan and 56.1 per cent in the Fourth panchayat level. The Janata Party is Plan. In recent years, the importance of committed to the principle of decentralisation, transfer from the Union Government to the The only question that remains to be settle^ is States has further increased. The States are left how and the extent to which decentralisation with little resources to carry out their has to be implemented. Its need was stressed development programmes. The States cannot by Mahatma Gandhi, Shri Jayaprakash mobilise additional resources because Narayan and our worthy President, Shri mobilisation of additional resources has led to Neelam Sanjiva Reddy. Even our worthy violent political reaction in the masses. The Prime Minister said the other day in the House Central Government collects Rs. 10,000 crores t^at he was of the opinion that aecentralisation as taxes and 22 per cent of the taxes is given should go to the ex- back to the States, with the result that the States cannot take up 189 Re appointment of [ 12 MAY 1978 ] a Parliamentary 190 Committee even basic developmental projects like I for consumer goods. Punjab sends I the raw education, housing, sanitation, etc., while the materials and gets back the finished products. Centre can afford to squander away like they Leaving aside the small-scale industries, very have done in the air-conditioned market in little industrial units have been allotted to Cannaught Place in New Delhi. Punjab.

Decen ralisation of financial resources is a With all this, the total drainage of money panacea for solving all developmental outside the State is Rs. 425 crores per annum. problems of the States. The Constitution has This lopsided growth of the economy is envisaged transfer of resources from the responsible for Punjab slipping to the third Centre to the States on the recommendations position from its first position iii the per capita of the Finance Commission. The Finance income. Commission now controls only 30 per cent "What Punjab needs is freedom to develop of the resources and the rest goes to Discre- and freedom to progress. If Punjab is allowed tionary plan and Non-Plan Grants and Loans. to progress freely in the field of industry, I The growing dependence of the States on the can assura this House that within a calculated Centre has reduced them to mere District period, Punjab will be second to none in Boards industrial progress as compared I0 which cannot do any thing without the international standards. Once delivering a consent and the sweet will of the Centre. lecture in a Gurudwara at Madras Shri C- Rajagopalachari said: "If there would have Punjab feels that it has been treated like a been free enterprise, the first man to land on colony by the Centre in the last 30 years. It the moon would have been a Sikh". Other has not been allowed to develop according to States must be having their own problems. A its own initiative and programmes. Freedom strong, economically-developed border State of work has been allowed only in agriculture of Punjab would certainly be an asset to the and its allied spheres and Punj'ab ranks first country. Economically strong States 5.00 p.m. in the fields of agriculture, poultry and dairy. mean a strong country. Strong States can Punjab has not been allowed to develop in the never meant a weak centre. The unity of the field of industry. Punjab's contribution to the country has to be maintained by the defence national food basket is the highest, while forces and not by the Centre keeping a lion's Punjab's contribution to the national shares of taxes and distributing it at its own industrial kitty is the lowest. Even discretion. agriculture-based industries have not been set SHRI L. R NAIK: May I know whether the up in Punjab. Punjab has 1-5 per cent of the hon'ble Member can read out a written total land, while it uses 27 per cent of the speech? total production of tractors. But there is no tractor factory there. Punjab is the first State SHRIMATI RAJINDER KAUR; Mr. Vice- to use harvest combines. Punjab produces Chairman, Sir, I am speaking for the first over a million bales of cotton, but has no time. Sir^ the clear example is that of Jammu textile industry worth the name. The sugar and Kashmir which had its own Constitution mills in the State hardly consumes 15 to 18 its own flag, ' its own national anthem, its per cent of the total cane output, as against 'own Prime Minister and full internal the national average of 33 per cent. autonomy. When the Central Government wanted to arrest the Prime Minister of Punjab's development in agriculture Jammu and Kashmir, not a single shot was has served as a ready market fired and the Prime Minister was immediately arrested. 19l Half-an.hour [ RAJYA SABHA ] Discussion 192

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI for giving me the opportunity to raise half- SHYAM LAL YADAV): please conclude. an-hour discussion on points arising out of the answer given to Question No. 67. The SHRIMATI RAJINDER KAUR; I am question is a very simple one. The question finishing in a minute. Moreover, in India has been raised. nobody thinks of demanding u division of fhe Army. Moreover, whatever power the States "(a) whether the Southern States have have or will have will only be through the urged upon the Central Government for an Constitution which can be conveniently early to" the Cauvery waters issues; and amended if ever there is a slight danger to the unity and integrity of the nation. If our (b) if so, in what manner Government worthy Prime Minister does not feel that a propose to settle the issue to the satisfaction Parliamentary Committee should not be set of the concerned State Governments?" up to discuss the issue of decentralisation of power, some other ways can be found as a Sir, this settlement of the Cauvery step forward towards decentralisation. Decen- waters among the three Southern tralisation is need of the time. The earliest States, namely, Karnataka, Tamil possible it is achieved the better It is for the Nadu and Kerala, has been prolong country's economic development as a whole ing for a long time. In the answer, and for the political stability of the country as the hon'ble Minister has been pleased the States will not tolerate the economic to say that: _ exploitation by the Centre |or long. Thank you. "An understanding amongst the concerned States, namely, Karnataka, Kerala and Tiamil THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI SHYAM Nadu with regard to the use and development LAL YADAV): We now pass on to the next of Cauvery waters was reached at an inter- item half-an-hour discussion. State meeting held by the Union Minister of Agriculture and Irrigation in August, 1976." ''SHRI BHUPESH GtJPTA: Sir, before yOu take up the half-an-hour discussion I have to Sir, the first sentence itself I want to make a submission. I have given notice of contest. half-an-hour discussion on the nuclear power pack. Two notices have been given. I hope SHRI L. R. NAIK (Karnataka): Sir, on a some time next week time will be found to point of order. In the Rules of Procedure and discuss it. This arises specially after the Conduct of Business in the House, the Chair Prime Minister's remarks here during the has sufficient power to adjust the com- Question Hdiii. mencement of discussion regarding certain items. So the hon'ble Member can commence after some time. Meanwhile let the Resolution HALF-AN-HOUR DISCUSSION that has been moved be completed. You have ample powers, Sir. On points arising out of the answer given in the Rajya Sabha on the 26th April, 19'J8, to THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI SHYAM Starred Question 67 regarding Cauvery LAL YADAV); Kindly take your seat. Now Waters issue. that the discussion has been taken over, I think there is no time left. In this House the non- SHRI ERA SEZHIYAN (Tamil official business terminates at five O'clock and Nadu): Sir, I thank you very much the time is not extended.