The Association for Diplomatic Studies and Training Foreign Affairs Oral History Project
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The Association for Diplomatic Studies and Training Foreign Affairs Oral History Project AMBASSADOR JAMES R. LILLEY Interviewed by: Charles Stuart Kennedy Initial interview date: May 21, 1998 Copyright 2016 ADST TABLE OF CONTENTS Background Born and raised in China of American parents Japanese invasion and occupation U.S. schooling U.S. Merchant Marine, World War II Army Specialized Training Reserve Program Yale University China “Third Force” Hong Kong University Columbia University Japan late 1950s-1958 China intelligence objectives Philippines - U.S. Embassy 1958-1961 Chinese Affairs Taiwan Straits Crisis - 1958 “The Ugly American” Philippine leaders Operations Cambodia 1961-1964 China affairs Sihanouk “Dap Chhuon Affair” Thailand 1964-1965 China operation Laos 1965-1968 Ted Shackley 1 Ho Chi Minh Trail Prime Minister Souvanna Phouma Vietnam War Personalities Russians Ambassador Sullivan U.S. military Harriman MACV Ho Chi Minh Trail Inflated statistics Air strikes TACAN North Vietnamese in Laos Plaine de Jarres Meo Jane Fonda Hong Kong 1968-1970 “China watching” Press reporting Chinese communists British Chinese revolution Defectors Mao Zedong Information sources Vietnam War and China Taiwan State Department - China Desk 1970-1971 National Intelligence Survey Memorandums [NISMs] U.S.-China relations Chinese-Soviet relationship Kissinger China visit Marshall Green Taiwan National War College 1971-1972 State Department - Romanian Language Training 1972 Beijing, China - U.S. Liaison Office - “Declared CIA Officer” 1973-1975 Environment George Bush Information sources 2 Ambassador David Bruce Deng Xiao-ping “Group of Four” National Intelligence Officer for China 1975-1978 Taiwan Straits Crisis Duties Chinese-Soviet relations U.S. military contacts China-Vietnam relations President Carter Deng Xiao-ping Arms sales to China Normalization of relations Richard Holbrooke Tibet Hong Kong Chinese tactics George Bush Oil Gang of Four China analysts Stansfield Turner Korea Congress Taiwan independence Reagan and Taiwan Dallas, Texas - Hung Oil Company 1979-1981 Reagan-Bush campaign National Security Council 1981-1982 Responsibilities China-Taiwan Arms sales PRC and White House Taiwan - American Institute in Taiwan [AIT] - Director 1982-1984 “August Communiqué” Taiwan arms sales Taiwan “six assurances” China negotiations Secretary of State Shultz Taiwan-China “open door” Taiwan independence Taiwan-U.S. relations 3 Alaska oil Students Reagan China policy Otis Elevator Company 1984-1985 State Department - East Asian Affairs - Deputy Assistant 1985-1986 Secretary New Zealand Nuclear ship visits Soviet navy China relations Fishing boats Micronesia Compact Asia Development Bank South Korea - Ambassador 1986-1989 Paul Wolfowitz North Korea South Korean government Violence U.S. military presence Korean military Gaston Sigur Democratization President Chun Personalities Student demonstrations Kim Dae Jung Kim Yong Sam No Tae Wu Elections Olympic Games North Korea “GSP” trade DMZ Kim Jong II Economy Winston Lord China - Ambassador 1989-1991 U.S. naval visit Winston Lord Military relationship Human rights Fang Lizhi 4 Gorbachev-Deng Xiao-ping visit Peter Tomsen “May 4 Movement” Corruption Students Tiananmen Square Leadership Importance of “order” Evacuation of U.S. citizens Anti-foreign activity Foreign press U.S. response to Tiananmen Square U.S. sanctions Brent Scowcroft visit Loan issue Henry Kissinger Nixon visit Aircraft sales Satellites U.S. commercial interests Students to U.S. “Desert Storm” Tibet Congressional interest INTERVIEW Q: Today is May 21, 1998. This is an interview with Ambassador James R. Lilley. It is being done on behalf of the Association for Diplomatic Studies and Training. I am Charles Stuart Kennedy. To start off, Jim, would you tell me when and where you were born and something about your family? LILLEY: I was born on January 15, 1928, in Tsingtao, China. In modern Chinese, Romanized script it is written as "Qingdao." Q: Where is Tsingtao in China? LILLEY: It is in Shandong Province. Q: That is the peninsula... LILLEY: Which juts out between the Yellow Sea and Po Hai, or the Gulf of Chihli, 5 opposite Japan. That is the Shandong Peninsula, and Tsingtao is on the southern side of it. Tsingtao is the best deep water port in China. Q: Why were you born there? LILLEY: Well, my father worked for what used to be called the Standard-Vacuum Oil Company [also known as "Stanvac"]. In Chinese it's called "Mei Fu Yang Hang." My father went out to China about 1916 from the company headquarters at 26 Broadway in New York City. Of course, this company was originally broken off from John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil Company. This was the Standard-Vacuum Oil Company, which was jointly owned by Standard Oil Company of New Jersey and Standard Oil Company of New York. The company used to send out young men called "Classmen" in groups to China. Maybe they would be sent out in groups of 10 or 20 at a time. These young men would then fan out all over China. They would be trained to speak, read, and write Chinese for about a year. Then they would be sent to work at an "up country" post. As John D. Rockefeller used to convey to these young men: "I want you to sell all of the oil that's sold in your district." Shell Oil Company and Texaco Oil Company were the big competitors of Standard-Vacuum at that time. Anyway, my father came out to China around 1916 as a young man. The rule was that "classmen" couldn't marry during their first tour of duty in China, a tour of five years. Then my father came back to the U.S. and married my mother, who was from New York State. He took her back to China. They had four children: three born in China and one in Tuxedo Park, New York. I was the youngest of the four children. Q: How long were you in China after you were born? LILLEY: I was in China more or less continuously, from 1928 to October, 1940, when all American "dependents" were evacuated from China. I was evacuated from Shanghai, where I was in school. I also came back to the U.S. in 1930. Every three to five years my parents got six months' leave. In 1935 we returned to the U.S. for six months. In 1938 we went back to the U.S. and stayed there from 1938 to 1939, returning to China in late 1939. So I can say that I lived in China almost continuously from the time I was born to when I was 12 years old. During the period from 1928 to 1940 I spent a total of two years in the United States. During this period, then, I spent roughly 10 years in China. Q: Can you tell me something of what it was to be a young American boy living in China at that time? Could you describe your life in China? LILLEY: It was a privileged existence. Tsingtao, where my father was posted for 10 years, was a beautiful port city, built by the Germans. It was then expanded on by the Japanese, with these old, German-type buildings that often looked as if they came right out of Bavaria. The Germans leased Tsingtao from China in 1898, and the Japanese took 6 over the German leased territory in 1914, at the beginning of World War I. The Japanese constructed their type of buildings in Tsingtao, which was a city built on hills, with numerous wide beaches. It was a beautiful place. Foreign countries did not have a "concession" there, as they did in Tientsin or the International Settlement in Shanghai. The foreigners just lived well in Tsingtao. It was a nice posting. The U.S. Navy used to come up to Tsingtao from the Philippines every summer. The USS AUGUSTA, a light cruiser, and then the USS CANOPUS, a submarine tender, would come up. These two ships would go up to Chefoo (Yent'ai) on the North coast of the Shandong Peninsula, then come down to Tsingtao and, from there, return to the Philippines. Q: During this time were you learning Chinese? LILLEY: We didn't learn Chinese the way that the foreign missionaries learned it. We didn't live with the Chinese. We lived in a foreign enclave and attended American schools, where we were taught in English. However, we picked up "street Chinese" from the servants and people in town. We learned how to swear, how to talk, and how to make our way around. It was very primitive Chinese. After I returned to the U.S., I had to begin again and learn to speak Chinese properly. Q: During the 1930s what were the events that affected all of you? I can't remember when the Japanese moved into China, but I recall that it was during the 1930s. LILLEY: Well, let me "walk that process through." The status of Tsingtao was one of the "21 Demands" which the Japanese presented to China in December, 1915. The Japanese wanted to take over the German concession in Tsingtao during World War I. The "21 Demands" led to a furor of Chinese nationalistic demonstrations. The Japanese were talked out of pressing these "demands" by other foreign countries, and eventually they "backed off." However, the Japanese maintained Tsingtao as a "sphere of influence" after the Germans were forced to give it up formally at the end of World War I. The Japanese had lots of businessmen there in Tsingtao. Then the Japanese moved into Manchuria in 1931. In 1937 they moved into China proper. Up until 1937 Tsingtao was dominated by European Caucasians. The British were the strongest, but there were also the French, the Belgians, and the Dutch. The Germans had lost their settlements in China as a result of World War I.