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Monday Volume 548 9 July 2012 No. 28

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES ()

Monday 9 July 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT

MEMBERS OF THE CABINET

(FORMED BY THE RT HON.,MP,MAY 2010)

DEPARTMENTS OF STATE AND MINISTERS PRIME MINISTER,FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt Hon. David Cameron, MP DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL—The Rt Hon. , MP FIRST SECRETARY OF STATE AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS—The Rt Hon. , MP CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt Hon. George Osborne, MP LORD CHANCELLOR AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR JUSTICE—The Rt Hon. , QC, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT AND MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE—The Rt Hon. Philip Hammond, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR BUSINESS,INNOVATION AND SKILLS—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WORK AND PENSIONS—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—The Rt Hon. Edward Davey, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR HEALTH—The Rt Hon. Andrew Lansley, CBE, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EDUCATION—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT—The Rt Hon. Eric Pickles, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR TRANSPORT—The Rt Hon. Justine Greening, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ENVIRONMENT,FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—The Rt Hon. Andrew Mitchell, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR NORTHERN IRELAND—The Rt Hon. Owen Paterson, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR —The Rt Hon. Michael Moore, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WALES—The Rt Hon. Cheryl Gillan, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR CULTURE,OLYMPICS,MEDIA AND SPORT—The Rt Hon. , MP CHIEF SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY—The Rt Hon. Danny Alexander, MP LEADER OF THE AND CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER—The Rt Hon. Lord Strathclyde MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO—The Rt Hon. Baroness Warsi

DEPARTMENTS OF STATE AND MINISTERS Business, Innovation and Skills— SECRETARY OF STATE AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE—The Rt Hon. Vince Cable, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. , MP (Minister for Universities and Science) John Hayes, MP (Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning) § Mark Prisk, MP The Rt Hon. , MP § Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint (Minister for Trade and Investment) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Norman Lamb, MP Edward Vaizey, MP § Baroness Wilcox Cabinet Office— MINISTER FOR THE CABINET OFFICE AND PAYMASTER GENERAL—The Rt Hon. , MP MINISTER OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Oliver Letwin, MP PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARIES— Mark Harper, MP , MP Communities and Local Government— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Eric Pickles, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. Greg Clark, MP § The Rt Hon. , MP (Minister for Housing and Local Government) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Andrew Stunell, OBE, MP Robert Neill, MP Baroness Hanham, CBE ii HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT—cont.

Culture, Media and Sport— SECRETARY OF STATE FOR CULTURE,OLYMPICS,MEDIA AND SPORT—The Rt Hon. Jeremy Hunt, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— John Penrose, MP Hugh Robertson, MP (Minister for Sport and the Olympics) Edward Vaizey, MP § Defence— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Philip Hammond, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Nick Harvey, MP (Minister for the Armed Forces) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Gerald Howarth, MP The Rt Hon. Andrew Robathan, MP Peter Luff, MP Lord Astor of Hever, DL Duchy of Lancaster— LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER—The Rt Hon. Lord Strathclyde Education— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Michael Gove, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— Sarah Teather, MP Nick Gibb, MP John Hayes, MP (Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Tim Loughton, MP Lord Hill of Oareford Energy and Climate Change— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Edward Davey, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— , MP Gregory Barker, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Lord Marland Environment, Food and Rural Affairs— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Caroline Spelman, MP MINISTER OF STATE— The Rt Hon. James Paice, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Richard Benyon, MP Lord Taylor of Holbeach, CBE Foreign and Commonwealth Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. William Hague, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— Jeremy Browne, MP The Rt Hon. David Lidington, MP (Minister for Europe) The Rt Hon. Lord Howell of Guildford PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Henry Bellingham, MP , MP Government Equalities Office— MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—The Rt Hon. Theresa May, MP § MINISTER FOR EQUALITIES—Lynne Featherstone, MP § Health— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Andrew Lansley, CBE, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— , MP Simon Burns, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— , MP Earl Howe — SECRETARY OF STATE AND MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—The Rt Hon. Theresa May, MP § MINISTERS OF STATE— , MP (Minister for Immigration) The Rt Hon. Nick Herbert, MP ( and Criminal Justice) § Lord Henley (Minister for Crime Prevention and Antisocial Behaviour Reduction) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Lynne Featherstone, MP (Minister for Equalities) § James Brokenshire, MP HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT—cont. iii

International Development— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Andrew Mitchell, MP MINISTER OF STATE—The Rt Hon. , MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Stephen O’Brien, MP Justice— LORD CHANCELLOR AND SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Kenneth Clarke, QC, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. Lord McNally The Rt Hon. Nick Herbert, MP (Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Crispin Blunt, MP , MP Law Officers— ATTORNEY-GENERAL—The Rt Hon. , QC, MP SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Edward Garnier, QC, MP ADVOCATE-GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt Hon. Lord Wallace of Tankerness, QC Leader of the House of Commons— LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS AND LORD PRIVY SEAL—The Rt Hon. Sir George Young, MP PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY—David Heath, CBE, MP Northern Ireland— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Owen Paterson, MP MINISTER OF STATE— The Rt Hon. , MP Privy Council Office— DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL—The Rt Hon. Nick Clegg, MP Scotland Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Michael Moore, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. David Mundell, MP Transport— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Justine Greening, MP MINISTER OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Theresa Villiers, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— , MP Mike Penning, MP Treasury— PRIME MINISTER,FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt Hon. David Cameron, MP CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt Hon. George Osborne, MP CHIEF SECRETARY—The Rt Hon. Danny Alexander, MP FINANCIAL SECRETARY—Mark Hoban, MP EXCHEQUER SECRETARY—David Gauke, MP ECONOMIC SECRETARY—Chloe Smith, MP COMMERCIAL SECRETARY—Lord Sassoon PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY—The Rt Hon. Patrick McLoughlin, MP LORDS COMMISSIONERS— Michael Fabricant, MP Angela Watkinson, MP Jeremy Wright, MP Brooks Newmark, MP James Duddridge, MP ASSISTANT WHIPS— Philip Dunne, MP Stephen Crabb, MP Robert Goodwill, MP Shailesh Vara, MP Bill Wiggin, MP Mark Hunter, MP , MP , MP iv HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT—cont.

Wales Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Cheryl Gillan, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—David Jones, MP Work and Pensions— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Iain Duncan Smith, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. Chris Grayling, MP , MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Maria Miller, MP Lord Freud Her Majesty’s Household— LORD CHAMBERLAIN—The Rt Hon. Earl Peel, GCVO, DL LORD STEWARD—The Earl of Dalhousie MASTER OF THE HORSE—Lord Vestey, KCVO TREASURER—The Rt Hon. John Randall, MP COMPTROLLER—The Rt Hon. Alistair Carmichael, MP VICE-CHAMBERLAIN—The Rt Hon. Mark Francois, MP CAPTAIN OF CORPS OF GENTLEMEN-AT-ARMS—The Rt Hon. Baroness Anelay of St Johns, DBE CAPTAIN OF THE QUEEN’S BODYGUARD OF THE YEOMEN OF THE GUARD—Lord Newby, OBE BARONESSES IN WAITING—Baroness Garden of Frognal, Baroness Northover, Baroness Rawlings, Baroness Stowell, Baroness Verma LORDS IN WAITING—Earl Attlee, Lord De Mauley, TD, Lord Wallace of Saltaire § Members of the Government listed under more than one Department

SECOND CHURCH ESTATES COMMISSIONER, REPRESENTING CHURCH COMMISSIONERS—Sir Tony Baldry, MP HOUSE OF COMMONS

THE SPEAKER—The Rt Hon. John Bercow, MP

CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS—Lindsay Hoyle, MP FIRST DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS—Nigel Evans, MP SECOND DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS—The Rt Hon. Dawn Primarolo, MP

PANEL OF CHAIRS Mr David Amess, MP, Hugh Bayley, MP, Mr Joe Benton, MP, Mr Clive Betts, MP, Mr Peter Bone, MP, Mr Graham Brady, MP, Annette Brooke, MP, Martin Caton, MP, Mr Christopher Chope, MP, Katy Clark, MP, Mr David Crausby, MP, Philip Davies, MP, , MP, Nadine Dorries, MP, Sir Roger Gale, MP, Mr James Gray, MP, Mr Mike Hancock, MP, Mr Dai Havard, MP, Mr Philip Hollobone, MP, Mr Jim Hood, MP, The Rt Hon. George Howarth, MP, Mr Edward Leigh, MP, Dr William McCrea, MP, Miss Anne McIntosh, MP, Mrs Anne Main, MP, Sir Alan Meale, MP, Sandra Osborne, MP, Albert Owen, MP, Mrs Linda Riordan, MP, John Robertson, MP, , MP, Mr Lee Scott, MP, Jim Sheridan, MP, Mr Gary Streeter, MP, Mr Andrew Turner, MP, Mr Charles Walker, MP, Mr Mike Weir, MP, Hywel Williams, MP SECRETARY—Simon Patrick

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION The Rt Hon. The Speaker (Chairman), Sir Paul Beresford, MP, Mr Frank Doran, MP, Ms , MP, MP, John Thurso, MP, The Rt Hon. Sir George Young, MP SECRETARY OF THE COMMISSION—Robert Twigger ASSISTANT SECRETARY—Joanna Dodd

ADMINISTRATION ESTIMATE AUDIT COMMITTEE Alex Jablonowski (Chairman), Ms Angela Eagle, MP, The Rt Hon. Sir Alan Haselhurst, MP, John Thurso, MP, Stephen Brooker, Mark Clarke SECRETARY OF THE AUDIT COMMITTEE—Gosia McBride

LIAISON COMMITTEE The Rt Hon. Sir , MP (Chair), Mr Graham Allen, MP, The Rt Hon. James Arbuthnot, MP, Mr Adrian Bailey, MP, The Rt Hon. Kevin Barron, MP, Dame Anne Begg, MP, Mr Clive Betts, MP, The Rt Hon. Sir Malcolm Bruce, MP, Mr William Cash, MP, Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, MP, Mr Ian Davidson, MP, DavidTCDavies, MP, The Rt Hon. Stephen Dorrell, MP, Mrs Louise Ellman, MP, Natascha Engel, MP, Dr Hywel Francis, MP, The Rt Hon. Sir Alan Haselhurst, MP, The Rt Hon. Margaret Hodge, MP, Mr Bernard Jenkin, MP, The Rt Hon. Greg Knight, MP, Miss Anne McIntosh, MP, Andrew Miller, MP, Mr George Mudie, MP, , MP, Mr Laurence Robertson, MP, Mr Graham Stuart, MP, Mr Robert Syms, MP, John Thurso, MP, Mr Andrew Tyrie, MP, The Rt Hon. Keith Vaz, MP, Joan Walley, MP, Mr John Whittingdale, MP, Mr Tim Yeo, MP CLERKS—Andrew Kennon, Philippa Helme

MANAGEMENT BOARD Robert Rogers (Clerk of the House and Chief Executive), David Natzler (Clerk Assistant and Director General, Chamber and Committee Services), John Pullinger (Director General, Information Services), Andrew Walker (Director General, HR and Change), John Borley, CB (Director General, Facilities), Myfanwy Barrett (Director of Finance), Joan Miller (Director of Parliamentary ICT) (External Member), Alex Jablonowski (External Member), Barbara Scott (External Member) SECRETARY OF THE MANAGEMENT BOARD—Matthew Hamlyn

SPEAKER’S SECRETARY—Peter Barratt SPEAKER’S COUNSEL—Michael Carpenter SPEAKER’S CHAPLAIN—Rev. Rose Hudson-Wilkin

PARLIAMENTARY COMMISSIONER FOR STANDARDS—John Lyon, CB PARLIAMENTARY SECURITY DIRECTOR—Peter Mason

9 July 2012

THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES OFFICIAL REPORT

IN THE SECOND SESSION OF THE FIFTY-FIFTH PARLIAMENT OF THE OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND [WHICH OPENED 18 MAY 2010]

SIXTY-FIRST YEAR OF THE REIGN OF HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II

SIXTH SERIES VOLUME 548 FOURTH VOLUME OF SESSION 2012-2013

Seema Malhotra: Over the past two years overall crime House of Commons has not fallen, whereas crime fell by more than 40% under Labour. Does the Home Secretary believe that the Monday 9 July 2012 20% cuts to the are partly to blame, and will she now change course to a more proportionate cuts plan of 12% over this Parliament? The House met at half-past Two o’clock Mrs May: The hon. Lady bases her question on a premise that do not accept and which is not accepted PRAYERS by the Home Affairs Committee or, indeed, by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, which in its report on “Policing in austerity” recently stated that [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] “there is no evidence of a correlation between the change in number of officers and the change in total recorded crime.” Barbara Keeley: Greater Manchester Chief Constable Oral Answers to Questions Peter Fahy says that crime reduction is achieved by neighbourhood policing and by the police strengthening their relationships with local people. The number of police officers on visible policing lines in Greater Manchester HOME DEPARTMENT has fallen by 300 in the past two years, so what effect does the Secretary of State expect that to have on crime The Secretary of State was asked— levels in the area? British Crime Survey Mrs May: As I just pointed out to the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra), what we see 1. Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): is that there is no simple link—this is supported by What overall change in the level of crime has been HMIC and by the Home Affairs Committee—between identified by the British crime survey since May 2010. officer numbers and crime figures. In Greater Manchester, [115538] police officer numbers have fallen by 4%, but overall crime has fallen by 6%. 17. Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Will my right What overall change in the level of crime has been hon. Friend congratulate those police forces in identified by the British crime survey since May 2010. and Wales which have worked to contribute to a 5% [115554] reduction in household crime between the years ending December 2010 and December 2011, and also welcome The Secretary of State for the Home Department the 8% reduction in such crime in Cheshire, my local (Mrs Theresa May): The crime survey shows that overall constabulary area? crime has remained broadly stable since May 2010. Police-recorded crime fell 3% in the year ending December Mrs May: I am very happy to join my hon. Friend in 2011 compared with the previous 12 months, but as I paying tribute to the work that the Cheshire constabulary have told the House previously, crime is still too high, has done to ensure a fall in overall crime which is above and that is why we are making a number of reforms to the national average. We congratulate all officers who policing to ensure that police are free to fight crime. have contributed to that. 3 Oral Answers9 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 4

Andrew Bridgen (North West ) (Con): Damian Green: My hon. Friend makes a very good The latest figures for year-on-year crime in Leicestershire point, which we are working on. Where sentence length show a reduction of 4.3%, or 3,083 offences, over the allows, consideration of deportation is now started up year. Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating to 18 months before the earliest point of removal. As a Leicestershire constabulary on its excellent work in the result, we are removing a significant number of prisoners face of a challenging spending settlement? much earlier in the process. About a third of foreign national offenders removed in 2011 were removed before Mrs May: I am very happy, again, to join my hon. the end of their sentence, which is up from just under Friend in congratulating police officers in Leicestershire 20% in 2008. on all their work in seeing that fall in crime. It is important; it matters to local communities; and it is clear that Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): officers in Leicestershire and in many forces throughout Do the figures for removal in these circumstances differ the country are out there doing what we want them to between the different nations and regions of the United do, which is to fight crime. Kingdom, and if so, why? Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): In Damian Green: There are not significant differences Nottinghamshire, we have seen over the past financial because these people are, by definition, foreign national year the fifth largest increase in crime of any police offenders, so they do not come from any of the regions force, yet we have had the fourth largest funding cut of of the United Kingdom. Broadly speaking, how efficient any authority. Will the Home Secretary look again at we are relates to whether we have a concentration of the funding formula and, in particular, when she reviews foreign national prisoners in a prison where UK Border the damping mechanism of those formulas, think carefully Agency officers can get at them early enough to make about the impact on Nottinghamshire? Police officers sure that all the schemes operate as efficiently as possible. really do make a difference to crime.

Mrs May: As Home Secretaries and Policing Ministers Overseas Students through the years have discovered, there are forces that benefit from damping and forces that do not. We committed 3. Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): How many to look at the damping mechanism in the last two years visas were issued to overseas students to study at UK of the spending review period, but my right hon. Friend universities in the 2011-12 academic year. [115540] the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice has initiated that work already and is currently looking at the issue. The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): Figures Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): In a year of for the 2011-12 academic year are not yet available, but unprecedented operational demand, with the Olympics 206,176 tier 4 student visas were issued in the year to following 2012 events, recorded crime in East March 2012. This figure covers all students, including Sussex is at its lowest in five years. Will the Home those attending university. Last week, Universities UK Secretary join me in congratulating East Sussex police told the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee that force on its excellent work in reducing crime in the universities are projecting an increase in international county and in my constituency? students coming to the UK, and UCAS applications from international students have risen by 10%. Mrs May: Yes, I am very happy to join my hon. Friend in doing so. There has been a fall in crime of Hugh Bayley: We have some of the best universities in 14.5% in Hastings borough, and that is a big tribute to the world, and overseas students contribute £8 billion the work of police officers in that part of East Sussex—and to our national economy and balance of trade. There long may it continue. has been lots of speculation over the weekend that the Government are about to change the migration figures Deportations (Dangerous Foreign Nationals) so as to exclude overseas students. Will the Minister make a statement about the Government’s intentions, and will he think seriously about what can be done with 2. Gavin Barwell ( Central) (Con): What the visa regime and the language requirements to encourage plans she has to reduce the time taken to remove more genuine students to study at British universities? dangerous foreign nationals. [115539]

The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): We Damian Green: I will happily make a statement now. are working with the prisons, the courts and the police There are no plans at all to change the definition of to overcome prisoner non-compliance in the removals immigration. A student who comes here for three years process by establishing nationality and identity earlier; or more is as much of an immigrant as somebody who we are working with the Foreign and Commonwealth comes on a work visa for two years or more. There is an Office to increase the efficiency of the documentation international definition of immigration which covers process; and we are removing a significant number of everyone who moves to another country for more than prisoners much earlier in the process. a year, so students who come here for more than a year are included in that definition. Gavin Barwell: I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. What prospects are there for removing foreign national Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): Will offenders before they have completed their sentence my hon. Friend reject any pressures to change the policy so that the British taxpayer does not have to bear such on students coming here in the light of the fact that the a cost? OECD estimates that a quarter of students subsequently 5 Oral Answers9 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 6 stay on, 120,000 of them settle and 120,000 seek and are will now be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny by a Joint granted extensions of their stay while they are here, and Committee of both Houses and a parallel inquiry by there are some 150,000 outstanding illegal immigrants the Intelligence and Security Committee. The Joint who came here on university visas? Committee has begun its work and is due to report in November. Damian Green: My right hon. Friend makes a number of powerful points. There is, of course, no cap on Simon Hughes: I am grateful to the Minister for his genuine students coming to study genuinely at genuine answer. He will know that the draft Bill, particularly in institutions, and some of our universities, which are clause 1, gives very wide powers to the Secretary of indeed the best in the world, benefit hugely from that. State by order. Will he tell us whether the Secretary of Nevertheless, we have driven out a huge amount of State has yet written those orders? In any event, will he abuse in the student visa system. More than 500 colleges give the undertaking that they will be published at the that used to take foreign students can no longer do so earliest available date? because we put in a proper checking and accreditation regime. James Brokenshire: It is worth underlining that communications data are an essential tool in solving Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): Many and prosecuting crime. It is important that that is not colleges’ licences have been cancelled for several reasons. eroded by changing technologies, which is why we need Many students have been issued visas at the British high the flexibility to respond to change. We are working commissions in Delhi, Pakistan and other places. How closely with the Joint Committee. We are absolutely many were refused entry at the airport when they arrived committed to the pre-legislative scrutiny and to ensuring due to the cancellations of their colleges’ licences? that the Committee can conduct robust scrutiny of the Bill. Damian Green: I am afraid that I cannot give the figure off the top of my head, but I doubt whether most of them would have been refused entry at the airport. I Dr Julian Huppert () (LD): The Minister would say to the hon. Gentleman, and indeed to prospective said that he was working with the Joint Committee on students, that because of the action that we have taken which I serve. He will be aware that the Joint Committee in driving out abuse it is very much less likely now than has not been given sight of the order. Will he promise two years ago for any genuine student from overseas to that we will have a chance to see it while we are carrying arrive in Britain and find that they have registered with out the pre-legislative scrutiny? a bogus college. Removing these bogus colleges has an enormous benefit for the British taxpayer and the integrity James Brokenshire: As my hon. Friend will know, of our immigration system, but it also helps genuine scrutiny of the draft legislation is only just starting. I foreign students to know that from now on they will be understand that the first sitting of the Joint Committee coming to get a proper education in Britain. is due to take place this week. Officials from the Department will consider this matter and give evidence to the Committee. Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): Does my hon. I will commit to keeping the issue under review as the Friend agree that while overseas students are vital for legislative process develops, because we recognise the our universities, this has become an increasingly abused need to ensure that the Bill and the scrutiny that we will immigration route, and that the blanket removal of respond to are effective. We need to recognise that this is students from the statistics would drive a coach and an important matter in ensuring that crimes continue to horses through the excellent measures that he has be prosecuted. introduced? Crime (Rural Areas) Damian Green: I agree completely with the final point that my hon. Friend made. He was right about the abuse. I am happy to report to him and the House that, 5. George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): What steps as of today, we are introducing more widespread she is taking to help the police prevent crime in rural interviewing of students to check their ability to benefit areas. [115542] from a course here. We ran a pilot between December and February, and discovered that 17% of those who The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick had been accepted on a course in this country should be Herbert): The Government fully recognise the vulnerabilities refused because they could not even speak basic of rural communities to particular crimes. The central conversational English. There is always more abuse to grant to police forces continues to take into account the drive out and we will continue to do so. needs of rural areas. The election of police and crime commissioners will give rural communities a voice in Draft Communications Data Bill determining local policing priorities.

4. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) George Freeman: I thank the Minister for that answer. (LD): What progress she has made on the draft His is a strong voice in reassuring people that the Communications Data Bill; and if she will make a Government take crime in rural areas seriously. Will he statement. [115541] join me in welcoming the excellent work that Norfolk police authority has done to clamp down on crime in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home rural areas? Does he agree that the central tension that Department (James Brokenshire): We published the draft such rural authorities face is between centralising work Communications Data Bill on 14 June. The draft Bill to prevent hardened crime from taking hold in rural 7 Oral Answers9 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 8 counties and decentralising to maintain a strong footprint? Immigration (Integration) Does he agree that joint working, as between Norfolk and Suffolk, is important in targeting resources? 6. Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): What steps she is taking under immigration rules to promote better Nick Herbert: I agree with my hon. Friend about the integration. [115543] value of joint working and collaboration between forces, as is happening between Norfolk and Suffolk. That is a 16. Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): What steps she is good example of how savings can be made. It is one taking under immigration rules to promote better reason why Norfolk has been able to increase the proportion integration. [115553] of its officers who are on the front line, according to last week’s report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary. The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): Our immigration reforms will return migration to sustainable Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): Devon levels in the tens of thousands, reducing pressures on and police made significant cuts in the run-up communities. Changes to family immigration rules will to 2010 and are now struggling under further and faster ensure that migrants are not a burden on the taxpayer cuts from this Government. Policing rural areas, and but can speak English and pay their way, and a new indeed urban areas such as Plymouth, is proving to be “Life in the UK” test will have British history and difficult with the loss of manpower. Will the Minister culture at its heart. All of that will help ensure that look at how the area cost adjustment for Devon and migrants are better able to integrate in the UK. Cornwall is reached, because we lose out to places such as Surrey? Richard Fuller: I welcome the Minister’s comments. Nick Herbert: We do not believe that there are The cornerstone of successful integration in Bedford fundamental problems with the way in which grant is and Kempston for generations has been a clear focus on provided. We are looking at the issue of damping, as my hard work and strong family values. Will the Minister right hon. Friend the Home Secretary mentioned earlier. assure me that he will continue to promote those values, The fundamental point is that Devon and Cornwall has rather than the pattern of welfare dependency that has not coped as well with the reduction in funds as similar emerged in recent years? forces that have continued to reduce crime. It is one of the three forces that HMIC said needed to look carefully Damian Green: Absolutely. My hon. Friend makes an at how they would make savings in future. entirely valid point, because most immigrants come here to work and we should encourage them to do so. (Broxtowe) (Con): I know the Minister That is why our new “Life in the UK” test booklet will is busy, but will he meet the acting chief constable, soon concentrate more on British history, British values and to be chief constable, of Nottinghamshire, to see how great people in British history and rather less than the he is working with Leicestershire, Derbyshire and previous Government’s version did on how to claim Lincolnshire, and particularly at how he is managing to benefits. police rural as well as urban areas in these difficult times? Sajid Javid: When my parents left their homeland in the 1960s to settle in the UK, they brought with them a Nick Herbert: Yes, I would be happy to have such a deep respect and love for Britain. Sadly, too few migrants meeting. I meet chief constables regularly and visit share that approach today. I therefore welcome the forces a lot, and I am sure that I will visit Nottinghamshire changes to the “Life in the UK” test that my hon. again in due course. Police forces up and down the Friend has outlined. Does he agree that they will help to country are showing that they are broadly coping well underline the importance of immigrants learning the with the reductions in funding. They are making savings English language? and continuing to reduce crime while protecting the front line. That was what HMIC’s report said last week. Damian Green: That is absolutely right. It is obvious that it is easier for someone to make a success of their Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): In the county of the life in a new country if they can speak the language hon. Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman), properly. That is why we have increased the English 162 police officers will be lost by 2015, yet if reports in requirements across the board for migrants who intend the weekend press are to be believed, the Home Secretary to settle here. That will help them not only to integrate is asking the Treasury for more money to invest not in better in the wider community but to make a success of officers to tackle rural or other crime but in the election their own lives. Opposition Members who campaign of police and crime commissioners. Is that true, and against the changes are letting down future generations does it not show once again that the Government’s of migrants to this country. priorities are wrong on this matter? Mr (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): Nick Herbert: I am absolutely astonished by the right Does the Minister accept that a continuing huge backlog hon. Gentleman’s question, since only last week he and of unprocessed cases in the “legacy” category, along I were in a Committee of this House debating how with arbitrary and at times unfair decisions against much money should be spent on promoting police and genuine and entirely meritorious applicants for visas to crime commissioner elections, and he called for an visit relatives in the UK, continues to make it very increase in resources and for us to spend more money difficult to promote effective immigration among sections on those elections. It is frankly astonishing that he of ethnic minorities who believe that the rules are not should ask me the question that he just has. being applied fairly? 9 Oral Answers9 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 10

Damian Green: On legacy cases, the right hon. Gentleman Antisocial Behaviour is entirely right. In the middle of the last decade, half a million cases were famously discovered, and we are 8. Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East sorting that out. The asylum archive is now down by Cleveland) (Lab): How many police forces in England 24,000 from the high of 98,000 that it reached in 2011, and Wales wait until five separate households have so this Government, unlike the previous one, are getting complained about antisocial behaviour before responding. to grips with the terrible problems that we inherited. We [115545] are increasingly successful in providing not just sustainable levels of immigration but a system in which people The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home can— Department (Lynne Featherstone): Police forces and their local partners should respond to every complaint about Mr Speaker: Order. I think we get the gist of the antisocial behaviour, and most take the issue very seriously, Minister’s point. but if repeated complaints have been ignored, our proposed community trigger will allow victims and communities Olympic Games (Security) to require agencies to take action.

7. Gregg McClymont (, Kilsyth and Tom Blenkinsop: In some areas, people have to make Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): What progress she has made at least three separate complaints of antisocial behaviour on Olympic security preparations; and if she will make before getting a response. Is that not a symptom of a statement. [115544] police numbers being cut by 15,000—they are being cut to 1974 levels in Cleveland—and the fact that police The Secretary of State for the Home Department powers are being weakened by this Government? (Mrs Theresa May): The Government and everyone involved are focused on delivering a safe, secure and Lynne Featherstone: No, not at all. For a start, if the successful games. We are confident in our planning and hon. Gentleman had read the HMIC report published are leaving nothing to chance in our aim to deliver last week, he would know that it makes it clear that games that London, the UK and the whole world can front-line policing is being protected overall. He would enjoy. also know that the service to the public has largely been maintained; the proportion of officers on the front line Gregg McClymont: The Olympics are only 18 days is increasing; the number of neighbourhood officers has away, but we learned over the weekend that G4S still gone up; crime is down; victim satisfaction is improving; needs to fill 9,000 security positions. Without those and the response to emergency calls is being maintained. staff, security will surely be compromised. Will the Home Secretary therefore confirm that she has signed Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): off G4S’s recruitment schedule? Will she also give a Northamptonshire police are an excellent constabulary personal assurance to the House that those 9,000 security and excellently run by Chief Constable Adrian Lee. It is staff can be recruited, vetted and trained in the next doing great work fighting antisocial behaviour. Does 18 days? my hon. Friend agree that police and crime commissioners will also do an awful lot to improve the fight against Mrs May: As the hon. Gentleman may be aware, antisocial behaviour? Does she find it shocking that the venue security is being delivered by the London Organising Labour party does not support that? Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games, G4S and the military. It is a huge operation to Lynne Featherstone: I do find it shocking, given that protect more than 100 different venues, and delivering it so many of the Labour ilk are standing for the position is a big challenge. The Home Office has put in place a of PCCs. The job of PCCs is to listen to what people number of assurance processes to ensure that we have want in their local communities and to give communities effective and robust scrutiny of venue security planning. the powers to require agencies to act. That is happening We have been testing our plans thoroughly and are under this Government, but it never happened under confident that our partners will deliver a safe and secure the Labour Government. games, but we are not complacent and will leave nothing to chance, so we will stay on the case. Policing Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): The Home Secretary has not answered the question 9. Mr (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): What asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, steps she has taken to empower police officers to Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont). reduce crime. [115546] First, will she confirm that she personally signed off the G4S recruitment schedule? Secondly, will these 9,000 people 19. Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): What steps be recruited, trained and in place, and will they have she has taken to empower police officers to reduce gone through the proper security vetting, by the opening crime. [115556] of the Olympic games? The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Mrs May: The hon. Lady has missed one crucial Herbert): The Government have swept away central point: the G4S contract is with LOCOG. The Home targets and cut police red tape. Our package of policies Office has a responsibility to test those plans and to to reduce bureaucracy is saving up to 4.5 million hours provide assurance on them, which is exactly what it has of police time a year, freeing officers to focus on their been doing. core mission, which is to cut crime. 11 Oral Answers9 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 12

Mr Ruffley: My right hon. Friend will know that in Nick Herbert: Crime is falling in Leicestershire, which 2010 less than 15% of a patrol officer’s time, on average, reflects the fact that, despite the challenge set for police was spent on patrol. What specific measures has he forces in reducing their spending, they can do so while taken, and will he take, to cut the red tape at the police maintaining their front-line service and the service to station that is keeping too many officers off the beat? the public, as the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), made Nick Herbert: I mentioned the amount of officer time completely clear. The majority of forces continue to cut —the equivalent of more than 2,000 officers—that we crime, showing that it can be done. have effectively released for front-line duties. For instance, we are returning charging decisions to the police, scrapping the national requirement for the stop-and-account form, 24. [115562] Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and reducing the burden of the stop-and-search procedures, Abingdon) (Con): The Minister is aware that a deeply employing new technology to ensure that police officers distressing child sexual exploitation case is currently can give evidence from their police stations rather than being prosecuted in my constituency. What training having to go to court, and championing a simplified and support are being offered to police forces to ensure crime-recording process. I could go on, but the list is an that they can spot the signs of exploitation early and impressive one and reflects our determination to free up have the confidence to share and act on intelligence so officer time so that they can do the job we want them to that we can prevent these terrible crimes? do, which is to fight crime. Nick Herbert: The Government’s progress report on tackling child sexual exploitation, published on 3 July Mr Speaker: There is plenty of scope there for an by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Adjournment debate, I think. Education, who has responsibility for children and families, makes it clear that the Association of Chief Police Chris Skidmore: I have been working with Asda and Officers and the National Policing Improvement Agency Avon and Somerset police on setting up a police booth are taking forward proposals for the training of front-line in Asda in Longwell Green to ensure an increased police officers in tackling child sexual exploitation. police presence in the area and to empower police ACPO intends to do further work in this area. officers to help reduce crime at little cost. Will the Minister welcome such innovative measures and encourage Mr David Crausby (Bolton North East) (Lab): How all forces to consider how to engage with local businesses will cutting a further 290 front-line Greater Manchester that might be keen to fight crime? police officers in 2012-13 help what remains of our police force to cut crime? Nick Herbert: I welcome that initiative, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising it. It is a very Nick Herbert: There has been a 6% fall in crime in good example of how police forces are using innovative Greater Manchester. That shows that the force is able to means to maintain, or indeed increase, their presence in deal with the necessary spending reductions while continuing local communities. Setting up such booths in supermarkets to reduce crime. That is a credit to the force, its leadership can bring a large number of people into contact with and its officers. The hon. Gentleman, in common with the police—far more than might choose to visit a police his Labour colleagues, continues to call for increases in station. public spending, which is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place. Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): I declare an interest as a candidate to be a police (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Will commissioner in south Wales. Does the Minister not the Minister look at the role that an institute for policing accept that the best way of empowering police officers excellence could play in pulling together evidence of to reduce crime is to prevent reoffending? Instead of best practice and ensuring that the police use what concentrating on bureaucratic requirements, such as works and what is cost-effective in tackling crime? having several reports before action can be taken, will he strengthen the use of antisocial behaviour orders, Nick Herbert: Yes. I am happy to reassure my right which have succeeded in preventing reoffending? hon. Friend that we will be—indeed, we are—looking at that proposal. We are working constructively with the Nick Herbert: The right hon. Gentleman will know police to set up a professional body for policing, about that we are strengthening the powers available to the which we will have more to say shortly. Tomorrow I police with new tools to deal with antisocial behaviour. shall be speaking in Cambridge about evidence-led Police and crime commissioners will play a lead role in policing, and about the importance of police forces giving a voice to the people and will be under statutory developing links with academia, which includes the duties to co-operate with other elements of the criminal potential for faculties of policing. justice system to ensure a focus on preventing crime and reducing reoffending. Metropolitan Police

Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): The 10. Heidi Alexander ( East) (Lab): What Leicestershire force is losing more than 200 front-line recent assessment she has made of the ability of the police officers and more than 150 support staff. Will Metropolitan police to provide an effective service to crime rise or fall in the city of Leicester as a result? the public between now and 2015. [115547] 13 Oral Answers9 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 14

The Secretary of State for the Home Department has been near to the Olympic park, and will she say (Mrs Theresa May): Last week Her Majesty’s inspectorate whether she regrets her decision to downgrade terror of constabulary published “Policing in austerity: One powers in the Olympic year? year on”. The report showed that front-line policing is being protected, and that the vast majority of police Mrs May: First, in relation to the case that the hon. forces are rising to the challenge. The report raised Lady quoted, it is the case that on 27 June an individual some important issues, including for the Metropolitan known by the court initials CF was charged with breaching Police Service. I am confident that the Deputy Mayor his TPIM notice. He is accused of travelling through the for policing and crime, and the commissioner will deal Olympic park area in Stratford, from which he is prohibited, with those issues firmly. on five occasions. However, the package of measures relating to TPIMs, including the requirement to wear a Heidi Alexander: Speaking on “Newsnight” last week, GPS tag, enables the police to respond and investigate the Policing Minister described the impending loss of any breach of a TPIM notice quickly and effectively. I 6,000 Metropolitan police officers as a relatively marginal cannot say more in detail about that case, because that reduction. Is the £232 million black hole in the Metropolitan would risk undermining the prosecution. However, TPIMs, police’s finances also marginal? What guarantee can the which we have put in place, are a good tool and are Home Secretary give me that my constituents in Lewisham being used effectively. The hon. Lady talks about the will not have their safety and security put at risk as a impact on the Metropolitan police, but she knows full result of this financial crisis? well that extra funding has been provided to the Metropolitan police to cover any extra resources it needs. Mrs May: First, the hon. Lady makes a claim in her Crime (Local Communities) question about what my right hon. Friend the Policing Minister said, but he is absolutely clear that he did not say what she has said he did. Also, I challenge her use of 11. Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): the figure of 6,000 in relation to the Metropolitan What steps she has taken to empower local communities police. I think she has used a figure that relates to to tackle crime. [115548] certain officers across the whole country, rather than in the Metropolitan police. However, I can probably do no 15. Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): better than to quote Sir Denis O’Connor, who is currently What steps she has taken to empower local communities Her Majesty’s chief inspector of constabulary.Commenting to tackle crime. [115552] on what has been reported about the Metropolitan police, he said: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Lynne Featherstone): The Government are “Are there some concerns? Yes. Should they be able to get on top of it? Yes.” radically reforming the approach to tackling crime, shifting accountability away from Whitehall and directly Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Technology is crucial to communities. We have provided the public with greater in helping the Metropolitan police and other police information, invested in neighbourhood policing and forces to tackle crime. I know that the Home Office has police community support officers, and increased direct not quite grasped yet the importance of DNA and accountability through beat meetings. This year, the CCTV in tackling crime, but may I commend to the public will be empowered through the election of police Home Secretary the use of SmartWater, a great UK and crime commissioners—a landmark reform of policing success story that helps the police to reduce crime? The that will increase accountability at the local level. company is based in London. May I suggest that she goes to visit, to see what a great job it can do in helping Angie Bray: Noisy neighbours and noise disturbance to reduce crime? often blight the lives of those living in urban areas. What tools is the Home Office providing to help local Mrs May: I will not be tempted down the route that communities to tackle this problem, particularly when my hon. Friend is attempting to take me on some of the police are unable to intervene? issues he referred to in his question—issues on which he has a different opinion from me. However, in answer to Lynne Featherstone: I am sure that all Members have his question, we are very open and willing to look at any people coming to their surgeries with noise complaints new technology that will help the police to do their job, that have gone on for years uninvestigated. As part of which is to cut crime. I can assure him that either I or the reforms set out in the recent White Paper on antisocial another Home Office Minister will be pleased to make behaviour, we propose to introduce the community the visit that he has requested. protection notice, which will give front-line professionals a single flexible power to deal quickly with any inconsiderate Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): The Home behaviour that is affecting a community’s quality of life. Secretary’s decision to replace control orders with TPIMs— The notice will also give the police new powers to deal terrorism prevention and investigation measures—has with antisocial noise. We are putting power into the put additional pressure on the Met’s resources. It now hands of local communities with the new community cannot keep dangerous terror suspects out of London, trigger— and this weekend it was revealed that a suspect who the Home Office itself says wishes to Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Too long. “re-engage in terrorism-related activities” Lynne Featherstone: It may be too long for the hon. had been to the Olympic park site five times before Gentleman, but it is a darn sight more important to the being arrested. Can the Home Secretary guarantee that people who live in these communities and want to use none of the other terror suspects currently being monitored the community triggers. 15 Oral Answers9 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 16

Gavin Williamson: In Codsall, we have had to deal Duncan Hames: That estimate of overall costs was with a recent traumatic event when our scout hut was £1.8 billion. When the last Government first introduced subjected to an arson attack following a period of plans for identity cards, the Home Office estimated antisocial activity in its vicinity. Does the Minister agree costs at between £1.3 billion and £3 billion. By the time that the community triggers will go a long way towards the coalition Government wisely cancelled ID cards, empowering local communities such as those in Codsall that estimate had passed £5 billion. How can we have to make sure that such things do not happen in the confidence that these proposals will not also prove to be future? a burden on industry and the taxpayer alike?

Lynne Featherstone: It is upsetting when, after a James Brokenshire: I agree with my hon. Friend that number of complaints, a situation ends in something the ID card scheme was disproportionate and intrusive, like an arson attack on a scout hut. It is very upsetting and a waste of public expenditure. Our proposals for for the local community. Many police forces, councils communications data are critical to support for essential and social landlords are working hard to deal with day-to-day police operations. The alternatives—covert antisocial behaviour, but there are cases where communities human intelligence sources, directed surveillance and report this same problem over and over again, and undercover officers—are more expensive, more intrusive nothing is done. My hon. Friend is exactly right: the and less effective. community trigger will ensure that, if necessary, everyone has a clear and simple way of making sure that the authorities take a problem seriously before it escalates. John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): What assessment has the Minister made of the potential ability of terrorists to find their way around the provisions Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): Guidance of the Bill? for door supervisors on the seizure of identification documents such as passports and driving licences from those suspected of using friends’ passports or driving James Brokenshire: The whole point of the Bill is that licences to enter pubs and clubs was withdrawn some it provides flexibility. The key aspect of it is that it months ago, pending revision. There is no interim guidance, allows co-operation and collaboration with internet no date for new guidance, so how can we be assured service providers to ensure that we respond to the that, without such guidance, these documents will not changing nature of criminal operations. Criminals are be unlawfully seized and destroyed or enter the criminal changing their tactics, and the legislation needs to move or terrorist underground? with them.

Lynne Featherstone: I will look into the issues that the Deportations (Human Rights Legislation) hon. Lady raises, and I will reply to her by letter. 13. Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): What Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): Faced progress she has made on the matter of deportations with the impossible pressures generated by a 20% cut to and article 8 of the European convention on human its budget, leading to 1,200 police officers going, the rights; and if she will make a statement. [115550] admirable west midlands police service has told the community of Quinton in Birmingham that the local police station can stay open, but only if they agree to The Secretary of State for the Home Department man it. Is this the Home Secretary’s vision for the (Mrs Theresa May): The Statement of Changes in future: a new approach towards community policing Immigration Rules that I laid before the House on that says to local communities, “Man your own police 13 June has come into effect today. It introduces clear station”—and ultimately, I presume—“Arrest your own new rules to protect the public from foreign criminals criminals”? who try to hide behind family life as a reason to stay here. In respect of the most serious offenders, only in Lynne Featherstone: I understand that there is a low exceptional cases will the public interest in deportation footfall at that police station. However, community be outweighed by other factors. volunteers are a very good thing for police stations, and I can inform the hon. Gentleman that crime in his area Mr Leigh: Notwithstanding the excellent work that is down by 7%. my right hon. Friend has done, does she not agree that the only real solution to the problem is to repeal the Draft Communications Data Bill Human Rights Act 1998? Given that it is our Liberal friends who are blocking such action, may I, in the privacy of the Chamber, suggest this course of action to 12. Duncan Hames () (LD): What her? Why do we not all vote against House of Lords assessment she has made of the likely key areas of reform tomorrow, and end the sad, unmourned life of expenditure in implementing the proposals contained in the coalition? Then we can have a general election and the draft Communications Data Bill. [115549] a Conservative Government, and we can repeal this hopeless Act. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire): As I told the House some moments ago, the Government published the Mrs May rose— draft Communications Data Bill on 14 June. It was accompanied by an impact assessment, which estimated Mr Speaker: I must remind the House that the question overall cost for the likely areas of expenditure. concerns deportations and article 8. 17 Oral Answers9 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 18

Mrs May: I am not entirely sure where my hon. they were BAA figures. BAA publishes the monthly Friend was going in linking the House of Lords with figures every month on its website. Those June figures deportations, but I do not share the opinion that he has were figures from BAA, not the Government. I hope the expressed. Personally, I shall be voting in favour of hon. Gentleman trusts BAA to produce reliable figures. House of Lords reform, as I have done previously. As for the Human Rights Act, I have made my views Topical Questions known publicly on a number of occasions. What the Government are doing, crucially, is taking action to T1. [115563] David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): If ensure that we can set out the criteria for article 8 so she will make a statement on her departmental that fewer foreign criminals will be able to call on it in responsibilities. order to stay in this country. The Secretary of State for the Home Department Border Controls (Waiting Times) (Mrs Theresa May): The Olympic games opening ceremony is now just over two weeks away. The Olympic torch 14. Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): What recent relay continues to inspire the nation, and I pay tribute assessment she has made of waiting times at UK to all involved, including the police officers who are borders. [115551] providing such effective, yet discreet, security. Sadly, I will not be able to see the torch when it passes through The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): We my constituency tomorrow morning. The eyes of the will not compromise border security, but we always aim world will be on us during what promises to be a real to keep disruption to a minimum by using our staff celebration of sport. I am confident that our police and flexibly to meet demand. Our sampling of queues shows security services will deliver a safe and secure games that the vast majority of passengers from the European that the whole country—indeed, the whole world—can economic area pass through immigration control quickly, enjoy. but queue lengths have reached unacceptable levels on occasion, and we have introduced a range of measures David Tredinnick: I am grateful to my right hon. to combat that. Friend for that reply. Has she had a chance to look at Leicestershire constabulary’s proposals to change its Graeme Morrice: Data from Heathrow’s terminal 4 force shift patterns? How will that improve the policing show that non-EEA queues exceeded the Government’s in Hinckley in my constituency and the surrounding target on 21 days out of 30 in June, while at terminal 5 area, and will other forces also be looking at changing the targets were breached on 18 days. This continued their shift patterns? chaos comes at a time when the eyes of the world are on the United Kingdom, and when the increased tourism Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for raising the shift created by the Olympic games should be incredibly patterns issue, and I welcome the work that a number of important to our economy. What are the Government police forces across the country, including Leicestershire, doing to deal with this shambolic situation and get a have taken forward, so that they can use their resources grip on our borders? rather better to ensure they can prioritise front-line services to the public while making the necessary savings. Damian Green: were unacceptable in April, I would expect my hon. Friend’s force to be prioritising and anything beyond the service level clearly remains front-line services in exactly that way in his constituency. unacceptable. For non-EEA passengers we met our targets 90% of the time in June, an increase from 75% in Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) April. In response to those large passenger volumes, we (Lab): The Home Secretary has to make sure that there increased the number of staff at Heathrow by more is proper border security without long queues. In April, than 50% this weekend. We now have a new central Ministers promised that all immigration desks at Heathrow control room to enable us to deploy people more quickly would be fully staffed during peak periods over the and efficiently, and we have mobile teams to fill the gaps summer. Instead, June BAA data show that in the more speedily than ever before. early-morning peak at terminal 3, there were only seven staff and at least half the desks were closed, and queues Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I do not trust those reached almost two hours long as a result. There are statistics, to be honest. [Interruption.] I trust the Minister, only 18 days to go until the Olympics; why is it still such but I do not trust the statistics. I went to Stansted last a mess? week, and I know that UK Border Agency staff start counting the people in the queue only when they arrive Mrs May: The right hon. Lady should have listened in the hall itself, which physically cannot take more to the response that my hon. Friend the Minister for than 20 minutes. They do not count the people who are Immigration gave to the shadow Immigration Minister waiting on the escalators, or the people in the corridor, just now. Over recent months we have been increasing or the people round two bends or over the bridge or all the number of staff who are available at Heathrow and the way back to the aeroplanes. When will the Government elsewhere, including the number of contingency staff, in publish proper statistics, involving proper, independent response to what were, when we looked at them in counting, which would show that they are failing in April, unacceptably long queues. The right hon. Lady their primary duty? refers specifically to the Olympics. Extra arrangements will be in place for the Olympics. That was always what Damian Green: I am happy to reassure—and, hopefully, was planned. They will come into play before the Olympics calm down—the hon. Gentleman. The figures I was opening ceremony, and therefore before significant numbers citing were not border force or Home Office figures; of tourists arrive for the Olympics. 19 Oral Answers9 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 20

Yvette Cooper: But BAA has said the queues over the Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for that question, last few days have been unacceptably long. Targets have and he will have heard my hon. Friend the Immigration been breached throughout June. There has been chaos Minister making exactly that point earlier this afternoon. again this morning. Olympics visitors are already starting We think it is absolutely right that we focus on having to arrive. The rest of the country is working hard to the brightest and the best coming to the UK, and that show the world the best of British. All the right hon. we root out the abuse that, sadly, was allowed to occur Lady is doing is showing visitors how to queue. She has in the system for too long under the previous Government, had years to plan this, but now she has got only two so that students are genuinely coming here for an education. weeks to sort it out and make sure the Home Office That is exactly what we are doing by ensuring that does not embarrass everybody else. colleges that have abused the system are not able to bring people in. Mrs May: I repeat to the right hon. Lady that, under the plans for the contingency numbers during the Olympics, T3. [115565] Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): The UK there will be an increase in the number of staff at the Border Agency recently produced information showing borders. We will be manning all desks at peak times that children from Vietnam, China and Nigeria were during the Olympics. The numbers will be there to do significantly less likely to be recognised as trafficking that. It is important that we ensure that we are providing victims by the national referral mechanism. Will the security and a good experience for people arriving at Minister take seriously the concerns raised with his Heathrow, and I was very pleased when I was at Heathrow Department by non-governmental organisations that a couple of weeks ago to be able to welcome five this system is failing to protect those children members of the Chinese team and ensure that they were adequately? put through the games family member lane. The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): I met the various anti-trafficking NGOs recently, as I am sure T5. [115567] Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): With the hon. Lady knows, given her background in this long-distance crime and our resource allocation in sector. We are trying very hard to get better at recognising mind, what are the Government doing to improve children who are genuine victims and not potential collaboration between forces, especially given the criminals, and there are now signs that our training of forthcoming police commissioners? officers is having a good effect in this regard.

The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick T7. [115569] Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I recently Herbert): My hon. Friend is right that collaboration is visited the United States police hall of fame in Florida, important. That is the case in respect of not only which educates people and celebrates the work of the back-office functions, but operational functions, particularly US police force, as well as provides a memorial to US to deal with serious and organised crime. That is increasingly police officers who have died in service. Building on the what forces are doing, as the inspectorate of constabulary fantastic work of Michael Winner, does the Minister confirmed last week, and we have placed forces under agree that having a UK police hall of fame would be new statutory duties to consider that. very appropriate? Will the Home Office support setting one up? T2. [115564] Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): The Crown Prosecution Service is proposing to withdraw its Nick Herbert: I am sure the whole House would agree staff from Athena House, the office it shares with the that we should honour those police officers who lose North Yorkshire police in York, where cases are their lives while doing their duty for their country. processed for the courts. How many offices around the There is a police memorial at the national arboretum, country are joint offices for prosecutors and police? which I visited this year for the Care Of Police Survivors Are the prosecutors being withdrawn from all those service. There is also an annual national police memorial offices? What representations has the Minister made to day service, which Ministers attend and which will take the Law Officers? place on 30 September, and there are police bravery awards. It is right that we do a great deal to recognise police bravery, and I am happy to discuss this with my Nick Herbert: I have discussed this matter with the hon. Friend. hon. Gentleman. We are increasingly moving to integrated working between the Crown Prosecution Service and T4. [115566] Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): police force teams, but the specific operational decisions One of my constituents is currently living abroad and how these units are resourced are matters for local with his Chinese wife, but they both want to return decision making. to the UK to look after his seriously ill mother. Unfortunately, due to the change of rules this month, T6. [115568] Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): Many of he is not going to be able to make the income limit, my constituents have raised with me, time and again, even though his return would prevent his mother from their concerns about immigration. Like me, they going into care. Should we not be practising the welcome the progress being made by the Government Christian values of this country before preaching them but are concerned about the abuse in the student to others? immigration route. Given that 26% of students at private colleges were overstaying their visas compared Damian Green: It is not immediately apparent to me with a figure of just 2% for universities, does the how the new rules would affect that particular case, but Minister agree that it is right for the Government to if the hon. Lady wishes to write to me about it, I will focus their reform on private colleges? take a personal interest in it. 21 Oral Answers9 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 22

T8. [115570] Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old have been put in place with private contractors and we Southwark) (LD): Will the Immigration Minister look are confident in the robustness of those measures. at the current practice whereby applications are sometimes turned down for technical reasons and are then resubmitted Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): The median but may be out of time? We could, thus, save the income in my constituency of Bradford East is £16,200, Government loads of money and effort, and help applicants, more than £2,000 below the income threshold to bring a who are often disadvantaged through no fault of their spouse to the UK. How on earth does it help integration own. to deny people the right to a family life?

Damian Green: I am very happy to do that for my Damian Green: The minimum income requirement right hon. Friend. Indeed, in many parts of the immigration that comes into force today ensures that no one can any system we are now able to process applications faster longer come to this country to get married and live off than ever before. That is particularly the case in the benefits from day one. I think that that will be widely asylum system, where the worst delays used to happen welcomed. and where we are now taking more than 50% of decisions within 30 days. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I think it is very important that Ministers visit Heathrow at peak times. I T9. [115571] Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): was there at seven o’clock this morning and was appalled The Home Secretary will be familiar with the case of to see people being held in corridors, a full immigration my constituent Nosratollah Tajik, who has been under hall and that half the kiosks were not open. May we arrest, tagged and subject to restrictive bail conditions please start the additional measures for the Olympics for six years, pending extradition. For the majority of immediately? that time the Home Secretary has purportedly been considering medical reports. Will she now either make Mrs May: Of course Ministers visit Heathrow and a full statement or meet me to discuss this very other ports at various times to see the operation of unsatisfactory situation? those ports in a variety of circumstances. At terminal 4 today, queues were in fact not over an hour long, as I Mrs May: I recognise the case that the hon. Gentleman understand the right hon. Gentleman has said that they has raised and think that in the first instance I will write were, staff were quickly redeployed and more than to him to set out our current position on that particular 80% of desks were open to process passengers as quickly extradition. as possible. That is what we have been doing by increasing the staff in recent days and in a week or so, the Olympic Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): Does my right numbers will kick in, which will bring even more staff hon. Friend agree that in cases of drink-related antisocial to Heathrow and ensure that people are processed properly behaviour in hospital A and E departments hospital and quickly. staff should be given further powers to hit troublesome drinkers with sufficiently stiff fixed penalty notices to Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): Will the crack down on what is becoming an endemic problem? Home Secretary please review her decision to approve the extradition of Richard O’Dwyer to the US, where The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home he faces up to 10 years for an alleged breach of copyright Department (Lynne Featherstone): My hon. Friend raises rules, an offence, if it is one, that our own authorities the issue of A and E departments and the penalties did not think merited a prosecution? therein. We have introduced a simplified system, going from 19 orders to six, and criminal behaviour orders Mrs May: As my hon. Friend will know, that case is provide criminal sanctions if needed and also put people due to go to court later this year. The extradition on a better behaviour route. decision has already been taken and, as he will know, I have decided to uphold it. T10. [115572] Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): The recent conviction of rioters from Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): If, as the Nottingham was secured in part by forensic evidence Home Secretary maintains, increased surveillance is as recovered from the wicks of smashed petrol bombs, but effective as the power to relocate terrorists, why was CF, the Forensic Science Service has been abolished, staff a suspected serious terrorist, allowed to travel freely numbers have been slashed and local forensic services across the Olympic park five times before being arrested? still face multi-million pound cuts. What assurance can the Secretary of State give my constituents that Mrs May: The right hon. Lady should have listened front-line forensic services will not be harmed by her carefully to the answer I gave earlier. The individual has Government’s cuts? not been allowed to travel across the Olympic park. I am not able to go into further details about the case, as The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the it is before the courts and we do not wish to undermine Home Department (James Brokenshire): We had to address the prosecution case, but I am confident in the TPIMs the problems with the Forensic Science Service, which we have introduced and in the work of our police and was, sadly, making unsustainable losses. New arrangements security services. 23 9 JULY 2012 24

Points of Order House of Lords Reform Bill

3.34 pm [1ST ALLOCATED DAY] Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): On a Second Reading point of order, Mr Speaker. Would you be willing to rule on the question of hybridity relating to the House 3.38 pm of Lords Reform Bill, which we are about to consider on Second Reading? The Speaker has previously defined The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): Ihaveit a hybrid Bill as in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of “a public bill which affects a particular private interest in a manner different from the private interest of other persons or the purport of the Bill, has consented to place her bodies of the same category or class”. prerogative and interest, so far as they are affected by Clause 19 of the Bill treats some bishops of the Church the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of England in a different way from the class of bishops of the Bill. in the Church of England. I therefore wonder, Mr Speaker, Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful, as will be the as this matter is very important in relation to the House, to the Deputy Prime Minister. Before we get the Parliament Acts, whether you would consider referring debate under way, I can inform the House that several it to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills to see dozen right hon. and hon. Members are today seeking whether the Bill is hybrid. to catch the eye of the Chair. The Deputy Speakers and I have compiled a list, very painstakingly. We are doing Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the hon. our best to accommodate as many colleagues as possible, Gentleman for notice of his point of order. As he will but let me say at the outset that I ask colleagues please know, and as, I think, he has just indicated that he not—repeat, not—to come to the Chair inquiring whether knows, a hybrid Bill is a public Bill that affects a and, if so, when they will be called to speak. Colleagues particular private interest in a manner different from must display some patience. Just wait, attend to the the private interest of other persons or bodies of the debate and hope for the best. The Chair is trying to same category or class. The key phrase here is “private accommodate colleagues. To that end, in view of the interest”. The only interest of bishops affected by the level of interest, there will be a six-minute limit on Bill is that of being part of the legislature. That is a Back-Bench contributions. public interest, not a private one. Accordingly, no question of hybridity arises. I hope that that is helpful both to the The Deputy Prime Minister: I beg to move, That the hon. Gentleman and to the House, not to mention the Bill be now read a Second time. bishops. No one doubts the commitment and public service of many Members of the House of Lords, but dedicated Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): On a point individuals cannot compensate for flawed institutions. of order, Mr Speaker. In answer to my question during The Bill is about fixing a flawed institution, so let me Home Office questions on the withdrawal of guidance begin by setting out why our upper Chamber is in need to door supervisory staff at licensed premises, the Under- of these reforms—the three simple reasons why I hope Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Members will give it their full support. The first is that Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne we—all of us here—believe in democracy. We believe Featherstone), said that she would look into the issue that the people who make the laws should be chosen by and get back to me. I put parliamentary questions on the people who are subject to those laws. That principle the issue to the same Minister on 11 and 25 June, and was established in Britain after centuries of struggle received an answer from another Home Office Minister and it is a principle that we still send our servicemen and on 15 May. Can the House be assured that the issue will women halfway across the world to defend, yet right be seriously looked into and appropriate guidance issued now we are only one of only two countries in the world in future, before guidance is withdrawn? —the other being Lesotho—with an upper parliamentary chamber that is totally unelected and instead selects its Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her members by birthright and patronage. point of order. It sounds to me as though she has had, thus far, an interesting but inconclusive exchange, but I Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con) rose— know her and she has a terrier-like quality that is unsurpassed in any part of the House. I can advise her Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): only to redouble her efforts—not to settle for what she Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? regards as an unsatisfactory answer, but to pursue the matter vigorously—although for the time being not The Deputy Prime Minister: I should like to make a through a point of order, but perhaps outside the Chamber. little progress. The House of Lords is an institution that offers its Members a job for life; an institution that serves the whole of the United Kingdom, yet draws around half its members from London and the south-east; an institution in which there are eight times as many people over 90 as there are people under 40; an institution that has no democratic mandate—none whatsoever—but that exercises real power. The House of Lords initiates Bills, it shapes legislation and, as Governments of all persuasions know, 25 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 26 it can block Government proposals, too. These reforms those who make the laws should be accountable to seek to create a democratic House of Lords, matching those who bear the laws, and there is no accountability power with legitimacy. in the process that he is introducing.

Mr Lilley: In his preamble to the draft Bill, the Deputy The Deputy Prime Minister: In answer to the hon. Prime Minister wrote: Gentleman, I would say that there is neither accountability “The House of Lords performs its work well”. nor legitimacy in the status quo. These are jobs for life, which are entirely discharged without any reference to Is he saying that it works in practice, but not in theory? the British people. Surely, it is simply time to trust the British people. The Deputy Prime Minister: I think that it is both flawed in theory, because of its lack of democratic Several hon. Members rose— legitimacy, and flawed in practice, because the status quo is unsustainable, as I shall now explain. The Deputy Prime Minister: I shall make a little more progress, if I may. Several hon. Members rose— The Bill, by creating a more legitimate House of Lords, gives it more authority to hold Governments The Deputy Prime Minister: I shall make a little progress to account—a greater check on Executive power. That before giving way again. does not mean emboldening the Lords to the point that Under our proposals, 80% of Members would be it threatens the Commons—I shall come on to those chosen at the ballot box, with elections taking place concerns shortly—but it does mean bolstering its role as every five years, and the remaining 20% would be a Chamber that scrutinises Government. It means forcing appointed by an independent statutory commission. Governments to treat an elected upper Chamber with There would be no more jobs for life—we propose greater respect. The aim of the Bill, to quote the right single, non-renewable, limited terms of about 15 years—and hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), is to create our reforms would guarantee representation for every a second Chamber region of the United Kingdom. At the heart of the Bill “more independent of the executive, more able to exercise independent is the vision of a House of Lords that is more modern, judgment”. more representative and more legitimate—a Chamber fit for the 21st century. That will mean not only better laws, but fewer laws, restricting, again in the words of my right hon. Friend, Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): A moment ago, “the torrent of half-baked legislation” the Deputy Prime Minister said that one of the functions that Governments are capable of. of the House of Lords was to introduce legislation. Can he give us an example—of importance—of a Bill introduced Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) in the other House that has affected this country but (Con): I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that did not have the Government’s permission to be giving way. The Blair Government were defeated four introduced and seen through? Is not the Lords job times in the House of Commons and 460 times in the different from ours? Our job is to initiate and pass House of Lords. Does the right hon. Gentleman really legislation on the condition of the Government; the believe that an elected House of political placemen will Lords job is to deliberate on that legislation. do a better job of opposing than does the current House of Lords? The Deputy Prime Minister: All legislation, whether it originates here or in the other place, of course requires The Deputy Prime Minister: It will be able to discharge the support of the Government of the day to make its that considerable authority with greater legitimacy, and way on to the statute book. therefore it will be harder for the Executive to ignore the The second reason that the reforms will lead to better opinions of the House of Lords. I would have thought, laws—this may help to answer the right hon. Gentleman—is if I may say so, that it was a long-standing Conservative that the Bill is not just about who legislates, but about principle that it is the people who should be in the how we legislate. Right now in our political system, power driving seat and the Executive who should be kept on is still over-concentrated in the Executive. Governments, their toes. quite simply, can be too powerful. During their political The third reason to support the Bill— lifetime, many Members have seen landslide Administrations able to railroad whichever Bills they like through the Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): Will the right Commons, and we have all heard colleagues complain hon. Gentleman give way? about different Governments trying to ram Bills through the other place when they should have been trying to win the argument in both Houses. Despite its assertiveness, The Deputy Prime Minister: I shall make some more too often Governments believe they can disregard the progress. Lords. The third reason to support the Bill is simple practicality. The House of Lords cannot carry on on its current Mr Shepherd: My intervention was prompted by the path. We need to reform the Lords to keep it functioning, Deputy Prime Minister’s statement of the principle that and we need to do it soon. those who make the law should be elected by those who bear it. Of course, the older and greater principle is that Several hon. Members rose— 27 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 28

The Deputy Prime Minister: I will give way in a minute, Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I entirely if I may make this point. agree with the Deputy Prime Minister that the people Right now, we have an upper Chamber that is ever- need to be part of the process and feel that Parliament expanding. That is one of the main consequences of the belongs to them, so will he give them a vote on his unfinished 1999 reforms. Very simply, after a general proposals? election, new Governments will always seek to reflect the balance of the vote in the Lords. But it is impossible The Deputy Prime Minister: I think that a referendum to get rid of Members: the only way to leave is to die. So is not justified in this instance, for the following reasons: new Administrations inevitably have to make more first, unlike other issues that are a source of great appointments to get the balance right. [Interruption.] disagreement here, all three main parties are committed The current membership is 816. That will soon be to delivering House of Lords reform, by way of their over 1,000. Clearly, the status quo is unsustainable. own manifestos, which they put to the British people at [Interruption.] The House of Lords is already— the last election, the one before that, and the one before that; secondly, it would be very expensive—£80 million—for something on which we are all supposed to agree; and Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the thirdly, it would detract attention from the much more Deputy Prime Minister. There is a permanent cacophony important referendum taking place in this Parliament: in the Chamber and Members might think that it is the referendum on the future of the United Kingdom. some sort of laughing matter, but as far as a lot of people observing our proceedings are concerned, it is David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): Has my right just discourteous. The right hon. Gentleman has a right hon. Friend seen the Bill in the name of his right hon. both to speak and to be heard with reasonable decorum. Friend Lord Steel, the House of Lords (Cessation of That is what Members would want for themselves; that Membership) Bill, which addresses the issue of over- is what Members should extend to the right hon. membership in the other place and has widespread Gentleman. support there?

The Deputy Prime Minister: The point that I was The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course I have examined making, then I shall give way, is that the status quo is that Bill and discussed it with Lord Steel extensively. unsustainable. The House of Lords is already too big, Any reasonable person who subjected it to any scrutiny and it will continue to grow bigger still under whichever would conclude that it would not deal with the practical Government, unless we do something about it. issues to which I have alluded—the House of Lords getting bigger and bigger—because voluntary resignation Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): If, or the kicking out of convicted criminals simply will not for whatever reason, the Deputy Prime Minister is deal with the unsustainable trajectory of the size of the unsuccessful in getting the White Paper through this House of Lords. afternoon—[HON.MEMBERS: “It is a Bill.”]—will he pledge today that he and other senior Liberal Democrats Several hon. Members rose— will not take their places in an unreformed House of Lords? The Deputy Prime Minister: I will make a little more headway, and then of course I will give way. Democracy, better laws and the urgent and practical The Deputy Prime Minister: I am making the case for need for reform are the three reasons why Members of the Government’s Bill. I am not going to make predictions this House should give the Bill their blessing and wish it about a vote tomorrow, which I firmly believe will be a swift passage into law. Before addressing some of the carried. concerns about the Government’s proposals, I would The Bill reverses that trend. It gradually reduces the like to make the point that the Bill, although it has been membership and caps it at 450, plus 12 bishops. Some introduced by the coalition Government, in many ways people have said that the numbers could be dealt with is not just the Government’s Bill. These reforms build much more easily, that we can slim the other place by on the work of our predecessors on both sides of the disqualifying convicted criminals or allowing Members House. As with all the best examples of British to resign. constitutional reform, the proposals look to the future but are respectful of the past. Veterans of these debates Several hon. Members rose— will know that the coalition parties cannot claim full credit for the reforms presented here. If we go back to the White Paper produced by the right hon. Member for The Deputy Prime Minister: I will give way shortly. Blackburn (Mr Straw) in 2008, the late Robin Cook’s The first solution would bring the total down by a “Breaking the Deadlock”, the House of Lords Act 1999, handful, potentially; the second perhaps by none. Others Lord Wakeham’s royal commission and everything that have said, “Yes, cap the House at an appropriate limit, went before over the past 100 years, it is clear that these but make it fully appointed.” But how could we possibly reforms have a long bloodline that includes all our justify dramatic reform of the Lords that did not introduce parties and political traditions. a democratic element? That would be unthinkable. It would be in direct contravention of each of the three Mrs Main: Does the Deputy Prime Minister not see main parties’ manifestos, flying in the face of our collective that there is a degree of inconsistency between his view promise to renew our politics. The only way to get to that we in this House are too powerful and therefore grips with the numbers is fundamental democratic reform. need neutering by the House of Lords and his voting to That is what the Bill does. maintain the strengthening of the electorate and the 29 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 30 boundary changes by keeping the number of Ministers Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab): Will the Deputy yet reducing the number of Back-Bench Members of Prime Minister cease also to say that the Labour party Parliament? has supported reform of the House of Lords since 1910? What we supported in 1910 was abolition. The Deputy Prime Minister: One of the Bill’s intentions is absolutely not to neuter the House of Commons, but The Deputy Prime Minister: If the Labour party’s to work in partnership with the House of Commons in views have evolved over the past 100 years, which in this holding the Executive to account. I would have thought matter, if not in others, they may have, I hope none the that Members on both sides of the House would celebrate less that the right hon. Lady will confirm that there was and support anything that means that Parliament as a clear manifesto commitment from the Labour party a whole can hold the Executive more fully to account. not only to support the principle of House of Lords Indeed, in 1910, when Government proposals to limit reform, but to deliver it in practice. the power of the House of Lords were introduced, it was Winston Churchill who said: Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Will the Deputy Prime Minister give way? “I would like to see a Second Chamber which would be fair to all parties, and which would be properly subordinated to the House of Commons and harmoniously connected with the people.” The Deputy Prime Minister: I shall make a little more progress, if I may. He ended by saying: In 2007, the Commons voted overwhelmingly for a “The time for words is past; the time for action has arrived.”— mostly elected second Chamber. Each of the main [Official Report, 31 March 1910; Vol. 15, c. 1572-83.] parties stood on a platform of Lords reform at the last More than 100 years later, I could not agree more. election, and since coming into Government the Minister for Political and Constitutional Reform, the Parliamentary Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Many of us Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member who have sympathy with the need to reform the other for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), and I have looked for place are still deeply concerned about these proposals. every way to take it forward by consensus. Will the Deputy Prime Minister tell us what it was in his We convened a cross-party Committee, which I chaired. recent experiences that has suggested that the kind of We then published a White Paper and a draft Bill for democracy we need is one where politicians can say pre-legislative scrutiny. what the hell they like, stay for 15 years and never have to face the voters again? Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con) rose—

The Deputy Prime Minister: I think that it is preferable Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con) to their being there, making the laws of the land and rose— never being put before the British people. I would hope that the hon. Gentleman, if he believes in House of The Deputy Prime Minister: I shall make a little more Lords reform as strongly as the Labour party always headway. has—it used to be a long and noble campaigning tradition A Joint Committee of both Houses spent nine months for the party—will not only will the ends by backing considering that White Paper and draft Bill, and I Second Reading, but will the means by backing the remain extremely grateful for the Joint Committee’s programme motion. forensic and detailed analysis. We accepted more than half its recommendations and reshaped the Bill around Several hon. Members rose— its advice. This Bill is therefore the sincere result of long and The Deputy Prime Minister: If I could just make some shared endeavour. Its history belongs to us all: to Liberals, to Conservatives, to Labour and to all other parties in progress—[HON.MEMBERS: “Give way!”] Yes, of course I give way. this House, as well as to the great political reformers and pragmatists of the past.

Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): I am very Conor Burns: The Deputy Prime Minister is making grateful to my right hon. Friend, but will he cease to an articulate case for a position to which he holds with quote Churchill on these matters, given that they relate great conviction, and I respect his integrity in that, but to Churchill’s views on the House of Lords at a time of does he accept that many of us fear that by electing the great conflict between the House of Commons and the second Chamber and giving it the greater legitimacy House of Lords in the 1920s? As he grew up through his he talks about, we will end up creating a rival to this political life, he dropped those views and had great Chamber, rather than the revising Chamber that we all reverence and respect for the institution of the House of want Lords—something that I suggest my right hon. Friend should have as well. The Deputy Prime Minister: I know that the hon. Gentleman holds his views, although different from The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course I will always mine, with great sincerity, and I respect him for that, but refer to the views of Winston Churchill with a great in a bicameral democratic system there is nothing unusual deal of respect, but I point out only that he expressed about having two Chambers, both of which are either those views in 1910, when of course he was a Liberal, fully elected or mainly elected, and in which there is a not in the 1920s. I know that he changed his views later, clear imbalance, an asymmetry—a hierarchy, if you like and they are a matter of record. —in the relationship of one Chamber with the other. 31 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 32

[The Deputy Prime Minister] First, let me take the myths in turn. I have heard the accusation that the reforms will be too quick and too I am sure that we can manage it here. The predictions abrupt and that the Bill amounts to some frantic act of that it would lead to gridlock and to rivalry between the constitutional violence. The truth? These reforms would two Chambers were made when reform took place in be implemented over about 15 years. New Members 1958 and in 1999. They did not materialise then; I really would be appointed or elected in three tranches over do not believe that they will this time, either. three elections. The political parties and groups would have maximum discretion over how to reduce their Chris Bryant: Will the Deputy Prime Minister give existing numbers. way? I have heard it said that the modernised Lords will cost the earth. The truth? Taken as a whole, and once The Deputy Prime Minister: If I can make a little completed, the Government’s reforms of Parliament more progress, I will give way. will be broadly cost-neutral. Of course, this does not mean that every Member of this House agrees with every clause—[Laughter.] That Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) is an understatement! There is no perfect blueprint for a (Lab) rose— modernised second Chamber. Even within each of the main parties, differing visions of reform can be found, The Deputy Prime Minister: I will give way later. and this Bill reflects a number of compromises that The additional costs attached to running a reformed have been made to accommodate differences across House of Lords—which, incidentally, are much more the House. I say to Members of this House who have modest than some of the estimates doing the rounds—will specific worries about particular aspects of this Bill that be offset by the saving from reducing the number of this is precisely what further scrutiny of the proposals, MPs. Once all this is implemented, the real-terms cost in both Houses, will be about. The concerns that remain of running Parliament is expected to be roughly the fall into two main camps: the myths, which I will now same as it is now; the only additional cost will be seek to dispel; and the fears, which I hope to address. conducting the elections themselves. But before doing so, I give way to the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). Mr Nuttall: How can the Deputy Prime Minister justify not holding a referendum on these proposals Chris Bryant: The Deputy Prime Minister knows that when a referendum was held on the alternative vote I support reform and have done for a very long time, but system, which, by any stretch of the imagination, was there are elements of the Bill that I do not like, such as not as wide-ranging? the 15-year term and the fact that it is not clear enough about the respective powers of the two Houses. If the The Deputy Prime Minister: The reason is that the Government are going to end up Parliament-Acting the electoral system that votes Members to this House is a Bill because the Lords refuses to deal with it, it is all matter on which there is profound disagreement between the more incumbent on us to get it right before we send the parties, whereas the principle of House of Lords it down the corridor. That is why I say to him, regretfully, reform is something to which we have committed ourselves that his programme does not fit the bill. in all our party manifestos over a prolonged period. It is essential that we make a start by having the first The Deputy Prime Minister: I would be intrigued if 120 elected peers elected in 2015. If the hon. Gentleman the hon. Gentleman could tell me—if not now, afterwards or other Members of this place want further reassurance —exactly how many days Labour Members want. about the triggers that would then allow the second and The right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) said third waves of election to take place, of course I, and today in that the reason he is opposing the Government as a whole, will be prepared to engage the programme motion has nothing to do with scrutiny with that. of the Bill: “Within the rest of the legislative programme are loads of Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab) rose— right-wing bills which will damage people in Britain. So I don’t think it is any part of our responsibility to try and get those bills Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab) rose— into statute.” In other words, Labour’s ulterior motive appears to be Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con) rose— to disrupt the rest of the Government’s business. That is not a legitimate way of dealing with a programme The Deputy Prime Minister: I will make a little more motion, which is a perfectly reasonable way for the progress and then give way again. Government to try to make progress on this important I have heard Lords reform presented as some kind of piece of legislation without disrupting all other parts of Liberal Democrat crusade. The truth, as I have said on our business. a number of occasions, is that it made its way into all the party manifestos—in the case of the Labour party, Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con) rose— as the right hon. Member for Neath has indicated, going all the way back to Keir Hardie’s 1911 manifesto. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con) rose— The final myth is this: I have heard it said that the House of Commons should not be concerning itself— The Deputy Prime Minister: I will make a little more progress and then give way again. Mrs Laing: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? 33 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 34

The Deputy Prime Minister: May I first deal with this Commons have arisen, with predictions ranging from important point? The hon. Lady has raised it with me disaster to apocalypse. In 1999, some said that the new personally on a number of occasions, so perhaps she life peers would not accept the traditional conventions would care to listen to my answer. and would block manifesto Bills in which Governments The final myth is that the House of Commons should legislate on their election promises, resulting in endless not be concerning itself with Lords reform at a time of gridlock over Government priorities. As with all such economic difficulty. My answer is this: let’s get on with predictions, that was completely wrong. The reformed it—proper scrutiny, yes; years of foot-dragging, no. I do House accepted that the conventions would continue not remember this complaint being made when we and adjusted to its new status without overreaching its legislated to create elected police commissioners, or role as a junior partner, as it will again. when we were debating local government finance or legal aid reform. It is odd to suggest that Parliament Philip Davies: Will the right hon. Gentleman give cannot do more than one thing at a time. I certainly way? agree that jobs and growth are the priority, so let us not tie ourselves up in knots on Lords reform. We do not The Deputy Prime Minister: I will just deal with the need to—all the parties are signed up to it. We should issue of primacy. Although questions of primacy are vote for the Bill and the programme motion so that we important and must be answered, we must remember can scrutinise the Bill properly while still allowing ourselves that these fears are the routine reflexes to Lords reform. to make progress on other Government priorities. The Bill will not turn the other place into some kind of monster. It relates to size and composition only and Mrs Laing: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for contains no new powers for the other place. giving way. It happens that he has just hit on the very point on which I agree with him entirely. We do have a Philip Davies: If we may go back to myths for a duty to reform the House of Lords, even though we are second, one myth is that it is an important principle to doing other things at the same time. He is absolutely the right hon. Gentleman that people who initiate legislation right about that, but what a pity that he does not accept should be elected. If that is such an important principle, Lord Steel’s Bill and get on with the necessary reform why does he not insist on elections for European that everybody agrees with. If all three party manifestos Commissioners, who initiate far more legislation in this gave no choice on House of Lords reform, is that not a country than people in the House of Lords? good reason to put it to the people in a referendum, because in the election they had no chance to vote The Deputy Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman against it? knows, the European Commission has no right to adopt legislation. If he applied part of his well-renowned The Deputy Prime Minister: Following that logic, the fervour against unelected bureaucrats in Brussels to commitment to a referendum on House of Lords reform unelected peers in the House of Lords, we would make should have been included in the party manifestos. a considerable progress. Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Ultimately, the primacy of the Commons will remain It was in ours. grounded in our conventions and absolutely guaranteed by our laws. The Deputy Prime Minister: I know, but it was not in the manifestos of two of the three main parties. Helen Jones: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? The second point that I make to the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), who was a distinguished The Deputy Prime Minister: If I may, I will make member of the Joint Committee, is that although she progress on the issue of primacy. and I do not agree on this matter, I hope she does agree To ensure that there is a rock-solid legal backstop, the that the Government listened meticulously to the Parliament Acts will remain. We have reaffirmed those conclusions of the Joint Committee, which supported Acts in the Bill to make that point crystal clear. The the main tenets of the Bill on a cross-party basis and Government will still be based in the Commons, the was chaired by a Member of the other place who was appointed element of the new Chamber means that it not from either of the coalition parties. That shows how will never be able to claim greater electoral legitimacy, consensual we have been in working up our ideas. and the Commons will, of course, continue to have sole I will move on from the myths that have abounded responsibility for money Bills. to some of the fears about the Bill, many of which, I accept, have been expressed in good faith. Broadly, there Mr Tom Clarke: The Deputy Prime Minister has is a worry that we risk upsetting a delicate constitutional referred on a number of occasions to the Joint Committee balance, creating a second Chamber that is too assertive on which I and other colleagues served. Does he think and therefore a threat to this place, as was alluded to that it best served the purposes of reform when the earlier. I am not surprised by that. It is part of a— Government declined, despite our encouragement, to give us any information about funding and refused us Several hon. Members rose— legal advice in the form of the Attorney-General?

The Deputy Prime Minister: I will give way in a The Deputy Prime Minister: I pay tribute to the right minute, if I may make progress on this point. hon. Gentleman for his work on the Joint Committee. I am not surprised by that fear because it is part of a As I hope he knows, we have published the costings of normal and familiar pattern. Every time the other place our proposals in full and in detail. Everyone can scrutinise has been reformed, questions over the primacy of the them line by line. Of course, we were not in a position to 35 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 36

[The Deputy Prime Minister] Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): The Deputy Prime Minister has spoken a great deal about provide him with a line-by-line analysis of the costings the Joint Committee and his respect for it. Will he at that stage because we were waiting to change the Bill please think again about the central recommendation of in view of the conclusions of the Joint Committee. both the Joint Committee and the alternative report, Without finalising the Bill, we could not finalise the which is the necessity for a referendum? analysis of the costs. The Deputy Prime Minister: I will not repeat the Several hon. Members rose— reasons why I believe a referendum would be unjustified, expensive and a huge distraction from the most important The Deputy Prime Minister: I will give way in a moment, referendum of all, which is on the future of the United but I want to make a couple of points. Kingdom. However, I will repeat what I said in response A separate but related fear is that opening up the to an earlier intervention. If the hon. Gentleman or Lords to election will politicise it, creating a Chamber other Members feel that they need some assurances of career politicians likely to rival MPs and robbing the after the first wave of peers have been elected, so that Lords of its wisdom and expertise. Let us be clear about the second and third stages of reform are subject to the current situation. The other place contains some some type of trigger, I will of course be prepared to extremely eminent individuals who bring a wealth of consider that. knowledge and experience to Parliament, but it is hardly The combination of elections by proportional entirely dispassionate, an institution somehow untouched representation, single terms and a specific duty on the by party politics. More than 70% of its Members receive appointments commission to consider diversity could their peerage from party leaders—that is, more than encourage more women, more members of black and two thirds of Members take a party Whip, and very few minority ethnic communities and more people with rebel. disabilities to serve. Members of the House of Lords are more likely to come from this place than from any other profession, Several hon. Members rose— with 189 being ex-MPs. In a reformed House, Members will see themselves and their role very differently from The Deputy Prime Minister: May I just make this us here, not least because of their longer term and the point? I have been very generous, and I will take more means by which they elected. interventions in a moment. Crucially, the list system will mean that the new Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): If this reform membership will be properly representative of all parts goes through, 189 will be people who never managed to of the United Kingdom. Right now, nearly half the become MPs. Members of the House of Lords are drawn from London and the south-east, whereas only 5% come from the The Deputy Prime Minister: What the hon. Gentleman north-west and 2.6% from the north-east. Our proposals misses is that the Bill will in fact make space in Parliament will correct that imbalance. Proportionately, the west for a different kind of politician. [Interruption.] Let me midlands will see its representation more than double, explain. [Interruption.] and for the it will treble. The Bill has sewn into it the chance to create a richer, more diverse House Mr Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman must drawn from many more walks of life. be heard. All this noise just slows up the proceedings. A lot of Members—more than 80—want to speak today, Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): Does and only a small proportion will do so. my right hon. Friend not think that people watching this debate will be bemused? Back in 2010, they voted for three parties that had House of Lords reform in The Deputy Prime Minister: What we are doing is their manifesto, yet Back Benchers in some of those what the Joint Committee itself recommended. The parties are now trying to block it. It has been 101 years, Government not only accepted its recommendation and the people voted for it in 2010; let us get on with it. that appointed Members should be able to combine membership with a role outside the House, but have The Deputy Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. extended that principle to elected Members. Friend that, given all the other major challenges that our country faces—particularly the economic and social Several hon. Members rose— ones—it is inexplicable to members of the British public that this Bill is the one thing on which opponents want The Deputy Prime Minister: I am answering the hon. to tie us up in knots for months if not years to come. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh). The Lords should be a place for people who are Helen Jones: The Deputy Prime Minister has referred public spirited, have political and ideological affiliations repeatedly to democratic accountability. Why, then, does and want to serve the country, but who also want to he insist that the Lords should be elected by proportional continue to lead a life outside politics. It should be for representation when the voters of this country decisively people who want or need to work and have neither the rejected that in a referendum, which he now seeks to desire nor the inclination to be an MP. They will not be deny them? allowed to leave the Lords and immediately seek election to the Commons, so they will be encouraged to see their The Deputy Prime Minister: Both coalition parties time in the House of Lords as their one real chance to agreed in the coalition agreement that elections to the make their mark. House of Lords should take place on a proportional 37 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 38 basis to ensure that we do not create a carbon copy of in the hands of the people. We have a chance to finish the Commons, and to ensure a proper balance of power, their work. This has been a 100-year long project. Let reflecting all the different parties and regions of the us now get it done. I commend the Bill to the House. country in the House of Lords, so that it can play a different role to the Commons, as I am sure the hon. 4.19 pm Lady agrees. Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): I am pleased to be here Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Will the to debate these important constitutional changes. I Deputy Prime Minister consider an amendment to the admit that while the country is stuck in a double-dip programme motion that I have tabled today? It would recession and millions are still out of work, this would allow an extra three days’ debate, which would mean not have been my priority if I were sitting on the that the Committee of the whole House would be one Government Benches, but unfortunately we cannot set of the longest on constitutional issues? That would the Government’s priorities, and we are where we are. allow us to debate the issues in depth, but it would also I am pleased to be here because, frankly, the Deputy allow us to get on with the much needed reform of the Prime Minister’s Bill is a bit of a mess, and I am afraid other place, which is rotten and based on patronage and that his speech did not help matters much either. As a entitlement. supporter of House of Lords reform, I want to do what I can to ensure that reform comes about, but that it is The Deputy Prime Minister: I welcome the hon. Lady’s the right reform and is supported by the people. The support, hoarsely delivered as it was—she has a cough. Bill has huge implications for how Parliament and our It is crucial to wait to hear from the official Opposition Government operate, so we need to get it right. The reforms what their attitude is to the programme motion. Will will form the basis of a lasting settlement between they not accept any form of programme motion, or do Parliament and the British people, so we need time to they have suggestions of their own on the number of get it right—something I shall speak to a little later. days required to deal with the legislation? The Government The Chamber has debated House of Lords reform have been very generous already. many times, as anyone who reads the excellent House of Lords Library paper on the chronology of Lords reform Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): The Deputy will soon realise. It is 95 pages long—and that is only for Prime Minister spoke earlier of the need to reform the the period 1997 to 2010. It does not include the Parliament other place to make it fit for the 21st century. Does he Acts 1911 and 1949, the creation of life peerages in 1958 accept that science and technology are very much part or other unsuccessful attempts at reform. of our future? Will he accept an amendment that would The Labour party remains very much in favour of mean greater recognition of expert Cross-Bench expertise reforming the second Chamber and will support the Bill in engineering, science, technology, maths and medicine? on Second Reading tomorrow night. Ever since I have In addition, I am very happy to explain the correct use been in my current role, I have emphasised our desire to of the term “lobotomy”. seek a consensus on Lords reform, as did Labour Ministers when we were in government. The Deputy Prime Minister The Deputy Prime Minister: We can have precisely referred to cross-party talks and consensus. I attended that debate and a multitude of others on the detail of the cross-party discussions that he chaired, but unfortunately the Bill as long as we make progress on Second Reading they were curtailed before we had the chance to discuss and the programme motion this week. As the hon. Lady all the issues. Our last meeting was in November 2010. may well know, the appointments commission envisaged When in government, we recognised that consensus in the Bill will be statutorily required to ensure proper building was crucial to the success of constitutional diversity and representation of expertise in the 20% of change, as well as the dangers of impermanence stemming non-elected peers in a reformed House of Lords. from one Government imposing their will on our constitution, only to see their changes undone by the Several hon. Members rose— next Government. Our constitution deserves better than partisan self-serving change. The Deputy Prime Minister: Many hon. Members want to make their views known, so I should like to Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): I have a conclude my remarks. I have been very generous in simple question. The right hon. Gentleman says he giving way and would now like to make progress. needs more time to look at the Bill and get it right. I shall conclude my speech as I began. There are three How much more time does he need? reasons to vote in favour of the Bill and its orderly passage: because we believe in democracy, for the sake Sadiq Khan: I shall give the hon. Gentleman a simple of better laws, and because reform cannot be ducked. I answer: wait and hear! welcome the reasoned and expert questions, arguments Rather than working with us on House of Lords and concerns that I know many Members will raise. I reform, the Deputy Prime Minister has occasionally also know that some will not be interested in rational chosen to pursue a lofty, hectoring stance. I am afraid discussion—those who would oppose Lords reform in that his piety has done great harm to the cause of whatever form, at whatever time and in whatever century, constitutional reform. Labour has decided to support no matter what commitments their parties have made. the Bill on Second Reading in spite of his attitude, not This project has always been dogged by those who because of it. fear change. What encourages me is that it is being kept Let me take this opportunity to lay to rest the myths alive by those who champion democracy: the reformers spread about Labour’s record on House of Lords reform. and modernisers who believe simply that power belongs The changes that Labour enacted to the second Chamber 39 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 40

[Sadiq Khan] this has left us open to criticism by the Deputy Prime Minister—and, I hear, the Chancellor—for not doing between 1997 and 2010 were unparalleled. No political enough during our years in government. party—certainly not in modern times—comes anywhere The House of Lords Reform Bill was first published near our legacy. Just 15 years ago, in 1997, the second on 27 June. A draft Bill was published in May last year, Chamber was still full of hereditary peers, so the government which was largely castigated in this Chamber and the of the country was still determined by a group of other place. Before the Bill’s publication, the Deputy people chosen by birth right. It was the politics of a Prime Minister set great store by the findings of the previous century and a different time. After considerable Joint Committee established to look into the draft Bill. debate, Labour pushed ahead with the removal of hereditary Let me take this opportunity to thank all the members peers. Many here will remember the enormous objections of the Joint Committee, who spent nine months on the in the other place and from Conservative Members. In report. The Joint Committee published its report on fact, 13 of the current Cabinet voted against the Second 23 April, with an alternative report published by 12 of Reading of the House of Lords Act 1999. its members. And what did the Liberal Democrats do? Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): The Stephen Gilbert rose— right hon. Gentleman’s manifesto at the last election stated: Sadiq Khan: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can tell me. “To begin the task of building a new politics, we will let the British people decide on whether to make Parliament more Stephen Gilbert: Rather than the right hon. Gentleman democratic and accountable” asking me questions, I would like to ask him one. How in a referendum. Is that still his party’s view? will the Labour party vote on the programme motion? Sadiq Khan: It very much is. Unlike the hon. Gentleman’s Sadiq Khan: I will answer the question myself. On the coalition partners, we keep our promises. Third Reading of the Bill abolishing 90% of hereditary peers, the Lib Dems abstained. I know a reshuffle is Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): The right hon. due, but the hon. Gentleman should stop reading the Gentleman said that he required time to consider the Whips’ sheet and listen to the debate. Bill. How long does he require—10, 15, 20 or 25 days? The Lib Dems abstained. Subsequently, we introduced Will he enlighten the House by saying how long he feels people’s peers and a proper appointments process, and is necessary? we also sought to ensure that no single party would have a majority of Members in the second Chamber. Sadiq Khan: We are in favour of reform. I will come The Constitutional Reform Act 2005 resulted in a far- to the issue of timing in a moment. reaching separation of powers, with senior Law Lords I note from his opening statement that the Deputy removed from the other place. The UK for the first time Prime Minister highlighted areas where the Bill had had its own dedicated Supreme Court, which is now been amended as a result of the Joint Committee’s firmly established on the other side of Parliament square. report, but he was less keen to highlight those where he It is also worth reminding the House what happened on has not taken on board the Joint Committee’s views. He that occasion. Thirteen members of the current Cabinet, knows as well as I do that he has cherry-picked from the including the Prime Minister, supported a reasoned Joint Committee’s report, while blindly ignoring its amendment declining to give that Bill a Second Reading other key recommendations and concerns. Let me turn in 2005. What did the Liberal Democrats do on Third to the Bill itself. If I was being generous, I would have to Reading? Yes, they decisively abstained. We are therefore say that the Bill as it stands is a bit of a mess. comfortable with our record in government on good constitutional reform. Mrs Laing: Having sat on the Joint Committee for eight months, I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman Andrew Bridgen: The right hon. Gentleman talks that the report was critical of the Government’s Bill. about creating a consensus across the Chamber about The alternative report—signed by 12 of the Joint Lords reform, but is not the truth that this Bill, if Committee’s 25 members—was even more critical. The enacted, will not reform the House of Lords, but effectively Committee agreed that eight months was not long abolish it? The House of Lords is a fine institution. It is enough to give proper scrutiny to the Bill, so how could not broken, so why do we need to fix it? 10 days be long enough for this House?

Sadiq Khan: The hon. Gentleman is right that the Sadiq Khan: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. reforms, if carried through, will replace the House of She reminds us that there are still a number of major Lords as we know it now. However, I will come to the deficiencies, which will need to be looked at in Committee, semantics of the words “abolish”or “replace”in a moment. if the Bill is to be improved. Our support for giving the Bill a Second Reading should therefore not be taken as It is fair to say that Labour would have liked to go a blank cheque. much further. On occasion we tried to achieve much more, but we were held back. Our decision to proceed We have many concerns—many of them major— only with cross-party consensus acted as a restraint on about the content of the Bill, but I shall concentrate on the pace of reform. Proposals floated by Labour ran three areas. into fierce opposition. Despite healthy general election The area of powers and conventions deserves our majorities, Labour did not seek to impose our wholesale greatest attention. With all the focus on form, the reforms on a divided House of Commons. It is ironic that Government have neglected function. On primacy, the 41 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 42

Government have sought to rewrite the inadequate Sadiq Khan: The Bill— clause 2 of the draft Bill and dropped any reference to the conventions governing the relationship between the Mr Heath: He wanted me to respond, Mr Speaker. Houses. It remains to be seen whether this will deal satisfactorily with the issue; constitutional experts are Sadiq Khan: The Bill recognises that conventions no doubt poring over this as we speak. As the Bill will may evolve, and assumes this will happen of its own be debated on the Floor of the House, and as new accord during the transition phases. We believe that clause 2 was not considered by the Joint Committee, that is too passive and is a dangerous position. The there has been no pre-legislative scrutiny. We simply do obvious questions requiring clarification include the not know whether the provision is adequate. Labour following. What is the position on the Salisbury-Addison Members want to ensure that the Commons maintains convention about Bills and the prevention of manifesto its primacy even when a second Chamber becomes commitments? What about the convention that the elected. Lords does not usually object to secondary legislation? It is impossible to predict what changes might develop More than 1,000 pieces of secondary legislation go in the culture of the House of Lords following reform, through Parliament each year; the Parliament Acts do but it seems likely that elected Members will expect to not cover this. What about the convention that the play at least a fairly assertive role and that voters may Government should get their business through in reasonable share that view. When the European Parliament went time? The Parliament Acts still allow Bills to be delayed from being an appointed to an elected body, it demanded for 13 months. What is the position on the exchange of more powers to reflect its democratic mandate. Why amendments between Houses? The Lords could force should elected Members of the second Chamber be the Commons to concede on major changes or resort to bound by conventions that bind a Chamber of hereditary the use of the Parliament Acts. I am not saying that and appointed peers? The Bill effectively washes its those questions cannot be answered adequately; it is hands of this issue. just that the Government appear not even to realise that these are live issues. They have their heads in the sand. Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend explain why it is good enough to have Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The shadow a referendum when we are electing a mayor in a city, yet Secretary of State is making a powerful speech. He not good enough to have one when we are changing the refers to the Government’s Bill. Is it not a fact that constitution? there are 10 Ministers sitting on the Front Bench today, of whom only two are Conservative and eight are Sadiq Khan: I heard the Deputy Prime Minister Liberal? Does that not show where the real support for desperately trying to answer that question, but on four this Bill comes from? or five occasions when such questions were put to him by his hon. Friends, he failed to answer them. Sadiq Khan: It is not for me to get involved in private family grief. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Did It is simply not clear how any dispute about the use of my hon. Friend notice that in answering one of his powers or appropriate interpretation of conventions colleagues earlier, the Deputy Prime Minister said that could be adjudicated or effectively enforced? We think the coalition had decided on a change to the voting the Bill will need to play a more active role in addressing system in favour of proportional representation? Only powers and conventions, particularly if we are to placate a few months ago, however, the electorate rejected that, the legitimate fears of colleagues on all sides and in but the coalition is not prepared to accept the both Chambers. Failure to do so risks storing up big democratic will of the electorate. problems for the future.

Sadiq Khan: It is worse than that. The Joint Committee Mrs Main: I should appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s did not even examine the type of voting system that is comments on the function of this apparent second now being proposed. It was pulled out of a hat without House. Does he share my fear that when the majority of any proper consideration. its Members are elected and a small proportion will be appointed, there will be a divided second House some Although the Bill recognises that conventions— of whose Members will have more power than others? [Interruption.] Ministers on the Treasury Bench need When it comes to a tied vote, who will really win? to calm down. Sadiq Khan: The hon. Lady raises one of the issues The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of that need to be resolved. the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the semi-open list (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): Will system was exactly the system that he personally asked the right hon. Gentleman give way? for in the Joint Committee? Sadiq Khan: The hon. Gentleman has been very Sadiq Khan: Will the hon. Gentleman confirm two patient, so I will give way to him. things: first, that the Joint Committee stopped sitting in November 2010; and, secondly, that the Joint Committee Tim Farron: I am extremely grateful to the right hon. of both Houses failed to consider this system? He Gentleman for his statesmanlike address. He seeks credit decides not to respond. for the Labour party for reforming history, and he is right to do so. The last but one Labour Prime Minister, Mr Heath rose— who introduced devolution in Scotland and Wales and 43 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 44

[Tim Farron] The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper): I was a little confused by the right hon. a Northern Ireland Assembly, and, indeed, introduced Gentleman’s criticism of the open list system. One of proportional representation for European elections without the things that we did after listening to the Joint Committee a referendum, deserves enormous credit. was adopt an open list system, in the spirit of consensus, Does the right hon. Gentleman feel comfortable about as it is exactly what the Labour party put in its manifesto. concentrating on the details now, and essentially asking for a prevaricators’ charter? Does he feel comfortable Sadiq Khan: The Minister is wrong to suggest that about being ranked as a pygmy alongside those giants the Joint Committee had an opportunity to consider of constitutional reform? the system that he has now put in the Bill. It simply did not. I am willing to give way to the Minister again. Did Sadiq Khan: I am not sure whether I understand the the Joint Committee consider the type of voting system hon. Gentleman’s point. He seems to be suggesting that that is in the Bill? Well, the Minister has decided to we skip the details and rush the Bill through the House, remain in his seat, which is his prerogative. and I am not sure that that is my idea of good government. There are legitimate concerns about the possibility that this hybrid system will lead to tensions between the Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): Does my different types of Member, and that those who are hon. Friend feel as uncomfortable as I do when listening elected and are full time will consider themselves more to the Liberal Democrats lecturing people on referendum legitimate, and be treated as such, than those who are commitments in manifestos when they cannot even unelected and part time. There are also other concerns, keep to their own commitments to their coalition colleagues, which will no doubt be raised over the next two days. or on tuition fees? Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): The right Sadiq Khan: I am always uncomfortable when listening hon. Gentleman asked whether the Joint Committee to Liberal Democrat Members of Parliament. had considered the issue of open lists. Obviously we did not consider the specific clauses that are now in the Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Bill, but if he reads our report he will see that there is a Will my right hon. Friend give way? section referring to open lists, and a recommendation that states Sadiq Khan: I will give way once more. “In the Committee’s view, the voting system chosen should give voters the widest choice… of where to cast their preferences, whether that is within a single party or across candidates”. Mr Sheerman: My right hon. Friend is making some very good points. I have been in the House for long We did consider the issue, and the right hon. Gentleman enough to have voted for many of the progressive may wish to correct the record. measures introduced by a Labour Government, but one of the things that worry the reformers on the Sadiq Khan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for helping Opposition Benches who want change in the upper me out by confirming that the clause was not considered House is the quality of the people who would end up by the Joint Committee. there—and there is nothing in the Bill to assure us that the party machines will not control all the people who Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): In end up there. answer to an intervention from the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), the Deputy Sadiq Khan: My hon. Friend highlights one of the Prime Minister said there could be some kind of referendum problems of a list system. That is one of the reasons or investigation after the election of the first tranche of why we are surprised that the Joint Committee, which peers. That shows that we need a more detailed investigation sat for nine months, did not consider the type of system of the Bill, because the rules are changing as we go that is being imposed in the Bill. along. “I am a supporter of a fully elected House of Lords”.— [Official Report, 5 April 2011; Vol. 526, c. 879.] Sadiq Khan: It is worrying that the Deputy Prime Those are not my words—although I agree with them—but Minister has today decided to pull a rabbit out of the the words of the Deputy Prime Minister. However, his hat by suggesting the idea of a referendum once we have Bill proposes the establishment of an 80% elected Chamber. some peers appointed or elected in the way that he We are disappointed that it has not gone for a fully wants. elected second Chamber. Even the Joint Committee was We also need to be clear that the model is not quite as split, recognising that there was a case for that. simple as the 80:20 split that has been portrayed. The Our position is that we want a fully elected second Bill permits the Prime Minister of the day to appoint Chamber, and that was also the position taken in the eight additional Ministers to sit in the Chamber. That Liberal Democrats’ manifesto. By allowing some Members will mean that, once again, patronage will lead to a still to be appointed, the Deputy Prime Minister is place in the second Chamber—so much for accountability weakening his own arguments for having elected Members and the end of patronage! Over the period of a Government, in the second Chamber. The Deputy Prime Minister’s that could accumulate, and result in a fair number of pet phrase—although he did not use it today—is “Do partisan ex-Ministers with full voting rights being members not let the best be the enemy of the good”, but in of the legislature for 15-year terms by appointment via proposing a hybrid Chamber he may be storing up patronage. This, again, is against the advice of the Joint problems for the future. Committee. 45 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 46

Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): The right has been highlighted by a number of eminent commentators hon. Gentleman has discussed the problem with having and colleagues from both sides of the Chamber, we different types of peers in the new upper House, but would do so because someone who was opposed to nobody has yet discussed the new ministerial Members, reform of the House of Lords had no way of expressing who will, of course—[Interruption.] Well, not in terms that opinion at the last election. A referendum would of numbers. The fact is that the Bill will allow the Prime allow a full and frank airing of views and allow voters Minister of the day to impose an unlimited number of the option to support, or oppose, the position. ministerial peers who are not appointed by appointments system. Duncan Hames: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? Sadiq Khan: The draft Bill advocated the Prime Minister having the power to appoint Ministers, who would be Sadiq Khan: I want to make some progress. members of the legislature for as long as they were The fact is that, under these proposals, by 2015, let Ministers. However, the Bill published last week says alone 2025, the way in which the Members of the other they can stay for 15 years, which is really quite remarkable. Chamber are elected and appointed will be totally different from how it is now. That is a radical change; it is not Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): I thank simply tinkering. If it were just tinkering, I am sure that my right hon. Friend for making public the historic the Deputy Prime Minister would not be quite so keen levels of indecision on the Liberal Democrat Benches in to champion the proposals as he is now. respect of House of Lords reform. On the 15-years issue, the Deputy Prime Minister says this House contains Moreover, Parliament has got into the habit—some career politicians. Surely, a 15-year job is a career. would call it a convention, and a good one at that—of holding referendums on major constitutional change. When in government, Labour did so in Wales, Scotland Sadiq Khan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: and Northern Ireland on devolution proposals, and in 15 years non-renewable hardly leads to accountability. London on the creation of the mayoralty and the A key absence from the Bill is that there will be no assembly. We also did so on giving further powers to the referendum. The Government have opted to impose Welsh Assembly. We gave the people of the north-east their proposals on the public, rather than trust the of England a referendum to vote on regional government people with a vote on House of Lords reform. We think —a proposal they rejected. Even this Government have that is an error, and it runs contrary to the growing held a referendum on changing the voting system. People tradition that major constitutional change should be will not unreasonably think that the Deputy Prime put to the people in a referendum. Minister fears that his latest set of proposals will suffer It is not only Labour that calls for a referendum. The the same fate as his electoral reform ideas. Referendums Joint Committee also unanimously called for a referendum: were also held in towns and cities up and down the “The Committee recommends that, in view of the significance country on proposals for elected mayors less than eight of the constitutional change brought forward for an elected weeks ago. So if a referendum is good enough for House of Lords, the Government should submit the decision to a Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, London, the north-east, referendum.” Bristol, Leeds, , Manchester, Birmingham, This Bill is much weaker as a result of the Government Wakefield, and for the alternative vote system, it is refusing to include a referendum. certainly good enough for Lords reform—an issue of We heard a number of defences of that position from national significance. the Deputy Prime Minister. He said a referendum was Time prevents me from dealing with the other areas not needed because proposals to reform the House of where this Bill needs improvement, which include the Lords were in all three main parties’ manifestos. The length of the terms; whether those terms should be manifestos said very different things, however. While renewable; the cost of the second Chamber; the transitional Labour and the Lib Dems called for a wholly elected arrangements; and the system of elections. There are second Chamber—albeit Labour wanted a referendum more such issues, but time is running away. as well—the Conservatives sought only to find consensus. We have made it clear that we will be voting to give It is not simply semantics to argue that the Conservatives the Bill a Second Reading; we support the principle of never actually gave a commitment to reform the House reform of the House of Lords. As the Government have of Lords; they gave a process commitment to seek decided to introduce this Bill, our job is to respond. We dialogue to find common ground. will oppose where we think things are not right and we will support them when we think they are the right Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Will the right thing to do. As I have said, on this occasion we will be hon. Gentleman give way? supporting the progress of this Bill, but the Committee stage will offer the opportunity for the House to shape Sadiq Khan: I need to make some progress; I have the Bill into something much better. been speaking for quite a while. It is absolutely crucial—[Interruption.] I will answer What is the best way to build consensus and to get a the question that Ministers on the Treasury Bench have second Chamber that has legitimacy and public confidence? been chuntering about. It is crucial that the Bill is given One way would be through holding a referendum. That sufficient time to be debated in detail. I know that the would give consensus, public confidence and greater Chief Whip has now left, but attempts to shorten or legitimacy. stifle debate by the Government would be unhelpful. A Even if all three manifesto commitments had been fixed period of time for the Committee stage will not identical, we would still push for a referendum. First, we allow proper discussion of all 60 clauses and 11 schedules, would do so because it is in our manifesto. Secondly, as and consideration of new clauses. Filibustering could 47 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 48

[Sadiq Khan] not to have votes in this Chamber as they take 15 minutes, losing us time for debate. Is it not therefore all the more render a full and frank debate impossible, which would important, particularly on clause 1, which contains be an utter travesty for a Bill of this importance. Let us nearly all the issues of composition, that we have as consider the following: much time as it takes to get it absolutely right and to “when there are really important matters before the House…a big have as many votes as we need to get it right? Otherwise, Bill when Members want to say what they need on behalf of their there will be no prospect of the Bill ever coming into constituents, they are unable to do so because of some ridiculous law because we will be unable to Parliament Act it. programme motion that does not take into account the gravity or importance of the measure.”—[Official Report, 2 February 2009; Sadiq Khan: On a number of occasions, the Prime Vol. 487, c. 638.] Minister and Deputy Prime Minister have said that they They are not my words; they are the words of the will use the Parliament Act to get the Bill through, Deputy Leader of the House of Commons. which means that the second Chamber’s ability to revise and improve will have gone and the Bill must leave this Sir (North East Fife) (LD): The Chamber in the best state possible. If debate is guillotined, right hon. Gentleman has not stinted from personal that will not be possible. criticism of my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister, so why is he declining to tell the House of Margaret Beckett: My right hon. Friend has made a Commons how many days he thinks are necessary for point in his effective speech of referring to the previous this Bill? If he and his party are so committed to the Government’s record on reforming and improving the reform of the House of Lords, why is it, if they oppose House of Lords and of the Liberal Democrats’ failure the programme motion, that they will find themselves in to support us. Let me remind him that when we introduced the same Lobby as those opposed, root and branch, to the House of Lords Act 1999, if I recall correctly, we any reform at all? allowed four full days of debate on the Floor of the House on the five-clause Bill and we did not programme Sadiq Khan: I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman that discussion in any way because it was a constitutional is talking about his coalition partners. [Interruption.] matter.

Mr Speaker: Order. Liberal Democrat Members should Sadiq Khan: I apologise for correcting my right hon. not be yelling at the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Friend, but in fact there were nine days of debate, not and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies four, on the Floor of the House. She is absolutely right Campbell) intervened and the right hon. Member for in all other respects. Tooting (Sadiq Khan) is replying. The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) is an aspiring Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): Does statesman— my right hon. Friend understand that if he is not prepared to say how long a programme motion should specify for debate, even in his wildest dreams, while Tim Farron indicated dissent. saying that he wants reform of the second Chamber, people outside this Chamber might well feel that his Mr Speaker: Well, perhaps he thinks he is a statesman position is contradictory? Will he therefore consider already, and he should behave accordingly. Let us hear entering into proper negotiations should the programme Mr Sadiq Khan. motion fail tomorrow night, so that we ensure that everyone outside this place knows that the Labour Sadiq Khan: I have already told the House what the party is still a party of reform of the second Chamber? Deputy Leader of the House thought a few months before he had the burdens of high office. Only two Sadiq Khan: I thank the Chair of the Political and months before he became part of the Government and Constitutional Reform Committee for his helpful words. part of the Executive, he said that programme motions It is important for us to ensure that we do that so that are the public can see that we are genuine and because we “imposed by the Executive to prevent debate”.—[Official Report, believe in House of Lords reform. We do not want the 2 March 2010; Vol. 506, c. 819.] Bill to get stuck in the House of Commons so we will enter into discussions, but the Government must talk to Duncan Hames rose— us. The Deputy Prime Minister has failed to talk to us on the substance of the Bill and what is really important Sadiq Khan: Let me refer to the manifesto on which is that the usual channels operate— the hon. Gentleman stood and won in 2010. In a section on the House of Commons entitled Mr Heath rose— “Strengthen the House of Commons to increase accountability”, Sadiq Khan: I have already allowed the hon. Gentleman it stated that Parliament would be given and others to intervene—[HON.MEMBERS: “Ah!”] Of “control over its own agenda so that all bills leaving the Commons course I will give way. have been fully debated.” Mr Heath: Let me make it absolutely plain: we have Chris Bryant: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend tried to speak to the Opposition at all times during the for giving way. One problem is that when we debate development of the Bill to find out how they long they important pieces of legislation, we sometimes expect want for the programming of it. They have declined to them to be corrected in the House of Lords and choose tell us and the right hon. Gentleman is declining to tell 49 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 50 us today. That is why we cannot reach consensus; the Mrs Laing: Does the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge Opposition do not want to tell us how long they want that this is not just any Bill? The Bill brings about for the Bill, but simply want to vote against the programme fundamental change to Parliament. It is a serious motion. constitutional measure and, by convention, the House does not usually put a timetable—a limit—on a Bill of Sadiq Khan: It will be for others to draw what conclusions such constitutional significance. they want to from those crocodile tears. As the Leader of the House has returned to the Sadiq Khan: I heard Lib Dem Members chuntering Chamber, it is worth reminding ourselves of what the while the hon. Lady, who sits on the Political and Conservatives believe about programme motions. He has Constitutional Reform Committee, sat on the Joint said that Committee and spoke for the Conservatives in opposition, “today I can announce that we will abolish the practice of made her important point. automatically guillotining Government Bills and give Parliament The next two days offer an opportunity for views back the time it needs to make real improvements to the law.” from all sides to be expressed. On previous occasions The manifesto on which he stood—the Conservative when the Chamber has debated House of Lords reform, manifesto, not the Liberal Democrats one—stated that there has been no shortage of opinions from across the they would allow full spectrum, all sincerely held and all genuine. I am “MPs the time to scrutinise law effectively”. certain that this occasion will be no different. I understand That is the point that we have been trying to make. Both that more than 115 MPs have already indicated that coalition parties are clearly on the same page as Labour. they want to speak in the debate over the next two days. The Bill before us today should be allowed to be fully I know that there are siren voices of concern in all parts debated and there should be no guillotining of debate of the Chamber. There are those who favour reform, by the Government. but have concerns about the Bill, and those who favour the status quo. The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Let me end by saying that we can all agree that no Young): I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman one, except the Deputy Prime Minister, thinks that this for giving way. It is indeed the case that since 2010 we is a perfect Bill. We will help the Government to give the have tried to develop a consensual approach to the Bill a Second Reading tomorrow night, but Government programming of legislation and on many constitutional Back Benchers should vote with us on the programme Bills against which his party has voted on Second motion so that we can all work together to achieve a Reading, they have agreed to the programme motion. better Bill. That has happened because we have had a sensible dialogue. I very much regret that, on this Bill, it has not Several hon. Members rose— been possible to have that dialogue and reach agreement. Mr Speaker: Order. The six-minute limit on Back-Bench Sadiq Khan: As somebody who was involved in the speeches now applies. boundary changes Bill, I can say that that was not the case. 4.57 pm Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): The Parliamentary Voting Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): In the modern System and Constituencies Act 2011 made a substantial history of parliamentary reform, there have been a parliamentary change in Wales. Due to the approach of number of noble milestones: the extension of the franchise the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives in the in the 19th century, and to women voters in the 20th; coalition, there was no discussion on the Floor of the the Parliament Act 1911, which gave primacy to this House on the reduction from 40 seats to 30 for Wales. Chamber; and the expulsion of hereditary Members That is exactly what will happen if we have a programme from the House of Lords. Those were all radical measures, motion for this Bill—we will be prevented from speaking and they were welcome and serious. I very much regret out. to say that the Bill that the Deputy Prime Minister has introduced does not come into that category. Sadiq Khan: It is worth reminding the House what The Bill is a puny measure. It is unwelcome and it will happened: MPs from Wales did not get a chance to do far more harm than good to our constitutional discuss their seats, and nor did MPs from Devon and structures and to the good government of this country. Cornwall, but the hon. Member for Isle of Wight I say that because, essentially, two things will happen. (Mr Turner) got his chance to discuss his seat. First, the Bill will lead to the departure—the expulsion—of The Government are not only trying to deprive the the vast majority of Cross Bencher and specialist Members public of their say in the matter by not giving them of the upper House. We have been extremely well served a referendum, but seeking to deprive the people’s by several hundred of our most distinguished citizens— representatives of the chance properly to scrutinise the industrialists, trade unionists, academics, diplomats, Bill. For the avoidance of doubt, I repeat what my right churchmen of many faiths, leading members of the hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has made armed forces—all of whom have carried out the task of quite clear: we want House of Lords reform and we do revision, and only a small fraction of them can remain not want the Bill stuck in the Commons, but we need under these provisions. What are we to replace them by? the opportunity properly to scrutinise, amend and improve Essentially, it will be a sham democratic Chamber, it. Accordingly, we will vote against the programme consisting overwhelmingly of Members who would rather motion tomorrow night, and hope that Members on be in this Chamber and who will be elected under a both sides of the House join us. party list system that is an insult to the electorate. 51 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 52

[Sir Malcolm Rifkind] What public interest will be served by the Bill in its current form? Does my right hon. Friend really believe I believe that this Bill needs to be opposed. I do not that, compared with all these distinguished men and normally oppose measures introduced by the Government women from all over the country who serve in the of whom I am one of the strongest supporters, but this House of Lords now, most of whom will not be able to Bill has to be opposed, because, essentially, what it is continue to serve, a party list of candidates will result in designed to do will damage the fabric of our government. more cerebral debate, more enlightened debate and I say that both to my hon. Friends who, like me, are more able contributions to the revision of legislation? perhaps willing to go along with an appointed House of Does he actually believe that and does he seriously want Lords, and to other hon. Members who want a genuinely us to accept that, or does he recognise that that cannot, elected system that will continue to attract the brightest in fact, be the case? and the best to serve in the upper House. I was not impressed when my right hon. Friend the Jesse Norman: I am greatly appreciating, as, I am Deputy Prime Minister mentioned that Lesotho provided sure, are all Members, the brilliance of my right hon. the only example of a House appointed like our own. and learned Friend’s speech. Does he share my view He must be aware that, for example, Canada has an that, as for Members of the European Parliament, entirely appointed senate, and that the Federal Republic Assembly Members in Wales and Members of the Scottish of Germany has an upper House which is not elected by Parliament, the process of election can only empower the people but appointed by the states— this group, so that they start to throw their weight around even more? Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): There are no hereditaries in Germany. Sir Malcolm Rifkind: Yes, but what worries me is the prospect of ending up with a party list system which, as we know from the experience of the European Parliament, Sir Malcolm Rifkind: By all means, let us get rid of has no legitimacy with the electorate, is not regarded as the hereditaries. That can be done extremely easily, by a a way of electing people to represent their interests, and very small Bill that would hardly be opposed by anyone. has been entirely discredited, regardless of the view one takes of the European Union as a whole. For that Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): Is not system of all systems to be chosen for the purpose of the reason the Bill fails so miserably that it reflects an deciding membership of the upper House is totally obsession with the form rather than the function of the incomprehensible to me, never mind entirely regrettable. other place? I say specifically to the Deputy Prime Minister, because clearly it is his party that is behind the Bill, and perhaps Sir Malcolm Rifkind: My hon. Friend is right and he the only party that would care much if the Bill never brings me to my next point, which is that if the Deputy saw the light of day, that if he wants to eliminate the Prime Minister really believes in a democratic upper defect he rightly referred to of the continuing presence House, why is he not providing for one in the Bill? What of hereditary peers in the House of Lords, that can be he is providing is form, not substance. The very name of done very easily by means of a simple legislative measure. the revised Chamber will continue to be “the House of If the right hon. Gentleman wants to get rid of the Lords”. Not a senate, it will be the House of Lords, extraordinary nonsense that we have almost 1,000 peers, even though every Lord will have been expelled from it that can be done by a compulsory retirement age. If he over a period of years. wants an opportunity to deal with the other anomalies When it comes to the proposed powers, the Deputy in the House of Lords, he does not need to go down this Prime Minister spends his time trying to reassure this road. The only argument for going down this road is if House that the powers of the new elected, democratic he believes in a democratic upper House which, by its Chamber will be—will have to be—exactly the same as very nature, will then share primacy with this House of those the appointed House has now. What possible Commons. Let him, if he wants that, admit that, rather justification is there for that, if he believes in an elected, than try to conceal that fact behind words that do not democratic upper House? He is a Liberal Democrat; carry conviction. does he not remember the history of his own party? Does he not remember that the Parliament Act 1911 Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) was passed because, until then, apart from on taxation (SNP) rose— matters, there was an equal right of veto in both Houses, and Asquith and his colleagues argued correctly that an Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I take no pleasure in not being unelected House could not have a veto on the business able to support the Government and the coalition, in of Parliament? If the second Chamber is now to be which I am a very strong believer, but it would be unworthy elected, on what ground does he seek to justify his of anyone to argue that a constitutional measure which proposals—other than a desire to be all things to all will have a profound impact on the well-being of this people? country and of our political system should in any way That is the sad problem with the Liberal Democrats: be influenced by its impact, if it were to be defeated, on they always wish to be all things to all people—to go for other legislative proposals. the middle way. I am reminded of a remark I once I have not voted against my party on a three-line heard, which I thought was rather good: if Christopher Whip for a very long time. I last did so in the 1970s. I do Columbus had been a Liberal Democrat, he probably not know what effect it will have this time on my future would have been content with discovering the mid-Atlantic. ministerial career. All I can say is that the last time I did [Laughter.] it, in the 1970s, two years later Margaret Thatcher 53 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 54 appointed me to her Government. So my right hon. and Two other matters lead me strongly to oppose the hon. Friends should be of good heart and vote as they Bill. The first is the specific proposal for the elections. believe, and that means voting against the Bill and The Deputy Prime Minister has waxed lyrical about the against the programme motion. fact that Members of the existing upper Chamber are there by reason of patronage, but that is also what a 5.6 pm party list system is—everyone in this House knows that that is the reality—so he proposes replacing one patronage Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab): I regret to system with another. He also claims that the elections have to differ in this matter from my Front-Bench he proposes would convey accountability. As has already colleague, for whom I have the utmost respect, but in been said in the debate, people who are elected for a my years in the House I have never supported the 15-year, non-renewable term do not need to be, and will establishment of a second House to second-guess this not be, accountable to anyone. Chamber. I have voted for and would prefer the outright abolition of the second Chamber, if that is what it That brings me to my other major concern. The comes down to, but I have not voted and will not vote Liberal Democrats have been particularly vocal about for an elected House. I have made that clear to my the need for constitutional change, on behalf—they electorate on the rare occasions when they have shown always say—of the people of this country, but they have any interest in the matter whenever I have stood for shown a marked reluctance actually to consult the election—that whatever was said in my party’s manifesto, people of this country. In the coalition negotiations that I would not be voting either for a change to the electoral preceded the formation of the Government, they tried system or for an elected upper House—and I have made to blackmail each of the major parties into giving them that clear, I should add for the avoidance of doubt, in a change in the electoral system without a referendum, government as well as out, to a succession of Chief and now they are trying to get us to change this whole Whips. Parliament without giving the people a chance to express their view. I know that in opinion polling people will Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con) rose— say, “Surely it is better to elect the upper House.” As we all know, it all depends on the question that is asked. If Margaret Beckett: I am very short of time. people were asked, “Do you want to set up a second Chamber of politicians with all the facilities that would I completely agree that further reform is both necessary be required, certainly at a cost of tens of millions of and desirable. It is time, for example, to terminate the pounds, if not substantially more?” I suspect we might arrangement for the remaining hereditary peers which get a different answer. was the price in 1999 for ending their complete control of the upper House, and I share the approval of Lord The Bill seeks to reshape this entire Parliament and, Steel’s recent Bill, which makes many sensible suggestions. into the bargain, introduce a different electoral system I entirely understand why, looking at an upper House for the upper House, and all without consulting the whose Members had their place on the basis of being people. I shall not vote for it, and trying to force it the eldest in their families—not even the best qualified through without a referendum is the most undemocratic or most interested—people should conclude that reform thing about it. was necessary and that election was the only way. 5.11 pm However, that original hereditary House has been changing and evolving over many years, ever since the John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) Conservative Government of the past introduced life (LD): In 1970 I had the privilege of sitting on the steps peers. Nearly all those in today’s House are Members of the throne in the other place to listen to my father’s because of the contribution that they themselves have maiden speech. In 1995, following what I thought was made in a variety of ways to the nation’s life, not his untimely death, I had the opportunity to go there because of the contribution, dubious or otherwise, of myself to make my own speech. In the intervening their ancestors. So gradually and with some reluctance, period I often sat on the steps of the throne, largely I have over the years come to recognise that there is because doing so was free and, as a trainee in the Savoy some merit in an advisory and a revising Chamber with company, I was able to spend afternoons on split shifts a membership of variety and experience, but my view there. I listened, watched and learned a great deal about that we do not want and we do not need a competitive the House of Lords. I remember many great noble Chamber remains unchanged. Lords making many great speeches, but I came to the I recognise the argument that is put that we can view that, however wonderful it was, it was no way to somehow prevent that Chamber from being a competitor, run a legislature. When I arrived in this place, in my but I do not believe a word of it. Not only is that my maiden speech I made it clear, as I had done in speeches own long-standing view, but it was powerfully reinforced. in the other place, that I would seek to work for reform of My right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, the Lords and would not rest until it was an elected House. Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) expressed dismay Therefore, I rise to support my right hon. Friend the that the Government did not give the Joint Committee Deputy Prime Minister’s Bill. When I made my maiden the services of the Attorney-General. A former Attorney- speech in this House, what I said on Lords reform was General, as I think he was, the late Gareth Williams, a said more in hope than expectation, but let me tell him brilliant and distinguished lawyer, told us that if the now that the expectation is high, because this is the second House were elected, it would be entitled to right reform, at the right time and in the right context. I compete for power with this Chamber. He said, “You believe that for two fundamental reasons. First, in my cannot confine, for example, decision making on finance view the House of Lords is broke. It does not actually or discussion of the Budget to the House of Commons work. An hon. Friend referred earlier to the number of if you have an elected upper House.” Government amendments that the Lords voted against 55 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 56

[John Thurso] —up to a certain point, because one cannot be thrown out. By seeking, therefore, to replicate that with long in the last Parliament, but the crucial point is the terms and no re-election, that same flavour will come number that survived scrutiny afterwards in this place. through. Further to that point, and absolutely As we all know, when an amendment that is made in the fundamentally, there should be no competing constituency other place arrives here we are told that the Lords have interests. That is why PR and large constituencies are so asked us to think again but, as they are not legitimate or important—so that those who are elected cannot claim elected, let us, the legitimate and elected House, strike it to represent a county, a division or a town. That is down. That is the critical fix that we need to make. absolutely vital. Thirdly, reform should be gradual: it should be brought Mr James Gray (North ) (Con): If I understand in over a period to allow the customs and mores of the the hon. Gentleman’s argument correctly, he is now other place to survive the transition. The fourth point, saying that, because Members of the House of Lords which is also of prime importance, is that the upper are to be elected, when they turn something down and it House should not compete with the House of Commons comes to this House we will be more likely to give way as the place to form the Government. to their views. If that is the case, surely he accepts that So I look to what is in the other place now, but the we are in fact giving up part of our powers? one thing that none of us should be able to support is the status quo. It clearly cannot be right in the 21st John Thurso: Let me come to that point in a moment, century to have half our legislature composed of the because it is a critical part of the argument. rump of the aristocracy, together with the great and the The second fundamental reason I believe that the good who have benefited from whatever their parties House of Lords should be reformed is that for the past might have chosen to prefer them with. 50 years the Executive have gradually been pruning It is extremely important that we look to an upper the powers of Parliament. For 50 years the ability in House that has legitimacy, has elections and replicates this House, and in Parliament as a whole, to hold the the good parts, but that does not replicate, or seek to Government to account has been diminishing. For me, replicate, the bad parts. I happily left the other place in the Bill is primarily about the primacy of Parliament as 1999 to take my retirement from it, but when I did so I a whole. It is not a zero-sum game. Increasing the made a prediction to the colleagues whom I left behind, legitimacy of the Lords will increase the legitimacy of saying that the next stage of reform would not be nearly Parliament as a whole. so easy. I did not for a moment believe that those who had kicked, screamed and gouged their way to party Rory Stewart: The hon. Gentleman is making a very preferment, and had arrived in the other place after all interesting speech, but some people who support the that hard work, would be as happy as I was to leave. Bill say that it will make the upper House stronger, That, indeed, seems to be exactly where we are. some say that it will leave it the same, some say that the House of Lords is not broken, and the hon. Gentleman I have friends in all parts of this House, not perhaps says that it is broken. Does he not agree that real political friends but none the less friends, and I know constitutional reform requires a consistent vision of the how many of them would like to see the other place problems—and of the objectives that one is trying to reformed, so I say to all reformers in this House: we achieve? have a once-in-a-generation opportunity; for God’s sake, let us take it. John Thurso: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. For my own part, I have been consistent 5.19 pm in my views ever since I started to think through the Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) matter seriously, and for me the key part is legitimacy, (Lab): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for for so long as the other place— Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), who has some experience of these things. Alison Seabeck: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? This morning, Mr Speaker, I heard on the radio one John Thurso: No, I have given way twice, and that is of your most distinguished predecessors suggesting that it, so for the avoidance of doubt I will do so no more. this Bill was the end of civilisation as we know it. To me, it is a very small step on the road to a better civilisation The critical point is that the other place is not regarded that we might arrive at if we could get through some of as legitimate by us, by the media or by the public at the very tribal differences that we are expressing today. large. If we had an appointed upper House that was There are three questions to ask in this debate: first, regarded as legitimate, as indeed Canada does, that should we reform the Lords; secondly, if we should would be worth considering, but we do not. As long as reform the Lords, what should be the nature of the there is no election, the upper House will not be considered reform; and thirdly, should that reform be subject to a legitimate, so we have to move towards election. referendum of the British people? We need to observe four key principles. First, we need I came into this House in 1997 on the back of a very to look at the role of the other place. It does its job up important Labour manifesto. We had been out of power until the point at which what it has done leaves the other for 18 years, and so important was that manifesto that place and comes here, so I want the other place to be a we took the unprecedented step of putting it to every place that continues to scrutinise and to advise. individual member of our party in a programme called Secondly, we need to take the best of what exists. For “The Road to the Manifesto”. I think that my right example, the reason the House of Lords works well is hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and that the Whip is lighter—some would even say, “consensual” Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) was in charge of that process. 57 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 58

As well as saying that we would get rid of hereditary us through the voting Lobbies seven times. We voted peers, we said that that would be the beginning of against every option, from a fully elected to a fully “a process of reform to make the House of Lords more democratic appointed House of Lords. The option that nearly got and representative.” through—it failed by only three votes—was an 80-20 Ever since I have been in this place we have, very split. Incidentally, the other place voted almost unanimously slowly but very surely, inched towards a consensus on for a wholly appointed second Chamber. this. That has happened because the quality of our After that, Robin Cook worked with the current parliamentary democracy must be diminished by a second Foreign Secretary, the current Leader of the House, the Chamber that is wholly dependent on privilege or patronage current Lord Chancellor and another great Labour for its membership. Only two countries in the world parliamentarian, Tony Wright, the former Member for have a bigger second chamber than first chamber—Burkina Cannock Chase, to develop the argument with the Faso and Kazakhstan. Incidentally, I doubt whether “Breaking the Deadlock” proposals of 2005. Those they can match the fact that in our House of Lords 54% proposals are very similar to this Bill, and to various of Members come from London and the south-east, other attempts, such as that of the Public Accounts only a fifth are women, and there are more Members Committee and the White Paper published by my right aged over 90 than under 40, which is why my right hon. hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) in Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) once 2008. The Labour Cabinet agreed to that paper, which said that the it is a model of how to care for the elderly. incidentally involved a 50-50 split between elected and appointed Members. Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): Does In the end, Labour proposed a 100% elected House in the right hon. Gentleman think that the House of the 2010 manifesto. As my right hon. Friend the Member Lords as it currently stands is representative given that for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) knows, because he was a two thirds of its Members come from public schools? member of the Cabinet at the time, we knew that we might have to concede an 80-20 split because anyone Alan Johnson: It is a shame that that was said by a who is serious about pursuing House of Lords reform Government Member, but the hon. Gentleman makes a does not want to take on the disestablishment of the fundamental point about why Labour Members have Church of England at the same time, because that is a sought reform—originally abolition, but then reform—of recipe for permanent procrastination. the other place. To me, I am afraid, it represents “Breaking the Deadlock” said that there should be institutionalised snobbery. single terms covering three election periods, as did the I do not agree with Walter Bagehot’s comment that royal commission under Wakeham in the late ’90s and the cure for admiring the House of Lords is to go and as have various other documents. It said that Members look at it, but neither do I agree with the constant would be elected by proportional representation, as did stream of self-regard that comes from those on the our election manifesto in 2010. The reason for that is other side of Central Lobby about how it is the greatest, to keep the primacy of the Commons. When a large most expert revising chamber ever to be devised in the proportion of the second Chamber is elected, we need world. They have certainly been very expert at preserving to ensure that they do not seek ministerial office, that the status quo. I am quite prepared to listen to and they are not after a career and that they will not be debate the very strong arguments for the status quo difficult with elected local MPs and seek to replace made by Members who, despite manifesto commitments, them. That is why everybody who has looked at this are perfectly entitled to come here and make that case. matter in any depth has come to the conclusion that Incidentally, that is not the view of my right hon. there should be long, single terms with no further right Friend the Member for Derby South (Margaret Beckett), to stand again. who believes in a unicameral system. However, the All of the current proposals are right. I should probably consensus that we have been inching towards says that say that they are nearly right before I get into trouble the status quo is indefensible in a modern, 21st century with the Whips—there are obviously some improvements democracy, and that view is reflected in the proposals in that can be made in Committee. However, to get a the Bill. consensus and to take advantage of what is an unprecedented opportunity to do something about this Mr MacNeil: Does the right hon. Gentleman ever issue, as the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland feel that some of those voices arguing for the status quo and Easter Ross said, I believe that a referendum of the are perhaps looking to their own jobs at some time in British people is needed. I ask those on the Treasury the future? Bench to consider that. To have legitimacy, the proposals have to be approved by the public. We can then ensure Alan Johnson: The hon. Gentleman tried to intervene that they are implemented in full. on the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), and now he has got his intervention 5.27 pm on the record. Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): It is a great The first question is, “Do we need to reform the pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Kingston House of Lords?”, and the answer is, “Of course we upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson). Although I do.”The second question is, “Are these the right reforms?” disagree with a lot of what he says, I have respect for the I think that they broadly are. I say that not because they way in which he says it. I certainly agree with his last are Clegg’s reforms, but because they are Cook’s reforms. point about a referendum. One of my great heroes is the late, great Robin Cook. There is wide agreement in this House and in the There was no greater parliamentarian and no greater other place that we want reform of the second Chamber. defender of this place. As Leader of the House, he sent Sadly, the Bill before us is standing in the way of 59 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 60

[Mrs Eleanor Laing] the opposite. A clash between the two Houses and a squabble over when and whether the Parliament Acts measured, necessary reform. If only we had a small Bill could be used will lead to a challenge in the courts, and that proposed to do what we all know needs to be done, I for one do not want vital political issues to be decided we could get on with it. But we cannot, because the Bill not by Parliament but by the judiciary. Our electors is fundamentally flawed. It undermines democracy in expect us to take responsibility, and they expect the three specific ways: first, it damages accountability; buck to stop with us, their MPs. We ought to fight to secondly, it has not been subject to proper consultation; preserve that. and thirdly, it ignores the will of the people. I turn to the matter of consultation. The subject of First, a person who is elected for a 15-year, non-renewable Lords reform may have been talked about for 100 years, term of office is accountable to nobody. but we are not considering it in a proper, wider context. Reform of one part of Parliament is reform of Parliament Duncan Hames: How would the accountability of the as a whole, but we have been able to consider only the Members of the House of Lords be achieved under the narrow proposals that the Deputy Prime Minister has proposals that the hon. Lady would support? put forward. I sat on the Joint Committee for eight months, and we recommended a constitutional convention Mrs Laing: I do not know what proposals I would so that the subject could be properly examined in context. support for the House of Lords, because we have not The Government have ignored that recommendation, had proper consultation or proper consideration of and now we face the possibility that we might not even what ought to be done. I believe that we ought to have a be able to examine the Bill fully here in the House of constitutional convention to consider the reform of Commons because of a narrow programme motion. At Parliament as a whole. Once we have done that properly, the same time, the Government are afraid of a referendum. I will be happy to give the hon. Gentleman my answer. They are afraid to ask the people. No constitutional Worse still on the matter of accountability, a body of convention, no referendum, no proper scrutiny in the people who, having been elected, claim to have a democratic House of Commons—that is not democracy. mandate, will behave as though they had one. There will be no stopping them. They will flex their democratic Mr MacNeil: May I do a cursory self-interest check? muscles and challenge this House of Commons. No Will the hon. Lady rule herself out now of ever taking a matter what any Bill or any convention says, they will seat in an unreformed second Chamber? challenge the primacy of this House. Mrs Laing: No, I will not rule that out—not that I Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): When these people ever expect to be offered a seat, and certainly not by my are elected to the House of Lords, or the House of hon. Friends on the Front Bench. I am probably not the senators, or the second Chamber, they will be elected by most popular Smartie in the tube today, but I do not millions. They will therefore say, “Millions of our people care about that: I am here to do my duty for democracy. have put me here, so I have a better democratic right The Bill ignores the will of the people. Only one year than MPs to speak for them.” That will mean a challenge ago, we had an expensive nationwide referendum in to this Chamber. which the people overwhelmingly rejected a proportional representation voting system. The Deputy Prime Minister Mrs Laing: Exactly. Not for the first time, my hon. now ignores the will of the people. PR for this House Friend has got it absolutely spot on. was rejected, so he says, “Let’s introduce it for the other place.” What contempt! What duplicity! Why does he (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): Does do it? The answer to that non-rhetorical question is that my hon. Friend agree that the challenge will be not just a proportional election system will give the Liberal here in the Chamber but in every marginal constituency? Democrats a permanent hold on the balance of power That is what happens in Australia, where they have the in the second Chamber. That is not democracy; it is system in question. The equivalent of a Liberal Democrat blatant party political advantage. It is short term and Senator in a Conservative seat becomes that area’s small-minded, and I certainly cannot vote for it. parliamentary representative, and so it is in every marginal There is very much more to say on this subject, and I constituency. hope the House votes to give all the time necessary for proper scrutiny of such fundamental parliamentary Mrs Laing: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The reform. Joint Committee took evidence from the Australian Parliament, and Members ought to look at that evidence Several hon. Members rose— and pay heed to Australia before giving away our primacy. The most worrying thing of all is that as the primacy Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I remind of the House of Commons is challenged, the unique hon. Members not to approach the Chair to find out link of accountability between the elector and his or her when they will speak, as Mr Speaker has indicated. We representative in Parliament—their Member of this House will try to get in as many hon. Members as we can. —will be undermined, so Parliament’s very accountability will be undermined as well. 5.36 pm Quite apart from the fact that there is no reasonable Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): The question to which the right answer is 450 extra elected most fundamental principle of any democracy is that politicians, having a second House of Commons at the those who exercise political power over us must be other end of the corridor will not increase the chances elected by us, yet everywhere in the UK it is evident that of holding the Government to account. It will do exactly the long march to extend the franchise has a long way to 61 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 62 go. The most powerful and influential in our society are Mr Allen: My hon. Friend makes his point, but not directly elected—the media, the bankers and the anyone looking objectively at this House would see two civil service. Even the chief executive of our Government competing teams, one for the Government, the other is not directly elected. We are still one of the few against, and it is rare that there is rebellion or independence western democracies in which the people are not trusted of mind, as he well knows. to elect directly their Prime Minister—the top politician We should not fear the liberty and the improvement in the land. Our problem is not too much democracy, of the second Chamber. It might actually be the making but not enough democracy. of the freedom of the first Chamber. It might be one Elections are almost a guarantee of powerlessness. step on the road to having a free and independent Anyone contaminated by contact with the ballot box is legislature that would challenge the power of the Executive. edged around by regulation, oversight and rules that dull our enterprise and inhibit our leadership. For example, Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and locally elected councillors are bound by 1,500 Acts of Hillsborough) (Lab): I wouldn’t hold your breath. Parliament, which render them as little more than agents of the centre. Elected Members of Parliament have a Mr Allen: My right hon. Friend, having been a strong fleeting existence as an electoral college on general member of a past Executive, knows where he is most election night, but thereafter are laughably alleged to powerful. Is he most powerful sitting on the Back hold to account the very Executive that whips them to Benches here, or was he most powerful when in Whitehall vote for them several times a day, every day, every week. and commanding a Government Department? We could discuss how effective the scrutiny was that he went through. Dan Byles: Presumably, therefore, the hon. Gentleman To have an un-elected Chamber with a say in passing will be delighted that a large number of Government laws over our citizens is a democratic abomination. It is Members will show that we are more independent by not a deficit, an anachronism or a quaint ceremonial not giving in to the Whips and by voting against the corner; it is an insult to every elector in the land. It is programme motion? hobbling and repressive. It says to our citizens, “You are not capable or worthy of deciding your own future, of deciding who should run your country.”It says that this Mr Allen: I very much hope that Government Members country is about deference and patronage, about a lack exercise their independence in pursuit of parliamentary of self-confidence and belief, and about insiders and sovereignty and a wider democracy rather than in pursuit those who know better. It is about our past, not our of any special interest—I am sure that will happen. future. It is an open wound in the body of our democracy In all those areas, reform is a relatively simple matter, and it must be healed. but the most centralised state of all western democracies That wound can be healed only by introducing the is blocking the way—the sclerotic relic of an empire, elective principle to the second Chamber. That is what with England as the last country to throw off its yoke. this generation of parliamentarians in both Houses can The regime is so suffocating and so clueless about the achieve over the next year, and it can be done without alternatives that some of our blood relatives in the beheading those whose service in the second Chamber nations of our kingdom feel driven to break free of it. deserves our respect, not our abuse. For those of us who There is an alternative, as there always has been, and for 25 years or more have worked for reform, standing as the best elements of the philosophies of the Labour, on the shoulders of a century of giants before us, these Conservative and Liberal parties have always known proposals are the most serious attempt yet to bring and for which they have always fought: the ballot box. about a change in our democracy and bring it into the No one, and above all hon. Members, needs to be afraid modern era. Their courage and ambition mock the flaccid of the ballot box or of spreading electoral possibility. indecision of recent years. The ballot box is the weapon feared most not by those Are the proposals perfect? No, of course not. Only outside the House, but by Executive power, whether in the 650 different plans in the minds of each hon. the House or elsewhere. The vote can deliver devo-max Member are perfect, but that is why, theoretically at not just for the nations of the UK, but for this Parliament least, we have a parliamentary process. There is a— and for locally elected councils, and above all for individuals in our country. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Today, we will see whether this elected House, this poor, whipped, dwarf of a legislator, can reconnect with 5.43 pm its historic mission to extend the franchise, or whether Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con): we decide to pull up the drawbridge so that none can I am delighted to follow the Chairman of the Political share our meagre status. Can we outgrow this fairytale and Constitutional Reform Committee. I share much of of parliamentary sovereignty and our self-delusion about his analysis but arrive at the opposite conclusion. the primacy of the first Chamber? The cold, harsh The Deputy Prime Minister builds his case on three reality is that we have Executive sovereignty and the broad themes. First, there is his claim about the manifesto primacy of Government. That is what dominates British commitments. It is clear, however, that the Conservative politics, not some fairyland where Members of Parliament manifesto contained no commitment to legislate—the dominate the political scenario. Prime Minister famously described it as a third-term issue. Regardless, however, I would urge my hon. Friends Mr Watts: As an ex-Whip, my hon. Friend will know to think carefully about their responsibilities as Members that we have had more rebellions in the past 10 years of this House. We are not delegates sent here to nod than we had in years before that. Does that not prove through whatever our parties ask, but representatives the independence of the House of Commons? sent here to exercise our judgment in the public interest. 63 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 64

[Mr Graham Brady] effectiveness of this place, but is he clear that he appears to be proposing that we should end up with a second I would also like to reflect on the case for a referendum. legislative Chamber that is slightly altered, but all of If it were true, as the Deputy Prime Minister said, that whose Members are appointed? Is that really justifiable all the major parties promised the Bill at the general in 2012? election, then contrary to the assertions of the Ministers, the public were presented with no choice at the general Mr Brady: The right hon. Gentleman should be patient. election, so the case for a referendum on such major Let me turn to the most important pillar of the constitutional change is compelling. Deputy Prime Minister’s case: that those who legislate for the people should be chosen by the people. Many of Alison Seabeck: The hon. Gentleman is giving a the opponents of the Bill, on both sides of the House, thoughtful speech, as have other Members. If it is reject that. They rightly point to the expertise of the upper possible to have a referendum in a local authority—for House. They highlight the obvious truth that an elected instance, on something to do with council tax—surely it or part-elected upper House would be more inclined is absolutely right, on an issue as significant as this, that to challenge the primacy of the House of Commons. the British public should be offered the same choice. I accept both assertions, but unlike many of my hon. Friends, I would support an elected upper House in Mr Brady: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. The spite of them. However, that is not what the Bill delivers. case is compelling. Ministers really cannot have it both We do not have time today to analyse the strengths and ways. weaknesses of the United States constitution. There can Much of what has been said about the Bill, however, certainly be gridlock between the Houses in the United concerns not party commitments but calculations of States, but the legislation it produces is at least as effective party advantage. We spend too much time here pursuing as ours, and Congress is certainly far better able to hold party advantage. To do so in changing our constitution the Executive to account than we are. However, is the would be not just wrong but contemptible. Bill before us today one that would excite Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Paine? Is it a great clarion call for Let me turn to the other parts of the Deputy Prime government of the people, by the people? It is not. Minister’s case—the points of principle on which I hope the House will judge any proposal to effect a Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): Will the hon. massive change in our constitutional arrangements. These Gentleman give way? are whether reform is needed and the argument that there is an absolute principle that those who legislate for the people should be chosen by the people. There has Mr Brady: No, I cannot give way again. been an effort to paint opposition to the Bill as reactionary Let us look at the reality of the Bill and some of the opposition to any change. Nothing could be further reasons why it should be rejected by any true advocate from the truth. Few on either side of this House or in of reform. Even if the Bill were enacted unamended the other House would dispute the need for reform. The and even if all the electoral cycles it envisages were allowed Lords is too big and it needs a route to retirement. It to take place and the reformed House foreshadowed by also needs a means of removing those found guilty of the Bill were implemented in full, we would have a bizarre serious crimes. All this, as my hon. Friend the Member and opaque arrangement—a House of indeterminate for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) said, could be enacted size, with an unknown number of Members appointed with little dissent here or in the other place. However, as Ministers by prime ministerial patronage; an desirable as reforming the Lords may be, I would contend appointments commission for the unelected Members that reforming the Lords without reforming this House responsible for vetting appointees for propriety, but not would be to miss the point. if they were appointed as Ministers; and a number of The public are not stupid: they know where power is bishops, as has already been said. located in our Parliament. They know that it is in this Instead of a simple, transparent democratic process, House and not the other. People certainly dislike politicians the Bill proposes an absurdly complex hybrid assembly: who break promises or who seem interested more in elections by not one but two different systems of seeking or holding on to office than in serving the proportional representation; and party lists to help to public good, but this is seen as a failing in the House of maintain the central powers of the political parties over Commons far more than in the House of Lords. People who will sit in the newly constituted Chamber. Far from notice that this House is poor at holding the Government the high principle of an elected Chamber, we have a to account. They see that we make only a desultory ridiculous fudge, justified by the Deputy Prime Minister effort at scrutinising legislation—although I trust that as a gradual move towards a wholly elected Senate, this Bill will be an exception. People see the damaging although he, like the Prime Minister on previous occasions, effects of patronage—against which Lord Ashdown has suggested with a nod and a wink that the second railed in the weekend press—but they know that patronage and third cycles may never happen, and that that will be is a greater impediment to the freedom of this House open to this House or indeed to the public in a referendum than it is to that of the Lords. We are agreed that the to decide. House of Lords needs reforming, but reforming the As an advocate both of reforming the Lords and of Lords while flunking the far more important task of introducing more democracy to our institutions, I shall strengthening the Commons would be profoundly mistaken. oppose this appalling Bill because if those are its aims, I believe it will fail utterly to achieve them. The Bill fails Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) to address the real problem in our democracy—a Commons (LD): The hon. Gentleman will know that the coalition that is so greatly dominated by the Government that it agreement is clear that we need to work to reform the fails to perform its core functions of holding Ministers 65 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 66 to account and of scrutinising legislation effectively. I votes—one for MPs, one for Lords—as there should be urge the House to vote against a Bill that is complex just one vote: for MPs. This House should continue where it should be simple, that preserves patronage to have the primary representative mandate from our instead of providing real democracy, and that yet again constituents. Parliament should consist of MPs with allows this House to avoid confronting the truth about legislative primacy by virtue of their primary mandate, its own shortcomings. with peers discharging their important revising, scrutinising role by virtue of their democratic but secondary mandate. That is an issue for Committee; for now, we have a duty 5.51 pm to give the Bill a Second Reading. Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): Despite his eloquence, I disagree with most of what the hon. Member for Oliver Heald: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Altrincham and Sale West (Mr Brady) said. There are the Joint Committee, which examined at the draft Bill, two issues that I wish to address from the outset. The suggested that the Government should have another first is the charge that now is not the right time. It never look at forms of indirect election that preserve the is the right time to introduce constitutional reform. supremacy of this House while still giving a democratic That is the dreary, weary excuse that anti-reformers use legitimacy to the other place? Does he agree that looking over and over again. It was used about devolution and again at some of those ideas would be well worth while? almost every other constitutional reform brought in by the last Labour Government whom I was proud to Mr Hain: I do if the hon. Gentleman means by that serve. What if great reformers over the years had decided the secondary mandate. that it was not the right time? What if Aneurin Bevan I remind the House that the last time the Commons had said, “I have this really good idea for a national voted on a very similar proposition to that put forward health service, but the country is broke and we are by the Deputy Prime Minister—the one put by my right probably going to lose the next election, so it is not the hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) in right time”? What if the suffragettes had said, “We’d March 2007—it voted decisively for an elected Chamber. really like the right to vote, but there is so much else A 100% elected Chamber was favoured by 337 votes to going on at the moment; let’s leave it to the men for a 224, and an 80% elected one by 305 votes to 267. Surely few more years”? this House of Commons, with hundreds of younger Secondly, if any of us had been starting from scratch MPs of a new generation, is not going to backtrack on and designing a second Chamber for a new, modern that vote? With new MPs of a new generation, we democracy, it is inconceivable that any of us would have should be increasing the majority for reform. come up with the House of Lords in its present incarnation. One of our greatest parliamentarians, Robin Cook, Of course we would not have done so; the very idea is told the House on 4 Feb 2003 that there was a real risible. The truth is the House of Lords is an anachronism, possibility of House of Lords reform becoming a and we all know it. Yes, it performs a valuable scrutinising parliamentary equivalent of “Waiting for Godot”: and revising role. Yes, it demonstrates a diligence often superior to that of the Commons. When I was a Minister “it never arrives and some have become rather doubtful whether it even exists, but we sit around talking about it year after appearing before a Lords Parliamentary Committee, year.”—[Official Report, 4 February 2003; Vol. 399, c. 152.] the standard of questioning was often more stringent and, I regret to say, its members often better informed For the very first time, all three parties have a manifesto than those in the Commons. There is, however, absolutely mandate for Lords reform. To betray that mandate no reason why that standard of performance could not would be to betray trust even more. This House has a be maintained, possibly even exceeded, by a democratic once in a p political lifetime opportunity to bring down second Chamber with new blood and new expertise. This the curtain on what must rank as the longest political is not about a personnel change; it is about accountability gridlock in the history of parliamentary democracy. It and democracy. is high time we resolved this once and for all, and brought our democracy fully into the 21st century by an In any case, the fact that the House of Lords performs historic decision for a democratic second Chamber. a valuable role is no reason to maintain it in its current constitutional form. It is a democratic farce, an arbitrary Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): In response mixture of a majority deriving their place from patronage to an earlier intervention, my right hon. Friend referred and a minority deriving it from titles inherited from a to indirect elections. Would it not be sensible, and liaison with a royal, centuries ago. It is a hangover from would it not have been sensible over the last 10 years, to pre-democracy days, a constitutional dinosaur. have seriously considered the alternative approach, as Labour has a proud record, going back to our first in India, of having an indirectly elected second Chamber Labour leader, Keir Hardie, of demanding a democratic with a small composition to reflect the regions and second Chamber. If we do not take this opportunity now, nations of this country rather than bring in a party-list through this Bill, to ensure that we have a democratically PR model of regional election? constituted second Chamber, we will be throwing away that opportunity—if not for ever, certainly for this Mr Hain: I am not sure that I agree with my hon. generation. It is a “now or maybe never” decision. Friend. What I favour is different proportions of party We will try to amend the Bill. For instance, I am a votes given to MPs then going into a regional pool, as supporter of the reformed democratic second Chamber the Bill envisages in its proposal for second votes to having a “secondary” not a “primary” mandate. That determine the numbers of party representatives in the principle, eloquently enunciated by Billy Bragg, will second Chamber, subject to the specified transitional help to address the crucial issue of the primacy of the arrangements. This closed list mechanism is not one Commons. I am not in favour of electors having two used in European, Welsh or Scottish elections, which 67 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 68

[Mr Hain] Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way as he chose to quite properly have open lists, but it is not appropriate, name me. Let me say that I am not sure it is a three-way in my view, for elections in which voters elect primary marginal, although I suspect that my constituents would legislators in Europe, Wales and Scotland. However, a be delighted to hear more. new democratic second Chamber would be unique among Does the hon. Gentleman accept that what he has our institutions because a direct mandate from voters described is very similar to what happens now? There would compromise the primacy of the Commons. That are extra representatives in Scotland, Wales and Northern is my view. If I win that argument in Committee, so be Ireland, in the European Parliament and on councils. it. I hope to do so, but I will still vote for the Bill Giving the people a say in the composition of the other because it is vital to get it out of the House of Commons House merely means that they will be able to exercise in good order so that it goes to the House of Lords. some direct influence, which does not happen when That is essential. Members are appointed through patronage.

Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I Oliver Heald: What is happening is the creation of a think the right hon. Gentleman has talked a lot of culture of the multi-Member constituency. An individual sense, but does he not accept that if Opposition Members constituent will be able to choose whether to go to the vote against the programme motion, it would seriously Liberal Democrat, the Conservative or the Labour jeopardise Lords reform and our ability to get it through? representative in Parliament, and I do not believe that that is good for our country. I believe that it is important Mr Hain: No, I do not. I am glad I took that for a Member of Parliament to represent all his constituents, intervention. I am a former business manager, as I used and for the constituents to know where to go when they to be Leader of the House, and I say that if a Government need help or want to raise an issue. That is good for with this majority want to get this Bill through, they them, and it is good for us. will get it through—with or without a programme motion. When we were in government, and we introduced the Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): Although I support system of programme motions, I cannot recall off hand— the Bill, as a Member representing one of the most there might be examples, but they would have to be marginal seats in the House—my majority is 389—I think searched for—either Liberal Democrats or Conservatives that my hon. Friend is making an extremely important ever voting for them. They consistently voted against our point which must be considered. I can imagine how, had programme motions—for honourable Opposition reasons I been elected under the proposed system in the last —and I when I was Leader of the House the current election, my Labour or Liberal Democrat opponent Leader consistently opposed my arguments for programme would have sought to undermine my position by claiming motions when we were introducing new Bills. It is the that he or she had a mandate equal to mine. duty of the Opposition to seek proper scrutiny of the Bill, which the programme motion does not allow. It is not our duty to provide extra time for the right-wing Oliver Heald: My hon. Friend is right to be concerned Bills that occupied the rest of the Queen’s Speech. about that. I shall vote enthusiastically for the Bill’s Second The Joint Committee took evidence from Australian Reading, and will follow that up by supporting the Bill senators. The Australian system is similar to that proposed in principle at the end of its parliamentary stages. It is in the Bill. Senator Ursula Stephens from the governing vital for it to leave the House of Commons and go to Labour party told us: the House of Lords—and let battle then commence. “I am allocated a number of seats that are not held by the Government in the lower House in my state. I look after those constituents who do not have a government representative. Those 6pm people might come to me about issues and legislation.” Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): At the Senator Lee Rhiannon from the Australian Greens time when the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) said: was Leader of the House, I was the shadow Leader who “we have nine Senators and only one Member in the House of opposed all the motions that he tabled. I do not remember Representatives. The issue of working with constituents is very agreeing with him very often, but I think that he said important for us and it takes up quite a bit of time.” something important today when he talked of the secondary Senator Michael Ronaldson of the Opposition Liberal mandate system, the vital need to ensure that this place Party said: retains primacy, and the need for effective government. “I do not think that you can make the assumption that you will My concerns about the proposals in the Bill relate to not be engaged in constituency-type work, particularly if the the central provision allowing the election of senators, elected Lords in an area—as Senator Stephens said—come from or representatives, for the regions. In future, instead of the other party. If you are a Member of the non-ruling party, the the simple constituency link that we have at present, Lords might find that they have more people knocking on their with one parliamentary representative being elected for doors than they might otherwise have anticipated.” each area, there will be a number of senators. In marginal When the Clerk of the House gave evidence, he spoke of seats a parliamentary representative for the Conservatives the danger of “constituency case tourism”. We must try may be elected to this House, and a parliamentary to avoid such constituency conflicts. representative for the Liberal Democrats may be elected to the senate. I see that the hon. Member for Cambridge Simon Hughes: I share my hon. Friend’s concern. (Dr Huppert) is looking at me. In a three-way marginal That is a real issue, and I think it will have to be such as the seat that he represents, there will be three addressed if we proceed with the Bill. There are ways in surgeries every week. which it could be dealt with: for example, it could be 69 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 70 agreed that Ministers would deal only with Members of It also worries me, although I understand the reasons the House of Commons when it came to constituency for it, that we have spent the last six months talking casework. about Leveson and the public inquiry into the press—we have had six months of politicians talking about journalists Oliver Heald: That issue is not addressed in the Bill. —and now we are to have a further nine months of politicians talking about politicians. If anything is a I mentioned the Clerk of the House a moment ago, bigger turn-off for the people of this country, I do not and he has appeared on cue! knowwhatitis. The power of the people is in this House, not at the other end of the building. That is why, when we are Mr Leech: The right hon. Lady will have a perfect arguing with the Lords about a Bill, they always give opportunity tomorrow evening to vote for the programme way eventually. When I was a Whip, I went down there motion and thus ensure that there is not too much and had discussions with them, as many other Members debate on the Bill. will have done. In the end, they say, “You are the elected House; you have your way.” I recall hardly any occasions Hazel Blears: I can tell the hon. Gentleman that when during my time here when, in the end, they have not I said that I was in two minds about the Bill, I meant caved in, because we are the elected House. that while one part of me says that it is a distraction, the I believe in efficient and effective government. I think other part says that it is one of the most cynical deceptions that it is something the Conservative party has stood for to be inflicted on the people of this country, for deeply over the years. We have given this country more than partisan reasons. 250 years of good government—or, at least, we have given The people who are promoting this Bill, supposedly a lot of it during that period. [Laughter.] I remember in the name of democracy, are using the language of the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) high moral purpose, but, as the hon. Member for Epping saying “It must be healed.” I agree: it must be Heald. Forest (Mrs Laing) said, the Bill is really motivated by Following the proposed changes, we will struggle to partisan low politics designed for party advantage. I have effective government. The Parliament Acts cannot have therefore decided to vote against the programme be used on every occasion. It is a nuclear option. We motion, in order to give the Bill as much scrutiny as rely on the Lords’ giving way, but the fact is that without possible. I am sick and tired of the people promoting conventions and arrangements between the Houses —some this Bill painting those of us who have genuine objections means of ensuring that we always prevail in the end—it to it as reactionary—diehards, dinosaurs, opposed to will be more difficult to ensure that we have effective reform. I say to them that nothing could be further government in this country. When a party makes promises from the truth. I am utterly opposed to privilege. The in its manifesto, it will not be able to deliver on them. last time we voted on these issues I voted to abolish the When we experience a crisis, as we have recently, it will House of Lords. If I had that option now, I would vote be difficult to introduce urgent measures with the necessary for it again. I believe we could have a unicameral system speed. with much more pre-legislative scrutiny and experts Let me make a suggestion. It is in the Joint Committee involved. The primacy of this elected House of Commons report, the alternative report and in my pamphlet, which to our constituents is the top priority for me. can be read on the website of the Society of Conservative Lawyers. Let us see whether we can avoid regional Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): The Liberal elections which provide a geographical power base, Democrats currently hold the balance of power in this which would mean the people at the other end of the Chamber, and it has been suggested that if the programme building representing a group of constituents from an motion is not passed tomorrow and if the Bill does not area. Let us consider indirect election. There are various pass, Liberal Democrat Members will vote against the different models. My right hon. and learned Friend the boundary changes. [Interruption.] I am glad to hear Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) mentioned them saying that that is the case. Does the right hon. the German model, and the right hon. Member for Lady agree that that illustrates what they would do if Neath mentioned the secondary mandate model. There they were to hold the balance of power in the upper are ways of doing this. House? They would hold Parliament to ransom over I support reform and I think that we should do it, but every issue that suited them. I do not agree with the Bill, and I believe that it needs to be looked at again. Hazel Blears: As ever, the hon. Gentleman makes a point that goes to the heart of this debate. I have included comments in my speech about squalid partisan 6.8 pm back-room deals. Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): I was in two I have the utmost respect for my right hon. Friend the minds about applying to speak in the debate, and I Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan remain deeply conflicted. That is partly because I honestly Johnson), and he made an excellent speech today. If he believe that taking an immense amount of time to were still present in the Chamber, however, I would ask debate the Bill is a distraction from some of the very him this question: he is a proponent of democracy, but real problems that face the country. With a million what is democratic about a 15-year term? The Chartists young people out of work, with families struggling to have a very proud history in my constituency of Salford, make ends meet and with one of the worst recessions with 250,000 people demonstrating for universal suffrage. that we have ever known, I feel that we would use the They wanted annual Parliaments. They have never achieved House’s time better not just in debating those subjects, that, but 15-year terms are the antithesis of anything but in debating action to tackle them. that could be called democratic. 71 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 72

[Hazel Blears] about pretty low politics. I believe they are a Trojan horse for the Liberal Democrats to sustain power and What is democratic about regional party lists, too? influence, and permanently hold the balance of power There has been a lot of talk today about patronage, in the second Chamber. The Liberal Democrat party which is how people find their way into the House of cannot win enough first votes, so it relies on back-room Lords at present. Patronage under regional party lists secretive squalid deals to get its own way: the Liberal would be many times worse than that. We should consider Democrats get proportional representation on closed the situation in other countries. Some 90% of the Members lists, and the Conservative party gets boundary changes of Parliament in Spain live within 50 miles of Madrid with the windfall of possibly 20 extra seats. because they know their position is dependent on the The alternative vote referendum showed what the patronage of a central party. Our Parliament is already British people really want. They want to elect a Government too London-centric, but that would be exacerbated. on a clear manifesto with clear policies, and for that Government to get on with governing the country. They (Eastleigh) (LD) rose— do not want a party who got fewer MPs at the last election to end up having Cabinet Ministers who have Hazel Blears: I do not have time to give way. no mandate to hold their post. I believe that one of the biggest problems facing this I believe that what we have here is people posturing as country and our democracy is the growth of a political democrats and masquerading as champions of the people. elite—a political class—and the consequent disaffection They say one thing, but they do another; that sounds of voters. This year’s Hansard Society annual audit of familiar to me. This is about self-interest, and what is political engagement makes very sad reading. It says: being done is untrustworthy and unworthy of this country. “The growing sense of indifference to politics highlighted in I certainly will not vote for this Bill as it stands. the last Audit report appears to have hardened into something more serious this year: the trends in indicators such as interest, knowledge, certainty to vote and satisfaction with the system of 6.16 pm governing are downward, dramatically so in some instances”. We have a problem in this House. In 1970, only 3% of Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): It is a MPs said they had come into Parliament through a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Salford political advisor or special advisor route. At the last and Eccles (Hazel Blears). I found that I could agree election, that figure had risen to 25%. That constitutes a with much of her speech—although certainly not all of political elite. it. That is also my view of this Bill: it is not a perfect Bill, but neither do I think the House of Lords is We must not for one moment think that if we have an perfect. That is why I am more than happy to vote for elected second Chamber, we will get an influx of young, the Bill on Second Reading, but I would not be prepared vibrant, democratic people from all walks of life. Some to support it in its current form on Third Reading. 40% of the Members of the US Senate are former politicians. Some 76% of Members of the Australian I have mulled over the idea of a Committee of the Senate have previously worked for political parties. whole House having 10 days to amend the Bill. Given They are staffers—they are people on the inside. How all the other important work this Government also have are we going to combat the problem of having a political to do, that may well be enough time for us to find elite if there is no place for independents? consensus. Indeed, I am hearing a lot of agreement on some points. I think there is consensus that we must Mr Hain rose— reduce the size of the second Chamber, for instance.

Hazel Blears: I am sorry, but I have given way twice Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: My hon. Friend has obviously and I shall now press on. read the timetable motion as carefully as I have. Does If we accept this dreadful proposal before us, may I she realise that it gives only two hours for Third Reading? make a couple of practical pleas? First, we must require As any votes will eat into that time, there may well not candidates to live in the areas they represent—not to be a Third Reading vote on a Bill that is of such great have an address of convenience there so that they can constitutional importance. live in London and travel up every so often. We have done that with police commissioners, and we can do it Harriett Baldwin: We could oppose Third Reading, with the second Chamber. Secondly, I want the second therefore, if we felt we had not achieved consensus in Chamber to take its work out across the country. If we this House. simply have a replica of our Chamber, we will have no There is also consensus in this House that anyone chance of combating political disaffection. The second who has been convicted of a serious crime should be Chamber could go out, take evidence, and have sessions kicked out. The cost of the second Chamber must be out in the country. My noble Friend Lord Adonis has reduced, too. I am not convinced on this point; I will suggested that it be based at Salford quays. I am not need quite a lot of convincing in respect of the Deputy necessarily making a plea for that today, but this is a Prime Minister’s earlier assertion that this proposal serious point. If we have a second Chamber, we must would be cost-neutral. change the way in which it works. We must make sure that, by analysing the functions, not the form, we end Jesse Norman: The cost figures have reached their up with a Chamber that will not challenge the primacy current level only by the entirely illegitimate manoeuvre of this House of Commons. of including costs—such as costs of the Commons I want to say a word about the politics. I believe the associated with the Lords—that have not yet been proposals in this Bill are a deceit. They are expressed in recognised in legislation, let alone achieved, as well as the language of high moral purpose, but they are really by ignoring the £85.7 million cost of five-yearly elections. 73 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 74

Harriett Baldwin: My hon. Friend makes some wise Session our proposals will carry the majority of the points, but it is unlikely that an elected Member of the House, so that we can look back on this opportunity to second Chamber would be able to get by with only one reform the House of Lords and say that we did not fall member of staff, which is an assumption made in the into the temptation to filibuster and talk out the Bill, costings. There are a number of questions about that but were able to leave behind, for future Parliaments, a issue, and I think we would all want the cost to be at more reformed second Chamber. least lower than it is now. Let me deal with the contentious areas, where there 6.23 pm might be more disagreement across the Floor of the Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and House. I am strongly in favour of the bishops continuing Hillsborough) (Lab): I think that this afternoon we have their constitutional role in the second Chamber. They established that the calumny that if someone is against play a valuable and important role, and reflect the fact this Bill they are against reform and modernisation has that we have an official Church of England role in our been laid to rest. It is absolutely clear that someone can constitution. be in favour of a very different second Chamber based Ian Lucas rose— on a very different franchise and be vehemently against what the Government propose in this Bill. Harriett Baldwin: I have given way twice, so unfortunately Secondly, I think that we have established that we I do not have time to do so again. genuinely need as much time as possible to debate this On the question of what voting system we use, I am Bill. That has been shown by the variety of views aware that the coalition agreement said that we would expressed, including by those who are in favour of the use proportional representation and that it has some Bill and will vote, at least in principle, for it tomorrow attractions. Some of the things we like about the second night. The views expressed this afternoon about the Chamber at the moment, such as the fact that some future of our constitution, the nature of our government, distinguished former Members of this House have been and the relationship between this Chamber and the appointed to it, could be continued were we to carry on second Chamber are so numerous that they demonstrate, with that voting system. I would fight for Baroness if ever it needed demonstrating, that we need not only Thatcher to be top of any list that the Conservative party time to scrutinise the Bill properly, but the constitutional would field, so from that point of view there are some convention advocated by at least half the Joint Committee. merits in the PR system. However, it is clear that in We need that constitutional convention for this reason: many countries where PR has been used it is an extremely this afternoon we have had demonstrated a number of unsatisfactory system. Israel elects its “Commons” on substantial constitutional changes introduced over the the basis of PR, which often ends up giving the balance past 15 years, many of which have proved to be successful, of power to undesirable elements. I would have a significant but the idea of one fundamental constitutional change concern about that. taken in isolation demonstrates that we do not have I think we all agree that Cross Benchers play an joined-up thinking in this country about where our extremely important role, and if I were to move in any constitution is going. We have, as the Deputy Prime direction from what is proposed, it would be to give an Minister himself demonstrated this afternoon, the real increased weight to them. However, I now wish to danger of the break-up of the United Kingdom and the discuss something that has not been mentioned—the vote on the future of Scotland. We have the McKay geographical problems of what is being proposed—and commission on existing devolution. We have propositions relate it to my private Member’s Bill in the last Session on a written Bill of Rights. We have, undoubtedly, in the on the West Lothian question. In its current form, the future a new relationship between the United Kingdom, Bill would clearly exacerbate problems with the West in whatever guise, and the European Union and the Lothian question. We have yet to see the report from eurozone. We also have a range of minor constitutional the West Lothian commission, but I anticipate it in this changes that have already happened. In those circumstances, Session of Parliament. A further look at how the upper taking the future of the second Chamber out of the House worked would clearly need to be taken because equation and dealing with it separately does not make of the West Lothian question, so I throw out a proposal sense. Furthermore, and fundamentally, we have also to colleagues: rather than have the much larger geographical had demonstrated this afternoon the fact that certain constituencies proposed in the Bill, let us do away with individuals on both sides of this House—those on my the geographical link altogether and have national side and among Liberal Democrats—do see our proportional weighting in the allocations in the upper constitution in different terms. House. Such an approach would completely sever the I have also learned this afternoon, although I really geographical link, which I know a lot of colleagues have already knew this, that quite a lot of people do not expressed concerns about, and would solve the West understand the constitutions of other countries. I can Lothian question. only presume that those who have spoken—good Labour friends of mine—do understand what they are proposing Mr Gray rose— when they suggest a system that would actually have the Executive outside Parliament rather than in it. My hon. Harriett Baldwin: I have taken two interventions and Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) have only a couple of minutes left. I want to allow many suggested that, and my right hon. Friend the Member colleagues to contribute, so unfortunately I will not give for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) way. came close to suggesting it. The Liberal Democrats— I wish to conclude by saying that I hope we can use through the development of proportional representation; the 10 days available to move forward constructively through the break with the single-Member constituency; with the things the House agrees on. I hope that in this through the advocacy, as is in this Bill, of being able to 75 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 76

[Mr David Blunkett] A former colleague in this House, the right hon. , would remind us of the story of when Mr Gandhi appoint Ministers who are not from or within Parliament, came to England and was asked by British reporters but who are from outside it and then do not have to be what he thought of democracy in England and he part of the Parliament; and through the criticism of the replied that he thought it would be a jolly good idea. way in which the Government within Parliament do not That shows our conceit about ourselves and elsewhere, allow for scrutiny—are demanding a debate, and it is as we are not entirely democratic. Tony Benn also used one that we should have, about whether we should to point out that the Crown resides not at the end of the fundamentally change our constitution for the future. I Mall, but in Downing street. This House is an appointed am against that change; I believe that we should elect a House, in one way. The occupant of the Chair might Government. A clear mandate from the people for a not be directly chosen by Her Majesty, but is approved Government is something people in this country have by her. valued. We can do that only by the single-Member We have all sort of tangles in an ancient constitution constituency, the electoral system we have and the and they are often difficult to reconcile, but my whole Parliament to which we give primacy. parliamentary career—although “career” is a rather grand word that might imply some sort of distinction—has Hazel Blears: Does my right hon. Friend agree that been based on the quest for us to become a democratic the issue of single terms of 15 years goes right to the nation in which everyone elected here speaks on behalf heart of accountability and democracy? of someone. That is what causes me the difficulty with the Bill, and the Deputy Prime Minister did not answer Mr Blunkett: That is at the heart of the criticism of my concern. I do not think that he feels democracy, and this Bill. Once legitimacy is given to elected politicians my disappointment is that, over the years, the Liberal without the accountability of their having to seek re-election Democrats have stood for democratic issues and have and be re-elected, the very fundamentals of democracy stood against guillotines—in fact, I voted many times are undermined. That is because, as I am on the record with them—but since they went into coalition, that has saying on the morning after the election, democracy is all been tipped out. That is at the heart of my not simply about electing people; it is about being able disillusionment about the intent of fine men who stand to get rid of them. The admirable speech made at the up and make bold promises. Magna Carta lecture by the Archbishop of Canterbury I genuinely believe that people should just read the on 15 June demonstrated that par excellence. Bill. It is unconscionable to say that someone must stand for election, an idea on which the Deputy Prime Simon Hughes: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept Minister has based his Bill, but can never be accountable. that nothing in this Bill suggests that Governments We are reverting to the aristocracy of the 19th century, would not be formed on the simple principle of needing who were all Members of the House of Lords but could to command a majority in the House of Commons? conduct their business from the south of France. Indeed, That is as it has been and as it is, and there is no as I look towards my own possible retirement, I think I proposal that it should not continue in that way. If that probably should go to the Lords. I do not know whether is the case, the threat, and the suggestion he makes, that I have 15 years left—[HON.MEMBERS: “Of course you electing people to the other place would change that is have.”] No, I am not sure about that; we may be running entirely unsupported by anything in the Bill. out of time. It is an unconscionable idea, but how agreeable. Perhaps our bankers should all become Members Mr Blunkett: I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman of the House of Lords. They would not have to be here read the Bill, because it suggests, for the first time in our at all. history, that Ministers can be appointed outwith the There are many flaws in the Bill. However much I second Chamber but report to it. We have always had to might believe in the necessity of the affirmation and appoint people to that Chamber, who have worked consent, rather than the casually given acquiescence, of within it and have continued to be a part of it, if they the people, I cannot support it. As for the very idea that were to be Ministers. we can put everything to a referendum, I tried and struggled to get a referendum on Maastricht, which was The fundamental rub I foresee is that we will create absolutely impossible, but we can have referendums on mistrust in the electorate. We will say that we are going whether I tie my laces or on whether to have an elected to replace people who are unaccountable and not legitimate, mayor for wherever. That is the contradiction in this but then we will put up regional party lists—in the case whole farrago. of Yorkshire, the region covers 5 million people—and simply tell electors to tick the box on the list. People will I say to my Liberal Democrat colleagues, those good turn on us, because that is a delusion. That is why we souls sitting on the Benches in front of me who have should vote against the Bill and against the programme been led to contradicting everything that they have motion. stood for as long as I have been in this House, that they do not want elections to be held after people have been effectively shoo’d into the House of Lords. I cannot go 6.30 pm for that. The constituencies are bigger than countries, Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): It so we will have 11 Members of Parliament, but who will is a great pleasure to follow the former Home Secretary, they be representing? I do not know, and I do not think the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and that it will work. Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), and to hear his views. The Liberal Democrats cannot trust the Government Many interesting views have been expressed; clearly the or the people on this one and they want to introduce a House is well divided. voting system that is alien to the British people and that 77 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 78 has been repudiated comprehensively. This process makes clearly that they did not want to move from first past the House look ridiculous. We have crises facing us and the post, even though it was not PR that was put to this guillotine motion—we are back to them, despite them. the Leader of the House’s attestation otherwise—must I must ask those who say that clause 2 will protect be defeated. I urge Members, however they feel, to and provide security for the primacy of this House: allow the proposals to be debated properly. how? There is only one legal basis for that primacy, and that is the Parliament Act, but we are not going to 6.35 pm Parliament Act every Bill that comes through. All the other details such as the Salisbury convention and the Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): It convention on statutory instruments are just that— is a pleasure and a privilege to follow the hon. Member conventions. If I were elected to the other place, I would for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd). I shall be in the say, “The Salisbury convention no longer exists, because Lobby with him to vote against the programme motion the basis of it was the fact that some people were elected and against the Bill, as it is a bad Bill. and some were not.”If people in the other place are elected, I am not one of those people who has great admiration they will have the right to say, “My electorate are as for the House of Lords. I agree with Bagehot, who was important as your electorate, and a great deal bigger, quoted earlier, that one need only go along the corridor and I have been elected by millions of votes, so I will and look at it more often. It is not such a wonderful place, vote against what you in the House of Commons believe.” even though there are some excellent and extraordinarily It will be impossible to prevent freely elected people capable people there. from doing that, particularly when they will never be I believe in democracy and in improving our constitution, accountable for anything because they will never go but the proposals do not do that at all. They diminish back to the electorate, and I see nothing apart from the democracy in this country by setting up a counter-Chamber Parliament Acts to prevent the other House from at the other end of the corridor. The problem, which challenging the primacy of this House. That takes us has been mentioned in many excellent speeches, is that back to the point made by the right hon. Member for we have an over-mighty Executive and that this House Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) that has not kept as many powers as it should have done to the proposals will not affect the Government. Ministers itself over the years. I have not heard one speech from may be appointed, but by blocking legislation they the people in favour of the proposal that told us how could do exactly what the Lib Dems are doing in this they would prevent power from being taken away from debate: blackmail whatever Government are in office so this Chamber if the Bill were passed. as to get their own way and get posts in the Government. The Bill will not improve the accountability of the Executive but will set them free to do more of what they Simon Hughes rose— want to do while being less accountable. So, the first argument in favour of it, which is that it improves Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Before democracy, falls. The second supportive reason given the right hon. Gentleman begins his intervention, I by the Deputy Prime Minister was that all the other counsel him that those who persistently intervene may countries he could think of had an elected second get dropped down the list. I hope that the House Chamber, which, as right hon. and hon. Members have understands what will happen if there are continual corrected him, turns out not to be 100% true. Even if it interventions from the same Members. were true, virtually all the countries that have such a second Chamber have a written constitution to deal with Simon Hughes: I hope that the hon. Member for precisely the matter covered by clause 2, which is primacy. Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) accepts With no written constitution and elections to the second that, at the moment, at the other end of the building House, we will lose the primacy of this House. there is clearly no party with an overall majority. Indeed, everybody is in a minority. He is worried about having Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Does one period only for election and no need for re-election, my hon. Friend not also accept that right now one but what would his alternative be that would end patronage could argue that areas of this country, particularly and heredity in the second Chamber, if it is not something Scotland, are over-governed as regards democracy? like this Bill?

Graham Stringer: I want to increase democracy where Graham Stringer: That is the easiest question I have it is effective so that people feel that they are changing ever been asked in this Chamber: I would abolish the things, not being left behind and lost by politicians. As other House, for the simple reason that, in the constitutional my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and position that we are in, it is difficult to improve and Eccles (Hazel Blears) said, the idea behind the genesis democratise it without diminishing ourselves or having of the Bill is not the improvement of democracy but the a written constitution. improvement of the prospects of the Liberal Democrats, Policies and manifestos have been mentioned a number who are frightened of the prospect of democracy and of times. On the day after the general election, it was my the electorate at the next general election. What they are view that all the parties had lost. The advantage of our trying to secure in the Bill is proportional representation system is that the core parts of manifestos are voted for. in the other place so that they can be in government for If a party becomes the Government, it gets the rest of ever, but I do not see my job as coming to this House to its manifesto because it put that manifesto before people, put the Lib Dems in government for ever. To achieve but when none of the parties has won and there are that, they obviously have to introduce a system of PR, three differing commitments on House of Lords reform— but just over 12 months ago the electorate said quite incidentally, none of those commitments is embodied in 79 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 80

[Graham Stringer] Jesse Norman: My hon. Friend makes a shrewd point very quickly and elegantly. the Bill before us—it is difficult to understand how my The Bill is being pushed through the Commons by Front Benchers or Front Benchers from other parties the Government—before the summer, on a whipped vote could say, “This Bill is legitimate to put before people and with a guillotined debate—but the central question and we have the will of the people behind us.” We concerns the likely constitutional crisis that will arise simply do not have the will of the people behind us on from the Bill, which will transform the Lords into a those manifestos and the only answer—again, the Lib Chamber competing with the Commons. The result will Dems are particularly frightened of the electorate—is be gridlock, cronyism and a rise in special-interest politics. to put the proposal to a referendum. The US offers a useful cautionary tale. The American 6.43 pm political system is manifestly struggling: beset by gridlock; vulnerable to powerful special interests, from the gun Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) lobby to the American Association of Retired Persons; (Con): It is with a heavy heart that I speak to the Bill and its politicians elected by corporate lobbyists through before the House. I am a reformer and I would welcome political action committees, recently liberated by the a well-crafted Lords reform Bill without election that Supreme Court from any spending constraints under reduced the size of the upper House, removed those the first amendment. The two Houses have repeatedly who have committed serious criminal offences, improved found it impossible to achieve consensus on important the scrutiny of legislation, strengthened the appointments legislation. Pork-barrel has been replaced by stand-off. process, reduced political patronage, converted the President Obama’s health care Bill is a classic example hereditary peers to life peers, and separated the peerage and it ended up in the Supreme Court. as such from the legislature. Those measures would constitute a great reforming Bill and would, I suspect, pass through this House on a free vote. This Bill, however, Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): is a hopeless mess. Is not my hon. Friend adverting to the fundamental Members of the House can properly differ on the conundrum at the heart of the Government’s presentation merits of the underlying issues. What they cannot differ of the Bill? On the one hand, they are arguing for a on are the flaws in the Bill itself. It is deeply confused more legitimate House; on the other, they are arguing and, indeed, dangerous legislation. It will prevent real that there will be no change in the relationship between reform. It will reduce diversity and deep expertise in our the two Houses. It does not add up. political system. It would be a catastrophe for this country if the Bill were ever enacted. Jesse Norman: My hon. Friend is exactly right. As my David Lloyd George famously referred to the House noble Friend Lord Forsyth put it, what would be the of Lords as Mr Balfour’s poodle, but if the Bill goes point of electing these people if not to give them more through we will have Mr Clegg’s lapdog—a Chamber power? Exactly the same thing as has happened in the full of elected party politicians. US will happen here. I refer my colleagues and Members There has also been an important failure of due across the House to Lord Pannick’s brilliant memorandum process. The Government originally worked hard to on the issue, which has been published this afternoon. establish a consensus on the Bill, but without success. Lord Pannick is widely regarded as one of the most The Joint Committee sat for longer than any in recent excellent lawyers and advocates of his generation, and memory. Because of its internal disagreements, it was is specifically expert in the Parliament Acts. He is also forced to put more issues to the vote than any recent precisely the kind of person who would never be willing Committee. It even produced an unprecedented minority to stand for election to a new Senate. In his words: report, signed by six Privy Counsellors, but the views of “The Bill does not adequately address the central issue of the Joint Committee has barely been heeded by the constitutional concern: the fact that a House of Lords most of Government. Its key recommendations were that an whose members will be elected will almost certainly be much issue of this constitutional magnitude required a referendum more assertive than the unelected House of Lords and reluctant and that the crucial clause governing the relationship to give way.” between Lords and Commons should be entirely rethought. Lord Pannick states that the Parliament Acts Those recommendations have been ignored or brushed “only relate to the end of the legislative process, and not the aside. The result is that important matters have been day-to-day conventions which (at present) result in the Lords introduced without any pre-legislative scrutiny. Those giving way to the Commons. Indeed, the Parliament Acts do not include a revised clause 2 on the relations between the apply at all to Bills introduced in the House of Lords or to Houses, and a party list voting system. Instead, the subordinate legislation. Government have treated the votes of a highly divided The crucial question is this: should the Bill seek to regulate all Committee as a consensus when they were nothing of these matters, or leave them to convention? If it leaves them to the kind. The Government refused to allow the Committee convention, then the result will be disputes between the two to publish the costs of the draft Bill, and refused to competing chambers. If it regulates these issues, then the result will be that relations between the chambers become justiciable in schedule a debate on its report, as is normal practice. law, as they did over the Hunting Act, which went all the way to They have rushed to get the Bill into Parliament before the Supreme Court.” the summer. Mr Gray: As evidence of the lack of consensus that Mr Harper: The Joint Committee considered the my hon. Friend so well describes, has he ever attended question of putting powers in the Bill and clearly any Second Reading debate in which every speech of recommended that we should not go there; it would be any substance at all was against the principle behind the dangerous and it would open up the Bill to interference Bill? by the courts. We listened to the Committee very carefully. 81 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 82

Jesse Norman: I am grateful to the Minister for which have still not been resolved. The lesson is that a stating that he wishes to be impaled on the first horn of comprehensive and coherent view is needed of the the dilemma: in the absence of regulation that would relationship between the individual and the state, and of render the actions of the Houses justiciable, he wishes what powers should be exercised at national, regional to impale himself on the horn of constant gridlock and and community level, before constitutional reform is competition between the two sides. undertaken. Lord Pannick concludes that “the Government have, hitherto, failed to recognise the difficulty”— Mr MacNeil: Are not the hysterics we are hearing in the House today reminiscent of the hysterics heard in failed to recognise the difficulty— 1979 about a Scottish Assembly, and in 1997 about a “and the importance of the constitutional issue arising from a Scottish Parliament? There are hysterics only within decision to elect 80% of the House of Lords.” these four walls, but when these things actually happen, Members of the House of Commons, Lord Pannick the sky does not fall in. is no partisan, no party politician. His is quiet but devastating criticism. Perhaps the Minister can enlighten Ian Austin: As I said, I supported the proposals for us about what external advice the Government took devolution, but I think the previous Government made when they reformulated clause 2. We now know which a mistake in not undertaking them as part of a far-reaching, of the two options he proposes to take, so I need not ask comprehensive and coherent view about the arrangements him. He proposes not to allow the judges in, but to leave for governing Britain as a whole. Reform of the House future disputes between the two Houses to the conventions of Lords needs to be properly thought through as part —and a thoroughly unsatisfactory compromise that is. of a wider package of constitutional reforms to deal In politics, as in all else, timing is everything. That applies with the regional and national imbalances that are the in particular to voting against one’s own Government result of stalled devolution. for the first time, which is not something to be wasted For example, a renewed approach to regional government on a small measure. Luckily, however, this Bill makes it is needed. It is ironic that the Bill proposes that Members very easy. There is a fundamental issue of constitutional be elected from the English regions, which the Government principle at stake; the Bill is a hopeless mess; it is in no have been doing all they can to abolish in all other sense a piece of Conservative legislation; it lacks any respects. They claimed that the regions did not exist genuine manifesto commitment; it proposes a new upper when they abolished the regional development agencies, Chamber that will be less expert, less diverse and more regional spatial planning and all the rest. We have expensive than the present one, let alone one after regional government in this country in the NHS, the sensible reforms; and the issue is absolutely irrelevant to police, planning, transport policy, housing and regeneration, the overwhelming need to put out the fire in the economic but they are run by faceless civil servants in England, engine room. I shall be voting against it and I would and by politicians in London, Scotland and Wales. I venture to suggest that the Bill is such that all MPs, would prefer to have proper regional government and Conservative or not, have a constitutional obligation to proper regional accountability for those powers and vote against it. Only thus can we rid our country of— then to establish a revising second Chamber drawn from the regional assemblies. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The Government are proposing far-reaching reforms, Hon. Members: Hear, hear! which have huge implications for the way the country is run, and are doing so without a referendum. We had to Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! have referendums for voting systems, for Scottish and Welsh devolution, for a regional assembly in the north-east and for directly elected mayors in some quite small 6.52 pm cities, but the people of Britain will have no say in huge Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): It is a great pleasure changes to their Parliament. to follow the hon. Member for Hereford and South The central question is whether the House of Lords Herefordshire (Jesse Norman), who, if the proposals should be elected. I do not think it is possible to defend, are passed, would end up being represented by the same as a point of principle, appointments and patronage. I regional list of senators as myself in Dudley—although am a democrat and I am in favour of devolving power how anyone could represent effectively both a rural to the people. That is one of the reasons I became interested community such as Hereford and a former industrial in politics and got involved: I wanted to ensure that centre such as the black country is something we might ordinary people have as much power as possible over ponder during the course of this debate. the way the decisions that affect them in their daily lives I have always believed that the House of Lords are taken. Clearly, the current system is one of appointment, should be reformed. It is clearly too big; it is indefensible not election, but what we have to decide is whether the that hereditary peers remain; and it is completely wrong changes that the Government propose are appropriate that Members can fail to turn up for years and retain and will do the job. their membership, when they would be booted off a First, whatever the Government say, having an elected local authority if they failed to attend for six months. House of Lords will inevitably change the relationship That said, however, there are major problems with the between the two Houses. That is bound to happen. The Government’s proposals. Bill promises that this House will retain primacy, but First, the lesson of Scottish and Welsh devolution is simply asserting that and ensuring that it happens in that constitutional reform cannot be undertaken piecemeal. practice are very different. It is not credible to say that Those changes, which I supported, resulted in imbalances nothing will change, when it is inevitable that people between Scotland and Wales and England and its regions, who have been elected will claim a democratic mandate 83 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 84

[Ian Austin] as an attempt by the Bill’s proponents to force through what they must know to be at best unjustified, and at and assert their authority. Secondly, there is no question worst indefensible, change. but that elected Members of the second House will Surely the supporters of the Bill have recognised the claim democratic legitimacy in our constituencies. That weaknesses of the arguments that they advance. They is bound to happen. In this debate and during the must acknowledge, for instance, as already mentioned detailed scrutiny of the Bill that follows it, I want to see on many occasions today, the fallacy of suggesting that how the Government and this House will deal with senators elected for a single 15-year term, with no chance those huge questions. of re-election and no chance of entry to the Commons There are other issues we have to deal with. It is or of deselection, will be accountable to the electorate. pretty clear that 400 new senators will bring huge additional Even hon. Members who passionately support the creation costs. They will immediately demand the same level of of a fully elected House of Lords must see that for the resources, staff and offices and all the rest as we have, half-baked illogical muddle that it is, creating powerful even though they will have no real constituency. Of those and in reality unaccountable senators cloaked by the 400, the west midlands will have about 35 representatives illusion of accountability. elected from a regional list. Voters will have very little idea who they are voting for. I spent the weekend asking In the light of the Bill’s multiple flaws, one has to people in Dudley if they could name their MEPs. wonder what motivates support for this reform. It would Michael Cashman and the other six west midlands be of little credit to hon. Members, for instance, if a Bill MEPs do a good job, but the current system ensures of such scale and magnitude were to pass simply as that almost no one knows who their MEPs are. I take some grubby trade-off for boundary reform. I hope more than a passing interest in politics and I struggle to Members across the House will act not on short-term name all seven of them off the top of my head. interests, but with a mind to the enduring consequences of reform, for I strongly doubt that in years to come the What I do know is that the introduction of a regional creation of an expensive, unaccountable and constitutionally list system for those elections has resulted, to our great unbalanced House of senators will be seen as much of a shame, in Britain being represented in the European legacy for this Parliament, and it is certainly one with Parliament, for the first time, by people standing for a which I would not wish to have my name associated. racist and fascist party. It is pretty clear to me that if we go ahead with a similar system for a second Chamber, I want to talk about what I believe would be lost if all sorts of cranks and extremists will get elected. the Bill succeeds. I remember that one of the first events that I hosted in Parliament was as the newly elected The idea of people being elected for a 15-year non- Chair of the Navy group of the all-party group for the renewable term is appalling. One of the reasons that armed forces. Coming from a Navy family and a Navy politicians work hard, particularly in marginal constituency, I thought I was quite safe in my knowledge constituencies, is that we have to answer for our views of the subject, until I realised that at that dinner I would and actions at the ballot box. The proposed system, be joined by three former Secretaries of State for Defence, which prevents people from being held to account for two past Chiefs of the Defence Staff and a former First their actions by seeking re-election, appears to be based Sea Lord. I believe that 17 Lords previously held one or on the most appalling elitist view that listening to the more of these roles and bring an incomparable level of public and taking their views into account is a bad thing. knowledge and experience of our armed forces to the Although I am in favour of democracy and elections, upper House. I shall be following this debate and the subsequent That pattern is replicated throughout the Lords, with scrutiny of the Bill and amendments with great interest, experts from medicine, law, diplomacy, MI5 and MI6, to see whether the concerns I have expressed today can charities, business, the arts and many other fields. They be dealt with. bring an unparalleled wealth of expertise and experience, and as the Mayor of London said, despite what might 6.59 pm be described as their more mature exterior, they bring a depth of wisdom that allows them to see even the most Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): I am grateful for minor flaws in the legislation which it is, after all, their the opportunity to contribute to the debate, although job to scrutinise line by line. regretfully it is to express my opposition to the Bill. It is a pleasure to follow many of my hon. Friends who, despite their considerable loyalty to the Government, Conor Burns: My hon. Friend is making an incredibly feel compelled to reject this piece of political vandalism. powerful point about the difference between this place They have eloquently outlined the numerous faults in and the other place—that in the other place, in order to this ill-conceived Bill and I shall add briefly to their win the vote, one has to win the argument. That is not arguments. always the case in this Chamber. The Bill contains rushed, illogical and poorly constructed proposals which bring no discernible benefit to Parliament Caroline Dinenage: My hon. Friend makes an excellent or to the nation. I am struck by the arrogance of the point. After speaking to many Members of the House Bill’s proponents who, neglecting the relative brevity of of Lords, I know that most would not dream of putting their place in the long history of Parliament, seek to themselves forward for election. After, in many cases, a force through a Bill with unknown consequences for the lifetime of experience, working their way to reach the future governance of this country. Constitutional change very top of their chosen field, why would they submit stands apart from other legislative Acts, and to seek to themselves to what is, in effect, a popularity contest? limit the time spent debating such significant and irreversible They will not, and their experience and knowledge will change is an insult to this Parliament, and could be seen be irrevocably lost. 85 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 86

It is a great sadness to me that there seems to be a the role of bishops and the established Church, and the generation of MPs who have never worked in anything dual mandate between the other place and this place. other than politics, yet who now presume to sweep aside That is why we need proper, detailed investigation of people with decades of hard-earned experience in their the Bill. The programme motion will not allow for that. chosen field, to replace them with party political favourites. If the change is to last down the centuries, does it matter As a Conservative and as a reformer, I acknowledge if we have another five, seven, eight, 10 or 15 days to that the House of Lords is in need of change to cut look at it? If the Government are serious about major down the size, to weed out the cheats and criminals, and constitutional reform, they should allow us the time to introduce a more independent process of selection, and space to consider it. but all that can be done without recourse to this ill- There is also, as the hon. Member for Penrith and conceived, unwelcome and damaging reform Bill. It is The Border (Rory Stewart) suggested, the need for a therefore with a heavy heart that I urge hon. Members referendum. We are beginning to move towards different to vote against the Government and to reject the Bill. forms of democracy, and whether we like it or not in this place, referendums play an increasingly powerful 7.4 pm part in that. So if, as has been noted, we have had referendums on city Mayors and on voting systems, and Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): It is a we are having the farce of elections for police commissioners great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Gosport in the depths of November, why do we not have a (Caroline Dinenage). I am in the rather curious position referendum on a major piece of legislative change which of supporting the coalition Bill, in contrast to the hon. will affect the governance of the entire country? It is Lady. I am in favour of reform of the House of Lords. right that the people have a say on that, as my hon. Friend The tide of time—[Interruption.] No, I am in favour of the Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) suggested. it now, which is why I will vote for its Second Reading. The tide of time is in favour of democracy and we need The Bill contains numerous problems. The 15-year to accept that. term is very difficult to accept as a democrat. Personally, I am in favour of two 10-year terms, but that throws up Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): equal problems in terms of electioneering. Mr Deputy Speaker, considering the interest that all three of us have, I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): Could the has told his father about his view? hon. Gentleman point to the occasion on which there was a referendum on removing the hereditary peers Tristram Hunt: I should declare an interest. My father from the House of Lords, which one might concede was sits in the House of Lords, as do the fathers of other a big constitutional change? Labour Members of Parliament. He, too, is in favour of reform of the House of Lords, and in favour of democracy Tristram Hunt: I think that removing the hereditary in relation to it. peers was so obvious a change that we did not need a referendum, but this is not an obvious change. There The tide of time is in favour of democracy. Many in are major complexities, as we have just teased out, with the Chamber might find that an uncomfortable reality, regard to justiciability between the two Houses and but we cannot go around the world preaching democracy composition. All sorts of questions need to be answered. to developing and other nations without having that in the second Chamber. I entirely accept that legislative I also agree with the change from 300 to 450 Members, wisdom comes in many forms, and I acknowledge the because I think that the initial proposal for a wholly expertise in the unelected second Chamber, as the hon. professionalised and salaried body of 300 was incorrect. Member for Gosport suggested. That is why I am in However, if Ministers think that the Independent favour of an 80% elected, 20% appointed upper House. Parliamentary Standards Authority will simply allow My perfect model would be 75% elected, 25% appointed them to decide who is paid what, it is clear that they because when one drills down into the absolute expertise have not looked at the evidence its representatives gave in the upper House, one would probably get to about to the Joint Committee on the draft House of Lords 25%. Reform Bill. I think that Ministers will find that IPSA will take a great deal more control of what happens to Rory Stewart: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Members of the other place than they believe. I am in before it goes round preaching about democracy to the favour of keeping the bishops and the established Church, rest of the world, Britain should take the example of and the appointment of Ministers seems exactly right. the rest of the world by not introducing major constitutional change without either a two-thirds vote or a referendum? Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend is deliberately provoking me. Only this afternoon the Church of England decided Tristram Hunt: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his that it cannot even decide when it will decide on whether intervention and I wholly agree; I shall come on to that. to have women bishops. Surely we should at least say I am in favour of the referendum, as the Labour party that the bishops are allowed to remain in the House of rightly proposes, on this major piece of constitutional Lords only if there are to be women bishops. change. I served on the Joint Committee, and a number of Tristram Hunt: That might be a successful way through points emerged from our investigation. This is a serious, the current difficulties in the Synod, so my hon. Friend problematic reform, as the hon. Member for Hereford should put that forward. and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) suggested, There are of course an awful lot of reservations throwing up detailed problems about the interrelationship about the Bill. We have touched on the issue of justiciability between the Houses, the fundamental change to Parliament, between the Commons and the Lords, a point to which 87 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 88

[Tristram Hunt] I stand by the manifesto commitment I stood on two years ago to work to build a consensus and deeply the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire regret that we have been unable to do so. also referred, and convention versus statute. It also seems to me that there is no reason why a democratically Mr Gray: My hon. Friend alleges that no consensus elected second Chamber will not intervene on Finance has been achieved, but surely the real feeling in this Bills. If they are elected by taxpayers, why should they afternoon’s debate shows that there is a strong consensus not have their say on Finance Bills? We do not seem to that the Bill should be consigned to the dustbin of history? have sorted out the conflict resolution procedures that will be needed between the Houses. Steve Brine: Although it is tempting to agree with my The bigger problem relates to what happens in Scotland. hon. Friend, there is quite a long way to go on Second If there is a vote in favour of an independent Scotland, Reading, but I certainly feel that there are straws in the the entire premise of this Bill will be undone, because wind. the role of the House of Lords will have to take on a far I think that there is plenty we can do to reform the more federal nature with regard to the interrelationship other place. My right hon. and learned Friend the between the kingdoms of the Crown under the Crown Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) touched in Parliament in the House of Lords, but perhaps the on a number of things we could do without abolishing timeline will allow for all that. the House of Lords or jamming up Parliament for On a broader point, when there is major constitutional months, if not years, with a clumsy Bill that seems to reform there is always fear of the unknown. The Second get worse the more times I read it. Reform Act was described as a leap in the dark, and To be blunt, I think that we are approaching the Thomas Carlyle wrote lurid pamphlets about its whole business the wrong way round. Reform of Parliament consequences. Actually, it resulted in a strengthening of should start with a simple question: what do we want Parliament and of the democratic process. Britain did this House and the other place to do? I think that we not fall apart, and the same was true of the Third want a second Chamber that acts as a revising Chamber, Reform Act and votes for women. It comes down to largely free from the politics of the first Chamber and, whether we believe in the purifying effects of democracy. ultimately, always subservient to it. In other words, Do Members believe in what we on the Labour side purely with regard to the roles performed and the way used to call “the good old cause”, which goes right back we make the laws of this land, I think that we have it to Lilburne, Rainsborough, Paine and all the rest? The about right in the United Kingdom. We can argue until Bill has many problems but, ultimately, if we believe in the cows come home, and no doubt until they go out democracy we have to support it. again, about who should sit in this bicameral Parliament 7.13 pm but, when it come to the system of checks and balances on the Government of the day, I think that most of the Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): It is a pleasure to sensible people I represent would say, “If it ain’t broke, follow the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central don’t fix it.” (Tristram Hunt). I listened carefully to the Deputy Prime Minister’s speech this afternoon—I listened dutifully Let me turn to who sits in the upper House. What is and did not intervene. He seems to have become the proposed in the Bill is a host of senators—let us call Andy Murray of this House; he has gone from being a them that for now—who would sit for an unrepeatable set up and at break point two years ago to being in deep term of 15 years. From what I have heard so far this trouble in the fourth set this afternoon. I suggest that afternoon, that seems to be at the heart of the concerns part of the reason is that his arguments seem to centre on right across this House. The record will show that the point that we do not want to spend a huge amount I asked the Deputy Prime Minister in this House on of Government time on the Bill and just need to get on 20 March whether he thought that with it and get it through—we basically just need to “a 15-year senator who is unable to stand for re-election is more agree with Nick. However, from what I have heard over or less accountable than a current Member of the other place”.— the last few hours, very few of the Members who have [Official Report, 20 March 2012; Vol. 542, c. 639.] spoken so far seem to agree with Nick, but there is still I have to say that the answer I received was hardly time and, of course, there is tomorrow. convincing. The current Leader of the House of Lords, Many Members have said that the Government should Lord Strathclyde, helped greatly when he told the BBC not be spending time on this issue right now and that no recently: one cares about Lords reform, but I do not entirely “They’re not accountable… there will be no power of de-selection. agree. Governments multi-task all the time, so the Bill Once they’re there, they’re there for 15 years.” takes its place alongside many others, and that is the I accept that it is absolutely the case that under current choice of Ministers this time. I also do not think that it rules, without the power of recall, Members of this is fair to say that no one cares about Lords reform. The House could leave the election night count, jump in a truth is that those who care about it do so passionately. cab and go to Heathrow, take a flight direct to Barbados, I suspect that they come predominantly from one political sit on a deckchair on a white sandy beach for five years tradition, but that does not make their views any less and that decision would catch up with them only if valid, and I certainly do not dismiss them. I have received ultimately they sought re-election to this place at the a huge number of e-mails from constituents over the next general election. I take that seriously. The point is past few weeks putting both sides of the argument, and that I am accountable to the people of Winchester only I do not dismiss any of their points. if or when I seek re-election to this place. A guaranteed I agree with what so many Members have said today, job on £300 a day, with zero accountability—why on earth but let me also state from the outset that I believe in the are we even considering creating such a gravy train? If it reform of Parliament, including the House of Lords. were not so serious, it would be funny. 89 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 90

Ian Austin: Can the hon. Gentleman think of any job 7.21 pm in Britain that is guaranteed for the next 15 years, because I cannot? Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I was a member of the royal commission on the House of Steve Brine: No, I cannot, and I thank the hon. Lords, an all-party commission that, after many months Gentleman for that intervention. Many of the constituents of consideration and consulting a large number of that he and I represent, in the public and private sectors, witnesses throughout the United Kingdom, decided would give their eye teeth for a job with a 15-year unanimously that guaranteed salary. “we could not recommend: a wholly or largely directly elected second chamber”. I wonder what the public would think if they actually saw the other place in action and were exposed to its In the years since then I have come upon no evidence debates in the same way they are to debates in this to dissuade me from that view. This Bill is a botched House, at Prime Minister’s questions for instance. I mess that seems to have been drafted on the back of an think that they would be genuinely shocked to find the envelope, and it is based not on principle, but on a series level of debate that their lordships pursue and the much of deals between the two parties that comprise the reduced partisan nature of their proceedings. Bagehot Government. has been quoted a few times today, but clearly he has The principle, if one can grace it with such an epithet, not been in the House of Lords lately. behind the Bill is not how to secure the better governance The Bill, from my reading of it, would take all the of this great democracy, but how to gratify the whims of worst element of this House, magnify them tenfold and the Liberal Democrat party, which has been determined place them at the other end of the building. The insane to distort our parliamentary system, first, through the proposal to elect these senators to nine regions of the alternative vote and, now, with this rubbish in an effort country by proportional representation would simply to wangle more Liberal Democrat Members of either introduce a new breed of political animal to Parliament, House or both Houses. one that owes everything to the party list that put them Significantly, what concerns the Liberal Democrats, there. Of course they will act accordingly, and we would to the extent of their threatening the stability of the not blame them for doing so. Do right hon. and hon. Government, is not what concerns our constituents, Members really want to create a whole new raft of such as jobs, the health service, schools, pensions, law expensive, partisan and regionally roaming politicians? and order, housing, but their own party self-interest. I read in the weekend papers—there was a lot in One issue that has always troubled me about even a them—the comments of one Liberal Democrat peer, part-elected second Chamber is the conflict between who said that his party has had to swallow some bitter Members of such a Chamber and the rights of the pills, such as student fees and the NHS Bill, strangely, House of Commons and its Members. This Bill is as a result of coalition, and that it was time the imprecise to the point of vacuity on the relationship Conservatives did the same. between the House of Commons and the new Chamber That is one of the worst aspects of coalition, and I that it seeks to create. What is clear, however, is the am a supporter of this coalition Government—and certainty of conflict and collision between Members of very much on the record as saying so. The horse-trading— the House of Commons and Members of the second the “you get, we get” mentality—that coalition fosters is Chamber in the areas where their membership coincides. a woeful way to carry on in any policy area, but when it If a Member of the House of Commons and a comes to the constitution of our country it is just plain Member of the revised second Chamber both take up wrong and plain dangerous. the same individual case, or take up a position on the That is what is very wrong with this debate. The Bill is same issue, chaos could result, and the rights of the a reckless piece of proposed legislation that Baroness elected Member of the House of Commons could be Boothroyd, who has far more experience of this House eroded or undermined, particularly given the different and the other than I do, described on the radio as “an lengths of membership of each body and the fact that abuse of Parliament.” I do not think that she would use Members of the second Chamber will be unaccountable that term lightly. because they cannot be re-elected. The Bill does not hang together intellectually. It is in I was not thrilled with the proposals for a second part about coalition politics and, much more, about the Chamber in the 2010 Labour party election manifesto, internal politics of the Liberal Democrat party—and but at least they started with a referendum to legitimise that is no reason to take a bulldozer to our constitution. any subsequent action. That difference being so strong, In my bones I know that it is wrong, and the saddest I am bewildered by the decision of Labour Front Benchers thing of all is that it will probably set back sensible reform to support the Bill’s Second Reading. In 42 years in this of the Lords for many years. House I have voted only once against the Labour Whip, I urge the Government to step back, even at this late but I shall certainly disregard it tomorrow evening. hour, and the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Perhaps it will set a precedent. I shall vote against both Minister to look each other in the eye over the Cabinet the Second Reading and the programme motion. table this evening and simply to ask themselves whether On whipping, let me say this to hon. Members in the these proposals will leave our Parliament a better place Conservative party, although from what I have heard in if they go through. I suspect that in their hearts both know this debate so far I do not believe that they need to be the answer to that question, and I ask them to ask it. told it. I have a considerable personal regard for the I have never before voted against the coalition Government Chief Whip, but on this issue he is not Government on a Government Bill, but with a very heavy McLoughlin but Machiavelli. His job is to manipulate heart, as others have said, I will do so tomorrow night. to get the result that he needs to deliver. 91 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 92

[Sir Gerald Kaufman] the preservation of the “ancient traditions”, as many hon. Friends have assured me, of the upper House was If one picks up a newspaper or turns on the television, conclusively lost in 1999. Once the vast bulk of the one encounters all kinds of lurid warnings and threats: hereditaries had been removed, so too should all appointed “boundary changes may be in danger”; “the very future Members have followed. Instead, today we have a bloated of the coalition may be at stake”. Boundary changes House of Lords, of which the Lords Winstons and crop up every few years and will continue to do so. I Puttnams are assuredly the exception rather than the have survived four sets so far, and perhaps I will survive rule. the next as well. Governments come and Governments Over the past 13 years the ranks of the upper House go, but the new Chamber proposed in this Bill will be have been swelled by literally hundreds of party hacks irreversible. Once we have it, we will not be able to get and large-scale political donors, along with dubious-quality rid of it. legislators given the nod on politically correct grounds. This nation’s parliamentary system of government In the charming words of my Liberal Democrat opponent has evolved over nine centuries to make the United at the last election, ironically herself also the daughter Kingdom, for which under this Bill there will be different of a life peer, I was too “male, pale and stale”. That may electoral systems in different countries, the greatest and well be the case, but I was also elected, and in a most stable democracy in the world. There has been democracy that matters. change, but it has been evolutionary change. A Liberal While I am happy to support the principle of electing Government asserted the primacy of the House of the House of Lords both on Second Reading and in the Commons under the Parliament Acts more than a vote on the programme motion, I believe that in many century ago; a Conservative Government created life peers of its particulars the Bill is shoddy and poorly drafted. and introduced women peers; and a Labour Government began the end of the hereditary system in the House of Lords. Mr Gray: If my hon. Friend is right in saying that the We, unlike other democracies, do not have a constitution, Bill is shoddy and ill drafted, how on earth can he and that is because we do not need a constitution. The support the programme motion, which should have Queen in Parliament is all we need. Let us uphold allowed us the time to put that right? British democracy tomorrow night. Let us vote no in both Divisions and be done with this pernicious threat Mark Field: I will come to that at the end of my to what has made the United Kingdom a great democracy. remarks, if I may. The Bill misses the opportunity to propose an elegant 7.26 pm solution that might have resolved effectively the four main domestic constitutional uncertainties that have Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): plagued our whole political arena for the past three I regret that I will not be in the same Lobby tomorrow decades. I hope that when it is in Committee and in the night as my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham other place we might be able to make some progress in and Sale West (Mr Brady), even though I agreed with that regard. With a federal UK parliament and four much that he had to say today. I think that the primacy elected national parliaments, we could have not only problem in this place has nothing whatever to do with maintained the monarchy, strengthened the Union, and the House of Lords or even the House of Commons. resolved questions over the legitimacy of an unreformed The real issue that lies at the heart of UK constitutional House of Lords, but given independent and equal politics is the corrosive effect of the overweening primacy representation to citizens in England as well as in Scotland, of the Executive. Wales and Northern Ireland. Anything, but anything that provides an effective As many Members have said, the British constitution counterweight to the oft unchallenged power of the has been one of the success stories of modern politics. Executive is, in my view, a good thing. I remain to this It has kept this country together, united under a common day staggered by the sheer gutlessness of this place, Crown and a common Parliament, for over 300 years—not including of many Members who will vote against this for us the coups, revolutions and counter-revolutions Bill’s Second Reading and programme motion tomorrow that have plagued many of our European partners over night, because we waved through the Parliamentary that period. So successful has it been that we Britons Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011, and it was had perhaps stopped thinking about some of its great a terrible bit of legislation. successes. Until 15 years ago, nobody in this House or That legislation cravenly supported a reduction in the beyond gave much thought to constitutional issues; we size of this House, and it was promoted by the Deputy knew instinctively that we had a British constitution Prime Minister on the basis of a fatuous saving to the that worked well for the whole of these islands. I am public purse of £10 million a year, which even in his own afraid that that was destroyed in 1999 when we got rid words has been overwhelmed by the additional amount of the traditional House of Lords, removing much of of money that will be required for the new House of the genuinely independent hereditary element and created Lords. At the same time, we failed either to nail down hundreds of new life peers. Shamefully, this process has any commensurate shrinking of the size or cost of the continued even under the coalition Government, with House of Lords, or to address the constitutional iniquity some 120 new life peers being created. That is unacceptable. surrounding the absurdly inflated Scottish Parliament and Northern Irish and Welsh Assemblies. David Tredinnick: I hear what my hon. Friend is But I am a democrat, and since my maiden speech in saying, but surely he must recognise that a lot of those this House I have supported, and will continue to who are made peers are experts in their own fields; it is support, a fully elected House of Lords. The case for not just a case of Lord Winston and one other. 93 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 94

Mark Field: They are the exception that proves the are enormous problems with the numbers that we have rule. Just look at the 120 who were made peers; we at the moment, because appointment as the defining could mention particular names. It is an entirely misjudged way of getting into the House of Lords leads to a heavy view that the House of Lords is full of expertise. Clearly over-subscription of people from London and the south- there is expertise—I do not dispute that for one minute—but east. Two hundred and seventy-three Members of the it is very much the exception rather than the rule. House of Lords come from London and the south-east, but just 38 come from the midlands and 74 from the Louise Mensch (Corby) (Con): Will my hon. Friend north. It cannot possibly claim to be the representative give way? House that it claimed to be seven centuries ago, when it had all the tenants-in-chief of the land available to Mark Field: No. I want to make a little progress advise the king. because others wish to speak. I think we all accept that the UK constitution has Jesse Norman: Any reduction in the size of the upper traditionally been full of anomalies. However, we also House can be achieved without election. The hon. like the idea of fair play. As an MP for a seat in London, Gentleman is arguing not for election, but for a reduction which is the capital of England and of the whole United in the size of the House. Kingdom, I call on the Government to offer all the British people—English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Chris Bryant: I have only just started, to be fair. I Irish—a new settlement through this Bill that will be wanted to start by saying that there are too many demonstrably equitable for everyone. I believe that we Members and, on top of that, too many who come from should move in the direction of creating an entirely new London and the south-east and too few who come from federal parliament so that we have four full national everywhere else. With a system of appointment, the parliaments in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern people who do the appointing end up choosing people Ireland, together with all the existing powers of the they already know, and that is why there is a heavy House of Commons. The federal UK parliament would preponderance of people from London and the south-east. deal with defence and foreign affairs, make treaties, and We also still have crooks, perjurers and arsonists up at administer a cohesion fund for the poorer parts of the the other end of the corridor. The hon. Gentleman will UK. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for say, “Ah yes, but we can change all this through David Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) says that it Steel’s Bill,” but then we end up with a House of Lords would be expensive. In fact, it would be anything but, that is solely appointed, and that is a House of patronage because it would mean that there were fewer politicians and power given to too few people, not to the people of as all English Members would be members of both the the land. English and the UK parliaments. It would reduce the We have the ludicrous situation of by-elections for number of elected politicians, which would be a much hereditary peers. I say to all those who are opposed to better approach. In a sense, it would be a unicameral the alternative vote system that we already have that system. I was the only Conservative who voted for a system; it is used to elect people to the House of Lords. unicameral system when we had that option. To me, It is ironic that the last person who was elected in July what we have at the moment is the most undesirable last year, in a by-election that was not much commented outcome of all. I would sooner abolish that, put nothing on in the national media, was Lord Ashton of Hyde. I in its place, have a unicameral system, and make the have never met that gentleman, and I suspect that few of positive reforms that I hope we are going to make. us in this House have, but he got to stand as a hereditary Abolishing the House of Lords would mean that Parliament peer only because of his original predecessor who was was unicameral, but that has not proved to be a problem made a peer. That Lord Ashton of Hyde had been a in Edinburgh or in Cardiff over the past 12 years. Member of this House. He tried to get elected for Hyde All this and much more needs to be addressed in several times and never managed to do so; but none the Committee, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for less, when he went to the Lords, he called himself Lord North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) said, voting down the Ashton of Hyde. He went there because he had vacated programme motion would be tantamount to trying to his seat in the Commons two months before the vote wreck the Bill as a whole. As a believer in a democratised on the Parliament Act 1911 to try to make sure that it House of Lords, that is something that I am not prepared could get through down at the other end of the building. to do. The system of having elected hereditaries in the Lords is completely bizarre, but it is even more bizarre to have 7.33 pm the bishops of the Church of England there. There was Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I nearly fell off my an argument for that when we also had the bishops chair earlier today because I had an e-mail from a of Wales and Ireland, and some representation from constituent on Lords reform. I think that that is the first Scotland, but it makes no sense for only one denomination one that I have had in all my years, despite the fact that I representing one geographical area to be appointed to have held forth about the subject on many occasions. the House of Lords. I would move an amendment to get Fortunately, I agreed with her, so 100% of my constituents rid of all the bishops. are in agreement with me. To those who argue in favour of the House of Lords I say to hon. Members who are opposed to the Bill on the basis of expertise, I would say that sometimes that the current House of Lords is unsustainable. It has expertise is also a vested interest. Just take the case of more than 800 Members, and the coalition agreement two members of the Joint Committee on Privacy and says that more should be appointed. At the rate that we Injunctions, which is considering a very sensitive issue are going, every member of the Liberal Democrat party in politics. One of them is Lord Gold. Most Members will end up as a Member of the House of Lords. There have probably never heard of him, but he happens to be 95 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 96

[Chris Bryant] original version or the present version of clause 2 on the respective powers of the two Houses will meet the day. a Conservative peer. He also happens to be a lawyer There is a third way. I do not want the courts to be able who specialises in litigation. Some people might say, to decide on a row between this House and the other “That’s great—he has expertise,” but I would say that he House. The best way to proceed would be to have a has a commercial interest in the legislation that he is concordat between the two Houses that forms part of advising on. Similarly, Lord Black of Brentwood, as the our Standing Orders, which requires that there can be executive director of the Telegraph Group, has a direct no change in our House without the agreement of the financial and commercial interest in the legislation that House of Lords and no change in the House of Lords is going through. That is why I say that, all too often, without the agreement of the House of Commons. the commercial interests of people down at that end of Perhaps, as one hon. Member suggested earlier, that the building turn it into a corrupt House. should rely on a two-thirds majority. I think that a 15-year term is far too long. Six or nine (South Thanet) (Con) rose— years might be better, but we can debate that. I will also support 100% election. I say to my Liberal Democrat—I Chris Bryant: I give way to the hon. Lady, because hate to say this word—friends, that I have long campaigned I know— on this matter and I think that there is more likelihood of getting the reform if we have a referendum and if we Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We ensure that the Bill is debated properly, because we are are in danger of questioning the nature and duties of going to have to use the Parliament Act. Members of the other House and of going over the line in doing so, and I am sure that we would not want to do 7.42 pm that. Mr (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (LD): Laura Sandys: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that I will not follow immediately on from the tempting this is not just about financial interests but could be suggestion made by the hon. Member for Rhondda about vested interests such as those of the British (Chris Bryant), because I want to direct the bulk of my Medical Association, the National Union of Teachers remarks to the parliamentary Labour party. or other organisations? Might people who are in the I should begin by making my position clear because, other House as a result of the status quo and have as colleagues in my ranks and across the Floor of the vested interests in the status quo therefore resist more House know, I have something of a reputation in this radical change that might be proposed by this House? Parliament as a coalition sceptic, having not supported its formation. It is therefore with all the more enthusiasm Chris Bryant: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s point, that I am speaking strongly in favour of the coalition because it was a very good one. A large number of those proposals, as outlined by my right hon. Friend the who spoke in the House of Lords in the debates on the Deputy Prime Minister this afternoon. Health and Social Care Bill had a personal, commercial, One of the things that has driven me in politics over financial interest in supporting it. I am not questioning the decades is that when one comes into the British any individual, Mr Deputy Speaker, but the system of House of Commons in a third-party position—I have having expertise in the other House that many people been part of the Social Democratic party, the Alliance advocate. Often, someone arrives in the other House and the Lib Dems—there is an overwhelming sense, with a degree of expertise and ends up staying there for which we are seeing in this debate, that the forces of another 30 years, which means that their expertise becomes small c conservatism within both the principal parties extremely out of date. Furthermore, someone may have are ranged against one. Today, colleagues on both sides phenomenal expertise in medicine, but absolutely no of the House have said, “Of course I am in favour of understanding of the armed forces, or vice versa. the principle of House of Lords reform.” To listen to Appointing people to the House of Lords on the basis their rhetoric or to read it in Hansard, one would think of expertise is, I believe, a mistake. that they had been lying awake at night for years fretting I say to those who say that we need evolution, not about this issue. They go on to say, “But not this revolution, that we have had two revolutions—one of reform,” “Not at this time,” “Not in this way,” “Not for them glorious and one of them perhaps inglorious. It these reasons,” “Not because of that political context,” was on the basis of those revolutions that many of the and so on. advances that we have had came about. We have had This debate is reminiscent of one of the first cross-party elected peers before. The 16 Scottish representative peers debates that took place when I was first elected in 1983, from 1707 to 1963 were elected at every general election. which was about televising the House of Commons. Similarly, the Irish peers were elected for life. We have When I look at those, particularly from the House of had a mixed and evolving system. We introduced life Lords, who have been in the public prints over the peers. In 1963, we allowed women who had a peerage in weekend warning of the pestilence, plague and Niagara their own right, suo jure, to sit in the House of Lords. I falls of misfortune that will descend upon our nation do not believe that this is the dramatic change that if we try to reform the House of Lords as outlined in people claim; it is part of the evolution, not a revolution. today’s proposals, I recall, funnily enough, that many of There are problems with the Bill, the most important the same voices, many of the same names and an awful of which was referred to by the hon. Member for lot of the same arguments were raised against the Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman), pernicious effect that televising the House of Commons who intervened on me but has now left the Chamber. It would have. Had they lived in a different generation, is the question of powers. I do not believe that the those people would have had the same instincts and the 97 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 98 same conservative gut reactions against votes for women. Front-Bench apotheosis of Labour enthusiasm for Lords It goes on and on. That is why I make my plea to the reform, then God help us, whether we are debating the Labour party in particular. matter for 10 days and nights on the Floor of this I listened to the Labour leader on BBC Radio 4’s House or for a longer period if the programme motion “World at One” at lunchtime today, speaking no doubt is defeated tomorrow evening. I can only assume—I am with sincerity. When he says that Labour will oppose being charitable to him—that his speech on this occasion the programme motion, while supporting the principle had to be a non-committal holding operation, while of reform, in the best-case scenario he is being Labour weighs up the advantage, sees what happens breathtakingly naive in parliamentary terms and in the tomorrow night and decides where to go from there. He worst-case scenario he is displaying abject party political showed studied ambiguity about what the Opposition cynicism. I hope that it is not the latter, because I think would do if they were successful in thwarting the a lot more of him than that. programme motion tomorrow night, and how much time they would insist upon for debate on the Floor of the I say that because of my experience, some 20 years House. The repeated delphic absence of a response to ago, of the Maastricht treaty. That is what this occasion those questions spoke volumes. I plead with the Labour reminds me of more than anything else. Labour held party: do not just play the Bill for narrow party advantage, themselves together in opposition brilliantly under John play it for the historic opportunity that it is. Smith’s leadership. He had the rallying cry of the absence of the social chapter, which united Eurosceptics and Euro-enthusiasts in the Labour ranks. That kept the 7.49 pm Labour party together and kept the heat on ’s Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): It is a pleasure Government. We found ourselves having to vote on to follow the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and many an occasion, in circumstances that were bitter, Lochaber (Mr Kennedy). I am sure he will accept that I controversial and politically damaging in the short term, do not agree with the entirety of his speech, but he to enable the Maastricht business to proceed, because made it in his usual moderate and thoughtful way. Labour was seeking to thwart it. We are in a similar position here. The right hon. Gentleman leads me to my first point. It is often said that the House of Commons is at its best Mr Jenkin: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? when it is discussing huge constitutional issues. I tend to differ with that view. I believe that we are at our very Mr Kennedy: I will give way in a moment, of course, worst, because we look inwards on ourselves and talk because the hon. Gentleman is a fellow survivor of that about the effect of a change on this or that party or on era. us as a political class, instead of facing outwards and considering what the wider public care about. The votes on Maastricht were a bad experience for the Conservative party because of its rebels. I fear that I should start by stating my own position. Like the its rebels on this issue will find that they are stoking up hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster an awful lot of trouble within their own parliamentary (Mark Field) and several others, I am a unicameralist. ranks later in this Parliament. The other message of There are examples both in the UK and abroad that that experience was that, no matter how much one tries show us how a unicameral legislative system can work to feed and placate the sceptics, they come back for effectively and efficiently. more. They want more and more red meat, and eventually The upper Chamber, the House of Lords, is historically they end up devouring you. That will be the danger if anachronistic. Several Members have gone into great the programme motion is not passed. detail about that, but we need only to read primitive children’s history books to understand why it is the case. Mr Jenkin: I am in danger of agreeing with one or Even in its current state, there is an anomaly: it contains two things that the right hon. Gentleman is saying. The hereditary peers alongside those who are appointed. Maastricht debates were a disaster for Parliament because That is not a satisfactory way to structure a legislature. of the way in which they were conducted. The solution I accept that, as has been said, there are Members of then would have been to have a referendum, and the the House of Lords who bring to bear their knowledge solution now is to have a referendum to avoid the kind and experience, which is often reflected in the quality of of disaster that he is talking about. the debates that take place there. That in itself is not sufficient for it to continue in its present form, but it has Mr Kennedy: We will see, assuming that we have the to be said that that is the case. parliamentary progress that is required, what happens I have to accept that there is not a majority in this on that issue. I was a European spokesman for my party House that agrees with me about the abolition of the at the time of Maastricht and voted in favour of a House of Lords. On the basis that turkeys never vote referendum. Folk of my generation voted for a referendum, for Christmas, there most certainly would not be such a while people of David Steel’s generation voted against. majority in the other place. Nevertheless, reform runs If we have a vote on a referendum in the course of our logically counter to the views of anybody who, like me, proceedings, which I dare say we will, it will be interesting believes in abolition. to see what happens. It might yet become a way of breaking It has been said repeatedly, not least by the Deputy the logjam—who knows? I am not going to declare on Prime Minister, that all three parties—the two in the the issue yet because I want to get through 10 o’clock coalition and my own party—referred to reform of the tomorrow night first. We will take it one step at a time. House of Lords in their manifestos. That is true, but I I was deeply disappointed by the opening contribution doubt whether many right hon. and hon. Members put from the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) it in their election addresses. I can say with absolute on behalf of the Labour party. If that represents the certainty that it was not an issue that was discussed 99 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 100

[Mr George Howarth] before, we must consider whether people would represent vested interests and embed the status quo rather than in Knowsley at the last general election, or any other. offer a Parliament that can provide reform and take things Nevertheless, it was in all three parties’ manifestos, and forward. Are those people not a group of professionals I believe that we need to make some progress on it. who have benefited from the status quo and are part of However, this Bill is not the way to do that. the elite? I will not go into great detail about all that is wrong with the Bill, because time forbids. However, the 15-year Mr Gray: Does my hon. Friend agree that the most term offends any sense of accountability whatever. It is passionate and powerful opponents of what the beyond my wildest imagination how anybody who is Government are doing with regard to, for example, the elected for a 15-year term, with a rule that they cannot reductions in the armed forces are the field marshals, stand again, can in any way be considered accountable. generals and others in the House of Lords? They are the As we know from the European elections, the partly passionate opponents of the Government, not their closed, partly open regional list system hardly sets the supporters. world on fire. The turnout that those elections manage to attract is pitiful, and in my region, the north-west, Laura Sandys: Yes, but they have no vote on this matter, there is the unintended consequence that members of because it is one of financial restructuring. They can the British National party end up getting elected. discuss it, but to be frank they do so more in the media I return to where I started. On such issues, we need than in Parliament. Formers members of the military, not to look in on ourselves but to look out at what the or of any institution, have every right to discuss Government wider public think. The only way that we can do justice proposals, but I am not sure they need the House of to that aspiration, which I hope others share, is to have Lords to do that. a referendum on the subject. If we are to change the We have an example of how selection can be negative. second Chamber, we should do so on the basis that we One of the previous chairmen of the House of Lords have public support, not just the support of the political Appointments Commission said, “We don’t want classes. I hope that at some point in the proceedings, if hairdressers in the House of Lords.” I am very proud the Bill gets that far, we will have an opportunity to vote that we have a hairdresser in our House. Any selection for an amendment stating that there should be a referendum process will not choose people who have not been to the on it. right dinner party. Those who do not know the right people, or who have not networked and become well 7.55 pm connected, or those who do not come from the south-east, will not be selected. Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Knowsley Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): How many hairdressers (Mr Howarth). will be selected on a party list? The two Members who have excited me the most in this debate are my hon. Friends the Members for Altrincham and Sale West (Mr Brady) and for Cities of Laura Sandys: Hon. Members come from many different London and Westminster (Mark Field). We need true, backgrounds. Party associations select people from the bicameral reform. Both parts of this Parliament need to parts of the country they are to represent. Our parties look at themselves and ensure that we have a dynamic, should not be demeaned—we should not say that they active and reformed Parliament—one Parliament, two should not have that responsibility. In my case, the Chambers, which in my view should both be elected. I party has made an excellent choice. appreciate that the Bill is merely one step on the way We have a fundamental problem. We have one and is not the answer to the big parliamentary deficit Parliament, but two Chambers as important as each other. from which we suffer, but we have an opportunity to Our hybrid system—one elected Chamber and one appointed consider a new settlement between the public, Parliament —makes a mockery of our democracy and hobbles and, most importantly, the Executive. Parliament’s overall legitimacy. In addition, it creates a Although many people might have heard a lot of problem for those resisting reform. If the House of conflict in the debate and a lot of difference between the Lords is only a revising, advisory, “think again”Chamber, Government’s position and that of other Members, it is very expensive. If it is a proper part of a bicameral over the past 10 months the process of public debate, legislature, as I believe it should be, it must be elected if the proceedings of the Joint Committee, on which I we are to sustain a self-respecting democracy. served, and other discussions have delivered, in a strange way, a significant amount of consensus. There is consensus Louise Mensch: Does my hon. Friend recognise that about a reduction in numbers in the Lords, the end of we recently had a referendum on changing the voting patronage and the decoupling of titles. Those are all system for the Westminster Parliament, which the public fundamental points about the anomaly at the heart of overwhelmingly rejected? Is not the Bill an attempt to our constitution, and I think we can agree on them. The introduce that through the back door? sticking point is whether we have a second Chamber that is elected or selected. Laura Sandys: I disagree. We will have two Chambers In many people’s minds, the case for selection is that and two electoral systems, and two different outcomes. people without political bias would be appointed. Does As a result, there will be strengths in both Chambers. that mean that membership of any political party would They will complement each other and create much preclude someone from being put forward? What criteria greater rigour when it comes to scrutiny and the legislative would be used for the selection? As we have discussed process. 101 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 102

Back Benchers of all parties constantly complain the other House should have. At one point, giving the about the diminishing power of Parliament. Many claim other House special responsibility for human rights was the Executive is too strong. How can the concentration considered. of powers in the hands of three party leaders, who On the make-up of the second House, many noble appoint hundreds of legislators to the Chamber next Lords are going around saying that the Lords is more door, be anything other than extreme patronage gone reflective of the population than the Commons. That is out of control? It is unprecedented anywhere in the not true. Only a fifth of Members of both Houses are democratic world. women and 5% or fewer are from ethnic minorities. However, more than 96% of Members of the other House Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): Will are over 50. The Government’s proposals in the Bill are my hon. Friend give way? extremely weak on that. The proposed 15-year terms are weak not just on accountability; they will add to that Laura Sandys: I am afraid I will not—I am so sorry. age bias. Opponents of reform seem very concerned that the poor old Government will struggle to get their legislation The objective is surely to widen involvement in our through Parliament if there are two elected, functioning political institutions—[Interruption.] Houses, but the House of Commons is not the Government —it is separate. I would hope that two elected Houses of Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I Parliament would not defeat any Government any more am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady. You have made than they do in other bicameral systems in the world. your speech, Ms Sandys. Turning round and having a However, it is no bad thing if a stronger Parliament private conversation, along with many other Members, deters the Government from passing ill-considered is not fair and does not show due respect to the hon. legislation. I am a good Conservative, and, in that way, Member for (Helen Goodman). Given the objective of getting the Government to do less better the importance that hon. Members have attached to would also be achieved. this Bill, perhaps they can ensure they listen to the debate on it. We cannot blame our coalition partners for some of the philosophy behind the Bill. Localism and elected Helen Goodman: Thank you very much, Madam Deputy police commissioners are Conservative policies, not policies Speaker. I am obviously so boring that other hon. Members conjured up by the coalition. Trusting the public with cannot be bothered to listen—[HON.MEMBERS: “No!”] decision making on schools and other public services is part of the Conservative DNA, so why should we deny Our politics and our democracy are not exactly in a the public the choice to vote for 50% of our Parliament? crisis, but confidence in them is beginning to look It is absolutely crucial that we Conservatives are seen to rather tattered round the edges. If we are to restore that be giving power to the many and taking it away from confidence, we need both institutional reform and higher the few. levels of participation. Today is an opportunity to discuss the institutional reform—we can talk about Perhaps not every aspect of the Bill is perfect—some participation on another occasion. of us might be looking for more radical reform—but it is a crucial step forward. It is an opportunity to say that For many, the heyday of our popular democracy was we trust the people, and that we are taking away the the early 1950s, when voting participation under universal appointments system from the Prime Minister and giving suffrage was at its highest, and when the two-party it to the electorate. system seemed to provide a reasonable reflection of the choices for the country. However, in 1997, at the end of 8.4 pm 20 years of Tory rule, the overwhelming sense one had was of anachronistic institutions that were completely Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): It is a great unrepresentative of who we are and what we expect pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South Thanet from our democracy. Institutional reforms redressed (Laura Sandys). I agree that reform and an elected the balance between citizens and the state. They were House of Lords are essential. It is a basic principle of significant and welcome, but they did not address some democracy that those who legislate for everybody else of the key failings. Why are so few Members of Parliament are voted for by the other citizens of the country. in either House women? Why is it right that the second Whatever their positions on the Bill, hon. Members Chamber should reserve places for Anglican bishops on both sides of the House agree that the House of but none for other denominations and religions? Those Lords should complement and not duplicate the House are failings of the institutional arrangements, but they of Commons in both its function and its make-up. reflect a deeper failure: a failure to make sense of our Unfortunately, the Bill is weak on both counts. Clause 2 new British identity. is inadequate in setting out the functions of the reformed To tackle that malaise, we need institutions that House. I agree with the letter written by my right hon. provide equal rights within their arrangements. This is Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) to the an extremely unusual country, because it is both a Deputy Prime Minister. We must see a new draft of multinational state built over more than 500 years from clause 2 early in the passage of the Bill. We cannot be England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, and a multi-ethnic expected to agree to a measure if we do not know what country, which in the past 50 years has had a huge change the functions will be until some distant time in future, in its constitution. Such significant cultural diversity after the Bill has been to the Lords. can make the task of building inclusive citizenship seem Furthermore, the Bill reveals one of the weaknesses huge, and we do it against a background of growing of our unwritten constitution. It would be helpful if globalisation, which seems to be reducing the importance Ministers considered not only how to preserve the of the nation state. It is vital, however, if we are to get primacy of the Commons but what special responsibilities the levels of participation that we need. 103 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 104

Andrew Griffiths: The hon. Lady makes some important institutions of the land. Like all my colleagues, however, statements about the need to ensure that the Chambers I accept that there are useful and important reforms are representative, but does she not accept that the other that should be made to their lordships’ House without place has the same representation of women, and a higher upsetting the constitutional applecart. I say to my own representation of disabled people and ethnic minorities? Front-Bench team that by pushing ahead with this foolish enterprise, they are diminishing the Government’s Helen Goodman: The differences between the numbers sense of urgency and purpose to put our country back of ethnic minorities and people with disabilities are tiny in a better place. They are throwing away the chance to compared with the great distortion of age. build on the British public’s clear and—in my lifetime— This Chamber represents people according to the unique understanding that we live in an era of great communities in which they live. Once upon a time, the austerity, that there are difficult and important decisions differences between living in Sheffield, which was a steel to take and that the Government should get on and take town, and Nottingham, where there were lots of lace them, rather than worrying about undermining our factories, were significant, but increasingly the idea of constitution. communities based on economic differences defines The essential argument is that the creation of an only a part of people’s lives. With House of Lords elected second Chamber would inevitably transform reform, we have the opportunity to consider the other relations between the two Chambers and would produce aspects of identity and the issues arising from them, a House that would increasingly be in competition with which are often just as important—for some people, the House of Commons. The evidence of the Clerk of more important—as the communities in which they the House in this regard should be studied most carefully live. I propose that we look at House of Lords reform in by all those who intend to vote on these profoundly an attempt to redress that imbalance. It is obviously a disappointing proposals. The House is going to vote deep and complex problem requiring a lot of consideration. potentially to enshrine in our national political life the Tomorrow evening I will vote for Second Reading, so recipe for a permanent constitutional crisis. that we have a democratic second Chamber, but against Of course, the House of Lords needs reforming—it is the programme motion, so that we can unpick some of too big and there are sensible measures that we could these very significant matters. take—but I profoundly believe that an appointed House has very real merit. It can deliberately reflect the diversity 8.11 pm of our country in a way that the House of Commons Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): I thought that simply cannot. The present House of Lords has the the speech by the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland same gender balance as us, an honourable and long-standing (Helen Goodman) was magnificent, so she should not tradition of ethnic diversity and, incidentally, a considerable give any consideration to her concerns. number of disabled Members. Most importantly, however, it contains a vast reservoir of talent and experience that I wholly support the speech of my hon. Friend the complements a more youthful and aggressive House of Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Commons without ever being able to threaten it. Norman), who captured the whole sense of what is wrong with the Bill. When one considers the great historical The Bill will inevitably lead to the greater politicisation events that have shaped our British constitutional and of the House of Lords, blur the harmonious and distinctive political history—Magna Carta, the Reformation, the differences between the two Houses and remove the civil war, the Glorious Revolution, the Great Reform correctly unambiguous democratic mandate that the Act—it is easy to understand why a former distinguished House of Commons rightly enjoys. The Bill will pile a Speaker, the great Baroness Boothroyd, on a programme constitutional crisis on top of an economic crisis that on the wireless this morning, described the Bill as a we all know will last for a long time. The Conservative constitutional outrage. party has honoured the obligation in our manifesto; that commitment has been discharged. It is now the On the same programme, the Parliamentary Secretary, duty of every Member to consider their position carefully Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest before knowingly doing something to unpick that which of Dean (Mr Harper), in an impertinent assertion—I we know works, however imperfectly. We should wait am sorry he is not here to take his medicine—assured for better hours and better days, when we have the space the world that Churchill would have voted for this proposal. and the time really to think this through. First, that is not for him to say, given that he has absolutely no idea whether it would have been the case and, 8.17 pm secondly, most historians would agree that it is highly Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): It is a pleasure to unlikely that Churchill would ever have voted for an follow the right hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas elected second Chamber, which he would rightly have Soames). perceived as a serious challenge to the House of Commons. I want to speak against both Second Reading and the Most people looking in on our proceedings would timetable motion for the following reasons. We who are think it extraordinary that in a country where so few elected to this legislature have developed the habit of things work—I think of the Government’s dismal inability thinking that politics is about passing legislation—I am even to fix the immigration controls at Heathrow—we as guilty a party to that sin as anyone else—and although should be setting about wasting an inordinate amount we all approach legislation with a good spirit and of valuable Government time on proposals that are ill wishing to improve the public good, we often do not thought out and falsely conceived, as part of a deal to make a very good job of it. Prime Ministers and parties conciliate our coalition partners. in government change, however, so we have a chance to The country faces global challenges. These are not undo the silliness of a previous House of Commons. peaceful, fertile times with the space to consider and We are talking about a different form of legislation, reform at leisure one of the greatest and most important however, when we talk about changing the constitution. 105 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 106

My time in the House has often been spent undoing thinks that the Bill will deliver either of those two the silliness of other politicians, but we cannot point to simply because we will have an election system—one any example of a constitutional measure, passed by this that will have even lower turnouts than for the European House and—under threats—by the House of Lords, Parliament—needs their head tested. that has actually been changed. We will be changing the constitution for ever—there will be no going back—so 8.23 pm it is beholden on us to be satisfied with the Bill on Second Reading and not to be beguiled by the Whips. John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): Britain has had a The hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett long tradition of gradually changing its constitutional Baldwin), whom I respect, said, “If I don’t like it on arrangements, rather than going for an overnight revolution. Third Reading, I’ll strike it down.” It never works like It is a tradition that reflects the strength of our political that. Let me tell her that simple fact. establishment, but it is also a tradition that means that We also need to lay charge against the Government change generally happens slowly. It has taken us 101 years because of what this Bill is about. The Deputy Prime to reach this point in the House of Lords debate, but we Minister has an extraordinary view of democracy. He now have a Bill before Parliament that is supported by views democracy as being about voting. There are many the Government, along with commitments in the manifestos nations in this world that vote, but which we would not of the three main parties, to conclude the work that our regard as democracies. In this country we have crafted predecessors began, with the Parliament Act 1911, in two great constitutional ideas through which we channel reforming the House of Lords. our ideas about political freedom. We value the idea I appreciate that I am probably in a very small that our institutions should be representative and that minority on the Government Benches; nevertheless, I they should be responsible. The charge I make against welcome the Bill. I acknowledge and accept that it is a the Government this evening when they reply to this compromise, but in many respects that is inevitable. debate—or when they care to reply—is this. To what extent There are probably 650 views of what a reformed House does this reform strengthen representative government, of Lords should look like, but at some point we just and to what extent does it strengthen responsible have to allow for compromise. The Bill therefore reflects government? Let me take the responsible side first. the many attempts over the last 20 years to reform the The idea that we will get more responsible government House of Lords—both from this place and the other by electing people for 15 years without them ever having place—and it addresses what are, for me, the two key to stand to account again is a most extraordinary view. issues of reform: the principle of democratic legitimacy We are responsible in the sense that we stand on a and the issue of practicality. As a simple matter of mandate of our party—sometimes rather loosely, but principle, I believe it right and proper to reform the we stand on it—and if we wish to continue our careers, House of Lords. The present arrangements are, in my we know that we have to face our electorate. The idea view, indefensible. Lords membership at present is based that electing people for 15 years will somehow strengthen on piety, patronage and privilege. A country that calls the responsible side of our constitution is idiotic. itself a democracy in the 21st century should not have a Now let us face the other issue: whether our system key part of its political system based on such criteria. will be more representative. The idea that a list system— prefaced by the word “open”—will give us a different Jake Berry: I agree with my hon. Friend: his point composition from that of the House of Commons, as about democracy is absolutely key to this debate. Does well as a better one, is equally naive. Those concerned he agree that if we say that we are a democratic country, will be people who the Whips have decided are safe. democracy cannot be partial? We have to reflect it Constituency parties will elect huge lists of people through all our parliamentary institutions, including without knowing who the hell they are and they will the House of Lords. have little chance of imposing their views, as they try to when they select for single-Member seats. John Stevenson: I agree with my hon. Friend. We elect The reason I am going to vote against the timetable parish councillors, local councillors, county councillors, motion is that there are many other ideas that we could mayors, MPs, MEPs, MSPs and Welsh Assembly Members, put forward to make the House of Lords both responsible and in November we will elect our first police and more representative. Since Nolan, we have swallowed commissioners, but somehow we do not think it necessary the extraordinary view that we should not represent to elect Members of the House of Lords. interests. It is totally novel and totally foreign to our constitution. The one place where we should have a Angie Bray: But do we elect our judges or our generals? view of representation coming forward is the Lords. I There are plenty of people in public life who are not want days, if necessary, to discuss how we could make elected, because the principle cannot be applied unilaterally that Chamber—after it has, necessarily, the elements of across everything. Government and Opposition—a representative Chamber of the great interests: the great regions of this country; John Stevenson: We are talking about our institutions the different interests of men and women; the different where there is representation and where laws are made. interests of both sides of industry; different cultural To any rational person, the current arrangement is and industrial interests; and even, perhaps, the interests absurd. We live in a democracy and we, the British of political parties. people, should be allowed to elect those who make our The idea is that, under a timetabled motion, we will laws and govern us. Equally importantly, we should also be able to open up the debate where the Joint Committee be allowed the opportunity to put ourselves forward for left it and seriously consider, first, whether the Bill such a role. As things stand, I have to be able to explain makes our constitution more responsible and, secondly, to my constituents that, when it comes to the House of whether it makes it more representative. Anybody who Lords, although they live in a democracy and we can 107 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 108

[John Stevenson] John Stevenson: I would accept that argument, as I believe all parts of our constitution should be elected. vote for and be councillors, MPs, mayors and so on, I ask how many amendments the Government accept they cannot vote for some of the people who pass laws from Opposition Front-Bench or Back-Bench Members, over them, nor do they have the opportunity to hold or even from Government Back-Bench Members. In the such offices themselves. That cannot be right. other place, amendments are often considered and accepted even when they are similar to those proposed and rejected Mr Gray: Perhaps my hon. Friend will answer one in this place. It is time that this Chamber asserted itself simple question: is he, or is he not, a hereditary monarchist? more, and I believe that House of Lords reform will help to achieve that. There are concerns that this Chamber John Stevenson: I do not believe that the monarchy is would be diminished as a result of reform and that a part of our constitution where effective—[HON.MEMBERS: more assertive House of Lords with an electoral mandate “What?”] No, it is not involved in our effective day-to-day would threaten this place. My view is that Parliament as constitution, in terms of the laws that are passed, so a whole would be more assertive as a result of these when my hon. Friend talks about the monarchy as such, reforms, and it is the Executive who should be concerned he is talking about a different concept. about an empowered legislature. In a country that is overly centralised and dominated by a powerful Executive, Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): Will my that would be no bad thing. hon. Friend explain to the House the difference between On the issue of practicality, as I alluded to earlier, the the day-to-day constitution and the bigger constitution Bill is one of compromise. Specific aspects of it will that he is talking about? undoubtedly be debated in great detail and there will be further opportunities in Committee to do that and to John Stevenson: It is an accepted part of our constitution amend the Bill. This Second Reading is very much that the monarch does not actually veto any of the laws about the general thrust of the Bill, however, so I would passed by Parliament. like to touch on a few points. As a Conservative, I believe that all those who make The powers of the House of Lords will largely remain the law should be elected and that those who have the unchanged. The Lords will still have the power to right to vote should also have the right to seek election, introduce and amend legislation; what will undoubtedly with the opportunity to make laws or govern. change will be the conventions of Parliament. The conventions have been changing continually for decades, Louise Mensch: My hon. Friend is being very generous however, and will continue to do so. As I said at the in giving way again. If he believes that people should be outset, constitutional change develops slowly in this elected and should be accountable to the electorate, will country. Even if this Bill becomes an Act, it will be he not reject a system whereby people are elected for a another 12 to 15 years before it is implemented fully. 15-year term, but never have to face the electorate ever There is no doubt that, over time, the other place will again? become more assertive towards the Executive and, indeed, this Chamber, but that is not necessarily a bad thing for John Stevenson: The most important part is that there our democracy. I believe we will end up with less but is democratic legitimacy, whereby the people who make better legislation. The terms of the Lords would be laws in this country are elected. limited to 15 years, elected in thirds at the same time as I am aware of the arguments for the present arrangement the general election. This means a peerage will no longer that the other place is more varied in background and be a lifetime gift, but the terms will be lengthy enough that it is a place of greater expertise. I do not accept this. to ensure that a long-term view is taken. I believe that The average age in the other place is 70. There are more that is correct—and certainly better than the average in their 90s than there are under-40s, and around 26-year tenure of a present peer. The fact remains that 44% have a political or local authority background. the House of Lords is over-filled, under-representative Undoubtedly, there is expertise in the other place, but it and under-mandated. This Bill will provide a 100-year is not reactive to, or representative of, the electorate. overview solution to these problems. As for the make-up of the other place, it is Let us strengthen Parliament, not the Executive. Let overwhelmingly geared towards the south of England. us improve, not weaken our democracy. Let us pass this Where is the representation of Scotland, Wales or the Bill, ending 100 years of debate and, in 2025, on the north of England? Representative it is not. We need to conclusion of these reforms, we will be able to reflect on ensure proper regional representation so that the views a more vibrant, assertive Parliament of which our country of all parts of the country are heard in the second can be proud. Chamber. As to the principles of a functioning Parliament, let us not delude ourselves that the present arrangements 8.32 pm are satisfactory for us in this place. Arguably, because of Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): I shall the current arrangements for the House of Lords, we break with the traditions of this Chamber by being have weakened our own Chamber as an instrument of brief and by trying not to repeat what others have legislature. already said. One of the earliest speakers supporting the Bill today said something like, “If you are a democrat, Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): The you have to vote for this Bill”. That embodies the hon. Gentleman is being astonishingly generous with attitude and the arrogance of some of those who are his time. I am following his arguments closely, but seeking to advance this Bill. I believe that it is possible would he say that because we do not elect our second to be a democrat and disagree with people. That is Chamber, this country is not a fully functioning democracy? entirely the nature and essence of this Chamber and 109 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 110 everything it stands for. It says on the cover that this is we are not going to bloody ask them. We are going to the House of Lords Reform Bill, but I prefer to call it “a tell them what is good for them. That is how we will horse designed by a Committee that failed to produce a rebuild trust in Parliament.” I do not think it is. camel Bill”. It has been cobbled together for a variety of different and often conflicting reasons and then presented Hon. Members: Hear, hear. before us as a fait accompli. I take the oldest of old Labour positions on the Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): They are cheering House of Lords. My party believed for the overwhelming you, Jim. majority of the 20th century that the place should be abolished. However, I understand that we cannot do Jim Dowd: So I should hope. It woke you up, anyway. that on our own. A similar Bill was tested in the To say what the proponents of the Bill are saying is previous Parliament and there was no majority then; I rather like saying, “We are all in favour of improving suggest that the majority has subsequently decreased public health, so when some charlatan comes up with a still further in this Parliament. This reform has to be quack remedy involving blood-letting and leeches, we coupled with the whole question of Parliament and its should all go along with it.” Well, I am not going to go purposes. We cannot take one part of our democratic along with it, and I am not going to go along with my institutions and take it in isolation. That is why so many Front-Bench team on this occasion. Under the Labour attempts to reform the House of Lords have run into Government, I voted against them just once. I do not the sand—because we have taken just one element of offer that as any particular threat—certainly not the Parliament and tried to pursue reforming it on its own. silly threat that some so-called Liberal adviser came up Let us consider some of the changes introduced over with, equating the issue of boundaries with the Bill—but the last 15 years or so that have had significant effects. I will tell Opposition Front Benchers this. I voted against Devolution to what we call the nations—Scotland, Wales the last Labour Government once, on the Bill that and Northern Ireland—is one example. That has happened, became the Constitutional Reform and Governance but I still think the English question has not been Act 2010, and on the one occasion when I voted against resolved and will need to be addressed in some detail in them, they lost. the not-too-distant future. To be perfectly frank—I do This is a serious matter. We should not just tolerate not wish to be parochial—I think that doing that would the lowest common denominator; we should reform be a far better use of this House’s time now than would Parliament—reform all of it. That is how we will regain pursuing this pipedream that has been put before us. the trust of the British people. We have seen the advent of draft Bills and we have seen the development of programme motions, about 8.37 pm which I shall say more in a moment. Of course, at the time of their introduction by a Labour Government, David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): Thank you for the Conservatives and Liberals fought it tooth and nail, calling me, Mr Deputy Speaker. telling us how awful and what a denial of democracy it I much enjoyed the contribution of the hon. Member was, but we knew—I was in the Government Whips for Lewisham West and Penge (Jim Dowd). I too am a Office then—that as soon as they had the chance to use party loyalist, but there is one small difference between them, they would use them, and use them mercilessly. us: in my 25 years in the House, I have never voted [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob against my party’s main business. I am proud of that Russell) seems shocked by such a proposition. I realise record, and to illustrate the importance of loyalty, I that he is one of the few members of the Liberal should like to share with the House an exchange of Democratic party who occasionally tell the truth, although letters between the person whom I used to call “my normally by accident rather than design, but I assure right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley”—in other him that that was what happened. words, Mrs Thatcher, as she then was—and my party I hear from the Leader of the House that public association chairman, who had the temerity to write to reading stages of Bills are likely to be introduced, her, on 5 April 1990, complaining about the community whatever they may be. A wide range of change is taking charge. On 18 April she wrote back, very commendably, place, and we need to deal with the elements of it together. saying: Trying to isolate one part, whether it be the House of “I entirely agree with you that splits within the Party only Lords or anything else, will virtually ensure that progress damage ourselves. It is essential that all”— cannot be made. the word “all” is underlined— The other bit of arrogance on the part of the proponents “members of the Party should direct their fire at the real enemy: of the Bill is their saying, “We have been arguing about the Socialists. To do otherwise is… to assist our opponents.” this for 100 years, and therefore you must accept this This is not just a Government Bill; it is a fundamental answer. You cannot question it. If you are genuine constitutional Bill. I have underlined the first three about reform, you must agree with me.” That is not the words in the next sentence of my speech three times: “I way in which a democracy works. I say, “If you are am against an elected Lords.” We have not heard much genuine about reform, you must convince me, and convince in this debate about the great history of building up the me without the use of a programme motion.” House of Commons through the 1832 and 1869 Great That attitude demonstrates the hubris with which the Reform Bills, although the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Bill is being pushed by its advocates, and the disdain Central (Tristram Hunt) and my right hon. Friend the that they have both for this place and for the people. Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) did talk Having had their fingers burnt to a crisp over the AV about that. We cannot have it both ways. We either have referendum, they have adopted another strategy: “As an appointed other place over which the Commons has we cannot trust the people to give us the right answer, influence, or we have an elected other place, which will, 111 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 112

[David Tredinnick] in the future. I say to them, “Please don’t threaten us over the boundary changes that we need. We gave you in the end, compete with us. My hon. Friend the Member the AV referendum and it was a straight fight.” for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray), who served in the Army Finally, we must think about the new constituencies— as I did, knows about mission creep. We are going to with seven Members and larger than a country, as a have Lords creep. The new versions of the Lords will colleague put it. Do we really want to superimpose that come a-leaping. They will want more power. That is in our areas? I do not think so. We already have MEPs very worrying. covering similarly vast areas. The list system is the worst possible system. How can As a party loyalist, I hate doing this—I really do—but any of us stand up and talk with a straight face about I cannot support this Bill. I do not think it is in our getting rid of patronage and bringing in a list system? national interest or Parliament’s interests, and it is Opposition Members have spoken eloquently about the certainly not in my party’s interests. evils of that, but when we couple it with the absurd proposition of an elected House with 15-year terms, we 8.44 pm see that this entire proposal presents an opportunity to get elected and then go and live in the south of France. Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): I have listened Those elected would never need to come back, because with great interest to the number of speeches in which they will never stand for election again. This is a recipe we have been told about the expertise in the other place, for lazy peers. Why should anybody want to turn up for how wonderful their lordships are and so on. I wonder that length of time? There is no accountability either. why, then, when the results of their deliberations in the other place come down here, we rarely accept anything that they say. I think of the most recent example of the Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): The average Welfare Reform Bill. There was a great deal of expertise term of office in the current House of Lords is 26 years. over there and nobody in this House, or very few—certainly among those on the Government Benches—listened to David Tredinnick: Well, I am grateful for that intervention. them. There is another Bill that solves about half of these I would have thought that the Liberal Democrats problems. I mentioned it in an earlier intervention. It is would have been able to come up with a better Bill than Lord Steel’s Bill. He is a Liberal Lord, and his Bill give this; after all, they have been thinking about it for peers the opportunity to retire if they want, which will 101 years. I feel as though I am at a seminar about the reduce the numbers. If they do not turn up, they get Parliament Act. We are talking about an increase in disqualified. On the criminals issue, the bad guys would accountability, but in order, apparently, to assuage criticism be disqualified, too. That Bill therefore deals with at from those who would argue that the House of Lords least a third of the problems with this Bill. should be a forum for the expertise that I have mentioned, I say to those who are dissatisfied with the way in which we rarely actually accept in this House, we have which we get our peers that I personally do not object to before us a proposal to appoint 20% of the new Chamber. former senior politicians going to the Lords, as I think This morning, I received the document I am holding, they make an important contribution. If the regional “Lords reform: a guide for MPs”, to which some balance is wrong, we do not have to turn the Lords upside distinguished colleagues have contributed. As well as a down; we could have regional commissions, perhaps, or hybrid Chamber and a new electoral system—many a debate about allocating peers. other colleagues have mentioned this—we have before As for the insulting notion that the experts in the us, in this supporting document, the statement that Lords are not important, anyone who has attended a “members elected in large, multi-member regional constituencies debate on health issues in which peers such as Lord would be able to take a more strategic view of the needs of a whole part of the country. They would not be expected or Winston or Lord Walton participated will have listened resourced to take up a litany of individual cases on behalf of in awe—and the same applies to those with military constituents”. experience, as has been said. Listening to a Lords debate I come from Scotland, where we have regional MSPs. I can be an awesome experience. can see my colleagues from Wales nodding in agreement We are being told that because Lords reform was in with what they anticipate I am about to say. The reality the parties’ manifestos, this Bill has to go through, but is that if a politician is shown an electorate, they will we barely touched on the issue in our manifesto. It react like a politician. They will not say, “Sorry, I merely said that we must find some form of consensus. cannot deal with that, because I have been elected for The Steel Bill presents the ideal way to achieve consensus, 15 years and I am not going to be re-elected.” Of course and therefore to get us out of this corner. they will be politicians, and that is what they will do. Many years ago, I served on the Anglo-Irish I have been in this place for 15 years, which is a long, parliamentary forum. I remember talking, in County long time in politics. Many of the people who came in Tipperary or somewhere else, to Irish Members who with me are no longer here. I say to those Government suffered two-Member constituencies. Did they like it? Members who think they will still be here in 15 years: in They hated it, because they were always campaigning your dreams. I am not talking about your dreams, against each other through the whole term. Nothing got Madam Deputy Speaker, because I know that you do done and constituency interests were not paramount. not dream about the Government Benches. Let me say a few words about the veiled threat from The Deputy Prime Minister made great play of the my new-found Liberal hon. Friends, who occupy what new House of Lords, new Senate, or whatever on earth used to be our other Front Bench before it was taken we are going to call it, having greater regional and over by them. I forget after which election that happened, national representation. He obviously has not looked at but perhaps we will get that Bench back at some point or seen the implications of what Lord Strathclyde has 113 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 114 said about the way in which it is expected these that new goes on this House, the Government will have the time Senators or Members of the House of Lords will operate; to reflect and will knock some sense into the head of the as the Joint Committee also said, the new situation Deputy Prime Minister. should allow individuals to “maintain relevant professional expertise”. The Government have also said that the 8.51 pm “appointed members and elected members should be able to vary their level of participation…so that they can maintain outside Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I occupations”. congratulate the right hon. Member for Stirling So I say to the House: how on earth is an elected Member (Mrs McGuire) on a terrific speech. It is an honour to of the House of Lords from Newcastle, from Scotland follow her. or from north of the inner circle of London going to be I had rather hoped this day would not come, as this able to maintain another job and still attend the House is the first time that a Government Bill has presented of Lords? It is utter nonsense. me with a dilemma. House of Lords reform is not a dilemma for my constituents and, in fact, it simply is Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Does the right not of any interest to them whatsoever, judging by the hon. Lady share my concern, and that of many in this number of communications I have received. There are House, that the number of representatives from Northern far more pressing issues facing my constituents during Ireland is to total three in each period of the legislative these difficult times and I very much get the impression change? Does she agree that the history and culture of that they think we should be focusing on those rather Northern Ireland, and the sense of self that its people than what they see as a distant and rather arcane have, is not represented totally in the reform put forward constitutional matter. House of Lords reform has not by the coalition? been raised with me on the doorsteps in Ealing and Acton either before or since the election two years ago, but the Government have chosen to make it a priority Mrs McGuire: The hon. Gentleman makes a very and we must therefore spend time on it. It needs thorough good point. I do not think that the current House of consideration, however, because its impact would have Lords accurately reflects the diversity of the United major consequences. Kingdom. Although we think that there are Scots The first of those consequences is cost. The proposal everywhere, there are probably fewer Scots in the House for an elected House of Lords would not only impose of Lords than there ought to be given the percentage of yet another tier of elected politicians, creating a sixth the population—[Interruption.] That is probably so in elected tier in London, but be an added cost for which the House of Lords. taxpayers will have to pay. As night follows day and as Let me make one or two points which I do not think with all elected politicians, the costs will soon start to have been adequately covered. My right hon. Friend the escalate. I should know. As one of the first Greater Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan London authority members, I remember how Londoners Johnson) makes a very valid point about bishops in the were promised that the new GLA would cost them just House of Lords. The issue is controversial but, frankly, a few pence a week, but by the time we had employed I do not agree that removing bishops from the House of personal assistants and researchers for every member, Lords means that we are automatically talking about as well as a chief of staff and a press officer for each the disestablishment of the Church of England. If the group, with an expanding secretariat to serve them, up, establishment of the Church of England depends on up, up went the cost. We all know that the costs for the 12 bishops sitting in the House of Lords, it is in a worse proposed elected House of Lords are already expected state than the Archbishop of Canterbury thinks that to be considerably more than the current costs over it is. each five-year period. There has been a bit of a myth put around for most The second consequence would be on accountability. of the day that the Labour party has always been Does the Bill provide for a more accountable and less interested in changing the House of Lords. It has been remote second Chamber? Does it indeed provide for an highlighted that many of our policies related more to elected second Chamber that ticks all the boxes for abolition than to reform, but the reality is that we have those who want an elected second Chamber? My answer always been more interested in the powers of the House to both questions is no. It proposes a party list system of Lords than in its composition. We have not had any for candidate selection attached to large regional areas. discussion about the powers today. If we change the That, to me at least, is appointment by another name. form of election to the other Chamber, we will change Those who are favourites with the party bosses will go unalterably the balance of the relationship between this higher on the list—we all know that—and representing House and a second Chamber. We cannot move away a huge nominal region will hardly bring them closer to from that and no matter how often the Government us either. mention the Parliament Act, it just will not wash. We Then there is the bizarre idea that Members of the cannot have a modern constitution for the 21st century House of Lords should serve a 15-year term, and no based on the relationships in the 1911 Act and we must returns. That means that they could not be rejected at be far more realistic about the implications of the the ballot box for doing a lousy 15-year job, which is proposals. surely a measure for mediocrity. Meanwhile, we will be I will vote in favour of Second Reading tomorrow, losing a huge range of expertise covering so many because I believe in the reform of the House of Lords different fields—law, medicine, military matters, health, and this is the only game in town at the moment, but charities, education. I could easily go on. Many of those I will also vote against the programme motion on the experts are not natural politicians and they would not grounds that perhaps, as the discussion and conversation wish to seek election. 115 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 116

Mr Frank Field: If we had the time, we could discuss As it happens, my views are probably not as strong as alternatives such as the big interests being represented. some of those expressed today by eminent and experienced Let us consider those interests. All the organisations Members on both sides of the House, and on both sides that the hon. Lady has mentioned had the franchise and of the debate on the other side of the House. I perhaps elected their leadership long before we had universal find myself slightly in sympathy with my right hon. franchise for parliamentary elections. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) and the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton Angie Bray: That is an extremely interesting point, (Angie Bray), wondering how much the Bill is a distraction but all those things need much more consultation than from more important issues. It is certainly not something they are getting at the moment. that has been raised particularly by my constituents at I want to comment finally on the future governance surgeries or on the doorstep in recent times. of this country. That may not seem to be a big issue right now, but one day it will be—when a newly elected Anna Soubry: Does the hon. Gentleman not agree House of Lords decides that primacy should no longer with me, though, from his experience on the doorstep, be hogged by this House. After all, Members of the that a lot of people are disaffected and cynical about Lords would be elected too and should be given their politics, and does he not think that one of the reasons due recognition. At that point lies gridlock, when the for that is that we have an unelected House of Lords? two Houses come to different views on legislation, just as happens on occasion in the United States. Tom Greatrex: I think there are many more fundamental At that point, too, lies a terrible car crash. The House reasons why people are disappointed in politics. of Lords would no longer be a revising Chamber with a Before coming to the Chamber this afternoon—I clear view of its role in the parliamentary process; it have been here since the debate started—I checked and would be a House ready to assert its newly acquired found that two constituents have contacted me about status as an alternative elected House and would demand House of Lords reform and implored me to support it. an equal role. As things are, people know that they vote At the end of the letter—they are identical—it says: for their Government via electing their MPs. Instead “All I ask is for you to do one simple thing; keep to your of clarity, the proposed changes would simply create manifesto commitment and vote in favour of reforming the confusion. House of Lords.” I am not against any reform. Every institution needs I do not know whether other hon. Members have received to be refreshed and reformed from time to time, as does that letter. One was sent to me by a Liberal Democrat the House of Lords. Even now, there are entirely sensible, councillor—well, he was a Liberal Democrat councillor; reasonable and practical reforms on the table, thanks to he lost his seat in my ward earlier this year and was the Liberal Democrat Lord Steel, which would reduce replaced by the excellent Labour candidate—and I presume numbers, enforce proper attendance and ensure that that the other was from the other Liberal Democrat in those who fell foul of the law were excluded. They Cambuslang. So we know that there are some people would answer many of the problems that we all agree for whom this is a big issue. exist in the House of Lords, so why are we intent on In view of the lack of time, I shall not draw the taking the place completely apart, even as the constitutional House’s attention too much to the idea of being urged arrangements continue to work? to keep one’s manifesto commitments by Liberal Democrats, This is very difficult for me. I have always supported given their recent past. However, the lack of demonstrable the Government, on every vote, and I continue to be public interest does not mean that House of Lords reform proud of their many achievements. I also want to put is not important. It is important, and the consequences on record my admiration for the work of my right hon. of the Bill and their impact on the governance of the Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster country as a whole are such that it is important that we General, who is doing brilliant work in the Cabinet ensure that two things happen: first, that the Bill is Office on behalf of the taxpayer. I have very much properly scrutinised and, secondly, that public support enjoyed being part of his team. It is very disappointing is tested in a referendum, just as many significant that the other half of the Cabinet Office is in charge of constitutional changes have been in recent years. Given this legislation. that Bill will have an impact on the relationship between the two Houses of Parliament, that referendum is The Bill has the feel of back-of-the-fag-packet legislation, fundamentally important. got up in a hurry to meet a timetable. I cannot stop myself thinking that we are being asked to support the A range of concerns about the Bill need to be properly dismantling of a crucial part of our constitution for a discussed in Committee. Many hon. Members have short-term political fix. I simply cannot do that. expressed real concern about the 15-year term, the list system and, in particular, the inadequacy of clause 2, which deals with the relationship between the two Houses. 8.58 pm The hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ Ross (John Thurso) was admirably naive to suggest that Co-op): It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak there would not be some sort of mission creep from the briefly in the debate. I note the number of Members Lords. As others who have experience of regional list who are still seeking to catch your eye, Madam Deputy MSPs will know, it does not matter what is set out in the Speaker, and who will no doubt be seeking to do so code; behaviour is something quite different. tomorrow. A six-minute limit underlines the importance I wish to air two issues that have not been touched on that many of us attach to the Bill and the fact that there much so far. The first is regional representation. The is genuine concern about the time that we will be able to proponents of the Bill have made much of the idea that spend discussing some of these important issues. it will enable real and effective regional representation 117 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 118 within the second Chamber. Those who spend a lot number of issues that we never discussed because we ran more time considering these matters than I do know out of time. We cannot allow that to happen with this that that is a widely accepted role for second Chambers Bill so it is imperative that we have enough time. People in other countries. Schedule 2 to the Bill sets out the will ask how many days that means. It means that it formula for the allocation of the elected peers: in each takes as long as it takes to deal with all the issues to get of the three elections, Scotland gets 10, Wales gets six, the Bill in the best possible form before it proceeds to Northern Ireland three, and England 101. Thus, after the Lords. the first set of elections, the combined strength of Following on from my hon. Friend the Member for Scotland and Northern Ireland plus four of the Welsh Lewisham West and Penge (Jim Dowd), the Government representatives would be needed to outweigh the south-east would do well to stop using the line that we have been of England. talking about the subject for 100 years. We have not That formula is based on population share and, in been talking about this Bill for 100 years. There are big that sense, it is perfectly understandable, but it does not issues in the Bill that we need to get right. We need mean that the reformed House will represent the regional enough time to get them right if the Bill is to have any balance, as some have suggested. In the United States, chance of taking us forward. California gets no more senators than Wyoming, even though its population is 66 times larger—that is pure 9.6 pm regionalism. Germany has a different structure, with a minimum number of sets and then an additional number, Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): Thank according to population share, up to a maximum. As you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for your patience and the constitution unit notes, Germany is one of the generosity. I had to sprint across to St Thomas’s, where few countries without pressure to change its second my wife is having a scan. We are expecting our third chamber. If the proposals in the Bill are to be held up as child. a model of regional representation, those issues need The supporters of the Bill would have the country to be looked at. believe that those who are opposed to it are opponents Secondly, part 4 of the Bill contains the clauses dealing of democracy itself. Today I stand to refute that ugly with the number of bishops in the second Chamber. caricature. No one in the House is more committed to Over time, their number will be reduced. I think the British democracy than I. My family immigrated to Britain bishops in the House of Lords bring a different perspective. from an Iraq where democracy was spoken of only behind I am a great admirer of the Archbishop of York, whose closed doors, late at night, among trusted friends. Compared experience in Uganda brings something different to debates. to the brutal realities of Saddam’s rule, democracy was It seems that the remaining bishops are to be among the an abstract dream. Yet here in Britain there was a 20% of Members of the new House who are appointed. constitutional order which made democracy real, concrete, Why, though, do we not get rid of all the bishops, as embedded in the very fabric of our national life. some have advocated, or if they are to be appointed Here was a judiciary—unelected, I grant you—which Members, why do we not ensure representation from interpreted the law in the interests of the public, not of other faiths? There are Anglicans, Roman Catholics, the ruling party. Here was a Queen—again, unelected— Methodists, Presbyterians, Quakers, Baptists, members whose impregnable position as Head of State made sure of the Free Church and many others, and those are just that no politician could ever wield supreme power. And Christians. Should we not ensure that Jews, Muslims, here also was the oldest and greatest of Parliaments, an Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists and others are properly reflected elected House of Commons to embody the will of the among the Members appointed to the new Chamber? people, and an appointed House of Lords to stand as a Could we not make space for a Catholic Cardinal or the check against the tyranny of the majority. Chief Rabbi? I raise those two issues because they are issues that Jesse Norman: Does my hon. Friend share my view many people will not see as being of primary importance that it is in the balance of these extraordinary institutions as the debate goes forward, but they are two important and in their distinctive history that so much of the aspects of the composition of the second Chamber that genius of our history has been located? could be the casualty of the programme motion. Nadhim Zahawi: That is exactly right. I thank my Jim Dowd: I follow what my hon. Friend says, but are hon. Friend for that intervention. This is exactly the not international comparisons dangerous? The only constitution that I believe in and this is the constitution other legislature in the world that allows clerics, by dint that I will defend. This is not, as my hon. Friend the of their role, to be Members is . Does he think that Minister with responsibility for political and constitutional is a good model to follow? reform has said, some “silly game”. If recent events in the Arab world have shown us Tom Greatrex: I thank my hon. Friend for his anything, it is that democracy is not just about holding intervention. The point that I am making is that these elections. It is also about building institutions which are issues that people will seek to discuss during the ensure that the whole of society is represented, regardless Committee stage that are not of primary importance. of who is in power. The question that we should ask They may be secondary to other issues that have been ourselves today is whether British society will be better raised during the debate today and it is imperative that represented by 360 more career politicians accountable there is proper time to consider all those issues. One of to no one but their party. my frustrations since entering the House is that on a I am not complacent about the state of our democracy. much smaller constitutional Bill that was taken on the I know that Parliament currently faces a crisis of legitimacy Floor of the House, the Scotland Bill, there were a in the eyes of the country, but the cause of that crisis 119 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 120

[Nadhim Zahawi] The claim that the choice was put to the public at the general election does not hold up either. Where was the is not the other place. No. It is that deeply damaging choice when all the main parties offered it in their sense that politicians here, in this House, are out of manifestos? The polling overwhelmingly shows that an touch. elected House of Lords is not a priority. Does it stretch belief that voting intentions may have been dictated Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): largely by what our parties were promising to do on the Does my hon. Friend agree that reforming the other economy and public services, rather than on constitutional place will not solve the problems of reforming this reform? A referendum would ensure that the public place? This House needs to be more effective in holding have all the facts before making their choice known. In the Executive to account. Making changes down the the same polling I quoted earlier, even Liberal Democrat road, with who knows what outcome, is not the answer. support for these proposals fell to just 29% once the We must reform this House and ensure that the other costs of elections were factored in. House serves by revising our legislation, rather than I know that many colleagues will have been urged undermining the democratic supremacy of this House. to express their concerns on Third Reading, but those suggesting that approach are being disingenuous at Nadhim Zahawi: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. best. Unless a referendum clause is added now, there is One of the reasons why we in this place are perceived to no guarantee that it will be added later and, with a be out of touch is that people feel that we put the combination of the Parliament Acts being used and interests of party before those of our country, that we Opposition Members saying that they will support the care more about securing a party political legacy than Bill on Second and Third Reading, there is little chance about growth capital for our businesses or good local that a Back-Bench amendment would be successful. schools for our children. The public want a Parliament The only way that the views of hon. Members would be that legislates well and in the national interest, and they heard and debated properly is if we vote against the want MPs who are on their side and up to the job. They programme motion and, in the absence of a referendum do not want to see, and certainly do not want to pay for, clause, vote against the Bill’s Second Reading. Anything more politicians and more party patronage. else is merely a protest vote, not one that will make I have conducted new scientific polling that shows a difference. that 60% of the public are opposed to spending more money on politicians and elections, yet that is what the 9.15 pm Bill offers them. If we are really to fix Parliament, we must give it the tools to legislate better. Let us strengthen Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): The House of Lords has the role of Select Committees and give more time for more than 800 Members, and that is far too many; it Back-Bench business. Let us not solve the problem of a has Members who are there simply because of who broken legislature by making it harder to legislate. Let their fathers were; and, in this Parliament it has had so us not inflame the deep mistrust of party politics by many Liberal Democrats from Wales appointed to it bringing in a system that hands more power over to the that it sometimes seems there is none left to populate party machine. the Assembly. The House of Lords therefore needs reform, and for that reason I will vote to support the Bill’s I am a loyal critic of the other place. The White Paper Second Reading tomorrow. If there is no reform with states that it performs its role of scrutiny and revision this Bill, there will be no reform in this Parliament. with “distinction”, yet I know that there is much that we could do to improve it. We could reduce the number I will vote against the Government’s programme motion, of peers, abolish prime ministerial patronage, remove however, because the time that it allocates is wholly the final hereditary peers and increase the professional inadequate. This Bill is so important to all aspects of expertise that already makes such a great contribution our parliamentary system that it must be considered in to the quality of parliamentary debate. I have argued, its entirety, and all Members who have views that they and will continue to argue, for all this and more, but want to express should be permitted to do so. subverting the primacy of the Commons is not the I specifically asked the Whips to maintain strong answer to reform. opposition to any programme motion for this Bill primarily The Government know that it would be impossible to because of the Government’s appalling behaviour in write into law the conventions governing the relationship respect of the Parliamentary Voting System and between the Lords and Commons. As a result, the only Constituencies Act 2011. By their deeds shall ye know protection against legislative gridlock between the two them. I spent a great deal of time in this Chamber Houses would be the good faith of the new senators. We waiting to speak on the aspects of that legislation which would have to require 360 career politicians to promise affected our constitution, and on the relationship between not to use their new democratic mandate to oppose the Wales and the United Kingdom, but, in the words of will of the Commons. If one day in the future this the great Diana Ross, “I’m still waiting”, and I have no House is legislating on military action or an emergency doubt that if this programme motion is passed I will Budget, for example—situations in which time is of the have no opportunity to make my views known on the essence—we would run the risk of a costly delay as our profound inadequacies of this Bill. new senators discover the power and publicity that this My fundamental view is that it makes no sense to mandate conferred. Of course, we could always use the undertake such a profound review of the second Chamber Parliament Acts to ram a Bill through this new House without taking into account the massive constitutional of senators, but that hardly seems to signify a new era of change of devolution. It is high time that we approached democratic accountability to me. Indeed, how ironic constitutional reform in a holistic way. Every change to that the supporters of a Bill for reforming our democracy a part of our constitution affects the whole, and we are refusing to take their argument to the country. currently have more inquiries and commissions on different 121 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 122 aspects of our constitution than I can ever recall. We drafted, badly drawn and based on a compromise that should scrap the lot and undertake a single constitutional is not working. My concern is that proper consideration review, looking at the procedures of the House of will not take place because of the inadequacy of the Commons, the House of Lords and the devolved time that is allocated. The result will be a very bad Bill authorities, with the aim of arriving at a single, settled going to the Lords, where it will no doubt be scrutinised constitution. at greater length, and the reputation of the House of If there is one lesson to be learned from devolution, it Commons will be diminished still further. is that it opens a Pandora’s box of proposals to change the powers of the body it has created: the Scottish Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD) rose— Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales, the Northern Ireland Assembly and the London Assembly all pressed Ian Lucas: I give way to the right hon. Gentleman, to change their powers immediately upon being provided who has recently joined the debate; it is a shame that he with them. I have no doubt that any change to the was not here earlier. second Chamber will lead to exactly the same process, unless it is accompanied by a constitution defining its Sir Alan Beith: I was here for the earlier part of the powers. That is a massive flaw in the Bill. debate as well. Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman says that the Scottish The hon. Gentleman has declared that he is in favour Parliament looked for a change of powers immediately of reform. He cannot be so naive as not to realise that if upon its creation, but that is not true. In its first eight there is no timetable, those whose objective is not to years it was run by an unambitious Labour-Liberal have any reform along these lines will talk and talk to Democrat Government and did not look for any change try to drive the Bill out. Is he going to suggest a better to its powers. It is only now, with an ambitious Scottish timetable to those on his Front Bench? National party Government looking for further powers, that that is happening. Ian Lucas: It is quite something to be patronised by the right hon. Gentleman. I understand the position on Ian Lucas: That statement is simply untrue. There parliamentary procedure. I also understand that the was further devolution to the Scottish Parliament and Liberal Democrats suppressed my right to have my say to the National Assembly for Wales, and it happened about my constituency on behalf of my constituents throughout the course of devolution’s development in when the Minister stood at the Dispatch Box and the United Kingdom. denied the people of Wales the opportunity to discuss a There are further flaws in the Bill which we need to fundamental constitutional reform. I therefore know discuss. Creating separate types of Member of the that I cannot rely on him or his colleagues to allow me second Chamber is wrong: having elected Members, to speak on behalf of my constituents. The only way I appointed Members and bishops will create confusion will secure enough time so to do is to vote against the and undermine the democratic principle. Having bishops programme motion, as I certainly will on the basis of as Members is wrong, too. Giving precedence to Church the appalling behaviour of Members on the Liberal of England clerics is an extraordinary thing to do, and Democrat Benches. it is even more inexplicable on this very day, when the Church of England has decided not to appoint women 9.22 pm bishops. Is not having such a clause in the Bill a breach of the European convention on human rights? Will the Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): It is an honour Minister give a specific response on that point? and a privilege to speak in a debate of such fundamental As my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and importance. We have heard some truly fascinating speeches Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) said, little consideration from Members on both sides of the House. I personally has been given to the proportion of elected Members take the view that the weight of argument is firmly on allocated to each part of the United Kingdom. It appears the side of those who do not support the Bill, but we to have been done on a purely mathematical basis that have heard some interesting speeches across the board. takes no account of the different nations within the It is a particular honour to sit next to my hon. Friend UK. That point was well made by Dr Paul Behrens of the Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray), the university of Leicester, who refers to the very different who made what must have been a particularly difficult approaches taken in the United States and German speech. constitutions. The economy is struggling, the eurozone is tanking, The use of the 15-year term that many Members have the banks are in crisis, and Syria is burning. Our constituents mentioned is appalling, and I am amazed that it has must be blinking in bewilderment at the time, effort and survived from the draft Bill. I have not spoken to anyone political energy being expended— who supports it, and I was astonished to hear one or two Members do so even though they are in a tiny Mr MacNeil: Has the hon. Gentleman made many minority. It is a recipe for the creation of isolated, speeches in this House on those subjects, or is he just narcissistic Members of a second Chamber who will here to talk about House of Lords reform? have no connection whatever to the real world. Those are just a few of my concerns on the specifics Dan Byles: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I of the Bill; I have many more and I am sure that more am here today to speak about this extremely important will occur to me as we discuss the matter. I have no issue, but I speak regularly in this Chamber about doubt that further issues will arise when the Bill is key events and intervene in others. I am not one of considered in detail, because it is a bad, bad Bill—badly those Members who chalks up short speeches on 123 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 124

[Dan Byles] should at least come to the House to explain what the upper Chamber is supposed to do, what it is about the TheyWorkForYou and then judges themselves by the current system that is failing to achieve that end and number of speeches they have made rather than their how the proposals will achieve that end better. quality. It seems to me that the Bill fails in what it sets out to As I said, our constituents are blinking in bewilderment achieve. It will not make the upper House more accountable. at the amount of time we are spending discussing this I will not repeat the arguments involving the party list issue, but discuss it we must—[Interruption.] system and the 15-year terms, but the new Members will not be accountable. The Bill will not end the Prime Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Mr MacNeil, Minister’s right of patronage. Ministerial Members will I have had enough. You keep interrupting everybody. be appointed by the Prime Minister, not by an independent This debate has been going on all day. I ask you to sit appointments commission, and he will be able to appoint there quietly and stop trying to disrupt other people’s as many of them as he wants. As long as fewer than speeches. eight of them are serving as Ministers at the time, he can appoint more. He can appoint eight on day one. If they all resign on day two, he can appoint eight more. Dan Byles: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. He can do that every day. The power of parliamentary Discuss this issue we must. Most Conservative Members patronage is therefore still there. That means that it will are of the view that we would rather not, but if we have not be an 80% elected Chamber. If each Prime Minister to it must be discussed fully and properly. This is a appoints only eight ministerial Members in each Parliament fundamental and irreversible constitutional change. It and they stay for three Parliaments, it will be a 74% is not normal Government business. The idea that such elected Chamber. Let us call it what it is. And that is a change should be rammed through with the routine ignoring the Lords Spiritual. whipping and programming is unthinkable. The Bill is not about democracy. Too many people Jesse Norman: Has my hon. Friend raised that topic who support it seem to think that simply using the word with the Ministers who are responsible for constitutional “democracy” shuts down the debate. That is not the affairs? I would be very interested to hear what the case. I was a soldier for nine years. I took the Queen’s answer was. commission and served Her Majesty. I was taught at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and the Royal Military Dan Byles: My hon. Friend is being naughty, because College at Shrivenham to uphold and preserve democracy he knows that I have. He knows that there was some and the rule of law, which I do. I challenge anybody in confusion in the Ministers’ office about how many this Chamber to tell me that I do not support democracy. times the Prime Minister could appoint eight ministerial That I support it does not mean that I must support Members. At one point, it was suggested that they the Bill. could appoint only eight per Parliament. However, a My hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills constitutional expert in the upper House, whom I shall (Mr Shepherd) described eloquently our complex and not name because I have not asked his permission, ancient constitution. The right hon. Member for Birkenhead assures me that as the Bill is written, there is no limit (Mr Field) made a passionate speech on the nature of on the number of ministerial Members who can be the upper House and its specific and unique role in our appointed. constitution, which does not automatically require that The scope for constitutional deadlock that the Bill its Members be elected. I was rather hoping that I will bring about has been described at great length and would be called to speak immediately after him, because with eloquence. Those who want us to give the other place I would have been tempted to say, “What he said,” and what they see as more democratic legitimacy cannot run sit down. away from the fact that it will want to use and exert that My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John legitimacy. Stevenson) ran through a list of other parts of our I am pleased that the Deputy Prime Minister is back system that are elected. Interestingly, I have the same in his place, because I would like to pick up on one of list in my speech in order to make the opposite point. his points, if he is listening. He is not. He was naughty My constituents already have the opportunity to elect in his opening speech when he discussed the potential every level of government. They elect parish councillors, costs of the reform, because he included the costs of borough councillors, county councillors, Members of reducing the size of this place. The House will know Parliament and MEPs. They elect their Government that that was in entirely separate legislation that will be when they elect their MP. That is our system. If we on the statute book regardless of whether this Bill is move, in an ill-thought-out way, to a system in which accepted. That reduction should form the baseline from they also elect, in a manner of speaking—I am not a fan which the costs of the Bill are judged. of this system of proportional representation—Members I stood on a manifesto commitment to seek consensus of the other place, which House will form the Government? on House of Lords reform. It is quite clear that that That system will result in confusion and chaos. consensus has not been reached. When the Joint Committee, This change is being imposed. There is no suggestion in an unprecedented move, issued a minority report that it will go to the people in a referendum, unlike the signed by almost half its members urging that a question of whether the people of Coventry want an constitutional convention be set up, because this matter elected mayor, as numerous colleagues have pointed was too important to be left to grubby political horse- out. Apparently, this fundamental change to the constitution trading, people should have sat up and take notice. That of our country is not suitable for a referendum. The is why I cannot support the Bill and certainly cannot people who want to impose this fundamental change support the programme motion. 125 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 126

9.30 pm Many hon. Members have referred to the primacy of the Commons, including, to mention just a few, my Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): right hon. Friend the Member for Derby South (Margaret Today’s debate has been passionate and knowledgeable, Beckett), the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) and it will stand as a fine example of the House at its and my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and best. We have heard numerous excellent contributions Broughton (Graham Stringer). It is now 101 years since from right hon. and hon. Members, and we have heard the Parliament Act 1911, a measure that the House laid a range of differing views from all parts of the House— before Parliament to curb the powers of the other place. some were in favour of the Bill and some against, but We should consider how emboldened an elected second most speakers acknowledged that in the name of Chamber might be if it disagrees with the Commons. parliamentary democracy the proposals in it needed to As my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting said, feel the heat of Members’ thorough scrutiny. clause 2 reasserts the powers of the Parliament Acts, Labour Members can be proud of an unmatched but it is silent on the future power and roles of a reformed record on reform, as my right hon. Friend the Member Chamber, and relies on the evolution of conventions for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) made clear at the beginning for the maintenance of Commons primacy. An elected of the debate. We have introduced many of the changes second Chamber could evolve to challenge the conventions. in the relationship between this House and the House of Rigorous debate informed by constitutional expertise is Lords, and we are proud to be the party of reform. The required on Commons primacy. As the Foreign Secretary House of Lords Act 1999 finally removed the hereditary has said in the past, it is important to know and to try principle from membership of the second Chamber. to establish where such measures lead. Interestingly, the decision elicited this response from the The Opposition believe that such a major constitutional then Leader of the Opposition, the current Foreign change should be put before the British people in a Secretary, referendum—another hot topic in the debate. The idea “let me make it clear…that we believe it is wrong to embark on was supported by numerous Members, including my fundamental change to the Parliament of this country without hon. Friends the Members for Rutherglen and Hamilton any idea where that will lead.”—[Official Report, 2 December 1998; Vol. 321, c. 876.] West (Tom Greatrex) and for Dudley North (Ian Austin), and my right hon. Friends the Members for Knowsley It would be interesting to know whether the Foreign (Mr Howarth) and for Kingston upon Hull West and Secretary feels the same about the Deputy Prime Minister’s Hessle (Alan Johnson). The last of those made it clear desire to curb parliamentary scrutiny of the Bill. My to the House, in his usual straightforward and blunt feeling is that he just might. style, that he is a strong supporter of the reforms, but he The result of the 1999 Act was that, overnight, the also made it very clear that he supports a referendum. If size of the other place was reduced from more than cities can have referendums to decide whether they want 1,300 to just 669. In 2006 we created the post of elected a mayor, surely it is right to trust the British people on Lord Speaker, separated the judiciary from the Lords such a major change to our democracy. by establishing the Supreme Court and created people’s One must be careful that referendums do not undermine peers—all steps that strengthened our democracy. the representative nature of our democracy, but there is It is also important to remember that in 2003 and a strong case for the mechanism when major constitutional 2007 Labour initiated votes on whether there should be change is proposed. a fully or partly elected second Chamber. Although the 2003 votes were inconclusive, the 2007 votes favoured a Duncan Hames: The hon. Lady is keen to tell us that 100% elected second Chamber. The Opposition recognise the Labour party supports Lords reform and wants a that vote and believe that the job of Lords reform will referendum. Will it therefore campaign for a yes vote to not be complete until we have a 100% elected second deliver House of Lords reform in such a referendum? Chamber. We committed to that in our last manifesto, and we stand by that commitment. The Deputy Prime Minister agreed with that policy just Angela Smith: That depends entirely on what the Bill over a year ago, as my right hon. Friend the Member for looks like when it is presented to the British people. Tooting said earlier. I wonder what made him abandon Hon. Members who have sat through the past seven yet another apparently strong belief. Page 88 of the hours of the debate will realise that the vast majority of Liberal Democrats’ 2010 manifesto stated that they Members of the House want the Bill debated thoroughly would: and amended to make it fit to put before the British people. The Joint Committee agreed unanimously on “Replace the House of Lords with a fully-elected second that point. It remains a mystery to Opposition Members chamber with considerably fewer members than the current House.” that the party that was so keen to hold a referendum on Despite all that, the Deputy Prime Minister has made the alternative vote system is so shy of supporting a proposals for only an 80% elected House—then again, referendum to determine the essence of our democracy we all know how much the Deputy Prime Minister’s and our parliamentary institutions. What on earth are manifesto promises are worth. Leaving that to one side, they afraid of? it should be clear to all Members that the Bill deserves the fullest possible scrutiny, precisely because of issues such as I have mentioned. The Joint Committee was Mr Jenkin: I remind the hon. Lady that the Liberal split, and it is clear that a rigorous debate is required Democrats were not keen to have a referendum on the before the issue is settled in statute. The House’s task, AV system; it was forced on them by circumstance. therefore, is to ensure that the Bill is fit for the long term, fit to endure in our democracy and fit to last a Angela Smith: The hon. Gentleman makes a good great deal longer than the legacy of its main architect. point. 127 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 128

[Angela Smith] has underlined the point made by the other place. For the most part, this debate has been good humoured and The Bill clearly needs improvement if it is to work civilised. He should respond by curbing his excesses and effectively to strengthen our democracy and our law-making working with colleagues, not against them. processes. It needs to be informed by rigorous debate and further consideration of constitutional expertise. It Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): The right needs scrutinising not only in relation to the issues I hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) was brilliantly have already referred to, but in relation to the size of the opaque in his view of Labour’s plans for timetabling. proposed Chamber, which was mentioned by a large Will the hon. Lady be a littler clearer about Labour’s proportion of the Members who contributed to the plans for Third Reading? Does she propose to support debate; the proposed length of terms of representation; Third Reading, oppose it or abstain? the transition period; and the voting system for the election of its Members. The Bill currently recommends Angela Smith: The House needs to decide what are a semi-open list system, as opposed to the single transferable the important principles in the Bill. It needs proper vote proposed in the draft Bill. Today, however, we have discussion, and we have made it clear that we will work witnessed a lack of clarity about what the numerous with the Government to ensure that progress is made, variations of proportional representation mean, so once but we do not believe it appropriate to pre-programme again the need for thorough debate has been firmly the timetable. We have been absolutely clear on that. underlined. Many colleagues today have had to curtail their The Bill proposes the biggest constitutional change comments because of the time pressures, and it is clear our country has seen since the Parliament Act 1911, that the appetite for further debate is strong. We support which is why we need to take care over its progress—we the Second Reading of this far-from-perfect Bill but need to get it right. It would damage our democracy if believe that today’s debate has put it firmly on the the House were to force through the Bill without adequate record that the House does not wish to give the Bill a debate and scrutiny—an argument that has asserted swift passage into law, as the Deputy Prime Minister itself at every twist and turn of this debate. It was suggested earlier. Rather, it wants thoroughly to scrutinise mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham and improve the Bill and make it fit for presentation to (Ian Lucas), my right hon. Friend the Member for the electorate in a referendum. I, with the rest of the Stirling (Mrs McGuire), my hon. Friends the Members House, look forward to tomorrow’s debate. for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), my right hon. Friend the 9.44 pm Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham West and Penge (Jim Dowd) The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of and my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): Idonot Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett)—to mention think that any self-imposed injunction on personal and just a few. disparaging comments could have been breached quite so promptly as it was by the hon. Member for Penistone My right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) just then, with her Brightside and Hillsborough pointed out that a range reference to my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime of views are present in this debate. The fact of those Minister. Nevertheless, this has been a good debate, in views absolutely makes the case for a period of thorough which 36 Back Benchers have had the opportunity to scrutiny. I would particularly mention the right hon. speak so far—and of course, it is only half-time. Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames), who pointed There has been good support for the Bill—some out rightly that Members need to read carefully the qualified and some wholehearted—and it has been comments of the Clerk of the House about the reforms, expressed by many. We have heard good speeches from particularly in relation to Commons primacy. That is a my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland really important point. Members need to acquaint and Easter Ross (John Thurso), my right hon. Friend themselves with those comments and concerns before the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy), making up their minds about the Bill on Third Reading. the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), and the Moreover, it would help the Bill if the Commons arrived hon. Members for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), for at a consensus on the way forward by hammering out Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), for Cities of agreed positions via a process of debate and amendment. London and Westminster (Mark Field), for Rhondda The Opposition welcome reform of the House of (Chris Bryant), for South Thanet (Laura Sandys), for Lords, and want to secure its progress and conduct the Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) and for Carlisle process constructively. My concluding words are therefore (John Stevenson). Let me single out for special comment directed at the Deputy Prime Minister, who was asked the exceptional speech by the right hon. Member for in a letter sent to him last week by a Member of the Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), other place to show a little more respect for our ermine-clad who made the important point that what we have before colleagues: us builds on what the right hon. Member for Blackburn “If the future of one of the key parts of our British Constitution (Mr Straw) started and what Robin Cook produced in is to be debated in a responsible way, it is surely important that conversation with other parties, which is the bedrock of deliberate factual errors and insulting insinuations should not be the consensus—which I hope we can still reach—on part of the debate.” reform of the House of Lords. The House is familiar with the cavalier manner that There have also been speeches against the Bill. I am the Deputy Prime Minister deploys when making his afraid that some have erected straw men so as to knock arguments, and we are well accustomed to his tendency them down, mentioning things that have simply never to exaggerate to make an argument, but today’s debate been suggested by the Government, but which hon. 129 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 130

Members nevertheless felt the need to speak against. answer on the issue of the guillotine? Why, when he was However, some speeches were well argued. I would like always against it in principle before, is he now in favour to single out the hon. Members for Altrincham and Sale of it? West (Mr Brady), for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) and for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray), who I Mr Heath: I said that I would come on to the programme know will have had difficulty making the comments she motion in a moment. did today. We can disagree with people but still respect the arguments they put forward. Of course I do not Sadiq Khan: Do it now. agree with them in opposing the legislation, but I respect the way they put their arguments. Mr Heath: The right hon. Gentleman says “Do it Some Members are simply against an elected House. now.” I asked him dozens of times how long he had I respect that, although of course I do not agree with waited for this Bill, and he never replied. Not once, so them. It is not what their respective parties put before he can pipe down! the electorate—it is not what they said in their manifestos— Others argue that they want reform, but not now, as but it is frankly a pointless endeavour trying to bash round there are and always will be other priorities. They are the head someone who is committed to unicameralism, absolutely right that economic issues must be pre-eminent. such as the right hon. Members for Derby South (Margaret That is the reason for this coalition Government, but it Beckett) or for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), or the does not stop the House doing other things, and it never hon. Members for Blackley and Broughton (Graham has. It did not prevent this House from passing one of Stringer) or for Lewisham West and Penge (Jim Dowd). the most important pieces of legislation on social policy Someone who believes that there should be no second we have ever had—the Education Act 1944—in the House will not support proposals for reform. I understand middle of a world war. I simply do not believe that this that: it is a perfectly proper argument. House cannot address more than one issue at a time. Many others appear to think—this is a view shared A variety of Members said that they want reform, by many appointed peers—that any system that appointed but not this reform. Some have argued that it is a such exemplars of legislative acuity and perfection as mixture of proposals and not the unadulterated product themselves must be an exceedingly good system indeed. of a single party’s programme. That is true, but these I do not necessarily share that view. I have great respect are the same people who also argue that we have failed for the quality of much of the work of the present to listen to others and that we have failed to reach House of Lords—and, indeed, for the quality of many consensus. We have tried to find common ground between individual peers. However, that is not a sufficient argument the parties, and that is what is before us today. for a system that, I believe, is simply not sustainable. Many Members—particularly, I have to say, those Mr George Howarth: Will the Deputy Leader of the sitting on the Government Benches—are those whom House tell us when, during the course of that 101 years I remember railing against the prospect of a House of that he mentioned, the notion of a 15-year term first cronies when we last debated this subject, but they seem came about? content with the idea of a fully appointed House. It is not a view I share. Mr Heath: The right hon. Gentleman may not have noticed that we have had 14 months discussing these proposals, including by a Joint Committee of both Houses Mr Jenkin: I remember the hon. Gentleman railing that looked at these proposals. We have had detailed against Governments who impose timetables and guillotines scrutiny of this Bill, and we will continue to do so. when he was in opposition, so how can he now come to this House and guillotine a constitutional measure—which rose— would have been unthinkable under Winston Churchill, Mrs Laing incidentally—which is not going to be subject to a referendum and may be Parliament Acted, so that when Mr Heath: I will give way to the hon. Lady in a few it is being scrutinised by the other place, he will have no moments. option but to propose that the same damaged and We also heard the proposals, from the hon. Member inadequate Bill go back to the other House, as he tries for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) and others, that we to force it through? should be going for Lord Steel’s Bill. Lord Steel has put forward some small and valuable proposals, but if anyone honestly believes that those small incremental changes Mr Heath: I will return to the issue of the programme that would put right the legislative incapacity of the motion in just a moment, but let me deal first with the previous Government actually address the fundamental rather familiar arguments that have been marshalled. constitutional issues about the House of Lords, I have There are those who say that they are for reform, but to say that they are fundamentally wrong. not yet. They say it is too precipitate and that there has been insufficient scrutiny. This process has been about Mrs Laing: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for as precipitate as the reckless progress of a particularly noting that the Joint Committee produced a report. arthritic slug. We have had what I would describe as Why has it never been debated in this House? pre-legislative scrutiny on this for 101 years. This is not a quick process. Mr Heath: It might be because we were anticipating 14 days of debate on this measure. The fact that the Mr Graham Stuart: Following up the question asked Government acceded to the majority of the by my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North recommendations of the Joint Committee shows that Essex (Mr Jenkin), will the hon. Gentleman please the Government have been prepared to listen. 131 House of Lords Reform Bill9 JULY 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill 132

[Mr Heath] Jesse Norman: In that case, can the hon. Gentleman explain why the same Lord Pannick has been so devastating Some have criticised the voting system, particularly in his criticisms that were published this afternoon? this semi-open list. I made the point in an earlier intervention that that was something that the Labour Mr Heath: I do not believe that he has, but that is an party asked for. Of course, it asks for something and argument to which we can return in Committee. then it votes against it later, but that is par for the course; we expect that. To those who believe that a list The hon. Member for Winchester (Steve Brine) compared with a voting constituency of millions is not better than the Deputy Prime Minister with Andy Murray. I think a closed list with a voting capacity of one—the Prime that, if anything, he is more like Jonny Marray, in that Minister of the day, putting forward his or her nominations he is a champion doubles partner, and on that basis the to the upper House—I have to say that I simply do not coalition has been succeeding. accept that argument. Let me now deal with what I think is one of the most important issues on which we shall have to reach a Hazel Blears: Can the Deputy Leader of the House conclusion tomorrow. There are those, predominantly honestly say from the Dispatch Box today that this Bill in the official Opposition, who will vote for the end but is genuinely about increasing democracy rather than not for the means, namely the programme motion. I simply a device to sustain his party as the one holding have long argued, as has my right hon. Friend the Leader the balance of power in a second Chamber? of the House, that programme motions should, wherever possible, be arranged by agreement. They should be for Mr Heath: The right hon. Lady will have to make up the convenience of the House: they should enable debate, her mind. Either the right hon. Lady believes that we not restrict it. That is the way in which we have managed are not going to win any seats in the next election, in things in this Parliament so far. which case we will not have any seats in the House of Lords under this system—although we would under an I repeatedly asked the right hon. Member for Tooting appointment system—or the reverse. She cannot have it (Sadiq Khan) how much more time he wanted. He has both ways. I am afraid that there is a slight logical 10 days for the Committee stage in addition to the two inconsistency in her argument. days for Second Reading and the two days for Report, The issue of ministerial appointments was raised, 14 days in all. I asked him repeatedly how many more and I am happy for us to examine that in Committee. days he wanted, but answer came there none. The The right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Opposition cannot say how many days they want, because Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) inveighed against the practice they decided to vote against the programme motion of bringing people in from outside, giving them ministerial before it had been published or even suggested. I believe posts and putting them in the upper House. I wonder that 14 days out of a total of 88—only 88 days are whether he ever had that conversation with Lord Mandelson available to the Government for legislative business of Foy and Hartlepool, or with any of the other GOATs during a whole year—are sufficient. If the right hon. who were brought in by the last Government. Gentleman has a proposal, let him come up with it; but if, as I suspect, he has no proposal whatsoever other Mr Blunkett: The point that I was attempting to than a determination to oppose, he is doing his own make—obviously not successfully—was that those Ministers argument a great disservice. were brought in as, and remained, Members of Parliament. The Government’s proposals do not allow that. They Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman just said that his impose a system which will mean that, for the first time fundamental principle was that a programme motion in our constitutional history, Ministers will not be part should be allowed only when it was for the convenience of and embedded in our Parliament. of the House. If he has not learned from today’s debate that this programme motion is not for the convenience Mr Heath: The right hon. Gentleman may not have of the House, should he not withdraw it? studied the Bill assiduously enough. It is true that that those Ministers will not be there for life: the right hon. Gentleman is right about that. Under the present system Mr Heath: I think that that remains to be seen, but if they are there for life even when they have clearly we are still on clause 1 after 12 days, the House will not outlived their ministerial usefulness. have done the Bill justice in its scrutiny. We heard arguments in favour of secondary election, I have no doubt that the tomorrow’s debate will be and I think that that is a perfectly valid debate for us to argued just as keenly as today’s. I think, and the Government have in Committee. We also heard arguments about think, that this measure is long overdue, and the polls primacy. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) show that the British public want it. It puts into effect made what I considered to be a very sensible suggestion the modest proposition that those who make our laws about the possibility of a concordat. I thank him for should be elected by our people, and I commend it to that: it is something that we need to debate. the House. The hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) asked which legal expert the Government Mr Speaker: I am sure that we are very grateful to the had consulted on clause 2. It was Lord Pannick, who I Deputy Leader of the House. I was sorry that he ended believe the hon. Gentleman thinks is a very good lawyer his remarks. We were enjoying them and thinking that indeed. they would continue until 10 pm, but they did not. Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.—(James Jesse Norman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Duddridge.) Mr Heath: Very briefly. Debate to be resumed tomorrow. 133 House of Lords Reform Bill 9 JULY 2012 134

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Business of the House (11 July) Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Debate resumed. Order No. 15), Question (5 July) again proposed, That, at this day’s sitting, proceedings on the Motion in the name of Sir George Young relating to Business of the House That at the sitting on Wednesday 11 July— (11 July) may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour, (1) the Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.— proceedings on the Motions relating to Sittings of the House and (James Duddridge.) September Sittings not later than two hours after the commencement Question agreed to. of proceedings on the first Motion; such Questions shall include the Questions on any Amendments selected by the Speaker which may then be moved; the Questions may be put after the moment of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply; and (2) notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 20 (Time for taking private business), the Private Business set down by the Chairman of Ways and Means shall be entered upon at the conclusion of the backbench business on that day, and may then be proceeded with, though opposed, for three hours, after which the Speaker shall interrupt the business; the business may be entered upon after the moment of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(James Duddridge.)

Mr Speaker: As Mr Chope was speaking when the debate was adjourned, I feel sure he will want to continue his sentence where he left it off.

10 pm Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Listening to the Deputy Leader of the House took me back some 24 years to the time when I was on the Front Bench having to do a similar job—winding up the first day of a two-day debate—although in my case it was on the community charge legislation. I am delighted that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is turning around, because he was a participant in that debate, and was very much against the community charge. I remember how difficult it was to argue from the Front Bench, given the atmosphere in the House. A lot of Government Members, including my right hon. Friend, were against the community charge, as well as Opposition Members of course. I therefore sympathise enormously with what the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) has had to do in the last few minutes. He should take the message that I should have taken on that occasion: when he can see that everything is loaded against him, it is better to call it a day now and abandon the Bill rather than persist with it.

Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that the lesson that we all learned at that time was that the Government should sometimes listen carefully to the advice of their close friends?

Mr Chope: I could not agree more with my right hon. Friend. His speech today made the case that the Government should think again, withdraw the Bill and make a fresh start. The business before us relates to our discussions on Wednesday, and I want to make sure that Members who might wish to debate Wednesday’s business on the sitting hours of the House recognise that if they support this motion, they will be limiting the time for discussion to two hours. If they want to do that, that is fine, but I think it is right and proper that Members should have the opportunity to consider whether they wish to limit that debate to two hours. 135 Business of the House (11 July) 9 JULY 2012 136

[Mr Chope] I need elaborate my remarks no further. All I need to say is that, having raised this debate, it is right and My other point is that it has been a long-standing proper that the Deputy Leader of the House should try tradition and convention in this House that a specific to make a better job of responding to this debate than period of time is set aside for the consideration of he did to the previous one. private business: three hours, between 4 pm and 7 pm on a Wednesday or between 7 pm and 10 pm on a Tuesday. Nowadays, however, the Government almost 10.8 pm invariably seek to introduce a motion undermining that The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of principle. The consequence is that Members are left in the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): I cannot doubt as to what the order of business will be and, if imagine why any right hon. or hon. Member of this they are concerned about private business, whether they House should ever have formed the impression that will have their special three-hour slot allocated to them, they were here beyond 10 pm purely because the hon. or whether it will be interfered with by the business Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) wanted to speak. managers. There are some important principles at stake, That is an outrageous suggestion and I would certainly therefore. not put it from this Dispatch Box. What I am saying is: when it comes to discussing This business motion is before us purely at the request these issues on Wednesday why can we not say that of the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee and between 4 pm and 7 pm, if it takes that long, we should the Chair of the Procedure Committee. They asked the be able to discuss the private business, as set down Government whether we could arrange business, none under Standing Order No. 20? Why do we need to say of which is Government business, to accommodate the that the business of the House starting with the September House’s wish to have the opportunity to debate very sittings motion and followed by the debate on VAT on important matters, given the change in the arrangements ambulance services should be able to force the private that was made to accommodate the debate on the business much later on in the agenda, perhaps until inquiry into bankers last week. 11 pm or later? The consequence of that is that some hon. Members Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): The Chairman of will stay behind because they are told that, although it the Backbench Business Committee did indeed make is private business, it is very important and the Government strong representations to the Government about the want them to be here. They feel that they have to hang Back-Bench business that was lost last Thursday because on in there late because the Government have told them of the Government’s business on the inquiry into banking, to do so. The Government then blame me or somebody and asked them to ensure that that business was reinstated. else; they say, “The reason you are staying late is because Having heard what the hon. Member for Christchurch the hon. Member for Christchurch has required that (Mr Chope) said about the sittings motions and the you should stay late by talking this business long.” All I private business, I would like clarification that the air am saying is that we have a three-hour slot on Wednesday, ambulance debate selected by the Backbench Business so can we not keep that for private business? Committee, which has support from many Members on both sides of the House, will get the two hours that the Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): My hon. Government intended. Friend is being very unfair to the Government. The suggestion that this Government would try to whip Mr Heath: The answer, very simply, is that it will if private business is absolutely outrageous; they would the motion is agreed to. The motion provides for the not require Members to stay behind. Procedure Committee’s reports to be debated properly; for the hon. Gentleman’s motion, which I know is of interest to many Members and those outside this House, Mr Chope: Of course my hon. Friend is right to say to be debated properly; and for three hours to be given that ultimately it is for hon. Members to decide whether over to opposed private business. There is no detriment they are willing to be whipped by the Government into to the House whatsoever in acceding to the requests supporting or opposing private business and whether made to us and I am happy to assist. we should allow some things in this House—private business—to be decided by Members on an individual Question put and agreed to. basis, using their own judgment. So be it. I can recall strongly opposing a private Bill that Business without Debate would have resulted in a substantial destruction of the amenities and environment in Southampton. I was grateful that a lot of then Government Members, including the DELEGATED LEGISLATION then Home Secretary, supported me in the Lobby against the Bill; he wondered afterwards what he had been voting Mr Speaker: With the leave of the House, we shall for, but I explained that it was in a really good cause. take motions 3 to 6 together. I admit that there are precedents, but why should we Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing want to oppose having a proper discussion of why we Order No. 118(6), should be carrying on with certain private legislation that has been hanging around in this House for not just one or two years, but for two Sessions or more—for two EDUCATION Parliaments or more? I believe that one of the motions That the draft Further Education Institutions and 16 to we will be debating on Wednesday goes back to 2007, 19 Academies (Specification and Disposal of Articles) Regulations when it was first introduced in the House. 2012, which were laid before this House on 24 May, be approved. 137 Business without Debate 9 JULY 2012 138

CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS Dangerous Driving That the draft Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups (Miscellaneous Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Amendments) Order 2012, which was laid before this House on do now adjourn.—(James Duddridge.) 14 May, be approved. That the draft Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 10.11 pm (Controlled Activity and Prescribed Criteria) Regulations 2012, Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): I am grateful for which were laid before this House on 14 May, be approved. the opportunity to raise my concerns about the lack of current road traffic measures to address the incidence of COAST PROTECTION fatalities and serious injuries caused by foreign drivers That the draft Designation of Features (Appeals) (England) driving on the wrong side of the road in the UK. The Regulations 2012, which were laid before this House on 11 June, UK, as we all know, is one of the few remaining areas be approved.—(James Duddridge.) within the EU and internationally whose drivers drive Question agreed to. on the left-hand side of the road. The sparse statistics available on such road traffic accidents would suggest REGULATORY REFORM that more attention needs to be paid to such tragic accidents and that steps need to be taken to reduce or Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing even prevent them. Order No. 18(1)(A)), On 11 September 2010, Andrew Alexander McLean, a 22-year-old, was returning home from his work in the CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS Scottish borders when a car driven by a French driver That the draft Legislative Reform (Annual Review of Local approached him on the wrong side of the road at the Authorities) Order 2012, which was laid before this House on crest of a hill. Andrew saw the oncoming vehicle and 10 May, be approved.—(James Duddridge.) steered for the verge, but, sadly, as the French driver was Question agreed to. on the wrong side of the road he too steered for the verge straight into Andrew, who was killed instantly. DELEGATED LEGISLATION Although, as we can imagine, this is still a very sensitive matter for Andrew’s family, they have asked me to raise Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing the matter through this debate in the hope that it will be Order No. 118(6), given more prominence. The French driver, a 23-year-old schoolteacher, was LOCAL GOVERNMENT driving in the UK for the first time in his left-hand drive That the draft Local Authorities (Mayoral Elections) (England Peugeot 307 when the accident happened, and the and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2012, which were laid before this House on 12 June, be approved.—(James Duddridge.) subsequent court case in Selkirk heard that the accident was caused Question agreed to. “by a moment’s inattention resulting from the accused’s inexperience of driving in the UK”. EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS The accused’s defence lawyer claimed there were no Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing aggravating factors in the build-up to the accident such Order No. 119(11), as speeding or lack of rest. He momentarily suffered a lapse in concentration and responded by acting instinctively, moving to the right-hand side of the road, which was the HOME AFFAIRS FUNDS FOR 2014-20 right side for him but was sadly the wrong side of the That this House takes note of European Union Documents road in Scotland. Even given those mitigating circumstances, No. 17289/11, relating to a draft Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council establishing the Asylum and Andrew’s family feels that the court’s sentence was Migration Fund, No. 17287/11, relating to a draft Regulation of lenient, although I appreciate that that is not an issue the European Parliament and of the Council establishing, as part for tonight’s discussion. of the Internal Security Fund, the instrument for financial support Such accidents are a tragedy for the victim and in for police cooperation, preventing and combating crime, and many cases the perpetrator. Often forgotten are the crisis management and No. 17285/11, a draft Regulation laying families of the victim, and I was initially alerted to this down general provisions on the Asylum and Migration Fund and on the instrument for financial support for police cooperation, case by Andrew’s grandmother, Mrs Billett, who is a preventing and combating crime, and crisis management; and constituent living in Stirling. I have been specifically supports the Government’s aim of encouraging flexibility and asked to highlight the case by Andrew’s family, including reducing waste and bureaucracy in the management of these his father, as they wish to see the Government take steps Funds.—(James Duddridge.) to investigate ways to prevent foreign drivers from driving Question agreed to. on the wrong side of the road. I want to put a series of points to the Minister, perhaps with a view to investigating such road deaths and helping to reduce their number. I am aware, as he will be, that the Scottish Government have some devolved responsibility for road issues, such as accidents on Scottish roads, and I understand that they have published a policy framework, “Go Safe on Scotland’s Roads it’s Everyone’s Responsibility”, which covers the period up to 2020. Chapter 7 of that document refers to a Scottish Government report of 2001, stating that although “tourist activity does not significantly boost road accident numbers in the rural… areas of Scotland” 139 Dangerous Driving9 JULY 2012 Dangerous Driving 140

[Mrs Anne McGuire] opinion at the time of reporting. It is recognised that subsequent enquires could lead to the reporting officer changing his/her such accidents do occur and most often opinion.”—[Official Report, 29 November 2011; Vol. 536, c. 892W.] “involved driving on the wrong side, turning, and crossing the centre line”, It would appear, therefore, that full statistics are not while 20% of collisions caused by cross-border drivers available for foreign drivers driving on the wrong side of occurred when the driver was on the wrong side of the the road and being involved in fatal or serious accidents. road. Since his tragic death, Andrew McLean’s family have As far as I can ascertain, the policy of the Scottish been campaigning for Government measures that would Government in relation to foreign drivers on Scottish reduce or prevent similar fatalities in the future. They roads is the publication of a tourist information guide have spent considerable time researching possible options, for foreign drivers, which includes a “keep left” sticker and they have advised me that some devices could be available in four languages. I am not sure whether a fitted to foreign cars being driven on UK roads. One similar minimum warning is given at ports in other parts such device, Lanesafe, is produced by a Scottish company, of the UK. In certain areas, there are warning signs to although I understand that other types of equipment “keep left”. are available. The manufacturers of Lanesafe have suggested that annually 8 million vehicles travel between the UK An issue allied to the circumstances surrounding and Europe and vice versa, and more than 80% of Andrew’s death is the number of foreign truck drivers drivers admit to momentarily, at some point, driving on involved in road accidents in the UK. A press report of the wrong side of the road. I am not sure whether those February 2012 suggested that one in every 31 motorway figures can be substantiated, but if they are accurate, I accidents in the UK was the fault of lorry drivers from would contend that this subject requires much greater abroad. It was also alleged that on the M25 the figure consideration by the Minister and his Department. could be as high as one accident in three. While that Andrew’s father strongly believes that devices such as might not be directly the result of foreign truck drivers Lanesafe, which would alert drivers when they are driving on the wrong side of the road, I believe that driving on the wrong side of the road, ought to be made there is little information held by the Department for compulsory for all foreign drivers. He is also totally Transport either to rebut or to substantiate such assertions. convinced that, if such a device had been fitted to the I recently met the Association of British Insurers, car that caused his son’s death, his son would be alive which produced a report, “European Drivers: Crossing today. Despite all the representations that he and the Borders Safely”, in November 2007. The report stated family have made, they feel frustrated that they cannot that drivers from elsewhere in Europe were involved get anyone in the Government to listen to their suggestions in more than 18,000 recorded accidents in the UK. In on the implementation, fitting, checking and policing of 2005, UK drivers caused more than 5,000 reported the devices that he has identified. I am therefore delighted collisions on continental European roads. The ABI to have had the opportunity to discuss them this evening. believes that the UK Government are underestimating Andrew’s family realise that his death is but one of the risks that cross-border drivers pose and that they numerous accidents involving young drivers, and they “should establish an accurate and consistent picture of crossborder are keen to ensure that the wider issue is given greater driving in the UK, in order to measure the risk that this represents prominence. The family have been energetic fundraisers and therefore take proportionate action”. for Brake, the national road safety charity. In addition, the ABI proposes a series of easy measures I hope that the Minister recognises that there is a that could be implemented in the interim. problem involving foreign drivers driving on the wrong In November 2011, in a written parliamentary question side of UK roads. Without accurate and up-to-date to the Department for Transport, I asked: statistics, the Government cannot say with certainty “how many fatal vehicle accidents have occurred where a visitor that the problem is not serious. I ask him to begin the to the UK driving on the wrong side of the road was process of ascertaining the facts, so that we can make a a contributory factor in the last 10 years.” judgment on what action is needed. Andrew Alexander The Minister kindly provided me with a written response, McLean’s family have made the case for action, and in which detailed in a table the Andrew’s memory as well as that of others killed and “reported fatal road accidents which had ‘inexperience of driving seriously injured on our roads by drivers driving on the on the left’ as a contributory factor, in Great Britain for the wrong side of the road, I trust that the Government will period 2005-10. However, it is not known how many drivers look seriously at the options available. I certainly hope involved in such accidents were visitors to Great Britain, or if that they take into account the fact that, both in Europe they were driving on the wrong side of the road at the time of the and in the UK, many young people now drive cars that accident.” are not fitted to drive on the “right” side of the road in The table for that five-year period stated that there had that country. been 55 such fatal accidents—a figure that I suspect I look forward to the Minister’s response. I hope that grossly underestimates the scale of the problem if full he will give some comfort to Andrew McLean’s family reporting were in place and non-fatal serious accident by assuring me that he will consider anything that will statistics were included. enhance safety on our roads, not least for our young people. However, the Minister also advised that while “contributory factors to road accidents has been collected since 1 10.23 pm January 2005” The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport such contributory factors (Mike Penning): It is an honour and a privilege to “are reported only for injury road accidents where a police officer respond on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government to the attended the scene and reported at least one contributory factor. debate introduced by the right hon. Member for Stirling These factors are largely subjective, reflecting the attending officer’s (Mrs McGuire) on such a serious subject. 141 Dangerous Driving9 JULY 2012 Dangerous Driving 142

I do not know whether the right hon. Lady knows they are fit and proper. I think the agreements work well this, but in a previous incarnation I was a firefighter. All between the Republic and the Province and the rest of too often, I was called to road traffic incidents—they the UK. We have very good relationships so prosecutions were called something slightly different in those days, do take place. In the case of an offence as serious as the but I am more politically correct now. It is heartbreaking one described, it would not matter where the driver for families to lose a loved one, and my thoughts and came from. They would be arrested on the spot if the prayers are with Andrew’s family. police thought that they were responsible for committing Let me say at the outset that I hope that we can an offence, and they would be prosecuted through the arrange a meeting with the family, because our time this courts, as is right and proper. evening is quite short and what we can discuss is limited. I accept that there is an issue with minor offences, I passionately believe that, in many cases, what families though not so much with commercial vehicles because bring to the road safety debate is a lot more than the of the system whereby we hold a deposit. If the vehicle “professionals” bring. It is important that families feel is overweight or the driver has worked more hours than involved. I think it is a shame that we have not debated he should, we take a deposit so that they do not pay the the matter before. I fully respect the right hon. Lady’s fine. There is much more of a problem with cars. We point about how limited the statistics are; I am all too have to be slightly careful that we do not damage our aware of that. When I answered her parliamentary tourism industry. We want people to come to this country, question, I tried desperately to open it up as much as drive responsibly and enjoy the wonderful countryside possible. She will recall how long that answer was. I was of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. I have seen disappointed that the statistics that I gave did not tell what the devolved Parliament in Scotland has put out. the whole story. For instance, the deaths per year figure The difficulty arises at port. We cannot in any way could have included a driver from another country in delay someone at port under the existing agreements. In Europe or anywhere in the world, inexperienced at the case of some of the heavy goods vehicles that come driving on the left, who was driving a right-hand drive into our ports, which we know have a track record of hire vehicle on UK roads. We are looking into whether not being as roadworthy as they should be, I would like we can make the statistics clearer. As the right hon. to detain them before they get on to UK roads. We are Lady suggested, the police have to form an opinion on working with the Commission on the problem, but at whether that was a contributing factor. In Andrew’s present we have to let the vehicles get on to the road case it obviously was. I feel for the family when a court before we can stop them, which seems a somewhat makes a decision that does not feel to them or to us like perverse way of dealing with the problem. natural justice. I know that we are not allowed to go There are things that we can do. The right hon. Lady into the court’s decision, although we have powers as referred to Lanesafe. Technology is moving on enormously. Members of Parliament to appeal against leniency in I recently drove a mid-range vehicle at the manufacturer’s some cases, and very good lawyers sometimes get results test track—I must not advertise the company, but it is from the courts. We need to make sure that the legislation well known in the UK. It had lane awareness, so as I on the statute book fits the circumstances. started to drift from the lane it pulled me back, although The title of the debate covers a broad spectrum, but it is possible to override that. It had distance awareness, as we were preparing for it I guessed that the right hon. in case I got too close to the vehicle in front. More Lady would raise a very serious issue. I thank her for frighteningly, for those of us with daughters who drive, the fact that her office contacted mine earlier today to it had independent parking, so I was able to take my give us an indication of what she would be speaking hands off the steering wheel and the car parked itself. I about this evening. am not being sexist about my daughters’ driving abilities, but both my girls have had great difficulty with lateral On dangerous driving offences, we are tightening up. parking—they will not mind my saying that. That is not In a serious case resulting in death, such as the one the one of the most expensive cars, a dream car or a right hon. Lady spoke about, there is in my opinion concept car; it is a mid-range vehicle available in showrooms only one charge that could have been brought, but that today. is entirely up to the police and the Crown Prosecution That sort of technology is becoming available and car Service in England or the Procurator Fiscal Service in manufacturers are producing products such as Lanesafe, Scotland. which the right hon. Lady mentioned. We would have to be very careful, because the Commission would come Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the down on me like a ton of bricks if I in any way right hon. Lady on bringing the matter to the House discriminated against another member of the European today. I spoke to the Minister earlier. With reference to economic area who has a free right of travel here. In the information and the statistics that the right hon. other words, I would have to make that available across Lady asked for, will that include the relationship that the board, so the compulsion part would be quite Northern Ireland has with the Republic of Ireland and difficult. the relevant statistics? When it come to pursuing those The right hon. Lady said that she had had a meeting who were involved in accidents and who flee the country, with the Association of British Insurers. I have many how will the Government deal with that? such meetings. I must be honest and admit that this was not at the top of its list when it raised the matter with Mike Penning: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his me. There are many other things it is concerned about, intervention. He indicated to me earlier that he would particularly the cost of insurance for young people and intervene. There are reciprocal agreements between the how we can make that transparent, but we must ensure Republic and not only Northern Ireland but the rest of that any ideas out there are listened to and that we work the United Kingdom. Interestingly, the Commission is on an evidence base and ensure that our roads, which looking at those reciprocal agreements to see whether are some of the safest in the world, continue to be so. 143 Dangerous Driving9 JULY 2012 Dangerous Driving 144

[Mike Penning] Friday night, and the amount of form-filling was mind- boggling—so we do not want them to fill in more forms; We are very conscious of the concerns that the right we want the forms to be as accurate as possible to give hon. Lady raised about HGVs and overseas drivers, not the information we require but not to be too opinionated. least because they come here with their belly tanks full The evidence is absolutely crucial. The right hon. Lady of diesel and compete with our hauliers. Even with the says that the figures are often skewed because the police existing cabotage rules it is difficult for our hauliers to officer may think, at the time of the incident, that compete, so we are going to introduce lorry road user something was a contributory factor, but later, after charging in this Parliament so that there is a better looking at the evidence, that it probably was not. balance in the legislation and our truckers can compete We are trying to take the issue very seriously. The with foreign hauliers. right hon. Lady was part of, and had a ministerial role However, the figures on actual incidents are very in, the previous Administration, and such work is difficult, interesting. Only about 5% of the whole haulage industry but that does not mean we should not do it. I am is affected by overseas hauliers, and that is at the top conscious that we need to do everything that we can to end of the range, with the larger 44-tonners. The right ensure that our roads continue to be some of the safest hon. Lady is absolutely right that they are disproportionately in the world, and that when we have visitors to this represented in accidents, but not necessarily the most country, whether for pleasure or for business, we give serious ones, which is the point I think she was making. them as much assistance as possible to ensure that they The word “incident” is there for everyone to see. Some know what their obligations are on our roads. are reported and some are not. We are trying to ensure We have reciprocal agreements with some countries, that foreign haulage vehicles are as rigidly maintained and I think we could develop that much more to ensure and as safe as our vehicles. that prosecutions take place. In the case of serious The Vehicle and Operator Services Agency does an offences, prosecutions do take place because the person excellent job of enforcement in this regard. Only recently is arrested there and then and often their bail conditions I was on a motorway with VOSA staff when a foreign- make it difficult for them to leave the country before registered 45-tonne truck went under a bridge that we they return to court. had a monitor on. The electronic monitor showed that The one thing that we must do, however, is to listen two of its axels were overweight, so the technology is to the families—both the families who want, for simply outstanding. We pulled the vehicle over and got understandable reasons, to walk away when a loved one it to follow us back on to the weigh bridge. We identified has been lost or seriously injured, and the families who that it was not only over its cabotage but over its hours, want to campaign and to make things better so that so we tend to pick up other things as well. What we such incidents do not happen to others. I have done that must ensure is that exactly the same rules apply to our with many families, by bringing them in to work with hauliers as apply to others. the Department, and we have actually funded some The right hon. Lady touched on a really important of their campaigns, rather than just those of larger point about gathering evidence. We gather unbelievable organisations. amounts of data from the police, VOSA, DVLA, ports, If we can do that, we can make our roads much safer, the Highways Agency and the courts, but do we make we can have fewer terrible incidents such as the one sure that we gather the data that we really need and are involving Andrew, and we can protect our tourism not just form-filling for the sake of it? Do we focus on industry and allow, as we have to under EU rules, free exactly what we require so that, for instance, we can get movement, which is what we would all expect. a better answer to the parliamentary question she asked Question put and agreed to. me? The answer is that we try. I think I am right in saying that the police fill in more than enough forms—I 10.36 pm was on patrol with the police in my constituency on House adjourned. 1WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JULY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 2WS

The first proposal concerns strengthening surveillance Written Ministerial of budgetary policies in euro area member states. It would require euro area countries to present their draft Statements budgets at the same time each year and give the Commission the right to assess and, if necessary, issue an opinion on them. The second proposal concerns strengthening Monday 9 July 2012 economic and fiscal surveillance of euro area countries facing or threatened with serious financial instability. It aims to ensure that the surveillance of member states TREASURY under a financial assistance programme, or facing a serious threat of financial instability, is robust, follows Decommissioning Relief Deeds: Tax Certainty in the clear procedures and is embedded in EU law. UK Continental Shelf The UK broadly welcomes these proposals, which will be an important part of governance reforms. The The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe proposals will help improve fiscal stability in the euro Smith): At Budget 2012, the Government announced a area, which is in the UK’s national interest. The euro package of measures on oil and gas taxation to support area must put in place governance arrangements to investment. This package included the introduction of create confidence for the future and ensure fiscal legislation in 2013 giving the Government statutory responsibility. authority to sign contracts with companies operating in the UK and UK continental shelf (UKCS), to provide (possible agenda item.) Revised capital requirements rules assurance on the tax relief they will receive when (CRD4) decommissioning assets. The presidency may update Ministers on the latest The Government recognise that, at present, a lack of trialogue negotiations, following the general approach certainty over how much tax relief companies expect to agreed by Ministers at 15 May ECOFIN. The UK be able to claim in respect of their future decommissioning continues to support the full implementation of Basel costs is making it difficult for oil and gas assets to III and for member states to have sufficient flexibility to change hands, limiting the funds available for new ventures increase minimum standards in order to protect financial and deterring incremental investment. stability in their jurisdiction. HM Treasury is today publishing the following document: “Decommissioning Relief Deeds: Increasing Proposal for Bank Recovery and Resolution Directive tax certainty for oil and gas investment in the UK continental shelf”. This item was deferred from the 22 June ECOFIN. This consultation document seeks views on the The Commission will present its new proposals for a Government’s proposals to provide certainty on directive, following which Ministers may then have an decommissioning relief through decommissioning relief initial exchange of views. The directive will require deeds. member states to ensure that their national supervisory and resolution authorities have a set of common tools It is proposed that these deeds will provide eligible and powers which will enable them to avert, and where companies with certainty that, if they do not achieve a necessary manage, the failure of a financial institution. specified level of relief under the tax code when they The proposal seeks to prevent the systemic damage decommission their assets, they will (subject to certain caused by the disorderly failure of such institutions, conditions) be entitled to claim a shortfall payment limiting public sector exposure and preventing wider from the Government. economic damage. This contractual approach is intended to facilitate further investment and production in the UKCS and is Presentation of the Cyprus Presidency Work Programme therefore expected to have a positive impact on the Exchequer. The new presidency will set out their work programme The initial consultation period will last for 12 weeks, for the next six months. Ministers will have an exchange closing on 1 October 2012. of views on Cyprus’ work programme. A copy of the consultation will be made available from Follow-up to the European Council on 28-29 June 2012 the HM Treasury website: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk. Ministers will discuss the follow-up to the European ECOFIN Council, which considered a paper by the four presidents (of the Council, Eurogroup, ECB and Commission), “Towards a Genuine Economic and Monetary Union” The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): and agreed a “Compact for Growth and Jobs”. The Economic and Financial Affairs Council will be held in Brussels on 10 July 2012. Ministers will discuss Contributions to the European Council Meeting on 28/29 June the following items: 2012—European Semester Economic governance—two pack The presidency will ask Ministers to adopt Council Ministers will hold an orientation debate on the “two recommendations on national reform programmes and pack” of economic governance proposals, to discuss the stability or convergence programmes. The recommendations European Parliament’s position. This will inform the were endorsed at June European Council. The UK first working-level trialogue meeting with the European supports the European semester process and the country Parliament on 11 July. specific recommendations. 3WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JULY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 4WS

EDUCATION within the remit of the Children’s Commissioner, but with safeguards to ensure that the current levels of Children’s Commissioner for England support provided to this vulnerable group of children were not diluted. The Minister of State, Department for Education Under the draft legislation, the Children’s Commissioner (Sarah Teather): Following John Dunford’s independent for England would retain responsibility for non-devolved review of the role of the Children’s Commissioner, I matters, but would be able to delegate his or her powers informed the House that the Government had accepted of investigation to the Children’s Commissioners in the in principle all of his recommendations and said that we devolved Administrations. The Children’s Commissioner would consult on the legislative changes needed to for England would also be required to consult the implement them. Having taken account of the responses Children’s Commissioners in the devolved Administrations to the consultation, I am today laying draft legislation before conducting an investigation on a non-devolved before the House for pre-legislative scrutiny. The matter within their jurisdictions or across the UK. Government aim to make the UK the most child-friendly Copies of the draft legislation will be placed in the country in Europe. Children are generally more vulnerable House Libraries. than adults and do not have the same opportunities to make their views known or to raise concerns about the ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS impact of new policies or legislation. It is therefore important that they have a strong advocate to represent Flooding their interests, particularly when they are in vulnerable situations. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and John Dunford’s independent review concluded that Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): Following my there was a continuing need for a Children’s Commissioner, written ministerial statement to the House on 3 July who could act as a champion for children and young 2012, Official Report, column 48WS concerning the people—ensuring that their voices were heard and that flooding events in the midlands and north-east of England new policies and legislation were designed in a way on 28 June, I would like to provide a further update on that took account of their rights. However, he said that the significant flooding events that have taken place the current legislative framework had prevented the over this weekend on 6 to 8 July in England following Commissioner from fulfilling that role effectively, and further periods of extremely high rainfall. that changes were needed to ensure that the Commissioner I would also like to acknowledge the tragic events would, in future, have greater impact on children and which have taken place in the Krasnodar region of young people’s lives. Russia over the weekend and to express our sympathies The draft legislation laid before the House today for the communities and individuals involved. would create a new role for the Children’s Commissioner, During Friday and Saturday there was heavy and focused on promoting and protecting the rights of persistent rainfall across England and Wales, which on children, in line with the articles of the UN Convention top of the already saturated ground has caused serious on the Rights of the Child, to which the Government flooding in some areas and disruption to many more. are a committed signatory. In order to carry out the role There were widespread local impacts including to property, effectively, the Children’s Commissioner would have transport networks, sporting and cultural events, and powers to: agricultural land. carry out investigations; I can confirm that on the latest count a total of 391 carry out assessments of the impact of new policies and properties were flooded across England from rivers and legislation on children’s rights; surface water flooding. One hundred and forty-seven undertake research; properties flooded in the south-west; two-thirds of which monitor the effectiveness of complaints and advocacy services for children and young people; were flooded due to rivers overflowing their banks and access places where children are cared for or accommodated the rest from surface water. Eighty properties were away from home, so that their concerns can be heard; flooded in the midlands and a further 86 in Yorkshire, request the information needed to carry out full and robust Lincolnshire and the north. investigations; Nationally it is estimated that about 3,000 properties require those to whom recommendations are made to set out have been protected from flooding over this weekend as how they intend to respond. a result of flood defences in place. The Met Office and The draft legislation would make the Children’s the Environment Agency have been providing flood Commissioner more independent from Government and and weather warnings and over 200 flood warnings more directly accountable to Parliament, in particular and alerts were sent to communities at risk of flooding through an annual report to Parliament that will allow across the country, including three warnings of severe for more effective scrutiny of the impact that the Children’s river flooding. Commissioner’s activities have had on the promotion Following the wettest June since records began across and protection of children’s rights. The draft legislation England and Wales, the rainfall in July falling in East also includes measures designed to make the Commissioner’s Devon was over 100 mm—three times the rain normally business planning processes more transparent, by making expected for the whole of July—and across the south it a requirement for the Commissioner to consult on his Pennines over 60 mm of rain fell which is 75% of the or her future priorities and to appoint an advisory rain expected for the whole month. These rainfall figures board. demonstrate how severe and unusual the conditions In line with John Dunford’s recommendations, the have been but despite this we are determined to carry on draft legislation would also result in the functions of the improving our resilience to deal with this type of weather children’s rights director in Ofsted being incorporated in the future. 5WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JULY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 6WS

On Sunday I visited the town of Ottery St Mary in issues related to all three pillars of the NPT—non-proliferation, the south-west and saw for myself the damage and the peaceful uses of nuclear energy and disarmament, including disruption to people’s lives that this flooding has caused. confidence-building, transparency, and verification experiences. I would like to thank the local authorities and other The P5 reaffirmed their commitment to the shared goal of agencies in the area for their efforts to protect lives and nuclear disarmament and emphasized the importance of working properties in Ottery and other affected communities together in implementing the 2010 NPT review conference action plan. The P5 reviewed significant developments in the context of and now to help them begin to clear up. the NPT since the 2011 Paris P5 conference. In particular, the P5 The Secretary of State for Communities and Local reviewed the outcome of the 2012 preparatory committee for the Government is activating the Bellwin scheme of emergency 2015 NPT review conference, continued their discussion of how financial assistance to help local authorities with their to report on their relevant activities, and shared views, across all immediate costs associated with protecting life and three pillars of the NPT, on objectives for the 2013 preparatory property in their areas. Exceptionally, the scheme will committee and the intersessional period. The 2012 PrepCom reimburse local authorities for 100% of their eligible outcome included issuance of a P5 statement comprehensively addressing issues in all three pillars (NPT/CONF.2015/PC.I/12). costs above threshold. This is in recognition of the particular circumstances around these floods and will The P5 continued their previous discussions on the issues of transparency, mutual confidence, and verification, and considered give the affected local authorities assurance that such proposals for a standard reporting form. The P5 recognise the costs will be reimbursed. Government officials will also importance of establishing a firm foundation for mutual confidence be discussing the recovery arrangements with local and further disarmament efforts, and the P5 will continue their authorities in the areas affected. discussions in multiple ways within the P5, with a view to reporting The Government recognise the importance which to the 2014 PrepCom, consistent with their commitments under flood insurance plays in these circumstances and are actions 5, 20, and 21 of the 2010 RevCon final document. working closely with the insurance industry to secure Participants received a briefing from the United States on US the future availability and affordability of flood insurance activities at the Nevada National Security Site. This was offered following the expiry of the statement of principles next with a view to demonstrate ideas for additional approaches to year. transparency. I am pleased to be able to report that the situation in Another unilateral measure was a tour of the US Nuclear Risk Reduction Center located at the US Department of State, where the south-west and other parts of England worst hit by the P5 representatives have observed how the United States the floods continues to slowly improve. There are no maintains a communications center to simultaneously implement longer any severe flood warnings in force. I would like notification regimes, including under the new strategic arms once again to take the opportunity to praise the excellent reduction treaty (New START), Hague Code of Conduct Against response from our front-line emergency services, local Ballistic Missile Proliferation (HCOC), and Organization for authorities and the diligent work by Met Office and Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) Vienna document. Environment Agency staff in the Flood Forecasting The P5 agreed on the work plan for a P5 working group led by Centre. With the forecast indicating continuing unsettled China, assigned to develop a glossary of definitions for key weather, we will all need to remain alert to the risk of nuclear terms that will increase P5 mutual understanding and further flooding in the coming weeks. facilitate further P5 discussions on nuclear matters. It is my intention to hold a technical briefing for The P5 again shared information on their respective bilateral flood affected constituencies in the early part of next and multilateral experiences in verification, including information week to enable MPs to be made aware of the full range on the P5 expert level meeting hosted by the UK in April, at which the UK shared the outcomes and lessons from the UK/Norway of tools at their disposal to help their constituents. Initiative disarmament verification research project. The P5 heard presentations on lessons learned from New START treaty FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE implementation, were given an overview of US/UK verification work, and agreed to consider attending a follow-up P5 briefing on this work to be hosted by the United States. P5 Conference of Nuclear Disarmament As a further follow-up to the 2010 NPT review conference, the P5 shared their views on how to discourage abuse of the NPT The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign withdrawal provision (Article X), and how to respond to notifications and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): I would like made consistent with the provisions of that article. The discussion to update the House on the outcomes of the Washington included modalities under which NPT states party could respond collectively and individually to a notification of withdrawal, conference of the five nuclear non-proliferation treaty including through arrangements regarding the disposition of (NPT) recognised nuclear weapon states (P5) on nuclear equipment and materials acquired or derived under safeguards disarmament, which took place 27-29 June. during NPT membership. The P5 agreed that states remain responsible This was the third such conference at senior official under international law for violations of the treaty committed level. It followed conferences in the UK (September prior to withdrawal. 2009) and Paris (June 2011), which brought together The P5 underlined the fundamental importance of an effective policy officials, military staff and nuclear scientists International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safeguards system from all five nuclear weapons states. in preventing nuclear proliferation and facilitating co-operation The conference was an important part of the international in the peaceful uses of nuclear energy. The P5 discussed concrete proposals for strengthening IAEA safeguards, including through dialogue on nuclear disarmament demonstrating a shared promoting the universal adoption of the additional protocol; and determination to make progress on the commitments set the reinforcement of the IAEA’s resources and capabilities for out in the 2010 NPT action plan. effective safeguards implementation, including verification of The P5 issued the following statement after the meeting: declarations by states. “The five nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT) nuclear-weapon The P5 reiterated their commitment to promote and ensure the states, or “P5”, met in Washington on June 27-29, 2012, in the swift entry into force of the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban wake of the 2009 London and 2011 Paris P5 conferences to Treaty (CTBT) and its universalisation. The P5 reviewed progress review progress towards fulfilling the commitments made at the in developing the CTBT’s verification regime in all its aspects and 2010 NPT review conference, and to continue discussions on efforts towards entry into force. Ways to enhance the momentum 7WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JULY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 8WS for completing the verification regime, including the on-site inspection The fund will be complemented by an introductory component, were explored. The P5 called upon all states to online training course on standing for elections, launched uphold their national moratoria on nuclear weapons test explosions today. It will be of interest to anyone without previous or any other nuclear explosion, and to refrain from acts that experience who wishes to stand for elections but is would defeat the object and purpose of the treaty pending its entry into force. The moratoria, though important, are not substitutes aimed particularly at disabled people. It includes for legally binding obligations under the CTBT. contributions from disabled politicians and others to The P5 discussed ways to advance a mutual goal of achieving a encourage disabled people to stand for elected office. legally binding, verifiable international ban on the production of As I have already announced to the Speaker in my fissile material for use in nuclear weapons. The P5 reiterated their letter of 16 March, I am also pleased to say that, as part support for the immediate start of negotiations on a treaty of the access to elected office’s commitment to provide encompassing such a ban in the conference on disarmament support to disabled people, I am funding up to three (CD), building on CD/1864, and exchanged perspectives on ways to break the current impasse in the CD, including by continuing additional placements specifically for disabled people their efforts with other relevant partners to promote such negotiations as part of the Speaker’s parliamentary placement scheme. within the CD. Further details of all these initiatives can be found on The P5 remain concerned about serious challenges to the the Home Office website at: http://homeoffice.gov.uk/ non-proliferation regime and in this connection, recalled their equalities/equality-public-political/. joint statement of May 3 at the preparatory committee of the NPT. Student Visas An exchange of views on how to support a successful conference in 2012 on a middle east zone free of weapons of mass destruction was continued. The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): My The P5 agreed to continue to meet at all appropriate levels on right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is today laying nuclear issues to further promote dialogue and mutual confidence. before the House a statement of changes in the immigration The P5 will follow on their discussions and hold a fourth P5 rules. The changes support the introduction of a new conference in the context of the next NPT preparatory committee”. targeted interview programme by the UK Border Agency, to ensure students seeking to abuse the immigration system are identified and refused a visa for the UK. The HOME DEPARTMENT UK Border Agency plans to interview between 10,000 and 14,000 student visa applicants over the coming Access to Elected Office for Disabled People year. The first change makes provision for an entry clearance officer to be satisfied that an applicant is a genuine The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone): The student before granting entry clearance under tier 4 of Government are today launching a £2.6 million fund to the points-based system. The second change makes support disabled people who wish to stand for elected provision for an entry clearance officer to refuse to issue office. This proposal forms part of the Government’s entry clearance where the applicant fails to attend an strategy to provide support for disabled people—the interview without providing a reasonable explanation. access to elected office strategy. Following public Both changes will be effective from 30 July 2012. consultation, the strategy has been developed by the Home Office, working with the Cabinet Office and the From December 2011 to the end of February 2012 Department for Work and Pensions. the UK Border Agency ran an interviewing pilot. The pilot assessed the effectiveness of interviewing more Disabled people are under-represented in public life, student visa applicants. It also considered the requirement as the Speaker’s conference report and the parliamentary for and potential impact of a new power to refuse entry debate on 12 January recognised. Following public clearance on grounds of genuineness. Over 2,300 visa consultation, the Government last year published proposals applicants from 47 countries were interviewed. Seventeen to provide extra support for disabled people who wish per cent of those interviewed were refused a visa under to stand for elected office. existing powers. Entry clearance officers indicated they The fund we are launching today will support disabled could have refused up to 32% of the remainder on people with some of the additional costs that a disabled grounds of genuineness. The full evaluation report of person may face in standing for elections, compared to the pilot is being published today, and a copy has been a non-disabled person. placed in the Library of the House. This will not, however, replace existing obligations Since 2011 the Government have overhauled the student for parties, which is why I have published guidance for visa system to tackle abuse while continuing to attract political parties on their legal responsibilities under the and retain the brightest and best students who will help Equality Act 2010, particularly on the reasonable drive growth in the economy. It has introduced a range adjustments they should make for disabled people. of measures to tighten controls on institutions sponsoring The fund will be open until March 2014 and will be international students, remove the entitlements that available to support disabled people seeking elected provided false incentives to those motivated by work positions in the following polls, including byelections: not study, and ensure only those with the most to offer Police and Crime Commissioners; English local and remain in the UK at the end of their course. Over English mayoral; Greater London Authority; and UK 450 colleges have now lost their right to bring international Parliament. The impact of the fund and the strategy students to the UK, and the number of student visas overall will be evaluated to inform any decision about issued in the year to March 2012 fell by 21%. any further support beyond the current spending period. While these changes have significantly strengthened We will also continue to work with colleagues in the the student visa regime, the pilot study identified some devolved Administrations to share our learning from residual abuse. The findings indicate that targeted overseas this strategy. interviews, supported by new powers of refusal, are useful 9WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JULY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 10WS additional tools to support entry clearance officers to The coalition Government are taking forward important identify and tackle it. These risk-based controls will be reforms to the welfare system. One of these reforms will used alongside the wide range of other checks already involve changes to disability living allowance and will operated by the UK Border Agency. affect eligibility for a disabled person’s parking permit These measures do not alter the duty on tier 4 sponsors or blue badge. About a third of all badges are currently to satisfy themselves that an applicant is able and intends issued to people who receive the higher rate of the to follow the course of study. They are designed to mobility component of disability living allowance. My protect reputable providers that have made offers to Department is therefore consulting on the options we students in good faith, and would otherwise risk UK have for dealing with the impact of the changes. The Border Agency compliance action. Providers often consultation covers arrangements for England only. undertake recruitment activity remotely, through agents. I am committed to ensuring that the blue badge Interviewing will provide an additional layer of scrutiny, scheme continues to be focused on those people who where needed, to help safeguard institutions. Interviews will benefit most from the parking concessions that it also will provide applicants with every opportunity to offers, and that it is sustainable in the future. The demonstrate how they meet the genuine student rule. Government have identified three main options for Students from low-risk countries who already benefit responding to the implementation of personal independence from a streamlined visa application process will be payments. The three main options are: exempt from the genuineness test. Further details on the application of these provisions Option 1—no legislative link between eligibility for a blue badge and eligibility to personal independence payment; will be set out in UK Border Agency guidance. Option 2—establishing a legislative link between blue badge eligibility and the enhanced mobility component of personal independence payment; JUSTICE Option 3—establishing a legislative link between blue badge eligibility and those who score eight points or more within Justice and Security Bill the “Moving Around” activity within personal independence payment. This assesses a person’s physical ability to get around. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke): Today I have laid before Parliament The Government’s preferred option is option 3 as it the Government’s response to the House of Lords would mean that eligibility for a blue badge would be Select Committee on the constitution’s report on the most similar to the current scheme and the potential Justice and Security Bill, which was published on 15 June. impacts of this option are minimal. We will, however, We have sought to respond promptly in order to help consider this in light of views and comments sent in as inform the upcoming debates on the Bill. part of the consultation. The Government are also asking for other suggestions for other practical and sustainable solutions.

TRANSPORT The consultation concludes on 2 October 2012. Personal independence payments will be introduced for new claimants aged between 16 and 64 from April 2013 onwards. It Personal Independence Payment and Blue Badge will begin to replace disability living allowance for Eligibility existing recipients aged between 16 and 64 from October 2013 onwards. Any consequential changes to the blue badge scheme will also be phased in and will affect The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport existing badge holders when an existing badge expires (Norman Baker): I am today publishing a consultation and they need to apply for a new one. document on personal independence payment and eligibility for a blue badge. The consultation period closes on A copy of the consultation document has been placed Tuesday 2 October 2012. in the Library of the House.

1W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 2W

(2) what estimate he has made of the cost of installing Written Answers to filters to allow reception of digital terrestrial television (DTT) following the adoption of 4G mobile technology Questions in (a) all DTT households, (b) DTT households with amplifiers fitted and (b) multiple dwelling units; [115387] Monday 9 July 2012 (3) if he will make it his policy to finance the cost of filters where necessary for second television sets to continue to receive digital terrestrial television following the adoption of 4G mobile technology. [115388] WALES Mr Vaizey [holding answer 5 July 2012]: As set out in Cardiff Airport the Government’s announcement of 21 February, every home that needs one will be provided with a filter free of Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for charge. Wales what discussions she has had with Ministers in Owners of properties with communal distribution the Welsh Assembly Government on plans for the future systems will be provided with the filter appropriate to of Cardiff Airport; and if she will make a statement. such equipment, free of charge. Ofcom estimate that [115424] approximately 20,000 multi dwelling buildings could be affected. Ofcom estimate that the typical cost for a Mrs Gillan: Cardiff airport has the potential to play fitting a filter for a communal aerial installation would an important part in improving the business environment be around £220, although it could be significantly lower, in Wales and contributing to the Welsh and UK economy. and that there are an average of 16 dwellings served by I recently met with Cardiff airport to discuss their each system. For multi-dwelling units similar to a single future plans. household property the costs would be similar to those I have had discussions with the First Minister who for single occupancy buildings. It is normally the has now established a task force to look at the future of responsibility of each landlord to maintain any TV the airport and the Welsh Government Minister for signal distribution system in the property, and this Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science has indicated should extend to the fitting of any filter that is required. that she wants to see Cardiff airport at the heart of the In general, we are not proposing to fund the fitting-of Aerospace Enterprise Zone around St Athan. filters in these cases. The one in four homes with residents deemed to be “vulnerable”—that is they meet the eligibility criteria that have been used for the Switchover Help Scheme—will CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT be entitled to. installation of the filter, if needed, free of charge, The cost of fitting these filters should be much Broadband: less than for an antenna installation. Charges may vary from installer to installer but typically could be as low Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for as £50 + VAT. All these costs will be met from the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent progress £180 million funding to be provided by the mobile has been made on the delivery of superfast broadband network operators. to North Kent. [115334] Support specifically for second and subsequent sets will not be provided. This is consistent with the approach Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, we took in TV switchover where help was provided (to Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for those eligible) for one set only. All homes living in the South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), has approved all local geographical area where they are predicted to experience broadband plans covering the South East of England, interference to TV reception will be sent one filter with including the plan covering North Kent. The Broadband clear instructions for installation. This includes the 60% Delivery Framework has been signed by BT and Fujitsu of homes whose primary viewing is on satellite or cable and local projects teams are working with BDUK to platforms who will be able to use the filter on a secondary prepare for procurement. set connected to an aerial. North Kent has been allocated £9.87 million for the The funding provision of £180 million is based on delivery of superfast broadband. Ofcom estimates of the size of the expected problem The first projects to use the framework have commenced and includes a significant margin. A breakdown of how their procurements and Kent will be amongst the next Ofcom arrived at this figure is contained within their group of projects to commence procurement in September. recent consultation on coexistence between new services in the 800 MHz band and digital terrestrial television. Mobile Phones Public Expenditure Mr Whittingdale: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) if he will make John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, it his policy to finance the installation costs for filters to Olympics, Media and Sport with reference to the speech allow reception of digital terrestrial television following by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury of 23 April 2012 the adoption of 4G mobile technology in (a) households at the Institute for Fiscal Studies, (1) what progress his with amplifiers fitted and (b) multiple dwelling units; Department has made on identifying a proportion of [115386] its resource budget than can be re-prioritised; what steps 3W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 4W he has taken to identify such funds; and which parts of Parliamentary Armed Forces Scheme his Department’s resource budget he has identified as suitable for re-prioritisation; [115751] Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what discussions he has had with his Department’s Defence pursuant to the answers of 20 June 2012, agencies and the non-departmental bodies for which he Official Report, column 877W and 2 July 2012, on is responsible on the contribution they will make to Parliamentary Armed Forces Scheme, what (a) letters, identifying resource budget for possible re-prioritisation; (b) e-mails and (c) other correspondence the Minister [115752] of State for the Armed Forces has had with Col (Rtd) (3) when he will make public the areas of his Terry Scriven on the Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme; Department’s resource budget he has identified for and if he will place copies of any such correspondence possible re-prioritisation; and when he plans to report in the Library. [115451] to the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee on the outcome of this exercise. [115753] Mr Robathan [holding answer 5 July 2012]: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on 2 July 2012, Official John Penrose: The Department is working with the Report, column 471W. Treasury to agree contingency plans, as set out in the Government’s framework for strengthening and improving The Ministry of Defence (MOD) holds no records of spending control any letters, e-mails or other correspondence that MOD Ministers have had with Col (Rtd) Terry Scriven on the http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ improving_spending_control.pdf subject of the Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme. As is normal for Government spending, the details of any contingency plans will only be published if it is Public Expenditure decided to put them into practice, at which stage they will be announced in Parliament by the Chancellor or Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for other Ministers in the usual way. Defence what adjustments were made by the Treasury to (a) his Department’s financial envelope and (b) the UK Fashion and Textile Association allocation to major budget headings in his Department’s budget as a result of the three month study into planning Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, round 11. [115442] Olympics, Media and Sport when he last met representatives of the UK Fashion and Textile Association. [116047] Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 5 July 2012]: The three-month exercise made no changes to the Ministry Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, of Defence’s Budget as set out in the 2010 spending Media and Sport has not met the UK Fashion and review. Textiles Association (UKFT). However, the Secretary of State, alongside the Secretary of State for Business, However, the Treasury did agree that, for planning Innovation and Skills, chairs the Creative Industries purposes, the MOD could assume a 1% above real Council whose members include the British Fashion terms annual increase in spending on equipment and Council (BFC), and a member of the UKFT. equipment support for the period from 2015 to 2020. The Government is keen to support the fashion industry This assumption was reflected in the allocation of and encourages initiatives, such as NewGen, which funds to major budget headings during the annual helps to promote the younger generation of designers budget setting process, the outcome of which I announced coming out of the colleges. The BFC’s Value of Fashion on 14 May 2012. report highlights the significant contribution the fashion industry makes to the UK economy and confirms British Submarines fashion’s status as one of our most important creative industries. The Department looks forward to continuing to work with UKFT, the BFC and others to further Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for support this valuable industry. Defence whether his Department has sought a commercial partner to advise on the submarine enterprise performance programme. [114424] DEFENCE Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) is not Aircraft Carriers seeking a commercial partner to advise on the Submarine Enterprise Performance Programme (SEPP). The MOD Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for is, however, seeking a commercial partner to augment Defence which parts of the Queen Elizabeth Aircraft the current resources in programme and project support Carrier project have yet to be fully costed. [111567] functions within the submarine operating centre in the Peter Luff: The final target cost for the Queen Elizabeth Defence Equipment and Support organisation. This is Class aircraft carriers that was developed in 2010 was to improve skills and processes, to reduce overall risk to based on STOVL-configured ships, and encompassed the submarine programme and to gain better value for all known elements of the programme at that time, money. although following the 10 May 2012 decision to end The enabling arrangement will be available for use by Carrier Variant conversion investigations and revert to programmes within the submarine operating centre; a STOVL-based carrier programme, we are now formally this may include the SEPP, should the need arise in the re-baselining the programme. future. 5W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 6W

Trident (2) how many child care places are financed by child care tax credits; [115273] Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many (a) direct and (b) indirect civilian Mr Byrne: To ask Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer jobs in (i) Scotland and (ii) the rest of the UK rely what estimate he has made of the likely total spend on upon the Trident programme. [113406] childcare tax credits in each year up to 2015. [115274] Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 26 June 2012]: Mr Gauke: The most recent information on the average It is not Government policy to compile statistics related help with child care costs for tax credit recipients is to defence spend on equipment or employment in UK available in Table 4.4 of the HMRC snapshot publication regions. ‘Child and Working Tax Credit Statistics April 2012’: However, I am able to provide a broad indication of http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc- the extent of employment throughout the UK, which is quarterly-stats.htm reliant on the Trident programme by outlining the key At the beginning of April 2012, the average amount locations concerned. received for child care by families benefiting from the I can confirm that some 6,300 defence jobs are based child care element was £58.25 per week. at Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde. This base comprises The total number of child care places financed by the the naval base at Faslane and the Royal Naval Armaments child care element of working tax credit is not available. Depot (RNAD) at Coulport. The naval base is the However, Table 4.4 of ‘Child and Working Tax Credit home to a range of Royal Navy ships and submarines Statistics April 2012’ reports the total number of families including the Vanguard class submarines which carry benefiting from the child care element. As of the beginning the UK’s strategic nuclear deterrent. RNAD Coulport of April 2012, 454,900 families were benefiting from the is responsible for the storage, processing, maintenance child care element. and issue of the Trident weapon system. As well as a Table 1, as follows, shows forecast spend on the child high proportion of Ministry of Defence civilian and care element of tax credits in each financial year for the Royal Navy personnel, the jobs at the naval base include rest of this Parliament. contractors from Babcock, Lockheed Martin UK and Rolls-Royce. Table 1: Forecasted child care expenditure Also in Scotland, the work undertaken by Rolls-Royce £ million in respect of nuclear reactors at the Vulcan Naval Reactor 2012-13 1,490 Test Establishment, Dounreay, also supports the Trident 2013-14 1,560 programme and other nuclear-powered submarines. 2014-15 1,650 For the rest of the UK, four key suppliers directly support the delivery of the Trident programme. The Atomic Weapons Establishment (AWE) managed and Finance Act 2008 operated by AWE Management Limited is based in Aldermaston and Burghfield; BAE Systems Maritime- Mike Freer: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Submarines at Barrow-in-Furness; Babcock at Devonport; how much revenue (a) is due and (b) has been collected and Rolls-Royce at Raynesway, Derby. under the provisions of section 58 of the Finance Act The ability of these key areas, both in Scotland and 2008. [115639] the rest of the UK, to deliver their programmes depends heavily on an extensive network of sub-contractors who Mr Gauke: UK residents are taxable on their worldwide are working indirectly in support of the Trident programme. income wherever it arises—including situations where it arises by way of foreign partnerships. Section 58 of Finance Act 2008 was enacted to help put that beyond TREASURY doubt. As section 58 retrospectively clarified existing legislation, its introduction had no affect on any taxpayers’ Business: Greenhouse Gas Emissions tax position. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with the Secretary Gift Aid of State for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on mandatory greenhouse gas reporting for companies. Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Chancellor of the [115926] Exchequer (1) what steps the Government is taking to make it easier for small charities to collect gift aid from Mr Gauke: Treasury Ministers, including the Chancellor text donations; [115971] of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for (2) what steps the Government is taking to ensure Tatton (Mr Osborne), regularly meet with Ministers that the collection of gift aid on charitable donations from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural made (a) as text donations via mobile telephones and Affairs, covering a range of topics. (b) using other new technologies is easier. [115972] Child Care Tax Credit Mr Gauke: The Government is keen to make Gift Aid Mr Byrne: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer as easy and as accessible as possible to donors and (1) what the average family claim for child care tax charities. Gift Aid is already available on text donations credits was in the latest period for which figures are and on other forms of digital giving such as via ATMs, available; [115272] subject to the right infrastructure being in place. 7W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 8W

HM Revenue and Customs has been discussing with Mr Hoban: Treasury Ministers and officials have charity representatives how the sector might set up a meetings and discussions with a wide variety of authorities Gift Aid database for participating donors and charities as part of the process of policy development and delivery. to use to streamline the making of a Gift Aid declaration As was the case with previous administrations, it is not to each charity they support. the Government’s practice to provide details of all such meetings and discussions. Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps the Government is taking to help National Infrastructure Plan small charities to quickly and easily claim gift aid which they are due other than through the provisions Gordon Banks: To ask the Chancellor of the contained in the Small Charitable Donations Bill. Exchequer (1) in which financial years he plans that [116043] support from UK pension funds will be allocated to the National Infrastructure Plan; [115827] Mr Gauke: The Government is keen to make it as (2) what the value is of the support committed to the easy as possible for all charities to claim Gift Aid. National Infrastructure Plan from UK pension funds; In 2011 HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) introduced [115828] a new Gift Aid repayment claim form which is completed (3) what progress he has made in securing pension on a computer and contains a number of automated funds agreement to finance the Government’s National checks, to help prevent common errors that delay Infrastructure Plan. [115829] repayments. That has lead to HMRC processing over 95% of Gift Aid claims within 15 working days, an Danny Alexander: The National Association of Pension improvement of nearly 10% over the last year. Funds (NAPF) and the Pension Protection Fund (PPF) The new form was the first step to introducing a new are currently in the process of raising development and online system in 2013 that will enable charities to claim investment capital, with the aim of launching a pension Gift Aid repayments online. The online system will investment platform in early 2013 to invest in UK enable HMRC to make repayments more quickly and infrastructure projects. efficiently. NAPF and the PPF have publicly stated that they HM Revenue and Customs has also been discussing expect the platform initially to raise £2 billion of pension with charity representatives how the sector might set up fund investment to deploy in appropriate UK infrastructure. a Gift Aid database for participating donors and charities Parliamentary Private Secretaries: Visits Abroad to use, to eliminate the need for donors to make a Gift Aid declaration to each charity they support. Chris Bryant: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Income Tax on which occasions his parliamentary private secretary has travelled overseas with him or on his behalf since Matthew Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the May 2010. [115344] Exchequer by how much the income tax payments have changed for someone earning £26,000 from 2010-11 to Mr Gauke: The parliamentary private secretary of 2012-13; and how much income tax someone earning the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend £26,000 a year will pay in 2012-13 and 2013-14 the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), has not travelled compared to 2009-10. [115394] overseas with him or on his behalf since May 2010. Social Impact Bonds Mr Gauke: Income tax due for an individual earning £26,000 for tax year 2009-10 to 2013-14 is shown in the following table. The table assumes that the individual is Nadine Dorries: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer aged under 65 or born after 5 April 1948 for 2013-14, whether his Department plans to have discussions with has no other income assessable for tax and that, other the Department for Communities and Local Government than the personal allowance, no other allowances, on the possibility of public funding of social impact deductions or reliefs are due. bonds. [115816]

Total income tax (£) Danny Alexander: £5 million has been set aside for a new social impact bond to help London’s persistent 2009-10 3,905 rough sleepers off the streets and into secure homes. 2010-11 3,905 This was announced on 7 March and approved by HM 2011-12 3,705 Treasury and the Department for Communities and 2012-13 3,579 Local Government prior to this announcement. 2013-14 3,359 Tax Avoidance LIBOR Matthew Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much was raised for the public purse by Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer all measures taken to reduce tax avoidance measures (1) whether the British Banking Association’s review of from May 2010 to June 2012. [115393] LIBOR was discussed by his Department’s officials at their meeting of 5 March 2012; [115920] Mr Gauke: Anti-avoidance measures announced by (2) who attended the meeting where Treasury the Government in its 2010, 2011 and 2012 Budgets officials discussed LIBOR on 5 March 2012. [115928] were forecast to yield over £6 billion. 9W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 10W

In addition to raising funds for the public purse many Mr Gauke [holding answer 5 July 2012]: The intention anti-avoidance measures serve to protect revenue by of the bidding conditions set out by the International blocking or deterring avoidance which would otherwise Olympic Committee is that taxation should not be a reduce payments into the public purse. consideration in any bid to host an Olympic and Paralympic games. The UK has not gone beyond the commitments Taxation required to meet these conditions.

Mr Meacher: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Welfare Tax Credits what amendments HM Revenue and Customs have made of the level of (a) tax avoidance, (b) tax evasion Mr Byrne: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and (c) uncollected tax liabilities in each of the last 10 how many (a) two, (b) three, (c) four, (d) five and (e) years. [115391] six year olds are members of families in receipt of tax credits. [115275] Mr Gauke: The breakdown of the tax gap by behaviour has not been produced for the last 10 years. Mr Gauke: The information requested is given in the The most recent estimate of the net tax gap is published following table. in Measuring Tax Gaps 2011: Estimated number of children in families in receipt of tax credits, as of http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/mtg-2011.pdf 1 April 2012 Age Number (Thousand) This estimated that the net tax lost by all taxpayers across all taxes in 2009-10 due to (a) avoidance was Two years old 546.4 around £5 billion, (b) evasion was around £4 billion, Three years old 541.7 and (c) non-payment was £4 billion. Four years old 536.8 Five years old 516.8 Taxation: Multinational Companies Six years old 504.8 Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether proposed changes to controlled foreign companies rules in the Finance Bill will mean PRIME MINISTER developing countries may lose more revenue to tax havens; [115472] Russia (2) what steps his Department intends to take in response to recommendations of the IMF, OECD, UN Chris Bryant: To ask the Prime Minister (1) pursuant and World Bank that an impact assessment be carried to the answer from the Secretary of State for Justice of out on how developing countries will be affected by the 11 June 2012, Official Report, columns 360-1W, on Controlled Foreign Companies rules in the Finance Russia, (1) whether he authorised the travel of the hon. Bill. [115473] Member for Wyre and Preston North to Russia; and on what date any such authorisation was given; [115355] Mr Gauke: The Government has not undertaken an (2) what was exceptional about the hon. Member for assessment of the effect on developing countries of the Wyre and Preston North’s visit to Russia that merited proposed changes to the CFC rules as these rules are taxpayer funding; [115356] designed to protect the UK Exchequer by preventing (3) what the cost of the hon. Member for Wyre and artificial diversion of UK profits. Preston North’s visit to Russia was; [115357] The IMF, OECD, UN and World Bank have not (4) whether he has authorised any other specifically recommended an impact assessment of the parliamentary private secretaries to travel overseas on changes to the CFC rules. Such an assessment would an official visit since May 2010. [115358] need to focus primarily on the nature of tax regimes in developing countries and the interactions of multinational The Prime Minister: The hon. Member for Wyre and companies with those tax systems, making it an assessment Preston North (Mr Wallace) paid his own travel expenses. not of our tax rules, but of the tax rules of those other This case and any others are authorised in line with countries. The Government does not think that such an paragraph 3.11 of the Ministerial Code. assessment would be feasible. The strengthening of tax administration in developing countries is a key issue in tax and development and the Government is committed to supporting developing ATTORNEY-GENERAL countries access sustainable sources of revenue. Human Trafficking Taxation: Olympic Games 2012 Mr Bone: To ask the Attorney-General what steps he Caroline Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken with regard to the Crown Prosecution Service with reference to the answer of 5 December 2011, report on the review of human trafficking legislation. Official Report, column 72W, on taxation: Olympic [115963] games 2012, if he will give details of the certain tax arrangements that the International Olympic Committee The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service required for all bids for the 2012 games; whether the (CPS) is not reviewing the law on human trafficking. UK bid went beyond the certain tax arrangements However, the CPS has contributed to the Government’s required; and if he will make a statement. [115453] report on the review of human trafficking legislation 11W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 12W which was published on 22 June 2012. This review of the Law Officers’ can consider referring the case for an legislation was a commitment set out in the Government’s increase in sentence where it appears that the sentence Human Trafficking Strategy published in July 2011. was unduly lenient. The report on the review of human trafficking legislation is now available on the Home Office website. Lost Working Days The review identified three areas where legislation in England and Wales could be strengthened and new Mr Ruffley: To ask the Attorney-General what the legislation is already being introduced in two of these average number of working days lost per person was in areas. To comply with the EU Directive on Trafficking (a) the Law Officers’ Departments and (b) each in Human Beings, amendments to current human agency of the Law Officers’ Departments in each of the trafficking offences are included in the Protection of last three years. [115291] Freedoms Act 2012. The third area identified relates to the unduly lenient sentence mechanism. Steps are being The Solicitor-General: The information requested is taken to ensure that in all human trafficking offences contained in the following table:

Working days lost Department April 2009-March 2010 April 2010-March 2011 April 2011-March 2012

CPS 9.0 8.9 8.5 AGO 17.8 2.7 3.1 HMCPSI 17.8 14.7 4.7 TSol 6.6 5.8 6.6 SFO 9.7 11.2 8.7 1 Prior to 1 April 2010 Tsol calculated sickness absence as a combined figure for the combination of TSol, AGO and HMCPSI—this reflected the requirements of the annual accounts at that time (the AGO/HMCPSI combined figure for 2009-10 is an estimate and has been calculated from this data).

Offences Against Children estimate he has made of the number of such cases; and if he will make a statement. [115830] Paul Goggins: To ask the Attorney-General how The Solicitor-General: The Attorney-General, my right many cases involving the alleged sexual abuse of a child hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield under the age of 16 have been dismissed by the Crown (Mr Grieve), and I have regular discussions with the courts in England as a result of no evidence being Director of Public Prosecutions on a wide range of offered in each year since 1990. [115918] criminal matters, including cases where there may have been a miscarriage of justice due to the involvement of undercover police officers. Details regarding the Drax The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service case were announced in a press release on Tuesday, (CPS) does not maintain a central record of the number 3 July 2012, which can be found at: of cases involving alleged sexual abuse of a child under the age of 16, which were dismissed by the Crown http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/press_releases/dpp_invites_ defence_ to_appeal_convictions_of_drax_power_station_protestors/ courts in England as a result of no evidence being offered. Such data could not be obtained locally or Prosecutions: Northamptonshire nationally without incurring a disproportionate cost. Mr Hollobone: To ask the Attorney-General how many successful prosecutions have been secured by the Police: Surveillance Crown Prosecution Service in Northamptonshire in each of the last three years; and what proportion such successful prosecutions represent of the total Caroline Lucas: To ask the Attorney-General what prosecutions started in each such year. [115961] recent discussions he has had with the Director of Public Prosecutions on the number of cases where The Solicitor-General: The information regarding there may have been a miscarriage of justice due to the successful prosecutions brought by the Crown Prosecution involvement of undercover police officers; what Service in Northamptonshire is as follows:

Northamptonshire—Prosecutions 2009-12 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

Convictions 8,895 86.9 8.847 85.6 7,281 85.3 Unsuccessful 1,345 13.1 1,486 14.4 1,255 14.7 Total 10,240 10,333 8,536

England and Wales—Prosecutions 2009-12 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

Convictions 846,221 86.1 820,597 85.7 769,252 86.0 Unsuccessful 136,511 13.9 137,284 14.3 125,539 14.0 13W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 14W

England and Wales—Prosecutions 2009-12 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

Total 982,732 957,881 894,791

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE increase in criminal activity in the north Sinai area, Foreign and Commonwealth Office travel advice currently Belarus advises against all but essential travel to Sinai north of the Suez-Taba road. : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations Heather Wheeler: To ask the Secretary of State for he has made to the Belarussian authorities on the arrest Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he of journalist Andrzey Poczobut. [116094] has received of arms smuggling in the Sinai Peninsula. [115700] Mr Lidington: The arrest of Andrzey Poczobut for alleged “libel against the president”is yet another example Alistair Burt: We are aware of reports of arms smuggling of the crackdown on the independent media in Belarus. in and through the Sinai Peninsula and are monitoring The Government has made no direct representations to the situation carefully. We regularly raise our concerns the Belarusian authorities about his arrest, but officials about the security situation in the Sinai with the Egyptian will do so at the next opportunity. The EU raised his authorities. case in the Organisation for Security and Cooperation European Union: Legislative Competence in Europe (OSCE) Permanent Council on 5 July. The UK continues to maintain the pressure on Belarus Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for to release and rehabilitate all political prisoners. We Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his timetable strongly supported the 5 July resolution at the UN is for his Department’s work to review the EU’s Human Rights Council, which established a Special existing competences. [115875] Rapporteur on Belarus. The Rapporteur will be a valuable source of independent reporting on events in the country, Mr Lidington: Extensive preparatory work is progressing and will help keep the spotlight on the situation there. and an announcement will be made to Parliament at the appropriate time. Colombia Israel Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will raise with the Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Colombian Government threats that have been made Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations against the life of Carlos Lozano from Colombians for he has made to the Israeli Government on its water Peace. [115162] supply policies in the Jordan valley. [115593] Alistair Burt: The British Government has had detailed Mr Jeremy Browne: Any threat against Dr Lozano’s discussions with both the Israeli and Palestinian authorities life is unacceptable. Our embassy in Bogota met with on the issue of water supply policies in the Jordan Dr Lozano recently, and continues to monitor his case valley, including on the significant difference between closely. During Dr Lozano’s recent trip to the UK, he the water allocated for use by Palestinians and Israeli met with senior Foreign and Commonwealth Office settlers. In addition to lobbying at political level, the officials to discuss the situation in Colombia. The UK is funding a project working with Palestinians and Colombian Government has assured us that providing Israelis to help improve co-operation on water issues to protection for human rights defenders is an absolute the benefit of both parties. priority for them. Officials at our embassy in Bogota will raise the case of Dr Lozano with the Colombian Water is one of the issues expected to be addressed in Government. final status negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. The UK continues to urge both parties to enter into The British Government continues to raise the protection direct talks to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. of human rights defenders regularly with the Colombian Government. I discussed human rights with President Middle East Santos, Foreign Minister Holguín and Vice President Garzón during my visit to Colombia in March 2012. Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports Egypt he has received on the recent increase of rocket fire into Israel from Gaza. [115430] Heather Wheeler: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment Alistair Burt: We understand between 17 to 23 June, he has made of the security situation in the Sinai over 150 rockets were fired from Gaza into southern Peninsula. [115698] Israel, with 10 Israeli civilians being injured. Israel responded with several air strikes killing 10 Palestinians. Alistair Burt: The British Government remains concerned This was the worst escalation of violence since the about the security situation in the Sinai and we regularly beginning of March this year, when 134 rockets were raise this with the Egyptian authorities. Due to a significant fired from Gaza. 15W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 16W

We condemn indiscriminate rocket fire from Gaza Syria into southern Israel and have urged all sides to exercise restraint and prevent civilian casualties and loss of life. Richard Drax: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he is Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for making any preparations for any part of the armed Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what support he is forces to be deployed to Syria. [113385] providing for the renewal of direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. [115605] Mr Philip Hammond: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Ministry of Defence. Alistair Burt: The UK continues to make regular high The Ministry of Defence has submitted military level representations to the Government of Israel and nominations to fill a key appointment in the United to the Palestinians on the urgency of making progress Nations Supervision Mission in Syria (UNSMIS). As at towards a two-state solution. The Secretary of State for 25 June, the Syrian authorities have yet to grant visas Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. for either of the nominated individuals. Without visa Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), authorisation UK nominees are unable to deploy. made this clear in his discussions with the Israeli Foreign Minister on 22 May and with Palestinian President Visits Abroad Abbas on 6 July. The UK also provides practical and technical support, including to the office of the Quartet Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Representative, to reinforce the prospects for peace. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which countries he is planning to visit in the next 12 months. [115710] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has Mr Lidington: For security reasons we do not make made of the Palestinian Authority’s adherence to their public the advance travel plans of the Secretary of State Road Map commitment to end incitement against for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Israel. [115678] Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague).

Alistair Burt: The British Government opposes the advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence in all circumstances. In response to allegations Farms: Crops of anti-Israeli incitement on Palestinian state television, officials from the British Consulate General in Jerusalem Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for have raised concerns with the Head of the News Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Department at Palestine TV who stressed that they have her Department has made of the profitability for farmers strict instructions from the highest Palestinian authorities of catch crops. [115494] to prevent the broadcasting of any material that promotes incitement or hatred. We are not aware of any other Mr Paice: DEFRA has not made any specific assessment credible recent evidence of anti-Israeli incitement by the of the profitability for farmers of catch crops. These Palestinian Authority. The Road Map stipulates that a crops tend to be grown as forage crops, often substituting tri-partite committee would look at incidents of incitement, for grazing or silage. Their contribution to farm profitability, to which any party can appeal. while being taken into account where appropriate, has not been separately assessed—the output in terms of Russia livestock production will be within livestock sales and value change, while the costs incurred in growing them, e.g. seed, fertiliser etc, are normally subsumed within Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for farm costs. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations his Department has made to Russia on the jailing of Farms: Water members of the punk band Pussy Riot. [115916] Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Lidington: We are extremely concerned about the for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what advice continued detention of three members of the band her Department has provided to farmers on the (a) Pussy Riot, who have been held in pre-trial detention effective and (b) reduced use of water. [115476] for almost four months. The severity of the Russian authorities’ response—detention on the serious criminal Richard Benyon: I refer the hon. Member to my reply charge of hooliganism—appears to be disproportionate of 19 April 2012, Official Report, column 495W, which to the manner in which they expressed their political described the assistance, including advice, being provided beliefs. Amnesty International has classified the members to farmers who operate in areas of drought. of Pussy Riot as “Prisoners of Conscience”. In the longer term, the Department has funded over The Government has repeatedly expressed its serious 20 research projects on the sustainable (effective and concern to the Russian Government over attempts to reduced) use of water in agriculture to the value of over limit freedom of assembly. We will continue to call on £6 million in the last six years. Most of these projects the Russian Government to protect the right to legitimate have a knowledge transfer component generating advisory protest and will raise this case at our UK-Russia Bilateral outputs, such as the DEFRA Water Audit toolkit available Human Rights Dialogue on 13 July. on the UK Irrigation Association website. 17W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 18W

The Department has provided advice on the cross I have received no recent representations on either a compliance aspects of water abstraction for many years. review of the Management Plan or the increased powers The Department’s new Farming Advice Service now of the Welsh Government. provides advice on climate change adaptation and has begun developing and delivering advice on water Floods: Crops management in both livestock and crops. The Environment Agency has published advice on the reduced and effective Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for use of water in agriculture on their website, in their Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment ‘Waterwise’ leaflets, and via direct advice to farmers, she has made of the potential for legal challenges by including construction of storage reservoirs, rainwater farmers against the Environment Agency for the effect harvesting, formation of water abstraction groups, irrigation of recent flooding on crops. [115475] and rotational planning, adoption of new (e.g. irrigation) technology. Richard Benyon: DEFRA has made no specific Natural England, through the Catchment Sensitive assessment of the potential for legal challenge by farmers Farming programme, offers training and advice to farmers against the Environment Agency due to the effects of within 65 priority catchments on a range of activities recent flooding on crops. relating to water use on farm, including reducing volumes of dirty water and utilising rainwater. This includes Floods: West Midlands advice and grants towards rainwater harvesting goods such as storage tanks, first flush rainwater diverters and Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State downpipe filters, yard works for clean and dirty water for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether her separation, roofing for slurry and silage stores and Department plans to compensate or provide relief to pesticide wash down areas. Training and advice is also those affected by recent flooding in the West Midlands. offered on best practice management of water runoff [115112] from land to reduce the risk of diffuse pollution from agriculture. Richard Benyon [holding answer 5 July 2012]: It has Fisheries: Dee Estuary been the policy of consecutive Governments not to compensate for damages from extreme weather events, not least because it would be unfair to those who Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for purchased insurance. Taxpayers’ money is best spent on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what long term solutions that reduce the risk from flooding representations her Department has received from (a) in the first place. Natural England, (b) the Sea Fisheries Liaison Group and (c) other groups on any increased Welsh use of the A Bellwin scheme may be activated where an emergency Dee estuary arising from the review of the Management or disaster occurs and local authorities incur expenditure Plan for the River Dee and increased powers from the taking action to safeguard life or property. The scheme is administered by the Department for Communities Welsh Government; [115286] and Local Government. (2) if she will make it her policy that an applicant should state whether they are a self-employed fisherman Food: Prices on an application for a new Dee estuary cockle fishery licence; [115287] Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) if she will make it her policy that both full and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she has temporary licences for Dee estuary cockle fishing should any further plans to review the recent evidence on the be non-transferable; [115288] drivers of food prices after the publication of the report (4) under what conditions the Environment Agency on the 2007/08 Agricultural Price Spikes: Causes and would award a Dee estuary cockle fishery temporary Policy Implications. [115967] licence; [115289] (5) whether she has taken steps to ensure an equal Mr Paice: The Government continues to look at the distribution of Dee estuary cockle fishery licences on potential drivers behind the prices of agricultural the English and Welsh sides of the River Dee. [115290] commodities and food. During the price spike in 2007-08, the drivers included fundamental changes in supply and Richard Benyon: The Environment Agency is responsible demand; the run-down of agricultural stocks; export for the management of the Dee cockle fishery. The restrictions imposed by states in response to the shortages; fishery is currently regulated by the Dee Regulating and market uncertainty about the status of supplies. We Order 2008 (granted to the Environment Agency under will continue to research other areas where the results of the Sea Fisheries (Shellfish) Act 1967), and the fishery activity are less certain, such as biofuels policies and managed as set out in the associated Management Plan. market speculation. It is my understanding that, as set out in the Management The Government also actively monitors food prices Plan for the fishery, the licences under the Order are and the drivers behind changes in commodity prices. non-transferable and that any decision to issue temporary Research into this area has shown that the key drivers licences is made on the basis of annual cockle stock behind changes in food prices are global agricultural surveys. New licences are allocated to those on a waiting commodity prices, exchange rates, and fluctuating oil list; when the Environment Agency compiled this list prices. evidence of commercial fishing activity was a requirement. We are also active on the world stage, working with The Environment Agency does not restrict licences G20 partners to improve market information through based on geographical location. the Agricultural Market Information System and working 19W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 20W to discourage inappropriate reactions to market events, For the periods 2009-10 and 2010-11 the information such as the use of export bans, through the Rapid requested is not held centrally and could not be obtained Response Forum. without incurring disproportionate costs. Government Procurement Card Livestock: Exports : To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for procurement card holders in her Department were (a) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much livestock paid off-payroll, (b) employed on a part-time basis and was exported for slaughter outside of the UK in each of (c) employed as a non-permanent employee in (i) 2009-10, the last five years. [114341] (ii) 2010-11 and (iii) 2011-12. [113337] Mr Paice: Prior to 2009, individual Animal Health Richard Benyon: Core DEFRA’s policy is that only offices had responsibility for tracking exports. Therefore, its own employees (i.e. those on payroll) who are working data prior to 2009 is not held centrally. The data for in core DEFRA at the time and not on loan elsewhere 2010 is limited as the introduction of a centralised team may use one of its Government Procurement Cards. within Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories was For the period 2011-12, 739 full-time and 67 part-time gradual. employees of core DEFRA held Government Procurement The centralised data available is set out in the following Cards. table:

No. of consignments for Animals slaughter No. of animals for slaughter Total no. of animals

2011 Pigs 6 422 127,563 Sheep and Goats 40 14,606 1— Cattle 91 12,535 1—

2012 (to date) Pigs 0 0 23,246 Sheep and Goats 10 3,098 2— Cattle 1 148 2— 1 Indicates a brace. 2 Indicates a brace.

Rain Forests COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Housing: Construction Environment, Foodand Rural Affairs what the Government’s policy is on the continuing destruction of the rainforests. Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for [115798] Communities and Local Government how many (a) owner-occupied, (b) housing association, (c) privately Richard Benyon [holding answer 6 July 2012]: Tackling rented and (d) local authority houses have been built in illegal logging and deforestation is a priority for the coalition each of the last 15 years. [115392] Government, and we are in the process of implementing Grant Shapps: Statistics on house building are published two EU Regulations to tackle the trade in illegal timber. on the Department for Communities and Local The EU Timber Regulation, which enters into force on Government website at the following link. These figures 3 March 2013, will require operators first placing timber and include completions in England for each of the last 15 timber products on the EU market to exercise due diligence years, and include a breakdown into house building by to ensure that this timber has been legally harvested. private enterprise, housing associations and local authorities. The Regulation also includes a prohibition on the first It is not possible to measure how many of these are placing of illegal timber on the EU market. This approach built for owner-occupation or private rental. is complemented by the EU FLEGT (Forest Law Enforcement, Governance and Trade) Regulation, under http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ which countries can sign a voluntary partnership agreement housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/housebuilding/ with the EU to ensure that timber and timber products from those countries has come from legally harvested sources. Six countries have signed agreements with the WOMEN AND EQUALITIES EU and are developing their legality assurance systems Homosexuality: Marriage to ensure compliance with the Agreements. The Government has also set up an International Karl McCartney: To ask the Minister for Women and Climate Fund (ICF) to help developing countries tackle Equalities if she will take steps to ensure that the views climate change and reduce poverty. Protecting the world’s of all sections of society, including those who have not forests is a priority theme of the ICF, accounting for responded to her consultation on same-sex marriage around 20% of the total funds (£2.9 billion) from 2011 are taken into account during policy development. to 2015. [115720] 21W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 22W

Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 6 July 2012]: result of the problems at Ulster Bank and will put The Government consultation on enabling same-sex matters right if those customers get in touch with couples to have a civil marriage ceremony closed on HMRC. 14 June 2012. We are currently considering all the We shall continue to monitor the situation until the responses and will publish a Government response by problems at Ulster Bank are resolved. the end of the year. I am aware that there are a wide range of opinions on this subject and therefore every effort has been made to ensure that people, across all views, had the opportunity ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE to respond to the consultation. Both Ministers and Electricity Generation officials widely encouraged both individual responses and those from organisations that would represent many more people. The Government will be taking into account Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for all responses received during this time, via correspondence, Energy and Climate Change whether he plans to announce email, or the online consultation form. the recommendations of his Electricity Demand Reduction Project before the summer recess. [115817]

NORTHERN IRELAND Charles Hendry: In the July 2011 White Paper, “Planning our electric future: a White Paper for secure, affordable Bank Services and low-carbon electricity”, DECC committed to undertake an assessment by summer 2012 to determine whether Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern DECC should take further steps to improve the support Ireland what discussions he has had with the Chancellor and incentives for the efficient use of electricity. of the Exchequer on the provisions of customer This assessment is nearing completion and will be compensation for (a) bank fines and (b) third-party published shortly. fines incurred as a result of the recent bank system errors within (i) Royal Bank of Scotland, (ii) NatWest Electricity: Scotland and (iii) Ulster Bank; and if he will make a statement. [115730] Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paterson: I refer the hon. Member to the reply Energy and Climate Change what the total cost to the given by the Minister of State, , public purse was of the Hydro-Benefit Replacement my right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon Scheme in (a) 2008, (b) 2009, (c) 2010, (d) 2011 and (Mr Swire) to the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) (e) 2012 to date. [115323] on 4 July 2012, Official Report, column 901, and to the replies I have subsequently given to the hon. Member Gregory Barker: The cost of the Hydro-Benefit for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) on 5 July 2012, Official Replacement Scheme is recovered through charges on Report, column, 736W, and 6 July 2012, Official Report, the licensed electricity supply companies across Great column 859W. Britain. The following table sets out the total amount recovered (or to be recovered) for each financial year as The Chairman of RBS has given us assurances that supplied by National Grid. Ulster Bank will treat their customers properly and fairly and that they will be compensated fully for financial Financial year Total amount recovered (£ million) loss. HM Treasury and the FSA are carefully monitoring 2008-09 46.505 the situation, as am I, and we remain in close contact 2009-10 48.672 with RBS. 2010-11 48.059 Since the problems in Ulster Bank arose I have discussed 2011-12 50.361 the matter with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the 2012-13 52.985 right hon. Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), and the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable) Energy and Climate Change what the total cost to the and the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury, my hon. public purse was of the Common Tariff Obligation in Friend the Member for South West Hertfordshire (a) 2008, (b) 2009, (c) 2010, (d) 2011 and (e) 2012 to (Mr Gauke). My right hon. Friend the Minister of State date. [115324] has also had regular discussions with the Chairman of RBS, Sir Philip Hampton, and the Chief Executive of Gregory Barker: The Common Tariff Obligation RBS, Stephen Hester, and the Exchequer Secretary prohibits licensed electricity suppliers from discriminating during this period. During his latest telephone call with among comparable domestic customers in charges on Stephen Hester this morning, the Minister of State was the basis of their location in the North of Scotland and assured that further progress had been made and that as such imposes no cost on the public purse. Ulster Bank are hopeful that all outstanding problems will be resolved later this week. It is important the Bank Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for continues to make all efforts to ensure this happens. Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made We have also discussed the issue with HM Revenue & of the number of consumers in Scotland who have Customs who have assured us that they will treat participated in the (a) Common Tariff Obligation and sympathetically and considerately any taxpayers who (b) Hydro-Benefit Replacement Scheme in (i) 2008, (ii) are charged a penalty or surcharge for late payment as a 2009, (iii) 2010, (iv) 2011 and (v) 2012 to date. [115325] 23W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 24W

Gregory Barker: All consumers in the Scottish and £ million Southern Energy Power Distribution area benefit from both the Common Tariff Obligation and the Hydro Total spend by suppliers on Benefit Replacement Scheme. Set out in the following energy price table is the number of consumers (both domestic and Financial year and scheme details support industrial/commercial) served by Scottish and Southern Energy Power Distribution as supplied by the company. April 2010 to March 2011 (third year of the voluntary 178 agreement—agreed spend was £150 million Number of consumers April 2009 to March 2010 (second year of the l53 voluntary agreement—agreed spend was £125 million 2008 709,201 April 2008 to March 2009 (first year of the voluntary 157 2009 721,019 agreement—agreed spend was £100 million 2010 729,290 April 2007 to March 2008 57 1 2011 740,768 Estimate—subject to confirmation by Ofgem following end of year audits. 2012 745,907 Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will take steps to Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made provide assistance to care homes in meeting energy of the total average saving per year for consumers in costs. [115611] Scotland through the Common Tariff Obligation in (a) 2008, (b) 2009, (c) 2010, (d) 2011 and (e) 2012 to Gregory Barker [holding answer 6 July 2012]: The date. [115326] Department has no such plans. However, care homes, like all British homes and businesses, will have the Gregory Barker: The Common Tariff Obligation opportunity to take up energy efficiency measures to prohibits licensed electricity suppliers from discriminating help them manage their fuel bills under the Government’s among comparable domestic customers in charges on new Green Deal. the basis of their location. It is not possible to estimate what each consumer’s annual electricity bill would have Environment Protection: Employment been in the absence of the Common Tariff Obligation. Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy: Prices Energy and Climate Change how many people were employed in the (a) environmental and (b) renewable Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy energy sector in May (i) 2010 and (ii) 2012. [115942] and Climate Change how much money energy companies have spent on assisting low income households and low Gregory Barker: DECC has not made any assessment income areas in each of the last five years. [114797] of the number of people employed in the (a) environmental and (b) renewable energy sector in May (i) 2010 and (ii) Gregory Barker: Energy companies are required to 2012. assist low income households through the delivery of Over the 2011 to 2012 financial year, the Office for energy efficiency measures under the Community Energy Renewable Energy Deployment (ORED) collated industry Saving Programme and at least 15% of their carbon announcements totalling £6.9 billion confirmed and emissions reduction target obligations. We do not currently planned investments in the renewable energy sector, have powers to require suppliers to disclose how much with the potential support of over 20,800 jobs. they spend under these schemes. Estimates of the overall cost to companies in meeting their obligations are set Green Deal Scheme out in the relevant impact assessments. We have powers that will enable us to obtain better information about Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for costs under the new energy company obligation. Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the oral answer The amount that suppliers have spent over the past of 20 March 2012, Official Report, column 602W, to the five years on providing assistance with energy bills to hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree, what the cost to low income and to vulnerable households is set out in the public purse will be of the Green Deal in (a) 2012, the following table. This information has been sourced (b) 2013, (c) 2014 and (d) 2015. [115049] from Ofgem’s reports on suppliers’ social spending for April 2007 to March 2011. The estimate of suppliers’ Gregory Barker: Budgets for the Green Deal are as spending on the first year of the Warm Home Discount follows: scheme is based on the impact assessment for the scheme and will be confirmed following Ofgem’s end of year Green Deal cost (£ million) audits of suppliers’ spending on the scheme. 2012-13 30.4 £ million 2013-14 25.9 Total spend by 2014-15 19.5 suppliers on energy price Budgets beyond 2012-13 are indicative only. The Financial year and scheme details support above table does not include the £200 million for a April 2011 to March 2012 (first year of the Warm 1250 launch incentives scheme which is allocated across 2012-13 Home Discount Scheme) and 2013-14. 25W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 26W

Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy much income local authorities have generated from the and Climate Change if his Department will assess the sale of renewable electricity, the total proportion of energy saving performance of window film and electricity in England generated by local authority-owned consider it for inclusion in the Green Deal. [115589] renewables or the number of renewable electricity generation projects commissioned by local authorities. Gregory Barker: Window film is not currently eligible Renewable generation is currently supported through for Green Deal finance, but could potentially be included the Renewables Obligation (RO), with Feed-in Tariffs if a quantified and verified energy saving estimate is (FITs) incentivising small-scale generation. Both schemes modelled in the assessment tools RdSAP or SBEM. are administered by Ofgem. Information on registered This is necessary because the assessment tools generate installations receiving support under the two schemes is the savings estimate on which the Green Deal finance available from the Ofgem Renewables and CHP Register quote is based. The route industry can use to include and Ofgem’s Central FITs Register. Both can be accessed measures in the assessment tools is through a process through the following link: called Appendix Q. Details can be found on the Building https://www.renewablesandchp.ofgem.gov.uk Research Establishment’s website. Renewable Energy: West Midlands Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what representations he has Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State received on enabling the fitting of window film to be for Energy and Climate Change what steps the Government included within the Green Deal. [115590] is taking to stimulate the manufacturing of renewable energy technology in the West Midlands. [115317] Gregory Barker: We have received a number of representations about window film being included in Gregory Barker [holding answer 5 July 2012]: Recent the Green Deal. steps taken by the Government to stimulate the Window film is not currently eligible for Green Deal manufacturing of renewable energy technology across finance, but could potentially be included if a quantified England include encouraging businesses in the sector to and verified energy saving estimate is modelled in the apply for grants and/or loans from the new £125 million assessment tools RdSAP or SBEM. This is necessary Advanced Manufacturing Supply Chain Initiative (AMSCI) because the assessment tools generate the savings estimate and £l billion Regional Growth Fund (RGF) Round on which the Green Deal finance quote is based. The Three. Businesses in the West Midlands are eligible to route industry can use to include measures in the assessment submit bids for the AMSCI or RGF as appropriate. tools is through a process called Appendix Q. Details In addition, renewable energy companies across the can be found on the Building Research Establishment’s UK can apply for innovation funding and support. This website. includes the Second Call for proposals for the Offshore Nuclear Power Wind Component Technologies Development and Demonstration Scheme and support under the Energy Entrepreneurs Fund. Full details of the available innovation Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for funding and support can be found on DECC’s website at: Energy and Climate Change when his Department last http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/funding/funding_ops/ met (a) Citigroup, (b) KPMG and (c) innovation/innovation.aspx PricewaterhouseCoopers to discuss the strike price for nuclear power. [115481] Based on recent announcements, we are aware of £51 million investment in the renewable energy sector in the Charles Hendry: The Department regularly meets a West Midlands over the 2011-12 financial year with the range of external stakeholders and financial institutions support of 150 jobs. to discuss a number of issues relating to electricity Warm Home Discount Scheme market reform, but has not met Citigroup, KPMG, or PricewaterhouseCoopers specifically to discuss the strike price for nuclear power. Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many people he estimates Renewable Energy will receive the Warm Homes Discount in 2012-13. [115881] Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how much renewable electricity Gregory Barker: Around 2 million households will has been sold to the grid (a) in total and (b) by each receive support under the Warm Home Discount scheme local authority in England and Wales since August in 2012-13. This is expected to include around 1 million 2010; how much income local authorities have generated of the poorest pensioners. from the sale of renewable electricity in the last 12 months; what the total proportion is of electricity in England generated by local authority-owned renewables; how INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT many new renewable electricity generation projects have Afghanistan been commissioned by local authorities since August 2010; and if he will make a statement. [R] [115576] Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development (1) whether the UK plans Gregory Barker: DECC does not maintain records of to allocate new funds to address violence against women how much renewable electricity has been sold to the and girls at the upcoming Tokyo conference on Afghanistan; grid by local authorities in England and Wales, how [115301] 27W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 28W

(2) what budget commitment the Government is Public Expenditure planning to make to help tackle violence against women and girls as part of its contribution at the upcoming John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Tokyo meeting on development in Afghanistan; [115302] International Development with reference to the speech (3) how the Government plans to ensure that violence by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury of 23 April 2012 against women is addressed at the upcoming Tokyo at the Institute for Fiscal Studies, (1) what progress his meeting on development in Afghanistan. [115303] Department has made on identifying a proportion of its resource budget that can be re-prioritised; what steps Mr Andrew Mitchell: The international community he has taken to identify such funds; and which parts of must make long-term development commitments at his Department’s resource budget he has identified as Tokyo to secure Afghanistan’s future. Once the level of suitable for re-prioritisation; [115736] international finance and the Government of Afghanistan’s (2) what discussions he has had with his Department’s reform commitments have been agreed, the UK, along agencies and the non-departmental bodies for which he with our Afghan and international partners, will review is responsible on the contribution they will make to how resources can best be prioritised for the good of identifying resource budget for possible re-prioritisation; the Afghan people. Last weekend, I announced that the [115737] UK will maintain its current funding levels of £178 (3) when he will make public the areas of his million per year for the next five years. Department’s resource budget he has identified for The UK is already working closely with the Afghan possible re-prioritisation; and when he plans to report Government and Afghan Civil Society to secure progress to the International Development Select Committee on on women’s rights, by educating girls, by helping 8,000 the outcome of this exercise. [115738] of the poorest women into jobs and working with groups dedicated to protecting women. I met women’s Mr Duncan: DFID is working with the Treasury to groups last weekend in Lashkar Gar in Afghanistan agree contingency plans as set out in the Improving and will be meeting with Afghan women civil society Spending Control document. This can be found at: representatives in the margins of the Tokyo conference http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ to hear first hand how the UK can best support women’s improving_spending_control.pdf rights in the years ahead. Plans and options for re-prioritisation will not be Developing Countries: Biofuels published. They should be ″live″ plans that are reassessed and updated on an ongoing basis. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for South Sudan International Development what representations he has made to the EU Foreign Affairs Council on the effect of Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for biofuels on sustainable development in developing countries. International Development whether plans to build teacher [115915] training centres in South Sudan will still go ahead in the original timeframe. [115696] Mr O’Brien: The Secretary of State for International Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for Mr Andrew Mitchell: The UK Government is committed Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), has not made any to enabling two million children (793,000 girls) to attend direct representations to the EU Foreign Affairs Council primary education and print and distribute 9.4 million on the impact of biofuels on sustainable development textbooks in South Sudan by 2015. Current programmes in developing countries. It was not on the agenda at the include increasing access to primary and secondary last EU Foreign Affairs Council. education through the construction of 33 primary schools The UK must, in law, comply with the EU renewable and four secondary schools in four states of South. energy directive (RED) which contains a target for the Sudan. Over 1,100 teachers have been trained under the UK to source 15% of its overall energy, and 10% of Basic Services Fund while 9,000 out-of-school children energy used in transport, from renewable sources by have been provided with quality primary education 2020. The European Commission must monitor and through the Global Poverty Action Fund. report every two years on the impact of biofuel policy Achieving the planned results will be much more and increased demand for biofuel on social sustainability. challenging given the consequences of the loss of South Reports must address issues of land use rights, and Sudan’s oil revenues. One consequence of the financial must also state whether the production of raw material crisis in South Sudan is that we have deferred some for biofuel for use in the EU complies with conventions infrastructure projects in favour of higher priority and of the International Labour Organisation. If necessary, humanitarian and essential service delivery activities. the Commission must propose corrective action. The County Education Centres (CEC) project is one Parliamentary Private Secretaries: Visits Abroad example. It remains part of DFID’s longer term plans.

Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development on which occasions his EDUCATION parliamentary private secretary has travelled overseas with him or on his behalf since May 2010. [115348] Academies: Complaints

Mr Andrew Mitchell: There have been no occasions Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for when my parliamentary private secretary has travelled Education how many complaints (a) his Department overseas with me or on my behalf since May 2010. and (b) the Education Funding Agency have received 29W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 30W against free schools and academies with regard to their funding agreements. Neither organisation sought provision for children with special educational needs clarification from the Department about its role in and disabilities. [111388] handling complaints about academies. No organisation, other than the Education Funding Tim Loughton: The Department (a) in the past 12 Agency or the Department for Education, has a role in months has not received any complaints against free handling complaints against free schools or academies. schools and academies with regard to provision for (b) The Special Educational Consortium has sought children with special educational needs and disabilities. clarification from the Department on the role of the The Department manages the determination of disputes EFA in handling complaints against free schools and between academies and local authorities about the naming academies. of an academy in a child’s statement of SEN. In the same period of time the Department has dealt with 16 Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for cases which have been referred either by an academy or Education what guidance he has issued to the by a local authority. Education Funding Agency or its predecessor on its (b) Since 1 April 2012, the Education Funding Agency role in handling complaints against free schools and has received three pieces of correspondence that relate academies. [111411] to complaints about academies with regard to provision for children with special educational needs and disabilities, Mr Gibb: Free schools and academies should have but these are out of the scope of its published complaints their own complaints procedures. The Education Funding procedures. Agency (EFA) will handle complaints made about free schools and academies where they fail to follow these Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for procedures. Education how many complaints against academies If the EFA finds that a free school or academy did and free schools are being examined by (a) his Department not deal with a complaint appropriately it will request and (b) the Education Funding Agency. [111391] that the complaint is reconsidered. Tim Loughton: At present the (a) Department does The EFA will also look at complaints where an not hold this data centrally, and (b) the Education academy has failed to comply with a duty imposed on it Funding Agency is currently processing 13 complaints under its funding agreement. If it is satisfied that an about academies under its published procedures, and 10 academy is in breach of the funding agreement, and complaints about the administration of Independent that the breach cannot be addressed informally, then it Appeals Panels for admission to academies. can seek to enforce compliance through the courts. In the future the Department will be providing this Education Funding Agency: Complaints information to the Education Select Committee in an annual report. Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many complaints he has received on the Education how many complaints against academies complaints procedures of the Education Funding and free schools have been processed by (a) his Department Agency and its predecessor. [111387] and (b) the Education Funding Agency and its predecessor. [111392] Tim Loughton: Since 2010-11 the Department received one complaint about the complaints procedure of the Tim Loughton: At present the (a) Department does Education Funding Agency and its predecessor. not hold this data centrally, and (b) the Education Funding Agency, and its predecessor the YoungPeople’s Education Maintenance Allowance Learning Agency (YPLA), had systems in place to record overall volumes of correspondence about complaints Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for but not numbers of cases it was investigating under its Education what assessment he has made of the effect of published procedures. the withdrawal of the education maintenance allowance An exception to this was complaints about administration on the number of 16 to 19-year-olds entering further of Independent Appeals Panels for admission to academies. education in (a) Coventry, (b) Coventry North East YPLA considered 118 cases, up to March 2012, through constituency, (c) the West Midlands and (d) England. a separate published process. [115823] In the future the Department will be providing this information to the Education Select Committee in an Mr Gibb: Underlying trends in participation in further annual report. education can be influenced by a range of factors; including the effects of changes to the economy, both at Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for a national and local level; the availability and types of Education whether (a) the Education Funding Agency courses on offer locally; and the support provided by or its predecessor and (b) other organisations and individuals local services. It is not possible to disaggregate the have sought clarification from his Department on their impact of changes made to financial support from these role in handling complaints against free schools and other factors in the short term. academies. [111410] The Department has commissioned an independent evaluation of the 16 to19 Bursary Fund (which replaced Tim Loughton: The (a) Education Funding Agency education maintenance allowance from the beginning (EFA) has assumed the YoungPeople’s Learning Agency’s of the current academic year). The evaluation will consider responsibility for ensuring that academies comply with the perceived and actual impact of the new scheme on 31W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 32W participation and attainment for students in specific (c) a sixth-form college; and what proportion of the groups. It will investigate differences and impacts at a total number of students studying at each such institution national and regional level (including for the midlands), this represents. [116046] but not at a constituency level. Education: Warrington Mr Gibb: Tables 1 and 2 shows estimates for the number and percentage of 16 to 18-year-olds who were Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Education entitled to free school meals (FSM) in year 11 who how many 16 to 18-year-olds in (a) Warrington and studied in (a) further education colleges, (b) a school (b) Warrington North constituency who were entitled sixth form and (c) a sixth-form college in Warrington to a free school meal in year 11 are studying in (a) local authority and Warrington North constituency in further education colleges, (b) a school sixth form and the 2010/11 academic year.

Table 1: 16 to 18-year-olds who studied in school sixth form/sixth-form college/FE college in Warrington local authority in 2010/11 by FSM status at age 15 Number of students aged 16 to 18 FE colleges School sixth form Sixth-form college Total

Eligible for FSM Full-time education 210 50 125 390 Part-time education 5 — 5 10 Total 215 50 135 400

Not eligible for FSM Full-time education 1,120 1,335 2,060 4,510 Part-time education 65 — 25 90 Total 1,185 1,335 2,085 4,605

Unknown FSM status Full-time education 55 25 60 140 Part-time education 20 — 5 25 Total 75 25 65 165

Total Full-time education 1,385 1,410 2,250 5,045 Part-time education 90 — 35 125 Total 1,475 1,410 2,285 5,170

Percentage of students aged 16 to 18 FE colleges School sixth form Sixth-form college Total

Eligible for FSM Full-time education 15 4 6 8 Part-time education 4 — 17 8 Total 15 4 6 8

Not eligible for FSM Full-time education 81 94 92 89 Part-time education 72 — 74 73 Total 80 94 91 89

Unknown FSM status Full-time education 4 2 3 3 Part-time education 23 — 9 19 Total 5 2 3 3

Total Full-time education 100 100 100 100 Part-time education 100 — 100 100 Total 100 100 100 100

Table 2: 16 to 18-year-olds who studied in school sixth form/sixth-form college/FE college in Warrington North constituency in 2010/11 by FSM status at age 15 Number of students aged 16 to 18 FE colleges School sixth form Sixth-form college Total

Eligible for FSM Full-time education 210 25 — 240 Part-time education 5 — — 5 Total 215 25 — 240

Not eligible for FSM Full-time education 1,120 320 — 1,440 Part-time education 65 — — 65 33W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 34W

Table 2: 16 to 18-year-olds who studied in school sixth form/sixth-form college/FE college in Warrington North constituency in 2010/11 by FSM status at age 15 Number of students aged 16 to 18 FE colleges School sixth form Sixth-form college Total

Total 1,185 320 — 1,505

Unknown FSM status Full-time education 55 5 — 60 Part-time education 20 — — 20 Total 75 5 — 85

Total Full-time education 1,385 355 — 1,740 Part-time education 90 — — 90 Total 1,475 355 — 1,830

Percentage of students aged 16 to 18 FE colleges School sixth form Sixth-form college Total

Eligible for FSM Full-time education 15 8 — 14 Part-time education 4 — — 4 Total 15 8 — 13

Not eligible for FSM Full-time education 81 90 — 83 Part-time education 72 — — 72 Total 80 90 — 82

Unknown FSM status Full-time education 4 2 — 4 Part-time education 23 — — 23 Total 5 2 — 5

Total Full-time education 100 100 — 100 Part-time education 100 — — 100 Total 100 100 — 100 Notes: 1. Data are rounded to the nearest five students. The components of each table may not sum to the total due to independent rounding 2. FSM status is recorded for students in state schools at academic age 15. 3. School sixth forms includes special schools with a designated sixth form.

Free School Meals: Bassetlaw Table 1: 16 to 18-year-olds who studied in sixth form/FE colleges in Bassetlaw in 2010/11 by FSM status at age 15 Number John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many 16 to 18-year-olds who were entitled to free Unknown FSM status at 15 school meals in Year 11 are studying in a general further Full-time education 50 education or sixth form college in Bassetlaw. [114885] Part-time education 30 Total 80 Mr Gibb: Table 1 shows estimates for the numbers of 16 to 18-year-olds who were entitled to free school Total meals (FSM) in year 11 who studied in a general further Full-time education 965 education or sixth form college in Bassetlaw local authority Part-time education 265 in the 2010/11 academic year. Total 1,230 Notes: Table 1: 16 to 18-year-olds who studied in sixth form/FE colleges in Bassetlaw in 1. Data are rounded to the nearest five students. The components of each table 2010/11 by FSM status at age 15 may not sum to the total due to independent rounding. Number 2. FSM status is recorded for students in state schools at academic age 15.

Eligible for FSM at 15 Further Education: Wentworth Full-time education 160 Part-time education 35 John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Total 195 how many 16 to 18-year-olds who were entitled to a free meal in Year 11 are now studying in a general further Not eligible for FSM at 15 education or sixth form college in Wentworth and Dearne Full-time education 755 constituency. [115765] Part-time education 205 Total 955 Mr Gibb: Table 1 shows estimates for the numbers of 16 to 18-year-olds who were entitled to free school 35W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 36W meals (FSM) in year 11 who studied in a general further GCSE education or sixth form college in the Wentworth and Dearne constituency in the 2010/11 academic year. Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Table 1: 16 to 18-year-olds who studied in sixth form/FE colleges in the Education how many and what proportion of Key Wentworth and Dearne constituency, in 2010/11 by FSM status at age 15 Stage 4 students took (a) only GCSEs, (b) GCSEs and Number other qualifications and (c) no qualifications in each of Eligible for FSM at 15 the last five years. [114315] Full-time education 240 Part-time education 45 Mr Gibb: The information requested is given in the Total 280 following table: Number and percentage of pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 who have attempted Not eligible for FSM at 15 only GCSEs, GCSE and equivalent or no qualifications; year: 2006/07 to 2010/ 111, Coverage: England Full-time education 990 Pupils who have Pupils who have Pupils who have. Part-time education 185 attempted GCSE attempted GCSE achieved no Total 1,170 qualifications and equivalent qualifications5 only2,3 qualifications4 No. of %of No. of %of No. of %of Unknown FSM status at 15 pupils pupils pupils pupils pupils pupils Full-time education 45 2006/07 322,830 49.3 646,451 98.7 8,695 1.3 Part-time education 10 2007/08 247,994 38.0 646,969 99.1 6,114 0.9 Total 50 2008/09 175,190 27.6 629,470 99.2 5,026 0.8 2009/10 130,976 20.5 632,429 98.9 6,834 1.1 Total 2010/ 96,618 15.4 624,220 99.4 3,525 0.6 Full-time education 1,270 116 Part-time education 235 1 Includes attempts and achievements by these pupils in previous academic Total 1,505 years. 2 Includes full GCSEs, short course GCSEs, double award and vocational Notes: GCSEs. 1. Data are rounded to the nearest five students. The components of each table 3 From 2010, also includes accredited iGCSEs. may not sum to the total due to independent rounding. 4 Includes pupils entered for any qualification included in the Secondary School 2. FSM status is recorded for students in state schools at academic age 15. Performance Tables. 5 Only pupils who have achieved vocational qualifications are included in our GCE A-level data. For GCSEs, all pupils who are entered are included. 6Figures-for 2010/11 are revised, all other figures are final.

Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many and what proportion of pupils Education what assessment he has made of the potential who (a) were and (b) were not receiving free school effect on further education rates of his proposed changes meals in their last year of compulsory secondary school to the GCSE system in (a) Bethnal Green and Bow (i) entered at least one A level, (ii) achieved three or constituency, (b) Tower Hamlets and (c) nationally. more A-levels and (iii) achieved three or more grade As [115648] atAlevel. [116023] Mr Gibb: We are considering options for the long Mr Gibb: The information requested by free school term reform of Key Stage 4 examinations and will set meal eligibility (eligible for and claiming free school out our proposals shortly. Those proposals will look to meals) is provided in the following table. Information address the failure of the current GCSE system to on whether or not a pupil is receiving free schools meals support the further education prospects of those who is not available. currently achieve lower grades. The evidence for that Number and percentage of pupils1 entering at least one A level2 in 2010/11 and failure is clear. those achieving three or more A levels (at grades A*-E) and three or more A*-A grades, by free school meal eligibility3 The Longitudinal Study of Young People in England Pupils All other All pupils (LSYPE) showed that 17% of young people who had not eligible for pupils achievedaCgradeatGCSE spent at least 12 months free school not in education, employment or training (NEET), in meals the 21 months after compulsory schooling ended1, No. % No. % No. % compared to 2% of those with five to seven GCSEs at Entering at least one 13,447 52.1 211,791 68.2 225,238 67.0 A*-C. level2 Of those pupils entering 8,459 62.9 162,609 76.8 171,068 75.9 In 2008, 16% of students obtained the lower GCSE at least one A level, those grades (E, F and G) in English and 22% in maths by achieving three or more age 16; only 10% of them continued to study these A*-E grades GCSEs after the age of 16 and only 2% achieved a C Of those pupils entering 546 4.1 22,353 10.6 22,899 10.2 at least one A level, those grade or above by 19. achieving three or more A*-A grades In presenting our reforms, we will be looking to 1 Pupils aged 16-18 at the start of the 2010/11 academic year attending ensure that our qualifications will support every student maintained schools (including Academies and CTCs) and FE sector colleges. with a good foundation for progression to further education. 2 Includes GCE/Applied GCE A Levels and Double Awards. 1 3 Pupils eligible for free school meals at the end of year 11. September 2006 to May 2008: LSYPE tracked outcomes for a Source: sample of young people who were in year 11 in the academic year National Pupil Database (final data) 2005/06. 37W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 38W

HM Chief Inspector of Schools: Correspondence The Department is not planning to make any changes to the Key Stage 1 assessment levels ahead of introducing a new National Curriculum. Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what expectation he has of the time taken by the chief inspector of schools to reply to correspondence from Pupil Exclusions hon. Members; and if he will make a statement. [115203] Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Mr Gibb [holding answer 4 July 2012]: As a non- what progress he has made on producing a nationwide ministerial Government Department, Ofsted is responsible league table of secondary school fixed period and for its own correspondence handling arrangements. The permanent exclusions; and what progress he has made Cabinet Office publishes an annual report detailing on those exclusions being shown by (a) ethnicity and departmental performance in the handling of Members’ (b) socio-economic background. [115186] correspondence and the 2011 report showed that Ofsted replied to 90% of letters from parliamentarians within Mr Gibb: The Government are considering the case the target of 15 working days. for publishing school-level exclusion data. The Government are addressing the disproportionately Lost Working Days high exclusion rates of pupils from certain ethnic groups and those from lower socio-economic backgrounds by creating the right incentives for schools to work with Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for these pupils in order to prevent exclusion. This includes Education what the average number of working days trialling a new system of exclusion in 11 local authorities lost per person was in (a) his Department and (b) that places greater responsibility on schools for the each of its agencies in each of the last three years. education that excluded pupils receive, as well as allowing [115667] schools to access funding for early intervention with pupils at risk of exclusion. The independent evaluation Tim Loughton: The information for the Department of this system will look in detail at the outcomes for is shown in the following table: pupils in groups that are especially vulnerable to exclusion, Average working days lost per person including pupils from ethnic groups with high rates of Department exclusion and those who are eligible for free school for Education Executive agencies meals. EFA STA TA NCSL The Government have also revised statutory exclusion guidance to clarify schools’ legal duty not to discriminate June 2009 to 6.6 — — — — May 2010 against a particular group of pupils through their use of June 2010 to 5.7 — — — — exclusion and to highlight the importance of identifying May 2011 and addressing any additional needs of pupils from June 2011 to 5.4 4.4 3 4.5 6 groups who are vulnerable to exclusion. May 2012 Schools are held to account for their use of exclusion through the inspection process. The rates and patterns The Department has four executive agencies: the of exclusion are part of the evidence that Ofsted inspectors Standards and Testing Agency, the Teaching Agency, take into account when coming to a judgment on a the National College, and the Education Funding Agency. school’s behaviour and safety. This assessment specifically The Standards and Testing Agency opened on 1 October includes consideration of whether any particular groups 2011; the other three agencies began operating on 1 April of pupils have been disproportionately excluded. 2012. Pupil Exclusions: Greater London Primary Education Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State Education how many exclusions there have been in (a) for Education for what reason primary school reporting Greater London and (b) the London borough of of pupils’ levels identifies sub-levels at Level 2 but not Hackney in each of the last 10 years. [115187] Level 1 or Level 3; and if he will make a statement. [115922] Mr Gibb: Exclusions data for 2005/06 to 2009/10 are shown in the tables. To provide data prior to 2005/06 Mr Gibb: The Department started to collect Key would incur disproportionate cost. Stage 1 statutory teacher assessment results in 1992. In The latest data on exclusions were published in the the first few years of this collection around 80% of ‘Permanent and Fixed Period Exclusions from Schools pupils were assessed at level 2. Sub levels were introduced in England 2009/10’ Statistical First Release on 28 July in 1997 to differentiate the attainment of this large 2011 at: group of pupils. http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001016/ Key Stage 1 tests and tasks inform the statutory index.shtml teacher assessment judgment. Level 1 and Level 3 tests Data for 2010/11 will be published in the ‘Permanent are designed to assess whole levels of attainment, but and Fixed Period Exclusions from Schools in England Level 2 tasks and tests do differentiate between the 2010/11’ Statistical First Release on 25 July 2012 at: three sub-levels. This helps the teachers to assess their http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001080/ pupils accurately. index.shtml 39W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 40W

Maintained primary, state-funded secondary and special schools1,2,3: Number and percentage of permanent exclusions4 by type of school, Hackney local authority and London. 2005/06 to 2009/10 (estimates) London Maintained primary1 State-funded secondary1,2 Special3 Maintained primary, state-funded secondary and special schools1,2,3 No. of No. of No. of No. of permanent % of the school permanent % of the school permanent % of the school permanent % of the school exclusions7 population6 exclusions7 population6 exclusions7 population6 exclusions7 population6

2005/06 150 0.02 1,440 0.33 30 0.29 1,620 0.15 2006/07 120 0.02 1,270 0.29 30 0.22 1,420 0.13 2007/08 160 0.03 1,260 0.29 20 0.17 1,440 0.13 2008/09 90 0.01 1,080 0.24 20 0.15 1,190 0.11 2009/10 80 0.01 990 0.22 10 0.12 1,080 0.10

Hackney Maintained primary1 State-funded secondary1,2 Special3 Maintained primary, state-funded secondary and special schools1,2,3 No. of No. of No. of No. of permanent % of the school permanent % of the school permanent % of the school permanent % of the school exclusions population6 exclusions population6 exclusions population6 exclusions7 population6

2005/06 7 0.04 25 0.34 0 0 30 0.13 2006/07 0 0.00 20 0.27 8— 8— 20 0.08 2007/08 8— 8— 26 0.34 8— 8— 30 0.13 2008/09 8— 8— 5 0.11 0 0 10 0.04 2009/10 8— 8— 23 0.27 0 0 30 0.10 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes city technology colleges and academes (including all-through academes). 3 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools. Excludes general hospital schools. 4 Figures are as confirmed by local authorities as part of a data checking exercise. 5 Includes local authorities in inner and outer London. 6 The number of permanent exclusions expressed as a percentage of the number (headcount of) pupils (excluding dually registered pupils) in each year. 7 London numbers and totals for all school types have been rounded to the nearest10. There may be discrepancies between totals and the sum of constituent parts. 8 Data have been suppressed to protect confidentiality Source: School Census Maintained primary, state-funded secondary and special schools1,2,3 number and percentage of fixed period exclusions by type of school, Hackney local authority and London. 2005/06 to 2009/10 London4 Maintained primary1 State-funded secondary1,2 Special3 Maintained primary, state-funded secondary and special schools1,2,3 No. of fixed %ofthe No. of fixed %ofthe No. of fixed %ofthe No. of fixed %ofthe period school period school period school period school exclusions5 population6 exclusions5 population6 exclusions5 population6 exclusions5 population6

2005/067 n/a n/a 40,210 9.16 n/a n/a n/a n/a 2006/07 6,880 1.10 44,000 9.99 2,900 24.88 53,780 4.98 2007/08 6,410 1.02 39,590 8.95 2,560 22.31 48,560 4.49 2008/09 5,560 0.88 39,530 8.85 2,280 19.52 47,380 4.34 2009/10 5,210 0.81 37,500 8.31 2,140 18.09 44,850 4.05

Hackney Maintained primary1 State-funded secondary1,2 Special3 Maintained primary, state-funded secondary and special schools1,2,3 No. of fixed %ofthe No. of fixed %ofthe No. of fixed %ofthe No. of fixed %ofthe period school period school period school period school exclusions population6 exclusions population6 exclusions population6 exclusions5 population6

2005/067 n/a n/a 887 11.97 n/a n/a n/a n/a 2006/07 334 1.87 884 11.97 31 10.10 1,250 4.88 2007/08 356 2.01 853 11.08 50 17.61 1,260 4.91 2008/09 334 1.88 990 12.27 46 16.20 1,370 5.25 2009/10 386 2.14 1,383 16.17 42 14.84 1,810 6.73 n/a = not available—no exclusions collected for schools of this type. 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes city technology colleges and academies (including all-through academies}, 3 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools. Excludes general hospital schools. 4 Includes local authorities in inner and outer London. 5 London numbers and totals for all school types have been rounded to the nearest 10. There may be discrepancies between totals and the sum of constituent parts. 6 The number of fixed period exclusions expressed as a percentage of the number (headcount) of pupils (excluding dually registered pupils) in each year. 7 For the 2005/06 school year, information on fixed period exclusions from secondary schools, CTCs and academies was collected for the first time via the School Census (the Termly Exclusions Survey has bean discontinued). From2006/07, the coverage was extended to include primary and special schools. Source: School Census 41W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 42W

Pupils: Disadvantaged Catshill First School Catshill Middle School Sajid Javid: To ask the Secretary of State for Chadsgrove School Education how many pupils have attracted payment of Charford First School the pupil premium in (a) Bromsgrove constituency and Clent Parochial Primary School (b) Worcestershire since its inception. [115270] Crown Meadow First School & Nursery Dodford First School Sarah Teather: The Pupil Premium was introduced in Fairfield First School April 2011. Pupil Premium funding is provided to schools which have on roll pupils known to be eligible for free Finstall First School school meals (the deprivation premium); children in Hagley Catholic High School care who have been continuously looked after for at Hagley Primary School least six months (the looked after child premium); and Haybridge High School and Sixth Form children whose parents are serving in the armed forces Hollywood, the Coppice Primary School (the service child premium). Holywell Primary and Nursery School In the 2011-12 financial year 1,170 pupils in Bromsgrove Hunters Hill Technology College were eligible for either the deprivation premium or Lickey End First School service child premium. It is not possible to identify, at Lickey Hills Primary School constituency level, the number of pupils recorded as Meadows First School being in care or recorded in the alternative provision census. Millfields First School North Bromsgrove High School The number of pupils eligible for the pupil premium in 2012-13 has not yet been confirmed but the provisional Parkside Middle School estimate is that 1,820 pupils will be eligible for the Rigby Hall Day Special School deprivation premium or the service child premium in Romsley St Kenelm’s C of E Primary School Bromsgrove. This estimate is based on January 2011 Sidemoor First School school census data and data for pupils eligible for FSM South Bromsgrove Community High School since 2006. It reflects the decision to extend eligibility St Andrew’s C of E First School for the deprivation premium to those eligible for FSM St John’s C of E Foundation Middle School in the previous six years. St Peter’s Catholic First School In the 2011-12 financial year, 9,820 pupils were eligible Stoke Prior First School for the pupil premium in Worcestershire. The provisional estimate on the same basis as that for Bromsgrove for Tardebigge C of E First School the 2012-13 financial year is that 13,660 pupils in Waseley Hills High School and Sixth Form Centre Worcestershire will be eligible for the pupil premium. Woodrush Community High School These figures include pupils eligible for the deprivation Wythall, Meadow Green Primary premium, the service child premium and the looked The number of pupils eligible for the pupil premium after child premium. in 2012-13 has not yet been confirmed. The actual number of pupils eligible for the pupil School Milk premium in the 2012-13 financial year will be confirmed shortly. Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Sajid Javid: To ask the Secretary of State for what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State Education which schools in Bromsgrove constituency for Health on the potential effects on staff in each educational setting of the Department of Health’s have received funding from the pupil premium. [115271] consultation on the Next Steps for Nursery Milk. [115735] Sarah Teather: The pupil premium was introduced in April 2011. Pupil premium funding is provided to schools Sarah Teather [holding answer 6 July 2012]: The which have on roll pupils known to be eligible for free Department of Health has discussed the proposals set school meals (the deprivation premium); children in out in the Next Steps for Nursery Milk consultation care who have been continuously looked after for at with the Department. One of the purposes of the least six months (the looked after child premium); and consultation is to explore three different options for children whose parents are serving in the armed forces reforming the operation of the scheme, looking at where (the service child premium). it could be made more efficient and improving its value In Bromsgrove the following 39 schools received the for money, while ensuring that all children under five deprivation premium in the 2011-12 financial year. It is attending a child care setting for more than two hours a not possible to identify which schools received the day continue to be entitled to receive free milk. To service child premium or looked after child premium. explore these issues fully the Department of Health Alvechurch C of E Middle School will, in parallel with the public consultation, be asking Aston Fields Middle School all child care providers currently registered with the Beaconside Primary and Nursery School scheme to complete a simple survey about how the scheme works for them now and how potential changes Belbroughton C of E Primary School and Nursery might affect them and the children they care for. The Beoley First School results of this survey will inform further detailed Blackwell First School development of the options. 43W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 44W

Schools: Finance of changes in pupil numbers. They will also reflect the impact of some local authorities redistributing Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for mainstreamed grants in financial year 2011-12. Education (1) how many and what proportion of schools The higher proportion of secondary schools seeing had (a) lower, (b) equal and (c) higher total revenue in decreases in revenue funding compared to primary is in the 2011-12 academic year than in the 2010-11 academic part a reflection of the lower level of FSM registration, year; [107062] and therefore pupil premium, in secondary schools (2) for how many and what proportion of schools compared to primary schools. Extending eligibility for pupil premium allocation was (a) less than, (b) equal the premium in 2012-13 to those eligible for FSM at any to and (c) more than the reduction in their core budgets. point in the last six years will address this differential. [107061] There is also a minimum funding guarantee in place Mr Gibb: The following tables set out the changes in which will ensure that no school will receive a reduction funding between 2010-11 and 2011-12 financial years. in its budget of more than 1.5% per pupil. The pupil Most of the changes set out in these tables are a result premium is entirely in addition to this.

Number and percentage of schools experiencing the following changes between financial years Number of primary Percentage of Number of Percentage of 2010-11 and 2011-12: schools primary schools secondary schools secondary schools

An increase in revenue funding before pupil 10,071 60.6 1,241 45.9 premium added Equal revenue funding before pupil premium 0 0.0 0 0.0 added A decrease in revenue funding before pupil 6,551 39.4 1,461 54.1 premium added Total schools 16,622 100.0 2,702 100.0

Of schools that saw a decrease in their revenue funding before the pupil premium is added, the number and percentage experiencing the Number of primary Percentage of Number of Percentage of following changes in 2011-12: schools primary schools secondary schools secondary schools

A pupil premium allocation less than their 4,691 71.6 1,165 79.7 revenue funding reduction A pupil premium allocation equal to their 0 0.0 0 0.0 revenue funding reduction A pupil premium allocation more than their 1,860 28.4 296 20.3 revenue funding reduction Total schools: 6,551 100.0 1,461 100.0

The data above is taken from section 251 budget returns Teachers: Pay for 2010-11 and 2011-12 (all budget share and pupil premium data), and the 2010-11 consistent financial reporting (CFR) data (2010-11 grants data). It compares 2010-11 budget share plus grants to 2011-12 budget Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for share and pupil premium data. (Since grants were separate Education how many and what proportion of teachers in 2010-11 but mainstreamed into school budgets in 2011- in (a) academies and (b) maintained schools received 12, they must be included in 2010-11 to get a meaningful an allowance in addition to their basic salary in each of comparison. This analysis uses CFR lines 104, 105, the last three years; and what the average size of such 114 and 115 as an indication of schools’ grants income allowances was. [114132] in 2010-11.) This analysis covers all maintained primary and secondary schools (including those middle deemed in Mr Gibb: The following table provides the number both phases) which are present on all of the three data and percentage of regular qualified teachers in local sources, and open throughout both FY 2010-11 and FY authority maintained schools and Academies recorded 2011-12. It includes sixth form and early years funding. as receiving an additional allowance and the average Figures given are changes in absolute funding, unadjusted amount of those allowances. Comparable figures are for pupil number changes. not available for earlier years.

Qualified regular1 teachers in local authority maintained schools and academies receiving additional allowances2; November 2010 and 2011, England

Local authority maintained schools Academies

Teachers Percentage Allowance Teachers Percentage Allowance

November 2010 148,730 33 4,340 7,350 35 5,160 45W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 46W

Qualified regular1 teachers in local authority maintained schools and academies receiving additional allowances2; November 2010 and 2011, England Local authority maintained schools Academies Teachers Percentage Allowance Teachers Percentage Allowance

November 2011 127,360 32 4,060 33,810 42 5,060 1 Teachers with a contract of 28 days or more. 2 Includes teachers receiving teaching and learning responsibility payments, special educational needs allowances, recruitment and retention incentives and benefits or any other one-off allowances. GTC fee allowances are excluded. Note: Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Source : School Workforce Census

Further information about the proportion of teachers Mr Prisk: While the Office for National Statistics receiving an allowance by type of school and allowance holds information on the number of companies in these is available in table 7a of the School Workforce in areas (on the Inter-departmental Business Register), England Statistical First Release, November 2011 which they do not have the information to determine how is available at the following link: many of the shareholders of these companies are employees. http://www.education.gov.uk/researchandstatistics/statistics/ allstatistics/a00205723/school-workforce-in-england- Credit Cards provisional-nov-2011 George Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions (a) he and (b) Ministers in his Department have had with lenders on the level of interest charged on credit cards. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS [114113]

Business: Greater London Norman Lamb: None recently. Consumer credit regulation is designed to support people’s access to Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, credit, ensure fair treatment for consumers from lenders Innovation and Skills how many businesses in (a) and provide safeguards to protect vulnerable people, Bexleyheath and Crayford, (b) the London borough of particularly those at risk of falling into financial difficulty. Bexley and (c) Greater London are owned solely by As set out in our November 2011 response to the women. [115877] consumer credit and personal insolvency review, the Government see no case for intervening on interest Mr Prisk: There is no information available on the rates on credit and store cards—the evidence shows that number of businesses owned solely by women. However, to do so would do more harm than good, potentially we can estimate the number of majority women-led cutting off some consumers from an important source businesses and the number of self-employed women. of mainstream credit. Other measures, such as the five rights for credit and store card users, which took effect The BIS Small Business Survey asks about the gender at the end of 2010, have already delivered tangible composition of the management team of small and benefits to consumers. These rights include: medium-sized enterprises (SMEs). From this we estimate there were 115,000 majority women-led SMEs in London Right to repay: consumers’ repayments will always be put against the highest rate debt first. at the start of 2011. No comparable information is available for either Bexleyheath and Crayford or the Right to reject: consumers will be given more time to reject increases in their interest rate or their credit limit. London borough of Bexley due to the small sample size of the survey. Right to information: consumers at risk of financial difficulties will be given guidance on the consequences of paying back too The estimated number of self-employed women in little; and all consumers will be given clear information on increases the London borough of Bexley and the Greater London in their interest rate or their credit limit including the right region is provided in the following table. to reject. Table 1: Number of self-employed women aged 16 to 64 years In addition, consumers who are at risk of financial Estimated number of self-employed difficulties are protected through a ban on increases in Area womenaged16to64years their credit limit as well as the ban on increases in their interest rate, and card companies have been working Bexleyheath and Crayford 1— with debt advice agencies to agree new ways they will London borough of Bexley 3,000 provide targeted support to consumers at risk to help Greater London 175,500 improve their situation before they are in too deep. 1 Not available, due to small sample size. Source: Annual Population Survey, Office for National Statistics (October 2010 to September English Language: Education 2011). Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Cooperatives: Greater London Business, Innovation and Skills (1) which institutions (a) he and (b) his officials met in each quarter of the Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, last 12 months to discuss a strategy on the future shape Innovation and Skills how many employee-owned and content for English for speakers of other languages companies are registered in (a) the London borough of qualifications in the UK; and on what dates such Bexley and (b) Greater London. [115878] meetings took place; [116117] 47W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 48W

(2) with which English for speakers of other Mr Gyimah: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, languages qualifications providers (a) he and (b) his Innovation and Skills how much will be spent on (a) officials met in the last (i) three and (ii) six months to bursaries, (b) fee waivers, (c) discounted student discuss a strategy on the future shape and content for accommodation, (d) free foundation years and (e) ESOL qualifications in the UK. [116118] other measures under the National Scholarship Programme in 2012-13. [115908] Mr Hayes: The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Mr Willetts: The National Scholarship Programme Twickenham (Vince Cable), and I meet regularly with (NSP) is designed to help people of all ages whose representatives from the further education sector to family income is no greater than £25,000 per annum. discuss a wide range of issues, including those relating Higher education institutions set their own criteria, to English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL). based on their own priorities, for determining entitlement The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and to an award from among this broad group of people. Skills met with the chair and CEO of the Office of Institutions will offer a range of support from a menu Qualifications and Examinations Regulation (Ofqual) which includes tuition fee waivers or discounts, subsidised in mid-June 2012. The subject of ESOL was briefly accommodation and other institutional support, and a touched upon. Officials in BIS are currently working cash bursary of up to £1,000. The minimum level for an closely with Ofqual and the Skills Funding Agency who award is set at £3,000 for each eligible full-time student. are ensuring that the views of key stakeholders such as Part-time students studying to a minimum intensity of ESOL awarding organisations, further education colleges 25% receive a pro-rata award. Universities and colleges and training organisations are being gathered and can use their match funding to either increase the considered in developing a strategy on the future shape number of awards available, or the value of an award. and content for ESOL qualifications in the UK for Higher education institutions and further education 2013/14 and beyond. colleges with access agreements provided the Office for Fair Access (OFA) with estimates of how much they Higher Education: Scholarships expect to spend in each of these areas under the NSP. The breakdown was published by the OFA in December Mr Gyimah: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 and is given in the following table. Business, Innovation and Skills how many students will No data is available yet for institutions without access participate in the National Scholarship Programme in agreements who have taken up the option of participating 2012-13. [115907] in the programme. Estimated expenditure under National Scholarship Programme in Mr Willetts: The National Scholarship Programme is 2012-13 designed to help people of all ages whose family income £ million is no greater than £25,000 per annum. Higher education institutions set their own criteria for determining entitlement Fee waivers 52.9 to an award from among this broad group of people. Subsidised accommodation 19.6 Institutions will offer a range of support from a menu Bursaries and scholarships 17.7 which includes tuition fee waivers or discounts, subsidised Free foundation years 1.0 accommodation and other institutional support, and a NSP choice/institutional funds not 7.7 cash bursary of up to £1,000. yet allocated1 All institutions that intend to charge more than the Total 99.0 basic rate for tuition from 2012 are required to participate 1 Some institutions are offering a choice of financial support to in the programme and contribute match funding which students under the National Scholarship Programme. In addition, a small number are still in the process of finalising their financial they will use either to increase the number of awards support arrangements under the NSP. available, or the value of an award. Universities are responsible for advertising their criteria and making the Mr Gyimah: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, awards. Innovation and Skills how much will be distributed to In the first year, the Government will contribute £50 students to each higher education institution under the million towards the NSP with the minimum level for an National Scholarship Programme in 2012-13. [115909] award set at £3,000 for each eligible full-time student. That would mean around 17,000 students would benefit. Mr Willetts: In 2012-13, the Government will contribute Of course the actual number is likely to be larger than £50 million towards the National Scholarship Programme this when institutions’ match funding is taken into with the minimum level for an award set at £3,000 for account as well as awards made to students studying each eligible full-time student. Part-time students studying part-time. By 2014/15 when the programme is fully to a minimum intensity of 25% receive a pro-rata award. operational, the Government’s contribution to the National The Higher Education Funding Council for England Scholarship Programme will be three times higher and, publishes the allocation for each institution from the with match funding, up to 100,000 students a year Government’s contribution to the National Scholarship could be supported. Programme. This information can be found at: We have said that we intend to listen carefully to http://www.hefce.ac.uk/whatwedo/wp/ feedback we receive and look at the data that can tell us currentworktowidenparticipation/ how effective the programme is, so that we can learn nationalscholarshipprogramme/ lessons and make changes as necessary.We have reconvened In addition, universities and colleges will match fund the expert group that helped us with the initial design to the Government’s contribution either to increase the advise us on how best to proceed. number of awards available, or the value of an award. 49W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 50W

Mr Gyimah: To ask the Secretary of State for Total value of Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has Number of retention retention payments made of the average amount paid to students from the Agency payments (£000) National Scholarship Programme in 2012-13. [115910] Advantage West Midlands 18 726 East of England 16 632 Mr Willetts: The Government has made no estimate Development Agency of the average value of an award. East Midlands 15 614 The National Scholarship Programme (NSP) is designed Development Agency to benefit students whose family income is no greater North West Regional 14 733 than £25,000 per annum. Higher education institutions Development Agency set their own criteria for determining entitlement to an One North East 15 721 award from among this broad group of people. South East Regional 9 343 Development Agency In the first year, the Government will contribute £50 South West Regional 20 886 million towards the NSP with the minimum level for an Development Agency award set at £3,000 for each eligible full-time student. Yorkshire Forward 17 656 Part-time students studying to a minimum intensity of London Development 00 25% receive a pro-rata award. Universities and colleges Agency can use their match funding to either increase the number of awards available, or the value of an award. The Government has no information on the number of The bonuses paid to senior directors in 2009/10, awards likely to be made by each participating institution. 2010/11 and 2011/12 are set out in the agencies’ annual The Higher Education Funding Council for England reports and accounts for those years. Following closure informs us that this information is likely to be available of the agencies BIS has received records from each but early next year. it would be disproportionately expensive to establish the number of bonuses, if any, paid to junior staff in Mr Gyimah: To ask the Secretary of State for that period. Business, Innovation and Skills how many students at At the East of England Development Agency, two each higher education institution will participate in the separate ex gratia payments of £500 each were paid to National Scholarship Programme in 2012-13. [115911] almost all members of staff (barring Executive Directors) during 2011/12. These payments totalled £51,000; the Mr Willetts: The Government has no information on individual payments were made on 31 August and the likely number of students who will receive an award 30 December 2011 and were paid to a total of 66 staff, from the National Scholarship Programme (NSP) at although not all staff received both payments. These each participating institution. The Higher Education payments were outside the agency’s pay remit and not Funding Council for England informs us that this approved by BIS. They were deemed “irregular”expenditure information is likely to be available early next year. and the agency’s 2011/12 accounts have received a qualified The NSP will benefit eligible students from low income audit opinion from the Comptroller and Auditor General families entering higher education from autumn 2012. as a result. It is for higher education institutions to set their own criteria, according to their own priorities, for determining entitlement to an award. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Each eligible full-time student who meets the institution’s Innovation and Skills on what date remuneration payments criteria will receive a minimum level of award set at to each board member of each regional development £3,000. Eligible part-time students, studying to a minimum agency (RDA) will cease; and how much will be paid to intensity of 25%, receive a pro-rata award. RDA board members in each month in 2012. [116090] In the first year, the Government will contribute £50 million towards the NSP. That would mean around 17,000 full-time students would benefit. By 2014/15 when the programme is fully operational, the Government’s Mr Prisk: Remuneration payments to RDA board contribution to the NSP will be three times higher and, members ceased on the abolition of the RDAs and the with match funding, up to 100,000 students a year end of June 2012. The remuneration reports in the could be supported. recently published RDA accounts for the financial year 2011/12, available at: Regional Development Agencies: Pay http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/economic-development/ regional-support/rda-reports-accounts Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, show the serving board members and their remuneration. Innovation and Skills how many (a) retention payments The board members serving from January 2012 received and (b) bonuses were given to staff at each regional 1/12th of their annual remuneration shown in these development agency in each of the last three years; and accounts in each of the months from January to June what the cost was in each case. [116089] 2012. In addition, the chairs of SEEDA and EEDA were due contractual compensation of £15,000 to 20,000 Mr Prisk: The number of retention payments and and £25,000 to 30,000 respectively in June 2012. These total cost at each regional development agency in the figures are subject to audit and will be confirmed in last three years to 30 June 2012 is shown in the following RDA accounts for the period to 30 June 2012 which are table: expected to be laid before Parliament later this year. 51W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 52W

Teachers: Languages which these remedies have been sought; and what the value was of the money received by his Department Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for from Atos through such financial remedies in (i) 2009, Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has (ii) 2010, (iii) 2011 and (iv) 2012 to date. [116053] made of the effects on the recruitment and retention of English teachers resulting from the time taken to bring Chris Grayling: There are a range of financial remedies forward a strategy on the future design and content of available within the contract to address service level English for speakers of other languages qualifications. failure, however this is a matter between the Department [115526] of Work and Pensions and its supplier Atos Healthcare. Financial remedies may or may not be imposed Mr Hayes: English for Speakers of Other Languages depending on the reason for failure. This is however (ESOL) Adult Basic Skills Certificates at Entry, Level 1 commercial in confidence between the DWP and its and Level 2 remain in place for 2012/13. This Department supplier as is the total cost of the financial remedies is currently considering the future shape and content levied. for ESOL qualifications for 2013/14 and beyond. This includes the intention to consult with key stakeholders including associations who represent ESOL teachers. Disposable Income

Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Work WORK AND PENSIONS and Pensions what estimate he has made of the level of disposable household income of (a) pensioners and Atos Healthcare (b) families with children in (i) Coventry, (ii) Coventry north-east constituency, (iii) the west midlands and (iv) Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for England in each of the last five years. [115821] Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the Atos Healthcare average clearance (a) target and (b) performance against that target in (i) 2008, (ii) Steve Webb: Estimates on disposable income are published in the Households Below Average Income 2009, (iii) 2010, (iv) 2011 and (v) 2012 to date. [116052] series. The latest year of data which are available is for Chris Grayling: The contracted service level with 2010-11. The smallest geographical breakdown available Atos Healthcare for ESA claims is to clear medical is at Government office region level. Therefore, information assessments within an actual average clearance target is not available for (i) the city of Coventry or (ii) (AACT) of 35 working days. Coventry North East constituency, but is available for The Atos Healthcare average clearance against the (iii) the west midlands Government office region and target for each contractual year is as follows: (iv) England. Three-year averages are used to report regional statistics Number of days as single-year estimates are subject to volatility.

September 2008 to August 2009 43.2 Table 1 shows the median equivalised household income of pensioners in the west midlands and England September 2009 to August 2010 33.1 in 2010-11. Table 2 shows the median equivalised household September 2010 to August 2011 34.6 income of families with children in the west midlands September 2011 to May 2012 (latest 61.3 period figures are available) and England for the same year. Results both Before Housing Costs and After Housing Costs have been Following the Department’s acceptance of Professor provided. Harrington’s recommendations, the introduction of the Measures for pensioners are generally on an After Personal Summary Statement (PSS) had a major affect Housing Costs basis. This is because pensioners are far on the AACT for WCA clearance. more likely to own their homes outright and so receive In the past year, there has been considerable financial value from housing, without having to pay for rent or investment in training health care professionals to deliver mortgage payments out of their current income. the Harrington recommendations. However, the intense Measures for children are generally on a Before Housing training period for the introduction of the PSS had an Costs basis. The targets set out in the Child Poverty impact upon the head of work. Act, the broader set of income measures in the Child Atos Healthcare’s ability to deliver a service within Poverty Strategy and international comparisons are the AACT was also impacted by the service volumes for calculated this way. When considering the living standards this period which were significantly above departmental of children, measures After Housing Costs can forecasts; in addition Atos had recruitment demands/ underestimate the true standard of living as a family challenges. These issues collectively resulted in an increase may make a choice to spend more on rent or a mortgage in the AACT. to attain a higher standard of accommodation. DWP and Atos Healthcare are now working very Table 1: Median equivalised household income of pensioners in the west midlands closely to improve capacity and productivity through and England, Before and After Housing Costs in 2010-11 prices the DWP Executive Management Board. £ per week West midlands England Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Three year and Pensions pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member period BHC AHC BHC AHC for Brighton Pavilion of 2 July 2012, Official Report, column 426W, on Atos, what financial remedies are 2006-07 to 362 353 362 351 2008-09 available; if he will publish a note of each occasion on 53W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 54W

Table 1: Median equivalised household income of pensioners in the west midlands The relevant figures can be found in Table 2a in the and England, Before and After Housing Costs in 2010-11 prices spreadsheet at the following link: £ per week http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/esa_wca/ West midlands England esa_wca_24012012_tables.xls Three year period BHC AHC BHC AHC Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007-08 to 368 360 373 359 Work and Pensions with reference to the answer of 19 2009-10 March 2012, Official Report, column 492W, on 2008-09 to 367 353 378 359 2010-11 employment and support allowance (ESA), how many people ceased receiving ESA as a result of the Welfare Table 2: Median equivalised household income of families with children in the Reform Act 2012. [115283] west midlands and England, Before and After Housing Costs in 2010-11 prices £ per week Chris Grayling: The information requested is not West midlands England available. Please note that the most recent national Three year period BHC AHC BHC AHC statistics for the ESA/IB client group is for November 2011 and the latest working-age ESA/IB early estimate 2006-07 to 364 308 399 329 is for April 2012. The latest information on early estimates 2008-09 can be found at the following link: 2007-08 to 364 305 401 329 2009-10 http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=early_ests 2008-09 to 360 300 399 325 2010-11 Employment Schemes Notes: 1. These statistics are based on the Households Below Average Income (HBAI) series, sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS). This uses : To ask the Secretary of State for Work disposable household income, adjusted using modified OECD equivalisation and Pensions with reference to the answer of 16 January factors for household size and composition, as an income measure as a proxy 2012, Official Report, column 599W, on the Work for standard of living. 2. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. This programme, if he will place in the Library the most includes earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, recent indicative volumes for claimants entering the income from occupational and private pensions, investment income and other Work programme in each of the next four years; what sources. Income tax payments, national insurance contributions, council tax/ domestic rates and some other payments are deducted from incomes. the reasons are for any changes since he last published 3. Figures have been presented on a Before Housing Cost and an After the forecasts; and if he will make a statement. [115969] Housing Cost basis. For Before Housing Costs, housing costs (such as rent, water rates, mortgage interest payments, buildings insurance payments and ground rent and service charges) are not deducted from income, while for Chris Grayling: The Work programme attachment After Housing Costs they are. profiles were placed in the House of Commons Library 4. Incomes are presented in 2010-11 prices and have been rounded to the on 5 July 2012—Dep. 2012-1134. nearest pound. 5. We use Households Below Average Income data to provide estimates of The Department has committed to reviewing profiles average incomes. However, the sample size of this survey is not sufficient to on a six-monthly basis in response to the Office for provide estimates for small areas such as those requested. 6. Analysis has been carried out based on equivalised household incomes. This Budget Responsibility (OBR) forecasting cycle. Changes takes an adult couple with no children as the reference point. For example, the to the OBR forecasts have a direct knock-on impact on process of equivalisation would adjust the income of a single pensioner the forecasts of benefit on-flows, off-flows and durations. upwards, so that we can use income to directly compare their standard of living with a working-age couple without children. Work programme volumes can therefore be subject to 7. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a degree both upward and downward revision over time depending of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will on the prevailing economic forecasts. be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. 8. The reference period for HBAI figures is the financial year. Employment Schemes: Pay

Employment and Support Allowance Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work amount of money companies (a) nationally and (b) in and Pensions with reference to the answer of 21 March Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill constituency have 2012, Official Report, column 706W,on Atos Healthcare, saved as a result of not paying the minimum wage to on how many occasions a Jobcentre Plus decision-maker people participating in the Work Programme. [115492] did not follow the advice of an Atos-approved healthcare professional when making a decision on the eligibility Chris Grayling: Work experience undertaken as part for employment and support allowance in each month of the Work Programme does not fulfil a role which since May 2010; and what proportion of the total would otherwise be advertised as a job vacancy. No number of decisions made in each month these figures estimate of savings has therefore been made and would represent. [115255] clearly be inappropriate given the aims of work experience, which is designed to help participants by enhancing Chris Grayling: The information provided in the answer their employment prospects and developing skills and of 21 March 2012 is consistent with the January 2012 disciplines associated with a normal working environment. Official Statistics release. Table 2a in this publication provides the total number of initial assessments and Employment Schemes: Scotland their final outcomes by month. By comparing the totals for each month with those figures originally provided in Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for the previous answer, it is possible to calculate the proportion Work and Pensions how many constituents from of all outcomes where the Atos recommendation differs Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill have participated in from the Decision Maker’s decision. the Work Programme since its inception. [115493] 55W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 56W

Chris Grayling: Statistics on how many constituents The smallest geographical breakdown available for from Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill have participated the overall numbers in poverty is at Government office in the Work Programme since its inception are available region level. Therefore, information is not available for on the Department’s website at: (a) the city of Coventry or (b) Coventry North East http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=tabtool constituency, but is available for (c) the West Midlands Guidance for users is available at: Government Office Region and (d) England. http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/tabtools/guidance.pdf Three-year averages are used to report regional statistics as single-year estimates are subject to volatility. Housing Benefit: Scotland The latest year of data which are available is 2010-11. The following table shows the number of pensioners Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for living in households in the west midlands and England Work and Pensions how many people aged under 26 with income below 60% of contemporary median income, years were in receipt of housing benefit in Coatbridge, after housing costs, for three-year periods spanning Chryston and Bellshill constituency in each year from 2006-07 to 2010-11, which is the latest year for which 2007 to 2011. [114886] data are available. Steve Webb: Information is not readily available for Number of pensioners in the west midlands and England in relative low housing benefit recipients aged under 25 at parliamentary income, after housing costs constituency level, and to provide it would incur Number of pensioners living with income disproportionate cost. below 60% of contemporary median, Three year period after housing costs (million) Housing Benefit: Young People West midlands England 2006-07 to 2008-09 0.2 1.7 Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and 2007-08 to 2009-10 0.2 1.6 Pensions if he will estimate the total annual expenditure 2008-09 to 2010-11 0.2 1.5 on housing benefit for people under the age of 25 in Notes: each of the next four financial years. [115265] 1. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income (HBAI) data sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS). This Steve Webb: The information is not available. uses disposable household income, adjusted using modified OECD equivalisation factors for household size and composition, as an Jobseeker’s Allowance: Graduates income measure as a proxy for standard of living. 2. Longer time series and before housing costs data on pensioners is available within chapter 6 of the Households Below Average Income Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for report at: Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=hbai_arc number of people who graduated in (a) 2009, (b) 2010 3. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. and (c) 2011 who are currently claiming jobseekers’ This includes earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, income from occupational and private pensions, investment [115335] allowance. income and other sources. Income tax, payments, national insurance contributions, council tax/domestic rates and some other payments Chris Grayling: The information requested is not are deducted from incomes. available. 4. Figures have been presented on an after housing cost basis. For after housing costs, housing costs are deducted from income. Parliamentary Private Secretaries: Visits Abroad 5. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a degree of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Work non-response. and Pensions if he will list any occasions since May 6. The reference period for HBAI figures is the financial year. 2010 on which his Parliamentary Private Secretary has 7. Numbers of pensioners have been rounded to the nearest hundred travelled overseas with him or on his behalf. [115354] thousand pensioners. The Government wants all pensioners to have a decent Chris Grayling: There has been no such occasion on and secure income in retirement. We have restored the which his Parliamentary Private Secretary has travelled earnings link for the basic state pension and given a overseas with him or on his behalf. triple guarantee that the basic state pension will increase Pensioners: Poverty by the highest of the growth in average earnings, price increases (as measured by the consumer prices index) or Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2.5%. As a result, we estimate that an average person and Pensions if he will estimate the number of pensioners retiring in 2012-13 will receive £15,000 more in basic living in poverty in (a) Coventry, (b) Coventry North state pension income over their retirement than under East constituency, (c) the West Midlands and (d) England the old prices link. in each of the last five years; and what recent steps his We are protecting support for older people such as: Department has taken to tackle pensioner poverty. winter fuel payments; [115970] free bus passes; Steve Webb: Estimates of pensioner poverty are published free television licences for those aged 75 and over; in the Households Below Average Income series. The free eye tests; and most commonly used measure of pensioner poverty relates to those people with income below 60% of free NHS prescription charges. contemporary median income, after housing costs. This We have permanently increased the cold weather payment is often referred to as relative poverty. from £8.50 to £25. 57W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 58W

The Government is also introducing automatic enrolment Plans and options for reprioritisation will not be into workplace pensions. Starting from 2012 all employers published. They should be “live” plans that are reassessed beginning with the largest will be required to enrol all and updated on an ongoing basis. workers eligible for automatic enrolment into a qualifying workplace pension scheme and make a minimum John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work contribution. This is a central element of our strategy and Pensions with reference to the speech by the Chief to reinvigorate private pension saving and aims to harness Secretary to the Treasury of 23 April 2012 at the inertia and bring about a change in peoples’ behaviour Institute for Fiscal Studies, what discussions he has had in saving for retirement. We expect this to lead to between with his Department’s agencies and the non- five million and eight million people newly saving or departmental bodies for which he is responsible on the saving more in all forms of workplace pension schemes. contribution they will make to identifying resource Along with our proposals for reform to the state pension, budget for possible re-prioritisation. [115130] this is a key element in our strategy to prevent pensioner poverty from arising for future generations. Chris Grayling: The Department is working with the The Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Treasury to agree contingency plans as set out in “Improving Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), announced in his spending control”, available at: Budget, on 21 March 2012, that the Government will http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ reform the state pensions system to introduce a single improving_spending_control.pdf tier pension for future pensioners. These reforms will Plans and options for reprioritisation will not be usher in a simpler and fairer system that reduces the published. They should be “live” plans that are reassessed need for means testing and rewards saving. The Government and updated on an ongoing basis. will publish further information about the proposed reforms in a White Paper later in the year. John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions with reference to the speech by the Chief Pensions: Females Secretary to the Treasury of 23 April 2012 at the Institute for Fiscal Studies; when he will make public the areas of Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department’s resource budget he has identified for Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to promote possible re-prioritisation; and when he plans to report the importance of adequate pensions saving to women; to the Work and Pension Select Committee on the and if he will make a statement. [115425] outcome of this exercise. [115150]

Steve Webb: Automatic enrolment will help millions Chris Grayling: The Department is working with the of workers save for their retirement. We estimate 3-4 Treasury to agree contingency plans as set out in “Improving million women will be eligible, with 2-3 million newly Spending Control”, saving or saving more. To support automatic enrolment, we are running an awareness campaign with supporting http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ information that emphasises the importance of saving improving_spending_control_pdf for retirement and outlines the benefits of saving in a workplace pension. This targets women via the use of Scotland appropriate media channels and by working in partnership with trusted brands. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work We have also confirmed that we will introduce a and Pensions what assessment he has made of his simpler, single tier pension for future pensioners set Department’s total spending in Scotland in the latest above the basic level of the means test to better support period for which figures are available. [115413] saving for retirement. A flat-rate single tier pension will deliver improved state pensions for groups such as Chris Grayling: The total amount spent by the women and the self employed. Further detail will be Department in Scotland on benefits in 2010-11 was provided in a White Paper later this year. £13.1 billion. This compares to £139.8 billion in the rest of Great Britain and £152.9 billion in Great Britain Public Expenditure overall. This equates to £2,620 per person in Scotland. This John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work compares to £2,521 in the rest of Great Britain and and Pensions with reference to the speech by the Chief £2,529 in Great Britain overall. Spending per head Secretary to the Treasury of 23 April 2012 at the Institute (capita) in Scotland is 3.9% above spending per head for for Fiscal Studies, what progress his Department has the rest of Great Britain. made on identifying a proportion of its resource budget that can be re-prioritised; what steps he has taken to Social Security Benefits: Gwent identify such funds; and which parts of his Department’s resource budget he has identified as suitable for re-prioritisation. [115129] Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people in Islwyn constituency Chris Grayling: The Department is working with the will be eligible for fewer benefits after the introduction Treasury to agree contingency plans as set out in “Improving of the benefit cap in April 2013. [115706] spending control”, available at: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ Chris Grayling: The information is not available for improving_spending_control.pdf Islwyn constituency. 59W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 60W

Social Security Benefits: Scotland 2012, Official Report, columns 473-74W, on universal credit, how much of his 2014-15 budget he plans to Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for spend on (a) additional benefit spending, (b) additional Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the benefit administration, (c) IT development and total number of people in receipt of each benefit in implementation, (d) communications, (e) staff training, Scotland. [115412] (f) programme management, (g) transitional protection, (h) additional childcare support, (i) implementation Chris Grayling: Statistics on the total number of planning and (j) other items. [116049] people in receipt of each benefit in Scotland are available on the Department’s website at Chris Grayling: Based on current plans the universal http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=tabtool credit programme is forecasting potential expenditure Guidance for users is available at of up to £1.0 billion in 2014-15. http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/tabtools/guidance.pdf IT, developmental and implementation costs have been forecast as £317 million. Staff: Scotland As detailed policy design is still in development it is not possible to provide a further breakdown of this Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for estimate at this stage. Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number of people employed by his Department in Scotland. [115410] Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 13 June Chris Grayling: On 31 March 2012, the Department 2012, Official Report, columns 473-74W, on universal for Work and Pensions employed 10,344 people (9,294 credit, how much of his 2012-13 budget he plans to full-time equivalent staff) in Scotland. spend on (a) IT development and implementation, (b) communications, (c) staff training, (d) programme Universal Credit management, (e) implementation planning and (f) other items. [116050] Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what steps he plans to take to Chris Grayling: The following table provides forecast ensure that one-off bonus and overtime payments are expenditure for the full year 2012-13, based on current not assumed in the calculation of universal credit to be plans/estimates. These forecasts are subject to monthly regular salary payments for the following months until review and will be updated as commercial arrangements the end of the tax year. [115968] are finalised. Full year forecast up to end March 2013 Chris Grayling: Unlike the current system, we want to avoid complicated rules regarding averaging and attribution Expenditure type £ million wherever possible. For these reasons, earnings will usually IT Development Costs 242.34 be based on the actual amounts received in an assessment Staff 70.11 period. Travel 1.51 Earnings taken into account will be net of tax and Accommodation and Estates 0.03 national insurance when determining the level of universal Office Services and expenses 0.03 credit award. We will also deduct 100% of contributions Consultancy and Professional 2.76 to occupational and personal pensions. services General Office expenses 18.38 Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for IS/IT Application Development 51.58 Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 13 June Resource 2012, Official Report, columns 473-44W, on universal Postage and Courier 0.02 credit, how much of his 2013-14 budget he plans to Non cash depreciation 3.69 spend on (a) additional benefit spending, (b) additional Total 390.44 benefit administration, (c) IT development and Notes: implementation, (d) communications, (e) staff training, 1. IT expenditure is predominantly related to the ongoing design/ (f) programme management, (g) transitional protection, build and test of the UC core solution and dependant system changes. (h) additional child care support, (i) implementation 2. Staff costs reflect both staff directly and indirectly engaged in planning and (j) other items. [116048] preparing for the implementation and delivery of universal credit ahead of the pathfinder from April 2013. Chris Grayling: Based on current plans the universal credit programme is forecasting potential expenditure Work Capability Assessment of up to £0.6 billion in 2013-14. IT, development and implementation costs have been Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work forecast as £401 million. and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 14 May 2012, As detailed policy design is still in development it is Official Report, column 227W, on work capability not possible to provide a further breakdown of this assessment independent review, if he will publish estimate at this stage. correspondence between his Department and Professor Malcolm Harrington in relation to his stepping down Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for from the role of independent reviewer of the work Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 13 June capability assessment. [115091] 61W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 62W

Chris Grayling: Professor Harrington was commissioned Chris Grayling: As reported in the previous answer of to undertake a third and final review of the Work 20 February 2012, Official Report, columns 654-55W, Capability Assessment in November 2011. This was the changes introduced on the recommendation of Professor with the expectation that he would publish his final Harrington, although improving the overall process, report before the end of 2012. have had the impact of increasing the time taken to There is no correspondence between the Department complete face to face medical assessments. Considerable and Professor Harrington regarding him “stepping down time and effort has gone into training Atos Healthcare from the role of independent reviewer of the work professionals to deliver the changes introduced. capability assessment.” There are continuing large volumes of cases going through the medical assessment journey. DWP and The Government’s response to Professor Harrington’s Atos Healthcare are working very closely to reduce the second independent review length of the WCA process by improving capacity and http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-review-2011-response.pdf productivity. made it clear that 2012 would be his third and final Average time for WCA customer journey (from time review. We are extremely grateful to Professor Harrington of receipt of ESA 50 to clearance by Atos Healthcare): for the work he has done to date, and look forward to 2011 (July to December only—following the reduction from receiving his third review. 11 to seven Government offices by region)—53.2 working days. Information for 2011 up to and including June was Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work previously provided in the answer of 20 February 2012, and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 16 May 2012, Official Report, columns 654-55W. Official Report, column 226W, on work capability 2012 (January to May inclusive)—64.4 working days. assessment, to which (a) benefit delivery centres and The data supplied are derived from unpublished (b) Atos Healthcare centres Professor Malcolm Harrington management information which was collated for internal made unannounced visits in (i) 2010 and (ii) 2011. departmental use only. The data supplied have not been [115106] quality assured to National Statistics or Official Statistics standard and are subject to change. They should therefore Chris Grayling: During 2010-11, Professor Malcolm be treated with caution. Harrington made two unannounced visits to benefit The average time has been calculated using the Atos centres at Gloucester and Merthyr Tydfil as outlined in Healthcare management information relating to the his Second Independent Review (pp. 24-25). During average time to undertake a work capability assessment 2010, Professor Harrington made unannounced visits as reported against their average actual clearance target to Atos Medical Assessment Centres (MACs) in Balham of 35 days. and Bristol. I can confirm that he made no unannounced The average time is officially calculated using the visits to Atos MACs during 2011. number of working days between a claimant completing the ESA questionnaire and their work capability assessment Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and measured at a regional level rather than nationally and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 14 May 2012, and reported monthly—so in effect the figures provided Official Report, column 227W,on work capability assessment, above are an average of an average of an average. when a successor to Professor Malcolm Harrington will The measurement of the time undertaken to complete be appointed; what the selection criteria will be for the customer journey through to the assessment is appointing a replacement to Professor Harrington; whether heavily reliant on the date which the claimant returns the replacement of Professor Harrington will be appointed their questionnaire. A significant number of claimants by the Secretary of State; whether the post being vacated return their questionnaires after 25 days. by Professor Harrington will be publicly advertised; and what the job specification will be for the role being Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for vacated by Professor Harrington. [115107] Work and Pensions with reference to the answer of 20 February 2012, Official Report, column 666W, on work capability assessment, how many people waited longer Chris Grayling: The Secretary of State for Work and than 13 weeks for a work capability assessment in (a) Pensions is aiming to appoint a successor to Professor 2011 and (b) 2012. [115257] Malcolm Harrington to undertake the fourth independent review of the Work Capability Assessment before the fourth review commences in 2013. Chris Grayling: Information on assessments in December 2011 and in 2012 to date is not available. The Department is currently considering its options Information on assessments between January and for the recruitment of Professor Harrington’s successor November 2011 has not previously been published as and their terms of reference. official statistics. We will consider whether to include these statistics in part of an upcoming statistics release Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work in line with the Code of Practice for Official Statistics. and Pensions with reference to the answer of 20 February 2012, Official Report, columns 654-55W,on employment Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and support allowance: work capability assessment, and Pensions with reference to the answer of 1 March what the average time taken for an employment and 2012, Official Report, column 426W, on work capability support allowance applicant was between completing assessment, how many people have been waiting longer the ESA 50 questionnaire and the work capability than 13 weeks for a work capability assessment since assessment in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012. [115256] completing the ESA 50 questionnaire. [115259] 63W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 64W

Chris Grayling: There are currently 20,759 ESA initial Chris Grayling: Information on assessments in December referrals open and awaiting an assessment that are in 2011 and in 2012 to date is not available. Information excess of 13 weeks from the date that the questionnaire on assessments between January and November 2011 was returned. has not previously been published as official statistics. We will consider whether to include these statistics in Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for part of an upcoming statistics release in line with the Work and Pensions how many people have lodged an Code of Practice for Official Statistics. appeal to a work capability assessment decision but have yet to receive a hearing. [115260] Work Capability Assessment: Appeals

Chris Grayling: The requested information is not Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for available. Work and Pensions with reference to the answer of 12 October 2011, Official Report, column 439W, on work Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for capability assessment: appeals, what the cost to his Work and Pensions with reference to the answer of 20 Department was of appeals made to the work February 2012, Official Report, column 667W, on work capability assessment in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date. capability assessment: Parkinson’s disease, how many [115254] people with (a) Parkinson’s disease, (b) multiple sclerosis, (c) cancer and (d) dementia have had a work Chris Grayling: The cost to the Department for Work capability assessment since October 2008. [115261] Capability Assessment Appeals in financial year 2010-11 was £12,076,455. Chris Grayling: In September 2011, the Department The cost to the Department for Work Capability published the outcomes of work capability assessments, Assessment Appeals in financial year 2011-12 was after the effect of appeals, broken down by medical £15,410,571. condition. The table can be found at the following link: http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/adhoc_analysis/2011/ 110906_wcaresultsbycondition_clean.xls JUSTICE Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 16 May Children: Abuse 2012, Official Report, column 226W, on work capability assessment, what the outcome has been of Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for the monthly monitoring of the targets set for Atos as Justice if he will bring forward legislative proposals to part of the overall employment and support allowance change the sentencing options for criminal neglect of customer journey of 91 days and performance. [115282] children to ensure that what happens to neglectful parents is in the best interests of the child. [115649] Chris Grayling: The performance targets used to monitor the Atos Healthcare performance are set out in Schedule Mr Blunt: The Government has no plans to bring 5 (Service Levels) of the Medical Services contract. An forward legislation in relation to sentencing for child edited copy of the document (DEP2010—1704) is available neglect. The courts have the full range of sentencing in the House of Lords library and can be accessed from options available to them when sentencing for child the following link: neglect and will take into account the best interests of http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/business- the child when determining the appropriate sentence. papers/commons/deposited-papers/?max=100&page=3&y= The sentencing guideline. “Overarching Principles: Assaults 2010&house=2&sort=1&sortasc=False#toggle-1704 on children and Cruelty to a child”, makes clear that The official statistics on ‘Employment and Support the court must strike a balance between the need to Allowance: Work Capability Assessments’ can be accessed reflect the serious view which society takes of the ill- on the DWP website from the following link: treatment of very young children and the need to protect those children, and also the pressures upon immature http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/ index.php?page=esa_wca and inadequate parents attempting to cope with the problems of infancy. In deciding the appropriate sentence The DWP contractual agreement with Atos Healthcare in each case, the judge or magistrate must consider the contains performance service levels (including customer seriousness of the offence and have regard to the purposes service targets) which contain financial remedies where of sentencing, which include rehabilitation as well as there is service level failure, based on pre estimate of punishment and public protection. In considering whether loss to the Department. The contractual performance a custodial sentence is appropriate, any adverse effects of Atos Healthcare is monitored closely by DWP. that the sentence could have on the victim are taken into The imposition of financial remedies is a matter account, including all available information concerning between the Department for Work and Pensions and its the future care of the child, particularly if the offender supplier Atos Healthcare and as such is commercial in is the sole or primary carer of the victim or other confidence. dependants. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work HM Courts and Tribunals Service and Pensions with reference to the answer of 20 February 2012, Official Report, column 655W, on employment Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State and support allowance: work capability assessment, for Justice (1) how many complaints were received by what the average time of the work capability assessment HM Courts and Tribunal Service concerning waiting customer journey was in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date. times for appeals tribunals in the latest period for [115366] which figures are available; [115469] 65W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 66W

(2) what the average waiting time for an appeal the Tribunal Service to deal with appeals to the work tribunal hearing in HM Courts and Tribunal Service capability assessment in each month in (a) 2011 and was in the latest period for which figures are available; (b) 2012 to date. [115318] [115470] (3) what steps HM Courts and Tribunal Service Mr Djanogly: Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals intend to take to tackle backlogs in appeals tribunals. Service (HMCTS) hears appeals against Department [115471] for Work and Pensions decisions on entitlement to employment and support allowance (ESA) (decisions in Mr Djanogly: These questions have been interpreted which the work capability assessment is a key factor) as relating to the First-tier Tribunal—Social Security rather than appeals against work capability assessment and Child Support (SSCS). decisions themselves. A unified administrative complaints procedure for It is not possible to identify how many staff deal Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) specifically with ESA appeals. The following table shows was launched in October 2011. HMCTS has received 88 the number of administrative staff employed in relation complaints concerning waiting times for the SSCS Tribunal to the Social Security and Child Support (SSCS) Tribunal in the period October 2011 to March 2012, the latest as at the end of each month between January 2011 and date for which information is available (this data is May 2012, (the latest date for which figures have been taken from management information). Over the same published). The tribunal hears appeals on a range of period HMCTS disposed of 214,200 SSCS appeals. benefits, of which ESA is one. In the period January to March 2012 (the most recent Of the 988 staff in post as at 31 May 2012, 807 were period for which statistics have been published) the permanent staff and 181 staff were on fixed term contracts. average waiting time for an SSCS Tribunal hearing was Social Security and Child Support Tribunal staff numbers January 2011-May 23.2 weeks, down from 23.9 weeks in the period July to 2012 September 2011. Number of Staff1

HMCTS has continued to respond strongly to the January 2011 958 significant increase in appeal cases received by the SSCS February 2011 958 Tribunal. It is working hard to increase the capacity of March 2011 984 the SSCS Tribunal and reduce waiting times. It has April 2011 1,013 implemented a range of measures which include recruiting May 2011 1,029 more judges and medical panel members; increasing June 2011 1,030 administrative resources and streamlining processes; July 2011 1,045 securing additional hearing venues across the country; August 2011 1,061 increasing the number of cases listed in each Tribunal September 2011 1,074 session; running double shifts in its largest processing October 2011 1,019 centre; running Saturday sittings in some of the busiest November 2011 1,014 venues; reviewing all information for appellants to ensure December 2011 1,010 that it is as clear and comprehensive as possible, and January 2012 1,002 setting up a customer contact centre to deal with telephone February 2012 996 inquiries. March 2012 1,010 All of this is having a positive effect. The total April 2012 996 number of disposals has increased significantly from May 2012 988 279,000 in 2009-10 to 380,000 in 2010-11 and 433,600 1 The data are taken from management information. The figures quoted refer to appeals in 2011-12, with the capacity for half a million the total number of people employed and includes those who work part-time or on a full-time basis and on temporary or fixed-term contacts. Some of the staff disposals in 2012-13. Perhaps most notably, the Tribunal included may work in multi-jurisdiction a I centres dealing with other work as disposed of more appeals than it received in every well as social security and child support appeals. month between January 2011 and February 2012 The Social Security and Child Support Tribunal disposed (14 consecutive months) and the caseload outstanding of 433,600 appeals in 2011-12. This is a 14% increase fell by 25% in 2011-12 to reach 145,000 on 31 March when compared to 2010-11 (380,200). 2012. The average waiting time has stabilised nationally, and is beginning to fall across many venues. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work is ongoing to increase the Tribunal’s capacity Justice with reference to the answer of 13 December further, including the recruitment of additional judges 2011, Official Report, column 724W,on Tribunals Service: and medical members; review and continuous improvement work capability assessment, which tribunal centres (a) of administrative processes both internally and between currently operate a six-day week to hear appeals against HMCTS and the Department for Work and Pensions; the work capability assessment (WCA), (b) are planning including implementation of Section 102 of the Welfare to operate a six-day week to hear appeals against the Reform Act 2012 which creates the opportunity for WCA, (c) currently operate a seven-day week to hear additional improvements to business processes. appeals against the WCA and (d) are planning to operate a six-day week to hear appeals against the Work Capability Assessment: Appeals WCA. [115319]

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Djanogly: Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Justice with reference to the answer of 31 January 2012, Service (HMCTS) hears appeals against Department Official Report, column 624W, on work capability for Work and Pensions decisions on entitlement to assessments, appeals, how many staff were employed by employment and support allowance (ESA) (decisions in 67W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 68W which the work capability assessment is a key factor) Section 31 of the Airports Act 1986 provides the rather than appeals against work capability assessment Secretary of State for Transport, my right hon. Friend decisions themselves. the Member for Putney (Justine Greening), with powers HMCTS has continued to respond strongly to the to introduce TDRs relating to airports on the UK, significant increase in appeal cases received by the First-tier provided that they comply with EU law. Prior to the Tribunal—Social Security and Child Support (SSCS). introduction of such TDRs, the Secretary of State must It is working hard to increase the capacity of the SSCS consult the CAA who in turn must consult the aviation Tribunal and reduce waiting times. The SSCS Tribunal industry. disposed of 433,600 appeals in 2011-12. This is a 14% increase in output when compared to 2010-11 (380,200) Aviation: EU Action and 56% more than 2009-10 (279,300). All SSCS hearing venues hear appeals on the range of Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for benefit types, including ESA. Saturday sittings are used Transport whether the proposed new EU regulation on on a flexible basis in a number of hearing venues to the allocation of slots at EU airports would require meet particular increases in demand for hearings. Appellants airlines to include in their published accounts the are asked whether they are willing to attend a hearing market value of the slots that they hold. [115655] on a Saturday before their case is listed and the hearing will proceed exactly as it would on a weekday. Mrs Villiers: The European Commission’s proposal The following hearing venues are currently running to recast the EU regulation on the common rules for the Saturday sittings: Sutton, Bexleyheath, London (Fox allocation of slots at EU airports does not include such Court), Cardiff, Leeds, Enfield, Basildon, Bedford and a requirement. Derby. The Newcastle and Darlington hearing venues will BMI run sittings on Saturdays from July 2012. Saturday sittings have previously been held in Wrexham, Langstone, Plymouth, Dundee, Hamilton, Wolverhampton, Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Leicester, Nottingham and Liverpool. (1) what discussions she has had with the (a) Civil Aviation Authority and (b) Office of Fair Trading on There are currently no sittings held on a Sunday and the sale of British Midland International; and who she there are no current plans to extend sittings to seven (i) met and (ii) spoke to on each such occasion; [110758] days a week. (2) what discussions she has had with the European Commissioner for (a) Transport and (b) competition in the last six months on the sale of British Midland TRANSPORT International; [110759] Air Traffic (3) what discussions she has had with (a) International Airlines Group, (b) British Airways, (c) Virgin Atlantic Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for and (d) Lufthansa on the sale of British Midland Transport what powers she has to make air traffic International; and who she (i) met and (ii) spoke to on distribution rules at UK airports. [115582] each such occasion; [110760] (4) what discussions her officials have had on the sale Mrs Villiers: The application of air traffic distribution of British Midland International; and who they (a) rules (TDRs) is governed by European law. Article 19 of met and (b) spoke to on each such occasion; [110761] Council Regulation (EC) No 1008/2008 on common rules for the operation of air services in the Community (5) what discussions she has had on the sale of states that: British Midland International; and who she (a) met and (b) spoke to on each such occasion. [110762] ″A Member State, after consultation with interested parties including the air carriers and airports concerned, may regulate, without discrimination among destinations inside the Community Mrs Villiers: The Secretary of State for Transport, or on grounds of nationality or identity of air carriers, the my right hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine distribution of air traffic between airports satisfying the following Greening), has not had any discussions with the Civil conditions: Aviation Authority, the Office of Fair Trading, International the airports serve the same city or conurbation; Airline Group, or Lufthansa regarding the sale of British the airports are served by adequate transport infrastructure Midland International. [...]; The Secretary of State had formal introductory meetings the airports are linked to one another and to the city or conurbation they serve by frequent, reliable and efficient public with the chief executives of Virgin Atlantic Airways transport services; and and British Airways on 30 January and 1 February the airports offer necessary services to air carriers, and do not respectively, during which the proposed sale of BMI unduly prejudice their commercial opportunities. was briefly mentioned. In addition the Secretary of Any decision to regulate the distribution of air traffic between State spoke to the chief executive of British Airways the airports concerned shall respect the principles of proportionality several times in March to gain a factual appreciation of and transparency, and shall be based on objective criteria.″ developments regarding the sale of BMI. Under Article 21 (1008/2008), all TDRs must be The Secretary of State had two telephone conversations approved by the Commission before implementation. with the European Competition Commissioner on 27 and Following submission of TDR proposals to the 28 March, to make him aware of the UK Government’s Commission, they have six months to determine whether concerns about the implications of BMI becoming the TDRs proposed are compatible with EU law. insolvent. 69W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 70W

Department for Transport officials took part in a The work of the regional enforcement centres, which telephone call with European Commission competition are co-located with 10 local offices, will be centralised at authority officials, at their request, in February to provide the DVLA’s headquarters in Swansea by 31 March the Commission with factual information about bilateral 2013. Staffing levels will be kept under review throughout air services agreements covering certain routes, as part the transition period and the viability of each office will of the Commission’s evidence-gathering for its consideration be reviewed on a regular basis. As a result, the closure of the proposed sale of BMI. plan may be subject to change. Department for Transport officials have had various meetings and discussions with British Airways, International Driving Under Influence: Drugs Airlines Group and Virgin Atlantic, both before and after the sale of BMI, at which the sale of BMI and its Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport implications were discussed. whether she plans to hold a public consultation on the Department for Transport officials also had telephone findings of the Expert Panel on Drug Driving; and if discussions with Office of Fair Trading officials during she will make a statement. [116108] February 2012 to confirm details of the latter’s process Mike Penning: Yes I do plan to hold a consultation for referring the proposed sale to the European Commission about the findings on the expert panel. competition authority. Indeed there is a requirement in the clause for the Cable Cars new specific drug driving offence for there to be consultation about which controlled drugs would be specified in the Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for new offence and what the specified limits for them Transport what discussions she has had with the Mayor would be. of London on plans for further cable cars to be built The regulations specifying controlled drugs and limits over the Thames. [115333] for the new offence would be subject to the affirmative procedure. Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport has had Driving: Licensing no discussions with the Mayor on plans for further cable cars to be built over the Thames. Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency what steps the Government (a) has taken and (b) plans to take to ensure compliance with European Commission Directives 2009/113/EC and 2006/126/EC regarding eyesight Mr Kennedy: To ask the Secretary of State for requirements for licensing group 1 and group 2 drivers; Transport what assessment her Department has made and whether she plans to bring forward legislative proposals of the potential effect of proposed closures of Driver to ensure such compliance. [116001] and Vehicle Licensing Agency offices on rural areas. [115810] Mike Penning: Following a public consultation on the European Commission’s proposals to amend the eyesight Mike Penning: An impact assessment has been completed standards, legislative changes are now being introduced. which considers the effect of the proposed closures. These changes will be introduced as soon as the Under the DVLA’s new “Front Office Counter Services” parliamentary process allows and we hope to have then contract, services will be provided by between 4,000 and in place by early autumn. 6,000 local outlets and will offer more localised face to In the meantime administrative arrangements have face services in comparison to the current 39 local been put in place to ensure that all driving licence offices. This will benefit motorists in rural areas who applicants meet the minimum acuity standards required will no longer have to travel as far to transact with the by the directives. DVLA. The plans will also ensure that more DVLA services will be delivered electronically or by telephone, Fuels: Rural Areas allowing motorists to transact with the DVLA at their convenience. Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) what steps she is taking to mitigate the Mr Kennedy: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport effect of filling station closures on the availability of when she plans to announce the timetable for Driver fuel for people in rural areas; [110158] and Vehicle Licensing Agency office closures. [115811] (2) if she will take steps to help people living in rural areas which are up to 30 miles away from the nearest Mike Penning: The timetable outlining the proposed forecourt or petrol station to have easier access to fuel; closure of the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency [110159] local office closure was announced on 4 July and was (3) if she will take steps to subsidise fuel costs for included in the outline business case. The proposed those on low incomes in rural areas. [110161] timetable for closure is as follows: 31 October 2013—Aberdeen, Bournemouth, Brighton, Carlisle, Mike Penning: My ministerial colleagues in the Chelmsford, Edinburgh, Ipswich, Lincoln, , Oxford, Sheffield, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Shrewsbury, Stockton, Swansea. (DEFRA) published in March a summary of actions 30 November 2012—Bangor, Beverley, Chester, Dundee, Exeter, taken by the Government on ‘The Cost of Fuel in Rural Inverness, Maidstone, Peterborough, Sidcup, Theale, Truro, Worcester. Areas’, including availability, which is available on DEFRA’s 31 December 2013—Birmingham, Borehamwood, Bristol, Cardiff, website: Glasgow, Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham, Northampton, http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13741-fuel-cost- Portsmouth, Preston, Wimbledon. rural.pdf 71W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 72W

Since then the Government has announced that the (2) what discussions she has had with her Department’s planned 3p rise in August 2012 will be postponed. agencies and the non-departmental bodies for which In addition, the Secretary of State for Transport, my she is responsible on the contribution they will make to right hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine identifying resource budget for possible re-prioritisation; Greening), and the Secretary of State for Energy and [115142] Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Kingston (3) when she will make public the areas of her and Surbiton (Mr Davey), have jointly written to the Department’s resource budget she has identified for fuel retail industry inviting them to bring forward proposals possible re-prioritisation; and when she plans to report on transparent pricing. to the Transport Select Committee on the outcome of this exercise. [115148] Motor Vehicles: Insurance Norman Baker: The Department is working with the George Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for Treasury to agree contingency plans as set out in “Improving Transport what recent assessment she has made of Spending Control” geographical inequalities in the cost of car insurance; http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ and what steps she is taking to address such inequalities. improving_spending_control.pdf [115268] Plans and options for reprioritisation will not be ″ ″ Mike Penning: The Department for Transport has published. They should be live plans that are reassessed not made a recent assessment of the geographical and updated on an on-going basis. inequalities in the cost of motor insurance. Insurers use their claims experience to assess risk and while location Railways is a factor, other factors such as the driver’s age and driving record will also influence premiums. John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government is determined to tackle the rising Transport what (a) statutory and (b) non-statutory cost of motor insurance. On 2 May 2012 the Secretary requirements exist for public consultation in respect of of State hosted a cross Government summit with the (i) ticket offices, (ii) timetable changes, (iii) service insurance industry on measures to reduce the rising of levels, (iv) line closures, (v) station closures, (vi) staffing cost of premiums. levels, (vii) safety and (viii) enhancements on the railways. [113705] Parliamentary Private Secretaries: Visits Abroad Mrs Villiers [holding answer 26 June 2012]: The Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport information is as follows: if she will list any occasions since May 2010 on which (a) For ticket offices, consultation requirements are non-statutory her parliamentary private secretary has travelled overseas and are set out in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (TSA). with her or on her behalf. [115351] These requirements cover proposals on ticket office opening hours falling into the “major changes” category defined in the Norman Baker: To the best of my knowledge, there TSA. The TSA is owned and maintained by the Association of have been no such occasions. Train Operating Companies, and is available from its website at http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/ Pedestrian Crossings: Schools governance There are no public consultation requirements in respect of David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for proposals that fall into the category of “minor changes”. Transport whether it is her policy that there has to be a (b) Franchised passenger operators are required by their franchise fatality before road crossing measures are implemented contracts to consult on the details of timetable changes according to specified time scales—usually four weeks. outside schools. [115757] (c) Franchise agreements provide that the Secretary of State for Transport may stipulate any reasonable procedural arrangements Norman Baker: No. It is for individual local highway and timescales with regard to train operator proposals to permanently authorities to determine whether or not a pedestrian amend the service specification. Generally, the Secretary of State crossing is necessary, taking into account local factors has required franchised train operators to comply with the which they are best placed to judge. The Department Government’s adopted Code of Practice on consultations, whereby for Transport provides guidance on assessing the need a minimum 12 week consultation period should be undertaken by for pedestrian crossings and for their design, through the promoting body with appropriate stakeholders. These include Local Transport Notes 1/95 and 2/95. Passenger Focus, London TravelWatch and local authorities with responsibility for transport (usually county councils, metropolitan Public Expenditure boroughs or unitary authorities). (d) As regards changes to service levels which involve the ceasing of all passenger services on a line, line closures, and John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport station closures, statutory requirements for consultation are set with reference to the speech by the Chief Secretary to out by statute in schedule 7 of the Railways Act 2005 which is the Treasury of 23 April 2012 at the Institute for Fiscal available from the Government website. Studies, (1) what progress her Department has made on http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/14/pdfs/ identifying a proportion of its resource budget that can ukpga_20050014_en.pdf be re-prioritised; what steps she has taken to identify (e) There are no statutory or non-statutory consultation such funds; and which parts of her Department’s resource requirements in relation to the staffing of rail stations, other than budget she has identified as suitable for re-prioritisation; those referred to above for ticket offices, and those contained in [115141] the general law on employment. 73W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 74W

(f) The Office of Rail Regulation is responsible for safety issues Mike Penning: The number of people killed as a in the rail industry. result of a collision involving a car rose by 7% in Great (g) The Government sets out its requirements for rail outputs Britain, from 1,117 in 2010 to 1,196 in 2011. Numbers and enhancements in its High Level Output Specification (HLOS) of people killed in a road accident rose by 3% in Great which covers a five year regulatory control period. The HLOS is Britain, from 1,850 in 2010 to 1,901 in 2011. accompanied by a statement of Funds Available to the rail industry to deliver those requirements. The choice of schemes Since 2003, deaths in road accidents have fallen steadily, needed to deliver those requirements is made as part of an and 2010 saw the highest ever fall (17%) in a single year. industry process, overseen by the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR). Despite the increase in fatalities in 2011 the annual total The ORR carries out a number of focussed consultations around is below that of 2009, and is indeed the second lowest its proposed approach, funding structures and the outputs to be figure since the end of the First World War. delivered. Its process and arrangements for consultation can be found at There are a number of factors that may have contributed www.rail-reg.gov.uk to the year-on-year increase in road fatalities from 2010 to 2011. However, there is evidence that extreme winter (h) Enhancements to the rail network which involve changes to the contractual arrangements for station and/or track access weather conditions tend to reduce the number of road under section 22 of the Railway Act 1993 require consultation fatalities, as there is much less traffic than usual and with all relevant industry bodies, any relevant Passenger Transport those motorists who do venture out tend to drive more Executive(s), relevant devolved bodies, as well as Passenger Focus slowly and cautiously. and (where appropriate) London TravelWatch. In this context it is particularly notable that there (i) Rail enhancements which require planning permission are were two separate periods of sustained snow and ice subject to the consultation requirements contained in general across many areas of Great Britain during 2010 (one at planning law. the beginning of the year, one at the end), but no such periods on a comparable scale during 2011. This year- Roads: Accidents on-year difference would be expected to lead to a higher number of fatalities in the winter months of 2011 than Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for in the winter months of 2010, holding all other factors equal. Transport (1) how many cyclists were (a) killed and The statistics bear this out: during the four winter (b) injured on the roads in each police force area in months of 2011 (January, February, November and each of the last 10 years; [115890] December) there were 81 more road fatalities than in (2) how many pedestrians were (a) killed and (b) the same months of 2010. During the remaining eight injured in road accidents in each police force area in months of the year (March to October inclusive), which each of the last 10 years. [115891] were not affected by extreme winter weather, there were 30 fewer fatalities in 2011 than in 2010. Mike Penning: The information requested has been placed in the Libraries of the House. Tonnage Tax Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) how many pedestrians were (a) killed John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for and (b) injured in collisions with cyclists in each police Transport what estimate she has made of the number force area in each of the last 10 years; [115892] of (a) onboard, (b) port-based and (c) other onshore (2) how many cyclists were (a) killed and (b) injured jobs which have been created in the domestic maritime in collisions with pedestrians in each police force area sector as a result of the introduction of the tonnage tax in each of the last 10 years. [115893] in each year since 2000-01. [R] [115933]

Mike Penning: The information requested has been Mike Penning: No such estimate has been made. The placed in the Library of the House. availability of tonnage tax as an optional taxation Figures for cyclists who were injured or killed after a regime for shipping companies is helping to maintain road collision involving a pedestrian are included only the competitiveness of the UK maritime sector, which is for cases where the pedestrian was also injured in the essential to job creation. accident. It is not possible to identify pedestrian involvement in collisions where only the cyclist was injured. John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many (a) UK and (b) non-UK seafarers Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for were employed on vessels in the tonnage tax scheme in Transport (1) how many cyclists were (a) killed and each year since 2002-03; and what estimate she has (b) injured contravening red lights in each police force made of the likely number in each such category in area in each of the last 10 years; [115894] 2011-12. [R] [115934] (2) how many pedestrians have been (a) killed and (b) injured by cyclists contravening red lights in each Mike Penning: The number of seafarers employed, as police force area in each of the last 10 years. [115895] reported to us by companies and groups for each tonnage tax training commitment year, are shown in the following Mike Penning: The information requested is not held table. centrally by the Department. UK Non-UK

Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport 2002-03 5,191 6,506 what assessment she has made of the reasons for the 2003-04 3,866 6,867 increase in the number of people killed (a) by cars and 2004-05 4,891 8,617 (b) in road accidents between 2010 and 2011. [115950] 75W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 76W

organisations play an important role alongside the police UK Non-UK and their local partners. The Home Office looks to 2005-06 4,473 10,314 highlight examples where collaboration is working well, 2006-07 5,028 11,492 and from November police and crime commissioners 2007-08 5,432 12,742 will be able to fund voluntary organisations directly to 2008-09 5,574 13,166 tackle local priorities. 2009-10 4,607 12,268 Cleveland Police 2010-11 4,931 13,587 2011-12 4,596 15,031 21. Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what estimate she has made of the John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for cost of the current investigation into Cleveland police. Transport (1) how many journeys by vessels in the [115558] tonnage tax were (a) between UK ports, (b) one port voyages, (c) to the UK from an international port and Nick Herbert: The costs of the investigation for 2011-12 (d) from the UK to an international port in each year were £1.6 million. I have approved the payment of a since the scheme’s inception; [R] [115935] special grant to Cleveland police to cover this cost. The (2) what proportion of the UK’s (a) imports and provisional estimate of the investigation costs for 2012-13 (b) exports in each year since 2000-01 were undertaken is £2.2 million. by vessels in the tonnage tax. [R] [115936] Deportations (Human Rights Legislation) Mike Penning: The Department does not hold this information. 23. Stuart Andrew: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps she is taking to Written Questions: Government Responses ensure that foreign criminals are not able to use human rights legislation to avoid removal. [115560] Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when she plans to answer question 111043 Mrs May: The Statement of Changes in Immigration tabled by the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire Rules that I laid before the House on 13 June has on 8 June 2012 for answer on 13 June 2012. [115974] come into effect today. This introduces clear new rules to protect the public from foreign criminals who try to Justine Greening: I will respond before the summer recess. hide behind family life as a reason to stay here. For the most serious offenders, only in exceptional cases will the public interest in deportation be outweighed by other factors. HOME DEPARTMENT Antisocial Behaviour Orders

Anti-social Behaviour Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) how many anti-social behaviour 18. Mr Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for orders on application have been issued in (a) England the Home Department what steps she has taken to and Wales, (b) Nottinghamshire and (c) Ashfield empower local communities to tackle alcohol-related constituency in the last three years; [115359] anti-social behaviour. [115555] (2) how many anti-social behaviour orders on conviction have been issued in (a) England and Wales, Lynne Featherstone: Together, the Government’s alcohol (b) Nottinghamshire and (c) Ashfield constituency in strategy, published in March, and the White Paper on the last three years. [115360] antisocial behaviour that was laid before Parliament in May, will provide communities with powerful new tools James Brokenshire: The number of antisocial behaviour to tackle alcohol-related antisocial behaviour. orders (ASBOs) issued in England and Wales, and in the Nottinghamshire criminal justice system (CJS) area, 22. Chris White: To ask the Secretary of State for the on application and following conviction in 2009 and Home Department what steps her Department is taking 2010 (the latest year for which data is currently available), to promote collaboration between voluntary organisations are shown in the following table. Data collated centrally and the police to tackle anti-social behaviour. [115559] by the Ministry of Justice on the number of ASBOs issued are not available at parliamentary constituency James Brokenshire: Antisocial behaviour is a problem level. ASBO data for 2011 are planned for publication that needs a local solution, and in many areas voluntary in October 2012.

Antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) issued at all courts, as reported to the Ministry of Justice1 by the Court Service, made on application2 and issued following conviction3, in the Nottinghamshire criminal justice system (CJS) area and England and Wales, 2009-10

2009 2010

Area On application On conviction On application On conviction

Nottinghamshire 15 29 10 31 77W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 78W

Antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) issued at all courts, as reported to the Ministry of Justice1 by the Court Service, made on application2 and issued following conviction3, in the Nottinghamshire criminal justice system (CJS) area and England and Wales, 2009-10 2009 2010 Area On application On conviction On application On conviction

England and Wales 698 973 696 968 1 Prior to the creation of the Ministry of Justice on 9 May 2007, the number of ASBOs issued were reported to Home Office by the Court Service. 2 Comprises ASBOs issued on application by magistrates courts acting in their civil capacity and county courts, which became available on 1 April 1999. 3 Comprises ASBOs made following conviction for a relevant criminal offence at the Crown court and at magistrates courts (acting in their criminal capacity), which the Police Reform Act 2002 made available from 2 December 2002. Note: Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfromlarge administrative data systems generated by the courts. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Prepared by Justice Statistics Analytical Services within the Ministry of Justice.

Antisocial Behaviour: Alcoholic Drinks Crime Reduction

Mrs Grant: To ask the Secretary of State for the Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps she is taking to tackle Home Department what steps she has taken to alcohol-related anti-social behaviour. [115561] empower police officers to reduce crime. [115562]

James Brokenshire: Through the Police Reform and Nick Herbert: This Government has swept away central Social Responsibility Act, the Government has already targets and cut police red tape. The Secretary of State given significant powers to local communities to tackle for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the alcohol-related antisocial behaviour. We have set out Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) has announced a further proposals to tackle the harms caused by alcohol package of policies to cut bureaucracy, saving up to misuse in the Government’s Alcohol Strategy, which 4.5 million police hours a year to get officers back on was published on 23 March 2012. The White Paper on the streets and focus on their core mission: to cut crime. antisocial behaviour, laid before Parliament in May, set out further proposals to give communities the power to Databases: Telecommunications ensure that action is taken to deal with persistent antisocial behaviour. Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 19 June 2012, Official Report, column 865W, on databases: British Nationality: Assessments telecommunications, what the names are of all the telecommunication companies and representative trade associations who have been involved in discussions with Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the the cross-Government Communication Capabilities Home Department pursuant to the statement of 11 June Development programme since its inception. [114769] 2012, Official Report, column 48, on family migration, whether applicants who successfully meet the English language requirements and pass the Life in the UK test James Brokenshire [holding answer 2 July 2012]: We prior to 9 July 2012, but who experience delays on the have had discussions with the following trade associations: part of the awarding organisations with the issuing of the Internet Service Providers Association, the Internet the necessary certification, will be admitted under the Telephony Service Providers Association and the London rules in place prior to 9 July 2012 if the certification is Internet Exchange. not received until after that date. [115007] Effective engagement with industry is central to the CCD programme; we have regular discussions with a Damian Green: Applicants for limited leave to enter number of companies. Revealing exactly which companies or remain in the UK as a spouse or partner must have been involved in discussions can reveal and provide evidence that they have attained the relevant compromise the operational capabilities that we develop language qualification. If there is a delay in receiving a in partnership with the industry. In order to maintain certificate UK Border Agency may be able to accept a our ability to protect the public, we do not disclose the transcript from the exam board. However, if it cannot companies we are in discussion with. be established that the person has met the relevant requirement, the application cannot be granted. Deportation Applications received on or after 9 July will be dealt with under the new family migration rules described in Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for the statement of 11 June. the Home Department how many people who had their Changes to the Life in the UK Test, which is required visas revoked and were scheduled for deportation in for those seeking indefinite leave to remain in the UK, each of the last five years have not been deported. will not take place until later this year. From October [115515] 2013, applicants for indefinite leave will be required to pass the revised Life in the UK test and obtain an Damian Green: The data requested are not held in a intermediate level speaking and listening qualification format compatible with National Statistics protocols, in English (i.e. at level B1 of the Common European or produced as part of the UK Border Agency’s standard Framework of Reference for Languages). reports. 79W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 80W

The Home Office publishes immigration statistics on Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for the a quarterly and annual basis, a copy of which can be Home Department what recent research her Department found in the Library of the House. The latest published has conducted on the potential benefits of drug statistics on removals can also be found at: consumption rooms. [115307] http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/ James Brokenshire: The Home Office has not undertaken immigration-q1-2012/ any research on drug consumption rooms. The Department of Health is the lead Department for research in this Detention Centres area.

Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the Entry Clearances Home Department whether her Department uses a risk-based assessment in respect of detention at immigration Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home removal centres; and if she will publish any assessment Department how many transit visas were issued in each criteria used. [115489] of the last three years. [115656]

Damian Green: Decisions to detain are taken on an Damian Green [holding answer 6 July 2012]: In 2009, individual basis in the light of all relevant circumstances 2010 and 2011 there were, respectively, 32,302, 28,955 known. The factors which should be considered and the and 26,935 transit entry clearance visas issued. guidance available to assist UK Border Agency officers Data relating to transit entry clearance visas issued in reaching these decisions are published in Chapter 55 are published in table “be.04.” of the quarterly Home of the Enforcement Instructions and Guidance, available Office statistical release “Immigration Statistics”. at: A copy of the latest release, Immigration Statistics http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/ January-December 2011 is available from the Library of policyandlaw/enforcement/detentionandremovals/ chapter55.pdf?view=Binary the House and from the Home Office Science, research and statistics web pages at: Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- Home Department if her Department will set a statistics/migration/migration-statistics1/ maximum period for detention at immigration removal centres. [115490] Europol

Damian Green: There are no plans to set a maximum Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home period for detention at immigration removal centres. Department on how many occasions the UK has (a) informed and (b) been informed by the Europol Security Drugs: Misuse Coordinator of a data breach under Article 3(2) of EU Council Decision 2009/968/JHA in each year since 2010; and what action resulted from those breaches. [115384] Mr David Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what recent representations James Brokenshire [holding answer 5 July 2012]: she has received on the legal high Benzo Fury (6-APB); Since 2010 the UK has not: [115296] (a) informed the Europol Security Coordinator or other party (2) what advice she has received from the Advisory of a data breach under Article 3(2) of EU Council Decision Council on the Misuse of Drugs on the legal high 2009/968/JHA. Benzo Fury (6-APB); [115297] (b) been informed by the Europol Security Coordinator or (3) whether she plans to use the powers contained in other party of a data breach under Article 3(2) of EU Council the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Order Decision 2009/968/JHA. 2012 to ban the legal high Benzo Fury (6-APB). [115298] Extradition

James Brokenshire: ’Benzo Fury’ is a brand name Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State product currently advertised as a “legal high” in the for the Home Department what studies her Department UK. In those ’Benzo Fury’ products analysed under the has undertaken of the differing legal systems of states Home Office Forensic Early Warning System (FEWS) a to which the UK can extradite people through the number of Class B controlled drugs have been identified European Arrest Warrant since 2003. [112125] as well as 5-(2-aminopropyl)benzofuran (5-APB) and 6-(2-aminopropyl)benzofuran (6-APB). Damian Green: The UK has not conducted any such We are monitoring ’Benzo Fury’ and its contents studies. It has participated in a peer evaluation of through our early warning systems. The national drug member states’ implementation of the European Arrest awareness service website, FRANK, has been updated Warrant, and this Government commissioned a to include information on 5-APB and 6-APB. The comprehensive, independent review of the operation of Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD) is the UK’s extradition arrangements, including the European reviewing 5-APB and 6-APB and considering the available Arrest Warrant, which included consideration of the evidence on the harms of these drugs. Any legislative standards applicable across member states’ criminal response from the Government would be informed by justice systems. The Government will respond to the the ACMD’s expert advice. review shortly. 81W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 82W

Illegal Immigrants years discretionary leave. The UK Border Agency will write to both the right hon. Member and Ms Begum Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for confirming the decision. the Home Department what steps her Department is taking to tackle illegal immigration. [115514] Immigration Controls

Damian Green: The UK Border Agency (UKBA) is Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for the taking steps to tackle illegal immigration. These include Home Department for what reasons the Immigration significantly tightening the work, study and family migration Rules prevent a non EEA spouse of a British citizen routes and bringing in reforms to break the link between from settling in the UK with their British children temporary and permanent migration. In parallel, the whilst the British citizen is working overseas. [116044] UKBA is taking action against those entering sham marriages, those who use false sponsors as a means of entering and staying in the UK and those who otherwise Damian Green: When a person is applying for indefinite abuse the asylum route to the detriment of those in leave to remain in the United Kingdom as a non-EEA need of protection. UKBA crime teams are working spouse of a British citizen, they need to give evidence of with other law enforcement agencies here and abroad to their intention to live permanently in the UK. tackle organised immigration crime. If the British citizen is not present and settled in the The UKBA must do more to find and remove those UK at the time of the application, it would be more with no right to be in the United Kingdom, it is taking difficult for them to show this intention. action to strengthen contact management with migrants The fact that the British citizen in question works whose leave has expired and to improve the system of overseas is not a barrier in itself to settlement in the UK. tracing absconders. Greater emphasis is being placed on promoting voluntary removals which has helped to Licensed Premises: Security increase the numbers taking up assisted voluntary return. Anyone found living or working here illegally remains Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the liable to be detained and removed. Home Department pursuant to the answer of 25 June 2012, Official Report, column 34W,on licensed premises Immigration security, whether the guidance will be published before the House rises for its summer recess; and if she will Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for make a statement. [115662] the Home Department what recent representations she has received on her immigration policy; and if she will Lynne Featherstone: As I stated in response to the make a statement. [115503] hon. Lady’s previous question, on 25 June 2012, Official Report, columns 33- 34W, the revised guidance will be Damian Green: Over the past two years, the Government published shortly. I have nothing further to add to that has consulted on a series of major reforms to the answer. immigration system. It has published four consultation documents covering work and study routes, settlement rules and family migration. Together these generated Misuse of Drugs Ministerial Group approximately 52,000 responses. The Department continues to receive significant volumes of correspondence on Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the immigration issues from members of the public, MPs, Home Department (1) which Ministers sit on the Inter- peers and others. Ministerial Group on Drugs; and how many times each The Government’s policy is to reduce net migration Minister has attended the Group since May 2010; back to the levels of the 1990s—to the tens of thousands [114622] not hundreds of thousands, and restore public confidence (2) how many times the Inter-Ministerial Group on in the system. The reforms we have made lay the foundations Drugs has met since 2010; how many times drug prevention for a more selective immigration system that meets the has been discussed by the Group since 2010; how many needs of the UK. times the Group has discussed drug education in schools; and whether the Group has discussed the closure of the Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for the drugs education forum. [114623] Home Department when her Department plans to respond to the 2010 application by a constituent of the right James Brokenshire: Ministerial membership of the hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton, Amina Inter-Ministerial Group (IMG) on Drugs is defined by Begum, for a reconsideration of her case to remain in its Terms of Reference: the UK under human rights considerations; for what reasons she was informed that a decision would be Home Office; made within approximately 12 weeks; and what the Department for Education; reason is for the time taken. [116051] Department for Health; Ministry of Justice; Damian Green: The UK Border Agency apologises Department for Work and Pensions; for the delay in considering the further submissions made by Ms Begum, to which it had aimed to respond Department for Communities and Local Government; within 12 weeks. I can confirm that a decision has been Cabinet Office; and made to grant Ms Begum and her dependants three HM Treasury 83W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 84W

Ministerial attendance varies according to the agenda This includes discussing the proposed changes relating of the meeting and their availability. Other Ministers or to pay and pensions with police officer staff associations senior officials and advisers may attend subject to the at the Police Negotiating Board. agenda. The IMG on Drugs has met 15 times since May 2010. Schengen Agreement Prevention and education forms a key part of the drug strategy as part of the reducing demand theme. Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home The IMG regularly discusses progress at its meetings on Department what assessment her Department has (a) each of the themes of the strategy. Ministers have not made and (b) published (1) on the potential benefits to discussed the closure of the Drug Education Forum. the UK of involvement in aspects of the Schengen system; [115320] Offences Against Children: British Nationals Abroad (2) of the value of UK use of the Schengen Information System. [115820] Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans her Department has to James Brokenshire [holding answer 5 July 2012]: The expand the capability and capacity of the Child Exploitation UK partially participates in the Schengen acquis, with and Online Protection Centre to investigate cases of the primary purpose of connecting in due course, to the abuse of children overseas by British sex offenders. second generation of the Schengen Information System [112811] (SIS II). The UK also participates in Schengen activities where drug and arms trafficking are involved. There are Lynne Featherstone: The Child Exploitation and Online no plans for the UK to join those elements of Schengen Protection Centre (CEOP) works with a network of pertaining to border controls. organisations in areas such as south-east Asia to protect children. The International Child Protection Network SIS II has been recognised by successive Governments (ICPN) brings together law enforcement agencies, NGOs as being important to the UK, as it will provide UK law and the private sector to increase the capacity and enforcement agencies with real-time access to the EU’s capability available to tackle the threat posed by British most comprehensive law enforcement database via the nationals to children in those countries. As a result of UK’s Police National Computer. The National Policing becoming part of the National Crime Agency (NCA), Improvement Agency public facing website currently CEOP will have access to the full range of operational outlines the high level overview of SIS II: tools at the disposal of the NCA to prevent harm to http://www.npia.police.uk/en/9619.htm children in the UK and abroad and disrupt the activities Measures directly related to the UK’s involvement in of paedophiles. the Schengen acquis are on the list of 133 notified to Parliament on 21 December 2011 as part of the decision Passports: Scotland to be made on whether we accept European Court of Justice jurisdiction for pre-Lisbon police and criminal Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for the justice measures in 2014. These measures will be reviewed Home Department what proportion of people registered accordingly. at an address in Scotland have a UK passport. [115483] Sexual Offences: Victim Support Schemes Damian Green: The Identity and Passport Service does not collate data on the basis of the geographical Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for the location of passport applications. Home Department pursuant to the answer of 27 June 2012, Official Report, columns 260-61W,on sexual offences: Police: Job Satisfaction victim support schemes, for what reasons the commissioning of a sexual assault referral in North Yorkshire has been Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for the delayed; and if she will make a statement. [115184] Home Department (1) if she will make an assessment of the effect on police morale of (a) changes in police Lynne Featherstone: The commissioning of the Sexual budgets, (b) annual pay freezes for police and (c) Assault Referral Centre (SARC) in North Yorkshire is a police pension reforms; [112992] joint collaboration between North Yorkshire and York (2) what recent assessment she has made of the effect Primary Care Trust and North Yorkshire police. The of changes in police budgets on the morale of police commissioning of this SARC is a local issue, so I am forces in England and Wales. [113013] unable to comment as to why a delay has occurred. However, I understand from the police that a joint Nick Herbert [holding answer 21 June 2012]: The management board has now been set up to oversee the Government has no choice but to deal with the deficit. development of the SARC which is expected to open in Reductions in Government funding to the police over early 2013. the spending review period are challenging but manageable. There is no question that the police will still have the Theft: Metals resources to do their important work. I understand that police officers are concerned about Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for the the potential changes to their pay and conditions and Home Department what estimate she has made of the changes to police budgets. I, along with other Ministers number of metal thefts in (a) England, (b) Lancashire and officials, maintain regular contact with police forces and (c) Blackpool North and Cleveleys constituency and officers to monitor the impact of these reforms. in the last 12 months. [115429] 85W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 86W

James Brokenshire: The information requested is not (2) whether the outcome of the Care Quality held centrally. A new recording classification for metal Commission’s investigation into abortion clinics will be theft offences reported to the police commenced on 1 published; [115529] April 2012 which will, for the first time, provide accurate (3) what progress the Care Quality Commission has information on the number of offences and where they made on its investigation of abortion practices that are have been committed. not compliant with the law. [115531]

Work Permits: Overseas Students Anne Milton: The Care Quality Commission publishes a report following every inspection of a provider of a Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for regulated activity that it carries out. These reports are the Home Department how many applications for available on the Commission’s website. Reports of the work permits by Romanian and Bulgarian students recent inspections of providers of termination of pregnancy were completed within three months in each of the last services are currently being finalised and will be published five years. [115427] in due course.

Damian Green: The data requested is not held in a Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Health format compatible with National Statistics protocols, (1) what steps he is taking to ensure that all women or produced as part of the UK Border Agency’s standard requesting abortions are seen by two doctors; [115530] reports. However the UK Border Agency publishes (2) what steps he plans to take to ensure that all immigration statistics in relation to Romanian and abortions performed are compliant with the law; and if Bulgarian work permit applications on a quarterly and he will make a statement. [115532] annual basis, a copy of which can be found at: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- Anne Milton: The Abortion Act 1967 requires that statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/ two registered medical practitioners must certify that immigration-tabs-q1-2012/eea-q1-2012-tabs?view=Binary they are of the opinion, formed in good faith, that at least one and the same ground for abortion exists taking account all the particular circumstances of the individual case. There is no requirement that both doctors must see and examine the woman. The Department has HEALTH contacted three police forces, the General Medical Council and the Care Quality Commission about reports of Abortion gender selective abortion and about the pre-signing of HSA1 forms. Investigations and reviews are currently Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for under way and the results will inform what steps may Health (1) what recent discussions he has had on the need to be taken to ensure that termination of pregnancy reasons for geographical variations in the stage of pregnancy services are compliant with the law. at which women are seeking abortions with (a) the Secretary of State for Health and (b) the Minister for Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse Women and Equalities; what steps he is taking to ensure that police use existing powers to protect women from Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for intimidation and harassment at abortion clinics; and if Health what plans his Department has to conduct he will make a statement; [115368] research into high levels of alcohol consumption at (2) if he will assess the extent to which anti-abortion home amongst (a) men and (b) women. [116039] protests outside clinics are having an effect on the stage of pregnancy at which women are seeking abortions Anne Milton: The Office for National Statistics, “Opinions (a) in Brighton and Hove, (b) in Reading, (c) in Survey Report No 42 Drinking: adults’ behaviour and Stratford and (d) nationally; and if he will make a knowledge in 2009”includes a section on the “circumstances statement. [115369] in which people drank last week.” The Department has also commissioned research Anne Milton: We are aware of reports of protests into publishing estimates of alcohol consumption based outside abortion clinics over the past few months. However, on a daily drinking diary as part of the 2011 Health we are not aware of any evidence that these protests are Survey for England. The diary will provide information contributing to geographical variations in women seeking about where respondents say they drank on each day in abortions, or the stage at which they seek an abortion. the week of the survey. The results are expected to be Variations in early access to abortion services can be published by the Health and Social Care Information influenced by a number of factors. If clinics have concerns Centre towards the end of 2012 or the beginning of about protests, they should contact their local police 2013. force for advice and support. In addition, every national health service body has a local security management Atos specialist, which can be called upon for assistance, details of which are available through the local primary Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for care trust. Health pursuant to the answer of 18 June 2012, Official Report, column 786W, on Atos, what the total value per Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Health year was of each contract between his Department and (1) when the Care Quality Commission’s investigation Atos in (a) 2009, (b) 2010, (c) 2011 and (d) 2012. into abortion clinics is due to be completed; [115528] [115285] 87W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 88W

Mr Simon Burns: The IMS3 contract was awarded in It is the extent of the individual’s assessed primary January 2012. The total estimated spend with Atos health care needs, and the care required to meet those relating to this contract for the financial year (FY) needs, rather than the diagnosis, that determine eligibility. 2012-13 is £15.9 million. The Choose and Book contract with Atos incurred Diabetes the following costs from 2009-12, split by FY,as follows: Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for £ million Health what plans he has to consult on the companion 2009-10 33.0 document on diabetes that will be published alongside [115924] 2010-11 36.7 the long-term conditions outcomes strategy. 2011-12 21.0 Paul Burstow: The first meeting of the Diabetes Advisory 2012-13 (to 30 June 2012) 7.3 Group, was held on the 21 June. This is a task and finish Notes: 1. FY 2009-10 and 2010-11 are actual costs. group which will oversee the production of the diabetes 2. FY 2011-12 are actual costs, but they are subject to final audit companion document. approval. This group includes expert members in their field, 3. FY 2012-13 are actual costs up until 30 June 2012 which are also patient representatives and members of relevant voluntary subject to final audit approval. sector organisations, including Diabetes UK. Cancer This group is consulting with the Department, and across Government Departments in the development of Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health this document, which is expected to be published alongside what steps he is taking to ensure that the International the Long Term Conditions Outcome Strategy towards Cancer Benchmarking Partnership Study is progressing the end of this year. as quickly as possible. [115519] Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Burstow: The International Cancer Benchmarking Health whether the cardiovascular disease outcomes Partnership (ICBP) is a unique and innovative international strategy will include outcomes for people with diabetes; partnership of clinicians, academics and policymakers, and if he will make a statement. [115925] seeking to understand how and why cancer survival varies between different countries and jurisdictions. Paul Burstow: The primary focus of the outcomes The ICBP is chaired by England’s National Clinical strategy will be on conditions causing or resulting from Director for Cancer, Professor Sir Michael Richards. “atheromatous” disease of the arteries, but a range of The Department funded the first ICBP research module, other conditions will also be included, such as arrhythmias Module 1, in order to develop and establish the partnership and heart failure. It will consider the inter-relationship as quickly as possible. Other modules are co-funded by between different conditions, including diabetes, and other members of the ICBP. the growing challenge of multiple morbidities. There are estimated to be 3.1 million people with diabetes in Results on Module 2, ‘Population awareness and the United Kingdom and they are at two to four times beliefs’, as well as further papers on Module 1, are greater risk of cardiovascular disease (CVD) than people currently being submitted for peer review. Further work without diabetes. Since it accounts for a significant on other modules is under way. While this is being proportion of the CVD burden, the outcomes strategy progressed as quickly as possible, the need for academic will therefore cover diabetes as a key risk factor for rigour, the complexity of the work and the challenges CVD, rather than its detailed management. associated with working across international boundaries means that it takes time to deliver the planned programme. Dialysis Machines Continuing Care Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health what plans he has to ensure that ancillary (1) how many patients diagnosed with (a) Parkinson’s services for renal dialysis patients will be commissioned disease and (b) dementia are eligible for long-term care as part of specialist renal services in order to avoid the funding; and how many such patients claim for it; risk of fragmentation. [115919] [115818] (2) whether his Department has made an estimate of Mr Simon Burns: No final decisions have been taken the number of Parkinson’s disease and dementia on which services will be directly commissioned by the patients who have funded their own care since 2004. NHS Commissioning Board and which will be [115906] commissioned by Clinical Commissioning Groups. Work is in hand to determine the list of services that the Paul Burstow: This information is not collected centrally. board will commission and the results of this work are due later in the summer. Anyone assessed as having a certain level of care needs may receive national health service continuing health care. Eligibility is decided after an assessment Drugs: Misuse has been made by a multidisciplinary team using the National Framework for NHS Continuing Healthcare Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and NHS-Funded Nursing Care. The eligibility criteria what research his Department has conducted on the for NHS continuing health care are not disease specific. potential benefits of drug consumption rooms. [115306] 89W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 90W

Anne Milton: The Department has not commissioned Mr Simon Burns: Pharmaceutical companies have a any research into drug consumption rooms. statutory obligation to report adverse reactions and any As the possession of controlled drugs without a information which may influence the evaluation of benefits licence is illegal, the provision and use of consumption and risks for medicinal products marketed in the United rooms for illicit drugs would be a criminal offence. The Kingdom, to the UK regulatory body, the Medicines aims of the Government’s drug strategy are to promote and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA). recovery from dependence and to reduce illicit and Criminal penalties (fines and incarceration) exist for other harmful drug use. breaches of these obligations in UK legislation. MHRA conducts a programme of statutory Drugs: Pregnancy pharmacovigilance inspections of UK marketing authorisation holders in order to examine compliance Sir Robert Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for with the safety reporting requirements and in order to Health whether the NHS holds a specific list of drugs ensure that action is taken to address non-compliance. know to pass through the placenta; and what MHRA evaluates all notifications of breaches of assessment his Department has made of the potential medicines legislation which are made to the agency and, advantages of keeping such a list. [115331] where appropriate, investigations are conducted. When serious non-compliance with the safety reporting Mr Simon Burns: It is now widely accepted that most requirements for medicinal products is identified (through medicines can pass through the placenta to some degree1. regular risk-based inspection or other means), MHRA Medicines should only be prescribed in pregnancy if the can employ a range of options to address the findings. expected benefit to the mother is considered greater These include repeat inspections to assess whether than the risk to the foetus and all medicines should be appropriate corrective and preventative actions have avoided if possible during the first trimester. been implemented; the issuing of warning letters; action The British National Formulary provides prescribers, through marketing authorisations and new marketing pharmacists and other healthcare professionals with authorisation applications when considered appropriate independent and up-to-date information about the use (e.g. suspension of authorisations); referral for criminal of medicines. Where relevant, information is provided prosecution in the UK (if offences have been committed); on the use of specific medicines in pregnancy. and referral to the European Medicines Agency for Information is also available from UK Medicines action to be taken under the European Union infringement Information regulation for medicinal products authorised via the central EU process, which may result in a marketing www.ukmi.nhs.uk authorisation holder being fined. and through the UK Teratology Information Service UK Statutory Instrument 3144:1994 (as amended) www.uktis.org states: commissioned by the Health Protection Agency. “The holder of a marketing authorization shall maintain a 1 Syme et al. Drug transfer and metabolism by the human record of reports of which he is aware of suspected adverse placenta. Clinical Pharmacokinetics. 2004; 43(8): 487-514. reactions in accordance with the relevant Community provisions which shall be open to inspection by a person authorised by the Drugs: Prisons licensing authority, who may take copies of the record and, if the licensing authority so directs, the authorization holder shall furnish the licensing authority with a copy of any such reports of which Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health he has a record or of which he is or subsequently becomes aware.” what proportion of prisoners entered each prison with Current Community legislation (EU Directive 2001/ an addiction to drugs in 2011-12. [115365] 83/EC) requires marketing, authorisation holders to maintain detailed records of all suspected adverse reactions Paul Burstow: Information is collected by the Department of which the company becomes aware and to report in respect of the total number of prisoners receiving suspected serious adverse reactions to relevant competent clinical interventions for drug dependence in prisons in authorities (to MHRA in the UK). England and Wales and within each prison in 2010-11, the most recent year for which data are available. Data are not yet available for 2011-12. In 2010-11, a total of 30,459 detoxification drug treatments were provided to male and female prisoners Drugs: Young Offenders of all ages and a total of 30,650 extended prescribing maintenance treatments were provided. Data in respect Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health of each prison have been placed in the Library. what proportion of young offenders were addicted to drugs on arrival at each young offenders institute in Drugs: Safety England and Wales in 2011-12. [115300]

Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Paul Burstow: This information is not available as (1) what steps his Department takes when notified of requested and data are available only in respect of pharmaceutical companies contravening the rules young male offenders. In 2010-11, the most recent year contained in legislation on medical safety; [115308] for which data are available, 347 young male offenders (2) what records he requires pharmaceutical were provided with clinical intervention for drug dependence manufacturers to keep of reported adverse reaction to in young offender institutes. Data are not currently their drugs. [115309] available for 2011-12. 91W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 92W

Data are not held centrally on young female offenders who will be able to review and scrutinise the decisions with drug addiction. Female young offenders are detained and actions of health and wellbeing boards, and make in women’s prisons and data about prisoner drug addiction reports and recommendations to the authority or its do not identify whether or not an inmate is a young executive. As such, the Secretary of State for Health will offender. not have any national intervention powers in relation to health and wellbeing boards. Health and Wellbeing Boards Health Services: Greater London Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what powers he has to intervene in the event that a Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health health and wellbeing board consistently underperforms. which NHS trusts in Greater London employed [115923] consultants in each of the last five years; and how much was spent by each trust. [115400] Paul Burstow: Health and wellbeing boards will be established as local committees of local authorities and Mr Simon Burns: Information regarding expenditure as such it is not for central Government to monitor on consultancy services by national. health service trusts their performance. The boards will work with local within the London strategic health authority (SHA) communities to agree local priorities for action to improve area for the years 2007-08 to 2010-11 is contained in the both health and care services and the health and wellbeing tables. Expenditure on consultancy services by NHS of local people through joint health and wellbeing bodies was first collected in the audited summarisation strategies (JHWSs). JHWSs should include clear outcome schedules in 2007-08, therefore data for 2006-07 is not measures which health and wellbeing boards can use to separately identifiable. demonstrate whether they have been successful in tackling Owing to changes in the organisational structure of these priorities and against which local people can hold the NHS over the period requested, a separate table has health and wellbeing boards to account. The involvement been provided for each year. of local councillors, and local Healthwatch on health The Department does not collect data from NHS and wellbeing boards, will support this transparency foundation trusts. Where an NHS trust obtains foundation and accountability to local people. trust status part way through any year, the data provided Health and wellbeing boards will also be subject to is only for the part of the year the organisation operated overview and scrutiny committees of the local authority as an NHS trust.

Expenditure on consultancy services by NHS Trusts within London SHA for the years 2007-08 to 2010-11 Table 1: 2007-08 spend on consultancy services by NHS Trusts in London SHA economy area Organisation Operating expenses: consultancy services (£000)

Barking, Havering And Redbridge Hospitals NHS Trust 1,896 Barnet And Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 1,545 Barnet, Enfield And Haringey Mental Health NHS Trust 283 Barts And The London NHS Trust 1,656 Bromley Hospitals NHS Trust 362 Camden And Islington NHS Foundation Trust , 1,716 Central And North West London MH NHS Foundation Trust 42 Ealing Hospital NHS Trust 251 East London NHS Foundation Trust 0 Epsom And St Helier University Hospitals NHS Trust 1,670 Great Ormond Street Hospital NHS Trust 1,664 Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust 4,709 Kingston Hospital NHS Trust 1,198 London Ambulance Service NHS Trust 1,519 Mayday Healthcare NHS Trust 715 Newham University Hospital NHS Trust 669 North East London Mental Health NHS Trust 1,144 North Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust 1,161 North West London Hospitals NHS Trust 509 Queen Elizabeth Hospital NHS Trust 673 Queen Mary’s Sidcup NHS Trust 345 Royal Brampton And Harefield NHS Trust 438 Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 2,088 South West London And St George’s Mental Health NHS Trust 2,392 St George’s Healthcare NHS Trust 2,053 The Hillingdon Hospital NHS Trust 912 The Lewisham Hospital NHS Trust 1,740 The Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital NHS Trust 565 West London Mental Health NHS Trust 403 West Middlesex University NHS Trust 288 Whipps Cross University Hospital NHS Trust 1,521 93W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 94W

Expenditure on consultancy services by NHS Trusts within London SHA for the years 2007-08 to 2010-11 Table 1: 2007-08 spend on consultancy services by NHS Trusts in London SHA economy area Organisation Operating expenses: consultancy services (£000)

Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 1,461 Source: 2007-08 NHS Trusts Audited Summarisation Schedules

Table 2: 2008-09 spend on consultancy services by NHS Trusts in London SHA economy area Organisation Operating expenses: consultancy services (£000)

Barking, Havering And Redbridge University Hospitals NHS Trust 2,820 Barnet And Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 996 Barnet, Enfield And Haringey Mental Health NHS Trust 490 Barts And The London NHS Trust 8,484 Bromley Hospitals NHS Trust 1,185 Ealing Hospital NHS Trust 633 Epsom And St Helier University Hospitals NHS Trust 2,817 Great Ormond Street Hospital NHS Trust 1,745 Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust 1,678 Kingston Hospital NHS Trust 1,481 London Ambulance Service NHS Trust 1,155 Mayday Healthcare NHS Trust 711 Newham University Hospital NHS Trust 2,186 North East London NHS Foundation Trust 174 North Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust 537 North West London Hospitals NHS Trust 686 Queen Elizabeth Hospital NHS Trust 1,012 Queen Mary’s Sidcup NHS Trust 740 Royal Brompton And Harefield NHS Trust 990 Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 5,461 South West London And St George’s Mental Health NHS Trust 2,102 St George’s Healthcare NHS Trust 3,655 The Hillingdon Hospital NHS Trust 1,121 The Lewisham Hospital NHS Trust 2,232 The Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital NHS Trust 551 West London Mental Health NHS Trust 263 West Middlesex University NHS Trust 234 Whipps Cross University Hospital NHS Trust 2,148 Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 917 Source: 2008-09 NHS Trusts Audited Summarisation Schedules

Table 3: 2009-10 spend on consultancy services by NHS Trusts In London SHA economy area Organisation Operating expenses: consultancy services (£000)

Barking, Havering And Redbridge University Hospitals NHS Trust 2,468 Barnet And Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 1,474 Barnet, Enfield And Haringey Mental Health NHS Trust 1,007 Barts And The London NHS Trust 11,335 Ealing Hospital NHS Trust 186 Epsom And St Helier University Hospitals NHS Trust 1,960 Great Ormond Street Hospital NHS Trust 1,587 Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust 4,517 Kingston Hospital NHS Trust 1,505 London Ambulance Service NHS Trust 1,022 Mayday Healthcare NHS Trust 734 Newham University Hospital NHS Trust 1,486 North Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust 673 North West London Hospitals NHS Trust 688 Royal Brompton And Harefield NHS Foundation Trust 9 Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 5,029 South London Healthcare NHS Trust 2,923 South West London And St George’s Mental Health NHS Trust 1,905 St George’s Healthcare NHS Trust 3,429 The Hillingdon Hospital NHS Trust 841 The Lewisham Hospital NHS Trust 1,706 The Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital NHS Trust 696 West London Mental Health NHS Trust 1,381 West Middlesex University NHS Trust 258 95W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 96W

Table 3: 2009-10 spend on consultancy services by NHS Trusts In London SHA economy area Organisation Operating expenses: consultancy services (£000)

Whipps Cross University Hospital NHS Trust 1,989 Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 1,371 Source: 2009-10 NHS Trusts Audited Summarisation Schedules

Table 4: 2010-11 spend on consultancy services by NHS Trusts in London SHA economy area Organisation Operating expenses: consultancy services (£000)

Barking Havering and Redbridge Hospitals NHS Trust 1,546 Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 1,095 Barnet Enfield and Haringey Mental Health NHS Trust 1,007 Baits and the London NHS Trust 5,451 Ealing Hospital NHS Trust 230 Epsom and St Helier University Hospitals NHS Trust 915 Great Ormond Street Hospital For Children NHS Trust 1401 Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust 6,135 Kingston Hospital NHS Trust 800 London Ambulance Service NHS Trust 2471 Croydon Health Services NHS Trust 734 Newham University Hospital NHS Trust 2,769 North Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust 658 North West London Hospitals NHS Trust 549 Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 3,653 South London Healthcare NHS Trust 2,015 South West London and St George’s Mental Health NHS Trust 2,006 St George’s Healthcare NHS Trust 2,177 The Hillingdon Hospital NHS Trust 179 The Lewisham Hospital NHS Trust 2,404 The Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital NHS Trust 1,429 West London Mental Health NHS Trust 365 West Middlesex University NHS Trust 428 Whipps Cross University Hospital NHS Trust 1,835 Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 1,017 Central London Community Healthcare NHS Trust 2,202 Source: 2010-11 NHS Trusts Audited Summarisation Schedules

Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Paul Burstow: This information is not collected centrally. which NHS trusts sold land in Greater London in each However, two surveys were carried out by the Office for of the last five years; and what the value was of each National Statistics. sale. [115401] In 1999, the Office for National Statistics carried out Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is not a survey on behalf of the Department, the Scottish collected. National health service organisations locally Health Executive and the National Assembly for Wales. decide on how their estate is used, including the disposal The results, published in ‘Mental health of children and of land. adolescents in Great Britain’ (ONS 2000), stated that 9.5% of five to 15-year-olds had a clinically recognisable Kidneys: Diseases mental disorder. The report included a review of previous research. This noted that epidemiological surveys in Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if Great Britain which have focused on psychiatric morbidity he will create a national specialised service for the among children have concentrated on specific disorders, treatment of atypical haemolytic-uraemic syndrome. particular age ranges, and comprehensive studies in [114110] particular localities. Mr Simon Burns: The Advisory Group for National In 2004, the Office for National Statistics carried out Specialised Services met recently to consider whether a survey on behalf of the Department and the Scottish there should be a nationally commissioned service for Executive. The results, published in ‘Mental health of the treatment of atypical haemolytic-uraemic syndrome. children and young people in Great Britain, 2004’ (ONS Ministers have yet to receive their recommendation. 2005), stated that 9.6% of five to 16-year-olds had a clinically recognisable mental disorder. Mental Illness: Children Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 15 June 2012, Official Report, NHS: Public Opinion column 802W, on mental illness: children, how many and what proportion of children aged five to 16 suffered Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health from clinically recognisable mental disorder in each of what his policy is on the consideration which the last 30 years. [115783] should be given to (a) public views of any proposed 97W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 98W reconfiguration in the NHS and (b) any differences of tend to have lower risk of coronary heart disease, lower opinion amongst clinicians before final decisions on risk of some cancers, better bowel health and better reconfiguration are made. [116045] micronutrient status. It is difficult to attribute direct effect of the consumption Mr Simon Burns: The Government’s policy is that on fruit and vegetables on rates of cancer and heart reconfigurations of health services must be able to disease, however the national health service plan (2000) demonstrate evidence against the Secretary of State for estimates that eating at least five portions of a variety of Health’s four tests. The tests set out that reconfiguration fruit and vegetables a day could reduce the risk of proposals should have: support from clinical commissioners; deaths from chronic diseases such as heart disease, strengthened public and patient engagement; clarity on stroke, and cancer by up to 20%. the clinical evidence base; and support for patient choice. Effective local engagement should ensure that services Pharmacy continually improve, based on the feedback of local communities. Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Health It is important that proposals are locally-led, developed (1) for what reason patients who collect prescriptions by clinicians and are based on a thorough assessment of from a pharmacy can use the New Medicines Service clinical need and the evidence for change. It is for but patients who collect prescriptions from the dispensary clinical commissioners, working in partnership with of a dispensing practice cannot; [115403] clinicians in the provider sector, to agree on the case for (2) what plans his Department has to extend the change. The National Clinical Advisory Team supports New Medicines Service to dispensing practices. [115404] this process by providing an independent external clinical review to assure the case for any reconfiguration. Mr Simon Burns: The New Medicine Service (NMS) was negotiated as part of the community pharmacy Nutrition contractual framework. It is designed to provide support to patients to maximise the benefits from their medicines and is based on research showing that early intervention Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health by a pharmacist can help to improve patients’ adherence pursuant to the answer of 19 June 2012, Official Report, to their medicines and reduce the use of national health columns 807-8W, on nutrition, what proportion of the service resources. population consume more than the average recommended level of trans fats; and what effect this has on (a) Dispensing doctors, who are authorised or required mental and (b) physical health. [115789] to provide dispensing services to specific patients, may already participate in the Dispensing Services Quality Scheme (DSQS), as set out in the General Medical Anne Milton: The Department recommends that trans Services Statement of Financial Entitlement. The DSQS fatty acids should contribute no more than 2% of food applies only to doctors who dispense, not pharmacies, energy intake. The most recent data from the UK and sets out the minimum requirements for review of National Diet and Nutrition Survey found that two use of medicines with patients, which are intended to participants out of over 2,000 (0.1%) had an intake of optimise the impact of treatment for each individual trans fatty acids above the recommendation. patient. The Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition There are currently no plans to extend the NMS to (SACN), who advise the Department, reviewed the dispensing doctors. evidence of the health effects of trans fatty acids in 2007. SACN concluded that there is evidence that trans Public Health England fatty acids may increase the risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) and recommended that average dietary intakes of trans fatty acids should not exceed 2% of Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for food energy. SACN concluded that the evidence relating Health what accountability processes he has put in intakes of trans fatty acids to risk of diseases other than place to ensure that (a) Public Health England delivers CHD, including neurological development in children the outcomes required of it and (b) the performance of and cognitive decline, is limited and therefore insufficient health and well-being Boards is measured. [115917] for any conclusions to be drawn. Anne Milton: Public Health England (PHE) will be an executive agency of the Department of Health for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health operational independence, but will nevertheless be subject pursuant to the Answer of 26 April 2012, Official to the usual requirements of public and parliamentary Report, column 543W, on food: safety, what assessment accountability of a Department of state. A framework he has made of the effects of eating five or more agreement between PHE and the Department will set portions of fruit and vegetables a day on rates of (a) out roles and responsibilities. There will be a separate cancer and (b) heart disease. [115793] line of accountability from the chief executive of PHE to the Secretary of State for Health, as well as a direct Anne Milton: The Government’s “5 a Day” reporting to the Permanent Secretary. In addition, an recommendation is based on epidemiological evidence advisory board with a non-executive majority will provide indicating an association with consumption of more independent advice and challenge to support the running than 400 grams a day of fruit and vegetables (not and development of PHE. PHE will have to deliver including potatoes) with reduced risk of certain diet against objectives in its business plan, to be measured related chronic diseases. People who consume high levels against the Public Health Outcomes Framework, and of fruit and vegetables compared with low consumers report annually. 99W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 100W

Health and well-being boards will be established as Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health local committees of local authorities and as such it is with reference to his consultation on the next steps for not for central Government to monitor their performance. nursery milk, whether the estimate of 40 per cent The boards will work with local communities to agree uptake of the scheme is based on the whole population local priorities for action to improve both health and under the age of five or only those in settings for more care services, and the health and well-being of local than two hours a day. [115601] people through Joint Health and Well-being Strategies (JHWSs). JHWSs should include clear outcome measures Anne Milton: The estimate of 40% uptake of the by which health and well-being boards can use to Nursery Milk Scheme is based on the whole population demonstrate whether they have been successful in tackling of children under five years of age. It is not based on the these priorities, against which local people can hold number of children attending settings for more than health and well-being boards to account. The involvement two hours a day. of local councillors, and local Healthwatch on health and well-being boards, will support this transparency Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and accountability to local people. Health and well-being how many children have received milk through the boards will also be subject to overview and scrutiny Nursery Milk Scheme in each of the last five years. committees of the local authority who will be able to [115653] review and scrutinise the decisions and actions of health and well-being boards, and make reports and Anne Milton: I refer the hon. Member to the written recommendations to the authority or its executive. answer I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon Henderson), on 4 July 2012, Official Report, column 666W. School Milk Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of children under the age of five has how many settings claiming for the cost of milk received free milk through the nursery milk scheme in through the nursery milk scheme claimed more than each of the last five years. [115670] (a) 60 pence per pint, (b) 70 pence per pint, (c) 80 pence per pint and (d) 90 pence per pint in the latest Anne Milton: The Department is unable to provide period for which figures are available; and if he will information on the number of individual children, and make a statement. [115599] hence the proportion of children under five, who have received free milk through the Nursery Milk Scheme in Anne Milton: The following table provides figures for each of the last five years, as this information is not held the number of child care settings claiming for the free centrally. Based on the total number of portions (1/3 pint) nursery milk at a cost ranging from 60p to 90p per pint supplied each year, if we assume that children attend for in the month of June 2012: at least two hours, five days per week for 36 weeks per year, 271,246,523 portions (reimbursed in 2011-12) translates Cost claimed by the child care to around 1.5 million children, which represents roughly settings in providing free nursery 40% of the total number of under-fives. Of course, milk in the month of June 2012 Number of child care settings more individual children may attend for fewer days per week, meaning that the proportion of under-fives receiving More than 60p per pint 2,980 free milk under the scheme may be higher. More than 70p per pint 23,098 More than 80p per pint 1,140 Surgery More than 90p per pint 8,962 Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department is currently consulting on a range of Health what information his Department holds on the options for reforming the operation of the Nursery number of surgical clinics cancelled in each year from Milk Scheme, looking at making it more efficient—as 2002. [116009] well as improving its value for money, while ensuring that all children under five attending a childcare setting Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not collect for more than two hours a day continue to be entitled to information on the number of cancelled surgical clinics. receive free milk. Thalidomide Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many children under the age of five who receive Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for milk through the nursery milk scheme have this milk Health (1) how much the NHS spent on thalidomide supplied by intermediaries. [115600] derivative products in the treatment of cancer between 2009 and 2011; [115277] Anne Milton: Some child care providers use intermediaries (2) which companies supply thalidomide derivative or agents to arrange the supply of milk in the Nursery products to the NHS. [115278] Milk Scheme. At present 32,821 child care settings use such agents. The Department does not hold information Paul Burstow: The only thalidomide derivative licensed centrally on the number of individual children who in the United Kingdom for the treatment of cancer is receive free nursery milk. However in 2011-12, there lenalidomide, which is used in the national health service were 121,139,059 portions of milk (each a third of a in England for the treatment of multiple myeloma. pint) supplied through agents, which represents 44.7% Information on its use in primary and secondary care is of the total milk reimbursed under the scheme. shown in the following tables. 101W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 102W

Primary care: lenalidomide prescription items dispensed in the community in England1 Number of patients supplied with adult Total cost to Number of Net ingredient cost Financial year stem cell donors hospitals (£) prescription items (£000) 2009-10 75 953,400 2009 0 0 2010-11 69 936,882 2010 2 9.1 2011-12 88 1,230,680 2011 9 33.8 1 Although lenalidomide is only licensed for the treatment of multiple myeloma, it is not possible to determine if the reported usage was for that purpose as the intended use is not recorded. Source: DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Prescription Cost Analysis system. Electoral Register Secondary care: packs of lenalidomide used in hospitals1 Number of packs2 Cost (£000) Mr Evennett: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what 2009 5,655 23.2 recent representations he has received on the sale of the 2010 12485 49.7 edited electoral register; and if he will make a 2011 16,529 67.3 statement. [115276] 1 Although lenalidomide is only licensed for the treatment of multiple myeloma, it is not possible to determine if the reported usage was for Mr Harper: The Government has received numerous that purpose, as the intended use is not recorded. representations on the future of the edited electoral 2 Lenalidomide is available in packs of 5 mg, 10 mg, 15 mg and 25 mg, each containing 21 tablets. The figure for the number of packs is register. Cabinet Office records show 13 representations therefore not a direct measure of the physical quantity used, the having been received on the edited version of the register number of times the medicine was used nor the number of patients since 1 June. The Cabinet Office has not received any treated. recent representations specifically on the sale of the Source: edited electoral register. IMS Health: Hospital Pharmacy Audit. Parliamentary Private Secretaries: Visits Abroad The British National Formulary indicates that the only manufacturer of lenalidomide is Celgene Ltd. Manufacturers can supply NHS organisations directly Chris Bryant: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister on or through wholesalers. which occasions his Parliamentary Private Secretary has travelled overseas with him or on his behalf since May 2010. [115347] Thalidomide Trust The Deputy Prime Minister: My hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) served as Sir Robert Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for my Parliamentary Private Secretary from May 2010 to Health what recent progress he has made on his talks February 2012. My hon. Friend the Member for East with the National Advisory Council to the Thalidomide Dunbartonshire () has held the post since Trust; and if he will make a statement. [115330] February 2012. I have not been accompanied on any overseas visits by my Parliamentary Private Secretaries Paul Burstow: I met with the National Advisory nor have they made any overseas visits on my behalf. Council (NAC) to the Thalidomide Trust on 12 June Voting Rights: Prisoners 2012. Departmental officials met with members of the Thalidomide Trust and the NAC to the trust in June 2010, to discuss the evaluation of the first year of the Mr Hollobone: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister to three-year pilot funded by the Department and I anticipate which categories of prisoner he wishes to give the right that the trust will shortly submit the evaluation of the to vote. [115962] pilot’s second year. Officials will meet with the Thalidomide Trust and the NAC to discuss the evaluation report Mr Harper: The Government will consider carefully before the end of this month. the recent judgment on prisoner voting in the case of Scoppola v. Italy (No. 3) and its implications for the UK and will respond in due course. Transplant Surgery: Bone Marrow Disorders

CABINET OFFICE Jessica Lee: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many patients received a bone marrow transplant Advisory Services of donated stem cells from adult donors and supplied by NHS Blood and Transplant in each of the last three Tom Greatrex: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet financial years; and what the average cost to hospitals Office pursuant to the answer of 15 May 2012, Official was of the supply of these cell units in each year. Report, column 92W, on advisory services, if he will [115406] publish correspondence between his Department and the Scottish Government on additional funding for Anne Milton: The following table shows the number not-for-profit advice services. [115408] of adult donor bone marrow stem cell units issued by NHS Blood and Transplant for the past three financial Mr Hurd: The Cabinet Office has not corresponded years and the associated costs to hospitals. with the Scottish Government on this matter. 103W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 104W

Cancer: Witham continuing drive to deliver even greater savings, we are currently holding an open process to sell the long leasehold Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office interest in Admiralty Arch. We have invited bids which what the number of cancer patients was in (a) Witham will provide value for money for the taxpayer, potential Town and (b) Witham constituency in each of the last options for increasing public access and preserve the five years. [115901] heritage of the building. My Department is consolidating its central property Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the usage to realise savings for the taxpayer and drive up responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have efficiency. To that end we are moving staff into 70 asked the authority to reply. Whitehall and the Treasury building at 1 Horse Guards Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2012: Road. Because we are transferring 22/26 Whitehall to As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I the Department for International Development later have been asked to reply to your recent question asking what the this year we have already moved most of our staff out number of cancer patients was in (a) Witham Town and (b) of there. Witham constituency in each of the last five years. [115901 ] The latest available figures for cancer registrations are for the year 2010. Please note that these numbers may not be the same as the number of people diagnosed with cancer, because one person may be diagnosed with more than one cancer. Jobseeker’s Allowance: Lancashire Cancer statistics are not available for individual towns, so figures have been provided for Braintree local authority district (LAD) instead, which includes the towns of Braintree, Halstead Paul Maynard: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet and Witham. Office (1) what recent estimate he has made of the The table provides the number of newly diagnosed cases of number of people aged (a) 18 to 24 and (b) over 50 in cancer registered for (a) Braintree local authority district and (b) receipt of jobseeker’s allowance and resident in Witham parliamentary constituency, for each year from 2006 to Blackpool North and Cleveleys constituency; [116075] 2010. (2) how many 16 to 24-year-olds in (a) Blackpool The latest published figures on incidence of cancer in England North and Cleveleys constituency and (b) Lancashire are available on the National Statistics website: claimed jobseeker’s allowance in each of the last five http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/cancer-registrations-in- years. [116076] england/2010/index.html Table 1: Number of newly diagnosed cases of cancer, Braintree local authority district and Witham parliamentary constituency, 2006-101,2,3 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Registrations responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Area 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 asked the authority to reply.

Braintree local 654 670 680 759 797 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2012: authority As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I district have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Questions asking Witham 455 428 443 497 490 what recent estimate has been made of the number of people aged parliamentary (a) 18-24 and (b) over 50 in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance and constituency resident in Blackpool North and Cleveleys constituency (116075); 1 Cancer is coded using the International Classification of Diseases and how many 16 to 24 year olds in (a) Blackpool North and Tenth Revision (ICD-10) as C00 to C97 excluding C44 non- Cleveleys constituency, and (b) Lancashire claimed jobseeker’s melanoma skin cancer. allowance in each of the last five years. (116076) 2 Newly diagnosed cases registered in each calendar year. 3 Figures are based on boundaries as of May 2012. The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles the number Source: of claimants of Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) from the Jobcentre Office for National Statistics Plus administrative system. Empty Property Table 1 shows the number of people aged 18 to 24 and 50 and over, resident in Blackpool North and Cleveleys constituency who were claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance in May 2012, which is Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the most recent period available. Office (1) if he will list the empty or largely empty Table 2 shows the number of people aged 16 to 24, resident in buildings owned by his Department; and if he will (a) Blackpool North and Cleveleys constituency and (b) Lancashire, make a statement; [110836] who were claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance in May 2008, 2009, (2) how many buildings owned by his Department 2010, 2011 and 2012, which is the latest date available. and the bodies for which he is responsible have been National and local area estimates for many labour market empty for more than two years; and if he will make a statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant statement. [110854] count are available on the NOMIS website at: http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Mr Maude: There are nine ancillary buildings at the Table 1: Number of persons1 aged 18 to 24 and 50 and over resident in Emergency Planning College’s site at Easingwold, Yorkshire Blackpool North and Cleveleys constituency claiming jobseeker’s which have been empty since long before the last general allowance, May 2012 election. The EPC’s private sector partner is currently Number seeking alternative use for these buildings. 18 to 24 years 50 and over Admiralty Arch is largely empty. It is not fit for a Blackpool North and 665 465 modern day office and could not be adapted without Cleveleys disproportionate costs to the taxpayer. As part of our 105W Written Answers9 JULY 2012 Written Answers 106W

Table 2: Number of persons1 aged 16 to 24 resident in Blackpool Non-departmental Public Bodies North & Cleveleys constituency, and Lancashire claiming jobseeker’s allowance Alex Cunningham: To ask the Minister for the Number Cabinet Office (1) how many vacancies there are on the Blackpool North and boards of non-departmental public bodies; [115200] May Cleveleys Lancashire (2) what changes his Department has made to the 2008 380 4,510 process for the appointment of individuals to non- 2009 640 8,435 departmental public bodies since May 2010; [115199] 2010 515 6,560 (3) what representations his Department has received 2011 575 6,620 from the chairs and officers of non-departmental 2012 665 7,255 public bodies on the time taken for appointments and 1 Age data are available only for computerised claims, which account reappointments to those bodies. [115202] for 99.7% of all claims. Note: Mr Maude: The current list of vacancies for the Data rounded to nearest 5. Source: Government’s public appointments can be found on the Jobcentre Plus administrative system. Cabinet Office website at: http://publicappointments.cabinetoffice.gov.uk Lost Working Days The Commission for Public Appointments regulates the majority of non-Executive appointments by Ministers Mr Ruffley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet to non-departmental public bodies. An updated version Office what the average number of working days lost of the Commissioner’s code of practice came into effect per person was in (a) his Department and (b) each of on 1 April 2012. The Government will shortly be publishing its agencies in each of the last three years. [115293] updated guidance on Managing and Making Public Appointments to take account of this updated code of Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office sickness absence currently practice. stands at an average of 2.5 working days and remains one of the lowest rates across Government Departments. Alex Cunningham: To ask the Minister for the The Cabinet Office sick absence data for the last three Cabinet Office how many recommendations of people years are published on the Cabinet Office website at: for appointment to non-departmental public bodies by http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/content/absence-data the Appointments Commission have been rejected by From June 2011 the Cabinet Office data also included Ministers since May 2010. [115201] the Central Office of Information (COI) which closed Mr Maude: None. on 31 March 2012. The sick absence statistics for the COI are published in their annual reports which are Public Sector: Procurement available at: Stephen Phillips: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet http://coi.gov.uk/aboutcoi.php?page=82 Office what steps his Department is taking to encourage The sick absence statistics for Buying Solutions are a transition to e-procurement in the public sector. published in their annual reports which are available at: [115433] http://gps.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/about-government- procurement-service/annual-report-and-accounts Mr Maude: The Government fully supports measures that simplify and streamline the procurement process, Ministers: Pay including the use of electronic procurement and invoicing. Under the principles of LEAN Sourcing all central Mr Bone: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office government procurements are required to use the Office if he will review the level of salaries paid to Ministers. Journal for the European Community (OJEU) compliant [115964] e-sourcing tools to help manage the full process. If an organisation does not have access to its own e-sourcing Mr Maude: In 2010 the Government set Ministers’ tools, it can use those available through the Government total salary remuneration at 5% less than the remuneration Procurement Service. equivalent Ministers in the former Administration received. Additionally, issuing and responding to bids via the These salary levels are fixed for the lifetime of this Government’s Dynamic Marketplace is done electronically, Parliament and there are no plans at present to review making the procurement process quicker and more them. cost-effective.

ORAL ANSWERS

Monday 9 July 2012

Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 1 HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Antisocial Behaviour...... 10 Draft Communications Data Bill ...... 15 Border Controls (Waiting Times)...... 17 Immigration (Integration)...... 8 British Crime Survey ...... 1 Metropolitan Police ...... 12 Crime (Local Communities)...... 14 Olympic Games (Security) ...... 9 Crime (Rural Areas)...... 6 Overseas Students ...... 4 Deportations (Dangerous Foreign Nationals) ...... 3 Policing ...... 10 Deportations (Human Rights Legislation)...... 16 Topical Questions ...... 18 Draft Communications Data Bill ...... 5 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Monday 9 July 2012

Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION...... 3WS HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Children’s Commissioner for England ...... 3WS Student Visas ...... 8WS JUSTICE...... 9WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Justice and Security Bill ...... 9WS AFFAIRS...... 4WS Flooding ...... 4WS TRANSPORT ...... 9WS Personal Independence Payment and Blue Badge FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 5WS Eligibility ...... 9WS P5 Conference of Nuclear Disarmament ...... 5WS TREASURY ...... 1WS Decommissioning Relief Deeds: Tax Certainty in HOME DEPARTMENT...... 7WS the UK Continental Shelf ...... 1WS Access to Elected Office for Disabled People...... 7WS ECOFIN...... 1WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Monday 9 July 2012

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 10W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1W Human Trafficking ...... 10W Broadband: Kent ...... 1W Lost Working Days ...... 12W Mobile Phones ...... 1W Offences Against Children ...... 11W Public Expenditure...... 2W Police: Surveillance ...... 11W UK Fashion and Textile Association...... 3W Prosecutions: Northamptonshire ...... 12W DEFENCE...... 3W Aircraft Carriers ...... 3W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 45W Parliamentary Armed Forces Scheme ...... 4W Business: Greater London...... 45W Public Expenditure...... 4W Cooperatives: Greater London...... 45W Submarines ...... 4W Credit Cards...... 46W Trident ...... 5W English Language: Education ...... 46W Higher Education: Scholarships...... 47W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 102W Regional Development Agencies: Pay ...... 49W Electoral Register...... 102W Teachers: Languages ...... 51W Parliamentary Private Secretaries: Visits Abroad ... 102W Voting Rights: Prisoners ...... 102W CABINET OFFICE...... 102W Advisory Services...... 102W EDUCATION...... 28W Cancer: Witham...... 103W Academies: Complaints ...... 28W Empty Property ...... 103W Education Funding Agency: Complaints ...... 30W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Lancashire...... 104W Education Maintenance Allowance...... 30W Lost Working Days ...... 105W Education: Warrington ...... 31W Ministers: Pay ...... 105W Free School Meals: Bassetlaw ...... 33W Non-departmental Public Bodies ...... 106W Further Education: Wentworth...... 34W Public Sector: Procurement...... 106W GCE A-level...... 35W GCSE ...... 36W HM Chief Inspector of Schools: Correspondence . 37W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 20W Lost Working Days ...... 37W Housing: Construction...... 20W Primary Education...... 37W Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION—continued HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Pupil Exclusions...... 38W Antisocial Behaviour: Alcoholic Drinks...... 77W Pupil Exclusions: Greater London ...... 38W Antisocial Behaviour Orders ...... 76W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 41W British Nationality: Assessments...... 77W School Milk ...... 42W Cleveland Police...... 76W Schools: Finance...... 43W Crime Reduction...... 78W Teachers: Pay ...... 44W Databases: Telecommunications ...... 78W Deportation ...... 78W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 22W Deportations (Human Rights Legislation)...... 76W Electricity Generation...... 22W Detention Centres...... 79W Electricity: Scotland...... 22W Drugs: Misuse...... 79W Energy: Prices ...... 23W Entry Clearances...... 80W Environment Protection: Employment...... 24W Europol...... 80W Green Deal Scheme...... 24W Extradition...... 80W Nuclear Power...... 25W Illegal Immigrants...... 81W Renewable Energy...... 25W Immigration...... 81W Renewable Energy: West Midlands ...... 26W Immigration Controls ...... 82W Warm Home Discount Scheme ...... 26W Licensed Premises: Security ...... 82W Misuse of Drugs Ministerial Group...... 82W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Offences Against Children: British Nationals AFFAIRS...... 16W Abroad ...... 83W Farms: Crops ...... 16W Passports: Scotland...... 83W Farms: Water ...... 16W Police: Job Satisfaction...... 83W Fisheries: Dee Estuary ...... 17W Schengen Agreement...... 84W Floods: Crops ...... 18W Sexual Offences: Victim Support Schemes ...... 84W Floods: West Midlands ...... 18W Theft: Metals ...... 84W Food: Prices ...... 18W Work Permits: Overseas Students...... 85W Government Procurement Card ...... 19W Livestock: Exports ...... 20W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 26W Rain Forests...... 19W Afghanistan ...... 26W Developing Countries: Biofuels...... 27W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 13W Parliamentary Private Secretaries: Visits Abroad ... 27W Belarus...... 13W Public Expenditure...... 28W Colombia ...... 13W South Sudan ...... 28W Egypt ...... 13W European Union: Legislative Competence ...... 14W JUSTICE...... 64W Israel...... 14W Children: Abuse ...... 64W Middle East ...... 14W HM Courts and Tribunals Service...... 64W Russia ...... 15W Work Capability Assessment: Appeals ...... 65W Syria...... 16W Visits Abroad ...... 16W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 21W Bank Services...... 21W HEALTH...... 85W Abortion ...... 85W PRIME MINISTER...... 10W Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse...... 86W Russia ...... 10W Atos ...... 86W Cancer ...... 87W TRANSPORT ...... 67W Continuing Care ...... 87W Air Traffic ...... 67W Diabetes ...... 88W Aviation: EU Action ...... 68W Dialysis Machines ...... 88W BMI ...... 68W Drugs: Misuse...... 88W Cable Cars ...... 69W Drugs: Pregnancy...... 89W Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency...... 69W Drugs: Prisons ...... 89W Driving: Licensing...... 70W Drugs: Safety ...... 89W Driving Under Influence: Drugs ...... 70W Drugs: Young Offenders ...... 90W Fuels: Rural Areas ...... 70W Health and Wellbeing Boards...... 91W Motor Vehicles: Insurance ...... 71W Health Services: Greater London...... 92W Parliamentary Private Secretaries: Visits Abroad ... 71W Kidneys: Diseases ...... 95W Pedestrian Crossings: Schools ...... 71W Mental Illness: Children...... 95W Public Expenditure...... 71W NHS: Public Opinion...... 96W Railways...... 72W Nutrition...... 97W Roads: Accidents ...... 73W Pharmacy...... 98W Tonnage Tax ...... 74W Public Health England...... 98W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 75W School Milk ...... 99W Surgery...... 100W TREASURY ...... 5W Thalidomide...... 100W Business: Greenhouse Gas Emissions...... 5W Thalidomide Trust ...... 101W Child Care Tax Credit...... 5W Transplant Surgery: Bone Marrow Disorders...... 101W Finance Act 2008 ...... 6W Gift Aid ...... 6W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 75W Income Tax ...... 7W Anti-social Behaviour ...... 75W LIBOR...... 7W Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY—continued WORK AND PENSIONS—continued National Infrastructure Plan...... 8W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 53W Parliamentary Private Secretaries: Visits Abroad ... 8W Employment Schemes ...... 54W Social Impact Bonds ...... 8W Employment Schemes: Pay ...... 54W Tax Avoidance ...... 8W Employment Schemes: Scotland ...... 54W Taxation...... 9W Housing Benefit: Scotland ...... 55W Taxation: Multinational Companies ...... 9W Housing Benefit: Young People...... 55W Taxation: Olympic Games 2012 ...... 9W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Graduates ...... 55W Welfare Tax Credits...... 10W Parliamentary Private Secretaries: Visits Abroad ... 55W Pensioners: Poverty ...... 55W WALES...... 1W Pensions: Females ...... 57W Cardiff Airport...... 1W Public Expenditure...... 57W Scotland...... 58W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 20W Social Security Benefits: Gwent ...... 58W Homosexuality: Marriage ...... 20W Social Security Benefits: Scotland ...... 59W Staff: Scotland ...... 59W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 51W Universal Credit...... 59W Atos Healthcare ...... 51W Work Capability Assessment...... 60W Disposable Income...... 52W Work Capability Assessment: Appeals ...... 64W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Monday 9 July 2012

List of Government and Principal Officers of the House

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for the Home Department

House of Lords Reform Bill [Col. 24] Motion for Second Reading—(Deputy Prime Minister) Debate adjourned

Business of the House (11 July) [Col. 134] Motion—(James Duddridge)—agreed to

Dangerous Driving [Col. 138] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 1WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1W] [see index inside back page]