April 2004 Number 28

Muslims in Hindu Nationalist A Conversation with Asghar Ali Engineer and Paul R. Brass

At a seminar held at the Ethics and Public Policy Center on answers. In the face of the growing political power of January 20, 2004, two experts on religious conflict in South over the last twenty-five years, are Asia discussed the possible impact of increasing religious Muslims an increasingly hard-pressed minority? What militancy—both Hindu and Muslim—on the Indian demo- are their political options, given the increasingly limited cratic state. The speakers were the Indian scholar and choice between a dominant Hindu nationalist BJP, which activist Asghar Ali Engineer and the American scholar of swept three of four major state elections in December Indian politics Paul R. Brassass. Their remarks in the edited and seems poised to win national elections this spring, transcript that follows lead to a lively discussion with other and a Congress Party in disarray? participants. Moderator Timothy Samuel Shah is a fellow at The Gujarat violence of 2002 is but the starkest in- the Ethics and Public Policy Center specializing in South Asia. dicator of a precarious situation. And recent terrorist The seminar co-sponsor was INFEMIT, a network of Third bombings in may suggest how a few Indian World theologians and activists led by Vinay Samuel, and fund- Muslims are responding to this precarious situation. ing was generously provided by Fieldstead and Company. Some reports suggest that the bombings were carried out by something called the Gujarat Muslim Revenge Timothy Shah: India, being a great and diverse country, Force. Yet while all this has been going on, Muslim- is one of those places where no matter what the ques- majority Kashmir has seen great progress towards peace tion, almost every answer is correct. Is India a country of and stability. terrible poverty? Yes. Is India a country of enormous wealth As we attempt to find the elusive truth about the and amazing economic growth and dynamism? Yes. political situation of India’s 130 million Muslims and what Is India the world’s largest democracy, with an as- it might mean for India’s secular democratic future, we tonishing record of political freedom and stability amidst have outstanding help from our two speakers. The first great challenges? Yes. Is India a country in which serious is Asghar Ali Engineer, who in over forty years of ex- and disabling political and social inequities effectively dis- haustive field work has investigated and documented enfranchise whole segments of the population? Yes. nearly every communal riot in post-independence India. Does India have an impressive record of maintain- He has written about Indian Muslims and Indian com- ing an essentially secular politics in a highly religious munalism in countless articles and in forty-five books. society? Yes. Has it seen the growth of powerful and ex- Dr. Engineer is currently the director of two organiza- tremist forms of religious nationalism? Yes. tions in Mumbai: the Centre for the Study of Society and As these paradoxes characterize India as a whole, Secularism, and the Institute of Islamic Studies. so they characterize Indian in particular. Do India’s Muslims—numbering 122.6 million according to one es- ASGHAR ALI ENGINEER timate—constitute the second largest Muslim population lthough communal violence has assumed a lot of in the world? Yes. Are they a large and distinguished pres- A significance in the last few years, the subject is ence in Indian history, culture, and politics? Yes. Do Mus- nothing new to post-independence India. We have been lims enjoy more civil and political freedoms in India than experiencing major communal riots since the first major in many Muslim-majority countries? Yes. riot in Jamshedpur in 1961. (Pre-independence India also But there are other questions that may demand other saw a lot of communal violence, but my own investiga- An Occasional Publication of the Ethics and Public Policy Center Center Conversations tions started with 1961.) In the 1960s we used to see Then came the case of Shah Bano, a Muslim woman around one communal riot a day, so more than 300 riots who went to court to demand financial support from her every year. ex-husband. The Muslim leadership adopted a very The rioting increased in intensity in the 1980s; ma- wrong stance on that issue. Although Islamic shari’a is jor communal riots occurred in Moradabad (1980), by no means rigid on this issue, these leaders made the Biharsharif (1981), Baroda and Meerut (1982), Nelli, case that to give maintenance for more than three Assam, where 4,000 people were killed (1983), Bombay months is a sin, a violation of divine law. The Qu’ran and Bhiwandi (1984), anti-Sikh riots in Delhi and other nowhere prescribes three months of iddat, the “waiting places (1984), Ahmedabad (1985), Meerut again (1987), period” between pronunciation and finalization of di- Bhagalpur (1989). In 1990 there were 300 riots when vorce, as the period L. K. Advani, then home minister and currently the deputy of maintenance. It “The Hindu masses are by and prime minister, rode his rath yatra (his travel chariot) only says to make across the country inciting Hindu activism. Riots occurred provision for Mus- large peaceful and secular. in Bombay in 1992 and 1993. Then came Gujarat 2002— lim divorcees, and They want to live in peace and not a communal riot but communal carnage, in which that is obligatory for harmony, but occasionally they more than 2,000 people were most brutally killed. pious Muslims. But can be incited, and communal So communal violence has been with us for a long to advance its own time, thanks in part to right-wing parties like the Jana political agenda, the violence takes place.” Sangh, which renamed Muslim leadership “The BJP officially adopted itself the BJP (Bharatiya used the slogan “Islam in danger” and brought Muslim Janata Party) in the masses into the streets. This of course created more secularism as its policy but then 1980s. The BJP officially anger in the minds of Hindus. became more violent. . . . It also adopted secularism as Rajiv Gandhi, who was prime minister at that time, adopted a slogan that only its policy but then be- was very wrongly advised to change the law, overturn- came more violent. In ing the Supreme Court judgment so that Muslim women Hindus can be truly secular.” the early 1980s the BJP would be governed by newly enacted legislation specific put a question mark on to the Muslim community. This action had a very ad- Indian secularism by calling it “pseudo-secularism,” verse impact on the Hindu mind and gave the BJP proof meaning that Indian secularism is Western in origin and of appeasement. is based on the “appeasement” of Muslims. So it is not And then the BJP unearthed a new issue: Ram- real secularism but pseudo-secularism. The BJP also janmabhoomi–Babri Masjid. As I said, when Mr. Advani adopted a slogan that only Hindus can be truly secular; took his “chariot journey,” traveling in a rath mounted no other religious group can be truly secular. on a modern Toyota, 300 riots took place. He went around And so a new debate started in Indian politics in the India and incited Hindus to rebuild the Ram- early 1980s about minority appeasement. The BJP, janmabhoomi (“Ram’s birthplace”) temple on the site of through its propaganda, popularized this myth, and the Babri mosque. In all the riots from the 1980s onwards, middle-class educated Hindus started repeating the one of the powerful causes was Ram-janmabhoomi– charge that Muslims are being appeased in India. And Babri Masjid. what was the example given? That Muslims are allowed The BJP rode to power on this Ram-janmabhoomi to marry four wives. It is a great privilege given to Mus- rath. The party had never received more than 11 percent lims—as if Muslim women were not part of the Muslim of the votes in parliamentary elections, but it got 29 per- community. It is a privilege for Muslim men only. cent in 1999. Yet it could not come to power on its own, The BJP kept on saying that Muslims are being ap- a sign of the strength of Indian secularism. The Hindu peased, even though the condition of Muslims is miser- masses are by and large peaceful and secular. They want able economically and educationally; they are on a par to live in peace and harmony, but occasionally they can with what we call “Dalits,” the low-caste Hindus. Many be incited, and communal violence takes place. So the indices even show that Muslims are falling below the Babri Masjid was demolished, and the BJP came to power scheduled castes, because scheduled castes have reser- in an alliance with secular parties known as the Indian vations through which their members can get jobs, and National Democratic Alliance. Muslims don’t have reservations. Nonetheless, the BJP Most of the states were ruled by Congress Party gov- went on emphasizing that Muslims were being appeased, ernments and remained somewhat peaceful. Gujarat was creating more and more anger in the minds of middle- the only state where the BJP was in power by itself, with- class Hindus. out an alliance. And because the BJP came to power there 2 Muslims in Hindu Nationalist India by itself, the kind of carnage seen in 2002 became pos- publicly on TV that they will repeat the Gujarat “experi- sible. In a coalition government, they are constrained ment” in other states. And what was this experiment? by their secular partners. But in Gujarat, where they are Kill 2,000 Muslims and then win the election with a in power by themselves, they can easily kill 2,000 Mus- two-thirds majority. Shockingly, when Prime Minister lims. BJP leaders themselves described Gujarat as a labo- Vajpayee was asked, “Will you repeat the Gujarat ratory for right-wing Hindu forces. model?” instead of saying “No” he asked, “Would you Before and after the violence in Gujarat, the mili- repeat Godhra?” [referring to the place where a train tant Hindu leaders K. S. Sudarshan of the RSS [Rashtriya carrying Hindu pilgrims was set afire by a Muslim mob; Swayamsevak Sangh] and Bal Thackeray of Shiv Sena this precipated the Gujarat carnage]. In other words, if publicly said that Hitler was their model, and that only a you repeat Godhra, we will repeat Gujarat. So, as I said, person like Hitler can solve the problems of India; other- we feel that fascism is knocking on the door. If we don’t wise these minorities will always remain too aggressive really work to strengthen secularism, it will be difficult and will prevent the Hindu rashtra [nation] from coming to stop the tide of fascism. into existence. Gujarat showed how such an approach Now the BJP is cleverly combining various policies. can work. After talking of the “Gujarat model” in Himachal Pradesh Feelings were so intensely provoked that highly edu- last year, the BJP lost badly. Congress won with a two- cated Hindus, if you talked to them, were justifying that thirds majority even though 98 percent of the popula- violence. At the same time, many Hindus in Gujarat tion in Himachal Pradesh is Hindu. This shows the ex- maintained their sanity and opposed the carnage, but tent of diversity, and how different the situations are in they were helpless to stop the actions of those well- different states in India. So now the BJP strategy is to armed and fanatical mobs. Low-caste Hindus and tribals talk of development on one hand and to use Hindutva were used to kill Muslims in Gujarat. Many people told [“Hindu-ness”] propaganda on the other, in order to carry us during our investigations that Dalits were given 500 both the Hindu middle classes and the Hindu masses. In rupees (around $12) and a bottle of liquor to kill one the December 2003 state elections, while they declared, Muslim. And tribals were told, “If you don’t kill Muslims, “Now we will talk only of developmental issues,” they we will kill you.” So they went and killed Muslims. Gen- simultaneously used Hindu nationalist organizations in erally communal violence takes place in urban areas, their campaigning. They set up new organizations such but in Gujarat, more violence took place in rural areas as the Hindu Jagran Manch—the “Hindu Awakening because that is where the tribals were. Front”—to carry out systematic Hindutva propaganda, Why incite tribals? The BJP wanted to get tribal votes. not from the official BJP platform but in a parallel cam- In the Gujarat election, tribal votes that had always gone paign. These other organizations delivered inciting to Congress went to the BJP for the first time. The same speeches and distributed leaflets full of hatred for Mus- thing has occurred in subsequent elections; for example, lims and Christians along with the election card (show- in three state elections in December 2003 (Madhya ing the voting-booth location) in . Pradesh, Rajasthan, and Chhattisgarh), tribals mainly In Chhattisgarh, a tribal-majority state, the main is- voted for the BJP. sue was conversion to Christianity. Former Chhattisgarh “Many people told us during our Hindu nationalists chief minister Ajit Jogi, who was caught on camera ac- call tribals vanavasi, cepting a bribe for a mining license, was mainly respon- investigations that Dalits were that is, “forest dwell- sible for the anti-Christian movement there. He claimed given 500 rupees (around $12) ers.” They are sys- that Christians are converting tribals to Christianity. This and a bottle of liquor to kill one tematically working line proved very effective: tribals voted for the BJP, and among them, estab- the BJP won the election. Muslim in Gujarat.” lishing vanavasi ash- So in every state the BJP studies the situation and rams, apparently for chooses a strategy very cleverly. To say that they have the tribals’ welfare but really intended to “Hinduize” stopped talking about Hindutva is a sheer illusion. The tribals and give them Hindu identity. Unfortunately, hate propaganda will go on. these groups receive a lot of funds from NRIs (non- Let me finish by responding to two or three ques- resident Indians) living in the United States. tions raised in the invitation to this meeting. On the fu- In Gujarat we felt fascism knocking on the door ture of minorities, particularly Muslims: I would not say for the first time. We had faith in Indian secularism. We that their future is in peril, for two reasons. One, India is continue to have faith in Indian secularism. India is a immensely diverse, and this diversity works against any great country, a country of bewildering diversity. But communal propaganda. Two, the mood of the masses after the carnage in Gujarat, BJP leaders started saying changes. At one time they may vote for the BJP, but at 3 Center Conversations another time they may vote against the BJP. I’m sure de- cultural diversity as well. This diversity, among Hindus mocracy will survive in India, because it is not possible and among Muslims, will ensure that India does not be- to homogenize Hindus, let alone the whole of India. Class come a fascist state. differences are very sharp. The caste hierarchy is very rigid, and this consciousness is increasing day by day Timothy Shah: Thank you, Dr. Engineer. Next it’s my among low-caste Hindus. That works against BJP prop- pleasure to introduce Paul Brass, emeritus professor of aganda. For example, their alliance with Dalits in Uttar political science and international studies at the Univer- Pradesh has broken down. sity of Washington, Seattle. Dr. Brass is among the most Because of India’s social structure, diversity, and outstanding scholars of Indian politics in the last gen- changing political needs, I don’t think the BJP can hope eration. He has published fourteen books— most recently to get reelected again and again. As long as secularism The Production of Hindu-Muslim Violence in Contempo- is maintained, there is a measure of safety for Muslims rary India—and numerous articles on comparative and and other minorities. South Asian politics, ethnic politics, and collective vio- Also, the whole outlook of Muslims has changed. lence. His work has been based on extensive field re- There was a time during the 1980s when they adopted search in India during numerous visits since 1961. an aggressive posture, but since the demolition of Babri Masjid and the ensuing riots they have realized how di- PAUL R. BRASS sastrous this aggressive posture is. They have become want to give a brief condensation of some of the main very sober and sane and have realized that what they I themes in my latest book, which as Tim mentioned is need is more education and better economic opportuni- called The Production of Hindu-Muslim Violence in Con- ties. You will not find Muslim leaders making inflamma- temporary India. I used the term “production” with con- tory statements anymore. Even the Hindu middle classes siderable deliberation, because, as you will see, that sum- have started saying that extremism is now among Hin- marizes in a word my argument about Hindu-Muslim dus and no more among Muslims. violence in contemporary India. So the demolition of Babri Masjid was, in a way, a There are very severe obstacles to the understand- watershed for Muslims. It transformed their thinking. ing of a subject like this. One is what I call blame dis- Sometimes something good comes out of evil. Of course, placement, a process by which attention is directed away the Gujarat carnage disturbed Muslims very seriously, and from the perpetrators of violence and other anti-social Muslims do live under a sense of acute insecurity, aware actions onto generalized objects. Blame, instead of fall- that anything can happen at any time. But the way the ing on specific groups, organizations, and individuals that National Commission of Human Rights in India took up are responsible, is displaced onto categories such as the the Muslim cause, and the Supreme Court’s role in the general public, the mass of the people, politicians in gen- few judgments it delivered and in reprimanding the eral, or the police in general. Gujarat chief minister—these were signs of hope for the Deeply implicated in this process of blame displace- Muslim minority in India. ment, of diverting attention away from the obvious, are A second question posed for this seminar was whether social scientists themselves. In their search for causes of fascism would prevail in India. I think it’s very unlikely. the obvious, through various forms of misplaced causal The conditions are very different from Germany. I don’t analysis and reasoning they may ignore the role of well- think it would be possible for any authoritarian, totalitar- known leaders and groups whose purpose is to precipi- ian, or fascistic party to establish fascism in India. The BJP tate violent occasions. has realized, particularly since the violence between I must reluctantly mention a book that I see as an Assamese and Bihari Hindus last fall [in November 2003, egregious example of this: Ethnic Conflict and Civic Life Assamese students attacked Bihari settlers whom they saw by Ashutosh Varshney. It’s a book that completely frees as competition for prized railway jobs], that Hindus are a organizations in the Hindutva family from responsibility diverse community. This violence was highly embarrass- for the perpetration of riots, especially in the last ten or ing for the BJP; it shattered their dream of homogeneity fifteen years. Among these organizations are the BJP, the among Hindus. They have realized that homogeneity is Vishwa Hindu Parishad, and the Bajrang Dal, an organi- impossible in a country as diverse as India. zation devoted to the cult of violence.The Sangh Parivar, And the Muslim community in India is as diverse as or the Hindutva family, is not the only set of organiza- the Hindu community. There are not only Shiites and tions that has produced riots in post-independence In- Sunnis but also many other sects and different religious dia. Riots have been produced by Congress politicians, communities among Muslims. And in addition to this by politicians from many other parties, by various other religious diversity among Muslims, there is linguistic and organizations. But make no mistake about it: in the last 4 Muslims in Hindu Nationalist India ten or fifteen years, the main perpetrators of Hindu- out the subcontinent where Hindus and Muslims live in Muslim violence are the members of the BJP, the RSS, juxtaposition and where conflicts of this type happen all and other organizations in the Hindutva family. the time. This ongoing situation will not be resolved sim- The production of violence is a process, not an event. ply by a settling of the Babri Masjid issue. It’s a process that takes place in specific localities, spe- A second aspect of this process of memorialization cific cities and towns, but has also a much broader com- is the naming of localities or enclaves in cities and towns pass. It cannot be entirely explained by the particular where there are large Muslim populations “mini- demographic, social, or other characteristics of these .” Anybody who talks to militant Hindus can places. Although it is a process that takes place in spe- be directed to such areas. The visitor will be told, “Here cific localities, it occurs within a general frame. That frame is the boundary between India and mini-.” is what I call the “communal discourse,” a term I prefer to Third, there are Muslim institutions throughout In- “communal ideology.” By communal discourse I mean a dia that exist as memorials, in the Hindu mind, of the hegemonic discourse that pervades contemporary Indian atrocities and mischief that Muslims have perpetrated in society, especially amongst Hindus. This discourse has India. One is the Aligarh Muslim University, probably the three central elements that claim to define Hindu-Muslim most famous Muslim relations both past and present, elements that I call histori- institution in India. “Make no mistake about it: in the cization, memorialization, and demonization. This great university last ten or fifteen years, the main The historicization in this communal discourse defines was founded in the late Indian history as a history of the relations between Hin- nineteenth century by perpetrators of Hindu-Muslim dus and Muslims going back for a thousand years or more. the Muslim leader Syed violence are the members of the In this historical or pseudo-historical account, the Mus- Ahmed Khan. Today it BJP, the RSS, and other organi- lims are seen as invaders who came into India, conquered is memorialized in the zations in the Hindutva family.” the indigenous Hindu population, and wreaked havoc on Hindu mind for one Hindu institutions and temples. The history of India in this thing: as the so-called particular discourse is defined as a history of antagonism arsenal for Pakistan, because there were people at the between two great communities, Hindus and Muslims. An- Aligarh Muslim University who were advocates of the cre- other element in the historicization is separatism, the idea ation of the state of Pakistan. Hindus continue to view it that throughout their as a place where ideas of partition and disloyalty to the “Blame, instead of falling on history, Hindus and Indian state persist. Muslims have been Another institution that has become similarly me- specific groups, organizations, separate. This is es- morialized (and for this the United States deserves a and individuals that are respon- pecially true of the share of the responsibility) is the Deobandi Institution. sible, is displaced onto categories Muslims, who have This institution is quite different from the Aligarh Mus- such as the general public, acted separately and lim University; it is a center for Muslim education and ultimately chose to propagation of the Muslim faith. It has been character- politicians in general, or the separate from India ized by politicians in both the United States and India police in general.” itself at the time of as an Islamist breeding-ground, responsible for the independence. Their spread of madrassahs throughout the subcontinent and separatism, it is asserted, led to the partition of the Indian into Afghanistan and responsible for the creation of the subcontinent and the ensuing violence. Taliban. The second aspect of this communal discourse is The third element of this discourse is what I call what I call memorialization: calling attention throughout demonization: the portrayal of the Muslim population as the subcontinent to signs of this maleficent Muslim pres- prone to violence, as prolific, as Pakistan sympathizers, ence. Among the figures, institutions, and objects that and as “cross-border terrorists,” a term used by militant the memorializers point to are the many mosques, of Hindus and other Indian nationalists in reference to the which the Babri Masjid was only one. I have sometimes actions of militant Muslims, allegedly supported by Pak- thought, all right, let the Hindu militants have the spot istan, in the longstanding dispute over Kashmir between on which the Babri Masjid was located to erect a temple the two countries. The blanket use of the latter term by to Ram. This might lead to a temporary resolution and Indian leaders has increased since September 11, allow- get the BJP off the hook temporarily. They can say, “Here, ing the Indian government to include its efforts to de- this is settled.” stroy the Muslim insurrectionary movements in Kash- But there are similar mosques in every city and town mir as a legitimate part of the global war against terrorism in northern and western India. There are sites through- led by the United States. 5 Center Conversations A fourth aspect of the communal discourse is not volves three phases. The first is preparation and rehearsal. a separable element but pervades it all: body symbol- In cities and towns in India where there are large Muslim ism. The conflict between Hindus and Muslims is pun- populations living side by side with Hindu populations, gently pictured as involving dismemberment and vivi- there is an ongoing process intended to keep tensions section of the Hindu body by Muslims. The partition of alive. Riots do not India is considered a vivisection. Even Nehru, who did just happen from a “The myths can be summarized not have an ounce of communalism in his body, used spark. They are not under three headings: that collec- terms such as this in his speech to the constituent as- earthquakes. They sembly in 1947. These terms continue to be used. The are prepared. Now tive violence is a spontaneous Muslim body, by contrast, is said to be “pampered.” But this doesn’t mean occurrence . . . that riots are there’s another term that militant Hindus use for what that a particular riot created by mob fury . . . and that should be done to Muslims, and this has been said to is planned from be- they arise from mass hatreds.” me personally by RSS people: they should be butchered. ginning to end, al- This is what has been done in Gujarat and other places. though sometimes it Hindus are described in bodily terms as having been is. The perpetrators of collective violence are working all lethargic. They need to wake up, and they need to learn the time to maintain communal animosities—drawing at- how to kill, and they need to retaliate against Muslim tention to the elopement of a Muslim boy with a Hindu bodies for all the injuries that have been inflicted upon girl and calling it a kidnapping, or seeing a cow dead on the Hindu body. the side of the street and then spreading the word that a So this is my first point about the production of cow has been poisoned, which implies that a Muslim has Hindu-Muslim violence in India: it is justified and partly poisoned the cow. News of this sort spreads throughout instigated by a communal discourse that is pervasive in the riot network of the Sangh Parivar. Indian society. The second stage is activation and enactment, just The second general point I want to make concerns as in the production of a play. There are specific circum- an underlying set of assumptions about collective vio- stances under which activation occurs. Those circum- lence that affects the understanding of Hindu-Muslim stances, as I’ll point out in a minute, are political. When violence. These assumptions are based on myths and the time comes for a riot, the instigators will go and re- falsehoods about how violence of this type originates cruit in specific localities and pay people to carry out acts and is carried out. of violence. When it is time to produce the violence, the The myths and falsehoods can be summarized un- signal is given, certain actions take place, and a riot is der three headings. First is the idea that collective vio- produced. lence is a spontaneous occurrence, that Hindu-Muslim The third phase, one I have particularly emphasized, violence flows from the Hindu-Muslim discourse that I’ve is the critical phase: explanation and interpretation. You just talked about. Prejudices and hatreds exist in socie- explain how the violence happened. You interpret it as a ties, and all you need is a spark to light them for people communal conflagration—for example, as a virus that to come out in the streets and kill one another sponta- arose in some place and spread to other areas, or as an neously. Second, there is the related notion that riots are earthquake. All sorts of explanations can be given to created by mob fury, rather than by deliberate, planned draw attention away from what actually occurred. This actions. Third is the view that these riots arise from mass third stage is thoroughly infused with blame displace- hatreds. The latest perpetration of this kind of myth again ment, to such an extent that the actual circumstances, comes from Ashutosh Varshney, who has invented a new the actual participants, the actual producers of riots, are term for collective violence: “ethnic earthquakes.” But forgotten. Virtually nothing happens to them, and they these things are not earthquakes; nor do they start like rarely go to jail. If they do go to jail, they’re soon released. conflagrations from a spark. What is happening is en- The best evidence of this is what has been going on in tirely mischaracterized by such metaphors. Gujarat recently, where the perpetrators have been let I too use a metaphor, but it’s a metaphor of a theat- off the hook. rical drama with three phases. When I say a drama, I’m There are many cities and towns in India where ri- not trying to trivialize what happens in Hindu-Muslim ots occur from time to time, perhaps every five years. violence. My intention is to indicate elements that are And in these places where riots appear to be endemic like a rather grizzly theatrical drama that can be identi- there are institutionalized riot systems. This system con- fied as part of the process by which Hindu-Muslim vio- stitutes a veritable division of labor. There are scouts and lence is produced. informants who report incidents such as a “poisoned Like the production of a drama, riot production in- cow” or a “kidnapping”; rumor mongers who magnify or 6 Muslims in Hindu Nationalist India manufacture rumors; propagandists who create mes- in the neighborhoods of these cities and towns, even sages to be conveyed to the press and the public; ver- though the police know well where they are located. nacular journalists who publish these messages in the So when do riots happen? The political contexts for form of news; poster plasterers; recruiters who bring out large-scale riots are mass mobilizations and elections, crowds—often of students from local colleges and of especially when both occur at the same time, and the at- criminals from the slums—to burn, loot, and kill. titudes and actions of the state and local administration. But it’s not just hoodlums who are doing this. Politi- The second general context for riot production is cians too are part of the riot system; they either pacify the the presence of a Muslim population of a substantial size. crowds or enflame them, depending upon whether the time Third, there has to be a political space for large-scale is right for a riot or not. Politicians and lawyers protect the riots to occur—for example, the change in the political rioters and get them out of jail if they’re arrested, and law- configuration that in the last ten or fifteen years has been yers defend the criminals who have committed acts of vio- provided by the decline of Congress and other secular lence. A Hindu lawyer may defend a Muslim criminal who parties. But how do you explain the occurrence of riots has been paid to go out and kill a Hindu. at one particular site and not another? It has to do with Also implicated are the media, which publicize false the political configuration at the local level: the balance reports and rumors that incite violence, and assign blame between political parties, and a calculation as to whether to the victims or to mob fury. And finally, manufacturers a riot will produce Hindu consolidation that will give a of weapons continue to produce bombs and small arms clear majority to parties like the BJP in the next election.

DISCUSSION Timothy Shah: Thank you, Dr. Brass. that criticism here in Washington, him, for heaven’s sake? It’s another Now we’d like to hear questions and because Varshney’s view, frankly, is example of the deplorable state of comments from others. [All partici- not really determinative in policy- the political science profession that pants will be identified at the end.] making circles, while Huntington’s they swarm around Sam Hunting- view is. We really need scholars to ton—his hypotheses appear in every Jonah Blank: I’d like to make a brief be challenging this thesis if in fact other book, if not nine out of ten comment on Ashutosh Varshney’s they disagree with it. books. book for those in the audience who On a policy-making level also, it My preference is normally not to may not have read it. In my opinion, pains me greatly that the United take on the false arguments of par- Professor Varshney does not argue States government, of which I’m a ticular people but to produce my own for civic engagement as being an all- part, has been utterly silent about independent evaluation and work. determinative factor, and he cer- one of the great tragedies of India in That’s what I’ve tried to do all my life. tainly doesn’t argue for a Samuel recent years, the Gujarat killings. I Huntington essentialist argument, think that as citizens we should be K. M. Rao: Dr. Engineer, initially you that Hindus and Muslims are fated directing criticism at our own gov- spoke about appeasement of Mus- to fight against each other; nor does ernment officials to urge them to lims in India, and you mentioned one he try to downplay the importance speak out more, and as scholars we example. But I see it as a fact that of political involvement and manipu- should be challenging the intellec- government policy under Congress lation in these things. So one can tual basis that sees Hindus and Mus- Party rule was appeasement of Mus- accept or reject Professor Varshney’s lims as being inherently at war with lims—and it continues to be so. argument, but I think it’s important each other. The government of Karnataka at least to recognize that he is not gets 700 million rupees in tax rev- arguing a Sam Huntington line. Paul R. Brass: Well, as for Ashutosh enue from the temples of Karnataka, I think that as scholars both Pro- Varshney, I’ll be glad to send you a and out of that they use 500 million fessor Engineer and Professor Brass fuller statement of my disagree- rupees for Muslim mosques and take serious issue, as I do, with the ments with him that has been circu- madrassahs and 100 million for Huntington view of the clash of civi- lating as an e-mail. But as for Samuel Hindu temples, and something like lizations. It’s very important to make Huntington—what can you do about 120 million for churches. When you 7 Center Conversations see that kind of unfairness—taking less, and the government wouldn’t of more positive historical figures— from the temples and using it for have to pay a subsidy. The issue re- great writers, for example. madrassahs—you can’t help feeling quires some thinking on the part of that Hindus are being treated un- Muslim leaders also. Paul R. Brass: Well, yes, I agree that justly. Now about Gujarat: nobody has the history of India in the last one The other issue is the two billion yet been able to demonstrate who is hundred years or so has moved in rupees spent by the state on the responsible for the attack at Godhra. the opposite direction, focusing on Muslim hajj [pilgrimage to Mecca], It has been about two years, and still and not on Akbar, and whereas Hindu pilgrims actually pay the government has not been able to displacing the Urdu language in the taxes. I don’t see that as secularism; put anything forward in a court of law schools so Muslim students in north I see it as a total appeasement. proving that these Muslims were India finish their schooling without Regarding Gujarat: I constantly involved. learning to write Urdu, in the Persian- hear that the riots were a planned But okay, let’s accept the allega- Arabic script. I think changing the attack. I see this as a completely tion that a group of Muslims living history books, trying to teach a spirit biased opinion. It’s almost the same near the railway station set afire the of tolerance, focusing on heroes who kind of theory as calling Septem- train carrying Hindu pilgrims. Can can be identified as secular or who ber 11 a planned event so that the you compare government involve- played a more positive role in Hindu- United States could go after Iraq. ment in carnage like that in Gujarat Muslim relations, providing some with the involvement of a group of support for the Urdu language—all Asghar Ali Engineer: The figures citizens at Godhra? Can these two these things are worthwhile. you are quoting about temples and things be compared? But this business of idealizing mosques are being systematically The RSS talks of building charac- heroes from the past is in itself a dan- spread by the RSS, and people have ter but indulges in the highest degree gerous exercise, and that’s part of the neither the inclination nor the time of violence. As Professor Brass points problem. It’s an aspect of national- to verify them. I have gone through out, violence is a production, and ism everywhere, including the United all these statistics, and I collect all this production involves lies, propa- States. It would be good to have a these documents. It’s very doubtful ganda. The RSS runs 32,000 schools more balanced history, but you know, that the figures you mentioned are today. If you examine their textbooks, history is what we make of it. authentic. Two billion rupees for hajj you will find it hard to believe the Aurangzeb may not have been that subsidy? Where did you get this fig- kind of hate propaganda that is be- bad and Akbar may not have been ure? It is 150 crores in India, which ing taught. No governments are tak- that good, and it will take historians would come to thirty-three million ing action, including the Congress- many years to come up with revised dollars. To say billions of rupees is led state governments. interpretations. Moreover, in the unfair. India is now polarized between United States a spirit of tolerance is There is a reason why this subsidy Hindus and Muslims as never before. imbibed in the schools, but it certainly was given. Pilgrims used to go on the There has always been conflict, but doesn’t solve all our problems. hajj by ship. Then the ship was dis- never such polarization. continued, and suddenly pilgrims had Wajahat Habibullah: I have a ques- to travel to Saudi Arabia by air. But Har Swarup Singh: I come from a tion for each of the speakers. For Dr. how many can afford airfare to go on “mini-Pakistan” in western Uttar Engineer: As Muslims in India, I the hajj? Hardly 5 percent of Muslims. Pradesh and the Uttaranchal district. think we are all very much aware Air India was asked to provide the First I must congratulate these two that the root of the problem really service, but it has been shown that scholars for a wonderful analysis. lies in the very bitter legacy of parti- the Air India hajj fare is far higher Now how do we proceed from here? tion. I’m an Indian Muslim myself, than the general fare available to It’s a given that the number of Mus- and you and I know that the Mus- Saudi Arabia from India. I always tell lims in India is too large to find any lims in India believe that Pakistan Muslims, please, don’t accept this solution to communal discord. So was a massive mistake, and that subsidy, because hajj is to be per- let’s talk about the positive things. there’s not a lot of support for that formed when you have the means to Let’s talk about Akbar the Great [a kind of concept anymore. How do do it. When you take a subsidy, you tolerant sixteenth-century Mogul you see recent developments—for invite this kind of violent communal emperor] and not about Aurangzeb example, the SAARC [South Asia As- propaganda. If chartered planes were [an intolerant successor]. If some- sociation for Regional Cooperation] allowed, Muslims would pay much body talks of Aurangzeb, let us talk Conference earlier this month [Janu- 8 Muslims in Hindu Nationalist India ary 2004] and the agreements that should be abolished, and that there cally between the Jewish and the were made there? Do you feel that should be free movement in the sub- Muslim communities, do provide a this bodes well for the future of continent. I would certainly con- kind of domestic security risk. They Hindu-Muslim relations in India? gratulate our Prime Minister, who can inflame tensions. My question for Dr. Brass is this: has taken the initiative in improving You have presented a very graphic relations with Pakistan and with Sri Asghar Ali Engineer: In my opinion, account of how these riots take Lanka. diversity is a greater strength for de- place, how they are organized and mocracy. I always emphasize three how they burst out in different parts Paul R. Brass: I should be better d’s: democracy, diversity, and dia- of the country. But there are also prepared to answer this question logue. Diversity sustains democracy, other areas where this does not hap- about Lucknow. Though I lived in and dialogue sustains diversity. Situ- pen, even though they have a very Lucknow, I never really analyzed its ations can be inflamed by hostile substantial Muslim population. Take political configuration, and I can’t propaganda or particular events. The Lucknow, for instance, a city that is give a well-supported argument tension between Jews and Muslims part of the same state as Aligarh and about why there are no riots there. in the United States will not turn into Meerut; it’s also the Prime Minister’s I would have to check the political widespread violence because the constituency. It is a city where the configuration. I’d have to look at government will not permit it to do Urdu language is a language of all the electoral history and the elec- so. In India, two things are different: the communities, although earlier it tion statistics to see whether the first, there is constant hate propa- was identified with the Muslims. political configuration is such that ganda, and second, the government Why is it that riots don’t happen in a it was unnecessary to produce either remains indifferent to what is city like Lucknow but do happen in riots in order to generate a Hindu happening on the street or gets in- a city like Aligarh? consolidation. volved on one side. Of course, Lucknow is not free of Asghar Ali Engineer: I think the de- riots. There are Shia-Sunni riots that Timothy Shah: I’m afraid we’re now velopments at the SAARC Confer- have displaced Muslim antagonism a bit past our time. I’d like to thank ence are extremely significant and towards Hindus. In other words, all of you and especially our distin- will have a great impact on Hindu- there’s so much division amongst guished speakers. There are clearly Muslim relations in India. Pakistan Muslims on a Shia-Sunni basis that countervailing trends: reason for has been a very sore point in Hindu- they’re preoccupied. As for the gen- optimism in the aftermath of the Muslim relations. Muslims are seen eral environment of Lucknow, its SAARC Conference, but less reason as Pakistanis. “genteel culture” is very striking and for optimism given the structure of Improvement of relations be- very lovely, but I would not place extremist Hindu nationalist ideology. tween the two countries and people- much emphasis on that. My argu- It will clearly be a fascinating thing to-people contact are very impor- ment is that political calculations, to watch in the coming years. tant. A number of Hindus who have political organization, can surmount gone to Pakistan have come back this culture of gentility. DISCUSSION PARTICIPANTS highly impressed. They have told me, Asghar Ali EngineerEngineer, Centre for the “The people of Pakistan are so Timothy Shah: We have time for one Study of Society and Secularism, friendly, so hospitable.” Similarly, more question. Mumbai, India; Paul R. BrassBrass, pro- when Pakistani Muslims come to In- fessor emeritus, University of Wash- dia they go back highly impressed. Sameera Daniels: Dr. Engineer, you ington, Seattle; Timothy ShahShah, All the time they are told one thing mentioned earlier that the diversity Ethics and Public Policy Center; about Hindus, but when they come of India was a sort of a check on Jonah BlankBlank, United States Senate; to India and experience the warm communalism, but much of the evi- Sameera DanielsDaniels, Washington, D.C.; hospitality extended by Hindus they dence you presented suggests that Wajahat HabibullahHabibullah, U.S. Institute are highly impressed. in fact it’s not. I think that’s also the of Peace; K. M. RaoRao, NRI Secular I’m of the strong view that visas case here in the United States: ten- Forum; and Har Swarup SinghSingh, between South Asian countries sions between communities, specifi- retired diplomat.

9 THE CENTER AND “CONVERSATIONS”

he Ethics and Public Policy Center was established in 1976 to clarify and reinforce the Tbond between the Judeo-Christian moral tradition and the public debate over domestic and foreign policy issues. Its program includes research, writing, publication, and confer- ences. The Center affirms the political relevance of the great Western ethical imperatives— respect for the dignity of every person, individual freedom and responsibility, justice, the rule of law, and limited government. It maintains that moral reasoning is an essential comple- ment to empirical calculation in the shaping of public policy. “Center Conversationsversations,” edited by senior editor Carol Griffith, are based on conferences and seminars related to various projects. They cost $3 per copy, postpaid. Among the titles are:

14. Religion, Culture, and International 21. Just War and Jihad: Conflict After September 11 Two Views of War Samuel P. Huntington James Turner Johnson and Christopher Hitchens 15. Islam: A Primer Roy Mottahedeh and Jay Tolson 22. Political Islam Gilles Kepel and Jeffrey Goldberg 16. Religion and Terrorism Bruce Hoffman and Jeffrey Goldberg 23. The Rise of Global Christianity Philip Jenkins and David Brooks 17. Hindu Nationalism vs. Islamic Jihad Cedric Prakash, Teesta Setalvad, Kamal 24. Islam and the Prospects for Chenoy, Sumit Ganguly, Sunil Khilnani, Democracy and Jonah Blank Khaled Abou El Fadl, Sohail Hashmi, Qamar-ul Huda, and Zainab Al-Suwaij 18. Iraq: Making Ethnic Peace after Saddam Kanan Makiya and Patrick Clawson 25. Evangelicals and Israel Gerald R. McDermott 19. The Genetic Revolution and American Democracy 26. Evangelicals, Islam, and Eric Cohen and William Kristol Humanitarian Aid Lamin Sanneh 20. War in Iraq: Is It Just? Christopher Hitchens, William Galston, 27. Why Genesis? Why Now? and George Weigel Leon R. Kass

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