DAILY

YOUR VOICE IN PARLIAMENT

THETHE SECOND FIRST MEETING MEETING OF THE O SECONDF THE FIFTH SESSION SESSION OF THE OF THE ELEVENTWELFTH PARLIAMENTTH PARLIAMENT FRIDAY 13 NOVEMBER 2020

MIXEDENGLISH VERSION VERSION HANSARDHANSARD NO. NO: 193 200

DISCLAIMER Uno cial Hansard This transcript of Parliamentary proceedings is an uno cial version of the Hansard and may contain inaccuracies. It is hereby published for general purposes only. The nal edited version of the Hansard will be published when available and can be obtained from the Assistant Clerk (Editorial). THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY SPEAKER The Hon. Phandu T. C. Skelemani PH, MP. DEPUTY SPEAKER The Hon. Mabuse M. Pule, MP. (Mochudi East)

Clerk of the National Assembly - Ms B. N. Dithapo Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly - Mr L. T. Gaolaolwe Learned Parliamentary Counsel - Ms M. Mokgosi Assistant Clerk (E) - Mr R. Josiah CABINET His Excellency Dr M. E. K. Masisi, MP. - President

His Honour S. Tsogwane, MP. (Boteti West) - Vice President Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Hon. K. N. S. Morwaeng, MP. (Molepolole South) - Administration

Hon. K. T. Mmusi, MP. (Gabane-Mmankgodi) - Minister of Defence, Justice and Security Hon. Dr L. Kwape, MP. (Kanye South) - Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation Hon. E. M. Molale, MP. (Goodhope-Mabule ) - Minister of Local Government and Rural Development Hon. K. S. Gare, MP. (Moshupa-Manyana) - Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security Minister of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation Hon. P. K. Kereng, MP. (Specially Elected) - and Tourism Hon. Dr E. G. Dikoloti MP. (Mmathethe-Molapowabojang) - Minister of Health and Wellness Hon. T.M. Segokgo, MP. (Tlokweng) - Minister of Transport and Communications Hon. K. Mzwinila, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. T. M. Rakgare, MP. (Mogoditshane) - Development

Hon. A. M. Mokgethi, MP. (Gaborone Bonnington North) - Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs Hon. Dr T. Matsheka, MP. (Lobatse) - Minister of Finance and Economic Development Hon. F. M. M. Molao, MP. (Shashe West) - Minister of Basic Education Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Hon. Dr D. Letsholathebe, MP. (Tati East) - Technology Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Hon. L. M. Moagi, MP. (Ramotswa) - Energy Security

Hon. P. O. Serame, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Hon. M. Balopi, MP. (Gaborone North) - Development

Hon. M. Kgafela, MP. (Mochudi West) - Minister of Infrastructure and Housing Development

Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs, Governance and Hon. D. M. Mthimkhulu, MP. (Gaborone South) - Public Administration Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. K. K. Autlwetse, MP. (Specially Elected) - Development Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. S. N. Modukanele, MP. (Lerala -Maunatlala) - Development Assistant Minister, Agricultural Development and Food Hon. B. Manake, MP. (Specially Elected) - Security

Hon. S. Lelatisitswe, MP. (Boteti East) - Assistant Minister, Health and Wellness

Hon. N. W. T. Makwinja, MP. (Lentsweletau-Mmopane) - Assistant Minister, Basic Education

Hon. M. S. Molebatsi, MP. (Mmadinare) - Assistant Minister, Investment, Trade and Industry Assistant Minister, Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. H. B. Billy, MP. (Francistown East) - Development Hon. M. R. Shamukuni, MP. (Chobe) - Assistant Minister,Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES

Names Constituency

RULING PARTY (Botswana Democratic Party) Hon. L. Kablay, MP. (Government Whip) Letlhakeng-Lephephe Hon. Dr U. Dow, MP. Specially Elected Hon. M. R. Reatile, MP. Jwaneng-Mabutsane Hon. P. Majaga, MP. Nata-Gweta Hon. J. S. Brooks, MP. Kgalagadi South Hon. C. Greeff, MP. Gaborone Bonnington South Hon. T. Letsholo, MP. Kanye North Hon. T. F. Leuwe, MP. Takatokwane Hon. T. Mangwegape-Healy, MP. Gaborone Central Hon. S. N. Moabi, MP. Tati West Hon. T. Monnakgotla, MP. Kgalagadi North Hon. P. K. Motaosane, MP. Thamaga-Kumakwane Hon. O. Regoeng, MP. Molepolole North Hon. J. L. Thiite, MP. Ghanzi North OPPOSITION (Umbrella for Democratic Change) Hon. D. Saleshando, MP. (Leader of the Opposition) Maun West Hon. A. Lesaso, MP. (Acting Opposition Whip) Shoshong Hon. D. L. Keorapetse, MP. Selebi Phikwe West Hon. Y. Boko, MP Mahalapye East Hon. Dr K. Gobotswang, MP. Sefhare-Ramokgonami Hon. C. K. Hikuama, MP. Ngami Hon. K. K. Kapinga, MP Okavango Hon. G. Kekgonegile, MP. Maun East Hon. P. P. P. Moatlhodi, MP. Tonota Hon. T. B. Lucas, MP. Bobonong Hon. M. G. J. Motsamai, MP. Ghanzi South Hon. K. Nkawana, MP. Selebi Phikwe East Hon. O. Ramogapi, MP. Palapye Hon. Dr N. Tshabang, MP. Nkange Hon. D. Tshere, MP. Mahalapye West Hon. M. I. Moswaane, MP. Francistown West (Botswana Patriotic Front) Hon. T. S. Khama, MP. Serowe West Hon. L. Lesedi, MP. Serowe South Hon. B. Mathoothe, MP. Serowe North (Alliance for Progressives) Hon. W. B. Mmolotsi, MP. Francistown South TABLE OF CONTENTS THE FIRST MEETING OF THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TWELFTH PARLIAMENT FRIDAY 13TH NOVEMBER, 2020

CONTENTS PAGE (S) SPEAKER’S REMARKS ...... 1

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER...... 1-3 Reversal of Appointment of Individuals who were Politically Active in the Five Years Preceding their Appointment to Land Boards Motion...... 4-29

Friday 13th November, 2020 QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

Friday 13th November, 2020 MR MAJAGA: Further procedure. Thank you Mr Speaker. With due respect, I appreciate the question by THE ASSEMBLY met at 9:00 a.m. Honourable Keorapetse which you have just addressed. (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) It seems like we have a problem at Clerk’s office, because people have reinstated their previous questions P R A Y E R S and Motions, but they are not here. So we have many Ministers’ questions, the Honourable Members * * * * submitted them so we do not know what the problem SPEAKER’S REMARKS is. As you are aware, maybe they will facilitate these things quickly because at the end of this session, we MR SPEAKER (MR SKELEMANI): Order! Order! might end up having many questions which we could Honourable Members, good morning! May we start our have addressed. Thank you Mr Speaker. business of today with questions. MR SPEAKER: Indeed, as I said, the questions are MR KEORAPETSE: On a point of procedure. Good fair and we ought to have a better answer as to why, if morning Mr Speaker, I thought you were going to talk questions have been submitted, we do not have them. about the Order Paper, it looks like it has one ordinary question, but traditionally it must have Ministers’ QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER questions or themes. So as a matter of fact, I know that NURSES’ RISK ALLOWANCE Ministers’ questions were immediately submitted after prorogation and I am just wondering why they have not MR F. T. LEUWE (TAKATOKWANE): Asked the made it to the Order Paper. Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Administration to explain why nurses are not given risk May I also indicate that I have been probing this matter, allowance like other essential service officers; and state trying to find out which Ministers’ questions will be if they are not at risk due to the nature of their work. appearing on the Order Paper, it took a long time to be told that there would not be any, I think this was ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL yesterday. Perhaps we should be told why we have AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC only one ordinary question and not more of ordinary ADMINISTRATION (MR MTHIMKHULU): Thank questions, and why we do not have themes? you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, there are no public officers who fall under the Public Service Act that get a risk MR SPEAKER: I think that is a fair question... allowance. As such, we are not aware of any essential …Silence… service employees or any other officer in the public service who is being paid the risk allowance. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member for Selebi Mr Speaker, the 1998 Presidential Commission on Phikwe West, I am told that there are two questions Salaries and Conditions of Service Reviews stated which were still being processed, but not ready to be on that every job which has occupational risks should be the Order Paper… taken care of by adequate occupational safety measures HONOURABLE MEMBER: Sir? such as protective clothing and safety procedures. The commission also observed that the compensation for MR SPEAKER: That there are two questions being risks claimed would not be a preventive measure. processed. They say sometimes what happens is that the questions come and then there is some editing and Mr Speaker, having said that, I wish to point that the clarity, so that when it is put on the paper, it is understood conditions of service for public officers are negotiable what exactly is wanted. It is part of the processing of the matters, if the need arises to introduce risk allowance questions. They say that is the reason why we will end for nurses or any other essential service officers, it will up having one question because others have not yet been be negotiated between the employer and the recognised processed. As I said, your question is quite right, that public service unions through the laid down structures how come we have one question on Monday the 9th. I and decision reached accordingly. I thank you. am sure we will find out; it is quite odd that should be MR MOSWAANE: Supplementary. Can you clarify the case. this point Minister, why do you not volunteer to become

Hansard No 200 1 Friday 13th November, 2020 QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

good people such that one day, we hear about the good implemented. After its implementation, it should be deeds you have done for the people, why do you want considered if it can be permanent; this was a suggestion us to keep challenging you? Why do you want us to by public service unions who are essential who said challenge you through Motions, are you not aware that they are on the forefront. So our response is that these these people are at a risk Minister, I mean on your own? matters will be negotiated. If they agree they will, You are always defensive whenever we talk about a we do not have a problem. However the Ministry of situation which you know is true. You know that you Health as I indicated earlier have advised that in order are originally a member of opposition, you could still be to protect an employee…Allowance cannot protect an complaining if you were on our side instead of shielding employee but in order to protect him/her we have to your position that side. Thank you. make sure that precautions are in place to avoid them being exposed to contracting the disease is the most MR MTHIMKHULU: To start with, I am not a member important. So they were talking about things which are of Opposition but a Member of Parliament serving supported by international workers associations that it is under Domkrag. Secondly, I was asked to explain what better to protect an employee rather than pay them risk is pertaining at the moment, not what is to happen in allowance. Thank you Mr Speaker. the future. Moreover, I never said we do not have the intention to do that. I have explained in my presentation MR LEUWE: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. that, if the need arises, negotiations will be considered I want to hear the Minister clearly where he indicated and they are going to result in that if at all it was meant that if unions do not come forth to complain on behalf to be. of employees, as an employer he cannot consider that on their behalf? We are not saying that if he pays them risk As I proceed, we have a contribution from nurses and allowance he will have protected them, our argument doctors’ association and they are saying risk allowance is that if he has not yet put precautionary measures in is not going to assist them, that we have to amend the…I place, he should pay them risk allowance. Thank you. mean at the Ministry of Health and Wellness, they are saying the allowances given… they are not going to MR MTHIMKHULU: The question you are asking benefit them in a reasonable way. All we have to do is Honourable, is the same one I answered earlier, the issue to ensure that we shield them from danger and protect of risk allowance will be handed over to the employer them because if they get risk allowance and get infected and employees for negotiation and reach an agreement. by the disease to a point where they lose their lives, it You should also know that as we are gathered here, if will not benefit them that much. We have to ensure that there is COVID-19, we are facing a risk because we they do not get infected by the disease nor face those are gathered here. There is a risk of COVID-19 and dangers, their work environment must be safe. Thank we are not the only ones, there are some people who you Mr Speaker. you may not classify as essential workers like teachers MR HIKUAMA: Supplementary. Thank you Minister. and others who are facing the same risk. It therefore I did not really get your point, I heard you saying means that all of us because we are working under an something like you are going to assess that issue only if abnormal situation, we can have the right to demand it can be raised by the union and negotiate at a relevant risk allowance going forth because everyone can show level. You also concluded by saying something like they how he/she is exposed. For example, a person working have already raised it, maybe I missed your point… in Parliament, who checks temperature at the reception, that some also felt that it is not going to benefit them. It every day different people pass through him/her and appears like your answer is contradictory, anyway let me should speak to them, same as a Records Office. You leave it there. Here is my specific question, according might think that those people are not facing a risk but to your knowledge, the issue being discussed here of when we start talking about risk allowance, they will risk allowance, has it ever been brought by the nurses advocate for themselves indicating that they are facing and their unions for negotiation with the Government? the same risk as a person you call essential service who Thank you. treats patients. That is why I am saying these issues are important, but they will be handed over to the active MR MTHIMKHULU: I said if I recall clearly, there parties; the unions and employer to negotiate and reach was a time when unions came and discussed about an agreement. If they agree…because if they agree and risk allowance during COVID-19, to see if it can be then say, here are the terms and conditions, we are not

2 Hansard No 200 Friday 13th November, 2020 QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

averse to that. We are open to that if they can negotiate supplementary questions and I also explained that the and agree, they will present it to us for proper review. matter of risk allowance is currently being negotiated by workers unions and employer representatives after MR MOTSAMAI: Supplementary. Mr Speaker, the they reach an agreement as they should and present it Minister is not answering the question. In fact, the to us that this is how much we agreed upon. What we statement he delivered does not give any hope. You are do now is that we will ponder over it and see what we saying, you can only listen to those issues after they met can do and deliver a decision by the Government on that with their unions. I want to inform you that a Member particular aspect. Let us allow the process to flow rather of Parliament in this Parliament at this juncture is a than skipping it. Thank you Mr Speaker. union, spokesperson of those employees. So are you saying that you will only discuss if the unions present MR BROOKS: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. the matter? Why could you not say the same thing to all Let me ask the Minister this question Mr Speaker, since the questions we asked regarding your ministry, why did they are coordinating these discussions, when should you not say unions should be involved? When it comes we expect the results? How long are there going to take? to this matter you want to involve the union. Will we keep hearing that there are ongoing discussions, with no idea when there will be concluded? How much Last one; how can we now trust you to take action hope should we have regarding discussions which are regarding the issues the Member of Parliament presented never concluded? to you if you flatly refuse? Why can you not pack these issues as you are informed? At least if you could have MR MTHIMKHULU: Honourable Member, there is said, “no, we will review it at the ministry.” Because a mechanism in terms of the law that parties discussing if you delay it with unions…and you raised issues that a matter at the table should at some point reach an everyone may claim risk allowance. Currently, the issue agreement. That process is all setup in the law. These is about nurses, not everyone. They will present their two parties if they reach a point where they feel they case some other time, or I will present one matter for cannot go any further, they then trigger the mechanism some workers. Answer. which is there and stipulated in the law. Let us not draw conclusions, they will update us. Thank you Mr Speaker. MR MTHIMKHULU: Let me start by saying, if you talk about allowances of Government employees or any MR TSHERE: Further supplementary. Thank you of their benefits, you cannot just simply impose iton Honourable Speaker and thank you Honourable Minister. them. As the opposition Honourable Motsamai, you are This issue of risk allowance is an old issue because I going to go around saying, “the Government is making am from the health sector. The most important issue of a decision alone, she does not respect employees. She which I agree with you on is that some professions are imposes allowances or makes decisions and impose on risky and we have to opt for implementing precautionary them; she does not respect employees.” You will now measures for employees rather than rushing to pay them start attacking us… allowance. The issue being discussed here is allowance, we are talking about money Honourable Minister. MR MOTSAMAI: I am a Member of Parliament for People want money. What they are saying is pay them Ghanzi South. something. Other countries have increased health MR MTHIMKHULU: Yes, you are indeed a Member officials salaries by 40 per cent looking at the amount of Parliament of Ghanzi South. You will say we are of task they are bearing. Yesterday Honourable Rakgare wrong Honourable Motsamai. Our point is that the announced that he is going to give the women football process used to review allowances and benefits of team at South Africa P250 000 as an appreciation for Government employees should be followed as you all their hard work. When are you going to take interest always say it should. We do not want to skip any stage. in giving the health officials allowance to match their They are negotiating the risk allowance, discussions are current situation and status? That is my question. Thank ongoing. We cannot just come and say we are going to you Mr Speaker. pay you this much risk allowance while they are still negotiating, they might accuse us of mistreating them. MR MTHIMKHULU: Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable Tshere, I believe you were not listening to Secondly, the issue that I do not answer question, I did me. I said as a Government, we cannot take unilateral answer and explained. I read it in English then was asked decisions on this particular issue. We are waiting

Hansard No 200 3 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

for these negotiating parties, the two of them being with the answer. I do not think more questions will those who are representing the employer and those elicit what you rather have as an answer. The Minister representing the employees, they should meet and agree is consistent that there are negotiations being carried on on how they are going to resolve this issue and once that and the question of risk allowance is part of that. He is has been done, then they will come to us and we will not prepared to take any action as part of risk allowance ponder and implement. If wherever they are and when before the negotiations, that is how I understand it. So negotiating they are not able to reach an agreement on there you are. this issue, then there is a legal process that they must trigger. The employees or Government employees, there HONOURABLE MEMBER: Are you answering for is a process that is stipulated in the law which they can him? follow to make sure that they reach a conclusion to this MR SPEAKER: I am not answering for him, I am issue about their negotiations. For now as a Government, summarizing, it seems like you want something, and we cannot come up with any figure and impose it on you do not hear him. workers, it will be unlawful, and you know it. They will go to court like they have done before saying their rights REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT are being violated, we are not supposed to do that sir. OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE Thank you. POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR MR KEKGONEGILE: Supplementary. Thank you APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS Mr Speaker, good morning Honourable Members. Honourable Minister, in the negotiations there is give Motion and take, there are topics that are there in negotiations. You tell us that negotiations are ongoing, but you are not LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR telling us what they are continuing on. Let us give you SALESHANDO): Procedure. I was saying before the an example; Performance Management And Delivery Motion is presented, we have to clearly understand the Unit (PEMANDU) negotiations between your ministry procedure. Yesterday when Parliament was ongoing, the and the unions, nurses included, where do they fit in in Vice President was allowed to comment on Parliament negotiations of PEMANDU one may ask that looking debates, but he was not here. We want to know is that at nurses, looking at risk allowances and other things the new procedure? If he is not here like now, can he like that? continue with virtual technology and take part in the debate, because maybe when I am on the floor and he MR MTHIMKHULU: …(Inaudible)…those are wants to comment again, do we stop and assume he is technical issues that require those at the negotiating now present or what? table to come here and tell you. You were a unionist, you can call your friends and ask them what PEMANDU has MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, I thought last in store. Not for me to say things that they are discussing time I dealt with that question because I said we take at the table here, they will soon say the Honourable advantage of this technology. I said, I hope we will be Minister is creating problems for us. Thank you Mr able to engage you Honourable Leader of the Opposition Speaker. when you are in Maun West and we are here and talk to you as if you were physically here. In short, my ruling HONOURABLE MEMBER: Last supplementary. was that, the Vice President (VP) can be connected and HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ah! Are you the one participate in the debates in the House virtually, that is who determines that it is the last one? the ruling I made.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Why is it the last? MR SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): Thank you Mr Speaker. I want to verify that I want to put this MR SPEAKER: They are finished. Motion before this Parliament that, what we have seen happening recently is against what has been procedure HONOURABLE MEMBER: The very last one Mr and the law of running the country’s affairs and should Speaker. be reversed. I am saying this because in the past, there MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, the Minister was a time when after the elections, the ruling party then has answered you and obviously you are not satisfied elected those who lost the elections as Specially Elected

4 Hansard No 200 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

members to govern the country. This was stopped as policy and use it to guide you. Do not include politicians time went on because I believe Government saw that in the running of land issues as things have been done, the governance of a country does not need to be tainted as agreed.” by issues of political parties, in regards to who belonged to which party. There was a desire to insulate land, it is I do not think it is unfair as he was saying, it is not unfair the right thing because land is not something we can use because when you are involved in politics, there are to thank people with. The job of governing a country certain benefits that you forfeit and there are other things cannot be used to thank those who were not lucky to get that you invite by joining politics. Even when you apply into a political office. to request for funds from a bank, you complete more paperwork because you would be a Politically Exposed Additionally, it was important that those who are Person (PEP). You are an animal which when dealing appointed at land boards be only those who are not with it, people should be alert, watching you closely. We have invited this to ourselves. We know we are not associated with or focused on political parties and supposed to be involved at the land boards just because it should also be known that they can be trusted with we would have lost elections. After people were called governing the country. Honourable Members, these for interviews in 2019, interviews were conducted at issues of good governance also depend on transparency the beginning of 2020, and when they were supposed and everyone knowing the laws they are going to use to be given appointment letters the Honourable Minister once the ball starts rolling. Not whereby when you are decided to reverse everything to say he was starting saying that there is an ongoing project, then you want to afresh. take part and people change laws mid-way because they I saw one of the questions that was asked by Honourable want something they did not tell you about from the Unity Dow, which was asking about the ways in which beginning. Regarding this recent issue, I will indicate people who take certain decisions could be surcharged that the Minister has changed the rules of the game mid- when Government loses money. That is what Ministers way so that he can use his powers, to assist members of do, all the expenditure incurred by Government having Domkrag who lost primary and general elections. people attending interviews and then at a stroke of a pen Last year, there was an announcement from the ministry, he says let us start afresh. The funds have been wasted inviting all who wished to be land board members to and no one is saying anything to the Minister. He then indicate that and we were told they were going to be called for a second round of interviews and he made an in office from April 1st 2020 to 31st March 2023. In this announcement which did not have a Clause with said announcement, it was said that you should not bother one should not be involved in party politics. After doing to apply, if you are involved in party politics. I will so, the challenge is that over and above that he ignored read it in English, “not be actively involved in party those who attended the interviews and had passed, and politics”, as a requirement. “Not be actively involved in he did not even give them their results. Rather than doing party politics” as a requirement, not saying once you are that he went ahead and called those who did not even employed then you should renounce party politics. This apply, those who were not there, he then appointed them has been the practice for many years. This week when to land boards. He said he used what he has captured in the Minister was responding to a question he said he his answers as Statutory Instrument No. 29 of 2017, and found it unfair, but the notice was already out. I want to I am going to quote just one sentence out of the whole posit that he did not find it unfair, because the first notice answer if you agree. came out before elections, after elections there were MR SPEAKER: Please do. lamentations for those who had lost. The truth is that the Minister prepared a place for them at land boards, and MR SALESHANDO: “Statutory Instrument No. then he went ahead and amended the policy on his own. 29 of 2017 was applied in situations where there was He might have the powers to change the policy, but I a huge difference in age, qualifications, experience, would like Parliament to know that it is the main House competencies or geographical representation of villages when it comes to making laws and amending them. If especially within the sub-land boards as well as to balance the Minister decided to amend the policy by himself, gender and to ensure inclusion of people from remote area here we have the authority to say, “No, we do not agree settlements so that they could be empowered.” Here it with that policy amendment, just go back to the initial does not apply in anything we are talking about today. If

Hansard No 200 5 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

he wants to say he applied it here he could not be having feedback, which is what I am doing today. I am giving a problem with releasing the names and showing them you feedback that can save the nation, if we want to run to us, and also say ‘I have nominated even those who our things in a better way. did not apply, they had certain skills that were missing I do not intend to use all my time but I would like to say at the land boards.’ I can tell you Mr Speaker, very, very something that is in line with what I said in the State authoritatively that in the case of Maun there is someone of the Nation Address (SONA). Botswana still has a who has a Master’s Degree and they were working in youthful population, there is what is called demographic a land related environment, very experienced and they dividend. Let us deviate from saying when people were not considered. Then you appointed someone who apply we then call people who are 70 years. At the land had not applied at all, who has no idea where the gate board that is what the notice said, that one should be to a senior secondary school is. That is why last time between the ages of 26 and 70 years, someone having the Honourable Minster ran away when he was asked to passed their retirement age and then we say, “but you provide the names and the qualifications saying, “no it is are the one we are looking for so that you can do the in the public domain” and when he was shown that it is administration.” The current crop of young people that not in the public domain he looked for a Standing Order we have are the most educated generation this country after another trying to block that request. We had turned has ever had since independence. The current youth are into a radio programme called Thibang Diphotlha when the most educated generation surpassing all of them the Minister of Lands was asked to tell us why he cannot that ever existed and the way we do not trust them as give us the information that we need regarding these Government, we always want to engage people who are issues. Honourable Members although this is something far advanced in age; and this is not good for this country. for the BDP, trying to cover up, other BDP members Even during a time when there were not many youth, who qualify are also getting hurt in the process. They when we were still...(Inaudible)…If you can read a have BDP membership cards and they qualify; but they book by Dr Masire entitled ‘Very Brave or Very Foolish’ are not active because the message you gave them is that he talks about the gambles he took that paid off. The ‘we only want those who were campaigning for us to decisions he took trusting the youth, giving them high appointed to land board offices,’ Government offices. I ranking positions and how that benefited this country. He believe the appointments that were made are not taking mentioned them by name; the likes of Charles Tibone, this country forward. Progressive countries who have Samuel Mpuchane; mentioning them in his book saying managed to be high-income economies, who were once these youth did things which most people did not think at our level, have surpassed us; countries like Singapore they could do to take this country forward. have managed to go up there because the one thing they do is to run things according to mericracy, engaging MR MOSWAANE: Point of elucidation. You are people in jobs based on their capabilities. You cannot debating very well Leader of the Opposition. What have a high-income country running it via sycophancy. you are saying needs to be very clear because we the Umbrella for Democratic Change (UDC) on this side Yesterday the Minister of Youth was excited that I are saying the pension should be increased so that had given accolades to the President here, but he was people can be able to retire early. You did not say they disappointed somewhere saying in that incident I did should retire to go and suffer, as I have been hearing not shower him with accolades. If we can teach the words flying about from that side. You did not say they young ones this habit, that leaders are supposed to be should be dumped, you are saying the old age pension sang praises to and not told when they have erred… should be increased and those retiring should be given amenities to go and create employment and employ HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… the youth since they have experience and knowledge. MR SALESHANDO: …to tell the President that ‘here I believe you are debating very well when you say you have erred,’ I do not agree with you Minister of that the youth of this country have knowledge and that Youth that it is something that you can be angry about elders should give youth a chance. I believe that you are and just say a leader should be showered with praises addressing this issue brilliantly Honourable Member. all the time. I have the words he used saying I am Thank you. refusing to give accolades to the President. I have never MR SALESHANDO: That is it. You will notice that been a poet in my life, but I will give you constructive in your debate, you are not saying that elders should be

6 Hansard No 200 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

abandoned, you are rather saying that the youth should Honourable Members, I plead with you, let us listen be given a chance. Elders should be assigned other to our conscience. I know that our conscience dies duties that they can do. The person who is murmuring sometimes. Last time I said that the explanation of more than everyone at the back is the Minister of Youth conscience that I was given by my parent is that it is Empowerment, Sport and Culture Development. He the triangle in your heart. This triangle moves when is objecting what you are saying that the youth should you do something that is not right and its sharp points be considered. This is the curse that the youth of this will then poke your heart for you to take a step back, country are challenged with. without the law being read out to you. When you do an unacceptable thing once, twice or three times, this MINISTER OF YOUTH EMPOWERMENT, triangle moves around until it turns into a circle. If your SPORT AND CULTURE DEVELOPMENT (MR conscience is dead, even if you are asked if you are RAKGARE): Point of order Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, going to choose someone who has never been to school I believe that Leader of the Opposition is still upset over someone who has Master’s Degree and experience because of the statements that we made yesterday. The in law issues, choosing someone who does not have statements that were directed to him, which suit him. secondary school certificate, someone who has never He should not walk over me. I did not say anything. I worked, someone who did not even apply, you will start am quiet. to look for a law that says that you have the powers to HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… do so. I am not going to talk about that one today. It is MR RAKGARE: I did not even talk to my neighbour not wrong to have powers; the elephants also have more Honourable Anna Mokgethi here. I am just here reading powers as compared to other animals. It is only wrong newspapers. It is unacceptable for him to say that I am for one to use his or her powers like an elephant which talking. Honourable Leader of the Opposition (LOO) goes around destroying every tree, including even should get back in order. He should withdraw that those that are not on its way. That is the unacceptable statement because he is disrespecting me. The nation behaviour that I am talking about today. Therefore, Mr and the youth will take it that I said that they should Speaker, I want to move “that this Honourable House not be considered at land board. Mr Speaker., this is not resolves that appointment of individuals to land boards right. Please call him to order. Thank you. who were politically active in the five years preceding their appointment, be reversed and in their place, young MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Maybe I did not hear people with tertiary qualifications be appointed.” I move him correctly, I thought Honourable Leader of the accordingly. Opposition was saying something which happened yesterday as opposed to the Minister objecting now. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)…

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MINISTER OF LAND MANAGEMENT, WATER AND SANITATION SERVICES (MR MZWINILA): MR SPEAKER: If he was objecting now, that means Thank you Mr Speaker. I rise to oppose this Motion for the Honourable Minister was objecting without his various reasons. To start off with, let me just make a microphone on, which of course will mean that I will correction, Honourable Member gave an example and hardly have heard him. Since you are here, answer for since he talked about Maun, it is incorrect to state that yourself. the Maun Land Board; Tawana Land Board is filled with people who do not have education. For his information, MR SALESHANDO: I notice that he regrets what he there is a PhD holder in the same land board that he is said. I do not want to cause chaos, I will withdraw my complaining as to why educated people are not in the statement because apparently it was a side remark by land board. the Minister. Mr Speaker, what I am trying to say is that today we are going to ask Parliament to exercise Mr Speaker, the Motion as tabled by the Honourable its powers on the side of the disadvantaged qualified Member for Maun West, which calls for the reversal members who applied to be land board members, people of the appointment of the land board members who who were turned down for politicians. Today I am not were politically active in the past five years preceding going to read out the law that you broke. Honourable their appointment is discriminatory on the basis of Members of Parliament, I plead with you today, let us association. I plead with this Honourable House to not exercise a sense of fairness. discriminate against fellow Batswana. Appointment

Hansard No 200 7 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

to any post based on your past associations, unless regulations to be consonant with the prevailing times. precluded in the advertisement for that post, will be It therefore, begs the question why the Honourable an unlawful act and abuse of power by the appointing Member challenges these provisions, in particular, past authority. I plead with the Honourable House that we political activism only at this late hour and leaves out do not denigrate ourselves by abusing our power. The other new provisions in the regulations. The regulations advertisement of land board members did not have a were published, and I am not aware of any representation provision to exclude those who were politically active challenging these amendments. from applying. It will be unfair, insensitive and exposing ourselves to unnecessary litigations by terminating the Mr Speaker, the Tribal Land Act vests powers of appointment of members who were not disqualified by appointment of land board members to the Minister the advertisement. responsible for Land Management. This Motion seeks to indirectly usurp these powers and vests them in Mr Speaker, the Tribal Land Act Regulations on the the Parliament. The Honourable Member knows that procedure for appointment of members of the land the procedure for taking away powers provided in a board which provided that, “in order to qualify as a legislature is through amendments of the instrument that candidate for appointment as a member of any land provides for those powers. This Motion does not seek to board, the applicant shall not be actively involved amend the Tribal Land Act, but has the effect of taking in party politics,” was amended through Tribal Land the powers vested in the Minister. The Honourable Amendment Regulations, 2020, Statutory Instrument Member should further note that taking away the No. 91 of 2020 as published in the Government Gazette appointing powers from the Minister to Parliament will of the 26th June, 2020. It reads thus, “Regulation 2 of have effects on issues of accountability of the Minister the regulations is amended by substituting for sub- responsible for Land Management. If the ministry is to regulation the following new sub-regulations; in order be accountable to Parliament, the ministry should have for a person to qualify for appointment as a member of the prerogative in terms of how it executes its mandate. a land board, the applicant shall; Parliament cannot now want to take the functions of the Executive and now want to appoint. At the same time, (i) Be a citizen of Botswana; it is the same Parliament which would want to hold the (ii) Hold a valid identity card issued under the Minister accountable. If Parliament wants to appoint National Registration Act; land board members and manage them, then they should ask them the questions about land management (iii) Have attained the age of 26 years and not be over directly and not refer them to the responsible Minister the age of 70 years; in Parliament or the responsible Permanent Secretary at the Public Accounts Committee (PAC). This is clear (iv) Reside within the tribal area in respect of which he violation and denigration of the separation of powers of or she seeks appointment; the Constitution of the Republic of Botswana. (v) Hold a minimum academic qualification of a Mr Speaker, the Motion further calls for the replacement secondary school Junior Certificate (JC); of the members who were politically active to be replaced by the youth with tertiary qualifications. I do (vi) Not have been declared insolvent or adjudged not have a problem with appointing people with tertiary or otherwise declared bankrupt under any law in qualifications as I have indicated in my response to force in Botswana or elsewhere; the question asked by the Honourable Member, that I (vii) Not have been sentenced to imprisonment without appointed 90 youth with tertiary qualifications and four the option of a fine for any offence, whether in of them did not have tertiary qualifications, the total Botswana or elsewhere; was 94. Out of the total of 342 members in the different boards, 94 of them are youth. (viii) Not hold any public office or act in any public office.” Mr Speaker, experience is also a factor that has to be taken into consideration in making appointments to the The amendment to regulations in addition to political land boards. Experience is a factor in all recruitment activism includes changes to the age limit and criminal processes, succession planning and in all decision records of the candidate. We were thus modifying making. Land management and administration is

8 Hansard No 200 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

a sensitive issue which calls for experience. Some kind of resolution. So because he did not indicate it as countries have gone to wars due to poor land we do not have it, that is why he is fumbling saying that management/administration and I am very cautious not it will be illegal, that Parliament is trying to empower to lead Batswana and this great nation into that abyss. In itself. The truth of the matter is, all Parliaments take that regard, I have in making appointments included the resolutions based on decisions made by Executives. youth so that they can learn from the more experienced Additionally, other countries are so advanced to a point members of our society. where many appointments are made as a result of the decision of Parliament. So, it is necessary for us to take Mr Speaker, while I appreciate that there is need to this resolution today. create employment for our youth, the land boards are not a platform for employment creation. Our national If you pay attention Mr Speaker, you will note that it priorities are many and we need to prioritise that at any is actually their norm as members of Domkrag. Some particular instance, what is the priority. Land boards think doing things according to wishes of Domkrag are facilitating agencies for employment creation by means something but we have some examples which investors and other agencies through facilitation of indicate what that is all about. Doing things according land transactions and land management. Government to wishes of Domkrag is thinking that members of has set up programmes intended to address youth Domkrag deserve all the good things, that they are unemployment and this can be discussed and elaborated the only ones who deserve to be appointed in different under separate cover. positions without considering the merit. For a very long time Mr Speaker, public offices have been distributed as Mr Speaker, I therefore submit that this Honourable patronage in this country. For example; if you consider House should reject this Motion which is discriminatory, people who are not necessarily career senior civil unconstitutional and even illegal as it now wants servants, you are not going to find any Former Leader Parliament to interfere in the administration of the of the Opposition who used to serve as a Councilor ministry that has been mandated by the separation of or a Member of Parliament or who holds a high and powers to implement the mandate of the Government distinctive position; perhaps serving as a Permanent in power at any particular point in time. I thank you Mr Secretary (PS), Director, Chief Executive Officer (CEO) Speaker. in public enterprise or a Chairman of a parastatal board. MR KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE WEST): That is how you operate in this country, we know that Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me start by clarifying the for you to hold these positions, in many occasions, if first one, that I support the idea by Honourable Leader you are not a professional who was appointed for the of the Opposition which says “this Honourable House sake of being a professional, you will be considered on resolves that appointment of individuals to land boards the basis that you are a member of Domkrag. So this who were politically active in the five years preceding is a bad mentality because you only consider members their appointment be reversed, and in their place, young of Domkrag. Consider the Ambassadors Mr Speaker, in people with tertiary qualifications be appointed”. the past; many of those who… HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)... Let me first and foremost highlight that unlike what the Minister of Land Management, Water and sanitation MR KEORAPETSE: I will address the issue on Services said, that Parliament is trying to confiscate power Honourable Mangole in detail, I noted it and knew from the Executive through this Motion, Mr Speaker, you will point it out. We have many Ambassadors Mr there is nothing that precludes this National Assembly Speaker and you can list some of them, I do not know to take a resolution if the Executive is accountable and if where Honourable Dr Gobotswang is, he won against they listen to the Parliament. There is absolutely nothing one of them and she is now in Australia. Honourable illegal about Parliament taking a resolution that reverses Lelatisitswe who has been looking for a point of the appointment of those who were politically active clarification knows, he won against one of them during from land boards and appoint young people with tertiary primary elections, he also became a High Commissioner qualifications in their place. There is absolutely nothing at Zambia. The list is long, but can you name anyone illegal about that. In fact, the Minister should have stated who has been a member of Opposition who served as a section from the Constitution or from the law which a Member of Parliament or a Leader of the Opposition indicates that Parliament is restricted from taking that who became an Ambassador or a High Commissioner.

Hansard No 200 9 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

Honourable Speaker, everyone knows that Honourable So Honourable Members, you think that members of Mangole has been friends with President Masisi for a BDP are the only ones who are intelligent and the only very long time… ones who qualify to be appointed and it is wrong. The notion by Honourable Mzwinila is wrong especially HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… that he keeps complaining about this and that. We know MR KEORAPETSE: …he also joined politics that you deliberately appointed members of the BDP originally as a member of the BDP. as gatekeepers at land boards for other members of BDP who are going to apply for land. Land acquired The third thing we must know about Honourable for farming, business or residential is wealth, if you are Mangole Mr Speaker, go and check from the Hansard. responsible for running the affairs of land board, you Honourable Wynter Mmolotsi is my witness, we had a carry great power and we are not surprised by that. resolution at Umbrella for Democratic Change (UDC) Within 119 Specially Elected Councillors, Honourable Caucus where Honourable Mangole had a recording Molale mentioned four of them who are members of from Vice President Masisi which could cause divisions the Opposition. The rest are members of the BDP who among the BDP and he refused to give it because caused conflicts amongst you since some lost primary of the relationship and agreement between him and elections. It was a strategy to remove some unwanted Vice President Masisi at that time. So even if I was in Members of Parliament in the BDP and they were President Masisi’s position, I could have appreciated appointed as Mayors and Councillors. Some of them Honourable Mangole for that just as he made him an Ambassador, that is why you keep talking about had retired long time ago, those who qualified to work as Honourable Mangole. Where are others who have been advisors at Dikgotla but were appointed as Councillors. Leaders of the Opposition, those who studied law, Some of them are qualified to be my great-grandmother. international relations and others? They were appointed as Councillors simply because they took part at a rally where they said offensive words Many countries are better than you, it is not out of the to the Leader of the UDC, so they were compensated ordinary to appoint members of Opposition to different with a position of a Councillor. Such things are not positions. Take South Africa for example; if you take right, this country belongs to all of us, so stop dividing Ambassadors who were appointed in the past and the it because you will not know what to do in future. current ones, Mr Tony Leon who became an Ambassador at Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay was a Former Mr Speaker, I have long been suggesting that let us not Leader of the Opposition. Ms Celia Sandra Botha who distribute public offices as political patronage, but on was an Ambassador at Czech Republic is a member of merit. Our country is lagging behind because a person the Opposition. Mr Frank Mdlalose who was Kwazulu- will be serving and failing as a Chief Executive Officer Natal (KZN) Premier in 1994, was appointed as an (CEO) at a parastatal while also serving as a Chairman Ambassador at Egypt when he retired from politics. of another Public Enterprise Board and this causes Mohau Pheko, those of us who understand their history great challenges for us. So Honourable Members, let us as politicians, Mr Douglas Gibson; Former Ambassador support the Leader of the Opposition because there is at Thailand, Laos, Cambodia. We know that they are nothing illegal about what he is proposing. Thank you members of Opposition in South Africa and they were Mr Speaker. appointed because capability is the key there not the type of jealousy that Domkrag has, where they behave MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY (GABORONE as if Botswana is theirs alone but it is not like that. CENTRAL): Thank you Mr Speaker and good morning. I stand to oppose the Motion by Leader of We also know about Ministers of South Africa like the Opposition. I would like to start by opposing the Mangosuthu Gatsha Buthelezi who was a Minister statement by Honourable Keorapetse that we always of Home Affairs for 10 years. People like Mosibudi deny members of the Opposition some opportunities. Mangena who was a Minister of Science and Technology, I will also start by naming well-known members of Marthinus Van Schalkwyk who was appointed Minister the opposition who have been members of this House. of Tourism even though he was a member of Opposition Former Leader of Botswana National Front (BNF) who and Patricia de Lille who is currently part of Cabinet was occupying the position that you are now occupying of South Africa, these are real members who formed Honourable Saleshando, Honourable Otsweletse opposition parties. Moupo who works for the North West District Council

10 Hansard No 200 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

as a Legal Advisor as we currently speak. He resumed MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Then he was a passive this position immediately after leaving Parliament. member of the Opposition, it is fine. Judge Dingake… Mr Moumakwa, former Member of Parliament for Kgalagadi North which is now occupied by Honourable HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. Talita Monnakgotla, he resigned as an MP to take up HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order Mr the post of CEO of Public Enterprises Evaluation and Speaker. Privatisation Agency (PEEPA). So, stop saying things that are not true. MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: …(Inaudible)… member of Opposition sir. Thank you. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order Mr MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: James Mathokgwane, Speaker. former MP of the UDC left this House as a member and LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR got a job as a Director in a quasi-Government institution, SALESHANDO): Point of order. Mr Speaker, we SPEDU at your Constituency. You know him and you cannot come here and reveal peoples` names here meet him whenever you go to your Constituency, so and wrongfully accuse them of things they have not stop saying that. Dr Kaelo Molefhe who was Alliance committed as they have nowhere to seek protection. for Progressives (AP) candidate during our previous elections is employed at the Office of the President HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… (OP). So, I do not understand what you are trying to MR SALESHANDO: I am saying this in my capacity say. Kwenantle Gaseitsiwe who was UDC candidate as the leader of the Botswana Congress Party (BCP). at Kanye North is a public servant at Director level. We never had a member by the name Key Dingake. Botswana Congress Party (BCP) well-known activist We have never sent anyone on behalf of BCP by the Judge Dingake left and was appointed to the bench. name of Key Dingake. If he maintains that, he should Ndaba Gaolathe… not think it is okay to say that without any evidence. He LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR should prove to us why he says he was a member of the SALESHANDO): Point of order. I think we should BCP. We are taking about someone who cannot come always cross-check if what we are saying is true here and defend himself if he is being defamed by the whenever we mention names. I am a Leader of the BCP, Member of Parliament for Gaborone Central. I know Judge Dingake, his name was never mentioned MR SPEAKER: That is why Honourable Leader of the and he has never performed any task on behalf of the Opposition, I was putting it to the Honourable Member BCP... for Gaborone Central that if it is being put to him that he HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… is mistaken, unless he can show us to the contrary, it is better to leave Justice Dingake out of it. He is a Judge, MR SALESHANDO: If at all he has evidence where he sat on our bench and please, do not soil his name he once saw him attending BCP meeting, it is unfair. with politics. Perhaps he meant to say Michael Dingake, that one I can attest to. MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you Mr Speaker. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Healy, do you understand what the objection is? MR SPEAKER: Deal with that one.

MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: I hear him but I have HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order. no idea what he is talking about... MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Mr Speaker, I am speaking so I am getting to that. MR SPEAKER: Yes, you know. He said Justice Dingake has never been a member of opposition... MR SPEAKER: Withdraw, unless you want to prove it. HONOURABLE MEMBER: He was. MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: I long withdrew Mr MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Okay Mr Speaker. Speaker. Mr Speaker, I long withdrew before I even sat MR SPEAKER: …of opposition. down.

Hansard No 200 11 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

MR SPEAKER: Okay, you have withdrawn. is not…and untrue. There is no one working at the office of Member of Parliament (MP) for Mahalapye East who MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you Mr is over 80 years. Please… Speaker. I want to express my surprise regarding the hypocrisy across the aisle. This gentleman who was HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… speaking, in their offices as we speak, they did not hire the youth, they took… MR BOKO: …no, may I please speak, learn to listen. I humbly request that he should withdraw those words. HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order Mr Please Honourable Speaker. Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: …they took Honourable Members… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Or he should bring the birth certificate. HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order. MR BOKO: Or he should bring a birth certificate if he MR HIKUAMA: Point of order. Mr Speaker, we has it. are Honourable Members of Parliament; there are no gentlemen in this House. Honourable Member… MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, maybe I did not hear clearly. I thought what Honourable Healy is HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… saying is that, in your office Honourable Boko, you have the services of the former Mayor of the City of MR HIKUAMA: …for Gaborone Central must Gaborone, who is not youth. withdraw and address Honourable Members properly. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Thank you. MR SPEAKER: There are gentlemen in this House. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… MR SPEAKER: It is simple English. MR SPEAKER: I thought he said maybe. I do not think MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Mr Speaker, English he knows the age of the former Mayor, unless he stole is not our mother tongue, it is difficult for Cater, but it is his Omang. I do not know where he got that age. If you fine. Honourable Gentleman Caterpillar Hikuama, you are insisting Honourable Healy that the former Mayor are a gentleman, let me explain for you. They did not of Gaborone is over 80 years, you can present it but hire youth, they come here every day and make a lot these are matters that just waste our time. We ought to of noise about youth unemployment. Yandani Boko, the be debating the principles of the Motion and not these youngest Member of Parliament has a former, I think other issues, whether he is 80 or 20 years, I do not see he must be 80 years old as secretary, former Mayor of where it takes anybody to. Gaborone.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you Mr Speaker. It is true, I cannot make an assurance about HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. Mr Mothei’s age but I can attest that he receives old age pension. That is a fact! MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Honourable… who wants procedure? David Tshere… HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is an old man.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… … HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… (Murmurs)… MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Honourable MR BOKO: Procedure. Mr Speaker, perhaps we should Ramogapi, including James Olesitse. I think since I was show some seriousness in this House. I know that a in primary school, he was contesting for elections but he Member of Parliament for Gaborone Central, who does is now working at his office. So they come here every not even know how he came to Parliament is a playful day and talk about youth issues which they cannot back person. However, the way he is talking about my office up in their own personal capacity. None of them has

12 Hansard No 200 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

employed a woman or a young person, but they come these women constantly. Every day when you address here to just seek cheap political mileage. So Honourable them, you speak in derogatory terms but after this you Saleshando… want to turn and act like a good person, you stand up and support women. Recently, I heard you say people HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. are demeaning…

MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: …Honourable MR SALESHANDO: Point of order. I am going to have Mzwinila has put it to us; 94 youth in land boards. He an opportunity to respond but in terms of the Standing talked about the necessity for experience to make the Orders, you cannot depart from a Motion that has been youth and elderly to learn the procedure of land board put before the House, to then debate other issues which sir. We all know that land issues are very sensitive as are not related to the Motion. The more he is allowed to you already alluded. So it is important to mix the elderly proceed, it means that even in the response, we will be and the youth so that they can learn and head it properly spending too much time responding to issues not related in future. He gave us figures, of which 12 of these to the Motion. So it is out of order to depart from the land boards are headed by young people. He has given Motion and bring up other issues that have passed, that them responsibility. You can see that they have enough are not before the House. experience so he gave them the responsibility to show that he trusts the youth. He is just saying, let us get a MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members. mix. Partly yes, if he drifts too far, he might be out, but to the extent that we talking about the composition of So, Honourable Saleshando, you know I have a problem land boards, where the issue of the youth had been put with the way you address people. The way you talk about forward, I think he is quite in order for him to try and people that you deem as uneducated is very demeaning. demonstrate that we cannot come here and condemn I do not know if during your upbringing you did not what was done by Honourable Mzwinila as the Minister, learn how to address people without demeaning, stating when in fact is being done everywhere else; this is the your point that we want educated people… situation in this country. This is the situation which is HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order Mr being done by Honourable Members of the opposition, Speaker. so you are not entitled to speak as if you are better than anyone. That is how I understand it. To that extent, he MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: …issues of land, is right. without demeaning people, that if you are uneducated… MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you Mr MR SPEAKER: Point of order Honourable Healy. Speaker. You have comprehended my debate well.

MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you sir. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of elucidation.

MR KEORAPETSE: Point of order. Honourable MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Anytime my leader. Healy is a very respectful person, I know him but I HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR thought he will quickly get back to order. Kindly correct TSOGWANE): Elucidation. Thank you Mr Speaker. the statement that from ‘his upbringing’. Honourable Member of Parliament, the Leader of HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is an insult. the Opposition was present listening to Honourable Keorapetse responding, I do not if it is because of his MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: No, what I meant membership at the Umbrella for Democratic Change by that, is the way he presents issues in this House (UDC) or what, why did he not denounce the things he consistently, he demeans people. Recently, he was was talking about when he deviated from the Motion, talking about Honourable Monnakgotla, who was talking talking about ambassadors and other countries. Is that about oversight. When you talk about oversight, you something he can denounce you on whereas he did not cannot take away corruption from issues of oversight denounce the one who was speaking before you? Does issues, whichever it is. The way he answered her was so that not indicate hypocrisy? Thank you Mr Speaker. demeaning, saying she is on a train going to Francistown while she wants to go to Kgalagadi. Saleshando, please, MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: You are right my you talk of Gender-Based Violence (GBV); you abuse leader. I mean, that is something he is well-known for.

Hansard No 200 13 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

He is a hypocrite of the highest order that we know, but MR SPEAKER: Order! You realise that I gave we are not here for that. He says one thing and does Honourable Boko a chance to tell us his quarrel with another, but that is not what we are here for today. On what Honourable Healy has said relating to the use of the gender part sir... the words hypocrite…

MR BOKO: Point of order. Mr Speaker, maybe we HONOURABLE MEMBER: Of the highest order. should deal with this issue, there are some words Mr Speaker that you cannot use in this House to refer to MR SPEAKER: Of the highest order, whether it is another person, especially someone who is our Leader the lowest order, it does not necessarily make any of the Opposition. difference. That was the issue. Everybody now seems to have a point of order not pinpointing what Honourable HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)… Healy has said, which you are objecting to. Somebody is objecting to what Honourable Molao may have said MR SPEAKER: Let us hear him out, he stood on a yesterday or vice versa. When you stand on a point of point of order. Let us hear him. order, it is a question of order as of now, not last year, MR BOKO: So I am saying Mr Speaker, when he last week or yesterday, now! We are dealing with the describes the Leader of the Opposition saying, “he is order of the House now! the hypocrite of the highest order,” those words cannot Honourable Boko, I said and I am still pleading with be allowed and cannot be used in this House. Even if both sides of the House, we are Batswana. I do not know they are allowed, we want to know because there are what is making it impossible for us to just behave like other words that we have that we can use against them. Batswana. We know words that are inappropriate to use We just wanted to be clear about that Mr Speaker, but if on other people. We know according to Setswana, but it that is just okay, there are some words that when I stand seems like when we get into this House as politicians, I will use against you. Thank you. somehow there is permission or a right to deviate from MR MOTSAMAI: Further point of order Mr Speaker. our Setswana, we lose the humility we were raised with. Mr Speaker, it is common that people are insulted that So please, let us choose our words. The words may not side. I am saying this Mr Speaker that mind your words, necessarily, strictly, be insulting as such, the phrase when you are talking to someone, whether they are is, when you say, ‘where you are from, where I am younger or you undermine them, you should not say... from’, they are using…(Inaudible)… those words. It is unnecessary. If I object to what you are saying, I would HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… say, hey, I do not agree with you when you say that, I do not agree, whether it is because of the way you were HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… raised, the fact is that I do not agree with you and that MR MOTSAMAI: Can I please finish Honourable is it. It seems like there are people who enjoy conflict, Molale. You want to be in trouble again? When you are to provoke others, to no benefit at all! The point here talking to someone Mr Speaker, and say to them that is that, do you agree that people who were appointed where they are from, you are talking about their parents, by Honourable Minister Mzwinila should be removed their village and their Kgotla. You are including their from office if in the past three years they were actively parents and Kgotla in issues of Parliament. So that side involved in party politics, simple issue; yes or no, then is a camp of insults. we are done with the issue. So please, let us try and do that. Civility is something in the end you cannot be sent HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)... to school for, you are too old to be sent to school for that. MR MOTSAMAI: Which we have to disintegrate You are too old here to be sent to school to be civil. We today. Thank you Mr Speaker. were all raised. I am sure our parents will be surprised, that now they are Members of Parliament, but hear what HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order Mr they are saying. So please. Honourable Healy! Speaker.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of procedure MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you Mr Mr Speaker. Speaker.

14 Hansard No 200 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

HONOURABLE MEMBER: I am this side. adults in no time. When we do not engage them whilst there is still time and give them that experience that we MR SPEAKER: I am not sure what procedure you are are speaking to, we will lose out on this demographic talking about. dividend. I thank you.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Allow me and you will MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND hear it Mr Speaker. RURAL DEVELOPMENT (MR MOLALE): I thank MR SPEAKER: No! I want us to debate clean, clear you Mr Speaker. I rise here to vehemently oppose this Motions, whether or not, people who were politically Motion because it depicts the highest order of hypocrisy. involved to be removed from the land board. These side Honourable Members, I am from the Goodhope-Mabule issues are not helping us. You are taking your eyes away constituency, I am their Member of Parliament. There is from the ball. a sub-land board, Phitshane-Molopo Sub-Land Board. There is a youth who belongs to the Umbrella for HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… Democratic Change (UDC) in it, and he had contested in the elections, and he has a degree. This Motion is MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you Mr saying he should be removed. It is saying those who had Speaker. For the record, I do not undermine Honourable contested for elections in the preceding five years, so he Saleshando in any way. I think I have a good personal qualifies to be removed. relationship with him, but here I am speaking politics and I am speaking in the context that he says one thing Secondly, he has a degree. So we do not know what today and says another thing tomorrow. I am not saying he has done wrong. Thirdly, Honourable Mzwinila anything negative about his parents, I would never do has explained that the major thing is for people not that. I am just saying, the way he always speak when we to be side-lined. After short listing and realising that are here, talking about women, he is undermining them. these ones were once politicians, he made them sign So sir, I am not trying to insult you in any way, I am just a document as it is always the case everywhere to say trying to talk politics here. ‘when you are here, know that you are no longer an active politician.’ I request Honourable Saleshando to Let me get back to the topic. The issue of the youth, clarify to the people of Phitshane what exactly he is Honourable Minister has indicated that he has hired saying. When we make laws or pass Motions, we do 94 youths and 90 of them met the qualifications that so, so that Batswana would understand what we are the Leader of the Opposition is asking for, they have talking about. What he is showing is confusion. Even tertiary education. So I am wondering what the issue the young person I am talking about, where he is, he is really is because almost all the things that he speaks to, wondering and asking himself, “what have I done to this the conditions have been met. So the main issue is that man? I am representing him and he is saying I should be he is saying they are members of the BDP, in a way that removed from the land board?” Oh oh! No, Honourable he cannot substantiate. The Honourable Minister could Saleshando, please wait. not… I do not think he is in a position, in his vetting process to see who was a member of BDP and who was Mr Speaker, in elections we talked about inclusivity and not. So I really do not know if there is someone the this includes instances like this because when the youth Leader of the Opposition was looking for in particular are involved, they are not the only ones who deserve to who was not appointed. So he wants this to be started be members of the land board. There could be others again so that they appoint that person, or what really is who do not have certificates, but they have an extensive the issue because the youth were appointed. Twelve of knowledge of the areas they stay in, and that is something these land boards as I have already said, the Honourable that can help the land board to be able to deliver on its Minister has included the youth to lead them. He is mandate without a doubt, conflict or whatever. Now showing them that he has the confidence in them and we are told to sideline them because they do not have he has absorbed them in satisfactory numbers. I agree degrees, no. No, this cannot be the case at all. We run with the Honourable Leader of Opposition, maybe the this according to the Tribal Land Act and regulations numbers are not enough. We need to increase numbers of…that came to this Parliament and were agreed to. of the youth because when you look at our population, I am not sure whether we are supposed to amend the the demographic dividend that he is speaking to, we are Act or we should remove the Clause which gives the going to have many youth who are going to be future Minister powers to nominate members and give the

Hansard No 200 15 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

responsibility to Parliament? This is the hypocrisy I am MR MOLALE: A word would have been uttered Mr talking about. Honourable Mzwinila although you did Speaker and he is not the only one. Honourable Boko not say anything, I suspect something. I suspect you has been saying here that people are not addressed realised that the opposition has infiltrated the process of properly. Yesterday he was laughing his lungs out land boards to elect land boards in large numbers. Now when Honourable Moswaane was insulting Honourable that you realised that… Molao and Honourable Mmusi.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: How did he notice? HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order Mr Speaker. MR MOLALE: …I said ‘I suspect,’ do you not understand what that means? Although you did not MR SPEAKER: Ah no, the clock has been stopped on vocalise it I suspect you noticed how politics infiltrated account of point of order. in selecting land board members; then you halted the HONOURABLE MEMBER: Okay, I will come back process. They are not coming out bluntly to say ‘you to you. caught us,’ they are rather making excuses going this way and that way saying, “people are educated out there.” We MR SALESHANDO: Further point of order Mr do take care of the youth and we love them just as you Speaker. I spoke concisely saying Honourable Molale are claiming to love them. When you realise that you is saying my job is just to come here and insult people. have failed, do not harass the BDP and its procedures That is what he is saying. I would like to know whom and try to force your way through so that it appears as I have insulted Mr Speaker and where was that person? if you are someone who can protect people. No, that is He is saying I withdrew the insults…I never at any point not the case. You are misleading Batswana Honourable withdrew a word because it was said to be an insult. He Saleshando. I believe starting from yesterday, Batswana should tell us whom I insulted. will begin to realise that you are just a loud gong. Yours MR SPEAKER: Honourable Leader of the House, is just to come here and hurl insults, looking down upon there is the protest that what you are saying about the people and saying things, no! Honourable Leader of the Opposition is not true.

LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR MR MOLALE: I thank you Mr Speaker. According SALESHANDO): On a point of order Mr Speaker. to our Standing Orders, we can withdraw, hence I am Leader of the House says my role is just to come here withdrawing. The Setswana procedure is clear; I can say and hurl insults. I would like him to mention anyone I something and then I withdraw. have insulted and when that happened because even the Standing Orders do not allow; who was presiding then HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)... who allowed me to use insults? I would not allow him MR SALESHANDO: Further point of order Mr to stand up and say something which is not true about Speaker. There is no conditional withdrawal in me as the Leader of the House. He is an adult whom I Parliament. Earlier he said ‘once a word has been respect very much, hence he should not say I just come uttered, it cannot be withdrawn.’ So, that is not a here to throw insults. He should point out whom I have withdrawal Mr Speaker. You cannot say, “I withdraw, insulted because Standing Orders do not allow insults but my word remains.” That is what he is saying. So for in Parliament. someone to be holding a position of Leader of the House and behaving like this, it is not proper. I hope whoever MR MOLALE: I thank you Mr Speaker. We have the was the appointing officer can see that the substantive way we run Parliament and the Setswana way. There leader of the House is also watching. I can see why he is an adage in Setswana which says “once a word has always wants to see what is going on. This is not proper. been uttered, it cannot be retrieved or withdrawn as one would do with a finger,” (“lefoko ga le boe, go HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)... boa monwana,”) but in Parliament we always say, “withdraw,” and then we say it is fine, yet the word MR SPEAKER: Honourable Molale, I think you know would have been uttered. Where will I find your insults from way back that Batswana uttered those words under because they were withdrawn? which context. Let us not mix the perfect Setswana situation with what is happening right now. Withdraw HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)... that…(Inaudible)…

16 Hansard No 200 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker, I withdraw. Mr that, go and tell Batswana that you want to govern so Speaker, in the remaining minutes, I would like to agree that they can reject you like they did. with Honourable Minister Mzwinila that we should not complicate how we understand the Constitution of HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… Botswana. Parliament holds the Executive accountable, MR MOLALE: That is not the procedure, people but there is going to be confusion if now Parliament rejected you so you cannot use Motions like this one wants to be the executive. We passed the law here, to propose things that made them to reject you. Mr regulations were laid in this House, regulations which Speaker, I strongly disapprove this Motion. I do not stated how land boards and land administration are support it at all. going to be administered. If at all there was something that did not appease people who proposed this Motion, MR BOKO (MAHALAPYE EAST): Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you for giving me this opportunity. I also we should be going to the root cause of the problem to want to support the Motion which has been proposed look for the solution instead of glossing over an issue. by Leader of the Opposition (LOO) here in Parliament This Motion is glossing over an issue because someone Honourable Saleshando. somewhere was hoping that he or she was going to be appointed at land board but that did not happen. That is Mr Speaker, if you can pay attention to this Motion, it not a solution. has two parts; I want to start with the second part which explains, “Young people with tertiary qualifications be So, when they utter statements that have been directed to appointed.” I will discuss it in detail. The first point me, the use of words like sycophancy and all that, they says, “Individuals to land boards who were politically are going to say that I am out of order when I call them active in the five years preceding their appointment.” to order. Those words are insensitive. Ever since the Mr Speaker, right now in Botswana, I am speaking as beginning of this week, statements which were uttered a young person and I believe that Honourable Rakgare here shows that people degrade Masisi’s government. and other youth will agree with me that the youth who We cannot just sit back when people utter statements like have qualifications from different tertiary institutions these. Let us focus on issues that affect Batswana and are roaming the streets, they are unemployed. There stop talking about things that do not affect Batswana, are some who graduated from tertiary 10 or 20 years they are obviously not pleased with statements that are uttered here. We are saying that Batswana do not ago but they are not able to find jobs. Mr Speaker, we understand the Motion that is proposed by Honourable believe that this opportunity… Saleshando today and we will not support a Motion that HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. Batswana do not understand, I cited Phitshane-Molopo Sub-Land Board as an example. Inclusivity is our focus. MR BOKO: I will not yield for you. We should have There are valid reason why we should have the youth, used this opportunity to fill these posts with young women, men and elderly people at the land boards. If people who are roaming the streets. They are the ones you have an elderly person at land board who did not who should have filled these positions. Mr Speaker, go to school but is familiar with that area, if he or she you will agree with me that we should have done that has information about people who were allocated plots instead of taking people who were once councillors using the old system; when it is like that, there are not 20 years ago, people who have done something for going to be any conflicts as far as land use is concerned themselves. You have now appointed people who lost because that person will be a land board member who during elections, people who were loyal to the party and knows that land and he or she will assist people who you are now rewarding them for that. It cannot be right are there. A young person will come up with fresh ideas Mr Speaker. We cannot do that. That is extremely wrong to help elders because there is Setswana idiom which when we have the youth… says ‘botlhale jwa phala bo tswa phalaneng,’ meaning that young people can educate elderly people. So that is HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. what inclusivity means. So it is unacceptable to say that MR BOKO: I said that I will not yield for people who they should be dismissed because they were once active do not have manners. in politics. Botswana Democratic Party Government is not going to allow things like that. If you want to do HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)…

Hansard No 200 17 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

MR BOKO: When we have the youth who are saying about the youth who are roaming the streets? unemployed, who we spent a lot of funds on their You should stand and advocate for the youth as a young education only for us to now see that those positions do person and Minister of Youth, Sports and Culture that not suit them. Mr Speaker… you agree with the Motion by Honourable Dumelang Saleshando to fill in the positions with the youth roaming HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. the streets who the majority of them have never worked MR BOKO: Who is asking for clarification? No, I will a day in their life, they have never earned a salary rather not yield for you. Meritocracy; Mr Speaker, as a nation, than appointing people who have earned salaries for we have to promote meritocracy; that people should be years at the Councils. Mr Speaker, we know and you appointed on the basis of merit, not because of how long can agree with me that they were appointed to come and they have served the party or what they have done for it. protect the interests of the Members of the Botswana We should do it on merit, doing so because that person Democratic Party, that is the only reason why you see has capabilities or that they qualify. the majority of them being members of the Botswana Democratic Party. The intention is to continue protecting Mr Speaker, we now see land board posts being filled them as they steal land because all they know is steal… with people who do not qualify to administer land boards and we are going to continue to talk about this issue. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Laughter!)… They have been appointed because they are members MR BOKO: Mr Speaker, my debate was brief, I think of the ruling party. That cannot be right Mr Speaker. We these words… should do away with this spirit of rewarding people who have been loyal to the ruling party. MINISTER OF LAND MANAGEMENT, WATER AND SANITATION SERVICES (MR MZWINILA): Mr Speaker, I think maybe time has come for Botswana Point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker. I think the Democratic Party to explain if they are a government statement he made that all we know this side is to steal of Batswana or if they are the government of members is inappropriate. Those are his words, I heard him say of Botswana Democratic Party (BDP). Earlier on, we that. Thank you. explained that when Honourable Molale was assigned the responsibility to choose councillors, he went on to MR SPEAKER: Honourable Boko, as the Honourable choose all BDP councillors except maybe five to six. Leader of the Opposition said, unfortunately as I am… That cannot be right Mr Speaker, we cannot run a (Inaudible)… here, I hold you to a high degree of country like that. We need to be serious as a country. responsibility because of your background.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. MR BOKO: Indeed Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker. Perhaps the word ‘steal’ offended them but I withdraw MR BOKO: I said I will not yield for people who it and say taking something that is not yours unlawfully. do not have manners. Time has come for Botswana Mr Speaker, I want to conclude. I want to believe that Democratic Party to stop appointing people just to some Members of Parliament who will support the appease them. That cannot be right Mr Speaker, it Botswana Democratic Party have a conscience and should come to an end. That is basically what we are it will allow them to support this good Motion which saying today, that we should think of young people who protects the youth of Botswana. Thank you. have been unemployed for the longest time because Botswana Democratic Party failed to create jobs, it even MR MAJAGA (NATA-GWETA): Thank you Mr failed to state how many jobs it can create for the youth. Speaker. Let me shoot straight to the Motion tabled Now that positions were available, let us give them to by my colleague. I do not agree with the way it was the youth who are roaming the streets. brought, perhaps he could have requested that it is something which could be considered in the future Mr Speaker, I know how it feels like not to find a job rather than seeking to reverse appointments made. Mr for the rest of your life, but some people were fortunate Speaker, law is complex, even the law professionals get enough to be councillors, they have done something for confused. We normally see advocates or lawyers being themselves. So BDP members, Chilly Boy Rakgare, confused by the law although they are experts. My point since you are one of the youth who sometimes think is, let us ensure that land procedures are administered radically when things go well for you, what are we properly and one advice I can give those across the

18 Hansard No 200 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

aisle is that it is straight and fair. I love American that Honourable Rakgare and Honourable Makwinja are Government; if the Democrats win, they implement my friends but they did not vote for me, it was totally their system, if the Republicans win, they implement unfair and it caused conflict in the village. It was later their own system and you will not hear any complaints improved so the Minister had to assess people who are regarding appointments. This practice was abandoned qualified for the post, I think it was fair rather than the because it seems like the Government which won was old system. afraid, but they should have just implemented their own system of hiring. MR BOKO: Clarification. Thank you Honourable Member. I am not sure if you fully comprehend this I am not only talking about this one, I mean even the Motion but let me ask if you agree with those who say it Government’s top posts which I normally say even in is okay for the composition of land boards to be tarnished ministries that things do not go well when we talk about by politicians. Secondly, as a young person, I am not implementation because you have not appointed people sure if you are still a young person but you normally see who if tomorrow you are accused of poor performance youth in your constituency suffering, unemployed, so is you can be able to admit that as well. The current it not time to appoint youth with the right qualifications system we are talking about as Honourable Majaga into those positions and dismiss those who have worked of Nata-Gweta is that we are talking about Batswana for a long time? who do not have land. Regarding who was appointed, using which system to be a land board member, there MR MAJAGA: I fully comprehend this Motion and I is no person in this country who can be a land board was once Land board Chairman who was servicing a member without degree or diploma. Right now even very big region! I personally. I declared many villages if Honourable Mzwinila can extend his database you from settlements to villages. My point is, there is nothing will find that the majority of them, like one was saying wrong with politicians, there is no one who is not a PhD, they have Masters, Diplomas, Certificate, a lot of politician. Just recently, I told one Kgosi somewhere them have passed Cambridge certificate because a lot of that I know that you will never accept even if I can leave people are looking for jobs, majority of Batswana are this earth, I can at least go to heaven because everyone educated. The Government ensured that people access is welcome there… bursary through some years, there is no person who is not educated. Some are furthering their studies. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Laughter!)… MR MAJAGA: What I want to say in short is that for So, the most important thing is that people should be allocated land. That is the issue which as Member of you to testify that a person is a politician or they took Parliament for Nata-Gweta can advocate for, our people five years or what, that one is not an answer, they are have spent 10-20 years without being allocated land. We also people. The youth we are currently advocating were aware that there were no members of land board, it for, a lot of them are political activists, some are in this took a long time for them to be appointed so people now House, we were also appointed at around 26 years and want service. When you read Tribal Land Act Tab 32.02, by then we were politicians and Councillors. We should it explains all the systems of land boards… view this issue holistically and consider that the Minister appointed both youth and the elderly. Honourable HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification my brother. You know very well how we operate, me and you. Members, there are age variations we cannot just ignore. At my office, only youth are appointed as I speak, so I HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Murmurs)… do not have a problem. My problem is that my people at Nata, Sepako and Manxotai should go and be allocated MR MAJAGA: …we know that the previous systems were amended as time went by. In the past, people land. To complain about the system, if the Minister were appointed through elections and it was not a conducted his interviews and made appointments, that good thing for people to be appointed like politicians. one is powers vested on him, in fact, Ministers have The land board system was the worst because the three powers despite that some do not use them. They are candidates had to stand and people will come to you. afraid, so they must stand up like Honourable Mzwinila You could clearly see who was selecting you. I think I and use those powers in this borrowed time, you will see was 23 or 24 when that thing happened, you could see our country going somewhere but if we…

Hansard No 200 19 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member for Nata-Gweta, is, let us cooperate, listen to each other and serve the we will continue after the health break. Let us break nation. No one is perfect, even the bible says so. So Honourable Members in …(Inaudible)…COVID. let us be cooperative and assist each other in terms of developing the country. Let our hearts not be troubled. PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED AT 11:04 A.M. FOR That is my request. This Parliament is already toxic; our APPROXIMATELY 30 MINUTES emotions are all over the place, everyone who takes the PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:35 A.M. floor takes a swipe at someone and it is wrong. We are so angry, so sad and we are shouting. Our emotions are MR MAJAGA: Thank you Mr Speaker. I have been stimulated. So I request us to just cool down. highlighting that we must consider every procedure just as they are. Every procedure has some advantages Moving on, I support the Motion by Leader of the and disadvantages. So we have to consider the bigger Opposition. I support it with these reasons… picture, what its intentions are. The Minister made some HONOURABLE MEMBER: Tell them! efforts and we know that we were also pushing because land has to be given to people. This is the time when MR LESASO: The Minister stressed that Parliament the appointment of land board officers was frozen as has given him some powers to perform his duties, even they claimed that they were processing some things. so, we have to gauge him looking at three things. Yes, he So they are appointed and they have to allocate plots claims that he is accountable and taking responsibility to Batswana. If we bring a Motion like that of Leader as an accountable officer and we accept that. of the Opposition which states that it was not properly done, another member will bring yet another Motion The second thing is fairness; was he impartial in which talks about something which is in line with that. executing his duties as an Accounting Officer? We have The truth is; we are Leaders in this House, we have to to find out if he was really doing this job without being advise accordingly if we have something like this which partisan. Treatment; we have to find out whether he was seems to have unnecessary barriers. impartial in deciding on those who were appointed?

The Minister has done his job. I could support you if Thirdly; whether it was done transparently. Is there you suggested to increase their three years tenure to four anyone who can attest to the fact that it was done or five years. I am saying this because this thing delays transparently during that time. That is what I want us the proceedings of land boards, they will then spend a to assess. Leader of the Opposition wants to ensure year without allocating land. So clearly, it is not yet time that we do away with politics when dealing with these to bring this Motion to this House. We could have at things. Those are the questions that we have. Moreover, least shared ideas as we are aware that we have a high we are not the only ones who are querying, it is also number of youth. They are surely going to find jobs just bothering you as members of the BDP. Some of your as we usually talk about employment creation. Not only fellowmen from your Constituencies believe they were that, but we also have to come up with ideas concerning not considered simply because they are not pleased how we intend to create them. We have appointed new with some of you, because of lack of transparency and land board officers, new from the box, so they have fairness. So these are some of the things which we are to go and give people plots. They have to perform pointing out. That is not our major concern, we are their duties without being partisan like Members of questioning if we are going to continue with this rate Parliament when they arrive at a Kgotla, they never say of unemployed youth in Botswana. I highlighted that partisan things. They give speeches bearing in mind that we currently have more than 100 000 youths. We get they are representing the nation of Botswana in their more than 15 000 to 20 000 who graduate from tertiary Constituencies. institutions every year, those who are unemployed. On the other hand, we still have people who retire because MR LESASO (SHOSHONG): Thank you Mr Speaker. of old age, those who usually get their jobs back while Members of Parliament, let me start by reminding you we set our youth aside. Yes, he mentioned that the that you are in Parliament. Let us cooperate. I urge you statistics say 94 but we also have a number that… he to control your emotions because the nation sent us gave us a number of land board officials who were here. The nation is watching us, they see how we are appointed, but we also have a ratio of those who have quarrelling and responding to one another. My request retired from work and they have been appointed. That

20 Hansard No 200 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

is why we are stressing that we should give our youth look at this nation and make sure that it is developing for the opportunity and the responsibility. They have done our people and our youth to move forward so that they it before. They have done it in different countries. They can drive it forward. We are approaching 55 years, so are running countries in many places. Other countries the youth should take this country and move it forward. have 30 something or 40 Prime Ministers. So I support That is the request I present before you. Thank you. the Leader of the Opposition that we should do away with politics when it comes to land related issues. Let MR REGOENG (MOLEPOLOLE NORTH): Thank us appoint the youth at land boards so that they manage you Mr Speaker for giving me the opportunity to land allocation issues. These are people who understand comment on the Motion tabled before us. the challenges that the youth are facing especially that I rise to indicate that I have reservations to support this we are concerned that they are selling their plots. We Motion, the reason being that, at the beginning it talks are complaining that we give our youth some plots and about being politically active. It does not clearly define a they sell them. They are the ones who understand these politically active person. I am saying this because in our things because they happen before their eyes. So, they current lives, as we are from different constituencies, will be able to address them accordingly if we appoint the majority of people are politically active so it will them at land board. That is... depend on what extent are you active. So here it does MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND not explain the political activism it is referring to. HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR KGAFELA): Secondly, it talked about youth and their qualifications. Point of clarification. Thank you Honourable. My I think this process is regulated by the Land Boards question is, which age do you think qualifies one to be Act. If there was anything which indicates that the regarded as a youth? Kindly explain which age bracket Land Board Act has been overlooked perhaps I can then you are referring to? consider supporting it but there is nothing indicating MR LESASO: I am referring to age 26 to 40 just like such. So to stand here and say those appointed should he said. Most of them are the interns. They are ignored be dismissed and we appoint new people I think is as soon as their internship expires claiming that they are completely unlawful. This is what is going to make it now grown-ups, but they have nothing to do. Those are difficult. the people that we should be considering and appointing. On the issue of the youth; I agree that that should be the Consider a child who grew up in an underprivileged case and I strongly believe that was done. The Minister background but the parent has so much hope that in was explaining that 94 are youth. There should be a clear future the child is going to work and provide for them. definition of what we mean by the youth. Let us assume Majority of us here, myself included can look back and that 36 years and below refers to the youth. I will give see how far we have come and where we see ourselves you an example, at my constituency of Molepolole, the because the Government gave us an opportunity to grow Sub Land Board comprising of six members, all of them and develop ourselves so that we reach where we are. except one are below 35years of age; they differ in age. Chief Executive Officers (CEOs) we see around are I think they are youth, it is fine except one. The main boasting about their backgrounds. I remember one time Land Board where they were selected from, half of them Dr Matsheka saying he grew up at Peleng. Just look at are below 35 years of age. So, you are going to find that him now, he went all the way to become a doctor, he indeed in this composition, the youth are indeed there. went all the way to lead a big organization and now a Minister of Finance. However our children who grew Qualifications; advert clearly stipulates the applicants up in disadvantaged backgrounds, we exclude them and and the qualifications required, so maybe the still close every gap they can get to go all the way to qualifications should have been raised higher or lower the top. That is my request that, let us take our children then it could be understandable. However there were and see how far they can soar. A child growing up in left as they are because there were in the public domain, a disadvantaged background who studies hard but still everyone could see that the advert required Form 5 and ends up in poverty; the old woman and old man are higher. going to die trying to help their child. I gave an example about my constituency, those who That is why I am imploring that we set aside our are appointed there, none of them have a qualification differences and emotions, let us stop arguing. Let us below Form 5, it is Form 5 and higher. So I have a

Hansard No 200 21 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

problem with the accusation that we disobeyed the law the other side saying it is altogether unlawful, but I do or the Minister is said to have disobeyed the law such not know the basis upon their saying it is unlawful for that you even want those appointed to be dismissed and a political consideration. I am not saying Mr Speaker new people appointed. I think currently… that there has been political consideration. All I am saying is that, there is nothing unlawful in a political MR SALESHANDO: Elucidation. I can assist consideration playing a role in appointments. Of course, to explain to you on the part where the law was there can be everything wrong if there is a political contravened. I explained that when applications were consideration in the removal of somebody from office. advertised for people to apply, the condition was that, people should not apply if they are politically active. I am saying this because I know these cases have been After people had lost the elections, the Minister changed prosecuted, but not in Botswana, they were prosecuted the condition. I am sure you will also admit that, there in South Africa. When the Constitution of South is a problem if you are told to apply and then after that, Africa was established in 1996, sections about who the existing conditions are changed. You cannot say that the President can appoint, where they can appoint that is good procedure. person, what he can do with the Public Protector, were there. Before that Constitution was verified, it had to be MR REGOENG: I hear you Leader of Opposition. taken to the Constitutional Court, and it was reviewed to I was saying since it was advertised, if it was dealt see if the laws complies with constitutionalism. These with that time, perhaps that is when we can heed your cases were prosecuted, arguments were presented and argument. Currently we cannot just dismiss people they were dismissed by the South African Constitutional when they are supposed to start work and appoint others. Court saying no, people can be voted or assigned and be Which caliber of people are going to be appointed? appointed to public office, and political consideration Mr Speaker, I think we should tread carefully when is not unlawful, what is unlawful is that, it plays a role discussing this issue. When they were appointed as the when they are now removed from office. That is why Minister explained, they are all going to serve the nation I am saying, I am uneasy Mr Speaker when I hear the regardless of their belief or political affiliation. What we Leader of the Opposition say it is unlawful and altogether should be discussing is ensuring that they are not biased. wrong. Maybe from a political science point of view it That is the most important thing. could be, but when we look at it in terms of correctness The other important thing is whether they execute or whether the law allows it or not, it is straight-forward their duties properly and allocate land lawfully with no that is not altogether wrong. This discrimination that is favouritism. That is the issue which should be our main being requested, I spoke to Honourable Minister and concern. Currently, if in all Government ministries we explained to him that no, this kind of discrimination, try to find out which party a person belongs to, then we whereby you discriminate people because you want to are going to have a problem because we know how some appoint to office, the Constitution allows it. Obviously employees in the public service think. It is not like one we have Section 15 which states that no one is supposed can be dismissed because of their party affiliation, the to be discriminated, but it also allows discrimination most important thing is to produce results. Mr Speaker, to be practiced when looking at the qualifications of that is why I rise to say I honestly do not support this appointment to public authority. That is why I am saying, Motion. Thank you. both sides are correct, you can discriminate for purposes of determining qualifications for appointment to public MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND office. If there is anyone who opposes discrimination HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR KGAFELA): they can look at Section 15 Sub-section 5, it clearly states Thank you Mr Speaker. I have heard arguments from that you can discriminate. When I ask the Honourable both sides of the aisle. Let me explain that, if the Motion Minister how it went, I hear him explain that most of by Honourable Leader of the Opposition was brought the people who were voted, more than 300 people are perhaps before people were selected or appointed it to be appointed but he explained that there is a process, will be an appropriate Motion Mr Speaker, there is these people were brought by the Selection Committee. nothing unlawful to request that there should be some 15 of them are assigned and then he chooses from them. conditions that regulate appointment of people to public I clearly understand that more than 300 are from the 15 authority. There is nothing unlawful either in a political that are brought by the Selection Committee. Selection consideration when appointments are made. I do hear Committee is made up of the Commissioner, Council

22 Hansard No 200 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

Secretary, Land Board Secretary, Kgosi and one person MR TSHERE: Clarification. Thank you Honourable who is appointed by the Honourable Minister. These Speaker and thank you very much Honourable Kgafela. people make a shortlist of 15 people, and Honourable I want to clearly understand you Honourable Kgafela, I Minister chooses amongst them. I understand very well understand that you understand law, but I do not think that in excess of the 300 are those who were appointed that you understand the trance law that you are talking through that process and about 17 of them, since the law about; distorted laws. So, advertisement of the post allows the Minister to have the power to include some states that you should not be politically active and then people who are not on that list, I hear that there are about when you pick, you pick politically active people like 17 people who were appointed this way. As I assess that, how you picked the Regional Secretary of Botswana I do not think we have any bigger problems if that is how Democratic Party (BDP) at Mahalapye. Thank you. they were appointed, if in excess of 300 are those who MR KGAFELA: What I understand very well is that, were appointed by the Selection Committee and only this part that says not to be actively involved in party about 17 of the appointments are by the Honourable politics, I did not hear well whether it was removed Minister. but, it was there in the regulations. When you look at the regulations very well, qualification is something that Just like I explained that when we talk about qualification must be subject to ascertainment with certainty. The to appointment, what is appropriate is that when the qualification that is mentioned here is that, you should subsidiary legislation like regulations have been set up, be a citizen, that is ascertainable with certainty, you they communicate with the public Mr Speaker, so that should be 26 years up to 70, the Selection Committee they know what the requirements are, and state where can determine that without any difficulty, hold at least a there are no requirements. Firstly these regulations Junior Certificate (JC); they can determine that without state that one has to be between 26 and 70 of age. If difficulty, these are not things that require a discretion we decrease this age requirement, we will have to first or an assessment. They also state that you have to be amend the regulation, we have to request for it to be residing within the area where you are applying for amended because people, even those who are over 40 appointment, that can be ascertainable with ease that years old have hope that when the land boards advertise, you reside there. even though they are 50 or 60 years of age, they qualify because the regulation they saw states that 26 to 70... The last reason I heard the Minister say he removed is the one that says, not be actively involved in party politics; I HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. understand why he removed it because you cannot give MR KGAFELA: The other one that I understand, I that obligation to a Selection Committee that, they must make a thorough assessment. It is a difficult assessment heard the Honourable Leader of the Opposition say that to make that are you actively involved in politics, and it should only be people with tertiary education. When that is why I think it was fair for him to remove it. You we look at the things that will help someone to qualify, cannot give the five people I have just mentioned the it states that the minimum is secondary school Junior obligation to make this assessment which involves Certificate, so people who hold those qualifications value judgment of whether you are involved in politics know that they qualify. We cannot make them aware of or not. The fact that you then express an opinion and the regulations, and now say why we cannot amend those you are vociferous about the opinion, does it make regulations, by way of a resolution alone and say people you politically active, these are the issues. With those should be not be appointed, they have already acquired reasons, really it is impossible and I oppose the Motion the right to qualify. It can be problematic, that is why I with respect Mr Speaker. am saying, Honourable Leader of the Opposition it may MINISTER OF YOUTH EMPOWERMENT, be difficult for us. I do not believe a lot that even the SPORT AND CULTURE DEVELOPMENT (MR Honourable Minister can have the powers to implement RAKGARE): Thank you very much Mr Speaker. This that resolution if it may be adopted... issue is important Mr Speaker, and this is because it is HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. true that, what the Leader of the Opposition and other Members of Parliament said that, the youth should MR KGAFELA: Where is the clarification coming have jobs. It is really a straightforward issue because from? I will yield. the challenges faced by the youth in Botswana are

Hansard No 200 23 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

immeasurable. We know, we can see and I do not even applying and so forth will take time. The question is, think it is an issue of political affiliation, the issue when we do this, taking things aback, where would is that this country belongs to us like you have been Batswana who have applied for land be? saying, these are our youths, they are our brothers and sisters, they are our peers and they deserve to be offered Mr Speaker, what are the duties of those who would employment as it is our intention. Mr Speaker, what be in the boards? The other thing which they are doing maybe we should be focusing on is the issue of who is receiving applications for business and residential qualifies to be part of these boards, without looking at plots. Their other duty is to consider issues of transfers the quota because right now it has already been done; of land. Batswana transfer land among themselves and why can we not look at the existing policy so that we as we know, you will discover that places like where could maybe try to modify it? The boards that are I am coming from in Mogoditshane…I explained here existing right now will complete their mandates in 2023 yesterday that there is a challenge with land and land and the youth would still be suffering. It is true. The allocation more than anywhere in Botswana. The reason important thing is that, we should maybe look at this is that, people who have submitted applications to policy and start from there going forward. We should transfer land are so many. The question now is, if we have a Clause that shows that when appointing these are going to reverse a decision which was taken by the boards everywhere, at least 50 per cent of the members Ministry of Lands, are we saying the many applications there should be youth, and women should be included that have been made by Batswana, that huge pile in as well. That is what we could be considering at the Mogoditshane Sub-Land Board and other and boards moment. should be suspended; should we halt the transfer of those who are about to build and those exchanging I am saying this Mr Speaker, because reversing decisions fields wanting to plough so as to produce food for that have already been taken is not going to be easy. Botswana until next year just because we want to make Let us consider the fact that, the past boards finished new appointments? Mr Speaker I do not believe this can their work in March 2020. Between March 2020 and serve us very well. September, nothing was happening. Let us look at the Also… duties for those who have been given the responsibility to serve in boards, what they entail. Let us consider… HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of clarification. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. MR RAKGARE: …we should not… MR RAKGARE: …the existing issues in land boards, the burning issues which the members are grappling MR SALESHANDO: On a point of clarification. I with… would like to briefly clarify this one; we are not saying everyone who has been appointed should be removed, ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH AND we are saying those who were appointed yet they were WELLNESS (MR LELATISITSWE): On a point of active in politics. If you believe that removing them elucidation. Thank you so much Rakgare for giving me is going to take time, there are already applications this chance. Considering the next Motion by Honourable of people who were interviewed and they passed the Reatile that reads, “that this Honourable House resolves interview so, we can appoint from those who passed as a matter of urgency to request Government to try to the interview, who are youth and have been to school. fast track the allocation of plots,” and then you look at This is not something that can even take two months. this one. Do you not think we are wasting time such that we could have gone to the second Motion, which has to MR RAKGARE: Mr Speaker, this issue brings me to a do with allocation of land in this country? point that I had no intension of saying. Since the Leader of the Opposition had stood up, I think the way he put MR RAKGARE: I hear you Honourable Member, I it, there must be people he has in mind and most of agree with you. I believe this can end up causing us to these people are elderly. As he said earlier talking about regress because between March 2020 and September 70 years and so forth, but yesterday he was saying the 2020, see how many months it has been which the elderly should pave a way for the youth in offices, so that Ministry of Land Management, Water and Sanitation they would be able to gain experience. Issues of land are Services took before making appointments. Issues of very sensitive; we cannot have our boards comprising

24 Hansard No 200 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

the youth only. There has to be an amendment, you need So he is saying at the constituency office which is a the elderly and the youth, experience and energy. That public… is why I am talking about the issue of 50 per cent that, if we could amend the policy and make sure that at least HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. 50 per cent is the youth because we also need those with MR RAKGARE: …office, the elderly people who experience in the administration of various Government are… procedures, which they have done before. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. MR RAKGARE: …politicians should be engaged MR RAKGARE: I would like to conclude Mr because all of them belong to his party. Now when he Speaker…Although I do not have much time, be quick comes this side he says, “When you appoint people Honourable Member. Honourable Mzwinila, you should not do things this MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, NATURAL way, do as I wish; involve everyone,” yet he has put RESOURCES CONSERVATION AND TOURISM only those from his party. That is hypocrisy of the (MS KERENG): On a point of elucidation. Let me be highest order, and Batswana have to see that we have a quick since you are the Minister of Youth. You have been serious challenge. The important… told that since you are the Minister of Youth you should HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order Mr consider them and when there are job opportunities they Speaker. should be absorbed in large numbers. Although we want the youth to be employed, and be given opportunities, MR RAKGARE: …thing is that… you are saying this job requires certain skills; it is not HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. about saying the elderly should make way for the youth because they have long worked hence the youth should MR SPEAKER: What is your point of order Honourable come in too and benefit. It is not about benefiting. I Moswaane? just wanted you to reiterate this one that, some of these jobs come with certain levels of responsibility and MR MOSWAANE: Point of order. The Honourable accountability. Minister is saying Honourable Keorapetse is a hypocrite because he has employed older people at his MR RAKGARE: I thank you Honourable Kereng. office. My question is, does he have the evidence to What you are saying is true. substantiate what he is saying? If that is not the case, he I would like to conclude with this point, which I can should withdraw that statement. If he can furnish this see might lead to confusion; let us not forget that we Parliament with evidence, he can go ahead and say what are talking about national positions, just like those at he is saying. Thank you. our constituency offices, they are national offices. I do HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further procedure. not think it is right for people to stand here…as you heard what Honourable Keorapetse was saying. Earlier MR SPEAKER: Do you not want this matter to end? I was trying to catch your eye Mr Speaker and I was MR KAPINGA (OKAVANGO): I thank you Mr disappointed because he was not here, and right now I Speaker. I just wanted to comment a bit on this issue. am on the floor after two hours of struggling, and he is You know despite the truth being right in front of us, we still not here. I had hoped to say these words to him if can go around it, banging ourselves on the ground and he were here. I know that Honourable Cater Hikuama doing whatever. can call him from outside, so that he can hear what I have to say; so that the words do not go to waste. Even I spent many years as a public prosecutor. We had those Honourable Boko can call him because he is still young. who were accused, and in prison, they called them dibhonda or recidivist offenders. My issue is this Mr Speaker, at Honourable Keorapetse’s constituency office in Selebi Phikwe West, he has You could gather all the evidence to prove your case engaged senior citizens, the Senior Administration beyond reasonable doubt. When they get to court and Officer is an elderly person, even other officers are then charges are read to them and they are asked to elderly. He has only engaged the youth for security. take a plea, they plead not guilty and that is basically

Hansard No 200 25 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

what the Minister of the country is doing. Honourable MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Ambassador Kapinga, Mzwinila, the truth is that you appointed Botswana maybe you should clarify it so that you proceed. Democratic Party (BDP) members who were active Clarify that, the person who has been appointed at that during 2019 campaigns, and it is well known. You constituency is a member of BDP instead of saying that appointed Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) members the Minister deliberately appointed him because he is a at Shakawe. One of them is the chairperson of sub-land member of BDP. Do you see the difference? board while the other one is the deputy chairperson. The person whom you appointed as the chairperson used to HONOURABLE MEMBER: He knew. insult me every day during campaigns and you knew HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… about that. Right now… MR KAPINGA: Thank you Mr Speaker. That is HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. exactly what I am saying, that you have appointed a MR KAPINGA: Hold it Honourable Minister. member of BDP, whether you know it or you do not know, that is another issue. It is up to you to disclose HONOURABLE MEMBER: No! whether you know him or not. I take your word that you do not know him, but your neighbour there said that the MR KAPINGA: …(Laughter!)… first appointment was full of UDC members hence you MR KAPINGA: Let me explain. realised posts were full of members of the Opposition. I am wondering how you noticed that they are members MR SPEAKER: Point of order, freeze the clock. of Opposition and then fail to realise that those whom you have appointed are members of BDP. MINISTER OF LAND MANAGEMENT, WATER AND SANITATION SERVICES (MR MZWINILA): MR MZWINILA: Point of order. Thank you Mr Point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker. The Honourable Speaker. Honourable Molale said he suspects that I had Member should debate and stop involving me on issues made that realization. He did not say I realise that or that of his constituency. I do not know who insulted him or I was realising that. I am also saying that he is imputing who was campaigning for him. I plead that he should improper motives on me. He is completely out of order. withdraw that statement. Thank you. Thank you.

MR KAPINGA: Mr Speaker, I will not withdraw MR KAPINGA: Honourable Molale is the one who is anything because the truth is that he appointed Botswana imputing improper motives on you. Ask him what made Democratic Party (BDP) members, unless you are not him suspect that you realised that those people were the one who appointed him, maybe he was appointed by members of Opposition? Ask him… somebody else, not you. If the chairperson of Shakawe Land Board was appointed by you as the Minister, then HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… I cannot withdraw anything. Earlier on, the person who MR KAPINGA: Ask him, not me. The issue that needs is sitting next to you made a statement that he suspects to be addressed without hesitating, without blinking an you realised that those you appointed first appointment eye is that, appointments which were made are corrupt consisted of people who… because they were based on political consideration. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. We have to talk about this issue. We also have to state what causes it; when a party stays for a long time in MR KAPINGA: What are you saying? governance, stubbornness arises from long incumbency. That is what you are indicating, that you appoint people MR MZWINILA: Point of order. Thank you Mr and then come to Parliament to deny the fact that you Speaker. The Honourable Member should withdraw that knew that they are BDP members because you know statement, I never appointed any BDP member. Maybe that no one can do anything about it. he knows, but I do not know because when we received job applications, we did not ask applicants whether MR LUCAS: Elucidation. Thank you Mr Speaker. The they are Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) members point that you are raising is straight forward because or members of the Umbrella for Democratic Change Honourable Mzwinila is stubbornly denying the truth (UDC). I do not have that evidence. Thank you. that is there. At our respective constituencies, take

26 Hansard No 200 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

Bobirwa for instance, for you to be appointed a land HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… board member, you have to be one of the people who lost during BDP primary elections or a BDP member MR MZWINILA: Point of order. The Honourable who lost during General Elections. You are saying Member is continuing to be out of order. The that those people are not members of BDP, because Honourable Member is saying that first advertisements some represented BDP during General Elections at were cancelled because of corruption. Moletemane and Mabumahibidu, are you still saying HONOURABLE MEMBER: You said so. that they are not members of BDP? No, you are being stubborn. You are just using your ministerial position. MR MZWINILA: No! I never said so, he is the one who is saying so. He must bring the evidence to prove HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… that they were cancelled because of corruption.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… MR KAPINGA: Sir, I listen to Radio Botswana. Radio MR KAPINGA: When we were growing up at Botswana aired that first appointments were cancelled Mahalapye, there is a game that we used to play and because there was corruption. So I am saying that we would chant “mmampodulele, mmampodulele ga ke when I finish here, you should rise and tell us about the bonebone.” And by this we were saying that we cannot corruption that your ministry discovered. What kind of see. I notice that, that is exactly what BDP is doing, corruption was it? it is as if you are playing that game. These things are HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… obvious, everyone can see that they are not fair, that they are not right. You cannot fill land boards with members MR KAPINGA: Update the nation. Today I am saying of BDP even though you know that we want to build a this straight to your face, I am bluntly telling you that the non-partisan public service. You cannot compare land corruption that everyone is seeing is that you filled land board with the constituency office at Okavango. That boards with members of BDP. I Honourable Kapinga, office was created for me as a Member of Parliament. request that you should go and dismiss all BDP members Land board was not created for BDP, it was created for who you have appointed all over the land boards and the Republic of Botswana. appoint people who are capable on the principle of meritocracy, appoint people who are capable, people HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… who have skills, experience and attitude. Attitude does not include the fact that, one is a member of BDP, it MR KAPINGA: You must understand that difference. includes the fact that you are well informed about issues It was not created for BDP, it was created for the of the country. You were irresponsible. What you did is nation of Botswana. Shakawe Sub-Land Board was not absolute corruption that can even be noticed by a blind created for BDP, it was created for people of Shakawe, person. You should go back and rectify this situation. regardless of their political affiliation… Otherwise you are getting this country in trouble. Thank HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. you Mr Speaker.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR MOLAO): Thank you Mr Speaker. Firstly let me MR KAPINGA: You now go there and fill land boards indicate that I do not agree with this Motion. This with members of BDP as if it is going to serve BDP Motion is partisan, discriminatory and very emotional. members. That shows irresponsibility, unprincipled It was not really thought of. Honourable Kapinga behaviour and corruption. It shows signs of a lost has been talking here about members of Domkrag government, the government who no longer considers (Botswana Democratic Party), this Motion does not say the feelings of people. You cancelled the first interviews anything about members of Domkrag, it says politically because you said that there was corruption. You did not active for five years. My straight-forward point is that, inform the nation about corruption that took place. I am when someone is said to be politically active, how do challenging you right now to stand up and… we define activism? Are we saying even in this House, Yandani Boko for example, cannot decide today to quit HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. politics, Parliament, are we saying we must freeze him MR KAPINGA: After I am done. for five years and bar him from getting into any public

Hansard No 200 27 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

office because he was once a Member of Parliament, MR LUCAS: Point of order. I think that Honourable is that what we are saying? That is very wrong and Molao is misleading Parliament, and he is deliberately discriminatory. We cannot do that as Parliament. being in contrast with the Motion. The issue that is being said here is that, there should be a qualification when a This Motion talks about young people with tertiary person is applying for land board. So the qualification education. It presupposes a young person who that was used by Honourable Mzwinila as an example completed their studies with a Form 2 certificate and that, for someone to be appointed as a landboard doing other jobs out there, is not able to be appointed Member they should be a Botswana Democratic Party in land boards he is incompetent. He or she should be (BDP) drop-out, is the one that we disagree with. disregarded. When he or she applies for land board he or she should be disregarded because he does not have MR SPEAKER: But what is the point of order? tertiary qualification. MR LUCAS: It is that he is misleading the nation. It presupposes that a young person who went up to Form 5, but hustling is incompetent, and should be disregarded MR SPEAKER: Honourable Lucas, there is absolutely because they do not have a tertiary education. no point of order in what you are saying. None.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. MR MOLAO: The reason we have social workers who do not assist the nation properly is because they are MR MOLAO: It presupposes that a young person from products of Honourable Lucas. Maun Brigade or Shakawe Brigade is incompetent, should be disregarded because they do not have a HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… tertiary qualification. We cannot really be serious here MR MOLAO: The issue we are saying here is that, we in this Parliament and say that category of people are are talking about the youth. The constituency office, incompetent, and should not come anywhere near land Honourable Kapinga was not created for you, it is a boards. public office. Those people are paid with public funds, Compare Mr Speaker, Parliament and land board. not your money. You cannot stand here and say, “that When you look at this Parliament, there are many office was created for me, it is mine, and the land board Members without tertiary qualification. We fail to stand office is for the public.” That is a public office, unless here and pass the Motion that request that for one to the people that you assist at your office come with their be a Member of Parliament they should have tertiary memberships and they are screened first to see if their education but we want to apply that principle to membership is for Botswana Congress Party (BCP), others and exclude ourselves by saying, those who are which is corrupt. Corruption that you are talking about appointed in Parliament and have no tertiary education, is what you are doing at your office. are competent and can approve laws that govern this At my office as I am speaking, I have hired the youth. country whereas land board Members are incompetent The oldest person at my office is 48 years, she is a and they are disregarded. We cannot think like that as cleaner. The rest is 42, 44 and 32. Yandani Boko, you leaders. We cannot. have employed an elderly person who has been self- What are we implying? Are we saying the multitudes employed for a long time, were there no youths at out there who have completed Form 2, Form 5 and Mahalapye East... those from brigades are incompetent, they cannot read a HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. land board document on land allocation, and the manner in which it will be allocated. That is very hard for them MR MOLAO: …who can run the constituency office? that they are not even supposed to come anywhere near What I am saying is that, this Motion is ill-conceived land board. Is this what we are saying as Parliament and emotional. When we said political active, we were of Botswana? No, we cannot. We cannot agree and not referring to members of the BDP. So people stand try to use the youth as an excuse. Young people who here and say, “members of Domkrag this and that…” did Junior Certificate (JC) and Form 5 are the youth. We cannot approve a law that discriminates people. If The youth who did vocational education because it is I want to take a decision today that I want to end my not tertiary education, they are the youth. Why are we political... discriminating against them?

28 Hansard No 200 Friday 13th November, 2020 REVERSAL OF APPOINTMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN THE FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THEIR APPOINTMENT TO LAND BOARDS: Motion

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order Mr Speaker.

MR MOLAO: You cannot say clarification, and then change and say point of order. You cannot.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order.

MR MOLAO: You cannot do that. It is not allowed. So as we are in this Parliament, it is a shame that we say we want to make... people have already been employed and they have rights. So are you saying we should stand in this Parliament and pass a Motion that withdraws the rights of people who have already been employed. They have rights even to go to court and sue.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order.

MR MOLAO: It has never happened like that Honourable Saleshando. It cannot work like that. If we want to change something, we can change it for the future, we cannot reverse at this point. So, if someone stands in this Parliament and says that the qualification for one to be a Member of Parliament should be a PhD, that a law should be passed to reverse, and all of us be dismissed to allow those with PhDs to take over, will that be implementable? It cannot. You cannot do such a thing. When you come here angry, it is because...

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

ACTING LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR MOLALE): Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I move that this House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 12:34 p.m. until Monday 16th November, 2020 at 2:00 p.m.

Hansard No 200 29 HANSARD RECORDERS Mr. T. Gaodumelwe, Mr T. Monakwe, Ms T. D. Kebonang HANSARD REPORTERS Mr M. Buti, Ms Z. Molemi, Mr J. Samunzala, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms D. Thibedi, Ms G. Baotsi, Ms N. Mokoka

HANSARD EDITORS Ms K. Nyanga, Ms C. Chonga, Mr K. Goeme, Ms G. Phatedi, Ms B. Malokwane, Mr A. Mokopakgosi, Ms O. Nkatswe, Ms G. Lekopanye, Ms T. Mokhure, Ms B. Ratshipa, Ms M. Madubeko HANSARD TRANSLATORS Ms B. Ntisetsang, Ms M. Sekao, Ms B. Mosinyi, Ms V. Nkwane, Ms N. Kerobale, Ms K. Motswakhumo, Ms T. Motsau, Ms O. Phesodi, Mr K. Setswe

LAYOUT DESIGNERS Mr B. B. Khumanego, Mr D. T. Batshegi, Mr K. Rebaisakae

30 Hansard No 200