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Parliamentary Debates House of Commons Official Report General Committees PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT GENERAL COMMITTEES Public Bill Committee CRIME AND COURTS BILL [LORDS] Eleventh Sitting Thursday 7 February 2013 (Morning) CONTENTS CLAUSE 36 agreed to. SCHEDULE 17 agreed to. CLAUSE 37 agreed to. SCHEDULE 18 agreed to. Programme order amended. Adjourned till Tuesday 12 February at five minutes to Nine o’clock. PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS LONDON – THE STATIONERY OFFICE LIMITED £6·00 PBC (Bill 115) 2012 - 2013 Members who wish to have copies of the Official Report of Proceedings in General Committees sent to them are requested to give notice to that effect at the Vote Office. No proofs can be supplied. Corrigenda slips may be published with Bound Volume editions. Corrigenda that Members suggest should be clearly marked in a copy of the report—not telephoned—and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons, not later than Monday 11 February 2013 STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT WILL GREATLY FACILITATE THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE BOUND VOLUMES OF PROCEEDINGS IN GENERAL COMMITTEES © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 367 Public Bill Committee7 FEBRUARY 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 368 The Committee consisted of the following Members: Chairs: MARTIN CATON,†NADINE DORRIES † Barwell, Gavin (Croydon Central) (Con) † Lopresti, Jack (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con) † Browne, Mr Jeremy (Minister of State, Home † McCabe, Steve (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab) Department) † McDonald, Andy (Middlesbrough) (Lab) † Burrowes, Mr David (Enfield, Southgate) (Con) Paisley, Ian (North Antrim) (DUP) Chapman, Jenny (Darlington) (Lab) † Rutley, David (Macclesfield) (Con) † Creasy, Stella (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op) † Syms, Mr Robert (Poole) (Con) † Elphicke, Charlie (Dover) (Con) † Vara, Mr Shailesh (North West Cambridgeshire) Goggins, Paul (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab) (Con) † Vaz, Valerie (Walsall South) (Lab) † Green, Damian (Minister for Policing and Criminal † Wilson, Phil (Sedgefield) (Lab) Justice) Wright, Simon (Norwich South) (LD) † Hanson, Mr David (Delyn) (Lab) Heald, Oliver (Solicitor-General) Neil Caulfield, John-Paul Flaherty, Committee Clerks † Jones, Andrew (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con) † attended the Committee 369 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 370 We know that the Government have talked about a UK Public Bill Committee border command being part of the new crime agency, but we have yet to see any details on the powers and Thursday 7 February 2013 operational activities. Again, I refer to my own immigration casework—a cross that I bear with great pride for my people in Walthamstow. I have seen instances of UKBA (Morning) officers not acting in an appropriate manner and who have perhaps gone beyond their remit. The clause will bring about a change in the powers, but how they will [NADINE DORRIES in the Chair] work is a question for all of us. The extension of powers under the Regulation of Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] Investigatory Powers Act 2000 and the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 will be new for the officers. I look to members Written evidence to be reported of one half of the coalition Government who I know to the House have extreme concerns about RIPA. I hope that they will share my wish to ensure that it will be clear who is C&C 12 Christopher Valaitis able to operate the powers under what jurisdiction. C&C 15 Home Office supplementary evidence There is silence at the moment. I am sure that later on C&C 16 Home Office supplementary evidence we will hear clarion calls emphasising how important it C&C 17 Home Office supplementary evidence is that RIPA should not be abused. C&C 18 Home Office supplementary evidence The powers are serious. They authorise the use of covert surveillance, intrusive surveillance, and property 11.30 am interference such as wire tapping and installation of listening devices, as well as powers to authorise confiscation, detain cash and undertake money-laundering investigations. Clause 36 There is no detail at present. The Government have talked about providing guidance in due course about POWERS OF IMMIGRATION OFFICERS how criminal and financial investigation teams within the UKBA can operate, but we have not seen any details Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): I beg to yet. If all officers are able to use the RIPA powers, I am move amendment 84, in clause 36, page 34, line 29, after sure many people in both the old and the new coalition ‘2000’, insert ‘who is working in Criminal and Financial might be concerned about how that will play out. Investigation’. Amendment 84 simply seeks to do what the Government say they want to do in the explanatory notes to the Bill. The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss It seeks clarity that the powers will be extended only to amendment 85, in clause 36, page 34, line 41, leave out the subsections (4) and (5). “Criminal and Financial Investigation teams in the UK Border Agency”, Stella Creasy: It is a pleasure, as always, to serve the people with the appropriate experience and expertise under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries, on this bright in using such powers, rather than giving the impression and sunny day. I hope that our debates will be as joyful. that all members of UKBA staff would be able to use such powers. Opposition Members are not opposed to the clause in principle. We have called for UK Border Agency Amendment 85 speaks to concerns about the Proceeds officers to have the powers to deal with illegal immigration. of Crime Act 2002 and how it might be used by UKBA I am disappointed not to see the hon. Member for officers. It seeks to clarify how the Government envisage Dover in his place today. Perhaps he has gone to get a the powers will be used and which officers will be able to new battery for his iPad; I do not know. On Tuesday, he use them, and how that will then influence the UK was very concerned about overstayers and dealing with border command. I hope that the Minister for Policing illegal immigration, as are Opposition Members. and Criminal Justice will clarify what the UK border command will do, where it will operate, who will be The amendments, which are probing, attempt to get responsible for it and how it will be tasked. Obviously, clarity from the Government on how the new powers there is an issue between the UKBA and the National will work and what powers the UKBA customs officers Crime Agency. When the new and very serious powers will have. We certainly recognise that it is a challenge for are extended to customs officers, we need to have confidence officers who turn up at premises and identify an overstayer that the powers will be used in an appropriate manner who is here illegally, when they have no ability to deal in support of tackling illegal immigration, which we all with the issue and have to call on other assistance to be want to see dealt with. We do not want to see any able to resolve the matter. However, the Government misappropriation of powers. I look forward to the have not yet set out the exact powers that the officers Minister’s response. will have and precisely how such powers will be used. I am sure the Minister will agree that we would like all officers to uphold the law and exercise it with judicious The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian expertise. Green): Welcome back, Ms Dorries, to the fun and The amendments speak to the specific powers that frolic of the Committee. I am grateful to the hon. the Bill extends to immigration officers and are designed Member for Walthamstow for the tone of her speech to test how the Government see the powers being used. and, in particular, for her general support for the purpose 371 Public Bill Committee7 FEBRUARY 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 372 of clause 36. The amendments would limit or remove feel that an explicit provision in primary legislation is the extension of immigration officers’ powers conferred necessary. Looking across the piece at the UKBA, we by the clause. Amendment 84 would require the authorising do not have that degree of specificity for customs officials, officer, who is responsible for authorising applications who currently have such powers. The aim is to provide to interfere with property under section 93 of the Police parity between customs and immigration officers. Act 1997, to be In practice, due to the existing safeguards in RIPA “an immigration officer who is a senior official” and the Police Act 1997 only specifically trained immigration in the Home Office who is also officers would be able to exercise the powers in clause “working in Criminal and Financial Investigation” 36. Section 32 of RIPA outlines that for a senior authorising officer to grant authorisation for the carrying out of at the UK Border Agency. intrusive surveillance, they must ensure that the activity I appreciate that the hon. Lady’s intention is ensure that is “proportionate” and that it is necessary access to the powers is limited to immigration officers “in the interests of national security; for the purpose of preventing who work in the immigration criminal and financial or detecting crime” investigation teams, but the amendment would actually and broaden the range of persons who are permitted to authorise interference with property, which would lessen “in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom”. the safeguards by potentially lowering the grade of the The Police Act also imposes strict controls over the authorising officer.
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